# 5d mkii low light help needed.



## CJRodgers (Jul 29, 2013)

Hello fellow canonistas, 

Firstly, sorry if this is in the wrong topic. I have been asked to do a few christening lately which I was pretty happy with the results in the end, but I am also getting frustrated to get there. Please help.

Ok so basicaly, in a church its very low light as I am sure you all know. I dont like push my 5dmkii over 1600 because it gets too noisy for my liking (maybe I have a bad copy?) Sometimes I am a bit further away than I would like whilst I am trying to be respectful and not be in peoples way. I still want tight shots, so I use my 135L, and my problems being.

I am using aperture priority becuase sometimes in manual mode I take too long to adjust settings and I can miss the shot all together! However I am taking the photos and they look great in AV mode on the back of the camera, but then when I get home I notice tiny amounts of motion blur because the 135L was very senstive and sometimes the camera chooses 1/80th or 1/100th. I am not getting a very good 'keeper' rate and its frustrating me.

I could use TV mode, but in these cases I am trying to get more than one person, or just an eye in focus so I want to set my aperture to 2.8ish. I am worried TV mode would just but my aperture to the widest possible. 


What do I do?

Should I just slightly under expose the photos and fix in post, or turn to black and white? Should I increase the ISO and get better noise removal? Should I get a monopod or just try to remember to brace against a wall at every opportunity? Should i take more control and get as close as I need to be to avoid long focal lengths? Should I just be using manual or TV? I am only using one shot, should I use contunous burst? Could it be my AF mode? Which AF mode should I use for church situations?


I only have 3 primes at the moment 24L, 50 1.4 and 135L.

I LOVE THIS LENS. I love it so much I want every excuse to use it. However, should I swap it for the 100L with IS.

How do you handle low light with long focal lengths?

Please help with some friendly advice.

Thanks in advance. 

Craig

P.S I intend to get a 5dmkiii or something similar next year depending on what is released, whereby this problem wouldn't exist for me because I could push the ISO so much higher. However, I don't feel this is an excuse for my low keeper rate in low light which must be due to inexperience or poor technique. Maybe I am being too harsh on myself!


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## LewisShermer (Jul 29, 2013)

unfortunately probably not the answers you're looking for:

Learn to be quicker on your manual settings. Perhaps it's from growing up with medium format film cameras that I always shoot manual and I'm quite good at quick changes in light... It's pretty simple though, choose your shutter speed (no lower than your focal length, so 160th... and even that's if you've got reallllly steady hands) choose your aperture (you've already stated you like to work at 2.8) then you've got to let the ISO do the rest. unfortunately if it's over 1600 then it's too noisy... you could have them settings and point a flash upwards from the camera with a diffuser on and let the ETTL do it's job. you'll get ambient light, a pop of flash and not too many awkward shadows.

OR:

work with a wider lens and get in closer, either a 50mm 1.4 or the sigma 35mm 1.4 and work at 125th at around f2.2, that'll give you a little more light.

OR:

get a 5Diii / 6D and embrace the low light capabilities of the future. I just shot a wedding with the sigma 35mm 1.4 on a 5Diii and I had no problems really 'til the first dance at dusk where I had to pop a flash on.


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## CJRodgers (Jul 29, 2013)

Ok cool, I was just wondering if there where any secret tips. I notice alot of church photos get turned to black and white, and I am thinking thats a little trick becuase they are slightly underexposed etc??

I think you are right, Ill just have to get quicker with manual mode until I get a 5d mkiii next year. If that doesn't go well I will use my 50mm and crop when needed. I probably just need to be more confident about where I can stand too. Also, it looks like trusting the back of my camera to tell if its sharp is no good, so maybe taking more photos than I need is something I should rather than just thinking 'great, I got it'


I have never been allowed to use a flash in church so that's not an option sadly.


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## cervantes (Jul 29, 2013)

In my opinion you have the following options:

- Use the 50 1.4 instead of 135 2: This will reduce the need of fast shutter speeds due to shorter focal length + you have a 1 stop brighter aperture (if you like the results at f/1.4) -> you will gain about 2 stops of lower ISO

- Use faster shutter speeds and compensate by using higher ISO and OVERexposing (ETTR). Pull back the over exposed shots in pp. I never had the 5DII but I suppose it should be quite fine until ISO 6400 using this technique. Do NOT underexpose like you suggested in your post!!

- Use Flash. An inexpensive 430EXII + diffuser (you are not going to bounce in a church i suppose) will give you all the lighting you need. I understand that you want to preserve the atmosphere so I suggest you use flash for people (candid portraits) and no flash for wide angle interior shots with the 24L.

The 100L should give you some more flexibility due to IS but you need to watch out to keep shutter speeds fast enough to stop your subjects movements. I wouldn't recommend this lens in your situation.

Greetings


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## Canon1 (Jul 29, 2013)

Unless you are trying to print big, you can push the ISO a bit higher on that camera. An underexposed image will always have higher noise and will be more challenging to fix. 

Try pushing your ISO up to 6400 or 12800 on some test shots. Make SURE you expose correctly and then work on noise in post. A proper exposure on ISO 6400 will have less noise then an underexposed image at ISO 2000. 

Most images are probably shared on social media or printed 8x10 or smaller in which case it's ok to push the ISO. (Assumption here)

If you have a chance to do some test shooting before your next event you can try some exposure work. A 5d3 would help you, but it won't solve all your problems. It is a better camera but will not revolutionize low light photography for you?

Also, what do you use for noise reduction software?


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## alipaulphotography (Jul 29, 2013)

Set the MKII to manual and keep the aperture at f/2 and shutter to 1/160.

This will give you the most light possible with no blurry hand shake. The lighting will be pretty constant in a church so just toggle the ISO to where the exposure is good.

Don't be afraid to crank the ISO. Better to have a little noise than a blurry shot due to slow shutter speeds.

Black and white only really helps if you've managed to introduce colour noise in the shadows (by pushing in post) or if you are struggling to get a good looking white balance.


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## CJRodgers (Jul 29, 2013)

cervantes said:


> In my opinion you have the following options:
> 
> - Use the 50 1.4 instead of 135 2: This will reduce the need of fast shutter speeds due to shorter focal length + you have a 1 stop brighter aperture (if you like the results at f/1.4) -> you will gain about 2 stops of lower ISO
> 
> ...



Thanks for this I will try this technique ASAP. How much should I over expose by before it can't be recovered in PP? 1 stop?

Yes I will use my 50 1.4 more next time. I just love the brokeh on my 135l so much i try to use it in every situation I can. Maybe I should have just bouth the 50mm 1.2 haha. I dont usually use my lens completely wide open as they aren't as sharp. Will sharpening in PP recover this?

I am secretly glad you dont recommend the 100L IS. It would hurt me too much to get rid of my 135L at the moment.

Flash has always been completely banned in the churches I have been, which is a shame as a small amount would help so much. If I was ever allowed to use flash, should I gel it to mix with the church lights, or would the ambient light coming through the windows typically be the main source I am blending with?

Thanks again, 

Craig


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## CJRodgers (Jul 29, 2013)

I had the trial of topaz noise reduction which I really liked. I am only using the built in noise reduction from ACR in creative suite 6 until I buy the topaz version.

Any suggestions?

Also, Is there a way to toggle ISO without neededing to press the shoulder button first in manual? I can just practise more if not!



I use spot exposure. Is this OK for getting a good exposure or should I use somehthing else? Should I slightly over expose or aim to get it dead on 0?

Lastly, I never resize my Images, should I do this to hide a bit of the noise? What should I scale them down to?


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## alipaulphotography (Jul 29, 2013)

CJRodgers said:


> I had the trial of topaz noise reduction which I really liked. I am only using the built in noise reduction from ACR in creative suite 6 until I buy the topaz version.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> ...



I personally never use noise reduction, even when shooting 3200. But then again, I even add grain into my images. So I personally like a bit of texture in my images as I think it gives them character. You always end up losing sharpness with noise reduction so find a balance that works for you.

You won't have to be toggling ISO often, just till the exposure is right. The lighting shouldn't be changing that often indoors. In a low light setting you shouldn't have the option to over expose. It is more a battle to get an exposure of 0!

Spot metering should help if the surrounding area is dark and there are spot lights on the subject which can be the case in churches. I'd just take a sample shot and see how the preview and histogram looks rather than rely on the cameras meter.

Resize if exporting for web.
2048 pixels wide for facebook and 800pixels wide for other web purposes such as blogs etc where there is no full screen option.


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## CJRodgers (Jul 29, 2013)

Thank you all so much. I really appreciate the advise. I want to get into another shoot straight away. This will hopefully make me much more satisfied with my keeper rate.

Craig


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## cervantes (Jul 29, 2013)

CJRodgers said:


> cervantes said:
> 
> 
> > In my opinion you have the following options:
> ...



Overexpose as much as you can without blowing the highlights -> +1 stop sounds reasonable.
I don't own the 50 1.4 nor the 135 2 but as I hear you should stop down the 50 for IQ reasons but there's no need in stopping down the 135. Sharpening in PP does not add any information to the shot i just makes it appear sharper - stopping down really improves IQ. I'm not telling you what approach to use - you need to find the optimal IQ tradeoff between aperture and ISO for yourself.

When it comes to noise reduction I recommend using a fair amount of color noise reduction but no to very few luminance reduction. CNR will remove any color noise without reducing detail but luminance reduction will reduce detail and therefore sharpness.

I don't really understand why you use spot metering - I wouldn't recommend it especially not if you are trying to overexpose (highlights at the outer parts of the image will not be taken into account during metering and will therefore blow faster).

Additionally try resizing your images to 6MP. You will notice a vast improvement in sharpness and probably in ISO performance and the images are still very large. 21MP is an image size suitable for very large prints - I don't think you need that in this case.
I don't remember you mentioning it but I strongly advise you to shoot RAW and resizing your images after pp and cropping. Try different sizes and use the ones you like best. Except for large posters I always resize my 22MP RAWs to 6MP.


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## RLPhoto (Jul 29, 2013)

I shoot nearly the exact same 24 - 50 - 135 combo. 

Bump your ISO to get at minimum a 1/200th with the 135L. That does two things, one is prevent camera shake and the other is prevent people shake as well. Never underexpose! Hit the exposure correctly at a high ISO is better than underexposing and pushing in post. 

I imagine this is a non-flash situation and inside the church, I see no reason to use AV. The light isn't changing so Manual should be used. 

Another alternative is if the light is that low and if the church is permitting, use the 50mm and work closer.


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## CJRodgers (Jul 29, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> I shoot nearly the exact same 24 - 50 - 135 combo.
> 
> Bump your ISO to get at minimum a 1/200th with the 135L. That does two things, one is prevent camera shake and the other is prevent people shake as well. Never underexpose! Hit the exposure correctly at a high ISO is better than underexposing and pushing in post.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I was just so nervious about using manual and messing about with settings I thought it was easier. I was wrong, so Ill definately go for manual in future. 

Out of interest, how do you find the 24, 50, 135 combo? I sometimes wonder if I need something in the gap for 50 and 135.

Craig


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## RLPhoto (Jul 29, 2013)

CJRodgers said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > I shoot nearly the exact same 24 - 50 - 135 combo.
> ...



I use the 24LII and 50L on two bodies 90% of the time at a weddings or events. I'll rotate the 50L out for the 135L if I can't get closer but I like to work as close as I can. I always keep the wide prime on just incase it gets hectic I know I can depend on it. 

FYI, If i'm using flash... I just use my 24-105 @ around 5.6...


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## alipaulphotography (Jul 30, 2013)

CJRodgers said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > I shoot nearly the exact same 24 - 50 - 135 combo.
> ...



I use the 35 and an 85 90% of the time at my weddings. Feels really versatile to me. 50 only gets used if I'm only carrying 1 body 1 lens. 135 gets whipped out for the distance shots like ceremony and speeches.


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