# Nikon Confirms New Mirrorless System Coming in Early 2019, What About Canon?



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 1, 2018)

```
A <a href="https://nikonrumors.com/2018/04/30/nikon-new-mirrorless-camera-will-be-brought-to-market-by-next-spring.aspx/">Nikon representative confirmed that their new mirrorless system</a> will be coming by spring of 2019 (<a href="https://youtu.be/M0qYXY3jPG8?t=1111">video here</a>). We’ll assume this new mirrorless system is going to be full frame, and perhaps an APS-C little brother as well.</p>
<p>So what about Canon?</p>
<p>We know there are various bodies in testing and at various stages of development, though we’re pretty confident that a hard date for an announcement has not been determined as of yet. It’s speculated around the web that both Nikon and Canon will make some kind of announcement for a full frame mirrorless camera at Photokina in September.</p>
<p>If Nikon is saying their new system will be coming some time in early 2019, I don’t think they’ll be doing an official product announcement at Photokina, and it’s more likely we’ll get some kind of  a “development” announcement. I think there’s a high probability Canon does a similar thing at Photokina. I will say however, we’e never been told about a “development announcement” before they happen. People don’t like announcements and then having to wait 6 months to buy the product, we’ve seen that in the past with Canon and it’s not good for anyone.</p>
<p>I don’t think it matters to Canon or Nikon who is first out of the gate with a full frame mirrorless camera. Both companies obviously have a very loyal customer base and both will be going right at Sony. If both companies make comparable products to Sony feature-set wise, they’ll both easily take a large chunk full frame mirrorless marketshare rather quickly. The one caveat to that will be how F and EF mount lenses fit into the picture.</p>
<p>Lots more to come…</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## Ryananthony (May 1, 2018)

I feel bad for anyone using Canon or Nikon, who want a FF mirrorless. This is proving to take a while.


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## Diltiazem (May 1, 2018)

Canon and Nikon just need to make their mirrorless compatible with existing lenses. Sony is toast.


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## Aaron D (May 1, 2018)

Oh man, really? "The one caveat to that will be how F and EF mount lenses fit into the picture."

Why throw red meat to the blog-o-warriors? Is it really necessary to poke at the Big Sore Spot, or is it out of fear the topic has been exhausted finally and there really is nothing to get outraged about?


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## keithcooper (May 1, 2018)

*See the actual video*

It's briefly mentioned 18:30 into this report from CP+ (so hardly news)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0qYXY3jPG8&feature=youtu.be

The screen shot was put up by yet-another-new-rumor-site but with no link to the video - this seems to have been picked up all over the place, but with no context (N has mentioned its mirrorless aims before) and absolutely no detail ;-)


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## Canon Rumors Guy (May 1, 2018)

Aaron D said:


> Oh man, really? "The one caveat to that will be how F and EF mount lenses fit into the picture."
> 
> Why throw red meat to the blog-o-warriors? Is it really necessary to poke at the Big Sore Spot, or is it out of fear the topic has been exhausted finally and there really is nothing to get outraged about?



Lots of people continue to ask me about this, so it's important.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (May 1, 2018)

*Re: See the actual video*



keithcooper said:


> It's briefly mentioned 18:30 into this report from CP+ (so hardly news)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0qYXY3jPG8&feature=youtu.be
> 
> The screen shot was put up by yet-another-new-rumor-site but with no link to the video - this seems to have been picked up all over the place, but with no context (N has mentioned its mirrorless aims before) and absolutely no detail ;-)



Well, the video was posted 3 days ago.... I added a link to it.

People continuously ask me about this topic, so they tend to miss posts on the site and consider this new information.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 1, 2018)

I think that Nikon had to mention the new camera to stop people from moving to Canon and Sony. Canon's M series is doing very well, Nikon may be losing lots of APS-C customers to them. 

Its also possible that Canon is planning a development announcement and Nikon wanted to be first. I think that both companies want to create a buildup of anticipation, so look for teasers as the summer arrives.


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## jayphotoworks (May 1, 2018)

It does appear from some of the rumors that the new Nikon mirrorless system might be using a new Z-mount and an adapter for its existing F mount lenses. Still waiting to see how Canon responds. 

If mirrorless is the eventual replacement of analog DSLRs (so to speak), and Canon does in fact introduce a new mount, how will Canon determine its roadmap for existing shooters? Will they eventually also produce a set of pro 2.8 zooms for the new mount, while continually developing mark III, IV, etc. versions of the existing EF mount zooms? 

If Canon, staying true to its conservative nature felt that mirrorless was up to their standards, would that mean that they may even replace its lower end models like the XXD line by making them mirrorless entirely while keeping mirrors in the 5D and 1DX for pros?

Interesting times indeed.


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## keithcooper (May 1, 2018)

*Re: See the actual video*



Canon Rumors said:


> keithcooper said:
> 
> 
> > It's briefly mentioned 18:30 into this report from CP+ (so hardly news)
> ...



Early yesterday, there were few links to the actual video, just a screen grab. Needs seeing in context to see how little is said ;-)


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## MartinF. (May 1, 2018)

jayphotoworks said:


> ...If mirrorless is the eventual replacement of analog DSLRs (so to speak), and Canon does in fact introduce a new mount, how will Canon determine its roadmap for existing shooters? Will they eventually also produce a set of pro 2.8 zooms for the new mount, while continually developing mark III, IV, etc. versions of the existing EF mount zooms?
> 
> If Canon, staying true to its conservative nature felt that mirrorless was up to their standards, would that mean that they may even replace its lower end models like the XXD line by making them mirrorless entirely while keeping mirrors in the 5D and 1DX for pros?
> Interesting times indeed.



Spot on!
Personally I am not into mirrorless for the moment. But I Canon skip the EF mount, as native mount for prosumer and prof. cameras - then a lot of photographers will be left at a dead end, as when Canon went from FD to EF mount.
I simply don'nt understand why mirrorless i a prosumer/prof. camera will require a new mount. In that segment cameras need to have some size to have prober ergonomics especially with large tele lenses and other prof (and heavy) zoomlenses.


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## Talys (May 1, 2018)

MartinF. said:


> Spot on!
> Personally I am not into mirrorless for the moment. But I Canon skip the EF mount, as native mount for prosumer and prof. cameras - then a lot of photographers will be left at a dead end, as when Canon went from FD to EF mount.
> I simply don'nt understand why mirrorless i a prosumer/prof. camera will require a new mount. In that segment cameras need to have some size to have prober ergonomics especially with large tele lenses and other prof (and heavy) zoomlenses.



Canon (or anyone else) will not be able to sign me on to a new lens mount if it means the kind of things that Sony FE lenses has brought to the table:

- All focus by wire and less tactile
- Way more expensive
- Often longer
- Significantly smaller throat, yet same diameter front elements

For me a new lens mount would only be interesting if:

- Pro lenses are still be mechanical, grab and twist focus not requiring battery/power to MF
- Faster autofocus

These would be nice but not determinative, for me:
- Genuinely smaller or lighter
- Better image stabilization
- Some long telephoto optical formula required a short flange distance

There's literally nothing else I care to have in a lens. I really like, for example, the AF speed of the 18-135 nano usm. If you could have that AF speed in dual pixel AND be able to manually grab and MF -- I'd say yes to a new lens mount. But I think that's a pipe dream, and if I had to pick, I'd still take mechanical MF over nano USM AF speed.


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## JoSto (May 1, 2018)

If they dump the EF-mount I would be happy because I can then buy loads of cheap, old EF lenses.

I have zero motivation to adapt to a different mount. If I wanted to sell off my EF-Lenses I would have gone to Sony a long time ago. Modern professional cameras made after 2010 (like my 1dx) are by far good enough for any job.

In gerneral, I think dumping the EF and F mount would be a big mistake for Nikon and Canon. Why stay with them when you have to buy new lenses instead. Lets go to Sony then.


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## fullstop (May 1, 2018)

> Unfortunately, additional details are still scarce. According to the latest rumors, the new lens mount will be called the Z-mount and come with an external diameter of 49mm and a flange focal distance of 16mm.



oO - Nikon might be repeating Sony's mistake on lens mount parameters. If true, then still fairly narrow throat combined with very short FFD.


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## jasny (May 1, 2018)

Talys said:


> For me a new lens mount would only be interesting if:
> 
> - Pro lenses are still be mechanical, grab and twist focus not requiring battery/power to MF



In mirrorless you will always need a battery to focus manually. To power EVF or LCD...


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## MartinF. (May 1, 2018)

JoSto said:


> If they dump the EF-mount I would be happy because I can then buy loads of cheap, old EF lenses.
> 
> I have zero motivation to adapt to a different mount. If I wanted to sell off my EF-Lenses I would have gone to Sony a long time ago. Modern professional cameras made after 2010 (like my 1dx) are by far good enough for any job.
> 
> In gerneral, I think dumping the EF and F mount would be a big mistake for Nikon and Canon. Why stay with them when you have to buy new lenses instead. Lets go to Sony then.



So true


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## hkenneth (May 1, 2018)

I would have little interest in a FF mirrorless if it's not compatible with the EF mount.


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## glness (May 1, 2018)

I was going to buy a couple of the more expensive "L" EF lenses this next month, but until the uncertainty around this issue is cleared up, I'm not buying anything. I have no expectations what will be announced or when, but until I can get undisputed information on Canon's mirrorless offerings, it seems a less-than-optimal time to make a buying decision on upper-end bodies or lenses. I would think Nikon users would feel the same.


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## gmon750 (May 1, 2018)

Ryananthony said:


> I feel bad for anyone using Canon or Nikon, who want a FF mirrorless. This is proving to take a while.



Oh please. I'm happy and patiently waiting to see what Canon comes up with. You're making it sound our dSLR's are suddenly inoperable and no longer useful. Mirrorless offers INCREMENTAL improvements, and not the end-all-be-all of anything prior. I'm ready to buy a 5DM4 to complement my 5DM3, but since I'm in no rush, I and many others are fine with waiting. We're not like other people that have to have their 15-minute attention-span fulfilled with the next shiny gadget.

I'm happy to see folks like Sony coming in, making their mistakes, and putting out a new camera every year while Canon is making sure their offering is baked right out the gate.


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## Talys (May 1, 2018)

jasny said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > For me a new lens mount would only be interesting if:
> ...



Untrue. If I know my subject is close, at 10m, 25m, or infinity, I can simply MF there without ever looking at the LCD or viewfinder. This way, when I am looking through the VF, I can actually see the subject. Plus. The AF will be much faster.


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## Ryananthony (May 1, 2018)

gmon750 said:


> Ryananthony said:
> 
> 
> > I feel bad for anyone using Canon or Nikon*, who want a FF mirrorless. *This is proving to take a while.
> ...



Oh please. I bolded a section of my post which you seem to have missed. Regardless of what you think, no matter how big or small the market is for FF mirrorless, there are Canon users who are eagerly waiting. I'm not making it sound like anything, and I never said any of things you mentioned in your post, you are getting ahead of yourself. My post doesn't even suggest I want FF mirrorless. And if you find yourself confusing my words again, I'll make it clear. 

There are people who want canon FF mirrorless, if nothing more then for an EVF. It was suggested we might see one here in 2018, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I feel bad that those users, who are now looking to be waiting until next year.


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## brad-man (May 1, 2018)

Seems like I've read this thread before...


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## littleB (May 1, 2018)

Once again we see a person who is sorry about Canon or Nikon users. It should be very sad for him to feel all that sorrow and nothing else. But Canon and Nikon users are still able to make great pictures somehow. Their cameras are just an imaging tool rather than a cult object, which needs renewed worship every year.
Yet this person statement tells us nothing about Canon or Nikon users, but rather about that person himself and his or her feelings.


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## Ryananthony (May 1, 2018)

littleB said:


> Once again we see a person who is sorry about Canon or Nikon users. It should be very sad for him to feel all that sorrow and nothing else. But Canon and Nikon users are still able to make great pictures somehow. Their cameras are just an imaging tool rather than a cult object, which needs renewed worship every year.
> Yet this person statement tells us nothing about Canon or Nikon users, but rather about that person himself and his or her feelings.



Feel free to quote me if you are actually referring to me. I'm both a Canon and Nikon user. The mojority of what I shoot is birds in flight, and sports so I'm not actually looking for a mirrorless at the moment. But thanks for your participation in the thread.


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## DaviSto (May 1, 2018)

Ryananthony said:


> There are people who want canon FF mirrorless, if nothing more then for an EVF. It was suggested we might see one here in 2018, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I feel bad that those users, who are now looking to be waiting until next year.


I am overwhelmed by your sympathy. I am so grateful you feel my need and that you feel bad for me. Knowing you are beside me ... perhaps, maybe, I can carry on.

Without you ... I do not know where I could look for solace.


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## Ryananthony (May 1, 2018)

DaviSto said:


> Ryananthony said:
> 
> 
> > There are people who want canon FF mirrorless, if nothing more then for an EVF. It was suggested we might see one here in 2018, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I feel bad that those users, who are now looking to be waiting until next year.
> ...



I know how sensitive some people are, my shoulder is here for you.


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## KirkD (May 1, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I think that both companies want to create a buildup of anticipation, so look for teasers as the summer arrives.


We don't need no buildup of anticipation or teasers. We've been waiting so long we are straining at the ends of our logging chains, gory-eyed, spittle flying from our fangs, howling-stark-raving crazy for the Canon FF mirrorless. No need to build anticipation here.


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## tmc784 (May 1, 2018)

I am expecting a new Canon FF-M, 50 MP, must be EF native mount, 4K video, IBIS, or DSLR as well.


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## Bennymiata (May 2, 2018)

I'm sure that Canon will come up with a good and simple way of using ef lenses on the new mirrorless cameras.
But please Canon, don't make the mistake of putting the lens mount too close to the grip. I hate getting my fingers cramped and stuck like I do with Sony A7s.
And don't put a green-yellow cast on the pictures like Sony does.

One thing for sure, when Canon does bring out its FF mirrorless, it will work well and be good ergonomically - unlike other milcs.


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## tmroper (May 2, 2018)

Ryananthony said:


> I feel bad for anyone using Canon or Nikon, who want a FF mirrorless. This is proving to take a while.



I feel bad for the people who spent a lot of money thinking they were getting a modern, mirrorless camera that was better than any DSLR, and got stuck with a Sony Alpha instead. Not even touch af until recently, and even now it's laggy and only for focus (come on Sony, what about "touch" don't you undersand?). Even a phone does more than that! And spaghetti code-like menu systems, weird colors, overheating (gee, electronics generate heat? Who knew?), incompetent battery design, no thought for weather sealing etc, all add up to not very modern tech at all. But granted, yes, Sony is doing a great job working on all these problems, (and consumers do make great beta testers) and thing are getting better. But man is it taking awhile...


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## Refurb7 (May 2, 2018)

tmroper said:


> Ryananthony said:
> 
> 
> > I feel bad for anyone using Canon or Nikon, who want a FF mirrorless. This is proving to take a while.
> ...



To be fair, Sony has really improved their battery life. All reports I've read are that their new cameras (A7III, etc.) with the "Z" batteries have very good battery life. It is something like 3X better than in the previous generation (A7II, etc.). For me, that would be good enough.


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## HarryFilm (May 2, 2018)

There is MOST DEFINITELY A NEW LENS MOUNT COMING from Canon!

....BUT....

It ain't for Full Frame but rather a MUCH LARGER SENSOR to be put into higher end Cinema EOS DCI 8K (8192 by 4380 pixels) video camera and a New Medium Format 8k Stills/4K video camera that looks like a way-oversized 1Dx Mk2.

The new lens mount is SUPPOSED to be able to take as a large as a 65mm film-size sensor (i.e. for Cinema EOS cameras) but my European engineering sources say the initial MF STILL CAMERA sensor is to be a 56mm by 42mm Bayer pattern sensor for Medium Format stills photography at about 8192 by 6036 pixels (4:3 aspect ratio) with a photosite size of about 6.82 microns. That interesting aspect ratio (i.e. NOT 3:2) would be GREAT for ANAMORPHIC LENSES for BOTH video and stills!

A sensor THAT LARGE would make for some STUNNING 50 Megapixel low-light photographs with VERY LITTLE NOISE at up to about ISO 12800 with STILL VERY usable photos at up to around ISO 32000 based upon some basic electrical calculations of mine compared with current noise specs and samples on the Canon 1Dx Mk2.

I have heard that REAL WORLD TESTING is being and has been done with that MF camera using large MF prime and zoom lenses! And based upon Photos I have seen on certain engineering forums, I believe that what I saw is fairly complete in terms of a sellable Canon design. I suspect we shall see either an extension to the Cinema EOS C700 system (i.e. C900?) AND/OR a full Medium Format official Canon announcement as soon as February 2019. 

I have also heard through the grapevine that some very MAJOR Canon customers have ALREADY been given a heads up via engineering pre-announcements to said select customers! (i.e. possibly for Olympics coverage issues?) There MAY be an MF announcement at Photokina indicating that Canon is working on said Large Sensor Medium Format camera with new sensor mount similar to an Arri Alexa-65's size!


YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST !!!!!!!!!


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## Ah-Keong (May 2, 2018)

Hope Canon can stick to the EF mount or an EF-M adaptor for the mirrorless fullframe body for the time being.

Looking at the mirrorless technology (Fujifilm, Sony, etc) as of today, there is not any significant weight and volume savings looking at a total solution (body + battery + lens) point of view.


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## -1 (May 2, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> There is MOST DEFINITELY A NEW LENS MOUNT COMING from Canon!
> 
> ....BUT....
> 
> ...



Soo... You was drunk while posting this? Well... Could happen. Not much's going on at Chinablads Copenhagen offices these days, it seems...


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## Bahrd (May 2, 2018)

-1 said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > There is MOST DEFINITELY A NEW LENS MOUNT COMING from Canon!
> ...



But you have to admit that if true, it would be great! 

Anyway, it is the most entertaining post I have recently read here. At least it is pretty creative. I prefer such posts (this is a rumors forum, ain't it!) rather than those never ending mundane refrains about the superiority of one product over another.


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## Quackator (May 2, 2018)

I am pretty sure that canon hast developed and tested several options 
up to the point that they are more or less production-ready.

They might wait to see what Nikon announces, then decide their answer
and immediately start producing. They don't have to book sensor baking 
slots, they bake their own and are able to switch focus without any 
problems. 

So Canon with their huge production capacity can decide /after/ Nikon
drops their pants and still beat them to market.

That said, there is no reason for me to expect any mount other than EF.


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## Mikehit (May 2, 2018)

Quackator said:


> They might wait to see what Nikon announces, then decide their answer
> and immediately start producing.
> 
> ...
> ...



You really believe they can see what Nikon announces and immediately change their specifications to challenge it and still beat Nikon to market...?


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## ken (May 2, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Quackator said:
> 
> 
> > They might wait to see what Nikon announces, then decide their answer
> ...



Not just their specifications, but manufacturing process. People don't seem to understand how small changes can require changes to process that impact a manufacturing line. The smallest of changes requires extensive analysis and testing. And before someone suggests it... no... No one builds alternate implementations of their manufacturing lines in order to make a last minute decision. No one but the government throws money away like that.


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## tekin112000 (May 2, 2018)

If Canon does come out with a MILC and they do use the existing EF mount will my third party lenses work?

Sorry if this is a newb question, I am a newb when it come to lens mounts and compatibility.

I have a 50D that's been fine for my hobby needs with my Sigma, Tamron Tokina lenses. By the time spring 2019 rolls around I will be thinking about updating

Will I have to start all over with new lenses? I would think that if older third party lenses are not compatible with a new Canon EF mount MILC the resale values for them would drop like a bag of dirt


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## Talys (May 2, 2018)

tekin112000 said:


> If Canon does come out with a MILC and they do use the existing EF mount will my third party lenses work?
> 
> Sorry if this is a newb question, I am a newb when it come to lens mounts and compatibility.
> 
> ...



I can't imagine an issue whether it's native, first party adapter, or something else creative, since third party EF lenses work perfectly with dual pixel AF on EF mount, and I can't imagine any other AF technology driving the first generation of Canon FF mirrorless.


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## infared (May 2, 2018)

I am not holding my breath at all for Canon's Mirrorless offering. Odds are, that they do not "get it right".
We'll see........


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## fullstop (May 2, 2018)

EF lenses will continue to work, but possibly require a simple adapter to mount them. AF performance will likely be very similar to operation in live view mode on a DSLR.

Third-Party lenses for Canon EF should also continue to work. BUT there could well be a number of issues related to lens-camera communication protocol and firmware, depending on manufacturer and age and type of lens. Canon has made changes to that communication protocol many times times in the past and quite a few times it resulted in problems with regards to some third party lenses. 

A major changeover such as the one to mirrorless - likely with a new lens mount version - will probably also bring major changes to communication protocol / firmware to optimize overall potential of mirrorless camera and lens system, especially AF functionality and performance. If or to what extent third-party lenses will be adversely affected remains to be seen. Safest bet is certainly to use original Canon lenses.


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## kkamena (May 2, 2018)

infared said:


> I am not holding my breath at all for Canon's Mirrorless offering. Odds are, that they do not "get it right".
> We'll see........



The odds are that whatever they put out will cause countless Vloggers, Bloggers, Reviewers, and forum poster to declare that Canon is finally dead and Sony is the new King of Cameras. However it will be a nice Camera that does its job well and will probably still out sell the competition.


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## Quackator (May 2, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Quackator said:
> 
> 
> > They might wait to see what Nikon announces, then decide their answer
> ...



No, you got me wrong. They for sure have developed and tested several
variations, but they haven't decided which of them to declare their gold 
standard. So, with the knowledge about Nikons announcement, they will 
be able to decide better. THIS then prompts how to set up manufacturing 
lines. Canon is much faster in production preparation and delivers a much
higher output than any other manufacturer. Their new robotic assembly 
line adds to their flexibility.

When Nikon announces, this means with deadly accurycy that they have 
started producing.

So, if Canon is able to set up the manufacturing fast enough, they will
probably be able to beat Nikon to market with their answer.

They will have researched Nikons options long and deep, and they will
have an escalation route for any of these options. The minute Nikon 
drops their pants, Canon will know their answer.


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## dak723 (May 2, 2018)

kkamena said:


> infared said:
> 
> 
> > I am not holding my breath at all for Canon's Mirrorless offering. Odds are, that they do not "get it right".
> ...



Yes, it is unfortunate how the internet media has taken a stance and run with it - influencing so many internet users over the past few years. I feel sorry for those that fall for it, as I did a few years ago. I always make sure I buy cameras from a place that has a no question return policy, so i wasn't burned when I bought my Sony.

As a Canon M5 owner for the past year or so, I have little doubt that Canon's FF mirrorless will be a really good camera, just as the M5 is. I wouldn't trade my M5 for a Sony A7 III, that's for sure.


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## Mikehit (May 2, 2018)

Quackator said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Quackator said:
> ...



Canon already know their answer. What Nikon announces is irrelevant.


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## Don Haines (May 2, 2018)

gmon750 said:


> Ryananthony said:
> 
> 
> > I feel bad for anyone using Canon or Nikon, who want a FF mirrorless. This is proving to take a while.
> ...



+1


The question is not who gets one out first, it's who manages to have a good mirrorless SYSTEM.


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## nchoh (May 2, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> gmon750 said:
> 
> 
> > Ryananthony said:
> ...



Canon being the incumbent is surely following the second to market strategy. The have been watching Sony's and Nikon's moves and are not in a rush to just put out something.

Furthermore, it seems to me that Canon already has part of their strategy in place. The EF-M system is their standard for small portable APS-C mirrorless. The recent rumor is that they have a new mount system coming out. I would expect that they will find the optimal design for FF mirrorless. Sony fan boys can laugh all they want, but I trust when Canon comes out with their FF mirrorless, Sony will have a hard time competing.


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## infared (May 2, 2018)

kkamena said:


> infared said:
> 
> 
> > I am not holding my breath at all for Canon's Mirrorless offering. Odds are, that they do not "get it right".
> ...



Funny..so your comment says that we will get a very mediocre camera that will sell well. Just because something sells well does not make it GREAT for your needs.   8)


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## infared (May 2, 2018)

dak723 said:


> kkamena said:
> 
> 
> > infared said:
> ...



Right now I have an extensive Olympus system for my compact mirrorless needs....and let me tell you...the EM1 II got sooooooo much right....and the system has an EXTENSIVE lens system from many manufacturers....
Canon..um..not so much. ..but I do love my 5DIV and the results that I get...especially for astro work. 
Olympus also offer many smaller compact bodies and lenses for when you want to go superlight....Great stuff...
With a few more sensor improvements and that format ....FF will be moot for my needs!


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## woodman411 (May 3, 2018)

kkamena said:


> infared said:
> 
> 
> > I am not holding my breath at all for Canon's Mirrorless offering. Odds are, that they do not "get it right".
> ...



^This. More specifically, Rishi and the rest of his anti-Canon DPR crew will condescendingly state how Canon finally listened to them, but they're late to the party and hopelessly behind Sony. They will harp on the minuscule dynamic range advantage of the Sony, since that is their fetish, no matter how insignificant the difference is, and how much better value Sony is, completely disregarding Sony lens prices, where it's obvious to everyone but DPR that is where they make their profits.


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## captainkanji (May 3, 2018)

I wouldnt mind replacing my 6D before my next Japan trip in 2021. I could see getting a mirrorless body if it used EF lenses natively. I may go the 5DS route though. I dont like tiny camera bodies.


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## dak723 (May 3, 2018)

infared said:


> kkamena said:
> 
> 
> > infared said:
> ...



Just how little English do you understand where "does its job well" means "very mediocre camera "?

If you are going to misquote someone to make a point, maybe better not.


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## infared (May 3, 2018)

dak723 said:


> infared said:
> 
> 
> > kkamena said:
> ...



I did not misquote anyone. That is my interpretation of their verbiage. 
A "nice" camera. LOL! It's all yours!


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## Woody (May 3, 2018)

infared said:


> I did not misquote anyone. That is my interpretation of their verbiage.
> A "nice" camera. LOL! It's all yours!



Perhaps an example will help to clarify things a little. The 6D and 6D MarkII cameras are somewhat 'mediocre'... they do not have the best dynamic range at low ISO, low noise performance at high ISO, best AF sensor, highest frame rate etc... but they are the bestselling FF DSLRs in Japan (BCNRanking) and USA Amazon website.

Why? Because the cameras do their jobs well. And the system which includes lenses and flash etc works reliably.


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## fullstop (May 3, 2018)

Woody said:


> Perhaps an example will help to clarify things a little. The 6D and 6D MarkII cameras are somewhat 'mediocre'... they do not have the best dynamic range at low ISO, low noise performance at high ISO, best AF sensor, highest frame rate etc... but they are the bestselling FF DSLRs in Japan (BCNRanking) and USA Amazon website.
> 
> Why? Because the cameras do their jobs well. And the system which includes lenses and flash etc works reliably.



Yes. But more importantly: because Canon 6D / 6D II is the most affordable FF camera system available on the market - considering not only body but also interchangeable lenses at affordable prices. Nikon D610 is tarnished and long in the tooth. Sony A7 III is more expensive, and Sony FE lenses are typically far less bang for the buck than comparable or optically superior Canon glass. 

If there were mirrorless equivalents by Canon or Nikon or Sony available with a range of similarly affordable lenses (decent consumer grade, "Non-L"), many people would buy those. Especially if the mirrorless system - body plus lenses in most frequently used focal length range - was smaller and lighter than a DSLR system.

re. mediocre: if decent (= a lot better than "mediocre", but not "stellar") and compact FF-sensor mirrorless cameras were available from Canon and Nikon - eg. Nikon D850 or Canon 5D IV functionality, performance and price - more people would buy those today than the DSLR versions. Even if native new mount lens selection was mostly in "roadmap status" and a simple adapter would be needed to continue using EF or F-mount glass.


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## Mikehit (May 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> re. mediocre: if decent (= a lot better than "mediocre", but not "stellar") and compact FF-sensor mirrorless cameras were available from Canon and Nikon - eg. Nikon D850 or Canon 5D IV functionality, performance and price - more people would buy those today than the DSLR versions.



That merely shows your personal prejudice, nothing more and nothing less.


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## fullstop (May 3, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > re. mediocre: if decent (= a lot better than "mediocre", but not "stellar") and compact FF-sensor mirrorless cameras were available from Canon and Nikon - eg. Nikon D850 or Canon 5D IV functionality, performance and price - more people would buy those today than the DSLR versions.
> ...



My opinion: if A7 III and A9 were not Sony cameras with Sony issues but Canon EOS cameras - they'd sell better than 6D II, 5D IV and 1DX II. Unfortunately no way to prove it yet. "Supply side is lacking".


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## Mikehit (May 3, 2018)

fullstop said:
 

> My opinion: if A7 III and A9 were not Sony cameras with Sony issues but Canon EOS cameras - they'd sell better than 6D II, 5D IV and 1DX II.



Why?
Assume EF mount (which they would have to be).


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## fullstop (May 3, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > My opinion: if A7 III and A9 were not Sony cameras with Sony issues but Canon EOS cameras - they'd sell better than 6D II, 5D IV and 1DX II.
> ...



no. assuming "A7" body in compact size, "A9" body sized as Sony. Both with new native mirrorless mount with a starting lineup of "decent" compact primes and zooms. Plus 2 adapters for existing EF glass, 1 simple extension tube, the other one similar to Sony adapter with pellicle mirror and Phase-AF.


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## Mikehit (May 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > fullstop said:
> ...



So what you mean is 'if Canon had gone full into mirrorless and developed a whole range of native glass to suit'

if that is the case, and if your assumptions are correct then surely Sony would have overtaken Canon by now after all these years of 'superiority'?

Are you AvTvM in disguise?


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## neuroanatomist (May 3, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Are you AvTvM in disguise?



Yes, he is. His babbling on about Sony's 'poorly chosen' mount parameters and his blatant assumptions that his needs represent the majority are a dead giveaway.


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## infared (May 3, 2018)

Woody said:


> infared said:
> 
> 
> > I did not misquote anyone. That is my interpretation of their verbiage.
> ...


So we agree...they are mediocre cameras. Sales does not mean that something is great.


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## Don Haines (May 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > fullstop said:
> ...



But your assumption is based on mirrorless cameras being small, which is a design criteria, not a technical requirement. There is a trade-off between having the body small and ergonomics. We all know that Sony chose small body, but that does not mean that Canon will. Canon appears to value the ergonomics quite highly, and that makes it more likely that their entry into FF mirrorless will be with a body of similar physical size/controls to it's existing FF cameras.

BTW, I got to play with one of those small bodied mirrorless cameras (from a company who's name shall not be mentioned  ) for the day yesterday. It had all the controls needed to operate, but everything was so small that it felt like a toy. The lenses were as big as my Canon lenses and it just did not feel "professional".... for a great many people going for a FF camera, that feel is one of the requirements. If all I want is small and decent quality, I'm going to get an Oly and save size and money with the lenses.... they have a bunch of F1.2 primes now!!!!!


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## Don Haines (May 3, 2018)

infared said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > infared said:
> ...



But the purpose of a corporation is to make a profit, and given the choice of making a product that sells well, or making a better product that sells poorly, they will pick the one that keeps the lights shining on the factory floor... One should never forget that it is the lower cost cameras that keep companies like Canon, Nikon, and yes, even Sony profitable, and it is the volume from the lower end users that helps keep the costs down on the higher end units....


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## Kit. (May 3, 2018)

infared said:


> kkamena said:
> 
> 
> > infared said:
> ...


No, it doesn't. It says that those whateverloggers don't really care if the camera does its job well.


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## scyrene (May 3, 2018)

infared said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > infared said:
> ...



But since there is no objective definition of 'good', and nobody can agree on precisely what it is, the only thing close to useful data is sales - which are a crude proxy for what the market as a whole thinks is 'good'.


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## kkamena (May 3, 2018)

infared said:


> kkamena said:
> 
> 
> > infared said:
> ...




Thank you for proving my point.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 4, 2018)

IF Canon cannot make a camera that mechanically cannot shoot and gets lagged in electronics, like the Sony does, then I see no point for Canon to make a high end competitor to the A7RIII.

I have lots Canon bodies, and Sony bodies. If I need a "on-field" journalistic or fast pace ruin/gun response camera, my 5D is ALWAYS with me. The stupid glitchy Sony's while I love in studio AND while they always come with me as I cross my fingers they will do a miracle...They simply don't. SOmetimes it works out, and other times or most, I have to set it aside and let the Canon do its work.

Canon will surely need to keep the existing line of lenses.

Here is a list of the TOP Sony features I find GREAT!
Nothing new, but I rely on this stuff...

NO AA FILTER...I cannot stress this enough, as I have posted saying it here for OVER a decade!
Live view with effect on and off.
Focus peaking
Silent shooting
Tilting screen
Self Timer flexibility
Programmable buttons

Tether shooting to PhaseOne C1 is nice
Something the SOny CANNOT even relate or compete with is the viewfinder. The current 5D viewfinder is a WORLD apart in seeing your subjects that you just toss the Sony aside. Canon will need to work on something about this. (See "Wishes" below).

I would love to see a second thread mount hole on maybe the side of the body. I think cameras can evolve as multi point and use devices to help adapt to different straps or rigs people want to use, and it just makes it easier to have more than one mount point. (I often use a rig in studio with field monitor, vs then needing to disassemble things to use a strap. With 2 points I can leave the rig plate on and just add a strap to another thread.

*Wishes....
What would be revolutionary is a monocular design "eyepiece" Meaning the entire camera would cover the one eye like a goggle. SO its not a metal resting on your cheek, but a cushioned foam that isolates your eye., and the body is shaped like a goggle. A adaptable accessory would be a head strap/mount so you can use it hands free, or at least with remote. This would be an amazing evolution in a very pro level camera.


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## The Fat Fish (May 5, 2018)

I hope Canons FF mirrorless comes soon but I also hope it's not mirrorless for the sake of mirrorless. The success of Sony, Fuji and others is only partly due to mirrorless. Their main success has come because they offer a wealth of features for a competitive price.

Canon need to leave the 6DII and M50 attitude behind and offer a really well spec'd camera for a really good price. That's why all these new mirrorless cameras are doing so well.

In a declining market you need to excite potential buyers.


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## Orangutan (May 5, 2018)

The Fat Fish said:


> I hope Canons FF mirrorless comes soon but I also hope it's not mirrorless for the sake of mirrorless. The success of Sony, Fuji and others is only partly due to mirrorless. Their main success has come because they offer a wealth of features for a competitive price.


Which features, aside from the sensor?



> Canon need to leave the 6DII and M50 attitude behind and offer a really well spec'd camera for a really good price.


Why? Canon is a for-profit business -- they're not in a competition to get the best reviews from u-t00b-3rs, they're trying to make a sustained profit. So far, they're doing this much better than their competitors. What do you suggest Canon change to gain greater market share and profit?



> In a declining market you need to excite potential buyers.


True, but you shouldn't abandon your loyal current buyers.


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## The Fat Fish (May 5, 2018)

Orangutan said:


> The Fat Fish said:
> 
> 
> > I hope Canons FF mirrorless comes soon but I also hope it's not mirrorless for the sake of mirrorless. The success of Sony, Fuji and others is only partly due to mirrorless. Their main success has come because they offer a wealth of features for a competitive price.
> ...



Great 4K video, IBIS, Dual SD Cards, 10FPS for $2000. 



> Canon need to leave the 6DII and M50 attitude behind and offer a really well spec'd camera for a really good price.


Why? Canon is a for-profit business -- they're not in a competition to get the best reviews from u-t00b-3rs, they're trying to make a sustained profit. So far, they're doing this much better than their competitors. What do you suggest Canon change to gain greater market share and profit?

It's early days. I don't see that attitude lasting decades. It's worked for now but Sony and Fuji were tiny players 5 years ago, now they are much bigger. It's far too early to declare the death of any company but I really think the market will change.



> In a declining market you need to excite potential buyers.


True, but you shouldn't abandon your loyal current buyers.

Adding features won't cause you to abandon current loyal buyers at all. It WILL stop those moving to other systems.


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## dak723 (May 5, 2018)

The Fat Fish said:


> I hope Canons FF mirrorless comes soon but I also hope it's not mirrorless for the sake of mirrorless. The success of Sony, Fuji and others is only partly due to mirrorless. Their main success has come because they offer a wealth of features for a competitive price.



Obviously, different buyers desire different things. In my experience with Sony, they offered a wealth of features - many that didn't work nearly as well as advertised. For me, that's a huge negative - a far bigger negative than if Canon offers less features, but their features all work very well.


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## Isaacheus (May 6, 2018)

dak723 said:


> The Fat Fish said:
> 
> 
> > I hope Canons FF mirrorless comes soon but I also hope it's not mirrorless for the sake of mirrorless. The success of Sony, Fuji and others is only partly due to mirrorless. Their main success has come because they offer a wealth of features for a competitive price.
> ...



I'm not going to defend Sony by saying that all the features work well/as hoped, but I do feel that a number of the features Canon have added recently also have a number of negatives, in video especially. The problem is compounded more by Canon not offering as many features either. 

A great example of this would be the 4k implementation; all the latest Sonys offer fairly decent 4k in both full frame and super 35 mode, while the 6d mk2 doesn't have it at all, and the 5d mk4 has a significant crop, but also a storage heavy codec. Whether or not this will be the end of the world/a deciding factor, but it is a negative on the Canon side. The Sony ha been known to over heat with longer record times (I believe this has mostly been fixed?), so I'm not saying either is perfect. 

On the otherhand, I'm pleased that Canon at least tried to include 4k in the m50, rather than just not bother at all like in the 6d mk2. 



Orangutan said:


> > In a declining market you need to excite potential buyers.
> >
> > True, but you shouldn't abandon your loyal current buyers.





I don't see how including/offering new features is abandoning loyal customers, I'd see not including them/not trying to compete with other offerings as doing that - it's exactly why I now have a Canon and a Sony body, rather than 2 Canon bodies, I can't get a single Canon body that has the features I want. The bigger frustration was that Canon have those features spread over multiple bodies, so it's not even a case where it wasn't possible


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## canon1dxman (May 6, 2018)

> BTW, I got to play with one of those small bodied mirrorless cameras (from a company who's name shall not be mentioned  ) for the day yesterday. It had all the controls needed to operate, but everything was so small that it felt like a toy. The lenses were as big as my Canon lenses and it just did not feel "professional".... for a great many people going for a FF camera, that feel is one of the requirements. If all I want is small and decent quality, I'm going to get an Oly and save size and money with the lenses.... they have a bunch of F1.2 primes now!!!!!



My experience exactly when I tried the A9 last summer. Park Cameras recent blog about the A7II agreed. Great feature set blah blah etc but totally imbalanced when using long lenses.

I try to like them but so far, without success.


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## The Fat Fish (May 6, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> I'm not going to defend Sony by saying that all the features work well/as hoped, but I do feel that a number of the features Canon have added recently also have a number of negatives, in video especially. The problem is compounded more by Canon not offering as many features either.
> 
> A great example of this would be the 4k implementation; all the latest Sonys offer fairly decent 4k in both full frame and super 35 mode, while the 6d mk2 doesn't have it at all, and the 5d mk4 has a significant crop, but also a storage heavy codec. Whether or not this will be the end of the world/a deciding factor, but it is a negative on the Canon side. The Sony ha been known to over heat with longer record times (I believe this has mostly been fixed?), so I'm not saying either is perfect.
> 
> On the otherhand, I'm pleased that Canon at least tried to include 4k in the m50, rather than just not bother at all like in the 6d mk2.



The lack of video features is the most deal breaking thing for me, especially considering it was Canon who started the video DSLR market with the 550D and 5DII.

I also wish the M50 did not have 4K as it's such a poor implementation of it, it does not deserve to be on the marketing material. Canon likes to do things like this and market pointless "features" (Digital Video IS).


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## Isaacheus (May 6, 2018)

The Fat Fish said:


> Isaacheus said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not going to defend Sony by saying that all the features work well/as hoped, but I do feel that a number of the features Canon have added recently also have a number of negatives, in video especially. The problem is compounded more by Canon not offering as many features either.
> ...



I agree the implementation is not great, but I do like that Canon seem to be trying more with it, and hopefully they'll see that people aren't that happy with the current form, and rectify that. Given the market point of it at least. I'd still be more disappointed if the 6d mk2 couldn't use dpaf with 4k, if they'd put it in, given the cost etc

I can easily see where you're coming from too though


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## BillB (May 6, 2018)

The Fat Fish said:


> Isaacheus said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not going to defend Sony by saying that all the features work well/as hoped, but I do feel that a number of the features Canon have added recently also have a number of negatives, in video especially. The problem is compounded more by Canon not offering as many features either.
> ...


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## BillB (May 6, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> The Fat Fish said:
> 
> 
> > Isaacheus said:
> ...



Have either of you actually used the M50 to shoot 4K video?


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## Mikehit (May 6, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> I'm not going to defend Sony by saying that all the features work well/as hoped, but I do feel that a number of the features Canon have added recently also have a number of negatives, in video especially. The problem is compounded more by Canon not offering as many features either.



The number of times I have read comments like 'I don't use 4K myself but Canon have to include it to remain competitive'. It makes me wonder how people arrive at their buying decisions. Fortunately I think most Canon customers buy based on what they need and how Canon fits that need.


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## fullstop (May 6, 2018)

"convergence" stills images and video is way overhyped IMHO. While a few people really appreciate having one camera to capture both stills and video, majority of (potential) still camera buyers does not seriously record video. So no need whatsoever to put video capture into each and every camera. 

I'd prefer Canon to take an approach similar to Sony but even more strict. Offer some or all future (non-cine) EOS cameras in 2 versions: 
S = "Stills-optimized" = base model, no video out whatsoever 
V = "Video optimized" = same as base, but additionally with best possible 4k implementation, optimal video codec. image pipeline, processor/DIGIC, audio processor, large heatsink, everything beefed up to withstand even lengthy video recordings. Menus filled to the brim with "video-centric" options. Zebras, microphones, mic and headphone jacks, all sorts of video-out connectors and whatever. Plus of course a nice red dedicated "record video" button. Charge 25%-50% more for V model compared to same sensored base model to offset cost of all the the video extras that are not needed - or even counterproductive - for stills capture. 

win win. Those who really need/want convergence can get it at an adequate price. And those who just constantly whimper for 4k and all sorts of video features got to stop whimpering in forums.


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## BillB (May 6, 2018)

fullstop said:


> "convergence" stills images and video is way overhyped IMHO. While a few people really appreciate having one camera to capture both stills and video, majority of (potential) still camera buyers does not seriously record video. So no need whatsoever to put video capture into each and every camera.
> 
> I'd prefer Canon to take an approach similar to Sony but even more strict. Offer some or all future (non-cine) EOS cameras in 2 versions:
> S = "Stills-optimized" = base model, no video out whatsoever
> ...



And where is the fun in that? I guess people could still whine about the price of the V model.


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## Mikehit (May 6, 2018)

BillB said:


> And where is the fun in that? I guess people could still whine about the price of the V model.



And why the S model is so close to the price of the V model. After all it costs a lot of money to instal video.


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## Isaacheus (May 6, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Isaacheus said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not going to defend Sony by saying that all the features work well/as hoped, but I do feel that a number of the features Canon have added recently also have a number of negatives, in video especially. The problem is compounded more by Canon not offering as many features either.
> ...



I think you've misunderstood me there: I'm not suggesting that 4k is the be all, end all of features that people make their decisions on, it's certainly not what I used. It's simply an example of where the difference is easily seen. In my case specifically, I wanted a full frame camera with high dr (Ala the 5dmk4) try a tilt screen, and dual card slots. In one body. Bonuses for other features like 4k, manual focus aids etc.

I do use 4k now I have it, but it was something I could have lived without when I was buying a new body. My point was really that Canon weren't/aren't offering the features i was interested in, so I started looking elsewhere. And the features they have started offering can have negatives to them as well (someone was stating this was the problem with Sony)


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## Isaacheus (May 6, 2018)

BillB said:


> Isaacheus said:
> 
> 
> > The Fat Fish said:
> ...



Haven't used the M50 as it doesn't fit my uses, not against trying it but I'm not going to buy one to confirm the lack of dpaf means it doesn't work suit. 
I've used other cameras to shoot 4k, the biggest downside /negative I can see with the M50 is the lack of dpaf/good af

Edit: dpaf in 4k


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## fullstop (May 6, 2018)

EOS M50 does have DPAF. No idea whether it is operative in video mode, but i don't ever capture videos, so wayne for me. May buy an M50 once price comes down to lowest priced DSRL/Rebel.


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## Talys (May 6, 2018)

fullstop said:


> EOS M50 does have DPAF. No idea whether it is operative in video mode, but i don't ever capture videos, so wayne for me. May buy an M50 once price comes down to lowest priced DSRL/Rebel.



Sure it does. It uses DPAF for everything other than 4k video.

I played with one a while the other day; It's not bad, and has a better viewfinder than the M5 (frankly, it's awesome for a $750 MILC). It might be a great camera for lots of people, but taking nearly out all the physical dials and buttons makes it a no-go for me. I've almost bought the M5 so many times, but now that I see the M50 EVF, I think I'll wait for the M5 Mark II. The fully articulating touchscreen is an awesome plus, too, and I assume it will make it into future M5.

It could have just been me being unfamiliar with the camera, but there are a couple of things I'm not crazy about on the M50, other than the lack of physical controls. First, single point AF - I couldn't figure out how to get it to a small rectangle. The single "point" is a really big box (it's a smaller box on the M5, but it still isn't tiny). And second, the M5, there isn't a way to auto focus magnify. I wish there was. The three-step process of "magnify button, magnification dial, manual focus" is too cumbersome.


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## fullstop (May 7, 2018)

way too large AF fields is my main issue as well on all Canon EOS M cameras. actually AF area is even bigger than the rectangle shown ... YUCK!


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## pj1974 (May 7, 2018)

Hi all

I have the Canon M5. I like the control / use of the camera with a number of control dials AND an EVF better than limitations in each. (one reason why I didn't get the M6)

The Canon M50 is a great indication that Canon are going to continue to provide decent features in their EOS-M cameras, e.g. the M5 mkII, etc.
While I don’t take many videos, and at this stage don’t care for 4K, it will be ok to have it in as a well-implemented feature for the future, even in the budget models.

I also find the standard ‘large’ square AF point too large, so I use the smaller box by default – e.g. for my landscape / still life images (even though this limits one of the AF operations, tracking I think).
But with auto-tracking and continuous AF, I want a larger square anyway, so it’s not a big issue. 

Might be playing with a M50 in a local store’s “Canon event” later this week…. Let’s see!

8) PJ


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## Talys (May 7, 2018)

pj1974 said:


> I also find the standard ‘large’ square AF point too large, so I use the smaller box by default – e.g. for my landscape / still life images (even though this limits one of the AF operations, tracking I think).
> But with auto-tracking and continuous AF, I want a larger square anyway, so it’s not a big issue.
> 
> Might be playing with a M50 in a local store’s “Canon event” later this week…. Let’s see!
> ...



Let me know what you think, please!

I am not super-familiar with the M5, so it was a bit hard for me to gauge fairly. Also, let me know if you can get the small square AF on the M50 going. The M5 square is the same size as a DSLR DPAF "live view" square, right? I'm ok with that for a sub-$1k (anyways, the Sony A7Riii has about the same size square); the big square on the M50 is just too inaccurate for me.

I would love an AF mode the equivalent of Spot AF on a DLSR (Square with dot). And on a $2k+ body, I'd like to see expanding single point AF.

By the way, one major plus to Canon: the M50 Eye AF is AWESOME compared to Sony, except that it is not enabled in AI Servo, I assume, because M50's price point. Sony Eye AF requires that you AF the subject, then press another button (a physically different one) to engage Eye AF. Canon Eye AF just requires that you AF the subject -- as long as Eye AF is enabled, if a face is detected, the nearest eye is autofocused. It worked really well, IMO.


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## Isaacheus (May 7, 2018)

Talys said:


> pj1974 said:
> 
> 
> > I also find the standard ‘large’ square AF point too large, so I use the smaller box by default – e.g. for my landscape / still life images (even though this limits one of the AF operations, tracking I think).
> ...



Did the sony you try not just eye af when you hit the assigned button? Mine seems to work fine without using standard af first.
How quick is the Canon version? I'm keen to see how they implement it in the higher spec versions, it'd be excellent if they could get it in af-servo. It's a feature that I'd really miss if I went to something without it

Does it work in all dual modes or just a few? I've heard mixed reports on that.


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## Talys (May 7, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > pj1974 said:
> ...



Sony version requires that you assign two buttons: one for AF, and the other for eye AF. If you don't do that, Eye AF only works if the face you want to eye AF on is already nearly in focus and in the target area. Or, if you have a couple of people beside each other, it may pick the wrong one, if you don't AF the subject first.

Canon version is just a single button: as long as you're in face detect mode, you press AF and it immediately chooses the eye of the person you AF on. There's never a green rectangle on the subject; just the green rectangle on the eye.

The Eye AF is instant; there's no hunting or guessing if it finds an eye. If it doesn't think there's an eye, it just AF's as usual.

The most annoying thing about the Sony version is that it requires a second button. It would be great if you could set a Custom mode for portraits, and then back button AF always looked for the eye of the subject in whatever focus mode area you have. To be honest, I'd probably be ok with a little bit of lag or hunt with Eye AF (it would bug me, but I'd get over it), because Eye AF is something for portraits, not fast-moving action.

The reason it can't really work that way on Sony, though, I think, is that autofocus is based on PDAF, and eye AF is based on contrast detect AF. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong, of course =X.


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## Isaacheus (May 8, 2018)

Talys said:


> Isaacheus said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...



Just so I'm following you right, the Canon version doesn't have a separate button to activate eye af, so it's active all the time? Or can you set a button to deactivate it if needed?


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## fullstop (May 8, 2018)

no separate button for Eye-AF. Is activated/deactivated in menu ... at any time. 

Most advanced (Eye-) DPAF implementation atm in canon EOS M50. Good description some way down in this article: http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2018/eos-m50/eos-m50-autofocus.shtml



> This is an exciting new feature, introduced with the EOS M50 camera. When its AF Method is set to Face Detect + Tracking, the entire active AF area (see the colored outlines in the graphics above) is used for focusing. And, if a human face is detected, the Face Detect technology has been enhanced — the camera doesn’t simply focus on the most prominent face in the scene. Instead, it now is able to detect the nearest eye on that face, and puts a smaller focus box on that eye. If that person moves around the picture area, the Eye Detection AF continues to track that eye, as long as it remains visible.
> 
> When Eye Detection AF is active, you’ll see a large, outer box indicating that Face Detection has recognized a human face. And within it, a smaller box will surround the actual eye that is being concentrated upon for Eye Detection AF — such as in the following simulated graphic:
> 
> ...


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## jolyonralph (May 8, 2018)

Talys said:


> The reason it can't really work that way on Sony, though, I think, is that autofocus is based on PDAF, and eye AF is based on contrast detect AF. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong, of course =X.



I don't think this has anything to do with it. Eye AF is done with image processing, the focus method is entirely unconnected with this. There's no reason that Sony's Eye AF couldn't work exactly the same as Canon's if they programmed it to.


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## Talys (May 8, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> Just so I'm following you right, the Canon version doesn't have a separate button to activate eye af, so it's active all the time? Or can you set a button to deactivate it if needed?



Correct. Eye AF is either on or off. If Eye AF is enable and you set AF to Face/AI mode (as opposed to zone or single point), shutter half press finds the eye if it's there. It is actually so fast that I could defocus to infinity and just click the shutter on someone 4ft away (without half press) and the M50 AFs on the eye and takes the photo nearly instantly with a straight full press. I was very impressed. 

On the M50, eye AF feels more like an idiot proof autofocus for portraits than anything else. The fast way to turn it off is simply to switch AF mode to point.


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## fullstop (May 8, 2018)

Talys said:


> On the M50, eye AF feels more like an idiot proof autofocus for portraits than anything else.



What EF-M lens/es did you use? The "specially AF enabled" ones (28 Macro, 18-150, 55-200) or a "regular" EF-M? 
Respectively, any "real life" differences in practice [other than 149 AF fields vs. 99] between lenses on EOS M50?


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## Isaacheus (May 8, 2018)

Talys said:


> Isaacheus said:
> 
> 
> > Just so I'm following you right, the Canon version doesn't have a separate button to activate eye af, so it's active all the time? Or can you set a button to deactivate it if needed?
> ...



Ah that's good, I can't imagine many situations where you wouldn't want it running for people /portraits but it's better when it doesn't take a menu dive to disable


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## Talys (May 9, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > Isaacheus said:
> ...



Yes, I agree. I hope that on more pro-ish bodies, we'll get to simply program Eye on/off program into C modes as well, and if we're lucky, Canon will also make it remember the setting separately for each of the exposure modes, too.

There are some edge cases, I suppose, like on a dslr withvery shallow DoF situation, if someone is angled and close to me and I really want to maximize the bokeh, I AF closer to the bridge of the nose to hopefully get both eyes in sharp focus, but... Whatever... I'd be just as happy always getting the near eye and stopping down a little bit if necessary.


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## BillB (May 9, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > Isaacheus said:
> ...





Talys said:


> Isaacheus said:
> 
> 
> > Just so I'm following you right, the Canon version doesn't have a separate button to activate eye af, so it's active all the time? Or can you set a button to deactivate it if needed?
> ...


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## NorskHest (May 9, 2018)

Diltiazem said:


> Canon and Nikon just need to make their mirrorless compatible with existing lenses. Sony is toast.


 Canon continues to put out new EF lenses, I do not think they would put out something that would not work with all their new developments


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## Pure Photo N.I (May 10, 2018)

Hoping Canon can do a 6d sized mirrorless body the Sony options are too small for me.


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