# Canon EOS R6 Mark II – Here are some more specifications



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 12, 2022)

> Yesterday we reported the first sure-fire specifications for the upcoming Canon EOS R6 Mark II. A few more specifications have made it to us, and we see some ‘first-time’ features we do believe.
> Canon EOS R6 Mark II Specifications (New information in bold)
> 
> 24mp Full-frame CMOS Sensor
> ...



Continue reading...


----------



## Foxeslink (Oct 12, 2022)

just to clarify, in what this R6 II is better to R6 ? R6 has no crop in 4k60 right ?


----------



## WilliamJ (Oct 12, 2022)

Foxeslink said:


> just to clarify, in what this R6 II is better to R6 ? R6 has no crop in 4k60 right ?


Exactly, I’m not sure I’d be giving up FF 4k 60 for the sake of 24mp vs 20. Perhaps if there was no record limit like the R7 got I might be persuaded…


----------



## Maximilian (Oct 12, 2022)

[CR3] here makes the rumoured R8 specs being dead or maybe just another prototype variation of an R6 II.

And the step forward is quite small, as already mentioned.


----------



## dennishensphoto (Oct 12, 2022)

I'm happy to see a new version of the R6, but no idea what to think of this  Maybe form factor of the R5 with the screen on top, better EVF, bigger screen, slight bump in megapixels.... might still be ok, but why not the 30mp sensor then...


----------



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 12, 2022)

dennishensphoto said:


> I'm happy to see a new version of the R6, but no idea what to think of this  Maybe form factor of the R5 with the screen, better EVF, bigger screen, slight bump in megapixels.... might still be ok, but why not the 30mp sensor then...


The 24.1mp BSI sensor already exists (it's the best sensor that Canon has ever made by many metrics), and it's cheaper to use something that you're already producing instead of retooling for something new or continuing to produce something 'old' in the case of the 20.2mp sensor.


----------



## Traveler (Oct 12, 2022)

The only thing I’m missing on the R6 is the top LCD. 
Anything else – I don’t care


----------



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 12, 2022)

Foxeslink said:


> just to clarify, in what this R6 II is better to R6 ? R6 has no crop in 4k60 right ?


The R6 has a 1.1x crop.


----------



## SimonW (Oct 12, 2022)

This is exactly where I'm at. Spec-wise the R6 would be great for me but I know I'm going to really miss that top LCD (Coming off a 5D MkIII). Clicked on this hoping it might be making it on, looks like we're going to be disappointed


----------



## Foxeslink (Oct 12, 2022)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The R6 has a 1.1x crop.



Oh didn't know!
But still, the specs are the same besides the megapixels. Well, we shall wait and see what comes next.
I have an R, and I want to buy a new camera mostly for video(I'll do photography as well), and R6 is a very good choice. No 4k 120 but I can live with that. But I might wait for the final specs of this new R6. I'll make a choice after Christmas


----------



## Traveler (Oct 12, 2022)

SimonW said:


> This is exactly where I'm at. Spec-wise the R6 would be great for me but I know I'm going to really miss that top LCD (Coming off a 5D MkIII). Clicked on this hoping it might be making it on, looks like we're going to be disappointed


People say you’ll get used to it. But after a year using it it’s still frustrating not to have the top LCD. I was seriously thinking of getting back to the R…


----------



## pashevich (Oct 12, 2022)

Foxeslink said:


> Oh didn't know!
> But still, the specs are the same besides the megapixels. Well, we shall wait and see what comes next.
> I have an R, and I want to buy a new camera mostly for video(I'll do photography as well), and R6 is a very good choice. No 4k 120 but I can live with that. But I might wait for the final specs of this new R6. I'll make a choice after Christmas


If new sensor is bsi stacked, then it will be completely different camera. Stop judging cameras using only one characteristic - resolution.


----------



## HMC11 (Oct 12, 2022)

I kept thinking that the R6 II makes sense, although I had expected the specs improvement to be somewhat more substantial than a better sensor with a small gain mpx. However, it might actually be quite attractivei if it has the R3 sensor, notably one of the best around, and that this 'small' improvement means that it will likely be priced similarly to the R6 launch price of $2399.


----------



## pashevich (Oct 12, 2022)

R6 mark1 has the 1Dx Mark3 sensor, top of the line to relise date. It is logical to assume, that R6 Mark2 will have top of the line 24mp bsi stacked sensor from R3.
Wish it will have top lcd and mode dial like R5.

R6M2 has to compete with Sony A9 line, so it needs fast sensor, capable of shooting without mechanical shutter.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Oct 12, 2022)

SimonW said:


> This is exactly where I'm at. Spec-wise the R6 would be great for me but I know I'm going to really miss that top LCD (Coming off a 5D MkIII). Clicked on this hoping it might be making it on, looks like we're going to be disappointed


Having moved from the 7d2 to the r6, I initially thought I would miss the top screen as well but tbh, with the amount of info available in the viewfinder I never feel the need for the top screen anymore.


----------



## pashevich (Oct 12, 2022)

Top lcd is usefull. And the mode dial handier to operate. In addition you can customize any button and dial to switch modes.


----------



## speg (Oct 12, 2022)

As someone about to upgrade from Rp to R6 within the next 6-8 weeks… I have no idea what to do


----------



## XZ32 (Oct 12, 2022)

Hoping to have the Dual Pixel AF II like on the R3/R7. And… the same Off/Photo/Video switch like on the R7. Would be an instant buy!


----------



## BBarn (Oct 12, 2022)

speg said:


> As someone about to upgrade from Rp to R6 within the next 6-8 weeks… I have no idea what to do


Good question. It could easily be 6 months before you can buy an R6Ii. I guess it depends on how badly/soon you need a replacement.


----------



## Maximilian (Oct 12, 2022)

speg said:


> As someone about to upgrade from Rp to R6 within the next 6-8 weeks… I have no idea what to do


Look at the list price of the R6 and think that the Mk II will be at least half a year to a year at this price or even 15% more. 
If it really has the R3 sensor, it might be worth waiting. 
If you struggle with the higher price, go get R6 now. 
From my experience (trying out in shop) the EVF, the AF and the sensor performance of the R6 is much better than your RP.
If you are willing to wait to buy best for higher price, just wait. 
Maybe with more information, the price of the "old" R6 might drop...


----------



## Bob Howland (Oct 12, 2022)

If it's the R6 body with the R3 sensor, then I'm interested.


----------



## aledronix (Oct 12, 2022)

SimonW said:


> This is exactly where I'm at. Spec-wise the R6 would be great for me but I know I'm going to really miss that top LCD (Coming off a 5D MkIII). Clicked on this hoping it might be making it on, looks like we're going to be disappointed


I thought the same thing coming off 6 years with a canon 70D and then 90D both with top lcds that worked great.
That said i have had very few cases where i thought about it while shooting. Since the back display is always on i would be able to see my settings and exposure in most positions


----------



## Chaitanya (Oct 12, 2022)

I thought Canon is going to stick with 3 year cycle for upgrades to these models.


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 12, 2022)

speg said:


> As someone about to upgrade from Rp to R6 within the next 6-8 weeks… I have no idea what to do


Since this is a CR3 rumour, the announcement is likely 6-8 weeks away and the first pre-orders will ship *months* after that. Like others have said, if you want to use your new camera in 60-8 weeks, get the current R6. If you can wait 6-8 months, you might be able to get an R6II. But keep in mind that you'll have to pre-order quickly and be lucky enough to be in the first batch. On top of that, I expect the R6II to be a few hundred $/€ more than the current R6 pricing, which could be spent on spare batteries and larger/faster SD cards instead.


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 12, 2022)

SimonW said:


> This is exactly where I'm at. Spec-wise the R6 would be great for me but I know I'm going to really miss that top LCD (Coming off a 5D MkIII). Clicked on this hoping it might be making it on, looks like we're going to be disappointed


Coming from a 7D, I thought I'd use the top LCD on the R5 a lot. After 2 years, I mainly use it too see if it says 'FULL' when charging batteries, I use the EVF or back LCD to check settings. On the 7D I would look at the top LCD while changing settings before shooting, I don't do that on the R5. For pre-shooting prep I find the touchscreen much faster and easier to use.

When using the M6II I never think "I wish it had a top LCD", mostly because the charging LED doesn't go out like it does on the R5, but it turns green instead


----------



## Joel C (Oct 12, 2022)

I can certainly entertain the idea of a R6 mark II. Sounds like a very slight upgrade, I am wondering if this will fill in with better video performance. Sensor upgrade would likely be worth it for me, but, if the only realistic difference in video is lack of overheating, not sure the price is worth it. Though, if there was zero distortion (no rolling shutter) I might have to sell off my current R6 and switch. The current R6 has been great for images the last 2 years, I have found zero short falls for my work. 
Personal wish is for them to release the follow up to the XC15, with ILC. That would be the dream camera at this point.


----------



## BroderLund (Oct 12, 2022)

If R6 II is getting close, I would assume the R5 II is getting close too. The high end EOS cameras has typically had a four year cycle. This would mean a 2024 release. DIGIC X is also due for an update, which will likely come along the R6II and R5II cameras.


----------



## bbasiaga (Oct 12, 2022)

SimonW said:


> This is exactly where I'm at. Spec-wise the R6 would be great for me but I know I'm going to really miss that top LCD (Coming off a 5D MkIII). Clicked on this hoping it might be making it on, looks like we're going to be disappointed


Its a personal thing for sure, but I don't miss it at all. The ability to see everything in the EVF or on the LCD, and the customization available of all the buttons really has made it obsolete. Now I go back to my 5D3 and get frustrated that its not as easy to change settings via the top LCD as it is via buttons and menus on the R6. I also love the ISO dial. 


speg said:


> As someone about to upgrade from Rp to R6 within the next 6-8 weeks… I have no idea what to do


Buy used or refurbished. Use it for a year and see if the R6II is available by then or not. You could re-sell for a decent percentage of what you paid and put it towards the R62. 

I'm kind of interested to see what that sensor works out to be, and what other features may pop up on it that aren't listed. Very happy with my R6, and version to version upgrades are not always worth it. I've usually skipped one in between upgrades. But that BSI sensor may do it. Thought I may wait and see what the R1 announcement has in store (which may portend some of what may trickle down to an R6III a few more years down the line), or see if an R5II surfaces as well. 

Brian


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 12, 2022)

Chaitanya said:


> I thought Canon is going to stick with 3 year cycle for upgrades to these models.


The 6D did not follow a 3 year cycle


----------



## Johnw (Oct 12, 2022)

speg said:


> As someone about to upgrade from Rp to R6 within the next 6-8 weeks… I have no idea what to do



As someone that just upgraded from the RP to the R6, I would say get the R6 now, the Mark II is a bit off still I would think.


----------



## Uneternal (Oct 12, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> The 6D did not follow a 3 year cycle


Actually it's always been a 4 year cycle. Sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more. 6D was released end of 2012, 6D2 came a little later, middle of 2017. Canon has never updated cameras after just 2 years.
The original EOS R came in 2018, so its theoretically about to get an update soon.
I don't think Canon would replace the R6 already, I think the specs here and the R8 from yesterday are the same camera: The R successor that will launch first or second quarter of 2023 (it's too late for christmas sales to launch it this year). But the name is probably not set in stone yet.


----------



## usern4cr (Oct 12, 2022)

Hopefully the R6II will have a BSI 24MP sensor, which would make it a great camera at that form factor & price point.

Now, (yawn), are they _*ever*_ going to come out with a R5 II? Geez...


----------



## Kit. (Oct 12, 2022)

SimonW said:


> This is exactly where I'm at. Spec-wise the R6 would be great for me but I know I'm going to really miss that top LCD (Coming off a 5D MkIII).


I don't use the top LCD on my R5 (and by the way, it is already scratched).


----------



## Photonensammler (Oct 12, 2022)

If the R6 II will indeed use the sensor of the R3 (and the Digic X processor, which is given), I don‘t see a reason for the crop in 4K 60p. Even 4K 120p is possible, if not for artificial market segmentation.

If the R6 II will use a new non-stacked sensor I see no reason why there is an upgrade in the first place. 24 vs 20MP is almost irrelevant.


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 12, 2022)

Photonensammler said:


> If the R6 II will indeed use the sensor of the R3 (and the Digic X processor, which is given), I don‘t see a reason for the crop in 4K 60p. Even 4K 120p is possible, if not for artificial market segmentation.
> 
> If the R6 II will use a new non-stacked sensor I see no reason why there is an upgrade in the first place. 24 vs 20MP is almost irrelevant.


The M50II showed that a new model doesn’t have to have better hardware to still sell well. 
If Canon puts the R7/R3 firmware improvements in the current R6 body and calls it the R6II, it would sell well and be a nice improvement. Not enough for most people to trade in their R6, I think, but still…


----------



## HikeBike (Oct 12, 2022)

If this does have the R3's 24 MP BSI sensor (which would only make sense), Canon is half way to making the R6 my absolute dream camera. To finish the job, boost the sensor readout speed and get rid of the mechanical shutter. I don't expect that to happen until the Mark IV or V though. In the meantime, I still feel like my R6 is brand new, and am thrilled with the performance. I'm not upgrading this time around due to still being in the honeymoon phase of my relationship with this camera.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 12, 2022)

HikeBike said:


> If this does have the R3's 24 MP BSI sensor (which would only make sense), Canon is half way to making the R6 my absolute dream camera. To finish the job, boost the sensor readout speed and get rid of the mechanical shutter. I don't expect that to happen until the Mark IV or V though. In the meantime, I still feel like my R6 is brand new, and am thrilled with the performance. I'm not upgrading this time around due to still being in the honeymoon phase of my relationship with this camera.


Halfway is right; 2x24 Mpx = 48 Mpx.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 12, 2022)

I agree that these specs seem a bit underwhelming, at least from a stills perspective. I don't know video. 

I've owned both the 1DXIII and the R3. In day-to-day use, I wouldn't say that there is a significant difference between the sensors. Certainly not enough to justify upgrading. I switched because I got tired of carrying around duplicate lenses for both mounts (I have an R5). If it had only been the sensor I wouldn't have switched.

This feels to me like a reshuffling of the lineup -- move the R6 up a notch to allow more space between it and the R replacement.

I certainly hope they hold off on an R5 replacement for another year or so, to allow time for some real improvements like quad-pixel or similar autofocus upgrades.


----------



## Blue Zurich (Oct 12, 2022)

Traveler said:


> The only thing I’m missing on the R6 is the top LCD.
> Anything else – I don’t care


Same, it's a phenomenal stills body. One of the finest Canon has ever made. I never have thought once about it's megapickles count. 

Video shortcomings, whatever..... I'm a photographer. It's the right tool for the job, for me.


----------



## HikeBike (Oct 12, 2022)

speg said:


> As someone about to upgrade from Rp to R6 within the next 6-8 weeks… I have no idea what to do


Well, there's a lot to think about. But a few things to especially keep in mind are:

1) Release date - Perhaps Q2 of 2023?
2) Supply chain issues - You're probably going to wait 6 months after release for it to arrive.
3) Editing capability - It's gonna be awhile before all editing programs support the R6 Mark II properly. We know Adobe is quick about it, but many others are not. However, with the supply chain issues mentioned above, by the time you receive the camera, this point will likely be of minimal concern.


----------



## fred (Oct 12, 2022)

Traveler said:


> The only thing I’m missing on the R6 is the top LCD.
> Anything else – I don’t care


Agree 100%! Well there is one more thing missing (Sigma), but that's a different story…


----------



## kcimer (Oct 12, 2022)

Faster readout from the sensor is reason enough for me. Banding is killing me sometimes because majority of my work is with electronic shutter. LEDs, neons, cheap light, projectors ... sometimes I have to work with 1/50 and any movement means bad photos. Also in sports with very fast movement you coul see the deformation. Much, much better than the R, but ...
Same form factor - great, especially if it means that the extra expensive grip fits, same dual SD - great - I have the cards and never had a problem with their speed, liitle less noise and better definition in low light - great, 24mpix - just right - 20mpix is not unusable but it is a lillte low, 30mpix on R was overkill for me, better AF - always welcome, aldo the current one is great, 12/20 fps - plenty enough. As someone said - a dream camera for me.


----------



## BBarn (Oct 12, 2022)

Interesting to see how many like the top display, something I rarely use. I prefer the EVF for everything available in that tiny dim display and would much rather have another programmable button or two, additional features, or a lower cost.


----------



## Franklyok (Oct 12, 2022)

If that would be R6C, with 24 mpx , 6K raw , cinema line, then I would think again…


----------



## grantmasterflash (Oct 12, 2022)

Sounds like there was a production issue with making the old sensor. Insert the R3 sensor and call it an R6 II but without any of the R3 benefits. Problem solved.


----------



## esglord (Oct 12, 2022)

Maybe we'll see unlimited video record time and some type of internal cooling hardware update for both R6 and R5. That would be a good explanation for a mkii coming out now. While that's not something I particularly care about, I can see that improving the competitive position of these cameras. 24mp would also align with other brands' offerings. I hope this means I can pick up a mk i for $2k soon.


----------



## MiJax (Oct 12, 2022)

This rumor still makes no sense to me. So... 2-3 years later they upgrade the sensor, and call it a Mark II. Why? Also, for those interested in getter the stacked R3 sensor, expect the price to jump by $500. Yeah, that makes it a $3,000 camera. That precedent is validated by a number of other cameras that have upgraded to stacked sensors. Not to mention, this would really take a bite out of R3 sales. IMO, the biggest reason to buy an R3 over the current R6 is the stacked sensor. Beside the sensor, performance wise, there isn't a lot in it, so spending an additionally $3,000 for the R3 would get extremely difficult. Don't get me wrong, I'd buy it if it were available but it makes no sense for Canon to do it (at least at this time).

Something really wrong with the CR3 rating on this one to me. If I were to guess, I think Canon is trying to weed out leaks in its system. Canon is very happy to leak stuff on their own when they are ready.


----------



## mariosk1gr (Oct 12, 2022)

Even if it borrows R3's sensor it will be still difficult for someone to upgrade from R6. We are talking here for the same specs with better low light capabilities and better performance with stills when using electronic shutter. Canon needs to provide something more...! At least no overheating again in every mode and no timer also.


----------



## LSXPhotog (Oct 12, 2022)

Color me skeptical about this camera having the same sensor as an R3. If Canon does end up doing this then I'll be pretty disgruntled if we don't see more features applied to the R3 that help it stand out beyond just the superior ergonomics. A full-frame stacked sensor at this price point sounds way too good to be true. Then again, so did the R5's spec sheet before it became a reality.

I'm in the process of selling my R6 because of how much I hated using it with an R3 or an R5. The design of the camera's top dials and having no ability to save custom settings for video limit the camera a lot when you try to do more than one thing with it. If they come out with a second generation they BETTER not try take any input from the horrible R7 layout. Just give us an R3/R5 top plate and call it a day.


----------



## jdavidse (Oct 12, 2022)

The two biggest features it will have (I hope) are fixes for the loose hot shoe issue and the freeze issue. You will not find these in its spec sheet, but they could be the reason for the quick succession.


----------



## bergstrom (Oct 12, 2022)

so the R6ii will solve every complaint anyone ever had about the R6; overheating, wobble, freezing, record limit, the list is endless.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Oct 12, 2022)

As a former 1DX2 user and now R5, AF was three steps forward and one step back due to the lack of horizontal or diagonal sensitivity. It doesn't always show up but when it does it's pretty obvious and annoying. That's what I'll be watching for.


----------



## ashmadux (Oct 12, 2022)

Hmmm. I really really would prefer 28 or 30 mp for my landscapes. Right now it's kind of like the perfect resolution that doesn't sacrifice image quality for full frame. At least for Canon sensors. I have an M6 too but the extra pixels definitely does not result in extra resolution. 

That said I smell a price hike of a couple of hundred bucks easy. This is canon by the way.


----------



## Jayk0607 (Oct 12, 2022)

MiJax said:


> This rumor still makes no sense to me. So... 2-3 years later they upgrade the sensor, and call it a Mark II. Why? Also, for those interested in getter the stacked R3 sensor, expect the price to jump by $500. Yeah, that makes it a $3,000 camera. That precedent is validated by a number of other cameras that have upgraded to stacked sensors. Not to mention, this would really take a bite out of R3 sales. IMO, the biggest reason to buy an R3 over the current R6 is the stacked sensor. Beside the sensor, performance wise, there isn't a lot in it, so spending an additionally $3,000 for the R3 would get extremely difficult. Don't get me wrong, I'd buy it if it were available but it makes no sense for Canon to do it (at least at this time).
> 
> Something really wrong with the CR3 rating on this one to me. If I were to guess, I think Canon is trying to weed out leaks in its system. Canon is very happy to leak stuff on their own when they are ready.


Well.. Canon upgraded... firmware on M50 and called it a Mark II..


----------



## ashmadux (Oct 12, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> Look at the list price of the R6 and think that the Mk II will be at least half a year to a year at this price or even 15% more.
> If it really has the R3 sensor, it might be worth waiting.
> If you struggle with the higher price, go get R6 now.
> From my experience (trying out in shop) the EVF, the AF and the sensor performance of the R6 is much better than your RP.
> ...




It's not hard to beat the RP. The sensor is trash, canon cripple hammer at its finest. Its basically the same sensor style as in the 6d2.. aka . Hobbled to not compete with the next year upward.

I wish they would just use the bloody sensor from the 5d4. Do they feel like 30 megapixels is too close to the R5 45? sigh.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 12, 2022)

ashmadux said:


> I wish they would just use the bloody sensor from the 5d4. Do they feel like 30 megapixels is too close to the R5 45? sigh.


They did, in the EOS R.


----------



## John Wilde (Oct 12, 2022)

Chaitanya said:


> I thought Canon is going to stick with 3 year cycle for upgrades to these models.


Canon's stated goal is to be #1 in mirrorless market share, so they might upgrade faster than that, although they are still having parts supply problems.


----------



## ashmadux (Oct 12, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> so the R6ii will solve every complaint anyone ever had about the R6; overheating, wobble, freezing, record limit, the list is endless.


If you can shed some more light that'd be awesome. I was considering a refurb R6.


----------



## ashmadux (Oct 12, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> They did, in the EOS R.



Yes. But in the R62 please. It's a tried and true sensor, and I would appreciate it. That said, the goal is more MP. If that sensor was in the R6 I would have bought one a long time ago. It was my only hang up.


----------



## bergstrom (Oct 12, 2022)

John Wilde said:


> Canon's stated goal is to be #1 in mirrorless market share, so they might upgrade faster than that, although they are still having parts supply problems.



If they can make the R10, they've plenty of parts lying around


----------



## Maximilian (Oct 12, 2022)

ashmadux said:


> It's not hard to beat the RP. The sensor is trash, canon cripple hammer at its finest. Its basically the same sensor style as in the 6d2.. aka . Hobbled to not compete with the next year upward.
> 
> I wish they would just use the bloody sensor from the 5d4. Do they feel like 30 megapixels is too close to the R5 45? sigh.


Thinking about what pictures you can make with any kind of todays DSLR or MILC I wouldn't call any of those "trash".
When that sensor was released with the 6D2 people were sceptic, but it turned out to be quite good. 
Today I would call it "outdated", but still okay. TBH, it is one reason why I didn't buy an RP and hope for a Mk II of such a wonderfully small FF body. 
"Trash" is definitely too extreme.


----------



## Rocco Germani (Oct 12, 2022)

Doesn't seem to be much better than the original R6... Maybe if they take out the record limits, give us ALL-I recording and raw output it would be better. And for the love of all that's good in this world remove the awful micro HDMI.


----------



## padam (Oct 12, 2022)

LSXPhotog said:


> Color me skeptical about this camera having the same sensor as an R3. If Canon does end up doing this then I'll be pretty disgruntled if we don't see more features applied to the R3 that help it stand out beyond just the superior ergonomics. A full-frame stacked sensor at this price point sounds way too good to be true. Then again, so did the R5's spec sheet before it became a reality.
> 
> I'm in the process of selling my R6 because of how much I hated using it with an R3 or an R5. The design of the camera's top dials and having no ability to save custom settings for video limit the camera a lot when you try to do more than one thing with it. If they come out with a second generation they BETTER not try take any input from the horrible R7 layout. Just give us an R3/R5 top plate and call it a day.


It's pretty obvious that it won't get a stacked sensor, because cropped 4k60p points towards a much slower readout.
I'm guessing with the full sensor 4k, rolling shutter will be somewhere in between the R5 (16ms) and the R6 (31ms)

It is likely to be a non-stacked BSI sensor, so dynamic range and ISO might be improved somewhat.
And yes, unfortunately I don't see them making it closer to an R5.
That's exactly the reason why it is so much cheaper, despite having many of the same features.


----------



## MiJax (Oct 12, 2022)

Jayk0607 said:


> Well.. Canon upgraded... firmware on M50 and called it a Mark II..


Touché!


----------



## Exploreshootshare (Oct 12, 2022)

mariosk1gr said:


> Even if it borrows R3's sensor it will be still difficult for someone to upgrade from R6.


Releasing a R6 mk ii doesn't necessarily mean that Canon wants R6 users to upgrade. It just means they're upping their options available to new customers, current DSLR shooters who are about to switch to DSLM and most of all to have a more competitive offer compared to the competition. And therefore, a Mkii makes sense even if there are only small changes.

- stacked BSI 24mp sensor
- slightly better ergonomics (that new R7 dial comes to mind)
- maybe better EVF resolution
- no record time limitation 

All great updates which make the camera more competitive but certainly not enough to justify most R6 users to upgrade. R6 users might upgrade to R6 mk iii in some years...


----------



## Exploreshootshare (Oct 12, 2022)

If this rumor is true (CR 3 is basically a fact) it is fantastic news! I've been saying for weeks in R8 rumor section that a really good R8 (R successor) is only possible with a R6 mk ii so it doesn't cut into each other sales. So, if the R6 mk ii we can expect a great R8 camera for its value. Probably not the specs posted yesterday, but with IBIS, 30 mp, improved AF (over the R) and FPS. If both cameras are on the way, I´get one of them... 

It really feels like Canon is reshuffling the line-up now. Make room for an R8 and than later have space for an R9 (RP successor). 

Probably should sell my R while it is still worth the money...but I love it so much


----------



## nunataks (Oct 12, 2022)

This camera seems...weird to me? Like, Canon can refresh 2 much older cameras that are in dire need of refreshing for their price point, so why do one that is selling well enough to hold its value even used (still $2100 or so on FredMiranda). I guess at least the R6 will go down in price finally when this is released? I love the R6 but I can't currently justify the price for a full frame Rebel (essentially what it is...)


----------



## SHAMwow (Oct 12, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> Same, it's a phenomenal stills body. One of the finest Canon has ever made. I never have thought once about it's megapickles count.
> 
> Video shortcomings, whatever..... I'm a photographer. It's the right tool for the job, for me.


It's crazy how often the R6 gets overlooked and downplayed on forums and Youtube. It's essentially a pocket 1DX, at an insanely good price. If you told me 5 years ago I'd be able to get that in a package I would have laughed. I get how we have new normals with generational leaps, but it really is unbelievable as a sports shooter. Personally own an R5, but have an R6 at work. We love it.


----------



## HikeBike (Oct 12, 2022)

nunataks said:


> I love the R6 but I can't currently justify the price for a full frame Rebel (essentially what it is...)


I can only assume you're calling it a full-frame Rebel due to its pixel count, which is not at all a fair assessment. The R6 and any Rebel are worlds apart.

- Full-frame, as you mentioned
- Mirrorless
- DIGIC X
- New AF system
- IBIS
- Dual card slots
- Control layout is superior
- Better ergonomics

The list goes on.


----------



## Maximilian (Oct 12, 2022)

nunataks said:


> This camera seems...weird to me? Like, Canon can refresh 2 much older cameras that are in dire need ...


I can understand that thought. 
But Canon surely has an idea of how to approach and to segment the market. 
To me in the eyes of Canon and looking at the MSRP I suppose the R6 (II) shall become what the 5D /5D II were in the past. 
So refreshing the "cash cow" first seems logical to me.


----------



## markschneider (Oct 12, 2022)

SimonW said:


> This is exactly where I'm at. Spec-wise the R6 would be great for me but I know I'm going to really miss that top LCD (Coming off a 5D MkIII). Clicked on this hoping it might be making it on, looks like we're going to be disappointed


I came off the 5DMIV and don't miss the top LCD at all...


----------



## esglord (Oct 12, 2022)

Exploreshootshare said:


> If this rumor is true (CR 3 is basically a fact) it is fantastic news! I've been saying for weeks in R8 rumor section that a really good R8 (R successor) is only possible with a R6 mk ii so it doesn't cut into each other sales. So, if the R6 mk ii we can expect a great R8 camera for its value. Probably not the specs posted yesterday, but with IBIS, 30 mp, improved AF (over the R) and FPS. If both cameras are on the way, I´get one of them...
> 
> It really feels like Canon is reshuffling the line-up now. Make room for an R8 and than later have space for an R9 (RP successor).
> 
> Probably should sell my R while it is still worth the money...but I love it so much


Your assessment makes a lot of sense to me. I think if they can make a few meaningful upgrades to the R6, they price near $3k without hurting sales of the higher res R5 or faster R3, and that would make room to price a stills focused R replacement just over $2k. Then, they can introduce an RP replacement around $1k to control that market share at the low end of the full frame market. Then, they throw everything they've got into an R1 and charge as much as they can.


----------



## masterpix (Oct 12, 2022)

I would suspect it to have the new hot-shoe like the R3, faster AF, probably more capabilities in the AF, faster recording time. The R6 is a great camera as it is, so I wonder if there is a lot needed to change beside bit more MP and few small features.


----------



## Exploreshootshare (Oct 12, 2022)

esglord said:


> Your assessment makes a lot of sense to me. I think if they can make a few meaningful upgrades to the R6, they price near $3k without hurting sales of the higher res R5 or faster R3, and that would make room to price a stills focused R replacement just over $2k. Then, they can introduce an RP replacement around $1k to control that market share at the low end of the full frame market. Then, they throw everything they've got into an R1 and charge as much as they can.


I believe that's how it's going to happen. They'd have a complete lineup. 
R1 - do it all camera
R3 - build for speed... 
R5/ R5c/ R5s all-around and specialized pro cameras

R6 mkii - built for speed/ low light pros and enthusiasts
R7 - Wildlife APS-C
R8 - all around enthusiasts camera 
R9 - full frame entry level 

R10
R100
...and future rebels...


----------



## Juangrande (Oct 12, 2022)

WilliamJ said:


> Exactly, I’m not sure I’d be giving up FF 4k 60 for the sake of 24mp vs 20. Perhaps if there was no record limit like the R7 got I might be persuaded…


Is a 1.1 x crop that big a of a deal.? I don’t shoot video so I honestly don’t know.


----------



## SteveC (Oct 12, 2022)

BroderLund said:


> If R6 II is getting close, I would assume the R5 II is getting close too.


And I am guessing that they are deliberately working to put them on different cycles. The two originals came out simultaneously, but maybe they want to not upgrade them the same year from now on. So the R5II might come out one or two years later than the R6II...and THEN we'll see a regular 4 year cycle (or however many years they decide on), with the upgrades coming out in alternation rather than together.


----------



## SteveC (Oct 12, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> If they can make the R10, they've plenty of parts lying around


And I'm glad they can make the R10. If my dedicated-copy-stand-macro T6i craps out, the R10 would fill that niche quite nicely (same size and resolution sensor). (On the other hand it might be total overkill...best to wait for the three digit models, perhaps.) I'll be in trouble, though if the lens craps out before the camera, since it might be hard to find another 100m macro lens that will work on an EF(S) mount.


----------



## Blue Zurich (Oct 12, 2022)

HikeBike said:


> I can only assume you're calling it a full-frame Rebel due to its pixel count, which is not at all a fair assessment. The R6 and any Rebel are worlds apart.
> 
> - Full-frame, as you mentioned
> - Mirrorless
> ...


Thanks for listing all that, that comment which you responded to was absolute ignorant rubbish.


----------



## esglord (Oct 12, 2022)

Exploreshootshare said:


> I believe that's how it's going to happen. They'd have a complete lineup.
> R1 - do it all camera
> R3 - build for speed...
> R5/ R5c/ R5s all-around and specialized pro cameras
> ...


All I know is I need $2k-$3k saved up to buy either an R6 mk i, R6 mk ii, or R8 in 2023 depending on how this all shakes out. Can't imagine ever needing more than that for myself. I'm really happy with the RP, but the updated eye autofocus is these new cameras is incredible.


----------



## NorskHest (Oct 12, 2022)

They are probably not selling many R 3’s and have a lot of sensors left over and want to move them


----------



## john1970 (Oct 12, 2022)

For a camera that is only 27 months old it seems a bit too early to have a MkII version. I can see some modest improvements, but nothing that would be a game changer.


----------



## EverydayPhotographer (Oct 12, 2022)

speg said:


> As someone about to upgrade from Rp to R6 within the next 6-8 weeks… I have no idea what to do


Remember, of course, that the worst vice is advice. That being said, I am not far behind you. I have an RP and love it, but I know it’s time for an upgrade. And there are some small things that make me not want to spend $2,500+ on the R6. If they hold, the specs on this Mark II version will eliminate most all of the excuses I have remaining. My timetable is a little more open-ended though: I was thinking within the next year or so. And I haven’t even set the financial goals and started saving the money up yet. So I have time to wait. “Soon” could easily prove to be six months or more though. Only you can decide if the difference in photos you’ll take in that time frame will make it worth the wait.


----------



## Skux (Oct 12, 2022)

They aren't going to use the R3's sensor, this is Canon we're talking about lol.

This appears to be a modest revision, I do like 24mp as there are times I need to crop a vertical image from a horizontal one.

I hope we get some usability improvements:
- remove the 30 minute recording limit
- separate photo and video modes entirely so you can keep different settings for each and switch between them faster
- get the rear dial from the R7 but keep the top thumb dial so you have 3 dials plus a d-pad which you can use for extra custom buttons 
- some people swear by a top LCD, I don't need it but would be nice to have


----------



## Danglin52 (Oct 12, 2022)

Foxeslink said:


> Oh didn't know!
> But still, the specs are the same besides the megapixels. Well, we shall wait and see what comes next.
> I have an R, and I want to buy a new camera mostly for video(I'll do photography as well), and R6 is a very good choice. No 4k 120 but I can live with that. But I might wait for the final specs of this new R6. I'll make a choice after Christmas


Based on the R7 AF improvements from the R3, you will probably see improved AF features in the R6II.


----------



## navastronia (Oct 12, 2022)

Skux said:


> They aren't going to use the R3's sensor, this is Canon we're talking about lol.
> 
> This appears to be a modest revision, I do like 24mp as there are times I need to crop a vertical image from a horizontal one.
> 
> ...



Why wouldn't they use the R3's sensor? They used the 1DX mk III's sensor in the R6.


----------



## mpb001 (Oct 12, 2022)

I don’t really understand the logic in using a 24 mp sensor in this camera. It seems to me that 30 mp is now the standard for midrange cameras. They had a 30 mp sensor in the 5DIV in 2016. Come on Canon.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 12, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> They are probably not selling many R 3’s and have a lot of sensors left over and want to move them


This is hardly worth a reply. But, R3 is out of stock at most major U. S. Retailers, so they aren’t having any problem selling them.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 13, 2022)

Exploreshootshare said:


> Releasing a R6 mk ii doesn't necessarily mean that Canon wants R6 users to upgrade. It just means they're upping their options available to new customers, current DSLR shooters who are about to switch to DSLM and most of all to have a more competitive offer compared to the competition. And therefore, a Mkii makes sense even if there are only small changes.
> 
> - stacked BSI 24mp sensor
> - slightly better ergonomics (that new R7 dial comes to mind)
> ...


Yes, this is something people forget (despite repeated reminders from people like Neuro over the years) - a mark II is likely not aimed at mark I owners. It rarely makes much sense to upgrade within a line every generation.

As an R6 user I wouldn't be tempted to upgrade to this, nor would I expect to (and I'm glad, a substantially better one might annoy me given I only got it a few months ago).

Fwiw with regard to the earlier discussion about top LCDs, I thought I'd miss it but I don't at all.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 13, 2022)

mpb001 said:


> I don’t really understand the logic in using a 24 mp sensor in this camera. It seems to me that 30 mp is now the standard for midrange cameras. They had a 30 mp sensor in the 5DIV in 2016. Come on Canon.


The logic would be internal - if it's the R3 sensor, there's no extra development cost. Just like them using the 1DxIII sensor in the R6. I don't think their perspective is the same as a consumer's.


----------



## mxwphoto (Oct 13, 2022)

I would love to see the stacked bsi sensor in R6 at $2500 but it just doesnt seem feasible, especially if one looks at the Fuji X2HS at $2500, and that is a cropped stacked sensor to boot. Full frame is 2.3x the size of Fuji's apsc sensor, and to date only 5 cameras have full frame stacked sensors, A1, R3, A9, A9 II, Z9, all top of line cameras with prices above $4k at launch.

Maybe with advancements in manufacturing and economies of scale Canon could get it crammed into a $3500 camera, but then that would be R5 territory.


----------



## David - Sydney (Oct 13, 2022)

esglord said:


> Maybe we'll see unlimited video record time and some type of internal cooling hardware update for both R6 and R5. That would be a good explanation for a mkii coming out now. While that's not something I particularly care about, I can see that improving the competitive position of these cameras. 24mp would also align with other brands' offerings. I hope this means I can pick up a mk i for $2k soon.


unlimited record time and internal cooling was "fixed" for the R5 with the R5c's release. I can't see a R5ii having unlimited record time to compete with the R5c.


----------



## David - Sydney (Oct 13, 2022)

No reason why Canon can't leave the R6 for sale in parallel with the R6ii with a couple hundred dollar premium for the better sensor. Sony has been applying that marketing range for a while now.

I believe that an updated Digic X is needed to increase battery life and decrease heat generation. Canon is losing greatly in the spec sheet wars on that front. 

I don't use my R5 top screen. Didn't with my 5Div either. No idea why!

For all the rubbishing of the RP, it is still good value for money at the cheap end of the full frame range. An update would be appreciated though. Can't see it getting the R/5Div's sensor though so it will need to be a new one. Remove the EVF and undercut the market further


----------



## NorskHest (Oct 13, 2022)

unfocused said:


> This is hardly worth a reply. But, R3 is out of stock at most major U. S. Retailers, so they aren’t having any problem selling them.


Pretty sure I’m on to something. Just because you can’t find it doesn’t mean there is demand. 
Distributors know their markets and I bet if you talked to some sellers they would say there is not much demand.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 13, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> Pretty sure  I’m on to something. Just because you can’t find it doesn’t mean there is demand.
> Distributors know their markets and I bet if you talked to some sellers they would say there is not much demand.


Pretty sure you are wrong


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> Pretty sure I’m on to something.


Your argument is that Canon made such a vast excess of sensors for a $6000 camera aimed at the top of the market that they have enough of them sitting around —just the fabricated silicon, not assembled into R3 bodies— to support the production of a $2500 camera aimed at the middle-low end of the enthusiast market that will most likely sell more units in a year than the R3 will sell in its life cycle. 

Are you onto something? Or just on something?


----------



## dominic_siu (Oct 13, 2022)

speg said:


> As someone about to upgrade from Rp to R6 within the next 6-8 weeks… I have no idea what to do


Buy a R5, no need to wait for R62 or R6


----------



## dominic_siu (Oct 13, 2022)

LSXPhotog said:


> Color me skeptical about this camera having the same sensor as an R3. If Canon does end up doing this then I'll be pretty disgruntled if we don't see more features applied to the R3 that help it stand out beyond just the superior ergonomics. A full-frame stacked sensor at this price point sounds way too good to be true. Then again, so did the R5's spec sheet before it became a reality.
> 
> I'm in the process of selling my R6 because of how much I hated using it with an R3 or an R5. The design of the camera's top dials and having no ability to save custom settings for video limit the camera a lot when you try to do more than one thing with it. If they come out with a second generation they BETTER not try take any input from the horrible R7 layout. Just give us an R3/R5 top plate and call it a day.


I have played the R7 at Canon showroom, I really don’t understand why the heck they move the sub-dial to the upper of the camera, just like the multi function bar of R


----------



## Uneternal (Oct 13, 2022)

Exploreshootshare said:


> If this rumor is true (CR 3 is basically a fact) it is fantastic news! I've been saying for weeks in R8 rumor section that a really good R8 (R successor) is only possible with a R6 mk ii so it doesn't cut into each other sales. So, if the R6 mk ii we can expect a great R8 camera for its value. Probably not the specs posted yesterday, but with IBIS, 30 mp, improved AF (over the R) and FPS. If both cameras are on the way, I´get one of them...
> 
> It really feels like Canon is reshuffling the line-up now. Make room for an R8 and than later have space for an R9 (RP successor).
> 
> Probably should sell my R while it is still worth the money...but I love it so much


How would a new camera that's gonna be in the $3000 range cut into the sales of the R6, which by that time next year will probably be around $2200 or less?
It would rather cut into the sales releasing two new cameras because there wouldn't be much room to put this new R6 Mark II.
That's why I think that this R6 Mark II and the R8 is the same camera and probably these specs aren't 100% right. 
When the original EOS R was rumored, there was also talk about a 28 MP sensor, before the R5 got out there were rumors about it having a 40 MP sensor.
Although CR3 rating, I would take these specs with a grain of salt. It might just be different prototypes.


----------



## esglord (Oct 13, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> unlimited record time and internal cooling was "fixed" for the R5 with the R5c's release. I can't see a R5ii having unlimited record time to compete with the R5c.


You’re right. I forgot about R5c.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Oct 13, 2022)

speg said:


> As someone about to upgrade from Rp to R6 within the next 6-8 weeks… I have no idea what to do


Honestly. Unless you desperately need the extra 4 megapixels or the bsi sensor for the fast readout speed then don't write the r6 off. I have no issues producing high quality 100x50 (cm) acrylic prints for sale with mine. I have done product photography with it and never had a complaint from a client. Yes. For really fast panning or sports the electronic shutter does do a lot of warping but I just switch to mechanical in this situations.


----------



## Skux (Oct 13, 2022)

navastronia said:


> Why wouldn't they use the R3's sensor? They used the 1DX mk III's sensor in the R6.


Canon is not going to sell the distinguishing feature of the R3 for the price of an R6.


----------



## jam05 (Oct 13, 2022)

The EOS R3 has a stacked sensor. The first thing any insider would note other than resolution is if its a stacked or normal CMOS sensor. If they know the resolution they definitely would know if its a stacked sensor as in the R3. Quite sure admin will do a follow up.


----------



## KiagiJ (Oct 13, 2022)

mpb001 said:


> I don’t really understand the logic in using a 24 mp sensor in this camera. It seems to me that 30 mp is now the standard for midrange cameras. They had a 30 mp sensor in the 5DIV in 2016. Come on Canon.



Low megapixels is not a negative, it's a positive and desirable aspect for low light event or portrait photographers to get the cleanest high iso images. I chose an R6 over an R5 to get better low light performance, it's a superior camera in this one regard, just like the 6D was over the 5d mk iii. The 6 series has always been about great low light performance, it's always been a superior low light series that's somehow usually overlooked as a worse than 5 series camera, to me it's a better camera for my uses (low light), and cheaper so it's a win win. I just hope with the higher R6 II's 24 megapixels it'll be as iso clean as the R6


----------



## Czardoom (Oct 13, 2022)

Exploreshootshare said:


> Releasing a R6 mk ii doesn't necessarily mean that Canon wants R6 users to upgrade. It just means they're upping their options available to new customers, current DSLR shooters who are about to switch to DSLM and most of all to have a more competitive offer compared to the competition. And therefore, a Mkii makes sense even if there are only small changes.
> 
> - stacked BSI 24mp sensor
> - slightly better ergonomics (that new R7 dial comes to mind)
> ...


I think to be more accurate (at least in my opinion) Canon doesn't *expect *R6 users to upgrade - or any camera owner to upgrade to the next generation of the same camera line. And the same is true for Nikon, and most other brands. Because next generation upgrades are always small and incremental. It's always about new users, users upgrading from a different camera line, or photographers who use their camera so much that it is nearing the end of it's shutter life span, or needs replacement for other reasons. Many forum dwellers don't seem to get this.

I think an earlier poster may have been on track when they said it may be a quicker cycle than usual, to reposition the lineup to make room for the R8. If it does have the R3 sensor, expect the price to be pushed up a notch. This will allow for more room below price wise for the R8.


----------



## Czardoom (Oct 13, 2022)

dominic_siu said:


> I have played the R7 at Canon showroom, I really don’t understand why the heck they move the sub-dial to the upper of the camera, just like the multi function bar of R


Because that is where your thumb is. Pretty simple and works great.


----------



## mpb001 (Oct 13, 2022)

KiagiJ said:


> Low megapixels is not a negative, it's a positive and desirable aspect for low light event or portrait photographers to get the cleanest high iso images. I chose an R6 over an R5 to get better low light performance, it's a superior camera in this one regard, just like the 6D was over the 5d mk iii. The 6 series has always been about great low light performance, it's always been a superior low light series that's somehow usually overlooked as a worse than 5 series camera, to me it's a better camera for my uses (low light), and cheaper so it's a win win. I just hope with the higher R6 II's 24 megapixels it'll be as iso clean as the R6


I agree that the camera will be a general use camera but not a winner for landscapes and currently Canon does not have a higher mp camera between the R6 and R5 for people who want more resolution without spending $4000 for an R5.


----------



## Czardoom (Oct 13, 2022)

mpb001 said:


> I don’t really understand the logic in using a 24 mp sensor in this camera. It seems to me that 30 mp is now the standard for midrange cameras. They had a 30 mp sensor in the 5DIV in 2016. Come on Canon.


Lots of 24 MP cameras out there, both mid range and higher. Nikon Z6, Sony A9, Lumix S1 and S5, and of course Canon R3. If you want more MPs, there are plenty of choices, too. Not everyone wants or needs more than 24 (or even 20) MPs. Clearly there is no standard, which is a good thing because people want a choice.


----------



## mpb001 (Oct 13, 2022)

scyrene said:


> The logic would be internal - if it's the R3 sensor, there's no extra development cost. Just like them using the 1DxIII sensor in the R6. I don't think their perspective is the same as a consumer's.


I still think that it will be a general use camera. I have been a devoted Canon user for a long time but I will probably just start renting other cameras to see which will give me higher quality landscape photos without spending $4000 for an R5. A 30-33 mp Canon would fit the bill but Im not seeing that like I am with Sony or upcoming Nikon models.


----------



## Czardoom (Oct 13, 2022)

mpb001 said:


> I agree that the camera will be a general use camera but not a winner for landscapes and currently Canon does not have a higher mp camera between the R6 and R5 for people who want more resolution without spending $4000 for an R5.


Unless you are printing large prints, 20 or 24 MPs is completely fine for landscapes, in my opinion (and that's what I shoot most). Sold plenty of 8x10 and 11x14 prints using my old 6 MP camera. Can obviously print bigger with my shots taken with my old 6D. The idea that you need mnore MPS for landscape is just another one of those internet fairy tales, unless, of course, you are printing BIG. My opinion of course.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 13, 2022)

Franklyok said:


> If that would be R6C, with 24 mpx , 6K raw , cinema line, then I would think again…


Yeah, I have no need for an R6 II, but an R6 C would be awfully tempting.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 13, 2022)

ashmadux said:


> If you can shed some more light that'd be awesome. I was considering a refurb R6.


Other than freezing, the rest of the complaints only pertain to video.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 13, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> Thinking about what pictures you can make with any kind of todays DSLR or MILC I wouldn't call any of those "trash".
> When that sensor was released with the 6D2 people were sceptic, but it turned out to be quite good.
> Today I would call it "outdated", but still okay. TBH, it is one reason why I didn't buy an RP and hope for a Mk II of such a wonderfully small FF body.
> "Trash" is definitely too extreme.


I am not sure what people expect for $1K USD.
I think it is a very good value.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 13, 2022)

Skux said:


> They aren't going to use the R3's sensor, this is Canon we're talking about lol.


The R6 uses the same sensor and image processor from the 1DX III.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 13, 2022)

mpb001 said:


> I agree that the camera will be a general use camera but not a winner for landscapes and currently Canon does not have a higher mp camera between the R6 and R5 for people who want more resolution without spending $4000 for an R5.


If it was not for the supply shortage, the R5 should be down to $3,000 by now.


----------



## JoeP (Oct 13, 2022)

I am still hesitating to switch from DSLR to mirrorless since I am often hiking and need long battery times and also GPS.

Will the R6MarkII show GPS as it had been added also to the latest 5DMarkIV ?
Will battery life / power consumption improve ?
Will it have a BSI sensor like the R3 ?

Also, having the off/on button on the right to use the camera (as in R7) basically only with the right fingers would be a nice-to-have.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 13, 2022)

JoeP said:


> I am still hesitating to switch from DSLR to mirrorless since I am often hiking and need long battery times and also GPS.
> 
> Will the R6MarkII show GPS as it had been added also to the latest 5DMarkIV ?
> Will battery life / power consumption improve ?


It is not technically feasible to get DSLR battery life from a mirrorless camera.


----------



## navastronia (Oct 13, 2022)

Skux said:


> Canon is not going to sell the distinguishing feature of the R3 for the price of an R6.



The 1DX mk III and the R6 share a sensor. The 1DX mk III costs about as much as the R3.

The distinguishing features of the R3 are its eye-autofocus, body/handling, and toughness, btw.


----------



## Avenger 2.0 (Oct 13, 2022)

dominic_siu said:


> I have played the R7 at Canon showroom, I really don’t understand why the heck they move the sub-dial to the upper of the camera, just like the multi function bar of R


I must say, I was very sceptical about this too with the R7. But now after using it for a week, I'm used to it and it also feels like the best place for it. I hope they'll continue this trend and also put it on other bodies like that. The R multi function unfortunately I never get really used to. I've put mine on AF / Image browsing so it's still kind of useful in the rare cases I need it.


----------



## Avenger 2.0 (Oct 13, 2022)

Likely Canon is producing a new 24mpix sensor for the R6II (with dual card & ibis) and a lower entry level body R8/R9 (single card, no ibis) and give it the R7 level AF upgrade. I do not believe they will reuse the same R3 sensor in the R6II (it's just too soon). Also I do not believe in a RII.

The R and RP were just Canons first try. With R5, R6, R7, R10 no update to them is needed. Maybe a cheap full-frame with single card and no ibis might still appear, but since R10 has a ~1000€/$ price tag, ~1600€/$ would be the minimum I guess. However doubt they will get a higher mpix sensor then the R6 (maybe they will even reuse the R6 20mpix sensor for it).


----------



## JoeP (Oct 13, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> It is not technically feasible to get DSLR battery life from a mirrorless camera.


What about GPS ?

(Somewhat shorter battery life like 50% is OK - but 300 images from one battery is rather little ...)


----------



## KiagiJ (Oct 13, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> It is not technically feasible to get DSLR battery life from a mirrorless camera.



#what
I get the same life out of one R6 battery as all my old dslrs including 1dx2. 2-3hrs continuous event photography. Maybe better as with electronic shutter I can do over 1000 pics easy on 1 charge and I think it was less before


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 13, 2022)

JoeP said:


> What about GPS ?
> 
> (Somewhat shorter battery life like 50% is OK - but 300 images from one battery is rather little ...)


No R cameras beside the R3 have GPS builtin, you'll need to use a GP-E2 in the hot shoe or the Canon Connect app on your phone and failing that, an external solution if you want to geotag your pictures.


----------



## padam (Oct 13, 2022)

navastronia said:


> The 1DX mk III and the R6 share a sensor. The 1DX mk III costs about as much as the R3.
> 
> The distinguishing features of the R3 are its eye-autofocus, body/handling, and toughness, btw.


Just look at the feature set on the rumoured R6 II vs R3, very far from being the same.

It is a different sensor.

Every product is segmented.

The R6 is limited by rolling shutter, overheating and internal recording limit.
The R6 II will be limited by the 4k60p crop and still not great rolling shutter (pretty much just like the A7 IV)
4k120p is only presented in the R5 or upwards.

The reason why the R6 used that sensor is because it was an old sensor to being with.
The 1DX III is obsolete at this point, they offer it, but they want people to move systems.

In fact, the R6 II sensor might be cheaper to produce than the R6 sensor, hence the change.


----------



## Skux (Oct 13, 2022)

navastronia said:


> The 1DX mk III and the R6 share a sensor. The 1DX mk III costs about as much as the R3.
> 
> The distinguishing features of the R3 are its eye-autofocus, body/handling, and toughness, btw.


The distinguishing feature of the R3 is the stacked BSI sensor, it's literally the first thing they talk about in all of the marketing materials and it's their only camera to feature this technology. You can get toughness and handling in other Canon DSLRs, and eye controlled focus in their film cameras.

Canon is not going to give you their best technology at a midrange price point. And given the cost of the technology they probably couldn't even if they wanted to.


----------



## Kit. (Oct 13, 2022)

KiagiJ said:


> Low megapixels is not a negative,


Low megapixels mean greater loss of resolution during digital distortion correction.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 13, 2022)

padam said:


> The reason why the R6 used that sensor is because it was an old sensor to being with.


The 1DX III was only out a year before the R6.
I thought that the 1DX III used a new sensor.


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 13, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> The 1DX III was only out a year before the R6.
> I thought that the 1DX III used a new sensor.


Correct, it was a new sensor and a new lowpass filter in the 1DxIII. The filter alone was a big improvement, it preserved *much* more fine detail compared to older sensors.


----------



## padam (Oct 13, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> The 1DX III was only out a year before the R6.
> I thought that the 1DX III used a new sensor.


It's routes are pretty old, not completely different to what it was in the 1DX II, except a new filter and a Digic X processor squeezing a lot more out of it.
If we compare 4k rolling shutter in the 1.4x crop mode, it's pretty much the same. Coincidence?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2022)

Personally, I doubt Canon will use the R3’s stacked, BSI sensor in the R6II. As others have stated, it’s costly to produce. The 1D X III sensor is commonly-used current tech, the R3 sensor is new in many ways. 

Still, if they do it will be great for the R6II buyers. 

But…what if they _don’t_ put a stacked sensor in the R5II?


----------



## peters (Oct 13, 2022)

Isnt it a bit early? I thought the product cycle of 5er 6er 1er canon cameras is pretty solid around 4 years? The R6 is just 2 years old?
But lets hope 
Though I must say, for me the 4 year cycle worked pretty perfectly, starting at the 5D Mark II. =)


----------



## Bob Howland (Oct 13, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Personally, I doubt Canon will use the R3’s stacked, BSI sensor in the R6II. As others have stated, it’s costly to produce. The 1D X III sensor is commonly-used current tech, the R3 sensor is new in many ways.
> 
> Still, if they do it will be great for the R6II buyers.
> 
> But…what if they _don’t_ put a stacked sensor in the R5II?


I'm skeptical about how expensive the R3 sensor really is. The OM-1 has a stacked BSI Sony sensor, although obviously a smaller one, in a $2200 camera body and rumor has it that OMD is about to put the same sensor into a $1600 body.


----------



## padam (Oct 13, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> I'm skeptical about how expensive the R3 sensor really is. The OM-1 has a stacked BSI Sony sensor, although obviously a smaller one, in a $2200 camera body and rumor has it that OMD is about to put the same sensor into a $1600 body.


Apples to oranges, that stacked sensor isn't the most state of the art. 1/125s readout speed is the slowest, slower than 1/160s in the first-gen A9 from 2017. So it wouldn't be surprising to see it in a cheaper product. The R3 sensor is 1/200s despite being four times larger.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> I'm skeptical about how expensive the R3 sensor really is. The OM-1 has a stacked BSI Sony sensor, although obviously a smaller one, in a $2200 camera body and rumor has it that OMD is about to put the same sensor into a $1600 body.


There are stacked BSI sensors in lots of smartphones, too. It’s not just about sensor size, larger sensors have disproportionately lower yields. A FF sensor costs significantly more than 4x what a m4/3 sensor costs to produce.


----------



## NorskHest (Oct 13, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Your argument is that Canon made such a vast excess of sensors for a $6000 camera aimed at the top of the market that they have enough of them sitting around —just the fabricated silicon, not assembled into R3 bodies— to support the production of a $2500 camera aimed at the middle-low end of the enthusiast market that will most likely sell more units in a year than the R3 will sell in its life cycle.
> 
> Are you onto something? Or just on something?


Oh hey narcissist, you kids always think you have the answers as well as thinking you know all and I just through a possibility out into the ether knowing that you of all people would respond and make some ad hominem attack and sir you did. Good job you are predictable, now to my comment of canon using its sensors in other cameras.

Canon seems to do this often and if I remember correctly the c200 sensor was based off of the 1dxmkii and canon always seems to try to multi purpose sensors (as it is intelligent). So it could be feasible that they made a lot of sensors when they could as there has been shortages in the world and just maybe the demand was not that high for the r 3 at first and maybe just maybe canon thought hey these are not moving like anticipated sooooooo let’s repurpose, or maybe not but at least I got the narcissist to come out and do what he does best.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Oct 13, 2022)

The R6 is bad for hybrid shooting so hopefully they address the major issue when switching from photo to custom video modes in a speedy manner.


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 13, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> [..] But…what if they _don’t_ put a stacked sensor in the R5II?


Well, I hope the R5 mark one camera don't all suddenly stop working when the R5II launches.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> ...now to my comment of canon using its sensors in other cameras.
> 
> Canon seems to do this often and if I remember correctly the c200 sensor was based off of the 1dxmkii and canon always seems to try to multi purpose sensors (as it is intelligent). So it could be feasible that they made a lot of sensors when they could as there has been shortages in the world and just maybe the demand was not that high for the r 3 at first and maybe just maybe canon thought hey these are not moving like anticipated sooooooo let’s repurpose, or maybe not but at least I got the narcissist to come out and do what he does best.


So, now you're saying that Canon made extra sensors for the 1DXII then used them in the C200, instead? What did they do to those extra 1DXII sensors, just cut them down to Super 35 size and stick them in the C200?  Or maybe you don't remember correctly.




Of course Canon reuses technology across their lines. But you're talking about making too many sensors for one camera then using them in another camera that will be produced in far greater numbers than the original. 

Sorry, calling ridiculous suggestions asinine doesn't make me a narcissist, just someone who has a firm grasp on reality and can easily spot fools.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 13, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> Well, I hope the R5 mark one camera don't all suddenly stop working when the R5II launches.


It would if it were made by Adobe. I opened PS one day when not connected to the internet and Adobe tried to delete the app as it thought my account had expired.


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 13, 2022)

AlanF said:


> It would if it were made by Adobe. I opened PS one day when not connected to the internet and Adobe tried to delete the app as it thought my account had expired.


You need to connect to the internet every 2 weeks to keep your Adobe stuff working


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> You need to connect to the internet every 2 weeks to keep your Adobe stuff working


Maybe Apple can add contacting Adobe to the iPhone Emergency SOS via Satellite feature.


----------



## John Wilde (Oct 13, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> They are probably not selling many R 3’s and have a lot of sensors left over and want to move them


Since Canon makes their own sensors, they would adjust sensor manufacturing output to match demand.


----------



## padam (Oct 13, 2022)

RayValdez360 said:


> The R6 is bad for hybrid shooting so hopefully they address the major issue when switching from photo to custom video modes in a speedy manner.


Already fixed in the R7, so likely the same thing will follow in the R6 II.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2022)

John Wilde said:


> Since Canon makes their own sensors, they would adjust sensor manufacturing output to match demand.


Exactly. But I have learned that logic rarely penetrates thick skulls.


----------



## usern4cr (Oct 13, 2022)

AlanF said:


> It would if it were made by Adobe. I opened PS one day when not connected to the internet and Adobe tried to delete the app as it thought my account had expired.


I have chosen to give up the good things that Photoshop once offered for me because of the way they have chosen to treat their customers. While I give up the use of it and other useful things like Lightroom, I can still smile because I am not treated that way by DXO PhotoLab, FastRawViewer or Affinity Photo that I have chosen to use instead.


----------



## Skyscraperfan (Oct 13, 2022)

Maybe they just realised that the R6 is too much of a rival for the R3. So they will bring an R6 II which is much more expensive.


----------



## neurorx (Oct 13, 2022)

I wonder when the R5 will be updated given this announcement, Maybe after an R1 and the R5 II would get its sensor?


----------



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 13, 2022)

> Yesterday we reported the first sure-fire specifications for the upcoming Canon EOS R6 Mark II. We have no received more information about the upcoming camera.
> Canon EOS R6 Mark II Specifications (New information in bold)
> 
> 24mp Full-frame CMOS Sensor
> ...



Continue reading...


----------



## Katootje (Oct 13, 2022)

Alas: and again no GPS facilities.
As I travel much, I want to have the GPS coordinates in my (RAW) pictures, as I am used to by now with my 5D Mk3 (with GPS receiver) and my 5D Mk4.
I would like to go 'Mirror-less', but not without GPS. And yes, I take the battery for granted.


----------



## Marco Birri (Oct 13, 2022)

Cloud RAW processing... hmmm... 5G? WiFi 6E? 5GHz WiFi?


----------



## AlanF (Oct 13, 2022)

Digital Teleconverter? Good for using as a spotting scope, but I do that in software anyway.


----------



## Curahee (Oct 13, 2022)

I see this as what the R6 should have been from the beginning with a 24 mp sensor.


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 13, 2022)

Katootje said:


> Alas: and again no GPS facilities.
> As I travel much, I want to have the GPS coordinates in my (RAW) pictures, as I am used to by now with my 5D Mk3 (with GPS receiver) and my 5D Mk4.
> I would like to go 'Mirror-less', but not without GPS. And yes, I take the battery for granted.


The GP-E2 will likely still work in the hot shoe.


----------



## SHAMwow (Oct 13, 2022)

Curahee said:


> I see this as what the R6 should have been from the beginning with a 24 mp sensor.


What was wrong with it from the beginning?


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 13, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Digital Teleconverter? Good for using as a spotting scope, but I do that in software anyway.


I wonder if that means we get the usual 1.6x crop mode with 1.4x and 2x added or a separate way of enabling the digital TC.


----------



## navastronia (Oct 13, 2022)

padam said:


> Just look at the feature set on the rumoured R6 II vs R3, very far from being the same.
> 
> It is a different sensor.
> 
> ...



Yep! and that's the same reason why the R6II will use the R3's sensor - because by the time the R6II comes out, it will be old.


----------



## navastronia (Oct 13, 2022)

Y'all really in here arguing that Canon is making a brand-new, mid-range 24MP sensor in 2022 . . . and it somehow isn't the same as/based on the one they already have in the R3, even though they have a recent track record of doing this exact move with the top-of-the-line 1DX Mk III and the R6? Hilarious.

I could end up being wrong (as could anyone - all of this is rumored), but the people are acting like this is impossible are fools.


----------



## davidcl0nel (Oct 13, 2022)

Katootje said:


> Alas: and again no GPS facilities.




It works for me on R5 to peer it with my smartphone by bluetooth and use the Canon App. I use the phone anyway for tracking with a Openstreetmap, but with this I can get the coords into the RAW.
And it doesn't use very much energy in the camera, like the 6D where you can forgot to disable it while sleep to have a fast resync....

And my phone use 4 different "GPS" systems, Glonass, Galileo and Baidou also...


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 13, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> Canon seems to do this often and if I remember correctly the c200 sensor was based off of the 1dxmkii and canon always seems to try to multi purpose sensors (as it is intelligent). So it could be feasible that they made a lot of sensors when they could as there has been shortages in the world and just maybe the demand was not that high for the r 3 at first and maybe just maybe canon thought hey these are not moving like anticipated sooooooo let’s repurpose, or maybe not but at least I got the narcissist to come out and do what he does best.


Canon surely would not have expected the R3 to sell in R6 II numbers.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 13, 2022)

neurorx said:


> I wonder when the R5 will be updated given this announcement, Maybe after an R1 and the R5 II would get its sensor?


The R5 got its own sensor.
I will not presume that the R5 would share the R1 sensor.
Not that we even know what the R1 sensor will be yet.


----------



## Elmonducky (Oct 13, 2022)

What is a "digital teleconverter"?


----------



## xiaohuaa (Oct 13, 2022)

FYI: 1DX3 was only 6 months old when R6 was announced, while R3 is already over one year old by NOW, plus 1DX3 has no IBIS


----------



## Avenger 2.0 (Oct 13, 2022)

RayValdez360 said:


> The R6 is bad for hybrid shooting so hopefully they address the major issue when switching from photo to custom video modes in a speedy manner.


Indeed, even the original EOS R was better as you could program C3 with your required movie settings and when pressing record from photo mode, it would record video with those settings in photo mode.

Guess they'll give it unlimited recording, better R3 AF and less overheating...


----------



## padam (Oct 13, 2022)

navastronia said:


> Yep! and that's the same reason why the R6II will use the R3's sensor - because by the time the R6II comes out, it will be old.


You need to read the rest as well.
There is no overlap in the MILC lineup, everything is an update with regards to both photo and video as one moves higher up in the range.

An R6 II will be inferior to the R5 in almost every regard, which, after the heat management update needs no further updates at this point and the R5C serves as another product that provides more features for video, so they won't make an R5 II to kill that off.

It was only between an high-end DSLR sensor used in a mid-range mirrorless camera.
And just because they did that a few times regarding the EOS R, RP and R6, people wrongly assume they would do it again - even if it makes no sense at all.


----------



## DeanWilsonCanby (Oct 13, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> [CR3] here makes the rumoured R8 specs being dead or maybe just another prototype variation of an R6 II.
> 
> And the step forward is quite small, as already mentioned.


You are comparing a CR1 to a CR3?
*[CR3] – Fact*
_We use this rating when we’re sure what we’re posting is a fact._

*[CR1] – Plausible information, but from an unconfirmed source*
_This is information we deem as “possible”. However, the information comes from an unknown or anonymous source, so we cannot confirm its authenticity._


----------



## mxwphoto (Oct 13, 2022)

xiaohuaa said:


> FYI: 1DX3 was only 6 months old when R6 was announced, while R3 is already over one year old by NOW, plus 1DX3 has no IBIS


The 1DX3 sensor is based on tweaks to their mature FSI sensor tech used on all their other cameras. The at the time state of the art OLP filter was the new defining characteristic of that sensor package, which they did not put in R6.

R3 on the other hand, uses their brand new stacked sensor tech with a 5ms readout of the entire sensor. Due to size differences, having a 5ms readout on a full frame is a LOT more technically challenging than say on a type-1, m43 or apsc sensor. Also stacked design means sandwiching 2-3 substrates together of which electronics substrate on the bottom with ADC and logic need finer lithography than the sensor pixels. That means either Canon retooled their sensor production line with a whole bunch of really expensive equipment or they outsourced the bottom substrate, both of which adds to cost per chip.

No doubt Canon will leverage their new stacked sensor tech and trickle it down the line eventually, I just don't see them starting it with R6 when the R1 hasn't even been announced yet as they would lose a big marketing point on a flagship.

Gladly eat my words and buy the mk II if they do include a stacked sensor on it though!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2022)

Elmonducky said:


> What is a "digital teleconverter"?


My R3 has one.


----------



## NorskHest (Oct 13, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> So, now you're saying that Canon made extra sensors for the 1DXII then used them in the C200, instead? What did they do to those extra 1DXII sensors, just cut them down to Super 35 size and stick them in the C200?  Or maybe you don't remember correctly.
> 
> View attachment 205934
> 
> ...


Last I checked I said based off of when talking about 1dx and c200 but you see you’re a narcissist and you actually don’t know how to read properly or actually even have a discussion because your ego is well trying to compensate for other shortcomings in your life


----------



## Maximilian (Oct 13, 2022)

DeanWilsonCanby said:


> You are comparing a CR1 to a CR3?
> *[CR3] – Fact*
> _We use this rating when we’re sure what we’re posting is a fact._
> 
> ...


I am comparing two spec lists, that are rated differently by Craig/CR.

If that [CR3] rated R6 MkII is a "Fact", then the [CR1] spec of a possible R8 with almost the same data, but a higher MP sensor cannot come true. 
Those are too close together than giving market segments for two bodies being so close. 

So either the rumoured R8 is not coming or it was misinterpreted and is just another variation of an R6 MkII with a different sensor.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> Last I checked I said based off of when talking about 1dx and c200 but you see you’re a narcissist and you actually don’t know how to read properly or actually even have a discussion because your ego is well trying to compensate for other shortcomings in your life


It’s cute that you think moving the goalposts makes you look less foolish.


----------



## NorskHest (Oct 13, 2022)

navastronia said:


> Y'all really in here arguing that Canon is making a brand-new, mid-range 24MP sensor in 2022 . . . and it somehow isn't the same as/based on the one they already have in the R3, even though they have a recent track record of doing this exact move with the top-of-the-line 1DX Mk III and the R6? Hilarious.
> 
> I could end up being wrong (as could anyone - all of this is rumored), but the people are acting like this is impossible are fools.


I have learned that this forum is full of know it all’s and people who do nothing in their lives, from time to time I like to pop in here make a post and wait for Mr. narcissist to comment back he’s very predictable and so are many others in here, they literally just want something to complain about and or fight about. Their cameras are their lives and probably mostly collecting dust.


----------



## navastronia (Oct 13, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> I have learned that this forum is full of know it all’s and people who do nothing in their lives, from time to time I like to pop in here make a post and wait for Mr. narcissist to comment back he’s very predictable and so are many others in here, they literally just want something to complain about and or fight about. Their cameras are their lives and probably mostly collecting dust.



Oh, the best decision I've made here was blocking + muting certain forumers. I think I've had neuro muted for almost 3 years and only unmute him in order to have an argument every once in a while.


----------



## antonio_s (Oct 13, 2022)

"Digital teleconverter," meaning... cropping and upscaling? I can do that with any camera already.


----------



## fox40phil (Oct 13, 2022)

unfocused said:


> This is hardly worth a reply. But, R3 is out of stock at most major U. S. Retailers, so they aren’t having any problem selling them.


Maybe other parts are the problem or even more sensors then cameras or/and they planned to bring the R6II with the same sensor (just logically!). So they will have enough! A 6k€ Camera is a niche product. But the sensorproduction is expensive and they logically want to use the spend R&D for as much products they can.

Remember the old 18MP apsc Sensor ... 7d, 60d, 550d and many more.

I hope so hard that there will be a rolling-shutter-free R6II!! 
And please with e-Shutter with flashlight use and light sync!!


----------



## Johnw (Oct 13, 2022)

fox40phil said:


> Maybe other parts are the problem or even more sensors then cameras or/and they planned to bring the R6II with the same sensor (just logically!). So they will have enough!



So you believe that Canon is cannibalizing current sales of their high end products (R3), in order to stock up on enough sensors to be able to introduce the same one in a future lower priced product? Yeah that seems like an airtight logical case there.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> I have learned that this forum is full of know it all’s and people who do nothing in their lives, from time to time I like to pop in here make a post and wait for Mr. narcissist to comment back he’s very predictable and so are many others in here, they literally just want something to complain about and or fight about.


I’ve learned this forum is full of people who spout nonsense, and take immediate offense when anyone disagrees with them. Usually, those people have no facts or data to back up their assertions.

Also note that I questioned if your ridiculous assertion that Canon somehow made enough excess R3 sensors to produce an R6II with the surplus sensors meant you were on some sort of mind-alerting substance, i.e., a characterization of your behavior. You labeled that an ‘ad hominem attack’, but apparently you don’t know what that actually means. I did not _substitute_ an insult for a rational argument, I provided a rational rebuttal, one making a lot more sense than your silly assertion, along with a veiled reference to your mental state. You responded with puerile, repetitive personal insults, i.e., a characterization of me personally. The fact that you reacted in that way says much about your maturity and personality (none of it good).



NorskHest said:


> Their cameras are their lives and probably mostly collecting dust.


Says the guy who’s posted more gear pics here than photographs.


That’s ironic, lol.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2022)

navastronia said:


> I think I've had neuro muted for almost 3 years and only unmute him in order to have an argument every once in a while.


Clearly you’re spending that time ineffectually, but it’s your time to waste.


----------



## HikeBike (Oct 13, 2022)

KiagiJ said:


> Low megapixels is not a negative, it's a positive and desirable aspect for low light event or portrait photographers to get the cleanest high iso images. I chose an R6 over an R5 to get better low light performance, it's a superior camera in this one regard, just like the 6D was over the 5d mk iii. The 6 series has always been about great low light performance, it's always been a superior low light series that's somehow usually overlooked as a worse than 5 series camera, to me it's a better camera for my uses (low light), and cheaper so it's a win win. I just hope with the higher R6 II's 24 megapixels it'll be as iso clean as the R6


I'm with ya. And I welcome the smaller file sizes as well.


----------



## ISO64 (Oct 13, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> My R3 has one.
> 
> View attachment 205942


Digital teleconveter = n, [Canonese] pixel shift on cropped image. Mystical feature used by marketing to befuddle rumor crowd, hunted to extintion by patent lawyers.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 13, 2022)

Elmonducky said:


> What is a "digital teleconverter"?


Well all the R models already have a "digital teleconverter" in that you can choose a 1.6 crop mode (1.6x digital teleconverter). Maybe they are adding additional crop modes (1.4 and/or 2.0) or maybe they are adding some post-processing that artificially adds more resolution. We will just have to wait and see, but based on past experience with these kinds of "features" it seems like they seldom work at well as their hype claims.


----------



## navastronia (Oct 13, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Well all the R models already have a "digital teleconverter" in that you can choose a 1.6 crop mode (1.6x digital teleconverter). Maybe they are adding additional crop modes (1.4 and/or 2.0) or maybe they are adding some post-processing that artificially adds more resolution. We will just have to wait and see, but based on past experience with these kinds of "features" it seems like they seldom work at well as their hype claims.



I've actually been quite happy with the 1.6 crop because I shoot with primes and am fine with losing some resolution in order to get a different perspective sometimes.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 13, 2022)

KiagiJ said:


> Low megapixels is not a negative, it's a positive and desirable aspect for low light event or portrait photographers to get the cleanest high iso images. I chose an R6 over an R5 to get better low light performance, it's a superior camera in this one regard, just like the 6D was over the 5d mk iii. The 6 series has always been about great low light performance, it's always been a superior low light series that's somehow usually overlooked as a worse than 5 series camera, to me it's a better camera for my uses (low light), and cheaper so it's a win win. I just hope with the higher R6 II's 24 megapixels it'll be as iso clean as the R6


If it works for you, great. But, honestly in my experience (1Dx II, 1Dx III, several 5Ds, R5, R, R3) I have never been able to see a significant difference in noise performance between lower and higher resolution sensors *of the same or similar generation*. I currently shoot an R3 and an R5 side by side and without looking at the EXIF I would be hard pressed to find a difference between the two.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 13, 2022)

navastronia said:


> I've actually been quite happy with the 1.6 crop because I shoot with primes and am fine with losing some resolution in order to get a different perspective sometimes.


Yes, I often use the 1.6 crop for small birds. With the R5 the resulting image is not much less resolution than a 7DII.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 13, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> I have learned that this forum is full of know it all’s and people who do nothing in their lives, from time to time I like to pop in here make a post and wait for Mr. narcissist to comment back he’s very predictable and so are many others in here, they literally just want something to complain about and or fight about. Their cameras are their lives and probably mostly collecting dust.


Just to set the record straight. The comment that got you into trouble was the suggestion that Canon failed to accurately predict sales of the R3 and had a bunch of R3 sensors sitting around that they needed to use up, so they were putting them into the R6. Clearly a ridiculous proposition since it would require that Canon is so poorly managed that they would be unable to accurately predict demand and would compound that error by continuing to make sensors which there was no demand for. @neuroanatomist pointed out that the total sales of the R6 far exceeds those of the R3, so using up sensors in that manner makes even less sense, since they could not possibly have that many sensors sitting around

While @neuroanatomist takes issue with the idea that Canon might use the same sensor in the R6II. I don't really have an opinion on that. In fact I think it is quite likely that they might use the same or similar sensor. But, that wasn't the point, although you have since tried to pretend it was.


----------



## fox40phil (Oct 13, 2022)

Johnw said:


> So you believe that Canon is cannibalizing current sales of their high end products (R3), in order to stock up on enough sensors to be able to introduce the same one in a future lower priced product? Yeah that seems like an airtight logical case there.


It was done the same way with the last top end camera ... there will be still features only for the R3/1 to let them in their place.


----------



## KiagiJ (Oct 13, 2022)

unfocused said:


> If it works for you, great. But, honestly in my experience (1Dx II, 1Dx III, several 5Ds, R5, R, R3) I have never been able to see a significant difference in noise performance between lower and higher resolution sensors *of the same or similar generation*. I currently shoot an R3 and an R5 side by side and without looking at the EXIF I would be hard pressed to find a difference between the two.



Reviews seem to suggest it only benefits iso 12800 and higher this generation. Sometimes i have to go to 25600 or 51200 at a night event freezing candids in terrible light! If you don't go to 12800+ i understand it's not a big difference


----------



## Kharan (Oct 13, 2022)

I nailed it. I’m guessing it’ll have the R5’s control scheme and body, to justify the $500-1,000 extra that it’ll cost over the mark I. Canon wants to improve on the old X/H scheme used by Nikon years ago, two cameras with identical bodies and many core specs, one fitted for speed, and the other for resolution. It’d make total sense. So, the R8 would need to replace both the R and RP, with moderate cost and a feature set clearly beneath the R6, which will eventually become the stepping stone into “pro” RF.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2022)

unfocused said:


> While @neuroanatomist takes issue with the idea that Canon might use the same sensor in the R6II. I don't really have an opinion on that.


I wouldn’t say I ‘take issue’ with the idea, in the sense that I have a problem with them doing so. I doubt Canon will (and maybe that’s exactly what you meant), but as I stated if they do that’s great for R6II buyers.


----------



## David - Sydney (Oct 13, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> It is not technically feasible to get DSLR battery life from a mirrorless camera.


Technically, it would be similar to the same battery life as if the DLSR was used in liveview if the mirrorless body was also using the rear screen (not the EVF). Noting that the DLSRs were using lower capacity batteries in the past ie the N variant - which is backwards compatible - was only released with the R5/6,

CFe cards and inefficient processors (compared to Sony) + IBIS are the main difference for heat generation/battery life cf Canon DLSRs. Newer algorithms for AF covering the whole sensor/eye-AF may also contribute using more power.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 13, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I wouldn’t say I ‘take issue’ with the idea, in the sense that I have a problem with them doing so. I doubt Canon will (and maybe that’s exactly what you meant), but as I stated if they do that’s great for R6II buyers.


Yes, I just meant that you doubt Canon will do that. I kind of think they might.


----------



## David - Sydney (Oct 13, 2022)

John Wilde said:


> Since Canon makes their own sensors, they would adjust sensor manufacturing output to match demand.


Canon makes lithography equipment and clearly designs the sensors/processors but are they manufacturing stacked/BSI sensors (fab) as well? 
Is their lithography equipment business unit supporting stacked/BSI processor designs?


----------



## unfocused (Oct 13, 2022)

KiagiJ said:


> Reviews seem to suggest it only benefits iso 12800 and higher this generation. Sometimes i have to go to 25600 or 51200 at a night event freezing candids in terrible light! If you don't go to 12800+ i understand it's not a big difference


Got it. You are probably better at post-processing than me. I've found that once I get above 12800 the choice becomes one of "crappy" vs. "really crappy."


----------



## jeffa4444 (Oct 13, 2022)

Owning the R, R5 and R6 I can honestly say I never miss the top LCD screen when switching between the three cameras. The MP boost of 4MP is not enough to upgrade from the R6 to the MKII camera however improvements to AF and AF tracking, digital tele-converter might be.


----------



## KiagiJ (Oct 14, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Got it. You are probably better at post-processing than me. I've found that once I get above 12800 the choice becomes one of "crappy" vs. "really crappy."



I just use the R6 in-camera jpeg noise reduction to max, does an amazing job, also tactics like black & white to remove the observation of color noise 


This is iso 40000 !!! in camera noise reduction, boat party, f/1.4 1/200th second to help stop boat motion


----------



## navastronia (Oct 14, 2022)

KiagiJ said:


> I just use the R6 in-camera jpeg noise reduction to max, does an amazing job, also tactics like black & white to remove the observation of color noise
> 
> 
> This is iso 40000 !!! in camera noise reduction, boat party, 1/200th second to help with stop boat motion


Oh yeah, I get to ISO 12800 and I'm like . . . hmmmmmm, yes, the client will receive a BW for this one


----------



## David - Sydney (Oct 14, 2022)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


- Has there been any real world advantages to processing Dual Pixel Raw images?
- A digital teleconverter would be just a cropping tool - perhaps a selectable crop ratio vs current 1.6 crop. Some competitions don't allow significant cropping and especially for underwater photography where you can't change the lens or necessarily get closer then an adjustable crop could be useful but it is pretty niche. Internal upscaling feature would be less likely as post-processing should always be better quality using leading edge algorithms. 
- Would Hybrid Auto be just using Lv mode?
- Cloud Raw Processing sounds less useful... maybe DPP in the cloud when you use Canon's cloud storage?
- RF/RF-s lens support (and adapted EF/EF-s) is standard for all R mount bodies.


----------



## navastronia (Oct 14, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> - Has there been any real world advantages to processing Dual Pixel Raw images?
> - A digital teleconverter would be just a cropping tool - perhaps a selectable crop ratio vs current 1.6 crop. Some competitions don't allow significant cropping and especially for underwater photography where you can't change the lens or necessarily get closer then an adjustable crop could be useful but it is pretty niche. Internal upscaling feature would be less likely as post-processing should always be better quality using leading edge algorithms.
> - Would Hybrid Auto be just using Lv mode?
> - Cloud Raw Processing sounds less useful... maybe DPP in the cloud when you use Canon's cloud storage?
> - RF/RF-s lens support (and adapted EF/EF-s) is standard for all R mount bodies.


Yeah, the features list is kinda wack


----------



## Skux (Oct 14, 2022)

KiagiJ said:


> *Low megapixels is not a negative, it's a positive and desirable aspect for low light event or portrait photographers to get the cleanest high iso images*. I chose an R6 over an R5 to get better low light performance, it's a superior camera in this one regard, just like the 6D was over the 5d mk iii. The 6 series has always been about great low light performance, it's always been a superior low light series that's somehow usually overlooked as a worse than 5 series camera, to me it's a better camera for my uses (low light), and cheaper so it's a win win. I just hope with the higher R6 II's 24 megapixels it'll be as iso clean as the R6


This myth is debunked regularly but unfortunately still persists. Higher megapixel cameras only appear noisier because their resolution lets you see more detail. Two identical photos from a 12mp or 50mp camera will capture the same amount of light regardless of how big or small the photosites are.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 14, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Yes, I just meant that you doubt Canon will do that. I kind of think they might.


I was surprised they put the 1D X III sensor in the R6. Perhaps I’ll be so again.


----------



## KiagiJ (Oct 14, 2022)

Skux said:


> This myth is debunked regularly but unfortunately still persists. Higher megapixel cameras only appear noisier because their resolution lets you see more detail. Two identical photos from a 12mp or 50mp camera will capture the same amount of light regardless of how big or small the photosites are.



Oh yeah I forgot I probably watched a Tony Northrup video on this. As long as the sensor size is the same, you can downscale a 45mp R5 to 20mp R6 size and it'll look as clean, apparently. So the upcoming 100-120 megapixel camera will be as clean as an R6 if scaled down to 20mp, that's cool


----------



## KiagiJ (Oct 14, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> It is not technically feasible to get DSLR battery life from a mirrorless camera.



I actually did some wildlife photography today, R7, mechanical shutter to avoid bs electronic warping, over 2000 shots, 2hrs, 1 battery, didn't notice how much drained when ready to leave as it didn't even flash red


----------



## idontshootpeople (Oct 14, 2022)

SimonW said:


> This is exactly where I'm at. Spec-wise the R6 would be great for me but I know I'm going to really miss that top LCD (Coming off a 5D MkIII). Clicked on this hoping it might be making it on, looks like we're going to be disappointed


I thought I would too, but I don't.


----------



## victorshikhman (Oct 14, 2022)

So... any guesses what the R6M1 price will drop to, refurb from Canon? Let's say, a year from now? Because... guys, I know you're all already on to the next thing, but the R6 was an amazing baby 1Dx MK III just yesterday, and for those of us who will never ever pay 1DX/R5 kind of money, the R6M1 might just be the best value refurb body that Canon will have on the market for a long time.


----------



## sanj (Oct 14, 2022)

unfocused said:


> If it works for you, great. But, honestly in my experience (1Dx II, 1Dx III, several 5Ds, R5, R, R3) I have never been able to see a significant difference in noise performance between lower and higher resolution sensors *of the same or similar generation*. I currently shoot an R3 and an R5 side by side and without looking at the EXIF I would be hard pressed to find a difference between the two.


I would take this further and say that viewers would be hard-pressed to find a difference between any of the cameras made in the last 10 years.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Oct 14, 2022)

navastronia said:


> Oh, the best decision I've made here was blocking + muting certain forumers. I think I've had neuro muted for almost 3 years and only unmute him in order to have an argument every once in a while.


I missed Nuero. I havent seen a post from him all year but I barely been here lately.


----------



## jam05 (Oct 14, 2022)

All these specs and the inside information person writes 24mp CMOS Sensor. Omitting the obvious important word "stacked"? An educated guess would be that its not the stacked sensor from the R3 at all. Nobody would forget to accertain that bit of all important information unless they've been living under a technology rock. A plain basic "CMOS Sensor"? Heck at least minimum mid tier devices released at this time should be BSI CMOS. Canon said that they would be rolling out the stacked sensors. Well, rumors stating "CMOS sensor" does very little to confirm that notion has come into reality. And no, resolution numbers prove nada.


----------



## Avenger 2.0 (Oct 14, 2022)

jeffa4444 said:


> Owning the R, R5 and R6 I can honestly say I never miss the top LCD screen when switching between the three cameras.


I always want the camera with top LCD, but I rarely use it 
The R7 is my first one without top LCD and not really missing it either.



jam05 said:


> All these specs and the inside information person writes 24mp CMOS Sensor. Omitting the obvious important word "stacked"? An educated guess would be that its not the stacked sensor from the R3 at all. Nobody would forget to accertain that bit of all important information unless they've been living under a technology rock.


Indeed, if that was the case they would say 'stacked' or 'R3 sensor' in leaked specs. Would also be a stupid business move from Canon.
They are even afraid to give us a ~30mpix sensor with R6 II in case that would hurt R5 sales. So for that reason we certainly won't see a R II with ~30mpix sensor priced below the R6. Too bad, because 30mpix with my Canon EOS R is really the sweet spot for everything. Just wish it had the R7 AF


----------



## adrian_bacon (Oct 14, 2022)

Nice. Basically a mini R3, minus some of the more top end features, but for general purpose shooting, all the important bits look to be there. This should reduce costs a bit for Canon since they can stop making the 1DxMIII/R6 sensor and basically have 3 full frame sensors, the R3/R6II, the R5, and the RP sensor (unless they've already discontinued the RP, then just two full frame sensors), and two crop sensors, the R7 and R10. 

The R8 rumor I'm finding to be a bit less likely now especially with the R6II seemingly coming, unless it's meant to be a very entry level full frame camera like the RP. What I'd now like to see is the R1, and a high resolution R5, like 100+MP. That'd be awesome. The R1 should be a stacked BSI version of the R5, the high resolution R5 should have at least the same pixel density as the R7, if not more.


----------



## Can99 (Oct 14, 2022)

Avenger 2.0 said:


> Indeed, if that was the case they would say 'stacked' or 'R3 sensor' in leaked specs.



Of course they would. EOS R3 has a stacked sensor and the R6 II does not. Such details can hardly be left out.


----------



## photophil (Oct 14, 2022)

The digital teleconverter would only be a function where it crops in and enlarges the image based on some kind of in-camera algorithm, right? At least that's how Olympus does it in a couple of models.
What is hybrid auto supposed to mean though?
Not exactly a significant improvement over the original R6, so might indeed just be Canon switching to a different sensor due for some kind of production reason?


----------



## Sigurd2 (Oct 14, 2022)

I hear everybody else is saying that a dedicated mode dial is faster and easier.
But the only thing I miss after upgrading from the R to the R6 is the mode button, which enabled switching mode without taking my eye away from the viewfinder. The mode dial is also guess and try when you’re in the dark.

Since they depend on each other, I hope the R6 II comes with top LCD and mode button


----------



## Marco Birri (Oct 14, 2022)

Sigurd2 said:


> I hear everybody else is saying that a dedicated mode dial is faster and easier.
> But the only thing I miss after upgrading from the R to the R6 is the mode button, which enabled switching mode without taking my eye away from the viewfinder. The mode dial is also guess and try when you’re in the dark.
> 
> Since they depend on each other, I hope the R6 II comes with top LCD and mode button


Wait what!? Just turn the button and look here (number 4, from the R6 manual)


----------



## Gonzaga Lopes (Oct 14, 2022)

When will canon give the possibility to record 120p with sound? As already happens with models from Sony and Lumix
That would be a big improvement


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 14, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I wouldn’t say I ‘take issue’ with the idea, in the sense that I have a problem with them doing so. I doubt Canon will (and maybe that’s exactly what you meant), but as I stated if they do that’s great for R6II buyers.


We don't know what the bottleneck in camera production is and we also don't know how the R3 sensor production has been ramped or scheduled.

Suppose the bottleneck is the metalwork, the sensor production can outpace the body production. That would build up the needed buffer for using the sensor both in the R3 and R6II.

If someone has some insight in how many parts per month Canon can build, please let us now!


----------



## Rumours not rumors (Oct 14, 2022)

If Canon does release a Mk II of the R6, and if it does have a jump to 24MP, so long as the low light / high ISO performance is at least as good as the original R6 (but preferably better), and the Mk II still accepts an optional battery grip, then I'm sold. It'd be bonser if it also gets a top LCD. I don't give a rat's fat clack if the sensor is back stacked or front stacked or sideways diagonally stacked; if it can perform even slightly better in high ISO's as the R6 I'll be as happy as a rat with a gold tooth. Funny how people assume BSI must be better because it's the latest marketing buzzline yet many don't consider the possibility that maybe the other makers haven't been able to figure out how to improve CMOS sensor performance so they have gone down a different path as a Plan B (happy to be proven wrong, just keeping an open mind). Reminds me of the absurd gimmicks from CD player makers in the 90's claiming things like stable platters improved sound despite the data stream from the laser was being digitally pushed into a buffer for CIRC error correction for deinterleaving then clocked out by a quartz crystal timebase so as long as the buffer never underflowed or overflowed, the speed of the disc could fluctuate all day and make zero impact on the audio quality. We shouldn't get hung up on catchy marketing names that mean diddly squat if the low light performance is on point. </ falls off soap box>


----------



## bergstrom (Oct 14, 2022)

Hopefully they don't screw up the wheel placement like they did the R7


----------



## danfaz (Oct 14, 2022)

Gonzaga Lopes said:


> When will canon give the possibility to record 120p with sound? As already happens with models from Sony and Lumix
> That would be a big improvement


Genuine question from a non-video guy. Why would you want to record audio in slow motion video?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 14, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> Hopefully they don't screw up the wheel placement like they did the R7


Are you saying that as someone who uses an R7, or someone who's seen pictures and read reviews of it?


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 14, 2022)

danfaz said:


> Genuine question from a non-video guy. Why would you want to record audio in slow motion video?


If you want to ramp it to or from normal speed, having audio is a nice bonus.


----------



## Bob Howland (Oct 14, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Are you saying that as someone who uses an R7, or someone who's seen pictures and read reviews of it?


I'm not him/her/it but I'm saying it as an R7 owner. I have to constantly be aware where my right thumb is so that I don't inadvertently change the exposure compensation.


----------



## NorskHest (Oct 14, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Just to set the record straight. The comment that got you into trouble was the suggestion that Canon failed to accurately predict sales of the R3 and had a bunch of R3 sensors sitting around that they needed to use up, so they were putting them into the R6. Clearly a ridiculous proposition since it would require that Canon is so poorly managed that they would be unable to accurately predict demand and would compound that error by continuing to make sensors which there was no demand for. @neuroanatomist pointed out that the total sales of the R6 far exceeds those of the R3, so using up sensors in that manner makes even less sense, since they could not possibly have that many sensors sitting around
> 
> While @neuroanatomist takes issue with the idea that Canon might use the same sensor in the R6II. I don't really have an opinion on that. In fact I think it is quite likely that they might use the same or similar sensor. But, that wasn't the point, although you have since tried to pretend it was.


Oh I’m in trouble? Canon absolutely could have an error in their calculations. You keyboard warriors here act as if canon is god and knows all. You sit upon your keyboard throwns with all of your insider wisdom( that was sarcasm ) and think you know all. All I did is throw out a possibility that I knew that Mr. narcissist would respond too.
Also is it really a ridiculous proposition as you say? I don’t think I ever said there wasn’t demand for a sensor but there is not the same demand for that camera body as the r6. 
I love how you guys all jump in defense of the narcissist it’s really entertaining. Cameras are fun go play with them stop defending a narcissist and realize at the end of the day nothing that is said on this forum actually matters especially what narcissist thinks.


----------



## rpiotr01 (Oct 14, 2022)

I'm a 5DIII shooter looking to switch to mirrorless. Was looking at the R6 but - illogically and emotionally, I admit - couldn't justify the downgrade, however slight, in MP. I have no problem with resolution of my current camera but felt odd to spend money on a new camera just to go backwards. If they do bump up the R6II to ~24, that probably seals the deal for me. Seems like an awesome stills camera otherwise.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 14, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> Oh I’m in trouble? Canon absolutely could have an error in their calculations. You keyboard warriors here act as if canon is god and knows all. You sit upon your keyboard throwns with all of your insider wisdom( that was sarcasm ) and think you know all. All I did is throw out a possibility that I knew that Mr. narcissist would respond too.
> Also is it really a ridiculous proposition as you say? I don’t think I ever said there wasn’t demand for a sensor but there is not the same demand for that camera body as the r6.
> I love how you guys all jump in defense of the narcissist it’s really entertaining. Cameras are fun go play with them stop defending a narcissist and realize at the end of the day nothing that is said on this forum actually matters especially what narcissist thinks.


It's sad how logic offends some people. Or maybe they just can't handle someone who doesn't automatically believe every asinine idea they post.

Watching them squirm and try to insult their way out of their own foolishness is at least mildly amusing.


----------



## Tom W (Oct 14, 2022)

Without reading the entire thread, would the "digital teleconverter" simply be the old "digital zoom" which is essentially just a cropping of the image, or is there possibly some sort of higher pixel density mode available?


----------



## Exploreshootshare (Oct 14, 2022)

What does one expect from the "Digital Tele-Converter"? I read it is a feature on the R3, but how does work? Is it useful? Furthermore: 

What converter range does (R3) will (r6mkii) it have? 1.4 or 2.0? 
Does the MP count stay the same? 
Do you lose a stop (or two stops) of light when shooting? 

Thx for any reply


----------



## Katootje (Oct 14, 2022)

davidcl0nel said:


> It works for me on R5 to peer it with my smartphone by bluetooth and use the Canon App. I use the phone anyway for tracking with a Openstreetmap, but with this I can get the coords into the RAW.
> And it doesn't use very much energy in the camera, like the 6D where you can forgot to disable it while sleep to have a fast resync....
> 
> And my phone use 4 different "GPS" systems, Glonass, Galileo and Baidou also...


Thanks for your info: I will have a look at this, but I do not use my Phone that much and often forget it. So then it lies at home whilst I am at a different place.... And I do not know if this works with my cheap Samsung J6. All in all, I think I prefer an in camera GPS. I do not understand why Canon skips the GPS: there was a time that even every compact camera had GPS....


----------



## Katootje (Oct 14, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> The GP-E2 will likely still work in the hot shoe.


Yes, I know the GP-E2 will still work on the new cameras (I saw it used on the R5 by someone I met at a festival), but I sold my GP-E2 with my 5DMk3 and Canon does not produce the GP-E2 anymore. Even that seems not worth the trouble for Canon....


----------



## vignes (Oct 14, 2022)

pashevich said:


> R6 mark1 has the 1Dx Mark3 sensor, top of the line to relise date. It is logical to assume, that R6 Mark2 will have top of the line 24mp bsi stacked sensor from R3.
> Wish it will have top lcd and mode dial like R5.
> 
> R6M2 has to compete with Sony A9 line, so it needs fast sensor, capable of shooting without mechanical shutter.


Can't see how Canon is going to use a stacked sensor and keep the price same i.e. sub $2.5K. A9 price point is much higher. 
1DX III has non stacked FSI sensor and cost less. DSLR is phasing out and it won't impact the line if they used the sensor in a mid tier R body. But using a stacked sensor from a high tier R body into a lower tier R body is entirely a different thing.
Stacked sensor is costly and it doesn't make sense to use in enthusiast body or mid tier product. this would most likely be a new non stacked BSI sensor.


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 14, 2022)

Katootje said:


> Yes, I know the GP-E2 will still work on the new cameras (I saw it used on the R5 by someone I met at a festival), but I sold my GP-E2 with my 5DMk3 and Canon does not produce the GP-E2 anymore. Even that seems not worth the trouble for Canon....


I've been looking at the Solmeta clone in case my GP-E2 breaks down: https://www.solmeta.com/Product/show/id/31

The handful of reviews that I could find imply that it works just like the GP-E2, but I don't have any first hand experience.


----------



## navastronia (Oct 14, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> Oh I’m in trouble? Canon absolutely could have an error in their calculations. You keyboard warriors here act as if canon is god and knows all. You sit upon your keyboard throwns with all of your insider wisdom( that was sarcasm ) and think you know all. All I did is throw out a possibility that I knew that Mr. narcissist would respond too.
> Also is it really a ridiculous proposition as you say? I don’t think I ever said there wasn’t demand for a sensor but there is not the same demand for that camera body as the r6.
> I love how you guys all jump in defense of the narcissist it’s really entertaining. Cameras are fun go play with them stop defending a narcissist and realize at the end of the day nothing that is said on this forum actually matters especially what narcissist thinks.



@unfocused wrote a reasonable post and I fail to see what you're adding to the conversation here.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 14, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> I am comparing two spec lists, that are rated differently by Craig/CR.
> 
> If that [CR3] rated R6 MkII is a "Fact", then the [CR1] spec of a possible R8 with almost the same data, but a higher MP sensor cannot come true.
> Those are too close together than giving market segments for two bodies being so close.
> ...


I am not saying this will happen, but having both an R6 II and R6 S would be pretty sweet.
No way that I believe those R8 specs.
They seem superior to the R6 II in every way,
It seems like that CR1 should be a CR0 now.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 14, 2022)

vignes said:


> Can't see how Canon is going to use a stacked sensor and keep the price same i.e. sub $2.5K.


I would expect the price to go up a few hundred dollars.
It is not like the R6 stopped selling.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 14, 2022)

Skux said:


> This myth is debunked regularly but unfortunately still persists. Higher megapixel cameras only appear noisier because their resolution lets you see more detail. Two identical photos from a 12mp or 50mp camera will capture the same amount of light regardless of how big or small the photosites are.


The R6 is better in low light than the R5.
The R3 is better in low light than the R6.
It is not a total myth.
It is not 100% true either.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 14, 2022)

KiagiJ said:


> Oh yeah I forgot I probably watched a Tony Northrup video on this. As long as the sensor size is the same, you can downscale a 45mp R5 to 20mp R6 size and it'll look as clean, apparently. So the upcoming 100-120 megapixel camera will be as clean as an R6 if scaled down to 20mp, that's cool


Sites like Photons to Photos always downscale images before comparing them.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 14, 2022)

victorshikhman said:


> So... any guesses what the R6M1 price will drop to, refurb from Canon? Let's say, a year from now? Because... guys, I know you're all already on to the next thing, but the R6 was an amazing baby 1Dx MK III just yesterday, and for those of us who will never ever pay 1DX/R5 kind of money, the R6M1 might just be the best value refurb body that Canon will have on the market for a long time.


It is not like the R6 is just sitting on shelves.
I would not expect the price to drop very much unless Canon just wants to aggressively move units.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 14, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Sites like Photons to Photos always downscale images before comparing them.


That is basically along the right lines. What they do is to look at the images from them at the same size in inches or cm and distance.


----------



## victorshikhman (Oct 14, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> It is not like the R6 is just sitting on shelves.
> I would not expect the price to drop very much unless Canon just wants to aggressively move units.


When the R6ii is on the market, priced at the R6's current $2500'ish, a year from now, you don't think R6 refurb bodies direct from canon will drop below the current $2250? I would think in time for the '23-24 holiday season, the R6 refurb will be around $1800. You disagree?


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 14, 2022)

victorshikhman said:


> When the R6ii is on the market, priced at the R6's current $2500'ish, a year from now, you don't think R6 refurb bodies direct from canon will drop below the current $2250? I would think in time for the '23-24 holiday season, the R6 refurb will be around $1800. You disagree?


You are not crazy to think that.
I do not think it will drop quite that low, but it would not shock me.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 14, 2022)

Katootje said:


> Thanks for your info: I will have a look at this, but I do not use my Phone that much and often forget it. So then it lies at home whilst I am at a different place.... And I do not know if this works with my cheap Samsung J6. All in all, I think I prefer an in camera GPS. I do not understand why Canon skips the GPS: there was a time that even every compact camera had GPS....


A few possibilities: battery drain, differing regulations in different territories, or just that so few people actually use it/most people who do have a phone.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 14, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> The R6 is better in low light than the R5.


On an image level, or a pixel level?


----------



## bergstrom (Oct 14, 2022)

rpiotr01 said:


> I'm a 5DIII shooter looking to switch to mirrorless. Was looking at the R6 but - illogically and emotionally, I admit - couldn't justify the downgrade, however slight, in MP. I have no problem with resolution of my current camera but felt odd to spend money on a new camera just to go backwards. If they do bump up the R6II to ~24, that probably seals the deal for me. Seems like an awesome stills camera otherwise.



I'm in the same boat but might hold out for R8/9


----------



## usern4cr (Oct 14, 2022)

danfaz said:


> Genuine question from a non-video guy. Why would you want to record audio in slow motion video?


1) When viewing movies at 2x slowed down speed, the days when you just played back audio an octave lower/higher are gone. Well known software can play audio at various speeds while keeping the same pitch. There are plenty of times when there is audio without much, if any, speech going on. In those cases the played back audio, at the same pitch, would sound natural enough.
2) There will be times when you want to play back 120fps movies at 120fps, based on future technology becoming more mainstream, and having the audio gives you that ability.
3) You could play back the 120fps movie at normal 60fps speed (no slow motion) by 2x downsampling time-wise the video & audio, and then you're getting the same video with sound as if it was 60fps to start with. But when there's something you want to show in slow motion, you still have the slow motion smooth video for it and the "as good as you can make it" audio to go with it.
4) Audio takes almost no storage compared to video, so why not record it? It won't make much difference to the storage needed. And then you can get the marketing buzz at the very least.


----------



## SUNDOG04 (Oct 14, 2022)

mpb001 said:


> I agree that the camera will be a general use camera but not a winner for landscapes and currently Canon does not have a higher mp camera between the R6 and R5 for people who want more resolution without spending $4000 for an R5.


For those of us interested in primarily landscape, Canon bodies are overpriced. Although I think they are better overall. Sony has a 33mp sensor a7 IV for the same price as an R6 and the Nikon Z7 II Iis just $400 more. Unless something changes drastically I all but wrote off Canon mirrorless….higher cost bodies, not neediing f1.2 lenses for landscape or cheaper lenses they are crappy without correction. No in between lenses, no choice of third party. My Canon gear still performes perfectly, but unless something changes, Canon is not in my future. I have not given up yet.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 14, 2022)

SUNDOG04 said:


> For those of us interested in primarily landscape, Canon bodies are overpriced. Although I think they are better overall. Sony has a 33mp sensor a7 IV for the same price as an R6 and the Nikon Z7 II Iis just $400 more. Unless something changes drastically I all but wrote off Canon mirrorless….higher cost bodies, not neediing f1.2 lenses for landscape or cheaper lenses they are crappy without correction. No in between lenses, no choice of third party. My Canon gear still performes perfectly, but unless something changes, Canon is not in my future. I have not given up yet.


The 30mp R seems like it would be a good option. At $1,600 it's far less expensive, can use any EF lens with an adapter and if you aren't shooting sports, birds in flight or other fast action, it performs very well. Right now you can buy it new for less than a refurbished model.


----------



## mpb001 (Oct 14, 2022)

SUNDOG04 said:


> For those of us interested in primarily landscape, Canon bodies are overpriced. Although I think they are better overall. Sony has a 33mp sensor a7 IV for the same price as an R6 and the Nikon Z7 II Iis just $400 more. Unless something changes drastically I all but wrote off Canon mirrorless….higher cost bodies, not neediing f1.2 lenses for landscape or cheaper lenses they are crappy without correction. No in between lenses, no choice of third party. My Canon gear still performes perfectly, but unless something changes, Canon is not in my future. I have not given up yet.


I do like Canon and do not really want to switch. I guess there really isn’t enough of a compelling reason to upgrade. I wont buy any mirrorless without IBIS and no less than 30 MP. For now and into the near future my 5DIV can accommodate all of my photo needs.


----------



## Tirmite (Oct 14, 2022)

SimonW said:


> This is exactly where I'm at. Spec-wise the R6 would be great for me but I know I'm going to really miss that top LCD (Coming off a 5D MkIII). Clicked on this hoping it might be making it on, looks like we're going to be disappointed


I can't say what's right for you or others, but I don't miss the top LCD at all. I shoot with a 1Dx MkII, R bodies (the 30MP first mirrorless), an R5, and an R6. All the info you need is either in the viewfinder or right there on the rear LCD and much larger and better illuminated (white numbers and letters on a black field vs. a dimly lit, tiny LCD grayish background with black text). Yes, we get used to having a top LCD, but it's really not a big deal in practical terms since the EVF in a mirrorless offers so much info (and it's customizable whereas the top LCD isn't) and since the top LCD's on Canon's mirrorless bodies tend to be quite small, especially compared to the rear screen which is just the twist-of-your-wrist away from quick viewing. The R6 Mark I is a nice camera and I'm sure the Mark II will be even better. My R6 is permanently dedicated to the 28-70mm since that lens does not have built in IS. I've never regretted not having a top LCD. Rarely use my R5. Just don't NEED that much resolution for 99% of the things I shoot but got it in case I wanted to do 4K 120 fps or maybe 8K or maybe architectural, but I have dedicated Sony A7r bodies for that type of work. Haven't found "the perfect" one camera yet, just like the perfect car. But at that price point the R6 is a very decent camera and I could have 2 or 3 R bodies or R6 bodies for what a "flagship" model costs and to me it makes more sense to have multiple bodies that maybe are missing a bell or a whistle instead of just ONE body that supposedly does everything well.... and that's arguable. ALSO... with computational software like Topaz's Gigapixel, you can effectively double your resolution if you need to print LARGE and it really is impressive. So 20-24 megapixels is plently for all but the most demanding jobs or projects. Pay about a couple hundred bucks (think I paid $150 for a bundle that includes a de-noise program and a sharpening program, too) for software and save hundreds or thousands by purchasing a camera with less MP's. Point being: don't talk yourself out of an R6. Rent one and play with it. I bet you'll never miss that one fairly insignificant feature.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 14, 2022)

Tirmite said:


> I shoot with a 1Dx MkII... Pay a couple hundred bucks for that software and save hundreds or thousands by purchasing a camera with less MP's.


Is that how it works with the 20 MP 1D X II?


----------



## mpmark (Oct 15, 2022)

SUNDOG04 said:


> For those of us interested in primarily landscape, Canon bodies are overpriced. Although I think they are better overall. Sony has a 33mp sensor a7 IV for the same price as an R6 and the Nikon Z7 II Iis just $400 more. Unless something changes drastically I all but wrote off Canon mirrorless….higher cost bodies, not neediing f1.2 lenses for landscape or cheaper lenses they are crappy without correction. No in between lenses, no choice of third party. My Canon gear still performes perfectly, but unless something changes, Canon is not in my future. I have not given up yet.



As a wildlife photographer, the cameras are absolutely worth the price, compared to a A1 or Z9 its a bargain! I use the R5 for wildlife and I've tried other systems, nothing can touch the AF. If I was a landscape photographer the R5 is overkill with the AF system. I'd get a GFX setup and never look back.


----------



## Tirmite (Oct 15, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Is that how it works with the 20 MP 1D X II?


HA! Well, that's how it works with any file from any of my cameras when a client wants to print something large. These days that rarely happens since most viewing is on devices or small screens. But I get your humor! I love the 1Dx's and wished for a "studio" version for years until Gigapixel AI came out and I realized 20-24MP's is just fine for almost anything these days, especially when you can double the "preceived" resolution with a little software magic. Paying nearly $7K for that body was painful, though. I purchased the R6 hoping it might be a good backup for the 1Dx. It's a great little camera but you DO get what you pay for. The 1Dx has incredible focusing speed and accuracy, short lag time when the shutter is tripped, batteries that last a long time, built like a tank, etc. Recently picked up a second one sold by Canon USA for $4,000 that was "refurbished". It was absolutely flawless with a shutter count of less than 1000 actuations, so I'm pretty much convinced they were just liquidating what was in the warehouse. At that price it was a bargain and those bodies are perfect for EF white lenses that have noit been replaced by RF lenses yet.


----------



## Chig (Oct 15, 2022)

I've been considering the R7 or the R6 as a replacement of my 7Dmark ii and if the R6 has a BSI stacked sensor and the better auto focus from the R3 & R7 and perhaps 30fps electronic then I'd probably buy it instead of the R7 as this would be better for my bird photography


----------



## David - Sydney (Oct 15, 2022)

usern4cr said:


> 1) When viewing movies at 2x slowed down speed, the days when you just played back audio an octave higher are gone. Well known software can play audio at various speeds while keeping the same pitch. There are plenty of times when there is audio without much, if any, speech going on. In those cases the played back audio, at the same pitch, would sound natural enough.
> 2) There will be times when you want to play back 120fps movies at 120fps, based on future technology becoming more mainstream, and having the audio gives you that ability.
> 3) You could play back the 120fps movie at normal 60fps speed (no slow motion) by 2x downsampling time-wise the video & audio, and then you're getting the same video with sound as if it was 60fps to start with. But when there's something you want to show in slow motion, you still have the slow motion smooth video for it and the "as good as you can make it" audio to go with it.
> 4) Audio takes almost no storage compared to video, so why not record it? It won't make much difference to the storage needed. And then you can get the marketing buzz at the very least.


Is the sound issue because canon records the file as 4K/30 for playback purposes?


----------



## Franklyok (Oct 15, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Yeah, I have no need for an R6 II, but an R6 C would be awfully tempting.


And ofcause it would be nice if Canon would cooperate with netflix. So with the ”Netflix approved” award on day 1 would help the sales a lot.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 15, 2022)

Chig said:


> I've been considering the R7 or the R6 as a replacement of my 7Dmark ii and if the R6 has a BSI stacked sensor and the better auto focus from the R3 & R7 and perhaps 30fps electronic then I'd probably buy it instead of the R7 as this would be better for my bird photography


If you are a "birds in flight nutter" then maybe the R7 is not the best for you, though it is pretty good, but if you are mainly perched birds the the R7 is remarkable. I wouldn't swap my R5 for a 24 Mpx R6 II for BIF as the R5 has unerring AF and the extra pixels mean I can use a shorter, lighter lens for the fast erratic flying critters.


----------



## mxwphoto (Oct 15, 2022)

rpiotr01 said:


> I'm a 5DIII shooter looking to switch to mirrorless. Was looking at the R6 but - illogically and emotionally, I admit - couldn't justify the downgrade, however slight, in MP. I have no problem with resolution of my current camera but felt odd to spend money on a new camera just to go backwards. If they do bump up the R6II to ~24, that probably seals the deal for me. Seems like an awesome stills camera otherwise.


You only think of it being backwards looking at the megapixel spec. Try shooting with R6 with fast glass and editing the files.

I went from a 5D II and was hesitant about giving up OVF, but once I tried the R6, firstly the AF just blew me away. Keeper rates at f1.2 on fast moving subjects went from a prayer for luck to about 80%+ (in servo AF no less) with hardly any effort, and my goodness the amount you can push that file in the shadows and highlights is night and day.

Once you experience it, that 4mp difference will be the last thing on your mind.


----------



## Bob Howland (Oct 15, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> You only think of it being backwards looking at the megapixel spec. Try shooting with R6 with fast glass and editing the files.
> 
> I went from a 5D II and was hesitant about giving up OVF, but once I tried the R6, firstly the AF just blew me away. Keeper rates at f1.2 on fast moving subjects went from a prayer for luck to about 80%+ (in servo AF no less) with hardly any effort, and my goodness the amount you can push that file in the shadows and highlights is night and day.
> 
> Once you experience it, that 4mp difference will be the last thing on your mind.


Going from the 5D AF to the 5D3 AF was a revelation as well. Going from the 5D3 AF to the R7 AF has been much more problematic. I not accustomed to and don't particularly like the whole idea of focus tracking. I'm not chasing overactive 5-year olds trying to keep their eyes in focus. And very often what I want in focus isn't the closest thing to me.


----------



## john1970 (Oct 15, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> Going from the 5D AF to the 5D3 AF was a revelation as well. Going from the 5D3 AF to the R7 AF has been much more problematic. I not accustomed to and don't particularly like the whole idea of focus tracking. I'm not chasing overactive 5-year olds trying to keep their eyes in focus. And very often what I want in focus isn't the closest thing to me.


Hi Bob,

Have you tried using Spot AF or 1-Point AF with the AE lock button assigned as Register/recall shooting function? I have this enabled on my R3 and it allows me to move the AF point to wherever I want in the frame and simply lock focus by pressing the AE lock button. I use this function a lot when I do not need focus tracking or when I want to manually determine where the focus point should be. 

Good luck,

John


----------



## bradpaulp (Oct 15, 2022)

I wonder what the record limit / heat limit will look like on the new version.

The 29:59 limit doesn’t bother me as much as the “you need to cool your camera for 10 minutes to get 10 minutes more recording”.


----------



## LeeBabySimms (Oct 15, 2022)

We have three R6's that we've rung out for wedding work. Such a great camera. I'd welcome a few more megapickles. 24 seems like a golilocks amount. My 6k Apple monitor can't take anymore - they'd be wasted.

Regarding the top screen, the R6 is faster than the R5 to go from mode to mode. It's one click on the big knob, while on the R5 you have to press MODE, then twist. Milleseconds actually count when you're shooting a sparkler exit and need to go from C1 (set for Av & Auto ISO) to M where you're brining the light. 

I had every 5D and 7D prior to the R6 and NEVER miss the info screen. Actually prefer the cleaner retro look of the R6, in addition to the faster mode change.


----------



## Jupiter_GP (Oct 15, 2022)

I miss the fact that when I connect an additional preview monitor to HDMI, so that the camera can continue to record on cards. Only an external recorder in the current version. Better to have it recorded in the camera, and if necessary, also on an external recorder. Not everyone needs 10bits for HDMi. In the Sony A7III I connect the HDMI cable and I can still record on cards, and not in the R6. Stupid. Maybe it will be enough for them to do it in the new firmwer. Maybe 8 bits, whatever it is.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 15, 2022)

LeeBabySimms said:


> Regarding the top screen, the R6 is faster than the R5 to go from mode to mode. It's one click on the big knob, while on the R5 you have to press MODE, then twist. Milleseconds actually count when you're shooting a sparkler exit and need to go from C1 (set for Av & Auto ISO) to M where you're brining the light.


The R5 is faster to change mode if you customise the buttons. Th M-fn on mine is programmed is to toggle through C1, C2, C3 and current setting. Because of that, I find the R6 and R7 clunkier and slower for mode change than the R5 as it takes just lifting and tapping with one finger, and I have more than 10 years of muscle memory of turning a mechanical mode dial.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 15, 2022)

Do people change mode a lot? Genuine question.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 15, 2022)

LeeBabySimms said:


> Regarding the top screen, the R6 is faster than the R5 to go from mode to mode. It's one click on the big knob, while on the R5 you have to press MODE, then twist. Milleseconds actually count when you're shooting a sparkler exit and need to go from C1 (set for Av & Auto ISO) to M where you're brining the light.


I use the M.Fn button to switch modes on my R3, as I did on my 1D X. That’s possible on the R5, too. It doesn’t get much faster than pressing the little button right next to the shutter release, it’s definitely faster than reaching up to twist that big dial. I don’t think it’s possible to assign mode switching to a button press on a camera with a labeled mode dial.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 15, 2022)

scyrene said:


> Do people change mode a lot? Genuine question.


Depends on what I’m shooting. With birds and people, I do change modes frequently depending on whether they’re still (single point AF, slower shutter) or moving (Servo tracking, faster shutter).


----------



## bergstrom (Oct 15, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> You only think of it being backwards looking at the megapixel spec. Try shooting with R6 with fast glass and editing the files.
> 
> I went from a 5D II and was hesitant about giving up OVF, but once I tried the R6, firstly the AF just blew me away. Keeper rates at f1.2 on fast moving subjects went from a prayer for luck to about 80%+ (in servo AF no less) with hardly any effort, and my goodness the amount you can push that file in the shadows and highlights is night and day.
> 
> Once you experience it, that 4mp difference will be the last thing on your mind.


amazing AF doesn't equate with 80% keepers. If its that great, shouldn't it be at least 90%


----------



## usern4cr (Oct 15, 2022)

scyrene said:


> Do people change mode a lot? Genuine question.


I don't know about other people, but I rarely change modes. I am obviously not an expert in using the customized settings, as I have found them confusing to use and gave up. As a result I may sometimes "use" the top LCD since it's there, but it's more of a waste of space for me since that area could be better used by other things, and its usage could be embedded within the menu system.


----------



## masterpix (Oct 15, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> [CR3] here makes the rumoured R8 specs being dead or maybe just another prototype variation of an R6 II.
> 
> And the step forward is quite small, as already mentioned.


The R6 is an excellent camera, not sure that within its "range" there is a lot to improve. Not sure about the concept of "digital teleconverter".


----------



## AlanF (Oct 15, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I use the M.Fn button to switch modes on my R3, as I did on my 1D X. That’s possible on the R5, too. It doesn’t get much faster than pressing the little button right next to the shutter release, it’s definitely faster than reaching up to twist that big dial. I don’t think it’s possible to assign mode switching to a button press on a camera with a labeled mode dial.


You can't assign mode switching to a button on the R6 and R7.


----------



## HMC11 (Oct 15, 2022)

jam05 said:


> All these specs and the inside information person writes 24mp CMOS Sensor. Omitting the obvious important word "stacked"? An educated guess would be that its not the stacked sensor from the R3 at all. Nobody would forget to accertain that bit of all important information unless they've been living under a technology rock. A plain basic "CMOS Sensor"? Heck at least minimum mid tier devices released at this time should be BSI CMOS. Canon said that they would be rolling out the stacked sensors. Well, rumors stating "CMOS sensor" does very little to confirm that notion has come into reality. And no, resolution numbers prove nada.


Apart from the 24mp sensor in the R3, there does not seem to be any other modern FF 24mp sensor currently being produced. If so, which is more likely: Canon start another modern 24mp sensor production line for an upgraded camera, or use the R3 sensor which is currently being manufactured? I do not know the answer as it would surely depend on, amongst other things, which is more cost effective or what their long-term plans are. I would hazard a guess that it would be more convenient to use the R3 sensor, and bump the price of the R6II closer to $3k.


----------



## masterpix (Oct 15, 2022)

speg said:


> As someone about to upgrade from Rp to R6 within the next 6-8 weeks… I have no idea what to do


The R6 is a wonderful camera, and the mark II don't look as huge step forward in this aspect, so I would recomend to get the R6 now, and wait for the mark 3..


----------



## AlanF (Oct 15, 2022)

scyrene said:


> Do people change mode a lot? Genuine question.


It's very useful for bird photography when you have to be quick at changing settings. On my R5, C1 is for perched birds with preset iso, wide open aperture and auto shutter speed at H+ in EFCS. C2 is for BIF at 1/3200s and ES at 20 fps, C3 is for low light perched birds, and the next click goes into FV for manual settings. On the R7, C1 is for perched birds with low speed ES, C2 for BIF at 30 fps in ES and 1/3200, C3 is 1/3200 and high fps mechanical shutter to avoid rolling shutter.


----------



## masterpix (Oct 15, 2022)

usern4cr said:


> Hopefully the R6II will have a BSI 24MP sensor, which would make it a great camera at that form factor & price point.
> 
> Now, (yawn), are they _*ever*_ going to come out with a R5 II? Geez...


They will make R5 mark 2 one day, not so far away, but the R6 and R5 are as excellent as they are right not, not sure why the need to make the mark-2 came out so soon.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 15, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> amazing AF doesn't equate with 80% keepers. If its that great, shouldn't it be at least 90%


What is the logical reason for "at least 90%"? I can understand "100%" being the hallmark of amazing and being an absolute value, but anything below that is purely subjective and depends on what the subjects are. For example, for a lazy heron drifting across the sky, I would get close to 100% keepers with just about every DSLR I have used, but for some subjects just a few keepers would be amazing, like a hunting dragonfly or swallow in flight.


----------



## TracyBurchPhotos (Oct 15, 2022)

I love my R6 excited to see what the mark 2 will look like. Hopefully slightly more megapixels like 30 or more.
-Tracy
Vail wedding photographer


----------



## mxwphoto (Oct 15, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> amazing AF doesn't equate with 80% keepers. If its that great, shouldn't it be at least 90%


Please note that I qualified the statement with razor thin DOF of f1.2 on fast moving subjects. Think kids, pets, etc. On 5D II's antiquated 9 point af that is basically spray and pray, and MAYBE you can get one to two out of 10.

If you don't shoot such demanding subjects and have no need for it, then certainly do not get it. But it sounds like you have not had the pleasure to try it yet, which comes highly recommended.


----------



## GoldWing (Oct 15, 2022)

dennishensphoto said:


> I'm happy to see a new version of the R6, but no idea what to think of this  Maybe form factor of the R5 with the screen on top, better EVF, bigger screen, slight bump in megapixels.... might still be ok, but why not the 30mp sensor then...


Canon will get you to buy the 30MP ver. in 8 months after you buy the 24MP ver. Save your money, wait! Canon will run out of these cheap sensors soon. Then you'll get more value.


----------



## mb66energy (Oct 15, 2022)

If it has R7-like buttons/controls, Video-Photo-OFF-Switch with two separated custom banks, R7-AF and auto leveling it might be a sure buy instead of a 2nd R7:
100-400 (160-640) on the R7 and 16-36 on the R6 ii would be great for me - swapping the lenses would give a narrower range with a smaller gap like 26-55 equiv + 100-400 and 1-2 extra stops for the tele.


----------



## mb66energy (Oct 15, 2022)

speg said:


> As someone about to upgrade from Rp to R6 within the next 6-8 weeks… I have no idea what to do


I stumbled soon over a feature in the R7 called auto level - it rotates the sensor by use of the IBIS actors to bring it into a horizontal position (+/- 3° or so) and it is absolutely stunning. No longer checking the markers of the level display and no level display in the viewfinder. For me it would make a difference because it avoids one of my most prominent "errors".


----------



## unfocused (Oct 15, 2022)

scyrene said:


> Do people change mode a lot? Genuine question.


Not me. I set it to shutter priority and leave it there 90% of the time. Only change it for studio work, when I switch to M.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 15, 2022)

GoldWing said:


> ...Save your money, wait! Canon will run out of these cheap sensors soon...


The idea that Canon has a bunch of extra sensors just sitting around waiting to be put into new camera models is pure bonkers.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 15, 2022)

AlanF said:


> It's very useful for bird photography when you have to be quick at changing settings. On my R5, C1 is for perched birds with preset iso, wide open aperture and auto shutter speed at H+ in EFCS. C2 is for BIF at 1/3200s and ES at 20 fps, C3 is for low light perched birds, and the next click goes into FV for manual settings. On the R7, C1 is for perched birds with low speed ES, C2 for BIF at 30 fps in ES and 1/3200, C3 is 1/3200 and high fps mechanical shutter to avoid rolling shutter.


I did wonder. I never learned how to set up the custom modes, I'm permanently in M and just manually change the shutter speed, ISO, AF mode as required. I'm sure your way is more efficient, but am I too stubborn to change now?


----------



## danfaz (Oct 15, 2022)

scyrene said:


> Do people change mode a lot? Genuine question.


I do. Av typically for portraits, Tv for wildlife, manual for macro or event shooting (I'm all over the place LOL).


----------



## EverydayPhotographer (Oct 15, 2022)

masterpix said:


> Not sure about the concept of "digital teleconverter".


I think it's just a way of branding to make the auto-crop mode when putting on an RF-S lens sound fancier than it is. Nothing to see here, LOL


----------



## Chig (Oct 15, 2022)

AlanF said:


> If you are a "birds in flight nutter" then maybe the R7 is not the best for you, though it is pretty good, but if you are mainly perched birds the the R7 is remarkable. I wouldn't swap my R5 for a 24 Mpx R6 II for BIF as the R5 has unerring AF and the extra pixels mean I can use a shorter, lighter lens for the fast erratic flying critters.


Yep, I'd love an R5 or even an R3 but they're far beyond my budget so I'll probably wind up buying an R7 as it's still a vast improvement over my 7Dii, but I own an old EF400mm (non IS) f/2.8 plus 1.4x and 2x extenders (which I've tried out with an R7 and even the 2x works great) so the lower resolution of an R6ii isn't too much of a problem for me if I can afford one as the low light performance is also a big drawcard for me as I love to shoot in very low light when I can


----------



## AlanF (Oct 15, 2022)

Chig said:


> Yep, I'd love an R5 or even an R3 but they're far beyond my budget so I'll probably wind up buying an R7 as it's still a vast improvement over my 7Dii, but I own an old EF400mm (non IS) f/2.8 plus 1.4x and 2x extenders (which I've tried out with an R7 and even the 2x works great) so the lower resolution of an R6ii isn't too much of a problem for me if I can afford one as the low light performance is also a big drawcard for me as I love to shoot in very low light when I can


I’ve just posted in the bird portraits thread shots of a small bird taken with the R7 and RF100-400mm and the R5 and RF 100-500mm, and the cheap light combo is just as good. I really liked the crisp images from the R6 but the 2x more resolution from the R7 was more important for me.


----------



## GoldWing (Oct 16, 2022)

unfocused said:


> The idea that Canon has a bunch of extra sensors just sitting around waiting to be put into new camera models is pure bonkers.


Canon has tons of 20-24MP sensors. They will continue to put them into less expensive models. You see jumps now to 85MP and some 100's and or 102'S


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 16, 2022)

unfocused said:


> The idea that Canon has a bunch of extra sensors just sitting around waiting to be put into new camera models is pure bonkers.


There's also a chance that Canon actually planned ahead and produced enough stock of various sensors to use in upcoming cameras. We don't know if the sensor is the bottleneck in making a camera body and we also don't know the production schedule of the sensors.

I would also like to know if the scarcity of virtually all new Canon launches is purely supply chain issues or Canon trying to play it safe and picking the low end of sales projections to drive production. It does make deciding which thing to select for a second production run much easier, everything is sold out, so pick the one with the largest margin


----------



## fox40phil (Oct 16, 2022)

S


scyrene said:


> Do people change mode a lot? Genuine question.


onetimes between two custom settings or C2 to AV, when I do birds and my family ^^.
And for this I prefer to have a real thing to „spinn“ and not a digital one.


----------



## Cyborx (Oct 16, 2022)

So this is just the R6 with 4 megapixel extra and some 4K crop thingy?
Haha, Canon needs to fix the shutter issues on this thing and make a global shutter.
Because in artificial light, led, beamers, this camera goes completely crazy. 
Also adjusting the flash power in TTL is absolute horror. No quick dial button. 
And switching from eye AF to spot AF is a misery. Does Canon consult users before bringing this product to the market? These things are so essential. Are Ambassadors critical enough these days?


----------



## usern4cr (Oct 16, 2022)

Cyborx said:


> So this is just the R6 with 4 megapixel extra and some 4K crop thingy?
> Haha, Canon needs to fix the shutter issues on this thing and make a global shutter.
> Because in artificial light, led, beamers, this camera goes completely crazy.
> Also adjusting the flash power in TTL is absolute horror. No quick dial button.
> And switching from eye AF to spot AF is a misery. Does Canon consult users before bringing this product to the market? These things are so essential. Are Ambassadors critical enough these days?


On the R5, to switch between eye AF and spot AF you can just assign each to its own back buttons. That's what I do, and what I rely on to take almost all of my shots. I find it works just great. Can you do the same on the R6?


----------



## SHAMwow (Oct 16, 2022)

Cyborx said:


> So this is just the R6 with 4 megapixel extra and some 4K crop thingy?
> Haha, Canon needs to fix the shutter issues on this thing and make a global shutter.
> Because in artificial light, led, beamers, this camera goes completely crazy.
> Also adjusting the flash power in TTL is absolute horror. No quick dial button.
> And switching from eye AF to spot AF is a misery. Does Canon consult users before bringing this product to the market? These things are so essential. Are Ambassadors critical enough these days?


It's called mechanical shutter & anti-flicker. Use it. If you are shooting video and complaining about that, these issues are longstanding across multiple models and companies with regards to these cameras. I have shot plenty of video on my R5, and had no issue. Don't shoot video on the R6 so I won't comment as much on it.

And you can assign eye AF to AF-On and that way your spot is always up.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 16, 2022)

usern4cr said:


> On the R5, to switch between eye AF and spot AF you can just assign each to its own back buttons. That's what I do, and what I rely on to take almost all of my shots. I find it works just great. Can you do the same on the R6?


I did the same with the R6 and R7. I find it quite remarkable how people will condemn a camera because they think it‘s difficult to do something or there is a missing feature, and the simple fact is they haven’t read the manual. Also, if they bothered to ask Instead of complaining there are many of us who will share what we know.


----------



## bergstrom (Oct 16, 2022)

Cyborx said:


> So this is just the R6 with 4 megapixel extra and some 4K crop thingy?
> Haha, Canon needs to fix the shutter issues on this thing and make a global shutter.
> Because in artificial light, led, beamers, this camera goes completely crazy.
> Also adjusting the flash power in TTL is absolute horror. No quick dial button.
> And switching from eye AF to spot AF is a misery. Does Canon consult users before bringing this product to the market? These things are so essential. Are Ambassadors critical enough these days?



will wait it out for RPii / R9


----------



## UserM16 (Oct 16, 2022)

SimonW said:


> This is exactly where I'm at. Spec-wise the R6 would be great for me but I know I'm going to really miss that top LCD (Coming off a 5D MkIII). Clicked on this hoping it might be making it on, looks like we're going to be disappointed


I feel like everything on the top LCD, I have in the EVF tho.


----------



## Blue Zurich (Oct 16, 2022)

AlanF said:


> I did the same with the R6 and R7. I find it quite remarkable how people will condemn a camera because they think it‘s difficult to do something or there is a missing feature, and the simple fact is they haven’t read the manual. Also, if they bothered to ask Instead of complaining there are many of us who will share what we know


RTFM is a bit much to ask most devolved hominids in the 'Headline Age'.


----------



## reef58 (Oct 16, 2022)

scyrene said:


> Do people change mode a lot? Genuine question.


Yes. I have camera function to 1) one shot AV and ISO100, other custom modes are mammal oriented TV and bird oriented TV. For video I use Custom 3 as 120p, custom 2 as HQ 4k and custom 1 as canon log. It eliminates the menu dives.


----------



## David - Sydney (Oct 16, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> amazing AF doesn't equate with 80% keepers. If its that great, shouldn't it be at least 90%


Is the R6 AF the same as the R5?

The R5's eye-AF for people shots is uncanny including in low light indoor lighting with fast/erratic moving (sparring) competitors.

I am not a bird shooter but recently did a puffin (fast buggers!) shoot for 3 hours in Iceland. I didn't get 80 or 90% keeper but got >500 critically or acceptably sharp shots to play with. More than enough to be very happy even with a lot of cropping. Definitely some spray and pray involved but it was amazing how the animal-AF locked on without adjusting from standard AF settings.


----------



## navastronia (Oct 17, 2022)

Just had a difficult shoot this morning where I would have benefited from a 1/32000 shutter, a built-in grip, and a fast, standard zoom. Thinking about selling everything and replacing it with an R3 + 28-70/2


----------



## rpiotr01 (Oct 17, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> You only think of it being backwards looking at the megapixel spec. Try shooting with R6 with fast glass and editing the files.
> 
> I went from a 5D II and was hesitant about giving up OVF, but once I tried the R6, firstly the AF just blew me away. Keeper rates at f1.2 on fast moving subjects went from a prayer for luck to about 80%+ (in servo AF no less) with hardly any effort, and my goodness the amount you can push that file in the shadows and highlights is night and day.
> 
> Once you experience it, that 4mp difference will be the last thing on your mind.


Funny enough I only use 3 lenses, all Zeiss ZE, so I never really thought about AF. I just like the idea of a lighter body, detailed EVF that's good for MF and all the other tech. I guess I'd need to reconsider lenses too.


----------



## JohnC (Oct 17, 2022)

rpiotr01 said:


> Funny enough I only use 3 lenses, all Zeiss ZE, so I never really thought about AF. I just like the idea of a lighter body, detailed EVF that's good for MF and all the other tech. I guess I'd need to reconsider lenses too.


Love
My Zeiss glass although I admit Canon has come a long way with the RF line. The 15-35 is as good/maybe better as my 15mm Zeiss prime.


----------



## mxwphoto (Oct 17, 2022)

rpiotr01 said:


> Funny enough I only use 3 lenses, all Zeiss ZE, so I never really thought about AF. I just like the idea of a lighter body, detailed EVF that's good for MF and all the other tech. I guess I'd need to reconsider lenses too.


I do really like manual focus aids like focus peaking and little focus arrows provided on the R series. In my opinion they are superior to the split prisms of yesteryear.

If you want to explore the AF side on fast glass, I would recommend renting RF L or buying EF L with USM and adapting to start out with as RF L primes cost more than just a pretty penny.
The non L lens STM motor lenses do not focus as fast but are good for video focus racking if thst is important to you.


----------



## Mmm Toast (Oct 17, 2022)

That’s great news! That means I’ll be able to pick up the R6 for $1999!


----------



## Sigurd2 (Oct 17, 2022)

Marco Birri said:


> Wait what!? Just turn the button and look here (number 4, from the R6 manual)


Yes, you can see what shooting mode is currently selected in the viewfinder. But you don’t get any indication of how many clicks or witch direction to turn the dial to get to the shooting mode you want to activate. That you will have to guess (or memorize). Or to take your eye away from viewfinder and look at the top of the mode dial (with risk of scaring wildlife in some situations.).

With mode button, you can get an array of all shooting modes in the viewfinder, and can move the «cursor» up/down, left/right, and select the mode you want.

I can see that the mode dial is easier and faster when using the LCD screen for shooting. But for me that’s typically shooting landscape photos, tripod, no hurry, and when the time it takes to make a few extra button clicks doesn’t matter at all.


I have the R6 and are doing fine with the mode dial. So it’s not an make or breake deal, but I would prefer a camera with top LCD and mode button


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 17, 2022)

Sigurd2 said:


> Yes, you can see what shooting mode is currently selected in the viewfinder. But you don’t get any indication of how many clicks or witch direction to turn the dial to get to the shooting mode you want to activate. That you will have to guess (or memorize). Or to take your eye away from viewfinder and look at the top of the mode dial (with risk of scaring wildlife in some situations.).
> 
> With mode button, you can get an array of all shooting modes in the viewfinder, and can move the «cursor» up/down, left/right, and select the mode you want.[..]


And when you're using the back LCD: you can even use the touchscreen to select the mode you want. I've found that useful when using the camera on a tripod, while keeping an eye on the subject using the LCD.


----------



## Gonzaga Lopes (Oct 17, 2022)

danfaz said:


> Genuine question from a non-video guy. Why would you want to record audio in slow motion video?


Hi
Mainly for the sake of versatility. If other machines have it why canon not? 
Of course, you will never always record at 120p. 
But in my own case I liked it because as I make weddings at certain points that came in handy, such as:
At the exit of the church with rice flying, you will hear the original sound of people clapping; In the bridal session I usually use 120p and at one time or another there is a laugh or something else that could be interesting to take advantage of. In the dance situation, being able to keep the sound of the party but having the possibility of having the slowmotion in it. 
Sony/Lumix, when recording at 120p, maintains the normal clip, only in post production can we do the slowmotion and I believe that this way is the most beneficial for video editors.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 17, 2022)

BroderLund said:


> If R6 II is getting close, I would assume the R5 II is getting close too. The high end EOS cameras has typically had a four year cycle. This would mean a 2024 release. DIGIC X is also due for an update, which will likely come along the R6II and R5II cameras.



DiG!C X isn't a chip, it's an architecture. Canon explained this when it was first introduced. Not all DiG!C X cameras use the same actual chips, so there's a lot of room for improvements within the framework of DiG!C X.


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 17, 2022)

It seems it was just last week when the original was released. I'll be sticking with my classic, an OG R, for a while longer.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 17, 2022)

JoeP said:


> What about GPS ?
> 
> (Somewhat shorter battery life like 50% is OK - but 300 images from one battery is rather little ...)



Leaving GPS turned on drains the batteries in my 5D Mark IV at a much faster rate than when GPS is turned off. This is true even when the camera's power switch is in the 'Off' position.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 17, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> The 1DX III was only out a year before the R6.
> I thought that the 1DX III used a new sensor.



Yes, and every Canon APS-C camera that had an 18 MP sensor had a _"new"_ sensor, too.

If Canon changed anything between the sensor in the 1D X Mark II and 1D X Mark III it was something like the exact colors used in the CFA, or a slight change to the micro-lenses, or a less strong anti-aliasing filter. It wasn't a new sensor chip.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 17, 2022)

Kit. said:


> Low megapixels mean greater loss of resolution during digital distortion correction.



This is most significant at the edge of the image. The difference at the center of the frame is much less severe. For landscape or flat test chart shooters it may be important, but for portraitists or sports/action shooters where the edges of the frame are usually out of focus, it's no big deal.


----------



## TonyG (Oct 17, 2022)

I see a lot of people comparing the R6 and R3 product lines and why Canon wouldn’t use the R3 sensor in the R6ii as it competes with the R3, but no one seems to look at Canons real competition, Sony.
I could see Canon using a variation of the R3 sensor to compete with the Sony line up. 
The R6 competitor (the A7iv) has a slight one up on the R6 on a lot of features. The only real advantage the R6 has over the A7iv is the lack of a real crop at 4k60. Sony has the A7RV coming out in a few weeks and if Canon doesn’t respond with upgrades to their bodies, I fear they will be stuck in second place. Forget competing in their own line up, or having a 4 year refresh cycle, they need to compete with Sony. The market is getting very competitive between Sony and Canon and I think we’re going to see a lot of body’s refreshing more frequently.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 17, 2022)

peters said:


> Isnt it a bit early? I thought the product cycle of 5er 6er 1er canon cameras is pretty solid around 4 years? The R6 is just 2 years old?
> But lets hope
> Though I must say, for me the 4 year cycle worked pretty perfectly, starting at the 5D Mark II. =)



Well, rumors do seem to get going over a year before most II or III versions of cameras are released. And the R5 and R6 were a bit "late" from their original planned introduction in early 2020 which got derailed by the pandemic and supply chain issues.

A rumor first appearing in the fall of 2022 that results in an early 2024 release 18 months later would not be not that unusual, would it?


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 17, 2022)

AlanF said:


> It would if it were made by Adobe. I opened PS one day when not connected to the internet and Adobe tried to delete the app as it thought my account had expired.



The main reason why I stopped using Adobe products a long time ago.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 17, 2022)

Marco Birri said:


> Cloud RAW processing... hmmm... 5G? WiFi 6E? 5GHz WiFi?



... 1 or 2.5 gigabit ethernet via fiber?


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 17, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Digital Teleconverter? Good for using as a spotting scope, but I do that in software anyway.



a/k/a Digital Zoom? (That is to say, built in cropping.)


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 17, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> The 1DX3 sensor is based on tweaks to their mature FSI sensor tech used on all their other cameras. The at the time state of the art OLP filter was the new defining characteristic of that sensor package, which they did not put in R6.
> 
> R3 on the other hand, uses their brand new stacked sensor tech with a 5ms readout of the entire sensor. Due to size differences, having a 5ms readout on a full frame is a LOT more technically challenging than say on a type-1, m43 or apsc sensor. Also stacked design means sandwiching 2-3 substrates together of which electronics substrate on the bottom with ADC and logic need finer lithography than the sensor pixels. That means either Canon retooled their sensor production line with a whole bunch of really expensive equipment or they outsourced the bottom substrate, both of which adds to cost per chip.
> 
> ...



What makes you think this rumor means an R6 Mark II would have to arrive before an R1? 

Rumors have been flying for years regarding the R1. I'd expect both to appear sometime around early 2024, which is only 18 months away. Canon usually gets physical prototypes into the field in the hands of their testers about one year before release, so we're almost certainly at least a year away from either camera's introduction.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 17, 2022)

fox40phil said:


> It was done the same way with the last top end camera ... there will be still features only for the R3/1 to let them in their place.



But it was that way because Canon made a strategic decision to use the same sensor on multiple camera models, not because they "accidentally" made too many for the low volume camera model that was introduced first. 

If Canon uses essentially the same sensor for the R6 Mark II that they use for the R3, it will be because Canon has made a strategic decision to do so, not because they "accidentally" made way too many sensors for the number of R3 bodies they will eventually sell.


----------



## roby17269 (Oct 17, 2022)

rpiotr01 said:


> I'm a 5DIII shooter looking to switch to mirrorless. Was looking at the R6 but - illogically and emotionally, I admit - couldn't justify the downgrade, however slight, in MP. I have no problem with resolution of my current camera but felt odd to spend money on a new camera just to go backwards. If they do bump up the R6II to ~24, that probably seals the deal for me. Seems like an awesome stills camera otherwise.


Years ago I went 5D mkII -> 1D X, meaning 21mp -> 18mp
I was hesitant for the same reason, but in the end the better AF, better OVF, faster speed, better body and longer lasting battery more than made up for the loss of 3mp. And 3mp are barely noticeable.

To be honest, 1 of the reasons I went for the R5 from the 1D X was resolution, but in this case the difference was significant (+ 27mp), coupled with an amazing AF and access to new RF lenses. I am a very happy camper right now (apart from c'mon Canon release the new 35L already!  ) and what I can tell you that 18mp or 21mp wouldn't have made a difference, I'd still have made the jump.

It is up to you ultimately, but I'd be confident that the advantages of the R6 (AF, access to RF lenses, speed) would more than compensate the loss of 2mp


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 17, 2022)

victorshikhman said:


> When the R6ii is on the market, priced at the R6's current $2500'ish, a year from now, you don't think R6 refurb bodies direct from canon will drop below the current $2250? I would think in time for the '23-24 holiday season, the R6 refurb will be around $1800. You disagree?



I've bought several refurb bodies and refurb lenses direct from Canon USA over the years. I've never noticed a significant drop in the long-term price of refurb gear unless Canon also significantly reduced the "permanent" price of the same models sold as new via authorized dealers. Once a model is replaced with a successor, the refurb price rarely drops significantly from where it already was when that model was discontinued. The rare exceptions seem to be when they have a large stock of refurbed units to sell, and that tends to happen most with the lowest cost lenses. Even when Canon has a "refurb sale" where many models are temporarily reduced in price for a very limited time period, not all refurb lenses or bodies get the deep temporary discount. There have even been times when new camera bodies offered via dealers had deep discounts and the same models at the refurb store were priced higher than the new ones with the deep discount.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 17, 2022)

roby17269 said:


> Years ago I went 5D mkII -> 1D X, meaning 21mp -> 18mp


I also went 5DII -> 1D X, then added the 30 MP R, then the 24 MP R3. 

It’s worth noting that not all megapixels are created equal. Canon has claimed that the R3 with its differently-designed AA filter outresolves the R (which reused the 5DIV sensor), despite having 6 fewer MPs. In practice with the lenses I typically use (the least sharp of which is the RF 24-105/4L), I have found that to be true.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 17, 2022)

scyrene said:


> Do people change mode a lot? Genuine question.



I shot an outdoor concert with a very well lit stage last night. For shots of the stage I was in manual mode at ISO800, f/3.2, 1/200 (give or take depending on the brighter and dimmer spots on the stage where each performer was standing/sitting). For shots of the large crowd on the ground in front of the stage, after it got dark I needed ISO6400, f/2.2, 1/60 and I'll have to push it in raw development. I recorded the settings for the crowd to C1 and used the mode dial on my 5D Mark IV to switch between M for the stage and C1 for a few crowd shots.

It's similar when I shoot high school football or other field sports. The players on the field are illuminated significantly brighter than the fans in the stands. The best fan shots are reactions immediately after a great play on the field. Being able to go from one set of settings to another quickly using C1 - C2 - C3 on the mode dial is very helpful in those situations. Only needing to press a button, as some of the R models allow, would be even more helpful.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 17, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> amazing AF doesn't equate with 80% keepers. If its that great, shouldn't it be at least 90%



It somewhat depends on one's "pickiness factor" as well as one's shooting technique. 

Beyond that, sometimes a perfectly in-focus shot is not a keeper for other reasons. It can also depend upon the scene contents. 

A well-focused football shot of the ball carrier being tackled can be ruined by the way rear ends of other players are positioned, especially if one of them has a "crack problem".

At a staged concert or theatrical production, the brightness of the lighting can vary significantly from one frame to the next, even within a high speed burst. So maybe the shot is perfectly focused but half the frame is blown out by one of the rotating spots on the back of the stage pointing straight into the camera.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 17, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I also went 5DII -> 1D X, then added the 30 MP R, then the 24 MP R3.
> 
> It’s worth noting that not all megapixels are created equal. Canon has claimed that the R3 with its differently-designed AA filter outresolves the R (which reused the 5DIV sensor), despite having 6 fewer MPs. In practice with the lenses I typically use (the least sharp of which is the RF 24-105/4L), I have found that to be true.


It’s similar with the R5 and the 5DSR. Despite the R5 having 5 Mpx fewer and also having an AA-filter, I find it sharper as Canon claimed and which I didn’t believe in advance.


----------



## roby17269 (Oct 17, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I also went 5DII -> 1D X, then added the 30 MP R, then the 24 MP R3.
> 
> It’s worth noting that not all megapixels are created equal. Canon has claimed that the R3 with its differently-designed AA filter outresolves the R (which reused the 5DIV sensor), despite having 6 fewer MPs. In practice with the lenses I typically use (the least sharp of which is the RF 24-105/4L), I have found that to be true.


Yes, I remember reading that the 1D cameras had better circuitry around the sensor compared to 5D's and other models, resulting in "better" internal signal and less noise. 
I am not sure how true or material that was, but the reality is that I've never felt that the 1D X was inferior to the 5D mkII because of those lost 3mp... on the contrary.
Old saying, you get what you pay for


----------



## John Wilde (Oct 17, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> I would also like to know if the scarcity of virtually all new Canon launches is purely supply chain issues ...


Last quarter Canon wrote: "However, due to Shanghai’s COVID lockdown, we have seen a new round of parts shortages, which has led to some delay in production of mainly printing equipment and cameras."


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 17, 2022)

Elmonducky said:


> What is a "digital teleconverter"?



A term made up by the marketing department to describe specific in-camera cropping ratios, a/k/a _Digital Zoom_ to specific crop factors.


----------



## Bentley (Oct 18, 2022)

Traveler said:


> The only thing I’m missing on the R6 is the top LCD.
> Anything else – I don’t care


I came from the 5D mkiii. I absolutely love the pasm dial instead of the LCD screen. Don’t miss it at all. Actually my previous 3 Canon cameras had it. That was probably the only hesitation instead of the r5. I don’t need 45 mp and now that I know the r6 is so programmable I’m so glad I bought it.


----------



## Bentley (Oct 18, 2022)

aledronix said:


> I thought the same thing coming off 6 years with a canon 70D and then 90D both with top lcds that worked great.
> That said i have had very few cases where i thought about it while shooting. Since the back display is always on i would be able to see my settings and exposure in most positions


Trust me. You’ll never miss it. I just posted a reply on another person thinking the same thing. I’d even like 2 of the dials if there was room instead of the LCD. Especially now that the RF lenses have the programmable ring.


----------



## David - Sydney (Oct 18, 2022)

John Wilde said:


> Last quarter Canon wrote: "However, due to Shanghai’s COVID lockdown, we have seen a new round of parts shortages, which has led to some delay in production of mainly printing equipment and cameras."


China is not doing itself many favours with their zero covid policy and subsequent lockdowns. They can't let it rip until they can better vaccine efficacy rates and I don't think that their sino-vaccine has much protection against Omicron. Waiting for their second generation vaccine and then physically getting it into the population will take some time.

In the meantime, supply chains will seek to decouple themselves from China for a myriad of reasons. China will still be a massive manufacturing centre and their developing internal market will be significant vs exports but I think that the rest of the world is becoming very wary.


----------



## max (Oct 18, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> A term made up by the marketing department to describe specific in-camera cropping ratios, a/k/a _Digital Zoom_ to specific crop factors.


I don't think it will zoom digitally but only crop the image. I do think that it is cool that when you put on an EFs lens it will crop in the viewfinder also


----------



## mxwphoto (Oct 18, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> What makes you think this rumor means an R6 Mark II would have to arrive before an R1?
> 
> Rumors have been flying for years regarding the R1. I'd expect both to appear sometime around early 2024, which is only 18 months away. Canon usually gets physical prototypes into the field in the hands of their testers about one year before release, so we're almost certainly at least a year away from either camera's introduction.


I am only stating that if the R6 II comes out before R1, I would not expect a stacked sensor in it because it would take away a key selling point for Canon's flagship.

Stacked sensors will eventually trickle down to R5, R6, and beyond, just don't see it happening this quickly in the R6 II.


----------



## Steve Balcombe (Oct 18, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> I am only stating that if the R6 II comes out before R1, I would not expect a stacked sensor in it because it would take away a key selling point for Canon's flagship.
> 
> Stacked sensors will eventually trickle down to R5, R6, and beyond, just don't see it happening this quickly in the R6 II.


Canon also has to take the competition into account, and stacked BSI sensors are becoming more widely used, from the OM-1 to the Z9. I know Canon has a justifiable reputation for not being the first to market with the latest technology, but this is moving into the mainstream.


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 18, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> I am only stating that if the R6 II comes out before R1, I would not expect a stacked sensor in it because it would take away a key selling point for Canon's flagship.[..]


Canon is pushing hard on the "R3 is not a flagship" message and the R3 has a stacked sensor. So if the R1 has a stacked sensor, it already has competition from non-flagship cameras in that regard.


----------



## RexxReviews (Oct 18, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> Canon is pushing hard on the "R3 is not a flagship" message and the R3 has a stacked sensor. So if the R1 has a stacked sensor, it already has competition from non-flagship cameras in that regard.


Thats because the R3 WAS supposed to be the "Flagship" By the time they got to production other companies, ie SONY has supposed changes coming to their new lineup that forced Canon to have to change gears on what the "flagship" was so this is now being walked back.


----------



## Kit. (Oct 18, 2022)

RexxReviews said:


> Thats because the R3 WAS supposed to be the "Flagship"


With no dual CFexpress slots?

Highly unlikely.


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 18, 2022)

RexxReviews said:


> Thats because the R3 WAS supposed to be the "Flagship" By the time they got to production other companies, ie SONY has supposed changes coming to their new lineup that forced Canon to have to change gears on what the "flagship" was so this is now being walked back.


[Citation needed]


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 18, 2022)

RexxReviews said:


> Thats because the R3 WAS supposed to be the "Flagship" By the time they got to production other companies, ie SONY has supposed changes coming to their new lineup that forced Canon to have to change gears on what the "flagship" was so this is now being walked back.


Here’s a dollar:


…go buy a clue.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Oct 18, 2022)

RexxReviews said:


> Thats because the R3 WAS supposed to be the "Flagship" By the time they got to production other companies, ie SONY has supposed changes coming to their new lineup that forced Canon to have to change gears on what the "flagship" was so this is now being walked back.


that makes no sense. It just seems as if Canon needed a sports camera for the R Series. It's too close to the older 1DX3 to be a next gen flagship and doesnt have Dual CF Express.


----------



## TonyG (Oct 18, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> I am only stating that if the R6 II comes out before R1, I would not expect a stacked sensor in it because it would take away a key selling point for Canon's flagship.
> 
> Stacked sensors will eventually trickle down to R5, R6, and beyond, just don't see it happening this quickly in the R6 II.



One thing to consider is Canon does not just have to compete with its line up, but with the competitions line up.
Even if they put a modified R3 sensor in the R6ii, it still will have firmware handicaps in order to keep the R3 a more "professional featured" body with more advanced bell and whistles. Like a faster shutter speed, buffer speed, 4k 120, CF Express, etc.

The truth of the matter is that Sony released a response to the R6 with the A7iv. The only real edge the R6 has over the Sony is the minimal 4k 60 crop, otherwise in my opinion the Sony has an edge on most of the R6 features.
Sony is releasing the A7Rv in 2 weeks. Since the R5 is 2 years old, it would be safe to assume that its rumored new processor and 8k would give it an edge up on the R5.

Canon has been sitting in second place and Sony is ready to release updated bodies. 
It would be safe to assume a Sony A9iii would be next and will probably one up the year old R3.
Once the forever rumored R1 is released, a Sony A1ii will be coming out right after to outmatch it.

Canon either has to take an aggressive approach and maybe take a margin hit to bring features like a fast readout stacked sensor to their lower tiered bodies before the competition does in order to keep the ecosystem alive and not lose more people switching to Sony. Especially when Sony has lenses.....

Now a consumer would have the choice of a stacked sensor R6ii over the A7iv until the next A7v releases in a few years. 
Or they wait for an A7v first and then release an R6 to one up it. But by then the other bodies in Sony's line up would have out shined Canon's.
Hence why I think Canon will finally go on the attack and try to push new product out faster and first.


----------



## bergstrom (Oct 18, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> I am only stating that if the R6 II comes out before R1, I would not expect a stacked sensor in it because it would take away a key selling point for Canon's flagship.
> 
> Stacked sensors will eventually trickle down to R5, R6, and beyond, just don't see it happening this quickly in the R6 II.


ah well then, roll on the R6iii


----------



## Surab (Oct 18, 2022)

> *RF/RF-S Lenses*



I am honestly just happy to see that it supports RF/RF-S lenses.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 18, 2022)

TonyG said:


> One thing to consider is Canon does not just have to compete with its line up, but with the competitions line up.
> Even if they put a modified R3 sensor in the R6ii, it still will have firmware handicaps in order to keep the R3 a more "professional featured" body with more advanced bell and whistles. Like a faster shutter speed, buffer speed, 4k 120, CF Express, etc.
> 
> The truth of the matter is that Sony released a response to the R6 with the A7iv. The only real edge the R6 has over the Sony is the minimal 4k 60 crop, otherwise in my opinion the Sony has an edge on most of the R6 features.
> ...


Lol


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 18, 2022)

TonyG said:


> Canon has been sitting in second place and Sony is ready to release updated bodies.


Yet somehow over 50% of the ILCs sold last year were made by Canon.



TonyG said:


> Canon either has to take an aggressive approach and maybe take a margin hit to bring features like a fast readout stacked sensor to their lower tiered bodies before the competition does in order to keep the ecosystem alive and not lose more people switching to Sony. Especially when Sony has lenses.....


Canon and Sony both gained about the same percentage of MILC market share last year, so there's really no evidence that the net number of people switching from Canon to Sony is meaningful in any way. Olympus lost significant market share, to both Sony and Canon.

Perhaps you're one of the people on this forum who actually lets facts and data influence your opinions, but I wouldn't bet money on that.


----------



## TonyG (Oct 18, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yet somehow over 50% of the ILCs sold last year were made by Canon.
> 
> 
> Canon and Sony both gained about the same percentage of MILC market share last year, so there's really no evidence that the net number of people switching from Canon to Sony is meaningful in any way. Olympus lost significant market share, to both Sony and Canon.
> ...


No offense but logically speaking, and looking at data you presented, if both companies have manufacturing delays due to covid and the global chip shortage, not to mention stock is still not at a normal capacity, wouldn't the data be skewed and not viable since there are still consumers waiting for camera bodies?
Meaning they sold as much as they can physically produce?

There's a huge demand for Sony Mirrorless ILC Systems and Canon Mirrorless ILC Systems.
Try buying an RF 24-70 or an FE 24-70 GMii. Or maybe an R3? Most places are still out of stock.

I believe that data you misinterpreted is the demand for consumers to upgrade and switch to mirrorless systems.
And yes, I am a Canon fanboy but yet I believe Canon is second place (Not referring to sales) in regard to the Sony systems in terms of features and capabilities as well as system as a whole.
Still waiting to buy an RF 35L and a RF12 or RF14 L, maybe a 12-24 2.8 or 4.0?.....
Back to my initial statement that Canon might actually use the R3 sensor in the R6ii in order to try and push ahead of Sony's feature list.


----------



## adrian_bacon (Oct 18, 2022)

scyrene said:


> I did wonder. I never learned how to set up the custom modes, I'm permanently in M and just manually change the shutter speed, ISO, AF mode as required. I'm sure your way is more efficient, but am I too stubborn to change now?


Same here. I'm mostly in manual mode on my R6. With RF lenses, it has 4 (!!!!) dials. I put the viewfinder to exposure simulation so I can see what the picture is actually going to look like then simply adjust the appropriate dials to get the desired result. I typically have the lens dial set to control the aperture, the front dial the shutter speed, the back dial the white balance, and the back scroll the ISO. It works for me.


----------



## bergstrom (Oct 18, 2022)

always thinking of the non existant security features on cameras and canon could lead the way, since NO cameras (correct me if I'm wrong) have anything to prevent a stolen camera being used. A simple screen lock with 6 digits would be a start.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 18, 2022)

adrian_bacon said:


> Same here. I'm mostly in manual mode on my R6. With RF lenses, it has 4 (!!!!) dials. I put the viewfinder to exposure simulation so I can see what the picture is actually going to look like then simply adjust the appropriate dials to get the desired result. I typically have the lens dial set to control the aperture, the front dial the shutter speed, the back dial the white balance, and the back scroll the ISO. It works for me.


I've not used the lens dial (control ring?) yet, my reflexes are too wedded to EF.


----------



## adrian_bacon (Oct 18, 2022)

scyrene said:


> I've not used the lens dial (control ring?) yet, my reflexes are too wedded to EF.


Even without it, you have shutter speed, ISO, and aperture control via the other 3. There are a myriad of shooting situations, but most of the time in uncontrolled lighting, I find myself only changing one thing from shot to shot, and it's usually ISO if I don't just put it on auto ISO. The other settings, you're either wide open and the slowest shutter you'll tolerate for that focal length/shooting condition, or you're changing the shutter or aperture for very specific reasons. Being able to assign WB to a control dial is just icing on the cake, though again, usually it's just initially set it to the given light once at the job (whatever the predominate ambient wb is for that location) and get on with it with maybe minor shot to shot tweaks.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 18, 2022)

adrian_bacon said:


> Even without it, you have shutter speed, ISO, and aperture control via the other 3. There are a myriad of shooting situations, but most of the time in uncontrolled lighting, I find myself only changing one thing from shot to shot, and it's usually ISO if I don't just put it on auto ISO. The other settings, you're either wide open and the slowest shutter you'll tolerate for that focal length/shooting condition, or you're changing the shutter or aperture for very specific reasons. Being able to assign WB to a control dial is just icing on the cake, though again, usually it's just initially set it to the given light once at the job (whatever the predominate ambient wb is for that location) and get on with it with maybe minor shot to shot tweaks.


Yeah, I don't manually adjust WB so only need 3. Usually I'm just changing ISO + shutter speed shot to shot, aperture less often (especially as my current bird lens has a fixed one!). I'm probably missing out a bit by not customising buttons/modes, but I'm not doing enough shooting these days to make it worth my while, plus if I miss a shot, too bad. It's good to have so many options though!


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 18, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> always thinking of the non existant security features on camera


I can't see a thief checking for security features before stealing a camera.
Such security features would need to be in most cameras to deter theft.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 18, 2022)

TonyG said:


> No offense but logically speaking, and looking at data you presented, if both companies have manufacturing delays due to covid and the global chip shortage, not to mention stock is still not at a normal capacity, wouldn't the data be skewed and not viable since there are still consumers waiting for camera bodies?
> Meaning they sold as much as they can physically produce?


Both Sony and Canon MILC market share grew by ~5% from 2020 to 2021. Unless you have data suggesting the supply chain issues differentially affected one or the other, why assume so? The only 'skew' is that there may be unmet demand for some camera bodies (I preordered my R3 in the first few minutes, those who waited a few hours to preorder waited a few extra months for their R3). If you want to assume that while both Canon and Sony grew at the same rate, only Sony or only Canon would have grown faster because there was more demand they couldn't meet, that's less of an assumption and more of an ASSumption.



TonyG said:


> I believe that data you misinterpreted is the demand for consumers to upgrade and switch to mirrorless systems.


How so? I'm not interpreting (or misinterpreting) demand. Demand is hard to quantify, and honestly it doesn't matter all that much. Lots of people want to buy a BMW or Mercedes, so demand is high. But most people actually buy a Toyota or a Honda. If you want to talk demand, it's interesting that you mention all of Sony's presumably forthcoming bodies but ignore the R7 and R10. I suspect that those less expensive bodies will have a significant impact on MILC market share, even with only partial year impact for 2022. Those are the Toyotas and Hondas of the MILC market. Will be interesting to see who leads the MILC market in 2024.




TonyG said:


> And yes, I am a Canon fanboy but yet I believe Canon is second place (Not referring to sales) in regard to the Sony systems in terms of features and capabilities as well as system as a whole.


You can believe whatever you want. There's no objective way to measure what is 'the best' in those terms. Sony doesn't have an f/2 standard zoom, and I love my 28-70/2. Sony doesn't have a 70-200/2.8 that fits vertically in my camera bag slot, the Sony lens would take up two lens spaces instead of one. Sony doesn't even make TS-E / PC lenses or a fisheye zoom (I have no use for the latter, but have two of the former, along with the MP-E 65 for which there's also no Sony equivalent). Everyone's best is unique to them.

What can be measured is what people actually buy. And for that, we go back to my initial statement that >50% of ILCs sold last year were made by Canon. So while everyone determines what's best for them, the fact is that the majority of ILC buyers think that system that's best for them is Canon.


----------



## adrian_bacon (Oct 18, 2022)

scyrene said:


> Yeah, I don't manually adjust WB so only need 3. Usually I'm just changing ISO + shutter speed shot to shot, aperture less often (especially as my current bird lens has a fixed one!). I'm probably missing out a bit by not customising buttons/modes, but I'm not doing enough shooting these days to make it worth my while, plus if I miss a shot, too bad. It's good to have so many options though!


Yeah, with pretty much any camera/lens made in the last 10 years, there's no reason not to fairly consistently have even reasonably good results in most situations. Photographers 50 years back were getting good results using less. We have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to photographic tools. It's actually almost too much and tends to get in the way. I actually prefer just keeping it simple.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 18, 2022)

scyrene said:


> I did wonder. I never learned how to set up the custom modes, I'm permanently in M and just manually change the shutter speed, ISO, AF mode as required. I'm sure your way is more efficient, but am I too stubborn to change now?


You younger guys aren't as technologically savvy as us oldies.


----------



## TonyG (Oct 18, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Both Sony and Canon MILC market share grew by ~5% from 2020 to 2021. Unless you have data suggesting the supply chain issues differentially affected one or the other, why assume so? The only 'skew' is that there may be unmet demand for some camera bodies (I preordered my R3 in the first few minutes, those who waited a few hours to preorder waited a few extra months for their R3). If you want to assume that while both Canon and Sony grew at the same rate, only Sony or only Canon would have grown faster because there was more demand they couldn't meet, that's less of an assumption and more of an ASSumption.
> 
> 
> How so? I'm not interpreting (or misinterpreting) demand. Demand is hard to quantify, and honestly it doesn't matter all that much. Lots of people want to buy a BMW or Mercedes, so demand is high. But most people actually buy a Toyota or a Honda. If you want to talk demand, it's interesting that you mention all of Sony's presumably forthcoming bodies but ignore the R7 and R10. I suspect that those less expensive bodies will have a significant impact on MILC market share, even with only partial year impact for 2022. Those are the Toyotas and Hondas of the MILC market. Will be interesting to see who leads the MILC market in 2024.
> ...


And all this because of my statement that I could see Canon putting a variation of the R3 Stacked Sensor in the R6ii to compete with Sony's line up.
Starting to ramble on about crop sensor bodies while this thread is about the Full Frame R6ii, that's an ASSumption.
Demand is not hard to quantify, if it sells quick and you can't keep it on the shelf, that's demand. lol


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 18, 2022)

TonyG said:


> And all this because of my statement that I could see Canon putting a variation of the R3 Stacked Sensor in the R6ii to compete with Sony's line up.


No, all this because you made claims that were not consistent with the available facts and data.



TonyG said:


> Starting to ramble on about crop sensor bodies while this thread is about the Full Frame R6ii, that's an ASSumption.


But your rambling on about lenses is totally germane? Sure, sure. 



TonyG said:


> Demand is not hard to quantify, if it sells quick and you can't keep it on the shelf, that's demand. lol


Supply is another part of the equation. First you bring it up, now you ignore it. Well done.


----------



## peters (Oct 18, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Well, rumors do seem to get going over a year before most II or III versions of cameras are released. And the R5 and R6 were a bit "late" from their original planned introduction in early 2020 which got derailed by the pandemic and supply chain issues.
> 
> A rumor first appearing in the fall of 2022 that results in an early 2024 release 18 months later would not be not that unusual, would it?


Sounds reasonable  

So a little bit early R5 II release would be possible as well... looking forward to this.
Main features I would hope for (since they fixed the overheat) would be more DR in video (which the R5 is quite a bit behind compard to the competition). Also Full Size HDMI and 1080p with 240 frames (shouldnt be a problem at all with the current datarates the R5 offers).


----------



## bergstrom (Oct 18, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I can't see a thief checking for security features before stealing a camera.
> Such security features would need to be in most cameras to deter theft.



well fair enough, but if enough companies started implimenting these features, thieves wouldn't even bother as they'd know its too much hassel to resell.


----------



## peters (Oct 18, 2022)

navastronia said:


> Just had a difficult shoot this morning where I would have benefited from a 1/32000 shutter, a built-in grip, and a fast, standard zoom. Thinking about selling everything and replacing it with an R3 + 28-70/2


That sounds quite interesting. What kind of shooting was that, that would benefit from such an extreme shutter speed? =)


----------



## HikeBike (Oct 18, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> always thinking of the non existant security features on cameras and canon could lead the way, since NO cameras (correct me if I'm wrong) have anything to prevent a stolen camera being used. A simple screen lock with 6 digits would be a start.


I kind of like the idea of a passcode...but it wouldn't be nearly as useful of a feature as it is on a cellphone. At the end of the day, if your passcode-protected camera were to get stolen, you could take a bit of solace in the fact that the thief wouldn't be able to use it. But odds are, he/she also nabbed two or three lenses along with it. So, it really just goes back to doing all you can to minimize someone's opportunity to steal your gear.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 18, 2022)

HikeBike said:


> So, it really just goes back to doing all you can to minimize someone's opportunity to steal your gear.


And if your gear has high value, having it insured.


----------



## Skux (Oct 18, 2022)

If Canon was in second place we'd be seeing a whole raft of Tamron and Sigma lenses coming to RF mount lol


----------



## AlanF (Oct 18, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> well fair enough, but if enough companies started implimenting these features, thieves wouldn't even bother as they'd know its too much hassel to resell.


Someone stole my TomTom GPS just over a week ago when I was on vacation and using it abroad. TomTom deactivated it on request so it can't be updated or have real time traffic info. With luck, my travel insurance will pay for it.


----------



## navastronia (Oct 18, 2022)

peters said:


> That sounds quite interesting. What kind of shooting was that, that would benefit from such an extreme shutter speed? =)



Extremely bright day near the beach taking event photos for a client where it would benefit me to shoot large-aperture primes wide open. I suppose I could buy and fiddle with ND filters on-site, but you know . . . it would be more fun to buy a new camera, wouldn't you agree??? lol


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 18, 2022)

navastronia said:


> Extremely bright day near the beach taking event photos for a client where it would benefit me to shoot large-aperture primes wide open. I suppose I could buy and fiddle with ND filters on-site, but you know . . . it would be more fun to buy a new camera, wouldn't you agree??? lol


That's one of the features I like with the R3. I have a 3-stop ND that I mainly used with the EF 85/1.4L IS (and with the EF 85/1.2L II before that) for outdoor portraits. Using the lens on the R3 means I _could_ use the vND adapter instead, but even better to not need an ND at all, because the shutter speed bump from 1/8000 s with my 1D X to 1/64000 s with the R3 provides the needed 3 stops.


----------



## TonyG (Oct 18, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> No, all this because you made claims that were not consistent with the available facts and data.
> 
> 
> But your rambling on about lenses is totally germane? Sure, sure.
> ...


Like I said, If Canon wants to be aggressive against the competition, and not behind them on the features list, the CR3 rumor might be true that it could have a variation of the R3 Sensor in order to one up Sony.
If Canon wants to be aggressive in the marketplace, more lenses will need to come out next year, the competition has high level primes ready to supply to the demand. 
Just because I hurt your feelings doesn't mean that we are not all waiting for Canon to finish establishing a complete mirrorless ecosystem.
So forgive me if the truth hurts and I call it as it is and say that as of right now, Sony has more appeal than Canon does.


----------



## JohnC (Oct 18, 2022)

For me personally the current Canon ecosystem is more complete than it’s ever been. RF is expensive yes, but not much more so than the manual Zeiss glass I shot with anyway….and the performance is certainly there. 

I realize that may not be true for everyone but I think Canon has done a LOT over the past couple of years in the mirrorless arena, and they have done it very well in my opinion.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 18, 2022)

TonyG said:


> Like I said, If Canon wants to be aggressive against the competition, and not behind them on the features list, the CR3 rumor might be true that it could have a variation of the R3 Sensor in order to one up Sony.
> If Canon wants to be aggressive in the marketplace, more lenses will need to come out next year, the competition has high level primes ready to supply to the demand.
> Just because I hurt your feelings doesn't mean that we are not all waiting for Canon to finish establishing a complete mirrorless ecosystem.
> So forgive me if the truth hurts and I call it as it is and say that as of right now, Sony has more appeal than Canon does.


They don't need to be ahead on "features lists" to dominate the market, years of sales figures show that much. They'll definitely release more lenses anyhow.


----------



## David - Sydney (Oct 19, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> always thinking of the non existant security features on cameras and canon could lead the way, since NO cameras (correct me if I'm wrong) have anything to prevent a stolen camera being used. A simple screen lock with 6 digits would be a start.


Yes, but people would complain that it takes too long from power on button to taking a shot. Another option could be to require a security code when inserting a new card.
Selling second hand would be more problematic as well... they could sell you the body and then after delivery require you to pay something more for the code. Not quite blackmail but nasty all the same.


----------



## David - Sydney (Oct 19, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> You can believe whatever you want. There's no objective way to measure what is 'the best' in those terms. Sony doesn't have an f/2 standard zoom, and I love my 28-70/2. Sony doesn't have a 70-200/2.8 that fits vertically in my camera bag slot, the Sony lens would take up two lens spaces instead of one. Sony doesn't even make TS-E / PC lenses or a fisheye zoom (I have no use for the latter, but have two of the former, along with the MP-E 65 for which there's also no Sony equivalent). Everyone's best is unique to them.


Canon's unique EF range can still be used on Sony E mount with an adapter but I wonder how many Sony users still adapt EF lenses.... If they are long term Sony users then I am sure that they have one in their bag somewhere. 
AF isn't an issue for TS-E and MP-E lenses. For the fisheye zoom (which I do use occasionally) setting the manual focus to infinity fits almost all use cases.


----------



## David - Sydney (Oct 19, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I can't see a thief checking for security features before stealing a camera.
> Such security features would need to be in most cameras to deter theft.


yes and no... you would have the satisfaction that no one could use it but there would be no recourse if they sold it to another user as second hand. The dudded buyer would have to go to Canon to reset it.


----------



## Czardoom (Oct 19, 2022)

RexxReviews said:


> Thats because the R3 WAS supposed to be the "Flagship" By the time they got to production other companies, ie SONY has supposed changes coming to their new lineup that forced Canon to have to change gears on what the "flagship" was so this is now being walked back.


Yes, a wonderful GUESS that forum geniuses like to say to show how smart they are. Or you could look at Canon's past history of releasing their Series 1 camera approx. every 4 years (1DX in 2012, 1DX II in 2016, 1DX III in 2020) and think that the R3 was exactly what they say it is (not flagship) and that they have always planned the R1 to be the flagship and released in either late 2023 or early 2024. 

It's OK to speculate, but you answer as if it is fact and it is not.


----------



## David - Sydney (Oct 19, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> And if your gear has high value, having it insured.


Very true but I just got my insurance annual premium and it is clear that I have too much gear even if it is only ~3% of replacement value!!!
Great value for piece of mind especially for underwater stuff and global travel.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 19, 2022)

TonyG said:


> Like I said, If Canon wants to be aggressive against the competition, and not behind them on the features list, the CR3 rumor might be true that it could have a variation of the R3 Sensor in order to one up Sony.


To be clear, the 24 MP sensor is a CR3 rumor. The use of a stacked sensor (e.g. that in the R3) was a CR1 rumor that CRguy now deems 'probable' (which is not the same as the near-certainty of a CR3 rating).

You sounds like the DRoners of a decade ago, harping on about how Canon was not competitive on low ISO dynamic range and since Sony and Nikon had sensors that were so much better, Canon was d00med. Meanwhile, in the real world, Canon went right on gaining market share. 



TonyG said:


> If Canon wants to be aggressive in the marketplace, more lenses will need to come out next year, the competition has high level primes ready to supply to the demand.


Canon has already announced a planned rate of 8 new lenses per year for the next 4 years. That would give Canon the approximate number of mirrorless lenses as E-mount lenses Sony has made (and that's the total count, including several lenses that have been replaced by MkII versions).



TonyG said:


> Just because I hurt your feelings doesn't mean that we are not all waiting for Canon to finish establishing a complete mirrorless ecosystem.


Hurt my feelings? Lol, be serious. I don't care if you're waiting for Canon to build out their system or not, nor does Canon. Sony has had much more time to build out their FF MILC system, since they pioneered the format as mainstream in 2012. It's not a coincidence that Sony moved to FF MILC in the same year that Canon entered the APS-C MILC market, in which Sony was a major force at the time. About 5 years after its launch, the M system became the global best-selling MILC system. Last year, about 17% of all ILCs sold globally were Canon M-series bodies/kits.



TonyG said:


> So forgive me if the truth hurts and I call it as it is and say that as of right now, Sony has more appeal than Canon does.


That's your opinion, to which you are entitled. It's fine that Sony has more appeal to you. I do wonder what you're doing on a Canon gear forum if that's the case. You should be out using your new Sony gear.

As I already stated, Canon's recent mirrorless growth has matched Sony's. That means the fact is to the buying public, Canon's mirrorless system has just as much appeal as Sony's. If you consider cameras overall, Canon actually gained more market share than Sony did last year, meaning overall more buyers are choosing Canon than Sony. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 19, 2022)

max said:


> I don't think it will zoom digitally but only crop the image. I do think that it is cool that when you put on an EFs lens it will crop in the viewfinder also



"Digital zoom" is nothing except another name for cropping. There's absolutely no difference.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 19, 2022)

Bentley said:


> Trust me. You’ll never miss it. I just posted a reply on another person thinking the same thing. I’d even like 2 of the dials if there was room instead of the LCD. Especially now that the RF lenses have the programmable ring.



Just because you don't miss something doesn't mean no one else will miss the same thing. Many folks won't, but some will.

The top LCD is very useful in situations where you're shooting in very dim environments and need to be as discrete as possible and the rear LCD screen is way too bright. Something like shooting a concert from the side of the stage or down low in front of the audience. In addition to wearing all black you really don't want to light up the rear LCD screen and become a distraction. If you're shooting with more than one body it's a lot easier to check each one using the dim top LCD screen than pulling each body up to your eye to use the viewfinder. Not to mention that in a crowded bar with a band on a much brighter stage, when you look in the VF to change a setting some drunk dude always thinks you're taking a picture of his girlfriends ass in the total darkness.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 19, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> I am only stating that if the R6 II comes out before R1, I would not expect a stacked sensor in it because it would take away a key selling point for Canon's flagship.
> 
> Stacked sensors will eventually trickle down to R5, R6, and beyond, just don't see it happening this quickly in the R6 II.



Again, why do you think the R6 Mark II will be out before the R1? I find that highly doubtful for the reasons I've already stated.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 19, 2022)

Kit. said:


> With no dual CFexpress slots?
> 
> Highly unlikely.





RayValdez360 said:


> that makes no sense. It just seems as if Canon needed a sports camera for the R Series. It's too close to the older 1DX3 to be a next gen flagship and doesnt have Dual CF Express.




The EOS R3 has one CFexpress slot and one UHS-II SDXC slot.

This is in line with seven of the eleven EOS 1-Series digital bodies released so far.

Fewer of Canon's 1D series have had two slots with the fastest technology at the time than those models that have one "cutting edge" slot and one lesser slot compatible with the same cards as previous/lower models.

The 1D and 1Ds had a single CF slot.

The 1D Mark II, 1D Mark IIn, 1D Mark III, 1D Mark IV, 1Ds Mark II, and 1Ds Mark III all had one CF and one SD slot.

Only the 1D X had dual CF card slots.

The 1D X Mark II had one CFast 2.0 slot and one CF slot.

Only the 1D X Mark III has dual CFexpress slots.

So only two out of eleven digital EOS 1-Series have had twin highest speed slots.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 19, 2022)

peters said:


> Sounds reasonable
> 
> So a little bit early R5 II release would be possible as well... looking forward to this.
> Main features I would hope for (since they fixed the overheat) would be more DR in video (which the R5 is quite a bit behind compard to the competition). Also Full Size HDMI and 1080p with 240 frames (shouldnt be a problem at all with the current datarates the R5 offers).



I never have understood why video shooters keep begging for more Dynamic Range. Professional film/video shooters are supposed to know how to control light so they don't need unrealistic DR performance from their cameras. Yes, this includes shooting outdoors in bright sunlight. Large scrims and graduated ND filters have been a staple of studio productions for almost 100 years.


----------



## Katootje (Oct 19, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> I've been looking at the Solmeta clone in case my GP-E2 breaks down: https://www.solmeta.com/Product/show/id/31
> 
> The handful of reviews that I could find imply that it works just like the GP-E2, but I don't have any first hand experience.


Thanks for the tip. Never heard of it and I think that it is not sold in The Netherlands. But I will look into it....


----------



## Aussie shooter (Oct 19, 2022)

AlanF said:


> What is the logical reason for "at least 90%"? I can understand "100%" being the hallmark of amazing and being an absolute value, but anything below that is purely subjective and depends on what the subjects are. For example, for a lazy heron drifting across the sky, I would get close to 100% keepers with just about every DSLR I have used, but for some subjects just a few keepers would be amazing, like a hunting dragonfly or swallow in flight.


Yep. Big animals travelling predictably the af is close to perfect. Small birds, insects etc. No AF can actually track them i properly in most situations. A few frames in a row here and there is the best we can hope for. But I would guess I get triple the number of keepers with my r6 as I did with the 7d2. Actually probably 4 times as many tbh


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 19, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> Canon's unique EF range can still be used on Sony E mount with an adapter


True, but some of the capabilities of the camera would be diminished.
The #1 reason that I stuck with Canon is how well EF lenses work with Canon mirrorless.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 19, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> "Digital zoom" is nothing except another name for cropping. There's absolutely no difference.


Sony "Clear Image Zoom" also does some interpolation.


----------



## rpiotr01 (Oct 19, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> To be clear, the 24 MP sensor is a CR3 rumor. The use of a stacked sensor (e.g. that in the R3) was a CR1 rumor that CRguy now deems 'probable' (which is not the same as the near-certainty of a CR3 rating).
> 
> You sounds like the DRoners of a decade ago, harping on about how Canon was not competitive on low ISO dynamic range and since Sony and Nikon had sensors that were so much better, Canon was d00med. Meanwhile, in the real world, Canon went right on gaining market share.


Has it been 10 years already? I guess you're right, I remember buying the 5DIII for a trip and loving it, and then everyone on the interwebs said how terrible the camera was because it couldn't do a thing that I never in my life really thought of doing. Time flies!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 19, 2022)

rpiotr01 said:


> Has it been 10 years already? I guess you're right, I remember buying the 5DIII for a trip and loving it, and then everyone on the interwebs said how terrible the camera was because it couldn't do a thing that I never in my life really thought of doing. Time flies!


Oh you needed to do it, you just didn't know it. That was the year that I visited the Musée d'Exmor in Paris, where the lighting is intentionally so poor that I needed to push the exposure 10 stops to recover my pictures. Here's a shot from the visit:


----------



## rpiotr01 (Oct 19, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Oh you needed to do it, you just didn't know it. That was the year that I visited the Musée d'Exmor in Paris, where the lighting is intentionally so poor that I needed to push the exposure 10 stops to recover my pictures. Here's a shot from the visit:
> 
> View attachment 205996


Good thing you went when you did, nowadays you'd barely get the shot what with all the selfie sticks.


----------



## HMC11 (Oct 19, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Oh you needed to do it, you just didn't know it. That was the year that I visited the Musée d'Exmor in Paris, where the lighting is intentionally so poor that I needed to push the exposure 10 stops to recover my pictures. Here's a shot from the visit:
> 
> View attachment 205996


Is your focus the "Canon is d00med" sales prediction chart on the left? Everything else is kind of blurry.........


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 19, 2022)

HMC11 said:


> Is your focus the "Canon is d00med" sales prediction chart on the left? Everything else is kind of blurry.........


That was 2012 Sony AF. 

I jest.


----------



## John Wilde (Oct 19, 2022)

TonyG said:


> If Canon wants to be aggressive in the marketplace, more lenses will need to come out next year, the competition has high level primes ready to supply to the demand.


Below graphic created by Canon:


----------



## TonyG (Oct 19, 2022)

John Wilde said:


> Below graphic created by Canon:


That’s exactly my point, the faster they get them out, the more competitive they will be. I’m not sure why suggesting they push the bounds and come out with more aggressive products is such a bad thing….


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 19, 2022)

John Wilde said:


> Below graphic created by Canon:



You can draw pretty much any curve through 2 points. For example, Canon could discontinue all RF lenses after 2023:



I wish companies would stop publishing vague graph-like things and say straight out what they are going to do.

Also: the y axis is both unlabeled and undefined, so we don't even know if that bigger bar in 2023 actually means "more than 2022".


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 19, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> You can draw pretty much any curve through 2 points. For example, Canon could discontinue all RF lenses after 2023:
> View attachment 205999
> 
> 
> ...


This isn't a graph in a peer-reviewed publication, it's a graph in a business-focused slide deck. It's pretty clear from the data point labels on the first two bars that the Y axis is number of RF lenses, especially since the word "Lenses" is at the top of the graphic. The only other text on the graphic is, "Expand lens lineup at same pace." Since there are only actual two data points, the words 'same pace' define the slope of the line connecting the future data points. 26 - 18 = 8 lenses per year. That tracks with the visual.

Personally, I'd have rotated the red arrow and text a few degrees counterclockwise so the slope of the arrow matched the slope of the bars, but that's just me.

Of course, even though I think it's very clear what they are claiming, I recognize that doesn't necessarily mean they'll deliver those 8 lenses/year over the next four years. I think we're at 6 new lenses so far in 2022.


----------



## TonyG (Oct 19, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> This isn't a graph in a peer-reviewed publication, it's a graph in a business-focused slide deck. It's pretty clear from the data point labels on the first two bars that the Y axis is number of RF lenses, especially since the word "Lenses" is at the top of the graphic. The only other text on the graphic is, "Expand lens lineup at same pace." Since there are only actual two data points, the words 'same pace' define the slope of the line connecting the future data points. 26 - 18 = 8 lenses per year. That tracks with the visual.
> 
> Personally, I'd have rotated the red arrow and text a few degrees counterclockwise so the slope of the arrow matched the slope of the bars, but that's just me.
> 
> Of course, even though I think it's very clear what they are claiming, I recognize that doesn't necessarily mean they'll deliver those 8 lenses/year over the next four years. I think we're at 6 new lenses so far in 2022.


Yes, we are at 6 lenses so far this year as well as last year. The numbers on the graph are not correct. The graph might be an old projection from years ago.

2020 we had 17 lenses in the RF Line.
2021 we had 24 lenses (+7)
2022 thus far we are at 30 (+6).
Unfortunately, this does not follow the 8 per year model, but lets hope we can get another lens or two in the next month maybe.
I hope the 35mm is next.
If they can release the missing L primes next year, they will really start to crush the market.

Edit: I also noticed a pattern that releases are 2 lenses at a time. Also not sure they are counting the 2 extenders that are not in my calculation.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 19, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> I wish companies would stop publishing vague graph-like things and say straight out what they are going to do.


Canon is very market driven.
They probably are not even sure what they are going to do.
I do wish they had lens roadmaps like Nikon, Fuji, and OM have.


----------



## Steve Balcombe (Oct 19, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Musée d'Exmor


LOL! Great post.


----------



## peters (Oct 19, 2022)

navastronia said:


> Extremely bright day near the beach taking event photos for a client where it would benefit me to shoot large-aperture primes wide open. I suppose I could buy and fiddle with ND filters on-site, but you know . . . it would be more fun to buy a new camera, wouldn't you agree??? lol


Ha, I totaly agree on that! =) =)


----------



## peters (Oct 19, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> I never have understood why video shooters keep begging for more Dynamic Range. Professional film/video shooters are supposed to know how to control light so they don't need unrealistic DR performance from their cameras. Yes, this includes shooting outdoors in bright sunlight. Large scrims and graduated ND filters have been a staple of studio productions for almost 100 years.


Your understanding on everyday work appears to be a bit limited than ;-)
Jokes aside: We are not talking about large cinema or very expensive commercial productions. In these cases you would certainly not use a hybrid camera.
When talking about hybrid cameras like the R5 we talk about mid sized producitons. Here you dont always have the time and money to set the light the way you want. Especialy not outdoor or on large places. Often you get just confronted with the situation as it is. For a simple imagefilm you cant light out an entire production hall or remove the sun from the windows. You cant change the light in event-documentaries. And you cant change the light during weddings, where you get confronted with LOTS of challenging lighting situation. You cant just set up large scrims or use graduated ND filters to fix things like this. These situations may be okay with 14 stops of DR in photomode. But certainly not with 10 stops which the R5 offers in videomode. More dynamic range just gives you way more possibilites to frame a shot or to work quickly in more demanding situations, where you cant control the light.

Also, the R5 is realy far behind to the competition when it comes to DR in video, not just a bit. Photo is very good, overall video quality is also quite good. Handling, Autofocus, reliability, lenses, etc. is also excellent. But DR in video with its 10 Stops is realy not that great. The R5C is NOTEABLE better (I had both and worked with both cameras in combination). But the R5C got a lot of other problems which makes it a pretty annoying camera to use in my experience (worse AF and extremelly bad battery performance forces you to rig it up, which makes is way less easy and quick to use).
Sony offers in the A7 III an impressive 12,9 stops of DR while the R5 offers 10,8. These are very similar cameras (similar price, formfactor, reslution). So I dont understand why you think that asking for a better DR in the R5 II is in any way "begging for unrealistic DR performance". Especialy since the R5C with the same sensor managed to offer a way better DR.


----------



## David - Sydney (Oct 20, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> True, but some of the capabilities of the camera would be diminished.
> The #1 reason that I stuck with Canon is how well EF lenses work with Canon mirrorless.


The rest of my post showed how the Sony camera + adapter wouldn't be compromised too much in performance....
"AF isn't an issue for TS-E and MP-E lenses. For the fisheye zoom (which I do use occasionally) setting the manual focus to infinity fits almost all use cases."

There was an obvious choice for me to move to R mount mirrorless using my existing EF lenses. I never considered using adapters with Sony. It was fortunate for the lockdowns to enable money saved from travelling to fund my transition


----------



## David - Sydney (Oct 20, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> Very true but I just got my insurance annual premium and it is clear that I have too much gear even if it is only ~3% of replacement value!!!
> Great value for piece of mind especially for underwater stuff and global travel.


Bad news though when I checked the replacement cost of each item with increases from 10% to 20% across the board. The stronger USD would account for most of it even though the AUD has strengthened against the JPY by 10% over the last year so Canon is using pricing in USD on a global basis.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 20, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Sony "Clear Image Zoom" also does some interpolation.



"Clear Image Zoom" ≠ "Digital Zoom"


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 20, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> "Clear Image Zoom" ≠ "Digital Zoom"


Does “Digital Tele-converter” = “Digital Zoom”?


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 20, 2022)

TonyG said:


> Yes, we are at 6 lenses so far this year as well as last year. The numbers on the graph are not correct. The graph might be an old projection from years ago.
> 
> 2020 we had 17 lenses in the RF Line.
> 2021 we had 24 lenses (+7)
> ...



Canon classifies extenders as lenses in both their catalogs and in departmental reports, so I'd think Canon does count those new extenders as two of the new lenses for 2020.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 20, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Does “Digital Tele-converter” = “Digital Zoom”?



Maybe. Consider the additional context of an intermediate comment by another poster that said, "I don't think it will zoom digitally but only crop the image."


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 20, 2022)

peters said:


> DR in video with its 10 Stops


The 10 stops were from before CLOG 3 was added.
The R5 and R6 originally shipped with CLOG 1.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 20, 2022)

TonyG said:


> Yes, we are at 6 lenses so far this year as well as last year. The numbers on the graph are not correct. The graph might be an old projection from years ago.
> 
> 2020 we had 17 lenses in the RF Line.
> 2021 we had 24 lenses (+7)
> ...


The numbers on the graph are correct. It's rather silly to suggest that Canon is somehow unable to keep track of their own lens release dates or count them correctly. Sure, mistakes happen but this is a pretty simple thing to check. I suspect you're basing your count on someone's published list, e.g. this one.

To see Canon's counting, I suggest going to the source – the Canon Camera Museum:






View by series - Canon Camera Museum


You can see Canon's cameras by product series.



global.canon





The downside to that is they don't update it all that frequently, so the most recent RF lenses listed are the trio released in July 2021 (400/2.8, 600/4 and 100/2.8 Macro). One big upside is that they have block diagrams for all the lenses, which is sort of neat for us nerds. Note also that the date they use is the 'marketed date' not the announcement date. That's the source of the discrepancy with your count (or if you prefer, the miscount by your unofficial source).

In 2020, by Canon's count there were 18 lenses (based on the Museum page linked above). That includes the 1.4x and 2x extenders, but not the 70-200/4L IS since that was announced in Dec 2020 but the release date was pushed back to April 2021. Thus, there were 8 new lenses in 2021, not 7, bringing the total to 26.

On the upside for us, that means if Canon sticks to their previous statement we can expect to see two more lenses this year. Time will tell.


----------



## Monte (Oct 20, 2022)

Just an outside of the box thought, what if “ Digital Tele-converter” is a new innovation where the sensor carriage can be moved back from the lens mount within the body for a full sensor “crop”. The sensor being slightly farther from the back of the lens would be capturing a smaller area of the projected image coming from the lens, a cropped image yet using the whole sensor. Not sure how much of a step back the sensor would have to make, 4 or 5mm?
Just a guess.


----------



## mxwphoto (Oct 20, 2022)

Monte said:


> Just an outside of the box thought, what if “ Digital Tele-converter” is a new innovation where the sensor carriage can be moved back from the lens mount within the body for a full sensor “crop”. The sensor being slightly farther from the back of the lens would be capturing a smaller area of the projected image coming from the lens, a cropped image yet using the whole sensor. Not sure how much of a step back the sensor would have to make, 4 or 5mm?
> Just a guess.


That would be a mechanical teleconverter rather than digital and work just like extension tubes. How much gets affected per mm of movement depends on the focal length of the lens attached and this would increase the weight, size, cost, and complexity of the camera body; great out of the box (or is that in the box? =D ) thought, just not very likely to happen.


----------



## mxwphoto (Oct 20, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Again, why do you think the R6 Mark II will be out before the R1? I find that highly doubtful for the reasons I've already stated.


I am confused by your assertion of what I have said and what you are doubtful of. 

I am of the position that IF the R6 II comes out before the R1 it is likely not to have a stacked sensor.

That said, given that this is CR3 rumor on R6 II and we haven't heard much of R1 aside from some wild wish lists, there is more of a chance of a R6 II coming out before the R1 gets introduced.


----------



## Traveler (Oct 20, 2022)

Aussie shooter said:


> Having moved from the 7d2 to the r6, I initially thought I would miss the top screen as well but tbh, with the amount of info available in the viewfinder I never feel the need for the top screen anymore.


Depends on your workflow. For me, it’s really useful to check/change settings before putting the camera to my eye. Sometimes that split of a second makes the shot.


----------



## Traveler (Oct 20, 2022)

Bentley said:


> I came from the 5D mkiii. I absolutely love the pasm dial instead of the LCD screen. Don’t miss it at all. Actually my previous 3 Canon cameras had it. That was probably the only hesitation instead of the r5. I don’t need 45 mp and now that I know the r6 is so programmable I’m so glad I bought it.


I hate the rotating mode switch, it’s so oldschool. The modes on the R/R5 are much more useful. The Fv mode is actually the only mode you need (canon just needs to work on customizing it a bit more). And it’s so convenient to be able to switch between C1-C3 with the switch next to the shutter button. 
Canon should really fine tune that, provide us with more custom modes that I can name (e.g. Tripod, Portrait, …)


----------



## Hector1970 (Oct 20, 2022)

Traveler said:


> Depends on your workflow. For me, it’s really useful to check/change settings before putting the camera to my eye. Sometimes that split of a second makes the shot.


It's funny I've a number of cameras with top screens but I never pay any attention to them. You are right, it is a useful way of checking setting before putting the camera to the eye. It's definitely more distinctive on the R5 as its illuminated. The older LCD screen the numbers didn't seem to jump out at me. I've always used whats in the viewfinder or backscreen. Something for me to consider paying more attention to in the future.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Oct 20, 2022)

Traveler said:


> Depends on your workflow. For me, it’s really useful to check/change settings before putting the camera to my eye. Sometimes that split of a second makes the shot.


Oh. I totally get that as I primarily focus on wildlife photography where speed is of the utmost importance. Moreso than any other niche I would guess. Which means my eye rarely leaves the viewfinder as I can't afford that delay when changing settings.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 20, 2022)

Traveler said:


> I hate the rotating mode switch, it’s so oldschool. The modes on the R/R5 are much more useful. The Fv mode is actually the only mode you need (canon just needs to work on customizing it a bit more). And it’s so convenient to be able to switch between C1-C3 with the switch next to the shutter button.
> Canon should really fine tune that, provide us with more custom modes that I can name (e.g. Tripod, Portrait, …)


You can switch C1-C3 and Fv, ie four choices, on customizing the M-fn button to choose mode.I leave C1-C3 not being updateable.


----------



## TonyG (Oct 20, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> The numbers on the graph are correct. It's rather silly to suggest that Canon is somehow unable to keep track of their own lens release dates or count them correctly. Sure, mistakes happen but this is a pretty simple thing to check. I suspect you're basing your count on someone's published list, e.g. this one.
> 
> To see Canon's counting, I suggest going to the source – the Canon Camera Museum:
> 
> ...



Actually, you assumed wrong. 
I used the list of lenses from Canons website and looked up all of their announce dates. Wikipedia actually has a nice, detailed listing there.
Why would I use the site you suggested that is not updated frequently? They still don't have the latest lenses, but sure, you can rely on it.. 
The 70-200 f4 was announced November 2020 (originally available December 2020) beside the 50 1.8 stm. Just because they delayed shipping them out, still gives it a 2020 announce date. 
Unless they knew their projections for 2021 and wanted to add another lens to the yearly line up and delayed it on purpose....

By their release dates there were 19 lenses (including the teleconverters) available by the end of 2020 
7 more were released in 2021, so far 6 were released this year. 
Hopefully there is another 2 lens announcement in the next month (I hope it's the 35mm).


----------



## jam05 (Oct 20, 2022)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The 24.1mp BSI sensor already exists (it's the best sensor that Canon has ever made by many metrics), and it's cheaper to use something that you're already producing instead of retooling for something new or continuing to produce something 'old' in the case of the 20.2mp sensor.


Its old and outdated. The stacked CMOS is the defacto standard. Actuall sracked sensor devices are cheaper to manufacture and with new nm technology are more efficient.


----------



## jam05 (Oct 20, 2022)

Old BSI CMOS sensor with some added copy and paste firmware. Waiting for Canon to roll out the rest of their stacked sensors as they've announced. Not purchasing any more high end digital cameras with these old recycled junk sensors. Saving my hard earned moola for up to date hardware. The defacto standard is the stacked sensor. Sure, there are uninformed consumers that will fall for mere firmware upgrades that any firmware engineer can copy and paste.


----------



## jam05 (Oct 20, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Old BSI CMOS sensor with some added copy and paste firmware. Waiting for Canon to roll out the rest of their stacked sensors as they've announced. Not purchasing any more high end digital cameras with these old recycled junk sensors. Saving my hard earned moola for up to date hardware. The defacto standard is the stacked sensor. Sure, there are uninformed consumers that will fall for mere firmware upgrades that any firmware engineer can copy and paste. Non stacked sensor devices should be priced sub $500. Due to "inflation", there's no indication this will be the case any time soon.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 20, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Old BSI CMOS sensor with some added copy and paste firmware. Waiting for Canon to roll out the rest of their stacked sensors as they've announced. Not purchasing any more high end digital cameras with these old recycled junk sensors. Saving my hard earned moola for up to date hardware. The defacto standard is the stacked sensor. Sure, there are uninformed consumers that will fall for mere firmware upgrades that any firmware engineer can copy and paste.


"Junk", really? The old sensors produce fine images. Will the newer design be noticeably better in most situations? I'm doubtful.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 20, 2022)

TonyG said:


> Why would I use the site you suggested that is not updated frequently? They still don't have the latest lenses, but sure, you can rely on it..
> The 70-200 f4 was announced November 2020 (originally available December 2020) beside the 50 1.8 stm. Just because they delayed shipping them out, still gives it a 2020 announce date.
> Unless they knew their projections for 2021 and wanted to add another lens to the yearly line up and delayed it on purpose....
> 
> ...


The site I linked is maintained by Canon Japan, the same folks who made the graphic we're discussing. You are free to disagree with the manufacturer's count of their own lenses, of course...but your disagreement doesn't make their count wrong.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 20, 2022)

TonyG said:


> The 70-200 f4 was announced November 2020 (originally available December 2020) beside the 50 1.8 stm. Just because they delayed shipping them out, still gives it a 2020 announce date.


Also, note that Canon officially delayed the release date for the RF 70-200/4 from Dec 2020 to Mar 2021.






「RF70-200mm F4 L IS USM」の発売延期のお知らせ


「RF70-200mm F4 L IS USM」の発売延期のお知らせについてご案内しているページです。




cweb-canon-jp.translate.goog


----------



## TonyG (Oct 20, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Also, note that Canon officially delayed the release date for the RF 70-200/4 from Dec 2020 to Mar 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


FYI the RF Roadmap shows it as announced November 4th 2020.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 20, 2022)

TonyG said:


> FYI the RF Roadmap shows it as announced November 4th 2020.


That’s fine but irrelevant. Do you think that Canon HQ should rely on the Canon Rumors RF Lens Roadmap to count their lens releases? 

Personally, I think lenses should be counted when they start shipping, not when Canon announces them. Canon does, too. Consider the EF 600/4 II – it had a development announcement in Aug 2010, a formal announcement in Feb 2011, but was not actually marketed until mid-2012. You might call it a 2010 or 2011 lens, but Canon calls it a 2012 lens (I preordered mine from B&H and received it in Oct 2012).


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 20, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> That’s fine but irrelevant. Do you think that Canon HQ should rely on the Canon Rumors RF Lens Roadmap to count their lens releases?
> 
> Personally, I think lenses should be counted when they start shipping, not when Canon announces them. Canon does, too. Consider the EF 600/4 II – it had a development announcement in Aug 2010, a formal announcement in Feb 2011, but was not actually marketed until mid-2012. You might call it a 2010 or 2011 lens, but Canon calls it a 2012 lens (I preordered mine from B&H and received it in Oct 2012).


Which implies that we could have those 2 unreleased and unanounced lenses physically in hand around x-mas!


----------



## peters (Oct 20, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> The 10 stops were from before CLOG 3 was added.
> The R5 and R6 originally shipped with CLOG 1.


As far as I can see and tell Clog 3 doesnt make realy a different. According to the tests I saw it can add .5 stops of DR in the hightlights but it introduces more noise in the shadows. I did not test it in detail, but on the second shooting where I used Clog 3 it realy produced some crazy ugly noise in the shadows. So I stick to Clog 1. So not a real change in my experience...


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 21, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> always thinking of the non existant security features on cameras and canon could lead the way, since NO cameras (correct me if I'm wrong) have anything to prevent a stolen camera being used. A simple screen lock with 6 digits would be a start.


Well, that wouldn't stop it being stolen. Frustrate the thief? Yes. Most snatchers aren't aware of the model they're snatching.


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 21, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> Yes, but people would complain that it takes too long from power on button to taking a shot. Another option could be to require a security code when inserting a new card.
> Selling second hand would be more problematic as well... they could sell you the body and then after delivery require you to pay something more for the code. Not quite blackmail but nasty all the same.


If my banking info was on the camera a passcode would be useful. Otherwise, not so much.


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 21, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Not purchasing any more high end digital cameras with these old recycled junk sensors.


----------



## Michael Clark (Oct 21, 2022)

Monte said:


> Just an outside of the box thought, what if “ Digital Tele-converter” is a new innovation where the sensor carriage can be moved back from the lens mount within the body for a full sensor “crop”. The sensor being slightly farther from the back of the lens would be capturing a smaller area of the projected image coming from the lens, a cropped image yet using the whole sensor. Not sure how much of a step back the sensor would have to make, 4 or 5mm?
> Just a guess.



Increasing the distance between the lens and sensor would have the exact same effect as extension tubes:

1) You'd lose infinity focus. The greater the increase in distance, the closer the maximum focus distance would be.

2) The image falling on the sensor would expand, not contract. The further away from the lens, the wider the cone of light will become.


----------



## Monte (Oct 21, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Increasing the distance between the lens and sensor would have the exact same effect as extension tubes:
> 
> 1) You'd lose infinity focus. The greater the increase in distance, the closer the maximum focus distance would be.
> 
> 2) The image falling on the sensor would expand, not contract. The further away from the lens, the wider the cone of light will become.


Good point on the focus distance issues. As for point 2, that where I was going in thought though, the rectangle sensor would be capturing a smaller area within the larger projected image cone, kind of like a cropped sensor camera yet you’d still be using all of the full frame sensor pixels as opposed to a “digital crop” of 1.6 like we can already do with the full frame cameras which we loose a lot of pixels.
But as you pointed out, maximum focus range would/could be an issue.


----------



## TonyG (Oct 21, 2022)

Monte said:


> Good point on the focus distance issues. As for point 2, that where I was going in thought though, the rectangle sensor would be capturing a smaller area within the larger projected image cone, kind of like a cropped sensor camera yet you’d still be using all of the full frame sensor pixels as opposed to a “digital crop” of 1.6 like we can already do with the full frame cameras which we loose a lot of pixels.
> But as you pointed out, maximum focus range would/could be an issue.


I think Digital would imply some software magic in camera rather than a physical action, but they might have some combination of both in order to make it work. Maybe they'll use the ibis will move the sensor back and forth while the software compensates for it? But wouldn't that make the body thicker?
I am not an expert but throwing the idea out there.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 21, 2022)

TonyG said:


> I think Digital would imply some software magic in camera rather than a physical action, but they might have some combination of both in order to make it work. Maybe they'll use the ibis will move the sensor back and forth while the software compensates for it? But wouldn't that make the body thicker?
> I am not an expert but throwing the idea out there.


@Michael Clark has answered this. 'Digital' 1.4x probably means that the firmware takes a 1.4x1.4 crop from the centre of the full frame and then increases the resolution by 1.4x1.4 electronically. Moving the sensor backwards or forwards shouldn't come into it.


----------



## BlackNDBlue (Oct 21, 2022)

speg said:


> As someone about to upgrade from Rp to R6 within the next 6-8 weeks… I have no idea what to do


As someone who has 2 RP's (one is a full spectrum IR camera) and an R6, let me just say this, since I got the R6 I don't even want to use my RP which is the reason why I converted one to an IR Camera and I'll probably will eventually be selling the other RP. Just wish I would have converted the newer camera, which has been hardly used. RP's are not even in the same league as the R6 and I will probably get the new one when it is available. If I were you, if you have the budget, I wouldn't wait. Cheers!


----------



## steen-ag (Oct 21, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Sony "Clear Image Zoom" also does some interpolation.


Digital Crop just like on a iPhone


----------



## SteveC (Oct 21, 2022)

Ozarker said:


> Well, that wouldn't stop it being stolen. Frustrate the thief? Yes. Most snatchers aren't aware of the model they're snatching.


Besides, what would that passcode actually do? There will have to be a reset of some kind. Such a thing on a phone usually wipes out everything in memory, but then you can use the phone. A phone thief might want that info...but I doubt a camera thief would care about your C1-C3 settings.


----------



## Curahee (Oct 21, 2022)

R6 is also cropped


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 21, 2022)

SteveC said:


> Besides, what would that passcode actually do? There will have to be a reset of some kind.


It would brick the camera. Then when you forget your own passcode, Canon could reset it for you if you provide proof of purchase. And charge you to do so.


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 21, 2022)

AlanF said:


> @Michael Clark has answered this. 'Digital' 1.4x probably means that the firmware takes a 1.4x1.4 crop from the centre of the full frame and then increases the resolution by 1.4x1.4 electronically. Moving the sensor backwards or forwards shouldn't come into it.


That's all we need, another moving part .  I thought flange distance had a purpose.


----------



## stevelee (Oct 22, 2022)

HMC11 said:


> Is your focus the "Canon is d00med" sales prediction chart on the left? Everything else is kind of blurry.........


The DXO seems closer to being in focus than almost anything else in the picture.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 22, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> It would brick the camera. Then when you forget your own passcode, Canon could reset it for you if you provide proof of purchase. And charge you to do so.


If the camera does not lock on failed attempts then it would still be hackable.
If it does, then someone can lock you out of your camera when you most need it.


----------



## Refraction (Oct 22, 2022)

My R6 was in use last night shooing a school concert. Total of 3 hours. Shot in FHD 25p IPB (There is no All-I option in the R6) Firmware is UTD. Anyway, it overheated and shut down with a half hour to go. Canon still have a serious overheating problem with this camera so they need to address it in the version ii.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 22, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> always thinking of the non existant security features on cameras and canon could lead the way, since NO cameras (correct me if I'm wrong) have anything to prevent a stolen camera being used. A simple screen lock with 6 digits would be a start.


So many closed-minded commenters. This is actually a very good idea. To answer the naysayers:

Owner can decide whether or not to activate the feature in menus. Those who don't like it don't have to use it.
Owner can set the length of time before the camera locks.
Face recognition can be used just like iPhones so that a simple glance at the camera's backside will unlock it.
No security is foolproof, but once it is widely implemented it will serve as a strong deterrent.
Canon can send a unique code to user's cell phone to unlock the camera if you forget the code or otherwise can't open it. 
Lenses could even be locked unless they are mounted on a camera.
Add a "find my camera" app to make recovery easier.


----------



## Chig (Oct 22, 2022)

unfocused said:


> So many closed-minded commenters. This is actually a very good idea. To answer the naysayers:
> 
> Owner can decide whether or not to activate the feature in menus. Those who don't like it don't have to use it.
> Owner can set the length of time before the camera locks.
> ...


Yes, I agree these security features have worked well on smartphones reducing theft enormously. If Canon rolls this out it'll be very popular, perhaps even as a firmware update for existing cameras ?


----------



## Joel C (Oct 23, 2022)

Refraction said:


> My R6 was in use last night shooing a school concert. Total of 3 hours. Shot in FHD 25p IPB (There is no All-I option in the R6) Firmware is UTD. Anyway, it overheated and shut down with a half hour to go. Canon still have a serious overheating problem with this camera so they need to address it in the version ii.


A lot of folks on here like to claim that Canon can do no wrong. That said, this is a clear issue that should not exist in equipment of this modern era. Like, it just overheats doing something it is supposed to do? It's insane. I know that my R6 has overheated also in certain instances, yes, after the firmware it has been rare, but, when it comes to having to rely on filming and images, I cannot afford to not bring backup cameras with me simply because they will not function....
~
I am hoping that if this rumor turns out to be true and they are updating this camera so soon, I would hope that I can get some kind of serious trade in value from Canon on replacing with the updated version without having to try and sell it on marketplace.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 23, 2022)

Joel C said:


> A lot of folks on here like to claim that Canon can do no wrong.


[citation needed]


----------



## jam05 (Oct 23, 2022)

2022 entry level FF camera with a non stacked sensor.


----------



## bergstrom (Oct 23, 2022)

scyrene said:


> [citation needed]



they probably agree with Putin too. idiots


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 23, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> they probably agree with Putin too. idiots


Thanks for providing the citation needed to show that you are an ass.


----------



## Czardoom (Oct 23, 2022)

Canon can do and has done plenty that is wrong, but there is an old saying, "get the right tool for the job".

Shooting 3 hours of video with what is primarily a stills FF camera? Not a Canon problem.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 23, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> Canon can do and has done plenty that is wrong, but there is an old saying, "get the right tool for the job".
> 
> Shooting 3 hours of video with what is primarily a stills FF camera? Not a Canon problem.


Agreed. I don’t shoot long videos, and I’m not sure that my R3 would overheat even if I did. But for video I use a Vixia HF G60 because a camcorder is the right tool for the job (for me, of course).


----------



## bergstrom (Oct 23, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> Canon can do and has done plenty that is wrong, but there is an old saying, "get the right tool for the job".
> 
> Shooting 3 hours of video with what is primarily a stills FF camera? Not a Canon problem.



The R3 can do it no problem. The R6 was a failure in that regard. even a 6Dii can do it.


----------



## Joel C (Oct 23, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> Canon can do and has done plenty that is wrong, but there is an old saying, "get the right tool for the job".
> 
> Shooting 3 hours of video with what is primarily a stills FF camera? Not a Canon problem.


You mean the EOS R? That thing can shoot video all day without overheating. Or, the RP? That camera I have has been running for over a year basically never being turned off... 
Or, are we talking about the R5 that was all marketing to 8K VIDEO!!! 8K! 8K! Then would overheat and completely shut down after just being turned on for a half hour lol.


----------



## Joel C (Oct 23, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Agreed. I don’t shoot long videos, and I’m not sure that my R3 would overheat even if I did. But for video I use a Vixia HF G60 because a camcorder is the right tool for the job (for me, of course).


I think everyone on this forum would love to have the seemingly unlimited budget to own every iteration of canon camera to use for every specific job. In the real world we all have to operate within our budget limitations, and it's really lame to be let down by the leader in camera sales.


----------



## beccanovak (Oct 23, 2022)

Guess I'll just stick to my R6  Don't feel like this is enough to upgrade sadly.
-Becca Novak
Wedding photographer in Nashville


----------



## jam05 (Oct 23, 2022)

There's no wow factor here. This isn't a stacked sensor device. I hope that I'm wrong. Indications tell me otherwise. The person leaking the specks would know that if it was, and it would be apart of the buzz. Camera manufacturers need to put nails in the coffin of these non stacked sensors and let them die already. Else they are in entry level cameras only. $600 or less


----------



## stevelee (Oct 24, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> The R3 can do it no problem. The R6 was a failure in that regard. even a 6Dii can do it.


The 6Dii does not shoot 4K video except for time-lapse. I think it has a 30 minute limit per shot, but you can keep taking more 30 minute shots.


----------



## Traveler (Oct 24, 2022)

AlanF said:


> You can switch C1-C3 and Fv, ie four choices, on customizing the M-fn button to choose mode.I leave C1-C3 not being updateable.


But not on the R6. I can’t program a button to quickly switch between C1-C3


----------



## TonyG (Oct 24, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> Canon can do and has done plenty that is wrong, but there is an old saying, "get the right tool for the job".
> 
> Shooting 3 hours of video with what is primarily a stills FF camera? Not a Canon problem.


It is a Canon problem because Sony can do it. If you are shopping for primarily stills, then there is no issue. If you are competing in the market with video features, it is a problem.
Maybe that new liquid vapor chamber patent will be used in the mk2


----------



## SilverBox (Oct 24, 2022)

I wonder if this means that we will see an R1 announcement before we see an R5 ii announcement, as they will need a new high megapixel BSi sensor for the R1 and the eventual R5 ii. Or maybe we get a 60pm BSi R5 ii while they test the market and hopefully finally bring the Quad Pixel AF to fruition in the R1.


----------



## TonyG (Oct 24, 2022)

SilverBox said:


> I wonder if this means that we will see an R1 announcement before we see an R5 ii announcement, as they will need a new high megapixel BSi sensor for the R1 and the eventual R5 ii. Or maybe we get a 60pm BSi R5 ii while they test the market and hopefully finally bring the Quad Pixel AF to fruition in the R1.


I would assume the R1 would have to be available spring 2024 the latest in order to have them out for the Summer Olympics. Maybe by fall/winter 2023 we would be getting some reliable cr3 specs?
I think it would also be strategic to wait until the last second before the Olympics because Canons competition is due for an A9iii and maybe an A1ii, and if they can time it to release after Sony does, then they can make sure they have features to pull ahead of Sony's latest feature list at release.

If the R6ii ends up using a variation of the R3 stacked sensor, maybe part of the R1 sensor development is a variation for the R5ii?
From my manufacturing background, streamlining manufacturing processes does create a lot of manufacturing savings.
I am not a fortune teller, but I think it would be more strategic to try and get both R6ii and R5ii out next year and maybe keep the camera cycles on a 3-year refresh. The only issue is if they don't have the R1 sensor down packed yet in order to design it for an R5ii.
The R6 and R5 did a great job of bringing Canon to the mirrorless table competitively and with the R3 and R1, I think that technology would be the trickle down to the R6ii and R5ii.
The only other outcome I can see is the R5ii released maybe fall of 2024 in order to try and space out the bodies. But with Sony's A7Rv being released this week, it would mean Canon is releasing their response to that line in 2 years. This is what leads me to believe it would make more sense and be more strategic to try and get the R5ii out next year with the R6ii.
Having a great product is one thing, but business is a very competitive market and the moment you slouch, someone else pulls ahead.
Technology is advancing at exponential rates these days and I think we will be seeing faster refreshes from all the camera manufacturers.


----------



## peters (Oct 24, 2022)

Joel C said:


> Or, are we talking about the R5 that was all marketing to 8K VIDEO!!! 8K! 8K! Then would overheat and completely shut down after just being turned on for a half hour lol.


This is simply not correct.
Especialy after the last firmware the R5 can record pretty much limitless. Just last week we documented a concert with 3 R5 cameras. All set to 4kHQ (Which is pretty much the same es 8k) and run easily for 3 hours straight.

And btw, in "regular" 4k we had never any overheat problems, even before the firmware update. 
So the overheat problem is pretty much blown out of proportion. 

Its quite interesting: the R5 was extremely hated for the overheating. Now that canon fixed the problem in firmware, there is barely ANY discussion about this.


----------



## Cyborx (Oct 24, 2022)

YEEEY! FULL FRAME instead of 1.1 Crop in 4K60P!
Who on earth would like to upgrade their R6 for the R6 mark II for just this option and 4 extra megapixels?

I don't get it... Why don't make an affordable R3 or finally launch the R1 with global shutter so we are done with these messed up LED and beamer images that go all over the place.

The price will also be something to laugh about, Canons pricing is usually extremely beyond what one would expect, and not in a cheaper way...


----------



## Cyborx (Oct 24, 2022)

usern4cr said:


> On the R5, to switch between eye AF and spot AF you can just assign each to its own back buttons. That's what I do, and what I rely on to take almost all of my shots. I find it works just great. Can you do the same on the R6?


You can assign a button to do eye AF when in spot AF temporarely, but switching is not possible. It stays in spot AF mode.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 24, 2022)

Traveler said:


> But not on the R6. I can’t program a button to quickly switch between C1-C3


I have already posted this in this thread.


AlanF said:


> You can't assign mode switching to a button on the R6 and R7.


----------



## definedphotography (Oct 24, 2022)

Refraction said:


> My R6 was in use last night shooing a school concert. Total of 3 hours. Shot in FHD 25p IPB (There is no All-I option in the R6) Firmware is UTD.



Not sure why you'd use a photo-centric camera to record a long show rather than a camcorder that is designed to do such tasks.
But, yes hopefully Canon will sort the overheating problem in the Mk II.


----------



## stevelee (Oct 24, 2022)

BTW (and sorry for off topic, but maybe for reference), I was shooting 4K video in June (my annual basketball project, so indoors in air conditioning), and my G5X II overheated. I pulled out my iPhone and shot until the Canon cooled down. In both cases I was shooting 4K to give me room to crop to zoom in and out and follow the action and produce good quality 1080p. In the final product, it is not obvious which clips came from which camera. Because of the wider lens, I guess I had less editing leeway with the phone shots. And I did miss the beginning of some clips with the Canon, since the autofocus fished around a bit. I should have just used manual focus in the first place, given the DOF that the little lens has anyway. Set it and forget it. I have always used this project to try out and sometimes learn to use my newer equipment, and this was the first time with the G5, so now I know better.


----------



## Exploreshootshare (Oct 24, 2022)

In Germany, Canon started a winter cash back discount on the R6, so I’m guessing the Mk ii version won’t be coming until February at least. Cash back officially goes until dec, 31st, but a local retailers said he was was told that canon might/ probably/ certainly will extend it until mid-January. With the last few promos canon did extend the deadline for a couple weeks… 

I was hoping for a new camera in 2022, not necessarily to upgrade asap, but to have time and maybe get a camera earlier than planned (summer 2024). Love the R for travel, landscape, portrait and stuff, but the AF & FPS is kind of hellish to use for sports sometimes…

It seems like I’m going to have wait.


----------



## SHAMwow (Oct 24, 2022)

What I don't get is why so many people purchased the camera, with its known shortcomings, and then are blaming the product. I knew everything when I bought my R5, which is why I couldn't care less about the hundreds of overheating videos in the months following launch. If the R6 didn't suit your needs, why buy it? 

Last note, just because a camera CAN, doesn't mean you should. These complaints are exactly how we got to the stagnation during and after the 5D IV release. Canon never releases half-baked things, but then everyone is now upset about 8K/4k in their respective cameras. I've never once shot 8K on the R5. As stated earlier, the R6 is a pocket/affordable mirrorless 1DX and should be applauded for that.


----------



## SHAMwow (Oct 24, 2022)

Exploreshootshare said:


> In Germany, Canon started a winter cash back discount on the R6, so I’m guessing the Mk ii version won’t be coming until February at least. Cash back officially goes until dec, 31st, but a local retailers said he was was told that canon might/ probably/ certainly will extend it until mid-January. With the last few promos canon did extend the deadline for a couple weeks…
> 
> I was hoping for a new camera in 2022, not necessarily to upgrade asap, but to have time and maybe get a camera earlier than planned (summer 2024). Love the R for travel, landscape, portrait and stuff, but the AF & FPS is kind of hellish to use for sports sometimes…
> 
> It seems like I’m going to have wait.


Camera is two years old, why do you guys think its coming out early next year?


----------



## Exploreshootshare (Oct 24, 2022)

SHAMwow said:


> Camera is two years old, why do you guys think its coming out early next year?


Well, honestly:
I have been saying for a long time now, that the R6 only needs an update to make room for well-specd R8 and since I'm in the market and waiting for that kind of camera, I'd love to see it happen sooner than later. And with all the current rumors, I´m probably just growing impatient 

But seriously: My plan is to update/ upgrade in summer/ fall 2024 and keep my R as back-up/ second camera, so if R8 and R6mii are out by then, great! I'd love to see both cameras and have a choice.

But if Canon were to speed things up, I'd join them. But I'd also consider the R6 itself if there is an intriguing offer at of the retailers I check regularly.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 24, 2022)

Refraction said:


> My R6 was in use last night shooing a school concert. Total of 3 hours. Shot in FHD 25p IPB (There is no All-I option in the R6) Firmware is UTD. Anyway, it overheated and shut down with a half hour to go. Canon still have a serious overheating problem with this camera so they need to address it in the version ii.





definedphotography said:


> Not sure why you'd use a photo-centric camera to record a long show rather than a camcorder that is designed to do such tasks.
> But, yes hopefully Canon will sort the overheating problem in the Mk II.


Most courts would find a video of a three-hour school concert to be cruel and unusual punishment. Be thankful Canon shut it down.


----------



## Cyborx (Oct 24, 2022)

Canon will never give you the top LCD on the R6 series. Why should they? They want you to feel like you have bought the second choice camera. So you keep looking at the R5 in the future. They don’t serve you, you serve them!
You want an affordable fullframe body with 45 mpix, inbuilt battery grip, global shutter, fast eye/spot AF switch mode, etc. But they don’t care about you. They will keep producing stuff that is good for them. Not for you. The trick is: you have to keep wishing for better, so you keep buying. The time were Canon made the perfect camera is OVER. They will always leave some specs out that makes it the best camera for you. I bought 2 R6 bodies on a cashback period, so I paid 1800 a piece Tax excluded.
I use my ‘old’ EF lenses. Just to bully them back.

The eye AF is a mayor advantage. That’s why I use these camera’s. They are far from perfect. My R6 bodies sometimes suddenly freeze. The output is horrible when shooting projectorscreens, led lights, tungsten, etc. Even with anti-flicker mode activated.
They cannot even make their products work. As you can tell, I am extremely disappointed in Canon for a while now. And NO I am not a troll, and I am not working for another camera brand. I am a press photographer with a critical view on Canons way of going about these days…

I am waiting for the camera that has 45 mpix, quick shift between eye and spot AF, inbuilt battery grip and a shutter that does not go crazy when shooting tungsten/led/beamerscreens etc.

And when it hits the market I will wait for a cashback or pricedrop. Just because Canons pricing is beyond every limit. 

Canon, come on!


----------



## scyrene (Oct 24, 2022)

TonyG said:


> I think it would also be strategic to wait until the last second before the Olympics because Canons competition is due for an A9iii and maybe an A1ii, and if they can time it to release after Sony does, then they can make sure they have features to pull ahead of Sony's latest feature list at release.



How much do you think they can change at such short notice?



TonyG said:


> Having a great product is one thing, but business is a very competitive market and the moment you slouch, someone else pulls ahead.



I would observe that in terms of sales/market share, the release of any single camera body makes little difference, especially at the top end. Also, pulling ahead in specs (however measured) ≠ pulling ahead in sales - for example, Nikon was lauded for the D800/850 and yet its position declined. Not to mention, chasing the cutting edge may reduce the profitability per unit sold.



TonyG said:


> Technology is advancing at exponential rates these days and I think we will be seeing faster refreshes from all the camera manufacturers.



I don't think camera body tech is advancing exponentially. And as the market has contracted, it might make more sense for longer gaps between updates/less significant changes between generations?


----------



## Cyborx (Oct 24, 2022)

SHAMwow said:


> What I don't get is why so many people purchased the camera, with its known shortcomings, and then are blaming the product. I knew everything when I bought my R5, which is why I couldn't care less about the hundreds of overheating videos in the months following launch. If the R6 didn't suit your needs, why buy it?
> 
> Last note, just because a camera CAN, doesn't mean you should. These complaints are exactly how we got to the stagnation during and after the 5D IV release. Canon never releases half-baked things, but then everyone is now upset about 8K/4k in their respective cameras. I've never once shot 8K on the R5. As stated earlier, the R6 is a pocket/affordable mirrorless 1DX and should be applauded for that.



Why buy the R6? Because there is no alternative. If you come from the 1dX series and want the advantages of eye-AF and don’t want to spend 7000 euro’s per camera.


----------



## bergstrom (Oct 24, 2022)

SHAMwow said:


> What I don't get is why so many people purchased the camera, with its known shortcomings, and then are blaming the product. I knew everything when I bought my R5, which is why I couldn't care less about the hundreds of overheating videos in the months following launch. If the R6 didn't suit your needs, why buy it?
> 
> Last note, just because a camera CAN, doesn't mean you should. These complaints are exactly how we got to the stagnation during and after the 5D IV release. Canon never releases half-baked things, but then everyone is now upset about 8K/4k in their respective cameras. I've never once shot 8K on the R5. As stated earlier, the R6 is a pocket/affordable mirrorless 1DX and should be applauded for that.


"affordable" ??


----------



## David - Sydney (Oct 25, 2022)

unfocused said:


> So many closed-minded commenters. This is actually a very good idea. To answer the naysayers:
> 
> Owner can decide whether or not to activate the feature in menus. Those who don't like it don't have to use it.
> Owner can set the length of time before the camera locks.
> ...


Agree with #1/#2/#4
#3 A back side sensor would be needed in the rear screen specifically for the face detection but would also need it in the EVF ie both places => higher cost. Not sure what would happen for when you are using remote triggers or for vlogging etc. Could be set for once/day to avoid these issues compared to phones that need to open lots
#5 Canon would need to know your serial number and current contact phone number. Not saying that it isn't a reasonable idea but why provide more personal data to companies when cyber breaches are way too common now. Selling second hand would be problematic especially after you sell it and then the buyer wants you to authorise the transfer to someone else... which you could potentially do for an extra fee!
#6 Free lensing, 3rd party adapters/extension tubes/bellows, reverse mounted for macro, etc would be problematic. Of course, the vast majority of usage would be fixed normally to bodies.
#7 Something like an embedded airtag is an option. I keep one in my camera bag anyway. All the radio transmitter (BT/wifi/gps etc) approvals would already be done. Is there an android version? Creating a custom Canon "find my camera" app would be clunky at best given Canon's SW prowess.


----------



## adrian_bacon (Oct 25, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> Canon can do and has done plenty that is wrong, but there is an old saying, "get the right tool for the job".
> 
> Shooting 3 hours of video with what is primarily a stills FF camera? Not a Canon problem.


I can't agree more. I always find it amusing to see "hybrid" shooters spend a pretty penny kitting out a hybrid camera for shooting video and yell and scream about so called missing video features on their camera, and complain about things like overheating, but.... when you ask them how many stills they've actually taken with that camera that they're using for video, not everybody, but, more often than not, they don't use it for anything but video. It's essentially a video camera. ??? Oh... you want a hybrid camera because it costs less than the proper video camera that's actually designed to work the way your trying to use it, but insist on having those same features and functionality on a less expensive camera that by nature of the design of the camera is going to have compromises because it has to handle multiple competing use cases with some amount of reasonableness.... kind of like the the guys that insist on having C500 performance in the form factor and price of an RP. Can't have your cake and eat it too. If you need a tool that works for shooting 3+ hours of video, then get the right tool to do that. Can't afford it? Then you're not charging enough. Can't charge that much? Then either deal with trying to deliver something on a budget, or hold the line and say it costs that much or you get nothing. The client will decide what they want to pay and if they don't want to pay, then don't do it. Surely there's enough paying work to be had that shooters can be selective. I know I'm busy enough that I absolutely am selective like that. It's just not worth the heartburn of trying to get a job done with tools that are ill fitting for the work.


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 25, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> Agree with #1/#2/#4
> #3 A back side sensor would be needed in the rear screen specifically for the face detection but would also need it in the EVF ie both places => higher cost. Not sure what would happen for when you are using remote triggers or for vlogging etc. Could be set for once/day to avoid these issues compared to phones that need to open lots
> #5 Canon would need to know your serial number and current contact phone number. Not saying that it isn't a reasonable idea but why provide more personal data to companies when cyber breaches are way too common now. Selling second hand would be problematic especially after you sell it and then the buyer wants you to authorise the transfer to someone else... which you could potentially do for an extra fee!
> #6 Free lensing, 3rd party adapters/extension tubes/bellows, reverse mounted for macro, etc would be problematic. Of course, the vast majority of usage would be fixed normally to bodies.
> #7 Something like an embedded airtag is an option. I keep one in my camera bag anyway. All the radio transmitter (BT/wifi/gps etc) approvals would already be done. Is there an android version? Creating a custom Canon "find my camera" app would be clunky at best given Canon's SW prowess.


Don't forget a remote start button on the key fob.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 25, 2022)

Ozarker said:


> Don't forget a remote start button on the key fob.


Already have one, thanks.


----------



## Refraction (Oct 25, 2022)

definedphotography said:


> Not sure why you'd use a photo-centric camera to record a long show rather than a camcorder that is designed to do such tasks.
> But, yes hopefully Canon will sort the overheating problem in the Mk II.


Canon think this way too. Each specific use case = a different camera. I was also using an R as a b cam, same settings, no issues.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 25, 2022)

Cyborx said:


> Who on earth would like to upgrade


Cameras are not only upgraded to sell to people who have the previous version.


----------



## Joel C (Oct 25, 2022)

peters said:


> This is simply not correct.
> Especialy after the last firmware the R5 can record pretty much limitless. Just last week we documented a concert with 3 R5 cameras. All set to 4kHQ (Which is pretty much the same es 8k) and run easily for 3 hours straight.
> 
> And btw, in "regular" 4k we had never any overheat problems, even before the firmware update.
> ...


Most people that would have bought and used this camera had to buy from another camera maker. That's why you do not hear and discussion about this. Overheating is a well known issue, so people don't even bother to try it. 
Last year was a perfect example use case for me. I went to Peru in the Amazon jungle for two weeks to film. The Canon R5/R6 were not even on the gear list, as space was limited and there's no way you are going to miss the assignment with a camera that has over heated in the jungle.


----------



## jj1804 (Oct 25, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> You are not crazy to think that.
> I do not think it will drop quite that low, but it would not shock me.


The R6 is currently to be had in Switzerland for CHF 1'849.- plus 300.- in Cashback making it a darn good deal, even if you had to pay shipping and income taxes on it. The R5 price hasn't moved much since its introduction but if someone has been on the fence about getting an R6 I'd guess now is a pretty good time to do that.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 25, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Cameras are not only upgraded to sell to people who have the previous version.


Exactly. An R6II would be targeted at 6-series and APS-C DSLR along with RP/R users as much as (if not more than) R6 owners. But trolls like @Cyborx love to put up silly, strawman arguments.


----------



## John Wilde (Oct 25, 2022)

SHAMwow said:


> What I don't get is why so many people purchased the camera, with its known shortcomings, and then are blaming the product. I knew everything when I bought my R5, which is why I couldn't care less about the hundreds of overheating videos in the months following launch. If the R6 didn't suit your needs, why buy it?


For video-first people, Canon now has the R5 C. It's fatter than the R5, because of the included fan.


----------



## SHAMwow (Oct 25, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> "affordable" ??


I really hope you're kidding, but I so want to hear what you're going to say. If you don't think that camera is affordable for what you are getting, then it isn't for you. But maybe this sub is just like the subreddit where people just want to play collector or gearhead, or whatever it is. You legit think this camera is too expensive? When before this camera would cost you $6k. Please explain.


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 26, 2022)

SHAMwow said:


> I really hope you're kidding, but I so want to hear what you're going to say. If you don't think that camera is affordable for what you are getting, then it isn't for you. But maybe this sub is just like the subreddit where people just want to play collector or gearhead, or whatever it is. You legit think this camera is too expensive? When before this camera would cost you $6k. Please explain.


That camera would be great value for money, but it might still not be affordable.


----------



## stevelee (Oct 26, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> That camera would be great value for money, but it might still not be affordable.


That’s like what I think about the Fujifilm GFX 100S. For $6K, it seems like a bargain to me. I would sort of like to have one, since I decided that it would be the best way for me to upgrade from my DSLR. And as for affordable, I do have enough lying around in checking accounts to get it and some lenses. But unless I suddenly make an impulse order late some night, I am not inclined to buy it. Given the uses I have for my pictures, I don’t see how the camera would really make any real difference to my photography other than being sort of fun to have. And I doubt that I would take that many more landscapes after the novelty wore off.

But there is a real issue of affordability. With that amount of resolution, I would want a much bigger printer. My travel photos with my G5X II and earlier pocketable models look great printed on 13” x 19” paper as it is, and my DSLR can do better than that. But the real expense would be for a much larger house to have enough wall space for those giant prints. So given what real estate prices are around here these days, I really can’t afford the 100S. Everything is relative.


----------



## Del Paso (Oct 26, 2022)

stevelee said:


> That’s like what I think about the Fujifilm GFX 100S. For $6K, it seems like a bargain to me. I would sort of like to have one, since I decided that it would be the best way for me to upgrade from my DSLR. And as for affordable, I do have enough lying around in checking accounts to get it and some lenses. But unless I suddenly make an impulse order late some night, I am not inclined to buy it. Given the uses I have for my pictures, I don’t see how the camera would really make any real difference to my photography other than being sort of fun to have. And I doubt that I would take that many more landscapes after the novelty wore off.
> 
> But there is a real issue of affordability. With that amount of resolution, I would want a much bigger printer. My travel photos with my G5X II and earlier pocketable models look great printed on 13” x 19” paper as it is, and my DSLR can do better than that. But the real expense would be for a much larger house to have enough wall space for those giant prints. So given what real estate prices are around here these days, I really can’t afford the 100S. Everything is relative.


Please stop mentioninig the Fuji GFX 100S.
I'm having hard times fighting my GAS.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 26, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> Please stop mentioninig the Fuji GFX 100S.
> I'm having hard times fighting my GAS.


Its pixel pitch is only 3.78 µ, and so about 15% more reach than the R5. Good for birding.


----------



## SHAMwow (Oct 26, 2022)

stevelee said:


> That’s like what I think about the Fujifilm GFX 100S. For $6K, it seems like a bargain to me. I would sort of like to have one, since I decided that it would be the best way for me to upgrade from my DSLR. And as for affordable, I do have enough lying around in checking accounts to get it and some lenses. But unless I suddenly make an impulse order late some night, I am not inclined to buy it. Given the uses I have for my pictures, I don’t see how the camera would really make any real difference to my photography other than being sort of fun to have. And I doubt that I would take that many more landscapes after the novelty wore off.
> 
> But there is a real issue of affordability. With that amount of resolution, I would want a much bigger printer. My travel photos with my G5X II and earlier pocketable models look great printed on 13” x 19” paper as it is, and my DSLR can do better than that. But the real expense would be for a much larger house to have enough wall space for those giant prints. So given what real estate prices are around here these days, I really can’t afford the 100S. Everything is relative.


See I really like your breakdown of this, I've just accepted for a while that *affordable *is a relative term rather than a set number from some arbitrary consensus. I think part of the problem I have with people calling Canon's latest offerings "too expensive" is that I think their perspective is that they should be able to own every camera, or at least have access to every feature. And I just don't feel that way. To me you either need the speed and video of the R6, or you can look at their lower full-frame/crop offerings. 

A different conversation would be the RF lenses. I think there is some more nuance to be had debating those prices and how they directly relate to the pricing of the camera bodies.


----------



## SilverBox (Oct 26, 2022)

TonyG said:


> I would assume the R1 would have to be available spring 2024 the latest in order to have them out for the Summer Olympics. Maybe by fall/winter 2023 we would be getting some reliable cr3 specs?
> I think it would also be strategic to wait until the last second before the Olympics because Canons competition is due for an A9iii and maybe an A1ii, and if they can time it to release after Sony does, then they can make sure they have features to pull ahead of Sony's latest feature list at release.
> 
> If the R6ii ends up using a variation of the R3 stacked sensor, maybe part of the R1 sensor development is a variation for the R5ii?
> ...


In a certain respect we could consider the R5c to have taken the place in the timeline that we might have expected from a mark ii. If the official R6ii announcement is this winter, with shipments in early 2023, I could see them doing one of their development announcements for the R1 in the summer of 2023. Should be interesting!


----------



## stevelee (Oct 27, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> Please stop mentioninig the Fuji GFX 100S.
> I'm having hard times fighting my GAS.


The leaves here are well on their way to be really pretty. I figure that will be the big challenge to my avoiding buying the 100S. Late some night when my inhibitions are down and I see the 20–35mm zoom in stock, I could do the few clicks needed to order. Fortunately, buying a bigger house would take more effort.

I had email from Apple yesterday that my Apple Card credit limit has been raised. Luckily, I can’t think of anything I want. They do make it easy to spend thousands of dollars with just a few clicks, and give you plenty of time to pay with no interest. A while back I decided to buy a yellow watch band and didn’t find anything cheap on line that I liked, so I ordered one from Apple. I failed to opt out of installment payments, so I’m paying $4 a month for the band.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 27, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> Please stop mentioninig the Fuji GFX 100S.


I could use some R5 S rumors


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Oct 27, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Good for birding


The GFX 100S would be about my last choice for birding


----------



## Del Paso (Oct 27, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I could use some R5 S rumors


Me too!


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 27, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> The GFX 100S would be about my last choice for birding


I think their longest focal length is 120mm? Not good for birding, that's for sure. Heck, that's equivalent to ff 70mm? I'm not sure. 120mm/1.7? 

If I were wealthy and they had a 1200mm, I'm in. Haha


----------



## stevelee (Oct 27, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> The GFX 100S would be about my last choice for birding


They don’t have a long lens, and if they did, there is a .79x crop factor on the focal length, so wrong way. People go to smaller sensors for more “reach.” I don’t chase around flying birds, and if I did I might put my tele zoom on my old Rebel. For landscapes, I tend to be slow and deliberative, maybe bracketing exposure and focus. So the 100s would be fine for that. I’d still use my DSLR for most other things, and just have wide angle lenses for the Fuji. As it is, my 16–35mm zoom is great for now. It would get much less use if I had the Fuji, I imagine.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 27, 2022)

Ozarker said:


> I think their longest focal length is 120mm? Not good for birding, that's for sure. Heck, that's equivalent to ff 70mm? I'm not sure. 120mm/1.7?
> 
> If I were wealthy and they had a 1200mm, I'm in. Haha


It's not equivalent to 72mm in terms of reach. What determines reach is focal length combined with pixel size. The pixel size size of the GFX100 is the same as that as a 24 Mpx, APS-C camera. So the reach of a 120mm on the GFX100 is equivalent to that of a ~200mm on an R3. The field of view of the lens on the GFX100 is equivalent to 0.79 x 120mm = 95mm on an R3.


----------



## stevelee (Oct 27, 2022)

Ozarker said:


> I think their longest focal length is 120mm? Not good for birding, that's for sure. Heck, that's equivalent to ff 70mm? I'm not sure. 120mm/1.7?
> 
> If I were wealthy and they had a 1200mm, I'm in. Haha


They do have a $3,300 250mm prime (<200mm eq.) and a 100–200mm zoom, but still nothing for flying birds.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 27, 2022)

stevelee said:


> They don’t have a long lens, and if they did, there is a .79x crop factor on the focal length, so wrong way. People go to smaller sensors for more “reach.” I don’t chase around flying birds, and if I did I might put my tele zoom on my old Rebel. For landscapes, I tend to be slow and deliberative, maybe bracketing exposure and focus. So the 100s would be fine for that. I’d still use my DSLR for most other things, and just have wide angle lenses for the Fuji. As it is, my 16–35mm zoom is great for now. It would get much less use if I had the Fuji, I imagine.


The crucial factor in determining the reach of a lens is not the size of the sensor but the size of the individual pixels. The crop factor of 0.79 is meaningless by itself - all it does is give you the relative field of view to 135 - see my last post.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 27, 2022)

stevelee said:


> They do have a $3,300 250mm prime (<200mm eq.) and a 100–200mm zoom, but still nothing for flying birds.


To follow my last mail, a 250mm prime on the GFX100 will give you the reach of a 400mm on an R3 and the field of view of a 200mm lens on it. That's like having a 200-400mm zoom lens with prime lens IQ at every focal length. That might be your last choice of lens for flying birds, but I could use it. Think of how easy it is to track a bird with a 200mm lens and yet have the resolution of a 400mm.


----------



## Del Paso (Oct 27, 2022)

AlanF said:


> To follow my last mail, a 250mm prime on the GFX100 will give you the reach of a 400mm on an R3 and the field of view of a 200mm lens on it. That's like having a 200-400mm zoom lens with prime lens IQ at every focal length. That might be your last choice of lens for flying birds, but I could use it. Think of how easy it is to track a bird with a 200mm lens and yet have the resolution of a 400mm.


Didn't think of that, a convincing argument.
You just "reloaded" my GAS, but not my account...


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 27, 2022)

AlanF said:


> It's not equivalent to 72mm in terms of reach. What determines reach is focal length combined with pixel size. The pixel size size of the GFX100 is the same as that as a 24 Mpx, APS-C camera. So the reach of a 120mm on the GFX100 is equivalent to that of a ~200mm on an R3. The field of view of the lens on the GFX100 is equivalent to 0.79 x 120mm = 95mm on an R3.


Well, I understand that. But I'm a laymen. I guess what I was really getting at is that Fuji has nothing really compatible with birding.


----------



## drisley (Oct 27, 2022)

I know somebody who has seen and used the R6 II (and 135 1.8) and sadly there is no top LCD. He also said the video wasn't great. I don't really know what that means, but I suspect that means a crop. I'd take the full frame (1.07 crop) of the R6 with some time restrictions (will never record more than 15 mins max at any time anyway) over a crop. This is one reason the Sony a7IV was a no go.
It's weird how the much cheaper EOS R has the same body as the R5 (metal, top LCD, bigger/higher res back LCD) and the R6 which costs more has a much cheaper body (plastic, no top LCD, smaller/ower res back LCD). Having shot Canon for 18 years, I had a top LCD on all my cameras. Not having one is really a huge loss imho.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 27, 2022)

Ozarker said:


> Well, I understand that. But I'm a laymen. I guess what I was really getting at is that Fuji has nothing really compatible with birding.


I’m a bit of a geek as well as a passionate birder.


----------



## Johnw (Oct 27, 2022)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> New information in bold





Canon Rumors Guy said:


> *RF/RF-S Lenses*



Was it really "new information" that the R6II would be an RF mount camera?


----------



## Jethro (Oct 27, 2022)

drisley said:


> I know somebody who has seen and used the R6 II (and 135 1.8) and sadly there is no top LCD. He also said the video wasn't great. I don't really know what that means, but I suspect that means a crop. I'd take the full frame (1.07 crop) of the R6 with some time restrictions (will never record more than 15 mins max at any time anyway) over a crop. This is one reason the Sony a7IV was a no go.
> It's weird how the much cheaper EOS R has the same body as the R5 (metal, top LCD, bigger/higher res back LCD) and the R6 which costs more has a much cheaper body (plastic, no top LCD, smaller/ower res back LCD). Having shot Canon for 18 years, I had a top LCD on all my cameras. Not having one is really a huge loss imho.


The R6 already has a crop in some video formats, and also has no top LCD, so it's nothing new. I sort of agree in general about the top LCD, but with the EOS R, I find myself using the info in the EVF more and more anyway. And on tripod I use the back LCD anyway. If the R6 II specs (and performance obviously) are convincing, it could be my move-up from the EOS R. I'm not really a video user though.


----------



## Del Paso (Oct 28, 2022)

drisley said:


> I know somebody who has seen and used the R6 II (and 135 1.8) and sadly there is no top LCD. He also said the video wasn't great. I don't really know what that means, but I suspect that means a crop. I'd take the full frame (1.07 crop) of the R6 with some time restrictions (will never record more than 15 mins max at any time anyway) over a crop. This is one reason the Sony a7IV was a no go.
> It's weird how the much cheaper EOS R has the same body as the R5 (metal, top LCD, bigger/higher res back LCD) and the R6 which costs more has a much cheaper body (plastic, no top LCD, smaller/ower res back LCD). Having shot Canon for 18 years, I had a top LCD on all my cameras. Not having one is really a huge loss imho.


The EOS R is a fantastic bargain for stills shooters.
It suffered from undeserved (sensor) and deserved (video) criticism, but it's worth far more than its current selling price.


----------



## drisley (Oct 29, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> The EOS R is a fantastic bargain for stills shooters.
> It suffered from undeserved (sensor) and deserved (video) criticism, but it's worth far more than its current selling price.


If you don't push/pull files too much or shoot at super high ISOs, it is still very good. The 5DIV still had much cleaner images than the R (and probably the best IQ of all Canon cameras imho), but it's AF was very unreliable.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 29, 2022)

drisley said:


> If you don't push/pull files too much or shoot at super high ISOs, it is still very good. The 5DIV still had much cleaner images than the R (and probably the best IQ of all Canon cameras imho), but it's AF was very unreliable.


The R and the 5DIV have exactly the same sensors and perform the same in tests for pushing/pulling as measured on photonstophotos.net so how does the 5DIV produce cleaner images?


----------



## Del Paso (Oct 29, 2022)

drisley said:


> If you don't push/pull files too much or shoot at super high ISOs, it is still very good. The 5DIV still had much cleaner images than the R (and probably the best IQ of all Canon cameras imho), but it's AF was very unreliable.


I use both cameras with the same lenses, never noticed what you call "much cleaner" images. Brian from TDP speaks of slightly sharper 5 D IV pictures (???), I use R and 5 D IV without spending a single thought on so called differences. If they exist, they must be really tenuous.


----------



## stevelee (Oct 30, 2022)

I see the 5D IV refurb listed <$1800 from Canon. That is tempting.


----------



## Del Paso (Oct 30, 2022)

stevelee said:


> I see the 5D IV refurb listed <$1800 from Canon. That is tempting.


Still my favourite Canon camera. Nothing beats an optical viewfinder, neither the R5's, nor the Leica SL's.
Yes, I know, mirrorless has some important advantages, but the viewfinder's "visible"quality is none of them.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Oct 30, 2022)

Cyborx said:


> Canon will never give you the top LCD on the R6 series. Why should they? They want you to feel like you have bought the second choice camera. So you keep looking at the R5 in the future. They don’t serve you, you serve them!
> You want an affordable fullframe body with 45 mpix, inbuilt battery grip, global shutter, fast eye/spot AF switch mode, etc. But they don’t care about you. They will keep producing stuff that is good for them. Not for you. The trick is: you have to keep wishing for better, so you keep buying. The time were Canon made the perfect camera is OVER. They will always leave some specs out that makes it the best camera for you. I bought 2 R6 bodies on a cashback period, so I paid 1800 a piece Tax excluded.
> I use my ‘old’ EF lenses. Just to bully them back.
> 
> ...


R6 does have quick shift between eye and spot af. It is called dual back button focus


----------



## drisley (Oct 30, 2022)

AlanF said:


> The R and the 5DIV have exactly the same sensors and perform the same in tests for pushing/pulling as measured on photonstophotos.net so how does the 5DIV produce cleaner images?


Same sensors perhaps, but most likely differences caused by the AF being on the sensor of the mirrorless system. This is common with mirrorless systems and why the mirrorless equivalents in the Nikon lineup have more noise and banding that do not exist in the DSLR counterparts.
I've owned both cams and shot thousands of images with them and there is a difference. I know Tony Northrup did comparisons of the R and 5DIV when the R was released and found exactly what I found... more noise and pattern noise in the R that wasn't there on the 5DIV.
I've had people who have never owned these cameras try to tell me otherwise based on charts. LOL
And actually, if you check DXO, the 5DIV has better dynamic range and better SNR than the R. (though none of the charts will point out the ugly pattern noise that is more of a problem than even total noise).


----------



## drisley (Oct 30, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> Still my favourite Canon camera. Nothing beats an optical viewfinder, neither the R5's, nor the Leica SL's.
> Yes, I know, mirrorless has some important advantages, but the viewfinder's "visible"quality is none of them.


The 5D IV produced the best IQ I've ever seen on a camera. SO good! But that AF is pretty unreliable, especially with 3rd party lenses and so it won't work well for me anymore. I remember going out with the 5D IV and Sigma Art 85 and doing a photoshoot for a retirement of a cop I know. In daylight... and when I got home 50% of my pics were out of focus. That same lens on mirrorless is nearly perfect. If I could get the image quality of the 5D IV with the autofocus of the new mirrorless systems I'd love it! I'd say that the 5D IV IQ in many ways is better than even the R5. Either that or I had a copy with an amazing copy of the sensor. The amount of noise at ISO 12,800 was about the same as ISO 800 on most cameras I've used (and no pattern noise, just almost film like grain).


----------



## JohnC (Oct 30, 2022)

I agree the 5d4 was at the top and is still near the top in IQ. I think the R5 is better though, at least at lower ISO landscape use.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 30, 2022)

drisley said:


> And actually, if you check DXO, the 5DIV has better dynamic range and better SNR than the R. (though none of the charts will point out the ugly pattern noise that is more of a problem than even total noise).


Actually, if you check DXO, the 5DIV and R have identical dynamic ranges and SNR (as do the measurements on photonstophotos.net). They have the same sensor, and you can use the 5DIV in liveview mode that focusses in exactly the same way as the R as a mirrorless, and I have never seen any difference in quality when doing so, apart from the more precise AF.
.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 30, 2022)

drisley said:


> The 5D IV produced the best IQ I've ever seen on a camera. SO good! But that AF is pretty unreliable, especially with 3rd party lenses and so it won't work well for me anymore. I remember going out with the 5D IV and Sigma Art 85 and doing a photoshoot for a retirement of a cop I know. In daylight... and when I got home 50% of my pics were out of focus. That same lens on mirrorless is nearly perfect. If I could get the image quality of the 5D IV with the autofocus of the new mirrorless systems I'd love it! I'd say that the 5D IV IQ in many ways is better than even the R5. Either that or I had a copy with an amazing copy of the sensor. The amount of noise at ISO 12,800 was about the same as ISO 800 on most cameras I've used (and no pattern noise, just almost film like grain).


My 5DIV was not nearly as good as my 5DSR and Nikon D850 DSLRs, or now my R5. How did you find yours in comparison with those?


----------



## Sporgon (Oct 30, 2022)

drisley said:


> The 5D IV produced the best IQ I've ever seen on a camera. SO good! But that AF is pretty unreliable, especially with 3rd party lenses and so it won't work well for me anymore. I remember going out with the 5D IV and Sigma Art 85 and doing a photoshoot for a retirement of a cop I know. In daylight... and when I got home 50% of my pics were out of focus. That same lens on mirrorless is nearly perfect.


You took your chances by using Sigma on the Canon dslr, and it didn’t work out ! But I agree with you on two things; 1, these third party lenses do work so much more reliably and so better on mirrorless, and 2, the 30mp sensor in the 5DIV is lovely. However as Alan says, the sensor in the R is identical, so you can get what you’ve wished for


----------



## Del Paso (Oct 30, 2022)

drisley said:


> The 5D IV produced the best IQ I've ever seen on a camera. SO good! But that AF is pretty unreliable, especially with 3rd party lenses and so it won't work well for me anymore. I remember going out with the 5D IV and Sigma Art 85 and doing a photoshoot for a retirement of a cop I know. In daylight... and when I got home 50% of my pics were out of focus. That same lens on mirrorless is nearly perfect. If I could get the image quality of the 5D IV with the autofocus of the new mirrorless systems I'd love it! I'd say that the 5D IV IQ in many ways is better than even the R5. Either that or I had a copy with an amazing copy of the sensor. The amount of noise at ISO 12,800 was about the same as ISO 800 on most cameras I've used (and no pattern noise, just almost film like grain).


Don't blame the EOS 5 D IV, but the Sigma. Never had any AF issues with mine, only with a Sigma 1,4/35mm which I sent back. Didn't want to "play" with Sigma's dock.
Yet, I doubt its sensor is nearly as good as the R5's...and as good at ISO 12800 as other sensors at ISO 800 ????. Sorry, but I doubt it too.


----------



## stevelee (Oct 30, 2022)

The only downside for me of the 5D IV would be the immobile screen. If I need that, I will still use the 6D2. I don’t have the autofocus issues that many of you guys have. I don’t chase flying birds. If I am shooting into the woods and the camera can’t obviously lock on which particular branch I have in mind, I will focus manually rather than fiddle with convincing the camera to find the right place. I did find that when I shot video of pick-up basketball games this summer with my G5X II, at the beginning of some shots, focus would fish around for a bit. If I ever use that camera for those videos again, I’ll focus manually on the rim on one side, and depend upon DOF of that small lens to keep everything sharp from that distance. Other than that, I don’t recall any real autofocus issues with any of my cameras.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 30, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> Yet, I doubt its sensor is nearly as good as the R5's...and as good at ISO 12800 as other sensors at ISO 800 ????. Sorry, but I doubt it too.


People see what they want to see. My R did not have pattern noise, and after using a 7D for several years, I certainly know what that looks like.


----------



## Del Paso (Oct 30, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> People see what they want to see. My R did not have pattern noise, and after using a 7D for several years, I certainly know what that looks like.


That's correct. No pattern noise, but nevertheless lots of noise at ISO 12800.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Oct 30, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Its pixel pitch is only 3.78 µ, and so about 15% more reach than the R5. Good for birding.


Love the idea of it as a dedicated birding camera. Little bulky, but she'll be right


----------



## drisley (Oct 31, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Actually, if you check DXO, the 5DIV and R have identical dynamic ranges and SNR (as do the measurements on photonstophotos.net). They have the same sensor, and you can use the 5DIV in liveview mode that focusses in exactly the same way as the R as a mirrorless, and I have never seen any difference in quality when doing so, apart from the more precise AF.
> .
> View attachment 206074
> View attachment 206075


You can throw all the charts you want at me bro but I've owned both and shot thousands of images on both. They do NOT produce the same IQ. I sold my R for this very reason. 
Go watch Tony Northrups review of the EOS R. The on sensor DPAF of the R produced more image noise and even banding not present in the 5DIV. Periodt.


----------



## drisley (Oct 31, 2022)

AlanF said:


> The R and the 5DIV have exactly the same sensors and perform the same in tests for pushing/pulling as measured on photonstophotos.net so how does the 5DIV produce cleaner images?


I've shot thousands of images with both cameras and there is a big difference if you shoot routinely at high ISOs and/or push/pull files a lot (which I do). The 5DIV even at ISO12800 needed no noise reduction (I can provide raw files) even if I wanted to pull up shadows. It was insane. The R had about 1/2 stop more noise and would produce bad magenta/green splotches and banding if the files were massaged; they were very fragile by comparison. They may have had the same sensors but the DPAF on the sensor apparently caused this issue (also did so on the Nikon mirrorless cams too vs the D850 and D750). Charts will not show this.
Tony Northrup shows this perfectly in this video.


----------



## drisley (Oct 31, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> Don't blame the EOS 5 D IV, but the Sigma. Never had any AF issues with mine, only with a Sigma 1,4/35mm which I sent back. Didn't want to "play" with Sigma's dock.
> Yet, I doubt its sensor is nearly as good as the R5's...and as good at ISO 12800 as other sensors at ISO 800 ????. Sorry, but I doubt it too.


Naw, the focus reliability on the 5D series was never great and I used the best Canon L lenses too including the 70-200 2.8 II. 
My buddy actually has ever Canon DSLR ever made and just got an R3. He did direct comparisons and the 5DIV was just as good as the R3 (with more MP too). The R3 did have some sort of weird circular banding though but to me that may have been a lens abberation (unsure why it didn't show on the 5DIV though).
The Sigmas were flawless on my R for AF though.


----------



## drisley (Oct 31, 2022)

1J9A3444.CR2


1 file sent via WeTransfer, the simplest way to send your files around the world




we.tl




There you go. 5DIV in terrible low light at ISO 12,800. It's pretty incredible if you ask me. I've yet to use a camera that matches this. I have many more in better lighting that are much better.
I could never do this with my R.


----------



## AlanF (Nov 1, 2022)

drisley said:


> You can throw all the charts you want at me bro but I've owned both and shot thousands of images on both. They do NOT produce the same IQ. I sold my R for this very reason.
> Go watch Tony Northrups review of the EOS R. The on sensor DPAF of the R produced more image noise and even banding not present in the 5DIV. Periodt.


No point in throwing charts at you? You told me to check the DxO charts on the 5DIV and the R as they showed the 5DIV was superior, and when I did I found that was not true but they were identical. Instead of apologising, you double down.


----------



## drisley (Nov 1, 2022)

AlanF said:


> No point in throwing charts at you? You told me to check the DxO charts on the 5DIV and the R as they showed the 5DIV was superior, and when I did I found that was not true but they were identical. Instead of apologising, you double down.


DXO doesn't show identical at all. The R is worse in every rating. In real world, it's even worse.


----------



## AlanF (Nov 1, 2022)

drisley said:


> DXO doesn't show identical at all. The R is worse in every rating. In real world, it's even worse.


You specifically wrote the DXO charts for dynamic range and SNR, which I then posted, and you now show a different set of charts. Why can't you simply say that you made a mistake quoting those? And it is factually incorrect that the R is worse in every rating - it is identical in some.


drisley said:


> And actually, if you check DXO, the 5DIV has better dynamic range and better SNR than the R. (though none of the charts will point out the ugly pattern noise that is more of a problem than even total noise).


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 1, 2022)

drisley said:


> DXO doesn't show identical at all. The R is worse in every rating. In real world, it's even worse.


DxO stated: "Comparing the EOS R”s ISO 2742 against the EOS 5 D Mk IV’s ISO 2995, there’s less than 0.13 EV difference in low-light ISO (Sports), just a 0.3-bit difference in color depth (Portrait) at base, and a difference of less than 0.1 EV at the base ISO of 100 in dynamic range (in other words, both cameras have effectively the same dynamic range)."

Linking TN videos is not helping your case, he has the technical comprehension of a bowling ball.

All of those differences are essentially meaningless, the sensors have effectively identical performance. If you're seeing a real-world difference, there's something else going on, e.g. your R was defective.


----------



## drisley (Nov 1, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> DxO stated: "Comparing the EOS R”s ISO 2742 against the EOS 5 D Mk IV’s ISO 2995, there’s less than 0.13 EV difference in low-light ISO (Sports), just a 0.3-bit difference in color depth (Portrait) at base, and a difference of less than 0.1 EV at the base ISO of 100 in dynamic range (in other words, both cameras have effectively the same dynamic range)."
> 
> Linking TN videos is not helping your case, he has the technical comprehension of a bowling ball.
> 
> All of those differences are essentially meaningless, the sensors have effectively identical performance. If you're seeing a real-world difference, there's something else going on, e.g. your R was defective.


 DXO shows the sensors are not identical in performance (regardless of the amount) which points to something different going on with the signal processing or something else. There should be no variation like this if they had identical sensors, identical signal processing and identical output. But again, a chart will not show things like banding and pattern noise. Real world is worse as I said I've shot thousands of images with both cameras and the R is fine in normal light, when you are not pushing/pulling files. But in lower light or when you need to recover shadows the R is significantly worse than the 5DIV. I returned the R and tried 2 more copies before I decided to keep one. They were all the same.
I normally agree that Tony is normally not somebody I admire for technical info, but what he showed in his videos mirrored my experience EXACTLY. You don't have to be a technical genius to see the photos/comparisons for yourself. At least Tony did some investigating to compare the IQ of the cameras rather than just say "it has the same sensor as the 5DIV" and call it a day like 99.9% of "influencers".
The fact is, most people do not shoot at ISO 6400 and up a lot or pull up shadows. I do. That's where I do most of my work and I pull up shadows a fair amount. I've done this for 15 years and various cams. The R has the worst "banding/pattern noise/colour shift" of any camera I used since the 1D2N. 5DIV has none of it. At all. It's an impressive camera for IQ. The R was better for AF and more fun to use but the worse IQ (vs the 5D IV) was the reason I finally sold it (and am now waiting on the R6 II). I could shoot 5DIV however I wanted and never have issue (aside from unreliable AF). But with the R I had to be VERY careful to either nail exposure or overexpose and try to recover highlights instead (not ideal for a digital sensor). The R made me very hesitant to shoot things I would never give a second thought to with the 5DIV.
I attached an image shot at ISO 100 on the EOS R, shadows slider brought up in ACR. There horizontal pattern noise is pretty bad (but it's worse in context with the full image). I have ISO12,800 shots taken with the 5DIV with shadows pulled up and there is nothing even remotely close to this going on. 
I hate when people with 0 experience try to tell me that my experience (as a 18 year pro though that is neither here nor there) isn't real or valid. I shot both cams for quite a while, thousands of images, and 3 copies of the EOS R. Pattern noise in shadows existed on the EOS R where it didn't on the 5DIV. You can show line charts all you want but that doesn't change the facts. And the fact that DXO showed that that the IQ from the sensors was not identical (even if the differences were "small") proves that there is a difference. Apparently it's from the signal processors or on sensor autofocus systems from my research.
I find most mirrorless have more of an issue with shadow banding than their DSLR counterparts. I know the newer Nikons had similar issues vs the D750 and D850 sensors. But, most people dont push their image files more than a simple colour grade in LR so they don't notice or care. I think the R3 is better than most because of the BSI stacked sensor so I'm hoping the R6 II will get the same sensor (or similar). Though funny enough, my buddy did a comparison of the 5DIV and his R3 and they were similar with noise but the R3 had some weird circular banding we couldn't explain. It COULD have been the lens (since it was circular) or corrections applied (though I didn't think they affected Raw files). But in either case, that 5DIV file held up shockingly well against the new Canon flagship mirrorless. The R just wouldn't be able to compete.
Ps. the R had another notorious "banding" issue that was eventually solved with firmware. This banding issue was something different entirely.


----------



## AlanF (Nov 1, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> DxO stated: "Comparing the EOS R”s ISO 2742 against the EOS 5 D Mk IV’s ISO 2995, there’s less than 0.13 EV difference in low-light ISO (Sports), just a 0.3-bit difference in color depth (Portrait) at base, and a difference of less than 0.1 EV at the base ISO of 100 in dynamic range (in other words, both cameras have effectively the same dynamic range)."
> 
> Linking TN videos is not helping your case, he has the technical comprehension of a bowling ball.
> 
> All of those differences are essentially meaningless, the sensors have effectively identical performance. If you're seeing a real-world difference, there's something else going on, e.g. your R was defective.


We both know that stating measurements without their associated errors makes comparisons pretty meaningless unless the differences are really obvious. I am willing to bet that the standard errors of DxO's measurements are greater than those tiny differences. I wonder what the copy variation is between cameras in terms of DR and S/N?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 1, 2022)

AlanF said:


> We both know that stating measurements without their associated errors makes comparisons pretty meaningless unless the differences are really obvious. I am willing to bet that the standard errors of DxO's measurements are greater than those tiny differences. I wonder what the copy variation is between cameras in terms of DR and S/N?


IIRC, DxO at some point in the past indicated a ±1/3 EV error in their measurements (I can't find that statement on their site anymore). So yes, all the differences between the measurements for the 5DIV and R3 are within the error and not differences at all.


----------



## stevelee (Nov 1, 2022)

Night before last I decided to give some serious thought to ordering the refurbed 5D IV. So I went on line to look at some reviews from the last couple of years, not 5 or 6 years ago. There were even comparisons with the R6 and even the 6D2. Yes, it is a fine camera and a bargain for $1,800, and it is the only logical DSLR upgrade for me. But I decided not to get it, at least just yet. I won't bore you with details unless someone has a specific question. (And none of the charts and graphs were real factors.) 

Yesterday morning I went out to shoot Halloween decorations in our neighborhood, as requested by our newsletter editor. The 6D2 worked great using just auto settings. (The exception was a 5-shot HDR in which I wanted details both out in the yard and shaded on the front porch. It was probably an unnecessary precaution. But, hey, the camera did five clicks and Photoshop did all the work, so why not?) And I thought, why am I considering replacing this camera?

Supposedly dynamic range is the Achilles heel of the camera. When I asked here how I could demonstrate that, it was suggested that I try underexposing a black cat by 4 or 5 stops.

I went to the end of the street where the neighbors agreed on a pirate motif for Halloween. I saw some folks adding an octopus to the roof of their porch, and a black cat crawled out the window and walked around it. I tried several shots, but just used auto everything. The cat was not greatly underexposed, but still there is not a lot of detail in the fur. Maybe the 5D IV would do better, but I don't photograph a cat and an octopus on the roof together often enough to affect my buying decisions. The JPEG I'm posting will show even less fur detail.


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 12, 2022)

drisley said:


> If you don't push/pull files too much or shoot at super high ISOs, it is still very good. The 5DIV still had much cleaner images than the R (and probably the best IQ of all Canon cameras imho), but it's AF was very unreliable.



I wouldn't say the 5D Mark IV autofocus was "very unreliable." I find it very reliable. It just takes more skill to use in a way that lets it know what you want it to focus on. If you correctly tell it where to focus, it is very reliable in my experience.


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 12, 2022)

drisley said:


> Same sensors perhaps, but most likely differences caused by the AF being on the sensor of the mirrorless system. This is common with mirrorless systems and why the mirrorless equivalents in the Nikon lineup have more noise and banding that do not exist in the DSLR counterparts.
> I've owned both cams and shot thousands of images with them and there is a difference. I know Tony Northrup did comparisons of the R and 5DIV when the R was released and found exactly what I found... more noise and pattern noise in the R that wasn't there on the 5DIV.
> I've had people who have never owned these cameras try to tell me otherwise based on charts. LOL
> And actually, if you check DXO, the 5DIV has better dynamic range and better SNR than the R. (though none of the charts will point out the ugly pattern noise that is more of a problem than even total noise).



You do realize the 5D Mark IV has main sensor based Dual Pixel AF so that it can AF in Live View, don't you?

There may be differences in each camera's respective JPEG processing engine, but there's no detectable differences between the raw output of each.


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 12, 2022)

drisley said:


> The 5D IV produced the best IQ I've ever seen on a camera. SO good! But that AF is pretty unreliable, especially with 3rd party lenses and so it won't work well for me anymore. I remember going out with the 5D IV and Sigma Art 85 and doing a photoshoot for a retirement of a cop I know. In daylight... and when I got home 50% of my pics were out of focus. That same lens on mirrorless is nearly perfect. If I could get the image quality of the 5D IV with the autofocus of the new mirrorless systems I'd love it! I'd say that the 5D IV IQ in many ways is better than even the R5. Either that or I had a copy with an amazing copy of the sensor. The amount of noise at ISO 12,800 was about the same as ISO 800 on most cameras I've used (and no pattern noise, just almost film like grain).



That's not unreliability on the part of the camera, that's unreliability on the part of the third party lens! By the way, how do you find the EOS R AF works with third party RF lenses?


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 12, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Linking TN videos is not helping your case, he has the technical comprehension of a bowling ball.



I think that good ole' Tony understands more than he demonstrates in his videos. But he'd rather stir the pot, sensationalize, and get clicks by telling people what they want to hear than present unbiased, correct information. There's no money in the latter.

You've got to be pretty smart to consistently pretend to be dumb in the exact way that will maximize your YouTube income. It's a little like how brilliant Lucille Ball had to be in order to portray someone so dumb in such a funny and likeable way all of the time.


----------



## usern4cr (Nov 17, 2022)

Cyborx said:


> You can assign a button to do eye AF when in spot AF temporarely, but switching is not possible. It stays in spot AF mode.


i can hit a button for eye af or another for spot af and go back and forth just fine on my R5.


----------

