# Poll: What Do You Think About the EOS Canon 6D Mark II?



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 29, 2017)

```
<p>Now that we’ve seen Canon’s latest entry level full frame DSLR, it’s time to let us know what you think. We always hear all sorts of opinions after a product is announced, and the EOS 6D Mark II is no exception. We agree with some gripes, but not with others.</p>
<p>Cast your vote on the three polls below.</p>
<p><iframe width="100%" height="735px" scrolling="no" style="border: none;" src="https://www.opinionstage.com/polls/2448955/poll" frameBorder="0" name="os_frame" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe></p>

<p><iframe width="100%" height="678px" scrolling="no" style="border: none;" src="https://www.opinionstage.com/polls/2448953/poll" frameBorder="0" name="os_frame" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe></p>

<p><iframe width="100%" height="734px" scrolling="no" style="border: none;" src="https://www.opinionstage.com/polls/2448958/poll" frameBorder="0" name="os_frame" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe></p>

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## chrysoberyl (Jun 29, 2017)

130 people or trolls are leaving Canon?! OK, 2 people and a bunch of trolls. I hope the trolls leave this forum, too.


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## BeenThere (Jun 29, 2017)

Biggest gripe could be in a different category once the real world reviews are in. For instance, what is level of high ISO image noise? Is DR similar to the 5D4? etc.

Feature set seems to me to be well balanced for an entry level FF DSLR. Not trying to start a flame war, just stating an opinion.


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## StudentOfLight (Jun 29, 2017)

I was expecting image quality improvements comparable to the 5D-IV vs 5D-III improvement. Based on DPReview article/samples this appears not to be the case. At least Canon makes the decision of not-to-buy something very easy.


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## amorse (Jun 29, 2017)

BeenThere said:


> Biggest gripe could be in a different category once the real world reviews are in. For instance, what is level of high ISO image noise? Is DR similar to the 5D4? etc.
> 
> Feature set seems to me to be well balanced for an entry level FF DSLR. Not trying to start a flame war, just stating an opinion.


Agreed, I need to see the DR performance first. That is definitely number 1 on my concern list. For me, everything else looks great and if the DR was at 5D IV or better I'd pre-order immediately. After the DPR article I am waiting for some in depth reviews.


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## ethanz (Jun 29, 2017)

chrysoberyl said:


> 130 people or trolls are leaving Canon?! OK, 2 people and a bunch of trolls. I hope the trolls leave this forum, too.



A poll option of "I'm leaving Canon!" is just asking for trolls. I'll admit I was a little cheeky and hit that response.


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## Ozarker (Jun 29, 2017)

jayt567 said:


> chrysoberyl said:
> 
> 
> > 130 people or trolls are leaving Canon?! OK, 2 people and a bunch of trolls. I hope the trolls leave this forum, too.
> ...



Why do some people who have a negative opinion of *a* Canon feature say they are jumping ship? Because they are trolls. At the least they are brats.

Not everyone, as you state, that has a negative opinion of a Canon feature is called a troll. The trolls are the people always claiming they are going to leave because Canon doesn't innovate etc... never leave. They keep coming back to the forum to troll. 

The trolls are those who expect Canon to make a camera just for them. Forget profits and the market.


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## dak723 (Jun 29, 2017)

jayt567 said:


> chrysoberyl said:
> 
> 
> > 130 people or trolls are leaving Canon?! OK, 2 people and a bunch of trolls. I hope the trolls leave this forum, too.
> ...



No one ever labels *everyone* who has a negative opinion of Canon a troll. Anyone who gives rational opinions and can express them without whining like a 7 year old is clearly not a troll. Unfortunately, many of the naysayers do fall into the troll category.

Now that Canon is using on sensor adc, there should no doubt be an improvement in noise and DR.

Pulling the low pass filter on a 26 MP camera would be a big mistake. As pixels get smaller, there is less chance of moire, but the pixels on the 6D are still fairly large.


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## Bernard (Jun 29, 2017)

My biggest (and only) gripe is the lack of interchangeable screens, but I wasn't given that option to choose that, ironically.


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## Barbu64 (Jun 29, 2017)

jayt567 said:


> chrysoberyl said:
> 
> 
> > 130 people or trolls are leaving Canon?! OK, 2 people and a bunch of trolls. I hope the trolls leave this forum, too.
> ...


I'm one of those that didn't just vote, but already bought another brand (three weeks ago, and still thrilled about it).
But still, the 6DmkII looks fine to me; but I'm just using my DSLRs (3 now, and had 2 more which I already sold) for photography.
For the life of me, I really don't get how a basic camera has the main fault the lack of 4K. Do you fault the 200D for not having a full-frame sensor?
Also, a lot of people are taking issue with the fact that it doesn't have dual memory slots; again, in a basic camera it's weird to ask for more. If anything, I'm amazed that fewer people chose the „UHS-I” as a potential fault; the buffer limit is occuring way more often than a card fault that would be saved by the second slot.


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## paxfoto (Jun 29, 2017)

AF spread is a big issue for me. I'm a bit tired on focus and compose and hearing the number of AF points I was really set to buy this to replace my 5D classic.

But right now I have decided not to buy it. But I will wait for the reviews and then try it in a shop before making the final decision.

I will probably end up with a Sony A7 III.


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## miketcool (Jun 29, 2017)

I'm super happy with this announcement. I can use this as my backup body because it shoots 4K time-lapse video, cutting my workflow down significantly.

If you're complaining about lack of 4K video because Sony is doing it, lookup how the heat issues in their tiny mirrorless cameras are effecting their reliability. Overheating and heat related malfunctioning is causing professionals to rethink their purchases. If I want a serious 4K camera to shoot LOG, I want to make sure that it won't cause premature death or failure to the device keeping food on my table. This is an excellent update for a very lightweight companion to my Canon 5Dmkiv. Great work!


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## Deleted member 91053 (Jun 29, 2017)

For me and my uses this (6D2) looks like a VERY significant upgrade over the Mk1!

On paper, the frame rate, goodly number of cross type AF points, potentially better sensor etc look great. Remember that I am looking at the 6D2 as, primarily, a landscape/travel camera. Whilst the 6D was pretty good for this sort of thing the Mk2 makes it a very much better backup for my primary use - namely wildlife.

For me all the Wi Fi, GPS, video, BlueTooth twoddle is simply irrelevant - don't know how to turn it on and don't want to find out. I just regret the funds spent on R&D for these "Features" that I have to pay for.

The single card slot is not an issue for me (yet, touch wood, to have a card fail) but I would have preferred double CF card slots - either way so long as it has a decent buffer I don't care.

I wouldn't normally want a flippy screen but currently I have fluid on my right knee so I will revise that opinion!

I am sure that some reviewers/owners will find aspects of this camera that will be below par and other aspects that are top drawer - I will wait and see but it is looking promising so far for me and my uses.


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## Jopa (Jun 29, 2017)

chrysoberyl said:


> 130 people or trolls are leaving Canon?! OK, 2 people and a bunch of trolls. I hope the trolls leave this forum, too.



Lots of trolls indeed. The camera is quite awesome.
I'm wondering if continuous AF works in LV via DPAF for stills? If that's the case - the limited PDAF sensor size is not a huge deal.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 29, 2017)

I've pre-ordered one to hold my place while I look at the 80D and 5D MK IV. I was able to use a demo 80D today, I brought a SD card and CF card to my local camera store and took a dozen shots using the 18-55mm lens on the camera. I was impressed by the responsiveness of the DPAF as well as the standard PDAF. It was not a thorough test. I just finished reviewing the images and they were as expected. The lens had noticeable CA's even at f/5.6, but at a normal magnification, they were fine.

I need to review the specifications closely to see how they would work for me. The camera was small, but felt solid.

The store was out of 5D MK IV's, so I may try a different store in a few days. I'm tempted to get a 80D, but would then spend another several hundred to get a wider lens which I would not need with a 6D II, so my total cost would be close to the same.

I went to a local photo swap last night, just a few sellers, and fewer customers. I noticed a D800E for sale, in original box, along with about 8 or 9 lenses. $1000 asking price for the 800E. I guess its old now, that had not sunk in.


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## magarity (Jun 29, 2017)

The "will you buy one" wants an option for "yes but not until next year or 18 months when it goes on special". I got 6D about a year ago and just can't justify replacing a perfectly good camera so quickly.


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## David_B (Jun 30, 2017)

I've been reading lots of posts on this website about the 6D Mark II and decided to write first post for this poll.

This camera looks good but who is it for?

Right now I have the 80D and iPhone 7. My iPhone is perfect for all of my "on-the-go" photos, including birthdays, etc, and if I want to be a little more serious, the 80D is giving me lovely images. The 6D Mark II will need to offer much more impressive images for me to upgrade from the 80D. If I was still using the 70D or 7D Mark II or some earlier Canon camera, sure I will upgrade to 6D Mark II but with the 80D, I don't need it.

When I shoot video, I'm never using my 80D, just the iPhone, same as my friends that do video. I'm thinking that the video train has already left the station and Canon is still standing on the platform. So I don't mind no 4K in the 6D Mark II.

I think this Canon camera is just for people that already own Canon and want to stay with Canon. It doesn't have good video to make people give up another camera or brand for this one if they do video and nobody that use other brand for photos is going to move for it because they already got good images too.

This is perfect camera for people that already own earlier Canon cameras and want to upgrade or have bigger Canon cameras and want to add something else (the flip-panel for video is something that more expensive cameras don't do.)

Hope that's all ok.


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## jd7 (Jun 30, 2017)

Nothing on the list of gripes is anything I'm really worried. I nearly voted for the AF point spread issue, but when you look at diagrams/pics which seem to show the AF point spread isn't really too different from other (Canon) full-frame cameras, it's hard to see it as a real problem. I ended up voting for the UHS-1 slot (as a gripe, I mean) because I guess if it was faster it should mean you could should longer bursts before the camera slowed down, but really I just shouldn't have voted for a gripe, given the options.

My real gripe is the lack of a joystick. No, I didn't expect the 6DII would get one. Yes, I can see Canon seems to be reserving that for 1-series, 5 series and 7 series. And I've seen others say it wouldn't have been possible/practical to include a joystick as well as the flippy screen (I think the argument is it wouldn't have been possible without increasing the size of the camera). Personally though, if I had the choice I'd take a joystick over the flippy screen without hesitating. I realise not everyone will feel the same about that.

Anyway, the 6DII is sounding really good to me overall. I will wait for reviews from independent reviewers, but I expect it will end up on my shopping list at some point.


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## Sarpedon (Jun 30, 2017)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Why do some people who have a negative opinion of *a* Canon feature say they are jumping ship? Because they are trolls. At the least they are brats.
> 
> Not everyone, as you state, that has a negative opinion of a Canon feature is called a troll. The trolls are the people always claiming they are going to leave because Canon doesn't innovate etc... never leave. They keep coming back to the forum to troll.
> 
> The trolls are those who expect Canon to make a camera just for them. Forget profits and the market.



I think this forum has another problem not quite but almost as big as the "trolls", who are quite real and quite annoying. It's the people who almost as mindlessly defend any choice Canon makes, and who have the nasty habit of feeding those selfsame trolls by responding repeatedly and angrily to every single one of them--or even bemoaning the trolls before they've actually appeared on a thread. I think some of Canon's zealous defenders on this board are a bit too zealous, and should consider their own behavior and the effect it has on the atmosphere on this forum. To those people I say: take a deep breath, don't feed the trolls, don't condescend and insult, and don't treat every complaint as if it comes from the keyboard of a troll. 

I'm considering jumping ship myself. I shoot a lot of manual focus and wide aperture lenses, and with the 6D Mark II, Canon (like Nikon), has shown that it isn't friendly to photographers who shoot that way. So I'm in the sad position of considering a switch to Sony, which means dealing with all of their problems (battery life, haptics, slow response time, etc). I'm an experienced photographer and I know what I'm doing. I'm going to take a long time to see the reviews and consider my options, but I may very well jump ship over this one issue. And I also happen to think that Canon should have included 4K, even though I don't shoot and don't care about video. So, am I a troll?



Bernard said:


> My biggest (and only) gripe is the lack of interchangeable screens, but I wasn't given that option to choose that, ironically.



Yeah, this is my biggest gripe, too.



Barbu64 said:


> Also, a lot of people are taking issue with the fact that it doesn't have dual memory slots; again, in a basic camera it's weird to ask for more. If anything, I'm amazed that fewer people chose the „UHS-I” as a potential fault; the buffer limit is occuring way more often than a card fault that would be saved by the second slot.



I actually think this is a fair complaint. Nikon offers dual slots on both the D610 and the D750, the 6D II's most obvious competitors. It's not really a basic camera, and Canon knows that a lot of pros and aspiring pros will use it, as they did the original 6D.


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## duppencf (Jun 30, 2017)

Good updates...my next body is likely to be A7 III or A7r II, but I will keep my 6D around for now. Waiting for DR and ISO performance, which could swing me back this way if it's really outstanding.

I'm not a troll and I picked the "leaving canon" option. Nothing wrong with the camera, just that the competition is doing a lot right now compared to this.


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## timmy_650 (Jun 30, 2017)

It looks like a good upgrade but I don't know if it will be worth the money to upgrade from my 6D. I will be ever inserted in the sensor performance.


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## Jopa (Jun 30, 2017)

David_B said:


> I'm thinking that the video train has already left the station and Canon is still standing on the platform.



Actually Canon's DPAF alone is huge if you shoot video.


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## TheIndividual (Jun 30, 2017)

My biggest gripe is 98% viewfinder coverage. 
For $2000 camera, I would have expected to see the full 100% view in its viewfinder. 

There is nothing more irritating in the field to tightly compose an image, only to find out later that there is something on the boundary of the picture which spoils the composition and ultimately the whole picture. 
And the worst thing is that even if you try to retake the picture, you still do not know whether you are fixing the problem or not.

Granted, those things can be cropped later in post-processing. But I prefer to take a perfect composition, and use post-processing for adding colors or effects. 

Why doesn't Canon make a perfect DSLR camera knowing fully well that these few years are make or break for them? 
If it keeps scrimping on each of its low-end DSLR, it will loose them to Sony mirrorless. 
And once you leave the ecosystem, you don't come back to buy higher end systems.


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## Isaacheus (Jun 30, 2017)

Jopa said:


> David_B said:
> 
> 
> > I'm thinking that the video train has already left the station and Canon is still standing on the platform.
> ...



The dpaf looks really good, which is why I'm so confused about the video specs. I'm hoping it's really a downsampled 3 or 4k to give nice crispness, although I think I saw the bitrate was quite low?


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## unfocused (Jun 30, 2017)

jayt567 said:


> ...I would also love to see vCanon pull the low pass filter on these cameras. At the bery least the 7D series, as a camera designed for sports and wildlife, every bit of sharpness counts...



Won't happen. Bird feathers are too susceptible to moire and birders represent a sizeable portion of the 7D market.


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## unfocused (Jun 30, 2017)

10 p.m. Central time: 6DII is #3 on the Amazon DSLR Best Seller's list. 

That's the poll that Canon cares about.


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## transpo1 (Jun 30, 2017)

chrysoberyl said:


> 130 people or trolls are leaving Canon?! OK, 2 people and a bunch of trolls. I hope the trolls leave this forum, too.



Haha, how do you know they're trolls? Because they disagree with you? :


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## honestlo (Jun 30, 2017)

Wait another 4 years to see weather Mark III will come 4K video or 1080p !


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## transpo1 (Jun 30, 2017)

Sarpedon said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Why do some people who have a negative opinion of *a* Canon feature say they are jumping ship? Because they are trolls. At the least they are brats.
> ...



Well said.


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## tommychan (Jun 30, 2017)

Missing 4K video is indeed disappointing. However if it does HDR video and upgradable with Clog support I will forgive not having 4K


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## SecureGSM (Jun 30, 2017)

a note, if I may: do you know that you can set your RAW processor to crop all images on import to 98% to match OVF coverage automaticaly? that way you do not have to worry about fixing your composition and get to concentrate on your colours and effects instead?
hint: default profile.



TheIndividual said:


> My biggest gripe is 98% viewfinder coverage.
> For $2000 camera, I would have expected to see the full 100% view in its viewfinder.
> 
> There is nothing more irritating in the field to tightly compose an image, only to find out later that there is something on the boundary of the picture which spoils the composition and ultimately the whole picture.
> ...


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## photojoern.de (Jun 30, 2017)

> AF spread is a big issue for me. I'm a bit tired on focus and compose and hearing the number of AF points I was really set to buy this to replace my 5D classic.
> 
> But right now I have decided not to buy it. But I will wait for the reviews and then try it in a shop before making the final decision.
> 
> I will probably end up with a Sony A7 III.



This is exactly what I am really really frustrated about. Try doing a portrait shot and apply the rule of thirds, as a simple compositional approach. The eyes of the subject will be outside the AF points of Canon (and probably Nikon) cameras. You have to focus and recompose. Do this with a f1,4 lens and open aperture and you have such a narrow depth of field that during the time you compose, your distance camera-subject will change slightly and the eyes will be slightly out of focus. And also the moment is probably gone.

I hate this. I simply hate this. This is why i voted that I will probably leave Canon to go for Sony, although I have shot with Canon gear for over 30 years. And although I don´t like the ergonomics of a7 and a9 cameras, just too small. But that´s it.


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## Ian_of_glos (Jun 30, 2017)

transpo1 said:


> chrysoberyl said:
> 
> 
> > 130 people or trolls are leaving Canon?! OK, 2 people and a bunch of trolls. I hope the trolls leave this forum, too.
> ...


It is because their registered address is:
Under the bridge, between Goat Farm and Goat Meadow.


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## tron (Jun 30, 2017)

How about another selection" I will not buy 6DII because I have a 5DIV or 5DsR or 1DxII, etc
Just answering "I will not buy 6DII" gives the wrong impression...

Also I selected the resolution increase because it was sensor related but what I really meant was improved sensor in general (noise, dr, etc)


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## tron (Jun 30, 2017)

photojoern.de said:


> > AF spread is a big issue for me. I'm a bit tired on focus and compose and hearing the number of AF points I was really set to buy this to replace my 5D classic.
> >
> > But right now I have decided not to buy it. But I will wait for the reviews and then try it in a shop before making the final decision.
> >
> ...


A9 costs more than 5DIV which has wider AF spread than 6DII...


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## StudentOfLight (Jun 30, 2017)

photojoern.de said:


> > AF spread is a big issue for me. I'm a bit tired on focus and compose and hearing the number of AF points I was really set to buy this to replace my 5D classic.
> >
> > But right now I have decided not to buy it. But I will wait for the reviews and then try it in a shop before making the final decision.
> >
> ...


Have you tried live-view with dual-pixel autofocus? It covers much larger portion of the image frame and is very precise.


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## Billybob (Jun 30, 2017)

jayt567 said:


> chrysoberyl said:
> 
> 
> > 130 people or trolls are leaving Canon?! OK, 2 people and a bunch of trolls. I hope the trolls leave this forum, too.
> ...



Not always but frequently, and it's not just here. Try criticizing a Canon product on DPR.

I've owned 8 or 9 Canon DSLRs since 2003 (the original DRebel, 300D, I believe). I've been shooting dual system since 2009. I haven't completely switched because I love Canon lenses and prefer Canon ergonomics to Nikon. 

I was looking forward to the 6DMII. I just have the 80D and was looking forward to adding a FF body. Although I may still buy the 6D, I am disturbed by allegations--there has been no systematic testing, so this is all rumor--that Canon intentionally crippled IQ and performance. There is no way that this new sensor should produce IQ that is inferior to the 5DMIV's. Yes, the 6D's resolution should be marginally lower, but DR, noise and high ISO performance should be on par or even marginally to noticeably better than the 5D's. 

More disturbing, I heard reports that DPAF performance has been scaled back. The report I saw suggests that it doesn't track as well as the 5D's, and it perhaps doesn't lock on to targets as well. If true, I find such intentional gimping--because I doubt that there are technical reasons for these deficiencies--deplorable. I understand product differentiation, so no 4k, reduced AF point spread, slower burst rate/weaker buffer, lower max shutter speed, etc., is expected. But Canon has never to my knowledge intentionally sabotaged the IQ in a camera. It has always released new cameras, even when part of a lower tier, with the best IQ available even if it means that a Rebel has better IQ than an XXD camera or the 6D has better IQ in some regards than the 5DMIII. I hope that this practice hasn't changed. 

But, perhaps, Canon has learned a lesson from Nikon about overlapping features between different Camera tiers. Nikon released the D3, its professional-grade camera, and the D700, an enthusiast camera, around the same time. These cameras had the same sensor and produced the same IQ. The D3 had a faster burst rate and perhaps modestly better AF. Working pros purchased the $3000+ D700 in droves at the expense of sales of the $5000+ flagship camera. In fact, the D700 became the de facto wedding camera, and to this day, many pros keep a D700 as part of their kit. Today, Nikon insures that there is little overlap between cameras. 

I guess that's what we're seeing from Canon. But if IQ has become the distinguishing factor, Canon can go forward without me.


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## chrysoberyl (Jun 30, 2017)

transpo1 said:


> chrysoberyl said:
> 
> 
> > 130 people or trolls are leaving Canon?! OK, 2 people and a bunch of trolls. I hope the trolls leave this forum, too.
> ...



Not at all! I rarely state opinions. I view a troll as one who presents a very negative attitude, is not open to other opinions and sometimes facts, and does not contribute constructively to the conversation. The 6D II seems to have brought them out from under their bridges.

I do apologize for whining about trolls.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 30, 2017)

Billybob said:


> I've owned 8 or 9 Canon DSLRs since 2003 (the original DRebel, 300D, I believe). I've been shooting dual system since 2009. I haven't completely switched because I love Canon lenses and prefer Canon ergonomics to Nikon.
> 
> I was looking forward to the 6DMII. I just have the 80D and was looking forward to adding a FF body. Although I may still buy the 6D, I am disturbed by allegations--there has been no systematic testing, so this is all rumor--that Canon intentionally crippled IQ and performance. There is no way that this new sensor should produce IQ that is inferior to the 5DMIV's. Yes, the 6D's resolution should be marginally lower, but DR, noise and high ISO performance should be on par or even marginally to noticeably better than the 5D's.
> 
> ...



I read a rumor that Canon crippled the 6DII's IQ and performance just to piss off a forum poster poster named Billybob. If true, I find that very disturbing. But it's still just a rumor.


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## bereninga (Jun 30, 2017)

Canon really put themselves in a tough spot with the 6D product. It had the AF of the 5DII and better IQ than the 5DIII. If the 6DII inherited the 5DIII AF system while getting better IQ than the 5DIV, why would anyone get the 5DIV? Just for 4K and dual slots and a joystick? If the 6DII really has worse IQ than the 5DIV that would be really disappointing.


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## tron (Jun 30, 2017)

bereninga said:


> Canon really put themselves in a tough spot with the 6D product. It had the AF of the 5DII and better IQ than the 5DIII. If the 6DII inherited the 5DIII AF system while getting better IQ than the 5DIV, why would anyone get the 5DIV? Just for 4K and dual slots and a joystick? If the 6DII really has worse IQ than the 5DIV that would be really disappointing.


If 6D2 had 4K, dual slots, 1/200 flash sync, joystick and large area AF it would be a 5D4!!! However it is Canon's policy (as per Canon's CEO) that they always use the best sensor available in new cameras. So let's wait and see...


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## Billybob (Jun 30, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Billybob said:
> 
> 
> > I've owned 8 or 9 Canon DSLRs since 2003 (the original DRebel, 300D, I believe). I've been shooting dual system since 2009. I haven't completely switched because I love Canon lenses and prefer Canon ergonomics to Nikon.
> ...



Lol!


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## tron (Jun 30, 2017)

Well the lack of 4K shooting makes me sad in the way that I will not shoot 4K video while in the Full HD only cameras I just didn't shoot ... 2K (as I didn't shot 720p, etc) ;D ;D ;D


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## mashuto (Jun 30, 2017)

Billybob said:


> jayt567 said:
> 
> 
> > chrysoberyl said:
> ...



At this point, I don't know what is true or what isn't. However, I read the article on DPReview, where there was one sentence that worries me



> According to Canon representatives, the 6D Mark II should outperform the original 6D (which it very evidently does) but may not offer the same kind of dynamic range and absolute resolution of the EOS 5D Mark IV.



Well in terms of absolute resolution... duh, I mean 30mp vs 26mp. But the dynamic range claim worries me as the 5DMKIV has about a stop and a half improvement over the 6D. So, does this essentially mean that the MKII will have less than a full stop improvement? Or even less? Even with them saying that it will outperform the original 6D, will it really be enough to be noticeable?

I have been a happy owner of the original 6D for 4 and a half years now, so I was about ready for an upgrade, and the 6D2 has enough features to me that I would be happy with it, but ISO performance and improved DR are very important to me to the point that if they are only very marginally better then I am not sure the rest of the upgrades are worth the full asking price.

I preordered because I like a lot of the upgrades (and dont care about 4k video, or any video at all) but it was also under the assumption that it would be similar to the original 6D and 5DIII releases. Where ISO performance and DR were matched, if not slightly better on the 6D due to it being a newer sensor. So the assumption was that ISO performance and DR would match the 5D4, which would make me a happy campter along with the rest of the features. It seems like I may have assumed incorrectly. And that would be extremely disappointing if Canon intentionally developed a worse performing sensor.

But, I know at this point its all rumors, though having a statement supposedly coming directly from a canon rep is a bit concerning. Either way, hopefully some actual reviews and sensor benchmarks will come out before the camera starts shipping so I can determine if keeping my preorder is worth it or if I should cancel. Because at the end of the day, as nice as these features are, for what I shoot, I dont feel limited at all by the 6D. The upgraded features are all things that would be nice to have, but if image quality isnt a noticeable step up, then just not sure its what I am looking for right now.


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## SecureGSM (Jun 30, 2017)

why not upgrade to Canon 5D IV body instead? I feel your pain and likely in the same boat. Ultimatelly, I am going to replace one of my 6D bodies with 5D IV and keep the second one for time being and replace with 6D II in about a year from now when prices settled down a bit. Therefore, I will use my Cam #1 for wide aperture portraiture shots and cam #2 when I have to use both. Typically for run and gun situations shooting with 24-70/2.8 zoom+ 70-200/2.8 zooms.

I have posted this image before, but 5D IV AF system covers rule of thirds situation nicely. have another thought perhaps?




photojoern.de said:


> > AF spread is a big issue for me. I'm a bit tired on focus and compose and hearing the number of AF points I was really set to buy this to replace my 5D classic.
> >
> > But right now I have decided not to buy it. But I will wait for the reviews and then try it in a shop before making the final decision.
> >
> ...


----------



## SecureGSM (Jun 30, 2017)

Are you saying that I can actualy shoot video with my 6d bodies? Wow. You are kidding me! I am off to RTFM. talk soon 



tron said:


> Well the lack of 4K shooting makes me sad in the way that I will not shoot 4K video while in the Full HD only cameras I just didn't shoot ... 2K (as I didn't shot 720p, etc) ;D ;D ;D


----------



## mashuto (Jun 30, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> why not upgrade to Canon 5D IV body instead? I feel your pain and likely in the same boat. Ultimatelly, I am going to replace one of my 6D bodies with 5D IV and keep the second one for time being and replace with 6D II in about a year from now when prices settled down a bit. Therefore, I will use my Cam #1 for wide aperture portraiture shots and cam #2 when I have to use both. Typically for run and gun situations shooting with 24-70/2.8 zoom+ 70-200/2.8 zooms.



The 5d4 certainly has pretty much everything I would want from a current canon camera without any real compromises, but its also quite a bit more expensive and has a lot of additional features I dont need or care about. The original 6D hit the sweet spot for me in terms of image quality and price (while lacking slightly on features), and the MKII hits the sweet spot even more in terms of price/features. But if the image quality is not enough of an improvement, then the price is a bit high to me for some upgraded features that are not super critical to me. And the 5d4 is obviously just even more.

Photography is just a hobby for me, and one I don't participate in nearly as much as I would like, so even though I have already spent a ton of money on equipment (and can afford to) I still have a limit, and the 5d4 is just over that limit (even though I could afford it too)... who knows, maybe Ill change my mind...


----------



## ecka (Jun 30, 2017)

I think I'll wait until 6D Mark II price drops by $300-$400 or Sony makes a better camera (A7III) for that price.


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## tron (Jun 30, 2017)

mashuto said:


> SecureGSM said:
> 
> 
> > why not upgrade to Canon 5D IV body instead? I feel your pain and likely in the same boat. Ultimatelly, I am going to replace one of my 6D bodies with 5D IV and keep the second one for time being and replace with 6D II in about a year from now when prices settled down a bit. Therefore, I will use my Cam #1 for wide aperture portraiture shots and cam #2 when I have to use both. Typically for run and gun situations shooting with 24-70/2.8 zoom+ 70-200/2.8 zooms.
> ...


I believe 5D4 covers your needs so maybe searching for a grey market model or waiting for some rebates could be the solution...


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## mashuto (Jun 30, 2017)

tron said:


> I believe 5D4 covers your needs so maybe searching for a grey market model or waiting for some rebates could be the solution...



Maybe, though truthfully the 6DII offers pretty much everything I need as well, with the exception being that I just dont know yet about ISO performance and DR. Beyond that, the 5D4 doesn't really offer too much extra that I am personally interested in, except maybe the little bit of extra resolution. So, for me, I am still not sure I would be able to find a 5d4 for cheap enough to be worth it for me. Not entirely sure how I feel about gray market or getting a used body, and I think to get the price down enough for me is just not something that will happen for quite some time.

Still, have a few weeks at least to consider whether I want to cancel my 6DII preorder or not.


----------



## nc0b (Jun 30, 2017)

I paid $1800 for a 6D soon after it came out, while my brother bought one for $999 six months ago. Between my 6D and my 5DsR I have no reason to spend another $2000 now for a third FF body. I don't think my hardware is a significant limitation to my hobby.


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## jedy (Jun 30, 2017)

Tbh, the 6DII not having 4K is actually no big deal. Anyone who needs 4K i.e. serious filmmakers, won't be buying a camera that doesn't allow you to get a clean hdmi output to a broadcast standard external monitor/recorder. Saying that, it's a shame Canon are not competing with the likes of Sony and Panasonic for professional video. Any talk about not wanting to harm sales of their cine cameras is just b******s as they are in a completely different price bracket that are unaffordable for many.


----------



## canonic (Jun 30, 2017)

jedy said:


> Tbh, the 6DII not having 4K is actually no big deal. Anyone who needs 4K i.e. serious filmmakers, won't be buying a camera that doesn't allow you to get a clean hdmi output to a broadcast standard external monitor/recorder. Saying that, it's a shame Canon are not competing with the likes of Sony and Panasonic for professional video. Any talk about not wanting to harm sales of their cine cameras is just b******s as they are in a completely different price bracket that are unaffordable for many.


Why everyone thinks that between cats/kids "videographers" and "serious filmmakers" is nothing???


----------



## canonic (Jun 30, 2017)

Jopa said:


> David_B said:
> 
> 
> > I'm thinking that the video train has already left the station and Canon is still standing on the platform.
> ...



In this regards, Canon 6D2 is like a hero samurai, but blind and old and poor and ... alone 8) 

Edit: Canon with Canon 6D2


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 30, 2017)

canonic said:


> In this regards, Canon is like a hero samurai, but blind and old and poor and ... alone 8)



No, rich. Very rich.


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## SecureGSM (Jun 30, 2017)

ok. got it. well, take a closer look at the AF points overlay of the 6D II. you can certainly compose with 45AF points provided (just) whilst satisfying rule of thirds at the same time. it depends how quickly you have to move AF point selection across the frame. if you can spare a few seconds, then you are at luck as the dial/wheel AF selection likely takes not longer than 3-5 seconds? if you are in an absolute run and gun situation, then AF point selection joystick gets you there much faster. I hope it helps.



mashuto said:


> SecureGSM said:
> 
> 
> > why not upgrade to Canon 5D IV body instead? I feel your pain and likely in the same boat. Ultimatelly, I am going to replace one of my 6D bodies with 5D IV and keep the second one for time being and replace with 6D II in about a year from now when prices settled down a bit. Therefore, I will use my Cam #1 for wide aperture portraiture shots and cam #2 when I have to use both. Typically for run and gun situations shooting with 24-70/2.8 zoom+ 70-200/2.8 zooms.
> ...


----------



## canonic (Jun 30, 2017)

canonic said:


> Jopa said:
> 
> 
> > David_B said:
> ...



Kai brought this to the point:
*WHY???* 
https://youtu.be/0crokqG2uYg?t=410

Apropos ... you can whatch it in *4K*  ;D  8)


----------



## Khalai (Jun 30, 2017)

canonic said:


> Kai brought this to the point:
> *WHY???*
> https://youtu.be/0crokqG2uYg?t=410
> 
> Apropos ... you can whatch it in *4K*  ;D  8)



Saw that yesterday. Absolutely hysterical and ingenious. Kai & Gordon went viral


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## mashuto (Jun 30, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> ok. got it. well, take a closer look at the AF points overlay of the 6D II. you can certainly compose with 45AF points provided (just) whilst satisfying rule of thirds at the same time. it depends how quickly you have to move AF point selection across the frame. if you can spare a few seconds, then you are at luck as the dial/wheel AF selection likely takes not longer than 3-5 seconds? if you are in an absolute run and gun situation, then AF point selection joystick gets you there much faster. I hope it helps.



I think you may have been responding to someone else originally about the AF points. For me, the AF isnt a huge "issue". I know that coverage is small, but for most of what I shoot I have been more than ok with focus and recompose. So the upgraded system should be more than enough for my needs and will be a rather large upgrade from the current 6D system.

As I said earlier, my biggest concern is still down to ISO and DR performance, since there has been nothing said about that yet, other than the one statement I saw in that dpreview article where a canon rep said it may not be as good as the 5d4. And with the margin already fairly slim, my concern is that it might not be enough of an improvement to either be noticeable or worth it for me.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 30, 2017)

I suspect that lifting the 80D AF and putting it into the 6D MK II is a typical cost cutting measure. Canon saved money on firmware development, the hardware, of course, stocking of spare parts, and tools to calibrate and adjust AF which are in maintenance shops around the world. The savings are probably pretty substantial when you look at the volume of sales. Its just the typical Canon formula that has pushed them to the top of the heap, produce a good but not best product for a low price and high profit, provide good customer service, and money seems to flow in by the boat load. If Sony ever got serious about producing cameras and lenses, they might take over quickly, but their designs are difficult to make and repair, and their prices far too high.

Sony still has the attitude that buyers will pay more because "Its a Sony" It has not helped them as much as lower prices has helped Canon. Even so, In the US and many parts of the world, the weaker Yen helps keep prices low ans sales are rising.

BTW, Sony is investing in another Growth Industry - Vinyl Records!


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## rfdesigner (Jul 1, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I suspect that lifting the 80D AF and putting it into the 6D MK II is a typical cost cutting measure. Canon saved money on firmware development, the hardware, of course, stocking of spare parts, and tools to calibrate and adjust AF which are in maintenance shops around the world. The savings are probably pretty substantial when you look at the volume of sales. Its just the typical Canon formula that has pushed them to the top of the heap, produce a good but not best product for a low price and high profit, provide good customer service, and money seems to flow in by the boat load. If Sony ever got serious about producing cameras and lenses, they might take over quickly, but their designs are difficult to make and repair, and their prices far too high.
> 
> Sony still has the attitude that buyers will pay more because "Its a Sony" It has not helped them as much as lower prices has helped Canon. Even so, In the US and many parts of the world, the weaker Yen helps keep prices low ans sales are rising.
> 
> BTW, Sony is investing in another Growth Industry - Vinyl Records!




Absolutely, reusing an existing chip means no additional NRE, no additional logistics, additional volume efficiencies etc. etc.

just like the car companies that share engines, chassis, software, electronics etc, between multiple models or even brands.

Really good brands build a great kit of parts then build a range of products from the same kit.


----------



## JPCanonUser (Jul 1, 2017)

photojoern.de said:


> > AF spread is a big issue for me. I'm a bit tired on focus and compose and hearing the number of AF points I was really set to buy this to replace my 5D classic.
> >
> > But right now I have decided not to buy it. But I will wait for the reviews and then try it in a shop before making the final decision.
> >
> ...



The AF spread was also my biggest disappointment.

However in your example, if you are comparing to an a7/a9, you should remember the 6D2 has DPAF which gives you similar coverage to the Sony, but is much faster and from my experience, more reliable. Although I do not generally use such wide apertures for a portrait, DPAF would work well in that situation.


----------



## ecka (Jul 1, 2017)

rfdesigner said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > I suspect that lifting the 80D AF and putting it into the 6D MK II is a typical cost cutting measure. Canon saved money on firmware development, the hardware, of course, stocking of spare parts, and tools to calibrate and adjust AF which are in maintenance shops around the world. The savings are probably pretty substantial when you look at the volume of sales. Its just the typical Canon formula that has pushed them to the top of the heap, produce a good but not best product for a low price and high profit, provide good customer service, and money seems to flow in by the boat load. If Sony ever got serious about producing cameras and lenses, they might take over quickly, but their designs are difficult to make and repair, and their prices far too high.
> ...



Exactly. Any idea why Canon is spending so much money to "invent" inferior stuff?
They could simply produce one uncompromised semi-pro FF DSLR series (5D) and cut their prices each time a newer model is released (or gradually), like:
2005 - 5D - $3500
2008 - 5DII - $3500, 5D - $2200
2011 - 5DIII - $3500, 5DII - $2200, 5D - $1500
2014 - 5DsR - $3500, 5DIII - $2500, 5DII - $1500, 5D - $1000 or discontinued
2016 - 5DIV - $3500, 5DsR - $2700, 5DIII - $1800, 5DII - $1000 or discontinued, 5D - discontinued
2018 - 5DX - $3500, 5DIV - $2700, 5DsR - $2000, 5DIII - $1000 or discontinued, 5DII - discontinued
Canon could have been selling 5DII for $1000 in 2016 no problem. And 5DIV could have a flip-out touch-screen and a proper 4K (maybe even in 5DsR) if they didn't waste time and effort on 6D2. Now, who wants to buy a "new" 5DIII for $2300 in 2017 after the 6D2 ($2000) been announced? Nobody?


----------



## Isaacheus (Jul 1, 2017)

ecka said:


> rfdesigner said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...



I'm assuming they use the manufacturing time/space/capacity to produce the newer models, which will help pay off the new research investment and/or would be more cost effective to produce. They'll sell the current stock they already have, but that likely won't last that long


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 1, 2017)

ecka said:


> Exactly. Any idea why Canon is spending so much money to "invent" inferior stuff?
> They could simply produce one uncompromised semi-pro FF DSLR series (5D) and cut their prices each time a newer model is released (or gradually), like:
> 2005 - 5D - $3500
> 2008 - 5DII - $3500, 5D - $2200
> ...



Inferior? 

Not everyone cares about 4K or 1/8000 sec shutters, dual card slots, or high end features of a 5 Series camera. Many find it too heavy.

A 6 series camera can take professional level photos just fine, and most camera buyers look at the price tag and buy what they can afford as long as it does what they want.

This is how economics works in the West, multiple models with different features for varied prices. Look at something as simple as bread. From 79 cents in our local store to about $5 a loaf. Nothing basically different about it, it could be all exactly the same. A competitor would then put such a company out of business. Some people value the added features and will pay for them. Automobiles, the same, TV sets, the same. The same milk from the same cow sold in a generic container for half the price of a branded package. The list is almost infinite.


----------



## ecka (Jul 1, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly. Any idea why Canon is spending so much money to "invent" inferior stuff?
> ...



Yes



> Not everyone cares about 4K or 1/8000 sec shutters, dual card slots, or high end features of a 5 Series camera. Many find it too heavy.



Which exactly why it makes sense to keep selling older model cameras at lower prices, instead of producing new expensive inferior ones.



> A 6 series camera can take professional level photos just fine, and most camera buyers look at the price tag and buy what they can afford as long as it does what they want.



I know, I own one. But I had the 5D2 before 6D and they both seem very similar in many ways (some things better, some things worse) ... IMHO, while releasing 6D, Canon missed the opportunity to produce a smaller 5D2.5 model (in between 5D2 and 5D3), making a shorter release cycle. Unfortunately, now we get an inferior 6D2 to play with for the next 5 years and keep watching Canon's self-competing madness for ... forever?
6D2 is a nice camera. But is it $2000 nice or is it $1500 nice? - Not that nice for 2019-2022 for sure.



> This is how economics works in the West, multiple models with different features for varied prices. Look at something as simple as bread. From 79 cents in our local store to about $5 a loaf. Nothing basically different about it, it could be all exactly the same. A competitor would then put such a company out of business. Some people value the added features and will pay for them. Automobiles, the same, TV sets, the same. The same milk from the same cow sold in a generic container for half the price of a branded package. The list is almost infinite.



That's not economics. That's a lot of wasted energy and fooled customers.


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## jd7 (Jul 1, 2017)

JPCanonUser said:


> The AF spread was also my biggest disappointment.
> 
> However in your example, if you are comparing to an a7/a9, you should remember the 6D2 has DPAF which gives you similar coverage to the Sony, but is much faster and from my experience, more reliable. Although I do not generally use such wide apertures for a portrait, DPAF would work well in that situation.



This is a significant point, isn't it?

If you want to shoot through the OVF using a PDAF system, the AF coverage is less than you might like ... but all full-frame cameras seem to suffer that to at least some degree, as a result of technical difficulties putting PDAF AF points too far from the centre. In the end the 6DII doesn't seem to be really that much worse than other full-frame cameras in that regard, does it?

If you want to compare against a camera like the a7 or a9, you can switch the Canon LiveView so you use CDAF and can focus on areas toward the periphery ... and in that mode you get the benefits of DPAF, which seems to be very good. A difference at that point is on the Canon you'd have to be using the rear LCD, while on the a7/a9 you could be using the EVF - which I guess will be more important to some people than others.

Am I missing something?


----------



## CADW (Jul 1, 2017)

I think canon got it right not putting 4K in the 6D, It would just have put up the price of it even more, I cant remember ever using video on my 6D which i suspect 90% of the other users who own a 6D would say the same, i love my current 6D and wish i could justify spending money on the 6Dmk2, maybe when the price eventually drops.


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## heimdall999 (Jul 1, 2017)

Well, the best comment I heard about 6d Mark II
############################
CANON SHOULD DESERVE OUR MONEY !
############################
Even the AF Spread problem is enough for -not to buy- 6D mark II. 
The sells of 6DM2 will be a disaster I suppose, and Canon will learn a lesson 
Otherwise, I will sell all my Canon gear (which is a lot!), and jump to another boat !
We are not stupid people Canon ! Please respect us during the design process of your gear...


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## Talys (Jul 1, 2017)

ecka said:


> > Not everyone cares about 4K or 1/8000 sec shutters, dual card slots, or high end features of a 5 Series camera. Many find it too heavy.
> 
> 
> 
> Which exactly why it makes sense to keep selling older model cameras at lower prices, instead of producing new expensive inferior ones.



I disagree with this. I care WAY more about a lot of the features that are not top-line, that have to do with modernization of technology, ergonomics improvements, and creature comforts than I do about 4k or 1/8000 shutters (neither of which I would use, even once). Like, wifi liveview RAW/JPEG splitting, Bluetooth shutter, articulating screen.

Features like these aren't on older models, and will never be, which is why I'd much rather use an 80D than use a 6D, or 5D3 -- or even 5D4, especially considering the price difference. Since weather sealing is only marginally important to me (most of my shooting is in ideal weather or in studio), I find the articulating lens is almost a "must have" feature. I would trade it for 4k or 1/8000 any day, because it makes it easy, for example, to put a camera at the top of an articulating arm tripod, point it down, and snap a photo of an object laying flat on the ground. Or, mount the camera on an arm and take a photo of a diorama from an of angle, such as just beneath a spotlight.

Product differentiation is a good thing. If I can buy a $2000 camera that gives me everything I want, why would I want to buy a $3,300 camera? Even if getting rid of the $2000 camera could drop the next model up down to $3,000, that would still be a lot more to pay, for $1000 of extra features that I either don't care about, or don't care enough about to pay $1,000 more. But for those people who want those features, good on them, please do by the $3,300, or $7,500 camera. 

Same thing for lens: I like the 3-4 tiered system, where you have entry level, enthusiast, and then 1-3 levels of pro lenses (like the variants of 70-200L). I like that, if I am buying glass that will always be in a studio, I won't care about IS or wide aperture and don't have to pay for them, and can instead purchase a lens at a lower cost that will give me the same IQ for my purposes. And if it's for farting around taking weekend photos of birds and raccoons, I'm perfectly happy with a mid-range enthusiast lens.

I think that the number of options/segments should decrease as you get to the highest end camera, because there are a small number of buyers for those (1DX). As you drop down to FF, there needs to be at least a couple of price point, feature and weight options, because 5D4 is not appealing to everyone. When you get to APSC, and sub-$1,500, and especially sub $500, Canon can support a lot of options, because there are tons of buyers out there.


----------



## Talys (Jul 1, 2017)

heimdall999 said:


> Well, the best comment I heard about 6d Mark II
> ############################
> CANON SHOULD DESERVE OUR MONEY !
> ############################
> ...



I absolutely agree that Canon should deserve our money: nobody should buy something that they're not happy with. I certainly wouldn't.

I doubt that's really in question. I think what is, is that some people seem absolutely baffled that there are those who don't see that the 6D2 is a good buy... and others who seem absolutely baffled that anyone would settle for a camera that doesn't have most of the big top-line features from 5D4, but at $2,000.

I think we should just all respect that people come from different perspectives, and that Canon is targeting a certain segment of the DSLR market with the 6D2. If the features you're looking for, whether it's dual SD or 4K or whatever aren't there, the camera isn't for you. Yeah, it's disappointing that Canon made those cuts to hit a price point, but let's be honest: if they're making a $2,000 camera, it's not going to have 98% of the features of a $3,300 camera that sells really well, right?

As to Canon "learning a lesson" with the 6D2 being a train wreck -- since it's already the best selling camera over $500 on Amazon.com, I think you can rule that out. The aging 6D and 5D4 are the two best-selling FF cameras on the market, of any brand, and 6D2 is almost certainly going to sell better than the 6D has been selling in the last couple of years. After all, if you compare it only with 6D, it's superior in practically every way that matters, and will sell at about the price that 6D sold at until recently.

If that makes you so mad that you'd sell all your gear and restart with Pentax or Sony or Nikon or whatever, you might as well get it over with  But IMO, you should just buy what makes you happy that's at the price you want, should that exist. If another company's manufacturing philosophy and their product matches your needs better, you should 100% go there. Just keep in mind that their mind is also on the bottom line, and they will also make decisions to optimize their profits, which may, if not now, perhaps in the future will segment their products in a way that is undesirable to you as well.


----------



## captainkanji (Jul 1, 2017)

I'm gonna buy it. It has the three most important features. It has a full frame sensor, my 135 f/2 fits on it, and I can afford it.


----------



## hbr (Jul 1, 2017)

jd7 said:


> JPCanonUser said:
> 
> 
> > The AF spread was also my biggest disappointment.
> ...



This is an excellent point. I may have been the first one to complain about the point spread out of ignorance. I wrongly assumed that since my 7D2 allowed me to choose an AF point much closer to the edge than my 6D1 did that the 6D2 would be the same as the 7D2. 

I guess that if I want to take the kind of photos that need closer to the edge focusing, I will have to use a tripod or a monopod.

Brian


----------



## hbr (Jul 1, 2017)

ecka said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > ecka said:
> ...



I think the flaw in your argument is that Canon sold a tremendous amount of 6D1 cameras and I suspect the same for the 6D2. If you are a business and you can produce a product that sells very well, you would be stupid not to manufacture it.

Whether Canon is fooling their customers, etc. that is for the customers to decide with their wallets.

Brian


----------



## heimdall999 (Jul 1, 2017)

Talys said:


> heimdall999 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, the best comment I heard about 6d Mark II
> ...



In economical or capitalistic sense, you are right... 
But "PHOTOGRAPHY" is something else...
CANON -as a brand- means lot more to me. You may find it "unrealistic romantism" but, my father had a CANON taking pictures of us as a family. That camera was a relic of my childhood. Something more brighter than any technical object other. 
This is why I buy CANONs...simply  
6DM2 would be my way to FF, and I have every right to expect a reasonable product, after all those years... 
As I shoot stills, 4K means nothing to me... 
But the "AF SPREAD" problem is a big complication, without an excuse...
So, just for fun, I will try to start a new topic like this: 
POLL: DID THE PRODUCT MANAGER OF 6DM2 LOOK FROM THE VIEWFINDER BEFORE ANNOUNCING IT? WHAT DO YO THINK ? YES OR NO ?


----------



## Deepboy (Jul 1, 2017)

captainkanji said:


> I'm gonna buy it. It has the three most important features. It has a full frame sensor, my 135 f/2 fits on it, and I can afford it.



Q U O T E 

The most intelligent comment i read in the last 3 days (included mine!)


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 1, 2017)

heimdall999 said:


> ...the AF Spread problem...



Let's see...the 6DII has cross-type AF points with the same horizontal spread as the cross-type points on my 1D X, Canon's penultimate flagship camera costing over 3-times the price of the 6DII. Oh, and those lateral cross-type points on the 1D X need f/4...with an f/5.6 lens, such as when I put a 1.4x TC on my 600/4, the 1D X cross type points are restricted to the center three columns. If I put a 2x TC behind the 600/4, a 6DII would maintain 27 AF points with the full lateral spread of the AF array. My 1D X with an f/8 lens? One selectable point, smack in the middle. 

If you'd prefer to compare to the 6D, the 6DII has the same horizontal spread, and adds a much wider vertical spread at the lateral edges, meaning unlike its predecessor, the 6DII has AF points very close the rule-of-thirds intersections. 

So...what's the 'problem' here??


----------



## Khalai (Jul 1, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> heimdall999 said:
> 
> 
> > ...the AF Spread problem...
> ...



As I stated earlier, that AF spread is pure hysteria. If you compare all FF DSLR across all brands (not to speak only X-types or f/8 types), they are basically all cramped in the middle. Limitation of TTL PDAF. If you want 80% VF coverage, you'd basically need another FF AF sensor array under the imaging one. That'd been bulky, expensive and mostly useless anyway.

If the X-type points spread is actually indeed like the 1DX, that's quite good. Expecting better AF system of 6000 $ flagships in 2000 $ prosumer body is frankly naïve and a way to disappointment...


----------



## hbr (Jul 1, 2017)

Thanks neuro,

This is the second time you have explained something that I was having trouble understanding.

Brian


----------



## nightscape123 (Jul 1, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> heimdall999 said:
> 
> 
> > ...the AF Spread problem...
> ...



I agree with the idea of your post but I did want to point out that only the 100-400 ii and the 200-400 maintain 27 focus points at f/8. All other lenses, such as the 600 f/4 with 2x only get the center point. Though to be honest if you can afford the 600 f/4 you are probably buying multiple 5d iv's or a 1dx2 and a 5div, not a 6DII. 

The whole AF thing is moot with DPAF being fast and covering 80% of the sensor though. If you are shooting something too fast for DPAF then you are probably keeping it closer to the center of the frame anyway.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 1, 2017)

nightscape123 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > heimdall999 said:
> ...



Thanks for the clarification/correction! 

Incidentally, though I have a 600/4 II and a 1D X, and can afford a 1D X II, the improvements offered by the latter aren't sufficient for me to want to upgrade.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 1, 2017)

I think that the 6D MK II is a really good camera for the money. But, I've decided that rather than have it as a backup to my 5D MK III, I'm going to replace my MK III with the MK IV. I have nothing against the 6D, but I'll use the MK IV features and have used 5D's since they first came out, so I am very familiar with them.

I am in the process of getting the Canon Price Watch deal thru a US dealer (I had a choice of US or Canadian Dealer). I can't reveal who it is, but its one I'd buy from in any event.


----------



## malarcky (Jul 1, 2017)

"Why doesn't Canon make a perfect DSLR camera knowing fully well that these few years are make or break for them?" 

Someone actually asked that in the beginning of this thread. It's almost as though this crippling/market killing debate has got people to believe that Canon could produce a "perfect" camera, but is somehow holding back features in order to protect their market share of some other cameras. This is a stunning display of someone getting caught up in a discussion that is not based on facts, and is merely a theme that there is a marketing tactic by Canon to hold back that "perfect camera" in order to preserve the market share of another line of cameras.

This is saying to us that there are certain people who believe that Canon had the ability to create the perfect camera, but simply won't do it to protect their other line of camcorders/higher end DSLR's. Brainwashing at it's finest.

That being said, I still believe that the full frame version of the 80D is what they were asked to do, while keeping the price the same, and upgrading to the articulating touch screen and including DPAF. That's what they did, basically, and I couldn't be more excited to pre-order this camera.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 1, 2017)

malarcky said:


> "Why doesn't Canon make a perfect DSLR camera knowing fully well that these few years are make or break for them?"
> 
> Someone actually asked that in the beginning of this thread. It's almost as though this crippling/market killing debate has got people to believe that Canon could produce a "perfect" camera, but is somehow holding back features in order to protect their market share of some other cameras. This is a stunning display of someone getting caught up in a discussion that is not based on facts, and is merely a theme that there is a marketing tactic by Canon to hold back that "perfect camera" in order to preserve the market share of another line of cameras.
> 
> ...



Yes, Canon marketing is likely the department that selects what will sell and sets the price point after engineers and finance come up with a list of potential features and their cost. 4K, for example, requires a different chassis for cooling, different sensor, faster card slots, and likely a few more things. If it runs $50 more, the selling price jumps by $250.

The direct manufacturing cost of a camera is nowhere near the selling cost, likely 20-25% or even less. That means another dollar in manufacturing costs adds about $5 to the final price. The cost of distributing cameras world wide, setting up repair stations with spare parts and tooling, recovering design and tooling costs, are factored in to the initial selling cost. After enough cameras are sold to recover those initial, then prices start to fall, and profits rise. Its the same for most products, but some manufacturers get around it by putting out a new model each year with minor differences that cost little, but boost sales.


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## malarcky (Jul 1, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> malarcky said:
> 
> 
> > "Why doesn't Canon make a perfect DSLR camera knowing fully well that these few years are make or break for them?"
> ...



I understand that Canon does this, I was merely pointing out the epitome of this theory by this question the poster asked. It is clear that Canon would produce the "perfect" camera if they could, but somehow to believe that they have the capability to make this perfect camera, and don't because they want to protect their other lines, and that is preposterous. They would sell the "perfect camera" if they had one. They are doing the best they can with what they have, price point wise anyway, in my view.


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## dcm (Jul 1, 2017)

For me the Canon Mark versions of a camera are simply refinements to a body at a particular price point. Upgrades happen when you switch series and price points. My focus is about what a body does have, not what it doesn't. 

My entry into digital was a 3MP G1 in 2001, which I didn't really consider an upgrade from film (Canon A-1). In 2010 I upgraded from a 7MP G6 to the 550D and began adding L glass which completed my transition from film.

I consider the 6D2 a good refinement to the 6D that I chose in 2013 as a FF upgrade to the 550D I got in 2010 - an XXD with a FF sensor so I decided to skip the xxD series. It improves the areas where I considered it weak like AF and FPS and also benefits from some of Canon's recent advances like DPAF and anti-flicker. I imagine many others will see the 6D2 similarly. 

In 2016 I decided to invest more in my photography and make a significant upgrade to a 1DX2, skipping the 5D series this time. It was a significant upgrade to give me new shooting opportunities (sports, wildlife). Otherwise I would likely have picked a 6D2 up for the refined AF/FPS/anti-flicker/... 

I have only used my 6D a few times since, primarily for the silent shutter or when my daughter hands me her 6D to take some family photos for her. I do notice the weight difference, but when size and weight are an issue (hiking, biking, travel) I take the M5.


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## Cthulhu (Jul 1, 2017)

malarcky said:


> "Why doesn't Canon make a perfect DSLR camera knowing fully well that these few years are make or break for them?"
> 
> Someone actually asked that in the beginning of this thread. It's almost as though this crippling/market killing debate has got people to believe that Canon could produce a "perfect" camera, but is somehow holding back features in order to protect their market share of some other cameras. This is a stunning display of someone getting caught up in a discussion that is not based on facts, and is merely a theme that there is a marketing tactic by Canon to hold back that "perfect camera" in order to preserve the market share of another line of cameras.
> 
> ...



That's not true at all. There are simple things Canon could and should do that would have made people happy, such as a flip out screen for the 5dmk4, an AF stick and UHS-II for the 6d mk2. Those simple things are why I haven't bought either of these cameras.


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## scyrene (Jul 1, 2017)

paxfoto said:


> AF spread is a big issue for me. I'm a bit tired on focus and compose and hearing the number of AF points I was really set to buy this to replace my 5D classic.
> 
> But right now I have decided not to buy it. But I will wait for the reviews and then try it in a shop before making the final decision.
> 
> I will probably end up with a Sony A7 III.



Genuine question: how does focus-recompose work with a mirrorless camera? Is it just the same?

Incidentally, is the AF point spread in the 6D2 worse than the original 5D?


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## scyrene (Jul 1, 2017)

TheIndividual said:


> My biggest gripe is 98% viewfinder coverage.
> For $2000 camera, I would have expected to see the full 100% view in its viewfinder.
> 
> There is nothing more irritating in the field to tightly compose an image, only to find out later that there is something on the boundary of the picture which spoils the composition and ultimately the whole picture.
> ...



It was going so well (well, not terribly) until the bold bit. Granted, I can't fathom why you'd use one PP technique but not another, indeed perhaps the most basic, i.e. cropping. But everyone's different, and I crop more than most people - perhaps with wildlife you have to do that more. But at the end you made that same error that (as someone else pointed out above), so many seem to here, especially newbies - to suggest it's make-or-break, and that Canon's missing out of a feature that you want is going to ruin them. And that's why some member keep trotting out sales figures, because that disproves the hypothesis. It might bum you out, and you're allowed to dislike their offerings - but they aren't going bust, and missing out features isn't losing them market share. Plus all companies do it to an extent. And the idea that once people swap systems they don't swap back is not really supported by evidence either, such as it is. Indeed, if you're prepared to swap one way for one feature, why not back should things change? It's logically inconsistent. Hey ho, welcome to CR.


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## scyrene (Jul 1, 2017)

mashuto said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > I believe 5D4 covers your needs so maybe searching for a grey market model or waiting for some rebates could be the solution...
> ...



Are you talking about low ISO DR or high ISO performance? The former will have been improved compared to the original 6D, but maybe not as much as the 5D4 (that remains to be seen); the latter is unlikely to be much different. There's very little progress to be made in raw image high ISO performance - by any manufacturer so long as they use current sensor tech - as has been noted by many technically-knowledgable people here and elsewhere - we're hitting fundamental physical limits in that regard.


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## scyrene (Jul 1, 2017)

jd7 said:


> JPCanonUser said:
> 
> 
> > The AF spread was also my biggest disappointment.
> ...



This is what's weird about the last couple of days on here. This is essentially a non-issue. The biggest gripe about the 6D was apparently its subpar AF system. They improved it in pretty much every way, and suddenly a new 'problem' is invented by a few vocal critics, which seems to be honestly confusing others. The AF spread of full frame cameras covers less of the viewfinder than in (higher end) crop cameras. Nobody complained about this before! But it's something to bash the 6D2 with, so it's now everyone's serious concern. Please. I don't see how anyone who thinks this is a problem can have even used a full frame DSLR, because that's just how it is, whatever the brand.



heimdall999 said:


> *But the "AF SPREAD" problem is a big complication, without an excuse...*
> So, just for fun, I will try to start a new topic like this:
> POLL: DID THE PRODUCT MANAGER OF 6DM2 LOOK FROM THE VIEWFINDER BEFORE ANNOUNCING IT? WHAT DO YO THINK ? YES OR NO ?



There is no AF spread problem. It's made up. It's a combination of some genuine innocent confusion and some pathetic pot stirring by people who should know better (see my comment above). But something tells me you're not posting in good faith here :


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## scyrene (Jul 1, 2017)

Talys said:


> heimdall999 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, the best comment I heard about 6d Mark II
> ...



+1


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## malarcky (Jul 2, 2017)

Cthulhu said:


> malarcky said:
> 
> 
> > "Why doesn't Canon make a perfect DSLR camera knowing fully well that these few years are make or break for them?"
> ...



Just to point out one thing about the reasons you haven't purchased these models, especially the 6D Mk II. The lack of a joystick is something that the 6D Mk II wouldn't be expected of this upgrade, as a rule anyways. There is nothing to indicate the need for this function, as the joystick is geared more towards the faster cameras designed for action, like the 7D Mk II. The 6D Mk II just now got into the faster category of the 80D, but still isn't a camera marketed for the sports action crowd, in my view. I believe the argument about the UHS-1 vs 2 discussion is misunderstood by me, as the camera's buffer is simply not needing these faster cards, and since it doesn't impliment 4k, the UHS-2 card speed wouldn't be needed, and therefore overkill. I am perfectly happy not having to pay extra for the higher priced cards.


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## Khalai (Jul 2, 2017)

malarcky said:


> Just to point out one thing about the reasons you haven't purchased these models, especially the 6D Mk II. The lack of a joystick is something that the 6D Mk II wouldn't be expected of this upgrade, as a rule anyways. There is nothing to indicate the need for this function, as the joystick is geared more towards the faster cameras designed for action, like the 7D Mk II. The 6D Mk II just now got into the faster category of the 80D, but still isn't a camera marketed for the sports action crowd, in my view. I believe the argument about the UHS-1 vs 2 discussion is misunderstood by me, as the camera's buffer is simply not needing these faster cards, and since it doesn't impliment 4k, the UHS-2 card speed wouldn't be needed, and therefore overkill. I am perfectly happy not having to pay extra for the higher priced cards.



Well, after that AF upgrade and 6.5 FPS, this actually seems like a nice camera even for non-professional sports and wildlife usage. The AF pattern and point type is not that much different from 5D line now, so you can actually use that for more than just still life.

About UHS-II, that omission is actually a bit beyond me. I'd like to see USB-C port instead of rather antiquated USB 2.0 and UHS-II slot (you can still use UHS-I cards in it anyways) on that 6D2. Well, if the reviews sway me to upgrade (actually move 6D to back-up mode and 6D2 into main mode) I'll just have to live with that, but those two things could have been there. Sometimes Canon seems a bit to conservative in such details.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 2, 2017)

Cthulhu said:


> There are simple things Canon could and should do that would have made people happy, such as a flip out screen for the 5dmk4, an AF stick and UHS-II for the 6d mk2. Those simple things are why I haven't bought either of these cameras.



Simple does not mean free. Simple does not mean the majority want it. There are undoubtedly good reasons why those 'simple things' were excluded.


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## Cthulhu (Jul 2, 2017)

malarcky said:


> Cthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > malarcky said:
> ...



You don't have to market a camera for sports to make the af more usable. Navigating 45 af points is a million times easier with a joystick and since it has decent speed you can definitely use it for some action. It's the reason I don't have an 80d, even if the IQ is better than my 7dmk2.
As for card types, faster cards mitigate shallow buffers to an extend, by clearing them faster.


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## Cthulhu (Jul 2, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Cthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > There are simple things Canon could and should do that would have made people happy, such as a flip out screen for the 5dmk4, an AF stick and UHS-II for the 6d mk2. Those simple things are why I haven't bought either of these cameras.
> ...



Who said free? I'd gladly pay extra for a 5dmk4 with the same screen as the 6d if it was an option.
Also what's a good reason to not include UHS-II? It's not rare tech. Same for the af stick, I'm 100% sure everyone would appreciate it with the vastly increased af points.


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## mashuto (Jul 2, 2017)

scyrene said:


> mashuto said:
> 
> 
> > tron said:
> ...



Mostly low iso dr. That's what I am most interested in. I know it should be improved, but at this point I would hope that it's at basically the same level of the 5d4 as to me at this point that amount of improvement is about the minimum of what I would want out of a camera.

High iso isn't really something I actually care too much about with the exception of how well the camera handles noise (same when pushing shadows) and I know canon has been lagging behind Sony sensors.

So, with all the feature improvements it has over the original 6d, with the assumption that low iso dr will be similar to the 5d4, it's worth the price to me. If dr is not that much of an improvement then personally I'm not sure it's completely worth the cost. Especially because I don't find my 6d really lacking for me, so at this point most things are things that would be nice, but not really must haves.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 2, 2017)

scyrene said:


> paxfoto said:
> 
> 
> > AF spread is a big issue for me. I'm a bit tired on focus and compose and hearing the number of AF points I was really set to buy this to replace my 5D classic.
> ...



Focus-recompose causes problems when you focus then move the camera significantly, _and_ your DoF is shallow. If you have an AF point where you want it (i.e., over your subject with your desired composition), you don't need to recompose, obviating the problem. If you have an AF point close, you only need a small recomposition, and it's really not an issue. 

To the extent that a camera, dSLR or mirrorless, has an AF point where you want it, you're good. Since MILCs use the image sensor for AF, focus-recompose is far less likely to be an issue. Note that the same applies to dSLRs in live view. If using CDAF, you can focus almost right at the edge of the frame, albeit slowly, and focus-recompose will never be an issue. With the on-image-sensor PDAF, you can't get right to the edge - but still likely close enough. 

The horizontal and vertical spread in the middle row/column is pretty much identical between the 5D/5DII/6D/6DII. But the 6DII has a major difference, of which *paxfoto* seems ignorant. The 5D/5DII/6D all have diamond-shaped arrays, whereas the 6DII array is essentially a rectangle. The corners of that rectangle sit very close to the 'rule-of-thirds' intersections, which means using those corner points essentially eliminates the backfocus problem for shots with that oft-used composition (and as an added bonus, those corner points are cross-type). With the diamond-shaped arrays, the areas near the 'rule-of-thirds' intersections are devoid of AF points.


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## malarcky (Jul 2, 2017)

scyrene said:


> mashuto said:
> 
> 
> > tron said:
> ...



I rented the 5D Mk III from Canon once and it was pretty overwhelming to see the added options in the menu of the included choices that this camera had over the T3i, the 70D, the 80D and the 6D that I own at the present time. It was intimidating actually. There really is that many things for you to choose that isn't available in these "lesser" models. I believe that is an understated value option, if you consider it to be such, knowing that only really hardcore enthusiasts or hobbyists would actually take advantage of these complicated menu options.

The point I'm trying to make here is the difference between these camera models that you can't see just by looking at the camera itself, until you get inside the menus and realize that you have a piece of technological advanced optical instrument in your hands that is simply more than just a camera. It is a powerful tool that has a host of options that are available to you, as the photographer, to take advantage of if you want to, or not, depending on how hard you want to pursuit your goal of being a great photographer.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 2, 2017)

Cthulhu said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Cthulhu said:
> ...



Would you pay a few million dollars extra? I'm sure Canon would do it for a few million dollars. :

I just love comments like, "I'm 100% sure everyone has the same opinion as me." Few things stated here are more asinine, ludicrous, and indefensible. 

Canon's goal isn't to do things you'd appreciate, sorry.


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## Cthulhu (Jul 2, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Cthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Are you saying you wouldn't appreciate or use an af stick if it came in a camera? Because that is an actually ludicrous and asinine statement.


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## Talys (Jul 2, 2017)

Cthulhu said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Cthulhu said:
> ...



Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the reason for the fixed screens on FF were more robust weather sealing. I think it becomes problem in low temperatures. 

Anyways, sure, I'd live a 5d4 with an articulating screen, faster SD support, and some 77D gizmos (like Bluetooth). But I don't think that even for the perfect camera body I could bring myself to shell out $3,300+, partly because I don't think I'll use it enough before I want the next perfect camera body to justify that price. I'm also get a little nerd retail therapy out of new camera bodies, so I kind of want to buy a new body at least every three years or so.. Or at least I get the itch to do so. I'd be reluctant though if they were at 5D4 price points. Yes, I know it isn't necessarily wise, and I could just buy less stuff an get a 5D4 or 1DX, but I'll happily admit that I make irrational buying decisions that I'm happy with even on reflection.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 2, 2017)

Cthulhu said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Cthulhu said:
> ...



I'm saying I'm not arrogant enough to be '100% sure' that I speak for 'everyone'. That a good way to put the ass in asinine, well done!


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## Tangent (Jul 2, 2017)

In the interest of follow-through, let me just say that I was one of the folks concerned about the early samples from the 6Dmk2. After seeing these I am feeling much better:

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos6dmk2/

I really didn't think Canon would put out a horrible sensor for the mkII but I am not one to take things on faith, either. Still looking forward to more samples and test results, but breathing a sigh of relief.

Also, if you want a white SL2 in the USA it is listed as a Canon Online store exclusive:

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/details/cameras/dslr/eos-rebel-sl2-ef-s-18-55mm-is-stm-kit

Cough up for the sales tax, my friends.


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## Cthulhu (Jul 2, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Cthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Well, you're definitely arrogant enough to write an asinine comment about the difficulty of determining whether people would appreciate an af stick... 

Try not to let your ego get in the way of a simple conversation about camera features.


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## Etienne (Jul 2, 2017)

I like easy decisions, like when the Canon 5D Mark II came out. The 5D2 was a one of a kind ... a great stills camera that could also shoot good cinematic 1080p (not without it's problems). Even the 5D3 was not a hard decision - decent AF, and eliminated the moire and aliasing in video of the 5D2. 
But the 5D4 and 6D2 are not easy decisions. They offer some improvements, but they also take away things. The 5D3 with magic lantern gave us things like focus peaking for using manual focus lenses in video, and RAW video if you are willing to do the work. The 5D4 is impossible to manually focus in video because there is no focus peaking and no ML.

Enter the 6D2, and it offers a swivel screen and DPAF touch to focus. Great, except not only is there no 4K, but the 1080p video quality is actually a downgrade ... lowered bitrates, and a return to moire and aliasing is expected from the video community (maybe their analysis is wrong, we'll see). Who downgrades quality today? That's just weird.

I really wish Canon would make my decisions easy, but no. The DPAF with swivel screen on a FF camera is tempting, but I doubt I'll buy it. I'd love using it, but I'd hate seeing the moire and the low bit rate video in the editing room.

I do love the DPAF - I bought the T7i just to play with the DPAF, but that's as much as I'm willing to spend to get mediocre to crappy video with good autofocus. I'll use the T7i as an unattended second camera for interviews, but I have to say I'm disappointed in Canon. 

Back to the waiting game. If Canon makes the C100 mark III and nails it, I may remain with Canon... but it's not looking good. In all likelihood, Sony will make an amazing FS5 mark II, and an equally amazing A7s mark III, and my many years with Canon will draw to a close. And, yes, I am sad about that. I would have loved a kick-ass 5D4 (or 6D2) do-it-all paired with a kick-ass C100 mkII, but both fall short, and the next full product cycle for these cameras is many years away. Maybe Sony will disappoint too, who knows, but my suspicion is that the next Sony cycle (less than a year from now) will be irresistible.


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## BillB (Jul 2, 2017)

Etienne said:


> I like easy decisions, like when the Canon 5D Mark II came out. The 5D2 was a one of a kind ... a great stills camera that could also shoot good cinematic 1080p (not without it's problems). Even the 5D3 was not a hard decision - decent AF, and eliminated the moire and aliasing in video of the 5D2.
> But the 5D4 and 6D2 are not easy decisions. They offer some improvements, but they also take away things. The 5D3 with magic lantern gave us things like focus peaking for using manual focus lenses in video, and RAW video if you are willing to do the work. The 5D4 is impossible to manually focus in video because there is no focus peaking and no ML.
> 
> Enter the 6D2, and it offers a swivel screen and DPAF touch to focus. Great, except not only is there no 4K, but the 1080p video quality is actually a downgrade ... lowered bitrates, and a return to moire and aliasing is expected from the video community (maybe their analysis is wrong, we'll see). Who downgrades quality today? That's just weird.
> ...



I am wondering whether there is another shoe to drop on the Canon video front with a mirrorless model, either crop or FF. If this is so, normal product cycles wouldn't apply. For video an electronic viewfinder is much better than an optical finder, so maybe Canon will emphasize video in a new mirrorless model. It already has touchscreen focussing which is pretty nice. As you point out, right now, Sony hasn't nailed it yet either, so either way it is a waiting game.


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## scyrene (Jul 2, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > paxfoto said:
> ...



Thanks! That's very clear


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## scyrene (Jul 2, 2017)

mashuto said:


> High iso isn't really something I actually care too much about with the exception of how well the camera handles noise (same when pushing shadows) and I know canon has been lagging behind Sony sensors.



Just worth noting - while Canon's *low ISO* DR (specifically shadow recovery) has historically lagged a little way behind Sony's, at high ISOs there was never any real difference between the two, especially in raw images (usual caveats apply).


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## Eclectik (Jul 2, 2017)

paxfoto said:


> AF spread is a big issue for me. I'm a bit tired on focus and compose and hearing the number of AF points I was really set to buy this to replace my 5D classic.
> 
> But right now I have decided not to buy it. But I will wait for the reviews and then try it in a shop before making the final decision.
> 
> I will probably end up with a Sony A7 III.



I was thinking the same. However, with Dual Pixel auto-focus, I'm reconsidering my view point. It seems (based on Canon videos, I agree) that DPAF is quite quick enough to do "still" photography, by avoiding the "focus compose" sequence. We could give it a try, IMO.


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## ecka (Jul 2, 2017)

Talys said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > > Not everyone cares about 4K or 1/8000 sec shutters, dual card slots, or high end features of a 5 Series camera. Many find it too heavy.
> ...



Hearing/seeing the phrase - "entry level" - makes me face palm every time. I'm not entering anything when buying cheaper products. Honestly, it sounds like a "gradual robbery", which makes you suffer till it's over. I expect to get an adequate tool for my money, not the "snake oil". I don't care what you don't care about. I care to get a modern camera with sufficient features and qualities for the next 5 years and APS-C is not an option.
If an image doesn't deserve high quality, then, most likely, it's not worth shooting at all.


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## Etienne (Jul 2, 2017)

BillB said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > I like easy decisions, like when the Canon 5D Mark II came out. The 5D2 was a one of a kind ... a great stills camera that could also shoot good cinematic 1080p (not without it's problems). Even the 5D3 was not a hard decision - decent AF, and eliminated the moire and aliasing in video of the 5D2.
> ...



Another video camera would be a great surprise, but I seriously doubt it. Even the C200 is not going to be fully functional until the first firmware update, which is planned for almost a year from now.

Sony has all the technology available to do this now, and has demonstrated that they will push the limits on what they offer. The A7s III only needs on sensor phase detect and a swivel touchscreen to be irresistible. An improvement in rolling shutter would be nice too.
The FS5 only needs IBIS, sensor phase detect and touch screen. A little low light improvement would be nice, but I suspect that these things will come to the A7s III and FS5 II in less than a year. If so, I'll have to go with those. (They are already very tempting cameras, this would just make the decision extremely easy)


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 2, 2017)

ecka said:


> Hearing/seeing the phrase - "entry level" - makes me face palm every time. I'm not entering anything when buying cheaper products. Honestly, it sounds like a "gradual robbery", which makes you suffer till it's over. I expect to get an adequate tool for my money, not the "snake oil". I don't care what you don't care about. I care to get a modern camera with sufficient features and qualities for the next 5 years and APS-C is not an option.
> If an image doesn't deserve high quality, then, most likely, it's not worth shooting at all.



What phrase would you prefer? 'Bottom of the line' full frame camera? How about 'low-end' full frame camera? Maybe 'cheapest' full frame camera? 

Probably you should buy the 1D X II, D5, or a9, so you can enter the world of full frame cameras at the top. At least until the successor is released. Then, instead of gradual robbery up the line, you can slowly (or quickly, with Sony) experience your inexorable slide into a has-been camera. 

Or you could just ignore the terminology, but the camera that meets your needs, and go take pictures. At least, that's worked well for me.


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## Talys (Jul 2, 2017)

ecka said:


> Hearing/seeing the phrase - "entry level" - makes me face palm every time. I'm not entering anything when buying cheaper products. Honestly, it sounds like a "gradual robbery", which makes you suffer till it's over. I expect to get an adequate tool for my money, not the "snake oil". I don't care what you don't care about. I care to get a modern camera with sufficient features and qualities for the next 5 years and APS-C is not an option.
> If an image doesn't deserve high quality, then, most likely, it's not worth shooting at all.



The problem is that I ALSO don't really care about what you don't care about -- and I do care about price. If there's a cheaper model that has enough (or all) of the features that *I* care about, that's the one I'll probably buy. Why should I pay more?

What most people who say, "I don't like so many models" are actually saying is: "This vendor doesn't have a lower-priced model with the features I want, and if they got rid of the lower-priced models, the higher-end one would come down in price". But that's just not going to happen. If you're advocating that they start FF cameras at 5D4, then you should just ignore the 6D2 entirely, and buy a 5D4, or complain, "5D4 is too expensive". But that's not going to get you very far, unless the sales of $3,300 pro cameras significantly drop.

It's only "gradual robbery" if you keep climbing the ladder because what you REALLY want is a full pro model but keep settling for something less thinking it would do. If you know this to be the case, you should not buy a lower end model. It isn't "gradual robbery" at all, if you buy the 6D2 and you're happy with it for the next 3 years or so, until the 6D3 comes out. If you just read through this thread, you'll see all sorts of people who remain perfectly happy with 6D mark 1 -- they weren't robbed, right?

By the way, I do agree that it's not worthwhile buying a camera that doesn't shoot a good image. The problem is that we have different standards for what constitutes acceptable or excellent, and price is an important consideration for most buyers. Like most things in life, it's about compromises


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## BillB (Jul 2, 2017)

Etienne said:


> BillB said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



Fair enough. As you say, time will tell. Sony thinks the demand is there for an FS5 II and an A7sIII, and they are going to come up with models to cash in on that demand as soon as possible. Canon has dual pixel technology and touchscreen focussing, but Canon's next steps are less clear, partly because it is not clear how Canon sees the market for video/stills cameras. The 6DII puts some of Canon's cards on the table, but what next? (if anything).


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## ecka (Jul 2, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Hearing/seeing the phrase - "entry level" - makes me face palm every time. I'm not entering anything when buying cheaper products. Honestly, it sounds like a "gradual robbery", which makes you suffer till it's over. I expect to get an adequate tool for my money, not the "snake oil". I don't care what you don't care about. I care to get a modern camera with sufficient features and qualities for the next 5 years and APS-C is not an option.
> ...



Why not "exit level" then? What's the difference?
"FF scam edition" sounds reasonable.
What makes you think that I can't shoot pictures without your permission? . 6D2 doesn't feel like a $2000 camera of 2017. More like $1700 camera of 2016, which should be $1500 by now .


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## ecka (Jul 2, 2017)

Talys said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Hearing/seeing the phrase - "entry level" - makes me face palm every time. I'm not entering anything when buying cheaper products. Honestly, it sounds like a "gradual robbery", which makes you suffer till it's over. I expect to get an adequate tool for my money, not the "snake oil". I don't care what you don't care about. I care to get a modern camera with sufficient features and qualities for the next 5 years and APS-C is not an option.
> ...



Exactly. I have no idea why you prefer to pay more. Crop kit lenses are good value. But most of the "next level" crop optics are overpriced. Even using EF lenses on APS-C is wasting 60% of the unused glass.
There are options other than Canon. The problem is that people are lazy. I am too lazy for switching systems each time someone makes a better offer. And I do like many things Canon does well. I just hate it when they dumb it down for no reason. Look what MagicLantern does with 5 year old Canons ... It makes the new ones seem dated. It took 5 years to release the 6D2. Why do you expect the 6D3 coming sooner?
I'm not fully happy with 5D series either. This CF+SD combo is BS. No flip-out screen politics is stupid. No peaking, etc. ...


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## Khalai (Jul 2, 2017)

ecka said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > ecka said:
> ...



Well, what's the problem then? You don't like the price - then don't buy it or wait for the price to fall down to a level you'll find acceptable.

If you are lazy to switch systems (as you stated yourself), then tough luck - you either overcome your laziness and switch systems (if you feel that necessary) or just get used to it.

I don't like some things about 6D Mark II either, price si rather higher (in my country, not MSRP) than original 6D, when I bought it 3 years ago, I'd welcome 2nd slot, USB-C interface and other small things. But hey, I either shell out around 2200 € or just simply don't buy if I feel that 6D Mark II is not worth of my money and effort.

Vote with your wallet, simple...


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 2, 2017)

ecka said:


> Why not "exit level" then? What's the difference?


 
One is accepted terminology for the lowest trim level across a variety of industries. The other is a lame phrase, with obvious negative connotations. 




ecka said:


> What makes you think that I can't shoot pictures without your permission? .



Well, I _thought_ you could comprehend what you read. But if that's how you interpret it, clearly I was wrong. My bad. 




ecka said:


> "FF scam edition" sounds reasonable.
> 6D2 doesn't feel like a $2000 camera of 2017. More like $1700 camera of 2016, which should be $1500 by now .



If that sounds reasonable to you, you probably shouldn't buy one. No one cares, least of all Canon.


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## scyrene (Jul 2, 2017)

ecka said:


> Why not "exit level" then? What's the difference?



What on earth are you talking about?


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## Khalai (Jul 2, 2017)

scyrene said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Why not "exit level" then? What's the difference?
> ...



Exit level FF > Next level is MF?


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## ecka (Jul 2, 2017)

Khalai said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > ecka said:
> ...



Makes sense


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## mashuto (Jul 2, 2017)

scyrene said:


> mashuto said:
> 
> 
> > High iso isn't really something I actually care too much about with the exception of how well the camera handles noise (same when pushing shadows) and I know canon has been lagging behind Sony sensors.
> ...



Yea, thats a good point. So again, sorry if I wasnt super clear. High ISO performance is significantly less of a concern of mine. I am much more interested in low ISO dynamic range and noise performance (via shadow recovery) and at this point would hope it would be a match for their best sensors out, just like the original 6D was at the time. And if it falls behind the 5d4, I would be a bit disappointed because it leaves me questioning just how much of an improvement it will actually be over the original 6D.

It is just my one personal sticking point with my preorder. Everything else sounds great, but the preorder was under that impression that dr would be similar (or better) to the 5D4, just as the original 6D was compared to the 5D3. And it is the one unknown right now that is making me slightly hesitant.


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## dak723 (Jul 2, 2017)

Etienne said:


> Sony has all the technology available to do this now, and has demonstrated that they will push the limits on what they offer. The A7s III only needs on sensor phase detect and a swivel touchscreen to be irresistible. An improvement in rolling shutter would be nice too.
> The FS5 only needs IBIS, sensor phase detect and touch screen. A little low light improvement would be nice, but I suspect that these things will come to the A7s III and FS5 II in less than a year. If so, I'll have to go with those. (They are already very tempting cameras, this would just make the decision extremely easy)



Unfortunately, in my experience, what all the A7 models need is a larger flange distance. If you are using an adapter, then no problem. Apparently, realizing the problem, many of the higher end Sony lenses try and compensate with larger lenses (with more distance at the mount end). But this basic flaw makes me wonder how else Sony screwed up when going to full frame. And the ergonomics are awful - pretty much everyone agrees. If those things aren't an issue for you, then by all means you should get the camera you want.


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## ecka (Jul 2, 2017)

Khalai said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



I know that ... I'm waiting , no worries.
In my area 6D2 price is stupid high 2800€ and 2100€ on Amazon.de, which is around $2400, crazy.
I paid 1500 for my 6D, 5 years ago, after I've sold my 5D2 for those same 1500 . Now, 5D3 costs near as much as 6D2 or even less. But the real dilemma is with used 5DsR available for 2000-2500.


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## Khalai (Jul 2, 2017)

ecka said:


> I know that ... I'm waiting , no worries.
> In my area 6D2 price is stupid high 2800€ and 2100€ on Amazon.de, which is around $2400, crazy.
> I paid 1500 for my 6D, 5 years ago, after I've sold my 5D2 for those same 1500 . Now, 5D3 costs near as much as 6D2 or even less. But the real dilemma is with used 5DsR available for 2000-2500.



I feel the pain. Czech Republic - price is 2150 € incl. VAT. I bought my original 6D for around 1700 €. So even if the MSRP is 99 USD less, inflation, currency exchange rates and VAT mess it up anyway.

I'm patiently waiting on the reviews. If the 6D2 sensor is not THAT much different from the 6D, I think I might just wait it out until the price drops or get some second hand one in mint condition with some remaining warranty for a better price. Until then, my 6D suits me just fine, even with that crude AF system


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## Talys (Jul 2, 2017)

ecka said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > ecka said:
> ...



You misunderstand me. I prefer to pay less -- and the 6D2's price point is about right for me ($2k USD). I like articulating screen, and don't plan on going out into -20C weather or slogging in the rain. I have double-digit minutes of DSLR video since my very first DSLR capable of video, so 4k is meh. I'm ok with 1SD slot; sure 2 would be better. I prefer 5D4 AF, but I can live with 6D2's. So since it's a great compromise for me -- the perfect camera doesn't exist -- I'm going to buy one.

Unlike you, I don't choose to shoot Canon because I'm too lazy to switch systems. I switched from Canon to Minolta (my first AF camera! ) to Nikon in flim days, started DSLR with Olympus and switched to Canon starting with T2i era. I've had plenty of opportunity to switch since, have borrowed many cameras, and have tried a lot of bodies and lenses not because I'm unhappy with Canon, but because I like to play with gadgets.

At the end of the day, I just like the Canon system better, and mostly for the things that don't make it onto top line spec sheets. I like the way the camera feels and shoots and the menus and controls most of all, I like the feel of the premium lenses, RT Flash system and controller, and cheap third party accessories. I will happily concede that I could probably get better IQ out of another device, but IQ isn't everything -- having fun taking the shot is worth a lot to me, and at the end of the day, a lot of the photos are pretty close to the eye on all the higher end DSLRs and lenses anyhow -- or in some cases, better in situation A but worse in situation B.

I agree that the budget APSC lenses are the stellar deal; a lot of times, they're more than good enough, and cost a fraction of pro lens. But hey, that's how it goes with everything. Going high-end means diminishing returns with each dollar, not just because of parts costs, but because the market becomes smaller. It's kind of a fact of life, and I'm fine with that -- not like I could do anything about it if I weren't


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## Sporgon (Jul 2, 2017)

Etienne said:


> I like easy decisions, like when the Canon 5D Mark II came out. The 5D2 was a one of a kind ... a great stills camera that could also shoot good cinematic 1080p (not without it's problems). Even the 5D3 was not a hard decision - decent AF, and eliminated the moire and aliasing in video of the 5D2.
> But the 5D4 and 6D2 are not easy decisions. They offer some improvements, but they also take away things.



Great Scott man ! DR ! DR for heaven's sake. Where have you been for the last five years ?


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## mashuto (Jul 2, 2017)

Sporgon said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > I like easy decisions, like when the Canon 5D Mark II came out. The 5D2 was a one of a kind ... a great stills camera that could also shoot good cinematic 1080p (not without it's problems). Even the 5D3 was not a hard decision - decent AF, and eliminated the moire and aliasing in video of the 5D2.
> ...



We have no idea how much of an improvement the 6D2 will be for DR over the 6D. Actually, my one big concern about my preorder... Hopefully it will be close to or match (or even slightly beat) the 5D4, but if its just not that much of an improvement, I may be cancelling that preorder and considering whether I need to upgrade or whether I can swing the extra money for the 5D4 even though it has a lot of features I dont need and will never use.


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## ecka (Jul 2, 2017)

Talys said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...



Well, I understand everything perfectly. You pay less, but you get even less than you pay for it . Sometimes less is more.
I like FF
I like articulating touch screen
I like smaller body (but not too small with too many compromises)
I like decent AF systems, F8, DPAF (I don't really need 45 AF points, specially in the center; 9 good points in rectangular formation (not the freaking diamond) with adjustable size would do perfectly)
I like OVF (for some reasons)
I like EVF (for different reasons)
I like high resolution, including video (which in Canon case is made for photographers to be able to grab frames from that MJPEG, much like shooting 30fps JPGs in crop mode)
I like CF card slot (I can put an SD into CF slot via adapter, no need for SD slots, never was)
I like long battery life
I like decent affordable primes
I like focus peaking
I like MagicLantern
I like reliable gear
I like reasonable price
I like Canon ergonomics
I'd like a built-in RT transceiver (why not? is it expensive? it's a little $15 circuit board with a little chip and I'm ready to pay $50 for it  )
Somehow there are no such cameras . Maybe the new Pentax K-1 Mark II will deliver?  It's just sad. I'm not asking for pro level weather sealing, or 20 fps, or insane pro AF systems, or pro grade shutter speed, or dual XQD slots, or whatever professionals pay those $6000 for. I want basic stuff. Just put them in one box instead of 5 different boxes. There were articulating LCDs 15 years ago, why is the 6D2 the first FF DSLR to get it? WHY?? Just like in that Gordon Laing feat. Kai Wong - Canon, Tell Me Why! song  ... https://youtu.be/0crokqG2uYg?t=6m38s

The thing with crop kit lenses is that when you put pro zooms on your crop body, you don't get more than you get with your kit lenses. All you get is a nicer lens barrel with 160% extra weight and the only practical use for it is to impress someone . In fact, sometimes with pro optics you get less. And there are like 5 or 6 videos on youtube (possibly more, I just saw 5-6 of them) with that being thoroughly investigated. I think Tony Northrup did one.


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## Deepboy (Jul 2, 2017)

ecka said:


> There were articulating LCDs 15 years ago, why is the 6D2 the first FF DSLR to get it? WHY??



As everybody is saying from days, everybody has is own tastes; i would gladly save 50 or 100 € on the 6DII for NOT having the flip screen, or i would pay 50 or 100 € more for a double slot for what is worth.

But that's how Canon designed it; i'm going to buy it anyway 99% even with the flip screen and without the double slot event i i wanted the opposite way.
Don't assume that the flipping screen is something everybody wants, and blame Canon for not installing it on fullframes until today; they do the camera they thing they can sell more pieces and for the max amount of money; i you like (most of) it, you buy it, if you don't, than don't buy. But your tastes are YOURS, not everybody's.


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## Khalai (Jul 2, 2017)

Epaminonda said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > There were articulating LCDs 15 years ago, why is the 6D2 the first FF DSLR to get it? WHY??
> ...



Actually, I'd prefer just tilt screen like Fuji or Sony has. I like that approach more, it's faster and you don't have to move the screen outwards the camera, making the hinge a potential weak spot for break. I guess you can't have everything.

My dream camera would be look and ergonomics of Fuji X-T2 with EF mount, top Sony sensor and Canon colours. Damn, that would be something, right?


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## ecka (Jul 2, 2017)

Epaminonda said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > There were articulating LCDs 15 years ago, why is the 6D2 the first FF DSLR to get it? WHY??
> ...



Well, you don't have to use all of the features your camera has. I'd rather have one CF slot, than dual SD, but if there were 2 SD slots in my 6D, I would still use one. You don't have to flip the screen. You don't have to shoot videos. You don't have to use built-in flash. You don't have to use touch LCD. You don't have to use AF. There are plenty of thing you'll never use, or maybe you don't even know they are there (did you read the manual? :), why not add a few more? It won't hurt. These things don't cost extra $100 each. It's the greedy marketing to blame. They want us to buy 5 different boxes instead of one. Despite that in most cases people buy only 1 box regardless of what the salesman says. But they could buy that one box more often, if it was worth it.


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## Don Haines (Jul 3, 2017)

As someone who has had several DSLRs with an articulated screen, and has had several without, I have noticed the following:

If you attach your camera to a telescope, the tilt swivel screen makes viewing much easier, and is particularly more comfortable than lying in the snow for several hours.... think real hard on that one if you are a nature photographer doing low angle shots..... in a swamp.....

If you are working in confined spaces, the tilt swivel screen is wonderful and lets you back the camera as far as possible....

Everyone says that a tilt swivel screen is great for holding the camera up in the air above crowds and composing shots..... I have done this once in 50 years of shooting.......

Internet wisdom is that the screens are fragile and will break, yet there seems to be a lack of people who have ever had one break....

If you turn the screen around after shooting, your screen is better protected than a normal screen....

Internet wisdom says you can not seal a CANON camera with an articulated screen, yet according to Canon, the 60D was better sealed than the 5D2..... and somehow, Olympus has managed to seal their cameras to a higher level than Canon/Nikon/Sony.......


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## ecka (Jul 3, 2017)

Khalai said:


> Epaminonda said:
> 
> 
> > ecka said:
> ...



I guess it's fine for stills. The flip out screens are very good for videos. And 4k is the way to go in 2017. But Canon decided to put the flip out screen in their only FF DSLR (of recent) that doesn't shoot 4k 
When I'm seeing stuff that crazy, I'm thinking - what else is wrong? - and there are many things wrong about that camera (for the price).


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## Deepboy (Jul 3, 2017)

ecka said:


> I'd rather have one CF slot, than dual SD,



CF slot are very fragile with all those pins, i saw plenty of cameras with bended pins and so the card was impossibile to insert, i wonder why they still put such a dumb mechanical sh*t on professional cameras, SD slots are way more safe and less prone to be damaged, when the first 6D went out (i was coming from 5D MK II) i was SO happy it had SD cards 

So you see, everybody really has his own tastes...


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## Isaacheus (Jul 3, 2017)

Talys said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...



The iq of the 6d 2 is now the biggest factor in whether I go for the upgrade from the 6d, or see what else is a viable option with a tilting screen (big plus for me at least) 
I'm mainly doing landscape and astro, and have been finding the enjoyment of shooting has been decreasing as I've found more limitations with the iso variance, especially after a shooting friend got a d750 which doesn't have anywhere near the same limitations, even with far inferior glass (crop sensor glass, so heavy vignettes and coma). Not that the Canon can't take nice photos at all, but many times there is a noticeable difference in the quality of noise, which starts to be a little disappointing when it means you can't get the shot you envisioned


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 3, 2017)

ecka said:


> Well, you don't have to use all of the features your camera has. I'd rather have...



So, others should pay for your personal wish litany of features, it's ok because they don't have to use them. 

: : : : : :


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## ecka (Jul 3, 2017)

Epaminonda said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > I'd rather have one CF slot, than dual SD,
> ...



I think that depends on where these people are buying their cards (could be fake, badly made with poor precision) and if their "hands are growing from the right place" . I've seen people trying to insert CF cards sideways and backwards, so that's one reason right there. I mean, what else did they try to put in there ... could be anything . I never had a single problem with those pins. No way SD cards are any safer. SDs die and get corrupted much more often, specially in "those hands" . And you didn't have to use CF in your 5D2. You could use an SD adapter. Some adapters allow to use two SD cards in CF slot, if you want to double the chance of failure .


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## ecka (Jul 3, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Well, you don't have to use all of the features your camera has. I'd rather have...
> ...



Why not? I'm paying for stuff you like . We help each other, almost like family ... ;D


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## Don Haines (Jul 3, 2017)

ecka said:


> Epaminonda said:
> 
> 
> > ecka said:
> ...



I have been using CF cards for a LONG!!!!! time.... I still have some 2M cards and they still work! In all this time, I have yet to see a bent pin. I can see how with a cheap card reader with a poorly sized slot, or with a cheap card that isn`t exactly to size/shape specs, that you could bend pins if it were inserted wrong, but if one takes appropriate care and does not try to force things, it is almost impossible.....


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## eosuser1234 (Jul 3, 2017)

No matter how hard I try to explain the need of 6dm2 to my lady, she brings up the following valid points:
Increase in MP= Yeah, but its not really that big of jump. :-\
Increase in focus points = Your 7Dm2 has 65 
DPAF= Yeah, but your 7Dm2 already has that.
Increase in 6.5FPS= Your 7Dm2 does 10FPS. Besides, you like the 1.6x APS-C for extra length, right?
Swivel LCD= You said you need this for astro, but thats why I bought you the angle finder C.

Game over. Probably not gonna upgrade on this one.


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## Don Haines (Jul 3, 2017)

eosuser1234 said:


> No matter how hard I try to explain the need of 6dm2 to my lady, she brings up the following valid points:
> Increase in MP= Yeah, but its not really that big of jump. :-\
> Increase in focus points = Your 7Dm2 has 65
> DPAF= Yeah, but your 7Dm2 already has that.
> ...


"But Honey, I was getting it for you".....


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## Cthulhu (Jul 3, 2017)

eosuser1234 said:


> No matter how hard I try to explain the need of 6dm2 to my lady, she brings up the following valid points:
> Increase in MP= Yeah, but its not really that big of jump. :-\
> Increase in focus points = Your 7Dm2 has 65
> DPAF= Yeah, but your 7Dm2 already has that.
> ...



It will undoubtedly have much better IQ. I've been looking to replace mine for a while but Canon makes sure to differentiate the bodies just enough that there won't be nothing to compete with it.


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## Talys (Jul 3, 2017)

eosuser1234 said:


> No matter how hard I try to explain the need of 6dm2 to my lady, she brings up the following valid points:
> Increase in MP= Yeah, but its not really that big of jump. :-\
> Increase in focus points = Your 7Dm2 has 65
> DPAF= Yeah, but your 7Dm2 already has that.
> ...



Ha! Your lady cares way more about camera gear than mine    Mine is more like... Oh.. that's nice... what do I get out of it? hehehehehe

By the way, the problem with all of the things that you said come down to: 7D2/80D has everything that 6D2 has, sure... but... it's not FF. I don't plan to use a 6D2 instead of an 80D; I plan on using it in addition to. 80D because of the 1.6x APS-C, and for certain lens like 600mm on Sigma to give me a lot of reach; or, to effectively get a little more reach out of 70-200mm 2.8.

I want to use the 6D2 to shoot a little wider with 24-70L, and also, on 7-200 2.8. Also, when I want to shoot when lighting is less than ideal. I've borrowed a 5D4 before, and I do love it for these situations, but all of these are hobby shots for me, and I didn't want to spend $3300 on a camera that will mostly be used to take sunsets and moon shots  Plus, 5D4 doesn't have an articulating LCD, which is extremely useful to me in a wide variety of situations, especially when a tripod is set very high -- it is much more useful for me than weather sealing, 4k, dual memory card, or super-high shutter.


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## Talys (Jul 3, 2017)

ecka said:


> Well, I understand everything perfectly. You pay less, but you get even less than you pay for it . Sometimes less is more.
> I like FF
> I like articulating touch screen
> I like smaller body (but not too small with too many compromises)
> ...



hehe... I like all those things too  If they stuffed them all into one camera, that would be great. The problem becomes, if they put all those features into 1 body, it would probably be more than I would pay 

The only one I disagree with is EVF. I'm just not a fan -- it always seems great, and I love the idea in concept, but I just don't enjoy shooting with one. 

I like APSC lenses and affordable primes, too. Fortunately, neither of these are really an issue -- since most canon primes, even inexpensive ones, give amazing image quality. The one thing I don't like about new Canon consumer grade lenses is that I'm not a fan of STM (including nano USM) -- or at least not compared to mechanical ring USM. I could probably be made a bigger fan if they made it possible to focus without shutter half-press, even if it took battery power to do so.


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## ecka (Jul 3, 2017)

Talys said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I understand everything perfectly. You pay less, but you get even less than you pay for it . Sometimes less is more.
> ...



The AF-ON/Stop button works well for FTM on STM lenses . Not a problem.


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## SweOz (Jul 4, 2017)

It looks like the GPS now will have 2 modes with mode 2 saving battery life when the camera is switched off, this was an issue with the 6D (Mk1) as the battery would drain even if you switched it off on the power switch. 
Love the geo-tagging on the 6D but not the battery drain. 
Like most I would have liked 2 memory card slots and slightly wider spread AF points. 
Can’t give a toss about 4K video, there are far better systems for this if you are into videography.


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## Uneternal (Jul 4, 2017)

The spread of the AF points is an actual joke, I couldn't believe it when I read about it. Why would you need 45 points that spread only across the middle third of the picture?
That makes me actually think twice before buying this camera. But lets wait for the real world tests, if it can't deliver much more than the original 6D then screw it.


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## Khalai (Jul 4, 2017)

Uneternal said:


> The spread of the AF points is an actual joke, I couldn't believe it when I read about it. Why would you need 45 points that spread only across the middle third of the picture?
> That makes me actually think twice before buying this camera. But lets wait for the real world tests, if it can't deliver much more than the original 6D then screw it.



Better check all other FF cameras. E.g. much more expensive 5D IV is not that better. And if you compare only cross type points, it's about the same. And even 1DX II is nowhere near top tier crop cameras such as 7D II.

And frankly? What did you expect? 5D AF array in a body, which is 1300 USD cheaper?


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## ecka (Jul 4, 2017)

Khalai said:


> Uneternal said:
> 
> 
> > The spread of the AF points is an actual joke, I couldn't believe it when I read about it. Why would you need 45 points that spread only across the middle third of the picture?
> ...



How much is 5D4 cheaper than 1DX2? Any AF system differences? It doesn't cost a $1000 to put it in every camera. Canon is just messing with us ...


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## Khalai (Jul 4, 2017)

ecka said:


> Khalai said:
> 
> 
> > Uneternal said:
> ...



Nikon D610 or D750 have worse AF coverage, either in general (D610) or in X-type coverage (both of them). Never heard any complaints about them. How come, that suddenly, 6D II is DOA because of that? 

I get it, everybody would want 5D IV AF system in 6D II. But why should Canon do that? What would be the point of actually buying 5D IV?

*And once again - if you switch off all the non X-type points in 5D IV, you get basically the same coverage as 6D II...*


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## SecureGSM (Jul 4, 2017)

With all due respect, your claim does not hold the water. Well, if you have switched off all 5D IV AF points but the center one, you will have exactly as many useable AF points as 6D original has 

There is a big difference in AF spread between these two cameras. There are scenarios where AF spread of 6D II is barely adequate and some where it is non-adequate. But that is by design.
The AF system of 6D II was designed to address basic scenarios and does not provide extreme flexibility of AF system of 5D level bodies. 
Ideally, Canon would have provided 16 non-cross type AF points identically positioned to the ones of 5D IV or III To maintain wider AF spread and 29 cross type AF points clustered in the centre.

AF management system is also very basic. I cannot see myself scrolling through 45 AF points for each large aperture portrait shot. That's redundant. That said if set your AF system to small group mode, scrolling through 9 groups does not sounds like a daunting task. Takes 2 seconds at longest. The problem is that if you need to land AF point precisely on subject's iris, then you have to work in single AF point selection mode and you do need AF joystick to keep you sane and you have to be very fast. Your model will change poses, move head slightly, get bored and tired eventually. Imaging what it takes to take say 500 shots managing AF points scrolling through entire set. It is a slow process and lnefficient process.
You might as well set a closest AF point and then _slightly_ focus and recompose each time. I am sure that with good technique focus plane won't move much if AF point moved just an inch away. 
is that a reasonable trade off? Yes it is. Look, there is no doubt that Canon provided limited AF system with 6D on purpose. Let's get over, admit the fact and make our purchasing decisions according to our project's requirements, budget and existing equipment lifecycle point.
There obvious, glaring limitations by design that may or may not suit your style of shooting.
Personally, I find AF system limitations being to much of trade off to consider purchasing Canon 6D II as this camera does not address limitation of my existing camera bodies. I might as well continue using 6D original until upgrading to 5D IV bodies next year. 





Khalai said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Khalai said:
> ...


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## romanr74 (Jul 4, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> No one cares, least of all Canon.



Let me correct that for you: "YOU" don't care! But then, who cares. Just shut up if you have nothing to say.


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## Khalai (Jul 4, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> With all due respect, your claim does not hold the water. Well, if you have switched off all 5D IV AF points but the center one, you will have exactly as many useable AF points as 6D original has
> 
> There is a big difference in AF spread between these two cameras. There are scenarios where AF spread of 6D II is barely adequate and some where it is non-adequate. But that is by design.
> The AF system of 6D II was designed to address basic scenarios and does not provide extreme flexibility of AF system of 5D level bodies.
> ...



You misunderstand. There are physical and optical limits to TTL PDAF. If you compare just X-types on both 6D II and 5D IV, you'll find very similar spread. 5D IV being more expensive and more higher positioned camera has the advantage that Canon did not have to cut costs and so they could employed a bit wider pattern there - but no X-types, just single lines, mind you. Which clearly shows limitation of that secondary mirror dimensions.

And trust me, I've tried 6D II yesterday (brief hands-on local Canon event). That D-Pad is completely fine for changing those points. I didn't have any trouble quickly scrolling any direction. Yes, joystick is even better, but it's definitely not night and day difference as some claim.

I'm not saying that 6D II AF system is awesome or impeccable. But it's far from useless as many claim here, without even trying the camera on their own. *Compare any other FF DSLR from this price range and please show me any model, which has significantly better AF system.*


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## SecureGSM (Jul 4, 2017)

Hi, yes. Read my post again, please. I am aware that 16 outer AF points in 5D IV non-cross type. I am arguing the point that those non cross type wider spread AF point are perfectly usable in well lit, semi static and Contrastly. subject situations. Ideally canon would provide 29 cross type and 16 non cross type wider spread AF points for 6D II.
And finally, refurbished 5D III body does provide significantly better AF system.  as good as new. With full warranty. Nice and robust. I am not worried about DR drama or lower resolution to be honest. 5D IV has a brand new , metering system in combination with nice sensor and host of other professional features I come to appreciate.
Otherwise, slightly, I mean very slightly used 5D III bodies are popping up on local classifieds website at around US$1300-1400 price mark on a daily basis  ( if converted AUD to USD, aud1600-1800).

p.s. I am sure that Canon could reuse AF system of 5D IV in 6 D II and have some cross type AF point disabled in firmware providing same 45 AF points in total but with a wider spread and preserving differentiation between 5D and 6D product lines. 



Khalai said:


> [II was designed to address basic scenarios and does not provide extreme flexibility of AF system of 5D level bodies.
> 
> You misunderstand. There are physical and optical limits to TTL PDAF. If you compare just X-types on both 6D II and 5D IV, you'll find very similar spread. 5D IV being more expensive and more higher positioned camera has the advantage that *Canon did not have to cut costs and so they could employed a bit wider pattern there - but no X-types, just single lines, mind you.* Which clearly shows limitation of that secondary mirror dimensions.
> 
> ...


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## Khalai (Jul 4, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> Hi, yes. Read my post again, please. I am aware that 16 outer AF points in 5D IV non-cross type. I am arguing the point that those non cross type wider spread AF point are perfectly usable in well lit, semi static and Contrastly. subject situations. Ideally canon would provide 29 cross type and 16 non cross type wider spread AF points for 6D II.
> And finally, refurbished 5D III body does provide significantly better AF system.  as good as new. With full warranty. Nice and robust. I am not worried about DR drama or lower resolution to be honest. 5D IV has a brand new , metering system in combination with nice sensor and host of other professional features I come to appreciate.
> Otherwise, slightly, I mean very slightly used 5D III bodies are popping up on local classifieds website at around US$1300-1400 price mark on a daily basis  ( if converted AUD to USD, aud1600-1800).
> 
> p.s. I am sure that Canon could reuse AF system of 5D IV in 6 D II and have some cross type AF point disabled in firmware providing same 45 AF points in total but with a wider spread and preserving differentiation between 5D and 6D product lines.



Granted. But some may opt for 6D II, because it will have better IQ and DR than 5D III (unless I'm gravely mistaken and some nerfing is taking place) and trust me, that articulated touch screen with DPAF is pure magic. It's almost as fast as OVF PDAF, covers 80% of the frame, which should be above the needs of almost anyone and its really precise. Anyone, who finds 6D II lacking, but is not willing to buy either 5D III or pay up for 5D IV should really try out that as they may find that this can replace wider AF array...

I have to admit, I've been tapping that screen like madman, giggling to myself, because unless you are tracking caffeine intoxicated kangaroo, while driving unicycle, DPAF will work for you just fine.


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## SecureGSM (Jul 4, 2017)

tell me this: how relevant do you think the DR of the sensor is if you shoot portraiture in a good light or with strobes outdoors or in studio?  well, it is irrelevant right? ) not an issue, I mean at all? And if you know what you ar doing and I am sure you do, you can use exposure bracketing to avoid clipped highlights situation in your outdoor landscape / cityscape shots, again, as you do.
Ideally 5D IV is better than 5D IV but only if money were not an issue, otherwise you can achieve same results with 5D III body if you are aware of its limitations and know how to workaround them. It's all about skills as always!
Let's keep it positive. Yes, 6D is a good body unless you _need_ 5D level AF system and metering system.
Let's not forget how powerful metering system of 5D IV is? For accurate WB, exposure and subject tracking support.
Tilty flippy thingio - I am shooting with OVF exclusively, I do not find myself in situation where I need DPAF or tilty screen at all. Yes, very useful for low shots or in tight places. I can use that but so far managed just fine with the fixed screen of my 6D bodies. And I am sure 5D and 1D level bodies user base manages just fine as well.
Good to see you like the new 6D body. It is a good starting point.




Khalai said:


> SecureGSM said:
> 
> 
> > Hi, yes. Read my post again, please. I am aware that 16 outer AF points in 5D IV non-cross type. I am arguing the point that those non cross type wider spread AF point are perfectly usable in well lit, semi static and Contrastly. subject situations. Ideally canon would provide 29 cross type and 16 non cross type wider spread AF points for 6D II.
> ...


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## Talys (Jul 4, 2017)

Khalai said:


> Uneternal said:
> 
> 
> > The spread of the AF points is an actual joke, I couldn't believe it when I read about it. Why would you need 45 points that spread only across the middle third of the picture?
> ...



Why do people keep comparing 5D/6D with 7D AF array? I mean, one is APSC and one is FF. It's just an apples to oranges comparison, the 7DII only needs to autofocus 62.5% the image that comes through an EF lens, in comparison to a FF camera. In other words, if an APSC had near-100% autofocus coverage, and you transplanted that into a FF camera, you'd only get 62.5% AF coverage. Or you could say that pretty much anything in the crop area of a 6D2 will can be used to autofocus  

I realize that's kind of a stupid comparison/scenario, too -- but I think it's kind of equally bizarre to compare an AF system designed for 864 sq. mm to one for 329 sq. mm. I mean, if you're going to make AF coverage comparisons, match 6D2 to 5D4, and 77D to 70D2 -- or at least 6D2 to other camera brand FF bodies.


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## Khalai (Jul 4, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> Good to see you like the new 6D body. It is a good starting point.



Liking ain't buying. I still have my trusty 6D and despite its shortcomings it's still one capable camera. 6D II will have to prove really potent and foremost, its price has to drop down about 400 € for me to consider buying it 

And I'm mostly using OVF as well (with Eg-S matte screen) but that tilty flippy touchy focusy screen really intrigued me. I suggest you give it a go as well, if you have a chance...


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## Khalai (Jul 4, 2017)

Talys said:


> Khalai said:
> 
> 
> > Uneternal said:
> ...



But that's just my point! It stupid to expect APS-C coverage in FF camera, because they are physically limited in AF array dimensions. No single FF DSLR has similar coverage to 7D II, yet only 6D II gets all the flak. Sure it's smaller than 5D series or obviously 1D series, but what do people seriously expect? 6000 € features in 2000 € body? Some out there are just pure greedy and want basically 1DX II performace for a 77D pricing. Or at least it sometimes seems that way. 6D II is not targeted as a professional camera, so why is everybody expecting it to receive professional AF is really beyond me...


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 4, 2017)

Uneternal said:


> The spread of the AF points is an actual joke, I couldn't believe it when I read about it. Why would you need 45 points that spread only across the middle third of the picture?
> That makes me actually think twice before buying this camera. But lets wait for the real world tests, if it can't deliver much more than the original 6D then screw it.



Sounds like your post is the actual joke, here. 

But perhaps you're serious, after all, many people only examine things at a very superficial level...either because that's all they care about, or because that's what their capabilities allow. 



neuroanatomist said:


> The horizontal and vertical spread in the middle row/column is pretty much identical between the 5D/5DII/6D/6DII. But the 6DII has a major difference, of which *paxfoto* seems ignorant. The 5D/5DII/6D all have diamond-shaped arrays, whereas the 6DII array is essentially a rectangle. The corners of that rectangle sit very close to the 'rule-of-thirds' intersections, which means using those corner points essentially eliminates the backfocus problem for shots with that oft-used composition (and as an added bonus, those corner points are cross-type). With the diamond-shaped arrays, the areas near the 'rule-of-thirds' intersections are devoid of AF points.


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## Zanken (Jul 5, 2017)

I'm quite pleased with the upgrade, particularly the flippy touch screen. The potential things to be upset about for me would be lack of dual card slots, but i no longer shoot for money. I'm also not much into video so 4k is not an issue.

I've been shooting mostly night/gig/club type scenes with the original 6D since 2013 and have been quite happy with it. Having good low light with AF and requiring good functionality with an AF assist beam has been a requirement for me that has given me pause with Sony bodies.

I do want to upgrade, but probably wouldn't be in the market for over a year. If an A7III is released with IBIS and an updated sensor, I would probably switch, but only after renting/lending a kit to see whether it stacks up.


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## ecka (Jul 5, 2017)

Khalai said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > Khalai said:
> ...



Isn't it stupid to expect APS-C camera's AF system in a FF camera?  Because that's what Canon did, they simply adapted 80D's AF system in 6D2, and the coverage difference is due to sensor size. 7DII AF coverage is wider spread than 80D. Why didn't they implement that one instead of 80D's? The whole thing is ridiculous. This greedy marketing segmentation is unjustifiable. 6D2 is crippled on purpose. They always make a bit better cameras a lot more expensive, and much inferior ones just a little bit cheaper, to make more $$ from both.




Khalai said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > How much is 5D4 cheaper than 1DX2? Any AF system differences? It doesn't cost a $1000 to put it in every camera. Canon is just messing with us ...
> ...



At least Nikon allows to use crop lenses on FF bodies in crop mode.


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## Mikehit (Jul 5, 2017)

ecka said:


> Isn't it stupid to expect APS-C camera's AF system in a FF camera?  Because that's what Canon did, they simply adapted 80D's AF system in 6D2, and the coverage difference is due to sensor size. 7DII AF coverage is wider spread than 80D. Why didn't they implement that one instead of 80D's? The whole thing is ridiculous. This greedy marketing segmentation is unjustifiable. 6D2 is crippled on purpose. They always make a bit better cameras a lot more expensive, and much inferior ones just a little bit cheaper, to make more $$ from both.



Yeah, market segmentation is ridiculous. I mean, no other industry on earth segments their products, right? Oh, dear, Toyota do don't they which is why the have a range of cars. So let us start a campaign with Toyota asking why they don't put the seats from the Avalon into the Camry. After all, it is only a bit of leather and some metal so it can't cost that much and they can afford it from their profits. 

I presume you have are (or have been) employed and your company never had a 'pay more and get a better service' approach to business, did they? Imagine , how dumb they would have to be to treat their customers so crappily.


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## Khalai (Jul 5, 2017)

ecka said:


> Isn't it stupid to expect APS-C camera's AF system in a FF camera?  Because that's what Canon did, they simply adapted 80D's AF system in 6D2, and the coverage difference is due to sensor size. *7DII AF coverage is wider spread than 80D. Why didn't they implement that one instead of 80D's? The whole thing is ridiculous.* This greedy marketing segmentation is unjustifiable. 6D2 is crippled on purpose. They always make a bit better cameras a lot more expensive, and much inferior ones just a little bit cheaper, to make more $$ from both.


Right. Because it's totally not ridiculous to expect 6D II to have better than 1DX autofocus system, right? Because that's what 7D II have. It' basically second best AF system in the Canon lineup. And you expect it in entry level FF DSLR? Seriously? You are being greedy, expecting 2000 € camera to have features from top of the line...



ecka said:


> At least Nikon allows to use crop lenses on FF bodies in crop mode.


And your point being? I guess many Nikon shooter would trade that gladly for better X-type AF point coverage, which they now have only in the center cluster for D610 or D750...


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## ecka (Jul 5, 2017)

Khalai said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't it stupid to expect APS-C camera's AF system in a FF camera?  Because that's what Canon did, they simply adapted 80D's AF system in 6D2, and the coverage difference is due to sensor size. *7DII AF coverage is wider spread than 80D. Why didn't they implement that one instead of 80D's? The whole thing is ridiculous.* This greedy marketing segmentation is unjustifiable. 6D2 is crippled on purpose. They always make a bit better cameras a lot more expensive, and much inferior ones just a little bit cheaper, to make more $$ from both.
> ...



Really? The freaking 7DII costs $1500! I want $2000 camera to have the AF system from $1500 camera and you call me greedy ...
My point is that Nikon did the same stupid mistake with their AF system in 600 series being adapted from APS-C, but at least it works with APS-C


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## Mikehit (Jul 5, 2017)

ecka said:


> Really? The freaking 7DII costs $1500! I want $2000 camera to have the AF system from $1500 camera and you call me greedy ...



Of course! Let's ignore the additional costs of the full frame sensor being installed, the larger shutter mechanism and larger mirror mechanism....they're all free aren't they. Silly us, how could we forge that fact? How freaking dumb of us...


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## Khalai (Jul 5, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Really? The freaking 7DII costs $1500! I want $2000 camera to have the AF system from $1500 camera and you call me greedy ...
> ...



I want Porsche engine and Bentley chassis in my Skoda car, can I have it? After all, they're all from the same company, only different market targets


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## ecka (Jul 5, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Really? The freaking 7DII costs $1500! I want $2000 camera to have the AF system from $1500 camera and you call me greedy ...
> ...



I'm not ignoring anything. Those larger mechanisms are slower too and larger are easier to make. Do you really think that FF chip costs $1000 more than APS-C? I mean it's $500 more expensive because of the FF sensor. Where do all the rest savings go (from single card slot, inferior AF system, 4K-lessness, etc.)? Even if they both would cost the same, it would be only fair to expect them to share the same AF system.


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## Khalai (Jul 5, 2017)

ecka said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > ecka said:
> ...



When you're producing APS-C sensors from a silicon wafer, you are basically getting 2-3 times more chips, not to mention higher yield percentage, due to defective bits. FF sensors are much bigger (well, obviously), thus any defects will dramatically decrease yield from the silicon wafer and in the process make them significantly expensive. If you lose e.g. 20% of 30 APS-C chips from a single wafer, it's much more cheaper than to lose 20% of 10 FF chips. You end up with 24 APS-C chips vs. 8 FF chips from a single wafer. (numbers are made up for illustratory purposes, I have no internal Canon data for that). Not to mention that those defects are usually not clumped in one area, but spread across the whole wafer. So you risk losing more FF chips than APS-C. Why do you think that high-core-count CPUs are more expensive by order of one or two magnitudes, compared to those mainstream CPU? It's simple - higher yield, lower R&D costs. It's quite analogous to FF vs APS-C. Bottom line - yes, FF chips are much more expensive than APS-C ones...

E.g. replacement cost for 6D sensor is around 600 € w/o servise costs (according to local CPS service center), so yeah - there goes your money...


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## Khalai (Jul 5, 2017)

ecka said:


> Khalai said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...



But you asked for 1DX system. Because that's basically what 7D II have


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## Khalai (Jul 5, 2017)

ecka said:


> Khalai said:
> 
> 
> > ecka said:
> ...



I can count very well, thank you for asking, but you can't read - 600 € without service costs. Just for the replacement part. Not to mention that 6D II has a brand new sensor. R&D is not exactly cheap thing these days...


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## ecka (Jul 5, 2017)

Khalai said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Khalai said:
> ...



No it isn't. If you put 7DII AF into 6D2 it would cover much smaller area, but just a little bit wider than the actual AF from 80D currently used in 6D2. And it is not expensive.


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## Mikehit (Jul 5, 2017)

ecka said:


> No it isn't. If you put 7DII AF into 6D2 it would cover much smaller area, but just a little bit wider than the actual AF from 80D currently used in 6D2. *And it is not expensive.*



Please provide the evidence.


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## ecka (Jul 5, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > No it isn't. If you put 7DII AF into 6D2 it would cover much smaller area, but just a little bit wider than the actual AF from 80D currently used in 6D2. *And it is not expensive.*
> ...



The sensor is the most expensive part, which is 600. All the mechanics together (in a semi-pro camera) cost around 500. The circuit boards cost around 400 (in a semi-pro camera) and the AF system is a part of it. Plus all that is considerably cheaper in a non-retail situation when they are assembling these camera at a factory. Maybe 60, maybe 40, maybe 25, I don't know.


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## Mikehit (Jul 5, 2017)

ecka said:


> The sensor is the most expensive part, which is 600. All the mechanics together (in a semi-pro camera) cost around 500. The circuit boards cost around 400 (in a semi-pro camera) and the AF system is a part of it. Plus all that is considerably cheaper in a non-retail situation when they are assembling these camera at a factory. Maybe 60, maybe 40, maybe 25, I don't know.




What you have given me is not evidence - it seems like a list of suppositions. Where are you get your information to say "The sensor is the most expensive part, which is 600. All the mechanics together (in a semi-pro camera) cost around 500"? Canon make their own sensors so how do you know?
How do you know they use the same circuit boards?
What about the AF sub assembly? Programming the system for the camera?

If you have genuine knowledge that is one thing. If you are assuming based on other areas then it is less secure.

So far your number account for 1500 out of 2,000. Add the body (including machining the mount) and other parts, add packaging and distribution and it looks like your claims of room to throw more things in for free are total fantasy


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## Don Haines (Jul 5, 2017)

Orangutan said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > ecka said:
> ...



The cost of a FF sensor was $35 three years ago..... given inflation, it is still well under $50.....

I would be willing to bet that the total cost of parts (to Canon) to build a 6D2 is well under $250... The real costs are the R+D to design the camera and components, setting up fabrication lines, the software, the assembly, printing, distribution, ect etc etc


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 5, 2017)

ecka said:


> Isn't it stupid to expect APS-C camera's AF system in a FF camera? ... The whole thing is ridiculous. This greedy marketing segmentation is unjustifiable.



It's stupid to expect that Canon needs to justify anything to us (except those of us who happen to be shareholders). 




ecka said:


> 6D2 is crippled on purpose.



'Crippled' only relative to what _you think_ it could be...objectively, it's a very capable camera that improves substantially on its predecessor in many ways. 




ecka said:


> ...I don't know.



_Now_ you're starting to make sense.


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## Orangutan (Jul 5, 2017)

ecka said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...


See Don's post above. I believe he has some knowledge of the industry, but not Canon specifically. I would trust his estimate.



> I'm just saying that it doesn't cost much.


Per-unit cost, that's true. Again, see Don's post. There's also the entire customer support structure -- that ain't cheap.

You are right, the individual parts don't cost that much, but building and supporting the system does have significant costs. The more important truth is that it doesn't matter what it costs them, it's what the buyers, as a collective group, are willing to pay.


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## unfocused (Jul 5, 2017)

ecka said:


> You guys are crazy
> Those part don't cost Canon the same amount they sell it to you. Use your brains!...



This whole discussion is crazy and brainless. 

This is like calculating the value of a professional photographer's work by comparing the price of Compact Flash cards. 

The cost of manufacturing an individual component (and no one on this forum even knows what that cost may be) has almost nothing to do with the retail price, which has to take into consideration all of the costs to put the product on the retailer's shelves. The bulk of those costs are embedded costs for marketing, research, development, transportation, technical support, warranty support, distribution network, packaging, etc. etc. etc. 

Cherry-picking what you *think* an individual component might be worth is the real crazy here.


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## Don Haines (Jul 5, 2017)

ecka said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > ecka said:
> ...


I do not know what the cost to Canon of the components is.

Camera sells for $2000.....

Store makes some profit... Typical retail for electronics is 30-60 percent. Canon forces a pricing structure so the odds are very good that the retail price is 50% or higher markup, so that makes the dealer cost around $1300...

The camera had to get to the store from the factory.... There is an entire distribution network to maintain and there are duties to bring it into the country..... if we assume that all this could be done for a 30 percent markup, then that means the factory got $1000 for that camera.

Someone had to put all those components together....
Someone had to write the manuals and print them.....
Someone had to write all that software on the DVD that came with your new camera.....
Someone had to put it all into a box....
Someone had to do the R+D to make that Canon sensor....
Someone had to build a fabrication line....
Someone had to run it.....
Someone had to do the same with every other component in the camera.....
someone had to write the software in the camera....
Someone has to do HR for all those people.....
Someone has to build the factory...
Someone has to provide global oversight...
Someone has to pay the utilities bill....
Someone has to sweep the floors....
And they all want to be paid.....
Oh yes, the shareholders..... for some strange reason, they want to receive a return on their investment.... 

There is an awful lot that has to be paid for out of that $1000.... I suspect that if the cost of the components to build the camera were more than 10 percent, then it could not be done....


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## ecka (Jul 5, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Orangutan said:
> ...



Exactly.
Economically speaking, making inferior parts that don't cost less than the good stuff, isn't economical at all , even if the final product is sold cheaper. It takes extra R+D investments and production lines. Instead, they could just sell more good stuff by selling it cheaper.


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## unfocused (Jul 5, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> Someone had to put all those components together....
> Someone had to write the manuals and print them.....
> Someone had to write all that software on the DVD that came with your new camera.....
> Someone had to put it all into a box....
> ...



You haven't even scratched the surface. There is a lot more to costs than those directly associated with getting product to market:

Someone has to pay Rudy Winston and all the other tech reps...
Someone has to write their white papers...
Someone has to write website content...
Someone has to pay for website maintenance, updates, design, etc. etc...
Someone has to pay for warranty repairs...
Someone has to write, tape, edit and distribute their videos..
Someone has to pay for advertising...
Someone has to pay the "Explorers of Light"...
Someone has to pay the people who answer the phones...
Etc. Etc. Etc. 

It's absolutely silly to calculate the cost of a product based solely on what some people _*think*_ a component might cost.


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## Mikehit (Jul 5, 2017)

ecka said:


> Instead, they could just sell more good stuff by selling it cheaper.



And your experience of manufacturing industry is....what exactly?

Imagine a wedding photographer saying "I will process an additional 50 photos for you - it will be free of charge because I am sat at my computer anyway so additional costs are minimal"

Or, to go back to cars, demand they put on 4 tyres from the next quality level up. It will only cost $200 and the cost of a car is 20,000 so the difference is minimal.

I note you haven't explained to me where you got your estimate of prices for sensors and AF chips...


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## Hector1970 (Jul 5, 2017)

It looks a pretty decent camera to me for a 6D. 4K is totally wasted on most users. The files are way too big. You need very good hardware to process it. HD is more usuable on a general purpose camera. (Personally I think filmmakers who use DSLRs should spend more time on good actors and script than worrying about 4K).
It's a photographers camera. Focus points BT's and focus points spreads are a minor issue. I think it's a bit of an illusion that more of them is a Great Leap Forward. If the ones you have work then you'll do just fine. Frame rate is surprisingly high. It makes it very all purpose. I think if you can't take good photographs with a camera with those specs you should consider another hobby. It's a much more discernible improvement than the 5DIII to 5DIV.
I'd be confident most users buying it will be happy with it. 
It would be nice if Canon had something a little more exciting in the bag in the next 12 months. A mirror less camera the size of a 5D/6D than can out frame rate a 1DX would be good. Olympus have a good thing on their OMD M1 II with Pro Mode. It holds about 14 frames in a buffer while holding partially the shutter button. If Canon could do that for even more frames (5 or 6 seconds worth ) it would be great for sport/wildlife etc).


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## Don Haines (Jul 5, 2017)

unfocused said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > <SNIP>
> ...



And someone has to pay Neuro for all those postings..... even at $0.01 per word, Canon must owe him millions of dollars by now....... That's a lot of cameras they have to sell to keep us informed/entertained


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## ethanz (Jul 5, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



+1 ;D


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 5, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> And someone has to pay Neuro for all those postings..... even at $0.01 per word, Canon must owe him millions of dollars by now....... That's a lot of cameras they have to sell to keep us informed/entertained



I'm so sorry, Don. Canon HQ really didn't want it known that paying my fee is why they had to cut costs on the 6DII by gimping it with the 80D's AF module. It was probably just a wild guess on your part, but Canon's legal department isn't known for believing in coincidence. Best of luck with your forthcoming legal difficulties.


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## ashmadux (Jul 6, 2017)

David_B said:


> I've been reading lots of posts on this website about the 6D Mark II and decided to write first post for this poll.
> 
> This camera looks good but who is it for?
> 
> ...




It's not that hard to figure out. Part of the problem is that if your usage pattern does not necessitate a certain body, then it's no real concern of yours, making it hard to distinguished whom (ie. what kind of shooter) it is for.

As a 6d1 owner, I'd love to trade up and take pressure off my workhorse 5d3. For landscapes, this will also be aces, with flippy and touchscreen. Time lapses? Never shot one in my life, but now I can in 4k. Great. More Mp? bigger prints, more cropping for us serious croppers (crop till you drop!).

With decent AF points, can also capture action. Studio? In the bag. Probably the only thing this isn't "great" for is expeditions and the Olympics, or paparazzi.

SO basically, you obviously dont "need' a full frame camera. Some of us absolutely do. And as a basic FF cam, this covers a lot of basic needs. And for the love of all that's holy, there's a FLIPPY SCREEN. I haven't had another since my g12.


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