# What happens to Big Whites when Mirrorless Takes Over?



## YuengLinger (May 15, 2017)

Of course I'm concerned about all the ef mount lenses losing resale value if Canon goes primarily mirrorless, even for pro bodies.

Should Canon get ahead of this and assure current and prospective lens customers? 

Is it in Canon's interest to make ef mount obsolete?

Will adapters protect an investment in Big Whites and other L lenses, or will they "cripple" ef mounts compared to whatever the new native FF mirrorless mount will be?


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## privatebydesign (May 15, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> Of course I'm concerned about all the ef mount lenses losing resale value if Canon goes primarily mirrorless, even for pro bodies.
> 
> Should Canon get ahead of this and assure current and prospective lens customers?
> 
> ...



There is no way on earth Canon are walking away from their EF lens standard, none, zero. 

Now before anybody throws out the previous move from FD to EF, which I went through as a working professional, lets keep in context why that move was necessary, it was to provide a large enough mount to include optics and electronics. This means EF lenses can be mounted on anything with a shorter registration distance, 44mm, and that has the EF electronic protocols. FD is 42mm which means if you have a converter only 2mm thick FD lenses will focus on EF cameras, this is the basis of the Ed Mika 'conversions and convertors.

Canon will enable any mirrorless camera it makes 100% compatible with EF lenses either natively, now the mirrorless is smaller size meme has been cast aside, or via a designed from the outset adapter, just like the M.


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## geonix (May 15, 2017)

As posted on another thread:
They (Canon, Nikon, Pentax) could leave DSLR bodies as they are and just take out the mirrorbox and the pentaprisim. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-OIp0OHUHA

That way the cameras would have the excellent handling and ergonomics of todays dslrs as well es their flange distance and the benefits of EVF and mirrorless


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## Don Haines (May 15, 2017)

In the hands of skilled photographers, they continue to deliver great images......


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## dak723 (May 15, 2017)

Forget the internet and the way it makes you overthink everything until you go crazy. Pretend there is no Canon Rumors or any other internet forum. Buy what you want or need. There is no way Canon will make any of their EF lenses obsolete when they begin producing mirrorless FF cameras.


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## YuengLinger (May 15, 2017)

dak723 said:


> Forget the internet and the way it makes you overthink everything until you go crazy. Pretend there is no Canon Rumors or any other internet forum. Buy what you want or need. There is no way Canon will make any of their EF lenses obsolete when they begin producing mirrorless FF cameras.



I'm able to "overthink everything" without the need of the Internet, thank you. 

I notice that you qualify your claim with, "when they _begin_ producing mirrorless FF cameras." It's what comes after that humble beginning that concerns me.

If I had experience with adapters, I might have less concern, but Big Whites and (many) other L's are bought not only for image quality, but AF performance too.

If Canon saw an opportunity for MASSIVE pressured new purchases of native FF lenses, with research showing an acceptably small number of current customers jumping ship, it would be a business decision, period. 

I'm sure there'd be a sunset phase. Maybe there'd be enough bodies out there to keep up a used market for ef, but at some point, Canon would reach the end of repair time for all...

There are way too many examples of "forever" tech disappearing relatively quickly, and such extinctions seem to be happening faster than ever.

Just for ONCE, wouldn't be nice for a big corporation to present a good-faith road map for anticipated tectonic shifts?

Absolutes such as "no way" or "none, zero" are actually less convincing than "not likely."


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## Dylan777 (May 15, 2017)

Very easy....sell big white now and start shooting with ONLY Sony. I heard mirrorless is the future ;D

Your investment with Sony is safe ;D ;D


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## kphoto99 (May 15, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> If I had experience with adapters, I might have less concern, but Big Whites and (many) other L's are bought not only for image quality, but AF performance too.



If Canon changes the flange distance for the FF mirrorless then the adapter will be like the one for EF-M to EF. This adapter just connects the lens contacts to the contacts on the camera. It does not affect the lens AF. The only things that affects the AF of a big white is the amount of power the camera body can supply to the big lens.


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## Aussie shooter (May 16, 2017)

Can't see canon making the EF lenses obsolete. While a lot of people shoot canon because it is reliable and has better ergonomics than other brands, many arr also invested in the system due to mega dollars spent on the glass. Forcing those customers to buy new glass would also give them the opportunity to switch systems. I am not sure many would go down the sony line but Fujifilm is looking pretty damn good lately.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 16, 2017)

Canon has adaptors for any mirrorless cameras they might produce, so there is no worry. The lens is so huge that a short adapter would make no difference. I doubt that any big white lenses would be modified for several years if/when a new mount standard comes out, Canon would be very busy redesigning the ordinary lenses.

I have not seen any big whites modified to fit "M" bodies, there is no need to do it.


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## unfocused (May 16, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> There is no way on earth Canon are walking away from their EF lens standard, none, zero...
> 
> ...Canon will enable any mirrorless camera it makes 100% compatible with EF lenses...



Correct. 

First, the title of this thread is incorrect. It should read: What happens to Big Whites *if* mirrorless takes over?

At this point, it is absolutely impossible to predict if the mirrorless "revolution" will ever occur, or if it's just a fantasy of forum dwellers with too much time on their hands.

If the enthusiast and professional level DSLRs ever do migrate to mirrorless, it will occur gradually and the resulting bodies will look and behave very much like today's mirrored bodies. They may be slightly smaller, perhaps approaching the size of the F1 and other film cameras from the 70s, but they won't be significantly smaller and they will certainly take EF lenses. 

One look at the sidelines of any professional or college sporting event will tell you that Canon is not going to do anything to undermine its dominance in the field.


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## unfocused (May 16, 2017)

Dylan777 said:


> Very easy....sell big white now and start shooting with ONLY Sony. I heard mirrorless is the future ;D
> 
> Your investment with Sony is safe ;D ;D



Safe until Sony abandons the market.


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## Jopa (May 16, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Of course I'm concerned about all the ef mount lenses losing resale value if Canon goes primarily mirrorless, even for pro bodies.
> ...



I'll vote for you on the next Canon CEO elections.


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## YuengLinger (May 16, 2017)

One doesn't have to be a "forum dweller" (takes one to know one, I guess) to clearly see that mirrorless will supplant dSLR. The difficult prediction, of course, is "when."

If it is very far in the future, then it has no influence on the decision to buy a Big White today.

If it is seven years or less? 

We've heard from those who say it can't happen. For those who believe it will, perhaps within a decade, how do you see the transition playing out? Will Canon give us a heads up, a phase out schedule?

Will they work with the form factor and ergonomics of mirrorless bodies so they use native EF mounts? Or will they see too many restrictions?


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## weixing (May 16, 2017)

Hi,


unfocused said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Very easy....sell big white now and start shooting with ONLY Sony. I heard mirrorless is the future ;D
> ...


 Just replace the 'n' with double 'r'. 

Have a nice day.


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## Orangutan (May 16, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> One doesn't have to be a "forum dweller" (takes one to know one, I guess) to clearly see that mirrorless will supplant dSLR. The difficult prediction, of course, is "when."
> 
> If it is very far in the future, then it has no influence on the decision to buy a Big White today.
> 
> ...



There's an unwarranted assumption that mirrorless bodies must be smaller, but this is false. Bear in mind that every modern digital video camera is, in essence, a mirrorless camera. This includes cinema, broadcast, sports, etc. Sure, without the mirror box it's possible to make the body smaller, but it's equally possible to use that newly-available space to implement a 3-chip design for much higher IQ in top-end pro bodies.


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## YuengLinger (May 16, 2017)

And might not mirrorless also lead to bodies with medium format sensors which cost about the same as today's FF 35mm based bodies?

FF will then become the "cropped sensor" body, so, maybe the ef-s will be the first to be phased out.

Yes, this is speculation, mostly for fun. Not meant to raise anxiety and hackles, but at SOME POINT, somebody will be the last person to pay full price for a Big White or other L series ef mount lens, only to see it obsolete before the warranty runs out. 

I predict that the ef mount, introduced in 1987, has considerably less time ahead than behind.


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## privatebydesign (May 16, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> And might not mirrorless also lead to bodies with medium format sensors which cost about the same as today's FF 35mm based bodies?
> 
> FF will then become the "cropped sensor" body, so, maybe the ef-s will be the first to be phased out.
> 
> ...



The failing in that train of thought is the image circle needed for a larger sized sensor. The 135 format was introduced in 1934, it has proven incredibly robust as a 'sweet spot' of the various compromises any camera system imposes from lens sizes and costs and availability, to dof control and general image quality. There is no way, in any kind of foreseeable time frame, Canon are going to migrate away from that core 135 format standard, and if they do it will be to smaller sensors as IQ improves and software can emulate shallower dof.


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## Jopa (May 16, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> Yes, this is speculation, mostly for fun. Not meant to raise anxiety and hackles, but at SOME POINT, somebody will be the last person to pay full price for a Big White or other L series ef mount lens, only to see it obsolete before the warranty runs out.



At some point somebody will be the last person on the Earth


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## Dylan777 (May 16, 2017)

unfocused said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Very easy....sell big white now and start shooting with ONLY Sony. I heard mirrorless is the future ;D
> ...



Some of you worry tooooo much


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## danski0224 (May 16, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> Yes, this is speculation, mostly for fun. Not meant to raise anxiety and hackles, but at SOME POINT, somebody will be the last person to pay full price for a Big White or other L series ef mount lens, only to see it obsolete before the warranty runs out.
> 
> I predict that the ef mount, introduced in 1987, has considerably less time ahead than behind.



Unfortunately, Canon already "obsoletes" lenses costing many thousands of dollars to purchase.

As far as the EF mount goes, unless there is a paradigm shift in sensor size, f stop requirements or the electronic stuff that goes inside of an EF lens, there is no reason for Canon to introduce an EF mount replacement. Canon has already demonstrated that the EF mount can handle an f stop of 1.0, so unless something wider than that is needed, why change?

All EF lenses will work (natively or with a Canon made adapter) on all Canon interchangeable lens cameras currently made.

Unlike Nikon, any EF lens made since 1987 can work with any Canon EF mount body without any asterisks. The only lens feature that won't work using a current lens on a pre-1V body is IS.

Canon has billions of dollars invested in "full frame" sensor production. Changes there are not likely.

Whenever Canon decides to release a "full frame" mirrorless camera, I believe that it will follow the current Sigma sd mirrorless camera design philosophy with respect to the flange distance: it will be the same as the current "full frame" DSLR's. 

The team behind the design of the EF mount had a tremendous amount of foresight (or luck  )- their work has been able to remain current and competitive since the release in 1987. Design work certainly started 3 to 5 years prior.

It isn't going away anytime soon.


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## LDS (May 16, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> And might not mirrorless also lead to bodies with medium format sensors which cost about the same as today's FF 35mm based bodies?
> FF will then become the "cropped sensor" body, so, maybe the ef-s will be the first to be phased out.



Those will require larger lenses. For a 6x7 sensor, a normal (50mm) lens would be a 100mmm, and you would need a 600mm to get the equivalent of a 300mm, more or less. 

So what will happen to Big Whites if mirrorless go larger sensors? They would become your "common" lenses... 

There was a reason general photography went from mostly using 120/220/620 film to mostly using 35mm film, despite the former delivering better IQ. The latter allowed for more compact and lighter cameras and lenses.


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## Orangutan (May 16, 2017)

LDS said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > And might not mirrorless also lead to bodies with medium format sensors which cost about the same as today's FF 35mm based bodies?
> ...



Eventually (10 years? 20 years?) computers will be able to design lenses quickly, and with better image quality than humans can do. Automated manufacture will similarly reduce re-tooling costs, and we'll be able to have a larger-sensor mirrorless body with a full line of lenses. It may even reach the point where you can custom-order a particular configuration for a somewhat-reasonable price. The question is when, not if.


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## LDS (May 16, 2017)

Orangutan said:


> we'll be able to have a larger-sensor mirrorless body with a full line of lenses.



Unless there are big advances in optics (i.e. getting rid of glass lenses) and engineering (materials and AF systems), there are limitations dictated by physics - a 600/4 lens will still be large and heavy, more so if you need a larger image circle. Maybe sensor will improve and you can use a 600/11 (probably lighter, but still big enough), but the DOF will be that of f/11. Maybe you will be able to simulate it processing the image, even in-camera, but it won't be the same thing.

I see people believe the mirrorless will be something alike the "second coming", but actually they are just a way to remove the mirror, everything else is still the same. Sensors, processors and software may probably do a lot to change the way we capture images, but that's is true for any imaging devices, regardless of the presence of a mirror and OVF, or not.


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## Orangutan (May 16, 2017)

LDS said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > we'll be able to have a larger-sensor mirrorless body with a full line of lenses.
> ...


This is trivially true. I was responding only to the belief that larger-sensor mirrorless is unlikely due to the lack of lenses. Lens design continues to get easier, but optical physics is still a constraint.



> I see people believe the mirrorless will be something alike the "second coming", but actually they are just a way to remove the mirror, everything else is still the same. Sensors, processors and software may probably do a lot to change the way we capture images, but that's is true for any imaging devices



Agreed. More specifically, people often look at mirrorless as if they are looking into a mirror: they see their own needs met, and look no further.


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## unfocused (May 16, 2017)

Dylan777 said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



I don't worry at all. I buy Canon.


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## unfocused (May 16, 2017)

There is a simple answer to all this concern about the EF lens mount eventually going away (which, for the record, isn't a real concern).

I would just buy the last model Canon makes with the EF lens mount and keep it until I die. Given the quality of cameras today, I could happily shoot the rest of my life with existing bodies and never really need anything else.


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## Pixel (May 17, 2017)

There sure are a lot of new lenses in the pipeline and development for a standard that is rumored to be going obsolete. 

#nothappening


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## retroreflection (May 17, 2017)

Compare the world's full frame capable lens mount standards. EF is frequently rated as the best. 
Compare the volume of existing lenses in full frame capable lens mounts. EF is the biggest.
Why should an extinction of dslr's do anything to the continued sale of EF lenses?


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## unfocused (May 17, 2017)

Pixel said:


> There sure are a lot of new lenses in the pipeline and development for a standard that is rumored to be going obsolete.
> 
> #nothappening



I think "rumor" is too strong of a description. Try "delusional fantasy."


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## LonelyBoy (May 17, 2017)

Eh, when (and it will happen eventually for some reason) EF is retired, I believe it will be a slow process. At the point when it does, EF bodies will be available for some time, those bodies will be supported for yet more time, and be available on the secondary market even longer. CPS will service and rent them. Your Big Whites will be useful for the time you expected, then (or close to). Canon is not going to one day just announce that EF bodies and lenses are no longer available and supported starting today. Certainly they'll continue to work tomorrow as they do today, for a lot of tomorrows. One day, maybe ten or twenty years from now, you'll be made aware that you ought to begin your transition plan, whether that's starting to acquire a new Big White in the new mount to match your new body and sell your existing ones to people who intend to carry on with EF for a while, or continue with EF yourself and take advantage of cheap used lenses. You won't be left in the lurch.

Or at least, that's my belief.


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## YuengLinger (May 17, 2017)

LonelyBoy said:


> Eh, when (and it will happen eventually for some reason) EF is retired, I believe it will be a slow process. At the point when it does, EF bodies will be available for some time, those bodies will be supported for yet more time, and be available on the secondary market even longer. CPS will service and rent them. Your Big Whites will be useful for the time you expected, then (or close to). Canon is not going to one day just announce that EF bodies and lenses are no longer available and supported starting today. Certainly they'll continue to work tomorrow as they do today, for a lot of tomorrows. One day, maybe ten or twenty years from now, you'll be made aware that you ought to begin your transition plan, whether that's starting to acquire a new Big White in the new mount to match your new body and sell your existing ones to people who intend to carry on with EF for a while, or continue with EF yourself and take advantage of cheap used lenses. You won't be left in the lurch.
> 
> Or at least, that's my belief.



Sensible!


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## pokerz (May 18, 2017)

kphoto99 said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > If I had experience with adapters, I might have less concern, but Big Whites and (many) other L's are bought not only for image quality, but AF performance too.
> ...


STM designed for on-sensor AF (Mirrorless) while USM designed for off-sensor AF (DSLR)
So prepare to upgrade your white lens to STM version in near future for the best performance.


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## YuengLinger (May 18, 2017)

pokerz said:


> STM designed for on-sensor AF (Mirrorless) while USM designed for off-sensor AF (DSLR)
> So prepare to upgrade your white lens to STM version in near future for the best performance.



Exactly what I'm concerned about.

Who else has thoughts about this?


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## Maximilian (May 18, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> pokerz said:
> 
> 
> > STM designed for on-sensor AF (Mirrorless) while USM designed for off-sensor AF (DSLR)
> ...


Me not!
STM and USM in first place are just different types of motors. 
It's the way you control them and this can be adapted by the developers.
I would just wait and relax. Go out shooting


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## asmundma (May 22, 2017)

Lets see how the A9 handles the big whites.


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## Deleted member 91053 (May 22, 2017)

I wouldn't panic just yet!

Mirrorless cameras have a very long way to go before they will be useful for the Sports/Wildlife fraternity. After all they will have to make one that focuses on where the subject is - not where it was.

DSLR cameras are not perfect by any means but, for now, they are still way in advance of the alternatives. 

The Mirrorless producers will also have to produce far more robust camera bodies with much larger (and higher voltage?) batteries before they can compete.

Having said that, I am sure that competitive cameras will be produced - but will they be as good? For many users they probably will be. For my, personal, uses the EVF and AF delay make them pretty much useless - I have enough problems with a DSLR already!

In the future I am sure there will be a Mirrorless camera with a nice big battery, robust body, minimal viewfinder delay, AF that tracks ahead of the viewfinder, has vertical and horizontal grips etc etc. Sounds like a 1DX/D5 without the bump on top - that is a lot of extra expense on R&D to eliminate a little bump on top ;D


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## Ozarker (Jun 6, 2017)

I don't understand why anyone thinks a FF mirrorless camera by Canon won't be an EF mount. Mirrorless doesn't have to be one of those nasty to hold Sony type cameras. Sony may have abandoned ergonomics, but Canon won't.


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## weixing (Jun 6, 2017)

Hi,


CanonFanBoy said:


> I don't understand why anyone thinks a FF mirrorless camera by Canon won't be an EF mount. Mirrorless doesn't have to be one of those nasty to hold Sony type cameras. Sony may have abandoned ergonomics, but Canon won't.


 I agree. Since Canon are still releasing new EF mount lenses, I don't think Canon will change to a new mount when they go full mirrorless. If you want a compact mirrorless, there is EOS M camera.

Have a nice day.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 6, 2017)

Back to the original question, the answer is obvious...at least to some on CR: Canon can't compete with Sony, so when mirrorless takes over, Canon will give up and exit the ILC market, meaning the big whites will be obsolete.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jun 6, 2017)

> What happens to Big Whites when Mirrorless Takes Over?



Everyone's going to look like a phone digiscoper:


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## Keith_Reeder (Jun 6, 2017)

asmundma said:


> Lets see how the A9 handles the big whites.



The good thing about the Big Whites is that their colour keeps things cool, which will help _a lot_ with the A9...

_It's almost like Canon saw the A9 coming..!_


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## BillB (Jun 6, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> pokerz said:
> 
> 
> > STM designed for on-sensor AF (Mirrorless) while USM designed for off-sensor AF (DSLR)
> ...



I don't think the USM or STM lens motor has anything to do either reading or processing AF information, be it on sensor or off sensor. That is done in the camera and the lens motor doesn't have anything to do with it. All the lens motor does is adjust the lens in response to signals sent by the camera. So, I don't see how or why a lens motor would respond differently depending on whether the AF is off sensor (phase detect) AF on on sensor (contrast detection).


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## Keith_Reeder (Jun 6, 2017)

Yep, I don't see the connection either...


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## mnclayshooter (Jun 6, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Back to the original question, the answer is obvious...at least to some on CR: Canon can't compete with Sony, so when mirrorless takes over, Canon will give up and exit the ILC market, meaning the big whites will be obsolete.



https://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/1490901728000_925817.jpg


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## LonelyBoy (Jun 9, 2017)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Yep, I don't see the connection either...



I said it on some other thread here a couple of weeks ago - I swear we could watch it happen over the last few years.

1) STM is launched and described as "great for video"
2) DPAF is launched and described as "great for video"
3) DPAF cameras are bundled with STM lenses with much ballyhooing over video
4) people assume that DPAF and STM _must_ go together and USM doesn't work as well with DPAF

That last bit was never stated, but is a tempting conclusion, and once people starting saying it, it became entrenched as an assumption that low-information people accepted without question.


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## rrcphoto (Jun 10, 2017)

pokerz said:


> kphoto99 said:
> 
> 
> > YuengLinger said:
> ...



not true at all.

STM was better for Hybrid AF sensors that used PDAF points and CDAF to focus. CDAF required STM for relatively smooth focus because it would focus in short iterative steps.

with DPAF sensors they are phase detect only, which means that it really doesn't matter anymore. which is why any modern lens focuses just fine in liveview mode on a 5DIV, 1DX II, M5,etc.

with further maturing of DPAF sensors and the related DIGIC's to drive them, STM simply just becomes a cost saving approach. but with linear USM now, it could be that STM gets phased out all together.


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## scrup (Jun 11, 2017)

Maybe it be go on sale so normal folks can afford the set.


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## YuengLinger (Jun 11, 2017)

scrup said:


> Maybe it be go on sale so normal folks can afford the set.



"Normal folks" don't buy Great Whites even if they have a lot of money. Only complete, kookoo bananas, obsessive-compulsive, all-in photographers willing to spend hours chasing a few great shots while dragging around tons of gear through tick infested wilds...

In other words, shutter bugs on steroids.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jun 11, 2017)

Yep, sounds about right..!


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## Maiaibing (Jun 11, 2017)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Everyone's going to look like a phone digiscoper:



Interesting. New to me. Curious and have Canon 300mm f/2.8 IS L and 100-400 IS L II. How does this work (not the iphone-thingy that's obvious, but the "scope" parts)?


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## Keith_Reeder (Jun 11, 2017)

Digiscoping is about using a phone (or originally, a P&S) on the back of a _telescope_, not a camera lens.

It was a very limited, cobbled-together way of getting more focal length onto a bird, before DSLRs and longer lenses started to become ubiquitous - no metering, no meaningful shutter-speed control, no AF, but it was enough to give the user at least a chance of an image that wouldn't be achievable with a P&S alone.

Digibinning is a similar idea, but putting the phone or camera behind the eyepiece of a pair of binoculars.


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## Maiaibing (Jun 11, 2017)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Digiscoping is about using a phone (or originally, a P&S) on the back of a _telescope_, not a camera lens.
> 
> It was a very limited, cobbled-together way of getting more focal length onto a bird, before DSLRs and longer lenses started to become ubiquitous - no metering, no meaningful shutter-speed control, no AF, but it was enough to give the user at least a chance of an image that wouldn't be achievable with a P&S alone.
> 
> Digibinning is a similar idea, but putting the phone or camera behind the eyepiece of a pair of binoculars.


OK - thought it was a lens!


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