# Scratched Sensor



## bjd (Oct 27, 2015)

Hi,
my weekend was slightly ruined on Saturday. Canon does free Cleaning and Checking at a local Wildlife Photo Annual Meeting, and as usual I handed in my 5D MK3 to be cleaned. When I got it back I was told it had not been cleaned as the sensor is scratched. Putting fluid on it could make the damage worse. Apparently its a straight line across parallel to the top edge of the sensor. When asked how that could happen the tech thought some dirt may have been on the curtain. 
I have never cleaned the sensor myself, only Canon has been near it. Does the explanation sound plausible?

I guess the Camera will go to Canon to let them have a look at it. 

Up till now I can't see a problem in my pictures thought.

Cheers Brian


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 28, 2015)

Scratches on the image sensor are more noticeable when shooting in aperture F16 or F22.

To produce a parallel risk to the upper edge, it would have to be something moving sideways, and I do not think the curtain makes such a move. Although the extremely fast speed prevents me to determine the exact direction in which the curtain moves.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 28, 2015)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> To produce a parallel risk to the upper edge, it would have to be something moving sideways, and I do not think the curtain makes such a move. Although the extremely fast speed prevents me to determine the exact direction in which the curtain moves.



It moves 'down' the sensor, and you are correct that 'dirt on the shutter' would not likely produce a scratch parallel to the top edge of the sensor.







@*bjd* try the suggesting of taking a shot at the narrowest aperture possible (shoot a flat, evenly lit, defocused subject like a bright white wall). You can also examine the sensor directly by initiating a manual clean then removing the lens and viewing with a flashlight and magnifying glass (or a loupe if you have one).


----------



## East Wind Photography (Oct 28, 2015)

bjd said:


> Hi,
> my weekend was slightly ruined on Saturday. Canon does free Cleaning and Checking at a local Wildlife Photo Annual Meeting, and as usual I handed in my 5D MK3 to be cleaned. When I got it back I was told it had not been cleaned as the sensor is scratched. Putting fluid on it could make the damage worse. Apparently its a straight line across parallel to the top edge of the sensor. When asked how that could happen the tech thought some dirt may have been on the curtain.
> I have never cleaned the sensor myself, only Canon has been near it. Does the explanation sound plausible?
> 
> ...



Was he sure it was a scratch and not a crack? Could be the low pass filter is cracked. So this will play out in one of three ways. Either you will pay to have the sensor replaced, live with it and use the dust delete feature to minimize impact to your image, or you can send it off to have the low pass filter removed thus extending the life of the camera a bit more with an added "benefit" of not having an anti aliasing filter anymore. Once the filter is removed, you may not want to have the sensor cleaned again as i dont believe there is much more to protect the micro lenses. I could be wrong and might be model dependent.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 28, 2015)

I think your plan to send it to Canon is best. The person doing the cleaning is just examining the sensor for damage before cleaning it, but likely does not know much in depth about causes. Its entirely possible that with better viewing equipment that it will turn out to be minor.


----------



## Aglet (Oct 28, 2015)

bjd said:


> ..Does the explanation sound plausible?



nope, shutter moves vertically, described scratch would have to be made by horizontal motion unless described incorrectly.

Can you see the scratch if you look at it in cleaning mode?

It's typically not that hard to replace the scratched filter assembly, it's not an actual damaged sensor, just the filter stack in front of it. Lots of shops do it, it may cost 2 to 3 hundred $usd


----------



## bjd (Oct 28, 2015)

Hi, thanks for the various answers. Good to know that the shutter moves vertically before I send it in.

The Tech let me look in with his magnifying glass, I couldn't see any scratch.

I'll have a go at a narrow aperture shot see if I can see anything then.

Cheers everyone.


----------



## bjd (Oct 29, 2015)

So this is one of a few narrow aperture shots I took, all look the same. A dusk speck in the lower middle
and what looks like a scratch about half-way between the dust speck and the top left corner.

Also there are about 5-6 very small darkish specks, are they dead cells on the sensor, I assume
they are too small to be dirt on the sensor.

Cheers Brian


----------



## zim (Oct 29, 2015)

All looks like dust and dirt to me, the 'splodge' lower middle is that not more like oil?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 29, 2015)

zim said:


> All looks like dust and dirt to me, the 'splodge' lower middle is that not more like oil?



So I'm not the only one who doesn't see a scratch? I assumed it was iPhone viewing.


----------



## meywd (Oct 29, 2015)

Yeah I don't think it's a scratch, the one on the right is a smudge(oil?) and I guess the one on the left is dirt!


----------



## niels123 (Oct 29, 2015)

The large spots usually come from dust that is on the back of you lens, not from dust on the sensor. Try cleaning the back of you lens with a blower or do some test shots with a different lens to see if the spots disappear.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 29, 2015)

There are far more spots on my screen than on your sensor. It needs a good cleaning.

You can change lenses and try again to see if the large spot is lens dirt. If its still there with a different lens, then its on the sensor. However, its such a huge spot that its likely on the rear of the lens.


----------



## Valvebounce (Oct 29, 2015)

Hi Folks. 
Thanks to all for their knowledge, I'm unable to contribute anything of use to this thread but I am learning from it, you guys rock. 

Cheers, Graham.


----------



## Aglet (Oct 30, 2015)

That doesn't look like what I'd expect for a typical scratch either. Might be a tiny metal shard stuck to the sensor? I've found some of those inside a few lenses over the years, often tiny flakes of solder from internal electronics.

If you can't blow it off or wet-clean it off then you can decide whether it's enough of an issue to deal with replacing the filter stack. 
I.E. What aperture does it start to show up with your longer lenses?
And... you can use a software fix for that in PP but yes, it's an annoyance if it's showing up at larger apertures.


----------



## tpatana (Oct 30, 2015)

Aglet said:


> And... you can use a software fix for that in PP but yes, it's an annoyance if it's showing up at larger apertures.



But you know it's there...


----------



## sanj (Oct 30, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> zim said:
> 
> 
> > All looks like dust and dirt to me, the 'splodge' lower middle is that not more like oil?
> ...



I dont see any scratch either.


----------



## YuengLinger (Oct 30, 2015)

Any chance the Canon rep was cleaning so many cameras that yours got mixed up with somebody who actually did have a scratch?

If I had a cracked filter, I'd be concerned about stuff getting in under that crack over time, but a scratch that doesn't show up in any real life photos wouldn't be worth a trip to CPS if nothing else were wrong. Just me.


----------



## bjd (Oct 30, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> Any chance the Canon rep was cleaning so many cameras that yours got mixed up with somebody who actually did have a scratch?
> 
> If I had a cracked filter, I'd be concerned about stuff getting in under that crack over time, but a scratch that doesn't show up in any real life photos wouldn't be worth a trip to CPS if nothing else were wrong. Just me.



Hi, I went to another event today and just gave it in for cleaning. When I got it back "Scratch on the sensor" was noted. The tech last week had refused to clean the sensor as he feared putting liquid on it could make the problem worse. So, if I do nothing, then I cannot have the sensor wet cleaned. Whether it is a scratch or crack, they could not say.

I'll do some more tests with different lenses tomorrow and compare the results. I think I may try to get an appointment at CPS (about 60 miles away) and take it to them and ask for their opinion what is broke, how it could have happened, and concerning whether it could get worse with time.

I guess I can always get it done if the scratch starts to become visible. Hey, maybe a newer sensor will be better than this >3 year old one........

Attached is a pic showing the approx location of the scratch.

Cheers Brian, 

and thanks for all the competent opinions and suggestions. They are much appreciated.


----------



## turbo1168 (Oct 30, 2015)

Am I wrong in thinking that the sensor data is taken upside down and reversed as the light comes through the lens? If so, a scratch on the top of the sensor would actually show up on the bottom of the image. Not that I can see anything in the picture that you showed.


----------



## bjd (Oct 31, 2015)

turbo1168 said:


> Am I wrong in thinking that the sensor data is taken upside down and reversed as the light comes through the lens? If so, a scratch on the top of the sensor would actually show up on the bottom of the image. Not that I can see anything in the picture that you showed.


Logic says to me the image must be reversed on the sensor, so the mark should be at the bottom of a pcture.

Cheers Brian


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 31, 2015)

Just for orientation clarity, when looking at a picture taken with the camera and comparing it to looking directly at the sensor, the top of the picture is the bottom of the sensor, and the left side of the picture is the left side of the sensor (i.e. flipped vertically but not horizontally).


----------



## tpatana (Oct 31, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Just for orientation clarity, when looking at a picture taken with the camera and comparing it to looking directly at the sensor, the top of the picture is the bottom of the sensor, and the left side of the picture is the left side of the sensor (i.e. flipped vertically but not horizontally).



Left side of the sensor looking from behind the camera, or from the front?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 31, 2015)

tpatana said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Just for orientation clarity, when looking at a picture taken with the camera and comparing it to *looking directly at the sensor*, the top of the picture is the bottom of the sensor, and the left side of the picture is the left side of the sensor (i.e. flipped vertically but not horizontally).
> ...



Short of disassembling the camera, smashing it to bits and digging through the pieces to find the sensor, or being born on Krypton and traveling to Earth where the yellow sun gives you the power of X-Ray vision, do you know of a way to look directly at the back side of the sensor?


----------



## tpatana (Nov 1, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Either I have X-ray vision or there's something wrong with your profile picture ;D

Working (mostly) in the field of electronics testing, items like left/right must be defined so that there's zero possibility of wrong reading when next person checks the message. So I can be bit anal when making sure how to read the description


----------



## zim (Nov 1, 2015)

Well looking from the bright side, I still don't see a line anywhere


----------



## rfdesigner (Nov 1, 2015)

For the record, yes it's the filter in front of the sensor where a scratch may or may not exist and it CAN be replaced for FAR less than the cost of a new sensor, but apparently (according to Roger at Lensrentals) Canon always replaces the whole unit.. which includes the sensor and a much larger bill. So just chaning the filter means not going directly to Canon.

Just something to keep in mind.


----------



## rs (Nov 1, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



And to think I was expecting Filluppa to attack with this sort of useful factual guidance from you...


----------



## fugu82 (Nov 1, 2015)

LifePixel will repair a scratched sensor for a base price of $250. I have used them for infrared conversions, and can recommend their services. http://www.lifepixel.com/product-category/our-services/scratched-sensor-repair


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2015)

Fair point. I should have simply ignored Aglet's inflammatory remarks, and will endeavor to do so in the future.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 5, 2015)

bjd said:


> Hi,
> my weekend was slightly ruined on Saturday. Canon does free Cleaning and Checking at a local Wildlife Photo Annual Meeting, and as usual I handed in my 5D MK3 to be cleaned. When I got it back I was told it had not been cleaned as the sensor is scratched. Putting fluid on it could make the damage worse. Apparently its a straight line across parallel to the top edge of the sensor. When asked how that could happen the tech thought some dirt may have been on the curtain.
> I have never cleaned the sensor myself, only Canon has been near it. Does the explanation sound plausible?
> 
> ...




Brian, after reading your posts about the issue, I'd be inclined to believe that Canon scratched the sensor during the previous cleanings they did for you , unless someone else has been working on it after that. 


I'd ask them to take care of it and see what they say. Give them the history, the times they have cleaned it, etc. A person should not have to put up with someone scratching the sensor during cleaning, it seems unlikely that the shutter could have done it due to the orientation of the scratch. Canon does not like to do wet cleaning, they use dry pec pads, but a grain of sand on the sensor can scratch it when wiped with a pad.


----------



## bjd (Nov 5, 2015)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> bjd said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...



Hi,
I wrote a long email with some example shots to the Service Dept. of Calumet whom I bought the Camera from, and who employed Canon to do the sensor cleaning. Lets see how they answer?

Problem will be ( I assume) that I cannot prove that no one else has cleaned the sensor.


FWIW, If I saw it correctly, when the Techs clean a sensor here they have a metallic looking pointed tool and
wrap a small square piece of paper/material around it, then they wet that and clean the sensor with it. 
So it is done wet here. 

Just wondering if that tool is metal, and if it can push through the paper?

Cheers Brian


som


----------



## bjd (Nov 6, 2015)

bjd said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > bjd said:
> ...



Hi, I contacted Calumet, whom I have bought about 95% of my equipment from, and they will
take care of having Canon inspect the Camera to determine what the damage is, and how it can
be repaired (if required). So I'll be taking the Camera to them next week.

The guy I talked to confirmed what I said about how the sensor is cleaned. Apparently
this is the standard procedure for Canon and Nikon here in Europe. And, yes, it is a 
metal tweezer that is used to grasp a piece of cleaning paper, which is then wrapped around 
the tweezer, so scratching the sensor while cleaning would theoretically be possible.

I'll keep you informed of the outcome.

Cheers Brian


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 6, 2015)

Thanks for the update!


----------



## bjd (Nov 10, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Thanks for the update!


I'm taking the Camera to Calumet in person tomorrow, they are sending it to Canon.

Meanwhile I talked to a (seemingly) very knowledgeable person today about sensor cleaning.
He cannot believe that they are still wet-cleaned by anyone. He does all sorts of Conversions and 
actually just recommended that I do nothing, and never have the sensor cleaned by Canon again.
Probably what I will do.

If I want a new Filter glass he will replace it, cheapest solution is with IR but minus the anti-aliasing filter,
would cost me about half of what I expect the estimate from Canon will be (around 1200 €).

Check out his site, he seems to know what he is talking about:

http://www.optic-makario.de/kameraumbau/

Sorry but it is all in German. Here some of the other stuff he does:

http://www.optic-makario.de/instrumentenoptik/

Cheers Brian


----------



## bjd (Dec 7, 2015)

Hi everyone,
so I now have my 5D MK3 back in my grubby little fingers, unrepaired. 

Canon wanted around 930€ to replace the sensor.

They accept no responsibility whatsoever and say I must have cleaned and scratched the sensor,
as there is no way that could happen at their "clean and check service" !!!!!!!!

"Clean and check" is done at the owners risk anyway, and there is no way that I can see for me to
prove that I have never cleaned the sensor.

So I guess I am screwed.

Does anyone have any ideas of how to proceed? The only way I can see is to write directly to
Canon, customer relations maybe, and complain to them. Maybe get a Lawyer to write me a letter
to Canon.

Calumet was very supportive through the whole thing and managed to avoid me having to pay
Canon for a repair estimate, but they can't seem to help further either.

Having said that, the scratch is still not visible, and I will not be having the sensor cleaned again by Canon.

Roll on the 5D MK4! Then the 5D MK3 will have to go.

BTW: I also sent my 100-400 MKII with the Camera and had the two adjusted together, or at least
checked that they work together OK.

Cheers Brian


----------



## Sporgon (Dec 7, 2015)

I wonder how many of us have got scratched sensors and don't know about it ? If you are going to have sensors cleaned by mechanical methods it's likely inevitable that it will eventually be marked one way or another. 

I don't even bother cleaning mine now. I just spot any visible dust marks out later.


----------



## bjd (Dec 7, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> I wonder how many of us have got scratched sensors and don't know about it ? If you are going to have sensors cleaned by mechanical methods it's likely inevitable that it will eventually be marked one way or another.
> 
> I don't even bother cleaning mine now. I just spot any visible dust marks out later.


I wish you had told me that earlier.......... :-[
Thats my strategy too now.

Cheers Brian


----------



## tron (Dec 7, 2015)

I too was thinking that this must have happened by them. I do not have my cameras cleaned but I am a hobbyist who doesn't shoot so many thousands of pics. I had my 5D2 cleaned when ... I sold it!

Now I have two 5D3 cameras which will be cleaned a few months or one year after ... 5D4 is introduced


----------



## Maximilian (Dec 7, 2015)

Hi Brian! 

I feel with you. 930€ is a lot of money.

I'd personally talk to a lawyer and if a statement on oath ("Eidesstattliche Erklärung") would help you here. 
Of course legal action is always stress and costs...


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Dec 7, 2015)

This sad fact teaches us that we can not rely on the sensor cleaning, conducted by Canon authorized service. Really sad to see that.

As you do not see the effect of risk in your photos, you can continue using your camera. Just avoid F22 lens openings, or more closed than that, it could become visible in the photos.


----------



## Valvebounce (Dec 7, 2015)

Hi Brian. 
My thought here is €930 spent at a lawyer will not get you very far towards sorting this out, Canon are unlikely to change their mind because you have a lawyer. It will have the net result of making you €930 poorer and after a couple of stamps, some ink, paper and envelope the lawyer will be €920 richer! You would probably need another 0 on the lawyer's fee to get anywhere close to winning this! Unfortunately this approach does mean Canon gets away with it and you then spend more with them on another camera. 
Fortunately as you say you can't see the mark in your images it is more of a mind thing than a matter thing. 
Put the €930 in a pot and wait for your next holiday or camera upgrade, you will appreciate it much more. 
I used to wet clean my own sensors, I figured that the local shop kid probably had less training in engineering and less interest in not hurting my sensor than I do. I now have an arctic butterfly, if that don't shift it it stays. 

Cheers, Graham.


----------



## bjd (Dec 7, 2015)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Brian.
> My thought here is €930 spent at a lawyer will not get you very far towards sorting this out, Canon are unlikely to change their mind because you have a lawyer. It will have the net result of making you €930 poorer and after a couple of stamps, some ink, paper and envelope the lawyer will be €920 richer! You would probably need another 0 on the lawyer's fee to get anywhere close to winning this! Unfortunately this approach does mean Canon gets away with it and you then spend more with them on another camera.
> Fortunately as you say you can't see the mark in your images it is more of a mind thing than a matter thing.
> Put the €930 in a pot and wait for your next holiday or camera upgrade, you will appreciate it much more.
> ...



Too true, Canon has won anyway. The 930€ will go towards the 5D MK4. Which will not be cleaned.
Cheers Brian


----------



## bjd (Dec 7, 2015)

Maximilian said:


> Hi Brian!
> 
> I feel with you. 930€ is a lot of money.
> 
> ...


That may be an idea. My idea was just to pay a lawyer to write a single letter to Canon, and see 
what reaction I get. No way I would want to get into a legal struggle about it!
Cheers Brian


----------



## neuroanatomist (Dec 7, 2015)

Valvebounce said:


> I now have an arctic butterfly, if that don't shift it it stays.



The arctic butterfly has always done the trick for me. I do have a pack of the DustAid Platinum sensor 'stamps' recommended/used by LensRentals (press-and-lift seems safer than wet-and-wipe), but I haven't needed them yet.


----------



## Sporgon (Dec 7, 2015)

bjd said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Brian!
> ...



The trouble is that you have absolutely no way of proving that either you or some other non Canon technician did the damage. Looking at it from Canon's point of view; I would imagine that they are inundated with damaged sensors from people inadvertently scratching, wetting, contaminating, cracking them etc, etc, especially when you consider how many guys can't help fiddling with their toys, and many are probably pretty well mechanically inept !


----------



## Larsskv (Dec 7, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> bjd said:
> 
> 
> > Maximilian said:
> ...



Well, if he has a test picture from just before the cleaning, that "proves" that the scratch isnt there, it would strongly indicate that Canon messed up.


----------



## tron (Dec 7, 2015)

@OP: IF (and only if) the damage is on the low pass filter then (another) if you are interested in astrophotography you could have this camera modified.

But these are many "ifs" and only ... if you cannot sell it to fund the next camera (for example 5D4).


----------



## bjd (Dec 7, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> ....
> especially when you consider how many guys can't help fiddling with their toys, and many are probably pretty well mechanically inept !



Better to only fiddle around with soft targets. Although with the female ones that can also be costly in the long run.... :-\


----------



## bjd (Dec 7, 2015)

Larsskv said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > bjd said:
> ...


All test pictures I tried dont show the scratch. In fact, the "acceptance" control of the Camera for service, done by Calumet could not find the scratch. The guy (who himself also does Sensor Cleaning in their shop) spent about 10 minutes looking, using a lit magnifying glass, and could not see anything.
So if I had the same tools, and had inspected the Sensor last time it came back from "Clean and Check",
I would probably not have seen it either.

But I have learnt my lesson, no more cleaning of the sensors!

Cheers Brian


----------



## dirx (Dec 20, 2015)

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but I am new and I can't create new postings.

I bought a 5D Mark III in January 2014. I ve never touched the sensor in any ways. I allways used an air rocket blower. Yesterday I wanted to wet clean my sensor, because I noticed a few dust spots after a nightscape session.

I did my initial test shot on f32 against a white image, imported it to photoshop and did Auto Tone, when I noticed a scratch or something in the upper left corner.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tdszajp763ebj6b/sensor.jpg?dl=0

Close up of the area:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/he9ozde0yp4spjj/scratch-close.jpg?dl=0


If I compress the levels on a real world photo, you can notice it too:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jc0u2p89x6odx3i/pier.jpg?dl=0

Should I be concerned and get it fixed?

I think the scratch is somewhere between the AA glass and the sensor itself. I dont think it is on the surface.

How does Canon handle things like that?

Thanks!


----------



## rfdesigner (Dec 20, 2015)

dirx said:


> Sorry for hijacking this thread, but I am new and I can't create new postings.
> 
> I bought a 5D Mark III in January 2014. I ve never touched the sensor in any ways. I allways used an air rocket blower. Yesterday I wanted to wet clean my sensor, because I noticed a few dust spots after a nightscape session.
> 
> ...



If there's a scratch it's not on the sensor, you can't get at it to scratch it, it's on the IR blocking filter.. which is replaceable for ~£200, though canon will normally change the sensor too for much more money and replace the whole unit, so you'd need to find an independant place to just replace the filter.

However you probably don't have a scratch but a grease mark or similar.

I would also argue that what you have isn't that bad.. how often do you shoot at F32?.. how wide do you need to shoot for it not to matter? I ask this as my experiece comes from astronomy, and there the general wisdom is that it's better to have dirty optics than scratched optics. Most of the time for stills a slight mark can be touched up in post, but I do see you might have a slight problem with video where a mark would be on every frame.


----------



## dirx (Dec 20, 2015)

dirx said:


> However you probably don't have a scratch but a grease mark or similar.
> 
> I would also argue that what you have isn't that bad.. how often do you shoot at F32?.. how wide do you need to shoot for it not to matter? I ask this as my experiece comes from astronomy, and there the general wisdom is that it's better to have dirty optics than scratched optics. Most of the time for stills a slight mark can be touched up in post, but I do see you might have a slight problem with video where a mark would be on every frame.



I m a portrait shooter and I live arround f5.6, so I can live with it. I was thinking I might have a chance to get it fixed by Canon because it is a factory/assembly fault. I also dont do video. I ll call Canon tomorrow and if they dont help me, I ll leave it as it is. Thanks tho!


----------

