# A Real EOS M Replacement Coming Soon? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 17, 2014)

```
<p>We’ve been told that Canon has given word to various divisions around the globe that they will address the EOS M in December of this year. Apparently demo units have been recalled by Canon at customer centres in a couple of countries that aren’t in Asia, which suggests a truly global replacement of the EOS M.</p>
<p>December seems like an odd time for an announcement for an EOS M replacement. If it does in fact happen, I wouldn’t expect shipments to start until the new year.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


----------



## HaroldC3 (Nov 17, 2014)

It does seem like an odd time for an announcement since the a7000 is rumored to be announced in January. Let's just hope it's something similar to the a7000 rumored specs but my guess is it will have the same sensor as the 70d.


----------



## tayassu (Nov 17, 2014)

Realistically speaking, that would probably mean the 70D sensor, a mediocre AF system, no VF and some little handling changes... :/ come on, Canon, prove me wrong!


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Nov 17, 2014)

Finally a mirrorless must have the same sensor 70D.


----------



## Woody (Nov 17, 2014)

Darn, I just paid US$320 for an EOS-M 22 f/2 kit. 



tayassu said:



> Realistically speaking, that would probably mean the 70D sensor, a mediocre AF system, no VF and some little handling changes... :/ come on, Canon, prove me wrong!



Actually, if it has the 70D sensor, DPAF should be fast enough. Will like to see some kind of VF and definitely a wired remote connection.


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Nov 17, 2014)

tayassu said:


> Realistically speaking, that would probably mean the 70D sensor, a mediocre AF system, no VF and some little handling changes... :/ come on, Canon, prove me wrong!


Mediocre AF system? ???
Dual pixel AF has great performance without mirror. :


----------



## Khalai (Nov 17, 2014)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> tayassu said:
> 
> 
> > Realistically speaking, that would probably mean the 70D sensor, a mediocre AF system, no VF and some little handling changes... :/ come on, Canon, prove me wrong!
> ...



He is clearly referencing to the AF sluggishness, when original EOS M were introduced. After SW patch, thing got a little better, but he has a point in that a new M body would need really responsive AF system (possibly DPAF) to avoid being DoA...


----------



## tayassu (Nov 17, 2014)

I have not yet seen pleasing AF in the last Canon compact models (M, G1X, G7X also seems to perform not that well); I have still hope, but mediocre was what we saw in the last ones...


----------



## baervan (Nov 17, 2014)

come on Canon if the rumor's true bring it on!!! 

It's your chance to produce something innovative and exciting without astronomical price tag!!! 

GOGOGO!


----------



## mustafa (Nov 17, 2014)

My preference is for an APS-C version of the Panasonic GX7, same form factor (slightly larger probably) but obviously with Canon's best APS-C parts (AF, sensor, etc.). In other words an optimised-for-street, quick reflexes, rangefinder. Would need to have Panny's faults eliminated (lack of mic input, lukewarm video performance, etc.).

Would prefer GPS and articulated screen, but tilting screen would be OK. A decent wi-fi/app a necessity. Pop-up flash would be nice, but not a deal-breaker. Hot-shoe on top of a pop-up, anyone? M lenses are OK as a starting point.


----------



## Bob Howland (Nov 17, 2014)

Since we're doing wish lists, I'd like the M3 to be really small, like the Panasonic GM5. I'd like to replace my G10 with something having a much larger sensor. And, no, the G1X isn't it. Speaking of large sensors, how about a mirrorless FF, about the size of a Sony A6000 but using a shortened EF mount. That would be perfect. Since I always use a 270EX flash on my G10, a popup flash is unnecessary.


----------



## baervan (Nov 17, 2014)

Ah yes, wishlists!

Needed:
- AF on par with Sony/MFT
- EVF on par with Sony/MFT
- DPAF
- Zebras / Peaking

Optional:
- Tilty screen
- WiFi
- 60pfs @1080
- current form factor is great, but i wouldnt mind it a little bigger to accomodate good new features
- the grip could be bigger, i think it could easily bulge out to match the depth of the 22mm
- a better rear wheel and perhaps another good dial would be ace


----------



## DRR (Nov 17, 2014)

OK my wish list - 

Slightly bigger to accommodate better ergonomics. This is one of my main gripes with the existing M. Slightly larger grip like the GX7. As mentioned previously, better dial(s). 

Good EVF. Doesn't have to be best in class but respectable. Current M is impossible to use on a sunny day because you can't see what you're shooting on the LCD.

Good AF performance. Again it doesn't have to be the best, but it has to be good enough that it's not a weakness.

EF-M mount. APS-C. The 70D sensor with DPAF would be wonderful. Current EOS-M has decent build quality, I'd say no worse than that.

Introduce it with a native EF-M 56mm f/1.8.

I'd probably go $800 for a camera like that. Wifi would be nice too.


----------



## c.d.embrey (Nov 17, 2014)

It needs to be as good as an Olympus E-M1, a Panasonic GH4 or a Fuji X-T1. Anything less will not cause people to switch back to Canon.


----------



## Lee Jay (Nov 17, 2014)

For me, this camera has no chance of being interesting unless it has dual-pixel focusing, and a standard (slow) zoom that starts at 15mm (24mm equivalent) and retracts entirely inside the camera.


----------



## josephandrews222 (Nov 17, 2014)

I don't want the M to be any bigger.

Yes the AF needs big-time improving.

But I have a beef with those who post on this board and yammer on and on about the need for a viewfinder.

I was there...until I bought an M.

Shooting without a viewfinder is simply different...not necessarily better or worse...and after a ten-day family vacation where nearly all of my images were obtained with the M (and its 11-22mm lens, the M's killer app), I became quite familiar with its eccentricities...and I was hooked! And yes I still love traditional DSLRs (and their viewfinders).

What is WAYYYYYYY more important to this vacation/travel/street shooter...is (even a tiny) on-board flash.

I own the 270 flash...but don't always have it with me. Daylight vacation people shots BEG for the onboard flash...and the fact that my 40D has the onboard flash is one reason that it still gets used.

But I suspect that those who demand a viewfinder etc. really haven't used the M.


----------



## Lee Jay (Nov 17, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> For me, this camera has no chance of being interesting unless it has dual-pixel focusing, and a standard (slow) zoom that starts at 15mm (24mm equivalent) and retracts entirely inside the camera.



Oh yeah...one more thing. It has to have at least one (preferably more) 1:1 video crop mode.


----------



## Zv (Nov 17, 2014)

I think we'll see DPAF in the next Rebel / T whatever i, before we even get a sniff of it in an EOS M. The M line sits below the DSLRs. Unless Canon are about to leapfrog the M into a higher class with a more advanced feature set? Could be possible if they finally take mirrorless seriously. 

A new mount is unlikely unless they are completely abandoning the M mount. The recentish release of the 55-200 suggests they are still investing in it. 

I really like the M as it is. All it needs is much faster AF. The M2 fixes that to a certain extent and at it's current price in Japan it is really tempting but I really want to see where they are going with the next M to make a decision. 

Small and fast. That's all I want. Viewfinder and flash be damned. That's what rebels are for.


----------



## andrewflo (Nov 17, 2014)

An M3 that is very similar to the M2, but with a better sensor would be pretty rad and IMO the most realistic prediction I can come up with. Will we see something revolutionary? I'd certainly hope so but I'm not holding my breath.

Considering how accustomed I've become to the M's focus speed, the M2 looks like a dream in comparison (other mirrorless focus speeds seem unbelievable by these standards of course).

Is it possible to engineer something like the M to be pocketable w/ a 22mm attached? Maybe a 22mm Mark II to suite that need?

This camera in a pocketable size would win me over even at the ~$800 price point. But I completely understand that is probably not Canon's priority with an M3 as they have the G7X for that purpose.


----------



## Zv (Nov 17, 2014)

Oh and can we have an EF M 55mm f/1.8 IS STM please Canon? That would be the ultimate on an ultra small, ultra fast M3!! ;D


----------



## Hjalmarg1 (Nov 17, 2014)

tayassu said:


> Realistically speaking, that would probably mean the 70D sensor, a mediocre AF system, no VF and some little handling changes... :/ come on, Canon, prove me wrong!


I also hope you'll be wrong but it has to be really stunning to trade my sony a6000 which complements my Canon gear perfectly. Canon with the EOS-M has shown no aim to improve and get Canon users loyal to them in the mirrorless section. Poor offer of lenses and mediocre AF


----------



## Etienne (Nov 17, 2014)

I hope it has the size and controls of the Fuji X-T1, has the 7D2 sensor, a swivel screen, and lots of videocentric features.


----------



## jypfoto (Nov 17, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > For me, this camera has no chance of being interesting unless it has dual-pixel focusing, and a standard (slow) zoom that starts at 15mm (24mm equivalent) and retracts entirely inside the camera.
> ...



You're asking for a fixed lens compact? The M will/should remain an interchangeable mount system.


----------



## jypfoto (Nov 17, 2014)

Etienne said:


> I hope it has the size and controls of the Fuji X-T1, has the 7D2 sensor, a swivel screen, and lots of videocentric features.



I don't think it will be that drasticallly different from what is out now, they would be in fear of cannibalizing their DSLR sales.


----------



## Quackator (Nov 17, 2014)

Global shutter to unleash flash photography.
Die, x-sync, die!


----------



## Aichbus (Nov 17, 2014)

josephandrews222 said:


> But I suspect that those who demand a viewfinder etc. really haven't used the M.


I use the M as a third body with my 5DII and 6D. I use it with the 22 and 11-22 + plenty of EF lenses. The most annoying thing for me is actually a the lack of a viewfinder, because if you have the sun on the display it is next to impossible to frame the shot. I also own the Sony RX100 (first version) and kind of upgraded it to the M. The RX100 has the same problem of a lacking real viewfinder, but the RX100 III now has one. I tried it and my wish would be a viewfinder of that sort in the M (+ better AF, + GPS)


----------



## Lee Jay (Nov 17, 2014)

jypfoto said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



That slow zoom should be a standard available lens like a kit lens.


----------



## Chapman Baxter (Nov 17, 2014)

To those wanting wi-fi, the M2 already has this so it will obviously be on the next one.

Honestly, I'd be amazed if the new M had anything other than the 70D's DPAF sensor. No other Canon sensor would make any sense at all, either for the market or for Canon, if it wants to be competitive in this segment. Forget FF - they're not about to create a whole new line of lenses.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 17, 2014)

jypfoto said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > I hope it has the size and controls of the Fuji X-T1, has the 7D2 sensor, a swivel screen, and lots of videocentric features.
> ...


Even with the shortcomings of the existing M. It has already replaced my DSLR as a travelling camera. Canon can make a much better M and give customer a choice. People that prefer the DSLR will still buy the DSLR. People prefer a smaller, lighter camera and have no need for DSLR will by the better M. Has anybody ever have a concern about SL1 will cut into the sales of 7D ???


----------



## Rocky (Nov 17, 2014)

josephandrews222 said:


> I don't want the M to be any bigger.
> 
> Yes the AF needs big-time improving.
> 
> ...


You can always get the 90EX. It is so small that you do not even know that it is in your pocket.


----------



## traveller (Nov 17, 2014)

c.d.embrey said:


> It needs to be as good as an Olympus E-M1, a Panasonic GH4 or a Fuji X-T1. Anything less will not cause people to switch back to Canon.



I think that getting anyone who has bought into another mirrorless system to switch back to Canon is a big ask for a single camera at this stage. The best that Canon can hope for is to persuade the remaining fence sitters to try the EOS-M, probably those who already own a Canon DSLR. 

It's going to be a tough slog for Canon to get back into the mirrorless game; not only are they're behind on just about every metric, but they've demonstrated only luke warm interest in the market so far. If you had to spend your hard earned cash on buying into a mirrorless system right now, what would pursuade you to get an EOS-M? The only sane argument is price; that's not a good place to be when you're a company that has built a reputation upon being the professional's choice. 

The next EOS-M needs to be a great camera, because we all know that DXO will tear its sensor to shreds (unless Canon make the unlikely decision to debut new sensor technology in the EOS-M replacement, rather than the 7D Mk2). Some more interesting lens choices are not a just a nice-to-have, but a must-do-now.


----------



## weixing (Nov 17, 2014)

Hi,
No rebel yet, so may be the rebel will be replace by an M... a Rebel M... ;D

Have a nice day.


----------



## Etienne (Nov 17, 2014)

Rocky said:


> jypfoto said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



I have the original and it's nice to have a pocketable APS-C camera that can take all my other lenses (with adapter).

If it has the 70D sensor I'll probably get one if it is not overly expensive, and it's more responsive and includes video features. I'd pay substantially more with the 7D2 sensor in it. 

If this goes CR2 I'll probably by some more EF-M mount lenses. I've got the 22 f/2 (doesn't everyone), and the 11-22 IS so far.


----------



## Quackator (Nov 17, 2014)

DXO...... a good example for the discrepancy of measurements 
and the results in the real world.

After getting involved with trust-your-eyes.com we started to
wonder if the DXOmark has any real value at all.

Some of the worst lenses we tested rank high in their list.

So, would I care if they diss any new sensor? No.


----------



## jypfoto (Nov 17, 2014)

Rocky said:


> jypfoto said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



The SL1 and the 7D have so little in common that the target audience is different. If you release a mirrorless that's comparable to the what the other user was looking for (X-T1 like controls, 70D autofocus, swivel screen, video features), then it's basically the same as a 70D for around the same price or less, then it could potentially confuse the buyer.


----------



## Lee Jay (Nov 17, 2014)

traveller said:


> If you had to spend your hard earned cash on buying into a mirrorless system right now, what would pursuade you to get an EOS-M?



It's from a company that isn't loosing money selling cameras?


----------



## Sanaraken (Nov 17, 2014)

Waiting for an FF model with DPAF and 60 fps video.


----------



## jrista (Nov 17, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> For me, this camera has no chance of being interesting unless it has dual-pixel focusing, and a standard (slow) zoom that starts at 15mm (24mm equivalent) and retracts entirely inside the camera.




How do you make a lens that retracts into an ILC body? The EOS-M is an ILC, so the lenses have to be able to detach and be swapped out. With the probable flange-to-sensor distance, I find it highly unlikely were going to see a "pancake zoom" that could actually retract inside the EOS-M body.


----------



## Ebrahim Saadawi (Nov 17, 2014)

What it will probably have: 

20.2 MP, from the 7D mk II
DPAF 
5 fps
Digic 6 processor
1080p video at 60p, no aliasing as 7D mk II
Clean HDMI out with audio/timecode
An EVF 
3" touch screen
Intervalometer
Wifi

-I would really love such a small stills and video workhorse but only if the video aliasing part is true in that it's similar to the 7D mk II not the 70D. Don't screw video with your damn aliasing Canon, the A5100/6000 all got rid of it and have similar video to the 7D mk II and 5D mk III, this one should have it too considering the competition.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 17, 2014)

jypfoto said:


> The SL1 and the 7D have so little in common that the target audience is different. If you release a mirrorless that's comparable to the what the other user was looking for (X-T1 like controls, 70D autofocus, swivel screen, video features), then it's basically the same as a 70D for around the same price or less, then it could potentially confuse the buyer.


It will not be confusing. It become a matter of choice. If people spend $1500 to $2000 for a camera body, they should know exactly what they want.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 17, 2014)

Ebrahim Saadawi said:


> What it will probably have:
> 
> 20.2 MP, from the 7D mk II
> DPAF
> ...


Another item on the wish list: ability to disable and enable the touch screen easily( via a button??) with the AF selection on all the time.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 17, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> <p>December seems like an odd time for an announcement for an EOS M replacement. If it does in fact happen, I wouldn’t expect shipments to start until the new year.</p>


Why would you think that - the M2 was announced on December 3. and Japan / Asia had shipments before the end of the year.

a really quick google would have told you this.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 17, 2014)

Ebrahim Saadawi said:


> What it will probably have:
> 
> 20.2 MP, from the 7D mk II
> DPAF
> ...


think you added too much in there.

I suspect it will have an external EVF, i doubt it will have clean HDMI out and will probably have the 70D sensor, and not the 7DII sensor.


----------



## dppaskewitz (Nov 17, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Ebrahim Saadawi said:
> 
> 
> > What it will probably have:
> ...



As long as we are wishing: +1 on the ability to disable the touch screen; something to hang on to; and when shooting manual, a more robust dial (or separate controls) for adjusting aperture and shutter speed (so that one can avoid inadvertently switching between the two). These in addition to the list above (except the AF doesn't have to be on all the time and I really don't know or care about 1080P or aliasing - but understand others do). (And yes, I have used the M, and yes, very difficult to frame a shot in sunlight without EVF).


----------



## Etienne (Nov 17, 2014)

Ebrahim Saadawi said:


> What it will probably have:
> 
> 20.2 MP, from the 7D mk II
> DPAF
> ...



I don't care about the EVF, but a good swivel touch screen would be awesome.
7D2 sensor, WiFi ... excellent


----------



## AvTvM (Nov 17, 2014)

Canon should bring 2 Models:
• EOS 3 - as small as possible, = like EOS M2, with 70D sensor, fast enough DPAF, some minor improvements, price exactly like SL/100D
• EOS M Pro = "Fuji XT1 killer", 7D 2 sensor, AF speed best in class, EVF, built in flash, built in wifi, GPS and RT commander, fully articulated "retina" LCD, beefier grip to fit LO-E6N battery for 500 shots per charge. 

And never mind should those 2 models confuse some consumers. They can still go and buy a rebel or other mirrorslappers. 

I am sure Canon will keep the EF-M mount. It' specs are well chosen and the existing lens line-up are all price-weight-size-performance leaders. Add a few more good, small and cheap pancake primes (e.g. 12mm/4.0, 50/1.8, 80mm/2.8) and a 60/2.8 macro and everythinv will be just wonderful.


----------



## Bob Howland (Nov 17, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > <p>December seems like an odd time for an announcement for an EOS M replacement. If it does in fact happen, I wouldn’t expect shipments to start until the new year.</p>
> ...



Probably because he was thinking in terms of the Christmas buying season, same as me.


----------



## gn100 (Nov 17, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> Canon should bring 2 Models:
> • EOS 3 - as small as possible, = like EOS M2, with 70D sensor, fast enough DPAF, some minor improvements, price exactly like SL/100D
> • EOS M Pro = "Fuji XT1 killer", 7D 2 sensor, AF speed best in class, EVF, built in flash, built in wifi, GPS and RT commander, fully articulated "retina" LCD, beefier grip to fit LO-E6N battery for 500 shots per charge.
> 
> ...



I agree ..... I assume the M3 Pro will be named M3X ...... don't know why they both couldn't share the 7DII sensor - Canon need to use the latest sensors they have to avoid trailing the competition by too much. By putting a grip on the camera would allow a larger battery, one of the shortcomings of the current model


----------



## distant.star (Nov 17, 2014)

.
If Canon is getting ready to make their move now, I doubt they will use their own sensor. They have not demonstrated a sensor technology that can compete in the current mirrorless market.

Now that they've gone over that Rubicon by using a Sony sensor, it suggests we'll see more non-Canon sensors. Perhaps they'll get really smart and hook up with Toshiba.


----------



## KeithBreazeal (Nov 17, 2014)

I like some of the Sony a6000 features. Let's see how Canon has responded.
This better not be lame!


----------



## lescrane (Nov 17, 2014)

I was at a camera show/expo 2 weeks ago. First, I asked the Canon reps about the future of the EOS M. they joked around and said "well, there's an M2 in Asia." They handed me an SL1 and said 'well, this isn't much bigger and it gives you everything a mirrorless has"... End of story

Then I went to the SONY booth and handled an a6000. I've never shot a SONY, but the controls seemed very intuitive. It has the EVF and tiny flash onboard. I almost made the plunge, but waited. The only nitpick I have w/the SONY is NO TOUCHSCREEN. I can live w/o it, but I swear, everytime I switch from my 70D to my 60D I say "where's the touchscreen?"...well, another nitpick w/Sony..the kit lens, motorized zoom 16-50 got pretty bad reviews.

I did not know that an a7000 is due soon as per a previous post. I do most of my equip. buying in the fall, and next fall it will be either the Mxxx or Sony A....whatever. I realize there is no need to be "LOYAL" to Canon if they lag or ignore the mirrorless market. Unlike others, I never mount my EF lenses on my EOS M. I am quite pleased with the M 18-55. we shall see.


----------



## bf (Nov 17, 2014)

The Most needed Improvement: 
Much faster start up time

Then: WiFi, a viewfinder, improved focus system, Rotating LCD

Modes: Focus pick and silent mode

+ A native wide aperture portrait lens (between 55~135 mm F2)
+ We want the EF-m lenses back to USA!


----------



## bholliman (Nov 17, 2014)

Hope this rumor is true! I'd love to see Canon breath some life back into the M line. I really hope the M3 has DPAF an optional EVF and the 7DII sensor.


----------



## Etienne (Nov 17, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> Canon should bring 2 Models:
> • EOS 3 - as small as possible, = like EOS M2, with 70D sensor, fast enough DPAF, some minor improvements, price exactly like SL/100D
> • EOS M Pro = "Fuji XT1 killer", 7D 2 sensor, AF speed best in class, EVF, built in flash, built in wifi, GPS and RT commander, fully articulated "retina" LCD, beefier grip to fit LO-E6N battery for 500 shots per charge.
> 
> ...



I'd love to see a Pro version. There are already some cool looking lenses for the EF-M mount. The 11-22 is quite good. Samyang has a 8mm 2.8 fisheye and a 12mm f/2.0! All of these lenses are tiny yet can produce perfectly acceptable high quality images. We just need an awesome new body for them.

In fact a really good EOS-M3 with a 7D2 sensor would go straight to the top of my "Buy Now" list.


----------



## KeithBreazeal (Nov 17, 2014)

lescrane said:


> I was at a camera show/expo 2 weeks ago. First, I asked the Canon reps about the future of the EOS M. they joked around and said "well, there's an M2 in Asia." They handed me an SL1 and said 'well, this isn't much bigger and it gives you everything a mirrorless has"... End of story
> 
> Then I went to the SONY booth and handled an a6000. I've never shot a SONY, but the controls seemed very intuitive. It has the EVF and tiny flash onboard. I almost made the plunge, but waited. The only nitpick I have w/the SONY is NO TOUCHSCREEN. I can live w/o it, but I swear, everytime I switch from my 70D to my 60D I say "where's the touchscreen?"...well, another nitpick w/Sony..the kit lens, motorized zoom 16-50 got pretty bad reviews.
> 
> I did not know that an a7000 is due soon as per a previous post. I do most of my equip. buying in the fall, and next fall it will be either the Mxxx or Sony A....whatever. I realize there is no need to be "LOYAL" to Canon if they lag or ignore the mirrorless market. Unlike others, I never mount my EF lenses on my EOS M. I am quite pleased with the M 18-55. we shall see.



I hear you. I bought a SL-1 for my pole-cam project and it's great! It's the first touch screen I have owned and it's really nice.  I read & watches several a6000 reviews and I'm within a few months of making the leap to some good mirrorless body. With the additional cost of the EF to M adapter, it's still appealing. The cool thing about the optical adapter is the gain of about one f stop!( 2.8 = 2.0) 
If Canon or Sony offers the "perfect combo" I'll jump on it. I hope for Canon so the AF system works well with EF lenses. The nice thing about mirrorless is that it's quiet.


----------



## KeithBreazeal (Nov 17, 2014)

A new FF mirrorless with a touch screen and built like the 5D Mark III is what I wish for.
The frames per second would smoke anything on the market. Just sayin' 8)


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 17, 2014)

I think alot of you are pipe dreaming.

assuming this is just ONE camera body. canon's actually had half decent japan success with the EOS-M, it's been a top seller at BCN for months now. I've been watching it at BCN since around July - and it's been floating in the top 10 of cameras, and #1/#2 slot of MILC's since then. it's only been recently that it has not been the #1 MILC in japan.

the lenses canon has developed do not speak to a "pro model" coming out. they have very "rebel" / "comsumer" lenses. expecting anything outside of that is asking for heartache.

and in reality - who's selling "pro" mirrorless anyways? if you look at amazon is the A7's really selling, Fuji's? in any great quantities? not really. not even on BCN.

cheap and small sell for MILC's - just look at amazon japan's top 5 list.

It would be odd for canon to do anything outside of create "rebel" tiers, by pushing the M and M2 down further for prices, and adding in a slightly higher specced M3 - with really the same ergonomics.

Do they need to? yes. the only MILC's that even sell in amazon japan are hugely cost slashed (from sony, panasonic, olympus and canon). that's not going to stop, so canon's going to need to push the M2 down to the same cost level of the M, discontinue the M and continue.

it's also only been a year since the M2 - that also isn't much time for drastic changes to the architecture. Even if they evaluated the success or lack thereof of the original M we're only talking 2 years to adjust their strategy. that's not exactly alot of time.

if canon continue to play the size game, highly unlikely they'll get an EVF, flash, hotshoe AND current 3:2 LCD, the EF-M mount all in the same form factor. they may get a micro flash in there aka .. the G1X Mark II - and add an EVF externally. Would that make sense? I can hear the crying already - but it would keep the form factor and the base cost down so that in a year - this model can be cost cut down too.

Do they need a bigger model? think SL1 form factor, with grip, better ergos, etc. Yes. but that really is a different beast all together.

if this is an M3, I'd expect the 70D sensor, some faster AF algorithms, wifi of course. maybe the G7X styled screen. if we're really lucky the G7X control dial, maybe built in flash and EVF accessory.

I'd be happy with that as a iteration. I'd be thrilled if we get more - but in reality .. canon isn't looking at competing with anyone right now, they are looking at building out a system slowly that actually makes sense.


----------



## c.d.embrey (Nov 18, 2014)

jypfoto said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > I hope it has the size and controls of the Fuji X-T1, has the 7D2 sensor, a swivel screen, and lots of videocentric features.
> ...



Steve Jobs said: *"If you don't cannibalize yourself, someone else will."* For me, that someone else was *Olympus*. I've already bought my last Canon DSLR, and if Canon doesn't come out with a *Pro Mirrrrorless* I've already bought my last Canon camera.


----------



## Lee Jay (Nov 18, 2014)

KeithBreazeal said:


> A new FF mirrorless with a touch screen and built like the 5D Mark III is what I wish for.
> The frames per second would smoke anything on the market. Just sayin' 8)



So, you want a slow focusing camera with a slow viewfinder to shoot quickly? Why?


----------



## Lee Jay (Nov 18, 2014)

c.d.embrey said:


> jypfoto said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



I plan to buy two Canon dSLRs in the next 12 months, and the odds of me buying either a pro or consumer mirrorless are essentially zero.


----------



## distant.star (Nov 18, 2014)

c.d.embrey said:


> I've already bought my last Canon DSLR, and if Canon doesn't come out with a *Pro Mirrrrorless* I've already bought my last Canon camera.



I'm in that same camp. I've already stopped buying anything Canon related. And my mind is slowly migrating to a full Fuji system after working with the X100S since the Spring.

Things may be different if I had any interest in BIF, wildlife, sports and other distant moving things.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 18, 2014)

c.d.embrey said:


> jypfoto said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



pro mirrorless without the lenses to back it up .. yeah, sounds like you want to purchase a sony - that's what they do.


----------



## infared (Nov 18, 2014)

c.d.embrey said:


> jypfoto said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



I have to agree...Canon is being increasingly eaten away at by mirrorless cameras from Sony, Fuji, olOympus and Panasonic cameras ( and others). As those systems grow with more and better quality lenses and improved sensor quality ...more and more photographers will migrate to those systems because of the small footprint. I myself have an extensive MFT Kit that compliments my FF Canon kit...and I am using my FF gear less and less.
It makes no sense to watch Canon play Ostrich with this new camera market...but that is what they have done so far either deliberately or by lack of awareness.


----------



## KeithBreazeal (Nov 18, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> KeithBreazeal said:
> 
> 
> > A new FF mirrorless with a touch screen and built like the 5D Mark III is what I wish for.
> ...



I'm 65 and slower than my 5D Mark III, so no problem.


----------



## Woody (Nov 18, 2014)

Actually, if Canon is losing customers to the mirrorless camp, Nikon is in a worse situation. 

For a start, Canon chose their sensor size right. As many folks have already indicated, myself included, all Canon needs to do is introduce an EOS-M2 update with DPAF and they are nearly there. Throw in features like EVF, Wifi, articulate screen, more lenses etc and they are almost ready to duke it out against the A6000/EM1/XT1.

Nikon, on the other hand, probably needs to throw out their over-priced small sensor 1 series cameras, lenses and accessories, and return to the drawing board.


----------



## AvTvM (Nov 18, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> pro mirrorless without the lenses to back it up .. yeah, sounds like you want to purchase a sony - that's what they do.



Lenses are there. eF-M are "pro" enough. Plus all "pro"/ L lenses with EF mount can be used via small and simple adapter. No need to re-invent the wheel.

The only thing missing is a "pro enough" EOS-M body. Something at least as "pro" as a fuji XT-1 or Olympus OMD1 with as "pro" an AF system as a Sony A6000. 

Whether canon calls it "M3" or Rebel something ... Does not matter to me, as long as it is small, very good and very affordable.

that said, APS-C sensored EOS-M system is only a stop gap or stepping stone to "truly pro-grade" FF mirrorless system to come. As "pro" as the next iteration of sony A7/R/S.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 18, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > pro mirrorless without the lenses to back it up .. yeah, sounds like you want to purchase a sony - that's what they do.
> ...



pro enough never to sell?
these sell is such small quantities why would canon even bother?

I don't even think the Fuji Xt1 even makes a blip on bcn's japan rankings let alone anywhere else.

I mean, here's a news flash .. the people that hang on in dpreview, cr forums .. aren't the mass buying public. while it's certainly good to tailor to us if you have no market (like sony, Fuji,etc) does .. it's not exactly profitable for Canon or Nikon to migrate R&D away from other areas, nor does it build an installed base in the lens mount.

MILC / Small FF is even more against what canon is saying they wish to do with MILC - which is to get it even smaller.


----------



## Arctic Photo (Nov 18, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> Canon should bring 2 Models:
> • EOS 3 - as small as possible, = like EOS M2, with 70D sensor, fast enough DPAF, some minor improvements, price exactly like SL/100D
> • EOS M Pro = "Fuji XT1 killer", 7D 2 sensor, AF speed best in class, EVF, built in flash, built in wifi, GPS and RT commander, fully articulated "retina" LCD, beefier grip to fit LO-E6N battery for 500 shots per charge.
> 
> ...


That makes sense. I'd get the regular one as a second body. I have been on and off about getting the current M anyway, but a better sensor wouldn't hurt anything except the wallet.

Maybe they would need some more lenses also, particularly primes. Someone mentioned a 55 1.8 which would make for a great portrait option.


----------



## Arctic Photo (Nov 18, 2014)

c.d.embrey said:


> jypfoto said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...


Jobs was also against a small iPad and a large iPhone.


----------



## Tugela (Nov 18, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> c.d.embrey said:
> 
> 
> > jypfoto said:
> ...



I plan to buy dSLR in the next 12 months, and the odds of me buying either a pro or consumer mirror system are essentially zero.

I have seen the future and am no longer interested in the past.


----------



## Ivan Muller (Nov 18, 2014)

Lets hope it has the new 7d2 sensor plus an EVF, or at least a 'clip on' viewfinder....


----------



## AvTvM (Nov 18, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> pro enough never to sell?
> these sell is such small quantities why would canon even bother?
> I don't even think the Fuji Xt1 even makes a blip on bcn's japan rankings let alone anywhere else.
> I mean, here's a news flash .. the people that hang on in dpreview, cr forums .. aren't the mass buying public. while it's certainly good to tailor to us if you have no market (like sony, Fuji,etc) does .. it's not exactly profitable for Canon or Nikon to migrate R&D away from other areas, nor does it build an installed base in the lens mount.
> MILC / Small FF is even more against what canon is saying they wish to do with MILC - which is to get it even smaller.



Japan is a different market, full of gadget-lovers. Things have to be tiny and shiny. Functionality is not so important, as long as something is "brand new", "cute" and available in 16 different colors or perfume-bottle shaped. 

In Europe the market segment with disposable income to spend on photo gear values functionality, control/UI and perfomance over everything else. That's why we like to buy Audi, BMW, Mercedes cars and "higher end" cameras plus good lenses. 

Fuji XT-1 and Olympus OMD's and Panasonic GH-# are selling very well in german speaking Europe ... and lots of "Canon and Nikon leakers" towards both systems, but more towards Fuji ... due to sensor size [APS-C vs. mFT]. 

In the US there may still be a bit of "the bigger it is, the better it is" [DSLR >> compact Mirrorless] sentiment, but most prosumers have learnt by now that it ain't necessarily so. 8) 

Fuji XT-1 has not made any impact in the US yet ... since it is only shipping now: http://photorumors.com/2014/11/17/fujifilm-x-t1-mirrorless-camera-now-shipping/

I expect mirrorless sales to be quite strong during Black Friday season with all those massive discounts on offer. 
http://photorumors.com/2014/11/17/significant-discounts-offered-by-almost-all-camera-manufacturers/


----------



## Marsu42 (Nov 18, 2014)

Ivan Muller said:


> Lets hope it has the new 7d2 sensor plus an EVF, or at least a 'clip on' viewfinder....



Sooner or later Canon will cash in on their dual pixel af advantage, it's just a question of getting the software and computing power right so a touchscreen live view and evf af is up to consumer demands. 

They don't seem to be there yet and things probably don't work out as planned as the huge "Asia only M2" embarrassment shows. Few people would have bet a world-wide M3 would take so much time to be released, leaving people with the only choice of buying and already obsoleted camera.



c.d.embrey said:


> Steve Jobs said: "If you don't cannibalize yourself, someone else will."



Btw I doubt a Rebel will get the 7d2's sensor soon as they'd instantly devaluate the 70d - Canon doesn't share Job's wisdom. And *if* there's a Rebel with the 7d2's sensor it will be severely limited not to cannibalize.


----------



## Lee Jay (Nov 18, 2014)

Tugela said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > c.d.embrey said:
> ...



A dSLR has a mirror, by definition.


----------



## Zv (Nov 18, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > pro enough never to sell?
> ...



I think that is a little bit of an over simplified and perhaps stereotypical view of the Japanese market. I don't disagree with you fully, you certainly have a point about the "cute" and "different colors" thing but that doesn't represent the majority. They do tend to follow trends and when something becomes trendy almost everyone ends up owning it. Like the iPhone. 

When it comes to cameras though things are a bit more traditional as this is the land of cameras after all. I still see a whole lot of DSLRs , in black  kicking about. Way more than colorful mirrorless cameras. Spotting an EOS M is a fun game for me and I get excited when someone else has one! I'll admit it has mainly been women that have owned them and sometimes I feel like shouting "my other camera is a 6D! Honest!"


----------



## jypfoto (Nov 18, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > pro enough never to sell?
> ...



That's for the Graphite edition of the X-T1, the standard X-T1 has been selling since February/March of this year, or 8-9 months ago. 

Sales being strong when you have to cut the price and offer massive packages isn't a good sign. Either you were too optimistic with the asking price or your consumers just don't feel like your product has enough value for them at the asking price. For the time being Canikon has no problems with sales just by the fact that they slap their name on the outside. Other manufacturers are struggling with sales and often only move enough product when they drastically cut the price. 

Look at the Panasonic GX7, it has many of the features that everyone is suggesting that the next M has. It has a EVF, it has a touch screen, tilt screen, wifi, has fast AF. It also has a nice grip, has focus peaking, has decent enough video controls. Also has a strong lens lineup behind it with the vast amount of m4/3 glass from both Panasonic and Olympus. Yet it was released at $999 and sales struggled. Panasonic went on record to say that they would be evaluating the entire line GX line. Now you can find it for $697 on B&H and I have to question how many they're selling now that it's considered 'old' tech.


----------



## DRR (Nov 18, 2014)

josephandrews222 said:


> But I suspect that those who demand a viewfinder etc. really haven't used the M.



Well I'm one of those people, and I own one. I'm even a pre-firesale owner. 

What you call eccentricities, I call a dealbreaker. In full sun the onboard LCD is useless. You can't see anything well enough to actually frame a shot, and when you use a second hand to shade the LCD, you lose a bunch of stability holding the camera, especially since it's got that tiny useless grip so you have to "pinch" it to hold it steady. I bought the Freniac grip and that helps the grip problem, but there's no solution to the full sun problem.

It is what it is, and I can live with its limitations for the purpose I need it to serve, but I've also learned that in full sun, I just have to set it on auto, and spray and pray. If it had a decent EVF and a firmware option to change the REC button to backbutton focus I'd use it for a lot more, but right now it's my "oh I probably won't need a camera" camera.


----------



## TWI by Dustin Abbott (Nov 18, 2014)

I'm with those that think that some kind of EVF is important. In many settings the LCD is fine, but as some have pointed out, in bright sunlight it's value is completely undone. Furthermore, my reviewing of lenses longer than the 55mm limit that existed before have made me realize how difficult telephoto shooting is with a LCD only. It is a jittery, imprecise experience. The 55-200 STM and the Tamron 18-200 highlight the need for an EVF.

My other priority would be the DPAF. That would help address the other issue shooting telephoto (AF speed and accuracy) and make the camera more well rounded. 

I am actually consistently impressed with the sensor on the M. I recently used a 60D for a review and the RAW files out of the M were much cleaner than the 60D files. I like the camera enough that I certainly would consider investing in a worthy upgrade. I also think the lenses made so far for the system are "pro" enough - they just need to fill some of the holes in the lineup. A true macro lens and a good 50mm would be a great start.


----------



## crashpc (Nov 18, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> Btw I doubt a Rebel will get the 7d2's sensor soon as they'd instantly devaluate the 70d - Canon doesn't share Job's wisdom. And *if* there's a Rebel with the 7d2's sensor it will be severely limited not to cannibalize.



Actually, I think it´s possible even absolutelly opposite way. It took time, but there was 70D after 7D, with some better specs and better sensor. This can happen with EOS mirrorless easily. They can not only put the same sensor in, they can even put better one in there, if they cripple the camera enaugh, and let 1) the old sensor in dust 2) sell generally good camera with great AF, which wouldn´t be eaten by something with 5FPS and poor (not slow) AF, ergonomics and stuff. It´s doable, and I´d buy it for smaller size and better sensor, while for BIFs there wouldn´t be any other way than 7D II...


----------



## Marsu42 (Nov 18, 2014)

crashpc said:


> Actually, I think it´s possible even absolutelly opposite way. It took time, but there was 70D after 7D, with some better specs and better sensor.



I doubt the 7d2 update was going as planned, that's why there were so many rumors around for a long time and the 2.0 firmware update for the 7d1 prolonging its life - a rather unusual move for Canon. Imho they didn't have the tech ready for a 7d2 as soon as they wished to, but released a 70d comprised which is essentially a modified 7d1 like the 6d is a modified 5d2.

Probably it's also a question of sensor production, i.e. if they can just do a drop-in update of the 70d process to 7d2 or if there is some different processing in a different fab involved. The 70d seems like the last evolution of the 18mp line to me, while at least the "quantum efficiency" data for the 7d2 suggests they indeed changed something.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 18, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > pro enough never to sell?
> ...


if you think you know the market - and you just think the X-T1 is shipping / selling now - you have a problem. that's the graphite model.

CIPA suggests that only around 50,000 MILC units are shipped into NA each month. Only 30,000 units shipped into NA September 2014 against 350K DSLR's.

Yeah there may be black Friday sales - that's just the point. MILC's are selling when they are cost cut down and sold off as bargains.

The NEX-7 was a great seller over in NA here when? when it was slashed as 40% off after the A6000 came out. the A6000 started to move .. when? when they cut the price down further. 

Meanwhile - canon and Nikon are happily selling D750's and 7D Mark II's for full retail pricing at greater volumes.

and we're not even talking about X-T1's.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 18, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> crashpc said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, I think it´s possible even absolutelly opposite way. It took time, but there was 70D after 7D, with some better specs and better sensor.
> ...



well there was the earthquake and tsunami that hit a fair amount of canon facilities including R&D and manufacturing.


----------



## Tugela (Nov 18, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> crashpc said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, I think it´s possible even absolutelly opposite way. It took time, but there was 70D after 7D, with some better specs and better sensor.
> ...



I doubt that even the current 7D2 is what they wanted, it is what they had to go with. IMO they had something like the 70D in mind originally for the 7D2, then it became obvious that the 4K revolution was arriving in 2014. At some point in mid/late 2012 I think they stopped and tried to redevelop their 7D2 program for that, while releasing much of their efforts up to that point as the 70D. But they failed to get the 4K technology moving forward on schedule adequate for the revised 7D2, so to cut their losses they released their original 7D2 concept, which is essentially a 70D with a better engineered body.

The real revised 7D2 tech is likely still in development, so I would not be at all surprised if a 7D3 arrives in a year or so.

Basically they had a big fumble when they failed to have the foresight to anticipate the arrival of 4K video, and you can see this in both their camera and camcorder lines, where it is very clear that something dramatic happened internally at Canon in mid/late 2012 that caused them to panic. Their product development plans have been a mess ever since and they are on the back foot relative to competitors such as Sony and Panasonic.


----------



## Marsu42 (Nov 18, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> well there was the earthquake and tsunami that hit a fair amount of canon facilities including R&D and manufacturing.



Good point, I had forgotten about that.



Tugela said:


> The real revised 7D2 tech is likely still in development, so I would not be at all surprised if a 7D3 arrives in a year or so.



I doubt it, Canon has a reputation for not obsoleting their premium cameras in quick succession to protect their customer's investment.



Tugela said:


> Basically they had a big fumble when they failed to have the foresight to anticipate the arrival of 4K video, and you can see this in both their camera and camcorder lines, where it is very clear that something dramatic happened internally at Canon in mid/late 2012 that caused them to panic. Their product development plans have been a mess ever since and they are on the back foot relative to competitors such as Sony and Panasonic.



Interesting theory. I don't do video myself and thus 4k isn't on my mind at all - and the video crowd seems to move away from hybrid dslr solutions anyway. What I do predict is Canon trying to merge stills and video, i.e. basically grabbing stills from 4k (or higher) video and af'ing with their dual pixel af. This would not give you ~10fps while wearing down your mirror, but maybe 120fps at a resolution still sufficient for many purposes.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 18, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > well there was the earthquake and tsunami that hit a fair amount of canon facilities including R&D and manufacturing.
> ...


I don't think TI's DSP that canon uses in DIGIC supported 4K until last year - DiGiC 6 was out / developed way before then.

actually I stand corrected.
the current TI DSP's do NOT support 4K. any 4K related work has to be done off chip and using a third party encoder chip.

(which would seem to indicate that there's more underneath the hood of the 1DC)


----------



## fxk (Nov 19, 2014)

I'll have to wait and see. [CR1 or not] Canon has a poor track record with the M.

I do hope they do make a "pro" version - I have the three lenses, and like the camera concept - the execution is somewhat off.

Someone noted the viewfinder useless in sunlight. Too true. I gone to carrying a Hoodman-like device so I can use the camera outdoors and at eye level. Kind of defeats the size advantage, though weighs next to nothing. A good EVF that can also mount a flash - one "smart" hot shoe won't cut it.

Now the camera is basically useful (with the addition of the Hoodman) which also solves inadvertently touching the touch screen. Next is the dial under the left thumb needs some type of lock - settings are different each time I pick the camera up - which slows the operation.

With a couple tweaks using full-sized photographers (size xxl glove) for input, this could be a very fine camera platform, indeed. 

So one does not get the wrong impression, the ability to mount all my EF lenses, and all my old Leica glass was some of the major selling points - and the ability to fit in my motorcycle luggage without sucking up too much space.
frank


----------



## lw (Nov 19, 2014)

Not really sure why people see the 70D/7DMKII dual-pixel sensor as the savior of the M and make it able to compete with the best mirrorless cameras out there.

The biggest criticism of the M has been AF performance in comparison to other mirrorless cameras that can rival conventional PDAF DSLRs.
Though the dual-pixel sensor improves the live-view AF of Canon DSLRs it still comes nowhere near their PDAF performance, not the performance of mirrorless cameras.
See the performance figures for the 70D on http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-70d/canon-70dA6.HTM
_The Canon 70D's AF lag time in Live View mode was quite a bit longer than when using the optical viewfinder, and *slower than most mirrorless cameras*, however it was faster than average for Live View on a DSLR._

It will be an improvement on the M of course, but don't expect it to be billed as a OMD beater in the AF stakes.

Of course, AF performance is not the sole criteria for judging a camera...

Disclaimer: I own both an M and a 70D - so am not some mirrorless fanboy here to knock Canon.


----------



## Vikmnilu (Nov 19, 2014)

As soon as Canon releases a full frame EOS M or similar mirrorless, they have me onboard with the M system. Of course assuming a similar IQ as the modern full frame DSRL cameras. For landscapes and general photography I will trade my 5D mark II for a much lighter mirrorless, any time (hiking is getting harder with all the weight of the camera + lenses).
then for wildlife and some sports I do, 7D mark II with tripod/monopod wouldo do.

Now the question is how long do we have to wait?

Cheers!
Victor


----------



## Lee Jay (Nov 19, 2014)

Vikmnilu said:


> As soon as Canon releases a full frame EOS M or similar mirrorless, they have me onboard with the M system. Of course assuming a similar IQ as the modern full frame DSRL cameras. For landscapes and general photography I will trade my 5D mark II for a much lighter mirrorless, any time (hiking is getting harder with all the weight of the camera + lenses).
> then for wildlife and some sports I do, 7D mark II with tripod/monopod wouldo do.
> 
> Now the question is how long do we have to wait?
> ...



Well, since the M lenses are all crop-sensor lenses, I'd say a long, long time. Maybe forever.


----------



## Zv (Nov 19, 2014)

Vikmnilu said:


> As soon as Canon releases a full frame EOS M or similar mirrorless, they have me onboard with the M system. Of course assuming a similar IQ as the modern full frame DSRL cameras. For landscapes and general photography I will trade my 5D mark II for a much lighter mirrorless, any time (hiking is getting harder with all the weight of the camera + lenses).
> then for wildlife and some sports I do, 7D mark II with tripod/monopod wouldo do.
> 
> Now the question is how long do we have to wait?
> ...



For landscapes the EOS M + 11-22 is a pretty good alternative for hiking. The IS makes it really useful for those sunset and blue hour shots. Plus if you need a tripod a much smaller and lighter one is all you really need. If you shoot RAW you'll not notice a huge difference between the end result (after PP) of this set up and FF. It surprised me how good the IQ from the M actually is. 

The closest lightest FF equivalent of the above combo is a Sony A7 / or 6D with a EF 16-35 f/4L IS. I'll let you calculate how much the difference in cost is. You have to ask yourself are you getting that much better IQ? Better - yes but ten times better? No way.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 19, 2014)

Vikmnilu said:


> As soon as Canon releases a full frame EOS M or similar mirrorless, they have me onboard with the M system. Of course assuming a similar IQ as the modern full frame DSRL cameras. For landscapes and general photography I will trade my 5D mark II for a much lighter mirrorless, any time (hiking is getting harder with all the weight of the camera + lenses).
> then for wildlife and some sports I do, 7D mark II with tripod/monopod wouldo do.
> 
> Now the question is how long do we have to wait?
> ...



forever?

not to mention if you wanted a lightweight option APS-C or larger, nothing will get you there cheaper or lighter than an M with the 11-22mm. All three EF-M zooms combined with body I believe weigh in at less than 2.5lbs - that's 11mm to 200mm.

why would you want full frame which increases that weight dramatically?


----------



## mirrorless (Nov 19, 2014)

I'm afraid that this 'new' Eos M will be just a minor facelift.. no integrated evf, no control wheels, nothing special from IQ perspective.
But.. as long as it's not announced there's still some hope.


----------



## Tugela (Nov 19, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



The 1DC probably does it's encoding in software rather than hardware. The consumer products do all of their encoding in hardware, so you are stuck with HD if you use a DIGIC 6 or lower. Any Canon consumer product that does 4K will probably have a DIGIC 7 processor in it.

The dual processor products should be able to handle software encoding though, provided that they have adequate bandwidth internally and the camera design can deal with the thermal envelope.


----------



## Vikmnilu (Nov 19, 2014)

Zv said:


> Vikmnilu said:
> 
> 
> > As soon as Canon releases a full frame EOS M or similar mirrorless, they have me onboard with the M system. Of course assuming a similar IQ as the modern full frame DSRL cameras. For landscapes and general photography I will trade my 5D mark II for a much lighter mirrorless, any time (hiking is getting harder with all the weight of the camera + lenses).
> ...



Thanks Zv for your input!

I actually thought about the EOS M some time ago, but still does not convince me. Even at a shop today took a look at it, but....
I forgot to mention that I also like to shoot stars and northern lights and thus a high iso performance is convenient. I am not convinced at all about the ISO in crop cameras. I bought a 550D for my gf and I was actually surprised at the very good IQ, just that the high iso is very bad. I also like the perspective of wide lenses for landscapes, stars and northern lights (have a sigma 12 24mm) , so for that matter a FF is the way to go. I also kind of got hooked to L lenses , at least if I can afford them, which is not always. I'd rather dont buy anhting if it is not L, but maybe I am wrong. 

maybe not the M but seriously thinking in a 6D. Thought some time ago about the Sony A7 but still not 100% sure about lens compatibility.

Well, anyway, now in the process to get rid of the old 24 70 2.8 that weights darn too much, planning to go for version II. If Iwould not need 2.8 I would buy the f4, but the aperture has been nice, overall. Other alternatives are the 16-35mm 2.8 but maybe wait.

Also trying to sell a 24mm 1.4L II but difficult to sell in Finland for the price I want, people go for the zooms instead in most of the cases.

Well, maybe I should open a thread myself 

Cheers from Finland!!! 

Victor


----------



## Tugela (Nov 19, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > well there was the earthquake and tsunami that hit a fair amount of canon facilities including R&D and manufacturing.
> ...



But that is exactly what they did in their camcorder line in 2013. If you recall, the G20 was released at CES in 2013, then just 3 months later they released it's successor (the G30) at NAB. Anyone who bought a G20, which is not a cheap camera as camcorders go, would have good reason to be just a little peeved by that. There is no reason to think that they would not do the same with the 7D2.

My theory in early 2014, when it became clear that 4K was arriving that year in consumer products, was that the G30 was originally planned for a mid 2014 release, but that development was stopped and the camera released immediately in 2013 to recover investment, so that they could do a 4K G40 in 2014 instead. But that got bogged down in development so it did not happen in 2014. The 7D2 probably had the same development issues that the G40 had (since both would require a new DIGIC processor to handle 4K). The 7D2 that came to market would then have been the original concept that had been shelved to make room for 4K. If that is the case then a 7D3 will probably arrive in the second half of 2015 or early 2016. Both the 5D4 and 6D2 will almost certainly come with the features that should have been in the 7D2 since they will have had enough time to get the new processors ready by then. They will probably come in 2015. I think we will see the G40 (along with the pro versions) arrive in 2015 as well.

The problem is that by then the competition will be into their second generation in the 4K revolution, and will Canon have caught up with that by then?


----------



## Vikmnilu (Nov 19, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> Vikmnilu said:
> 
> 
> > As soon as Canon releases a full frame EOS M or similar mirrorless, they have me onboard with the M system. Of course assuming a similar IQ as the modern full frame DSRL cameras. For landscapes and general photography I will trade my 5D mark II for a much lighter mirrorless, any time (hiking is getting harder with all the weight of the camera + lenses).
> ...



Hei rrcphoto, 

I think at some point, that may be (yes) far away in time, canon will release a FF mirrorless. If Sony has done it, so will Canon, I think they will have customers if they keep the good work.

You are the second person that recommends the M, maybe I should take a deeper look at it  Is the 11-22mm comparable to a L lens.... ? I guess not, although may be very good.. i am hooked t L lenses, although they are expensive. i guess I cannot have it all.... 

I think going with zooms and maybe 6D in some time will make it. I have the lightest 70 200 L which I love and planning to keep or upgrade to the 70 300mm L which I like because of the extra reach and weight, although a bit bigger than the 70 200L f4.

Cheers from Finland!

Victor


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 19, 2014)

Vikmnilu said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Vikmnilu said:
> ...



well the 11-22mm EF-M until the 16-35/4 came out this year I would have easily said was canon's best ultrawide.

pound for pound it's not that far off the 16-35/4 - and even the MTF's would suggest that. DPP's DLO also helps with this lens as well, making the comparison and what you can really get out of it even a smaller difference.

however as with most crop cameras - you have to work harder in post processing to get your max out of it.

and the EF-M is only 400 USD - the M2 plus three lens kit can be had for around 1K.

high ISO - yeah, it's probably 2/3's of a stop off of the 7DII's which makes it around 1 2/3's stop or so off of 5D II . 

Another lens - the 12mm 2.0 Samyang may be one you want for nightscapes - like it's 14mm big brother very little coma and pretty sharp wide open, and at 2.0 and good wide open, would give you around a stop more than you could get from a full frame lens that wide - and is still rather small.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 19, 2014)

mirrorless said:


> I'm afraid that this 'new' Eos M will be just a minor facelift.. no integrated evf, no control wheels, nothing special from IQ perspective.



it would be difficult to do what you want and maintain it's size. It's nearly the smallest APS-C based MILC. and is if you consider it has a a 3:2 aspect ratio screen versus a smaller photographic 16:9 that most are using.

the only one as small as the M2 is the NEX-C3 and it is as stripped down as the M2 is.

if canon maintans the size as the primary importance - it probably will lack from the control wheel and evf aspect (perhaps gaining the G1xII's external) simply because there's really no room to put the stuff.

I'm hoping for something like the G7x body with the grip from the G1XII , the 70D sensor (7DII's would be swell) and a host of small annoying firmware fixes.


----------



## lw (Nov 19, 2014)

dilbert said:


> lw said:
> 
> 
> > The biggest criticism of the M has been AF performance in comparison to other mirrorless cameras that can rival conventional PDAF DSLRs.
> ...



You didn't seem to read the rest of my post.

The 70D and 7DMKII don't do that in live view, so why will the next M? Unless you are hopeful that Canon will release an even newer Dual Pixel sensor with more on-sensor PDAF capability. But not sure they would give an M a better sensor than their flagship APS-C camera...


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 20, 2014)

lw said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > lw said:
> ...



the 7D Mark II has far more tweaking available to it for PDAF settings, so it's obvious that canon is still actively augmenting it. it's not the same as the 70D.

From the 7D Mark II literature:

_New DAF features include user-selectable adjustments for Movie Servo AF Speed and Movie Servo AF Tracking Sensitivity. Additionally, overall focusing speed, face detection performance, and performance in low light and with low-contrast subjects have been improved over previous Canon models_

I would imagine DiGiC 6's increased performance has alot to do with it.

also I believe when ML was doing the EOS-M breakdown, they found out that the liveview framerate was cranked up more than the normal DSLR one (i recall one statement as such from them on that) - and canon even admitted that with the original EOS-M firmware version 2.0 they redid algorithms.

there's nothing stopping canon from cranking up the fps on liveview (which makes contrast detect work quicker) and also continually improving PDAF algorithms.


----------



## lw (Nov 20, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> Seems reasonable to me to assume that PDAF that is sensor based and found in more recent Canon DSLRs would also be found in any newer EOS-M - with perhaps even better algorithms behind it to deliver better AF than prior
> 
> the 7D Mark II has far more tweaking available to it for PDAF settings, so it's obvious that canon is still actively augmenting it. it's not the same as the 70D.
> 
> ...



They didn't do it for their flagship APS-C camera though, so again, why will they do it for a much cheaper M?
Seriously, the new M is going to be a mirrorless beater because it will have some movie AF tweets?
Hoping to be pleasantly surprised, but not expecting anything...


----------



## Woody (Nov 20, 2014)

lw said:


> Seriously, the new M is going to be a mirrorless beater because it will have some movie AF tweets?



In my books, even the old EOS-M beats out other competing MILCs because of
(a) price (b) 22 f/2 lens (c) wireless remote control (without resorting to the battery draining WiFi feature) (d) the flexibility to mount EOS lenses without significant loss in AF capability.

As for AF, unless MILCs can beat DSLRs in overall AF response (in terms of AF servo and as well as EVF related lag), they will always play a secondary role in my bag. For serious stuff, I can only rely on my DSLR. As such, it does not matter to me whether the AF in EOS-M can ever match that of other equivalent MILC products.

I owned and used an OME EM5 for a year before I sold all my m43 stuff.


----------



## privatebydesign (Nov 20, 2014)

Woody said:


> (c) wireless remote control (without resorting to the battery draining WiFi feature)



How do you do that?


----------



## dcm (Nov 20, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > (c) wireless remote control (without resorting to the battery draining WiFi feature)
> ...



RC-6 is supported on the M (wireless infrared)


----------



## privatebydesign (Nov 20, 2014)

dcm said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Woody said:
> ...



That's not really 'remote control' it is just a remote release. My understanding is the M has been remote control via USB crippled too.


----------



## dcm (Nov 20, 2014)

privatebydesign said:



> dcm said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



I didn't address the merits of it. RC does stand for remote control and infrared is wireless so the statement is valid. And I have used it on a few occasions since there is no other supported external method to trigger as you noted. 

I have used both USB and iPhone/wifi controls on my 6D; either would have been nice to have with the M. The EOS M2 did pick up the wifi controls so I assume any replacement will at least keep those.


----------



## privatebydesign (Nov 20, 2014)

dcm said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > dcm said:
> ...



Only if you buy into the Canon bullshit. Everybody knows the difference between a simple remote release, the RC-6, and actual 'remote control', as in having one iota of actual control.

I can use a 600EX-RT and or ST-E3-RT to trigger the shutter on the M too, and that is true radio, but that still doesn't give me remote control, which is what I was interested in.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 20, 2014)

lw said:


> They didn't do it for their flagship APS-C camera though, so again, why will they do it for a much cheaper M?
> Seriously, the new M is going to be a mirrorless beater because it will have some movie AF tweets?
> Hoping to be pleasantly surprised, but not expecting anything...


not sure what you are going on about. they did do algorithm enhancements for the 7D Mark II, and totally different tweaks and even a far more advanced liveview AF configuration screen that allows for more tweaking.

part of the M enhancements liveview breaks USB tethering from my understanding from reading the ML forums when they were first breaking out the M. so I doubt they would do all they could to the flagship APS-C.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 20, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> dcm said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



yes! .. the 1/8" inch rebel plug even would be awesome to have - I'd love to have a wired release on the M 

I can see not having room for the N3 plug, but the rebel would do nicely.


----------



## AvTvM (Nov 20, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> yes! .. the 1/8" inch rebel plug even would be awesome to have - I'd love to have a wired release on the M
> I can see not having room for the N3 plug, but the rebel would do nicely.



I don't care at all for wired remote release via weirdo proprietary Canon plugs and Canon-priced cables and dumb triggers. 

But I would have really liked Canon not to cripple USB TETHERING / Remote Control [remember, they had to put a sticker on the respective symbol already printed on the EOS-M box!] ... using Canon Utilies/Remote. 
And additional built-in WiFi would be even better. 

For remote release I use an RC-1 IR Trigger. It works on all Canon cameras I had and have. From Elan 7E to EOS-M. it is older, but slightly better than RC-6, since it has 2s and 10s delay option.


----------



## Khufu (Nov 20, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> But I would have really liked Canon not to cripple USB TETHERING / Remote Control [remember, they had to put a sticker on the respective symbol already printed on the EOS-M box!] ... using Canon Utilies/Remote.
> And additional built-in WiFi would be even better.



I'm pretty sure the only feature stickered-over on my (UK) EOS M box was the 3-10x Video Crop/Zoom that they removed from the review/pre-production models' firmware... are you sure yours had that printed?


----------



## AvTvM (Nov 21, 2014)

Khufu said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > But I would have really liked Canon not to cripple USB TETHERING / Remote Control [remember, they had to put a sticker on the respective symbol already printed on the EOS-M box!] ... using Canon Utilies/Remote.
> ...



Ooops .. Thanks for the correction ... You are right. 

Got mixed up for a moment with all the features canon decided to omit or cripple on the eos-m ...


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 24, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> Khufu said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



what ML was saying about the M and tethering was because they went with a higher framerate in liveview, that made it incompatible with canon's pc software for tethering.

however - the workaround would have been no liveview feed and usb tethered control.

that all being said, M2 supported wifi tethering - i doubt M3,etc if what ML is saying is accurate will support usb tethering.

for me anyways, all canon's from the beginning of time had some form of wired tether. that needs to be on the M - frankly it can be (and should be) the rebel plug. between eyefi and wifi tethering options, that's more than covered.

the only issue i have with wifi tethered is that there is no ASCOM ability with that.


----------



## mirrorless (Nov 24, 2014)

New Eos M should be announced quite soon (by rumors).. any updated news about it? Specs?


----------



## privatebydesign (Nov 24, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Khufu said:
> ...



EyeFi cards are a quaint joke for very many situations. THE WiFi solution, and I have tried them all, is the CamRanger and all it needs is the simple USB tether capability. The EOS-M would be the perfect remote camera, silent operation, lightweight so needs little in the way of support, excellent sensor etc etc, but we can't use it because of the crippled USB tethered support, even though the camera was fairly universally panned (though I like mine) having a very capable small remote that takes EF lenses would have opened up a different market segment for the much maligned M.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 24, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> EyeFi cards are a quaint joke for very many situations. THE WiFi solution, and I have tried them all, is the CamRanger and all it needs is the simple USB tether capability. The EOS-M would be the perfect remote camera, silent operation, lightweight so needs little in the way of support, excellent sensor etc etc, but we can't use it because of the crippled USB tethered support, even though the camera was fairly universally panned (though I like mine) having a very capable small remote that takes EF lenses would have opened up a different market segment for the much maligned M.



are you including M2's wifi - which it already had a year ago? USB support is for this class of camera far more limited - it would be nice. certainly not expecting it if ML was right in their assessment.

just to add - did you even read what you quoted?


----------



## e17paul (Dec 2, 2014)

*Is this coming in 2015?*

http://www.thephoblographer.com/2014/12/02/canon-might-introduce-first-likeable-eos-m-mirrorless-camera-2015/


----------



## Sporgon (Dec 2, 2014)

*Re: Is this coming in 2015?*

A whole new series of lenses for a FF EOS M ? How many thousands of people out there would want a FF 'M' as opposed to an APS-c ?

Seems unlikely to me, though those who keep referring to a 'flappy mirror' and who must have had some mirror do them grevious harm as a kid will probably be very excited about the rumour.


----------



## dgatwood (Dec 2, 2014)

*Re: Is this coming in 2015?*


You're assuming they'll release a full line of new lenses, but they really don't have to. After all, with a mirrorless body, there's nothing stopping you from using existing EF-M lenses. The camera electronics would simply have to recognize that the lens was designed for crop, and use only the center portion of the sensor. It's not like you have an optical viewfinder to worry about, or a mirror that would hit the back of the lens.


----------



## AcutancePhotography (Dec 2, 2014)

*Re: Is this coming in 2015?*

A small full frame mirrorless camera? That would be interesting.


----------



## Cory (Dec 2, 2014)

*Re: Is this coming in 2015?*

Pretty pleased with my M1, but wouldn't object to a 50mm M lens.


----------



## Marsu42 (Dec 2, 2014)

*Re: Is this coming in 2015?*



e17paul said:


> http://www.thephoblographer.com/2014/12/02/canon-might-introduce-first-likeable-eos-m-mirrorless-camera-2015/



You're quoting a link that quotes CR? Well, that's setting a new standard [CR-1] :->

However, I find the rumor believable. Canon cannot compete with its current sensor tech, though the 7d2 isn't much worse than Sony/Nikon aps-c. If they want to make a big splash in the $1000-$2000 market, it has to be ff - combined with their dual pixel af, all in one small package

As for lenses, I imagine their current ef-m lenses wouldn't fit on a mirrorless ff, so you either have to adapt ef lenses or they release a genuine ff-mirrorless lens lineup. As there aren't that much ef-m lenses around, imho the installed base won't block them from adding yet another mount.



Sporgon said:


> Seems unlikely to me, though those who keep referring to a 'flappy mirror' and who must have had some mirror do them grevious harm as a kid will probably be very excited about the rumour.



If the spec is 60-120fps ff quality, some people might think again how faster you can flip a mirror than on the current 7d2 or 1dx...


----------



## lintoni (Dec 2, 2014)

*Re: Is this coming in 2015?*



Marsu42 said:


> e17paul said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.thephoblographer.com/2014/12/02/canon-might-introduce-first-likeable-eos-m-mirrorless-camera-2015/
> ...



The link is actually to Canon _Watch_, thoug it is labelled Canon Rumors.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Dec 2, 2014)

*Re: Is this coming in 2015?*

The CR1 rumor was posted Nov 17 on CR. Its for a announcement in December, not 2015.

CR1 means its unconfirmed and unlikely to happen.

http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/11/a-real-eos-m-replacement-coming-soon-cr1/

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=f2a5a82c717c51aeb1a0ea9b7a9b9951&topic=23733.0


----------



## 1Zach1 (Dec 3, 2014)

I notice that B&H lists the M as Discontinued or No Longer Available (depending on the kit). Has it been this way for a while?


----------



## privatebydesign (Dec 5, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > EyeFi cards are a quaint joke for very many situations. THE WiFi solution, and I have tried them all, is the CamRanger and all it needs is the simple USB tether capability. The EOS-M would be the perfect remote camera, silent operation, lightweight so needs little in the way of support, excellent sensor etc etc, but we can't use it because of the crippled USB tethered support, even though the camera was fairly universally panned (though I like mine) having a very capable small remote that takes EF lenses would have opened up a different market segment for the much maligned M.
> ...



Have you compared EOS Remote WiFI control to remote use with a CamRanger? 

But it wasn't a comment on the M2's restricted capabilities, it was a comment on the M's completely castrated tethered capabilities.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Dec 5, 2014)

1Zach1 said:


> I notice that B&H lists the M as Discontinued or No Longer Available (depending on the kit). Has it been this way for a while?


 
For a long time. Canon is no longer selling them in the USA. Sales were beyond dismal. They do sell well in Asian countries where the small size and attractive price might be a big factor. The cameras now found in the USA are gray market imports. Repair might be a issue, if Canon USA does not carry a sufficient stock of parts. So far, I haven't heard of that issue.

I would have bought one during the big closeout sales if they had not left out tethering ability.


----------



## jrista (Dec 5, 2014)

I am fairly skeptical of a FF EOS-M part coming along any time soon. With Canon's tepid entrance into the market, jumping into it again with another new EF mount (which I think would be required, lenses would have to be designed differently to get the image circle projected large enough to fill a full frame, with minimal vignetting, with the same EF mount) just doesn't seem logical. Not at this stage in the game. I think Canon would need to see growth in APS-C sized EOS-M cameras in the western markets before they, in their conservative ways, move on to make a FF version of EOS-M.


Personally, I'd welcome a better APS-C mirrorless from Canon. APS-C sensors are still relatively large in the grand scheme of things. Overall, they are the third largest general sensor size used in ILC type cameras, second largest if you exclude MFD from the pool. If Canon can improve DPAF, make it super fast, make it track extremely well, work in very low light, maybe even give it some more configurability...along with improved frame rates, IQ, all the standard stuff...oh, and give it a DSLR-style body design P)...I think an APS-C EOS-M could be a success in western markets. 


I'd be willing to buy a DSLR-styled EOS-M if it had great AF performance and excellent IQ. Let's just say, at a minimum, it would need 7D II/6D level IQ (preferably Exmor/NX1 level IQ) and none of the frustrating CDAF/PDAF funky-hybridized slowness and hunting that seems to occur on current DPAF cameras (or even, for that matter, on Sony A7 series cameras...their AF is decent, but still not on the level of dedicated DSLR PDAF unit performance.)


----------



## Mitch.Conner (Dec 19, 2014)

This is looking increasingly unlikely by the hour.


----------



## AvTvM (Dec 20, 2014)

Mitch.Conner said:


> This is looking increasingly unlikely by the hour.



Why? It will lilely be announced in feb 2015.


----------



## privatebydesign (Dec 20, 2014)

I would bet a large amount of money that Canon will not release an interchangable lens FF mirrorless next year, or the year after.


----------



## jrista (Dec 20, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> Mitch.Conner said:
> 
> 
> > This is looking increasingly unlikely by the hour.
> ...




I doubt it. Not a FF mirrorless, anyway.


----------



## Mitch.Conner (Dec 20, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> Mitch.Conner said:
> 
> 
> > This is looking increasingly unlikely by the hour.
> ...



This rumor is that it will be announced this month (unless there's something I misread). Even if it was announced in February, that's not this month.


----------



## Mitch.Conner (Dec 20, 2014)

jrista said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Mitch.Conner said:
> ...



I don't see a full frame EOS-M coming until Canon has the crop version fully realized. They wouldn't risk another flop and have full frame bodies being sold on eBay for $300 a pop.


----------



## Khufu (Dec 21, 2014)

Is It not possible that "Canon has given word to various divisions around the globe that they will address the EOS M in December of this year" simply means that some bloke in Japan was intending to compose an internal email to some other execs around the planet along the lines of "hai guiz, thinkI might make a new camera next yeeear! Lol x"?

It's hardly clear on who they're addressing; the public, the need-to-know executives, distributors and warehouses so they can make better use of their big empty sheds marked 'M'...

I'd like me a Wifi M3 with EVF and that 3x video crop feature they thieved from my M1 though so, yeah, sort it out already!
Then again, the idea of that at the price they'll be charging, I'm obviously going to end up with an a7 series anyways


----------



## Rocky (Dec 21, 2014)

The Rumor may have some truth behind it. AT Amazon Japan, The EOS-M2 with 22/2.0 and the 16-55 zoom is at about US$465 and Canon gives almost US$60 rebate.
I doubt that Canon will be in the FF mirrorless market in the foreseeable future. It will be to much capital investment, ( all new lenses, "buying" pattern from other companies, etc ) even for Canon.


----------

