# New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification - Updated



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 24, 2018)

```
<p><a href="https://www.nokishita-camera.com/p/blog-page_29.html">Nokishita</a> has uncovered more unreleased cameras from Canon through certification agencies.</p>
<p><strong>*UPDATED* Canon’s “DS126721” is registered with overseas certification bodies </strong>(Google Translated)</p>
<ul>
<li>Taiwan NCC (<a href="https://nccmember.ncc.gov.tw/Application/FUN/FUN016_JPG.aspx?fileid=rLXuZmPNrn0%3d">PDF file</a>)</li>
<li>Interchangeable lens camera (single lens reflex or full size mirrorless)</li>
<li>Wi-Fi · Bluetooth installed</li>
<li>Battery: DC 7.2 V, 1800 mAh</li>
<li>Charger: Input AC 100 – 240 V (50/60 Hz), Output DC 8.4 V 1.2 A</li>
<li>Kiss M same radio parts (WM 600)</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>Canon’s test cameras code named: “K436” “K437”</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>These are confirmed to be DSLRs, though which models is unknown at this time.</li>
<li>K436 and K437 of SLR also supports test data of smartphone’s Bluetooth remote control function.

<em>* and the Bluetooth remote control function from the latest smartphone of ※ List of cameras tested: M5, M6, M100, KissM, G9XII, G1XIII, SX730HS, K433, K436, K437, EC801, EC804, EC805, EC811</em></li>
<li>The remaining battery level indication of K436 is 4 stages (same as 9000D etc.). Battery level indication on K437 is in six stages (same as 5D Mark IV etc.).</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>Canon test cameras code named: “K424” “K433” “EC 811”</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>These are confirmed to be mirrorless cameras</li>
<li>Beyond the EOS M5 Mark II, the other model names are unknown at this time.</li>
<li>K433 and EC 811 correspond to the smartphone’s Bluetooth remote control function. K424 does not correspond at the present moment ( 6/24 correction:</li>
</ul>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## Talys (Jun 24, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

Oooo. Sweet, so one prosumer DSLR camera and one prosumer mirrorless  

Juicy!


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## fullstop (Jun 24, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

how do you conclude these will be "prosumer" models? Could it not also be a "SL-3" DSLR and a EOS "M101" "entry level mirrorless" as well?


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## jolyonralph (Jun 24, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

Does the 80D have four stages of battery or 6 stages?

If 4, then the K436 would be the "90D" or whatever it's called and the K437 could well be the 7D III


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## fullstop (Jun 24, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

"stages of battery"? what do you mean?


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## Talys (Jun 24, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



fullstop said:


> "stages of battery"? what do you mean?



The battery bar, I assume.







versus






Also the top display on the cameras that have them.


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## zim (Jun 24, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



fullstop said:


> "stages of battery"? what do you mean?



You know, the battery charge level indicator. Some cameras have 4 levels others more.

The 7d and 7d2 has 4 so I'm not sure 6 levels indicates a 7d3, sounds more FF to me but as I understand things, no FF dslr is scheduled for a good while so I'm going to guess this is the first FF mirrorless


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## Talys (Jun 24, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



zim said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > "stages of battery"? what do you mean?
> ...



Technically, there are 6 stages, even though there are only 4 bars:

100-70% (4 bars)
69-50%(3 bars)
49-20% (2 bars)
19-10% (1 bar)
9-1% (1 flashing bar)
0% (empty battery / no bars)


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## fullstop (Jun 24, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

aha! thx. Could not figure what was meant at first.


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## ahsanford (Jun 24, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*


This is a pretty juicy piece of intel. I'm curious how much of this are just consumer products in three colors vs. more substantial product lines.

The 5d-level battery has piqued my interest the most. It's too soon for a 7D3 or 5DS2, so I'm wondering what it could be for.

- A


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## HarryFilm (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



ahsanford said:


> This is a pretty juicy piece of intel. I'm curious how much of this are just consumer products in three colors vs. more substantial product lines.
> 
> The 5d-level battery has piqued my interest the most. It's too soon for a 7D3 or 5DS2, so I'm wondering what it could be for.
> 
> - A



--

Only ONE of the listed cameras is TRULY JUICY .... and just to keep it real....


YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST !!!!

Let's just say Canon and Sony are coming out with "STUFF" LARGER THAN LIFE very soon now...................


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## sleepnever (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

"Same as the 5D MkIV" ...the only thing that was closely related to that was the 5DS/r models. So this piques my interest greatly. Gives me hope that the 5DSR II exists somewhere, even in test form. Maybe. =)


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## ahsanford (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

An LP-E6N seems to work with everything from an XXD up to 5D, and the rumor would describe this as an SLR. So this thing could be any of the following:

90D (this would be earlier than we anticipated, but on paper the next 'nice' SLR to come out)
7D3 (this would be way earlier than anticipated)
5DS2 (this would be way earlier than anticipated)
Something nutty -- an astro version of an existing camera? New nicer SLR market segment?

Anything else, perhaps?

- A


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## crashpc (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

Dividing models with battery level stages in 2018/2019? Ist that the thing these days? c´mon Canon....


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## Talys (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



crashpc said:


> Dividing models with battery level stages in 2018/2019? Ist that the thing these days? c´mon Canon....



That's just a way for us to tell that it's a prosumer model, rather than a lower end, entry-level model.

TBH, I had not even thought of that as a way to distinguish models, and I don't think anyone buying an entry-level model would care, especially on a DSLR, where the battery lasts a very, very long time.

When the battery starts flashing on a 6D2, I can still shoot a pretty significant number of photos.


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## fullstop (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



crashpc said:


> Dividing models with battery level stages in 2018/2019? Ist that the thing these days? c´mon Canon....



hehe, Canon "marketing differentiation" at work. somehow they need to create miniscule differences between a dozen murrorslapper models they are selling betwenn 350 and 6000 €/$. 

instead of simply showing remaining battery charge as a precise percentage number. but still better than nerfing battery capacity by more than 18% by stickibg 2012 batteries into a new 2018 camera model ...


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## ahsanford (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



fullstop said:


> instead of simply showing remaining battery charge as a precise percentage number. but still better than nerfing battery capacity by more than 18% by stickibg 2012 batteries into a new 2018 camera model ...



The thread isn't about crappy batteries -- it's about _new stuff the crappy batteries go into_. Stay on topic. 

- A


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## ahsanford (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

Update from Nokishita just now. Link below + screen cap of Google translate.

https://www.nokishita-camera.com/2018/06/ds126721.html

Smaller rig wifi + LP-E6-like battery would presumably rule out the EOS M5 Mk II, so ... 90D or FF mirrorless?

- A


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## fullstop (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

correct. it is really absurd to watch Canon's marketing nerfing all the way down to the tiniest firmware functions like showing remaing battery charge. truly telling when in 2018 registration descriptions of new camera models are based on "4 segment vs 6 segment battery charge indicator icons on a camera rear display". 

i find it very strange that even on a higher end camera like my 5D3 i have to dive into the menu system just to check *charge remaining* as a percentage. on my EOS M that number is not to be found anywhere. maybe it is not only firmware but also those whimpy old 2012 LP-E12 batteries nerfed to not give a "real readout" of remaining charge ... probably "just to avoid depressing customers" ... yes, Canon really can. lol


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## mb66energy (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



fullstop said:


> correct. it is really absurd to watch Canon's marketing nerfing all the way down to the *tiniest firmware functions like showing remaing battery charg*e. truly telling when in 2018 registration descriptions of new camera models are based on "4 segment vs 6 segment battery charge indicator icons on a camera rear display".
> 
> [...]



Calculating the battery charge is much more than a tiny firmware function. It is a matter of measurement done by the power conversion system and/or the cpu + measurement of battery temperature. This needs some hardware which would not fit easily in smaller cameras and costs ... material + programming + testing.

A more detailed battery charge control is therefore a hint for a camera dedicated to professional use including an "intelligent" battery maybe with integrated temperature sensors and a communication protocol between battery and camera.

The large capacity battery and grainier battery display leads me too to the conclusion that it is probably a FF mirrorless with good video capability - as videographer I would like to see how many minutes I have until the battery is empty. While you may take 1000 photos with one charge over 5 days, video might deliver only 150 min per charge.


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## fullstop (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

Canapologist BS! ;D

a percentage battery charge indicator can be and is implemented in even the cheapest smartphones. Luckily those are not made by Canon ... ;D


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## Mr Majestyk (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

But we were told no new DSLR's this year, now we can expect 3!. Not that I'm complaining, but for Canon needs to hit some home runs real soon.


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## mb66energy (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



fullstop said:


> Canapologist BS! ;D
> 
> a percentage battery charge indicator can be and is implemented in even the cheapest smartphones. Luckily those are not made by Canon ... ;D



Yes, I have built a scale with load cell, arduino and lcd display for about 20 EUR and you can display @ 10ug resolution while repeatability is roughly 10mg (at the moment without thermal isolation of the load cell which will cost three times the money and 20 times the development to come down to e.g. 1mg real resolution.

So
(1) How good are battery indicators of smart phones? My 700EUR Nokia shows 100% for hours after I switched to charge it between 20 ... 90% (not 0 ... 100%).
(2) Do smartphones have current dynamics between 10uA and 3 Amps peak load? I don't think so.
(3) Is the standard use case of temperature for smartphones not between 20°C (room) and 34°C (pocket close to body)? Definitely - but not for cameras.


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## crashpc (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

mb66energy
That is nonsense really. Better measurements take about no hardware resources, and very little software resources. It actually goes along the way of interpreting real percentage by squares nobody understands to....
That is way too stewpid to do these days. At least give it per pixel amount of battery left. So you can see gradually lets say in 30 pixels (battery indicator width/lenght).


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## mb66energy (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



crashpc said:


> mb66energy
> That is nonsense really. Better measurements take about no hardware resources, and very little software resources. It actually goes along the way of interpreting real percentage by squares nobody understands to....
> That is way too stewpid to do these days. At least give it per pixel amount of battery left. So you can see gradually lets say in 30 pixels (battery indicator width/lenght).



crashpc:
If you say my remarks are nonsense please make "senseful" explanations how "Better measurements take about no hardware resources" - I am ready to learn how industry has overcome 50 years of interpreting battery capacity WITH better hardware resources ...


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## weixing (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

Hi,


crashpc said:


> mb66energy
> That is nonsense really. Better measurements take about no hardware resources, and very little software resources. It actually goes along the way of interpreting real percentage by squares nobody understands to....
> That is way too stewpid to do these days. At least give it per pixel amount of battery left. So you can see gradually lets say in 30 pixels (battery indicator width/lenght).


 Accurate battery measurement is not easy especially for device that don't draw power constantly.... for notebook and mobile phone, you can calibrate your battery to get a more "accurate" measurement. But for DSLR, I'm sure how you going to calibrate your DSLR battery? Since when you are not clicking, the power usage is basically minimum. For mirrorless camera, I guess it might be easier since the camera is always processing image.

Have a nice day.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



mb66energy said:


> crashpc:
> If you say my remarks are nonsense please make "senseful" explanations how "Better measurements take about no hardware resources" - I am ready to learn how industry has overcome 50 years of interpreting battery capacity WITH better hardware resources ...



Don't hold your breath. This seems to be a case of technical criticism by someone who lacks relevant technical knowledge. That sort of thing is regrettably common on this forum.


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## crashpc (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

DOH.

Yes, it might even depend on the battery level interpretation. If one wants to see steady decline of the battery level, that is the hard one.

If you´re about real "power left" indication, hell make two maps/curves for heavy load and light load (laboratory measurements using real loads), then apply few coeficients for real voltages on real piece of your accumulator (in-body calibration after few charging and discharging sessions, and even re-calibration after that, as battery capacity and current capabilities go down), and you´re done. Nothing one good engineer could not make in one or two days. With a power supply, volt meter, amper meter, a resistor (or real camera) and a logger.

You might find difficulty, uncertainty, less then ideal precision here and there, but it will always be million times more usable and precise than three to four bars.
For my previous EOS M, they did poor job already, as when I saw first bar to go dim, I knew I have only miutes left before it dies on me. With M6, it is much better, but still weak.
Gosh, it´s Canon, the leading company, right????


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## crashpc (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



neuroanatomist said:


> mb66energy said:
> 
> 
> > crashpc:
> ...



Heh, when you mentioned it, that is slight miss from your another attempt to put down people personally.
DYIer, repair technician and engineer in electronics for 12 years now. 
But I have no clue.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

Back to the actual topic, a possible FF MILC using an LP-E6 battery is encouraging. It suggests a body size of at least an xxD series, which I think is far preferable to a smaller form factor that becomes an ergonomic challenge with larger lenses like f/2.8 zooms.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



crashpc said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > mb66energy said:
> ...



Indeed. It's so simple...I'm surprised Canon and Nikon haven't hired you to do it for them. You should contact them and offer your services, your offer might be well received (but I won't hold my breath). 

Incidentally, I recently had a repair technician out to clean and check my central air conditioning system, but I wouldn't trust him to design components for it. But you're probably a much better technician.


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## fullstop (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



neuroanatomist said:


> ... a possible FF MILC using an LP-E6 battery is encouraging. It suggests a body size of at least an xxD series, ...



Yes, looks like it. 

Interestingly, in A7 III / A9 Sony uses a power pack with 22.6% more charge but only 9.6% more volume than LP-E6N. So - a really good 1800 mAH battery pack could in 2018 possibly be made compact enough to fit into an FF MILC the size of a Sony A7 1st gen [which would be close/r to my preferred size] ... ;D

--------------

Canon LP-E6N Specifications
Battery type:	Rechargeable Lithium-Ion power pack
Compatibility:	Canon 5D Mark IV & other selected Canon cameras
Voltage: 7.2V DC
Capacity: 1865mAh or 900 shots (CIPA) with the Canon 5D Mark IV
Dimensions:	56 x 20 x 38mm
Weight: 79g

Sony NP-FZ100 Specifications
Battery type:	Rechargeable Lithium-Ion power pack
Compatibility:	Sony A7 III & other selected Sony cameras
Voltage: 7.2V DC
Capacity: 2280mAh or 610 shots (CIPA) with the Sony A7 III
Dimensions:	52 x 23 x 39mm
Weight: 85g


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## crashpc (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*

Neuro, Canon obviously has better engineers than I am. But it is shame that they are not allowed, for some reason, to do the good job. When I can do it, they can do it one handed, while picking nose with the other hand, obviously. Yet, it didn´t happen. So back to Canon milking their customers...

That was cool story, about you thinking something of your AC repair technician. Really helped to understand the situation.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



crashpc said:


> Neuro, Canon obviously has better engineers than I am. But it is shame that they are not allowed, for some reason, to do the good job. When I can do it, they can do it one handed, while picking nose with the other hand, obviously. Yet, it didn´t happen. So back to Canon milking their customers...



I fail to see how providing a graphical 'bar' display for battery charge, instead of a numerical percentage readout, constitutes 'Canon milking their customers'. Can you explain your reasoning? Does knowing at a glance whether there is 'a lot', 'some', or 'not much' charge left have a detrimental impact on your photography, or conversely would knowing that you have 77% or 24% charge remaining improve your images or give you profound pleasure while using your camera? Does the bar-based charge display make your life meaningless, or send you to that dark place from which escape is difficult? Sounds like a very petty complaint to me. I wonder…if canon _were_ to provide a numerical percentage readout for battery charge level, would you complain that it was not accurate to three significant figures? Is displaying that your battery has 63% charge 'milking their customers' when they could display the remaining charge as 63.274%?


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## mkabi (Jun 25, 2018)

What makes you guys think its going to be a DSLR or FF MILC?

What battery does the XC10/XC15 use again?


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## Kit. (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



crashpc said:


> Heh, when you mentioned it, that is slight miss from your another attempt to put down people personally.
> DYIer, repair technician and engineer in electronics for 12 years now.
> But I have no clue.


Actually, if you are engineer, you will probably not want to make a gauge with the precision an order of magnitude higher than the accuracy of the value it displays.


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## crashpc (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



Kit. said:


> crashpc said:
> 
> 
> > Heh, when you mentioned it, that is slight miss from your another attempt to put down people personally.
> ...



That equation doesn´t hold up well. 
Why not? If your display medium cannot display the precise value, you simply round it accordingly, so to speak. 
Then you have precise meter "once for all", and you scale the output accordingly for the device/display. That is, changing one or few variables in your code. Legs on the table.


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## fullstop (Jun 25, 2018)

millions of smartphone users and i prefer to get a clear indication of remaining battery charge in any mobile device that is dependent on battery power. 

It helps to plan ahead, especially when one is forced to use customer-milking whimpy old Canon batteries like the infamous LP-E12 in the EOS M50. Even if the percentage is not precise to the 3rd digit after the comma, it is way better to see "18% charge remaining" and be able to quickly change battery rather than running out of power just when a once in a lifetime shot presents itself because 3-bar indicator still showed 3 or 2 bars until battery is nearly empty. 

But beyond that - "3 or 4 bar charge indicators" are derelict fossils of the "electronic middle ages" (1970s) and simply no longer adequate in 2018. I simply do not want to see stuff like that in expensive, "hi grade" cameras from a self-proclaimed, innovative "leader in digital imaging", when there are functionally superior solutions readily available. 

But of course, "Canapologists" see it differently: to them, Canon can not suck enough in any feature to not defend it anyways.


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## crashpc (Jun 25, 2018)

fullstop:
You know what´s worst? That sooner(later) or even later, Canon brings it to the table, not in a very quiet way, and we, customers, should pretend, that we´re shitting ourselves because of the innovation.
Like, it is all important, they know they need to do it, they do it later, but at the time the feature isn´t present, we´re just whiners. That is all BS.


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## BeenThere (Jun 25, 2018)

The way I use the bty indicator on my camera is:

If it is one bar down (or more) from full at the end of the day, then I charge it overnight.
If is is one bar from being exhausted while shooting (if I notice) then I change it out for a fresh one at the first opportunity.

I apologize in advance for saying that this works well for me.


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



crashpc said:


> mb66energy
> That is nonsense really. Better measurements take about no hardware resources, and very little software resources. It actually goes along the way of interpreting real percentage by squares nobody understands to....
> That is way too stewpid to do these days. At least give it per pixel amount of battery left. So you can see gradually lets say in 30 pixels (battery indicator width/lenght).



You can not enable with software something which isn’t present in the configuration. That would be like adding GPS to a camera by flashing its FPGA.

The hardware resources for a more accurate State of Charge indicator would most likely be packaged in the battery, not in the camera (you could put it in the camera, but since most camera batteries are charged externally, you’d have to duplicate it in the charger). The camera processor communicates with the battery to display remaining charge, which is typically computed by an IC using an integral function of current and time.

I don’t know if canon stylizes its intelligent batteries, but the aforementioned (by AVTVM in reply 31) Sony FZ100 is marketed as “iNFOlithium” because of the charge monitoring.


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## fullstop (Jun 25, 2018)

Just for good balance: I also WINCE, "WHINE" and LAUGH - seeing "Sony's approach to battery charge indication".  ;D







If I were using one, I would RANT! ;D ;D ;D


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 25, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> The way I use the bty indicator on my camera is:
> 
> If it is one bar down (or more) from full at the end of the day, then I charge it overnight.
> If is is one bar from being exhausted while shooting (if I notice) then I change it out for a fresh one at the first opportunity.
> ...



Same here, it’s a practical approach.

But I guess some people may find photography a bit boring, and watching the battery level change in 1% decrements would give them something to do. “Maybe this next shutter press will be the one that drops it from 69% to 68%...ooooooooo, I hope so, it’s so exciting to watch a number change!”


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## ahsanford (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



neuroanatomist said:


> Back to the actual topic, a possible FF MILC using an LP-E6 battery is encouraging. It suggests a body size of at least an xxD series, which I think is far preferable to a smaller form factor that becomes an ergonomic challenge with larger lenses like f/2.8 zooms.



+1. Bigger battery (specifically this one that we know the form factor of) = a chunkier grip, which is essential for a FF ILC as Neuro points out. And a chunky grip reads well for those wanting a top LCD.

But Neuro, I'm lost -- the only models with the larger battery (that we know of) on this list are both SLRs, correct? K436 and K437, right?

(Edit: I see, you must be referring to the updated info, the DS 126721?)

- A


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 25, 2018)

fullstop said:


> If I were using one, I would RANT! ;D ;D ;D


When did you ever let lack of personal use stop you from ranting?


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## fullstop (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



3kramd5 said:


> You can not enable with software something which isn’t present in the configuration. That would be like adding GPS to a camera by flashing its FPGA.
> 
> The hardware resources for a more accurate State of Charge indicator would most likely be packaged in the battery, not in the camera (you could put it in the camera, but since most camera batteries are charged externally, you’d have to duplicate it in the charger). The camera processor communicates with the battery to display remaining charge, which is typically computed by an IC using an integral function of current and time.
> 
> I don’t know if canon stylizes its intelligent batteries, but the aforementioned (by AVTVM in reply 31) Sony FZ100 is marketed as “iNFOlithium” because of the charge monitoring.



No need to go into technical detail. It suffices, that percent charge remaining is implemented on any smartphone. And is implemented also in many Canon cameras - like 5D3 - but only VISIBLE via "menu diving" under "battery information". So hardware - camera + battery - and firmware/software seems to be CAPABLE of showing % battery charge. Even in Canon cameras.

But Canon marketing nerfs and decides to "differentiate" cameras by putting either a 3 or 4 segment battery charge indicator on the rear display. Via software!


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



fullstop said:


> No need to go into technical detail



Technical detail is one of the things which sets this venue above others. I’ll contribute it when I can. 



fullstop said:


> It suffices, that percent charge remaining is implemented on any smartphone.



Some, not all. Also, the Apple iPod Touch devices, for example, lack percentage readout (at least they did a couple years ago when I got one for my son). 

You could write software to display a percentage in the same way you can write software to display bars. If the proper hardware hooks are not present, that percentage may be no more accurate than the several bar scheme despite providing the precision of 100 bars. 

Incidentally, many phones are capable of displaying the actual power of the signal, but people seem to prefer service “bars” or “dots.” I wonder why that’s is? Maybe we’ve been conditioned to Apple’s, Samsung’s, Nokia’s, LG’s, RIM’s, Google’s, and Huawei’s nerfing.


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## fullstop (Jun 25, 2018)

There really is no *technical* reason whatsoever why Canon cameras could not also display battery charge both with bars and % number. Why not like this, STUPID Canon? 






Bigger picture to study in full detail how Sony has managed to implement the *exceedingly difficult to achieve technological feat* ... a "dual info battery charge indicator"! OMG! ;D 
https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/30/17176246/sony-a7-a7r-iii-alpha-3-mirrorless-camera-review-specs-price


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 25, 2018)

fullstop said:


> There really is no *technical* reason whatsoever why Canon cameras could not also display battery charge both with bars and %


Correct. It is technically feasible. In the cases where they do not display a somewhat meaningful percentage, you now know the reason (battery doesn’t have the circuitry).

I rented the R3 and played with it for 4 days. It’s a *marked* improvement over the R2, like: whole different camera different. If the usability stuff they put into the third generation had been in the second generation (all of which was technically feasible at the time, Sony marketing nerfed the r2 obviously), I probably would have kept mine. 

This is a whole lot of ranting for something you don’t/won’t use. Glad we’re back to baseline!


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## fullstop (Jun 25, 2018)

don't get me started on DUMB Canon batteries. Or do I really need to mention that whimpy 2012 LP-E12 Canon stuck into a 2018 camera?  ;D

btw: "service bars/dots" on phones - my "conspiracy theory" is, that service providers are pushing/forcing this type of info presentation. prefer to keep things "rather intransparent, murky and unprecise", otherwise users would notice even more, how bad signal service often is. Maybe not so different from Canon's reasons to NOT clearly show things like battery charge or focus distance - neither in camera nor in EXIF data [unless that has been fixed recently].


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 25, 2018)

fullstop said:


> btw: "service bars/dots" on phones - my "conspiracy theory" is, that service providers are pushing/forcing this type of info presentation. prefer to keep things "rather intransparent, murky and unprecise", otherwise users would notice even more, how bad signal service often is



Maaaaybe. I’m more inclined to thinking they don’t expect the average user to understand the logarithmic scale, and would freak out at negative values.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 25, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > btw: "service bars/dots" on phones - my "conspiracy theory" is, that service providers are pushing/forcing this type of info presentation. prefer to keep things "rather intransparent, murky and unprecise", otherwise users would notice even more, how bad signal service often is
> ...



what negative values? Mobile phone signal strength at worst is zero. And percentages are easy to understand. 100% = "Optimal" = whatever defined "physical field strength" that may be. 0% = zero. Everything in between is straightforward linear. 

Personally I hate logarithmic scales and do not see any need for them in daily life / consumer goods. Scientific/engineering use fine, whatever. But NEVER EVER on displays of consumer devices. very bad usability. Same as "db" values on volume knobs. It goes from "silent" [0] to "max" [11]. ;-) 

PS: volume level "11" is defined as "so loud that police will break down my door within 11 minutes".


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



fullstop said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > ... a possible FF MILC using an LP-E6 battery is encouraging. It suggests a body size of at least an xxD series, ...
> ...


Sony is one of the leading manufacturers of Li-on batteries and was the first, so they should be at the forefront. The technology is pretty much the same right now, but big improvements may be coming. ( https://www.computerworld.com/article/3183670/computer-hardware/inventor-of-new-lithium-ion-battery-responds-to-skepticism.html) to get more capacity, you make the insulation thinner, which makes for more melt downs in cases where the thinner insulating barrier fails. So, its a tradeoff, reliability versus capacity. Canon does tend to opt for the conservative side of things. While Sony batteries and Nikon batteries get recalled, I don't recall that happening to Canon.


----------



## ahsanford (Jun 25, 2018)

Again, I appreciate this _enthralling_ discussion of alleged battery nerfing :, but we are driving around a MUCH bigger piece of news here: a bunch of new bodies appearing to be en route and they don't naturally line up with what we were expecting. *Discuss!*

And it's a decent bet that at least one of the above is part of all these certifications. So the question is: which one is it?

DS126721: Mirrorless or SLR. Larger battery = chunky gripped SLR (90D, 7D3, 5DS2/5DSR2) or FF mirrorless?

D436: SLR, presumed less fancy due to 4-stage battery. Guess would be new Rebel for Q1 2019 release (which would be right on time for its two year cycle).

D437: SLR, presumed more fancy due to 6-stage battery. This is the anybody's guess item -- 90D, 7D3, or 5DS2/5DSR2. My money's on a 90D coming out first.

K424 / K433 / EC 811 = Three new mirrorless cameras. M5 Mk II? M6 Mk II? Multiple colors of the same lower-level MXX or MXXX camera?

- A


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



3kramd5 said:


> Some, not all. Also, the Apple iPod Touch devices, for example, lack percentage readout.
> 
> Incidentally, many phones are capable of displaying the actual power of the signal, but people seem to prefer service “bars” or “dots.” I wonder why that’s is? Maybe we’ve been conditioned to Apple’s, Samsung’s, Nokia’s, LG’s, RIM’s, Google’s, and Huawei’s nerfing.



Indeed. Even on my iPhone, which can display the % charge, that setting is off by default. 

Because a thing _can_ be done, doesn't mean it _should_ be done. 

Should the camera also display the readout from the internal temperature sensor(s)? Number of images recorded on the inserted memory card(s) and total space used along with total space available and estimated shots remaining (which, of course, switches to durations and space for video shooting, except stills can be captured during video and one-touch movie recording is possible, so better display both used and available space as images, movie durations, and GB with five significant figures). Lens focal length, focus distance, DoF, external flash head zoom and power level and temperature and battery level, yeah, people need that info. Available DR, lens transmittance, physical diameter of the aperture, sure, display those too. But some people might only want to see some of that, so add 7 new menu tabs for those settings. 

Or they could Keep It Simple, Stupid.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 25, 2018)

ElBerryKM13 said:


> This forum reminds me of macrumors forum where if you criticize apple you get attacked by a lot of their members for pointing out such flaws.
> 
> Had a chuckle reading mb66energy and neuroanatomist making excuses for canon. I guess blind fans are everywhere lol.



Yes, anyone who shares your bias is spot on, anyone who doesn't is just making excuses. Now _that's_ worth a chuckle.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 25, 2018)

Just for the record, I do recall recalls  also with Canon batteries and "product advisories"

e.g. 
shorturl.at/uGNU2
shorturl.at/kwZ08

Personally I never had an issue with OEM Canon batteries and am quite pleased with the LP-E6/N type. 
NB-2L /NB-2LH in early Powershots were real dogs however. 
And the LP-E12 may be safe, but it is whimpy.


----------



## ahsanford (Jun 25, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Why not like this, STUPID Canon?



Ah, there it is. I feel like Steve Urkel was in disguise with a fake mustache and Sherlock Holmes hat, but he _just_ couldn't resist blurting out a "Did I do that?!"

- A


----------



## fullstop (Jun 25, 2018)

well I bet there is not only 1 person who thinks Canon and/or their products are pretty STUPID at times. ;D


----------



## jayphotoworks (Jun 25, 2018)

fullstop said:


> There really is no *technical* reason whatsoever why Canon cameras could not also display battery charge both with bars and % number. Why not like this, STUPID Canon?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think battery % is quite convenient on the rear display. When I am shooting video on a gimbal, I have a much better idea of my battery life that doesn't fall somewhere between 49% and 20% without diving into menus. I can't just slide out and swap the battery without having to take the entire gimbal sled off. 

Would I consider this nitpicking since Canon doesn't have it? Sure. Could I survive shooting without it? Sure. Do I have to? Definitely not.. This is one of many reasons I don't shoot with Canon bodies anymore for video.


----------



## Talys (Jun 25, 2018)

jayphotoworks said:


> I think battery % is quite convenient on the rear display. When I am shooting video on a gimbal, I have a much better idea of my battery life that doesn't fall somewhere between 49% and 20% without diving into menus. I can't just slide out and swap the battery without having to take the entire gimbal sled off.
> 
> Would I consider this nitpicking since Canon doesn't have it? Sure. Could I survive shooting without it? Sure. Do I have to? Definitely not.. This is one of many reasons I don't shoot with Canon bodies anymore for video.



Battery % is convenient on mirrorless. I don't really care on a DSLR, because it takes a lot of effort to kill an LP6 that's fully charged, and it's almost impossible to use two of them in a single day, even if the one in the camera only has a partial charge in it. I mean, I don't even look at the battery meter on my 6D2 before I head out, even if I'm going to be taking wildlife photos for the next 12 hours, or doing an on-location 10 hour product shoot. There's a spare that's fully charged in the bag if I need it, but even a half-full battery will do a whole day of birding.

In casual, general shooting, or on a B-cam, or my glovebox 80D, a battery can last for weeks (or even months) without going to the charger, and without the camera even being turned off.

When I was using the Sony, I wouldn't head out without 2 fully charged batteries, because it's quite easy to blow through one. To be safe, I need a grip with 2 batteries (one may be partially discharged) and another fully charged one.

I suppose on an M5, it would be nice to show %, but as it is not a camera I own, it just hasn't come up.

@fullstop - personally, I hate all the stuff all around the screen (Canon, Sony, it doesn't matter). I want to focus on the photography, not see a screen full of icons. Fortunately, most of them have a way to turn off all the busy stuff. Would be great if you could customize what you saw on the screen there.

Personally, I would like (a) a battery that I didn't have to worry much about the charge of and (b) a top display that showed the battery status, that I just need to check once in a long while. 

If mirrorless are so small, make it big again and give it a battery that's four times the charge in a "pro" cam so that I can just charge it once and not worry about it when I head off. I'm going to use a 1.5kg, 8" lens or bigger on it anyways.


----------



## crashpc (Jun 25, 2018)

Got good chuckle about negative signal values readings.
Now it turns out who is the engineer and electro guy, and who just assertive nut with no usable arguments.
As it has been pointed out, battery percentage has different value to it. You can decide based on the reading easily. When you would have percentage on your signal, what would be your decision? 
See the dis-similarities?

The hardware is there. The argument the hardware isn´t there is really uninformed guess from somebody who doesn´t have a clue how processors work. Especially in-house made DIGIC would be shameful to not have this feature. Correction. Many times, two of these and some more stuff around!
As usual, this is shame to continue. It is very unequal fight between devs/techs and politics and trolls.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 25, 2018)

fullstop said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > fullstop said:
> ...



Personal radio signal strength is typically conveyed in decibel (edit: pardon the typo) milliwatt. 0dBm is much stronger than the Rx on a phone.

The range of power between good signals and poor signals is very extreme. Displaying it in decimal would be odd.

For example, -50dBm would be a good signal, probably “full bars.” I currently have a very weak signal, -140dBm. There’s a ratio of 1 billion-to-one between those numbers. In decimal: 10000 picowatts versus .00001 picowatts. Even if you presupposed some maximum signal strength and assigned to it 100%, the scale would be confusing. Is 100% twice as strong as 50%? Is 10% ten times stronger than 1%? 

Hence: dBm in personal Rx/Tx devices, and non-linear arbitrarily defined bars displayed on consumer devices.


----------



## Talys (Jun 25, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



Pfft. The solution is obvious. There should be 1 billion horizontal pixels that fill up as there is more signal! ;D

Your point is precisely the way cell phone bars work the way they do -- it's intended to tell you if you have good reception or not, because at the end of the day, you should only care about whether reception is going to be good or poor for a phone call.

Coming back around to cameras, the reason for a battery meter _for me_ is to know whether I need to swap a battery before I head out, or charge it when I come home. I don't really care whether I have 3% or 8%, or 88% or 94%. In the former.. charge it. In the latter, leave it in the bag.

With a DSLR... long photography day = make sure battery has 3-4 bars. Grabbing a camera to take a few pictures, just make sure the battery indicator isn't flashing. Simple, right?


----------



## -1 (Jun 25, 2018)

CR wrote: "Canon test cameras code named: “K424” “K433” “EC 811”

These are confirmed to be mirrorless cameras

Beyond the EOS M5 Mark II, the other model names are unknown at this time."

Soo... Two "*K*iss" crop EF-M with EVF and one *E*F *C*ompatible FF???


----------



## ahsanford (Jun 25, 2018)

-1 said:


> CR wrote: "Canon test cameras code named: “K424” “K433” “EC 811”
> 
> These are confirmed to be mirrorless cameras
> 
> ...



Am I idiotic for thinking that an M6 Mark II will logically come out alongside an M5 Mark II?

- A


----------



## DaveGrice (Jun 25, 2018)

Holy moly! I feel like it's a Yeti sighting. 

Rumors about upcoming Canon bodies that show promise of not disappointing? Oh, happy day. 

C'mon 7D3, pulling for you!


----------



## bokehmon22 (Jun 25, 2018)

We should get more confirmation and rumors near Photokina in Sept. 
My wallet is ready if Canon deliver a decent FF mirrorless


----------



## jolyonralph (Jun 25, 2018)

Fingers crossed for 5DSR II!


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 25, 2018)

Talys said:


> Pfft. The solution is obvious. There should be 1 billion horizontal pixels that fill up as there is more signal! ;D



I like it! 



Talys said:


> Your point is precisely the way cell phone bars work the way they do -- it's intended to tell you if you have good reception or not, because at the end of the day, you should only care about whether reception is going to be good or poor for a phone call.
> 
> Coming back around to cameras, the reason for a battery meter _for me_ is to know whether I need to swap a battery before I head out, or charge it when I come home. I don't really care whether I have 3% or 8%, or 88% or 94%. In the former.. charge it. In the latter, leave it in the bag.



Agreed. While cell strength is a bit of a non sequitur, I bring it up because the usefulness is similar. As a user, I don’t need milliwatt level knowledge of a signal. Similarly. I don’t need coulomb level knowledge of battery charge.

That being said, more precision than quintiles (or 4 or 6, whatever the case may be) is useful to help predict remaining battery life, since it varies significantly based on how you’re using the camera at the time.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 25, 2018)

crashpc said:


> Got good chuckle about negative signal values readings.
> Now it turns out who is the engineer and electro guy, and who just assertive nut with no usable arguments.



Got a good hearty guffaw about your chuckle.

You probably don’t even realize that you’ve put yourself squarely in the latter category – an assertive nut with no usable arguments.

Please try to gain a proper understanding of the concepts you’re arguing about, then if you feel up to it, come back to discuss them. In the meantime, you may want to avoid posting statements that only serve to demonstrate your lack of understanding.

Here’s some light reading that may help you out (and perhaps others):

https://supportforums.cisco.com/t5/small-business-support-documents/*why-is-almost-everything-negative-in-wireless*/ta-p/3159743


----------



## fullstop (Jun 25, 2018)

hehe. I know, why i absolutely hate logarithmic stuff. Luckily in business the first rules of arithmetic are fully sufficient to be successful. 

PS: where i personally encounter the total disconnect between "wireless/engineering brain mode" and "real world user perspective" most is not cameras and not even cell phones, but *avalanche beacons*. Yes, I can wrap my head around the fact that radio waves spread out in a spherical pattern from the sender. But on a 2018 avalanche transceiver i want to see a display with a green dot [=me] and red dot/s [=buried victims] and 2 numerical values - how many meters away? How deep under the surface? That's all I need to hopefully find and dig out my buried friend/s in in time. It took many decades to get engineers/developers of those devices until they FINALLY put freaking 3 or 4 antennae into those things and a CPU powerful enough to display things the way I and almost all other users find it most intuitive and useful. Until then, they all wanted to LECTURE us on "false signal", "double peaks" and cr*p like that. I understand that concepts like those are important for them and near and dear to their hearts. I admit and accept that I don't have the slightest idea how those devices really work. I don't care. I don't want to build them or service them. All i want is to use them. Intuitively. 

Same for cars, washing machines, micro-wave ovens, cameras, lenses and all other "technical gear". I want to use those ... as tools to get done what I want to get done. And I want my tools to be as intuitive in use as possible. Asking too much? ;D


----------



## unfocused (Jun 25, 2018)

This thread illustrates that some people will argue over the most ridiculous stuff. It’s a battery level indicator. Who cares?


----------



## crashpc (Jun 25, 2018)

So we´re obviously going to overpower each other with who is more assertive and mean, right neuro?
Okay, I stop it for you with this last post. Again...


----------



## mb66energy (Jun 25, 2018)

crashpc said:


> Got good chuckle about negative signal values readings.
> Now it turns out who is the engineer and electro guy, and who just assertive nut with no usable arguments.
> As it has been pointed out, battery percentage has different value to it. You can decide based on the reading easily. When you would have percentage on your signal, what would be your decision?
> See the dis-similarities?
> ...



Very interesting idea to measure current, voltage and internal battery temperature to calculate the remaining capacity of a battery with a DIGIC CPU  The stuff around you added later makes it possible and it has to be - at least some parts of it - inside the battery.

Than you have to integrate over the power to get the energy transfer from battery to camera AND you have to know the initial energy content of the battery INCLUDING THE TEMPERATURE-DEPENDANT capacity corrections.
A reading of 18% is only helpful if it belongs to the standard capacity at standard conditions e.g. 20°C. If you only measure the voltage of the battery you have a relative capacity which is varying with temperature.
That's what I tried to say / write that the comparison between a mobile and a camera is like comparing apples with mice.

I am not defending Canon - I just tried to make clear that a %-number isn't helpful if it isn't reliable and that a simple indicator is, at least in low...mid level DSLRs, good enough for 99% of their users.

STOP

@unfocused: I think a battery level indicator is not too ridiculous especially for pros who use their equipment to the limit (e.g. photography in antarctica @-30°C) - but parts of the discussion are! Sorry if I contributed to it too much!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 25, 2018)

I guess a simple, "I was wrong," is beyond some people.


----------



## Kit. (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



crashpc said:


> Kit. said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, if you are engineer, you will probably not want to make a gauge with the precision an order of magnitude higher than the accuracy of the value it displays.
> ...


You seem to misunderstand the problem. The precision of the scale may be "fine"; it's the accuracy of what you want to display on the scale what is lacking.

If you are an engineer, you must know the difference, and would not want this "overprecise" scale to be lying to you, telling you that it "knows" the remaining battery charge better than it really does.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 25, 2018)

unfocused said:


> This thread illustrates that some people will argue over the most ridiculous stuff. It’s a battery level indicator. Who cares?



i do. Only Canapologists would not.


----------



## ahsanford (Jun 25, 2018)

Meanwhile, back on topic, a less-than-reliable rumor aggregator than CR is claiming they have a source who says the following:

K436 = 80D Mk II (not 90D)
K437 = 7D3
EC 811 = M5 Mk II

...with all three having the same new 28 MP AA-filter-free APS-C sensor. :

We can pick this apart a host of ways, but I think the obvious steaming turd to this rumor would be K436 -- with a Rebel-class battery -- being put into a product line heretofore rocking the bigger LP-E6/N battery that the nicer cameras get. On paper, if K436 is an SLR getting a smaller battery, good money says it's the next Rebel and not the next 80D.

- A


----------



## dak723 (Jun 25, 2018)

fullstop said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > This thread illustrates that some people will argue over the most ridiculous stuff. It’s a battery level indicator. Who cares?
> ...



No. Plenty of people don't care. That doesn't make them Canopoligists. Just like those that whine about it aren't all trolls. Some clearly are, but not all. The fact that your logic is ridiculously stupid and that you have to lump everyone into your self-made category in order to insult them, proves that you are a troll.


----------



## BillB (Jun 25, 2018)

fullstop said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > This thread illustrates that some people will argue over the most ridiculous stuff. It’s a battery level indicator. Who cares?
> ...


 
A Canapologist being anyone who doesn't buy into paranoid speculations about why Canon does what it does (and whether it has any importance).


----------



## ahsanford (Jun 25, 2018)

fullstop said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > This thread illustrates that some people will argue over the most ridiculous stuff. It’s a battery level indicator. Who cares?
> ...



I'll actually bite on this -- not as a battery comment, but as a general forum conduct comment.

Just stop. Consider the edit above.

'I care about this and _only bad people don't care about this'_ does not show respect, insight, or a willingness to debate. Try "I respectfully disagree -- I actually care about this feature and here's why..." Which you tried to do in your inartful way. Well done, now walk away.

But this whole 'You are part of the solution or you are part of the problem' implies the haymaker you believe you have so awesomely connected on is more important than the actual discussion we all came here for. This is a discussion forum, not a place you win or lose.

Again: stop. When those impulses arise, consider being the better person and walking away. Even if I tire of your antics, I believe in your better self, FullAvTvMStop. You can do it! 

- A


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 25, 2018)

fullstop said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > This thread illustrates that some people will argue over the most ridiculous stuff. It’s a battery level indicator. Who cares?
> ...



I think if you go back to this particular branch of the thread, you’ll find that people are either indifferent to a percentage indicator (e.g. I don’t need it) or supportive (e.g. it is nice to have or I need it). I have a foot in both camps (I don’t need it but it is nice to have). Additionally, you’ll find discussion about whether it is something a software engineering intern can meaningfully add over his lunch break, or whether hardware needs to support it.

I don’t think you’ll find anyone “apologizing” for it not being there.

I see many people who advocate for dedicated exposure comp dials. I have no interest in an exposure comp dial; I didn’t use it once in ~25,000 shots with my A7R2. Don’t care. One being there wouldn’t stop me from purchasing a canon camera, but neither would my indifference be motivated by an impulse to defend canon. It’s similar to your feelings on video, over the lack of which someone could play the same “nerf” card and accuse you of being a paid shill for defending. 

I think that’s your biggest disconnect. People aren’t apologizing for Canon merely because their priorities differ from your own, they just don’t see a % indicator on a battery to be compelling.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 25, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Meanwhile, back on topic, a less-than-reliable rumor aggregator than CR is claiming they have a source who says the following:
> 
> K436 = 80D Mk II (not 90D)
> K437 = 7D3
> ...



---

I am REALLY TEMPTED to say.....I TOLD YOU SO!

....but....we'll wait and see what Canon comes out with on their update to something that MAY look like or act like the XC-15 (i.e. an interchangeable lens one inch chip combined stills/video camera), OR....the new M5-like Mirrorless which POSSIBLY has a short flange distance, AND....a likely by 2019 new large sensor MF dslr!

An 80D/90D replacement/update seems a tad too conveniently close to the introduction to the M50 in my opinion. I would more suspect that a 7D Mark3 like camera or maybe even an update to a 5D SR2 with better burst frame rate and lower noise could be in the pipeline! The development costs to do those updates are NOWHERE NEAR my above assertions and would definitely make for a timely interim solution to best some of Sony's recent offerings!

I haven't received too much different from my own sources within the last three weeks, so I am now in the dark about as much as you all are here! All I hear nowadays is more blurbs about an XC-15 like one inch sensor interchangeable lens camera, an M5-like APS-C system and a large sensor MF camera!

REMEMBER! YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST !!!!!!!!!


----------



## Talys (Jun 25, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



+1


----------



## fullstop (Jun 25, 2018)

no, if you look at responses. The minute i said, sad that Canon registration descriptions hinge on tiny marketing nerfs like 3 vs. 4 segment battery indicators, Canapologists immediately started apologizing Canon. Stating "oh how difficult it is", "hardware", "software", yada yada, wehn Sony can do it and any smartphone maker in China can do it. And all the while there are Canon cameras and batteries and hard- and software that perfectly can show percentage charge, but only via menu diving. Nothing but apologies, apologies. 

And while it is certainly not the most important element on a camera, it is not only an indicator fpor remining battery charge but also INDICATIVE who Canon cuts every single little corner it can cut. Nickling and diming its customers all the way, nerfing their products, creating totally unnecessary "feature differentiation", that in truth has no cost associated with it. That's what I am calling them out for. And my calling them out drives the Canapologists into total frenzy. Every single time. 

I call Canon out, they canapologize. No matter whether it is more than 18% shot reach that Canon stiffs their paying M50 customers for, whether it is a 1970s style 3-segment charge indicator on some Rebel - it does not matter. Marketing nerf is marketing nerf. And no matter how stupid the nerf is, some people here will start to launch apologies for Canon. That's what I find strange and amusing at the same time.


----------



## scyrene (Jun 25, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



mb66energy said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > Canapologist BS! ;D
> ...



Your replies are interesting and informative, but they fall on deaf ears. You're talking to someone who has no interest whatsoever in how things work, and the moment something is explained, they resort to insults and obfuscation.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 25, 2018)

fullstop said:


> no, if you look at responses. The minute i said, sad that Canon registration descriptions hinge on tiny marketing nerfs like 3 vs. 4 segment battery indicators, Canapologists immediately started apologizing Canon. Stating "oh how difficult it is



What actually happened is:
You made an assertion that percentage charge indication is nothing more than a tiny bit of firmware. You were immediately corrected, and it went from there. 

“It might be a minor addition to the code load if the battery used has the circuitry.” That’s it; that’s the dispassionate discussion you attribute to knee jerk devotion.


----------



## scyrene (Jun 26, 2018)

ElBerryKM13 said:


> This forum reminds me of macrumors forum where if you criticize apple you get attacked by a lot of their members for pointing out such flaws.
> 
> Had a chuckle reading mb66energy and neuroanatomist making excuses for canon. I guess blind fans are everywhere lol.



I wish I could say I chuckled at your brainless contribution, but alas it just makes my opinion of humanity drop a tiny bit more.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 26, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> What actually happened is:
> You made an assertion that percentage charge indication is nothing more than a tiny bit of firmware. You were immediately corrected, and it went from there.



I was not corrected. I delivered prof, that that tiny piece of firmware is already implemented in many Canon cameras, like in the 5D3. So obviosly all the hardware needed is in place, both camera and battery-side [LP-E6/N, likely with other models too]. So all the techno-babble was totally irrelevant. It is a tiny little piece of code. Nothing else. 

Putting only a "4-stage" or "6-stage" battery charge indicator on 2018 cameras but no percentage or hiding the percentage in the menu system is .. inadequate. That's what I said and not 1 millimeter of it can be "corrected".


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 26, 2018)

fullstop said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > What actually happened is:
> ...



Lol. Okay.


----------



## dak723 (Jun 26, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



Yes, sometimes you have to let the baby cry, have their little tantrum, and then coo encouraging words to them to make them know everything will be all right.


----------



## sanj (Jun 26, 2018)

Mind numbing to see people not preferring a precise battery status bar.


----------



## crashpc (Jun 26, 2018)

fullsrop ++ :-D
Apologists and trolls with no data in their hands resorting to putting down people.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 26, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



fullstop said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > You can not enable with software something which isn’t present in the configuration. That would be like adding GPS to a camera by flashing its FPGA.
> ...



---

"....You can not enable with software something which isn’t present in the configuration. That would be like adding GPS to a camera by flashing its FPGA. ..."


NOT QUITE TRUE.....Since the ARM A4 and M4 cores on many DIGICS DO HAVE 10-bit or 14-bit ADC (analog to digital convertors) and IO pins for same, AND since SOME of the chips can be as fast as 2.0 GHz, it means they COULD sample the 1.575.42 MHz, 1227.60 MHz and 1.023 MHz at a reduced accuracy. If the FPGA circuit is fast enough YES you could attach a proper cable/antenna construct to the analog IO pins and get a GPS signal with just a flash bios update!

Of course, you really do need twice the signal rate (Nyquist sampling) to get a true representation of the GPS signal without error....BUT....with some fancy math...IT CAN BE DONE on a Canon 1.5 GHz+ DIGIC 6/7/8 and/or 1.5 GHz FPGA system!

....AND..... that also means you could sample electrical flow to get a decent percentage-base "Amount of Battery Power Remaining" value just by adding some extra math to the power usage parameters within the Canon camera BIOS software.
Shoudn't cost more than a few tens of clock cycles every second!

Anyways, with microcode software ANYTHING can be added to a Canon camera...as pointed out by our buyer who LIKED what they saw with our codec! It does mean though that extensive testing MUST be done because microcode ABSOLUTELY CAN BRICK a Canon Camera as I found out more than a few expensive times!
See what happens boss-swearing-wise when you brick one of his $6000 camera bodies! (p.s. you can force-upload a new bios into many bricked Canon's but you have to open up the camera on a test bench!)


----------



## fullstop (Jun 26, 2018)

could
* KS436 possibly be "SL-3"? SL-2/EOS 200D successor? Canon knows there is demand for downsized camera bodies, both as primary or secondary/backup gear
* KS437 possibly 7D iii - even if ahead of "expected" update cycle, Canon should do something to get ahead of Nikon D500? )
* MILC not FF, but "only" M5 II, same new 28MP crop sensor, EF-M mount, chunkier grip + body, LP-E6N battery, 4k 30p, less cropped than in M50 ?

btw. Thom Hogan has now also realized there is significant demand (not only me) for "small, yet fully functional" gear, even if it does not deliver "ultimate IQ" but only "good enough" 
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/downsizers.html


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jun 26, 2018)

Wow. 5 pages of whinging about battery indicators the NOBODY CARES ABOUT instead of discussing the actual topic. Some people have no life. 
On topic though. Damn I am keen to see what these cameras are. Currently use a 7d2 and if I get a stop or more improvement in high iso IQ in a 7d3 I will be more than happy to see it come early. And I am keen to see what canon produces in its FF mirrorless. Probably not in the markey yet but you never know. I kind of hope it is not another rebel though. Too many cameras at the bottom end I reckon


----------



## mb66energy (Jun 26, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



scyrene said:


> [...]
> 
> Your replies are interesting and informative, but they fall on deaf ears. You're talking to someone who has no interest whatsoever in how things work, and the moment something is explained, they resort to insults and obfuscation.



In this case I wanted to leave some arguments in written form for others as some counterbalance to arguments and statements of others. This is the great thing about well documented conversations in forums ...
In a direct bilateral conversation I left the field much earlier 

So thank you for your positive remark! That's what keeps me posting my 2 ct at canonrumors!


----------



## Kit. (Jun 26, 2018)

fullstop said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > This thread illustrates that some people will argue over the most ridiculous stuff. It’s a battery level indicator. Who cares?
> ...


So, this "Canapoligist" is only a meaningless label for people that don't agree with you?


----------



## littleB (Jun 26, 2018)

Aussie shooter said:


> Wow. 5 pages of whinging about battery indicators the NOBODY CARES ABOUT instead of discussing the actual topic. Some people have no life.



This battery indicator was the last thing stopping some talented and very insistently creative person from creating photographic masterpieces. Even the lack of the 'materpiece' button does not bother some guys as much as digital battery gauge.
And it does not matter that this is discussion about NEW CAMERAS.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 26, 2018)

Kit. said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



no. "Can-apologist" is my shorthand term for a small number of forum colleagues here [less than a dozen] who immediately launch a full-blown "apology" for any shortcoming or even the most blatant lack of functionality in Canon products or Canon business practices and corporate behavior, e.g. marketing differentiation including "nerfing" - as soon as I "dare to" mention them, even only in passing. 

To me it appears to be a condition caused by a combination of Pavlovs reflex ... "dog starts salivating when it hears the bell, even when there is no food around" ... and cognitive dissonance ... "buyers remorse" ... Canon is "da best, since I bought it!".  ;D

But I have been asked to kindly refrain from using the term, since it may be perceived as "slightly derogatory" and I will honor the request. 8)


----------



## fullstop (Jun 26, 2018)

littleB said:


> ... digital battery gauge.
> And it does not matter that this is discussion about NEW CAMERAS.



NEW CAMERAS for which information at the moment is very limited ... to differences in battery packs and ... TADAA ! ... "4-stage vs. 6 stage" battery charge indicators. ;D

Bluetooth and WiFi seem to be in all of them. Other than that nothing is known atm. 

And btw: to me the battery indicator is about as important as the fuel gauge in a car. It would work perfectly fine without one ... but only until things come to an abrupt stop. ;D ;D ;D


----------



## Talys (Jun 26, 2018)

Kit. said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



Essentially, everyone who doesn't believe in his vision to Make cAnon Great Again. 

It begins with deporting all of the mirrors that are invading cameras and sending them back to the crime and drug-ridden third world countries and shitholes where they belong. Rounding up all the big mirrorslappers out there with a zero tolerance policy and putting them into safety cages for their own protection. And, evidently, making sure the world is one where everyone knows exactly how much power they have!

: :-X (all in jest, no offence intended)


----------



## fullstop (Jun 26, 2018)

Lol, Talys! You got the gist with your jest. ;D


"Yes, Canon can"
"Read my lips: no more mirrorslapping" 
"I did not have sexual relations with that Canon camera" 
"We the people tell Canon what to do, it doesn’t tell us.”

... ooops, that were other POTUSes. 
;D


----------



## jolyonralph (Jun 26, 2018)

Talys said:


> Essentially, everyone who doesn't believe in his vision to Make cAnon Great Again.



'We're going to put a full % battery meter in the camera and we're going to make Sony pay for it!'


----------



## fullstop (Jun 26, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> 'We're going to put a full % battery meter in the camera and we're going to make Sony pay for it!'




;D ;D ;D Oh yes!


----------



## Kit. (Jun 26, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Kit. said:
> 
> 
> > fullstop said:
> ...


That doesn't explain your belief that "only Canapologists" wouldn't care about replacing a multi-segment battery charge indicator with something more verbose.


----------



## Maximilian (Jun 26, 2018)

Now let's try to get back on topic ("_New Canon Camera Bodies_"):

So


fullstop said:


> could
> * KS436 possibly be "SL-3"? SL-2/EOS 200D successor? Canon knows there is demand for downsized camera bodies, both as primary or secondary/backup gear


I would love to see an SL-2/EOS 200D successor, especially if it was a "mirrorslapper" (I still prefer OVF over EVF), because I was very disappointed with the AF implementation on this. Otherwise I would have been in at once.
BUT
The Original life cycle of the SL1/100D was more than 4 years and even if Canon would switch to a more typical life cycle for such a consumer body there would be still about one year left as it was released just one year ago. 
==> NO, unlikely 
I suppose a T7i/800D or 80D successor as they are overdue compared to their typical life cycle



> * KS437 possibly 7D iii - even if ahead of "expected" update cycle, Canon should do something to get ahead of Nikon D500? )


Could be a 7D3 but I'd more expect a 5Ds successor.



> * MILC not FF, but "only" M5 II, same new 28MP crop sensor, EF-M mount, chunkier grip + body, LP-E6N battery, 4k 30p, less cropped than in M50 ?


Don't know what to expect here. No clue. 
I wouldn't expect a M5 II with a LP-E6N. 



> btw. Thom Hogan has now also realized there is significant demand (not only me) for "small, yet fully functional" gear, even if it does not deliver "ultimate IQ" but only "good enough"
> http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/downsizers.html


And yet again here we (all consumers) might have different understanding of "_fully functional_" in terms of internal functions and mechanical ergonomics, e.g. when used with f/2.8 or f/4 zooms. 
The demand for small, decent primes with compromises in max. aperture is not as big one might expect.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 26, 2018)

Kit. said:


> That doesn't explain your belief that "only Canapologists" wouldn't care about replacing a multi-segment battery charge indicator with something more verbose.



that was the impression i got during the discussion. Same as the "18% less shot reach for no real reason discussion due to whimpy Battery in EOS M50" discussion. 

My expectation would have been, that *everybody* would find more shot reach and a clear, more precise battery gauge preferable and would agree that Canon really should [have] deliver[ed] in these 2 areas. 

But ... apparently not.


----------



## Deleted member 378664 (Jun 26, 2018)

Don't want to apologize Canon for the battery gauge implementation on some of their bodies.

but I could imagine the reason behind this could be similar to the reasons why car manufactureres are builduing engine temperature gauges showing a relatively constant 100 degree Celsius of coolant temperature once this temperature is reached. They did this because there were too many complaints about the coolant temperature showing fluctuating temperatures between 90 and 130 degree.
True values do puzzle People too much.

Back on Topic:
As an owner of a M5 MI I would be very interested in a M5 MarkII with the rumored specs especially if the bigger battery turns out to be true.

regards
Frank


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 26, 2018)

Battery indicators: When the got dang thing flashes, change out the got dang battery. 10% or 5%, who gives a crap? Comparing it to the fuel gauge on a car? Stupid. Same thing: when it gets low... fill the got dang thing up! Skipping the gas station because you think you can get another 20 miles? Idiot.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 26, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Battery indicators: When the got dang thing flashes, change out the got dang battery.



Yes, many dang cars also still come with totally inadequate dang fuel gauges - showing "full/nearly full" until the tank in reality is quite low already - then dropping rapidly towards zero. oh dang! 

Same goes for most of the dang "4/6 stage battery indicators": when the dang last bar starts flashing on my Canon EOS M for example, there really is hardly any juice left. Often i find it "too late" then. So I am forced to change battery at the latest when the dang gauge drops to one bar. If situation requires "full battle readiness" i even swap batteries as soon as the dang gauge drops the first bar [goes from 3 to 2]. So yes, we can "work around any shortcomings in our tools". But why should we have to? 

How much better and nicer would it be if 2018 products were in all aspects *at least* "as good as is easily possible in 2018"? Or even better! 

What i really criticize is Canon's failure/unwillingness to do this and their quite evident withholding of some simple functionalities [when hardware, camera, batteries, firmware are fully capable already as in 5D3 for example] . I want my tool makers to make 2018 tools at least "as good as is easily possible" in 2018. In every single aspect, regard and dimension. 

And really: 4- or 6-stage battery gauges may have been "what's easily possible" in the 1970s. But not in new 2018 cameras. : 

ah yes: and to not confuse those users, who Canon might consider to be easily confused by a %-reading  : and for all those who permanently or temporarily prefer to have a cleaner, less cluttered image in VF or on LCD - no problem, make it "off" by default, but user switchable in menu [then permanent until changed again]. A few lines of code. Nothing more.


----------



## BillB (Jun 26, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Kit. said:
> 
> 
> > That doesn't explain your belief that "only Canapologists" wouldn't care about replacing a multi-segment battery charge indicator with something more verbose.
> ...



You are right that there aren't that many people who have been led to comment on your crusade to convince Canon to increase battery power on its lower level cameras and provide more information on how much power remains. your speculation about why Canon hasn't done what you want and how much it would cost them to do so is less persuasive to some of us than it is to you, and a few of us have chosen to post our opinions. Congratulations on once again finding a way to breath new life into a thread that seemed to be coming to its natural end.


----------



## scyrene (Jun 26, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



mb66energy said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > [...]
> ...



You're right, it can be helpful for others even if the person you were addressing ignores it. Thanks for persevering


----------



## unfocused (Jun 26, 2018)

Still one of the all-time most ridiculous discussions I have encountered on Canon Rumors, and that says a lot since there is plenty of competition in that category. How is a percentage vs. bars going to change any normal person’s behavior?

You are shooting pictures, you see the bar drops to one or the readout drops to 25%, normal person exhibits exactly the same behavior- change battery. 

Abnormal person looks at the bars and obsesses over whether they have 25% left or whether it’s 19%. Person who does that needs mental help not a new camera.


----------



## Kit. (Jun 26, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Kit. said:
> 
> 
> > That doesn't explain your belief that "only Canapologists" wouldn't care about replacing a multi-segment battery charge indicator with something more verbose.
> ...


How about cross-checking your impressions from your personal social communications with the actual facts you can see in the world without an urge to "win" some social communications game?

For example, there are lots of multi-segment battery charge indicators across the whole range of rechargeable batteries, from USB power banks to interchangeable batteries for hardware tools. And no one seems to care. Are all the users of such batteries "Canapologists"?



fullstop said:


> Same as the "18% less shot reach for no real reason discussion due to whimpy Battery in EOS M50" discussion.
> 
> My expectation would have been, that *everybody* would find more shot reach


First, your expectation "would have been" that *everybody* would care about some stuff related to EOS M50. 

I don't care about M50. Does that make me a "Canapologist"?
I also don't care about A7III. Does that make me a "Sonapologist"?

What I care about is the things that affect me. The _precision_ of a battery charge indicator in the camera currently doesn't affect me at all. What affects me is the _accuracy_ of one. If an indicator shows half charge at home but starts blinking red immediately after I pop a built-in flash outside in the winter (or, worse, shows half charge on the diving boat on the sunny summer day but starts blinking when I am 30m deep under water), it's an accuracy problem, not a precision problem. It won't help if I would see that as "40%" immediately dropping to "4%" instead.



fullstop said:


> and a clear, more precise battery gauge preferable


A gauge is only "clean" when its precision matches its accuracy. When a gauge is unreasonably over-precise, it's not "clean", but "cluttered".

Some people, mostly amateurs, like such _ornamentality_ of the gauge. Most professionals don't.



fullstop said:


> Yes, many dang cars also still come with totally inadequate dang fuel gauges - showing "full/nearly full" until the tank in reality is quite low already


And how would changing that "mostly full" to its more "precise" equivalent of "87%" help in that case.



fullstop said:


> ah yes: and to not confuse those users, who Canon might consider to be easily confused by a %-reading  : and for all those who permanently or temporarily prefer to have a cleaner, less cluttered image in VF or on LCD - no problem, make it "off" by default, but user switchable in menu [then permanent until changed again]. A few lines of code. Nothing more.


Canon would still need to allocate indicator space for it. Space that could be used in a better way.


----------



## -1 (Jun 26, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Battery indicators: When the got dang thing flashes, change out the got dang battery. 10% or 5%, who gives a crap? Comparing it to the fuel gauge on a car? Stupid. Same thing: when it gets low... fill the got dang thing up! Skipping the gas station because you think you can get another 20 miles? Idiot.



You're in denial! You need a battery level indicator bar or numbers but got the placement wrong. It should be place on the battery pack itself. Duracell has the tech for you...







http://www.ubergizmo.com/2009/11/new-duracell-battery-with-power-meter/


----------



## Mikehit (Jun 26, 2018)

fullstop said:


> [ Same as the "18% less shot reach for no real reason discussion due to whimpy Battery in EOS M50" discussion.



So now can get more reach buy buying a higher capacity battery instead of a longer lens.
Who'd a thunk it?


----------



## sanj (Jun 26, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Battery indicators: When the got dang thing flashes, change out the got dang battery. 10% or 5%, who gives a crap? Comparing it to the fuel gauge on a car? Stupid. Same thing: when it gets low... fill the got dang thing up! Skipping the gas station because you think you can get another 20 miles? Idiot.



Hahahahah. NO. There are many a times when we run low on battery and while other battery is being charged and we need to know how far we can push it. Happens often while shooting video.


----------



## Macoose (Jun 26, 2018)

Fullstop,

Why don't you just register the Battery Info from the Menu into the "My Menu" page?
I did that and it takes about 5 seconds to push the Menu button, select My Menu (the Star on the right) and select the Battery Info. 
Easy.
You won't have to "dive into the menu" when you want to see the percentage.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 26, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Kit. said:
> 
> 
> > fullstop said:
> ...



What’s really interesting to me is: it seems like you, who aren’t really a current canon camera customer, seem to care far more about what canon does or does not do, than current canon customers.

I, for one example, am a current canon camera customer. I bought an interchangeable lens for the EF system two days ago. I don’t care what canon does. If the company cratered with the much-predicted doom, I’d care in so far as I’d be excited at the prospect of buying stuff in a fire sale. If they make products and offer a good value proposition I’ll buy them. If they don’t, I won’t. I know they aren’t the only game in town, and I’ve tried some of the other games (Sony - A7Rii owned and A7Riii rented; Nikon D7000 owned).

There is no buyers remorse or sycophantic loyalty; there is 1) dispassionate technical discussion, and 2) tit-for-tat response to antagonistic language.



fullstop said:


> Kit. said:
> 
> 
> > That doesn't explain your belief that "only Canapologists" wouldn't care about replacing a multi-segment battery charge indicator with something more verbose.
> ...



Ah, see here is the problem. All else being equal, everyone would like a bigger battery. No one doesn’t want a % battery display (at worst people don’t care). Like in the M50 thread, you are confusing dispute of your accusation that what you present as shortcomings are due to marketing’s interference with engineering for a tacit approval of those said shortcomings. 

“Canon marketing overrode the design engineers to nerf the M50 battery selection.” [lightly paraphrased]

“Probably not, more likely marketing drove the target MSRP and margin, and the trade studies yielded the older battery, which they probably produce more cheaply, as satisfying the cost side of the targets.”

“OMG HOW COULD YOU NOT WANT A BIGGER BATTERY? YOU MUST WORK FOR CANON MARKETING OR OTHERWISE BE PAID BY CANON!” [lightly paraphrased]

It’s similar here:
“You can do something with firmware.”
“[bunch of technical talk].”
“OMG HOW COULD YOU NOT WANT THAT FIRMWARE FUNCTION? YOU MUST BE A BLIND CANOPOLOGIST!” [lightly paraphrased]


----------



## jayphotoworks (Jun 26, 2018)

sanj said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Battery indicators: When the got dang thing flashes, change out the got dang battery. 10% or 5%, who gives a crap? Comparing it to the fuel gauge on a car? Stupid. Same thing: when it gets low... fill the got dang thing up! Skipping the gas station because you think you can get another 20 miles? Idiot.
> ...



Canon's display for remaining recording capacity in video mode is also not what you would expect. Last time I shot Canon, the remaining capacity for video shown in LV shows 29:59 regardless of the card size, and not the actual time remaining on the card. This time only starts to drop once the remaining capacity on the card cannot fit a full 29:59 segment.

On most other cameras, this is straightforward: It shows you the actual remaining capacity based on the chosen format. If a memory card starts empty at 90mins for example, and I have 45mins remaining, my 64GB card is about ~32GB full. If I'm doing a same day edit, for example, I may choose to do a tactical reload early so my editor can offload, backup and edit while I shoot with a new blank card, especially if I know I have a long segment ahead where I may need a full card and don't want my editor waiting around until that segment is done to work on previously shot footage.

I understand that most digicams have to stop at 29:59 to avoid the EU video camera tax but Canon's decision to only display this without the actual remaining time for the sake of keeping it simple isn't simple, it's just stupid (to quote another poster)..


----------



## jayphotoworks (Jun 26, 2018)

Macoose said:


> Fullstop,
> 
> Why don't you just register the Battery Info from the Menu into the "My Menu" page?
> I did that and it takes about 5 seconds to push the Menu button, select My Menu (the Star on the right) and select the Battery Info.
> ...



It isn't so simple as I posted previously. If the camera is on a gimbal or locked off on a crane, you can't easily dive into the menus.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 26, 2018)

@Macoose: thx for your constructive hint. "Battery Info" is in MyMenu on my 5D3 since day 1 / initial setup. But it is a workaround. Still a menu action. I would like to see "percent remaining charge" on rear LCD - unless I specifically switch it off or suppress all "info" on LCD [via Info button]. 

EOS M does have a "MyMenu" but no "battery info" to display "percent charge remaining". Maybe as per 3kramd5's explanations either camera-hardware related and/or a "feature" of the whimpy old LP-E12 battery or otherwise "powershot firmware nerfing". 

@3kramd5
CURRENTLY around 10k in Canon gear does make me a CURRENT Canon customer. 
Quite possibly I am even in the top decile amongst all Canon non-pro stills imaging customers. 8) Definitely well above median ... 1.0 Rebel-class body plus 1.1 kit-zoom lenses. 

SO I conclude that i am fully entitled to a good number of Canon-critical postings. While some may appear a bit exaggerated, none is "totally unjustified". Even when not all other Canon customer share all of my opinions.  ;D


----------



## Kit. (Jun 26, 2018)

sanj said:


> There are many a times when we run low on battery and while other battery is being charged and we need to know how far we can push it. Happens often while shooting video.


And who would you blame if the battery ends sooner than you expected?


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 26, 2018)

fullstop said:


> EOS M does have a "MyMenu" but no "battery info" to display "percent charge remaining". Maybe as per 3kramd5's explanations either camera-hardware related



And to be clear, I’m not saying conclusively why there is no battery info, just that batteries have to support it (like Sony’s iNFOlithium series, and many but likely not all canon batteries). If they don’t, it’s the same guesswork as the 4-6 block schema. They could make it display a percentage, but that percentage would be unreliable (see the previous multiple discussion since of accuracy versus precision). That’s why from my early replies I specifically referred to “meaningful” percentage display.



fullstop said:


> @3kramd5
> CURRENTLY around 10k in Canon gear does make me a CURRENT Canon customer.



I currently have a Jeep I bought 7 years ago. I am not a current Chrysler customer.

When was the last time you exchanged money for camera camera/related goods from canon? I apologize if I’m wrong, but from other posts it seems to have been several years ago. 



fullstop said:


> SO I conclude that i am fully entitled to a good number of Canon-critical postings.



I don’t think anyone would disagree with that. It’s the baseless accusations (either of the shadow hand of marketing sneaking over to the PLM system and swapping out components, or of forum members being on canon’s payroll when they don’t agree with your conclusions) which put people off.


----------



## nchoh (Jun 26, 2018)

The battery life indicator argument lies on one false premise - a digital readout of the percentage of battery life is better than the bars. It is not.

A digital display provides more information than an analog display but an analog display is faster to read! This has been proven with analog versus digital watches. The battery bars is a digital implementation of an analog.

In the case of Canon DSLR where the battery life is seldom a problem, why burden the shooter with unnecessary information. In the case of Sony where the batteries were inadequate, the digital readout was necessary.


----------



## sanj (Jun 26, 2018)

Kit. said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > There are many a times when we run low on battery and while other battery is being charged and we need to know how far we can push it. Happens often while shooting video.
> ...



The indicator meter. Or wait. The Russians?


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 26, 2018)

nchoh said:


> The battery life indicator argument lies on one false premise - a digital readout of the percentage of battery life is better than the bars. It is not.
> 
> A digital display provides more information than an analog display but an analog display is faster to read! This has been proven with analog versus digital watches. The battery bars is a digital implementation of an analog.
> 
> In the case of Canon DSLR where the battery life is seldom a problem, why burden the shooter with unnecessary information. In the case of Sony where the batteries were inadequate, the digital readout was necessary.



I don’t think the rate at which one reads battery information is a reasonable basis to determine which display is better. If the 1/3 second extra it takes me makes a difference, then the battery is for all intents and purposes dead.

Watches are the same story. I can look at the hour hand alone and have a good estimate for what time it is - probably within about a 15 minute window on an average sized watch face. If I am using it to roughly gauge when I should start making dinner, that’s fine. If I’m using it to determine how quickly someone runs a lap, a digital stopwatch with sub-second resolution might be better.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 26, 2018)

sanj said:


> Mind numbing to see people not preferring a precise battery status bar.



What’s mind-numbing is the thinking that because _you_ want a % charge readout or a ‘precise’ batttery bar, everyone should have that same desire. I don’t think anyone is saying those would be undesirable, but it’s like wanting more DR – even if no one would say no to it, for many there’s just no meaningful benefit. 

I always have a charged spare battery. If the indicator drops to less than ‘full’ (e.g., one bar down, meaning ~50% charge left), I swap in the charged battery and recharge the one from the camera. Whether the information is graphical or numerical doesn’t matter, and won’t change my behavior.

Moreover, as was pointed out above, the higher end bodies/batteries do permit a % charge readout. If that % can be displayed via menu commands, it can also be displayed on a shooting display – in the VF, on a top LCD, or on the main LCD during shooting operations (although the first two may require a hardware change), and it could be displayed in addition to or instead of the graphical ‘bar’ display. So, why hasn’t Canon implemented that? I sincerely doubt it’s because they can’t spare the programming resources to do so. It’s also highly unlikely they haven’t thought of it...after all, probably every engineer/designer/marketer/etc. has a smartphone with the capability to display a numerical % charge for the battery. If it’s not inability or ignorance, it must be an intentional decision. It’s also highly unlikely that that it’s because ‘marketing’ has decided to ‘nerf’ the cameras...far more likely, it is a design/UI decision to keep the interface uncluttered, providing a quick but unobtrusive way for users to access the information at a level of detail that’s relevant and sufficient. 




sanj said:


> Hahahahah. NO. There are many a times when we run low on battery and while other battery is being charged and we need to know how far we can push it. Happens often while shooting video.



Knowing how far you can push it depends not on the precision of the charge measurement, but on it’s accuracy. If you have a % charge indicator, and it shows 10% remaining with an accuracy of ±10%, your battery could die at any time. Here’s a tip: if you often find yourself running low on one battery while the other battery is being charged, _you need a third battery_. Similarly, if you can exhaust a battery in less time than it takes to charge a battery, add a second charger. 

Some people prefer to implement simple, logical, feasible solutions to problems. Other people prefer to blame the manufacturer and continue to suffer. If being in the latter group works for you, that’s your choice.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 26, 2018)

nchoh said:


> The battery life indicator argument lies on one false premise - a digital readout of the percentage of battery life is better than the bars. It is not.
> 
> A digital display provides more information than an analog display but an analog display is faster to read! This has been proven with analog versus digital watches. The battery bars is a digital implementation of an analog.
> 
> In the case of Canon DSLR where the battery life is seldom a problem, why burden the shooter with unnecessary information. In the case of Sony where the batteries were inadequate, the digital readout was necessary.



LOL.  

In 2018 numerical and graphical/"analog" presentation of information can even be combined on an OLED display. Oh wow! In fighter jet HUDs and in cars' "digital dashboards"! And even in cameras from innovative makers who managed to develop the very, very advanced, rocket-science software code.


----------



## Ian_of_glos (Jun 26, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Mind numbing to see people not preferring a precise battery status bar.
> ...



That is pretty much what I do. When I have shot around 1,000 frames I wait for a suitable opportunity to switch to a fully charged battery. It quite often reaches 1,200 frames before I am able to do so but even then the battery indicator is still usually at 2 blobs. I don't really care whether that means it's 20% charged or 40% or 50% - I know from experience that if I allow it to drop to 1 blob then it is about to expire and it usually chooses the worst possible moment to power the camera down, so I never wait that long.


----------



## Kit. (Jun 26, 2018)

sanj said:


> Kit. said:
> 
> 
> > sanj said:
> ...


So, not a battery and definitely not yourself?

Well, that's a good reason for a manufacturer to _not_ provide such misleadingly "precise" indicator to you.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 26, 2018)

Speaking of battery gauge accuracy. Just made a truly shocking discovery! Maybe there is no "100% charged state" at all! At least not in Fujifilm cameras, according to their official info on the subject [XT-2 manual http://fujifilm-dsc.com/en/manual/x-t2_v21/first_step/battery_level/index.html.

*FULL BARS = "Battery partially discharged"*. ;D 






Maybe their legal department *nerfed* the manual! ;D ;D ;D


----------



## fullstop (Jun 26, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Well, that's a good reason for a manufacturer to _not_ provide such misleadingly "precise" indicator to you.



well, I'd like to hear what a(ny) pilot would say, if a brand new 2018 aircraft came equipped with a "remaining-fuel-in-tanks-indicator" with "4 stages" [small Canon plane] or a more luxurious "6-stage" version [only in Canon top level airliners]. ;D

Would you want to board that plane if the guy goes ... "no problem, I'll wing it [pun intended]. We fill'er up pretty good in LAX and so far we have always made it to JFK. And if the indicator really drops to 1 blob, I'll simply land in between for a quick re-fuel stop. Don't you worry, boy!" 

But ofc your mileage may vary (pun intended). ;D


----------



## Cthulhu (Jun 26, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Speaking of battery gauge accuracy. Just made a truly shocking discovery! Maybe there is no "100% charged state" at all! At least not in Fujifilm cameras, according to their official info on the subject [XT-2 manual http://fujifilm-dsc.com/en/manual/x-t2_v21/first_step/battery_level/index.html.
> 
> *FULL BARS = "Battery partially discharged"*. ;D
> 
> ...



That's because there's no such thing as a fully charged battery, they all begin discharge the moment you take it out of the charger - but you know that seeing as you're an electrical engineer, no?


----------



## nchoh (Jun 26, 2018)

fullstop said:


> nchoh said:
> 
> 
> > The battery life indicator argument lies on one false premise - a digital readout of the percentage of battery life is better than the bars. It is not.
> ...



A "LOL!" but does not refute my arguments.

You win.


----------



## Cthulhu (Jun 26, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Mind numbing to see people not preferring a precise battery status bar.
> ...



Again you with your silly arguments that if Canon does not do something, it must be because of some highly thought out process...that is specially ridiculous when referring to a company with a loooong history of not giving customers basic simple functions that it's competitors offer all the time. Give yourself a break, it must be exhausting to always have to defend silly stuff. I see my 1dx mk2 as very much a precision instrument, why argue against it being more precise? Canon is extremely slow to improve and hardly listens to feedback from it's customers - save for industry wide outrage like with the 5dmk 4 clog, which is more listening to retailers than it's own customers.

Here's the one scenario where a % indicator would be very useful to me: action shots. Be it sports or wildlife, when you can't control the action, knowing whether you have 10% or 1% can mean the difference btw getting that special moment or missing it because you were swapping batteries that could have gotten you through. There are obvious practical arguments for a percentage indicator, none for it's absence.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 26, 2018)

Cthulhu said:


> That's because there's no such thing as a fully charged battery, they all begin discharge the moment you take it out of the charger - but you know that seeing as you're an electrical engineer, no?



I knew that was coming!  

Couldn't they label it "almost FULL"? Should be technically and legally OK? ;D


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 26, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Cthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > That's because there's no such thing as a fully charged battery, they all begin discharge the moment you take it out of the charger - but you know that seeing as you're an electrical engineer, no?
> ...



How is that different from “partially discharged”?


----------



## Talys (Jun 26, 2018)

Here you go... battery meter at its finest.


----------



## Kit. (Jun 26, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Kit. said:
> 
> 
> > Well, that's a good reason for a manufacturer to _not_ provide such misleadingly "precise" indicator to you.
> ...


...which is how it actually works with airliners.

Not the precision of the indicators (the indicators are _accurate_ up to 3% of fuel tank capacity, which is not that hard for a fuel tank - I don't think you are ready to pay the cost of _batteries_ that can guarantee such accuracy of their remaining charge) - these indicators are typically used to control how much fuel is filled up at the ground. But you don't start with not enough fuel to reach the destination airport plus the reserve destination airport, and you only need to look at the indicators to see if you have a fuel leak - or if you know that you have a technical problem that can lead to higher fuel consumption than expected (but you still don't want to land on the nearest suitable airstrip).


----------



## snappy604 (Jun 26, 2018)

what an incredible waste of time and effort on battery indicators when the subject was really about possible new bodies.

Not a canon apologist, I get annoyed some stuff seems nerfed on purpose for market segmentation... but you're getting too worked up and off topic on a battery indicator. 

To most people it's a useful indicator if we should swap out batteries soon or not. Do I care if it's at 6% vs 5% vs 10%? nope.. i've swapped out before then. I can't recall ever worrying about this as I always have spares.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 26, 2018)

Cthulhu said:


> Again you with your silly arguments that if Canon does not do something, it must be because of some highly thought out process...that is specially ridiculous when referring to a company with a loooong history of not giving customers basic simple functions that it's competitors offer all the time. Give yourself a break, it must be exhausting to always have to defend silly stuff. I see my 1dx mk2 as very much a precision instrument, why argue against it being more precise? Canon is extremely slow to improve and hardly listens to feedback from it's customers - save for industry wide outrage like with the 5dmk 4 clog, which is more listening to retailers than it's own customers.
> 
> Here's the one scenario where a % indicator would be very useful to me: action shots. Be it sports or wildlife, when you can't control the action, knowing whether you have 10% or 1% can mean the difference btw getting that special moment or missing it because you were swapping batteries that could have gotten you through. There are obvious practical arguments for a percentage indicator, none for it's absence.



It must be exhausting to think that your personal needs and wants represent those of the majority of Canon’s customers. Give yourself a break and try to come to grips with the fact that Canon knows more about the wants/needs of the overall market than you or I.

What if in your scenario your indicator read 10%, but with a ±10% accuracy you really had only one shot left on the battery. But you thought you had 10%, so you didn’t swap batteries...and you missed that special moment. Maybe if you had ‘one bar’ you’d have already changed your battery, and that special moment would be hanging on your wall as a large print or earning you serious royalties. As has been pointed out by others, precision ≠ accuracy.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 26, 2018)

snappy604 said:


> To most people it's a useful indicator if we should swap out batteries soon or not. Do I care if it's at 6% vs 5% vs 10%? nope.. i've swapped out before then. I can't recall ever worrying about this as I always have spares.



+1

Some people like to burn the last fumes of gasoline in their tank then coast into the gas station for a fill up. I suppose some people think that’s brave or ‘gutsy’, personally I think it’s just foolish.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 26, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> snappy604 said:
> 
> 
> > To most people it's a useful indicator if we should swap out batteries soon or not. Do I care if it's at 6% vs 5% vs 10%? nope.. i've swapped out before then. I can't recall ever worrying about this as I always have spares.
> ...



have to admit guilty. Done that. Been there. Went out of Las Vegas one fine sunny day. rental car, "it'll go anywhere'. Tank half full. Lots and lots of gas stations. "Maybe the next one is even lower price, said the nice young woman next to me". OK, keep going. Southerly direction, into the Mojave desert. 110° in the shade, but there was no shade. Decided to turn AC off to save fuel. Gauge kept falling. Somehow made it all the way to Hwy 10. Surfed in the slipstream of some giant tractor trailers. Made it to a gas station. On the vr last molecules of gasoline fumes. Literally. The pretty girl married me. True story. LOL


----------



## nchoh (Jun 26, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Kit. said:
> 
> 
> > Well, that's a good reason for a manufacturer to _not_ provide such misleadingly "precise" indicator to you.
> ...



And I would like to see a photographer look at his camera and say "Oh crap, I only have 12% battery left, I better not shoot any more, cause I might fall out of the sky and die!"

Any what's with Canon, I mean the Camera screen is so huge that we could fit a few hundred more gauges on it, why are they being so stingy?


----------



## Mikehit (Jun 26, 2018)

fullstop said:


> The pretty girl married me. True story. LOL



Does she come with a 'nearly full' meter when taking her out for a meal?

Or a 'need hugs' meter when you have been spending time on photo forums(s) and not paying her enough attention? I presume that comes in the form of raised eyebrows....


----------



## fullstop (Jun 26, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > The pretty girl married me. True story. LOL
> ...



oh well, sometimes she definitely is 100% pissed off with me.


----------



## zim (Jun 26, 2018)

Talys said:


> Here you go... battery meter at its finest.



;D ;D ;D


----------



## Talys (Jun 27, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > fullstop said:
> ...



The accuracy of the gauge is critical, though, because it is an exponential, not linear, curve. The first 40% is consumed pretty slowly, but the last 60% you can zoom right through. 

Hey, kind of like the fuel gauge on my 90s Corvette. That thing used to go from one third to empty like a falcon in a dive.


----------



## BillB (Jun 27, 2018)

Talys said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...



Cross section of the tank can have that effect if the gas gauge is a simple depth gauge. You have to pay attention if you are in a truck with a cylindrical tank.


----------



## Chaitanya (Jun 27, 2018)

Cthulhu said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking of battery gauge accuracy. Just made a truly shocking discovery! Maybe there is no "100% charged state" at all! At least not in Fujifilm cameras, according to their official info on the subject [XT-2 manual http://fujifilm-dsc.com/en/manual/x-t2_v21/first_step/battery_level/index.html.
> ...


Time taken to reach each end of capacity is infinite as both are exponential functions so yes there are no such things are fully charged/discharged capacitors/cells.


----------



## sanj (Jun 27, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Mind numbing to see people not preferring a precise battery status bar.
> ...



I never mentioned % indicator. You ASSumed that. I just mentioned precise battery read out. And if people like you are ok with inaccurate meters, good for you. I would find it beneficial to have a proper meter.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2018)

sanj said:


> I never mentioned % indicator. You ASSumed that. I just mentioned precise battery read out. And if people like you are ok with inaccurate meters, good for you. I would find it beneficial to have a proper meter.



I never mentioned being ok with an innacurate meter. You ASSumed that. What I said was a more precise battery indicatior would not change my behavior wrt changing out batteries. 

The current meter display is perfectly proper. It displays an approximate charge level and warns of impending need to change the battery. You may not like it, and may want something different, but that's your problem.


----------



## sanj (Jun 27, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > I never mentioned % indicator. You ASSumed that. I just mentioned precise battery read out. And if people like you are ok with inaccurate meters, good for you. I would find it beneficial to have a proper meter.
> ...



"because you want a % charge readout or a ‘precise’ batttery bar, everyone should have that same desire. I don’t think anyone is saying those would be undesirable, but it’s like wanting more DR – even if no one would say no to it, for many there’s just no meaningful benefit. " lol


----------



## crashpc (Jun 27, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > I never mentioned % indicator. You ASSumed that. I just mentioned precise battery read out. And if people like you are ok with inaccurate meters, good for you. I would find it beneficial to have a proper meter.
> ...



I wonder if that was what Canon rep would answer to us. Once customers are unhappy, it should be solved. Mostly happened with the DR thingie, and will happen with other things. We do not care that you are happy with the crappy battery level indication either, neuro. It's your problem that you like it. :-D


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2018)

sanj said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > sanj said:
> ...



Did you have a point? Other than confirming that I accurately summed up what I had previously stated, I mean.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 27, 2018)

at the end of the day the question is: if a certain functionality is seen as useful by some/many users, should they be denied that functionality even when it does not harm those not interested in it? and especially when said feature can be implemented at very little cost and in a way that it is user-selectable? like a little puece of software that shows % charge remaining in addition to or alternatively to a "bar meter"? 

or: using a 2018 higher charge battery pack in all new 2018 cameras, when the battery is readily available, can (very likely) be sourced at very similar cost per unit and would not make camera shells noticable bulkier - if at all?

especially when Canon and all other makers put video recording ability into each and every of their cameras - even when many stills-only shooters never will use that feature - and even when it causes extra costs (and higher sales prices) to include the functionality as well as some potentially or actually negative "side-effects".


----------



## Mikehit (Jun 27, 2018)

crashpc said:


> Once customers are unhappy, it should be solved.



There is a man who has never been involved in technical development, and especially not the cost benefit analysis of implementing a problem. 
If by 'customers' you mean a majority to make it worthwhile, do you have any evidence that the accuracy of a battery meter is an issue for a majority of camera users?


----------



## Mikehit (Jun 27, 2018)

fullstop said:


> at the end of the day the question is: if a certain functionality is seen as useful by some/many users, should they be denied that functionality even when it does not harm those not interested in it?



If those unhappy users are an insignificant minority then is it unreasonable that they should accept that and put up with it?
I am not defending Canon, just challenging your (as usual) over simplistic view that is coloured by 'I want it so it must be important enough for Canon to do it'


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 27, 2018)

fullstop said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Battery indicators: When the got dang thing flashes, change out the got dang battery.
> ...



Is it really hard to understand that "when the dang last bar starts flashing" it is time to change the battery? Don't see what your complaint is. You want it to, instead, read that you have 1% left? Wow. : Really scraping the bottom of your whine barrel, aren't you? Do you also complain when the kids don't fold the loose end of the toilet paper into a neat 45 degree angle?

Rumor has it that Canon is adding functionality to the battery feature. If wifi is turned on the camera will send a text to your smartphone, in addition to an Amber Alert type of alarm (The kind that scares the crap out of you when it goes off like a nuclear attack is imminent.), to let fullstop know the battery needs changing out. : Oh yeah, the last indicator bar will flash too.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 27, 2018)

Well, Canon could do an OPEN survey on its web site/s asking their customers [registered to make sure only customers participate] what features they want or don't want in specific camera/s [could be the cameras they own and/or for new successor/"upgrade" models], possibly even asking for a ranked order. 

Then everybody interested could immediately see, how much demand there is for what functionality. And whether one's desires really are "totally one-off" or not. 

Until that happens I go from my experience that I am NEVER alone in ANYTHING I wish for. Whether it is a majority wish or not, is open. But again, adding features that don't harm anyone and don't really cause additional cost or other disadvantages - like a [switchable] battery meter with percent and bar indicator - should really not be a problem.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 27, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Is it really hard to understand that "when the dang last bar starts flashing" it is time to change the battery? Don't see what your complaint is. You want it to, instead, read that you have 1% left? Wow. :



no. You don't seem to understand. 

Me - and apparently many other smart camera users here - NEVER allow the battery indicator "in the field" to drop to only "1 dang flashing blob". 

I would be more interested to see, what the charge in % is, when the first blob drops - is it still at 79% or at only 55%? In the first case I know I am still good for a while. In second case I know I need to watch things closely, because - in my experience - it is not unlikely that charge drops rather fast from 55% towards zero. 

What is so difficult to understand? And if stills-only shooters have to put up with all the video stuff in each and every single camera, why should those of us who want it not get a battery meter reading like on this Sony? Where's your problem, really? 







btw: those "bar indicators" can really be misleading. here 3 out of 4 bars are visible so one might conclude remaining charge should be around 75% when it really only is 65% [provided this number is accurate]. No big deal, but what if indicator drops the next bar to 2 out of 4 and in reality there is only 29% charge left? Just as an example. So not only accuracy would be good to have, but also a better degree of precision than only a 4- or 6 stage indicator.


----------



## crashpc (Jun 27, 2018)

We already had this kind of discussion and attitude in sensor DR discussions. 
Turned out to be important one, even though people were called nasty, minor forum whiners.
Can be the case with the battery, or not, we don´t know. Only difference is, that there is possibly smaller number of those whiners. But also the cost of implementation is proportinally smaller. 

Hell I can live without a camera, that´s how important it is in my life. But if people are offering some deals, they need to try to satisfy customers. That is obvious chain of how things work. 

Calling someone anything for wanting usable feature is no reasonable point in the forum too.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2018)

crashpc said:


> Calling someone anything for wanting usable feature is no reasonable point in the forum too.



Agreed. Wanting a feature is reasonable. So is asking for that feature. Expounding on the benefits of that feature is also quite reasonable. 

What's _not_ reasonable is claiming that millions of others also want that feature, with no evidence to support that claim. What's _not_ reasonable is claiming Canon could easily implement that feature but chooses not to for nefarious reasons, with no evidence to support that claim. What's _not_ reasonable is claiming that the lack of that feature makes a camera sh!t. What's _not_ reasonable is calling someone anything for not seeing a personal need for that feature, or for providing technical information as to why implementing that feature may be technically challenging or may not be cost-effective. 

Hopefully you can understand and appreciate the difference.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 27, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Agreed. Wanting a feature is reasonable. So is asking for that feature. Expounding on the benefits of that feature is also quite reasonable.
> 
> What's _not_ reasonable is claiming that millions of others also want that feature, with no evidence to support that claim.



When e.g. overwhelming majority of users here agree, that e.g. "more DR is better" even if they put differning value as to how important it is to them - then it is not unreasonable to conclude that majority of camera owners and potential buyer would also be in favor. Since millions of cameras are sold each year, we are talking of millions. Even if the us forum dwellers here were totally unrepresentative for all camera buyers, and overall only 20% of those were of the same opinion, it would still be millions. 

Don't think it would be unreasonable to go with the same hypothesis for a lot of other "wishes" expressed in our forum here.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2018)

Are an overwhelming majority of users here asking for a % charge battery readout, or 17% more battery power in select camera models, or an EF-M 85mm f/2.4 lens?


----------



## unfocused (Jun 27, 2018)

crashpc said:


> We already had this kind of discussion and attitude in sensor DR discussions.
> Turned out to be important one, even though people were called nasty, minor forum whiners...



That's a pretty gross mischaracterization of the Dynamic Range discussion. No one on this forum ever said dynamic range was unimportant. What happened was that a handful of people were obsessed with dynamic range (taking pictures with lens caps on, for example) and many were mostly interested in bashing all things Canon, using dynamic range as an excuse. 

Those who were irrational and had a skewed perspective were criticized and yes, sometimes the discussions got heated. But, the reality was that most of the people on the forum were trying to keep things in perspective and critical of those who made it out to be more important than it really was. 

So I suppose this battery gauge discussion is somewhat similar, as most of the people on this forum see it as a trivial complaint.


----------



## crashpc (Jun 27, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> crashpc said:
> 
> 
> > Calling someone anything for wanting usable feature is no reasonable point in the forum too.
> ...



I didn´t do that claim. If I even touched it, I would say "most user would most probably enjoy the upgade", or something along that line.

Evidence, or lack of it, doesn´t set reality by absolute means. If I don´t have an evidence that someone killed someone else, it doesn´t absolutely mean he didn´t do it. As we have hints that this might be the case "nerfing" while the capabilities are obviously present in the hardware, than we have valid and reasonable point here. I also didn´t call anybody anything for not having the need. The *response* to this behavior was a reaction to the attitude and to the capabilities discussion, not preference discussion. 

I see and understand those differences, yet we do not agree on certain aspects of it. That is okay. I didn´t start with who doesn´t have an idea though.


----------



## crashpc (Jun 27, 2018)

unfocused said:


> crashpc said:
> 
> 
> > We already had this kind of discussion and attitude in sensor DR discussions.
> ...



That´s not how it went. Skewing informations in works again. I was part of many discussions at that time, and anybody who wanted more DR and expressed that openly, was some way or another confronted or attacked in a way he either should not want it, becasue he is not able to handle his camera to deliver desired results, or have been shown door to go buy SONY. Me included, and many others. Or because it is not doable for the price. Ridiculous.
This is exactly the same situation in the attitude and users behavior.


----------



## fullstop (Jun 27, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Are an overwhelming majority of users here asking for a % charge battery readout, or 17% more battery power in select camera models, or an EF-M 85mm f/2.4 lens?



Over 18% more shot reach on every battery charge with a better 2018 battery pack instead of a weaker 2012 one? With no or an absolutely negligible penalty in price or size/weight? Well, I would certainly hope that even in this forum ;-) a strong majority would be for it. If you want to get a clearer indication, simply launch a voting thread.  

Same for percent battery gauge - did anyone really say they definitely "would not want it added", if they had a choice? Again, no extra cost, no other penalty, ON/OFF user-switchable in menu.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2018)

crashpc said:


> I also didn´t call anybody anything for not having the need. The *response* to this behavior was a reaction to the attitude and to the capabilities discussion, not preference discussion.
> 
> I see and understand those differences, yet we do not agree on certain aspects of it. That is okay. I didn´t start with who doesn´t have an idea though.



Ahhh, I understand. Perhaps you are referring to *responses* like this:



crashpc said:


> Got good chuckle about negative signal values readings.
> Now it turns out who is the engineer and electro guy, and who just assertive nut with no usable arguments.
> 
> ...It is very unequal fight between devs/techs and politics and trolls.



Remind me, who didn’t have an idea of what they were talking about there, and who ended up without a usable argument in that ‘very unequal fight’ you mentioned? Do you feel embarrassed that an 'assertive nut with no usable arguments' turns out to have more relevant technical knowledge than you, a self-proclaimed 'engineer and electro guy'?


----------



## Mikehit (Jun 27, 2018)

crashpc said:


> That´s not how it went. Skewing informations in works again. I was part of many discussions at that time, and anybody who wanted more DR and expressed that openly, was some way or another confronted or attacked in a way he either should not want it, becasue he is not able to handle his camera to deliver desired results, or have been shown door to go buy SONY. Me included, and many others. Or because it is not doable for the price. Ridiculous.
> This is exactly the same situation in the attitude and users behavior.



I was involved in those discussions as well and the vocal 'we want more DR' were not only (and understandably) wanting a superior sensor but extended that argument to say quite clearly that Canon had to have an improved DR sensor to beat Sony or they would lose market share and lose their #1 spot. Critics of that view pointed out that Canon had had (supposedly) inferior sensors for 10 years and that had not happened and that fact alone called into doubt the importance of DR as a marketing feature.

Everyone agreed more DR was good, the dispute was its relative importance in the design of a camera.


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 27, 2018)

fullstop said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Is it really hard to understand that "when the dang last bar starts flashing" it is time to change the battery? Don't see what your complaint is. You want it to, instead, read that you have 1% left? Wow. :
> ...



Ahhh... but here's your problem. You assume that Sony's 65% indicator is correct and accurate. You have absolutely no way to prove that. If it is accurate, then why does Sony keep using the bar indicator at all? Hmmmm? Sony doubles down and can't provide accuracy in either? Which is correct? How do you know it really is 65% and not 75%? Hmmmmm? You have no earthly idea. 

As usual, Avtvm, you use this forum to proclaim that Sony got it right when you really don't know it. Believing it is accurate is far different than knowing it. Survey? Something tells me Canon knows what the market wants and provides it better than anyone else.

Keep saving your nickels. One of these days you'll get the camera you really want. Sony.

BTW: There's a guy here that writes code. His name is Harry. Y'all should get together. Just let him know it'll only take a few lines. Or are lines the problem?


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 27, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> crashpc said:
> 
> 
> > Calling someone anything for wanting usable feature is no reasonable point in the forum too.
> ...



Harry could write the code in just a few minutes. Costs nothing.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 27, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Which is correct? How do you know it really is 65% and not 75%?



I’m not generally a fan of redundant displays, for this very reason. 

I used to dive closed circuit rebreathers. My unit had 3 oxygen sensors (most do; redundancy is life critical), and a display for each. Typical methodology when they disagree is to take the two which are in closest agreement and make a decision. 

It’s a much lower pressure (pun intended) choice with a camera battery. For my use case, it’s in fact trivial. If the thing shows 2 of 6 bars, or 30%, or whatever (I’m speaking arbitrarily here), I’ll find a convienient time to swap. There are other use cases where more information may be desired, e.g. shooting extended cinematic scenes. I presume the they use external power, but I’m not a video guy.


----------



## crashpc (Jun 27, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> crashpc said:
> 
> 
> > I also didn´t call anybody anything for not having the need. The *response* to this behavior was a reaction to the attitude and to the capabilities discussion, not preference discussion.
> ...



Who?
The guy trying to impose that there is no hardware in the camera able to measure and/or display better battery statsbetter way. It has been technically described in this thread, how it is possible with current hardware, and even more.
I haven´t seen anybody on that "not possible" side expressing himself with more knowledge at all. 
What you write here is outright false. I didn´t end up without usable argument. I ended with negation and refusal to continue with nonrelated personal arguments, because of attempts for personal attacks, which I partially returned (my bad, but whatever). 
Again. Even if I remained silent, that doesn´t make anybody being right instantly. 
Wannabe forum leaders absolutely hate when someone comes in, and says just NO.

Yet you continue with pulling out personal stuff to feed your agenda. Weak.


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 27, 2018)

crashpc said:


> Who?
> The guy trying to impose that there is no hardware in the camera able to measure and/or display better battery statsbetter way.



As far as I recall, nobody said that. What was said is (paraphrased): getting accurate enough charge remaining information to make meaningful a % display requires compatible batteries. 

Not that the batteries used are not properly equipped.
Not that the camera is unable to communicate with a properly equipped battery.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2018)

crashpc said:


> What you write here is outright false. I didn´t end up without usable argument. I ended with negation and refusal to continue with nonrelated personal arguments, because of attempts for personal attacks, which I partially returned (my bad, but whatever).
> Again. Even if I remained silent, that doesn´t make anybody being right instantly.
> Wannabe forum leaders absolutely hate when someone comes in, and says just NO.
> 
> Yet you continue with pulling out personal stuff to feed your agenda. Weak.



Not sure if you’re confused, unable/unwilling to read what was posted, or merely being intentionally obtuse. The analogy was made between a battery gauge (bar-based graphical display vs. a numerical percentage readout) and the signal strength readout on mobile phones (bar/dot-based graphical display vs. a numerical value readout). The comment was made (by 3kramd5) that phones most likely don’t display signal strength because people would be confused by the negative values, to which you responded:



crashpc said:


> Got good chuckle about negative signal values readings.
> Now it turns out who is the engineer and electro guy, and who just assertive nut with no usable arguments.



As was later pointed out (and illustrated, and linked), negative values are the norm for measurements of radio signal strength. 

In retrospect, perhaps you were referring to the response to the statement about negative signal values, and not to the concept of negative signal values. In that case, my apologies (and in the future, it may help to quote the post you’re replying to, which can avoid all sorts of confusion). But...I rather doubt that’s the case, since that means you’d be saying the argument for a more precise/numerical battery display —an argument you clearly support— was put forth by the ‘assertive nut with no usable arguments’. 

So, you have a choice: confirm that you are supporting an argument made by an ‘assertive nut’ (in which case, you have my apology for the confusion, but it leaves you looking quite foolish), admit that your mocking of negative signal strength and the technical acumen of the person who brought that up was inappropriate and based on your lack of knowledge...or just continue to ignore/avoid the whole issue, and deflect the issue of your personally attacking someone else by accusing others of the same behavior. Talk about weak....


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## stevelee (Jun 27, 2018)

*Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification*



neuroanatomist said:


> Indeed. Even on my iPhone, which can display the % charge, that setting is off by default.



Under "Battery Health" my iPhone rates its battery as an 88. For someone of my generation that means "good beat; easy to dance to."


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## Talys (Jun 27, 2018)

crashpc said:


> Who?
> The guy trying to impose that there is no hardware in the camera able to measure and/or display better battery statsbetter way. It has been technically described in this thread, how it is possible with current hardware, and even more.
> I haven´t seen anybody on that "not possible" side expressing himself with more knowledge at all.
> What you write here is outright false. I didn´t end up without usable argument. I ended with negation and refusal to continue with nonrelated personal arguments, because of attempts for personal attacks, which I partially returned (my bad, but whatever).
> ...



omg. Why are there pages and pages on this forum about a freaking battery meter percentage indicator? Surely this is not a qualifying feature for a camera for most users, since an overwhelming majority of cameras sold do not indicate battery % in either the VF or LCD. 

If you're not of that opinion, go start a battery indicator review website and plot out the accuracy of the indicators versus actual shots of every camera known to man, and make millions on the banner ads from the like-minded buyers who will flock to the site as a buying resource of which camera to buy. Forget DXOMark -- hello, BatteryIndicatorMark. There could even be a whole forum devoted to battery indicator talk. Just not... this one... please :


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## stevelee (Jun 27, 2018)

Instead of putting a date stamp in the picture, I want a stamp that shows the battery percentage. How else will folks be able to evaluate the charge on the battery when I took the picture? None of my cameras at present even show that in the metadata for their pictures. I won't buy any more camera bodies until Canon quits omitting this feature. What kind of fools do they take us for?


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## BillB (Jun 27, 2018)

Talys said:


> crashpc said:
> 
> 
> > Who?
> ...



I have to admit that the great battery indicator crusade has been quite an impressive achievement in generatiing thread pages out of very little at all. Who would have thought....


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## fullstop (Jun 27, 2018)

@talys 
i started the battery gauge discussion, simply by making a bit of a flippant statement, that new Canon cameras seem to be differentiated by tiny minutiae details like "4-stage vs. 6- stage" battery charge indicators. and that i'd rather like a percentage accurate gauge. 

that statement did ofc not sit well with a few canapo.. errm esteemed fellow forum members. and from there it spread out. that was not my intention. i did not want to troll. i really would appreciate accurate AND more orecise battery gauges. and i still believe it would be possible with quite little effort and cost. but ... lol


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## Durf (Jun 27, 2018)

BillB said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > crashpc said:
> ...



It's only because Sony has the % indicator and Canon doesn't, thus completely making the Sony the far superior camera. 

A % symbol on the back of a camera can be an Earth shattering experience for some!


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## HarryFilm (Jun 27, 2018)

fullstop said:


> @talys
> i started the battery gauge discussion, simply by making a bit of a flippant statement, that new Canon cameras seem to be differentiated by tiny minutiae details like "4-stage vs. 6- stage" battery charge indicators. and that i'd rather like a percentage accurate gauge.
> 
> that statement did ofc not sit well with a few canapo..[\s] errm esteemed fellow forum members. and from there it spread out. that was not my intention. i did not want to troll. i really would appreciate accurate AND more orecise battery gauges. and i still believe it would be possible with quite little effort and cost. but ... lol




---

If you want to SOLVE this issue with a battery meter, JUST GET A BIGGER BATTERY!

...OR...do what we do! We take out the individual cells from a Canon battery case and put in a transformer, some shunting circuits, some external-to-case wiring, get it certified by the electrical engineers and PRESTO, we can use THESE batteries put into a custom box underneath the camera grip:

the NP1B-style batteries:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/389035-REG/IDX_NP_L7S_NP_L7S_NP_1_Style_Lithium_Ion.html



...OR....

this REALLY BIG ONE at 293 watts which should last ALL DAY and NIGHT:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1409382-REG/bebob_engineering_a290rm_cine_snap_on_high_load_battery.html

YEAH! It's a bit heavy but hey! what works is what works!


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## Kit. (Jun 27, 2018)

fullstop said:


> I would be more interested to see, what the charge in % is,


In % of what?

Electric charge in coulombs? No, you are not interested to see it, because it guarantees you nothing. Your camera will stop (due to undervoltage) long before it would be able to consume all this charge.

And how _exactly_ long before it will stop before depends on the camera usage. So you will want to see different gauges for "% for shooting video with manual focus on tripod", "% for shooting video with autofocus and IS", "% for shooting photos with autofocus but no internal flash with room temperature", "% for shooting photos with autofocus and internal flash with room temperature", "% for shooting photos with autofocus but no internal flash with <preset> temperature", "% for shooting photos with autofocus and internal flash with <preset> temperature" and so on, right?

Or do you want a battery/camera to intentionally underreport its charge in order to _guarantee_ the availability of the percentage it shows? So it will show 0% when it could actually take a hundred more of OVF non-IS manual focus shots?


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## fullstop (Jun 27, 2018)

i want to see "remaining charge in % [of full charge]". It is not difficult to do. Even Canon ahs it implemented in amny DSLRs, just buried in a menu. I would like to see it on the real LCD and in viewfidner, unless i chosse to suppress the info display. 

but probably too hard tio understand for some canapolo  errm "fellow forum mates" here who unsucessfully try to be as obtusive as possible. LOL. and f u.


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 27, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > crashpc said:
> ...



Harry is busy making a GPS receiver in what is essentially a faraday cage by reconfiguring the logic gates in an internal processor. He’ll be done shortly but then sell it to Kodak for “private island money”.


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## unfocused (Jun 27, 2018)

BillB said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > omg. Why are there pages and pages on this forum about a freaking battery meter percentage indicator? Surely this is not a qualifying feature for a camera for most users...
> ...



Apparently they are unaware that Canon sells batteries as a separate item so that you can actually buy an extra battery and keep it with you.


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## Kit. (Jun 27, 2018)

fullstop said:


> i want to see "remaining charge in % [of full charge]". It is not difficult to do.


What do you mean by "remaining charge in % [of full charge]"? Remaining for what? And if that (for which the charge is remaining) consumes charge non-linearly, should the % be the real % of the charge or the % of charge corrected for this non-linearity?



fullstop said:


> Even Canon ahs it implemented in amny DSLRs, just buried in a menu.


And what does Canon mean by that?


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## fullstop (Jun 27, 2018)

Kit. said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > i want to see "remaining charge in % [of full charge]". It is not difficult to do.
> ...



i just love you techno-babble nitpickers.

Full charge. Yes, I know, technically there is no such thing, it is infinitesimally "below full charge the very moment it comes out of charger, like acanon camera taken out of its original packaging drops to 50% resale value that very instant .. but quite straightforward, i really dont give a f*ck about your techno-babble 
FULL is "as FULL as those f*cking Canon batteries get fresh out of charger" = 100% 

Battery f*cking EMPTY [technically: voltage has dripped so low, that onöly camera operation left is flashing "battery exhausted on LCD" = 0%.

Everything in between is "percent charge remaining" ... straightforward totally LINEAR. No f*cking decibels. No f*cking negative values. no logarithms. No obfuscating. No techno pseudo-engineering babble. Just straightforward percentage. 

got it, canapolo .. dear nitpicking fellow forum mates?


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## Ozarker (Jun 28, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



I heard he was going to buy Maui.


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## Cthulhu (Jun 28, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Cthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > Again you with your silly arguments that if Canon does not do something, it must be because of some highly thought out process...that is specially ridiculous when referring to a company with a loooong history of not giving customers basic simple functions that it's competitors offer all the time. Give yourself a break, it must be exhausting to always have to defend silly stuff. I see my 1dx mk2 as very much a precision instrument, why argue against it being more precise? Canon is extremely slow to improve and hardly listens to feedback from it's customers - save for industry wide outrage like with the 5dmk 4 clog, which is more listening to retailers than it's own customers.
> ...



When did I say my needs or wants represent those of the majority? 

Also your alternate scenario is silly, they don't make them with such inaccurate readouts now, why would you expect it to change? Not to mention that 1 bar can get you hundreds of shots.


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## Kit. (Jun 28, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Kit. said:
> 
> 
> > fullstop said:
> ...


Don't they teach physics in school in your country? Ohm's law, for example? Coulomb's law?



fullstop said:


> FULL is "as FULL as those f*cking Canon batteries get fresh out of charger" = 100%


OK, a battery can mark itself as "100%" when it cannot be charged further. Which _doesn't_ necessarily mean that it holds as much charge in coulombs as a _new_ battery that cannot be charged further.

Now, how should a battery that left the charger not fully charged mark itself?



fullstop said:


> Battery f*cking EMPTY [technically: voltage has dripped so low, that onöly camera operation left is flashing "battery exhausted on LCD" = 0%.


This camera condition doesn't correspond to any particular value of charge in battery. In fact, when my PowerShot switches into this condition for the first time and I don't have a spare battery with me I just remove and reinsert the battery - and continue shooting.



fullstop said:


> Everything in between is "percent charge remaining" ... straightforward totally LINEAR. No f*cking decibels. No f*cking negative values. no logarithms. No obfuscating. No techno pseudo-engineering babble. Just straightforward percentage.


Percentage of _what_? Do you really not know which physical property you mean by "charge" here? Looks so.


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## Talys (Jun 28, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Now, how should a battery that left the charger not fully charged mark itself?



I have a novel idea...

Good 'nuff:

· [ O O O O ]

Could use more juice:

· [ O O O ]

What, didn't you see it was still flashing slow when you yanked it?

· [ O O ]

You're probably gonna run dry but good luck:

· [ O ]

You didn't plug in the charger, dude:

· [ ]


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## fullstop (Jun 28, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Percentage of _what_? Do you really not know which physical property you mean by "charge" here? Looks so.



OMFG ... "incessant semantics nitpicking". A telltale characteristic of Canapo ... errm a few esteemed fellow forum members here. But - no problem. 

100% = full charge = as printed on battery. [alternatively: or "as much as a used, but still functional battery will hold".] After some thought, I would prefer the nominal charge printed on battery to be the 100% yardstick. If a (used) battery only gets to say 80% of that, I would like the meter to start count down from 80%. That way I get a clue about battery health condition along with knowing how much juice is left. 

0% = voltage drops so low, that camera is no longer operational; not including sometimes possible stop gap measures like taking out and re-inserting for a few more shots. [whatever the specific voltage value for a specific camera model is - it is available to firmware]. 

50% = midpoint between 100 and 0% as per definition above.


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 28, 2018)

fullstop said:


> After some thought, I would prefer the nominal charge printed on battery to be the 100% yardstick. If a (used) battery only gets to say 80% of that, I would like the meter to start count down from 80%. That way I get a clue about battery health condition along with knowing how much juice is left.



The only way I am aware of to quantify the capacity (e.g. watt-hours or the commonly used surrogate amp-hours) is to discharge the battery to a constant load, and time it.

If you had a camera with independent batteries, one could conceivably power the monitoring of another’s constant load discharge, yielding a number to ratio with the spec sheet value. 

I am not an EE, so maybe I’m missing the obvious.


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## fullstop (Jun 28, 2018)

well, i am "just a user". As such I simply don't accept, that % battery meters are possible and implemented in many smartphones and in some cameras, including e.g. Canon 5D series, only buried in a menu, instead of on screen. With a user menu toggle to switch between OFF, bar indicator, percent #, both. 

Ideally I'd not even like to see % battery charge remaining, but "range" information, as in cars where we get quite good "range km/miles left" predictions, based on current consumption and previous consumption and whatever sensor inputs and AI. Not to mention a Tesla instrument panel ... 

Why not use the same concept on camera displays and/or in viewfinder: predicted (!) "number of shots left" [stills capture] or "minutes of video recording left" [video capture]. In 2018 this should really be possible in any camera without major engineering breakthroughs, programming miracles or excessive additional cost. No?


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## Kit. (Jun 28, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Kit. said:
> 
> 
> > Percentage of _what_? Do you really not know which physical property you mean by "charge" here? Looks so.
> ...


So, your lack of education doesn't let you comprehend that the value you want Canon to display on LCD doesn't physically exist, but is just a "convenient" lie, like Santa Claus?



fullstop said:


> 100% = full charge = as printed on battery.


That's electric charge, which in SI is measured in coulombs (C; 1 mAh = 3.6 C).



fullstop said:


> 0% = voltage drops so low, that camera is no longer operational; not including sometimes possible stop gap measures like taking out and re-inserting for a few more shots. [whatever the specific voltage value for a specific camera model is - it is available to firmware].


That's voltage - electric potential difference, measured in volts (V) - a completely different unit. All they have in common is that voltage _multiplied by_ electric charge is energy (or work; measured in SI in joules, J).



fullstop said:


> 50% = midpoint between 100 and 0% as per definition above.


And what is exactly a "midpoint" between coulombs and volts? Is it square root of joules? Or what?

(how you would expect a camera + a battery to calculate this crap for you is another question)


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 28, 2018)

fullstop said:


> well, i am "just a user". As such I simply don't accept, that % battery meters are possible and implemented in many smartphones and in some cameras, including e.g. Canon 5D series, only buried in a menu, instead of on screen. With a user menu toggle to switch between OFF, bar indicator, percent #, both.



% battery displays are possible, of course. No one said otherwise nor asked for anyone to believe they are not. 



fullstop said:


> Ideally I'd not even like to see % battery charge remaining, but "range" information, as in cars where we get quite good "range km/miles left" predictions, based on current consumption and previous consumption and whatever sensor inputs and AI. Not to mention a Tesla instrument panel ...
> 
> Why not use the same concept on camera displays and/or in viewfinder: predicted (!) "number of shots left" [stills capture] or "minutes of video recording left" [video capture]. In 2018 this should really be possible in any camera without major engineering breakthroughs, programming miracles or excessive additional cost. No?



Yes, any camera using a compatible battery should be capable of doing a rough prediction of time remaining or exposures remaining based on current conditions (temperature, usage, etc). As mentioned several pages ago, an IC (sold by multiple vendors) within the battery assembly can monitor and integrate the current-time function, and communicate it with the camera. The subsequent math would be trivial, but the accuracy of the data is dependent upon the smarts in the battery.


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 28, 2018)

Kit. said:


> And what is exactly a "midpoint" between coulombs and volts? Is it square root of joules? Or what?



BTus


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 28, 2018)

fullstop said:


> well, i am "just a user". As such I simply don't accept, that % battery meters are possible and implemented in many smartphones and in some cameras, including e.g. Canon 5D series, only buried in a menu, instead of on screen. With a user menu toggle to switch between OFF, bar indicator, percent #, both.



I think we’ve been through this already, but to reiterate... 

*1) It’s possible.* On cameras that use ‘reporting’ batteries (where you can see the % charge by going into the menus), displaying that on an LCD would be possible. On the main/rear LCD it could be implemented in firmware, while for segmented passive LCDs like the top LCD on current DSLRs it would need hardware changes and thus have to be on new models. 

*2) Canon is aware of it.*. Folks at Canon have this capability on their smartphones, so they know about it and may even use it themselves.

*3) It hasn’t been implemented.* Obviously, you know this or you wouldn’t be asking for it.

*Conclusion:*. Canon doesn’t see the need for it on their cameras. Why? We don’t know, only Canon does. Could be they considered it, and declaratively decided to not implement it to keep the UI streamlined (not just display clutter by showing the same information in two ways, but also to avoid feature creep and ever-expanding menu options). Could be no one is asking for it (people asked for more DR, people asked for f/8 AF, and they got them). Could be they were going to add it to all past and future DSLRs, and they knew you wanted the feature years ago (even though this thread is the first I’ve seen you mention it), but they decided not to include it just to frustrate you.


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## Ozarker (Jun 29, 2018)

fullstop said:


> well, i am "just a user". As such I simply don't accept, that % battery meters are possible and implemented in many smartphones and in some cameras, including e.g. Canon 5D series, only buried in a menu, instead of on screen. With a user menu toggle to switch between OFF, bar indicator, percent #, both.
> 
> Ideally I'd not even like to see % battery charge remaining, but "range" information, as in cars where we get quite good "range km/miles left" predictions, based on current consumption and previous consumption and whatever sensor inputs and AI. Not to mention a Tesla instrument panel ...
> 
> Why not use the same concept on camera displays and/or in viewfinder: predicted (!) "number of shots left" [stills capture] or "minutes of video recording left" [video capture]. In 2018 this should really be possible in any camera without major engineering breakthroughs, programming miracles or excessive additional cost. No?



Ummm...


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## Talys (Jun 29, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Ummm...



lol


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## fullstop (Jun 29, 2018)

;D
hehehe. 

who needs accurate and precise [fuel] gauges? Or info on remaining range. As long as you have a spare battery along. Or a canister. 

https://youtu.be/a5gFuX8HHJQ


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## R1-7D (Jun 29, 2018)

When I started reading this thread my iPhone had 17% charge left; now it only has 14%. What a waste.


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## fullstop (Jun 29, 2018)

R1-7D said:


> When I started reading this thread my iPhone had 17% charge left; now it only has 14%. What a waste.



hehe. On a Canon "4-stage" bar indicator you would not even know this. ;D


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