# Here is the Canon EOS R6



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 6, 2020)

> While the Canon EOS R5 has received most of the press and excitement, there is a quickly growing interest in the more affordable Canon EOS R6. This camera is going to be a hit as well.
> Below are leaked images of the Canon EOS R6, which will be announced on Thursday.
> 
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


----------



## VICYASA (Jul 6, 2020)

EOS R > r6


----------



## mariosk1gr (Jul 6, 2020)

Amazing specs and price... Best seller imo!!


----------



## CarlMillerPhoto (Jul 6, 2020)

I was planning on just buying the R5 on Thursday...now it seems I'm going to be forced to get an R6 too. Here's hoping I don't get divorced.


----------



## Th0msky (Jul 6, 2020)

I’m getting so excited for this camera!! TAKE MY MONEY ALREADY


----------



## TomR (Jul 6, 2020)

VICYASA said:


> EOS R > r6



No one is going to miss that touch bar


----------



## RMac (Jul 6, 2020)

putting the joy in *joy*stick


----------



## geekyrocketguy (Jul 6, 2020)

So, uh, how's the DR and ISO performance? None of the posted specs besides resolution impact still image quality. Are photographers just forgotten when announcing cameras these days?


----------



## WhereDoWeGoFrmHere (Jul 6, 2020)

No top down screen on a body this size still feels silly to me. Even more so now seeing the top layout.


----------



## padam (Jul 6, 2020)

It seems to be near-perfect for the price.
They had so many things to cripple and they've decided not to do it.
Good thinking on their part, well done.


----------



## knight427 (Jul 6, 2020)

I'm still really hoping for $1999 body-only.


----------



## Joules (Jul 6, 2020)

geekyrocketguy said:


> So, uh, how's the DR and ISO performance? None of the posted specs besides resolution impact still image quality. Are photographers just forgotten when announcing cameras these days?


Nothing about the R6 was announced. It is 100% leaks. 

And regardless of that, Canon doesn't advertise DR or read noise values. The most we got in this regard was a leak about the DR on the 6D 2 way back when, as far as I know.

DR and low light performance will be good, as they have been in all recent releases. There's now basically no more room for improvement, so what do you expect? I bet this is the same sensor as found in the 1DX III.


----------



## peters (Jul 6, 2020)

VICYASA said:


> EOS R > r6


Only if you are not into video. For anyone doing photo AND/OR video, this is certainly a beast of a allrounder camera at a very nice price


----------



## koch1948 (Jul 6, 2020)

I'm very happy with my EOS R. I'm not looking for either the EOS R5 or EOS R6..... The EOS R1 might not be available for nearly two more years, but that camera should really be nice!


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jul 6, 2020)

Getting the R5 was always a given for me. Planned to keep the R, but will sell it for an R6. I love the EOS R, but the video shooter side of me cannot ignore the IBIS and uncropped shooting modes.


----------



## RMac (Jul 6, 2020)

geekyrocketguy said:


> So, uh, how's the DR and ISO performance? None of the posted specs besides resolution impact still image quality. Are photographers just forgotten when announcing cameras these days?


Has Canon ever reported dynamic range figures for stills cameras? I've always had to wait for reviews and for results to post on photonstophotos.net for that.


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 6, 2020)

peters said:


> Only if you are not into video. For anyone doing photo AND/OR video, this is certainly a beast of a allrounder camera at a very nice price


That's not exactly true for all of us. I like the "megapickles" (thank you @slclick ) of the R better for stills. I probably will for video also. Everyone has different needs, but my choice would be the R over the R6 for stills/video. I am compositionally impaired when taking some photos, so I enjoy the extra cropping ability of the larger files to maintain image quality in larger prints.  IBIS would be nice, but I have lived just fine without it. I can always get c-log with an ATMOS recorder for the R, I think. I might be wrong. Just now getting back into video.


----------



## padam (Jul 6, 2020)

RMac said:


> Has Canon ever reported dynamic range figures for stills cameras? I've always had to wait for reviews and for results to post on photonstophotos.net for that.


Same for every other camera.
Sony didn't say anywhere that the A9 has less dynamic range than the A7III (or even the 5D IV), even though it does.


----------



## Mark3794 (Jul 6, 2020)

It's just me or it looks beautiful? It looks like a 1DX from the top.


----------



## cayenne (Jul 6, 2020)

knight427 said:


> I'm still really hoping for $1999 body-only.



Geez, it's 2020.....you're not going to get a "real" camera for that cheap. 

I'm guessing if you want an entry level camera, go for the R or RP...those I believe will be priced in the range you want if not now...soon.

But a brand new release that is decently on the ProSumer level...forget it.

Photography has never been a cheap hobby, and likely never will be.


Just my $0.02,

cayenne


----------



## sagtor (Jul 6, 2020)

Very glad about the oversampled 5k for post stabilization but the 20mp are just garbage. That's what my old 7D from 10 years ago has, 18.
20 is a joke in 2020. Very unfortunate.


----------



## highdesertmesa (Jul 6, 2020)

sagtor said:


> Very glad about the oversampled 5k for post stabilization but the 20mp are just garbage. That's what my old 7D from 10 years ago has, 18.
> 20 is a joke in 2020. Very unfortunate.



Me: Looking at a 36"x24" on my wall taken with the original 5D and thinking things will somehow be just fine.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jul 6, 2020)

sagtor said:


> Very glad about the oversampled 5k for post stabilization but the 20mp are just garbage. That's what my old 7D from 10 years ago has, 18.
> 20 is a joke in 2020. Very unfortunate.



Then the 1DX must be a joke too. I feel sorry for those people who bought it.


----------



## highdesertmesa (Jul 6, 2020)

The R6 is going to be a much better backup/2nd camera to the R5 simply because they share the same rear button placement. Trying to move back and forth between the R5 and R could be maddening, for me anyway.


----------



## Stuart (Jul 6, 2020)

ISO is the big question for me and, focus down to -Xev? can it focus an 800mm f11 lens with a 2xTC at f22?


----------



## ColinJR (Jul 6, 2020)

TomR said:


> No one is going to miss that touch bar


Very true—but I would miss the 50% fewer pixels!


----------



## Max TT (Jul 6, 2020)

Had to check calendar to see if today was Christmas!


----------



## Max TT (Jul 6, 2020)

knight427 said:


> I'm still really hoping for $1999 body-only.



Yes please!


----------



## amorse (Jul 6, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> ... I like the "megapickles" ...


I was always fond of "megaschnitzels" myself


----------



## bergstrom (Jul 6, 2020)

I have to google what zebras are. The 20mp is a joke though.


----------



## rwvaughn (Jul 6, 2020)

Was there ever solid confirmation that the R6 was a 20mp body? Or, did someone claim it was and everyone ran with that?


----------



## amorse (Jul 6, 2020)

RMac said:


> Has Canon ever reported dynamic range figures for stills cameras? I've always had to wait for reviews and for results to post on photonstophotos.net for that.


Even if they did, would people take it to heart? Any time Sony/Nikon announces new advancements in DR I've always taken it with a grain of salt because we have no idea whether their value is comparing apples to apples when talking about values reported by any other authority/company. I agree - it's all hearsay until there are some comparable tests out there.


----------



## padam (Jul 6, 2020)

rwvaughn said:


> Was there ever solid confirmation that the R6 was a 20mp body? Or, did someone claim it was and everyone ran with that?


Yes, it was already leaked in February and mentioned multiple times later on, so it is safe to assume that it is a 20MP camera.

It seems perfectly logical as well, considering all other mirrorless cameras (Fuji, Nikon, Panasonic, Sony) in this category will continue to stay around 24MP (Fuji has 26MP but it is a crop X-trans sensor, so it actually has less resolution), they also have more expensive models with more megapixels.
And for all practical purposes, it does not matter if it is 20 or 24 - but it does matter how good the ISO is or how good the video is, these are huge upgrades over the EOS R (which will cost almost half as much as the R6, so it remains an option for those who want 30MP with a lower price over anything else).


----------



## zonefocus (Jul 6, 2020)

Dual card slots. Same button layout as higher specced body. joystick. same AF. same FPS.no crop video. Who are you and what have you done with the real Canon?


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 6, 2020)

geekyrocketguy said:


> So, uh, how's the DR and ISO performance? None of the posted specs besides resolution impact still image quality. Are photographers just forgotten when announcing cameras these days?


No. It is more that most serious photographers realise that DR while important is going to be more than acceptable on any FF camera nowadays. 1/2 a stop here or there is not going to make or break your photo


----------



## reefroamer (Jul 6, 2020)

bergstrom said:


> I have to google what zebras are. The 20mp is a joke though.


For more MP, you’ll have three other R bodies in the RP, R AND R5. And a range of prices above and below the R6. Good choices.


----------



## Jim Corbett (Jul 6, 2020)

sagtor said:


> Very glad about the oversampled 5k for post stabilization but the 20mp are just garbage. That's what my old 7D from 10 years ago has, 18.
> 20 is a joke in 2020. Very unfortunate.


Think of bigger pixels, better low-light performance. The curse is also a blessing; just switch your focus point.


----------



## reefroamer (Jul 6, 2020)

My suspicion is that if Canon is coming out with f11 versions of 600mm and 800mm lenses, they must be pretty confident in the ISO and DR for both the R5 and R6. And obviously, to me, they are keeping a few nuggets under wraps til July 9 so they will actually still have some headliners For the actual reveal.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 6, 2020)

getting better by the day. joystick and all. I really think this will be my Xmas pressie to compliment the 7d2 as a low light wildlife body and a dedicated Aurora body. Good times


----------



## joestopper (Jul 6, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Would be a great upgrade of the R. But i got used to work with 30mp and i cannot see myself going back to 20mp. Otherwise a great camera. I guess if they had put a 30mp sensor in the R6 it would be too close to the R5 ...


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 6, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Would be a great upgrade of the R. But i got used to work with 30mp and i cannot see myself going back to 20mp. Otherwise a great camera. I guess if they had put a 30mp sensor in the R6 it would be too close to the R5 ...


More importantly they would have had to develop a new sensor. Thia way they can reuse the 1Dx3 sensor and save on R&D costs thereby keeping the cost of the camera down


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jul 6, 2020)

I guess I don't mind that the R6 has _only_ 20MP, because if I want more, I'll have the R5.

I'm looking at it as an optimized 4K video camera.


----------



## Jimmy (Jul 6, 2020)

They're using Bluetooth 4.2 on the R6 instead of 5.0 like on the R5? WTH? That's not saving them any money, it's just a way of making people think twice before choosing the R6 over the R5.
The 20 mp sensor is a huge step backward and not necessary since the R6 will still be an expensive camera.


----------



## David Hull (Jul 6, 2020)

knight427 said:


> I'm still really hoping for $1999 body-only.


Sounds like the "R" is your camera and... lucky for you, it is already out.


----------



## Jimmy (Jul 6, 2020)

When will Tamron have R mount lenses? The ones Canon has are slow!


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 6, 2020)

Jimmy said:


> When will Tamron have R mount lenses? The ones Canon has are slow!


Whaaaat? You call a 28-70 f2 slow!!!!!!!


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 6, 2020)

So there is a customizable top thumb dial where the mode dial is on the R5? That's a nice addition. EC / ISO? The R5 mode dial looks like it might be configurable too and the top down screen is nice.


----------



## Bob Howland (Jul 6, 2020)

Finally!!! The lack of R6 pictures and the surplus of R5 pictures was getting annoying.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 7, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> So there is a customizable top thumb dial where the mode dial is on the R5? That's a nice addition. EC / ISO? The R5 mode dial looks like it might be configurable too and the top down screen is nice.


I reckon that customizable dial will be smashing for ISO and the control ring for EC when in Auto ISO


----------



## Darrell Cadieux (Jul 7, 2020)

sagtor said:


> Very glad about the oversampled 5k for post stabilization but the 20mp are just garbage. That's what my old 7D from 10 years ago has, 18.
> 20 is a joke in 2020. Very unfortunate.


You do realize just about every billboard you've ever seen is images printed from cameras of less than 20mp. Then there is the new 1DXIII...at 20mp it must be a joke too. Guys that think their equipment makes them a photographer make me laugh. A good photographer can take a Kodak Instamatic 110 and do good work with it.


----------



## Traveler (Jul 7, 2020)

TomR said:


> No one is going to miss that touch bar


I’m gonna keep my R because of the Touch Bar and the little LCD.


----------



## magarity (Jul 7, 2020)

My only real question is, should I take my chances selling my 6D to sketchy buyers on eBay or just trade in at the local camera shop for a lower price but no hassle?


----------



## WriteLight (Jul 7, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> More importantly they would have had to develop a new sensor. Thia way they can reuse the 1Dx3 sensor and save on R&D costs thereby keeping the cost of the camera down


Wasn't it confirmed that it will NOT be using the 1DX3 sensor?


----------



## GoldWing (Jul 7, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Do people really buy these 20MP cameras for fun? Why such low resolution in 2020?


----------



## Mike9129 (Jul 7, 2020)

20mp is tons, exactly how big are you planning on printing your image that it wont be ok?

I've a 190x96cm or so photo printed off the inspire 2 x5s camera, and that's a 20mp sensor as well but micro 4/3's.
Looks absolutely perfect in print, and now imagine how much sharper it would be with a FF sensor like will be in the R6

Honestly, more MP aren't needed unless you're doing billboards or printing 6ft photos for galleries, by which time you'll probably be talking about shooting on medium format anyway. 

R6 looks great, my only gripe, and to be fair, its a very small gripe, is the mode dial on top of the camera, that could surely be done like on the R and the space used for some other dial?

If theres one thing the R did right IMO, it was the mode selection buttons to save space on the top.
Tho they made a serious blunder with the touch bar and the lack of a scroll wheel on the back.


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 7, 2020)

This camera is nothing short of perfect in my book, unless Canon manages to add some sort of really disappointing limitation in there during the official launch this is without a doubt the camera I've been waiting for. As I've mentioned in other threads to me there is still a few missing pieces and a few things I still would like to have that is still unknown:


Recording Limit - This is my number one concern. If this will be my C200 B camera it cannot have a recording limit. The GH5 doesn't have one and neither does the S1H, Panasonic simply released different firmware for their European models.
Dual Card Slot Video Recording - This is a feature I hate about my 5DIV. It has dual card slots but only records video to a single slot at a time. Hopefully the R6 and R5 record to both slots for video; for the R5 at least up to 4K60FPS for dual slot video recording. 8K and 4K120FPS would make sense only recording to the faster slot.
Canon Log - Still waiting to see what flavor of Canon Log, I'm thinking it will be CLOG3 which would match up perfectly with their Cinema line.
XLR Module - Not as important as the first two but all of my audio gear uses XLR connectors
Compression Codecs - still waiting to see if they offer h.265 and h.264 or just h.264
External Recorders - will be interesting to see what options they enable for external recording via the HDMI port


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 7, 2020)

WriteLight said:


> Wasn't it confirmed that it will NOT be using the 1DX3 sensor?


Not to my knowledge. But canon regularly repurposes sensors but with different microlenses(which is what I think 
this will be) and calls them new


----------



## Mike9129 (Jul 7, 2020)

PS, this is what the 6d mark ii should have been


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 7, 2020)

How many 20 FPS/20 MP full frame sensors can Canon have? Canon might say it's different from the 1DX Mark III for marketing purposes but, *If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it ain't no armadillo*.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 7, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> Do people really buy these 20MP cameras for fun? Why such low resolution in 2020?


 More MP are always nice but 20 is hardly a problem. I shoot a 7d2 which is 20mp, crop the hell out of them( often down to as little as 5 or 6 mp) and print at A3 size and the prints look fine. And as the cropping is not always done due to reach limitations then the FF sensor with 20mp will be better than what I have currently. I don't buy the whole 'you have to print at 300dpi' crap. It just is not the case


----------



## HeavyPiper (Jul 7, 2020)

I'm excited, not sure that my wife is not as excited, I'm sure she will understand.


----------



## padam (Jul 7, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> This camera is nothing short of perfect in my book, unless Canon manages to add some sort of really disappointing limitation in there during the official launch this is without a doubt the camera I've been waiting for. As I've mentioned in other threads to me there is still a few missing pieces and a few things I still would like to have that is still unknown:
> 
> 
> Recording Limit - This is my number one concern. If this will be my C200 B camera it cannot have a recording limit. The GH5 doesn't have one and neither does the S1H, Panasonic simply released different firmware for their European models.
> ...


The 1DX III is already giving us an answer to most of those questions, let's go through them:

Yes, there is a recording limit for internal recording, external recording has no limit.

There is no dual recording option, only proxy recording for RAW video (but 8K is probably too much to process, so there may not be proxy on the EOS R5)

Canon Log is the standard one and the only one for the R6, since Canon Log 3 is only accessible by shooting RAW (only on the R5 and only up to 8K30P)

Other brands do offer XLR modules, but I wouldn't expect it for Canon stills cameras.

Canon Log is H.265 10-bit 4:2:2 and without using Log it is 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264

They offer the same as with 1DX III so HDMI output up to 4k60p 10-bit 4:2:2 Canon Log, just like the internal but it should be less demanding on the PC (and it has no recording limit)


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 7, 2020)

HeavyPiper said:


> I'm excited, not sure that my wife is not as excited, I'm sure she will understand.


I have five months to convince my wife that this cameras is necessary. Not easy for someone who does not understand sensor performance in low light etc. Any tips would be appreciated. 
Ps. I ALWAYS immediately say yes when she wants to buy another item of clothing that isn't needed so I do have that in my favor


----------



## Darrell Cadieux (Jul 7, 2020)

magarity said:


> My only real question is, should I take my chances selling my 6D to sketchy buyers on eBay or just trade in at the local camera shop for a lower price but no hassle?


If it's in good shape, keep your 6D and buy your new EOS R5/6. That's what I am doing. The 6D is an excellent camera, a real workhorse with great low light capabilities. Mine has served me very well.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 7, 2020)

RMac said:


> Has Canon ever reported dynamic range figures for stills cameras?


They were too shy, and for a reason...


----------



## WriteLight (Jul 7, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> More MP are always nice but 20 is hardly a problem. I shoot a 7d2 which is 20mp, crop the hell out of them( often down to as little as 5 or 6 mp) and print at A3 size and the prints look fine. And as the cropping is not always done due to reach limitations then the FF sensor with 20mp will be better than what I have currently. I don't buy the whole 'you have to print at 300dpi' crap. It just is not the case


Trying to find the original source...this was from dailycameranews.com but I'm sure they picked it up from somewhere, thought it was Canonrumors:

_*20mp full-frame CMOS sensor (not the same as the Canon 1DX Mark III) *_


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jul 7, 2020)

Mike9129 said:


> PS, this is what the 6d mark ii should have been



The logo looks weird on the R6, almost like a cover of something.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jul 7, 2020)

WriteLight said:


> Trying to find the original source...this was from dailycameranews.com but I'm sure they picked it up from somewhere, thought it was this site:
> 
> _*20mp full-frame CMOS sensor (not the same as the Canon 1DX Mark III) *_



Canon always says it's not the same sensor even if 99% is the same.


----------



## fox40phil (Jul 7, 2020)

Will it shoot 1/8000s!?! I hope so... but the missing of the top display is a joke hm?!? They could easily have two (or four) different full frame sections!! But still with great body ergonomics etc... especially when you have a huuuge gap between the megapixels of two cameras if one company... (20 vs. ~45).... 

I don’t understand those moves by Canon....


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 7, 2020)

WriteLight said:


> Trying to find the original source...this was from dailycameranews.com but I'm sure they picked it up from somewhere, thought it was Canonrumors:
> 
> _*20mp full-frame CMOS sensor (not the same as the Canon 1DX Mark III) *_


Yes but again. Canon always say that when sticking a new microlens array on an old sensor(not that the 1Dx3 sensor is old but you know what I mean). So it won't be 'identical' to the 1Dx3 sensor, it will just be the same base with a different topping. Now I could absolutely be wrong but It would not make a lot of sense for Canon to be producing two top of the line 20mp sensors


----------



## mppix (Jul 7, 2020)

Am I the only one who thinks that this one replaces the 6D AND 7D?


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 7, 2020)

padam said:


> The 1DX III is already giving us an answer to most of those questions, let's go through them:
> 
> Yes, there is a recording limit for internal recording, external recording has no limit.
> 
> ...



Different camera, different firmware, and different target uses...just because it has the same sensor does not mean it will share much of anything else with the 1DX3. This is already evident by the lack of raw output and different card slot speeds. Also I have the C200, CLOG3 is available when shooting LongGOP.

IMO the only things we can learn from the 1DX3 are actual sensor specs like DR and ISO performance.


----------



## Jimmy (Jul 7, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Whaaaat? You call a 28-70 f2 slow!!!!!!!


No, but 24-105 f/4 - 7.1 I do.


----------



## TAF (Jul 7, 2020)

knight427 said:


> I'm still really hoping for $1999 body-only.



I’m hoping for less than that. Perhaps $1799 body only and $2499 with the 24-105 f4 L is


----------



## Otara (Jul 7, 2020)

SO many leaks, so little time, they really are going for it this time. I suspect this is what I should get vs what my GAS is telling me to get.


----------



## jdavidse (Jul 7, 2020)

I appreciate how they've made the control layout identical to the R5. These cameras will compliment each other nicely.


----------



## Rpaulsen (Jul 7, 2020)

TomR said:


> No one is going to miss that touch bar



I tried. I really did.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 7, 2020)

Jimmy said:


> No, but 24-105 f/4 - 7.1 I do.


Then buy the fast options and not the slow ones. They do have a 24-105 f4 you know No one is forcing you to buy the slow ones. And considering canon will have in 3 years what it has taken Sony ten to achieve(in lenses) then I don't think you will have to worry about glass.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 7, 2020)

mppix said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that this one replaces the 6D AND 7D?


6D and partial 7d replacement. It matters A LOT about the EVF performance if you want it to be a dedicated wildlife camera. I will get it to COMPLIMENT my 7d2, not to replace it


----------



## Skux (Jul 7, 2020)

Joystick, three dials, no touch bar. It's gonna be a good time.


----------



## bellorusso (Jul 7, 2020)

C'mon. Amazing price would be $1200. But 2500 is pretty much at the top end of what is expectable. 



mariosk1gr said:


> Amazing specs and price... Best seller imo!!


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 7, 2020)

Jimmy said:


> They're using Bluetooth 4.2 on the R6 instead of 5.0 like on the R5? WTH? That's not saving them any money, it's just a way of making people think twice before choosing the R6 over the R5.
> The 20 mp sensor is a huge step backward and not necessary since the R6 will still be an expensive camera.



right! they should just take the R5 and paint a 6 over the 5 and do nothing else than sell the R6 for ~$2,000 less.


----------



## degos (Jul 7, 2020)

mppix said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that this one replaces the 6D AND 7D?



Probably, yes. I shoot 1DX beside folk with the 7D2 and 5DS and the detail they can capture is phenomenal. 20MP in FF just can't compete, even the ISO advantage is lost because I have to fit a teleconverter to try to make up for the disparity.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 7, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> Do people really buy these 20MP cameras for fun? Why such low resolution in 2020?


From the replies here, a LOT More than you would ever imagine.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 7, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> How many 20 FPS/20 MP full frame sensors can Canon have? Canon might say it's different from the 1DX Mark III for marketing purposes but, *If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it ain't no armadillo*.



maybe it's a coot?


----------



## canonnews (Jul 7, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> It's just me or it looks beautiful? It looks like a 1DX from the top.


it's just you. that's no where near 1 series ergonomics.


----------



## Billybob (Jul 7, 2020)

mppix said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that this one replaces the 6D AND 7D?


Yes. 

6D is FF (R6 replaces it)
7D is crop sensor; no way does R6 replace it. It just won't have the extended reach desired for WL photography. The R5 is more of a replacement because it will have far greater crop-ability.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 7, 2020)

Here is a question that i don't know the answer too. And not sure if anyone else will. If I got the R6 and adapeted my sigma 150-600c WITH the 2x converter attached would it work? I am assuming it should in which case I would have a 300-1200 f11-16? Thoughts?
Edit. Just had a look and I don't think it will work


----------



## GoldWing (Jul 7, 2020)

Mike9129 said:


> 20mp is tons, exactly how big are you planning on printing your image that it wont be ok?
> 
> I've a 190x96cm or so photo printed off the inspire 2 x5s camera, and that's a 20mp sensor as well but micro 4/3's.
> Looks absolutely perfect in print, and now imagine how much sharper it would be with a FF sensor like will be in the R6
> ...


20MP is not "fine". Its low resolution and unless applied to specific 1DXII or III its now outdated. Canon must have a ton of low resolution 20MP sensors left and will sell them to rubes.


----------



## dwarven (Jul 7, 2020)




----------



## Jethro (Jul 7, 2020)

The R6 isn't for me - I like the extra MP and top LED in my EOS R too much, and yes, I do actually use the bar-of-infamy. What I'm fascinated to see is how well the IBIS works in practice (including in conjunction with in-lens IS). I do see an IBIS-enabled Canon FF entering my life at some point in my future ...


----------



## Jethro (Jul 7, 2020)

dwarven said:


>


Well the rumour is USD2500 isn't it? Before the eventual discounts obviously.


----------



## canonnews (Jul 7, 2020)

Billybob said:


> 6D is FF (R6 replaces it)
> 7D is crop sensor; no way does R6 replace it. It just won't have the extended reach desired for WL photography. The R5 is more of a replacement because it will have far greater crop-ability.


it may - but then again the R6 will completely roast the 7D in terms of reach AF - with bird eyeAF and the ability to AF below F/11.


----------



## SteveC (Jul 7, 2020)

canonnews said:


> it may - but then again the R6 will completely roast the 7D in terms of reach AF - with bird eyeAF and the ability to AF below F/11.



They both will have that.

To tell what the replacement is, you should look at features/utility the 7D has, that only one of the other two cameras provides.


----------



## CvH (Jul 7, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> So there is a customizable top thumb dial where the mode dial is on the R5? That's a nice addition. EC / ISO? The R5 mode dial looks like it might be configurable too and the top down screen is nice.



I assigned EC to the Lens Control Ring so it will be perfect for me if the mode dial can be configured for ISO.


----------



## dwarven (Jul 7, 2020)

Can't wait for a 7D mirrorless replacement.


----------



## sagtor (Jul 7, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Me: Looking at a 36"x24" on my wall taken with the original 5D and thinking things will somehow be just fine.


That's good for you. I take it you sell prints online and have a magic way to upres them to be able to sell them? Because I don't. I'm not talking about personal prints. I don't care about 20 more mp for a picture on my wall. Print services do.


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 7, 2020)

fox40phil said:


> Will it shoot 1/8000s!?! I hope so... but the missing of the top display is a joke hm?!? They could easily have two (or four) different full frame sections!! But still with great body ergonomics etc... especially when you have a huuuge gap between the megapixels of two cameras if one company... (20 vs. ~45)....
> 
> I don’t understand those moves by Canon....



Which would you rather have, the 1DX3 sensor in an amazing camera for less than.$2500 or a top display?

I also think it makes more sense if you look at this camera as more video focused. Video bodies are usually in cages where you couldn't see the top display anyway.

I don't think I have ever used the top display on my 5D4 for anything; in my opinion when the only thing you can see is the top of the camera a tilting flipping screen is way more useful.


----------



## Cat_Interceptor (Jul 7, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> 20MP is not "fine". Its low resolution and unless applied to specific 1DXII or III its now outdated. Canon must have a ton of low resolution 20MP sensors left and will sell them to rubes.



20mp is NOT low resolution.


----------



## Cbenedict (Jul 7, 2020)

VICYASA said:


> EOS R > r6


Seriously! I wish they would have done an EOS R MkII call it whatever, but two card slots in an EOS R and it would have been a perfect mid grade R6 grade camera.


----------



## Cbenedict (Jul 7, 2020)

WhereDoWeGoFrmHere said:


> No top down screen on a body this size still feels silly to me. Even more so now seeing the top layout.


No one wanted an updated RP they wanted an updated R


----------



## Eclipsed (Jul 7, 2020)

amorse said:


> Even if they did, would people take it to heart? Any time Sony/Nikon announces new advancements in DR I've always taken it with a grain of salt because we have no idea whether their value is comparing apples to apples when talking about values reported by any other authority/company. I agree - it's all hearsay until there are some comparable tests out there.


“Hearsay” doesn’t mean unreliable or untrustworthy or self serving. It means second hand reports. Which is what it sounds like you’re asking for.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 7, 2020)

SteveC said:


> They both will have that.
> 
> To tell what the replacement is, you should look at features/utility the 7D has, that only one of the other two cameras provides.


The biggest selling point of the 7d2 was its price. And only the R6 can match that. Everything is a compromise. The R5 certainly matches in resolution but the R6 is a damn fine offering for a 7d user to step up to FF. IF and the IF is very important, the EVF is quick enough and the build quality is god enough(obviously it won't match the 7d2 or R5 but as long as it is good ENOUGH)


----------



## RickWagoner (Jul 7, 2020)

If it's $2k-$2.5k, 20MP, Robust and fast AF, decent buffer along with the 12fps then this will be the go to wildlife mirrorless camera for many people. The 600 and 800 STM primes are telling me Canon really wants the bulk of the bird and wildlife shooters to come in on their R system now. Even on a low budget you can use EF-S lenses without any issue. IF this is priced right it may be Canon's best mid-range seller.


----------



## Danglin52 (Jul 7, 2020)

bergstrom said:


> I have to google what zebras are. The 20mp is a joke though.


Really depends on the purpose of the camera. I am hoping that R6 is a low light beast and will truly rock at low light. I see a scenario where I am shooting the R5 (40+ max) during the best lighting conditions and then switching to the R6 when the light is marginal and even 1 stop can make a difference. This is especially true if shooting the 600 / 800 f11. I am not convinced the f11 lenses will work for me (DOF as well as speed), but I am going to order the 800mm and give it a try. I just sold my 200-400 f4 (weight NOT dissatisfaction with the lens) and will probably buy or rent a big white when I want to get serious. The idea of a light, packable 800mm has appeal when I wan tot go light or can live with the tradeoffs. The 100-500 + 1.4x TC should take care of anything up to 700mm as long as it matches the performance of the 100-400 II. I have 1dx II 20mp file prints in 30x45 and even a 40x60 hanging on my wall that look just fine - and I am very picky about IQ. The quality of large prints from a 20mp file depends on the camera, lens, amount of crop, lighting conditions and the photographer choosing the optimal settings.


----------



## RickWagoner (Jul 7, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> The biggest selling point of the 7d2 was its price. And only the R6 can match that. Everything is a compromise. The R5 certainly matches in resolution but the R6 is a damn fine offering for a 7d user to step up to FF. IF and the IF is very important, the EVF is quick enough and the build quality is god enough(obviously it won't match the 7d2 or R5 but as long as it is good ENOUGH)



The only real world strong point for the 7d2 is the speedy af. The sensor completely sucked without the firmware ISO tricks, hell it was worse than the 70D which came before it for many types of photography let alone what the 80 and now 90D have. Mind you Canon has not sold all that many 7D2's really, one of their lowest sellers. The Build quality was never needed by most of the people that have one, the 7d2 is one of Canons largest mistakes to hit the market.


----------



## Eclipsed (Jul 7, 2020)

magarity said:


> My only real question is, should I take my chances selling my 6D to sketchy buyers on eBay or just trade in at the local camera shop for a lower price but no hassle?


I found Fred Miranda to be the answer.


----------



## canonnews (Jul 7, 2020)

SteveC said:


> They both will have that.
> 
> To tell what the replacement is, you should look at features/utility the 7D has, that only one of the other two cameras provides.


what "both"? we were talking about the 7D - which only has AF down to F/8 - and certainly does not have animal / bird eye AF .. iTR only works on heads.
While you'll lose around 1.6x reach, you'll gain - far better and more precise AF. No microadjustment necessary and more accurate focus. Also, it's faster than the 7D. Better video too. I mean the only things the 7D will have on it is better battery life, OVF and weather sealing/build quality.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Jul 7, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Canon always says it's not the same sensor even if 99% is the same.


Facts. It's not the same sensors because each camera they make has a different sensor in them that is your's after you purchase it.


----------



## amorse (Jul 7, 2020)

Eclipsed said:


> “Hearsay” doesn’t mean unreliable or untrustworthy or self serving. It means second hand reports. Which is what it sounds like you’re asking for.


If hearsay is apples to apples comparisons by a third party with nothing to gain or lose in the reporting, then yes I'd rather have hearsay than a company claiming they've improved dynamic range up to x stops. I just can see any manufacturer reporting any metric for dynamic range and have that be valuable without something to compare it to. 

Then again, looking at the improvements in that metric over recent bodies, I'd be pretty content if the R5/R6 kept pace with the 5DIV, so maybe I'm not the target demographic for reporting that improvement either.


----------



## mpeeps (Jul 7, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> Getting the R5 was always a given for me. Planned to keep the R, but will sell it for an R6. I love the EOS R, but the video shooter side of me cannot ignore the IBIS and uncropped shooting modes.


yup


----------



## PN5X5 (Jul 7, 2020)

I like everything I hear about this camera except the weak sauce HD 120. Not even 2K? Weak.


----------



## CanoKnight (Jul 7, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Four years ago before my divorce from Canon I would have been begging Canon to take my money for this. But today I have such a wonderful camera in the Lumix S1, my reaction is eh.. good for Canon. They are very late to the game but better late than never. I will keep my fantastic S1. Can I see myself ever getting this ? I don't know. The video quality won't be on par with the S1 but it will have decent AF-C. So maybe one day when the price has dropped sufficiently and I am in a need of a B-cam with good AF-C I may consider. But I don't see that happening anytime soon. Plus my S1 is utterly fantastic.


----------



## mpeeps (Jul 7, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> Facts. It's not the same sensors because each camera they make has a different sensor in them.


Really?


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jul 7, 2020)

The negatives about the R6 are not that big of a deal to me.

No top LCD/Dial. I can live with the fixed mode dial, but I really like the implementation in the EOS R. I think the only tradeoff is the slight change in ergonomics. I've got the EOS R/R5 method ingrained by now... so will just have to remember to twist this separate mode dial on the R6.
Inferior Bluetooth radio. Don't think I use the smartphone app enough for this to bother me. If the R5 turns out to be much more usable than we are used to, I might change my mind on this.
20MP resolution. Perfectly happy with 20MP. Media stays digital so no prints, and I don't do heavy cropping. Also, it's right around that size where it could use the full sensor where there would be no crop in video. Although it does appear that there will be oversampling from 5K. So maybe they could've squeezed a few more MP's in there if they were going to oversample it anyway. All that said, I still plan to get an R5 so if for some reason I feel like I need more resolution... then I'll just use the R5
No RAW video. I will actually shoot in IPB most of the time. And then there's the R5 if RAW is needed.
The positives of the R6 over the EOS R are overwhelmingly awesome for my use case

In Body Image Stabilization, and available in all recording formats. I expect a lot more keepers for photo and video. Also, the more I can reduce using a tripod or a gimbal the better.
4K60P. This would be a lot more impressive if the R5 didn't steal all the headlines. This would have been the first Full frame uncropped 4K60p hybrid camera.
FHD120P. I would almost never use the HD720p @120 in all previous Canon cameras because it was just too soft and it's only manual focus.
No Crop in all video formats. Feels so liberating to not have to use workarounds when crop comes in to play.
Dual UHS-II Card Slots. I'm fine with one card, but I find dual card slots convenient. I don't use one to backup the other. I use it to conveniently keep shooting once one card fills up.
Better EVF. Resolution is better, but hoping for less lag.
12/20 FPS Shutter as opposed to the R's 8FPS (5 in servo)
10-bit internal (I think). The EOS R records 8-bit internal, but can record 10 bit with an external recorder.
Newer AF technologies. Similar to R5. Animal AF. Head AF, I assume, is not the elimination of Eye AF, but I suspect the AF will stay on the head when it loses the eye. So in instances where your subject spins around it should lock on the back of the head. And DPAF will be available in high frame rate mode!
Zebras. I was fine without it, ignoring blown highlights for the sake of properly exposed subjects. But I will definitely use it going forward.
Better Battery. This is assuming the newer high capacity battery is only compatible with the R5/R6. Point is moot if it happens to be backward compatible with older cameras.
Such an awesome camera.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Jul 7, 2020)

mpeeps said:


> Really?


yeah when you pay for a camera its your camera and your sensor.


----------



## Skux (Jul 7, 2020)

20mp is good enough for professional wedding, press, and sports photographers, and big enough to print at 16x12 inches at over 300dpi.

I find it funny that people apparently "need" 30+ megapixels when most of their workflow ends with posts on social media.


----------



## TomR (Jul 7, 2020)

CanoKnight said:


> The video quality won't be on par with the S1



Show us the side by side comparison or stfu


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2020)

How is it we're on page 6 of this thread and we still don't have a superimposed mockup of the R6 on the R5 on the R?

C'mon, people. 

- A


----------



## sagtor (Jul 7, 2020)

I'm more interested in a sizecomparison of R6 vs. DSLRs like 6D or 7D


----------



## Czardoom (Jul 7, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> 20MP is not "fine". Its low resolution and unless applied to specific 1DXII or III its now outdated. Canon must have a ton of low resolution 20MP sensors left and will sell them to rubes.



If you need more than 20 MP, then don't buy the camera. 20 MP is more than enough for weddings, virtually any professional shoot, and prints up to 30: x 20". If that sounds like only "rubes" will buy this camera, then you are an idiot and know nothing about photography.


----------



## sagtor (Jul 7, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> More MP are always nice but 20 is hardly a problem. I shoot a 7d2 which is 20mp, crop the hell out of them( often down to as little as 5 or 6 mp) and print at A3 size and the prints look fine. And as the cropping is not always done due to reach limitations then the FF sensor with 20mp will be better than what I have currently. I don't buy the whole 'you have to print at 300dpi' crap. It just is not the case



Except it is the case.



Skux said:


> 20mp is good enough for professional wedding, press, and sports photographers, and big enough to print at 16x12 inches at over 300dpi.



No.
Not sure how often this needs to be repeated. If you want to sell prints you can't work with 20 mp.
You can print a little poster for yourself no problem, duh. Or for a wedding, sure.
What you can't do is sell your photos at stores doing prints for you, unless you are ok with people only being able to buy 15 inch prints, which means wall art is already out of the question.


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> How is it we're on page 6 of this thread and we still don't have a superimposed mockup of the R6 on the R5 on the R?
> 
> C'mon, people.
> 
> - A






OK, I just did it with the last batch of leaked shots annnnnnd it's too close to call:

Front view is more or less money lining up off the mount. See pic. *Looks like a nearly identical overall front view footprint *-- mount placement, finger space to grip, basic / overall width/chunkiness of the grip, etc. all look nearly identical. The R5 is a hair taller in the 'shoulders' alongside the EVF hump in the front view (disregarding the R6 mode dial sticking up). I will of course point out that front view similarities will mask 3D little nuances like interior sculpting for fingers, so the two grips could conceivably still feel different in the hands in actual use.


Top view is DOA. Clear parallax between the two leaked shots makes lining anything up go to hell. Fixable with liberal stretching and projection corrections, but no. Not tonight from me. I will say I expected the R5 to get thicker front to back to somehow push 8K or 40ish MP x 20 fps without bursting into flames, but I'm not seeing it -- the buttons/dials may be different, but the R6 looks like the same form factor in the top view as the R5. (Surprising, IMHO.)


Comparing either to original EOS R shots is similarly a mess as they were shot at different times with different glass and I don't have the patience tonight. Qualitatively, it appears the R5 and R6 have a little more real estate than the R to the right of the lens release button (we're talking a few mm only), but generally they look the same grip-wise, form-factor-wise, etc. I will say the R looks a bit more svelte / skinny front to back in the spaces between grip and mount, so it's possible both the R5 and R6 got slightly beefier front to back compared to the R.
I'll leave the interwebs to do their lining up and measurement craziness. I'm sure by release date this will be analyzed 17 ways to Sunday.

- A


----------



## vrpanorama.ca (Jul 7, 2020)

As I am on the market for buying a canon mirrorless for photography only my deciding factor will the dynamic range and noise level. Once I have an answer I will be able to chose either the canon R or the canon R6.


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2020)

sagtor said:


> I'm more interested in a sizecomparison of R6 vs. DSLRs like 6D or 7D




Considerably smaller, of course. I'd just look at the various EOS R comparisons out there as it appears the the R5 and R6 are very, very close to the R.

- A


----------



## CDR (Jul 7, 2020)

Aaah decisions, decisions! But at least with all the interest, it won't take long for a multitude of reviews/opinions to be posted. 

As an aging enthusiast wildlife photographer currently using an R and a 7D2 now need to decide whether just to get an R5 (costa plenty + new card / upgrade PC) and replace both bodies or rather add an R6 as another body (same cards no PC upgrade) as this will mean less lens switching and (hopefully) great low light performance but less cropability. Looking forward to understand the following specifically around the R6:
- Weather sealing (really for dust )
- Tracking FPS (VS the 5 in the R)
- EVF lag
- Low light noise
- I would imagine the lock button will stop the mode dial from physically moving, being bumped

I previously used a 1D X so 20 MP certainly doesn't worry me so long as u have long enough lenses to get closer to the subject. These are indeed interesting times - for now I just wait and watch ;-)


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> How is it we're on page 6 of this thread and we still don't have a superimposed mockup of the R6 on the R5 on the R?
> 
> C'mon, people.
> 
> - A


Because I used to do most of them and I just can’t be bothered now?


----------



## vjlex (Jul 7, 2020)

magarity said:


> My only real question is, should I take my chances selling my 6D to sketchy buyers on eBay or just trade in at the local camera shop for a lower price but no hassle?


I took the chance of selling my 5D4 online last week (advertised on Mercari and Rakuma; Japanese marketplace apps). Worked out pretty well, but feels weird to be DSLR-less for an unknown amount of time.


----------



## Danglin52 (Jul 7, 2020)

sagtor said:


> Except it is the case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know 3 top internationally known pros that would disagree with your statement that you can't sell large prints based on a 20mp sensor. All of them have thriving fine art print sales with options up to 40"x60" (or larger) from a large body of work (continuing to grow) created on 1dx ?? and D4's @ 20mp. Of course they like & shoot higher resolution cameras, but the 1d's and D4's are still their workhorse. To go extremely large, you need good light, great lenses, and proper technique. You also need a lab that knows what they are doing to pull every bit of resolution out of the file. If I want something really large, I always start with a section print to verify the file can go to a large size. On the last 40x60 I had printed, the section print showed the file could easily reach 40x60. An 20mp image shot with bad light, poor technique, mediocre lenses, or without perfect focus will certainly fall apart at larger sizes.


----------



## korbar (Jul 7, 2020)

I very recently sold my R in anticipation for these releases and I honestly didn't think the R6 would hit as many boxes as it does.
I hope it has the little shutter curtain thing that the R and R5 though, but these photos are making me think it doesn't.

It's going to be really interesting to see the final prices and any unknown information. I have a hard decision on my hands whether to get the R6 or R5.


----------



## masterpix (Jul 7, 2020)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> I was planning on just buying the R5 on Thursday...now it seems I'm going to be forced to get an R6 too. Here's hoping I don't get divorced.


You need to present them as a gift to your wife, which is a non-returnable one...


----------



## masterpix (Jul 7, 2020)

VICYASA said:


> EOS R > r6


In some aspect yes, in others not. Yes, the sensor is smaller, but it has more fps, better AF, non crop video. It is not a "who wins" game, it is a camera to suit certain market needs: those who want FF camara, but are not going to buy the R5 (the R5 will be twice as expensive). Entry level FF with benefits.

It is like saying that the 90D is not the 1Dx..


----------



## Danglin52 (Jul 7, 2020)

CDR said:


> Aaah decisions, decisions! But at least with all the interest, it won't take long for a multitude of reviews/opinions to be posted.
> 
> As an aging enthusiast wildlife photographer currently using an R and a 7D2 now need to decide whether just to get an R5 (costa plenty + new card / upgrade PC) and replace both bodies or rather add an R6 as another body (same cards no PC upgrade) as this will mean less lens switching and (hopefully) great low light performance but less cropability. Looking forward to understand the following specifically around the R6:
> - Weather sealing (really for dust )
> ...


I would add
- Buffer capacity


----------



## Joules (Jul 7, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> How many 20 FPS/20 MP full frame sensors can Canon have? Canon might say it's different from the 1DX Mark III for marketing purposes but, *If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it ain't no armadillo*.


It also shoots 5K like a duck. Although Canon may have also found a way to crank up the throughput in the 1DX II sensor to 11 and just repurpose that. Maybe even without the high detail low pass filter. Guess we'll see when the DR gets tested. Which I expect to be pretty soon, seems to me like plenty of people already have these bodies ready for review.


----------



## Joules (Jul 7, 2020)

mppix said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that this one replaces the 6D AND 7D?


It can't replace the 7D. It has a wildly different pixel density. The R5 on the other hand may be an alternative for some that are mostly concerned with improved speed rather than reach. If the EVF is up to the task.


----------



## canonnews (Jul 7, 2020)

sagtor said:


> No.
> Not sure how often this needs to be repeated. If you want to sell prints you can't work with 20 mp.
> You can print a little poster for yourself no problem, duh. Or for a wedding, sure.
> What you can't do is sell your photos at stores doing prints for you, unless you are ok with people only being able to buy 15 inch prints, which means wall art is already out of the question.



then you can't work with 24MP either.

Canon has 20, 26, 32, 45MP mirrorless full frame cameras. Are you actually complaining that one camera doesn't match a particular use case?

and I've printed far larger with 8MP so I have no clue where you are coming from. When you print larger, the observer distance also increases, which decrease the DPI necessary for the print. People forget and "Not sure how often this needs to be repeated" .. that observer distance is a huge factor in both printing and critically viewing their images.


----------



## tarjei99 (Jul 7, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Would be a great upgrade of the R. But i got used to work with 30mp and i cannot see myself going back to 20mp. Otherwise a great camera. I guess if they had put a 30mp sensor in the R6 it would be too close to the R5 ...



For many including me, 20Mpx is more than enough. I appreciate that the images will take up less space. That is good. The really important bit is the user interface. As long as that is as expected there is no problem.

20Mpx is likely to allow Canon to sell the Camera at a lower price since it is cheaper to make.


----------



## tarjei99 (Jul 7, 2020)

canonnews said:


> then you can't work with 24MP either.
> 
> Canon has 20, 26, 32, 45MP mirrorless full frame cameras. Are you actually complaining that one camera doesn't match a particular use case?
> 
> and I've printed far larger with 8MP so I have no clue where you are coming from. When you print larger, the observer distance also increases, which decrease the DPI necessary for the print. People forget and "Not sure how often this needs to be repeated" .. that observer distance is a huge factor in both printing and critically viewing their images.



I don't think you are supposed to confuse them with facts.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 7, 2020)

WriteLight said:


> Trying to find the original source...this was from dailycameranews.com but I'm sure they picked it up from somewhere, thought it was Canonrumors:
> 
> _*20mp full-frame CMOS sensor (not the same as the Canon 1DX Mark III) *_


Micro lenses would have to be arranged at a different angles for a shorter flange distance of R6. Hence it’s a “different” sensor.


----------



## tarjei99 (Jul 7, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> I have five months to convince my wife that this cameras is necessary. Not easy for someone who does not understand sensor performance in low light etc. Any tips would be appreciated.
> Ps. I ALWAYS immediately say yes when she wants to buy another item of clothing that isn't needed so I do have that in my favor



The niceness factor on the images will go way up.

If you have children or grand children, the images will be truly great.

You can save money by using your existing flash.


----------



## Kyo- (Jul 7, 2020)

This will make Sony delay their announcement again...I hope they price it at $2k or $2300 with battery grip.


----------



## Rule556 (Jul 7, 2020)

magarity said:


> My only real question is, should I take my chances selling my 6D to sketchy buyers on eBay or just trade in at the local camera shop for a lower price but no hassle?



I chose option B when I traded in my 6D on an R.


----------



## Jethro (Jul 7, 2020)

shunsai said:


> I took the chance of selling my 5D4 online last week (advertised on Mercari and Rakuma; Japanese marketplace apps). Worked out pretty well, but feels weird to be DSLR-less for an unknown amount of time.


Yes, it could be a while to actually get a new one in your hands!


----------



## Jethro (Jul 7, 2020)

Rule556 said:


> I chose option B when I traded in my 6D on an R.


Not all (in fact few in my experience) camera shops do trade ins - I wish more did.


----------



## drama (Jul 7, 2020)

So Now @Canon Rumors Guy has spoiled just about everything, thursday will be about the intangibles:

What do the shots look like?
How are Canon positioning these cameras?
Are there some functions we're unaware of?
What's the ISO sensitivity like?
How much?

Spec leaks are exciting, but I'm still interested in how Canon play this launch out. It's weird that they're doing youtube things - seems like more of a flex than normal.


----------



## dichterDichter (Jul 7, 2020)

i mean, a top display would have been nice and im curious if there will be a sensor curtain but for me as a hobby photographer who wants to play with FF, this cam is awesome. im switching back to canon.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jul 7, 2020)

TomR said:


> No one is going to miss that touch bar


I prefer a bar where you can have a decent drink


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jul 7, 2020)

20 MP! Looks like Canon really did it. Quite courageous in this times of the new Megapickles  race. I am really keen to see examples that show how the R6 performs in low light conditions.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jul 7, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I like the "megapickles" (thank you @slclick ) ...


Me too, I would vote it for the magic typo of the year in photography threads


----------



## .jan (Jul 7, 2020)

The thing that really jumps at me here is: no crippled ergonomics. They have to be serious about this thing and I can't wait to get my hands on it and see for myself.
More pixels is always nice obviously, but I have beautiful prints from 7D files on my walls so I guess I'd be able to manage.


----------



## navastronia (Jul 7, 2020)

1) As I predicted, the R6 line is in competition with the A7s line (rather than simply _continuing _the 6D line). 

2) If the 1DX Mk. III and the 5D Mk. IV are any indication, *the R6 won't perform much better in low light than the R5.* See: chart below, wherein there's barely 1/3 a stop of difference between the two, and only from ISO 50 to ISO 320.




3) If Canon releases a good vertical grip with the R6, what's to stop most shooters from using _it_ instead of the (eventual) R1?


----------



## Yasko (Jul 7, 2020)

TomR said:


> No one is going to miss that touch bar



the missing top screen is really bad in my eyes :-x
Still the speccs look great, very interested. But my 6D must do a while, although eye AF of a modern camera must be a must-have, it‘s what I miss the most via the eyepiece with the 6D.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 7, 2020)

navastronia said:


> 1) As I predicted, the R6 line is in competition with the A7s line (rather than simply _continuing _the 6D line).
> 
> 2) If the 1DX Mk. III and the 5D Mk. IV are any indication, *the R6 won't perform much better in low light than the R5.* See: chart below, wherein there's barely 1/3 a stop of difference between the two, and only from ISO 50 to ISO 320.
> 
> ...


Answer to 3.... Build quality. Focusing ability. Ability to transfer files super quick as a pro sports camera has to. Lots of things. But yes. he R6 will make a bloody good camera


----------



## dichterDichter (Jul 7, 2020)

navastronia said:


> 3) If Canon releases a good vertical grip with the R6, what's to stop most shooters from using _it_ instead of the (eventual) R1?



Shouldn't it be then something like an R20 with APS-C? (And some cheaper lenses?)


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jul 7, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> If you need more than 20 MP, then don't buy the camera. 20 MP is more than enough for weddings, virtually any professional shoot, and prints up to 30: x 20". If that sounds like only "rubes" will buy this camera, then you are an idiot and know nothing about photography.


It's simply about physics: tiny pixels = less light per pixel, less DR because of their small capacity, lower signal-to-noise ratio, and added to this you unfortunately need faster shutter speeds to freeze motion on the pixel level. You also lose more actively photon collecting area in total on the sensor, because each pixel adds some dead zones due to its electronics etc. Another fact based on physics is diffraction blur, so the optimum aperture is smaller with smaller pixels if you want to convert their full potential into an image. You lose then depth of field, which e.g. can be limiting in classic landscape/cityscape photography. This is no argument against high MP FF cameras: they CAN make sense, if you shoot with a lot of light and can live with a smaller DoF, then you have an additional advantage that you can crop massively if you need. In fact, I use a 7D2 for wildlife which equals a 45 MP FF sensor, but this crop camera really needs much light (ok, it is old technology, too). 

As a science journalist I am currently dealing with smartphone camera technology in depth and therefore I am extremely aware about the physical limits of small pixels. In smartphones, a lot of algorithms have to turn a huge loss of real image information into heavily post-processed images. One of the latest trends is adding artificial image content from data bases to sort of fill-in losses. Such tweaked images are not my personal idea about photography, I have to say.


----------



## navastronia (Jul 7, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Answer to 3.... Build quality. Focusing ability. Ability to transfer files super quick as a pro sports camera has to. Lots of things. But yes. he R6 will make a bloody good camera



Of course the 1D line has a rock solid build and better transfer capability, but mostly, in terms of pure specs and _most_ of the ergonomics, it competes extremely well. Still, I predict that the R6 won't take the battery grip. I don't know if Canon would want such an amazing camera on the market at 1/3 to 1/2 the price of their top-of-the-line without something seriously missing. I think that thing is the grip.


----------



## padam (Jul 7, 2020)

navastronia said:


> 1) As I predicted, the R6 line is in competition with the A7s line (rather than simply _continuing _the 6D line).
> 
> 2) If the 1DX Mk. III and the 5D Mk. IV are any indication, *the R6 won't perform much better in low light than the R5.* See: chart below, wherein there's barely 1/3 a stop of difference between the two, and only from ISO 50 to ISO 320.
> 
> 3) If Canon releases a good vertical grip with the R6, what's to stop most shooters from using _it_ instead of the (eventual) R1?


The A7s line is higher-end than the R6, over 3000$ definitely.
Maybe the naming will change to A9s now, we don't know, but the main target is the this class: A7III (to be updated A7IV), Z6 (to be updated Z6s), S1, etc. all 24MP

People need to rely on their eyes and look at actual test images (preferably ones that they make) instead of linking test charts which say nothing about how the images look, is the noise removable or it is too much, has the colour degraded too much, or is it still acceptable? How do the shadows look when pushed?

Very simple, it will probably be a new sensor with technology even pushed further, it is going to be more capable than the R6 and more durable, if it will use the same battery as the 1DX series, that means the mechanical shutter can reach 20fps instead of just 12fps.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jul 7, 2020)

dichterDichter said:


> Shouldn't it be then something like an R20 with APS-C? (And some cheaper lenses?)


This is one of the very interesting questions about the future of the RF vs. M system: will Canon keep the APS-C M system alive or will they come up with e.g. an R7 crop camera?


----------



## navastronia (Jul 7, 2020)

padam said:


> The A7s line is higher-end than the R6, over 3000$ definitely.
> Maybe the naming will change to A9s now, we don't know, but the main target is the this class: A7III (to be updated A7IV), Z6 (to be updated Z6s), S1, etc. all 24MP
> 
> People need to rely on their eyes and look at actual test images (preferably ones that they make) instead of linking test charts which say nothing about how the images look, is the noise removable or it is too much, has the colour degraded too much, or is it still acceptable? How do the shadows look when pushed?
> ...



1) I don't think this competes with the A7III, a camera that was released 2.5 years ago. The A7IV will have close to 30mp, if not higher. They're too different to be competing. The R6 shoots faster than the A7III, too, including in e-shutter mode. I think the A7IV will compete with the R Mk. II, if we get one, but honestly, I don't see Canon competing directly against the A7IV. Maybe the R5 does? We'll see what Sony announces.

2) People bring that point up time and again, and yet no one can produce images that demonstrate more difference than the results of the test charts. If there are test images that show a major noise difference, I'd like to see them, but I've never seen them posted around here.

3) I'm playing devil's advocate. My point is how insane the specs are, and how close they are to the 1DX-line, at 1/3 to 1/2 the cost.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jul 7, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> I have five months to convince my wife that this cameras is necessary. Not easy for someone who does not understand sensor performance in low light etc. Any tips would be appreciated.
> Ps. I ALWAYS immediately say yes when she wants to buy another item of clothing that isn't needed so I do have that in my favor


Tell her the new camera delivers better images of her in her new clothes  I am fortunate, I am married with a girl that already had her first camera when she was six and since then never stopped with photography. So I do not have to explain my investments in new gear...


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jul 7, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> 6D and partial 7d replacement. It matters A LOT about the EVF performance if you want it to be a dedicated wildlife camera. I will get it to COMPLIMENT my 7d2, not to replace it


Plus, EVF in wildlife really eats battery, with every glimpse through the tele lens if something is happen - for hours. So you have to carry much more replacement batteries with you.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 7, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Tell her the new camera delivers better images of her in her new clothes  I am fortunate, I am married with a girl that already had her first camera when she was six and since then never stopped with photography. So I do not have to explain my investments in new gear...


I like that one. I may just give it a go


----------



## Franklyok (Jul 7, 2020)

Regarding DR I am somewhat pessimistic, because 1d3 got Dxomark score, and it is clearly "behind the competition". So it is unlikely R6 to have 14+ stops of DR. I am predicting 13 dot something. 

May be new R6 ( and R5 ) have ISO bracketing.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jul 7, 2020)

Franklyok said:


> Regarding DR I am somewhat pessimistic, because 1d3 got Dxomark score, and it is clearly "behind the competition". So it is unlikely R6 to have 14+ stops of DR. I am predicting 13 dot something.



Here is an explanation why the DxO score of the 1D-X III is worse than the Mk II:

https://petapixel.com/2020/06/24/this-is-why-the-canon-1d-x-mark-iii-scored-so-badly-on-dxomark/

Canon simply shifted their focus on low-light performance, which makes sense for such an action camera. People shooting landscapes with low ISO settings are not exactly the target users of such a camera. This is a nice example how pure lab results can create misconceptions. 

Btw I always had the eery feeling that the DxO guys are secretly smirking when they managed again to create a stir on the internet about "bad" Canon technology...


----------



## dichterDichter (Jul 7, 2020)

The discussion is all about specs. One big differences in my eyes is how a camera works. as i made my switch to FF (from 20D) i tested a lot of cameras and systems and the difference is big in terms of Feeling and Usability (which will mainly be preference things). I hated how the Fujis and especialy Olympus M43 worked so i switched to sony. But Canon is somehow awesome. I dont know if its because i grew up with Contax and Canon but i like it very much. The camera was never in my way taking a picture (the Sony a7II sometimes is) - i hope you get what i mean - im not a native english speaker.


----------



## padam (Jul 7, 2020)

navastronia said:


> 1) I don't think this competes with the A7III, a camera that was released 2.5 years ago. The A7IV will have close to 30mp, if not higher. They're too different to be competing. The R6 shoots faster than the A7III, too, including in e-shutter mode. I think the A7IV will compete with the R Mk. II, if we get one, but honestly, I don't see Canon competing directly against the A7IV. Maybe the R5 does? We'll see what Sony announces.
> 
> 2) People bring that point up time and again, and yet no one can produce images that demonstrate more difference than the results of the test charts. If there are test images that show a major noise difference, I'd like to see them, but I've never seen them posted around here.
> 
> 3) I'm playing devil's advocate. My point is how insane the specs are, and how close they are to the 1DX-line, at 1/3 to 1/2 the cost.


No, the Nikon Z6s is already rumoured to have the same sensor with a new processor to have 4k60p video, A7III used a similar sensor so the A7IV is expected to be the same as well, and it will cost more than 2000$, so it will match the EOS R6.
Going to 30MP will not make sense from a video perspective in a budget model.

Each test is done in different conditions that's why I don't link them, I did my own with the EOS R and I know what ISO I am fine with. That's what everyone should do, these graphs are worth a look, maybe better than DXO, but they are really not something to 'follow by heart'.






Take a look at this for instance. The old 36MP Sony sensor in a Pentax DSLR body looks to have _better usable dynamic range_ than the brand spanking new 61MP A7RIV. Does that show anywhere in the graphs? No, absolutely not.

Yes that's why I don't expect the R1 to be a 1DX III mirrorless, it's going to evolve more.
By the way, we don't know the full specs, if it is a different sensor, than it might not do FF 4k 60p, it might do it cropped.


----------



## GoldWing (Jul 7, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> If you need more than 20 MP, then don't buy the camera. 20 MP is more than enough for weddings, virtually any professional shoot, and prints up to 30: x 20". If that sounds like only "rubes" will buy this camera, then you are an idiot and know nothing about photography.


I'm not hiring you. Nor anyone like you.


----------



## milkod2001 (Jul 7, 2020)

knight427 said:


> I'm still really hoping for $1999 body-only.


With those specs you will have to wait at least 12 months unless Sony or Nikon will drop similar product at much lower price.


----------



## koenkooi (Jul 7, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Here is an explanation why the DxO score of the 1D-X III is worse than the Mk II:
> 
> https://petapixel.com/2020/06/24/this-is-why-the-canon-1d-x-mark-iii-scored-so-badly-on-dxomark/
> 
> ...



DxO performed the tests using the e-shutter, so all files are 12-bit instead of 14-bit, which will skew the results.


----------



## GoldWing (Jul 7, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> If you need more than 20 MP, then don't buy the camera. 20 MP is more than enough for weddings, virtually any professional shoot, and prints up to 30: x 20". If that sounds like only "rubes" will buy this camera, then you are an idiot and know nothing about photography.


You would bring that "toy" into the studio? " Virtually any professional shoot" Do you even know what professional equipment is for fashion? You are the rube I'm talking about. You show up for work with toys and wonder why most photogs don't make it. Its skills and equipment. Buy a real camera. https://www.phaseone.com/en/Photography/IQ-Digital-Backs/IQ4


----------



## wockawocka (Jul 7, 2020)

For me, the R5 and R6 both have some form of annoyance. The R6 looks great but lacks a top-down screen or locking button for the dial. The R5 - no mode selection dial.

I don't understand why they made the top screens inverted and so damn hard to read. Sure , I can press the light-up button but it's tiny, not very bright and the buttons are too close to the light one and in a rush you can end up mashing other things.

With the dial they could have easily integrated a power switch into it and put it on the left instead.

It's like with the touch bar, it feels Canon tried to be different 'just because' when it wasn't necessary and in many cases caused a loss of fluidity in when shooting.

I am tied between which one I'd go for as in practise it's all about usability in stressful situations instead pf mp. I change my burst mode more than I do my shooting mode so a screen is useful but enough to miss it? No idea. I can imagine further iterations having further top-down changes. The 5D4 was practically perfect in that regard so I'm surprised they changed things around as they have.


----------



## navastronia (Jul 7, 2020)

dichterDichter said:


> The discussion is all about specs. One big differences in my eyes is how a camera works. as i made my switch to FF (from 20D) i tested a lot of cameras and systems and the difference is big in terms of Feeling and Usability (which will mainly be preference things). I hated how the Fujis and especialy Olympus M43 worked so i switched to sony. But Canon is somehow awesome. I dont know if its because i grew up with Contax and Canon but i like it very much. The camera was never in my way taking a picture (the Sony a7II sometimes is) - i hope you get what i mean - im not a native english speaker.



Your English is just fine. Happy to have you here!


----------



## Joules (Jul 7, 2020)

padam said:


> Take a look at this for instance. The old 36MP Sony sensor in a Pentax DSLR body looks to have _better usable dynamic range_ than the brand spanking new 61MP A7RIV.


Would you mind sharing a timestamp for when this is demonstrated?


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 7, 2020)

navastronia said:


> 1) As I predicted, the R6 line is in competition with the A7s line (rather than simply _continuing _the 6D line).
> 
> 2) If the 1DX Mk. III and the 5D Mk. IV are any indication, *the R6 won't perform much better in low light than the R5.* See: chart below, wherein there's barely 1/3 a stop of difference between the two, and only from ISO 50 to ISO 320.
> 
> ...



in short: A lesser quality of build and level of weather resistance.


----------



## Holland (Jul 7, 2020)

rwvaughn said:


> Was there ever solid confirmation that the R6 was a 20mp body? Or, did someone claim it was and everyone ran with that?


I would like the R6 to have a bit higher resolution sensor than the 20Mp that is now predicted; I'm primarily taking pictures and not doing video stuff a lot so R5 is very nice and has a nice high resolution, but I don't really need the fancy video specs but I will need to pay for them. Perhaps 5D mk V will be nice as well (when it comes... ;-) )


----------



## padam (Jul 7, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> For me, the R5 and R6 both have some form of annoyance. The R6 looks great but lacks a top-down screen or locking button for the dial. The R5 - no mode selection dial.
> 
> I don't understand why they made the top screens inverted and so damn hard to read. Sure , Ican press the light-up button but it's tiny, not very bright and the buttons are too close to the light one and in a rush you can end up mashing other things.
> 
> ...


At this point, all is a compromise, not everyone wants a dial on the left size or a bigger top LCD to take even more space away from other things. I used to think it was useless, but I do find it useful know and don't have any problems with visibility, I don't even need it to light up so I just changed that to push the rear LCD to max. brightness, so that I can see it much better in the daytime.

As far as the touch bar goes, I think it was put in there, because it was designed to be a lower-end model than the R5 or R6, so they gave it inferior controls (even though the base is there in terms of body design). Sad, but probably true.

To do the 5D IV ergonomics, they need the same amount of space, which they don't have but the cameras have also gotten 'smarter' so they need to change things further, and inevitably not everyone will be happy with that.


Joules said:


> Would you mind sharing a timestamp for when this is demonstrated?


The whole video is about looking at files taken with both cameras, there are many others in the channel including other Sony cameras, I did own two of them and the files do behave like that, I am just surprised how much better the Pentax does in comparison, it seems like a great camera that no one actually cares about. Using a big body to house the electronics may have the advantage of generating less noise, so the RAW files will not be as "cooked" as with mirrorless cameras (he also looks at the original A7R against the K1, similar sensor but quite different results)


----------



## freejay (Jul 7, 2020)

Jimmy said:


> No, but 24-105 f/4 - 7.1 I do.


They also have a Canon RF 24-105mm F4L IS USM...


----------



## navastronia (Jul 7, 2020)

padam said:


> Each test is done in different conditions that's why I don't link them, I did my own with the EOS R and I know what ISO I am fine with. That's what everyone should do, these graphs are worth a look, maybe better than DXO, but they are really not something to 'follow by heart'.
> 
> Take a look at this for instance. The old 36MP Sony sensor in a Pentax DSLR body looks to have _better usable dynamic range_ than the brand spanking new 61MP A7RIV. Does that show anywhere in the graphs? No, absolutely not.



I appreciate the video you linked. What it shows is more a comparison of how differently those 2 cameras perform in terms of raising an image several stops, which isn't something most people do all that often. I don't think it illustrates noise patterns of 2 cameras at equivalent ISOs in normally exposed images, which is what I'm interested in. Here's an image comparison done in the same conditions. The noise in the 5D mk. IV may appear _slightly_ more colorful, but there's no great difference in these pictures, which is exactly what the data I posted earlier shows.




I think the evidence demonstrates that idea that the 1DX-line delivers better high ISO performance than the 5D-line is basically a superstition. Fortunately for us, it means for low light work, we can all get by with cheaper cameras


----------



## navastronia (Jul 7, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> You would bring that "toy" into the studio? " Virtually any professional shoot" Do you even know what professional equipment is for fashion? You are the rube I'm talking about. You show up for work with toys and wonder why most photogs don't make it. Its skills and equipment. Buy a real camera. https://www.phaseone.com/en/Photography/IQ-Digital-Backs/IQ4



Why don't you post some of your professional work and show us how the pros really do it? I'd love to see.


----------



## milkod2001 (Jul 7, 2020)

20MP will leave very small room for cropping but at the same time it will give you excellent high ISO performance. Similar to 1Dx3 i suspect JPGs straight from camera at ISO 10 000 be perfectly usable which is a dream for wedding/event photographer shooting in low light very often.

Most people even pros are shooting for web these days where 20MP is more than enough. For prints: i got excellent 48''prints from my first 8MP Canon 350D so 20MP is still plenty unless you really go with extremely large prints which you don't.

Besides if anyone really need more MP there will be R5 available.

Personally im more interested in video performance of R6 though. Currently using for video Sony A7III with Batis 25 in Super 35 4k24p mode. Need 4k60p. R6 with 35 1.8 could be decent replacement. If Sony(old Canon) won't bother to make A74 in next 6 months and give it 4k60p i think Canon R6 be my new video camera for 2021.


----------



## navastronia (Jul 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> in short: A lesser quality of build and level of weather resistance.



I know, I know . . . I'm playing devil's advocate here


----------



## freejay (Jul 7, 2020)

dwarven said:


> Can't wait for a 7D mirrorless replacement.


Take the R5 and switch it to crop mode: There you go. Apart from the price of course...


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 7, 2020)

dichterDichter said:


> The discussion is all about specs. One big differences in my eyes is how a camera works. as i made my switch to FF (from 20D) i tested a lot of cameras and systems and the difference is big in terms of Feeling and Usability (which will mainly be preference things). I hated how the Fujis and especialy Olympus M43 worked so i switched to sony. But Canon is somehow awesome. I dont know if its because i grew up with Contax and Canon but i like it very much. The camera was never in my way taking a picture (the Sony a7II sometimes is) - i hope you get what i mean - im not a native english speaker.


That makes perfect sense. Many of us who shoot canon do so because of the ergonomics and intuitive usability of it. No other brand can match them although Nikon come close. Many of us would rather use a sony as a doorstop than a camera because they really are horrible to hold onto(in my personal opinion)


----------



## milkod2001 (Jul 7, 2020)

Kyo- said:


> This will make Sony delay their announcement again...I hope they price it at $2k or $2300 with battery grip.


Sony is going to stick head in the sand and pretend R5/R6 don't exist .So far all we know about new Sony A7S3 is that it will have much better EVF and it should do 6k60p/4k120p. It should be video centric camera to go against Panasonic S1H than R5/R6. Price wise under $4k.

$2k or $2300 should be for A74 nobody knows when coming...


----------



## padam (Jul 7, 2020)

navastronia said:


> I think the evidence demonstrates that idea that the 1DX-line delivers better high ISO performance than the 5D-line is basically a superstition. Fortunately for us, it means for low light work, we can all get by with cheaper cameras


Sorry, but I don't agree, here is someone using the 5D IV for ages, so I think his opinion is credible.








Canon 1D X Mark II - A High ISO King!


Regular readers will know that these days my camera of choice is the Canon 5D Mark IV because I love its versatility. It's not as fast as the 1-Series




dancarrphotography.com





I only tried the original 1DX for a short time, but it produced a bit cleaner files than the EOS R and I preferred how the colours looked as well.

RAW files are meant to be processed in the end (including heavily pushing them if necessary, that's what dynamic range is for, isn't it), so actual photographers can make more meaningful comparisons.
Of course some may say the 1DX II has no advantage according to their tests, that's fine, everybody should draw his or her own conclusions without trying to patronise others by claming "this is so much better than that" etc. that's what most people do on the internet instead of just stating their humble opinion, which might directly oppose with others so in the end it only matters which "camp" has more supporting members.


----------



## Th0msky (Jul 7, 2020)

Can people stop mocking about the 20 ‘only’ MP. 
looking at the specs, i think they really tend to go for a video camera on the R6, like the sony a7 III.
i only see photographers crying about it when there’s already a variaty of choices to chooses from with higher MP.
20MP is more than enough for video. 45MP could even be Disadvatagerous.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Jul 7, 2020)

Th0msky said:


> Can people stop mocking about the 20 ‘only’ MP.
> looking at the specs, i think they really tend to go for a video camera on the R6, like the sony a7 III.
> i only see photographers crying about it when there’s already a variaty of choices to chooses from with higher MP.
> 20MP is more than enough for video. 45MP could even be Disadvatagerous.



20MP is more than enough for photography too. I have yet to ever feel limited by the 18-22 MP range.


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Jul 7, 2020)

bergstrom said:


> I have to google what zebras are. The 20mp is a joke though.


Why is it a joke?


----------



## Cat_Interceptor (Jul 7, 2020)

20MP is absolutly brilliant for almost every single person here and most pros. If you need more you aint looking at anything below 50MP are you?

TBH this does seem like a almost 7Dmk II replacement. Just lacking the waterproofing and bulletproof body - I think Canon are on an absolute winner and gonna sell a LOT with a lot of glass. That 800 DO I reckon is looking appealing.....


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Jul 7, 2020)

sagtor said:


> Except it is the case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you’re a true professional and sell wall art then you would know that this camera isn’t the tool for you. 

All this moaning about the 20mp really does my head in. This camera is made for situation where 20mp is adequate. If 20mp is not enough, then you need a different camera. Like the other one Canon is releasing.

Duh.


----------



## londonxt (Jul 7, 2020)

sagtor said:


> That's good for you. I take it you sell prints online and have a magic way to upres them to be able to sell them? Because I don't. I'm not talking about personal prints. I don't care about 20 more mp for a picture on my wall. Print services do.



Oh right so now you claim to make money from photography... why not wait 2 days for the R5 then instead of spamming the board of a camera that doesnt fit your specific professional requirements.


----------



## Franklyok (Jul 7, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Here is an explanation why the DxO score of the 1D-X III is worse than the Mk II:
> 
> https://petapixel.com/2020/06/24/this-is-why-the-canon-1d-x-mark-iii-scored-so-badly-on-dxomark/
> 
> ...



I do not get it, how low light and hi DR exclude each other. In the past these have mutually gone up. Both depend on processor speed which extracts data out of sensor. I expect DR and ISO performance below 1dx3, which has dual digic, 8 and 10. R6 will have only one digic 10.

This is unfortunate, if dxomark does unfair comparing, sony biased.


----------



## jayphotoworks (Jul 7, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> For me, the R5 and R6 both have some form of annoyance. The R6 looks great but lacks a top-down screen or locking button for the dial. The R5 - no mode selection dial.
> 
> I don't understand why they made the top screens inverted and so damn hard to read. Sure , Ican press the light-up button but it's tiny, not very bright and the buttons are too close to the light one and in a rush you can end up mashing other things.
> 
> ...



To be fair, not having a mode dial simply means it is more 1D than 5D and the 1D has no issues with fluidity when shooting, but not having a locking button for the model dial might be more of an issue. I don't have a locking button on my exp.comp dial on my Sony bodies and every time it goes to the side on my dual carrier or in a backpack when moving to a new location, sometimes the dial is at +1 or -1 and it's now muscle memory for me to check it every single time.


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 7, 2020)

Is a top down screen really that big a deal? Maybe it is. I just don't see it as such especially since the back screen is always there. Wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.


----------



## drama (Jul 7, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Is a top down screen really that big a deal? Maybe it is. I just don't see it as such especially since the back screen is always there. Wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.



No, it's not. Neither is 20MPX. This is fans with GAS who have over-excited themselves now crashing and needing to normalise their feelings. It will sell by the bucketload. Unless you're shooting for billboards (remember them?) modern day 20mpx sensors are fine for a massive section of the market. Or hey! Maybe Canon are dumb and users on a spoilers forum are much smarter?


----------



## koenkooi (Jul 7, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Is a top down screen really that big a deal? Maybe it is. I just don't see it as such especially since the back screen is always there. Wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.



I rarely used it on my 7D, I don't miss it on the RP, the EVF has all the info I need.


----------



## bbb34 (Jul 7, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> 20MP is more than enough for photography too. I have yet to ever feel limited by the 18-22 MP range.



There is right, there is enough, there is abundance, and there is too much. 

"More than enough" doesn't make any sense, because 'enough' already means: what is needed or more.


----------



## Cat_Interceptor (Jul 7, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Is a top down screen really that big a deal? Maybe it is. I just don't see it as such especially since the back screen is always there. Wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.



TBH I just dont notice when using my M6 II. EVF's have far more info anyway.


----------



## milkod2001 (Jul 7, 2020)

drama said:


> No, it's not. Neither is 20MPX. This is fans with GAS who have over-excited themselves now crashing and needing to normalise their feelings. It will sell by the bucketload. Unless you're shooting for billboards (remember them?) modern day 20mpx sensors are fine for a massive section of the market. Or hey! Maybe Canon are dumb and users on a spoilers forum are much smarter?


But of course 20MP is enough. It does feel though like going backwards if upgrading from 5-7 years older camera which already has more MP. It's not technical/practical issue ,more psychological effect of thinking about getting inferior product because it has less MP so it must be worse than what I already have .


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 7, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> If you’re a true professional and sell wall art then you would know that this camera isn’t the tool for you.
> 
> All this moaning about the 20mp really does my head in. This camera is made for situation where 20mp is adequate. If 20mp is not enough, then you need a different camera. Like the other one Canon is releasing.
> 
> Duh.


And it depends on what your definition of 'wall art' is. Sure. If you are printing massive prints then it wont do. But most prints are NOT massive and 20mo is more than enough to print at A# size or eben somewhat larger


----------



## Twinix (Jul 7, 2020)

drama said:


> So Now @Canon Rumors Guy has spoiled just about everything, thursday will be about the intangibles:
> 
> What do the shots look like?
> How are Canon positioning these cameras?
> ...


Thursday will be dedicated to watching the stream, and after that infomercials, reviews, tests, streams discussing it etc. And seeing the final price, calculating rig costs etc for fun.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jul 7, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> 20MP is not "fine". Its low resolution and unless applied to specific 1DXII or III its now outdated. Canon must have a ton of low resolution 20MP sensors left and will sell them to rubes.


More months of lockdown don't improve everybody's outlook, including mine. Still, we take a deep breath and carry on.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jul 7, 2020)

canonnews said:


> then you can't work with 24MP either.
> 
> Canon has 20, 26, 32, 45MP mirrorless full frame cameras. Are you actually complaining that one camera doesn't match a particular use case?
> 
> and I've printed far larger with 8MP so I have no clue where you are coming from. When you print larger, the observer distance also increases, which decrease the DPI necessary for the print. People forget and "Not sure how often this needs to be repeated" .. that observer distance is a huge factor in both printing and critically viewing their images.


Being able to crop tightly enough for iris recognition on a bystander a mile away is the goal. You know, like spy satellites!


----------



## koenkooi (Jul 7, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Being able to crop tightly enough for facial hair on a bystander a mile away is the goal. You know, like spy satellites!



ENHANCE!


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 7, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> You would bring that "toy" into the studio? " Virtually any professional shoot" Do you even know what professional equipment is for fashion? You are the rube I'm talking about. You show up for work with toys and wonder why most photogs don't make it. Its skills and equipment. Buy a real camera. https://www.phaseone.com/en/Photography/IQ-Digital-Backs/IQ4



You make absolutely no sense at all, I do shoot fashion among many other things and my work has been published in multiple magazines...yes I shoot with a 5DIV which has 30MP but it is way overkill, I could just as easily have created the exact same images with 20MP. By the time you get done setting up the footage for the magazine layout you are rarely using more than 8MP anyway. 

I also have my work hanging on 6 story tall buildings in the downtown area where I live to showcase high rise luxury buildings that are about to be built..guess what they were shot with, a 20MP drone camera. For one project they created an entire artistic gallery to pre-sell $20M USD+ luxury condos for rich buyers, the entire gallery was covered in large highly detailed wall prints.....once again all shot with a tiny 20MP drone camera with a 1" sensor.

I'm not defending Canon's choice of sensor, and I think I know exactly why they did it...to save on costs by reusing an already amazing sensor from the 1DXIII while also providing the perfect sensor size for high quality video; I also believe there are scenarios where 20MP is not sufficient, mainly scenarios where you need to do a lot of cropping and recomposing in post to make up for a bad seating position or composition that you could not control like at fashion shows, for fashion shows I've needed every MP from my 5DIV at times because the organizers placed us in terrible positions and we had to make it work anyway; but calling a fantastic camera body with a 1DXIII sensor a toy just makes you look really ignorant.


----------



## degos (Jul 7, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> TBH this does seem like a almost 7Dmk II replacement.



What? No not even in the same league other than FPS.

The 7D2 is so popular because of its speed, build and pixel density. It puts 18MP onto the area that the R6 puts 9.

In response the R6 brings... Speed. One out of three ain't good.

It's not about cropping on facial hair, it's about pixels on duck when even big whites with TC don't fill the frame. This isn't fashion photography where you can take a step nearer the subject to full the frame.


----------



## ildyria (Jul 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> View attachment 191173


Looks like the R6 will be to the R5 what the RP will be to the R: It feels like to me that the curtains will not drop down when powered off.


----------



## Memirsbrunnr (Jul 7, 2020)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> I was planning on just buying the R5 on Thursday...now it seems I'm going to be forced to get an R6 too. Here's hoping I don't get divorced.


Seems you might get to you out for a more compliant wife then


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Jul 7, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> And it depends on what your definition of 'wall art' is. Sure. If you are printing massive prints then it wont do. But most prints are NOT massive and 20mo is more than enough to print at A# size or eben somewhat larger


Definitely. The vast majority of big prints are supposed to be viewed from a distance anyway. 20mp is plenty. 

I really question the skills of photographers who moan about megapixels. Same as if you saw a builder trying to screw in a 6 inch coach bolt with mini screwdriver. Wrong tool.


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 7, 2020)

CanoKnight said:


> Four years ago before my divorce from Canon I would have been begging Canon to take my money for this. But today I have such a wonderful camera in the Lumix S1, my reaction is eh.. good for Canon. They are very late to the game but better late than never. I will keep my fantastic S1. Can I see myself ever getting this ? I don't know. The video quality won't be on par with the S1 but it will have decent AF-C. So maybe one day when the price has dropped sufficiently and I am in a need of a B-cam with good AF-C I may consider. But I don't see that happening anytime soon. Plus my S1 is utterly fantastic.



I came very close to divorcing Canon myself because I really needed video features that Canon refused to provide. I almost gave up hope when the EOS R was released with 1 card slot and that awful function bar. But my GH5 is just so good that it kept me from filing the Canon divorce papers and gave me time to wait for Canon to get their act together. 

I love everything Panasonic did with the S1 and S1H but I just couldn't bring myself to settle for their terrible AF or having to buy all new lenses, also color grading GH5 video footage made me hesitate since what I can get right out of camera with Canon is amazing.

As much as I love the idea of the S1 the only part of your post that I don't agree with is the video quality. I think the R6 video quality will at a minimum be on par with the S1 and more than likely it will be much better considering it will use Canon's color science and will output 4:2:2 10 bit and use CLOG (hopefully CLOG3), that combined with Canon's AF will result in pretty incredible video quality and more keeper footage thanks to their DPAF AF. As a matter of a fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the R6's video quality isn't on par or better than the S1H which is insane considering the fact that the R5 is another step up.


----------



## Mark3794 (Jul 7, 2020)

Where are all the people that few years ago literally begged Canon to give them a low megapixel high iso camera?


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Jul 7, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> You make absolutely no sense at all, I do shoot fashion among many other things and my work has been published in multiple magazines...yes I shoot with a 5DIV which has 30MP but it is way overkill, I could just as easily have created the exact same images with 20MP. By the time you get done setting up the footage for the magazine layout you are rarely using more than 8MP anyway.
> 
> I also have my work hanging on 6 story tall buildings in the downtown area where I live to showcase high rise luxury buildings that are about to be built..guess what they were shot with, a 20MP drone camera. For one project they created an entire artistic gallery to pre-sell $20M USD+ luxury condos for rich buyers, the entire gallery was covered in large highly detailed wall prints.....once again all shot with a tiny 20MP drone camera with a 1" sensor.
> 
> I'm not defending Canon's choice of sensor, and I think I know exactly why they did it...to save on costs by reusing an already amazing sensor from the 1DXIII while also providing the perfect sensor size for high quality video; I also believe there are scenarios where 20MP is not sufficient, mainly scenarios where you need to do a lot of cropping and recomposing in post to make up for a bad seating position or composition that you could not control like at fashion shows, for fashion shows I've needed every MP from my 5DIV at times because the organizers placed us in terrible positions and we had to make it work anyway; but calling a fantastic camera body with a 1DXIII sensor a toy just makes you look really ignorant.



Agreed! I know many fashion photographers that were previously using 40-50mp hassleblad cameras who then switched to the 1dx line of cameras with 20mp sensors. With fashion in particular a great deal of the work being done is for digital these days... there really isn't a need for a huge number of megapixels. Who is to say what is a 'real' camera or a 'toy'. What a load of crap!


----------



## martin_ (Jul 7, 2020)

2499 launch price - 2299 September / October. Place your bets! hahaha


----------



## padam (Jul 7, 2020)

martin_ said:


> 2499 launch price - 2299 September / October. Place your bets! hahaha


With this type of feature set, it is much less likely to see a quick price drop (compared to the EOS R where this happened), the A7III kept a steady price for quite a long time as well.


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 7, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Agreed! I know many fashion photographers that were previously using 40-50mp hassleblad cameras who then switched to the 1dx line of cameras with 20mp sensors. With fashion in particular a great deal of the work being done is for digital these days... there really isn't a need for a huge number of megapixels. Who is to say what is a 'real' camera or a 'toy'. What a load of crap!



Hasselblad and other medium format camera makers sold the dream that bigger is better and for a long time photographers were buying it; thinking their images would be better as well. But the reality is that everything has done a complete 180 thanks to cell phones; almost everything is digital now and if it's not properly viewable on a tiny cell phone screen its not going to get much visibility. Even before cell phones, if you created a composition with an attractive woman, great hair and makeup, perfect lighting, and interesting scenery no one would care what camera captured the moment. These days you don't even have to do that, cell phone pics of well known "influencers' get seen by millions while masterpieces created by the top photographers in the world will be lucky to be viewed by thousands.

I still have to take a deep breath sometimes as I crop some of my large landscapes down to cell phone optimized ratios; I feel like the appreciation of truly large prints and majestic landscapes is a dying breed. It's almost pointless now to even think about stitching together a panorama, since you know no one will ever see it in its full resolution form. Which is why I watch closely to see people's reasons for saying 20MP isn't enough and I rarely agree unless cropping and recomposing is the reason why.


----------



## sagtor (Jul 7, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Definitely. The vast majority of big prints are supposed to be viewed from a distance anyway. 20mp is plenty.
> 
> I really question the skills of photographers who moan about megapixels. Same as if you saw a builder trying to screw in a 6 inch coach bolt with mini screwdriver. Wrong tool.


That's nice. Now tell that to the services offering prints for sale. They don't let you. I don't know how many million times I have to repeat myself. This isn't about printing your own poster at your fine art print store. This is about printing for sale. Not for gigs, not for yourself. You can't print anything larger than 15 inch with 20mp. It won't be accepted. It's called quality standards. It may be enough for you. It's not for most print services. 15-16 inches is the most you can do with 20mp. And that's nothing.


----------



## degos (Jul 7, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> If 20mp is not enough, then you need a different camera. Like the other one Canon is releasing.
> 
> Duh.



Where's the R6S with 45MP and no video modes? 

Oh you mean the R5; then I'd have to pay for expensive trinkets like 8K video that are of ZERO use to me. It's like trying to buy a car in the 90s when the only way to get metallic paint was to buy the Luxe pack with $3000 of accessories.

Canon just can't shake the mindset that the cheaper camera has to be inferior across all specs, rather than providing genuine options and letting the market show its preference.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 7, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> It's simply about physics: tiny pixels = less light per pixel, less DR because of their small capacity, lower signal-to-noise ratio, and added to this you unfortunately need faster shutter speeds to freeze motion on the pixel level. You also lose more actively photon collecting area in total on the sensor, because each pixel adds some dead zones due to its electronics etc. Another fact based on physics is diffraction blur, so the optimum aperture is smaller with smaller pixels if you want to convert their full potential into an image. You lose then depth of field, which e.g. can be limiting in classic landscape/cityscape photography. This is no argument against high MP FF cameras: they CAN make sense, if you shoot with a lot of light and can live with a smaller DoF, then you have an additional advantage that you can crop massively if you need. In fact, I use a 7D2 for wildlife which equals a 45 MP FF sensor, but this crop camera really needs much light (ok, it is old technology, too).
> 
> As a science journalist I am currently dealing with smartphone camera technology in depth and therefore I am extremely aware about the physical limits of small pixels. In smartphones, a lot of algorithms have to turn a huge loss of real image information into heavily post-processed images. One of the latest trends is adding artificial image content from data bases to sort of fill-in losses. Such tweaked images are not my personal idea about photography, I have to say.



Is it not the case that for sensors of the same generation, of the same physical size but different resolutions, that outputting still images to the same dimensions (i.e. printing or viewing the whole image at the same size), none of the disadvantages of smaller pixels are visible? I.e. the issues with diffraction, motion blur, etc are only greater with a higher resolution sensor when viewing 100% because you are magnifying them more? I take your point about losing a little bit of light gathering area by subdividing the sensor more but in practice that seems not to make a noticeable difference. A lot of people seem to cling to the belief that 'lower res = better high ISO' but there's precious little evidence of it, for stills.

With regard to phone cameras, surely the big issue is that the sensors are very much smaller, so they gather much less light overall.


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Jul 7, 2020)

sagtor said:


> That's nice. Now tell that to the services offering prints for sale. They don't let you. I don't know how many million times I have to repeat myself. This isn't about printing your own poster at your fine art print store. This is about printing for sale. Not for gigs, not for yourself. You can't print anything larger than 15 inch with 20mp. It won't be accepted. It's called quality standards. It may be enough for you. It's not for most print services. 15-16 inches is the most you can do with 20mp. And that's nothing.



Which bring me back to my original point.

If you’re that much of a professional then you should absolutely know, without any hesitation that this camera IS THE WRONG TOOL FOR THE JOB.

I wouldn’t take a 50mm lens for bird photography. So why would you take a 20mp body for large print, fine detail work..?


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Jul 7, 2020)

degos said:


> But then I'd have to pay for expensive trinkets like 8K video that are of ZERO use to me.
> 
> I don't understand why Canon have to aggressively delineate their cameras so much. I can't afford an R5 so I looked at the R6, but Canon's decision to restrict it to 20MP means I'm not going to buy it and hence not buy any RF lenses in the near future.
> 
> So instead of protecting the R5 from being cannibalised they actually lost a sale, due to marketing's insistence on the R6 being inferior. I'll just keep on plodding with a pair of 1DX for another few years.



It’s not restricted to 20mp. It’s sensor has 20mp. 

8k and high resolution go hand in hand. Can you imagine the shit storm people would kick up if Canon released a 50mp body with no 8k..? 

If you can’t afford an R5, then you can’t afford to take the pictures you want to. Simple as that. I can’t afford a 600mm f4, doesn’t mean I moan that a 100-400mm doesn’t have more reach..


----------



## scyrene (Jul 7, 2020)

bbb34 said:


> There is right, there is enough, there is abundance, and there is too much.
> 
> "More than enough" doesn't make any sense, because 'enough' already means: what is needed or more.



Um, 'more than enough' is a common English expression and has been for a long time. It makes sense in the contexts in which it is used


----------



## Mike9129 (Jul 7, 2020)

degos said:


> But then I'd have to pay for expensive trinkets like 8K video that are of ZERO use to me. It's like trying to buy a car in the 90s when the only way to get metallic paint was to buy the Luxe pack with $3000 of accessories.
> 
> Canon just can't shake the mindset that the cheaper camera has to be inferior across all specs, rather than providing genuine options and letting the market show its preference.



Theres is the 5ds/5dsr if thats a massive concern?

I appreciate that
1) 20mp is good enough for most things
2) its not suitable for absolutely everything

with these two things in mind, there is a whole range of cameras to suit everyone's needs. Maybe its just the R6 isn't the one for you?


----------



## scyrene (Jul 7, 2020)

degos said:


> Canon just can't shake the mindset that the cheaper camera has to be inferior across all specs, rather than providing genuine options and letting the market show its preference.



Yes, the most succesful camera company of the 21st century definitely doesn't understand the market as well as you, Random Internet Person.


----------



## Th0msky (Jul 7, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> The negatives about the R6 are not that big of a deal to me.
> 
> No top LCD/Dial. I can live with the fixed mode dial, but I really like the implementation in the EOS R. I think the only tradeoff is the slight change in ergonomics. I've got the EOS R/R5 method ingrained by now... so will just have to remember to twist this separate mode dial on the R6.
> Inferior Bluetooth radio. Don't think I use the smartphone app enough for this to bother me. If the R5 turns out to be much more usable than we are used to, I might change my mind on this.
> ...


finally someone who really understands what is important in this camera and where canon also focusses on (imo)
For a videographer myself this video offers so much for such a good price.


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2020)

navastronia said:


> 3) If Canon releases a good vertical grip with the R6, what's to stop most shooters from using _it_ instead of the (eventual) R1?




...because there are a dozen reasons why a 1-series poops all over a 6-series camera.

But if you want a specific one, I'm guessing that for stills the R6's AF and 20 fps mode will not have many bells and whistles attached to it. Similarly for video, one imagines the R1 will dunk on the R6 in some significant way.

- A


----------



## AccipiterQ (Jul 7, 2020)

Zebras?


----------



## bbb34 (Jul 7, 2020)

scyrene said:


> Um, 'more than enough' is a common English expression and has been for a long time. It makes sense in the contexts in which it is used



That is true, but English has to offer more than enough beautiful words that are shorter and more distinct than this expression. I am more than enough fed up with people using it more than enough.


----------



## Joules (Jul 7, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> Zebras?


Striped donkeys


----------



## Sporgon (Jul 7, 2020)

Skux said:


> 20mp is good enough for professional wedding, press, and sports photographers, and big enough to print at 16x12 inches at over 300dpi.
> 
> I find it funny that people apparently "need" 30+ megapixels when most of their workflow ends with posts on social media.


Because it's what modern digital photography has become to many people, looking at images at 100% on a computer screen and marvelling at the detail; literally not seeing the whole picture, a sort of modern day inversion of the old saying "never mind the quality feel the width". 

You're quite right in that 20mp is more than enough to create really quite large pictures, certainly larger than most people will ever produce, and even if you did you run into the issue of viewing distance, where you can't see the extra detail, if there is any anyway, without putting your nose up against the print. Let's face it, 20 mp is actually quite high resolution anyway. 

Greater mp is useful for severe cropping and still being able to produce huge output sizes. Other than that it's back to the 100% viewing on computer. 

I think the R6 is pretty attractive at 20mp. And who's going to need to crop in with the new 800/11 lenses ?


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 7, 2020)

sagtor said:


> That's nice. Now tell that to the services offering prints for sale. They don't let you. I don't know how many million times I have to repeat myself. This isn't about printing your own poster at your fine art print store. This is about printing for sale. Not for gigs, not for yourself. You can't print anything larger than 15 inch with 20mp. It won't be accepted. It's called quality standards. It may be enough for you. It's not for most print services. 15-16 inches is the most you can do with 20mp. And that's nothing.



You are talking about a niche scenario for which there are plenty of other camera bodies to choose from. I don't understand your rants about a camera that will meet the needs of probably 95% of camera users; if you are in the remaining 5% then just don't buy it. There are many camera bodies that I knew didn't fit the use cases that I feel I will encounter so I didn't buy them, I also didn't go sign up on their forums and rant about how they did not meet my needs.

If you are actually creating that many large format fine detail prints on a regular basis then clearly this is the wrong camera body for you. If you are only very rarely creating such works of art then this camera could possibly still be for you and you could simply rent a higher MP body when projects that required that level of detail came along. 

The 5DS/R is dirt cheap right now, renting is an option, the R5 is 45MP, the S1R is 48MP....get whatever tool you feel will meet your needs...but ranting about tools that don't make no sense at all.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 7, 2020)

Franklyok said:


> I do not get it, how low light and hi DR exclude each other. In the past these have mutually gone up. Both depend on processor speed which extracts data out of sensor.



Neither depends on the processor speed, except for the edge cases with high speed shooting.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jul 7, 2020)

scyrene said:


> Is it not the case that for sensors of the same generation, of the same physical size but different resolutions, that outputting still images to the same dimensions (i.e. printing or viewing the whole image at the same size), none of the disadvantages of smaller pixels are visible? I.e. the issues with diffraction, motion blur, etc are only greater with a higher resolution sensor when viewing 100% because you are magnifying them more? I take your point about losing a little bit of light gathering area by subdividing the sensor more but in practice that seems not to make a noticeable difference. A lot of people seem to cling to the belief that 'lower res = better high ISO' but there's precious little evidence of it, for stills.
> 
> With regard to phone cameras, surely the big issue is that the sensors are very much smaller, so they gather much less light overall.


It is simply a trade-off: you can only utilize the potential of high MP sensors if you can get the image sharp and not too noisy on the pixel level. Otherwise you get about the same results like with a sensor with less pixels, smaller files and less energy consumption of you computer (turned mostly into heat). I think this "otherwise" is quite often the case when people shoot with their high MP cameras, in particular for posting on Instagram  But MP count IS a marketing tool, that's why you can get smartphones with stellar MP numbers. So I am amazed that Canon risks something with the R6. Question is whether rationality is a good selling point, in particular in these crazy times


----------



## RickWagoner (Jul 7, 2020)

degos said:


> What? No not even in the same league other than FPS.
> 
> The 7D2 is so popular because of its speed, build and pixel density. It puts 18MP onto the area that the R6 puts 9.
> 
> ...



99.8% of 7d2 buyers never needed the true build quality of the 7D2 though, hell a 70-90D can withstand most of what the common 7d2 owner throws at it. Pixel density not as important as the extra "gain" being a crop. Speed in the AF was and even still is 7D2's golden ticket, we need to see if the R5 and R6 will have the servo speed though, there is a lot more you can do easily on a mirrorless AF than on a SLR. One thing the R6 won't have is the depth of AF customization the 7d2 has, but then again how many people owning a 7d2 really took advantage of it anyway? Rent a 90D and give it a shot, you will be surprised on how you don't need a 7d2 these days esp if you're not really dialing in the AF deep settings on the 7d2 to begin with. If the R6 has the AF of the R5 it won't be all that bad..


----------



## gruhl28 (Jul 7, 2020)

Why is there a dedicated “Rate” button? And the Set button looks crooked, makes me wonder if these are real pics or mockups.


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 7, 2020)

gruhl28 said:


> Why is there a dedicated “Rate” button? And the Set button looks crooked, makes me wonder if these are real pics or mockups.



My 5DIV has that too, its a waste of a button in my opinion and I have never used it...but some photographers swear by it, they use it in their workflow to more quickly cull throw aways. I do think on a body like the R6 with fewer buttons that one should have been an assignable function button (maybe it still is) but I agree, I found it odd for them to waste such precious real estate on a rate button. All will be revealed Thursday...not much longer to wait.


----------



## bergstrom (Jul 7, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Why is it a joke?


for the price you are paying, maybe at least 25-30mp


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Jul 7, 2020)

bergstrom said:


> for the price you are paying, maybe at least 25-30m


The camera has some serious strong points - the FPS, it’s full frame, video capabilities and so on.. it’s a decent price to pay for all that in my opinion.


----------



## Franklyok (Jul 7, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Neither depends on the processor speed, except for the edge cases with high speed shooting.



Empirically ... disagree. Smaller pixel count enables processor to suck more DR out of sensor, and do some noise removal ninja actions. Is this theory valid, not sure. 

Wondering if they could just increase cache buffer size, spend more processor time on buffered data. I do not care about so much 20 fps. 1 fps and spend 20x time on sensor raw, DGO , that would be great, umm , no ? 

And I predict R5 will come out with 2x digic 10 processors. Suppose R5 will have "crippled light meter" compared to 1dx line, that's all.


----------



## Joules (Jul 7, 2020)

Franklyok said:


> Empirically ... disagree. Smaller pixel count enables processor to suck more DR out of sensor, and do some noise removal ninja actions. Is this theory valid, not sure.


For JPEG, yes. But who talks about DR in a JPEG? Usually if you are concerned with DR, your dealing with RAW. And by the time the sensor data is in digital Form that a processor can deal with, it's DR is already set in stone.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 7, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> But canon regularly repurposes sensors but with different microlenses(which is what I think
> this will be) and calls them new



In fact, the most common Canon behavior is to repurpose older sensors by changing the microlenses, and then call them "*all* new."
This could be a re-warmed 6D sensor, the new 1D sensor, or something completely different. In my mind, this is the very crux of whether this is a useful b-unit camera versus the R5.


----------



## Franklyok (Jul 7, 2020)

Joules said:


> For JPEG, yes. But who talks about DR in a JPEG? Usually if you are concerned with DR, your dealing with RAW. And by the time the sensor data is in digital Form that a processor can deal with, it's DR is already set in stone.



first there is light , then there is sensor analog raw, than there is digital RAW , and then jpg.

I am concerned about analog raw to digital raw conversion.


----------



## Joules (Jul 7, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> In fact, the most common Canon behavior is to repurpose older sensors by changing the microlenses, and then call them "*all* new."
> This could be a re-warmed 6D sensor, the new 1D sensor, or something completely different. In my mind, this is the very crux of whether this is a useful b-unit camera versus the R5.


I doubt there is any way they could pull 5K video out of an old sensor like the original 6D one though.

1DX II or 1DX III seem more likely. Given the similar specs with regard to throughput my money is in the 1DX III. But maybe they'll not include the new high detail AA filter.


----------



## Joules (Jul 7, 2020)

Franklyok said:


> first there is light , then there is sensor analog raw, than there is digital RAW , and then jpg.
> 
> I am concerned about analog raw to digital raw conversion.


But that is not done by what you would typically call a processor but by an ADC unit.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 7, 2020)

The only time I ever have a problem with the 20 MP sensor in my 1DX Mark II is trying to crop to a vertical from a horizontal frame. If I can use the full height it’s OK but things go down hill from there. That’s just a function of the way I used that camera. I don’t expect I would use the 6R that way. A mild crop to clean up the composition to 16-18 MPs yields an excellent file with plenty of resolution for my purposes. I actually have more issue with the heavy AA filter than the resolution.

20 MPs is almost perfect for mild cropping and sampling down for 4K display which is where 99 percent of my personal work ends up.

I appreciate that some find value in higher MP images and they do look nice on my 5k iMac but there is a difference between need and nice.


----------



## Franklyok (Jul 7, 2020)

Joules said:


> But that is not done by what you would typically call a processor but by an ADC unit.



IDK these deatails. Sony S9 sensor has built in buffer. Could be true.

18mpx senror was 6+ years on the market, from digic (4? ) to digic digic (7?) , and suppose DR got always a hair better with processor update. That is why I assume it is up to digic processor. Processor is the botle neck.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 7, 2020)

Franklyok said:


> Empirically ... disagree. Smaller pixel count enables processor to suck more DR out of sensor, and do some noise removal ninja actions. Is this theory valid, not sure.


This theory is not valid, you may want to do a bit more research on the topic. Also just think about it, a slow processor can do whatever a fast processor can do, just slower.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Jul 7, 2020)

So great news today on a very rainy day in the UK. Canon UK just clarified for me that the lens reward for any RF Lens purchased since the end of march is 12 months (3 months for any EF lens). So if the R5 / R6 are added to the list of bodies any of us have purchased an RF lens since the end of march we will have 12 months to purchase the qualifying camera and then 30 days to submit a claim.
whoop whoop, If I have understood this correctly, that means the RF 70-200mm I purchased in April may still get me £255 Refund as long as the R5 is added to the list before the end of March 2021. 

This is the link Canon UK sent me.

'Regarding the cashback claim, let me inform you that the qualifying purchase period for RF lenses is 12 months, instead of 3 months which is the period provided for EF lenses, as you can see in our cashback webpage: https://www.canon.co.uk/lens-promo/?wt.mc_id=web_display:cuk:lens-promo:banner-promopage:link


----------



## xps (Jul 7, 2020)

So, which extra feature will this body have? ~2500$ - this will be 3000-3250 Euro in Germany. Wow. No top display. So which feature will you have to make me buing the R6 as an 2nd body? This must be an overwhevming IQ... otherwise the older "R" will stay my 2nd mirrorless body.


----------



## xps (Jul 7, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> So great news today on a very rainy day in the UK. Canon UK just clarified for me that the lens reward for any RF Lens purchased since the end of march is 12 months (3 months for any EF lens). So if the R5 / R6 are added to the list of bodies any of us have purchased an RF lens since the end of march we will have 12 months to purchase the qualifying camera and then 30 days to submit a claim.
> whoop whoop, If I have understood this correctly, that means the RF 70-200mm I purchased in April may still get me £255 Refund as long as the R5 is added to the list before the end of March 2021.
> 
> This is the link Canon UK sent me.
> ...


But will the R5 be included? This will be welcome.
Cashback for the 70-200 with the R5 and for the "R" the 24-70mm... Wonderful


----------



## YuengLinger (Jul 7, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> Where are all the people that few years ago literally begged Canon to give them a low megapixel high iso camera?


They are out taking pictures!


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 7, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> Where are all the people that few years ago literally begged Canon to give them a low megapixel high iso camera?



Where do you expect them to be?


----------



## highdesertmesa (Jul 7, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I know 3 top internationally known pros that would disagree with your statement that you can't sell large prints based on a 20mp sensor. All of them have thriving fine art print sales with options up to 40"x60" (or larger) from a large body of work (continuing to grow) created on 1dx ?? and D4's @ 20mp. Of course they like & shoot higher resolution cameras, but the 1d's and D4's are still their workhorse. To go extremely large, you need good light, great lenses, and proper technique. You also need a lab that knows what they are doing to pull every bit of resolution out of the file. If I want something really large, I always start with a section print to verify the file can go to a large size. On the last 40x60 I had printed, the section print showed the file could easily reach 40x60. An 20mp image shot with bad light, poor technique, mediocre lenses, or without perfect focus will certainly fall apart at larger sizes.



And the R6 is also going to make a great multi-shot pano camera to produce ultra-high-res images when needed. Put that puppy on all manual, handheld with IBIS, fire two or three rows of several shots and end up with true medium format-equivalent sized sensor IQ.


----------



## Joules (Jul 7, 2020)

xps said:


> So, which extra feature will this body have? ~2500$ - this will be 3000-3250 Euro in Germany. Wow. No top display. So which feature will you have to make me buing the R6 as an 2nd body? This must be an overwhevming IQ... otherwise the older "R" will stay my 2nd mirrorless body.


Under 2500 $ should also mean around 2500 €. EU prices are usually pretty close in nbers to the US ones. Slightly higher of course due to the inclusion of taxes and the additional warranties. But still. Don't know how you go to a 3K price based on current information. 

RP price in Amazon is currently 1260 € vs 1000 $. The R is 1950 vs 1800 $.

I think we'll see the R6 priced similarly to the 6D II on launch, so maybe 2200 $ and 2450 €.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 7, 2020)

bergstrom said:


> for the price you are paying, maybe at least 25-30mp



Canon's lowest resolution current ILC is also its most expensive.


----------



## Fast351 (Jul 7, 2020)

xps said:


> So, which extra feature will this body have? ~2500$ - this will be 3000-3250 Euro in Germany. Wow. No top display. So which feature will you have to make me buing the R6 as an 2nd body? This must be an overwhevming IQ... otherwise the older "R" will stay my 2nd mirrorless body.



IBIS? FPS? Better EVF? Better AF? Better ergonomics? 

I am debating between the R and the R6, and the ONLY thing the R wins on (aside price, presumably) is megapickles. 

Personally, for the photography I do, I'd rather have a fantastic AF system, great view finder, and higher frame rate than an extra 12MP. But that's me.


----------



## Danglin52 (Jul 7, 2020)

sagtor said:


> That's nice. Now tell that to the services offering prints for sale. They don't let you. I don't know how many million times I have to repeat myself. This isn't about printing your own poster at your fine art print store. This is about printing for sale. Not for gigs, not for yourself. You can't print anything larger than 15 inch with 20mp. It won't be accepted. It's called quality standards. It may be enough for you. It's not for most print services. 15-16 inches is the most you can do with 20mp. And that's nothing.


Look at https://www.mangelsen.com Tom Mangelsen. He has multiple galleries, sells a ton of prints, is an award winning photographer and a majority of this work is shot with the Nikon D4 & D5. I can give many other examples of photographers who are selling prints with the same level of camera. Is is more about the talent, content and post processing. Maybe it is the type content you shoot, but making a blanket statement you can't sell images from a 20mp sensor is not supported by the evidence. BTW - that doesn't count the body of work a lot of photographers own that was shot with film or early digital but is still viable for large prints.

Can you post your website address so we can see what type of images you are trying to sell?


----------



## H. Jones (Jul 7, 2020)

I really haven't felt like it's worth chiming in on this stupid concept of "you can't print larger than 15 inches at 20 megapixels" but it's honestly just so hysterical I can't help myself.

My coworkers and I have had 22 megapixel 5D3 images blown up to *literally* over 100 feet to cover the side of a stadium entrance, and images to cover decals across an entire double decker tour bus. They looked friggin' awesome, and they definitely had no issues being printed from 22 megapixel files. I make and sell 40x60 inch prints from my 1DX2 all the time, even from crops.

I don't know if anyone's ever told you this but... there are ways to increase the resolution of a file to print at 300 DPI no matter the size of the print that look perfectly fine.. And those skills were taught in literally the first intro class I ever took in my bachelor's degree in photojournalism. It's not impossible just because you put a 20 megapixel image into Shutterfly and it told you that it would only go to 15 inches


----------



## dichterDichter (Jul 7, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> I really haven't felt like it's worth chiming in on this stupid concept of "you can't print larger than 15 inches at 20 megapixels" but it's honestly just so hysterical I can't help myself.
> 
> My coworkers and I have had 22 megapixel 5D3 images blown up to *literally* over 100 feet to cover the side of a stadium entrance, and images to cover decals across an entire double decker tour bus. They looked friggin' awesome, and they definitely had no issues being printed from 22 megapixel files. I make and sell 40x60 inch prints from my 1DX2 all the time, even from crops.
> 
> I don't know if anyone's ever told you this but... there are ways to increase the resolution of a file to print at 300 DPI no matter the size of the print that look perfectly fine.. And those skills were taught in literally the first intro class I ever took in my bachelor's degree in photojournalism. It's not impossible just because you put a 20 megapixel image into Shutterfly and it told you that it would only go to 15 inches


and also, you have ti know what you are printing on and with what printer. printer for huge sizes normally dint hate that high resolution. also your material matters like for example textiles where yiu have gaps and then there is the fact that the printer makes little dots of colors so that resolution is not the main problem. i also feared it once but when i saw the print, 5*10 meters, i was angry becauseof all the unneccecary work i hadto produce high res.


----------



## mppix (Jul 7, 2020)

Joules said:


> It can't replace the 7D. It has a wildly different pixel density. The R5 on the other hand may be an alternative for some that are mostly concerned with improved speed rather than reach. If the EVF is up to the task.


Sure. My thoughts comes essentially from the 7D being an inexpensive fast camera.
We are now getting an inexpensive fast camera, likely with decent high ISO performance + inexpensive 600, 800mm lenses for reach...


----------



## mppix (Jul 7, 2020)

Billybob said:


> Yes.
> 
> 6D is FF (R6 replaces it)
> 7D is crop sensor; no way does R6 replace it. It just won't have the extended reach desired for WL photography. The R5 is more of a replacement because it will have far greater crop-ability.



I get that, but we are also getting inexpensive long lenses so less cropping is needed..


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 7, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> In fact, the most common Canon behavior is to repurpose older sensors by changing the microlenses, and then call them "*all* new."
> This could be a re-warmed 6D sensor, the new 1D sensor, or something completely different. In my mind, this is the very crux of whether this is a useful b-unit camera versus the R5.


I doubt it is the 6d sensor as that sensor would bot be able to perform at the level of the R6. So it pretty much HAS to be the 1dx3 sensor.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 7, 2020)

sagtor said:


> That's nice. Now tell that to the services offering prints for sale. They don't let you. I don't know how many million times I have to repeat myself. This isn't about printing your own poster at your fine art print store. This is about printing for sale. Not for gigs, not for yourself. You can't print anything larger than 15 inch with 20mp. It won't be accepted. It's called quality standards. It may be enough for you. It's not for most print services. 15-16 inches is the most you can do with 20mp. And that's nothing.


I have hit specified pixel numbers before in commercial work. Funny thing is I interpolated to four times the size with a basic PS 'resize bigger' command and all the resubmitted images were accepted without question, indeed I was told they were "very good".

Not belittling your point, just giving my personal experiences on the issue.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 7, 2020)

sagtor said:


> That's nice. Now tell that to the services offering prints for sale. They don't let you. I don't know how many million times I have to repeat myself. This isn't about printing your own poster at your fine art print store. This is about printing for sale. Not for gigs, not for yourself. You can't print anything larger than 15 inch with 20mp. It won't be accepted. It's called quality standards.


I think it's usually just _workflow_ standards, and upscaling your image in Photoshop will help to pass them.

(Are you sure it won't? Have you tried?)


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jul 7, 2020)

Kit. said:


> I think it's usually just _workflow_ standards, and upscaling your image in Photoshop will help to pass them.
> 
> (Are you sure it won't? Have you tried?)


What's photoshop?


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 8, 2020)

Rez up to your desired final print size and sharpen for output. " *This is the way*...."


----------



## o2cui2i (Jul 8, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Then the 1DX must be a joke too. I feel sorry for those people who bought it.



1DX is a sports camera where they want speed and small file size for quick transfer. it's a true sports photographers camera. they don't give a rats ass about pixels. they just want the burst mode to get the moment and send the file in so they get their check. for portraits, landscape... the pixels are more important. you might think 20 is fine and dandy but not everyone has the same needs.


----------



## o2cui2i (Jul 8, 2020)

Darrell Cadieux said:


> You do realize just about every billboard you've ever seen is images printed from cameras of less than 20mp. Then there is the new 1DXIII...at 20mp it must be a joke too. Guys that think their equipment makes them a photographer make me laugh. A good photographer can take a Kodak Instamatic 110 and do good work with it.



yeah, 10Mp photos look great from 3 blocks away. you need a lot more pixels for an 18"x24" print on your living room wall, unless you are going to look at it from your neighbors house? at 20Mp you have to get it right in camera because cropping is gonna blow, just a reality


----------



## Maru (Jul 8, 2020)

Guys...I'm not a big photographer but the $2500 rumored price is too much for R6...it cant justify $1000 more than R {expected to be discounted to $1500}.. R6 is a beast but thats for very much professional person


----------



## o2cui2i (Jul 8, 2020)

I'm still wondering about Eye AF. the rumor of Head AF was, well a head scratcher, why would a more expensive camera not have eye AF when the EOS R does? it's the thing that my next camera has to have. I love to shoot wide open portraits and my 6DII captures beautiful images, when the focus hits, but that's a bit of Russian roulette. 

if the R6 doesn't have Eye AF it won't be on my wish list. I'll just keep shooting the 6DII. don't care at all about video so the big specs about video don't do anything for me.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 8, 2020)

o2cui2i said:


> yeah, 10Mp photos look great from 3 blocks away. you need a lot more pixels for an 18"x24" print on your living room wall, unless you are going to look at it from your neighbors house? at 20Mp you have to get it right in camera because cropping is gonna blow, just a reality


I love when people come to accept things as normal when it wasn't always the case. Research the 32 page National Geographic cover article called 'The Future of Flying' by Joe McNally back in 2003.

_"McNally clinched his argument with the high quality of some 16 x 20 and 20 x 30-inch inkjet prints. He'd had them made from Nikon D1X photos, which he'd shot earlier that year on the aircraft carrier USS Harry S. Truman. The prints impressed several key figures at the magazine."_​The D1X was a 5.4mp 1.5 crop camera. 

http://www.robgalbraith.com/multi_pageff3f.html?cid=7-6450-6561

So whilst you all might *need *a gazillion MP, AF point linked spot metering, eye AF, 16 stops of dynamic range, 20 fps, blah blah blah some photographers were out there doing it with a lot less a long time ago. To me it just shows how good those photographers really were creating those images nearly 20 years ago with gear most of you wouldn't pick up if it was given to you.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 8, 2020)

o2cui2i said:


> I'm still wondering about Eye AF. the rumor of Head AF was, well a head scratcher, why would a more expensive camera not have eye AF when the EOS R does? it's the thing that my next camera has to have. I love to shoot wide open portraits and my 6DII captures beautiful images, when the focus hits, but that's a bit of Russian roulette.
> 
> if the R6 doesn't have Eye AF it won't be on my wish list. I'll just keep shooting the 6DII. don't care at all about video so the big specs about video don't do anything for me.


I think head AF means that it recognizes the shape of a head and holds focus there when the eyes aren't visible. i.e. the subject temporarily looks away. It's a good thing. It's all good so far. They'll be plenty of time for panic when the final specs come out on Thursday.


----------



## Shane (Jul 8, 2020)

I'm just excited there is a joystick haha. I love the R but I shot weddings with two 5dmk2, then two 5D3, then two 5DSR bodies and then two 5D4 bodies and I just got used to using single point focus and the joystick and choosing where to focus. Sure for family and portrait shots I'm loving the eye detect, but for receptions I miss that joystick. The thumb drag on the R has been good for now, but this and the R5 just look like they will be so much like what I am used to. For weddings 20 pixels works for me. I hated the slow import time and the huge delays in editing the 5DSR images and the bad low light noise. Im leaning towards two R6 bodies and keeping an R for portraits where I want a few more pixels. If next year goes really well an R5 would be great for senior portraits and engagements. The great thing is it's just looking good for those of us who invested in RF glass haha.


----------



## Jethro (Jul 8, 2020)

Maru said:


> Guys...I'm not a big photographer but the $2500 rumored price is too much for R6...it cant justify $1000 more than R {expected to be discounted to $1500}.. R6 is a beast but thats for very much professional person


$1500 is a great price for the EOS R and you would likely be very pleased with it. 'Up to' $2500 for the R6 would be the initial (pre-discount) price payable by Early Adopters - and for that they will get (likely - we don't know for sure) the same sensor as the 1DX III, the same EVF as the R5, brand spanking new IBIS, not to mention whatever upgraded AF etc trickery is included. There are now a wide range of price and spec points for Canon FF mirrorless bodies, and all of that (in my opinion) is a great thing - and light-years ahead of where Canon users were 2 yers ago.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 8, 2020)

o2cui2i said:


> yeah, 10Mp photos look great from 3 blocks away. you need a lot more pixels for an 18"x24" print on your living room wall, unless you are going to look at it from your neighbors house? at 20Mp you have to get it right in camera because cropping is gonna blow, just a reality


First of all. How friggen close do you stand to view an image? With an A3 size print I view from about 4 feet away. The bigger the print, the further you will view it from. Looking at the A3 size prints on my wall shot with a completely unusable 20mp crop sensor 7d2(some of which are actually quite heavily cropped) they look absolutely perfect. If I stick my nose against the glass then yes. I can see a loss of detail in a whisker here or there. But guess what. I also can't see the image at all. I have a 36x20 canvas on my wall across the room that was shot on an even worse than useless 18mp(yes, the dreaded 18mp canon sensor that is apparently the WORST sensor ever made) and it looks great. It was slightly cropped but not heavily and I can view it from about 5 feet(which is the distance required to see the image as a whole) and it looks fine. 
Not everyone is printing at 10ft across and not everyone is silly enough to view a print from 2 inches away. IF you are in a situation where you require more megapickles then cool. You have the options. But to say you cannot make a decent sized print of 20 or even 10megapickles then you are full of it. It CAN be done. It is OFTEN done. And the images are a joy to behold(as long as the image itself is a pleasing image) IF you think that more pickles will make a bad image look good as a big print then you will get an unpleasant shock


----------



## Maru (Jul 8, 2020)

Jethro said:


> $1500 is a great price for the EOS R and you would likely be very pleased with it. 'Up to' $2500 for the R6 would be the initial (pre-discount) price payable by Early Adopters - and for that they will get (likely - we don't know for sure) the same sensor as the 1DX III, the same EVF as the R5, brand spanking new IBIS, not to mention whatever upgraded AF etc trickery is included. There are now a wide range of price and spec points for Canon FF mirrorless bodies, and all of that (in my opinion) is a great thing - and light-years ahead of where Canon users were 2 yers ago.


Absolutely agreed... i have one question... is it like more MP adds upto bad low light noise? or there is no relation!


----------



## Jethro (Jul 8, 2020)

Maru said:


> Absolutely agreed... i have one question... is it like more MP adds upto bad low light noise? or there is no relation!


Depends entirely on the camera. I went from a 6D to an EOS R (which has the same sensor as the 5Div - 32MP) and I noticed what I thought was a slight increase in noise, but only in some situations and ISOs, and on the other hand I can recover more from shadows and highlights than I used to. Consequently, being partly a macro photographer who likes cropping, I think the extra MP are great. I don't have experience of the higher MP sensors, but there will always be trade-offs against the advantages you get.


----------



## mppix (Jul 8, 2020)

Maru said:


> Absolutely agreed... i have one question... is it like more MP adds upto bad low light noise? or there is no relation!



At an image level: NO. If you down-sample the image of a 50MP sensor to 20MP and compare it with the image of a 20MP sensor that is otherwise similar, the down-sampled image is likely cleaner (less noise).

At a pixel level: YES. A 50MP sensor has smaller photo sites and at 1:1 magnification the noise appears to be higher.


----------



## mppix (Jul 8, 2020)

o2cui2i said:


> 1DX is a sports camera where they want speed and small file size for quick transfer. it's a true sports photographers camera. they don't give a rats ass about pixels. they just want the burst mode to get the moment and send the file in so they get their check. for portraits, landscape... the pixels are more important. you might think 20 is fine and dandy but not everyone has the same needs.



Good photographers give a "rats ass" about pixels - full stop.


----------



## akramography (Jul 8, 2020)

How does it say Canon log but no Raw video mode? I thought Canon log is a Raw video format? someone correct me if I am mistaken.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (Jul 8, 2020)

RickWagoner said:


> If it's $2k-$2.5k, 20MP, Robust and fast AF, decent buffer along with the 12fps then this will be the go to wildlife mirrorless camera for many people. The 600 and 800 STM primes are telling me Canon really wants the bulk of the bird and wildlife shooters to come in on their R system now. Even on a low budget you can use EF-S lenses without any issue. IF this is priced right it may be Canon's best mid-range seller.



completely agree with you
i think some of the slr guys are focused a bit too much on other things that won’t matter as much. If canon nails the things you mention and it’s priced right without a cripple then this will sell really well.

These 2 cameras will be canons best items by far for new customers


----------



## GoldWing (Jul 8, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> You make absolutely no sense at all, I do shoot fashion among many other things and my work has been published in multiple magazines...yes I shoot with a 5DIV which has 30MP but it is way overkill, I could just as easily have created the exact same images with 20MP. By the time you get done setting up the footage for the magazine layout you are rarely using more than 8MP anyway.
> 
> I also have my work hanging on 6 story tall buildings in the downtown area where I live to showcase high rise luxury buildings that are about to be built..guess what they were shot with, a 20MP drone camera. For one project they created an entire artistic gallery to pre-sell $20M USD+ luxury condos for rich buyers, the entire gallery was covered in large highly detailed wall prints.....once again all shot with a tiny 20MP drone camera with a 1" sensor.
> 
> I'm not defending Canon's choice of sensor, and I think I know exactly why they did it...to save on costs by reusing an already amazing sensor from the 1DXIII while also providing the perfect sensor size for high quality video; I also believe there are scenarios where 20MP is not sufficient, mainly scenarios where you need to do a lot of cropping and recomposing in post to make up for a bad seating position or composition that you could not control like at fashion shows, for fashion shows I've needed every MP from my 5DIV at times because the organizers placed us in terrible positions and we had to make it work anyway; but calling a fantastic camera body with a 1DXIII sensor a toy just makes you look really ignorant.


The sensor from the 1DXMKIII is garbage to be in what was a "flagship" Skin like wax, hair like pudding. Too Soft with lacking DR and outdated the moment it hit the market. None of our agencies are buying the MKIII and Canon is dumping it in Cameras costing less than half... What does that tell you?

Canon can crow about the MKIII all they want but it's a flop! A bomb! A money loser! A outdated camera the day it hit the market. 

Very little difference between the MKII and MKIII to justify the spend for the teams, agencie, leagues, in-house or PEG's. 

Canon is going to have to do MUCH better. 

If people feel because the 20MP sensor was in the MKIII it's a big deal don't! It's not pure garbage... just repackaged repurposed garbage. 

Canon wasted our time with the camera and internally and with our clients we decided we didn't like it. It had nothing to do with the freezing or OVF issues, which we got stuck with but CPS fixed and sent back. It had to do with "Quality" 

Was the "spend" on the 1DXMKIII justified as a significant upgrade to justify everything surrounding the camera and workflow and upgrade in the resolution and DR. NO! 

Canon better get their act together as people who spend a lot of money buying as decision makers for large organizations are not happy campers now after the 1DXMKIII dog and pony show that tuned into a FLOP. 

Canon can make a 1DXMKIII at 15fps / RAW at over 40MP if they want to. And they opted not to by concentrating on video.

HUGE mistake


----------



## Franklyok (Jul 8, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> This theory is not valid, you may want to do a bit more research on the topic. Also just think about it, a slow processor can do whatever a fast processor can do, just slower.



Since you so confident about Digic processor not affecting ISO and DR performance, why don't you provide trust worthy info or link about it.

I am also wondering, why is that global shutter sensor solution has 1 stop less DR. I think the solution does not have fast enough motherboard-processor complex in order to handle "more analogues sudden data dump" ... You are wellcome to provide links, prove me wrong.


----------



## padam (Jul 8, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> The sensor from the 1DXMKIII is garbage to be in what was a "flagship" Skin like wax, hair like pudding. Too Soft with lacking DR and outdated the moment it hit the market. None of our agencies are buying the MKIII and Canon is dumping it in Cameras costing less than half... What does that tell you?
> 
> If people feel because the 20MP sensor was in the MKIII it's a big deal don't! It's not pure garbage... just repackaged repurposed garbage.
> 
> HUGE mistake


Can you elaborate how the Nikon D6 or a Sony A9II are any different in terms of resolution? If I see it right, they have kept the exact same megapixel count compared to their predecessors, just like the 1DX III and I don't think the dynamic range on these cameras are any better than the 1DX III.

I wonder if there is some sort of conspiracy going on, or maybe they have other customers that actually wanted that or cared with other things instead, like speed and durability


----------



## sobrien (Jul 8, 2020)

o2cui2i said:


> I'm still wondering about Eye AF. the rumor of Head AF was, well a head scratcher, why would a more expensive camera not have eye AF when the EOS R does? it's the thing that my next camera has to have. I love to shoot wide open portraits and my 6DII captures beautiful images, when the focus hits, but that's a bit of Russian roulette.
> 
> if the R6 doesn't have Eye AF it won't be on my wish list. I'll just keep shooting the 6DII. don't care at all about video so the big specs about video don't do anything for me.



Fear not! The R6 will have eye-AF. The rumour just listed head AF as something new. It also said identical AF to the R5. Safe to keep it on your wish list for the time being.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jul 8, 2020)

RickWagoner said:


> Speed in the AF was and even still is 7D2's golden ticket...


Yes, but speed is not everything if 50 % or more of the images are not in focus. I have a 7D2 since it came out, and compared with my old 5D3 the 7D2's phase detection AF was a real step back - with all of my different tele lenses. Of course, it needs to be more precise because of the higher resolution of the APC sensor than the FF camera's AF. I tried many different settings, but never managed to get my 7D2's performance on a level I'd be satisfied with. What I learned: it works quite well if it is really bright. I am pretty sure that the mediocre light sensitivity of the AF sensor is the bottleneck. That would be solved with a ML 7R, of course, since the dual pixel AF is really good. My problem is typical for birders, birds often have soft contours, light is not always optimum, so that's a real challenge for any AF system.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jul 8, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> Zebras?


That's a special mode combined with animal AF for those users who shoot video in Africa


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jul 8, 2020)

(


[email protected] said:


> In fact, the most common Canon behavior is to repurpose older sensors by changing the microlenses, and then call them "*all* new."
> This could be a re-warmed 6D sensor, the new 1D sensor, or something completely different. In my mind, this is the very crux of whether this is a useful b-unit camera versus the R5.


The sensor is not the problem, since Canon sensors are not bad. I remember a test done by an astro photographer and physics colleague some years ago who managed to measure on-chip the photo diode sensitivity of a 7D2's sensor, and the results were quite good. Canon's problem was the noisy electronics that process the voltage signals of the photo diodes, preamplification, A/D conversion etc. This produced a much higher electronic noise floor than Sony's technology. This noise problem limited the dynamic range of Canon cameras for some years (as far as I know). But with recent cameras they managed to catch up with the competition. Where Canon still lags behind is backlit sensors, where the wiring is located behind the sensor so it does not block a part of the light off. This could be a problem with patents held by Sony (and Samsung), I don't know. In fact, Canon filed an own patent some years ago for a BSI sensor design with dual pixels http://thenewcamera.com/canon-patent-bsi-cmos-sensor/ but this technology did not yet reach real products (as far as I know).


----------



## Franklyok (Jul 8, 2020)

Franklyok said:


> Since you so confident about Digic processor not affecting ISO and DR performance, why don't you provide trust worthy info or link about it.
> 
> I am also wondering, why is that global shutter sensor solution has 1 stop less DR. I think the solution does not have fast enough motherboard-processor complex in order to handle "more analogues sudden data dump" ... You are wellcome to provide links, prove me wrong.




"Electronic shutter reduces dynamic range", source https://canoncamerarumors.com/canon-eos-1d-x-mark-iii-gets-gold-award-at-dpreview-92-overall-score/

This means more FPS reduces DR... This is processor correlation. And therefore matter of prioritizing features , FPS over DR. Is this, what the market wants? 

Wondering if canon would put up 4 processors, Digic 10, in body... What could go wrong except battery drain... 

Nikon is going to add up, dual processors in Z6s and Z7s, and its all about video fps, no DR either.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jul 8, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> The sensor from the 1DXMKIII is garbage to be in what was a "flagship" Skin like wax, hair like pudding. Too Soft with lacking DR and outdated the moment it hit the market. None of our agencies are buying the MKIII and Canon is dumping it in Cameras costing less than half... What does that tell you?
> ...
> HUGE mistake


Well, obviously the guys at DPReview, not really known as Canon fanboys, came to the opposite conclusion (gold award):

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-1-d-x-iii-review


----------



## ozturert (Jul 8, 2020)

Just make it 2200 and I'll pre-order


----------



## Mark3794 (Jul 8, 2020)

The Canon "EOS R6" will be released in Japan in late August. The main features of R6 are "CMOS sensor based on flagship model", "DIGIC X" and "Dual pixel CMOS AF II". The main features of the R5 are "the world's first 8K video recording," "the world's highest 8.0-step image stabilization," "about 45 million pixels," and "high-speed continuous shooting at up to about 20 frames per second."

From Nokishita


----------



## AlP (Jul 8, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> The sensor from the 1DXMKIII is garbage to be in what was a "flagship" Skin like wax, hair like pudding. Too Soft with lacking DR and outdated the moment it hit the market. None of our agencies are buying the MKIII and Canon is dumping it in Cameras costing less than half... What does that tell you?
> 
> Canon can crow about the MKIII all they want but it's a flop! A bomb! A money loser! A outdated camera the day it hit the market.
> 
> ...



Not sure if the garbage part was supposed to be sarcastic...
Anyways, if "flagship model" means "1DXIII", it looks like the R6 will in fact get a modified version of the 1DXIII sensor: Google translated from Nokishita:

_ The main features of R6 are "CMOS sensor based on flagship model", "DIGIC X" and "Dual Pixel CMOS AF II"_


----------



## Sharlin (Jul 8, 2020)

Franklyok said:


> This means more FPS reduces DR... This is processor correlation. And therefore matter of prioritizing features , FPS over DR. Is this, what the market wants?



Nope, it's sensor readout speed correlation. The 1DX III shoots 20fps at 14-bit with the physical shutter. It's just the e-shutter that uses a faster ADC path. Indeed the 1DX III may be the only camera in the world currently that can do 20fps at full bit depth.


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 8, 2020)

More stuff is coming out:

_The Canon “EOS R6” will be released in Japan in late August. The main features of R6 are "CMOS sensor based on flagship model", "DIGIC X" and "Dual pixel CMOS AF II". _​​--> implies we have the 1DX3 sensor in there​​_The main features of the R5 are "the world's first 8K video recording," "the world's highest 8.0-step image stabilization," "about 45 million pixels," and "high-speed continuous shooting at up to about 20 frames per second." _​​--> 8 stop IS claim, but it's unclear if that's 8 stops IBIS by itself, if it's IBIS + lens IS, IBIS + electronic video stabilization, etc.​​Heady times. We're nearly there.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 8, 2020)

And there's more. Dates but no price on the R5 yet:

_The Canon "EOS R5" is expected to be released in Japan in late July (some US retailers set the shipment start date for the R5, RF800mm, and RF600mm to July 30, 2020). The R5 lens kit has not been confirmed in Japan at this time (R6 only confirms the body and RF24-105mm STM kit). _​
- A


----------



## Sharlin (Jul 8, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> _The Canon “EOS R6” will be released in Japan in late August. The main features of R6 are "CMOS sensor based on flagship model", "DIGIC X" and "Dual pixel CMOS AF II". _​​--> implies we have the 1DX3 sensor in there​



Technically, the 1DX Mark _II _ is also a flagship and has a 20MP sensor. I do wonder though if the R6 is going to get the fancy new low-pass filter of the Mark III.


----------



## amorse (Jul 8, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Well, obviously the guys at DPReview, not really known as Canon fanboys, came to the opposite conclusion (gold award):
> 
> https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-1-d-x-iii-review


DPreview even claimed the 1DX III had "class leading" dynamic range for flagship cameras. Considering their historical criticisms, often leaning on DR as a key gripe, seeing them claim class leading DR stood out to me.


----------



## amorse (Jul 8, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> More stuff is coming out:
> 
> _The Canon “EOS R6” will be released in Japan in late August. The main features of R6 are "CMOS sensor based on flagship model", "DIGIC X" and "Dual pixel CMOS AF II". _​​--> implies we have the 1DX3 sensor in there​​_The main features of the R5 are "the world's first 8K video recording," "the world's highest 8.0-step image stabilization," "about 45 million pixels," and "high-speed continuous shooting at up to about 20 frames per second." _​​--> 8 stop IS claim, but it's unclear if that's 8 stops IBIS by itself, if it's IBIS + lens IS, IBIS + electronic video stabilization, etc.​​Heady times. We're nearly there.
> 
> - A


That's gotta be with lens IS I would think? And I'm curious about dual pixel CMOS auto focus II - is that a new iteration of DPAF or has it been implemented on other bodies?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 8, 2020)

Franklyok said:


> Since you so confident about Digic processor not affecting ISO and DR performance, why don't you provide trust worthy info or link about it



It would be very hard to prove a negative statement  And it was actually your statement to start with - do you have any sources to prove the cpu speed affects the DR of a single shot?


----------



## Cory (Jul 8, 2020)

Any talk of maybe a 40mm (or close to it) pancake (or small) lens?


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 8, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> Where are all the people that few years ago literally begged Canon to give them a low megapixel high iso camera?


They realized that the meme was entirely fallacious, there is virtually no correlation between pixel density and high iso noise In same generation sensors. So I suppose we could say they got an edumacation... [sic]


----------



## GoldWing (Jul 8, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Well, obviously the guys at DPReview, not really known as Canon fanboys, came to the opposite conclusion (gold award):
> 
> https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-1-d-x-iii-review


DP Review is a joke. - The site is run by "Pro Haters". Their "Gold Award" is nothing more than a ploy to get Canon Advertising. The site is really run by Amazon and their moderators are some of the worst who seem to do everything to keep the site as biased and unpleasant as possible.

They block pros from using the site, not allowing commercial watermarks or tag line in your work and ban you if you use them. When you talk about "facts" their Nazi police come out and if they personally disagree with you on "camera science" they ban and moderate everything you say.

DP Review's Gold Award is made of "Tin"


----------



## Jack Douglas (Jul 8, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> The sensor from the 1DXMKIII is garbage to be in what was a "flagship" Skin like wax, hair like pudding. Too Soft with lacking DR and outdated the moment it hit the market. None of our agencies are buying the MKIII and Canon is dumping it in Cameras costing less than half... What does that tell you?
> 
> Canon can crow about the MKIII all they want but it's a flop! A bomb! A money loser! A outdated camera the day it hit the market.
> 
> ...


Seems like personal issues, axe grinding to me.

Jack


----------



## AEWest (Jul 8, 2020)

amorse said:


> DPreview even claimed the 1DX III had "class leading" dynamic range for flagship cameras. Considering their historical criticisms, often leaning on DR as a key gripe, seeing them claim class leading DR stood out to me.


Anyone here with both 1dx2 and 1dx3? If so have you noticed a difference in DR?


----------



## degos (Jul 8, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> _"McNally clinched his argument with the high quality of some 16 x 20 and 20 x 30-inch inkjet prints. He'd had them made from Nikon D1X photos, which he'd shot earlier that year on the aircraft carrier USS Harry S. Truman. The prints impressed several key figures at the magazine."_​The D1X was a 5.4mp 1.5 crop camera.



And he got one photo printed full-page... 

Standards move on. That story is a good example of adopting a technology that provided adequate results while eliminating a serious problem ( FOD in the cockpit ). Otherwise, why didn't we just stay at 5.4MP...?


----------



## jayphotoworks (Jul 8, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> Seems like personal issues, axe grinding to me.
> 
> Jack



I seem to see a growing anti-sentiment that manufacturers (like Canon) have put more resources into fleshing out its video functionality at the cost of its stills performance. I thought we had long agreed that Canon decides what to put in their products based on their target market. Just recently, some of those bodies left out 24p, left in a significant crop in 4K or didn't have IBIS among other things. When users complained about how that would hurt Canon's share, the data would always show that it had no real effect on its market share. Neuro has probably mentioned this a million times here already...

Clearly, Canon has changed their mindset. Hybrid shooters like myself shooting more video than stills maybe only make up a small part of the market, but when the entire market contracts dramatically with the ongoing pandemic compounding this, Canon might be looking at what other segments it can appeal to and as a result decided to spec its upcoming R5/R6 this way.

At this point, all manufacturers includes some form of video specs. The GFX100 shoots ProRes RAW, even a Leica M240 shoots 1080p. Aside from any real fine print tomorrow aka "cripple-hammer" , it appears as if Canon will be WAY out in the lead as a comprehensive hybrid MILC. Heck, I'm a Sony shooter and the R5 is REALLY appealing to me right now because it is a dramatic upgrade to what I have now.


----------



## Franklyok (Jul 8, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> Nope, it's sensor readout speed correlation. The 1DX III shoots 20fps at 14-bit with the physical shutter. It's just the e-shutter that uses a faster ADC path. Indeed the 1DX III may be the only camera in the world currently that can do 20fps at full bit depth.



Well then, isn't there any "slower, more profound" ADC path available. I remember my old sony nex5t which, was processing a image 2 seconds after shot. Processor was supposedly terribly slow, but it got eventually more details. 1fps could be enough.


----------



## Sharlin (Jul 8, 2020)

Franklyok said:


> Well then, isn't there any "slower, more profound" ADC path available. I remember my old sony nex5t which, was processing a image 2 seconds after shot. Processor was supposedly terribly slow, but it got eventually more details. 1fps could be enough.



The problem is not delay between shots, the problem is delay _during sensor readout_ which leads to a rolling shutter effect. The solution is to just use the mechanical shutter, that's what it is for. Alternatively, buy a Sony a9 II whose e-shutter is state-of-the-art, or just wait for the technology to improve.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 8, 2020)

degos said:


> And he got one photo printed full-page...
> 
> Standards move on. That story is a good example of adopting a technology that provided adequate results while eliminating a serious problem ( FOD in the cockpit ). Otherwise, why didn't we just stay at 5.4MP...?


OR, the article has five double trucks and a four page gate fold! But let's not let the facts get in the way of our bloviating.

Whilst the in flight practicalities made sense and offered genuine functional improvements over using film that cannot be said of any of the rest of the images, several were very involved pre organized set pieces where he could have used anything, and lets not forget he won the story pitch on the quality of 15"x20" and 20"x30" prints he showed to National Geographic photo editors, story editors and managers.

Yes time and standards move on, but you are fooling nobody but impressionable newbies with the farcical position that you can't print over 15" with a 20mp camera.


----------



## cayenne (Jul 8, 2020)

magarity said:


> My only real question is, should I take my chances selling my 6D to sketchy buyers on eBay or just trade in at the local camera shop for a lower price but no hassle?



Why not sell it yourself locally, like on craigslist?

A trade in surely won't give you the maximum value of your 6D....

Just my $0.02,

C


----------



## cayenne (Jul 8, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> I have five months to convince my wife that this cameras is necessary. Not easy for someone who does not understand sensor performance in low light etc. Any tips would be appreciated.
> Ps. I ALWAYS immediately say yes when she wants to buy another item of clothing that isn't needed so I do have that in my favor



How about the "Golden Rule".

He who makes the most gold....makes the rules?


----------



## Jack Douglas (Jul 8, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> I seem to see a growing anti-sentiment that manufacturers (like Canon) have put more resources into fleshing out its video functionality at the cost of its stills performance. I thought we had long agreed that Canon decides what to put in their products based on their target market. Just recently, some of those bodies left out 24p, left in a significant crop in 4K or didn't have IBIS among other things. When users complained about how that would hurt Canon's share, the data would always show that it had no real effect on its market share. Neuro has probably mentioned this a million times here already...
> 
> Clearly, Canon has changed their mindset. Hybrid shooters like myself shooting more video than stills maybe only make up a small part of the market, but when the entire market contracts dramatically with the ongoing pandemic compounding this, Canon might be looking at what other segments it can appeal to and as a result decided to spec its upcoming R5/R6 this way.
> 
> At this point, all manufacturers includes some form of video specs. The GFX100 shoots ProRes RAW, even a Leica M240 shoots 1080p. Aside from any real fine print tomorrow aka "cripple-hammer" , it appears as if Canon will be WAY out in the lead as a comprehensive hybrid MILC. Heck, I'm a Sony shooter and the R5 is REALLY appealing to me right now because it is a dramatic upgrade to what I have now.


My comment was directed more at issues Goldwing has had with Canon that have been disputed by many in the past. I think he exaggerates ... a lot. 

As a 1DX2 shooter of wildlife I align with 20 isn't enough but primarily because I'm usually FL limited and crop a lot. For other uses it's fine.

Jack


----------



## koenkooi (Jul 8, 2020)

cayenne said:


> Why not sell it yourself locally, like on craigslist?
> 
> A trade in surely won't give you the maximum value of your 6D....
> [..]



That's true, but it keeps being a lot of hassle. In preparation for the R5 I asked different stores about what they'd offer for my RP + EG-E1, the offers ranged from €300 to €800. Stores with a big 'used' department were the ones offering the most.
That €800 was very tempting, no need to bother with the local version of craigslist, which is, to put it mildly, a lot worse than ebay.


----------



## SteveC (Jul 8, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> Seems like personal issues, axe grinding to me.
> 
> Jack



The only reason he comes here is to bash the 1DX III and invite the inference that because it sucks, Canon sucks. Oh, and to brag about what a big time pro he is.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 8, 2020)

cayenne said:


> How about the "Golden Rule".
> 
> He who makes the most gold....makes the rules?


She does  Luckily she has kept her job trough this mess. I stopped working nearly four months ago


----------



## Franklyok (Jul 9, 2020)

Joules said:


> But that is not done by what you would typically call a processor but by an ADC unit.



All I am saing is that when you look historically at 18 mpx sensor, It allways got a hair better DR with Digic processor update. Obiously the Digic processor update included also ADC unit update. Now perhaps with from 1DX2 to 1DX3 update we do not see that ADC unit update. It seam to be Canon consious decision to put all horses into FPS. ( Canon could sue DxoMark for wroungful information, if this DxoMark were wrong. Court people too want money .)

So back to the begining. I am not expecting R6 ( and R5 ) to have more DR than that of 1DX3 . 1DX series sets the baseline for other series ... That is DR of 13 dot somethting and below 14 stops. Anything more would cut 1DX3 sales. Canon users are expected to do bracketing and image stacking.

I am wondering if bracketing ( 3 shots ) is done at the speed of 12 FPS or 20 FPS.

ISO bracketing also hoped by some PRO-s.


----------



## jd7 (Jul 9, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> OR, the article has five double trucks and a four page gate fold! But let's not let the facts get in the way of our bloviating.
> 
> Whilst the in flight practicalities made sense and offered genuine functional improvements over using film that cannot be said of any of the rest of the images, several were very involved pre organized set pieces where he could have used anything, and lets not forget he won the story pitch on the quality of 15"x20" and 20"x30" prints he showed to National Geographic photo editors, story editors and managers.
> 
> Yes time and standards move on, but you are fooling nobody but impressionable newbies with the farcical position that you can't print over 15" with a 20mp camera.


I've got two 45" x 30" prints framed on my wall, both from a 20 MP 6D. I'm very happy with them. That said, I don't have experience of printing photos from higher MP cameras to compare whether there would be any appreciable improvement in the prints if I had had more MP available. Anyway, whatever the case about that, it doesn't change the fact I'm very happy with the prints I have.

Despite that though, the fact the R6 is "only" 20 MP is a black mark against it in my book. Not necessarily a huge black mark, but it's lower than what I would ideally be looking for these days.


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 9, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> That's true, but it keeps being a lot of hassle. In preparation for the R5 I asked different stores about what they'd offer for my RP + EG-E1, the offers ranged from €300 to €800. Stores with a big 'used' department were the ones offering the most.
> That €800 was very tempting, no need to bother with the local version of craigslist, which is, to put it mildly, a lot worse than ebay.


Except for Ebay's fees.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jul 9, 2020)

amorse said:


> DPreview even claimed the 1DX III had "class leading" dynamic range for flagship cameras. Considering their historical criticisms, often leaning on DR as a key gripe, seeing them claim class leading DR stood out to me.


In fact, I had recently the chance to shoot wildlife side by side with a guy who tested his brand-new 1D-X Mk III. He transferred some images on his smartphone, zoomed in and showed me the details. The images out of the camera looked very good, in particular at high ISOs. He tried extremely high shutter speeds to boost ISOs up to > 20.000, and there wasn't any notable noise to be seen when he zoomed in. Canon definitely improved the performance of the 1D-X in this generation in nearly every aspect, of course, otherwise it would be hard to convince pros (and amateurs with enough budget) to upgrade.


----------



## AlanF (Jul 9, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> She does  Luckily she has kept her job trough this mess. I stopped working nearly four months ago


Sorry to hear about your job and I hope it works out for you.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 9, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Sorry to hear about your job and I hope it works out for you.


All good mate. We are in a far better position than many so I am not complaining. And now I am starting up some animal photography workshops at the zoo where I work(worked) so with a bit of luck they will go ok and get me some income. One door closes another opens so they say.


----------



## DylanC (Jul 9, 2020)

R6: Anyone know if there is any video crop for the 4K 60fps 4:2:2 recording mode?


----------



## TomR (Jul 9, 2020)

DylanC said:


> R6: Anyone know if there is any video crop for the 4K 60fps 4:2:2 recording mode?



yes 1.07x


----------



## DylanC (Jul 9, 2020)

TomR said:


> yes 1.07x


Cheers mate. Just was confused by conflicting info from these Canon Youtube ambassadors. Do you know if the R5 also has a 1.07x crop for 4K 4:2:2?


----------



## TomR (Jul 9, 2020)

DylanC said:


> Cheers mate. Just was confused by conflicting info from these Canon Youtube ambassadors. Do you know if the R5 also has a 1.07x crop for 4K 4:2:2?



no crop on the r5


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Jul 9, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Is a top down screen really that big a deal? Maybe it is. I just don't see it as such especially since the back screen is always there. Wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.



I use the top down screen on my mirrorless so I can change the settings with the minimal battery use. I have the back screen off most of the time when out so I can keep the EVF on a longer timer before sleep(They are strangely related in the settings).


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 9, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> All good mate. We are in a far better position than many so I am not complaining. And now I am starting up some animal photography workshops at the zoo where I work(worked) so with a bit of luck they will go ok and get me some income. One door closes another opens so they say.


Good news on the Zoo workshops. Our zoo here in Dallas, TX. offers workshops. Bet that will be a fun gig. Best wishes to you!


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 9, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Good news on the Zoo workshops. Our zoo here in Dallas, TX. offers workshops. Bet that will be a fun gig. Best wishes to you!


Thanks mate. it is only a small zoo at this time but we are going through a revolutionary change of philosophy as just before I started there it got new management that is determined to see it become a zoo of of 21st century instead of the 20th century. The workshops are an exciting little addition that we hope will prove popular. TBH though we really need our borders to open to get interstate and eventually international travellers back


----------



## drmikeinpdx (Jul 10, 2020)

Does anyone know what the flash sync speed is for the R6? Does it vary with the shutter mode selected? (mechanical, electronic)


----------



## padam (Jul 10, 2020)

drmikeinpdx said:


> Does anyone know what the flash sync speed is for the R6? Does it vary with the shutter mode selected? (mechanical, electronic)


It only works in mechanical mode, the EFCS is on by default, it is 1/250 sec that way, or if you turn it off it is 1/200 sec

Another feature worth mentioning is the FF4k60p (1.07x crop) does retain the Dual-Pixel Autofocus (it was disabled on the 1DX III) and the two cameras have a different AA filter.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 10, 2020)

I received an email from Atomos this morning saying that they will support 4k 60p 10-bit 422 ProRes for both the R5 and R6 at launch. Setting aside all the talk about the R5, 8K and such; an R6 w/Ninja V sounds like it will be a solid performer. Canon has never allowed that sort of output in the past. Spend a few hundred on a high quality, high capacity SSD and you are good to go. That micro HDMI might be an issue.

I could see a rig like that replacing my X-T3. I'm happy with the results I'm getting now but if the Canon IBIS is is good as many are saying I could just about ditch the gimbal. That would be great. 

I'm a little annoyed about the lack of DCI. I'm not sure what that is all about. Sounds like some old-school Canon gimping but I'm trying to reserve judgement.


----------



## cayenne (Jul 10, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I received an email from Atomos this morning saying that they will support 4k 60p 10-bit 422 ProRes for both the R5 and R6 at launch. Setting aside all the talk about the R5, 8K and such; an R6 w/Ninja V sounds like it will be a solid performer. Canon has never allowed that sort of output in the past. Spend a few hundred on a high quality, high capacity SSD and you are good to go. That micro HDMI might be an issue.
> 
> I could see a rig like that replacing my X-T3. I'm happy with the results I'm getting now but if the Canon IBIS is is good as many are saying I could just about ditch the gimbal. That would be great.
> 
> I'm a little annoyed about the lack of DCI. I'm not sure what that is all about. Sounds like some old-school Canon gimping but I'm trying to reserve judgement.




Is that ProRES RAW in 4K?


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 10, 2020)

cayenne said:


> Is that ProRES RAW in 4K?


No RAW. Plain old ProRes. Works for me. Runs like melted butter on a Mac.


----------



## yungfat (Jul 10, 2020)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> I was planning on just buying the R5 on Thursday...now it seems I'm going to be forced to get an R6 too. Here's hoping I don't get divorced.



Hahahaha.... Seriously?


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 10, 2020)

SteveC said:


> The only reason he comes here is to bash the 1DX III and invite the inference that because it sucks, Canon sucks. Oh, and to brag about what a big time pro he is.


Canon stole his girlfriend or his lunch money, or ate his homework or his last piece of birthday cake...... It’s hard to keep up.


----------



## yungfat (Jul 10, 2020)

sagtor said:


> Very glad about the oversampled 5k for post stabilization but the 20mp are just garbage. That's what my old 7D from 10 years ago has, 18.
> 20 is a joke in 2020. Very unfortunate.



I think a "real" medium format will suit you better.


----------



## yungfat (Jul 10, 2020)

Jimmy said:


> They're using Bluetooth 4.2 on the R6 instead of 5.0 like on the R5? WTH? That's not saving them any money, it's just a way of making people think twice before choosing the R6 over the R5.
> The 20 mp sensor is a huge step backward and not necessary since the R6 will still be an expensive camera.



In full frame world, 2499 isn't expensive camera....


----------



## yungfat (Jul 10, 2020)

Jimmy said:


> When will Tamron have R mount lenses? The ones Canon has are slow!



I can't remember if Tamron ever came out any lens larger than f/1.2


----------



## yungfat (Jul 10, 2020)

Darrell Cadieux said:


> You do realize just about every billboard you've ever seen is images printed from cameras of less than 20mp. Then there is the new 1DXIII...at 20mp it must be a joke too. Guys that think their equipment makes them a photographer make me laugh. A good photographer can take a Kodak Instamatic 110 and do good work with it.



Amateurs and hobbyists are always crying for high MP, DR and super high ISO..


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 10, 2020)

Jimmy said:


> When will Tamron have R mount lenses? The ones Canon has are slow!


f/1.2, f/1.8 primes, f/2 zoom, f/2.8 zooms by Canon. Yes, f/11 is slow. I think you are overlooking a few things. Just a few.


----------



## yungfat (Jul 10, 2020)

Mike9129 said:


> 20mp is tons, exactly how big are you planning on printing your image that it wont be ok?
> 
> I've a 190x96cm or so photo printed off the inspire 2 x5s camera, and that's a 20mp sensor as well but micro 4/3's.
> Looks absolutely perfect in print, and now imagine how much sharper it would be with a FF sensor like will be in the R6
> ...



My guess is, most people is using 61mp Sony camera to snap photo and post on Instagram... Just guessing


----------



## yungfat (Jul 10, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> How many 20 FPS/20 MP full frame sensors can Canon have? Canon might say it's different from the 1DX Mark III for marketing purposes but, *If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it ain't no armadillo*.



If it's 1D Mark III sensor, then it's a bless. You won't understand until you handle 1D series files..


----------



## yungfat (Jul 10, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> I have five months to convince my wife that this cameras is necessary. Not easy for someone who does not understand sensor performance in low light etc. Any tips would be appreciated.
> Ps. I ALWAYS immediately say yes when she wants to buy another item of clothing that isn't needed so I do have that in my favor



You may tell her the new camera will take more beautiful photo of her. Most people will believe the myth that better camera will take better photo.

As I showed photo taken either by phone or camera to my friends, their first question is, "what camera / phone you used to shoot?"

My 2 cents.


----------



## yungfat (Jul 10, 2020)

Jimmy said:


> No, but 24-105 f/4 - 7.1 I do.


You have choice for 24-105 f4


----------



## Canonite (Jul 14, 2020)

yungfat said:


> You may tell her the new camera will take more beautiful photo of her. Most people will believe the myth that better camera will take better photo.
> 
> As I showed photo taken either by phone or camera to my friends, their first question is, "what camera / phone you used to shoot?"
> 
> My 2 cents.


I have been shooting with Canon camera's for around 40 years. I shoot a 1Dx II and have been shooting pro bodies for some time now.
"Never" ever in my photography career did I ever look at a photo and wonder what camera took the image. Never ever.... 

Either a photo is good or captivating, and that may make me wonder how the shot was taken. The lighting, the mood the excitement the action shot of a fast bird, but never have I wondered if a Nikon? maybe a D5 or D4 or a 1D Mark II or a 7D... took the image.

A new camera won't make you a better photographer, just like a new piano won't make you a concert pianist.


----------



## yungfat (Jul 15, 2020)

Canonite said:


> I have been shooting with Canon camera's for around 40 years. I shoot a 1Dx II and have been shooting pro bodies for some time now.
> "Never" ever in my photography career did I ever look at a photo and wonder what camera took the image. Never ever....
> 
> Either a photo is good or captivating, and that may make me wonder how the shot was taken. The lighting, the mood the excitement the action shot of a fast bird, but never have I wondered if a Nikon? maybe a D5 or D4 or a 1D Mark II or a 7D... took the image.
> ...



Hi Canonite,

thanks for your comments.

that is suggestion for the comment that to convince his wife for the EOS R5 purchase.

however, I am totally agreed with you, it’s the “photographer” taking the photo, camera Is just processing the photo.

cheers


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 15, 2020)

Canonite said:


> I have been shooting with Canon camera's for around 40 years. I shoot a 1Dx II and have been shooting pro bodies for some time now.
> "Never" ever in my photography career did I ever look at a photo and wonder what camera took the image. Never ever....
> 
> Either a photo is good or captivating, and that may make me wonder how the shot was taken. The lighting, the mood the excitement the action shot of a fast bird, but never have I wondered if a Nikon? maybe a D5 or D4 or a 1D Mark II or a 7D... took the image.
> ...



I agree with you, however, I am glad that my wife is not following CR... My justification for a new photographic equipment purchase is a bit contrary to what you have just said


----------



## bergstrom (Jul 18, 2020)

any mention how R6 deals with moire/ anti aliasing?


----------



## Michael Clark (Jul 29, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Here is an explanation why the DxO score of the 1D-X III is worse than the Mk II:
> 
> https://petapixel.com/2020/06/24/this-is-why-the-canon-1d-x-mark-iii-scored-so-badly-on-dxomark/
> 
> ...












DXOMark Admits They Screwed Up Their Canon 1D X Mark III Review


Earlier today, DXOMark issued an apology. The popular sensor testing company revised its controversially low score for the Canon 1D X Mark III, admitting




petapixel.com


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 30, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> yeah when you pay for a camera its your camera and your sensor.


But you are only buying a license for the firmware that runs it....

[/PULLS PIN RUNS AWAY]


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 30, 2020)

sagtor said:


> I'm more interested in a sizecomparison of R6 vs. DSLRs like 6D or 7D


This site will do that, you can even choose bodies and lenses.






Compare camera dimensions side by side







camerasize.com


----------



## bbb34 (Jul 30, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> But you are only buying a license for the firmware that runs it....
> 
> [/PULLS PIN RUNS AWAY]



That would be funny - if it wasn't true.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jul 30, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> DXOMark Admits They Screwed Up Their Canon 1D X Mark III Review
> 
> 
> Earlier today, DXOMark issued an apology. The popular sensor testing company revised its controversially low score for the Canon 1D X Mark III, admitting
> ...


DxOMG!  In fact, I've seen so good low light results out of the 1D-X III that I didn't believe their scores.


----------



## vrpanorama.ca (Jul 31, 2020)

Any update on shipping date for the R6? I have pre-order it and the local supplier wanted to charge me right away but I negotiated with them so they do not charge me before a week prior to shipping.


----------



## cayenne (Jul 31, 2020)

bbb34 said:


> That would be funny - if it wasn't true.


Well, technically you are free to burn any firmware you wish onto that camera hardware.

If you were to clean room figure out the hardware and come out with your own firmware for it, you should be legally able to develop, use and even sell this new firmware to others.

Much like how cars have their firmware or even whole chip sets for controlling the engines you can buy from 3rd parties.

Just to be pedantic.



C


----------

