# Getting a little bit Fed Up...



## hhelmbold (Aug 22, 2011)

Is it just me or does it feel like Canon is dragging their heels in getting back as the market leader in the Pro SLR market? Maybe I should wait till September to point fingers, but I am really getting disillusioned with Canon. I am doing a lot of pro golf events for magazines and studio work. After a lot of saving and hard work I got enough money together in December last year to move to the 1Ds range and I knew buying one then would be a mistake - so I waited. There were times I thought I should just get a 1D, but there's no stock... So I am still waiting.

Now reading things like "However, weâ€™re told Canon is more interested in getting production up to 100% before announcing new EOS products" is not really the type of news I want to read...

Am I the only one who feels this way? Is Nikon the new leader? (I know swearing is not allowed - but hey, sometimes you need to get things of your chest) 

Maybe I just need some feedback from fellow Canon users before I decide to switch to the yellow brand...


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## EYEONE (Aug 22, 2011)

I feel like it's December 24th and people and giving up on Christmas and declaring that it will never come.

I understand the frustration. Especially people waiting for the 1Ds Mark IV. But, it's coming guys. It's coming. And it's soon. Heck, I'm not even shopping for a pro camera this year and I can't wait for the announcement. But I have to remember everything Canon, Nikon, and Japan have been through this year.


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## YoukY63 (Aug 22, 2011)

hhelmbold said:


> Maybe I just need some feedback from fellow Canon users before I decide to switch to the yellow brand...


Are you interested in a D3x?
Because, I agree with Canon taking huge time to announce new professional DSLR, but that is also true for Nikon and Sony. And today, the situation is just exactly the same than last year. Canon was and still is leader.

So now we just have to be patient, until one of these major companies decides to make a move. The other ones will follow within weeks.


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## UncleFester (Aug 22, 2011)

A 1Ds for golf? What lens are you using?


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## hhelmbold (Aug 22, 2011)

@EYEONE - The ironic thing is that part of this whole "upgrade" is that it was also a Christmas gift to me last year  So yes it is feeling like Christmas never came LOL.

@YoukY63 - A D3x?? You must be kidding, it will be unfair to look at anything but a D4  I want to see what the whole Nikon launch on the 24th is about. Joe Mcnally was involved with the D3 launch and maybe he is again on the 24th...

I think my overall confidence in Canon has just taken a knock... I am in South Africa and the Canon support here is terrible... well... actually more like "Doesn't exist". I usually take my gear to the US to have it serviced etc and therethe support is FANTASTIC. In South Africa Canon is just a name on a building - inside the building it is a lot of 3rd party companies operating under that name. But my blood is still red and I just cannot go away from Canon.

@UncleFester - I have several bodies and depends on what I am shooting. Golf is 50% of my income and Studio work the other 50%. I want to go 1Ds for studio work. I don't have a 1Ds at the moment and use a 1D mkIII or 5D mkI for golf. Lenses depends on what I shoot, it can range from 18mm to 400mm or even sometimes longer with a 1.4x converter.

I suppose I just wanted to know that I wasn't the only one who can't wait for Christmas!


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## aj1575 (Aug 22, 2011)

Cool down. We all are always waiting for something new and better. But it always takes some time for something new to appear.
I think there are two things to keep in mind with this topic.

First: It does not really matter if you work with brand X or brand Y. The difference is not so big. And you can be sure, that if you do switch, the brand you left, will come up with something newer and better, than the one you switched to. This is partly due to Murphy, partly because the grass is always greener on the other side, and partly, because this is the way technological development works; no one stayes ahead forever.

Second: If you work as a pro, none of your competitors can buy better equipment. They all go to the same companies, and work with the same tools. And even more imporant, you customer does not care about your equipment, he only care about the pictures you are taking.


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## koolman (Aug 22, 2011)

hhelmbold said:


> Is it just me or does it feel like Canon is dragging their heels in getting back as the market leader in the Pro SLR market? Maybe I should wait till September to point fingers, but I am really getting disillusioned with Canon. I am doing a lot of pro golf events for magazines and studio work. After a lot of saving and hard work I got enough money together in December last year to move to the 1Ds range and I knew buying one then would be a mistake - so I waited. There were times I thought I should just get a 1D, but there's no stock... So I am still waiting.
> 
> Now reading things like "However, weâ€™re told Canon is more interested in getting production up to 100% before announcing new EOS products" is not really the type of news I want to read...
> 
> ...



Nikon waited a long time before coming out with the D7000 - as it seems to be a real leap foward.

Canon is probably cooking its response - as the D7000 took the market away from the 60d and 7d.

Lets see what they pull out - as things are now - all the sites recommend the D7000 over canon products.


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## Flake (Aug 22, 2011)

I sometimes read posts like this & slowly shake my head. Have you not heard of the Japanese earthquake which devastated parts of Japan? Canons facilities were damaged in this and as a corporate policy it is their decision not to announce a new body until they have production facilities to actually deliver it.

(It does beg the question as to the state of Canons current production facilities, especially as the EOS body plant is miles away from the earthquake zone)

From the start Nikon has had a different corporate policy, which was to announce new lenses, and bodies, without neccessarily having the production volume to satisfy demand.

So which way would you rather have it? Announcement of a camera which you cannot get your hands on, or a company which says we're not going to announce the camera until we can ship it? With either policy you don't get your hands on a new camera.

As for Nikon stealing a lead on Canon, how is this? The cameras they have are still the same, the D3 & the D3x and the D700, in my opinion none of them can beat the image quality of the 5D MkII which is still probably the best DSLR available for outright image quality.

You say that you would like a 1D but there's no stock - doesn't that just illustrate the points I made above, that Canon are still having production problems?


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## Flake (Aug 22, 2011)

koolman said:


> hhelmbold said:
> 
> 
> > Is it just me or does it feel like Canon is dragging their heels in getting back as the market leader in the Pro SLR market? Maybe I should wait till September to point fingers, but I am really getting disillusioned with Canon. I am doing a lot of pro golf events for magazines and studio work. After a lot of saving and hard work I got enough money together in December last year to move to the 1Ds range and I knew buying one then would be a mistake - so I waited. There were times I thought I should just get a 1D, but there's no stock... So I am still waiting.
> ...



Not very long ago I posted a thread on biased reviewing with the D7000, and the number of problems users were having with the camera, which seems to have a number of faults, the focus and image sharpness, which will not reach commercial standards. This is not to say that all models are faulty, but with so many reports it should certainly be taken seriously. Buying one at the moment is like a lucky dip!


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## pedro (Aug 22, 2011)

Flake said:


> I sometimes read posts like this & slowly shake my head. Have you not heard of the Japanese earthquake which devastated parts of Japan? Canons facilities were damaged in this and as a corporate policy it is their decision not to announce a new body until they have production facilities to actually deliver it.



@Flake: You are absolutely right. +1 then. And there is another component, western-biased thinking often ignores about communication: japanese culture is shame-based. That means, if someone makes an announcement and cannot fulfill it, they put themselves to shame, or as we say: they're loosing face. So, with all my own expectations about a 5Diii and with all my own wanting it to be announced: I do not want, that anyone of the japanese folk at Canon has to loose face due to us westerners who are eager to burn their money by purchasing a new body. So according to other comments and refering to a north american folk song: it will be coming 'round the mountain, when it comes 8) Cheers from Switzerland, Pedro


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## hhelmbold (Aug 22, 2011)

> I sometimes read posts like this & slowly shake my head. Have you not heard of the Japanese earthquake which devastated parts of Japan? Canons facilities were damaged in this and as a corporate policy it is their decision not to announce a new body until they have production facilities to actually deliver it.
> 
> It does beg the question as to the state of Canons current production facilities, especially as the EOS body plant is miles away from the earthquake zone



I fully understand this and Canon made announcements on their websites saying that their facilities are fully operational again, but the problem is that there are massive power restrictions put in place and Canon is fully complying with these restrictions.

I also understand what is said about Japanese culture, but you asked


> Announcement of a camera which you cannot get your hands on, or a company which says we're not going to announce the camera until we can ship it?


I want neither 

Don't you think a company that is bold enough to step forward and say "We are working on a camera that will blow our competitors out of the water, with a dynamic range like never before... etc etc" - is better than a rumor page where everything is a guess. I don't expect them to say it will be a camera with features A, B and C and it will be available on XX Date.

I am just wondering how much of this cloak and dagger stuff is real between competitors and how much is from watching too many spy movies


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## hhelmbold (Aug 22, 2011)

> You say that you would like a 1D but there's no stock - doesn't that just illustrate the points I made above, that Canon are still having production problems?



Actually I don't want the 1D - I want something better 

I was very much in 2 minds between the 1D and the 5D mkII and I was going to buy the 1D out of desperation. I have been holding out to buy a new camera since a year after the 5D mkII was released (The fps was just too low for some of the golf action shots I do). The 1D mk Iv was released and the ISO noise war started - so I decided to wait for Canon's next BIG camera hoping it would be by December 2010.

The stock issue does confirm that Canon is battling with production, but at the time it was also a small sign (in my head) that something new might be coming, seeing that the 5D stock was also depleted. I did get to my senses and put 2 and 2 together regarding production - but having your hopes up and then down and then up is quite a roller coaster ride! 

My current equipment is old and it works hard - so I have to service it regularly which costs extra money. I think this whole thing is just about KNOWING... Yes - I need to know what's in a wrapped box under the tree! I am impatient...  Knowing something great is coming will help me plan services on equipment etc. I think it is the IF, MAYBE and NOT KNOWING that is driving me crazy LOL


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## Enrico (Aug 22, 2011)

Looking at the time lines of how long it has been since the last release of new bodies, comparing that to the flow of rumors, stock depletion and tone of voice among us in the forums...

... there will be things happening, and they will happen soon.

For each day that pass without an announcement, we are actually one day closer to the announcement and I think it will be quite soon. The earthquake most likely delayed things alot, but companies still need plans and they need to sell products. 

We know things will be communicated tomorrow and then by Nikon the day after - finally they are communicating new products! After that we will have alot more knowledge and be able to even more qualified guesstimates, but they are still guesstimates...

Reading this forum and having monies saved is frustrating. But in the bigger picture a month or five... will they really matter once the new bodies are released.

(Imagine IF they would have their whole roadmap public regarding bodies and lenses I think it would even harder... how to save, when to spend and what lenses to get...)


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 22, 2011)

hhelmbold said:


> > I sometimes read posts like this & slowly shake my head. Have you not heard of the Japanese earthquake which devastated parts of Japan? Canons facilities were damaged in this and as a corporate policy it is their decision not to announce a new body until they have production facilities to actually deliver it.
> >
> > It does beg the question as to the state of Canons current production facilities, especially as the EOS body plant is miles away from the earthquake zone
> 
> ...



Masaya Maeda, the head of Canon's camera division, stated that, "_Canon's production of cameras finally returned to pre-quake levels at the end of June._" Here's the link to the Reuters interview.


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## pedro (Aug 22, 2011)

Well there is one good thing about all that is going on: today is August 22 ;D So, you never can tell what lies beyond that date...Maybe we'll find a golden treasure on one of the rainbow's ends... Cheers.


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## Rincewind (Aug 22, 2011)

I can tell you that, traditionally, August 23 lies beyond August 22. Maybe this year it will all be different.


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## akiskev (Aug 22, 2011)

I bet there will be a great nerd rage from canon fanboys tomorrow..


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## aj1575 (Aug 22, 2011)

hhelmbold said:


> Don't you think a company that is bold enough to step forward and say "We are working on a camera that will blow our competitors out of the water, with a dynamic range like never before... etc etc" - is better than a rumor page where everything is a guess. I don't expect them to say it will be a camera with features A, B and C and it will be available on XX Date.
> 
> I am just wondering how much of this cloak and dagger stuff is real between competitors and how much is from watching too many spy movies



Every company works different. Just take a lock at Apple; there is nothing you know before the product is announced officialy. There are others who say, we will bring this product out in 6 months, and they show you a wooden prototype. I don't know which is better.
I think, either you are happy with what you have, and stick to it, or else you loock around to find something better. If you find something you like, buy it, if there is nothing out there, you have to wait a little longer.
Also as a pro; I think the eqiupment is important, but this is an investement you do for several years, so waiting a few months for new equipment to be announced should be bearable.


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## Chewy734 (Aug 22, 2011)

Didn't you see the rage by Nikon users when they realized that Wednesdays announcements are most likely going to be related to a new Nikon mirrorless system as opposed to a D4/D800/etc?


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## steven63 (Aug 22, 2011)

I'm frustrated also that Canon hasn't released any new DSLRs for me to druel over. By I'm sure that if I was to tour their Japan factories and witness first hand what they went through/are going through I would humble myself quickly and patiently wait for them to decide for themselves, and as a nation, what their recovery timeline is.


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## thepancakeman (Aug 22, 2011)

Flake said:


> So which way would you rather have it? Announcement of a camera which you cannot get your hands on, or a company which says we're not going to announce the camera until we can ship it? With either policy you don't get your hands on a new camera.



Personally, I like a little lead time knowing what a coming product is. That way I can either drool and dream or decide "hey, nothing there worth waiting for, I'll get a current model." 

Waiting until it's available with a "surprise, here it is!" is still an anouncement, and I'm still not likely to buy right away just because I need some time to digest what exactly the surprise product is.


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## nex-s (Aug 22, 2011)

From a company point of view I believe it is way better not to say anything about the upcoming product, the date it is coming and whether there will be one whatsoever. Look at Apple, there is so little information about their upcoming products compared to other companies and hence loads of people are still buying the iPhone 4 now, when we already know, that there will be a new one in september. If there is no information about anything, people don't usually see the point of waiting and therefore buy a current product/model and bring the company profit. If they knew something much better is coming out in half a year or a year maybe, they might just save the money and wait for it which is not good for the company.

For us, of course, it is better to know everything, so we can decide what to do and how to save money. But we have to understand that any companies aim is to have as much profit as it possibly can.


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## WarStreet (Aug 22, 2011)

It is a disaster both for the company and eventually on the customer if companies like Canon officially announce a replacement model very early. If it is a replacement product, expected sales of current model decreases and also expected sales of accessories too. The predicted cost/pricing/replacing cycle/profit won't be as expected. 

Very few users read and care about rumors, and this won't do any harm to Canon, but an official announcement will harm the company. 

Staff that are not replacement of a current model, can be mentioned much before. An example of this is the 200-400 lens. Canon mentioned and showed pictures about this lens before an official announcement. This is positive for the company, especially since the competition already have such a lens.

Most decisions from the company are done for the customer's advantage even though it might look otherwise. Specs/pricing/timing is an art, and companies like Canon have to make decisions to satisfy the biggest number of customers which translates to profit. Ok, so cutting the prices by half is good for the customer ? No if it is not feasible for the company, which translates to a weaker future for us users. It is a balance. For example, releasing a camera 2 months after the competition with better specs. The competition clients will be happy for 2 months, and the Canon clients will be happier for 3 years, and during these 3 years, reviews/comparison will give Canon an advantage which again translates to better future products for us users. 

Sorry to sound strange, but I want to show that this is not an easy subject. I am waiting for a future FF camera too and I understand the frustration.


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## Ghostdive (Aug 22, 2011)

WarStreet said:


> It is a disaster both for the company and eventually on the customer if companies like Canon officially announce a replacement model very early. If it is a replacement product, expected sales of current model decreases and also expected sales of accessories too. The predicted cost/pricing/replacing cycle/profit won't be as expected.
> 
> Very few users read and care about rumors, and this won't do any harm to Canon, but an official announcement will harm the company.
> 
> ...



I dont' think its possible to change specs yet . Did someone think, if they need 2-3 years, to develop a new camera, than they can change some specs within two month? Lets say nikon push now an 40mp sensor on here highendmodel and canon only have an 36mp sensor, or on have 10 fps and the other then must have 12 fps? I don't thin the opposit company can develop an new sensor or chip to the market within two month.

I think they can make changes in the software, but not in the hardware within an short timeframe.

Lets see what the next days or weeks comes 
Wait also for an new camera. If the price is not to high, i'll go to the 1D line (basically weathersealing, maybe some other specs are also nice too). If its to much, the direction would be the 5D.


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## WarStreet (Aug 22, 2011)

Ghostdive said:


> I dont' think its possible to change specs yet . Did someone think, if they need 2-3 years, to develop a new camera, than they can change some specs within two month?



I don't think they can do it neither. I think that the development of a product consists from multiple versions with small differences, rather than just one.


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## 7enderbender (Aug 22, 2011)

*Thank you Canon*



hhelmbold said:


> Is it just me or does it feel like Canon is dragging their heels in getting back as the market leader in the Pro SLR market? Maybe I should wait till September to point fingers, but I am really getting disillusioned with Canon. I am doing a lot of pro golf events for magazines and studio work. After a lot of saving and hard work I got enough money together in December last year to move to the 1Ds range and I knew buying one then would be a mistake - so I waited. There were times I thought I should just get a 1D, but there's no stock... So I am still waiting.
> 
> Now reading things like "However, weâ€™re told Canon is more interested in getting production up to 100% before announcing new EOS products" is not really the type of news I want to read...
> 
> ...




I think people need to stop complaining about things that are really non-issues. Last time I checked, Canon was and remained the market leader and actually gained a little over Nikon in 2010. Not that it matters.

Pros will use whatever is available and fits their needs and budget. I mean, I am "just" an amateur photographer because I make my living in a different industry and, hence, use photography, music and sports as an outlet for my own enjoyment. But I still follow what goes on in those industries so I think I may be able to make a valid point here.

So, if anyone paid me to take pictures at pro gold events I'd bring whatever I need for that given that I'd be paid accordingly. You need a pro camera now or yesterday? Why not buy which ever you prefer and that fits your lenses? Who cares if its the red or yellow brand? And if for whatever reason you don't want to buy a current model you can always buy used or rent for specific jobs. That's what pros do.

The complaining about stuff and the whining how expensive and insufficient it all is will mostly come from non-pros with nothing better to do. Which makes sense to some degree, because $10,000 in camera gear is actually A LOT of money for a hobby. For paid work it's not. Or when did you here the last time that the pizza delivery guy complained about the cost of his 1998 Corolla? Probably in the same ball park as a few pro photography tools. Yes, to us amateurs gear is expensive. For pros the tools are actually pretty cheap compared to the equipment cost in other industries.

One more thing: instead of complaining about Canon/Nikon we should be grateful that they are (still) around and catering to pros as well as amateurs. Good stuff for actually pretty low prices given that there are really are no high grade 35mm alternatives available in the digital age. Try digital medium or large format...

We're just lucky that Canon still seems to be interested in maintaining its image as a professional photography company - despite the fact that most of their revenue comes from office machines and consumer grade P&S cameras. So we might want to scale back the negative commentary a bit. How about "Thank you Canon. Keep up the good work. Can't wait to see what next thing you cook up that is only for a small fraction of your market and has cost you a fortune to develop!"


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## akiskev (Aug 22, 2011)

Thank you Canon. Keep up the good work. Can't wait to see what next thing you cook up that is only for a small fraction of your market and has cost you a fortune to develop!

In fact I think I'll donate them a couple of thousand euros because they are so loyal to us consumers!


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## gene_can_sing (Aug 22, 2011)

As a video guy, I've been fed up for a long time waiting for fixes to minor problems (moire and aliasing) that competitors have solved already (Panasonic and Sony). But this time, I think Canon might actually release something. It's too hard for me to switch as I have to much Canon equipment.

As for not being able re-tweak the line after the Nikon and Sony announcements, I think Canon has all their bases covered. I'm certain they have a number of different proto-types with different features and mega pixels, and since they are announcing after Sony and Nikon, they will use the proto-type that best matches or exceeds the competition.

Canon can move slow because there is not much competition in the high end camera business. Nikon is the only major competitor at this point, but I think the real threat will come from Sony if Sony wants to go all out. Sony has more money than Canon and Nikon combined + much more additional.

I hope Sony gives Canon the wake up call they need to start actually releasing new DSLRs that are worth buying. Competition is good, and unlike the computer industry, there is a serious lack of it in cameras.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 22, 2011)

*Re: Thank you Canon*



7enderbender said:


> We're just lucky that Canon still seems to be interested in maintaining its image as a professional photography company - despite the fact that most of their revenue comes from office machines and consumer grade P&S cameras.



I don't think that's entirely true. You're right that office machines are the largest chunk, but in 1Q2011, approximately 35% of Canon's revenue came from their camera division. Canon sells a lot more P&S than dSLRs, with the latter only represent around of 20% of uint sales. But units don't matter, value does - and dSLRs and lenses make up around 70% of revenues from the camera division. So, that means something on the order of 25% of Canon's sales revenue comes from their dSLR lines. Granted, the vast majority of that is the Rebel/xxxD line, but still, they have a strong incentive to maintain position as a market leader, and the cache of the pro lines is a part of that effort.

For the numbers, see Canon's 1Q2011 report.


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## 7enderbender (Aug 22, 2011)

*Re: Thank you Canon*



neuroanatomist said:


> 7enderbender said:
> 
> 
> > We're just lucky that Canon still seems to be interested in maintaining its image as a professional photography company - despite the fact that most of their revenue comes from office machines and consumer grade P&S cameras.
> ...



Exactly right. I've been looking for the actual details on the figures in their financial statements but didn't quite find what I was looking for. But I'm on the same page with you, only that I counted the Rebel series as part of my broad statement about "P&S" cameras. Whatever you want to call the consumer and "pro-sumer" segment. It gets even more confusing because Canon actually puts all camera related items under "consumer".

Revenue alone is not helping us either since we'd need to know what the actual profit on the 1-series cameras is. In the big picture probably not a lot. But of course they benefit from image/cache and trickle-down technology.

So, really. It's all good in the end. They've been a leader in the pro and consumer camera market for quite a while, just survived an earthquake and the aftermath of a national catastrophe and obviously still working on bringing to market a few more big ticket items. What's the rush? The current line-up of gear obviously works well at all levels.


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## hhelmbold (Aug 22, 2011)

Wow... never meant to shake the bee hive  Also just want to make it clear that I am not really "Fed Up" with Canon... more Fed Up with waiting and being unsure. And yes... maybe it's not right being so anxious, but hey - if it wasn't for us over eager people - companies would take years before bringing out new stuff 



> Personally, I like a little lead time knowing what a coming product is. That way I can either drool and dream or decide "hey, nothing there worth waiting for, I'll get a current model."



I have to agree with this - but then I must say, if I think about other announcements from Canon, they have released some info well in advance. When it's not such a big upgrade. So I suppose the fact that we have to wait longer, must mean something good is coming


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## te4o (Aug 22, 2011)

Like in Nature it is about competition - if a pro looses ground because his competition makes better pictures/videos with updated gear - he just needs investing again (provided funding available). Buy always the latest modell and sell the used one to us hobbyists. If a pro is established and doesn't suffer loss of ground, pro can wait, companies too. If a pro waits and looses ground - he is not a pro anymore.

All the rest of the trigger-clicker community is like readers on a writers festival.
Cheers


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## awinphoto (Aug 22, 2011)

te4o said:


> If a pro waits and looses ground - he is not a pro anymore.
> 
> Cheers



spoken by a non pro? =)


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## thepancakeman (Aug 22, 2011)

From a "not a pro"--I've been selling some shots from triathlons and bike races this summer, and the wait for equipment has nothing to do with being left behind--a better AF, more frames/second, better high iso performance and more MP would allow me to catch more keeper shots and thus the potential for more sales.

And THAT is why I'm so anxious. 

P.S. Tried a 7D and it had most of the above but I found the images were softer than on my (wife's) 40D so I decided to wait.


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## Flake (Aug 22, 2011)

te4o said:


> Like in Nature it is about competition - if a pro looses ground because his competition makes better pictures/videos with updated gear - he just needs investing again (provided funding available). Buy always the latest modell and sell the used one to us hobbyists. If a pro is established and doesn't suffer loss of ground, pro can wait, companies too. If a pro waits and looses ground - he is not a pro anymore.
> 
> All the rest of the trigger-clicker community is like readers on a writers festival.
> Cheers



You'd have to have really appalling gear for that to make a difference, even the old 1Ds is still being used as a pro body today, and just to reiterate it's not the gear which makes a photographer good, it's the other way around!

I would never buy the latest kit, the problem is that it takes an age for Adobe & other software providers to issue their RAW / ACR updates, meaning that you have a camera which for professional use is just about useless. Oh I hear the cry you can convert to DNG! yeah well try converting 1000 files manually because DPP is the only software which is useable (yes I know it will batch them, but it's another unecessary step) then working through them all as DNG through the workflow software. If you're lucky the only glitch will be the software / firmware (A la 5D MkII) but it could involve a workshop visit (A la Nikon D5000 twice!).

A wait for 6 - 12 months on any new camera body is good advice - and the price usually drops to a more sensible level too.


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## pedro (Aug 22, 2011)

"A wait for 6 - 12 months on any new camera body is good advice - and the price usually drops to a more sensible level too."


Plus one. I am going to wait at least 1.5 years.


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## EYEONE (Aug 23, 2011)

thepancakeman said:


> P.S. Tried a 7D and it had most of the above but I found the images were softer than on my (wife's) 40D so I decided to wait.



Gotta turn the sharpness up on the presents. It does have a softness issue but it can be extremely sharp.


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## thepancakeman (Aug 23, 2011)

EYEONE said:


> thepancakeman said:
> 
> 
> > P.S. Tried a 7D and it had most of the above but I found the images were softer than on my (wife's) 40D so I decided to wait.
> ...



I shoot in RAW and it was my understanding that sharpness has no effect on RAW. Maybe I'm wrong on that??


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## april (Aug 23, 2011)

P.S. Tried a 7D and it had most of the above but I found the images were softer than on my (wife's) 40D so I decided to wait.
[/quote]

i assume you shoot with the 7D; who shoot with 40D? if it was your wife shooting at the same subject you were shooting with the 7D then i'm sure the 40D will get a slight edge in sharpness but that's not because of the camera most probably it's because men tend to be more shaky than women and that is why in semicon industry they only hire women in resoldering microchips


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## te4o (Aug 23, 2011)

With the Zeiss I had to turnthe sharpness preset down - it looked unnatural otherwise. I think it matters even in RAWbecause your converter reads this and applies the sharpness rules. At least that's what I understood from neuro's explanations some time ago but I may still not have got it right.
I got the 40D just after it ran out for the same reasons as mentioned above but I am NOT ambitious.
Still no major improvement worth an upgrade around for a
Simple Clicker like me. The wait is exciting but not hurting...


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## hhelmbold (Aug 23, 2011)

> I would never buy the latest kit, the problem is that it takes an age for Adobe & other software providers to issue their RAW / ACR updates, meaning that you have a camera which for professional use is just about useless.



You would also never get that "out of the box, new feeling". This is a matter of opinion... some people can't wait for Christmas, others couldn't care. I will install Beta operating systems to see what's new and work through the bugs - others will stick with Windows XP because it's more "stable"

At least I know when I have a brand new camera that the support will eventually follow


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## 7enderbender (Aug 23, 2011)

hhelmbold said:


> > I would never buy the latest kit, the problem is that it takes an age for Adobe & other software providers to issue their RAW / ACR updates, meaning that you have a camera which for professional use is just about useless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's a good comparison. Was just thinking about that as well. There are obviously different user types. I'm your typical "Windows XP" kinda guy. I had to use Win Vista once and was annoyed by it. Win 7 may be better but at the moment I just do not care. I use XP/Office 2003 at work (10000+ employee company that will not roll out anything new anytime soon - and frankly, why would we?). And I use the same on my home computers because I don't have the time and patience to redo everything all the time. Stuff works and does what it's supposed to do. Good enough for me. That by the way is one of the reasons why I could never be convinced to go the Apple route. The constant reminders to "update" to a new version every other month on my iTunes stuff is bad enough. As long as my workflow or equipment doesn't change I don't need more colorful versions all the time.

Same with cameras. I'd still be shooting with my old non-AF film equipment if labs hadn't gone to hell around here. And don't get me wrong, I like shiny new toys, but some things just don't add any value and I was actually quite happy to have had analog cameras that were built to last and didn't need replacement every few years. I'd rather put the money towards other stuff (more lenses or a new bike or whatever).


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## Gothmoth (Aug 23, 2011)

hhelmbold said:


> Wow... never meant to shake the bee hive  Also just want to make it clear that I am not really "Fed Up" with Canon... more Fed Up with waiting and being unsure. And yes... maybe it's not right being so anxious, but hey - if it wasn't for us over eager people - companies would take years before bringing out new stuff



go out and make pictures......
:




> Maybe I just need some feedback from fellow Canon users before I decide to switch to the yellow brand...



whenever i read something like that my brain yells -> BULLS___ or TROLL.

sorry. but is you photography so perfect that all current canon DSLR cameras are not good enough for you?
and if the answer is yes... i am (i think most here) curious to hear how nikon will increase your phantastic photos even further??

if you are not a photographer but a gear-freak.... then forget what i have said...


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## hhelmbold (Aug 23, 2011)

> sorry. but is you photography so perfect that all current canon DSLR cameras are not good enough for you?
> and if the answer is yes... i am (i think most here) curious to hear how nikon will increase your phantastic photos even further??



If you read a bit further you would see that I also said that I stay true to Canon and won't ever switch... I was speaking out of anxiety and anticipation on a new camera. I still firmly believe the best camera is the one in your hands - but if the one in your hands are becoming more and more unreliable then you have to start looking at getting new stuff.


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## hhelmbold (Aug 23, 2011)

> I'm your typical "Windows XP" kinda guy. I had to use Win Vista once and was annoyed by it. Win 7 may be better but at the moment I just do not care.



Ah - you see we are exactly opposites here  I can also try and convince you by telling you why Windows 7 is better and all the great features it has, but... why change something that works for you? But then the other side of the coin... The day WILL come when you will have to upgrade the software and computers because Windows XP is no longer supported... the current hardware gave in and the new hardware is not compatible with XP... I am there with my current equipment - time has come for upgrade


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## EYEONE (Aug 23, 2011)

thepancakeman said:


> EYEONE said:
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Well, honestly I don't know. I shoot RAW as well and the 7D is very sharp too me and I have the sharpness turned up. I know the contrast and saturation settings don't make a difference in the RAW file. Maybe sharpness doesn't either. White balance seems to matter though. I've got some time tonight, maybe I'll run a little experiment.


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## bornshooter (Aug 23, 2011)

EYEONE said:


> thepancakeman said:
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## awinphoto (Aug 23, 2011)

bornshooter said:


> EYEONE said:
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For what it's worth, on the 7D when you shoot raw, it uses the preset sharpness/saturation/etc settings you set in camera however when you get the raw, you can (in DPP) raise the sharpness or soften it, as well as all the other in camera presets... At times it can be unforgiving sharp however if you are taking zero'd out raw files and compare the same image taken on the 40D, with it's default settings, it could be seen as softer. You shoot raw to get the best quality and have full control of all settings in post... so if you are shooting raw and not taking advantage of this, then you're not getting the most out of raw.


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## thepancakeman (Aug 23, 2011)

awinphoto said:


> bornshooter said:
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I do my processing in Adobe Lightroom and have never used DPP. The little bit I played with sharpening these images in LR didn't wow me--would there be a big difference doing it in DPP? And maybe the issue is that by "sharp" I am talking a little more on the pixel level than the macro level (i.e. how much can I crop and still look good, vs. how does a full size image compare  ), and that's where I noticed the difference on details/sharpness. And the 7d image just were not as crisp as the 40d.

As a side note, I often shoot with a really small DOF, so regardless of whether my target was in focus, there is simply nothing in the frame that is terribly sharp. Maybe I got a bad 7D, as it sounds like there are some out there?


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## awinphoto (Aug 24, 2011)

pancakeman... To be honest, I dont use Lightroom (or aperture for that matter) so I cant speak for their sharpening/raw processing methods. i have used adobe raw in photoshop 4,5 and 5.5 which should be the same method? It has always given me great results. DPP is kinda cumbersome but it does save the different levels of all the camera settings in there so if you have it on a setting of 3 for instance, and you want it at 6, or visa versa, you can always go back in and change it without degrading your image. 

This question has been brought up several times on this forum over the least few years... This is such a delicate issue that I dont want to overwhelm you or give you wrong information, however as you know, with the 7D, it is going to point out every single issue with your lenses on a pixel level. That being said, you appear to have some great lenses to put on them so i would first try some rough testing... Try at different lengths and micro adjust ALL your lenses (and test at shallow dof at telephoto...) make sure the focus is spot on. 

If you have done that, make sure you are shooting at appropriate shutter speeds... Since this sensor is sooo demanding of the lenses, try shooting a few shots of 2-3-4x the focal length of the lens... if not anything else but to rule out camera shake. If that doesn't solve things, double check what you are focusing on... Since this is going to be sooo demanding on the lens, just the slightest bit off (and sometimes viewing in the viewfinder you may not be able to see if it's a hair off) Try single point or spot single point AF 1 shot AF... see if you cant nail focus. My 7d gives me erratic results at zone AF so I usually just shoot the + (single point with 4 surrounding points) or the single or spot single... those are my best performers. The + shines for me on al servo and motion photography. If still no prevail and if the camera is under warranty, send it in to be checked... make sure it is to factory specs... If this doesn't help, let me know.


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## hhelmbold (Aug 24, 2011)

> P.S. Tried a 7D and it had most of the above but I found the images were softer than on my (wife's) 40D so I decided to wait



Just want to ask one obvious question here... Are you using the same lens on both cameras? I am sure this is an obvious "Yes" but still had to check 

I also use Lightroom for all my post processing and I actually get better results from it than with Photoshop's RAW utility. I think the basic "engine" of the 2 apps are the same, but I find I have more control in Lightroom. I also use Nik Sharpener Pro, but find this can sometimes go a bit overboard on the sharpening.

Unfortunately I don't have a 7D, but I do have a 40D and this used to be a bit soft for me compared to the 1D. I set the sharpness to full on the presets and violla - never looked back. If it is too sharp, which it hardly ever is, I just pull it down a bit in Lightroom. It is much easier to "soften" one or two photos in Lightroom than sharpening a whole bunch.


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## Gothmoth (Aug 24, 2011)

hhelmbold said:


> > sorry. but is you photography so perfect that all current canon DSLR cameras are not good enough for you?
> > and if the answer is yes... i am (i think most here) curious to hear how nikon will increase your phantastic photos even further??
> 
> 
> ...



but you still havenÂ´t told us in witch way your canon camera has become unreliable.
or did you (sorry i have not much time to read all in this thread carefully)?

but i read a lot of pro photographer blogs.

and NONE of these pros is whinning about how bad their canons or nikons are!
none of them writes stuff like "hell i need a better camera.. my canon is so unreliable i think about buying into the nikon system".
or vice versa...


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## hhelmbold (Aug 24, 2011)

> ...and NONE of these pros is whinning about how bad their canons or nikons are!



uh.... did I say my Canons are bad?


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## thepancakeman (Aug 24, 2011)

hhelmbold said:


> > P.S. Tried a 7D and it had most of the above but I found the images were softer than on my (wife's) 40D so I decided to wait
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Obviously I'm going to have to play with sharpness in-camera more next go 'round. But yes, same lens. I shot the "same" 500-1000 shots every other week all summer at my team's bike race using only L glass (mostly 70-200 L IS, some with 24-105 L), so they are shots that I am VERY familiar with.


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## hhelmbold (Aug 24, 2011)

> I shot the "same" 500-1000 shots every other week all summer at my team's bike race using only L glass (mostly 70-200 L IS, some with 24-105 L), so they are shots that I am VERY familiar with.



Well I guess the only advice I can give now is saying... have fun!


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## awinphoto (Aug 25, 2011)

Do let us know if any of our suggestions help with your focus issue.


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## awinphoto (Aug 25, 2011)

Just for giggles regarding how you cant get a sharp image on the 7d, with the settings properly adjusted, can you manual focus to get a sharp image using live view zoomed in on a tripod. IF you can, then it's a AF/microadjust/camera shake/etc problem which is usually user fixable... If you cannot even pull off manual focus, then send the camera in..


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