# Help pls. 600EX-Rt RT with Manual master & Manual slave



## Jack Douglas (Jan 28, 2016)

As I understand this, the only way I can avoid pre-flash that is scaring the dickens out of my little birds before they are captured, I need to use manual, M. I've previously tried to shut off pre-flash without success and believe it's necessary for ETTL to function, so I don't want to use ETTL.

The 2 flashes are being used for fill at reduced power and 20mm setting. They are out of reach once I'm set up. I'm using the 6D to control the master/slave via a hot shoe cable. The problem is that while I can configure the master for M and RT with the master as A (and slave as B), I can't make the slave operate in M, the mode button is inoperative.

My goal is simply to not have pre-flash and to remotely balance the two fill flashes from my camera. 6D set to M. Help please.

Jack


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## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2016)

Jack Douglas said:


> As I understand this, the only way I can avoid pre-flash that is scaring the dickens out of my little birds before they are captured, I need to use manual, M. I've previously tried to shut off pre-flash without success and believe it's necessary for ETTL to function, so I don't want to use ETTL.
> 
> The 2 flashes are being used for fill at reduced power and 20mm setting. They are out of reach once I'm set up. I'm using the 6D to control the master/slave via a hot shoe cable. The problem is that while I can configure the master for M and RT with the master as A (and slave as B), I can't make the slave operate in M, the mode button is inoperative.
> 
> ...



I have used a 600EX as a master (set not to fire) but never put it into a group. I always use my flashes in manual. Did you mean to say you have the master in Group A?


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 28, 2016)

Well first of all this is my first experience with flash since years ago and nothing as complex as these. I've done my best to work through all the menus and think I've got most of it.

My though was that the master, which is fired by the camera but corded to an unreachable location would be in group A to allow me to control it separately from the slave which would be in group B. As the sun shifts I need to balance these two out. On my 6D I observed a setting giving me control over the ratio or A to B. 

Nothing complicated, I just want to fire two flashes acting as fill _without_ any pre-flash. Since pre-flash can't be eliminated except by manual operation, that's how I ended up going Manual, although it seems to make sense to me that both flashes and camera should be in manual mode for me to be in complete control.

Jack


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 28, 2016)

Yes, a preflash is required for E-TTL.

With a master/slave setup, you'd need to specify the firing mode for the slave by setting it on the master, that's why the mode button on the slave is inoperative.

I'm a bit unsure of your configuration. If your master is connected by a long cable, what sort of cable are you using? Is it one that replicates all of the pins, or just the center one? You'd need all the pins (an E-TTL cable) even if you're in manual flash control, if you want to change the power settings from the camera.

In my case, I have an ST-E3-RT on the camera and have no problem remotely adjusting the power of four different 600s (as groups A/B/C/D) using the camera's LCD menus.


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## Wick (Jan 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yes, a preflash is required for E-TTL.
> 
> With a master/slave setup, you'd need to specify the firing mode for the slave by setting it on the master, that's why the mode button on the slave is inoperative.
> 
> ...



I think you are getting the right advice here. The cable you are using for the corded flash has to be capable of transmitting all the flash data, not just the single-pin firing pin. Many of the long cords available don't fully support all the data pins on the hot shoe.

I would suggest looking into either the STE3-RT or the Yongnuo version which I believe is the YNE3-RT. They both work fine for me and fully support what you are trying to do. With either of those you can control the mode of the remote flash from the LCD screen on the camera or from the transmitter. Once you have determined the right output for the two flashes you're all set and no need for a pre-flash.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 29, 2016)

Thanks guys, I think this is progressing for me. 

Yes I have the full function cord but I think Neuro is hitting on something pointing out that the master would now control the manual operation of the slave. However, with the units in hand right now the only choice for the slave, says ETTL and when I change setting on the master it doesn't seem to be reflected on the slave display, so how do I know what's happening. Furthermore, I want to make those power setting changes from the 6D.

Perhaps I need to be walked through the process. Both flashes were firing for me but I don't have any confidence in whether I'm getting the power I've chosen on the 6D and whether in fact the slave is no longer putting out the pre-flash given the master is set on M. In other words I'd have to spend a lot of time probably with a helper to really verify correct operation and no little birdy will model for me to detect pre-flash while a helper is there. I'm assuming pre-flash isn't detectable by human vision?

Another question is whether the flashes will necessarily shut off after an hour if I haven't taken a shot.

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 29, 2016)

I might be a dreamer but I've got my fingers crossed on the 1DX II having RT built in. If not I'd rather purchase another flash than just go with the controller since they show up used for a decent price routinely. The corded master flash is not that far away but not close enough to manipulate the buttons unless I dismount it.

Jack


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 29, 2016)

Try this: put one flash on the camera, the other nearby, power everything on. Press Link on the camera-mounted flash to set master mode (green LCD), press Link on the other flash to set slave mode (orange LCD), confirm the green LEDs are lit on both to show connected. On the camera, go to External Speedlite control > Flash function settings, select the mode box (upper left, might say E-TTL), select M then press set. Then press the shutter button, and both flashes should fire then show M as the mode (the slave will show E-TTL or whatever mode it was in until you press the shutter which transmits the current settings). Did just that with two 600's on my 1D X, worked as I stated. 

Assuming that all works as above, put your long cable between the camera hotshoe and the master flash and try the above again. If it works as above, great! You should be able to go to the External Speedlite menu and set independent power levels. If you don't get the same result, the cable is the problem.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 29, 2016)

Jack Douglas said:


> However, with the units in hand right now the only choice for the slave, says ETTL and when I change setting on the master it doesn't seem to be reflected on the slave display, so how do I know what's happening.
> 
> Jack



It won't until you fire the master.

The only settings you need to do on the slaves are tell them they are slaves and make sure they are on the same channel and ID number, after that the Master instructs the Slaves on what settings it should be and it won't show on the Slave screen until after a shot. Radio is not like the old Optical triggering where you could set up the different flashes to work differently (effectively a Group Mode workaround) in Radio the Master does everything.

It is especially cool because you can have different cameras with different mode and power settings using the same remote flashes.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 29, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Try this: put one flash on the camera, the other nearby, power everything on. Press Link on the camera-mounted flash to set master mode (green LCD), press Link on the other flash to set slave mode (orange LCD), confirm the green LEDs are lit on both to show connected. On the camera, go to External Speedlite control > Flash function settings, select the mode box (upper left, might say E-TTL), select M then press set. Then press the shutter button, and both flashes should fire then show M as the mode (the slave will show E-TTL or whatever mode it was in until you press the shutter which transmits the current settings). Did just that with two 600's on my 1D X, worked as I stated.
> 
> Assuming that all works as above, put your long cable between the camera hotshoe and the master flash and try the above again. If it works as above, great! You should be able to go to the External Speedlite menu and set independent power levels. If you don't get the same result, the cable is the problem.




Ah, perfect. I'm pretty sure it'll work and I assume you're suggesting in all this that operation is 100% manual, so no pre-flash. FWIW I suffer from chronic headaches, which always get much worse when I have to start battling with manuals and trial and error fiddling. Good man, thanks ever so much!

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 29, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> Jack Douglas said:
> 
> 
> > However, with the units in hand right now the only choice for the slave, says ETTL and when I change setting on the master it doesn't seem to be reflected on the slave display, so how do I know what's happening.
> ...



Thanks for this. The various bits of information help in acquiring a basic understanding of what's going on, which is always better than simple rules when it comes to replicating it at a much later date. I now have faith that the master is in control and knows what he's doing. 

Jack


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## midluk (Jan 29, 2016)

Jack Douglas said:


> Another question is whether the flashes will necessarily shut off after an hour if I haven't taken a shot.


This is influenced by C.Fn-10 and C.Fn-11.
After the time set in C.Fn-10 (60min or 10min) the slave powers off the actual flash unit and just leaves the wireless communication active. If I remember correctly the time begins as soon as the master goes into standyb and stops wireless communication. As soon as the master reenables communication (e.g. partial press of shutter button on the camera) the slave wakes up again, recharges its capacitor and is ready for flashing again. The big red light on the master only lights up to tell you it is ready after all the slaves are ready again.
Then after the time set in C.Fn-11 (8h or 1h) the slave will also power off the wireless communication and you have to wake it up manually at the flash.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 29, 2016)

Thanks for that information also! I was close to assuming what you describe but not sure and insecurity is not a good thing!  Makes sense that it should wake up rather than making me keep climbing a ladder. 

Jack


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## mrzero (Jan 29, 2016)

Jack Douglas said:


> I'm assuming pre-flash isn't detectable by human vision?



No, you can see it. They are just low-power flashes that precede the actual flash.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 29, 2016)

Thanks for that. I'm learning every day.

Jack


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