# Using on camera TTL flash while firing manual flash remotely



## brianleighty (May 1, 2015)

Alright, so I've been using the Yongnuo 622 for sometime now. I just shot a wedding last night and ran into problems again with it. The issue is I want to be able to share a manual flash (in this case an alien bee) to bring up the ambient level and then let the ttl on camera flash fill in from there. The issue is even when I've tried doing the trick of setting the group to C and only doing the A:B setting it still jacks up a lot. What I'm looking for is a simple manual flash that also has TTL pass through to the on camera flash. I looked at this list of manual flash triggers:
http://flashhavoc.com/flash-trigger-guide-manual/

and the Commlite Comtrig T320, Ojecoco H-430 / Commlite Comtrig G430, and the Phottix Strato II seem like my only real options. Everyone says the Phottix are the best but still I read reviews of them not lasting very long before they develop cracks. If anyone has a better way of doing this I'm all ears. Just FYI. I shoot with a 5d mark ii which has a flash sync port and a 6d which does not.


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## echelonphoto (Jul 10, 2015)

check out the new 430ex3....now you can have the fill and use the off camera flash how you want....I recommend the Yongnuo 600 rt for off camera....it recyecles faster that the canon unit and is just as reliable *(at least the newer versions are)


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## brianleighty (Jul 27, 2015)

echelonphoto said:


> check out the new 430ex3....now you can have the fill and use the off camera flash how you want....I recommend the Yongnuo 600 rt for off camera....it recyecles faster that the canon unit and is just as reliable *(at least the newer versions are)



How would two flash masters on separate cameras work? Wouldn't they interfere with one another? That's really what I'm going for here.


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## Valvebounce (Jul 27, 2015)

Hi Brian. 
With optical master slave setup there is a choice of 4 separate channels to avoid interference with other users, I would hope, though I don't know, that there would be at least the same option with the radio setup. 
If you wanted both masters to control one slave, you could set the same channel, things would only get confused if you released both shutters simultaneously then you probably wouldn't get the correct exposure on the camera that lost the race for control! ???

Cheers, Graham. 



brianleighty said:


> echelonphoto said:
> 
> 
> > check out the new 430ex3....now you can have the fill and use the off camera flash how you want....I recommend the Yongnuo 600 rt for off camera....it recyecles faster that the canon unit and is just as reliable *(at least the newer versions are)
> ...


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## Ozarker (Jul 28, 2015)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Brian.
> With optical master slave setup there is a choice of 4 separate channels to avoid interference with other users, I would hope, though I don't know, that there would be at least the same option with the radio setup.
> If you wanted both masters to control one slave, you could set the same channel, things would only get confused if you released both shutters simultaneously then you probably wouldn't get the correct exposure on the camera that lost the race for control! ???
> 
> ...



I am late to the flash game, so I have never used the optical feature, only radio. 4 channels in optical mode to keep from interfering with other users? How does that work? When in optical mode does each channel fire a coded beam of light? Like communicating from ship to ship (Like in those old WWII movies)? I honestly do not know. I thought in optical the flash slaves were simply looking for a flash of light to trigger them.

In radio mode there are actually different radio frequency channels to prevent interference with other users. Set all your gear to the same channel no matter how many groups or flashes. Well, up to 15 Canon 600EX-RT in 5 different groups (three per group).

For the OP: I have no idea how your particular on camera flash works or how it interacts with the off camera flash you are using. Hopefully, somebody here can help you. I try and keep everything the same to avoid issues. I'm sure somebody will be able to help though. Good luck!


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## tonyespofoto (Jul 28, 2015)

Besides the fact that you have 3-4 different manufacturers that you are trying to get to work together (always a source of problems), asking for TTL to adjust them all is more than can be accomplished. You've got here 1 manufacturers' camera, another manufacturers' flash, someone else's trigger plus the Alien Bee. But there is a usable work-around. Using a light meter, set the Alien Bee, on manual, to give an overall, unchanging base amount of illumination. Bounce it off the ceiling and try to get an overall even wash of illumination for the entire room. For example, you are at ISO 400, f/2.8, 1/60 shutter speed, camera set to manual. The Alien Bee is putting out enough light for ISO 400, F/2.0, 1/60. Your on-camera flash is set to work around these values. In its exposure calculation, it will never see and will not calculate for the light from the Alien Bee. So, if your camera is set to f/2.8, you will likely need about -1/2 stop exposure compensation for the on-camera flash. If you do not use exposure compensation, your on-camera flash will put out enough light for f/2.8 and will not see or calculate for the light from the Alien Bee, which will result in about +1/2 stop overexposure. If you bounce the on-camera flash, using, for example, a Lumiquest 80/20, the end result will be very attractive, more or less shadowless, even lighting - no raccoon eyes, dark backgrounds or burned up foregrounds. I've successfully used this system, employing a Canon 1DS MkIII, Pocket Wizard TT5 trigger/receiver, Lumedyne remote flash and 580EX with Lumiquest 80/20 on-camera flash.


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## m8547 (Jul 31, 2015)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I am late to the flash game, so I have never used the optical feature, only radio. 4 channels in optical mode to keep from interfering with other users? How does that work? When in optical mode does each channel fire a coded beam of light? Like communicating from ship to ship (Like in those old WWII movies)? I honestly do not know. I thought in optical the flash slaves were simply looking for a flash of light to trigger them.
> 
> In radio mode there are actually different radio frequency channels to prevent interference with other users. Set all your gear to the same channel no matter how many groups or flashes. Well, up to 15 Canon 600EX-RT in 5 different groups (three per group).
> 
> For the OP: I have no idea how your particular on camera flash works or how it interacts with the off camera flash you are using. Hopefully, somebody here can help you. I try and keep everything the same to avoid issues. I'm sure somebody will be able to help though. Good luck!



The optical wireless system sends a series of flashes before the main flash. The channels and groups are probably different timing patterns of pulses of light. That's also how it tells the remote flashes what power to use (since it's TTL I think the camera decides the power).

In my experience it was not very robust triggering with the built-in flash on my T3i on a dark subject (why else would I use a flash if the subject wasn't dark?). Sometimes one of the remote flashes would miss a pulse and not fire, or fire at full power when it was set for something more reasonable. The optical sensors on the remote flashes had to be pointed towards the camera for reliable operation, but my EX270 did not swivel. And the frequent pre-flashes would overheat the flash circuit in my T3i quickly, making me wait for it to cool off when it had plenty of battery power and plenty of time to recharge the capacitor (and that was in 60 degree F weather, so not a hot day). I got much better results with a simple radio trigger and setting the power on each flash manually.


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## Ozarker (Aug 3, 2015)

m8547 said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > I am late to the flash game, so I have never used the optical feature, only radio. 4 channels in optical mode to keep from interfering with other users? How does that work? When in optical mode does each channel fire a coded beam of light? Like communicating from ship to ship (Like in those old WWII movies)? I honestly do not know. I thought in optical the flash slaves were simply looking for a flash of light to trigger them.
> ...



That must be how it works. I've never had to think about it since I've always used the RT feature on the 600EX-RT. Thanks!


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## echelonphoto (Jan 9, 2016)

I have used the phottix stratos for years on my canons to fire my off camera manual flash which keeping a canon 430 ex on the camera for ettl use...works great. On my 6 d I can vary fec almost instantly on the camera menu to vary my on camera fill. Just got the new 430 ex 3 and am now triggering my off camera flash directly from the 430 via a phottix laso receiver...works great and I can also use ttl on the off camera with any canon flash


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## LDS (Jan 9, 2016)

brianleighty said:


> then let the ttl on camera flash fill in from there.



Are you sure it will work? AFAIK fill-in works by taking an ambient light metering before the (pre-)flash is fired - if the AlienBee is not fired when the measurement is taken and/or the metering system doesn't take into account a brief flash light, fill-in won't work automatically. IMHO you would need all the lamps to take part in the TTL system, and set the proper ratios among group, or work out yourself how to merge the light sources and set each lamp, as suggested in another post.


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