# Is Scotch tape the answer to your Canon EOS R5 overheating issues?



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 22, 2020)

> YouTuber J. Marcus Photography has done a video showing a bit of a hack using Scotch tape to reset the overheating timer for the Canon EOS R5.
> In the video, you’ll see him put Scotch tape over the area of the battery compartment that tells the Canon EOS R5 that the battery compartment door is closed, except that it isn’t!
> While recording, the EOS R5 gives an overheating warning. Instead of shutting the camera down, the battery is removed while the camera is still. The battery is then put back in after 10 seconds and the overheating warning is gone. This tells us that removing the battery that way doesn’t give the camera time to write the thermal information to the mainboard, so everything just resets back to 5 minutes of recording time.
> Check out the video above and make your own conclusions.



Continue reading...


----------



## dilbert (Aug 22, 2020)

Does doing this void your warranty if the camera sustains damage due to overheating?


----------



## jjj120 (Aug 22, 2020)

That's probably about the same thing as removing the system battery cell, except it doesn't delete all your settings.


----------



## YuengLinger (Aug 22, 2020)

dilbert said:


> Does doing this void your warranty if the camera sustains damage due to overheating?


Generally, in the USA, a modification, temp or permanent, that defeats a built-in safeguard would violate a warranty--if the manufacturer knew about such a mod.

But this all seems too desperate too soon. I'd think somebody who depends on highest quality 4k video would have dedicated equipment.

Basically, what I'm seeing are people who have expendable funds playing with gear that has been tagged as problematic and/or controversial. Some of the "experiments" have been illuminating! Such as running to an external monitor without the cards in the body, resetting the overheating timer by removing the internal battery...Makes one wonder if Canon's own engineers are at least this clever!

Also makes me wonder when Canon is going to have some breakthrough news about this mess. Can't google for new reviews without seeing the blasted overheating hyperbole popping up.


----------



## goldenhusky (Aug 22, 2020)

When he removes the battery and restarts recording it gives only 5 mins. That tells me Canon have a temperature sensor and firmware limitation combined. I do not believe Canon will remove this limitation with a firmware update.


----------



## wockawocka (Aug 22, 2020)

dilbert said:


> Does doing this void your warranty if the camera sustains damage due to overheating?



Yes but being able to prove it is something else.

Although it's just a proof of concept. I can't see how this can be in any way viable for shooting with.


----------



## YuengLinger (Aug 22, 2020)

goldenhusky said:


> I do not believe Canon will remove this limitation with a firmware update.



What about modifying it so that the timer to restart recordings isn't so long?


----------



## YuengLinger (Aug 22, 2020)

Might Canon be depending on timers instead of thermometers because they couldn't make thermometers work reliably within the body? If they found that the temperatures could not be accurately measured, they just went with timers based on scenarios they experimented with during design and testing?


----------



## Roy Hunte (Aug 22, 2020)

goldenhusky said:


> When he removes the battery and restarts recording it gives only 5 mins. That tells me Canon have a temperature sensor and firmware limitation combined. I do not believe Canon will remove this limitation with a firmware update.


They may improve it with a firmware update, but some limits will stay.


----------



## Mistkäfer (Aug 22, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Might Canon be depending on timers instead of thermometers because they couldn't make thermometers work reliably within the body? If they found that the temperatures could not be accurately measured, they just went with timers based on scenarios they experimented with during design and testing?


I don't think it's just timers. i was in our garden one morning and took pictures of birds, not videos. we had about 25 degrees that morning. after a while i switched to video, with the change the overheating symbol lit up. how can that be if there are only timers?


----------



## YuengLinger (Aug 22, 2020)

Mistkäfer said:


> I don't think it's just timers. i was in our garden one morning and took pictures of birds, not videos. we had about 25 degrees that morning. after a while i switched to video, with the change the overheating symbol lit up. how can that be if there are only timers?


Because it seems stories like yours are very common, that ANY use of the camera initiates a timer. I wouldn't be surprised to hear the same thing happening were the ambient temps 10 degrees lower. I really wonder if the camera is obtaining any kind of accurate temp info inside or outside the body, which might explain why the timers seem so aggressive and consistent. They are based on high temp scenarios as a safeguard.


----------



## derpderp (Aug 22, 2020)

Canon is D00M4D!!!!!!!!!!!! 



/s


----------



## jayhenington (Aug 22, 2020)

Mistkäfer said:


> I don't think it's just timers. i was in our garden one morning and took pictures of birds, not videos. we had about 25 degrees that morning. after a while i switched to video, with the change the overheating symbol lit up. how can that be if there are only timers?


You took pictures of birds. That also activates the timer in testing. Even using the menu alone reduces the amount of time it will allow you to shoot.


----------



## Mistkäfer (Aug 22, 2020)

Okay, this I did not have thought. This is very sadly.

I have to say, I did not have at the moment the time to move out and use the Camera all over the day, because I have bruised ribs and a lot of pain.

But for real. I love the R5 with the Imagequality and the IBIS the AF...... so the overheating is for me far away, at the moment. But it sounds very sadly if some rumors are true.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Aug 22, 2020)

It sounds the timer starts to soon, with it starting with the menus and still shooting. They just need to start the 20mins from the moment you hit record. Perhaps with a warning screen that you are trying to use a stills camera to record a movie.


----------



## BeenThere (Aug 22, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Might Canon be depending on timers instead of thermometers because they couldn't make thermometers work reliably within the body? If they found that the temperatures could not be accurately measured, they just went with timers based on scenarios they experimented with during design and testing?


Implementing multiple thermocouples and associated electronics, plus the additional testing required may have pushed Canon engineers decide to go with a simpler timer arrangement. May have allowed them to get to market more quickly. We will probably never know. I, for one don’t care.


----------



## goldenhusky (Aug 22, 2020)

derpderp said:


> Canon is D00M4D!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> /s


yeah every thread in here some lame duck has to make this comment thinking it is funny


----------



## goldenhusky (Aug 22, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> What about modifying it so that the timer to restart recordings isn't so long?



I am sure there will be some work around but I doubt Canon will do that.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Aug 22, 2020)

derpderp said:


> Canon is D00M4D!!!!!!!!!



Absolutely not. This time, Canon is evidently scotched.


----------



## cornieleous (Aug 22, 2020)

This is just sad. Defeating a warning is not solving the problem. If I broke the seat belt warning in my car, does that mean I'm now safe not wearing one?

So, so tired of all these fools who know nothing about electronics components, cooling, or firmware. More sick of those repeating it for web profit. These people are only looking for clicks and refuse to accept the camera as designed. Not a shred of engineering experience among them apparently.

Every armchair fool has the solution or knows better than a dedicated team of engineers. Seems to be the world today- just having an opinion is somehow permission to deny logic or facts. Start with a baseless emotional premise and shout the loudest.

Let's take another example, a fold out knife with safety. If some idiot thinks the safety is limiting and defeats it then calls that a solution, when they get cut is it the manufacturer at fault?

Defeating the overheating limit is not a solution, it is bypassing design limits. Only the fool crowd who refuses to understand even the basics of physics or engineering thinks everything in the world can be solved with a couple lines of software or that they are some victim being cheated even if they don't own this product. They think infinite capability is possible and owed to them in a tiny camera for less. Why aren't these idiots bashing gopro or anyone else for their limitations? Once people latch on to a trend or emotion they never let logic in.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 22, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Generally, in the USA, a modification, temp or permanent, that defeats a built-in safeguard would violate a warranty--if the manufacturer knew about such a mod.
> 
> But this all seems too desperate too soon. I'd think somebody who depends on highest quality 4k video would have dedicated equipment.
> 
> ...


It only really affects 4k 60p, 8k. I just know what temperature my camera is and never alow it to reach the waning temperature, which in my case at ambient temperature of 85 - 90 F is at 115F at the back of the camera. In which case I've recorded 45 min and 32 minutes on 128GB CFexpress and 128 V90. No problem for me. If I want anything longer I will just use an Atomos Ninja 5 or a fan unit. No need to worry about the Cool down timer if it never overheats. At alarm temperature the card slot can get anywhere from 112 - 120 F. Canon will most likely change the Cool down timer, but not the alarm threshold. I set up an Excel chart with all my modes, settings, threshold temps, and times. I'm good. I don't need any hacks. I will never record more than 30 minutes anyway. If I do, I won't use 40 60p.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 22, 2020)

I would not overided the Cool down timer. Simply establish where the temperature thresholds are for the desired modes are and record them. They occur at same temperature in each mode, when measuring with a thermometer or imaging device. At least they have for me so far. I have just completed 4k 60 All-I working from the lower modes first. I'm still testing and recording internal temperatures after thresholds etc. And temps in 2 minutes intervals.


----------



## AlanF (Aug 22, 2020)

I'd recommend instead a glass of Scotch, preferably a peaty one from Islay. Just slowly savour the Scotch while the camera cools down. Won't void the warranty either.


----------



## -pekr- (Aug 22, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> This is just sad. Defeating a warning is not solving the problem. If I broke the seat belt warning in my car, does that mean I'm now safe not wearing one?
> 
> So, so tired of all these fools who know nothing about electronics components, cooling, or firmware. More sick of those repeating it for web profit. These people are only looking for clicks and refuse to accept the camera as designed. Not a shred of engineering experience among them apparently.
> 
> ...



The guy is not trying to solve the problem, nor does he suggest it as being a solution. All he is trying to provide is the possible proof, that there might be an artificial timer used, instead of the thermal read-out.

You are too bold to mark all internet being just armchair fools. Many ppl might have some technical backgroud. E.g. I am an IT guy for 30 years, we have built Astro CCD camera, doing the HW, firmware, software and all that.

While I don't feel competent enough to judge the current situation, I would not downplay other's experience. There is definitely something fishy here, like sitting in menu for one hour, doing few pics and not getting even a 1sec of a 4K HQ video, measuring 43C temperature, whereas getting to 63C during the 8K video and getting 20 minutes of the shooting time from the cold start.

The problem might not be the limitation of the lenght of particular video modes, those got advertised, but weird cool down times, most probably not being based upon a temperature reading or not a temperature reading alone (the timer stuff). Simply put - noone wants to use camera for stills in a lightly manner for cca half to one hour, and get zeroed on the 4K HQ video capability.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 22, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Generally, in the USA, a modification, temp or permanent, that defeats a built-in safeguard would violate a warranty--if the manufacturer knew about such a mod.
> 
> But this all seems too desperate too soon. * I'd think somebody who depends on highest quality 4k video would have dedicated equipment.*
> 
> ...



But the R5 is even better - it has *8K*!!

I'd think a company that put 8K in its still camera would have wanted to at least have all its 4K modes not to take so long to fully recover from overheating.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 22, 2020)

derpderp said:


> Canon is D00M4D!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> /s



LOL!!

quack quak


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 22, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> But the R5 is even better - it has *8K*!!
> 
> I'd think a company that put 8K in its still camera would have wanted to at least have all its 4K modes not to take so long to fully recover from overheating.


The R5 can record 4K all day for those that need it. However for those that need it the R5, indeed any Canon hybrid short of the 1DC, would be a poor choice as apart from that 1DC they all have a 29:59 single shot limit unless shooting to external, which virtually everybody shooting long form 4K would be doing anyway. Of course by that point, recording externally, the R5 has been demonstrated to be able to shoot 4kHQ (full capture downsampled 8k) pretty much without time limits too.

At some point all these straw man criticisms of the R5 will collapse, genuine users rather than keyboard cowboys with nothing between their ears but air will find workflows for whatever it is they need and there will be no end of top quality content coming from them. Meanwhile the cowboys will have moved on to the next target of their collective angst, however I have a better suggestion for those cowboys, face into a mirror and see where the real issues and lack of creativity lie, it isn’t in the ‘limitations’ of any particular piece of equipment.

i was trying to think of the last time a Canon body release got this much hate, it doesn’t take much looking as it was the R, not a good word was said about it at release, six months later many of those mouthpieces had adopted it and were praising its abilities.....


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 22, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> This is just sad. *Defeating a warning is not solving the problem.* If I broke the seat belt warning in my car, does that mean I'm now safe not wearing one?
> 
> So, so tired of all these f*ools who know nothing about electronics *components, cooling, or firmware. More sick of those repeating it for web profit. These people are only looking for clicks and refuse to accept the camera as designed. *Not a shred of engineering experience among them* apparently.
> 
> ...



In his video he does warn people that this is not a long-term solution and not advisable until we learn more about what Canon was doing "because it can screw up your camera". 

He also straight out says he is not a scientist.

So just ...C H I L L...(wish Canon would, lol)


----------



## tanne (Aug 22, 2020)

How many people REALLY need 8K video? Right now...


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 22, 2020)

tanne said:


> How many people REALLY need 8K video? Right now...


not as many that need the 4K modes that overheat


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 22, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> not as many that need the 4K modes that overheat


And you can shoot good quality 4K with the R5 even after it has a heat warning on it for HQ formats, try doing that with a Sony.

Or you can just shoot good quality 4K all day long with an R5, there are so many solutions to these ‘issues’ it really is sounding rather desperate.... and repetitive......


----------



## Bdbtoys (Aug 22, 2020)

I saw this video last night and made my comments over at this thread https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/threads/new-twist-in-the-r5-overheat.39163/

TLDR version is the cmos battery trick was interesting from a technical perspective, but not feasible for the masses. This trick is feasible for mass experimentation. I also think it gives the insight on why recovery times seem to be what they are. And that it could be adjusted via firmware.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 22, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> And you can shoot good quality 4K with the R5 even after it has a heat warning on it for HQ formats, try doing that with a Sony.
> 
> Or you can just shoot good quality 4K all day long with an R5, there are so many solutions to these ‘issues’ it really is sounding rather desperate.... and repetitive......



Sounds like my judgment in putting him on ignore continues to be affirmed.


----------



## t.linn (Aug 22, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> So, so tired of all these fools who know nothing about electronics components, cooling, or firmware. More sick of those repeating it for web profit. These people are only looking for clicks and refuse to accept the camera as designed. Not a shred of engineering experience among them apparently.
> 
> Every armchair fool has the solution or knows better than a dedicated team of engineers. Seems to be the world today- just having an opinion is somehow permission to deny logic or facts. Start with a baseless emotional premise and shout the loudest.
> 
> Defeating the overheating limit is not a solution, it is bypassing design limits. Only the fool crowd who refuses to understand even the basics of physics or engineering thinks everything in the world can be solved with a couple lines of software or that they are some victim being cheated even if they don't own this product. They think infinite capability is possible and owed to them in a tiny camera for less.



Your rant ignores the possibility that Canon is simply lying about the extent of the overheating problem to provide cover for once again needlessly crippling a camera body. It doesn't take an advanced engineering degree to look at data that suggests actual internal temperatures are completely uncorrelated to temperature warnings and shutdowns and conclude that the whole situation is simply the result of a software cripple dressed up as a design necessity. Even if you're fine with Canon's decision to intentionally cripple the R5, I don't know how you can defend lying about it.


----------



## Rocksthaman (Aug 22, 2020)

t.linn said:


> Your rant ignores the possibility that Canon is simply lying about the extent of the overheating problem to provide cover for once again needlessly crippling a camera body. It doesn't take an advanced engineering degree to look at data that suggests actual internal temperatures are completely uncorrelated to temperature warnings and shutdowns and conclude that the whole situation is simply the result of a software cripple dressed up as a design necessity. Even if you're fine with Canon's decision to intentionally cripple the R5, I don't know how you can defend lying about it.


Right.

This has much more to do with the company and integrity. I own many Canon lenses and Cameras. I now own some Sony. I would like to thoroughly know the path of Canon through their methods as I make my next purchases.

Yes I would rather not but Canon seems to be coming up short in some strange places to omit certain features or to have limitations, yet the rest of the market is trending the other way. It’s interesting to say the least.

I will say , I do not like Sony’s Raw files or auto white balance, always pushes me back.


----------



## Del Paso (Aug 22, 2020)

AlanF said:


> I'd recommend instead a glass of Scotch, preferably a peaty one from Islay. Just slowly savour the Scotch while the camera cools down. Won't void the warranty either.


ARDBEG, please!


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 22, 2020)

Rocksthaman said:


> Right.
> 
> This has much more to do with the company and integrity. I own many Canon lenses and Cameras. I now own some Sony. I would like to thoroughly know the path of Canon through their methods as I make my next purchases.
> 
> ...



totally agree!!

Something very fishy is going on with CanNot


----------



## Tom W (Aug 22, 2020)

dilbert said:


> Does doing this void your warranty if the camera sustains damage due to overheating?



I was thinking the same thing - if you do this and it overheats, Canon won't cover it. 

Now, the algorithm that Canon uses regarding heat in the camera may be overly cautious, and may be subject to some firmware tweaking, but the overheat warning and prevention scheme is there for a reason.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 22, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> Implementing multiple thermocouples and associated electronics, plus the additional testing required may have pushed Canon engineers decide to go with a simpler timer arrangement. May have allowed them to get to market more quickly. We will probably never know. I, for one don’t care.


However... I come across multiple reports that EXIF of the R5/R6 files contains pretty accurate temp backed into it.


----------



## LensFungus (Aug 22, 2020)

A glass of Scotch surely does help me to cool down.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 22, 2020)

t.linn said:


> Your rant ignores the possibility that Canon is simply lying about the extent of the overheating problem to provide cover for once again needlessly crippling a camera body. It doesn't take an advanced engineering degree to look at data that suggests actual internal temperatures are completely uncorrelated to temperature warnings and shutdowns and conclude that the whole situation is simply the result of a software cripple dressed up as a design necessity. Even if you're fine with Canon's decision to intentionally cripple the R5, I don't know how you can defend lying about it.



++++It doesn't take an advanced engineering degree to look at data that suggests actual internal temperatures are completely uncorrelated to temperature warnings

A.M.: I read that sensor temps at around 60C could be potentially damaging for image quality both stills and video. Sensor reaching 60C temps has been confirmed by multiple sources (EXIF and measurements). It may also lead to mid to long term sensor functional issues. “Canon's decision to intentionally cripple the R5” is yet another conspiracy theory.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 22, 2020)

goldenhusky said:


> When he removes the battery and restarts recording it gives only 5 mins. That tells me Canon have a temperature sensor and firmware limitation combined. I do not believe Canon will remove this limitation with a firmware update.


I measured the internal temperature through the card slot. It reaches 110 F before


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Aug 22, 2020)

Defeating CMOS clocks has been something we have been doing for years.

When I was taking my MCSE (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer) way back in 1999 we would defeat the trial license on Windows Server 2K all the time by tricking the system into thinking it was 1998 so the 120 day trial we were suppose to have was now a year and 120 days. (MS fixed this long ago) but there is still tons of software apps the rely on the date of install to determine things...

Cameras like Computers rely on information stored in the memory that is maintained by the continuous power the button cell provides. Removing that power source or in the case of not allowing an orderly shutdown by defeating the battery door causes the Camera to become unaware of the state the Camera was in prior to the interruption.

I hope no one cooks their Camera trying this...

I can effectively do the same thing to my car by disconnecting all power sources and have been able to clear a Check Engine light doing this (it will return as soon as the fault is recorded again) but it allowed me to limp the thing to my dealership faster then the limp mode was allowing prior to "clearing" the fault.

Looking back at my 7D I was able to replace the CMOS battery (it was in the battery compartment) but that was the last Canon camera that I have owned the allowed me to do this. The fact the battery is not accessible makes it pretty clear to me Canon really does not want or need us messing with it.

I still believe the heat management of the R5 is a total system and each system be it Storage, CPU, Ram, Senor, CMOS all have a role to play in keeping the Camera from cooking itself.

If the R5 has ushered in a new era of taking Cameras apart and torture testing the manufactures claims lets hope all Cameras from now on are put under the same microscope and as a result we as consumers get better Cameras. I fear that will not be the case because I believe most of this has more to do with the name on the front of the Camera then a need to see improvement.

In the end I feel for Canon and having all the BS around what is truly a great Camera.


----------



## -pekr- (Aug 22, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> ++++It doesn't take an advanced engineering degree to look at data that suggests actual internal temperatures are completely uncorrelated to temperature warnings
> 
> A.M.: I read that sensor temps at around 60C could be potentially damaging for image quality both stills and video. Sensor reaching 60C temps has been confirmed by multiple sources (EXIF and measurements). It may also lead to mid to long term sensor functional issues. “Canon's decision to intentionally cripple the R5” is yet another conspiracy theory.



You should at least use available measurements and don't dismiss inconsistencies. 4K HW mode after 1 hour in menu with occassional shots, 43 C - not even a 1 second. 8K, 20 minutes, 63 C. So much for your conspiracy theory ....


----------



## jam05 (Aug 22, 2020)

You're right. For some reason it's only in the 4k 60 and 8k Modes. When measuring the internal temperature through the card slot, at 109 F and 101 external on the back, the camera reaches threshold. Even if allowed to return to 73 F internally, the full recovery does not reset. The cool down timer has an issue in the 4k 60p and 8k mode of operation when recording internally. The cool down timer will allow full recovery in the other modes. One can monitor the internal camera with an IR thermometer through the media door by using a toothpick or similar item to engage the door switch. The internal threshold temperature is not the issue.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 22, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> You should at least use available measurements and don't dismiss inconsistencies. 4K HW mode after 1 hour in menu with occassional shots, 43 C - not even a 1 second. 8K, 20 minutes, 63 C. So much for your conspiracy theory ....


not my conspiracy theory. I replied to someone else’s post. you should at least use available measurements and don’t dismiss inconsistencies in how you are reading posts. No apologies required.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 22, 2020)

Ramage said:


> Defeating CMOS clocks has been something we have been doing for years.
> 
> When I was taking my MCSE (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer) way back in 1999 we would defeat the trial license on Windows Server 2K all the time by tricking the system into thinking it was 1998 so the 120 day trial we were suppose to have was now a year and 120 days. (MS fixed this long ago) but there is still tons of software apps the rely on the date of install to determine things...
> 
> ...


However his method did NOT reset that countdown timer In 4k 60P and 8K to "Full recovery". He only got 5 minutes. That doesn't indicate FULL recovery.


----------



## allanP (Aug 22, 2020)

AlanF said:


> I'd recommend instead a glass of Scotch, preferably a peaty one from Islay. Just slowly savour the Scotch while the camera cools down. Won't void the warranty either.


Laphroaig could taste good


----------



## Pierre Lagarde (Aug 22, 2020)

Yes, probably... it's the solution


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 22, 2020)

Ramage said:


> Defeating CMOS clocks has been something we have been doing for years.
> 
> When I was taking my MCSE (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer) way back in 1999 we would defeat the trial license on Windows Server 2K all the time by tricking the system into thinking it was 1998 so the 120 day trial we were suppose to have was now a year and 120 days. (MS fixed this long ago) but there is still tons of software apps the rely on the date of install to determine things...
> 
> ...



When I reconnect my car battery, immediately I see my thermometer working


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 22, 2020)

Pierre Lagarde said:


> Yes, probably... it's the solution


Fake... how come people in the video not wearing face masks and disrespect social distancing rules? Canon lies again


----------



## Surab (Aug 22, 2020)

Why does no one talk about the Chinese user who actually took the camera apart?

I am glad that I don't need to buy a new camera yet, but I am eyeing the EOS R + 24-105L. I am curious to see how this plays out. I would not support Canon, if it actually turns out that they are lying about the overheating and instead just but and artificial timer in place to pretend to be overheating.


I think the biggest clue of why this might not be a deliberate is the fact that Canon has a history of leaving out features (which is fair as the customer can decide if they want to support that). So I don't see why they would not simply put a time limit of N min on those modes and be done with it. Can't imagine that the few people not buying cinema gear is worth all the bad PR.


----------



## Deleted member 384473 (Aug 22, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> The R5 can record 4K all day for those that need it. However for those that need it the R5, indeed any Canon hybrid short of the 1DC, would be a poor choice as apart from that 1DC they all have a 29:59 single shot limit unless shooting to external, which virtually everybody shooting long form 4K would be doing anyway. Of course by that point, recording externally, the R5 has been demonstrated to be able to shoot 8k and 4kHQ (full capture downsampled 8k) pretty much without time limits too.
> 
> At some point all these straw man criticisms of the R5 will collapse, genuine users rather than keyboard cowboys with nothing between their ears but air will find workflows for whatever it is they need and there will be no end of top quality content coming from them. Meanwhile the cowboys will have moved on to the next target of their collective angst, however I have a better suggestion for those cowboys, face into a mirror and see where the real issues and lack of creativity lie, it isn’t in the ‘limitations’ of any particular piece of equipment.
> 
> i was trying to think of the last time a Canon body release got this much hate, it doesn’t take much looking as it was the R, not a good word was said about it at release, six months later many of those mouthpieces had adopted it and were praising its abilities.....


Just to clear things up:

You can’t record 8K external.

Can get 4K24 /4K30 HQ external for a little over an hour with heat control on. 3-4 hours with no card in camera. That is good news. 

4K is obviously softer than Sony and obviously all HQ modes. 

Giddy up!


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 22, 2020)

JIM JIM said:


> Just to clear things up:
> 
> You can’t record 8K external.
> 
> ...


2.5 hours with cards in camera, externally with battery grip (4K60 full sensor All-I via external recording only):






Canon EOS R5 firmware update coming soon, RAW light to be added? [CR2]


Yep, being down for 6 days is bad. Like Garmin I am sure Canon will recover. Yeah I hope so too...




www.canonrumors.com


----------



## Viggo (Aug 22, 2020)

Surab said:


> ... Can't imagine that the few people not buying cinema gear is worth all the bad PR.


Yes, my thoughts exactly. Well put


----------



## Deleted member 384473 (Aug 22, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> 2.5 hours with cards in camera, externally with battery grip (4K60 full sensor All-I via external recording only):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s 4K60...Can record with no limit externally there. 4K24 HQ / 4K30 HQ are different stories. It’s really important you’re clear in what info you’re spreading. I’m seeing a lot of misinformation - probably due to lots of independent tests and people not taking the time to understand them. 

No external 8K. (Canon) 

4K24 HQ / 4K30 HQ 3-4 hours externally w/ no cards in camera. (No Life) 

4K60 external - No overheat limit (Gerald Undone)


----------



## vangelismm (Aug 22, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> When I reconnect my car battery, immediately I see my thermometer working



That's the point some users do not want see. 

If the warning was real, it should reappears as soon as the baterry is connected again.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 22, 2020)

JIM JIM said:


> That’s 4K60...Can record with no limit externally there. 4K24 HQ / 4K30 HQ are different stories. It’s really important you’re clear in what info you’re spreading. I’m seeing a lot of misinformation - probably due to lots of independent tests and people not taking the time to understand them.
> 
> No external 8K. (Canon)
> 
> ...


Here we go again :

+++ *It’s really important you’re clear in what info you’re spreading.* I’m seeing a lot of misinformation - probably due to lots of independent tests

A.M.: show me what part of my post is misinformation. read it again:

2.5 hours with cards in camera, externally with battery grip (4K60 full sensor All-I via external recording only)


----------



## jam05 (Aug 22, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> This is just sad. Defeating a warning is not solving the problem. If I broke the seat belt warning in my car, does that mean I'm now safe not wearing one?
> 
> So, so tired of all these fools who know nothing about electronics components, cooling, or firmware. More sick of those repeating it for web profit. These people are only looking for clicks and refuse to accept the camera as designed. Not a shred of engineering experience among them apparently.
> 
> ...


It didn't solve the problem any how. It doesn't reset the cool down timer to "FULL Recovery". 5 minutes isn't full recovery. The issues is only in the high resolution 4k 60 and 8k modes. Even when measuring the camera's internal temperature at 60 - 73F after returning from an Overheat state, the cool down timer doesn't appear to be working propperly. Canon does not say precislywhat the Full Recovery temperature shoul be in their Media Alert. It should be as stated in the manual for the corresponding media size.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 22, 2020)

JIM JIM said:


> That’s 4K60...Can record with no limit externally there. 4K24 HQ / 4K30 HQ are different stories. It’s really important you’re clear in what info you’re spreading. I’m seeing a lot of misinformation - probably due to lots of independent tests and people not taking the time to understand them.
> 
> No external 8K. (Canon)
> 
> ...



I'd rather pay hundreds of $$ for an external recorder than hundreds of $$ on a damn card


----------



## Deleted member 384473 (Aug 22, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Here we go again :
> 
> +++ *It’s really important you’re clear in what info you’re spreading.* I’m seeing a lot of misinformation - probably due to lots of independent tests
> 
> ...


Ah, fair. You’re right. Apologies. I jumped the gun on you because I was too focused on 24/30 and answering the initial post. That is my bad, you did state clearly 60FPS. 

All in all, I think if someone really wants the R5 to work for them, they definitely can with an external recorder. Also, with these RF cinema cameras around the corner, it would be a pretty cool pairing.


----------



## -pekr- (Aug 22, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> not my conspiracy theory. I replied to someone else’s post. you should at least use available measurements and don’t dismiss inconsistencies in how you are reading posts. No apologies required.



You're bold as usually. I don't give a ..., who do you comment, more so, if you can't properly quote posts, introducing your own markup. It is you who mentioned a conspiracy theory, without giving any explanation to possible measurements ppl made.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 22, 2020)

JIM JIM said:


> Ah, fair. You’re right. Apologies. I jumped the gun on you because I was too focused on 24/30 and answering the initial post. That is my bad, you did state clearly 60FPS.
> 
> All in all, I think if someone really wants the R5 to work for them, they definitely can with an external recorder. Also, with these RF cinema cameras around the corner, it would be a pretty cool pairing.


No worries. Yes, for the price of those high capacity CFE cards....And additional benefit of having prores codec in the external recorder.


----------



## -pekr- (Aug 22, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> The R5 can record 4K all day for those that need it. However for those that need it the R5, indeed any Canon hybrid short of the 1DC, would be a poor choice as apart from that 1DC they all have a 29:59 single shot limit unless shooting to external, which virtually everybody shooting long form 4K would be doing anyway. Of course by that point, recording externally, the R5 has been demonstrated to be able to shoot 8k and 4kHQ (full capture downsampled 8k) pretty much without time limits too.
> 
> At some point all these straw man criticisms of the R5 will collapse, genuine users rather than keyboard cowboys with nothing between their ears but air will find workflows for whatever it is they need and there will be no end of top quality content coming from them. Meanwhile the cowboys will have moved on to the next target of their collective angst, however I have a better suggestion for those cowboys, face into a mirror and see where the real issues and lack of creativity lie, it isn’t in the ‘limitations’ of any particular piece of equipment.
> 
> i was trying to think of the last time a Canon body release got this much hate, it doesn’t take much looking as it was the R, not a good word was said about it at release, six months later many of those mouthpieces had adopted it and were praising its abilities.....



Now really - what is that? Calling those, who possibly care about their money spent, being a cowboys? Noone (maybe apart from video folks) is neglecting, R5 is probably the best all-aroundre nowadays. But why to call such ppl a cowboys, if there is something fishy about the recovery times, unless explained? Stating that you can shoot 4K HQ video for certain times is completly different to finding out, that after using camera for stills you might actually get zeroed out for the video.

The argument of the quality content R5 will eventually deliver, reminds me of the arguments of Sony A7SIII defenders re stills photos, bringing up memories, when you could do quality photo using 6 mpx ... Surely you could. But please let ppl sort out the situation re video. They deserve to find out, what are exact video times they can easily depend upon, no strings attached ...


----------



## Surab (Aug 22, 2020)

Viggo said:


> Yes, my thoughts exactly. Well put



The problems is I am actually on the half empty side of this cup....... I really can't see Canon making this happen by accident.

The saving grace assumption I have is that the IBIS unit - these are first-gen Canon IBIS FF cameras - might actually be damaged easier by warmth, so they are being crazy protective. But that would mean that the camera is poorly engineered from the get-go. 

So yeah, let's wait and see. The people that already have units can at least enjoy the beautiful photos and videos it takes.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 22, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> You're bold as usually. I don't give a ..., who do you comment, more so, if you can't properly quote posts, introducing your own markup. It is you who mentioned a conspiracy theory, without giving any explanation to possible measurements ppl made.


Say what... here is what I said:

“Canon's decision to intentionally cripple the R5” is yet another conspiracy theory.

meaning: I do not trust that Canon intentionally crippled the R5. Do you??

so I guess you cannot properly read? And if you can, Perhaps you could start (let me quote you) “giving a.... “ before jumping in a conversation.


----------



## AlanF (Aug 22, 2020)

allkar said:


> Laphroaig could taste good


One of my favourites.


----------



## Whowe (Aug 22, 2020)

One thing I think a lot of people are missing with the temperature and timer thing is that in thermodynamics, heat damage is not always just about the measured temperature. Heat damage can be caused by a cumulative heat effect. This about a pizza in an oven. The temperature in the space is at 400 F, but it takes time for the heat to transfer into the product and heat up the internal product. (Note: this is most true for items that are not themselves the main heat producer, but the heat is produced from a different source.)

"Cooking" (i.e. heat transfer) is a combination of heat and time. And it is not just one set pair of values (400F for 12 minutes). It is a relative scale, such that higher temps result in shorter times to reach an internal temperature.

First, we need to be clear where the measured temperature is located at. Is the EXIF temp from the processor?

Second, what is the component that is most sensitive to heat build up and needs protection? Sensor? Processor? other circuitry?

When you look at all the comments saying it has to be a fake timer issue, but the values are never exactly the same, as an engineer I simply see an algorithm for accumulated heat using both temperatures and time. For example, in the video, when he battery is put back in the camera, he gets 5 minutes. That would be based just on the current temperature, since there is no saved accumulated heat information saved.

If the critical component is internal to the sensor and has some measure of "insulation" such that it does not heat up or cool down quickly with a temperature differential, you can not just go by the EXIF temp, or surface measured temp, etc.

Just something to think about!


----------



## kalieaire (Aug 22, 2020)

Trigger warning for that easily removable hand strap.


----------



## Pierre Lagarde (Aug 22, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Fake... how come people in the video not wearing face masks and disrespect social distancing rules? Canon lies again


Indeed, I missed that. 
Sorry, my bad : if you want to tape a youtuber, please, for your own safety, wear a mask  ...


----------



## briangus (Aug 22, 2020)

allkar said:


> Laphroaig could taste good


Caol Ila may be more appropriate in this case and a damn fine Whisky


----------



## Viggo (Aug 22, 2020)

briangus said:


> Caol Ila may be more appropriate in this case and a damn fine Whisky


Throw in a Lagavulyn 16 for good measure.


----------



## zim (Aug 22, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> totally agree!!
> 
> Something very fishy is going on with CanNot


Please don't do the cheap 'CanNot' pish, you've had some valid points.


----------



## AlanF (Aug 22, 2020)

Had to pour myself a Smokehead from Islay. Highly recommended.


----------



## Whowe (Aug 22, 2020)

You are making me thirsty. Time to go to the store...


----------



## xlksii (Aug 22, 2020)

goldenhusky said:


> When he removes the battery and restarts recording it gives only 5 mins. That tells me Canon have a temperature sensor and firmware limitation combined.


In the comments he says he repeated the test three times and got 5 mins each time. Maybe he only started the test with 5 mins remaining and that's why the camera returns to this value.


----------



## cornieleous (Aug 22, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> The guy is not trying to solve the problem, nor does he suggest it as being a solution. All he is trying to provide is the possible proof, that there might be an artificial timer used, instead of the thermal read-out.
> 
> You are too bold to mark all internet being just armchair fools. Many ppl might have some technical backgroud. E.g. I am an IT guy for 30 years, we have built Astro CCD camera, doing the HW, firmware, software and all that.
> 
> ...



I give credit when due even on the interwebs, and all I have seen so far are whiners and armchair engineers making idle speculation or outright controversy out of nothing. Speculation taken too far makes people fools. No offense, but IT doesn't make you an expert in the Canon R5 thermals. Neither do people pointing a FLIR at the R5 suddenly know all about the situation. None of these tests equate to die temperatures for ASICs and other internals, and you have no idea what temperature threshold is the protection limit for these parts. Some parts really don't like to be hot over their lifetime and so for reliability are kept at lower temperatures.

I have specific experience with high speed circuit design and thermal management and will leave it at that, but I would never go around speculating I understand a design unless I did the thermal analysis or pulled out schematics or looked at the code for ASICs, FPGAs or uControllers myself. To pretend I know, even with my experience, is a lie unless I have done adequate testing and reverse engineering. On a product like this, insanely compact and complicated, that isn't going to happen from some youtube test. To sit around doing inane amateur tests and then to make biased assumptions about artificial timers and blah blah blah is people stoking their ego, NOT honest intellectual discourse. Sometimes saying "I don't know" is the best course, but too many people don't like the feeling of admitting it, even when the subject matter is way out of their area of knowledge.

Calling the time limits artificial or fishy in the first place is an assumption and an emotional label. Engineers have to make a choice on how to put in stops around various physical realities of the components and their interaction as a system. Even if the record times WERE arbitrarily chosen, SO WHAT?! Canon told us about it including the part about other camera activity reducing those times. So for the millionth time I suggest people go buy another camera if you don't like it instead of falsely acting like some detective! Since people are not having an honest discussion about how electronics and product engineering actually work, I will continue to down play what these people are saying because the way they are going about this is amateurish, has an unintelligent and non-rigorous tone, and the vast majority of them have an agenda of some sort: to get clicks or prove the camera is flawed. It isn't; Canon told us exactly how it behaves before shipping started.

There are plenty of reasons the camera internals might heat up just in the menu or shooting stills. In my own tests, just using the EVF for long periods of time generates heat. IBIS also seems to generate heat. Try a 1 hour timelapse at 5 second intervals and just disabling those two is the difference between a warm and cold body at the end of the hour. So I could draw conclusions from my own amateur test that something about the heat and cooling is real, not artificial, but why bother? The camera worsk for me as designed. I'm sure everyone has heard that removing the CFE card helps. SERDES for the CFE might always runs idle characters even without data flowing. We could speculate all day. I could do some pretty fancy tests if I really wanted to, or I could buy the right tool for the job (which I did, and it's a pretty great camera with a few flaws like every product must have).

If Canon has some errors to fix or optimizations for the firmware that make this better, great. Not uncommon for new product. If they actually made a hardware mistake and fix it, great, but I find that very unlikely. However, until I hear well researched logic that doesn't fall apart trivially I will keep calling out all these hokey tests and assumptions for what they are: hot air (see what I did there)? 

The only testing I've seen that actually benefits anyone is from those actually working with the camera instead of trying to make it fail, or providing workarounds like using external recorders- those people are accepting the camera for what it is at least instead of continuing on this path of labeling things nefarious or fishy or artificial or whatever.


----------



## cornieleous (Aug 22, 2020)

t.linn said:


> Your rant ignores the possibility that Canon is simply lying about the extent of the overheating problem to provide cover for once again needlessly crippling a camera body. It doesn't take an advanced engineering degree to look at data that suggests actual internal temperatures are completely uncorrelated to temperature warnings and shutdowns and conclude that the whole situation is simply the result of a software cripple dressed up as a design necessity. Even if you're fine with Canon's decision to intentionally cripple the R5, I don't know how you can defend lying about it.



You have zero evidence to support your chosen belief. You think you are a victim and your statement is rife with logical fallacies. What more needs to be said? You are already rabidly convinced you know the answer and you don;t even demand rigorous understanding of engineering. It shows the dishonesty in your method of thinking. All you care about is reaching the same conclusion every time: cripple hammer, cripple hammer, squawk!

I don't call engineering OR marketing decisions a cripple because I am an adult who both understands that no product is perfect, has technical knowledge sufficient to not makeup inane beliefs, and I can select the proper tool for the job when I buy a camera. Canon told everyone what the camera can do and it does it. There are other options on the market- choose one. I own 3 brands and types of cameras for different jobs and I don;t go around whining endlessly at the limitations of each, or expect one company will come along and make the perfect One Camera.


----------



## Skyscraperfan (Aug 22, 2020)

Wasn't Canon also the company which stopped printer cartridges from working after a defined number of prints to force people to buy a new one, although the old one was still good for thousands of prints, if you hacked the counter?


----------



## allanP (Aug 22, 2020)

briangus said:


> Caol Ila may be more appropriate in this case and a damn fine Whisky





Viggo said:


> Throw in a Lagavulyn 16 for good measure.



Somehow it doesn't matter which camera you're talking about. It all sounds good
... and everything is deliverable ....


----------



## Surab (Aug 22, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> I give credit when due even on the interwebs, and all I have seen so far are whiners and armchair engineers making idle speculation or outright controversy out of nothing. Speculation taken too far makes people fools. No offense, but IT doesn't make you an expert in the Canon R5 thermals. Neither do people pointing a FLIR at the R5 suddenly know all about the situation. None of these tests equate to die temperatures for ASICs and other internals, and you have no idea what temperature threshold is the protection limit for these parts. Some parts really don't like to be hot over their lifetime and so for reliability are kept at lower temperatures.
> 
> I have specific experience with high speed circuit design and thermal management and will leave it at that, but I would never go around speculating I understand a design unless I did the thermal analysis or pulled out schematics or looked at the code for ASICs, FPGAs or uControllers myself. To pretend I know, even with my experience, is a lie unless I have done adequate testing and reverse engineering. On a product like this, insanely compact and complicated, that isn't going to happen from some youtube test. To sit around doing inane amateur tests and then to make biased assumptions about artificial timers and blah blah blah is people stoking their ego, NOT honest intellectual discourse. Sometimes saying "I don't know" is the best course, but too many people don't like the feeling of admitting it, even when the subject matter is way out of their area of knowledge.
> 
> ...



That's all fair and square and my assumption is still that this is due to the first-gen IBIS unit in the camera which can't take the heat. But several people tested this camera at 4C, 15C, or 25C and all of them find that even just some photos or idle time will decrease the record times to a handful of minutes with recovery times of +30min to be able to shoot in the advertised modes again. Thus I do truly wonder whether this device is not very poorly engineered since it does not really deliver *consistently* what it advertises and needs apparently super special care to not fall apart internally (some hyperbole there, but it is meant to illustrate a point). If these internal heat problems are real I would worry about shooting sports in the summer in hot regions under the sun, too.

Besides, why would it be unlikely for Canon to have made a hardware mistake? This is there first attempt at IBIS. Plenty of space for issues already there. And you only accept the tests by people that accept the camera with its limitations and thus work around them? Isn't that some really strong bias? Literally every review so far has said that 8K and 4K HQ are ruled useless due to recovery time, but this is irrelevant to you because they have not fiddled around with the camera to open up card slots or attach external recorders without batteries inserted to make things work that are on the spec sheet? Some of these measures also render the weather sealing moot. So at that point it's not an EOS R5 anymore which is weather sealed and offer 4K HQ.

Meanwhile, I really hope there is some simple FW fix around the corner that unlocks the true potential of this camera since the 4K HQ is truly beautiful and it deserves to be able to be used by capable hands without the immense restrictions that the current situation puts on them.


----------



## SvetlovMisha (Aug 22, 2020)

i am sorry, i am late, who is on duty today?) i mean, is it been discussed that the method of pulling out the battery brokes the recorded file?
so, the method confirms canon's counter but nothing else, you cannot record 8k continuously


----------



## bjornjd (Aug 22, 2020)

SvetlovMisha said:


> i am sorry, i am late, who is on duty today?) i mean, is it been discussed that the method of pulling out the battery brokes the recorded file?
> so, the method confirms canon's counter but nothing else, you cannot record 8k continuously



But you don’t have to wait a couple of hours to continue recording in 8K.

The big problem for me is that it seems the camera is reading it’s temp from a timer rather than getting a value from the thermometer.

I hope this is fixed in a firmware update.


----------



## SvetlovMisha (Aug 22, 2020)

bjornjd said:


> But you don’t have to wait a couple of hours to continue recording in 8K.


also you don't have to record anything bcz the file will be corrupted while you pull out the battery


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Aug 23, 2020)

Who could be arsed.. seriously.


----------



## TracerHD (Aug 23, 2020)

Did anyone "opend" the R5-software yet, or are the "internal timers" an result of try and error and a "logical consequence" of "it has to be that" ?


----------



## Otara (Aug 23, 2020)

Its all just overclocking really.

Yes Canon might have done something to sell this at a price point, just like Intel has in the past. If they have thats less a moral catastrophe and more potentially a huge opportunity.

Yes theres the usual groups of 'it willl explooode' vs the 'theres no risk at all'. Depending on the particular CPU, you either saw massive increases or dead chips. My personal view is this is more like trying to overclock a laptop than a desktop. I salute those who will carry out those early tests to see which it is, it wont be me.


----------



## YuengLinger (Aug 23, 2020)

Will duct tape work just as well? I do have my reputation to maintain!


----------



## fingerstein (Aug 23, 2020)

Wanted dead, not alive: Canon Timer. Reward is building up.


----------



## canonnews (Aug 23, 2020)

What people are assuming here is that it's ONE temperature reading. I wanted to write an article specifically about this one video, but I'm tired of talking about overheating.

you can't do prediction based upon one temperature value, but need a series to be able to tell if the internal temperatures are going up or going down and rate in which they are. only with that, and armed with foreknowledge on how much atypically rate in which temperature increases with recording can you roughly predict how long you can record for.

Canon is probably keeping those in local memory and dumping it all to nvram when the camera shuts down.

not writing that probably just gets the camera to throw up it's arms and go well this is screwed .. let's start with 5 minutes.

There is STILL some wonky code in there. but is it wonky with purpose or just the fact that someone made bad assumptions when writing firmware? That we don't know, and probably never will.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Aug 23, 2020)

canonnews said:


> What people are assuming here is that it's ONE temperature reading. I wanted to write an article specifically about this one video, but I'm tired of talking about overheating.
> 
> you can't do prediction based upon one temperature value, but need a series to be able to tell if the internal temperatures are going up or going down and rate in which they are. only with that, and armed with foreknowledge on how much atypically rate in which temperature increases with recording can you roughly predict how long you can record for.
> 
> ...


Mad respect for not writing another article about this. 

I salute you!!!!


----------



## canonnews (Aug 23, 2020)

Ramage said:


> Mad respect for not writing another article about this.
> 
> I salute you!!!!


haha. I actually still have the article up on my screen. I don't know, but you know it's too much. the REAL problem isn't the R5 right now, it's Canon's silence.


----------



## jvillain (Aug 23, 2020)

Maybe Magic Lantern will crack this one day and be able to tell us what is really going on. If you look at what they did for the 5DII it was amazing.

In the mean time winter is coming to the North side of the world. If these things still claim to be over heating in a Canadian Winter @ -35C with the wind blowing I will never buy another Canon Camera.


----------



## analoggrotto (Aug 23, 2020)

canonnews said:


> haha. I actually still have the article up on my screen. I don't know, but you know it's too much. the REAL problem isn't the R5 right now, it's Canon's silence.


Between the stock shortages and internet outrage, I do hope Canon remembers what put it on the map. Performance and specification did not alone elevate them to #1.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Aug 23, 2020)

canonnews said:


> haha. I actually still have the article up on my screen. I don't know, but you know it's too much. the REAL problem isn't the R5 right now, it's Canon's silence.


Yeah I think an official "We are working on bug fixes and looking to improve recovery times" that will help.

They have to resist the temptation to say nothing even if they feel this is all much to do about nothing.


----------



## canonnews (Aug 23, 2020)

jvillain said:


> Maybe Magic Lantern will crack this one day and be able to tell us what is really going on. If you look at what they did for the 5DII it was amazing.
> 
> In the mean time winter is coming to the North side of the world. If these things still claim to be over heating in a Canadian Winter @ -35C with the wind blowing I will never buy another Canon Camera.


has Magic Lantern cracked any recent camera?


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 23, 2020)

canonnews said:


> the REAL problem isn't the R5 right now, it's Canon's silence.



To be fair to Canon, if they are looking at alternative bitrates I would guess that in itself is not a small piece of work. They will not only have to test it quite exhaustively, but they will also have to provide reliable timings. Add to this, they may well provide that beta fw to various sites at least a week in advance.

Now if they want to adjust timings in the fw to be a little less conservative, well that would take longer too. And no doubt those engineers would have been assigned to other products which they are trying to launch as well as other firmware issues (I think I may have found a small bug, but the workaround is easy).

Bottom line - if Canon states anything before they have additional firmware, then they are admitting indeed there is an issue and that leaves them exposed. If they offer some different bitrate modes without changing anything else then they’re saying we wanted to include these, but couldn’t before - no culpability.

I went out with the R and R5 yesterday just to do some further tests - fairly static birds, and honestly if I could sell both my Rs for a grand each, I think I would buy another r5. After a week with it, I will accept the downsides because for me the benefits outweigh them. And maybe I was a little unrealistic. 

Whereas I completely accept that an Atomos may be a solution for some (many?) I honestly cannot see me ever using one (the practicality means for me it would only work for landscapes) - my bag is full enough as it is, so adding another system with different batteries, a cage, a charger doesn’t quite make sense for me (especially if I am flying anywhere). I’m hoping lower bitrate modes may help. If not the 800 I saved by not buying the Atomos with selling two Rs means I have my 2nd R5, and if I could ditch the 5dsr and 5iv, then I could get a 3rd one which my gf could use it on holiday - ha ha. It’s nice to dream.


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 23, 2020)

Ramage said:


> Yeah I think an official "We are working on bug fixes and looking to improve recovery times" that will help.
> 
> They have to resist the temptation to say nothing even if they feel this is all much to do about nothing.


But doesn’t that admit there is a “problem”? I think that may leave them open unless it was a bug and that in itself points to poor testing...

The more I read here (thanks to those who have provided sound reasoning), the more I think it will be just additional modes.

I may be wrong, but is it not the case that Japanese culture frowns on admitting failure? Isn’t that why Olympus are selling their photo division so that someone else can dispose of it quietly, and there is no loss of face. Would Canon admit that they didn’t test their flagship r series and there is an easy to find bug?


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 23, 2020)

tanne said:


> How many people REALLY need 8K video? Right now...


It gives you the same advantages as high sensor MP for stills shooting

Ability to crop your video - be that for better composition, "zooming" in on your main subject and other fx
Less so now they have IBIS, but higher res modes were better when stabilising footage
Downsample to 4K - with less noise and better quality (hence why Canon offers downsampling in other modes)
Bottom line, if you could shoot the same in 8K (ignoring processing etc), then you have more flexibility but yes it is 4x the data potentially.

Canon offered it, why would I not want to use it?


----------



## Ben Sparrow (Aug 23, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Generally, in the USA, a modification, temp or permanent, that defeats a built-in safeguard would violate a warranty--if the manufacturer knew about such a mod.
> 
> But this all seems too desperate too soon. I'd think somebody who depends on highest quality 4k video would have dedicated equipment.
> 
> ...



Spot on. I have a dedicated camera for my 4K needs. I considered the R5 but due to my needs I went and bought a Canon C200B for basically the same money (100 bucks more).


----------



## canonnews (Aug 23, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Generally, in the USA, a modification, temp or permanent, that defeats a built-in safeguard would violate a warranty--if the manufacturer knew about such a mod.
> 
> But this all seems too desperate too soon. I'd think somebody who depends on highest quality 4k video would have dedicated equipment.



No Life Digital proved that there's almost zero difference between 4k HQ and 4k non-HQ when you apply a bit of sharpening in post (or use clarity slider).
you simply can't tell the difference even looking 100% at the stills snap from the 4K output. Video processing follows really the same rules as photography - we all know we can't just take default JPEG out of the camera and not sharpen it to get the best out of it. so why would video be any different?

which actually makes sense. downsampling is a natural "sharpen", so applying sharpening to the non HQ version, simply makes it for all purposes, very similar. You get line jaggies because line skipping but zero people are going to see that on video.

IMO too much is made of downsampling without knowing the real difference that it can achieve. There may be better color fidelity,etc but how much would you actually see on video versus a still image that you can subjectively look at for minutes?


----------



## canonnews (Aug 23, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> It gives you the same advantages as high sensor MP for stills shooting
> 
> Ability to crop your video - be that for better composition, "zooming" in on your main subject and other fx
> Less so now they have IBIS, but higher res modes were better when stabilising footage
> ...


I don't think Canon offered it as a full fledged 8K CINI camera.
Granted their marketting seemed to promise a camera they can't deliver. but if you nail one camera company's marketting to the wall, you may as well takt them all becuase they have all been guilty of over promising from a marketing standpoint.


----------



## DBounce (Aug 23, 2020)

You do not need to use this ridiculous Scotchtape foolishness. Here are instructions for how to accomplish the same thing without the need for monkey rigging your camera:


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Aug 23, 2020)

I'm just curious, had anyone from this thread tried to reproduce these hacks? Anybody tried to actually verify any of these methods?
Or people are whining about something they haven't even tried on?


----------



## SvetlovMisha (Aug 23, 2020)

DBounce said:


> ridiculous Scotchtape foolishness


so, damaged files still there? can you try to stop record and pull the battery after that, i guess not gonna work, i guess the overheating timer not gonna reset


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 23, 2020)

canonnews said:


> haha. I actually still have the article up on my screen. I don't know, but you know it's too much. the REAL problem isn't the R5 right now, it's Canon's silence.


Oh, definitely post the article. We are running low on a good reading around the issue. I am not being sarcastic here. Too much noise in the channel but not much good stuff.


----------



## nikkito (Aug 23, 2020)

While you keep on trying to use a photo camera as a video camera, I've been enjoying it for stills and it's a joy to use. I think if your main interest is video, then maybe you have chosen the wrong instrument  

By the way, 4k works with no overheating anyway.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 23, 2020)

nikkito said:


> While you keep on trying to use a photo camera as a video camera, I've been enjoying it for stills and it's a joy to use. I think if your main interest is video, then maybe you have chosen the wrong instrument
> 
> By the way, 4k works with no overheating anyway.



They keep trying to use the video features Canon hyped to be "revolutionary" and "ground breaking", but it keeps overheating and takes forever to cool down.

*Most* of the 4K modes do overheat.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 23, 2020)

Ramage said:


> Yeah I think an official "We are working on bug fixes and looking to improve recovery times" that will help.
> 
> They have to resist the temptation to say nothing even if they feel this is all much to do about nothing.



I dunno, I'd be happy with a picture of an upraised middle finger and the simple caption, "this is to the trolls."


----------



## masterpix (Aug 23, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Does it solve the problem or just treat the symptoms?. You can give someone Advil (sorry for the hidden publicity) but that will reduce the heat, not recover the person from flue. It looks like they found a way to "bypass" the overheat warning not solve the real issue (which is an inherent issue to any high duty electronic devices that records 8K video) , and I am quite sure that by doing this, they will, eventually, harm the system. There is a reason for this procedure of shut-down and cool down, and I don't think that by "tricking it" is really do any good for the camera. It can be a 3500$ mistake, an expensive one..


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 23, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I don't think Canon offered it as a full fledged 8K CINI camera.
> Granted their marketting seemed to promise a camera they can't deliver. but if you nail one camera company's marketting to the wall, you may as well takt them all becuase they have all been guilty of over promising from a marketing standpoint.


I agree, I was answering the question does anyone Need 8k


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 23, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I'm just curious, had anyone from this thread tried to reproduce these hacks? Anybody tried to actually verify any of these methods?
> Or people are whining about something they haven't even tried on?


I'm not prepared to risk my R5, and it wouldn't surprise me if Canon had a way of knowing. Or if not, they sure will with the next firmware release. I tried the different cards approach (3 UHS II) - made no difference. I'm impressed one guy in the states I believe, is happy to put his R5 in a ziplock bag in the fridge, another guy did the same in a freezer. Not for me.


----------



## Diltiazem (Aug 23, 2020)

A puzzle has 100 pieces with complex interrelationships. We are not even sure if we found 5 pieces and yet we claim to have solved the puzzle. We are curious beings, that doesn't mean that we can't be a bit scientific in our thinking and admit that we don't know.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 23, 2020)

Diltiazem said:


> A puzzle has 100 pieces with complex interrelationships. We are not even sure if we found 5 pieces and yet we claim to have solved the puzzle. We are curious beings, that doesn't mean that we can't be a bit scientific in our thinking and admit that we don't know.



"We" do not claim to have solved the puzzle.

Though I realize you were probably sarcastically addressing someone else.

Some individuals who think they know more than they do (they are lacking in their knowledge of scientific methodology and physics) but who have a "trash Canon" agenda, are trying to get ego boost by hacking a system they don't understand.


----------



## Diltiazem (Aug 23, 2020)

SteveC said:


> "We" do not claim to have solved the puzzle.
> 
> Though I realize you were probably sarcastically addressing someone else.
> 
> Some individuals who think they know more than they do (they are lacking in their knowledge of scientific methodology and physics) but who have a "trash Canon" agenda, are trying to get ego boost by hacking a system they don't understand.


It wasn't directed at you. You are right, I was addressing some folks here and on the internet, you have described some of their characteristics well.


----------



## -pekr- (Aug 23, 2020)

canonnews said:


> haha. I actually still have the article up on my screen. I don't know, but you know it's too much. the REAL problem isn't the R5 right now, it's Canon's silence.



With really big companies and various corporate cultures, it is no excpetion to just stay silent to public stuff. In fact I was surprised Canon provided some statement earlier. I prefer companies to communicate and being transparent, but I also can understand, when they don't react to public reactions, unless it is hurting their business / reputation.


----------



## AlanF (Aug 23, 2020)

There are just some people who enjoy more playing with their new toys rather than taking photos.


----------



## wockawocka (Aug 23, 2020)

I read a lot of people complaining that this isn't a fix. Well, it was never a fix, more of an investigative proof of concept.

That battery grip pull is cool though.

Set your camera to record a certain setting.
Turn off the camera normally to commit the setting to long term memory.
Start recording.
Stop recording to protect the files
Pull the battery

(Caveat - I don't know if the process of stopping to save / protect the file commits the timer setting to long term memory, but if it doesn't then that's how to continuously record without delay).


----------



## -pekr- (Aug 23, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> I give credit when due even on the interwebs, and all I have seen so far are whiners and armchair engineers making idle speculation or outright controversy out of nothing. Speculation taken too far makes people fools. No offense, but IT doesn't make you an expert in the Canon R5 thermals. Neither do people pointing a FLIR at the R5 suddenly know all about the situation. None of these tests equate to die temperatures for ASICs and other internals, and you have no idea what temperature threshold is the protection limit for these parts. Some parts really don't like to be hot over their lifetime and so for reliability are kept at lower temperatures.
> 
> I have specific experience with high speed circuit design and thermal management and will leave it at that, but I would never go around speculating I understand a design unless I did the thermal analysis or pulled out schematics or looked at the code for ASICs, FPGAs or uControllers myself. To pretend I know, even with my experience, is a lie unless I have done adequate testing and reverse engineering. On a product like this, insanely compact and complicated, that isn't going to happen from some youtube test. To sit around doing inane amateur tests and then to make biased assumptions about artificial timers and blah blah blah is people stoking their ego, NOT honest intellectual discourse. Sometimes saying "I don't know" is the best course, but too many people don't like the feeling of admitting it, even when the subject matter is way out of their area of knowledge.
> 
> ...



Cornieleous - this is one of the most consistent repIies I have received, so thanks for that. On the other hand, you have just selected to comment on my IT background, completly leaving the fact, that we have built a complete CCD camera, which means hw, peltier cooling, microchip implementation, accompanied SW etc. And even then, I have admitted I don't dare to have quick conclusion on the recent situation.

The trouble might be with my word "fishy", because there are some inconsistencies, which can't be easily explained. I work for some products as a beta tester and I hope, with your apparent experience, I don't need to tell you, how buggy some products might be and that even some know companies release their products in a certain state, where fixes are coming later. 

So by "fishy" I mean mostly - suspicious. In multiple threads I have expressed my opinion, that I actually don't think, that Canon did anything on purpose and if there is some firmware update, it will just bring few tweaks here or there. Man, I can even imagine the edge case, where camera would have zero thermometers and the timeouts would be based upon some table, consisting of million of measurements at certain conditions. If the camera sealing would cause it being interanlly stable, then why not? And I would still call it a methodology.

So let's see, what happens. Ppl creating crazy workarounds are risking the dameage of their equipment. Yet I believe Canon will provide a firmware update and/or some statement to the recent situation. Or no statement at all, if they don't feel like situation is really hurting them in both reputation / sales areas.


----------



## masterpix (Aug 23, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> I agree, I was answering the question does anyone Need 8k


should someone need 8K video, let them get a VIEOD camera


----------



## YuengLinger (Aug 23, 2020)

Question: Which upsets video-first customers more, the time limit imposed by overheating, or the aggressively long cool down times? 

If it's the cool-down times, and they are unnecessarily long, overly cautious, surely that is something Canon could fix with a firmware update. (BUT Canon would have to convince customers that the new times won't shorten the life of the camera or harm it in other ways.)


----------



## DBounce (Aug 23, 2020)

SvetlovMisha said:


> so, damaged files still there? can you try to stop record and pull the battery after that, i guess not gonna work, i guess the overheating timer not gonna reset


If you stop recording the cripple timer it’s saved.


----------



## DBounce (Aug 23, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Question: Which upsets video-first customers more, the time limit imposed by overheating, or the aggressively long cool down times?
> 
> If it's the cool-down times, and they are unnecessarily long, overly cautious, surely that is something Canon could fix with a firmware update. (BUT Canon would have to convince customers that the new times won't shorten the life of the camera or harm it in other ways.)



Actual cool down time is two minutes. In use the camera never exceeds 64C, which is well within the safety limits of the camera. To understand better it might help to know that Canon enables unlimited 4K HQ if recorded externally. I regularly run my R5 for hours at a time continuously outputting 4K HQ. The camera heats up to normal operating temperature of 64C and stays there the entire time. Please understand image quality remains consistent. There is no image degradation at these temps as some have suggested. And to make a point, this usage is approved by Canon, but strangely, running at the exact same temperature when recording internally... in the exact same mode, is somehow cause for a thermal feature lockout?
Worst still, in reality it only takes 2 minutes for the camera to cool back down to 30C. Literally, just 2 minutes... yet Canon disable these features for 2/hrs plus.
This is clearly deliberate and unfair to customers. The extremely long lockout times are mentioned nowhere in the R5 manual. There is no mention of this on the official website. To this day Canon have not spoken to this matter.

*Key points: *

Unlimited recording is permissible at 64C if recording externally. But yet, at the exact same temperature, if recording internally you are artificially limited to 20 minutes. 
Actual internal cool down time is only two minutes. But Canon has chosen to disable all headline video features for 2/hrs plus. Despite the fact that the camera at no point ever reaches unsafe temperatures.


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 23, 2020)

masterpix said:


> should someone need 8K video, let them get a VIEOD camera


Then why offer it in the r5? And why can’t I record 5 min clips in 8k for my enjoyment without having to buy a dedicated video camera ?


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 23, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> I'm not prepared to risk my R5, and it wouldn't surprise me if Canon had a way of knowing. Or if not, they sure will with the next firmware release. I tried the different cards approach (3 UHS II) - made no difference. I'm impressed *one guy in the states I believe, is happy to put his R5 in a ziplock bag in the fridge, another guy did the same in a freezer.* Not for me.


But will it blend?


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 23, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> Then why offer it in the r5? And why can’t I record 5 min clips in 8k for my enjoyment without having to buy a dedicated video camera ?


because it can do it.

Because the processing power needed to do that creates heat Canon engineers figured might make the camera less reliable over time.

Personally there is no question in my mind I'll take limited functionality as a trade for reliability 100% of the time.

As for your personal 8k clips, do you have an 8k tv to view them on yet? If you do then worrying about any of this is purely for arguments sake and not a genuine concern.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 23, 2020)

masterpix said:


> should someone need 8K video, let them get a VIEOD camera


instead of ever getting an R5?


----------



## BeenThere (Aug 23, 2020)

aljerj said:


> Dude you are missing the point... R5 was supposedly a camera with "pro video features" well, if that is the case why are those features so limited? Canon is selling this camera as a jack of all trades and now we find out that the heat limits on that camera are not determined by the thermostat but by a timer? I do agree, people should not be doing this at home as it might indeed be dangerous, despite the fact that camera does have an actual thermostat with actual overheating protection, so there are 2 real theories as to what is going on, eather Canon is playing it safe and that is the safest way to use the camera for its longevity OR it is true that canon does not want you to have those features unless you dump money on the video camera... well im sorry but the competition offeres the same packedge without overheating, so why should i pick Canon then?


Easy Peasy. You are free to pick any camera you want. Just do it.


----------



## GastonShutters (Aug 23, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



I am a photographer and I also own an electronic engineering Lab. I consulted with my engineers the R5 issue and they told me that you don’t need to heat up excessively to cause damage to certain electronics. While most electronics can run at high temperature with no problem some other components may fail at that temperature.

mine of them could be the sensor. You don’t have to get that high temperature hot to the touch but simply at the electronic component level. Air, metal and plastic actually helps disípate heat but does not prevent electronics from producing heat.

My R5 does heat up to the touch. Not an excessive heat but I’m assuming that internally some components get critically hot for a safe operation.

What I’m watching in this video is Russian roulette. If the camera has that sensor in the battery door compartment, there is a reason for it and tampering with it may hurt the camera and void warranty for sure. It’s like thinking that you won’t ever get a fire in your house because you removed the one detectors.

The R5 is a great Photo camera first. And by the way can shoot some kick as a videos. Some modes for a short period of time some others longer.

I suggest that people wanting ultra high res should consider cinema cameras and not photography cameras or an A7Siii that seemed to have nailed the formula of great video features in a mirrorless body.


----------



## Whowe (Aug 23, 2020)

Did anyone notice that canon replaced the R5 Advanced User Guide with the original guide published about July 29 on the Canon USA Support Page? That was the version with numerous errors...


----------



## Surab (Aug 23, 2020)

DBounce said:


> Actual cool down time is two minutes. In use the camera never exceeds 64C, which is well within the safety limits of the camera. To understand better it might help to know that Canon enables unlimited 4K HQ if recorded externally. I regularly run my R5 for hours at a time continuously outputting 4K HQ. The camera heats up to normal operating temperature of 64C and stays there the entire time. Please understand image quality remains consistent. There is no image degradation at these temps as some have suggested. And to make a point, this usage is approved by Canon, but strangely, running at the exact same temperature when recording internally... in the exact same mode, is somehow cause for a thermal feature lockout?
> Worst still, in reality it only takes 2 minutes for the camera to cool back down to 30C. Literally, just 2 minutes... yet Canon disable these features for 2/hrs plus.
> This is clearly deliberate and unfair to customers. The extremely long lockout times are mentioned nowhere in the R5 manual. There is no mention of this on the official website. To this day Canon have not spoken to this matter.
> 
> ...



Thank you this was a well-written summary.


----------



## Surab (Aug 23, 2020)

GastonShutters said:


> I am a photographer and I also own an electronic engineering Lab. I consulted with my engineers the R5 issue and they told me that you don’t need to heat up excessively to cause damage to certain electronics. While most electronics can run at high temperature with no problem some other components may fail at that temperature.
> 
> mine of them could be the sensor. You don’t have to get that high temperature hot to the touch but simply at the electronic component level. Air, metal and plastic actually helps disípate heat but does not prevent electronics from producing heat.
> 
> ...



But it's not about the short amount of time, but rather that if it's not the first thing you do with, you are locked out them for 0.5-2h. Also you are locked out of them for 0.5-2h.


----------



## YuengLinger (Aug 23, 2020)

DBounce said:


> Actual cool down time is two minutes. In use the camera never exceeds 64C, which is well within the safety limits of the camera. To understand better it might help to know that Canon enables unlimited 4K HQ if recorded externally. I regularly run my R5 for hours at a time continuously outputting 4K HQ. The camera heats up to normal operating temperature of 64C and stays there the entire time. Please understand image quality remains consistent. There is no image degradation at these temps as some have suggested. And to make a point, this usage is approved by Canon, but strangely, running at the exact same temperature when recording internally... in the exact same mode, is somehow cause for a thermal feature lockout?
> Worst still, in reality it only takes 2 minutes for the camera to cool back down to 30C. Literally, just 2 minutes... yet Canon disable these features for 2/hrs plus.
> This is clearly deliberate and unfair to customers. The extremely long lockout times are mentioned nowhere in the R5 manual. There is no mention of this on the official website. To this day Canon have not spoken to this matter.
> 
> ...



Where do you get the data saying that 64C "is well within the safety limits"? And what of the long term effects on various components?


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 23, 2020)

I hate to say this, but this has boiled down to two groups. One group of people who are upset at the thermal limitations and are seeking understanding for a possible solution or hope of a solution from Canon. And another group of people attacking that first group for seemingly no reason other then they want to defend Canon and "their camera."

The R5 is arguably the best 35mm sensor stills camera available right now. If you only care about stills or are perfectly fine with line skipped 4k, then you love this camera. We get it. What the other side doesn't seem to get is that a lot of people want to love this camera, but find it's not a solution for them because of the severe thermal issues. People who have been waiting for a stellar hybrid option from Canon for years now. People who want to use Canon's new RF glass. People who do not want to buy a competitor's camera.

Continually attacking these people and their motives, making excuses for what is clearly a misstep on the part of Canon engineering and Canon marketing, and insisting everything is fine isn't doing Canon any favors. Everything is not fine. This absolutely affects sales and consumer perceptions. No, Canon is not *******. But it's a pretty bad screw up none-the-less.

Keep in mind these issues affect the R6 as well. Limit the R5's video features and it's still a great stills camera which competes with cameras (A7r4, Z7) that don't have comparable video features any way. Limit the R6's video features and it's not that competitive of a camera at its current price point. It would need to drop $500-$750 and even then you'll have a lot of people who pick something else because they want 4k video any time, any place. Not temperature warnings because they shot some stills or played with a menu.

As for me personally: if Canon were to fix this with a firmware update then I would likely add an R5 within the next couple months. If not...hard pass. I'll wait to see if they release the rumored 83-100mp R next year. If I have to carry a separate camera for video any way then I might as well save my money for the resolution bump in stills. 

And that separate camera for video? Looks like it's not going to be Canon. I hate to sacrifice FF and turn to 3rd party adapters, but the X-T3 is stupid cheap right now and it outputs 4k 24/30/60 that's just as good as the over sampled, HQ 4k in the R5 and R6. For the price of an R6 you can outfit an X-T3 with an EF adapter, gimbal, and Ninja. I've literally stuck with FHD and Magic Lantern 2.5k waiting for Canon's real R bodies. (Not to disrespect the R and RP, but they were clearly stop gap cameras.) Those R bodies have dropped and the thermal issues are just too much to deal with for serious video use. I want usable 4k, not excuses.

First world problems I know...but I'm not going to defend Canon on this one. They simply dropped the ball on a camera release that should have been a home run to win the series.


----------



## YuengLinger (Aug 23, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> I hate to say this, but this has boiled down to two groups. One group of people who are upset at the thermal limitations and are seeking understanding for a possible solution or hope of a solution from Canon. And another group of people attacking that first group for seemingly no reason other then they want to defend Canon and "their camera."
> 
> The R5 is arguably the best 35mm sensor stills camera available right now. If you only care about stills or are perfectly fine with line skipped 4k, then you love this camera. We get it. What the other side doesn't seem to get is that a lot of people want to love this camera, but find it's not a solution for them because of the severe thermal issues. People who have been waiting for a stellar hybrid option from Canon for years now. People who want to use Canon's new RF glass. People who do not want to buy a competitor's camera.
> 
> ...



Several fine points, well said. But please don't forget there are antagonizing, unpleasant people posting here and elsewhere for their own reasons--not to help, but just to provoke and be unpleasant. It's not all one side ganging up on the other!


----------



## masterpix (Aug 23, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> Then why offer it in the r5? And why can’t I record 5 min clips in 8k for my enjoyment without having to buy a dedicated video camera ?


Smile, you just proved the point I was making (the camra is a stills camera that enable you for short videos - not a video camera), the R5 video capabilites is for 5 min clips, not long video recording (and for that it won't overheat). If you are for long videos then buy a video camera. The same for stils, if you are for stils, don't buy a video camera that enable stils. Take for instance the new Sony A7, which is a video oriented camera (and it is very good at if as far as I know) but its stils performances are not as high as one would expect from a camera at this time.


----------



## masterpix (Aug 23, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> I hate to say this, but this has boiled down to two groups. One group of people who are upset at the thermal limitations and are seeking understanding for a possible solution or hope of a solution from Canon. And another group of people attacking that first group for seemingly no reason other then they want to defend Canon and "their camera."
> 
> The R5 is arguably the best 35mm sensor stills camera available right now. If you only care about stills or are perfectly fine with line skipped 4k, then you love this camera. We get it. What the other side doesn't seem to get is that a lot of people want to love this camera, but find it's not a solution for them because of the severe thermal issues. People who have been waiting for a stellar hybrid option from Canon for years now. People who want to use Canon's new RF glass. People who do not want to buy a competitor's camera.
> 
> ...


I think it is a matter of expecting something to be more than what it is. take the EOD 6D for example, people were upset with it not to be as versitile as the 5D when the 6D was never intended to be the 5D. The R5/R6 are stills cameras that allows short video clips. It is not a video camera taht allows stills shooting. It is therfore a compermize on the video performances (the over-heating issue). As for the AF, eye tracking and sensor size, those are superb. 

For myself, if the R5 had a OVF (and it seems that then it will be 5Dmark5), than I would brake my savings and get one, for I only shoot stills, and having a "mechanical" 16fps and eye/body tracking... that wold make this picture a lot better than what I got from my 7D.


----------



## BeenThere (Aug 23, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> I hate to say this, but this has boiled down to two groups. One group of people who are upset at the thermal limitations and are seeking understanding for a possible solution or hope of a solution from Canon. And another group of people attacking that first group for seemingly no reason other then they want to defend Canon and "their camera."
> 
> The R5 is arguably the best 35mm sensor stills camera available right now. If you only care about stills or are perfectly fine with line skipped 4k, then you love this camera. We get it. What the other side doesn't seem to get is that a lot of people want to love this camera, but find it's not a solution for them because of the severe thermal issues. People who have been waiting for a stellar hybrid option from Canon for years now. People who want to use Canon's new RF glass. People who do not want to buy a competitor's camera.
> 
> ...


What you seem to be saying is that you are disappointed and upset with Canon for not fulfilling your hopes and dreams with their latest Camera release. This is further complicated by all the pseudo testing by various people attempting to understand exactly what is creating the Camera’s response to lengthy video in the high def modes (heating, timer, whatever). So, it is natural to hope that some of these limitations are artificial and may be remediated in a future firmware release. It seems unlikely to me that any firmware tweaks are ever going to make the videocentric photographers (and pundits) happy with this camera. If you are waiting for that to happen, give it some time, but it is probably not going to do it for you. It is time to move on and start working on plan B, whatever that is for you. Eventually, Canon may give you what you are looking for in a future body, but that could be years. Would you be able to wait that long? We all have to work with what is and not what we wish it to be. If you feel that you have to punish Canon for disappointing you then I guess that badmouthing on this forum is one way to do that.


----------



## TracerHD (Aug 23, 2020)

masterpix said:


> [...] The R5/R6 are stills cameras that allows short video clips. It is not a video camera taht allows stills shooting. It is therfore a compermize on the video performances (the over-heating issue). [...]



Then the "short video clips" would be arround 5min per take it would be ok, but the fact that shooting stills decreases the recording time makes the things more complicated. For me I'm ok with less record time, when taking photos will not decrese the video time. So I could be sure after shooting 1 or 2 hours of stills still be able to do 4k120p 5min.

If shooting stills wouldn't affect the recording times, my use-cases for the features would be:
8K for stills there I expect that 30fps will deliver "that" shot I need, and 35MP are enough.
4k120fps for short moments, I would not film 5min to get the small sequence I need to slow down 4 times, that would be 10 - 20sec start recording before and 10sec after that.
4k60fps for things there 60fps looks better.
4K30fps HQ for that sequenzes and short clips that "need" the extra quality.
and the normal stuff would be filmed with 4k30fps normal / low quality.

That's what I guess. If there would be a client who want all time high quality, best of the best, I would try an external recorder or rent a cinema camera for that time.


----------



## David_E (Aug 23, 2020)

This is probably analogous to driving an automobile with no coolant in the radiator.

4k and 8k video are a marketing scam. If you want to fall for that scam, _buy a video camera_.

A couple of days ago I shot eight hours of continuous video in 1080p with my R5 sitting in the sun in 90+F degrees of heat, pausing only to restart the video every 30 minutes and to change batteries. It performed flawlessly. A 90-second clip from the stream may be seen at *https://vimeo.com/449804025*.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 23, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> What you seem to be saying is that you are disappointed and upset with Canon for not fulfilling your hopes and dreams with their latest Camera release.



*Canon set everyone's expectations with their marketing.* They clarified the capabilities with the recording limits document, but that did not go far enough as *it did not mention the 2 hour timer enforced cool down times.* This is a screw up, not a mismatch of people's 'hopes and dreams' with reality.



> It seems unlikely to me that any firmware tweaks are ever going to make the videocentric photographers (and pundits) happy with this camera.



They would be happy with reasonable cool down times like every other APS-C and larger hybrid that does over sampled 4k without a fan. They all overheat, but they are also usable again after 5-10m. And you don't lose recording time just by turning them on.

There's something truly wonky with the thermal management in the R5 which is why there's so much speculation.


----------



## pmjm (Aug 23, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> So, so tired of all these fools who know nothing about electronics components, cooling, or firmware. More sick of those repeating it for web profit. These people are only looking for clicks and refuse to accept the camera as designed. Not a shred of engineering experience among them apparently.
> 
> Every armchair fool has the solution or knows better than a dedicated team of engineers. Seems to be the world today- just having an opinion is somehow permission to deny logic or facts. Start with a baseless emotional premise and shout the loudest.



The concern we should all share is that these are not limitations in engineering, rather they're artificial limits ordered by executives. The evidence is pretty clear that the camera locks you out even when internal temperatures are in normal operating range. I would like to see this addressed by Canon with an explanation from their engineers as to why this is necessary.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Aug 23, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> I hate to say this, but this has boiled down to two groups.



I am not so sure you actually hate to say it, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.



dtaylor said:


> One group of people who are upset at the thermal limitations and are seeking understanding for a possible solution or hope of a solution from Canon.



I think you missed all the idiots that are suggesting Canon is trying to cheat them in some way. Stating emotional opinions as facts and repeating flat out false information. That is the point of first hand knowledge it allows for the insight of experience.

Things that have been stated as "FACT"

*The Camera never gets warm* - My Camera is notably warm after shooting 4K HQ for 30mins - My reality does not line up with their "FACT"
*Canon is protecting their Cinema Line *- This opinion has been tossed around forever - That was why the EOS R sucked, why the RP did not have 24p. etc etc... Opinions tossed around as facts are pointless.
*Once the Camera overheats it is useless* - WOW this has been the most frustrating, when the Camera hits a thermal limit it still has a ton of options.
*The Recovery time cannot be decreased* - https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1658635/5#15313777 25mins in the freezer and he got all the record time back.
*The Camera can only shoot 20mins of 8K* - https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/threads/69-mins-of-8k-from-a-cooled-r5.39119/
*The temp reported in the exif is all the matters* - No one know this for sure because none of use have access to the code.
*The line skipped 4K is garbage and unusable* - That garbage 4k is as good as the 4K in the EOS R and bonus no crop.



dtaylor said:


> And another group of people attacking that first group for seemingly no reason other then they want to defend Canon and "their camera."



Look at the BS above and tell me why you think people on a CANON forum are defending Canon and "their Camera". Everyday for the last 3 weeks there is some new way to show how Canon is trying to cheat us. Your own words can be perceived as an *attack* aimed at people that do not agree there is an issue...

A lot of us have been offering solutions like 4K standard 4K 1.6 Crop etc all to be told that now the only thing that is good enough is 4K HQ and 8K...



dtaylor said:


> The R5 is arguably the best 35mm sensor stills camera available right now. If you only care about stills or are perfectly fine with line skipped 4k, then you love this camera. *We get it. *



I do not think you do. If you did you would except the limitations and either say "Yeah I can live with that" or "Nope the Camera is not right for me". Supporting people tearing the Camera apart, defeating built in protections, and anything EOSHD has to say does not strike me as getting it.



dtaylor said:


> What the other side doesn't seem to get is that a lot of people want to love this camera, but find it's not a solution for them because of the severe thermal issues.



That is their issue in a nutshell they/you somehow expected Canon to not be Canon. Canon has never delivered a Camera that was the best stills camera and the best cinema camera all in one package. The closest thing they have is the 1Dx line.



dtaylor said:


> People who have been waiting for a stellar hybrid option from Canon for years now. People who want to use Canon's new RF glass. People who do not want to buy a competitor's camera.



Sounds like Canon is going to offer some great cinema cameras with the RF mount pretty soon.



dtaylor said:


> Continually attacking these people and their motives, making excuses for what is *clearly a misstep on the part of Canon engineering and Canon marketing*, and insisting everything is fine isn't doing Canon any favors. *Everything is not fine.* This absolutely affects sales and consumer perceptions. No, Canon is not *******. But it's a pretty bad screw up none-the-less.



I think you missed "In my opinion"



dtaylor said:


> Keep in mind these issues affect the R6 as well. Limit the R5's video features and it's still a great stills camera which competes with cameras (A7r4, Z7) that don't have comparable video features any way. Limit the R6's video features and it's not that competitive of a camera at its current price point. It would need to drop $500-$750 and even then you'll have a lot of people who pick something else because they want 4k video any time, any place. Not temperature warnings because they shot some stills or played with a menu.



As Gordon from Camera labs pointed out the R6 is a pretty awesome stills camera and compares well to the EOS R and RP in terms of image quality and flat out leaves them for dead in so many ways.



dtaylor said:


> As for me personally: if Canon were to fix this with a firmware update then I would likely add an R5 within the next couple months. If not...hard pass. I'll wait to see if they release the rumored 83-100mp R next year. If I have to carry a separate camera for video any way then I might as well save my money for the resolution bump in stills.



Knowing what you want and what you need are really empowering. 



dtaylor said:


> And that separate camera for video? Looks like it's not going to be Canon. I hate to sacrifice FF and turn to 3rd party adapters, but the X-T3 is stupid cheap right now and it outputs 4k 24/30/60 that's just as good as the over sampled, HQ 4k in the R5 and R6. For the price of an R6 you can outfit an X-T3 with an EF adapter, gimbal, and Ninja. I've literally stuck with FHD and Magic Lantern 2.5k waiting for Canon's real R bodies. (Not to disrespect the R and RP, but they were clearly stop gap cameras.) Those R bodies have dropped and the thermal issues are just too much to deal with for serious video use. I want usable 4k, not excuses.



Having options is always really nice. Again I am happy that you have a clear path forward. 



dtaylor said:


> First world problems I know...but I'm not going to defend Canon on this one. *They simply dropped the ball on a camera release that should have been a home run to win the series.*



I think you missed "In my opinion" again.

Thanks for the thoughtful post. Have a good day and good luck with your search for the Camera for you.


----------



## BeenThere (Aug 23, 2020)

pmjm said:


> The concern we should all share is that these are not limitations in engineering, rather they're artificial limits ordered by executives. The evidence is pretty clear that the camera locks you out even when internal temperatures are in normal operating range. I would like to see this addressed by Canon with an explanation from their engineers as to why this is necessary.


I doubt Canon will fall into an endless and pointless back and forth with a bunch of armchair pundits and designer wannabes. So, don’t hold your breath. Try to get yourself appointed to their board of directors for a full explanation. It’s their product to design. You as a potential customer can make your decisions accordingly.


----------



## khan1970 (Aug 23, 2020)

with the canon 5d mark 2 built in 2008 and magic lantern i do 3k raw and nothing explodes. they don't want to tell me now that a camera built in 2020 is not able to record 4 k 60 fps. just compare the graphics cards market thake a Geforce GTX 280 built in 2008 and compare with the soon to be released RTX 3080 ... believe me the canon R5 is trimmed to avoid endangering the cinema series. let the the 8 k away ... 4 k 60 fps and 120 fps are currently very well possible in full format but who buy than a C 500 C200 and so on. all nonsense


----------



## VictraBarca (Aug 23, 2020)

This is sad in here...


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Aug 23, 2020)

pmjm said:


> The concern we should all share is that these are not limitations in engineering, rather they're artificial limits ordered by executives. The evidence is pretty clear that the camera locks you out even when internal temperatures are in normal operating range. I would like to see this addressed by Canon with an explanation from their engineers as to why this is necessary.


The best way to be the moral compass for a company is either support them or not.

Back when I worked for EA we had a policy of no rated M games. Then the Rockstar hit it out of the park with GTA and within months our corporate moral compass was overruled by capitalism


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 23, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> *What you seem to be saying is that you are disappointed and upset with Canon for not fulfilling your their hopes and dreams with their latest Camera release.* This is further complicated by all the pseudo testing by various people attempting to understand exactly what is creating the Camera’s response to lengthy video in the high def modes (heating, timer, whatever). So, it is natural to hope that some of these limitations are artificial and may be remediated in a future firmware release. It seems unlikely to me that any firmware tweaks are ever going to make the videocentric photographers (and pundits) happy with this camera. If you are waiting for that to happen, give it some time, but it is probably not going to do it for you. It is time to move on and start working on plan B, whatever that is for you. Eventually, Canon may give you what you are looking for in a future body, but that could be years. Would you be able to wait that long? We all have to work with what is and not what we wish it to be. If you feel that you have to punish Canon for disappointing you then I guess that badmouthing on this forum is one way to do that.


Fixed in red.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 23, 2020)

masterpix said:


> Smile, you just proved the point I was making (the camra is a stills camera that enable you for short videos - not a video camera), the R5 video capabilites is for 5 min clips, not long video recording (and for that it won't overheat). If you are for long videos then buy a video camera. The same for stils, if you are for stils, don't buy a video camera that enable stils. Take for instance the new Sony A7, which is a video oriented camera (and it is very good at if as far as I know) but its stils performances are not as high as one would expect from a camera at this time.


Make up your mind.
One post you say if you want to shoot 8K, get a video camera, PERIOD.
Next post you say it ok to get a video camera to shoot 8K.

PS:


----------



## Georg Krause (Aug 24, 2020)

New findings and solutions for the R5 overheating situationand and an easy solution that works and unveils a bit about the internal construction of the R5. First we have 2 major sources of heat generation, the processor chip, where we believe an FPGA is used and the CFexpress card. When you record without the CFexpress card using an external recorder, then one source of heat generation is eliminated. Canon cannot know the exact temperature of the CFexpress card. To my knowledge the cards do not have an inbuilt temp sensor and Cannon does not sense the temperature at the casing. But, Canon must make sure that they do not overheat and damage the CFexpress cards. This is one reason I believe that they estimate the temperature by a SW algorithm. The second heat source, the processor cannot be eliminated, but may be the heat can be better disposed, for example through the metal base plate. I did this with many products I developed.
Now the real problem Canon created is the relax time after shutdown. This is also SW algorithm defined and not related to measured temperature.
Now you need to cool the camera and the card. Later we need to tell the SW not to remember the previous recording to avoid the length cool down time. Here are my findings:
You can create easy air flow through the camera. There are 3 openings that can be used:
1. The sensor compartment after removing the lens.
2. The card compartment which allows open air flow inside the electronics compartment.
3. The battery compartment, that is also not air tight and allows air flow to the electronics compartment.
All three compartments allow air flow to each other. This allows to cool the interior of the R5 very efficiently. I just need to open the card or battery slot and preferably remove the lens with the shutter open. I blew through the card slot and could feel the hot air coming out of the lens opening. After a very short time the air is not recognizable hot anymore. As long as the temperature difference between the components and the air is big, the cooling effect is high.
Solution:
Now, the real trick based on the sticky tape approach from J.Marcus. The mechanism is the following: When you switch the camera off, you only create a signal that the camera uses to stop operation. We call this an interrupt, which triggers a shutdown routine in the firmware. This routine is executed by the processor, which needs at that time still power. The shutdown routine saves all relevant configuration data at that time into a C-MOS ram chip, probably combined with the real time clock chip. A part of this savings is the overheat status calculated based on the camera use/recording time. The the camera goes to sleep mode.
When you switch it on, or close the card or battery door the CPU is woken up again. You see this when the red LED is blinking. If you use the power switch the camera reloads the values stored before.
But, if you remove power abrupt, then the shutdown routine cannot be executed. The saving of the status data does not happen, instead the data from the last regular shutdown are still in the C-MOS ram saved.
How can you remove power abrupt?
Remove the battery without deactivating the door closed switch. Some manipulation required.
Open the battery compartment is you use a grip. There is also a switch, but it is very easy to manipulate. A 1x1 mm paper piece of a business card does the job.
Open the cable connection to an external dummy battery (wall power or large external battery pack). You don't need to hack the switch if you use this, but you need an external power source. You can use this with or without grip.
Important is that you remove the power that way before the overheating appears. Cannon seems to store a timestamp in combination with an overheating bit and a thermal shutdown bit.
What I do for recording. I configure the camera first, the switch it off to save my setup, switch it on again and start recording.
Wait just before the overheating warning shows up and remove power abrupt before the overheat warning finally shows up. You need to control the time by yourself.
Cool it or not, restore your power source and you can continue recording.
See the photos how easy it is and how small the paper is when I use it with a grip.
This little effort allows you and me to use the R5 as intended. Tell Canon if you see them.
















66
2 comments
Like

Comment


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Aug 24, 2020)

Georg Krause said:


> Canon cannot know the exact temperature of the CFexpress card. To my knowledge the cards do not have an inbuilt temp sensor



They do.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 24, 2020)

Ramage said:


> I think you missed all the idiots that are suggesting Canon is trying to cheat them in some way.



And this is exactly what I was referring to in my opening paragraph. Instead of discussing the information at hand you immediately jump to 'all the idiots.' BTW, if this is an intentional limitation to protect the cinema line *then Canon has cheated their customers.* They did not announce _"Revolutionary video features (for up to 20 minutes from a cold start then you must wait 2 hours to use them again)."_



> The Camera never gets warm - My Camera is notably warm after shooting 4K HQ for 30mins - My reality does not line up with their "FACT"



Don't you mean your straw man? People have taken IR cameras to these bodies and demonstrated that record limits and recovery times are not driven only by temperatures. Which means somebody absolutely could run into a limit with a seemingly cool camera regardless of your personal experience. People have hit limits doing nothing more than browsing the menu. Does your R5 get notably warm after browsing the menu?



> Canon is protecting their Cinema Line...Opinions tossed around as facts are pointless.



No one should toss that around as a fact. But no one should attack someone for presenting it as a possibility. Right now it is one of three theories which fit the facts. (The other two being firmware bugs and real hardware limitations.)



> Once the Camera overheats it is useless - WOW this has been the most frustrating, when the Camera hits a thermal limit it still has a ton of options.



Look, we get it. You only needs stills and/or line skipped 4k. To those who need the other modes *it is useless for an extended period.*



> The Recovery time cannot be decreased - https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1658635/5#15313777 25mins in the freezer and he got all the record time back.



Other people have tried the freezer and gotten nothing. Even if the freezer reliably worked...is this what we've come to? _"Revolutionary video features (so long as you have a freezer handy)."_



> Look at the BS above and tell me why you think people on a CANON forum are defending Canon and "their Camera".



Well, for starters, instead of just ignoring threads discussing the issue or at least acknowledging there is an issue for some, people who don't have an issue with these limitations jump to statements like 'all the idiots' in reference to long time forum members.



> I do not think you do...Supporting people tearing the Camera apart, defeating built in protections, and anything EOSHD has to say does not strike me as getting it.



No, I do not think you get it. These threads are for Canon users to discuss R5 and R6 thermal issues, possible work arounds, and information which might lead to some idea of whether or not Canon can and/or will fix it. If you don't have a thermal issue, you don't need to be in a thread about thermal issues playing white knight for Canon. Canon will survive without you. In fact *if 'all the idiots' get their way and Canon mitigates these thermal issues, R5 and R6 sales will only increase.*



> That is their issue in a nutshell they/you somehow expected Canon to not be Canon. Canon has never delivered a Camera that was the best stills camera and the best cinema camera all in one package.



Except this time Canon announced they were not being Canon and were delivering the best stills and cinema hybrid in one package.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 24, 2020)

Georg Krause said:


> New findings and solutions for the R5 overheating situationand and an easy solution that works and unveils a bit about the internal construction of the R5. First we have 2 major sources of heat generation, the processor chip, where we believe an FPGA is used and the CFexpress card. When you record without the CFexpress card using an external recorder, then one source of heat generation is eliminated. Canon cannot know the exact temperature of the CFexpress card. To my knowledge the cards do not have an inbuilt temp sensor and Cannon does not sense the temperature at the casing. But, Canon must make sure that they do not overheat and damage the CFexpress cards. This is one reason I believe that they estimate the temperature by a SW algorithm. The second heat source, the processor cannot be eliminated, but may be the heat can be better disposed, for example through the metal base plate. I did this with many products I developed.
> Now the real problem Canon created is the relax time after shutdown. This is also SW algorithm defined and not related to measured temperature.
> Now you need to cool the camera and the card. Later we need to tell the SW not to remember the previous recording to avoid the length cool down time. Here are my findings:
> You can create easy air flow through the camera. There are 3 openings that can be used:
> ...


The following advice is simply a garbage: "... I just need to open the card or battery slot and preferably *remove the lens with the shutter open*. "


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Aug 24, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Right now it is one of three theories which fit the facts.


There's only few actual facts used in all these boring endless talks. Random YouTube videos are not facts, although some of them have verifiable statements.

Have you tried to cool your R5 down in a fridge yourself?


----------



## YuengLinger (Aug 24, 2020)

I'm certainly in favor of people using THEIR R5's which they bought with THEIR money to experiment. I don't think those who are doing the experimenting are the same as those who just throw fuel on the PR fire and claim Canon is cheating people, etc. I think somebody who does troubleshooting or vivisection or any kind of fiddling around with their cameras aren't malevolent idiots trying to make Canon look bad or customers feel bad.

I don't think we have seen--or ever will!-- any kind of evidence of some laughably absurd scheme to "protect" the Cine line of video cameras. I'm not getting a good impression of that EOSHD guy at all for pushing a theory that would mean Canon's successful executives are willing to destroy the companies reputation this way.

In my opinion, Canon could do themselves and concerned customers a service by addressing this issue in a press conference--or at least a statement. Personally, I think some of the reported cool-down times are shocking, and they make me want to know what is actually happening inside a nearly $4000 USD camera I plan to buy next year, and the $2500 USD R6 I am planning to buy this year. If I learn that the issue has been overly protective timers (maybe set this way for the initial release, first firmware version, just to be extra safe), I'll feel much better about the engineering and build of these bodies.


----------



## visionrouge.net (Aug 24, 2020)

Well, It shows how wrong the overheating warning is.
What about 1 hour of 8K?
Done...





This is my Canon EOS R5 recording 8K video 50 minutes straight until empty battery – video evidence – EOSHD.com – Filmmaking Gear and Camera Reviews







www.eoshd.com








Without this little trick, the camera was "overheating" after taking picture every minute for an hour...


----------



## Respinder (Aug 24, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> I give credit when due even on the interwebs, and all I have seen so far are whiners and armchair engineers making idle speculation or outright controversy out of nothing. Speculation taken too far makes people fools. No offense, but IT doesn't make you an expert in the Canon R5 thermals. Neither do people pointing a FLIR at the R5 suddenly know all about the situation. None of these tests equate to die temperatures for ASICs and other internals, and you have no idea what temperature threshold is the protection limit for these parts. Some parts really don't like to be hot over their lifetime and so for reliability are kept at lower temperatures.
> 
> I have specific experience with high speed circuit design and thermal management and will leave it at that, but I would never go around speculating I understand a design unless I did the thermal analysis or pulled out schematics or looked at the code for ASICs, FPGAs or uControllers myself. To pretend I know, even with my experience, is a lie unless I have done adequate testing and reverse engineering. On a product like this, insanely compact and complicated, that isn't going to happen from some youtube test. To sit around doing inane amateur tests and then to make biased assumptions about artificial timers and blah blah blah is people stoking their ego, NOT honest intellectual discourse. Sometimes saying "I don't know" is the best course, but too many people don't like the feeling of admitting it, even when the subject matter is way out of their area of knowledge.
> 
> ...


You know for every time someone has called out Canon for their fishyness, there is a Canon apologist who seems to believe that everything is working as normal and intended. What you don’t realize are two things: One, apologists are the reason why Canon continues to operate the way they do, and two, the percentage of apologists has really gone down recently.
I myself was taken aback by the tabloid journalism of Andrew Reid (EOSHD) and continued belief that the overheating was part of the “cripple hammer” conspiracy. But now the tests pretty much speak for themselves, and these tests involve real people testing on the actual camera, so it’s not just “armchair quarterbacks” anymore.
My point is - there is a real issue here, when folks like Andrew can record up to 50min of 8K footage, yet the camera doesn’t let you do this natively.
If Canon had come out and admitted that there are issues and they are working on it, even that would have been a better way to handle this. But their continued silence is really allowing others to control the narrative. From a marketing standpoint, this has got to be the worst camera product launch in history - far worse than the Nikon Z6/Z7. What was Canon thinking, and why do they remain silent? If you want to continue to be an apologist, you’re not helping and Canon will just continue to push this crap and lose market share.


----------



## Chris Charles (Aug 24, 2020)

We now have the disaster of a $5000 camera that overheats after 20 mins of 8K video recording.

Don’t forget that Canon is a serial offender: This is just another of Canon’s appalling design mistakes that they have never apologized for or rectified:

* First they gave us ISO 102400 but it had more ‘noise’ than ISO 200;

* Then they gave us the 5Ds twins with 50 Mp that made all my shots shaky;

* Then they gave us the $12000 Super Telephotos that turned out to be softer at f32 than they were at f5.6.

Now I am hearing rumors that the R5 weather sealing is not reliable beyond 3m water depth. Really? Do you take us for fools Canon?


----------



## YuengLinger (Aug 24, 2020)

visionrouge.net said:


> Well, It shows how wrong the overheating warning is.
> What about 1 hour of 8K?
> Done...
> 
> ...


If this guy wouldn't make wild accusations about Canon's motives, we could take him more seriously. His raving, unfortunately, creates way too much noise to receive his signal.


----------



## Otara (Aug 24, 2020)

Its just me, but perhaps theres a difference between a camera working for 50 minutes and a camera lasting more than 6 months.

I find myself being torn between hoping the overheating is sometihng that can be overcome and wanting to see a post by him saying 'so turns out my camera doesnt work any more, canon haxxors'.


----------



## masterpix (Aug 24, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Make up your mind.
> One post you say if you want to shoot 8K, get a video camera, PERIOD.
> Next post you say it ok to get a video camera to shoot 8K.
> 
> PS:


In both I said teh same: if you want video - buy a video camera, if you want stills buy stills, you can't have both ways in the same body, one way or the other you will comremize one of them. The stills can give you limited video and the video can give you limited stills. You can't complain that a video gives you lesser stills or that a stills gives you lesser video.


----------



## masterpix (Aug 24, 2020)

Respinder said:


> You know for every time someone has called out Canon for their fishyness, there is a Canon apologist who seems to believe that everything is working as normal and intended. What you don’t realize are two things: One, apologists are the reason why Canon continues to operate the way they do, and two, the percentage of apologists has really gone down recently.
> I myself was taken aback by the tabloid journalism of Andrew Reid (EOSHD) and continued belief that the overheating was part of the “cripple hammer” conspiracy. But now the tests pretty much speak for themselves, and these tests involve real people testing on the actual camera, so it’s not just “armchair quarterbacks” anymore.
> My point is - there is a real issue here, when folks like Andrew can record up to 50min of 8K footage, yet the camera doesn’t let you do this natively.
> If Canon had come out and admitted that there are issues and they are working on it, even that would have been a better way to handle this. But their continued silence is really allowing others to control the narrative. From a marketing standpoint, this has got to be the worst camera product launch in history - far worse than the Nikon Z6/Z7. What was Canon thinking, and why do they remain silent? If you want to continue to be an apologist, you’re not helping and Canon will just continue to push this crap and lose market share.


The R5 is first a stills camera, and it has the best AF system at present. The whole discussion about the video is irrelevant to those looking for stills camera that does more than any of the others do at this point.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 24, 2020)

masterpix said:


> In both I said teh same: if you want video - buy a video camera, if you want stills buy stills, you can't have both ways in the same body, one way or the other you will comremize one of them. The stills can give you limited video and the video can give you limited stills. You can't complain that a video gives you lesser stills or that a stills gives you lesser video.


Okey, dokey....blah hah ha....lol


----------



## Greywind (Aug 24, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> If this guy wouldn't make wild accusations about Canon's motives, we could take him more seriously. His raving, unfortunately, creates way too much noise to receive his signal.


There are some insightful and logical assumptions backed up by good experiments on FredMiranda at the moment. It seems that the overheating is not purely timer control.
But I still think there overheating mechanism is still too crude/overprotective/fishy.


----------



## Greywind (Aug 24, 2020)

masterpix said:


> In both I said teh same: if you want video - buy a video camera, if you want stills buy stills, you can't have both ways in the same body, one way or the other you will comremize one of them. The stills can give you limited video and the video can give you limited stills. You can't complain that a video gives you lesser stills or that a stills gives you lesser video.


The world has changed, just you and some does not notice that. It's quite lucky that most of the manufacturers does not disagree with you. 
There are a lot of cameras could do well both still and videos. There are a great number of proffessionals do both photos and videos. 
If you don't want to use your camera for video, it's fine, totally fine. Just don't tell others to do this and that.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 24, 2020)

Greywind said:


> There are some insightful and logical assumptions backed up by good experiments on FredMiranda at the moment. It seems that the overheating is not purely timer control.
> But I still think there overheating mechanism is still too crude/overprotective/fishy.



Fishy, fawh shawrrrr


----------



## dcm (Aug 24, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> If this guy wouldn't make wild accusations about Canon's motives, we could take him more seriously. His raving, unfortunately, creates way too much noise to receive his signal.



And he wonders why they won’t talk to him anymore. Worked in high tech R&D for 37 years before moving to academia. During the last 10 years I worked in R&D in the CTO office and Corporate Strategy. I’ve watched people like this similarly burn any/all of the goodwill they’ve earned with a large company. Lawyers step in and we could never talk with them again.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 24, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> I'm certainly in favor of people using THEIR R5's which they bought with THEIR money to experiment. I don't think those who are doing the experimenting are the same as those who just throw fuel on the PR fire and claim Canon is cheating people, etc. I think somebody who does troubleshooting or vivisection or any kind of fiddling around with their cameras aren't malevolent idiots trying to make Canon look bad or customers feel bad.
> 
> I don't think we have seen--or ever will!-- any kind of evidence of some laughably absurd scheme to "protect" the Cine line of video cameras. I'm not getting a good impression of that EOSHD guy at all for pushing a theory that would mean Canon's successful executives are willing to destroy the companies reputation this way.
> 
> In my opinion, Canon could do themselves and concerned customers a service by addressing this issue in a press conference--or at least a statement. Personally, I think some of the reported cool-down times are shocking, and they make me want to know what is actually happening inside a nearly $4000 USD camera I plan to buy next year, *and the $2500 USD R6 I am planning to buy this year. If I learn that the issue has been overly protective timers (maybe set this way for the initial release, first firmware version, just to be extra safe), I'll feel much better about the engineering and build of these bodies.*



I've not seen any (or hardly any) testing on the R6 overheating cool down (besides what Canon published). I think only a little on how an external Atomos recorder helps to increase time, which I think was not as helpful as with the R5. Hopefully once they become available people will be able to report on their times.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 24, 2020)

dcm said:


> And he wonders why they won’t talk to him anymore. Worked in high tech R&D for 37 years before moving to academia. During the last 10 years I worked in R&D in the CTO office and Corporate Strategy. I’ve watched people like this similarly burn any/all of the goodwill they’ve earned with a large company. Lawyers step in and we could never talk with them again.



I'd like to know more about the heating issues and what if anything can and will be done about it. And if Canon is handicapping the recording time due to heat and/or a timer or if it is all legit. But Andrew is being quite a cry baby, making multiple demands that are very unreasonable and quite laughable. acts like a 10 year old baby. And his little disciples can be just as bad.


----------



## -pekr- (Aug 24, 2020)

Ramage said:


> I am not so sure you actually hate to say it, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ramage, all those users posting at least some findings did more work to the general public, than your scientifically accurate guess about your camera getting kind of warm in 4K HQ 

I really wonder if you guys can read between the lines? I mean - the main reasoning for all that fuss? It is not the recording times. It is about how Canon propagated the camera from the get go and what they somehow forgot to tell us. If those recording times could be so precisely defined (and confirmed by testers), so should be precise the recovery cool-down times and the limits after shooting still should be covered too.

Reading from the Canon announcement re heat issues, it seems like a marketing propaganda continues:

8K - _"productions where a full-frame mirrorless can be utilized to get unique angles alongside a main camera or additional cropping for 4K productions"_
4K 60p - _"high-frame rate high resolution productions and independent films"_
Productions ... independent films .... sounds like being ready for the next Hollywood flick, right?

*So - where precisely Canon tells you, that you might be zeroed out on recording times by taking few still?* What can be found in manual (page 376) is this - _"[red icon] may be displayed if repeated movie recording or extended use of Live Viewdisplay increases the camera’s internal temperature ". _

And there is also the footer note below the table of recovery times: _" If the camera is in LV mode standby before shooting or the ambient temperature is high, the shooting time may be shorter."_

But yes, shorter migh mean even zero and for some luminaries here it is probably perfectly OK. LOL


----------



## visionrouge.net (Aug 24, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> His raving, unfortunately, creates way too much noise to receive his signal.


Completely agree on that.
Unfortunately, for once; he have a good point hat have been backed up by others users.

*The overheat lock-down is artificial and not based on actual temperatures reading for most of the scenarios.*

Just to make my point easy to understand:
There are 2 possible reasons for that:
-Avoiding this camera to compete with more expensive models.
-Doing a fast/cheap software development where you do not read temperature sensor, but just base all on time the camera is recording video.

I will remove the possibility of the absence of temperature sensors as the ( MT53D512M32D2DS-053 ) which is the 2Go Ram have internal sensors, as well as most of the component on this board. Another example is the one just on top of the card reader:
DA9213 Multiphase 20A Output Current -40 to +85 ºC temperature range and have temperature monitoring flag 125 °C Waring 140 °C Critical.

Yes, any electronic component have a temperature where it should be working fine for ages. And yes, there are real overheating situation where the camera should be turned off.
But having a logo telling you that the camera is too hot that can be turned off by removing the battery is not right.

That means the temperature is not checked at boot up, neither during the 15 following recording minutes in 8K? How this is supposed to be acceptable? How this is safe for my equipment? 
Yes, this is far for being rational in an engineering point of view.


----------



## dcm (Aug 24, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> I'd like to know more about the heating issues and what if anything can and will be done about it. And if Canon is handicapping the recording time due to heat and/or a timer or if it is all legit. But Andrew is being quite a cry baby, making multiple demands that are very unreasonable and quite laughable. acts like a 10 year old baby. And his little disciples can be just as bad.



Rest assured that Canon is looking into it. We will never know the whole internal story (technical or otherwise). Any detailed explanation would be misused and abused by the same people. Canon may offer some improvement in a firmware upgrade, but only after it has been thoroughly tested. They don’t want to brick everyone’s camera or create a future failure problem from thermal issues. 

They will also take what they learned in these bodies and apply it to future bodies. No design is ever perfect. You learn throughout development, but you can’t redesign everything at the last minute. They were clearly aware of thermal issues and will continue to learn more. 

In all my engineering experience, we always tried to give the customer the most we could reliably provide - competition demanded it. We did design a range of products at different price points for customers to maximize our market share. There were often constraints we couldn’t overcome (like thermal), but we didn’t cripple products. I think the other engineers on this forum would agree. I doubt Canon is any different and all the nefarious stuff is ludicrous.

FWIW, my 550D/T2i overheated when I was shooting HD 1080p video of intramural softball games ten years ago. I had to learn how to use it more effectively to minimize the occurrence, like turning it off after the third out during the side change. I look forward to shooting with the R series, both photo and video.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 24, 2020)

Greywind said:


> The world has changed, just you and some does not notice that. It's quite lucky that most of the manufacturers does not disagree with you.
> There are a lot of cameras could do well both still and videos. There are a great number of proffessionals do both photos and videos.
> If you don't want to use your camera for video, it's fine, totally fine. Just don't tell others to do this and that.



This one does both stills and video very well. Unless you _insist_ that the video be in 8K, or downsampled 8K (4KHQ) or (whatever the third overheat mode is, I've forgotten). 

I find it curious that people are judging this camera poorly because it's limited in modes that other cameras don't have at all; then that other camera is pointed to as an example of a camera that does video well.

The 8 K is something that so far, no other camera in this class can do _at all_. So to claim that some other camera can do video well even though it ALWAYS has a zero minute limit in 8K, but this one doesn't do video well because it usually has 8K limitation _greater than zero_, is quite inconsistent. Now I don't know enough about other brands to compare the other video modes, but so far as I know the 1080p works well, and the 4K line skipping works quite well, too, _and they are not cropped_ (which was the last big complaint).


----------



## mb66energy (Aug 24, 2020)

dilbert said:


> Does doing this void your warranty if the camera sustains damage due to overheating?


Maybe a lawyer will find some way ... but:
A 4500 EUR camera lacking some temperature sensors of 0,1 EUR each + 2 EUR for implementation of these is a joke in 2020 - or better: A camera lacking a good usage of the existing temperature sensors ...

Just my 8 year old 600D and EOS M have temperature sensors which are read out by Magic Lantern and the values are displayed - showing consistent behavior (duration of use, external temperatures, use of a small fan (which doesn't help too much)).


----------



## wockawocka (Aug 24, 2020)

dcm said:


> Rest assured that Canon is looking into it. We will never know the whole internal story (technical or otherwise).



Unless some hackers steal 10tb of internal correspondance and start releasing it.


----------



## masterpix (Aug 24, 2020)

Greywind said:


> There are some insightful and logical assumptions backed up by good experiments on FredMiranda at the moment. It seems that the overheating is not purely timer control.
> But I still think there overheating mechanism is still too crude/overprotective/fishy.



Give me the 5D mark 5! ONLY STILLS, with the R5/1DX3 eye/object tracking...


----------



## jeffa4444 (Aug 24, 2020)

masterpix said:


> Give me the 5D mark 5! ONLY STILLS, with the R5/1DX3 eye/object tracking...



Im with you all the way. Stills shooters that dont shoot video are being 'drowned" by the videographers and the relentless droning on about overheating that's reached fever pitch on Youtube.

Make an R3 that has everything the R5 has for stills and ditch the video parts all together. Hopefully that way battery life can also be extended.


----------



## koenkooi (Aug 24, 2020)

jeffa4444 said:


> Im with you all the way. Stills shooters that dont shoot video are being 'drowned" by the videographers and the relentless droning on about overheating that's reached fever pitch on Youtube.
> 
> Make an R3 that has everything the R5 has for stills and ditch the video parts all together. Hopefully that way battery life can also be extended.



How are you going to take pictures without an EVF? Framing rectangle in the hot shoe?


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 24, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> because it can do it.
> 
> Because the processing power needed to do that creates heat Canon engineers figured might make the camera less reliable over time.
> 
> ...


Nope, I don't have a 8K TV but as I mentioned earlier, 8K gives you flexibility just like larger MP gives you flexibility, so I am sorry I do not buy into that argument that I have to have an 8K TV to record in 8K..

I'm sorry you have lost me a little on your other points. I am not hacking the camera, I am a little unhappy that I sometimes get no high bitrate video, but yes as I am predominantly a stills shooter, I will keep the R5 for that alone. I too want reliability, and above all I want stills reliability over video.

I was responding to the comment, if I want 8K buy a video device designed to record 8k for extended periods. Yes, if I was doing serious video work, that would be good advice. I'm not. I just want to be able to take the best video I can, just like I want to be able to take the best stills I can. And if those modes are not available due to heat, then yes, I have to chose lower res modes. But sure I would like to have my cake and eat it - Canon offered it. And initially with time restrictions. I am fine with them. But like anyone similar to me in requirements are finding that we need to adjust some of our ways of working to try and conserve heat. So for instance, I now regularly power the camera off, even if I am not going to use it for say 5 to 10 mins.

And no, just in case it is suggested by anyone, an Atomos is not a suitable device for me, unless I was doing serious video work.


----------



## drama (Aug 24, 2020)

Remember when the 5D III came out, and there was light leak into the sensor from the top screen LCD illuminator? And the fix was some black tape inside the housing? Seems like first iterations of Canon's big releases always have a common-sense flaw that they have to address. For what it's worth, I am fully expecting a firmware update to address the overheating tolerance issue.


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 24, 2020)

masterpix said:


> Smile, you just proved the point I was making (the camra is a stills camera that enable you for short videos - not a video camera), the R5 video capabilites is for 5 min clips, not long video recording (and for that it won't overheat). If you are for long videos then buy a video camera. The same for stils, if you are for stils, don't buy a video camera that enable stils. Take for instance the new Sony A7, which is a video oriented camera (and it is very good at if as far as I know) but its stils performances are not as high as one would expect from a camera at this time.


I don't disagree in terms of what the R5 is aimed at. But yes, it does overheat if you use it a lot in stills. Now I know (roughly) those limits, I am now working / changing my habits to try and conserve it more, so I can still shoot video clips in the best resolution possible (that in itself is a trade off).

So you can now go back and change your earlier post to "If you want to shoot 8K as a videographer, or for extended periods" then buy the appropriate device for the job"


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 24, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Question: Which upsets video-first customers more, the time limit imposed by overheating, or the aggressively long cool down times?
> 
> If it's the cool-down times, and they are unnecessarily long, overly cautious, surely that is something Canon could fix with a firmware update. (BUT Canon would have to convince customers that the new times won't shorten the life of the camera or harm it in other ways.)


I'm not a videographer, but the cool down times are a bigger "impact". If I could cool it down in 15 mins, even with a fan (have tried, no difference - body is very good to keep the cool out also), then that would be a significant improvement.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Aug 24, 2020)

drama said:


> Remember when the 5D III came out, and there was light leak into the sensor from the top screen LCD illuminator? And the fix was some black tape inside the housing? Seems like first iterations of Canon's big releases always have a common-sense flaw that they have to address.



5DMkIII can hardly be called a 'first iteration'.


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 24, 2020)

masterpix said:


> I think it is a matter of expecting something to be more than what it is. take the EOD 6D for example, people were upset with it not to be as versitile as the 5D when the 6D was never intended to be the 5D. The R5/R6 are stills cameras that allows short video clips. It is not a video camera taht allows stills shooting. It is therfore a compermize on the video performances (the over-heating issue). As for the AF, eye tracking and sensor size, those are superb.
> 
> For myself, if the R5 had a OVF (and it seems that then it will be 5Dmark5), than I would brake my savings and get one, for I only shoot stills, and having a "mechanical" 16fps and eye/body tracking... that wold make this picture a lot better than what I got from my 7D.


Don't hire one for a weekend..... honestly, for your savings sake


----------



## TMHKR (Aug 24, 2020)

Matt Granger has a more "elegant" solution, without opening the camera and removing the internal battery:


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> R5 does not have "the best AF system at presetn" it has a good AF system on par with sony a7rIV and a9II dont get it twist*ed. only difference sony a7RIV can shoot video without overheating......*



That statement is a bit skewed when forgetting the facts between each camera. The R5 matches and still beats the A7R IV's video specs in the modes that do not overheat.

*A7R IV*
Oversampled 4K full frame: No
*Lineskipping/pixel bin full frame 4K: Yes, limited to 8 bit, no overheating

R5*
Oversample 4K full frame: Yes, with overheating limitation 
*Lineskipping/pixel bin full frame 4K: Yes, up to 10 bit, no overheating*


----------



## masterpix (Aug 24, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> How are you going to take pictures without an EVF? Framing rectangle in the hot shoe?


He didn't say "dick the EVF" he said "dick the video part". The EVF is not "video part".


----------



## koenkooi (Aug 24, 2020)

masterpix said:


> He didn't say "dick the EVF" he said "dick the video part". The EVF is not "video part".



It's showing moving pictures using a screen, that's video isn't it?


----------



## masterpix (Aug 24, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> It's showing moving pictures using a screen, that's video isn't it?


No, it is shooting stills images using a view finder that happens to be electronic. And I would say that I still prefer the optical one.


----------



## Film2.0 (Aug 24, 2020)

Petition demands Canon fix the R5 within the 30-day returns period https://www.change.org/canonR5fix


----------



## TMHKR (Aug 24, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> How are you going to take pictures without an EVF?


I sincerely hope this was sarcasm


----------



## Respinder (Aug 24, 2020)

masterpix said:


> The R5 is first a stills camera, and it has the best AF system at present. The whole discussion about the video is irrelevant to those looking for stills camera that does more than any of the others do at this point.


Sure but at the moment the R5 isn’t really being reviewed as a stills camera. Canon hasn’t gotten in front of the messaging to say this either. With the lack of messaging or narrative by Canon, the media (YouTubers, websites, etc) has taken over with most coverage being devoted on testing of video capabilities as opposed to camera capabilities. Canon needs to come out with a message ASAP.


----------



## nchoh (Aug 24, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Might Canon be depending on timers instead of thermometers because they couldn't make thermometers work reliably within the body? If they found that the temperatures could not be accurately measured, they just went with timers based on scenarios they experimented with during design and testing?



Given that the body is sealed and that the heat generated can be easily found out by measurement, using a timer would be an easy solution for determining the shut down time.


----------



## scyrene (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> Dude you are missing the point... R5 was supposedly a camera with "pro video features" well, if that is the case why are those features so limited? Canon is selling this camera as a jack of all trades and now we find out that the heat limits on that camera are not determined by the thermostat but by a timer? I do agree, people should not be doing this at home as it might indeed be dangerous, despite the fact that camera does have an actual thermostat with actual overheating protection, so there are 2 real theories as to what is going on, eather Canon is playing it safe and that is the safest way to use the camera for its longevity OR it is true that canon does not want you to have those features unless you dump money on the video camera... well im sorry but the competition offeres the same packedge without overheating, so why should i pick Canon then?



1) It does both video and stills very well - it's just _*some high spec video modes*_ that are (perhaps excessively) limited, so it's still a jack of all trades (remember the second line of that phrase? 'Master of none' - a jack of all trades isn't the best for any of the things it does, although in the R5's case it could be said to be the best stills camera on the market at present, though that's always pretty subjective).
2) No competitor offers uncompromised high spec video whilst also giving you the same level of stills - i.e. *all cameras are compromised* (just in different ways).

If the competition is offering you better options for your needs, go for it! Why should anyone here talk you into buying Canon if you don't want to? (But the reverse is true).


----------



## tarjei99 (Aug 24, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Defeating the overheating limit is not a solution, it is bypassing design limits. Only the fool crowd who refuses to understand even the basics of physics or engineering thinks everything in the world can be solved with a couple lines of software or that they are some victim being cheated even if they don't own this product. They think infinite capability is possible and owed to them in a tiny camera for less. Why aren't these idiots bashing gopro or anyone else for their limitations? Once people latch on to a trend or emotion they never let logic in.




It could be interesting when they start to complain about their R5 failing and Canon refusing to repair them under warranty because of the heat damage.


----------



## tarjei99 (Aug 24, 2020)

nchoh said:


> Given that the body is sealed and that the heat generated can be easily found out by measurement, using a timer would be an easy solution for determining the shut down time.




A FredMiranda user reported that he shortende the cooldown period to 25 minutes by putting the camera minus battery and memory card in his freezer. That should indicate that Canon uses thermometers to determine how long the cooldown period should be.


----------



## scyrene (Aug 24, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> I hate to say this, but this has boiled down to two groups. One group of people who are upset at the thermal limitations and are seeking understanding for a possible solution or hope of a solution from Canon. And another group of people attacking that first group for seemingly no reason other then they want to defend Canon and "their camera."



Once again I'm pretty surprised by your approach on this issue, given your past objectivity. To characterise (all?) those countering the criticism as having 'no reason other than to want to defend Canon' is demonstrably wrong, wilfully misleading, and startlingly unconstructive. A lot of people have merely been saying, there's no such thing as a free lunch, the limitations are unlikely to be a conspiracy (as some critics have suggested), they were advertised from the start (at least before people got their hands on the camera, and more openly than competitors have been on overheating, which is hardly a Canon-specific issue), and that workarounds for some of them are possible. Indeed to even state there are just two groups is to ignore a lot of nuance on the subject. I'm afraid you're letting your personal disappointment in the R5 colour your judgment, and that's a shame.


----------



## stevelee (Aug 24, 2020)

Shooting time-lapse video for five hours works OK:

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2020/08/24/canon-eos-r5-timelapse/


----------



## koenkooi (Aug 24, 2020)

tarjei99 said:


> A FredMiranda user reported that he shortende the cooldown period to 25 minutes by putting the camera minus battery and memory card in his freezer. That should indicate that Canon uses thermometers to determine how long the cooldown period should be.



The estimate after a battery pull going to 5 minutes instead of the 20 minutes that the "it's just a simple timer" theory would predict should be enough proof that the algo takes temperature as an input as well.


----------



## nchoh (Aug 24, 2020)

DBounce said:


> Actual cool down time is two minutes. In use the camera never exceeds 64C, which is well within the safety limits of the camera. ...



Interestingly, when the reports first came out, people were complaining that the CFE card was hot after a few minutes of use, now the argument is that is is not hot at all.



> Worst still, in reality it only takes 2 minutes for the camera to cool back down to 30C. Literally, just 2 minutes... yet Canon disable these features for 2/hrs plus.
> This is clearly deliberate and unfair to customers. The extremely long lockout times are mentioned nowhere in the R5 manual. There is no mention of this on the official website. To this day Canon have not spoken to this matter.



Actual cool down time is 2 minutes? The camera is sealed and the body is magnesium ally and doesn't dissipate the heat that quickly, so where did the heat go to?


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 24, 2020)

Respinder said:


> Sure but at the moment the R5 isn’t really being reviewed as a stills camera. Canon hasn’t gotten in front of the messaging to say this either. With the lack of messaging or narrative by Canon, the media (YouTubers, websites, etc) has taken over with most coverage being devoted on testing of video capabilities as opposed to camera capabilities. Canon needs to come out with a message ASAP.


No there are a decent number of stills orientated reviews out there now and without exception every single one praises the R5 as a major leap in stills performance by Canon.


----------



## DBounce (Aug 24, 2020)

nchoh said:


> Interestingly, when the reports first came out, people were complaining that the CFE card was hot after a few minutes of use, now the argument is that is is not hot at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Actual cool down time is 2 minutes? The camera is sealed and the body is magnesium ally and doesn't dissipate the heat that quickly, so where did the heat go to?


Seems magnesium is not a great insulator. The temp readings come from the internal sensors.


----------



## BeenThere (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> My man... All i want is a perfect camera, and R5 can be that perfect camera, all i want is for Canon to fix it. Im just a dude who travels and takes photos and videos of my travels, right now i have to carry 2 boddies to achive everyting i want, but im waiting for the perfect camera that can do both. Like i dont understand why everyone is defending R5? why is everyone so keen on defending canon? If we all collectively complain enough MAYBE, just MAYBE this overheating will be solved, we all know now its a timer, we all know now that its software based, so maybe instead of defending canon and telling me to get a competitor, i already got a competitor i shoot on sony ATM, but its not perfect, a7r4 is inferior in video but superior in photos and a7s3 is superior in video but inferior in photos, i dont want 2 boddies i want 1 perfect camera, if canon just fixed the overheating it will be it, it will be THE perfect camera. so i will complain until it is  and i dont understand why people defending a brand, its just a logo dude, its not a team, i shoot any camera that is good, today its sony and canon, tomorow it will be nikkon, but one day i will get the perfect camera, and i hope that R5 is that camera  it looks great, it feels great, it smells great, it just needs to recored the god damn 4k 60p unlimited and i will call it my forever camera


I’m lobbying for GM to fix my Chevy so that it will perform like a Porsche. Still waiting.


----------



## koenkooi (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> that is BS, show me that test...... if this test is true then it beats all these timer theories, but i have not seeen said test







__





R5 artificial time limit


https://www.eoshd.com/news/chinese-user-modifies-canon-eos-r5-to-improve-heat-management-but-finds-artificial-firmware-time-limit/Title edited to r...



www.fredmiranda.com


----------



## nchoh (Aug 24, 2020)

nchoh said:


> Actual cool down time is 2 minutes? The camera is sealed and the body is magnesium ally and doesn't dissipate the heat that quickly, so where did the heat go to?





aljerj said:


> Dude all pro cameras made out of magnesium alloy, its not a thermos, 3 hours is ridiculous, but even say it isnt' it doesn't even work in the FRIDGE man, and 3 hours is rediculous, you can put a peace of metal in a fire and get it red hot, after 3 hours it will be room temperature, its not realistic, and according to the tests, it cools down to cool 40C within few minutes (tests done with thermal camera) i mean someting is not right here, something is not right 100%



A cool down time of 2 minutes? really? Even if it is not thermos, my ceramic cup takes longer than 2 minutes to cool down and it's not even sealed nor is it red hot metal, just steeped tea.

But the other point is; the amount of heat generated in a stills camera is much less than a video camera. Just have a look at some of the cinema cameras out there from Canon and Sony. They are much larger than stills cameras for a reason.


----------



## Kit. (Aug 24, 2020)

pmjm said:


> The concern we should all share is that these are not limitations in engineering,


Why should I share it?

What kind of expertise in thermal engineering do you have to make such a claim?

Do you realize that temperature is pretty capable of degrading electronics _over time_, and timers may be necessary to protect the camera aginst such degradation during its projected lifetime?


----------



## Kit. (Aug 24, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> I hate to say this, but this has boiled down to two groups. One group of people who are upset at the thermal limitations and are seeking understanding for a possible solution or hope of a solution from Canon.


Even this "one" is not a single group. There are wishful thinkers, there are trolls, and there are people genuinely trying to understand.

Unfortunately, the third one of these is very far from being numerous.


----------



## Kit. (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> only that we measure the projected lifetime of cameras in shutter counts and minutes recorded not in time in hand, in other words, the longevity of the camera only maters in relation to the time its been used.


Who are those "we"?

And what is the "shutter count" for an electronic shutter?


----------



## scyrene (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> All i want ist 4k 24 and 4k60. BUt i would prefer if canon gave me oversampled 4k and 8k as a viable option. otherwise this camera is inferior to a7RIV by every measure



You started by sounding fairly reasonable but this is a stretch.



aljerj said:


> My man... All i want is a perfect camera, and R5 can be that perfect camera, all i want is for Canon to fix it. Im just a dude who travels and takes photos and videos of my travels, right now i have to carry 2 boddies to achive everyting i want, but im waiting for the perfect camera that can do both. Like i dont understand why everyone is defending R5? why is everyone so keen on defending canon? If we all collectively complain enough MAYBE, just MAYBE this overheating will be solved, we all know now its a timer, we all know now that its software based, so maybe instead of defending canon and telling me to get a competitor, i already got a competitor i shoot on sony ATM, but its not perfect, a7r4 is inferior in video but superior in photos and a7s3 is superior in video but inferior in photos, i dont want 2 boddies i want 1 perfect camera, if canon just fixed the overheating it will be it, it will be THE perfect camera. so i will complain until it is  and i dont understand why people defending a brand, its just a logo dude, its not a team, i shoot any camera that is good, today its sony and canon, tomorow it will be nikkon, but one day i will get the perfect camera, and i hope that R5 is that camera  it looks great, it feels great, it smells great, it just needs to recored the god damn 4k 60p unlimited and i will call it my forever camera



If you're waiting for a 'perfect camera' then you're in for a long wait. No such product exists, has ever existed, or will ever exist.

I'm not defending anything. I'm countering points that are unfair or misleading. Why does everything have to be boiled down to 'attack' or 'defence'?

You say it's just about a tool for a job, but then characterise every point you disagree with as 'defending a brand'. You can add as many smiley faces as you like, it doesn't make what you're saying any less self-contradictory or confused


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Aug 24, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> And this is exactly what I was referring to in my opening paragraph. Instead of discussing the information at hand you immediately jump to 'all the idiots.' BTW, if this is an intentional limitation to protect the cinema line *then Canon has cheated their customers.* They did not announce _"Revolutionary video features (for up to 20 minutes from a cold start then you must wait 2 hours to use them again)."_



Hmm, all the accounts created with a single post that have shown up on CR just to bash on the R5 qualifies them as ID 10 T's to me. BTW if there is an intentional limitation that is protecting the Camera then *Canon has protected their customers. *Real shame that yours and others first thought is everyone is out to cheat them.

Wonder why Canon is only showing their best side in advertising they are paying for??? Shameful marketing focusing the narrative on only what they want...

_mar·ket·ing

"the action or business of promoting and selling products or services, including market research and advertising."_



dtaylor said:


> Don't you mean your straw man? People have taken IR cameras to these bodies and* demonstrated that record limits and recovery times are not driven only by temperatures.* Which means somebody absolutely could run into a limit with a seemingly cool camera regardless of your personal experience. People have hit limits doing nothing more than browsing the menu. Does your R5 get notably warm after browsing the menu?



A IR Camera can demonstrate temperature for sure. FACT√. The rest of your statement is just a WAG. You see an IR Camera cannot read the code running in the Camera it can only show you a single data point. That you make the leap to this as proof that there is something underhanded going on is more a reflection of you.

Yep my Camera gets warm when current is applied, Canon has not figured out how to break the laws of physics.



dtaylor said:


> No one should toss that around as a fact. But no one should attack someone for presenting it as a possibility. Right now it is one of three theories which fit the facts. (The other two being firmware bugs and real hardware limitations.)



I agree no one should be tossing it around as fact, yet here we are everyday someone does just that so I call them ID 10 T's...



dtaylor said:


> Look, we get it. You only needs stills and/or line skipped 4k. To those who need the other modes *it is useless for an extended period.*



I do not think you get it at all... To those that NEED the other modes what the ****** were they using 3 weeks ago for 8K, 4K120, 4K HQ, or even 4K60? Did those solutions disappear once the R5 was released or did they never really NEED anything? I get wanting these things but want and need are really very different things.



dtaylor said:


> Other people have tried the freezer and gotten nothing. Even if the freezer reliably worked...is this what we've come to? _"Revolutionary video features (so long as you have a freezer handy)."_



Nope, I think putting a $6k (CDN) in the freezer is pretty stupid but it is his/her camera and they are free to do what they feel they need to do. No idea why others have not had success but I am not going to leap to it is some plot to cheat customers.



dtaylor said:


> Well, for starters, instead of just ignoring threads discussing the issue or at least acknowledging there is an issue for some, people who don't have an issue with these limitations jump to statements like 'all the idiots' in reference to long time forum members.



I have discussed this issue ALOT and I am more then willing to continue to discuss the issue with sane and rational people that do not jump to conclusions based on what "I" see as clear bias towards Canon as company. With each data point that can even slightly seen as underhanded "all these idiots" leap to CRIPPLE HAMMER... It is tiresome.



dtaylor said:


> No, I do not think you get it. These threads are for Canon users to discuss R5 and R6 thermal issues, possible work arounds, and information which might lead to some idea of whether or not Canon can and/or will fix it. If you don't have a thermal issue, *you don't need to be in a thread* about thermal issues playing white knight for Canon. Canon will survive without you. In fact *if 'all the idiots' get their way and Canon mitigates these thermal issues, R5 and R6 sales will only increase.*



My last point before I place you back on ignore is I am "playing white knight' as you say because there is a campaign of disinformation and half truths stated as FACT going on and I do not suffer fools gladly.



dtaylor said:


> *you don't need to be in a thread*



You spelled ****** off wrong.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> My man... All i want is a perfect camera, and R5 can be that perfect camera, all i want is for Canon to fix it. Im just a dude who travels and takes photos and videos of my travels, right now i have to carry 2 boddies to achive everyting i want, but im waiting for the perfect camera that can do both. Like i dont understand why everyone is defending R5? why is everyone so keen on defending canon? If we all collectively complain enough MAYBE, just MAYBE this overheating will be solved, we all know now its a timer, we all know now that its software based, so maybe instead of defending canon and telling me to get a competitor, i already got a competitor i shoot on sony ATM, but its not perfect, a7r4 is inferior in video but superior in photos and a7s3 is superior in video but inferior in photos, i dont want 2 boddies i want 1 perfect camera, if canon just fixed the overheating it will be it, it will be THE perfect camera. so i will complain until it is  and i dont understand why people defending a brand, its just a logo dude, its not a team, i shoot any camera that is good, today its sony and canon, tomorow it will be nikkon, but one day i will get the perfect camera, and i hope that R5 is that camera  it looks great, it feels great, it smells great, it just needs to recored the god damn 4k 60p unlimited and i will call it my forever camera


+++++ it looks great, it feels great, it smells great, it just needs to recored the god damn 4k 60p unlimited and i will call it my forever camera

AM: it does record 4K60 All-I for 2.5 hours at least. So, stop complaining and call this your forever camera Already






Canon EOS R5 firmware update coming soon, RAW light to be added? [CR2]


Yep, being down for 6 days is bad. Like Garmin I am sure Canon will recover. Yeah I hope so too...




www.canonrumors.com


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> it doesnt, it records 4k60 for 35 minutes. its all in the manual


Yeah...? What’s this then? Sony A7r5?
read what is says : 4K60, with or without card with battery grip : 2.5 hours.




https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/attachments/0b6bf22f-4f92-43b4-a8d8-6bc6074e3439-jpeg.192119/


----------



## Kit. (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> mirrorless cameras still have a normal shutter you know  but its beyond the point, we tell the physical age by the shutter count right?


Who are those "we", again?

I don't. The only thing that the mechanical shutter count tells me is how likely I will need to replace the mechanical shutter in the near future, an event that is costly but not necessarily ends the camera life if the camera is still serviceable.



aljerj said:


> like when i buy a 2nd hand camera i dont care if its from 1985 or 2019,


Weird.

I would definitely not want to buy a digital camera from 1985. At least not for its primary function.



aljerj said:


> and We is like the entire photo/video comunity,


Not true.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> Ummmmmm browski if i wanted a camera with a battery grip and an Atomos Ninja on the top for vloging, i would have bought RED or some shit, this isn't canon r5, this is a Pro video rig. I want it to work without gadgets


Yeah right. Atmos Ninja is cheaper than CFE cards. And you do not need battery grip. just pop the card out and record to ninja. same cost.


----------



## Kit. (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> ahh dude... this isnt Republican/democrat Debate, I dont need your little bullet points and snarky remarks,


Then why did you start it?



aljerj said:


> Now some of US, the video/photo vlogger pees are on a mission to get this camera fixed,


Is that something of that "Republican/democrat" thingy?



aljerj said:


> and you can be a brother and not get in a way.


For that, I'm afraid, you will need to ask the laws of physics, not me.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 24, 2020)

TMHKR said:


> Matt Granger has a more "elegant" solution, without opening the camera and removing the internal battery:


I'd use Silly Puddy


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> Dude, im a traveler, i use a camera for filming vlogs and taking pictures on my travels, i cant carry this rig. It beast the whole point of having a mirrorless camera, im allrady forced to use some shitty APS-C 10-18mm cropped lens for vloging on this thing, cause canon RF glass is too heavy, so im gona pass on the Ninja i dont care how much it costs i just want it to work as it is, without gadgets. i dont shoot films, i dont shoot weadings, i shoot my life while i travel so form factor is one of the biggest things for me


Canon will fix it for you way before you will afford your next travel. They will introduce a lower bandwidth codecs (via a firmware update) that will extend filming times, 1080p/120 and clog 3. Good enough for the “photo/video community“ as you put it.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 24, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> I’m lobbying for GM to fix my Chevy so that it will perform like a Porsche. Still waiting.




It already does.

Corvette.


----------



## Kit. (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> I guess the laws of physics dont apply to A7s3 then or something?


If you want the functionality of A7s3, why don't you buy yourself an A7s3?

What I personally need in R5 is what A7s3 cannot provide.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 24, 2020)

Ramage said:


> I do not think you get it at all... To those that NEED the other modes what the ****** were they using 3 weeks ago for 8K, 4K120, 4K HQ, or even 4K60? Did those solutions disappear once the R5 was released or did they never really NEED anything? I get wanting these things but want and need are really very different things.



Yep. That's what gets me about this entire controversy. Stuff was totally unavailable before. Now, because it's somewhat available, but not unlimited, the only camera that provides it at all is unusable crap? That is indeed spoiled child behavior.



Ramage said:


> I have discussed this issue ALOT and I am more then willing to continue to discuss the issue with sane and rational people that do not jump to conclusions based on what "I" see as clear bias towards Canon as company. With each data point that can even slightly seen as underhanded "all these idiots" leap to CRIPPLE HAMMER... It is tiresome.



Yep, about a week ago people turned on a dime and decided that instead of there being thermal issues, there weren't thermal issues and Canon was being deceptive, and we've had a parade of new users show up to troll us with that line. Including the guy you were replying to. And yes a few much older users who had been away for so long I didn't recognize them on return--I wonder if their accounts got hacked?

I personally suspect that there's a combination of a bona fide temperature sensor (or sensors) and a timer that operates on the assumption that people won't void their camera warranty by opening it up, defeating door sensors, etc. Now why is that timer there? Could it be it was a simple effective solution to avoid having to put many, many sensors in and devote more (heat generating) processor time to running an elaborate thermal model (all of which would have cost more money by the way)? As people have pointed out, we _don't know_ how much of this is to prevent long term degradation of electronics due to running at just below the instant damage threshold. But no, the cripple hammer idiots (yeah, I'll agree with your usage, Ramage) leap to the conclusion this is someone trying to rip them off. In some cases it's ignorant people unable to imagine that they don't understand the situation, so they jump to the easiest answer they can think of, in others I suspect there are just people out there who assume that anyone more successful in life than they are got there by stealing or defrauding people. But when someone _starts off_ imputing bad motives on the part of a particular actor, it's really hard to convince that someone otherwise, because _any_ action can have sinister motives ascribed to it. If Canon put out a fix tomorrow, like these people are demanding, they'd simply consider it as proof that Canon is covering up. If they don't (like, maybe, because physics is real and can't be overcome by software), then that's just Canon continuing to try to rip them off.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 24, 2020)

Ramage said:


> Wonder why Canon is only showing their best side in advertising they are paying for??? Shameful marketing focusing the narrative on only what they want...
> 
> _mar·ket·ing
> 
> "the action or business of promoting and selling products or services, including market research and advertising."_




gimmick
noun [ C ]
mainly disapproving

something that is not serious or of real value that is used to attract people's attention or interest temporarily, especially to make them buy something:

8K in a stills camera


----------



## cornieleous (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> Dude, im a traveler, i use a camera for filming vlogs and taking pictures on my travels, i cant carry this rig. It beast the whole point of having a mirrorless camera, im allrady forced to use some shitty APS-C 10-18mm cropped lens for vloging on this thing, cause canon RF glass is too heavy, so im gona pass on the Ninja i dont care how much it costs i just want it to work as it is, without gadgets. i dont shoot films, i dont shoot weadings, i shoot my life while i travel so form factor is one of the biggest things for me



Sorry but anything less than 8K120 is garbage for travel vlogs and cat videos; you'll be laughed out of the room with your simple 4K60- pathetic footage. You need to work harder to get this failure of a camera fixed, it has been weeks already! It should shoot 16K AT LEAST onto cheap SD cards and have at least two more stops of stabilizing. Only 6-8 stops are you kidding me!? This is 2020, what a joke Canon! We could have had a levitating 32K240P camera with infinite battery life and pocket sized lenses but you crippled everything Canon the Betrayer! Truly, Canon is a villain and all you bold heroes will save us all, getting the "perfect" camera capable of all things in a tiny body for less money. Of course brand X will have a better camera in 6 months and we will all be a failure again and have to throw out all old pictures and video for the garbage quality. 45MP? 4K30? What a pathetic JOKE! Obvious sarcasm is obvious. 

Take a step back: You think the camera is broken because you want it to do what it was not designed to do and you cannot accept it. Your _interpretation _of this product is your ego talking, not logic or reason. A company made a thing and told you exactly what it can do. You don't like how it turned out so you will whine and moan and ridicule the company and anyone who does accept the camera for what it is. You argue it is crippled, broken, you've been cheated, etc. You say you want the perfect camera. What happens in a year when it isn't the best anymore? You are being completely unreasonable and telling everyone else they are the ones who don't get it. There is no real controversy here, just the one invented by people who continue to beat this dead horse. As if 4K30 standard is so awful, or vlogging or anything else is that much better in the HQ video modes. 

How do you POSSIBLY get by on your travels and vlogs now? Which 4k60 camera are you shooting now? You seem to be one of these people with some emotional fixation on an unreasonable scenario who thinks the perfect gear can be made and will make the shot. It is who is behind the camera and their ability that makes the shot. You can make incredible footage with any of the cameras out today. Do you hear marketing for other products and lose it? Do you return food because it isn't presented as pretty as the picture? 

You also say Canon RF glass is too heavy and you have to use crappy APS-C glass while you are pushing for cutting edge images!? So you want the best on paper but you are not willing to be inconvenienced to carry good glass...makes perfect sense. Why are you shooting full frame at all? Do you want a special lens line just for you that violates the laws of physics? Someone like you who cannot accept the physics of optics or electronics needs to be using a phone or gopro since you can't be realistic about equipment and insist on maximum portability. In fact I have seen very professional content produced with very small sensors and cameras. 

Maybe accepting a compromise somewhere would suit you better than trying to force the impossible. Go buy a camera that does suit your needs and stop complaining and go out and use it. You'll get a lot more enjoyment and better shots working with what is possible, than constantly lamenting what isn't. Or if you still insist, since you know better than Canon and all the other customers, you probably should start your own camera company because you clearly want to design a camera for your exact niche need and obviously Canon cannot get it right.


----------



## Greywind (Aug 24, 2020)

SteveC said:


> This one does both stills and video very well. Unless you _insist_ that the video be in 8K, or downsampled 8K (4KHQ) or (whatever the third overheat mode is, I've forgotten).
> 
> I find it curious that people are judging this camera poorly because it's limited in modes that other cameras don't have at all; then that other camera is pointed to as an example of a camera that does video well.
> 
> The 8 K is something that so far, no other camera in this class can do _at all_. So to claim that some other camera can do video well even though it ALWAYS has a zero minute limit in 8K, but this one doesn't do video well because it usually has 8K limitation _greater than zero_, is quite inconsistent. Now I don't know enough about other brands to compare the other video modes, but so far as I know the 1080p works well, and the 4K line skipping works quite well, too, _and they are not cropped_ (which was the last big complaint).


I don't care about 8K at all, 4K120p is quite interesting but not what I would use frequently. But the 4K60p should work, or at least HQ 4K30p without any overheating. 
Or even a bit lower in requirement: 30min working and 5-10min resting will recover it (fully), shooting stills should not affect recording videos. I don't mind the camera thicker by 1-2cm if that make the thermal managable. 
Well, that's just my wishlist but then the camera would be so practical and push Canon far ahead for few years until new models come out.
I saw some companies do rehousing vintage lenses for cameras. Some companies modify camera to have super low sensor heat, therefore super low thermal noise on sensor for astronomy. They charged a few thousands. Maybe we could see a R5x modified by third party to provide non-overheating video recording. If they could do it, adding 3-4k service fee on an R5 is still a feasible business but it's out of my budget entirely.


----------



## cornieleous (Aug 24, 2020)

Greywind said:


> I don't care about 8K at all, 4K120p is quite interesting but not what I would use frequently. But the 4K60p should work, or at least HQ 4K30p without any overheating.
> Or even a bit lower in requirement: 30min working and 5-10min resting will recover it (fully), shooting stills should not affect recording videos. I don't mind the camera thicker by 1-2cm if that make the thermal managable.
> Well, that's just my wishlist but then the camera would be so practical and push Canon far ahead for few years until new models come out.
> I saw some companies do rehousing vintage lenses for cameras. Some companies modify camera to have super low sensor heat, therefore super low thermal noise on sensor for astronomy. They charged a few thousands. Maybe we could see a R5x modified by third party to provide non-overheating video recording. If they could do it, adding 3-4k service fee on an R5 is still a feasible business but it's out of my budget entirely.



Are you suggesting a 3-4 thousand dollar service fee and redesign/modification of a stills camera that only costs that much as a solution instead of just buying a dedicated video camera or second body?! Why are you all so _obsessed _ with this? The R5 is an amazing camera that never bricks with 4k30 and still can shoot ultra quality for light duty. The VAST majority of people complaining don't seem to presently own equipment that can do what it does, and they get by, yet somehow it is not enough. I also notice many, perhaps most of them don't really need the HQ they want it, and they don't really need to shoot stills of the quality it can, they are vloggers and whatnot. Never watched a vlog (I try to avoid them) that would be better with ultra resolution. I think people are upset at the controversy itself, perhaps they identify with the things they buy or something.

I find these arbitrary lines of acceptable people are drawing for the R5/6 amusing- always with the conclusion that something is wrong and the cameras must be changed. Why is 4KHQ ok, but 4K30 standard is apparently unusable garbage? Compared to many other cameras the 4K30 from R5 looks quite competitive. Sharpened it looks very good. It may not be _as good_ but it is at least mid market and coming from an amazing stills camera (maybe the best out right now) and is the best hybrid full frame that has been put out by anyone (unless you can settle for 12MP stills or even more out of date cropped 4k30). Some Hollywood movies and TV shows were shot on the 5D2, reportedly it overheated, but the results were still amazing and people worked with what was the best possible tech at the time. Should they never show those episodes of House MD again, or sections of the movie Iron Man because that camera was imperfect?

Why are you not all ranting and raving at the 30 minute record limit and focusing like a laser on the limitations on HQ and 8K? I'm far more irritated with that than any real physical limitations engineering teams had to work with, and yet I still don't care, I can work with reality and adapt just fine, or I can buy another camera or brand (which I have done when a Canon doesn't fit).

In a year, will it be the next Canon model that is a failure because it only has 8K60 standard and not 8K60 HQ? Will you look back on 4K30 or 4KHQ and say it is utter garbage that you cannot believe anyone ever used? Just wondering, are you all also over in the Sony or Nikon forums beating them up for their failures?


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 24, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> *Sorry but anything less than 8K120 is garbage for travel vlogs and cat videos; you'll be laughed out of the room with your simple 4K60- pathetic footage*. You need to work harder to get this failure of a camera fixed, it has been weeks already! It should shoot 16K AT LEAST onto cheap SD cards and have at least two more stops of stabilizing. Only 6-8 stops are you kidding me!? This is 2020, what a joke Canon! We could have had a levitating 32K240P camera with infinite battery life and pocket sized lenses but you crippled everything Canon the Betrayer! Truly, Canon is a villain and all you bold heroes will save us all, getting the "perfect" camera capable of all things in a tiny body for less money. Of course brand X will have a better camera in 6 months and we will all be a failure again and have to throw out all old pictures and video for the garbage quality. 45MP? 4K30? What a pathetic JOKE! Obvious sarcasm is obvious.
> 
> Take a step back: You think the camera is broken because you want it to do what it was not designed to do and you cannot accept it. Your _interpretation _of this product is your ego talking, not logic or reason. A company made a thing and told you exactly what it can do. You don't like how it turned out so you will whine and moan and ridicule the company and anyone who does accept the camera for what it is. You argue it is crippled, broken, you've been cheated, etc. You say you want the perfect camera. What happens in a year when it isn't the best anymore? You are being completely unreasonable and telling everyone else they are the ones who don't get it. There is no real controversy here, just the one invented by people who continue to beat this dead horse. As if 4K30 standard is so awful, or vlogging or anything else is that much better in the HQ video modes.
> 
> ...



Very harsh.

Why such an animal hater? I love animals. birds, dogs, pussycats...

breath in...breath out...Serenity Now...


----------



## SteveC (Aug 24, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Just wondering, are you all also over in the Sony or Nikon forums beating them up for their failures?



I'm pretty sure I know the answer to THAT one.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 24, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Why are you not all ranting and raving at the 30 minute record limit and focusing like a laser on the limitations on HQ and 8K?



To be fair, I have seen some gripes about that 30 minute record limit. Whether it's from the same people, I couldn't say.


----------



## Kit. (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> i need megapixels i don't want to carry 2 bodies any more. I need to lighten my bag. a7s3 is of course the perfect video camera, but for photos its not high rez enough.


Oh, a7s3 lacks _megapixels_?

Maybe _that's_ why the same laws of physics result in a different set of limitations for that camera? What do you think?


----------



## Kit. (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> if canon R5 was overheating in oversimple modes only i would agree, but it cant even capture 60p line skip without overheat? its the same processing function as taking full read off 4k sensor like on s3...


No, it's not. R5 is DPAF, which means it needs to process twice as many pixel values.

Good for animal eye tracking, though, which is what I need from this camera.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> My friend..... you need to get off your high horse, mr preacher. I want a "perfect hybrid camera" that's what i mean, i don't have an ego and there is total logic. *They [Canon] didnt tell me "exactly" what it can do, i learned the limitations trough social media, if i blindly followed canons advertisement i wouldn't have learned about the limitations*. every so often it is time for an upgrade, i been rocking a7r3 and a6400 on my travels and it has been great, i dont "need" 4k60 or 4k HQ to make my videos or photos better, BUT it is time for it now. Panasonic, sony both deliver 4k60 without overheating, i dont like Panasonic i never had one and i dont want to try it, and my issue with sony going forward is that its a 2 system split, perhaps sony a7V will be the perfect hybrid, but i set my mind for an upgrade right now, so im between replacing my a6400 with a7s3 OR replacing both my cameras with R5.
> What 4k 60 Cameras im shooting now you ask? i dont, i shoot 60p at 1080 because and its great, but if i Upgrade my camera i need more then 1080 i need to have a reason to upgrade. my a7r3 costs about 2k right now so im doubling the price of the camera + glass for what? so i can have the same thing? its a stupid argument and you sound like a bitter man who has some weird envy for people who not using the creative devices the way you see them being used.
> My ability behind the camera is good dont you worry about that, and i dont need some preachy asshole telling me what i need and dont need, I know what i need, i need a perfect hybrid camera. at first R6 sounded like its the one, but its not as it overheats, now its R5 cause at least 4k24 not overheating, but more i think about it the less i want to switch because it sounds less and less like an upgrade and more and more like a switch.
> 
> ...



Right on! 

But so many people on this forum make fun of social media and Youtubers. For reason such as:
"all they talk about is how bad video is on this camera and nothing about how great it is for stills"

Well not EVERYONE has such high concerns for stills. 
Or Maybe since there are no issues with stills then there is nothing to WORRY about with regards to stills so there is no need to do a video about something that there is nothing about.
If Telsa's next car ends up crashing and killing people all the time, of course you will see more videos about that then the new specs and features.
Maybe because YouTube people need to use a VIDEO feature to create their content, that is why you see so many of them review mainly the VIDEO features of these types of camera.
Maybe it is completely ridiculous and OVERKILL to us an expensive Video/CINEMA that youtube people cannot possibly afford to do their videos?(It's YT, not Hollywood!)
And maybe if CANON 1) didn't market their new cameras with features as, and I QUOTE: "GROUND BREAKING", "REVOLUTIONARY" and 2) tell us just how long it would take to cool down completely (and all the other issues we found out ONLY FROM sources OTHER THAN CANON, such as YouTubers), then maybe none of this media mess would have happened and continue to happen for so many weeks (months now?)

Is this Canon's BIGGEST PR mess ever???


----------



## SteveC (Aug 24, 2020)

Kit. said:


> No, it's not. R5 is DPAF, which means it needs to process twice as many pixel values.



If you continue to confuse the poor (apparent) child with facts I'm going to have to report you to the moderators.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> leave us real artists alone,





Best laugh of the day, thank you.


----------



## Kit. (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> How is AF affecting the video capture?


Maybe you should learn what DPAF is.



aljerj said:


> im not sure that neather of us understand the tech deep enough to actualy debate this,


FWIW, I have a Master's degree in microelectronics.

You probably haven't finished high school, though.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 24, 2020)

scyrene said:


> Once again I'm pretty surprised by your approach on this issue, given your past objectivity. To characterise (all?) those countering the criticism as having 'no reason other than to want to defend Canon' is demonstrably wrong, wilfully misleading, and startlingly unconstructive.



Not from where I'm sitting. After reading this thread in one pass, I wrote that post rather than respond to the many baseless attacks against people discussing the overheating.



> A lot of people have merely been saying, there's no such thing as a free lunch, the limitations are unlikely to be a conspiracy (as some critics have suggested),



The first point is demonstrably false (in the context of this discussion) as people are finding ways of tricking the camera into recording longer periods and are not finding dangerous hot spots with FLIR cameras. Using the same cameras they can also show that time limits will engage when the camera is cooler than other times when it will record.

Which leads to the second point being a possibility, although in all fairness to Canon it's also possible the firmware is just buggy or unfinished in this regard.



> they were advertised from the start



This is probably the most annoying 'excuse' to hear over and over again: Canon did not advertise the cool down times nor the impact of stills shooting from the start, even though they render the HQ video modes practically worthless.



> Indeed to even state there are just two groups is to ignore a lot of nuance on the subject.



Repeating the things you did above is ignoring the nuances of the subject.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 24, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> I’m lobbying for GM to fix my Chevy so that it will perform like a Porsche. Still waiting.



You have never known a Porsche owner in your life if you think they wouldn't be threatening to burn the company to the ground over advertising a track car while failing to mention you need a 2 hour cool down after every 3 laps. And just sitting in the car listening to the radio might reduce that to 1 lap or even none.

And yes, Canon pushed the R5 as a Porsche, not a Chevy.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 24, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Do you realize that temperature is pretty capable of degrading electronics _over time_, and timers may be necessary to protect the camera aginst such degradation during its projected lifetime?



This excuse is wearing thin as well when consumer electronics routinely run to even higher temperatures for extended periods and last for years.


----------



## Kit. (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> ohh no I'm one of those very successful college drop outs.... got a lot of them master degree friends tho who are all broke... So tell me this tho browski, You are a "micro electronics master" the furtest thing from an artist, and im a senior Artist, so who are you to tell me what camera i need exactly?


I don't care about what camera you think you "need". I'm telling you that this camera is what I need, and if you want a different camera, go find your own.

If you were producing any actual art I would find interesting, I could care enough to try to help. But so far, it doesn't seem to be the case.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> great...so you got your camera then, so have it, keep it cherish it and shoot what you need to shoot with it. I dont have it yet, so ill keep bashing Canon untill I do easy as that...... and how would you know what is the case in terms of my art? i havent showed you any



So by what moral right do you decide you will make it a hobby to "bash Canon" just because they won't give you what you think you're entitled to? (And why not go attack someone else, since they haven't given you what you think you're entitled to, either?) The whiny, spoiled sense of entitlement just drips from your keyboard. You need to grow up.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 24, 2020)

Ramage said:


> Hmm, all the accounts created with a single post that have shown up on CR just to bash on the R5 qualifies them as ID 10 T's to me.



Name them. The names I'm looking at were registered long before the R5 was released.



> BTW if there is an intentional limitation that is protecting the Camera then *Canon has protected their customers. *Real shame that yours and others first thought is everyone is out to cheat them.



They still should have been clear in the limitations from the start.



> You see an IR Camera cannot read the code running in the Camera it can only show you a single data point. That you make the leap to this as proof that there is something underhanded going on is more a reflection of you.



Pretty sure if there was a hot spot the FLIR cameras would pick it up. I don't see silica ceramic insulators in any of the tear downs.



> I do not think you get it at all... To those that NEED the other modes what the ****** were they using 3 weeks ago for 8K, 4K120, 4K HQ, or even 4K60?



Oh that makes sense. If you didn't have it 3 weeks ago, why do you need it now? We can follow that line of reasoning all the way back to living in caves.

Whatever they were using three weeks ago I can tell you what *they will not be using* in the following weeks and months if it doesn't get fixed. While you're white knighting for m'lady Canon you might want to think about the long term impact on sales, marketshare, consumer perceptions, etc. If this is indeed a firmware problem Canon should address it then fix it ASAP. I'm of the opinion that if it's a fixable hardware problem it would be worth the recall cost to make it right.

People who are upset about this are not upset because they hate Canon or want Canon to fail. They're upset because they very much want to stick with Canon.



> I have discussed this issue ALOT and I am more then willing to continue to discuss the issue with sane and rational people that do not jump to conclusions based on what "I" see as clear bias towards Canon as company.



You don't believe there is an issue at all and basically just confirmed you're here for m'lady. Canon doesn't need you and the people who are trying to figure this out certainly do not need your sarcasm and insults.

And to think other people have said it's not fair for me to classify the contributors in these threads into two groups. Really? 



> My last point before I place you back on ignore is I am "playing white knight' as you say because there is a campaign of disinformation and half truths stated as FACT going on and I do not suffer fools gladly.



M'lady Canon is never going to sleep with you.



> You spelled ****** off wrong.



That was never my intent but you want to go there? Fine. ******* off.*


----------



## Kit. (Aug 24, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> This excuse is wearing thin as well when consumer electronics routinely run to even higher temperatures for extended periods and last for years.


Which of them contain linear 14-bit Gigaherz ADCs, for example?


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 24, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Yep. That's what gets me about this entire controversy. Stuff was totally unavailable before. Now, because it's somewhat available, but not unlimited, the only camera that provides it at all is unusable crap? That is indeed spoiled child behavior.



Over sampled, HQ, full sensor width 4k30 and 4k60 has been around for a while. Just not in an R body from Canon. And people understand that without a fan you're going to have thermal record limits. But nothing else on the market...nothing else...has 2 hour cool down times.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Aug 24, 2020)

The problem is not that you cannot record 30 minutes of 4K120P or 60P, the real problem is you cannot record 4K30P HQ for 30 minutes or cannot record 2 consecutive 20 minute clips because the camera won't let you.

Sometimes won't even let you record 20 minutes if you had the camera switched on on stand-by.

There was a wildlife photographer who shoot some stills, not a minute of video and then wanted to record some 4K30P HQ video and the camera only let him record 5 minutes.
Only able to record 5 minutes of 4K video is not really acceptable for a $4000 camera.

The only 4K mode you can really depend on is the 4K 30P (probably line skipped) standard mode, which is good but not the best quality.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 24, 2020)

SteveC said:


> So by what moral right do you decide you will make it a hobby to "bash Canon" just because they won't give you what you think you're entitled to?



By what moral right do people come to these threads and bash those complaining about thermal limits which render a product unfit for its advertised purpose? Is it really horrendously unfair to complain about this or to petition Canon to improve it?


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 24, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Which of them contain linear 14-bit Gigaherz ADCs, for example?



Sony for one.


----------



## Kit. (Aug 24, 2020)

aljerj said:


> great...so you got your camera then, so have it, keep it cherish it and shoot what you need to shoot with it. I dont have it yet, so ill keep bashing Canon untill I do easy as that...... and how would you know what is the case in terms of my art? i havent showed you any


You have, plenty, in this thread.


----------



## Kit. (Aug 24, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Sony for one.


Which one? Have you measured the ADC temperatures there?


----------



## Greywind (Aug 24, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Are you suggesting a 3-4 thousand dollar service fee and redesign/modification of a stills camera that only costs that much as a solution instead of just buying a dedicated video camera or second body?! Why are you all so _obsessed _ with this? The R5 is an amazing camera that never bricks with 4k30 and still can shoot ultra quality for light duty. The VAST majority of people complaining don't seem to presently own equipment that can do what it does, and they get by, yet somehow it is not enough. I also notice many, perhaps most of them don't really need the HQ they want it, and they don't really need to shoot stills of the quality it can, they are vloggers and whatnot. Never watched a vlog (I try to avoid them) that would be better with ultra resolution. I think people are upset at the controversy itself, perhaps they identify with the things they buy or something.
> 
> I find these arbitrary lines of acceptable people are drawing for the R5/6 amusing- always with the conclusion that something is wrong and the cameras must be changed. Why is 4KHQ ok, but 4K30 standard is apparently unusable garbage? Compared to many other cameras the 4K30 from R5 looks quite competitive. Sharpened it looks very good. It may not be _as good_ but it is at least mid market and coming from an amazing stills camera (maybe the best out right now) and is the best hybrid full frame that has been put out by anyone (unless you can settle for 12MP stills or even more out of date cropped 4k30). Some Hollywood movies and TV shows were shot on the 5D2, reportedly it overheated, but the results were still amazing and people worked with what was the best possible tech at the time. Should they never show those episodes of House MD again, or sections of the movie Iron Man because that camera was imperfect?
> 
> ...


Something is good at the moment does not we don't ask for more. Also, on all my words, posts in this forum, and especially about R5, I have never use the word "garbage" ,yet. Don't put your word or any others' word to my mouth, thanks.
The reason I hope for 4k60 instead of 4k30 because I already have 4k30, I don't spend on a big upgrade for small improvement of what I need, emphasize again, "what I need" not what you or anyone need. R5/R6 got what I expect, but then overheating issue emerges. 
The biggest conflict here is that you think "it's good enough, accept it" while I think "almost perfect, and something unclear about this overheating stuff, there are still room for improvement".


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Aug 24, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> *Sometimes won't even let you record 20 minutes if you had the camera switched on on stand-by.*



If the Camera is truly in stand-by you will not have any issues, you can leave it in stand-by all day and it will not get warm or cut into your record time. I have left my R5 on for hours with EVF shut off after 3mins and sleep after 5mins and it always gives me full time. Turn off this and yeah the grip will warm up and you will start to cut into there record time of the higher modes.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 25, 2020)

aljerj said:


> ohh no I'm one of those very successful college drop outs.... got a lot of them master degree friends tho who are all broke... So tell me this tho browski, You are a "micro electronics master" the furtest thing from an artist, and im a senior Artist, so who are you to tell me what camera i need exactly?


apologies for Jumping in, but so far, I have seen you engaging in forum discussions that have nothing to do with art. They are all highly technical subjects that require advanced understanding of law of physics, thermo dynamics or electronic design. Some of your statements are technically controversial to put it mildly. I have no doubt that you may be a fine artist. That very well may be. But could you please do yourself And CR forum a huge favour: stop this endless complain. It is counterproductive, irritating, tiresome and silly. There are much better suited places for all of these silliness.

here is what you said:

”... I dont have it yet, so ill keep bashing Canon untill I do easy as that...”

so, You do not own any Canon gear and the Sole purpose of your existence on CR forum is to bash Canon technology, create disruption, flood forum with unwarranted complains about Highly technical subjects, that you have no even a slight idea about. thats Trolling by definition.
you are not here to learn or share knowledge. your contribution to CR community has not been great so far.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 25, 2020)

Zzzz...zzzz....

R5 works for some, doesn't for others. 
People are hackers. 
People are now attacking others. 

End of story.

Time to close this thread


----------



## pmjm (Aug 25, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Why should I share it?
> 
> What kind of expertise in thermal engineering do you have to make such a claim?
> 
> Do you realize that temperature is pretty capable of degrading electronics _over time_, and timers may be necessary to protect the camera aginst such degradation during its projected lifetime?



And where's your engineering degree to affirm Canon's approach? I may be an amateur in electronics engineering (even though I've designed my fair share of circuits), but I know business. Crippling one tier of product to protect another is a textbook play. We can't say for certain that's what happened here but there's evidence pointing in that direction. When there's measurable, reproducable evidence, I, personally, need more to justify my purchase than blind faith in a multinational corporation. They need to address it, not just to satisfy me personally but for PR overall. Canon has never faced stiffer competition than now and outside of the bubble of this website, a lot of previously loyal Canon enthusiasts and professionals are jumping ship.

In any case, the speed at which I wear out my components via heat cycling is my choice since it's my device. If I want to wear it out in a year, I should be able to do that, just as when I choose to overclock my PC's and run laps with my car at 130mph on the track. These too reduce the usable lifespan of the product but I'm not prevented from doing so.

Again, more evidence is needed and there's no justification for outrage yet, but at this point it's indisputable that calling it "overheating" is a misnomer at best as these lockouts are demonstrably not due to realtime measurement of heat.

All that said, when the R5 works, it's incredible.

Edit: I just saw in another post you have a masters in microelectronics so I have struck my first sentence. Fair enough.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 25, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> By what moral right do people come to these threads and bash those complaining about thermal limits which render a product unfit for its advertised purpose? Is it really horrendously unfair to complain about this or to petition Canon to improve it?



YOU, sir, are being relatively rational; the man I was responding to had a totally irrational attitude of entitlement.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Aug 25, 2020)

IMO, this thread has played itself out.


----------



## francomade (Aug 25, 2020)

In summary:

There is never an OVERHEATING issue. It is a SOFTWARE limitation. Canon cheated us. Hopefully canon fixes this with a firmware update.


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 25, 2020)

Ramage said:


> IMO, this thread has played itself out.


Yep, the moment we reduce the thread to expletives it has played out. I get frustration, I get that people are trying to ensure information is presented fairly. I get that I am human and have flaws, but please those few try to not get it to the point where we are swearing at each other....


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 25, 2020)

The argument that no other camera has these high bit rate modes, or no Canon camera did until 3 weeks ago or you you don’t need 8k unless you are shooting video professionally and/or need an 8k tv are really not valid points for me.

People buy higher resolution sensors for stills. Until the r5 if you wanted in excess of 30MP your only choice was the 5ds/r range (I have one). Can the 5ds do wildlife? Sure it can, and many threads have shown people with more talent than I in capturing these. But until 3 weeks ago, I could not own a camera from Canon with a very competitive AF system, fast fps and maybe their best high res sensor. 

Shooting in the best resolution for stills is a natural thing to do. It is not the only option. Shooting in high bit rate video and high res modes is the same. It gives you flexibility in post edit. I still have photos from a 10d which I reprocess all these years later to improve the quality. In 10 years time, I might be able to do the same with 8k video and might even have a 8k tv. Who knows. But given the chance I will always capture in the highest quality and accept the implications of doing so. You’re needs may be different.

I shoot stills mainly, and not professionally. It’s my spare time that I enjoy photography along with travel. Capturing short video clips is something I like to do. Not for professional reasons. Give me a camera with better quality video (subjective) and I would like to use them.

With my r5 I am working out how to maximise the chance of doing that. I’m hindsight, maybe I could have guessed that stills might impact the high bitrate modes when Canon issued the recording times. Would it have stopped me buying it? Unlikely. Could I have guessed the cool down times? Unlikely. Did those 2 things result in me returning the r5? No. The more I have used it, the more I will definitely keep it. But those 2 things do disappoint me, and maybe I am being unfair to Canon. They are not the first company to market something with a footnote, nor to shine a bright light to differentiate when the reality isn’t quite there.

But I also hope people here appreciate that until you reach that understanding of those limitations and compare it to all the positives, it’s quite a human thing to share those frustrations here. Not everyone does of course. It’s just venting like you may do after a rubbish day at work...

Oh and I have read that focus stacking only uses the electronic shutter and is thus limited to 0.5 s exposure max. I doubt that is a bug, but it is a little strange as I understand that isn’t on other Canons which have it. I might add that to my list to post to Canon support. Not a deal breaker, you can always do it manually but I still prefer to use AEB to manually bracketing...


----------



## SteveC (Aug 25, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> The argument that no other camera has these high bit rate modes, or no Canon camera did until 3 weeks ago or you you don’t need 8k unless you are shooting video professionally and/or need an 8k tv are really not valid points for me.



My issue is with those who denigrate the entire camera as worthless because the new modes are not unlimited. And with those who assume the limits were placed for malicious reasons.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 25, 2020)

francomade said:


> In summary:
> 
> There is never an OVERHEATING issue. It is a SOFTWARE limitation. Canon cheated us. Hopefully canon fixes this with a firmware update.



Your alleged "summary," sir, is false to fact; this has not been shown to be the case.


----------



## steven_diexplora (Aug 25, 2020)

francomade said:


> In summary:
> 
> There is never an OVERHEATING issue. It is a SOFTWARE limitation. Canon cheated us. Hopefully canon fixes this with a firmware update.


This link should say it all about the overheating issue https://www.eoshd.com/news/this-is-...-straight-until-empty-battery-video-evidence/







Canon EOS R5 so-called overheat timer defeated by a single screw in battery door – EOSHD.com – Filmmaking Gear and Camera Reviews







www.eoshd.com


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 25, 2020)

SteveC said:


> My issue is with those who denigrate the entire camera as worthless because the new modes are not unlimited. And with those who assume the limits were placed for malicious reasons.


I understand. I think any stills shooters should just hire it for a day, or if they have a friendly dealer and the funds, then go try it there.


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 25, 2020)

steven_diexplora said:


> This link should say it all about the overheating issue https://www.eoshd.com/news/this-is-...-straight-until-empty-battery-video-evidence/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry it doesn’t say anything other than you can fool the camera into recording for longer. It doesn’t tell you the medium or long term effect, but it does perhaps point to the method that Canon use is fallible to hacking.

Eos Hd was not the first to do this. There are a couple of guys from DPR and FM who did. But they are not suggesting it is a fix and even warned against possible impact to the Camera in their video.

Bottom line, if Andrew isn’t happy I suspect he could easily get a refund (well until he started doing some of the tests which bypass Canon controls). Taking it to a small claims court as he has threatened will he met with the response “did you ask for a refund and get denied?” No? Well you have no reason to be here unless that fails. 

It’s his website, he can do what he likes, post what he likes, threaten Canon but ultimately I do not think his motives are he’s trying to champion the cause to make a better product or get the current one fixed.

You are free to share that here, of course, but I suspect other people in the forum will continue to say the same thing “get a refund if you’re not happy overall, cancel your pre order”, or don’t order it.... it’s great to have choice / options...


----------



## SteveC (Aug 25, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> I understand. I think any stills shooters should just hire it for a day, or if they have a friendly dealer and the funds, then go try it there.



OK, I am a bit confused by this. Why would stills shooters want to do that, rather than buy the camera, which from their point of view is fantastic? 

If anything, it seems your advice would make sense more for video-oriented people, to see if they like what it does enough to be willing to work around the issues.


----------



## Antono Refa (Aug 25, 2020)

I'm amazed at how much effort people would invest in this. Has anyone spent that much effort into other brands' cameras? What's the point? Do they think that if they prove Canon cripple hammered the camera for whatever reason, it will remove the limitations?


----------



## home_slice (Aug 25, 2020)

As a commercial photographer who dabbles in video (mostly b-roll for social and the occasional brand video) about 80% of what I deliver is still images. For this reason, the r5 limitations didn’t seem like they would be a big issue for me ..until I got one in hand. On a studio shoot for a whisky brand, I took my buddies r5 for a spin. I got some product stills and wanted to try a slow motion pour shot. It gave me about 5 minutes (mostly used to frame out my shot) before overheating.

Why is there not better 1080 options available? I’d love to work with 1080 120 (or better yet 240) and a good 4K downsampled. Am I alone here?

I’ve been wanting to start my transition to the RF system since it’s release but just haven’t felt like it was a safe move. As professionals, we need to depend on our gear and for my purposes the R5 is just not that tool yet.


----------



## BeenThere (Aug 25, 2020)

home_slice said:


> As a commercial photographer who dabbles in video (mostly b-roll for social and the occasional brand video) about 80% of what I deliver is still images. For this reason, the r5 limitations didn’t seem like they would be a big issue for me ..until I got one in hand. On a studio shoot for a whisky brand, I took my buddies r5 for a spin. I got some product stills and wanted to try a slow motion pour shot. It gave me about 5 minutes (mostly used to frame out my shot) before overheating.
> 
> Why is there not better 1080 options available? I’d love to work with 1080 120 (or better yet 240) and a good 4K downsampled. Am I alone here?
> 
> I’ve been wanting to start my transition to the RF system since it’s release but just haven’t felt like it was a safe move. As professionals, we need to depend on our gear and for my purposes the R5 is just not that tool yet.


Many are hoping Canon will add some of the additional modes you mention in a firmware upgrade. It is frustrating waiting for this to happen. Canon should give some guidance as to what can be expected in future firmware along with the timeframe.


----------



## nchoh (Aug 25, 2020)

As a programmer, I can see the possible logic of Canon's implementation of the thermal shutdown and recovery. The Digic processor is small as size is at a premium in a small form factor (smaller than a desktop for sure) and also from a heat generation perspective. So, how do they code the the camera to shutdown and recover? 1) There is a difference between shutting down and cooling off. When cooling off, the camera is disabled from normal operations, so you can use the thermal sensors to monitor the temperature. 2) When normal shooting, one can trigger a timer when certain functions (8K video) is activated. Canon may not want to constantly monitor the temperatures as that would mean unnecessary cpu cycles when action activated timer would be more efficient. (the heat generation for each different activity can easily determined in a lab).

The above scenario would explain why the R5 seems to have a timer shutdown and a temperature based cool off. This is only speculation on my part, but it seems likely based on some of the facts revealed in outside tests. In reality, there would likely be a more complex set of logic implemented into the camera but one that is based on a timer and temperature sensor.


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 25, 2020)

SteveC said:


> OK, I am a bit confused by this. Why would stills shooters want to do that, rather than buy the camera, which from their point of view is fantastic?
> 
> If anything, it seems your advice would make sense more for video-oriented people, to see if they like what it does enough to be willing to work around the issues.


Oh, sorry, as in if people here are unsure due to the FUD, hire it and see for themselves, rather than get bewildered by all the commentary here...


----------



## BeenThere (Aug 25, 2020)

Antono Refa said:


> I'm amazed at how much effort people would invest in this. Has anyone spent that much effort into other brands' cameras? What's the point? Do they think that if they prove Canon cripple hammered the camera for whatever reason, it will remove the limitations?


Everybody shoots at #1 to try to knock them off their perch.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 25, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> Oh, sorry, as in if people here are unsure due to the FUD, hire it and see for themselves, rather than get bewildered by all the commentary here...



OK...nonetheless there is no FUD for stills, it's only where it's a combination of the two, or video only, that there is any FUD.



home_slice said:


> Why is there not better 1080 options available? I’d love to work with 1080 120 (or better yet 240) and a good 4K downsampled. Am I alone here?



I agree with this. 1080/120 should have about the same bit rate as normal 4k/30, and I would be surprised if it were an overheating mode. 240 would have the same bitrate as 4k/60...and if I recall that's an overheating mode. So they could do that but many would not like the result.  4k downsampled? Not sure if that would overheat or not; depends on how much work it is to downsample. I'd err on the side of going ahead and providing the modes, if I thought customers were rational, but putting them out there and having them overheat would cause people to throw such a fit that Canon perhaps shouldn't do it at all (ruining it for everyone, including those willing/able to tolerate/work around the restrictions).


----------



## Film2.0 (Aug 25, 2020)

Petition Canon to fix R5 with firmware update within 30 days 

https://www.change.org/p/stop-the-cripple-hammer


----------



## jeffa4444 (Aug 25, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> How are you going to take pictures without an EVF? Framing rectangle in the hot shoe?


I didn't mean the EVF. I meant using it as a video camera!


----------



## hoodlum (Aug 26, 2020)

Someone has found a workaround to get usable video files indefinitely when formating the SD card to FAT32. This created new DAT files every ~45 seconds when recording 8k so you only loose the last FAT32 file. You just need to plan on finishing your recording a minute before the timer kicks in and then allow the last FAT32 file to be created by continuing to record. The last DAT file can then be tossed.





__





Canon R5 shooting as many consecutive 8K 17 minutes recordings as you dare to: Canon EOS R Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review


Expert news, reviews and videos of the latest digital cameras, lenses, accessories, and phones. Get answers to your questions in our photography forums.




www.dpreview.com


----------



## cayenne (Aug 26, 2020)

canonnews said:


> has Magic Lantern cracked any recent camera?



I don't believe so....not the R, etc.

BUT..if there ever was a target to do so again...THIS, the R5 would be a goldmine!!


Just my $0.02,

cayenne


----------



## jvillain (Aug 26, 2020)

canonnews said:


> has Magic Lantern cracked any recent camera?


The most recent fully working one is the EOS M. But they have dumped the ROMs and have emulation running for most of the newer cameras except the R5/6 but I suspect those are comming soon. They don't need to have a fully working ROM to know what Canon is doing under the hood. By the time they have it working in an emulator they can definitely tell what is going on.


----------



## Yasko (Aug 26, 2020)

So you only need to remove a battery on the mainboard every 5 minutes? Nice fix!


----------



## Greywind (Aug 27, 2020)

Yasko said:


> So you only need to remove a battery on the mainboard every 5 minutes? Nice fix!


You remove the internal battery (never put it back) and whenever you pull out the normal battery, camera will forget everything.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 27, 2020)

Greywind said:


> You remove the internal battery (never put it back) and whenever you pull out the normal battery, camera will forget everything.



And that means everything, presumably, your settings, time and date, timezone, button customizations...


----------



## photonius (Aug 27, 2020)

I always put the camera in cold water. Cools it down quite fast...


----------



## cayenne (Aug 27, 2020)

masterpix said:


> Give me the 5D mark 5! ONLY STILLS, with the R5/1DX3 eye/object tracking...



Yeah....good luck with that.


----------



## Greywind (Aug 28, 2020)

SteveC said:


> And that means everything, presumably, your settings, time and date, timezone, button customizations...


That's why it's impractical. Maybe Magic Lantern could do some magic later on.


----------



## masterpix (Aug 28, 2020)

cayenne said:


> Yeah....good luck with that.


People do buy lottory tickets although the chances are one to zillion. Don't kill hope among photographers.


----------

