# Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 19, 2017)

```
A <a href="https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=JP&NR=2017098728A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=4&date=20170601&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP">patent from Canon Japan</a> showing new rear screen designs has appeared, and it looks very interesting. I think a lot of us have always assumed eventually the entire back of a camera would be an LCD/OLED. Beyond just the size of the screen, the patent also covers a new way pivot mecanism for the LCD, you can see the images below.</p>
<p>What’s also interesting is the mode dial appearing from behind the screen when you move it.</p>
<p>A lot of us have called on Canon to put vari-angle LCD’s on professional cameras such as the EOS-1D X series, EOS 5D series and the EOS 7D series, and we’re still waiting. This would definitely be a big leap in a new direction for rear camera screens, but I suspect too big of a leap to see first in a flagship professional camera such as the EOS-1D X Mark III, but it could be introduced in a lower end camera such as the EOS 7D Mark III or a new videoc focused DSLR.</p>



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## entoman (Oct 19, 2017)

A really interesting concept.

With the monitor in the up position, you have full access to the rear thumbwheel etc, and you have all the shooting info displayed on the screen, which you can look down at, when the camera is hanging from your neck. This makes the little LCD panel on the top plate obsolete, making space for an improved button / dial layout.

And of course you can switch it into live view or replay mode, as well as use it to dspaly shooting info.

The screen then folds back down and reverses to protect it from damage when the camera is packed.

Brilliant. Innovation, at last.


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## Viggo (Oct 19, 2017)

Would you have to move the screen to access the rear dial?


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## unfocused (Oct 19, 2017)

I kind of hate this.

You have to flip this screen up and out in order to have access to the controls on the back of the camera?

So, for everyone who complains about the supposed fragility of a flip screen, imagine having to have the screen always flipped out in order to have access to the controls on the back of the camera. 

If cameras aren't big enough as they are, imagine now having this massive flip screen hanging out calling even more attention to you and your camera. 

What about touch screen functionality -- the ergonomics of having to hold the camera and use a touch screen that is flapping about would be terrible, so you would have to flip this thing back in every time you wanted to use the touch screen. 

It might be great for video, allowing a larger screen. But can't see this as a good solution for stills. 

I'm hoping I'm missing something here, but this looks really clunky and impractical to me. If I have to choose between a fully functioning touch screen and a flip screen, I'll choose the touch screen every time.


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## SecureGSM (Oct 19, 2017)

+1. with on camera flash attached, how one supposed to flip the screen up and not get the flash in the way?


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## ethanz (Oct 19, 2017)

In the last picture I can just imagine it slapping the guy in the face every time he moves.


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## Ryananthony (Oct 19, 2017)

As a non video shooter (so if I'm wrong let me know), this to me looks best suited for video dedicated dslr rig which many assume would never happen. It looks to me like a dslr with a dedicated Atomos Ninja built in, minus the external recording function, assuming. Which would be neat, if the rear screen was big enough to house a 1TB ssd or something and removable. It makes little sense to me as a photography dedicated rig personally.


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## jolyonralph (Oct 19, 2017)

The image showing the screen oriented towards the subject of the photo is interesting.

This either means:

a) the screen is being used as a big white light to illuminate. Which would be kind of cheap and nasty for a DSLR but, who knows...

or

b) the screen is being used to show the subject what the photographer is seeing. But wait, what then is the photographer seeing through the viewfinder? Therefore this has to be either a mirrorless or a hybrid ovf/evf device to use this technology.


ps. Ergonomics make or kill a camera. the system would have to be able to be comfortably used without moving the screen or it's dead.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 19, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> The image showing the screen oriented towards the subject of the photo is interesting.
> 
> This either means:
> 
> ...



Or much more likely:

c) SELFIE MODE!


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## ethanz (Oct 19, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > The image showing the screen oriented towards the subject of the photo is interesting.
> ...



lol. I love taking a selfie with my 1dx, so easy to hold and aim.


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## Viggo (Oct 19, 2017)

unfocused said:


> I kind of hate this.
> 
> You have to flip this screen up and out in order to have access to the controls on the back of the camera?
> 
> ...



+1


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## traveller (Oct 19, 2017)

Presumably, the camera is just to provide a sense of scale compared to existing products... surely Canon would not be daft enough to actually put key controls _behind_ a flip out screen? 

To be honest, I'd rather they just get on with fitting any of their _existing_ designs of tilting screens across the whole range (perhaps with the exception of the 1D series).


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## 9VIII (Oct 19, 2017)

I think this is the worst photography related idea I’ve ever seen.

Worse than selling century old lens designs, worse than Instagram filters, worse than a camera with no screen at all. I’m trying to think of equivalently bad and failed ideas, but I can’t think of anything that would be as bad as if Canon were to try to make this happen.


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## Halfrack (Oct 19, 2017)

So for me, I'd put the dial & joystick on the back side of the screen - that way you can be casual photog with giant touch screen or sports tog with mini/no screen & hard controls.

As to turning the screen with a flash on, you only need to extend to 90deg, then rotate & close.


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## dolina (Oct 19, 2017)

Kinda sorta looks like the Samsung Galaxy NX.







That's a 4.77-inch multitouch screen.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 19, 2017)

I'd suggest that people navigate to the linked patent and read it, it answers most of the questions, and many assumptions are wrong. It is pretty confusing, so plan on spending time reading it. There are also a list of different implementations which work differently, just in case you aren't confused enough.

http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=JP&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=2017098728&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=ja&TRGLANG=en

The primary purpose of the patent is to providethe lcd panel the ability to move closer or further from the eye such that the effective diopter can match the ovf. This is so it can be in focus for people who switch from the OVF to the LCD and don't want to put on or take off their glasses in order to do so.


I've copied a few snipets from the patent, its a very long read.

PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED: To provide a digital camera capable of reducing a *difference in diopter of an external monitor with respect to an optical viewfinder when an optical viewfinder and an external monitor are used in combination. *SOLUTION: In a lens exchangeable digital camera comprising an optical viewfinder 2 having an eyepiece and an external display device 1 for live view, the external display device 1 is provided with an upward jumping and rotating mechanism, And the reversing mechanism, it is possible to arrange the screen center of the external display device 1 on the upper right side of the optical viewfinder 2 as viewed from the rear

In a single lens reflex digital camera capable of interchangeable lenses, live view function is becoming popular. Conventionally, a photographer formed a light beam from a photographic lens on a focusing plate using a quick return mirror, and observed through an eyepiece through a pentaprism. On the other hand, it has recently become common to mount a function of imaging light rays from a photographing lens directly on a sensor and displaying the image information converted into an electric signal on a liquid crystal monitor or the like in real time. It is what is called live view. [0003] 
As the external monitor for the live view, a rear liquid crystal monitor of the camera is used, however, in order to improve the degree of freedom of the photographing angle and the visibility, a configuration in which the orientation of the external monitor is made variable has been proposed. 

The screen center of the external monitor is located at about 167 mm from the right eye of the photographer, and the diopter at that time is 6 diopters. Consider this 6 diopters as a criterion of a distance that can not be focused closer than this, that is, a point of nearness. Individual differences are large in the neighborhood, and it moves away with age. The value of 6 diopters is a representative value for the sake of convenience only, but set the criteria for the near point for the following reasons. -------

Both the first and second embodiments, the external monitor 1 can have a touch panel function, and it is also possible to perform the operation by touch panel instead of the button related to the camera operation. At that time, it is preferable that the operation by the touch panel is limited to when the external monitor 1 is stored on the back of the camera. This is because the external monitor itself moves in the state where the external monitor 1 is deployed, since the external monitor has a foldable mechanism, which makes it difficult to operate the touch panel. [0058] 
In the state where the external monitor is deployed, it is preferable to place alternative switches in the external monitor storage space on the back of the camera.


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## rfdesigner (Oct 19, 2017)

Canon Rumors said:


> ... I think a lot of us have always assumed eventually the entire back of a camera would be an LCD/OLED..



I would suggest that particular route is a blind alley.

unless of course you have programmable contours otherwise you can't use it without looking at it. There's no tactile feedback. Which is the exact complaint I have with a few modern car systems.. on my ancient MB everything is tactile, which means I can do everything by touch without taking my eyes off the road. In that sense cameras should be the same.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 19, 2017)

rfdesigner said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > ... I think a lot of us have always assumed eventually the entire back of a camera would be an LCD/OLED..
> ...



Although my gut feeling is the same as yours, in practice, I find myself using the touch interface on my 5D IV and SL2 almost exclusively, so in practice, my gut feeling is not panning out. I think that Canon has really done a fantastic job with the human interface on the touch screen, its very intuitive. So, young people who are used to touch on their smart phones are going to feel at home with Canon's touch in the future. There are so many things I like about the touch screen that they override the few things I don't like. I hated trying to push the zoom pution multiple times, now its just a pinch gesture to magnify the screen and move to the area I want to see, really fast and easy.


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## rfdesigner (Oct 19, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> rfdesigner said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



intersting.

I have the mousepad on my laptop set to "plain vanilla", no pinch, no tap, just plain move the pointer. I find my fingers always judder across touch screens so they then think I'm clicking everything and go uttely bonkers...


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## unfocused (Oct 19, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> rfdesigner said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



I think we are talking about apples and oranges.

A touch screen is very useful for reviewing images and for navigating through menus. Much more intuitive and easier than punching buttons.

Buttons, click wheels and joysticks are much more useful when one is shooting through an optical viewfinder. The tactile feedback is important when one can't take their eyes off the subject.


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## Diko (Oct 19, 2017)

I use quite two rear buttons where I have assigned the focus and the other one is used with the top dial to change ISO. I love it because on both occasions I don't need to see, but to feel the button's whereabouts. If I understand correctly the second button would be history.

Don't like it!


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## BroncosFan (Oct 19, 2017)

entoman said:


> A really interesting concept.
> 
> With the monitor in the up position, you have full access to the rear thumbwheel etc, and you have all the shooting info displayed on the screen, which you can look down at, when the camera is hanging from your neck. This makes the little LCD panel on the top plate obsolete, making space for an improved button / dial layout.
> 
> ...




I don't see how the screen would flip in to protect the touch surface with the hinge being off center like it is.


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## BroncosFan (Oct 19, 2017)

This looks awful! Pleeeeez don't mess up my 7D III with this! Don't mess with one of the only things that has kept me a Canon user over the last few years which are the ergonomics and functionality. A simple tilt out screen, ala D500 is more than fine. If you want to innovate start with the sensor not the body. Or just start using Sony sensors, it's ok, we'll still love you in the morning.


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## old-pr-pix (Oct 19, 2017)

As someone who is both left-handed and left eye dominant I'm having a tough time envisioning how I'd adapt to anything like this. At least as shown it seems to be even more right-hand oriented than today's dSLR. On the other hand, it seems obvious from smartphone sales that people like screens as large as can be held with one hand. Combine that with the engineering knowledge that buttons and dials are more expensive to design, make weather-proof and manufacturer compared to touchscreens and firmware and it becomes obvious that at some point the buttons and dials are likely to be minimized if not eliminated.


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## Talys (Oct 19, 2017)

unfocused said:


> I kind of hate this.
> 
> You have to flip this screen up and out in order to have access to the controls on the back of the camera?
> 
> So, for everyone who complains about the supposed fragility of a flip screen, imagine having to have the screen always flipped out in order to have access to the controls on the back of the camera.



I hate it too. This is like having permanent field monitor... or something. The thing on the top looks like it'd just be in the way more than anything, and having all that extra stuff north of the eyepiece just to get to back controls makes no sense.

Anyways, I don't really like flip-up screens anyhow; I think fully articulating is just vastly superior, and I far prefer flip to the side.



old-pr-pix said:


> As someone who is both left-handed and left eye dominant I'm having a tough time envisioning how I'd adapt to anything like this. At least as shown it seems to be even more right-hand oriented than today's dSLR. On the other hand, it seems obvious from smartphone sales that people like screens as large as can be held with one hand. Combine that with the engineering knowledge that buttons and dials are more expensive to design, make weather-proof and manufacturer compared to touchscreens and firmware and it becomes obvious that at some point the buttons and dials are likely to be minimized if not eliminated.



I'm ok with a model of camera with no buttons and dials on the back to make way for a bigger screen. I mean, I wouldn't buy one, but I get it.

I think it's crazy to hide buttons and dials behind the screen in the back, though 

Then again, it's just a patent, not a product. At this point, it's no more than a drawing to ensure that someone else doesn't actually capitalize on this strange idea, though I think Canon should be thankful if someone else does.



SecureGSM said:


> +1. with on camera flash attached, how one supposed to flip the screen up and not get the flash in the way?



You need to watch more CSI. Real photographers use macro flashes for everything.


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## Gnocchi (Oct 20, 2017)

I wonder where they may or may not go with this? It would be kind of good if they could some how implement the touch and move focus system (like the m5) onto a dslr with some kind of overlay in the ovf. This would then give you up to 80% coverage of the sensor with dpaf. I imagine they might have some sort of touch and drag aperture wheel set up on that back screen as well. Who knows?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 20, 2017)

I think we are talking about apples and oranges.

A touch screen is very useful for reviewing images and for navigating through menus. Much more intuitive and easier than punching buttons.

Buttons, click wheels and joysticks are much more useful when one is shooting through an optical viewfinder. The tactile feedback is important when one can't take their eyes off the subject.


No argument there. I've been using live view and dpaf as much as possible, for most cases its fast enough, but the ovf certain lt gets used, and then, its buttons and the joystick. So far, I use them heavily for products where the lcd is a advantage.


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## Talys (Oct 20, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I think we are talking about apples and oranges.
> 
> A touch screen is very useful for reviewing images and for navigating through menus. Much more intuitive and easier than punching buttons.
> 
> ...



Exposure settings are handled much better by dials than onscreen, though, even when you're using a liveview shoot. It's painless to quickly and accurately set aperture and shutter using dials, and even to a lesser extent ISO -- way, way faster than tapping all over the screen. Another critical back button for me is AF. I'd be lost without at least those 2 dials and button as physical controls, even on liveview shooting.

I'm also a big fan of the directional pad or dials for navigating config menus. That's just preference, though.


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## Viggo (Oct 20, 2017)

Talys said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > I think we are talking about apples and oranges.
> ...



Exactly, the whole point of a pro body is being able to control everything with the eye to the VF, and have responsive buttons with feedback. And try using touch screen with rain and snow and gloves, no thanks


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## jolyonralph (Oct 20, 2017)

Talys said:


> Exposure settings are handled much better by dials than onscreen, though, even when you're using a liveview shoot.



I used to think this was obvious, plain common sense, especially as someone who's been shooting with SLRs for a long time.

But the reality is that when the touch screen controls are done right that actually no, it turns out to be MUCH easier to control these things from the touch screen while doing liveview.

Please forgive the heresy, but it's true.


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## jolyonralph (Oct 20, 2017)

Another advantage of touch screen controls is that they can be done with a much lighter touch than regular controls, which is really critical for things like macro work (although generally I do most of my macro shooting tethered so that doesn't really matter.)


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## H. Jones (Oct 20, 2017)

I can definitely see this as a video centric camera, like a 1DC Mark II on steroids. It seems similar to some of the cinema camera designs Canon has made.


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## Talys (Oct 20, 2017)

dolina said:


> Kinda sorta looks like the Samsung Galaxy NX.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow. I would never buy a camera that looked like that.



H. Jones said:


> I can definitely see this as a video centric camera, like a 1DC Mark II on steroids. It seems similar to some of the cinema camera designs Canon has made.



I guess that's what leads me to my sentiment... I've never been interested in videos other than occasionally capturing a moment on my cell phone. Anything that I'd spend money on, I want optimized for stills. Of course, I recognize other people might have totally different priorities.


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## aceflibble (Oct 21, 2017)

Obligatory reminder that patents =/= products even in development, let alone products which you'll find on store shelves. Nine times out of ten a patent is just an idea or theory which a company wants to claim before anybody else beats them to a similar concept.

In this instance, this patent covers Canon for using larger screens, hiding controls under a cover, and a new way of manoeuvring a screen or cover; these could all be used together, alone, in any combination, or never used at all.

It's Canon 'bookmarking' some ideas and very unlikely anything more. Though implementing larger touch screens is inevitable—and I do mean _inevitable_—that's regardless of this particular patent.


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## Ozarker (Oct 21, 2017)

That's not a flip out screen. That's a weather vane.


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## jolyonralph (Oct 22, 2017)

We tend to forget here that we are not the target market. We're the sheep who will buy Canon bodies regardless because we already have our lens investment. 

Canon need to get a new generation of photographers wanting to use interchangeable lens cameras. And for those who have grown up using their cellphone (or iPad!) to take photos the tiny screen on the back of most cameras is a serious problem.

Add to this the perceived "complexity" of 'serious' cameras. Dials with cryptic codes (Av/Tv, etc) - remember we live in an age where people don't want to read manuals. 

So, like it or not, we're going to go towards, at least at the lower end, we have cameras with large touch screens, with the touch screen assisting with things like defining what areas you want in focus or not (rather than manually setting apertures). Our favourite buttons will go because they're confusing and put people off buying a camera.

Improvements in algorithms and the ability to constantly monitor the image data (with a mirrorless or liveview device) will lead to far more intelligent automatic shooting than we've seen before. Better control of levels, better iso management, using some HDR-type techniques with fast multiple frames to get greater dynamic range or greater depth of field automatically, digital effects such as automatic background removal, etc, etc.

And, we'll inevitably see cameras that are not just wifi but cellular enabled too. Want to post your photo immediately to Instagram directly from your camera? No problem. 

So, if you're worried about whether your scroll wheel is going to disappear or not I'm afraid you're really not going to like what's coming next... 

Jolyon

(on the positive side I don't think this change will filter down to non-rebel type cameras for many many years)


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## RobbieHat (Oct 24, 2017)

old-pr-pix said:


> As someone who is both left-handed and left eye dominant I'm having a tough time envisioning how I'd adapt to anything like this. At least as shown it seems to be even more right-hand oriented than today's dSLR. On the other hand, it seems obvious from smartphone sales that people like screens as large as can be held with one hand. Combine that with the engineering knowledge that buttons and dials are more expensive to design, make weather-proof and manufacturer compared to touchscreens and firmware and it becomes obvious that at some point the buttons and dials are likely to be minimized if not eliminated.



I too am left handed and left eye dominate but can see lots of use for this innovation. I shoot a 5DSR today next to a landscape/nightscape photographer that shoots the new Nikon D850. He blows me away in ability to quickly focus, check focus, review images for sharpness, adjust settings and check his FOV with his flip screen with touch enabled controls. It took him about 1000 shots and a few sessions of use before he totally had it mastered. 

I wear glasses and am infuriated by the inability to adjust between the view finder, the screen and my vision (with glasses or without). This could solve a lot of problems in that regard. In addition, as someone that is not afraid of technology and innovation and embraces by iPhone 7+ with the larger screen and better resolution I would wholeheartedly embrace this innovation. 

Many of the dial/switch dedicated functions could be re-positioned on the camera (to where the existing LCD is today or elsewhere) and there usefulness would be retained. We would all have to get used to new ergonomics but we are doing that all the time today and muscle memory is an amazing thing and can be retrained. 

I am hoping for a whole lot of innovation in the 7dIII and 5DSR II or I will seriously look to change systems. I won't be going to Sony but would seriously consider a move to Nikon for my style of shooting. I know I would take a major hit on glass but with all the innovation Sigma is driving and Nikon continuing to refresh many of their older lenses due to high resolution the gap is closing and Canon needs to get their act together on the core sensor capabilities and body ergonomics/innovation or they will lose a lot of shooters like me.


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## Lenscracker (Nov 7, 2017)

I have been with Canon since the original F1N. I have begun to defect a little at a time over the last few years because I am tired of waiting for them to catch up with consumer desires and current technology. It is my opinion that when and if this new screen technology is ever implemented it will have absolutely nothing to do with what the consumer wants. Their line of lenses keep us tied to their line of cameras and they know it. Advances in their camera technology seems to embrace the idea that we will take whatever they decide to give us and we will like it.


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## FramerMCB (Nov 7, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> We tend to forget here that we are not the target market. We're the sheep who will buy Canon bodies regardless because we already have our lens investment.
> 
> Canon need to get a new generation of photographers wanting to use interchangeable lens cameras. And for those who have grown up using their cellphone (or iPad!) to take photos the tiny screen on the back of most cameras is a serious problem.
> 
> ...



I can't wait for the day when we can connect wirelessly directly with our cameras - brain to CPU. So we can just think about what settings we want, what we want to focus on, etc, etc. Oh no, I guess I will still have to touch the thing to aim it...darn it!


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## FramerMCB (Nov 7, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> Improvements in algorithms and the ability to constantly monitor the image data (with a mirrorless or liveview device) will lead to far more intelligent automatic shooting than we've seen before. Better control of levels, better iso management, using some HDR-type techniques with fast multiple frames to get greater dynamic range or greater depth of field automatically, digital effects such as automatic background removal, etc, etc.
> 
> And, we'll inevitably see cameras that are not just wifi but cellular enabled too. Want to post your photo immediately to Instagram directly from your camera? No problem.
> 
> ...



I would like an "HDR" mode that one can enable when the camera is rigid (i.e. tripod mounted or secured in some other way so as to not be moving) that would then take multiple exposures in 1/4 or 1/3-stop increments and you could punch in the exact number of frames wanted - so for a scene with a large DR, like Sunset or Sunrise, you could punch in say 36 frames and the camera would then just whir away with it. Then in POST Processing use an HDR plug-in to combine whichever frames you want to achieve the precise affect...

I know great things can be achieved right now with HDR but this would open up more creativity for the end result(s). Although technically one can do this already in the field in camera it's just a lot more tedious. And most cameras that I'm aware of do not allow 1/4-stop increments - only 1/3.


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## FramerMCB (Nov 7, 2017)

Lenscracker said:


> I have been with Canon since the original F1N. I have begun to defect a little at a time over the last few years because I am tired of waiting for them to catch up with consumer desires and current technology. It is my opinion that when and if this new screen technology is ever implemented it will have absolutely nothing to do with what the consumer wants. Their line of lenses keep us tied to their line of cameras and they know it. Advances in their camera technology seems to embrace the idea that we will take whatever they decide to give us and we will like it.



It's not solely their lenses/lens-lineup. It's their ergonomics, how they render colors, printing systems, Service, etc. etc.

However, it would be nice if they would come out with a FF and APS-C (or H) that has in-body stabilisation, more DR, etc. etc. Pixel shift tech... 

The bottom line is this though, for any of us, can we take the pictures we need/want to take for our business/clientele and/or hobbies? What system will best enable us to capture our vision - in the most effective, efficient, easiest/enjoyable, and repeatable fashion? And a similar question - that we each must answer when deciding on equipment/gear - is what is the bulk of my shooting entail? What are those needs in particular? Because the outlier situations, one can rent equipment for...


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