# This is probably the best camera review I’ve ever watched – Gerald Undone with the Canon EOS R5 and Canon EOS R6



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 5, 2020)

> Gerald Undone has completed his review of both the Canon EOS R5 and Canon EOS R6.
> This is probably the best camera review I’ve ever watched, I didn’t skip forward once.



Continue reading...


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## nikkito (Aug 5, 2020)

well... i skipped like 18 minutes till he actually started talking about photography, which is all this camera is about (even if people keep forgetting it).

www.nicolaszonvi.com


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## RayValdez360 (Aug 5, 2020)

He hit it on the head about what ever is in denial about. As I said before, they marketed the video functions more than anything else without mentioning the limitations. But everyone thinks it is wrong of consumers to be upset or discouraged because Canon didnt say it would record in all modes without overheating. Marketing isnt about 100% transperancy, Canon knew they what they were hyping up. 4k60 shouldnt be overheating in 2020. Most couldnt give a crap about using the 8K right now aside from bragging rights.


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## RayValdez360 (Aug 5, 2020)

nikkito said:


> well... i skipped like 18 minutes till he actually started talking about photography, which is all this camera is about (even if people keep forgetting it).


it's all about photography with a ton of video functions? this should be called Canonphotographyrumors from the comments I be seeing.


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## BeenThere (Aug 5, 2020)

Everybody who plans to buy an R5 or R6 should watch this video. Then, don’t complain when the camera does what Gerald Undone clearly tells you it is going to do.


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## Go Wild (Aug 5, 2020)

Well, worst thing about overheating is the time waiting for the camera to be able to record again. Which is weird as he mention, not even cooling down the camera in direct cold. So the camera structure is cold but times do not recover. This sounds to me like a firmware block. 

From my experience, I will use the R5 intensively for video today. So far only minor clips and camera never overheated. 

Canon just need to be less conservative with times because it seems to me that cameras can record much more time and recover fast. But of course, it´s just my speculation. I am praying that Canon can improve this but I don´t know if they want to do it because they have the new cinema line launch in the end of the month...

Despite all this, the camera is SUPERB and the only downback is those overheating problems and recovering times.


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## Danglin52 (Aug 5, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Agree this is an excellent review, but he should have flipped the topics with still photography first followed by the 85-90% review of the video features and why you should buy/not buy the camera. That is from the perspective of a stills photographer.


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## cfibanez (Aug 5, 2020)

He speaks too fast, and shows image examples for about 10 microseconds. Very irritating. He kept bla, bla, bla about video for 18 minutes. Only the last 5 minutes was (a bit) about still photography. 

I found this review pretty terrible.


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## Danglin52 (Aug 5, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> He hit it on the head about what ever is in denial about. As I said before, they marketed the video functions more than anything else without mentioning the limitations. But everyone thinks it is wrong of consumers to be upset or discouraged because Canon didnt say it would record in all modes without overheating. Marketing isnt about 100% transperancy, Canon knew they what they were hyping up. 4k60 shouldnt be overheating in 2020. Most couldnt give a crap about using the 8K right now aside from bragging rights.


I don't care about the video stuff and would keep the R5 even if it didn't shoot video. I think the bigger issue than overheating is the amount of cool down required before you can continue shooting more video with severe limitations.


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## Kit. (Aug 5, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> it's all about photography with a ton of video functions? this should be called Canonphotographyrumors from the comments I be seeing.


Is it that hard to understand that people on _this_ forum were waiting for the 5DV and/or its mirrorless analog?

_This camera_ is a 5D series camera. For anyone who is interested in 5D series cameras, if should have been no surprise that 5D is a series of _primarily stills_ cameras.


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## tbintb (Aug 5, 2020)

For anyone interested in “stills” photography, skip to the 19:47 mark. Then it gets interesting.


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## tbintb (Aug 5, 2020)

nikkito said:


> well... i skipped like 18 minutes till he actually started talking about photography, which is all this camera is about (even if people keep forgetting it).


Agreed! Since the release of the R5/R6, it’s been like 20-1 video reviews. It almost feels like photography itself is a craft of the past.


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## MiJax (Aug 5, 2020)

I just looked back at the official announcement and they LITERALLY had TWO SENTENCES regarding the video aspects initially. 2...

_"The new full-frame mirrorless camera currently under development will fully leverage the advantages of the EOS R System, helping to produce a camera that features high-speed continuous shooting and 8K video recording.

...From a video perspective, the camera’s 8K video capture capability will prepare videographers for the future of movie-making- capturing 8K footage today allows for even higher-quality 4K productions in addition to the ability to extract high-resolution still images from the video footage."_

In April, they confirmed the video specs, which obviously are video-centric. Then at launch, the bulk of the reviews hinged on the video capabilities, but that's what those people do, lets be real, a number of the paid EOLs still mentioned the overheating. Folks, it is what it is, they gave you the specs and told you it overheats effectively as soon as you could buy it. If you don't like that, its understandable... but that doesn't change that they told you everything upfront. The only thing they could have done differently is mention the limitations in the April video update, but that would suggest that they had given up on trying to mitigate the issue and I'm sure they are still actively looking for ways. 

Rant over...


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## RobbieHat (Aug 5, 2020)

Reading some of these forum posts is like talking to the old man neighbor or relative about the good old days. I am entirely a stills shooter but have watched many of these videos primarily focused on video for a few reasons. 

First, they often highlight features I am interested in and have been waiting for Canon to improve (IBIS, AF, EAF, frame rate, rolling shutter, EVF and display, DR, high ISO handling, etc.). All of these features have been vastly improved to address either the video market or the hybrid market and we photographers are cheering! 

Second, while I shoot no video, the market is moving that way quickly for most. There are entire populations and creatives now making their living on YouTube and they need good, accurate, easy to work with video for their job. Many of those folks were pushed to Sony or other offerings. Canon now has a competitive offering. 

Third, many event photographers are now hybrid shooters. Weddings, event, product sets, etc. all combine photo and video portfolios and they would love the ultimate hybrid camera. These cameras will work for some not for others. That was his main point. Unfortunately many of those shooters still need a two camera setup regardless of brand. 

If video is not your bag, scroll on and quit complaining. 

Bob


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## twoheadedboy (Aug 5, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> Agree this is an excellent review, but he should have flipped the topics with still photography first followed by the 85-90% review of the video features and why you should buy/not buy the camera. That is from the perspective of a stills photographer.



As he stated, HIS focus is on video. His photo review didn't contain nearly the level of detail his video review did. If you're looking for a review of the photo capabilities, there are better reviews (and reviewers) to follow.


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## preppyak (Aug 5, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> Agree this is an excellent review, *but he should have flipped the topics* with still photography first followed by the 85-90% review of the video features and why you should buy/not buy the camera. That is from the perspective of a stills photographer.


You are clearly new to Youtube camera reviews then.


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## ahsanford (Aug 5, 2020)

I don't do the video, but DAMN if that wasn't a detail laden mother lode of information. Very well done.

(Stills folks, just jump to 19:46 to the end for his general thoughts and buying recommendations.)

I have to concur with him. This is a great camera for a ton of people, but man did they botch the marketing of this. They should have led with:

_Hey 5D users! Here's IBIS, a tilty-flippy, 45 x 20, great base ISO DR and some neato video features that use the entire full frame. We will take your money now._​
Instead, very demanding video modes led all discussion of this product's 'big new thing' and a mountain of improvements photographers have been asking for for ages got 2nd or 3rd billing. I think that was a mistake.

- A


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## nikkito (Aug 5, 2020)

tbintb said:


> Agreed! Since the release of the R5/R6, it’s been like 20-1 video reviews. It almost feels like photography itself is a craft of the past.


Cannot agree more, my friend.


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## ahsanford (Aug 5, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> He hit it on the head about what ever is in denial about. As I said before, they marketed the video functions more than anything else without mentioning the limitations. But everyone thinks it is wrong of consumers to be upset or discouraged because Canon didnt say it would record in all modes without overheating. Marketing isnt about 100% transperancy, Canon knew they what they were hyping up. 4k60 shouldnt be overheating in 2020. Most couldnt give a crap about using the 8K right now aside from bragging rights.




Transparency is not the issue here. Canon are pretty honest about that stuff, but even if they weren't, folks would have tested the snot out of these video modes anyway. The issue is that Canon was trying to either claim new business or make a big splash with an industry-first. That approach drove right past an absolute murderer's row of stills upgrades we have been asking for for years. 

Had they led with stills -- or at least put all these systemic upgrades (DPAF II, tilty-flippy, IBIS, sensor quality, etc.) on parity with video in the initial materials, perhaps some luster coming off / reality sticking to their video performance wouldn't drag the camera so publicly right now.

As a stills guy, I'm still probably getting an R5 when we can start traveling again. I'm delighted about the R5. But Canon appears to have made the narrative principally about video, and that decision may have backfired on them.

- A


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## nikkito (Aug 5, 2020)

We should all go buy the rumoured video camera, try to use it for photos and then complain on our very own reviews.

We'll show this video guys. You don't mess with photographers


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## ahsanford (Aug 5, 2020)

Also, couldn't Canon lean into 8K video as a big opportunity for stills shooters?

Wouldn't 8K stills frame grabs still be rather high res? Couldn't you use 8K for very hard to time stills work -- like timing the bat hitting the baseball, capturing lightning strikes, etc.?

I haven't seen all the collaterals. So if this is somethign they did push, please forward thx.

- A


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## twoheadedboy (Aug 5, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Also, couldn't Canon lean into 8K video as a big opportunity for stills shooters?
> 
> Wouldn't 8K stills frame grabs still be rather high res? Couldn't you use 8K for very hard to time stills work -- like timing the bat hitting the baseball, capturing lightning strikes, etc.?
> 
> ...



It has been. Roughly 35 MP, though in 16:9 format. The dynamic range is not quite the same as a true still IIRC. 

Gordon Laing's is the review you're looking for:


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## crazyrunner33 (Aug 5, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> As he stated, HIS focus is on video. His photo review didn't contain nearly the level of detail his video review did. If you're looking for a review of the photo capabilities, there are better reviews (and reviewers) to follow.



Plus, his video review basically said that they are perfect cameras for photography only. He had nothing to pick apart from a still standpoint, even if you compare it against the A7R IV. And despite other reports, he never was able to make it overheat in the stills mode.

For those wondering about the photography review portion, here's the transcript.



> Okay, regarding photography these days, I don't fancy myself much of a photographer. but it wasn't that long ago, my partner and I ran a sports photography business that used canon cameras, and i can tell you this, having either of these cameras then would have been an absolute dream. I literally have nothing to say about these cameras from a photographic capability standpoint. And as someone who naturally finds problems with everything, take that to mean the highest praise the R5 easily trades blows with the sony A7R IV, which II call the best photo camera for the money.
> 
> These canons are fun to use, offer great handling, have terrific lenses, focus reliably, they're just fantastic. When the EOS R came out, you had a decision to make between it and the 5D Mark IV, and in many ways the DSLR was better with these two cameras. There's no decision to make anymore, they're better than the EOS R, and they're better than pretty much every other canon camera say for maybe the 1DX III. But it looks like the R6 might even be using the same sensor as the 1dx Mark III. So you really are getting canon's best here.
> 
> Of course, if you're all about photography and can afford the bigger price tag, the R5 is the better camera, it drives just as fast as the R6, but with more detailed images, a nicer LCD screen, and a higher resolution viewfinder. And a lot of the complaints that i made about video don't carry over when you toggle a photo mode. Now you do have two card slots, now your ibis is very good, I was getting four to five stops of improvement on an 85 millimeter manual lens. And although taking photos affects your record time due to heat, I couldn't get the camera to overheat while in photo mode. So i don't think that'll be an issue even if you're firing high burst for long duration.


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## crazyrunner33 (Aug 5, 2020)

nikkito said:


> We should all go buy the rumoured video camera, try to use it for photos and then complain on our very own reviews.
> 
> We'll show this video guys. You don't mess with photographers



If they market the camera as a great tool for professional photographers and it doesn't perform as such, please, do complain.


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## crazyrunner33 (Aug 5, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> It has been. Roughly 35 MP, though in 16:9 format. The dynamic range is not quite the same as a true still IIRC.
> 
> Gordon Laing's is the review you're looking for:



Plus, you deal with rolling shutter. Still not a bad tool to use if it's needed. Just good to know the limitations. Usually rolling shutter isn't a big deal, but I think for the use of the high speed photography example made, it'd likely not be ideal.


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## festr (Aug 5, 2020)

I'm not sure if the dynamic range was really measured properly - only 11? Really? Because the DR in photo mode is on par with sony and even in 400ISO it is slightly better. In waht exact video mode and what exact ISO did he measure it?


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## Starting out EOS R (Aug 5, 2020)

I've never seen a 'Gerald Undone' review before and wow, this guy is thorough and has verbal diarrhoea. He has to as he packs so much information and statistics in, it's mind blowing.

His review probably mirrors my own initial experiences of the R5. It's great for photographers and occasional video shooters which for me is ideal.

I'll be honest when he gets into the technical details, it's so above my level of knowledge, I get oxygen starvation lol.


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## buxtehude (Aug 5, 2020)

I agree with CanonRumors 100%. He is one of the YouTube reviews I don't have to skip or playback at x1.5 speed. I know everybody has different needs and preferences but for me, he is one of the best camera reviewers in any medium for sure!


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## Bert63 (Aug 5, 2020)

Worst. Review. Ever...

20 minutes of rambling video limitations when reviewing a stills camera...


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## ahsanford (Aug 5, 2020)

festr said:


> I'm not sure if the dynamic range was really measured properly - only 11? Really? Because the DR in photo mode is on par with sony and even in 400ISO it is slightly better. In waht exact video mode and what exact ISO did he measure it?




Video and stills bit depth are quite different, are they not?

But I think you can ID the ISO in his screenshots. It varied a bit, but perhaps he was running every ISO and these were just selections of screen caps.

- A


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## koenkooi (Aug 5, 2020)

festr said:


> I'm not sure if the dynamic range was really measured properly - only 11? Really? Because the DR in photo mode is on par with sony and even in 400ISO it is slightly better. In waht exact video mode and what exact ISO did he measure it?



He measured it using CLOG in the 10-bit 4:2:2 mode, so that's already shoving 11 stops of DR in a 10-bit format. As he says in the review, if Canon would add support for CLOG3 you could stretch it to the 12 stops you'd get when using 12-bit RAW.
Since all e-shutter modes are capped at 12-bit, you won't get more than 12 stops. The recent C300 model has all kinds of hardware and software tricks to get that 15+ stops value that the R6/R5 lacks.


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## rdickert (Aug 5, 2020)

I second the Gordon Laing video if you want a stills review. 

For folks who think the coverage of the R5 is too video-centric, I agree, but realize that Canon came very close to giving serious video people the tools they wanted, and I think it's this "almost" aspect that has led to all the hand-wringing. If Canon had merely put out an iteration on the R5's video, they would have said "meh, not for me" and moved on without all the noise. This points to a market that for Canon is not well-addressed - some class of solo videographers who "should" use cinema cameras and who expect hybrid cameras to keep up with much more expensive rivals (and value-priced Sonys). If Canon were to take this exact camera (all the same components), put it in a body optimized for heat dissipation... that would be an interesting camera, no? I hope Canon watches this review: it gives them very specific advice as to how to make videographers happy. I think Canon wouldn't be so eagerly cannibalizing its own cinema features if it weren't for Sony - I think Sony has done a great service to photographers with that.

One thing that is lost in all the video reviews, though, is that it appears the non-HQ 4K is perfectly usable - yes it's not as good as HQ as amply demonstrated here, but I understand it's better than the R's, and lots of people have been using that successfully. There is also the crop 4K mode which appears to be quite competitive in performance if you can live with a crop. These are unacceptable to video purists, yet a stills-centric shooter may find their needs are met without ever overheating.


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## Bert63 (Aug 5, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> Agree this is an excellent review, but he should have flipped the topics with still photography first followed by the 85-90% review of the video features and why you should buy/not buy the camera. That is from the perspective of a stills photographer.



He should have opened the review with the statement that ”the following video will be of no interest to anyone who buys this camera for its primary purpose...”

I want my 23 minutes back.

The only reason I watched him at all was because of the headline ”best camera review ever....”

Wow.


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## Jack Douglas (Aug 5, 2020)

CR provides a snapshot of the psychology of humans in our world at this time - rather intriguing. Not the best use of my time but here I am reading yet another thread; must be addiction. I am convinced that this camera is going to do very well based on all the hate.

Jack


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## Bert63 (Aug 5, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Also, couldn't Canon lean into 8K video as a big opportunity for stills shooters?
> 
> Wouldn't 8K stills frame grabs still be rather high res? Couldn't you use 8K for very hard to time stills work -- like timing the bat hitting the baseball, capturing lightning strikes, etc.?
> 
> ...



I read a very interesting review of this capability yesterday.


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## unfocused (Aug 5, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> ...The issue is that Canon was trying to either claim new business or make a big splash with an industry-first. That approach drove right past an absolute murderer's row of stills upgrades we have been asking for for years.
> 
> Had they led with stills -- or at least put all these systemic upgrades (DPAF II, tilty-flippy, IBIS, sensor quality, etc.) on parity with video in the initial materials, perhaps some luster coming off / reality sticking to their video performance wouldn't drag the camera so publicly right now...
> 
> ... Canon appears to have made the narrative principally about video, and that decision may have backfired on them.



I generally agree. But, I have a problem with *any* company that offers *any* feature that isn't ready for prime time. I think it was more than a bad marketing decision. I think it was a bad engineering and design decision. No matter how many disclaimers you offer, it's no substitute for having a product that works. If they couldn't make these ridiculously high resolution and frame rate modes work, they should have just left them off. 

My perspective is different that the majority on this forum, but I see this as a case where they let the engineers and designers drive the marketing. "Ooh lookey what we can design! Never mind that it's non-functional in the real world, people should just adapt." No. You should engineer the product to work or not include the feature.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Aug 5, 2020)

So much of that review is on the irrelevant video functions. Youtubers almost always entirely focus on how well a stills camera does in video.


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## marathonman (Aug 5, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I generally agree. But, I have a problem with *any* company that offers *any* feature that isn't ready for prime time.



I guess you missed the last 10 years where Canon have been chastised for playing it safe, not innovating enough and protecting other products in their line-up. The cardinal sin has also been committed by not giving the YouTube Vloggers what they demanded!


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## Nelu (Aug 5, 2020)

nikkito said:


> well... i skipped like 18 minutes till he actually started talking about photography, which is all this camera is about (even if people keep forgetting it).
> 
> www.nicolaszonvi.com


Same here, the first half was all about video, so I couldn't care less about it.


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## Jack Douglas (Aug 5, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I generally agree. But, I have a problem with *any* company that offers *any* feature that isn't ready for prime time. I think it was more than a bad marketing decision. I think it was a bad engineering and design decision. No matter how many disclaimers you offer, it's no substitute for having a product that works. If they couldn't make these ridiculously high resolution and frame rate modes work, they should have just left them off.
> 
> My perspective is different that the majority on this forum, but I see this as a case where they let the engineers and designers drive the marketing. "Ooh lookey what we can design! Never mind that it's non-functional in the real world, people should just adapt." No. You should engineer the product to work or not include the feature.


Why leave off something that can be used to great advantage within a certain realm. A brief 8k pan and zoom for 4k could be very impressive and useful. It gives a taste of the future. I would never leave something like this off but that's just my way of viewing life. The massive data associated with 8k tells me that no average Joe would ever be recording longer clips anyway, so why complain? I think most of the hate is based on envy.

Jack


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## quilatoo (Aug 5, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> Why leave off something that can be used to great advantage within a certain realm. A brief 8k pan and zoom for 4k could be very impressive and useful. It gives a taste of the future. I would never leave something like this off but that's just my way of viewing life. The massive data associated with 8k tells me that no average Joe would ever be recording longer clips anyway, so why complain? I think most of the hate is based on envy.
> 
> Jack


That would be impressive if it’s something that people can actually take advantage of when the camera has been used for other things like stills shooting or standard video recording. There are plenty of indications to suggest you just can’t and have to wait for the camera to cool down while it’s turned off.


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## kten (Aug 5, 2020)

Followed him for a while and is one of the few youtubers who are accurate and understand their stuff, but I have interest in video too. What many people here seem to be missing is he is a videographer, he never pretends he isn't. If you want him to make reviews tailored to YOUR use then you'd be better served renting and self assess, or at least watching someone who works primarily stills never mind same style of stills. If you're a studio tabletop product guy then expecting an outdoor sports photographer to cover ONLY what you want is a bit entitled is it not? This camera is marketed as videocentric hybrid and that is the exact reaso nwhy he reviews it because that is what most of HIS subs sre interested in.


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## markphoto (Aug 5, 2020)

Amen. If you don’t care about video, skip to 19:48 where he starts talking about photography. On second thought, it’s not that informative on the topic of photography. Just skip it. 



Danglin52 said:


> Agree this is an excellent review, but he should have flipped the topics with still photography first followed by the 85-90% review of the video features and why you should buy/not buy the camera. That is from the perspective of a stills photographer.


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## Bert63 (Aug 5, 2020)

Nelu said:


> Same here, the first half was all about video, so I couldn't care less about it.



The first half? HALF? 

He mentioned photography in passing at the 20 minute mark of a 23 minute diatribe about video.

Yuk. It’s hard for me to watch this guy to begin with, but I thought he was actually going to review the camera.


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## Jack Douglas (Aug 5, 2020)

quilatoo said:


> That would be impressive if it’s something that people can actually take advantage of when the camera has been used for other things like stills shooting or standard video recording. There are plenty of indications to suggest you just can’t and have to wait for the camera to cool down while it’s turned off.


You mean I won't be able to do 10 seconds of 8K without losing my camera for photography for one hour - I find this hard to believe.

Jack


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## Nelu (Aug 5, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> The first half? HALF?
> 
> He mentioned photography in passing at the 20 minute mark of a 23 minute diatribe about video.
> 
> Yuk. It’s hard for me to watch this guy to begin with, but I thought he was actually going to review the camera.


I guess I was being generous 
This is an excellent review for stills photographers, especially for wildlife and BIF crew:
Canon R5 - Initial Thoughts


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## quilatoo (Aug 5, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> You mean I won't be able to do 10 seconds of 8K without losing my camera for photography for one hour - I find this hard to believe.
> 
> Jack


Other way round. If you’re shooting stills for an hour you’re probably not going to be able to get a lot of time out of the higher modes until it cools down a bit.


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## bbasiaga (Aug 5, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Also, couldn't Canon lean into 8K video as a big opportunity for stills shooters?
> 
> Wouldn't 8K stills frame grabs still be rather high res? Couldn't you use 8K for very hard to time stills work -- like timing the bat hitting the baseball, capturing lightning strikes, etc.?
> 
> ...



Capturing lightning is typically done by adjusting ISO as low as possible and shutter speed as long as possible (without blowing out the foreground and sky), and then aperture to control how bright the lightning shows up. Its similar to 'flash painting', only you can't control the brightness of the flash or the timing of it. . It actually works better than video, because if your shutter is open for 8 seconds you get all the lighting that occurs in that time, where as in a video it would be spread out over say 30 frames per second for 8 seconds or 240 frames. Just last month I was on a camping trip and got several hours of lighting shots going. It was quite fun and may be my new favorite thing to try in photography. 

As far as i know - and I'm not even a novice at this so I may be wrong - but getting the kind of still image you're thinking of on the baseball bat from a video may be difficult. There are rolling shutter effects, as well as typical video shutter speeds aren't super great at freezing action from a frame grab perspective. 

-Brian


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## Baron_Karza (Aug 5, 2020)

nikkito said:


> well... i skipped like 18 minutes till he actually started talking about photography, which is all this camera is about (even if people keep forgetting it).
> 
> www.nicolaszonvi.com



Canon forgot to, and that's why they put 8K into a stills camera - the most demanding type of video in Any still camera ever.


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## Bert63 (Aug 5, 2020)

Nelu said:


> I guess I was being generous
> This is an excellent review for stills photographers, especially for wildlife and BIF crew:
> Canon R5 - Initial Thoughts




Thank you very much - I'm looking at it now!


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## WriteLight (Aug 5, 2020)

Here you go, his summary of the R5 for photography: It's perfect. No complaints. 
Saved you 23 minutes.


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## Bdbtoys (Aug 5, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> Everybody who plans to buy an R5 or R6 should watch this video. Then, don’t complain when the camera does what Gerald Undone clearly tells you it is going to do.



This was my exact thought's too.

I thought the video review was a bit drawn out on the video side and the stills just glanced over. But after thinking about it more... it gives all the details that would tip a person one way or another. Personally, this is the number one review I would recommend everyone that has video (at least somewhat) in mind to watch it so that they know what they are getting and don't complain about it later.


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## mppix (Aug 5, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Is it that hard to understand that people on _this_ forum were waiting for the 5DV and/or its mirrorless analog?
> 
> _This camera_ is a 5D series camera. For anyone who is interested in 5D series cameras, if should have been no surprise that 5D is a series of _primarily stills_ cameras.



Yes and no. Video is growing a lot faster than photography, with the latter shifting more and more to smartphones. You can become a successful instagram person with an iphone - you'll have a much harder time time trying to stream video. Also many paid photography assignments hane a video component nowadays.
Camera brands need to invest in video to stay relevant so Sony, Fuji, Panasonic, Nikon, Canon and Leica (Leica !?!) are investing in it. Those doing well have a much better time, see Panasonic vs. Olympus.


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## Jack Douglas (Aug 5, 2020)

quilatoo said:


> Other way round. If you’re shooting stills for an hour you’re probably not going to be able to get a lot of time out of the higher modes until it cools down a bit.


Not even a very useful 10 second clip? How many stills do you shoot in one hour? Ten thousand? If I'm shooting wildlife I might have a couple hundred or maybe none and my guess is I'd still be able to do a 10 second clip in 8K - no?

Jack


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## Stig Nygaard (Aug 5, 2020)

Me too a still photographer. Most uninteresting review I remember having watched. No sorry, I lie. I didn't watch it in full. 1/3rd way through I quickly skipped forward in steps looking for something interesting, but found nothing.
I'm sure it was an interesting review for videographers, but for most I don't think it had much value.
If it was labeled a review of video-functionalities I would have had no complains (and probably not watched it either).

And I'm not grumpy. I just think it is funny/weird to call it "best camera review I’ve ever watched"


----------



## Bert63 (Aug 5, 2020)

quilatoo said:


> Other way round. If you’re shooting stills for an hour you’re probably not going to be able to get a lot of time out of the higher modes until it cools down a bit.




Define "shooting stills for an hour...." Wildlife shooters may take 100 pictures in an hour or zero. A wedding photographer is going to shoot what - a couple of thousand?


----------



## LensFungus (Aug 5, 2020)

I only trust the camera reviews of 'Camera Conspiracies'.


Loser.


----------



## Bert63 (Aug 5, 2020)

kten said:


> This camera is marketed as videocentric hybrid



Strange. That wasn't my takeaway from the marketing at all. I saw a great stills shooter with video capability that I really didn't care much about.


----------



## quilatoo (Aug 5, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> Not even a very useful 10 second clip? How many stills do you shoot in one hour? Ten thousand? If I'm shooting wildlife I might have a couple hundred or maybe none and my guess is I'd still be able to do a 10 second clip in 8K - no?
> 
> Jack


Well the video everyone here seems to be angrily saying is a waste of time says this: "This problem persists beyond just internal recording. If you record externally to an Atamos you'll extend your time by 50% but it will still shut down due to overheating, even if you turn on every single power saving feature on the camera. And the same is even true if you're just taking pictures with the camera. *If you like to mix some photo and video, make sure you do the video first because after you've shot photos for about an hour you'll likely be unable to shoot any of the oversampled or high-frame rate video because the camera builds up heat just from being on. *[...]"

He doesn't mention how intensive that shooting is, no, but for it to cool down requires the camera to be turned off - he mentions this in the second Overheat portion of the video.



Bert63 said:


> Define "shooting stills for an hour...."


I mean, if we're having to sit here and define how intensive our photography sessions are to determine what sits within the "certain realm" of being able to use the higher end features in even a casual manner, it suggests there's a problem with the implementation!

I'd rather the only thing I have to worry about with intensive photography was how much it might drain the battery, rather than "am I even going to be able to use 8K if I wanted to?".

Thankfully, no I probably won't want to - it's still rubbish though, and taking umbrage at people pointing that out doesn't ultimately change that.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 5, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> He should have opened the review with the statement that ”the following video will be of no interest to anyone who buys this camera for its primary purpose...”
> 
> I want my 23 minutes back.
> 
> ...



wah wah waahhhhhhhh


----------



## The3o5FlyGuy (Aug 5, 2020)

I felt like being a strictly video first camera guy he, in other videos more than this one, has been biased towards video features. While I would admit the R5 and the R6 are not workhorse cinema cameras, I feel like both are better than the Sony a7s III. The sony asks users to sacrifice too much photography features for video features that are not that much better in terms of quality and quality alone than both the R5 and the R6's video features. There are a lot of other things that make the sony a great video camera but the quality alone isn't that much better than the R5 and R6. In fact, both of the Canon’s oversampled 4k modes exceed the Sonys 4k mode in quality, but the canons have a huge problem with overheating, which of course has been said over and over again. And its more than fair, the over heating itself isn’t just an issue, it's the ridiculous cool downtime. But comparing standard 4k modes of both cameras, the Sony does better because it doesn’t have to throw away as much information as the canons because it’s the sensor is lower resolution. Which of course makes it an amazing low light camera and gives it excellent video quality, but makes it tough to recommend. While the low light beats the canon by a country mile, I feel like the standard 4k doesn’t beat it by that much. But the canon is head and shoulders above it on the photography side. It shoots faster, has more resolution, and autofocus is better. Even the eye autofocus is as good if not better than Sony’s. At the price point of $3500, it's hard to recommend Sony to anyone that has an interest in shooting both stills and video, especially if you want to post pictures anywhere else than IG. But again, it's a great video camera with great video quality, and other amazing bells and whistles that reinforce it as a video-first camera, but if it were priced at 2800 to 3000 it would be tougher to put this over the R5, but I still think in some ways both canons are better.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 5, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> He should have opened the review with the statement that ”the following video will be of no interest to anyone who buys this camera for its primary purpose...”
> 
> *I want my 23 minutes back.*
> 
> ...



You've spent more than 10X that amount here on CR complaining about people complaining about the ONLY Stills cameras in the WORLD that does 8K VIDEE-OHHHHH. LOL!


----------



## Jack Douglas (Aug 5, 2020)

If you're thinking wildlife shooting this camera is more than impressive and the reviews are showing it. This guy's delivery is kind of boring but the substance is there and it is well worth viewing so I'm repeating the link. The haters are going to be sulking soon. Eye AF better than the A9II which was/is his go to camera.






Jack


----------



## Bert63 (Aug 5, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> You've spent more than 10X that amount here on CR complaining about people complaining about the ONLY Stills cameras in the WORLD that does 8K VIDEE-OHHHHH. LOL!



Yawn. <clicks ignore>


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 5, 2020)

marathonman said:


> I guess you missed the last 10 years where Canon have been chastised for playing it safe, not innovating enough and protecting other products in their line-up. The cardinal sin has also been committed by not giving the YouTube Vloggers what they demanded!



Yes, I missed that too. 

Please point me to where any V-Logger in the last 10 years has said: "Canon, just give us feature X. I don't care if it overheats in Z minutes"


----------



## Jack Douglas (Aug 5, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Yawn. <clicks ignore>


The Baron is a youngster give him a break ... or just ignore.

Jack


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 5, 2020)

Nelu said:


> Same here, the first half was all about video, so I couldn't care less about it.



Well then you and others completely missed out the point of his video and skipped over the main words in the video title: "*TERRIBLE Marketing"*


----------



## sal7777 (Aug 5, 2020)

All I know is that people will eventually find that one thing to complain about. We are a world of complainers — I’m even complaining about those who complain.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 5, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> The Baron is a youngster give him a break ... or just ignore.
> 
> Jack



LOL! Butthurts can't handle the truth. Triggered BIG TIME! LOL!!


----------



## Fast351 (Aug 5, 2020)

I'm not a video guy so it doesn't really matter much to me, but I would be interested in hearing theories about this:







Why does the R6 have overheating time limits on the modes that the R5 does not? (Specifically looking at 4K24).. With the significantly smaller number of megapixels and same processor I would expect the run time to be longer. 

The only theories I can come up with (and these are kind of supported by what others have seen):

1) The magnesium body on the R5 is an integral part of the cooling process.
2) The reformatting of raw sensor data is more computationally extensive from a 20MP sensor than a 45MP one. Maybe the aspect ratios are not good for video on the R6.

Any comments?


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 5, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> The first half? HALF?
> 
> He mentioned photography in passing at the 20 minute mark of a 23 minute diatribe about video.
> 
> Yuk. It’s hard for me to watch this guy to begin with, but I thought he was actually going to review the camera.


why don't you just ignore him? LOL


----------



## Bert63 (Aug 5, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> or just ignore.
> 
> Jack



Yes. Done.


----------



## Nelu (Aug 5, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> If you're thinking wildlife shooting this camera is more than impressive and the reviews are showing it. This guy's delivery is kind of boring but the substance is there and it is well worth viewing so I'm repeating the link. The haters are going to be sulking soon. Eye AF better than the A9II which was/is his go to camera.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know, I just posted that a few replies back  

Thanks, Jack!


----------



## Pixel (Aug 5, 2020)

What is it about Canadians and saying eeee-ahhhhhsss?


----------



## ahsanford (Aug 5, 2020)

Pixel said:


> What is it about Canadians and saying eeee-ahhhhhsss?




Brits say nick-on, don't they? Doesn't really bother me.

- A


----------



## Jack Douglas (Aug 5, 2020)

Nelu said:


> I know, I just posted that a few replies back
> 
> Thanks, Jack!


I wasn't trying to one-up you, just promoting it.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Aug 5, 2020)

Pixel said:


> What is it about Canadians and saying eeee-ahhhhhsss?


Like Americans saying Zeeeeeeebra - very grating.

Jack


----------



## unfocused (Aug 5, 2020)

marathonman said:


> I guess you missed the last 10 years where Canon have been chastised for playing it safe, not innovating enough and protecting other products in their line-up. The cardinal sin has also been committed by not giving the YouTube Vloggers what they demanded!


And yet, this "playing it safe" led them to dominate the market.


----------



## Juangrande (Aug 5, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> Everybody who plans to buy an R5 or R6 should watch this video. Then, don’t complain when the camera does what Gerald Undone clearly tells you it is going to do.


What? Take great photos. I’ve honestly never even looked at the video menus on my cameras let alone shot even one second of video. Not everyone cares about video. Keep your peanut butter out of my chocolate! Does every camera body have to be a Reese’s peanut butter cup?


----------



## Dragon (Aug 5, 2020)

Useful testing, but it doesn't correlate that well with DPRs testing, particularly with respect to cool down times. The review is 95% about video (the very thing he says you shouldn't buy the camera for and then his conclusions are stupidly binary. E.g. "If you need 8k, don't buy this camera". That is a stupid remark in that it doesn't qualify how you might use it for 8k and ignores the fact that it is only way to get to 8k short of spending $100k on a Red. It seems like most utubers are more interested in being influencers that informers. So far, Gordon Laing's review at Camera Labs is way the best.


----------



## Colorado (Aug 5, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I generally agree. But, I have a problem with *any* company that offers *any* feature that isn't ready for prime time. I think it was more than a bad marketing decision. I think it was a bad engineering and design decision. No matter how many disclaimers you offer, it's no substitute for having a product that works. If they couldn't make these ridiculously high resolution and frame rate modes work, they should have just left them off.
> 
> My perspective is different that the majority on this forum, but I see this as a case where they let the engineers and designers drive the marketing. "Ooh lookey what we can design! Never mind that it's non-functional in the real world, people should just adapt." No. You should engineer the product to work or not include the feature.


Well first off the features do work. One of my hobby-focused environments is high-speed dog sports. I can guarantee you once I somehow get my hands on an R5 that I'll be playing around with 8K, 4K120, and 4KHQ video though mostly I will be taking stills. Video length (dogs move fast for an exercise then it is over) is always less than 1 minute. I'm confident I'll be able to take these videos without overheating issues. And worse case if It does I drop down to 4K30. There are other definitions for the term "work" other than "I filmed a full length movie in the sahara desert".

But consider if Canon did what you suggested. They didn't offer any video mode other than 4k30. How many MP would the camera have? The 45MP number was clearly chosen because it matches what is needed for 8K video. With that constraint gone Canon might have gone with the 50+ MP--something matching the 5Ds for resolution. In either case the 4K30 would involve line skipping and the YouTube videos would all be about how Canon's video quality sucks compared to Sony's. So would they drop the MP down to 12 and essentially make a video camera?

People always argue that stills cameras get video features "for free" but that really isn't the case. Once you decide on a high MP sensor for stills then video is either compromised by line skipping or it is cutting edge (8K / 4KHQ) and there are heat issues. Canon had to choose between a 45MP stills marvel that either did "crappy" (compared to the competition) video or both unlimited "crappy" video and heat limited best-in-class video. I don't think it is hard to understand why they went with the latter.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 5, 2020)

Colorado said:


> People always argue that stills cameras get video features "for free" but that really isn't the case. Once you decide on a high MP sensor for stills then video is either compromised by line skipping or it is cutting edge (8K / 4KHQ) and there are heat issues. Canon had to choose between a 45MP stills marvel that either did "crappy" (compared to the competition) video or both unlimited "crappy" video and heat limited best-in-class video. I don't think it is hard to understand why they went with the latter.



Actually, you do have unlimited "crappy" video, in 4K and 1080p, so you actually got both. And Unlimited stills. But using them will (apparently) limit the heat limited best-in-class video as much as the best in class video limits itself


----------



## ahsanford (Aug 5, 2020)

Colorado said:


> But consider if Canon did what you suggested. They didn't offer any video mode other than 4k30. How many MP would the camera have? The 45MP number was clearly chosen because it matches what is needed for 8K video.




22x6
30x7
_*45x20*_

Canon was never on a trajectory to give us a 45 MP 5D5, let alone one that pushes 20 fps. But the desire to put 8K on the spec sheet -- something I, a stills shooter, _care absolutely nothing about_ -- has given this 5-series owner a high detail / high throughput camera that I've wanted for many years.

So... thanks, Big Video. A win's a win and I will take it.

- A


----------



## Bert63 (Aug 5, 2020)

Dragon said:


> So far, Gordon Laing's review at Camera Labs is way the best.




Yes.


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Aug 5, 2020)

Fast351 said:


> I'm not a video guy so it doesn't really matter much to me, but I would be interested in hearing theories about this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Compare the R6's 4K24p times record times to the R5's HQ 4K24p times for the answer. The R6 doesn't have to oversample as many pixels, like you noted in your response. The reason the R5 can shoot a low quality 4K and the R6 cannot is because the R5 can line skip and read 1:1 on pixels for 4K. The R6 doesn't have the ability to line skip.

Your other theories might be correct for why it overheats more when cropped vs the R5.


----------



## marathonman (Aug 5, 2020)

unfocused said:


> And yet, this "playing it safe" led them to dominate the market.


Agree. And R5 is phenomenal. Love it. What a time to be alive with so many great options out there at almost every budget point....


----------



## BakaBokeh (Aug 5, 2020)

I think I figured out what bothers me the most. It's the people who throw their hands up in the air and whine that the R5 is useless.

Even before watching Gerald's Video, I was able to figure out the R5's limitations and already went into the mode of thinking, "how can I make it work with these limitations?". Thanks in part to him for publishing his early test results as well as others who reported their results, and because Canon told us about overheat and recovery times with a chart.

But if you have a beef with this camera because you can't use the best features in unlimited quantities, let me ask you, what did you use before? An EOS R?.... in 1080P?... or it's lower quality, cropped 4K? Did you use a 5DmkIV which was similar but with Motion JPEG? Did you shoot with any Sony Cameras prior to the A7SIII, who granted have better recovery times, but also had overheating issues? Did you shoot with a Panasonic, which had untrustworthy autofocus, and you had to work harder in post to get more pleasing colors? On what camera did you film 4K120? FHD120 for that matter... with working AutoFocus? If you used Canon, the best you had was noisy, soft 720p with manual focus only.

The R5 can shoot better quality 'normal' mode 4K24/30 with no heat issues. You can attach an Atomos external recorder 4K60 with no heat issues. Why does that not work for you? 

Sure it'd be nice to use full frame oversampled 4KHQ, 8K, 4K120 without any restraints, but at the moment it's not feasible. Why not examine what the limitations and caveats are and determine how you can work with them, instead of crying and whining that the camera is unusable? I could tell you, fine... go use another camera brand. But guess what, there is no other camera out there that can do what the R5 can do. You have to wait until September for the A7SIII to release to get some of these features, and even then you'd be compromising the stills side... a lot... as well as have inferior IBIS, inability to use Animal AF in video, and obviously not have the option to shoot in 8K. And guess what, if superior image quality is important to you, the 4K in that camera is not the best. Sony's own A7RIV can produce better 4K.

And before any of you accuse me of being a Canon apologist, I'm not. I even say that Canon has a duty to address legitimate Consumer issues. 

My biggest point is, have some perspective. What did you use before? What are we getting now? If all you can do is throw your hands in the air, utterly defeated so you can't create any content, I have no sympathy for you. You look like tantrum throwing entitled brats. I have much more of an affinity for people who remain positive, figure out what they have to work with, and just create. If you have complaints, that's fine. Don't just scream the camera is worthless, how is that going to help anything? Itemize what the issues are for you and provide that feedback to Canon. Maybe they can fix things with firmware, if not, maybe they can take that feedback in designing future cameras?

Sigh. This is about Cameras. I'm gonna quit now before this turns into a Ted Talk about how to go through adversities in life by overcoming limitations instead of being an unproductive whiny complainer.

What I really need is for my R5 to arrive so I can get off the damn internet.


----------



## Southstorm (Aug 5, 2020)

Has anybody seen this from the Canon Rumors Discord discussion?


_*So externally, if you leave the cards out, you aren't met with an overheating countdown timer, and essentially can record indefinitely. When cards are in the camera, the countdown timer continues to tick. This leads me to believe there's some type of buffer going on that builds up heat triggering overheating. This isn't the case without cards in the camera.(edited)*_


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 5, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> 22x6
> 30x7
> _*45x20*_
> 
> ...


I disagree, the α7R IV has 61mp, the Nikon Z7 has 45.7mp. The R5 has the going rate for the comparable model from other manufacturers none of whom have got 8k at all.


----------



## Colorado (Aug 5, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Actually, you do have unlimited "crappy" video, in 4K and 1080p, so you actually got both. And Unlimited stills. But using them will (apparently) limit the heat limited best-in-class video as much as the best in class video limits itself


Aye completely agree. That's why I said the later option was both. And I'm fine with it. Given the alternatives the R5 is almost my ideal camera--high MP stills with great DR and colors with great features like IBIS, animal eye AF. Video is either offered no where else (8K, 4KHQ) or is a still quite respectable 4K and 1080 if things get too hot.

About the only thing I am worried about is switching from my 1DX. I'm sort of use to the built-like-a-tank qualities of a 1-series body. I know a 5-series (mirrorless or SLR) is not the same beast. But honestly as an amateur I don't know if I could continue to justify 1-series cameras even when the inevitable R1 is released.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 5, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> 4k60 shouldnt be overheating in 2020. Most couldnt give a crap about using the 8K right now aside from bragging rights.



I could live with the 4k60 record limits IF THE THING WOULD JUST COOL OFF AFTERWARDS. Seriously Canon, leave the Corning home insulation out of the R5 mark II.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 5, 2020)

festr said:


> I'm not sure if the dynamic range was really measured properly - only 11? Really? Because the DR in photo mode is on par with sony and even in 400ISO it is slightly better. In waht exact video mode and what exact ISO did he measure it?



As he stated the limitation is C-log, not the sensor.


----------



## reefroamer (Aug 5, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I generally agree. But, I have a problem with *any* company that offers *any* feature that isn't ready for prime time. I think it was more than a bad marketing decision. I think it was a bad engineering and design decision. No matter how many disclaimers you offer, it's no substitute for having a product that works. If they couldn't make these ridiculously high resolution and frame rate modes work, they should have just left them off.
> 
> My perspective is different that the majority on this forum, but I see this as a case where they let the engineers and designers drive the marketing. "Ooh lookey what we can design! Never mind that it's non-functional in the real world, people should just adapt." No. You should engineer the product to work or not include the feature.


Leaving off the “ridiculously high resolution and frame rate modes” could be done with a firmware downgrade. Easy enough.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 5, 2020)

Southstorm said:


> Has anybody seen this from the Canon Rumors Discord discussion?
> 
> _*So externally, if you leave the cards out, you aren't met with an overheating countdown timer, and essentially can record indefinitely. When cards are in the camera, the countdown timer continues to tick. This leads me to believe there's some type of buffer going on that builds up heat triggering overheating. This isn't the case without cards in the camera.(edited)*_



Now that is interesting. Would love to see the same tests with an R6. Might narrow it down to a single component, and help people get better performance with an external recorder.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 5, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> He hit it on the head about what ever is in denial about. As I said before, they marketed the video functions more than anything else without mentioning the limitations. But everyone thinks it is wrong of consumers to be upset or discouraged because Canon didnt say it would record in all modes without overheating. Marketing isnt about 100% transperancy, Canon knew they what they were hyping up. 4k60 shouldnt be overheating in 2020. Most couldnt give a crap about using the 8K right now aside from bragging rights.


Sitting at a desk talking isn't a real live review. If that's good enough for you, good for ya.. But it isn't good enough for me. Many want more than a lecture. There are countless other reviewers that know how to use a thermometer. That's why Mr. Undone had to do a redo. Simply looking at an icon without a clue has to the reason you got that icon in the first place is kinda lazy.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 5, 2020)

Mr Undone had to go back and do a redo since there are other photogs actually using the camera in real life situations and some actually using a thermometer also. Mr Undone has yet to put a thermometer on the camera read temps. Anyone can look at threshold icons after they've passed the operating temps. Which by the way is in the manual 0-104 F.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 5, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> Leaving off the “ridiculously high resolution and frame rate modes” could be done with a firmware downgrade. Easy enough.


Nope. Merely reading ones manual would be enough. It says operating temperature is 0-104 F. The overheat icons come on after 104 F is reached. Being smart enough not to let your device exceed operating temps is sufficient. I would never install that update if it took away my resolutions and frame rates that i PAID FOR because some people can't read a manual.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 5, 2020)

nikkito said:


> well... i skipped like 18 minutes till he actually started talking about photography, which is all this camera is about (even if people keep forgetting it).
> 
> www.nicolaszonvi.com


Exactly. And the inability of many to read an operating manual


----------



## jam05 (Aug 5, 2020)

Some people like to be lectured to and get impressed. Not me. Show me the device operating in the environment using the proper guidelines in the manual. Not sitting on a tripod in the office. Lecture time is over. Thousands of owners have cameras in hand already.


----------



## Justhandguns (Aug 5, 2020)

Southstorm said:


> Has anybody seen this from the Canon Rumors Discord discussion?
> 
> 
> _*So externally, if you leave the cards out, you aren't met with an overheating countdown timer, and essentially can record indefinitely. When cards are in the camera, the countdown timer continues to tick. This leads me to believe there's some type of buffer going on that builds up heat triggering overheating. This isn't the case without cards in the camera.(edited)*_



I have always been wondering, for a mirrorless camera, if you keep the camera on for continuous shooting, the sensor is supposedly to be on all the time as in video capturing, does that mean it will also over heat as well? Or is it just because the continue video processing generate a lot more heat than simply keeping the sensor on for still shooting?

P.S. I won't trust all these videoographers doing Youtube and video-castings as most of them are actually making videos for a living. Most people who get the R5/R6 are using them for stills and short videos. Why bother?


----------



## Whowe (Aug 5, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Nope. Merely reading ones manual would be enough. It says operating temperature is 0-104 F. The overheat icons come on after 104 F is reached. Being smart enough not to let your device exceed operating temps is sufficient. I would never install that update if it took away my resolutions and frame rates that i PAID FOR because some people can't read a manual.


I read that as stating the camera should only be operated at an environmental temp up to 104°F. (i.e. air temperature) I do not believe this is the actual internal thermal warning /shut down temperature.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 5, 2020)

Don't want the overheat icon to be displayed, keep the unit within the operating tempp. Don't know what it is? Read your manual. If you need to go beyond 10 minutes per clip, get a thermometer and be sure to power off the device prior to reaching the operating limits. Easy Peasy.


----------



## Twinix (Aug 5, 2020)

Southstorm said:


> Has anybody seen this from the Canon Rumors Discord discussion?
> 
> 
> _*So externally, if you leave the cards out, you aren't met with an overheating countdown timer, and essentially can record indefinitely. When cards are in the camera, the countdown timer continues to tick. This leads me to believe there's some type of buffer going on that builds up heat triggering overheating. This isn't the case without cards in the camera.(edited)*_


Really interesting. So with the ATEM mini pro ISO or external recorder you can livstream or record as long as you want? With the BM ATEM pro mini ISO you can record each input too..


----------



## Whowe (Aug 5, 2020)

Justhandguns said:


> I have always been wondering, for a mirrorless camera, if you keep the camera on for continuous shooting, the sensor is supposedly to be on all the time as in video capturing, does that mean it will also over heat as well? Or is it just because the continue video processing generate a lot more heat than simply keeping the sensor on for still shooting?
> 
> P.S. I won't trust all these videoographers doing Youtube and video-castings as most of them are actually making videos for a living. Most people who get the R5/R6 are using them for stills and short videos. Why bother?


I believe operating the camera on "ON" will generate some heat since the sensor and processor are operating, but that will NOT generate a heat warning or shut down. But since it does heat the camera some, it can shorten the time the camera takes to reach the warning and shut down temperatures.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 5, 2020)

Justhandguns said:


> I have always been wondering, for a mirrorless camera, if you keep the camera on for continuous shooting, the sensor is supposedly to be on all the time as in video capturing, does that mean it will also over heat as well? Or is it just because the continue video processing generate a lot more heat than simply keeping the sensor on for still shooting?
> 
> P.S. I won't trust all these videoographers doing Youtube and video-castings as most of them are actually making videos for a living. Most people who get the R5/R6 are using them for stills and short videos. Why bother?





Justhandguns said:


> I have always been wondering, for a mirrorless camera, if you keep the camera on for continuous shooting, the sensor is supposedly to be on all the time as in video capturing, does that mean it will also over heat as well? Or is it just because the continue video processing generate a lot more heat than simply keeping the sensor on for still shooting?
> 
> P.S. I won't trust all these videoographers doing Youtube and video-castings as most of them are actually making videos for a living. Most people who get the R5/R6 are using them for stills and short videos. Why bother?





Justhandguns said:


> I have always been wondering, for a mirrorless camera, if you keep the camera on for continuous shooting, the sensor is supposedly to be on all the time as in video capturing, does that mean it will also over heat as well? Or is it just because the continue video processing generate a lot more heat than simply keeping the sensor on for still shooting?
> 
> P.S. I won't trust all these videoographers doing Youtube and video-castings as most of them are actually making videos for a living. Most people who get the R5/R6 are using them for stills and short videos. Why bother?


The chart needs to be updated with equipment temps. The number would vary with different camera temperature due to the environment. Both Canon and Sony state this.


----------



## BakaBokeh (Aug 5, 2020)

Southstorm said:


> Has anybody seen this from the Canon Rumors Discord discussion?
> 
> 
> _*So externally, if you leave the cards out, you aren't met with an overheating countdown timer, and essentially can record indefinitely. When cards are in the camera, the countdown timer continues to tick. This leads me to believe there's some type of buffer going on that builds up heat triggering overheating. This isn't the case without cards in the camera.(edited)*_


Very interesting if true. More reason to get an external recorder if the 4KHQ won't overheat.


----------



## PureClassA (Aug 5, 2020)

Southstorm said:


> Has anybody seen this from the Canon Rumors Discord discussion?
> 
> 
> _*So externally, if you leave the cards out, you aren't met with an overheating countdown timer, and essentially can record indefinitely. When cards are in the camera, the countdown timer continues to tick. This leads me to believe there's some type of buffer going on that builds up heat triggering overheating. This isn't the case without cards in the camera.(edited)*_


I have! get on the Discord Forum ya'll!


----------



## PureClassA (Aug 5, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> Very interesting if true. More reason to get an external recorder if the 4KHQ won't overheat.


Well the problem is that Externals were even only getting an hour or so in 4KHQ... Until Wayne here thinks, "What if take out the battery and use a dummy battery and REMOVE THE CARD" Magic Bullet! He's claiming he got about 4 hours in 4KHQ doing that. He is putting together a video now. He documented the whole test


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## PureClassA (Aug 5, 2020)

And he actually hit up Gerald Undone on Twitter, but unfortunately Gerald said he already had to send back the cameras to Canon. Trying to get Armando in the game to run his own test if he still has the cameras


----------



## Respinder (Aug 5, 2020)

Just curious if anyone has done a teardown of the camera for the purposes of investigating why it is behaving the way it is. If Canon doesn't plan on fixing the problem, I'd be curious to see if anyone with the engineering know-how is willing to identify where the problem is coming from, and perhaps suggest modifications that may result in enhanced performance. Perhaps iFixIt will investigate at some point?


----------



## scyrene (Aug 5, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I generally agree. But, I have a problem with *any* company that offers *any* feature that isn't ready for prime time. I think it was more than a bad marketing decision. I think it was a bad engineering and design decision. No matter how many disclaimers you offer, it's no substitute for having a product that works. If they couldn't make these ridiculously high resolution and frame rate modes work, they should have just left them off.
> 
> My perspective is different that the majority on this forum, but I see this as a case where they let the engineers and designers drive the marketing. "Ooh lookey what we can design! Never mind that it's non-functional in the real world, people should just adapt." No. You should engineer the product to work or not include the feature.



I dunno. I think your position has merit, but everything has limitations, I'm not sure why some are considered so much more egregious than others. Previously, Canon DSLRs and MILCs compromised by having cropped 4K. Fewer heat issues, and you could work around it to some extent by using wider lenses, but it was a hard limitation on the video mode. Swapping that for what the newest bodies do is not fundamentally different, in my view. The more cutting edge, the more limited the feature, but since the advanced video modes don't prevent the camera doing the more basic stuff (like shooting stills or lower quality video), I don't see it as compromising the package overall.


----------



## bichex (Aug 5, 2020)

Looking a little I think that there is some valid complaint since the camera was promoted for months as an 8K video camera as its main feature. I am not interested in video at all, but I suppose a significant part of the price of the camera is due to its video specifications. Hopefully all this negative publicity can drive the price down in the coming months. I have to upgrade from a 7D II and I think these cameras will do the job. Anyway, this canon ad with mind-blowing specs sounds a lot like what Sony was doing in the past; Paradoxically, the last camera announced by Sony, seems like something that could have been done some time ago. Anyway, for still images, the R5 seems fabulous and if the price drops a little it may sell a lot and even I am tempted to buy one. What is clear is that the next R5 will be incredible. Regards


----------



## Rocksthaman (Aug 5, 2020)

Justhandguns said:


> I have always been wondering, for a mirrorless camera, if you keep the camera on for continuous shooting, the sensor is supposedly to be on all the time as in video capturing, does that mean it will also over heat as well? Or is it just because the continue video processing generate a lot more heat than simply keeping the sensor on for still shooting?
> 
> P.S. I won't trust all these videoographers doing Youtube and video-castings as most of them are actually making videos for a living. Most people who get the R5/R6 are using them for stills and short videos. Why bother?



Because you get a tool like this for what you COULD do. Do you think every A7riv owner is cropping every shot , do you think every BMPCC owner is shooting feature films ? That’s the point of creativity testing your boundaries of what’s possible.

For me shooting in 4K at an event and being able to switch to 4k60 for the right moment is a priority for me. It’s just frustrating that the perfect camera could be locked out for overheating Just for being turned on or taking photos


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## PureClassA (Aug 5, 2020)

Respinder said:


> Just curious if anyone has done a teardown of the camera for the purposes of investigating why it is behaving the way it is. If Canon doesn't plan on fixing the problem, I'd be curious to see if anyone with the engineering know-how is willing to identify where the problem is coming from, and perhaps suggest modifications that may result in enhanced performance. Perhaps iFixIt will investigate at some point?


No need to. You have a massive 45MP sensor sitting in a small sealed box with zero ventilation, doing a full readout at 24/30 fps and encoding/recording it internally. It's a volcano. The EXTERNAL issue is something else. The camera is not really getting hot at all and shutting off after an hour in the same 4KHQ mode. It should be able to go longer. There's something firmware related that is being over protective, particularly with external recording


----------



## unfocused (Aug 5, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> Why leave off something that can be used to great advantage within a certain realm. A brief 8k pan and zoom for 4k could be very impressive and useful. It gives a taste of the future. I would never leave something like this off but that's just my way of viewing life. The massive data associated with 8k tells me that no average Joe would ever be recording longer clips anyway, so why complain? I think most of the hate is based on envy.
> 
> Jack


To put it simply: because Canon is not Sony.

I'd bet that if you did a content search of this website you would find literally thousands of instances where people say they buy and are loyal to Canon because they just work. Canon has never been about the bells and the whistles. Canon is about reliability. It's about buying a camera that works right out of the box without any unpleasant surprises. Canon has ridden that reliability and predictability to domination in the marketplace. By pushing the video specs beyond what was attainable Canon undercut a decades long reputation.


----------



## miaumiau (Aug 5, 2020)

If this is the best review, i don't even want to imagine the other ones...


----------



## Darrell Cadieux (Aug 5, 2020)

2 minutes about this camera as a photographer's camera...2 minutes.


----------



## Bert63 (Aug 5, 2020)

Darrell Cadieux said:


> 2 minutes about this camera as a photographer's camera...2 minutes.




...and a week 2 minutes at that.


----------



## PureClassA (Aug 5, 2020)

Well he is specifically a VIDEO guy, so that’s what he reviews. Cut the man some slack. I think it was great because he really really dug into THAT feature set and presented a very fair set of recommendations for VIDEO users.


----------



## Otara (Aug 5, 2020)

If external power and recording, no card etc fixes this issue, thats very good news.


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## dtaylor (Aug 5, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> ...and a week 2 minutes at that.



I don't know how he could have spoken more highly about the photography side. It may have only been two minutes but it was two minutes of "for photography, buy these cameras."


----------



## Don Gutierrez (Aug 6, 2020)

cfibanez said:


> He speaks too fast, and shows image examples for about 10 microseconds. Very irritating. He kept bla, bla, bla about video for 18 minutes. Only the last 5 minutes was (a bit) about still photography.
> 
> I found this review pretty terrible.



He does say in the end if you didn't find it helpful or entertaining, you can try setting the youtube playback to about 75 percent. Since you found him speaking too fast and very irritating, maybe that playback setting will help you  Also, there are timecodes there, so if you wanted to go straight into the photographic portion and ignore the video portions, you could've gone there. Save yourself some time.

Let's be clear: the stills portion of R5 and R6 are phenomenal. I don't think there's anyone contesting it on that point. It checks off a lot of boxes and I think bridges the gap if not exceeds, what even the Sony A7RIV can do. The problem is, many people do like to utilize these cameras as hybrids. Ever since the days of the 5D Mk II and 5D Mark III, Canon''s become a popular choice for wedding, event photographers and filmmakers because it can do both. For the vast many people who are now dipped in doing video, there's a lot of problems you can run into with the R5 and R6 if you decide to switch to video, and that's the issue.

That's the problem with people who keep on saying "oh why don't we just have a stills focused camera now, it always has to include video, what happened to us?". Well, trying to ignore how relevant video is, especially in this evolving business, is pretty foolhardy. Ignoring things cause it's not relevant to you, well that's your prerogative, but ignoring it won't simply make the matter go away.

Again, these cameras are very good, if not incredible cameras. Even the video capabilities are to be marveled at, but limited by the sheer amount of heat it can't dissipate. That leads to issues where, what if you miss the bridge and groom kiss? "oh switch to your second body". This is a $4000 investment with equally expensive cards, and you want me to buy another one that can have an equal fail rate? Most of us, myself included, are not fortunate enough to just simply, "drop for an extra camera body".

Good job, Gerald. People are gonna hate and nitpick at you for all the dumb reasons. But facts are facts.


----------



## Respinder (Aug 6, 2020)

Don Gutierrez said:


> He does say in the end if you didn't find it helpful or entertaining, you can try setting the youtube playback to about 75 percent. Since you found him speaking too fast and very irritating, maybe that playback setting will help you  Also, there are timecodes there, so if you wanted to go straight into the photographic portion and ignore the video portions, you could've gone there. Save yourself some time.
> 
> Let's be clear: the stills portion of R5 and R6 are phenomenal. I don't think there's anyone contesting it on that point. It checks off a lot of boxes and I think bridges the gap if not exceeds, what even the Sony A7RIV can do. The problem is, many people do like to utilize these cameras as hybrids. Ever since the days of the 5D Mk II and 5D Mark III, Canon''s become a popular choice for wedding, event photographers and filmmakers because it can do both. For the vast many people who are now dipped in doing video, there's a lot of problems you can run into with the R5 and R6 if you decide to switch to video, and that's the issue.
> 
> ...



Not only are professionals doing both video and photo, but in general, more people are doing videography. Think about mobile apps like Instagram and TikTok that continue to pivot to videos versus still images - video is quickly becoming the more desirable way to communicate.

For me - a hobbyist - I’m looking at both the video and photo capabilities as being necessary for vacations - I can’t imagine a scenario where I take a ton of photos and then all of a sudden I get locked out of video. Does it mean that I have to take all my video first so that the camera doesn’t overheat and then switch to photos? Even as a non-pro that seems like a very complicated way to use this camera - am I working the camera or is the camera working me? When I factor in the total price including body, lenses, adapter and card, this camera is really starting to look less likely for my purposes.

I don’t see how any self-respecting videographer would purchase this given the considerable constraints.

Again as I’ve mentioned a few times in other posts I really hope Canon comes back to the table with a solution. With this many people either on here or influencers/media saying that the cameras video is practicably unworkable I don’t see how they can remain silent. The more loudly we complain the more likely they will come back with a solution.


----------



## cornieleous (Aug 6, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> He hit it on the head about what ever is in denial about. As I said before, they marketed the video functions more than anything else without mentioning the limitations. But everyone thinks it is wrong of consumers to be upset or discouraged because Canon didnt say it would record in all modes without overheating. Marketing isnt about 100% transperancy, Canon knew they what they were hyping up. 4k60 shouldnt be overheating in 2020. Most couldnt give a crap about using the 8K right now aside from bragging rights.



Can you name one single other FF 45MP in a weather sealed MILC body with IBIS that doesn't overheat?

You have a general notion that you choose to believe, but you are ignoring physics and electronics principles.

"4k60 shouldnt be overheating in 2020" (sic) demonstrates you have no idea about WHY a 45MP sensor is overheating in the R5.


----------



## Deleted member 384473 (Aug 6, 2020)

nikkito said:


> well... i skipped like 18 minutes till he actually started talking about photography, which is all this camera is about (even if people keep forgetting it).
> 
> www.nicolaszonvi.com





tbintb said:


> Agreed! Since the release of the R5/R6, it’s been like 20-1 video reviews. It almost feels like photography itself is a craft of the past.


Well... You both missed a good, fair video. Hope people don't skip your photos and comment about it after you share them.


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## Don Gutierrez (Aug 6, 2020)

Respinder said:


> Not only are professionals doing both video and photo, but in general, more people are doing videography. Think about mobile apps like Instagram and TikTok that continue to pivot to videos versus still images - video is quickly becoming the more desirable way to communicate.
> 
> For me - a hobbyist - I’m looking at both the video and photo capabilities as being necessary for vacations - I can’t imagine a scenario where I take a ton of photos and then all of a sudden I get locked out of video. Does it mean that I have to take all my video first so that the camera doesn’t overheat and then switch to photos? Even as a non-pro that seems like a very complicated way to use this camera - am I working the camera or is the camera working me? When I factor in the total price including body, lenses, adapter and card, this camera is really starting to look less likely for my purposes.
> 
> ...



Exactly! The photography hasn't gone down in importance, but videography has definitely risen up in our world today because of IG stories, FB Live, tiktok, etc etc. 

I genuinely like Canon stuff, have shot with it for years, but also have had to branch out because of work (yet still holding some dear Canon gear because, I love that 35mm F/1.4 L of mine). I think they did really well with some of the capabilities of the R5 and R6. But it's hard to justify some of the costs, or downsides posed by the options. Jumping to RF options from an EF is a little close to double the price, and having the uncertainty of cooldown times between takes isn't something I can't afford, nor risk. 

I guess you can use your iphone, samsung, or any smartphone for video, but that kinda defeats the purpose in buying either of them. 

Either way, I'm sure you'd be able to get by, so long as you're not using the 8k, or 4k120 fps options. Even for most leisure videos, you'd get some good results from their 4k 24 or 30fps. But it is disheartening to think that it'd fail on you when you need it to work the most.


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## David - Sydney (Aug 6, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> Like Americans saying Zeeeeeeebra - very grating.
> 
> Jack


Or Americans who ignore the x in luxury "lugury"


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## Rocksthaman (Aug 6, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Can you name one single other FF 45MP in a weather sealed MILC body with IBIS that doesn't overheat?
> 
> You have a general notion that you choose to believe, but you are ignoring physics and electronics principles.
> 
> "4k60 shouldnt be overheating in 2020" (sic) demonstrates you have no idea about WHY a 45MP sensor is overheating in the R5.


It’s not overheated. Multiple testers have said the cameras are cool to the touch. They are programmed to show overheated as a timed limit based on usage and not the actual temperature of the camera. Same with the obligatory record limit even with no tax law. It’s all one Big sell for the cinema cameras.


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## David - Sydney (Aug 6, 2020)

Respinder said:


> Just curious if anyone has done a teardown of the camera for the purposes of investigating why it is behaving the way it is. If Canon doesn't plan on fixing the problem, I'd be curious to see if anyone with the engineering know-how is willing to identify where the problem is coming from, and perhaps suggest modifications that may result in enhanced performance. Perhaps iFixIt will investigate at some point?


As much as everyone would love to see a teardown, people are just happy to get theirs rather than void the warranty on arrival. Even the reviewers need to return theirs to Canon. A teardown will happen but not for a while yet and Roger is the best one to do it. Can't imagine Lens rentals to get a sufficient stock and have damaged ones returned for repair for some time. By that time, there will be 3rd party coolers, work arounds and maybe a firmware update. Perhaps the Sony folk will finally focus on reviewing real A7Siii bodies and examine their limitations.


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## cornieleous (Aug 6, 2020)

Rocksthaman said:


> It’s not overheated. Multiple testers have said the cameras are cool to the touch. They are programmed to show overheated as a timed limit based on usage and not the actual temperature of the camera. Same with the obligatory record limit even with no tax law. It’s all one Big sell for the cinema cameras.



Do you have information about the die temperature of the processor ASIC that we don't? You realize the temperature of the body or battery could be far lower than the processor right? Can you tell us about the lines of firmware code and their algorithm that are cheating us? Or are you speculating? Have you ever done any electronics testing in thermal chambers or written a line of firmware? I have.

The body is NOT cool to the touch after extended use of the higher performance features- it gets very warm but not quite hot- warmer by far than I have ever felt a Canon camera or battery except after leaving it stored in a very hot car. I've been running thermal tests for a few days (I own the camera) and the outside is quite warm when overheat shutdown occurs. In direct sunlight video testing I ran over 90 minutes, the camera was a clear 10-12 degrees warmer than my powered off 5D4 and 6D. It was clearly accumulating heat and not able to expel it to ambient air fast enough.

I've also ran my 5D4 and the R5 in a comparison test configured identically as possible for a 1 hour timelapse, 5 second interval. I've been able to determine that IBIS and EVF are major heat contributors during that use, as is storing dual pixel RAW files. I got the R5 to heat up quite a bit doing the 5 second intervals (a fairly benign activity for most cameras) to the point that HQ video time limits were halved and the body felt way warmer than the 5D4 at the end of the test, and the battery was nearly drained (power used = heat). Turning IBIS and EVF off and repeating the test, the R5 ran with the same very minimal battery use (less than half of an LPE6) as the 5D4 and hardly any increase in temperature over the 5D4 by test end. Those results suggest real thermal problems, not Canon programming. This tiny body has too much capability to use it all without heat issues. I'm ok with having access to those features sometime in R5 when using all its features constantly, and not encountering thermal shutdown often for MY purposes, so is not a big deal to me. I think as a stills camera with some advanced features in this small body, no one else would be able to do any better. IBIS can be set to shot only instead of all time, and screen and EVF can be set to lower power modes or used carefully.

Should Canon raise the limit to let the body get uncomfortably hot and possibly put internal components at risk of long term damage? They might in a later update as a middle ground to all this controversy like Sony did on their past models, we'll see, and Canon knows if they were too conservative. I won't indulge speculation from repeated opinions of others without fair consideration of technical aspects involved and very detailed reporting of test configuration. 

Canon clearly made an engineering and marketing choice and are now being beaten down for it. Sure maybe they could have selected a different balance and they definitely could have marketed smarter, but they didn't. How does lamenting what the R5 is, over and over for two weeks, help? To me this is all the worst way to get a product improved, or anything changed. How you communicate complaints is important. How much actual experience you have and the amount of detail about a problem you record is equally important when troubleshooting. Being calm and respectful about an issue helps the people who have to try to fix the problem. If it turns out not to be fixed to your liking and is not the tool for you, there are amazing products from all the major brands right now. You can make great content with Sony, Panasonic, Nikon, etc. Even the last generation of cameras should not be limiting for competent artists, I cannot believe what we have at our fingertips. Sitting around feeling personally victimized by a company is counterproductive.


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## Respinder (Aug 6, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Do you have information about the die temperature of the processor ASIC that we don't? You realize the temperature of the body or battery could be far lower than the processor right? Can you tell us about the lines of firmware code and their algorithm that are cheating us? Or are you speculating? Have you ever done any electronics testing in thermal chambers or written a line of firmware? I have.
> 
> The body is NOT cool to the touch after extended use of the higher performance features- it gets very warm but not quite hot- warmer by far than I have ever felt a Canon camera or battery except after leaving it stored in a very hot car. I've been running thermal tests for a few days (I own the camera) and the outside is quite warm when overheat shutdown occurs. In direct sunlight video testing I ran over 90 minutes, the camera was a clear 10-12 degrees warmer than my powered off 5D4 and 6D. It was clearly accumulating heat and not able to expel it to ambient air fast enough.
> 
> ...


Sorry man but “being calm and respectful” will do nothing here. Unless we are all loud and complaining actively about the issue, Canon will do absolutely nothing.
Want proof of this? Just ask any 1DX Mark II owner who STILL doesn’t have Clog in their camera, while the cropped video 5D Mark IV did get a Clog update. There’s a method to this madness!


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## ericjon23 (Aug 6, 2020)

still better than the a7r4 and a7siii combined


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## unfocused (Aug 6, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> ...and a week 2 minutes at that.


Would that be a week or two minutes?


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## unfocused (Aug 6, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> Or Americans who ignore the x in luxury "lugury"


Who says that? Never heard it. You must be running with a bad crowd.


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## SteveC (Aug 6, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> Or Americans who ignore the x in luxury "lugury"



Yeah, we do tend to pronounce it "lugzhuree", and exactly becomes "egzaktlee" (though for all I know Aussies do that latter one too). Alas consonants between two vowels tend to become voiced. When I stop and say them slowly I get "lukshuree" and "eksaktlee" and the first still doesn't sound terribly British.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 6, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Would that be a week or two minutes?



It took what seemed like a week to get to those weak two minutes?


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## unfocused (Aug 6, 2020)

Respinder said:


> ...For me - a hobbyist - I’m looking at both the video and photo capabilities as being necessary for vacations - I can’t imagine a scenario where I take a ton of photos and then all of a sudden I get locked out of video...



I'm as critical of this as anyone. But really, for me personally, if I wanted to shoot vacation videos I wouldn't be using 8K or probably even 4K.


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## SteveC (Aug 6, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I'm as critical of this as anyone. But really, for me personally, if I wanted to shoot vacation videos I wouldn't be using 8K or probably even 4K.



I've been satisfied with 1080p for that very purpose. I'd love to see 120fps added to that resolution (and that should be relatively simple for them to add). Will I switch to the 4K line skipped? Probably not. It takes up more space and I'll end up converting it to 1080 most likely anyway.


----------



## BakaBokeh (Aug 6, 2020)

So thanks to wayne in the Discord Server, we have the test results of using the R5 with an external recorder in the oversampled 4K HQ mode with No Cards in the camera. It ran for 4 hours before shutting down. The recovery period was a self-imposed 10 minutes before restarting. No overheating indicator once restarted and he concludes it would probably run for more hours. He mentions the dummy battery in the video, but tested again and reported in Discord that a real battery did not trigger the overheating indicator.






What does this mean?

It means that High Quality Oversampled 4K, which is superior to everything out there, including the A7SIII, can be run for a looong time without heat limitations.

The strange behavior might also mean that there is probably a super aggressive software implemented overheating protection algorithm. It opens up the possibility of a firmware update relaxing this thermal protection. On the flip side, if this was an oversight in the designed protection, Canon may decide to remove the 'no card' trick. I hope that is not the case.


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## eliseaaron (Aug 6, 2020)

^ only in sharpness, not in dynamic range - that's the equation that video people care about, not absolute sharpness


----------



## tbintb (Aug 6, 2020)

JIM JIM said:


> Well... You both missed a good, fair video. Hope people don't skip your photos and comment about it after you share them.


Well Jim, I did watch the whole thing. I never said otherwise. Nor did I say the guy was a bad reviewer.....nor do I even disagree that video isn't important for some folks today. Was it fair? Yes. Good? Only if you are into video. I gather you are a hybrid shooter. For that, I apologize if I offended you. But what I won't apologize for, is enjoying the photographic (stills) side of it. I simply wrote the time of where the reviewer FINALLY starts talking about photos, so that other folks like myself who just want to know that side of the R5 could simply save themselves 20 minutes in their lives. We are basically trying to navigate through all this online video noise. What's wrong with that? You can't deny that the reviews have been very lopsided in favor of videos - to date. Regardless how important video may be to you and others, I'd like to think there is still a fairly large community that wants to hear about the stills side of things. Some want to know what the camera can do as they wait for theirs, and lucky ones like myself who have it already, are simply online because we are excited about it and want to discuss it. The irony to all this video talk, is this camera is probably the best stills camera out there today. It certainly feels like it to me anyway.


----------



## steven_diexplora (Aug 6, 2020)

nikkito said:


> well... i skipped like 18 minutes till he actually started talking about photography, which is all this camera is about (even if people keep forgetting it).
> 
> www.nicolaszonvi.com


This review by Gordon Laing is also pretty good and covers photography.


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## steven_diexplora (Aug 6, 2020)

cfibanez said:


> He speaks too fast, and shows image examples for about 10 microseconds. Very irritating. He kept bla, bla, bla about video for 18 minutes. Only the last 5 minutes was (a bit) about still photography.
> 
> I found this review pretty terrible.



I think you will like this review


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## Firillu (Aug 6, 2020)

I gave up after 15min gibberish on video.

i don’t care and do Not even want to know.

wake me up when canon makes a camera for photographers without having to buy useless video modes that will just get in the way.


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## Baron_Karza (Aug 6, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> ...and a week 2 minutes at that.



Actually, a week is 10,080 minutes.....(7 days X 24 Hrs X 60 minutes)


----------



## Pierre Lagarde (Aug 6, 2020)

tbintb said:


> ...I simply wrote the time of where the reviewer FINALLY starts talking about photos, so that other folks like myself who just want to know that side of the R5 could simply save themselves 20 minutes in their lives. ...


Thank you for that, but I can recommend a better way to save even more time : stop at the sixth word of this article title  !


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## Bennymiata (Aug 6, 2020)

All this whining and whinging about the R5's top end video.
It's like buying a Ferrari and running it at 8500 rpm all the time because the redline on the tacho is 8500rpm so it must be OK to do so.
How long will the engine last?
About 10 minutes. Shorter than it takes an R5 to overheat in 8k.

The video quality of the R5 is fabulous, and demonstrably better than anything else, as well as having the best af in the business.

If you REALLY need to take long videos in 8K or 4k 120fps, then spend $20K on a proper video camera. Make sure you use external mics otherwise you'll get fan noise like you get on an SH1.


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## nikkito (Aug 6, 2020)

steven_diexplora said:


> This review by Gordon Laing is also pretty good and covers photography.


Yes. Thanks!
I've seen it, this one is very good.
Everyone on the comments is saying thanks to him for making a photography review of a photo camera. Crazy world. Right?


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## nikkito (Aug 6, 2020)

JIM JIM said:


> Well... You both missed a good, fair video. Hope people don't skip your photos and comment about it after you share them.



Dude... It's ok. Don't get mad at me please. I'm a good guy. I swear.

It's not about him. It's me.
*I want a photography review of a photo camera.
But apparently it's a rarity this days.*


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## Starting out EOS R (Aug 6, 2020)

I would love to have been a fly on the wall in canon's development meetings when the R5 & R6 were being designed. BUT, I wasn't so we'll never know exactly the rationale for why they designed the camera's like they did, what their original wish lists were, what manufacturing limitations they had or have and what fiscal or company structure restrictions they had or have. There's not much point trying to second guess them. The cameras are here, they are what they are and for me the R5 is great and a huge step up from the R.

I look at the R5 and can see, it was designed to be mobile, relatively small and light so probably aimed at people who move around a lot. It has a battery as well so probably for people who are away from power sources?

I read some of the videos and comments and have to smile when I see solutions being suggested, remove the card and battery, connect an external power source, add an external recorder and you can record for hours. Ooh, look what I've created, a cinema line camera. Oh b***er, I've spent a fortune, on the original body, the external recorder, power source etc etc, I could have bought a cinema line camera.  And, AND, I cant take it outside as the power cable isn't long enough.

Seriously though, this is a lighthearted comment and I'm not judging anyone who wanted the R5 to be the 8K beast it was initially marketed as and is trying to find solutions to make it work for them. I can totally understand why they want to.

However, lets be honest, the marketing was awful but I think now, it's pretty clear & everyone is under no illusions that the R5 is a stills beast with some amazing video options for occasional video shooters but maybe it's time to accept it for what it is and move on, which probably isn't what the vloggers and you tubers will want to hear but maybe if the video side is so important, why not buy cinema line camera and have the perfect tool for the tasks you want to do and stop the moaning and negativity. Be positive about the possibilities.


----------



## degos (Aug 6, 2020)

steven_diexplora said:


> This review by Gordon Laing is also pretty good and covers photography.



Again though there's a lot missing. What happens to EVF response when light falls and ISO climbs? What's it like panning with and tracking inanimate objects rather than eyes? How does IBIS behave with panning at slow shutter speeds? Manual focus peaking? 

These are all bread and butter questions for people who actually go out and shoot.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Aug 6, 2020)

degos said:


> Again though there's a lot missing. What happens to EVF response when light falls and ISO climbs? What's it like panning with and tracking inanimate objects rather than eyes? How does IBIS behave with panning at slow shutter speeds? Manual focus peaking?
> 
> These are all bread and butter questions for people who actually go out and shoot.



The Gordon Laing review was great but I'll give you he didn't cover a lot of view finder stuff. I don't know how it compares to my Z6 viewfinder: Does it let me zoom right into a eye and automatically switch to a pinpoint AF when I do that(which I have found really handy on my Z6 that it'll zoom into my focus point and automatically switch to the pinpoint version at max zoom). And then we need to see panning and some use cases for the high FPS mode on it(can that be assigned to a button for quick changes when you need it for a BIF after you have been shooting deer eating grass).


----------



## Deleted member 384473 (Aug 6, 2020)

nikkito said:


> Dude... It's ok. Don't get mad at me please. I'm a good guy. I swear.
> 
> It's not about him. It's me.
> *I want a photography review of a photo camera.
> But apparently it's a rarity this days.*


Enjoy your photo Camera, mate.


nikkito said:


> We should all go buy the rumoured video camera, try to use it for photos and then complain on our very own reviews.
> 
> We'll show this video guys. You don't mess with photographers



oh, interesting. Canon marketing revolutionary photo specs on this rumored cine that’ll shake the market?


----------



## Rocksthaman (Aug 6, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> I would love to have been a fly on the wall in canon's development meetings when the R5 & R6 were being designed. BUT, I wasn't so we'll never know exactly the rationale for why they designed the camera's like they did, what their original wish lists were, what manufacturing limitations they had or have and what fiscal or company structure restrictions they had or have. There's not much point trying to second guess them. The cameras are here, they are what they are and for me the R5 is great and a huge step up from the R.
> 
> I look at the R5 and can see, it was designed to be mobile, relatively small and light so probably aimed at people who move around a lot. It has a battery as well so probably for people who are away from power sources?
> 
> ...


1) Look at what Sony and Panasonic gave us in video in a smaller body, with no weird self imposed limits, Slog 2&3, without over heating and 4k60, Yes I know it’s not near the same photography wise.

2)Have you tried being inconspicuous or mobile with a cinema camera? They are huge and cumbersome to carry around, even worse rigged out. 
The problem isn’t that this isn’t an amazing photography tool, it’s that it’s probably just as capable tool for video if Canon would unlock it .Canon shooters would like to have something to rival the other smaller video cameras of other brands( A7s, Gh5, BMPCC). Hopefully in the same body.


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## nikkito (Aug 6, 2020)

JIM JIM said:


> Enjoy your photo Camera, mate.
> 
> 
> oh, interesting. Canon marketing revolutionary photo specs on this rumoured cine that’ll shake the market?



Why do you get so triggered ? 
I´m not overheating about this. I´m only anxious to get my pre-ordered R5 to use it for what it was primarily designed: *PHOTOS.*
Since that´s how i make my money


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## SecureGSM (Aug 6, 2020)

Rocksthaman said:


> 1) Look at what Sony and Panasonic gave us in video in a smaller body, with no weird self imposed limits, Slog 2&3, without over heating and 4k60, Yes I know it’s not near the same photography wise.
> 
> 2)Have you tried being inconspicuous or mobile with a cinema camera? They are huge and cumbersome to carry around, even worse rigged out.
> The problem isn’t that this isn’t an amazing photography tool, it’s that it’s probably just as capable tool for video if Canon would unlock it .Canon shooters would like to have something to rival the other smaller video cameras of other brands( A7s, Gh5, BMPCC). Hopefully in the same body.


Clog3, lower bitrate codecs, [email protected] has been confirmed via a firmware upgrade.
4K60 for many hours via an external recorder is available now when both memory cards were removed.
Happy days?


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## Etienne (Aug 6, 2020)

Canon Rumors attracts the largest group of stodgy, stuck in the past "photographers" who are angry that video has become more important than stills on the internet. You guys are worse than the crowd who insisted that no Pro would ever use autofocus in video, which has quickly become one of the most important video features in professional video cameras.
Wake up and smell the coffee: these mirrorless cameras are HYBRID cameras. Their main selling point is that they do BOTH well. And video is obviously extremely important, if not the most important feature today, which Canon clearly demonstrated by focusing so strongly on the video features in the marketing hype.
It's you stuck-in-the-past, "get your video features off of my lawn" dinosaurs who look increasingly unbalanced.


----------



## landon (Aug 6, 2020)

Etienne said:


> Canon Rumors attracts the largest group of stodgy, stuck in the past "photographers" who are angry that video has become more important than stills on the internet. You guys are worse than the crowd who insisted that no Pro would ever use autofocus in video, which has quickly become one of the most important video features in professional video cameras.
> Wake up and smell the coffee: these mirrorless cameras are HYBRID cameras. Their main selling point is that they do BOTH well. And video is obviously extremely important, if not the most important feature today, which Canon clearly demonstrated by focusing so strongly on the video features in the marketing hype.
> It's you stuck-in-the-past, "get your video features off of my lawn" dinosaurs who look increasingly unbalanced.


I'm new, but I'm not going to post anymore here, because I realized it's a photography forum. 
You have a better chance at convincing Hiroo Onoda, than them.


----------



## Rocksthaman (Aug 6, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Clog3, lower bitrate codecs, [email protected] has been confirmed via a firmware upgrade.
> 4K60 for many hours via an external recorder is available now when both memory cards were removed.
> Happy days?



plenty happy already. It’s the unnecessary omissions that are frustrating. We just found out about the 4k60 option externally(both r5/R6, preordered both)Hopefully firmware can fix that so you can keep the cards in and just not record to them. And I would like that record limit removed though.

1)30 min record limit
2)Clog 2 
3)overheating limits based on time and not actually being hot(even external 4K 60 “overheats” at 4 hours, but is still cool).
4) micro HDMI , just why


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## Rocksthaman (Aug 6, 2020)

nikkito said:


> Why do you get so triggered ?
> I´m not overheating about this. I´m only anxious to get my pre-ordered R5 to use it for what it was primarily designed: *PHOTOS.*
> Since that´s how i make my money


That’s you. But there are many more people willing to take their own pictures than there used to be.
Video has become much less commoditized as you generally need more than one person, A stabilizer, an editor and good audio. Some can still do it but if you are a photographer (Me) who is getting less jobs for what ever reason you want to be able to use your tools to do more, like video.

So when you make a purchase, you want the tool that can do both well. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand, especially if you have a shelf of Canon glass.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Aug 6, 2020)

Rocksthaman said:


> 1) Look at what Sony and Panasonic gave us in video in a smaller body, with no weird self imposed limits, Slog 2&3, without over heating and 4k60, Yes I know it’s not near the same photography wise.
> 
> 2)Have you tried being inconspicuous or mobile with a cinema camera? They are huge and cumbersome to carry around, even worse rigged out.
> The problem isn’t that this isn’t an amazing photography tool, it’s that it’s probably just as capable tool for video if Canon would unlock it .Canon shooters would like to have something to rival the other smaller video cameras of other brands( A7s, Gh5, BMPCC). Hopefully in the same body.


Interesting points and it sounds like you do a lot of comparing manufacturers and liking things they do. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

The interesting thing about your points is that both the Sony and Panasonic don't do 8K and as you acknowledge are not nearly the same photography wise, so are not a genuine comparison. The second thing is, no I haven't tried being inconspicuous or mobile with a cinema camera and never will. My point was that most of the vlogs, you tube videos and proposed solutions like removing the card and battery, using an external power source and an external recorder etc are relevant for studio or inside use whereas the R5 is clearly designed for mobile photography and with the best will in the world was never intended as a professional / commercial video camera to replace dedicated cinema line cameras.

Anyone with a computer knows how they generate heat when processing images and as they are generally stationary items, have big fans built in to cool them. The R5 isn't a stationary computer and unless Canon wanted to make it larger, adding a fan and then destroy the cinema line product range, it was never going to be as capable. As I said, the marketing was terrible and should never have focused on the 8K video aspects but it is what it is and we cant change that but we can deal with it without continuously harping on about what could or should have been and how other manufacturers are doing things.

There are loads of fantastic cameras out there like the new Sony which is clearly a video centric camera but we shouldn't compare it to the R5 as it isn't the same thing. Sony have their way of moving forward, as do Canon, Panasonic and Nikon etc and all have their benefits and drawbacks. We are lucky that we live in a time where we can choose whatever we like, it's your decision at such an amazing time but we shouldn't moan about something that has already happened and we cant change. 

I spend far too much time on this site and need to get out more lol. Have a great day everyone and keep safe!


----------



## Mike the cat (Aug 6, 2020)

Not sure if it's been posted here already, but this video came up on YouTube, stating they got over 4 hours in 4kHQ mode when recording externally and removing the CFExpress card:






Gerald Undone left this comment on the video:


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## Kiton (Aug 6, 2020)

It is only a week today that I have been shooting with this camera, but I think the 5d mk 4 and some EF glass will go up for sale next week to help fund some more RF glass.

I never thought I would see the day that I would sell the 5d mk 4, it is a great camera, but I said that about the 5d mk 3 too. And in a way, the R5 is the new 5d mk 5.


----------



## Kurt (Aug 6, 2020)

This might explain why R5 overheats. Or does it?

Take a look at the R5 internals, you will notice that the processor is sandwiched between pcbs and there's literally no effective heat conduct between heat source(cmos, processor, etc) and the magnesium body, apart from air. 







This thermo image of the R5 while recording also suggest that the heat is not transferred very well to the body, which make the r5 more like a thermos mug. This is however, from my understanding, is purely done by purpose.






However
Considering The R5 can do 'almost' unlimited continues burst of 45mp in 20fps (which is very close to 8k 24fps) without any overheating even in hot weather, there is no cool down time requirement between bursts as long as the camera can clear the buffer fast enough. 
Does it seems strange that even powering on and toggling the menus will greatly reduce the recording time in certain modes？

This leads me thinking, either the camera indeed cant handle that extra 4fps and all the related processing, and canon deliberately design the thermo performance this way to protect their cinema line. Or, R5 is actually capable of far better recording performance, but canon set a firmware limitation, again, to protect the C-line. Just look at the upcoming RF compact C-camera, smaller than 1dx, and 4k 120, no limits.

It seems that canon is far more than capable of producing the 'perfect' camera for both still and motion lovers. The only reason it does not do so is that it challenging its own business model. not sony or anyone else.

BTW, bought both R5 and A7S3. Sigh...


----------



## RayValdez360 (Aug 6, 2020)

So after having 2 back to back photoshoots, I noticed the overheating warning came on. I did no video.IT is probably true that if you take a ton of photos and switch to the "heater" modes, that the camera will probably overheat. It was a studio shoot and I had my air conditioning on. This is not good for hybrid event photos that think they can shoot photos and try something like 4k60. I didnt switch to video so I dont know how much heat time was lost using photos.


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## dlee13 (Aug 6, 2020)

nikkito said:


> well... i skipped like 18 minutes till he actually started talking about photography, which is all this camera is about (even if people keep forgetting it).
> 
> www.nicolaszonvi.com



And that skipping got you 2 mins of photography talk...

I usually enjoy his videos and do subscribe to him andI will probably hate myself later on for saying this BUT, I even preferred Tony Northrup's video as he focused purely on photography in his review.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Aug 6, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> So after having 2 back to back photoshoots, I noticed the overheating warning came on. I did no video.IT is probably true that if you take a ton of photos and switch to the "heater" modes, that the camera will probably overheat. It was a studio shoot and I had my air conditioning on. This is not good for hybrid event photos that think they can shoot photos and try something like 4k60. I didnt switch to video so I dont know how much heat time was lost using photos.


Would like to here some more details about this. How many photos did you take before the overheating warning came up?


----------



## nikkito (Aug 6, 2020)

Rocksthaman said:


> That’s you. But there are many more people willing to take their own pictures than there used to be.
> Video has become much less commoditized as you generally need more than one person, A stabilizer, an editor and good audio. Some can still do it but if you are a photographer (Me) who is getting less jobs for what ever reason you want to be able to use your tools to do more, like video.
> 
> So when you make a purchase, you want the tool that can do both well. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand, especially if you have a shelf of Canon glass.



What?
I'm not against video, but I'm a photographer and this is a photo camera.
So if... Let's say, 20 reviews are about video and 1 is about photography, it's only natural this bothers me. Check the comments on that photography review of the R5. Everyone is saying thanks for reviewing it for photos. 

Why do I even have to explain this. Honestly, this is crazy. You don't review a selfie stick for how good it works to scratch your back. Do you?


----------



## adigoks (Aug 6, 2020)

Kurt said:


> This might explain why R5 overheats. Or does it?
> 
> Take a look at the R5 internals, you will notice that the processor is sandwiched between pcbs and there's literally no effective heat conduct between heat source(cmos, processor, etc) and the magnesium body, apart from air.
> View attachment 191911
> ...



that layout tho, put the big hot CFExpress just beside the CPU is absolutely nightmare in my opinion. the heat are magnified by each other just by being used right?

Thats why some youtuber found that recording time extend by multiple time just by record externally without CFExpress inserted into camera body.
i think the board layout also affecting landscape photographer who wants to do long exposure photo. producing much more hot pixel in their image / dark frame.






overall im agree with what Kurt said. pretty sure canon is more than capable to deliver usable 8K DSLM . they can design the camera to well dissipate the heat . but as we know about canon, they wont sacrifice their other product line up.


----------



## scyrene (Aug 6, 2020)

Respinder said:


> Not only are professionals doing both video and photo, but in general, more people are doing videography. Think about mobile apps like Instagram and TikTok that continue to pivot to videos versus still images - video is quickly becoming the more desirable way to communicate.



Are people creating content on those apps with MILCs or DSLRs though? I'd have thought the vast majority of videos were filmed on mobile phones, because they are ubiquitous and the workflow is so much easier.


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## Chromedbustop (Aug 6, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> So much of that review is on the irrelevant video functions. Youtubers almost always entirely focus on how well a stills camera does in video.


That's the fault of Canon. If they wanted it to be viewed as a primarily stills camera they shouldn't have sent so many of their preview builds to video-focused youtubers.


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## AlanF (Aug 6, 2020)

Chromedbustop said:


> That's the fault of Canon. If they wanted it to be viewed as a primarily stills camera they shouldn't have sent so many of their preview builds to video-focused youtubers.


My rule of life has been to under-promise and over-deliver - never had a research grant application turned down,


----------



## scyrene (Aug 6, 2020)

Etienne said:


> Canon Rumors attracts the largest group of stodgy, stuck in the past "photographers" who are angry that video has become more important than stills on the internet. You guys are worse than the crowd who insisted that no Pro would ever use autofocus in video, which has quickly become one of the most important video features in professional video cameras.
> Wake up and smell the coffee: these mirrorless cameras are HYBRID cameras. Their main selling point is that they do BOTH well. And video is obviously extremely important, if not the most important feature today, which Canon clearly demonstrated by focusing so strongly on the video features in the marketing hype.
> It's you stuck-in-the-past, "get your video features off of my lawn" dinosaurs who look increasingly unbalanced.



Nothing like insulting a bunch of people for no reason, eh? If some people are like that, what's the problem? Just because something has become popular doesn't mean everyone has to like it. Different strokes for different folks.

Fwiw I do very little video in large part because I find sharing it online a LOT harder than still images. The workflow is a lot more involved, it's harder to get good results, and I find upload times too long, clip length restrictions on some platforms (like Twitter) too short, and playback quality often very poor indeed. Even using a high end mobile phone, it's usually not worth the hassle. But I respect people who enjoy it and create video content, because I endeavour to be open minded. You could try that.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 6, 2020)

Kurt said:


> This might explain why R5 overheats. Or does it?
> 
> Take a look at the R5 internals, you will notice that the processor is sandwiched between pcbs and there's literally no effective heat conduct between heat source(cmos, processor, etc) and the magnesium body, apart from air.
> View attachment 191911
> ...


This theory is not very well supported if you consider that R5 is capable of hours of recording to an external recorder with memory cards removed. It is either the card that is being a massive heat source or software is glitchy.


----------



## quilatoo (Aug 6, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Would like to here some more details about this. How many photos did you take before the overheating warning came up?


What’s an acceptable number of shots to take to be locked out of features we pay for?


----------



## Respinder (Aug 6, 2020)

scyrene said:


> Are people creating content on those apps with MILCs or DSLRs though? I'd have thought the vast majority of videos were filmed on mobile phones, because they are ubiquitous and the workflow is so much easier.


Sure you’re right - but the idea is that these apps are pushing the mainstream audiences (the same mainstream who would’ve used point-and-shoots in the pre-smartphone-era) towards video. Pros in turn are also doing more video along with photos. I don’t think photography is decreasing or going away - it’s simply that videography is increasing - and with mainstream audiences doing cell phone videos it is only natural that pros will use pro equipment (ILC/DSLRs) to create their footage


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## ahsanford (Aug 6, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> This theory is not very well supported if you consider that R5 is capable of hours of recording to an external recorder with memory cards removed. It is either the card that is being a massive heat source or software is glitchy.




So:

Writing to CF express generates a ton of heat? Don't the card manufacturers have to certify their speeds can be safely obtained without overheating, data errors, etc.? Are they only on the hook for demonstrating peak speed and not some ability to run consistently under certain operating limits? Has anyone put an IR gun or contact thermometer on their cards vs. other parts of the body to see that the cards are actually heating up to a greater degree than the body in general?


Canon somehow implemented CF express on the R5 incorrectly? (What if the R6 also allows this no card + external recording to go longer?)


Canon wanted strict temp controls managed with time limits, but somehow forgot to enforce limits in the firmware for this specific no card + external recorder? (Doubt this: that would imply the dude who discovered this would brick his rig if he kept going.)
This is a weird one. Very curious to hear Canon's response to this.

- A


----------



## yeahright (Aug 6, 2020)

Somewhat off-topic, but related to the discussion about video vs. stills in the current media landscape: I would honestly like to feel a bit less like a dinosaur and be able to embrace video, since apparently, many people find it more appealing than written information and/or still photography. However, I fail to grasp the appeal of many online videos; this is particular true of many youtube channels, where a lot of the content is simply someone sitting in a room talking about some topic that could also easily have been written down. These days, you can hardly find any product review, tutorial or whatnot that is not in video form. Most often I just don't see the added value, instead, for me there are typically several drawbacks:

* A written article is easy to cross-read and it is easy to skip the paragraphs that are clearly not of interest, because you can usually tell in a split second what a paragraph will be about - (almost) impossible in video. Usually you have to spend much more time watching parts of the video that don't actually interest you, because skipping parts is much more cumbersome.
* Quite frequently some tiny bit of information is blown up to several minutes of video - people just don't come to the point quickly - probably because otherwise, the videos would be too short. Also, in writing you can e.g. include a table or a chart with much more in-depth information than you could include in a video. In video, many times I find that the information stays more superficial.
* You need to carry headphones with you to be able to watch videos everywhere. In public transportation, or for that matter, in any public space, where I'd have the most spare time to do so, I can't watch a video without headphones because the sound would be disturbing to other people. Leaving headphones as another bothersome item to deal with.
* I cannot process the information in my own pace but am forced to listen in the talking speed of the presenter. Therefore, I frequently find myself having to jump back a few seconds in videos because I have missed a point, couldn't follow quickly enough, or (e.g. in tutorials) want to try the things myself simultaneously, which usually takes longer than the presenter takes to show them. In an article, it is easy to have it open side by side and simply follow instructions step by step. In video, I have to hop back and forth, and end up seeing the same portion of the video over and over again (also because hopping back is almost always not on point as well).

Of course I get the appeal of video for cinematography, any action videos, music or dance videos, wedding videos, wildlife action, etc. But for youtube content of the sort "person explaining/reviewing something that doesn't inherently require motion" - could someone enlighten me what the major benefits are? Maybe I have just been missing the point. Honest question.


----------



## adigoks (Aug 6, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> So:
> 
> Writing to CF express generates a ton of heat? Don't the card manufacturers have to certify their speeds can be safely obtained without overheating, data errors, etc.?
> 
> ...



1 . yes CF Express generates a ton of heat.
typical M.2 NVMe SSD using x3 PCI-E lane and CFExpress type B using 2X PCI-E lane if i remember correctly. although it only needs around 5-15 Watt for M.2 SSD, it does produce massive amount of heat.
thats why some fast & expensive VNMe SSD had heatsink on top of it. also consider how small the form factor of CFExpress type B is compared to M.2 SSD.

also user in another thread in this forum pointed out how NVMe may work on the camera, which is pretty similar with what we can found in our PC.

2. Most Likely
with how they place CPU & CFExpress slot, it probably is. but deliberately or not we didnt know for sure.

3. yeah same as i thought


----------



## Jack Douglas (Aug 6, 2020)

yeahright said:


> Somewhat off-topic, but related to the discussion about video vs. stills in the current media landscape: I would honestly like to feel a bit less like a dinosaur and be able to embrace video, since apparently, many people find it more appealing than written information and/or still photography. However, I fail to grasp the appeal of many online videos; this is particular true of many youtube channels, where a lot of the content is simply someone sitting in a room talking about some topic that could also easily have been written down. These days, you can hardly find any product review, tutorial or whatnot that is not in video form. Most often I just don't see the added value, instead, for me there are typically several drawbacks:
> 
> * A written article is easy to cross-read and it is easy to skip the paragraphs that are clearly not of interest, because you can usually tell in a split second what a paragraph will be about - (almost) impossible in video. Usually you have to spend much more time watching parts of the video that don't actually interest you, because skipping parts is much more cumbersome.
> * Quite frequently some tiny bit of information is blown up to several minutes of video - people just don't come to the point quickly - probably because otherwise, the videos would be too short. Also, in writing you can e.g. include a table or a chart with much more in-depth information than you could include in a video. In video, many times I find that the information stays more superficial.
> ...


I'll enlighten you - you're probably getting old like me and are too thorough, engaged, serious, thoughtful and know how to read. You may however be in the process of becoming obsolete - perhaps you need a processor upgrade or an implant of some supplemental AI like the R5 got.

It's hard to know where the world is headed with its progressive ideas but I certainly like the progress on the R5.

Jack


----------



## Jack Douglas (Aug 6, 2020)

adigoks said:


> 1 . yes CF Express generates a ton of heat.
> typical M.2 NVMe SSD using x3 PCI-E lane and CFExpress type B using 2X PCI-E lane if i remember correctly. although it only needs around 5-15 Watt for M.2 SSD, it does produce massive amount of heat.
> thats why some fast & expensive VNMe SSD had heatsink on top of it. also consider how small the form factor of CFExpress type B is compared to M.2 SSD.
> 
> ...


I wasn't believing it could be possible but with all the investigative pressure maybe Canon will indeed be forced to make some modification since it appears it may be feasible.

Jack


----------



## reefroamer (Aug 6, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Nope. Merely reading ones manual would be enough. It says operating temperature is 0-104 F. The overheat icons come on after 104 F is reached. Being smart enough not to let your device exceed operating temps is sufficient. I would never install that update if it took away my resolutions and frame rates that i PAID FOR because some people can't read a manual.


My sarcasm was too subtle. I wouldn’t do it, either


----------



## nikkito (Aug 6, 2020)

adigoks said:


> that layout tho, put the big hot CFExpress just beside the CPU is absolutely nightmare in my opinion. the heat are magnified by each other just by being used right?
> 
> Thats why some youtuber found that recording time extend by multiple time just by record externally without CFExpress inserted into camera body.
> i think the board layout also affecting landscape photographer who wants to do long exposure photo. producing much more hot pixel in their image / dark frame.
> ...


clickbait


----------



## scyrene (Aug 6, 2020)

Respinder said:


> Sure you’re right - but the idea is that these apps are pushing the mainstream audiences (the same mainstream who would’ve used point-and-shoots in the pre-smartphone-era) towards video. Pros in turn are also doing more video along with photos. I don’t think photography is decreasing or going away - it’s simply that videography is increasing - and with mainstream audiences doing cell phone videos it is only natural that pros will use pro equipment (ILC/DSLRs) to create their footage



Agreed


----------



## RayValdez360 (Aug 6, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Would like to here some more details about this. How many photos did you take before the overheating warning came up?


maybe a couple of hundred. it happened during my second shoot. there was break in between shoots. Maybe it was a glitch but it did pop up and stayed on screen.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 6, 2020)

yeahright said:


> Somewhat off-topic, but related to the discussion about video vs. stills in the current media landscape: I would honestly like to feel a bit less like a dinosaur and be able to embrace video, since apparently, many people find it more appealing than written information and/or still photography. However, I fail to grasp the appeal of many online videos; this is particular true of many youtube channels, where a lot of the content is simply someone sitting in a room talking about some topic that could also easily have been written down. These days, you can hardly find any product review, tutorial or whatnot that is not in video form. Most often I just don't see the added value, instead, for me there are typically several drawbacks:
> 
> * A written article is easy to cross-read and it is easy to skip the paragraphs that are clearly not of interest, because you can usually tell in a split second what a paragraph will be about - (almost) impossible in video. Usually you have to spend much more time watching parts of the video that don't actually interest you, because skipping parts is much more cumbersome.
> * Quite frequently some tiny bit of information is blown up to several minutes of video - people just don't come to the point quickly - probably because otherwise, the videos would be too short. Also, in writing you can e.g. include a table or a chart with much more in-depth information than you could include in a video. In video, many times I find that the information stays more superficial.
> ...



I tend to agree with a lot of this.

I noticed people starting to do what in essence is a video of them giving a talk, rather than just writing it down, years and years ago. (And not just for photography/videography issues.) At least many of the photography/videography reviews _don't _just do talking head, they'll show you things (Fro goes to a lot of trouble to show you what's in his viewfinder, for instance), but these other guys did and it was usually a pretty unappetizing talking head, to boot.

A book review, for instance, is a poor candidate for a video; that's going to be a talking head. Sometimes said talking head can convey a lot with facial expressions and tone that would be lost in print, but 90% of the time, it's just a waste because the talker doesn't do these things well.


----------



## David - Sydney (Aug 7, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Yeah, we do tend to pronounce it "lugzhuree", and exactly becomes "egzaktlee" (though for all I know Aussies do that latter one too). Alas consonants between two vowels tend to become voiced. When I stop and say them slowly I get "lukshuree" and "eksaktlee" and the first still doesn't sound terribly British.


Completely off topic but... We have our unique language too with clear city vs country dialects. It seems very hard for non-aussies to put on an aussie accent vs the many aussie actors who pull off US/UK accents. The Washington Post had Meryl Streep – "yes, with another perfect accent" (from an American perspective) in Evil Angels but it flopped in Australia as we couldn't bear to listen to it. The subtle nuances of "mate" is also confounding for non-locals. 
https://theculturetrip.com/pacific/australia/articles/the-worst-australian-accents-in-film/


----------



## brad-man (Aug 7, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> Completely off topic but... We have our unique language too with clear city vs country dialects. It seems very hard for non-aussies to put on an aussie accent vs the many aussie actors who pull off US/UK accents. The Washington Post had Meryl Streep – "yes, with another perfect accent" (from an American perspective) in Evil Angels but it flopped in Australia as we couldn't bear to listen to it. The subtle nuances of "mate" is also confounding for non-locals.
> https://theculturetrip.com/pacific/australia/articles/the-worst-australian-accents-in-film/


Not a very comprehensive list. I didn't see the Geico lizard on it.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 7, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> Completely off topic but... We have our unique language too with clear city vs country dialects. It seems very hard for non-aussies to put on an aussie accent vs the many aussie actors who pull off US/UK accents. The Washington Post had Meryl Streep – "yes, with another perfect accent" (from an American perspective) in Evil Angels but it flopped in Australia as we couldn't bear to listen to it. The subtle nuances of "mate" is also confounding for non-locals.
> https://theculturetrip.com/pacific/australia/articles/the-worst-australian-accents-in-film/



On a trip to Indonesia, one Indonesian (serving as our guide) opined that he couldn't understand Australians at all, but had no difficulty with Americans, Canadians and folks from the United Kingdom.

Personally I'm just glad Terry Irwin narrated parts of the Crocodile Hunter series; she did an excellent job of translating Steve Irwin's Australian into American English. 

(All kidding aside, she wasn't saying redundant things, and Steve was fairly understandable but loaded with colorful (to me anyway) idioms.)


----------



## RayValdez360 (Aug 7, 2020)

i mentioned the heat warning on the CFE door and I was scoffed at. No one listens to me.


----------



## slclick (Aug 7, 2020)

So NOW these are great for stills, ok. I'm sure they are wonderful but unfortunately we have to hear and read nothing but teethgnashing from the Little Coppolas. I'd love to hear a 20 minute stills review by him on this pair in the future.


----------



## exige24 (Aug 7, 2020)

You want this headline back, Canon Rumors? Haha


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Aug 7, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> maybe a couple of hundred. it happened during my second shoot. there was break in between shoots. Maybe it was a glitch but it did pop up and stayed on screen.


Wow! That doesn't sound good at all. I really do hope it's a glitch because that is unacceptable.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Aug 7, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Wow! That doesn't sound good at all. I really do hope it's a glitch because that is unacceptable.


it happened again today. i shot 223 photos. the heat thing popped up. Even though it doesnt overheat while taking photos i am assuming it means you have to take it easy when doing hybrid shooting.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Aug 7, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> it happened again today. i shot 223 photos. the heat thing popped up. Even though it doesnt overheat while taking photos i am assuming it means you have to take it easy when doing hybrid shooting.



Thanks for the update. That's very strange indeed. Have you done a longer shoot yet to see if the camera will actually over heat? Mine just arrived today, and I usually take a couple of thousand photos on a shoot and would hate for it to shutdown on me...


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Aug 7, 2020)

The more reviews I read, the more convinced I am that the overheating messages coming up are not actually linked to the camera overheating! There seem to be too many people experiencing the warnings when the camera, card and battery are not hot and the camera hasn't actually shut down.

I hate to say it but maybe there is some truth in some theories that Canon have intentionally limited things so as not to affect other ranges and firmware upgrades could actually resolve things. I am purposefully not using the Cr****e h****r phrase but honestly, if this is true, it seems it is still active and well.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Aug 7, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> The more reviews I read, the more convinced I am that the overheating messages coming up are not actually linked to the camera overheating! There seem to be too many people experiencing the warnings when the camera, card and battery are not hot and the camera hasn't actually shut down.
> 
> I hate to say it but maybe there is some truth in some theories that Canon have intentionally limited things so as not to affect other ranges and firmware upgrades could actually resolve things. I am purposefully not using the Cr****e h****r phrase but honestly, if this is true, it seems it is still active and well.


Let's hope if this is true that a firmware update will help the situation. Surely Canon is aware of the controversy


----------



## Chromedbustop (Aug 7, 2020)

AlanF said:


> My rule of life has been to under-promise and over-deliver - never had a research grant application turned down,


Much truth here. I learned that from Star Trek.  Well you don't have to over-deliver. Just give them what you already knew you could, but make it seem like it was a greater achievement. When you rely on hype, like so many businesses do, you're inevitably going to disappoint.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Aug 7, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Let's hope if this is true that a firmware update will help the situation. Surely Canon is aware of the controversy


They must be aware but if this is a deliberate strategy to dumb down the video side, I would like to think after the horrendous publicity this has generated, they will be on the side of purchasers and make some correction to retain goodwill and future launches but correcting it will be a complicated decision for the various departments, the camera department will want it sorted asap but the cinema line will want it to stay as is to protect their market. Not a battle I would like to be in the middle of.


----------



## koenkooi (Aug 7, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> They must be aware but if this is a deliberate strategy to dumb down the video side, I would like to think after the horrendous publicity this has generated, they will be on the side of purchasers and make some correction to retain goodwill and future launches but correcting it will be a complicated decision for the various departments, the camera department will want it sorted asap but the cinema line will want it to stay as is to protect their market. Not a battle I would like to be in the middle of.



Don't forget the company culture side of the argument. If someone high enough up in the chain doesn't want to admit fault nothing will change. I've worked for a large enough (US) company where managers would sabotage products to secure a promotion and get away with it.


----------



## AlanF (Aug 7, 2020)

Chromedbustop said:


> Much truth here. I learned that from Star Trek.  Well you don't have to over-deliver. Just give them what you already knew you could, but make it seem like it was a greater achievement. When you rely on hype, like so many businesses do, you're inevitably going to disappoint.


The corollary is that when you believe your own BS, you are finished.


----------



## slclick (Aug 7, 2020)

I mean come on, the way this whole thing started right out of the gate with the 'end all be all' leaks and marketing? Of course the other shoe had to drop. Now, in the spirit of Undone-ness, does this matter to you and will it affect you as a user? Maybe you shoot stills in a manner which you will never see an error or experience any heat issues. Then I guess it would be the One Ring to Rule them All. Until the next one comes along 

Life is a feature not a bug
Firmware updates are religious holidays
They're modern little presents wrapped in clicks
Perfection is sterile
These irritations are gifts, vibrant and flawed
You are a Douglas Coupland novel


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Aug 7, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Don't forget the company culture side of the argument. If someone high enough up in the chain doesn't want to admit fault nothing will change. I've worked for a large enough (US) company where managers would sabotage products to secure a promotion and get away with it.


Been there and seen that. So frustrating though, especially when these cameras, as good as they are already, could blow away the competition if it was a simple firmware update.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> He hit it on the head about what ever is in denial about. As I said before, they marketed the video functions more than anything else without mentioning the limitations. But everyone thinks it is wrong of consumers to be upset or discouraged because Canon didnt say it would record in all modes without overheating. Marketing isnt about 100% transperancy, Canon knew they what they were hyping up. 4k60 shouldnt be overheating in 2020. Most couldnt give a crap about using the 8K right now aside from bragging rights.



Every official press release issued by Canon mentioned still photo features ahead of video features. Every single one. Even the one that was planned to be made at the NAB trade show that is a video oriented trade show.

It wasn't Canon that ignored the remarkable still imaging features (12/20 fps at 45MP, 8-stop IBIS, 5-series level weather/dust resistance, etc.) and talked about nothing but video. 

It was the idiots on YouTube who think every stills/video hybrid should be a way for them to get a Rolls-Royce level video camera for a Toyota price.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I don't do the video, but DAMN if that wasn't a detail laden mother lode of information. Very well done.
> 
> (Stills folks, just jump to 19:46 to the end for his general thoughts and buying recommendations.)
> 
> ...






ahsanford said:


> Transparency is not the issue here. Canon are pretty honest about that stuff, but even if they weren't, folks would have tested the snot out of these video modes anyway. The issue is that Canon was trying to either claim new business or make a big splash with an industry-first. That approach drove right past an absolute murderer's row of stills upgrades we have been asking for for years.
> 
> Had they led with stills -- or at least put all these systemic upgrades (DPAF II, tilty-flippy, IBIS, sensor quality, etc.) on parity with video in the initial materials, perhaps some luster coming off / reality sticking to their video performance wouldn't drag the camera so publicly right now.
> 
> ...






bichex said:


> Looking a little I think that there is some valid complaint since the camera was promoted for months as an 8K video camera as its main feature. I am not interested in video at all, but I suppose a significant part of the price of the camera is due to its video specifications. Hopefully all this negative publicity can drive the price down in the coming months. I have to upgrade from a 7D II and I think these cameras will do the job. Anyway, this canon ad with mind-blowing specs sounds a lot like what Sony was doing in the past; Paradoxically, the last camera announced by Sony, seems like something that could have been done some time ago. Anyway, for still images, the R5 seems fabulous and if the price drops a little it may sell a lot and even I am tempted to buy one. What is clear is that the next R5 will be incredible. Regards







Starting out EOS R said:


> Seriously though, this is a lighthearted comment and I'm not judging anyone who wanted the R5 to be the 8K beast it was initially marketed as and is trying to find solutions to make it work for them. I can totally understand why they want to.
> 
> However, lets be honest, the marketing was awful...







Starting out EOS R said:


> As I said, the marketing was terrible and should never have focused on the 8K video aspects but it is what it is and we cant change that but we can deal with it without continuously harping on about what could or should have been and how other manufacturers are doing things.




Read Canon's official press releases about the R5 and R6. They did lead with the stills features in every one of them. They always mentioned 12/20 fps, IBIS, two card slots, and 5-series level weather/dust resistance before talking about anything video related.

Unfortunately, the YouTube reviewers, not Canon, chose to ignore still image features and chose to talk only about the video features.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Also, couldn't Canon lean into 8K video as a big opportunity for stills shooters?
> 
> Wouldn't 8K stills frame grabs still be rather high res? Couldn't you use 8K for very hard to time stills work -- like timing the bat hitting the baseball, capturing lightning strikes, etc.?
> 
> ...



Lightning triggers cost around $100 bucks and do it far better than video frame grabs could.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Aug 7, 2020)

Im pretty pissed that its "always about the video". Many of us dont give a dam about video we use the camera purely for stills. The R5 will replace my trusty but ageing 5DS, Ive already got the EOS R and a bunch of RF lenses so my landscape needs are covered and my portraits needs are covered. 

When I shoot video I use my C300 MKII


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I generally agree. But, I have a problem with *any* company that offers *any* feature that isn't ready for prime time. I think it was more than a bad marketing decision. I think it was a bad engineering and design decision. No matter how many disclaimers you offer, it's no substitute for having a product that works. If they couldn't make these ridiculously high resolution and frame rate modes work, they should have just left them off.
> 
> My perspective is different that the majority on this forum, but I see this as a case where they let the engineers and designers drive the marketing. "Ooh lookey what we can design! Never mind that it's non-functional in the real world, people should just adapt." No. You should engineer the product to work or not include the feature.



Except in the real world, when folks *who actually know what they are doing* want to shoot 4K for extended periods of time, they're not processing and saving it in-camera.





__





Canon EOS R5 records 4 hours of 4KHQ 30p to an external recorder, with a couple of simple tweaks


Wayne from No Life Digital has posted a video to his YouTube channel showing how he got the Canon EOS R5 to record 4 hours of 4KHQ 30p video to an Atomos Ninja V before the camera overheated. Simply by removing the memory cards from the camera while recording externally lead to a big boost in...




www.canonrumors.com


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

marathonman said:


> I guess you missed the last 10 years where Canon have been chastised for playing it safe, not innovating enough and protecting other products in their line-up. The cardinal sin has also been committed by not giving the YouTube Vloggers what they demanded!



Which is, of course, that they expect a stills camera that also does video to be able to keep up with a dedicated video camera costing ten times as much.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

kten said:


> Followed him for a while and is one of the few youtubers who are accurate and understand their stuff, but I have interest in video too. What many people here seem to be missing is he is a videographer, he never pretends he isn't. If you want him to make reviews tailored to YOUR use then you'd be better served renting and self assess, or at least watching someone who works primarily stills never mind same style of stills. If you're a studio tabletop product guy then expecting an outdoor sports photographer to cover ONLY what you want is a bit entitled is it not? This camera is marketed as videocentric hybrid and that is the exact reaso nwhy he reviews it because that is what most of HIS subs sre interested in.



Except Canon has not marketed it as a "video centric hybrid." They've always talked about the still capabilities before talking about the video capabilities in every single press release about the R5 and R6.

It's the idiot YouTube reviewers who have totally ignored that fact that make it seem to those unable to think critically for themselves that Canon has only marketed the R5 and R6 as "video centric cameras."


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

bbasiaga said:


> Capturing lightning is typically done by adjusting ISO as low as possible and shutter speed as long as possible (without blowing out the foreground and sky), and then aperture to control how bright the lightning shows up. Its similar to 'flash painting', only you can't control the brightness of the flash or the timing of it. . It actually works better than video, because if your shutter is open for 8 seconds you get all the lighting that occurs in that time, where as in a video it would be spread out over say 30 frames per second for 8 seconds or 240 frames. Just last month I was on a camping trip and got several hours of lighting shots going. It was quite fun and may be my new favorite thing to try in photography.
> 
> As far as i know - and I'm not even a novice at this so I may be wrong - but getting the kind of still image you're thinking of on the baseball bat from a video may be difficult. There are rolling shutter effects, as well as typical video shutter speeds aren't super great at freezing action from a frame grab perspective.
> 
> -Brian



Be careful out there.

Lightning + camping can be a dangerous combination.


----------



## unfocused (Aug 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Except in the real world, when folks *who actually know what they are doing* want to shoot 4K for extended periods of time, they're not processing and saving it in-camera.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, that's not quite true. There are plenty of people who produce videos commercially who do not record everything to an external recorder. But, it really doesn't matter as Canon did not say that you had to record to an external device to use 4K or 8K. Bottom line is they designed a flawed product and sent it to market.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Define "shooting stills for an hour...." Wildlife shooters may take 100 pictures in an hour or zero. A wedding photographer is going to shoot what - a couple of thousand?



With a mirrorless camera it doesn't really matter. If the sensor is turned on the provide a signal for the EVF, it's generating heat whether a frame is captured or not.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

unfocused said:


> And yet, this "playing it safe" led them to dominate the market.



Until they were no longer dominating the market to the same degree as they previously had been dominating the market.


----------



## bbasiaga (Aug 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Be careful out there.
> 
> Lightning + camping can be a dangerous combination.


Definitely. Brush up on your lightning safety if you try any of this. I once read an article by a photographer. The cover picture was a lightning strike about 3' in front of the camera. The photogapher didn't know it happened until he was back home sorting the images. He was digging in his camera bag at the time. He was too close to that storm. 

-Brian


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> No need to. You have a massive 45MP sensor sitting in a small sealed box with zero ventilation, doing a full readout at 24/30 fps and encoding/recording it internally. It's a volcano. The EXTERNAL issue is something else. The camera is not really getting hot at all and shutting off after an hour in the same 4KHQ mode. It should be able to go longer. There's something firmware related that is being over protective, particularly with external recording







__





Canon EOS R5 records 4 hours of 4KHQ 30p to an external recorder, with a couple of simple tweaks


Wayne from No Life Digital has posted a video to his YouTube channel showing how he got the Canon EOS R5 to record 4 hours of 4KHQ 30p video to an Atomos Ninja V before the camera overheated. Simply by removing the memory cards from the camera while recording externally lead to a big boost in...




www.canonrumors.com


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

Etienne said:


> Canon Rumors attracts the largest group of stodgy, stuck in the past "photographers" who are angry that video has become more important than stills on the internet. You guys are worse than the crowd who insisted that no Pro would ever use autofocus in video, which has quickly become one of the most important video features in professional video cameras.
> Wake up and smell the coffee: these mirrorless cameras are HYBRID cameras. Their main selling point is that they do BOTH well. And video is obviously extremely important, if not the most important feature today, which Canon clearly demonstrated by focusing so strongly on the video features in the marketing hype.
> It's you stuck-in-the-past, "get your video features off of my lawn" dinosaurs who look increasingly unbalanced.



Canon spent most of their marketing hype on 12/20 fps, 8-stop IBIS, 5-series ergonomics and weather/dust resistance, etc.

It was the YouTube crowd that ignored all of that and could talk of nothing except 8K video...


----------



## tron (Aug 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Brits say nick-on, don't they? Doesn't really bother me.
> 
> - A


LOL I have 2 of them (D500 and D850) and I am not sure of the correct pronunciation but I do know that they are the best (actually the D850 is a very new and relatively untested yet but the D500 had thousands of clicks) for BIF with the 500mmPF 5.6E lens. 
P.S Believe it or not I also like 5DsR with 500mm f/4L IS II too for BIF but it is only convenient for short term use once in a while (and has a better use with 2XIII for static subjects if used from the inside of a car...)


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> This theory is not very well supported if you consider that R5 is capable of hours of recording to an external recorder with memory cards removed. It is either the card that is being a massive heat source or software is glitchy.






ahsanford said:


> So:
> 
> Writing to CF express generates a ton of heat? Don't the card manufacturers have to certify their speeds can be safely obtained without overheating, data errors, etc.? Are they only on the hook for demonstrating peak speed and not some ability to run consistently under certain operating limits? Has anyone put an IR gun or contact thermometer on their cards vs. other parts of the body to see that the cards are actually heating up to a greater degree than the body in general?
> 
> ...



Or maybe having that air passage between the processor and the memory card door (which may be more thermally conductive than other parts of the body) allows the camera to dissipate heat from the processor more easily?

Coming soon from third party vendors: Vented replacement card slot doors and miniature fans that fit in a CF Express card slot.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

yeahright said:


> Somewhat off-topic, but related to the discussion about video vs. stills in the current media landscape: I would honestly like to feel a bit less like a dinosaur and be able to embrace video, since apparently, many people find it more appealing than written information and/or still photography. However, I fail to grasp the appeal of many online videos; this is particular true of many youtube channels, where a lot of the content is simply someone sitting in a room talking about some topic that could also easily have been written down. These days, you can hardly find any product review, tutorial or whatnot that is not in video form. Most often I just don't see the added value, instead, for me there are typically several drawbacks:
> 
> * A written article is easy to cross-read and it is easy to skip the paragraphs that are clearly not of interest, because you can usually tell in a split second what a paragraph will be about - (almost) impossible in video. Usually you have to spend much more time watching parts of the video that don't actually interest you, because skipping parts is much more cumbersome.
> * Quite frequently some tiny bit of information is blown up to several minutes of video - people just don't come to the point quickly - probably because otherwise, the videos would be too short. Also, in writing you can e.g. include a table or a chart with much more in-depth information than you could include in a video. In video, many times I find that the information stays more superficial.
> ...



Laziness. It takes far less effort to turn on a camera and talk to it than it does to produce a written article that must be proofread for spelling and grammatical errors.

I get very frustrated when I am forced to spend 5-10 minutes watching a video to access content I could have read in ninety seconds.


----------



## chellm (Aug 7, 2020)

cfibanez said:


> He speaks too fast, and shows image examples for about 10 microseconds. Very irritating. He kept bla, bla, bla about video for 18 minutes. Only the last 5 minutes was (a bit) about still photography.
> 
> I found this review pretty terrible.



I agree - I did Cinecittà, Hollywood and Shepperton studios. This set is too dark (!), his script very superficial and interpreted too fast: only his friends of his block understand him. When you express a concept by word you must give time to people to understand, digest and be ready for the next one.. 
The result is all fired..
ahahaha


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

exige24 said:


> You want this headline back, Canon Rumors? Haha



Nope. Anything for clicks, comments, and ad traffic. It's the name of the game.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

Chromedbustop said:


> Much truth here. I learned that from Star Trek.  Well you don't have to over-deliver. Just give them what you already knew you could, but make it seem like it was a greater achievement. When you rely on hype, like so many businesses do, you're inevitably going to disappoint.



Aye, Captain. I'm giving you all she's got and a wee bit more!


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Well, that's not quite true. There are plenty of people who produce videos commercially who do not record everything to an external recorder. But, it really doesn't matter as Canon did not say that you had to record to an external device to use 4K or 8K. Bottom line is they designed a flawed product and sent it to market.



Most who produce videos commercially and who "film" continuously for longer than a few minutes use external power and external monitors if not external recorders on the cameras they use to record long, continuous takes. They use the untethered cameras for short takes on limited space shots and special effects.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Aug 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Every official press release issued by Canon mentioned still photo features ahead of video features. Every single one. Even the one that was planned to be made at the NAB trade show that is a video oriented trade show.
> 
> It wasn't Canon that ignored the remarkable still imaging features (12/20 fps at 45MP, 8-stop IBIS, 5-series level weather/dust resistance, etc.) and talked about nothing but video.
> 
> It was the idiots on YouTube who think every stills/video hybrid should be a way for them to get a Rolls-Royce level video camera for a Toyota price.


RIIIIIIIIIIGHTTTT......... if you see what you want to see. Stop the bullshit. The Camera is flawed and marketed it to video users. Stop defending an object like your life is on the line. Oh whats this..... https://www.canon-europe.com/press-centre/press-releases/2020/04/canon-eos-r5-specs-revealed/


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Laziness. It takes far less effort to turn on a camera and talk to it than it does to produce a written article that must be proofread for spelling and grammatical errors.
> 
> I get very frustrated when I am forced to spend 5-10 minutes watching a video to access content I could have read in ninety seconds.



LOL! You guys crack me up. Making fun of people's reviews because you don't like what they say about the cameras.
Then call them lazy yet you have no videos or articles yourselves. You want everything that only you want, and you want it all for free and you want it now.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> LOL! You guys crack me up. Making fun of people's reviews because you don't like what they say about the cameras.
> Then call them lazy yet you have no videos or articles yourselves. You want everything that only you want, and you want it all for free and you want it now.



This has nothing to do with cameras. It's for everything. News stories. Recipes. Quarterly earnings reports. Ad nauseum.

Believe it or not, there are delivery methods superior to "talking head videos" for many types of information. At least there is if your target audience is able to read critically.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> RIIIIIIIIIIGHTTTT......... if you see what you want to see. Stop the bullshit. The Camera is flawed and marketed it to video users. Stop defending an object like your life is on the line. Oh whats this..... https://www.canon-europe.com/press-centre/press-releases/2020/04/canon-eos-r5-specs-revealed/



First time I've seen that one.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Aug 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Read Canon's official press releases about the R5 and R6. They did lead with the stills features in every one of them. They always mentioned 12/20 fps, IBIS, two card slots, and 5-series level weather/dust resistance before talking about anything video related.
> 
> Unfortunately, the YouTube reviewers, not Canon, chose to ignore still image features and chose to talk only about the video features.


Haha, I didn't realise anyone read my comments in that much depth lol. Yes, your right every release did talk about the FPS, IBIS etc and all the headlines seemed to mention was 8K! 

But, as always, things like this are in the eye of the beholder as they say and I possibly fell into the trap like a lot of people. I'm not and never have been that interested in the video side of it as I'm only an occasional video shooter, so I still ordered the R5 and am really happy with it so far and not an asbestos glove or fire extinguisher to be seen.


----------



## Nelu (Aug 7, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> RIIIIIIIIIIGHTTTT......... if you see what you want to see. Stop the bullshit. The Camera is flawed and marketed it to video users. Stop defending an object like your life is on the line. Oh whats this..... https://www.canon-europe.com/press-centre/press-releases/2020/04/canon-eos-r5-specs-revealed/


WOW!
That article is just plain stupidity or blatant lies!


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Or maybe having that air passage between the processor and the memory card door (which may be more thermally conductive than other parts of the body) allows the camera to dissipate heat from the processor more easily?
> 
> Coming soon from third party vendors: Vented replacement card slot doors and miniature fans that fit in a CF Express card slot.


Michael, I did read a bit on CFExpress thermal throttle last night. First of, CFE cards generate tons of heat. Tons... secondly, once they reach a certain temperature, they Throttle themselves down to a lower read write speed. And that alone is a horrible news for a higher bandwidth video modes. so.. the sensor and Digic may handle the heat a great deal better then CFE. It seems that 8K30 record time limits will be difficult to improve Recording to CFE internally. 
p.s. however, Canon indicated that a lower bandwidth codecs are going to be introduced with a firmware update.


----------



## PureClassA (Aug 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're late to the party  LOL. Wayne dropped that on the CR Discord server a day or two before it landed in here. We've been tweeting him out all over to Gerald Undone and some others that have also jumped in. Carlos Quintero jumped in on his channel, ran his own R5 (which he already used on two commercial jobs) and came up with similar results. Exicting news all around


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Michael, I did read a bit on CFExpress thermal throttle last night. First of, CFE cards generate tons of heat. Tons... secondly, once they reach a certain temperature, they Throttle themselves down to a lower read write speed. And that alone is a horrible news for a higher bandwidth video modes. so.. the sensor and Digic may handle the heat a great deal better then CFE. It seems that 8K30 record time limits will be difficult to improve Recording to CFE internally.
> p.s. however, Canon indicated that a lower bandwidth codecs are going to be introduced with a firmware update.



That doesn't explain the limits for the R6, though, which only has two UHS II compliant SD card slots.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> You're late to the party  LOL. Wayne dropped that on the CR Discord server a day or two before it landed in here. We've been tweeting him out all over to Gerald Undone and some others that have also jumped in. Carlos Quintero jumped in on his channel, ran his own R5 (which he already used on two commercial jobs) and came up with similar results. Exicting news all around



So what you are saying is that your previous comment was made after you should have no longer been ignorant that what you said wasn't exactly the full truth?


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> That doesn't explain the limits for the R6, though, which only has two UHS II compliant SD card slots.


True. I am sure that we will find out what caused overheating in R6 sooner or later.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

Nelu said:


> WOW!
> That article is just plain stupidity or blatant lies!



What information in that press release is false?


----------



## Nelu (Aug 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> What information in that press release is false?


No,not that.
I'm pretty sure the article is legit.
The fact that Canon made those claims is either stupid or a blatant lie.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

Nelu said:


> No,not that.
> I'm pretty sure the article is legit.
> The fact that Canon made those claims is either stupid or a blatant lie.



What claim does Canon make that is a blatant lie?


----------



## ahsanford (Aug 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> What claim does Canon make that is a blatant lie?




Not a lie per se, but it's fairly idiotic to lead with "the camera will shoot comfortably on high end production sets"

- A


----------



## koenkooi (Aug 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Not a lie per se, but it's fairly idiotic to lead with "the camera will shoot comfortably on high end production sets"


... as a stills BTS camera


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> What claim does Canon make that is a blatant lie?


Apologies for jumping in, but this (and number of similarly juicy) bit is.. factually incorrect. not to be direct here 

... Set to redefine mirrorless, today’s update confirms the incredible recording capabilities of the EOS R5 including internal 8K RAW up to 29.97fps and *suitability with high-end production workflows*....
please note: not single * in the text with reference to possible limitations in relation to the specs of the camera.
let’s see:

....
*On the set of high-end productions such as commercials, dramas and documentaries, the EOS R5 is an ideal partner to the likes of Canon’s brand-new EOS C300 Mark III *– a next generation modular Cinema EOS System camera launched today. In addition to the EOS R5’s outstanding still photography specifications, which make it ideal for behind the scenes capture, *it’s an ideal support filming camera offering: *


8K RAW – non-cropped, internal recording up to 29.97fps
Non-cropped, internal recording 8K video capture – up to 29.97fps in 4:2:2 10-bit in Canon Log (H.265) or 4:2:2 10-bit HDR PQ (H.265)
Non-cropped internal recording 4K video capture – up to 119.88fps in 4:2:2 10-bit in Canon Log (H.265) or 4:2:2 10-bit HDR PQ (H.265)
4:2:2 10-bit in Canon Log or 4:2:2 10-bit HDR PQ output via HDMI at 4K 59.94fps
Dual Pixel AF is available in all video modes at all resolutions and frame rates
5 axis optical IBIS/ enabling Lens IS and camera IBIS to be combined
Dual card slots – 1x CFexpress and 1x SD UHS-II


----------



## Nelu (Aug 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> What claim does Canon make that is a blatant lie?


There you go:
“With its ability to record in cinema industry-standard formats and codecs, the EOS R5 is an ideal lead camera for many productions but also, given its compatibility with cinema workflows, the camera will shoot comfortably on high-end production sets.” 

I only shoot stills and I don't care about video at all but I can understand why the video people are pissed off now.
Canon can't claim what they did claim and then start providing the actual limitations in the user manual.
The camera can or cannot be used for "high-end production sets". It's as simple as that.
With these overheating limitations, it cannot be used for that purpose; at least not "comfortably".

There! I can't believe I've said that...


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Apologies for jumping in, but this (and number of similarly juicy) bit is.. factually incorrect. it to be direct here
> 
> ... Set to redefine mirrorless, today’s update confirms the incredible recording capabilities of the EOS R5 including internal 8K RAW up to 29.97fps and *suitability with high-end production workflows*....
> please note: not single * in the text with reference to possible limitations in relation to the specs of the camera.
> ...



Key words:

*"support filming camera"* rather than *"primary filming camera."* i.e. It's good as a B-roll/special effects/close quarters camera which typically are only used for short clips.

*"Ideal partner"* rather than *"replacement"* for the likes of the C300 Mark III. See above.

*"high-end production workflows"* include B-roll/special effects/close quarters secondary cameras that are not expected to perform at the same level for extended time periods as the primary cameras are.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

Nelu said:


> There you go:
> “With its ability to record in cinema industry-standard formats and codecs, the EOS R5 is an ideal lead camera for many productions but also, given its compatibility with cinema workflows, the camera will shoot comfortably on high-end production sets.”
> 
> I only shoot stills and I don't care about video at all but I can understand why the video people are pissed off now.
> ...



Key words:

*"Many productions"* rather than *"all productions"* or *"every single production in the history of cinematography."

"high-end production workflows" *include B-roll/special effects/close quarters secondary cameras that are not expected to perform at the same level for extended time periods as the primary cameras are.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Key words:
> 
> *"support filming camera"* rather than *"primary filming camera."* i.e. It's good as a B-roll/special effects/close quarters camera which typically are only used for short clips.
> 
> ...


the Following is IMO only. Multiple * are required that at least point out that all Of the above is subject to certain limitations. And look at the specs in the text. Not a single * again. A disclaimer was in order.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> the Following is IMO only. Multiple * are required that at least point out that all Of the above is subject to certain limitations. And looks at the specs in the text. Not a single * again. A disclaimer was in order.



How many folks bought an R5 in April?

How many folks bought an R5 in May, June, or prior to July 9?

Zero.

Disclaimers were released at the same time the product was officially announced and before it was available for purchase. No one was able to actually buy an R5 before said disclaimers were released.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Aug 7, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> RIIIIIIIIIIGHTTTT......... if you see what you want to see. Oh whats this..... https://www.canon-europe.com/press-centre/press-releases/2020/04/canon-eos-r5-specs-revealed/





Nelu said:


> WOW!
> That article is just plain stupidity or blatant lies!


Canon said it.


----------



## Nelu (Aug 7, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> Canon said it.


Yes, I know, unfortunately they did say all those things...
I don't care about video but that is dishonest marketing.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Aug 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> First time I've seen that one.





Nelu said:


> Yes, I know, unfortunately they did say all those things...
> I don't care about video but that is dishonest marketing.


Bingo but We had to wait until it got into people's hands and after news of overheating for them to reveal it all. So the camera is great and works but you need like 10 pages of disclaimers when it comes to all the video modes that werent included with the eos r. That wouldnt make many people feel comfortable.


----------



## scyrene (Aug 7, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> They must be aware but if this is a deliberate strategy to dumb down the video side, I would like to think after the horrendous publicity this has generated, they will be on the side of purchasers and make some correction to retain goodwill and future launches but correcting it will be a complicated decision for the various departments, the camera department will want it sorted asap but the cinema line will want it to stay as is to protect their market. Not a battle I would like to be in the middle of.



Why does it have to be a 'deliberate strategy to dumb down the video side' rather than protecting the internal components from excessive heat? Honestly, not everything is a malign conspiracy! We know Canon is a conservative company.



Starting out EOS R said:


> Been there and seen that. So frustrating though, especially when these cameras, as good as they are already, could blow away the competition if it was a simple firmware update.



We don't know it's that simple.


----------



## scyrene (Aug 7, 2020)

AlanF said:


> The corollary is that when you believe your own BS, you are finished.



Not before you can attain the highest office in the world, alas (apologies to all for even a hint of politics!).


----------



## slclick (Aug 7, 2020)

scyrene said:


> Why does it have to be a 'deliberate strategy to dumb down the video side' rather than protecting the internal components from excessive heat? Honestly, not everything is a malign conspiracy! We know Canon is a conservative company.
> 
> 
> 
> We don't know it's that simple.


Oh please, using reasonable and logical thoughts on CR?


----------



## StoicalEtcher (Aug 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> This has nothing to do with cameras. It's for everything. News stories. Recipes. Quarterly earnings reports. Ad nauseum.
> 
> Believe it or not, there are delivery methods superior to "talking head videos" for many types of information. At least there is if your target audience is able to read critically.


If I could give more than one 'thumbs up' to this sentiment, I would!


----------



## SteveC (Aug 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> This has nothing to do with cameras. It's for everything. News stories. Recipes. Quarterly earnings reports. Ad nauseum.
> 
> Believe it or not, there are delivery methods superior to "talking head videos" for many types of information. At least there is if your target audience is able to read critically.



I'd argue, in fact, that a video, _properly done_ can be the best way to talk about a camera, especially if you're talking about the video features, but even in stills, imagine showing what's going on in the viewfinder as one adjusts a setting (assuming, of course, it's an EVF!). 

But you might remember I nevertheless seconded the original gripe about people doing videos. Because so many are done that way, _inappropriately_, apparently out of laziness. 

Not inconsistent.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> the Following is IMO only. Multiple * are required that at least point out that all Of the above is subject to certain limitations. And look at the specs in the text. Not a single * again. A disclaimer was in order.



So canon has to put in asterisks everywhere leading to a footnote that says, "* Remember we said _support camera_, you doorknob."?


----------



## betokella (Aug 7, 2020)

nikkito said:


> well... i skipped like 18 minutes till he actually started talking about photography, which is all this camera is about (even if people keep forgetting it).
> 
> www.nicolaszonvi.com



Exactly. If that ratio holds, one would be paying too much for functions very seldom used... It feels photography was an after thought...


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Aug 7, 2020)

scyrene said:


> Why does it have to be a 'deliberate strategy to dumb down the video side' rather than protecting the internal components from excessive heat? Honestly, not everything is a malign conspiracy! We know Canon is a conservative company.
> 
> 
> 
> We don't know it's that simple.


Well, hey, I’m no expert on design or thermodynamics so maybe your right & it’s a genuine effort to protect the internals and the camera is actually at the maximum limits of the technology.

There are a few anomalies though that don’t add up.

Why can older and cameras manage to take thousands of stills without overheating, 1DXmkiii for example?

Why does the overheating warning appear & the camera stop recording when the card and battery are relatively cool?

Why does the camera stop recording in a higher resolution due to overheating but then immediately allow you to continue recording in a lower resolution like 4K 25 for an unlimited time. If it’s overheating then recording at a lower resolution or any kind of use is still going to generate heat so is it really overheating??

These are all things reported by different people, some may have an agenda, some may not so odds are some are telling the truth?

In reality none of these issues particularly bother me as I won’t shoot that many stills in one shoot and won’t use 4k30HQ, 4k60, 4k120 or 8k. I also have no idea if there is a solution or not. 

It does make you wonder though? The truth is out there?


----------



## SteveC (Aug 7, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Well, hey, I’m no expert on design or thermodynamics so maybe your right & it’s a genuine effort to protect the internals and the camera is actually at the maximum limits of the technology.
> 
> There are a few anomalies though that don’t add up.
> 
> ...



I'm going to speculate, but I am speculating based on my knowledge of physics.

Everything the camera does generates heat. But how fast does it generate heat? If the camera can shed heat faster than it generates it, then it's fine. So yes, the camera has to shut off a high-heat-generating-mode but will still allow you to use modes which generate less heat, if it's enough less that the camera can shed it at least as fast as it's generated.

But the speed at which something sheds heat is not a constant. The hotter it gets, the faster it sheds heat. This is why lighting a fire in the fireplace warms the room up, but not to the temperature of the fire. The room warms up to the point where it's losing heat energy as fast as the burning fuel generates it, and no further. This is thermal equilibrium.

So a mode like (for example) 1080p will generate a certain amount of heat. At room temperature, the camera does NOT shed heat at that rate, but at higher temperatures, it DOES shed heat at that rate. So the camera will climb to a certain temperature, and get no warmer, provided it continues doing the same thing--it has reached thermal equilibrium. Some modes bring it to just below the overheat threshold. The camera will stay there all day, until you switch to another mode that generates more heat--i.e., has a higher equilibrium temperature--the camera, knowing the temperature will now rise into the danger zone, says "nope" and shuts off.

A camera that has shut off is free to go into modes that generate less heat per second, than it sheds per second at the temperature it's at. The temperature will drop, a bit, to the new equilibrium, but trying to switch to a higher-heat mode would force the camera to shut off to save itself, because it's already pretty warm.


----------



## yeahright (Aug 8, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> LOL! You guys crack me up. Making fun of people's reviews because you don't like what they say about the cameras.
> Then call them lazy yet you have no videos or articles yourselves. You want everything that only you want, and you want it all for free and you want it now.


I have not even watched any R5/R6 review, so I don't know what they say about the cameras. Simply because I don't enjoy watching review videos.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 8, 2020)

SteveC said:


> So canon has to put in asterisks everywhere leading to a footnote that says, "* Remember we said _support camera_, you doorknob."?


Nuh, that would be overkill. Just a single asterisk at the tech specs header would suffice. It’s a common practice. In my opinion, Canon went a bit Gung Ho with this press release in particular.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Aug 8, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Nuh, that would be overkill. Just a single asterisk at the tech specs header would suffice. It’s a common practice. In my opinion, Canon went a bit Gung Ho with this press release in particular.


Agreed they should have been more transparent about the limitations in certain press releases. There would be much less controversy right now if they had. Personally I always thought the 8k Raw mode would be limited to 5 minute bursts.. so the fact we can get 20 minutes in ideal conditions is kinda cool. I think the thing that frustrates me the most though is that shooting a moderate amount of stills can lock you out of the high quality video modes. Forces you to shoot your video snippets at the start of the shoot day or use a second camera for stills at the start of the day.


----------



## slclick (Aug 8, 2020)

Haven't heard much from photographers using the R5, I guess they're shooting and editing and not typing on forums.


----------



## brad-man (Aug 8, 2020)

slclick said:


> Haven't heard much from photographers using the R5, I guess they're shooting and editing and not typing on forums.


How shellfish of them...


----------



## SteveC (Aug 8, 2020)

brad-man said:


> How shellfish of them...



Well I did just try some milky way astrophotography, using the RF 15-35 I bought the day after I got it. Pixel peeping revealed problems with what I was doing (not with the camera, at least I don't think so), but now the moon is out...so hopefully tomorrow night is as clear as tonight was.


----------



## AlanF (Aug 8, 2020)

slclick said:


> Haven't heard much from photographers using the R5, I guess they're shooting and editing and not typing on forums.


There are lots posted on FM - https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1656877/0
We need more images in general posted on CR. Come on guys and gals!


----------



## AlanF (Aug 8, 2020)

SteveC said:


> I'm going to speculate, but I am speculating based on my knowledge of physics.
> 
> Everything the camera does generates heat. But how fast does it generate heat? If the camera can shed heat faster than it generates it, then it's fine. So yes, the camera has to shut off a high-heat-generating-mode but will still allow you to use modes which generate less heat, if it's enough less that the camera can shed it at least as fast as it's generated.
> 
> ...


If it sheds heat faster than it generates it when it is working continuously, will it make a mini refrigerator?


----------



## Andy Westwood (Aug 8, 2020)

I agree with Canon Rumors Guy this is an excellent video to watch I’d already watched it prior to the post but I still enjoyed seeing it again.

A well-presented production with no quirks or gimmicks just the raw facts which might have been boring if not delivered in an enthusiastic, knowledgeable manor.

Such a shame it was only about the video side of the cameras but at least he was honest about that and didn’t try to be something he’s not.

I was shooting stills yesterday in a large apartment under tricky lighting conditions, heavily backlite by bright day light coming through the large diffused window blinds and lighting my model with gentle flash from an AD200 with a largish softbox as I didn’t want to blowout all that beautiful ambient light. My EOS R started off well shooting wide open at f/2.8 when the room light was good, the light started to fail but I could compensate with ISO.

What I couldn’t compensate for was how my R then struggled with eye AF in the lower light conditions, I’m optimistic that wouldn’t happen on the new R5 or R6 bodies.

I really want an R6 if my pennies allow, surprisingly my biggest camera store in town only had 6 pre orders for the R6 opposed to 15 for the R5. This they told me was reflective throughout all their UK stores, which I found interesting.


----------



## Antono Refa (Aug 8, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I generally agree. But, I have a problem with *any* company that offers *any* feature that isn't ready for prime time. I think it was more than a bad marketing decision. I think it was a bad engineering and design decision. No matter how many disclaimers you offer, it's no substitute for having a product that works. If they couldn't make these ridiculously high resolution and frame rate modes work, they should have just left them off.



What you're saying is that if Canon released the R5 without 8K video, it would have been a better camera than the R5 it actually released. Wow. And there I thought that, as a photographer who has zero interest in 4K & 8K video, I could just buy the R5 and use it as if it doesn't shoot 4K & 8K video. Damn, there went my upgrade plan down the sewer.


----------



## Eersel (Aug 8, 2020)

"I'm not a Sony Fanboy"

- A verified Sony Fanboy


----------



## unfocused (Aug 8, 2020)

Antono Refa said:


> What you're saying is that if Canon released the R5 without 8K video, it would have been a better camera than the R5 it actually released. Wow. And there I thought that, as a photographer who has zero interest in 4K & 8K video, I could just buy the R5 and use it as if it doesn't shoot 4K & 8K video. Damn, there went my upgrade plan down the sewer.


Your attempt at sarcasm falls flat.

Read some of my other comments.

The damage to Canon's carefully cultivated reputation has a price. Canon has built their reputation on reliability. They are not Sony. Canon buyers expect a product that works, and value that more highly than they do the latest gimmicks. Canon now has two choices -- spend a lot of money trying to repair the damage or hunker down and hope it goes away. Neither is a good option and neither is an option that they are happy about, especially given the financial and competitive pressures facing the camera market today.

They could have avoided these unwanted costs had they produced a better engineered product or if they were unable to produce a better engineered product taken a more conservative approach to the feature set. 

From a consumer standpoint, it might be nice to have these features, even with the restrictions. But from a company standpoint, it has been a very costly mistake that undermines more than a half-century of work that has gone into Canon's reputation.


----------



## Antono Refa (Aug 8, 2020)

unfocused said:


> The damage to Canon's carefully cultivated reputation has a price. Canon has built their reputation on reliability. They are not Sony. Canon buyers expect a product that works, and value that more highly than they do the latest gimmicks.



So the R5 is unreliable even if I don't shoot 8K and 4K? Damn!



unfocused said:


> Canon now has two choices -- spend a lot of money trying to repair the damage or hunker down and hope it goes away.



I think the 2nd option is great.



unfocused said:


> especially given the financial and competitive pressures facing the camera market today.



You mean from all those other cameras that can shoot 8K with no limitations, or limitations people can live with?



unfocused said:


> They could have avoided these unwanted costs had they produced a better engineered product or if they were unable to produce a better engineered product taken a more conservative approach to the feature set.



Again, do you claim that for my stated needs, the R5 is mis-engineered, not sufficiently conservative, or not an upgrade from my 5DmkIV?

Not even with the new RF 15-35mm f/2.8L IS USM (an upgrade from my EF 16-35mm f/2.8L IS-less USM) and EF 24-70mm f/2.8L IS USM (an upgrade from my EF 24-70mm f/2.8L IS-less USM)? Damn!



unfocused said:


> From a consumer standpoint, it might be nice to have these features, even with the restrictions.



No! That's not true! That's impossible!



unfocused said:


> But from a company standpoint, it has been a very costly mistake that undermines more than a half-century of work that has gone into Canon's reputation.



I'm a strange little photographer who cares about how well the camera fits his needs, enjoys nice to have figures, and take PR with a grain of salt*. As everyone else goes the other way, Canon is surely *******. Oh well, I'll switch brands when Canon goes bankrupt.

* Actually, I read criticism with a big bucket of popcorn and a soft drink. Where else can I do that, now that movie theaters are closed due to corona virus?


----------



## slclick (Aug 8, 2020)

There will be a hunkering!


----------



## cornieleous (Aug 8, 2020)

slclick said:


> Haven't heard much from photographers using the R5, I guess they're shooting and editing and not typing on forums.



Exactly, we are indeed already out enjoying it! A few test shots at the end of post for people who don't want to read my rambling.

The R5 is turning out to be the best hybrid on the market, period. It was designed for stills and short duty incredible video footage. The video crowd and those who form opinions from their favorite talking heads have had a bit of tunnel vision, and pile-on the negativity bandwagon attitude. Despite the mountain made of a mole hill, the camera is turning out to exceed all _reasonable_ expectations and be a true marvel when you get it out there and _use_ it. All the major features, combined with all the nuances of ergonomics make it truly great. It is another well thought out camera that doesn't deviate from the care of design that has kept me with Canon for my stills work for almost a decade (yep I own other brands for video, although those cameras are redundant a bit now and may get sold). My nerves during all these negative internet rantings are gone after using it- I can tell it is solid and going to do everything I need reliably and effortlessly.

Now on to photography and a couple quick test shots.

Shooting experience: I've only taken the R5 out for some real test photos in the world just last night. In two words: it's amazing.

Can handhold +4 stops more than previous cameras like 5D4 with the same lenses. It is quiet or silent depending on shutter mode.
I'm getting used to the small size and starting to love it.
The dial placements plus the control ring makes setting exposure so intuitive and fast.
Articulating screen makes weird shooting angles easy.
You can operate exposure basics from EVF, LCD screen, or top screen if you even feel the need to look ( I didn't).
Info display is robust and very customizable.
The workflow with the EVF is incredible. So smooth and quick to move focus points with the joystick compared to any previous Canon. Histrogram, focus peaking, exposure preview, distortion correction all in EVF, so no time wasted reviewing photos- I know what they will look like when I take them and may only review sharpness if at all- there seem to be no auto focus misses ever and I'm using older EF glass mostly. The EVF may not look like real life in many conditions like fast tracking, bright daylight, etc. but it is a very high quality image. In any type of medium or low light it is a way better that the OVF or LCD screen and the typical DSLR distortion. The preview of what images are going to look like overlaid with any control or info you may need is a major workflow improvement. Review inside the EVF is far superior to screens for spotting issues with taken images. Overall it is a more fun experience to get the shot when your fingers just move on the controls while you watch the shot you want come into shape in the EVF and take it effortlessly.
Focusing in almost complete dark is trivial, it just works. You can focus directly on stars with autofocus and it does as good a job as manual focus. You can see night images how they will look after long exposure and frame them in the EVF, no more guessing in the dark or blinding yourself and everyone around with a headlamp to spot and focus on foreground objects. The red focus highlights can tell you when foreground, stars, or both are good without zooming in all around parts of the frame in live view ore reviewing test shots. Same during the day, focus highlights are incredibly good on this camera.

Editing: CR3 is a non issue, extremely easy to convert to DNG in one click and get into bridge or LR/Photoshop, until we get native ACR support from Adobe.

The RAW files are _gorgeous_ with zero color noise, a ton of detail and crispness, and lots of room to crop. You could crop off 33% vertical and horizontal and still have a 6D sized file with less noise and more detail. The shadows push 3-4 stops with ease (not that this stupid metric matters directly) and for normal preserve highlight shooting you can almost completely skip any need for HDR stacks and get incredible results.

Here are a couple examples of my test shots reduced to 20% resolution. The full outputs you can zoom in for days and still see detail, the difference from 5D4 even though its only about 1/5 extra frame vertical and horizontal, still looks beautiful. These are not the most amazing photos or compositions as I had limited time to get to good scenes with decent conditions. Forgot the 5D4, was going to take test comparisons.



R5 + 24-105mm F4L Mk1, 1/80s, ISO 200, F10. Single exposure. The shadows and flowers were DARK almost black to preserve highlights and boosted about 2.5 stops in post, resulting in this awesome quality. Image is post processed but not super heavily.




R5 + 24mm Samyang , 15s, ISO 6400, F2.8. *Single exposure, *no long exposure niose reduction or darks used. Imagine what stacking for noise reducation will bring to night images with this camera. Again the detail is incredible. Noise in shadows has ZERO color problems, just a gradual loss of detail. It cleans up so much better than a couple generations ago and better than the 5D4. I'd say an easy full stop better than the 5D4 for noise and usable ISO in low light despite the large jump in sensor size. I'm confident I could shoot at 12800 if needed and use those files in many cases. Image is post processed but not super heavily.


----------



## slclick (Aug 8, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Exactly, we are indeed already out enjoying it! A few test shots at the end of post for people who don't want to read my rambling.
> 
> The R5 is turning out to be the best hybrid on the market, period. It was designed for stills and short duty incredible video footage. The video crowd and those who form opinions from their favorite talking heads have had a bit of tunnel vision, and pile-on the negativity bandwagon attitude. Despite the mountain made of a mole hill, the camera is turning out to exceed all _reasonable_ expectations and be a true marvel when you get it out there and _use_ it. All the major features, combined with all the nuances of ergonomics make it truly great. It is another well thought out camera that doesn't deviate from the care of design that has kept me with Canon for my stills work for almost a decade (yep I own other brands for video, although those cameras are redundant a bit now and may get sold). My nerves during all these negative internet rantings are gone after using it- I can tell it is solid and going to to everything I need reliably and effortlessly.
> 
> ...


Thank you, those are gorgeous images and your brief breakdown gave me more insight into it as a stills body than all of the teeth grinding and whining reviews and complaints have up to this point. Please do followups with more of your experiences and shots.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 8, 2020)

AlanF said:


> If it sheds heat faster than it generates it when it is working continuously, will it make a mini refrigerator?



I'm going to assume this isn't a joke. Nope, it will only shed heat as long as its warmer than what's around it. Heat "flows" from warmer to cooler.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 8, 2020)

slclick said:


> There will be a hunkering!



Do I detect a hankering for a hunkering?


----------



## David_E (Aug 8, 2020)

Terrible marketing? When Canon is unable to meet demand for bodies or accessories? A pox on Internet camera critics, all of them. I’ll choose for myself, and thus far my R5 looks like a very wise choice—_for me_.


----------



## David_E (Aug 8, 2020)

AlanF said:


> _If it sheds heat faster than it generates it when it is working continuously, will it make a mini refrigerator?_


We had better hope not, because if it radiates faster than it generates, it will lead to the heat death of the Universe.


----------



## AlanF (Aug 8, 2020)

SteveC said:


> I'm going to assume this isn't a joke. Nope, it will only shed heat as long as its warmer than what's around it. Heat "flows" from warmer to cooler.


It was a light hearted joke. But, if you assume it isn't a joke then I will be serious. According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, heat does indeed flow from warmer to cooler and not vice versa. But, if work is done on a system, like discharging a battery, then heat can flow from colder to warmer. That is how refrigerators work - they use electrical energy to pump heat from the cold interior to the warmer exterior. Heat pumps are similar.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 8, 2020)

David_E said:


> Terrible marketing? When Canon is unable to meet demand for bodies or accessorie? A pox on Internet camera critics, all of them. I’ll choose for myself, and thus far my R5 looks like a very wise choice—_for me_.



It is honestly a camera far better than its owner, in my case. Which is a good thing; it's a heck of a lot easier to learn with a tool that works well and doesn't have to be fought, or its limitations overcome, every step of the way.


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## David_E (Aug 8, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> _Exactly, we are indeed already out enjoying it! A few test shots at the end of post for people who don't want to read my rambling._


I enjoyed reading your ”rambling.” My experience with the R5 parallels yours, _except_ that your photos are waaay better the ones I have made to date.


----------



## AlanF (Aug 8, 2020)

David_E said:


> We had better hope not, because if it radiates faster than it generates, it will lead to the heat death of the Universe.


Do your bit for humankind and turn off your fridge or icebox to prolong the life of the universe. In the short term, you will slow down global warming.


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## SteveC (Aug 8, 2020)

David_E said:


> We had better hope not, because if it radiates faster than it generates, it will lead to the heat death of the Universe.



That can happen, if heat generation stops, you'll see a temporary situation where radiation continues to happen faster than the new rate of generation. But you'd be correct in surmising that can't stay true indefinitely!


----------



## David_E (Aug 8, 2020)

SteveC said:


> _That can happen, if heat generation stops, you'll see a temporary situation where radiation continues to happen faster than the new rate of generation. But you'd be correct in surmising that can't stay true indefinitely!_


I have alerted my fellow cosmologists. There goes the 2.725 K Cosmic Background Radiation!


----------



## SteveC (Aug 8, 2020)

David_E said:


> I have alerted my fellow cosmologists. There goes the 2.725 K Cosmic Background Radiation!



Oh, believe me, not an issue there! It's behaving exactly as theory expects.

In fact it's such a perfect black body wavelength distribution that when the data were first presented the audience gave it a standing ovation.

Edited to clarify: I was talking about situations where, say, you heat a pot of water...then you stop heating it. It radiates heat far faster than you're dumping heat into it, then. But it won't radiate heat faster than you're heating it, _while you're heating it._


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## David_E (Aug 9, 2020)

SteveC said:


> I was talking about situations where, say, you heat a pot of water...then you stop heating it. It radiates heat far faster than you're dumping heat into it, then. But it won't radiate heat faster than you're heating it, _while you're heating it._


Or so we hope. But we’re not talking about a mere 373 K; we’re talking about the R5, which, if the alarmists are to be believed, defies the laws of thermodynamics and generates Big Bang temperatures before you even unpack it.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 9, 2020)

David_E said:


> Or so we hope. But we’re not talking about a mere 373 K; we’re talking about the R5, which, if the alarmists are to be believed, defies the laws of thermodynamics and generates Big Bang temperatures before you even unpack it.



Yeah, I had to rush to the camera store and pick mine up...so it wouldn't burn their shop down. Aren't I a wonderful person willing to make such sacrifices?


----------



## SteveC (Aug 9, 2020)

David_E said:


> Or so we hope. But we’re not talking about a mere 373 K; we’re talking about the R5, which, if the alarmists are to be believed, defies the laws of thermodynamics and generates Big Bang temperatures before you even unpack it.



Still, I think I got a sunburn from the UV blackbody radiation coming off the thing.


----------



## HenryL (Aug 9, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Exactly, we are indeed already out enjoying it! A few test shots at the end of post for people who don't want to read my rambling.
> 
> The R5 is turning out to be the best hybrid on the market, period. It was designed for stills and short duty incredible video footage. The video crowd and those who form opinions from their favorite talking heads have had a bit of tunnel vision, and pile-on the negativity bandwagon attitude. Despite the mountain made of a mole hill, the camera is turning out to exceed all _reasonable_ expectations and be a true marvel when you get it out there and _use_ it. All the major features, combined with all the nuances of ergonomics make it truly great. It is another well thought out camera that doesn't deviate from the care of design that has kept me with Canon for my stills work for almost a decade (yep I own other brands for video, although those cameras are redundant a bit now and may get sold). My nerves during all these negative internet rantings are gone after using it- I can tell it is solid and going to do everything I need reliably and effortlessly.
> 
> ...


Very well said, and beautiful images - thanks for sharing! Your experience pretty much aligns with mine so far. Between work and weather, I haven't had many opportunities to get out too far from home so I've mostly been playing around in the yard and local park. Chasing dragonflies is exasperating haha.

My son stopped by this afternoon and he was checking out the new camera. We started talking about how customizable this camera is. I've had many DSLR's - 10D, 20D, 30D, 50D, both 7D's and every 5D except the Mk II. I have always set them up the same way in large part because they were limited in the beginning as to what you could do with them. Then, as they had more and more ways to customize the controls, I still just set them up as I always did because, well, I always did it that way. 

With the R5, I'm purposely not repeating that. Instead, I'm moving functions around to different buttons, trying them out and slowly getting the most used items to the controls that naturally lay at my fingertips or somewhere where they make sense for the way I use them. I fumble every now and then and forget that I moved this function or that, but each time out it's a bit better. Hopefully by the time I get some good weather/good light, I'll have this thing tuned just right and I can make my masterpiece!

I find this camera feels great in the hand. I never thought the 5D series was too large, actually preferred it to the xxD series and those felt puny after I got used to the 5D. But, after only a few hours, the smaller R5 is a great fit and the larger DSLR (down to only a 7DII now) feels kind of bulky. The controls are laid out extremely well, the contours are very comfortable, and to me it feels larger than it really is (in a good way). It kind of pains me to say it, but every time I look over at my 7DII sitting on the shelf I feel a twinge of sadness because I honestly may never pick it up again except to sell it and add to the RF lens fund.

So far I've used it with the EF 24-70L II, 100-400 II with and without the 1.4x III and yesterday I picked up the RF35. My favorite, though, is the RF 50 - it feels great and balances perfectly. Now I am just waiting for deals/rebates on the RF85 to complete my prime set, then to slowly replace my EF 2.8 trinity. 

Needless to say, I'm super happy with the R5 and looking forward to using it for my wildlife photography as well as learning new genres (like your Milky Way photo above) and macro as well as getting back to portraits (been over a decade!).

Cheers - now go take pictures!


----------



## reefroamer (Aug 9, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Nuh, that would be overkill. Just a single asterisk at the tech specs header would suffice. It’s a common practice. In my opinion, Canon went a bit Gung Ho with this press release in particular.


It just reads like every other press release ever. It talks about the good stuff and ignores the negatives. By carefully choosing subjective wording (“comfortably”) they steer clear of outright falsehoods. It’s marketing. Always to be taken with a grain of salt. No company ever announces a new product by leading with its limitations. That's what fine print and 900-page product manuals are for. As a former corporate media/PR rep, I can 100% guarantee you that Canon's lawyers scrutinized ever single word of these press releases and even changed words as needed to ensure they could be defended. The legal departments always have to reign in the marketing stuff.


----------



## David_E (Aug 9, 2020)

AlanF said:


> ..._turn off your fridge_...


Fridge? As in refrigerator? You have a refrigerator!?


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 9, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> It just reads like every other press release ever. It talks about the good stuff and ignores the negatives. By carefully choosing subjective wording (“comfortably”) they steer clear of outright falsehoods. It’s marketing. Always to be taken with a grain of salt. *No company ever announces a new product by leading with its limitations. *That's what fine print and 900-page product manuals are for. As a former corporate media/PR rep, I can 100% guarantee you that Canon's lawyers scrutinized ever single word of these press releases and even changed words as needed to ensure they could be defended. The legal departments always have to reign in the marketing stuff.


Sir, I am not arguing your former corporate media/PR rep position, but being an enterprise services account executive for a very large Multinational and a qualified business practitioner, I would like to prove my point and disprove your point that NO company ever announce a new product by leading with limitations. For simplicity. Here is a a Sony camera announcement. There are 22 limitations in total listed in the press release.

have a read and hopefully reconsider:









Sony’s New Full-frame α7R III Interchangeable Lens Camera Delivers the Ultimate Combination of Resolution and Speed


Innovative Full-frame Mirrorless Model Offers 42.4 MP High-Resolution, 10 fps Continuous Shooting, Fast and Precise AF Performance in a Compact Body 35mm...




presscentre.sony.eu





and here is Nikon D6 press release with a number of limitations listed in there:





__





Nikon | News | Nikon releases the D6 digital SLR camera






www.nikon.com


----------



## HenryL (Aug 9, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Sir, I am not arguing your former corporate media/PR rep position, but being an enterprise services account executive for a very large Multinational and a qualified business practitioner, I would like to prove my point and disprove your point that NO company ever announce a new product by leading with limitations. For simplicity. Here is a a Sony camera announcement. There are 22 limitations in total listed in the press release.
> 
> have a read and hopefully reconsider:
> 
> ...


Those footnotes aren't necessarily "limitations", some are, but for example in the Sony it clarifies what standard is used to justify EyeAF claim and that's not a functional limitation as we typically think of them. I think I get your point though. 

Of course, not to be outdone, Canon lists 29.  I linked to Canon Australia since the US site is still MIA. I'm sure the US site has different footnotes, as will EU site and others. And before anybody piles on...no, I didn't read the whole thing and I personally am not concerned about video specs or performance. I don't know if Canon AU addressed heat limitations on video, nor do I care. Point to this comment relates to what and how companies disclose certain information, and that is all.
https://www.canon.com.au/about-cano...-r6-unrivalled-performance-endless-creativity


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## SecureGSM (Aug 9, 2020)

Canon a Europe however, quite contrary to the Link. you have provided. Not a single limitation mentioned. Not a single footnote. None. See the link: 





More Canon EOS R5 specs revealed – “the camera will shoot comfortably on high-end production sets” - Canon Press Centre - Canon Europe







www.canon-europe.com





However, I am disagree with the following point made by the reefroamer:

*No company ever announces a new product by leading with its limitations.*

They absolutely do include some footnotes in press releases. As per the link you have provided


----------



## jeffa4444 (Aug 9, 2020)

We have a wealth of Youtube reviewers none of whom generally will test equipment in the way Lens Rentals would, or Arri Rentals, or Clairmont Camera, or Otto Nemitz or Panavision etc. Yet they are the self-proclaimed experts that failed to read the limitations that Canon published and failed to realise these are stills first & video second cameras. 
They equally forget these cameras are in a totally different price point to Cinema EOS cameras and Cinealta cameras both of which ARE DESIGNED FOR PRODUCTION VIDEO first. 
Im sure Canon have been stung by the complaints and you can bet they will have firmware improvement going forwards. But every cinema camera whether from Red, Arri, Panasonic, Black Magic or Sony Etc through its lifetime gets numerous firmware improvements. One of the best current high end video cameras is the Sony Venice, this was limited in its functions when it first appeared and had a few minor teething issues, nothing unusual about that. Now its a key camera on Netflix, Amazon, HBO, Disney etc. high end shows. Don't think either that high end video cameras with fans never overheat, they do if the set is hot enough and they shut down. 
If you shoot video and rarely shoot stills, buy a video camera, if you mainly shoot stills & a bit of video buy the R5 & the R6. I know I will be replacing my 5DS with the R5 and my 6D MKII with the R6 just as soon as cameras are available or in stock.


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## jeffa4444 (Aug 9, 2020)

Etienne said:


> Canon Rumors attracts the largest group of stodgy, stuck in the past "photographers" who are angry that video has become more important than stills on the internet. You guys are worse than the crowd who insisted that no Pro would ever use autofocus in video, which has quickly become one of the most important video features in professional video cameras.
> Wake up and smell the coffee: these mirrorless cameras are HYBRID cameras. Their main selling point is that they do BOTH well. And video is obviously extremely important, if not the most important feature today, which Canon clearly demonstrated by focusing so strongly on the video features in the marketing hype.
> It's you stuck-in-the-past, "get your video features off of my lawn" dinosaurs who look increasingly unbalanced.


I work professionally in video, our clients are the top US studios and international broadcasters and we operate in multiple countries. One of our business units rents stills & video cameras so your comments are childish and inaccurate. The people that are at fault are the ones NOT reading the limitations Canon openly published, thinking paying £ 4,150 / $ 4,000 gets you a production ready video camera, it doesn't. The Sony R7S III is a great value for money video camera first hybrid cameras but it would not hold the resolution the R5 has and is not meant too for stills. Equally the R5 is not as capable as the R7S III in video and is aimed at an insert type video style in some modes. Yet we have people comparing the two cameras that are video shooters and saying "what a bad video camera the R5 & R6 are". Now tell me who are the unbalanced ones? Right tool for the right job.


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## Etienne (Aug 9, 2020)

jeffa4444 said:


> I work professionally in video, our clients are the top US studios and international broadcasters and we operate in multiple countries. One of our business units rents stills & video cameras *so your comments are childish and inaccurate.* The people that are at fault are the ones NOT reading the limitations Canon openly published, thinking paying £ 4,150 / $ 4,000 gets you a production ready video camera, it doesn't. The Sony R7S III is a great value for money video camera first hybrid cameras but it would not hold the resolution the R5 has and is not meant too for stills. Equally the R5 is not as capable as the R7S III in video and is aimed at an insert type video style in some modes. Yet we have people comparing the two cameras that are video shooters and saying "what a bad video camera the R5 & R6 are". Now tell me who are the unbalanced ones? Right tool for the right job.



I work professionally in video and film with A-listers on blockbusters and more, and I disagree with you which proves that you are childish and immature. 
So there.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 9, 2020)

scyrene said:


> Not before you can attain the highest office in the world, alas (apologies to all for even a hint of politics!).



When did Warren Buffet become _finished_?


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## Baron_Karza (Aug 9, 2020)

Nice!

What Bortle class was this shot in? 
This would help us better understand the quality of the camera.




cornieleous said:


> R5 + 24-105mm F4L Mk1, 1/80s, ISO 200, F10. Single exposure. The shadows and flowers were DARK almost black to preserve highlights and boosted about 2.5 stops in post, resulting in this awesome quality. Image is post processed but not super heavily.
> 
> 
> View attachment 191990
> ...


----------



## Fischer (Aug 9, 2020)

Simply do not get all the fuss about the reviews. The ones I have seen (quite a few) all seem spot on.

Do not care much for video myself. Iphone is all the video I need. However, a lot of people do care and for them the R5 and R6 have severe limitations that need to be better understood. Of course any sane review would highlight this issue as it is central to how many people want/had hoped to use the two cameras.. Everything else is more or less as expected. Nice stuff such as IBIS, a little improved DR, more fps, more MPIX etc. Not a lot to discuss here except get some confirmation and enjoy the excellent pictures the two can take.

Now if there was overheating just shooting stills - that would be worth exploring a lot too...


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## Ben Sparrow (Aug 10, 2020)

For video purposes only, basically for the same money, I prefer the Canon EOS C200B over the R5. 4K 12 bit RAW for under $4000 is the best image you can possibly get as of today. But it all depends on your needs. I do not have any photograph needs because I have the Canon EOS R whenever needed. I think Gerald did a great job with this video. I have been a subscriber of his channel for over a year.


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## Skux (Aug 10, 2020)

If they marketed it as a stills camera no one would care. I certainly don't; my 5D3 still takes amazing images. So they banked on unusable 8k and 4k120 which backfired.

What a shame, these cameras are great for photographers, but terrible for anyone who wants to do even the slightest bit of video work.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 10, 2020)

Skux said:


> If they marketed it as a stills camera no one would care. I certainly don't; my 5D3 still takes amazing images. So they banked on unusable 8k and 4k120 which backfired.
> 
> What a shame, these cameras are great for photographers, but terrible for anyone who wants to do even the slightest bit of video work.



You're overstating that. You're assuming that anyone wanting to do video work will want to do it in 8K or 4K120P or 4KHQ.


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## Starting out EOS R (Aug 10, 2020)

Skux said:


> If they marketed it as a stills camera no one would care. I certainly don't; my 5D3 still takes amazing images. So they banked on unusable 8k and 4k120 which backfired.
> 
> What a shame, these cameras are great for photographers, but terrible for anyone who wants to do even the slightest bit of video work.


That's a very broad statement and not entirely correct, there limitations at the higher end of the resolution but there are several video modes equivalent and higher than many current cameras that are absolutely fine, 1080, 4k25p un cropped etc and these will meet the needs of many people.


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## Skux (Aug 10, 2020)

SteveC said:


> You're overstating that. You're assuming that anyone wanting to do video work will want to do it in 8K or 4K120P or 4KHQ.



Plenty of people will be wanting to reliably use 4KHQ/oversampled and 4K60 modes for professional work, which both have severe limitations.


----------



## Kit. (Aug 10, 2020)

Skux said:


> If they marketed it as a stills camera no one would care. I certainly don't; my 5D3 still takes amazing images.


I do, my 5D2 is past its service life.

Besides, its autofocus sucks, its connectivity sucks, and its low light performance could be better.


----------



## Andy Westwood (Aug 10, 2020)

BE QUICK! In the UK and want a good as new R5 at a great price

I just looked at Wex and there is an OB (Open Box) R5 in the used section with over £400 off all the pre-order UK prices just added this morning, I was shocked when I saw it.

I’m holding out for an R6 there isn’t as many as I thought on the pre-order list for both camera bodies.

Have Canon pitched the RRP of these camera’s too high or is it the global pandemic, some negative press, or a bit of everything?


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Aug 10, 2020)

Andy Westwood said:


> BE QUICK! In the UK and want a good as new R5 at a great price
> 
> I just looked at Wex and there is an OB (Open Box) R5 in the used section with over £400 off all the pre-order UK prices just added this morning, I was shocked when I saw it.
> 
> ...


That's a very handy discount! I don't think the overheating controversy is helping. Maybe some people have bought and then decided it doesn't meet their needs?


----------



## quilatoo (Aug 10, 2020)

Damn that's mightily tempting at 10% off!


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Aug 10, 2020)

Kit. said:


> I do, my 5D2 is past its service life.
> 
> Besides, its autofocus sucks, its connectivity sucks, and its low light performance could be better.


Well, if it's stills you want, from my initial use over the last week, the R5 will certainly float your boat, the AF is amazing and a leap forward from the R. The connectivity is pretty good through wifi and bluetooth as well. I haven't tried it yet in low light but from several reviews, the low light performance is pretty good too.


----------



## Kit. (Aug 10, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Well, if it's stills you want, from my initial use over the last week, the R5 will certainly float your boat, the AF is amazing and a leap forward from the R. The connectivity is pretty good through wifi and bluetooth as well. I haven't tried it yet in low light but from several reviews, the low light performance is pretty good too.


I tried it today in the shop. It's a bit less comfortable to hold and use than the 5D series DSLR (for someone with big hands), but it's the first mirrorless camera where the EVF didn't look unnatural even during panning.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 10, 2020)

Kit. said:


> I tried it today in the shop. It's a bit less comfortable to hold and use than the 5D series DSLR (for someone with big hands), but it's the first mirrorless camera where the EVF didn't look unnatural even during panning.



I don't have terribly large hands but the "hump" that the thumb is supposed to go to the left of does feel as if it's slanted wrong or something.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Aug 10, 2020)

SteveC said:


> I don't have terribly large hands but the "hump" that the thumb is supposed to go to the left of does feel as if it's slanted wrong or something.


I must be unusual as I've had several different cameras from 7DMKII with grip to R to R5 and although all different, they were all comfortable to hold and access various buttons after a short period of acclimatisation. I found coming from the R that as all the buttons and the lens control ring can be customised, I never used the Touch Bar and find I don't use the rear wheel that was transferred from the 5D very much, apart from when changing settings or viewing images.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Aug 11, 2020)

Etienne said:


> I work professionally in video and film with A-listers on blockbusters and more, and I disagree with you which proves that you are childish and immature.
> So there.


Good luck filming A-listers on blockbusters with anything like the Sony A7S III. Actually name one film you have worked on where a hybrid camera was the hero camera? Right now they are being shot on the Arri Mini LF, Alexa LF, Sony Venice, Red Dragon, Red Ranger, Panavision DXL2 etc. 
Hybrid cameras maybe used for shots in car chases or stunts or hard to get to places but almost never as principle cameras.


----------



## reefroamer (Aug 11, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Sir, I am not arguing your former corporate media/PR rep position, but being an enterprise services account executive for a very large Multinational and a qualified business practitioner, I would like to prove my point and disprove your point that NO company ever announce a new product by leading with limitations. For simplicity. Here is a a Sony camera announcement. There are 22 limitations in total listed in the press release.
> 
> have a read and hopefully reconsider:
> 
> ...


Well, you got me there. I appreciate your feedback. But all those footnotes are really ugly, like a pharma ad. If that many are needed, it would be worthwhile to consider rewording a bit, IMHO. But my spear was a little over sharpened in my comment. Canon could have avoided a lot of the thrashing by pro-actively handling it at announcement. EG, “We decided to include these amazing video modes even though their use is time-constrained by thermal factors. It was our primary goal to create a high-resolution sensor in a compact, weather-sealed camera body desired by so many of our customers.” Something like that. Best to acknowledge the issue and get your own spin on it first. Hope for a soft landing. This one landed pretty hard.


----------



## slclick (Aug 12, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> Well, you got me there. I appreciate your feedback. But all those footnotes are really ugly, like a pharma ad. If that many are needed, it would be worthwhile to consider rewording a bit, IMHO. But my spear was a little over sharpened in my comment. Canon could have avoided a lot of the thrashing by pro-actively handling it at announcement. EG, “We decided to include these amazing video modes even though their use is time-constrained by thermal factors. It was our primary goal to create a high-resolution sensor in a compact, weather-sealed camera body desired by so many of our customers.” Something like that. Best to acknowledge the issue and get your own spin on it first. Hope for a soft landing. This one landed pretty hard.


I haven't read one negative thing about the R5 body by those who ignore the video features. Hard landing? Not for most. If you were banking on this body being your money maker for film, you MUST have a different A camera. Why would you bank on a hybrid doing it all?


----------



## reefroamer (Aug 12, 2020)

slclick said:


> I haven't read one negative thing about the R5 body by those who ignore the video features. Hard landing? Not for most. If you were banking on this body being your money maker for film, you MUST have a different A camera. Why would you bank on a hybrid doing it all?


Hey, I’m no video guy at all. But video is the emerging/growing market and Canon understands that. They didn’t just toss those modes on there for people like me. They want a piece of what Sony and others are getting, and the R5/6 show that. I love it, but mIt’s obvious at least some of the video crowd is disappointed. There are other tools for them, too. But I think inside of Canon there is some re-thinking of they way they drove the announcement. They could have played their cards a little better. But in the end, the R5 was going to be what it is. I would guess they expected a better reception from videographers.


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## slclick (Aug 12, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> Hey, I’m no video guy at all. But video is the emerging/growing market and Canon understands that. They didn’t just toss those modes on there for people like me. They want a piece of what Sony and others are getting, and the R5/6 show that. I love it, but mIt’s obvious at least some of the video crowd is disappointed. There are other tools for them, too. But I think inside of Canon there is some re-thinking of they way they drove the announcement. They could have played their cards a little better. But in the end, the R5 was going to be what it is. I would guess they expected a better reception from videographers.


Still, it's a case of YMMV in the largest sense. If I was to buy one, I bet I'd have no issues. The video moaning suggests this is a fail on all fronts, which it is not. It's just not the One Ring To Rule Them All. You know why? There will never be such a thing, yet consumers want and wish for one every.single.launch.


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## SecureGSM (Aug 12, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> Well, you got me there. I appreciate your feedback. But all those footnotes are really ugly, like a pharma ad. If that many are needed, it would be worthwhile to consider rewording a bit, IMHO. But my spear was a little over sharpened in my comment. Canon could have avoided a lot of the thrashing by pro-actively handling it at announcement. EG, “We decided to include these amazing video modes even though their use is time-constrained by thermal factors. It was our primary goal to create a high-resolution sensor in a compact, weather-sealed camera body desired by so many of our customers.” Something like that. Best to acknowledge the issue and get your own spin on it first. Hope for a soft landing. This one landed pretty hard.


That I agree with you. Absolutely.And thank you for writing back on this issue. As I previously posted: in my opinion, Canon did went a bit Gung Ho with this press release and in particular high end production readiness references. The language they used is questionable in some parts of the text, as you pointed out. So.., thank you!


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