# Lower end EOS R body to omit the touch bar



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 8, 2019)

> We’re told that the entry-level EOS R camera coming sometime in 2019 will not feature the touch bar, which is quite a polarizing feature on the current Canon EOS R camera.
> We suspect that this has been part of the entry-level EOS R plan for a while, and not because the user and media feedback about the touch bar has been mixed.
> We don’t think Canon will give up on the feature after one iteration either and we expect to see it in some form on the higher end EOS R body also possibly coming in 2019.
> The coming firmware update for the EOS R may correct some of the issues that some users have experienced with the EOS Rs touch bar.



Continue reading...


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## Adelino (Jan 8, 2019)

I look forward to this lower end R. Despite my original thought that Canon would not use the 6D2 sensor again, this one probably will have it. It'll be ok for me if the price is right.


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## Chaitanya (Jan 8, 2019)

I rented R last week just to give it a try and even I found the position of touch bar a little odd. While certainly useful if it were tilted at an angle anticlockwise by a few degrees just enough to get out of way of thumb it wouldnt be accidentally activated.


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## rsdofny (Jan 8, 2019)

APS-C...That will be nice.


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## vjlex (Jan 8, 2019)

I still can't believe this is actually coming with nary a word of a high-end R.


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## H. Jones (Jan 8, 2019)

This may sound a little bit hypocritical as someone who won't buy the R series until they release a pro version, but I think Canon has the right idea with releasing a lower-end R as soon as possible. It sure seems like the biggest segment of the MILC market is the ~$1000 camera section. Build it up from the base and then release the A9-style R camera that will head straight into my camera bag. 

I recently evaluated the EOS R from Canon Pro Services and actually fell in love with it. It was a brilliant camera, but it just isn't fast enough yet for breaking news and sports, which is the bulk of how I make my money. But for hanging around with family or some slower general news assignments, there just wasn't any way to beat it. It was a perfectly wonderful experience in most slow photography, landscapes, etc, all while being a great, usable size.


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## BeenThere (Jan 8, 2019)

I think it would need to be less than $1500. U.S. to differentiate sufficiently from first R to attract low end buyers. What would they leave off? Would it simply be a lower res camera with no touch bar and slightly fewer options in the menu?


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## Bob Howland (Jan 8, 2019)

shunsai said:


> I still can't believe this is actually coming with nary a word of a high-end R.


There doesn't seem to be a lot of correlation between the class of cameras being announced and the class of lenses of being announced. At this rate, it'll be 3 years or more before I buy anything R.


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## JonSnow (Jan 8, 2019)

canon listens... nice.
i hope it will have a joystick.



> We don’t think Canon will give up on the feature after one iteration either and we expect to see it in some form on the higher end EOS R body also possibly coming in 2019


i really hope that is not that case and canon made the decision based on feedback.
i mean show me one reviewer that says he not rather have a joystick instead of the MOFO-Bar


> The coming firmware update for the EOS R may correct some of the issues that some users have experienced with the EOS Rs touch bar.


well canon can´t correct that it will not work like a joystick.
canon could give us both.. sure.


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## jaayres20 (Jan 8, 2019)

I absolutely love the Touch Bar and will be very disappointed if it is removed in future pro bodies. I use it to manually adjust the kelvin WB and have come to rely on its usefulness.


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## nchoh (Jan 8, 2019)

Bob Howland said:


> There doesn't seem to be a lot of correlation between the class of cameras being announced and the class of lenses of being announced...



Canon pursues all segments and they will be figuring out how to segment the R line. Using the M line as a guide on how they will develop the R line, they will be releasing different models with different capabilities/ ergonomics combinations (ev dial, no EVF, etc) to see how the market reacts.

Lots of existing Canon shooters who have EF glass. A lower end R camera with a kit lens would be sufficient to drive a lot of sales.


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## amorse (Jan 8, 2019)

shunsai said:


> I still can't believe this is actually coming with nary a word of a high-end R.


Frankly, I'd settle for more information on which type of high-end R is coming - a speed demon a la 1DXii or a resolution monster a la 5DsR.


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## bellorusso (Jan 8, 2019)

That touch bar nonsense reminds of the same thing on Macbooks. Crap that people don't need, don't want and would really wish they didn't have to pay for. And yet Apple and Canon push unwanted creepy tech on us. We want better sensors - Canon gives us touch bar. OMG. I just can't.


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## djack41 (Jan 8, 2019)

Canon has to do so much catch-up work to remain competitive. The wolves are circling and moving quickly. Will the Canon glacier move?


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## peters (Jan 8, 2019)

What can they possible do to make an even lower end EOS R?

They released the pretty much best lenses of their entire lineup and only a mirrorless 6d to use them... and now they release an even worse mirrorless camera?
It is REALY time for a professional EOS R, not another toy... what else are these high end lenses made for? Instagram posts with a 3000$ lense attached to a toy camera?


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## peters (Jan 8, 2019)

amorse said:


> Frankly, I'd settle for more information on which type of high-end R is coming - a speed demon a la 1DXii or a resolution monster a la 5DsR.


I realy hope for a EOS R C with decent video specs. The form factor would be awesome. I generaly think sports cameras are better with a mirror (at least at the moment) and the mirrorless form factor is better suited for video.


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## amorse (Jan 8, 2019)

bellorusso said:


> That touch bar nonsense reminds of the same thing on Macbooks. Crap that people don't need, don't want and would really wish they didn't have to pay for. And yet Apple and Canon push unwanted creepy tech on us. We want better sensors - Canon gives us touch bar. OMG. I just can't.


To add a point of contrast, I actually really appreciate that Canon tries weird stuff like that. They haven't been afraid to try adding features which may or may not become that incredible new feature people need. That's how we get new tech that makes a difference to the way we shoot. I agree, the touch bar didn't do it for me when I tried an R, and dual pixel raw is another one that didn't work out, but I am comfortable with them trying new stuff. I really like the control ring idea, I really like the adapter with a filter insert, I really like DPAF, and the list goes on. Sure, I am very interested in improved sensor tech like many others, but I really don't believe that's the be all and end all of photography.


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## mb66energy (Jan 8, 2019)

I do not understand some stubbornly repeated criticism: Buy a camera if you like it or do not buy it if you do not like it. Cameras are IMO made to take photos and not to spend a life in a glass box for display (including feature lists). And not everyone needs a camera with all bells and whistles - sometimes I appreciate my "inferior" 200D / M50 setup where I (= my cameras) aren't attractive for thieves etc.

About a lower end EOS R: If it is something like a M50 on steroids with very good IQ, reasonable speed and a basic but well working set of functions + high reliability at 1200...1500 EUR maybe I will do the step. 24 MPix with very good low light capability would be fine for my EF lenses and some FD vintage glass. A must are flippy screen and electronic level. A control ring EF adapter would be fine to give me an additional control ring.

Bodies go, lenses stay.


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## LesC (Jan 8, 2019)

I'd gladly do away with the touch bar if it meant the addition of Built in GPS instead. I'd buy one straight away to complement my 6D MKII


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## Talys (Jan 8, 2019)

Well, that's good 

The touch bar should go. Good on Canon for trying something new, but it is just awkward. Just put a programmable clicky dial in its place and I'll be happy.


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## wockawocka (Jan 8, 2019)

I thought the R was entry level. It's cheap already.


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## Talys (Jan 8, 2019)

LesC said:


> I'd gladly do away with the touch bar if it meant the addition of Built in GPS instead. I'd buy one straight away to complement my 6D MKII



While I would prefer a GPS to a touch bar, too, I don't think these are mutually exclusive  Just two separate buttons (not joined) that are programmable, a dial, or some other old-school control that goes into that valuable space would be appreciated. I do really like the GPS in the 6D2. I actually never really appreciated how much I would like it until I owned the camera for about 6 months and had accumulated a whole bunch of (few thousand) wildlife photos.


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## Nelu (Jan 8, 2019)

BeenThere said:


> I think it would need to be less than $1500. U.S. to differentiate sufficiently from first R to attract low end buyers. What would they leave off? Would it simply be a lower res camera with no touch bar and slightly fewer options in the menu?


I bet you for this price you don't even get the crop in the 4K video!


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## Talys (Jan 8, 2019)

wockawocka said:


> I thought the R was entry level. It's cheap already.


I think that the A7III created downward pressure on FF ILCs, and we'll eventually see $1500 USD FF bodies, or at least $2000 FF MILC kits. Remember, Canon has a non L RF kit consumer grade lens coming out this year, would be a good bundle with a new body that's a little lower end.

24-26 megapixel, reduced advanced AF modes, little lower upper end ISO, less weather sealing, 0.5-1 FPS slower, little smaller, maybe different battery, is what I expect.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 8, 2019)

bellorusso said:


> That touch bar nonsense reminds of the same thing on Macbooks. Crap that people don't need, don't want and would really wish they didn't have to pay for. And yet Apple and Canon push unwanted creepy tech on us. We want better sensors - Canon gives us touch bar. OMG. I just can't.


I can’t speak for the EOS R’s touch bar, but I quite like the feature on my Mac – for example, when giving talks I find that many AV systems only support a duplicated display (where the projector mirrors the internal screen, rather than being treated as an extended desktop), and as a result the PowerPoint/Keynote presenter display does not function, meaning no preview of the upcoming slides. The Touch Bar on my Mac shows thumbnails of the slides, allowing me to see what's coming next. 

So, what to you is ‘crap that people don’t need, don’t want’ is to me (and evidently others, like jaayres20’s post above yours) a beneficial and useful feature. Try to remember that your own opinions don’t necessarily represent those of the majority.


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## YuengLinger (Jan 8, 2019)

mb66energy said:


> I do not understand some stubbornly repeated criticism...



You can't understand that people have and express opinions? And that they come to gear forums to discuss them?

Only express praise? Would that be a "discussion"?

Maybe eight or ten or twenty people express the same negative opinion. To you, that is "repeated." But to each individual, that is complaining once about a feature they don't like.

I expect Canon has gotten the message: The touchbar is not indispensable for some of their customers.


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## Karlbug (Jan 8, 2019)

What if this lower end R is without a viewfinder? Because that would effectively distinguish it from EOS R. And make it cheaper for Canon. I know that some people rarely use viewfinders and always use LCDs. (Personally I am the opposite.) I don't know how big this niche is, but as there is no lower end FF body under 6D, this is a new territory for Canon. In EOS M the lowest bodies also don't have VF. Maybe it would be a good combination with something like a compact RF 24-70/4. Would you buy FF camera without VF?


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## JonSnow (Jan 8, 2019)

amorse said:


> To add a point of contrast, I actually really appreciate that Canon tries weird stuff like that.



problem is when it comes at the cost of a useful feature.. i doubt you enjoy that.

most people i heard from who bought a EOS R would rather have a joystick than the touch bar.


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## JonSnow (Jan 8, 2019)

angrykarl said:


> What if this lower end R is without a viewfinder? Because that would effectively distinguish it from EOS R. And make it cheaper for Canon. I know that some people rarely use viewfinders and always use LCDs. (Personally I am the opposite.) I don't know how big this niche is, but as there is no lower end FF body under 6D, this is a new territory for Canon. In EOS M the lowest bodies also don't have VF. Maybe it would be a good combination with something like a compact RF 24-70/4. Would you buy FF camera without VF?



LOL.. nah.


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## Talys (Jan 8, 2019)

I'm not sure if I'm crazy and the only person on Earth to feel this way, but I am quite happy with 5D4 and R sensors, at least from the perspective of photographs they take. Not that I wouldn't appreciate little improvements of course, but I really focus on other things, now.

The main things I would like out of R+ is a little more fps in ai servo and an extra rear dial.

What would make me instantly preorder one is if an innovation made it so that flash illuminators worked with mirrorless.


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## YuengLinger (Jan 8, 2019)

angrykarl said:


> What if this lower end R is without a viewfinder? Because that would effectively distinguish it from EOS R. And make it cheaper for Canon. I know that some people rarely use viewfinders and always use LCDs. (Personally I am the opposite.) I don't know how big this niche is, but as there is no lower end FF body under 6D, this is a new territory for Canon. In EOS M the lowest bodies also don't have VF. Maybe it would be a good combination with something like a compact RF 24-70/4. Would you buy FF camera without VF?


I would not, but I like the way you are thinking outside the box.


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## PerKr (Jan 8, 2019)

Well, they do need to basically replicate the EF-mount lineup of bodies so why not? EF will disappear over time in favor of RF and entry-level bodies are necessary to attract new users (who aren't willing or able to pay $3-4k just to get started). Eventually a sub-$500 RF-mount body is needed (it would be nuts expecting people to start out with EF-M and then switch to RF later)

Lower resolution EVF, no touchy-slidey-bar, no touchscreen... There are probably plenty of little things that could be done to lower manufacturing cost. Plus a lower margin could be accepted for something expected to sell in higher volumes and some artificial limitations could be implemented to motivate users to upgrade.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 8, 2019)

angrykarl said:


> What if this lower end R is without a viewfinder? Because that would effectively distinguish it from EOS R. And make it cheaper for Canon. I know that some people rarely use viewfinders and always use LCDs. (Personally I am the opposite.) I don't know how big this niche is, but as there is no lower end FF body under 6D, this is a new territory for Canon. In EOS M the lowest bodies also don't have VF. Maybe it would be a good combination with something like a compact RF 24-70/4. Would you buy FF camera without VF?


Agree that it would distinguish it from the EOS R, but maybe in the same way a new ‘inexpensive’ Tesla would be distinguished from current models by coming without a steering wheel. 

While there are M models without a VF, I really don’t see that happening with a FF MILC. But who knows...maybe with a sturdy hotshoe EVF that replicates the hoshoe for a flash (and for which Canon could charge a premium), it might happen.


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## PerKr (Jan 8, 2019)

angrykarl said:


> Would you buy FF camera without VF?



If it was very cheap and had an awesome fully articulating screen, then maybe for certain uses (product photography). But it would have to be exceptional and would be relegated to niche use in the studio. Most likely I would just not consider it at all.


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## mb66energy (Jan 8, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> You can't understand that people have and express opinions? And that they come to gear forums to discuss them?
> 
> Only express praise? Would that be a "discussion"?
> 
> ...



I do have nothing against critical arguments against/for some features etc. - but I want arguments not "we expected better xy but got yz" or similar remarks ... and "repeated" was meant not only for this thread.


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## criscokkat (Jan 8, 2019)

PerKr said:


> Well, they do need to basically replicate the EF-mount lineup of bodies so why not? EF will disappear over time in favor of RF and entry-level bodies are necessary to attract new users (who aren't willing or able to pay $3-4k just to get started). Eventually a sub-$500 RF-mount body is needed (it would be nuts expecting people to start out with EF-M and then switch to RF later)
> 
> Lower resolution EVF, no touchy-slidey-bar, no touchscreen... There are probably plenty of little things that could be done to lower manufacturing cost. Plus a lower margin could be accepted for something expected to sell in higher volumes and some artificial limitations could be implemented to motivate users to upgrade.



I suspect touch screens are here to stay on all levels. Consumers expect them. The cost for a touch screen display and a non touch screen display is roughly the same these days because of cell phones. 

I'd even argue that the viewfinder might have the same resolution because it's cheaper in quantity, just like they use the same sensor in multiple market segments. However the refresh rate of that screen might be less, jut like the fps is different between a high end aps-c and a low end one using the same sensor.


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## criscokkat (Jan 8, 2019)

Talys said:


> I think that the A7III created downward pressure on FF ILCs, and we'll eventually see $1500 USD FF bodies, or at least $2000 FF MILC kits. Remember, Canon has a non L RF kit consumer grade lens coming out this year, would be a good bundle with a new body that's a little lower end.
> 
> 24-26 megapixel, reduced advanced AF modes, little lower upper end ISO, less weather sealing, 0.5-1 FPS slower, little smaller, maybe different battery, is what I expect.


I think FF cameras will hit that mark soon, but there Canon likes to have tiers. I still think the possibility of a larger than APS-C but smaller than Full frame is a possibility, and it lends itself to marketing well with a small/medium/large setup. The medium could use the R lenses and be a stepping stone but could still be a step up from M.


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## stochasticmotions (Jan 8, 2019)

Although I really like the touch screen for moving the autofocus point around in certain situations, I would really like to have the joystick as well....especially since I shoot with with gloves on most of the winter. Sony finally did things right having both (even if the touch screen is not as useful for other things on the sony) on the A7III generation. I'm really looking forward to a Canon camera with focus points across the full sensor that can keep up to birds in flight as is as reliable as the video AF on the current DP canons.


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## nchoh (Jan 8, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Canon has to do so much catch-up work to remain competitive. The wolves are circling and moving quickly. Will the Canon glacier move?



Yes, Canon is a glacier, while Sony is ice floes in the ILC market.

Your wolves circling analogy is too simplistic. I prefer to analyse the situation more realistically. One the on side you have the camera/imaging companies; Canon, Nikon, Minolta. On the other side you have the electronics conglomerates; Sony, Panasonic, Samsung. Canon and Nikon will fight for their lift to remain in the camera market, particularly the ILC/ pro/ enthusiast market. For Sony and Panasonic, cameras are just one of the electronic consumer goods that they sell.Very much like how Sony decided not to pursue dominance in TV or follow through on XQD, so too did Samsung just totally drop ILC camers. Based on this alone, I would say Canon will make a strong showing in MILC in the next few years. Sony might then find it unprofitable to do MILC an drop out of this business.

Moreover, Canon has a support network which is crucial for professional photography. Sony needs to to set up a similar support structure if it intends to compete at the top end. It is still not clear if Sony will commit such resources stop at just selling through retailers.

It is a competitive market where every company needs to catch-up in different areas to remain competitive.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 8, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Canon has to do so much catch-up work to remain competitive. The wolves are circling and moving quickly. Will the Canon glacier move?


Yes, you can really see how Canon needs to catch up to remain competitive by looking at ILC market share, which Canon has dominated for the past 15+ years, and continues to dominate today. 
Yeah...the grizzly bear had better watch out, the salmon are circling and moving quickly.


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## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2019)

I think Canon has to release a lower-end R body because currently the R lineup's naming convention is simply too sensical. You have just the R. They need a few more models to create their required level of naming convention contradiction and confusion. Like when they introduced the 77D or the M50. They need to have multiple numbers that seem to go in a certain order so that the next camera can contradict expectations. Where a normal person might think of the upcoming low end body as the R- and the rumored high-end body the R+, Canon will name them something like the EOS R10 and the EOS R79.5S. And then the 4th body to come out will be called the Vixia M(R).


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## josephandrews222 (Jan 8, 2019)

H. Jones said:


> This may sound a little bit hypocritical as someone who won't buy the R series until they release a pro version, but I think Canon has the right idea with releasing a lower-end R as soon as possible. It sure seems like the biggest segment of the MILC market is the ~$1000 camera section. Build it up from the base and then release the A9-style R camera that will head straight into my camera bag.
> 
> I recently evaluated the EOS R from Canon Pro Services and actually fell in love with it. It was a brilliant camera, but it just isn't fast enough yet for breaking news and sports, which is the bulk of how I make my money.* But for hanging around with family or some slower general news assignments, there just wasn't any way to beat it. It was a perfectly wonderful experience in most slow photography, landscapes, etc, all while being a great, usable size*.



(emphasis added)

What you've posted here describes, perfectly, my experience with the M6.


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## bokehmon22 (Jan 8, 2019)

I'm hoping EOS R Pro with dual card slot and IBIS will come out before this model in Q1/Q2 2019


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## peterzuehlke (Jan 8, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Huh? So class leading niche lenses and they want the next R to slot in below the current one. I always thought Canon was brilliant at marketing. I remember when Nikon came out with the F2 and Canon came out after with the F1. Seems like Canon always wanted to be second out with the little better, little less expensive product and same or a little better lens quality at a lower price. Seems like things are different now.


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## Adelino (Jan 8, 2019)

BeenThere said:


> I think it would need to be less than $1500. U.S. to differentiate sufficiently from first R to attract low end buyers. What would they leave off? Would it simply be a lower res camera with no touch bar and slightly fewer options in the menu?



As the prime target market for this camera I would LOVE it to be just like a 6D2! If they could increase DR (not likely) that would be appreciated but not a deal breaker at sub 1500 USD.


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## dwilz (Jan 8, 2019)

I wouldn't be surprised if the current R model gets phased out to be replaced with a lower end and a higher end model.


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## hmatthes (Jan 8, 2019)

bellorusso said:


> That touch bar nonsense reminds of the same thing on Macbooks. Crap that people don't need, don't want and would really wish they didn't have to pay for. And yet Apple and Canon push unwanted creepy tech on us. We want better sensors - Canon gives us touch bar. OMG. I just can't.


Like the Macbok Pro with Touch display, in time I have learned that the R's touch bar is useful in the moment. I use the touch bar for focus mode selection. Very handy. Yes. I want a joystick for selection, but this thingy works well for focus mode.
{Macbook Pro's touch display has become valuable as apps utilize it! Come On Lightroom -- we need you!}


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## tmroper (Jan 8, 2019)

The most annoying thing for me about the touch bar on the EOS R I tested was, it reminded me of some kind of console game (or even just kids electronic game) from the 80s or 90s, but I still can't put my finger on which one. It keeps nagging at me...


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## Adelino (Jan 8, 2019)

nchoh said:


> Canon pursues all segments and they will be figuring out how to segment the R line. Using the M line as a guide on how they will develop the R line, they will be releasing different models with different capabilities/ ergonomics combinations (ev dial, no EVF, etc) to see how the market reacts.
> 
> Lots of existing Canon shooters who have EF glass. A lower end R camera with a kit lens would be sufficient to drive a lot of sales.



No EVF on a FF would be horrendous, likely lower resolution EVF though. I agree that an inexpensive R would really drive sales with APS-C upgraders!


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jan 8, 2019)

Canon needs to realize that touch sensitive control is not the future for every device even if it has become the standard for the most widespread devices, cell phones.

For something like a cell phone where your undivided attention is usually focused on what you're doing with the controls, touch sensitive controls are fine. They're easy to use and you can do unique things with them.

For a device like a camera where your primary focus is not on the camera itself but rather what you're pointing it at, you need physical controls with tactile feedback. Otherwise you end up hunting around for the controls, not being able to use them precisely, and bumping them when you don't mean to.

Nothing this silly touch bar does couldn't be replicated by a simple rocker switch in its place, and then you could actually feel what you're doing instead of trying to feel out (no pun intended) what is happening with this touch bar, which gives you no feedback.

If you look at Ford vehicles from the early 2010s, they made all of the buttons in the center console touch sensitive buttons and bars that you swipe. People hated it. They went back to buttons after a few years. When you're focused on the road in front of you, it's better to have a physical button that gives you tactile feedback rather than some touch sensitive thing that you have to hunt around for. The same thing goes for a camera.

Just because touching and swiping has become the control method of choice on phones, that doesn't necessarily translate to every other device, especially ones that have controls that you have to manipulate while your main focus is on something else. Canon needs to learn this. Touch sensitive controls in this application isn't futuristic or forward thinking, it's just bad design for this application.


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## Random Orbits (Jan 8, 2019)

I really don't understand why the touch bar is as hated as it is. At worst, one can use it as a two separate buttons with a slide function. With the EVF, you see the change you are making unlike with the DSLR where tactile feedback was more necessary. It is also nice that the functions can be set separately for stills and video mode.

And for those that want the joystick, you can move the focus point with the arrow keys. It's not in the same spot as where the joystick normally is, but you quickly find out how tedious it is to move it point by point amongst thousands of AF points -- this is not a SLR with much fewer AF points which works with the joystick. OR you can use two wheels to jump points horizontally and vertically.

My guess is that the lower R model will also have fewer AF points. 200-300 will do as long as they're spread across the sensor, and it will decrease the processing/complexity of the AF system which will allow Canon to reduce cost and price it lower.


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## Adelino (Jan 8, 2019)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Canon needs to realize that touch sensitive control is not the future for every device even if it has become the standard for the most widespread devices, cell phones.
> 
> For something like a cell phone where your undivided attention is usually focused on what you're doing with the controls, touch sensitive controls are fine. They're easy to use and you can do unique things with them.
> 
> ...


Imagine an F1 steering wheel with touch controls!


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 8, 2019)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Just because touching and swiping has become the control method of choice on phones, that doesn't necessarily translate to every other device,


Sure it does. The defining moment for me was when my then 3-year old daughter (she’s nearly 11 now), who’d had an iPad for a few months, didn’t like what was on TV...so she walked up to it and started swiping her fingers across the flat screen trying to change the channel. 

Touching and swiping are the future.


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## SaP34US (Jan 8, 2019)

I hope they announce both the lower R and the Pro R at the same time. The lower R released in the Q1 or Q2 and Pro R between for release in Q1 and Early Q3.( no later the 2nd wk of August)
I would think that Canon would take the touch bar off the Pro R rather the entry level R unless the lower R is going to be smaller the EOS R is already.


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## Otara (Jan 8, 2019)

I like the idea of the touch bar on my R a lot, but currently havent found a way to use it reliably. At the very least I think it hasnt been introduced in a way where the benefits are immediately obvious to many. Its a bit vexing because I want to make various controls more accessible, but so far I find its either too slow, or too easy to touch by accident. A button you have to press, this you just have to brush, and my hand moves around a fair bit to access other controls. 

It could just be a matter of practise, but Ive had it for a while now. Similar issues with the lens control rings, too close to the mount for me..


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## gmon750 (Jan 8, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Canon has to do so much catch-up work to remain competitive. The wolves are circling and moving quickly. Will the Canon glacier move?



In your bubble perhaps. In what we live in called "reality", Canon is doing just fine. They are coming out with more world-class RF lenses, and had a good, solid start with their R-body. Nothing in your prophetic belief has any truth to it.


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## Jethro (Jan 8, 2019)

There is speculation that they will tweak the operation of the touchbar on the EOS R via the firmware update - but query how much they can actually do. If it involves including more options for the swipe or the edges, that's possible, but I suspect that the limits of the tactile element are in the hardware rather than the firmware. My own experience so far is that I don't love it, but with patience (and using the visual response on the VF as someone above mentioned) it is useful. I use the swipe for magnification.


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## Jethro (Jan 8, 2019)

Otara said:


> so far I find its either too slow, or too easy to touch by accident. A button you have to press,* this you just have to brush*, and my hand moves around a fair bit to access other controls.
> 
> It could just be a matter of practise, but Ive had it for a while now. Similar issues with the lens control rings, too close to the mount for me..


Depending on how you set it up, it can be activated by resting your finger for a second or so (not just brushing). That means not immediate response (as in a button), but the result is that you can get variable response after it is activated.


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## Andrei (Jan 8, 2019)

I just want Canon to release a camera with :
24 megapixels
Very very good in low light
Very very good DR (above 14 stops) 
A new formula for eye autofocus at least equal as sony a73
A better evf
No touch bar... But 2 programable buttons
The round wheel from 5d3 or 6d2 with redirectional inside
Wi fi... Gps... 
8 frame per second in all mode
4k at least 30fps with no crop... And 120 fps 1080
C log in camera and 10bit in camera
We need all this things since 2014...
So canon...i will by 2 camera instant if you will put on table for 2000 euro in 2019 this camera


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## gmon750 (Jan 8, 2019)

My niche-wish-list is for a pro-level R body and a major manufacturer of underwater housings like Aquatica or Nauticam to release a housing for that camera. Until then, I'll continue enjoying my fully-capable 5DMIII. The people that their shiny new MILC cameras make dSLR's suddenly inoperable. Laughable, especially considering my photos from my 5DM3 and my friend's Sony a9 look practically indistinguishable when viewed side-by-side. The main difference is that I can dive for days without changing my 5D battery, where my buddy has to change after each 1-2 dives. No thank you.. Mirrorless isn't there for me just yet.


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## Foxeslink (Jan 8, 2019)

Andrei said:


> I just want Canon to release a camera with :
> 24 megapixels
> Very very good in low light
> Very very good DR (above 14 stops)
> ...




There is no better EVF at the moment in Mirrorless industry ...


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## addola (Jan 8, 2019)

rsdofny said:


> APS-C...That will be nice.



I don't think Canon would release an APS-C RF mount camera in the near future. I also wonder what would happen to the EOS M. I would think they'll keep that as their APS-C, and the RF as their FF because they would have to make "designed for APS-C" lenses for the RF mount.


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## dsut4392 (Jan 8, 2019)

gmon750 said:


> My niche-wish-list is for a pro-level R body and a major manufacturer of underwater housings like Aquatica or Nauticam to release a housing for that camera. Until then, I'll continue enjoying my fully-capable 5DMIII. The people that their shiny new MILC cameras make dSLR's suddenly inoperable. Laughable, especially considering my photos from my 5DM3 and my friend's Sony a9 look practically indistinguishable when viewed side-by-side. The main difference is that I can dive for days without changing my 5D battery, where my buddy has to change after each 1-2 dives. No thank you.. Mirrorless isn't there for me just yet.



Waiting for camera releases follows the same rule as diving - "Don't hold your breath"!


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## magarity (Jan 8, 2019)

[email protected] said:


> Where a normal person might think of the upcoming low end body as the R- and the rumored high-end body the R+


I predict the upcoming low end will be the EOS r (lower case) and the high end will be the EOS *R *(bold, italics)


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## dirtyvu (Jan 8, 2019)

I like the touchbar. I mapped temperature to it so swiping or tapping will cause me to quickly and instantly change the degrees. And I get to avoid the default templates. If it was a PROGRAMMABLE dial, that would be fine too. As long as it lets me change something without first pressing a button (this is why I've always hated the ISO button because you have to hit the ISO button before you could turn the dial; the way my EOS R is set up, I can change ISO, exposure, and shutter speed immediately without having to press anything).


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## dak723 (Jan 8, 2019)

Jethro said:


> Depending on how you set it up, it can be activated by resting your finger for a second or so (not just brushing). That means not immediate response (as in a button), but the result is that you can get variable response after it is activated.



I rented the R a month or so ago, and if memory serves correctly, you can customize the touch bar to make it work just like a button with no delay. I believe you can disable the swipe, disable one side, and the delay and just customize one side to be a just like a button.


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## dirtyvu (Jan 8, 2019)

peters said:


> What can they possible do to make an even lower end EOS R?
> 
> They released the pretty much best lenses of their entire lineup and only a mirrorless 6d to use them... and now they release an even worse mirrorless camera?
> It is REALY time for a professional EOS R, not another toy... what else are these high end lenses made for? Instagram posts with a 3000$ lense attached to a toy camera?



No point in discussing the camera if you're calling it a mirrorless 6D. You clearly haven't tried it or looked at the pictures and videos produced by it.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 9, 2019)

For those of us with large hands, the touch bar is in the way. I just turn it off, I don't mind it being there if some use it, thats great. I see it being similar to video, I don't take video's, but I don't care if its there in the rare event that I shoot a 10 second video.


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## Treyarnon (Jan 9, 2019)

dirtyvu said:


> No point in discussing the camera if you're calling it a mirrorless 6D. You clearly haven't tried it or looked at the pictures and videos produced by it.


Canon rarely differentiates their cameras by image quality (for example the 6D1 actually had a better sensor than the 5D3 or the way Canon uses the same 24mp APSC sensor across most APSC range)
Instead Canon tends to differentiate the models by other features - build quality, size and control layout being the prime examples - but also often AF system, number of card slots and frame rates. From this rationale the feature set of the R is more of a '6D+' model than a '5D' style model, so a 'mirrorless 6D' is an apt descriptor - and that has nothing to do with any comment on the pictures a 5D or 6D can or cannot produce.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 9, 2019)

Treyarnon said:


> Canon rarely differentiates their cameras by image quality (for example the 6D1 actually had a better sensor than the 5D3 or the way Canon uses the same 24mp APSC sensor across most APSC range)
> Instead Canon tends to differentiate the models by other features - build quality, size and control layout being the prime examples - but also often AF system, number of card slots and frame rates. From this rationale the feature set of the R is more of a '6D+' model than a '5D' style model, so a 'mirrorless 6D' is an apt descriptor - and that has nothing to do with any comment on the pictures a 5D or 6D can or cannot produce.


Canon also differentiates by price, and there too, the EOS R is closest to the 6-series.


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## Treyarnon (Jan 9, 2019)

Totally mad idea - but comments about which features Canon would/could sacrifice to make a low cost full frame camera got me thinking a bit.

So what if Canon built one fully featured mirrorless camera (say for conjecture a mirrorless 5D5) - rather than release it for £3.5 or even £4k - Canon puts it out at £1.5k, but with many of the advanced features disabled. Then, if we want some of those features - faster burst rate, recording onto a second card slot, 4K recording etc , we log onto the Canon website and pay a fee to unlock those features. 

A bit of a radical departure from the present way of doing things - and yes producing a 'fully featured' camera with the processing power and second card slot etc already in place will cost more to produce. However there could be associated savings, such as only need to research and develop one model rather then a whole range. And if it allows more people to buy the camera with the features they want, that could be good (and heaven knows photographers like upgradeability!)

Total madness or a glimpse into the future?


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## brad-man (Jan 9, 2019)

Total madness. _Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of nerfdom_...


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## aceflibble (Jan 9, 2019)

Taking away the touch bar makes it a higher-end model as far as I care


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## aceflibble (Jan 9, 2019)

Treyarnon said:


> Totally mad idea
> [...cut to save space...]
> Total madness or a glimpse into the future?


Doesn't work for hardware. This method does work out for software—in fact it's the business model that most audio processing software and also most video games have employed for several years—but hardware has much higher up-front costs which stop this from being viable.

As it is, camera bodies already make almost no profit. The general guide is that there is £50 profit for every £1000 that a body sells for. So a £1000 body represents about £50 profit, a £2000 body makes about £100 profit, and so on. Of course specific bodies may make a little bit more or a little bit less, and there are sales and rebates and everything else like that to consider, but fifty quid for every grand laid down by the customer is the _general_ guide.

So if you were to make a body which would normally sell for £3500, representing around £175 profit, and instead sell it for £1500, you're basically guaranteeing a nearly two-grand loss on every sale. And even if a few users were going to pay up more to unlock some features, most won't. Even if they all did, you'd still only be back to breaking even. Whatever small amount you saved in production would not outweigh the massive losses.

Of course another problem with hardware sold like this is that it's too easy for people to take their device offline and jailbreak it, getting access to every feature without paying. DRM can stop people doing the same with software—though even then it rarely helps—but there's no such option with hardware. Unless you were to insist that the camera has wi-fi on at all times and only works when connected to an internet connection. Even then, people would jailbreak it, mod it, crack it open and get it working offline and with everything unlocked for free.

The closest you could get which wouldn't be prone to piracy would be a modular body, like medium format systems use. Make one basic shell that you can then snap different viewfinders, rear screens, and sensors/processors into. That has worked out well for a few medium format systems, but they also have the benefit of being extremely niche products which can command a high price tag to begin with, and they have far larger profit margins than 35mm (and smaller) cameras.


But Canon don't really need to branch into anything like that anyway. Fact is, cameras don't _need_ to be a big deal. Camera bodies, other than medium and large format, have _always_ been loss leaders. Lenses and accessories are where profit is. It's why Canon started the EF mount with some terrible bodies, instead putting all their R&D into the new lenses; they've done the same with the new RF mount. Bodies just exist to get people into the ecosystem. You know that every body you sell will also sell a lens, probably a spare battery, maybe something like a case or grip. Then half of all people will buy a second lens, maybe a third. A quarter of people or so will buy multiple lenses, batteries, grips, cases, flashes, etc. There are comparatively very few people who will ever buy multiple bodies, or at least not buy new bodies often enough for the money to add up. By leaving bodies as loss leaders and focusing on lenses and accessories instead, you won't make a huge profit off of everyone, but you're making a _sustainable_ profit and the minority of people who will buy big kits of lenses will really pay off for you.


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## YuengLinger (Jan 9, 2019)

Treyarnon said:


> Totally mad idea - but comments about which features Canon would/could sacrifice to make a low cost full frame camera got me thinking a bit.
> 
> So what if Canon built one fully featured mirrorless camera (say for conjecture a mirrorless 5D5) - rather than release it for £3.5 or even £4k - Canon puts it out at £1.5k, but with many of the advanced features disabled. Then, if we want some of those features - faster burst rate, recording onto a second card slot, 4K recording etc , we log onto the Canon website and pay a fee to unlock those features.
> 
> ...


I think you are onto something, but Canon should go a step farther and implement a subscription model such as Adobe has with the Creative Cloud. You'd pay monthly to keep features enabled, which means the camera would have to "check in" with Canon every month too. How easy it would be for Canon to simply shut down the EVF, etc. if payments are late.


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## cpreston (Jan 9, 2019)

I like the idea of a touch bar. I think it might work better if it was activated by a double tap or something. Maybe each double tap could activate a new up or down control mode such as kelvin or exposure or aperture. I find the hold to activate frustrating and it is too easy to accidentally change a setting if it is always activated.


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## YuengLinger (Jan 9, 2019)

Everybody likes a friendly bar, but a touch-bar seems likely to lead to misunderstandings.


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## TAF (Jan 9, 2019)

Treyarnon said:


> Totally mad idea - but comments about which features Canon would/could sacrifice to make a low cost full frame camera got me thinking a bit.
> 
> So what if Canon built one fully featured mirrorless camera (say for conjecture a mirrorless 5D5) - rather than release it for £3.5 or even £4k - Canon puts it out at £1.5k, but with many of the advanced features disabled. Then, if we want some of those features - faster burst rate, recording onto a second card slot, 4K recording etc , we log onto the Canon website and pay a fee to unlock those features.
> 
> ...




That is the approach that Agilent has taken with some of their electronic test equipment. You buy a basic function generator (which looks just like the top of the line one), and then pay to enable the various advanced features you find you want. Eventually, you end up with the top of the line model, only in increments.

It will be interesting to see if they try something like this.


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## TAF (Jan 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon also differentiates by price, and there too, the EOS R is closest to the 6-series.




So perhaps the next model will be the EOS Rç (cent symbol...closest thing I could find on my keyboard), and the pro model the EOS R$.


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## dak723 (Jan 9, 2019)

peters said:


> What can they possible do to make an even lower end EOS R?
> 
> They released the pretty much best lenses of their entire lineup and only a mirrorless 6d to use them... and now they release an even worse mirrorless camera?
> It is REALY time for a professional EOS R, not another toy... what else are these high end lenses made for? Instagram posts with a 3000$ lense attached to a toy camera?



You do understand that Canon is building a system that they hope will last for decades. And that virtually no one needs a camera immediately. So, professional photographers can certainly wait another 6 months to a year (or more) to see what the R lineup will look ultimately look like. 

And that the R can certainly be used professionally - as can any FF camera and many crop cameras as well.

And that they have released 4 lenses so far - so saying that they have released the "pretty much best lenses of their entire lineup" is rather silly, in my opinion. 

And calling the "R" a "toy" and insinuating that those that will buy the R and even a lower end future R will be doing nothing more than posting them on instagram is totally insulting to both Canon and those photographers that are using the R to produce professional level photographs.

It will take years to build their R system. What exactly is your hurry?


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 9, 2019)

peters said:


> What can they possible do to make an even lower end EOS R
> 
> ?



Easiest answer: smaller sensor
Additionally: no mechanical shutter, less expensive EVF, etc

Reuse of some components, e.g. the body and mount, would spread the non-recurring costs over a wider pool, allowing more aggressive pricing on subsequent models.


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## Ozarker (Jan 9, 2019)

peters said:


> What can they possible do to make an even lower end EOS R?
> 
> They released the pretty much best lenses of their entire lineup and only a mirrorless 6d to use them... and now they release an even worse mirrorless camera?
> It is REALY time for a professional EOS R, not another toy... what else are these high end lenses made for? Instagram posts with a 3000$ lense attached to a toy camera?



Cameras that cost hundreds and even thousands are not toys. Besides, the photographer/glass makes the biggest difference. Sorry about your Instagram.


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## djack41 (Jan 9, 2019)

With the specs and quality of cameras offered by Sony, Nikon, Fuji etc,. the EOS R better be the low-end camera! Canon has to get into the game.


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## Ozarker (Jan 9, 2019)

djack41 said:


> With the specs and quality of cameras offered by Sony, Nikon, Fuji etc,. the EOS R better be the low-end camera! Canon has to get into the game.


Canon is in the game. Canon is still #1... by a wide margin.


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## unfocused (Jan 9, 2019)

dak723 said:


> ...calling the "R" a "toy" and insinuating that those that will buy the R and even a lower end future R will be doing nothing more than posting them on instagram is totally insulting to both Canon and those photographers that are using the R to produce professional level photographs...



Also insulting to the thousands of talented professionals who post to Instagram.


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## unfocused (Jan 9, 2019)

I'm generally uninterested in mirrorless, but a serviceable low-cost full frame with decent high ISO performance that is quieter than the 5DIV would be very interesting to me for event coverage.


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## Ozarker (Jan 9, 2019)

IF I ever go "R" it will be whatever the high end iteration is. Otherwise, just give me a 5D Mark IV or V. Perfectly happy in the EF world for now.


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## Otara (Jan 9, 2019)

Jethro said:


> Depending on how you set it up, it can be activated by resting your finger for a second or so (not just brushing). That means not immediate response (as in a button), but the result is that you can get variable response after it is activated.



I wasnt very clear - thats the 'too slow' bit I was referring to, ie where you use 'rest the finger' option instead. Hopefully they'll add more options and one will work better for me.


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## vjlex (Jan 9, 2019)

Maybe this is their way of righting their screwy trickle-up strategy when it comes to specs. Canon's lower-end bodies generally have newer and sometimes better features than the higher-end bodies because the higher-end bodies are usually the first of the new generation and are released less-frequently. Perhaps by starting with 2 lower-end R bodies, they can fully feature load the higher-end when it finally does premiere.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 9, 2019)

amorse said:


> Frankly, I'd settle for more information on which type of high-end R is coming - a speed demon a la 1DXii or a resolution monster a la 5DsR.



The high resolution R will come before a 1Series R. The 5DS/r II development was cancelled and I'm sure it will be replaced with an R. Pros are slower to adopt to 'new' systems, especially sports pros, and with the Olympics being in Japan in 2020 I can't imagine the 1DX MkIII not being there.


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## Jaysheldon (Jan 9, 2019)

Interesting that no one has suggested a lower end R body might have fewer than 5,000 focus points. Seems to me that along side a lower MP sensor that's one of the biggest ways of cutting cost


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## Ozarker (Jan 9, 2019)

Jaysheldon said:


> Interesting that no one has suggested a lower end R body might have fewer than 5,000 focus points. Seems to me that along side a lower MP sensor that's one of the biggest ways of cutting cost


Well, I wasn't going to say anything... but I could probably live with just 200 or so focus points.


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## Sean C (Jan 9, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> I think you are onto something, but Canon should go a step farther and implement a subscription model such as Adobe has with the Creative Cloud. You'd pay monthly to keep features enabled, which means the camera would have to "check in" with Canon every month too. How easy it would be for Canon to simply shut down the EVF, etc. if payments are late.



And they can ad built in a mandatory facebook tracking app, ads that display every power up and tracking metadata added to every shot.
Meanwhile, each camera will have DVD style region lock so you can only use the camera in zones you've purchased. Act now to get the temporary vacation license pack for your next trip!
The camera is of course licensed per user, so you'll need the family pack license to let anyone else use it.

And for a serious comment, we don't know what Canon's best performing mirrorless at this moment would look like. If Canon doesn't see a camera they could release now beating current flagships I bet they wait until they can release one that does (at a reasonable price). Unless they really manage a breakthrough on focus speed and battery life I expect to see a mirrorless 1DX(ish) camera last and it'll be tougher to pull of and gain the least.

One wish I have: The viewfinder isn't optical anymore! Move it to the side so my nose has room to the side of the camera! (as with a rangefinder) It doesn't need to look like a SLR now that the prism is gone. Hopefully they make that change by the time they release a 5D(ish) body. Then it'll be a comfortable in landscape as it is in portrait. (at least this requires no new tech)


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## M_S (Jan 9, 2019)

I really don't understand the move to release an entry level R camera now, where you can only buy high end lenses for it. If someone was interested in buying into the new system via an entry level camera, he probably would want to use entry level priced lenses to come with it. Since this is not in the portfolio of canon right now in the R line, this really doesn't make sense for me. Who might be the target audience for it? Who will buy an entry level camera with a 50 F1.2 or a 28-70 F2? Looking at the prices right now, 3600 Euros for a body, kit lens and adapter isn't cheap. On the same page, comparing the features of the EOS-R with other cameras in the mirrorless market and with DSLRs: What could entry mean in this case as this more or less entry already? Really puzzled about this.


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## Ivan Muller (Jan 9, 2019)

*'What can they possible do to make an even lower end EOS R?*

*They released the pretty much best lenses of their entire lineup and only a mirrorless 6d to use them... and now they release an even worse mirrorless camera?
It is REALY time for a professional EOS R, not another toy... what else are these high end lenses made for? Instagram posts with a 3000$ lens attached to a toy camera? *

I'm one of those that bought this 'toy R' camera for my photography business. I have none of the new RF lenses and cant see myself getting any soon, except perhaps the 35mm IS.... wich looks nice and compact...

I think this is probably the best camera I have ever had...not that this says much in itself in that my first FF Canon was a 5d2 and then the 6D, both of which I had for about 4 years respectively - so some may point out that I don't own the real 'professional' Canon bodies that are made for the Pros's and so I may not really now what I'm talking about, and they may have a point of course...

But as a working commercial photographer doing mostly portraits, architecture, interiors, industrial and some event photography etc etc, both of these cameras served me well with almost all my pics nice and sharp and well exposed. I also don't have any of the fast expensive L lenses much sought after by the 'Pros' ..yet l have never had a client complain about my image quality ito sharpness, DR, highlight recovery or Bokeh etc etc...

My *workhorse lenses *are the 17-40 L, not my favorite but good enough for work, the 24 TS which is one of my favorites, and a 70-300L which works well for portraits, events and industrial photography. The rest of my lenses are the common and garden variety non 'L' EF lenses like the 40mm F2.8, 50mm F1.8, and 100mm F2.8 macro that I use a lot for portraits as well. The lenses I use most for my personal work is the 40mm f2.8, the Tamron 35mm f1.8 and the 70-300L for my once a year excursion to the KNP.

I have also had the 6D2 briefly but I found the R to be much improved and better suited to the way I Iike to use a camera especially ito AF convenience.

Most of my fellow commercial photographer friends work with 'older' cameras but on the other hand almost all the keen amateurs I know have the latest and the greatest and have a lot of* angst* about noise, DR and fast lenses etc...

*What do I like most about the R? *Its got a dual axis spirit level which helps enormously with architecture and interiors and it can connect with my I pad so that my clients can see what I'm doing without touching my camera. The grip is really nice and I like that its got a flippy screen which also works well when my camera is on a tripod, which it is mostly when I do commercial work. It also works seamlessly with my EF lenses, in fact my 'keeper' rate for sharp in focus images is even better than before and I like it that MF is so easy and that I can use a focus point right up into the corners and edge of the sensor. I also like it that dust is hardly a problem and that I can use all my old batteries on the R. The silent shutter is nice to have and also the C-RAW which saves a ton of HD space.
And yes this sensor with its 30mp is much nicer than the one on my 6D2 with good recoverable detail in the highlights and also in the shadows and the images are good enough at higher iso's...






Enclosed an image from a recent visit to Lesotho. Iso 2000 and printed on a 610x450mm paper with 20mm borders...made with the R and the Tamron 35f1.8 set at 1/90 f3.5 and moderate NR via topaz dnoize...I could probably have skipped the NR because at this A2 size it would not have been visible. The print looks fabulous with tons of detail and no noise visible...but how many of us ever print this large?

*The point I'm trying to make is that we live in good times with really nice choices over all the brands and what we have now probably far exceed what we need.*


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## Bambel (Jan 9, 2019)

Jaysheldon said:


> Interesting that no one has suggested a lower end R body might have fewer than 5,000 focus points. Seems to me that along side a lower MP sensor that's one of the biggest ways of cutting cost



I don't think so. A DPAF sensor has millions of AF points (in fact, ALL pixels are AF points) and it's just a matter of software as how many AF points they are represented.

Other than that: a low end R could use the M50 EVF, less MP and less fps. I would buy something like that.

b.


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## Hector1970 (Jan 9, 2019)

I can see Canon introducing a cheaper R camera to build the customer base. For myself I’d prefer a more pro model but to support the lens they need to sell as many cameras as possible.
If I were them I’d bring out APS-C range from xxxxD to XD and kill off the M series which I think is unlikely to be supported for too much longer as it’s like a branch of evolution sure to die off soon.
Bulk of volume sales are in APS-C area today. New R lens (non-l ) for an APS-C could be a major growth driver (if partially canibalising existing lens)


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## GMCPhotographics (Jan 9, 2019)

I'm with you there Hector1970.
At the moment, the R mount and camera are a curiosity but not a serious contender to my current photography. I have a large range of ef lenses that I'm very happy with and use regularly. At the moment I'm using a pair of 5D3 bodies and may move to a pair of 5D4's by the end of the year. The current Eos R isn't the kind of camera I would want to rely on as my primary camera. It's an immature product (although very good for a first attempt). It lacks the user interface that I am familiar with and frankly...the 5D3/4 spank it silly in terms of ergonomics and user friendliness. The R needs to adopt a more typical interface and not expect current users to learn the "new way". I can see an R pro with a few selected R specific lenses being in my bag at a future date. But I suspect that it'll be backup or a camera for leveraging a few of the R benefits. 
The other concern to me is the price point...the camera and lenses are way over priced for what they are when compared to the EF and 5D4 / 6DII models.


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## Treyarnon (Jan 9, 2019)

M_S said:


> I really don't understand the move to release an entry level R camera now, where you can only buy high end lenses for it. If someone was interested in buying into the new system via an entry level camera, he probably would want to use entry level priced lenses to come with it. Since this is not in the portfolio of canon right now in the R line, this really doesn't make sense for me. Who might be the target audience for it? Who will buy an entry level camera with a 50 F1.2 or a 28-70 F2? Looking at the prices right now, 3600 Euros for a body, kit lens and adapter isn't cheap. On the same page, comparing the features of the EOS-R with other cameras in the mirrorless market and with DSLRs: What could entry mean in this case as this more or less entry already? Really puzzled about this.


You are aware that you can buy EF lenses to fit the R aren't you? and there are plenty of value lenses there.


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## Treyarnon (Jan 9, 2019)

GMCPhotographics said:


> I'm with you there Hector1970.
> The other concern to me is the price point...the camera and lenses are way over priced for what they are when compared to the EF and 5D4 / 6DII models.


'Value' is a personal thing. 
You could spin it around and say the R gives you 5D4 image quality at 50% less cost (comparing on RRP at launch) 
I notice that the price of the 6D2 has dropped considerably since the R arrived, but the price at launch was not that dissimilar.


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## GMCPhotographics (Jan 9, 2019)

Treyarnon said:


> 'Value' is a personal thing.
> You could spin it around and say the R gives you 5D4 image quality at 50% less cost (comparing on RRP at launch)
> I notice that the price of the 6D2 has dropped considerably since the R arrived, but the price at launch was not that dissimilar.


But we live in today and the R wasn't available at the 6DII's launch. So my statement still stands...the Eos R is expensive compared to a 6DII...for little real world photographic benefits. The fact that it's currently priced matched to the vastly more capable 5D4 says volumes. If the Eos R was more feature and UI matched to the 5D4 then I would be more persuaded. But today in today's market with my current equipment needs....I'll pass until Canon launch something more worthy. I find it ironic and most of the R mount lenses are pro orientated but the only body so far released is the weakest part of the system.


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## BurningPlatform (Jan 9, 2019)

I think one of the goals with the lower level R is to prevent price erosion of the current EOS R.


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## tron (Jan 9, 2019)

So omitting the touch bar is a threat or a ... promise?


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## djack41 (Jan 9, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Canon is in the game. Canon is still #1... by a wide margin.


Fiddle while it burns! Fanboy, the "game" is innovation and product development. Canon's CEO has publicly confessed that his company has fallen behind in both. The entire industry is moving to FF mirrorless and Sony dominates. A legacy ecosystem will only carry Canon so far. Whether ISO, AF, Dynamic range, frame rate, or 4k, Canon is behind.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 9, 2019)

djack41 said:


> The entire industry is moving to FF mirrorless and Sony dominates.


Yes, more companies are offering FF mirrorless now...but APS-C ILCs still massively outsell FF models, and given the cost differential that’s not going to change anytime soon. Even so, Canon still sells more full frame cameras then Sony.



djack41 said:


> Whether ISO, AF, Dynamic range, frame rate, or 4k, Canon is behind.


Yeah, they’re only ahead in sales, where they are crushing the competition. Sorry that you’re having such trouble grasping basic facts and reality.

Troll on, bub!


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## Ozarker (Jan 9, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Fiddle while it burns! Fanboy, the "game" is innovation and product development. Canon's CEO has publicly confessed that his company has fallen behind in both. The entire industry is moving to FF mirrorless and Sony dominates. A legacy ecosystem will only carry Canon so far. Whether ISO, AF, Dynamic range, frame rate, or 4k, Canon is behind.



1. Why Sony fanboys love coming here...? 
2. Sony no longer dominates in FF mirrorless, which isn't such a big bragging right considering Sony was the only FF mirrorless manufacturer until a couple of months ago.
3. 4k? Not a big deal for me. No video at all would be fine with me.
4. ISO, Dynamic Range, frame rate... I had no idea Canon lags. I must be a happy customer.

What we seem to miss is the fact that the spec sheet doesn't tell the whole story. Canon will be fine. Sony... not so sure. With Canon, Nikon, and others entering the FF mirrorless market, Sony is going to be in serious trouble. Of course 14% market share never was too solid anyway.


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## Foxeslink (Jan 9, 2019)

when will you realize eos R is not an Entry level camera ? my god, i don't get when people says that for real


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## Ozarker (Jan 9, 2019)

BurningPlatform said:


> I think one of the goals with the lower level R is to prevent price erosion of the current EOS R.


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## reef58 (Jan 9, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Well, I wasn't going to say anything... but I could probably live with just 200 or so focus points.



How can you live with 200 points when the competition has more?


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## reef58 (Jan 9, 2019)

M_S said:


> I really don't understand the move to release an entry level R camera now, where you can only buy high end lenses for it. If someone was interested in buying into the new system via an entry level camera, he probably would want to use entry level priced lenses to come with it. Since this is not in the portfolio of canon right now in the R line, this really doesn't make sense for me. Who might be the target audience for it? Who will buy an entry level camera with a 50 F1.2 or a 28-70 F2? Looking at the prices right now, 3600 Euros for a body, kit lens and adapter isn't cheap. On the same page, comparing the features of the EOS-R with other cameras in the mirrorless market and with DSLRs: What could entry mean in this case as this more or less entry already? Really puzzled about this.



I don't know, but people get hung up on "entry" level terminology and equate that to something that doesn't work properly. Canon is the lens leader so it makes sense to push that. So an "entry" level camera with a world class lens along with a good sensor is going to take world class images. Right now mirrorless is not for me, but if I were an event photographer an R with the f2 zoom would be tempting, or their new 50mm prime.


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## [email protected] (Jan 9, 2019)

After several weeks and a proper customization, I came to the conclusion the Touch Bar is a great feature. I think my productivity and ability to control the camera has improved significantly.
Considering the huge gap between initial reviews from "experts" and actual feedback from real users, I came to the conclusion to exclude them from my sources of regular product updates. Stefano


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## Quackator (Jan 9, 2019)

I'm no fan of the touch bar, but I don't bother too much - I simply disabled it.

What does bother me though is the size of the body and grip.
It is too small for my taste, and both control wheels aren't naturally
under thumb and index finger like they used to with the 5D MkIV.
The grip and handling experience of the 5D MkIV is unparalleled
until today, and in darker environments I had a hard time seeing 
what the top display shows - it is too small.

The R is very a fine camera, but unfortunately with crappy ergonomics.

I'd opt for more direct access buttons any day.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 9, 2019)

Quackator said:


> What does bother me though is the size of the body and grip.
> It is too small for my taste...


That applies to most (all?) MILCs – for some, the small size is an advantage (I like being able to literally tuck my ‘travel backup’ EOS M6 + M11-22 in it’s Dashpoint 30 case inside a bag in the space above the lens mounted on the 1D X). For others, it’s an ergonomic challenge. I suspect the challenge will be worse with larger/heavier L lenses – I can hold my 1D X + 70-200/2.8 all day, but doing so with a non-gripped body resulted in a sore hand, and with something like the EOS R that would be even worse.


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## JonSnow (Jan 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yeah, they’re only ahead in sales, where they are crushing the competition. Sorry that you’re having such trouble grasping basic facts and reality.
> 
> Troll on, bub!




Blah blah blah..... i am sure canon shareholders are happy about that. Not that photographers should care. 
I am sure Hasselblad owners would agree. The marketshare of a camera brand does not mean much for me.

Fact is that he is correct. When it comes to AF Tracking, 4K, DR, FPS the EOS R is lacking compared to other FF mirrorless cameras.


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## Ivan Muller (Jan 9, 2019)

*'...the Eos R is expensive compared to a 6DII'*

Personally I think the R is way more camera than the 6D2...the Af imo is much more accurate and works with all my lenses and some that would only work with the centre AF point on the 6D2 and here I'm talking about the Tamron 35m F1.8 and the 100mm non L Canon macro. I thought the 6D2 was more camera than the old 6D in almost every way except image quality, which was about the same. But for me the image quality of the R is a big step up from the 6D2. On the 6d2 I was always aware of the noise, even at low iso but with the R sensor I don't worry about ISO, DR, highlight recovery and stuff like that. The 6D2 felt like a 80D whereas the R feels much more solid and well build. The adapter feels like its part of the body and I don't even notice its there and focus is just solid and consistent, unlike the 6d2 that had some unexplained AF misses which I also experienced on the 80D.

And the centre cluster of AF points on the 6D2 is really limiting when compared to the R where I can put the AF quickly and accurately anywhere on the sensor. MF is just in another league with the R.

I have never tried the 5D4 so I could not comment on how it compares to the R. I dont do sport photography so I cant comment on that either. But for portraits , studio, interiors architecture and events it is a pleasure to use. 

Personally I would buy the R over the 6D2 anyday and I think the price difference is more than worth it. For me the 6D2 feels like 'The Budget' camera compared to the R. When I bought the 6D2 I had quite a bit of buyers remorse but with the R I'm thrilled to use it every time. So I've kept the old 6D for a backup and sold the 6D2.

And did I mention what a pleasure it is not to have to worry about micro adjusting my lenses anymore!!!


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## Ivan Muller (Jan 9, 2019)

*What does bother me though is the size of the body and grip.
It is too small for my taste... *

For me the R has a much nicer grip than the 6D and 6D2. The R has a deeper grip because of the thinner body I presume, when put side by side the R is surprisingly almost the same size as the 6D2, just a little bit smaller but feels the same ito weight. In the shop I looked at the R with the 70-200f2.8 L lens attached and the lens looked and felt heavy and enormous....but I have not held it on a dslr either so cant say how they compare. My 70-300L, much more compact, feels just fine on the R...the only problem is the neck strap which is thinner and more ala M6, it looks nice , but is not comfortable with a heavy lens on my neck...


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## Ivan Muller (Jan 9, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> Blah blah blah..... i am sure canon shareholders are happy about that. Not that photographers should care. I am sure Hasselblad owners would agree.
> Fact is that he is correct. When it comes to AF Tracking, 4K, DR, FPS the EOS R is lacking compared to other FF mirrorless cameras.



So presumably most Canon users that feel that these things where Canon is lacking is most critical for their photography would have changed over to Sony or Nikon by now? Unless of course I suppose that they are a bit like me akin to an ostrich with its head buried in the sand oblivious to how much more satisfying life would be without a Canon mirror less?


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## tron (Jan 9, 2019)

BurningPlatform said:


> I think one of the goals with the lower level R is to prevent price erosion of the current EOS R.


It will not! After it will be introduced, 2 product prices will be subject to erosion


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 9, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> Blah blah blah..... i am sure canon shareholders are happy about that. Not that photographers should care.
> I am sure Hasselblad owners would agree. The marketshare of a camera brand does not mean much for me.
> 
> Fact is that he is correct. When it comes to AF Tracking, 4K, DR, FPS the EOS R is lacking compared to other FF mirrorless cameras.


Market share means nothing to me in terms of choosing a camera system. But when a member troll is claiming that Canon is ‘not in the game’ and is ‘not competitive’, the fact that more people who actually buy cameras are choosing Canon than those manufacturers that are ‘ahead’ is highly relevant. What photographers should care about, and what I believe they *do* care about, is what camera(s) they purchase, and the features offered by those cameras...and more photographers choose Canon than other manufacturers. So while Canon may not be competitive in your mind or in the personal realities of some CR trolls, out here in the real world, where people buy cameras to meet their needs, Canon dominates. 

But you keep on blah blah blahing about your choice to ignore reality. YKNJS.


----------



## SereneSpeed (Jan 9, 2019)

https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...anon-going-with-the-eos-r-do-they-have-a-plan

An excellent and surprisingly transparent discussion with Canon.


----------



## Mikehit (Jan 9, 2019)

Foxeslink said:


> when will you realize eos R is not an Entry level camera ? my god, i don't get when people says that for real


 It is entry level for FF. If your definition if to 'entry level' to photography, then surely that accolade belongs with smartphones and compacts.


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## JonSnow (Jan 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Market share means nothing to me in terms of choosing a camera system. But when a member troll is claiming that Canon is ‘not in the game’ and is ‘not competitive’, the fact that more people who actually buy cameras are choosing Canon than those manufacturers that are ‘ahead’ is highly relevant. What photographers should care about, and what I believe they *do* care about, is what camera(s) they purchase, and the features offered by those cameras...and more photographers choose Canon than other manufacturers. So while Canon may not be competitive in your mind or in the personal realities of some CR trolls, out here in the real world, where people buy cameras to meet their needs, Canon dominates.
> 
> But you keep on blah blah blahing about your choice to ignore reality. YKNJS.



Some peope talk about specs some peope like you talk about marketshare.
The product with the best feature or usability is not always the bestselling.... you know there is a thing like MARKETING. Most customers are clueless. Like millions of rebel users who shoot in full auto mode 100% of the time.

Also canon has a lot of users who stick to canon since the 70s.... they will always buy canon no matter if it is an inferior product or not.

So much about your "REALITY".


----------



## Mikehit (Jan 9, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> Some peope talk about specs some peope like you talk about marketshare.
> The product with the best feature or usability is not always the bestselling.... you know there is a thing like MARKETING. Most customers are clueless. Like millions of rebel users who shoot in full auto mode 100% of the time.
> 
> Also canon has a lot of users who stick to canon since the 70s.... they will always buy canon no matter if it is an inferior product or not.
> ...



The aim of any company is to maximise sales. If a company can maximise sales by concentrating on things like ergonomics instead of high-spec functionality (which is the nub of the Canon vs Sony argument) then please explain why they should not do this.
If a company can confidently predict that they will sell more by adapting feature A instead of feature B, even though feature B looks better on internet forums please explain why they should not adapt feature A.

Canon have seen ergonomics as key to their success so it Sony had chosen to fight them 5 years ago on the ergonomics battleground they would have gone out of business. So Sony decided to use their experience and capability on the sensor front to produce functionally superior products but ones that lagged ergonomically (they have all but admitted this in interviews earlier this year). Sony have now created a solid foundation in their market and are now improving ergonomics to close the gap with Canon. It was a sound business decision and is bearing fruit. Just as Canon's business decision was also sound. 

Two interesting points arise from this: 
Firstly it shows how technological status does not seem to play as important a part in buying decisions as Canon-bashers seem to think.
Secondly, although I commented that Sony have created a solid foundation in the market place their market share is no greater now than it was before the A7 series were released - something that Canon's critics seem to be ignorant of and which does not play to their internal story of the status of the camera market.


----------



## djack41 (Jan 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yes, more companies are offering FF mirrorless now...but APS-C ILCs still massively outsell FF models, and given the cost differential that’s not going to change anytime soon. Even so, Canon still sells more full frame cameras then Sony.
> 
> 
> Yeah, they’re only ahead in sales, where they are crushing the competition. Sorry that you’re having such trouble grasping basic facts and reality.
> ...


Nero, Since Canon is so dominant, it has no excuses....right. I own a 1DX2 that badly underperforms my comrades D5 in in critical areas for wildlife photography such as AF, ISO and dynamic range. They used to be Canon shooters. The venerable 5D4 doesn't compare with the D850 in AF, FR, ISO, or MP. My EOS R is a good first-try camera but lags badly to Sony's offerings like the A7R3, A73 or A9. Pick your spec.....where does the EOS R prevail.......well I do like the flip screen. Inferior products lose market share. Stop being Fanboy blind.


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## JonSnow (Jan 9, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> The aim of any company is to maximise sales.



most likely. i know a few who want to make the best product possible. even when that means selling less.
but these are mostly smaller companys in private hands. not big companys like canon.




> If a company can maximise sales by concentrating on things like ergonomics instead of high-spec functionality (which is the nub of the Canon vs Sony argument) then please explain why they should not do this.



why should i do that? explain something that has nothing to do with what i am saying?

we talk about canon cameras lacking in features not ergonomics.

ergonomics don´t do a thing for me when i want/need (for example) uncropped 4K at 60FPS or great AF tracking at more than 3 fps. you do understand that?
in case the next sony a7s can do uncropped 4K at 60FPS and someone needs that feature.... ergonomics (may) come second.

you complain about sonys ergonomics (that IS a valid complain for you) but you won´t acknowledge canons shortcomings.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 9, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Inferior products lose market share. Stop being Fanboy blind.


Yes, inferior products generally result in a loss of market share. You claim Canon products are inferior. Over the past decade, Canon has _gained_ market share. Stop ignoring reality, and at least make some attempt to grasp the fact that the features you apparently value are not the features that the majority of buyers value (or at least, not value highly enough to affect their buying decisions).


----------



## Mikehit (Jan 9, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> why should i do that? explain something that has nothing to do with what i am saying?
> 
> we talk about canon cameras lacking in features not ergonomics.
> 
> ergonomics don´t do a thing for me when i want/need (for example) uncropped 4K at 60FPS. you do understand that?



And that is the point that you (and too many others) miss. Canon have developed features you don't care about. All companies have different priorities and limited resources so they allocate limited resources in a way that makes best sense to their customer base. Sometimes that decision is affected by the technology they have available and the fact is that Canon's sensor is unable to deliver the data throughput that would enable them to match Sony's technological advantages. So my guess is they have developed their superior ergonomics to give them breathing space while they improve their game with the sensor.

You don't like what Canon are doing - fine. But you keep talking about this as if Canon made a business decision to deliberately produce an inferior camera although while having the ability to do it if they wanted to. If Canon were suffering in sales I am sure they would have allocated their resources differently.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 9, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> Some peope talk about specs some peope like you talk about marketshare.
> The product with the best feature or usability is not always the bestselling.... you know there is a thing like MARKETING. Most customers are clueless. Like millions of rebel users who shoot in full auto mode 100% of the time.
> 
> Also canon has a lot of users who stick to canon since the 70s.... they will always buy canon no matter if it is an inferior product or not.
> ...


Ahhh yes, I understand what you’re really saying: “More people buy Canon, but they’re stupid sheep and I’m smart so I know better.” Sell your sophistic crap somewhere else, most of us are intelligent enough to recognize your bullshit from the pervasive stench.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 9, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> ergonomics don´t do a thing for me when i want/need (for example) uncropped 4K at 60FPS or great AF tracking at more than 3 fps. you do understand that?
> in case the next sony a7s can do uncropped 4K at 60FPS and someone needs that feature.... ergonomics (may) come second.


Sure, we understand that. Not everyone has the same priorities as you, and in fact, the sales data suggest that most people have priorities that are different from yours. Do you understand that? And if you do, what makes you think Canon should choose to address your priorities over those of the majority. Oh wait, you answered that...they should choose your priorities because you’re so much smarter than all their stupid ovine customers.


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## JonSnow (Jan 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> apparentlyvalue are not be the features that the majority of buyers value (or at least, not value highly enough to affect their buying decisions).



yeah lol....you are sure playing the soccer moms advocate here.
too bad most people in this forum are not happy using a rebel in full auto mode.

and rebels are the bread and butter of canon.
and from my obseration they are not customers who have much knowledge about a cameras featureset.

honestly nobody here who is into photography (or photography gear) cares about your constant brabbling about marketshare.
when you have no arguments.... you bring the discussion to marketshare.

APS-C.... i would be stupid to buy into canon. fuji is so much better today.

FF... canon is happy to have a large user base with existing glass and excellent marketing (unlike nikon).

canon has great marketing, a userbase build over decades and a brand name.... like coke.

technologically.... canon is behind. or at least they are not wiling to put the technology into their cameras.


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## JonSnow (Jan 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Ahhh yes, I understand what you’re really saying: “More people buy Canon, but they’re stupid sheep and I’m smart so I know better.” Sell your sophistic crap somewhere else, most of us are intelligent enough to recognize your bullshit from the pervasive stench.



the only thing you can do is making personal attacks when you disagree. i pitty you. it must be miserable to be around you.
why the MODS allow someone like you to turn every thread into a shitfest of personal attacks is beyond me.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 9, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> the only thing you can do is making personal attacks when you disagree. i pitty you. it must be miserable to be around you.
> why the MODS allow someone like you to turn every thread into a shitfest of personal attacks is beyond me.


I see. Go ahead and call millions of people sheep and imply they intentionally buy an inferior product out of loyalty, and when called on it, accuse the one who won’t swallow your tripe of a ‘personal attack’ and respond with a personal attack of your own. Yeah, that makes just oodles of sense.


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## JonSnow (Jan 9, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> Sometimes that decision is affected by the technology they have available and the fact is that Canon's sensor is unable to deliver the data throughput that would enable them to match Sony's technological advantages.



well i made that point in my first post here in this forum. so i know that pretty well.



> You don't like what Canon are doing - fine. But you keep talking about this as if Canon made a business decision to deliberately produce an inferior camera although while having the ability to do it if they wanted to. If Canon were suffering in sales I am sure they would have allocated their resources differently.



who cares if it is deliberately or not?
others show that they can do what canon can not/will not.


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## JonSnow (Jan 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> I see. Go ahead and call millions of people sheep and imply they intentionally buy an inferior product out



i guess THAT is only ok when you insult sony users as clueless fanboys.

people who are so clueless they buy a product just because of it´s superior features and better sensors, but ignore ergonomics.....



> accuse the one who won’t swallow your tripe of a ‘personal attack’ and respond with a personal attack of your own. Yeah, that makes just oodles of sense



you attack people. i attack opinions.

when you have no arguments you bring your "but marketshare" nonsense. every time like a broken record.
i argue from a customer viewpoint, you argue from canon business viewpoint (why? i sure don´t get it).

that canon makes the most money with the least amount of effort is not in my interest as customer.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 9, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> i guess THAT is only ok when you insult sony users as clueless fanboys.


When have I done that? Feel free to link some quotes from my posts. Or, if you can’t find any, feel free to retract your accusation and be mature enough to admit your mistake.



JonSnow said:


> people who are so clueless they buy a product just because of it´s superior features and better sensors, but ignore ergonomics.....


Sorry, you seem to be conflating my response with those of others. Try to keep these things straight, it might help lend you a least a modicum of credibility.



JonSnow said:


> you attack people. i attack opinions.


I see. So this is how you attack opinions:


JonSnow said:


> Most customers are clueless.


Seems you have trouble with metacognition, you might want to get that checked.


----------



## JonSnow (Jan 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> When have I done that? Feel free to link some quotes from my posts. Or, if you can’t find any, feel free to retract your accusation and be mature enough to admit your mistake.



when i have the cold i will search through your "23,472" messages.

sorry but i have a life.. but we all know that insulting others when they have different opinions is your modus operandi.


actually let´s have a few quotes about how you interact with other canonrumor members:



> Most people have little to no understanding of how corporations operate.



but they sure are camera experts..... so much about calling people sheeps.



> Perhaps merely unfortunate victims of educational systems that do not emphasize STEM





> Maybe if I send you a dollar via PayPal, you can use it to go buy a clue.





> So any time you'd like to pull your head out of the ground and join reality, feel free. "





> Or maybe they just don't have your high-end ego. Keep on Canowhining, by all means don't let little things like reality influence your...





> As usual, facts and reality reveal your statements as the typical ridiculous drivel you spout here.





> You can use your fingers if that helps you count,





> Meanwhile, back here in the real world or most of us live, Canon FF ILCs are outselling _Sony_ FF ILCs. I welcome you to join us in the real world, but of course you are free to continue living in your fantasy land.





> t. It sounds like you're so emotionally attached to your tools that you sleep with your _Sony_ camera. You should be warned that the a7 series has notoriously poor moisture sealing around its base, so your nocturnal emissions on your...





> Why are you here, anyway?





> o you know anything about reading comprehension...or even basic punctuation





> Spoken like a true _troll_.





> Spoken in true _troll_ form by both of you, with all the business acumen of the mud under your bridge. Maybe one too many mirrorslaps to the head.





> Please go back to your _troll_ hole now,





> Why don't you crawl back into your _troll_ cave where you belong.





> Yes, people will call you a troll — it's a moniker you might deserve





> he's a _troll_ or merely gullible and clueless.





> sad to watch the evolutionary descent from human to _troll_.





> I'd suggest you not waste it giving credence to any of the idiotic tripe he spouts.





> Nice post. Completely divorced from reality, but nice nonetheless.





> e've already established that you're the expert. Expert _troll_, that is. :





> Are you perhaps a Nikon _troll_-for-hire?





> I can state an opinion, too: you're a pathetic little _troll_





> I doubt you'd know reality if it bit you on the butt.





> In fact, you either have very poor metacognition





> When you next visit your therapist, be sure to have your metacognition assessed..




i could go on for hours....


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 9, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> when i have the cold i will search through your "23,472" messages.
> sorry but i have a life.. but we all know that insulting others when they have different opinions is your modus operandi.


While I have no problem responding to insults with insults, you’d be hard pressed to find instances where I was the one to instigate the exchange of insults. But I’m sure you won’t look, because you ‘have a life’...or you are too lazy, which amounts to the same thing. 

And once again you make a claim that you cannot support with evidence. Typical. Pathetic, but typical.


----------



## Ivan Muller (Jan 9, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> Also canon has a lot of users who stick to canon since the 70s.... they will always buy canon no matter if it is an inferior product or not.



*I guess I fall into this category...*I occasionally read with interest some other camera brand reviews...*but* *the thing is that I've never felt that what I am getting out of my Canon is so bad that I just have to change, on the contrary I am generally impressed and have been more than satisfied with the performance of my bodies, lenses and accessories since I went digital with the 20D back in 2004.*

Also, I look at the total offering not just the camera body, but also the lenses, accessories and backup etc. For instance in my neck of the woods, Southern Africa, Sony pulled out completely, through lack of sales I imagine, a couple of years ago. They are starting to trickle back but I would not consider buying anything from them at the moment nor in the foreseeable future...Nikon is strong here but their professional lenses are a good deal more expensive than Canon's. And personally I don't like their styling. Fuji is making big inroads here especially among the youth and I like what they have to offer... But it makes no sense to have two different camera systems and they just dont have the selection that Canon has. Also the M6 is considerably cheaper than the equivalent Fuji offerings without even having to go and buy lenses that fit.

Canon makes superb TS lenses and I have the 24TSmk2, which is quite unique imo. So also for the small and cheap 40mm pancake and 50mm stm, and that super compact yet versatile and sharp 70-300L.....and the new 35mm f1.8 RF is probably my next lens... I have a couple of Canon flashes that I hammer in my commercial photography and they just carry on and on. I have not had a body or lens fail on me for 10 years, and before that only once did a lens pack up. I like the way Canons Eos bodies look and the way the menu works. And the reliability, and the familiarity, and the vast options that I can choose from.

On average I keep my body for 4 years and my 6D, which I just enjoyed tremendously has about 100k on the clock and it got replaced by the R which by the way I also enjoy tremendously...so why should I change? Because some, usually anonymous troll, on the internet tells me so, or because DP review gives it 79% and Sony/Nikon gets 89%? And lets say Canons next R is the bees knees and gets 99% rating on DPREview, should I sell everything and go back to Canon only to change a year later when the new Pentax gets a 110% review.....as I said before many of my commercial photographer friends are using old equipment and most of them dont care about the DR, 4K, Fps, Sensor stabilization etc etc. 

They just want cameras that work reliably....and my experience tells me that Canon does...

But I am eternally grateful to Sony for pushing the boundaries.....Competition is good for everyone, and if they are fully or even partly responsible for the Eos R happening then all I can say is keep on pushing Sony/Fuji/Leica/Pentax/Olympus!


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 9, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> actually in most posts you are the one who acts passive agressive when someone critizises canon. don´t think people won´t notice that.
> and i really wonder why the mods ignore that you poison every discussion..


So presenting facts that refute someone’s claims is ‘passive aggresssive’ and constitutes ‘poisoning a discussion’? Well, you have no evidence to add to this discussion, but that doesn’t seem to stop you from spewing codswallop. Either way, there’s really no benefit in continuing the discussion.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 9, 2019)

Ivan Muller said:


> *I guess I fall into this category...*I occasionally read with interest some other camera brand reviews...*but* *the thing is that I've never felt that what I am getting out of my Canon is so bad that I just have to change, on the contrary I am generally impressed and have been more than satisfied with the performance of my bodies, lenses and accessories since I went digital with the 20D back in 2004.*
> 
> Also, I look at the total offering not just the camera body, but also the lenses, accessories and backup etc. For instance in my neck of the woods, Southern Africa, Sony pulled out completely, through lack of sales I imagine, a couple of years ago. They are starting to trickle back but I would not consider buying anything from them at the moment nor in the foreseeable future...Nikon is strong here but their professional lenses are a good deal more expensive than Canon's. And personally I don't like their styling. Fuji is making big inroads here especially among the youth and I like what they have to offer... But it makes no sense to have two different camera systems and they just dont have the selection that Canon has. Also the M6 is considerably cheaper than the equivalent Fuji offerings without even having to go and buy lenses that fit.
> 
> ...


My history is shorter than yours (Minolta/Pentax film SLRs in the 70s/80s, long hiatus, bought first DSLR in 2009), but in general I agree. If there was a meaningful benefit to switching (or adding another system), I’d have already done that. I have tried other systems, and found nothing that would drive me to adopt them. Sure, some features are better on other systems, and some are worse. Life is always trade offs.


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## SaP34US (Jan 9, 2019)

No it might bring back 35mm camera ti all demographics ie making it more like back in flim unless you using medium or large format when everyone mom & pops to pro used 35mm.


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## dak723 (Jan 9, 2019)

M_S said:


> I really don't understand the move to release an entry level R camera now, where you can only buy high end lenses for it. If someone was interested in buying into the new system via an entry level camera, he probably would want to use entry level priced lenses to come with it. Since this is not in the portfolio of canon right now in the R line, this really doesn't make sense for me. Who might be the target audience for it? Who will buy an entry level camera with a 50 F1.2 or a 28-70 F2? Looking at the prices right now, 3600 Euros for a body, kit lens and adapter isn't cheap. On the same page, comparing the features of the EOS-R with other cameras in the mirrorless market and with DSLRs: What could entry mean in this case as this more or less entry already? Really puzzled about this.



Target audience:

People who already have EF lenses.
People who buy the R with the 24-105mm kit lens. That is why it is sold with a kit lens and not the 28-70mm or the 50mm.
People who will buy and then use the 28-70mm or the 50mm on the R, where they will perform quite well.

The R is not an entry level camera. Rebels are entry level cameras. Perhaps this is where your confusion comes from.


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## dak723 (Jan 9, 2019)

djack41 said:


> With the specs and quality of cameras offered by Sony, Nikon, Fuji etc,. the EOS R better be the low-end camera! Canon has to get into the game.



Typical Sony troll or "fake" review type comment. Seriously, who gave you the script?


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## SaP34US (Jan 9, 2019)

I have a 50mm 1.8 lens and a 75-300mm 1.4-5.6 III lens. Those two lenses when had the Rebel T5 and the Rebel T7i before I decided to buy a M50 with the the adapter (which by the way 2x the price the basic R adapter), the EFM15-55mm kit lens and the 22mm lens and would likely get the lower R.


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## Mikehit (Jan 9, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> who cares if it is deliberately or not?
> others show that they can do what canon can not/will not.



If they are unable to add a function due to their technological limitations simply telling them to do it is meaningless. If they could do it but choose not to that is a valid criticism.
Either way, anyone who has these criticisms and continue to buy Canon are implicitly telling Canon that actually those functionalities are actually not very important after all and Canon are doing good things overall.


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## djack41 (Jan 10, 2019)

dak723 said:


> Typical Sony troll or "fake" review type comment. Seriously, who gave you the script?





dak723 said:


> Typical Sony troll or "fake" review type comment. Seriously, who gave you the script?


Sorry Dik. I own nothing but Canon cameras, including the EOS R. No script. Just experience.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 10, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Sorry Dik. I own nothing but Canon cameras, including the EOS R. No script. Just experience.


Wow, djickfartyone (seems we’re both prone to typos), I’m amazed you haven’t switched to a brand other than Canon, with all of that bad experience. By buying even their most recent model, you’re sending the message that they’re making desirable gear. Why are you doing that?


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## dak723 (Jan 10, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Sorry Dik. I own nothing but Canon cameras, including the EOS R. No script. Just experience.



OK, sorry for my assumption. If you own nothing but Canon and have bought the R, then obviously I misinterpreted your comment. You seem very unhappy with Canon's R and love the specs of all the competitors. You must have misspoken and meant that you love the new control ring, the new fully articulating screen, the industry leading touch screen, the touch and drag AF, the sensor protection curtain and the other specs that Sony, Nikon and Fuji don't have. I guess, since you bought the R, you meant that Canon was _*leading*_ the game!


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## Ivan Muller (Jan 10, 2019)

Yes agreed, life is a compromise!

I've been lucky - or according to some, unlucky to have been mostly Canon my whole photography life....


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## gzroxas (Jan 10, 2019)

I’m curious to see what Canon brings to the table with this entry level model. 
One thing I would like to point out about all these comments is that:
Yes, Canon has seen its market share grow and is “leading”, but it’s thanks to:
1) people with a lot of EF lenses that don’t want to bother switching and are okay with some lower tier specs in some areas (DR, ISO, etc) 
2) NEW USERS: not everyone buys Full Frame, actually I think it’s a very small part: everyone that wants to have a good camera for their vacations or simply wants to start photography will buy an APS-C DSLR most likely, because they don’t have the resources to buy FF and because anyone with NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE on Cameras will buy the so-called “Reflex” camera that he has been used to see for the last 20ish years, and Canon because they do great marketing and they’re also renown for some of their older cameras.
Hell, most beginners don’t even know that Sony makes cameras!! 
So the argument of the Market Share should be ditched in my opinion

From a Canon shooter, hoping Canon can take the good things from the R while still closing the gap with the above mentioned areas to bring us a truly great product


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## scyrene (Jan 10, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> It is entry level for FF. If your definition if to 'entry level' to photography, then surely that accolade belongs with smartphones and compacts.



I'm not sure I agree with you there. Aside from the fact that 'entry level' is pretty meaningless when it's the only camera in a line (and I can't think of an objective way of defining the term except 'cheapest in its class'), the fact they used what is on several measures their best existing FF sensor means there are corners that could have been cut. Perhaps the market wouldn't have borne a 6D2 sensor in the first Canon FF MILC but they could have done it (and still could).


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## scyrene (Jan 10, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Nero, Since Canon is so dominant, it has no excuses....right. I own a 1DX2 that badly underperforms my comrades D5 in in critical areas for wildlife photography such as AF, ISO and *dynamic range*.



Although it's a bad idea to respond to trolling, I think it's worth having on record that the D5's DR is LESS GOOD than the 1Dx2 - DPR who are generally Nikon-positive made it clear when they tested the D5 that it sacrifices lower ISO DR for high ISO performance. Feel free to delude yourself, but please keep the outright lies to a minimum, thanks.

Direct quotation: "the D5 has poorer base ISO dynamic range than its current peers". Source: Dpreview D5 review


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## scyrene (Jan 10, 2019)

Although it's a little off topic, almost the whole thread is... but to those saying 'how can they possibly make a lower-level model than the R?' - take a look at the low-end APS-C DSLRs. Canon are experts at paring models down to the bone at the lower end - recycling old sensor designs, keeping AF points to a minimum, using cheaper materials. They get a lot of flak for it, but it's clearly a business model that works for them. I'd expect the same here to some extent - although it's not been applied to FF before really, there's no reason it couldn't be.


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## peters (Jan 10, 2019)

dirtyvu said:


> No point in discussing the camera if you're calling it a mirrorless 6D. You clearly haven't tried it or looked at the pictures and videos produced by it.


I actualy tried it ;-)
The pictures may be nice (as the 5d iv) which is nowhere near a Sony a7RIII sensor. 
The video features is realy a joke, no discussion there ;-) 
It does pretty much the same than the 6d II and is certainly no professional camera (the single SD slot alone is proof for this)


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## peters (Jan 10, 2019)

dak723 said:


> You do understand that Canon is building a system that they hope will last for decades.  And that virtually no one needs a camera immediately. So, professional photographers can certainly wait another 6 months to a year (or more) to see what the R lineup will look ultimately look like.


Why would people wait so long if there is a way more capable system waiting at sonys side?





> And that the R can certainly be used professionally - as can any FF camera and many crop cameras as well.


Yep it can, but why would ANYONE work with a single card-slot camera in a professional environment? (beside studio work) There is NO reason at all to use the EOS R over the 5d IV for your professional work. 




> And that they have released 4 lenses so far - so saying that they have released the "pretty much best lenses of their entire lineup" is rather silly, in my opinion.


I mean compared to there entire EF lineup. The 28-70 f2 and the 50mm is pretty much the best that canon offers, isnt it? 



> And calling the "R" a "toy" and insinuating that those that will buy the R and even a lower end future R will be doing nothing more than posting them on instagram is totally insulting to both Canon and those photographers that are using the R to produce professional level photographs.
> 
> 
> > Who exactly is using the EOS R for professional work? Leave influencers who are paid for it aside. Why would anyone use it over a 5D IV?
> ...


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## peters (Jan 10, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Cameras that cost hundreds and even thousands are not toys. Besides, the photographer/glass makes the biggest difference. Sorry about your Instagram.


It is absoluetely not a professional tool. Why do people insist it is? Not even canon acts like it is.

You are right on the lenses. The lenses are capable of a way higher resolution. In my opinion the EOS R sensor just doenst match the lenses performance. 

I am not on instagram, I loathe it.


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## Ozarker (Jan 10, 2019)

peters said:


> It is absoluetely not a professional tool. Why do people insist it is? Not even canon acts like it is.
> 
> You are right on the lenses. The lenses are capable of a way higher resolution. In my opinion the EOS R sensor just doenst match the lenses performance.
> 
> I am not on instagram, I loathe it.



Professionals are making money with it. It is a professional tool for some. Again, sorry about your Instagram.

The R sensor doesn't match the lens performance? Which ones have you tried?


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 10, 2019)

peters said:


> Yep it can, but why would ANYONE work with a single card-slot camera in a professional environment? (beside studio work) There is NO reason at all to use the EOS R over the 5d IV for your professional work.


I wonder how many pros actually write to both cards simultaneously, as a backup in case of card failure. I find it interesting that the default behavior of Canon’s dual slot cameras is to just record to one card. More importantly, with the exception of one camera (the 1D X), simultaneous recording to both cards means a performance hit in terms of buffer clearing, with performance being limited by the slower of the two card slots. Personally, I do record to both CF cards in my 1D X (not that I’ve ever had a card fail), but if my camera had CF/SD mix or a CFast/CF mix such that recording to both resulted in sub-maximal performance, I’d likely just record to the faster card.



peters said:


> I mean compared to there entire EF lineup. The 28-70 f2 and the 50mm is pretty much the best that canon offers, isnt it?


Best for what? For shooting birds, the 600mm f/4L IS III is ‘the best Canon offers’. For shooting architecture, I’d argue that the TS-E 24/3.5L II and TS-E 17/4L are ‘the best Canon offers’. The EF 24-70/2.8L II and the RF 28-70/2L deliver similar image quality, so which is ‘the best Canon offers’ will vary depending on whether one values an extra stop of light or a 14% wider focal length. The RF 50/1.2L is arguably the best 50mm lens that Canon offers...but it’s also the most expensive 50mm lens that Canon offers, by a $1000 margin, so does it being ‘the best’ really come as a surprise?


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## Mikehit (Jan 10, 2019)

peters said:


> It is absoluetely not a professional tool. Why do people insist it is? Not even canon acts like it is.
> 
> You are right on the lenses. The lenses are capable of a way higher resolution. In my opinion the EOS R sensor just doenst match the lenses performance.


No manufacturer has a sensor that matches the resolution of the lens, the lens is always designed to exceed the resolution of the sensor (not to mention easier) - to do otherwise would be dumb.


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## dak723 (Jan 10, 2019)

peters said:


> I actualy tried it ;-)
> The pictures may be nice (as the 5d iv) which is nowhere near a Sony a7RIII sensor.





> Why would people wait so long if there is a way more capable system waiting at sonys side?



Obviously you must be aware that the 5D IV sensor is very comparable to Sony's and - all things considered (color, ergonomics, touch screen functionality, accessories, service, etc.) - Canon's "System" is certainly (at least) equal to Sony's.

Seems like you are just another Sony lover. So why not get a Sony and hang out on their forums?


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## Otara (Jan 10, 2019)

The phone autocopy option on the EOS-R is in my view a fantastic alternative for various scenarios. It doesnt replace two card slots, but its something that doesnt seem to get a lot of airtime as another way to backup your shooting if its particularly vital.

Edit: And agreed on the two card solution being too slow on the 5diii/7d2, I never use the SD card other than for piece of mind as extra storage if the CF card was full, or to copy over to use the SD slot directly on my laptop.


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## Km0 (Jan 11, 2019)

(crossed fingers) Let it have IBIS... Let it have IBIS... Let it have IBIS...


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## Adelino (Jan 11, 2019)

Km0 said:


> (crossed fingers) Let it have IBIS... Let it have IBIS... Let it have IBIS...





djack41 said:


> Nero, Since Canon is so dominant, it has no excuses....right. I own a 1DX2 that badly underperforms my comrades D5 in in critical areas for wildlife photography such as AF, ISO and dynamic range. They used to be Canon shooters. The venerable 5D4 doesn't compare with the D850 in AF, FR, ISO, or MP. My EOS R is a good first-try camera but lags badly to Sony's offerings like the A7R3, A73 or A9. Pick your spec.....where does the EOS R prevail.......well I do like the flip screen. Inferior products lose market share. Stop being Fanboy blind.


You just explained why Sony will lose FF mirrorless marketshare.


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## Mikehit (Jan 11, 2019)

Adelino said:


> You just explained why Sony will lose FF mirrorless marketshare.



Losing market share is not the same as losing sales - in fact Sony could increase sales and still lose market share..


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## Juangrande (Jan 11, 2019)

bellorusso said:


> That touch bar nonsense reminds of the same thing on Macbooks. Crap that people don't need, don't want and would really wish they didn't have to pay for. And yet Apple and Canon push unwanted creepy tech on us. We want better sensors - Canon gives us touch bar. OMG. I just can't.


I use the Touch Bar on my MacBook Pro all the time and love it and so glad it there because it’s very useful in PS and LR. So maybe not for you for some reason but definitely for me.


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 11, 2019)

Adelino said:


> You just explained why Sony will lose FF mirrorless marketshare.


The only way Sony would not lose marketshare is of none of the three new competitors fielding 5 new cameras made a single sale. Of course they will.

And, as noted above, they might lose market share while capturing more y/y sales.


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## Friedolin (Jan 12, 2019)

If it's a low-end R, it should have two touch bars ;-)


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