# Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 20, 2018)

```
<p>A patent for an optical formula showing  a wide angle zoom lens for a full frame mirrorless body has appeared.</p>
<p>It looks like this patent is for a 16-30mm f/2.8 and has a short backfocus of 11.34mm, which tells us it’s not for a DSLR.</p>
<p><strong>Canon 16-30mm f/2.8 Specifications:</strong> (Japan Patent Application 2018-077320)</p>
<ul>
<li>Zoom ratio: 1.67</li>
<li>Focal length: 16.48-27.44mm</li>
<li>F number: 2.88</li>
<li>Half angle: 52.70 – 38.25</li>
<li>Image height: 21.64mm</li>
<li>Back focus: 12.33 – 10.00mm</li>
</ul>
<p> </p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## The Fat Fish (May 20, 2018)

Is this the first sign they could be dropping EF mount? So far almost every lens rumour favours EF.


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## Antono Refa (May 20, 2018)

The Fat Fish said:


> Is this the first sign they could be dropping EF mount? So far almost every lens rumour favours EF.



Not every patent turns into a lens.

There's the electronic side of EF, and there's the mechanical (= throat diameter & flange distance) side of EF. Canon might have the FF mirrorless have EF electronics, EF throat diameter, and a shorter flange distance, which would allow mounting all existing EF lenses with an extension tube.


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## KeithBreazeal (May 20, 2018)

A sign that times are a changin'.


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## Talys (May 20, 2018)

Antono Refa said:


> The Fat Fish said:
> 
> 
> > Is this the first sign they could be dropping EF mount? So far almost every lens rumour favours EF.
> ...


There is also still a possibility of a recessed mount that is EF compatible.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 20, 2018)

The Fat Fish said:


> Is this the first sign they could be dropping EF mount? So far almost every lens rumour favours EF.


No, there have been several patents that were FF mirrorless related over the past few years, lenses, including a EF- new lens mount converter. We know what the news lens mount will likely look like, assuming that Canon decides to go with it, which looks likely.


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## BillB (May 20, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The Fat Fish said:
> 
> 
> > Is this the first sign they could be dropping EF mount? So far almost every lens rumour favours EF.
> ...



This patent is the latest of several signs that Canon is exploring the design of a new mount for mirrorless fullframe camera. Even if Canon does bring out a FF Mirrorless camera with a new mount, that does not mean that Canon will "abandon the EF mount". In the first place it will keep making DSLR cameras. In the second place, it may bring out mirrorless models that have the EF mount, depending on how the market develops.


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## ethanz (May 20, 2018)

Time to sell all your EF gear


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## Talys (May 20, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The Fat Fish said:
> 
> 
> > Is this the first sign they could be dropping EF mount? So far almost every lens rumour favours EF.
> ...



I like how likely how the mirrorless will have a mount like the design that I like! ;D


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## brad-man (May 20, 2018)

Doesn't anyone bring popcorn anymore? This one should yield a few pages...


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## ethanz (May 20, 2018)

brad-man said:


> Doesn't anyone bring popcorn anymore? This one should yield a few pages...



Mine's a popping now.


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## KeithBreazeal (May 20, 2018)

So, when are we going to see the 8mm F1.0?


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## infared (May 20, 2018)

ethanz said:


> Time to sell all your EF gear


Yes..because there are so many mirrorless lenses to choose from for a body that does not exist! LOL!


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## Don Haines (May 21, 2018)

Antono Refa said:


> The Fat Fish said:
> 
> 
> > Is this the first sign they could be dropping EF mount? So far almost every lens rumour favours EF.
> ...



It seems like every week there are one or more lens patents.... it has to be less than ten percent of them that result in a lens being made.


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## YuengLinger (May 21, 2018)

infared said:


> ethanz said:
> 
> 
> > Time to sell all your EF gear
> ...



Somebody's facetious radar is down. We can wait to sell until the fall.


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## ahsanford (May 21, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The Fat Fish said:
> 
> 
> > Is this the first sign they could be dropping EF mount? So far almost every lens rumour favours EF.
> ...



Agree -- this is not a hard tell of what mount they'll use. Canon would be fools to put all their innovation eggs in one basket with the mount. 

It's not uncommon (if not routine) to patent things you may never build for more reasons than I can count, so I wouldn't be surprised if this was just one of many ideas they've kicked around.

- A


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## ahsanford (May 21, 2018)

BillB said:


> This patent is the latest of several signs that Canon is exploring the design of a new mount for mirrorless fullframe camera. Even if Canon does bring out a FF Mirrorless camera with a new mount, that does not mean that Canon will "abandon the EF mount". In the first place it will keep making DSLR cameras. In the second place, it may bring out mirrorless models that have the EF mount, depending on how the market develops.



Yeah, we've covered this at length. Canon is large enough to plausibly:

* Go thin mount
* Go full EF mount
* Go with one and then offer the other
* Possibly make a full EF mount yet somehow allow some mirrorless-only lenses to nestle/telescope into the body where the mirror used to be (this is rather unlikely but a pretty neat idea)

So I wouldn't read this patent as the future of the platform. It's one of many potential futures for the platform.

- A


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## rrcphoto (May 21, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The Fat Fish said:
> 
> 
> > Is this the first sign they could be dropping EF mount? So far almost every lens rumour favours EF.
> ...



there wasn't that much. there was maybe one or two lenses, which ere simply embodiment of a much larger patent application.

and the mount converter wasn't really a mount converter it was a real odd duck.

this is the ONLY patent application that has been found to be specifically for a short registration distance stills camera, and really - the only sign of it.


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## ahsanford (May 21, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> this is the ONLY patent application that has been found to be specifically for a short registration distance stills camera, and really - the only sign of it.



Sure, but the odds of Canon opening their mirrorless history books with a salvo including an f/2.8 UWA zoom seems awfully low. 

Surely -- if the thin mount is chosen -- the opening battery of glass will be a combination of staple tools and things that would show off the smaller form factor:

35 f/slow
50 f/quick but not screamingly quick
24-something f/slow

...and so on. If Canon goes thin, I see them pointing squarely at an EF adaptor for the first few years for anyone asking for the f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes. 

- A


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## KevinLegend (May 21, 2018)

FYI - the mirrorless should be out by September and ready to ship.  That's all I'm gonna say for now.


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## ChristopherMarkPerez (May 21, 2018)

I ran a check on this quote and it looks like it's from 2014.
[/snark] 



KevinLegend said:


> FYI - the mirrorless should be out by September and ready to ship.  That's all I'm gonna say for now.


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## jolyonralph (May 21, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > this is the ONLY patent application that has been found to be specifically for a short registration distance stills camera, and really - the only sign of it.
> ...



Check out the diagram in the patent. Connected onto a mirrorless body it's going to be small! A huge difference to the 16-35 on an adaptor. Remember, Canon aren't competing with themselves here. They're competing with Nikon and Sony. And to do so they have to innovate, so I think you're wrong about what lenses they'll launch with the lens.

They are competing with lenses such as the FE 16-35 2.8GM, and this new design seems to be squarely aimed at that. I wonder if the limitation to 30mm max is a way of either ensuring quality or reducing weight within the design.

I think a 24-70 2.8 or something approximating the range, is highly likely. Probably also an f/4 kit lens version.


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## Steve Balcombe (May 21, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> * Possibly make a full EF mount yet somehow allow some mirrorless-only lenses to nestle/telescope into the body where the mirror used to be (this is rather unlikely but a pretty neat idea)



Basically the same solution as EF-S, just another variation. Very neat as it totally avoids the need for an adapter.

I'm sure it would be no problem to piggy-back a more modern communications protocol onto the EF mount, or add two or three new pins which are out of reach of EF lenses.


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## jolyonralph (May 21, 2018)

Steve Balcombe said:


> Basically the same solution as EF-S, just another variation. Very neat as it totally avoids the need for an adapter.
> 
> I'm sure it would be no problem to piggy-back a more modern communications protocol onto the EF mount, or add two or three new pins which are out of reach of EF lenses.



I think it's highly unlikely now the new mirrorless camera will have an EF mount. That doesn't mean Canon won't produce mirrorless cameras with EF mount in the future, I'm sure they will. But I don't think that's what is coming next.

With the EF-S mount Canon had a solution that allows the use of the standard EF lenses on the crop bodies, so that when upgrading to full frame you can at least take some of your glass with you.

For that and many other reasons I think we're going to see the EF-M mount on the new camera, with full-frame EF-M lenses being useable on crop EOS-M cameras too. So, the EF-MF (or whatever they call it) mount will take both EF-M and EF-MF lenses, albeit with EF-M lenses having to run on a cropped mode.


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## JRWPIX (May 21, 2018)

The owner of the local camera store has seen the "Mirrorless 5D" in the wild. It can use both current EF glass, via adapter and there will be new mirrorless lenses like the EF-M. Flange size could not be ascertained before the "Mirrorless 5D" was placed into a camera bag and out of view. The EOS M5 flange/sensor/throat diameter is too small for full frame. The contact pin arrangement is in the "way" of the light path of full frame. Plan on being able to adapt Leica M glass to new FF Canon's. All EF glass will fit on the new body, via adapter. I'll bet the curved sensor patents are going to go with the new short distance lens designs, in the new "Mirrorless 5D".


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## jolyonralph (May 21, 2018)

JRWPIX said:


> The EOS M5 flange/sensor/throat diameter is too small for full frame. The contact pin arrangement is in the "way" of the light path of full frame.



Not sure where this comes from, but check out the photo of the M5 compared to the A7RII. The mounts, including contact pin arrangement, are almost identical. The EF-M mount was *clearly* designed from the start to be able to deal with full-frame sensors. 



JRWPIX said:


> All EF glass will fit on the new body, via adapter. I'll bet the curved sensor patents are going to go with the new short distance lens designs, in the new "Mirrorless 5D".



No, that won't happen. Unless the sensor is going to be adjustable between curved and flat (which isn't impossible, but isn't easy) there is no way these two things can coexist. Either you have a flat sensor, or you lose compatibility with existing EF glass.


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## BillB (May 21, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



If Canon is aggressive in introducing a FF mirrorless with a new mount, some small high quality zooms would seem to be a very important piece of the puzzle. Primes alone would't be enough. Wonder how big the new 70-200's will be, although they will be EF. At those focal lengths a new short flange distance mount wouldn't help make it any smaller or lighter. A telescoping design would though, or variable aperture.


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## takesome1 (May 21, 2018)

I would bet on a new lens mount.
Buy an adapter to keep using your EF lenses.
New lenses for the new mount. It creates a new set of lenses to sell and market. 

Face it, Canon doesn't want you to keep using your old EF lenses. They want you to buy new lenses.

.3052*8
+
While the above numbers may seem like nonsense. It is what I typed while trying to kill a small spider that ran down in to the keyboard between the 3 and 5 key. The little sucker is still in there.


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## zim (May 21, 2018)

takesome1 said:


> .3052*8
> +
> While the above numbers may seem like nonsense. It is what I typed while trying to kill a small spider that ran down in to the keyboard between the 3 and 5 key. The little sucker is still in there.



;D ;D ;D

and I'm watching Spider-Man! you just can't make coincidences like that up amazing


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## mb66energy (May 22, 2018)

takesome1 said:


> I would bet on a new lens mount.
> Buy an adapter to keep using your EF lenses.
> New lenses for the new mount. It creates a new set of lenses to sell and market.
> 
> ...



I think that the DSLR isn't dead for at least one maybe two decades. The 200D/SL2 won against M5 due to zero power operability with the right lenses for checking a scene.
My conclusion is that we will see a peaceful coexistence of EF and EF-M(?) mount. If the adapter is cheap (70 USD/EUR or so) you can buy one for each important EF lens after dismissing the DSLR. In most cases there is no size or weight penalty - take a look at the typical mirrorless lens: Built in extension tube between DSLR designed lens group and mirrorless body.

Spider removal: Vacuum your keyboard through a mesh to keep the key caps in place - also feasible for bread crumbs 

16-30mm patent: good to see Canon pull advantages out of the missing mirror by using optimized lens designs!


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## Talys (May 23, 2018)

mb66energy said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > I would bet on a new lens mount.
> ...



I think that DSLRs aren't dead until there is are orders of magnitude leaps in battery technology. 

There will always be a demand for a recording device where you can peer down a scope and not consume power. What if you're an investigator and you're taking a few dozen photos, but watching a location continuously for days? What if you're taking time lapses over a long period of time? 

And as far as EVFs have come, they have a long, long way to go before they are indistinguishable from what one sees of light bent through glass.

I don't think that large, professional cameras are dead, period. There is no magic voodoo to make 1-4kg+ lenses fit in your pocket, and that means that until someone invents tricorders, there will always be a demand for a camera body that is appropriately sized and ergonomically designed for large telephoto lenses.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 24, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Antono Refa said:
> 
> 
> > The Fat Fish said:
> ...


However, patents for a product like a mirrorless camera point to someone at Canon approving spending for R&D to develop a mirrorless system, that should be cause for discussion. Those who approve R&D budgets put money where they believe it will do some good. When it gets to the point of developing lenses and adapters, even giving dimensions for the mount, its a strong hint.


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## pj1974 (May 24, 2018)

Talys said:


> mb66energy said:
> 
> 
> > takesome1 said:
> ...



I agree, that there is a place for both DSLR and mirrorless.
Summary reasons: minimal battery usage & where the sensor is not exposed continually during 'preview'.
Quality of EVFs is improving, and in some situations are as good (or even better) than OVFs, but in other situations / scenarios, the OVF is superior. For sports, I believe DSLRs will continue to reign for some time. 

I like the live view of modern Canon DSLRs, (especially those with DPAF)... it is like having most of the advantages of mirrorless and DSLR together in 1 body! 

PJ

PS - good trick / idea to suck up spiders or breadcrumbs from a keyboard!


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## Ah-Keong (May 24, 2018)

oh! 
the new MF mount!~

Would Canon do a mount conversion service?


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## csibra (May 24, 2018)

Canon Rumors said:


> <p>A patent for an optical formula showing a wide angle zoom lens for a full frame mirrorless body has appeared.</p>
> <ul>
> <li>Image height: 21.64mm</li>
> </ul>


21.64mm height will be not enough for fullframe sensor height.


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## fullstop (May 24, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> No, there have been several patents that were FF mirrorless related over the past few years, lenses, including a EF- new lens mount converter. We know what the news lens mount will likely look like, assuming that Canon decides to go with it, which looks likely.



would you mind stating the lens mount parameters you are referring to and/or provide link please? Must have missed it - or forgotten already.


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## Talys (May 24, 2018)

I don't know why there is so much speculation about EFM being full frame.

It's not going to happen. Based on what Canon has publically said on that DPR interview and what the person(s) told CR guy, it's something clever/elegant/imaginative (I forget the words used). There is absolutely nothing clever about an EFM to EF adapter, whether it's full frame or not, because, I mean, those already exist.


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## BillB (May 24, 2018)

csibra said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > <p>A patent for an optical formula showing a wide angle zoom lens for a full frame mirrorless body has appeared.</p>
> ...



I believe that the image height is the radius of the image circle not the diameter. A 24x36 image will fit within an image circle of 21.64mm.


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## ahsanford (May 24, 2018)

BillB said:


> I believe that the image height is the radius of the image circle not the diameter. A 24x36 image will fit within an image circle of 21.64mm.



[Adds "Is EF-M big enough to cover FF sensors" to the endless/unresolved debate queue, alongside the choice to use UV/clear filters or not.]

- A


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## jolyonralph (May 24, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> [Adds "Is EF-M big enough to cover FF sensors" to the endless/unresolved debate queue, alongside the choice to use UV/clear filters or not.]



When the mount size and electrical contact positioning of the EF-M mount is almost *identical* to the Sony FE mount I can't see why we still have doubters. Well, I suppose in a world of Flat Earthers etc I shouldn't be that surprised. But the evidence is right there in front of your eyes. EF-M is full-frame capable. It was designed to be so, just as the Sony E/FE mount was.


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## fullstop (May 25, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > [Adds "Is EF-M big enough to cover FF sensors" to the endless/unresolved debate queue, alongside the choice to use UV/clear filters or not.]
> ...



Canon EF-M was definitely NOT designed to be FF-capable. There was an interview with a Canon exec who stated it. Can prob dig it out if really necessary. EF-M might possibly be "forced into FF service", just like the Sony E-mount. With all known downsides: lenses way longer, more complex, heavier and more expensive than need be = Sony FE. From how the chronology of events I am also quite certain that Sony did not design E-mount to be FF capable from the start. E-mount parameters are well chosen for APS-C but borderline for FF. Had Sony really wanted to also use it for FF, they would have made the throat width a few mm wider and things would have been much easier going forward. 

Only due to the amount of discussion in the internets re. "the many mounts Sony has and how terribly confusing that is, OMG" and with all the angst by some vocal old A-mount farts, did Sony decide to NOT introduce a wisely chosen mirrorless FF mount (in addition to APS-C E mount). Poor results of that poor decision are evident.


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## jolyonralph (May 26, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Canon EF-M was definitely NOT designed to be FF-capable. There was an interview with a Canon exec who stated it. Can prob dig it out if really necessary. EF-M might possibly be "forced into FF service", just like the Sony E-mount. With all known downsides: lenses way longer, more complex, heavier and more expensive than need be = Sony FE. From how the chronology of events I am also quite certain that Sony did not design E-mount to be FF capable from the start. E-mount parameters are well chosen for APS-C but borderline for FF. Had Sony really wanted to also use it for FF, they would have made the throat width a few mm wider and things would have been much easier going forward.
> 
> Only due to the amount of discussion in the internets re. "the many mounts Sony has and how terribly confusing that is, OMG" and with all the angst by some vocal old A-mount farts, did Sony decide to NOT introduce a wisely chosen mirrorless FF mount (in addition to APS-C E mount). Poor results of that poor decision are evident.



I don't agree. If they had designed EF-M to be APS-C only then why waste valuable space making it bigger? It's not about being "forced into FF service", it's simply that both Sony and Canon were wise enough to plan ahead and make their mounts FF capable.

Why would the throat width need to be wider? What are these "poor results" you speak of? You do realise the throat width is the same as the Nikon F mount?

And oh yes, does that mean that you won't be able to use autofocus lenses faster than f/1.4? NO it doesn't. Because it turns out that having a smaller flange distance allows you to have a smaller throat width. And I can prove it. I have just put the EF 85mm f/1.2L on the Sony A7RII with a metabones adaptor. Autofocus is working fine, there's no clipping of the image, and vignetting is no different to how it is on the Canon. 

Oh of course, we also get unclipped bokeh too, which is why I prefer this combination to any Canon DSLR for using the 85mm.

So. I hear a lot of internet experts proudly proclaiming there are so many problems with using the EF-M mount for full frame, or that the Sony FE mount somehow has problems with quality. But no-one has provided any real proof. 


Let's talk about lens mount confusion.

Right now Canon has three mounts that are only partly compatible.

EF mount takes only EF lenses (plus a few special case TS, MP-E)
EF-S mount takes all of the above plus EF-S lenses. 
EF-M takes only EF-M lenses (or others with an adaptor)

It doesn't take a genius to realise the EF-S mount is going to wither and die, Canon are surely aiming to replace the Rebel line with the EOS-M line. Their big push on the M50 is part of this. They'll produce cameras and lenses for as long as people want to buy them, but I doubt it has more than another five years in it.

It would be utterly stupid for them commercially to add a fourth mount type at the moment when it's not needed. The only viable options are to keep EF mount for the mirrorless (and then Canon has the problem that older lenses were not designed for mirrorless focusing and may not perform as well on this camera as they do on a DSLR), or to use EF-M (which ensures a new line of modern lenses that Canon can ensure are matched to the requirements and capabilities of the body).

And, unlike EF-S, the APS-C lenses will fit and work perfectly fine (albeit in crop mode) on the new camera. Some of them may even be useable almost to full-frame (I'd predict the EF-M 11-22 from about 15mm upwards could well do that) - which may not be of the same quality as a dedicated FF wide-angle, but would be handy for those who already own the lens.

And, of course, EF-M ff lenses will work fine on the crop cameras. Which would be great for the stalwarts like the inevitable 50mm f/1.8 or 85mm f/1.8.


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## fullstop (May 26, 2018)

you don't have to guess or believe. The responsible Canon execs said it publicly in the interview i linked to. Unless you believe, they were not telling the truth. 

Sony E-mount and Canon EF-M mount are very well chosen for APS-C. Sony mount was forced into FF service. Canon head designer for EF-M hints in the interview, that EF-M could possibly also be forced into FF servcie, but goes on to state that Canpon has no intention whatsoever and that it would be a very borderline ["crazy" in google translation of interview in Japanese  ] and heavily compromised thing to do. 

Already with EF mount Canon consciously chose a much wider throat width (open diameter) than what would be required "as minimum" for FF image circle. I think, they did just the same again for EF-M relative to APS-C image circle (1.6x crop). I have not seen a similar interview/answers from Sony execs, but BELIEVE, their E-Mount was designed for very compact APS-C cameras [NEX back then, later on A#### models] and was really put into "forced FF labor" as an afterthought and under marketing pressure/internet howling re. Sony introducing "all sorts of new lens mounts and abandoning good ole A-mount". 

Based on these observations I also EXPECT/THINK/GUESS/BELIEVE/SPECULATE/CONJECTURE  that Canon will bring a new FF mirrorless mount that will be very generously sized - relative to minimum for FF image circle and perfectly matched to the FFD they choose. 

Mount and lens design is one thing Canon has repeatedly demonstrated that they really know how to get things "really right".


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