# Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 12, 2016)

```
<p>We’ve been told a couple of times that the EOS 5DS and EOS 5DS R would be updated quicker than other recent Canon full frame DSLRs, which have seen product cycles of 4 years or more. According to an internal Canon product roadmap, there’s a possibility of an EOS 5DS/R/ Mark II coming before the close of 2017 and that there will only be one body to replaces both the 5DS and 5DS R.</p>
<p>According to the viewed roadmap slide, the EOS 5DS/R/ replacement will get a new sensor, though resolution wasn’t mentioned. We can also assume it will have nearly the same ergonomics and features as the EOS 5D Mark IV.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Updates to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Canon's roadmap sounds a lot like Nikon D800/800E -> D810.

But it makes sense that the sensor improvements in recent released would be incorporated into the high resolution FF camera.


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## LordofTackle (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Updates to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

*Very* interesting! This might make a very good combo together with the 1DXII.

I wonder if they will even more increase the MP count? (with the rumored A9 having rumored 70 MP)
And also if it will be released with or w/o the low-pass filter. My guess would be w/o (my personal impression from following the threads on CR is that more people opted for the 5DS R).


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## rrcphoto (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

120MP here we come.


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## Maximilian (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Updates to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



neuroanatomist said:


> ... makes sense that the sensor improvements in recent released would be incorporated...


+1

Will be interesting to see the final spec, esp. in comparison to the 5D4. 

I'd expect a single camera without AA filter and minor to no increase in MP but the improvements in Sensor tech.


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## KT (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I was thinking 2017 would only bring us the 6D and 7D mark II replacements and maybe the usual Rebel toys, but I guess concern over the Sony A9 / Nikon D810 replacements was paramount in Canon's boardroom. Probably same AF from 5D Mark IV minus the dual pixel stuff plus low-light sensor improvement


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## Mancubus (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

One more good reason for me to wait and not buy a 5d4 now. I absolutely hate the AA filter and would be very nice to have a 5dsr2 with touch screen and a decent DR and shadow recovery.


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## j-nord (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



KT said:


> I was thinking 2017 would only bring us the 6D and 7D mark II replacements...


i don't think there has been any indication of a 7DII in 2017


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## j-nord (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

The speedy 5DSR update is good to see! However, if they do put out 100-120mpix, this will truly be a specialty camera. I also suspect this will be the "4D" series since we heard about a new number series in the FF line up a while back.


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## Alex_M (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I am excited about this news. Definitive entry to my Christmas 2017 shopping list if true. 

Canon will likely keep the camera AA free as 5dsr outsell 5ds by large amount. 
I expect the resolution to be potentially increased to 2x that of 5D mark IV. To about 60Mp or 2.56x that of 80D.
I Woud also expect low ISO (base ISO) peformance of the camera to be similar to 80D low ISO performance due to similar pixel density and readout noise levels of their sensors. Same probably true for the hight ISO performance. 
I would personally be happy with 50mp sensor but improved high ISO performance instead.


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## unfocused (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I would expect: 
New sensor improvements reflecting the latest generation;
Some increase (70-80 mp);
No anti-aliasing filter;
DPAF;
Possibly, but not definitely, 4K;
Touchscreen;
WiFi-GPS-NFC;
5 fps.

This does make me wonder what Canon has planned for the out years. 

If they follow the pattern of using essentially the same sensor in the 5Ds and the 7D, a 72 mp 5Ds would mean a 28 mp 7DIII, which seems reasonable. A 5Ds at the end of 2017, could be followed by a 7DIII in the first quarter of 2018, but then what? 

I suppose we could see a 90D and an SL2 in there somewhere, but then it could be a long, dry spell for Canon Rumors before a major new model.


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## Jopa (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

If they allowed pre-orders now, I would do it in the blink of an eye. The original 5dsr is such a great camera, and the improvements I see in the 1dx2 would make it even better, closer to perfection.


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## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

This rumor would imply that Canon would leave it's super-planned-out refresh cycle in favor of accelerating the 5DS line.

Why this wouldn't make sense: 


Canon is a notorious creature of habit. This would be out of character for them (but I suppose it's possible.)
Canon would not squeeze the most profit out of the original 5DS rigs -- they typically sell the better rigs for 4-5 years.
They _still_ -- some 13 months after release -- are leading the FF market in resolution, and they do not appear to be pressured to increase it further from the competition

Why it might make sense:


It would bring the 5DS line in close timing to the 5D4 line, so that future refreshes of each line would happen fairly closely in time to each other. This would be a wise move to eliminate 'feature set envy' between the 5D and 5DS camps: both camps would get the same tech/features around the same time.
Given their close timing of future releases, they could more likely share some 5D/5DS accessories -- grips, batteries, focusing screens [cough], etc.

So the question is: are the upsides of a one-time acceleration of the 5DS line to 'catch up' to the 5D line worth the pain of not maximizing profits on this first version of the 5DS rigs that are out today?

- A


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## arthurbikemad (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Updates to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



LordofTackle said:


> *Very* interesting! This might make a very good combo together with the 1DXII.



Agree, I have been holding off 5D4 to upgrade my 5D3 that sits along side my 1DX2, this could be me, I keep tossing up 5DSr or 5D4, but a new 5DSr, thats me I think!


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## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> So the question is: are the upsides of a one-time acceleration of the 5DS line to 'catch up' to the 5D line worth the pain of not maximizing profits on this first version of the 5DS rigs that are out today?
> 
> - A



As a PS to my last post: my pros/cons above would not apply if the 5DS was not 'like branded' with 5D in the name. By calling it a 5DS at launch, Canon has given a similar 'level of esteem' to the 5DS as the 5D brand, which fuels a fair amount of feature envy between those lines. When one gets an update, the other gets miffed that it doesn't get access to that hot new feature.

But if they had called the 5DS line something altogether different (4D, something new, something else, etc.) it would have established the 5DS as something 'different' than the 5D line and I think the two brand lines could then co-exist on completely different refresh schedules.

- A


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## jebrady03 (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Alex_M said:


> I would personally be happy with 50mp sensor but improved high ISO performance instead.



Why? Are you printing individual pixels from a photograph?


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## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

So many questions on what a 5DS2 (or whatever it might be called) might offer:


Will it get 4K?
Will it get a higher fps burst rate?
Will it get the 1DX2/5D4 AF setup?
Will the DP RAW feature be offered? (Those files would be hilariously big)

I am curious to see what makes it into this new rig besides the 'obvious' stuff we expect it to get that the 5D4 just got (DPAF, touchscreen, -3 EV AF through the viewfinder, etc.)

- A


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## mmeerdam (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Canon is very smart. very very smart.
I've been contemplating going nikon after the 5d4 release but i will probably not.
Because in 1 year i will want canon everything. why?
My predictions are:

end 2016: sony releases an a9: 42-60 mp, maybe possibly 70
feb 2017: nikon announces a d820/d850/d900: 42 -60mp, it will have flip screen but will it have serious live view af?
Canon can now determine final specs of their upcoming releases for marketing purposes. Most development is already done or in it's final phase.
aug 2017: Canon announces a 5dsr mark II: 5div specced with around 60mp sensor new adc style, deaf. (No serious video stuff here)
sept 2017: canon announces m6: m5 like 30mp full frame mirrorless. 5d4 sensor with (dual) digic 7(+) for focus speed. And extended 4k compression options.

there's you flip screen ;-)

yeah they will trail sony sensors in DR by a half stop to a stop but it facilitates the dual pixel af capability and therefore will all be sensors developed for mirrorless camera's as wel as dslr's.

Canon will have a whole system lined up capable of using EF and EF-m lenses, it is a huge huge advantage over other systems.
I can have a 5d4 and m5/m6 for travel and backup and use all my lenses.
Or a 5dsrii and 5d4 for low light and m5 for casual use and bakcup and use all my lenses.

My girlfriend can use all my lenses on her vlog cam: 80d / m5

This total system social is a godsend for media pro's. The whole team will be able to use the same lenses 
from vlog cam to pro stills cam to pro video cam. And all will be wifi and gps enabled to posting will be seamless.

The current 5d4 is just a bridge release in a real full system wide attack on both sony and Nikon.
I'm getting excited as hell to be honest.


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## LordofTackle (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Updates to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



arthurbikemad said:


> LordofTackle said:
> 
> 
> > *Very* interesting! This might make a very good combo together with the 1DXII.
> ...



Me too! 
When the 5D4 was announced, I was kind of disappointed. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great camera, but as a second body to my 1DXII the 5DS R still makes more sense to me (for my purposes). Therefore a soon refresh of the 5DS line would be highly welcome.


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## retroreflection (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Why so soon?
They might want a single 5D chassis for manufacturing efficiency.

If so, tilty screen would be less likely. CF may remain, ...

Would that mean a minimal effort (or cost) upgrade, or would the 50 MP sensor be retired with minimal payback on its development cost? Seems hard to justify a big boost in specs. Might be a loss leading resolution king, though.


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## Random Orbits (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> As a PS to my last post: my pros/cons above would not apply if the 5DS was not 'like branded' with 5D in the name. By calling it a 5DS at launch, Canon has given a similar 'level of esteem' to the 5DS as the 5D brand, which fuels a fair amount of feature envy between those lines. When one gets an update, the other gets miffed that it doesn't get access to that hot new feature.
> 
> But if they had called the 5DS line something altogether different (4D, something new, something else, etc.) it would have established the 5DS as something 'different' than the 5D line and I think the two brand lines could then co-exist on completely different refresh schedules.
> 
> - A



Luckily they didn't call it the 5DIIIS. The 5DS lines felt like Canon releasing a product that would help staunch the flow of defections to other brands. Yes, other brands with Sony sensors had better DR, more MP, etc., but by the time the 5DS came out, Canon was probably close to designing/productionizing the technologies to close most of the DR gap. It also had better color/noise characteristics than the 5DIII. The 80D and 1DXII and now 5DIV now compete much better with Sony sensors. I'd suspect that Canon would want their MP flagship to stand above the 5DIV in all aspects of IQ if possible as soon as possible. Future cycles would then return to the typical long Canon cycles.


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## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Random Orbits said:


> Luckily they didn't call it the 5DIIIS. The 5DS lines felt like Canon releasing a product that would help staunch the flow of defections to other brands. Yes, other brands with Sony sensors had better DR, more MP, etc., but by the time the 5DS came out, Canon was probably close to designing/productionizing the technologies to close most of the DR gap. It also had better color/noise characteristics than the 5DIII. The 80D and 1DXII and now 5DIV now compete much better with Sony sensors.  I'd suspect that Canon would want their MP flagship to stand above the 5DIV in all aspects of IQ if possible as soon as possible. Future cycles would then return to the typical long Canon cycles.



That bit above a whale of an assertion. Do you really see the 5DS2 being the end-all / be-all best IQ for Canon like how the D810 and A7R II are positioned? A jillion wedding photographers (presumably) using the 5D4 might beg to differ. Pixels aren't everything! 

- A


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## Crosswind (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



mmeerdam said:


> feb 2017: nikon announces a d820/d850/d900: 42 -60mp, it will have flip screen but will it have serious live view af?
> Canon can now determine final specs of their upcoming releases for marketing purposes. Most development is already done or in it's final phase.



This. *Canon still hasn't released a single FF body with a tilting screen*. It is about time! I wouldn't buy a 2-3k $ camera without a flippy screen - a feature that can be so important for creative photography... I just.... d-o-n-t get it.

Well I guess for some it's not meant to be "professional" : rrrright? 
Or for some it might be a no-go, because it could break sooner than later (if that's the argument, then I want to see how they are working as a photographer *head shaking*)

Can somebody tell me what's wrong with tilting screens on high-end bodies? I'm really curious.


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## Etienne (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Moire and aliasing is worse than a loss of resolution. If they've completely eliminated those issues then there's no need for the AA filter, otherwise I hope they keep it.


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## kaihp (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



mmeerdam said:


> My predictions are:
> 
> end 2016: sony releases an a9: 42-60 mp, maybe possibly 70
> feb 2017: nikon announces a d820/d850/d900: 42 -60mp, it will have flip screen but will it have serious live view af?
> ...



I seriously doubt that Canon can wait so late as 6 months before launch to finalize the specifications. Minor things down in the corner of the software (number of translations perhaps), but not major features. Definitely not things like Mpixel counts or fps, as there are just too many integrations and manufacturing setup issues to close it in 6 months and have a small inventory ready.

From my career in product development, I'd say that final specs are closed at least 12 months ahead of launch.


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## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Crosswind said:


> mmeerdam said:
> 
> 
> > feb 2017: nikon announces a d820/d850/d900: 42 -60mp, it will have flip screen but will it have serious live view af?
> ...



There would appear to be a hammerlock certainty that the 6D2 will get a tilty-flippy when it arrives next year. I see that feature climbing up from the bottom of the FF pecking order and slowly climbing it's way up. The 5D and 5DS lines will eventually get one. 

But you don't see many sideline sports photogs or absurd -50F polar wildlife guys with tilty-flippy screens. Don't expect a tilty-flippy on a 1DX3 (or 1DX4 or 1DX5...). Those rigs need to be bomb/dunk/drop/sand-proof, and I don't think we'll ever see that line get one.

- A


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## Random Orbits (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> Random Orbits said:
> 
> 
> > Luckily they didn't call it the 5DIIIS. The 5DS lines felt like Canon releasing a product that would help staunch the flow of defections to other brands. Yes, other brands with Sony sensors had better DR, more MP, etc., but by the time the 5DS came out, Canon was probably close to designing/productionizing the technologies to close most of the DR gap. It also had better color/noise characteristics than the 5DIII. The 80D and 1DXII and now 5DIV now compete much better with Sony sensors.  I'd suspect that Canon would want their MP flagship to stand above the 5DIV in all aspects of IQ if possible as soon as possible. Future cycles would then return to the typical long Canon cycles.
> ...



LOL, I kind of do. Slower frame rate and comparable to or slightly nerfed video features. I would expect a higher price to go with it sitting more evenly between the 1DXII and 5DIV. The 5DIV is targeted toward the wedding segment with good AF, good video (worst negatives are size and crop factor for 4K). With the initial list price of the 1DXII being lower than the original 1DX, I was hoping that the 5DIV would have followed the same pattern, but it came out at the initial 5DIII price of 3500 USD. The 5DS was pitched more as a studio/landscape rig than the general use 5DIII; I would expect the 5DSII to as well relative to the 5DIV.


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## Maiaibing (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I don't believe this rumour has any merit at all.

If true, Canon can hardly just change the 5DS/R into a 5DIV - 5DS/R already has most of the key 5DIV improvements. Who would buy a 5DIV if the 5DS/R bosted even more improvements that bought it even closer to the 5DIV?

That leaves Canon with the option to bring on even more pixels. Now I need and crave pixels - so this is my market space. I'd be very happy to see a 5DSRII but it would have to boost a healthy increase in MPIX to make sense as an upgrade. Id probably not buy anything to replace my current 5DS/R @ less than 80 MPIX. Of course, I'd preorder 120 MPIX any day. 

To those pointing to the Nikon 800 to 810 release. I think the 5DS/R has proven itself to be a very solid offering without the drawbacks of the original D800 which forced Nikon to issue a fast track upgrade for this model.

Now if Canon puts a 120 MPIX 5DSRII on the X-mas selves together with a "special" 300mm f/2.8 IS L III made for 120 MPIX shooting 2017 may prove to be a very expensive year for my photography...!!!


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## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Maiaibing said:


> I don't believe this rumour has any merit at all.
> 
> If true, Canon can hardly just change the 5DS/R into a 5DIV - 5DS/R already has most of the key 5DIV improvements. Who would buy a 5DIV if the 5DS/R bosted even more improvements that bought it even closer to the 5DIV?



People would buy the 5D4 over the 5DS/5DS2 _*if opting for less pixels rewarded the performance elsewhere somehow*_: like if the 5D4 cleaned the 5DS's clock at high ISO noise or had a considerably higher burst rate. 

But from what little I've seen on the 5D4 so far: 


It's better than the 5DS in low light, but when you downsample the 5DS to 30 MP, it's not a dramatic difference, perhaps on the order of one stop.


It has a faster burst rate, but since Canon continues to nerf the 5D# line's processing power, it only has +2 fps over the 5DS. That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the 5D4. 9 fps for the 5D4 would have sat far more usefully between the 5 fps of the 5DS and the 14 fps of the 1DX2. 7 fps for the 5D4 muddies things a bit as far as differentiation goes, IMHO.

As a result, what was intended to be a market split of '5D4 is for the field, 5DS is for the studio or tripod' isn't shaping up that way. If you are a stills only shooter, I'm hard-pressed why you'd choose a 5D4 over a 5DS rig for anything other than the little things that the 5D4 is getting simply by being the newest kid on the block (more F/8 points, 1DX2 AF, -3 EV AF center point through the VF, AF selector knob, touchscreen, etc.)... _which we presume the 5DS2 will get when it gets refreshed._

- A


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## mmeerdam (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



kaihp said:


> I seriously doubt that Canon can wait so late as 6 months before launch to finalize the specifications. Minor things down in the corner of the software (number of translations perhaps), but not major features. Definitely not things like Mpixel counts or fps, as there are just too many integrations and manufacturing setup issues to close it in 6 months and have a small inventory ready.
> 
> From my career in product development, I'd say that final specs are closed at least 12 months ahead of launch.



i agree completely. glad someone with experience chimes in! I was talking about firmware stuff, i do believe there is some headroom in processing power and hardware capabilities in every eos camera. These things are computers after all. 5d3 could record raw video if they wanted to.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



j-nord said:


> The speedy 5DSR update is good to see! However, if they do put out 100-120mpix, this will truly be a specialty camera



the 5Ds is already a specialty camera - the 5D Mark III/IV is and was the normal variety.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> So many questions on what a 5DS2 (or whatever it might be called) might offer:
> 
> 
> Will it get 4K?
> ...



4K probably the same as the 5DIV.
higher burst rate.. probably be lucky to hit 4fps.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Crosswind said:


> mmeerdam said:
> 
> 
> > feb 2017: nikon announces a d820/d850/d900: 42 -60mp, it will have flip screen but will it have serious live view af?
> ...



always kind of curious on why some bemoan a tilt screen on an OVF based camera.

while handy to look at the back LCD .. most still use something called a viewfinder.

tilt screen though may happen on the 5D series.. but a full articulating screen will never happen (IMO of course).


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## rrcphoto (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> [qIt has a faster burst rate, but since Canon continues to nerf the 5D# line's processing power, it only has +2 fps over the 5DS.



I'd love to see the technically analysis of fitting three DiGiC's in a 5D frame, versus the two that are now in there for the 5D Mark IV.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> It's better than the 5DS in low light, but when you downsample the 5DS to 30 MP, it's not a dramatic difference, perhaps on the order of one stop.



When did one stop become 'not a dramatic difference'? The light gathering area-based difference in image noise between APS-C and FF is 1.3 stops. Are you saying that there is 'not a dramatic difference' between APS-C and full frame? Or that the threshold for a dramatic difference falls somewhere between 1 and 1.3 stops?

One stop of lens aperture is certainly a dramatic difference, at least in terms of cost for some lenses...


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## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



neuroanatomist said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > It's better than the 5DS in low light, but when you downsample the 5DS to 30 MP, it's not a dramatic difference, perhaps on the order of one stop.
> ...



I was being kind to the 5D4. Once you downsample to like resolution, I actually think it's less than a stop. But you make a fair point: one stop improvement is actually a technical coup.

I just see the downsides of a 5DS are not that terrible. I would have thought that going after 50 MP would scorch the performance in another metric. Or, put another way, I expected a little more out of the 5D4 to justify what _not_ going after 50 MP can do for you.

I'm a very happy 5D3 owner, as you know, but as a stills-only shooter, I get more excited about +20 MP if it only costs me one stop of high ISO and 2 fps. If this trend continues, I could see all stills-only shooters that don't need high FPS / large buffers going after the 5DS, 5DS2, etc. rather than the 5D4, 5D5, etc.

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> If this trend continues, I could see all stills-only shooters that don't need high FPS / large buffers going after the 5DS, 5DS2, etc. rather than the 5D4, 5D5, etc.



As a 1D X owner, the 5DIV is not really appealing. But I could see adding a 5DsR II to my kit at some point.


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## LordofTackle (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Maiaibing said:


> I don't believe this rumour has any merit at all.
> 
> If true, Canon can hardly just change the 5DS/R into a 5DIV - 5DS/R already has most of the key 5DIV improvements. Who would buy a 5DIV if the 5DS/R bosted even more improvements that bought it even closer to the 5DIV?



Maybe if they focus solely on stills features? Leaving out all the video stuff? That would leave the 5DIV or the 1DXII for the video crowd and establish the 5DS(R) II as a prime stills tool, especially for studio photographers? 
IMHO, that would be an interesting product differentiation.


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## SirSam (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I don't understand why one should want a FF camera with more that 40-50 mp. I don't think it's a smart move of canon and Sony to develop such high mega pixel FF cameras, because first of all there are no lenses with the respective resolving power and secondly who should want a camera with such a small sensor and the consequently high pixel pitch. Even the 5dsr has a diffraction limited aperture of f/6.7, so a 70mp FF camera would have something like f/4, which means that beyond this aperture value the image will become softer due to diffraction (think about landscape photographers for whom the high mega pixels are appealing in general but they can't us high aperture values which they usually want to do). I think Canon should better think about the development of a bigger sensor instead...


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## mmeerdam (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Just some other thoughts:
5d line-up and price.
They priced the 5d4 high (mostly in europe) so they can price the same camera with a 60mp (maybe higher? ) sensor a little to a substantial bit higher and drop the 5d4 price to make it look a great deal. All without having to offer any extra features in the new camera. This means they can re-use the 5d4 body without having to worry about video and fps. Both are probably the main hurdles in throughput and heat development. To develop a camera that does all as well as canon demands is too big a risk. they are in pole position allready. 
Welcome side effect: a lot of pro's will need bodies for high mp work and low light from time to time which means they sell 2 new bodies per 4/5 years instead of 1 while the buyer keeps their old one around.

Why a 5ds2 is probably coming in 2017
It won't make any sense for canon to keep the already developed 5ds2 body (5d4 framework) on the shelf for a year or more after rival nikon and sony have released their updated high megapixel products. a year won't bring enough sensor advancements to put out a much more compelling product.

mp count
i'm a idiot at math so someone else should probably chime in here:

We could calculate a theoretical maximum mp count based on throughput.
5d4 does 30mp = ca 40MB @ 7fps = around 280 to 300 MB/s?
double digic 6+ can proces 1.5x that sort of? = 450MB/s?
70mp = 85MB @ 5fps should be possible? 

edit: 5d4 already has double digic? maybe double digic 7 for a boost
otherwise maybe the architecture is already capable of 60-70 mp.
would be logical they already built it for more throughput.


----------



## Crosswind (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



rrcphoto said:


> while handy to look at the back LCD .. most still use something called a viewfinder.
> 
> tilt screen though may happen on the 5D series.. but a full articulating screen will never happen (IMO of course).



Hey there. I'm using the OVF a lot more than the LiveView. But when I need the flippy screen, I am happy to have it onboard because it can expand the creative horizon a lot and it is a joy to use. 

Sure, some might argue you could also buy an external HDMI display: but it adds bulk, weight and is expensive. You have to think twice about that.

Then what about WiFi connect. to the smartphone? That's another way to kind of have an articulating screen. But it is inconvenient to use, takes time to set up and generally slow in operation when compared.

None of these things does replace an integrated flippy screen. 

@ahsanford: yes I agree with you. The 1DX series are a different kind of thing. But every other camera should have it.

So for me, the nr.1 feature on Canons next 5DS would be that little flippy screen, even if I'd only use it for about 10% of my shots.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



SirSam said:


> ...first of all there are no lenses with the respective resolving power and secondly who should want a camera with such a small sensor and the consequently high pixel pitch.



Lens resolving power is not going to be truly limiting for quite some time – a 70 MP FF sensor will resolve more detail than a 50 MP FF sensor, even with low end lenses.




SirSam said:


> Even the 5dsr has a diffraction limited aperture of f/6.7, so a 70mp FF camera would have something like f/4, which means that beyond this aperture value the image will become softer due to diffraction (think about landscape photographers for whom the high mega pixels are appealing in general but they can't us high aperture values which they usually want to do).



By orienting the DoF to the subject with a tilt/shift lens, I can focus from foreground flowers to background mountains at f/4.




SirSam said:


> I think Canon should better think about the development of a bigger sensor instead...



Such as the 205x202mm CMOS sensor they prototyped? Gonna need some big lenses for that 288mm image circle, 6.7x the size of the EF image circle...


----------



## rrcphoto (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Crosswind said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > while handy to look at the back LCD .. most still use something called a viewfinder.
> ...



so why wouldn't you use a right angle viewfinder?

especially if you use the OVF far more than liveview.


----------



## SirSam (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



neuroanatomist said:


> SirSam said:
> 
> 
> > ...first of all there are no lenses with the respective resolving power and secondly who should want a camera with such a small sensor and the consequently high pixel pitch.
> ...



No, I was more thinking of a 44x33 or 53x40...


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



mmeerdam said:


> Why a 5ds2 is probably coming in 2017
> It won't make any sense for canon to keep the already developed 5ds2 body (5d4 framework) on the shelf for a year or more after rival nikon and sony have released their updated high megapixel products.



You presume a 5DS2 has already been designed, spun up in production and is ready to go. I'm not so sure. Just because it will likely share so much with the 5D4 doesn't mean you just swap a few subcomponents on the bill of materials and you're good to go.

And can someone provide me with the last time Canon rushed a DSLR to market to respond to competitive pressure? It's just not their style. 

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



neuroanatomist said:


> SirSam said:
> 
> 
> > ...first of all there are no lenses with the respective resolving power and secondly who should want a camera with such a small sensor and the consequently high pixel pitch.
> ...



+1

For reference:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/06/canon-5ds-and-5ds-r-initial-resolution-tests/

Even a well used 50 prime from a 20 year old design improved on the 5DS sensor over the 5D3 sensor.

- A


----------



## rrcphoto (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Canon Rumors said:


> We’ve been told a couple of times that the EOS 5DS and EOS 5DS R would be updated quicker than other recent Canon full frame DSLRs, which have seen product cycles of 4 years or more. According to an internal Canon product roadmap, there’s a possibility of an EOS 5DS/R/ Mark II coming before the close of 2017 and that there will only be one body to replaces both the 5DS and 5DS R.</p>
> <p>According to the viewed roadmap slide, the EOS 5DS/R/ replacement will get a new sensor, though resolution wasn’t mentioned. We can also assume it will have nearly the same ergonomics and features as the EOS 5D Mark IV.</p>
> <p><em>More to come…</em></p>
> <span id="pty_trigger"></span>



Some tidbits..
1. Canon stated a 120MP DSLR was in development Sept 2015. It's been "working prototytpe" demo'ed in a 5D sized camera body.
2. Canon has stated in the past that it takes 3 years of R&D for a 1 series camera. we can assume 3 years or less for a 5 series.

So we know that a 120MP camera should be out before Sept 2018. having said camera out 2-3 years from Sept 2015 seems reasonable to me, which would make that somewhere in between Sept 2017 and 2018.

Seems to fit for me.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> mmeerdam said:
> 
> 
> > Why a 5ds2 is probably coming in 2017
> ...



probably more than that.. consider if they just shove a 120Mp sensor in there, the camera would get less than 2 fps.

they'd have to go up to dual digics 6+ and keep the older 1DX AF to even get close to 4-5 fps.

or put in digic 7 which should be available for DSLR's next year.


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## Mr Majestyk (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe this rumour has any merit at all.
> ...



If we assume 5DsII gets digic 7 or even sticks with digic 6+, then even at 60MP the camera could do 7fps, and with digic 7, 8-9fps. But Canon did something stupid with 5D4 and gave it too slow frame rate. This means they will probably deliberately cripple the 5DsII frame rate at no more than 6fps. The one thing that may help is the Sony A7 updates and A9. Sony's new Bionz engine can deliver 12fps at 42MP, making the 5D4 look quite pathetic. Expect this in one of the A7's or A9. That may force Canon's hand to deliver decent fps to 5DsII. I wonder if they could do a fw update and push 5D4 to 8fps, which a single digic 6+ can deliver.


----------



## 9VIII (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



rrcphoto said:


> Crosswind said:
> 
> 
> > mmeerdam said:
> ...



When I'm shooting Macro a lot of the time I find myself with the camera high in the air facing straight down. Even if I can see the rear screen, accessing the controls is still cumbersome. Sometimes I need to keep the camera in a certain orientation and I can't physically get to the back of the camera.
Something as common as shooting flowers in a field is much easier with an articulating screen, otherwise you have to lie down. Maybe your subject is on the side of a creek?
In that particular circumstance wi-fi isn't good enough either unless you have a two man team (it's times like these that I really wish Google Glass had been successful).


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## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



rrcphoto said:


> Some tidbits..
> 1. Canon stated a 120MP DSLR was in development Sept 2015. It's been "working prototytpe" demo'ed in a 5D sized camera body.
> 2. Canon has stated in the past that it takes 3 years of R&D for a 1 series camera. we can assume 3 years or less for a 5 series.
> 
> ...



_Can_ they do it in 2017? Absolutely. That's not the question. _Will they_ undermine their total (original) 5DS/5DS R profits by effectively obsoleting that line before it's time? See my pros/cons on this on the first page of the thread. 

There's a lovely upside to having Canon's prior FF 'staged waterfall' of releases go from...

1DX2 --> 5D4 --> 6D2 
plus a (relatively) fast follow-up of a 5DS2 in 2017

To this new cadence 4-ish-or-so years from now:

1DX3 --> 5D5 & 5DS3 (in some close proximity) --> 6D3

Which would be attractive. Canon would maximize it's 5D brand efficiencies and shared components, 5D level consumers would not be stuck between choosing a new 5D feature over the most 5DS resolution, etc.

But this pretty announcement/rollout picture only happens if:


Canon abandons it's habits regarding the length of FF camera life-cycles
Canon deliberately undercuts (original) 5DS / 5DS R profits by replacing the product sooner than they usually do
Canon interrupts whatever else its finite product development bandwidth was working on to accelerate the 5DS line -- perhaps this will slow down FF mirrorless, an SL1 follow up, an EF interchangeable lens 4k camcorder, etc.

That's a tall list of things Canon needs to concede to make this happen, so I am not sold on this rumor yet. But they _could_ do it.

- A


----------



## Crosswind (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



rrcphoto said:


> So why wouldn't you use a right angle viewfinder?
> 
> especially if you use the OVF far more than liveview.



Flippy screen is more flexible. And again, right angle vf would add weight, bulk and cost, same as external HDMI display. And the canon app takes too much time to set up. So I really value an articulating screen for those situations where I quickly need it. There is no other tool that can completely "replace" its qualities (if that's the correct term). 

The only advantages I see is that an external HDMI screen mounted on top of the camera can give you a more detailed and bigger view of the elements in your frame, which can make composition easier and more precise. 

And the right angle VF has the (dis-)advantages of the OVF and doesn't draw any power from the battery. 

But both are "extensions" of the camera and take up space and so they are not really convenient for traveling or long walks, exploring the landscape. My gear is generally light-weight, but I don't want more of it... 

So I demand a built-in flippy screen, and Canon is lagging behind the competition. Nikon for example did everything right with the D750. But I have faith in Canon and theres hope that one day, they will offer more FF bodies with articulating screens.


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## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Mr Majestyk said:


> But Canon did something stupid with 5D4 and gave it too slow frame rate. This means they will probably deliberately cripple the 5DsII frame rate at no more than 6fps.



Agree. Or perhaps the 5DS2 stays at 5 fps but gains a large resolution bump. Either way, I think Canon pooched the 5D4 fps decision to protect 1DX2 sales. (Don't get me wrong, they needed to protect the 1DX2, but not so aggressively on this feature -- 8-9 fps seems like it would have been a better call.) 

- A


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## lino (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

FUJI GFX 50S vs CANON 5DS MK ii


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## Crosswind (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> Mr Majestyk said:
> 
> 
> > But Canon did something stupid with 5D4 and gave it too slow frame rate. This means they will probably deliberately cripple the 5DsII frame rate at no more than 6fps.
> ...



I wouldn't have any problems with that. The 5DS series is not built for sports of course, so even if the mk2 would only shoot at 2-3 fps.... That's OK i.m.o. as long as it continues its path as high res monster. 

Special tools for special jobs or however you'd call it..


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## lino (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I think its going to be just a resolution bump to the 5d4 sensor ...


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## j-nord (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



rrcphoto said:


> Crosswind said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...


I guess you've never used a tripod or gotten creative with shooting angles or shot at night. Being able to shoot over your head or close to the ground is FAR easier with a tilt screen. Or working with a tripod for any amount of time. Or any of the previously mentioned where you want/need an exposure preview. It clearly makes shooting so much easier for so many different scenarios... you must be trolling.


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## 9VIII (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



retroreflection said:


> Why so soon?
> They might want a single 5D chassis for manufacturing efficiency.
> 
> If so, tilty screen would be less likely. CF may remain, ...
> ...



I have to expect that development costs are shared across all of the "5D" body shells, and the release of the 5D4 might be as much reason to upgrade the 5Ds as a new sensor.

If Canon gets extra value by releasing a body in multiple products then maybe they would rather see all 5D products adopt the same body sooner rather than later.
If the 5D3 is "discontinued" but the 5Ds is still in production then that's probably holding up a few lines in the factory, moving the 5Ds over to the 5D4 body style would unify production.

Canon constantly shows off ridiculous sensor concepts, I think it's safe to say that the design of sensors in consumer products is strictly a matter of practical application and not a matter of development per-product. Development is ongoing, they can probably produce a sensor to any given spec at any moment just as easily as any other.
They did note that the DPAF sensors are a higher level of difficulty in manufacturing (it sounds like they needed to use smaller lithography to make it work), but that's still a matter of manufacturing cost and not development cost.


----------



## Crosswind (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



j-nord said:


> Being able to shoot over your head or close to the ground is FAR easier with a tilt screen. Or working with a tripod for any amount of time. Or any of the previously mentioned where you want/need an exposure preview. It clearly makes shooting so much easier for so many different scenarios



+1
Exactly what I mean. Especially a studio and landscape camera like the 5DS ought to have it. Why not?


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## rrcphoto (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Some tidbits..
> ...



why would it obsolete the line. 

we have no idea how long it takes to amortize out the R&D really.

for all we know, the R&D is already paid for so why not?


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## rrcphoto (Oct 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



j-nord said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Crosswind said:
> ...



i have this little thing called a right angle finder .. did you see the point about an .. "OVF" .. please re-read.


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## takesome1 (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I keep seeing 120 mp mentioned.

We should take in to account all of the negative posts about the 5Ds that say the additional mp introduce more camera shake, worse noise and it can only be used on well let days with only the best glass made.

At 120mp the new body would only be able to take pictures on a very rigid tripod and only if it is taking a shots of a solar eclipse.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



takesome1 said:


> I keep seeing 120 mp mentioned.
> 
> We should take in to account all of the negative posts about the 5Ds that say the additional mp introduce more camera shake, worse noise and it can only be used on well let days with only the best glass made.
> 
> At 120mp the new body would only be able to take pictures on a very rigid tripod and only if it is taking a shots of a solar eclipse.



hyperbole much?

it would be around 1EV different from the 50MP DSLR, or you use it with oversampling in mind. at the same print sizes, the 120Mp sensor will certainly look better than 50mp and have the same influence of camera shake.

not to mention that most full frame shooters apparently don't have the discipline for APS-C cropped sensors that are a higher pixel density because they are losing their minds at 50mp. 

A cropped 24mp APS-C camera is the full frame equivalent for shake and blurr at the same actual focal as a 60MP full frame sensor.

somehow it's ONLY an issue with full frame cameras :

Then lenses. at the same print / view size the 120mp sensor will make any lens look better than the 50MP at the same dimensions, unless the lens is from Sony.


----------



## Sator (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



SirSam said:


> Even the 5dsr has a diffraction limited aperture of f/6.7, so a 70mp FF camera would have something like f/4, which means that beyond this aperture value the image will become softer due to diffraction (think about landscape photographers for whom the high mega pixels are appealing in general but they can't us high aperture values which they usually want to do).



Can you please show us your calculations and how you derive these figures?

It is an often repeated mantra that as you increase resolution within a given format this increases diffraction. However, this is how you get diffraction of light as it passes through a slit (diagram from Canon Japan website):





The only variable that can increase or decrease the amount of diffraction is the width of the slit. If you placed a sensor on the other side of the slit (or hole), it matters little whether the pixels on it are large or small, it cannot change the amount of diffraction. 

I use f/8-16 on my 5DsR all the time, and have not noticed any more reduction in sharpness over a 6D using the same lens. So when I see these repeated claims that Canon's engineers don't even know what diffraction is, and that increasing resolution to 120-250MP in a 35mm format sensor will cause devastating degradation with diffraction ruining images at apertures as wide as f/2.8-4, I am left curious how these people derive such calculations (these are never shown when such categorical statements are made). It seems a fundamental assumption is that diffraction increases as pixel size decreases...which is nonsense. I would love to see the maths, so we can all check them over. Until then, I am calling BS on this one, although in lieu of showing us the calculations I am sure people will continue to repeat the myth over and over again until it becomes The Truth. 

This is not to say that diffraction limited optics is not a hard limit. Diffraction occurs with all lenses, at all f stops, irrespective of what the pixel size of your sensor is. The amount of diffraction for any given f stop is the same whether you have a 3MP sensor or a 300MP sensor. Increasing resolution merely makes the diffraction that was always there more divisible, just it makes minute handshake more visible. 

A couple of useful articles debunking the "diffraction myth":

https://jonrista.com/2013/03/24/the-diffraction-myth/

http://community.the-digital-picture.com/showthread.php?t=809


----------



## Crosswind (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



takesome1 said:


> At 120mp the new body would only be able to take pictures on a very rigid tripod and only if it is taking a shots of a solar eclipse.



Oh c'mon, that's just wrong. It really depends on how large you want to print. Printing a large 90x60cm picture with a 20MP 6D will look like the same as taken with a future 120MP FF sensor and same settings with same lens. You wouldn't notice much difference. The difference would only come into play if you stand very close to the print, pixel peep at 100%, or print much larger or crop a lot (which is generally a bad idea). Keep in mind the viewing distance, as the human eye also has its limits.


----------



## Hellish (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Cant wait!

But what will the crippling factor(s) be to make it not beat the 5D Mark IV in every aspect?!?!?!

Low framerate?
Worse Video?

Or just priced much higher?

Would prefer the higher price and have a decent frame and 4k video


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## Crosswind (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



rrcphoto said:


> . at the same print sizes, the 120Mp sensor will certainly look better than 50mp and have the same influence of camera shake.



Yeah, but only if you look very close. The perceived sharpness would be the same from usual viewing distances.


----------



## 9VIII (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Hellish said:


> Cant wait!
> 
> But what will the crippling factor(s) be to make it not beat the 5D Mark IV in every aspect?!?!?!
> 
> ...



I doubt it will have 4K video.

Most cameras are passively cooled devices so they run with extremely low thermal limits, they're generally not designed to run a given component at 100% all the time.
Sony has heat issues because they just run the processor until it fails, the hardware is capable enough, but not within the thermal limits of the body design. What they need is active cooling, but that would be a huge compromise for a camera design. That would basically turn it into a big dedicated movie camera.

Until mobile processors become two or four times more powerful than they are now (able to do the same processing at half or a quarter the energy cost) the only things that will be able to do proper 4K are dedicated units with much more substantial cooling solutions.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Sator said:


> It is an often repeated mantra that as you increase resolution within a given format this increases diffraction. However, this is how you get diffraction of light as it passes through a slit (diagram from Canon Japan website):
> 
> The only variable that can increase or decrease the amount of diffraction is the width of the slit. If you placed a sensor on the other side of the slit (or hole), it matters little whether the pixels on it are large or small, it cannot change the amount of diffraction.



It's often repeated because it's true. However, many people misunderstand the specifics. Lens diffraction is certainly independent of pixel size, but pixel size determines the spatial frequency at which the light on the other side is sampled. Consider an analogy – take a picture of a wall of Lego bricks from two meters away, the 120 MP sensor will not enable you to resolve the blocks any better than a 10 MP sensor. Take a picture of sand on a beach from two meters, the 120 MP will have a significant resolution advantage. 

Fact: diffraction softens images.
Fact: narrower apertures result in more diffraction. 
Fact: smaller pixels deliver higher spatial resolution. 
Fact: higher spatial resolution allows the _effect_ of diffraction to be detected at wider apertures. 

If I compare the 100/2.8L on my 1D X at f/5.6 and f/14, the image at the narrower aperture will be _slightly_ softer, all else being equal. If I compare the 100/2.8L on a 5Ds at f/5.6 and f/14, the difference between the two will be more noticeable than on the 1D X. 

Where the myth comes in is when people start comparing across sensors. When someone suggests that the 100/2.8L at f/14 will be less sharp on the 5Ds than on the 1D X because of diffraction, that's wrong – the 50 MP sensor will outresolve the 18 MP sensor at any aperture setting, on either side of the cameras' respective diffraction-limited apertures.


----------



## Sator (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



neuroanatomist said:


> It's often repeated because it's true. However, many people misunderstand the specifics. Lens diffraction is certainly independent of pixel size, but pixel size determines the spatial frequency at which the light on the other side is sampled. Consider an analogy – take a picture of a wall of Lego bricks from two meters away, the 120 MP sensor will not enable you to resolve the blocks any better than a 10 MP sensor. Take a picture of sand on a beach from two meters, the 120 MP will have a significant resolution advantage.
> 
> Fact: diffraction softens images.
> Fact: narrower apertures result in more diffraction.
> ...



I've already said that when I added that diffraction always occurs at all apertures of any given lens, and the magnitude of diffraction is always proportional to the slit width/aperture size. Increasing resolution merely makes the diffraction potentially more visible. It is like minute handshake degrading IQ—it is already there even at lower resolutions. What I am questioning are what the magic numbers that repeatedly pop up are based on unequivocally stating that on a 50MP sensor diffraction _meaningfully and visibly_ degrades resolution past f/6.7, beyond f/4 on a 70MP sensor, and past f/2.8 on a 120MP sensor etc. 

My challenge is what the calculations are for determining where the tipping point lies at which diffraction limited optics start to _meaningfully and visibly_ limit 35mm format sensor resolutions to such an extent as to render increasing resolution further futile. Please note the emphasis on the words _meaningfully and visibly_. There are reasons for suspecting that even at 120-250MP, we may not yet have hit the wall of diffraction limited optics. I expect Canon would already have had all of this data in their lab before proceeding to develop a commercially viable 120-250MP sensor, and are not as stupid as some seem to think they are. 

This is another interesting article at least suggesting that we are currently nowhere near hitting the wall of diffraction limited optics:

https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2014/12/36-megapixels-vs-6x7-velvia/#/

Once again these articles are also of interest:

https://jonrista.com/2013/03/24/the-diffraction-myth/

http://community.the-digital-picture.com/showthread.php?t=809


----------



## j-nord (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



rrcphoto said:


> j-nord said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



Please re-read your comments, you never presented an argument about why a tilt screen is unnecessary with an "OVF based camera". Further, I know what a right angle finder is and it doesn't have anywhere near the functionality or practicality of a tilt screen (particularly a flippy tilt screen). 

How well does that right angle finder work when the camera is over your head? How well does it work when standing at an awkward off angle? How well does it work when you are trying to compose an image in the dark? Hows carrying an extra piece of equipment/adding bulk to your kit?


----------



## Jack Douglas (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



j-nord said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > j-nord said:
> ...



I bought the angle finder and am disappointed in it for similar reasons. Perhaps I need to persist more.

Jack


----------



## Etienne (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Sator said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > It's often repeated because it's true. However, many people misunderstand the specifics. Lens diffraction is certainly independent of pixel size, but pixel size determines the spatial frequency at which the light on the other side is sampled. Consider an analogy – take a picture of a wall of Lego bricks from two meters away, the 120 MP sensor will not enable you to resolve the blocks any better than a 10 MP sensor. Take a picture of sand on a beach from two meters, the 120 MP will have a significant resolution advantage.
> ...



It is theoretically possible to correct for diffraction. Bayer sensors detect red, blue, green at different spatial distances within a given full-color pixel. These different wavelengths will diffract to a different extent, resulting in a pattern on the sub-pixels which should provide quantitative information about the amount of diffraction. It might be complex to extract this information, but some amount of correction for diffraction should be possible.


----------



## ricky_005 (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*


Canon is like a snake which slithers through the grass hunting for pry, unfortunately we are their victims. 

The company trades on the NYSE and only concerned about the maximum amount of blood they can take without killing the victim.

They don't believe in being leaders in photo technology, only leaders in reliable gear?

They don't wont to compete, as that's bad for profits, so they follow behind the leaders as not to push them forward.

Decisions at what pace photo technology progress are discussed in Private Meetings. example: Canon, Nikon & Sony board members having dinner together. I guess none of the cell phone manufactures are dinning with them but SHOULD BE.


Lugging around Thousands of dollars in heavy glass and a iPhone user asking: What are you Smoking?

iPhone 7 Photo attaached Below....


----------



## Mikehit (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Sator said:


> SirSam said:
> 
> 
> > Even the 5dsr has a diffraction limited aperture of f/6.7, so a 70mp FF camera would have something like f/4, which means that beyond this aperture value the image will become softer due to diffraction (think about landscape photographers for whom the high mega pixels are appealing in general but they can't us high aperture values which they usually want to do).
> ...



The other thing people forget is that 'diffraction limiting' means 'limits possible improvements' and it does not mean 'makes the image worse'. Diffraction will limit the point at which adding MP does nothing to add more detail at any particular aperture and that is all it means. 
Sometimes I wonder where people learned to speak English.


----------



## Mikehit (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ricky_005 said:


> Canon is like a snake which slithers through the grass hunting for pry, unfortunately we are their victims.
> 
> The company trades on the NYSE and only concerned about the maximum amount of blood they can take without killing the victim.
> 
> ...



I'd like to see how well that image crops.


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## Mancubus (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Hellish said:


> Cant wait!
> 
> But what will the crippling factor(s) be to make it not beat the 5D Mark IV in every aspect?!?!?!
> 
> ...



Probably no 4k, no touch screen, 3-4fps and a price tag around 4000usd.


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## douglaurent (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I'm in if it's an 80-120MP camera, even if the rest of the specs and features are the same old lame ones.

I'm not in if it's the same old 50MP camera that just has the usual Canon-like 5 out of 50 possible improvements. 

The 1080p video on the 5DsR was so horrible that it's unlikely they squeeze brilliant 4K out of this high megapixel camera. Especially as Canon doesnt seem to hold necessary patents - or doesnt want to pay for the use, as you can see with the codec choice for 4K on the 1DC, 1DX2 and 5D4.


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## photojoern.de (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I own the 5 DSR and I am very happy with it. In all respects. What limits this camera is the photographer. It´s not the technique. It´s certainly not the Megapixel. Dynamic range and low ISO capability? Yes, more is always better. But it´s already a great camera. 

The limit of this camera is not the body, but the lens - and the subject behind the lens.

So, if you think a bout a high resolution camera: do not wait for a mark II version of the 5 DS (R). Buy one now. Get used to the high resolution in your shooting practice (you will need a higher shutter speed to get everything crisp sharp). See what it makes with your lenses: it will reveal the slightest weakness. See what it makes with your focussing technique. Again, it will reveal any minor mistake.

The current 5 DS (R) body is almost certainly not the weakest link in your chain.


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## Alex_M (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Sorry. I should have explain myself better:

If I were to chose between resolution upgrade from current 50MP to 60MP+ and high ISO performance improvement, I would chose: High ISO performance improvement over resolution increase.





jebrady03 said:


> Alex_M said:
> 
> 
> > I would personally be happy with 50mp sensor but improved high ISO performance instead.
> ...


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## douglaurent (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



mmeerdam said:


> Canon is very smart. very very smart.
> I've been contemplating going nikon after the 5d4 release but i will probably not.
> Because in 1 year i will want canon everything. why?
> My predictions are:
> ...



While it's extremely likely that Sony will release a fusion of the A99II and A7RII in 2017, and Nikon will release a D820 with more MP and 4K, unfortunately there is no sign or evidence at all that Canon will release a competitive mirrorless full frame camera with EF mount, or a DSLR that tops the 5D4/1DX2 until the year 2020. The only likely thing to happen in this decade is a 5D version with 80-120MP, like shown at Photokina. Hoping for Canon can mean you lose years of your lifetime working with a way less convenient workflow than necessary.


----------



## ExodistPhotography (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



j-nord said:


> The speedy 5DSR update is good to see! However, if they do put out 100-120mpix, this will truly be a specialty camera.



I quiet agree. While I do not think they will hit the 100MP mark just yet. They could push 60MP. But like you mentioned this would be a pretty much studio only camera IMHO. If they even tried to go 100MP, I am afraid ISO400 would be about the tops one would be able to hit and still be fairly noise free. However in the future when sensor sensitivity has hit a much cleaner level, this could be the case. 

That said, lets look at two major reasons I do not think they will hit 100MP yet. Camera shake will be much much more pronounced, thus making this a camera you will only want to use with studio flashes (or speedlites) and there is the problem with atmospheric distortion that becomes more apparent with extreme MP cameras. While these are would not be noticeable at normal print sizes, every $hthead pixel peeper will be tripping out when looking at the images 1to1.. 

(EDIT)
Also like pointed out above, DIFFRACTION...

SO that said, IMHO it will likely be exactly like the 5D4, but likely 60MP and no AA.. Now IMHO, there is nothing wrong with the 5DSR now, I am highly debating it or the 6D2 next year..


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## 9VIII (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ricky_005 said:


> Canon is like a snake which slithers through the grass hunting for pry, unfortunately we are their victims.
> 
> The company trades on the NYSE and only concerned about the maximum amount of blood they can take without killing the victim.
> 
> ...



The funny thing is that over the last 30 years Canon has been the most aggressive company in the industry.

Canon has worse video features, for now. They are a relatively new start up in that sector (on the professional level) and are actively developing that aspect of their company, but the key phrase here is "photo technology" so video features aren't a factor.
Unless you're using them for photography, in which case Canon has the best 4K solution on the market.

The Shadow Noise Wars lasted all of four years before Canon and Nikon swapped positions in that competition (comparing 1DX2 and D5).

The only way that people can say Canon isn't competing is that they already lead everything. Which is obviously the situation they found themselves in at the end of last decade.

Basically what happened is the competition gave up trying to compete for the high end photography market and went and started a different game to compete in where the winner could be someone other than Canon.
That'll last about another five years.


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## jolyonralph (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I currently own the 5DSR (and a host of other cameras including 5DMk III, A7rII etc).

For me, the reason i bought this was for the resolution. I don't care about video, I don't care (to a huge extent) about ultra-impressive low-light performance, or high frame rate. I want pixels and lots of them.

But then I'm not printing stuff out in general, I'm using stuff online primarily for specialist applications and for this pixels are what I need.

I would hazard a guess that the majority of 5DSR owners are not new to Canon EOS, and that the majority may still have at least one other camera body.

Trying to make the 5DSR II be good at everything will ruin it. If you want a generalist camera the 5D IV is a fantastic option. If 30mpx are too few for you (why?) then the A7RII has a superb sensor.


The 80D sensor (well liked by people here) has a dot pitch of 3.73 µm

Assuming the same dot pitch and the same sensor technology put into a FF sensor, we'd get a resolution of something like 9333x6222 pixels - or around 58 megapixels. 

So i wouldn't be surprised if that was the option chosen by Canon to upgrade the 5DSR.

However, for my needs an upgrade of 50 -> 58 megapixels isn't enough to make me want to upgrade. 

My use of the camera is primarily in well-lit conditions and I am delighted with the quality of the current sensor. The only thing I'd like is to have even more pixels.


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## M_S (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



KT said:


> I was thinking 2017 would only bring us the 6D and 7D mark II replacements and maybe the usual Rebel toys, but I guess concern over the Sony A9 / Nikon D810 replacements was paramount in Canon's boardroom. Probably same AF from 5D Mark IV minus the dual pixel stuff plus low-light sensor improvement



I was thinking the same. I am very pleased what I heard so far from the A9, hopefully they fix some annoyances from the A7 series. Then this will be a tough contender and high on my possible buy list. Spec-wise hard to top. Mark IV will not replace my Mark III for stated reasons. If the 5DSR II improves and they work on the buffer and fps, improve and implement WIFI, then I will have a look. For the time being, Mark III stays with me.


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## mmeerdam (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



douglaurent said:


> While it's extremely likely that Sony will release a fusion of the A99II and A7RII in 2017, and Nikon will release a D820 with more MP and 4K, unfortunately there is no sign or evidence at all that Canon will release a competitive mirrorless full frame camera with EF mount, or a DSLR that tops the 5D4/1DX2 until the year 2020. The only likely thing to happen in this decade is a 5D version with 80-120MP, like shown at Photokina. Hoping for Canon can mean you lose years of your lifetime working with a way less convenient workflow than necessary.



No sign? The 80d sensor had mirrorless (because of dpaf) written all over it when it was released. Not a year later there's the m5 completely based on dpaf for focussing. Now the 5d4 has basically the same tech layout in full frame and they kept it at 30mp. Probably not just because of holding back to not consume the 5ds sales. More so because more mp means more af processing power which would complicate full frame mirrorless too much until the next digic advancement.

I'm 100% sure we'll see a canon 5d4 mirrorless within 2 years tops, probably sooner. 

Canon only releases stable products. They chose dual pixel af as their technology for years to come in favour of pdaf-on-sensor and hold off releasing serious mirrorless until they could roll out their tech reliably systemwide. Now they have the processing power available to advance to release aps-c. Next year it'll be full frame. It's a solid strategy and probably has Nikon worried quite a bit. Nikon will always need to rely on third party development and then needs to integrate seperate technologies into a complete system. 

edit: Canon doesn't really directly respond to actual releases from competitors. Development cycles are way longer than that. I'm sure they know better than we do what Nikon and Sony are developing years ahead.


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## GMCPhotographics (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

At a guess...55.5mp at 5fs?


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## Alex_M (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

There are couple of things that if made available in 5dsr II would really make landscape (and not only) photographers happy:

1. improved dynamic range for capturing high contrast / high dynamic range "too well" lit scene to eliminate multiple exposures when possible.

2. colour depth: 16 bits (65,536 levels per channel) for extra smooth gradients and light fall off, etc,etc ..

apparently, these two points were convincing enough for many photographers (that can afford) to purchase the Mamiya 645DF+ Camera that offers 12.5 stops of Dynamic range and 16 bit per channel colour depth *even at 0.7 - 1.1 frames/sec speed*





jolyonralph said:


> My use of the camera is primarily in well-lit conditions and I am delighted with the quality of the current sensor. The only thing I'd like is to have even more pixels.


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## 9VIII (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



jolyonralph said:


> I currently own the 5DSR (and a host of other cameras including 5DMk III, A7rII etc).
> 
> For me, the reason i bought this was for the resolution. I don't care about video, I don't care (to a huge extent) about ultra-impressive low-light performance, or high frame rate. I want pixels and lots of them.
> 
> ...



I think the argument for a higher burst rate in a 5DS2 is for someone who might combine landscape and wildlife. If you're on the top of a mountain, you want the high resolution Full Frame sensor, but you're going to have some of your best wildlife opportunities during your hike up and down.
This is one point where I would love to see Canon use crop modes for faster burst speeds. They could even scale it differently for APS-H and APS-C.
80MP Full Frame at 3.5fps, 58MP APS-H at 5fps, and 33MP APS-C at 7fps (it could easily do 8, but this is Canon, at 7fps you're still sharing internals with the 5D4).

Maybe that's a better thought for a 1D body though, and bump it up all the way to 9fps. Or heck, make it a 75MP Full Frame sensor and make it 10fps at 31MP (assuming the data processing bandwidth on the 1DX2 is the highest Canon wants to implement right now).
That way some people might even be able to almost reasonably justify the cost of one body that's worth as much as two specialized bodies.


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## Mikehit (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



mmeerdam said:


> No sign? The 80d sensor had mirrorless (because of dpaf) written all over it when it was released. Not a year later there's the m5 completely based on dpaf for focussing. Now the 5d4 has basically the same tech layout in full frame and they kept it at 30mp. Probably not just because of holding back to not consume the 5ds sales. More so because more mp means more af processing power which would complicate full frame mirrorless too much until the next digic advancement.
> 
> I'm 100% sure we'll see a canon 5d4 mirrorless within 2 years tops, probably sooner.
> 
> ...



5D mirrorless in 2 years? No chance. 
Battery life in mirrorless cameras is pathetic and considering the profile that the 5D4 is aimed at I doubt any pro or serious amateur will want to be out in the field changing batteries 3 times a day risking missing the shot. 
And AF performance on pure mirrorless is not as good - saying that [choose manufacturer, probably 'Sony'] is 'nearly as good' will not cut it for the pro or serious amateur. Don't forget that Canon's dual pixel is used largely for video and live view, not general stills photography. Introducing a new technology with strong upsides is irrelevant if the functions they need and rely on (and buy it for) drop in effectiveness or quality. This is the part that many wishlisters forget.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Alex_M said:


> There are couple of things that if made available in 5dsr II would really make landscape (and not only) photographers happy:
> 
> 1. improved dynamic range for capturing high contrast / high dynamic range "too well" lit scene to eliminate multiple exposures when possible.
> 
> ...



Your definition of 'many photographers' is quite different than Canon's – I suspect Canon would consider the total global sales of the 645DF+ to be 'insignificant' compared to the 5Ds/R unit sales.


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## Bernard (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

What they need to fix in the 5Ds camera is the viewfinder. It's a 50 megapixel camera with a 5 megapixel viewfinder!
The non-interchangeable screen is soft (but bright), and it's overlaid with tons of useless information. This makes it impossible to use all the megapixels without resorting to live view and a tripod. You might as well go mirrorless.

I can understand the cheap vf in the 5D4, because people use that camera for sports with AF, but it's shameful on the 5Ds. Canon is an optical company at heart, they should be able to engineer a viewfinder.

Other than that, I'm sure we'll see DPAF and a slight DR increase. I wouldn't count on 4K, that's what the 5D4 and C300-2 are for.


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## jeffa4444 (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Ive owned & used the 5DS since August 2015 and taken thousands of shots with it some of which have been used on stand backgrounds so pretty big printed. Firstly the low pass filter argument is really a non-starter the difference is almost impossible to see whereas moire you can clearly see when it occurs normally in certain clothing or brickwork etc, in landscape never. 
The diffraction argument (some say f6.7 some say f8) again is hardly noticed up to f11 and that where I aim for in landscape. Image blur? yes you need to be more careful but its good practise you need to follow. The resolution improvements and the ability to severely crop (if required) are real world benefits of 50MP and the mechanical changes Canon made really do make a difference. 

I can see Canon changing to simplify production using the same shell, electronics, battery grip etc. as to other changes built in Wi-Fi, GPS as the 5D MKIV and the 6D make sense as this is a great landscape camera. The other area is dynamic range the single biggest in the field problem with the current camera in low light it simply struggles. Other than that I cannot see why you would need 70 / 120MP but if that's the road they take they will need to speed up lens improvements because contrary to others on this thread you can see the lens limitations at 50MP even if its still better resolution than at 20-30MP but Nyquist is an argument for another day.


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## Alex_M (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I agree with you, because not many were able to afford the associated cost. hence my statement is: many photographers (that can afford) ... 
I am sure, that most if not all 5dsr owners will appreciate base ISO DR boost and 16bit colors per channel option if available and does not cost them a kidney or even two.




neuroanatomist said:


> Alex_M said:
> 
> 
> > There are couple of things that if made available in 5dsr II would really make landscape (and not only) photographers happy:
> ...


----------



## jolyonralph (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



9VIII said:


> I think the argument for a higher burst rate in a 5DS2 is for someone who might combine landscape and wildlife.
> 
> That way some people might even be able to almost reasonably justify the cost of one body that's worth as much as two specialized bodies.



I don't disagree. I was stating my particular requirements which are never going to be the same as everyone elses. I presume higher burst in 5DS2 could be achieved with CFast2 and moving to dual Digic 7 - but as nice as that is for me it's not a dealbreaker.

I still think for people who want a *single* body the 5DMkIV is a better option (at least right now), and if I were going up that mountain with the 5DSR and a nice wideangle lens, I'd keep another body handy (An EOS M5 for example) for 'close encounters'.


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## mmeerdam (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Mikehit said:


> 5D mirrorless in 2 years? No chance.
> Battery life in mirrorless cameras is pathetic and considering the profile that the 5D4 is aimed at I doubt any pro or serious amateur will want to be out in the field changing batteries 3 times a day risking missing the shot.
> And AF performance on pure mirrorless is not as good - saying that [choose manufacturer, probably 'Sony'] is 'nearly as good' will not cut it for the pro or serious amateur. Don't forget that Canon's dual pixel is used largely for video and live view, not general stills photography. Introducing a new technology with strong upsides is irrelevant if the functions they need and rely on (and buy it for) drop in effectiveness or quality. This is the part that many wishlisters forget.



It won't be called a 5d obviously and it wont be a replacement. Same setup as the m5. Just same megapixels and video functions as 5d4. By the way how is the dual pixel af on the m5 for stills. have you tried? I guess not. I know Sony isn't on par, i went that route and hate it. But in a year to 2 years the tech should have caught up. It is also why Canon uses dpaf instead of pdaf, they believe dpaf will be betetr than on sensor pdaf. Sony will hit a plateau probably with pdaf. dpaf speed is only limited by throughput and processing power which will keep increasing. pdaf will get more complicated (and less reliable) as pixels and therefore pdaf points will decrease in size.

Maybe hybrid or even mirrorless 5d series in 4 years. perfect planning.
I'm not a wishlister at all with this. I'm describing a eos systems strategy prediction which i think would fit Canon as a company. Everybody said the 5d4 would not have more than 24 maybe 28 mp. I predicted it would have 30 at least because of long term strategy needs not because of personal preferences. 

My personal wishlist is a 42mp, hybrid viewfinder 5d4, that does full frame video and 4k at 60fps. AN all round in between. But it won't get made, i know.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Mikehit said:


> mmeerdam said:
> 
> 
> > No sign? The 80d sensor had mirrorless (because of dpaf) written all over it when it was released. Not a year later there's the m5 completely based on dpaf for focussing. Now the 5d4 has basically the same tech layout in full frame and they kept it at 30mp. Probably not just because of holding back to not consume the 5ds sales. More so because more mp means more af processing power which would complicate full frame mirrorless too much until the next digic advancement.
> ...



I don't think anyone belives Canon will _replace_ the 5D series with mirrorless any time soon, nor do I think that's being suggested. 

I do think it's certainly possible for Canon to bring out a FF MILC within two years. Most likely it would be at the 6D level, not aimed at the 'pro' market. Being possible doesn't mean it will be done, climbing Mt. Everest because it's there isn't necessarily a sound business strategy.


----------



## JMZawodny (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



rrcphoto said:


> it would be around 1EV different from the 50MP DSLR, or you use it with oversampling in mind. at the same print sizes, the 120Mp sensor will certainly look better than 50mp and have the same influence of camera shake.
> 
> not to mention that most full frame shooters apparently don't have the discipline for APS-C cropped sensors that are a higher pixel density because they are losing their minds at 50mp.
> 
> ...



I completely agree.

I had to really improve my technique when I got the 7D2. I had been shooting with the 5D2 up until then. My photos with the 7D2 were initially a very mixed bag of slightly blurred with an occasional sharp image. At the time, the web was full of stories and posts of the 7D2 having soft focus issues (it could not be the photographer's fault). I eventually improved my technique and now the photos are rarely soft (unless it is my fault and I generally know right away which ones will be bad).

I've since replaced the 5D2 with a 1Dx2 for low light and I'd love a 60+mp 5Ds2 for landscapes, once I retire in a just over a year. The M5 is going to have some very tiny pixels and I think the small form factor of that body is going challenge my technique once again.

Live and learn (I mean that in a positive sense).


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## Jack Douglas (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

mmeerdam, good comments. And about people wasting their lives waiting for Canon .... oh me oh my. 

Jack


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## rrcphoto (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

intriguing comments.. could they / would they decide that the 5Ds Mark II is mirrorless? is there actually an advantage of it being that way?

I can't see it "quite" yet .. however I think the key will be the 6D - if it is going for smaller and lighter, that may be a good change to make the first EF mount mirrorless camera. You'd think that since the 6D isn't built for high performance AF they could roll with this. it makes the camera smaller, and lighter and cheaper to manufacturer. 

Canon rolling out the first $1600 full frame camera? possible? *before sony fans snivel.. no A7 series camera was announced at less than $1699. what sony is trying to dump them for now because no one wants them is not relevant.

Then you have the 6D as the mirrorless 24-28MP option

The 5D IV and 5Ds Mark II still OVF until the next version which would then most likely move to mirrorless hybrid.


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## ahsanford (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



neuroanatomist said:


> I don't think anyone belives Canon will _replace_ the 5D series with mirrorless any time soon, nor do I think that's being suggested.
> 
> I do think it's certainly possible for Canon to bring out a FF MILC within two years. Most likely it would be at the 6D level, not aimed at the 'pro' market. Being possible doesn't mean it will be done, climbing Mt. Everest because it's there isn't necessarily a sound business strategy.



+1. Between progress in various areas (DPAF, EVF, controls in a EOS-M5 form factor, etc.) the tech is there to get *a* ship out of port, but it may not be the prettiest ship out there. Battery life, handling and general responsiveness will not be of the 5D's (or even the 6D's) spit and polish, but it will take lovely images if you can cope with that.

And no one on the planet is suggesting a future 5D5 (or 5DS3) will only come out in mirrorless. That would be madness. Far more likely Canon makes a FF mirrorless it's own brand (or sub-brand) to be sold either standalone of any 5D/5Ds/6D developments or to be sold immediately alongside those brands as another option. 

I also cling to the zany theory that a new FF mirrorless might hit the market with a fixed lens like the Sony RX1 and Leica Q brands. This will let Canon get the enthusiasts a bleeding edge offering while they can continue to evolve the interchangeable mount... which may or may not be new.

- A


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## Mikehit (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



rrcphoto said:


> intriguing comments.. could they / would they decide that the 5Ds Mark II is mirrorless? is there actually an advantage of it being that way?
> 
> I can't see it "quite" yet .. however I think the key will be the 6D - if it is going for smaller and lighter, that may be a good change to make the first EF mount mirrorless camera. You'd think that since the 6D isn't built for high performance AF they could roll with this. it makes the camera smaller, and lighter and cheaper to manufacturer.
> 
> ...



That seems reasonable - I guess it depends on how much their mirrorless technologies advanced in the time since they started laying the groundwork for the M5. Several have said that the M5 is expensive for what it is but if it was the test bed for the next 6D that could make sense.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Mikehit said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > intriguing comments.. could they / would they decide that the 5Ds Mark II is mirrorless? is there actually an advantage of it being that way?
> ...



time to R&D the 6D would be somewhere around 2-3 years .. hard to say really.


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## GMCPhotographics (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Alex_M said:


> There are couple of things that if made available in 5dsr II would really make landscape (and not only) photographers happy:
> 
> 1. improved dynamic range for capturing high contrast / high dynamic range "too well" lit scene to eliminate multiple exposures when possible.
> 
> ...



I've not met a single photographer that feels that the "lack of DR" is SO important in issue that they buy a 645 camera and system...every...EVERY photographer that I know that is either pro, semi pro or rich and serious hobbyist shoots 2 frames are different exposures and combines in Photoshop. I do not know of a single photographer who has a 645 as you described. You must know some very weird and unusual photographers.


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## ricky_005 (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

*Canon 5D Mark IV Cheap CMOS Image Sensor Exposed*
If you under expose a picture and adjust the exposure up 5 stops it can expose the defect in Canons New CMOS Image Sensor. 

See Attached Image: The exposure has been increased 5 stops so you can see the defects. See the strips in the image? This is exposing a Horrible inconsistency in the new canon sensor.

Expect the same results in the New 5DS replacement?


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*


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## privatebydesign (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ricky_005 said:


> Canon is like a snake which slithers through the grass hunting for pry, unfortunately we are their victims.
> 
> The company trades on the NYSE and only concerned about the maximum amount of blood they can take without killing the victim.
> 
> ...



Now that is an excellent example of the limitations of phone cameras. With a scene like that you can't beat a decent sized sensor, thanks for making the point so well.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



privatebydesign said:


> ricky_005 said:
> 
> 
> > Canon is like a snake which slithers through the grass hunting for pry, unfortunately we are their victims.
> ...



I thought it looked almost ok when I viewed it on my iPhone.


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## ricky_005 (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



neuroanatomist said:


>



I knew speaking the truth would bring out the Canon Shill's

Hahaha


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ricky_005 said:


> *Canon 5D Mark IV Cheap CMOS Image Sensor Exposed*
> If you under expose a picture and adjust the exposure up 5 stops it can expose the defect in Canons New CMOS Image Sensor.
> 
> See Attached Image: The exposure has been increased 5 stops so you can see the defects. See the strips in the image? This is exposing a Horrible inconsistency in the new canon sensor.
> ...



Yeah... I'm one of those weirdos that tries to appropriately expose his images. I fully see the point you are making, but when you expose the shot properly, you don't need to push things 5 stops and that issue doesn't ever materialize. It's a neat parlour trick if your sensor allows it, but I don't need to save a wedding shot that I accidentally horrifically underexposed because I am not a pro.

I will admit the absolutely bush league move of occasionally *not* stitching together multiple exposures (as GMC said earlier) and doing the dreaded 'single shot HDR' move of a large highlight pull and shadow push in the same RAW file, but that's usually when I'm shooting comically contrasty scenes and a tripod is not possible or practical (like hiking in canyons with sky in frame). But when I do this, I make sure not to hammer the RAW sliders so hard as to render the image unrealistic.

- A


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ricky_005 said:


> I knew speaking the truth would bring out the Canon Shill's
> Hahaha



Odd that DPR's 6-stop push of a 5DIV image doesn't show banding. But that's ok, you've shown us the truth. : : :


----------



## ricky_005 (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



neuroanatomist said:


> ricky_005 said:
> 
> 
> > I knew speaking the truth would bring out the Canon Shill's
> ...



Apparently only when a image is underexposed then pushed 5 stops or so in photo editing software it shows the horrible defect. Sony sensors don't exhibit this behavior, the noise is Even and Consistent. Older Canon sensor did not exhibit this behavior, Canon screwed something up with this new sensor! Even when exposure is correct the quality of the pixels in the problem areas of the sensor are of lower quality!


----------



## Jack Douglas (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Like cockroaches coming out of the cracks, pretty harmless but annoying. 

Jack


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## j-nord (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> ricky_005 said:
> 
> 
> > *Canon 5D Mark IV Cheap CMOS Image Sensor Exposed*
> ...



I often heavily pull/push highlights/shadows in Lightroom without producing a 'comical HDR look'. At least, I don't think so, this one might be borderline: 



Maroon Bells by Justin Nordgaard - very busy, on Flickr


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## ahsanford (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ricky_005 said:


> Apparently only when a image is underexposed then pushed 5 stops or so in photo editing software it shows the horrible defect. Sony sensors don't exhibit this behavior, the noise is Even and Consistent. Older Canon sensor did not exhibit this behavior, Canon screwed something up with this new sensor! Even when exposure is correct the quality of the pixels in the problem areas of the sensor are of lower quality!



You know, _I never thought of it that way!_ That's a sterling point you've made.

I think I'll go throw all of my Canon gear off of a bridge -- and myself, while I'm at it.

Or I could expose my shots properly and disregard the ravings of someone with _005 in their ID and less than 10 posts to their name. :

- A


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## ahsanford (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



j-nord said:


> I often heavily pull/push highlights/shadows in Lightroom without producing a 'comical HDR look'. At least, I don't think so, this one might be borderline:
> 
> 
> 
> Maroon Bells by Justin Nordgaard - very busy, on Flickr



You are far from alone with shots like that. Happens to me all the time.

I just spent a roadtrip in Zion, Bryce and Death Valley, and since I was hiking with non-photographers, things like scouting locations, golden hour, ISO 100, LiveView AF, hyperfocal distances, tripods, ND grads, etc. were replaced with glaring mid-day sun, run-and-gun, handheld, f/8 - f/11, auto-ISO, and more three shot brackets than you can count. You make do with what you can. 

- A


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## ricky_005 (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



neuroanatomist said:


> ricky_005 said:
> 
> 
> > I knew speaking the truth would bring out the Canon Shill's
> ...



Here is a video in which Matt Granger stumbled across the same horrible image sensor problem with the new Canon 5D Mark IV. 

Discussion around the 13:00 mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmfMLeB3lJw

Nikon's pic the guys shirt is blue which is close to original, The canon pic the guys shirt in the video turned turd GREEN and Matt says ........ Nikon colors went all blue and unnatural and the canon stayed true...LMAO


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## unfocused (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ricky_005 said:


> *Canon 5D Mark IV Cheap CMOS Image Sensor Exposed*
> If you under expose a picture and adjust the exposure up 5 stops it can expose the defect in Canons New CMOS Image Sensor...



This is a joke, right?

If you underexposed the image and pushed it five stops in post and it is *still* that dark, then the original was probably more like eight to 10 stops underexposed. 

I don't go around purposely underexposing, but it does happen on occasion.

I can't speak for the 5DIV, but I had an experience with the 1DX II (same generation and fabrication for the sensor) in which I didn't give the strobe enough time to recycle and got some frames that were significantly underexposed. That happens because I'm sometimes a little impatient with the speedlites. Just as an experiment I decided to try to salvage a few. I was actually able to get them looking decent by upping the exposure in Adobe Camera Raw. Now, they weren't really usable, because the lighting was ambient, rather than the strobes, but I was actually surprised that what looked almost completely black in Raw, looked pretty decent once I upped the exposure, contrast, shadows, etc.

So, back to may original question: You are joking, right?


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ricky_005 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > ricky_005 said:
> ...



DPR's image _was_ underexposed by 6 stops then pushed in post. Where's the horrible defect? As biased as DPR's writing can be, they are generally decent at producing studio test images. So who screwed something up, here?


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## ricky_005 (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



neuroanatomist said:


> ricky_005 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



I know the truth can hurt Shill ........ watch Matts video or is the truth to painful for ya?

Discussion around the 13:00 mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmfMLeB3lJw


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## takesome1 (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ricky_005 said:


> *Canon 5D Mark IV Cheap CMOS Image Sensor Exposed*
> If you under expose a picture and adjust the exposure up 5 stops it can expose the defect in Canons New CMOS Image Sensor.
> 
> See Attached Image: The exposure has been increased 5 stops so you can see the defects. See the strips in the image? This is exposing a Horrible inconsistency in the new canon sensor.
> ...



Perhaps you should be shooting in green square mode then you wouldn't be underexposing. It looks like you are not ready for M mode.


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## Larsskv (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ricky_005 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > ricky_005 said:
> ...



The video shows that Canon beats the sonikon sensor at 4 stops. Colors are WAY better with the Canon. It must hurt a DR junky like you.


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## RGF (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Wonder if Canon will ever incorporate/design a foveon type sensor or allow both half of a dual pixel sensor to work independently?

This could increase effective resolution by 2-3 (Foveon sensor) and boost DR by 4-5 stops 

Rich


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## Mikehit (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

How do you arrive at that conclusion?


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## unfocused (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Larsskv said:


> ricky_005 said:
> 
> 
> > I know the truth can hurt Shill ........ watch Matts video or is the truth to painful for ya?
> ...



This is funny. Funny as in ha! ha! 

The video purports to show that the Canon is better at four stops underexposed (using ISO 800 as the base), but at five stops underexposed, the Nikon is better. So, I guess the lesson to be learned is that if you are going to underexpose your ISO 800 shots by four stops, use a Canon, but if you are going to underexpose your shots by five stops, use a Nikon.

Now, if you are a real weirdo and you actually expose your shots properly, then you can apparently use either one. But, really, who would do that when you can severely underexpose your shots?


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## Sporgon (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

So this is a 5 stop lift in 8 bit JPEG ? 

Yawn :


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## 9VIII (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Sporgon said:


> So this is a 5 stop lift in 8 bit JPEG ?
> 
> Yawn :



I certainly thought that was odd as well.

Youtube personalities can be valuable sometimes, but they all seem to have a hard time with technical subjects at some point.
I'd still say Matt is one of the most level headed people on there though.


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## much (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Canon what about c100 mkIII????? :'(


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ricky_005 said:


> I know the truth can hurt





9VIII said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > So this is a 5 stop lift in 8 bit JPEG ?
> ...



Indeed.


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## ricky_005 (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



9VIII said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > So this is a 5 stop lift in 8 bit JPEG ?
> ...



Matt is one of many good reviewers on you tube. He showed you the truth about the MARK IV if you watch the video but you have to keep in mind Canon gives Matt perks in the form of gifts etc. (Read Between the lines)

This thread if you noticed we have Canon Shills trying to discredit facts ..... We know who you are Bone Heads!


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## mmeerdam (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ricky_005 said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > Sporgon said:
> ...



his head might be level, the rest of matt is well ehmm less level...


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ricky_005 said:


> Matt is one of many good reviewers on you tube. He showed you the truth about the MARK IV if you watch the video



Then why does DPR get drastically different results – no banding – with an even stronger push in post? Hey Ricky, why don't you pull a rabbit out of your hat and explain that one… 

It seems there's more than one version of 'truth'. Did you know that gullible isn't in the dictionary?


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## fussy III (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



neuroanatomist said:


> Alex_M said:
> 
> 
> > There are couple of things that if made available in 5dsr II would really make landscape (and not only) photographers happy:
> ...



Have to step in, neuroanatomist, which should not come as a surprise to you: Alex was talking about photographers that deserve the title. He was not talking about wannabees, sales representatives or shortsighted shareholders both complimenting themselves on past successes.

Yet even the wannabees or amateurs (in the best sense) would we impressed through reviews of true photographers if these were to claim that Canon had made a big step in the direction of medium format dynamic range and colordepth wise. 

If Canon could credibly run a campain under the motto "We care about photography" rather than "We care about sales" they'd be back on track for the long run. Credibility is earned through the approval of the most critical of minds (That is btw why Fujifilm GFX will succeed).

I don't say that Canon is *******. But sometimes it comes across that they lost focus in photographers. And that troubles me. I wish for Canon to correct this rather sooner than later.

As you know I want it all. So I am hoping that rather than crippling the 5Dsr, they will give it every effort (including flippytilt, DR, weather sealing and high fps) and raise the price if they really have to. I see it as a duty of each company that they show what they can do. This bright light will shine onto all their other products. That was the case with the EOS-1n for example or now with the Silberpfeil for Mercedes-Benz. I believe it will help to generate sales of lower profiled products in the line-up.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

If they can remove the DPAF to get back another stop of low ISO DR, but also put in high quality over-sampled 4k video like Sony (with manual focusing aids like a 2x zoomed 2:1 live focusing box ala Magic Lantern and basically any usable camera in the world). Get it to hit 6fps FF mode and 7-8fps in a 1.6x cropped (IN RAW not the ridiculous cropped JPG mode which is useless) mode. That would be sweet.

I'm loving the performance from Sony but even for landscape stuff there is a downside. The electronic VF. Now strictly speaking is actually better for photography in a way, better focus confirmation, etc. etc. BUT it makes the experience worse. It turns being out in nature from a mix of looking around and shooting but still directly seeing with one eye, the world, into starting at a screen for yet endless more hours and after a year I can now say that is what annoys me the most in the end about a switch from using a Sony a lot more than a Canon 5D3.

It's just a nicer, more outdoorsy experience to use a regular SLR-type VF than an electronic one (even if the latter is in certain ways a bit better for photography at times).


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## unfocused (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



fussy III said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Alex_M said:
> ...



I try...I really do...but sometimes people say such incredibly ridiculous things that *I* have to "step in."

Just what do you think constitutes a "true photographer?" 

There are many definitions, but it is inarguable (at least inarguable with anyone of normal intelligence) that the highest definition of a photographer would be someone whose work has been so broadly recognized that there is little to no doubt that his or her work will outlast their lifetime and will speak to people across the decades. 

A few names obviously pop to mind: Edward Weston, Paul Strand, Robert Frank, Irving Penn, Dorothea Lange, Robert Capa, Henri Cartier-Bresson, Garry Winogrand, Jerry Uelsmann, Martin Parr...to name a handful.

Some of these "true photographers" were excellent craftspeople. Others, not so much. The common denominator is vision, not technical perfection. Indeed, some like Robert Frank, Cartier-Bresson and Garry Winogrand produced images that were far from technically perfect (although their vision often was perfect).

I know this is a geek forum and people here often equate technical virtuosity and pretty pictures with quality, but they are not the same. There are many, many photographers today whose work might be considered technically perfect, but you can rest assured that they will be long forgotten, while the true greats will continue to be studied, displayed and collected. 

So please, spare me your ignorant remarks about "true photographers."


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



fussy III said:


> Have to step in, neuroanatomist, which should not come as a surprise to you:



If you want to make yourself look foolish, that's your choice. 




fussy III said:


> Alex was talking about photographers that deserve the title. He was not talking about wannabees, sales representatives or shortsighted shareholders both complimenting themselves on past successes.



Alex highlighted the fact that one of his main criteria was 'can afford'. So, you seem to be saying that commercial success or independent wealth is what makes photographers deserving of the title. Sounds elitist and narrow-minded. How sad. 




fussy III said:


> If Canon could credibly run a campain under the motto "We care about photography" rather than "We care about sales" they'd be back on track for the long run. Credibility is earned through the approval of the most critical of minds (That is btw why Fujifilm GTX will succeed).



That's actually quite laughable. As a publicly traded company, Fujifilm has the same goal – and legal mandate – as Canon: strive to return value to shareholders. They have chosen the market segments in which they engage, in large part, because Canon and Nikon do not dominate those market segments. If you believe any for-profit camera maker can legitimately state they "care about photography," (as opposed to caring about profiting from the sale of photography gear), then you have the kind of highly suggestible mind that marketing departments love. 




fussy III said:


> I don't say that Canon is *******. But sometimes it comes across that they lost focus in photographers. And that troubles me. I wish for Canon to correct this rather sooner than later.



Comes across to whom? You? "Many photographers?" Yeah, you're stepping in it all right…you can scrape it off your shoes, but the smell won't go away.


----------



## deleteme (Oct 13, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



unfocused said:


> ricky_005 said:
> 
> 
> > *Canon 5D Mark IV Cheap CMOS Image Sensor Exposed*
> ...



Precisely.


----------



## tmroper (Oct 14, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

So if it gets 4K like the 5D IV, what will that be, like a 3X crop?


----------



## mmeerdam (Oct 14, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Normalnorm said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > ricky_005 said:
> ...



Completely right!
By the way, i played around with the 5d4 raw -underexposed leaves against a sunset- shot from the dpreview gallery.
I can get it to show the banding in the leaves when pushing 3 stops and maxing the shadows slider. 
It's an extreme case but it does create a limit to pushing the shadows. A Nikon will be able to recover a little more. Big deal. Were talking scenarios where on a Nikon i probably would only use it when converting to black and white anyway because also on a Nikon pushing 5 stops introduces just enough really weird colour in the darks that's hard to correct. 

On Another note: When pushing a d810 file 5 stops or so at 400 iso +, it also shows lighter banding around the bottom quarter of the frame, only this is a magenta haze and less of a multicolour banding. Also has dot correct just a little less obvious. (look at the iso invarience comparison at 5 stop push).
edit : even iso 100 pushed 4 stops has this magenta cast at the bottom part.


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## Alex_M (Oct 14, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I do not want to start an argument, but would Joe Brady qualify as a "single photographer who has 645"?

others: Neil Folberg, Robb Williamson, David Levinthal, D'Milo Hallerberg, ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4iiKcuv_is

at 27:40 mark. explanation 16 bit vs 14 bit benefit.

and yes, multiple exposure technique works really well in uncontrolled light situation.. most of time, but not always...(wild life, fast changing lighting conditions, moving clouds, other fast moving subjects in the frame, etc..)

all I said is: 16 bit colour per channel and improved camera dynamic range at base ISO will be great to have .. yes, beneficial but not a requirement. I shoot with 6D and can do just fine with it. That said, I would love to shoot with Mamiya 645 instead. I cannot afford the camera though ...

https://www.sigmaphoto.com/photo-galleries/photosharesm/roof-top-parking-crown-casino-melbourne-au



GMCPhotographics said:


> Alex_M said:
> 
> 
> > There are couple of things that if made available in 5dsr II would really make landscape (and not only) photographers happy:
> ...


----------



## 9VIII (Oct 14, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ricky_005 said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > Sporgon said:
> ...



He shows us the limitations of an 8 bit jpeg. That really isn't a good demonstration of anything.


----------



## Sporgon (Oct 14, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



9VIII said:


> ricky_005 said:
> 
> 
> > 9VIII said:
> ...



Also in order to raise 5 stops he's had to under expose by 5 stops, so the raw would have been black. God knows what the in camera JPEG conversion is meant to do ! The "mess" that the process has made of it could actually be due to beneficial processing in something that is remotely correct in exposure. 

It's a farsical test, the Internet at its worst. Very disappointed Matt.


----------



## privatebydesign (Oct 14, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



9VIII said:


> ricky_005 said:
> 
> 
> > 9VIII said:
> ...



What I find most disappointing about these self appointed opinionators asinine comments is they are so dumb they don't even get that they are talking utter crap. 

The multitude of followers then go on forums with their 'proof' of a characteristic and we end up here, "the Canon 5D MkIV can do four stop lifts but not five stop lifts", the fact that they were jpeg captures gets lost in translation and people actually looking for relevant info get this nonsense served up in a Google search.

It seems this age of freely available information is not lifting us all up to a higher level of knowledge, it is just resulting in a constant battle between those that understand what was shown and those that simply read the headline/bullet point of a badly written or explained invalid point.


----------



## rrcphoto (Oct 14, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Normalnorm said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > ricky_005 said:
> ...



the ISO 800 example was even worse... 

for instance it's the equivalent on an ISOless sensor of boosting 8EV.

Also .. extreme pushing is kind of irrelevant .. look at how the D810 turns to magenta banding after 5-6EV and the D5 turns to banding after around 3-4.

We're not even talking about canon here.


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 14, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



privatebydesign said:


> It seems this age of freely available information is not lifting us all up to a higher level of knowledge, it is just resulting in a constant battle between those that understand what was shown and those that simply read the headline/bullet point of a badly written or explained invalid point.



You just perfectly described politics in America.

- A


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## mmeerdam (Oct 14, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Shall we stop debating the DR nonsense? I would love to hear some opinions on how much megapixels we deem likely for the 5dsr2. Will Canon allow it to be less than the rumored Sony from a marketing perspective? (obviously with the 5d4 they chose not to compete on specs with Nikon). 

edit: I mean including me, not trying to be blunt


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## glness (Oct 14, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I hope this is true. With the new sensor technology that many have been waiting for patiently, Canon should be moving up their typical refresh timetable on all their major camera bodies. That includes a new 6D II, a 7D III as well as a 5DS R II. It probably applies equally to the Rebel series, too. I hope these are all sooner rather than later.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 15, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



fussy III said:


> If Canon could credibly run a campain under the motto "We care about photography" rather than "We care about sales" they'd be back on track for the long run.* Credibility is earned through the approval of the most critical of minds* (That is btw why Fujifilm GFX will succeed).



Maybe they think putting cameras into as many hands as possible does more for photography than being elitist? And as for the part I've highlighted: says who? Credibility can be earned in different ways.



fussy III said:


> I don't say that Canon is *******. But sometimes it comes across that they lost focus in photographers. And that troubles me. I wish for Canon to correct this rather sooner than later.



So are the latest Canon cameras unable to take good photographs? Be honest, "lost focus on photographers" means 'didn't deliver what I personally wanted'.

PS it's spelled 'wannabe'.


----------



## dak723 (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



fussy III said:


> If Canon could credibly run a campain under the motto "We care about photography" rather than "We care about sales" they'd be back on track for the long run. Credibility is earned through the approval of the most critical of minds (That is btw why Fujifilm GFX will succeed).
> 
> I don't say that Canon is *******. But sometimes it comes across that they lost focus in photographers. And that troubles me. I wish for Canon to correct this rather sooner than later.



Don't know this personally, but it is always reported that Canon gets the majority of feedback regarding its products and what is desired in a new camera from PRO photographers. It seems for my perspective, that they deliver cameras that PRO photographers want - extremely well built, easy to use, comfortable to hold, excellent AF, very reliable exposure, excellent color. They are not that interested in what the "techies" or "spec counters" want, many of which are merely gimmicks, or such high end specs (such as 14 bit vs. 12 bit compressed RAW for continuous shooting) that actually do nothing noticeably positive, but do have negative impacts in terms of taking photos. Thank goodness Canon does get feedback from PRO photographers or we would end up with a super spec camera that is unreliable, harder to use and doesn't take better photos in any way.


----------



## Jopa (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



dak723 said:


> They are not that interested in what the "techies" or "spec counters" want, many of which are merely gimmicks, or such high end specs (such as 14 bit vs. 12 bit compressed RAW for continuous shooting) that actually do nothing noticeably positive, but do have negative impacts in terms of taking photos.


Recently I was thinking about the same thing. To satisfy the "spec counters" Canon should introduce a separate product line, something like "Canon C7". Bloat it with "specs" and gimmics, no one cares if they aren't even working, because the spec counters don't buy anything and don't take pictures, but they all will be so happy to see the specs and b/vlog about them


----------



## RGF (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Wonder if Canon will ever work a deal with Sony. Imagine the sensor in the A7R II in a Canon body. That would be an excellent camera, even if only 40-something MP.


----------



## wockawocka (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



RGF said:


> Wonder if Canon will ever work a deal with Sony. Imagine the sensor in the A7R II in a Canon body. That would be an excellent camera, even if only 40-something MP.



We've already got that sensor performance in the 5D4, but with much better colours. Upscale that to 51mp....


----------



## hubie (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

So basically it will be the 5D we hoped for?
5D mk IV with high resolution Sensor and no lowpass filter.

Perhaps also some changes to video but I don't think so yet, as both features mentioned aboth will already set it apart from the 5D mk IV quite significantly. May be even crippled video capabilities but definitely no improvements there (just my guess). Less fps (may be 5 or in that region), smaller buffer & stuff..., let's see.


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## mmeerdam (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

An aa filter on the 5d4 was almost a given in hindsight. Most wedding photographers didn't want 24+ megapixel and don't want moire issues at any time. Canon knew they could risk to trail too much - mp wise - behind the d810 and it's upcoming succesor or even more the inevitable cheaper d750 successor. So 30 is a safe number and will not impact file size and handling speed too much. Wedding en portrait photographers happy enough, they can also film some footage with dpaf which is a big plus. Those who really need high mp can be serviced with the other 5d(s). If the plan was from the start to release an 5ds2 pretty soon they will not worry about people switching to Nikon because few less experienced new buyers will pick the older camera over a brand new one with a couple of more megapixels. People invested in Canon but considering a switch will wait until the new Nikon release meanwhile. They only have to step up when Nikon actually releases their d810 succesor. Canon is ready whenever. Canon will then unofficially leak (they already do actually) a successor of a 5dsr is coming and most gearheads will hold out to see what's up. Most current 5dsr users will not opt out, because the 5dsr is actually good enough to see what's next and decide later.....

that'll keep us busy for about a year. ;D ;D


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 17, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



neuroanatomist said:


> As a publicly traded company, Fujifilm has the same goal – *and legal mandate* – as Canon: strive to return value to shareholders.



Intersting, tell me about that legal mandate.


----------



## Mikehit (Oct 17, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



romanr74 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > As a publicly traded company, Fujifilm has the same goal – *and legal mandate* – as Canon: strive to return value to shareholders.
> ...



how about spending 10 minutes on the internet....


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 17, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Mikehit said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Why should we expect anyone on CR to have better business acumen than a small bowl of jello? :


----------



## jeffa4444 (Oct 17, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ricky_005 said:


> *Canon 5D Mark IV Cheap CMOS Image Sensor Exposed*
> If you under expose a picture and adjust the exposure up 5 stops it can expose the defect in Canons New CMOS Image Sensor.
> 
> See Attached Image: The exposure has been increased 5 stops so you can see the defects. See the strips in the image? This is exposing a Horrible inconsistency in the new canon sensor.
> ...


I really push my cameras and yes Ive had banding and bemoaned it on the 6D. In the 5DS so far Ive never seen or noticed banding and the test your reporting here is bordering on blockhead stupid with the 5D MKIV. Who in real world shooting under exposes 5 stops and then boosts the image 5 stops? Frankly its a crazy idea and would show artefacts in ANY camera. 
Maybe you should get out more and actually take photographs.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 17, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



neuroanatomist said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



Very true, very true... sadly...

This I call reliable strategy: Immediate insult. But only that. Donald, is that you?


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 17, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



RGF said:


> Wonder if Canon will ever work a deal with Sony. Imagine the sensor in the A7R II in a Canon body. That would be an excellent camera, even if only 40-something MP.



People were waiting for Nikon to make a D820 or D900 with that very same sensor and it never happened. I am very curious why that didn't materialize (was sony's price too high, did Nikon have something better in-house that they wanted to use, did Nikon want to break its reliance on EXMOR, etc?), but your guess is as good as mine.

- A


----------



## RGF (Oct 17, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



neuroanatomist said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



You are being unfair to the jello


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 18, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



RGF said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...



I'm sure he didn't want to hurt your feelings...


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 18, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



jebrady03 said:


> Alex_M said:
> 
> 
> > I would personally be happy with 50mp sensor but improved high ISO performance instead.
> ...



No, dual pixels.


----------



## tr573 (Oct 18, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



romanr74 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > As a publicly traded company, Fujifilm has the same goal – *and legal mandate* – as Canon: strive to return value to shareholders.
> ...



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Oct 18, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



hubie said:


> So basically it will be the 5D we hoped for?
> 5D mk IV with high resolution Sensor and no lowpass filter.
> 
> Perhaps also some changes to video but I don't think so yet, as both features mentioned aboth will already set it apart from the 5D mk IV quite significantly. May be even crippled video capabilities but definitely no improvements there (just my guess). Less fps (may be 5 or in that region), smaller buffer & stuff..., let's see.



No....the 5D4 that YOU hoped for...most photographers are quite happy with the 5D4 as it already is.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 18, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



tr573 said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Does it read "Dodge is often misread or mistaught as setting a legal rule of shareholder wealth maximization. This was not and is not the law. Shareholder wealth maximization is a standard of conduct for officers and directors, not a legal mandate" and "among non-experts, conventional wisdom holds that corporate law requires boards of directors to maximize shareholder wealth"?


----------



## tr573 (Oct 18, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



romanr74 said:


> tr573 said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



That's "one view" according to Wikipedia, while "others" feel that it is, but it's a nebulous and difficult to enforce concept, because one can explain away practically anything as being motivated by driving shareholder value.

Practically anything is an important distinction, since it was a reply to

"If Canon could credibly run a campain under the motto "We care about photography" rather than "We care about sales" they'd be back on track for the long run."

I highly doubt *"we DON'T care about sales"* falls under the "practically anything" that can be explained away as being motivated by increasing shareholder value. 

I would like to see what the outcome would be if the board of a publicly traded company said this during a shareholder meeting.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 18, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



tr573 said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > tr573 said:
> ...



We seem to be in agreement what it is and what it isn't...


----------



## neurorx (Nov 29, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

In all sincerity, would Canon do this so closely following the 5D IV release? I just received mine and its an ok upgrade mostly on features, but it isn't a WOW upgrade from the 5D III. Maybe I built up my hopes too much. I spent Thanksgiving comparing shots with different lenses and different lighting and the IV was slightly better but nothing that really was dramatic. I really was hoping to see a jump in resolution to be more apparent. I've held off on the 5Ds/R because of the perceived sensitivity to moving objects and lower light (wildlife or some landscapes). I often find myself in taking pictures in difficult to get places where I only cant readily use a tripod and I still need a low light 'sport-capable camera for the kiddo's shots." Reading all of the less than positive reviews for the 5D IV isnt helping me feel good about the purchase. Having the 7DII's speed isnt something I am after as I find in most gyms the fps across 3 seconds doesnt really matter as much.

Advice?-Do I just return my IV and keep the III with hopes there will be a hand hold-able camera landscape wildlife camera that will ?


----------



## Random Orbits (Nov 29, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



neurorx said:


> In all sincerity, would Canon do this so closely following the 5D IV release? I just received mine and its an ok upgrade mostly on features, but it isn't a WOW upgrade from the 5D III. Maybe I built up my hopes too much. I spent Thanksgiving comparing shots with different lenses and different lighting and the IV was slightly better but nothing that really was dramatic. I really was hoping to see a jump in resolution to be more apparent. I've held off on the 5Ds/R because of the perceived sensitivity to moving objects and lower light (wildlife or some landscapes). I often find myself in taking pictures in difficult to get places where I only cant readily use a tripod and I still need a low light 'sport-capable camera for the kiddo's shots." Reading all of the less than positive reviews for the 5D IV isnt helping me feel good about the purchase. Having the 7DII's speed isnt something I am after as I find in most gyms the fps across 3 seconds doesnt really matter as much.
> 
> Advice?-Do I just return my IV and keep the III with hopes there will be a hand hold-able camera landscape wildlife camera that will ?



If you are happy with the IQ of the 5DIII and don't see much difference with the 5DIV, then perhaps looking at the 5DS/R will be better for you. It will have the resolution bump you are looking for. The pixel size between the 5DS/R and the 7DII are similar, so they are equally good "hand-holdable". Personally, I don't find that it requires that much of a difference in technique between using the 5DIII and 7DII. If you downscale the 5DS/R images to 5DIII sizes, then the noise characteristics are comparable to better than the 5DIII. At the pixel level, the noise is higher but it should be the same/better at the image level.


----------



## Act444 (Nov 30, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



neurorx said:


> In all sincerity, would Canon do this so closely following the 5D IV release? I just received mine and its an ok upgrade mostly on features, but it isn't a WOW upgrade from the 5D III. Maybe I built up my hopes too much. I spent Thanksgiving comparing shots with different lenses and different lighting and the IV was slightly better but nothing that really was dramatic. I really was hoping to see a jump in resolution to be more apparent. I've held off on the 5Ds/R because of the perceived sensitivity to moving objects and lower light (wildlife or some landscapes). I often find myself in taking pictures in difficult to get places where I only cant readily use a tripod and I still need a low light 'sport-capable camera for the kiddo's shots." Reading all of the less than positive reviews for the 5D IV isnt helping me feel good about the purchase. Having the 7DII's speed isnt something I am after as I find in most gyms the fps across 3 seconds doesnt really matter as much.
> 
> Advice?-Do I just return my IV and keep the III with hopes there will be a hand hold-able camera landscape wildlife camera that will ?



Having used all 3 models of 5D mentioned above, I will say that the images that _wow_ me the most tend to come from the 5DS R. Paired with a well-resolving lens (in my case, the 100 2.8L Macro), there just isn't anything else like it in the Canon system, or like anything I've seen from any DSLR. The colors are vibrant out of camera and the detail is incredible when the shot is nailed. Good, sharp detail is surprisingly maintained all the way to ISO 6400, unlike the 5D3 and 5D4 that begin to smudge/smooth out well before that point. The trade-off, of course, is more noise, which may be fine for certain applications - and anyway, the noise seems to be a finer grain which makes it more tolerable (for me). The difference between 22 and 30 MP is noticeable, but the difference between 22 and 50 MP w/no AA effect is _dramatic_. 

The 5D4 is good in its own way too, mostly in AF consistency (improved noticeably from the 5D3) and increased editing latitude in boosting harsh shadows. High ISO is also improved, although I feel it comes at the cost of a softer image overall. I also find myself needing to boost color saturation more frequently with this camera than with both the 5D3 and 5DSR. It's better than the 5D3, but it's not "WOW" better. In fact, I think out of camera the images are actually softer out of the 4 than the 3 and often need more USM fine-tuning. OTOH, I rarely if ever need to sharpen 5DSR images...(if I need to, it's usually to compensate for induced blur or softness, but then downsizing is also very effective with that).

All that said, I use the 5DSR only as a specialist camera - the 5D3 and 5D4 remain my main rigs. The R excels in composed shots, but for general event and walkaround photography, I feel its drawbacks become more obvious - the slowness, high ISO limitations, the demanding nature of 50MP on your lenses and shooting techniques, etc. 

If you are looking for more detail than what you are getting out of your 5D4, then really, the only two options within the Canon system are either a 5DS/5DSR or wait for Mark V or 5DS successor (which could be a longer than expected wait, and one can't shoot with vaporware).


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Dec 3, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I'm guessing that within two more 5D generations, the 5D and 5DSR line will be unified back into a single camera again. I'm guessing that the standard 5D will have around 50+ mp by then and there will be little need for a 2nd 5D variant.


----------



## Jopa (Dec 5, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



GMCPhotographics said:


> I'm guessing that within two more 5D generations, the 5D and 5DSR line will be unified back into a single camera again. I'm guessing that the standard 5D will have around 50+ mp by then and there will be little need for a 2nd 5D variant.


Remember the 120Mpx APS-H prototype? When the 5dm5 becomes 50Mpx, the "S" will have 120+ most likely  Even today nothing prevents them to scale the 80D's 24Mpx 1.6x APS-C to FF so it'll be around 61Mpx.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Dec 5, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I spent last Tuesday at a Canon CPS Landscape event and brought along my 5DS and used a loaned 5D MKIV. in that specific usage with the camera predominantly on a tripod I would not trade my 5DS for the 5D MKIV. However shooting stars that evening the 5D MKIV was the better tool and much better in low light. I would imagine shooting moving subjects with a higher burst speed and an expanded AF the 5 D MKIV would win again. In a studio shooting models the 5DS would be the better tool as it would for table-top products. The fact is the range is split for a reason no one camera does it all they are all a compromise and Canon decision to expand the 5D range was a good one.


----------



## ahsanford (Dec 5, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



jeffa4444 said:


> The fact is the range is split for a reason no one camera does it all they are all a compromise and Canon decision to expand the 5D range was a good one.



The physics-defying D810 and A7R II sensors -- simultaneously great for detail, high ISO and DR -- would appear to disagree with your theory. Your points are well made, but it seems that some of those tradeoffs don't seem to apply to some sensors.

- A


----------



## privatebydesign (Dec 5, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > The fact is the range is split for a reason no one camera does it all they are all a compromise and Canon decision to expand the 5D range was a good one.
> ...



Were that true the D750 and D5 would also have the Sony sensor used in the Nikon and Sony.

I know several people who have embraced the 50MP, and many who would not buy a 50MP camera however good the sensor because they just don't have the need or desire to deal with 50MP.

That Nikon have a D750 and a D810 whereas Canon have a 5D MkIV and a 5DS/R is just marketing speak for different sensors best suited to different users.


----------



## ahsanford (Dec 5, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



privatebydesign said:


> Were that true the D750 and D5 would also have the Sony sensor used in the Nikon and Sony.
> 
> I know several people who have embraced the 50MP, and many who would not buy a 50MP camera however good the sensor because they just don't have the need or desire to deal with 50MP.
> 
> That Nikon have a D750 and a D810 whereas Canon have a 5D MkIV and a 5DS/R is just marketing speak for different sensors best suited to different users.



The D# line has always been Nikon home-brewed product, I thought.

And the D750 sensor _is_ from Sony, is it not?

But I think you are missing my point. Forget who makes it. For most mortal sensors, jacking up performance metric A can have an opposite effect on B. Like resolution vs. control of noise. We as Canon users have learned to recognize that if we chase a 50 MP sensor, we may need to downsample to get as good noise levels as a lower res FF sensor.

But some sensors, yes Sony in this case, seem to kill it with these higher (not highest) res sensors that still perform very well in low light and offer lovely base ISO DR. These sensors appear to 'defy physics' (said in jest).

I am not leaving Canon. I am not complaining. I am saying that some sensors tend to stand out for (seemingly) not being limited by the same rules as other sensors.

- A


----------



## privatebydesign (Dec 5, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Were that true the D750 and D5 would also have the Sony sensor used in the Nikon and Sony.
> ...



You miss my point. The trade offs apply, they apply in different amounts between Sony and Canon sensors, but that isn't the point.

I am not defending Canon or dissing SoNikon.


----------



## ahsanford (Dec 5, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



privatebydesign said:


> You miss my point. The trade offs apply, they apply in different amounts between Sony and Canon sensors, but that isn't the point.
> 
> I am not defending Canon or dissing SoNikon.



Totally get you now. Thanks.

- A


----------



## jeffa4444 (Dec 6, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > The fact is the range is split for a reason no one camera does it all they are all a compromise and Canon decision to expand the 5D range was a good one.
> ...


If you are right then why does Nikon produce the D750, why does Sony produce the A7S II? Because one size doesn't fit all.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Dec 6, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Leveraging economies of scale is the biggest reason to shift the 5DS/5DSr onto the 5D MKIV platform. A refined 50MP sensor i.e. better low light, and the expanded AF plus Wi-Fi in a slightly lighter package are all the refinement they would need to make as many of the features in the 5D MKIV appeared in the 5DS/5DSr such as the new mirror assembly, metering system, intervalomer etc.

The 5DS is a great camera if used for what it was intended for, its not a 5D MKIV and the two can coexist.


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Dec 6, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Jopa said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
> 
> 
> > I'm guessing that within two more 5D generations, the 5D and 5DSR line will be unified back into a single camera again. I'm guessing that the standard 5D will have around 50+ mp by then and there will be little need for a 2nd 5D variant.
> ...



Yes, I'm aware of that sensor resolution, but one has to ask if the extra MP actually do anything worth while? There has to be a tipping point in sensor resolution and a number of optimum quality.


----------



## ahsanford (Dec 6, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



GMCPhotographics said:


> Yes, I'm aware of that sensor resolution, but one has to ask if the extra MP actually do anything worth while? There has to be a tipping point in sensor resolution and a number of optimum quality.



Every detail obsessed, pixel-peeping landscaper just shrieked in horror at what you just posted.  They feel the same way about giving up any detail at all for fps reasons. If a 100 MP rig @ 1 fps was offered, they'd sell their car to get it on day one.

- A


----------



## Maiaibing (Dec 6, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> Every detail obsessed, pixel-peeping landscaper just shrieked in horror at what you just posted.  They feel the same way about giving up any detail at all for fps reasons. If a 100 MP rig @ 1 fps was offered, they'd sell their car to get it on day one.
> 
> - A


Problems, problems. Well to me it sounds like a great solution;
I'll get the 120 MPIX Canon day one for sure. I can keep a car if and as needed. And I'll have no need to pixel peep, as increased detail is visible for the observant viewer even at smaller sizes and less than 100%. Don't do landscapes BTW. Shooting speed is likely to be 5 fps - amply enough for most anything.


----------



## ahsanford (Dec 6, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Maiaibing said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Every detail obsessed, pixel-peeping landscaper just shrieked in horror at what you just posted.  They feel the same way about giving up any detail at all for fps reasons. If a 100 MP rig @ 1 fps was offered, they'd sell their car to get it on day one.
> ...



5 fps x 120 MP = 2x the throughput of a $6,000 1DX2. That's not happening anytime soon.

- A


----------



## rrcphoto (Dec 6, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Seems odd to argue the resolution when canon already pretty much stated it was coming, and have shown it the last year in a 5D sized body.

the question is .. can they fit it into a 5D sized body with 3 processors? 

or will they keep the 5Ds current AF system and upgrade to dual DiGiC 7 to handle the performance.


----------



## Maiaibing (Dec 6, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...


Probably not. Neither is the 120 MPIX 5DS/RII. But in 4-5-6 years its probably happening.


----------



## ahsanford (Dec 6, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



rrcphoto said:


> Seems odd to argue the resolution when canon already pretty much stated it was coming, and have shown it the last year in a 5D sized body.
> 
> the question is .. can they fit it into a 5D sized body with 3 processors?
> 
> or will they keep the 5Ds current AF system and upgrade to dual DiGiC 7 to handle the performance.



One more time, with feeling and pictures and a distant hope that we'll all be reasonable here. 

Not happening. Also note that all prior 'top throughput rigs' for each year are 1D rigs. I highly highly highly doubt a future 5DS2 (or whatever they call it) will get that spectacular a jump in throughput anytime in the next 3-5 years. It's one thing for a 5DS to arbitrarily get more throughput than a (later to market!) 5D4, but it's another entirely for a 5DS2 to push more data than a $6k flagship offering. Not happening anytime soon.

- A


----------



## LordofTackle (Dec 7, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> One more time, with feeling and pictures and a distant hope that we'll all be reasonable here.
> 
> Not happening. Also note that all prior 'top throughput rigs' for each year are 1D rigs. I highly highly highly doubt a future 5DS2 (or whatever they call it) will get that spectacular a jump in throughput anytime in the next 3-5 years. It's one thing for a 5DS to arbitrarily get more throughput than a (later to market!) 5D4, but it's another entirely for a 5DS2 to push more data than a $6k flagship offering. Not happening anytime soon.
> 
> - A



I don't see why they would exclude each other. They serve completely different purposes. It's not only the faster processing powert that makes the 1DxII so much more expensive, it's also the tougher build, the better mechanics for mirror and shutter, etc etc.

I see a completely different problem with a 5fps 120mpx 5DS II: it's already pretty difficult to makes use of the high resolution of the 5Ds if you are not really careful with your technique (or use a tripod anyway). I guess 5fps with 120mpx would potentiate these problems massively and thus make the the 5fps completely unusable....

just my 2c 
Sebastian


----------



## ahsanford (Dec 7, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



LordofTackle said:


> I see a completely different problem with a 5fps 120mpx 5DS II: it's already pretty difficult to makes use of the high resolution of the 5Ds if you are not really careful with your technique (or use a tripod anyway). I guess 5fps with 120mpx would potentiate these problems massively and thus make the the 5fps completely unusable....
> 
> just my 2c
> Sebastian



The idea that handholding a camera at very high resolution camera eventually is not handholdable is not entirely true. You just need some combination of a bright scene or a high ISO to get the shutter speed fast enough to overcome the risk of movement effecting your shot, right? 

But your point is (directionally) correct. Mo pixels, mo problems. If the 5DS changed the rules on 1/focal length minimum shutter speeds, a 120 MP would change it even further. 

- A


----------



## LordofTackle (Dec 7, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> The idea that handholding a camera at very high resolution camera eventually is not handholdable is not entirely true. You just need some combination of a bright scene or a high ISO to get the shutter speed fast enough to overcome the risk of movement effecting your shot, right?



Right, I just remember several forum members saying that they need to be extra careful and that 1/focal length doesn't do it at all. So I guess you can run into problems pretty fast if you don't take extra care.

if you shoot 5fps at 120mpx those problems will get even worse I guess (not only your movements you have to control, but also all the movement in the camera). OTOH, if you fire of several shots, you might get a sharp one 

(I can already hear AvTvM cry for the mirrorless FF to get rid of the moving parts )

Sebastian


----------



## Mikehit (Dec 7, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



LordofTackle said:


> Right, I just remember several forum members saying that they need to be extra careful and that 1/focal length doesn't do it at all. So I guess you can run into problems pretty fast if you don't take extra care.
> 
> if you shoot 5fps at 120mpx those problems will get even worse I guess (not only your movements you have to control, but also all the movement in the camera). OTOH, if you fire of several shots, you might get a sharp one
> 
> ...



No, you don't run into problems
If the camera shake is _just_ low enough that it is not noticeable on a 30MP camera at a given viewing size/distance, then using a 120MP camera will not make the shake noticable. What will happen is that the 120MP has no more resolution than the 30MP because it is effectively downgraded by the camera shake.
But if you control the camera shake the 120MP will show more detail.


----------



## tron (Dec 7, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



LordofTackle said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > The idea that handholding a camera at very high resolution camera eventually is not handholdable is not entirely true. You just need some combination of a bright scene or a high ISO to get the shutter speed fast enough to overcome the risk of movement effecting your shot, right?
> ...


I do not care at all for mirrorless. But to tell the truth a global shutter would help in very high resolution. It was mentioned that in that case we need tripods. High speed shooting does not help because above flash sync speed (1/200, 1/250) it is being simulated by the moving blades. With small pixels (or smaller microlenses if you will) movement would show easier even with high speed.


----------



## tron (Dec 7, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

As far as what I wish to see on a 5DsR MkII:

1. Almost (if not) the same number of pixels with improvements in high iso and DR. 
2. A higher fps say 7 fps with increased buffer.
3. The AF system of 5DMkIV

That's all


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## ahsanford (Dec 7, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



tron said:


> I do not care at all for mirrorless. But to tell the truth a global shutter would help in very high resolution. It was mentioned that in that case we need tripods. High speed shooting does not help because above flash sync speed (1/200, 1/250) it is being simulated by the moving blades. With small pixels (or smaller microlenses if you will) movement would show easier even with high speed.



Oh sure, if you're shooting with flash you are SOL with these super high res rigs: too slow and you get motion ruining the detail and too fast you have to use HSS.

...our you have to tripod up for portraiture. Ouch. 

- A


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## privatebydesign (Dec 7, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > I do not care at all for mirrorless. But to tell the truth a global shutter would help in very high resolution. It was mentioned that in that case we need tripods. High speed shooting does not help because above flash sync speed (1/200, 1/250) it is being simulated by the moving blades. With small pixels (or smaller microlenses if you will) movement would show easier even with high speed.
> ...



Good gracious, what a complete load of garbage!


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## tron (Dec 8, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> ...
> ...our you have to tripod up for portraiture. Ouch.
> 
> - A


And use tripod for landscapes too. No real problem with that. Or they could hopefully not increase the megapixels more than what they are now in 5DsR. I believe they are more than enough both for landscapes and birding... 


privatebydesign said:


> Good gracious, what a complete load of garbage!


Care to explain?

EDIT: @both: Also read my post that is last in the previous page. Not caring for an increase in mpix so probably all these do not apply that much...


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## Fleetie (Dec 8, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



tron said:


> I do not care at all for mirrorless. But to tell the truth a global shutter would help in very high resolution. It was mentioned that in that case we need tripods. High speed shooting does not help because above flash sync speed (1/200, 1/250) it is being simulated by the moving blades. With small pixels (or smaller microlenses if you will) movement would show easier even with high speed.


Was it you who claimed, only the other day, that high shutter-speeds "don't help because they are only 'simulated' by the moving blades", and were told that this is rubbish? Someone tried to use this argument here, only a few days ago. 

If fast shutter speeds were only "simulated", then how is it that as you make shutter speed faster, keeping everything else the same, the exposure decreases linearly, and the photo gets less exposed?

Ok. You're talking about camera-shake causing pixel-level blurring. YES, it's true that at fast shutter-speeds, one side of the photo is still "taken" say, 1/250s "later" than the other side, so the whole photo "spans" 1/250s, even if you have a faster shutter speed selected.

BUT still, each cluster of neighbouring pixels is still only illuminated - and therefore capable of suffering shake-induced blurring - for the much shorter time of the exposure.

HOWEVER, you are right that an effect could manifest itself at fast shutter-speeds: Imagine you're taking a fast photo of, say, a building with long, straight walls, and the building fills most of the frame. As you're taking the photo, your hands are shaking because:

a) You've got a hangover and you need more booze and you've got the shakes
b) It's cold
c) A bird flies over and poos on your head and you recoil in disgust
d) Someone shoves you

Now the camera moves significantly during the exposure, and IS is absent or cannot compensate.

The photo will show those straight lines of the building as wavy, rather than straight. But those lines, despite being wavy, will not be blurred; they'll still be sharp, because at the pixel level, exposure time was still, say, 1/2000s or whatever.

The effect is more like a kind of still-photo-rolling-shutter.


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## privatebydesign (Dec 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



tron said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Care to explain? Sure, but use my actual quotes.



privatebydesign said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > tron said:
> ...



First off, tripods for portraiture.

One of the greatest living portrait shooters is Gregory Heisler, he always uses a tripod. One of the greatest living head shot photographers is Peter Hurley, he always uses a tripod. One of the most well know commercial photographers specializing in sports people and athletes is Joel Grimes, he always uses a tripod. Funnily enough they all use the 5DS/R too, but they used tripods before that. 

However there are just as many high resolution camera shooters not using tripods, the image sharpness depends entirely on your stability and your exposure.

Now onto the flash/shutter sync erroneous thinking.

When you make a flash exposure, especially in a studio/controlled environment, the flash makes 100% of the exposure, the sync speed is irrelevant because the ambient does not contribute to the exposure. Ergo the flash duration is the effective length of exposure, not the shutter speed. Flash durations, even with modest flashes like PCB Einsteins, can be as low as 1/13,500 sec. There is no "motion ruining the detail" going on, if your effective exposure duration is from 1/1000 to 1/13,000 of a second you can handhold a 100MP Hasselblad and get perfect pin sharp pixel level detail.

To illustrate the fact here is a test shot prior to a shoot with a lacrosse player. The ball is tack sharp with a shutter speed of 1/160 sec. Oh, and the entire series of sessions have been done on a tripod. The second image is a 100% crop of the ball from the preceding image. The third is a flash miss/no fire from the previous session with the same camera settings.


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## ahsanford (Dec 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

PBD -- excellent post, thanks. Everything you said was spot on and I continue to learn from your experience. Appreciated!

_Now_ please consider someone who isn't you and lacks your sense of studio portraiture methodology, your commitment to detail, etc.

Like a wedding photographer with a 5DS who has to work a hurry. Using speedlites only. Who may will not crack out a tripod all day. Who may want some ambient light in the shot. Surely _they_ would be in a bit of a pickle juggling higher shutter speeds for that high MP rig vs. their sync speed, right?

I am a rank amateur in this arena, I am not trying to pick an argument so much as understand. Please set me straight! 

- A


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## privatebydesign (Dec 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> PBD -- excellent post, thanks. Everything you said was spot on and I continue to learn from your experience. Appreciated!
> 
> _Now_ please consider someone who isn't you and lacks your sense of studio portraiture methodology, your commitment to detail, etc.
> 
> ...



The results for that wedding photographer would never be worse with the higher MP camera, but when he took the time to shoot the formals the results would be much more detailed.

Here are three wedding images of mine, though I don't shoot weddings very often!

The first one a high MP camera wouldn't help, but it would be no worse. I dragged the shutter with bounced camera mounted flash to get an ambient/flash exposure. 1/20 sec at f2.8 with the 24-70.

The second I again dragged the shutter to prevent the church ambient going too dark but the bulk of the exposure is two remote 600EX-RT's mounted on stands with umbrellas. The camera was mounted on a tripod and had I used a high MP camera I would have got the benefits of the increased resolution.

The third is handheld and is a candid moment using the same lights I had set up for the formals. Even though this is handheld the subject exposure is effectively the flash duration so again if I had used a higher MP camera I would have got the benefits of that.

Now my personal question is and has been, would those benefits allow me a greater revenue stream? The answer so far has been no, I don't need a higher MP camera at this point because the sizes of prints I sell can be made with the 21MP I have. 

First image, bride putting on mothers makeup with brother/son in attendance. Bounced flash off wall/ceiling behind me, dragged shutter to balance ambient light, 1/20 sec f2.8, 24-70 f2.8.

Second image formal tripod mounted twin 600EX-RT's in umbrellas to both sides. Again dragged shutter to lighten background but subjects illuminated by short duration flash. 1/25 sec f9, 30mm, 24-70 f2.8.

Third image, handheld candid but utilizing the formal setup lights 1/25 sec f9 70mm, 24-70 f2.8.


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## Alex_M (Dec 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

PBD's explanation makes perfect sense. I wanted to add some personal experience with flash / ambient ratios vs hand-hold-ability / image sharpness.
If I am shooting in deemly lit room, I try to set my exposure approximately 2 stops under ambient and add the flash as a key light. resulting flash to ambient ratio would be around 4:1 - if my calculations are correct. so.. 80% - key light (flash) and 20% ambient.
At the given ratio My flash would be set to fire at 1/4 - 1/1 power depending on the distance from flash to my subject.
yn600ex-RT flash duration at full power is around 1/300 sec. at 1/2 power - 1/600 sec, at 1/4 - 1/1200 sec and so on and so forth...
therefore at the given light ratios ambient light does not affect hand hold ability much - if at all..
shooting outdoors, ratios would be reversed and typically set at around 70% ambient / 30% flash or there abouts. Anything higher that 30-35% of flash starts looking unnatural to my eye. But thats my personal opinion only.



> Good gracious, what a complete load of garbage!



love it. Brings back some memories from late 70's that's how we were told at school in the older days!  straight to the point, no macking around. ouch.. LOL


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## ahsanford (Dec 12, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



privatebydesign said:


> The results for that wedding photographer would never be worse with the higher MP camera, but when he took the time to shoot the formals the results would be much more detailed.
> 
> [truncated]



Thoughtful insights as always, PBD. Appreciated. 

- A


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## Shooter (Dec 23, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Jopa said:


> If they allowed pre-orders now, I would do it in the blink of an eye. The original 5dsr is such a great camera, and the improvements I see in the 1dx2 would make it even better, closer to perfection.



I'm right there with you Jopa. I sold my two D810's after a couple week demo from Canon on the 5DS & SR, and bought two SR's. Shortly after that I upgraded my 1DX's to the series II model , thinking I'd shoot the SR's for architecture and the XII's for my faster aviation work. Turns out, because I love the file size and the cameras are so capable, I shoot 90% of my stuff with the 5DSR's. Having 144MB files to tweak will get one spoiled in a hurry.


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## Click (Dec 23, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Great shot, Shooter. 8)


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## Maiaibing (Dec 23, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Shooter said:


> Turns out, because I love the file size and the cameras are so capable, I shoot 90% of my stuff with the 5DSR's.



I also see the 5DS/R & 1DXII as a winning combo, with the 5DIV being a (very capable) compromise for those that need either more MPIX than the 1DXII or more fps than the 5DS/R.

For now I use the 5DS/R for pretty much everything and will rent/borrow to have more fps at hand when needed.
(Great shot BTW)


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## Jopa (Dec 26, 2016)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Shooter said:


> Jopa said:
> 
> 
> > If they allowed pre-orders now, I would do it in the blink of an eye. The original 5dsr is such a great camera, and the improvements I see in the 1dx2 would make it even better, closer to perfection.
> ...



Very impressive shot! Wondering where you have to be to take this one?


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## AshtonNekolah (Mar 2, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Canon Rumors said:


> <p>We’ve been told a couple of times that the EOS 5DS and EOS 5DS R would be updated quicker than other recent Canon full frame DSLRs, which have seen product cycles of 4 years or more. According to an internal Canon product roadmap, there’s a possibility of an EOS 5DS/R/ Mark II coming before the close of 2017 and that there will only be one body to replaces both the 5DS and 5DS R.</p>
> <p>According to the viewed roadmap slide, the EOS 5DS/R/ replacement will get a new sensor, though resolution wasn’t mentioned. We can also assume it will have nearly the same ergonomics and features as the EOS 5D Mark IV.</p>
> <p><em>More to come…</em></p>
> <span id="pty_trigger"></span>



Will like to see if this is legit, sounds good to me.


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## LonelyBoy (Mar 3, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> The idea that handholding a camera at very high resolution camera eventually is not handholdable is not entirely true. You just need some combination of a bright scene or a high ISO to get the shutter speed fast enough to overcome the risk of movement effecting your shot, right?
> 
> But your point is (directionally) correct. Mo pixels, mo problems. If the 5DS changed the rules on 1/focal length minimum shutter speeds, a 120 MP would change it even further.
> 
> - A



But at some point, won't those "detail-obsessed landscapers who would sell their car for a 120mpx/1fps body" run into issues even with a tripod and MLU? The sun isn't getting any brighter, so SS/ISO are limited, and at some point they'll run into the issues that an entire landscape is not going to be perfectly still all at once with wind, wildlife running around the trees and grass, etc. If they print or publish at a resolution that doesn't show the blur (whether at the resolution of a 30D or 5DSR) they don't gain anything from 120mpx, right? And if 120mpx doesn't show the light breeze or squirrel-shaken branch, then 200mpx will, or some number.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't see why not.

(Coffee may not have fully kicked in though.)


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## tron (Mar 3, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I wonder if 5DsRII will have 24 * 1.6^2 = 24 * 2.56 ~ 61.4 Mpixels.

I wish - but do not hope - they left the mpixels to the current 50 so as to benefit even more (noisewise) from the sensor technology improvement.


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## rrcphoto (Mar 3, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



tron said:


> I wonder if 5DsRII will have 24 * 1.6^2 = 24 * 2.56 ~ 61.4 Mpixels.
> 
> I wish - but do not hope - they left the mpixels to the current 50 so as to benefit even more (noisewise) from the sensor technology improvement.



120MP. they already stated it really.


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## Shooter (Mar 6, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Jopa said:


> Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > Jopa said:
> ...



Dear JOPA, 

I apologize for the delay in my response to your question. I do a great deal of "air to air" photography assignments. My photo platforms vary, depending upon the subject aircraft, speed of the subject, budget and several other considerations. The image you asked about was taken from a Beechcraft A36 with the double side passenger doors removed. The A36 is a wonderfully capable photo platform and can fly at about 160 knots in the open configuration. Some of my subject aircraft are falling out of the sky at that speed so we go with aircraft like the WWII North American B25 Bomber which can fly at slightly faster speeds for limited duration, or military fighter jets where speed and performance is virtually unlimited.


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## Shooter (Mar 6, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Just spent several days with The US Navy Blue Angels during their pre season practice sessions. Everything I shot was captured with the 5DSR's, and they performed beautifully ............


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## Jopa (Mar 7, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Shooter said:


> Jopa said:
> 
> 
> > Shooter said:
> ...



Kudos to you sir. For a regular person like me it sounds very complicated, but very cool and breathtaking  The result is amazing.


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## entoman (Mar 7, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



unfocused said:


> I would expect:
> New sensor improvements reflecting the latest generation;
> Some increase (70-80 mp);
> No anti-aliasing filter;
> ...



I don't see the 7DMkiii having 28MP. Remember it will have to shoot at least 10fps, probably 12 or 14fps to compete as a sports camera. That needs a huge buffer and masses of expensive processor power. More likely the 7DMkii will have 24MP, which when upscaled to FF would be 60MP, and that is more than enough for anyone.

I also suspect that the 5DSMkii will be a single model. It will probably not have AA filter, but ideally it would have a cancellable AA filter for situations where moire is common (fashion, wedding, bird feathers etc).


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## jeffa4444 (Mar 8, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

Don't be surprised if the Canon 5DS/ 5DSr MKII doesn't have a bump in MP but does have a bump in DR added to the revision in the 5D MKIV that it didn't get over the 5D MKIII. 

Processing large files from the 5DS in raw really requires a good PC I upgraded to the new MacBook Pro fully maxed out with processor & memory as my previous MacBook Pro and my iMac in particular struggled in both Lightroom CC and Photoshop CC. 

Unless photography gets more efficient compression codec then were storing trouble for ourselves.


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## Maiaibing (Mar 9, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



jeffa4444 said:


> Don't be surprised if the Canon 5DS/ 5DSr MKII doesn't have a bump in MP but does have a bump in DR added to the revision in the 5D MKIV that it didn't get over the 5D MKIII.



DR of 5DS/R is closer to 5DIV than 5DIII?


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## Cthulhu (Mar 12, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Maiaibing said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > Don't be surprised if the Canon 5DS/ 5DSr MKII doesn't have a bump in MP but does have a bump in DR added to the revision in the 5D MKIV that it didn't get over the 5D MKIII.
> ...



5dsr has more dr than the 5dmk3, so I wouldn't be surprised if it had more than the 5dmk4


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## ahsanford (Mar 12, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Cthulhu said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > jeffa4444 said:
> ...



DR values from DXO (someone please link me another site for this, I'm tired of referencing these knuckleheads):

70D (not on chip) = 11.6
7D2 (not on chip) = 11.8
80D (on chip) = 13.2

5D3 (not on chip) = 11.7
6D (not on chip) = 12.1
5DS (not on chip) = 12.4
5D4 (on chip) = 13.6

1DX (not on chip) = 11.8
1DX2 (on chip) = 13.5

So, yes, Canon will learn small ways to grind out more performance over time (see the 5D3 --> 6d --> 5DS improvements, all not on-chip), but the big bump came from moving to on-chip.

- A


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## Maiaibing (Mar 17, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> Cthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...


This is a better measure of how large a DR the camera sensor can actually span: http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

5DIII: 8.9
>= 0.32
6D: 9.22
> 0.57
5DSR: 9.79
>= 0.6
5DIV: 10.39

The jump from 6D to 5DSR to 5DIV is almost exactly the same. Meanwhile the 5DSR will begin to perform (slightly) better than the 5DIV >iso200. So on-chip may give something, but it does not seem that decisive for DR, more a way to control noise patterns.


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## Cthulhu (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



ahsanford said:


> PBD -- excellent post, thanks. Everything you said was spot on and I continue to learn from your experience. Appreciated!
> 
> _Now_ please consider someone who isn't you and lacks your sense of studio portraiture methodology, your commitment to detail, etc.
> 
> ...



Please remember that 1/fl is just a recommendation, not a law. I ignore all of this stuff with the 5dsr, and all of my cameras, and do just fine by focusing on keeping a steady hand.

Also remember that if 50mp is too much for your hand-holding concerns, film shooting will never be an option to you as it far exceeds those specs.

Just rent one or borrow one and try it out, you'll likely find it's not a big of a deal as the internet makes it to be.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 20, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Cthulhu said:


> Also remember that if 50mp is too much for your hand-holding concerns, film shooting will never be an option to you as it far exceeds those specs.



Oh no it doesn't. Film, by area, can't match any metric from a modern digital sensor.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=27421.msg542751#msg542751


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## Sporgon (Mar 20, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



privatebydesign said:


> Cthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > Also remember that if 50mp is too much for your hand-holding concerns, film shooting will never be an option to you as it far exceeds those specs.
> ...



I think he must be referring to hand-holding a 10-8 Private


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## Roo (Mar 21, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Shooter said:


> Jopa said:
> 
> 
> > Shooter said:
> ...



That is a spectacular shot of Skip Stewart and Prometheus! He always puts on a great show


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## Cthulhu (Mar 26, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



privatebydesign said:


> Cthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > Also remember that if 50mp is too much for your hand-holding concerns, film shooting will never be an option to you as it far exceeds those specs.
> ...



Except for color and detail...I've read your "proof", which is comically your own posts in another thread, and I'm sorry you spent time comparing film scans (I doubt you own a serious scanner) to digital, and I'm sorry your film prints are not up to par - specially since you're a Canon shooter.
I don't shoot film, because I choose convenience, but it has definite advantages. Resolution, color and detailsare some of them, contrast and DR are not.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 26, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Cthulhu said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Cthulhu said:
> ...



The reason I linked to my own lengthy post was because it is authoritative and includes many manufacturer links and detailed examples, pointedly, unlike your opinion comments. Also the same rediculous comments come along on a regular basis and it saves me time and effort retyping it all.

So can you provide one iota of 'evidence' film garners more detail? And I don't know what you mean by "color", but some link or example backing up that assertion would be appreciated.

Oh and I didn't rely on film scans, I have many 24 x 36 wet prints, Cibachromes from 50ASA film, that prove beyond doubt the output from my own personal 21mp camera and 24" printer vastly outresolve them.


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## Cthulhu (Mar 26, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



privatebydesign said:


> Cthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



Again I'm sorry you think opinions that don't match yours are ridiculous, or that you don't understand how differently digital vs film color gathering occurs. I shouldn't even reply, because all in all you just seem rude and more interested in beating your chest saying you're "right, as opposed to having a conversation, but since you like links here is one:

https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2014/12/36-megapixels-vs-6x7-velvia/

It compares higher resolution cameras than the one you use, but if you scroll down enough you'll find a brief color comparison of film vs a 21mp Canon Dslr.


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## Sporgon (Mar 26, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Cthulhu said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Cthulhu said:
> ...



;D I thought Tim's example might show up ! The problem with that comparison is that the film used was 5x4, (125 x 100) and the digital was 36x24, so the original magnification recorded on the film was much, much greater ! 

I am attaching a scan of 6x7 film, drum scanned by Tim himself in fact, of On Landscape fame, at 5000 dpi. The file is 168 MP. For this comparison I have reduced the original to 5616 across, so the same as a 5DII, and shown a 100% crop of this. The 5DII would blow this out of the water technically. In fact to be quite honest I think the original 13 MP 5D would be pretty close ! 

The bayer array effect just doesn't have as much impact on colour definition as you might think now we are over the 6 MP mark. I thought that I might see an improvement with the 5Ds, but from what I have seen to date - no.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 27, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Sporgon said:


> ;D I thought Tim's example might show up ! The problem with that comparison is that the film used was 5x4, (125 x 100) and the digital was 36x24, so the original magnification recorded on the film was much, much greater !



And it is yet another perfect illustration of disingenuous posting by people who really do know better.

Anybody that actually prints from film and digital stopped arguing about this years ago, on a technical level modern digital sensors best film performance in every metric possible (apart from possibly very long exposures). That doesn't mean there aren't good reasons to use film, there are, however citing non existent technical superiority is not one of them.


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## Cthulhu (Mar 27, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Sporgon said:


> Cthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



I was ready to take you seriously until you came with a 1500w 3mb file of a supposedly 168MP photo, with no comparison digital shot, but even though I'm advocate digital shooting over film I'd never be as foolish as to say the original 5d get close to medium format... 
As a matter of fact the 5Dsr was the first Dslr to seriously compete with medium format, in a much much easier to shoot body - which brings me back to my original point that Privatebydesign has been contending for no good reason - if you can't do it with a 5Dsr then forget trying to do it with film.


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## Sporgon (Mar 27, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Cthulhu said:


> I was ready to take you seriously until you came with a 1500w 3mb file of a supposedly 168MP photo, with no comparison digital shot, but even though I'm advocate digital shooting over film I'd never be as foolish as to say the original 5d get close to medium format...
> As a matter of fact the 5Dsr was the first Dslr to seriously compete with medium format, in a much much easier to shoot body - which brings me back to my original point that Privatebydesign has been contending for no good reason - if you can't do it with a 5Dsr then forget trying to do it with film.



Seriously ? The 1500px width was to give the 100% crop context. If you find out how to attach a 14,168 x 11,882 - 963 meg file then let me know! For your amusement here is a 100% crop of the full size. The output size of this at 240 dpi full image is 60 " across. I agree that at that size of output it would be better than the 5D, put at an enlargement of say A3 at 240 dpi, so a decent sized print for most, I believe the 5D would be just as good. The second 100% crop is of the file reduced to 4638 px width to give you an idea. 

One thing the 100% crop shows is that film was never intended to be viewed "at 100%"


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## romanr74 (Mar 27, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



Sporgon said:


> Cthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > I was ready to take you seriously until you came with a 1500w 3mb file of a supposedly 168MP photo, with no comparison digital shot, but even though I'm advocate digital shooting over film I'd never be as foolish as to say the original 5d get close to medium format...
> ...



Isn't all of that quite vague...?
Do you believe digital is intended to be viewed "at 100%"?


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## Sporgon (Apr 2, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



romanr74 said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > Cthulhu said:
> ...



Well film _is _vague when compared with digital isn't it, that's the point really. Film and digital have a totally different structure. You could argue that viewing film at "100%" is just directly viewing the negative or transparency. As you enlarge from there is is blurring continually, theoretically. To say that film captures "more detail" is completely wrong, at least area for area. It takes a much larger format size of film to overcome digital. It is true to say film has "more colour", but only when viewing a good transparency on a light box. As soon as you go to any other viewing medium that slight, theoretical advantage is lost, and how many of us want to view our work as a small transparency on a light box ? 

This makes the comparisons of film format sizes to digital sensor size rather dubious too. Because of the "vagueness" of film grain compared with pixels significant increases in area were required to give significant improvements in definition. This isn't the same case with digital. You ask if digital is "intended to be viewed at 100% ?", well the structure of the medium means that it can in a way that film couldn't. Certainly judging by the gear that many aspire to here on CR they need to view it at 100% !

A camera like the 5Ds blitzes film medium format in every way, in fact you'd have to go to 5x4 to get even close. To me this makes the 5Ds a really specialist tool, I'd only need to use it as when I had the need for a large format film camera. The other thing of course is the QE of modern digital cameras. A 5Ds may have considerably less area than say 6x7 film, but at about 60% QE it is probably recording more light than the inefficient film, which had the "QE" equivalent of between 10 and 15%. 

Same thing goes for crop digital camera too. As the technology becomes more and more efficient their performance is going to make FF look very expensive. Maybe Nikon were ahead of their time in 2003 when they said there was no need to produce a 35mm sized digital 

I wish film did offer something better to those that are prepared to go through the relatively difficult process of producing a picture because then I could use it and have an edge in this sea of technically brilliant digital images. I have tried, and I can believe that what I have produced has more appeal. The trouble is though I can achieve the exact same thing digitally, which makes me less inclined to pursue it.


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## HarryFilm (Apr 3, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*

I think I might have some ability to 
respond to some of the discussions 
regarding just how good digital is now
compared to film even when shooting 
120 medium format plates (56mm x 41.5mm)
at 6x4.5 1.35:1 aspect ratio to
6x24 at ultrawide 4:1 aspect ratios.

The largest drum scanner I've been to find
was a 9600 dpi line scanner used for scanning 
Imax film to 8000+ dots per inch at various aspect ratios.
So comparing something like 6x4.5 to digital would require 
AT LEAST an 8K+ drum scanner (a few are around!)

Quality-wise, the colour saturation was UNMATCHED compared
to almost all digital sensors for film vs. 35mm/full frame. 
The problem is FILM GRAIN which people mistake for NOISE 
which needs some heavy post processing to remove. 
Since film grains are variable in size and orientation 
versus digital pixels, this "grain" is too similar to noise 
for many people who have grown up with all-digital cameras.
So quality wise, is it a letdown for the digerati vs for people 
like me who happen to LIKE the "grain" and Saturation of film vs digital.

I still shoot AND process lots of Black and White 
(and a tiny amount of colour film!) and I LIKE the 
really high contrast and grainy look of film which is 
just too hard to duplicate well in all-digital formats.

In terms of QUALITY, the BEST CMOS SENSOR I HAVE EVER SEEN
was a 50 microns per pixel 4k sensor from Teledyne-DALSA 
which was put on the size of a whole north american 
8.5 inch by 11 inch sheet of paper which had the 
BEST light gathering and noise reduction I have
EVER seen in ANY digital format, film format
and high end astro-photography camera.

YES! It was quite nearly $750,000 US for the sensor
but its sample images were BEYOND anything I have 
ever seen colour saturation-wise or noise levels-wise.
It was so sensitive Deep Night turned into DAYTIME!
And it was MUCH MUCH BETTER QUALITY than the Canon 
4 million ISO camera that was intro'ed last year!

For BEST all-round digital imaging for less-bright scenes
that have less noise but still well-saturated colours, 
the Sony A7s2 is still hard to beat!

For best daytime colours, the Phase-One's 
are darn near PERFECT! But of course the
price for such a camera is outrageous! 

For us mere mortals, I would suggest the 
best all-rounder cameras at a "Reasonable"
price are now the Canon 5D Mk4 and the
Fuji 50 megapixel MF camera. Noise at 
1600 to 3200 ISO is tiny and the general image
quality just makes too much sense over ANY older 
or even NEWER Medium Format film cameras!


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## Sharlin (Apr 3, 2017)

*Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]*



HarryFilm said:


> ...



With the forced newlines this reads like free-verse poetry


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