# 6D or 5D3 (or wait for 7d2?)



## ScottyP (Dec 8, 2012)

Too many variables now. 6D or 5D3 or 7D2?

I have a T3i and the 17-55 Efs lens. I also have the 70-200 f/2.8 mark 2 which is great. I am 90% sure I want to get a FF body for the high ISO ability alone.

Part of me still wants to wait for the 7D2.

But I would not want to buy a super-crop like 7D2 UNLESS it had at least 1 stop improvement in ISO over old crops, preferably 1.3 or 1.6 stops? What are the chances on that?

My PRIMARY goal is improving acceptable IQ at high ISO. I shoot portraits and candids of my girls. Maybe a little soccer. FF is great for that, right? How big a deal should 7D2 be in my thinking? 

I have the $$ ready to buy now, but I don't need to buy now.

Please no one post how if I don't make cash on pictures I should not spend money on equipment! 


Thanks.


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## x-vision (Dec 8, 2012)

There is a very good chance that the 7DII will be announced in January or February next year. 
If you can wait that long, you will be able to make a more informed decision. 

I fully expect that the 7DII will have an improved ISO performance. 
Still, it's hard to believe that it will be able to match the 6D in ISO.

So, if ISO is of utmost importance to you, getting the 6D makes sense even now (especially if you have a FF itch ).
Good luck.


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## verysimplejason (Dec 8, 2012)

Go for 6D if IQ is more important than reach and your budget can't reach the 5D3. 6D + lens + AF = 5D3 + AF. You decide what's more important and what you really need. 7D2 only if you need the extra reach and FPS.


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## Marsu42 (Dec 8, 2012)

ScottyP said:


> My PRIMARY goal is improving acceptable IQ at high ISO. I shoot portraits and candids of my girls. Maybe a little soccer. FF is great for that, right? How big a deal should 7D2 be in my thinking?



That really sounds like you should get a ff camera (and maybe a tc for soccer).



x-vision said:


> There is a very good chance that the 7DII will be announced in January or February next year.
> If you can wait that long, you will be able to make a more informed decision.



Announcement date seems to be April, too - seems more likely to me that this is the on for the 7d2, otherwise it'd be too close to the 6d.



x-vision said:


> I fully expect that the 7DII will have an improved ISO performance.
> Still, it's hard to believe that it will be able to match the 6D in ISO.



But the 7d might up also the mp count for competition's sake, meaning that the iso performance might not make as a large jump as some people expect - the 7d2 will be also a success if they just do a minor improvement with more mp and add all the latest features.


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## rpt (Dec 8, 2012)

If you are not missing (too many) shots, I'd say wait till the summer. Patience and procrastination pays!


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## ishdakuteb (Dec 8, 2012)

i would start with an "if".... if canon 7d mark ii can produce an image like either fuji x-e1 or x-pro, it would be worth to wait... i am still loving my canon 7d even though i have my 5d iii. i like both crop frame and image quality at high iso of full frame....


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## candyman (Dec 8, 2012)

x-vision said:


> There is a very good chance that the 7DII will be announced in January or February next year.
> If you can wait that long, you will be able to make a more informed decision.
> 
> .................




That may be true, but as Marsu42 already said, April could be true as well.


@ScottyP
Announcement and actual availability to purchase are two different things. It is highly possible that the 7D MKII may be available in September 2013.
All in all speculations.


Look for what specifications in a camera are really important to you and if you need it now, don't wait and miss those great shots you can do now.


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## serendipidy (Dec 8, 2012)

rpt said:


> If you are not missing (too many) shots, I'd say wait till the summer. Patience and procrastination pays!



+1
First in line pay more for their new toys.


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## Cory (Dec 8, 2012)

I'm in the same boat with IQ my main priority, but after lots of thought I decided to not give up the reach advantage of a crop. My current camera's a T1i. I'd probably love a 6D, but my 100 and 200 primes are perfect for indoor volleyball. 
Comparing my shots with those in Sports Illustrated, for example, I'm doing pretty well. I think it's a combo of GREAT lenses and learning how to use my camera. Keep in mind I don't know what I'm talking about, but I have a sense that using the best lens(es) possible and constantly improving technique are more important than the body (as long as your body's at least pretty good) and that the main benefit might be high ISO performance. My T1i isn't horrible, but isn't too bad at 6400 and I think the good lenses make up for much of that in the IQ that they offer.
So I've decided to wait for the 7D II. I was going to maybe get a 6D for general photography and a 7D II for sports, but I'd rather focus on one camera and learn everything possible about it than potentially getting confused by two complicated bodies.
Again, I have no idea what I'm saying, but it seems to possibly make sense.


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## M.ST (Dec 8, 2012)

Wait what is coming next year.

Don´t buy a product directly after the annoncement. You waste a lot of money and you have many errors.


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## Marsu42 (Dec 8, 2012)

M.ST said:


> Wait what is coming next year. Don´t buy a product directly after the annoncement. You waste a lot of money and you have many errors.



You obviously have inside knowledge into this, but summing up 1. "next year" (sometime) + 2. "don't buy after announcement" will shift the next good "window" for a purchase of the yet not announced equipment to late 2013 :-o

If someone doesn't want to wait that long may be smart to at least wait for the next premium/enthusiast announcements because I'd expect the current gear (6d/5d3) to drop in price afterwards - ff is not for everyone because of the tele lens prices.


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## robbymack (Dec 8, 2012)

sounds like a 6d would fit the bill. after seeing the iso comparisons of the 6d and 5diii I think unless you really need all the features of the 5diii (build, af, etc) the 6d is the way to go. If the burst rate on your t3i is good enough for you when shooting sports you won't have any issues with a 6d there other than loss of reach. Then again you can always slap the t3i on there when you'll need the extra 60% in coverage. One thing I would caution you is that you won't find and a FF lens that is comparable to the 17-55 2.8 in terms of being able to go from moderate wide to portrait lengths on both ends. Your ff options either come with the trade off of reach or f stop. That being said I own and love the new tamron 24-70 so if you need a gp zoom and don't want to fork out a small fortune for the new canon go that route or get the 24-105 in the kit.


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## Dylan777 (Dec 8, 2012)

As a 5D III owner and I tried 6D for 2days.

When compare to your current t3i
1. 6D = better high ISO
2. 5D III = better high ISO, more precise AF, and better ergonomics, ok fps
3. 1D X = better high ISO, more precise AF, super ergonomics, and top-speed fps(you get to delete more ;D)

4. 7D II = no real spec, weak rumors, especially no hand-on, therefore no comments.

If soccer is not a primary reason, then I vote for 6D. It's great FF for entry level, portrait, and candid. You will see huge improvement in IQ and higher ISO.


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## Artifex (Dec 8, 2012)

Cory said:


> Keep in mind I don't know what I'm talking about, but I have a sense that using the best lens(es) possible and constantly improving technique are more important than the body (as long as your body's at least pretty good) and that the main benefit might be high ISO performance.



It seems to me that you know exactly what you are talking about! 
Although I love talking about gear as much as the next guy, in the end, what really matters is the talent of the photograph, and not how sophisticated is his camera. For instance, most of my favorite stills where taken before the invention of AF and DSLR, so it seems that it is always possible to take great pictures without perfect AF and high frame rates.

Also, as far as "technical quality" goes, the lens matters much more than the body; for me, you are far better with an low-end body and high-end lens than the opposite. Except for ISO performance, most of the low-end body problems can be overcome by the photograph with a bit more effort, and even for ISO, it is sometime possible to find a solution to use lower ISO and keep a good exposure. Of course, everyone has his own way of taking picture, which is affected by what he is shooting; I personally uses manual focus 99.99% of the time and manual exposure 100% of the time, so I might be bias in my opinion. It is always more about choosing the camera that feels right for you than the one with the biggest numbers in the specs.


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## Cory (Dec 8, 2012)

Artifex said:


> Cory said:
> 
> 
> > Keep in mind I don't know what I'm talking about, but I have a sense that using the best lens(es) possible and constantly improving technique are more important than the body (as long as your body's at least pretty good) and that the main benefit might be high ISO performance.
> ...


Thanks for saying. I was fishing for that.
On a side note, I'm undecided between a 70-300L or 300 4.0 IS to complement my 100 2.0 and 200 2.8. The zoom or 300 prime would be for outdoor sports/events. The 100 and 200 are PERFECT beyond belief for indoor sports.
Much appreciated.


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## scottkinfw (Dec 8, 2012)

If you look at your needs/desires as stated, you are more interested in portrature, with some sports. A full frame would be the better bet. If you are primarily interested in sports/wildlife, the 7DII (depending on specs) would be the way to go. I have the 5D3 and haven't followed the 6D so can't comment.

I would also advise against being first adopter. You get bragging rights and the undiscovered problems that go with it. Plus, price will drop if you wait a few months.


sek


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## bdunbar79 (Dec 8, 2012)

rpt said:


> If you are not missing (too many) shots, I'd say wait till the summer. Patience and procrastination pays!



Especially procrastination 

Soccer is tough to shoot even with an effective focal length of 200mm. It is sometimes tough even with my 300mm lens. However, if you're not doing it much, and your main focus (gosh I crack myself up) is candids and portraits of your girls, then I would personally go FF and shoot RAW. Those photos are priceless, and you can't get them back. Each day is a day farther away from when they were that age.


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## Dylan777 (Dec 8, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> rpt said:
> 
> 
> > If you are not missing (too many) shots, I'd say wait till the summer. Patience and procrastination pays!
> ...



+1....I have a 4yrs daughter. Last week she did a ballet recital with her class mates on stage. I carried 24-70 and 70-200 with me. I only have one 5D and decided to stay with 24-70 for wider shots. Her performance was 3mins long, there was no time to switch lenses. Moments like this, I wish for 2nd body to mount my 70-200. 

Hope BH & Adoroma will have some deals on 5D III this coming X-mas. If the price is around $2500 - $2700, I get another one. 

Like you said "Those photos are priceless, and you can't get them back"


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## ScottyP (Dec 9, 2012)

I think you are correct that I would be a perfect candidate for FF. I have almost no interest in wildlife unless it is kind enough to land on my patio for easy shooting. Not too serious in the sports either. What I do shoot is my kids, and often indoors with less than perfect light, and I don't like to mess with flash when I can avoid it.

I also like the idea of keeping the T3i and even using 2 bodies at the same time. I would, however, probably sell the 17-55 if I got a FF with a 24-105 or 24-70.

I very, very nearly bought a 5D3 during the Monday sales a couple weeks ago. The one thing that stopped me was a.) wondering if the 6D could do the job just fine, and b.) worrying what the heck is the deal with 5D3 focusing in low light?

Has a consensus been reached on that 5D3 AF assist lag question? Some say it is the somewhat weak AF beam on 580 and 600 speedlites, but others say it is bad with the 430's too. Some say a Chinese speedlite may (will?) fix the problem. Some suggest you ignore focus confirmation and just mash the shutter button all the way. No one seems to be sure a firmware fix could do anything or not. Still others say they don't even notice a problem, or that maybe there is only a "bad batch" of bodies out there.

Has anyone specifically tested the 6D for af-assisted  focuing speed? Can anyone say for sure it is faster with AF assist than the 5D3 or not?


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## RS2021 (Dec 9, 2012)

x-vision said:


> There is a very good chance that the 7DII will be announced in January or February next year.
> If you can wait that long, you will be able to make a more informed decision.



So... Even the potential announcement is a rumor ... that means canon will have it soon on shelves in 2014... and he can have those awesome pictures in time for christmas sometime-to-be


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## rpt (Dec 9, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> Especially procrastination


I am a fan of that. It saved me money...


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## Ricku (Dec 9, 2012)

Wait for 5D4 imo. ;D

But seriously. Nikon's success with the exmor sensor has forced Canon's hand. 

Canon's new sensor tech is just around the corner, which means that the 5D3 will get a very short race, and be replaced by the 5D4 sooner than later.

_And then I woke up.._


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## RS2021 (Dec 9, 2012)

Ricku said:


> Wait for 5D4 imo. ;D
> ....
> 
> _And then I woke up.._



I am surprised it wasnt 5D5


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## rpt (Dec 9, 2012)

Ricku said:


> _And then I woke up.._


LOL!


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## LewisShermer (Dec 10, 2012)

5Diii, deffo

5Diii! it's mental off the rails. I had this issue last week, played with the 6D and 5Diii for a bit and I've never known anything like it. it's totally rad! I use a 1Ds mkiii at work and the 5Diii blows that MF out of the water on everything from handling to IQ. I can't believe I never got one before like 10 years ago...

for serous though, if it's not going to totally smash the bank, go for the 5Diii. you might be missing the WiFi thing but for everything else it's bonkers.


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## DavidPhares (Dec 10, 2012)

If you are shooting portraits of you kids, why the sweat over high ISO? You will get great results from anywhere between 100 and 400 ISO. Unless you are an equipment junky, do not upgrade just to get super high ISO camera functions, unless you want to shoot in the dark! 

You are right about the full frame being better. Due to the larger area, the pixels are larger and they can gather more light, with results in lower noise problems. I have a 5D Mk II, and I love it, because I keep it
within its performance boundaries. Great pics.


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## K-amps (Dec 10, 2012)

Adcom used to have a Print ad: and one is reminded of it:

"Good things come to those who wait"

You cannot go wrong by waiting till march next year. The 7Dii will be great, but if they up the MP on it, then the ISO might not see a marked improvement (as you might get from the 6D). 

Just wait and see how it plays out.


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## K-amps (Dec 10, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> Hope BH & Adoroma will have some deals on 5D III this coming X-mas. If the price is around $2500 - $2700, I get another one.



Dylan... if you have $2600 spare... perhaps you might consider the 7Dii (instead of a 5diii) as a second body... your 70-200 will get more reach.


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## Dylan777 (Dec 10, 2012)

K-amps said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Hope BH & Adoroma will have some deals on 5D III this coming X-mas. If the price is around $2500 - $2700, I get another one.
> ...



Hi K-AMP,
How are you? Buying any new toys lately?

7D II, crop will help in reach and fps. However, I care more about IQ under low light. I'm not a big fan of flash photography.

Dylan


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## Marsu42 (Dec 10, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> I'm not a big fan of flash photography.



Personally, I'm a big fan of flash photography, but in a way you cannot or can only barely see there was artificial light involved - and to let the background meld with the lit object high iso capability is important as well.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Dec 10, 2012)

a 1/2 stop improvement for a new model is typical, do not expect 1 stop or more in a 7D MK II unless they go to a rear illuminated sensor. They are very near the limit that their current technology permits. There is only limited space for wiring to run between photosites, and making the wiring smaller is not a option, the voltage floats too high and crosstalk results in a poor image.
Rear illuminated sensors allow larger wiring and that allows you to boost the sensitivity of the photosites with less noise.


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## MARKOE PHOTOE (Dec 10, 2012)

IMHO, you should know what the current models are capable of by renting one or both and trying them out. You can take this to the bank, but Canon will always be producing new cameras with new features to stay competitive with company 'X'. Hopefully each new series will be better than the previous. If nothing else, technology loses value in 12 months anyway. But I always have a camera with me for that 'shot' that didn't get away.

For me personally, I'm ready to sell my 7D in preparation of what lies ahead for the 7D2. I've got a 5D3 and 1D4 that covers all I need (or want) at the moment. Selling my 1D4 is next in line.

Best of luck.


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## Marsu42 (Dec 10, 2012)

MARKOE PHOTOE said:


> Hopefully each new series will be better than the previous.



But factually the next camera will be *different* than the previous, meaning the various tradeoffs will be shifted around, and that includes the price. For example when the 60d was released many people quickly got a 50d because of the regressions (afma, body) and since they didn't want to get a 7d.

Thus the only certain factor is that specific camera bodies (not lenses) will drop in price, well, except if your local economy collapses :-o


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## Dylan777 (Dec 10, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not a big fan of flash photography.
> ...



Here is my "super-skill" of PP when I need an object stands out under low light    J.K

Most of my photos are just family moments - kids running around the house and family vacation etc... nothing special.

I did have a chance to play with the studio lighting few months back. Yes....it's very nice to have proper lighting when we serious about photography.

For now, I like FF plus my fav 24-70 + 70-200. I'm thinking about 50L this x-mas, since I have over $500 cash value with Crutchfiled.


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## elflord (Dec 10, 2012)

ScottyP said:


> But I would not want to buy a super-crop like 7D2 UNLESS it had at least 1 stop improvement in ISO over old crops, preferably 1.3 or 1.6 stops? What are the chances on that?.



If you're talking high ISO SNR, the chances are next to none -- as others have stated more like half a stop. Take a look at the DxO webpage (in particular, the graphs of SNR and dynamic range vs ISO for different cameras). The progression over the years has been incremental at best. For example, the 5DIII is not substantially better than the 5DII (in terms of sensor performance)


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## K-amps (Dec 11, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> K-amps said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



I might go with a 85mm f1.8 or maybe not... the 70-200 got that range covered. Nothing is very exciting at the moment apart from $7000+ lenses which I don't have.... Maybe the 50L.... not sure... :-\

You got the 5D3 for low light... if you want better low light/ High ISO... the 6D is very good isnt it?


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## verysimplejason (Dec 12, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



This would look a lot better if you're using a fill-in flash. Scenes like these, I'll go full manual, meter on the background (most probably, requiring high ISO), and use an external fill-in flash to illuminate the foreground. Even a cheap third party flash will greatly improve these kind of shots. Just my 2 cents.


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## skitron (Dec 12, 2012)

Check out what the latest Capture One (v7) "lift shadow" tool does to a jpeg:


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## skitron (Dec 12, 2012)

And here's the Capture One v7 "lift mids" RGB curve, a touch of negative vignette and a dash of exposure and contrast added to the "lift shadow":


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## Crapking (Dec 12, 2012)

no offense meant, but that post-production processing software may be fine for Facebook but nothing I would consider printing. 
Getting it right "in camera" (fill flash/better low light performance of the sensor, proper metering, etc) should be the goal.


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## skitron (Dec 12, 2012)

Crapking said:


> no offense meant, but that post-production processing software may be fine for Facebook but nothing I would consider printing.
> Getting it right "in camera" (fill flash/better low light performance of the sensor, proper metering, etc) should be the goal.



No offense taken and I totally agree with getting it right "in camera". The point is to show there are alternatives after the snap-shot is taken and the scene has been left behind. As for the software itself, it comes bundled with the Phase One medium format cameras. In this case I pretty much maxed what it could do with the given jpeg.


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## Dylan777 (Dec 12, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



@ verysimplejason - I was playing with *Marsu42* reply. I'm sure we can do better PP in LR.

This was taken when I was in China with my co-workers. It was raining and I didn't have a ext flash with me and of course 5D III doesn't have built in flash


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## skitron (Dec 12, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> I was playing with *Marsu42* reply. I'm sure we can do better PP in LR.
> 
> This was taken when I was in China with my co-workers. It was raining and I didn't have a ext flash with me and of course 5D III doesn't have built-flash flash.



I figured as much  . LOL, probably have too much time on my hands this morning and again, the point was nothing more than showing something that can be used in an extreme case.


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## Dylan777 (Dec 12, 2012)

K-amps said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > K-amps said:
> ...



K-amp,
I played with 6D for 2days at local camera shop(friend of mine is a store manger). Let just say this.....6D is not for me - lack of AF points, not enough x-cross type, size, no joy stick etc...

6D performs fine under low light. Center AF is only point that can get you precise focus, outer pts are almost worthless. Did I mention don't try 6D in AI servo? 

I just pull trigger on 50L + B&W Clear filter yesterday. All items will be here this fri.


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## skitron (Dec 12, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> K-amp,
> I played with 6D for 2days at local camera shop(friend of mine is a store manger). Let just say this.....6D is not for me - lack of AF points, not enough x-cross type, size, no joy stick etc...



Did you have any thoughts on how 6D rendered color and light dynamics? I actually sent mine back because of those and went for a 5D3 instead. But still wondering if I just got a dud since nobody else seems to be noticing anything along those lines.


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## Dylan777 (Dec 12, 2012)

skitron said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > K-amp,
> ...



Hi skitron,
No comments on rendered color and light dynamics. I was more focus on AF system and low light/higher ISO. It's a great camera for those jump from Rebel to entry FF. 

I prefer 5D III and will get another one as 2nd body. Hope B&H and adoroma will have some deals on 5D III  this x-mas.


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## sleepy (Dec 12, 2012)

Great topic, because I have a similar problem. If I'm taking pictures of my kids (ages 5 and 3), and they rarely sit still, wouldn't that be akin to sports photography (ie. fast moving subjects)? I do the portraits too, but when I'm outside with them, they're constantly running around.

I feel like I might be better off with a camera with a great AF system like the 7D or 7Dii (?). What do you think?


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## dexstrose (Dec 12, 2012)

I know I'm late in the game for posting, but I went for the 6d. The image quality is super for what I like doing. Candid shots, event/fluff work, family and friends and everything else. 

I upgraded cause I was tired of my old camera not doing what I wanted it to do and the image quality. Couldn't afford the 5dIII, I saw the deals and was tempted. I had to realize what I can afford. So I went for the 6d for the lighter body and low light capabilities. 

I have big hands and don't have a problem with the 6d layout. I really like it. I can adjust the top settings and the back buttons with my index finger and thumb while looking through the view finder. The outer points are pretty good in my opinion, but I'm not a tester. 

With the 70-200 2.8 non IS, the focusing is super fast. I'm really happy for what I can do with the camera. The 24-105 is my dedicated lens. Its a great combo for a lot of things I shoot.

What ever you decide, you can't go wrong. 

Here is a sample from my 6d just walking around by the Berkeley Pier.


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## skitron (Dec 12, 2012)

sleepy said:


> Great topic, because I have a similar problem. If I'm taking pictures of my kids (ages 5 and 3), and they rarely sit still, wouldn't that be akin to sports photography (ie. fast moving subjects)? I do the portraits too, but when I'm outside with them, they're constantly running around.
> 
> I feel like I might be better off with a camera with a great AF system like the 7D or 7Dii (?). What do you think?



I thought the 6D AF was decent enough in AI servo when doing a "kid test". I sent mine back due to color and dynamic rendering issues, but nobody else has noticed anything along those lines so mine was apparently just a dud in that respect. But imo, the AF passed the kid test...definite improvement over 5D2.


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## wickidwombat (Dec 13, 2012)

Cory said:


> Artifex said:
> 
> 
> > Cory said:
> ...



the 300 f4L IS is a great lens i love its handling on my 5D bodies older design with only 2 stop IS thats noisy but i picked mine up on ebay for $800 its a fantastic bang for buck lens and its sharp wide open


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## scuba_steve (Dec 13, 2012)

I am struggling with the same decision. 90% of my shots are indoor sports...with fast moving action and poor lighting.

I have a 40D now...and my go to lens is a Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS II...and my walk around is the Canon 17-55 f2.8. I have a couple of other lenses, but these two are responsible for most of my shots.

A 7D Mk2 would let me keep the 17-55 and give me great sports photography. A 6D would give me the better low-light performance that I crave. I suppose if I had to do it today, I would go for the 7D Mk2...if it existed...and looked like it had decent specs...and the price was not ridiculous. I suppose the 7D's final specs and price will be the final decision maker for me.


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## ScottyP (Dec 17, 2012)

scuba_steve said:


> I am struggling with the same decision. 90% of my shots are indoor sports...with fast moving action and poor lighting.
> 
> I have a 40D now...and my go to lens is a Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS II...and my walk around is the Canon 17-55 f2.8. I have a couple of other lenses, but these two are responsible for most of my shots.
> 
> A 7D Mk2 would let me keep the 17-55 and give me great sports photography. A 6D would give me the better low-light performance that I crave. I suppose if I had to do it today, I would go for the 7D Mk2...if it existed...and looked like it had decent specs...and the price was not ridiculous. I suppose the 7D's final specs and price will be the final decision maker for me.



Funny we have the same lenses, and the same thought process, although you are more seriously into the sports shooting. I would love to keep with crop (a 7D2) and my 17-55, but between the fact that it must be at least a year or more away, and the fact it probably won't gain more than 1/2 stop in ISO performance, I think I am deciding to go FF.


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