# R.I.P Metz Speedlites.



## RLPhoto (Nov 20, 2014)

Very sad day for a strobist. One of the best makers of alternative speedlites is going under.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6718942318/lighting-equipment-manufacturer-metz-files-for-insolvency


----------



## AcutancePhotography (Nov 20, 2014)

That is sad. They made some good flahes. :'(


----------



## iMagic (Nov 20, 2014)

Insolvency does not necessarily mean shutting down. They will restructure or be bought out. It is possible that the profitable product lines will continue in some fashion.


----------



## Marsu42 (Nov 20, 2014)

RLPhoto said:


> Very sad day for a strobist. One of the best makers of alternative speedlites is going under.



All demise reports on German online news only referred to them as a manufacturer of tv sets. Since Metz obviously didn't even manage to promote what they're manufacturing at all, the bankruptcy is no surprise :-\

For those who aren't intimate with German law: The current state of affairs doesn't mean the end of Metz, but simply states that they cannot pay their bills. Now an appointed expert will have a look what can be salvaged - so the flashes might very well be continued if they are expected to be profitable sooner or later (again).


----------



## DominoDude (Nov 20, 2014)

*sobs* It's sad indeed.
I hope there's a flash at the end of the tunnel - and that it has Metz quality.


----------



## TWI by Dustin Abbott (Nov 21, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Very sad day for a strobist. One of the best makers of alternative speedlites is going under.
> ...



Exactly. My contact tells me that an administrator has been appointed to run the business for now. I would be very surprised if they cease manufacturing altogether. I just personally consolidated to using their new 64 AF-1 flash units exclusively - they are fabulous, and have unparalleled power.


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 21, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> All demise reports on German online news only referred to them as a manufacturer of tv sets. Since Metz obviously didn't even manage to promote what they're manufacturing at all, the bankruptcy is no surprise :-\



They have a very specific target audience - people who expect, and are willing to pay for, services like planning, setup and after sales support. Basically the antithesis to the common online or mall customer. A bit like H,L&P1, but without the professional segment.


----------



## risc32 (Nov 21, 2014)

"I just personally consolidated to using their new 64 AF-1 flash units exclusively - they are fabulous, and have unparalleled power."


beyond 60WS? does it run on 4xaa?


----------



## Quackator (Nov 21, 2014)

TWI by Dustin Abbott said:


> I just personally consolidated to using their new 64 AF-1 flash units exclusively - they are fabulous, and have unparalleled power.



You might want to check out the Pixel mago, then.
Does everything the Metz 64 AF-1 does - plus LED 
video light / pilot light and at a fraction of the price.

Got one as a beta tester, and saw many people buy 
it during Photokina for 70 Euro. Who ever I showed 
it to, they went over and bought one.


----------



## Quackator (Nov 21, 2014)

risc32 said:


> beyond 60WS? does it run on 4xaa?



Not beyond 60 Ws, just longer zoom range.
Yes, runs on 4x AA.


----------



## DominoDude (Nov 21, 2014)

Quackator said:


> TWI by Dustin Abbott said:
> 
> 
> > I just personally consolidated to using their new 64 AF-1 flash units exclusively - they are fabulous, and have unparalleled power.
> ...



Just looked at http://flashhavoc.com/pixel-mago-flash-review/ to see what Pixel Mago was. It's not giving me the impression that it can deliver as consistent light and colour (no matter the power output) as Metz typically can. The reports of melting front lenses makes me believe the build quality and design also has a few steps of improvement until they are in the same class as Metz.


----------



## Old Shooter (Nov 21, 2014)

Sad! One of THE strobes in the 80's and 90's...


----------



## Maximilian (Nov 21, 2014)

Hi all! 

I wouldn't bury Metz that fast. 
As Marsu and others pointed out, they just filed insolvency (call it: "file under chapter 11" or "go into administration"). So the business still keeps running and maybe they will find an investor or another solution.

Although I live quite close to their facilities (Zirndorf is some 10 km west of Nürnberg) and therefore there is a lot of information in the local newspapers, they always just talk about the TV department filing insolvency. But I haven't found any information about the company structure and if the flashes are a separate department. 
I can only see that they are doing their business as "limited partnership with a limited liability company as general partner" (German: GmbH & Co KG). So I suppose the flashes are included.

Let's see what the insolvency administrator can do for people, jobs and company.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Nov 21, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> For those who aren't intimate with German law: The current state of affairs doesn't mean the end of Metz, but simply states that they cannot pay their bills. Now an appointed expert will have a look what can be salvaged - so the flashes might very well be continued if they are expected to be profitable sooner or later (again).



Exactly, I do hope that their flash business will survive. I have a Metz macroflash and an AF 58-2 which is quite good (besides its old fashioned interface), in particular because it has a small secondary flash which can be used to set additional highlights. That's a unique feature of Metz flashes.


----------



## Maximilian (Nov 21, 2014)

justaCanonuser said:


> I do hope that their flash business will survive. I have a Metz macroflash and an AF 58-2 which is quite good (besides its old fashioned interface)...


Maybe it's time to buy a new Metz flash to strenghen their business


----------



## DominoDude (Nov 21, 2014)

Maximilian said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I wouldn't bury Metz that fast.
> As Marsu and others pointed out, they just filed insolvency (call it: "file under chapter 11" or "go into administration"). So the business still keeps running and maybe they will find an investor or another solution.
> ...



Good to hear that, Maximilian!
How commonly known and owned are Metz in Deutschland? I had never heard or seen anything about their TV's (except seen them on their web), but their flashes - especially the old "hammerheads" - has always been mentioned with awe and utter respect for their quality.


----------



## AvTvM (Nov 21, 2014)

Maximilian said:


> justaCanonuser said:
> 
> 
> > I do hope that their flash business will survive. I have a Metz macroflash and an AF 58-2 which is quite good (besides its old fashioned interface)...
> ...



Only if one wants to live with the uncertainty re. warranty and future availability of service/repairs, spare parts etc. 

I never bought third party strobes for Canon. Price difference for Metz strobes vs. Canon speedlites was not good enough for me to take any compatibility risks with reverse engineered third party gear. ETTL II in itself is complicated and finicky enough to avoid any additional source of problems. 

Had Metz come out with Canon RT-compatible strobes and transmitters (!) at half price compared to Canon, then I would have considered. But either their engineers did not see fit to build them and/or German and EU laws did not provide any possiblity to work around Canon patents and protected designs. This is not China. The playing field is not level, but heavily tilted due to these types "imperfections of globalization".

As it is, I do not see a viable future for Metz. Mahogany furnished TV sets and simple hammerhead flashes are somewhat out of style. And lower-end "commodity" products cannot be produced at competitive costs in Germany.


----------



## Maximilian (Nov 21, 2014)

DominoDude said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > Hi all!
> ...


Metz is for sure a brand well known to those in photo business. An I know several people using Metz flashes, including myself, but only in the past. Now I use a Canon flash. 
I am not sure, if younger people recognize them as a brand for TVs. I don't think so. They were well known for that in the 70s and 80s. But today they are simply to expensive for the mainstream. And they obviously couldn't establish in the high performance TV market.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Nov 21, 2014)

Too bad ... cheaper labour in China is putting pressure on German manufacturers, who pay living wages.


----------



## AcutancePhotography (Nov 21, 2014)

Rienzphotoz said:


> Too bad ... cheaper labour in China is putting pressure on German manufacturers, who pay living wages.



Just wait until manufacturs start moving their factories to Africa, then the Chinese will get a taste of their own bitter cheap medicine. Probably be a decade or three, but I am pretty sure we will start seeing cheap manufacturing moving to Africa.

There is always someone in the world eager to work for a lower wage that is higher than they get now.


----------



## awinphoto (Nov 21, 2014)

I wonder if this means I will be able to pick up a 70 series flash for cheap soon... I had one back in the film days and it still out-powers todays top canon and nikon flashes... Had to sell it because it wasn't digital compatible... Would pick one up now if they didn't jack up the prices to what they are...


----------



## awinphoto (Nov 21, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > justaCanonuser said:
> ...



I've had many metz flashes... extremely solid products... never once had to even think about the warranty... like apple, they just work.


----------



## Marsu42 (Nov 21, 2014)

awinphoto said:


> I've had many metz flashes...  extremely solid products... never once had to even think about the warranty... like apple, they just work.



Which would be the very reason why Metz is broke - how can you expect a company to make some profit if their products simply keep on working!? Decent business practice dictates to implement planned obsolescence by some kind of suicide device or forced upgrades to retain compatibility with other products :-o


----------



## awinphoto (Nov 21, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > I've had many metz flashes... extremely solid products... never once had to even think about the warranty... like apple, they just work.
> ...



Well Canon and Nikon has sure learned not to make that mistake lol. The only reason i stopped using Metz was when the 7d came out and i wanted to be able to use the commander... I made a profit from what i originally spent on the metz flash to what i was able to resell them (thanks to inflation and price increases during that time)...


----------



## AcutancePhotography (Nov 21, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > I've had many metz flashes... extremely solid products... never once had to even think about the warranty... like apple, they just work.
> ...



That is a very good point! ;D

It is more difficult to get your customer to buy more of your product than it is to get your customer to re-buy your product.


----------



## Quackator (Nov 21, 2014)

I have almost two dozen shoe mount flashes.
Used to have tons of Metz.

In 2006 I suggested they build a flash with manual 
power settings exceeding their dated full/W/M range.

They answered that they don't see a market there.

Enter strobist.

Bang.

Today about EVERY flash has manual settings at 
least in full stops from 1/1 down to 1/64, some
down to 1/128 or even 1/256.

Every flash except most Metz devices.


Then I told them the world was ready for a ringflash
meant to fill in at very close range for wedding/event
shooters. made very clear that this ringflash must
work on the most frequently used lenses in these
genres, all with 77mm filter thread.

Took them two years, and then they produced the
MS-15 light. With 72mm filter thread.

You lose when you go to a gunfight with a toothpick.

German wages were not the problem, their product 
portfolio failed big time.


----------



## AcutancePhotography (Nov 21, 2014)

awinphoto said:


> I've had many metz flashes... never once had to even think about the warranty...



That to me is a sign of a really good product.. when you don't really think about the warranty.


----------



## awinphoto (Nov 21, 2014)

Quackator said:


> I have almost two dozen shoe mount flashes.
> Used to have tons of Metz.
> 
> In 2006 I suggested they build a flash with manual
> ...



What flash do you have (other than their old handlemounts do you have?) I've had the 50 series flashes, 70 series flashes, etc and they all had manual power settings just like Canon flashes... Even the cheaper 54mz went from 1/1 to 1/256


----------



## Marsu42 (Nov 21, 2014)

Quackator said:


> You lose when you go to a gunfight with a toothpick. German wages were not the problem, their product
> portfolio failed big time.



I'm no expert on Metz flashes, but looking at former german companies that were driven out of the market by foreign competition this sounds reasonable. Germany engineers pride(d) themselves to build sturdy, high quality products - but tend(ed) to ignore customer's wishes if they didn't square with their ideas.

One example is that german car companies refused to add conveniences like cup holders to their cars for the simple reason that such a gadget isn't worthy of being included. Only after having severe issues selling their cars in the US they changed their policy.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 25, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Very sad day for a strobist. One of the best makers of alternative speedlites is going under.
> ...


 
Yes, its a lot like US Chapter 11, the company will re-organize and emerge again to have another try at it. This is just another example of the pains that photo equipment companies are having.


----------



## Hannes (Nov 25, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> I never bought third party strobes for Canon. Price difference for Metz strobes vs. Canon speedlites was not good enough for me to take any compatibility risks with reverse engineered third party gear. ETTL II in itself is complicated and finicky enough to avoid any additional source of problems.



Actually, afaik metz (and nissin) don't reverse engineer but licence the ettl protocol from canon which would be a reason they are more expensive as well. 

As for Chinese labour, it is now getting expensive to produce over there. I know of several smaller manufacturers in the outdoor industry that are thinking of moving their production back to Europe. It would cost virtually the same but cut lead time by months. In the coming years I expect a lot of production to start shifting to south America and the stable bits of Africa like SA.


----------



## Bennymiata (Nov 25, 2014)

My Dad used Metz's in the 50's and 60's, but I've never owned one.
They'll probably close the TV division and keep the rest of the business going, hopefully.


----------



## Maximilian (Nov 25, 2014)

Hannes said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Maximilian said:
> ...



Hello Hannes! 

Please be a little bit more *careful *when inserting a quote. 
Surely not on purpose, but you made a quote from AvTvM and by erasing the wrong lines *made it a statement said by me*, which is definetly wrong and in other cases can cause trouble for me and others. 

Thank you very much, hannes, to be aware of this in the future.

Yours,
Maximilian

PS.: It'll be best to use the preview function to check, if it's okay.


----------



## Bernd FMC (Nov 25, 2014)

My Dad an me myself used Metz Flashes in the 80s - this Flashes still work´s perfekt.
Because i was much younger, and not that much Headroom in spending Money - i´ve got only an
32CT3 with SCA311 Adapter for A-TTL with the T90 ( and an 300TL for sure 8) ) .

I am still using the Flash on my Powershot G2 - M-Mode and Sensor from the Metz ( 3 Levels ) .

Also it is still useable on DSLR for general Purposes - but no Adapter for E-TTL.

If Metz would have an Speedlite included the Slavemode via Canon´s RT System it would be
interessting for me - i search for an small Speedlite for walkaround and also for additional "Lightpoint´s"
in Multiflashsetup´s - but an 3rd 600RT ist on the Way to me ;D .

Metz was used often as a Flash in Germany, TV´s really not often seen .

But as written above, if we want to support Metz, we have to buy new one´s - but i don´t see an Metz
that matches my Wishes ?

An Hotshoeflash with E-TTL, small, aviable to bounce, any Kind of second small direct Light - or any Kind of CatchLight.
Included RT - Nice...

Second wish could be - an real powerfull Flash like the Old CT60 - the actual Flashes does not have that much Power.
An 600 EX-RT does not have 60 as a Guide Number, the Guide Number is definded as Reach using ISO100 an
Areal lighted for an 35mm Lens @ f1.0 - not for 200mm Focal : . Ok, i am old Scool ;D .

Just my 2ct´s .

OOT: German Taxes are an real Problem, actually some German Companys dont pay that much Attention on Quality because of the Cost´s, but this is the wrong Way - i suggest .

Greetings

Bernd


----------



## Marsu42 (Nov 25, 2014)

Maximilian said:


> Please be a little bit more *careful *when inserting a quote. Surely not on purpose, but you made a quote from AvTvM and by erasing the wrong lines *made it a statement said by me*, which is definetly wrong and in other cases can cause trouble for me and others.



With that kind of sensitive attitude, make sure to never look at any dynamic range or camera rumor thread  ... no, really, I'm happy at least some people around here try to have a civilized conversation.



Bernd FMC said:


> Metz was used often as a Flash in Germany, TV´s really not often seen .



But my whole childhood, I was sitting in front of a Metz tv set, that certainly leaves you with some memories :-o ... of wasted time watching god knows how many mediocre u.s. series :->



Hannes said:


> Actually, afaik metz (and nissin) don't reverse engineer but licence the ettl protocol from canon which would be a reason they are more expensive as well.



It would be even more interesting to know how many € go to Canon from any sold flash (or lens with licensed protocol) ...



Hannes said:


> As for Chinese labour, it is now getting expensive to produce over there.



... and it's getting cheaper around Europe, global competition means the end of the decadent society or (quoting a former prominent German politician) . But I imagine the main lever would be indeed faster reaction to a changing market, I hear with 3d printing the same might happen to small plastic parts.



Hannes said:


> In the coming years I expect a lot of production to start shifting to south America and the stable bits of Africa like SA.



Interesting again, thanks for the information. Thing is that you never really know - as soon as the parts are assembled on location, there's no "made in Columbia" sticker on it. Its tough even sitting in a comfy armchair, but let's face it - us having access to all these latest, cheap electronics is no welfare program.


----------



## Maximilian (Nov 25, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > Please be a little bit more *careful *when inserting a quote. Surely not on purpose, but you made a quote from AvTvM and by erasing the wrong lines *made it a statement said by me*, which is definetly wrong and in other cases can cause trouble for me and others.
> ...


Hi Marsu! 
Maybe I get you wrong here because something got lost in translation (we could switch to German  ), but I thought I was very polite and kind in correcting something I didn't say/post. (Maybe I'm too "German" on things like that)
To make it clear: I didn't want to accuse or expose Hannes! If he reads it this way, I apologize. But I think in other threads (as you pointed out) with other people this could lead to annoyance.


----------



## Marsu42 (Nov 25, 2014)

Maximilian said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Maximilian said:
> ...



No, now you mis-understood me - I think it's great you pointed out the problem in a very polite way. Its a nice difference to neighboring threads going along the line of "You're too stupid to use your camera" :-o

As for German: Being a bit lost in translation can result in a nicer conversation as people don't weigh words that much as with a native speaker, but ask if you've got it right as you just did. And I'd take a global English-writing community over a limited native photog forum any day.


----------



## Maximilian (Nov 25, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> No, now you mis-understood me - I think it's great you pointed out the problem in a very polite way.


Herzlichen Dank für die Klarstellung.

Gruß nach Berlin,
Maximilian


----------



## Bernd FMC (Nov 25, 2014)

Grüße aus Lübeck ;D

But we are in an international Forum : .

I´ve took a look on the Metz WebPage - found the 75er Flash - but only SCA and no HSS-Sync ?

Also found that SCA is still alive @ Metz, but the E-TTL Adapter seems not work with my 32CT3 :'( .

Nothing about RT-Controls - but i like RT with Flashes.

Slightly out of Topic - anyone knews an Remote Trigger for Canons RT - System, not on Cam, for any
Slave Flash - so i can use a Flash as a Slave triggered by 600 EX-RT / ST-E3RT ?


Greetings

Bernd


----------



## justaCanonuser (Nov 25, 2014)

Quackator said:


> I have almost two dozen shoe mount flashes.
> Used to have tons of Metz.
> 
> In 2006 I suggested they build a flash with manual
> ...



The Mecablitz AF 58-2 allows for those settings, so they seem to have changed that. There was another issue with their flagship flash (then, now their new AF 64 is a real gun) I once stressed in a German user review: I wrote that their old fashioned menu interfaces will blow them away from any market if they don't change it. Those old school menus really suck because you get lost if you don't use the flash everyday, want to switch into a special mode and forgot to take the manual with you. That's really bad if a flash offers so many modes and is so well customizable like this AF 58 - it's a really wonderfully performing flash. Interestingly, they modernized their interface with their recent models, so obviously they were really under pressure to move. 

Btw the recent Metz flash models, at least the more powerful ones, are fully compatible with the current Canon system. In contrast to AF performance of 3rd party lenses, compatibility here is no problem (including wireless master-slave modes). At least, I never experienced any issue, maybe a hardcore strobist may discover a more exotic one.


----------



## AvTvM (Nov 25, 2014)

Bernd FMC said:


> ...
> Nothing about RT-Controls - but i like RT with Flashes.
> 
> Slightly out of Topic - anyone knews an Remote Trigger for Canons RT - System, not on Cam, for any
> Slave Flash - so i can use a Flash as a Slave triggered by 600 EX-RT / ST-E3RT ?


Grüße aus Wien. 

Unfortunately as of today I am not aware of any Canon [radio wireless ETTL] RT-compatible tranceiver. According to flashhavor.com Chinese company Shanny seems to be working on one and possibly others too. 

If Metz were to offer a fully compatible RT-transceiver at reasonable cost, it would be the first Metz I'd ever buy. In an instant. ANd more than one. Many other Canon RT users would probably do so as well. 

It would allow us to integrate non-RT Canon speedlites [580/430] and compatible third party ETTL speedlites into an RT lighting setup - at least as slave flashes. 

However, it is probably highely unlikely that Canon would license the RT protocol to any third party manufacturer. And in Germany one cannot simply copy other companies protected designs or patents without being taken to court ... whereas in China that ain't necesarily so. Very unfair, and one of the unpleasant realities in the globalized economy.


----------



## LDS (Nov 25, 2014)

Quackator said:


> You might want to check out the Pixel mago, then.



That's exactly the reason companies like Metz can't survive - lots of cheap Chinese clones of branded units. With little R&D costs and cheap manufacturing. it's very hard to compete - especially since it's now easy to ship overseas, and most buyers looks for cheap prices above all.
Unluckily, electronics is much easier and cheaper to clone than lenses and precision mechanical parts. But wait for the mirorrless.... far less precision mechanical parts to build will open that market to cheap clones too...


----------



## Hannes (Nov 26, 2014)

Maximilian said:


> Hannes said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



Sorry about that, was doing the posting on a phone which is bloody difficult if you need to do anything more than just type a straight up response. I've fixed my post.


----------

