# White balance setting and RAW. Also flash sync speed.



## jdramirez (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm going to be taking many photos of girls basketball in the upcoming months using a 60D, 100mm f/2.8L IS USM, 50mm f/1.4, and maybe a 5dmkii and a 24-105mm f/4L IS if I can find a deal. There is blue padding along the walls of the gym that I plan on bouncing light from a 430ex ii out onto the court. So one of my question is... if I'm bouncing light which gives a definite blu-ish tint, do I have to adjust the white balance to combat that? I suppose I'm thinking that adjusting the white balance would only affect the .jpg image and not the raw image which I will later process in Lightroom. So am I full of crap? 

Also, the 9 year old girls don't move that fast, so there isn't a ton of motion blur with a shutter speed of 1/250 of a second, but I'd prefer 1/1000 so I can freeze the "action". And if I kick the iso up to 400, I think I can easily achieve 1/1000. But using flash, I think it prevents me from using shutter speeds faster than 1/250. I think I'm being redundant, but I can manually adjust in the settings so I can get a faster sync with the 430ex ii on the hotshoe of my 60D?

Thanks a ton...


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## Steven_urwin (Nov 15, 2012)

jdramirez said:


> I'm going to be taking many photos of girls basketball in the upcoming months using a 60D, 100mm f/2.8L IS USM, 50mm f/1.4, and maybe a 5dmkii and a 24-105mm f/4L IS if I can find a deal. There is blue padding along the walls of the gym that I plan on bouncing light from a 430ex ii out onto the court. So one of my question is... if I'm bouncing light which gives a definite blu-ish tint, do I have to adjust the white balance to combat that? I suppose I'm thinking that adjusting the white balance would only affect the .jpg image and not the raw image which I will later process in Lightroom. So am I full of crap?
> 
> Also, the 9 year old girls don't move that fast, so there isn't a ton of motion blur with a shutter speed of 1/250 of a second, but I'd prefer 1/1000 so I can freeze the "action". And if I kick the iso up to 400, I think I can easily achieve 1/1000. But using flash, I think it prevents me from using shutter speeds faster than 1/250. I think I'm being redundant, but I can manually adjust in the settings so I can get a faster sync with the 430ex ii on the hotshoe of my 60D?
> 
> Thanks a ton...



Hi Jdramirez,

You will pick up that blue-ish tint if you reflect your flash off it (known as colour cast). You can just correct this, very easily in post, but if set your white balance correctly, you will save yourself sometime by not having to do it in post. The other thing that I would be a little wary about is mixing you light colours. If you are shooting in a sports hall, the ambient light is likely to have that horrible yellow tint that all sports hall seem to have (from the fluorescent lights they use)... polluting this, with a blue cast could end up giving you a complete headache.
If you crank up the shutter speed, past 1/200th of a second, and open up the aperture, this will cut down the ambiently light, and bring out the added flash light. Also in doing this, you will be able to 'freeze the action' as you wanted.
With the 430exii, you have the option to turn on HSS. This is your High Sync Speed setting, allowing the camera and flash to sync above the 1/200th of a second. I'm not going to go into how that works, but it does... The trade off (there is always one) is that this results in a lower full power flash, and kills the batteries a little quicker. Action photographers often bank multiple flashes together to get more power in HSS and improve the recycle times of the flashes, so they can do multiple frames per second. Obviously this is reliant of owning more than one flash, and a way to trigger them all together. Que the 600EX-RT.
Please, anyone feel free to correct me if any of what I have said is wrong, I'm not a complete strobist guru...yet


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## bkorcel (Nov 15, 2012)

With the 430 and HSS you should be able to bounce off the gym roof instead of the walls. Obviously it will require more output and so your recycle time will take longer and your batteries will not last as long. However when I shot basketball years ago you dont use drive mode too much...more about waiting for the shot and taking one.

I would avoid bouncing off the blue mats. That's going to be a major headache and with the LPS or FL lighting it would go to deep yellow or orange if you corrected to remove the blue cast.



jdramirez said:


> I'm going to be taking many photos of girls basketball in the upcoming months using a 60D, 100mm f/2.8L IS USM, 50mm f/1.4, and maybe a 5dmkii and a 24-105mm f/4L IS if I can find a deal. There is blue padding along the walls of the gym that I plan on bouncing light from a 430ex ii out onto the court. So one of my question is... if I'm bouncing light which gives a definite blu-ish tint, do I have to adjust the white balance to combat that? I suppose I'm thinking that adjusting the white balance would only affect the .jpg image and not the raw image which I will later process in Lightroom. So am I full of crap?
> 
> Also, the 9 year old girls don't move that fast, so there isn't a ton of motion blur with a shutter speed of 1/250 of a second, but I'd prefer 1/1000 so I can freeze the "action". And if I kick the iso up to 400, I think I can easily achieve 1/1000. But using flash, I think it prevents me from using shutter speeds faster than 1/250. I think I'm being redundant, but I can manually adjust in the settings so I can get a faster sync with the 430ex ii on the hotshoe of my 60D?
> 
> Thanks a ton...


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## Dylan777 (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm not an expert in flash, no advice on flash. 

I did owned both 60D & 5D II in the past, none of these cameras will do well with fast or sport shooting.

7D or 5D III + 135L would be my choice - without flash.


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## jdramirez (Nov 16, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> I'm not an expert in flash, no advice on flash.
> 
> I did owned both 60D & 5D II in the past, none of these cameras will do well with fast or sport shooting.
> 
> 7D or 5D III + 135L would be my choice - without flash.



Why do people love their 7D so much? It does have a faster shots per second and micro auto focus adjustment... and outside of that I really don't know that I would want an upgrade to the 7D. And for everyone who says they love the 7D and the focal points and the auto focus... I hear the same amount of people saying it is wonky and doesn't always work right. 

And if I'm using flash... it doesn't matter what my frames per second are. I can only take one photo every few seconds. So I have to make the first one work.

As for the 135... I will not complain about the lens at all, save for the fact that I don't have one yet. I'm looking at getting one around Christmas, but I have to wait and see and hope and pray. Having said that, I think the 100mm gets me a little too close to the action. Another 35mm x 1.6 conversion factor doesn't seem like it would help me that much. But I definitely wouldn't mind that extra stop of light and shallower depth of field.

As for the 5d mkiii. Yeah... duh. But obviously I don't have the scratch right now to buy it. There aren't enough pennies underneath my couch cushions to swing that deal.


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## jdramirez (Nov 16, 2012)

bkorcel said:


> With the 430 and HSS you should be able to bounce off the gym roof instead of the walls. Obviously it will require more output and so your recycle time will take longer and your batteries will not last as long. However when I shot basketball years ago you dont use drive mode too much...more about waiting for the shot and taking one.
> 
> I would avoid bouncing off the blue mats. That's going to be a major headache and with the LPS or FL lighting it would go to deep yellow or orange if you corrected to remove the blue cast.



I need to learn how to use HSS. I know I have cycled through that feature, but I haven't used it. I have had the flash for only three months... so I have some excuse...?

The ceiling of the gym is about 30 feet high... which seems like an awful distance to bounce light. The good news is that it is painted white. I was thinking about putting an opaque white plastic bag over the head of the flash and using that as a diffuser. Real classy, I know. I'll give that a try the next time I go and hit up practice... though I have to find just the right bag... not too opaque.... not too flimsy.

As for the batteries, I can switch out a set at half time... I have rechargeable ones... and while they aren't the sanyo eneloops... they do the trick.

Ditto on the drive. I took some shots without flash and at f/2.8 I wasn't getting the shot I want. So it will be one shot per. I look forward to that though. It takes more skill than spray and pray. Though it is a Catholic school... so if there is a time to pray.

I appreciate the help guys.


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## jdramirez (Nov 18, 2012)

So I spent the day learning about high sync shutter and it is really cool. I know I will easily be able to shoot at 1/2000th of a second using the 430ex ii and my 60d, but I'm not 100% sure what I will do with the bouncing of the light. I think what I am going to do is make a home made diffuser to mount over the speedlight so I have the light, but it is not as powerful. 

Fingers crossed.


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## rpt (Nov 18, 2012)

jdramirez said:


> So I spent the day learning about high sync shutter and it is really cool. I know I will easily be able to shoot at 1/2000th of a second using the 430ex ii and my 60d, but I'm not 100% sure what I will do with the bouncing of the light. I think what I am going to do is make a home made diffuser to mount over the speedlight so I have the light, but it is not as powerful.
> 
> Fingers crossed.


Home made diffuser? Simple! A translucent white plastic bag and a rubber-band! That it! And the best part is that your diffuser height and even the shape is variable


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## Marsu42 (Nov 18, 2012)

jdramirez said:


> So I spent the day learning about high sync shutter and it is really cool. I know I will easily be able to shoot at 1/2000th of a second using the 430ex ii and my 60d, but I'm not 100% sure what I will do with the bouncing of the light. I think what I am going to do is make a home made diffuser to mount over the speedlight so I have the light, but it is not as powerful.



I found that the hss+430ex2 is not powerful enough to do large bounces or mount a diffusor with the object not near the camera, and if it is and somehow manages the flash power is drained in one shot and it needs a lot of time to recycle. But feel free to try and tell me otherwise


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## sanj (Nov 18, 2012)

I would attempt to put an appropriate orange gel on the flash to correct the blue and not leave this for post. Or, take a largish piece of white cardboard and blue tack it on the wall and bounce the flash off it. 
If u leave it for post and correct the blue tint then the ambient light will take a beating. 
Please check again, maybe your camera/flash will sync to higher shutter speeds, my 5d3/older flash does. You need to set correct settings in the flash. And yes faster shutter speed is a good idea. Pump up the iso if need be as much as required but you must freeze.
Wish you a great shoot.


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## Pyrenees (Nov 18, 2012)

I would try to avoid, if at all possible, reflecting off anything that isn't in the realm of a neutral color, let alone blue. It has the potential to be very difficult to correct, as eluded to above.

The suggestion above to stick a white paper/board and reflect off that seems like a good idea. Or, if you have one, place a white reflector (triangle or circular) against the wall. There is also the option of using the built-in reflector card (if your flash has it), although, I suspect this will be the least effective option.

Good luck with the shoot.


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## risc32 (Nov 18, 2012)

don't even think of bouncing off a gym ceiling with a shoe mounted flash. that's just not going to do anything but drain your batteries. and,,.. i gotta go my 3yr old needs me, i'll check back in a bit to see if you got any good advise...


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## Enthusiast (Nov 18, 2012)

Hi Jdramirez,
The HSS is no the right answer to your problem! HSS is using the flash as a lamp, glowing 1/200s to keep the light on as long as the shutter is running. (Shutter sync speed). To prevent the flash to be demaged, the Hss flash is 4 times weaker than the normal one. HSS is only made to fill shadows while shooting portrait outside in the sun with wide open aperture and high shutter speed.
The normal flash is just 1/800s so the flash is delivering you the freeze and the higher power you need in a gym. 
To keep the white balance under control, I would use a lee filter in front of the flash. These filters are realy cheap. You can buy a sample package from Lee with 100 different colors for 15$. 
How to make it work: 
1.Take your camera and make some shots in the gym with automatic WB. 
2. Look with the info page on the WB. 
3. Chose a filter for the flash with the same K and stick them in front of the flash.
4. Fix the WB manually to the same value.
5. Use Av mode and correct -2EV and flash correction to 0EV: the flash is than 75% and the room light is 25% of total that gives you a good freeze and non overflashed look. If you struggle with to short shutter speed, switch tomanual mode and 1/250s the E-TTL will put the right flash in.

Advantages:
Only one color of light - easy to adjust in the post
Enough flash power
If the flash is not using ful power, shorter repeat time

Same strategy also works for parties with a 3200k filter in front of a flash and normal lights. You can handhold and freeze with 300mm easily. 

Would be nice to get a feedback if this works for you.

Enthusiast


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## Marsu42 (Nov 18, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> the Hss flash is 4 times weaker than the normal one.



Just curious: Where do you get the "4 times" number from?

And I suppose it's 4 times of the max. flash output, and you really only need that with diffusors or bouncing from the moon - imho esp. with a larger flash like the 580ex-types hss works quite well for most purposes, the real downside is that it cannot freeze motion which is an issue because the x-sync speeds of Canon are so slow,


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 18, 2012)

The standard sync speed for a flash will probably work well for what you describe as slow moving subjects. Don't make things more difficult than they need be. I'd try several different methods, thats how you learn.
I'd think, however, that bouncing flash off the blue mats will result in a mixed color, which is difficult or impossible to totally correct without extreme editing.
I'd also be wary of the lights in the gymn. Often the lights they use flicker at the line frequency, or they cause color issues. This means you will need the full power from your flash to overcome this.
The only way to tell is to try different things and see what works best for you. Things that work best for others may not work for you due to the different lighting in your gymn.
BTW, use manual or TV, don't play with AV in your situation. The 5D MK II will be fine, just use the center point. You are not going to use the AF points to track movement anyway.


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## jdramirez (Nov 19, 2012)

rpt said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > So I spent the day learning about high sync shutter and it is really cool. I know I will easily be able to shoot at 1/2000th of a second using the 430ex ii and my 60d, but I'm not 100% sure what I will do with the bouncing of the light. I think what I am going to do is make a home made diffuser to mount over the speedlight so I have the light, but it is not as powerful.
> ...



What I have right now is a plastic water bottle with the top cut off, then I have it fitted around the top of my flash. It looks SUPER classy, but then I'm going to put in "ribbons" of translucent white filler paper. The kind you would put in a gift. And that should glow evenly and give the desired effect of sending a soft white light in multiple directions, while at the same time, not absorbing all the light to the point to where it is not even worth using flash. That's my plan in the mean time.

But I did think about a plastic bag too... but I figure that would look even worse.


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## jdramirez (Nov 19, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > So I spent the day learning about high sync shutter and it is really cool. I know I will easily be able to shoot at 1/2000th of a second using the 430ex ii and my 60d, but I'm not 100% sure what I will do with the bouncing of the light. I think what I am going to do is make a home made diffuser to mount over the speedlight so I have the light, but it is not as powerful.
> ...



I really don't think I'm going to be able to bounce it from the 30 to maybe even 40 ft ceiling. So that's why I'm making this diffuser. I'm going to shoot at f/2.8, kick the iso up to 400 or maybe 800 to increase the shutter speed to over 1/1000... maybe even 1/2000 of a second. 

As for recycle time... I'm not sure it will take THAT LONG. I won't get shot after shot after shot like I do in football, but I think I should be able to get a recycle time of less than 3 seconds. I think that is reasonable.


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## jdramirez (Nov 19, 2012)

sanj said:


> I would attempt to put an appropriate orange gel on the flash to correct the blue and not leave this for post. Or, take a largish piece of white cardboard and blue tack it on the wall and bounce the flash off it.
> If u leave it for post and correct the blue tint then the ambient light will take a beating.
> Please check again, maybe your camera/flash will sync to higher shutter speeds, my 5d3/older flash does. You need to set correct settings in the flash. And yes faster shutter speed is a good idea. Pump up the iso if need be as much as required but you must freeze.
> Wish you a great shoot.



Honestly... when I was bouncing the light off of either the floor or the blue mat, I didn't see a horrible tinge. I think that is because the blue mat is that shy reflective substance... so it was reflecting a great deal of white light out onto the court. I realize that it would be awful if I were more of a matte finish and it was casting blue out onto the court... but I was pleasantly surprised. 

As for high speed sync... I was able to get 1/1000 of a second HSS just messing with it at home. I don't think it will be a problem.


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## jdramirez (Nov 19, 2012)

I appreciate your response, but I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Per what I was listening to yesterday, the flash normally goes off for 1/50000 of a second. And so what the flash does is it strobes at multiple intervals throughout the shutter so the top of the sensor receives a consistent amount of light as the rest of the shot. So it strobes 20 times over 1/1000 of a second which is pretty cool. 

As for being weaker... I'm not sure, but it seemed equally as blinding as the normal flash. 

And I don't think HSS is for difficult lighting... I think 2nd curtain is more applicable for long exposure with flash at the end of the shot. Though I'm willing to listen if you can further elaborate. 

The HSS is no the right answer to your problem! HSS is using the flash as a lamp, glowing 1/200s to keep the light on as long as the shutter is running. (Shutter sync speed). To prevent the flash to be demaged, the Hss flash is 4 times weaker than the normal one. HSS is only made to fill shadows while shooting portrait outside in the sun with wide open aperture and high shutter speed.
The normal flash is just 1/800s so the flash is delivering you the freeze and the higher power you need in a gym. 
To keep the white balance under control, I would use a lee filter in front of the flash. These filters are realy cheap. You can buy a sample package from Lee with 100 different colors for 15$. 
How to make it work: 
1.Take your camera and make some shots in the gym with automatic WB. 
2. Look with the info page on the WB. 
3. Chose a filter for the flash with the same K and stick them in front of the flash.
4. Fix the WB manually to the same value.
5. Use Av mode and correct -2EV and flash correction to 0EV: the flash is than 75% and the room light is 25% of total that gives you a good freeze and non overflashed look. If you struggle with to short shutter speed, switch tomanual mode and 1/250s the E-TTL will put the right flash in.

Advantages:
Only one color of light - easy to adjust in the post
Enough flash power
If the flash is not using ful power, shorter repeat time

Same strategy also works for parties with a 3200k filter in front of a flash and normal lights. You can handhold and freeze with 300mm easily. 

Would be nice to get a feedback if this works for you.

Enthusiast
[/quote]


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## rpt (Nov 19, 2012)

jdramirez said:


> rpt said:
> 
> 
> > jdramirez said:
> ...


For your shooting distance you would probably need to have some reflective material on the bottle where it is not facing the shot. You don't want to waste the light going out from there... That is where the plastic bag fails. It is fine for closer home shots. And you will need to dial up the flash exposure compensation too...


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## jdramirez (Nov 19, 2012)

rpt said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > rpt said:
> ...



So tin foil? facing the rear (towards me) so that light will bounce forward as well.


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## rpt (Nov 19, 2012)

jdramirez said:


> rpt said:
> 
> 
> > jdramirez said:
> ...


Something like that. Or aluminium foil we get to wrap food...


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## jdramirez (Nov 19, 2012)

rpt said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > rpt said:
> ...



That must be my Texas roots coming out. I'm nt sure why we call aluminum foil tin foil... but we do.


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## EOBeav (Nov 19, 2012)

Wow; lots of different approaches to this. Trying to bounce light to shoot a basketball game (even a slower moving one) just seems like a lot of extra unnecessary work to me. Plus, won't that give you some shadows that you don't want? 

Instead, would it be possible to get a hold of a longer, faster lens for something like this? I'm renting a 135mm f/2 for a couple of basketball games in a few weeks, and I'm looking forward to seeing what that can do on my 5DmkII.


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## The_Arsonist (Nov 19, 2012)

Bouncing flash to light a gym probably isn't going to work out well with a speed light. Maybe a studio strobe/monoblock would work, but I'd suggest taking a look at this article on Strobist on using speed lights as direct light.

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/04/on-assignment-prep-basketball.html

That said, I get decent results with available light from my 50D and a 70-200. I shoot at f/2.8, ISO 2500, and shutter at 1/400s. I would recommend shooting 5-10 minutes with available light in case your flash experiments don't turn out the way you want. And I shoot RAW, as post-processing is really what makes the photos turn out (noise reduction, tweaking sharpness and exposure)


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## Quasimodo (Nov 19, 2012)

Not to butt in, since I am not knowledge enough to give you advice on your problem. However, I see a lot of folks here who cares about and knows a great deal about flashes. I have I question: Do you have a tip for a good softbox that works with my 430EX ii, 580EX ii, and 600EX RT? The way I intend to use it most, is to place the flash and softbox on a monopod to get portaits outside, so the softbox must not be so big that a person cannot hold it for a resonably timespan. 

Thanks,

G.


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## rpt (Nov 19, 2012)

jdramirez said:


> Snip!
> 
> That must be my Texas roots coming out. I'm nt sure why we call aluminum foil tin foil... but we do.


  yes, some things stick... Btw, when you get done could you share the photo of your DIY diffuser?


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## Marsu42 (Nov 19, 2012)

Quasimodo said:


> I have I question: Do you have a tip for a good softbox that works with my 430EX ii, 580EX ii, and 600EX RT? The way I intend to use it most, is to place the flash and softbox on a monopod to get portaits outside, so the softbox must not be so big that a person cannot hold it for a resonably timespan.



What's wrong with the vanilla commercial softboxes? Look @amazon, their weight is between 500-1500g (depending on size). Your only problem might be that they consume much flash power so the 430ex2 could be underpowered for daylight outdoor shots.


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## Quasimodo (Nov 19, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Quasimodo said:
> 
> 
> > I have I question: Do you have a tip for a good softbox that works with my 430EX ii, 580EX ii, and 600EX RT? The way I intend to use it most, is to place the flash and softbox on a monopod to get portaits outside, so the softbox must not be so big that a person cannot hold it for a resonably timespan.
> ...



Good tip on the 430 being to weak for daylight shots. 
Nothing wrong with the vanilla ones  but I wanted to be sure to buy one which is good and can be used with all three separate flashes. Nice if it is not too expensive too. I looked at one from Cowboy studio (after looking at another thread here) and it was in many ways a fit, however it seemed cumberstone to mount when outside.. I was thinking about the Ezybox by Lastolite, but in Norway it is quite stiff in price.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 19, 2012)

Quasimodo said:


> I was thinking about the Ezybox by Lastolite, but in Norway it is quite stiff in price.



I have a pair of the 24" Ezyboxes, they're quite sturdy and easy to set up. I expect the quality of light is no different from the cheap ones, but the build quality and durability of the Lastolites are very good.


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## Quasimodo (Nov 19, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Quasimodo said:
> 
> 
> > I was thinking about the Ezybox by Lastolite, but in Norway it is quite stiff in price.
> ...



Thanks Neuro. I also went to their website and looked at an instructional video, and it seems quick to set up. The one I found in England (ebay) is 54cm, so a little bit smaller than yours? but by the looks of it a great size for outdoor portrait. For indoor I have umbrellas. 

Have you also tested the grid that you can buy as an accessorie?

G.


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## jdramirez (Dec 16, 2012)

For what it's worth, I managed to make a flash diffuser and I'm pretty pleased with the results. At an ISO of 800, and an aperture of f/2.5 on my 50mm f/1.4, I'm getting shutterspeeds of 1/1600 of a second. 

Here's what sucks... I cannot get any solid shots My 100mm and 50mm lenses are better in lower light, but are too "close" to take full body shots of action, but my 24-105 requires way too much iso and a reduction in shutterspeed. It's a freaking challenge.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 16, 2012)

Quasimodo said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > I have a pair of the 24" Ezyboxes, they're quite sturdy and easy to set up. I expect the quality of light is no different from the cheap ones, but the build quality and durability of the Lastolites are very good.
> ...



I haven't tried the grid for the Ezybox, although I have one for my 48" octabox and it delivers very nice results when you want to control spill.


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## Quasimodo (Dec 16, 2012)




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## bycostello (Dec 17, 2012)

a well lit gym, you won't need flash


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## davidbellissima (Dec 17, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Quasimodo said:
> 
> 
> > I was thinking about the Ezybox by Lastolite, but in Norway it is quite stiff in price.
> ...



I think I disagree. I purchased a 54cm Ezybox and the build quality is very poor. I returned it for a full refund after the first use. The speedring and and all the other bits are made of plastic. The speedring was such a loose fit into the softbox that it kept falling off all on its own. Pretty embarrassing on a wedding shoot when the wind is blowing and you assistant has to run after the softbox as it falls off and rolls across the grass, and collect it multiple times. I was very disappointed. They told me mine is faulty but I don't really see how that is possible as the speedring is just way too small for the softbox and some friends have experienced the same thing so I wouldn't recommend that brand based on my personal experience. 

So instead, I went onto Ebay and purchased a much cheaper and almost identical version of the Ezybox (same size and double diffusion layers). 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160589932118&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:GB:3160

It only costs £37 and for once, the cheaper Ebay special version is MUCH better build quality. The fittings are all metal and the speedring fits very snugly into the softbox. Way better that my copy of the Ezybox and I would highly recommend this as a very cheap, high quality softbox for OCF work.

Back to flashguns... The moment HSS kicks in you lose around 1-2 stops of power. Another very important consideration is that when in HSS, shutter speed also affects your flash exposure. This means when you're up at 1/2000th or 1/4000th of a second, you speedlight must be very close to your subject as the maximum output power is minimal. Forget bouncing light in HSS. 

As for bouncing light, if you are in a large venue (within reason) remember you can pump up your ISO to help ease the workload on your flash, or to get more range with the flash at full power. Zooming the flash head to its maximum will further improve range but just remember the angle of incidence equals angle of reflection, so aim your flashgun at the right spot so that the bounced light falls where you want it to.


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## jdramirez (Dec 19, 2012)

bycostello said:


> a well lit gym, you won't need flash



Is there such a thing? A well lit gym just seems like an oxymoron.


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## bdunbar79 (Dec 19, 2012)

Get the 5D Mark II and you won't need a flash. My personal opinion is that using flash during sports is rude. I'm a professional sports photog and I never use flash. I played sports in high school and college, and if someone had fired a flash while I was playing and I saw it, the camera would have been busted into a thousand pieces on the floor. Besides, I haven't ever shot in a venue where flash was even allowed. 

Get the 5D Mark II, try 1/500s, f/2.8, ISO 5000, works well in most gyms. If the gym is a bit better lit, try 1/500s, f/2.8, ISO 3200, and then if you need to, brighten a bit in post. If you use your 50 f/1.4, shoot at f/2 or f/2.2 and have the ISO as low as possible, such that you are about +2/3 to +1. If you're just going to the web directly, just overexpose by +2/3 and it's good enough. 

Your big problem will be noise with the 60D. The 60D and 7D are great for outdoor sports, but very poor performers in gyms and if you travel to other venues, they will likely not allow flash (and shouldn't).

I am not trying to be rude at all, I am just trying to help you in the future, so that you can expand your sports shooting because there aren't many out there doing it, and it's nice to see somone beginning!


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## jdramirez (Dec 29, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> Get the 5D Mark II and you won't need a flash. My personal opinion is that using flash during sports is rude. I'm a professional sports photog and I never use flash. I played sports in high school and college, and if someone had fired a flash while I was playing and I saw it, the camera would have been busted into a thousand pieces on the floor. Besides, I haven't ever shot in a venue where flash was even allowed.
> 
> Get the 5D Mark II, try 1/500s, f/2.8, ISO 5000, works well in most gyms. If the gym is a bit better lit, try 1/500s, f/2.8, ISO 3200, and then if you need to, brighten a bit in post. If you use your 50 f/1.4, shoot at f/2 or f/2.2 and have the ISO as low as possible, such that you are about +2/3 to +1. If you're just going to the web directly, just overexpose by +2/3 and it's good enough.
> 
> ...



I'm in the market for a 5d mkiii. I was seriously going to take the plunge on a mkii, but I've heard so many negative things about the AF system that I just couldn't bring myself to do it. 

First things first... I generally don't like to use flash, but the gym isn't well lit. It is virtually dark even with an aperture wide open and the iso kicked up to 6400... 1/2 second exposures won't do me much good because even though we are talking about slowish 9 year olds... they don't stand perfectly still.

And if you saw a flash and smashed their camera, I am 100% confident your coach would have sat you on the bench, suspended you off the team, and your parents would make you flip burgers until you were able to make sufficient recompense. So back off the crazy train a little bit. 

As for being allowed... we are talking elementary school... so there isn't a hard and fast set of rules that we are expected to adhere to. 

As for what I'm going to do... I'm not all that pleased with the results so far. I wind up being in a position where the girls are shooting with their back to the camera and that doesn't equate to very good photos. And they aren't athletic enough to elevate over the girls in the foreground... so I am really at a loss for where to position myself. I'd like to be out of bounds underneath the basket, but the gym doesn't really accommodate the space to do so. It's really quite perplexing... with flash or without flash.


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## risc32 (Dec 29, 2012)

From my exp, nearly every gym is pretty dark. I shot tens of thousands of frames a few years ago in a gym with a 30d- at 3200, 100mmf2- af f2, and i don't hold me to it, but i think i was in the area of 1/500, or a bit slower. Technically they would now be considered a mess, but at the time they were pretty good, and a far cry from what the people in the stands could do with point and shoots. 
Like most things, it all depends on what you are required/want to do, and how much you have to spend. Good looking high iso cameras are fantastic, but if you can use a flash of some sort, it'll be even better. For basketball, i would look into 1 or 2 alienbees monolights, battery packs, triggers, and some sort of clamping system or maybe stands. just be very careful with you're placement, and i don't mean just for lighting. you really don't want anyone getting hurt due to your equipment. 
On second thought, what you really need to do is buy a large speedotron pack with whatever heads you need to get you to the flash duration you want. Then you just need a scissor at the gym to lift it all up in the rafters, with everything triggered wirelessly. just like they do at NBA games! just make sure EVERYTHING, is VERY well secured. if a "head" was to land on someone, it would be a trip to the hospital at least, a falling powerpack would render someone dead on the spot. (powerpack = a large car battery)


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## jdramirez (Jan 7, 2013)

So yesterday I opted to use no flash. I was surprised at the relative quality of the shots I got. Yes they were grainy at 1250 iso, but useable. And I was able to use the spray and pray technique... So I'm not sure how I want to proceed.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 7, 2013)

bdunbar79 said:


> if someone had fired a flash while I was playing and I saw it, the camera would have been busted into a thousand pieces on the floor.



Sounds like a high-testosterone sport - professional wrestling, ice hockey, american football :-> ? But that's probably also the game-winning attitude for photojournalism when fighting through a crowd of fellow photogs...


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