# Childish Behaviour



## altenae (Feb 8, 2012)

When Canon started the Megapixel race the only thing you read on forums was:

Why can't Canon do like Nikon. 
Less MP and clean high ISO images (like d700/d3s)

Now Canon is doing exactly this ( flagship 1dx) !
Always complain. So many forum topics where people are switching to Nikon ? why ?

I am certain 99% will not need 36mp images. 
I would say go outside and take some pictures. 
All current cameras (Canon and Nikon) will do just fine for most of us. (I would say all of us)

I really hope Canon will not go into MP race. 

Edward van Altena


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## vlim (Feb 8, 2012)

> I really hope Canon will not go into MP race



Me too, i don't need that kind of gear for wildlife photos but clean high ISO images, yes


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## Canon-F1 (Feb 8, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> Because 10 or 12 wasn't enough for many but 18 or 21 is? Because many see MPs beyond a certain level as providing less bang for the buck? Many people feel we've reached a comfortable level with MPs but haven't with dynamic range and low light performance?
> 
> You're assuming that people are acting irrationally. They aren't. They are merely satisfied with the megapixels we have and now desire that other aspects of image quality be the focus of design improvements. How is that childish?



read again.... and try to understand what he wrote.

and i am absolutely with him.. he is right.


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## vlim (Feb 8, 2012)

> I am certain 99% will not need 36mp images



How many of us do A2 or A1 print ?

In my opinion wiith 18 to 20mp you already have very high quality A3 printing... But once again i'm not taking photos in a studio.


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## wockawocka (Feb 8, 2012)

True, I've printed countless A3 prints from 22mp.

But, there is that nice crop factor...however no good if the IQ is rubbish, which is why I'm stepping away from the D800 as a viable camera. I'd rather go medium format which in all fairness is really cheap.

I've been watching H3D 39's for the last few weeks, some go for the same price, with a lens for the price of a 1DX.
Ok, so it lacks a lot of features that are convenient but for studio work it's excellent.


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## well_dunno (Feb 8, 2012)

My impression is that most of the people here are not willing to have a high mp cam but better DR and ISO performance from 21-22 mp sensor on 5D x or mk3 and that has not changed.

I imagine you are referring only to those who are willing to have high mp on 5D x /mk3 but then they might need it for their work... I don't know, wall size prints? Cropping? Either case, I think we will see two cameras this year and both edges will be covered...

Cheers!


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## gmrza (Feb 8, 2012)

vlim said:


> > I really hope Canon will not go into MP race
> 
> 
> 
> Me too, i don't need that kind of gear for wildlife photos but clean high ISO images, yes



The biggest beneficiaries of more MP are probably now only Intel, Seagate and WD.


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## Hillsilly (Feb 8, 2012)

Canon, why do you insist on giving us cameras with either too few or too many MPs? Wouldn't it be easier to just give us a camera with the optimal amount of MPs that will please everyone?


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## docsavage123 (Feb 8, 2012)

My friend shoots rock gigs with a Nikon D300s and Sigma Lenses, He even does video on it at 720p.

He is not interested in the D800 at all, or full frame. He currently has had Magazine covers done at 12 megapixel and A2 and A3 prints done professionally so this I must have 36megapixel 75 meg files is insane. 

Just shooting raw on my 7D takes up loads of space and you are right once someone gets this camera and quickly realises that their nice shine laptop/mac cannot handle the raw files with out pausing/stuttering and filling up their hard disks in no time at all.

Saying that I still would like a 5D3 whenever it appears. hopefully same resolution as the current 5dmk II.


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## alipaulphotography (Feb 8, 2012)

The Nikon D3S is my current perfect camera in terms of specifications. But I'm sure canon will come up with an alternative in the near future. Can't quite afford the bulky 1DX yet!
I shoot semi-professionally at the moment with a 5D original. I only desire cleanish ISO to 6400, video capability and all my 9 AF points to be as good as the centre one. 12MP is plenty - Less time at a computer and more time shooting.


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## adebrophy (Feb 8, 2012)

Just joined the forum as interesting in the debate here. From my own POV I'm still happy with the size images from my 40D but I guess the thing to consider isn't just prints but where the whole tech eco-system around photos is going. 

Seeing what's happening in flatscreen technology with huge wall-size ultra high definition screens in development is probably an interesting context for bigger images. Any pro level cameras bought later in 2012 will surely need to be able to serve their owners into the early days of 4K screens, and surely there's no harm in the images themselves being future proofed to last longer to when even higher resolution displays are possible. 

That's not to say that I think this is a practical need today for 99.999% of people but I guess (pure speculation mind) that the major players like Canon, Nikon et al must be keeping a weather eye on that context.


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## Sunnystate (Feb 8, 2012)

Not sure which side displays childish behaviour.
Sometimes, I feel like all the opponents to the higher megapixel cameras, are people that have spent years of savings on 5D body and two or three lenses, and are terrified that they precious investment will become outdated/obsolete just like that, especially if new gen lenses will be needed to keep up with resolution.
Let's hope Canon will follow sound business instincts, and contribute or lead in creative development, instead listening to unreasonable childish fears of current camera owners. 
The whole new, let's say "very bold" pricing thing from Canon is another story, and is potentially causing the same effect, making even professionals to think twice about some radical new upgrades.


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## altenae (Feb 8, 2012)

> , I feel like all the opponents to the higher megapixel cameras, are people that have spent years of savings on 5D body and two or three lenses, and are terrified that they precious investment will become outdated/obsolete



Not really.
What I meant with childish is the switch to other brands everytime somthing new is announced.

It also takes a while for my 70-200 II & 400 II to be obsolete


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## etg9 (Feb 8, 2012)

1st post here...

I believe the desire to want people to do what you're doing not based upon their needs or wants is not the most mature thing ever. If I was a studio photog or a landscape guy the D800 is a pretty sexy looking camera and unlike medium format Nikon lenses can be had at a similar price and with nearly as large of a range as Canon. I personally have thought a lot about the 645D and realize that it would be a really fun camera to go shoot with and possible take some great photos. 

There are people who will like and not like the direction that any company moves in and will switch companies based upon that. This affects me in no way what so ever, I wish them the best of luck and I hope they find what they are looking for.


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## wellfedCanuck (Feb 8, 2012)

Don't discount other people's needs because they don't match your own, some people have a use for higher MP. My "serious" photography is aerial/realestate/recon. The ability to keep zooming in on an image for details that were unknown at the time of shooting is huge. Printing? Who does that? Pop the image via wifi for display on a 55" LED.


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## photophreek (Feb 8, 2012)

Speaking about childish behaviour....yesterdays discussions about the new 24-70 and the added mp posts went on and on for pages and pages. It really got crazy and rather silly. I'm sure the Nikon shooters were laughing their asses off about all the Canon fanboys going out of their minds about a lens. 

These discussions were everywhere. Not only here, but on every photographic discussion website. Don't get me wrong, I know this is a gears forum, but do we have to repeat the same thing for 15 pages. The lens is out (finally) and it's expensive and I really could care less about charts and what they say. 

Wait till the lens is available and all the fanboys can run out and photograph rulers and brick walls and go on forever about the pixels they couldn't peep with this new lens because they didn't have the latest and greatest mp camera from Canon and are now switching to whatever camera manufacturer.


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## Neeneko (Feb 8, 2012)

Something to keep in mind, forums are not monocultures. It is quite possible, in fact likely, that the people who were complaining that Canon was focusing on MP are not the same people complaining when Canon focuses on DR/ISO/etc.

So you are probably hearing two groups on the same forum, each being unhappy when they feel that their particular needs (or desires if one wants to assume they do not actually need XYZ) are being kept in mind.

It always kinda sucks when competition and product lines are small enough that only one thing seems to get focused on at a time, and personally that to me feels like the problem with both Canon and Nikon,.. both have tunnel vision and a group think culture in their planning... rather then address multiple concerns at once they pick one or two 'in' things and focus their entire product line in that direction, rather then producing divergent products to meet the needs of multiple consumer demographics.

Canon COULD have done both at once. But instead they focused on specific camera qualities (that we advantageous to their new video focus) and have not really addressed other groups. Previously they over-focused on the MP war to the exclusion of other qualities. Both are bad and piss people off, just different people each time.

Sadly, that is how these corporate cultures work. People sniff out what the 'in' thing is and promotions tend to come from getting behind that particular focus and running it into the ground. Anything that breaks from that narrative no only carries personal risk for the division that tries to go that direction, but it is also a threat to everyone who IS following the group since, if it succeeds, it makes them look bad, thus it gets quietly killed until a new fad comes into fashion with the executives.


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## DBCdp (Feb 8, 2012)

Interesting comments. I like Canon. I like the ergonomics of the camera body, the style of their lenses, the color and tonality of the pictures. I haven't shot with anything else so I don't know all the apples to oranges comparison values. I simply like Canon. That's enough for me. My 5D Mk II was a very pleasing upgrade from my 5D and I'm still happy with it. My 7D does different things, IQ may not be exactly the same but it's still very nice and I cannot complain. Do I like what I see with the new lens developments? Yes, I do! Will I get the 24-70mm MkII or hold out for the 5D3? Don't know yet. But I will be spending more with Canon, one way or the other.

Canon has the new S100, the new G1X (which I'm also thinking about) and the rumor mill has them splitting the 5 line to appeal to everyone. What's there to complain about? Seems to me they're bending over backwards to get everyone on board Canon and soak up ALL our monies! Good corporate think there, imo.

I say, Great Job Canon! Keep up the good work! 

My wife says, oh no, broke again!


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## Maui5150 (Feb 8, 2012)

I think some people simply like to stir the pot. 

Like anything else, people's needs and wants can vary greatly. All the MP in the world means nothing if the IQ is not there, if anything, just makes it harder and longer to clean up, because in old computing terms... GIGO Garbage In, Garbage Out. 

I think it is foolish to expect immediate announcements or counters by companies, but do think that over time there is a natural ebb and flow to the competition. 

Competition is awesome! It means better products. Better improvements. and ultimately better prices.


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## photophreek (Feb 8, 2012)

The childish/silliness is continuing on POTN. Someone is asking whether IS will be available on the Mk III version of the 24-70mm. Unbelieveable!!


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## awinphoto (Feb 8, 2012)

What people want is to have that perfect camera that will fit their needs and if they dont get that, then it's a HUGE disappointment and they have to let the world know about it. In the end, canon has their feelers out in the market talking to the people they know they are selling their products to (not our target perceived audiences, but their target audiences) and gearing their stuff to suit those people because they know that those people will buy their gear. So it is what it is...


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## K-amps (Feb 8, 2012)

docsavage123 said:


> My friend shoots rock gigs with a Nikon D300s and Sigma Lenses, He even does video on it at 720p.
> 
> He is not interested in the D800 at all, or full frame. He currently has had Magazine covers done at 12 megapixel and A2 and A3 prints done professionally so this I must have 36megapixel 75 meg files is insane.
> 
> ...



Doc.. agree with you. File sizes add up in performance and sluggishness too. 

Since you have both the 7D and the 5D, which IQ do you prefer for portraits/architecture/landscapes?


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## K-amps (Feb 8, 2012)

Ricku said:


> photophreek said:
> 
> 
> > The childish/silliness is continuing on POTN. Someone is asking whether IS will be available on the Mk III version of the 24-70mm. Unbelieveable!!
> ...



There is a sizeable chunk of people (many not even on CR.. yes there are Canon fans outside of CR ) that were torn between the 24-105 F4 with IS or the 24-70 f2.8 no IS, should they go with a faster lens but no IS or slower lens with IS that was cheaper/ sharper. So many of them waited... and when the replacement for the 24-70 was announced without IS, I am sure many of them felt let down. I can understand their frustration.... they have no worthy partner for their 70-200 f2.8 mk.ii ... Let them grieve and vent. They are our fellow Canoners.


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## awinphoto (Feb 8, 2012)

K-amps said:


> Ricku said:
> 
> 
> > photophreek said:
> ...



Then again for all we know canon COULD be working on (hypothetically speaking) turning the midsize range into the 70-200 series such as 2.8 (24-70) with and without IS, and the F4 (24-105) with and without IS... It's cool being bummed and i get that... but perhaps enough messages/emails/contact regarding this, you may see it into completion, just beware what you are asking for... Such as the 70-200 is having a $600 premium, you could see an already expensive lens get even more expensive.


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## KeithR (Feb 8, 2012)

Ricku said:


> What is so unbelievable about it?



The idea that anyone on POTN is going to have _the first clue_ about whether the next version of the lens will have IS?


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## AprilForever (Feb 8, 2012)

altenae said:


> When Canon started the Megapixel race the only thing you read on forums was:
> 
> Why can't Canon do like Nikon.
> Less MP and clean high ISO images (like d700/d3s)
> ...





wellfedCanuck said:


> Don't discount other people's needs because they don't match your own, some people have a use for higher MP. My "serious" photography is aerial/realestate/recon. The ability to keep zooming in on an image for details that were unknown at the time of shooting is huge. Printing? Who does that? Pop the image via wifi for display on a 55" LED.



I'm with you here. I like having as many MP's as possible. Why? Cropping! I shoot birds. And those of you who do well understand the phenomenon. And those of you who would tell me to just get a longer lens, two problems:

1. I don't have 12,000 spare bucks hanging around.

2. An 800 5.6 is very hard to take and use in many of the places I like to go. Humping through the everglades with my current lens is hard enough...

So, is cropping the ideal solution? Maybe not on paper, and perhaps not in a forum discussion, but on the field, and back home on my computer, it is the ideal solution for me.


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## K-amps (Feb 8, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> Then again for all we know canon COULD be working on (hypothetically speaking) turning the midsize range into the 70-200 series such as 2.8 (24-70) with and without IS, and the F4 (24-105) with and without IS... It's cool being bummed and i get that... but perhaps enough messages/emails/contact regarding this, you may see it into completion, just beware what you are asking for... Such as the 70-200 is having a $600 premium, you could see an already expensive lens get even more expensive.



I can pay $2k for a lens worthy enough to pair with the 70-200 f/2.8 mk.ii

Make it IS, and make it white and make it 77mm filter  Better yet, make it 20-70mm F2.8 and I will pay $2.5k for it!


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## Maui5150 (Feb 8, 2012)

Ricku said:


> photophreek said:
> 
> 
> > The childish/silliness is continuing on POTN. Someone is asking whether IS will be available on the Mk III version of the 24-70mm. Unbelieveable!!
> ...



Well given the performance of some of the previous Tamron 28-75s, IS is the least of the problems. Maybe they got their act together, but the 28-75 was know as slow and having focusing issues in low light and having a lot of softness and CA. 

After all, I can dig up an old Yugo, throw a huge super-charger on it, and it still does not mean the car's suspension is crap and while the engine may race faster, it is still a crap car. 

Hey... Sigma has got a 70-200 F/2.8 with IS... I still would take the Canon NON-IS version over it, and probably take both the Canon F/4s as well. Hell, the Canon non-IS is almost the same price as the Sigma with IS... What a rip-off... ah... Not!


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## awinphoto (Feb 8, 2012)

Maui5150 said:


> Ricku said:
> 
> 
> > photophreek said:
> ...



I personally dont know so dont flame me, but did Tamron ever get a version of USM to quiet their AF motor? The last I knew they never got that going yet... Has this changed or are the lenses still noisy?


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## Jim K (Feb 8, 2012)

AprilForever said:


> I'm with you here. I like having as many MP's as possible. Why? Cropping! I shoot birds. And those of you who do well understand the phenomenon. And those of you who would tell me to just get a longer lens, two problems:
> 
> 1. I don't have 12,000 spare bucks hanging around.
> 
> ...



re:#2 Right now Artie Morris is out on his Southwest Florida Workshop and probably has a porter/caddy carrying his 800, 1D4, Gitzo tripod and gimbal head. He blogged about wanting someone to carry his 800 setup and they could carry their own smaller kit and attend all the workshop functions for free.

Like you the 800 and new Series II superteles are out of my range. But I may get a 1D4 before the go away.


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## photophreek (Feb 8, 2012)

Ricku - I'll tell you how unbelieveable it is........the 24-70 III is probably 10 years away. Don't you think that asking a question about a lens that's a decade away is kinda....you know, silly? 

BTW, why is IS such a deal breaker for everybody when the "charts" say that the lens will out resolve Canon's best zoom ever? IS has nothing to do with the IQ of the lens. 

I think it's time for the Canon fanboys to take some real pictures rather than cleaning/polishing and fondling their lenses and whining about gears that is a decade away


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## altenae (Feb 8, 2012)

> I think it's time for the Canon fanboys to take some real pictures rather than cleaning/polishing and fondling their lenses and whining about gears that is a decade away



+1


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## jcns (Feb 8, 2012)

it's a matter of economics
suppose Canon is considering producing a lower grade/consumer level 600 or 800 mm lens.
They still need to factor cost of R&D, tooling and materials.
How many do you think they could sell? And is the volume enough to cover up the initial capital investment (R&D, tooling)? 
My guess is NO.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 8, 2012)

AprilForever said:


> I'm with you here. I like having as many MP's as possible. Why? Cropping! I shoot birds. And those of you who do well understand the phenomenon. And those of you who would tell me to just get a longer lens, two problems:
> 
> 1. I don't have 12,000 spare bucks hanging around.
> 
> ...



Yes, if you can have your landscape cam also perform well for birds too then that sounds good to me.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 8, 2012)

Maui5150 said:


> Well given the performance of some of the previous Tamron 28-75s, IS is the least of the problems. Maybe they got their act together, but the 28-75 was know as slow and having focusing issues in low light and having a lot of softness and CA.



All I can say is my Tamron 28-75 has barely any CA showing on APS-C and while it has some on FF it has less than the 24-105L I tried (and it was sharper center and edge than the L as well). The L had a bit more contrast and much faster AF.

My Tamron 17-50 2.8 was better than my 17-40L.

That said the Tamron 70-200 2.8 has terrible AF for that sort of lens (which often gets used for sports) and the Tamron 70-300VC while offering a ton for the price and fast AF for Tamron does have worse image quality than the Canon 70-300mm IS L and AF that is only about half the speed.

The MTF curves for the 24-70 II look so stunning that I have a hard time imaging the Tamron matching it but the Tamron might end up being a pretty decent lens all the same and the AF will likely be fast enough for anyone not shooting top level indoor sports with it, my guess. I bet it does better than the old Canon 24-70 for image quality.


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## wickidwombat (Feb 8, 2012)

photophreek said:


> Ricku - I'll tell you how unbelieveable it is........the 24-70 III is probably 10 years away. Don't you think that asking a question about a lens that's a decade away is kinda....you know, silly?
> 
> BTW, why is IS such a deal breaker for everybody when the "charts" say that the lens will out resolve Canon's best zoom ever? IS has nothing to do with the IQ of the lens.
> 
> I think it's time for the Canon fanboys to take some real pictures rather than cleaning/polishing and fondling their lenses and whining about gears that is a decade away


Hey lens fondling is perfectly acceptable in the privacy of your own home... :O


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## psolberg (Feb 8, 2012)

altenae said:


> When Canon started the Megapixel race the only thing you read on forums was:
> 
> Why can't Canon do like Nikon.
> Less MP and clean high ISO images (like d700/d3s)
> ...



agreed. I honestly don't think the majority even needs anything over 12MP as nikon proved by giving something alot of people wanted in return: class leading low noise and huge DR. thousands of great images being made and plenty of huge prints sold. didn't affect anybody in the slightest. certainly their decision to keep low gave them a huge boost BUT pretty much caused all the MP maniacs to come over to canon....so in a way I kind of see why they are begging to get more because 20MP is the new 12MP and this crowd is obsseded with big numbers even if just yesterday they were boasting about their 21MP marvel and how it was "perfect".

likewise, people who shot in really demanding light conditions and used to flawless AF and speed, are now scratching their heads in the nikon camp and looking for canon to stay low in the MP count and speed. Many argued 20MP was too much, it was slow yada yada. All we hear now about the D800. So trust me, complainers will complain and plenty of Nikon guys want to switch to what the hope will be a low MP/high ISO future in canon.

So all the MP chasers and high ISO chasers will have to find a new home as will all the MP chasers. though for them because honestly, things go back and forth between these copanies so they'll be back eventually. smart photographers will just shoot great stuff with what they have and not mind the other brand.

My advise to anybody feeling a bit to much stockholm symdrome (which is all this boils down to) is to simply go back to the old 5DII vs D700 threads in a nikon/canon board and replace 12MP with 21MP and 21MP with 36MP and D700 with 5DmkIII and 5DmkII with D800. There is bound to be a rationale that will justify any choice you want to make and everything will be good again.

Anybody wondering what stockholm syndrom is, is what happens when hostages side with their captors. just think about how silly is to put any emotional stake in camera companies.....


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## briansquibb (Feb 8, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> photophreek said:
> 
> 
> > Ricku - I'll tell you how unbelieveable it is........the 24-70 III is probably 10 years away. Don't you think that asking a question about a lens that's a decade away is kinda....you know, silly?
> ...



8) 8) 8)


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