# Help with 8mm video copying



## Jack Douglas (Jan 25, 2022)

I have finally dug out my old Sony 8mm camcorder and a bunch of tapes of Peru and Machu Pichu done in 1988. They haven't been played in 30 years and seem to be decent for the time and my two youngest are in the footage as well as other family so now I'd really like to get them in digital form (without spending too much at least until I've assessed exactly what is actually worthy).

So, can it work for me to just set my R5 on a tripod in front of the 4K TV and record in HD? If so are there any things to try to do that would be helpfull? I wondered if I recorded in 1080/60 if that would improve the hand held shakiness aspect somewhat.


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## kaihp (Jan 25, 2022)

I would do a couple of short trials, before trying to record it all. The frame rates might be slightly off, so you could have what would appear as changing illumination. In particular, a high recording framerate could make the problem worse.


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## Joules (Jan 25, 2022)

So, I have no experience working with 8 mm whatsoever due to my age. But I have digitized a few VHS tapes, some of which had footage on them that came from a 8mm camcorder.

Is that also what you are doing? If so, what's the output that you are using to get the footage to display on the TV? Have you considered buying a capture device that can directly grabs that signal and turns it into a digital one, like your TV is doing, and recording that on a PC? Depending on the format of your output, this isn't particularly expensive. This is what I have done, although the quality of my tapes is really quite poor by modern standards so I'm not giving up much by using a cheap converter. 

As for filming the TV, watch out for aliasing of course, but old tapes don't have enough detail anyway, so slightly defocusing the lens does the trick.

I think tuning the TV and camera picture profiles so that you get a decent white balance and no clipping could take some experimentation.

As for the shaking, do you mean you want to edit the video afterwards with a software that can stabilize it? If so, make sure to record in a format your PC can handle. Unless you have a M1 device from apple, which has hardware support for the problematic codecs.

If you want to just have digital stabilization enabled while recording the screen, I would expect some odd results since the camera probably uses its sensors to determine if it is moving, and not just the image content. I'm not sure though, never used a Canon with that feature on a tripod. Worth a shot I guess.


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## stevelee (Jan 25, 2022)

I have Elgato Video Capture. It came in a box with software and cables that plug into the video out of a VHS player and USB to the computer. If your 8mm player has RCA jacks, that should work. I have shot stills and video off my TV. I do it at night with lights turned off to avoid reflections. The TV has a 120 Hz refresh rate, so it is flashing the picture more than once. That perhaps helps with sync problems. I think I shot at 30p.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 25, 2022)

Thanks for the insights, guys. I thought maybe the first words I might hear would be, are you crazy? I will be prepared for some weird stuff and give it a try. I'm new to anything/everything video but now own Vegas Pro 18 and really want to do more video work. As a Senior, it's hard to get started whereas in years gone by I just tackled things without reservation.

For now it's just my Sony 8mm camcorder playing the 120 cassette while plugged into the analog video input of my 4K TV and of course it's terrible compared to R5 video but also still very enjoyable.

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 25, 2022)

stevelee said:


> I have Elgato Video Capture. It came in a box with software and cables that plug into the video out of a VHS player and USB to the computer. If your 8mm player has RCA jacks, that should work. I have shot stills and video off my TV. I do it at night with lights turned off to avoid reflections. The TV has a 120 Hz refresh rate, so it is flashing the picture more than once. That perhaps helps with sync problems. I think I shot at 30p.


Thanks, that's one more idea. Yes, RCA video out.


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## unfocused (Jan 25, 2022)

Before spending anything on equipment, I'd suggest you look into sending them off to be digitized. I did that a few years ago with some family slides that were mostly shot by my Dad in the 50s and 60s, as well as a few old 8mm films. It was far cheaper than investing in a lot of equipment and quality was much better than what I could produce without investing in expensive, professional quality equipment. 

I just did a quick search and Kodak has a digitizing service – 10 films for $150 is the price they advertise on their website. There are many others.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 25, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Before spending anything on equipment, I'd suggest you look into sending them off to be digitized. I did that a few years ago with some family slides that were mostly shot by my Dad in the 50s and 60s, as well as a few old 8mm films. It was far cheaper than investing in a lot of equipment and quality was much better than what I could produce without investing in expensive, professional quality equipment.
> 
> I just did a quick search and Kodak has a digitizing service – 10 films for $150 is the price they advertise on their website. There are many others.


I think there is merit in your suggestion but not sure it fits my situation. My material from this Peruvian holiday is in serious need of editing. Like two hours should become fifteen minutes. There are many 120 cassettes, so off hand I had kind of dismissed the commercial route although maybe if I did something myself first it would more clearly define whether it made sense to have it professionally done. Slides are a different story.

Jack


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## stevelee (Jan 25, 2022)

A quick look at Amazon shows video capture devices from $10 to $110 or so. Obviously you can spend more for pro equipment.


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## unfocused (Jan 25, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> I think there is merit in your suggestion but not sure it fits my situation. My material from this Peruvian holiday is in serious need of editing. Like two hours should become fifteen minutes. There are many 120 cassettes, so off hand I had kind of dismissed the commercial route although maybe if I did something myself first it would more clearly define whether it made sense to have it professionally done. Slides are a different story.
> 
> Jack


Makes sense. As I said, I was mostly working with slides, as my Dad was heavily into slide shows in the 60s. It was pretty easy to cull through those and eliminate the ones that were scenery and other sites and focus on the ones that had family in them (who really cares about pictures of Old Faithful from 50+ years ago?)

In your case, I was mostly thinking about the 8mm films, which would be very difficult to do with an in-home setup. I think VHS tapes would be time consuming, but not as hard. I did a quick search and it looks like there are lots of videos on YouTube that walk you through it. Here is one (I have no idea about the comparative quality of this particular one, but his demonstration seemed pretty clear and easy to do). The good news is that once they are digitized, it will be a snap to edit them in Premiere or another editing program.


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## shire_guy (Jan 26, 2022)

I recently transferred all my Video 8 tapes to digital from my old Sony Handycam. I used a product from StarTech.com called 'USB Video Capture Cable - S-Video or Composite'. Very similar to Elgato Video Capture suggested by @stevelee which I looked at, but I don't think it was easily available here.
StarTech comes with Movavi video editing software which was a little old so I upgraded to a newer version (more cost ~A$60). Movavi also allows a free demo try. It worked quite good and I was able to do quite a bit of editing. The resultant quality was similar to the Handycam output direct to the TV.
I didn't try recording from the TV screen.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 26, 2022)

So, to be clear, the hardware actually digitizes any analog video signal directly via USB cable, so instead of the bother of using my camera with the TV I'd just feed my camcorder output via this cable to my computer hard drive? For the relatively small price, that seems to be the best bet.

Jack


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## shire_guy (Jan 26, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> So, to be clear, the hardware actually digitizes any analog video signal directly via USB cable, so instead of the bother of using my camera with the TV I'd just feed my camcorder output via this cable to my computer hard drive? For the relatively small price, that seems to be the best bet.
> 
> Jack


I am not technical enough to give you a definitive answer on that, sorry. I believe it is a combination of both the hardware and the video editor. Using the cables I was able to plug my Handycam into my PC's USB port. You will need a video editor that allows the recording of video from an external device. In my case (Movavi Video Editor Plus) the analog from the tapes was converted into a proprietary file format that I could only edit using the Movavi software. Once I had completed my edit I was able to save into a more generic format - I chose avi. I am not video orientated but it was like going from CR3 to JPG. For info I was able to digitize some VHS tapes I had using the same process.

I did look around for other video editors that allowed recording but with not much success for the price. Also given the StarTech cables came with the Movavi software, I thought maybe keeping it simple was the way to go. Apart from cutting, splicing and headers there was a limit what I could do with the quality of the video output - I guess that is a feature of 20yr old video.

I don't know what video editor Elgato Video Capture uses but I assume the process would be similar. If you go along this route I would try any free trials of the software. For me the tutorials on the editing side were essential.


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## stevelee (Jan 26, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> So, to be clear, the hardware actually digitizes any analog video signal directly via USB cable, so instead of the bother of using my camera with the TV I'd just feed my camcorder output via this cable to my computer hard drive? For the relatively small price, that seems to be the best bet.
> 
> Jack


That’s the way my Elgato works (more or less). It came with software that captures the signal and saves it as a video file that can be then edited in the software of your choice. (It might have some editing capability, but if so I didn’t pay any attention to it.) I use Final Cut Pro X, and my Mac has iMovie. As an Adobe subscriber, I also have Premiere. I’m more used to FCP X, but Premiere has color grading that seems more like what I am used to in Photoshop, so my software choice depends upon what I am doing. I don’t know whether the software still works in the Mac OS version I have now. If not, I can use my old Mac Pro that I keep around for using old software and because of its inputs.

So if you decide to buy something for the conversion, be sure to look at what is included and compatibility. I got the Elgato on short notice. A client of a friend had a VHS tape of when he had been interviewed on some Turner program or PM Magazine or something. He wanted the video to be available on his web site, so I digitized it for him. My fee covered the device cost and just a little more. (It was more of a favor than a job.)

Some months later the client called me from the airport before he left for Europe. He had appeared on a TV show on the local PBS station and wanted video of that. He didn’t know the name of the show or when the episode would air. I set the DVR to record episodes of the most likely show. The second try was right. Output from the cable box was analog only, so I decided to shoot video off the TV. That worked really well. So I have experience doing it both ways. My guess is that you will get better quality with a device like the Elgato for your project.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 26, 2022)

shire_guy said:


> I am not technical enough to give you a definitive answer on that, sorry. I believe it is a combination of both the hardware and the video editor. Using the cables I was able to plug my Handycam into my PC's USB port. You will need a video editor that allows the recording of video from an external device. In my case (Movavi Video Editor Plus) the analog from the tapes was converted into a proprietary file format that I could only edit using the Movavi software. Once I had completed my edit I was able to save into a more generic format - I chose avi. I am not video orientated but it was like going from CR3 to JPG. For info I was able to digitize some VHS tapes I had using the same process.
> 
> I did look around for other video editors that allowed recording but with not much success for the price. Also given the StarTech cables came with the Movavi software, I thought maybe keeping it simple was the way to go. Apart from cutting, splicing and headers there was a limit what I could do with the quality of the video output - I guess that is a feature of 20yr old video.
> 
> I don't know what video editor Elgato Video Capture uses but I assume the process would be similar. If you go along this route I would try any free trials of the software. For me the tutorials on the editing side were essential.


Thanks, that helps quite a bit. I was hopping it would simply be .MOV or some such format from the converter. I'll have to do more investigating. As mentioned initially, I have Vegas Pro but so far haven't seriously learned it. Sometimes my aging brain feels like what my parents told me it would eventually. >)

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 26, 2022)

stevelee said:


> That’s the way my Elgato works (more or less). It came with software that captures the signal and saves it as a video file that can be then edited in the software of your choice. (It might have some editing capability, but if so I didn’t pay any attention to it.) I use Final Cut Pro X, and my Mac has iMovie. As an Adobe subscriber, I also have Premiere. I’m more used to FCP X, but Premiere has color grading that seems more like what I am used to in Photoshop, so my software choice depends upon what I am doing. I don’t know whether the software still works in the Mac OS version I have now. If not, I can use my old Mac Pro that I keep around for using old software and because of its inputs.
> 
> So if you decide to buy something for the conversion, be sure to look at what is included and compatibility. I got the Elgato on short notice. A client of a friend had a VHS tape of when he had been interviewed on some Turner program or PM Magazine or something. He wanted the video to be available on his web site, so I digitized it for him. My fee covered the device cost and just a little more. (It was more of a favor than a job.)
> 
> Some months later the client called me from the airport before he left for Europe. He had appeared on a TV show on the local PBS station and wanted video of that. He didn’t know the name of the show or when the episode would air. I set the DVR to record episodes of the most likely show. The second try was right. Output from the cable box was analog only, so I decided to shoot video off the TV. That worked really well. So I have experience doing it both ways. My guess is that you will get better quality with a device like the Elgato for your project.


There were comments on that video the guy did on Elgato that were mostly positive except for some audio complaints and one person started asking about it being interlaced and whatever and it sounded like it was less that ideal, but the quality of 8mm in the first place is not very good so ?? What digital output format did you have to work with? I'm still not clear on that.

Jack


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## dcm (Jan 26, 2022)

Transferred 100+ hrs of family video on VHS and Sony Hi-8 tapes to digital years ago. Video capture on Mac/PC wasn't all that great at the time - I tried a couple of tools. Hard drives were pretty expensive and DVD made more sense for a storage medium. Tools have improved and hard drives are cheaper these days.

At the time I picked up a Sony VRD-MC5 to transfer directly to DVD - still have it. The Sony is a self contained unit with analog inputs to record from different sources that worked well for my purposes and handled the bulk processing. Push record, start the player, and come back when it is done to start the next one. I had a playable DVD for the TV and a digital source for editing in iMovie. I cloned them so my daughters had complete video history of their childhood.

As noted, analog tapes are lower quality than the digital recording is capable so YMMV, just as SD sources don't look as good in HD. I found that I got a better signal from my Hi8 player than the recorder. I also found differences in output quality of the VHS players and recorders so I ended up with a high quality player (6 heads) to record from. Not sure you have as many options these days.

My brother-in-law recorded old B&W family 8mm films using a my Hi8 recorder using a small projection box. Then used the Sony unit to transfer them to DVD.  These were obviously of lower quality given the source, but just as good as watching it on an old projector without all of the hassle.

When I retire I might find the time to edit the movies down into small clips for my daughters and granddaughters. In the meantime, my granddaughters like to watch their mom and aunt grow up on TV.


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## stevelee (Jan 26, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> There were comments on that video the guy did on Elgato that were mostly positive except for some audio complaints and one person started asking about it being interlaced and whatever and it sounded like it was less that ideal, but the quality of 8mm in the first place is not very good so ?? What digital output format did you have to work with? I'm still not clear on that.
> 
> Jack


I’d have to look up the original file on an old hard drive. But it was something standard that FCP X opened directly. Maybe the software gave me a choice of how to save it. It has been a few years since I have used it. I didn’t notice any audio problems. VHS is interlaced, so I guess the analog signal is equivalent to 480i. I would expect the 8mm video output to be similar, and the audio may well be better than VHS. So expect to wind up with a 640x480 video. That was fine for posting on a web page, but probably looks awful blown up on a 60”+ 4K TV.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 26, 2022)

stevelee said:


> I’d have to look up the original file on an old hard drive. But it was something standard that FCP X opened directly. Maybe the software gave me a choice of how to save it. It has been a few years since I have used it. I didn’t notice any audio problems. VHS is interlaced, so I guess the analog signal is equivalent to 480i. I would expect the 8mm video output to be similar, and the audio may well be better than VHS. So expect to wind up with a 640x480 video. That was fine for posting on a web page, but probably looks awful blown up on a 60”+ 4K TV.


It looks just fine... from 50 feet. It is bad but the "memory" aspect is still good. 

I'm thinking I'm going to give the, video of the TV with my camera, a try and then decide unless someone comes up with a super alternative. Elgato probably is a good choice if I decide to spend the few dollars. So, thanks to all for your ideas.

Jack


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## Del Paso (Jan 26, 2022)

I hate you all for reminding me that I still have to digitize 45 years of Kodachrome slides....


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## Joules (Jan 26, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> So, to be clear, the hardware actually digitizes any analog video signal directly via USB cable, so instead of the bother of using my camera with the TV I'd just feed my camcorder output via this cable to my computer hard drive? For the relatively small price, that seems to be the best bet.
> 
> Jack


That is correct. USB is a digital interface, so the device you plug your cable into handles the conversion into a digital signal.

But that still needs to be converted to a meaningful video format and captured on a drive. Which is what your PC does with either the software included in the converter device, or some third party alternative.

The device I use is a cheap one from CSL, and although it works, I suspect it may not be the best quality. Neither is the old VHS player I use, nor the footage on the tapes, so I think it's okay. But purely because they are a big name in the space of video capture (mainly for streaming console games) I would have got the Elgato one if it had been on my radar at the time of purchase.

Although apparently going with RCA composite rather than S Video as the analogue output already butchers the quality so there's probably not much to save by the time the signal reaches the converter USB device. But my VHS recorder doesn't have anything else.

With my particular converter, I can also use the free and very powerful VLC video software to display the signal coming from the USB device almost properly. But not quite, so although VLC would be a better way to capture the signal since it offers more control, I just use the bundled software. OBS would be another such software, which is perhaps more polished. The bundled software outputs standard H.264 video, though I don't recall with container it uses. Might be .mov.

The elgato also saves as H.264 according to their website. Apparently in .mp4 files. So standard format with good properties for storage, although you should not expect to be able to manipulate it much with color grading.

Regarding interlaced footage, that topic is an entire nightmare to dig through and work with. While usually we think of video as a series of images and that is indeed how it is stored in modern times, interlaced footage saves only half the rows of pixels from each frame, allowing two frames to be recorded in the (physical) space of one. Which is used to effectively double the framerate that can be recorded or transmitted.

But this means some instance in the processing chain has extract the two separate frames from each one and reconstruct the missing half of each before display. And this is pretty heavy processing if the result is supposed to look decent. So you are essentially out of luck if the signal arrives as interlaced as digital. While there are a lot of powerful, free tools available to do this processing, it is by no means convinient. Apparently it is possible to use the Elgato device to capture with VirtualDub and deinterlace through that.

But I think to go through that pain you would need to be very unhappy with the recordings you get from just pointing the camera at the TV.

Analogue Media has a charme and certainly there's this interesting culture around it that you can dig into forever on the internet. But damn, it makes me appreciate digital so much each time I read anything about it


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 26, 2022)

Joules said:


> That is correct. USB is a digital interface, so the device you plug your cable into handles the conversion into a digital signal.
> 
> But that still needs to be converted to a meaningful video format and captured on a drive. Which is what your PC does with either the software included in the converter device, or some third party alternative.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for the detailed commentary. I didn't realize there was so much more to understand and it makes my head spin. It will be a few days but I'm going to play with recording the TV and then I'll comment further. 

Jack


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## PhilC (Jan 26, 2022)

Hi. I’ve done exactly the same recently with my Hi-8 cassettes and my 25 y.o Canon camcorder. I bought the Pinnacle Dazzle DVD recorder which connects simply my camera to my computer. Works very well and you can use a simple but powerful Pinnacle Studio app to edit your rushes before saving them in multiple formats. That device is worth approx $50 in the US and less if you can find a second hand one. I would much more recommend this option then filming a TV screen. Fast and simple solution 


Jack Douglas said:


> I have finally dug out my old Sony 8mm camcorder and a bunch of tapes of Peru and Machu Pichu done in 1988. They haven't been played in 30 years and seem to be decent for the time and my two youngest are in the footage as well as other family so now I'd really like to get them in digital form (without spending too much at least until I've assessed exactly what is actually worthy).
> 
> So, can it work for me to just set my R5 on a tripod in front of the 4K TV and record in HD? If so are there any things to try to do that would be helpfull? I wondered if I recorded in 1080/60 if that would improve the hand held shakiness aspect with multiple Hi-8


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 26, 2022)

PhilC said:


> Hi. I’ve done exactly the same recently with my Hi-8 cassettes and my 25 y.o Canon camcorder. I bought the Pinnacle Dazzle DVD recorder which connects simply my camera to my computer. Works very well and you can use a simple but powerful Pinnacle Studio app to edit your rushes before saving them in multiple formats. That device is worth approx $50 in the US and less if you can find a second hand one. I would much more recommend this option then filming a TV screen. Fast and simple solution


Thanks, I just Googled and it's $75 CAD on Amazon, which is within my budget for sure so I'll look into that one too.

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 26, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> Thanks, I just Googled and it's $75 CAD on Amazon, which is within my budget for sure so I'll look into that one too.
> 
> Jack


That's an outdated version - get it in 3 months. A newer version isn't available via Prime and it's $113 and has some pretty negative reviews so I don't think I'll go that route.


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## dcm (Jan 27, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> That's an outdated version - get it in 3 months. A newer version isn't available via Prime and it's $113 and has some pretty negative reviews so I don't think I'll go that route.


Wow, Pinnacle is still around. I tried a much earlier version of Dazzle back in 2006 and had some problems getting it to work on Windows, even on high end HP workstation PCs and laptops. I attribute that to the general state of the video hardware and software at that time. That's partly why I went the Sony direct to DVD route and finished burning DVDs in 2006. This also convinced me to move my home computing to Apple on a Mac Mini that year.

I just opened some up DVDs for yucks to verify when I recorded them. The native DVD VOB/Mpeg2 files play fine on my 2560x1440 monitor in fullscreen, but look better in their native resolution. They need conversion from VOB to other formats for editing in modern tools but there are many converters available, including free and open source. Some tools offer better upscaling than the available players so that's another consideration when you choose your recording/editing software. That would require more research which would have to wait until this semester is over.


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## Kuja (Jan 27, 2022)

If your aim is to preserve for posterity your precious family memories that are captured on those video tapes and do it the right way, with the maximum quality possible, there is a steep learning curve to it.

I'm not sure that the cheap USB video capturing dongles are the right way to go in the long run.

I would invest a little bit more of money ($199) in something like this (you also get a pro level DaVinci Resolve editing and color correction software for free):



Intensity Pro 4K | Blackmagic Design





Intensity Pro 4K – Workflow | Blackmagic Design




From my personal experience (capturing my collection of family VHS tapes) the H264 is a poor codec choice for analog video tapes.

The modern H264 codec is not very well optimised for the video noise/grain that is present in analog recordings and the captures could look awful and blotchy. With the same bitrate, even the ancient MPEG2 codec used in DVDs was way better than the H264.

I would capture the tapes in a codec that is not so lossy (or preferably lossles), do all the corrections and edits, and only then export to some standard consumer codec for sharing and viewing with your family.


You should visit this forum and maybe post the same question there:






VideoHelp Forum


This forum will help you with all your video and audio questions!




forum.videohelp.com


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## Kuja (Jan 27, 2022)

Capturing Video8 and Hi8 - guides


I am sure many people have Video8 or Hi8 tapes that they wish to capture a digital format. Over the last few months I have been researching options for




forum.videohelp.com


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 27, 2022)

Kuja said:


> If your aim is to preserve for posterity your precious family memories that are captured on those video tapes and do it the right way, with the maximum quality possible, there is a steep learning curve to it.
> 
> I'm not sure that the cheap USB video capturing dongles are the right way to go in the long run.
> 
> ...


I am hearing more that is convincing me that I need to understand the process better in order to make a more informed choice. I tend to be pretty focused on getting the highest quality if my photo editing is any indication - I tinker a lot with photos that I prize. Some of this video would be in that category for me, wanting it to be the best possible. Of course it'll never be great but...

So, I will stall a bit and visit the suggested site so that I can understand better and then probably spend more as suggested. I'm all for spending if it's worth it. Learning is always tedious but it's the best solution. Again, thanks to all!

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 27, 2022)

I like the idea of installing a card into my computer and I'm almost ready to visit my favourite computer store after linking to Intensity Pro. That's versatile and obviously better quality. It never occurred to me that this option existed.

My remaining question is, can I go directly to my own software (Vegas Pro 18) that I really need to learn. I fully expect a steep learning curve but I am wanting to do much more video now that I have the R5 and I also have quite a bit from my 1DX2 days. I'm fine once I get a grip but I tend to languish in uncertainty when I'm just getting started and that's worsening as I get older. I can't turn back the clock. 

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 27, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> I like the idea of installing a card into my computer and I'm almost ready to visit my favourite computer store after linking to Intensity Pro. That's versatile and obviously better quality. It never occurred to me that this option existed.
> 
> My remaining question is, can I go directly to my own software (Vegas Pro 18) that I really need to learn. I fully expect a steep learning curve but I am wanting to do much more video now that I have the R5 and I also have quite a bit from my 1DX2 days. I'm fine once I get a grip but I tend to languish in uncertainty when I'm just getting started and that's worsening as I get older. I can't turn back the clock.
> 
> Jack


$346 CAD on Amazon.ca My local store doesn't have anything that isn't just HDMI. I have no doubt it is what I need but could I make more use of it than just the camcorder to justify the cost? That's my present thought.


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## stevelee (Jan 27, 2022)

Does the 8mm player (or camera) have an S-video out? That should give better quality than the RCA video out, as I recall.


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## Kuja (Jan 27, 2022)

There is yet another possible (and maybe simpler) way of doing this.

Some of the later Sony Digital8 cameras were capable to play older analog video8 and Hi8 tapes.

They used DV codec and had firewire ports that enabled direct transfer of video to firewire equipped computers.

With a Digital8 camera that can play older video8 tapes and a computer that has firewire port, you can just use the camera to digitize your old tapes into DV format.









Why Digital8 Camcorders are Still Useful


Although the Digital8 video format is a dying breed, D8 camcorders are useful when it comes to converting analog 8mm video to digital




www.freevideoworkshop.com





Here are the lists of Digital8 cameras that have this feature:








List of Sony Digital8 Camcorders That Play 8mm and Hi8 Tapes


We have the most complete list of Digital8 camcorders that play 8mm and Hi8 tapes, as well as listing which camcorders cannot play back your 8mm / Hi8 tapes. Be careful to buy the right camcorder




transfervideotapes.com





So, you fiddle with the camera menus a little bit in order to configure the firewire output, connect the camera to the computer, pop the tape in the camera, hit the record button in the video capture software and that's it.

The capturing procedure is similar to the one described in this video:


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 27, 2022)

stevelee said:


> Does the 8mm player (or camera) have an S-video out? That should give better quality than the RCA video out, as I recall.


Unfortunately not. It's from 1988.

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 27, 2022)

Kuja said:


> There is yet another possible (and maybe simpler) way of doing this.
> 
> Some of the later Sony Digital8 cameras were capable to play older analog video8 and Hi8 tapes.
> 
> ...


Interesting but I wouldn't have a firewire port and I'm not sure I could find a Digital8.

Jack


Kuja said:


> There is yet another possible (and maybe simpler) way of doing this.
> 
> Some of the later Sony Digital8 cameras were capable to play older analog video8 and Hi8 tapes.
> 
> ...


A card is only $17 but the camera would be a problem for me. Kijiji here usually has everything used and there is not one in Alberta.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Jan 28, 2022)

Little did I know that this topic is a challenging one that seems to have problems mentioned for virtually every product that's available. Some seem to relate more to Win 10. Due to mental fatigue I will abandon this activity for a few days.  It was the Video Forum that really contributed to the fatigue. 

Jack


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## Joules (Jan 28, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> Little did I know that this topic is a challenging one that seems to have problems mentioned for virtually every product that's available. Some seem to relate more to Win 10. Due to mental fatigue I will abandon this activity for a few days.  It was the Video Forum that really contributed to the fatigue.
> 
> Jack


I personally had considered spending the time and money to do this stuff right, but as it is video I didn't do it. I don't display any video on online platforms, so it is only for friends and family. And they don't really care about the quality, and will only rarely if ever look at a given video twice.

As for these old tapes, they contain valuable memories no doubt and therefore maybe should be treated with more respect. But from my experience, when I showed the family the old recordings, the joy of recalling them came less from watching the videos themselves and more from discussions about the past that were sparked by the footage. The memories of the people filling in the missing pixels in the footage, so to speak.

That's not to say that it's a waste to dig through the subject and do it justice. After all, if that approach of prioritising ease of use and emotional content over technical excellence, we would soon all be taking stills exclusively with smartphones.

This area is a perfect example of the 80 20 principle. You'll get 80 % of the way to decent results with 20 % effort. Just a cheap dongle and the bundled software should give results that can be played back on a digital device and will be recognizeable for those who know roughly what and who is on display in a given scene. Enough to get them thinking and talking about the olden times.

If you want to go the rest of the way towards great results the road becomes much steeper, both in terms of financial and also time commitment. And as with all these things, each step will have diminishing returns.

That's what I meant with my closing statement about liking digital more each time I read about analogue. It all has this charm and I have great respect for those who worked with it before my time and still keep the knowledge about how to do it properly around. But man, treating every thing as a sequence of 1s and 0s sure has its upsides.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 28, 2022)

Joules said:


> I personally had considered spending the time and money to do this stuff right, but as it is video I didn't do it. I don't display any video on online platforms, so it is only for friends and family. And they don't really care about the quality, and will only rarely if ever look at a given video twice.
> 
> As for these old tapes, they contain valuable memories no doubt and therefore maybe should be treated with more respect. But from my experience, when I showed the family the old recordings, the joy of recalling them came less from watching the videos themselves and more from discussions about the past that were sparked by the footage. The memories of the people filling in the missing pixels in the footage, so to speak.
> 
> ...


80/20 is applicable in many different contexts. How I remember expecting miracles when I was comparing my the EF 70-300 to the dream 300 2.8 II lens. There were numerous obvious and subtle benefits but based on % price to % improvement it was an eye opener. As the years rolled along and I became a better photographer of course I appreciated the quality glass and just kind of forgot about the cost. I used that lens a lot - how much would I use a pricey analog - digital converter and as stated, who would care about the difference? Me!! Unfortunately that's my problem. Still you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and my camcorder footage is a sows ear. 

Jack


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## shire_guy (Jan 28, 2022)

Joules said:


> I personally had considered spending the time and money to do this stuff right, but as it is video I didn't do it. I don't display any video on online platforms, so it is only for friends and family. And they don't really care about the quality, and will only rarely if ever look at a given video twice.



When I digitized my Video 8 tapes recently I was also concerned about how the quality of the output of >20yr old tapes would look especially, on modern TV screens. In the end it didn't really matter that much. The kids are just happy that I had future proofed family memories and were more than happy to view the videos on their iPhones - maybe twice. Of the videos I sent of to our friends I would say they were viewed as a one off thing and provoked a bit of light hearted discussion on aging (mainly hair loss).

I guess if you have the knowledge to do an A1 job that's great, but it's also about preserving the memories.


----------



## Joules (Jan 28, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> Unfortunately that's my problem. Still you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and my camcorder footage is a sows ear.


I don't want to push you to either direction, just curious:

Do you know that for a fact though? I mean, with analogue, each device in the chain has an impact on quality. The device reading the tapes, the cables themselves and their type in particular, the device interpreting and potentially deinterlacing the signal, the actual screen... As the signal is analoge, each of these components has a chance to degrade the signal if it is made out of cheap materials, poorly shielded against electronic interference, poorly quality controlled, and so on. And of course all of these aspects of a device are not either good or bad, but exist on a spectrum. Meaning there is often room for improvement, even if just minute one.

Certainly the type of cable can make a huge difference.

I'm in my mid twenties, so part of one of the last generations to at least partially grow up with the struggle of analogue.

Audio cassettes that you had to flip over to hear the full content, or that occasionally got turned into tape salad by the playback device. Recording a TV show on a VHS tape only to notice afterwards that one had overwritten some other, valuable previous recordings. The internet going out if somebody had to use the phone. The wonders of Windows 95 and games like GTA 2 or Starcraft that didn't use pixel art because the developers liked the style, but because it was the state of the art tech.

In particular I recall how massively better my PlayStation 2 games looked when I switched from the regular included cable to one where the red, green and blue video channels are not transferred on a single cable like with RCA, but rather have each of them get their separate link. It made a day and night difference even on the medium sized CRT I had at the time, and even more later when I got my first 'flat' screen, which at 32" really showed a lot more detail.

I don't know if the difference is as big as that when using S Video instead. Somebody with more hands on experience would have to comment on that.

But it might be hasty to blame the footage on the tape itself for insufficient quality when displayed on a screen.


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## Kuja (Jan 28, 2022)

Yes, the quality of the gear and cabling can largely influence the final result.

In my VHS digititizing chain I have used the best machines and cables that I could get.
I have used a high quality Panasonic HiFi stereo SVHS VCR (HiFi stereo was not needed per se, but the SVHS capability was important) that has some advanced "3D" digital noise reduction circuitry and filtering.
I have connected it (using high quality *S-video* and audio cables) to a Panasonic HDD/DVD recorder, that was used solely as a passtrough device because it has a TBC (time base corrector), in order to stabilize the video that otherwise would jump and wiggle.
Then, the S-video output from the HDD/DVD recorder was connected to the S-video input of a Canopus ADVC100 converter that was connected with a firewire cable to my old MacMini (the late 2012 version, the last one that still had the firewire port). ADVC100 has an important "locked audio" feature, so the audio/video syncronization can not drift apart during the longer recordings.

Yes, it could have been done even better, with a better pro grade equipment, that could provide further picture enhancements and tweaking of sharpness, colors, contrast, etc, using a completely lossless codec instead of DV, but, at the end, I'm very happy with the results as they are.

Here is the video explaining the importance of TBC (the author even used the newer version of the Canopus device that I've used in my process):


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 28, 2022)

shire_guy said:


> When I digitized my Video 8 tapes recently I was also concerned about how the quality of the output of >20yr old tapes would look especially, on modern TV screens. In the end it didn't really matter that much. The kids are just happy that I had future proofed family memories and were more than happy to view the videos on their iPhones - maybe twice. Of the videos I sent of to our friends I would say they were viewed as a one off thing and provoked a bit of light hearted discussion on aging (mainly hair loss).
> 
> I guess if you have the knowledge to do an A1 job that's great, but it's also about preserving the memories.


I agree 100% but I really have to fight against my personality! 

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 28, 2022)

Kuja said:


> Yes, the quality of the gear and cabling can largely influence the final result.
> 
> In my VHS digititizing chain I have used the best machines and cables that I could get.
> I have used a high quality Panasonic HiFi stereo SVHS VCR (HiFi stereo was not needed per se, but the SVHS capability was important) that has some advanced "3D" digital noise reduction circuitry and filtering.
> ...


Kuja, I'm more or less isolated without close friends that understand any of this. There was a time when I instructed electronics students in a technical college and could get answers to virtually anything just by mentioning what I was trying to do, either from students or colleagues. Your process sounds great but it's not going to be feasible for me.

What tends to happen when you're into the your senior years is that there has been a gradual disconnect from what's going on that is higher tech and when you try to reconnect there is a steep learning curve. Young people are driven and fascinated by the tech and also want to impress friends or peers - I've been there long ago. Now it's just, please I need to get this done well ASAP and I'm not dreaming of a career in Video. I have trouble enough keeping up with the photography tech and even just learning to use a modern camera to its full potential is a challenge. 

At this point I now at least understand superficially what is going on and what the challenges are but I haven't been able to pull the trigger on a product due to uncertainty (probably not justifiable). Not sure if this is correct but so far I don't detect that someone has just now completed this process with X product using Win 10. Some of the suggested hardware is pretty dated such that Win 10 isn't even mentioned etc. and when Win 10 is mention in reviews it's often in a complaints context.

Jack


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## stevelee (Jan 28, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> I agree 100% but I really have to fight against my personality!
> 
> Jack


As for the 80%-20% rule, my suspicion is that most of that 20% is not there to get. You may simulate some of it in post. De-interlacing will be part of the process anyway, and the quality of that will depend upon the algorithm more than the equipment. At the risk of rambling on (so you are warned you may not want to bother reading further), I will mention some of my analogous projects, anticipated or competed.

Somewhere in my garage is a Beta tape copy of a video I and two other guys made in 1984 for a church celebration. It dealt with the history of Methodist from its founding through the twelve churches in the northern part of the county from Colonial days, and of that church up to the then present. The original and all of the VHS copies have been lost, as far as I know. The other two guys who worked on it are deceased, as are all the older people in the congregation who were interviewed on camera in the closing third. Somewhere in my garage is also a Beta player that hasn’t been out of its box for at least 25 years. I would like to see the video myself, and I’m sure it would mean a lot to the descendants of all the others involved. If I find the tape and the player, I don’t know what I will try in terms of risk or expense.

Several years ago a neighbor had her 90th birthday. The University of Illinois made 78rpm recordings of her senior voice recital and a scene from Aida and a Brahms solo. For my present, I borrowed the records and digitized them and then spent the whole summer working with the files. I bought a stylus just for that groove size. The records were in terrible shape. One disc looked like it had acne. I was surprised that the stylus would track it. I used two Macs simultaneously and four different pieces of software. I was obsessing over getting rid of as much noise as possible while losing no actual signal and trying to reproduce original tonal balance. I realized that I could spend the rest of my life cleaning it up, but fortunately the birthday deadline made me call it quits. I made CDs for her and each of her four children. I was told that following the big birthday party, the family headed out to the place on the lake that belongs to the son who was in from Australia. They decided to listen to the CD. It was quite an emotional experience, I was told. The recordings were from before anyone except had been born or even thought of. “Grandma, we didn’t know you could sing that amazingly well!” I had gone pretty far into that final 20%, more so than I thought possible when I started out. That probably didn’t matter to anyone but me.

In 2000 a friend from college days and I visited Helsinki, St. Petersburg, Budapest, and Prague. I took color slides. In 2020 I digitized some of the slides. They had not been stored in ideal conditions. Mostly the green layer had faded, so they have a prominent magenta cast. After much doctoring in Photoshop, I posted them on my web site, where I have pictures from my main trips from then through the present. I decided as a 20th anniversary keepsake, I would do a book. So I went to the book module in Lightroom and decided to do even more cleanup. I found the old split toning worked great, especially for getting the magenta cast out of pavement without messing anything else up. I spent more time cleaning up dust etc. in the sky, thinking they might show up more in print than they do on the web. I had Blurb print two copies and sent one to my friend. I purposely chose to undercorrect slightly the color balances, so they retain a bit of charm of old slides. Perhaps beyond that, there might have been more harm than good. The book turned out well. I got into the 20%, maybe half of it. There again the quality level was to suit me and really no one else. There are morals to each of these stories, but probably not worth plowing through them, I admit. Still of value to me to think back through.


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## Kuja (Jan 28, 2022)

Maybe the simplest way that would not include computer at all, would be to use a standalone HDD/DVD recorder.

Just connect the video/audio cables from your camera to the inputs of the recorder and thats it.

On the recoders with the internal HDD you can edit your recordings and then "burn" the edited versions to recordable DVD-Rs.

If you need the files on your computer, you can "rip" the content of those DVDs.

I used to burn the files to rewriteable DVD-RWs on my HDD/DVD recorder, transfer them to my computer, erase the DVD-RWs, burn the next batch of videos and so on, thus saving the planet from plastic DVDs. 

Maybe you could try to find a secondhand HDD/DVD recorder in a good working order?

Something like this:


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 28, 2022)

stevelee said:


> As for the 80%-20% rule, my suspicion is that most of that 20% is not there to get. You may simulate some of it in post. De-interlacing will be part of the process anyway, and the quality of that will depend upon the algorithm more than the equipment. At the risk of rambling on (so you are warned you may not want to bother reading further), I will mention some of my analogous projects, anticipated or competed.
> 
> Somewhere in my garage is a Beta tape copy of a video I and two other guys made in 1984 for a church celebration. It dealt with the history of Methodist from its founding through the twelve churches in the northern part of the county from Colonial days, and of that church up to the then present. The original and all of the VHS copies have been lost, as far as I know. The other two guys who worked on it are deceased, as are all the older people in the congregation who were interviewed on camera in the closing third. Somewhere in my garage is also a Beta player that hasn’t been out of its box for at least 25 years. I would like to see the video myself, and I’m sure it would mean a lot to the descendants of all the others involved. If I find the tape and the player, I don’t know what I will try in terms of risk or expense.
> 
> ...


I can relate to all you say. In the end it is more for ones own personal satisfaction, especially when you've been taught, do all to the best of your ability. Both my parents were kind loving people. My mother was a "do it right" while my father was a "good enough" and you can guess who was dominant raising me.  

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 28, 2022)

Kuja said:


> Maybe the simplest way that would not include computer at all, would be to use a standalone HDD/DVD recorder.
> 
> Just connect the video/audio cables from your camera to the inputs of the recorder and thats it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this suggestion. There are some for sale used based on a quick search of Kijiji but I'll have to now wrap my head around this new idea. Prices were not that high either.

Jack


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## stevelee (Jan 28, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> Thanks for this suggestion. There are some for sale used based on a quick search of Kijiji but I'll have to now wrap my head around this new idea. Prices were not that high either.
> 
> Jack


If you need to do substantial editing, how would that work? You just make DVDs, and do a lot of fast forwarding when you show it to people?


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## Kuja (Jan 28, 2022)

stevelee said:


> If you need to do substantial editing, how would that work? You just make DVDs, and do a lot of fast forwarding when you show it to people?


Most HDD/DVD recorders have basic editing/trimming capabilities before burning the final DVDs.


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## Kuja (Jan 28, 2022)

...Or you can copy the files from DVDs to a computer and use a simple and free program like Avidemux for editing and trimming.


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## shire_guy (Jan 28, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> I agree 100% but I really have to fight against my personality!
> 
> Jack



I understand your approach completely. I spent a lot of time 'editing' my tapes (benefit of being in lock-down) and I guess in hindsight I got more personal satisfaction then kudos.



Jack Douglas said:


> Not sure if this is correct but so far I don't detect that someone has just now completed this process with X product using Win 10. Some of the suggested hardware is pretty dated such that Win 10 isn't even mentioned etc. and when Win 10 is mention in reviews it's often in a complaints context.
> 
> Jack



Not sure if this is meant to be a rhetorical question but I did my conversions in Sept 21 using Windows 10 on a DELL computer (16gb RAM). 

For the approach I took, I did think that from the write ups that Elgato Video Capture was a good solution but looking back it was expensive and not in stock. I ended up buying from an on-line tech store that I had dealt with before. Obviously I can't guarantee anything but I used the Star Tech USB Video Capture Cable - S-Video or Composite (Part Id # SVID2USB232). The downside of this solution was the recording/editing software (Movavi) supplied used a file type (.mkv) that I could not open in the free version of DaVinci Resolve that I intended to use. I couldn't see that DaVinci would allow recording so that put paid to that idea. Also the Movavi software was Version 11, I think, and for some reason I updated to the current version which was Movavi Video Editor Plus 21.4.0. I can't recall the installation process for the hardware but I have attached a couple of pages from the manual. I can't give much feedback on the editing software due to my inexperience but it had a lot more features then I used but understand you have already have paid software. In total (incl. software upgrade) it would cost A$125 today.

Not saying this is the best approach for you but I was happy I got it to work. I have had a couple of failures probably about 15 yrs ago. I bought an expensive converter the size of a brick that just didn't work on my PC and bought a DVD recorder but couldn't get the output I wanted - maybe skill was lacking. Reading this blog I am wondering if I should have used a better cable but I guess I would always be limited by the cables on the converter. Anyway treat this as more info to help you to move forward to find the solution you want.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 29, 2022)

shire_guy said:


> I understand your approach completely. I spent a lot of time 'editing' my tapes (benefit of being in lock-down) and I guess in hindsight I got more personal satisfaction then kudos.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks I appreciate your help. I've looked at so many articles and comments that I'm not sure if anything I say is correct or accurate (overload). Sorry. 

A friend tells me that he has a older card that he is going to try in his Win 10 computer and if he can get it working he'll pass it to me. So I'll wait for now.

Jack


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## Kuja (Jan 29, 2022)

Just remember that, depending of the conditions of your tapes and your camcorder, you still might need a time base corrector.
Vast majority of computer video capture cards don't have the TBC included.
I mean, if the tapes are not in the perfect condition the use of TBC is mandatory, and if they are ok, the TBC will still significantly improve the quality of digitizing, as in the Youtube video I've posted earlier.

Here is the more extreme example, the capturing of this tape without the TBC would be impossible:







More examples...







I looked at the Kijiji site, there are people who are even renting Sony Digital8 camcorders, exactly for the purpose of digitizing old tapes:









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Digital8 camcorders have the TBC already included, so no problems there.

Maybe you could find or borrow some older computer or laptop with the firewire input?
Lots of them might be lying in the closets unused. I have two of them that I haven't turned on for years, but unfortunately we are living on different continents. 
The firewire output from the Digital8 camcorder, would give you the same quality I got with my much more complicated setup.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 29, 2022)

Kuja said:


> Just remember that, depending of the conditions of your tapes and your camcorder, you still might need a time base corrector.
> Vast majority of computer video capture cards don't have the TBC included.
> I mean, if the tapes are not in the perfect condition the use of TBC is mandatory, and if they are ok, the TBC will still significantly improve the quality of digitizing, as in the Youtube video I've posted earlier.
> 
> ...


My good friend said, oh no I threw out that very camcorder last year. Now he's the one who is trying to get the computer capture card going for me. We'll see. Thanks very much for all the information!

Jack


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## josephandrews222 (Jan 31, 2022)

This very thread is why I enjoy my visits to this site--and with the pandemic I can occupy my brain a bit reading and learning about stuff I care about...once in a while I can make a contribution myself.

*In 1983 I purchased a Commodore 64 computer and monitor.

*In 1985 I purchased a Toshiba Beta Hi Fi VCR:
http://www.betamaxcollectors.com/toshibabetavcrmodelv-s443.html

*In June 1986 I bought a *Sony CCD-V8AF-E* (8mm camcorder): _Camcorder A_
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sony_CCD-V8AF_camcorder-CnAM_43583-IMG_5358-gradient.jpg

Our oldest daughter was born in July 1986...and with video from Camcorder A, I used the Commodore computer/monitor combination to build graphic transitions and constructed a 90 minute video to send to the grandparents. We kept the original Beta tape...long after the Toshiba Beta VCR shot craps.

*Sometime near the turn of the century I bought this: *Canon ES6500V* (Hi8 camcorder): _Camcorder B_
https://global.canon/en/c-museum/product/8mmvc422.html

Camcorder A purchased in 1986 had gotten a bit finicky as far as playing 8mm tapes was concerned...and the 'Hi8' format used by the ES6500V (Camcorder B) promised better video but also was backwards-compatible with the tapes used by the Camcorder A.

*Then a couple of years later I bought this (smaller and digital): *Canon Elura 40MC* (MiniDV camcorder): _Camcorder C_
https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...mcorders/support-minidv-camcorders/elura-40mc

*Camcorder C too began to act up, necessitating the purchase of yet another Canon camcorder in 2008: *Canon Vixia HF100* (SD card-recording camcorder with HDMI out): _Camcorder D_.
https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...upport-high-definition-camcorders/vixia-hf100

The recordings from Camcorders A & B (8mm tapes) and Camcorder C (MiniDV tapes) were stored in a box...where they resided, along with the Beta tape made in 1986 documenting the first few days of our first daughter's life, some for literally decades.

I knew they needed to be digitized. But the activation energy for projects like that, to me, can be significant...

Then in 2016, my father-in-law died...the funeral was a few days after a previously-scheduled engagement that my wife had long looked forward to. The drive was long (several hours) and naturally talk of Grandpa Bob and his visits with our own children was one of the more pleasant discussion topics while in the car.

In particular, I had a recollection of one specific 10-15 minute video recorded just days after our oldest daughter was born, when Bob and his wife (my wife's parents) drove from IL to NY to visit their first grandchild. The memory made my wife joyful.

That was the kick in the pants I needed to get busy.

It is fun to read Jack Douglas wrestle with what I wrestled with a few years ago. I know he'll make it work.

The key thought is simply to get the analog material into your computer...to digitize it all.

As a previous poster in this thread noted, some camcorders of a certain vintage have the ability to accept an analog video and audio signal from another device (in our case, an 8mm camcorder) and digitize that analog signal and pass it along via Firewire (IEEE 1394) to a computer that has a Firewire port.

Camcorder C above fills the bill; and the Dell XPS 420 desktop computer I'm writing on now (now 13 years old) has the required Firewire port.

Software is needed to capture what comes into the computer via the Firewire port: *WinDV* freeware works great and is what I used.
https://www.videohelp.com/software/WinDV

The video (including audio) files that WinDV generates are .avi files.

Once you have the .avi files you're good to go.

The very best way to massage .avi files (and most video that I deal with) is *Handbrake *(freeware)...the learning curve isn't really that steep and I always learn something along the way.
https://handbrake.fr/downloads.php

=====

After getting up-and-running, it was about ten days worth of work to get the 30-40 tapes digitized. I didn't do much editing along the way--that's a whole 'nother kind of effort that requires a different mindset. But I did break up many of the tapes into the separate recordings that were present on each tape.

The beta tape from 1986 proved problematic (I had nothing to play it on and the local shop in my town couldn't play it either...I was worried they would damage it!)--so I sent it off to a company in Atlanta GA who charged 25 bucks or so to digitize it. The result was great.

=====

Key to this sort of project (at least to me) is figuring out how to get the files to family members in a way that they will be able to watch them on their own big screen TVs (not a smallish computer screen). Most folks don't have a home theater computer!

The *Sony PS3/PS4* is a great way to accomplish this; the video files (in the proper format, made possible via Handbrake) are easily installed on the hard disk within the Sony device or can be copied to an appropriately-formatted external hard disk that is connected via USB. The Sony device sort of serves as a bridge between computers and standard televisions that people watch every day.

So both of our daughters have hours and hours of these videos on their Sony devices...and the results are much appreciated...particularly by boyfriends (  ).

=====

Along the same lines, I've made it my business to convert our collection of DVDs, BluRays and CDs into files that everyone can access if they wish. With the advent of streaming services and Apple Music etc, though, I think my efforts here have not been appreciated all that much.

On the other hand, I'm probably 80% finished organizing our digital jpegs and printed snapshots between the mid-1990s and today...with snapshots from the 1980s (some earlier) and 1990s yet to be digitized.

I do not have the negatives organized in any meaningful way...what I purchased to enable somewhat rapid digitization of the prints (a few of which are in albums) is the Epson FastFoto FF 680W.
https://www.dpreview.com/news/23436...personal-photo-scanner-now-available#comments
I have a decent 'workflow' with the Epson that enables scanning of hundreds of images per session; the quality of the scans is good enough my purposes.

And the software used to organize and post online [password protected] is something called jAlbum.
https://jalbum.net/en/

...currently at 31K images and counting.

Maybe someone will find this useful.

Me? I now have a place that includes a list of our camcorder purchases...and a reminder that literally a couple dozen of our Canon cameras (film, compact digital, and dSLR as well as mirrorless) are (fingers-crossed emoji) much more reliable than Canon's camcorders! Nearly all of the cameras still work!!

=====

A good link for inexpensive digitizing hardware and some advice if you don't own 'Camcorder C' (or one like it):

https://www.tomsguide.com/how-to/digitize-vhs-tapes

Thanks for reading.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 31, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> Thanks, that's one more idea. Yes, RCA video out.


I have a similar setup that I used for some VHS to digital recently. It was made by Diamond. The software is a headache and getting the right settings requires experimenting.

If I were doing it again, I'd try one of the Clear Click devices. They do not require a PC, just connect video source and record to thumb drive. As with every product on earth, there are some annoyances I've noted in the reviews.

I doubt if one costs more than having the conversion done and when you are finished, you can sell it or keep it for a future need. They are more expensive than a Elgato or similar device but people seem to love them.

They make 3 models, the low end one to a 4K model. If just copying old camcorder ot vhs tapes, the base model works. If you want to stream from a digital camera, the high end will work with OBS on your computer to stream 4K from a 4K video camera. My R5 has software to do that, so no need for a device like this.









Video2Digital® Converter 2.0 (Second Generation) | Capture Video From VCR's, VHS Tapes, Hi8, Camcorder, DVD, & Gaming Systems - No Computer Required


Introducing the ClearClick Video2Digital Converter 2.0 (Second Generation).Need to turn that box of old video tapes or camcorder tapes that's sitting in your closet or basement into digital format?With the ClearClick Video To Digital Converter 2.0, you can transfer your videos to digital format...




www.clearclick.tech


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 31, 2022)

josephandrews222 said:


> This very thread is why I enjoy my visits to this site--and with the pandemic I can occupy my brain a bit reading and learning about stuff I care about...once in a while I can make a contribution myself.
> 
> *In 1983 I purchased a Commodore 64 computer and monitor.
> 
> ...


Wow, it makes me a little tired reading the challenges but it puts hope in my heart. My fiend's throwaway would have been my lifesaver and he knew and was, like, oh no I threw out exactly what you needed and it had sat for ages and then I said I'll never use this and... I'm still waiting on him regarding the old computer capture card. 

Thanks for writing this as it is an inspiration. My two oldest were 9 and 6 when we were in Machu Pichu and there is the only existing footage of my wife's mother holding their hands as we wandered through an ancient monastery in Arequipa, etc. etc. The video 8 and my Canon F1 were over my shoulders as I climbed way up where I was not supposed to go. So, this means a lot to me. The tapes and negatives need to be addressed ASAP, exactly as you describe. I would like to PM you as I move forward if you don't mind.

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 31, 2022)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I have a similar setup that I used for some VHS to digital recently. It was made by Diamond. The software is a headache and getting the right settings requires experimenting.
> 
> If I were doing it again, I'd try one of the Clear Click devices. They do not require a PC, just connect video source and record to thumb drive. As with every product on earth, there are some annoyances I've noted in the reviews.
> 
> ...


It's $230 CAD Amazon but that is no problem as long as it does a good job. So that's another option I'll consider. Thanks.

Jack


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## Joules (Feb 6, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> It's $230 CAD Amazon but that is no problem as long as it does a good job. So that's another option I'll consider. Thanks.
> 
> Jack


I don't know if you stumbled across it yet, but I found this video quite nice for comparing the Click vs the Elgato: 




To me, the Elgato gives a more appropriate view of the original footage.

Also, I want to thank you for bringing up the topic. It gave me the push needed to getting back into digitizing my remaining VHS tapes.

Although it also did rekindle the same question of quality against investment that you struggled with. Dissatisfied with the information on the internet, I just decided to buy the Elgato and also get myself an S-Video adapter and cable, since my VCR has a scart output and I believed it might be capable of S-Video output perhaps.

The purchase of the Elgato Video Grabber is a definite upgrade over my previous CSL Video Grabber USB device. It applies less oversharpening and less saturation, but this leads to a far more natural image in my eyes. It also seems to suppress artifacts better.

This is over a composite connection.

The S-Video connection purchase seems to have been a waste of money so far. I actually do get a picture, but it shows a constant pattern of diagonal across the image. From what I gather, this is to be expected when using an output device that does not actually support this output type.

So I asked a few older relatives if they perhaps still have some devices around to play back VHS, so that I could compare them to mine and perhaps one would support S-Video. But it looks like most have eliminated their dated hardware.

I'm somewhat busy currently, but I'll post some side by side pictures of my results once I get to it.


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## MythPlayer (Feb 6, 2022)

stevelee said:


> Does the 8mm player (or camera) have an S-video out? That should give better quality than the RCA video out, as I recall.


Not all, Only Hi8 or Digital8 camera/VCR does have S-video Out


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## Jack Douglas (Feb 6, 2022)

Joules said:


> I don't know if you stumbled across it yet, but I found this video quite nice for comparing the Click vs the Elgato:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The "somewhat busy" statement resonates with me. At this moment I'm still waiting on my friend for feedback on whether he has a computer card for me that will work, so I haven't moved on any purchase. Thanks for added information that I will run over in due course. Meanwhile I'm fomenting over whether I would be wasting my precious few dollars with this negative film copier since that's the other digitizing I need to do.






Plustek OpticFilm 8200i AI - 35mm Film & Slides Scanner. IT 8 Calibration Target + SilverFast Ai Studio 8.8, 7200 dpi Resolution 64Bit HDRi, Mac/PC : Amazon.ca: Office Products


Plustek OpticFilm 8200i AI - 35mm Film & Slides Scanner. IT 8 Calibration Target + SilverFast Ai Studio 8.8, 7200 dpi Resolution 64Bit HDRi, Mac/PC : Amazon.ca: Office Products



www.amazon.ca





Jack


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## Kuja (Feb 8, 2022)

Maybe you don't have to spend that much money, and "scan" your slides or negatives with your R5 instead?

For my 35mm film "scans" I'm using a cheap East German Pentacon slide copier with an EOS EF to m42 adapter,
together with a Pentax 100mm macro lens at F8 (reverse mounted for better correction).
A Canon MT-24EX flash is used for back lighting with a manual power setting.
The Camera is 5Ds, I shoot RAW, process in DxO or Capture One RAW converters, and the results are outstanding, much better than many scanners I've tried, and comparable to higher end devices.

The only downside is that if you work with color negatives, the process of getting good colors in RAW conversion software as Capture One or DxO is not automated as in specialized scanner software.
There is a learninig curve, but when you understand the process and do it right, the results can be even better than the automated scanning software.

This is the unit (I have a M42 vesion), there are plenty of them on eBay:







And of course there are many other brands too, you just have to use a correct mount adapter for your Canon.

Pentax:






Olympus:






Minolta:


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## Kuja (Feb 8, 2022)

Just type in Google "DSLR scanning" or "DSLR film scanning" and you'll get many useful links.









DSLR Film Scanning: The Secret to Perfect Color Negatives


Get incredible Color & Tone from your Film Negatives with this DSLR Film Scanning guide. FREE In-Depth Video, Equipment Guide & Comparisons.



natephotographic.com


















Let's see your DSLR film scanning setup!


Ok, let’s see it! Pictures and/or descriptions of your current DSLR Scanning setup. Just reply to share it! (Bonus points for sharing a few conversions using your setup!)




forums.negativelabpro.com





...etc.


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## Jack Douglas (Feb 8, 2022)

Kuja said:


> Just type in Google "DSLR scanning" or "DSLR film scanning" and you'll get many useful links.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can see clearly that I've taken the thread into another topic, an intensive one that is already being discussed elsewhere. That wasn't my intention but I certainly appreciate the last couple posts because they are very helpful and contain a more basic explanation that is more at my level. 

What I was hoping to avoid was another significant project and its learning curve because I never catch up on old projects or worse, necessary repairs etc. Acreage living brings with it some extra jobs as well.

I can easily understand that the results going down this path would be superior and perhaps even for somewhat less that the $650 CAD but without getting heavily into the topic would I end up with a nightmare - that's the question and what I'm leery about. I had previously read a bit on another thread and said to myself, this is presently going over my head.

OK, I have the R5 and maybe a lens - would my EF24-70 when set to 70mm in macro mode work? That would be my first question. Next would be the process of going to a positive using ON1, which I've never investigated, assuming it's possible. No LR or PS in my future at my age. Beyond that, what I would need is Kuja as my next door neighbour! 

A quick search on Kijiji here yields zero, so I'd be dealing from afar, which means potentially getting ripped off since I'm pretty ignorant on this topic.

So that's where I'm at on negative scanning.

The older Hauppauge unit digitized two 120 8mm cassettes and on the third I've run into a sync type issue. Normal 1 second with brief sound, stationary pic for 4 seconds, and this repeats and never corrects (I don't think). Once after rebooting my computer it seemed for a while to correct. It's time consuming rewinding tape and finding the location and retrying and so I bogged down and temporarily did other jobs. I had a head cleaning tape that I ran through and it might have helped a little but I don't think so. Otherwise, I was just trying "shot in the dark" things without success.

Jack


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## stevelee (Feb 8, 2022)

I have tried using my iPad as a lightbox and just laying slides on it. The pictures I took with my 100mm macro lens were not bad at all, but still less handy than using my slide scanner.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 8, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> Thanks for this suggestion. There are some for sale used based on a quick search of Kijiji but I'll have to now wrap my head around this new idea. Prices were not that high either.
> 
> Jack


I've had a couple of the Panasonic units, both died. They wanted DVD Ram disks. By coincidence, I cleaned out my closet and have three five packs of new DVD Ram disks next to me, trying to figure out what to do with them. The Recorders would also do certain writable DVD's, I think +R's or something like that.

I digitized all of my old home movies, early Beta and VHSC, super VHSC stuff years ago. I could do better now, I'm sure, but the time involved and getting players that do a good job is the issue. I used to have the Panasonic high end players, but I don't think they work any longer. I have an old Beta player that is likely defunct. I have a good Super 8 projector and one of the cheap optical adapters to use a camcorder to copy 8MM. I have a old DVR camcorder that may still work. It had a digital out so I could copy directly to a computer file.

I'm not even certain where the DVD's are stored much less the originals.


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## Jack Douglas (Feb 8, 2022)

Kuja, that link is very helpful, thanks.

Jack


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 8, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> It's $230 CAD Amazon but that is no problem as long as it does a good job. So that's another option I'll consider. Thanks.
> 
> Jack


Thats pretty excessive. I did not think the exchange rate was that high. Then, they tack on shipping and import fees. I sell on Amazon and can setup to sell to other countries for a stiff fee. Apparently, that is what is happening, all those fees double the price. Diamond sells what appears to be the same unit here for $120.



Amazon.com


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## Kuja (Feb 8, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> The older Hauppauge unit digitized two 120 8mm cassettes and on the third I've run into a sync type issue. Normal 1 second with brief sound, stationary pic for 4 seconds, and this repeats and never corrects (I don't think).


This looks like a problem that could be solved with the use of a time base corrector (TBC) that I have mentioned earlier.
Without the TBC, any video discontinuity (due to tape imperfections, etc.) could bring digitizing process to a halt.

Majority of Digital8 cameras with firewire outputs and DVD/HDD recorders have the TBCs inside them.

Cheaper/amateur standalone video capture devices and video caputre PC cards almost certainly do not, so you could run into the same problem again if you decide to go this route.


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## Kuja (Feb 8, 2022)

When I digitized my VHS collection, I have used a DVD/HDD recorder as a TBC passtrough device.

Whithout it, my first trial captures were somewhat jerky, blurry and wavy, and the smallest tape problems would freeze the digitizing process.


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## Jack Douglas (Feb 9, 2022)

Well.... now I have no camcorder to play the tapes on - it's dead and it smells.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 13, 2022)

Kuja said:


> When I digitized my VHS collection, I have used a DVD/HDD recorder as a TBC passtrough device.
> 
> Whithout it, my first trial captures were somewhat jerky, blurry and wavy, and the smallest tape problems would freeze the digitizing process.


I'm sure a TBC would help images. Old players seem to struggle just playing back the old tapes. I tried 3 of them before I found one that did not jerk or tear images . I'm hot sure if my old Sony DV camcorder would play back Hi 8 tapes, I never have had any. I have lots of old SVHS tapes, I'm not sure if I have a working SVHS player, the power supply died in one of my two Panasonic AG series SVHS players.


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## Jack Douglas (Feb 13, 2022)

Update: I bought a Sharp Viewcam that happened to show up just when my Sony died so I'm $35 poorer but at least back to copying. It has been working very close to as well and maybe at time a touch better than my Sony, but still has the TBC issues sometimes, grr, relative to the computer digitizer. 

After the TBC commentary I got to wondering if the Video recorder we bought my daughter long ago would have analog input and it does. It's a Canon D50A and now I'm wondering if it would be better to borrow/inherit that and record to dvd and then transfer to the computer. It's in Calgary, I'm Edmonton area so it isn't easy to try at this moment. I never imagined when I started this thread that weeks later it would still be running but here I am the advice has been very appreciated!

Jack


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## Rocky (Feb 13, 2022)

I am going to share my experience of digitizing video here.
I have a Panasonic Mini DV camcorder ( Model # PV-DG250, about 16 years old). Its analog to digital converter can be used as a stand alone A/D coverter without running the DV tape. I can just connect the analog input ( audio and video) from another source( 8mm, VHS etc) to the camcorder and the digital output to the computer , run the 8mm or VHS tape. Everything will be digitized and save in the computter. May be other brand of DV camcorder may have the same capability.
As for digitizing negative or slide, even printed photo, I used a $220 Epson V600. Do not be over sold by high resolution scanner. Your slides or negative will never achieve the resolution of more than 4800dpi, especially the color negative even with the best lens and camera. FYI, a 35mm slide will be 77.8M pixel at 7200 dpi. do you need that big of file per slide??


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## Jack Douglas (Feb 13, 2022)

Rocky said:


> I am going to share my experience of digitizing video here.
> I have a Panasonic Mini DV camcorder ( Model # PV-DG250, about 16 years old). Its analog to digital converter can be used as a stand alone A/D coverter without running the DV tape. I can just connect the analog input ( audio and video) from another source( 8mm, VHS etc) to the camcorder and the digital output to the computer , run the 8mm or VHS tape. Everything will be digitized and save in the computter. May be other brand of DV camcorder may have the same capability.
> As for digitizing negative or slide, even printed photo, I used a $220 Epson V600. Do not be over sold by high resolution scanner. Your slides or negative will never achieve the resolution of more than 4800dpi, especially the color negative even with the best lens and camera. FYI, a 35mm slide will be 77.8M pixel at 7200 dpi. do you need that big of file per slide??


Thanks. Good points. The Canon unit unfortunately will not feed directly to the computer, it has to go DVD but that's just an inconvenience. i had a flat bed with the frame for negatives and one of my bigger problems was dealing with static and dust but probably I wasn't serious enough at the time. My scanner is now my printer and I won't get another flat-bed.

Jack


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## becceric (Feb 14, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> Thanks. Good points. The Canon unit unfortunately will not feed directly to the computer, it has to go DVD but that's just an inconvenience. i had a flat bed with the frame for negatives and one of my bigger problems was dealing with static and dust but probably I wasn't serious enough at the time. My scanner is now my printer and I won't get another flat-bed.
> 
> Jack


My Epson Perfection scanner wasn’t quite “perfection” as hinted at for scanning my slides. The Epson software no longer functioned on my iMac, but Apple’s Image Capture program took on the job. There was a dusty haze on the flatbed’s glass, but after disassembling, cleaning and trying it again, there was only a slight improvement.
My brilliant wife advised my to try shooting the slides while placed on the lightbox she gave me many years ago. My 100mm f/2.8 macro L lens and a tripod helped complete the task with much better results. She has a great head on her shoulders (especially when she smiles) and I thank her continually for her good ideas.


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