# Lighting large groups, help needed!



## Zv (Sep 13, 2013)

Hey guys I would like some advice on a job I'm doing at the end of the month. It's going to be a series of group shots of employees for a company. It's a busy schedule over 2 days and there will be two shots with 30 people. I have pretty much full creative control and the possibility of doing the shots outside the front entrance. They also want about 30 headshots / ID type shots. The images will them be used in a magazine. 

I was wondering how you guys would approach this purely from a lighting perspective. Lenses and camera choice is already sorted, no shortages there! However in terms of lighting equipment I only have 2 shoot through umbrellas and 5 speedlites. (1 430exII, 2 YN-560II and just ordered 2 YN-560III)

I was thinking to try bouncing the speedlite off a wall or ceiling but then I keep coming up with more complex set ups with backlighting and all sorts. I think I'm over thinking this especially since the schedule is tight. 

There will be about 30 mins max for set up and execution. Then I get driven to a different location - about 4 in total. Since it's multiple locations (all offices) i can't really scout them out and research so am going in blind. 

What is your tried and true lighting set up for groups of 8 and groups of 30. Plus what works best for employee head shots?

Any help or advice would be great! 

Thanks!


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## Janbo Makimbo (Sep 13, 2013)

When doing group shots don't be tempted to put your flashes as close as you can to the group as you may find fall-off across the group. Using the inverse square law, position your flashes further away and the fall-off from them will be much less. perhaps you could get dual or tri flash stands to double up in to your umbrellas.

Hope this helps

http://ocfworkshop.com/2010/10/29/inverse-square-law/


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## Zv (Sep 13, 2013)

Janbo Makimbo said:


> When doing group shots don't be tempted to put your flashes as close as you can to the group as you may find fall-off across the group. Using the inverse square law, position your flashes further away and the fall-off from them will be much less. perhaps you could get dual or tri flash stands to double up in to your umbrellas.
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> http://ocfworkshop.com/2010/10/29/inverse-square-law/



Thanks, already familiar with the inverse square law. I am looking into tri-flash brackets but the gains are pretty minimum. (One stop for one extra flash, two stops for three extra ..) I'd rather bump up the ISO and deal with the noise in post. Forgot to mention I'll be shooting in RAW and have been doing for some time.


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## DavidKM (Sep 13, 2013)

Flashes for this type of group photo, no scouting, multiple locations, limited set-up time, no assitants = recipe for disaster 

It's one thing if you're doing this as a favor for a buddy, totally different animal if you are a hired pro.

Rent or buy some Elinchrom Rangers, into octoboxes or large beauty dishes... small consumer flashes are a dead give away. Maybe flashguns for head shots but a really poor idea for large groups and doesn't inspire any confidence that you're a working professional. I often do corporate gigs and sometimes I hire other professionals for photos I need to be included in. Honestly, if a hired "professional" photographer showed up with nothing but flashguns for large group photos... I'd send them home and step behind the camera myself. Same would be true if the photographer showed up alone without at least one assistant and a MUA ( especially for corporate and magazine work). 

...Also, don't forget a boat load of double AA's for all those flash guns. Nothing like chasing dead units and swapping out 5-10 flashes worth of batteries with clients waiting.


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## Zv (Sep 13, 2013)

DavidKM said:


> Flashes for this type of group photo, no scouting, multiple locations, limited set-up time, no assitants = recipe for disaster
> 
> Rent or buy some Elinchrom Rangers, into octoboxes or large beauty dishes... small consumer flashes are a dead give away. Maybe flashguns for head shots but a really poor idea for large groups and doesn't inspire any confidence that you're a working professional. I often do corporate gigs and sometimes I hire other professionals for photos I need to be included in. Honestly, if a hired "professional" photographer showed up with nothing but flashguns for large group photos... I'd send them home and step behind the camera myself. Same would be true if the photographer showed up alone without at least one assistant and a MUA ( especially for corporate and magazine work).
> 
> ...Also, don't forget a boat load of double AA's for all those flash guns. Nothing like swapping out 5-10 flashes worth of batteries on a professional gig with clients waiting.



It's not that big a contract. I'm not shooting for time magazine here! And who's going to carry all that gear? My non existent assistant? I'm just a part time tog who got asked to do a small time gig. But I want to make the most of it. They aren't paying enough for me to rent extra equipment. Never mind trying to find Elinchrom Rangers and Octaboxes in Japan (it would have to be shipped over like most lighting gear, the stuff here sucks big time and is 2x the cost in the US). I doubt the client would be able to tell a beauty dish from a frying pan. 

Judging by the schedule it's just 4 or 5 shots but in different locations. Battery life isn't an issue (did i mention i had 5 speedlites?) They prob expect on camera flash, run and gun style shots but I thought I'd step it up. If you honestly think it can't be done with speedlites I will pack up this whole photography thing and go home and learn to weave baskets instead!

Thanks for the confidence boost. If I wasn't nervous before ....

Edit: the woman who negotiated the deal approached me to help me out. She saw my still under construction website, pitched the idea to the company president and he went with it. They are fully aware of my non pro status. If I turn up with speedlite I think it will be OK!


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## DavidKM (Sep 13, 2013)

Ahh... then you're doing this for a friend. As I said, that's completely different, no pressure you're not a hired gun getting paid for professional quality work. You should have stated that first. It appeared as you were doing a job. That means something completely different to professional wedding/event photographers. The problems always start when you ask for money, expectations of a paying client are always difficult to deal with and you should be prepared for it. If you are not, that's what professional photographers are for.

BTW... two pro-quality strobes will be far less to move around than 5 speedlites on stands with modifiers, triggers, etc. And you don't have to rent Elinchroms, any quality hp strobe will suffice.


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## Drizzt321 (Sep 13, 2013)

DavidKM said:


> Ahh... then you're doing this for a friend. As I said, that's completely different, no pressure you're not a hired gun getting paid for professional quality work.



I think there's still probably quite a bit of pressure, but OP shouldn't be as stressed about producing the kind of work as The Strobist or McNally would turn out.

That said, get (or more likely rent) a couple of speedlites, and either use a master mounted on your camera or some RF triggers and put them on stands a decent distance away, at approximately 45 degree angles from the group facing inwards. It'd be better if you could get 2 at each point, one high one low and shooting through or bouncing from an umbrella or octo-box. It'll eat power, but you'll get much more even light. Don't feel you need to be at ISO 100 either. With some decent light, ISO 400 or even 800 will be perfectly acceptable. I'd also go to f/5.6 or 6.3 to increase your DoF. Especially if you have people ranked 3 deep. Last, don't use your 17-40 at 17mm please. At least 24mm, maybe creeping up towards 30-35mm if you have enough room. 

Actually, looking at it you will have a decent number of speedlites. If you can get some RF triggers (most also have a PC out connection so you can use 1 per pair of speedlites) that'd make it a lot easier and more reliable to trigger. If at all possible, I'd recommend showing up quite early, getting a good look at the location and then getting your friend (or someone really) to stand at various locations of where the group of people will be while you shoot them and adjust your lighting and power settings. Also use a few bits of gaffers tape to mark the edges of where people need to stand. That way, when you actually need to get shooting you'll just have to herd them into the target area, make sure you can see everyone's face, get 1 or 2 test shots and then get 1-2 minutes of a bunch of shots. Make sure you talk to them, don't just go bang! bang! bang! Tell a joke, or talk with your friend ahead of time and tell him you're going to make fun of him a bit to get a laugh. That'll help get them to relax and you'll get much better photos that way.


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## Zv (Sep 13, 2013)

DavidKM said:


> Ahh... then you're doing this for a friend. As I said, that's completely different, no pressure you're not a hired gun getting paid for professional quality work. You should have stated that first. It appeared as you were doing a job. That means something completely different to professional wedding/event photographers.
> 
> BTW... two pro-quality strobes will be far less to move around than 5 speedlites on stands with modifiers, triggers, etc. And you don't have to rent Elinchroms, any quality hp strobe will suffice.



I'll look into the strobes. Any ideas on lighting set ups? I'm thinking indoors will be far easier to control as outdoors I'll end up limited by the sync speed. And stopping down would just reduce the power of the flash further. Indoors in a meeting room I could bounce the flash off walls or ceiling for smaller groups of 8. And the ID shots I will use umbrella high and camera right with a reflector or second umbrella underneath for fill. It's really the group shot of 30 that troubles me. Might just shoot that outside and hope the sun f---s off behind a cloud! If not - shade. I scouted the entrance and it's sort of shaded by trees to an extent. Flash would be useless with that many people outdoors, right? Or just fire all 5 into the crowd and hope to God that some photons land on a few faces!


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## Zv (Sep 13, 2013)

Here's the entrance (shot with iphone)


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## RAKAMRAK (Sep 13, 2013)

Hmm, it looks like you cannot rent anything (I am assuming from whatever you have written till now) and coming from a country which is not USA I understand that. Not all countries have such extensive gear renting opportunities like US. But with 30 people standing (and sitting may be) you will need to figure out some way to put one flash to the right of the group (hitting the right side of the group) and another on the left and the third one from top of your camera. So you will need some sort of posts or walls towards your right and left (you can use something like gaffers tape or strong cloth tapes to do that). you may also want to put two of your speedlights at the back of the group facing the back wall slightly uppishly to give some light to the background and to make the group of employees standout from the background. I am assuming you have someway of remotely triggering the four flashes that are not on the camera. 

For the headshots go to the strobist website, they have a nice article on headshots in office spaces with speedlights. They may also have something on group shot.


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## Zv (Sep 13, 2013)

RAKAMRAK said:


> Hmm, it looks like you cannot rent anything (I am assuming from whatever you have written till now) and coming from a country which is not USA I understand that. Not all countries have such extensive gear renting opportunities like US. But with 30 people standing (and sitting may be) you will need to figure out some way to put one flash to the right of the group (hitting the right side of the group) and another on the left and the third one from top of your camera. So you will need some sort of posts or walls towards your right and left (you can use something like gaffers tape or strong cloth tapes to do that). you may also want to put two of your speedlights at the back of the group facing the back wall slightly uppishly to give some light to the background and to make the group of employees standout from the background. I am assuming you have someway of remotely triggering the four flashes that are not on the camera.
> 
> For the headshots go to the strobist website, they have a nice article on headshots in office spaces with speedlights. They may also have something on group shot.



Yeah I wasthinking something like that. One left one right and one on axis fill. I'll try and stand on a step ladder. I have triggers and stands plus the 560IIIs have built in triggers (why I bought them for this to make life easier). Thanks for the help.


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## Zv (Sep 13, 2013)

Drizzt321 said:


> DavidKM said:
> 
> 
> > Ahh... then you're doing this for a friend. As I said, that's completely different, no pressure you're not a hired gun getting paid for professional quality work.
> ...



Solid advice thanks! I should mention I have 4x RF-603 triggers.


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## RAKAMRAK (Sep 13, 2013)

My plan would be something like this


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## Rienzphotoz (Sep 13, 2013)

Zv said:


> there will be two shots with 30 people.
> 
> Any help or advice would be great!
> 
> Thanks!


Hi Zv, I regularly make lots of group photos in my office with up to 60 people in the pic (I am not a hired pro ... I just do it for the joy of it and the company I work for requests me to take group photos ... in return I get lots of good will and faster services from our HR and admin departments ;D). Because I only get 2 or 3 minutes max to gather everyone for the group shot in random places and the environments I shoot in don't have nice backgrounds or lighting, I bounce the light off the ceiling (when I'm indoors) with my two 600 EX-RT speedlites (triggering with my ST-E3 RT) + two Yonguo YN-300 II LED lights (these are very cheap and powerful LED lights for just $79 each) ... when I'm outdoors (usually onshore/offshore rig sites), I use 2 cheap light stands (bought from Amazon) to hold whiteboards and I bounce the light off of them ... it is not the perfect setup but it does a decent job of illuminating all the people in the pic ... once I'm happy with the image, I remove the background and any other distractions in post production and paint it to a nice matching color ... my PP takes longer than the actual image.

Edit: I see from your signature that you have 17-40L / 17-55 / 24-105L for group shots ... I've had/have all those 3 lenses and I found that 7D with 24-105L gave me better group shots than the other 2 lenses (assuming you can back up far enough to get the entire group in the image) ... I could get better deep depth of field on the 7D at f/4 (with 24-105 at 24mm) than the 5D III at 5.6


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## RAKAMRAK (Sep 13, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> ...... I use 2 cheap light stands (bought from Amazon) to hold whiteboards and I bounce the light off of them ... it is not the perfect setup but it does a decent job of illuminating all the people in the pic ...



I think that is brilliant. I have been thinking of that for long, but could not figure out how to fix the white board on the lightstands and then where to fix the speedlights. Rienzphotoz could you please some info about that if that is possible? Thank you.....


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## Rienzphotoz (Sep 13, 2013)

RAKAMRAK said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > ...... I use 2 cheap light stands (bought from Amazon) to hold whiteboards and I bounce the light off of them ... it is not the perfect setup but it does a decent job of illuminating all the people in the pic ...
> ...


Unfortunately I've never made an image of my light stands with the whiteboard on it, while in the "field" ... but here is an image I just took to show you how I use it ... there are 2 clamps with goose necks holding the board, they help position the board any direction I like ... I got 4 of those goose neck clamps for $30 a few years ago ... also the board you see in this image is a foam board for art work, which you can get for a $1 or $2, which I use for indoors when the ceiling is too high or if I need additional lights bouncing off of them ... when I'm outdoors, I use a stronger light wooden board (which I don't have at the moment) that does hold in moderate wind (provided I stabilize my cheap light stands with my camera bag ... sometimes I also use garbage bags with sand, we have a lot of sand her in Qatar as it is a desert country).


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## Zv (Sep 13, 2013)

Thanks Rienzphoto and RAKAMRAK for the tips and the lighting diagram. 

Rienzphoto - When you said you bounce two speedlites off the ceiling are they both together or split? Both at same power levels? And where do you place the LED, are they acting as fill?


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## Rienzphotoz (Sep 13, 2013)

Zv said:


> Rienzphoto - When you said you bounce two speedlites off the ceiling are they both together or split? Both at same power levels? And where do you place the LED, are they acting as fill?


In my working conditions its a bit difficult to answer that question as it varies from situation to situation ... but let me try (hope it isn't too confusing) ... if the room has identical ambient light I always split up my speedlites (at full power, if it is a large group of people ... both speedlites at the same power levels).
If the ambient light is different on one side of the group to the other, then I use the LED lights to bounce the LED light on the side where there is less ambient light to match the brighter side (but with the short time I have, this is never perfect, but it does minimize harsh shadows). 

Having said that, if the group is very large, I do occasionally use the speedlites + the LED (all at full power) bouncing off the ceiling and worry about fixing any harsh shadows or uneven lighting in post production (not the perfect situation but given the very limited time I get, I have no choice but to deal with it in PP).

One thing I've learned over the years is that group photos are a nightmare, there are always lots of things going wrong e.g. a few people are looking away from the camera (maybe checking the bosom of lady next to them or in front ;D) or someone with their eyes closed, or looking grumpy etc etc etc ... so I take as many photos as I can in that short time and clone eyes (or even heads sometimes) from one image to the other. 

As I work in a company that has 47 nationalities with varied skin tones, the group photos usually have some dark skinned people standing next to a very fair skinned person etc ... so I do have to use "screen" in Photoshop Layers to bring out the details in the dark skinned people. In an ideal world, I'd have an assistant, massive fancy backdrops, top-of-the-line lighting equipment etc etc, but since I only have what I have, I rely *heavily* on photoshop for fixing group photos ... thank God for photoshop!


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## Zv (Sep 13, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> Zv said:
> 
> 
> > Rienzphoto - When you said you bounce two speedlites off the ceiling are they both together or split? Both at same power levels? And where do you place the LED, are they acting as fill?
> ...



Brilliant! Thank you so much for this! I feel more confident about bouncing as per my original plan. And yeah I suppose I can fix up shadows in LR or Photoshop fairly easily. 

The bosom thing made me laugh btw ;D


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## Rienzphotoz (Sep 13, 2013)

Zv said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > Zv said:
> ...


You are most welcome ... wish you all the best for a great shoot ... remember, where there is no hope, sometimes there is photoshop! ;D


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## adebrophy (Sep 13, 2013)

Great subject - I learned a lot from the advice on bigger groups here. 

On individual headshots, I'd recommend a very fast option - find a large window and use that as one light and set up a strobe and umbrella on the opposite side. The results can be gorgeous - nice diffuse light all round - and you're working with one light, one stand, one modifier and a trigger on camera. Makes it very fast to dash between rooms if you have to!!


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## emag (Sep 13, 2013)

Good to see some folks stepping in to help the OP.....kinda what these forums should be about. Some people were born professional, experienced photographers.....we mere mortals have to learn. Have fun and let us know how it works out, Zv!


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## Zv (Sep 13, 2013)

emag said:


> Good to see some folks stepping in to help the OP.....kinda what these forums should be about. Some people were born professional, experienced photographers.....we mere mortals have to learn. Have fun and let us know how it works out, Zv!



Isn't until the 30th. In the meantime I'll be practicing in my living room and any other place I can! I'll keep you guys up to date. 

Adebrophy - hmmm finding a room with a window in a Japanese office might be difficult!


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## RAKAMRAK (Sep 13, 2013)

Zv said:


> Adebrophy - hmmm finding a room with a window in a Japanese office might be difficult!


(This might not give you "professional" arty portraits, but will give properly exposed headshots; however it is so stupid lighting that you may not even think it is worth it)

Ok, can you find an inside corner of two white walls? Then stand kind of at the vortex of the two white walls such that the two walls are behind you (imagine standing in the middle of "V") Ask your subject to stand at the open end of that "V", mount the speedlight on your camera but facing backwards towards the corner and fire. The results always pleases me for simple headshots.

Another good headshot lighting is available in hallways (not too wide and with white walls). Put the speedlight off camera facing one of the walls (right or left) Now depending on where you make your subject stand you can get differential lighting on both sides of the face. You may also use two speedlights hitting both the walls and get more even (or by chaning power of the flashes differential) lighting on both sides of the flash. For the headshots I will always go for bounced light (assuming that you do not have softbox or any such contraption). And if possible get some large white chart paper (may be called art paper or cartridge paper in your country). You can probably pin or tape them on any wall or glass window or partition or even white board and use them as reflector for any of the above lighting set ups.

Also pay attention to how you are asking your subjects to pose for the headshots. Do not let them stand as if you are taking passport photos. Make them stand side ways facing you. They may rest their hands on something, brace themselves tightly or looses.... different poses with similar lighting will also give you different results.


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## agierke (Sep 13, 2013)

lighting is simple, 2 45" umbrellas to left and right. get them positioned above the subjects heads so shadows fall behind them. speedlights or strobes doesnt matter so long as you understand your limitations on power output and how that will affect your optimal exposure settings. dont overthink this...you dont have the time to mess about.

the real problem will be 1. finding space to accommodate a group of 30 2. organizing that group of 30 so they aren't a mess piled on top of each other and (steps or chairs will come in handy) 3. maintaining enough depth of feild (this will greatly depend on the maximum power output your lights are capable of). 

i would bring a step ladder if i were you.


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## Zv (Sep 14, 2013)

My YN-560IIIs arrived today! 

Just had a play about with them there - these things are frikkin awesome! Especially considering the price. Built in wireless trigger work real nice and the speedlite makes a recycling whine (can be switched off) to let you know it's ready. Pretty cool!


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## pwp (Sep 14, 2013)

DavidKM said:


> Flashes for this type of group photo, no scouting, multiple locations, limited set-up time, no assitants = recipe for disaster





Zv said:


> Brilliant! Thank you so much for this! I feel more confident about bouncing as per my original plan.



If you haven't done a location check how can you be sure you can bounce your Speedlights? I've gone into locations and been hit with 40 foot ceilings, or dark brown wood ceilings or had to contend with incredibly bright light from windows that speedlights couldn't possibly balance against. Assume nothing about your location. 

Personally I just wouldn't dream of approaching an indoor group photo of 30 people equipped with speedlights. You need good old fashioned V8 universe horsepower. That means mains powered monos, be they Einsteins, Alien Bees, Profoto or whatever. In the absence of a location check, I'd go to this job with six Einsteins and a selection of modifiers. But if you are going for it with speedlights, then good luck. I hope the physical environment at your venue works in your favor. If you're doing lots of headshots as well with your speedlights, be aware that you'll flatten the batteries in short order. Take plenty of spares, external battery packs if possible.

A tip about positioning people, if you can't achieve even lighting, put the palest skinned people where there is the least light and the darkest skinned people in the lighting hotspots. 

Lotsa luck!

-PW


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## Zv (Sep 14, 2013)

PWP - thanks, good tip about the skin tones. The ceiling is relatively low and walls are white according to the client. I saw some pics of inside the office. Looks like any other office. No wood paneling!


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## digital paradise (Sep 14, 2013)

Here is something else you may find helpful.

Digital Photography 1 on 1: Episode 59: Inverse Square Law: Adorama Photography TV


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## adebrophy (Sep 15, 2013)

Zv said:


> emag said:
> 
> 
> > Adebrophy - hmmm finding a room with a window in a Japanese office might be difficult!
> ...


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## adebrophy (Sep 15, 2013)

digital paradise said:


> Here is something else you may find helpful.
> 
> Digital Photography 1 on 1: Episode 59: Inverse Square Law: Adorama Photography TV



Great vid - thanks for sharing!


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## Nishi Drew (Sep 15, 2013)

Turns out to be an informative thread, nice advice guys!
And Zv, might I ask where in Japan you're at? I'm in the country as well and do the rare part time shoot for a wedding and portrait. Just curious, and I'm around Kobe/Osaka


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## Zv (Sep 16, 2013)

Nishi Drew said:


> Turns out to be an informative thread, nice advice guys!
> And Zv, might I ask where in Japan you're at? I'm in the country as well and do the rare part time shoot for a wedding and portrait. Just curious, and I'm around Kobe/Osaka



Cool! I'm around the Nagoya area. I've been to Osaka a few times it's a great place to shoot, loved it! 

We're taking a beating from this tropical storm / typhoon this morning!


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## wickidwombat (Sep 17, 2013)

Zv said:


> Hey guys I would like some advice on a job I'm doing at the end of the month. It's going to be a series of group shots of employees for a company. It's a busy schedule over 2 days and there will be two shots with 30 people. I have pretty much full creative control and the possibility of doing the shots outside the front entrance. They also want about 30 headshots / ID type shots. The images will them be used in a magazine.
> 
> I was wondering how you guys would approach this purely from a lighting perspective. Lenses and camera choice is already sorted, no shortages there! However in terms of lighting equipment I only have 2 shoot through umbrellas and 5 speedlites. (1 430exII, 2 YN-560II and just ordered 2 YN-560III)
> 
> ...



I've done this a few times
I usually use 2 or 3 speed lights and shoot through umbrellas spread out along the front to provide a wide even spray of light everywhere depends on the group size. for 30 i'd go with 3 speed lights.

or if its windy i've turned the back of an suv into a giant softbox using a 5 in 1 reflector scrim stuck in the back with a few speedlights inside


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## Zv (Sep 17, 2013)

Thanks Wickedwombat I'll aim for three speedlites using umbrellas. Are you using three separate umbrellas on lightstands? Two on one side and one on the other? If there's wind I might see if I can find a couple of people to assist as VALs. 

How would you pose thirty people in front of that entrance? (see pic on page 1) I was thinking of rows of 8 or 9 in a sort of diamond config taken from above on a ladder. 

Thanks for the advice everyone. My friend is going to try and sort out a pre meeting where I can do more scouting. I have a much clearer idea already though. I've been bouncing speedlites about my living room to get a feel for power levels and what not. I should have more than enough light with white walls and ceiling for groups of eight and individual shots. I can get f/4 at ISO 100 for a subject 4m away at full power through a shoot through brolly. That gives me a nice baseline to help with my calculations and set up.


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## Nishi Drew (Sep 17, 2013)

Zv said:


> Nishi Drew said:
> 
> 
> > Turns out to be an informative thread, nice advice guys!
> ...



Ah, not too far from here, though I've only been through Nagoya on the way to Tokyo and back....
Yeah the typhoon was strong, it degraded into a tropical storm right before landing I think, and this area got around 500mm of rain but not as hard hit as up your way


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