# Is this rude or just customer apathy?



## jdramirez (Oct 19, 2013)

So I get contacted earlier in the week to photograph a flag racing event. I don't have anything planned so I say yes. Saturday... check, time... check... they'll send me the details later about where. The event is weather dependent so I'm not writing IOU's at the strip club and they said they would know by Friday if they were going to cancel for weather.

The email doesn't come... I contact the secretary of the organization and she says, "It will come this afternoon." It didn't. I'm still doing my homework... google (learning where the event is and the types of events that are going to be held)... facebook (making sure this is a real organization and not a robbery)... Flickr (getting an idea of what images and what angles are compelling). 

So today I touch base and I'm told they are deliberating on postponing, cancelling, or having the event at another venue. I request, "Keep me in the loop." 

11:30p.m. as I write and I still haven't received word. I know it has been cancelled... they indicated so on their Facebook page... but am out really out of line expecting a call, text, email, etc. indicating that it was cancelled? 

So does this happen to anyone else? Is it the customers who don't want to break bad news? I'm not that annoyed... I now have a weekend day free to do whatever I want... but I still can't help but be annoyed.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Is this rude of just customer apathy?*

I'd say its just plain rude, it is probably the result of someone who has overcommitted, but its still rude. Double your price next time.


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## Jim Saunders (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Is this rude of just customer apathy?*

If they asked you to be there, you're well within your right to expect an e-mail at least.

Jim


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## verysimplejason (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Is this rude of just customer apathy?*

Just consider this... If there's no confirmation, then just feel free to take other opportunities. I think that's standard among all business. Until there's a contract or a deal, your time is still yours. If unfortunately you have taken a deal before theirs, then it is still ethical and within your right to reject them but of course, if you have a colleague who can take over then it is also polite to give them his/her number.


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## distant.star (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Is this rude of just customer apathy?*

.
I'd go there, take pictures and send them a bill.


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## takesome1 (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Is this rude of just customer apathy?*

I don't think it is either.

I know your time is important but so are others that are involved in the event.
Most likely in the rush to let everyone know you probably were overlooked. Not on purpose, just because of bad organizational skills on their part. 

If this was a club event of some sort I could see it happen, I have been in several clubs and members always go away from an event thinking someone else is responsible.

If it bugs you send them a bill for show up time. They will get the idea and not forget the guy they hired next time.


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## jdramirez (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Is this rude of just customer apathy?*



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I'd say its just plain rude, it is probably the result of someone who has overcommitted, but its still rude. Double your price next time.



I thought I was more than reasonable with my price. Basically I said I would do a 5 hour job for $150 but if I received over $300 in order (prints or other crap you can throw a photo on) I'd waive the fee. So if I double that... it would be $300, but waived if I receive $600 in orders... I'd be ok with that too.


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## jdramirez (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Is this rude of just customer apathy?*



Jim Saunders said:


> If they asked you to be there, you're well within your right to expect an e-mail at least.
> 
> Jim



I was checking the weather... and there was .04 inches on Thursday... so I was I pretty optimistic... but I suppose the farm didn't really recover from the rain from the previous week.


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## jdramirez (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Is this rude of just customer apathy?*



takesome1 said:


> I don't think it is either.
> 
> I know your time is important but so are others that are involved in the event.
> Most likely in the rush to let everyone know you probably were overlooked. Not on purpose, just because of bad organizational skills on their part.
> ...



Yeah... but I think I would want the next guy they hire to be me... so I don't quite feel like burning bridges at the moment. I'll take a leak off a bridge... but not burn it to the ground.


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## takesome1 (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Is this rude of just customer apathy?*



jdramirez said:


> takesome1 said:
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> > I don't think it is either.
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Well you got a free day tomorrow. Just show up at their place tomorrow and see what happens 

Have all your gear on of course ready to go to work. 
When they tell you it was cancelled thank them and say you are glad, you will be able to go to your daughters first birthday party at noon. 

I would get some free guilt trip entertainment at least.


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## The Mad Kiwi (Oct 19, 2013)

Rude, certainly, but understandable. I've got friends who put on running events and when everything goes pear shaped the photographer is the last thing on their mind. So fire them a nice email to touch base and let them know you'd still love to do their next event. Never burn bridges with clients, never spit the dummy, be calm and understanding. It's easier to keep clients than find new ones. If you need a rant here's the place.


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## jdramirez (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Is this rude of just customer apathy?*



takesome1 said:


> jdramirez said:
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> > takesome1 said:
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It is on a farm... so when I show up... there might only be pigs and cows to greet me. But I might get a free fresh bacon breakfast out of the deal. 

But I already took the high road. I sent a message saying that I saw it was cancelled and I hope next year I can work some magic for them... or something lame like that. Damn high road has very thin air, so it makes it hard to be snarky.


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## Jim Saunders (Oct 19, 2013)

I had the impression that this one was pro bono; If it's a paid job and they don't tell you it's off then they can pay up. That said if you value the client then being a little proactive is a decision to make, I'd probably do the same.

Jim


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## scottkinfw (Oct 19, 2013)

They are rude, and inconsiderate of your time. They should compensate you, but good luck with that. Next time, get a non-refundable retainer. That way, they can be rude, and you can take your hurt feelings all the way to that strip club you mentioned.

Scott



jdramirez said:


> So I get contacted earlier in the week to photograph a flag racing event. I don't have anything planned so I say yes. Saturday... check, time... check... they'll send me the details later about where. The event is weather dependent so I'm not writing IOU's at the strip club and they said they would know by Friday if they were going to cancel for weather.
> 
> The email doesn't come... I contact the secretary of the organization and she says, "It will come this afternoon." It didn't. I'm still doing my homework... google (learning where the event is and the types of events that are going to be held)... facebook (making sure this is a real organization and not a robbery)... Flickr (getting an idea of what images and what angles are compelling).
> 
> ...


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## jdramirez (Oct 19, 2013)

The Mad Kiwi said:


> Rude, certainly, but understandable. I've got friends who put on running events and when everything goes pear shaped the photographer is the last thing on their mind. So fire them a nice email to touch base and let them know you'd still love to do their next event. Never burn bridges with clients, never spit the dummy, be calm and understanding. It's easier to keep clients than find new ones. If you need a rant here's the place.



Good advice. Actually what I was really hoping for was that there would be 85ish people/families at the event (estimate) and I would basically make 85 contacts for events like this, or sports, or dance recitals... all that crap. And then those 85 people know 10+ families each... and while I know it wouldn't lead to 850 job 935 jobs... it might lead to 10 additional. 

I refuse to do wedding and birthdays... but I kinda like being there for a 5 year old at bat in a baseball game. The money is really just a bonus to doing something I enjoy.


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## takesome1 (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Is this rude of just customer apathy?*



jdramirez said:


> takesome1 said:
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> > jdramirez said:
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Nah ...you did the right thing. Actually I think it is what I would have done. I couldn't have held a straight face for the guilt trip.

You can worry about the money and what not and it is short term. 
BUT
In the end the high road gets you to the top, always take it.


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## jdramirez (Oct 19, 2013)

scottkinfw said:


> They are rude, and inconsiderate of your time. They should compensate you, but good luck with that. Next time, get a non-refundable retainer. That way, they can be rude, and you can take your hurt feelings all the way to that strip club you mentioned.
> 
> Scott
> 
> ...



How much are lap dances now a days? About 15 years ago, they were $20... but with inflation, I imagine they have to be around $30. If it is still $20 and you get the really awful buffet, that's a good deal.


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## jdramirez (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Is this rude of just customer apathy?*



takesome1 said:


> Nah ...you did the right thing. Actually I think it is what I would have done. I couldn't have held a straight face for the guilt trip.
> 
> You can worry about the money and what not and it is short term.
> BUT
> In the end the high road gets you to the top, always take it.



I was excited for a few days and that cumulative excitement was greater than the disappointment I have that I'm not going to be doing it. So I think I walk away ahead. And I made an effort to learn about that style of photography that I would be using at the event... and even though it won't be used today... it will be down the road... probably.


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## Nishi Drew (Oct 19, 2013)

Yeah it's rude and very unprofessional on their part, but at least you didn't instead get the message "we decided to hire someone that's cheaper, and would do a lot more for us than you"...
At least I was notified though, and not have to find out on my own what really happened


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## Rienzphotoz (Oct 19, 2013)

Definitely rude, but unfortunately this does happen on occasion ... I know a few pro photographers who've had to face similar situations ... I'm not a pro but I do a lot of photo/video shoots for my company (free of charge) and when I reach the site (which is a 1.5 hour, one way drive) I find out that they have decided against mast raising of the rig (or some other rig activity that I was supposed to cover), but no one bothers to inform me, despite reminding them several times to keep me in the loop. But I do understand that organizing any event (especailly cancelling them) involves a lot of stress and coordinating with many people/organizations/companies etc, and a photographer is probably one of the last people in their mind to call and cancel ... I guess this is a problem faced by many self-employed people. If these races provide continued income in the long run, I suppose you could use this to your advantage by reminding the organizer that you did not charge them the last time for wasting your time etc and you might have a long term business relationship and the organizer is less likely to go to another photographer.


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## alexanderferdinand (Oct 19, 2013)

It was rude.
And for the "keep the client"- argument:
I refuse having clients like this.
Being nice and handsome most of the people misunderstand as weakness.

My 2 cents.


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## sanj (Oct 19, 2013)

Real world 'such is life' scenario. Sad/rude but happens all the time... If you had a written contract you could sue. In many states even a verbal confirmation is held valid.


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## Rienzphotoz (Oct 19, 2013)

alexanderferdinand said:


> It was rude.
> And for the "keep the client"- argument:
> I refuse having clients like this.
> Being nice and handsome most of the people misunderstand as weakness.


True ... but their misunderstanding does not diminish your value and success.
Regarding refusing clients: if photography is our full time job (or in any business for that matter) one cannot make emotional decisions based on one incident, one has to adapt to situations and find ways of retaining customers/clients, coz good times and bad times don't always stay forever ... occasionally one does need even the 'not-so nice' clients to tide through tough times ... unless of course we are so stinking rich that we don't need their business.


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## Don Haines (Oct 19, 2013)

I would take the high road. There is a wonderful saying about never contributing to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. Odds are that in the confusion of canceling, they forgot about you or that everyone assumed that someone else had contacted you.

If it were me, I would shrug it off as lessons learned and next time they ask you to shoot an event, ask for a deposit.

Burning bridges is never a good idea because you don't burn just one.... People talk, and the story of how the bridge was burned travels and costs your reputation dearly. It does not matter if it was justified or not, people remember.


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## Joe M (Oct 19, 2013)

Next time, ask for a deposit even if it's just a token one. Explain that others are vying for your time and that you need a monetary commitment. I know that events like this can be cancelled due to weather, something I'm only a little familiar with. Covering weddings, weather is never a factor. However, family days out and about and engagements can be affected in which case for me it is simply rescheduled. I would think that unless it's a once a year event or something of the sort, a deposit can be carried over until the event can be re-scheduled. 
As for "rude"? Who knows? They could have been busy. In this day and age emails do still get lost in cyberspace. Or maybe they thought that you weren't at the top of the "important list" that day and had other things and people to deal with first. In any case, it's likely best just to suck it up and remain cordial but in the future try to cement a stronger commitment to avoid it happening again. While good news can travel quickly, it seems to usually travel like molasses. The sonic boom you sometimes hear is bad news spreading. Avoid burning anything because you will never get the chance to tell you side to any potential customers. They'll just assume the bad was the whole kit and caboodle.


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## jdramirez (Oct 19, 2013)

Joe M said:


> Next time, ask for a deposit even if it's just a token one. Explain that others are vying for your time and that you need a monetary commitment. I know that events like this can be cancelled due to weather, something I'm only a little familiar with. Covering weddings, weather is never a factor. However, family days out and about and engagements can be affected in which case for me it is simply rescheduled. I would think that unless it's a once a year event or something of the sort, a deposit can be carried over until the event can be re-scheduled.
> As for "rude"? Who knows? They could have been busy. In this day and age emails do still get lost in cyberspace. Or maybe they thought that you weren't at the top of the "important list" that day and had other things and people to deal with first. In any case, it's likely best just to suck it up and remain cordial but in the future try to cement a stronger commitment to avoid it happening again. While good news can travel quickly, it seems to usually travel like molasses. The sonic boom you sometimes hear is bad news spreading. Avoid burning anything because you will never get the chance to tell you side to any potential customers. They'll just assume the bad was the whole kit and caboodle.



that's a good point about the deposit. I think a 10% deposit, which would have been $15 would have been more than reasonable... and I'd allow it to carry over to the next event if there were weather issues.

As it turns out, I feel like crap today and it would have been a challenge to be 100% focused on getting the best possible images... but Iwould have gone. I'm not bed ridden.


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## jdramirez (Oct 19, 2013)

Nishi Drew said:


> Yeah it's rude and very unprofessional on their part, but at least you didn't instead get the message "we decided to hire someone that's cheaper, and would do a lot more for us than you"...
> At least I was notified though, and not have to find out on my own what really happened



what they said was rude... in my flights of fancy, I thought about showing up with my camera phone and saying something stupid like... camera phones have come a long way... just look at the commercials.

and I hope the person they hired did a bad job cutting off head and over saturating the photos.


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## JohnUSA (Oct 21, 2013)

They posted to Facebook that the event was cancelled and in their eyes they contacted everyone, including the photographer, in one shot.... no need to individually contact anyone.

But yeah it's inconsiderate and unprofessional none the less.


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## jdramirez (Oct 21, 2013)

JohnUSA said:


> They posted to Facebook that the event was cancelled and in their eyes they contacted everyone, including the photographer, in one shot.... no need to individually contact anyone.
> 
> But yeah it's inconsiderate and unprofessional none the less.



Yeah... but I didn't get the job via facebook. If I did sure. That's like saying they sent out an email to all the participants and in their eyes they contacted everyone. Ummm... no. 

Also, if the porta-potty people weren't notified they would have shown up and they would have sent a bill for their services. 

You wouldn't expect the porta-potty people to check Facebook for a cancellation.


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## AcutancePhotography (Oct 21, 2013)

The Mad Kiwi said:


> Rude, certainly, but understandable. I've got friends who put on running events and when everything goes pear shaped the photographer is the last thing on their mind. So fire them a nice email to touch base and let them know you'd still love to do their next event. Never burn bridges with clients, never spit the dummy, be calm and understanding. It's easier to keep clients than find new ones. If you need a rant here's the place.



+1

I think that is the professional, and strategic solution. The OP entitled this thread "Is this rude or just customer apathy?" That assumes that those are the only options. It could have been a simple oversight/mistake. 

Their event was canceled. I am sure the event coordinators had a lot to work out. It was probably a lot more stressfull for them than it was for the OP. There is no reason for them to be deliberately rude. It may (I have no way of knowing) have been a simple mistake. Why not give them (a prospective client) the benefit of the doubt?

Be as understanding of other people's mistakes as you would wish them to be as understanding of your mistakes. 

Now, if later you find out that they were deliberately rude to you, then you can change your attitude toward them.


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## alexanderferdinand (Oct 21, 2013)

@Rienzphotoz:
Good points.
(And its good luck I earn my living not in this business!)
Sometimes its an awful feeling being kind, helpful, flexibel and then that.
The "artsy" - community is even worse.
You got good luck if a model is there at the time.
Photographers are the same, I've been told- don't know.


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## emag (Oct 21, 2013)

Ok...I'll ask the one question no one else has.....

What's a 'flag racing' event?

I think you handled the situation well.


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## jdramirez (Oct 21, 2013)

emag said:


> Ok...I'll ask the one question no one else has.....
> 
> What's a 'flag racing' event?
> 
> I think you handled the situation well.



think of a rodeo with barrel racing' that, but with a flag that you have to jam into a pot of dirt at the end of the run.


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## Rienzphotoz (Oct 22, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> emag said:
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> > Ok...I'll ask the one question no one else has.....
> ...


I thought I knew what flag racing was (which obviously was incorrect ... I thought it was like drag racing) ... but your explanation has me confused ... now I don't know what is flag racing ... earlier, at least I thought I knew what it was and was blissfully ignorant ... after your explanation I did a youtube search and clicked on the first (below) video that google threw at me ... now I am a thoroughly confused person. ;D 
Flag Racing


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## jdramirez (Oct 22, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> jdramirez said:
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that's the gist of it.


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## Rienzphotoz (Oct 22, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
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When does the action start? ;D


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## jdramirez (Oct 22, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> jdramirez said:
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when I crop in close so these narcissists get a perfect view of themselves... and then pay me more money than I deserve.

I'm not making fun of this who do this, mind you, but this isn't exactly football or basketball in regards to competition.


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## Jim Saunders (Oct 22, 2013)

A paycheck is a paycheck but likening that to barrel racing is imprecise at best; Even at a fairly local level it can get pretty intense.

Jim


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## jdramirez (Oct 22, 2013)

Jim Saunders said:


> A paycheck is a paycheck but likening that to barrel racing is imprecise at best; Even at a fairly local level it can get pretty intense.
> 
> Jim



you are probably right, but in every video I've seen online, the people are really quite lax and the horse looks like it is going in the wrong direction... but I'm willing to see and shoot it in person.


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## Rienzphotoz (Oct 22, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> Jim Saunders said:
> 
> 
> > A paycheck is a paycheck but likening that to barrel racing is imprecise at best; Even at a fairly local level it can get pretty intense.
> ...


… also some rather large sized people riding on what looks like very small horses … feel sorry for the horse ;D at least in the few youtube videos I've seen.


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## Jim Saunders (Oct 22, 2013)

I take barrel racing to mean like this, rather a different thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l_Cb7aRopc

Jim


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## ablearcher (Oct 22, 2013)

Yep, a deposit (and a contract) is the solution. I always tell the clients that until i have their deposit, the day remains open for other customers.


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## RunAndGun (Oct 23, 2013)

In the TV world, the prevailing practice used to be cancelation less than 24 hours out was a full-boat bill. Since they never even bothered with that, I'd say you would have been justified in billing them for the day. Them posting on Facebook doesn't cut it. They should have called, emailed or at least texted. Now if it had been a "good client", that's different. You don't want to bite the hand that feeds you. My main client(125+ days a year) gets a LOT more leeway than someone that just called out of the blue.


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## truejahmal (Oct 23, 2013)

That's pure inconsideration on their part. Lucky you didn't charge in advance for this sort of thing.


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## Valvebounce (Oct 23, 2013)

Hi folks.
Wow that poor little pony, don't they enforce weight limits, as in I went for a 2 hour trek in AZ when I was there and they put me on this thing like a cart horse, because of my weight, and I know I weigh less than her!

Also talk about a lame event, you want action look for a British gymkhana, 6 or 8 in the ring at the same time doing roughly the same thing, round the marker at each point and plant a flag , retrieve the flag etc all done at 2 or more times her speed! Now that gets busy and a bit exciting if you are in to things you have to feed but not with gasoline!

Edit


Jim Saunders said:


> I take barrel racing to mean like this, rather a different thing:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l_Cb7aRopc
> 
> Jim



On the other hand this looks more exciting, still think it needs at least 2 in there at the same time. ;D ;D

Cheers Graham.



Rienzphotoz said:


> jdramirez said:
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