# DDOS Attack Takes Down Russian Source of Canon Pre-Release Details



## [email protected] (Mar 2, 2022)

> Once every few months a new Canon product shows up on the Russian regulatory site that deals with electronics radio emissions licensing. It has long been the source of occasional product detail leaks that Canon filings reveal prior to actual announcements. Except, in Russia, this department also happens to be one of the primary bureaucracies censoring the internet most Russians are able to see. Yesterday and today, the site has been down – due, apparently, to a distributed denial of service attack.
> A camera news site that for the past two years has been keeping track of photo product applications from Russia’s Ministry of Digital Development Communications and Mass Media – reported that the outage started yesterday and has continued unabated since.



Continue reading...


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## melgross (Mar 2, 2022)

I’m sure Canon will survive this. I’m not sure the Russian economy will very well, and I hate to think of the destruction being wreaked on the Ukrainian economy by the Russians.


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## vladk (Mar 2, 2022)

Russia’s Ministry of Digital Development Communications and Mass Media will have nothing to care about very soon.
No digital development, no communictions, and no mass media.
And no Canon, of course.
Glory to Ukraine!


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## takesome1 (Mar 2, 2022)

The US military at work and war.








United States Cyber Command - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




Or we can pretend it is a bunch of mad Ukrainians on twitter.


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## PGSanta (Mar 2, 2022)

Good. ****** Russia.


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## justaCanonuser (Mar 2, 2022)

melgross said:


> I’m sure Canon will survive this. I’m not sure the Russian economy will very well, and I hate to think of the destruction being wreaked on the Ukrainian economy by the Russians.


Plus, and foremost, the people, the victims of this destruction. We've been traveling in the Ukraine, been in Kiev, my wife lived and worked more than a year in Ivanofrankivsk in Western Ukraine many years ago. It really hurts us to watch this crazy war and what it does with the people in Ukraine who fight for their freedom. It is so sad...


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## melgross (Mar 2, 2022)

justaCanonuser said:


> Plus, and foremost, the people, the victims of this destruction. We've been traveling in the Ukraine, been in Kiev, my wife lived and worked more than a year in Ivanofrankivsk in Western Ukraine many years ago. It really hurts us to watch this crazy war and what it does with the people in Ukraine who fight for their freedom. It is so sad...


Well, of course in Putin’s twisted version of history, Ukrainians are just Russians after all, and they’re welcoming the Russian forces in with open arms and flowers.


Too bad our ex president is just as batty and said that it’s a genius move, because Putin is getting a country for “just two dollars of sanctions.” Maybe he doesn’t understand what’s going on?


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## northlarch (Mar 2, 2022)

If you’re a member of the global economy in the 21st century, and you blatantly violate another country’s sovereignty, ignore international laws, and engage in war crimes, then prepare to be isolated and crushed financially.


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## unfocused (Mar 2, 2022)

justaCanonuser said:


> ...We've been traveling in the Ukraine...



I'm sure this was just an oversight, but referring to Ukraine as "the" Ukraine is offensive. It implies that Ukraine is simply a region, rather than an independent country. It may seem like an insignificant thing, but it goes to the heart of the current situation. Many Americans don't understand this and it is always good to point out, especially now, when Putin has gone to war to try to deny Ukraine's status as an independent country rather than simply part of greater Russia.


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## dolina (Mar 3, 2022)

I am sorely disappointed that our source for legitimate and verifiable Canon rumors is now down due to DDoS.

What will the photo forum community do without rumors to munger?

There are other things to consider.

A lot of raw materials that are used in Canon products are sourced from Eastern Europe. So may as well write about this as well.


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## bernie_king (Mar 3, 2022)

With the sanctions currently in place I doubt Canon will be registering anything in Russia for some time anyway. We can only hope this gets resolved soon so people can stop dying for politicians.


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## takesome1 (Mar 3, 2022)

melgross said:


> Maybe he doesn’t understand what’s going on?


Not to get political. But I take what you supposedly quoted as meaning that the US response is to weak. Budapest Agreement.


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## Foamberg (Mar 3, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> was interested in hasselblad cameras since i was a teenager but since hasselblad is chinese i think it's not political correct to buy one...! (especially if i see chinas russian ukraine-war statements) ;-)


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## justaCanonuser (Mar 3, 2022)

unfocused said:


> I'm sure this was just an oversight, but referring to Ukraine as "the" Ukraine is offensive.


Oh sorry, here just my German background came through, we say "die Ukraine" (die = the), and that's NOT offensive. The point is, like many Germans I am very worried, and angry, and we are fully aware that this war is just a few hundreds of miles East of us, we have Ukrainian people here who are in deep sorrow... so in total please understand that I am not in the mood of checking always my precise English wording.


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## bbasiaga (Mar 3, 2022)

melgross said:


> Well, of course in Putin’s twisted version of history, Ukrainians are just Russians after all, and they’re welcoming the Russian forces in with open arms and flowers.
> 
> 
> Too bad our ex president is just as batty and said that it’s a genius move, because Putin is getting a country for “just two dollars of sanctions.” Maybe he doesn’t understand what’s going on?


I'm by no means a Trump guy, but what he was saying is that the Free World was going to stand by and watch this happen, while consoling their guilt by talking about hefty sanctions. So far it appears he's correct. 

People worried about WW3 breaking out over this weren't all worried about US vs. Russia in Ukraine. Rather, the unchecked aggression setting the tone that Europe and the US are so adverse to fighting that they will do nothing but largely ineffective economic moves (Russia has enough allies who won't honor the sanctions, and is well practiced at letting its people starve and/or working them for no pay - its the socialist state model). That sets the stage for other aggressors to do the same. For example: If you have loved ones in Taiwan right now, ask them to leave. As actions like those prop up, suddenly there is fighting around the world. And eventually the world powers can't ignore it. And then you have WW3.


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## raystill (Mar 3, 2022)

Anonymous at work it looks like it


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## mjg79 (Mar 3, 2022)

justaCanonuser said:


> Oh sorry, here just my German background came through, we say "die Ukraine" (die = the), and that's NOT offensive. The point is, like many Germans I am very worried, and angry, and we are fully aware that this war is just a few hundreds of miles East of us, we have Ukrainian people here who are in deep sorrow... so in total please understand that I am not in the mood of checking always my precise English wording.



You need not apologise - while in English normally nations are not referred to with "the" in the way for example they are in French, the Ukraine has long been an exception. Until the past decade or so virtually all native speakers would always say "the Ukraine". It means no disrespect, it's completely neutral like saying "the Punjab". I am a native speaker and I still say "the Ukraine", it has been that way throughout my life.

Recently there has been pressure to change this - indeed I believe the Ukrainian government itself has asked people to change and this has now been picked up by political forces, in the same way they weirdly now refer to Kiev as "Kyiv" even when speaking and writing English.

It's a real hornets' nest and people get very angry on both sides as it becomes a proxy for political arguments. But I decided to write as I hate seeing a man made to feel bad and apologise when he did nothing wrong - saying "the Ukraine" in English is very normal.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> its the socialist state model


The socialist state model is what we have in the western Europe and the UK. Russia is more akin to the model in the USA, except even Russia has health care and a social net. In terms of leadership you vote for a dictator in Russia or a shorter term dictator in the USA.


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## unfocused (Mar 3, 2022)

justaCanonuser said:


> Oh sorry, here just my German background came through, we say "die Ukraine" (die = the), and that's NOT offensive. The point is, like many Germans I am very worried, and angry, and we are fully aware that this war is just a few hundreds of miles East of us, we have Ukrainian people here who are in deep sorrow... so in total please understand that I am not in the mood of checking always my precise English wording.


My apologies as well. I did not realize you are not a native speaker. My remarks were aimed at fellow Americans who are often totally ignorant of the rest of the world.

I spent some time in Ukraine in the late 90's working on a local government exchange program and it was emphasized to me by Ukrainians and Ukrainian-Americans working there that the use "the" in English was viewed as reflective of the longstanding Russian paternalism toward Ukrainians as not a separate people or nation. Today we are experiencing the tragic consequences of that paternalism in Putin's claims that Ukraine is not a real country.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

northlarch said:


> If you’re a member of the global economy in the 21st century, and you blatantly violate another country’s sovereignty, ignore international laws, and engage in war crimes, then prepare to be isolated and crushed financially.


Not going to happen. Russia has access to many of the materials needed for the modern world and the world will turn a blind eye to Russia going back to its old borders as soon as there is another chip shortage or some company works out they can't make EV batteries. The Ukraine is rather rich below the surface and companies will want access to those riches.


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## melgross (Mar 3, 2022)

unfocused said:


> I'm sure this was just an oversight, but referring to Ukraine as "the" Ukraine is offensive. It implies that Ukraine is simply a region, rather than an independent country. It may seem like an insignificant thing, but it goes to the heart of the current situation. Many Americans don't understand this and it is always good to point out, especially now, when Putin has gone to war to try to deny Ukraine's status as an independent country rather than simply part of greater Russia.


Actually, no. The United States is referred to in that way. Many times I read, and hear people saying the Ukraine. It’s a simple error. Please don’t make too much out of it.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 3, 2022)

mjg79 said:


> It's a real hornets' nest and people get very angry on both sides as it becomes a proxy for political arguments. But I decided to write as I hate seeing a man made to feel bad and apologise when he did nothing wrong - saying "the Ukraine" in English is very normal.





melgross said:


> The United States is referred to in that way. Many times I read, and hear people saying the Ukraine. It’s a simple error. Please don’t make too much out of it.


Irregardless its true that alot of native english speakurs say and rite stuff that ain't propur and thunk its just honkey dorey.

The point is, if a country (or an individual, for that matter) specifically asks to be referred to in a certain way (as the government of Ukraine did in 1993), it's disrespectful to refuse to honor that request.

The United States of America and the United Kingdom are referred to with a definite article ('the') because they are compound nouns with adjectives. Ukraine is not. Ignorance is the natural excuse of the ignorant.


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## melgross (Mar 3, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> I'm by no means a Trump guy, but what he was saying is that the Free World was going to stand by and watch this happen, while consoling their guilt by talking about hefty sanctions. So far it appears he's correct.
> 
> People worried about WW3 breaking out over this weren't all worried about US vs. Russia in Ukraine. Rather, the unchecked aggression setting the tone that Europe and the US are so adverse to fighting that they will do nothing but largely ineffective economic moves (Russia has enough allies who won't honor the sanctions, and is well practiced at letting its people starve and/or working them for no pay - its the socialist state model). That sets the stage for other aggressors to do the same. For example: If you have loved ones in Taiwan right now, ask them to leave. As actions like those prop up, suddenly there is fighting around the world. And eventually the world powers can't ignore it. And then you have WW3.


Actually, Trump said what I said he said, and a number of his apologists are having difficulties explaining away his statements. He wanted to withdraw the USA from NATO, but was dissuaded from doing so. To him, everything is a transaction. I give you money, and you give me something. The sanctions are already having a major effect on Russia's economy, and will have a larger effect ongoing. Already we’re finding that while previous buys of Russian oil are going through, new purchases are not being made. As that’s the major income source of Russia, that will have a massive effect. They’re being cut off from technology, their major banks are out of SWIFT, their ships and planes are being denied access. Their exports are already drying up.

the only significant ally they have now is China, which has publicly begun to step back from the broad cooperative agreements they made right before the war, where Putin, in his meeting with XI, failed to mention his intention to invade. China is rightfully angered. We’ll see what happens. India, which still has many weapons systems from Russia, is also on the fence about this but is moving to eliminate those, now older systems. Hungary, which was a concern, because of Orban’s friendship with Putin, has come down solidly with the West on this.

what other major allies does he have? And does it matter? Economists are saying that these sanctions can destroy Russia’s economy if they aren’t ended quickly. That doesn’t sound like “two dollars of sanctions”.


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## melgross (Mar 3, 2022)

Photo Bunny said:


> The socialist state model is what we have in the western Europe and the UK. Russia is more akin to the model in the USA, except even Russia has health care and a social net. In terms of leadership you vote for a dictator in Russia or a shorter term dictator in the USA.


No. Western Europe is not socialist. Most people don’t understand political and economic terms. For example, the states we call communist, are actually socialist. The ruling parties are called communist, but even they aren’t communist. We have socialist parties in Europe, but the governments and countries themselves aren’t socialist. They are capitalist. A socialist state has all means of major production and distribution owned by the state. That’s not the case in Europe.


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## melgross (Mar 3, 2022)

Photo Bunny said:


> Not going to happen. Russia has access to many of the materials needed for the modern world and the world will turn a blind eye to Russia going back to its old borders as soon as there is another chip shortage or some company works out they can't make EV batteries. The Ukraine is rather rich below the surface and companies will want access to those riches.


Not really. Most of the world doesn’t consider this invasion of a European country by another European country to be something they can just file away, and forget. It’s understood from Putin’s own statements over the years that he regards the modern Russian borders as not reflective of the old Russian empire, which was even bigger than that of the USSR. While he obviously can’t rebuild that, he want to receive as much as he can.

this is understood, and while the annexation of the Crimea went quickly and relatively bloodlessly, this has been very different, apparently, to his shock. It’s a major way, the largest in Europe since WWII. Other states bordering Russia are now scrambling to join NATO, even though, years ago, after the breakup, Putin forbade it. We know why now, don’t we?

these very heavy sanctions will remain in place. They are already beginning to cripple his economy. This is another thing he didn’t expect. He believed that the west souls scrabble around, not agreeing on what to do, but that didn’t happen. Even Switzerlan,m for the first time, joined the sanctions with very strong language.

look, for anyone who doesn’t understand this, we can’t engage in a shooting was with Russia. That would simply be too dangerous. People close to Putin said that he meant what he said about retaliating, possibly with nuclear weapons. We clearly don’t want that.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

melgross said:


> No. Western Europe is not socialist. Most people don’t understand political and economic terms. For example, the states we call communist, are actually socialist. The ruling parties are called communist, but even they aren’t communist. We have socialist parties in Europe, but the governments and countries themselves aren’t socialist. They are capitalist. A socialist state has all means of major production and distribution owned by the state. That’s not the case in Europe.


Communism has all everything owned by the state and usually small city states that then trade with each other. Industry and government is owned and run by the people for the people.

Socialism is a step back from that where you still have industry and usually a bigger government with people having less say.

Capitalism is where you end up with when everything is stripped out and you are left with a society run purely for money with a small government that can be bought and everything has a price.

Western Europe follows socialism and capitalism in somewhat balance with some countries wanting to push more towards communism with things like universal basic income, more local government, and a more mechanised society. 

Russia isn't too different to the rest of western Europe in that aspect.

As for political stuff: As far as the USA is concerned communism and socialism is bad and those people must have evil dictators in charge and any hint of socialism or communism making its way in to the USA would be the end of the USA as people might actually be able to afford education and health... especially if it was paid for by the state like developed nations.


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## melgross (Mar 3, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Irregardless its true that alot of native english speakurs say and rite stuff that ain't propur and thunk its just honkey dorey.
> 
> The point is, if a country (or an individual, for that matter) specifically asks to be referred to in a certain way (as the government of Ukraine did in 1993), it's disrespectful to refuse to honor that request.
> 
> The United States of America and the United Kingdom are referred to with a definite article ('the') because they are compound nouns with adjectives. Ukraine is not. Ignorance is the natural excuse of the ignorant.


It’s not disrespectful when people don’t know it. Most people can’t tell you what the capital city is in their own state.

It’s ignorance, not disrespect. Disrespect is an intentional act. At least, most people saying “the Ukraine” don’t realize it’s in error. I didn’t realize it until several years ago myself. I certainly wasn’t being disrespectful until I did.

don’t pretend that you are the arbitrator if any of this.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

melgross said:


> Not really. Most of the world doesn’t consider this invasion of a European country by another European country to be something they can just file away, and forget. It’s understood from Putin’s own statements over the years that he regards the modern Russian borders as not reflective of the old Russian empire, which was even bigger than that of the USSR. While he obviously can’t rebuild that, he want to receive as much as he can.
> 
> this is understood, and while the annexation of the Crimea went quickly and relatively bloodlessly, this has been very different, apparently, to his shock. It’s a major way, the largest in Europe since WWII. Other states bordering Russia are now scrambling to join NATO, even though, years ago, after the breakup, Putin forbade it. We know why now, don’t we?
> 
> ...


The world will fall into line to get access to the resources that man has or they'll be a Third World War. Crippling Germany's economy was also a fantastic idea that got us World War Two. Putin likely just found out he has cancer or something so if he destroys the world it won't affect him, or more likely he truly believes that the old borders of Russia before and during the USSR should be re-extablished.

Eventually if he wins or not in the Ukraine we'll have a situation were you still need to do business with Russia as they have things we need and their ally is China that also has things we need... so we'll buy it via proxy with China.


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## melgross (Mar 3, 2022)

Photo Bunny said:


> Communism has all everything owned by the state and usually small city states that then trade with each other. Industry and government is owned and run by the people for the people.
> 
> Socialism is a step back from that where you still have industry and usually a bigger government with people having less say.
> 
> ...


Communism is a dissolution of the state. Really, you should look this up before making statements that you don’t understand, and aren’t true.


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## bbasiaga (Mar 3, 2022)

Photo Bunny said:


> The socialist state model is what we have in the western Europe and the UK. Russia is more akin to the model in the USA, except even Russia has health care and a social net. In terms of leadership you vote for a dictator in Russia or a shorter term dictator in the USA.


USA still has private ownership of property and businesses, while Russia does not. Similarly, employment in Russia is managed by the government, who can fire or force work on anyone at any time. While both populations are heavily controlled by the government, there are many more degrees of freedom in the US system. 


melgross said:


> Actually, Trump said what I said he said, and a number of his apologists are having difficulties explaining away his statements. He wanted to withdraw the USA from NATO, but was dissuaded from doing so. To him, everything is a transaction. I give you money, and you give me something. The sanctions are already having a major effect on Russia's economy, and will have a larger effect ongoing. Already we’re finding that while previous buys of Russian oil are going through, new purchases are not being made. As that’s the major income source of Russia, that will have a massive effect. They’re being cut off from technology, their major banks are out of SWIFT, their ships and planes are being denied access. Their exports are already drying up.
> 
> the only significant ally they have now is China, which has publicly begun to step back from the broad cooperative agreements they made right before the war, where Putin, in his meeting with XI, failed to mention his intention to invade. China is rightfully angered. We’ll see what happens. India, which still has many weapons systems from Russia, is also on the fence about this but is moving to eliminate those, now older systems. Hungary, which was a concern, because of Orban’s friendship with Putin, has come down solidly with the West on this.
> 
> what other major allies does he have? And does it matter? Economists are saying that these sanctions can destroy Russia’s economy if they aren’t ended quickly. That doesn’t sound like “two dollars of sanctions”.


Every major political move is money oriented. There is no altruism in modern politics in any country. People just prefer the way certain politicians lie about it vs. how other politicians do. Whether the sanctions will be ineffective in the long run is based on Putin's will - he will force labor, conscript armies, silence the riots with violence, starve his population, indefinitely, until he makes the toll on the 'West' high enough that they back down. He doesn't have to care about the local ramifications the same way a Western leader would. 

China may be publicly backing down, but whether they actually are remains to be seen. We know they were very active subverting the Venezuelan sanctions. They sent unflagged or false flagged ships to offload or transload embargoed oil, falsified origin information and facilitated the sale and financial transactions of that crude in various places around the world. Not hard to believe they would do some subverting for Russia, with whom they seem to have a better relationship, and certainly wouldn't mind getting their hooks in to a little further. There is also a lot of underground trade between Russia and the middle east which can also provide a pathway for goods and services to keep the Russians going.

Its just a bad situation no matter how you slice it. Hopefully it doesn't end in the worst possible way.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

melgross said:


> “the Ukraine”


The Ukraine comes from the more literal translation being The border lands. Like how we call Nipol, Japan. I am unsure why we don't just call each country by their own defined name, it seems daft each language has their own word for another nation.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> USA still has private ownership of property and businesses, while Russia does not.


This is not true. I have a few friends in Russia and they very much own their own businesses, homes, and even land. This was not true during communism. Even in China that is supposedly communist you can own a business and land.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

melgross said:


> Communism is a dissolution of the state. Really, you should look this up before making statements that you don’t understand, and aren’t true.


I would suggest you take your own advice. If you had, you wouldn't be trying to 'correct' strait up fact. I will not argue with you that white is black or the world is flat.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> I don't think so. Obama-era sanctions reduced Russian GDP by 35% and even as of two weeks ago, was still 25% below that pre-sanctions peak. The world clearly remembered the Crimean Anschluss and I'm puzzled why you think they'd be so fast to forget these far bigger attacks.


The world has to get back to business with Russia. While it would be lovely for some to cut ties with Russia and/or China that would mean the end of modern society as they have things we need to make microprocessors and even car batteries. It is also why a blind eye is turned when some dictator sends children down a mine for rare earth metals.. we need them.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 3, 2022)

melgross said:


> It’s not disrespectful when people don’t know it. Most people can’t tell you what the capital city is in their own state.
> 
> It’s ignorance, not disrespect. Disrespect is an intentional act. At least, most people saying “the Ukraine” don’t realize it’s in error. I didn’t realize it until several years ago myself. I certainly wasn’t being disrespectful until I did.
> 
> don’t pretend that you are the arbitrator if any of this.


So if someone posts racial and ethnic slurs without knowing they are doing so, it's perfectly fine with you?

I repeat: ignorance is the natural excuse of the ignorant.


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## bbasiaga (Mar 3, 2022)

Photo Bunny said:


> This is not true. I have a few friends in Russia and they very much own their own businesses, homes, and even land. This was not true during communism. Even in China that is supposedly communist you can own a business and land.


I know the Russians at work do not describe it that way. Perhaps is a semantics thing - you 'own' it, but the government can take or redeploy it at any time with no recompense. I know this happened to the personal home of one of them. I'm not sure when I'll see those guys next, but I'll have to ask for clarification. 

Similarly, i know for a fact China does the same thing. We had some contacts there who's home was taken with no compensation in order to build a road. 


Brian


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> ???
> 
> In between aid to Ukraine and sanctions on Russia, the rest of the world is hardly standing by, and also bears no "guilt" for this situation. It is entirely of Putin's making.
> 
> ...


In a way I have to agree with the OP. That war mongering lunatic is right, if the world really wanted to help Ukraine it would be sending troops and establishing a no fly zone. However all the real help would be considered acts of war so instead we are sending food, baby boxes, and the occasional lunatic that will get handed a gun at the border them promptly get lost and die or cause local soldiers to have to look after them.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> I know the Russians at work do not describe it that way. Perhaps is a semantics thing - you 'own' it, but the government can take or redeploy it at any time with no recompense. I know this happened to the personal home of one of them. I'm not sure when I'll see those guys next, but I'll have to ask for clarification.
> 
> Similarly, i know for a fact China does the same thing. We had some contacts there who's home was taken with no compensation in order to build a road.
> 
> ...


That isn't too different from many other countries. In the UK you can be forced to sell your house/land to the government and it may not be what you think it is valued at. In China you are offered a similar property. In Russia I haven't had anyone report this though one dear friend of mine is rather upset that her husband is now in jail and likely for decades because he was at a no war protest which is a big no-no in many countries during war.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about.


Japan is not called Japan. Even in Scotland we have towns that where given English names and no one refers to the town by the English name because that is not what the town is called. In the same sense The Ukraine is The borderlands, and if you asked someone in that country they wouldn't likely say they are Ukraine. I certainly don't live in Écosse.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> Ironically, though, the Russian govt position is that it's NOT war: they shut down the last private TV and radio stations a couple days ago for referring to it as a "war."


Well it is like when the USA and UK go over to liberate some people of their oil. It isn't a war, it is defeating terrorists and some dictator that we know he has weapons of mass destruction because we still have the receipts of when we sold them to him. To the Russian people they are going to say they are doing much the same and this is just and they are reuniting families and it isn't a war, they are removing nazi terrorists.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> Other than reducing Russia's GDP 35%


I think that is one of the most American ways of looking at something and it just doesn't compute in the minds of people in other countries. GDP is important to some people and some counties, but irrelevant to others. Maybe it makes it slightly more expensive for someone to repay their mortgage? But that is more on the counties bank to set the interest rate and if my countries GDP dropped I would still earn and spend the same amount of money. 

Apparently Scotland dissolving the union would drop our GDP, leaving the EU dropped out GDP as did Covid... but those GDP drops haven't changed a single thing to what you spend your money on.


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## SteveC (Mar 3, 2022)

Photo Bunny said:


> The Ukraine comes from the more literal translation being The border lands. Like how we call Nipol, Japan. I am unsure why we don't just call each country by their own defined name, it seems daft each language has their own word for another nation.


In some cases a language doesn't have the proper sounds to render the other country's name the way they do, and even if they sort of do, it will end up being thickly accented. For example, China's name for China is spelled, in Pinyin, Zhongguo, but it doesn't sound at ALL like it looks (About half of the consonant sounds in Chinese are _not _in English at all, so the "mapping" of sounds to letters in Pinyin is totally counter-intuitive). If you hear it spoken and _don't_ know Chinese it will sound _something like _"chong-woe" but that first sound is not actually a "ch" sound; it's something we don't have so our brains basically guess and decide it's a "ch."

There's basically no way an English speaker is going to get "Zhongguo" right without learning some Chinese. I know I can't do it.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

SteveC said:


> In some cases a language doesn't have the proper sounds to render the other country's name the way they do, and even if they sort of do, it will end up being thickly accented. For example, China's name for China is spelled, in Pinyin, Zhongguo, but it doesn't sound at ALL like it looks (About half of the consonant sounds in Chinese are _not _in English at all, so the "mapping" of sounds to letters in Pinyin is totally counter-intuitive). If you hear it spoken and _don't_ know Chinese it will sound _something like _"chong-woe" but that first sound is not actually a "ch" sound; it's something we don't have so our brains basically guess and decide it's a "ch."
> 
> There's basically no way an English speaker is going to get "Zhongguo" right without learning some Chinese. I know I can't do it.


If you were taught the counties and capitals of the world as a child I am sure you would get. Saying Zhongguo right while teacher is there isn't going to be any different than remembering this other collection of characters means China. To me It has always irked me that a rather imperialist practice is considered ok just because it is easier to say. My family used to call the footmen Henry and Harry interchangeably regardless of their names, because it was easier to remember that footmen are called Henry or Harry.


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## takesome1 (Mar 3, 2022)

Photo Bunny said:


> Like how we call Nipol, Japan.


 When making corrections one should be correct.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> When making corrections one should be correct.


Nihon_, _though to my ears when said it sounds like Nipol. However you are suggesting I was making a correction which is incorrect.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> It certainly is. I can document this easily. I still can't understand what you're talking about. What is this "Nipol" you said?


日本 - Ni-hon. Sounds to my ears like Nipol and nether sound like Japan.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> What the heck are you talking about?


You've clearly missed the last few decades.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> I don't know about that. I've lived in five countries and they all compute like that. Granted that's 200 countries I haven't lived in, but which country is it that you're saying doesn't care about their GDP or personal income? Stop talking in riddles and just say what you mean. Tell us that country X doesn't understand or care about economic well-being, and we'll take it from there.


While there are various calculations for GDP it remains irrelevant. If your countries GDP goes down your wages don't suddenly drop. Indeed more often than not GDP shrinking means less people are spending money on products and services so that may impact companies more than individuals. Regardless, GDP growth or shrinkage is rarely relevant to matters of war or passion. The UK left the EU and GDP went down, yet to those in England that isn't relevant because now they have their country back.


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## takesome1 (Mar 3, 2022)

Photo Bunny said:


> You've clearly missed the last few decades.


You mean he is unable to do a simple google search to read this:
_Historians say the Japanese called their country *Yamato* in its early history, and they began using Nippon around the seventh century. Nippon and Nihon are used interchangeably as the country's name._
Still looking for Nipol. It seems to be some type of rubber.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> We also read that Nippon. It sounds nothing like "nipple" or whatever you're saying. I've lived here since 1991 and no-one would understand what the hell you were talking about if you went around saying nipple nipple. It's weird. Why are you posting all this strange stuff?


Did you miss the original post where there was talk that The Ukraine is considered offensive and how the country is known as The Ukraine? There are only three pages here so I'll let you get caught up on your own.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> Still looking for Nipol. It seems to be some type of rubber.


Phonetic spelling of how it sounds to my ears seems not to have been the best example.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> Are you a troll or something?
> 
> I've lived in London three years and have dozens of friends there. You'll not find many more money-concious English speakers than Londoners, and they're pissed as hell about the drop. Where are you getting your information? And what do you mean, have their country back?!!? When did they not have their country?


Londoners by far voted to remain so of course they are worried about that. Those that voted to leave don't give a monkeys about the GDP drop because now they can't be controlled by Europe and don't have any evil immigrants. Did you miss all of the unpleasantness of England leaving the EU? People that had lived in England for years getting letters though their door informing them "We voted you out?".


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## Kit. (Mar 3, 2022)

melgross said:


> what other major allies does he have?


As usual for Russia: the Army and the Fleet. Ah, now also the Nuke.



melgross said:


> No. Western Europe is not socialist. Most people don’t understand political and economic terms. For example, the states we call communist, are actually socialist. The ruling parties are called communist, but even they aren’t communist. We have socialist parties in Europe, but the governments and countries themselves aren’t socialist. They are capitalist. A socialist state has all means of major production and distribution owned by the state. That’s not the case in Europe.


Most people (including you) don't understand political terms, in part because political terms are chosen to be intentionally misleading. What you are calling "socialism" is technically state capitalism. Both Commies and Nazis were calling themselves "socialists" just because in the discourse of the early 20th century Europe "a socialist" was a synonym of "a good guy".


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## SteveC (Mar 3, 2022)

Photo Bunny said:


> Phonetic spelling of how it sounds to my ears seems not to have been the best example.



And you just made my point for me, thank you.

Their consonants don't quite match the ones you're used to--articulated just a bit differently--so you guessed what you were hearing and heard it wrong.

You'd probably have a riotous time with languages that distinguish between an aspirated p and an unaspirated one. English does not, but we very consistently aspirate the p in pot but do not aspirate the p in spot. We don't even notice the difference but to, say, Koreans, these are two very different sounds. Pinyin uses B for an unaspirated p, and P for the aspirated p; so we look at it and say why the heck didn't they use P for P and B for an aspirated P? Because B is never aspirated when we speak it, and it sounds more like an unaspirated P (to them) than an aspirated P does.

If we tried to pronounce every country name the way their residents do, we'd simply butcher almost all of them. You're doing it with Japan, while arguing it wouldn't be a problem.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

SteveC said:


> And you just made my point for me, thank you.
> 
> Their consonants don't quite match the ones you're used to--articulated just a bit differently--so you guessed what you were hearing and heard it wrong.
> 
> ...


If taught in school I am sure most would pick it up in the same way you learn how to spell and pronounce the English names.


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## unfocused (Mar 3, 2022)

@Photo Bunny, I think you are in that situation where the best way to get yourself out of a hole might be to stop digging.

I do find it interesting that English speakers seem hellbent on anglicizing even simply pronounced place names. For example, why we call Firenze "Florence" and Roma "Rome." Or, for that matter, how did Deutschland become "Germany?" I am sure there is some linguistic history there. And, it does seem like we are getting a bit better about respecting some place names -- Beijing instead of Peking and Mumbai instead of Bombay, for example.


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## TMHKR (Mar 3, 2022)

Some incredibly crucial info on a photography gear rumors website, I'll keep that in mind when Canon releases R3.6 with an active caesium-137 filter.
Unbelievable.


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## mjg79 (Mar 3, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Irregardless its true that alot of native english speakurs say and rite stuff that ain't propur and thunk its just honkey dorey.
> 
> The point is, if a country (or an individual, for that matter) specifically asks to be referred to in a certain way (as the government of Ukraine did in 1993), it's disrespectful to refuse to honor that request.
> 
> The United States of America and the United Kingdom are referred to with a definite article ('the') because they are compound nouns with adjectives. Ukraine is not. Ignorance is the natural excuse of the ignorant.



Gosh, what an unpleasant diatribe. Your immediate resort to personal insult is very telling - it's as sure a measure as one will ever find that someone has no valid argument. Suffice it to say that when it comes to both the subject of the history of that part of the world and certainly when it comes to linguistics, the ignorance is yours.

You might not like it, but history and languages are complex subjects. Generally speaking the native speaker should be afforded the right to speak his native tongue as he sees fit. To call the Ukraine, the Ukraine is perfectly valid English, in the same way you'll find many old Bombay families who are English speakers or from the Parsi community in Bombay won't call the city Mumbai when speaking their own language, even when Hindu right-wing thugs threaten them they (justifiably) refuse to change, or you'll find some people in various parts of China legitimately use the name Peking when writing English.

Combined with the right of the native speaker to speak his own language of course there is a desire to not offend and to try to reach compromise. But someone came on here and immediately and unfairly criticised another for saying the Ukraine. I thought it impolite, especially as said person wasn't a native speaker. The English language is hard to pin down, it takes many forms - this is actually a great strength. That there is no central committee who gets to dictate what word we use for this or that is a welcome reality.


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## ethanz (Mar 3, 2022)

melgross said:


> the only significant ally they have now is China, which has publicly begun to step back from the broad cooperative agreements they made right before the war, where Putin, in his meeting with XI, failed to mention his intention to invade. China is rightfully angered. We’ll see what happens.



China apparently knew: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/02/us/politics/russia-ukraine-china.html


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## mjg79 (Mar 3, 2022)

unfocused said:


> @Photo Bunny, I think you are in that situation where the best way to get yourself out of a hole might be to stop digging.
> 
> I do find it interesting that English speakers seem hellbent on anglicizing even simply pronounced place names. For example, why we call Firenze "Florence" and Roma "Rome." Or, for that matter, how did Deutschland become "Germany?" I am sure there is some linguistic history there. And, it does seem like we are getting a bit better about respecting some place names -- Beijing instead of Peking and Mumbai instead of Bombay, for example.



That's an interesting point because it illustrates the complexity of the subject. Bombay as a name is about the same age as Mumbai - neither is more right than the other. Neither as it happens is the first name. Bombay is the English name, Mumbai the Marathi name. The people who lived there for centuries and built the city as a thriving, unusually open and pluralistic city virtually all called it Bombay. Many others in that region who only spoke Marathi moved to the city in the middle of the 20th century and eventually wielded political power through some quite extreme groups - in India they are called the Hindu right wing or Hindu chauvinists - in the west they would simply be called fascists. Some, not all but some, would be perfectly happy to run every non-Marathi person out of the city but they realised, especially given international condemnation of the 92/93 Bombay Riots (a pogrom where hundreds of Muslims were murdered), that they would have to be more subtle. So they decided to force non-Marathi speakers to use the Marathi name even when speaking the multitude of languages one finds in Bombay. My grandparents came from the city, it was a wonderful place, they loved it and insisted on being buried there after years living in the west, one couldn't find people more devoted to the "mother of cities" as Kipling called her, and they always called it Bombay when speaking English or Gujarati.

As for Peking and Beijing - both are just different ways of expressing the same name in English. The British first encountered the language from the south of China where Peking made more sense. Following the conquest of the country by the Communists - the people who went on to quite literally be the most murderous group in the entire history of humanity - Beijing became more popular because said Communists had their main power base in the north and wished to stamp their authority over the country, right down to the pronunciation of words by non-Chinese people.

I go into such detail just to show it really isn't a question of "getting better" respecting names or that the "nice side" demand this or that change. Sometimes it's brute power or political intrigue - hence the rather pointless debate going on in this very forum, there isn't always going to be a right and wrong. If you spend any time in India you'll find many places have several different names - an English name, Hindi name, a local name, a nickname, the official name, the name whichever political group in power uses etc etc - it can be rather mystifying for a non-Indian. To call Bombay by it's Marathi name would be roughly equivalent to Le Pen winning the election in France and renaming Marseilles because she didn't like it having a Greek name. Frankly I would ignore such a change, at least unless it got established over a prolonged period and maybe represented a long-term and organic change, eg France becoming fascist, in the same way one must now really call Constantinople by the name Istanbul - to stick to Constantinople is several centuries and an entire civilisation out of date! The modern fad though of changing the language at political behest strikes me as being as unwelcome as needless intransigence.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 3, 2022)

mjg79 said:


> Gosh, what an unpleasant diatribe. Your immediate resort to personal insult is very telling - it's as sure a measure as one will ever find that someone has no valid argument. Suffice it to say that when it comes to both the subject of the history of that part of the world and certainly when it comes to linguistics, the ignorance is yours.
> 
> You might not like it, but history and languages are complex subjects. Generally speaking the native speaker should be afforded the right to speak his native tongue as he sees fit. To call the Ukraine, the Ukraine is perfectly valid English, in the same way you'll find many old Bombay families who are English speakers or from the Parsi community in Bombay won't call the city Mumbai when speaking their own language, even when Hindu right-wing thugs threaten them they (justifiably) refuse to change, or you'll find some people in various parts of China legitimately use the name Peking when writing English.
> 
> Combined with the right of the native speaker to speak his own language of course there is a desire to not offend and to try to reach compromise. But someone came on here and immediately and unfairly criticised another for saying the Ukraine. I thought it impolite, especially as said person wasn't a native speaker. The English language is hard to pin down, it takes many forms - this is actually a great strength. That there is no central committee who gets to dictate what word we use for this or that is a welcome reality.


Look, this isn't difficult and I'm sorry you seem to have trouble understanding. The government of Ukraine requested that their country be referred to as Ukraine, not The Ukraine. Yes, the person who made reference to the Ukraine was not a native English speaker, and an apology was made by the member who made that assumption. That's not the problem. The problem is you and others excusing the improper reference with the justification that it it is 'very normal' and that 'lots of people say it'. History is replete with examples of such justifications. Segregation, enslavement and genocide were considered 'normal' by many.

If an individual expresses a preference for others to use a particular personal pronoun, someone who chooses to use a different pronoun to refer to that individual is being disrespectful. Same goes for Ukraine.


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## mjg79 (Mar 3, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Look, this isn't difficult and I'm sorry you seem to have trouble understanding. The government of Ukraine requested that their country be referred to as Ukraine, not The Ukraine. Yes, the person who made reference to the Ukraine was not a native English speaker, and an apology was made by the member who made that assumption. That's not the problem. The problem is you and others excusing the improper reference with the justification that it it is 'very normal' and that 'lots of people say it'. History is replete with examples of such justifications. Segregation, enslavement and genocide were considered 'normal' by many.



Gosh, still more insults. Now I am accused of in some way being connected with the justification of slavery! I believe that's referred to as jumping the shark! Moreover that's a gross insult as it happens, half my ancestors came from India, on tracing my family history I found many who died in famines in late 19th century India. I don't need any lectures or insults from you.

I mean this sincerely, I hope you find some peace in life, I've seen you insult many people on here before and it's so needless. I didn't address you, you went out of your way to insult me - a stranger on the internet. It's just not worth it for a happy life. I haven't insulted you.

And just for the record - you are not "on the nice side" of history in demanding state control of language. Shiv Sena, Stalin, Chinese Communists etc all did the same - now I am not going to lower myself to your level and try to smear you as being on their side or responsible for the horrors of many authoritarian regimes but to speak frankly you are very ignorant of history and I would ask you to stop insulting me. If you wish to call the Ukraine simply Ukraine, that's fine, be happy. In English it was virtually always called the Ukraine until recently and it's no fault to continue that use today: the Ukrainian government, indeed no government, can control language.

Languages are complex and living things. The fact "lots of people say it" is very much what keeps a language alive and is the best test of it.


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## AlanF (Mar 3, 2022)

unfocused said:


> @Photo Bunny, I think you are in that situation where the best way to get yourself out of a hole might be to stop digging.
> 
> I do find it interesting that English speakers seem hellbent on anglicizing even simply pronounced place names. For example, why we call Firenze "Florence" and Roma "Rome." Or, for that matter, how did Deutschland become "Germany?" I am sure there is some linguistic history there. And, it does seem like we are getting a bit better about respecting some place names -- Beijing instead of Peking and Mumbai instead of Bombay, for example.


A bunny likes being in hole and burrowing deeper. You learn so much from wildlife photography.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 3, 2022)

mjg79 said:


> Gosh, still more insults. Now I am accused of in some way being connected with the justification of slavery! I believe that's referred to as jumping the shark! Moreover that's a gross insult as it happens, half my ancestors came from India, on tracing my family history I found many who died in famines in late 19th century India. I don't need any lectures or insults from you.
> 
> I mean this sincerely, I hope you find some peace in life, I've seen you insult many people on here before and it's so needless. I didn't address you, you went out of your way to insult me - a stranger on the internet. It's just not worth it for a happy life. I haven't insulted you.
> 
> ...


That whooshing sound is the point flying over your head. Conflate much? You refer to jumping the shark then suggest that I am, "Demanding state control of language?" Lol.

This is really simple. You are arguing that it's acceptable to refer to Ukraine using language that the government of that country requested not be used, and your rationale is that 'everyone does it'. You are wrong. The end.


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## Jethro (Mar 3, 2022)

mjg79 said:


> In English it was virtually always called the Ukraine until recently and it's no fault to continue that use today: the Ukrainian government, indeed no government, can control language.
> 
> Languages are complex and living things. The fact "lots of people say it" is very much what keeps a language alive and is the best test of it.


Few things boil my blood more than infantile resorts to 'freedom of speech' or such nebulous concepts. Everything exists in the context of the real world. In that real world, Ukraine gained independence from the former soviet union in 1991. It had been referred to as 'THE Ukraine' within the soviet union as part of (linguistically) the effort to deny it any independent existence or statehood. If it is forced back into Russia after the current invasion, Putin will probably push to refer to it officially as 'THE Ukraine' again. The words are important because they represent independent identity on the one hand, versus subjugated territory on the other.

But frankly this has been explained to you several times in this thread, and if you want to continue to deny even that shred of linguistic support to a nation currently under existential threat, then ... sleep well.


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## northlarch (Mar 3, 2022)

Come on, guys. And you wonder why every site bans talking about politics. For some reason it brings out the worst in folks. Would be nice to have a simple exchange of ideas and let the conversation flow off topic without insults and childish back and forth. You ruin it for the rest of us and hijacked the thread, as well.


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## Jethro (Mar 3, 2022)

northlarch said:


> Come on, guys. And you wonder why every site bans talking about politics. For some reason it brings out the worst in folks. Would be nice to have a simple exchange of ideas and let the conversation flow off topic without insults and childish back and forth. You ruin it for the rest of us and hijacked the thread, as well.


Right, so it's fine to 'flow off topic', but not to challenge egregious errors that then come up? There was an early exchange about the use of words, which was conducted (and resolved) amicably. Others then wanted to defend the indefensible. Well, guess what, things are referred to as 'indefensible' for a reason. 

What did you, by the way, think the thread was about, other than the loss (temporarily or otherwise) of access to a site which has previously provided useful info on Canon products, as a direct result of current events in Ukraine?


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

unfocused said:


> @Photo Bunny, I think you are in that situation where the best way to get yourself out of a hole might be to stop digging.
> 
> I do find it interesting that English speakers seem hellbent on anglicizing even simply pronounced place names. For example, why we call Firenze "Florence" and Roma "Rome." Or, for that matter, how did Deutschland become "Germany?" I am sure there is some linguistic history there. And, it does seem like we are getting a bit better about respecting some place names -- Beijing instead of Peking and Mumbai instead of Bombay, for example.


I am rather enjoying the debate, though thanks for the suggestion.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 3, 2022)

AlanF said:


> A bunny likes being in hole and burrowing deeper. You learn so much from wildlife photography.


Speaking of bunnies I finally found the village burrows.


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## northlarch (Mar 3, 2022)

Jethro said:


> Right, so it's fine to 'flow off topic', but not to challenge egregious errors that then come up? There was an early exchange about the use of words, which was conducted (and resolved) amicably. Others then wanted to defend the indefensible. Well, guess what, things are referred to as 'indefensible' for a reason.
> 
> What did you, by the way, think the thread was about, other than the loss (temporarily or otherwise) of access to a site which has previously provided useful info on Canon products, as a direct result of current events in Ukraine?


Not sure what you’re going on about but I’m speaking specifically to the name calling and childish insults. I contributed my own political comment earlier on and that’s fair game to me and part of the discussion. Personally I’d like to be able to digress into politics on occasion when they impact my hobbies, but my point was that if every time a discussion like that occurs and the insults and childishness start to dominate, then inevitably the mods ban the conversation and it ruins discussion for everyone.


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## takesome1 (Mar 4, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> The problem is you and others excusing the improper reference with the justification that it it is 'very normal' and that 'lots of people say it'. History is replete with examples of such justifications. Segregation, enslavement and genocide were considered 'normal' by many.


Many "Americans" find it offensive to be referred to as Yanks, I wonder how that relates to Segregation and Enslavement.

Semantic debates are often on this site, but todays debate about the word "the" and its political implications is a bit extreme.


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## Jethro (Mar 4, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> Semantic debates are often on this site, but todays debate about the word "the" and its political implications is a bit extreme.


I genuinely don't want to keep this going, because it becomes counter-productive. But ...

The distinction between 'Ukraine' and 'The Ukraine' is not semantic. As stated earlier, it is the distinction between the usage of an aggressor (Russia) who characterises 'The Ukraine' as a part of greater Russia (a little as someone might refer to 'the Western countryside') and the Ukrainian people, who consider their country a separate and distinct entity, not part of a greater pan-slavic Russia. Words are important when they represent something - and that is what these words (very clearly) represent. It is what Ukrainians believe, and at this historical juncture, it is the height of disrespect not to at least acknowledge that fact.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 4, 2022)

I agree with you,@Jethro.

It’s unfortunate that @mjg79 believes that since she and others use ‘The Ukraine’ to refer to Ukraine, it is acceptable for her and others to continue to do so. It’s a bit ironic that @takesome1 thinks a debate over ‘the’ in the name of a country is extreme but she felt a debate over pronunciation of the name of a country was reasonable for her to engage in.

The internet being what it is, it’s unlikely that diwcussion here will change their attitudes.


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## takesome1 (Mar 4, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I agree with you,@Jethro.
> 
> It’s unfortunate that @mjg79 believes that since she and others use ‘The Ukraine’ to refer to Ukraine, it is acceptable for her and others to continue to do so. It’s a bit ironic that @takesome1 thinks a debate over ‘the’ in the name of a country is extreme but she felt a debate over pronunciation of the name of a country was reasonable for her to engage in.
> 
> The internet being what it is, it’s unlikely that diwcussion here will change their attitudes.


Maybe ironic, but a silly debate can be entertaining. I doubt anyone in harms way tonight in Ukraine is taking offense. Being safe is more important. My Japanese daughter in law has never taken exception to any of us referring to Japan as "Japan".

Also, I believe you just assigned me a gender. Are you sure on that one, some would take offense if you missed the mark. Would it be similar and wrong if I were to believe you were a "she" based on you possibly having an educational background similar to Blossom's. This is not an insult either, she is a very intelligent lady.


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## takesome1 (Mar 4, 2022)

Jethro said:


> I genuinely don't want to keep this going, because it becomes counter-productive. But ...
> 
> The distinction between 'Ukraine' and 'The Ukraine' is not semantic. As stated earlier, it is the distinction between the usage of an aggressor (Russia) who characterises 'The Ukraine' as a part of greater Russia (a little as someone might refer to 'the Western countryside') and the Ukrainian people, who consider their country a separate and distinct entity, not part of a greater pan-slavic Russia. Words are important when they represent something - and that is what these words (very clearly) represent. It is what Ukrainians believe, and at this historical juncture, it is the height of disrespect not to at least acknowledge that fact.



For Americans and those darn Yanks that live here, we watch our news sources and they often say it with a "The". Make fun of their ignorance if you will but those same people will push to do what is right. The majority of the people know little about what you just described.

We hear from our news sources a certain story, but the Russian news sources have a different view.

We hear stories of bombing schools and daycares. The Russians put out stories that their is genocide in parts of Ukraine. People should be weeding through the news story to find out what is really going on. Is our press truthful? Is theirs? Most importantly should we be speaking out to our government that we should do more. I know if I were in their position, I would be saying send me help, call us what ever you want but send "The" help.

Back to the original article, it is about a denial of service.
I do hope it is our boys doing their job, and not at just one agency.








United States Cyber Command - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Edit: OPPS/ after I posted this I noticed I did the same thing as @neuroanatomist, I assigned Gender. I should have said our boys, girls and all the others.


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## Jethro (Mar 4, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> For Americans and those darn Yanks that live here, we watch our news sources and they often say it with a "The". Make fun of their ignorance if you will but those same people will push to do what is right. The majority of the people know little about what you just described.
> 
> We hear from our news sources a certain story, but the Russian news sources have a different view.


Nothing in my posts made fun of 'Yanks' or their 'ignorance'. I was replying to you and telling you the context of something. So, by definition, you're no longer ignorant. 

If you want to go into full 'fake news' mode, good on you. If you want to draw an equivalence between what you're (presumably) seeing on the news every night (and tonight will include the Russians shelling the largest nuclear power station in Europe), and propaganda around Ukrainian fascists committing genocide in the breakaway regions of the country (a claim discredited by every reputable source since it came up years ago), then again: good on you. I've got no further interest in communicating with you.


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## LogicExtremist (Mar 4, 2022)

Photo Bunny said:


> The Ukraine comes from the more literal translation being The border lands. Like how we call Nipol, Japan. I am unsure why we don't just call each country by their own defined name, it seems daft each language has their own word for another nation.


That would be nice, but can't see it happening. Probably because we all speak different languages that may have different sounds that don't exist in others, or complex tones that change the ,meanings of words when used incorrectly. I'm sure many in the anglo-centric US would have trouble pronouncing Zhōngguó which means 'Middle Kingdom' in Mandarin and is the Chinese name for China. Tht;s the pinyin spelling, which is not phonetic, it's not pronounced like it's read. Just one example of many...


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## LogicExtremist (Mar 4, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> What the heck are you talking about?


I believe the poster is referring to what is commonly referred to as US interventionist foreign policy, been reported widely in the nightly news over many decades, and complained about by other nations for just as long lol!


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## LogicExtremist (Mar 4, 2022)

Just when you thought the Sony-Canon Fanboy Wars that have been running for a decade were divisive, there's nothing like a bit of politics to reignite the primal tribalism buried deep within the human psyche. It subtly reminds us that despite all our technological advances, and time spent arguing about which $6K camera body is the best, were still just primitive primate savages, albeit with fancy machines. Human history keeps repeating, regrettably we haven't evolved that much.


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## unfocused (Mar 4, 2022)

Jethro said:


> ...The distinction between 'Ukraine' and 'The Ukraine' is not semantic. As stated earlier, it is the distinction between the usage of an aggressor (Russia) who characterizes 'The Ukraine' as a part of greater Russia (a little as someone might refer to 'the Western countryside') and the Ukrainian people, who consider their country a separate and distinct entity, not part of a greater pan-slavic Russia. Words are important when they represent something - and that is what these words (very clearly) represent. It is what Ukrainians believe, and at this historical juncture, it is the height of disrespect not to at least acknowledge that fact.



Well stated. There is a war going on that, at its heart, is rooted in these "semantics." Within the word "the" lies the difference between an independent nation and a region subjigated by a more powerful and aggressive neighbor.


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## LogicExtremist (Mar 4, 2022)

Jethro said:


> Right, so it's fine to 'flow off topic', but not to challenge egregious errors that then come up? There was an early exchange about the use of words, which was conducted (and resolved) amicably. Others then wanted to defend the indefensible. Well, guess what, things are referred to as 'indefensible' for a reason.
> 
> What did you, by the way, think the thread was about, other than the loss (temporarily or otherwise) of access to a site which has previously provided useful info on Canon products, as a direct result of current events in Ukraine?


The problem with political discussions is that everyone thinks they're right and everyone else is wrong, often missing the subtleties and complexity in between two black and white points of view. The result is that it just ends up becoming a religious war essentially, with each side having unshakeable faith in their 'tribe', while being certain that the 'other' is wrong or worse. 

Despite the best intentions to stay reasonable and logical, when thinking creeps into the archetypal framework of "us" and "them" triggers, a primal, emotive , and innate biological response takes over. The need for humans to assume group identities has risen from a very real evolutionary need, and it's hard-wired in our brains.

The neural wiring for this tribal behaviors that makes the distinction between "us" and "them" is in the prefrontal cortex, which subconsciously makes this decision within 0.17 seconds. When making inferences about the in-group ("us"), the ventromedial PFC becomes active, whereas in dealing with people from the out-group ("them"), the dorsomedial PFC became active, so we judge people we don't know differently depending on them being part of our tribe or not.

That, in a nutshell, is why they don't allow discussions about politics or religion in most forums.

Oh, and the topic, yes, it _was _(past tense) about the loss of access to a site which served as a source of useful information on Canon products, due to the conflicts in Ukraine. A handy reminder that a conflict in this part of the world at this time will have far reaching affects for people worldwide, in many areas of their lives, beyond cool camera and lens patent information, such as the cost of food and fuel, depending on where you live. We've seen the supply systems in many countries get shaken by COVID, and the resultant shortages that occurred. The semiconductor shortage is still affecting many industries, including that of photography. There are many factors that can affect the supply of expensive play toys or vital tools of the trade, whichever the case may be, to affluent first-world nations, we've seen one, a global pandemic, and soon we may be seeing a second, an ongoing war...


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## AlanF (Mar 4, 2022)

LogicExtremist said:


> The problem with political discussions is that everyone thinks they're right and everyone else is wrong, often missing the subtleties and complexity in between two black and white points of view. The result is that it just ends up becoming a religious war essentially, with each side having unshakeable faith in their 'tribe', while being certain that the 'other' is wrong or worse...


Not *everyone* thinks they're right and everyone else is wrong. Extremists take that view but not everyone. There are even people in this forum who shoot Sony.


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## dtaylor (Mar 4, 2022)

Jethro said:


> If you want to go into full 'fake news' mode, good on you. If you want to draw an equivalence between what you're (presumably) seeing on the news every night (and tonight will include the Russians shelling the largest nuclear power station in Europe), and propaganda around Ukrainian fascists committing genocide in the breakaway regions of the country (a claim discredited by every reputable source since it came up years ago),


Genocide? No. Attacks on innocent civilians which have resulted in thousands of deaths? Yes, and with overwhelming, undeniable evidence recognized by reputable sources including the United Nations. Equivalent to what Russia is doing now? No, of course not. But let's be brutally honest here: the current Ukrainian government, which came about not via election but by a revolution which eastern Ukraine did not support, gambled that it could use military violence against ethnic *Russians* and *Russia* would sit by and do nothing, forever. It also gambled that it could court NATO membership and Russia would do nothing when Russia has maintained, since the breakup of the Soviet Union, that NATO membership of former states of the Soviet Union *was a red line.* Not an Obama red line. An *actual* red line which *would* trigger a war.

So while I do not approve of what Russia is doing, and I am deeply saddened by the loss of life and the suffering in Ukraine, I refuse to pretend that this came out of no where. The seeds of this war were sown 8 years ago. And for 8 years nobody in power in the U.S. or Europe treated the situation as a serious one deserving an adult response and a resolution all sides could live with. At best our leaders made flippant, childish tweets. At worst they actually schemed hoping to gain something while gambling with peace, security, and both Ukrainian and Russian lives in the region. Everyone deserves to be thrown under the bus on this one, not just Putin. Obama, Trump, Biden, both presidents of the Euromaidan government, and a few leaders of western European states as well. A serious statesman would have seen the danger and defused it from a mile away. Or perhaps I should say from 8 years away. But the world has a potentially lethal shortage of serious, adult statesmen to serve as leaders.


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## LogicExtremist (Mar 4, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Not *everyone* thinks they're right and everyone else is wrong. Extremists take that view but not everyone. There are even people in this forum who shoot Sony.


I'm one of them (person who also shoots Sony)! I have two Canon camera bodies, and one Sony, though the latter is a compact ZV-1, does that still count?


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## LogicExtremist (Mar 4, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> Genocide? No. Attacks on innocent civilians which have resulted in thousands of deaths? Yes, and with overwhelming, undeniable evidence recognized by reputable sources including the United Nations. Equivalent to what Russia is doing now? No, of course not. But let's be brutally honest here: the current Ukrainian government, which came about not via election but by a revolution which eastern Ukraine did not support, gambled that it could use military violence against ethnic *Russians* and *Russia* would sit by and do nothing, forever. It also gambled that it could court NATO membership and Russia would do nothing when Russia has maintained, since the breakup of the Soviet Union, that NATO membership of former states of the Soviet Union *was a red line.* Not an Obama red line. An *actual* red line which *would* trigger a war.
> 
> So while I do not approve of what Russia is doing, and I am deeply saddened by the loss of life and the suffering in Ukraine, I refuse to pretend that this came out of no where. The seeds of this war were sown 8 years ago. And for 8 years nobody in power in the U.S. or Europe treated the situation as a serious one deserving an adult response and a resolution all sides could live with. At best our leaders made flippant, childish tweets. At worst they actually schemed hoping to gain something while gambling with peace, security, and both Ukrainian and Russian lives in the region. Everyone deserves to be thrown under the bus on this one, not just Putin. Obama, Trump, Biden, both presidents of the Euromaidan government, and a few leaders of western European states as well. A serious statesman would have seen the danger and defused it from a mile away. Or perhaps I should say from 8 years away. But the world has a potentially lethal shortage of serious, adult statesmen to serve as leaders.


Minor correction, the seeds of this conflict were sown a very long time ago, over a century ago. For anyone interested in the long and tangled history of these two nations and their ongoing conflicts, as well as the basis for their disagreements, here's an educational article that provides some historical explanations and gives factual context- https://www.historytoday.com/archive/history-matters/ukraine-and-russias-history-wars


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## LogicExtremist (Mar 4, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> So you agree to "the USA and UK go over to liberate some people of their oil?" What case specifically are you referring to? To meet you halfway I'd agree that's an accurate summary of Mossadegh's overthrow, but that was a VERY long time ago, and it sounds like bunnyboy is referring to something newer and more common?


I don't really care for political debates, I'm more interested in actual history, and philosophy. What I'll say is that the US has a long history of foreign intervention, for reasons political or economic. It's well know that it's the standard approach to US foreign policy, no secrets there. There's even a long and detailed entry on the topic titled "Foreign interventions by the United States" in Wikipedia, the worthless, crowd-sourced opinion site, and it's not a controversial or contested page, so that's saying something. 

Here's a link to a neutral interview with two US historians discussing the matter for more info - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/americas-history-of-intervention-in-foreign-nations

Perhaps other cultures don't really want a foreign power to impose their values, ideals and beliefs onto them. Now that's a thought. As the anthropologist Wade Davis once stated “_These other cultures are not failed attempts to be us; they are unique manifestations of the spirit—other options, other visions of life itself_.”

The history of empires is filled with their conquests, invasions, victories, defeats and often, atrocities. They all have one thing in common, they all rise, and eventually fall, just like every other great empire before them. If their intentions are self serving and less than honorable, then history will judge them accordingly. Looks like we're in the midst of the decline of one empire and the rise of another, and interesting historical time.


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## LogicExtremist (Mar 4, 2022)

Has everyone seen the "politics make you stupid" study, there's a writeup here - https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/09/new-study-politics-makes-you-innumerate/ and also here https://www.huffpost.com/entry/politics-bad-math-study_n_4060350

The original research paper can be found here - https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2319992

Link to full document in PDF form - https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery.cfm/SSRN_ID2861922_code45442.pdf?abstractid=2319992&mirid=1

Here's another related but more recent research paper, "At Least Bias Is Bipartisan: A Meta-Analytic Comparison of Partisan Bias in Liberals and Conservatives" - https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2952510

Enjoy!


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 4, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Not *everyone* thinks they're right and everyone else is wrong. Extremists take that view but not everyone. There are even people in this forum who shoot Sony.


Go to someone that still believes in some kind of religion and try to get them to understand Santa doesn't exist. It triggers the same mechanisms in the brain that cause people to distrust the people in the village across the river because they are surely different.


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## Kit. (Mar 4, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> But let's be brutally honest here: the current Ukrainian government, which came about not via election but by a revolution


You say that you want to be "brutally honest", and then tell an outright lie. Why?


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## takesome1 (Mar 4, 2022)

Jethro said:


> Nothing in my posts made fun of 'Yanks' or their 'ignorance'. I was replying to you and telling you the context of something. So, by definition, you're no longer ignorant.


I am no longer ignorant to your opinion and what you believe. I am still ignorant to whether what you stated is correct, incorrect or misguided.

So a little light reading:








Name of Ukraine - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





I am sure many Americans and others around the world didn't get this memo, and if they did they didn't really care:

_"In 1993, the Ukrainian government explicitly requested that, in linguistic agreement with countries and not regions,[36] the Russian preposition в be used instead of на,[37] and in 2012, the Ukrainian embassy in London further stated that it is politically and grammatically incorrect to use a definite article with Ukraine.[1] Use of Ukraine without the definite article has since become commonplace in journalism and diplomacy (examples are the style guides of The Guardian[38] and The Times[39])."_


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## takesome1 (Mar 4, 2022)

LogicExtremist said:


> Has everyone seen the "politics make you stupid" study, there's a writeup here - https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/09/new-study-politics-makes-you-innumerate/ and also here https://www.huffpost.com/entry/politics-bad-math-study_n_4060350


I am so sorry to say this, but when you post as link from huffpost you loose all credibility. I couldn't bring myself to click any of those links.


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## SteveC (Mar 4, 2022)

Photo Bunny said:


> If taught in school I am sure most would pick it up in the same way you learn how to spell and pronounce the English names.



Do you expect grade schoolers to be taught how the Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Georgians, etc., etc., for hundreds of languages, pronounce consonants that are _not used in the English language at all?_ And if so do you expect their teachers to know them well enough to teach them?

Being able to make foreign consonant sounds is a very specific skill and even doctors of linguistics get it wrong sometimes.


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## SteveC (Mar 4, 2022)

AlanF said:


> There are even people in this forum who shoot Sony.


OK, I am very much anti S*ny, but even I don't want them drag them into the street and shoot them,

...

Oh, you mean the _other_ kind of shooting.


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## SteveC (Mar 4, 2022)

As a matter of interesting trivia, in reference to Beijing vs. Peking, Beijing is the Pinyin spelling; essentially the official schema to write Chinese sounds with the Latin alphabet (a laudable objective). However a lot of the choices are counter-intuitive from our point of view (more intuitive from theirs; again they hear differently because they are used to a different set of sounds). The "B" in Pinyin refers to an unaspirated P (as in "spot"). So it's actually not correct to pronounce it "bay-jing." (Similarly the J doesn't sound like the sound that starts "jump," but I'm going to focus on the B.) However, _to their ears_, the English B sound sounds more like an unaspirated P, than does the p in, say "pot" (which we aspirate). So if we were to actually try to pronounce it "Pay-ching" we'd most likely aspirate the P in Pay, and sound horribly wrong to a native Mandarin speaker; from his point of view we'd be better off saying Bay (because we never aspirate a B sound, and they don't give a rat's ass about whether the labial stop is voiced or not, just like we don't care about aspirating or not aspirating Ps). But it sounds more like their pronunciation to us to say "Pay." That's because the difference between an aspirated and unaspirated P is like night and day to them (while we don't notice), while the difference between B and unaspirated P to them is insignificant, but like night and day to us.

This is what I'm trying to get at when I talk about how people growing up speaking a different language literally do not hear things the same way we do; when we try to ape their pronunciations we'll simply butcher it because we _do not even* hear*_ distinctions that to them are vital.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 4, 2022)

SteveC said:


> Do you expect grade schoolers to be taught how the Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Georgians, etc., etc., for hundreds of languages, pronounce consonants that are _not used in the English language at all?_ And if so do you expect their teachers to know them well enough to teach them?
> 
> Being able to make foreign consonant sounds is a very specific skill and even doctors of linguistics get it wrong sometimes.


I wouldn’t have suggested it if I didn’t think children were capable. Multi lingual children is the norm and not the exception in many countries. I don’t have so little faith that teachers couldn’t cover this topic as well as any other, in my lifetime we went from learning imperial measurement and weight to hybrid metric and metric by the same teachers. Now kids are given a iPad in primary school so they can learn from voice clips, it’s not the 1980s anymore.


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## SteveC (Mar 4, 2022)

Photo Bunny said:


> I wouldn’t have suggested it if I didn’t think children were capable. Multi lingual children is the norm and not the exception in many countries. I don’t have so little faith that teachers couldn’t cover this topic as well as any other, in my lifetime we went from learning imperial measurement and weight to hybrid metric and metric by the same teachers. Now kids are given a iPad in primary school so they can learn from voice clips, it’s not the 1980s anymore.



Children can and do learn whatever sounds they are exposed to.

Their teachers mostly _can't_. It's one of those things you lose as you grow older; and it's a genuine struggle to pick up.

Another example, many of the languages of India have four different, distinct sounds we English-speakers approximate as "T." They are, unaspirated t, aspirated t, unaspirated retroflex t, and aspirated retroflex t.

I heard someone demonstrate all four in sequence, and couldn't even hear the difference between them, at least not reliably enough that if they were in the middle of a word, I'd know which one it was. (And, mind you, I *do* know how to _make_ the sounds, because it's a bit of a hobby of mine. But they sound basically the same to me, or perhaps at most like someone talking with their mouth full.) Now imagine trying to distinguish between two words of a foreign language, whose sole difference is one has an unaspirated t, and the other has an unaspirated retroflex t. Even if you know (from book learning) there is a difference, you might not be able to tell the difference hearing it. And if you repeat the word back to them and don't know you're supposed to retroflex that t and FGS don't aspirate it, you're babbling nonsense to them.

We have far too many teachers who are barely proficient enough in what they teach, now, to teach at whatever grade level they're teaching at. Now they're going to become experts at forming and distinguishing all of the sounds in the International Phonetic Alphabet (which has over a hundred symbols and _still_ isn't adequate to the task) so they can teach kids to say Zhongguo the way a Mandarin speaker would? (And I haven't even _mentioned_ the tones. Yet.) OK, so after the kids are properly trained--including the teacher being able to tell they aren't pronouncing the sound right, when the teacher didn't know the difference two weeks ago--the kids will then be expected to remember how to form those particular sounds--which they have no other use for--into adulthood. No, more likely they'll forget them, just like people forget entire languages they don't use.


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## dtaylor (Mar 4, 2022)

Kit. said:


> You say that you want to be "brutally honest", and then tell an outright lie. Why?


You reply when you have *zero knowledge* of recent history in the region. Why?









Euromaidan - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org













Revolution of Dignity - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## LogicExtremist (Mar 4, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> I am so sorry to say this, but when you post as link from huffpost you loose all credibility. I couldn't bring myself to click any of those links.


I wouldn't quote that media source for facts! That's just the dumbed-down summary in the Huffpost for anyone who can't be bothered reading the original research paper, which I linked to. Despite any misgivings about the media summary, they do a reasonably good job conveying the findings of the paper in this case.


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## AlanF (Mar 4, 2022)

SteveC said:


> As a matter of interesting trivia, in reference to Beijing vs. Peking, Beijing is the Pinyin spelling; essentially the official schema to write Chinese sounds with the Latin alphabet (a laudable objective). However a lot of the choices are counter-intuitive from our point of view (more intuitive from theirs; again they hear differently because they are used to a different set of sounds). The "B" in Pinyin refers to an unaspirated P (as in "spot"). So it's actually not correct to pronounce it "bay-jing." (Similarly the J doesn't sound like the sound that starts "jump," but I'm going to focus on the B.) However, _to their ears_, the English B sound sounds more like an unaspirated P, than does the p in, say "pot" (which we aspirate). So if we were to actually try to pronounce it "Pay-ching" we'd most likely aspirate the P in Pay, and sound horribly wrong to a native Mandarin speaker; from his point of view we'd be better off saying Bay (because we never aspirate a B sound, and they don't give a rat's ass about whether the labial stop is voiced or not, just like we don't care about aspirating or not aspirating Ps). But it sounds more like their pronunciation to us to say "Pay." That's because the difference between an aspirated and unaspirated P is like night and day to them (while we don't notice), while the difference between B and unaspirated P to them is insignificant, but like night and day to us.
> 
> This is what I'm trying to get at when I talk about how people growing up speaking a different language literally do not hear things the same way we do; when we try to ape their pronunciations we'll simply butcher it because we _do not even* hear*_ distinctions that to them are vital.


The J in Beijing is not exactly the same as pronounced in Jingle, but it’s much closer to that than the zh sound that you so often hear. Right?


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## Jethro (Mar 5, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> I am no longer ignorant to your opinion and what you believe. I am still ignorant to whether what you stated is correct, incorrect or misguided.
> 
> So a little light reading:
> 
> ...


OK, so you just (re-)proved my point. Thanks, I think ... I won't hold my breath for the apology.

I personally couldn't give a flying fornication whether 'many Americans' have ever heard of it, let alone whether they care. The point, as has been reiterated numerous times, is that this usage is now a real issue, as the question of whether Ukraine is a sovereign country, or a mere region of Russia about to be reintegrated, is coming to a crux.


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## SteveC (Mar 5, 2022)

AlanF said:


> The J in Beijing is not exactly the same as pronounced in Jingle, but it’s much closer to that than the zh sound that you so often hear. Right?



Probably. At least, it's a stop or an affricate, rather than a fricative. I just looked it up; it would sound to me a lot like "ch". It's a t+German ch--not the one in Bach but the one in ich. I would guess it would strike you as a ch prounounced with an oddly high-pitched hissing sound. It shouldn't be voiced like our J. (Again, Chinese has a different attitude towards voiced consonants; they might occur accidentally in the same way we accidentally aspirate p's in some places. No letter in Chinese is _routinely_ voiced other than m and n.)

This is yet another quirk of (some) English speakers. They see an unfamiliar foreign word with a j in it and assume it must be a zh sound. As if all foreign languages were French. Take, for instance 'Azerbaijan.' Nope, that's really a j-as-in-jump, not a j-as-in-bonjour. The Russians do not have a j-for-jump letter in their language but they fake it with d + zh (дж), which is actually what a j is in reality.

Now, you can listen to this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Zh-Beijing.ogg and decide what you think the most sensible English spelling is...I get Peiching. But I know that's not what it actually is, because that ch isn't really a ch.


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## LogicExtremist (Mar 5, 2022)

SteveC said:


> Probably. At least, it's a stop or an affricate, rather than a fricative. I just looked it up; it would sound to me a lot like "ch". It's a t+German ch--not the one in Bach but the one in ich. I would guess it would strike you as a ch prounounced with an oddly high-pitched hissing sound. It shouldn't be voiced like our J. (Again, Chinese has a different attitude towards voiced consonants; they might occur accidentally in the same way we accidentally aspirate p's in some places. No letter in Chinese is _routinely_ voiced other than m and n.)
> 
> This is yet another quirk of (some) English speakers. They see an unfamiliar foreign word with a j in it and assume it must be a zh sound. As if all foreign languages were French. Take, for instance 'Azerbaijan.' Nope, that's really a j-as-in-jump, not a j-as-in-bonjour. The Russians do not have a j-for-jump letter in their language but they fake it with d + zh (дж), which is actually what a j is in reality.
> 
> Now, you can listen to this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Zh-Beijing.ogg and decide what you think the most sensible English spelling is...I get Peiching. But I know that's not what it actually is, because that ch isn't really a ch.


In pinyin, the letter J is pronounced like 'jee' in the word 'jeep", with the flat of the tongue in the middle of your mouth, with the mouth also fairly wide.
In the name Bĕijīng, the falling-rising tone of the 'e' and the flat (long and level) tone on the second 'i' are what many miss, mispronouncing it as BAY-ZHING.


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## takesome1 (Mar 5, 2022)

Jethro said:


> OK, so you just (re-)proved my point. Thanks, I think ... I won't hold my breath for the apology.
> 
> I personally couldn't give a flying fornication whether 'many Americans' have ever heard of it, let alone whether they care. The point, as has been reiterated numerous times, is that this usage is now a real issue, as the question of whether Ukraine is a sovereign country, or a mere region of Russia about to be reintegrated, is coming to a crux.


That is funny. We're you personally insulted by the use of "The Ukraine? Or were you just being petty and looking for something to pick at someone about? I never debated whether it was correct or incorrect to use the word "The". I only debated the pettiness of the attack on those who were using the word.

To answer your last sentence, unless the US President and his allies grow a pair and stand up and do what is right, in a few weeks the government of Ukraine will be calling itself whatever Putin wants it to be called. The history written in Wikipedia changes and the name will change as well.


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## dtaylor (Mar 5, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> To answer your last sentence, unless the US President and his allies grow a pair and stand up and do what is right, in a few weeks the government of Ukraine will be calling itself whatever Putin wants it to be called. The history written in Wikipedia changes and the name will change as well.


This is not a question of "growing a pair." Putin put nukes on the table with his first speech. Russia remains capable of turning western Europe and America into glass parking lots. _Well we got them too!_ won't matter one single bit after everything we know is destroyed. And _Putin won't really do it!_ is not a strategy, it's wishful thinking. The time to prevent this was 8 years ago. 6 years ago. Even one year ago.

You are right that the name doesn't matter. Not one bit. Absent a miracle, Russia will win this. The best we can hope for at this point is that once they've won, Putin will be willing to trade an independent Ukraine for an end to sanctions and written/signed security guarantees. That's wishful thinking too. But it's at least _plausible_ wishful thinking given the array of sanctions against Russia and the realities of their nuclear arsenal.


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## sanj (Mar 5, 2022)

I just finished reading this thread. Must say it was much more fun than threads on 'Dynamic Range' Carry on!


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## takesome1 (Mar 5, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> This is not a question of "growing a pair." Putin put nukes on the table with his first speech. Russia remains capable of turning western Europe and America into glass parking lots. _Well we got them too!_ won't matter one single bit after everything we know is destroyed. And _Putin won't really do it!_ is not a strategy, it's wishful thinking. The time to prevent this was 8 years ago. 6 years ago. Even one year ago.
> 
> You are right that the name doesn't matter. Not one bit. Absent a miracle, Russia will win this. The best we can hope for at this point is that once they've won, Putin will be willing to trade an independent Ukraine for an end to sanctions and written/signed security guarantees. That's wishful thinking too. But it's at least _plausible_ wishful thinking given the array of sanctions against Russia and the realities of their nuclear arsenal.


What I didn't like about Biden's response, just immediately before the invasion.
He said he was going to hit him with sanctions, and were going to be tough about it.

Then he says in the same statement:
_"Let me be clear: These are totally defensive moves on our part. We have no intention of fighting Russia," (cut from a CNN website)_

Biden lost his bargaining power. He was very clear with Putin, he knew the consequences at that point and was willing to accept the sanctions.

The US's position of placing, or not placing troops was completely taken off the table. 
This should have never been known to Putin, regardless of what we truly thought we should do.
Sure the US Citizens would be nervous without that reassurance. But didn't we elect our President to negotiate from the best possible position, sometimes protecting our interest is worth a little stress.

Weak negotiations on our part, and it makes us look weak.

The more we see what is truly going on, public opinion may change Biden's opinion. The show last night in Prime Time should have pulled at a few hearts. (I thought it sad and somewhat offensive last night that during the show one of the sponsors was begging for money for homeless dogs, at the same time we are watching families separated and scattered all over Europe)


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## takesome1 (Mar 5, 2022)

sanj said:


> I just finished reading this thread. Must say it was much more fun than threads on 'Dynamic Range' Carry on!


Unlike the "Dynamic Range" debate where we have Sony and Nikon trolls bashing Canon, I am not sure we have had a true Russian troll bashing the situation.


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## Kit. (Mar 5, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> You reply when you have *zero knowledge* of recent history in the region. Why?


Maybe you should have checked your assumptions before replying?

There have already been *two* presidential elections in Ukraine since Euromaidan.









2019 Ukrainian presidential election - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org












2014 Ukrainian presidential election - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## dtaylor (Mar 5, 2022)

Kit. said:


> Maybe you should have checked your assumptions before replying?
> 
> There have already been *two* presidential elections in Ukraine since Euromaidan.


Seriously?

The Russians in the east rejected the revolution which led to Poroshenko's 'snap election', which means they implicitly rejected the election results. Their subsequent separation and the resulting civil conflict means they didn't recognize or participate in Zelenskyy's election either. It doesn't matter if you, I, or anyone else thinks that they are wrong. They think they are right and they felt so strongly about it they left, *and didn't come back even under threat of violence.*

When that happens you can try to peacefully convince the separatists that they are wrong and should come back. Or you can let them go. Or you can resort to violence. Option 3 is always a rotten option. *But it's especially stupid when the separatists are ethnic Russians living on your border with Russia.* Sticking your head in the sand and saying _but there *was* an election!!!_ is pretty much what led us to this point.

I feel for the Ukrainian people who are now fighting for their country. I feel for Zelenskyy who is courageously standing with his people trying to repel this. _I feel for him even though I think he could have and should have taken steps to prevent this._ And I despise Putin for blowing this situation wide open. Do not think I excuse Putin his evil because of my critiques of the governments of the west and of Ukraine.

But I will not stick my head in the sand. This is a shocking failure across three U.S. presidential administrations, the administrations of multiple European nations, and the last two Ukrainian presidents. No one was an adult in this situation. For 8 years no one considered the hard realities of the situation or the potential consequences of their actions.


----------



## dtaylor (Mar 5, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> What I didn't like about Biden's response, just immediately before the invasion.
> He said he was going to hit him with sanctions, and were going to be tough about it.
> 
> Then he says in the same statement:
> _"Let me be clear: These are totally defensive moves on our part. We have no intention of fighting Russia," (cut from a CNN website)_


I definitely see your point here. And I would be inclined to agree if this situation involved a power _other than_ Russia. I'll be up front that I believe there is a lot of blame which can be placed on Biden in this situation, dating back to the Obama administration. But I can't critique him on this point. There's no way he was willing to go to war with our only nuclear peer over this, nor should he be. Leaving it on the table at the last minute is a bluff that Putin would have called. After that why would Putin believe anything Biden had to say? This only would have made Biden and the U.S. look weaker to Putin and his generals, and to the world.



takesome1 said:


> The US's position of placing, or not placing troops was completely taken off the table.
> This should have never been known to Putin, regardless of what we truly thought we should do.


Again, I would probably agree with you if it was anyone else. Putin knew that was never on the table.



takesome1 said:


> The more we see what is truly going on, public opinion may change Biden's opinion.


I hope to God not. I'm sorry, but the potential death toll and destruction to civilization is staggering. It cannot happen. And I despise any and every politician, any and every member of any western administration, who in any way misled Zelenskyy on this point. If Zelenskyy had known he would be on his own in this he might have taken steps which would have prevented it. Everyone who misled him has blood on their hands.


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## takesome1 (Mar 6, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> I definitely see your point here. And I would be inclined to agree if this situation involved a power _other than_ Russia. I'll be up front that I believe there is a lot of blame which can be placed on Biden in this situation, dating back to the Obama administration. But I can't critique him on this point. There's no way he was willing to go to war with our only nuclear peer over this, nor should he be. Leaving it on the table at the last minute is a bluff that Putin would have called. After that why would Putin believe anything Biden had to say? This only would have made Biden and the U.S. look weaker to Putin and his generals, and to the world.
> 
> 
> Again, I would probably agree with you if it was anyone else. Putin knew that was never on the table.
> ...


I hear what you are saying, and Putin probably believes that Biden never would. He has looked weak on other issues, why would he stand up on this one. But if a a bluff is never played a bluff never works. 

And if Zelensky had known the outcome? 
Perhaps he would have known the Budapest Memorandum was not going to stop Russia and Ukraine would now be a nuclear power again.

_ "but the potential death toll and destruction to civilization is staggering. It cannot happen." _It seems to be the position we have taken. It appears that very little is worth that type of conflict. Putin has said he takes nothing off the table. What non Nato country can Russia now invade without fear of the USA defending that country?


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## dtaylor (Mar 6, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> I hear what you are saying, and Putin probably believes that Biden never would. He has looked weak on other issues, why would he stand up on this one. But if a a bluff is never played a bluff never works.


Fair enough. Neither of us can predict that, and maybe, just maybe, the bluff would have worked and Russia would not have invaded.



takesome1 said:


> And if Zelensky had known the outcome?
> Perhaps he would have known the Budapest Memorandum was not going to stop Russia and Ukraine would now be a nuclear power again.


Well...as a mere citizen I don't want more nations to have nuclear weapons. But if I was the leader of a nation state, a nuclear weapon is the best way to insure that no one ever invades. Ukraine almost certainly regrets giving up their nukes for what is now a worthless piece of paper. I hate to say that, but reality is what it is, not what anyone might wish it to be.



takesome1 said:


> _ "but the potential death toll and destruction to civilization is staggering. It cannot happen." _It seems to be the position we have taken. It appears that very little is worth that type of conflict. Putin has said he takes nothing off the table. What non Nato country can Russia now invade without fear of the USA defending that country?


If they invade more non-NATO states concurrent with, or immediately after, this invasion then they run the very real risk that NATO will decide there is no choice but to go to war. If they do nothing after this and 10 years down the road some other altercation results in a Russian invasion of a single non-NATO state, they'll probably get away with it.

That's been the historical reality though since roughly the end of World War II. After the treaty organizations were formed, NATO states didn't touch Warsaw Pact states and Warsaw Pact states didn't touch NATO states. Otherwise both the U.S. and Russia invaded states without consequence from the other power. I'm not trying to create equivalence here. Some invasions could be morally justified and others not so much. Just pointing out that reality hasn't changed. If Russia decides they have reason to invade a non-NATO state there's not much we're willing to do about it, even if their reasons are nonsense and their actions are evil. This has been true for a long time in both directions.


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## AlanF (Mar 6, 2022)

sanj said:


> I just finished reading this thread. Must say it was much more fun than threads on 'Dynamic Range' Carry on!


I have read this thread too. It is fortunate for humanity that some here spend their time fighting over Dynamic Range rather than being in charge of international politics.


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## takesome1 (Mar 6, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> THAT makes the US look not just strong, but nearly god-like.


Sure Biden did exactly what he said he would do. Russia has the expertise to know what the impact of the action would be. 
"god like" hardly. The conflict will end, Russia's economy will recover. 
I understand your scared of Putin. If you run like a sheep you will be chased by wolves.


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## Ozarker (Mar 7, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> Not to get political. But I take what you supposedly quoted as meaning that the US response is to weak. Budapest Agreement.


He was, I think, referring to the losing and former president. That stable genius. The chosen one. The dolt.


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## takesome1 (Mar 7, 2022)

CanonFanBoy said:


> He was, I think, referring to the losing and former president. That stable genius. The chosen one. The dolt.


A person can only blame the former so long.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 7, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> A person can only blame the former so long.


A person can be blamed for making idiotic statements forever, particularly when there are indelible records of them. That applies equally to presidents and forum posters, and there have been some noteworthy examples in this thread.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 7, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> Also, I believe you just assigned me a gender. Are you sure on that one, some would take offense if you missed the mark. Would it be similar and wrong if I were to believe you were a "she" based on you possibly having an educational background similar to Blossom's. This is not an insult either, she is a very intelligent lady.


Incidentally, to close the loop on this — yes, I did. It was intentional and based on an assumption that I was assigning you (and @mjg79) a gender that you did not choose for yourself. As you say, some would take offense at another using a pronoun that they did not want applied to themselves. It's disrespectful. As is using an article in the name of a country that the country does not want applied to itself. That was kinda the point.


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## takesome1 (Mar 7, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Incidentally, to close the loop on this — yes, I did. It was intentional and based on an assumption that I was assigning you (and @mjg79) a gender that you did not choose for yourself. As you say, some would take offense at another using a pronoun that they did not want applied to themselves. It's disrespectful. As is using an article in the name of a country that the country does not want applied to itself. That was kinda the point.



Keeping in mind, I never referred to Ukraine as "The" Ukraine. My point was never whether it was correct, or incorrect, rather the rudeness toward those those who did not know that they should not use "The Ukraine".

For you assigning gender, I took no offense. I am not that Politically Correct.


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## takesome1 (Mar 7, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> A person can be blamed for making idiotic statements forever, particularly when there are indelible records of them. That applies equally to presidents and forum posters, and there have been some noteworthy examples in this thread.


True, but no matter what you post, I post or anyone else posts on this thread there is no impact in Ukraine or that situation.
Fourteen months in, how many of those idiotic statements from past Presidents or their actions impact this situation?
It seems to me this is all Bidens to deal with.
Of course it was influenced over the last decade by US and NATO policies.


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## takesome1 (Mar 8, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> In response to the Crimean Anschluss, Russia's GDP fell 35% from 2013 levels. Even today, the GDP is still 25% below 2013 levels.
> 
> And the current sanctions are FAR worse than 2014.
> 
> ...



Retard? Komrad? Are you going to refer to Ukraine as "The Ukraine" now. I am not sure what a komrad is, it must be a phonetic thing.
Not very PC.

Sanctions tend to be two edged sword.
Lets see how everyone's GNP will fair this year with Gas doubling in price, food prices rising and runaway inflation.
All this because of both sanctions and war.

If you have been watching the news you would know that Europe is still getting oil and gas from Russia. Putin has threatened to shut it all down. 
What happens then?


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## takesome1 (Mar 8, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> If you don't believe me listen to this description that is some five or so years old. You'll see there is more to the situation than we tend to know about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ukraine is on the other side of the world, so of course most people here know little. To many people stop at the headlines and never get the story from both sides. I prefer to try and read everything I can from both directions.

I started to watch your video, it is over an hour long. It will have to wait till tonight.


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## Ozarker (Mar 8, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> A person can only blame the former so long.


When the blatant lying, stupidity, interference by a former president in foreign policy, and grift stops... well, he stall gets the blame forever. FOR THAT. Most losers keep their mouths shut when they leave. The stupid ones keep blah, blah, blah.


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## takesome1 (Mar 8, 2022)

CanonFanBoy said:


> When the blatant lying, stupidity, interference by a former president in foreign policy, and grift stops... well, he stall gets the blame forever. FOR THAT. Most losers keep their mouths shut when they leave. The stupid ones keep blah, blah, blah.


*Maybe if Biden asked him nicely he would call up Putin and ask him to leave Ukraine.*

My comment should meet this definition:
_"In internet slang, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory, insincere, digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community"_


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## dtaylor (Mar 8, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> > Biden lost his bargaining power.
> 
> Did anyone HAVE any bargaining power? It seems like Putin's decided to invade no matter what happens, and doesn't care if that end is the economic destruction of his own citizenry. If someone doesn't care about their citizenry, I'd say there IS no bargaining power.


While I concur with much of your post, I believe this is nothing more than a media talking point. Russia has been clear on the point of former Russian states joining NATO since the breakup of the Soviet Union, and their anger over the Donbas civil conflict (war) has also been clear. You take those two things away and there's no chance Putin would have just randomly invaded Ukraine.



SwissFrank said:


> > Weak negotiations on our part, and it makes us look weak.
> 
> You may not really understand economics and finance and warfare, but there's nothing that looks weak when Biden snaps his fingers and the Ruble falls to record lows, the Russian stock exchange is so afraid of what the losses will be it doesn't even open, of Russia being cut off from over 80% of its foreign reserves.


Soft power *is weak* in the face of hard power. It may have the desired effect over time, but it simply can't stop tanks and missiles right now. I don't have a finger on the pulse of Russia's economy so I cannot predict if the sanctions will break them or just cause them to pivot to China and be fine in the long run. I can tell you that because of the energy situation in Europe, it's entirely possible for Europeans and Americans to suffer more painful inflation in the short run than Russians living in Russia. _It's entirely possible that our people will be screaming for an end to the sanctions before their's do. _By shutting down numerous oil and gas projects in America the day he stepped into office, Biden directly undermined our ability to deploy soft power against Russia over the long run. European leaders did the same over time. (German leaders were absolute fools to shut down their nuclear power industry.) Just more foolishness from the most foolish generation of politicians we have ever had.


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## Ozarker (Mar 9, 2022)

AlanF said:


> I have read this thread too. It is fortunate for humanity that some here spend their time fighting over *Dynamic Range* rather than being in charge of international politics.


Well, maybe they are speaking of their artillery experience? This website helps me through these tough times. It is refreshing to see the same "experts" with youtube experience in photography, cameras and lenses they've never touched, etc., are able to also let us know how to solve the world's geopolitical problems if only they were in charge. Such dynamic minds. Who knew the intricacies of international intrigue are always on full display in yahoo news, info wars, twitter, or any other completely and publically accessible websites. With those sources, we're all experts. /s/s/s Kinda like lawyers under billion dollar lawsuits and threat of disbarment for spreading BS. Could Rudy's landscaping speech have been a hint about what he's spreading?


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## Ozarker (Mar 9, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> Did you know... this is an (un)Holy war?
> 
> https://www.jpost.com/christian-news/article-698970
> 
> ...


Feels like Dejavu.


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## unfocused (Mar 10, 2022)

Neutral said:


> It is nice to see that there are some people who understand the current situation. The roots of this crisis is much deeper and has much longer history than most people watching and believing CNN and other such media could imagine, when all russian information sources and medias are blocked in western media space.
> 
> History of this story is more than several centuries.
> 
> ...


I thought I was done with this thread, but I cannot let this stinking pile of bull crap sit unanswered.

Nations are not households. Every nation has a right to its own military and to defend itself and its borders. Every nation has a right to associate with other nations in military pacts for joint defense. 

Putin has no right or legitimate claim to "demilitarize" a neighboring state, no matter how much he may dislike it. Nor, does he have any right to tell a neighboring state that they cannot sign an agreement with other states. 

That's a fact and no amount of rationalizations by Putin apologists can change that. 

Rationalizing the invasion of one country by another by saying "well others countries have done something similar" takes one down a never ending road. How far back in history would you like to go? Perhaps it all is justified because Rome invaded Gaul? 

When the United Nations votes 141-5 to condemn a war, it's time to recognize that you are on the wrong side of history and no matter how much you try to rewrite history that cannot be changed. Russia is the aggressor. It's actions are not justified. It is committing war crimes in Ukraine and it must be condemned for this.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 10, 2022)

@Neutral, for someone ‘neutral’ your post lists many examples of US and British aggression, but ignores examples of Russian aggression. You intentionally give the impression that Russia is merely responding as the victim of the imperialist ambitions of the United Kingdom and its former colony. Certainly, that’s not historically accurate.

Your closing suggestion is spot on. It would have been nice if you had applied it to your own statements before posting.


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## takesome1 (Mar 10, 2022)

Some interesting information from a quick Google search:
Spending on Military
US $778 Billion
Russia $61.7 Billion
China $252 Billion

GNP (Trillions)
US $21.6
Russia $1.7 (Depending on Source)
China $13.2

Population
US 329 Million
Russia 144 Million
China 1.4 Billion

A quote from Putin:
“America is a great power. Today, probably, the only superpower. We accept that,”

Russia's regular military and strength is usually overstated in the press. They have nuclear capabilities that make them a threat.


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## takesome1 (Mar 10, 2022)

Neutral said:


> Next attempt was putting US Pershing misiles in Europe against Russia and then we had Carribian crisis when USSR in return brought their missiles to Cuba. Thanks to president Kennedy this crisis was peacefully resolved. Possibly some group of mighty people in US was not happy about this ( he was more indepenant from them than he should be) and then he was killed.


"Peacefully Resolved"??
Just this one conflict is much more complex than you indicate. A little reading and research might be in order.
I think "Forcibly Resolved" with no war might be a better description.

How you are associating your conspiracy theory to this situation and US people doesn't make sense.
You could see you connecting it to Russia.

The real truth of the Kennedy assassination is that you have been told over the years who the players are and who arranged the assassination of Kennedy. But you can not tell which is true because of all the other conspiracy theories that miss direct you. It is the science of disinformation.


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## unfocused (Mar 10, 2022)

Jack Douglas said:


> Did you actually watch that first video link I posted, the one that is around 5+ years old, the professor? I think not. There is a very complex history that has many nuances. In no way am I a fan of Putin or what Russia is presently doing but neither do I believe the west has no blame in this. And there is a strong religious context as well, not unlike many wars throughout history..
> 
> Jack


I did. The history may be complex, but the current war is not. Ukraine is an independent country which like all countries has the right to defend itself and to associate with other countries, including through mutual defense alliances. Russia, no matter how paranoid their leader may be, does not have the right to dictate to another country whether or not they can defend themselves and does not have the right to determine whether or not another country joins a military alliance. 

Understanding a perspective is no excuse for being an apologist. I can understand Hitler. I can understand Robert E. Lee. I can understand Custer. But, I can at the same time have a moral compass that knows right from wrong and know they were wrong.


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## takesome1 (Mar 10, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Understanding a perspective is no excuse for being an apologist. I can understand Hitler. I can understand Robert E. Lee. I can understand Custer. But, I can at the same time have a moral compass that knows right from wrong and know they were wrong.


The first is a genocidal maniac who in defeat committed suicide.
The second is a general on the wrong side of a cause, and who was pardoned by those he fought against.
The last is a butcher that for years was glorified in books in public schools and was killed by those he persecuted.

How does Putin fit in to this group.









Battle of Washita River - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## unfocused (Mar 10, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> The first is a genocidal maniac who in defeat committed suicide.
> The second is a general on the wrong side of a cause, and who was pardoned by those he fought against.
> The last is a butcher that for years was glorified in books in public schools and was killed by those he persecuted.
> 
> ...


The second was actually a avowed racist who committed treason against his own country.

Putin arranged the murder and attempted murder of innocent countrymen through fake terrorist attacks in order to boost his own political career. He has arranged the murder and attempted murder of political opponents. He is a war criminal who has a record of using banned weapons against civilian populations. And, he has now declared war on a independent nation without any provocation, where he is continuing to commit war crimes using banned weapons and attacking noncombatants, including children and expectant mothers. He fits very nicely with the three examples I mentioned.


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## takesome1 (Mar 10, 2022)

unfocused said:


> The second was actually a avowed racist who committed treason against his own country.
> 
> Putin arranged the murder and attempted murder of innocent countrymen through fake terrorist attacks in order to boost his own political career. He has arranged the murder and attempted murder of political opponents. He is a war criminal who has a record of using banned weapons against civilian populations. And, he has now declared war on a independent nation without any provocation, where he is continuing to commit war crimes using banned weapons and attacking noncombatants, including children and expectant mothers. He fits very nicely with the three examples I mentioned.


There were avowed racist on both sides of the conflict, an over simplification of the conflict is that it was about ownership of a people.
As is often the case, the war was about money. The stench of slavery was removed as a side issue by the war from the country, but the smell still lingers.
If your logic holds then most of the Union and Confederate army belong on that list.








Robert E. Lee - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





However 1 and 3 certainly do belong on the list. They ended up dying as they lived.

_"now declared war on a independent nation without any provocation"_
Looking at both sides of the issue, was there truly no provocation by NATO?
Supplying weapons to fight your neighbor, is it provocation?


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 10, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> Supplying weapons to fight your neighbor, is it provocation?


You mean like Russia supplying weapons to Belarus? Did NATO invade Belarus?


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## unfocused (Mar 10, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> Looking at both sides of the issue, was there truly no provocation by NATO?
> Supplying weapons to fight your neighbor, is it provocation?



As I stated earlier, every country has a right to defend itself and to create a military to do so. They also have the right to supply that military with the necessary weapons to do so. So no, it is not a provocation to secure or supply weapons to an independent country for use by that country to defend themselves. In this case, it is utterly ridiculous to suggest that somehow Putin was "provoked" by a much smaller nation that took no action other than to supply its own military and to try to protect its internationally recognized borders.


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## Jethro (Mar 10, 2022)

I'm looking forward to the ownership (and management) of this site settling down for a number of reasons, including the hope that future threads like this one would be put out of their misery in a more timely fashion.


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## takesome1 (Mar 11, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> You mean like Russia supplying weapons to Belarus? Did NATO invade Belarus?


I will take your word that that happened, I didn't research it. Belarus is a much smaller country and little or no threat when comparing GNP and military spending of the countries.
Possibly their mindset is more like a missiles in Cuba situation, with Ukraine becoming NATO's Cuba?


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## takesome1 (Mar 11, 2022)

Jethro said:


> I'm looking forward to the ownership (and management) of this site settling down for a number of reasons, including the hope that future threads like this one would be put out of their misery in a more timely fashion.


I thought it would be locked long ago. Keep in mind we are free to not read a thread.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 11, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> I will take your word that that happened, I didn't research it. Belarus is a much smaller country and little or no threat when comparing GNP and military spending of the countries.
> Possibly their mindset is more like a missiles in Cuba situation, with Ukraine becoming NATO's Cuba?


I bet you no longer even hear the wooosh of points flying over your head.


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## takesome1 (Mar 11, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I bet you no longer even hear the wooosh of points flying over your head.


Not the petty ones, no. They are more like annoying little nats in the summer.


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## dtaylor (Mar 11, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Nations are not households. Every nation has a right to its own military and to defend itself and its borders. Every nation has a right to associate with other nations in military pacts for joint defense.


This is hopelessly naive. It is also not something the U.S. has *ever* adhered to. Lookup the Monroe Doctrine sometime. Named after president James Monroe. Who first articulated it in *1823.* (The Cuban missile crisis would have been an easier example, but I wanted to make clear just how long America has officially held the *exact opposite* position.)



unfocused said:


> Putin has no right or legitimate claim to "demilitarize" a neighboring state, no matter how much he may dislike it. Nor, does he have any right to tell a neighboring state that they cannot sign an agreement with other states.


How did that work out for Cuba in 1962? Or Iraq in 2003? How long would that work for a NATO state signing agreements with Russia that are detrimental to NATO and the U.S.? Would that work for Mexico if they made an agreement to host Chinese nuclear missiles on our border?

The world is what it is, not what you or anyone else would like it to be. The cold hard reality is that Russia explicitly warned, for years, that certain conditions would result in a war. And Russia was always a nation strong enough to make good on that threat. Rights, morals, principles, even international law don't really enter into it when a stronger adversary presents terms like that. You either live with the terms or you go to war. I am of the opinion that not one Ukrainian life is worth NATO membership for Ukraine. Likewise, not one Ukrainian or Russian life is worth forcing Russians in the Donbas to keep playing in the Ukrainian sandbox. There are things that would be worth war. There are things worth dying for. *These aren't even close.* Poroshenko and Zelensky should have chosen peace on both points.



unfocused said:


> That's a fact and no amount of rationalizations by Putin apologists can change that.


It is your opinion on how the world should work. It is not how the world actually works. We can debate the pros and cons of the principle you articulated. Perhaps it is a principle the world should adhere to. But it would be an abstract conversation about things we might wish to be, rather than things as they are.



unfocused said:


> Rationalizing the invasion of one country by another by saying "well others countries have done something similar" takes one down a never ending road. How far back in history would you like to go? Perhaps it all is justified because Rome invaded Gaul?


This I agree with.



unfocused said:


> When the United Nations votes 141-5 to condemn a war, it's time to recognize that you are on the wrong side of history and no matter how much you try to rewrite history that cannot be changed. Russia is the aggressor. It's actions are not justified. It is committing war crimes in Ukraine and it must be condemned for this.


This is just more wishing for things that are not in place of those things which are. In terms of preventing this war the opinion of 141 nations do not matter at all (except to the extent that some of those nations lied to Poroshenko and Zelensky leading them to make foolish decisions). Only the opinion of one nation mattered, and that nation thinks Ukraine was the aggressor. (A charge not easily dismissed when Ukraine was shelling it's own people who were ethnic Russians.) Whether 'the aggressor' is right or wrong in the abstract doesn't stop a single bullet. Likewise, in terms of repelling this invasion, the opinion of 141 nations *who are unwilling to commit a single solider due to Russia's nuclear arsenal *do not matter. At all. Only the opinions of two nations matter, and one is far bigger than the other.

This was so easily avoided. Don't cross a red line set by a nuclear super power in 1991. And either peacefully convince the Russians in Donbas to remain as part of Ukraine, or let them go. It was that simple. Not one of these points was worth a single human life. It is an absolute tragedy.


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## Neutral (Mar 12, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> This is hopelessly naive. It is also not something the U.S. has *ever* adhered to. Lookup the Monroe Doctrine sometime. Named after president James Monroe. Who first articulated it in *1823.* (The Cuban missile crisis would have been an easier example, but I wanted to make clear just how long America has officially held the *exact opposite* position.)
> 
> 
> How did that work out for Cuba in 1962? Or Iraq in 2003? How long would that work for a NATO state signing agreements with Russia that are detrimental to NATO and the U.S.? Would that work for Mexico if they made an agreement to host Chinese nuclear missiles on our border?
> ...


 I totally agree with you. 
At least there are some people around who understand root of the problem and can see it in historical prospective and understand difference between wishfull thinking and tough reality. Usually I could see such understanding mostly among big project managers managing big complex projects not related to geo-politics.
I wish there would be more such people among top politicians then world would be much better, but it seems that this is impossible.
And yes, this terrible crisis could be easily avoided and a lot of innocent lives could be saved when the last chance was given in December when Russia offered mutual security agreement to US and NATO and that offer was rejected by US. "Big Boss" does not care about people lives, only cares that no other country could challenge his status of the owner of the whole planet. This war is not war of Russia against Ukraine, this is against US and NATO using Ukraine as proxy against Russia.
And from what I see now US and directed by them UK, NATO and EU did whatever possible or impossible ( breaking all the the fundamental western laws which are basement of the western world existence in current state) to put Russia in such condition that Russia can not stop anymore or set back and only has to go forward untill it reach its goals ( no US and NATO in Ukraine and last one is a neutral, demilitarized zone between NATO and Russia)
What is interesting even among some people in UK who hates and demonize Putin and beleive all the fake news from CNN, BBC and other media some understaning is growing of what is really going on and what they need to do.
Here is interesting article:








Thoughts on the Ukraine: Here is how Europe can step back from World War III - EOSHD.com - Filmmaking Gear and Camera Reviews


This isn’t the solution you may expect. It probably is nowhere near palatable for most politicians in the West. There are no good choices in war, but in my opinion there is a quick solution to solve the Ukraine crisis… And avoid the use of tactical nuclear weapons. In a nutshell, what is it? In...




www.eoshd.com




What is also interesting that my previous comment ( my second one in this thread) where I explained more deep how I see current situation was deleted by site admin. Seems that site admin does not want to see here opinions that do not fit of what should be heard here. I've been here for more than 10 years and always respected this site but this came as a big disappointment.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 12, 2022)

Neutral said:


> And yes, this terrible crisis could be easily avoided and a lot of innocent lives could be saved when the last chance was given in December when Russia offered mutual security agreement to US and NATO and that offer was rejected by US.


The draft ‘mutual security’ agreement put forward by Russia was a farce. Russia demanded that NATO reverse its open-door policy included in its founding treaty. Russia demanded NATO not station troops in new member countries, something they had not ever done before Russia’s invasion and annexation of the Crimean peninsula. The agreement included an article banning regional deployment of intermediate-range missiles – a ban that was agreed to by the US and USSR in 1987 and that Russia violated in 2017.

The fact that Russia deployed massive forces at the Ukraine border they claimed were not intended to invade Ukraine, then issued a set of demands couched as ‘mutual security’ while continuing to build their deployment rather than de-escalating, shows the draft agreement was nothing more than an aspect of the larger pretense. Russia never intended the agreement to be accepted or even discussed, they had already planned to instigate this ‘terrible crisis’ and had already planned to cause indiscriminate loss of innocent lives.



Neutral said:


> And from what I see now US and directed by them UK, NATO and EU did whatever possible or impossible ( breaking all the the fundamental western laws which are basement of the western world existence in current state) to put Russia in such condition that Russia can not stop anymore or set back and only has to go forward untill it reach its goals ( no US and NATO in Ukraine and last one is a neutral, demilitarized zone between NATO and Russia)


As you implied before, you’re now stating outright – poor, victimized Russia. They don’t _want_ to launch wars of aggression and territorial expansion, they are forced to launch wars of aggression and territorial expansion by the West. Your argument that the ‘demilitarization’ and ‘de-Nazification’ of a neighboring sovereign nation is justifiable for any reason is deplorable.



Neutral said:


> …the fake news from CNN, BBC and other media


Sounds like the source of news that you personally trust is TASS. That would explain your warped attitudes regarding this reprehensible invasion and war of aggression that you call a ‘special military operation’.


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