# Why does everything frontfocus when using OCF?



## Viggo (Jun 11, 2017)

Hi guys!

I've been using Godox ad360, Profoto B1 and now I'm borrowing a ad600 whilst waiting for my Broncolor Siros 800L to arrive. My question is;

Why on earth does every picture using an Off Camera Flash result in frontfocus?? Any lens is the same. Everything is spot on as soon as I turn the trigger off and take shot without flash. Only option to get correctly focuses shots with OCF is by using LV, and I'm so tired of this.....


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## Ray-uk (Jun 11, 2017)

Could it be that you have flash AF assist enabled and it is confusing the AF, try turning it off.


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## Viggo (Jun 11, 2017)

Ray-uk said:


> Could it be that you have flash AF assist enabled and it is confusing the AF, try turning it off.



Not sure how it can affect when it's not lighting up, but just checked and it's indeed turned off in camera.


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## Ray-uk (Jun 11, 2017)

In that case it must be that your ambient light levels are too low to obtain correct focus, LV focus is using a different focus system so that isn't being affected. Try increasing the permanent light level in your room apart from the flash.


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## IglooEater (Jun 11, 2017)

Ray-uk said:


> In that case it must be that your ambient light levels are too low to obtain correct focus, LV focus is using a different focus system so that isn't being affected. Try increasing the permanent light level in your room apart from the flash.



I second that. Or, better yet, bring the whole kit and kaboodle out into the sunshine and see if it still does it.


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## Viggo (Jun 11, 2017)

IglooEater said:


> Ray-uk said:
> 
> 
> > In that case it must be that your ambient light levels are too low to obtain correct focus, LV focus is using a different focus system so that isn't being affected. Try increasing the permanent light level in your room apart from the flash.
> ...



I AM outside, that's where I use my flash 98% of the time, and usually during pretty optimal light midday. And as soon as I turn the lamp off, everything sticks and is perfectly sharp.


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## Ray-uk (Jun 11, 2017)

Ok so we are running out of things to blame, what are you using to trigger the off camera flash.


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## Viggo (Jun 11, 2017)

Ray-uk said:


> Ok so we are running out of things to blame, what are you using to trigger the off camera flash.



I used the included trigger with the ad360, and then the CellsII-c, I used the Profoto AirRemoteTTL-c with the B1 and now the Godox X1t-c with the Ad600. It's the same, and with every lens... and with the 1dx and the 1dx2. 

I'm kind of hopin git has something to do with HSS that goes away with the Broncolor that doesn't use pulses, but very long flash duration.


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## Ray-uk (Jun 11, 2017)

I'm not sure the Broncolor works like that because the specs state the longest duration is 1/250 sec, the HS facility is controlled by the RFS 2.2 trigger so it must pulse it.

Anyway that aside, have you tried turning off the HSS and use ordinary synch with the shutter at 1/125.


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## Viggo (Jun 11, 2017)

Ray-uk said:


> I'm not sure the Broncolor works like that because the specs state the longest duration is 1/250 sec, the HS facility is controlled by the RFS 2.2 trigger so it must pulse it.
> 
> Anyway that aside, have you tried turning off the HSS and use ordinary synch with the shutter at 1/125.



1/250s should anyways be long enough, since it needs the new trigger to optimize timing. The same way Elinchrom and PW does, only easier from what I read. I also contacted Broncolor and asked about this and if the HS shortens the lifespan of the tube, and they said it didn't because it was the same as using it on full power.

I have tried syncspeed also, but I can't test in the same way since I need to stop way down at the same situation. Using nd-filters will certainly make it even worse for the AF. So the thing that comes closest is to turn the lamp off, and then it works pretty great.

If I use -1 afma with soccer practice it works, but +2 doesn't , and -1 is way in front with the lamp. Otherwise pretty consistent.

I will put up an example, but my server is being worked on, so no access just now. Thanks for all the replies so far


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## hne (Jun 11, 2017)

Does it still front-focus if you leave the radio-controlled flash somewhere where it doesn't affect the image at all? It should just pop on max if you do, no matter what you set FEC to. At least nothing light-related would influence the image. I could imagine a possibility where preflashes could be influencing tracking AF, now that the higher end Canons use data from the metering sensor also for AF purposes.

I've not seen it on any of my cameras, only a heavy ND with 1.8 density (6 stops, for large-aperture video) does similar things in my camera bags.


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## Viggo (Jun 11, 2017)

hne said:


> Does it still front-focus if you leave the radio-controlled flash somewhere where it doesn't affect the image at all? It should just pop on max if you do, no matter what you set FEC to. At least nothing light-related would influence the image. I could imagine a possibility where preflashes could be influencing tracking AF, now that the higher end Canons use data from the metering sensor also for AF purposes.
> 
> I've not seen it on any of my cameras, only a heavy ND with 1.8 density (6 stops, for large-aperture video) does similar things in my camera bags.



It seems like it's only when the flash lights the subject, I only use it manual, so no ETTL here at all. Interesting about the preflash, but nothing lights up before focus is locked though. And it's the same with both one shot and servo.


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## Viggo (Jun 11, 2017)

So I just tried every possible combination in a very dim lit room (no modellight on either), every focusing point including non-cross, in one shot and servo. Every power in the lamp at all shutters from sync to 1/8000s and every single shot is in perfect focus. So this issue is due to the surroundings and perhaps limited to faces and outdoors.

So, the gear works in a controlled situation with little ambient, but struggles big time outside in any bright light. Does that make any sense?


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## Viggo (Jun 11, 2017)

Here's a fullsize example, I have many like these :-\


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## YuengLinger (Jun 12, 2017)

Frustrating for you, but an interesting trouble-shooting puzzle.

Do YOU have a theory? Have you tried your Canon tech support?


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## Viggo (Jun 12, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> Frustrating for you, but an interesting trouble-shooting puzzle.
> 
> Do YOU have a theory? Have you tried your Canon tech support?



The only theory I had doesn't make sense anymore, that it had something to do with the picture being lit with pulses. Or that the trigger affects AF somehow, but it works with the trigger on and no lamp. And indoors in poor light everything is flawless. And I haven't seen that afma varies that much with temp changes, or at all in fact. 

The one thing though is children's faces, it has always been a big struggle to focus on, but tried with my wife indoors against windows that were pretty bright, but not crazy white, and nothing worked either so. And again, if I try with no lamp it works, but backlit is more misses. I don't know :

I'll try today with the afma settings that gave the best results with lamp, without lamp to see if I can somehow split the difference and everything pretty good, or make a habit of always adjust afma to whether I'm shooting with a lamp or not...

I have contacted Canon with this and other stuff, and the answer is always the same; Contact your local service shop, and I have nothing but horrible experience with them, so they are not even looking at my camera unless it's already in pieces ..


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## Larsskv (Jun 12, 2017)

Viggo said:


> Ray-uk said:
> 
> 
> > Could it be that you have flash AF assist enabled and it is confusing the AF, try turning it off.
> ...



A long shot suggestion... Maybe turning on the AF assist helps?


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## Viggo (Jun 12, 2017)

Larsskv said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > Ray-uk said:
> ...



I was going to try that, and to my surprise I can't do anything, well.. when I access the Speedlite-menu in camera I can see all settings, groups, ratios etc, but when I choose a setting I can't change any of them, that also means I can't turn off the af assist beam. It doesn't work in servo anyway, but all things I can't change MAY cause any of this.

I've been thinking that all of my issues have a common denominator, TTL... Could it be that? I guess I will find out because the Siros L is not TTL in any way, if that suddenly works it might be that. So wish I had an AD600 non-TTL to try also...


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## Valvebounce (Jun 12, 2017)

Hi Viggo. 
Do I understand from your comment below that you are using AI Servo? Canon recommends not using AIServo for static subjects though I know many do and get perfect results, perhaps the flash is giving a false impression of movement (plus you would get the greyed out menu back in one shot). 

Cheers, Graham. 



Viggo said:


> Larsskv said:
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> > Viggo said:
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## Viggo (Jun 12, 2017)

I turned off "Af assist beam firing" in the af menu and tried about a 100 shots with a small doll head and I do not want to say anything before testing with the kids outside, but I had only two three misses out of those 100+ shots, even against a back lit window. How this could affect anything when it's not firing even if it's on, I don't know, but if it now works I REALLY don't care why, lol.

Fingers crossed...


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## Viggo (Jun 12, 2017)

Thanks for the tip Graham, but I've been alternating between AF modes from spot to face detection, and everything between, in both servo and one shot without any difference. I use Servo all the time, I just adjust the ACC-setting to -2 when shooting still subjects and it has given better results than one shot when shooting very shallow dof. When kids stand still, they're not really still enough for one shot ;D


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## hne (Jun 12, 2017)

Viggo said:


> hne said:
> 
> 
> > Does it still front-focus if you leave the radio-controlled flash somewhere where it doesn't affect the image at all? It should just pop on max if you do, no matter what you set FEC to. At least nothing light-related would influence the image. I could imagine a possibility where preflashes could be influencing tracking AF, now that the higher end Canons use data from the metering sensor also for AF purposes.
> ...



How do you use HSS without ETTL?

The metering preflashes are triggered just before exposure, close enough that only some individuals manage to blink. Since the ETTL II system uses differences between ambient and flash reading to figure out where the lit subject is (rather than rely on AF point placement as the previous ETTL system did), I thought there might be a back channel to the AF system for some reason if you had an AI servo mode or even more likely if you had an auto af point select mode such as zone af.

The example you showed had a bright knee in focus, closer than the face. That would have been more affected by the flash than the face would. Is this a common scenario in the images that front-focus, that there is something bright between the focus point and the flash?

Can you trigger this with speedlights too?

Can you trigger the same behaviour on a non 1-series body?


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## Viggo (Jun 12, 2017)

hne said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > hne said:
> ...



HSS without TTL; I don't know, and that's why I also said that the Broncolor HS (not HSS) is different than the other lamps I 've used, since in fact the Bron isn't TTL at all.

It does not matter one bit if there's anything in between the point or not, and with single point or expanded or auto af point selection with face detection, they all work flawless without flash, and not with flash. Well, it works because it is consistent, only in front compared to shooting without lamp.


Anyway, after I tried turning off the AF assist beam in the AF menu things have been looking a bit better actually. I have gotten more sharp shots today then previously. Still just testing, but improved for sure.

This is sht at f1.4 with the 35 f1.4 L II.






Wide open with the 135 L.









I have only the 1dx2 to try this with so I don't know. I do know however that my 1dx didn't have any issues with the Profoto B1 or the ad360. And I know a friend who has this issue with the ad360 and the 5d4.


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## hne (Jun 13, 2017)

Viggo said:


> hne said:
> 
> 
> > How do you use HSS without ETTL?
> ...



Nice shots (that I removed from the quote block to save people some scrolling).

I tried a few dozen backlit flash exposures with 35/1.4 and 85/1.8 more or less fully open yesterday on my 5D4, with my Yongnuos but couldn't find a single case of front focus. Neither with single-point spot focus nor Face priority with all points active. AF assist beam firing. This was with TTL and HSS as it was rather bright, EV 13-15 at ISO100.

When you get front focused images: Is there always an object that is in focus or could it be that nothing (or like one single twig in a corner or a slice of concrete) is in focus?
If not: Is the front-focusing amount deterministic? Proportional to subject distance?


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## Viggo (Jun 13, 2017)

It doesn't matter if it's nothing in front but ground, or if the subject is the only thing except ground and or background and nothing disturbs.

The relationship between subject distance and front focus I think it's pretty constant, it's not like with the Signa's that chooses a point at random. It's pretty close to being sharp, but not quite there,
No complete misses like 20 ft in front.


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## SecureGSM (Jun 13, 2017)

Viggo, I found pretty reasonable explanation to this issue on Godox website, theyu talk about Nikon version but the issue is very similar sounding at least to me. I took the liberty of providing few remarks in the text below in order to make the better sense of the information.. I hope it is OK by you.

Q:why using the AF lamp in X1N transmitter, the picture is unfocused? 
A:
The AF focusing function can be only normally used with Nikon original flashes, so by using the AF lamp (AF assist beam - SecureGSM) in the camera to address the issue, turn off the AF focusing function (AF assist beam - SecureGSM) in the transmitter(C.Fn-06 set 0），and then turn on the AF focusing function in the camera( Set ON for the build-in AF lamp (AF assist beam - SecureGSM) in camera customer menu)

http://www.godox.com/EN/Q&A.html






Viggo said:


> It doesn't matter if it's nothing in front but ground, or if the subject is the only thing except ground and or background and nothing disturbs.
> 
> The relationship between subject distance and front focus I think it's pretty constant, it's not like with the Signa's that chooses a point at random. It's pretty close to being sharp, but not quite there,
> No complete misses like 20 ft in front.


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## Viggo (Jun 13, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> Viggo, I found pretty reasonable explanation to this issue on Godox website, theyu talk about Nikon version but the issue is very similar sounding at least to me. I took the liberty of providing few remarks in the text below in order to make the better sense of the information.. I hope it is OK by you.
> 
> Q:why using the AF lamp in X1N transmitter, the picture is unfocused?
> A:
> ...



Thanks for the tip! Problem is that I can't change any of the settings accessed in the Speedlite menu in camera, I can see them, but not change them...


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## SecureGSM (Jun 13, 2017)

oh, schweppes!  this does not sound right to me. there is v.20 (beta) Godox x1t-c firmware being discussed on the forum. just saying 



Viggo said:


> Thanks for the tip! Problem is that I can't change any of the settings accessed in the Speedlite menu in camera, I can see them, but not change them...


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## Viggo (Jun 13, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> oh, schweppes!  this does not sound right to me. there is v.20 (beta) Godox x1t-c firmware being discussed on the forum. just saying
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's my brothers lamp, so I'll just leave it to him to update. It's only a matter of days before my new lamp arrives and I'll have a go then. It's a similar transmitter so perhaps it will make more sense then


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## C_Raven (Jun 13, 2017)

Viggo said:


> Thanks for the tip! Problem is that I can't change any of the settings accessed in the Speedlite menu in camera, I can see them, but not change them...



I think that's normal, since you don't have a flash in the hotshoe compatible with speedlite control, and the 1D series does not have AF assist lamp in the body, so there is nothing to turn OFF.


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## Viggo (Jun 13, 2017)

C_Raven said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the tip! Problem is that I can't change any of the settings accessed in the Speedlite menu in camera, I can see them, but not change them...
> ...



Probably, but I can turn it on/off in the AF menu. It's a bit strange that the settings are there when they can't be changed, my other triggers only display what I can change.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 13, 2017)

HSS and ETTL are not related to each other, you can do either one or both at once.


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## Viggo (Jun 13, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> HSS and ETTL are not related to each other, you can do either one or both at once.



I came to that conclusion also, I remembered there is a ad600 that has HSS, but isn't TTL. Hopefully the Siros is here on Friday 8)


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