# 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 8, 2011)

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<p><strong>DPR Rumor Fun

</strong>[<a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html">NL</a>] posted a link to a fun DPR rumor. I don’t post them often, but I’ve heard similar sort of stuff previously.</p>
<blockquote><p>heard from canon themselves september release full frame 28mp, 10fps, digic v, new auto focus, 1.3 crop mode. 1ds replacement is into medium format around 42mp in a more compact body to competition set for end of year with 5dIII at 24.1mp and 7 fps</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=38158749">From DPR</a></p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## Ivar (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

This rumor is what it is but to me it sounds plausible.


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## HughHowey (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

I think the digic V is almost certain. And it's certain to trickle down into their other models. It fits with a 5D3 that does more MP at higher FPS. I wonder how hard it's gonna be to get a 5D3 around launch. I feel like people have been waiting and saving up for this camera for a long time.

Probably be a nice time to grab a 5D2.


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## Macadameane (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

A stretch... a long stretch.

Where are all those MF lenses to go with that MF sensor?

The 5D III bit seems a little high on the FPS too, but I guess its not impossible.


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## Stuart (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

"Ffull frame 28mp, 10fps, digic v, new auto focus, 1.3 crop mode. " One camera to rule them all ? no more a 1d/ds split.

"1ds replacement is into medium format around 42mp in a more compact body to competition" keeping the series looking like canon and leaving the 1d to be the new 5d?
Will Canon be able to share a lens mount with an existing provider to give them faster access to the market?

Is this the 7D with a FF sensor - 5dIII at 24.1mp and 7 fps ?

Damm this sounds like an expensive wish list.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



Macadameane said:


> A stretch... a long stretch.



Agreed. These are 'wishes' not 'rumors'. 



Macadameane said:


> Where are all those MF lenses to go with that MF sensor?



Well, the L-series TS-E lenses have a big enough image circle for a MF sensor (provided you don't apply tilt or shift).


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## motorhead (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

So you think Canon may be thinking of a compromise? Using existing lenses on a medium format sensor? It seems a curiously warped decision if so. Neither fish nor fowl. 40MP I'm all in favour of provided its on a 36 x 24mm frame, but 40MP on a medium frame sensor does not even match the best existing MF offerings. If Canon are serious about medium format then they need to do the job properly, with a range of MF lenses and a body with maybe 80 or 100mp. 

Of course time will tell, but on the face of it this news has left me a little under-whelmed. I hope this is Canon testing consumer reaction and not a serious suggestion.


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## GMCPhotographics (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

Personally, i couldn't really care if Canon brings out another 1.3x crop or full frame 1D series camera. For me, the 5D range is my interest. I'm currently using a pair of 5DII's and I'm getting great results with them. My cameras are getting close to three years old, so my reason for upgrading to the eventual 5DIII is purely a reliability reason


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## kubelik (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



Macadameane said:


> A stretch... a long stretch.
> 
> Where are all those MF lenses to go with that MF sensor?
> 
> The 5D III bit seems a little high on the FPS too, but I guess its not impossible.



I think the rumorer meant the MP count is into "MF territory" at 42 MP, not that there's actually a MF sensor.


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## Stuart (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



kubelik said:


> I think the rumorer meant the MP count is into "MF territory" at 42 MP, not that there's actually a MF sensor.


Good point Sir! In that case its only 2 camera's, both long expected, and no new lense sizes needs just better resolving power.


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## HughHowey (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



kubelik said:


> Macadameane said:
> 
> 
> > A stretch... a long stretch.
> ...



Agreed.


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## unfocused (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



> I think the rumorer meant the MP count is into "MF territory" at 42 MP, not that there's actually a MF sensor.



Absolutely. 

I don't know about the release dates, but the specs sound plausible.

The full frame with 1.3 crop option would ease the transition away from the 1.3 crop sensor, which is an orphan in terms of lenses. 

A high megapixel flagship body satisfies the commercial pros that need maximum resolution and maximum size. Since sensor size is a major contributor to the cost of a body, this allows Canon to hold down costs while giving commercial photographers medium-format quality in a DSLR body.

No real opinion on the 5D III. Sounds reasonable.

Bottom line, there is enough logic in this rumor that it could be accurate, but then again, most of it is just common sense and could be imputed by anyone following the market.


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## dunky76 (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

I am just wondering why they never speculate on ISO range? I would love to know this little detail....


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



dunky76 said:


> I am just wondering why they never speculate on ISO range? I would love to know this little detail....



There's a big difference between the _available_ ISO range and the _acceptable_ ISO range. My 7D can be set to ISO 12,800...but it gets too noisy for critical work above ISO 800 - thats nearly 4 stops that aren't useful. It doesn't help of Canon adds even more range - they need to expand the useful range, and expand the dynamic range across the board.


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## alipaulphotography (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

ISO range won't provide any information on the 'useable' ISO range. 

The 1D sounds like direct competition to a D3X (or their update). I still don't see the 5D having 7fps as it will be taking sales from the 1D and even the 7D.

Sounds interesting though


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## dunky76 (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

Sorry...when I said is there any word on the ISO range, I was assuming knowledge that there would be an improvement over the 5D MKII's ISO performance which believe to be decent right up to 6400. I love night photography...and would love to be getting good images at 12800 or even 25600.


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## EYEONE (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

ISO is sunject to so much opinion I would image it would be hard to report. They can say that the 1D V a X to X ISO range but that really does mean anything until you see pictures.

Personally I'm a bit more forgiving of High ISO depending on the picture. There is nothing wrong with the 7Ds performance at 3200 it can be made to work. Apply a little NR in LR3 and maybe add some grain. Of course there is always the option of going B/W which helps.

That all being said the Nikon D3s is a thing of beauty in low light. I really do wish Canon could match that performance.


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## bvukich (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



kubelik said:


> I think the rumorer meant the MP count is into "MF territory" at 42 MP, not that there's actually a MF sensor.



Absolutely. Unless it came with a new mount and lenses, or mirrorless + CD AF that is usable.

Beyond image circle considerations (which apparently you can get around with TS lenses), there is the fact that you can't have a MF sensor on a EF mount body for the same reason you cant have a FF square sensor and retain the mirror. Assuming the sensor is full 645 format (56 Ã— 41.5mm), that would result in a mirror that is 58.7mm, which significantly larger than EF flange distance of 44mm. Even a pellix mirror would be to big, but perhaps possible if you sacrifice VF coverage at the top (bottom) of the frame.


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## KWSW (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

guess its time to hold off my 7D upgrade to the 1DmkV... lol 

but yeah the 1.3 crop mode is very very interesting...


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## alipaulphotography (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

Crop mode was first introduced by nikon with their D3s/x cameras. So canon would just be playing catch up. They had it cropping to 1.5x.

I do hope there is a significant lower noise at high ISO's. D3S can handle ISO 8000 with not much problem at all! Even the D700 can out noise the 5D mk II.

Ali

www.alipaul.com


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## Rocky (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

For me, the 1.3X crop on a FF sensor is a gimmick. By switching from FF to 1.3X crop will not by us anything except a smaller file size and a narrower angle of view. We can do the same thing at post process by cropping the FF picture.


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## bvukich (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



Rocky said:


> For me, the 1.3X crop on a FF sensor is a gimmick. By switching from FF to 1.3X crop will not by us anything except a smaller file size and a narrower angle of view. We can do the same thing at post process by cropping the FF picture.



Absolutely. 1.3x crop mode is pointless. 1.6x crop mode (assuming to afford EF-S compatibility) is impossible.

For Nikon it makes a little more sense, because their crop lenses vary only in image circle cast; afaik the physical specifications of the mount are identical. With EF-S, lenses are allowed to intrude into the mirror box by a specified amount, and lenses that do (generally wide angle) will not clear a FF mirror.


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## EYEONE (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

If you think it's a gimmick then don't use it. I personally think it's a good idea. It easily combines the 1D and 1Ds lines and allows users to get that little extra reach if they need it for sports and wildlife photography if they want it. But can switch to FF mode to get wide angle shots or start doing portrait work with the same camera.

And I still think Canon could redesign the mirror motion to allow a EF-S lens to be mounted on a FF camera. But that is beside the point.


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## Macadameane (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

If more reach is needed and you know you will need to crop, I think a 1.3 or even a 1.6 crop feature would be nice. There's case of quick delivery too. There may not be time to go home and crop 200 photos.


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## motorhead (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

If the announcement was not really meaning medium format then I'm a lot happier and am likely to be one of the first standing in line for a 40mp full frame body. But why mention medium format if Canon don't mean it? That's just crazy. If it's an oblique reference to the "square" sensor thats been floated before, then thats not MF and its stupid to pretend it is. 

A 40mp 36 x 24mm sensor would buy Canon a year or so's breathing space before the opposition match it. Given the delay in the introduction of the 1Ds mk4, anything less than 40mp would prove to me that Canon have been asleep for a couple of years. Even at 40, they will not have bought themselves much time, so it needs to come with best in class DR and noise control.


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## Rocky (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



EYEONE said:


> If you think it's a gimmick then don't use it. I personally think it's a good idea. It easily combines the 1D and 1Ds lines and allows users to get that little extra reach if they need it for sports and wildlife photography if they want it. But can switch to FF mode to get wide angle shots or start doing portrait work with the same camera.
> 
> And I still think Canon could redesign the mirror motion to allow a EF-S lens to be mounted on a FF camera. But that is beside the point.


The "reach" is artificial. You are using the same lens and same pixel density of the sensor. You do not gain any resolution or sharpness by "cropping". Nikon has been pulling back the mirror privot befor flipping the mirror up for a long time ( may be since F 4). The reason of doing that is to increase the size of the mirror to avoid the dimming of the upper part of image in the view finder. They might still holding the pattern right on this. As for using an EF-S lens on a FF is pointless. The image circle of the EF-S just cannot cover the FF. 
I do agree with Macadameane that cropping in the camera may be a time saver. On the other hand, we can always use a longer lens or zoom out a little bit instead of cropping.


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## bvukich (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



EYEONE said:


> If you think it's a gimmick then don't use it. I personally think it's a good idea. It easily combines the 1D and 1Ds lines and allows users to get that little extra reach if they need it for sports and wildlife photography if they want it. But can switch to FF mode to get wide angle shots or start doing portrait work with the same camera.



The perceived increase in reach is just that, perceived.



EYEONE said:


> And I still think Canon could redesign the mirror motion to allow a EF-S lens to be mounted on a FF camera. But that is beside the point.



Not really possible. The mirror requires X amount of space to flip up. The specifications for EF-S overlap that space by Y.

X-Y=broken mirror.

The only way to avoid that would be to make the top pivot point of the mirror move in addition to the leading edge flipping up. Even then, you're probably only buying yourself a couple of mm. That would result in the mirror being slower, less precise, and induce more vibration; and the more complex the motion of the mirror, the worse each of those attributes gets.


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## bvukich (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



Rocky said:


> Nikon has been pulling back the mirror privot befor flipping the mirror up for a long time ( may be since F 4).



Interesting, I didn't know they did that. From an engineering standpoint, it just seems like a really bad idea if you can avoid it.


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## EYEONE (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



Rocky said:


> EYEONE said:
> 
> 
> > If you think it's a gimmick then don't use it. I personally think it's a good idea. It easily combines the 1D and 1Ds lines and allows users to get that little extra reach if they need it for sports and wildlife photography if they want it. But can switch to FF mode to get wide angle shots or start doing portrait work with the same camera.
> ...



Thanks, I'm fully aware of cropping works on full frame lenses. 
I think the ability to choose between FF and a crop mode would be useful. 

I do understand that a full size mirror with a normal swing motion would hit the back of an EF-S lens.
I believe the Sony A900 also has a mirror motion that doesn't swing out that much. The front edge of the mirror does not end up very far forward from where it started when a picture is taken. It's more like the mirror is "pushed" up rather than a "swinging" motion.


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## Rocky (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



bvukich said:


> Rocky said:
> 
> 
> > Nikon has been pulling back the mirror privot befor flipping the mirror up for a long time ( may be since F 4).
> ...



Agree. It is not an ideal situation. However. that is the only way Nikon can increase the mirror size. In the OLD days. if a 200mm lens is used in a SLR (film). the upper 1/5 of the image in the viwe finder is darkened.


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## bvukich (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



EYEONE said:


> I believe the Sony A900 also has a mirror motion that doesn't swing out that much. The front edge of the mirror does not end up very far forward from where it started when a picture is taken. It's more like the mirror is "pushed" up rather than a "swinging" motion.



Just sliding up (or a combination of both) may be plausible with a pentamirror setup if you relieved the corners of the side(roof) mirrors. But with a pentaprism I don't see there being enough room. Interesting thought though.

Do you happen to know if the A900 mirror or prism?


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## Rocky (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



EYEONE said:


> The mirror on the A900 is effectively getting the same result as Nikon( the "bigger" mirror moves back during the swing )
> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydslra900/page3.asp
> As far as I know, there is only ONE SLR have a side way moving mirror other than a flip up mirror. It is the Olympus Pen F. That is another story. You can google it if you are interested.


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## Lawliet (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



alipaulphotography said:


> Crop mode was first introduced by nikon with their D3s/x cameras.



No, the D2x had it too. Shoot either at 12MP/5fps or cropped down and fast.
Thats a viable option if you're short on processing power or bandwidth.


As for cropping in post: thats throwing away perfectly good buffer space while burdening you with extra processing time. Doesn't matter in the studio, but if you want to be the first one to deliver your pics of an event...


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## EYEONE (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



bvukich said:


> EYEONE said:
> 
> 
> > I believe the Sony A900 also has a mirror motion that doesn't swing out that much. The front edge of the mirror does not end up very far forward from where it started when a picture is taken. It's more like the mirror is "pushed" up rather than a "swinging" motion.
> ...



Pentiprism.
A picture of the mirror motion is the 4th picture down on the right. A picture of the Prism is below.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydslra900/page3.asp


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## EYEONE (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*



Rocky said:


> The mirror on the A900 is effectively getting the same result as Nikon( the "bigger" mirror moves back during the swing )
> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydslra900/page3.asp
> As far as I know, there is only ONE SLR have a side way moving mirror other than a flip up mirror. It is the Olympus Pen F. That is another story. You can google it if you are interested.



Interesting. I found an artical about it. http://www.cameraquest.com/olypenf.htm


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## Etienne (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: 1D & 1Ds Rumors [CR1]*

I'm all for 24 MP 5DIII with 7FPS
Add better AF, reduced moire, improved high ISO, AF during video, pixel binning with crop options and I'd be a happy camper.


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