# Canon EOS 7D Mark III Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 7, 2017)

```
We’re told that Canon plans to announced the successor to the EOS 7D Mark II some time in the first half of 2018. The CP+ trade show in February is a logical possibility, although not guaranteed as I’d expect the EOS 90D to come for that show.</p>
<p>The EOS 7D Mark II was announced ahead of Photokina in 2014, which is where we expected a follow-up to be announced in 2018.</p>

<p>While we have no specifications, we are told that the EOS 7D Mark III will come with a few more video bells and whistles, like 4K recording, which at the time of writing this would be the first APS-C Canon camera to have this feature.</p>
<p>My gut says we’ll see an EOS 90D announced before the EOS 7D Mark III, so the “first half of 2018” could mean late Q2.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
<div style="font-size:0px;height:0px;line-height:0px;margin:0;padding:0;clear:both"></div>
```


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## weixing (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Hi,
Err... You mean Canon 7D Mark III?? :

Have a nice weekend ahead!!


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## rrcphoto (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

7D Mark II in the first part of next year sets up the 120MP 5DsR Mark II for photokina


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## 1Zach1 (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Might time up well to replace my 40D, but really moved to using my EOS M most of the time now.


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## derekmccoy (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

You mean Mark III?

I wouldn't expect a 7D Mark III until Q2 2019.....


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## xps (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

I like this rumor 8)
24 MP with lesser noise.... pleeeease. And maybe 4k...


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## Sharlin (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

7D3 for 2018 makes sense. But 90D? I wouldn't expect that one before 2019 or late 2018 given the pretty stable three-year cycle that has been going on with the xxD bodies as of late. But maybe CRG knows something I don't... ??? 

(Up until the 50D, the xxD release cycle was _much_ faster. But the market was less mature back then.)


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## tron (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Hey CR guy (thread title) and rrcphoto 



rrcphoto said:


> 7D Mark II in the first part of next year sets up the 120MP 5DsR Mark II for photokina



please correct your obvious mistakes 

P.S Unless 7D MkII is a camera from the future ;D ;D ;D

P.S2 I too would like a 7D3 with less noise than 7D2 (everything else is pretty good)


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## RickWagoner (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Look at my old posts from last year. i talked about what the 7d3 will be. The SD card wifi is what Canon used to stall the release date back a quarter


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## BasXcanon (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Actually a pretty logic time.
Just before the Winter Olympics.


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## jebrady03 (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

I could be wrong, but I don't recall a single instance where the first mention of a replacement was even close to correct.


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## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

If true about the 7D2, this is a shocker, IMHO. 

*Canon almost never follows up a product faster than its last refresh* -- they've been adding so many new lines to the portfolio that it's virtually impossible to keep a consistent refresh schedule. Even Rebels -- once an annually updated product line -- have done to a 2 year cycle in recent years.

Projected 7D3 and 90D dates are here, and neither were in 2018:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=32819.msg669658#msg669658

If true about the 7D2, one might guess the D500 is taking some business from Canon.

Again: file under 'Shocking' if true. Wow.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

I think some people are going to lose their minds over this news.

- A


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## tron (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



ahsanford said:


> I think some people are going to lose their minds over this news.
> 
> - A


I can be patient. My 5DsR helps a little on this


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## tron (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

There is a CR3 that a new CR2 will appear for a 7D3 coming Second Half of 2018 only to be replaced by a CR3 about a 7D3 coming First or Second Half of 2019 ;D ;D ;D


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## djack41 (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Listen up, Canon. 1) Please improve ISO performance by at least 1-1.5 stops. 2) Increase DR. 3) Add 1-2 FPS 4) Flip screen. 

If need be, reduce MP to accomplish this. Now it will be a much improved all-round camera especially for wildlife, BIF, sports etc.


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## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



djack41 said:


> Listen up, Canon. 1) Please improve ISO performance by at least 1-1.5 stops. 2) Increase DR. 3) Add 1-2 FPS 4) Flip screen.
> 
> If need be, reduce MP to accomplish this. Now it will be a much improved all-round camera especially for wildlife, BIF, sports etc.



1) I wish you luck with that.

2) Done. That's a 100% certainty with a move to on-chip ADC, though it won't be a game-changing bump.

3) Possible. Perhaps a reasonable ask if the 7D3 is being accelerated because of the D500's sales.

4) That's a really tough one. This rig is supposed to be the war horse sort of product the 1-series is. I could see Canon playing it ultra-conservative and leave a tilty-flippy out of a 7D3. I see future 5D rigs with a tilty-flippy, but the 1-series and 7-series may end up getting them last.

- A


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## GMCPhotographics (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



ahsanford said:


> I think some people are going to lose their minds over this news.
> 
> - A



I think those "some people" lost their minds way before they took up photography. There is an insanity that occurs when Canon launch a new camera....it's really very bizarre. I tend to avoid all camera forums for at least 2 weeks to be free from that particular weirdness.


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## Chaitanya (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Dont we already have a 7D mark II? 


Here is one of sample pics from D500, its quite impressive camera and I know a lot of birders(who came to Canon system after 1st 7D as Nikon didnt release replacement to D300/s and now are back to shooting Nikon with D500 and 200-500mm lens)


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## adam_kae (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Finally, Here comes the right time to merge XXD series with 7D line up.


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## honestlo (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

may be still no 4k but instead come with 1080p 60fps !!


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## unfocused (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

I think the prediction might be a bit premature. I was expecting the second half of 2018.

Predicting new bodies based on past refresh cycles is a sure way to be wrong. Canon releases bodies when the technology and market is ready, not by some arbitrary schedule.

This should give us about a year of ridiculously raised expectations (1-1/1/2 stops high ISO noise improvement) followed by the inevitable disappointment and howls of how Canon is *******. 

I'm with the skeptics about the 90D release. I expect the 7DIII will have a new sensor and I expect Canon will go back to the original pattern of putting the new sensor into the XXD model six months to a year after it goes into the 7DIII. (Also possible the 7DIII gets a unique sensor that will never trickle down, but that would be out of character.)

Guaranteed:

On chip ADC will improve dynamic range a bit and may improve noise a bit;
Fully functional touch screen, wifi, nfc, blue tooth, GPS, etc.;
Next generation of autofocus (whatever that may be);
Another frame or two of fps speed;
Incremental improvements in sealing, build, etc.;
Multiple f8 focus points.

Likely: 

Increase in mp count
First 4K in crop sensor 

Possible: 

One CFast and one CF Card slot to match 1DX II;
Next generation of the 5DIV post-exposure focus adjustment
Might be paired with the announcement of the mysterious 150-500/600 unicorn zoom. 

I was worried that with the release of the 6DII this forum would have nothing new to fight about. Looks like that problem has been solved.


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## ashmadux (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

The 7dmk2 is coming...but already here...but....

omg

(head explodes)

This should be interesting. The d500 rains all over the meh 7d2's parade already wet parade. The AF spread alone is spectacular. Auto AF tine tuning? Oh, apparently Canon doesn't think we want that.

Personally I hope the 7d2 tanks from here on in, so it can help dear ol' canon revive this once great line. 7d2= 'meh' sauce. and man do i despise that sensor. 7d3 has a chance to bring it back to glory.

Even the original 6d got more buzz then the 7d2.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

The 7D2 is a great camera but i think Canon made a few mistakes:

1. leaving out the touchscreen - really? Including DPAF and leaving out touchscreen was strange. Basically every camera after the 7D2 has touchscreen, including the cheapest and most expensive one, the toughest and the most plasticky. 

2. WIFI - I think Canon regretted this and tried to fix it later with the wifi "SD card"


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## applecider (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

This is my experience as well the photographers that I know who are birders are on the d500 and the 200-500 lens. They take some really nice images. The two I know rather well have both moved from the tamron lenses to the Nikon. They claim that the autofocus system is the best but they miss as many captures as I do with the 5D4. Their high iso images don't seem too far behind the 5D4 despite the 1.5x Nikon crop. So improvement of the sensor would seem to be critical to match or exceed the Nikon.







Chaitanya said:


> Dont we already have a 7D mark II?
> 
> 
> Here is one of sample pics from D500, its quite impressive camera and I know a lot of birders(who came to Canon system after 1st 7D as Nikon didnt release replacement to D300/s and now are back to shooting Nikon with D500 and 200-500mm lens)


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## padam (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Just like the 70D - 7DII relationship, it will probably use a similar sensor to the 80D but with Dual Digic 7 processors (a bit better noise performance) and a revamped AF and metering system (no more AF points but more available with f/8 maximum aperture and tracking better) and slight ergonomic changes. Fixed touch screen like the 5D IV would be logical.

After that we will probably see a 5DSR replacement and maybe something new on the mirrorless line as well.


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## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



unfocused said:


> Predicting new bodies based on past refresh cycles is a sure way to be wrong. Canon releases bodies when the technology and market is ready, not by some arbitrary schedule.



Agree, but when's the last time a product line got refreshed _faster_ than it did before? I'm hard pressed to think of when that was.

I don't think any of us are sitting here with a stopwatch expecting our next [insert brand here] refresh in 3, 2, 1... I'm just saying that Canon has bulked up the portfolio and can't just break into a gallop when it feels like it.

So, yes, the 7D3 could absolutely come next year, but it would be rather un-Canon-like to do so. If it did, one would logically think the D500 + 200-500 combo was indeed doing market share damage to Canon such that it felt compelled to shake things up with their pipeline. I can't really think of another reason why they wouldn't try to maximize the ROI on their '5-year mission' with the 7D line.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



unfocused said:


> Guaranteed:
> 
> Likely:
> 
> Possible:



Good list. Agree in broad strokes. 

+1 on the unicorn (longer than 400 without a T/C) super zoom coming out with it. That's a no-brainer release pairing to me.

- A


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## whothafunk (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

in terms of stills shooting its not gonna blow the 1DX away so meh.

if they manage to make the sensor as good as D500, its gonna be something. that sensor is just superb for aps-c.


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## unfocused (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



ahsanford said:


> ...when's the last time a product line got refreshed _faster_ than it did before? I'm hard pressed to think of when that was...
> 
> ...yes, the 7D3 could absolutely come next year, but it would be rather un-Canon-like to do so. If it did, one would logically think the D500 + 200-500 combo was indeed doing market share damage to Canon such that it felt compelled to shake things up with their pipeline...



I think the 7D and 7D II timeline is misleading. There were a couple of unique factors from what I can tell. First, Nikon all but abandoned the market at the time, leaving the 7D with no competition. Second, there is some evidence that Canon was undertaking major changes in its manufacturing that may have delayed development of the 7DII. The firmware release of the 7D 1/2 was certainly unusual and kind of screws up any timeline for the 7D series. 

Still, even with all that factored in, the refresh does seem to be coming sooner than expected (if the rumor is correct). I don't doubt for a minute that the D500 may have something to do with that -- although in terms of actual performance, the 7DII holds its own against the newer D500. (The sample photograph someone posted above that was shot with a D500 doesn't show anything that couldn't be done with a 7DII)

I would add that I think Canon did make a couple of errors with the 7DII by not including a full touch screen, full wifi and multiple f8 focus points. The fact that they released the wifi card is pretty strong evidence that they know they make a mistake on that front.

Finally, perception can be everything and even though the 7DII gives up very little ground to the D500, that is not what many people think. So I agree Canon may be feeling some competitive pressure. 

If they release the 7DIII with a 500mm f5.6 "L" zoom that sells for $3,000 or less they will recapture any lost ground and then some. I personally hope they steer away from a cheap "consumer" zoom like Nikon's.


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## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

I always though the biggest miss in the 7D2 was putting DPAF in there but leaving out the touchscreen to make it sing. Touch to focus is terrific. 

- A


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## Lurker (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Lets not forget the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami.

I don't know that Canon said specifically which products were delayed/impacted but I'm pretty sure they acknowledged that facilities and capabilities took a hit. The 7D II came out much later than expected at the time and there was the unusual, if not unprecedented, 7D update that was more than just fixes.
It seems misguided to expect the 7DII-7DIII refresh period to be in any way related to the 7D-7DII refresh period.


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## Sharlin (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



jayt567 said:


> Please Canon, less focus on video features and more on improving image quality, noise, high ISO, sharpness performance.



Low ISO IQ will be improved almost certainly. High ISO IQ... well, you're fighting against physics there. Expecting any large improvements there is just not realistic.


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## Mikehit (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



ashmadux said:


> Auto AF tine tuning? Oh, apparently Canon doesn't think we want that.



From what I have read from people who actually used that on the Nikon weren't particularly impressed with it. Seems like one of those 'nice ideas in theory but needs much more work in practice'.


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## aceflibble (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

The main issue is whether it will have a low pass filter or not. The 7D line is analogous to Nikon's D500 and that Nikon has been moving sports and wildlife photographers over as the lack of filter makes it able to render far more detail than the 7D2. The 7D3 is going to have to either have no filter or have the filter but break new ground in APS-C resolution (think 30mp+ to overcome the filter) to stay competitive. With a filter on the current 24mp limit, the Nikon will continue to be the best choice for sports & wildlife.



jayt567 said:


> The time for for 4K was in the 6DII which is more likely to be used as a wedding camera


A) The 6D2 only has one card slot; it's not a wedding camera.
B) The "time for 4K" was every camera in the last 18 months or so, but looking forward, it makes most sense for the 90D and 7D3 to get it over the 6D2 which is primarily set as a stills upgrade and a manufacturer's replacement of the 5D3.


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## Mikehit (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



aceflibble said:


> The 6D2 only has one card slot; it's not a wedding camera.



Rubbish. Every time this talk of 'second card slot' comes up it is clear there are many pros who don't think a second slot is important. 
And even if it is not one that some pros look to as a primary camera,if you are saying lack of dual slots remove it as a back up I would venture you don't really know what you are talking about.



aceflibble said:


> B) The "time for 4K" was every camera in the last 18 months or so, but looking forward, it makes most sense for the 90D and 7D3 to get it over the 6D2 which is primarily set as a stills upgrade


And the 7D3 would not be primarily a stills camera? 
Jeez, we've had 50+ pages of discussion on this for the 6D2 that is only just been released and you are already critcising Canon on this issue for a camera that is not even going to be announced for another year...?


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## BillB (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Lurker said:


> Lets not forget the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami.
> 
> I don't know that Canon said specifically which products were delayed/impacted but I'm pretty sure they acknowledged that facilities and capabilities took a hit. The 7D II came out much later than expected at the time and there was the unusual, if not unprecedented, 7D update that was more than just fixes.
> It seems misguided to expect the 7DII-7DIII refresh period to be in any way related to the 7D-7DII refresh period.



Canon has been implementing an major upgrading of sensor technology, including touchscreen focussing, on sensor ADC, and PDAF across its camera line. It seems likely that some disruption of this strategy influenced what features the 7DIi did or did not have, as well as the timing of its release. The disruption could have been by the earthquake, or it could have been from unanticipated problems in the implementation of some features, which were then left out of the 7DII.

In any case, the 7DIii could become something of a catchup camera to get things back on track, which could lead to a 7DIII showing up sooner rather than later.


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## BillB (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Mikehit said:


> ashmadux said:
> 
> 
> > Auto AF tine tuning? Oh, apparently Canon doesn't think we want that.
> ...



If the future is mirrorless EFV, what does that say about the future of AF fine tuning?


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## BillB (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



jayt567 said:


> aceflibble said:
> 
> 
> > The main issue is whether it will have a low pass filter or not. The 7D line is analogous to Nikon's D500 and that Nikon has been moving sports and wildlife photographers over as the lack of filter makes it able to render far more detail than the 7D2. The 7D3 is going to have to either have no filter or have the filter but break new ground in APS-C resolution (think 30mp+ to overcome the filter) to stay competitive. With a filter on the current 24mp limit, the Nikon will continue to be the best choice for sports & wildlife.
> ...



There are plenty of people taking pictures at weddings who are not doing it for the money.


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## unfocused (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



aceflibble said:


> The main issue is whether it will have a low pass filter or not...Nikon has been moving sports and wildlife photographers over as the lack of filter makes it able to render far more detail than the 7D2.



Seriously? You really think that's a big issue? 

I'm not enthusiastic about battling a bunch of moire patterns in bird feathers.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



BillB said:


> jayt567 said:
> 
> 
> > aceflibble said:
> ...



There are plenty of professional wedding photographers who have used cameras not capable of recording images in duplicate. Think 5DII. Think D700. Think _decades_ of film photography.


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## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



jayt567 said:


> Since when has matching or exceeding Nikon, or anyone else for that matter, been a priority for Canon? Not bashing or trying to start a war, but if that was a concern they should have made more dramatic changes to the 6D to compete with the upcoming D750 replacement....or for that matter the current D750.



Broadly, you are correct, but the 6D1 sold like gangbusters regardless of any spec shortcomings vs. Nikon's D610 or D750. 

I think it's a segment by segment sort of call by Canon corporate. If Canon has data that is showing the D500 + 200-500 is actually stealing market share in this segment, one would logically think Canon _might_ change their plans and bring the 7D3 forward in the pipeline. Again, we have zero data to back that up, but it's one potential reason why a 7D3 might come sooner rather than later.

Another potential reason is, as I believe unfocused pointed out, that the market dynamic of (a) Nikon leaving this 'top APS-C'/birding segment to rot for many years and the (b) strange mid-cycle 7D1 firmware-to-extend-the-lifecycle move might mean that our normal 'crystal ball based on their normal cycle time' retrospective looks might not be so telling. _It's possible this was when the 7D3 was always going to come out regardless of the D500._

I still contend this is unexpectedly soon for a 7D3 and this rumor seems suspect at first glance -- but who knows? It may happen.

- A


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## jolyonralph (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



unfocused said:


> aceflibble said:
> 
> 
> > The main issue is whether it will have a low pass filter or not...Nikon has been moving sports and wildlife photographers over as the lack of filter makes it able to render far more detail than the 7D2.
> ...



I think it's a big issue. And having taken 50,000+ photos on the 5DSR I've yet to find a single image that has been ruined by moire patterns. I'm sure it *could* happen. But the clear advantages in image resolution outweigh the marginal risks to me.


However, I don't think Canon are brave enough to do a 7D III without the filter just yet because people are scared about this, and I can't see them doing two versions. So I'd suspect it will stay.


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## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



jolyonralph said:


> However, I don't think Canon are brave enough to do a 7D III without the filter just yet because people are scared about this, and I can't see them doing two versions. So I'd suspect it will stay.



Also: Canon's investment in DPAF (and how it gives Canon a huge leg up for amateur / enthusiast video work) will make it really hard to offer just an AA free camera.

As much as the 5D2 legacy of being groundbreaking with video in relatively affordable SLRs may be RIP, the notion that every SLR is also a fine tool for video has not and will not go away anytime soon.

- A


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## Ozarker (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



jayt567 said:


> aceflibble said:
> 
> 
> > The main issue is whether it will have a low pass filter or not. The 7D line is analogous to Nikon's D500 and that Nikon has been moving sports and wildlife photographers over as the lack of filter makes it able to render far more detail than the 7D2. The 7D3 is going to have to either have no filter or have the filter but break new ground in APS-C resolution (think 30mp+ to overcome the filter) to stay competitive. With a filter on the current 24mp limit, the Nikon will continue to be the best choice for sports & wildlife.
> ...



There is a photographer around here that uses a 70D for weddings and gets paid. Does lots of weddings and boudoir work. Any camera can be a wedding camera. I don't think Canon says, "We've got to make a wedding camera." I think the conversation revolves around the technology which makes the cameras versatile and useful in most any situation.


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## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*




jolyonralph said:


> However, I don't think Canon are brave enough to do a 7D III without the filter just yet because people are scared about this, and I can't see them doing two versions. So I'd suspect it will stay.



But I could see them offer two versions. 

I still don't get why Canon doesn't offer that additional version of a 7D# with the AA removed for an absurd price, like $2500. Enough stills-only birders/wildlife folks would pay for that, one would think.

- A


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## rrcphoto (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



ahsanford said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Predicting new bodies based on past refresh cycles is a sure way to be wrong. Canon releases bodies when the technology and market is ready, not by some arbitrary schedule.
> ...



except you ignore the impact of the earthquake and tsunami on canon's facilities during the time in which alot of your "delay" of cameras comes into play. Also at the time, canon had to have been upgrading sensor facilities to support the new ADC sensors. that takes time as well.

to be honest, no one, and no chart is going to guess at when canon is ready to release another camera.

Given the newer sensor tech that canon is using, the 7D Mark III needs to come out sooner than later, and a chart doesn't change that fact. that and the 5DSr IMO, are replaced next year as the two remaining cameras with old styled sensors.


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## rrcphoto (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



ahsanford said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > However, I don't think Canon are brave enough to do a 7D III without the filter just yet because people are scared about this, and I can't see them doing two versions. So I'd suspect it will stay.
> ...



why? it's easy enough to get around the AA filter nowadays with smart deconvolution based sharpening.


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## BillB (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



ahsanford said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > However, I don't think Canon are brave enough to do a 7D III without the filter just yet because people are scared about this, and I can't see them doing two versions. So I'd suspect it will stay.
> ...



Maybe the question is not whether video will go away, but which video market is the one to exploit. Is it the market that wants 4K, or is it the market for an easy, relatively fool proof 1080 with a tilty-flippy screen with touch focussing? It seems pretty clear to me which market the 6DII is aimed at. Over the last couple of weeks several posters have energetically and repetitively helped us understand that the 6DII does not meet the needs of the 4K market, a point that I would have thought was obvious pretty much from the beginning.


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## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



rrcphoto said:


> to be honest, no one, and no chart is going to guess at when canon is ready to release another camera.



100% fair statement. We're just looking at historical tea leaves as a read on the future. It's a decidedly imperfect method.



rrcphoto said:


> Given the newer sensor tech that canon is using, the 7D Mark III *needs* to come out sooner than later, and a chart doesn't change that fact. that and the 5DSr IMO, are replaced next year as the two remaining cameras with old styled sensors.



^^ This is the heart of it to me -- some folks believe they are *due* a next-gen sensor in their chosen product line. ^^

I can't tell if you are conflating your sense of technology entitlement with Canon's deepest desires, or you have data that says that Canon needs to act or the sky will fall in this segment. I don't say this as a flame, but it kinda sounds like the former. Canon doesn't need to do a damn thing unless they are not being as profitable as they'd planned.

I'm not saying the 7D3 is definitively not happening next year, but I would be stunned it is due to _urgency to delivering the market a better sensor_. It might just be that the D500 woke up a dormant market and Canon needs a shiny new something in a box to push at that market.

- A


----------



## 9VIII (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

The 7D2 has already been practically discontinued in Canada.: http://www.photoprice.ca/product/05537/Canon-EOS-7D-Mark-II-price.html

I've actually been expecting some 7D3 news for a few weeks now.


More than anything right now I'm still _really_ hoping the 90D gets a 30-40MP sensor, I want 5Ds type resolution, but not the large body size.
Sigma's glass can handle the pixel density.
(And 40MP on a 3:2 aspect ratio sensor lines up almost perfectly with 8K horizontal resolution, so the best quality pictures will always come from a 40MP+ sensor. 8K is probably coming sooner than most people expect, the Japanese will be broadcasting the 2020 Tokyo Olympic games in "Super Hi-Vision" 8K so the display industry will have to ramp up for it, right now they're just finalizing the necessary specs for HDMI 2.1 to support it.)


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Mr. Neuro, there are plenty of people out their who paid there house, house contents, motor vehicle or professional insurance for all their life but never were in the need to lodge the claim. I am sure you understand that it is important to stay risk aversed and also be responsible and avoid risks of loosing those photos of once in the lifetime event, never repeat again moments being wedding ceremony, etc for so many happy couples out their. Dual redundant card slot is just that: inexpensive insurance.
Therefore I would hazard to call any wedding photographer that consider taking risk shooting such an important events with non-redundant card slot an irresponsible person. Yes, irresponsible. I am sorry, Mr. Neuro, but back in the analogous days of film photography the redundancy was not so easily achievable as nowadays. Therefore I would argue, with all due respect, that your "back in the film day" example was not quite relevant. 

The leading photographers and photo professional associations should take the lead and raise the bar in calling on industry to support compulsory dual redundant card standard in professional settings. 





neuroanatomist said:


> BillB said:
> 
> 
> > jayt567 said:
> ...


----------



## greger (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

I was hoping for a third quarter 2017 release for the 7D Mark 3. I felt the 7Dll was a fail with no wifi. Others thought I was a Troll for not swallowing the Canon Kool-aid and how dare I complain. My 7D is still taking pictures that I like. Canon has released the sdx wifi card which totally redeems me. The troll haters of that day are the fools! If the 7Dlll is not what I want then I'll wait to see what the 90D has to offer. Maybe it's time for me to go full frame.


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*




SecureGSM said:


> Mr. Neuro, there are plenty of people out their who paid there house, house contents, motor vehicle or professional insurance for all their life but never were in the need to lodge the claim. I am sure you understand that it is important to stay risk aversed and also be responsible and avoid risks of loosing those photos of once in the lifetime event, never repeat again moments being wedding ceremony, etc for so many happy couples out their. Dual redundant card slot is just that: inexpensive insurance.
> Therefore I would hazard to call any wedding photographer that consider taking risk shooting such an important events with non-redundant card slot an irresponsible person. Yes, irresponsible. I am sorry, Mr. Neuro, but back in the analogous days of film photography the redundancy was not so easily achievable as nowadays. Therefore I would argue, with all due respect, that your "back in the film day" example was not quite relevant.
> 
> The leading photographers and photo professional associations should take the lead and raise the bar in calling on industry to support compulsory dual redundant card standard in professional settings.



Oh, Lord, here we go again. There are many experienced photographers who do not deny the advantages of dual slot but who say it is way, way down their list of priorities. To say the 6D2 is not a 'wedding camera' because of only one card slot is asinine.


----------



## rrcphoto (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



ahsanford said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > to be honest, no one, and no chart is going to guess at when canon is ready to release another camera.
> ...



sigh. it was said as it was said. canon has aggressively since the release of the 1DX Mark II revamped almost the entire lineup with ADC / DPAF sensors.

T7i
77D
80D
6D Mark II
5D Mark IV
1DX Mark II
M5
M6
SL2

All those were done in 17 months. The only cameras NOT revamped off the old sensors are:
T6 (they give this away probably not relevant)
M10 (probably not on this list shortly with the M20 due out)
7D Mark II
5DS/R

Keep in mind it costs money for canon to keep the old fab machines running just for those cameras.

with the advent of the SL2 having a DPAF sensor and costing 549 USD. it's now evident that creating ADC/DPAF sensors isn't expensive for canon anymore. with the first sensors out of that, canon claimed the yields were especially low.

The 5D makes the most sense for photokina. what's left? So yes, it needs to be replaced and sooner than later. Both do. Besides that, what other cameras does canon even have to replace next year?

and it's a winter olympics year, the perfect time to showcase a new cropped sports camera.


----------



## rrcphoto (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



greger said:


> I was hoping for a third quarter 2017 release for the 7D Mark 3. I felt the 7Dll was a fail with no wifi. Others thought I was a Troll for not swallowing the Canon Kool-aid and how dare I complain. My 7D is still taking pictures that I like. Canon has released the sdx wifi card which totally redeems me. The troll haters of that day are the fools! If the 7Dlll is not what I want then I'll wait to see what the 90D has to offer. Maybe it's time for me to go full frame.



probably not happening. on non-photokina years canon has rarely if at all done a camera release in Q3.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Mikehit said:


> SecureGSM said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Neuro, there are plenty of people out their who paid there house, house contents, motor vehicle or professional insurance for all their life but never were in the need to lodge the claim. I am sure you understand that it is important to stay risk aversed and also be responsible and avoid risks of loosing those photos of once in the lifetime event, never repeat again moments being wedding ceremony, etc for so many happy couples out their. Dual redundant card slot is just that: inexpensive insurance.
> ...



+1

Mr. SecureGSM, regarding insurance, how many of those homeowners and automobile owners would _personally choose_ to pay for that insurance? I am sure you understand that mortgageholders and lienholders mandate that such insurance be maintained by the owners (who aren't really owners while there's a balance on the loan), and that in general jurisdictions require at least liability insurance in most circumstances. So I'd argue, with all due respect, that your home/auto/business insurance example is not quite relevant. Incidentally, I know a few wedding pros with dual-slot cameras, who write to one card, with the second card as overflow. 

Also, given that the dual-slot implementation on most Canon bodies (my 1D X notwithstanding) involves a performance hit based on the lesser card slot, there's a tradeoff involved for that 'inexpensive insurance'. By the way, how do you conclude that it's 'inexpensive'?


----------



## rrcphoto (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



SecureGSM said:


> Mr. Neuro, there are plenty of people out their who paid there house, house contents, motor vehicle or professional insurance for all their life but never were in the need to lodge the claim.



well, house insurance is mandatory for a mortgage. car insurance is the law.

how many idiots drive in the USA without motorcycle helmets?

fun fact .. 1700+ americans died in 2015 because they didn't wear a helmet while riding or driving a motorcycle.


----------



## x-vision (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



rrcphoto said:


> ...
> 
> All those were done in 17 months. The only cameras NOT revamped off the old sensors are:
> T6 (they give this away probably not relevant)
> ...



Exactly. 

Moving all sensors to the new sensor tech is likely more cost-effective.
So, these updates are definitely pending.

My feeling is that the 5DS(R) successor(s) will be announced right before Photokina next year.
And the 7DIII will likely be announced sometime before that.

I'm not seeing a 90D announcement anytime soon, though. 

The 80D was announced less than three years after the 70D - which seemed a bit too soon, given that the 70D specs were quite good.
I'd speculate that the 80D release was driven by the 6DII release, as these two cameras seem to share a lot of components (certainly the AF system).
But now that the 6DII has been announced, is there a pressing need to update the 80D in 2018?? I doubt it - but who knows.


----------



## ScottyP (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



rrcphoto said:


> SecureGSM said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Neuro, there are plenty of people out their who paid there house, house contents, motor vehicle or professional insurance for all their life but never were in the need to lodge the claim.
> ...



Shouldn't they be wearing two helmets simultaneously though? No backup at all in case one fails?


----------



## goldenhusky (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Good job again CR after all the rumor has to go on isn't it  I do not expect Canon to release 7D3 in 2018 and if they did that will be nice but I have no interest in this camera unless Canon bumps up video specs which most likely it is not going to happen. The next camera I am interested in is 5DsR2. I guess that will not happen until late 2019 or 2020. 

My guess on 7D3 specs are
24mp
DPAF
CF and SD
fixed touch screen
May be a newer focus system
4k 30p MJPEG
2 or 3 more FPS
I would be happy to be proven wrong on some of the specs.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



rrcphoto said:


> well, house insurance is mandatory for a mortgage.



I genuinely did not know that. I've learned something today!


----------



## Cthulhu (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



unfocused said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > ...when's the last time a product line got refreshed _faster_ than it did before? I'm hard pressed to think of when that was...
> ...



I'm sorry but the D500 wipes the floor with the 7d2 in terms of image quality and performance, while having all the bells and whistles. It is exactly what I hoped the 7d2 would have been and I'd be very syrprised if Canon hasn't been working hard to best it.


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



SecureGSM said:


> The leading photographers and photo professional associations should take the lead and raise the bar in calling on industry to support compulsory dual redundant card standard in professional settings.



And what is a professional setting?

A pro uses whatever the right tool for the job is..... GoPros have been used to shoot scenes in Hollywood blockbusters, they are used in the Indy circuit.... I use a 6D in the anechoic chamber.... others use rebels at weddings... P/S cameras get used at national (and Olympic level) sporting events because they can be but in awkward places and controlled by WiFi.... and the drone we use for inspection work can not lift a 1DX2 and L glass....

There is no such thing as a pro camera. That is marketing hype..... For what you wish to be true, then EVERY camera needs a dual redundant slot and there can be no way for the photographer to bypass it. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 7, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Cthulhu said:


> I'm sorry but the D500 wipes the floor with the 7d2 in terms of image quality and performance, while having all the bells and whistles. It is exactly what I hoped the 7d2 would have been and I'd be very syrprised if Canon hasn't been working hard to best it.



Of course it does.... it is newer.....

And the 7D3 will be better than the D500....

And the successor to the D500 will be better than the 7D3...

And so on, and so on, and so on....

Both are great cameras and you can't go wrong with either!


----------



## rrcphoto (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



SecureGSM said:


> The leading photographers and photo professional associations should take the lead and raise the bar in calling on industry to support compulsory dual redundant card standard in professional settings.



the cameras aren't redundant, unless the buffers are nonvolatile memory and redundant as well. with cameras with 200+ shot buffers, thinking dual cards will protect you is like getting free antivirus software and leaving your firewall wide open.

it's an idiotic assumption, and you *STILL* can't guarantee that if the camera powers off at exactly the wrong moment that both cards aren't hosed simply being is that if they are writing at the same time, there's a high degree of certainty that they are *wear leveling* at the same time. if power dies during wear leveling, undesirable events may occur.

to have "redundant" cards as you put it, you'd have to have nonvolatile memory, change the write API for SD/CF cards to not perform wear leveling asynchronously, and for the camera to to a "read verify" of the image before removing it from said nonvolatile memory.

Since that will never be done, the protection offered by dual cards is convenient, however it's certainly not redundant.

Everyone *SHOULD* be rotating their SD/CF cards anyways, because they DO wear out over time.


----------



## Khufu (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

As somebody who's never been remotely emotionally invested in the APSC-Overkill line known as the 7D series, and having watched the 3-4 year cycle of "The Mark II is coming!" rumours with great amusement prior to its actual announcement, I'm quite confident in saying rumours of the Mark III coming any time before 2019 seem ridiculous... 

The 7D2 is doing fine. It's not going anywhere and it's not due to. I see someone posted a timeline which pretended the 7D was a 2010 camera; it wasn't. I was in HK in 2009 and it was all the rage back then... Maaaybe the Mark III shall be a very late 2018 release or announcement but I can't imagine Canon are in a hurry to suggest the 7D2 isn't the camera for whoever these Full-Frame-oblivious fanatics are who buy so many units... In my experience they're snapped up by anxious-to-be-professionals who don't yet realise they're not actually the best tool for the job; yeah, they mostly want to be event photographers but the camera store convinced them they want a 7D2... 

I'm waffling, I don't really care about this camera series and it's not going anywhere yet anyway, guys


----------



## rrcphoto (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Khufu said:


> As somebody who's never been remotely emotionally invested in the APSC-Overkill line known as the 7D series, and having watched the 3-4 year cycle of "The Mark II is coming!" rumours with great amusement prior to its actual announcement, I'm quite confident in saying rumours of the Mark III coming any time before 2019 seem ridiculous...
> 
> The 7D2 is doing fine. It's not going anywhere and it's not due to. I see someone posted a timeline which pretended the 7D was a 2010 camera; it wasn't. I was in HK in 2009 and it was all the rage back then... Maaaybe the Mark III shall be a very late 2018 release or announcement but I can't imagine Canon are in a hurry to suggest the 7D2 <snip>



in feb-march the 7D2 is 3.5 years old. no earthquake no tsunami to disrupt schedules. Canon replaced 1 series bodies quicker than that in the past. there's no reason they won't update the 7D if they feel the need to do so.


----------



## dak723 (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



jayt567 said:


> Please Canon, less focus on video features and more on improving image quality, noise, high ISO, sharpness performance. While the upgrade in af system and other features where great in the 7Dii, I was always disappointed in any image quality improvements there where. The time for for 4K was in the 6DII which is more likely to be used as a wedding camera and you missed the boat on that one. Just my opinion.



You do understand that this site is NOT associated with Canon in any way. So, if you have opinions for Canon, you should contact Canon.


----------



## aceflibble (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Mikehit said:


> Rubbish. Every time this talk of 'second card slot' comes up it is clear there are many pros who don't think a second slot is important.
> And even if it is not one that some pros look to as a primary camera,if you are saying lack of dual slots remove it as a back up I would venture you don't really know what you are talking about.


You've clearly never had a card fail on a professional job, costing you that job; I have. So has every other professional I know. The only people who don't think it is important are the lucky few who have so far, by sheer blind luck, not had a card fail on you. One day it _will_ fail on you and sod's law says it will always happen to your most vital files, and then you'll wish you'd had a second card slot to save you from this day-ruining, week-ruining, month-ruining, year-ruining, sometimes even career-ruining mishap.

You also don't get mugged every time you leave the house, but that doesn't mean you should feel safe walking around the city at night waving your wallet and phone in the air. Just because you've been lucky so far and/or you have the blessed feeling that nothing will ever go wrong for you does not magically protect you from it ever happening.



> And the 7D3 would not be primarily a stills camera?


No, that's not what I said or even implied. Reading comprehension is your friend; stay in school, kids.



jayt567 said:


> Not a wedding camera yet Canon's own site has sample images from the 6D II of brides in their gowns.......interesting.


Canon also has advertised entry-level SLRs and kit lenses with photos of wild tigers; that doesn't mean those cameras and lenses are going to be doing much wildlife photography, or be any good at it.


You people sure do have a habit of confusing corporate marketing with reality.


----------



## Azteck5000 (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

:-[ Well I was going to get the 6dMKII but now I am going to wait for the 7D MK III and I am sure by then the new 90d or 5D MK V will be coming out so I might as well hold on for that and awh hell I guess that's why I still have the original 5d


----------



## rrcphoto (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Azteck5000 said:


> :-[ Well I was going to get the 6dMKII but now I am going to wait for the 7D MK III and I am sure by then the new 90d or 5D MK V will be coming out so I might as well hold on for that and awh hell I guess that's why I still have the original 5d



lol


----------



## Woody (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Canon should improve on their Intelligent Tracking and Recognition algorithm for optical viewfinder shooting. I'll like to see them improve on this.


----------



## Woody (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



x-vision said:


> Moving all sensors to the new sensor tech is likely more cost-effective.
> So, these updates are definitely pending.
> 
> My feeling is that the 5DS(R) successor(s) will be announced right before Photokina next year.
> ...



Very reasonable. 

A high DR (@low ISO), high pixel count camera is highly desired by landscape photographers.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



aceflibble said:


> You've clearly never had a card fail on a professional job, costing you that job; I have.



Well, you probably shouldn't buy a camera with one card slot, then. But then, you also shouldn't think you have the right determine how others should choose and use their gear...yet you seem perfectly ok doing just that.


----------



## tron (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



jolyonralph said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > aceflibble said:
> ...


You must not shoot birds or you may shoot them from far away. I got my 5DsR on time for a 3 week vacation. I shot birds every day. I got better IQ than my 7D2 most of the time but some of my best bee eater and glossy ibis shots had moire.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



tron said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > And having taken 50,000+ photos on the 5DSR I've yet to find a single image that has been ruined by moire patterns. I'm sure it *could* happen. But the clear advantages in image resolution outweigh the marginal risks to me.
> ...



Or architecture. I've seen moiré in shots with my AA'd 1D X. Those specific shots would be fine with a 5DsR (because of the different pixel pitch), but no doubt other shots would be affected.


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



rrcphoto said:


> SecureGSM said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Neuro, there are plenty of people out their who paid there house, house contents, motor vehicle or professional insurance for all their life but never were in the need to lodge the claim.
> ...



Liability insurance is required by law for cars... to protect the guy you might hit, not yourself. Full coverage is required by lien holders because they actually own the vehicle until it is paid off. They have to ensure their property is protected. It is part of the contract with the financing entity.

It has always puzzled me as to why people consider themselves home owners or car owners when they are still being paid for.


----------



## weixing (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Hi,


tron said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...


 You can use any camera to shoot birds, but I prefer a APS-C over a 5DSR since I can't fill the frame and need to crop a lot if using a FF... also, the large file of 5DSR is quite discouraging.

Anyway, I saw a 7D mark II review indicate that 7D mark II had 10 times lower dark current than 6D and is the best long exposure low light photography camera in Canon line up at 2014... hopefully, the 7D Mark III will be better.

Anyway, have you try the latest DPP, it now add a function for reducing color moiré.

Have a nice day.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Firstly, no, not again. You are not paying attention. 
Emotional bias aside, let me better explain myself. 
I am not referring to 6D or any camera in particular. I am saying that shooting a once in a life time event on a single card is irresponsible. 
And secondly, this is nothing to do with some professionals priority list. It is all to do with being responsible and ensure protection of the footage for your clients sake. 
The list of photographer's priority is very different to the on of the groom and bride. 
But that's OK to disagree. However, next time you shoot weeding, please do let your client know that if the card will die unexpectedly during or at the end of the wedding ceremony, all the images will be lost and you will have to reshoot the entire day from the second one and see what their reaction will be. 
Or else, take responsibility and protect the outcomes. 



Mikehit said:


> SecureGSM said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Neuro, there are plenty of people out their who paid there house, house contents, motor vehicle or professional insurance for all their life but never were in the need to lodge the claim. I am sure you understand that it is important to stay risk aversed and also be responsible and avoid risks of loosing those photos of once in the lifetime event, never repeat again moments being wedding ceremony, etc for so many happy couples out their. Dual redundant card slot is just that: inexpensive insurance.
> ...


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Neuro,
Thank you for the response. Truly appreciate it. 
Firstly, an absolute majority of people do not understand a thing about security, probabilities, risk aversion and would not move a pinky unless they absolutely must due to compliance or else. That's humans for you. 
What sets professional apart is the understanding of how the potential irrecoverableloss of the footage may affect your client. Tell them upfront and ask them if they would be happy with the loss and see what their reaction will be. Secondly, home contents insurance is voluntary in Australia. Same with car insurance. You can choose to have your car insured or otherwise. 
Majority choose to protect their assets, car or belonging from an accidental loss, theft or damage. Others choose will not. 
Thirdly, those photographers that shoot weddings with a single slot are either irresponsible people or simply do not understand the risk. In either case: are not being professional enough and need to reconsider. 

Good to have an intelligent discussion with you, Sir. thank you. 



neuroanatomist said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > SecureGSM said:
> ...


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

Exactly, idiots or in another words - being irresponsible. If they lost their life due to their own negligence is very bad of course, but if photographer lost the entire wedding footage due to being irresponsible, unprofessional or idiot by your definition, that affects the groom and bride. Hence it is important to protect the footage. 
Home contents insurance is voluntary in AUSTRALIA, income protection insurance and termite protection as well. Many choose to take the extra cover. The intelligent people that is. The idiots will suffer consequences in the end. 


I am arguing that those idiots


rrcphoto said:


> SecureGSM said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Neuro, there are plenty of people out their who paid there house, house contents, motor vehicle or professional insurance for all their life but never were in the need to lodge the claim.
> ...


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



rrcphoto said:


> SecureGSM said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Neuro, there are plenty of people out their who paid there house, house contents, motor vehicle or professional insurance for all their life but never were in the need to lodge the claim.
> ...



How many died because of card failure?


----------



## dolina (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*

7D Mark I - 1 September 2009
7D Mark II - 15 September 2014
7D Mark III - September 2019

Any month in 2018 is very optimistic.

I wonder if they will use CFast or SDXC cards.


----------



## Cthulhu (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



neuroanatomist said:


> aceflibble said:
> 
> 
> > You've clearly never had a card fail on a professional job, costing you that job; I have.
> ...



Here you go again, arguing against conventionally established wisdom.
It has been a long time since I've seen anyone covering an event with a single slot camera, with the exception of secondary bodies. I've actually been asked a time or two if I shoot dual cards, because yelp exists and if you shoot to a single card you'll only survive until your card fails and you have a gigantic rant to warn potential clients that you'll ruin their special day.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Cthulhu said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > aceflibble said:
> ...


----------



## pwp (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



SecureGSM said:


> Firstly, no, not again. You are not paying attention.
> Emotional bias aside, let me better explain myself.
> I am not referring to 6D or any camera in particular. I am saying that shooting a once in a life time event on a single card is irresponsible.
> And secondly, this is nothing to do with some professionals priority list. It is all to do with being responsible and ensure protection of the footage for your clients sake.
> ...



Perfectly stated by _experienced _professionals. There is absolutely no valid argument against dual card slots. It is a photographers choice whether to use them or not. It's just plain professionally irresponsible not to exercise this simplest of options. Not just responsibility to the client, but to your own business and professional reputation. Hell, it's practically free insurance!

Yes, earlier digital bodies may not have offered the option, and cards did occasionally fail. Going back further to film days, losing a roll of film could be diabolical, but at the most you were losing 36 exposures, or 10-12 if using medium format. Chances are you're fitting a couple of thousand shots onto a 64 Gb card. Dual slots both shooting RAW, it's a no brainer.

-pw


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Cthulhu said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > aceflibble said:
> ...





pwp said:


> Perfectly stated by _experienced _professionals. There is absolutely no valid argument against dual card slots. It is a photographers choice whether to use them or not. It's just plain professionally irresponsible not to exercise this simplest of options.



LOL @ 'conventionally established wisdom'. So, 6 years ago when Canon and Nikon offered dual slots only in their 1- and D# series cameras, anyone using a 5DII or D700 was professionally irresponsible? A wedding shooter using Hasselblad who didn't upgrade from the H5D to the H6D last year is professionally irresponsible? Anyone shooting a wedding with a Sony a7R II is professionally irresponsible? Anyone shooting wedding video on 5DIV, which only records movies to one card, is professionally irresponsible? Sorry, that's just plain silly. 

I wonder who is more professionally responsible – a wedding photographer with a single 5DIV, or someone with a pair of 6DII bodies? Or if you have a 5DIV with a 6D as a backup camera, if your 5DIV fails on a job do you suddenly become professionally irresponsible when you pick up the 6D?


----------



## jolyonralph (Jul 8, 2017)

Please be quiet the lot of you. This is a pointless discussion.

The 7D Mark III will almost certainly have dual slots. 

So why are we all getting upset? If you want a camera with dual slots, Canon provide you an current option (7D series, 5D series, 1DX series)

If you want to save money and get a single-slot camera, there are options for you too.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jul 8, 2017)

I never thought the IQ of the 7D II was compelling, though other features seem great. Give us a clean high-ISO, high-DR cropped for action/wildlife, one that extracts the very best from L quality lenses, and I'll buy. 

No thanks to a flippy screen for something that is meant to be out in all types of weather and used 90% through the viewfinder. Even tilting a screen does little to make using it easier in blazing sun, which, in Florida, begins blazing by 7:30a.m. and stays that way for 12 hours.

I don't want a Swiss Army knife of a camera, but one that is designed for high performance in harsh conditions.

Otoh, a flippy screen on the 6DII makes perfect sense. I never miss it on the 5DIV, very rarely use it on the 80D because I don't do video. (Yet?) I guess it is ok for food photography and selfies though...


----------



## Orangutan (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



pwp said:


> There is absolutely no valid argument against dual card slots. It is a photographers choice whether to use them or not. It's just plain professionally irresponsible not to exercise this simplest of options. Not just responsibility to the client, but to your own business and professional reputation. Hell, it's practically free insurance!


I'm curious, how many weddings per year do you shoot, and what do you charge? Maintaining two dual-slot bodies, a second-shooter (or full partner), ultra-reliable transportation, etc. all cost money. There are many couples who cannot afford to spend even $1000 on wedding photography, let alone $2k, $3k or more. Your blanket edict about about dual-slot is more than a statement about photographers, it's a statement about less-affluent clients -- you're saying they should not be able to hire a part-time pro who shoots XXD bodies, and they should just ask Uncle Fred to shoot it, and hope to keep the sparkling wine hidden until after the ceremony.

I say yet again, it's entirely reasonable and desirable to have dual-slots, but that alone cannot possible encompass the full range of legitimate risks vs. costs that go into each photographer's decision. In short, a photographer will price himself out of the means of many couples if he insists on covering every minute risk. High-end photographers who serve high-end clients can afford this; others might not.


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## RickWagoner (Jul 8, 2017)

dual cards slots will be included. Touch screen but i have not seen a flippy screen just the same screen on the 5d4. Same body and same battery grip as 7d2. units have been tested with 24mp sensor but if canon waits long enough there is talk the production 7d3 will get 26mp or more. 

the D500 is killing it in sales, hell before the D500 came out Canon was having issues of 70D taking sales away from 7d2 back in the day. Canon responded with the sd/wifi card to prolong the 7d2 into 2018 but it is not working as they hoped. 

Canon will not wait 5 years to upgrade the 7d2 like they did with the 7d1..


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## Talys (Jul 8, 2017)

RickWagoner said:


> dual cards slots will be included. Touch screen but i have not seen a flippy screen just the same screen on the 5d4. Same body and same battery grip as 7d2. units have been tested with 24mp sensor but if canon waits long enough there is talk the production 7d3 will get 26mp or more.
> 
> the D500 is killing it in sales, hell before the D500 came out Canon was having issues of 70D taking sales away from 7d2 back in the day. Canon responded with the sd/wifi card to prolong the 7d2 into 2018 but it is not working as they hoped.
> 
> Canon will not wait 5 years to upgrade the 7d2 like they did with the 7d1..



The reason that D500 is killing 7D2 in sales is because most people who are interested in APSC stop looking at 80D.

At the moment, there's practically no reason to pick 7D2 over 80D (or, really, even 77D), which is an excellent APSC body. If think that without an articulating screen, a lot of people will STILL choose 80D or its successor -- 7D2 would need some wondrous top line spec bump like 4k video for there to be interest, IMO.


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## ahsanford (Jul 8, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> No thanks to a flippy screen for something that is meant to be out in all types of weather and used 90% through the viewfinder. Even tilting a screen does little to make using it easier in blazing sun, which, in Florida, begins blazing by 7:30a.m. and stays that way for 12 hours.
> 
> I don't want a Swiss Army knife of a camera, but one that is designed for high performance in harsh conditions.



I'm really am on the fence with the 7D3 having a tilty-flippy: 

It's very simple: video + DPAF says hell yes. I think the 5D4 fixed screen was a poor call for that reason.

But the great outdoors says perhaps not. I'd wager the 7D line gets more environmental abuse than a 5D or 6D camera would, i.e. I think a greater percentage of its user base is out in the bush, on the sidelines at games, etc. That says 'put robustness and durability first' and that the 7D3 might go the 5D4 screen route. (But in fariness, that same logic would argue against a pop-up flash.)

But perhaps in this instance -- if a 7D3 is indeed being brought forward due to D500 sales -- the tilty-flippy decision will have already been made for them by Nikon.

- A


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## Orangutan (Jul 8, 2017)

Talys said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > dual cards slots will be included. Touch screen but i have not seen a flippy screen just the same screen on the 5d4. Same body and same battery grip as 7d2. units have been tested with 24mp sensor but if canon waits long enough there is talk the production 7d3 will get 26mp or more.
> ...



This is what vigorous competition does for the buyers -- gives us better goods at lower prices. Let this be a lesson to all the DRones: when Nikon stepped-up in features other than DR, their sales improved.


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## BillB (Jul 8, 2017)

What would the 7DIII niche be in relation to the 80D/90D anyway? Some people will want a more rugged body, with more sophisticated AF in the OVF, along with higher gpd, but how many? How does touchscreen Liveview with DPAF affect the 7DII value proposition?


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## ahsanford (Jul 8, 2017)

RickWagoner said:


> dual cards slots will be included. Touch screen but i have not seen a flippy screen just the same screen on the 5d4. Same body and same battery grip as 7d2. units have been tested with 24mp sensor but if canon waits long enough there is talk the production 7d3 will get 26mp or more.
> 
> *the D500 is killing it in sales*, hell before the D500 came out Canon was having issues of 70D taking sales away from 7d2 back in the day. Canon responded with the sd/wifi card to prolong the 7d2 into 2018 but it is not working as they hoped.
> 
> Canon will not wait 5 years to upgrade the 7d2 like they did with the 7d1..



The bold bit above is the entire story here. Do we have data to back that up? 

I am not doubting you -- it seems a formidable camera -- but do we know it is really kicking Canon's tail or if it is simply bringing the long-neglected Nikon 'pro APS-C' birder/wildlifers back into the fold? Is it stealing market share or is it just a case of shifting faithful Nikonians into a new price point?

We're starved for market data here, so it's hard to peg if:

[list type=decimal]
[*]This rumor is BS


[*]This rumor is true, and Canon is actually accelerating its plans with the 7D3 due to market forces (i.e. the D500)


[*]This rumor is true, and Canon is simply deploying the 7D3 seemingly sooner to us because of the 5 year lifecycle for the 7D1 was an exception*, outlier, etc. and the 7D2 lifecycle is actually more in the line with the other major rigs on a traditional-ish 4 year timetable. 

*this pertains to the unique market situation around the whole earthquake / Nikon abandoning the segment without a D300S follow up / the decision to do a firmware 'lifecycle extension' to the 7D1, etc.


[*]This rumor is true, and Canon has found the means/resources to accelerate its development pipeline as it sees the ILC market as having bottomed-out and it believes that now is the time to go big and saturate the market with new bodies. (I'm not buying this at all.)



[*]This rumor is true, but some important new product slated for 2018 had a major delay or problem, and the 7D3 was brought forward to prevent a 'hole' in the pipeline from leaving Canon looking bad next year. (This is wild speculation, feel free to run with this nutty idea )
[/list]

Almost all my money is on #1 above, perhaps #2 -- but again, the public never sees market data in any appreciable depth that would be able to verify this.

Curious to see where everyone's heads are on this. What's your guess?

- A


----------



## scyrene (Jul 8, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



weixing said:


> You can use any camera to shoot birds, but I prefer a APS-C over a 5DSR since I can't fill the frame and need to crop a lot if using a FF... also, the large file of 5DSR is quite discouraging.



The 5Ds(R) has virtually identical pixel density as the 7D2 so you get the same number of pixels on target with the same focal length - there's no 'extra reach' in this case. However, the much larger files from the 5Ds(R), and slower fps may make it a less attractive bird camera for many.

Incidentally, for those discussing moiré, the Digital Picture's 5DsR review has a bird feather example, the -R showing more moiré than the -s, although even the 5D3 shows it in that example: http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-5Ds-R.aspx


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## ahsanford (Jul 8, 2017)

BillB said:


> What would the 7DIII niche be in relation to the 80D/90D anyway? Some people will want a more rugged body, with more sophisticated AF in the OVF, along with higher gpd, but how many? How does touchscreen Liveview with DPAF affect the 7DII value proposition?



Historically, the XXD line is much more than just tilty-flippy + DPAF. That line is often the second DSLR you buy when your first one gets outdated. It gets conveniences and key upgrades above Rebels (top LCD, AFMA, more buttons, chunkier grip, faster burst, etc.) that enthusiasts crave. I see that platform aimed (generally) at current Rebel owners, but of late with DPAF + tilty-flippy, it lends itself naturally to budding film makers, vloggers, YouTube nation, etc.

The 7D line in my mind is more purpose built for the field -- it is the mini/affordable 1DX-like rig: built for war, high fps and a powerful AF setup. You don't have to shoot action/wildlife with it, of course, but it has that 'lane' covered well for those that do want to cover that.

So the niche is -- if there is a niche -- my 7D camera can shoot at high fps and track varmints / athletes better than that your XXD camera cannot. There are plenty of people who would want that at a healthy $300-400 markup for that.

- A


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## YuengLinger (Jul 8, 2017)

So, apparently, most here are satisfied enough with 7DII IQ to think IQ is a side issue for an upgrade? Of all places in photography where high-ISO sharpness and clarity matter, it's with wildlife in overcast or dawn/dusk light at f/8 and over.

By the time photographers understand and "need" what a 7D series is for, they are ready to start buying more and better lenses. And if somebody has a great long lens and FF, but wants cropped for pixel density (or apparent 1.6x magnification), IQ approaching FF would be a huge attraction.

What I have seen and heard from friends and from shots I've seen all over the Web, and remember from the many reviews when the 7DII came out, the IQ was very little better than the 7D (including noise, sharpness, and DR). Folks had to really strain to see an improvement, often "feeling" it was a bit better. Am I wrong? When did the original 7D come out? About seven years ago? Did we hit the ceiling with Canon IQ on a cropped???


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## ahsanford (Jul 8, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> So, apparently, most here are satisfied enough with 7DII IQ to think IQ is a side issue for an upgrade?



No no, I think most concede that a sensor 7D2 upgrade is in order. Some would argue that simply dropping an (on-chip ADC) 80D sensor into a 7D2 would be a very nice bump in performance. (I think that move would be fool's gold and look good to the DXO DR types, but I think the 7D2 sensor outperforms the 80D at the ISO values that matter for sports/wildlife -- please correct me if I am mistaken.)

So the issue in my mind is not whether there is room for 7D2 IQ improvements -- I think we all believe there is. The issue is whether the Canon will or will not lose business if it doesn't deliver those improvements until 2019. Conservative stick-to-the-plan Canon would not shuffle the pipeline order without good reason, so the $64,000 unknown remains how well the D500 is selling and who they are selling it to (in-the-fold Nikonians vs. Canon conversions).

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 8, 2017)

Side topic: if scenario #2 in my list above turns out to be the case, how much of that pressure could simply be mitigated by Canon releasing that relatively inexpensive 'longer than 400mm' zoom instead of putting out a 7D3?

I think it's a decent wager that the 7D3 + longer zoom would be released together, don't get me wrong, but for the sake of argument, if a $2000-ish EF 200-500 f/5.6L IS* should surface later this year, would there still be a screaming need for a 7D3 in 2018? 

- A

*P.S. Please no 'that lens will cost $3k+', 'it'll be to 600mm', etc. discussion for now if you don't mind. I'm just trying to tease out where more of the threat to Canon is -- that shockingly inexpensive 200-500 VR or the D500 itself. Thanks.


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## AdamBotond (Jul 8, 2017)

If it was released yesterday, it would have been too late IMO. While I doubt that many have jumped ship to Nikon for the more appealing D500, I do think that Canon has lost some business here. Potential 7D III buyers can get second-hand 1D X or even 1D mark IV cameras at low prices these days and Canon won't gain a thing on those second-hand (re)sales. Flagship users may endure that longer-than-usual product cycles, as there is nowhere to step up to in the Canon line-up for them, but almost all other users have many alternatives in the line-up. By so long cycles, Canon is loosing income even if most users will stay true to the brand.


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## jolyonralph (Jul 8, 2017)

Now, here's a question.

What if Canon were to do two versions of the 7D Mark III, one with a 24 megapixel sensor using their current 3.7µm CMOS tech, and a 7D Mark IIIS for high sensitivity with a 12mpx sensor using the same 5.7µm pixel CMOS as on the 5D Mark IV sensor.

Assuming all else is equal, what would you prefer?


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## privatebydesign (Jul 8, 2017)

AdamBotond said:


> If it was released yesterday, it would have been too late IMO. While I doubt that many have jumped ship to Nikon for the more appealing D500, I do think that Canon has lost some business here. Potential 7D III buyers can get second-hand 1D X or even 1D mark IV cameras at low prices these days and Canon won't gain a thing on those second-hand (re)sales. Flagship users may endure that longer-than-usual product cycles, as there is nowhere to step up to in the Canon line-up for them, but almost all other users have many alternatives in the line-up. By so long cycles, Canon is loosing income even if most users will stay true to the brand.



I'd disagree with that. I live in a very popular birding area and there is no doubt the D500 200-500mm combo is hurting the 7D MkII 100-400 MkII combo, further, the people who do this as a hobby, as I see them, are not interested in secondhand anything, they want the latest and greatest and a secondhand 18mp 1DX or even older and less capable 1D MkIV are not options. 

At this point the saving grace for Canon in this area is the 400 DO MkII and it's performance with TC's, I am amazed at the number of them I see every time I go out.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jul 8, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> What if Canon were to do two versions of the 7D Mark III, one with a 24 megapixel sensor using their current 3.7µm CMOS tech, and a 7D Mark IIIS for high sensitivity with a 12mpx sensor using the same 5.7µm pixel CMOS as on the 5D Mark IV sensor.
> Assuming all else is equal, what would you prefer?


I could choose a "low light monster APS-C", but I know there are quite a few people with similar taste to mine.

Just watch the Sony A7S, which although it is a low light monster, is not a sales champion in its category. And look, this thing recording 4K in a small package.


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## Jopa (Jul 8, 2017)

A few new Canon cameras every year! Hope not every 6 months like Sony 
Jokes aside - great news. Hope a 5dsr2 will follow.


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## ahsanford (Jul 8, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> Now, here's a question.
> 
> What if Canon were to do two versions of the 7D Mark III, one with a 24 megapixel sensor using their current 3.7µm CMOS tech, and a 7D Mark IIIS for high sensitivity with a 12mpx sensor using the same 5.7µm pixel CMOS as on the 5D Mark IV sensor.
> 
> Assuming all else is equal, what would you prefer?



The market answer: How does the A7S II sell vs. the A7R II amongst stills-only shooters? 

My personal answer: People make great statements here about keeping resolution low for a host of IQ reasons, but it's been my observation that few folks deliberately give up resolution once they've gotten used to it. So if you told the people on this forum the 7D3 (whatever you want to call it) has only 12 MP to maximize IQ, everyone would hang on to their 7D2s or give the D500 a much deeper look. I'd guess many would expect that cameras shouldn't deliver less detail as time marches forward.

However, In your two-tiered position above, virtually everyone would take the resolution unless there was a dramatic 'something else' at play -- 3x the buffer if you kept the pixel count down, integrated astro features, higher yet fps levels, etc.

- A


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## x-vision (Jul 8, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> My personal answer: People make great statements here about keeping resolution low for a host of IQ reasons, but it's been my observation that few folks deliberately give up resolution once they've gotten used to it.



Yup, that's me. The 7DIII will need to have a 24MP sensor for me to consider it (I now have the 80D).

But if Canon puts a 24mp sensor in the 7DIII, it would be very hard to achieve a much better ISO than the 80D.
If they somehow manage more than 1/3 EV stops of improvement, it would be quite an achievement.


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## applecider (Jul 9, 2017)

There was an interview with a canon executive about two tears ago who indicated that their goal was to lower the time between refreshing the pro bodies as technology matured. At least that is my reading of it, lacking other insight to canons mind his replies should be our guide.

Dave echelons spoke with Masada Maeda from canon when asked about the future and upper end refreshes he says:
"MM: Well, I don’t have all of the detailed data, and so let me just give you my personal view on this question. For those users who have the interchangeable-lens DSLRs, the purchasing cycle, to start with, was not very short, so they would use the same camera for several years. So this would also cover your next question as well. <laughter> In terms of the camera model change cycle, I think that would differ based on the characteristics of each camera. *So in terms of our high-end cameras, we will do our model change when we are able to embed the functionality and performance that we are aiming for.* For entry level models, of course we will do the model change when we come out with new features or new performance. But at the same time, for the entry level models there is a lot of competition, and so we also have to work on cost reductions. Once we are able to do these cost reductions, that would be another opportunity for model change."

Interview
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2015/09/16/canon-maeda-promises-eos-m-enthusiasts-more-aps-c-lenses-new-printers

In another part of that interview he states that AF moduals are determined largely by size, perhaps explaining the SL2 keeping the nine point, at least that was his thinking in 2015. He did not directly address specific models just explains the down stream migration of AF features.


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## unfocused (Jul 9, 2017)

applecider said:


> There was an interview with a canon executive about two tears ago who indicated that their goal was to lower the time between refreshing the pro bodies as technology matured. ...
> 
> ... *So in terms of our high-end cameras, we will do our model change when we are able to embed the functionality and performance that we are aiming for.*...



I'm not reading that in the same way you are. It sounds to me that he is saying that pro-level bodies will only get refreshed when new technology has been sufficiently tested and perfected to be reliably incorporated into pro-level bodies. In other words, pro-level camera bodies are refreshed when they have technology they want to incorporate into the bodies, rather than being determined by marketing goals and the need to offer consumers something "new" on a regular basis.

That could mean longer or shorter refresh cycles, depending on their development of technology.


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## Otara (Jul 9, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> Side topic: if scenario #2 in my list above turns out to be the case, how much of that pressure could simply be mitigated by Canon releasing that relatively inexpensive 'longer than 400mm' zoom instead of putting out a 7D3?
> 
> I think it's a decent wager that the 7D3 + longer zoom would be released together, don't get me wrong, but for the sake of argument, if a $2000-ish EF 200-500 f/5.6L IS* should surface later this year, would there still be a screaming need for a 7D3 in 2018?
> 
> ...



In my neck of the woods Id say the general presence of 150-600mm's has been the real change, rather than the Nikon. So most wanting a low cost zoom have already done that, making the D500/7D3 more interesting.


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## ahsanford (Jul 9, 2017)

unfocused said:


> I'm not reading that in the same way you are. It sounds to me that he is saying that pro-level bodies will only get refreshed when new technology has been sufficiently tested and perfected to be reliably incorporated into pro-level bodies. In other words, pro-level camera bodies are refreshed when they have technology they want to incorporate into the bodies, rather than being determined by marketing goals and the need to offer consumers something "new" on a regular basis.
> 
> That could mean longer or shorter refresh cycles, depending on their development of technology.



The FF bodies don't come out when Chris Knight _gets around_ to delivering 5 Megawatts.

It's_ "5 Megawatts by mid-May, Chris."_

Canon has a rough ball-park schedule for when each rig is supposed to land. This lets them avoid having two bodies fight over market attention at the same time and avoid having a huge hole in their release calendar, etc.

I'm not saying it's all locked in and executed -- getting performance levels to improve / costs to be manageable / quality to be of the appropriate level, etc. takes a great deal of work. And altogether new product lines need a ton of market research and form factor / ergonomics work to dial-in. But the notion that Canon will sit back until they can put a dagger through the ribs of their competitors is not how they operate. With Canon, it's very much a small, incremental continuous improvement game coupled with a fight on all fronts / 'yeah, we have one of those*' sort of skin-in-the-game global presences. 

- A

*P.S. Except in FF mirrorless.


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## unfocused (Jul 9, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not reading that in the same way you are. It sounds to me that he is saying that pro-level bodies will only get refreshed when new technology has been sufficiently tested and perfected to be reliably incorporated into pro-level bodies. In other words, pro-level camera bodies are refreshed when they have technology they want to incorporate into the bodies, rather than being determined by marketing goals and the need to offer consumers something "new" on a regular basis.
> ...



This isn't about what you or I _*think*_ Canon's strategy for technological development is. This is about what Canon *said* their strategy is. Whether the statement is accurate or merely public relations speech is irrelevant. I'm simply pointing out that "Applecider's" interpretation of the quote is different than what I believe the plain language states.

To further clarify, I read the statement as saying that consumer DSLR (whatever that may mean) releases are driven largely by marketing strategies. Rebel models are released on a regular basis because the market demands that Canon have something "new" to offer consumers. 

I believe the interviewee is saying that the schedule for pro-level cameras is based on their product development cycle. I never said that their development teams get to set their own schedules and that isn't what the quote would indicate. Rather, (my interpretation) is that they identify new or improved technology that they want to include in the next version of the 1DX and then set about making that happen. Nothing in that statement or my interpretation of it means that the R&D team doesn't have deadlines to meet. It simply means that they aren't releasing a 1DX every year just to have something new in the market. 

One could even go so far as to rather unkindly interpret this as a slap at Sony, which does seem to release high-end models without much significant difference from generation to generation.


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## RickWagoner (Jul 9, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > dual cards slots will be included. Touch screen but i have not seen a flippy screen just the same screen on the 5d4. Same body and same battery grip as 7d2. units have been tested with 24mp sensor but if canon waits long enough there is talk the production 7d3 will get 26mp or more.
> ...



i am not sure what i can provide to back up what i say besides look into my old posts? I have seen the 7d3 in action last year when a few of us where testing some rubber seals on it, though our test versions are not complete production run machines they are usually close to what becomes the production version. Again look into my old posts. Back then the 7d3 was slated to be released this year but Canon Corporate released the sd/wifi card to stall the release after the time people had the units to test. Companies pull back releases for a number of reasons even at the last second sometimes (Nikon had a Production ready D400 but cancelled it right before the announcement then reworked it into the D500 with the D5's focusing system). 

I know sales numbers of some of their gear and i know corporate numbers of some of the Nikon stuff also, both Canon and Nikon people usually are friends and share such talk esp with third party or sub contractor builders or testers. 

The thing that interests me is what is Canon going to do with the sensor of the 7d3. Back last year the testing units had the 80D sensor but now that Canon is using it down the line up makes me question if they have a smoother and refined version at 24mp going in or are they going to up the mp count in it?


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## ahsanford (Jul 9, 2017)

RickWagoner said:


> i am not sure what i can provide to back up what i say besides look into my old posts? I have seen the 7d3 in action last year when a few of us where testing some rubber seals on it, though our test versions are not complete production run machines they are usually close to what becomes the production version.



Excuse me -- you are a tester/supplier/partner with Canon on the 7D3 _and you are free to talk about the product openly, sans NDA?_

No disrespect, but you could imagine some skepticism on our part for such a claim.

- A


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## zim (Jul 9, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > i am not sure what i can provide to back up what i say besides look into my old posts? I have seen the 7d3 in action last year when a few of us where testing some rubber seals on it, though our test versions are not complete production run machines they are usually close to what becomes the production version.
> ...



Fixed that for Rick ;D


Is that really how rubber seals are tested on basically consumer products in 201# ?


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## Jopa (Jul 9, 2017)

zim said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > RickWagoner said:
> ...



Grammar nazi correction.


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## Don Haines (Jul 9, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > i am not sure what i can provide to back up what i say besides look into my old posts? I have seen the 7d3 in action last year when a few of us where testing some rubber seals on it, though our test versions are not complete production run machines they are usually close to what becomes the production version.
> ...



Could be......

We used to test antennas in an anechoic chamber, but decided to let some random stranger half way around the world test them by walking around with them instead.....

We test radios for overheating by leaving them is a car with the windows rolled up on a sunny day as we found it worked better than putting them in one of the environmental chambers and using heat probes and thermal cameras to see what is going on.....

Yes, there is some skepticism......


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## David_B (Jul 9, 2017)

Count me in if Canon expands the number of AF points that work at F/8 with all lenses. Like if the entire center cluster would do F/8. This really helps with TCs for extra reach. The 1.4x plus Sigma 100-400 gets me out to almost 900mm at F/9. It's be awesome if that would work with a third party TC and F/8 AF! Come on Canon, make me upgrade from the 80D!


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 9, 2017)

RickWagoner said:


> i am not sure what i can provide to back up what i say besides look into my old posts?



Yep, some good back up there. 



RickWagoner said:


> Nikon has a D810 successor coming this year...and Canon knows it.





RickWagoner said:


> CR you're wrong about the date..
> 
> The 200-600mm will be announced along with the 7Dmark3 in 2017. it will be STM, look like a longer version of the 55-250 stm. All plastic with a metal mount but weight will be close to the Tamron. it is the same one in the Patent the was filed years back. Hoya is providing the elements least the front element, they already have the contract. The tripod collar is an extra but will ship with lens hood. it will lock for lens creep at 200mm and 400mm. focus down to 6 feet. won't be at the sharpest at wide open. $1,600 or close to.
> 
> 7d3 is coming around February of 2017 last i heard this week. they're doing final testing on the heat displacement and battery drain for 4k use, just getting the algorithms down in the firmware. 8)


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 9, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> I'd disagree with that. I live in a very popular birding area and there is no doubt the D500 200-500mm combo is hurting the 7D MkII 100-400 MkII combo, further, the people who do this as a hobby, as I see them, are not interested in secondhand anything, they want the latest and greatest and a secondhand 18mp 1DX or even older and less capable 1D MkIV are not options.
> 
> At this point the saving grace for Canon in this area is the 400 DO MkII and it's performance with TC's, I am amazed at the number of them I see every time I go out.



But are those Nikon people who suddenly have a Nikon that does the job they want, or are they people who switched from Canon to Nikon? Or people who wanted to progress from iphone/compact and deliberately chose Nikon to Canon? The first of those does not hurt Canon one jot.
My one anecdote is that I recently went to one of the best mainland sites in UK to photograph gannets and the 7D2/100-400ii was by far the most common pairing I saw over 2 days.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 9, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > I'd disagree with that. I live in a very popular birding area and there is no doubt the D500 200-500mm combo is hurting the 7D MkII 100-400 MkII combo, further, the people who do this as a hobby, as I see them, are not interested in secondhand anything, they want the latest and greatest and a secondhand 18mp 1DX or even older and less capable 1D MkIV are not options.
> ...



I don't know, and truthfully I don't care, but I used to see only white, the Canon 400mm f5.6, now I see a lot of Nikon with the 200-500 and Tamron/Sigma 150-600's. There is no doubt in my mind Canon desperately need to come up with something long and not over $3,000 if they want to keep dominating sales in this market.

I do have another interesting observation, I have just got back from a few weeks in the Hawaiian islands and saw a very broad array of gear on display, mostly other tourists from across the globe. I'd say the Rebel was without doubt the most popular DSLR out there though of course they are dwarfed by people just using their phones for pictures. I only saw one photo tour with about 10 participants, it was a USA group and they all had the RRS tripods and ballheads, so they were CR type enthusiast level people, every one of them was using mirrorless except the instructor/leader.

What does this mean? Nothing, my sample groups are too small to be of any value, I live in a small town and just got 2 1DX MkII's, after playing with one of mine another local pro got one, I got mine after borrowing a friends who also lives here and is a keen enthusiast. So in a town of 20,000 people I know of four 1DX MkII's which is probably an anomaly too.


----------



## LonelyBoy (Jul 9, 2017)

AdamBotond said:


> If it was released yesterday, it would have been too late IMO. While I doubt that many have jumped ship to Nikon for the more appealing D500, I do think that Canon has lost some business here. Potential 7D III buyers can get second-hand 1D X or even 1D mark IV cameras at low prices these days and Canon won't gain a thing on those second-hand (re)sales. Flagship users may endure that longer-than-usual product cycles, as there is nowhere to step up to in the Canon line-up for them, but almost all other users have many alternatives in the line-up. By so long cycles, Canon is loosing income even if most users will stay true to the brand.



Is Canon's main goal to sell lots of new bodies to those people? Or is Canon's main goal to keep people using Canon bodies so they buy Canon glass to go with their second-hand 1D bodies? And remember, strong second-hand prices are a good selling point for new equipment as well.


----------



## LonelyBoy (Jul 9, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > Now, here's a question.
> ...



When I shot my Nikon D40 way (_way_) back in the day I thought 6mpx was fine and the 10mpx D40X was silly and frivolous. Now I routinely wish for more resolution on my 5D3 and hope to upgrade it to a 5D4 before the wifey's race in Kona.


----------



## RickWagoner (Jul 9, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > i am not sure what i can provide to back up what i say besides look into my old posts? I have seen the 7d3 in action last year when a few of us where testing some rubber seals on it, though our test versions are not complete production run machines they are usually close to what becomes the production version.
> ...



my NDA is gone as i am personally long gone but i still know people in. I won't talk what exact i know today to save their butts...this info is long ago old.


----------



## RickWagoner (Jul 9, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > i am not sure what i can provide to back up what i say besides look into my old posts?
> ...




I am wondering if Canon is waiting on 7d3 for the long zoom lens?


----------



## jolyonralph (Jul 9, 2017)

How are they going to do an affordable xxx-600mm lens when they won't do anything slower than f/5.6?


----------



## Orangutan (Jul 9, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> How are they going to do an affordable xxx-600mm lens when they won't do anything slower than f/5.6?


He's never been right so far, I wouldn't take anything he says very seriously.


----------



## goldenhusky (Jul 9, 2017)

RickWagoner said:


> I am wondering if Canon is waiting on 7d3 for the long zoom lens?



RickWagoner u seems to be interesting. Until now I was saying this rumor was 100% BS but now I am thinking may be true.


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 9, 2017)

Orangutan said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > How are they going to do an affordable xxx-600mm lens when they won't do anything slower than f/5.6?
> ...



If Canon is going to come out with a long lens to compete with the raft of 150-600's and the Nikon 200-500, odds are, that it will be a zoom lens, and probably a 200-500 F5.6..... if it is an affordable prime, then it is probably an update of the 400F5.6 that will play well with teleconverters and give you a 560F8.....

And unlike Jolyonralph, I am not always wrong..... I once made a prediction that came true..... (all the others have been wrong)


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 10, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> How are they going to do an affordable xxx-600mm lens when they won't do anything slower than f/5.6?



Short answer: Expensively.

But that doesn't mean they won't try. Right now, if you want to shoot longer than 400mm on a Canon FF camera with first-party AF routines, you have the choice of using a teleconverter or spending north of $9k. There needs to be a third option.

Nikon found a way. I'm not calling it a perfect instrument, but a $1400 200-500 f/5.6 VR is a comically good deal. Canon needs something to compete along those lines (though not necessarily spec'd / priced the same). Perhaps they only go to 500mm as I still don't see Tamron/Sigma as threats so much as cheaper 3rd party options. It's the Nikon lens that could actually flip users to their mount that I see as the much bigger threat, and that's what Canon needs to speak to.

- A


----------



## Talys (Jul 10, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > How are they going to do an affordable xxx-600mm lens when they won't do anything slower than f/5.6?
> ...



I totally agree that the lens could actually flip users to their mount -- IMO much more so than the D500 (at least, for stills). If it weren't for the Sigma, I would probably have been tempted to buy a Nikon body + 200-500 at some point.

I'd be perfectly happy with a 200-500/5.6 from Canon. I'm not unhappy with my Sigma 150-600, but I would give up some of the FR and the top end zoom for a fixed 5.6. I really dislike 6.3, especially for AF. If Canon could produce a 200-500 f/5 that wasn't too much heavier, that would be even better, because I am greedy.


----------



## M_S (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



rrcphoto said:


> 7D Mark II in the first part of next year sets up the 120MP 5DsR Mark II for photokina



Lets say it this way: 120MP 5dsr II would pose a huge problem and, at least with my skills, would pose a serious problem. Usable aperture is already limited to 7.1-11 because of diffraction and shutter speeds are doubled on the 5dsr to get a sharp picture. Going higher with the MPs would certainly worsen that.
I would leave it at 50 mps and better all the rest, then the 5dsr2 will be an excellent camera. And they should kick Adobe for not making a medium contrast curve a standard for that camera! Almost made me not buy that camera.


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



M_S said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > 7D Mark II in the first part of next year sets up the 120MP 5DsR Mark II for photokina
> ...



If the increase megapixels changes the diffraction limit, then of greater concern is camerashake.
IIRC, digital matched slide film for resolution at 6MP and it was in the days of film that they came up with the 1/focal length 'rule' for hand held shutter speed. So are you saying that with the 5DSR you have to use 1/3xFL ?


----------



## Khalai (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Mikehit said:


> M_S said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



IHMO that 120 MPix is simply overkill. I've always considered FF sweet spot in 24-32 MPix region. After all with 34 MPix, you can print up to 16x24" in 300 dpi (4800 x7200 px). It's still not too many megapickles to be worried about diffraction (to a certain degree), you don't usually have to resort to higher SS to prevent motion blur and the file size is nothing scary about storage and editing.

Who want to store 120 MPix files anyway? Five CR2 files, which take up 1 GB of space? DLA around f/4? I think that impracticality of such sensor outweights about any potential advantage the increased resolution might bring.


----------



## M_S (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Mikehit said:


> M_S said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



When not using IS, 1/focal length rule doesn't apply to 5dsr, at least not to my findings. I normally use 1/(2*focal length) for shutter speeds just to be on the safe side and eliminate visible effects of shaking caused by hand holding the camera. Sometimes even 1/(3*focal length). That means of course to adjust the ISO to higher values, which is limited on this camera. More MP would certainly effect that even further. Unless they come up with some usable IS in the camera or other HighTec features, I would not use that camera for normal stuff then. Not to speak of usable DLA, which I find more limiting in the end.


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



M_S said:


> When not using IS, 1/focal length rule doesn't apply to 5dsr, at least not to my findings. I normally use 1/(2*focal length) for shutter speeds just to be on the safe side and eliminate visible effects of shaking caused by hand holding the camera. Sometimes even 1/(3*focal length). That means of course to adjust the ISO to higher values, which is limited on this camera. More MP would certainly effect that even further. Unless they come up with some usable IS in the camera or other HighTec features, I would not use that camera for normal stuff then. Not to speak of usable DLA, which I find more limiting in the end.



Thankyou. 
You said earlier that 



> Usable aperture is already limited to 7.1-11 because of diffraction



Can you show me an example where a higher MP sensor has given lower resolution at f11/f16 than a lower MP sensor. In my experience, despite all the theoretical talk about diffraction, the detail from more MP overrides the diffraction. 
As I see it, 'Diffraction Limiting' means that diffraction reduces the benefits of narrower aperture, it does not mean a narrower aperture makes the image worse.


----------



## Khalai (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Mikehit said:


> M_S said:
> 
> 
> > When not using IS, 1/focal length rule doesn't apply to 5dsr, at least not to my findings. I normally use 1/(2*focal length) for shutter speeds just to be on the safe side and eliminate visible effects of shaking caused by hand holding the camera. Sometimes even 1/(3*focal length). That means of course to adjust the ISO to higher values, which is limited on this camera. More MP would certainly effect that even further. Unless they come up with some usable IS in the camera or other HighTec features, I would not use that camera for normal stuff then. Not to speak of usable DLA, which I find more limiting in the end.
> ...



I've seen images at f/22, which appeared quite soft in comparison with f/11. So DLA is not theoretical, you can search for that all over the web. Medium apertures such as f/8-f/11 should not pose a problem as of now, but try f/16 (barely, but still acceptable) or even f/22-f/32. The latter will yield significantly softer and less sharp images.

If we increase MPix count to e.g. 100Mpix on FF, even apertures like f/16 can be barely usable. How about landscape or macro then?


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Khalai said:


> I've seen images at f/22, which appeared quite soft in comparison with f/11.



That's not what I am talking about and no-one i know doubts that diffraction occurs. I was referring to a low MP camera at f11/f16 vs a high MP camera at f11/f16.

M-S said he did not want a 150MP camera because even the 50DS has diffraction limit of f7.1 to f11. I was asking how a 150MP camera results in worse photographs at f11/f16.

I have not yet heard a landscape photographer say they would rather use the original 5D than the 5DIV, 5DS or 6D because their higher MP make diffraction worse. Or how about the Nikon D810 vs previous Nikon models.


----------



## AvTvM (Jul 10, 2017)

7D III ... marginal improvement ... next iteration ... mirrorslapper ... yawn


----------



## Khalai (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Mikehit said:


> Khalai said:
> 
> 
> > I've seen images at f/22, which appeared quite soft in comparison with f/11.
> ...



Truth be told, I would be worried about 150 MPix FF sensor at f/11. With 150 MPix on FF, you'll getting DLA after f/4 and f/5.6 is already being affected (not by much of course). So f/11 or even worse, f/16 could lead to significant softness of the image. And I'm talking about rather medium sized print of 24" (60 cm) on the long edge.


----------



## M_S (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Mikehit said:


> Khalai said:
> 
> 
> > I've seen images at f/22, which appeared quite soft in comparison with f/11.
> ...



Depends on what you compare it to. If you compare a smaller MP pic to a larger MP pic at 100% view, then you will see it, drastically. If you want to crop, you will see it, as well dractically as before. If you don't crop and compare it to print, its a matter of how big you want to print. Flaws get magnified. If you just make small prints you wont see the difference. A 120MP file would not improve on that, nor would a 50MP one; current 20MP files are fine as they are. If you want to print bigger prints and retain the detail or get more detail out of it (small print for lesser MPs and larger prints for higher MPs), diffraction has to be taken into account and is in fact more visible.
But...this is a 7D Mark III thread...


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



M_S said:


> Flaws get magnified.
> If you just make small prints you wont see the difference. A 120MP file would not improve on that, nor would a 50MP one; current 20MP files are fine as they are.



That is sort of my question. An 8MP image blown up to 20" will be limited by out and out resolution
A 50MP, or 150MP camera will have vastly more resolution but will have an element of diffraction, but the greater resolution will always be obvious (and no-one has ever proven otherwise to me). In which case there is no downside to more pixels. 



> But...this is a 7D Mark III thread...


Yep, but when people start wanting the 7Diii to be 30+ MP (equivalent to 70+ on FF) these questions about diffraction are always going to occur and I recall them being raised when the 5DSR came out. And it is (to me) a classic case of theory vs practical application.


----------



## Khalai (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Mikehit said:


> M_S said:
> 
> 
> > Flaws get magnified.
> ...



Well, in 7D III, you care less about DLA, because it's meant more as a sports/wildlife camera, where you usually want as fast aperture as possible (thus limiting DLA). But in 5DSr camera, you would want reasonable compromise for studio works or landscape, as apertures around f/8 to f/11 are frequently used.



M_S said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Khalai said:
> ...



If you print small or do not heavily crop, then why would you need high resolution in the first place, right?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Khalai said:


> Well, in 7D III, you care less about DLA, because it's meant more as a sports/wildlife camera, where you usually want as fast aperture as possible (thus limiting DLA).



I care about getting my whole subject in focus, which often means stopping down to f/8 or narrower.


----------



## M_S (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Khalai said:


> If you print small or do not heavily crop, then why would you need high resolution in the first place, right?


Exactly. I just tried to elaborate on the point. I get it, that one has some whiggle room when downsizing the pic in respect to noise and DLA, but that was not the main purpose I had in mind when getting me the high MP camera. And if you go for large prints, it is like it is, with all the ups and downs. On that sensor size, and from what I have seen so far, I would spend more time on other stuff than raising the bar yet another time. At least, thats my opinion for now.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Jul 10, 2017)

Sometimes you have to give credit to the competition and see Canon change to the 7D MKII as being incremental whilst the Nikon D500 came completely out of the blue and made it in many ways look out of date. 

Canon refresh cycles are not merely of its own doing to remain competitive cycles need adjustment and I think some of that is also about aligning their technology across platforms to simplify production hence why the refresh may come sooner. If true then whats to complain about it will certainly be a leading product.


----------



## fingerstein (Jul 10, 2017)

I wonder witch upgrades should I expect from Canon....
And I think I have an idea.
Two MAJOR upgrades: Wi-FI & NFC.
A small boost in megapixels and ISO
Dual slot media - CFast (?) and SDXC (still UHS I)
Maybe, just maybe... Dual Pixel RAW
And... That's all folks!


----------



## scyrene (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Khalai said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > M_S said:
> ...



A lot of people who'd like more resolution want it for the purposes of cropping, not printing huge.

And you've *always* considered the FF sweet spot to be 24-32MP? That's only become the norm fairly recently, and without both lower and higher resolution sensors of the same generation, how can you be so certain? Especially as it's all a sliding scale, and people said the same thing about lower resolution sensors in the past?

As for file sizes, that's one reasonable argument against higher res sensors (for now), although the cost of storage continues to drop as it has for decades.



Khalai said:


> Truth be told, I would be worried about 150 MPix FF sensor at f/11. With 150 MPix on FF, you'll getting DLA after f/4 and f/5.6 is already being affected (not by much of course). So f/11 or even worse, f/16 could lead to significant softness of the image. And I'm talking about rather medium sized print of 24" (60 cm) on the long edge.



Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but for a given output size, increasing resolution won't make diffraction (or camera shake) more visible. Put plainly: a 60cm print from a 10MP sensor and a 100MP sensor will display the same amount of diffraction. The only problem is when viewing at 1:1 magnification, since you are magnifying the higher resolution image more, so diffraction etc will cover more pixels. On the other hand, the higher res print *may* be sharper, as the sensor can resolve finer details.



Khalai said:


> If you print small or do not heavily crop, then why would you need high resolution in the first place, right?



Fair point.


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



scyrene said:


> A lot of people who'd like more resolution want it for the purposes of cropping, not printing huge.



They are the same thing


----------



## scyrene (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Mikehit said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > A lot of people who'd like more resolution want it for the purposes of cropping, not printing huge.
> ...



I don't understand.


----------



## jolyonralph (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Khalai said:


> If you print small or do not heavily crop, then why would you need high resolution in the first place, right?



Downscaling.

Remember that a 24mpx sensor doesn't give you 24 colour megapixels. there are 12 megapixels of green, and 6 megapixels each of red and blue.

These are then interpolated to give you a pseudo-24 megapixel full colour image, bearing in mind every single one of those pixels is the product of assumption, taking the surrounding pixels to assume what the missing colour components would be.

So, even if you don't crop, or you don't print massive posters, the 5DSR gives you the opportunity of massive oversampling which allows you to scale down an image and get a much more accurate representation of both the luminosity and color of each actual pixel in your final image.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



scyrene said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



And there in lies the perennial problem of these forums, people with completely different levels of understanding talking across each other. At least you have the honesty to say you don't understand, which is close to unique so for that I congratulate you.

The basis of the problem is 'acceptable', what is acceptable for you might not be for me, or visa versa. Dof calculations along with acuity and resolution (being the foundation) are based on a set print size and viewing distance, cropping hard and printing big are both pushing the boundaries of that equation so they are, in essence and effect, exactly the same thing.


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



scyrene said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



A 5DSR is 9,000x6000 (for round numbers) and you crop it to 6,000 x4,000. Print that crop to 20x12 and it is the same as printing the original sensor image to 30x18 and cutting out a 20x12 portion of it.


----------



## Talys (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Mikehit said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...



The 5DSR has enough resolution that you can crop out the center of it and give you more pixels from central 62% of the sensor than a APSC 24 megapixel. 

The section called "Full-Frame with a twist: crop modes" is informative:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-5ds-r/canon-5ds-r-field-test-part-i.htm







From what I understand, when you shoot in crop mode, you can get a cropped JPEG of the highlight area (there is a 1.6 setting, about the crop of an APSC, as well as a 1.3), with the camera discarding the darkened area. You can also get a cropped RAW file, but the RAW file actually contains the darkened area's original information too; you can uncrop it. Unfortunately, this means the RAW file is still big 


Unrelated: I think 7D3 will have 4k video. Not that I care, and if that's the main top-line differentiator between it and 80D, great. I would not pay even an extra $200 for that, but surely, some would. Canon "needs" a 4k option in that price strata to make some people happy


----------



## Sporgon (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



jolyonralph said:


> Khalai said:
> 
> 
> > If you print small or do not heavily crop, then why would you need high resolution in the first place, right?
> ...



I just don't see this in practice. I wish I did, it would mean I could justify buying a 5Ds to produce better quality images. Theoretically of course you are right, the bayer array means that you need many more pixels on target to define colours, especially at the edges of things, but I just don't see it in practice. 

The problem is all to do with scale; because of the resolution of even a 12 mp FF camera there is enough RGB coverage to define the detail we can see in say an A3 size print. The increase in colour definition that you are gaining from say a 5Ds is just lost in reducing the detail size down to an A3 print. That detail has just gone. Simple. If it hasn't then it was large enough for the lower mp sensor to define anyway. 

I have found that the greater magnification of a larger format gives better tone and detail, so for instance again if we refer to a fairly common "large" A2 print (23.5 x 16.5 inches) a vertical three frame stitch from an old 12.7 mp 5D at about 24 mp is better printed definition than a single frame from a 24 mp M3. However as you reduce the print size, once again there is no difference. 

Of course cropping is another thing, you are definitely limited in producing large prints from a heavily cropped 12 mp sensor  I should add, when compared with one of todays higher resolution sensors. I've actually seen some very large and good images printed from 5 mp !


----------



## jolyonralph (Jul 10, 2017)

For me my images are almost exclusively used online, not in print, so the crop *is* a big issue for me, and the ability to print wall-sized images is of no consequence.

Crop and print are entirely unrelated if you have no intention of printing your images!



Anyway, for a slightly connected thing see http://www.everyothershot.com/look-saw-alternatively-good-5dsr/


----------



## 9VIII (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



scyrene said:


> As for file sizes, that's one reasonable argument against higher res sensors (for now), although the cost of storage continues to drop as it has for decades.



Actually there's a global shortage of Flash memory right now, and HDD's have been the same price since 2010 because everyone knows it's practically a dead technology, 10TB is probably the biggest mechanical Hard Drive that will ever be on the market (at least without using [Edit: "Shingled"] recording which drastically reduces write performance).

http://www.storagereview.com/what_is_shingled_magnetic_recording_smrhttp://www.storagereview.com/what_is_shingled_magnetic_recording_smr


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



9VIII said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > As for file sizes, that's one reasonable argument against higher res sensors (for now), although the cost of storage continues to drop as it has for decades.
> ...



It's not the storage that is at issue, that is comparatively cheap, processors and RAM that can do all the manipulation we want to those files is the true cost. Also the post processing programs are woefully short on optimization for those massive layered files.


----------



## jolyonralph (Jul 10, 2017)

Maybe I'm just lucky. I use my 2013 vintage Apple Mac Pro with 16GB ram to edit 50mpx 5DSR and 40mpx A7RII files in Lightroom and Photoshop and I don't really find any real issues with performance. Yes, working with the 24mpx files from my M5 is faster, but not so much that I pay any attention to it.


Now, if we start throwing 100+ megapixel files around, that could be different.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



9VIII said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > As for file sizes, that's one reasonable argument against higher res sensors (for now), although the cost of storage continues to drop as it has for decades.
> ...



I'd be really interested if you have links/data on the emboldened bit. My personal (obviously anecdotal) experience is that HD prices per GB have fallen a bit in the past few years; I'm happy to be proven wrong (although a preliminary Google search doesn't bring up results that back your assertion up). As for maximum size, I agree it's not going up much now, but since (I believe) prices have fallen, you just buy more (which is safer with regard to drive failure, right?). Memory card prices seem to have fallen a lot in that time, from what I've seen on Amazon. And each computer that I've bought has been more powerful than the last.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



privatebydesign said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...



Thanks :/



Mikehit said:


> A 5DSR is 9,000x6000 (for round numbers) and you crop it to 6,000 x4,000. Print that crop to 20x12 and it is the same as printing the original sensor image to 30x18 and cutting out a 20x12 portion of it.



I still don't get it (I mean I understand what you're saying here, but I don't see how the two things are the same - they are literally different things, although I accept they may be linked in an abstract way) but I don't think it's important for the purposes of the thread.


----------



## reef58 (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



neuroanatomist said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > SecureGSM said:
> ...



Quite a few I am sure. People buy insurance as a risk management tool. I guess a second card slot os also a risk management tool, but I really think the analogy (2nd card slot / insurance ) misses the mark. Besides risk appetite varies from person to person and company to company, so a 2nd slot is not a deal breaker for some, while it may be for others. Fortunately there are many options.


----------



## magarity (Jul 10, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



SecureGSM said:


> The leading photographers and photo professional associations should take the lead and raise the bar in calling on industry to support compulsory dual redundant card standard in professional settings.


But doesn't it really come down to budget? If your wedding has a budget for a photographer who has a 1D or 5D then that person has the extra card for just in case and that's great but that equipment is bought from their fees. I bet there are plenty of budget wedding photographers who don't even have full frame cameras never mind dual cards and assistants. Not every wedding is an extravaganza but the participants still want pictures of it.


----------



## 9VIII (Jul 11, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



scyrene said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



Remember this is from 2011: http://www.brighthub.com/computing/hardware/articles/126430.aspx


> In mid-October, Newegg still listed a number of 5400RPM 2TB drives for around $70 to $80 dollars.



Currently on Amazon.com the 2TB models cost $66: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01IEKG402/

In the last six years we have seen the introduction of 5TB models that do provide a slightly better price/GB, but that's probably going to be stable from now on (again, not counting new drives using higher densety but slower writing methods. The "read head" on a Hard Drive is more precise than the "write head", so if data is written with layers overlapping they can fit much more, but writing must be done in large blocks no matter how small the change is, these drives are best used for long term storage only).
Edit: The proper term is "Shingled" recording: http://www.storagereview.com/what_is_shingled_magnetic_recording_smr
In terms of consumer HDD's, prices are never going down from where they are today, you'll probably be able to use the price of hard drives to index inflation for the next hundred years.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11084/seagate-confirms-plans-for-12-tb-hdd-in-near-future-16-tb-hdd-due-in-2018


> In the past, the product stack used to remained similar, and as larger drives were introduced every year, previous-gen products were moved down the stack and low-capacity models discontinued. This may not be the case in the future and customers who need maximum capacity (i.e., who would like to store 3840 TB of data per rack and require 16 TB drives) in 2018 will probably have to pay more than they pay for leading edge HDDs today.




Also note that cheaper flash memory doesn't mean you're getting more for less, good MLC flash (two bits per cell, fastest performance and best endurance on the market today) is the same price today as four years ago (probably more "right now" given the shortage), most of the cheap drives are TLC (Three bits per cell, slower writing, only 50% capacity increase for a 2x reduction in write endurance), and they're about to introduce QLC (Four bits per cell), which will have almost no write endurance, and again is basically only going to be good for long term storage.

Here's the price history for the Samsung 850 Pro: https://pcpartpicker.com/product/v3fp99/samsung-internal-hard-drive-mz7ke512bw?history_days=730

"Memory Cards" have come down in price, but that's only because those companies thought they could get away with charging absurd prices when high speed SD cards first came out.


----------



## Talys (Jul 11, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



magarity said:


> SecureGSM said:
> 
> 
> > The leading photographers and photo professional associations should take the lead and raise the bar in calling on industry to support compulsory dual redundant card standard in professional settings.
> ...



There are lots of weddings with beautiful photos taken by a friend who is a hobbyist and doesn't have any super-awesome camera gear 

If you want to take it to the extreme, your wedding photo portfolio would be much more complete if you hired two or three photographers to take photos from different angles.


----------



## Talys (Jul 11, 2017)

9VIII said:


> Actually there's a global shortage of Flash memory right now, and *HDD's have been the same price since 2010 *because everyone knows it's practically a dead technology, 10TB is probably the biggest mechanical Hard Drive that will ever be on the market (at least without using stripped recording which drastically reduces write performance).



Assuming you mean *striped* recording, it's factually untrue that striped volumes reduce write performance. In fact, they dramatically increase write performance, and almost every serious server uses striped data sets to improve performance. The easiest way to make either mechanical or solid state drives faster is to buy a bunch of them and split up the write tasks between them.

There are massively expensive RAID setups that make a 1000mm primes look like rounding errors, and buildings full of them that cost tens or hundreds of millions of dollars to build, and a lot of them use mechanical storage for a lot of storage tasks -- for example, Microsoft's Azure or Amazon's AWS datacenters. Some of us also choose mechanical storage on the cloud for non-performance reasons, like better geo-replication options.

In addition, many people who run on-premise, production servers choose mechanical over solid state drives. They're superior in two ways: first, if they die, they tend to die slowly, so you can typically recover data easily. On the other hand, SSDs die in an epic and sudden way that's either difficult, expensive, or impossible to recover data from. Second, unless you get extremely expensive SSDs, very expensive RAID cards, or both, you can't REST them while they are in a striped set -- which makes all those cheap retail drives just short of useless. 

And finally, there's limited benefits on a lot of types of servers. For example, for email or database, you're going to cache nearly everything you use most of the time anyways, so those blazingly fast random read times will still be there, but practically, they aren't noticeable much to users because usually, the data they want to access is cached in much faster RAM. 

A strategy is often to combine both, and put most of your storage on mechanical storage arrays, but use solid state as a temporary/scratch drive, or for data that you can predict will require extremely random reads that don't cache well.

By the way, mechanical drives have improved dramatically since 2010. You can get excellent 2.5" models now, which are king in the server world. The reason that the price per TB hasn't fallen on mechanical drives has less to do about technology than it does about market forces. There just isn't enough demand for those 12TB systems to bring the prices down. Those giant drives also introduce other problems, like length of time to back up, and how hard you cry if you lose everything.

There have also been massive improvements in SSD technology since 2010, a lot of it highly benefiting retail PCs in the tablet and laptop segments. m.2 SSDs are a big step up in both performance and form factor for drives that don't need to be changed often, the controllers have gotten a lot better, and MLC durability has improved a lot. Basically, mid-range drives today are great, whereas they were slightly lacking a decade ago.

Not that this has much of anything to do with 7D3


----------



## Talys (Jul 11, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> The bold bit above is the entire story here. Do we have data to back that up?
> 
> I am not doubting you -- it seems a formidable camera -- but do we know it is really kicking Canon's tail or if it is simply bringing the long-neglected Nikon 'pro APS-C' birder/wildlifers back into the fold? Is it stealing market share or is it just a case of shifting faithful Nikonians into a new price point?
> 
> ...




While I'd put some money on #1 or #2, I'll forward another theory:

Because of the 80D is a superb APS-C stills camera, there isn't a lot of reason to consider a 7DII today. I don't need to go through the laundry list; we're all familiar with that. On top of that, the two models are priced just $300 apart -- and at $1400 for 7DII, that's not a very large percentage spread.

What's the problem with that? They could just get rid of 7D2, or just combine it into 90D, since 80D and 77D are so close. Well, I think, the issue is market segmentation: I'm pretty sure there are people willing to spend more than $1,100 for the best Canon APS-C camera. Just not for the 7DII, which doesn't offer enough more, and in some cases, offers less.

So rather than leave a gaping hole in the top end APS-C camera line for the next couple of years, they decide to cobble together an upgrade path, such that an APS-C xD model has a reason to exist. And, while they're at it, jack up the price a bit, since the top-end APS-C camera can be pretty close to the entry level FF camera.

Especially if it had 4k video.

If you bolted 4k video and UHS-II onto an 80D, what would it be worth? I'd argue, Canon could easily sell it for a few hundred dollars more (around D500 prices).

Then, you'd have 7D as a sub-$2k camera with 4k capabilities. And 80D/90D as a very capable ~$1k stills camera; and 77D and below as very viable hobbyist APS-C options.


----------



## 9VIII (Jul 11, 2017)

Talys said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > Actually there's a global shortage of Flash memory right now, and *HDD's have been the same price since 2010 *because everyone knows it's practically a dead technology, 10TB is probably the biggest mechanical Hard Drive that will ever be on the market (at least without using stripped recording which drastically reduces write performance).
> ...



I couldn't quite remember the right term when I wrote that, Shingled HDD's are definitely not the same as what you are talking about.

In the world of SSD's, planar (2D) Nand was rapidly degrading in quality as they tried to make it more and more dense.
3D Nand did for SSD's what PMR did for HDD's (flip the data cells to being vertically oriented), but the principle will always hold true that smaller memory cells perform worse, and you can only stack so many layers on a chip. Given the size of the layers of current 3D Nand I'd be surprised if we ever see Micro SD cards significantly larger than they are today (I think 200GB is the biggest on the market now).
And if they do manage to make thinner layers, they will just start performing worse again and we'll be right back to the situation of capacity and quality being directly opposed.

In applications that aren't highly write intensive most people are probably better off with the cheaper TLC drives (Samsung "Evo" chips), but there really isn't any competition for MLC drives right now.
As far as I know Samsung is the only company with MLC 3D Nand on the market, and they're charging a hefty premium to get it in M.2 format.



9VIII said:


> Remember this is from 2011: http://www.brighthub.com/computing/hardware/articles/126430.aspx
> 
> 
> > In mid-October, Newegg still listed a number of 5400RPM 2TB drives for around $70 to $80 dollars.
> ...


----------



## jeffa4444 (Jul 11, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



Sporgon said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > Khalai said:
> ...


I project a lot of still images and the difference between my 6D and the 5DS are very easy to see, better tones, better clarity and more fine detail. 
The one area where it really is a no brainer is cropping. Heavily crop a 6D image and definition & detail suffer but the 5DS if exposed correctly and sharply focused really stands up well and its apparent for all to see easily.


----------



## FramerMCB (Jul 11, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



ahsanford said:


> djack41 said:
> 
> 
> > Listen up, Canon. 1) Please improve ISO performance by at least 1-1.5 stops. 2) Increase DR. 3) Add 1-2 FPS 4) Flip screen.
> ...



The caveats I believe to the possibility of Canon adding an articulating screen (#4) of some kind (to the 7D Mk III) are these: the introduction of 4k and more video features, and the introduction of one in the new 6D Mk II. And I think there's a way to do it and make it fairly robust, as these have been around for a while now. 

Coupled with the fact that some buyers would only use it periodically, some would use hardly ever, and some may use it quite often.


----------



## magarity (Jul 11, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



9VIII said:


> The "read head" on a Hard Drive is more precise than the "write head"


Hard drives have a single head per platter which performs both reading and writing, not one for each function.


> but writing must be done in large blocks no matter how small the change is


The term you're looking for is "sectors" which is the smallest atomic change. A sector may contain multiple blocks or vice versa depending on the formatting. However, sectors are fairly small and most files spread across many of them. When changing a file only the sector(s) being changed need to be rewritten. Most files are not frequently changed in the big scheme of things. Even editing an image or video is a series of single changes but it's not like anyone re-edits the same video over and over until those sectors give out (unless they have some compulsion).


----------



## Sporgon (Jul 11, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



jeffa4444 said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > jolyonralph said:
> ...



I would expect to see that difference when projecting.


----------



## unfocused (Jul 11, 2017)

RickSpringfield said:


> Bets on whether or not it will have AA filter?



It will. No need to bet. It is a sure thing.


----------



## unfocused (Jul 11, 2017)

jayt567 said:


> ...Still shooting with my original 7D after being disappointed in the image quality of the 7D ii...



I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around this statement. I used the 7D for years. Switched to a 5DIII. Bought a 7DII for sports and then bought a 1DXII, also for sports and general purpose use.

My experience: 7DII is a significant increase in quality over the 7D at 800 ISO or higher (pretty much impossible to tell the diffference between *any* cameras at ISO 400 or below.)

7DII could hold its own against the 5DIII at higher ISOs, up to 6,400. 5DIII was somewhere around a 1/2 to 1 stop better but the quality of the noise in the 7DII has a much more film-like look to it that in my opinion makes it much more acceptable against the original and keeps in in the running against the 5DIII, when factoring in the improved autofocus, fps, etc.

Not surprisingly, the 1DX II beats them all. But if I need the 1.6 reach because of being distance-limited and the light is good, I'll go for the 7DII (birds in good light for example).

I never shot the 7D at anything higher than ISO 400 because I didn't like the noise. With the 7DII I can go up to 6,400 and while the images have noise, it isn't the ugly, electronic noise of the 7D. 

Of course opinions vary, but as I say, I'm surprised that you preferred the 7D to the 7D II.


----------



## tomscott (Jul 11, 2017)

unfocused said:


> jayt567 said:
> 
> 
> > ...Still shooting with my original 7D after being disappointed in the image quality of the 7D ii...
> ...



Completely agree, my 5DMKIII got put to the side unless in serious low light when I got the 7D.

Ive used it alongside my 5DMKIII to shoot weddings, motorsport, wildlife and it is very impressive. 

Couple from a recent wedding.



Lara &amp; Hugo de Chassiron-326 by Tom Scott, on Flickr



Lara &amp; Hugo de Chassiron-335 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Motorsport



N0. 78 1965 2.0 Porsche 911 Classic GT Cars (pre &#x27;66) Silverstone Classics 2016 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Wildlife







6400ISO in the Ugandan rainforest (unfortunately has fb compression so doesn't look its best but the print looks fantastic)

Although you can't get the same look as full frame the speed at which is shoots and operates makes the 5DMKIII feel archaic.

Although yes it may not be as good as the best APC as a package the camera is immense IMO.

Being able to buy them at £900 new from places like SLRhut and Digitalrev its a complete no brainer IMO.


----------



## x-vision (Jul 11, 2017)

Talys said:


> Because of the 80D is a superb APS-C stills camera, there isn't a lot of reason to consider a 7DII today. I don't need to go through the laundry list; we're all familiar with that. On top of that, the two models are priced just $300 apart -- and at $1400 for 7DII, that's not a very large percentage spread.
> 
> What's the problem with that? They could just get rid of 7D2, or just combine it into 90D, since 80D and 77D are so close.



Nah, Nikon did that ... and then reversed course. 

For quite a while, Nikon didn't have an update for the D300(S), while at the same time they over-spec'd the D7200.
But now they have the D500 and the D7500 (which in certain ways is a downgrade from the D7200).

This is telling me that Canon was right all along with the xxD/7D separation. 

I suspect that the 7D series helps Canon sell 'big white' lenses. 
Hence, they seem to take the 7D series quite seriously.


----------



## 9VIII (Jul 11, 2017)

*Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]*



magarity said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > The "read head" on a Hard Drive is more precise than the "write head"
> ...



http://www.storagereview.com/what_is_shingled_magnetic_recording_smr



> Of course many operating and file systems aren’t used to being restricted to writing sequentially to hard disk drives. As a result, a management or translation layer needs to be created to take random writes and convert them to sequential writes.
> 
> Where this layer resides and how it manages metadata is a new issue that will be discussed in detail by examining methodologies of SMR data management. These include three core methods; Drive Managed, Host Aware and Host Managed.


----------



## Steve Balcombe (Jul 12, 2017)

Talys said:


> Because of the 80D is a superb APS-C stills camera, there isn't a lot of reason to consider a 7DII today. I don't need to go through the laundry list; we're all familiar with that. On top of that, the two models are priced just $300 apart -- and at $1400 for 7DII, that's not a very large percentage spread.



That's nonsense. Do you own and use them, or are you just an armchair critic who reads feature lists? I've had the 7D2 from launch day, and the 80D for over a year, and use them frequently. The 7D2 is significantly ahead in areas which are really important for sports and wildlife photography, despite being so much older.

Regarding the prices, today's best UK street price for a 7D2 is almost £400 higher than the 80D, or 42%. For real people spending real money and not just talking about it, that's a very significant difference.

The 80D does beat the 7D2 on certain specifics. The sensor is newer and better, and it has the swivel screen and wifi as well as slightly higher resolution. None of those will make the 80D an attractive substitute for the 7D2 to anyone who actually uses the 7D2 as intended. Despite its age, the 7D2 is still some way ahead in performance and handling, and that's why I still choose it for most tasks.

There will, of course, be many people for whom the 80D is 'just as good' as the 7D2 - basically, all those who don't need the performance features. So it's not a question of being just as good (which it isn't), it's about being a better fit to the needs of those people, and at a lower cost too.



Talys said:


> What's the problem with that? They could just get rid of 7D2, or just combine it into 90D, since 80D and 77D are so close. Well, I think, the issue is market segmentation: I'm pretty sure there are people willing to spend more than $1,100 for the best Canon APS-C camera. Just not for the 7DII, which doesn't offer enough more, and in some cases, offers less.



You do know that the original 7D was born out of a split when the old 50D was replaced with the lower-level 60D and high-end 7D? I don't think many would want to go back to a situation where there was no truly high-end APS-C body.

BTW I have no idea what the 77D has to do with this. It's an XXXD with a two-digit name - chosen, no doubt, to confuse the less well-informed.


----------



## Talys (Jul 12, 2017)

Steve Balcombe said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > Because of the 80D is a superb APS-C stills camera, there isn't a lot of reason to consider a 7DII today. I don't need to go through the laundry list; we're all familiar with that. On top of that, the two models are priced just $300 apart -- and at $1400 for 7DII, that's not a very large percentage spread.
> ...



I own an 80D and use it as my primary device for studio photography, mostly of inanimate objects in a professional setting (ie someone is paying for it). 80D is the perfect device for that task. I have borrowed 7D2 for a whole day shoot, and all I can say is that a tilting screen is an absolute must, if you sometimes need to take shots from a downwards angle, or straight down. One day reminded me how much I hated ladders. Frankly, I'd go back to a t5i if it came down to it. Also, liveview to PC over WiFi Jpeg on PC with RAW on SD is pretty important and I couldn't get that to work on 7D2. I ended up tethering, and I so hate that. 

So to be perfectly clear, a great studio camera with an articulating screen is professionally important to me. It's be reason I've never considered Canon's FF options. I would love being able to capture more in constrained spaces (or constrained positioning for a diorama, or vertical down shots), as 6D2 will permit. 

The only outdoor shots I typically take that would matter are birds, and I as I'm a fairweather birder, so high ISO isn't important to me. 400 is the highest I'd shoot at, because I wouldn't go out out on cloudy/rainy/dark days to shoot birds. I have not given a 7D2 a fair shot in that scenario. 

Now, certainly, I don't represent a lot of photographers, but obviously 80D massively outsells 7D2, so there must be some (different) things a lot of people like about 80D. 



Steve Balcombe said:


> Regarding the prices, today's best UK street price for a 7D2 is almost £400 higher than the 80D, or 42%. For real people spending real money and not just talking about it, that's a very significant difference.



What can I say? They're $1100 and $1500 USD on Amazon US. In Canada, the price on both if you Go Grey (sellers who split kits and/or break Canon pricing rules), they are both a lot cheaper than that, around 30% so. But nowhere near GBP400. Plus tons of places have big 7D2 discounts, further narrowing the price. 



Steve Balcombe said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > What's the problem with that? They could just get rid of 7D2, or just combine it into 90D, since 80D and 77D are so close. Well, I think, the issue is market segmentation: I'm pretty sure there are people willing to spend more than $1,100 for the best Canon APS-C camera. Just not for the 7DII, which doesn't offer enough more, and in some cases, offers less.
> ...



I've played around with both T6s and 77D. 77D is a lot closer to 80D than T6s, in my opinion. Frankly, I think the only thing I couldn't live with on 77D is the crappy viewfinder. 80D pentaprism is just so much more pleasing to use. 

I should also note that I'm not one of these guys where technical supremacy is my biggest motivator. Really, the menu options, ergonomics, and other factors that get me to a pretty good shot comfortably is WAY more important than the spec sheet. In this respect, 80D is really excellent.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 12, 2017)

Talys,

7D II is a dedicated fast action, Advanced AF Tracking, all weather, longer reach friendly (birding, wildlife,etc) built like a tank beast. You are not really comparing apples to apples here, but that's OK. as long as you are an open minded person as you are.

regarding the 77D body: 

"... By not including AFMA Canon has simply placed this camera as a Rebel without calling it a Rebel..."

https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=31948.msg651094#msg651094






Talys said:


> I've played around with both T6s and 77D. 77D is a lot closer to 80D than T6s, in my opinion. Frankly, I think the only thing I couldn't live with on 77D is the crappy viewfinder. 80D pentaprism is just so much more pleasing to use.
> 
> I should also note that I'm not one of these guys where technical supremacy is my biggest motivator. Really, the menu options, ergonomics, and other factors that get me to a pretty good shot comfortably is WAY more important than the spec sheet. In this respect, 80D is really excellent.


----------



## Talys (Jul 12, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> Talys,
> 
> 7D II is a dedicated fast action, Advanced AF Tracking, all weather, longer reach friendly (birding, wildlife,etc) built like a tank beast. You are not really comparing apples to apples here, but that's OK. as long as you are an open minded person as you are.
> 
> ...



Actually, you're totally right about AFMA. I criticized that at the time, in the context of the two cameras being nearly the same price (when you consider Amazon, anyways), but have since forgotten about it, probably because I manually focus a lot anyways (why not, when your subject is inanimate). The OVF is glaring, though; pick up a 77D and you'll notice it in a split second, and if you've ever used a 5D/6D/80D or predecessor, and if you like OVFs, I can't imagine being happy with a 77D. 

And, yes, indeed. I agree with you -- I'm not comparing apples to apples between xxD and 7D. If you want to say that 7D is an APSC tank, built with the durability of Canon FF bodies, while 80D is not, I'm more than happy to agree with you. 

My original point was not really that 80D was _superior_ to 7D2, but rather that for a lot of people, there's not a clear reason to buy it, even if it only costs a little more (at least this neck of the woods). Taking price out of the equation, if it's a choice of 80D features OR 7D2 features, I suspect a lot of people choose 80D.

So, anyways, my hypothesis was simply that a possibility is that Canon wants to launch 7D3 in 2018, not because of external threats (though of course, that could be), but also because it thinks it can bump up the feature set of 7D, such that the main reason to buy an 80D is price. If 7D had everything 80D had (including articulating screen), could shoot 4k video, dual SD, and some other gosh darnit do-dads, then Canon could get some happy 80D people to step up to a camera in the $1800+ range.

Plus, Canon has no sub $2k option for 4k video, and that would solve that, without compromising 5D4 sales.

By the way, about being open-minded. I post on these forums to relax and kill time. A lot of times, I write something, and just close my browser, because I don't want to take a controversial position. I am totally open to the possibility that I'm wrong about nearly everything I write about photography -- it's just a hobby for me, though I do make a reasonable supplemental income with it


----------



## Steve Balcombe (Jul 12, 2017)

Talys said:


> I own an 80D and use it as my primary device for studio photography, mostly of inanimate objects in a professional setting



I haven't quoted your whole text but I am taking it all into account. Basically what you're saying is that you do almost no outdoor photography and don't shoot anything which moves. Ok - that simply means you are not a 7D2 customer and probably won't be a 7D3 customer either. Based on what you've said, I completely agree that you'd be daft to spend all that extra money on features you just won't use. For people who _are _the target market for the 7D2, the differences, believe me, are huge.

I've already said I have both bodies. As it happens I do a small amount of 'table top studio' work, in fact I'll be doing some today, and for that I will be using the 80D. The 'high end' features of the 7D2 are all irrelevant, and 80D is nice to use with its flippy screen and better sensor at low ISOs. Sound familiar?


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 12, 2017)

I got the 7D2 instead of the 80D for three reasons:

Weather sealing
Weather sealing
Weather sealing

If you are going to be using the camera in all weather, including rain, salt spray, and the Canadian winter when -20C feels like a heat wave, then just this one difference is enough to justify the camera...... but 10FPS and a 1DX like AF system are also great reasons.....

If you don't need those features, you wasted your money, if you do need them, "ya done good there bye".... we all come to the picnic with different requirements and that's why there are so many different models from different manufacturers out there.


----------



## Sporgon (Jul 12, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> I got the 7D2 instead of the 80D for three reasons:
> 
> Weather sealing
> Weather sealing
> ...



What about fur sealing ?


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## EdwardNJ (Jul 13, 2017)

*My expectations for the 7D Mark III*


I had my 7DII since the first day it was released, it is an awesome camera but I think Canon has to get on it if they want to keep it relevant against the Nikon D500 or any cropped body Sony may want to throw in the game especially if it has all the nice stuff they put in the A9. 

Realistic expectations:
12 FPS, more is always good, especially for sports and wildlife, you don't wanna lose the peak of the action and extra frame or two are always good.

More megapixels, if you're shooting wildlife, there is a good chance you're always cropping your pictures, more megapixels less resolution and IQ you lose when cropping.

More AF points, with more cross type diagonal points. If Sony can fit over 600 points in the A9, I'm sure Canon can put a few more than 65, the D500 has 153 all together.

Better ISO performance, the sensor in the top cropped body of Canon should be noticeable better than the one in the 80D or Nikon' s D500. Same goes with dynamic range and overall IQ.

Definitely touch screen, maybe a flip screen, I had it in my t3i back in the day, it worked great and I miss that from that camera. 

Radio flash trigger for the newer Canon flashes.

Wi-fi/NFC and Bluetooth connectivity, the SD card thing is very inconsistent, built in Wi-Fi and Bluetooth should be better.

Better cards compatibility, the faster the card, the faster you clear up that buffer.

Get rid of that 1980's Casio top screen and put something more customizable and useful. Something that would work also to show the status of the remote flashes or just for the Wi-Fi, GPS or Bluetooth,maybe a small LCD touch screen. 

Some sort of 4K, if this is the top of the line in the crop world of Canon, the camera should have 4K, keep the headphones and mic jacks and the dual pixel AF.

More ways to customize functions. 

Less realistic expectations:

Built in image stabilization. 

A better AF micro adjustment system for zoom lenses at different focal lengths, either Canon or third party, maybe with the use of a computer so calibration is less tedious. 

Better Canon app compatibility to be used also for video not only pictures.

A version without anti aliasing filter for better IQ.


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## Mikehit (Jul 13, 2017)

*Re: My expectations for the 7D Mark III*



EdwardNJ said:


> More AF points, with more cross type diagonal points. If Sony can fit over 600 points in the A9, I'm sure Canon can put a few more than 65, the D500 has 153 all together.



Number of AF points is not really important. But does the D500 have a wider coverage? 




EdwardNJ said:


> Better cards compatibility, the faster the card, the faster you clear up that buffer.


No really much wrong with the buffer. I upgraded my cards and got a much better buffer clearance.



EdwardNJ said:


> Some sort of 4K, if this is the top of the line in the crop world of Canon, the camera should have 4K, keep the headphones and mic jacks and the dual pixel AF.



Yawn!



EdwardNJ said:


> More ways to customize functions.



How many more ways do you need??


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## Don Haines (Jul 14, 2017)

unfocused said:


> jayt567 said:
> 
> 
> > ...Still shooting with my original 7D after being disappointed in the image quality of the 7D ii...
> ...


+1

Got the 7D at work and the 7D2 at home. I would not go over ISO 800 on the 7D, but the 7D2 goes up to 6400 easily. It's noise is clean and Lightroom cleans it up well with one simple click on a slider..... The 7D was just ugly in comparison.....


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## Otara (Jul 14, 2017)

I have the 80D and 7D2, and to be honest I find it swings and roundabouts rather than an outright winner.

My n=1 test for weathersealing shows the 80D survived remarkedly well after a full immersion in seawater after a fall for instance. Its currently being assessed, but so far only the flash went, with all other functions and buttons still working fine. And if anything Id say its sealed slightly better there than the 7D2, going to tape it over after just looking at I think.

The biggest advantage for the 7D2 was it being available for quite some time when the 80D wasnt. But for a few hundred dollars to get better AF, burst rate, double cards etc, its still a pretty good deal in my view, just not a 'no-brainer' depending on your particular needs.


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## hbr (Jul 14, 2017)

Otara said:


> I have the 80D and 7D2, and to be honest I find it swings and roundabouts rather than an outright winner.
> 
> My n=1 test for weathersealing shows the 80D survived remarkedly well after a full immersion in seawater after a fall for instance. Its currently being assessed, but so far only the flash went, with all other functions and buttons still working fine. And if anything Id say its sealed slightly better there than the 7D2, going to tape it over after just looking at I think.
> 
> The biggest advantage for the 7D2 was it being available for quite some time when the 80D wasnt. But for a few hundred dollars to get better AF, burst rate, double cards etc, its still a pretty good deal in my view, just not a 'no-brainer' depending on your particular needs.



Otara, sorry to hear about your mishap with the 80D. I have a question that I have been wanting to ask from someone who owns both cameras. I own the 7D II and almost purchased the 80D as a backup. Is the IQ any better on the 80D than on the 7D II? I have heard a lot of good things about the 80D.

Thanks, Brian


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## bluemoon (Jul 14, 2017)

Otara said:


> I have the 80D and 7D2, and to be honest I find it swings and roundabouts rather than an outright winner.
> 
> My n=1 test for weathersealing shows the 80D survived remarkedly well after a full immersion in seawater after a fall for instance. Its currently being assessed, but so far only the flash went, with all other functions and buttons still working fine. And if anything Id say its sealed slightly better there than the 7D2, going to tape it over after just looking at I think.
> 
> The biggest advantage for the 7D2 was it being available for quite some time when the 80D wasnt. But for a few hundred dollars to get better AF, burst rate, double cards etc, its still a pretty good deal in my view, just not a 'no-brainer' depending on your particular needs.



if the saltwater got in, the corrosion will be gradual and the camera can fail over time. If the even was recent, you should look into getting it cleaned up before it's too late!

pierre


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## Otara (Jul 14, 2017)

Its all good, got some great pictures and nothing lost. Might even still be OK!

At 100 or 200 ISO yes from a DR perspective, after that, no and in theory slightly worse, in practise cant really see it myself. It does make a lot of sense as a backup/complementary option which is really why I got it, in that you have more video options, the screen is nice for lower shots, for landscape 100 wider DR is nice etc.


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## tomscott (Jul 14, 2017)

In my mind its blatant who has used the camera and who hasnt from some of the comments.

Ok its not as good as the competition (NOW) in terms of IQ and I think that is generally the sticking point. The fact you can buy them for £900 new is off the scale for performance. 

Otherwise it is a solid solid camera!! The speed, latitude, lack of colour noise, great high ISO files (from a crop camera) and its build which is fantastic. I would rely on this for any situation and have taken it to some places that most wouldn't.

Put it this way if a new one came The MKII would be a bargain camera for a lot of people.

The speed isnt just useful in wildlife and sports. 

Even in portraits being able to rattle off 3 frames so quickly, same at weddings. Really loved my 5DMKIII but the 7D has no colour noise or banding and its speed is just so refreshing and its always there in a normal sized body. In fact I think the files compare very well when compared to the 5DMKIII ok the higher ISO is better but I wouldn't say its absolutely night and day, the purple shadow colour cast you get with the 5DMKIII and the banding makes editing images later really difficult and time consuming whereas you dont get that on the newer sensors like in the 7DMKII although im sure the 5DMKIV more than bests it I was blown away with it when I got hold of one.

The III feels archaic in comparison. I think people expecting the camera to perform like a FF camera are asking a lot but it performs well when you bare that in mind. lt is what it is and it excels IMO with anything you throw at it.

The only place I feel I have been hampered with the camera has been in Rainforests with the huge contrast differences.

Photographing Gorillas in Uganda or Orangutans in Bukit Luwang Indonesia. Where The light was really poor dark shadows and shards of bright light. Shooting at 6400ISO trying to keep a high enough shutter speed to reduce motion blur.

Setting the scene 40+ deg C with almost 100% humidity trekking for 6+ hours to get to these animals. Huge down pores of rain. Never skipped a beat mechanically. 

The pictures look really impressive IMO, all shot with 100-400mm F5.6 MKII as I was traveling (backpacking) and trekking large distances, no way I was trekking with a big prime. In hindsight a 70-200mm F2.8 would have been sufficient as its unbelievable how close you get but you wouldn't get close enough for a tight portrait. I was also traveling the world shooting lots of different subjects so didnt have space for both.

Another couple of images. Again apologies they are from my FB page with a lot of compression. I will upload them to flickr at some point.



























TBH at 6400ISO I think these look fantastic. I also took my 5DMKIII but decided against taking it on this trek because I took both when in Uganda and the 5DMKIII was dead weight in the bag. After seeing the results of the 7DMKII i was fully confident in the images not to worry.
















Get it in some decent light and... the images are incredible.































It also pretty much ensures you get the moment... Shooting Motorsport when fuel ignites from the exhaust is so hard to capture.



No.27 Nissan R91CK (1991) (Nova Engineering) Silverstone Classics 2016 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Also pretty much ensures you nail shots 90% of the time, the speed and AF is amazing. Few images I shot for Jaguars Art of performance tour at Silverstone. Shot about 400 images and although I was shooting for motion blur I was amazed at how many were keepers. Usually shooting Motorsport with slow shutter speeds 10-15% are keepers where the focus is where you want and the blur is aesthetic. Was blown away.

So there you go real world. Shot about 300,000 images with this camera in the last 2 1/2 years and its still shooting as if it were new. The body looks a little more worse for wear tho!

Awesome machine.



Jaguar - Art of Performance Tour by Tom Scott, on Flickr



Jaguar - Art of Performance Tour by Tom Scott, on Flickr


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## Don Haines (Jul 14, 2017)

Everyone knows that crop cameras can not be used in poor light, so there is no way you would use a 7D2 handheld an hour after sunset..... yet it works....


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 14, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> Everyone knows that crop cameras can not be used in poor light, so there is no way you would use a 7D2 handheld an hour after sunset..... yet it works....



Don...Don...Don. Why do you persist on posting examples like this, where you've done the post processing completely wrong? If you've learned nearly nothing from these forums, you should have at least learned that shadows are to be abhored. Yes, yes...I know it's an hour after sunset. But that's your fault, you should have gotten there at noon when there was direct light on the foreground. Instead, because of your laziness and/or untimeliness, your foreground is dark. Too dark. Way too dark. And when you go to correct your egregious error in post processing, the dramatic flaws of the 7DII are revealed (particularly if you view a 100% crop). 

;D


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## Geek (Jul 14, 2017)

Yes, Don we all agree that no crop camera should be used after sunset. And much less handheld. But here is another after sunset handheld picture taken with a 7DII. Pretty much straight out of the camera. Developed with Lightroom and standard presets, no noise reduction, sharpening or anything.


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## Don Haines (Jul 14, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Everyone knows that crop cameras can not be used in poor light, so there is no way you would use a 7D2 handheld an hour after sunset..... yet it works....
> ...



You are right, I forgot to push it by 4 stops.... Everyone knows that you are supposed to miss your exposure by 4 stops.....


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## Cthulhu (Jul 15, 2017)

tomscott said:


> The only place I feel I have been hampered with the camera has been in Rainforests with the huge contrast differences.



That's exactly what everybody is saying when they complain about canon's IQ...while most on this forum seem to think the only purpose for more DR is to purposefully underxpose photos I am more concerned about my high contrast scenes, because if you shoot wild life and animals that's a lot of what you get.
That's the reason my 7d2 is collecting dust, despite being a joy to use.

Great photos by the way!


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 15, 2017)

Cthulhu said:


> , because if you shoot wild life and animals that's a lot of what you get.
> That's the reason my 7d2 is collecting dust, despite being a joy to use.





I shoot pretty much _nothing but_ wildlife and animals, and I've pretty much worn my 7D Mk II out doing it.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 15, 2017)

Cthulhu said:


> .while most on this forum seem to think the only purpose for more DR is to purposefully underxpose photos



No, that's just a sarcastic dig at the obsession with DR - we know what the "advantages" of higher low ISO DR are, we're just utterly unpersuaded that they're as important as the DRones make them out to be.

I want my DR advantage to be at the other end of the histogram, and Canon bodies are excellent in the highlights.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 15, 2017)

Talys said:


> Because of the 80D is a superb APS-C stills camera, there isn't a lot of reason to consider a 7DII today.



You keep saying that, despite it having been pointed out to you several times that it's nonsense.

Why?

We don't all sit in well-lit studios shooting watches and food packaging.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 15, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> Give us a clean high-ISO, high-DR cropped for action/wildlife, one that extracts the very best from L quality lenses, and I'll buy.


That's the 7D Mk II...


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## Cthulhu (Jul 16, 2017)

Keith_Reeder said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Give us a clean high-ISO, high-DR cropped for action/wildlife, one that extracts the very best from L quality lenses, and I'll buy.
> ...



Ok bud, you can love your camera without pretending it does things everyone knows it cannot.


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## rizenphoenix (Jul 16, 2017)

So the xxD line still won't have 4k and the only 4k video aps-c will be a fixed screen model costing 2,000+USD? Don't do us any favors canon.


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## Larsskv (Jul 16, 2017)

Keith_Reeder said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Give us a clean high-ISO, high-DR cropped for action/wildlife, one that extracts the very best from L quality lenses, and I'll buy.
> ...



+1!

I have several pictures taken with the 7DII at ISO 6400 that look very good, both in sharpness and color, and with acceptable noise levels. It doesn't match the 1DX, but that is asking for too much.


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