# A new Canon DSLR seems to be getting teased on social media by a Canon ambassador



## R1-7D (May 3, 2019)

> Canon UK ambassador Andy Rouse has been active on Instagram apparently teasing a new camera body. I would think he’s not out using another company’s gear, so what could he be talking about?
> He mentions using “new kit” and saying “I had to take the motor drive speed down from 30 fps to 5fps as I was taking too many sharp shots”
> So what could he be teasing and/or testing? The obvious answer would be the upcoming Canon EOS-1D X Mark III. Andy was one of the early testers of the Canon EOS-1D X Mark II, so that’s not too much of a leap to assume. We were told back in February that testing had begun on the EOS-1D X Mark II replacement.
> Is it possible that the EOS-1D X Mark III will shoot 30fps with the mirror locked up?
> There’s also a possibility he’s testing out the new 32.5mp...



Continue reading...


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## Ozarker (May 3, 2019)

Who is Andy Rouse? Great pic!


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## R1-7D (May 3, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Who is Andy Rouse? Great pic!



He’s a Canon Ambassador in the UK.


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## StoicalEtcher (May 3, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Who is Andy Rouse? Great pic!


I seem to recall it was his pics of the kingfisher that were used as part of the 1DXmkII marketing release etc. from his earlier field testing of that camera.


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## R1-7D (May 3, 2019)

In his tweet thread he specifically said this image was not taken with RF glass; he said none of the upcoming lenses are long enough. 

I wonder if it’s either a new 300 f/2.8 or 500 f/4...


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## Bundu (May 4, 2019)

Aaaa, the mythical 200-600 F5.6 zoom?


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## unfocused (May 4, 2019)

Bundu said:


> Aaaa, the mythical 200-600 F5.6 zoom?


Don't we wish. (I think though most people conceded it would have to be 500 mm if it's f5.6. Still would be terrific.


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## Del Paso (May 4, 2019)

No matter what he's been using, this is a perfect picture.
Well, I was lying , it does matter...
Looking at the diffuse background, it sure was a long telephoto lens, EF 500 f.5,6 ???


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## AlanF (May 4, 2019)

Del Paso said:


> No matter what he's been using, this is a perfect picture.
> Well, I was lying , it does matter...
> Looking at the diffuse background, it sure was a long telephoto lens, EF 500 f.5,6 ???


There is essentially no background so how can you say it is a long telephoto 500/5.6?


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## 3kramd5 (May 5, 2019)

AlanF said:


> There is essentially no background so how can you say it is a long telephoto 500/5.6?


There is no background, nor is there any way to judge how distant is the background.


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## haggie (May 5, 2019)

R1-7D said:


> Apparently there’s something new that he is testing!
> 
> Thoughts on what it might be?



Or perhaps 'just' a new fill-in flash ................. for the R-series?


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## Kit. (May 5, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> There is no background, nor is there any way to judge how distant is the background.


There is a very smooth 4-5 centimeter (to the scale of the cuckoo) bokeh of something that looks like thin branches. Can be a DS lens.


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## docsmith (May 6, 2019)

1Dx3?


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## StoicalEtcher (May 6, 2019)

docsmith said:


> 1Dx3?


That would be the hope wouldn't it?  But you can't help feeling if it was something that 'big', he wouldn't even be allowed to drop those kind of hints about it....


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## 3kramd5 (May 6, 2019)

Kit. said:


> There is a very smooth 4-5 centimeter (to the scale of the cuckoo) bokeh of something that looks like thin branches. Can be a DS lens.


This thread is about new kit. You’re the old kit. What gives?


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## Hector1970 (May 7, 2019)

Yes maybe a 1DXIII.
I’m really interested in what that camera will be. It perhaps will be the last great DSLR


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## R1-7D (May 8, 2019)

So it looks like it’s a camera. Andy posted two more images, as seen below. He puts some exif data along with them, such as the focal length of the lens and aperture/shutter speed, etc.


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## R1-7D (May 8, 2019)

Makes me wonder if this is possibly the new aps-c camera he’s testing.


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## R1-7D (May 8, 2019)

Okay, now I think it’s a mirror less camera!


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## AlanF (May 8, 2019)

Whatever the body, we need a new 300mm f/4 with improved optics and IS.


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## Deleted member 91053 (May 8, 2019)

A while back I was told by a Canon Rep that there was quite a range of EOS R lenses ready for production. I know Andy is playing with the R system - perhaps it is one of these?

Alternatively there should be a 500 F4 Mk3 in the pipeline and, possibly, an 800 F5.6 Mk2. Time will tell but it is fun to speculate.


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## Pape (May 9, 2019)

I got dream last night ,maybe its 32mpixel M5ii with new Ef-M fluorite and DO element 500mm 5,6 what weights half kg and 20cm long.
Kit Price 2k.
ohh missed earlier comments ok 300mm f4 10cm long and 0,5kg


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## Pape (May 9, 2019)

32 mpixel rebel crop camera and EF-M 300mm f4 with image quality what is better than old EF 300m f4 IS .
And who remembers there used to be 7d serie. Most of peoples wont take pics on rain and dust storm or live mad moist% areas.


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## AlanF (May 10, 2019)

Pape said:


> 32 mpixel rebel crop camera and EF-M 300mm f4 with image quality what is better than old EF 300m f4 IS .
> And who remembers there used to be 7d serie. Most of peoples wont take pics on rain and dust storm or live mad moist% areas.


I would have bought a Rebel as a back up but they don't have AFMA. Not a serious drawback for general purpose use but when you are trying to take full advantage of a high resolution lens, AFMA can be very important. Mirrorless does have certain advantages.


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## Pape (May 10, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I would have bought a Rebel as a back up but they don't have AFMA. Not a serious drawback for general purpose use but when you are trying to take full advantage of a high resolution lens, AFMA can be very important. Mirrorless does have certain advantages.


Thanks Alan ,good thing to know!


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## kaihp (May 10, 2019)

Looks like it's a new body, as he wrote on instagram that "By the end of the encounter I had to take the motor drive speed down from 30 fps to 5fps as I was taking too many sharp shots"

Source:

__
http://instagr.am/p/BxRU3CplZK1/


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## Del Paso (May 10, 2019)

I guess the camera was the "R Sports" which has been mentioned recently on Canon Rumors.
30 fps sound very promising, provided he didn't mean video!


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## StoicalEtcher (May 11, 2019)

Del Paso said:


> I guess the camera was the "R Sports" which has been mentioned recently on Canon Rumors.
> 30 fps sound very promising, provided he didn't mean video!


Yes - I think 30 fps is somewhat unlikely, even for a new 1DX III ! 

I wonder what 30 fps must mean for throughput too?


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## koenkooi (May 11, 2019)

StoicalEtcher said:


> Yes - I think 30 fps is somewhat unlikely, even for a new 1DX III !
> 
> I wonder what 30 fps must mean for throughput too?



I would think non-cropped video


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## SecureGSM (May 11, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> I would think non-cropped video


you do not shoot your video at 5 fps, do you  this is a S*** A9 competitor, by the sound of it.


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## StoicalEtcher (May 11, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> I would think non-cropped video


Yes- could be - but by the way Andy Rouse mentions "shots", I'm thinking this must be a stills-at-30-fps monster. Did you mean that perhaps with that throughput it would also be capable of non-cropped video?

Stoical.


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## koenkooi (May 11, 2019)

StoicalEtcher said:


> Yes- could be - but by the way Andy Rouse mentions "shots", I'm thinking this must be a stills-at-30-fps monster. Did you mean that perhaps with that throughput it would also be capable of non-cropped video?



Yes, if it can do stills at 30fps, presumably full resolution stills, full width video shouldn't be a problem. But the problem I have with 4k on the existing models is not the crop, it's the lack of autofocus. Canon only included auto-unfocus


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## Joules (May 11, 2019)

I don't see how he could be talking about video frame rate. First, getting to many sharp shots isn't a reason to reduce your video framerate. And secondly, who on earth uses "motor drive speed" in the context of digital video?

Wonder when we might see what that gear really is. Rumour has it that no new R cameras are coming this year. If this is R related, would Canon allow their testers to hype up a camera so long before it launches?

Or could this be the 80D/7D replacement?


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## Mikehit (May 11, 2019)

R1-7D said:


> So it looks like it’s a camera. Andy posted two more images, as seen below. He puts some exif data along with them, such as the focal length of the lens and aperture/shutter speed, etc.



His comments about catching the full sequence make me think it has something like the 'pre-capture' (Panasonic) or 'Procapture' (Olympus) where, when you half-press the shutter it starts buffering images then when you press the full shutter, it takes the picture and also saves the 30 previous (buffered) photos.
This would not only be very, very nice for wildlife it also suggests they have made improvements in their sensor and/or processor capabilities.


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## SecureGSM (May 12, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> Yes, if it can do stills at 30fps, presumably full resolution stills, full width video shouldn't be a problem. But the problem I have with 4k on the existing models is not the crop, it's the lack of autofocus. Canon only included auto-unfocus



Heat dissipation may be a problem with a full frame 4K video. Interesting times though.


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## koenkooi (May 12, 2019)

Joules said:


> I don't see how he could be talking about video frame rate. [..]



He isn't, I'm just saying that if you can take full ress stills at 30fps there isn't an excuse for a crop factor in video anymore.


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## Pape (May 12, 2019)

if its 32mpix sensor they could sell it approximately k8 
~8k


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## fentiger (May 12, 2019)

this is sounding like a serious bit of kit! your going to need to upgrade your computing power by 100 fold just to store your photos. may be adobe should do a 100 terabyte plan for 9.99 a month


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## Pape (May 12, 2019)

fentiger said:


> this is sounding like a serious bit of kit! your going to need to upgrade your computing power by 100 fold just to store your photos. may be adobe should do a 100 terabyte plan for 9.99 a month


yep you spend more time with deleting pictures than actually taking them  ,couple minute action and youll get 2000 picture you need look through.


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## 3kramd5 (May 12, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> He isn't, I'm just saying that if you can take full ress stills at 30fps there isn't an excuse for a crop factor in video anymore.


Taking all these inferences from a vague instagram post as fact...

Not necessarily. The ability to burst briefly is not the same as sustained capture.


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## Sharlin (May 12, 2019)

30fps burst rate would mean roughly twice the throughput of the 1DX2, all things being equal. I think it's safe to say that that's not going to happen. Not without a catch anyway. If I had to guess it's similar to the 4K frame grab feature in the 1DX2 but stores the JPEGs separately instead of packaging them in an MJPEG container. Maybe it can even do RAWs. But reduced resolution, almost certainly.


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## 3kramd5 (May 12, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> 30fps burst rate would mean roughly twice the throughput of the 1DX2, all things being equal. I think it's safe to say that that's not going to happen.



It isn’t infeasible.

A “catch” could be lack of autofocus between frames, a’la 1DmkIV.


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## Sharlin (May 12, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> It isn’t infeasible.
> 
> A “catch” could be lack of autofocus between frames, a’la 1DmkIV.



The 1DX2 lacks continuous AF in the ”mirrorless” 16fps mode. But the difference between 14 and 16fps is not huge. 

No other Canon body has throughput even close to the 1DX’s. A non-flagship mirrorless isn’t going to suddenly surpass them.


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## 3kramd5 (May 12, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> The 1DX2 lacks continuous AF in the ”mirrorless” 16fps mode. But the difference between 14 and 16fps is not huge.
> 
> No other Canon body has throughput even close to the 1DX’s. A non-flagship mirrorless isn’t going to suddenly surpass them.


Who says this isn’t a flagship? It’s all conjecture.


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## Pape (May 13, 2019)

R or M flagship . is it even possible 30fps for mirror? 
It doesnt take long use mirror lifespan with 30fps


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## Michael Clark (May 13, 2019)

Joules said:


> I don't see how he could be talking about video frame rate. First, getting to many sharp shots isn't a reason to reduce your video framerate. And secondly, who on earth uses "motor drive speed" in the context of digital video?
> 
> Wonder when we might see what that gear really is. Rumour has it that no new R cameras are coming this year. If this is R related, would Canon allow their testers to hype up a camera so long before it launches?
> 
> Or could this be the 80D/7D replacement?



Someone who started shooting back in the dark ages when what we now call "continuous frames per second" was called "motor drive speed." He's not talking about digital video.


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## fentiger (May 13, 2019)

Andy Rouse is a top wildlife and aviation photographer, and canon ambassador. (well here in the UK)
He was one of the 1st to be given the 1DX2 and the 200-400f4 to evaluate.
the fact that he has tweeted 30fps must be at the concent of Canon, one can assume canon have a working replacement for the 1DX2.
and is in a advance state of production, what we don't know if it has a mirror or not. may be someone could ask Mr Tiger if he hear any mirror slap.


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## Sharlin (May 13, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Who says this isn’t a flagship? It’s all conjecture.



Based on rumors it's more likely that the 1DX3 will be a DSLR and there's no flagship mirrorless body even remotely ready for testing. Conjecture is based on available evidence, not just random ideas.


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## Kit. (May 13, 2019)

Pape said:


> R or M flagship . is it even possible 30fps for mirror?
> It doesnt take long use mirror lifespan with 30fps


Mirror lockup is not that really taxing.


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## Bafty (May 13, 2019)

Was reading this thread with interest so much so I’ve decided to register and comment….

Was stood next to Andy Rouse recently at the end of March for the high tide Short-eared Owls extravaganza at Parkgate on the Dee where he was using a EOS R (type) camera + 600mm f4, there were also a fare few 1DX2’s used by others so a good benchmark. When he fired a burst the fps was significantly more than 14 fps of the IDX2 which I commented at the time and way above the 8 fps of the standard EOS R.


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## 3kramd5 (May 13, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Based on rumors it's more likely that the 1DX3 will be a DSLR and there's no flagship mirrorless body even remotely ready for testing. Conjecture is based on available evidence, not just random ideas.


The incomplete evidence in this situation being an Instagram post which suggests a 30FPS camera. 

After getting people all spun up, I’m going to laugh really hard if he’s playing with a prototype Sony a9ii.

BTW which rumors speak to the state of canon prototypes?


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## Sharlin (May 13, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> BTW which rumors speak to the state of canon prototypes?



This one mostly, among a couple other older ones. But besides rumors, what Canon has actually brought to table (the R and the RP) seems to indicate that they are far from achieving 1D-level throughput with continuous DPAF autofocus, never mind 30fps full-sensor shooting with full AF.

I'm somewhat confused by the candidness of these tweets. Typically Canon beta testers have kept _really_ quiet about the hardware they're testing, and are no doubt heavily NDA'd.


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## 3kramd5 (May 13, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> This one mostly, among a couple other older ones. But besides rumors, what Canon has actually brought to table (the R and the RP) seems to indicate that they are far from achieving 1D-level throughput with continuous DPAF autofocus, never mind 30fps full-sensor shooting with full AF.
> 
> I'm somewhat confused by the candidness of these tweets. Typically Canon beta testers have kept _really_ quiet about the hardware they're testing, and are no doubt heavily NDA'd.



I don’t see anything about prototypes there, but if they’re bringing out two cameras in 2020 I’d bet they have fairly mature working prototypes.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (May 13, 2019)

> Canon UK ambassador Andy Rouse has been active on Instagram apparently teasing a new camera body. I would think he’s not out using another company’s gear, so what could he be talking about?
> He mentions using “new kit” and saying “I had to take the motor drive speed down from 30 fps to 5fps as I was taking too many sharp shots”
> So what could he be teasing and/or testing? The obvious answer would be the upcoming Canon EOS-1D X Mark III. Andy was one of the early testers of the Canon EOS-1D X Mark II, so that’s not too much of a leap to assume.
> There’s also a possibility he’s testing out the new 32.5mp APS-C shooter that’s coming, but this is less likely. The mention of shooting stills at 30fps would probably be far too taxing for a 32.5mp APS-C camera, as the throughput required would be quite high.
> Is it possible that the EOS-1D X Mark III will shoot 30fps with...



Continue reading...


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## crazyrunner33 (May 13, 2019)

This sounds a lot like selecting 6K photo mode on the GH5's drive mode dial. It's just a 6K (18 megapixel) video that's 5 seconds long that you can pull frames from. An advantage to dropping down to 5 fps would be either a longer bust time or increase in quality.


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## AlanF (May 13, 2019)

Bafty said:


> Was reading this thread with interest so much so I’ve decided to register and comment….
> 
> Was stood next to Andy Rouse recently at the end of March for the high tide Short-eared Owls extravaganza at Parkgate on the Dee where he was using a EOS R (type) camera + 600mm f4, there were also a fare few 1DX2’s used by others so a good benchmark. When he fired a burst the fps was significantly more than 14 fps of the IDX2 which I commented at the time and way above the 8 fps of the standard EOS R.


Thanks for this. It's a most relevant comment.


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## Jack Douglas (May 13, 2019)

So Alan, will you be buying?  Remember, by switching Artie became a BIF guru ... I think ... I quit following at that time though, so really don't know.

What I can say from personal experience is that I have many shots with the 1DX2 where the focus point aligns perfectly with where it was supposed to be, but the shot is not in focus/sharp. This can be partially explained by my AF settings and lack of steadiness but not fully. I'd say that the 1DX2 is somewhat challenged to keep up focus with high speed subjects. Now if I could be attached to Andy's coat tails I'd probably have a very different perspective - like the problem is mostly me. 

Jack


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## AlanF (May 13, 2019)

Jack Douglas said:


> So Alan, will you be buying?  Remember, by switching Artie became a BIF guru ... I think ... I quit following at that time though, so really don't know.
> 
> What I can say from personal experience is that I have many shots with the 1DX2 where the focus point aligns perfectly with where it was supposed to be, but the shot is not in focus/sharp. This can be partially explained by my AF settings and lack of steadiness but not fully. I'd say that the 1DX2 is somewhat challenged to keep up focus with high speed subjects. Now if I could be attached to Andy's coat tails I'd probably have a very different perspective - like the problem is mostly me.
> 
> Jack


Jack, I am in the market for something interesting. A high resolution FF or APS-C would turn me on. A Canon that could emulate Olympus or Panasonic by continuously storing 20 frames before I press the button would make me get out my Amex card too. We would both like a Nikon-like AF that detects and focusses on movement. Eye detection of a BIF rather than a flapping wing would be most welcome.


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## amorse (May 13, 2019)

So peeking over some of his recent instagram posts, he talks a bit about why he likes mirrorless, being able to autofocus in very low light/difficult conditions, 30 fps burst speed (and having too many sharp images from that speed), knowing how your autofocus kit works in different situations, and testing new kit. All the while, suggesting not to ask him about kit because he can't say anything. 

That's all fairly leading, don't you think? Maybe this is the long lead up for a promotional campaign for pro-ish higher speed/lower res mirrorless camera that isn't a direct replacement for a 1DX ii. Or maybe the 1DX iii has a hybrid viewfinder and can perform some function as a mirrorless camera as well. Certainly a weird set of comments to try and draw conclusions from.


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## amorse (May 13, 2019)

I took another look at some of those posts, and he's saying it isn't a 1DXiii. Check out these comments attached. A lot of his stuff from earlier this year were with an EOS R, so maybe it is some sort of new mirrorless body...


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## Sharlin (May 13, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> I don’t see anything about prototypes there, but if they’re bringing out two cameras in 2020 I’d bet they have fairly mature working prototypes.



Yes, certainly, and I presume he’s teasing the rumored “sports” R model here. But that one’s not a 1Dx2 replacement according to what we know, rather a ”little brother” like the 7D2. So I’m sure there’s some sort of a catch here. 

Indeed, I wonder if it’s entirely a good idea to tease like that, leading half the internet to think there will be a 30fps full-res burst mode, only to be disappointed by the reality when the camera launches.


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## GMCPhotographics (May 13, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> 30fps burst rate would mean roughly twice the throughput of the 1DX2, all things being equal. I think it's safe to say that that's not going to happen. Not without a catch anyway. If I had to guess it's similar to the 4K frame grab feature in the 1DX2 but stores the JPEGs separately instead of packaging them in an MJPEG container. Maybe it can even do RAWs. But reduced resolution, almost certainly.


The 1Dx II used a Dual Digic 6+ processor. Canon have moved on two models later to a Digic 8...so if a Dual Digic 8+ then yes it's feasible. 1DxII 20.2*16 = 323 mp/s. A Dual Digic 7+ should be good for a 1.4x increase...so that's 452mp/s (28mp @ 16fps or 22.6 mp @ 20 fps). Using the same historical formula, a Dual Digic 8+ should be good for 1.4x that...633 mp/s...which is insane processing through put. 30 fps @ 21mp.


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## GMCPhotographics (May 13, 2019)

amorse said:


> I took another look at some of those posts, and he's saying it isn't a 1DXiii. Check out these comments attached. A lot of his stuff from earlier this year were with an EOS R, so maybe it is some sort of new mirrorless body...



Yeah...Andy is very good at yanking peoples chain. He's a nice guy...quite amusing but best in small doses....


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## unfocused (May 13, 2019)

Very curious posts. I don't understand the use of "motor drive." No digital camera uses or needs a motor drive. Motor drives being bolt-on accessories means he could be referencing a new type of grip/camera combo. Or, he could just be misusing the term. Also, looking at the images of the tiger and the cuckoo, I'm trying to reconcile his claim they were shot with a 300 mm lens. They seem awfully close for that focal length (dangerously close in the case of the tiger), which has me wondering if its an APS-C camera.


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## liv_img (May 13, 2019)

I think nobody would like this, but maybe is an Olympus OM-D E-M1X: He says is a mirrorless, he says 30 photos/sec, he works only with a 300mm/4 (Like Zuiko Pro 300mm/4, equivalent to 600mm, good for tigers and cuckos in flight), and he is crossing commentaries in his Facebook with Jari Peltomaki, Olympus ambassador in Europe for years. And in one photo in Facebook he is lying on the ground with a small camera on his hands with flat sides pentaprism, like Olympus. Hope is not true, as I would prefer he is testing a new Canon R Sports.


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## Ozarker (May 13, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Based on rumors it's more likely that the 1DX3 will be a DSLR and there's no flagship mirrorless body even remotely ready for testing. Conjecture is based on available evidence, not just random ideas.


A 1DX Mark III has to be a DSLR, or it would not be a 1DX Mark III.


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## Architect1776 (May 13, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> This one mostly, among a couple other older ones. But besides rumors, what Canon has actually brought to table (the R and the RP) seems to indicate that they are far from achieving 1D-level throughput with continuous DPAF autofocus, never mind 30fps full-sensor shooting with full AF.
> 
> I'm somewhat confused by the candidness of these tweets. Typically Canon beta testers have kept _really_ quiet about the hardware they're testing, and are no doubt heavily NDA'd.



I would suspect that this is Canon looking at future Sony a9 etc. and wanting to assure canon users that there is a real pro camera being tested right now. If too tight lipped for too long too many will jump ship and then it is hard to get them back. Just ask Nikon that is still struggling after Canon crushed them with the EF system. Nikon assumed that their pros would stick with them yet they were abandoned in droves until their pro market was left to rich amateurs rather than the pros along the sidelines and at major events.
It sounds like canon is trying to get ahead of that mass exodus.


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## jvillain (May 13, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> He isn't, I'm just saying that if you can take full ress stills at 30fps there isn't an excuse for a crop factor in video anymore.


Don't underestimate Canon. They can always find an excuse for a crop.


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## slclick (May 13, 2019)

Sharp shots. Why can't that be clear to everyone?

Why you could deduce video from this is inanity. I guess people just want to talk video? 

Like bringing up 'Where's the new G7Xiii' in a thread about ballheads..


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## Sharlin (May 13, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> A 1DX Mark III has to be a DSLR, or it would not be a 1DX Mark III.



Yes, of course, but I meant figuratively any 1DX2 replacement, whether a direct successor or not.


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## mb66energy (May 13, 2019)

What about a hybrid camera that has OVF but - while the mirror is up - can present an EVF for situations where you do not want a slapping mirror or need DPAF through the viewfinder (EDIT: forgotten video which is maybe important for journalists)? Or if the mirror speed is the limiting factor for fps? Would my old dream come true? There was a patent which might describe such a solution too.

Very flexible VF system + soft migration path for DSLR shooters ...

While such a solution is complex and expensive it might be swallowed by the generally high price level of the 1D x series.

Just my 2 ct.


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## Trey T (May 13, 2019)

R1-7D said:


> He’s a Canon Ambassador in the UK.


Isn't there a bunch of Canon Ambassador on here?


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## mb66energy (May 13, 2019)

Trey T said:


> Isn't there a bunch of Canon Ambassador on here?


Me not - just a satisfied user of their gear.


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## Speedy.HVR (May 13, 2019)

What's this lens 80-150 f 2,8 ?


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## caffetin (May 13, 2019)

Just wait people.


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## ketsang (May 13, 2019)

Speedy.HVR said:


> What's this lens 80-150 f 2,8 ?



80-150mm on FF is not going to get you that close to a tiger. Don't get too excited


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## snappy604 (May 13, 2019)

liv_img said:


> I think nobody would like this, but maybe is an Olympus OM-D E-M1X: He says is a mirrorless, he says 30 photos/sec, he works only with a 300mm/4 (Like Zuiko Pro 300mm/4, equivalent to 600mm, good for tigers and cuckos in flight), and he is crossing commentaries in his Facebook with Jari Peltomaki, Olympus ambassador in Europe for years. And in one photo in Facebook he is lying on the ground with a small camera on his hands with flat sides pentaprism, like Olympus. Hope is not true, as I would prefer he is testing a new Canon R Sports.


maybe someone should ask him if it is Canon? he can't say model, but maybe he can confirm brand...


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## navastronia (May 13, 2019)

amorse said:


> I took another look at some of those posts, and he's saying it isn't a 1DXiii. Check out these comments attached. A lot of his stuff from earlier this year were with an EOS R, so maybe it is some sort of new mirrorless body...


 
Whaaaaat? This seems awfully direct. He seems to be saying that there is no reason for a 1DXmiii to exist, which points to a pro Canon mirrorless body being ready to go


----------



## navastronia (May 13, 2019)

liv_img said:


> I think nobody would like this, but maybe is an Olympus OM-D E-M1X: He says is a mirrorless, he says 30 photos/sec, he works only with a 300mm/4 (Like Zuiko Pro 300mm/4, equivalent to 600mm, good for tigers and cuckos in flight), and he is crossing commentaries in his Facebook with Jari Peltomaki, Olympus ambassador in Europe for years. And in one photo in Facebook he is lying on the ground with a small camera on his hands with flat sides pentaprism, like Olympus. Hope is not true, as I would prefer he is testing a new Canon R Sports.



Oh man, that would be brutal.


----------



## Bahrd (May 13, 2019)

R1-7D said:


> Makes me wonder if this is possibly the new aps-c camera he’s testing.



I've thought everybody on this forum can tell an FF picture from an APS-C one!


----------



## ketsang (May 13, 2019)

Speedy.HVR said:


> What's this lens 80-150 f 2,8 ?



Probably meant to be Olympus 40-150mm f2.8 and he was using Olympus _OM-D E-M1X_ .


----------



## Speedy.HVR (May 13, 2019)

ketsang said:


> 80-150mm on FF is not going to get you that close to a tiger. Don't get too excited


I'm not excited but rather curious what this lens is )
Because i am not shure it is a Canono lens, maybe mentioned Olympus kit? I really hope not...


----------



## Speedy.HVR (May 13, 2019)

ketsang said:


> Probably meant to be Olympus 40-150mm f2.8 and he was using Olympus _OM-D E-M1X_ .


yep


----------



## liv_img (May 13, 2019)

ketsang said:


> 80-150mm on FF is not going to get you that close to a tiger. Don't get too excited


I'm afraid it's the Olympus 40-150mm f:2.8 Pro (Equiv. to 80-300mm 2.8)


----------



## Cryve (May 13, 2019)

ketsang said:


> Probably meant to be Olympus 40-150mm f2.8 and he was using Olympus _OM-D E-M1X_ .



And he cant talk about it or say its name because he is a canon ambasador.
Case closed


----------



## Rixy (May 13, 2019)




----------



## 3kramd5 (May 13, 2019)

GMCPhotographics said:


> The 1Dx II used a Dual Digic 6+ processor. Canon have moved on two models later to a Digic 8...so if a Dual Digic 8+ then yes it's feasible. 1DxII 20.2*16 = 323 mp/s. A Dual Digic 7+ should be good for a 1.4x increase...so that's 452mp/s (28mp @ 16fps or 22.6 mp @ 20 fps). Using the same historical formula, a Dual Digic 8+ should be good for 1.4x that...633 mp/s...which is insane processing through put. 30 fps @ 21mp.


Full sensor readout at that rate is the bigger challenge.


----------



## masterpix (May 13, 2019)

I always wandered why no one chose me to do those tests.. A free camera, everyone wants to hear what I have to say about it. I would even do it for free (as long I get to keep it in the end), Hope someone hears me...


----------



## Tugela (May 13, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Lebs soeed
> 
> Full sensor readout at that rate is the bigger challenge.



Why? Oversampled sensors on video cameras do this routinely. At even higher data rates in fact.

30 fps is unlikely with a mirror though. It could possibly be a pro R camera. If he is shooting long he would need to use EF lenses because there are no long R lenses, so him not using R lenses does not exclude a R body.


----------



## scyrene (May 13, 2019)

I'm more interested in where one can go to reliably get close shots of an adult cuckoo!


----------



## 3kramd5 (May 13, 2019)

Tugela said:


> Why?



I’m not sure why. Pixel count maybe?


----------



## Adelino (May 13, 2019)

scyrene said:


> I'm more interested in where one can go to reliably get close shots of an adult cuckoo!


New Mexico? Road Runners are a type of cuckoo.


----------



## 3kramd5 (May 13, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> After getting people all spun up, I’m going to laugh really hard if he’s playing with a prototype Sony a9ii.





liv_img said:


> I think nobody would like this, but maybe is an Olympus OM-D E-M1X



Or that; that would also be amusing.


----------



## Jack Douglas (May 13, 2019)

Interesting, the various conclusions that can be drawn from little or no information! Great fun though.

Jack


----------



## Apocalypseking15 (May 13, 2019)

Lets hope the Canon 90D get here soon or i'm personally going to the 5DM4 30 ff megapixels looks great for me


----------



## miketcool (May 13, 2019)

Rixy said:


> View attachment 184532



It's a Nikon DSLR or a Sony MILC.

Canon is far too conservative to let an ambassador market virally like this. They may prove me wrong, but there is a stronger history of Sony poaching wildlife professionals by buying their influence.


----------



## Tugela (May 13, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> I’m not sure why. Pixel count maybe?



Oversampled video on cameras such as Panasonic and Sony have just as many pixels, and they shoot at 30fps, some even at 60fps.

Some Sony cameras already shoot 24 fps stills with AF/AE tracking, even small point and shoots like the RX100V, and that is a few years old, it is not something special. I expect that the next generation processors will be even faster than that.


----------



## 3kramd5 (May 13, 2019)

Tugela said:


> Oversampled video on cameras such as Panasonic and Sony have just as many pixels, and they shoot at 30fps, some even at 60fps.
> 
> Some Sony cameras already shoot 24 fps stills with AF/AE tracking, even small point and shoots like the RX100V, and that is a few years old, it is not something special. I expect that the next generation processors will be even faster than that.



Not long so ago sony’s A7R sensor was released with a spec sheet max of 5FPS. They currently list as many as 60FPS and as little as 4FPS for full pixel readout.

Unfortunately canon doesn’t sell retail sensors so this data isn’t available.


----------



## Tugela (May 13, 2019)

miketcool said:


> It's a Nikon DSLR or a Sony MILC.
> 
> Canon is far too conservative to let an ambassador market virally like this. They may prove me wrong, but there is a stronger history of Sony poaching wildlife professionals by buying their influence.



Unlikely. There is not much chance of them letting a current Canon insider have access to pre-release systems. It is far more likely to be something like the pro-R that is rumored.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (May 13, 2019)

Sorry for my intrusion. Please somebody tell me in a few words. Is Canon ******* this time?


----------



## HarryFilm (May 13, 2019)

Pape said:


> I got dream last night ,maybe its 32mpixel M5ii with new Ef-M fluorite and DO element 500mm 5,6 what weights half kg and 20cm long.
> Kit Price 2k.
> ohh missed earlier comments ok 300mm f4 10cm long and 0,5kg




===

While Canon seems right now to be scattershotting it's camera offerings with lightly-featured cameras mated to good glass, if I was Canon management I would be FAR MORE WORRIED about cameras that can do things like the attached photos which were taken off SMARTPHONES !!!! (this one is an oldie but goodie Nokia Lumia 1520!)

If a smartphone with a TINY SENSOR can do this, IMAGINE what's going to happen to the lower end of the MILC/DSLR market when Sony introduces their 2/3rds inch and APS-C sensor xPeria Smartphones?!

Then add on that new upcoming Sony Medium Format Sensor equipped combined-operations 50.3 megapixel stills/8192x4320 pixel Video camera coming out soon enough!

If I was Canon, the worry lines would be deeply furrowed by what Sony is bringing to the table for the LOW END and the HIGH END of stills and video imagery!

Again Canon, you NEED to catch up on large sensor smartphones AND full-featured smal-form factor MILC/DSLR !!!
.
P.S. Canon is DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED !!!!!!

.


----------



## Tugela (May 14, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Not long so ago sony’s A7R sensor was released with a spec sheet max of 5FPS.



That is not the sensor read speed, those are specs which are determined by the processor and LSI. The versions used on the most recent Sony cameras are much more capable. The sensor read speed is determined by the video specs, and we know that current systems do oversampled 4K at 30fps, meaning that they read the entire sensor and downsample from that to generate a 4K image. Sony does a full sensor read at 30 fps on a 24 mpixel sensor, Samsung did it with a 28 mpixel sensor. Panasonic does 60 fps on a 20 mpixel sensor.

So, those sorts of frame rates are not unreasonable for a next gen camera from Canon. It would have to be a MILC or live view at least, however, I can't see them getting away flapping a mirror at those rates.


----------



## 3kramd5 (May 14, 2019)

Tugela said:


> That is not the sensor read speed, those are specs which are determined by the processor and LSI.



Why do you think that? These are sensor datasheets.

What processing power is brought to bear will affect how a camera will make use of it, but the sensor has an independent limit. Perhaps it has to do with the ADC architecture.


----------



## Perio (May 14, 2019)

Whatever it is (DSLR or mirrorless), 30 fps is unbelievable. Virtually, it's the same as recording a video at 30 fps.


----------



## LSXPhotog (May 14, 2019)

Judging from his posts, this is a mirrorless. When he makes a post with his 1DX, he tags the 1DX. When he posts with the secret camera, he doesn't name the camera. But he made a comment about the benefits of the EVF...and commented on how there is no RF telephoto lenses. So it has me leaning toward it being an RF mount camera that likely has a crop mode that can shoot at a higher frame rate, or it's a sports APS-C mirrorless...the additional comments about noise performance make me really think it's an APS-C mirrorless/crop mode. Either way, it's pretty exciting.


----------



## Ozarker (May 14, 2019)

I have seen mentioned how a mirror limits fps. While that might be true of current designs, I am not so sure the fact that it is mechanical is the reason. There are plenty of mechanical products that move at extremely high speeds with fantastic longevity and durability. Either way... may the force be with Canon.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (May 14, 2019)

1DXIII will get hybrid sensor, shooting 16fps with mechanical shutter and 30fps with e-shutter. Not beyond current sensor tech to read a sensor that fast, well at least for Sony that is and Olympus offer 60fps with large caveats and Fuji 30fps with caveats too. 

I would love Canon to get a sensor from Sony and just worry about making the camera awesome and getting their AF back to the best. Of course I couldn't really care less about 30fps, I rarely use the 20fps mode on my A9 and often shot my 1DX at 8 and 10fps. There would only be a few instances I would use such speeds. It would require huge processing power with tracking though and hard to see Canon go from 2-3fps in EOS R to 30fps within the next 3 generations.


----------



## R1-7D (May 14, 2019)

Cool! My detective work and thread are on the main page!


----------



## Quarkcharmed (May 14, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ===
> If a smartphone with a TINY SENSOR can do this, IMAGINE what's going to happen to the lower end of the MILC/DSLR market when Sony introduces their 2/3rds inch and APS-C sensor xPeria Smartphones?!



Harry your smartphone shots are quite mediocre to be honest, both composition and IQ-wise, and barely can be used to demonstrate the superiority of smartphones.


----------



## Sharlin (May 14, 2019)

LSXPhotog said:


> Judging from his posts, this is a mirrorless. When he makes a post with his 1DX, he tags the 1DX. When he posts with the secret camera, he doesn't name the camera. But he made a comment about the benefits of the EVF...and commented on how there is no RF telephoto lenses. So it has me leaning toward it being an RF mount camera that likely has a crop mode that can shoot at a higher frame rate, or it's a sports APS-C mirrorless...the additional comments about noise performance make me really think it's an APS-C mirrorless/crop mode. Either way, it's pretty exciting.



By now it’s pretty clear that he’s talking about an Olympus camera. Nothing to see here.


----------



## 3kramd5 (May 14, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> By now it’s pretty clear that he’s talking about an Olympus camera. Nothing to see here.


Nothing to see here? Aside from some cool photographs, I guess. And an excellent demonstration of tribalism.


----------



## GoldWing (May 14, 2019)

R1-7D said:


> In his tweet thread he specifically said this image was not taken with RF glass; he said none of the upcoming lenses are long enough.
> 
> I wonder if it’s either a new 300 f/2.8 or 500 f/4...



The image is very good! Must be the 300


----------



## Quarkcharmed (May 14, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> By now it’s pretty clear that he’s talking about an Olympus camera. Nothing to see here.


It's unlikely for a Canon ambassador to use and tease with a non-Canon gear, unless he's broken up with Canon already.


----------



## LSXPhotog (May 14, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> By now it’s pretty clear that he’s talking about an Olympus camera. Nothing to see here.





Quarkcharmed said:


> It's unlikely for a Canon ambassador to use and tease with a non-Canon gear, unless he's broken up with Canon already.



It appears that he’s no longer listing himself as a Canon ambassador so he’s moving on to the next company to pay him to shoot. LOL

The cryptic nature of his posts really had me going and I looked at all the details, but I didn’t read all the comments. He appears to be testing some new Olympus lenses that haven’t been released either...or he’s adapting Canon glass. With a speed booster it could be a little monster for sure.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (May 14, 2019)

LSXPhotog said:


> It appeas that he’s no longer listing himself as a Canon ambassador so he’s moving on to the next company to pay him to shoot. LOL



Ah! Very true then. This thread is on the wrong forum. Had to be olympusrumours. No hope for Canon anticipators.


----------



## raptor3x (May 14, 2019)

Rixy said:


> View attachment 184532



This shot definitely makes me think it could be an E-M1X + 300 Pro lens. The heavily ringed bokeh on the branches at the bottom is very characteristic of the Olympus lenses. The E-M1X doesn't do 30fps with C-AF/AI-Servo though so it's definitely not a sure thing.


----------



## HarryFilm (May 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Harry your smartphone shots are quite mediocre to be honest, both composition and IQ-wise, and barely can be used to demonstrate the superiority of smartphones.



Hmmmm....perhaps you could so eloquently describe to me in your own words as to WHAT specific issues are with my photos that are so mediocre in terms of composition? They ARE MERELY flower photos. What could one possibly do to elevate them in your professional estimation?

The IQ part is up to the phone not me! A Nokia Lumia 1520 is from 2013 so I would say for its time, that phone's IQ is actually quite outstanding, if a bit too highly colour saturated!
.
Please do elaborate or at least SHOW ME some OUTSTANDING PHOTOS from you so that I may learn from some of the best in the business!
.


----------



## raptor3x (May 14, 2019)

LSXPhotog said:


> It appeas that he’s no longer listing himself as a Canon ambassador so he’s moving on to the next company to pay him to shoot. LOL
> 
> The cryptic nature of his posts really had me going and I looked at all the details, but I didn’t read all the comments. He appears to be testing some new Olympus lenses that haven’t been released either...or he’s adapting Canon glass. With a speed booster it could be a little monster for sure.



He's probably testing the Olympus 150-400mm f/4.5, it's got a built in 1.25x TC which explains the 500mm shots.


----------



## goldenhusky (May 14, 2019)

Most likely the OM-D E-M1X. That beast is rated @ 60 fps and I did not find Andy Rouse in the list of Canon Ambassadors not that I have checked this before.





Ambassador Programme - Canon UK


All the amazing photographers who are in the Canon Europe Ambassadors Programme.




www.canon.co.uk


----------



## unfocused (May 14, 2019)

Canon periodically dumps ambassadors and some ambassadors jump ship. Scott Kelby was a Nikon guy until he became a Canon guy. I would not be at all surprised to learn that Mr. Rouse is using a micro four-thirds camera for these shots. As I mentioned earlier, the pictures look to be too close up for a full frame camera and even too close for a APS-C body.


----------



## R1-7D (May 14, 2019)

I also just want to point out that he, in one of his instagram posts, said that he was using a mirrorless camera. The Canon Rumors post says he's teasing a new DSLR, which I don't think is true.

See my post on the first page with the screenshots of his Instagram posts.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (May 14, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> Hmmmm....perhaps you could so eloquently describe to me in your own words as to WHAT specific issues are with my photos that are so mediocre in terms of composition? They ARE MERELY flower photos. What could one possibly do to elevate them in your professional estimation?
> 
> The IQ part is up to the phone not me! A Nokia Lumia 1520 is from 2013 so I would say for its time, that phone's IQ is actually quite outstanding, if a bit too highly colour saturated!



I wouldn't care of the quality but you stated Canon had to worry and catch up with smartphones. I don't like and I don't do flower photography anymore, but your images are far behind the high-quality flower photos. Poor light, noisy and busy chaotic background with random objects, bad cropping, and some of them are just out of focus.
In terms of the purely technical IQ, it's like other smartphone photos - colour banding, bad resolution/sharpness, noise.

Out of all those images, #2 'Delicate Detail Macro' looks the best perhaps, it's nice and has the best light, but has to be cropped to my taste as there's too much of the green blur.

That is, if they're just your smartphone shots - fine, but they're not something Canon should worry about and not something they need to catch up with.



HarryFilm said:


> Please do elaborate or at least SHOW ME some OUTSTANDING PHOTOS from you so that I may learn from some of the best in the business!
> .


My photos can be accessed from the links in my signature. Feel free to subscribe and follow


----------



## Quarkcharmed (May 14, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Canon periodically dumps ambassadors and some ambassadors jump ship.



He's got very nice nature/animal shots on his insta, probably worth following, but he's short of 50k followers and Canon wants at least 50k as we know...


----------



## Aussie shooter (May 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Ah! Very true then. This thread is on the wrong forum. Had to be olympusrumours. No hope for Canon anticipators.


I just searched Andy Rouse on Instagram and got an andy rouse with 'canon ambassador' next to his name. Edit. Just checked his facebook and he is definitely saying it isn't canon. Olympus is the best bet.


----------



## HarryFilm (May 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I wouldn't care of the quality but you stated Canon had to worry and catch up with smartphones. I don't like and I don't do flower photography anymore, but your images are far behind the high-quality flower photos. Poor light, noisy and busy chaotic background with random objects, bad cropping, and some of them are just out of focus.
> In terms of the purely technical IQ, it's like other smartphone photos - colour banding, bad resolution/sharpness, noise.
> 
> Out of all those images, #2 'Delicate Detail Macro' looks the best perhaps, it's nice and has the best light, but has to be cropped to my taste as there's too much of the green blur.
> ...



===

I do must admit that you ARE correct that the #2 Delicate Detail Macro is BEST and really shows how good a smartphone could be. I was surprised how it came out. However, I do think Canon DOES have to worry because as other posters have said, it's a 2mm plastic lens over a tiny, tiny sensor!

Now IMAGINE a 2/3rd inch sensor or an APS-C sensor on a SMARTPHONE !!!

Combine THAT with high-end computational photography software and somebody like Sony with its VAAAAAST experience in smartphones would literally pound Canon into the sand on it's low end camera line!

---

Again, while these new ones aren't great shots, they DO illustrate what a 2mm lens on a crappy 1.3 micron photosite sensor can do! So I do must disagree in that I say that Canon is NOW treading a very fine line into almost irrelevance on the low-end and may be pounded by Sony in the High End!

So the WARNING to Canon, is to START bring out decent mirrorless cameras with the FULL SET of features espoused in MANY forums and start making a dent in the higher-end lens areas before Sigma grows its share even more than it already has with its Art Series of SUPER-SHARP lenses at reasonable prices!
.
It's Your Choice Canon!

. 
The Market is Speaking Loudly and it is NOT in your favour right now!
.


----------



## R1-7D (May 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> He's got very nice nature/animal shots on his insta, probably worth following, but he's short of 50k followers and Canon wants at least 50k as we know...




I know there was a rumour that someone didn't become an ambassador for one of the big brands because they didn't have 50k followers, but I don't think it was Canon. Andy is, or was at least until very recently, a Canon Ambassador. He was thoroughly hawking the EOS R, even for wildlife, not too long ago.

Also, Marina Cano on Instagram is a Canon Ambassador and she only has 28K followers.


----------



## Pape (May 14, 2019)

I still think its olympus comparable M camera with new 300mm  would make sense then dropping 7d
Would be good move from canon to make crop camera with same pixel density than microfourthirds 
always can hope


----------



## raptor3x (May 14, 2019)

R1-7D said:


> I know there was a rumour that someone didn't become an ambassador for one of the big brands because they didn't have 50k followers, but I don't think it was Canon. Andy is, or was at least until very recently, a Canon Ambassador. He was thoroughly hawking the EOS R, even for wildlife, not too long ago.



He certainly seems to have changed his tune about the EOS R, definitely sounds like he's not part of the Canon family anymore.



Andy Rouse said:


> I’ve been using the R since October and it’s all over social media. *But it can’t do action in any form whatsoever* so no it’s not that. Yes it’s less than a normal camera because it’s mirrorless.


----------



## Pape (May 14, 2019)

raptor3x said:


> He certainly seems to have changed his tune about the EOS R, definitely sounds like he's not part of the Canon family anymore.


Does canon claims R is action camera?
i think andy just says obvious truth . its not action camera if action camera is meant something what bursts and doesnt viewfinder lag.
For me action camera is just camera what shoots when you press button instantly.but not for most peoples


----------



## R1-7D (May 14, 2019)

raptor3x said:


> He certainly seems to have changed his tune about the EOS R, definitely sounds like he's not part of the Canon family anymore.



You could be right. Look at this.


----------



## Pape (May 14, 2019)

R1-7D said:


> You could be right. Look at this.


or just means he is falling love to new camera he testing and never thinking going back to mirrors


----------



## Aussie shooter (May 14, 2019)

R1-7D said:


> I know there was a rumour that someone didn't become an ambassador for one of the big brands because they didn't have 50k followers, but I don't think it was Canon. Andy is, or was at least until very recently, a Canon Ambassador. He was thoroughly hawking the EOS R, even for wildlife, not too long ago.
> 
> Also, Marina Cano on Instagram is a Canon Ambassador and she only has 28K followers.



It was canon but I don't think it was an ambassador. I think it was someone they were going to get to do some photography and then turned her down when they realized she didn't have the required followers. As for the 'ambasadors'. I think the willingness they have to chop and change depending on who gives them gear and exposure shows a couple of things. 1. All current gear is excellent. 2. Ambassadors are not something anyone should really pay attention to.


----------



## DreDaze (May 14, 2019)

he straight up responds to someone that "it's not canon kit"...and if his instagram used to say he was a canon ambassador, it no longer does...it's gotta be another brand...


----------



## Joules (May 14, 2019)

It makes more sense that this is not a canon camera, based on the rumors.

After all, the only mirrorless camera we expect this year is the M5 II and maybe an upgrade to the M100 (what CR Guy called the M500).

And it does seem unlikely that the 32MP 90D/7D III will manage such framerates. That would far exceed the throughput of an A9!

Getting excited about Canon gear is an easy way to get disappointed, but I'm still hoping that push to 32 MP and merge of the 80D and 7D indicates that they managed to up their speed and features significantly.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (May 14, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> Now IMAGINE a 2/3rd inch sensor or an APS-C sensor on a SMARTPHONE !!!



It's not going to happen just because of how physics of light works. Larger sensor = more room needed between the sensor and the lens = thick smartphone = fail. 



HarryFilm said:


> Combine THAT with high-end computational photography software and somebody like Sony with its VAAAAAST experience in smartphones would literally pound Canon into the sand on it's low end camera line!



Low-end compact cameras - maybe. They're dying anyway. But smartphone quality will always be incomparable with APS-C or FF sensors, small sensor means less information and no computation can restore information that's just not there.



HarryFilm said:


> Again, while these new ones aren't great shots, they DO illustrate what a 2mm lens on a crappy 1.3 micron photosite sensor can do!



The last sunset landscape has awful technical quality even at the given small size, but if it's really a Samsung from 2012, it's fine. But at the same time it's not an threat-to-Canon illustration either. The first one with the flames looks nice, but the flames are blown out, it would look much nicer had there been more DR in the sensor.


----------



## eosuser1234 (May 14, 2019)

True global shutter points to the very clean flash sync in both of his photos. That is no HSS, that is real sync.


----------



## andyw (May 14, 2019)

I like Andy Rouse and his images and followed for a while. Digging over his posts further I thought there was a very interesting #tag on one of them #imbetterwithoutyou



It's easy to read too much into things and get 5 when trying to add 2 + 2 but it just looks like a trail of breadcrumbs building to something!

My gear is in a lower league to most but I like Canon for the size of the range and 2nd hand options. I believe he's swapped around in the past but it's a worry that somebody like Andy Rouse may be feeling the need to jump to a different brand as he must have some insight to the Canon road map and not like what's coming!


----------



## scyrene (May 14, 2019)

Adelino said:


> New Mexico? Road Runners are a type of cuckoo.



Ha!


----------



## ketsang (May 14, 2019)

andyw said:


> I like Andy Rouse and his images and followed for a while. Digging over his posts further I thought there was a very interesting #tag on one of them #imbetterwithoutyou
> View attachment 184551
> 
> 
> ...



Why worry if the currently available gears meet your need?
I can totally understand why wildlife photographers like Olympus. The difference in size and weight for the same reach is enormous. However, they will probably feel the pain when it gets dark!


----------



## scyrene (May 14, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ===
> 
> While Canon seems right now to be scattershotting it's camera offerings with lightly-featured cameras mated to good glass, if I was Canon management I would be FAR MORE WORRIED about cameras that can do things like the attached photos which were taken off SMARTPHONES !!!! (this one is an oldie but goodie Nokia Lumia 1520!)
> 
> If a smartphone with a TINY SENSOR can do this, IMAGINE what's going to happen to the lower end of the MILC/DSLR market when Sony introduces their 2/3rds inch and APS-C sensor xPeria Smartphones?!



Wait, I thought your contention was that one can take acceptable pictures with any camera? Now you seem to be saying that cheap smartphones can produce images as good as dedicated ILCs? I use my phone for a lot of shots and they have made massive strides in image quality, but there is very little overlap with e.g. a DSLR - and your images demonstrate that. The chief advantage of a phone is convenience. But colour depth, background separation, resolution (in terms of real detail resolved, rather than MP counts), DR, noise, control over shutter speed/focal length/aperture etc etc are all still orders of magnitude better in even the cheapest DSLR (or MILC). Most people don't care and/or couldn't tell the difference, but that is rather beside the point on these forums. Your contention that the near future of photography is a landscape of large-sensor smartphones and medium format ILCs is absurd and not borne out by any evidence that I can see here or elsewhere (and such a future is nowhere near in any case).



HarryFilm said:


> Hmmmm....perhaps you could so eloquently describe to me in your own words as to WHAT specific issues are with my photos that are so mediocre in terms of composition? They ARE MERELY flower photos. What could one possibly do to elevate them in your professional estimation?



I generally try to avoid being negative about other people's photos but since you ask, as if it's not obvious - the backgrounds are too busy, composition is essentially absent, your sky highlights are blown, and in the one with the bluebells what seems to be your primary subject isn't even properly in focus. These are adequate snaps for identifying plants, for recording ideas or inspiration for planting and so on, but they are indeed mediocre (though mediocrity isn't always bad!). Oh and 'merely flower photos' - a photo can have excellent composition or other qualities regardless of its subject matter.



HarryFilm said:


> The IQ part is up to the phone not me!



Precisely! A phone can produce images but cameras allow much greater control over the kind of images one can produce (though the gap is narrowing). We here on these forums are image creators, and the process by which images are made is important, not just the images that result.


----------



## scyrene (May 14, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ===
> 
> I do must admit that you ARE correct that the #2 Delicate Detail Macro is BEST and really shows how good a smartphone could be. I was surprised how it came out. However, I do think Canon DOES have to worry because as other posters have said, it's a 2mm plastic lens over a tiny, tiny sensor!
> 
> ...



Oh okay. You've resorted to 'kind of tongue-in-cheek but maybe you mean it' trolling. You always did spam these forums with nonsense, I shall pop you on my ignore list so as to be spared it in future.


----------



## Vivid1 (May 14, 2019)

Unfortunately it *seems *to be a non-Canon camera. If you read the comments on the flying cuckoo on his facebook, he says it is NOT a 1dx111, it is NOT a prototype Canon, it is NOT a D5; so maybe it is Sony or Panasonic; but Panasonic has just announced their flagship and it cannot do 30fps; so Sony then (A9 successor). Andy has changed systems before (Canon to Nikon and then back to Canon) so I will not be surprised. Or maybe he is just testing the new Sony and not changing systems? Who knows.... I still wish I had his job


----------



## baberraja (May 14, 2019)

He blocked me on Instagram after I asked him about it.


----------



## tron (May 14, 2019)

Since Sony was mentioned, the current RX10 MkIV has 24fps and a 8.8-220mm f/2.4-4 lens (equivalent 24-600) so how about a Sony RX10 Mk V with a lens up to 300mm at f/4 and 30fps?


----------



## AlanF (May 14, 2019)

tron said:


> Since Sony was mentioned, the current RX10 MkIV has 24fps and a 8.8-220mm f/2.4-4 lens (equivalent 24-600) so how about a Sony RX10 Mk V with a lens up to 300mm at f/4 and 30fps?


A 300mm f/4 on an RX10 is one of my dreams, if Zeiss could keep up the resolution. Actually, a new Canon 300mm f/4 is another dream.


----------



## Sharlin (May 14, 2019)

Vivid1 said:


> Unfortunately it *seems *to be a non-Canon camera.



You’re late. As has become quite clear in this thread, it’s most likely Olympus.


----------



## m4ndr4ke (May 14, 2019)

Definitely not Canon gear


----------



## tron (May 14, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> You’re late. As has become quite clear in this thread, it’s most likely Olympus.


Yes this is highly probable. And Olympus has already a 300mm f/4 lens...


----------



## tron (May 14, 2019)

... However a 4/3 sensor does not seem like a big deal to me however improved it is. I would rather use my "oldie but goody" 7D2 (or 5DsR) + 400 DO II as a portable setup combination.


----------



## ketsang (May 14, 2019)

This is why.


----------



## tron (May 14, 2019)

Apples with orranges! A 7D2 (or the 50mpixel 5DsR which has the same pixel density) would make it an effective 1344mm. And an adaptor (if it exists) with Olympus would make it an effective 1680mm.

However, I understand the small size and the light weight benefits that's why I mentioned above the 400DOII lens as my favorite portable combination. It combines the best of both worlds.


----------



## Mikehit (May 14, 2019)

m4ndr4ke said:


> Definitely not Canon gear



If you look at Andy's shots nowadays most of them are of the 'environmental' variety where fast action focussing and tracking are not essential - yes, he has the shot of a cuckoo in flight (in difficult circumstances!) but that is less his work nowadays. Also he is experienced enough to be able to get decently close to the animal which means that being large in the frame it will withstand being shown larger than most people will ever view it. And with subjects being large in the frame it also means that the Olympus could probably keep up with a fair bit of action work. Me? My fieldcraft is not too good which means that I rely on the camera AF to over a lot of incompetence and this is where (at the moment) Canon wins out for me. But I do like using the Pana/Oly kit at other times.


----------



## AlanF (May 14, 2019)

tron said:


> Apples with orranges! A 7D2 (or a the 50mpixel 5DsR which has the same pixel density) would make it an effective 1344mm. And an adaptor (if it exists) with Olympus would make it an effective 1680mm.
> 
> However, I understand the small size and the light weight benefits that's why I mentioned above the 400DOII lens as my favorite portable combination. It combines the best of both worlds.


A Canon APS-C with a 32.5mpx sensor would have the same pixel density as a 20mpx micro4/3 to give the same reach and a wider field of view. A new Canon 90D with such a sensor would make a great partner for the current 100-400mm II.


----------



## LSXPhotog (May 14, 2019)

Vivid1 said:


> Unfortunately it *seems *to be a non-Canon camera. If you read the comments on the flying cuckoo on his facebook, he says it is NOT a 1dx111, it is NOT a prototype Canon, it is NOT a D5; so maybe it is Sony or Panasonic; but Panasonic has just announced their flagship and it cannot do 30fps; so Sony then (A9 successor). Andy has changed systems before (Canon to Nikon and then back to Canon) so I will not be surprised. Or maybe he is just testing the new Sony and not changing systems? Who knows.... I still wish I had his job


It actually can shoot 30fps...it shoots 60fps without autofocus...so the Olympus OM-D E-M1X is likely the camera he's using.


----------



## RayValdez360 (May 14, 2019)

It's a new Sony camera that uses animal Eye AF and new bird AF. BOOM!


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## Jack Douglas (May 14, 2019)

Well, from my experience the "honeymoon" phase tends to pass. More so for those who play the field. Anyone enamoured with some new toy can make great claims and produce something to reinforce their claims. After all, all of us get lucky at times and we are not talking about poor quality gear in this case.

I think Andy may be in the mode of acting as an ambassador for the mystery camera manufacturer and providing hype very effectively, preceding coming out.

Jack


----------



## Pape (May 14, 2019)

New olympus camera and 300f4 microfourthirds lense is very cool kit but i dont think i can pay 5500E
Canon knows how to make cheapest stuff ,i hope there will be like 2000E kit soon what can do as good autofocus what olympus camera +bird profile locking
and optically can beat zuiko 300 .
I dont care so much about fps . i am still so noob that i believe i can push shutter with right timing


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## Sator (May 14, 2019)

I am going to stick my neck out and say it is going to be a digital version of the 35mm format EOS-1N RS camera:




This was the last pellicle mirror camera that Canon made. It finished production around 2002. Canon have a tradition of making pellicle mirror cameras eg the Pellix line, going back many decades, and it arguably odd that they haven't offered a pellicle mirror design since 2002 given the number of patents they own in this area. Patents related to digital pellicle mirror designs have been found before. This will eliminate the mirror shock and allow faster frame rates.

The next prediction I am making is that the 1D successor may have a global shutter, thus eliminating the other shutter shock from the last key mechanical component left in cameras. Canon may have beaten Sony and Panasonic to market with the commercialisation of global shutter technology and are going to use the 2020 Tokyo Olympics to showcase their progress.


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## kaihp (May 14, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> The incomplete evidence in this situation being an Instagram post which suggests a 30FPS camera.
> 
> After getting people all spun up, I’m going to laugh really hard if he’s playing with a prototype Sony a9ii.
> 
> BTW which rumors speak to the state of canon prototypes?


I'm 5 pages late to the party, so apologies if I post something redundant: Andy was asked on IG whether he was testing a Sony, which he denied.

But he's also stating that "it's not Canon kit" @Canon Rumors Guy


----------



## LSXPhotog (May 14, 2019)

kaihp said:


> I'm 5 pages late to the party, so apologies if I post something redundant: Andy was asked on IG whether he was testing a Sony, which he denied.
> 
> But he's also stating that "it's not Canon kit" @Canon Rumors Guy


It's been deducted that he's using an Olympus.


----------



## HarryFilm (May 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> It's not going to happen just because of how physics of light works. Larger sensor = more room needed between the sensor and the lens = thick smartphone = fail.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



===

I think MANY people can live with the minimum 12 mm thick body of a smartphone that has a 2/3rd inch sensor!
The "lens barrel" can extend outwards using a peizo-electric motor drive AND Sony could put in an EXTRA-BIG battery(s) to help with multi-day use. I know MANY in the commercial side of of things who wanted something like the Red Hydrogen smartphone BUT MUCH BEEFIER in the imaging department! AND they are WILLING to pay the $1100 US to $1400 US to make it happen with a 2/3rds inch sensor!

For an APS-C sensor, it will need to be 22mm or thicker or have a very complex multi-ring extending lens-barrel motor drive. With aspherical micro-lenses, the normal 45 mm focal plane of an APS-C sensor can be brought down to AROUND 22mm. When you buy a rugged phone such as the Sonim or Conquest and others, they are at least 22mm or even thicker! That's not too bad for the pros or higher-end consumers who need a backup to their MILC!

And since Sony INVENTED HyperHAD (1987) with the microlenses put overtop of individual sensor photosites, they can EASILY using very high refractive index glass (or even ultra-refractive acrylic!) to make the lens focal plane even shallower!

I actually don't mind larger phones since I've had large rugged phones that are BIG for quite some time, so I'm used to their size! I think MANY others would also be open to a BIG smartphone if the screen resolution, image sensor and battery life were WORLD CLASS !!!

.
P.S. the last sunset photo was from a Samsung Omnia-series which was a 2012 era Blackberry-like keypad phone with a 3.15 megapixel camera but for some reason the original is only at 1600 by 1200 pixels. That was done to save space since FEW people had the high rez monitors for displaying 3.15 megapixel photos.

---

Now in terms of dynamic range, there are only TWO possible fixes! Either use MUCH LARGER photosites or change the chemistry of the light-sensitive dopants used within the CMOS substrate. Right now, a typical 2/3rds inch sensor is ABOUT 8.8 mm by 6.6 mm so that means an 8192 by 6144 pixel resolution (50.3 megapixel) sensor of that size would have a photosite size of around 0.97 Microns which HAS been done on other sensors from Sony. The dynamic range would be on par with a Canon Powershot camera which isn't that bad!

If Sony wanted to REALLY SPEND THE MONEY and use High Sensitivity Dielectric Films in the photosites THEN they could EASILY MATCH or exceed Canon 1DxMk2 camera in terms of actual sensitivity and MATCH or exceed Nikon's lowest noise cameras (which I personally think is the D850 rather than the D5!), using only a 2/3rds inch sensor.

See paper:








(PDF) High Sensitivity of Dielectric films Structure for Advanced CMOS Image Sensor Technology


PDF | The optical effects of dielectric film properties and thickness are investigated for 0.18um enhanced CMOS image sensor. The spectral response... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net





---

Based upon my usual rumour mill sources, I now KNOW that large sensor smartphones ARE COMING and that a 2/3rds inch sensor in a THICK ruggedized smartphone body with a BIG BATTERY is what's coming out first! And THAT manufacturer IS SONY !!!!!!!!!! And it will be an 8192 by 6144 pixel (50.3 megapixels) Bayer-format CMOS sensor! Estimated price will be between $1200 US to as much as $1500 US !!!


---
.


----------



## HarryFilm (May 14, 2019)

Isn't the bottom camera a Fuji?


ketsang said:


> This is why.
> 
> View attachment 184553



I blew up the photo by 4x and the Top one is ABSOLUTELY a Canon and the Bottom Camera SEEMS to say Fujifilm but the angle is REALLY high for me to be absolutely sure!

Did he goto Fuji?
.


----------



## Mikehit (May 14, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> Isn't the bottom camera a Fuji?
> 
> 
> I blew up the photo by 4x and the Top one is ABSOLUTELY a Canon and the Bottom Camera SEEMS to say Fujifilm but the angle is REALLY high for me to be absolutely sure!
> ...



There was reference in an earlier post about a lens 80-150 and people thought this should have been 40-150 f2.8 (Olympus). Fuji make a 50-140 which, for their APS-C give 80mm at the short end.
In the post you quoted reference to, IF that is the camera he is trying out there is no Olympus equivalent to give 840mm.But the Fuji 100-400 with 1.4tc on APS-C would be in that ballpark. And it shoots 30fps black-out free.

So maybe you are talking sense at last.


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## an0nymes (May 15, 2019)

It's Olympus (probably OM-D E-M1X ) with 300mm f4 + 1.4 teleconverter. This is larger photo from his tweeter.


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## Quarkcharmed (May 15, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ===
> 
> I think MANY people can live with the minimum 12 mm thick body of a smartphone that has a 2/3rd inch sensor!
> The "lens barrel" can extend outwards using a peizo-electric motor drive AND Sony could put in an EXTRA-BIG battery(s) to help with multi-day use. I know MANY in the commercial side of of things who wanted something like the Red Hydrogen smartphone BUT MUCH BEEFIER in the imaging department! AND they are WILLING to pay the $1100 US to $1400 US to make it happen with a 2/3rds inch sensor!



Once there was *Panasonic Lumix DMC-CM1. *Google it. It wasn't a huge success, to say the least, and nobody's ever tried to repeat it. Maybe the reason was that people buy a smartphone as a communication and media device with camera, not as a camera with phone.


----------



## HarryFilm (May 15, 2019)

an0nymes said:


> It's Olympus (probably OM-D E-M1X ) with 300mm f4 + 1.4 teleconverter. This is larger photo from his tweeter.



YUP an Olympus OMD xxxxxx-something... and 30 fps burst rate IS UTTERLY AWESOME !!! That is FAAANTASTIC for Sports, Action and Wildlife say with an adapted Sigma Sports 150 to 600 mm zoom lens!









Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sports Lens for Canon EF


Buy Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sports Lens for Canon EF featuring EF-Mount Lens/Full-Frame Format, Aperture Range: f/5 to f/22, Two FLD Elements, Three SLD Elements, Super Multi-Layer Coating, Hyper Sonic Motor AF System, OS Image Stabilization, Fixed, Rotating Tripod Collar, Rounded...




www.bhphotovideo.com






see blown up photo below:


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## raptor3x (May 15, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> YUP an Olympus OMD xxxxxx-something... and 30 fps burst rate IS UTTERLY AWESOME !!! That is FAAANTASTIC for Sports, Action and Wildlife say with an adapted Sigma Sports 150 to 600 mm zoom lens!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No question that's an E-M1X. The 30fps is with AF/AE locked though. If you want C-AF and AE you're limited to 18fps which is still plenty, plus you can continuously loop up to 35 shots in the buffer without actually writing anything to the card until you fully hit the shutter button. Really neat feature when you've got to react to stuff faster than your own reaction time.


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## HarryFilm (May 15, 2019)

raptor3x said:


> No question that's an E-M1X. The 30fps is with AF/AE locked though. If you want C-AF and AE you're limited to 18fps which is still plenty, plus you can continuously loop up to 35 shots in the buffer without actually writing anything to the card until you fully hit the shutter button. Really neat feature when you've got to react to stuff faster than your own reaction time.



===

Interestingly, I could have used that 30 fps in a local soccer (football) game a few days ago - LOTS of fast goalkeeper action in that high scoring 5:4 game ! You can use a high-end video camera to capture fast action as a 60 fps 4k by 2k frame grab which I have done previously in such situations but those cameras were not available for me this week, so I had to use an older 1Dx Mk One this time.

I really think Olympus is going ALL-OUT and by adding some BIOS software upgrade to lock the camera to 30 fps, they will "capture" quite a bit of the local community sports and prosumer photographer dollars. In the USA and Europe, that is probably 30,000 cameras right there in probably 6-to-9 months (or about 90 million US dollars which isn't too shabby of a sales grab!). Add in another 20,000 cameras (or $60 million US) for AU/NZ, South America, Middle East, Asia, etc and Olympus just added quite a bit of cash to its bottom line!

The ONLY thing really that is missing is an Olympus-originated 150 to 600 mm Super-Zoom lens that is CHEAPER than Sigma's AND If possible a FASTER 12mm to 200mm. THAT WOULD JUST KILL IT! How about changing your M.Zuiko 12-200mm f/3.5-6.3 zoom lens to FASTER "glass" by using thin film-coated ultra-high refractive index ACRYLIC plastic lens elements to make THAT happen at a price of say .... $899 US and a speedier f/2.8-f4 ???
From a technical point of view, that f/4 final CAN be done with Acyrlic lens which ARE more transparent than many of the best silica-based glasses!

Can you do it Olympus? a 150 to 600 mm Super Zoom and a FAAAST 12mm to 200mm zoom -- Acrylic works VERY WELL !!! Just remember to coat it properly with thin film clear ceramic/alumina for scratch resistance!

.


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## HarryFilm (May 15, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Once there was *Panasonic Lumix DMC-CM1. *Google it. It wasn't a huge success, to say the least, and nobody's ever tried to repeat it. Maybe the reason was that people buy a smartphone as a communication and media device with camera, not as a camera with phone.




Unfortunately, it was a device WAY AHEAD of it's time! Nowadays though, that newest Qualcomm Snapdragon 855 WILL make all the difference in that FLAGSHIP Smartphone CPU horsepower can now be mated to MUCH BIGGER sensors! Computational photography software coupled to a sensor that is BIG and BRIGHT will give all lower end MILC cameras a big run for their money.

And right now, the broadcast electronics rumour mill has it that just such beasts are coming from Sony and their first foray will be in the 50.3 megapixel 2/3rds inch sensor (8192 x 6144 pixels) super-smartphone market AND a 50.3 megapixel medium format sensor (56x42mm) in a multi-aspect-ratio, combined stills/video system similar in physical body configuration to a Canon XC-15 but larger and with interchangeable lenses!
.
An announcement is rumoured to made as soon as this September/October 2019, but we'll see about that!
I would be more inclined to see such beasts at a CES-2020 announcement in January 2020 instead!
.


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## SecureGSM (May 15, 2019)

/\/\/\
Medium format 50MP does not make sense let alone medium format video rig. What gives?


----------



## raptor3x (May 15, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> Interestingly, I could have used that 30 fps in a local soccer (football) game a few days ago - LOTS of fast goalkeeper action in that high scoring 5:4 game ! You can use a high-end video camera to capture fast action as a 60 fps 4k by 2k frame grab which I have done previously in such situations but those cameras were not available for me this week, so I had to use an older 1Dx Mk One this time.
> 
> I really think Olympus is going ALL-OUT and by adding some BIOS software upgrade to lock the camera to 30 fps, they will "capture" quite a bit of the local community sports and prosumer photographer dollars. In the USA and Europe, that is probably 30,000 cameras right there in probably 6-to-9 months (or about 90 million US dollars which isn't too shabby of a sales grab!). Add in another 20,000 cameras (or $60 million US) for AU/NZ, South America, Middle East, Asia, etc and Olympus just added quite a bit of cash to its bottom line!



It actually shoots RAW up to 60fps although the buffer is only enough for about a second of footage.


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## AlanF (May 15, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ===
> 
> Interestingly, I could have used that 30 fps in a local soccer (football) game a few days ago - LOTS of fast goalkeeper action in that high scoring 5:4 game ! You can use a high-end video camera to capture fast action as a 60 fps 4k by 2k frame grab which I have done previously in such situations but those cameras were not available for me this week, so I had to use an older 1Dx Mk One this time.
> 
> ...


Olympus announced at the end of last year and have displayed this year a 150-400mm f/4.5 with a built in 1.4xTC.


----------



## Jack Douglas (May 15, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Olympus announced at the end of last year and have displayed this year a 150-400mm f/4.5 with a built in 1.4xTC.



If you're shooting for photo level sharpness you're dreaming if you think 4K60 is the answer where there is action. Without blazing fast AF that can react to a completely new scenario within 1/60 sec there is disappointment. For example, I shot a Quetzal approaching and leaving a nest. Leaving you may have a second to accurately prefocus but you have no idea about the trajectory the bird will take and the whole affair is over in about 1/4 of a second. Approaching, you can only guess where to pre-focus. To compound the problem you need a rather high shutter speed to prevent blur (remember typically you'll have a pretty long lens where even 1/2000 is low) and if lighting is poor that pushes the ISO way up.

Now, if you're happy with mediocre video footage played back at not too slow a speed such that you can't really inspect each frame, it'll pass. However, first rate frame captures ... it'll be down to luck.

Of course, I can only speak for the 1DX2 which isn't in the same league as these newer amazing cameras being discussed.

Jack


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## AlanF (May 15, 2019)

Jack Douglas said:


> If you're shooting for photo level sharpness you're dreaming if you think 4K60 is the answer where there is action. Without blazing fast AF that can react to a completely new scenario within 1/60 sec there is disappointment. For example, I shot a Quetzal approaching and leaving a nest. Leaving you may have a second to accurately prefocus but you have no idea about the trajectory the bird will take and the whole affair is over in about 1/4 of a second. Approaching, you can only guess where to pre-focus. To compound the problem you need a rather high shutter speed to prevent blur (remember typically you'll have a pretty long lens where even 1/2000 is low) and if lighting is poor that pushes the ISO way up.
> 
> Now, if you're happy with mediocre video footage played back at not too slow a speed such that you can't really inspect each frame, it'll pass. However, first rate frame captures ... it'll be down to luck.
> 
> ...


What has 4K60 got to do with me, even in my dreams or nightmares?


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## Jack Douglas (May 15, 2019)

AlanF said:


> What has 4K60 got to do with me, even in my dreams or nightmares?


Nothing - it tied into the statement that you had responded to from *Harry*. I guess I should have searched back for the original to avoid the confusion.

Jack


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## 3kramd5 (May 15, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> /\/\/\
> Medium format 50MP does not make sense



To whom?


----------



## Tugela (May 15, 2019)

LSXPhotog said:


> It appears that he’s no longer listing himself as a Canon ambassador so he’s moving on to the next company to pay him to shoot. LOL
> 
> The cryptic nature of his posts really had me going and I looked at all the details, but I didn’t read all the comments. He appears to be testing some new Olympus lenses that haven’t been released either...or he’s adapting Canon glass. With a speed booster it could be a little monster for sure.



Why would he talk about lack of RF lenses then? It must be a Canon camera. There is no reason to even mention the lack of long RF lenses if he was using some other system.


----------



## HarryFilm (May 15, 2019)

Jack Douglas said:


> If you're shooting for photo level sharpness you're dreaming if you think 4K60 is the answer where there is action. Without blazing fast AF that can react to a completely new scenario within 1/60 sec there is disappointment. For example, I shot a Quetzal approaching and leaving a nest. Leaving you may have a second to accurately prefocus but you have no idea about the trajectory the bird will take and the whole affair is over in about 1/4 of a second. Approaching, you can only guess where to pre-focus. To compound the problem you need a rather high shutter speed to prevent blur (remember typically you'll have a pretty long lens where even 1/2000 is low) and if lighting is poor that pushes the ISO way up.
> 
> Now, if you're happy with mediocre video footage played back at not too slow a speed such that you can't really inspect each frame, it'll pass. However, first rate frame captures ... it'll be down to luck.
> 
> ...




Video cannot YET achieve still photo sharpness simply because of the way the DSP (Digital Signal Procesor) changes pixel formatting RGB to YCbCr (which introduces an automatic 15% reduction in colour palette) AND the typical INTERFRAME codec causes a reduction in temporal information which means frames are slightly blurry!

When using VIDEO cameras for sports/action still photography, I have been able to compensate by using DCI 4K cameras (4096 x2160 pixel) and resampling the image to exactly half on each axis (i.e. now 2048 x 1080 pixel) which is quite nicely formatted for MANY website and PDF file distribution formats I get requested to make.

For that resampled image, I USUALLY use an UnSharp Mask filter which just enhances edges slightly and I typically re-saturate the frame grabs with a 5% to 15% increase to take into account the YCbCr colour palette reduction of video imagery.

For this consumer-level-application, the end-user doesn't actually care since they don't KNOW I'm capturing at 24 fps, 30 fps or even 60 fps depending upon the video camera I take out from our parent company's inventory. I usually do get good action shots in a "Spray and Pray" modality of operations since I set the video camera electronic shutter speed to TWICE the frame rate such as 1/48th for 24 fps, 1/60th for 30 fps and 1/120th for 60 fps.

For focus, I've got enough experience in many sports to actually be able to ANTICIPATE the action and will "Focus Ahead" of an anticipated "Play Area" to get my images tack-sharp! I treat it like a VIDEO shoot where you have to ANTICIPATE the action and FOCUS MANUALLY just before the director switches to your camera in a multi-camera sports shoot !!!

Using shutter speeds at 1/1000th or 1/2000th on video is actually counterproductive because of the sheer amount of light needed to get that sort of tack sharpness on high-action shots. I have found that image resampling and edge enhancement take care of motion blur for many of my selected frame grabs, and depending upon the editor, I have NOTICED they tend to select the images that HAVE motion blur because it seems to give the FEEL of more intense "Action" and gives a slight dreamy quality to the image! It gets published online and in newsprint at various aspect ratios (4:3 aspect 10 cm by 7.5 cm is typical in our stories), motion-blur and all and it's worked for years! The editors TEND to "Crop Hard" so my wide shots get whacked down to closeups during the image cropping/resampling phase of editorial.

I've done Hockey Games, US Football, Soccer, Baseball, Basketball, Rugby, F1/Stock Car, Skiing, Mountain Biking and other action/sports at pro levels, so me and all the people i know use MANUAL FOCUS and MANUAL IRIS (all our cameras typically have full iris/focus rings on high end Servo Zoom lenses) and this has worked for DECADES (i.e. since late 1980's!) for video production AND as news still photo-published video frame grabs! And now that I mostly do industrial/aerospace video and stills imagery at work, I don't have to worry about sports and cinema directors and editor personnel breathing down my neck for instant answers! I now do "Free and Paid Side Jobs" out of my own volition, only on my terms!

If I do use the Canon 1Dx Mk1/2's, YES you set shutter speed to high and in my case anticipate the action and then spray on burst-mode, letting the editor do the work when I get back! My hit rate is about 1-in-10 photos are any good so I am getting about 50 decent ones out of the typical 500 images I shoot in an average hockey or soccer game!

Typically, of those 50 decent stills, only 5 to 10 are GREAT and those are what the editor wants when I send my decent ones back! On a typical shoot I will send back only HALF of my 50 decent ones and FLAG the 5-to-10 I think are the best, after I have a second look at them on a larger screen. The editor isn't bogged down then since he/she has got other photogs doing various parts of the game!

So far, so good!
.


----------



## HarryFilm (May 15, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> To whom?



==

Canon 5Dr/s cameras made it abundantly clear that 50 megapixels in an easy-to-use compact format WILL be enticing to portrait, wildlife and landscape photographers! What is MISSING is a full feature set AND the absolute light gathering capability of camera sensors on larger format system such as the MF Hasselblad/Phase One/Fuji cameras.

A second convergence is coming where the FIRST convergence was getting cameras from film into digital and then mirrorless digital. The SECOND convergence is Computational Photography where software is mated to high-power CPU processers (i.e. Qualcomm Snapdragon 855 or AMD Ryzen-7 2700u cpu's) that have LOTS of digital signal processing ability AND THEN those qualities are mated to superior and LARGER low-light/low-noise capable image sensors.

For smartphones, the LOGICAL CHOICE is 2/3rds inch sensors because THAT is the worldwide broadcast television standard for almost all sports, action and news imagery! Right now most B4-mount broadcast cameras are 4K resolution attached to cheap Canon DIGIC-like cpu processors which don't do all that much. It means that current sensor manufacturers (i.e. Sony!) can easily USE THEIR OLD STOCK of 4k and 8K 2/3rds inch sensors in such smartphone devices.

NOW with Snapdragon 855 cpus and the higher-end AMD Ryzen-7 combined CPU/GPU chips in the pipeline, those processors can take over ALL digital image processing tasks AND take care of Smartphone operating system tasks at the same time! This means we can make super-smartphones relatively CHEAP !!! And with modern HyperHAD-style microlenses over each photosite, the large image sensor means you only need about 12mm of phone thickness to make the sensor focal plane practical for a 2/3rds inch sensor!

The LOGICAL pixel resolution for such super-smartphone devices is 8192 by 6144 pixels (50.3 megapixels) resolution with a 0.97 micron photosite size to keep dynamic range and noise at a high-quality modern level! An ARM-based Snapdragon 855 NOW EASILY handles such 8k by 6k pixel resolution at a frame rate of AT LEAST 30 fps to 60 fps RAW or COMPRESSED at 10-to-16 bits per colour channel!

I and MANY OTHERS would EASILY trade our current devices for a thicker phone with a BIGGER, LONGER LASTING BATTERY and a LARGER 2/3rds inch image sensor even IF the price is between $1100 U.S. to $1500 U.S.!

Such a 50.3 megapixel device is SO POWERFUL, it literally is a supercomputer and image monster in your pocket! It would LIKELY KILL OFF ALL of Canon's and Nikons low end cameras and encroach upon the Canon 7D/6D/M5/M50 and even the Nikon D850!

And based upon my broadcast video electronics-design colleagues/friends who have their own rumour mill, it seems SONY is the one who will be bringing the Super-Smartphone to market FIRST, although I have heard that Canon is doing to INHOUSE TESTING of 50 megapixel systems maybe in the XC-15 form factor?

For the HIGHER END, I also believe SONY is the one to bring that MAGICAL COMBINED 50.3 megapixel Stills/Video Medium Format sensor monster ...BUT... it's price will LIKELY be in the $10,000+ U.S. range!
.
Again, we shall see and YES you heard it here FIRST !!!
.


----------



## SecureGSM (May 16, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> To whom?


to me, obviously, that was said in the context of Harry's post referring to a super modern 50MP Medium Format sensor... see the link. Medium format sensors are pushing 100Mp these day. 50MP would be on a smaller side.


----------



## 3kramd5 (May 16, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> to me, obviously,



Fair enough. I often see posts which convey a wider applicability, and thought you might have meant technologically.

Yes, there are 150MP sensors, but like smaller sensors where resolutions vary, there is applicability to consider. I don’t think it follows to say that say 20MP 1Dxii doesn’t make sense in the era of 51MP 5Ds.

LargeSense makes a 12” x 9” CMOS at something like 12MP. The photo sites (as well as the sensor itself) dwarf sony’s 150MP platform.


----------



## stevelee (May 16, 2019)

slclick said:


> Like bringing up 'Where's the new G7Xiii'



Well, since you brought it up, where is it? I want one before mid-June.


----------



## Tugela (May 16, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> Video cannot YET achieve still photo sharpness simply because of the way the DSP (Digital Signal Procesor) changes pixel formatting RGB to YCbCr (which introduces an automatic 15% reduction in colour palette) AND the typical INTERFRAME codec causes a reduction in temporal information which means frames are slightly blurry!
> 
> When using VIDEO cameras for sports/action still photography, I have been able to compensate by using DCI 4K cameras (4096 x2160 pixel) and resampling the image to exactly half on each axis (i.e. now 2048 x 1080 pixel) which is quite nicely formatted for MANY website and PDF file distribution formats I get requested to make.
> 
> ...



You not heard of RAW video yet?


----------



## Tugela (May 16, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ==
> 
> Canon 5Dr/s cameras made it abundantly clear that 50 megapixels in an easy-to-use compact format WILL be enticing to portrait, wildlife and landscape photographers! What is MISSING is a full feature set AND the absolute light gathering capability of camera sensors on larger format system such as the MF Hasselblad/Phase One/Fuji cameras.
> 
> ...



No you won't see. If those small sensors were so great then they would be used in high end cameras already, and they are not. There is a reason for that. If you are interested in image quality a bigger sensor will always beat a small sensor. It has more light, it is less prone to artifacts such as CA and light scattering on the sensor and it allows for control of depth of field more readily without optical distortions.

A cell phone might replace a low end point and shoot on the market, but they will not replace higher end ILCs. There is simply no comparison when it comes to IQ and there never will be due to physics.


----------



## caffetin (May 16, 2019)

an0nymes said:


> It's Olympus (probably OM-D E-M1X ) with 300mm f4 + 1.4 teleconverter. This is larger photo from his tweeter.


yes it is OM-D E-M1X


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## 3kramd5 (May 17, 2019)

caffetin said:


> OM-D E-M1X



Someone needs to fire that product lead. What a terrible name.


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## SecureGSM (May 17, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Fair enough. I often see posts which convey a wider applicability, and thought you might have meant technologically.
> 
> Yes, there are 150MP sensors, but like smaller sensors where resolutions vary, there is applicability to consider. I don’t think it follows to say that say 20MP 1Dxii doesn’t make sense in the era of 51MP 5Ds.
> 
> LargeSense makes a 12” x 9” CMOS at something like 12MP. The photo sites (as well as the sensor itself) dwarf sony’s 150MP platform.


Fair enough 
Typical application for 1DX II would be vastly different from what a medium format cameras would be used these days for: high res, super bokeh... as you know. At 50MP I would grab Canon 5DsR with a nice and fast prime if need be. Let along an allegedly proposed 50MP medium format sensor according to our friend Harry.
I do not believe his statement is valid )


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## 3kramd5 (May 17, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> I do not believe his statement is valid )



Well that’s just a sign of sanity


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## HarryFilm (May 18, 2019)

Tugela said:


> You not heard of RAW video yet?




For stills production, YES! I do must say RAW is great (i.e. as say people like Jared Polin - I Shoot RAW say!), but for for looooong video shoots, most DOP's and Camera people I know use Long-GOP (Group of Frames) MP4/H.264/H.265 interframe compressed video which allows for lots of data to be stored in a small space. After that, we take advantage of Nyquist-style image resampling algorithms and unsharp masks to bring video frame grabs into useable web-publishable still photo formats!

RAW is sooooooooo big that many videographers simply don't have the video production gear that usually I have access to, so they are stuck using their lower-end Mac Air notebooks to handle video so they MUST use intraframe compressed Apple Prores or Shoot GOP MP4-type video!

The reason we use the VIDEO cameras to shoot sports/action imagery, is simple convenience and time-saving as were are BOTH video producers and still photo news/editorial imagery gatherers. The two functions have now merged and MOST young people I know who are starting out in video production/broadcast news are pretty much one-man or two-man bands with on-air talent supplementing image acquisition tasks for BOTH stills and video. This means modern cameras MUST NOW HAVE both extensive Stills AND Video capabilities which is WHY the rumour mills I partake in seem to be espousing newer systems that are LARGE SENSOR Flagship-level Smartphone/Tablets AND/OR very large sensor COMBINED stills and video camera systems.

The name bandied about MOST in my broadcast video technology circles is SONY with it's "upcoming" 2/3rds inch sensor flagship series xPeria smartphones AND BOTH Sony and Canon going for and/or actually TESTING high-feature-set, VERY LARGE SENSOR (8192x6144 pixel at 50.3 megapixels) COMBINED stills and video cameras that are in the $10,000+ US price range!

From what I have heard on the RECENT rumour mill, Sony is coming out with a MEDIUM FORMAT 50.3 megapixel sensor (56 mm by 42mm) while Canon's challenger is supposed to be an XC-15-like body with a FULL FRAME sensor at 50.3 megapixels. BOTH cameras, having 4:3 aspect ratio CMOS chips, will allow for MULTIPLE ASPECT RATIOS and VARIABLE CROP-factors for their stills and video capture components! I suspect that Sony's contender will have a MUCH LARGER FEATURE SET but that Canon's will be more physically ruggedized!

Large SENSOR Smartphones WILL kill off the lower end camera line-up of BOTH Canon and Sony simply because the MAJORITY of end-users want a SINGLE device that can do EVERYTHING !!! And a 2/3rds inch 50.3 megapixel sensor with 10-to-16 bits per colour channel mated to computational photography software and FAST cpu chips IS MORE THAN CAPABLE of doing away with needing a separate camera and lower-end smartphone!

Why pay $799 for an M50 and $900 for a Samsung S10 when I can pay $1300 to get BOTH abilities in ONE SINGLE SMALL PACKAGE !!!
.
It's a NO BRAINER for the consumer!
.


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## HarryFilm (May 18, 2019)

Tugela said:


> No you won't see. If those small sensors were so great then they would be used in high end cameras already, and they are not. There is a reason for that. If you are interested in image quality a bigger sensor will always beat a small sensor. It has more light, it is less prone to artifacts such as CA and light scattering on the sensor and it allows for control of depth of field more readily without optical distortions.
> 
> A cell phone might replace a low end point and shoot on the market, but they will not replace higher end ILCs. There is simply no comparison when it comes to IQ and there never will be due to physics.



---

They already ARE being used in high-end cameras!

A Sony PXW series 4K camcorder starts at $25,000 US, so I would DEFINITELY say those are HIGH END cameras !!!









Sony PXW-Z450 4K UHD Shoulder Camcorder (Body Only)


Buy Sony PXW-Z450 4K UHD Shoulder Camcorder (Body Only) featuring Single 2/3" 4K Exmor R Sensor, B4 Lens Mount, 4K UHD/FHD up to 59.94p, Simultaneous Recording to Both SxS Slots, 4 x 3G-SDI Outputs, HD-SDI Input for News Pool Sharing, Genlock & Timecode, Built-In Network Protocols. Review Sony...




www.bhphotovideo.com





We have tons of these in stock for use in our aerospace/industrial videos because a decent shoulder mount 4K camcorder and good Fujinon Servo-Zoom is SO MUCH EASIER to do handheld and interview work with! Those 4K "handycams" are TOYS compared to a decent 2/3rds inch B4-mount camcorder! AND i've done LOTS of still photo/video frame grabs from these cameras! They're 60 fps and they can goto 1/2000th of a second using electronic shutter modes for the clearest action scene captures! Built-in ND's with viewfinder Waveform and Vectorscope monitors for monitoring my video makes these cameras a DREAM to use on-field or at ice level for BOTH video and stills capture!

Sony 2/3rd inch sensors are used in EVERY major broadcast system! In fact SONY IS KING when is comes to B4 Mount Shoulder-mount and fixed pedestal camcorders for Broadcast television sports and news gathering. I see NOTHING BUT 4k 2/3rds inch Sony and Panasonic at an average Premier League soccer game or NHL hockey game (and I've been ON the football field and ice level with the rest of the camera crew - we ALL use B4-mount 2/3rds inch cameras!)

There is NO TECHNICAL REASON WHY SONY CANNOT USE it's 4K/8K resolution 2/3rd inch sensors on a cell phone! The ONLY ISSUE is that the cell phone MUST be around 12mm thick to accommodate the focal plane issue inherent with that sensor size! With 12 mm to play with, If I was Sony, I would DEFINITELY be adding EXTRA Li-Ion battery cells to the empty space surround the 2/3rd inch image sensor assembly! More Battery, Bigger Sensor, more POWERFUL CPU chip --- What's Not To Like?

.
YEAH! If i'm doing long-form single-camera shoots, i'm using the Full Frame Canon C700 ... BUT .... the parent company paid $90,000+ CAN for a full setup for EACH of those cameras they bought! The lenses were more than the camera itself! Such high costs is why I say that 2/3rds inch sensor smartphones ARE A VERY BIG DEAL for the prosumer user and the budget and small-band filmmaker community!
.
It seems they are coming .... I didn't think they would come as early as 2019/2020 but it looks like the next 18 months is gonna be a GAME CHANGER for the flagship smartphone community who ALSO want BETTER stills and video imagery than what they are getting now!
.


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## SecureGSM (May 18, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> They already ARE being used in high-end cameras!
> 
> ...



Harry, how on earth you are going to cool this "assembly" down? rhetorical question though. you can't is the answer, unless you shoot at a sub-zero temperature.


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## Mikehit (May 18, 2019)

So it seems it is the E-M1X. This FB post on Andy Rouse's site explains all.....I am posting the link because I am not sure if cut-and-paste would cause any copyright problems






__ https://www.facebook.com/wildmanrouse/posts/10156494952083753


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## AlanF (May 18, 2019)

He is promulgating the idea that 300mm is effectively 600mm on FF. It is that for field of view but it is not 600mm on for "reach" unless you are comparing a 20 mpx 4/3 sensor with a 20 mpx FF. You will get exactly the same resolution as a 32 mpx sensor on APS-C. A 375mm telephoto on a 7DII or a 5DSR will give the same resolution as 300mm on the EM1X. I would like the Pro Capture that the Olympus has. A 100-400mm II on a 5DSR has a similar weight to a 300mm f/4 on the EM1X and has the advantage of a full frame sensor, twice the field of view and spot centre focus to be set against the fast frame rate and Pro Capture of the EM1X. Some pros and amateurs would take the Olympus but I far prefer the Canon set up. YMMV.


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## SecureGSM (May 18, 2019)

A genuine question: what an image taken with E1 MX at ISO 6400 would look like at pixel level? I am still a little unconvinced that micro 4/3 cameras can be good in low light​


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## raptor3x (May 18, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> A genuine question: what an image taken with E1 MX at ISO 6400 would look like at pixel level? I am still a little unconvinced that micro 4/3 cameras can be good in low light​



If we compare it to the 5DsR and 1DXii, at ISO 6400 pixel level it's actually slightly better than the 5DsR ISO 3200 at pixel level in the midtones but just a touch cleaner than the 1DXii at ISO 25600 in the midtones. It's actually one of the better sensors on a per area basis, but for low light shooting there still "no replacement for displacement" so to speak. It's really not a competitor to the FF 1DXii/D5/A9 sport cameras outside of excellent light conditions.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/im...x=-0.049529346622369824&y=0.08774018595041329


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## raptor3x (May 18, 2019)

AlanF said:


> He is promulgating the idea that 300mm is effectively 600mm on FF. It is that for field of view but it is not 600mm on for "reach" unless you are comparing a 20 mpx 4/3 sensor with a 20 mpx FF.



Depending on how you define reach it could be similar, but otherwise I agree that they're just two very different tools. At least he's not trying to sell the lens as a 600mm f/4 equivalent, it always bugs me when people try to mix and match the equivalent focal length with the actual aperture ratio to make the lens seem like it's something it isn't.


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## AlanF (May 18, 2019)

raptor3x said:


> If we compare it to the 5DsR and 1DXii, at ISO 6400 pixel level it's actually slightly better than the 5DsR ISO 3200 at pixel level in the midtones but just a touch cleaner than the 1DXii at ISO 25600 in the midtones. It's actually one of the better sensors on a per area basis, but for low light shooting there still "no replacement for displacement" so to speak. It's really not a competitor to the FF 1DXii/D5/A9 sport cameras outside of excellent light conditions.
> 
> https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/im...x=-0.049529346622369824&y=0.08774018595041329


The Olympus sensor is indeed very good for its size, remarkably so in fact. But, in the images you link to, that from the 5DSR is much larger than that from the EM1X, and downsizing the 5DSR image would greatly increase its relative S/N.


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## AlanF (May 18, 2019)

raptor3x said:


> Depending on how you define reach it could be similar, but otherwise I agree that they're just two very different tools. At least he's not trying to sell the lens as a 600mm f/4 equivalent, it always bugs me when people try to mix and match the equivalent focal length with the actual aperture ratio to make the lens seem like it's something it isn't.


Same here. I feel that they are being disingenuous. I had thought about getting an MFT for lightness but a quick calculation showed that I can achieve as much reach with similar weight APS-C or FF gear.


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## 3kramd5 (May 18, 2019)

raptor3x said:


> Depending on how you define reach it could be similar, but otherwise I agree that they're just two very different tools. At least he's not trying to sell the lens as a 600mm f/4 equivalent, it always bugs me when people try to mix and match the equivalent focal length with the actual aperture ratio to make the lens seem like it's something it isn't.



I’d define reach similarly to focal length limited. “the ability to fill the frame with your subject.”


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## AlanF (May 18, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> I’d define reach similarly to focal length limited. “the ability to fill the frame with your subject.”


Maybe for video, but not for stills. By your definition, a 7DII would have 1.6x the reach of a 5DSR with the same lens. But, you can crop the 5DSR image to be the same size as the 7DIIs with the same number of pixels on target. The 7DII and the 5DSR have the same resolution "reach" (apart from the AA-filter) as they have same size pixels within 1% (4.1/4.14 microns).


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## Mikehit (May 18, 2019)

AlanF said:


> He is promulgating the idea that 300mm is effectively 600mm on FF. It is that for field of view but it is not 600mm on for "reach" unless you are comparing a 20 mpx 4/3 sensor with a 20 mpx FF. You will get exactly the same resolution as a 32 mpx sensor on APS-C. A 375mm telephoto on a 7DII or a 5DSR will give the same resolution as 300mm on the EM1X. I would like the Pro Capture that the Olympus has. A 100-400mm II on a 5DSR has a similar weight to a 300mm f/4 on the EM1X and has the advantage of a full frame sensor, twice the field of view and spot centre focus to be set against the fast frame rate and Pro Capture of the EM1X. Some pros and amateurs would take the Olympus but I far prefer the Canon set up. YMMV.



All fair points but I think he quite explicit in saying that that aspect of 'reach' is not relevant to him: he gets an image that is good enough for him irrelevant of whether absolute quality matches the FF gear. And what appeals to him is the options the technology (such as procapture) gives him and the much smaller kit size makes it more flexible.

I have 7D2 with 100-400 and also (recently) the E-M1X with300f4+1.4 tc. Guess which is much smaller. I have only just got the E-M1X so not done full field testing yet but so far it looks promising. Regards reach, both lenses will give 400mm so the bird on the sensor will be independent of sensor size, so the EM-1X gives more pixels on the target. What effect that will have I will be looking at very closely. 

I have often said that if you want to talk technical and ultimate quality then talk to an amateur enthusiast. If you want to talk what is 'good enough' without compromising then talk to a professional. I think he exemplifies this.


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## Mikehit (May 18, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> A genuine question: what an image taken with E1 MX at ISO 6400 would look like at pixel level? I am still a little unconvinced that micro 4/3 cameras can be good in low light​



Pixel level is irrelevant to me. I want to see how the noise in the final image looks.

For all the benefits of MFT, even many professional advocates of the system will say if a majority of your work is in low light then maybe MFT is not for you. So while noise can bean issue with MFT it is image level not pixel level.
But the gap is closing.


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## AlanF (May 18, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> All fair points but I think he quite explicit in saying that that aspect of 'reach' is not relevant to him: he gets an image that is good enough for him irrelevant of whether absolute quality matches the FF gear. And what appeals to him is the options the technology (such as procapture) gives him and the much smaller kit size makes it more flexible.
> 
> I have 7D2 with 100-400 and also (recently) the E-M1X with300f4+1.4 tc. Guess which is much smaller. I have only just got the E-M1X so not done full field testing yet but so far it looks promising. Regards reach, both lenses will give 400mm so the bird on the sensor will be independent of sensor size, so the EM-1X gives more pixels on the target. What effect that will have I will be looking at very closely.
> 
> I have often said that if you want to talk technical and ultimate quality then talk to an amateur enthusiast. If you want to talk what is 'good enough' without compromising then talk to a professional. I think he exemplifies this.


I made a mistake with my calculation: a 331mm lens on a 7DII will give the same number of pixels on a bird as 300mm on a EM1X, not 375mm (3.72µ vs 4.1µ pixels). You would need a 463mm lens on a 7DII to give the same number of pixels as a 300mm + 1.4xTC on an EM1X. We all want different characteristics for our gear, and I can see the attractions of the EM1X.

For those who are guessing the relative sizes, try these:
http://j.mp/30tlfyQ




__





Compact Camera Meter


Compare unlimited number of cameras with lenses, see how compact or bulky a camera is and sort by height, width, depth and weight.



j.mp


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## AlanF (May 18, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> Pixel level is irrelevant to me. I want to see how the noise in the final image looks.
> 
> For all the benefits of MFT, even many professional advocates of the system will say if a majority of your work is in low light then maybe MFT is not for you. So while noise can bean issue with MFT it is image level not pixel level.
> But the gap is closing.


Yes. In decent light, even a 1" 2.7-crop factor sensor can give superb resuts


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## Jack Douglas (May 18, 2019)

So off I went to Costa Rica, not having much of a clue about anything other than looking at photos and reading a bit. Of course we wanted to go to the cloud forests, rain forests and deep in the jungle (with trees that are easily 200 feet tall) because there are lots of cool creatures there.

And guess what? I was thrilled when I could get a shot at less than ISO 6400 and didn't need to crop too heavily. At those ISOs the 1DX2 does pretty well and with selective NR I have many decent shots but I shudder to think of not having the ability to shoot up to even ISO 12800.

Here, I needed 800 mm (F8) for the reach with still quite a bit of cropping to do. I hesitate to go too low on shutter because even slight movements at 800 mm introduce blur so there I am at 1/1000, and thus* ISO 10000* - this is cloud forest in the afternoon and that's what you can expect. I know the frustration having shot with the 1D4 and been quite disappointed relative to high ISO.

Jack


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## raptor3x (May 19, 2019)

AlanF said:


> The Olympus sensor is indeed very good for its size, remarkably so in fact. But, in the images you link to, that from the 5DSR is much larger than that from the EM1X, and downsizing the 5DSR image would greatly increase its relative S/N.



Certainly true, but the other poster I responded to was asking about noise at pixel level rather than at an image level.


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## 3kramd5 (May 19, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Maybe for video, but not for stills. By your definition, a 7DII would have 1.6x the reach of a 5DSR with the same lens. But, you can crop the 5DSR image to be the same size as the 7DIIs with the same number of pixels on target. The 7DII and the 5DSR have the same resolution "reach" (apart from the AA-filter) as they have same size pixels within 1% (4.1/4.14 microns).



I suppose it’s fair to define it as sufficient focal length to put a desired number of pixels on your target. I’d stipulate that if you fill the frame, you’ve done that.


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## SecureGSM (May 19, 2019)

raptor3x said:


> Certainly true, but the other poster I responded to was asking about noise at pixel level rather than at an image level.


Not a noise at pixel level. I beg your pardon. I was interested to know if you can notice image degrading substantially at iso6400. Thank you very much. I shoot with 5D IV and am sceptical beyond a reason that this Oly can deliver a decent image quality at a iso 6400 unless downsampled.
I know what I am talking about as even 5DIII image falls apart at iso 6400


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## Pape (May 19, 2019)

In my logic 600mm f4, 5dsr got double better reach than olympus stuff. olympus got sharper sensor but 15cm front lens got better quality so they are equal.
i feel size of view doesnt matter cause you can crop full frame to what ever size . it contains all smaller formats.
Best camera is one you can shoot all day .Depends about photographers muscles i guess  . i think even olypus would be too heavy for me.
Just make tht nikon 300mm f4 equivalent tube or better for me mr canon. i bet it would make soccer moms happy too!


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## Jack Douglas (May 19, 2019)

Anyone who's aging is going to be thinking about lighter. I hiked for 8 hours straight a few weeks back with the 400 DO II X2 and the 1DX2 over my shoulder and I was really beat. At some point the fun factor starts to dissipate and lighter gear becomes a consideration or one has to give it up altogether. I assume baby boomers represent a fair number of Canon's customers right now that they would like to keep.

Jack


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## raptor3x (May 19, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Not a noise at pixel level. I beg your pardon. I was interested to know if you can notice image degrading substantially at iso6400. Thank you very much. I shoot with 5D IV and am sceptical beyond a reason that this Oly can deliver a decent image quality at a iso 6400 unless downsampled.
> I know what I am talking about as even 5DIII image falls apart at iso 6400



The E-M1X at ISO 6400 will look fairly close to the 5D3 at ISO 12800 or the 5D4 at somewhere between 12800 and 25600. If you shoot at ISO 6400 often and are not happy with the 5D3, then you definitely won't be happy with the E-M1X.


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## SecureGSM (May 19, 2019)

Thank you, nice and clear answer.


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## AlanF (May 19, 2019)

Jack Douglas said:


> Anyone who's aging is going to be thinking about lighter. I hiked for 8 hours straight a few weeks back with the 400 DO II X2 and the 1DX2 over my shoulder and I was really beat. At some point the fun factor starts to dissipate and lighter gear becomes a consideration or one has to give it up altogether. I assume baby boomers represent a fair number of Canon's customers right now that they would like to keep.
> 
> Jack


Precisely why I have stopped hiking with my 400mm DO II and carry the 100-400mm II on the lighter 5DSR rather than your heavier 1DXII. Or, I take the Sony superzoom. But, the M1X is larger and heavier than a 5D, and the Olympus 300mm +TC longer and as heavy as the Canon zoom. As you know, Jack, I am always looking for lighter gear but alternatives have not convinced me to switch from Canon. I leave the superior heavier gear to the younger and stronger.


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## AlanF (May 19, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> I suppose it’s fair to define it as sufficient focal length to put a desired number of pixels on your target. I’d stipulate that if you fill the frame, you’ve done that.


My first digicam was a Casio QV10. Believe me, filling its 0.25 kilopixel sensor did not put a desired number of pixels on target.


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## stevelee (May 19, 2019)

Jack Douglas said:


> Anyone who's aging is going to be thinking about lighter. I hiked for 8 hours straight a few weeks back with the 400 DO II X2 and the 1DX2 over my shoulder and I was really beat. At some point the fun factor starts to dissipate and lighter gear becomes a consideration or one has to give it up altogether. I assume baby boomers represent a fair number of Canon's customers right now that they would like to keep.
> 
> Jack


I take my G7X II when I travel and leave everything else at home. It does a more than adequate job for documenting where I've been, posting pictures on the web, and printing the nicest shots on 13" x 19" paper to frame and hang on the wall. I rarely miss the good gear for those purposes. And then, it is almost always that the 24mm equivalent on the wide end is not wide enough, so I make a few shots to stitch together in Photoshop. An M50 might be fun, but it wouldn't fit in my pocket.

When I'm going out to make pictures per se, then the 6D2 and appropriate lenses are used. Less than half a day wearing it and the 100-400mm II wears me out, without the hiking, but the pictures are worth it. Right now we have just passed from being too rainy to get out and make pictures to being too hot. Trips to Washington, DC, and a couple weeks later to Denmark and Sweden are coming up, so it is back to the G7X II, unless the III comes out soon.

I never expected to live to be this old. Yet I see plenty of folks who are somewhat older still out and very active, so maybe there is still plenty of time to enjoy both travel and photography.


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## 3kramd5 (May 19, 2019)

AlanF said:


> My first digicam was a Casio QV10. Believe me, filling its 0.25 kilopixel sensor did not put a desired number of pixels on target.



Bad decision, then.

Most consumers would be well advised to not purchase items which can not do what the buyer wants them to.

Besides, these days cameras have as many at 614000 times more pixels; that corner case is hardly worth considering.


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## AlanF (May 19, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Bad decision, then.
> 
> Most consumers would be well advised to not purchase items which can not do what the buyer wants them to.
> 
> Besides, these days cameras have as many at 614000 times more pixels; that corner case is hardly worth considering.


It certainly wasn't a bad decision! The QV10 was the very first consumer grade digital camera, and it came on the market 24 years ago. It was a landmark. Casio's QV-10 was awarded the status of "Essential Historical Material for Science and Technology" by Japan's National Museum of Nature and Science. It was great fun, fine for taking mugshots of my grad students to be used at passport size, but not good enough for landscapes etc - a bit like Polaroids or Instamaxes. But, it is a neat example to show that filling the frame is not a sufficient criterion for having enough resolution for all purposes.


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## HarryFilm (May 20, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Harry, how on earth you are going to cool this "assembly" down? rhetorical question though. you can't is the answer, unless you shoot at a sub-zero temperature.



===

Same way you cool GPU's down! Modern microchannel-based cooling pipes embedded into the either the chip substrate itself (i.e. licence some IBM patents) and/or use multi-phase vapour/phase change cooling within micro-sized heat pipes and copper plates that can FAST TRANSFER heat to the outer parts of a case AWAY from areas typically held by a user during phone calls and or when held in the hand. (i.e. expelled from vents or grills embedded into the bottom and top of the phone when held in portrait mode!)

At the speeds envisioned by using ARM-based Qualcomm 855 chips and 8192x6144 pixel or 50.3 megapixel sensors, you're looking at a maximum thermal design power of 5 to 6 watts for the Snapdragon 855 main processor and MANY image sensors are under HALF-A-WATT to as much as 3 watts for very high pixel count image sensors, so by using the extra phase-change cooling or microchannel cooling, it adds barely $60 US to the cost of the phone!

At those cheap prices for the IBM microchannel cooling patents, on a flagship phone with 50.3 megapixels, it's a FINANCIAL NO BRAINER to add the requisite cooling technology to support the added 6 to 8 watts of heat dissipation per required N-amount of time!

---

The parent company I do consulting for, does this ALL THE TIME !!! Phase change cooling mostly with copper plates and heat pipes on the backs of the image sensors and copper or aluminum fins on the outside of the case costs us merely in design time and BARELY $25 to $100 US per device in patent licencing fees depending upon the imaging devices! For that measly amount of money, WHY should we care? We just ADD it to the end user price anyways (which is a LOT more than what a $1500 a Flagship supersmartphone costs!). $60 US out of $1500 retail forsuper-cooling technology is just chump change! As a manufacturer you take the money and eat it! Give the user what they want which is a Big Phone with Lots of RAM, a Powerful CPU/GPU and a BIG-SIZE 2/3rds inch 48-bit RAW and Compressed colour, low-noise, low-light-capable CMOS image sensor!

AND ... for Large 2/3rds inch and APS-C flagship smartphone and tablet designs, that $60 estimated patent licence fee for advanced cooling technology is a MERE drop in the bucket which can EASILY be passed onto the end-user anyways! AND ME AS THE END-USER could care less about an added $60 US when I get a super-smartphone with gigabytes of system RAM, and a Snapdragon 855 attached to a 2/3rds inch image sensor giving me 60 fps 8192 by 6144 16-bits per colour channel RAW or interframe compressed video AND 50.3 megapixel super-sharp RAW 48-bit colour stills that EXCEED the quality of a Canon 5Dr/s ALL at only $1500 US! Again, WHY should I care about companies licencing for 60 dollars worth of cooling technology added on to make me happy? I WANT TO BE HAPPY with my super-smartphone! Soooooooo, goto IBM and licence the embedded CPU and image sensor microchannel cooling technology AND/OR micro-sized multi-phase-change cooling tech!
.
SO YES!!! You CAN cool this in a super-smartphone and since a 2/3rds inch sensor NEEDS about 12mm of thickness anyways for the focal plane issue, you just add the extra cooling within the available left-over 12 mm thick spacing, in addition to putting in extra-thick batteries for all-day use of those big sensors!
.


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## SecureGSM (May 20, 2019)

Appreciate the write up..... And those extra thick batteries are also source of an additional heat that you have to deal with. It’s a catch 22


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## Jack Douglas (May 20, 2019)

Well that's my chuckle for the day.

Jack


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## Mikehit (May 20, 2019)

AlanF said:


> But, the M1X is larger and heavier than a 5D, and the Olympus 300mm +TC longer and as heavy as the Canon zoom. As you know, Jack, I am always looking for lighter gear but alternatives have not convinced me to switch from Canon. I leave the superior heavier gear to the younger and stronger.



I agree. But for me the frame rate of the 5DSR is too low and the AF on the 7D2 is too twitchy. So I am hoping for two things: first that the AF is somewhere between the 1Dx2 and the 7D2 in reliability and secondly that the fancy-fandangled mirrorless functions will be reliably interesting, especially the pro-capture and in-camera focus bracketing. 
If we thought that the range of DSLRs had been getting bewildering, adding mirrorless into the mix is just getting mindblowing when working out the compromises you are willing to work with.
So many options, so little money...


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## AlanF (May 20, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> I agree. But for me the frame rate of the 5DSR is too low and the AF on the 7D2 is too twitchy. So I am hoping for two things: first that the AF is somewhere between the 1Dx2 and the 7D2 in reliability and secondly that the fancy-fandangled mirrorless functions will be reliably interesting, especially the pro-capture and in-camera focus bracketing.
> If we thought that the range of DSLRs had been getting bewildering, adding mirrorless into the mix is just getting mindblowing when working out the compromises you are willing to work with.
> So many options, so little money...


The Olympus is a really nice system. The new 150-400mm kens with a built in TC will, I am sure, be superb, but probably a little heavy as well as expensive. If it is light, I could be tempted.


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## Mikehit (May 20, 2019)

It does look a real beast - I saw a display copy at the Photgraphy Show in Birmingham back in March. The laws of physics can be a real downer sometimes.


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## Michael Clark (May 21, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> I would suspect that this is Canon looking at future Sony a9 etc. and wanting to assure canon users that there is a real pro camera being tested right now. If too tight lipped for too long too many will jump ship and then it is hard to get them back. Just ask Nikon that is still struggling after Canon crushed them with the EF system. Nikon assumed that their pros would stick with them yet they were abandoned in droves until their pro market was left to rich amateurs rather than the pros along the sidelines and at major events.
> It sounds like canon is trying to get ahead of that mass exodus.



The pros, in the kind of numbers that matter to Nikon and Canon, have already left the building. Not to go to Sony or Panasonic, but to a career where they can still make a living. The premium camera market today is not being driven by pros any more, it is being driven by enthusiasts and hobbyists with lots of money to spend. This sea change has been coming for a while, but seems to have reached critical mass around the time the 1D X Mark II and D5 were released.


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