# The Canon EOS R3 will be $5999 USD



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 11, 2021)

> The euro pricing for the Canon EOS R3 leaked earlier today, now we know that the Canon EOS R3 will retail for $5999 USD at launch. It was reported earlier that the EOS R3 would have a launch price of €6099 in most of Europe.
> This price is $500 more than I predicted, but it still comes under the $6000 that I reported many months ago. Some may balk at the price, but I don’t think that anyone should be surprised.
> The Canon EOS R3 will be announced on September 14, 2021 at 6AM ET.



Continue reading...


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## AccipiterQ (Sep 11, 2021)

That's......a lot of money for a non-flagship camera that doesn't appear to be better than the R3 R5 in many areas....


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## EOS 4 Life (Sep 11, 2021)




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## fisherman (Sep 11, 2021)

Oooof-da... !!


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2021)

A couple hundred dollars cheaper than I originally predicted. Works for me.

Guess I’ll be getting up early on Tuesday.


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## john1970 (Sep 11, 2021)

A bit more expensive than I anticipated. I was really hoping for $5500, but honestly the extra $500 does not make that much of a difference. However, it does cause one to ask the question: What will the R1 cost? I am guessing $7999.... Wow!

I am also a bit surprised that the USD and Euro price are so close.


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## Aussie shooter (Sep 11, 2021)

Sweet. I'll buy two. Oh...hang on. No i won't. Unless? Anyone want to give me 12k?


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## FrenchFry (Sep 11, 2021)

john1970 said:


> I am also a bit surprised that the USD and Euro price are so close.



Indeed, this is a fairly big departure from all other recent pricing...
Perhaps the euro or dollar price was not final when scooped up by Nokishita. Nokishita mentioned that the euro price was "not exact" due to ongoing edits, so who knows how the final prices will shake out.


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## FrenchFry (Sep 11, 2021)

Aussie shooter said:


> Sweet. I'll buy two. Oh...hang on. No i won't. Unless? Anyone want to give me 12k?


I think you'll need a lot more in Australia! Might as well ask for $20k to be on the safe side.


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## FrenchFry (Sep 11, 2021)

We have a narrow 4-day opportunity to collectively erupt in outrage and pressure Canon to reduce the price before launch.


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## john1970 (Sep 11, 2021)

Also forgot to mention, thank you for posting the announcement time on Tuesday as 6 am. I will place my preorder at that time. I am also curious on when Canon expects availability. Hoping for late October.


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## Aussie shooter (Sep 11, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> I think you'll need a lot more in Australia! Might as well ask for $20k to be on the safe side.


True. I was referring to USD but you are correct for over here. We generally double the price here. So it will likely be 12k per unit. My wife would sell my bollocks if i did that


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## addola (Sep 11, 2021)

If it's $5999, what would the price of the rumored R1 be? The Sony A1 costs $500 more ($6500) but comes with a 50 MP stacked & back-illuminated sensor.


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## Aussie shooter (Sep 11, 2021)

addola said:


> If it's $5999, what would the price of the rumored R1 be? The Sony A1 costs $500 more ($6500) but comes with a 50 MP stacked & back-illuminated sensor.


R3 is a stacked BSI and will be a much better camera ergonomically so that cancells out the 50mp depending on ones use case. The R1 is likely going to be the one camera to rule them all and will be priced accordingly.


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## John Wilde (Sep 11, 2021)

Yes, that's the USA price that Nokishita tweeted.

One way of looking at it is that it's $500 cheaper than the IDX Mark III.


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## BakaBokeh (Sep 11, 2021)

Okay, how much for the body only without the kit lens?


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## navastronia (Sep 11, 2021)

They really should have called this the R1.

Why not? Modest bump in resolution over the 1DXIII, same ergonomics, same weather sealing. They could even come up with some marketing reason to excuse the mismatched card slots.

At the end of the day, it's too expensive to not be the flagship


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## JustUs7 (Sep 11, 2021)

Aussie shooter said:


> True. I was referring to USD but you are correct for over here. We generally double the price here. So it will likely be 12k per unit. My wife would sell my bollocks if i did that


If I’m reading your Aussie slang right, I’ve got five kids already. Might be worth it!


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## Kiton (Sep 11, 2021)

So about 8 million Canadian. 

$7,500 cdn approx, same as the 1d X 2, the mk 3 was much more.
Hummmm
24 mp
Hummmm
I may hold and wait until the flagship is announced and see where the price sits then.
This crap ain't cheap!


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## ek94 (Sep 11, 2021)

When exactly will retailers have the camera available for preorder? Is it once the "announcement" event concludes, or at the start? was a day late on the R5 and suffered the consequences..


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## bellorusso (Sep 11, 2021)

I wouldn't be able to afford it even for $4000. But logically, $6000+taxes - way too much. Obviously, Canon is aiming at agencies only. Photographers who pay for their own equipment won't be very happy to spend that much.


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## FrenchFry (Sep 11, 2021)

bellorusso said:


> I wouldn't be able to afford it even for $4000. But logically, $6000+taxes - way too much. Obviously, Canon is aiming at agencies only. Photographers who pay for their own equipment won't be very happy to spend that much.


I think the largest market will be well off enthusiasts who won't miss the $6k.


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## john1970 (Sep 11, 2021)

ek94 said:


> When exactly will retailers have the camera available for preorder? Is it once the "announcement" event concludes, or at the start? was a day late on the R5 and suffered the consequences..


I would expect when the announcement starts at 6 am EST on Tuesday Sept 14.


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## FrenchFry (Sep 11, 2021)

I can't help but feel like the "squarely between" comment was misleading, if this pricing is accurate. 

Performance "category" "squarely between" the R5 and 1DXiii, but pricing just about on par with the 1DXiii?

"The Canon EOS R3 will join the current lineup of EOS R full-frame mirrorless series cameras. This camera will usher in a new category to the EOS R system, positioned *squarely between* the EOS R5 and EOS-1D X Mark III cameras."

Canon Announces That The Powerful Professional Full-Frame EOS R3 Mirrorless Camera Is On Its Way​MELVILLE, NY, April 14, 2021– Canon U.S.A. Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, today announced that its parent company, Canon Inc., is developing a




www.canonrumors.com


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## dwarven (Sep 11, 2021)

navastronia said:


> They really should have called this the R1.
> 
> Why not? Modest bump in resolution over the 1DXIII, same ergonomics, same weather sealing. They could even come up with some marketing reason to excuse the mismatched card slots.
> 
> At the end of the day, it's too expensive to not be the flagship



Someone pointed out way back when this camera was first posted here that it probably was the R1 originally, but they saw the Sony a1 out-spec'd it so they changed the name.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2021)

dwarven said:


> Someone pointed out way back when this camera was first posted here that it probably was the R1 originally, but they saw the Sony a1 out-spec'd it so they changed the name.


And others pointed out that with the way businesses operate, Canon knew the a1 specs long ago.


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## DrToast (Sep 11, 2021)

dwarven said:


> Someone pointed out way back when this camera was first posted here that it probably was the R1 originally, but they saw the Sony a1 out-spec'd it so they changed the name.



That makes a lot of sense to me. But then they went ahead and priced it so close to the A1. And as others have mentioned, what will the R1 cost?! Very strange.


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## RayValdez360 (Sep 11, 2021)

I doubt this was the R1. Seeing how the R5 was probably "made" in like 2019 with all those crazy specs. Covid or something probably delayed everything. R1 probably would have been ready this year with the R3. Just like how the R5 and R6 came out close to each other. No dual CFE slots is the biggest giveaway body wise.


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## john1970 (Sep 11, 2021)

Aussie shooter said:


> R3 is a stacked BSI and will be a much better camera ergonomically so that cancells out the 50mp depending on ones use case. The R1 is likely going to be the one camera to rule them all and will be priced accordingly.


You make a great observation that higher MP is not an advantage for all photographers depending on the application. I do miss the integrated grip and 1-series ergonomics on the R5 and it is a primary reason I am adding a R3 to my camera bag.


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## Jethro (Sep 11, 2021)

As an 'enthusiast' who clearly can't justify buying one of these, I'm just fascinated to see details of the new features, which will filter down over the next few years into newer bodies that I might actually buy.


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## Dragon (Sep 11, 2021)

navastronia said:


> They really should have called this the R1.
> 
> Why not? Modest bump in resolution over the 1DXIII, same ergonomics, same weather sealing. They could even come up with some marketing reason to excuse the mismatched card slots.
> 
> At the end of the day, it's too expensive to not be the flagship


To all those kvetching about price, the value of the dollar is dropping like a rock and if Canon doesn't forward price, they will either have to raise the price shortly down the road (which is damn hard) or take a bath on the currency exchange. Be prepared for this strategy from all the camera manufacturers.


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## Toglife_Anthony (Sep 11, 2021)

Quite the sticker price for a non-flagship camera. ;-) In all seriousness, I'm surprised it clocked that high. The $5200ish range made sense, $5999 is steep. And yes, an additional $5-700 on an over $5K purchase is somewhat negligible, but that's still a steep price. Can't wait to sit on the proverbial sidelines and watch the deep pockets test this thing out. I'll stick with my more than adequate R5.


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## Toglife_Anthony (Sep 11, 2021)

Dragon said:


> To all those kvetching about price, the value of the dollar is dropping like a rock and if Canon doesn't forward price, they will either have to raise the price shortly down the road (which is damn hard) or take a bath on the currency exchange. Be prepared for this strategy from all the camera manufacturers.


Can they not price them differently in different markets?


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## HotPixels (Sep 11, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> And others pointed out that with the way businesses operate, Canon knew the a1 specs long ago.





dwarven said:


> Someone pointed out way back when this camera was first posted here that it probably was the R1 originally, but they saw the Sony a1 out-spec'd it so they changed the name.


This camera was always meant to be the R3. There's the eye control AF which goes back to the EOS 3. There's the mixed card slots...the top flagship will most likely use 2 CFExpress B cards. I would bet the flagship will have dual processors.

But if anyone understands how these large companies operate and their project management, you realize that such a name change at the last minute to react to Sony is simply not possible. Those who suggest this name change theory act as if such a change is trivial. In reality it is anything but. 

Consider some of the ramifications of such a name change. You have to change all internal communications, and communications with outside partners, from manufacturing to sales. You have to alter product documentation, like manuals, and marketing materials. You also have to retool the assembly line to place that R3 badge on the camera. That in itself is hardly trivial.

But perhaps the biggest dominos to fall would be that you would have to change your entire product segmentation strategy and your future development plans. All of a sudden you send marketing and engineering into a big scramble. You now have to develop an R1 which you were not counting on, and find the resources and time to do so. Of course that would also take resources away from the products you already had planned, and so your release timetable is altered. In short, everything is altered by that seemingly small little name change.

That name change theory may seem convenient to some, but it doesn't reflect an understanding of what it takes to bring these products to the market.


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## slclick (Sep 11, 2021)

"Sorry son, I can't go halfsies on your first car like we agreed, the R3 is begging me to adopt it."


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## HotPixels (Sep 11, 2021)

Dragon said:


> To all those kvetching about price, the value of the dollar is dropping like a rock and if Canon doesn't forward price, they will either have to raise the price shortly down the road (which is damn hard) or take a bath on the currency exchange. Be prepared for this strategy from all the camera manufacturers.


The value of the dollar is not dropping like a rock. One year ago the dollar was worth 106.16 yen. Now it's worth 109.93 yen. So actually the dollar has gone up against the yen. 

If we go back one month, the dollar was worth 110.38 yen and today it is 109.93. A slight drop but hardly dropping like a rock...just normal fluctuations. In the last day the dollar went up, from 109.78 to 109.93.

So in reality the dollar vs yen has been remarkably stable, with overall the dollar gaining a bit against the yen.

So I don't know where the idea comes from about the dollar "dropping like a rock." That is contradicted by facts.


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## DrToast (Sep 11, 2021)

Dragon said:


> To all those kvetching about price, the value of the dollar is dropping like a rock and if Canon doesn't forward price, they will either have to raise the price shortly down the road (which is damn hard) or take a bath on the currency exchange. Be prepared for this strategy from all the camera manufacturers.






Here's the dollar/yen chart for the last 5 years. Where is the dollar dropping like a rock?


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## Skux (Sep 11, 2021)

I thought they would charge flagship prices since this the R1 in all but name, so this is a small pleasant surprise. At this price there's no real need to consider the 1DX3 when the R3 looks even more capable.

Not that I'd ever buy or need a camera like this lol


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## Kiton (Sep 11, 2021)

ek94 said:


> When exactly will retailers have the camera available for preorder? Is it once the "announcement" event concludes, or at the start? was a day late on the R5 and suffered the consequences..


One of the great things about always dealing with and having a relationship with a small shop, in my case, Camtecphoto in Montreal, I called weeks before the R5 and asked they add my name to the list when the time comes. Done! I got the camera the first day. You just can't do that with huge retailers anymore.


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## HotPixels (Sep 11, 2021)

DrToast said:


> View attachment 200128
> 
> 
> Here's the dollar/yen chart for the last 5 years. Where is the dollar dropping like a rock?


People on these forums, and in general online, just make stuff up based on their biases, feelings, and some strange assumptions. We have this case where someone asserted that the dollar was dropping like a rock, when it's very easy to verify that it is not in fact dropping like a rock.

We have some saying that Canon must have changed the name of what was going to be the R1 to the R3 at the last minute, after they saw the A1, when in fact that's a practical impossibility given the functioning of these companies and their product development.

It's like all who have said that Canon is surely going to fail, when in fact they have held steady leadership in the camera market for years now.


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## Toglife_Anthony (Sep 11, 2021)

HotPixels said:


> This camera was always meant to be the R3. There's the eye control AF which goes back to the EOS 3. There's the mixed card slots...the top flagship will most likely use 2 CFExpress B cards. I would bet the flagship will have dual processors.
> 
> But if anyone understands how these large companies operate and their project management, you realize that such a name change at the last minute to react to Sony is simply not possible. Those who suggest this name change theory act as if such a change is trivial. In reality it is anything but.
> 
> ...


This is funny to me because it reminds me when I had to "explain" to a business partner why we couldn't give them what they were asking for, and we would "fluff" the complexity or cost so they couldn't push back. I'm sure it would take some work to change the name but I don't think it's as drastic as you're making it out to be. Retooling to make R3 badges instead of R1 badges wouldn't be earth-shattering work or effort. We can agree to disagree though. ;-)

Side note, marketing and engineering departments are sent into a big scramble ALL the time with most companies, especially big ones.


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## Toglife_Anthony (Sep 11, 2021)

HotPixels said:


> People on these forums, and in general online, just make stuff up based on their biases, feelings, and some strange assumptions. We have this case where someone asserted that the dollar was dropping like a rock, when it's very easy to verify that it is not in fact dropping like a rock.
> 
> We have some saying that Canon must have changed the name of what was going to be the R1 to the R3 at the last minute, after they saw the A1, when in fact that's a practical impossibility given the functioning of these companies and their product development.
> 
> It's like all who have said that Canon is surely going to fail, when in fact they have held steady leadership in the camera market for years now.


I'm not at all saying Canon changed the name, but why are folks acting like changing the name means developing an entirely new product? Literally changing the name but keeping the product exactly as you've designed and developed it would likely be the easiest change to make to the camera.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2021)

DrToast said:


> Here's the dollar/yen chart for the last 5 years. Where is the dollar dropping like a rock?


Isn’t it amusing when people bring their fallacious opinions to a data-driven discussion?

At the same time, it’s sad that people make themselves look foolish by posting nonsense that is so easily refuted by facts.


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## sanj (Sep 11, 2021)

I think this is a good price in today's market, or at least it matches my prediction.


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## sanj (Sep 11, 2021)

People saying that this was supposed to be R1, are talking rubbish, fabricated tales.


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## exige24 (Sep 11, 2021)

For $500 more you can have an actual flagship camera. Ouch. Bad move, Canon.


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## Jethro (Sep 11, 2021)

exige24 said:


> For $500 more you can have an actual flagship camera. Ouch. Bad move, Canon.


Yes, they may actually be [email protected]@med ...


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## sanj (Sep 11, 2021)

Simple point: Canon is not forcing anyone to buy this. And those who want to buy this will not mind this price.


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## sanj (Sep 11, 2021)

exige24 said:


> For $500 more you can have an actual flagship camera. Ouch. Bad move, Canon.


You, and all of us, are free to buy the camera we want. Please buy the flagship for $500 more. Be happy!


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## DBounce (Sep 11, 2021)

Idk, for this price I’ll agree it should be a flagship. It makes me wonder how much more we can expect the R1 to bring? Also the R5C is to be announced at the end of the year. What will that camera offer? At $5,500 the R3 was seemingly priced on the higher side (for a Canon), but still not flagship money. However, now it sits deeply in flagship territory pricing wise. I’ll wait until the final announcement and to see some images from the camera before committing to anything.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2021)

DBounce said:


> However, now it sits deeply in flagship territory pricing wise.


Well, that can be solved either by making the R3 less expensive or by making the next camera they call their flagship (i.e., the R1) substantially more expensive. I think I can guess which Canon will choose.


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## Chig (Sep 11, 2021)

ek94 said:


> When exactly will retailers have the camera available for preorder? Is it once the "announcement" event concludes, or at the start? was a day late on the R5 and suffered the consequences..


We can preorder it already from at least one retailer in New Zealand https://www.rubbermonkey.co.nz/Canon-EOS-R3-Mirrorless-Digital-Camera


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## Chig (Sep 11, 2021)

DrToast said:


> That makes a lot of sense to me. But then they went ahead and priced it so close to the A1. And as others have mentioned, what will the R1 cost?! Very strange.


Well I think Sony heavily over priced their prosumer "Flagship" Alpha 1


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## sanj (Sep 11, 2021)

DBounce said:


> Idk, for this price I’ll agree it should be a flagship. It makes me wonder how much more we can expect the R1 to bring? Also the R5C is to be announced at the end of the year. What will that camera offer? At $5,500 the R3 was seemingly priced on the higher side (for a Canon), but still not flagship money. However, now it sits deeply in flagship territory pricing wise. I’ll wait until the final announcement and to see some images from the camera before committing to anything.


You want to see images to gauge if you want to buy this camera? Spoiler: You will not be able to distinguish images made by R3 and ten years old 5d3.


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## sanj (Sep 11, 2021)

This obsession with 'flagship' is weird. Flagship does not mean the camera is 'best', as best is for the photographer's wants. If a photographer wants high MPX, then R3 is not 'best' but R5 is. If the photographer wants, speed R3 is 'best'.


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## Chig (Sep 11, 2021)

DBounce said:


> Idk, for this price I’ll agree it should be a flagship. It makes me wonder how much more we can expect the R1 to bring? Also the R5C is to be announced at the end of the year. What will that camera offer? At $5,500 the R3 was seemingly priced on the higher side (for a Canon), but still not flagship money. However, now it sits deeply in flagship territory pricing wise. I’ll wait until the final announcement and to see some images from the camera before committing to anything.


I think it is likely that the R1 will be launched in 2024 leading up to the Paris Olympics and that Canon planned this well before 2020 with their typical Flagship release schedule .
The R3 was also planned many years ago and many of it's features and form factor will be used in the R1 
The R3 is a highend Prosumer camera which will double as a testbed for the R1.
The R3's rumoured pricing seems appropriate for what appears to be a very amazing camera.

The R1 will be even more amazing but I doubt it will be priced much higher , perhaps $7000-7500?

Both cameras will be strong sellers I suspect and it's no accident Canon is so dominant in the camera industry.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2021)

ek94 said:


> When exactly will retailers have the camera available for preorder? Is it once the "announcement" event concludes, or at the start? was a day late on the R5 and suffered the consequences..


Probably depends on the specific retailer. I'd suggest trying at the start time of the announcement (6 am EST).

Do keep in mind that if you plan to order from B&H, there are multiple holidays closings this month.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2021)

sanj said:


> This obsession with 'flagship' is weird. Flagship does not mean the camera is 'best', as best is for the photographer's wants. If a photographer wants high MPX, then R3 is not 'best' but R5 is. If the photographer wants, speed R3 is 'best'.


The flagship is the best,


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## Tirmite (Sep 11, 2021)

I wish it was cheaper, but $6000 isn't a stretch. It offers more than the 1Dx II and III and those were introduced at $6500 USD. It's one hell of a camera based on specs and compared to its DSLR siblings. The 1Dx Mark II's are now $4500 which is a bargain for a truly pro level camera. Wouldn't be surprises if the Mark III's drop in price as the holiday shopping season approaches. And since the R3 does everything the 1Dx's did and THEN some this means the R1 will be a monster of a camera! Canon will flex their muscles and show off a bit I'm sure. These were the worst of times (COVID) and the best of times (CANON mirrorless). : ) So many cool toys; so little disposable income. : (


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## MoonMadness (Sep 11, 2021)

I never planned to purchased this camera. 
So I won't complain about it like so many others have, who never planned to purchase it.
I'll wait for an M50 replacement (M50ii doesn't count) before considering filing a complaint on the price.
I may be waiting forever?
Over and out.


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## sanj (Sep 11, 2021)

bellorusso said:


> I wouldn't be able to afford it even for $4000. But logically, $6000+taxes - way too much. Obviously, Canon is aiming at agencies only. Photographers who pay for their own equipment won't be very happy to spend that much.


Most photographers do not NEED this camera. Fact.


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 11, 2021)

All I really wanted is really an R6 in a large and heavy 1D X Mark III form factor and at least one non-SD memory card, as I hate SD cards. The R6 with the battery grip that does not really align well looks very ugly. At the moment I do not really see many advantages of the R3 over the R6. At least not any that would justify a €3,600 higher price. 

If I am not mistaken, the R5 already was by far the most expensive non-flagship camera so far by Canon. In the DSLR world the most expensive not flagship model (5D Mark IV) was about €4,000 when it came out. Now over €6,000 for a non-flaship camera. Many will pay that price, bit it is quite a shocking rise.


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## slclick (Sep 11, 2021)

exige24 said:


> For $500 more you can have an actual flagship camera. Ouch. Bad move, Canon.


flagship in name but to me I hear choice in functionality (not to mention colors) Canon>Sony for skintones


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## KT (Sep 11, 2021)

AccipiterQ said:


> That's......a lot of money for a non-flagship camera that doesn't appear to be better than the R3 in many areas....


So the R3 isn't better than the R3 in many areas? Good to know


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## ausserirdischesind (Sep 11, 2021)

To me the interesting part is if Canon moves upward in prices across the board, or makes high end bodies a lot more expensive while making e.g. an entry level R300/Kiss RF/Rebel RF for €800 with imtentionally reduced feature set to keep "average guys" in the Canon camp, that is not increased prices across the board, but larger price differential. A €9999 R1 does not necessarily have to make a R300 more expensive.


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## Viggo (Sep 11, 2021)

So, like I said yesterday, no where near €6099, it is €6099 plus tax, landing at €7299, and just below the1dx3, not just above the R5.

this will push the R1 to be literally TWICE what the 1dx2 cost at launch.


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## jam05 (Sep 11, 2021)

john1970 said:


> Also forgot to mention, thank you for posting the announcement time on Tuesday as 6 am. I will place my preorder at that time. I am also curious on when


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## imagesandbirds.com (Sep 11, 2021)

Everyone: 24 mpx is not enough.
Also everyone: Posting their images on Instagram only.


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## Sporgon (Sep 11, 2021)

DrToast said:


> View attachment 200128
> 
> 
> Here's the dollar/yen chart for the last 5 years. Where is the dollar dropping like a rock?


Pumice Stone maybe ?


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## jam05 (Sep 11, 2021)

Flagship camera price for a 24mp non flagship device thats merely a backup to the R5? At least the Sony A1 was released at 50mp even with EVF blackouts. The R5 is fast enough to do what is needed for sporting events. Jeff Cable proved that in Tokyo.


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## adrian_bacon (Sep 11, 2021)

Toglife_Anthony said:


> I'm not at all saying Canon changed the name, but why are folks acting like changing the name means developing an entirely new product? Literally changing the name but keeping the product exactly as you've designed and developed it would likely be the easiest change to make to the camera.


Because it does mean developing an all new product. That all new product would be the R1. Personally, I doubt the R3 was ever the R1 internally at Canon. Stuff like the eye tracking is not just something you pull off the shelf and dust off to put into a camera a month or so after your competition releases a camera that is better than yours. At a minimum, they had to have known about the A1 specs months before it was announced to pull off a rebadging like that. And to say the planned R1 was going to have that all along? I don’t buy that for a second. Canon has never put eye tracking in a flagship.

what is more likely, is Canon will do something similar to what they’ve done with the R5 and R6. The R1 is a high megapixel beast and the R3 is basically the same thing, but with a lower MP sensor and a few feature tweaks.

i have the R5 and R6 (both with grips) and they’re basically a perfect pairing. the R5 is the main body, the R6 the backup, unless you don‘t want/need high MP on a given shoot, then the R6 is the main body and the R5 is the backup. It’s great. I can totally see the same strategy with the R1 and R3.


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## jam05 (Sep 11, 2021)

adrian_bacon said:


> Because it does mean developing an all new product. That all new product would be the R1. Personally, I doubt the R3 was ever the R1 internally at Canon. Stuff like the eye tracking is not just something you pull off the shelf and dust off to put into a camera a month or so after your competition releases a camera that is better than yours. At a minimum, they had to have known about the A1 specs months before it was announced to pull off a rebadging like that. And to say the planned R1 was going to have that all along? I don’t buy that for a second. Canon has never put eye tracking in a flagship.
> 
> what is more likely, is Canon will do something similar to what they’ve done with the R5 and R6. The R1 is a high megapixel beast and the R3 is basically the same thing, but with a lower MP sensor and a few feature tweaks.
> 
> i have the R5 and R6 (both with grips) and they’re basically a perfect pairing. the R5 is the main body, the R6 the backup, unless you don‘t want/need high MP on a given shoot, then the R6 is the main body and the R5 is the backup. It’s great. I can totally see the same strategy with the R1 and R3.


One exception. The release times. The R1 has to be released at nearly the same time to pull off the marketing strategy. At this moments there is no high megapixel beast. The R3 should have been released nearly at the same time. Maybe the R1 is near release. If it doesnt have at least the R5s 45mp, it too will be overpriced.


----------



## adrian_bacon (Sep 11, 2021)

jam05 said:


> One exception. The release times. The R1 has to be released at nearly the same time to pull off the marketing strategy. At this moments there is no high megapixel beast. The R3 should have been released nearly at the same time. Maybe the R1 is near release. If it doesnt have at least the R5s 45mp, it too will be overpriced.


I don’t disagree at all. They very well may have been planning to release both either at the same time or in relatively close succession, but covid hosed up a bunch of stuff. Just look at what happened with the R5 and R6. I had my R6 in my hands and was shooting it ages before I got my R5, even though I ordered my R5 way ahead of my R6.


----------



## Hobby (Sep 11, 2021)

MoonMadness said:


> I never planned to purchased this camera.
> So I won't complain about it like so many others have, who never planned to purchase it.
> I'll wait for an M50 replacement (M50ii doesn't count) before considering filing a complaint on the price.
> I may be waiting forever?
> Over and out.


And not a camera for me. But I like reading about the specs and the capabilities. Impressive! One day this new technology (eg better autofocus) could ripple down to lower end camera's. I'll wait and will upgrade my M100 to an M50ii. (Similarity: 24MP ) M50ii counts for me: an EVF and improved autofocus. I will have fun with that one, and the Sigma's 30/56 f/1.4.My photographic capabilities are not that high: M50ii is high end for me; fun and a nice family or travel picture counts.


----------



## xps (Sep 11, 2021)

So, the rumor from Cameraegg (B&H leak) in spring seems to have been right.

"I found an old posting ("https://www.cameraegg.org/canon-eos-r3-to-cost-5999-listed-at-bh/"), which is quite old.
But maybe it is the correct price, that one of the biggest US sellers accidentically announced back in spring."

Quite heavy pricing, but like with Apple, there are enough hardcore followers. I do not say, this body is not worth the money, the new ergonomics, shutter, fps e.g. is innovative. But other companies do implement other innovative technologies like 51 MP in an premium body. So every user has to decide if this body fits to his needs - as many writers mentioned before.

Maybe, the mentioned strategy R3-R1 is like R6 & R5 - the R3 for fast sprts, a little bit slower 45MP body like the Sony A1 for photographer that need more MP. For lets say 8500€ here in Germany. (The A1 I bought month ago was 7299€). And it will be sold like hell....


----------



## fentiger (Sep 11, 2021)

Aussie shooter said:


> True. I was referring to USD but you are correct for over here. We generally double the price here. So it will likely be 12k per unit. My wife would sell my bollocks if i did that


But you would be living in the out house, so you won’t need yer bollocks any more


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## Chig (Sep 11, 2021)

jam05 said:


> Flagship camera price for a 24mp non flagship device thats merely a backup to the R5? At least the Sony A1 was released at 50mp even with EVF blackouts. The R5 is fast enough to do what is needed for sporting events. Jeff Cable proved that in Tokyo.


Jeff Cable mostly used the R3 in Toyko , only used the R5 a little bit from what he said in his blog


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## swkitt (Sep 11, 2021)

I'll buy one when it has the double of pixels to allow some proper crop mode.


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## swkitt (Sep 11, 2021)

exige24 said:


> For $500 more you can have an actual flagship camera. Ouch. Bad move, Canon.


For the price of a good Audi, you can have a flagship Skoda.


----------



## Hector1970 (Sep 11, 2021)

HotPixels said:


> People on these forums, and in general online, just make stuff up based on their biases, feelings, and some strange assumptions. We have this case where someone asserted that the dollar was dropping like a rock, when it's very easy to verify that it is not in fact dropping like a rock.
> 
> We have some saying that Canon must have changed the name of what was going to be the R1 to the R3 at the last minute, after they saw the A1, when in fact that's a practical impossibility given the functioning of these companies and their product development.
> 
> It's like all who have said that Canon is surely going to fail, when in fact they have held steady leadership in the camera market for years now.


While I agree with you on this the Yen it would taken Cannot no effort to switch the name from R1 to R3. Find “1” replace with “3”


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## ncvarsity3 (Sep 11, 2021)

I'm surprised that anyone's surprised by this price. Canon just raised the price of some of their RF L series lenses and those were already around $300, give or take a $100, more than their EF counter parts. It seems like a cool camera but it's overkill for a large majority of the photographers that are talking about it.


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## Joules (Sep 11, 2021)

Hector1970 said:


> While I agree with you on this the Yen it would taken Cannot no effort to switch the name from R1 to R3. Find “1” replace with “3”


But what would be the point?

Suppose it is true that Canon aimed to release the R1 in 2021 and called it R3 at a late stage in development. In that case, what will be called the R1? Likely the successor to this camera, right? And that has to be a full development life cycle away, so multiple years.

So Canon would have created a new line, giving people who are buying it the impression that they'll get a mark II version with similar characteristics in 3 to 5 years. And they gave people who won't buy it the impression that the R1 will be coming in the near future - which can't be true if the R1 is what would originally have been called the R1 II. You can't accelerate development of a professional product that has to be fully fleshed out and reliable by that much.

So the name change would lead to Canon eventually disappointing both those who believe the R3 to be the start of a new line, and those who are holding off to buy the R1 once it comes around. In other words, they reduced the number of short to medium term R3 buyers, and set themselves up to screw over the current buyers in the long term. For what benefit? I don't see how changing the name makes any sense.

Also, why is the price lower than the 1DX III? Even if they could have changed the name in response to the A1, could they also have shaved off what is likely over 1000 bucks of the cost? After all, with the other RF equipment launching at higher prices than their EF counterparts, they surely would not have aimed at undercutting the 1DX III price point from the start if the R3 was to be there absolute top end camera.


----------



## canonmike (Sep 11, 2021)

In comparison, the R3's price reinforces my opinion that my R6, purchased at $2300 during a CPW promo, was a real bargain. I'm not implying that it is anywhere near as capable as what the R3 will be, however, it takes wonderful photos, great video and doesn't break the bank. I will watch the official announcement specs before ordering but it may just make more sense to pick up a refurb R5 body, now offered at around $3500, which would give me TWO very capable bodies to play with and still come in less than one R3. I'll make that decision after I see the R3 specs on Tues., as well as the much anticipated, hidden in the wings, YT hands on use videos that are sure to follow later the same day, which are sure to enlighten us as to just how capable the R3 actually is. While not surprised at the $6k pricing, before I punch that R3 pre-order button, I need to see if there is enough bling to piss away that much money on what, for me, is just another toy to play with.


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## GMCPhotographics (Sep 11, 2021)

I can see a lot of doctors, IT professionals, surgeons, lawyers etc buying this camera. Not a lot of photographers...it's a great camera for the uber-wealthy.


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## degos (Sep 11, 2021)

addola said:


> If it's $5999, what would the price of the rumored R1 be? The Sony A1 costs $500 more ($6500) but comes with a 50 MP stacked & back-illuminated sensor.



The 1D Mark IV was $4999 at release compared with the 1Ds III at $7950. Which would suggest the R1 at about $9000 if they have the same marketing distinction...


----------



## djack41 (Sep 11, 2021)

I would be all in but for the 24 MP sensor. It is a deal killer.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Sep 11, 2021)

addola said:


> If it's $5999, what would the price of the rumored R1 be? The Sony A1 costs $500 more ($6500) but comes with a 50 MP stacked & back-illuminated sensor.



The Sony A1 could have 100Mp. It’s still not in the same league as the 1-series and single digit Nikon’s. Compare apples to apples, we have a Z9 coming up and that’s the one for Canon to deliver a R1 against of for the R3 to show it can handle the same extremes as the 1Dx3, D6 and Z9.


----------



## Chig (Sep 11, 2021)

GMCPhotographics said:


> I can see a lot of doctors, IT professionals, surgeons, lawyers etc buying this camera. Not a lot of photographers...it's a great camera for the uber-wealthy.


You're getting mixed up with Leicas I think


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Sep 11, 2021)

djack41 said:


> I would be all in but for the 24 MP sensor. It is a deal killer.



Did 20 MP stop you buying a 1dx3? Or were you always going to buy a 5dIV and R5 type body?

24MP and even 6MP hasn’t stopped me making A2 or even A1 sized prints. And even bigger than that you don’t necessarily need more pixels.


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## dboris (Sep 11, 2021)

GMCPhotographics said:


> I can see a lot of doctors, IT professionals, surgeons, lawyers etc buying this camera. Not a lot of photographers...it's a great camera for the uber-wealthy.


Saved up 3 years to buy a good "raw shooting hybrid camera", with video making just as an hobby.
But I value the travel video I make more than a few thousand dollars.
My salary is barely above the minimum salary in France.
Lmao.
I can't see how working photographers can't afford to pay their tools when they get my monthly salary in a few days of shooting.


----------



## john1970 (Sep 11, 2021)

Can someone explain to me why only 24 MP is a deal breaker? 24MP is enough pixels for 16x20 print at native resolution and with modern upsampling software one can readily see someone printing significantly larger. Typically I rarely print my photos, but when I do they are typically 8x10 because that is what readily fits in a normal photo album that uses letter size paper.


----------



## Berowne (Sep 11, 2021)

I am quite happy with my R6, sold nearly all of my old gear and now waiting for the RF 100mm Macro. Those who ever used a 1Dx I-III Body would surely agree, that the pixel count dont matter. It is the sheer quality of the files, which came out of such a camera.


----------



## InchMetric (Sep 11, 2021)

GMCPhotographics said:


> I can see a lot of doctors, IT professionals, surgeons, lawyers etc buying this camera. Not a lot of photographers...it's a great camera for the uber-wealthy.


It game me a chuckle to see all those groups described as “Uber wealthy”. I think the “Uber” threshold is when you don’t use Uber, fly private, and are indifferent to the cost of camera gear.
For me this would be a buy if it had the pixels of the R5. Not even tempting as is. But look forward to this new technology in a higher MP camera when the time comes, if not too big and heavy.


----------



## sanj (Sep 11, 2021)

dboris said:


> Saved up 3 years to buy a good "raw shooting hybrid camera", with video making just as an hobby.
> But I value the travel video I make more than a few thousand dollars.
> My salary is barely above the minimum salary in France.
> Lmao.
> I can't see how working photographers can't afford to pay their tools when they get my monthly salary in a few days of shooting.


Very very few working photographers need this camera. A working photographer has overheads. They need to invest in lights, support, etc. etc. Of course, there are some photographers that can benefit from this camera. You can continue LMAO all you want. When a working photographer calculates return on investment (which you do not), the situation changes.


----------



## mpmark (Sep 11, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> I think you'll need a lot more in Australia! Might as well ask for $20k to be on the safe side.


You do know different countries have different valued currencies right? He asking for 12k US.


----------



## Billybob (Sep 11, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> I think the largest market will be well off enthusiasts who won't miss the $6k.


Well, I could--I don't consider myself well off, but I have $7k sitting in an account allocated towards photography--but the R3 doesn't push enough buttons. I love the ergonomics, the weight, the stacked sensor, but I really don't want to purchase a sub-30MP camera again. But most importantly, I am not excited by Canon's current ultra-telephoto-lens offerings. Just offering warmed-over EF offerings doesn't thrill me. By contrast, the rumored Nikon 400mm with built-in 1.4TC seems like the perfect birding lens. 2.8 when the light is really dim, and almost 600mm when you need reach all with a simple flip of a switch! So, I'm going to seat on my stash for a touch longer and wait for the Nikon announcements.


----------



## tron (Sep 11, 2021)

John Wilde said:


> Yes, that's the USA price that Nokishita tweeted.
> 
> One way of looking at it is that it's $500 cheaper than the IDX Mark III.


That's hardly squarely between R5 and 1DxIII


----------



## lethiferous (Sep 11, 2021)

A1 and R5 owner here. I will pick one of these up but the pricing is exactly what I predicted. Unless it's got the AF of the gods with my eye (interesting to see if it works with my glasses) I will simply resell it I play around with it. I get that price hikes are a thing in a chip shortage but 6k is seriously lol. I will reserve judgement until I have the camera, but I do not buy the speed argument of 24rmp and mixed slots, when similar price points (for sure now) doesn't have either of those compromises. The body shape is also not an argument for price. I've had a idx before it's way too huge. I don't get the folks who want to carry the world largest camera when they don't have to. R3 size looks good but I am not opposed to a well sealed body with a battery pack. So far my R5 and A1 both with battery packs have been in the rain etc never had an issue, and I have the flexibility to make the body smaller when I am walking around.


----------



## DBounce (Sep 11, 2021)

GMCPhotographics said:


> I can see a lot of doctors, IT professionals, surgeons, lawyers etc buying this camera. Not a lot of photographers...it's a great camera for the uber-wealthy.


Funny you mention this, as it rumored that Leica will release the long anticipated M11 on November 11th. Granted, very different in many ways, but at the end of the day they both take pictures. While I fully expect the Leica to come in around $9k… I think the Leica is the more affordable option over time. Why? 

• Many Leica owners believe you should pick a single lens and then shoot with that lens alone.

• The desire to upgrade is not as strong with a Leica. It’s the type of camera people keep a lifetime.

• Leica cameras, particularly limited edition models often appreciate in value.


----------



## USMarineCorpsVet (Sep 11, 2021)

Billybob said:


> Well, I could--I don't consider myself well off, but I have $7k sitting in an account allocated towards photography--but the R3 doesn't push enough buttons. I love the ergonomics, the weight, the stacked sensor, but I really don't want to purchase a sub-30MP camera again. But most importantly, I am not excited by Canon's current ultra-telephoto-lens offerings. Just offering warmed-over EF offerings doesn't thrill me. By contrast, the rumored Nikon 400mm with built-in 1.4TC seems like the perfect birding lens. 2.8 when the light is really dim, and almost 600mm when you need reach all with a simple flip of a switch! So, I'm going to seat on my stash for a touch longer and wait for the Nikon announcements.


Give the RF mount some time. There should be some better offerings going forward for super telephoto lenses. They need a product to compare to the Nikon 500pf. Something smaller and with that same IQ and price point. The EF 400 f4 DO II is an underrated lens but it's still bigger and has less focal length than the Nikon 500pf. Canon would be doing themselves a disservice if they didn't try to trailblaze in that area. Of course we are limited by the laws of physics also...


----------



## futzy (Sep 11, 2021)

AccipiterQ said:


> That's......a lot of money for a non-flagship camera that doesn't appear to be better than the R3 in many areas....


Naaah it’s pretty much totally the same as R3. Not better in any way


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2021)

imagesandbirds.com said:


> Everyone: 24 mpx is not enough.
> Also everyone: Posting their images on Instagram only.


Because that’s all that users of the 1D X III and it’s predecessors do, post on Instagram, right?

SMH at the cluelessness of some people.


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## st jack photography (Sep 11, 2021)

This is the part where I predictably get mad, swear off Canon, and just sell my Sony and Canon gear, buy a Ricoh gr3, and call it good. I ca't afford this stuff any more, hah. The quality is superb, but my wallet can't handle it.


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## AEWest (Sep 11, 2021)

There has obviously been world wide supply chain issues leading to higher costs that Canon is taking into account in its pricing.
Below is one example of a company raising prices across the board for its products. Don't expect many good deals this Black Friday!








Sonos raises prices for majority of products amid supply chain crunch


The price changes go into effect September 12th.




www.theverge.com


----------



## Don Miguel (Sep 11, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


It doesn't matter *what* the price is or *when* it's released . . . . because there aren't any lenses on the shelf to put on it *!*


----------



## Toglife_Anthony (Sep 11, 2021)

adrian_bacon said:


> Because it does mean developing an all new product. That all new product would be the R1. Personally, I doubt the R3 was ever the R1 internally at Canon. Stuff like the eye tracking is not just something you pull off the shelf and dust off to put into a camera a month or so after your competition releases a camera that is better than yours. At a minimum, they had to have known about the A1 specs months before it was announced to pull off a rebadging like that. And to say the planned R1 was going to have that all along? I don’t buy that for a second. Canon has never put eye tracking in a flagship.
> 
> what is more likely, is Canon will do something similar to what they’ve done with the R5 and R6. The R1 is a high megapixel beast and the R3 is basically the same thing, but with a lower MP sensor and a few feature tweaks.
> 
> i have the R5 and R6 (both with grips) and they’re basically a perfect pairing. the R5 is the main body, the R6 the backup, unless you don‘t want/need high MP on a given shoot, then the R6 is the main body and the R5 is the backup. It’s great. I can totally see the same strategy with the R1 and R3.


That is irrelevant to my point.

If the R3 was meant to be the R1 but they changed the name, they still have to develop an R1.
If the R3 was meant to be the R3 and they didn't change the name, they still have to develop an R1.
Either way, they still have to develop an R1.

So again, changing the name would likely be the least amount of effort if they kept the internals exactly as developed and designed. But help me understand why the R3 couldn't possibly have been intended as the R1 because "Canon has never put eye tracking in a flagship"? So Canon can never be innovative with their flagship camera?

But let me be clear - I'm NOT saying the R3 was meant to be the R1, I just don't understand why folks are acting like it's an impossible theory. People are so adamant in calling people foolish for thinking it was meant to be the R1, when none of us have any more credence over the other with our opinion on the matter.


----------



## navastronia (Sep 11, 2021)

ncvarsity3 said:


> I'm surprised that anyone's surprised by this price. Canon just raised the price of some of their RF L series lenses and those were already around $300, give or take a $100, more than their EF counter parts.



No, I was also surprised they raised the price on lenses. It gives a poor impression even when it's necessary.


----------



## John Wilde (Sep 11, 2021)

"We still consider the EOS-1D X Mark III to be our flagship professional camera due to its extreme reliability and confidence it delivers in the hands of professionals. However, it is true that the EOS R3 exceeds the EOS-1D X Mark III in some specifications, to the extent which, by the conventional definition, you could consider it a flagship camera."

- Go Tokura, Chief Executive, Image Communication Business Operations at Canon (interview on DPR website.)

So it is, and isn't a flagship camera.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2021)

John Wilde said:


> "We still consider the EOS-1D X Mark III to be our flagship professional camera due to its extreme reliability and confidence it delivers in the hands of professionals. However, it is true that the EOS R3 exceeds the EOS-1D X Mark III in some specifications, to the extent which, by the conventional definition, you could consider it a flagship camera."
> 
> - Go Tokura, Chief Executive, Image Communication Business Operations at Canon (interview on DPR website.)
> 
> So it is, and isn't a flagship camera.


He went on to say,

“While the RF system is a major evolution of the EF system, we believe that in order to bestow an RF camera with the “1” model designation, we must achieve an even greater level of performance, and we continue to work towards reaching those high standards.”

So the 1D X III is the flagship, and there’s a new flagship coming.

But he did give people license think the R3 is a flagship, if they want.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Sep 11, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> He went on to say,
> 
> “While the RF system is a major evolution of the EF system, we believe that in order to bestow an RF camera with the “1” model designation, we must achieve an even greater level of performance, and we continue to work towards reaching those high standards.”
> 
> ...



I suspect the R1 will come with the Digic X2 processor. These current bodies are all still running on 'last years' tech. Of note, it would be a dreadful time to make a new processor, while the tech is there to make something faster you would need to fight Apple, Nvidia, AMD, and soon Intel for those 5nm wafers.


----------



## BBarn (Sep 11, 2021)

Price seems right based on 6099 euros. 6099 - 20% vat = 5083 euros. 
5083 euros X 1.18 euros to $US = $5997.

But it doesn't really matter to me since I've never had any interest in the camera.


----------



## SF2000 (Sep 11, 2021)

Aussie shooter said:


> R3 is a stacked BSI and will be a much better camera ergonomically so that cancells out the 50mp depending on ones use case. The R1 is likely going to be the one camera to rule them all and will be priced accordingly.


Well, I don't think you can say that hypothetical(although I'd tend to agree) better ergonomics cancels the 50mp versus the rumoured 30megapixels of the R3. There's a lot to be said for a smaller body too. Additionally, the R1 doesn't exist yet, so I think it's a bit premature to make assumptions when nothing is known about it.


----------



## djack41 (Sep 11, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> Did 20 MP stop you buying a 1dx3? Or were you always going to buy a 5dIV and R5 type body?
> 
> 24MP and even 6MP hasn’t stopped me making A2 or even A1 sized prints. And even bigger than that you don’t necessarily need more pixels.


I enjoy wildlife photography. My trusty 1DX2 now stays behind. The R5 is my go to camera. The ability to crop and retain detail is a big advantage of high MP files. Canon has to keep pace. A 24 MP sensor in a new $6000.00 camera is a hard sell. JMHO


----------



## tcphoto (Sep 11, 2021)

Come on POWERBALL! Daddy wants to fill his prescription for GAS!


----------



## BuffaloBird (Sep 11, 2021)

Aussie shooter said:


> R3 is a stacked BSI and will be a much better camera ergonomically so that cancells out the 50mp depending on ones use case. The R1 is likely going to be the one camera to rule them all and will be priced accordingly.


Um, absolutely not. Ergonomics do not cancel out MP. I will never shoot Sony, but still. I will never buy a 24MP camera, either.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Sep 11, 2021)

djack41 said:


> I enjoy wildlife photography. My trusty 1DX2 now stays behind. The R5 is my go to camera. The ability to crop and retain detail is a big advantage of high MP files. Canon has to keep pace. A 24 MP sensor in a new $6000.00 camera is a hard sell. JMHO



I use a Nikon Z6 for wildlife and it has 24 MP. I have never needed to crop and when I get a 45MP body that is just more details on the subject. Canon is doing exactly what was expected. From the 1Dx to the 1Dx3 they asked pros what resolution was wanted and there was always pushback from anything greater than 20MP. Nikon had the same issue with the D5 and D6. The only reason Nikon can get away with it with the Z9 is that they still have a D6 and they have way fewer photographers in stadiums demanding images race over ethernet to an editing station. 

That the R5 is now better for you is great, but wasn't a D850 or 5DIV not better than the 1DX2? 
Once you use a blackout free EVF and can have 30 FPS on the subject, isn't that going to get you more shots to pick than the R5? 

I personally am disappointed the Nikon Z9 is going 45MP as I would rather 24MP. The R3 is looking more attractive but it'll depend on Nikon getting solid AF and/or who gets out something like a 180-400/500mm f/4.0 first.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Sep 11, 2021)

BuffaloBird said:


> Um, absolutely not. Ergonomics do not cancel out MP. I will never shoot Sony, but still. I will never buy a 24MP camera, either.



So you never bought a 1Dx 1/2/3? It has been the case for years that the lower tier camera is high MP lower FPS and the top tier camera has lower MP but is better in every single other way including low light AF performance. If you need 45MP then the R5 is there, if you need a more professional camera that you can take up to the artic with you then the R3 is coming but you might want to bring a couple 1Dx3 with you too.


----------



## Dragon (Sep 11, 2021)

Toglife_Anthony said:


> Can they not price them differently in different markets?


Inflation is pretty much a worldwide problem, so prices will go up everywhere.


----------



## Talys (Sep 11, 2021)

navastronia said:


> No, I was also surprised they raised the price on lenses. It gives a poor impression even when it's necessary.


I'm not... they're perpetually out of stock. If raising them slightly helps keep them slightly longer on the shelves, it's only profit to canon and the camera stores (since they can't restock them quickly enough).

I waited _months_ for my 28-70... even given the hefty price, I'm pretty sure I would have been happier if I didn't have to wait and paid 10% more.


----------



## Dragon (Sep 11, 2021)

DrToast said:


> View attachment 200128
> 
> 
> Here's the dollar/yen chart for the last 5 years. Where is the dollar dropping like a rock?


Sorry, I speaking to value, not currency exchange. Inflation is affecting almost all currencies. By "dropping like a rock" I meant relative to what you can buy with a dollar. Anyone who has been shopping lately and can't see the change is, to put it politely, not very observant.


----------



## Dragon (Sep 11, 2021)

DrToast said:


> View attachment 200128
> 
> 
> Here's the dollar/yen chart for the last 5 years. Where is the dollar dropping like a rock?


All the chart means is that the yen is losing value as fast as the dollar. Have you been to the store lately? Everything is smaller and more expensive at the same time.


----------



## Talys (Sep 11, 2021)

Dragon said:


> Sorry, I speaking to value, not currency exchange. Inflation is affecting almost all currencies. By "dropping like a rock" I meant relative to what you can buy with a dollar. Anyone who has been shopping lately and can't see the change is, to put it politely, not very observant.


It's actually been very region-dependent. For example, France and Finland have had very little inflation, when compared to Germany and the United States. China and Greece have had negligible inflation.





__





Inflation 2021, international inflation figures from 2021


Inflation 2021, compare international inflation figures from 2021




www.global-rates.com





I live in Canada, and certainly, we have felt it here in _some _goods. It's very supply chain dependent.


----------



## Dragon (Sep 11, 2021)

Talys said:


> It's actually been very region-dependent. For example, France and Finland have had very little inflation, when compared to Germany and the United States. China and Greece have had negligible inflation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And in the last year and half, the dollar is down roughly 10% against both the the Euro and the Yuan. Those are the ones that count. I might add that the cpi has a lot of flaws, like using only rent rates to determine housing costs. That is not a useful measure during a period when rents are being controlled by the govt.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2021)

Dragon said:


> And in the last year and half, the dollar is down roughly 10% against both the the Euro and the Yuan. Those are the ones that count.


In the present context of a Japanese company pricing goods for sale in the US? No.


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## navastronia (Sep 11, 2021)

Talys said:


> I'm not... they're perpetually out of stock. If raising them slightly helps keep them slightly longer on the shelves, it's only profit to canon and the camera stores (since they can't restock them quickly enough).
> 
> I waited _months_ for my 28-70... even given the hefty price, I'm pretty sure I would have been happier if I didn't have to wait and paid 10% more.



Oh, I understand the economics behind supply and demand. I just don't want to pay more for the same product.


----------



## Dragon (Sep 11, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> In the present context of a Japanese company pricing goods for sale in the US? No.


Sorry, the background was the rumored Euro price, and a very large part of any camera is made in China, so those two measure are very important.


----------



## HotPixels (Sep 11, 2021)

Toglife_Anthony said:


> That is irrelevant to my point.
> 
> If the R3 was meant to be the R1 but they changed the name, they still have to develop an R1.
> If the R3 was meant to be the R3 and they didn't change the name, they still have to develop an R1.
> ...


If the R3 was meant to be the R3 then they already had started development of the R1 and had developed a product segmentation strategy. They had also built their development and release schedule for the R1 in the context of their plans for other models and lenses.

If the R3 was meant to be the R1 but the renamed it the R3 presumably after seeing the A1, then they have to start development of an R1 when none was planned, juggle all of their resources, including human resources, materials, manufacturing, marketing, etc, decide on a new product segmentation strategy, and then decide how all of this impacts their other planned releases. 

So that is a huge difference. Imagine the product planning meetings, the marketing meetings, the engineering meetings, the manufacturing resources and logistics meetings, etc. 

It is totally naive to believe that such a name change is trivial. To believe that shows no understanding of what it takes to plan and develop and bring to the market these very sophisticated technology products.

A well run company cannot function that way.


----------



## Nemorino (Sep 11, 2021)

The main advantage of the R3 will be the focus system. If you can select and focus as fast as Canon promises this camera will sell well; very well!
Canon Germany says it "would feel like the camera is reading your mind"


> Hast du schon einmal eine Kamera benutzt, die so fortschrittlich ist, dass es sich anfühlt, als würde sie deine Gedanken lesen?Mit unserer einzigartigen Eye-Control-Autofokus-Technologie fokussiert die EOS R3 dort, wohin deine Augen blicken. Diese unvergleichliche Steuerung des Autofokus ermöglicht es der Kamera, so schnell zu reagieren wie du selbst es tust – eine unbezahlbare Fähigkeit bei dynamischen Szenen.


canon.de

We shouldn't judge if the price is to high before we see the real performance.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 11, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> In the present context of a Japanese company pricing goods for sale in the US? No.


Absolutely. Why is that some people think that a product is priced solely on the cost of parts and assembly in the country of origin? It's as though marketing, shipping, packaging, sales, service centers, research, development and the thousand other things that represent a company's costs are free. Canon USA employees are not paid in Yen. Do Rudy Winston and the Canon Explorers of Light get paid in Yen? Do the shipping companies that deliver Canon products around the world do it for free? I could go on and on, but the fact is that people would be surprised at how little the actual cost of manufacturing has to do with the in-country cost of any product, especially when dealing with a multinational corporation like Canon. It makes as much sense as weighing a camera and calculating it's price based on the raw materials.


----------



## gavinz (Sep 11, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Bit higher than I thought. However it is a specialized camera so whoever needs it will get it anyways. I was thinking of getting it instead of the R5 but still have not decided yet.


----------



## EricN (Sep 11, 2021)

Nemorino said:


> We shouldn't judge if the price is to high before we see the real performance.


It's sad you needed to say this, but it is an internet forum...


----------



## lawny13 (Sep 11, 2021)

navastronia said:


> They really should have called this the R1.
> 
> Why not? Modest bump in resolution over the 1DXIII, same ergonomics, same weather sealing. They could even come up with some marketing reason to excuse the mismatched card slots.
> 
> At the end of the day, it's too expensive to not be the flagship


Why??

The fact that they didn’t means than the R1 will be superior to this camera. Just cause it seems to be on par or better than Sony’s A1 (MP wars adie) doesn’t mean that canon should make it their flagship, especially if they have a better cam in the works.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 11, 2021)

Joules said:


> But what would be the point?
> 
> Suppose it is true that Canon aimed to release the R1 in 2021 and called it R3 at a late stage in development. In that case, what will be called the R1? Likely the successor to this camera, right? And that has to be a full development life cycle away, so multiple years.
> 
> ...


You are correct.

Adding a few thoughts. 

I am willing to entertain the possibility that the R3 might be a one and done model. That's not to buy into the silliness of a name change, but rather suggesting that Canon might be planning to fold the R1 into the regular 1 series replacement cycle, placing an R1 in the mix in 2024. But, they may have recognized that they needed an interim model to compete. So, they may have developed the R3 as a placeholder that can serve the market until they are confident that the technology has advanced to the point where a mirrorless offering can carry the 1 series label without damaging the carefully developed branding. 

It's possible that in 2024 they merge the 1D and R3 into a single mirrorless R1 line, just as they did with the 1Dx. 

Arguments for this, in my opinion, would be that the R3 does not seem to have held back on anything except dual CFexpress slots. I continue to wonder what an R1 might offer if released in the near term and don't see a lot to differentiate it from the R3. But, if Canon continues to develop the technology, by 2024, an R1 could be loaded with awesome features. If a 2024 R1 is priced $1,000 more than a 2021 R3, I don't think most R3 users would be that upset if a Mark II never materialized. 

Other possibility, the R1 will be released in late 2022 early 2023 with a 45mp or higher mp sensor, dual CFexpress slots and a few other tweaks. Basically, the relationship between the R1 and the R3 would be similar to that between the R6 and R5, with a similar price differential. In this case, the R1 moves to a primarily enthusiast camera for consumers with high disposable income and the R3 serves working pros in photojournalism and sports. The market formerly met by the 1D series. I can make some good arguments for this as well, especially since I'm not sure the shrinking professional market can really sustain the 1 series, while the high disposable income enthusiast market certainly can.


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## JamesG25 (Sep 11, 2021)

While the $5999 price tag is a little higher than I thought it does make sense. An R5 with a LAN grip and an additional battery comes out at $4999. So a $1000 difference between a equivalently gripped R5 and an R3 makes sense when you consider the full pro body, weather sealing, BSI stacked sensor with 30fps and eye control autofocus. I also imagine with the general chip shortage the build cost has escalated since 2020 when 1DX MK3 and R5 launched. Based on an R3 at $5999, think we will see the R1 somewhere in range of $7499 to $7999.


----------



## dirtyvu (Sep 11, 2021)

Dragon said:


> To all those kvetching about price, the value of the dollar is dropping like a rock and if Canon doesn't forward price, they will either have to raise the price shortly down the road (which is damn hard) or take a bath on the currency exchange. Be prepared for this strategy from all the camera manufacturers.



It's not the value of the dollar causing the increasing prices. The entire supply chain is affected. The raw elements are really expensive now. The chip manufacturers are already passing their expenses on due to higher cost of raw materials. TSMC will be passing on a 20% increase. As a result, Apple and others will be raising prices. I'm curious what Microsoft and Sony will do. As soon as their current batches run out (as dictated by how much quantity they negotiated in their contracts), they will have to either eat the cost by maintaining their MSRPs on Xboxes and PS5s or raise them.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2021)

unfocused said:


> In this case, the R1 moves to a primarily enthusiast camera for consumers with high disposable income and the R3 serves working pros in photojournalism and sports. The market formerly met by the 1D series. I can make some good arguments for this as well, especially since I'm not sure the shrinking professional market can really sustain the 1 series, while the high disposable income enthusiast market certainly can.


I agree with most of your argument, but I’m not sure about Canon wanting their ‘second-string’ R3 representing them on the sidelines of major events once the R1 is their flagship.


----------



## navastronia (Sep 11, 2021)

lawny13 said:


> Why??
> 
> The fact that they didn’t means than the R1 will be superior to this camera. Just cause it seems to be on par or better than Sony’s A1 (MP wars adie) doesn’t mean that canon should make it their flagship, especially if they have a better cam in the works.



Of course the R1 will be better. What I'm saying is that the R3 is too _expensive_ not to be the flagship.

My argument in the post you quoted is that because of the ergonomics, weather sealing, and more, it's close enough to a flagship body that I think they should have just released it as the R1. I know it's a semi-facetious argument because the actual R1 will have a fast mechanical shutter, matching card slots, and other things, but this body is like 80% of the way to a flagship model -- the price, however, is 95% of one


----------



## unfocused (Sep 11, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I agree with most of your argument, but I’m not sure about Canon wanting their ‘second-string’ R3 representing them on the sidelines of major events once the R1 is their flagship.


A valid point. The R1 could remain the top sports shooter camera while the R3 might be targeted at people like me who have to buy their own equipment. 

In that case though would the R1 need a more conservative resolution, say 30 mp?

On the other hand, it might be a good argument for a one-off R3, with the 1D remaining the top sidelines camera for another year or two.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2021)

unfocused said:


> A valid point. The R1 could remain the top sports shooter camera while the R3 might be targeted at people like me who have to buy their own equipment.
> 
> In that case though would the R1 need a more conservative resolution, say 30 mp?
> 
> On the other hand, it might be a good argument for a one-off R3, with the 1D remaining the top sidelines camera for another year or two.


You suggested that Canon recognized they’d need an interim MILC model to bridge the temporal gap and release the R1 on the recent cycle of 1-series updates, i.e., around 2024. I think that’s very likely. So the R3 will meet the needs of 1-series shooters who want to use a MILC for whatever reason – faster frame rate, using the new RF lenses like the 28-70/2, etc.

The R1 then ‘replaces’ both the 1D X III and R3. I do think that means the R1 keeps a moderate resolution, 24-30 MP.

As I often say, Canon has the data on who uses what bodies where…but it would seem logical to keep the lighter, less rugged R5-series as the higher resolution bodies. Studios aren’t war zones, and wedding photographers aren’t likely to be bowled over by a linebacker and need to get up and keep shooting.

I think those on this forum predicting the R1 will be a high-MP body are hoping for wish fulfillment (whether or not they’d actually buy one). 

It’s possible Canon will go high MP with the R1, in which case I’d expect it in a year or so. In that case, they’d be reversing course on combining the 1D and 1Ds lines. But the 1D X was basically the 1D IV with a FF sensor, and the high MP torch was passed to the 5-series. They kept the 1D X II and III at 20 MP and released a 45 MP R5, suggesting the course they set with 1- and 5-series DSLRs will carry through to MILCs.


----------



## john1970 (Sep 11, 2021)

navastronia said:


> Of course the R1 will be better. What I'm saying is that the R3 is too _expensive_ not to be the flagship.
> 
> My argument in the post you quoted is that because of the ergonomics, weather sealing, and more, it's close enough to a flagship body that I think they should have just released it as the R1. I know it's a semi-facetious argument because the actual R1 will have a fast mechanical shutter, matching card slots, and other things, but this body is like 80% of the way to a flagship model -- the price, however, is 95% of one


I really agree with your last sentence of your post. The R3 is 80% of the way to a flagship model at 95% of the cost...


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## canonmike (Sep 11, 2021)

navastronia said:


> No, I was also surprised they raised the price on lenses. It gives a poor impression even when it's necessary.


I think we were all surprised by the lens price increase, as many of us felt Canon had already priced most of their L lenses at the upper range of what one would expect. On the other hand, we don't really know the current cost of R&D, materials, chips, marketing, transportation, etc., involved in the mfg of camera gear right now. We also don't have the privilege of inside information as to what Canon's profit margins on R/RF eqpt. are either. In the absence of the aforementioned, I will temper my criticism(s).


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## Chig (Sep 11, 2021)

Nemorino said:


> The main advantage of the R3 will be the focus system. If you can select and focus as fast as Canon promises this camera will sell well; very well!
> Canon Germany says it "would feel like the camera is reading your mind"
> 
> canon.de
> ...


That's what Ken Rockwell said in his review of the eos 3 SLR with the original "eye controlled AF"




__





Canon EOS 3 Review






www.kenrockwell.com




I have a later model eos 30v with the same system (although with less AF points) and I found that it worked pretty well if I used a large Hoodman eyecup which meant my eye was in a consistent position. 
Not sure if the R3 has a replaceable eyecup though. The other R cameras don't appear to have this sadly.
I also set it up with back button focus so I could use it to focus on what I wanted and then as soon as I stopped pressing the assigned button it stayed focused on that object and I had a second back button set up for normal focusing.
I suspect Canon's new version will be much better and I'd love to try it out.

Imagine on the R3 with dual back button focus :

one button for eye controlled focus
the other button for eye tracking of birds say.
One feature that I'd _really_ like for Canon to offer would be to be able to reassign the half press / full press shutter button so that if you use back button focus you could assign the half press position for single shots and full press for bursts. I would love to be able to click away single shots and then if anything exciting happens I could just blast away at the maximum burst fps.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 11, 2021)

BuffaloBird said:


> Um, absolutely not. Ergonomics do not cancel out MP. I will never shoot Sony, but still. I will never buy a 24MP camera, either.


You may notice i said 'depending on use case. So yes. For some people ergonomics trump.mega pickles. You are not the only photographer on the planet you know


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## Toglife_Anthony (Sep 11, 2021)

HotPixels said:


> If the R3 was meant to be the R3 then they already had started development of the R1 and had developed a product segmentation strategy. They had also built their development and release schedule for the R1 in the context of their plans for other models and lenses.
> 
> If the R3 was meant to be the R1 but the renamed it the R3 presumably after seeing the A1, then they have to start development of an R1 when none was planned, juggle all of their resources, including human resources, materials, manufacturing, marketing, etc, decide on a new product segmentation strategy, and then decide how all of this impacts their other planned releases.
> 
> ...


All I said was that folks are acting as if it's an _impossible _theory, NOT that it doesn't require effort. Having worked in project management for well over a decade I fully understand the life cycle of things and what it takes to change something at the development stage, but that doesn't make it impossible, especially if it's determined that the level of work and cost is warranted. It's just funny to me that people are so adamant what Canon is and isn't doing when the reality is, not a single one of us knows what Canon did, no matter how far-fetched or labor intensive it may have been. Just because people think it doesn't make sense certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen. That's my only point, and unless you work for Canon and know exactly what went on, you can't refute that point.


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## Aussie shooter (Sep 11, 2021)

SF2000 said:


> Well, I don't think you can say that hypothetical(although I'd tend to agree) better ergonomics cancels the 50mp versus the rumoured 30megapixels of the R3. There's a lot to be said for a smaller body too. Additionally, the R1 doesn't exist yet, so I think it's a bit premature to make assumptions when nothing is known about it.


Again. As i pointed out to another response i said 'depending on ones use case'. Why do people miss that?


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## Aussie shooter (Sep 11, 2021)

Well. 


fentiger said:


> But you would be living in the out house, so you won’t need yer bollocks any more


That is true. But we dont really have an outhouse as such. Just a dog box.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2021)

Aussie shooter said:


> You may notice i said 'depending on use case. So yes. For some people ergonomics trump.mega pickles. You are not the only photographer on the planet you know


I didn’t buy the R5 but I am going to buy the R3. For me, the ergonomics trump the MP count.


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## Talys (Sep 11, 2021)

john1970 said:


> I really agree with your last sentence of your post. The R3 is 80% of the way to a flagship model at 95% of the cost...


I would be happy to be proven wrong, but I suspect the flagship price will be higher than the current price of a 1DX3.

Even at "just" $7500, this would make the R3 80% of the cost of an R1 

I truly don't know how price-sensitive people or companies who are in the market for a R1 are.


----------



## JGalicki (Sep 11, 2021)

Does anyone know if the 30fps will be uncompressed/14 bit files? It better be for the price and resolution you’re given.


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## Czardoom (Sep 11, 2021)

The R1 will cost $6,999, so the R3, at 5,999, is 85.7% of the cost. 

What I find somewhat odd - and perhaps amusing - is the forum dweller's obsession with Sony. My personal opinion, and I've seen a few photographers express similar opinions, is that the Sony A1 is much more comparable in performance and aimed at the same target market as the R5. Sony does not have a camera that readily compares with any Canon series 1 camera, let alone the R3. It seems to me that the only people who care about whether a camera is the "flagship" are those that can brag to their friends that they own the "flagship". I doubt any serious photographer gives a hoot about whether their camera is the"flagship" or not. Serious photographers buy the camera that best suits their needs. In the Canon mirrorless world - at the moment - those who want a high MP camera can buy the R5. Those that want less MPs, but a more rugged, integrated grip body can buy the R3. So why in the world all the bitching and moaning other than to prove to a lot people how immature you are? That's my opinion, anyway.


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## DrToast (Sep 11, 2021)

Dragon said:


> Sorry, I speaking to value, not currency exchange.



Oh that must be why you said:



> if Canon doesn't forward price, they will either have to raise the price shortly down the road (which is damn hard) or take a bath on the *currency exchange*


----------



## dcm (Sep 11, 2021)

I'll reserve judgement on the price until we actually know what we are getting. I'd like to see what the early reviewers cannot talk about that might make this price seem quite reasonable. We clearly don't know everything about it. So here's a wild suggestion. Is Canon going to do something unexpected, like 16 bit raw? Maybe that (or something else) is why we only see 24 megapixel JPGs so far. Would that change your thinking? After the R5/R6, will they introduce another ground breaking camera? We just don't know, yet.


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## Skux (Sep 11, 2021)

Seems like pretty good value? You're getting a mirrorless 1DX3 with better specs for $500 less.


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## Jethro (Sep 11, 2021)

dcm said:


> I'll reserve judgement on the price until we actually know what we are getting.


Burn the witch!


----------



## bergstrom (Sep 12, 2021)

So I'll never own thios camera and have to wait for the next entry mirorless from canon next year.


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## unfocused (Sep 12, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> You suggested that Canon recognized they’d need an interim MILC model to bridge the temporal gap and release the R1 on the recent cycle of 1-series updates, i.e., around 2024. I think that’s very likely. So the R3 will meet the needs of 1-series shooters who want to use a MILC for whatever reason – faster frame rate, using the new RF lenses like the 28-70/2, etc.
> 
> The R1 then ‘replaces’ both the 1D X III and R3. I do think that means the R1 keeps a moderate resolution, 24-30 MP.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I have no clue (admitting that all we do here is guess anyway).

What confuses me would be if the R1 is going to follow the traditional path of the 1 series, it should have a conservative resolution. But, would they really offer two gripped bodies with a 24mp and say a 30 mp sensor? Doesn't seem likely to me. But, if they go with 45 or more mp, they are breaking with tradition and I'm not sure that's what the traditional audience would want (if we are to believe Canon's longstanding policy of making their flagship camera lower resolution to accommodate those working under deadlines.)

I do tend to agree with you that those predicting a high-MP body are hoping for wish fulfillment and I also agree that most will never buy one, but simply in my opinion, want to be able to say to their Sony and Nikon frenemies that Canon has a higher resolution body.

For me personally, I'll be racing you to hit the preorder button. I'm sure you will beat me to it because I'm on central time and I don't intend to be setting an alarm clock or anything. I'm not quite that crazy. Close, but not quite.


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## tigers media (Sep 12, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


very interesting to see the price disparity, $6000 usd is $8156aussie and the euro conversion makes it $9794 those Europeans are getting shafted by canon crazy. the $1600 dollar difference you could fly to USA and have a holiday and pay no taxes! apart from Covid meaning we cant even leave our own country. at least until next year some time. You d have to be crazy to buy one in Europe from a dealer.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2021)

unfocused said:


> Yeah, I have no clue (admitting that all we do here is guess anyway).
> 
> What confuses me would be if the R1 is going to follow the traditional path of the 1 series, it should have a conservative resolution. But, would they really offer two gripped bodies with a 24mp and say a 30 mp sensor? Doesn't seem likely to me. But, if they go with 45 or more mp, they are breaking with tradition and I'm not sure that's what the traditional audience would want (if we are to believe Canon's longstanding policy of making their flagship camera lower resolution to accommodate those working under deadlines.)
> 
> ...


I think time will make the difference. A 24-30 MP R1 released 3 years from now can be a successor to the R3 and the 1D X III from last year. I agree that the R3 is likely to be a one-off.

Now that my kids are back in school, I’m up at 6a anyway.


----------



## Jethro (Sep 12, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I think time will make the difference. A 24-30 MP R1 released 3 years from now can be a successor to the R3 and the 1D X III from last year. I agree that the R3 is likely to be a one-off.
> 
> Now that my kids are back in school, I’m up at 6a anyway.


Man, there'll be some disappointed posters here if the R1 isn't released for 3 years! I guess it depends on the final specs of the R3 and a clearer idea of the niche it's aimed at (which will also say something about whether it's a one-off or not). But if the take-up is very good (which I suspect it will be) then I can't see them rushing out a 1D Xiii replacement 12 months down the track. The 1 DXiii would be 'due' for replacement anyway in about ... 2023?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2021)

Jethro said:


> The 1 DXiii would be 'due' for replacement anyway in about ... 2023?


1D X - 2012
1D X II - 2016
1D X III - 2020

That suggests 2024 for the next 1-series body.


----------



## Lt Colonel (Sep 12, 2021)

Just curious, but is the lower MP camera for the "professionals" still an issue? Are larger files as big of an impediment in today's environment with faster processors in cameras and computers, faster media cards, faster USB throughput, 5G LTE broadband, and all the techno marvels today?


----------



## GoldWing (Sep 12, 2021)

Rofl.... who would buy this? What an insult. No bushido


----------



## HotPixels (Sep 12, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I didn’t buy the R5 but I am going to buy the R3. For me, the ergonomics trump the MP count.


It's been my experience that the best photographers almost always value the handling and ergonomics of a camera over some tech specs like MP (assuming that certain minimum standards have been met, which with today's cameras almost always applies.).

I am certainly not one of those best photographers, but I know when I am out shooting, usually my ability to know and operate my camera becomes more important than MP or other technical capabilities of that camera, because all of the camera are so advanced anyway. A lot of that is on me, but it does help to have a camera with a great design, user friendly controls and menu's, etc.

Canon has mastered the user experience moreso than most other brands, and I think that is why they have been number 1 all of these years.

BTW, someone noted this in another discussion a while back: amateurs care more about the specs but don't know what to do with them.


----------



## HotPixels (Sep 12, 2021)

Lt Colonel said:


> Just curious, but is the lower MP camera for the "professionals" still an issue? Are larger files as big of an impediment in today's environment with faster processors in cameras and computers, faster media cards, faster USB throughput, 5G LTE broadband, and all the techno marvels today?


Yes, because most people don't yet have all of those techno marvels yet. How many people have 5G ultra wide band, the really fast type that makes a difference? A tiny amount so far. Most athletic venues do not have the latest and greatest broadband connectivity. Most do not have the latest and greatest computers. All of that takes time and serious money to upgrade.

As someone noted on another site: "Just browse the Getty Coverage from Olympics and you will have a hard time finding photos that are larger than 14-15 Mpix. Yes, there are some, but through their website, the largest dimension on most of their photos is less than 4500Px. And they want 475 USD for them..."


----------



## Jethro (Sep 12, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> 1D X - 2012
> 1D X II - 2016
> 1D X III - 2020
> 
> That suggests 2024 for the next 1-series body.


Interesting, although I recall the 1D XIII was a fairly modest update, so there might be an impulse to move onto a mirrorless version a little more quickly. I still think that will partly depend on the reception and uptake of the R3, and (obviously) ongoing feedback from existing users of the pro-bodies.


----------



## Kiton (Sep 12, 2021)

bellorusso said:


> I wouldn't be able to afford it even for $4000. But logically, $6000+taxes - way too much. Obviously, Canon is aiming at agencies only. Photographers who pay for their own equipment won't be very happy to spend that much.



They only like the agencies and big newspapers for the visual impact. Canon doesn't really give us any incentive to purchase. Unlike Sony and Nikon.
I buy my own gear and do not get a camera allowance.
Sony is much more willing to work with news fotogs to get gear in their hands. They understand we get stopped and asked what camera to buy almost every day. I was stopped in a park today after shooting a motorcycle pix.
But I am in too deep and love the Canon files, so I am %&*#@ 
And Canon seems to know it.


----------



## Kiton (Sep 12, 2021)

HotPixels said:


> Yes, because most people don't yet have all of those techno marvels yet. How many people have 5G ultra wide band, the really fast type that makes a difference? A tiny amount so far. Most athletic venues do not have the latest and greatest broadband connectivity. Most do not have the latest and greatest computers. All of that takes time and serious money to upgrade.
> 
> As someone noted on another site: "Just browse the Getty Coverage from Olympics and you will have a hard time finding photos that are larger than 14-15 Mpix. Yes, there are some, but through their website, the largest dimension on most of their photos is less than 4500Px. And they want 475 USD for them..."



Spot on, on many fronts.
I shoot for the biggest newspaper group in the country and we are all running 1d X mk 2 with zero plans to update in the foreseeable future. 
The mk 2 is still a good camera. So I buy my own.

The other aspect you didn't mention is the cost of the servers to store it all.
We have a max output size on the long side that came out of discussions based solely on a server upgrade and the related costs.


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## Cyborx (Sep 12, 2021)

Can I hear an AMEN? Thank you…
I was spot on. Finger to all of my criticasters here….


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## sanj (Sep 12, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> 1D X - 2012
> 1D X II - 2016
> 1D X III - 2020
> 
> That suggests 2024 for the next 1-series body.


If there is one.


----------



## DBounce (Sep 12, 2021)

sanj said:


> If there is one.


There will be, and it will arrive in time for the Olympics.


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## jam05 (Sep 12, 2021)

HotPixels said:


> It's been my experience that the best photographers almost always value the handling and ergonomics of a camera over some tech specs like MP (assuming that certain minimum standards have been met, which with today's cameras almost always applies.).
> 
> I am certainly not one of those best photographers, but I know when I am out shooting, usually my ability to know and operate my camera becomes more important than MP or other technical capabilities of that camera, because all of the camera are so advanced anyway. A lot of that is on me, but it does help to have a camera with a great design, user friendly controls and menu's, etc.
> 
> ...


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## jam05 (Sep 12, 2021)

You're making the assumption that every one on these forums are amateurs. By the way, full time professional photographers are a small subset of camera owners. If Canon depended on only "Professional" photographers they would have ceased manufacturing of cameras decades ago. Their cash cow units that sell in abundance are not manufactured with professionals in minds. Photography is an element of the arts.


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## jam05 (Sep 12, 2021)

HotPixels said:


> Yes, because most people don't yet have all of those techno marvels yet. How many people have 5G ultra wide band, the really fast type that makes a difference? A tiny amount so far. Most athletic venues do not have the latest and greatest broadband connectivity. Most do not have the latest and greatest computers. All of that takes time and serious money to upgrade.
> 
> As someone noted on another site: "Just browse the Getty Coverage from Olympics and you will have a hard time finding photos that are larger than 14-15 Mpix. Yes, there are some, but through their website, the largest dimension on most of their photos is less than 4500Px. And they want 475 USD for them..."


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2021)

sanj said:


> If there is one.


Are you suggesting that Canon will not launch any more 1-series cameras? That seems completely unrealistic. Canon already stated that they’re working toward a 1-series MILC (presumably to be called the R1).

I suspect you interpreted my list to mean I’m suggesting there will be a 1D X IV in 2024, but if you scroll up you’ll see that I suggested that is the timing of the R1, replacing both the R3 and the 1D X III.


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## jam05 (Sep 12, 2021)

Are you serious? The exported immage size has nothing to do with the size of the sensor or mp count. When one purchases immages from them or a liscence nearly all the immages have high resolution options available.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2021)

Cyborx said:


> Can I hear an AMEN? Thank you…
> I was spot on. Finger to all of my criticasters here….


Spot on about what? Your guesses on price that ranged from 3999 to 6000? Lol. Finger that.


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## jam05 (Sep 12, 2021)

I would rather have the option of higher resolution and not need it than need the higher resolution and not have it. And no, rental house are not available in every region. The idea that a sensor has to be configured or manufactured for only low megapixel or high megapixel is outdated. Samsung and Sony both have EXOCELL sensors configurable for 12.5/50/200 mp. $6000 for chimped technical hardware so as not to impede R5 sales.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2021)

jam05 said:


> I would rather have the option of higher resolution and not need it than need the higher resolution and not have it.


How do you like your Phase One XF IQ4 150MP body? I presume that’s what you have, since high resolution is so important to you.


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## sanj (Sep 12, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Are you suggesting that Canon will not launch any more 1-series cameras? That seems completely unrealistic. Canon already stated that they’re working toward a 1-series MILC (presumably to be called the R1).
> 
> I suspect you interpreted my list to mean I’m suggesting there will be a 1D X IV in 2024, but if you scroll up you’ll see that I suggested that is the timing of the R1, replacing both the R3 and the 1D X III.


Of course, there will be R1. I am sceptical about 1dx4 - for that matter any more DSLRs.


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## sanj (Sep 12, 2021)

DBounce said:


> There will be, and it will arrive in time for the Olympics.


Sure.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2021)

sanj said:


> Of course, there will be R1. I am sceptical about 1dx4 - for that matter any more DSLRs.


So am I, not sure they’ll be a 1D X IV (as I said, I didn’t suggest there would be).

I do think there will be more low-end DSLRs, though. DSLRs comprise close to half the ILC market, and that portion is dropping at only ~1% per year.


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## sanj (Sep 12, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> So am I, not sure they’ll be a 1D X IV (as I said, I didn’t suggest there would be).
> 
> I do think there will be more low-end DSLRs, though. DSLRs comprise close to half the ILC market, and that portion is dropping at only ~1% per year.


I think the 1% drop rate will accelerate.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2021)

sanj said:


> I think the 1% drop rate will accelerate.


It may. However, it’s been that rate for about 4 years now, so it may not.


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## Berowne (Sep 12, 2021)

Nikon stopped producing of the F6 in 2020. This was the last (analog) SLR. My guess is, that in the end we will see the Canon 1Dx and the Leica S being the last DSLR's. 
 The End


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## Aussie shooter (Sep 12, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I didn’t buy the R5 but I am going to buy the R3. For me, the ergonomics trump the MP count.


For me it is all about use case. If I was shooting architecture on a tripod i couldn't give two hoots about ergonomics. If I was on the sidelines of an F! race then I would want a big, heavy, stable camera that will handle rain, wind and the occasional piece of flying debris and will have the ability to transfer files at lightning pace. So absolutely you would take an R3 over an R5 or even a Sony A1


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## Viggo (Sep 12, 2021)

tigers media said:


> very interesting to see the price disparity, $6000 usd is $8156aussie and the euro conversion makes it $9794 those Europeans are getting shafted by canon crazy. the $1600 dollar difference you could fly to USA and have a holiday and pay no taxes! apart from Covid meaning we cant even leave our own country. at least until next year some time. You d have to be crazy to buy one in Europe from a dealer.


A couple of things, a camera isn’t the only expensive thing in Europe, it would easily cost more than $1600 to fly to the us and back not counting a visa and hotel etc. The exchange rate is nowadays horrible against the dollar, being 50% higher than ten years ago. Plus you have to take time off work and lose money. On your arrival back you should go though customs with the camera and pay the tax on the US price anyway, can’t just bring it in. There are also rules on how much value in goods you can bring after a short and a longer trip. We always have a 5 year warranty here, if I buy from the US it is 1 year. And then later selling it used, you loose at least 10% extra if it’s not bought locally.

So, yeah, we usually buy in Europe unless it’s accessories.


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## AlanF (Sep 12, 2021)

Viggo said:


> A couple of things, a camera isn’t the only expensive thing in Europe, it would easily cost more than $1600 to fly to the us and back not counting a visa and hotel etc. The exchange rate is nowadays horrible against the dollar, being 50% higher than ten years ago. Plus you have to take time off work and lose money. On your arrival back you should go though customs with the camera and pay the tax on the US price anyway, can’t just bring it in. There are also rules on how much value in goods you can bring after a short and a longer trip. We always have a 5 year warranty here, if I buy from the US it is 1 year. And then later selling it used, you loose at least 10% extra if it’s not bought locally.
> 
> So, yeah, we usually buy in Europe unless it’s accessories.


Are you sure there is always a 5 year warranty? I thought it is generally 2 years - and this seems to be in agreement https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/faq/index_en.htm Our warranties in the UK were 2 years when we were in the EU and haven't changed. The Canon UK store gives 2 years https://store.canon.co.uk/warranty/
Just checked, Canon offers 1 year plus 1 year European extension over the whole of Europe for all of its products but a retailer may offer more https://www.canon.co.uk/support/consumer_products/warranty_faqs/#tab-content2


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## adrian_bacon (Sep 12, 2021)

Toglife_Anthony said:


> If the R3 was meant to be the R1 but they changed the name, they still have to develop an R1.
> If the R3 was meant to be the R3 and they didn't change the name, they still have to develop an R1.
> Either way, they still have to develop an R1.


True, they have to develop an R1 either way. The difference is whether or not they were planning to. If the R3 was originally the R1, then yeah, that's kind of a big deal because then they have to do an R1 when they thought they already had one and wasn't planning on it, if not, then they were planning to do it all along.


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## Viggo (Sep 12, 2021)

AlanF said:


> Are you sure there is always a 5 year warranty? I thought it is generally 2 years - and this seems to be in agreement https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/faq/index_en.htm Our warranties in the UK were 2 years when we were in the EU and haven't changed. The Canon UK store gives 2 years https://store.canon.co.uk/warranty/
> Just checked, Canon offers 1 year plus 1 year European extension over the whole of Europe for all of its products but a retailer may offer more https://www.canon.co.uk/support/consumer_products/warranty_faqs/#tab-content2


Yes, I’m sure . the manufacturer guarantee is mostly two years, but at least in Norway it’s an additional 3 years “on everything that’s meant to last longer than 2 years”. So basically batteries aren’t included, but all hardware. Phone companies tried to wiggle their way out of it , but phones are deemed to expensive to only last 2 years or 1 years so they’re also included. If every European country has 5 years I don’t know, but we do.


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## canonmike (Sep 12, 2021)

Jethro said:


> Interesting, although I recall the 1D XIII was a fairly modest update, so there might be an impulse to move onto a mirrorless version a little more quickly. I still think that will partly depend on the reception and uptake of the R3, and (obviously) ongoing feedback from existing users of the pro-bodies.


Valid observations. It will be interesting to see valid R3 comparisons by long time 1Dx users, many of which just have a toe dipped into the mirrorless pool. Will the more rugged, weather sealed R3 be the format that causes die hard 1Dx pros to finally migrate to mirrorless?? No doubt, Canon is hoping the R3 release will help them test the waters against their beloved 1D's. Very much looking fwd, over the next sev months, to in depth reviews from same, somewhat discounting the ambassadors' opinions, for obvious reasons. There are a few that don't really care about the reviews, wanting to form their own opinions by immediately pre-ordering, stating that they'll try the R3 out, with the knowledge they can re-sell it, if it doesn't perform to their demanding , job based, real world expectations. Those are the reviews I want to see.


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## canonmike (Sep 12, 2021)

Viggo said:


> Yes, I’m sure . the manufacturer guarantee is mostly two years, but at least in Norway it’s an additional 3 years “on everything that’s meant to last longer than 2 years”. So basically batteries aren’t included, but all hardware. Phone companies tried to wiggle their way out of it , but phones are deemed to expensive to only last 2 years or 1 years so they’re also included. If every European country has 5 years I don’t know, but we do.


Wow! That is some warranty......I assume this is only valid for original purchaser???


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## Viggo (Sep 12, 2021)

canonmike said:


> Wow! That is some warranty......I assume this is only valid for original purchaser???


Nope, all you need is the receipt . I’ve bought a lot of gear used still within 5 years of original purchase and I’ve also got the items repaired without any issues or cost.


----------



## dboris (Sep 12, 2021)

Viggo said:


> Yes, I’m sure . the manufacturer guarantee is mostly two years, but at least in Norway it’s an additional 3 years “on everything that’s meant to last longer than 2 years”. So basically batteries aren’t included, but all hardware. Phone companies tried to wiggle their way out of it , but phones are deemed to expensive to only last 2 years or 1 years so they’re also included. If every European country has 5 years I don’t know, but we do.


And another good point for Norway. Other EU countries don't.


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## BurningPlatform (Sep 12, 2021)

Well, 


dboris said:


> And another good point for Norway. Other EU countries don't.


Well, last time I checked, Norway was not an EU country. They have their own rules, though their ETA and EFTA agreements do place some restrictions.


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## GMAX (Sep 12, 2021)

BurningPlatform said:


> Well,
> 
> Well, last time I checked, Norway was not an EU country. They have their own rules, though their ETA and EFTA agreements do place some restrictions.


That's fully correct. Norway is located in Europe but not member of the EU. EU countries in Blue.


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## takesome1 (Sep 12, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> It may. However, it’s been that rate for about 4 years now, so it may not.


Maybe when L lenses are actually ready and available the rate will increase.
It is hard to commit to a system when you go to B&H and there are only 2 L lenses available to order.
What is worse is the adapters are hardly ever in stock, why buy a camera if you are unable to get the lens you want or the adapter for the lens you have.


----------



## reef58 (Sep 12, 2021)

djack41 said:


> I enjoy wildlife photography. My trusty 1DX2 now stays behind. The R5 is my go to camera. The ability to crop and retain detail is a big advantage of high MP files. Canon has to keep pace. A 24 MP sensor in a new $6000.00 camera is a hard sell. JMHO


While I agree in some areas of photography cropping ability is nice and even necessary. On the other side of the coin however some folks don't crop, or if they do don't need dense files. Some people don't want 45 or 50 megapixel files. I own both and use the appropriate tool for the occasion.


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## Chris.Chapterten (Sep 12, 2021)

Viggo said:


> Nope, all you need is the receipt . I’ve bought a lot of gear used still within 5 years of original purchase and I’ve also got the items repaired without any issues or cost.


That’s interesting. Canon Australia gives 5 year warranty here too but it is non-transferable


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2021)

takesome1 said:


> Maybe when L lenses are actually ready and available the rate will increase.
> It is hard to commit to a system when you go to B&H and there are only 2 L lenses available to order.
> What is worse is the adapters are hardly ever in stock, why buy a camera if you are unable to get the lens you want or the adapter for the lens you have.


Given that APS-C cameras comprise 90% of ILC sales, I doubt that increased availability of L-series lenses will make a shred of difference.


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## SaP34US (Sep 12, 2021)

I don’t think that 5,999$ US if it is going to to 6,099 Euros. Does the 6,099 Euros in vat since the vats are different country to country?


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## Czardoom (Sep 12, 2021)

Toglife_Anthony said:


> All I said was that folks are acting as if it's an _impossible _theory, NOT that it doesn't require effort. Having worked in project management for well over a decade I fully understand the life cycle of things and what it takes to change something at the development stage, but that doesn't make it impossible, especially if it's determined that the level of work and cost is warranted. It's just funny to me that people are so adamant what Canon is and isn't doing when the reality is, not a single one of us knows what Canon did, no matter how far-fetched or labor intensive it may have been. Just because people think it doesn't make sense certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen. That's my only point, and unless you work for Canon and know exactly what went on, you can't refute that point.


So glad to see how proud you are of your theory! Of course, since none of us work for Canon, we have no proof that your theory is impossible. How lucky you must feel that this is so!

All that aside, I am glad that your theory is almost certainly - but not provably - wrong. Since the release cycle for their 1 series cameras has been every 4 years, and released in time for the summer Olympics, if this was going to be the R1, then it would mean that they were rushing out their latest 1 series camera (plus, almost certainly ensuring lower sales, since the 1DX III was released less than 2 years ago). I don't care about sales, of course, but just pointing out another reason why your theory is most likely totally invalid. But, personally, I would rather Canon stick to the statements they have made indicating that they are not going to rush out a "flagship" camera, but will ensure that they have every issue and innovation worked out to the best of their ability. I think long time Canon owners do not want to see Canon take on the Sony philosophy of releasing cameras in what many folks considered "beta"versions. I'm not sure they would have the patience, or the gullibility, of those early Sony adapters who bought the first 2 generations of the A7 series cameras. As a Canon user for over 25 years, I would have been really pissed if Canon released such sub-par cameras with the thought that I can just buy the next version, which will fix all those issues...at full price, of course. I did own, for a brief time, the A7 and the A7 II, so I speak with at least my own experience about these cameras. Luckily I was able to see their deficiencies within the return window timeframe and did not lose any money. One could argue that the entire FF Sony A series was a Beta version, as many claim that the camera was originally designed to be APS-C and then changed at the last minute to FF. So I guess last minute changes are possible! 

But for a "flagship" camera that will have a heavy price tag, I hope Canon takes their time to get things right. I think, as others have pointed out, that the R3 is a way to go part way there on the way to what they hope to accomplish with the R1.


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## ConanRumours (Sep 12, 2021)

Aussie shooter said:


> R3 is a stacked BSI and will be a much better camera ergonomically so that cancells out the 50mp depending on ones use case. The R1 is likely going to be the one camera to rule them all and will be priced accordingly.


The R1 is a unicorn at the moment. Th3 r3 doesn't beat the A1, and you can always get a grip for the a1, which I think it's nice to have the option to have a smaller body when needed. Frankly this seems like the mirrorless version of the 1dIII with the addition of the new iris tracking AF.


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## DBounce (Sep 12, 2021)

For comparison here are the rumored Nikon Z9 flagship specs. Price is rumored to be between $6K - 7K:


Nikon Z9 mirrorless cameras:


8256 x 5504px resolution that confirms a *45MP stacked sensor* (it is interesting to note that Canon decided to go with a 24MP sensor for their R3 camera).
The Z9 will be capable of up to 120 fps in a lower res file size (6Mb I think). Some reports even indicated 160 fps!
Built-in GPS – probably GNSS (Global Navigation Satellite System).
The Z9 will use the same battery as D6. There will be also a new 18-type battery (EN-EL18x) that can be charged by the camera’s USB-C.
The sensor has multi leaf blade protective shutter that auto covers sensor when switched off/changing lens to stop dust and dirt on naked sensor.
The Z9 will have *car autofocus* in addition to animal and people AF as well as low light -7 EV.
Improved 3D tracking.
*Improved articulated screen* that even works in portrait mode – it is a completely new design.
New style locking flap for the *two CFExpress memory cards*.
Third joystick/selector added to use whilst camera close face and shooting.
Many new menu features to tweak and match your shooting style.
The shutter release sound level can be adjusted from silent to loud… so you can still get that D6 machine gun sound…
The official announcement is expected in the next 2 months, but do not expect many cameras to ship before the end of the year. Because of part shortage, the waiting time for the Z9 is expected to be very long.


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 12, 2021)

Apple would sell you six monitor stands for just $5,994


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## Franklyok (Sep 12, 2021)

Good job japanese people! And now lets continue with R1 rumors…


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## aceflibble (Sep 12, 2021)

DBounce said:


> For comparison here are the rumored Nikon Z9 flagship specs. Price is rumored to be between $6K - 7K:



The difference is that Nikon have said the Z9 is going to be _the_ top model of the Z line, whereas Canon have specifically said the R3 is their _second_-top model; the 1D X III is still Canon's #1 (literally) body and will remain so until a potential R1.

I expect what Canon are doing is replicating the 1D/1Ds split which lead the way for their digital SLRs prior to the 'X' merging. The change they've made is to name one of the models '3' rather than having two '1's, since last time it did cause some confusion.
So, what I am anticipating eventually happening is Canon having two 'integrated grip' models, the R3 being like the old 1D series which is optimised for sports and news where speed and in-camera jpg quality matters more than resolution, and an R1 being like the 1Ds line which is optimised for studio, landscape and architecture where resolution and the best possible raw quality is prioritised over speed.

A lot of people are expecting every mirrorless camera to carry on being jacks-of-all-trades like the last few top SLRs are. The problem is this is a full system reboot, just like when the industry moved to digital, and just like before that when everyone moved to automatic focus and exposure. So while there is advancement, there will also be some elements which regress; swapping to a whole new design is always two steps forward, one step back. We've seen the Sony a1 try to do everything in one and it's a very good camera in all regards, but the rolling shutter is a bit much for some sports pros, the raw quality is not quite as good for landscape as the a7R IV, etc. Everything about it is a 9/10, but nothing manages to hit 10/10. I'm not expecting the Z9 to be a diferent story; I'm sure it'll be great in every regard, but I don't see them making it the absolute best-in-class in any one single area.
By splitting your top performance across multiple bodies, each optimised for a specific requirement, Canon could actually make the R3 _the_ top sports camera, while a potential R1 could be _the_ top image quality camera. Instead of one camera that is a 9/10 in everything, they can make cameras which are 10/10 in a couple of key areas. And when you're a full-time, 24/7 professional, that extra optimisation for the specific task you need to do becomes everything. Dentists and lawyers who want the fanciest toy to show off down the country club will prefer the all-rounders, but there's a reason why for decades the sports sidelines have been dominated by Canon's sports-optimised bodies, while the resolution-optimised bodies have held the highest market share in product, fashion, and natural sciences photography.

There are positive rumours that Fujifilm will be doing this with the X-H2, having two bodies optimised for different purposes so pros can pick the body which is perfect for their particular uses, rather than settling on a body that is _almost_-but-not-quite perfect and paying for features they won't use.


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## Viggo (Sep 12, 2021)

SaP34US said:


> I don’t think that 5,999$ US if it is going to to 6,099 Euros. Does the 6,099 Euros in vat since the vats are different country to country?


As far as I can tell it’s without VAT.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2021)

aceflibble said:


> I expect what Canon are doing is replicating the 1D/1Ds split which lead the way for their digital SLRs prior to the 'X' merging.
> 
> Canon could actually make the R3 _the_ top sports camera, while a potential R1 could be _the_ top image quality camera.


Canon merged the 1D lines and effectively made the 5-series the go-to for wedding/studio work.

I suspect they’ll replicate that in their MILC lines. I don’t think they want their second-best camera on the sidelines of sporting events and winning WPI awards for war-zone images. They want their flagship to get that exposure, and that means a 1-series body.

Sports and PJ shooters don’t seem to require high MP, so the R1 will likely be 24-30 MP and launch in 2024, on schedule for the 4-year upgrade cycle of the 1-series and as a replacement for the 1D X III and the R3.

Canon has no need to rush a FF 1-series to market. They haven’t rushed anything about their MILC strategy. They were the last to enter the MILC market, and the last to enter the FF MILC market. They were and have remained the ILC market leader, despite all the dire predictions on CR forums about how they would suffer for being so ‘late’ and ‘behind’.

I’d expect an R5-series with a very high MP sensor in the next 1-2 years, aimed at studio/wedding shooters. The R3 will tide over those sports/PJ folks who want a Canon MILC, until the R1 arrives aimed at that group. Both will appeal to different sets of enthusiasts.

People here predicting a high MP R1 are doing so mainly because it’s what they want. In fact, I want one too, but I base my predictions on logic and observations, not on my personal desires.


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## unfocused (Sep 12, 2021)

aceflibble said:


> The difference is that Nikon have said the Z9 is going to be _the_ top model of the Z line, whereas Canon have specifically said the R3 is their _second_-top model; the 1D X III is still Canon's #1 (literally) body and will remain so until a potential R1....



Your response is very thoughtful and makes a lot of good points. But, I think there are some glaring holes in there as well.



aceflibble said:


> ...what I am anticipating eventually happening is Canon having two 'integrated grip' models, the R3 being like the old 1D series which is optimised for sports and news where speed and in-camera jpg quality matters more than resolution, and an R1 being like the 1Ds line which is optimised for studio, landscape and architecture where resolution and the best possible raw quality is prioritised over speed...



I'm not sure what advantages a gripped 1 series style body would have for studio, landscape and architecture. What not simply use an R5 and if longer battery life is needed, add a grip. The 5 series has traditionally been more popular for these uses anyway.



aceflibble said:


> ...By splitting your top performance across multiple bodies, each optimised for a specific requirement, Canon could actually make the R3 _the_ top sports camera, while a potential R1 could be _the_ top image quality camera.



However, as @neuroanatomist has pointed out, one of Canon's big marketing ploys has been the lineup of sports photographers at top professional, Olympic and NCAA events all using Canon. He asked if Canon would really want to showcase its second-best camera in this way.



aceflibble said:


> Dentists and lawyers who want the fanciest toy to show off down the country club will prefer the all-rounders...



If they want the fanciest toy wouldn't that be the R1?



aceflibble said:


> ...but there's a reason why for decades the sports sidelines have been dominated by Canon's sports-optimised bodies



See above comments about showcasing your second-best body.



aceflibble said:


> ...while the resolution-optimised bodies have held the highest market share in product, fashion, and natural sciences photography.



The 5 Series, which isn't going anyplace.

Not trying to pick on you, because I think yours was a well reasoned post, but as I said, there are some issues I can't get past. Mainly, I'm trying to envision what the actual market for an R1 will be and what targeting to that market will dictate in terms of features. 

I am of at least two opinions right now:

1) The R3 is an interim body that Canon released because they just don't feel that mirrorless technology has advanced to the point where it deserves the 1 Series label. Under this theory, we would see the 1D remain as the flagship until 2024 and then, in time for the next Olympics, Canon announces a merger of the 1D x and R3 lines into an R1 and the R1 continues in the tradition of the 1D series.

2) Canon has determined that there is more money to be made selling high end cameras to enthusiasts who, in your words, "want the fanciest toys" than there is trying to sell to a shrinking professional market. In which case, the R1 will likely have a 45 mp or higher sensor and pack in every high tech bell and whistle they can dream up. This certainly seems to be the way the market is headed and if one needs proof of that, all you need do is take a look at the growing number of high-end tours provided by entities like National Geographic, Lindholm and Pangolin to name just three. 

Anyway, to quote Groucho Marx


> Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well I have others.


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## reef58 (Sep 12, 2021)

takesome1 said:


> Maybe when L lenses are actually ready and available the rate will increase.
> It is hard to commit to a system when you go to B&H and there are only 2 L lenses available to order.
> What is worse is the adapters are hardly ever in stock, why buy a camera if you are unable to get the lens you want or the adapter for the lens you have.


I just ordered a lens from B&H and they have the 35,85, 50 1.2, 600, 24-105, and maybe the 50 1.8 in stock. Did not check the adapters.


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## AEWest (Sep 12, 2021)

unfocused said:


> Your response is very thoughtful and makes a lot of good points. But, I think there are some glaring holes in there as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I predict #2 - high mp R1. Obviously a low mp R1 can't coexist with an R3, and I believe the R3 line will become Canon's go to sports/pj camera.

Withe the Z9 coming out, Canon will want to compete with a pro body high mp, not an R5.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I predict #2 - high mp R1. Obviously a low mp R1 can't coexist with an R3, and I believe the R3 line will become Canon's go to sports/pj camera.
> 
> Withe the Z9 coming out, Canon will want to compete with a pro body high mp, not an R5.


Predict, or personally want?

Answer honestly:
1) Does it make sense for Canon’s second-best camera to be the one most used at high-profile events?
2) Has Canon’s history suggested the use of a high MP sensor in their sports/PJ camera?

I agree that is doesn’t make sense to have a 20 MP 1D X III and a 24 MP R3 aimed at sports/PJ then release a 24-30 MP R1 aimed at sports/PJ…if the R1 is released soon.

But why must it be released soon? Because of Nikon? That rationale was used when Nikon came out with their first MILC. Canon waited, Nikon’s failed, Canon’s became a global best-selling line. That rationale was used when Sony came out with their first FF MILC. Canon waited 4 years to launch theirs.

Nikon is also losing ILC market share, mainly to Sony, such that they’re now 3rd in a market that was formerly dominated by just two makers.


----------



## FrenchFry (Sep 12, 2021)

SaP34US said:


> I don’t think that 5,999$ US if it is going to to 6,099 Euros. Does the 6,099 Euros in vat since the vats are different country to country?


Nokishita leaked the Euro price first and said it might not be final. A follow up tweek confirmed that their Euro price leak does include 20%VAT.
Nokishita subsequently leaked USD prices, which are pre-tax.

You are correct that a pricing of $5999 USD and 6099 Euro including 20% VAT would be a significant departure from how the same item is typically priced in both markets.


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## FrenchFry (Sep 12, 2021)

Viggo said:


> As far as I can tell it’s without VAT.


Nokishita said it included 20% VAT.


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## Charlie_B (Sep 12, 2021)

That's equivalent to $7,250 in the UK , over priced and with a 24mp sensor ( apparently)


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 12, 2021)

No R3 for me but this thread was worth a read... for the humour. 

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 12, 2021)

This completely new sensor is designed to produce less “rolling shutter” distortion during Electronic Shutter operation and offer continuous Electronic Shutter still-image shooting at speeds up to 30 fps — with full Dual Pixel CMOS AF and auto exposure1.

Does that imply the same shortcomings of the R5, which incidentally annoy me more often than I prefer? I'm not complaining, I'm just complaining.

Jack


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2021)

Regarding the timing of the R1, this (from an interview with a Canon exec) sounds like it could be a ways off:

_While the RF system is a major evolution of the EF system, we believe that in order to bestow an RF camera with the “1” model designation, we must achieve an even greater level of performance, and we continue to work towards reaching those high standards._


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## neurorx (Sep 12, 2021)

This price was a bit disappointing and really suggests an R1 price well above the Sony and Nikon Flagships. I hope Canon doesn’t wait 2 years and then release a camera to match with the A1 and Z9 at a higher price.


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## dolina (Sep 12, 2021)

The R3's $6,000. I wonder what the R1 will cost, $10,000?


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## jam05 (Sep 12, 2021)

aceflibble said:


> The difference is that Nikon have said the Z9 is going to be _the_ top model of the Z line, whereas Canon have specifically said the R3 is their _second_-top model; the 1D X III is still Canon's #1 (literally) body and will remain so until a potential R1.
> 
> I expect what Canon are doing is replicating the 1D/1Ds split which lead the way for their digital SLRs prior to the 'X' merging. The change they've made is to name one of the models '3' rather than having two '1's, since last time it did cause some confusion.
> So, what I am anticipating eventually happening is Canon having two 'integrated grip' models, the R3 being like the old 1D series which is optimised for sports and news where speed and in-camera jpg quality matters more than resolution, and an R1 being like the 1Ds line which is optimised for studio, landscape and architecture where resolution and the best possible raw quality is prioritised over speed.
> ...


There is only ONE jack of all trades Canon camera, the 5D and it's replacement the R5 with 45mp. There was a reason it was carried tothe Tokyo Olympics to handle what the R3 and 1dxIII could not. The X-H2 conversly will be 40mp both versions.


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## dboris (Sep 12, 2021)

I plan a trip to Japan to try to avoid VAT, grabbing R3, 28-70 and 100-500. I'm not a working photographer just an enthusiast who saved up. Is there anyone like me ?
Maybe I'll buy some Tenga to decoy the EU border control...
"Anything to declare?"
"Well... *sweats* this I bought" *shows a pack of three tengas*
*bored control start to inspect*
"Well they are used to I thought I could avoid declaring"


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## slclick (Sep 12, 2021)

dboris said:


> I plan a trip to Japan to try to avoid VAT, grabbing R3, 28-70 and 100-500. I'm not a working photographer just an enthusiast who saved up. Is there anyone like me ?
> Maybe I'll buy some Tenga to decoy the EU border control...
> "Anything to declare?"
> "Well... *sweats* this I bought" *shows a pack of three tengas*
> ...


Googled. Smirked. Wondered why you need more than one. Still,I don't judge.


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 12, 2021)

@dboris : I would put a few used face masks on top of my luggage. Then they might not check it. The masks do not really have to be used, but just look like used. And if they start checking anyway, just start caughing


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## Toglife_Anthony (Sep 12, 2021)

Czardoom said:


> So glad to see how proud you are of your theory! Of course, since none of us work for Canon, we have no proof that your theory is impossible. How lucky you must feel that this is so!
> 
> All that aside, I am glad that your theory is almost certainly - but not provably - wrong. Since the release cycle for their 1 series cameras has been every 4 years, and released in time for the summer Olympics, if this was going to be the R1, then it would mean that they were rushing out their latest 1 series camera (plus, almost certainly ensuring lower sales, since the 1DX III was released less than 2 years ago). I don't care about sales, of course, but just pointing out another reason why your theory is most likely totally invalid. But, personally, I would rather Canon stick to the statements they have made indicating that they are not going to rush out a "flagship" camera, but will ensure that they have every issue and innovation worked out to the best of their ability. I think long time Canon owners do not want to see Canon take on the Sony philosophy of releasing cameras in what many folks considered "beta"versions. I'm not sure they would have the patience, or the gullibility, of those early Sony adapters who bought the first 2 generations of the A7 series cameras. As a Canon user for over 25 years, I would have been really pissed if Canon released such sub-par cameras with the thought that I can just buy the next version, which will fix all those issues...at full price, of course. I did own, for a brief time, the A7 and the A7 II, so I speak with at least my own experience about these cameras. Luckily I was able to see their deficiencies within the return window timeframe and did not lose any money. One could argue that the entire FF Sony A series was a Beta version, as many claim that the camera was originally designed to be APS-C and then changed at the last minute to FF. So I guess last minute changes are possible!
> 
> But for a "flagship" camera that will have a heavy price tag, I hope Canon takes their time to get things right. I think, as others have pointed out, that the R3 is a way to go part way there on the way to what they hope to accomplish with the R1.


I must of missed my own theory, can you explain to me what was my theory that was wrong?!? Because all I said was that something wasn't impossible, which isn't a theory at all, but indeed a fact. Now if I were to say Canon could have created the R3 out of thin air, I could understand your long response to me. So there's no theory I have to be proud of. And as I've said at least 4 times now, I'm not saying the R3 was meant to be the R1, I merely said it's not impossible this could have been the case. Nothing more, nothing less. ;-)


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## Viggo (Sep 12, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> Nokishita said it included 20% VAT.


That would make it cost the same as the R5 here…


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## BuffaloBird (Sep 12, 2021)

HotPixels said:


> It's been my experience that the best photographers almost always value the handling and ergonomics of a camera over some tech specs like MP (assuming that certain minimum standards have been met, which with today's cameras almost always applies.).
> 
> I am certainly not one of those best photographers, but I know when I am out shooting, usually my ability to know and operate my camera becomes more important than MP or other technical capabilities of that camera, because all of the camera are so advanced anyway. A lot of that is on me, but it does help to have a camera with a great design, user friendly controls and menu's, etc.
> 
> ...


While I agree with this, generally, I have grown to appreciate and perhaps rely on the 45MP sensors of the R5 for cropping into tiny warbler photos. As comfortable as an R3 may be in-hand, it cannot do what I need it to at 24MP. Again, that's my use case, and I respect that others' use cases may be met by the R3.


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## FrenchFry (Sep 12, 2021)

Viggo said:


> That would make it cost the same as the R5 here…


Nokishita is the source. There is something that doesn't seem to add up about the US vs EU prices they leaked so far.
Nonetheless, they explicitly stated that their leaked price includes VAT of about 20%.


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## Serenesunrise (Sep 12, 2021)

Charlie_B said:


> That's equivalent to $7,250 in the UK , over priced and with a 24mp sensor ( apparently)


6099euro is equal to £5,204…if you add 20% VAT that is £6,245. But if the 6099 price includes VAT then the R3 could be priced at £5204….but then again we will probably end up paying more in the UK.


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## takesome1 (Sep 12, 2021)

reef58 said:


> I just ordered a lens from B&H and they have the 35,85, 50 1.2, 600, 24-105, and maybe the 50 1.8 in stock. Did not check the adapters.


Only the 50 1.2 is an L lens in your list. The L 85 is not in stock, they had the imported in stock a few weeks ago but not now. The other L lens in stock is the 70-200mm F4L.
I waited months for the $199 adapter to be in stock, it was just a few weeks back for one day and I ordered quickly and then they were all gone.
There are quit a few non L lenses.


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## stevelee (Sep 12, 2021)

sanj said:


> This obsession with 'flagship' is weird. Flagship does not mean the camera is 'best', as best is for the photographer's wants. If a photographer wants high MPX, then R3 is not 'best' but R5 is. If the photographer wants, speed R3 is 'best'.


Yes owning the “flagship” sounds more like a matter of bragging rights than of taking pictures.


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## Viggo (Sep 12, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> Nokishita is the source. There is something that doesn't seem to add up about the US vs EU prices they leaked so far.
> Nonetheless, they explicitly stated that their leaked price includes VAT


€6099 x 1.25 = Norwegian price, is my guess for Tuesday. It will be a fun day no matter what, and I can’t afford it either way


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## AEWest (Sep 12, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Predict, or personally want?
> 
> Answer honestly:
> 1) Does it make sense for Canon’s second-best camera to be the one most used at high-profile events?
> ...


I could not imagine a low mp sports camera that would be worth $2K more than the R3 (assumimg that the R1 price is as high as people are suggesting). The R3 specs seems to tick most boxes for the sports shooter crowd. I don't think they care if it has a "1" in the name.

But I can imagine an R1 with 60+ MP, global shutter (high speed flash sync), 16 bit files (better skin tones), lower fps that would be of interest to landscape, architecture, commercial photographers. And of course to the all important well healed enthusiasts.


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## FrenchFry (Sep 12, 2021)

Viggo said:


> €6099 x 1.25 = Norwegian price, is my guess for Tuesday. It will be a fun day no matter what, and I can’t afford it either way


As long as you enjoy hearing the words "game changer" repeated every other sentence, then you will LOVE the Canon Europe event!

By the way, I added screenshots of the Nokishita tweets (one stating VAT is including, one saying it is "about 20%) in post 228.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I could not imagine a low mp sports camera that would be worth $2K more than the R3 (assumimg that the R1 price is as high as people are suggesting). The R3 specs seems to tick most boxes for the sports shooter crowd. I don't think they care if it has a "1" in the name.


I am not suggesting the photographers care, I am saying Canon would care. 



AEWest said:


> But I can imagine an R1 with 60+ MP, global shutter (high speed flash sync), 16 bit files (better skin tones), lower fps that would be of interest to landscape, architecture, commercial photographers. And of course to the all important well healed enthusiasts.


Those use cases don’t seem to require an extremely rugged body with an integrated grip.

Consider this: for many years Canon carried both the 1D line (faster, lower MP, sports/PJ) and the 1Ds line (slower, high MP, wedding/commercial). When they ‘merged’ those lines, the resulting 1D X and its successors looked essentially like the 1D. 

A ‘cycle’ after that merge, Canon increased the MP of the 5-series to the highest FF MP count (50 MP in the 5Ds/R) in a Canon FF camera to date – the ‘crown’ first held by the 1Ds series. 1Ds -> 5Ds. The torch was passed.

That seems like good evidence Canon feels the high MP needs are best met by a 5-series body. Thus we also have the R5 at 45 MP. I expect the R5s will be along as some point with a 60-80 MP sensor and modest fps. Then the R1 at modest MP.


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## Chig (Sep 12, 2021)

Lt Colonel said:


> Just curious, but is the lower MP camera for the "professionals" still an issue? Are larger files as big of an impediment in today's environment with faster processors in cameras and computers, faster media cards, faster USB throughput, 5G LTE broadband, and all the techno marvels today?


Well yes I'd say it would be as they don't need high mp so all it would do is slow down their workflow and the camera's speed in an ultra competitive deadline driven environment.
What would pros want in a new camera:

higher fps
bigger buffers
better autofocus
more accurate autofocus
faster autofocus acquisition
better autofocus tracking
better subject recognition
better wireless transfer speeds
better ergonomics
What wouldn't they want:

higher mp
slower transfer speeds
smaller buffers
etc.
etc.
All the improvements in processing and transfer speeds apply to all the photographers so if your camera has bigger files you're just slowing yourself down for zero benefit.

Remember cameras like the 1DX series and the R3 are specifically designed for sports/press photojournalists not for general purpose work like the R5 and R6 and 5D series.


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## Chig (Sep 12, 2021)

Viggo said:


> Yes, I’m sure . the manufacturer guarantee is mostly two years, but at least in Norway it’s an additional 3 years “on everything that’s meant to last longer than 2 years”. So basically batteries aren’t included, but all hardware. Phone companies tried to wiggle their way out of it , but phones are deemed to expensive to only last 2 years or 1 years so they’re also included. If every European country has 5 years I don’t know, but we do.


New Zealand and Australia both have 5 year warranties


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## JDavis (Sep 13, 2021)

Why is everyone talking about the A1? Thats Sony's flagship, this is not Canon's flagship. This competes with the a9 II, which is only $4,500 and now looks like a steal next to this for an absurd $6k. As usual, Canon's greed gets the best of them and they wildly overprice an RF product. That means you are looking at around $8k if they ever produce that R1. These ridiculous prices, plus the fact that they are keeping their RF mount closed to 3rd party, are the reasons I had enough after 17 years and switched to Sony. I now have plenty of choices for lenses in all focal lengths and at all price points. Canon is the new Leica, only the rich can afford their $6k cameras and $3k lenses, except Canon is not nearly as good or original as Leica.


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## stevelee (Sep 13, 2021)

Viggo said:


> €6099 x 1.25 = Norwegian price, is my guess for Tuesday. It will be a fun day no matter what, and I can’t afford it either way


Yes, a fun day when both Apple and Canon will announce new products, none of which I will want to buy. But I will read about them, and maybe watch Apple’s presentation.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2021)

JDavis said:


> Why is everyone talking about the A1? Thats Sony's flagship, this is not Canon's flagship. This competes with the a9 II, which is only $4,500 and now looks like a steal next to this for an absurd $6k. As usual, Canon's greed gets the best of them and they wildly overprice an RF product. That means you are looking at around $8k if they ever produce that R1. These ridiculous prices, plus the fact that they are keeping their RF mount closed to 3rd party, are the reasons I had enough after 17 years and switched to Sony. I now have plenty of choices for lenses in all focal lengths and at all price points. Canon is the new Leica, only the rich can afford their $6k cameras and $3k lenses, except Canon is not nearly as good or original as Leica.


You’re right, no one can afford the <$1000 EOS RP, the $400 24-105, or the new $300 16/2.8. Canon is so elitist.


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## JDavis (Sep 13, 2021)

canonmike said:


> I think we were all surprised by the lens price increase, as many of us felt Canon had already priced most of their L lenses at the upper range of what one would expect. On the other hand, we don't really know the current cost of R&D, materials, chips, marketing, transportation, etc., involved in the mfg of camera gear right now. We also don't have the privilege of inside information as to what Canon's profit margins on R/RF eqpt. are either. In the absence of the aforementioned, I will temper my criticism(s).


It has nothing to do with chip shortages. Everyone is facing the same chip shortages, yet Canon is the only one raising prices on lenses. It has everything to do with their insane greed, like this stupidly priced $6k camera. Keep it up Canon, you are pricing yourself right out of the market. Sony and Nikon are celebrating right now.


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## JDavis (Sep 13, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> You’re right, no one can afford the <$1000 EOS RP, the $400 24-105, or the new $300 16/2.8. Canon is so elitist.


No one wants 4 year old cameras that were so gimped they sucked when they were released, and no one wants garbage quality budget gear either. Thats Canon's problem. The cameras and lenses are either so expensive you need to mortgage your home, or they are entry level garbage. There is ZERO middle ground. Thats where 3rd party companies like Sigma and Tamron would greatly help out, but Canon is too greedy to allow it. Hell, they already chased Samyang off.


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## GoldWing (Sep 13, 2021)

I'm sorry but how are ALL these people here raving they can't wait to buy a 20MP camera for $6,000? 

Why are you not waiting for the R1? 
If you're a PRO why not make it with a 1DXMKIII until the R1 if you're concerned about your glass
If you're a pro and already using a 1DXMKII or 1DXIII are you *not *getting the R1?
Why do you want a low-resolution camera when the Canon R5, SONY A1 and Nikon Z9 are all within reach?
Articulating back, Auto Eye Focus, Dissimilar Media Cards, Lower resolution than the R5, A1, Z9...... What are people thinking?


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## JDavis (Sep 13, 2021)

tigers media said:


> very interesting to see the price disparity, $6000 usd is $8156aussie and the euro conversion makes it $9794 those Europeans are getting shafted by canon crazy. the $1600 dollar difference you could fly to USA and have a holiday and pay no taxes! apart from Covid meaning we cant even leave our own country. at least until next year some time. You d have to be crazy to buy one in Europe from a dealer.


Sony and Nikon are somewhere celebrating together right now because all Canon's absurdly priced cameras and lenses will do is drive potential customers straight to Sony and Nikon.


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## Kiton (Sep 13, 2021)

JDavis said:


> It has nothing to do with chip shortages. Everyone is facing the same chip shortages, yet Canon is the only one raising prices on lenses. It has everything to do with their insane greed, like this stupidly priced $6k camera. Keep it up Canon, you are pricing yourself right out of the market. Sony and Nikon are celebrating right now.


I read on a web security site they paid HUGE dollars to a ransomware attack. I think that also factors in the price increases. The 14-35 is almost 500 more than the Sony 16-35 here!! That is insane!


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## AEWest (Sep 13, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I am not suggesting the photographers care, I am saying Canon would care.
> 
> 
> Those use cases don’t seem to require an extremely rugged body with an integrated grip.
> ...


What's different now compared with the recent DSLR


neuroanatomist said:


> I am not suggesting the photographers care, I am saying Canon would care.
> 
> 
> Those use cases don’t seem to require an extremely rugged body with an integrated grip.
> ...


In terms of sports photography, I think Canon cares more that there are big white lenses at events than which specific camera models are being used as long as they are pro-level ($$$) models. The R3, only $500 cheaper than the 1DX3, will provide Canon with a good market share and significant profits.

In terms of the overall camera line, Canon has already shown that they are going in a different direction than their recent DSLR history with their first ever pro-body that is not a "1" series camera. Some say that it is an interim camera until the 2024 Olympics. I disagree for the following reasons:

1. Too high a premium for an upgrade. Imagine that you are a sports photographer now and looking for a mirrorless camera. So you go out and buy an R3 for $6K. In three years you are going to shoot at the Olympics and Canon comes out with a low MP R1 (the replacement for the R3) and they want $8K for it. True it will likely have global shutter and better autofocus. But $2K better? If I'm that guy, I'm scrambling to buy another R3 instead. It's tough to pay that much more for a camera that will be used for the same purpose.

2. Profits. A high MP R1 with global shutter, 16 bit files, and lower FPS than the R3 would be attractive to a wide variety of professionals and enthusiasts (wildlife, macro, landscape, commercial, architecture, etc). Canon could justify the $8K price based on pro-body, high MP, plus these other improvements over an R3. However, if they leave the high MP model to the 5 series, they will only be able to charge maybe $4,500 for it. I believe they would be able to sell many high MP R1s at $8K as there seems to be a market for premium high MP cameras such as the Fuji GFX 100s. Canon would want a piece of this market. There would still be room for a ultra high MP R5, but it likely wouldn't have a BSI sensor, global shutter, 16 bit file, etc and therefore priced accordingly.

3. Size reduction will make the R1 more attractive for non sports photographers. The R3 body is significantly smaller and lighter (I assume, no weight data yet provided) than the 1DX3. This is important because a future R1 will I believe likely also have a similar form factor, and therefore the weight penalty of going to a 1 series vs 5 series camera is much reduced compared to the DSLR era. This will make the R1 much more attractive to commercial and wealthy enthusiast photographers that had been using a 5 series camera due to the excessive size of the existing 1 series camera.

So these are the reasons why I believe the R1 will be a high MP camera instead of a replacement for the R3. But only time will tell.


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## Chig (Sep 13, 2021)

dboris said:


> I plan a trip to Japan to try to avoid VAT, grabbing R3, 28-70 and 100-500. I'm not a working photographer just an enthusiast who saved up. Is there anyone like me ?
> Maybe I'll buy some Tenga to decoy the EU border control...
> "Anything to declare?"
> "Well... *sweats* this I bought" *shows a pack of three tengas*
> ...


No warranty is a pretty major downside and a trip to Japan including accommodation won't be cheap


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## Billybob (Sep 13, 2021)

Kiton said:


> I read on a web security site they paid HUGE dollars to a ransomware attack. I think that also factors in the price increases. The 14-35 is almost 500 more than the Sony 16-35 here!! That is insane!


Well at Adorama, it's $1098, so the price is $600 different. However, I don't consider this a fair comparison. That 1mm at the wide end is huge, and the Sony lens--one of Sony's first G lenses--is at best extremely ordinary. It's quite good from 16-21mm, but just okay to mediocre beyond 24mm. Thus, the Canon zoom is worth a significant premium over the Sony. Whether that difference is $500-$600, only the purchaser can say. I ended up with the 15-35L gray market for $1900. No regrets.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2021)

JDavis said:


> No one wants 4 year old cameras that were so gimped they sucked when they were released, and no one wants garbage quality budget gear either. Thats Canon's problem.


Canon sells more ILCs that anyone else and has for close to two decades. They don’t have a problem. Sounds like you might, though. Good luck with it.


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## canonmike (Sep 13, 2021)

JDavis said:


> It has nothing to do with chip shortages. Everyone is facing the same chip shortages, yet Canon is the only one raising prices on lenses. It has everything to do with their insane greed, like this stupidly priced $6k camera. Keep it up Canon, you are pricing yourself right out of the market. Sony and Nikon are celebrating right now.


It appears, jDavis, that you have a great deal of anger towards Canon, for whatever reason and it appears they have really gotten under your skin. You might want to stay off of social media for awhile, at least until the dust settles on the R3 announcement. BTW, I never mentioned anything about Chip shortages.


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## JohnC (Sep 13, 2021)

JDavis said:


> Sony and Nikon are somewhere celebrating together right now because all Canon's absurdly priced cameras and lenses will do is drive potential customers straight to Sony and Nikon.


Seems like I have seen this prophecy before….yet Canon is still doing well.


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## Juangrande (Sep 13, 2021)

BakaBokeh said:


> Okay, how much for the body only without the kit lens?


Me at McDonald’s looking in my empty wallet … how much for just the bun and pickle?


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> I'm sorry but how are ALL these people here raving they can't wait to buy a 20MP camera for $6,000?
> 
> Why are you not waiting for the R1?
> If you're a PRO why not make it with a 1DXMKIII until the R1 if you're concerned about your glass
> ...


You know nothing, Goldwing Snow.


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## Jethro (Sep 13, 2021)

It'll be great when the R3 is finally released (and, god help me, reviewed), so people can at least bitch about reality


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## Czardoom (Sep 13, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> I'm sorry but how are ALL these people here raving they can't wait to buy a 20MP camera for $6,000?
> 
> Why are you not waiting for the R1?
> If you're a PRO why not make it with a 1DXMKIII until the R1 if you're concerned about your glass
> ...


There seem to be handful of people who have said they will buy this camera. And another handful that may consider it when they get some actual reviews. At this price level, regardless of brand, there will never be a large number of buyers compared to the R5 or R6 for example, as far as I can guess.

So, potential buyers are:

1) Not waiting for the R1 because this camera has the capabilities they want; there is no R1 yet and we don't know what specs it will have; the R1 will cost more.

2) I'm sure many PROS are indeed using the 1DX III and have no plans to buy this camera. Other PROS that may still be using the 1DX II - and those looking to try mirrorless, may be potential buyers.

3) As mentioned, there is no R1, no specs for the R1, and the R1 will cost more. If this camera has the capabilities they need, PROS have no reason to wait - especially if they need to replace their older gear now (or soon) - and are looking for a cheaper camera.

4) Because higher MPS is either irrelavent or even a hindrance for some - if not many - action photographers. There have been replies in this thread from some PROS that have mnentioned reasons why lower MPs makes their jobs easier at various venues. Canon, no doubt, has done considerable market research in finding out what the target market would like to see in terms of MPs. Lower MPs makes it easier to have higher FPS. Lower MPs make it easier to have a larger buffer. There have been comments in other threads that have demonstrated that you need to crop consideably before the difference between 24 and 45 MPs even makes a noticeable difference.

I am just guessing of course, what people are thinking. But my guess, based on years worth of reading comments in threads, is that the majority of people are glad that the camera will have an articulating back. More people in other threads want dissimilar media cards than the two of the same, many are intrigued with Auto Eye Focus and hopeful it may be a very useful spec, and I've already mentioned the MP question.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2021)

Czardoom said:


> I am just guessing of course, what people are thinking.


See, that’s the difference. Goldwing claims he buys photo gear for the 20ish best sports photographers in the world, so he knows everything about what all sports photographers are thinking.

Surprisingly, none of those best sports photographers were at the Olympics in Tokyo. I guess their invitations were lost in the mail or something.


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## jam05 (Sep 13, 2021)

JDavis said:


> It has nothing to do with chip shortages. Everyone is facing the same chip shortages, yet Canon is the only one raising prices on lenses. It has everything to do with their insane greed, like this stupidly priced $6k camera. Keep it up Canon, you are pricing yourself right out of the market. Sony and Nikon are celebrating right now.


Not by a long shot. The market isnt comprised of only high end cameras. Canon dominates on the low end and entry level cameras also. Nobody sells more low end cameras than Canon.


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## David - Sydney (Sep 13, 2021)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> That’s interesting. Canon Australia gives 5 year warranty here too but it is non-transferable


can you post a link to where it says that the 5 year warranty isn't transferrable? We don't need to "register" to get the extended warranty so how would Canon know if you sold it with the original receipt but void the remaining warranty?


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## David - Sydney (Sep 13, 2021)

GMCPhotographics said:


> I can see a lot of doctors, IT professionals, surgeons, lawyers etc buying this camera. Not a lot of photographers...it's a great camera for the uber-wealthy.


Virtually everyone is a photographer now with their phones if nothing else. It is just a case of how much you are prepared to spend on camera equipment to get the shots you want. Even then you don't need to buy the best to get great shots. Less people will buy the R3 vs the R6 and R6 and M5 etc. That goes to price as well as GAS. That said, there is an inverse luxury brand rule where some brands increase their price and sell more!
The R3 will perform at the highest level. Whether some people consider it luxury is a different question


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## sanj (Sep 13, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> I'm sorry but how are ALL these people here raving they can't wait to buy a 20MP camera for $6,000?
> 
> Why are you not waiting for the R1?
> If you're a PRO why not make it with a 1DXMKIII until the R1 if you're concerned about your glass
> ...


Wait. Stop. A 'PRO' does not need 1dx or such. A huge amount of 'pro' work is headshots, product shots, advertising, medical, photos for website etc etc etc. The cameras you think a PRO needs is misguided. Just because a camera is a flagship does not make it the choice of 'pro' who need to look at ROI, mpx etc. R1/3 is for high-end photojournalists, wildlife and sports shooters. These cameras are designed for them, as for them not missing a shot is paramount.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Sep 13, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> can you post a link to where it says that the 5 year warranty isn't transferrable? We don't need to "register" to get the extended warranty so how would Canon know if you sold it with the original receipt but void the remaining warranty?



Here you go - https://www.canon.com.au/support/warranty

Point 5. "This Warranty is non-transferable"

They require you to send in the original receipt for warranty work so I'm assuming they just check your name against that. I suppose you could try and get around it by just making a new email adress, and putting a different name on the box? Not really sure how they check these things...


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## David - Sydney (Sep 13, 2021)

JDavis said:


> No one wants 4 year old cameras that were so gimped they sucked when they were released, and no one wants garbage quality budget gear either. Thats Canon's problem. The cameras and lenses are either so expensive you need to mortgage your home, or they are entry level garbage. There is ZERO middle ground. Thats where 3rd party companies like Sigma and Tamron would greatly help out, but Canon is too greedy to allow it. Hell, they already chased Samyang off.


Ever think that Canon believes that their adapted EF lens range is the middle ground? 
Almost all the RF lens range expand the features from their EF counterparts so could be considered a step above the EF version in the market


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## David - Sydney (Sep 13, 2021)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Here you go - https://www.canon.com.au/support/warranty
> 
> Point 5. "This Warranty is non-transferable"
> 
> They require you to send in the original receipt for warranty work so I'm assuming they just check your name against that. I suppose you could try and get around it by just making a new email adress, and putting a different name on the box? Not really sure how they check these things...


Interesting. Not sure if they can enforce this legally ie the ACCC/fair trading would have an issue with it.


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## David - Sydney (Sep 13, 2021)

Dragon said:


> To all those kvetching about price, the value of the dollar is dropping like a rock and if Canon doesn't forward price, they will either have to raise the price shortly down the road (which is damn hard) or take a bath on the currency exchange. Be prepared for this strategy from all the camera manufacturers.


Perhaps the "dropping like a rock" is referring to the impending US debt default as the US politicians again argue about the debt ceiling with brinksmanship. There always seems to be a inverse spike when this issue comes up.


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## David - Sydney (Sep 13, 2021)

Sporgon said:


> Pumice Stone maybe ?


Laws of gravity would mean that all types of rock will drop at the same rate. Terminal velocity will be affected by air resistance and of course Eistein's relativity of space/time distorts gravity as well.


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## Chris.Chapterten (Sep 13, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Interesting. Not sure if they can enforce this legally ie the ACCC/fair trading would have an issue with it.


On that Warranty page they state: "In addition to your consumer rights, Canon offers the following manufacturer’s warranty"

Australian law may entitle you to a "consumer guarantee" of some description for perhaps 1-2 years from date of original purchase even if the product is second hand. But I'm not sure if they would be able to enforce a transfer of the 5 year warranty period on second hand goods?

After some quick reading, it also makes a difference as to weather you purchased the second hand goods from a business that is considered a "retailer" that sells second hand goods for a living.. or just a one off purchase from a private seller.


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## Jsjamesok (Sep 13, 2021)

Kiton said:


> Spot on, on many fronts.
> I shoot for the biggest newspaper group in the country and we are all running 1d X mk 2 with zero plans to update in the foreseeable future.
> The mk 2 is still a good camera. So I buy my own.
> 
> ...


Kiton I worked for pay in college but now just a serious enthusiast. Do you just send the JPEGs to the editors basically untouched and they crop etc?


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## Jsjamesok (Sep 13, 2021)

takesome1 said:


> Maybe when L lenses are actually ready and available the rate will increase.
> It is hard to commit to a system when you go to B&H and there are only 2 L lenses available to order.
> What is worse is the adapters are hardly ever in stock, why buy a camera if you are unable to get the lens you want or the adapter for the lens you have.


I actually ordered my adapter last October and I ordered my R5 when it arrived in early December. Stared at the adapter for about a month. I've bought some strange things but it was strangest recently. 

I've got a four good L series EF lenses, so it was a good call. But my experience was what you describe. B&H delivery of adapter was twice as long as the R5 body.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 13, 2021)

takesome1 said:


> Maybe when L lenses are actually ready and available the rate will increase.
> It is hard to commit to a system when you go to B&H and there are only 2 L lenses available to order.
> What is worse is the adapters are hardly ever in stock, why buy a camera if you are unable to get the lens you want or the adapter for the lens you have.


1) Put the adapters on the Canon Price Watch notification list. The Canon store regularly gets "refurbished" adapters in stock at a nice discount. You just have to act fast.
2) For lenses that are in high demand, you really need to go ahead and order them. B&H, Amazon and Adorama do get lenses in stock but they immediately ship them out to customers on the waiting list. It took about four months but B&H finally shipped the 100-500 lenses (two because I bought one for my wife as well). 
3) Again, put any lenses you want on your Canon Price Watch notification list. The 70-200 2.8 actually comes into stock at the refurbished store fairly regularly and the Canon store does get some stock of other high demand lenses (new) but you have to at fast because they go out of stock within a few hours or even minutes.


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## unfocused (Sep 13, 2021)

Jsjamesok said:


> Kiton I worked for pay in college but now just a serious enthusiast. Do you just send the JPEGs to the editors basically untouched and they crop etc?


I don't know what his situation is, but I can tell you that on many midmarket newspapers in the U.S. there are no photo editors to send anything to anymore. Heck, our local paper (which is in the capital city) doesn't even have copy editors anymore (which is apparent from the massive number of typos in every edition).


----------



## ashmadux (Sep 13, 2021)

djack41 said:


> I would be all in but for the 24 MP sensor. It is a deal killer.


Just like the 20mp of the R6. Could only purchase with throwaway money for that ridiculously low mp.


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## Joel C (Sep 13, 2021)

6,000$ for a "non-flagship" camera makes me ponder the validity of the rumored 800$ Full frame RF mount camera coming out next year...


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## sanj (Sep 13, 2021)

Joel C said:


> 6,000$ for a "non-flagship" camera makes me ponder the validity of the rumored 800$ Full frame RF mount camera coming out next year...


No connection...


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 13, 2021)

What happened to my 1D X this year made me cautious about buying another €6,000 camera. Although I thought that the shutter would be the first thing to break after a high number of shots, it was the main board that suddenly stopped working. I have read that many 1D X owners had the same problem. One guy even reported that it happened again with his replaced main board. I had to pay more than €600 to get a new main board. That still sounds okay, but I can never be sure when this will happen again. The main reason I bought the 1D X was that I thought it would be reliable and therefore justify the price. If the shutter is rated 400,000 shots and the rest of the camera should last even longer, such a camera should basically work forever, as I take less than 10,000 shots per year. The truth is though that it broke after about 60,000 shots just because of electronics.

My concern is that mirrorless cameras rely on electronics even more. Will Canon really put super reliable electronic components into its new cameras or do they expect professionals to use a camera no longer than five years or so anyway? We see that problem at Apple. Apple does not expect customers to use any of their products for more than five years and their smartphones even much shorter. While I have a lot of trust in Leica for example who would always use the best componenst available in the market, I am not so sure if Canon shares that philosophy. If there is a transistor available for 30 cents that lasts five years and another for 50 cents that lasts twenty years, my fear is that Canon would opt for the cheaper one as five years are "long enough".

Some Canon cameras recently had large problems with heat. Even if the R3 will not have to shut down because of overheating, heat can still lower the life of the electronics significantly. If I was really going to spend over €6,000 on another camera, I want to have trust that it works MUCH longer than the warranty lasts if I handle it very well. What the R3 is capable of would easily satisfy my needs for another ten years of so and after that time I would still love to have it as a backup camera. Can I really have that trust in a camera that even needs electronicy just to use the viewfinder? What if the R3 has some flaws and most bodies will stop working after a few years? How long will the IBIS work and how much will it cost to repair it? After what happened to my 1D X and learning that it happens quite often, I need some time to get back some trust in Canon.


----------



## tigers media (Sep 13, 2021)

Viggo said:


> A couple of things, a camera isn’t the only expensive thing in Europe, it would easily cost more than $1600 to fly to the us and back not counting a visa and hotel etc. The exchange rate is nowadays horrible against the dollar, being 50% higher than ten years ago. Plus you have to take time off work and lose money. On your arrival back you should go though customs with the camera and pay the tax on the US price anyway, can’t just bring it in. There are also rules on how much value in goods you can bring after a short and a longer trip. We always have a 5 year warranty here, if I buy from the US it is 1 year. And then later selling it used, you loose at least 10% extra if it’s not bought locally.
> 
> So, yeah, we usually buy in Europe unless it’s accessories.


fair enough we must be luck as we have duty free limits , and generally they only tax tobacco at about 400% but if its open and using it they would never know you brought it. Before covid I used to always buy big budget items tax free on holidays. Sorry to hear the govts are slamming you for the extra not good


----------



## bernie_king (Sep 13, 2021)

BuffaloBird said:


> While I agree with this, generally, I have grown to appreciate and perhaps rely on the 45MP sensors of the R5 for cropping into tiny warbler photos. As comfortable as an R3 may be in-hand, it cannot do what I need it to at 24MP. Again, that's my use case, and I respect that others' use cases may be met by the R3.


My only problem with that is that the R5 has such a bad time picking the warblers out of the scrub. I was so excited this year at Magee Marsh to have 45mp and found myself struggling at times if the bird was in the bushes (which is where they almost always are with Warblers). I will say the shots I got were phenomenal (and Magee was slow this year), but I think I got more keepers with Warblers when I shot the 1DX II. It's that darn huge focus point for single-point focus. Not sure if I'll use the R3 or R5 at Magee next year, but who knows. I know I was never unhappy with the detail at 20mp with the 1DX II. Another place I'm hoping to see improvement.


----------



## PerKr (Sep 13, 2021)

not surprised at the pricing. I mean, the R5 was about that much around here when it became available. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the R3 is at $7k here a week after launch. Not that it matters much to me in real life, I'm just not willing to spend that kind of money on a camera at this time. I'm just annoyed at canon's pricing strategy for the market I'm stuck with.

As for the A1... The R3 does seem like it will spank it in everything except resolution.


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 13, 2021)

Another good trick for the customs: Cover the "R3" with "RP". Then the customs officer will google for the price of the RP and it will only cost a few bucks of customs.


----------



## alexKan (Sep 13, 2021)

JohnC said:


> Seems like I have seen this prophecy before….yet Canon is still doing well.


Canon is accelerating it ,
Higher price , heavier lens/ smaller aperture, close mount algorithm ( much fewer 3rd lens than Sony) , etc..................... 
actually, both AP and PA switch to sony ............


----------



## sanj (Sep 13, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> What happened to my 1D X this year made me cautious about buying another €6,000 camera. Although I thought that the shutter would be the first thing to break after a high number of shots, it was the main board that suddenly stopped working. I have read that many 1D X owners had the same problem. One guy even reported that it happened again with his replaced main board. I had to pay more than €600 to get a new main board. That still sounds okay, but I can never be sure when this will happen again. The main reason I bought the 1D X was that I thought it would be reliable and therefore justify the price. If the shutter is rated 400,000 shots and the rest of the camera should last even longer, such a camera should basically work forever, as I take less than 10,000 shots per year. The truth is though that it broke after about 60,000 shots just because of electronics.
> 
> My concern is that mirrorless cameras rely on electronics even more. Will Canon really put super reliable electronic components into its new cameras or do they expect professionals to use a camera no longer than five years or so anyway? We see that problem at Apple. Apple does not expect customers to use any of their products for more than five years and their smartphones even much shorter. While I have a lot of trust in Leica for example who would always use the best componenst available in the market, I am not so sure if Canon shares that philosophy. If there is a transistor available for 30 cents that lasts five years and another for 50 cents that lasts twenty years, my fear is that Canon would opt for the cheaper one as five years are "long enough".
> 
> Some Canon cameras recently had large problems with heat. Even if the R3 will not have to shut down because of overheating, heat can still lower the life of the electronics significantly. If I was really going to spend over €6,000 on another camera, I want to have trust that it works MUCH longer than the warranty lasts if I handle it very well. What the R3 is capable of would easily satisfy my needs for another ten years of so and after that time I would still love to have it as a backup camera. Can I really have that trust in a camera that even needs electronicy just to use the viewfinder? What if the R3 has some flaws and most bodies will stop working after a few years? How long will the IBIS work and how much will it cost to repair it? After what happened to my 1D X and learning that it happens quite often, I need some time to get back some trust in Canon.


Sorry to hear about your experiance. My personal experience has been just the opposite. My camera's worked long and HARD.


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## sanj (Sep 13, 2021)

alexKan said:


> Canon is accelerating it ,
> Higher price , heavier lens/ smaller aperture, close mount algorithm ( much fewer 3rd lens than Sony) , etc.....................
> actually, both AP and PA switch to sony ............


I know this to be true in my periphery. Many are switching to Sony. I will not.


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## bernie_king (Sep 13, 2021)

alexKan said:


> Canon is accelerating it ,
> Higher price , heavier lens/ smaller aperture, close mount algorithm ( much fewer 3rd lens than Sony) , etc.....................
> actually, both AP and PA switch to sony ............


You do realize that Sony pays agencies like AP to switch, right? They didn't switch because they like Sony cameras so much, because they could buy Sigma lenses, because they were lighter, or because the photographers didn't care about the unparalleled service they would get from CPS, they did it because some bean counters made a deal. I know more photographers in my area that recently switched from Nikon to Canon than from Canon to Sony and none of them left Canon since the R5 release.


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## degos (Sep 13, 2021)

Kiton said:


> The other aspect you didn't mention is the cost of the servers to store it all.
> We have a max output size on the long side that came out of discussions based solely on a server upgrade and the related costs.



Well then just store the medium-resolution JPEG. And anyone else who wants maximum resolution can store the RAW.

If you have 5000 shots from a day's event it doesn't matter if they're 24 or 45 MP RAW, you still have 5000 JPEG thumbnails to review. And discard the ones you don't need.


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## blackcoffee17 (Sep 13, 2021)

Not a camera for me but i am very interested how good the new sensor is and especially curious about the eye controlled AF. 
Wish Canon pushed the resolution a bit more towards the 30s.


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## David_D (Sep 13, 2021)

tigers media said:


> very interesting to see the price disparity, $6000 usd is $8156aussie and the euro conversion makes it $9794 those Europeans are getting shafted by canon crazy. the $1600 dollar difference you could fly to USA and have a holiday and pay no taxes! apart from Covid meaning we cant even leave our own country. at least until next year some time. You d have to be crazy to buy one in Europe from a dealer.


There is a flaw in this! The 8156 AUD is *without tax* and the 9794 AUD is *with 20% tax*. Difference is 1638 AUD, but the extra tax (20% of 8156 AUD) is 1631 AUD. That means Canon are _shafting_ European customers by 7 AUD (< 0.1%). If anyone, Europeans are getting shafted by their (our) governments.


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## SnowMiku (Sep 13, 2021)

I have a question, if Canon were to use the 45MP R5 sensor in the R3 and if you were able to select a 24MP RAW mode, would that have the same speed in FPS, focus and everything else as an actual 24MP sensor? Perhaps the new stacked sensor will have lower noise and better DR and will be worth it for the market it's intended for?


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## AlanF (Sep 13, 2021)

SnowMiku said:


> I have a question, if Canon were to use the 45MP R5 sensor in the R3 and if you were able to select a 24MP RAW mode, would that have the same speed in FPS, focus and everything else as an actual 24MP sensor? Perhaps the new stacked sensor will have lower noise and better DR and will be worth it for the market it's intended for?


The stacked sensor is unlikely to have more than minimal differences in noise and DR. For example, the Sony 50 mpx stack sensor in its A1 has very similar DR to its conventional sensor in its 61 mpx A7RIV https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Sony ILCE-1,Sony ILCE-7RM4 or dynamic range shadow improvement https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR_Shadow.htm#Sony ILCE-1,Sony ILCE-7RM4


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## Viggo (Sep 13, 2021)

tigers media said:


> fair enough we must be luck as we have duty free limits , and generally they only tax tobacco at about 400% but if its open and using it they would never know you brought it. Before covid I used to always buy big budget items tax free on holidays. Sorry to hear the govts are slamming you for the extra not good


We have to keep receipts on our gear ready to show the customs, even for old gear, if you can’t prove you didn’t buy it while traveling you can be forced to pay the taxes on retail Norwegian price (again). Luckily it’s not like they have resources to really pick you out and follow through, but it happens.


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## Cernow (Sep 13, 2021)

Pass.


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## dlee13 (Sep 13, 2021)

An update from Nokishita 

The planned domestic release dates for new Canon products are RF100-400mm and RF16mm in late October 2021, R3 and accessories (ST-E10 / AD-E1 / ER-L1 / ER-hE / ER-h) in late November. It seems that the multi-accessory shoe smartphone adapter "AP-D1" will be in February 2022, and the multi-accessory shoe stereo microphone "DM-E1D" will be in March 2022.


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## degos (Sep 13, 2021)

aceflibble said:


> So, what I am anticipating eventually happening is Canon having two 'integrated grip' models, the R3 being like the old 1D series which is optimised for sports and news where speed and in-camera jpg quality matters more than resolution, and an R1 being like the 1Ds line which is optimised for studio, landscape and architecture where resolution and the best possible raw quality is prioritised over speed.



The 1D line always had higher pixel density than the 1Ds, just on a smaller sensor area. For example the 1D IV scaled to full-frame would have been 27MP equivalent, well beyond the 21MP 1Ds III.

It was only with the 1DX series that the 'explanation' that 'pros don't need resolution' arose.


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## DBounce (Sep 13, 2021)

dlee13 said:


> An update from Nokishita
> 
> It seems that the multi-accessory shoe smartphone adapter "AP-D1" will be in February 2022.


What is the AP-D1?


----------



## mpmark (Sep 13, 2021)

JDavis said:


> It has nothing to do with chip shortages. Everyone is facing the same chip shortages, yet Canon is the only one raising prices on lenses. It has everything to do with their insane greed, like this stupidly priced $6k camera. Keep it up Canon, you are pricing yourself right out of the market. Sony and Nikon are celebrating right now.


I find it quite interesting that you have such a strong dislike and opinion yet you’re still on a Canon discussion site. Hypocrite


----------



## Skyscraperfan (Sep 13, 2021)

I wonder how it is with Switzerland. They "only" have 7.7% VAT and it is not very hard to "smuggle" things to Germany. You can just walk across the border. And if that does npt work, you can walk to France and from there to Germany. That is very easy in Basel, Switzeland, as those three countries meet there. However Switzerland is very rich and everything usually is more expensive there. I am not sure about cameras.


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## DBounce (Sep 13, 2021)

JDavis said:


> It has nothing to do with chip shortages. Everyone is facing the same chip shortages, yet Canon is the only one raising prices on lenses. It has everything to do with their insane greed, like this stupidly priced $6k camera. Keep it up Canon, you are pricing yourself right out of the market. Sony and Nikon are celebrating right now.


That’s simply not true. Other manufacturers are also raising prices. Case in point Leica announced price increases across the board. Here’s is chat about camera system price increases in dpreview.

It’s probable that you only notice when Canon does this, because you primarily are interested in Canon.


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## Kiton (Sep 13, 2021)

Jsjamesok said:


> Kiton I worked for pay in college but now just a serious enthusiast. Do you just send the JPEGs to the editors basically untouched and they crop etc?




The fotog crops, colour correct and add full captions. They FTP back to the office.
No heal tool, no layers, no clone tool allowed.

We use to file our selects in RAW and Jpeg at the end of the month for the archive.
Then it was cut to just the jpeg.
Then it was cut to just what we sent back and the original untouched jpeg.
Then it was cut again to just what we FTP, there is no more monthly drop to the archive.

I store the full selects folder with raw and jpeg myself on mirrored hard drives.


----------



## Kiton (Sep 13, 2021)

Billybob said:


> Well at Adorama, it's $1098, so the price is $600 different. However, I don't consider this a fair comparison. That 1mm at the wide end is huge, and the Sony lens--one of Sony's first G lenses--is at best extremely ordinary. It's quite good from 16-21mm, but just okay to mediocre beyond 24mm. Thus, the Canon zoom is worth a significant premium over the Sony. Whether that difference is $500-$600, only the purchaser can say. I ended up with the 15-35L gray market for $1900. No regrets.



You are lucky you can get grey market. Not an option here, and Canon restricts B+H from shipping most canon gear to Canada.
If I had that choice I think I would have taken the same path as yourself.

The 14-35 is a little too dark in the corners at 14 for my taste buds, but I do love the light weight in my pocket.


----------



## Kiton (Sep 13, 2021)

sanj said:


> Wait. Stop. A 'PRO' does not need 1dx or such. A huge amount of 'pro' work is headshots, product shots, advertising, medical, photos for website etc etc etc. The cameras you think a PRO needs is misguided. Just because a camera is a flagship does not make it the choice of 'pro' who need to look at ROI, mpx etc. R1/3 is for high-end photojournalists, wildlife and sports shooters. These cameras are designed for them, as for them not missing a shot is paramount.



Most photographers I know and work with are somewhat shitty business people in the sense that ROI is far less important that great pictures. Great pictures ARE the ROI. Every newspaper and wire shooter still using Canon that I know is talking about the R3 based on olympic rumors. Having shot the entire Stanley Cup playoffs and finals on the R5, I know the R5 can do the job, so I am in wait and see, take the camera for a walk first mode for the R3.

You are right on the studio shooter front. All the studio guys I speak with are much happier with the 45mp of the R5 that eye focusing etc etc.


----------



## rbielefeld (Sep 13, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> My only problem with that is that the R5 has such a bad time picking the warblers out of the scrub. I was so excited this year at Magee Marsh to have 45mp and found myself struggling at times if the bird was in the bushes (which is where they almost always are with Warblers). I will say the shots I got were phenomenal (and Magee was slow this year), but I think I got more keepers with Warblers when I shot the 1DX II. It's that darn huge focus point for single-point focus. Not sure if I'll use the R3 or R5 at Magee next year, but who knows. I know I was never unhappy with the detail at 20mp with the 1DX II. Another place I'm hoping to see improvement.


Did you try Spot AF instead of single point? The Spot is pretty small and does a good job for me in shooting scenarios like you describe. I have 3 back buttons set up for 3 different AF methods. I have the AF-ON button set to eye detect with tracking and the AF Point Select button set to Spot AF. If I have a small bird in a bush I start with Spot to get initial focus on the bird and then switch to eye detect. Many times once the camera "knows" what you want to focus on by you telling it with Spot AF it will then track that subject very well with eye detect. Just a suggestion you might try as it works for me on the R5.


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## bernie_king (Sep 13, 2021)

rbielefeld said:


> Did you try Spot AF instead of single point? The Spot is pretty small and does a good job for me in shooting scenarios like you describe. I have 3 back buttons set up for 3 different AF methods. I have the AF-ON button set to eye detect with tracking and the AF Point Select button set to Spot AF. If I have a small bird in a bush I start with Spot to get initial focus on the bird and then switch to eye detect. Many times once the camera "knows" what you want to focus on by you telling it with Spot AF it will then track that subject very well with eye detect. Just a suggestion you might try as it works for me on the R5.


Yes, I have Spot AF set on my * key and Eye Detect with Tracking on my AF-On button. I'm not saying it never worked, but it was unreliable compared to my previous experience. I follow the same procedure that you outlined. The camera also loved to jump from the Warblers eyes to a leaf. I'm not thrilled the R3 is 24mp, but if the AF is better, I'd rather have a sharp photo then a bit more resolution. I'm also keeping my R5, so I guess I'll have a choice.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 13, 2021)

John Wilde said:


> "We still consider the EOS-1D X Mark III to be our flagship professional camera due to its extreme reliability and confidence it delivers in the hands of professionals. However, it is true that the EOS R3 exceeds the EOS-1D X Mark III in some specifications, to the extent which, by the conventional definition, you could consider it a flagship camera."
> 
> - Go Tokura, Chief Executive, Image Communication Business Operations at Canon (interview on DPR website.)
> 
> So it is, and isn't a flagship camera.



There is a small subset of people who care if their body is a "flagship." It would be illogical for Canon to tell people for whom the R3 is inappropriate that their 1D III isn't the flagship still. That subset of people tend to be the more macho crowd, which includes a higher percent of sports and PJ togs. The word/status issue isn't a fruitful discussion except where it suggests some insight into future body development. On that front, I find it confusing, as this non-1-series body is occupying the sports/pj, low-res slot. The only way I can make sense of this hierarchy in relation to future body developments is to assume that the R3 is actually supposed to be the wedding body (for which this is perfect), and that there will be a 1 series sports/pj update in a couple years, which will frustrate the bejeazus out of people with another low-ish resolution sensor. 

Meanwhile the 5 series will continue to be the 5 series, all-rounder and studio shooter, with a higher-res update on roughly a 4 year refresh schedule. It turns out that the 5DSR was a one-off. I think we can safely call that one. This means that it is less likely we'll see a mirrorless equivalent of it. The 80-120 mp range gives significantly less incremental value versus the 5DSR's jump from the 20's to the 50s. This is a prediction I hope is incorrect, as I'm among the minority who could use 80 mp (reach limited wildlife and macro).

If you step back, you may recall that the flagship or best body in a lineup is going to be different to different people and use cases. The studio/all-rounder user base of the R5 aren't overly-exercised about their camera attaining this flagship status. Which is exactly why it makes sense for a brand give that flagship label to the camera used by the group most insecure about their masculinity. 

Notably, I believe the R3 was actually designed ergonomically for women. I believe this gender thing is going to play out in an interesting way, and the R3 becoming known as a feminine product is undesirable to Canon; thus the sports emphasis in messaging. 

The R3 is going to (functionally) be the flagship for a couple years until the R1 comes out. Neuro, unfortunately, is right on the inexorable schedule of Canon. The company comes out with some tech innovations on occasion, but much more rarely moves up a schedule.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2021)

degos said:


> It was only with the 1DX series that the 'explanation' that 'pros don't need resolution' arose.


Yet somehow, after the 1D X at 18 MP came the 1D X II at 20 MP and then the 1D X III at 20 MP. Were those pros duped? I think it’s far more likely that the target market —sports photographers and photojournalists— wants more moderate resolution. For those pros needing more, there is the 5-series.


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## JohnC (Sep 13, 2021)

alexKan said:


> Canon is accelerating it ,
> Higher price , heavier lens/ smaller aperture, close mount algorithm ( much fewer 3rd lens than Sony) , etc.....................
> actually, both AP and PA switch to sony ............


Sure. Let's revisit the topic in 12-24 months and see how much further they have deteriorated in the industry. Canon has been watching the forest a lot longer than any of us have been caught up with a specific tree.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> I wonder how it is with Switzerland. They "only" have 7.7% VAT and it is not very hard to "smuggle" things to Germany. You can just walk across the border. And if that does npt work, you can walk to France and from there to Germany. That is very easy in Basel, Switzeland, as those three countries meet there. However Switzerland is very rich and everything usually is more expensive there. I am not sure about cameras.


I can’t speak for cameras specifically, but many people I know in Basel frequently shop in Germany for the lower prices. When I was in Basel, on weekends the #8 tram coming back from Weil am Rhein (just over the border) was full of people carrying bags and parcels. There is (was?) a small camera shop just off the Marktplatz in Basel, carried a lot of Leica gear and some Canon, their prices were pretty high. 

Here's a shot of the Dreiländerbrücke, the Three Country Bridge - Basel, Switzerland is the left shore; Huningue, France is at the end of the bridge; I took the picture from Weil am Rhein, Germany.


EOS 1D X, EF 24-70mm f/2.8*L* II USM @ 28mm, 30 s, f/11, ISO 200


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## Sporgon (Sep 13, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Laws of gravity would mean that all types of rock will drop at the same rate. Terminal velocity will be affected by air resistance and of course Eistein's relativity of space/time distorts gravity as well.


I’ll be more careful with my jokes in future


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 13, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I can’t speak for cameras specifically, but many people I know in Basel frequently shop in Germany for the lower prices. When I was in Basel, on weekends the #8 tram coming back from Weil am Rhein (just over the border) was full of people carrying bags and parcels. There is (was?) a small camera shop just off the Marktplatz in Basel, carried a lot of Leica gear and some Canon, their prices were pretty high.
> 
> Here's a shot of the Dreiländerbrücke, the Three Country Bridge - Basel, Switzerland is the left shore; Huningue, France is at the end of the bridge; I took the picture from Weil am Rhein, Germany.
> View attachment 200150
> ...


Nice to see that I am not the only one who still uses a 1D X. I think this camera would still be great in twenty years. The only thing I will is the IBIS. Imagine how great it would be to take such a photo handheld and still use ISO 100 or 200 with eight stops of IBIS! Of course that would not work at f/11, but anyway.

Even burgers at McDonald's are more expensive in Switzerland. 

I never walked across thazt bridge, but took the long "Elsässerstraße" from Switzerland to France. There were some buildings at the border, but nobody was in there. So I could have smuggeled anything across the border.

I will take a close look at the prices in Singapore. There tourists do not have to pay any VAT. They have to pay it at the sore, but they will get it back at the airport and they told me they will NOT report that to the local authorities of the home country. 

I remember that in China Sony cameras were much cheaper than in Europe. They offered the A9 for 35,000 Yuan in the Sony Store. That was below €4,600, while in Europe the camera was €5,300. That's already a €700 difference. For an R3 it would make a €800 difference, if same 13.2% price difference is true. Those €800 are enough for a flight to Shanghai. I can't thiink of a better place to test a new camera. 

Just out of curiosity I checked how much the A9 costs today, four and a half years after its release. The price has fallen to €3,000. That's 43% price drop. Of course waiting four years is not possible for everybody, but I suspect that the R3 price will already drop below €5,000 within the first year. Waiting might pay off.


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## MiJax (Sep 13, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yet somehow, after the 1D X at 18 MP came the 1D X II at 20 MP and then the 1D X III at 20 MP. Were those pros duped? I think it’s far more likely that the target market —sports photographers and photojournalists— wants more moderate resolution. For those pros needing more, there is the 5-series.


The 1DX was actually one of the highest resolution cameras of its time. However the Mark II and III bodies were a little bit lagging, especially the III. I say the III is especially compromised because it is effective the same gen as the R5/R6. Being the same gen, using the same processing, we know higher resolution was easily attainable with the same speeds. Also, I'd argue Canon sells more of these bodies to non-sports and PJs, meaning even though the sports and Pj crew is the intended audience, they are leaving money on the table.

Incidentally, I'd bet the sports and Pjs folks wouldn't mind a 12MP body, so that tells you how where their needs put them. Not to mention, the low MP counts are normally further manipulated by the intended audience almost exclusively shooting jpeg. So they get a 20MP file and shrink it down to 6-8MP immediately, to make the files easier and quicker to deal with in post (in which they aren't allowed to play with the DR anyway, so jpeg does make sense). However, its clear that their desires are not even close to what the market wants.

Long story story, the flagship body has made massive resolution compromises for nothing, for nearly 10 years. I do understand there is a slight difference in say... a 20 MP body's noise handling and a 40MP body downsized to 20MP, but its not massive. Sony and Nikon have effectively moved on from this thinking, I'm curious to see how long Canon will hold on to it.


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## FrenchFry (Sep 13, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> Nice to see that I am not the only one who still uses a 1D X. I think this camera would still be great in twenty years. The only thing I will is the IBIS. Imagine how great it would be to take such a photo handheld and still use ISO 100 or 200 with eight stops of IBIS! Of course that would not work at f/11, but anyway.
> 
> Even burgers at McDonald's are more expensive in Switzerland.
> 
> ...


Sure, with electronics waiting almost always reduces the amount that you will spend.
But if you need the R3 too take photos now, the opportunity cost of waiting may outweigh any savings.
Anyone who is fine with waiting a few years before getting the R3 will definitely spend more money but they probably also don't really need the R3 right now if they can wait that long.


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## macrunning (Sep 13, 2021)

Will it come with a set of keys? and drive me to work?


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 13, 2021)

I still prefer a lower resolution, because I need some kind of sharpness target I can always achieve. With a lower resolution image defects become visible much later. I can handhold the camera longer, shake the camera more, miss the focus more, I can use a higher f-stop before diffraction is visible and my depth of field looks longer, if my resolution is lower. Of course with a higher resolution I can get much sharper photos, but if the circumstances are not optimal, that higher resolution shows all the flaws in my image much clearer and I hate that. It is the same reason why you probably should not use a very high resolution for a portrait of a woman, because she will hate that every wrinkle is visible and then you have to soften that image in Photoshop anyway. 

Getting 20 megapixels or even 24 sharp without a tripod at night can already be enough of a challenge. A high resolution body would be a nice second body to have for certain situations. If money and weight were not as issue, I would probably use a low resolution camera as my main body and have a Fuji GFX 100S as a second body for certain situations that would benefit from a high resolution. 

By the way, didn't Canon mention some magic trick about the resolution for the R3? It might have a pixel shift that REALLY works and gives people a 96 megapixel photo even without a tripod. The IBIS could be a key to that. That kind of trick would satisfy all of us.


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## stochasticmotions (Sep 13, 2021)

Can't wait to see the reviews of this new camera. Canon's first stacked sensor camera in a big bulky body that a lot of people seem to like. I have a feeling that this will be just as much an upgrade from the 1DX for most photographers as the R5 was for many to the 5D IV (and to me from the 5DS). Electronic shutter with fast memory to pull the shot without much rolling shutter is one of the few things I would like to see come to the smaller bodies soon. The Sony A1 currently can do everything I would want but is much too expensive for me to justify at the moment, the R3 is also and I wouldn't go back to the massive body or back in resolution as even with 500-1000mm I still need to crop significantly on many wildlife and bird shots. The technology will come down to the $3500-4000 cameras in a few years just like the higher resolution with 10 fps and amazing autofocus have now made it to the cameras I now use (R5 and A7RIV). 

Eye autofocus is going to be an interesting feature to see in these new generation cameras. I still have my ELAN 7NE and it would be fun to compare to it.

In any case I have a feeling that anyone that is looking to get a new 1D "like" camera (and isn't dead against mirrorless) is going to be pretty happy with the R3.


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## FrenchFry (Sep 13, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> I still prefer a lower resolution, because I need some kind of sharpness target I can always achieve. With a lower resolution image defects become visible much later. I can handhold the camera longer, shake the camera more, miss the focus more, I can use a higher f-stop before diffraction is visible and my depth of field looks longer, if my resolution is lower. Of course with a higher resolution I can get much sharper photos, but if the circumstances are not optimal, that higher resolution shows all the flaws in my image much clearer and I hate that. It is the same reason why you probably should not use a very high resolution for a portrait of a woman, because she will hate that every wrinkle is visible and then you have to soften that image in Photoshop anyway.
> 
> Getting 20 megapixels or even 24 sharp without a tripod at night can already be enough of a challenge. A high resolution body would be a nice second body to have for certain situations. If money and weight were not as issue, I would probably use a low resolution camera as my main body and have a Fuji GFX 100S as a second body for certain situations that would benefit from a high resolution.
> 
> By the way, didn't Canon mention some magic trick about the resolution for the R3? It might have a pixel shift that REALLY works and gives people a 96 megapixel photo even without a tripod. The IBIS could be a key to that. That kind of trick would satisfy all of us.


Pixel shift only works when the subject is completely still. Since this body is marketed as a high-speed sports and action body, none of the subjects that this body is targeted for (racing cars, flying balls, hummingbirds) would be viable candidates for pixel shift shots. 

Yes, pixel shift would be a great addition to the camera for landscapes, but unfortunately it's unlikely to add any benefit to sports shooting, and so it would not satisfy the sports shooters that purchased the camera for fast action. Unless Canon has figured out a way to do pixel shift that overcomes the limitations of pixel shift as implemented by other brands. This would be a great surprise!


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 13, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> Pixel shift only works when the subject is completely still. Since this body is marketed as a high-speed sports and action body, none of the subjects that this body is targeted for (racing cars, flying balls, hummingbirds) would be viable candidates for pixel shift shots.
> 
> Yes, pixel shift would be a great addition to the camera for landscapes, but unfortunately it's unlikely to add any benefit to sports shooting, and so it would not satisfy the sports shooters that purchased the camera for fast action. Unless Canon has figured out a way to do pixel shift that overcomes the limitations of pixel shift as implemented by other brands. This would be a great surprise!


A high frame rate though in combination with IBIS can make pixel shift possible at least with (almost) still subjects and that would be a dream for portrait or product shooters. 

I wonder if Canon will also use that high frame rate for a great handheld HDR. At my DSLR I only have exposure bracketing that takes the same image three (or five or seven) times with different shutter speeds. That is quite a waste though. If you have already caught the light for the shortest exposure, you could reuse that light and add some more to get a longer exposure and so on, That works even better if IBIS and a fast frame rate make sure that the framing does not change between the shots. 

What I would really like to see in future is the ability to program a few different camera settings and then I press the shutter once and the camera uses its high frame rate to take all those shots in a fraction of a second without even making any sound, because it uses electronic shutter. For example take the same photo at ISO 100, 200, 400, 800 and 1600 (of course with the right shutter speed for every ISO value) with a single click on a shutter. So instead of using your burst mode to find the right frame, you use it to find the right ISO, f-stop or whatever. That would save me a lot of time. With my skyscraper shots, I often do the same shots it ISO 400 and ISO 100 for example. The ISO 400 is the safe bet and the ISO 100 shot may look blurry sometimes, but sometimes it is perfectly sharp. How great would it be to take those shots with a single press on the button? There are often situations when you don't have the time to try different settings. A helicopter flight for example. The firmware could easily make my wish possible even with existing cameras.


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## FrenchFry (Sep 13, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> The firmware could easily make my wish possible even with existing cameras.



Indeed! One of the most exciting parts of the announcement tomorrow for R5/R6 owners could be that new improvements from the R3 are arriving via firmware! (Just making these up, but adjustable FPS in silent shutter, adding a shutter sound to silent shutter, and updated AF algorithms could all be options for this.)


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## SteveC (Sep 13, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Laws of gravity would mean that all types of rock will drop at the same rate. Terminal velocity will be affected by air resistance and of course Eistein's relativity of space/time distorts gravity as well.



General relativity does indeed alter our understanding of gravity but as it turns out it actually _explains_ why everything drops at the same rate (air resistance aside). So it's not going to modify _that._


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## degos (Sep 13, 2021)

Chig said:


> All the improvements in processing and transfer speeds apply to all the photographers so if your camera has bigger files you're just slowing yourself down for zero benefit.



If speed-to-publishing is critical then you'll be outputting medium-JPEG and not even saving the RAW. So a high resolution sensor really doesn't have any downside.


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## degos (Sep 13, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yet somehow, after the 1D X at 18 MP came the 1D X II at 20 MP and then the 1D X III at 20 MP. Were those pros duped? I think it’s far more likely that the target market —sports photographers and photojournalists— wants more moderate resolution. For those pros needing more, there is the 5-series.



Not duped, no. Just disappointed.

My point was that the 1D line was distinguished by comparitively high pixel density, which contradicts the subsequent retrospective fora narrative that pros didn't need that. Notably Canon themselves never said that...


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## Nemorino (Sep 13, 2021)

stochasticmotions said:


> Eye autofocus is going to be an interesting feature to see in these new generation cameras. I still have my ELAN 7NE and it would be fun to compare to it.


With high number of focus points and the tracking features, I expect it to be very useful.
I am interested if Canon can keep it's promise I quoted earlier in this thread. 
"...makes you feel like the camera is reading your mind".


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## RichardSM (Sep 13, 2021)

While I'm a Canon user for many years and I would love to move up this camera its price is out of my range, I own two Canons cameras now I will stick to them for now, It sure looks to be a beauty and I suppose it will meet the needs of many folks.


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## stochasticmotions (Sep 13, 2021)

Nemorino said:


> With high number of focus points and the tracking features, I expect it to be very useful.
> I am interested if Canon can keep it's promise I quoted earlier in this thread.
> "...makes you feel like the camera is reading your mind".


With about 20 years between these technologies I think anyone who used the original is going to be impressed with the difference. The question is will it be something that we find we use regularly or is it just a cool thing that you play with when you get the camera and rarely use afterwards. I'm hopeful, but tracking a pupil that tends to move around as you are composing the shot, checking settings and histograms as well as looking at the main subject may be a difficult thing to make work well for anything but static subjects. I definitely want to see it in action.


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## BurningPlatform (Sep 13, 2021)

Maybe the R3 actually has a 96 Mp Quad Bayer sensor? So far we have seen only results from the pixel-binned 24 Mp mode. The possibility for 96 M photos would really be the mentioned "trick". But well, as it is not practical to have Quad Bayer with an effective AA filter, this is not probable, Moiré would be a huge problem. Maybe the R1 will have that, though, and does some clever tricks to overcome Moiré in the pixel binned lower resolution file. Or even be able to do real time high quality time sampling.


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 13, 2021)

That eye controlled autofocus would mean that on all my photos the woman's breasts would be in focus and not her face.


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## JDavis (Sep 13, 2021)

canonmike said:


> It appears, jDavis, that you have a great deal of anger towards Canon, for whatever reason and it appears they have really gotten under your skin. You might want to stay off of social media for awhile, at least until the dust settles on the R3 announcement. BTW, I never mentioned anything about Chip shortages.


Oh, you mean the R3 announcement coming tomorrow? The same day Apple announce their new iPhones? Thats just proves how inept Canon has become. What company in their right mind announces anything the same day Apple announces their new iPhones? lol. Even the camera websites, YouTube channels and blogs will be covering the new photo and video features on the new iPhones. The R3 will get ZERO coverage tomorrow.


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## JDavis (Sep 13, 2021)

JohnC said:


> Seems like I have seen this prophecy before….yet Canon is still doing well.


That was beck before Canon got in the $6k camera and $3k lens MILC game. They already lost me as a loyal 17 year customer a few weeks back. Sold my R6, RP and lenses. I was tired of their absurdly priced cameras and lenses and their refusal to allow 3rd party lens makers like Sigma and Tamron to come in and make affordable glass you don't have to mortgage your home to get. I now have plenty of great choices to cover any focal length at multiple price points on Sony's E mount, with some great new releases coming up from Sigma and Tamron that the RF mount will never see.


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## AEWest (Sep 13, 2021)

Seems lik


JDavis said:


> That was beck before Canon got in the $6k camera and $3k lens MILC game. They already lost me as a loyal 17 year customer a few weeks back. Sold my R6, RP and lenses. I was tired of their absurdly priced cameras and lenses and their refusal to allow 3rd party lens makers like Sigma and Tamron to come in and make affordable glass you don't have to mortgage your home to get. I now have plenty of great choices to cover any focal length at multiple price points on Sony's E mount, with some great new releases coming up from Sigma and Tamron that the RF mount will never see.


Seems like you've solved all of your problems.


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## JDavis (Sep 13, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Ever think that Canon believes that their adapted EF lens range is the middle ground?
> Almost all the RF lens range expand the features from their EF counterparts so could be considered a step above the EF version in the market


Right. Because paying $4k-$6k for a brand new mirrorless camera and having to spend another $100 on an adapter (which you can't even buy right now) and putting on a 20 year old lens designed for film cameras is sure appealing isn't it?


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## JohnC (Sep 13, 2021)

JDavis said:


> That was beck before Canon got in the $6k camera and $3k lens MILC game. They already lost me as a loyal 17 year customer a few weeks back. Sold my R6, RP and lenses. I was tired of their absurdly priced cameras and lenses and their refusal to allow 3rd party lens makers like Sigma and Tamron to come in and make affordable glass you don't have to mortgage your home to get. I now have plenty of great choices to cover any focal length at multiple price points on Sony's E mount, with some great new releases coming up from Sigma and Tamron that the RF mount will never see.


Yet I personally own more RF lenses (already) than I ever did EF lenses even though I’ve used Canon my whole life. 

I’m sorry but what YOU believe or what works for YOU personally doesn’t translate into what works for everyone, so while you rationale might justify your own position it is meaningless for anyone else outside the group of one.


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## SteveC (Sep 13, 2021)

JDavis said:


> .... I now have plenty of great choices to cover any focal length at multiple price points on Sony's E mount, with some great new releases coming up from Sigma and Tamron that the RF mount will never see.


I knew this was going to get around to some variation of "gonna go buy a Sony" eventually. In this case it's the "I already did so but I'm going to go on a Canon forum anyway" variant.


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 13, 2021)

Lenses that only work on the RF mount would be a big downside for me, because my backup camera, that I would take on every journey, would still be an EF camera and I can't take RF lenses AND EF lenses on economy class flight that only allows 23+6 kilos of luggage. I am already restricted to only fly to warm destinations, because for a cold destination those luggage restrictions would be too tight.


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## GoldWing (Sep 13, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> You know nothing, Goldwing Snow.





sanj said:


> Wait. Stop. A 'PRO' does not need 1dx or such. A huge amount of 'pro' work is headshots, product shots, advertising, medical, photos for website etc etc etc. The cameras you think a PRO needs is misguided. Just because a camera is a flagship does not make it the choice of 'pro' who need to look at ROI, mpx etc. R1/3 is for high-end photojournalists, wildlife and sports shooters. These cameras are designed for them, as for them not missing a shot is paramount.


As a professional sports photographer and manager with one of the largest sports agencies in the world, I disagree with your statement


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## FrenchFry (Sep 13, 2021)

stochasticmotions said:


> With about 20 years between these technologies I think anyone who used the original is going to be impressed with the difference. The question is will it be something that we find we use regularly or is it just a cool thing that you play with when you get the camera and rarely use afterwards. I'm hopeful, but tracking a pupil that tends to move around as you are composing the shot, checking settings and histograms as well as looking at the main subject may be a difficult thing to make work well for anything but static subjects. I definitely want to see it in action.


According to the leaked press release, the feature is more about setting the initial focus point, but does not continue to follow your eye after the initial acquisition of focus. After the initial focus point is set, tracking works as well (or poorly) as it did before. At least that's what it sounds like:

"Featuring a new 5.76-million-dot and 120fps blackout-free1 Electronic Viewfinder, the EOS R3 camera will provide photographers with the ability to* select the initial area for AF tracking* by simply looking directly at the viewfinder location where they want to begin AF. With Eye input AF2 and Servo AF activated, the camera will focus on and track moving subjects at that location in the frame. When Face Detect + Tracking is active, the camera will continue to follow moving subjects around the entire active AF area."

1 Blackout(s) may occur in some cases; such as when the built-in memory is full or when the flash battery is fully recharged after the battery ran out during continuous shooting.

2 Effectiveness varies depending on the subject. In some cases, dogs, cats or birds may not be detected, while some animals other than dogs, cats or birds may be detected.









Here Is The Canon EOS R3 Press Release (it's 24MP, $5999, 6k, blackout-free EVF)


A few ours to go but thanks to an anonymous tipster we have the Canon EOS R3 press release for the the one that's born to rule




www.canonwatch.com


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## FrenchFry (Sep 13, 2021)

BurningPlatform said:


> Maybe the R3 actually has a 96 Mp Quad Bayer sensor? So far we have seen only results from the pixel-binned 24 Mp mode. The possibility for 96 M photos would really be the mentioned "trick". But well, as it is not practical to have Quad Bayer with an effective AA filter, this is not probable, Moiré would be a huge problem. Maybe the R1 will have that, though, and does some clever tricks to overcome Moiré in the pixel binned lower resolution file. Or even be able to do real time high quality time sampling.


Unfortunately, there has still been no mention of anything that would pass for a resolution trick in the press release, so we may never know what the trick was supposed to be. 








Here Is The Canon EOS R3 Press Release (it's 24MP, $5999, 6k, blackout-free EVF)


A few ours to go but thanks to an anonymous tipster we have the Canon EOS R3 press release for the the one that's born to rule




www.canonwatch.com


----------



## FrenchFry (Sep 13, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> That eye controlled autofocus would mean that on all my photos the woman's breasts would be in focus and not her face.


Creepy and gross.


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 13, 2021)

So the camera will give us 6K RAW video and not just 4K downsampled from 6K? That is the first time I read that news. 6K RAW means that there is some room for zooming and cropping a 4K video out of the 6K.


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## FrenchFry (Sep 13, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> So the camera will give us 6K RAW video and not just 4K downsampled from 6K? That is the first time I read that news. 6K RAW means that there is some room for zooming and cropping a 4K video out of the 6K.


From the leaked news release:
"The EOS R3 camera doesn’t just capture spectacular still images, it also packs impressive video specs as well. The camera is capable of shooting 6K 60p RAW and 4K 120p 10-bit uncropped video with Canon Log 3 support, in addition to the possibility for oversampled 4K and RAW movie internal recording. Canon Log 3, which is frequently used in cinema production, helps to reduce the possibility of highlight blowouts. What’s more, the features such as industry standard BT.709, BT.2020 color gamuts, and cinema gamut help to maintain color and tonal consistency. Coordinated 5-axis IBIS helps to correct operator motion or shaking providing dependent video capturing even when using a lens without built-in Optical IS."








Here Is The Canon EOS R3 Press Release (it's 24MP, $5999, 6k, blackout-free EVF)


A few ours to go but thanks to an anonymous tipster we have the Canon EOS R3 press release for the the one that's born to rule




www.canonwatch.com


----------



## Skyscraperfan (Sep 13, 2021)

Yes, that was the press release where I first read about the 6K. I did not expect that they really give us 6K RAW, as I did not know that 6K exists as a standard. I expected 4K downsampled from 6K and that was what most video shooters expected. 

6K really is a great compromise between 4K and 6K. So you can choose if you want full frame 4K, APS-C 4K or anything in between. 6K also gives you the option of digital image stabilization in post without sacrifizing sharpness at 4K.


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## David - Sydney (Sep 13, 2021)

JDavis said:


> Right. Because paying $4k-$6k for a brand new mirrorless camera and having to spend another $100 on an adapter (which you can't even buy right now) and putting on a 20 year old lens designed for film cameras is sure appealing isn't it?


They are absolutely appealing! Not sure where your difficulty is. Canon has made the transition easy for those with existing glass (as I had and still have some). 
Some lenses are old but a lot are younger then 20 years old especially for the alternatives to current RF lenses.
More EF lenses are available on the second hand market at an even cheaper price as well with people moving to RF.
If you don't like the adapter then pretend that it is welded on and have one for each EF lens. Yes, they can be hard to find in some markets but you asked for a mid range option and then complain that the mid range option is either an old design or that you have to spend USD100 for an adapter. 
Using the ND/CPL adapter actually makes the filters cheaper eg for the 11-24mm/4 or EF8-15mm lens than for the external options.
I won't be getting the RF100mm macro or the RF14-35mm/4 lens because the adapted EF version are a great price and are great quality. 
It will be a long time before the EF8-15mm/4 is available in RF so my second hand version is perfect for the limited times I use it.


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 13, 2021)

The EF 85mm f/1.4 still seems like a better option than the RF 85mm f/1.2, because it is half the price and it is even stabilized without IBIS, That's important for people who have an RP or and EF camera without IBIS as a backup. Of course if money is not an problem, your backup camera might also have IBIS and you might also want to pay twice the price for f/1.2 instead of f/1.4.


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## JohnC (Sep 13, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> They are absolutely appealing! Not sure where your difficulty is. Canon has made the transition easy for those with existing glass (as I had and still have some).
> Some lenses are old but a lot are younger then 20 years old especially for the alternatives to current RF lenses.
> More EF lenses are available on the second hand market at an even cheaper price as well with people moving to RF.
> If you don't like the adapter then pretend that it is welded on and have one for each EF lens. Yes, they can be hard to find in some markets but you asked for a mid range option and then complain that the mid range option is either an old design or that you have to spend USD100 for an adapter.
> ...


I originally got a vello adapter while waiting for the canon. It works just fine.


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## stochasticmotions (Sep 13, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> According to the leaked press release, the feature is more about setting the initial focus point, but does not continue to follow your eye after the initial acquisition of focus. After the initial focus point is set, tracking works as well (or poorly) as it did before. At least that's what it sounds like:
> 
> "Featuring a new 5.76-million-dot and 120fps blackout-free1 Electronic Viewfinder, the EOS R3 camera will provide photographers with the ability to* select the initial area for AF tracking* by simply looking directly at the viewfinder location where they want to begin AF. With Eye input AF2 and Servo AF activated, the camera will focus on and track moving subjects at that location in the frame. When Face Detect + Tracking is active, the camera will continue to follow moving subjects around the entire active AF area."
> 
> ...


Well, that sounds actually quite useful. Especially since on the R5 I can't choose a single point or group of points (other than center) for object tracking like I can on the A7RIV. This might be just as good or better if it works well since then I don't have to move a point around to tell it what to track when animals and birds are deep in a tree or bush. I would still like for the R5 to update so that I can use any of the modes with the object tracking since it will never have this feature.


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## JDavis (Sep 14, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> They are absolutely appealing! Not sure where your difficulty is. Canon has made the transition easy for those with existing glass (as I had and still have some).
> Some lenses are old but a lot are younger then 20 years old especially for the alternatives to current RF lenses.
> More EF lenses are available on the second hand market at an even cheaper price as well with people moving to RF.
> If you don't like the adapter then pretend that it is welded on and have one for each EF lens. Yes, they can be hard to find in some markets but you asked for a mid range option and then complain that the mid range option is either an old design or that you have to spend USD100 for an adapter.
> ...


Seriously? Look at how the old EF lenses compare to newer lenses made for mirrorless, its not even close. Most are absolutely terrible. We just never noticed it shooting 12 megapixel DSLRs back in the day. Cant get away with that on 30-45 megapixel cameras with current sensors. Oh yea, just go grab an EF adapter for each of my EF lenses like they are free and growing on trees. You're joking right? These things have been out of stock for EIGHT MONTHS and when they do get stock, they are gone within minutes. You really think Canon can't produce these things and keep them in stock? Of course they can, they don't want to though, because they want you to spend big bucks on their absurdly priced RF lenses. Once again, it all goes back to Canon's greed.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 14, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> As a professional sports photographer and manager with one of the largest sports agencies in the world, I disagree with your statement


I’ll rephrase. You know many things, but none of them are relevant to this discussion.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 14, 2021)

JDavis said:


> That was beck before Canon got in the $6k camera and $3k lens MILC game. They already lost me as a loyal 17 year customer a few weeks back. Sold my R6, RP and lenses. I was tired of their absurdly priced cameras and lenses and their refusal to allow 3rd party lens makers like Sigma and Tamron to come in and make affordable glass you don't have to mortgage your home to get. I now have plenty of great choices to cover any focal length at multiple price points on Sony's E mount, with some great new releases coming up from Sigma and Tamron that the RF mount will never see.


So why are you here? Is your time so worthless that you can spend it being an annoying troll?


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## JDavis (Sep 14, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> So why are you here? Is your time so worthless that you can spend it being an annoying troll?


Because I wanted to see the R3 announcement and get a chuckle at its absurd $6k price.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 14, 2021)

JDavis said:


> Because I wanted to see the R3 announcement and get a chuckle at its absurd $6k price.


And that took a dozen trolling posts over two days? You must be really slow at absorbing new information. Sad.


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## David - Sydney (Sep 14, 2021)

JDavis said:


> Seriously? Look at how the old EF lenses compare to newer lenses made for mirrorless, its not even close. Most are absolutely terrible. We just never noticed it shooting 12 megapixel DSLRs back in the day. Cant get away with that on 30-45 megapixel cameras with current sensors. Oh yea, just go grab an EF adapter for each of my EF lenses like they are free and growing on trees. You're joking right? These things have been out of stock for EIGHT MONTHS and when they do get stock, they are gone within minutes. You really think Canon can't produce these things and keep them in stock? Of course they can, they don't want to though, because they want you to spend big bucks on their absurdly priced RF lenses. Once again, it all goes back to Canon's greed.


I'm really not sure why you are participating in the group? I can't see how you are adding any value. There are so many holes in your point of view that it isn't worth refuting them all individually.
Canon has official channels for feedback and it would be better use of your time to use them rather than this forum


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## vegas (Sep 14, 2021)

Just give me low noise at high ISO.
1DXii was great. R5 noisy even at 8000.


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## Maximilian (Sep 14, 2021)

7.299,- € is the first price I could find in Germany yet.








CANON Eos R3 bei Digitfoto.de


spiegellose Profi-Vollformatkamera - für prof. Sport-Fotografie und Filmen - Stacked BSI CMOS-Sensor, DIGIC X Prozessor



www.digitfoto.de





We'll have to wait, if this will be confirmed by other stores or not.

5.999,- € price in Germany at several stores.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 15, 2021)

navastronia said:


> They really should have called this the R1.
> 
> Why not? Modest bump in resolution over the 1DXIII, same ergonomics, same weather sealing. They could even come up with some marketing reason to excuse the mismatched card slots.
> 
> At the end of the day, it's too expensive to not be the flagship



The vast majority of 1-series bodies with two card slots have had mismatched slots. Only the 1 D X and the 1D X Mark III had two matching card slots. The 1D X Mark II, 1D Mark IV, 1Ds Mark III, 1D Mark III, 1Ds Mark II etc, all had disparate card slots.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 15, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> All I really wanted is really an R6 in a large and heavy 1D X Mark III form factor and at least one non-SD memory card, as I hate SD cards. The R6 with the battery grip that does not really align well looks very ugly. At the moment I do not really see many advantages of the R3 over the R6. At least not any that would justify a €3,600 higher price.
> 
> If I am not mistaken, the R5 already was by far the most expensive non-flagship camera so far by Canon. In the DSLR world the most expensive not flagship model (5D Mark IV) was about €4,000 when it came out. Now over €6,000 for a non-flaship camera. Many will pay that price, bit it is quite a shocking rise.



I don't know about Europe, but here in the U.S. the 5Ds R was about $400 more at introduction than the 5D mark IV was a couple of years later, and the same $3,899 as the R5. Seems like the 5Ds was $3,599 at intro.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 15, 2021)

jam05 said:


> Flagship camera price for a 24mp non flagship device thats merely a backup to the R5? At least the Sony A1 was released at 50mp even with EVF blackouts. The R5 is fast enough to do what is needed for sporting events. Jeff Cable proved that in Tokyo.



Neil Leifer and Walter Ioss, Jr. proved 2 fps was enough back in the 1960s and 1970s.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 15, 2021)

GMCPhotographics said:


> I can see a lot of doctors, IT professionals, surgeons, lawyers etc buying this camera. Not a lot of photographers...it's a great camera for the uber-wealthy.



These days there seem to be a lot more doctors, IT administrators, lawyers, etc. buying cameras than there are working photographers (period).


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## Michael Clark (Sep 15, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I agree with most of your argument, but I’m not sure about Canon wanting their ‘second-string’ R3 representing them on the sidelines of major events once the R1 is their flagship.



They didn't seem to have much of problem with it when the 1D Mark IV was selling for $5k when the 1Ds Mark III was going for $7.5K. Just as long as they're hooked to big white lenses Canon is happy.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 15, 2021)

unfocused said:


> Yeah, I have no clue (admitting that all we do here is guess anyway).
> 
> What confuses me would be if the R1 is going to follow the traditional path of the 1 series, it should have a conservative resolution. But, would they really offer two gripped bodies with a 24mp and say a 30 mp sensor? Doesn't seem likely to me. But, if they go with 45 or more mp, they are breaking with tradition and I'm not sure that's what the traditional audience would want (if we are to believe Canon's longstanding policy of making their flagship camera lower resolution to accommodate those working under deadlines.)
> 
> ...



During the 1Ds era, it was always the highest resolution EOS body and commanded a pretty good price premium over the faster but lower resolution APS-H 1D series. 

The 1Ds Mark II was 16.1 MP at the same time the 5D was 12.8 MP and the APS-H 1D Mark II/IIN was 8.2 MP. The APS-C 20D and 30D were also 8.2 MP.

The 1Ds Mark III (2007) was 21.1 MP and then the 5D Mark II came along a year later also at 21.1 MP. The APS-H 1D Mark III was 10.1 MP and the 1D Mark IV, released halfway through the 1Ds Mark III's tenure, was 16.1 MP. The APS-C 2007 40D was 10.1 MP and the 2008 50D was 16.1 MP.


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## Aussie shooter (Sep 15, 2021)

JDavis said:


> It has nothing to do with chip shortages. Everyone is facing the same chip shortages, yet Canon is the only one raising prices on lenses. It has everything to do with their insane greed, like this stupidly priced $6k camera. Keep it up Canon, you are pricing yourself right out of the market. Sony and Nikon are celebrating right now.


Why is it that every time canon releases a new camera then all of a sudden there aae a few 'I'm new here' members that post like crazy bashing Canon as much as possible? It seems to happen too often to be coincidence.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 15, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> During the 1Ds era, it was always the highest resolution EOS body and commanded a pretty good price premium over the faster but lower resolution APS-H 1D series.
> 
> The 1Ds Mark II was 16.1 MP at the same time the 5D was 12.8 MP and the APS-H 1D Mark II/IIN was 8.2 MP. The APS-C 20D and 30D were also 8.2 MP.
> 
> The 1Ds Mark III (2007) was 21.1 MP and then the 5D Mark II came along a year later also at 21.1 MP. The APS-H 1D Mark III was 10.1 MP and the 1D Mark IV, released halfway through the 1Ds Mark III's tenure, was 16.1 MP. The APS-C 2007 40D was 10.1 MP and the 2008 50D was 16.1 MP.


That was then. This is now, when the 5-series has 45-50 MP sensors (and the 5D had an ‘s’ version after the dropped that from the 1-series).


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 15, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> They didn't seem to have much of problem with it when the 1D Mark IV was selling for $5k when the 1Ds Mark III was going for $7.5K. Just as long as they're hooked to big white lenses Canon is happy.


Both were 1-series cameras. The R3 isn’t.


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## unfocused (Sep 15, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> During the 1Ds era, it was always the highest resolution EOS body and commanded a pretty good price premium over the faster but lower resolution APS-H 1D series.
> 
> The 1Ds Mark II was 16.1 MP at the same time the 5D was 12.8 MP and the APS-H 1D Mark II/IIN was 8.2 MP. The APS-C 20D and 30D were also 8.2 MP.
> 
> The 1Ds Mark III (2007) was 21.1 MP and then the 5D Mark II came along a year later also at 21.1 MP. The APS-H 1D Mark III was 10.1 MP and the 1D Mark IV, released halfway through the 1Ds Mark III's tenure, was 16.1 MP. The APS-C 2007 40D was 10.1 MP and the 2008 50D was 16.1 MP.


I'm not sure the pre-1Dx releases have much relevance today. Both the market and technology have changed so radically. In those days, there were actual newspapers and magazines and many actually had photography staffs. The cost of sensors alone constituted a much more significant portion of the total camera cost, thus the advantages of APS-H for Canon. Things are so radically different today, it would be like predicting a new Ford vehicle based on their Model A.


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## JohnC (Sep 15, 2021)

unfocused said:


> I'm not sure the pre-1Dx releases have much relevance today. Both the market and technology have changed so radically. In those days, there were actual newspapers and magazines and many actually had photography staffs. The cost of sensors alone constituted a much more significant portion of the total camera cost, thus the advantages of APS-H for Canon. Things are so radically different today, it would be like predicting a new Ford vehicle based on their Model A.


This is so true. I see a lot of complaints regarding the rising costs of these image taking computers. The things is the collectively we demand higher and higher performance, then question the prices that come with that performance. The technology doesn't fall off trees, it has to be developed. There is a significant cost associated with that development.


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## Czardoom (Sep 15, 2021)

Aussie shooter said:


> Why is it that every time canon releases a new camera then all of a sudden there aae a few 'I'm new here' members that post like crazy bashing Canon as much as possible? It seems to happen too often to be coincidence.


It is not a coincidence. The Sony troll network is clearly well organized and very vocal. Not sure what will happen with the R3, but many previous Canon releases were met within a day or two with numerous negative reviews (both written and YouTube videos) that often used the same or very similar language and sometimes repeated the same incorrect information.


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## Czardoom (Sep 15, 2021)

jam05 said:


> Flagship camera price for a 24mp non flagship device thats merely a backup to the R5? At least the Sony A1 was released at 50mp even with EVF blackouts. The R5 is fast enough to do what is needed for sporting events. Jeff Cable proved that in Tokyo.


If a sports photographer is using the R5 as the main camera and the R3 as the backup, they would be idiots...so it's not going to happen. So when you say "merely a backup" - you are making what is almost certainly an incorrect assumption.

Jeff Cable used the R3 for most of his shots at the Olympics, by the way.


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## canonmike (Sep 15, 2021)

Czardoom said:


> It is not a coincidence. The Sony troll network is clearly well organized and very vocal. Not sure what will happen with the R3, but many previous Canon releases were met within a day or two with numerous negative reviews (both written and YouTube videos) that often used the same or very similar language and sometimes repeated the same incorrect information.


So true. Just goes to show you that, if you repeat invalid info over and over again and often enough, some people begin to not only believe it but then pass it on as truth and fact. Sometimes, it pays to be a doubting Thomas, realizing that just because someone says something is so, doesn't make it so......


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 16, 2021)

canonmike said:


> Just goes to show you that, if you repeat invalid info over and over again and often enough, some people begin to not only believe it but then pass it on as truth and fact.


Repetition can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.

I heard that from some old guy in a cloak.


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## canonmike (Sep 16, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Repetition can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
> 
> I heard that from some old guy in a cloak.





neuroanatomist said:


> I heard that from some old guy in a cloak.


Yes, as I get older, I can only hope that my age doesn't cloud my otherwise good judgment, the voice of reason and my ability to think things through clearly before putting my foot in my mouth by allowing false innuendos to come out of it.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 16, 2021)

canonmike said:


> Yes, as I get older, I can only hope that my age doesn't cloud my otherwise good judgment, the voice of reason and my ability to think things through clearly before putting my foot in my mouth by allowing false innuendos to come out of it.


Seems like I offended you…apologies if so, that wasn’t my intent. Perhaps the ‘old guy in the cloak’ reference wasn’t obvious to you, and I did paraphrase Obi-Wan a bit…


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## JohnC (Sep 16, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Seems like I offended you…apologies if so, that wasn’t my intent. Perhaps the ‘old guy in the cloak’ reference wasn’t obvious to you, and I did paraphrase Obi-Wan a bit…


FWIW... I did pick up on the reference although I couldn't recall what old guy in a cloak actually said it. I was considering Gandalf as well.


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## canonmike (Sep 16, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Seems like I offended you…apologies if so, that wasn’t my intent. Perhaps the ‘old guy in the cloak’ reference wasn’t obvious to you, and I did paraphrase Obi-Wan a bit…


LOL!! No offense taken nor did I think there was any insult intended, hidden or otherwise. Just one of those coincidental occasions, you know, where one comment leads into another thought process and so, these old men's minds tend to wander off topic. You'll get there one day, it's inevitable. See what you have to look forward to??


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## AlanF (Sep 16, 2021)

canonmike said:


> LOL!! No offense taken nor did I think there was any insult intended, hidden or otherwise. Just one of those coincidental occasions, you know, where one comment leads into another thought process and so, these old men's minds tend to wander off topic. You'll get there one day, it's inevitable. See what you have to look forward to??


Don't take any notice of these young whippersnappers - they aren't even old enough to be POTUS.


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## randym77 (Sep 17, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> These days there seem to be a lot more doctors, IT administrators, lawyers, etc. buying cameras than there are working photographers (period).



I think you're right. 

I'm not a pro photographer, or a doctor, or a lawyer. I'm not poor, but I'm far from wealthy. But I will probably buy this camera. 

Camera gear is what I spend my money on. I drive a 15 year old car. I don't go to the movies, eat out, or subscribe to streaming services. (Just not interested.) Camera stuff, I am interested in.

I'll sell some of my old camera gear to buy this camera. If I don't like it, or if I want to buy the R1 when it appears, I'll sell it. 

I'm not devoted to Canon. I've used all kinds of different brands. I really wanted to like Sony, but I just couldn't. The ergonomics are horrible. I wasn't pleased with the results, either. It was fantastic at autofocusing on birds in flight. But I found the colors very flat looking, and it struggled to focus on a bird partly hidden in brush. My Canons had no problem locking on in that situation. I tried all kinds of different settings, but nothing really helped.

Yesterday, I mailed my Sony A9, teleconverter, and Sony FE 100-400mm to KEH. I'll use the money toward an R3.


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## SteveC (Sep 17, 2021)

randym77 said:


> I think you're right.
> 
> I'm not a pro photographer, or a doctor, or a lawyer. I'm not poor, but I'm far from wealthy. But I will probably buy this camera.
> 
> ...



Piker! My car is 26 years old.

This isn't my first hobby by any means (I'm satisfied with my R5, and probably will be for years). My first hobby is FAR more expensive, and I know what it's like to eat Ramen and packing peanuts to help manage a purchase.


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## stevelee (Sep 17, 2021)

SteveC said:


> Piker! My car is 26 years old.
> 
> This isn't my first hobby by any means (I'm satisfied with my R5, and probably will be for years). My first hobby is FAR more expensive, and I know what it's like to eat Ramen and packing peanuts to help manage a purchase.


I kept my 3 previous cars an average of 10 years. In December , 2019, I needed to get new tires before I could get my car inspected. I decided that mostly for fun I would shop around a bit for a car. I’d either buy one or buy tires for my old car, that still had years of life left. There were a couple of good arguments for a new car. The most important one was that new cars all had backup cameras, and I could see that and other safety features becoming more important as I aged. No more than I was driving, I knew the car should last longer than I was likely to, or at least until I quit driving one way or another. I found a car I really liked that was more than twice as expensive as any car I had bought before. (Oddly, the payments are not that much higher than those for my previous car had been, and they just disappear from my secondary checking account, and I don’t notice them.)

I don’t normally take long driving trips anyway, since an Amtrak station is nearby, and a major airport hub is just 25 miles away. But if I had known that everything was going to shut down in a couple months, I probably would have just bought the tires. Still, I am enjoying the car, even though I have managed to drive it just 5,000 miles. And the camera and sensors all around help keep me from crashing into things.

Since retirement, I guess travel has been my most expensive hobby until last year, and photography would be second. But as I have discussed elsewhere here, I haven’t really come up with a photo purchase that would make enough difference to my photography for me to bother with.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 21, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> That was then. This is now, when the 5-series has 45-50 MP sensors (and the 5D had an ‘s’ version after the dropped that from the 1-series).



And now will very likely be "then" again in the short-term future.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 21, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Both were 1-series cameras. The R3 isn’t.



They won't care as long as the lenses being used with it at high profile events are still big and white.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 21, 2021)

unfocused said:


> I'm not sure the pre-1Dx releases have much relevance today. Both the market and technology have changed so radically. In those days, there were actual newspapers and magazines and many actually had photography staffs. The cost of sensors alone constituted a much more significant portion of the total camera cost, thus the advantages of APS-H for Canon. Things are so radically different today, it would be like predicting a new Ford vehicle based on their Model A.



The Model A? The model A is the automotive equivalent of this camera. Both were introduced in 1903.






The 1D and 1Ds series bodies were current bodies (1Ds Mark III and 1D Mark IV) less than ten years ago.

So let's look at a closer parallel between discontinued cars and discontinued cameras:

Honda discontinued the Acura Integra after the 2006 model year. Honda is gong to bring back the Acura Integra in 2022. Canon, like Honda, is a Japanese company.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 21, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> And now will very likely be "then" again in the short-term future.


In a year or two (or three), one of us can say, “I told you so.”


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## Michael Clark (Sep 21, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> In a year or two (or three), one of us can say, “I told you so.”



Or maybe we'll both be partly right or totally wrong?


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## Michael Clark (Sep 21, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> 1D X - 2012
> 1D X II - 2016
> 1D X III - 2020
> 
> That suggests 2024 for the next 1-series body.



That was then. This is now.

The disruption of the global pandemic and the chip factory burning to the ground both coinciding with Canon's transition from DSLR to MILC for their top tier products can not be ignored. These are not normal times.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 21, 2021)

Talys said:


> I would be happy to be proven wrong, but I suspect the flagship price will be higher than the current price of a 1DX3.
> 
> Even at "just" $7500, this would make the R3 80% of the cost of an R1
> 
> I truly don't know how price-sensitive people or companies who are in the market for a R1 are.



Would it make you feel any better if you knew the price of the R1 was going to be in the $8500-9000 range? Then the R3 is only 67% of the R1 price.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 21, 2021)

JDavis said:


> Why is everyone talking about the A1? Thats Sony's flagship, this is not Canon's flagship. This competes with the a9 II, which is only $4,500 and now looks like a steal next to this for an absurd $6k. As usual, Canon's greed gets the best of them and they wildly overprice an RF product. That means you are looking at around $8k if they ever produce that R1. These ridiculous prices, plus the fact that they are keeping their RF mount closed to 3rd party, are the reasons I had enough after 17 years and switched to Sony. I now have plenty of choices for lenses in all focal lengths and at all price points. Canon is the new Leica, only the rich can afford their $6k cameras and $3k lenses, except Canon is not nearly as good or original as Leica.



Add a grip and an extra battery to the α1 and you're north of $5K USD, though, and you still don't have the robustness of the Canon 1-Series. (Yes, the R3 is not a 1-Series body, but Canon has said it will have the same build quality and weather resistance that the 1D X Mark III has.)


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## Michael Clark (Sep 21, 2021)

JDavis said:


> Seriously? Look at how the old EF lenses compare to newer lenses made for mirrorless, its not even close. Most are absolutely terrible. We just never noticed it shooting 12 megapixel DSLRs back in the day. Cant get away with that on 30-45 megapixel cameras with current sensors. Oh yea, just go grab an EF adapter for each of my EF lenses like they are free and growing on trees. You're joking right? These things have been out of stock for EIGHT MONTHS and when they do get stock, they are gone within minutes. You really think Canon can't produce these things and keep them in stock? Of course they can, they don't want to though, because they want you to spend big bucks on their absurdly priced RF lenses. Once again, it all goes back to Canon's greed.



"You still here?"


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## Talys (Sep 21, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> Would it make you feel any better if you knew the price of the R1 was going to be in the $8500-9000 range? Then the R3 is only 67% of the R1 price.


I'm personally indifferent, because I won't be in the market for a gripped camera, either way 

On a philosophical, I'm-not-going-to-buy-it-anyways level, I think the R1 will be pricier than the 1DX3.


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## cayenne (Sep 29, 2021)

bellorusso said:


> I wouldn't be able to afford it even for $4000. But logically, $6000+taxes - way too much. Obviously, Canon is aiming at agencies only. Photographers who pay for their own equipment won't be very happy to spend that much.


Well, don't kid yourself.

There are a LOT of people out there with enough disposable cash to buy this...$6K isn't a lot of money to a lot of people.

I'm not one of them....$6K is a lot for me, but it wouldn't break my household to drop $6K on a camera, I've spend that much before....but I tend to be one of those that doesn't spend much money on trivial crap, I save and save and once or twice a year I drop serious coin on things I want with no guilt at all.

I keep a zero balance on credit cards too, I only spend what I have saved (with the exception of deals giving me 1-2 years interest free, in which case I put the cash I have on hand for the purchase in savings and draw interest on it while paying the expense off.

C


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## cayenne (Sep 29, 2021)

Jack Douglas said:


> This completely new sensor is designed to produce less “rolling shutter” distortion during Electronic Shutter operation and offer continuous Electronic Shutter still-image shooting at speeds up to 30 fps — with full Dual Pixel CMOS AF and auto exposure1.
> 
> Does that imply the same shortcomings of the R5, which incidentally annoy me more often than I prefer? I'm not complaining, I'm just complaining.
> 
> Jack


I'm wondering if the BIG differentiator with the R1 might possible be...global shutter?


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## cayenne (Sep 29, 2021)

Viggo said:


> We have to keep receipts on our gear ready to show the customs, even for old gear, if you can’t prove you didn’t buy it while traveling you can be forced to pay the taxes on retail Norwegian price (again). Luckily it’s not like they have resources to really pick you out and follow through, but it happens.


Wow...amazing.
As a minimun...I'd think it would be Childs play to "create" a receipt that looks official to carry with your for most anything you buy, no?

I mean, is there a law governing how recipes are printed and that it has to have official and special QR codes or other encrypted official markings?

Just for educational discussions of course....and I don't live in Europe.


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