# Where are you EOS 70D?



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 24, 2013)

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<strong>The next EOS body


</strong>CP+ in Japan is coming up on January 31, 2013 and we haven’t heard a thing about Canon making a product announcement for the show.</p>
<p>That being said, there are lots of reports of 60D stocks being low. We’ve been told previously that a 70D will appear before a 7D replacement. It’s said to be an incremental upgrade from the 60D. Although, we’ve heard that wifi and gps will be added to the xxD line with the 70D.</p>
<p>The image sensor may remain at 18mp as Canon separates the 7D Mark II with a new, higher performing APS-C sensor. This makes a lot of sense as I think the APS-C segment needs a jolt and not more of the same.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## TheBadger (Jan 24, 2013)

No! Stop! Canon no! For the love of every thing that is precious in this world, do not release another camera with that same sensor! I have been waiting for eons for a new APS-C sensor in a semi-professional body! Will I have to wait another two more years? I don't have the budget to buy a 7D mkII and I have been saving for this precious little thing the 70D. Please don't screw it up.


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## kubelik (Jan 24, 2013)

I think they're trying to get some sort of record for wringing the most profit from a sensor, over the longest lifespan


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## jebrady03 (Jan 24, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> Where are you EOS 70D?



If it's an incremental upgrade with the same sensor and only GPS/wifi to differentiate it, I don't care where it is - it's not EVER going to be on my radar. I'll stick with my 60D - thanks! In fact, it would take a pretty dramatic upgrade for me to move along - or, a FF version of the 60D. I don't care what anyone says, the swivel screen is AWESOME and is perfect for LOTS of shooting scenarios. FF (and all the benefits that come with it like improved ISO, etc.) + Fast live view focusing, a larger viewfinder, MFA and nothing else has to change for me - I'd upgrade immediately. More focus points would be nice, but I could live without them.


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## x-vision (Jan 24, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> ... as Canon separates the 7D Mark II with a new, higher performing APS-C sensor. This makes a lot of sense as I think the APS-C segment needs a jolt and not more of the same.



+1000

Canon, are you listening?


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## Don Haines (Jan 24, 2013)

Think Rebel T4i with a shoulder display and two dials and better build quality...... sort of like the difference between the 60D and the T3i.

I would probably stick to the 60D.... not sure if Wireless is quite ready yet and besides, I tend to upgrade every second or third model, not each time a new one comes out.


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## Aglet (Jan 24, 2013)

TheBadger said:


> No! Stop! Canon no! For the love of every thing that is precious in this world, do not release another camera with that same sensor! I have been waiting for eons for a new APS-C sensor in a semi-professional body! Will I have to wait another two more years? I don't have the budget to buy a 7D mkII and I have been saving for this precious little thing the 70D. Please don't screw it up.


+1
if the only thing a 70D gets is 60D tech + GPS and WiFi it's OK as an upgrade for some but not those already with a 60D. Still the 60D's sensor COULD use a little improvement in noise performance at low ISO and, if they make the 70D low ISO noise performance as good as the new 6D's, it's an incremental upgrade in file quality.


kubelik said:


> I think they're trying to get some sort of record for wringing the most profit from a sensor, over the longest lifespan


That's business.


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## Famateur (Jan 24, 2013)

> No! Stop! Canon no! For the love of every thing that is precious in this world, do not release another camera with that same sensor! I have been waiting for eons for a new APS-C sensor in a semi-professional body! Will I have to wait another two more years? I don't have the budget to buy a 7D mkII and I have been saving for this precious little thing the 70D. Please don't screw it up.



Amen!!!

If all they do is update the sensor to the same as the T4i and add WiFi, GPS and touch screen, I might as well just buy the 60D for <$600 and use the rest for glass. I just can't bring myself to buy a 3-year-old camera just because the price is falling. 

I don't really care about megapixels. Eighteen is plenty for me -- it's the high-ISO noise where I'd like to see the most improvement in sensor tech. That's probably the only thing really stopping me from snapping-up the 60D at current prices (well that and no AFMA).

Oh well. I guess I'd rather endure a dearth of rumors of the 70D and still hope for an impressive new sensor than read a bunch of CR2 and 3 pointing toward a repackaging of the old camera with the new whistles and bells...

Okay...time to breathe a little and go take some photos with my G12. It still takes damn good pictures for a point-and-shoot...


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## 20Dave (Jan 24, 2013)

dilbert said:


> > _This makes a lot of sense as I think the APS-C segment needs a jolt and not more of the same._
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I believe they are talking about the 7DII as the jolt in the APS-C market, not the 70D.


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## intence01 (Jan 24, 2013)

Are you kidding me, another camera with the 18MP sensor?!? 7D, T2i, T3i, T4i, 60D, and now possibly 70D?!? This doesn't bode well for the consumer.


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## that1guyy (Jan 24, 2013)

I've been waiting for a 70D for a long time. But if it releases with no improvements in dynamic range, noise performance, and no improvements on the video front, I ain't buying. I'd rather wait a few months and see a quality upgrade then the same old crap that we have for the past three years.


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## that1guyy (Jan 24, 2013)

dilbert said:


> > _The image sensor may remain at 18mp as Canon separates the 7D Mark II with a new, higher performing APS-C sensor. _
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agreed. The Canon Rumors team literally has no info but post this useless garbage just to get views.


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## wickidwombat (Jan 24, 2013)

I have a CR2 on the 70D

It will be epically undewhelming
a cobbled together franken-camera
using the current 18MP APS-C sensor
they will manage to make the AF worse than the 60D (dont believe me? well they cant make it better than the 6D's 1 cross point now can they!)

it will be ushered in on a river of tears from canon users


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## RendrLab (Jan 24, 2013)

I would rather be run over by a bus then believe that Canon would not improve on the 60D, especially after the 60Da. I saw that as a life-lengthener to the 60D, even if it's only real changes are the astrophotography adjustments.
Canon has lasted this long and I highly doubt that they are naïve enough to not know they better bring something better to the table for us 60D folks than just a few wallet warrior options. Sure, WiFi & GPS have there places in some peoples work/photography styles, but for those of us that didn't get the 60D at the current low pricing bought that camera because it was all-around better than the Rebel line of cameras (the swivel screen was just a bonus (for the most part anyway.)
With the T4i getting GPS and touchscreen and the 6D getting WiFi & GPS, I believe Canon is testing the waters to see what us lower-middle class (in range of cameras, not in actual income) DSLR buyers desire more, toys or IQ.
I honestly wouldn't care if the 70D, or whatever it's name will be, looked identical to the 60D as long as they improved on noise across the ISO range & maybe give it STM ability.
Also, if you happen to be listening Canon, please get rid of the frickin smooshy directional pad and let us have the joystick for AF!


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## wickidwombat (Jan 24, 2013)

RendrLab said:


> I would rather be run over by a bus then believe that Canon would not improve on the 60D, especially after the 60Da. I saw that as a life-lengthener to the 60D, even if it's only real changes are the astrophotography adjustments.
> Canon has lasted this long and I highly doubt that they are naïve enough to not know they better bring something better to the table for us 60D folks than just a few wallet warrior options. Sure, WiFi & GPS have there places in some peoples work/photography styles, but for those of us that didn't get the 60D at the current low pricing bought that camera because it was all-around better than the Rebel line of cameras (the swivel screen was just a bonus (for the most part anyway.)
> With the T4i getting GPS and touchscreen and the 6D getting WiFi & GPS, I believe Canon is testing the waters to see what us lower-middle class (in range of cameras, not in actual income) DSLR buyers desire more, toys are IQ.
> I honestly wouldn't care if the 70D, or whatever it's name will be, looked identical to the 60D as long as they improved on noise across the ISO range & maybe give it STM ability.



sorry but you might want to get hold of a bus timetable...

its going to be 6D AF... (or the same 9 point all cross type in the 60D which would be a good thing)
same ol 18 MP sensor (no you wont get any iso improvements)
same plastic body
same controls
swivel screen
GPS and Wifi
pop up flash
single SD card


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## RendrLab (Jan 24, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> RendrLab said:
> 
> 
> > I would rather be run over by a bus then believe that Canon would not improve on the 60D, especially after the 60Da. I saw that as a life-lengthener to the 60D, even if it's only real changes are the astrophotography adjustments.
> ...



Blasphemy I tell you...


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## jrista (Jan 24, 2013)

kubelik said:


> I think they're trying to get some sort of record for wringing the most profit from a sensor, over the longest lifespan



 +1

Although, from a business perspective, I gotta hand it to Canon for actually achieving that. That IS kind of the holy grail of business...to make a product that lasts forever.


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## wickidwombat (Jan 24, 2013)

jrista said:


> kubelik said:
> 
> 
> > I think they're trying to get some sort of record for wringing the most profit from a sensor, over the longest lifespan
> ...



the most impressive part is how they are wringing such a lot of profit / life out of such a BAD sensor


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## jrista (Jan 24, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > kubelik said:
> ...



I wouldn't call it a "bad" sensor. Roger Clark has some interesting comparisons of IQ between the 7D and a number of other cameras, including the 5D II, 1D IV, etc. The 7D in those comparisons is actually good, captures more detail, just as much if not more light, all despite the added noise. On a size-normal basis, the 7D tends to outperform even the 1D IV until higher ISO settings. 

It is not a "great" sensor, but technically and statistically speaking neither is it a "bad" sensor...it is just a middle-ground sensor that neither "wows" like the D800 nor truly sucks like a cheap P&S with a 16mp microsensor with pixels barely large enough to accommodate the wavelengths of light its supposed to be capturing. I don't think any of that actually changes your point, however... ;P


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## M.ST (Jan 24, 2013)

Wake up Canon. I need the 7D Mark II to replace the teleconverters.

The 70D can wait.


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## jrista (Jan 24, 2013)

M.ST said:


> Wake up Canon. I need the 7D Mark II to replace the teleconverters.



Hmm, odd. I'd happily pick up a 600mm L II and a couple teleconverters to replace the 7D myself...I just don't have the cash readily on hand to do so. With a 1200mm lens (600mm f/4 L II + 2x TC III) and a 1D X, the 7D couldn't keep up if its life depended on it. Hell, the 5D III would probably step all over the 7D in that scenario once the f/8 AF firmware update is dropped... (In which case, I actually could afford the telephoto/teleconverter/5DIII setup, and would definitely go for it.)


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## Terry Rogers (Jan 24, 2013)

Here is my perfect 70D

New sensor tech, but doesn't need to be more than 18-20 mp. I should produce good pictures up to at least iso 6400 with improved dynamic range at iso100 to at least keep up with Nikon/Sony sensors
Alloy body.
AFMA a must
keep the swivel screen
97-98% viewfinder (sure 100% would be great, but I'm not that picky)
auto focus system of the current 7D, or at least something better than the t4i (all cross type in a rebel is a huge improvement) to differentiate it.
Pop op flash to act as a master
While some might like wifi and gps, not such a huge deal for me.

So essentially a camera like the current 7D but with slightly lower build quality (weather sealing and such), maybe a less sophisticated AF system, swivel screen, and a new sensor. 

Put all that into a $1000 camera and I think they'd have a winner.

Oh, and kit it with the 15-85, not the 17-85


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## Brock (Jan 24, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> <p>We’ve been told previously that a 70D will appear before a 7D replacement. It’s said to be an incremental upgrade from the 60D. Although, we’ve heard that wifi and gps will be added to the xxD line with the 70D.</p>
> <p>The image sensor may remain at 18mp as Canon separates the 7D Mark II with a new, higher performing APS-C sensor. This makes a lot of sense as I think the APS-C segment needs a jolt and not more of the same.</p>
> <p><strong><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\">c</span>r</strong></p>
> [/html]



*NOOOOOOO!!*

http://nooooooooooooooo.com

The D5200 is now at 24MP. People will look at the Canon box and see 18MP and then the Nikon and see 24MP. It's obvious which one most new purchasers (who aren't already invested in lenses) are going to trend towards choosing. 

Unless Canon is planning on competing on price, they really need a new, higher MegaPixel sensor in the 70D / 7D Mark II to pass down to the T5i, T6i, T7i.


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## Aputure (Jan 24, 2013)

ANOTHER 18mp sensor would be a joke...unless it is a NEW 18mp sensor with improved performance. Seriously, they've used the same one too many times already.


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## fman (Jan 24, 2013)

jrista said:


> I wouldn't call it a "bad" sensor. Roger Clark has some interesting comparisons of IQ between the 7D and a number of other cameras, including the 5D II, 1D IV, etc. The 7D in those comparisons is actually good, captures more detail, just as much if not more light, all despite the added noise. On a size-normal basis, the 7D tends to outperform even the 1D IV until higher ISO settings.
> 
> It is not a "great" sensor, but technically and statistically speaking neither is it a "bad" sensor...it is just a middle-ground sensor that neither "wows" like the D800 nor truly sucks like a cheap P&S with a 16mp microsensor with pixels barely large enough to accommodate the wavelengths of light its supposed to be capturing. I don't think any of that actually changes your point, however... ;P



The current 18 MP Canon sensor is not particularly bad (but not good either), especially when compared with other Canon sensors. 

It's rather that Canon's sensor tech lags years behind Sony that can be found e.g. in Nikon D5100/7000 or Olympus OM-D E-M5 (which is despite the smaller sensor size is as good or better than the 18MP Canons).

So when compared with Sony sensors it becomes visible that all that years passed brought no IQ improvement to Canon sensors (high ISO noise, dynamic range) and it would be particularly bad that 70D re-used the same old tech meaning 2 more years with no IQ improvement whatsoever for APS-C Canons. 

Oh and I'm not wishing for more megapixels...that would be the worst thing to happen IQ wise.

I would not mind Canon using Sony sensors for APS-C bodies if they cannot keep up in sensor tech.


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## eyeland (Jan 24, 2013)

Brock said:


> http://nooooooooooooooo.com


+1
epic


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## verysimplejason (Jan 24, 2013)

70D will just be a little bit better T4I. I'm not so surprised. Maybe, they'll add a little bit of in-sensor noise reduction that will make the IQ a little bit mushier but a little bit cleaner. And maybe, they'll add WIFI and restore back the sorely missed AFMA but that's it. This will be good for those who wants a bigger-than-rebel first DSLR but for most of us, we'll just wait for the next big thing.


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## fman (Jan 24, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> maybe it´s just impossible to improve the sensor with canons current 500nm manufacturing process?
> 
> they have kept improving it for what 8-10 years?
> 
> so until canon has a new manufacturing process online they would have no other choice then using the same sensor.



I'm ready to accept that QE can be improved with getting rid of the current 500nm manufacturing process (http://www.chipworks.com/blog/technologyblog/2012/10/24/full-frame-dslr-cameras-canon-stays-the-course/), however Canon sensors have huge reading noise at low ISO (which limits the dynamic range).
http://www.sensorgen.info/

Can that also be improved just by changing the process?

I fear that Canon sensor tech cannot keep up with e.g. Sony not just because of a single reason but a multitude of reasons so probably the cure is also not that simple...but let's hope that they can fix it and don't introduce any new APS-C body with the old (by now basically obsolete) tech 18MP Canon sensor.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 24, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> It’s said to be an incremental upgrade from the 60D



Thanks Canon for not obsoleting my 60d :-> ... I already had a feeling the 70d would be just a 60d with the latest gimmicks (digic5 & fw features like hdr, live view af pixels, wifi, gps) and afma, if fast lenses are used. This really would be 100% Canon-like.

If this is released before the 7d2 (maybe end of 2013?) it proves Canon simply cannot do any better in the aps-c segment atm and needs the higher ff sensor area that has more potential left.


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## surfing_geek (Jan 24, 2013)

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/20130124_584693.html


Can any provide a 'better-than-machine-translation' translation of this interview? I'm struggling to make any sense of the automatic one but unfortunately do not speak japanese! I'd be really interested to see what was ACTUALLY said.


Cheers!


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## carlosmeldano (Jan 24, 2013)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canon_EOS_digital_cameras

check the table at the bottom of the page.

7D started in 2009Q3. 550D followed in 2010Q1, 600D in 2011Q1 and 650D in 2012Q2. 60D started in 2010Q3, 60Da in 2012Q2. 6 cameras with the same sensor.

life cycle of the xxD was 1.5 years for 10D-20D-30D-40D, 2 years for 50D, and 60D is on the market for 2.5+ years.

as after 7D, the next rebel after 7Dmk2 will get the new sensor. it will probably be the 700D or the 750D.

assuming that the xxD life-cycle continues like this, 70D with the same old sensor will be very outdated in 2014, but we'll have to wait till early 2016 for the 80D (2.5 years from 2013Q2).

do you still think canon will put the same old 18mp sensor in 70D?


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## wickidwombat (Jan 24, 2013)

carlosmeldano said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canon_EOS_digital_cameras
> 
> check the table at the bottom of the page.
> 
> ...


You forgot the eos m same sensor 
And yes they will


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## ashmadux (Jan 24, 2013)

jrista said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Nope, that terrible 7d sensor doesn't outperform anything. T2i had the best implementation out of all of the uses of this sensor, save for the sharpness of the t4i. 7d sensor is just too noisy


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## taz (Jan 24, 2013)

It is ridiculous if they put the same old 18 mpix sensor in the 70D! 
I will definitely NOT buy 70D if it uses the same sensor. 

Make at least a new sensor with better iso performance and better dynamic range!!!

I dont care about how many pixels it has. Just improve high iso performance and dynamic range and I will buy it


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## insanitybeard (Jan 24, 2013)

ashmadux said:


> Nope, that terrible 7d sensor doesn't outperform anything. T2i had the best implementation out of all of the uses of this sensor, save for the sharpness of the t4i. 7d sensor is just too noisy



Yeah, makes me wonder how I can get any usable pictures out of the 7D.....

I don't disagree it needs updating, but the way it is described by some would have you believe you might as well just not bother taking pictures with it.


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## Plainsman (Jan 24, 2013)

taz said:


> It is ridiculous if they put the same old 18 mpix sensor in the 70D!
> I will definitely NOT buy 70D if it uses the same sensor.
> 
> Make at least a new sensor with better iso performance and better dynamic range!!!
> ...





I would bet a small amount that the 70D - if it comes out soon- ie well ahead of a 7D2 launch will have the same 18Mp sensor as the 60D.

Canon certainly needs to be more innovative by even just thinking about subletting more sensor designs to Sony or Toshiba.


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## ddashti (Jan 24, 2013)

Where are you EOS 7D Mark II?
What will happen to the 60Da after the 70D is released?
Will Canon try to pull off a 70Da?


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## Brock (Jan 24, 2013)

Plainsman said:


> taz said:
> 
> 
> > It is ridiculous if they put the same old 18 mpix sensor in the 70D!
> ...



Canon doesn't have a problem w/ sensor designs, just shrinking fabrication. 

The fact that they are able to get the performance they do within the 0.5 µm design rules shows they are, if not the very best sensor designer, close to it.

When they finally do shrink the process I have lofty expectations.

I still think that it's crazy to keep the same sensor in the 70D & don't believe it. There's no way they can drag it out another 2.5 years. So unless there's some secret sauce that will make it magic I don't know how they can justify it.


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## sandymandy (Jan 24, 2013)

It will more likely be 6D sensor reduced in size.


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## RLPhoto (Jan 24, 2013)

I expect the 70D to be a repackaged 7D and the 7DII to be a step-up from that.


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## EchoLocation (Jan 24, 2013)

Wow... Sad news for Canon fans. If the 70D has the same sensor as the 60D and similar AF, then it will truly be a waste of an upgrade.
As has been said beforee, the 7D is ancient by now(2009!) and badly needs an upgrade.
If Canon releases any other cameras over 800 dollars with that same 18MP sensor it will be ridonculous.
This is why I switched, I got tired of the same glacial change and ultra high introductory pricing of Canon products.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 24, 2013)

EchoLocation said:


> Wow... Sad news for Canon fans. If the 70D has the same sensor as the 60D and similar AF, then it will truly be a waste of an upgrade.



Next to the gimmicks I'd at least expect the 70d to have 11 af points like the 6d, maybe even the 7d-type af - so depending on the price of course it'd be an excellent and capable camera, though considering the competition a little underwhelming and lacking the "wow!" factor.


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## honsten (Jan 24, 2013)

I honestly think we'll see new sensors this time around. I also wouldn't be surprised to see the 7DII to be shown off at Cp+, maybe given a rough release date, like spring... It just won't be released immediately.

Canon know _full well_ how old that 18MP sensor is and they haven't been sitting idle for the last three years. It would be immensely stupid to warm-over the 60D like people are saying will happen...


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## MintMark (Jan 24, 2013)

taz said:


> I dont care about how many pixels it has. Just improve high iso performance and dynamic range and I will buy it



You could get a full frame camera and crop the pictures to achieve that...


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## unfocused (Jan 24, 2013)

So much hand-wringing and over-the-top comments over basically a "filler" post that doesn't even carry a CR rating. 

This is pure speculation folks. Nothing more. 

However, I do particularly enjoy all the people who swear the won't buy a 70D unless it has the same sensor as a 7DII. I'm sure Canon would be quaking in their boots for fear that all those people who want to buy a 70D would have to buy a 7DII instead.


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## TheBadger (Jan 24, 2013)

taz said:


> It is ridiculous if they put the same old 18 mpix sensor in the 70D!
> I will definitely NOT buy 70D if it uses the same sensor.
> 
> Make at least a new sensor with better iso performance and better dynamic range!!!
> ...



I agree. It's not the mega pixels, 18MP is actually very good number of pixels for an APS-C sensor. Sigh... :-\ and all I wanted was a swivel screen, a shoulder display and above all a compelling sensor in a relatively small body. As other members have pointed out, the now dreaded 18MP sensor was actually good... 3 years ago!


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## wayno (Jan 24, 2013)

RendrLab said:


> I would rather be run over by a bus then believe that Canon would not improve on the 60D, especially after the 60Da.



Methinks you're taking your 60Ds too seriously then


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## jrista (Jan 24, 2013)

fman said:


> Freelancer said:
> 
> 
> > maybe it´s just impossible to improve the sensor with canons current 500nm manufacturing process?
> ...



It's not the process per-se...its the technology. Sony switched away from using analog noise reduction to using digital noise reduction. Canon currently uses an analog CDS per pixel. Sony uses a variety of noise reduction techniques, including digital CDS, in their approach to CP-ADC. When an Exmor sensor is refreshed, a refresh read is done to determine the intrinsic electronic (dark current) signal. When counting that signal in CP-ADC, the count is negative, and that count for each pixel is stored in a cache per column. When the image signal is read out, the cached reset signal is intrinsically applied during image signal counting, effectively eliminating dark current noise. The fact that each column has it's own ADC operating in parallel, the ADC's can run at a lower clock, reducing downstream noise (one of the primary sources of Canon high ISO read noise, or at least it was until the current generation of Canon sensors). Additionally, since each column has its own ACD, vertical banding can be greatly reduced or eliminated as the differential between columns can be detected and compensated for.

I believe Canon has similar technology. The only way they could have achieved a 9.5fps readout of a 120mp sensor is with parallel ADC. Their press releases regarding that sensor clearly state that on-die parallel processing of some kind was used. Whether it is a form of CP-ADC with digital NR or something else that is still analog, I don't know...I've never found any explicit specs. Regardless...if Canon does move to a 180nm process, that die shrink would give them a hell of a lot of additional room on sensor die to include column-parallel electronics and basic image processing (i.e. noise reduction).


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## TheBadger (Jan 24, 2013)

dilbert said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > However, I do particularly enjoy all the people who swear the won't buy a 70D unless it has the same sensor as a 7DII. I'm sure Canon would be quaking in their boots for fear that all those people who want to buy a 70D would have to buy a 7DII instead.
> ...



Why release the 70D then? Just merge the 2 lines with a 7DmkII.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 24, 2013)

honsten said:


> I honestly think we'll see new sensors this time around. I also wouldn't be surprised to see the 7DII to be shown



Famous last words :-> ? ... you should do a search for the exact sentence, I remember it being written like this before the 600d & 650d.


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## taz (Jan 24, 2013)

MintMark said:


> taz said:
> 
> 
> > I dont care about how many pixels it has. Just improve high iso performance and dynamic range and I will buy it
> ...



Very good comment... does any full frame camera have a swirvel screen?


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## jrista (Jan 25, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > I believe Canon has similar technology.
> ...



It isn't quite that simple. Realize that Sony owns a gagillion patents for sensor technology. Canon isn't just trying to milk their technology for all its worth...although in doing so they are certainly in a better financial position than Sony (who is barely better than junk bond status for their latest debt purchase). Canon has to find ways to do things similar to what Sony's done with Exmor...without violating Sony patents. Canon knows full well their technology is old, aged, and smelling pretty stinky by now. 

I believe Canon's blunder is not that they are trying to suck their customers dry on crappy technology...Canon's blunder was not remaining innovative throughout the last five years or so, creating patents in lock-step with Sony. To play catch-up, Canon also has to play dodge-ball...they have to dodge Sony patents while concurrently trying to come up with their own, and with Sony owning so many balls to throw, Canon has a really difficult task on their hands.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 25, 2013)

70D goes back to the 6.3fps of 50D (now it is able to be a new feature again), gets the MFA of the 50D back again (to be trumpeted as a new feature improved over the 60D), keeps same or similar sensor as latest Rebel, adds some GPS/WiFi stuff, keeps flip screen of 60D.

7D2 - 7D+5D3 AF,new sensor (one could hope it offers proof they can do exmor-like but who knows),gps/wifi stuff


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## Brock (Jan 25, 2013)

jrista said:


> Freelancer said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Canon has the most patents of any camera company, & is #3 in the world when it comes to patents.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/11/ibm-maintains-top-spot-in-global-patent-rankings-canon-overtake/


Canon invests 10% of their revenue into R&D.

http://www.photographyblog.com/news/canon_registers_record_number_of_patents/


Sony has more invested in fabrication, but that doesn't mean they're doing more R&D or are ahead in patents.


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## Sphyn0x (Jan 25, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> 70D goes back to the 6.3fps of 50D (now it is able to be a new feature again), gets the MFA of the 50D back again (to be trumpeted as a new feature improved over the 60D), keeps same or similar sensor as latest Rebel, adds some GPS/WiFi stuff, keeps flip screen of 60D.
> 
> 7D2 - 7D+5D3 AF,new sensor (one could hope it offers proof they can do exmor-like but who knows),gps/wifi stuff



If it will be, as you're saying, I'll be happy with 70D. Maybe new sensor..


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## tim1970 (Jan 25, 2013)

surfing_geek said:


> http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/20130124_584693.html
> 
> 
> Can any provide a 'better-than-machine-translation' translation of this interview? I'm struggling to make any sense of the automatic one but unfortunately do not speak japanese! I'd be really interested to see what was ACTUALLY said.
> ...



Here is a better translation I found on another website...


DKW: As for the readers of DigiKame Watch, there are many who are waiting for the EOS 7D’s sucessor. Up through the release of last year’s major firmware update, there were many who felt that a new model with even better specs would be released shortly…
MM: Yes, they would be correct. For us, it’s about looking at what the camera has the potential to be and then adding that to what it can currently do. I do think the current model is still very attractive to buyers. And while we are, of course, developing its successor, it’ll be one that incorporates a certain number of innovative technologies. We will not be putting out a product with merely better specs, but one that has evolved into new territory. But then again, we’re not talking about something a long time from now either.

DKW: For example, your rival, Sony exceeded some of the limits that had been holding them back last year by asking themselves, “How far can we go?” They pursued the RX Series which is now in the market and delivered the goods, literaly, to their customers. And while Canon cameras will always be known for things like their high image quality, functionality, and great performance, somewhere along the line I get the impression that Canon began behaving as if it were the be-all and end-all in the camera world. The 7D seemed, in a sense, to be Canon’s attempt at showing its sensitivity and desire to go beyond its limits but, Mr. Maeda, do you personally have an interest in pursuing such “extreme” products like your competitors?

MM: Naturally, I want a camera to be something you put in your hand, peer out in the world with, and become happy with. And I absolutely want them to get smaller. I will refrain from commenting on other companies’ products, but speaking of our own, while cameras like the PowerShot S Series are considered small, they are still massive in my mind. We want to change that. And we will continue to pursue improvement in areas like production quality and the overall quality of our products in addition to high image quality.


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## kubelik (Jan 25, 2013)

thanks for that version of the translation, tim. also, good on the interviewer for being blunt and to the point. I'm a supporter of canon products but I do think they still need to look at themselves with a critical eye and work on continually improving, just like every company should.


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## jrista (Jan 25, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > It isn't quite that simple. Realize that Sony owns a gagillion patents for sensor technology. Canon isn't just trying to milk their technology for all its worth...although in doing so they are certainly in a better financial position than Sony (who is barely better than junk bond status for their latest debt purchase). Canon has to find ways to do things similar to what Sony's done with Exmor...without violating Sony patents. Canon knows full well their technology is old, aged, and smelling pretty stinky by now.
> ...



I did not say patents overall...just image sensor patents. I know Canon is a top patent producer in general, however Canon has a very broad and diverse imaging presence, which involves patents for optics, fabrication, manufacture, and other things in addition to sensor patents. Sony's IC division, particularly their imaging sensor division, has been pounding out R&D and patents in that one area for the last few years. They have spent tens of billions of dollars JUST on image sensor and related IC patents, which is why they are so deeply in debt right now.

To my knowledge, Canon has not patented as much image sensor technology as Sony has in the last several years.


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## jrista (Jan 25, 2013)

Poked around patentfish for a while. As far as I could tell, counting patents for CMOS image sensors, solid-state imagers, color filter arrays, etc. I counted about 27 patents for Canon, and over 60 for Sony before finally stopping. I'd say Sony has about three times the image sensor related patents as Canon does since 2009.


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## Brock (Jan 26, 2013)

jrista said:


> Freelancer said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...


Where did you get that figure that Sony has spent " tens of billions of dollars JUST on image sensor and related IC patents"?

You say that Canon's ranking in patents doesn't matter because they make lenses, scanners & printers as well? 

Sony makes TVs, computers, mp3 players, headphones, amplifiers, speakers, projectors, movies, TV shows, video game consoles, video games, financial services companies, a record label, & I think they even have a piece of MGM Resorts/Gaming. All that combined is was $78.9 billion last year.

Canon just makes cameras, scanners, printers & medical equipment (which is all based on imaging tech). It's revenue was $45 billion last year. 10% of which went to R&D.ar. 10% of which went to R&D.




jrista said:


> Poked around patentfish for a while. As far as I could tell, counting patents for CMOS image sensors, solid-state imagers, color filter arrays, etc. I counted about 27 patents for Canon, and over 60 for Sony before finally stopping. I'd say Sony has about three times the image sensor related patents as Canon does since 2009.



Canon has about 2,500 patents a year. If you found 27 relating to their primary part for their main division, I'm inclined to believe that's not an accurate assessment. 27 out of some 10,000 doesn't seem very realistic.


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## jrista (Jan 26, 2013)

Well, sorry...Sony has spent billions on their image sensor division. They have built a couple of fabs over the last number of years, which clock in at a couple billion a piece. They have also spent billions designing, prototyping, and and otherwise researching CMOS devices, image sensors, high density screens (like those in their mirrorless cameras), etc. Sony at large is somewhere around 60 billion in debt, and a fairly significant fraction of that has to do with just their CMOS unit related to image sensors and cameras. I did not actually mean to say they literally spent tens of billions just on the R&D for the patents themselves...the patents are just a natural byproduct of all the rest.



Brock said:


> Canon has about 2,500 patents a year. If you found 27 relating to their primary part for their main division, I'm inclined to believe that's not an accurate assessment. 27 out of some 10,000 doesn't seem very realistic.



Same could really be said about Sony. As you stated, Sony also has oodles of other business units, and they file thousands of patents a year as well. Be it 27 or 60, neither really makes up a significant fraction of the total number of patents filed. However, using PatentFish, each of my searches only seemed to result in at most 64 results each. Out of three or four searches of 64 each, that is only around 200 patents total that I found in my PatentFish searches. In which case, 27 and 60 are much more meaningful percentages. Either PatentFish simply has a limit on searches, capping them at 64, or they just don't track all 2000 or so patents filed each year by these companies. Either way...in context, I don't think my numbers are all that bad. 

It should be noted that Canon has a LOT of patents related to medical devices, particularly optics or IC devices that support their medical imaging devices. I'd say the majority of the patents I found were medical or memory related. Canon also has quite a lot of patents related to their printer division, particularly print heads. I'd have to say I saw around 18-20 patents for printer related stuff, the majority of which were print head patents. There were also a few semiconductor fab patents scattered here and there from both companies. 

I should note that I was explicitly looking for patents that dealt directly with CMOS Image Sensors for use in digital cameras. Not just DSLRs, but digital cameras in general, of all forms. Yes, everything Canon does is imaging related, but the number of patents that I could find that dealt directly with CIS was lower than what I could find for Sony. It seemed Canon had a few patents per page dealing directly with CIS. It seemed in most cases almost all of the patents on each page for Sony dealt directly with CIS, and on more fronts than Canon (particularly on the small form factor front...small sensors for phones, tablets, small cameras, etc. as well as image sensor and image processor packaging, interlink, etc.) Both companies also had quite a number of CIS patents that seemed to be nearly identical...high efficiency CFA designs, High-k gates, strained silicon processes for use in CIS, parallel sensor readout and amplification, block readout and amplification, analog noise reduction in similar forms, etc.


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## Canon-F1 (Jan 26, 2013)

as much as you waste your time defending your guesses... scattering some buzzwords without really saying something ... you are still wrong jrista and the time will show it.

anyway... today it´s not the time to invest in bodys in my opinion.

i rather buy a 2200 euro 24-70mm II lens instead of a new canon body.
because new canon lenses do show significant improvements.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 26, 2013)

Canon-F1 said:


> i rather buy a 2200 euro 24-70mm II lens instead of a new canon body.
> because new canon lenses do show significant improvements.



Unfortunately part of these improvements like enhanced af precision only show in combination with the newer and most expensive canon bodies like 1dx/5d3 ... that's why I'm still not decided if it's wise to buy a 24-70ii for the 6d if the Tamron with IS is half the price :-o


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## jrista (Jan 26, 2013)

Canon-F1 said:


> as much as you waste your time defending your guesses... scattering some buzzwords without really saying something ... you are still wrong jrista and the time will show it.
> 
> anyway... today it´s not the time to invest in bodys in my opinion.
> 
> ...



Wrong about what? That Sony is ahead of the curve when it comes to image sensor technology? I think that is and has been a thoroughly established *fact* for some time now. 

Does Canon have something up their sleeve? Sure, they have something up their sleeve. Is it as good or better than Sony Exmor, and will it show up in the next major camera released? My opinion is that they do not have something better than Exmor, and even if they have something better than they (Canon) have now (which I know they do, as Chipworks recently showed some images of a Canon 180nm Cu process with lightpipes), unless Canon has found a way to implement their own version of CP-ADC with digital NR that by some fluke does not actually violate Sony's patent, it is doubtful that they will achieve the near-noiseless readout that Exmor has.

I would also like to point out that I am not the only one who believes Sony is way ahead of the curve when it comes to image sensor technology. Roger from LensRentals wrote an article on the subject in the not too distant past:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/is-sony-going-to-be-the-digital-kodak


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## MintMark (Jan 26, 2013)

taz said:


> MintMark said:
> 
> 
> > taz said:
> ...



Well, there's a 6D and a smartphone running EOS remote... but it's unwieldy if you're holding both of them.


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## preppyak (Jan 27, 2013)

MintMark said:


> Well, there's a 6D and a smartphone running EOS remote... but it's unwieldy if you're holding both of them.


Yeah...not to mention you lose the 1000-shot battery life advantage of having a DSLR.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 27, 2013)

preppyak said:


> MintMark said:
> 
> 
> > Well, there's a 6D and a smartphone running EOS remote... but it's unwieldy if you're holding both of them.
> ...



Imho it's a disgrace Canon cut the swivel screen from the 6d, I doubt there is any other reason than to protect the 5d3 - after all, a swivel screen is very nice for video and that's supposed to be the 5d3's strength. Of course wifi isn't a real replacement.

Yesterday I shot macro near the ground in the snow, I couldn't have done that with the 6d - I'm happy to lie flat in the mud to get good shots, but not in the freezing snow for an extended time :-(


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## Pitbullo (Jan 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Imho it's a disgrace Canon cut the swivel screen from the 6d, I doubt there is any other reason than to protect the 5d3 - after all, a swivel screen is very nice for video and that's supposed to be the 5d3's strength. Of course wifi isn't a real replacement.
> 
> Yesterday I shot macro near the ground in the snow, I couldn't have done that with the 6d - I'm happy to lie flat in the mud to get good shots, but not in the freezing snow for an extended time :-(



The 5D3 does not have an articulated screen. 60D does.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 27, 2013)

Pitbullo said:


> The 5D3 does not have an articulated screen. 60D does.



That's correct, I've got a 60d (see my equipment list).

What I tried to convey was that because even the video-king 5d3 hasn't got a swivel screen Canon didn't want to add it on the 60d-like 6d - because the 6d is obviously designed to have lower specs in any area save the center af light sensitivity as the "joker" against the Nikon 600d.


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## Pitbullo (Jan 27, 2013)

Ahh. You are right!

It is kind of annoying when accounts are telling engineers what they can and can not do. As I stated in another thread, the 6D is not for me (even though I might end up with one in a year or two due to $$, only a hobbyist here...). So, why dont I like the 6D, even though it probably is a great camera! Because it is not as good as it could be. I dont even think the 5D3 is as good as it could be. It is specced to fit a place in the marked, and priced to make the absolute most money. Perhaps the dSLR segment need more competition, as there are only two real competitors, Canon and Nikon.


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## J.R. (Jan 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Pitbullo said:
> 
> 
> > The 5D3 does not have an articulated screen. 60D does.
> ...



Canon and Nikon have held out against putting in an articulated LCD on their pro-level cameras on the ground that "Pro's don't want articulating screens". I chanced to read this here ... 

http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/nikon-pros-dont-want-articulating-screens-1062390

I wonder what Pro's Canon and Nikon talk to ... maybe it is really not required. I guess we would know more if some Pro's put in their comments on this. 

On an aside though, does the articulated screen impact the weather-sealing in any way? If not, then why do the companies not put them in the pro level cameras also? It's not like you have to use the articulated screen if it is available.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 27, 2013)

J.R. said:


> Canon and Nikon have held out against putting in an articulated LCD on their pro-level cameras on the ground that "Pro's don't want articulating screens".



I'm not a pro, but I guess pros either seldom do macro or often have dedicated video cameras with swivel screen - so that would leave event/sports/portrait, all of those don't require the swivel screen.

One factor might be that pros are more conservative - a good idea if the equipment should "just work" - and thus a major change on the camera body is always received with skepticism.



J.R. said:


> On an aside though, does the articulated screen impact the weather-sealing in any way?



I've read about this theory, but I really doubt this would be a serious issue if they were determined to do it - though in the 60d/600d-style cameras it probably wasn't the first priority.



J.R. said:


> It's not like you have to use the articulated screen if it is available.



... exactly, but it's a great lcd protection if traveling or lugging the camera around.

The one ridiculous (imho) argument I've read is that your screen can break off if flipped out and you drop the camera or the like - but I doubt this is a real world issue and you can wreck any camera if your're set on it.


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## Don Haines (Jan 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Yesterday I shot macro near the ground in the snow, I couldn't have done that with the 6d - I'm happy to lie flat in the mud to get good shots, but not in the freezing snow for an extended time :-(


Full moon last night...and minus 29C..... Shooting straight up in the air and VERY happy to have a swivel screen.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 27, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Yesterday I shot macro near the ground in the snow, I couldn't have done that with the 6d - I'm happy to lie flat in the mud to get good shots, but not in the freezing snow for an extended time :-(
> ...



Kudos to you, I only shot @-5C (but with a wet boot after I figured out that a fox is able to walk on thinner ice than me) :-> ... but -5C is probably worse than lower temperatures because whenever I came into contact with snow it melted and then froze again :-o

Really, I think most people that hate swivel screens never used it with tripod shots, if the 6d had it I'd be much more enthusiastic about spending the €2000.


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## J.R. (Jan 27, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> Full moon last night...and minus 29C..... Shooting straight up in the air and VERY happy to have a swivel screen.



Outstanding! I applaud your spirit and I'll make sure to show your post to my wife. She thought that I had lost my marbles when I went out to shoot the sunrise the other day when it was (only) -7C.



Marsu42 said:


> Kudos to you, I only shot @-5C (but with a wet boot after I figured out that a fox is able to walk on thinner ice than me) :-> ... but -5C is probably worse than lower temperatures because whenever I came into contact with snow it melted and then froze again :-o



Hope and expect that you are OK ... A friend of mine had frostbite last year under similar circumstances and it wasn't good.



Marsu42 said:


> Really, I think most people that hate swivel screens never used it with tripod shots, if the 6d had it I'd be much more enthusiastic about spending the €2000.



+1 for very low level shots BUT EUR 2000 for the 6D ... THAT'S GOTTA HURT!


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## Marsu42 (Jan 27, 2013)

J.R. said:


> Outstanding! I applaud your spirit and I'll make sure to show your post to my wife. She thought that I had lost my marbles when I went out to shoot the sunrise the other day when it was (only) -7C.



Thanks for the good wishes, I only shot for about an hour and kept moving while the camera shot the brackets - I know it's time to quit when I start to loose the feeling in the feet after extensive experience when skiing in the swiss alps :-o ... 

... but please tell your wife other photogs (i.e. me) think their best shots are from nighttime bracketed long exposure, right now it's snowing in Berlin and this night I plan to shoot some architecture with fresh snow


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## jrista (Jan 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Pitbullo said:
> 
> 
> > The 5D3 does not have an articulated screen. 60D does.
> ...



Articulating screens are the bane of weather sealing. The 5D line, being Canon's second-highest professional-grade line of cameras, is expected to have some of the best weather sealing that can be found in a camera. The addition of an articulating screen would make that nearly impossible to achieve to the degree it needs to be, difficult to achieve by any means. 

If you look at the 1D line, it doesn't even use a rotating knob for the primary mode control...it uses buttons. It uses buttons because they are much easier to weather seal, and the seals are more effective than the seal for something that turns or rotates.

When it comes to professional grade cameras, even those that support video, an articulating screen is probably the last thing on any serious professional's mind.


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## J.R. (Jan 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> ... but please tell your wife other photogs (i.e. me) think their best shots are from nighttime bracketed long exposure, right now it's snowing in Berlin and this night I plan to shoot some architecture with fresh snow



Thanks ... will do! Hope you get good shots!

OTOH being a hobbyist sometimes does not bode well with wives ... my wife already considers my cameras my first and most loved ...


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## Marsu42 (Jan 27, 2013)

jrista said:


> Articulating screens are the bane of weather sealing.



I'm not debating a sealed swivel screen is more of an engineering challenge than putting a rubber ring at the front of "sealed" bodies, but well, you know, after mankind flew to the Moon and is on its way to Mars...


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## J.R. (Jan 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Articulating screens are the bane of weather sealing.
> ...



You seem to be in a good mood today ;D


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## MintMark (Jan 27, 2013)

preppyak said:


> MintMark said:
> 
> 
> > Well, there's a 6D and a smartphone running EOS remote... but it's unwieldy if you're holding both of them.
> ...



I wonder... you will be using your wifi, but on the other hand your screen and its illumination will be off instead of on. I wonder which uses more energy and which contributes more heat and electrical noise inside the camera?

I like the thought that the screen on my 60D keeps the display hardware outside the body when I'm doing long exposure astro photos.

And speaking of weather sealing... what about the microphone holes?


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## Marsu42 (Jan 27, 2013)

J.R. said:


> You seem to be in a good mood today ;D



Well, for one after nearly freezing my a** off yesterday I really value this day of staying the sunday inside near the radiator and procrastinating on CR  ...



J.R. said:


> +1 for very low level shots BUT EUR 2000 for the 6D ... THAT'S GOTTA HURT!



... and I recently realized (again) that my 60d is a good camera with an appropriate price, currently I'm very happy with carrying around the 17-40L €1300 combination instead of a €5000 5d3+24-70L2, at least for my amateur recreation shots.

I know that I'll have to buy a ff camera for event shooting, but I've got some time left to practice with the 60d until the 6d drops further in price - just like you imho €2000 is a lot of money for any dslr and esp. for the 6d, though other people seem to think that it's a steal for a Canon ff and people should be happy it's even got working buttons :-o



MintMark said:


> I wonder which uses more energy and which contributes more heat and electrical noise inside the camera?



Wifi will eat more energy hands down than a dimmed down lcd - but I'd like to know how long exactly you can do lv with a smartphone, did any 6d owner do any benchmarks yet?


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## J.R. (Jan 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Wifi will eat more energy hands down than a dimmed down lcd - but I'd like to know how long exactly you can do lv with a smartphone, did any 6d owner do any benchmarks yet?



I had to delete my earlier post because I tried out what you had suggested (above). Well, the LCD does not dim when shooting nor does it go "off"/blank when shooting with a smartphone (not automatically at least and there is no setting that I notice to make it go off after a certain time lapse) ... I guess it can stay on for as long as the batter is alive or the EOS remote shooting is active on your phone. I've got my 6D connected to my iphone for the past 10 minutes and it shows no sign of timing out. 

Well ... the 6D timed out when my iphone locked itself up after the auto-lock at 15 minutes. It "woke up" as soon as I unlocked my phone. 

One can conclude therefore that shooting with a smartphone will reduce the battery life even further because both WiFi and LV are being used together.


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## zim (Jan 27, 2013)

MintMark said:


> preppyak said:
> 
> 
> > MintMark said:
> ...



what about the main dial behind the shutter button!


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## Marsu42 (Jan 27, 2013)

J.R. said:


> One can conclude therefore that shooting with a smartphone will reduce the battery life even further because both WiFi and LV are being used together.



You can solve this problem by using Magic Lantern (soon on the 6d) that features multiple custom power saving timers (like lcd dim/off). If you request a "lcd off on wifi remote" they'll probably also add this.


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## jrista (Jan 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Articulating screens are the bane of weather sealing.
> ...



It is not so much that it isn't physically possible to seal an articulating screen. Its that if you did, it would be a wearable part. All that articulation is going to stress the seal, eventually requiring it be replaced. Problem is, how do you know for sure when it needs to be replaced? And for people who aren't regular about taking their cameras in for a checkup and maintenance, do they only find out the seal wore out and cracked or developed a hole AFTER their camera short circuits while they were shooting in the rain?

As a matter of practicality, weather sealing generally seems to preclude the use of an articulating screen unless you are willing to take on the added risk that the seal may not hold, and could break at any point in time after you start articulating.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 27, 2013)

jrista said:


> As a matter of practicality, weather sealing generally seems to preclude the use of an articulating screen unless you are willing to take on the added risk that the seal may not hold, and could break at any point in time after you start articulating.



Afaik the degradation of sealing concerns any points, lens and buttons? Of course I recognize your point, but since I'm no engineer I've got the privilege to stay naive and still not entirely convinced sealing and swivel screen are mutually exclusive - after all people build space stations with some sealing that needn't replacement every other month...

... and concerning the 60d I just came back from 2h shooting in light rain with the swivel screen out and can happily report I've done that a lot of times and entirely trust the sealing to survive it, and that's the most extreme shooting situation I accept w/o running for shelter :-o


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## that1guyy (Jan 28, 2013)

jrista said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Pitbullo said:
> ...



Interesting. The Panasonic GH3 (a micro 4/3 camra) can be considered a pro or semi-pro camera. It has an articulated screen and is fully weather sealed (dust and splash proof). 

You understand Canon often lies about things like this. Don't trust everything they tell you . Just like how Canon said that clean hdmi out is not possible on the 5D mark iii but now, somehow by magic, its possible and coming in April? Canon is full of crap.


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