# B&H Agrees to Settle Outstanding Government Claims



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 17, 2017)

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<p><strong>New York – August 14, 2017</strong> — <a href="https://bhpho.to/2mrnL4l">B&H</a> announced today that it has settled a 2016 case with the Department of Labor’s Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP).</p>
<p>While we are pleased to conclude the case, B&H rejects the OFCCP’s allegations — we settled this matter to let us focus on our day-to-day work of providing excellent service to our customers, to avoid costly and time-consuming litigation, and to grow our Federal government business (the OFCCP oversees employers that do business with the government).</p>

<p>The OFCCP allegations pertained to certain hiring, promotion, and compensation practices. While B&H categorically denies the allegations, we settled to avoid the distraction of litigation. As a government contractor, we determined settlement was in our best interest. B&H is pleased that this issue has been resolved, and we are confident we have the measures in place to comply with all federal hiring and employment law.</p>
<p>B&H is pleased that an overwhelming portion of the settlement payout will end up with our current and former employees. Our success is a result of the hard work and dedication of our employees.</p>
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## AvTvM (Aug 19, 2017)

meh. rather cryptic/intransparent article and company statement. raises more questions for me than it answers. 

luckily, other sources provide more specific information:
https://petapixel.com/2017/08/16/bh-pay-3-22m-settle-lawsuit-filed-dept-labor/
http://www.thedailybeast.com/americas-largest-indie-photo-store-bandh-sued-for-segregated-bathrooms
http://forward.com/news/359927/bh-photo-closing-brooklyn-warehouses-where-workers-unionized/


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## MrFotoFool (Aug 21, 2017)

The three additional links are informative and the second (daily beast) is particularly troubling. I have only ordered from BH a couple times and will likely never do so again.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 21, 2017)

Before we all get on a burn them at the stakes vibe I would point out that this kind of thing is the inevitable result of things like no sales tax paid by most people, 'free shipping', and my perennial annoyance, unlimited no fault returns. 

These things cost money, if you want the price kept down this is one of the ways the savings are made. Can you imagine buying three lenses at your local shop, using them all for a week then taking two of them back for full refunds? Yet not expecting anybody else to have ever opened the box of your three!

Not condoning anything that smacks of bad, unsafe, or discriminatory practices, just pointing out it is the customers demands for price and speed and service that puts pressure on retailers to do this kind of thing.


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## Jopa (Aug 22, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> Before we all get on a burn them at the stakes vibe I would point out that this kind of thing is the inevitable result of things like no sales tax paid by most people, 'free shipping', and my perennial annoyance, unlimited no fault returns.
> 
> These things cost money, if you want the price kept down this is one of the ways the savings are made. Can you imagine buying three lenses at your local shop, using them all for a week then taking two of them back for full refunds? Yet not expecting anybody else to have ever opened the box of your three!
> 
> Not condoning anything that smacks of bad, unsafe, or discriminatory practices, just pointing out it is the customers demands for price and speed and service that puts pressure on retailers to do this kind of thing.



Sales tax aside, Amazon sells the same stuff at the same retail prices, but I haven't heard anything like that about Amazon.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 22, 2017)

Jopa said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Before we all get on a burn them at the stakes vibe I would point out that this kind of thing is the inevitable result of things like no sales tax paid by most people, 'free shipping', and my perennial annoyance, unlimited no fault returns.
> ...



Are you for real?

http://www.salon.com/2014/02/23/worse_than_wal_mart_amazons_sick_brutality_and_secret_history_of_ruthlessly_intimidating_workers/
http://www.businessinsider.com/brutal-conditions-in-amazons-warehouses-2013-8
http://gawker.com/true-stories-of-life-as-an-amazon-worker-1002568208

Abuse is abuse, it might be 'different' from B&H's abuse, but it is every bit as bad.


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## Jopa (Aug 22, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> Jopa said:
> 
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> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



Oh wow. Then we should just stick to local camera stores I guess...


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## Ozarker (Aug 23, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> Before we all get on a burn them at the stakes vibe I would point out that this kind of thing is the inevitable result of things like no sales tax paid by most people, 'free shipping', and my perennial annoyance, unlimited no fault returns.
> 
> These things cost money, if you want the price kept down this is one of the ways the savings are made. Can you imagine buying three lenses at your local shop, using them all for a week then taking two of them back for full refunds? Yet not expecting anybody else to have ever opened the box of your three!
> 
> Not condoning anything that smacks of bad, unsafe, or discriminatory practices, just pointing out it is the customers demands for price and speed and service that puts pressure on retailers to do this kind of thing.



I fail to understand how B&H not charging sales tax to out of state buyers keeps prices down. B&H doesn't pay sales tax on those sales either. B&H is simply taking advantage of a loophole in New York's sales tax collection regulations. In fact, it allows B&H to make sales that it wouldn't otherwise make. That means B&H makes more money, not less.

B&H having separate bathrooms for other races doesn't save money either. It costs more.

Promoting whites over other races also costs nothing.

None of this has to do with B&H providing returns or free shipping. None.

In fact, the HR policies of B&H cost the company a huge chunk of change. There was no cost savings from these policies to provide customers with free shipping, no sales tax, or returns.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 23, 2017)

CanonFanBoy said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Before we all get on a burn them at the stakes vibe I would point out that this kind of thing is the inevitable result of things like no sales tax paid by most people, 'free shipping', and my perennial annoyance, unlimited no fault returns.
> ...



That is because you are taking a myopic view of the the situation. Sales tax is an important component of local government revenue, health and safety inspectors are local government employees. If we all avoid sales tax then employee conditions get worse. It isn't a B&H specific thing, it is an endemic problem we have pushed retailers into and law makers can't or won't keep up. If I was a retail customer and bought from B&H and didn't pay sales tax the employees working conditions in Florida get worse.

Nothing has nothing to do with anything. 

Separate bathrooms only cost more if you build them, if the building already has more than one toilet putting a sign on them costs very little, verbal instructions cost next to nothing. I have worked in installations with 'segregated' bathrooms, in that instance the bathrooms had keypads, no signs and I suppose the keypads cost a small amount. Have you ever heard of executive bathrooms? I'd say they smack of segregation, financial segregation, yet nobody hears anything about that. There is a grey area between maintaining a separate bathroom for people who need to maintain a higher level of cleanliness and appearance and 'segregation'.

Promoting is another sticky wicket. Take this example, it takes six months to train somebody for a position, the job can be done by a male or female. Your historical statistics have shown 80% of women you train to do that job leave within 2 years due to pregnancy, yet 80% of men stay in the job more than 2 years. Do you set a policy of sexual discrimination or do you just trend to training men to fill future positions?

How about a communications position? If people have English as a second language they might be stronger in multilingual positions, or weaker in predominately single language situations. If you find people with a strong accent take an average of 30% longer per call at a call center what implications does that have on future hires?

Nothing has nothing to do with anything.

So if B&H (any retailer) had a bigger margin they could pad these seemingly discriminatory issues, they don't, we the consumer have pushed retailers to ever smaller margins, Amazon work on a 1% profit margin of turnover, that 10% increase in an employees efficiency across the board adds up to real differences in operating costs. We, the consumer have to take some responsibility for these situations we find terrible when they are pushed in our faces, just like factory farming, GM crops, military spending waste etc etc.

Nothing has nothing to do with anything.......


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## Ozarker (Aug 23, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



1. New York has a State Department of Health and Safety. But, let's take your position that not paying the sales tax causes employee work conditions to get worse. That's an assumption and with no proof that it costs B&H anything. Your stated position is that not collecting sales tax from out of state buyers costs B&H. It doesn't. B&H wasn't forced to segregate bathrooms, or promote whites over minorities, because of not collecting sales tax. Besides, this is a federal case. Even if it was a State Department of Health and Safety case, you position doesn't hold water on that count. The New York City Department Health and Safety only manages mayoral agencies.

2. More bathrooms cost more to maintain than fewer bathrooms. However, I will agree with you; the cost is minimal. So again, it has nothing to do with the bottom line at B&H. I has nothing to do with sales tax or returns.

3. Sales taxes, when they are collected from out of state buyers, are collected for the state the buyer resides in. So I, living in Nevada, pay no sales tax in N.Y. when I order online. Again, a savings for B&H administratively because it doesn't have to keep books for 50 different state sales tax collectors. It has nothing to do with returns, free shipping, segregated bathrooms, or promotions of whites over minorities.

4. You assume the minorities being passed over do not speak fluent English and have thick accents. A multilingual person is an advantage for a company from a communications standpoint.

5. You assume that B&H pays for the shipping. Nope. The consumer pays the shipping. It is hidden in the price of the products and the costs are spread out into the margins of the products. It just isn't added on to the final price of the products. The end user pays for everything.

6. "Seemingly discriminatory" issues due to poor profit margins? Please. If you can call segregated restrooms based on race, and minorities being passed over for promotion because of race "seemingly discriminatory", then you have a real personal problem. Especially when you blame it on competition, not collecting sales tax, free shipping, and returns. You want to say, "There is a grey area between maintaining a separate bathroom for people who need to maintain a higher level of cleanliness and appearance." You want to compare that to race based bathroom access? You want to say that inoperable and unsanitary race based restrooms are the same thing as the superior restrooms provided for white workers? 

Tell me, were segregated drinking fountains, bathrooms, dining areas, business entrances, bus seats, etc. "seemingly discriminatory" in the Jim Crow law segregationist south? Was all that due to poor tax collections? Shipping costs? Competition? Returns of some kind? No. It was due to racism... just like that practiced by B&H. That is far different from Amazon and Walmart my friend. Shame on you. BTW: It wasn't the bus companies that segregated the bus seats, etc. It was the law.

Maybe I am myopic, but you are blind.

I am Latino. I speak English just fine, but have been genuinely (not "seemingly") discriminated against. My dad is Latino. He speaks English as a second language and has zero Spanish accent when he does. He had to sit at the back of the bus when he was a kid. He has been genuinely discriminated against.

Again, shame on you for trying to pin this on profit margins. That is just sick. You can keep trying to defend your blind position all you want. You are still wrong.

The problem is not returns, sales tax, competition, or low margins. The problem is racism. That is plain as day to me. Separate bathrooms isn't racism? It's because of the business climate? My gosh. You have the nerve to call somebody myopic? You want to compare that to executive bathrooms?

"Upon information and belief, Hispanic warehouse workers had no option but to use unsanitary and often inoperable restrooms, which were separate and apart from superior restrooms used by the white warehouse workers."

The company settled a similar discrimination case with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission for $4.3 million in 2007. That case alleged the store paid Hispanic employees less than non-Hispanic workers and failed to promote them or provide them health benefits "based on their national origin."

B&H has a history of this that goes way back.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 23, 2017)

Tell me, have you ever lived and worked as a minority in one of the most racist (according to the UN) countries in the world? I have. Have you lived where you have to carry ID papers at all times and failure to do so results in instant arrest? I have. Have you lived and worked in a country where as a foreigner you have no rights what so ever, even though you are legally there? I have. Have you been refused service because of your skin color? I have. Have you worked in locations where true racism is open and unexcused? I have. Have you employed people of different races in all those kinds of locations? I have. Have you had to work in places where the kinds of bathroom 'segregation' being talked about is enforced? I have. I have been on both sides of the argument regarding segregated bathrooms and have got in trouble for allowing people who weren't permitted to use the wrong bathroom.


I believe I live in the real world and see the connection between customers and retailers employees, i see grey not black and white. That doesn't for one second mean I condone any of it, it just means I have experienced how these thing happen, and it isn't necessarily as overt as it seems in the end. Poor warehouse working conditions are not limited to B&H, all big box retailers are working incredibly tight margins brought on by the competitive nature of the business model and the very tight demands of the customers, us.


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## Ozarker (Aug 23, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> Tell me, have you ever lived and worked as a minority in one of the most racist (according to the UN) countries in the world? I have. Have you lived where you have to carry ID papers at all times and failure to do so results in instant arrest? I have. Have you lived and worked in a country where as a foreigner you have no rights what so ever, even though you are legally there? I have. Have you been refused service because of your skin color? I have. Have you worked in locations where true racism is open and unexcused? I have. Have you employed people of different races in all those kinds of locations? I have. Have you had to work in places where the kinds of bathroom 'segregation' being talked about is enforced? I have. I have been on both sides of the argument regarding segregated bathrooms and have got in trouble for allowing people who weren't permitted to use the wrong bathroom.
> 
> 
> I believe I live in the real world and see the connection between customers and retailers employees, i see grey not black and white. That doesn't for one second mean I condone any of it, it just means I have experienced how these thing happen, and it isn't necessarily as overt as it seems in the end. Poor warehouse working conditions are not limited to B&H, all big box retailers are working incredibly tight margins brought on by the competitive nature of the business model and the very tight demands of the customers, us.



Again, competition or business model or sales tax collections have not a thing to do with segregating bathrooms based on race, promotions based on race, or not providing health insurance based on national origin. B&H has had to settle before for the same reasons before. Where you lived and worked doesn't matter. What the UN says in this case doesn't matter. You got in trouble for the same thing B&H did? GOOD! Did it happen to you TWICE? Did you have to settle cases for millions of dollars? GOOD!

Don't come around acting like there is a grey area on this one. There isn't. Once? Maybe. Twice in ten years? Nope. Your experience in another country is completely irrelevant here in the USA. That you employed minorities is also irrelevant and makes you no more righteous. Again, it is you trying to defend the untenable position you took in this case; trying to say it may not have happened, and if it did, it is because of the lack of sales tax collections, returns, competition, etc. Shame on you again. Shame on you for trying to justify the position, also, because you happened to work in some crappy country. What is wrong with you?


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## privatebydesign (Aug 23, 2017)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Again, competition or business model or sales tax collections have not a thing to do with segregating bathrooms based on race, promotions based on race, or not providing health insurance based on national origin. B&H has had to settle before for the same reasons before. Where you lived and worked doesn't matter. What the UN says in this case doesn't matter. You got in trouble for the same thing B&H did? GOOD! Did it happen to you TWICE? Did you have to settle cases for millions of dollars? GOOD!
> 
> Don't come around acting like there is a grey area on this one. There isn't. Once? Maybe. Twice in ten years? Nope. Your experience in another country is completely irrelevant here in the USA. That you employed minorities is also irrelevant. Again, it is you trying to defend the untenable position you took in this case; trying to say it may not have happened, and if it did, it is because of the lack of sales tax collections, returns, competition, etc. Shame on you again. Shame on you for trying to justify the position, also, because you happened to work in some crappy country. What is wrong with you?



It's funny how we perceive what is written. I got in trouble for allowing people who were not supposed to use a bathroom to use it! I was on the side of equality.

Maybe you should re-read my other comments and you might start to understand what I am saying, most of your conclusion shows a distinct lack of comprehension of my actual points.


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## Ozarker (Aug 23, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Again, competition or business model or sales tax collections have not a thing to do with segregating bathrooms based on race, promotions based on race, or not providing health insurance based on national origin. B&H has had to settle before for the same reasons before. Where you lived and worked doesn't matter. What the UN says in this case doesn't matter. You got in trouble for the same thing B&H did? GOOD! Did it happen to you TWICE? Did you have to settle cases for millions of dollars? GOOD!
> ...



I comprehend your point perfectly: The racism at B&H is due to not making sales tax collections, competition, business climate, returns, free shipping, and unicorns.

It is funny how you try to turn all that around by finding one oopsie in my last response. Maybe you should read your OP.

"Before we all get on a burn them at the stakes vibe I would point out that this kind of thing is the inevitable result of things like no sales tax paid by most people, 'free shipping', and my perennial annoyance, unlimited no fault returns. "

Yeah. That caused segregated restrooms based on race, not providing health insurance based on national origin, and passing over for promotion, and lower pay for the same job, etc. Very good. Got it! I don't know how I missed that. Duh!

Oh yeah, thick accents too.

You want to blame poor warehouse working conditions? Fine. But those things you mention don't just affect minority employees. It affects all races in that warehouse equally.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 23, 2017)

Oh boy, take your blinkers off you fool. 

Do you think B&H employed racist practices in their warehouses because it made them less money? Do you think the management went to work one day and said, " hmm, I hate latinos I'm going to take time out of my day to think of ways to discriminate against them"? And then B&H senior managers said, "sounds good let's do that"? 

The basis of the complaint is that the conditions, because of the makeup of the workforce, could be considered racist. My point is that most big box retail warehouse workers are abused, B&H are bad, but in general no worse than Amazon according to the links I provided previously. I do not condone any of it, I just draw the conclusion that we, the customers, are so price sensitive we must accept some culpability for that. 

If you choose to take some farcical highground and say 'it isn't my fault, it is B&H's fault' then I can't help you. If you can't see it is us, the customers, that indirectly create the circumstances that lead to warehouse worker conditions then you are just too nieve to have an adult conversation with.

Take this analogy. Chemical weapons dropped by an Air Force, who is culpable? The pilot, the maker of the bomb, the maker of the chemicals, the head of the Air Force, the leader of the country, the population of the country that did it and supported it? You are saying it is the Air Force's fault only, you don't allow for any grey area of it arose out of a set of circumstances that no one person had control of but many people could have stopped.


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## Ozarker (Aug 23, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> Oh boy, take your blinkers off you fool.
> 
> Do you think B&H employed racist practices in their warehouses because it made them less money? Do you think the management went to work one day and said, " hmm, I hate latinos I'm going to take time out of my day to think of ways to discriminate against them"? And then B&H senior managers said, "sounds good let's do that"?
> 
> ...



Consumers did not cause segregated restrooms, not providing health insurance based on national origin, being left out of promotions based on race, etc.

Consumers did not cause the intentional and practiced racism that resulted in B&H having to settle two lawsuits in ten years for many millions of dollars.

I'm a fool? Yeah, okay.

Yup, I believe the top tier of B&H management intentionally segregated bathrooms in the warehouse, didn't provide health insurance based on national origin, intentionally showed preference for white employees when promoting, and paid minority workers less than white workers. Do you believe this was done by some low level employee and management didn't have a clue?

I never said B&H did all this because it made them less money. However, you said B&H did all this because of free shipping, not collecting sales taxes from most buyers, low prices, etc. You implied in your OP that they did all this because they don't make enough money to provide equal facilities, provide insurance to workers because of their national origin, etc. Yet you act as though you didn't say it. You did.

Nope. It isn't the consumer's fault that B&H did any of this. The blame lies squarely on B&H's shoulders. What they did is against the law and they've had to settle two cases in ten years for millions of dollars.

I never said you condoned it. I said you are wrong. I never called you any names, though I did say you are blind. Yup.

What part of "there were separate restrooms for white warehouse workers vs minority warehouse workers" do you not understand?

You:"Not condoning anything that smacks of bad, unsafe, or discriminatory practices, just pointing out it is the customers demands for price and speed and service that puts pressure on retailers to do this kind of thing." Yup. That caused the racism.

Your Air Force analogy? Yup. Stuff happens from the top down. Whether the stuff is right or wrong is a separate issue. B&H does some things right. B&H does some things very wrong in my opinion.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 23, 2017)

CanonFanBoy said:


> B&H does some things right. B&H does some things very wrong in my opinion.



Did I ever say anything different?

From my first post _"Not condoning anything that smacks of bad, unsafe, or discriminatory practices,"_ I just added that I think we, the consumer, have to bear some of the responsibility for it. If you choose to abdicate your portion of responsibility fine, have at it, but that outlook doesn't make the world a safer place for warehouse workers who are abused pretty much across the board by most big companies.


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