# Interview: Canon addresses overheating concerns, workarounds and the Cripple Hammer



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 11, 2020)

> Johnnie Behiri from CineD.com had the chance to interview Katsuyuki Nagai-san, Product Management Director of Image Communication Business at Canon Europe and flat out asked about the marketing and perception that both the EOS R5 and EOS R6 aren’t true hybrid cameras.
> Johnnie also touches on hacks as a workaround for the overheating and cooldown times, as well as the notion Canon purposely crippled these cameras to protect the Cinema EOS line.
> *A snippet from the interview:*
> *Johnnie – CineD: *To some people, it seemed as if Canon was trying to protect their professional EOS camera line by restricting recording times. That might have caused some trust issues between potential customers and the company. Is there anything you would like to highlight in order to reassure people that whatever was done, was...



Continue reading...


----------



## analoggrotto (Sep 11, 2020)

where's Andrew Reid of the vaunted EOSHD?


----------



## Baron_Karza (Sep 11, 2020)

Since there is being testing done by different people with different results...is there a settings file, log file or something similar that these cameras generate so that people can compare and use to share in order to understand why they are getting more or less the same results?


----------



## David - Sydney (Sep 11, 2020)

I, similar to Roger's comment in his blog, am pretty much over the whole overheating discussion.
I get that people want to extend recording times for 8K/30 and 4k/120. I suggest that waiting for Canon's firmware release with lower bitrates (probably compression/Cinema raw light) and externally recording wth no cards will increase record times for those desperately needing it. If that isn't good enough then there will be hardware hacks with drilling holes and peltier coolers etc for a specific use case - otherwise get another 8k video camera that does the job they want.
The main thing for me is short clips for 8k raw (30 fps frame grabs) or maybe some 4k/120 short clips but HD/120 would be enough without triggering overheating. It works to specifications and I am happy to live within them. Just waiting for H265 hardware acceleration to be available before upgrading my PC


----------



## Dragon (Sep 11, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> he shoved his head up his ass to check the thermometer's temperature reading and got stuck


Yep, Roger's latest temp tests show that the camera really does get hot and also that it cools slowly. Canon may be a bit conservative re the "low temperature burns" issue, but suggesting that the camera is intentionally crippled is just BS. An aluminum vs. magnesium frame would be a bit heavier and would allow the camera to cool more quickly, but would also heat the exterior more quickly and potentially lower the record time if external temperature is the primary concern and from this interview it seems that is the case.


----------



## Aregal (Sep 11, 2020)

I didn’t get the R5 to run tests. I got it to use for work and it’s been nothing but perfect. Having used it on various gigs, it’s never overheated or given me a temperature warning. If thermal issues would have been and issue, I simply would have returned it an look towards a different solution. The “worst” I’ve seen is my 4K120 clock drop to 5min.


----------



## amorse (Sep 11, 2020)

analoggrotto said:


> where's Andrew Reid of the vaunted EOSHD?


It looks like he may have commented on the article directly


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Sep 11, 2020)

amorse said:


> It looks like he may have commented on the article directly


Yeah, I have been saving all his "wisdom" for when that first guy reports he cooked his Camera so he can sort out who to blame. It sure as shit is not Canon's fault that people want to override the protections and end up cooking their camera.


----------



## highdesertmesa (Sep 11, 2020)

Canon could add an, “I attest I am wearing thermally-insulated gloves” firmware option that would increase the temperature the external body is allowed to reach. I guess you could still burn your nose, though


----------



## 1D4 (Sep 11, 2020)

amorse said:


> It looks like he may have commented on the article directly


That guy is such a joke. He seriously thinks that because he can use workarounds to extend the recording limits, that he's uncovering some huge conspiracy that Canon is crippling their cameras. I'll play the world's smallest violin when he bricks his R5 and Canon refuses to repair it.


----------



## Chaz320 (Sep 11, 2020)

Let’s be honest.

1. the idea of a hybrid camera, in the R5/R6 is pretty good.

2.Canon dropped the ball on what it can do. The marketing was wrong and misleading

3. We do look at other manufacturers and we do feel like canon could make something a little more inline with what content creators want
E.g. longer record time, really great 1080 and 4K without having to be limited in anyways, A GOOD AUDIO SOLUTION and a decent dynamic range.

I do feel that the camera(s) that the have released are great and check many of the boxes we wanted but those cameras did Mia the mark slightly. The glass and auto focus are great. The ability to navigate through the menus are great but those aspects alone won’t make us not look at Sony. I love canon but Sony is listening. Like why no 1080p 120 or 240 frames. That’s easy to do through firmware.

I wish canon would stop “anticipating” what we want and actually listen to what we want

4.These are great cameras. Great hybrid cameras and we are happy Canon made them.

5. we are still waiting for ourCanon holy grail camera for creators. One that looks good and doesn’t have many “artificial” limitations.
A camera we can be proud to endorse to other creators and friends without having to give a disclaimer before recommending the camera.


----------



## David - Sydney (Sep 11, 2020)

Chaz320 said:


> Let’s be honest.
> 2.Canon dropped the ball on what it can do. The marketing was wrong and misleading
> 3. We do look at other manufacturers and we do feel like canon could make something a little more inline with what content creators want
> E.g. longer record time, really great 1080 and 4K without having to be limited in anyways, A GOOD AUDIO SOLUTION and a decent dynamic range.
> ...


Honest? I'll bite
#2. The R5 performs to specifications. The marketing wasn't wrong. It was accurate but the 6 month hype blew expectations out the window. No other hybrid camera can do 20 minutes of 8K raw. Future firmware with reduced bit rates may allow external recording with no cards and perhaps some additional record time. How much is enough for you is your expectation.
#3. If you want unlimited video and audio then buy a video camera. R5 has unlimited 4K but not unlimited HQ4K. There has been no complaints about DR and CLOG is available
HD/120 is coming in the next firmware release. HD/240 is not easy and requires readout speeds which the R5's sensor probably can't do. Get a camera with a smaller sensor that can do it if you need it.
#5. There is no "holy grail"... that's the definition of "holy grail". Work within the limitations of what is available.
I don't need to recommend any camera to anyone. My R5 works for me and maybe doesn't work for you. I am proud of my work with it and that is all I need.
Artificial limitations are only limited by your expectations of what you think it should be. The only artificial limitation I can see is the 29:59 limit but that doesn't exist with external recording.
Roger Cicala's teardown/thermal imaging provides some unbiased information and you can make of it what you like but I appreciate the time he put into it for everyone.

Shamelessly copying another contributor's brilliant summary of the R5 marketing announcements...
Internet: Canon could never put 8K full frame in to a mirrorless camera. They don't have the technical capabilities to do that. The last time they innovated was when 5d mkii was born.
Canon: Our next 5 series will have 8K and demonstrate what we are capable of.
Internet: (spits coffee on screen) Yeah right. Maybe 8K timelapse mode
Canon: No, 8K video
Internet: Er no, 8K like 15 second movie burst mode then, because you know overheating would happen in such a small body. Do Canon engineers not know anything about physics? That's why refrigerators exist....
Canon: No full 8K video
Internet: Yeah right.... hahaha. It's not possible. So no AF or IBIS then. You won't be able to use the full technologies of the camera/
Canon: No. 8K Full frame, AF and IBIS enabled.
Internet: It's not possible, because you know.... overheating is a thing with technology in such a small package. If it was possible then Sony would have done it.
Canon: Hold our beer.....

Post launch
Internet: I demand a full unconditional apology from Canon. I demand immediately that they give us unlimited 8K full frame video for $4.99 and stop hiding behind this "overheating" scenario to protect their other cameras. I’ve never felt so personally insulted by a camera company as I have by Canon. To me honest behaviour is very important. I recognize that the only person that is perfect is me and people make mistakes. The important thing is to admit that and not to sell us totally unusable technology like this…


----------



## Chaz320 (Sep 11, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> Honest? I'll bite
> #2. The R5 performs to specifications. The marketing wasn't wrong. It was accurate but the 6 month hype blew expectations out the window. No other hybrid camera can do 20 minutes of 8K raw. Future firmware with reduced bit rates may allow external recording with no cards and perhaps some additional record time. How much is enough for you is your expectation.
> #3. If you want unlimited video and audio then buy a video camera. R5 has unlimited 4K but not unlimited HQ4K. There has been no complaints about DR and CLOG is available
> HD/120 is coming in the next firmware release. HD/240 is not easy and requires readout speeds which the R5's sensor probably can't do. Get a camera with a smaller sensor that can do it if you need it.
> ...





BeenThere said:


> Not again.




ok you guys missed the fact that I praised these two cameras but had a few small griefs with the camera. I love canon and will always love canon. All of my cameras have been canon but that doesn’t negate the fact that canon could have made this a more useable video camera at the price point of ~$4K.The focus should have been put on the HQ 4K and the camera being stable in many conditions as most of their cameras have been,


----------



## David - Sydney (Sep 11, 2020)

Chaz320 said:


> ok you guys missed the fact that I praised these two cameras but had a few small griefs with the camera. I love canon and will always love canon. All of my cameras have been canon but that doesn’t negate the fact that canon could have made this a more useable video camera at the price point of ~$4K.The focus should have been put on the HQ 4K and the camera being stable in many conditions as most of their cameras have been,


Didn't miss the praise but your criticisms aren't well thought through and I pointed them out. Canon (hopefully) makes money by addressing a market segment and then delivering products (eventually  ) that meet the majority of requirements. There will be a lot of demand for this camera even without the improvements already in firmware 1.1 and the next one. It just keeps getting better. There really isn't a better all round camera body at the moment and it is bleeding edge performance.... that said, the Canon community has been waiting for a competitive body for some years now. If the R5 doesn't have something that is really specific eg HD/240 and that is key to your workflow then Canon can't help you with a hybrid. No one is complaining about the 5.5k raw video limits in the 1DXiii.

It's not about loving Canon. I am used to a Canon system and it would be painful to change. Even moving to RF has been painful enough for me with just 1 RF lens (so far). There is nothing that I need that my system that another system would make it worthwhile to move. I am amazed how many people state that they are changing systems. Underwater housings are really expensive so I am in for the long haul with the R5!

The future second hand market for R5 will be a concern due to potential overheated circuitry. Even the Canon Australia 5 year warranty won't cover that.

The R5 will push Sony/Nikon etc to have better options and perhaps address the R5's limitations... or perhaps they won't push the performance limits to avoid poor publicity about thermal limits. Or maybe the youtubers will change their mind like they did from "the R6's 20mp is not competitive" to "you can take great shots with 12mp in the A7Siii - it isn't all about mp"


----------



## Joules (Sep 11, 2020)

Chaz320 said:


> but that doesn’t negate the fact that canon could have made this a more useable video camera at the price point of ~$4K.The focus should have been put on the HQ 4K and the camera being stable in many conditions as most of their cameras have been,


But that is not a fact. A fact is that the R5 can record FF 4K 30p with IBIS and excellent AF as much as your card capacity allows so long as you restart the recording in 30 minute intervals. And it is a fact that on top of this, which already exceeds the capabilities of all previous Canon stills/hybrid cameras at or below this price), there is a video mode in 4K HQ that allows you to get greater quality than competitors currently offer at or below this price. It is also true that this mode comes limitations, especially when you record internally.

But you seem to ignore that in order to improve upon these limitations while still keeping the same price point, something else would have had to be less developed. The IBIS, AF, sensor and stills speed are all literally best in class. The weather sealing seems to be up there as well. For high res video, there's plenty of options that no longer require a massive crop. These are the aspects that are most interesting to the majority of the market. Making compromises on the design or cost of these aspects in order to manage heat better, which only limits a subset of the video modes in the first place, is not such a logical thing as you make it out to be.

Please don't see this post as rejecting your criticism. It isn't. The R5 has aspects worth criticizing. A good Form of criticism is constructive criticism. But that is only good, if the suggestion on how to improve the critized aspect is a valid and well thought out advice. Much of what you can read on this subject does not fall into this category.

The issue is not saying that the R5 has limitations that cause it to be ill suited for certain applications (your personal work flow, for example). The issue is saying that as a fact it could have been something better. Maybe you know your stuff and can elaborate. But you also have to understand that there have been a lot of armchair engineers that made the forum at large weary.


----------



## PerKr (Sep 11, 2020)

Chaz320 said:


> I wish canon would stop “anticipating” what we want and actually listen to what we want



they actually HAVE to anticipate what customers want because it's just not possible to give them what people say they want on internet forums. Not at the price level the R5 is at (if we just forget about the crazy pricing here that is). They made a camera that easily outperforms the competition only to have the internet compare its 8K capabilities to the 4K capabilities of a similarly priced low-resolution video-specialized body from a competitor. Had Canon done it the other way, giving us a body with less-than-8K video and resolution to match that while outperforming the video-oriented MILCs, the very same people would instead be comparing it to a high-resolution body with video specs that are close enough for most (so 4K30) and complaining about the low resolution.
Or they could have made it better and let the body size as well as the price go up significantly and everyone would be complaining about that.

Just listening to customers does not really work. Of course they keep tabs on what people say they want on various forums but they also need to anticipate the things that people don't say they want because they simply don't know they want it yet. If they hadn't anticipated it, we still would have no 8K. We wouldn't have the impressive lenses. People said they wanted small cameras, that this was the reason for mirrorless. They then did not buy those small cameras in enough numbers to keep those systems alive because that was not really what they wanted and needed in the end, they just hadn't figured that out yet.


----------



## koenkooi (Sep 11, 2020)

PerKr said:


> they actually HAVE to anticipate what customers want because it's just not possible to give them what people say they want on internet forums.[..]



I know it's a made up quote and Henry Ford never actually said it, but: _“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”_


----------



## Pierre Lagarde (Sep 11, 2020)

Chaz320 said:


> ...
> 
> I wish canon would stop “anticipating” what *we* want and actually listen to what *we* want


I don't know who is your "we", but I'm sure it's not me...
I wish you (and some others) stop presuming what others want as if they were the only voice to listen to...


----------



## Occams_Cat (Sep 11, 2020)

I wish he'd asked why the 29'59" record limit is still in place!


----------



## Paul6 (Sep 11, 2020)

I placed my cold CFast, card into my reader and copied 48gb of RAW files onto my PC via USB3, the card was hot to touch when I removed it.

This is just reading from the card so I would expect even more heat when writing.


----------



## sobrien (Sep 11, 2020)

I was surprised that the main (not only) focus seems to be on user protection from low temperature burns. To the extent that that is limiting the recording lengths then there should really be a way of disabling that at the user’s discretion, e.g. for tripod use where that is not a consideration.


----------



## docsmith (Sep 11, 2020)

Good interview. I very much appreciated some of the insight provided in the answers. One answer I thought was particularly telling in that Canon has thought through this:

"This is where we come to the first of the two governing factors that affect the cameras when it comes to overheating. Holding a very warm object for an extended period has the potential to result in what is known as low temperature burns. Secondary is to protect the internal components of the camera from the overheating. We limit how hot the external body of the camera can get to protect users, which is one of the causes of overheat shutdown. Some heat management must also be applied to ensure the camera continues to operate."


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 11, 2020)

Chaz320 said:


> Let’s be honest.
> 
> 1. the idea of a hybrid camera, in the R5/R6 is pretty good.
> 
> ...



You are trying to preach to a fanboy crowd who lack even common sense. Don't waste your time responding to all these clowns. Like you I also like Canon and that's the only reason people like us wish Canon will give us the best camera in the market. The moment one criticizes Canon here, this crowd calls them Sony fanboy, paid by Sony, etc. The fanboy crowd is everywhere, I have come across lot of people who become fanboys of one or the other corporate and lose their common sense. If you go to NR, SAR, etc they have their fair share of fanboys. Another cult is the Apple fanboy crowd, man try saying anything which you don't like about apple products (actually don't try ).

You are 100% Canon did dropped the ball once again and marketing was misleading but the majority here in CR can never ever understand that. Nobody cried for 8k camera, we have been asking Canon for a high quality 4k camera, I mean the 4k HQ type video quality and 4k60p. But Canon was more interested in creating a marketing hype with 8k and disappointed us on the 4k video. Even simple things like getting rid of the 29:59 time limit when there is no tax advantage anymore seems like an easy fix but not for Canon and fanboys will backup Canon no matter what.


----------



## Joules (Sep 11, 2020)

goldenhusky said:


> You are 100% Canon did dropped the ball once again and marketing was misleading but the majority here in CR can never ever understand that. Nobody cried for 8k camera, we have been asking Canon for a high quality 4k camera, I mean the 4k HQ type video quality and 4k60p. But Canon was more interested in creating a marketing hype with 8k and disappointed us on the 4k video.


You are disappointed by the 4K video. So, you had expectations that weren't met. What did you base those expactions on? Which marketing material mislead you into expecting the 4K performance you did?


----------



## Go Wild (Sep 11, 2020)

I am working with the EOS R5 now since the 30th July. The camera is just amazing! For stills I am chocked with the performance of the sensor, it delivers such pleasant and detailed photos! For me it´s the best camera camera in the market!

For video, I must confess that the first use was a chock! I got overheating pretty soon in a hot day when I was shooting stills first and then video. The main problem is not the record times it´s that the camera is always loosing record time when in use, even if you are not recording. But I record in Atomos externally so the only big deal was in 4k120fps. After the firmware upgrade i am getting much better results and after that I didn´t had overheating anymore. Also the days are now colder in my country so tht may help either.... Last week I was filming vultures in a project and I was using 4k60fps recorded in atomos and 4k120fps internally in card. I filled the card and continued recording in atomos. I also made some photos. No overheating. So I guess camera did improve and if you use the atomos you will probably don´t have issues at all.

So far....I am in love with this camera!!!

If you want to check the vídeo, recorded with 4k100fps and 4k50fps in C-log, neutral, with just a bit grading. I used Canon Lut for the 4k100fps but for some reason the lut doesn´t work good with prores files that came from the atomos so I had to match them by hand. The image quality in video of this camera is outstanding!!!


----------



## Rocksthaman (Sep 11, 2020)

goldenhusky said:


> You are trying to preach to a fanboy crowd who lack even common sense. Don't waste your time responding to all these clowns. Like you I also like Canon and that's the only reason people like us wish Canon will give us the best camera in the market. The moment one criticizes Canon here, this crowd calls them Sony fanboy, paid by Sony, etc. The fanboy crowd is everywhere, I have come across lot of people who become fanboys of one or the other corporate and lose their common sense. If you go to NR, SAR, etc they have their fair share of fanboys. Another cult is the Apple fanboy crowd, man try saying anything which you don't like about apple products (actually don't try ).
> 
> You are 100% Canon did dropped the ball once again and marketing was misleading but the majority here in CR can never ever understand that. Nobody cried for 8k camera, we have been asking Canon for a high quality 4k camera, I mean the 4k HQ type video quality and 4k60p. But Canon was more interested in creating a marketing hype with 8k and disappointed us on the 4k video. Even simple things like getting rid of the 29:59 time limit when there is no tax advantage anymore seems like an easy fix but not for Canon and fanboys will backup Canon no matter what.


I literally couldn’t care less about 8k.

Record times
Clog 2/3
4K24 and 4k60 without overheating.
120 with sound 
10 bit in standard profiles 

Good camera though.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 11, 2020)

Chaz320 said:


> Let’s be honest.
> 
> 3. We do look at other manufacturers and we do feel like canon could make something a little more inline with what content creators want


Let’s be honest.

I do look at other manufacturers and I do feel like Canon R5 is the only FF camera on the market I want.

YMMV, of course.


----------



## Del Paso (Sep 11, 2020)

Occams_Cat said:


> I wish he'd asked why the 29'59" record limit is still in place!


If I'm not mistaken, it's due to another "intelligent" EU law, saying that whatever records longer than 29,59 must be declared a movie or video camera.
But please, please, don't ask me why...maybe a different taxation?


----------



## Kit. (Sep 11, 2020)

goldenhusky said:


> You are trying to preach to a fanboy crowd who lack even common sense. Don't waste your time responding to all these clowns. Like you I also like Canon and that's the only reason people like us wish Canon will give us the best camera in the market. The moment one criticizes Canon here, this crowd calls them Sony fanboy, paid by Sony, etc.


I criticize Canon here for quite a long time for marketing this camera as a "video" camera, but no one calls me Sony fanboy.

What am I doing wrong?


----------



## Kit. (Sep 11, 2020)

Del Paso said:


> If I'm not mistaken, it's due to another "intelligent" EU law, saying that whatever records longer than 29,59 must be declared a movie or video camera.
> But please, please, don't ask me why...maybe a different taxation?


Used to be. But last time I checked, the extra import duty on "video camera recorders" was just 1.6% of the declared value, and it was expected to be fully eliminated by now.


----------



## bbasiaga (Sep 11, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> I know it's a made up quote and Henry Ford never actually said it, but: _“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”_


I think in this case, to give 'us what we really want' Canon would have had to re-write the laws of physics! Or at least waited a few years for semiconductor technology to get even more heat efficient. High processing power application (8K/4K HQ, etc) in a ILC camera sized body with the industry leading weather sealing....something had to give. Its just sad people can't step back from the internet rhetoric and see this situation for what it really is. 

As far as the low temp burns thing...i wonder if Canon's lawyers really latched on to that, or if its just a corporate spin - "we're protecting you!" - on the problem of internal overheating. I think it does explain why folks in the cooler climates are seeing longer record times though. The skin will cooler faster in open/moving air than the internals will, which means that the camera will think you're OK to hold on longer. I know it has an external temp sensor, which I assumed was to do a heat transfer calculation to determine heat up time to the high/stop temp limit. But maybe it really is there to protect you hands....

-Brian


----------



## mindfest (Sep 11, 2020)

1D4 said:


> That guy is such a joke. He seriously thinks that because he can use workarounds to extend the recording limits, that he's uncovering some huge conspiracy that Canon is crippling their cameras. I'll play the world's smallest violin when he bricks his R5 and Canon refuses to repair it.



Okay, maybe i am a bit bold here but i can count to three and still don´t understand why it is possible to deactivate thermal protection through setting a different date, and not through cooling?
Any Ideas on that?


----------



## 12Broncos (Sep 11, 2020)

Is Nikon listening? As they prepare for the launch of the Z8/9 because I'm listening to the comments on here, and I like what I'm hearing. I want a camera, sure video would be nice on it, but not at the expense of being able to fry an egg on it after fifteen minutes. Kudos to Canon in being ambitious, but they should've given the camera a little more size. I'd rather have a bigger camera and it be a beast, than a nice, compact frying pan.


----------



## peters (Sep 11, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> I, similar to Roger's comment in his blog, am pretty much over the whole overheating discussion.
> I get that people want to extend recording times for 8K/30 and 4k/120. I suggest that waiting for Canon's firmware release with lower bitrates (probably compression/Cinema raw light) and externally recording wth no cards will increase record times for those desperately needing it. If that isn't good enough then there will be hardware hacks with drilling holes and peltier coolers etc for a specific use case - otherwise get another 8k video camera that does the job they want.
> The main thing for me is short clips for 8k raw (30 fps frame grabs) or maybe some 4k/120 short clips but HD/120 would be enough without triggering overheating. It works to specifications and I am happy to live within them. Just waiting for H265 hardware acceleration to be available before upgrading my PC


For me, the biggest problem was that 4k60 "overheats" very fast - even when you are not recording. Just while setting up the camera or carrying it around the timer counts quickly down to zero before you even record. Thats the problem: its not important to record 4khq for an hour straight. But you cant even set the camera up and THAN record.
BUT: I found that recording externaly to an Atomos works perfectly fine even for hours of 4k60 on a long day  This is an excellent solution for me. So I am more than happy. Especialy since the photos are excellent. It can even autofocus on stars (!) with an f2,8 lense. That AF is certainly very impressive and an excelent tool in the field


----------



## peters (Sep 11, 2020)

Chaz320 said:


> I wish canon would stop “anticipating” what we want and actually listen to what we want


I think they actualy do. I do not belive that the forum or even youtubers opinions are what realy shapes the professional workflow.

If you ask an actual profesional wedding photographer he wont tell you, that "this camera cant be used because the dynamic range is incredible low". They will talk about lenses, ergonomics, skintones, reliability and ease of use. 

If you ask a film production company they wont tell you, that mirrorless small bodies are there first choice for filmproduction. They will stick to their Cinema-cameras because of the ergonomics, dynamic range, ports, accessories.

If you ask an actual professional sports photographer he wont tell you that 20 megapixel on his new sports camera is not enough. He will be happy with quick transfer rates and a reliable camera with an big viewfinder and fast AF.

If you ask a product- and general-photographer he will tell you that 45 megapixel is a great sweet spot betweeen noise an resolution.



I think the (often hateful and toxic) postings in forums are very often from people who are FAR away from actualy buying these kind of cameras. People get their opinions from youtube influencers who mostly dont even have the camera(!). Mostly these are paid commercials and they try to find a big topic. Most of these people dont actualy work and shoot every day with this camera. 


I have the R5 since release and I used it (professionaly) nearly every single day since than for photo and video work. 
I can tell you, its an excellent camera. Most things are perfect. What I diskile: 
- Micro HDMI sucks. 
- I miss a mode dial on the left shoulder, that power switch is a waste of space. 
- Overheat before recording is a bit anoying, but can be fixed with an atomos. 
- Viewfinder could be bigger. 
- Micro HDMI sucks. 
- Some functions disable other functions - if this happens you cant quickly overwrite the problematic function but you have to dive back to the menu and find the function and THAN go back - for example if you use silent shutter you cant activate anti-flicker. You have to first go back to the shutter and change it to mechanical and than go back to activate anti-flicker. 
- USB-C Charging is not working while camera is on and wont work on most power outlets (weird, looks like it needs a very specific voltage?)
- Micro HDMI sucks
These are things that are not discussed in most discussions or youtube "reviews"(commercials). These are things that actualy matter in the everyday work. 
Other than that its a pretty much perfect camera. Colors, AF, ergonomics are excelent and a joy to use.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 11, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> I am working with the EOS R5 now since the 30th July. The camera is just amazing! For stills I am chocked with the performance of the sensor, it delivers such pleasant and detailed photos! For me it´s the best camera camera in the market!
> 
> For video, I must confess that the first use was a chock! I got overheating pretty soon in a hot day when I was shooting stills first and then video. The main problem is not the record times it´s that the camera is always loosing record time when in use, even if you are not recording. But I record in Atomos externally so the only big deal was in 4k120fps. After the firmware upgrade i am getting much better results and after that I didn´t had overheating anymore. Also the days are now colder in my country so tht may help either.... Last week I was filming vultures in a project and I was using 4k60fps recorded in atomos and 4k120fps internally in card. I filled the card and continued recording in atomos. I also made some photos. No overheating. So I guess camera did improve and if you use the atomos you will probably don´t have issues at all.
> 
> ...


Nice video. Where was it shot?


----------



## Go Wild (Sep 11, 2020)

peters said:


> I think they actualy do. I do not belive that the forum or even youtubers opinions are what realy shapes the professional workflow.
> 
> If you ask an actual profesional wedding photographer he wont tell you, that "this camera cant be used because the dynamic range is incredible low". They will talk about lenses, ergonomics, skintones, reliability and ease of use.
> 
> ...



Totally agree with you. Micro HDMI sucks very VERY much! Its so fragile, it can break so easily i am always afraid. Also because of the signal of course. About viewfinder....for me no big deal I use Atomos all the time...but yeah...However is understandable. The only downside of the camera is the overheating issue and now is much better! 

Camera is huge! Image quality in stills and video....I am loving it!


----------



## Go Wild (Sep 11, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Nice video. Where was it shot?


Thanks! North of Portugal last week. This are the frames I didn´t use for the work. I made this short to Youtube


----------



## unfocused (Sep 11, 2020)

peters said:


> ...If you ask an actual professional sports photographer he wont tell you that 20 megapixel on his new sports camera is not enough. He will be happy with quick transfer rates and a reliable camera with an big viewfinder and fast AF...


Not all sports photographers. I would have liked to have had about 30 mp to give me more margin for cropping. But, life is full of compromises.


----------



## Jim Corbett (Sep 11, 2020)

The idea of a hybrid camera is _*stupid*_ in the first place. It's like sitting on two chairs. Merging a Ferrari and Rolls Royce may sound great and cheaper in theory, but in real life it's going to fail and cost way more. The R5 is the proof: best photo camera currently on the market, and a terrible video one. 
*And now, instead of paying one price to get double, we have to pay double to get one. Let it be a lesson to everyone: cheap is expensive; expensive is cheap!*


----------



## peters (Sep 11, 2020)

Occams_Cat said:


> I wish he'd asked why the 29'59" record limit is still in place!


Because its a custom regulation in europe and other countries. "video" cameras get an extra Tax which is substantial. Most photographers dont want to pay 20% for a camera, just for a feature that 98% of people never miss. Thats why nearly all dslr/dslm cameras are limited to 29:59
He would have made a fool of himself if he actualy ask such a basic question to a canon exec.


----------



## peters (Sep 11, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> Totally agree with you. Micro HDMI sucks very VERY much! Its so fragile, it can break so easily i am always afraid. Also because of the signal of course. About viewfinder....for me no big deal I use Atomos all the time...but yeah...However is understandable. The only downside of the camera is the overheating issue and now is much better!
> 
> Camera is huge! Image quality in stills and video....I am loving it!


Ha jeah. I even tend to not use the R5 for some studio work, just because I want to protect that sill micro-hdmi port xD its like having a car with a super delicate steering wheel that you dont want to touch because it may break and cost 40% of the car xD 

Jeah, the viewfinder from the S1H is beeeautiful. Its realy a joy to use. The R5 viewfinder is very small compared to that. I understand that it makes the camera less bulky - but in my opinion it would be a problem if it was half an inch bigger. 

Jeah, I am also happy. The images are just beautiful, even without any editing


----------



## amorse (Sep 11, 2020)

peters said:


> Because its a custom regulation in europe and other countries. "video" cameras get an extra Tax which is substantial. Most photographers dont want to pay 20% for a camera, just for a feature that 98% of people never miss. Thats why nearly all dslr/dslm cameras are limited to 29:59
> He would have made a fool of himself if he actualy ask such a basic question to a canon exec.


I think he's leaning into the suggestion that the EU rule was removed in 2019 and therefore there should be no 30 min limitation now, according to a few sites. I've seen the suggestion that the rule was removed, but I haven't actually taken a look at import tariffs in the EU yet to see if it actually happened, or checked to see if other major importers outside the EU don't have an equivalent rule.


----------



## peters (Sep 11, 2020)

Jim Corbett said:


> The idea of a hybrid camera is _*stupid*_ in the first place. It's like sitting on two chairs. Merging a Ferrari and Rolls Royce may sound great and cheaper in theory, but in real life it's going to fail and cost way more. The R5 is the proof: best photo camera currently on the market, and a terrible video one.
> *And now, instead of paying one price to get double, we have to pay double to get one. Let it be a lesson to everyone: cheap is expensive; expensive is cheap!*


Hm depends. The thing is, you need backup. I do commercial photoshoots and wedding photoshoots but also product videos and some commercial films. 
So I would need 2-3 camera bodies AND 2-3 video cameras. (given that I need 2 cameras on weddings + backup or 2 cameras for an interview or event documentation + backup).

3x 5D IV and 3x C200 would be a pretty big cost factor. Now I can to the same work with just 3x R5 bodies, which work excellent in both areas. If you use an Atomos Ninja V its a very reliable video tool with excelent image quality and AF with recording limits.


----------



## peters (Sep 11, 2020)

amorse said:


> I think he's leaning into the suggestion that the EU rule was removed in 2019 and therefore there should be no 30 min limitation now, according to a few sites. I've seen the suggestion that the rule was removed, but I haven't actually taken a look at import tariffs in the EU yet to see if it actually happened, or checked to see if other major importers outside the EU don't have an equivalent rule.


What? realy? never heard of that. In that case I apologize.


----------



## koenkooi (Sep 11, 2020)

peters said:


> [..]
> - USB-C Charging is not working while camera is on and wont work on most power outlets (weird, looks like it needs a very specific voltage?)
> [..]



It should work on anything that supports Power Delivery, so look for 'USB-PD' markings on the charger. There are a few reports out there that PD can partially power the R5 and R6 while running, but it will still use a bit of the battery.
My R5 still haven't shipped, so I haven't verified that myself.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 11, 2020)

Jim Corbett said:


> The idea of a hybrid camera is _*stupid*_ in the first place. It's like sitting on two chairs. Merging a Ferrari and Rolls Royce may sound great and cheaper in theory, but in real life it's going to fail and cost way more. The R5 is the proof: best photo camera currently on the market, and a terrible video one.
> *And now, instead of paying one price to get double, we have to pay double to get one. Let it be a lesson to everyone: cheap is expensive; expensive is cheap!*


Depends on your needs.

Someone might want to own both a Malibu and a Suburban, while I'm fine with just one Forester.


----------



## nchoh (Sep 11, 2020)

Chaz320 said:


> ....
> 
> I wish canon would stop “anticipating” what [*I*] want and actually listen to what [*I]* want



If the US did not anticipate, the F-22 and F-35 would not have been made. If Sony did not anticipate, the Walkman would never have been made. If Canon did not anticipate, the 5D would not have been made.

And I fixed it for you


----------



## Tom W (Sep 11, 2020)

This camera is state of the art - it does as much as can be done given the size limitations, weather sealing, and the state of progress in chip/sensor design.

Next generation electronics will be more efficient, will be able to perform with less heat, will operate more energy-efficiently, but this is the best that can be done given the price/size/technology constraints as they now exist.

Roger's temperature testing show that they've pretty much allowed the body to get about as warm as they legitimately can.


----------



## nchoh (Sep 11, 2020)

mindfest said:


> Okay, maybe i am a bit bold here but i can count to three and still don´t understand why it is possible to deactivate thermal protection through setting a different date, and not through cooling?
> Any Ideas on that?



I'll give it a shot. My guess is...

Canon can and probably does know how much heat the CPU generates for each specific operation (stills shooting, 8K video recording) by testing the electronics without the body in a lab. With this knowledge, their programmers probably felt that that using the operation and time was a better way of determining shut down than continually reading the temperature(s).


----------



## degos (Sep 11, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> I know it's a made up quote and Henry Ford never actually said it, but: _“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”_



And yet Canon just gave us faster horses... which run so fast they overheat themselves.


----------



## Eclipsed (Sep 11, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Yep, Roger's latest temp tests show that the camera really does get hot and also that it cools slowly. Canon may be a bit conservative re the "low temperature burns" issue, but suggesting that the camera is intentionally crippled is just BS. An aluminum vs. magnesium frame would be a bit heavier and would allow the camera to cool more quickly, but would also heat the exterior more quickly and potentially lower the record time if external temperature is the primary concern and from this interview it seems that is the case.



One approach would be to enhance the grip panels to insulate more to protect skin, and let the other areas (top and bottom plate) be exposed metal for better heat shedding.

I'd bet its the right thumb on the back that is the most likely burn victim. Easy to solve with a more insulating grip material.


----------



## adigoks (Sep 11, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> I am working with the EOS R5 now since the 30th July. The camera is just amazing! For stills I am chocked with the performance of the sensor, it delivers such pleasant and detailed photos! For me it´s the best camera camera in the market!
> 
> For video, I must confess that the first use was a chock! I got overheating pretty soon in a hot day when I was shooting stills first and then video. The main problem is not the record times it´s that the camera is always loosing record time when in use, even if you are not recording. But I record in Atomos externally so the only big deal was in 4k120fps. After the firmware upgrade i am getting much better results and after that I didn´t had overheating anymore. Also the days are now colder in my country so tht may help either.... Last week I was filming vultures in a project and I was using 4k60fps recorded in atomos and 4k120fps internally in card. I filled the card and continued recording in atomos. I also made some photos. No overheating. So I guess camera did improve and if you use the atomos you will probably don´t have issues at all.
> 
> ...



IIRC you need to turn on 'legalize' in atomos ninja to get exact same output as internal recording footage


----------



## Eclipsed (Sep 11, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> The future second hand market for R5 will be a concern due to potential overheated circuitry. Even the Canon Australia 5 year warranty won't cover that.




That seems unlikely. More likely either failed or operational. And >95% likely aren't shooting 8k to overheat on a regular basis. I have yet to shoot a single frame of video.


----------



## Eclipsed (Sep 11, 2020)

peters said:


> - Some functions disable other functions - if this happens you cant quickly overwrite the problematic function but you have to dive back to the menu and find the function and THAN go back - for example if you use silent shutter you cant activate anti-flicker. You have to first go back to the shutter and change it to mechanical and than go back to activate anti-flicker.



Good point. Be nice to have the image correction (or flicker reduction, or whatever) selectable as "when possible" so it automatically reverts to the preferred setting when the conflicting selection is changed back. Until then, this is what C1,2,3 are for.


----------



## Chaz320 (Sep 11, 2020)

nchoh said:


> If the US did not anticipate, the F-22 and F-35 would not have been made. If Sony did not anticipate, the Walkman would never have been made. If Canon did not anticipate, the 5D would not have been made.
> 
> And I fixed it for you


Hey you actually have a point. I guess I was a little frustrated that’s all


----------



## tcphoto (Sep 11, 2020)

Let me get this straight, Canon introduces the R5 and R6 that offer 8K video capture but it overheats and shuts down so it can cool back down. The recent firmware does very little to remedy the situation and Canon continues to take heat over it. Some users are having success extending the record times by recording to an external drive. As a freelancer, I own two of the same bodies for continuity and serves as a backup. How difficult is it to swap an identical body out in the event that one overheats? If you’re going to capture at 8K, there are certain risks for shooting at technologies razor edge, yes?


----------



## Dragon (Sep 11, 2020)

sobrien said:


> I was surprised that the main (not only) focus seems to be on user protection from low temperature burns. To the extent that that is limiting the recording lengths then there should really be a way of disabling that at the user’s discretion, e.g. for tripod use where that is not a consideration.


Nope. If you allow it to be disabled, then you will still get sued by an idiot with a tender pinkie who says you didn't make the issue clear enough for him.


----------



## SecureGSM (Sep 11, 2020)

Jim Corbett said:


> The idea of a hybrid camera is _*stupid*_ in the first place. It's like sitting on two chairs. Merging a Ferrari and Rolls Royce may sound great and cheaper in theory, but in real life it's going to fail and cost way more. The R5 is the proof: best photo camera currently on the market, and a terrible video one.
> *And now, instead of paying one price to get double, we have to pay double to get one. Let it be a lesson to everyone: cheap is expensive; expensive is cheap!*


Probably more like merging sedan and truck may sound great and cheaper... and it is: introducing a pickup truck, a ute. a pro / prosumer vehicle, jack of all trades. Literary So.. A Work hard - play hard concept. Take to work, take off-road, take to beaches and bush. That’s your Canon 5 series concept. it can do some limited heavy lifting, as your ute. You can tow a trailer. Sure. But not a massive load.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Sep 11, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Nope. If you allow it to be disabled, then you will still get sued by an idiot with a *tender pinkie *who says you didn't make the issue clear enough for him.


When I read that the first time I read "Tender Pickle" not idea why


----------



## SecureGSM (Sep 11, 2020)

tcphoto said:


> Let me get this straight, Canon introduces the R5 and R6 that offer 8K video capture but it overheats and shuts down so it can cool back down. The recent firmware does very little to remedy the situation and Canon continues to take heat over it. Some users are having success extending the record times by recording to an external drive. As a freelancer, I own two of the same bodies for continuity and serves as a backup. How difficult is it to swap an identical body out in the event that one overheats? If you’re going to capture at 8K, there are certain risks for shooting at technologies razor edge, yes?


Let me get this straight, Canon introduces the R5 and R6 that offer a *time limited* 8K video capture. if you are a freelancer that regularly shoots 8K (I would love to understand what camera shoots 8K and is in the R5 Price range at the same time) for an extended period of time, then R5 is not for you.
*some* users (as you put it) are having success extending the record times by recording to an external drive.
your statement is factually incorrect: *ALL* users that are recording to an external drive are having success extending the record times.


----------



## SaP34US (Sep 11, 2020)

amorse said:


> I think he's leaning into the suggestion that the EU rule was removed in 2019 and therefore there should be no 30 min limitation now, according to a few site8s. I've seen the suggestion that the rule was removed, but I haven't actually taken a look at import tariffs in the EU yet to see if it actually happened, or checked to see if other major importers outside the EU don't have an equivalent rule.9


When would Canon have started working on r&d and deciding weather or not have the time limit?


----------



## SecureGSM (Sep 11, 2020)

SaP34US said:


> When would Canon have started working on r&d and deciding weather or not have the time limit?


Are you suggesting that 29:59 recoding time limit is hard coded or something?  /s
its is certainly just a timer that could be removed via a firmware update.


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 11, 2020)

tcphoto said:


> Let me get this straight, Canon introduces the R5 and R6 that offer 8K video capture *but it overheats and shuts down* so it can cool back down. The recent firmware does very little to remedy the situation and Canon continues to take heat over it. Some users are having success extending the record times by recording to an external drive. As a freelancer, I own two of the same bodies for continuity and serves as a backup. How difficult is it to swap an identical body out in the event that one overheats? If you’re going to capture at 8K, there are certain risks for shooting at technologies razor edge, yes?


No, it gets to max operating temperature and stops you using the highest quality video modes. AFAIK I have seen zero reliable reports of the camera ever "shutting down" it still works like a regular stills camera and still records video in all the regular modes just not the few highest data rate modes.

It might seem like a small difference, but tell that to a photojournalist or wedding shooter who just overheated his Sony, his camera is a brick, the R5 user next to him can still record video and photos. To me that is worth way more than anything else.

As for people needing backups in mission critical image delivery, I couldn't agree with you more, so many people have been bitching about 'pros only use dual cards' bullshit for so long, I have had way more lens and body failures than card issues.


----------



## Skux (Sep 11, 2020)

"We do not cripple our cameras"

*looks at my M6 Mark II which had 24p added in a firmware update*


----------



## amorse (Sep 11, 2020)

SaP34US said:


> When would Canon have started working on r&d and deciding weather or not have the time limit?


Personally, I have no idea when they would have set that requirement, but I would have thought it could be adjusted via firmware if they really wanted to. 

Even with the EU rule gone, however, for all I know there could be other major importing nations/regions which have a similar requirement maintaining that disruption. Trade and tariff interpretation can be pretty complicated and lots of things can impact these kind of decisions. I deal with trade issues as part of my full time job, and while this is outside of my wheelhouse in the things I usually work on, I can certainly attest to the fact that the way a product is classified from one Harmonized System code (used in determining tariffs and tracking trade) to another can have significant impacts on the the final tariff required.


----------



## SteveC (Sep 11, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Nope. If you allow it to be disabled, then you will still get sued by an idiot with a tender pinkie who says you didn't make the issue clear enough for him.



Don't laugh. I've heard tell of urinal cakes labeled "do not eat." Urinal cakes ought to be the last item on Earth that need that warning label, yet our court system has led to them getting precisely that.


----------



## Dragon (Sep 11, 2020)

Skux said:


> "We do not cripple our cameras"
> 
> *looks at my M6 Mark II which had 24p added in a firmware update*


That wasn't a cripple. It was just an assumption that no one in the anticipated user base would want to use an anachronistic frame rate that does not match any consumer display in the world. Obviously the assumption was wrong (at least in the opinion of the u-Tube trolls), so they added the option back and made the menu just a little more complex for the 99% of M^ users that have no use for 24P. 24P is a Hollywood fetish (largely because it keeps cinematographers employed managing pan and zoom rates), but it is actually a terrible frame rate from a viewer perspective. Fortunately, frame interpolating TV sets have made it go away for all practical purposes.


----------



## SteveC (Sep 11, 2020)

Skux said:


> "We do not cripple our cameras"
> 
> *looks at my M6 Mark II which had 24p added in a firmware update*



That wasn't a crippling; that was a mistaken perception that no one in the target market would want to record at such a low frame rate. When they heard people demanding it, they gave it to them. 

If it had been a crippling, they would not have uncrippled it, since the (alleged) motivation would dictate to never do so.


----------



## SteveC (Sep 11, 2020)

Dragon posted damn near my exact thoughts while I was typing mine out. (And he did it better, too.)


----------



## fingerstein (Sep 11, 2020)

Being a written interview, I have doubts about real questions and real answers. I think they polished together the interview.


----------



## fingerstein (Sep 11, 2020)

PerKr said:


> They made a camera that easily outperforms the competition only to have the internet compare its 8K capabilities to the 4K capabilities of a similarly priced low-resolution video-specialized body from a competitor.


I think they should made a camera with 4K/60p with no compromises, no overheating. A reliable Canon camera. 8K... is just too hard to swallow even on the latest Apple computer. Nobody asked for 8K. People asked for a GH5, S1H, competitor in terms of size, video performance and or course price.


----------



## nchoh (Sep 11, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Are you suggesting that 29:59 recoding time limit is hard coded or something?  /s
> its is certainly just a timer that could be removed via a firmware update.



At least we are now down to the smallest cripple hammer.


----------



## Fast351 (Sep 11, 2020)

I am curious why they even bother to use a timer. None of this "reset the timer" hackery would have made any difference if they just measured the internal temperature, used some realistic time/temp rise calculation, and showed time remaining based on that. 

If the goal is not to burn up the electronics, that seems to be the norm in the electronics industry based on the number of PC CPUs and harddrives do exactly that. 

If the goal is not to burn the user, then put in a temp sensor on the frame. A decent I2C temp sensor is literally pennies.

Why go through the whole exercise of cooldown clocks, etc? Just measure the internal temp and show remaining recording time based on a predictive heat table.

FWIW, I don't really care at all. The only time I use the video function is for recording my waterski runs, 8 minutes at a time. Let's just say that I have some work to do to sort out the AF and the IS.


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Sep 11, 2020)

Chaz320 said:


> ok you guys missed the fact that I praised these two cameras but had a few small griefs with the camera. I love canon and will always love canon. All of my cameras have been canon but that doesn’t negate the fact that canon could have made this a more useable video camera at the price point of ~$4K.The focus should have been put on the HQ 4K and the camera being stable in many conditions as most of their cameras have been,



If you feel that Canon should have made HQ 4K video more stable in a roughly $4,000 hybrid camera, then what are Sony's excuses for the A7S III overheating while recording 4K at 60 FPS in some scenarios? Mind you, that's a $4,000 videocentric mirrorless camera with only a 12MP sensor, and no 8K capability. If you want a Canon video camera that meets the needs you stated in prior posts in this thread, then look forward to the upcoming EOS Cinema C70 that was teased last week.


----------



## zim (Sep 11, 2020)

peters said:


> I think they actualy do. I do not belive that the forum or even youtubers opinions are what realy shapes the professional workflow.
> 
> If you ask an actual profesional wedding photographer he wont tell you, that "this camera cant be used because the dynamic range is incredible low". They will talk about lenses, ergonomics, skintones, reliability and ease of use.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing that Micro HDMI sucks


----------



## peters (Sep 11, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> It should work on anything that supports Power Delivery, so look for 'USB-PD' markings on the charger. There are a few reports out there that PD can partially power the R5 and R6 while running, but it will still use a bit of the battery.
> My R5 still haven't shipped, so I haven't verified that myself.


Just tested it again. Looks like you are correct, thank you.
Though I found the Sony A7R IV to be less picky about this. Will check it with some other chargers that I may use for travel. Its quite nice to need only ONE charger for laptop, camera and phone while traveling


----------



## nchoh (Sep 11, 2020)

Fast351 said:


> I am curious why they even bother to use a timer. None of this "reset the timer" hackery would have made any difference if they just measured the internal temperature, used some realistic time/temp rise calculation, and showed time remaining based on that.
> 
> If the goal is not to burn up the electronics, that seems to be the norm in the electronics industry based on the number of PC CPUs and harddrives do exactly that.
> 
> ...



If the CPU is causing heat, then perhaps it's better to find some more efficient way to do some of the work. There's been so much misrepresentation in the forums in the attempt to bash Canon that it is difficult to know what the reality is. As I understand (based on what I have bothered to read), the timer is used to shut off the recording (red light), the temp sensors are used to give the go-ahead (green light). Then again, this is observation from observations (3rd hand knowledge) so it is likely that there is more complexity in the programming. Just what I understand.


----------



## Skux (Sep 11, 2020)

Dragon said:


> That wasn't a cripple. It was just an assumption that no one in the anticipated user base would want to use an anachronistic frame rate that does not match any consumer display in the world. Obviously the assumption was wrong (at least in the opinion of the u-Tube trolls), so they added the option back and made the menu just a little more complex for the 99% of M^ users that have no use for 24P. 24P is a Hollywood fetish (largely because it keeps cinematographers employed managing pan and zoom rates), but it is actually a terrible frame rate from a viewer perspective. Fortunately, frame interpolating TV sets have made it go away for all practical purposes.



The decision not to include a frame rate that has been a popular standard for a century because of concerns it would make menus "too complex" is simply ludicrous. Anyone who doesn't care is using automatic modes, and anyone who does can tell the difference and afford the half second it takes to change the option.

Also, frame interpolating "features" on TVs need to die a horrible death. I love high frame rates but if content was recorded at 24/30fps with the intention of it being viewed that way, it should be watched that way.


----------



## NorskHest (Sep 12, 2020)

Del Paso said:


> If I'm not mistaken, it's due to another "intelligent" EU law, saying that whatever records longer than 29,59 must be declared a movie or video camera.
> But please, please, don't ask me why...maybe a different taxation?


That’s not a thing anymore


----------



## David - Sydney (Sep 12, 2020)

Eclipsed said:


> That seems unlikely. More likely either failed or operational. And >95% likely aren't shooting 8k to overheat on a regular basis. I have yet to shoot a single frame of video.


The shutter count has been the only indicator of usage/lifespan for second hand cameras to date. Video usage hasn't been an issue. Semiconductor lifespan decreases when run over their rated maximum operating temperatures. Canon clearly designs their SW to ensure long lifespan but these hacks can override this. It is probably unlikely to occur within the normal 1 year Canon warranty period unless they are doing crazy stuff but 5x more likely given the Canon Australia 5 year warranty. 
I will be trying some 4k120 tomorrow for some underwater video for the first time


----------



## reefroamer (Sep 12, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> The shutter count has been the only indicator of usage/lifespan for second hand cameras to date. Video usage hasn't been an issue. Semiconductor lifespan decreases when run over their rated maximum operating temperatures. Canon clearly designs their SW to ensure long lifespan but these hacks can override this. It is probably unlikely to occur within the normal 1 year Canon warranty period unless they are doing crazy stuff but 5x more likely given the Canon Australia 5 year warranty.
> I will be trying some 4k120 tomorrow for some underwater video for the first time


It will be interesting to learn of your R5 video experience in an underwater housing.


----------



## mpmark (Sep 12, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> I, similar to Roger's comment in his blog, am pretty much over the whole overheating discussion.
> I get that people want to extend recording times for 8K/30 and 4k/120. I suggest that waiting for Canon's firmware release with lower bitrates (probably compression/Cinema raw light) and externally recording wth no cards will increase record times for those desperately needing it. If that isn't good enough then there will be hardware hacks with drilling holes and peltier coolers etc for a specific use case - otherwise get another 8k video camera that does the job they want.
> The main thing for me is short clips for 8k raw (30 fps frame grabs) or maybe some 4k/120 short clips but HD/120 would be enough without triggering overheating. It works to specifications and I am happy to live within them. Just waiting for H265 hardware acceleration to be available before upgrading my PC



most sensible comment I’ve heard in a long time!


----------



## vangelismm (Sep 12, 2020)

Fast351 said:


> I am curious why they even bother to use a timer. None of this "reset the timer" hackery would have made any difference if they just measured the internal temperature, used some realistic time/temp rise calculation, and showed time remaining based on that.
> 
> If the goal is not to burn up the electronics, that seems to be the norm in the electronics industry based on the number of PC CPUs and harddrives do exactly that.
> 
> ...



The clock is just to discourage professional video usage.

With all the reset hacks it is clear that the camera never read the internal temp.

Looks like we can put this camera on the oven, and it will turn on giving us 20 minutes.


----------



## dflt (Sep 12, 2020)

Chaz320 said:


> Let’s be honest.
> 
> 1. the idea of a hybrid camera, in the R5/R6 is pretty good.
> 
> ...


Show me your movie reel/still images and if you can sweat out something that resembles an image/video then you can shoot you wishes. Otherwise, just bugger off with your idiotic demands.


----------



## Occams_Cat (Sep 12, 2020)

peters said:


> Because its a custom regulation in europe and other countries. "video" cameras get an extra Tax which is substantial. Most photographers dont want to pay 20% for a camera, just for a feature that 98% of people never miss. Thats why nearly all dslr/dslm cameras are limited to 29:59
> He would have made a fool of himself if he actualy ask such a basic question to a canon exec.



_'Video camera recorders_ are subject to import duty of 4.9% or 14%, still image _cameras_ are duty free' 

I doubt there are many people here who don't already know why the limit was imposed, but as pointed out by a previous reply the extra tax should have already been lifted following a change in the tax legislation dictated by the Information Technology Agreement. There is no reason why this limit should exist anymore.


----------



## Go Wild (Sep 12, 2020)

adigoks said:


> IIRC you need to turn on 'legalize' in atomos ninja to get exact same output as internal recording footage


Yeah....funny thing is that I did that! I must dig a bit to see whats up on this.


----------



## Dragon (Sep 12, 2020)

Skux said:


> The decision not to include a frame rate that has been a popular standard for a century because of concerns it would make menus "too complex" is simply ludicrous. Anyone who doesn't care is using automatic modes, and anyone who does can tell the difference and afford the half second it takes to change the option.
> 
> Also, frame interpolating "features" on TVs need to die a horrible death. I love high frame rates but if content was recorded at 24/30fps with the intention of it being viewed that way, it should be watched that way.


Sorry, but 24 fps was chosen because that was as fast as they could get film to reliably pull down at the time. It is never displayed at 24 fps. Even film uses a 48 fps shutter in the projector (of course the image only moves at 24 fps). With television, it is far worse because of 3-2 pulldown. I.e. you see one captured frame for 3 frames of display and the next captured frame for 2 frames of display. In the interlace TV days, that meant that interlace fields were crossing between captured frames. In today's high resolution world (particularly 4k), any motion produces horrible motion judder unless you slow the capture shutter down to the point that all motion is just a blur. If you capture with a short shutter and display on a motion interpolating tv, the result is quite hard to distinguish from an actual high frame rate capture except in high motion areas where there will inevitably be motion aliasing. Also, there are psychophysical consequences from watching too much motion judder. It is bad for your eyes and bad for your brain.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 12, 2020)

tcphoto said:


> ...How difficult is it to swap an identical body out in the event that one overheats? If you’re going to capture at 8K, there are certain risks for shooting at technologies razor edge, yes?



Except that the length of time for the A camera to cool down is apparently a lot longer than the time you have to record on the B camera. So, instead of needing a second camera, you might need a third or a fourth camera. 

I'm not a video person, I'm a stills shooter who only shoots video on rare occasions and never 8K. But I get really tired of other stills shooters telling video folks what they need or should expect.


----------



## Chig (Sep 12, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Weird he didn’t ask the Canon guy about the 30 minute restriction which should be removed on all cameras now as the European tax on video has been removed but otherwise pretty sensible


----------



## Otara (Sep 13, 2020)

Maybe its also trying to reduce any risk of getting caught up in trade wars? The US /China back and forth has made things fairly unpredictable tariffs wise, and cameras are one of the areas impacted.


----------



## canonnews (Sep 13, 2020)

Fast351 said:


> I am curious why they even bother to use a timer. None of this "reset the timer" hackery would have made any difference if they just measured the internal temperature, used some realistic time/temp rise calculation, and showed time remaining based on that.



the RTC (real time clock) runs no matter what. so it's pretty simple that the camera would save temp measurements and the time it was taken.

then when it takes a new measurement it samples the temp and the current time, then uses the two values to determine the current rate of increase / decrease. You can't do predictive measurement without a rate.

screwing around with the date/time obviously causes a software fault in that calculation.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Sep 13, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> The shutter count has been the only indicator of usage/lifespan for second hand cameras to date. Video usage hasn't been an issue. Semiconductor lifespan decreases when run over their rated maximum operating temperatures. Canon clearly designs their SW to ensure long lifespan but these hacks can override this. It is probably unlikely to occur within the normal 1 year Canon warranty period unless they are doing crazy stuff but 5x more likely given the Canon Australia 5 year warranty.
> I will be trying some 4k120 tomorrow for some underwater video for the first time



Don't get bit by a shark....or have a turtle snap off your...finger


----------



## melgross (Sep 13, 2020)

I found his responses to the questions to be honest, and sensible. Too many people are focusing on the video, forgetting that unlike the new Sony III, this is not a video camera disguised as a still camera.


----------



## francomade (Sep 13, 2020)

I dont trust the answers. There have been reviews whereby temperature gun was used and there was not much increase in temperature during and after recording.


----------



## Viggo (Sep 13, 2020)

I guess now we know why the body itself isn’t a heat sink. Who would’ve thought Canon actually was way head of all the armchair *insert meme-man here* inginirs.


----------



## YuengLinger (Sep 13, 2020)

francomade said:


> I dont trust the answers. There have been reviews whereby temperature gun was used and there was not much increase in temperature during and after recording.


Oooooooooooooooooooooooo you don't trust the answers. So get a camera that isn't manufactured by some vast evil corporation and go out and take some photos.


----------



## Inspired (Sep 13, 2020)

Couldn't someone design a drop-in filter that uses some sort of electronic cooling agent?


----------



## melgross (Sep 13, 2020)

francomade said:


> I dont trust the answers. There have been reviews whereby temperature gun was used and there was not much increase in temperature during and after recording.


That’s wrong. There have been large increases. Just go to the Lensrentals camera blog to see their tests.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Sep 13, 2020)

Viggo said:


> I guess now we know why the body itself isn’t a heat sink. Who would’ve thought Canon actually was way head of all the armchair *insert meme-man here* inginirs.



it's weird that Canon wrote that their magnesium body was a heat sink. It's the same material they always used for their higher end bodies.

From DPREVIEW: 

_"Canon starts off the notice laying out the steps it’s taken to ‘manage the potential for overheating’ in its EOS R5 and EOS R6 camera. Two bullet points in the notice read:
_

_Magnesium alloy was used in the body to dissipate heat away from internal components"_


----------



## SteveC (Sep 13, 2020)

melgross said:


> I found his responses to the questions to be honest, and sensible. Too many people are focusing on the video, forgetting that unlike the new Sony III, this is not a video camera disguised as a still camera.



Disguised as a still camera with fewer megapixels than my Rebel.


----------



## Viggo (Sep 13, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> it's weird that Canon wrote that their magnesium body was a heat sink. It's the same material they always used for their higher end bodies.
> 
> From DPREVIEW:
> 
> ...


I guess they’re technically right as it is not a thermos, but it’s too poor to really do anything, and at the same time keep the user safe from low temp burns. But, it’s a real marketing hype to call the body a heat sink. I’m glad it isn’t though, if it was as hot as the back cover of my iMac for instance , it would be pretty useless. Much worse than 20 minute 8K


----------



## Terry Danks (Sep 13, 2020)

Just another photographer here pretty sick of the whole issue and with no sympathy for those expecting (demanding?) Arri/Red video endurance from a hybrid camera. I never heard of EOSHD until this issue arose. Think the guy is a jerk and has made a total fool of himself! Take Canon to court over this? What a laugh! DO IT! 

My only complaint about the R5 is that I'm still waiting for one to be delivered! I did chuckle at Jared Polin's video where he lauded it over those of us who can't get our hands on an R5 for love nor money. "I've got three. You've got none!" And then repeats himself to really rub it in! 
I still "got none!"


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Sep 13, 2020)

melgross said:


> That’s wrong. There have been large increases. Just go to the Lensrentals camera blog to see their tests.



The only temp that looked slightly concerning was the CFast card, hitting around 50c(only a slight concern for a burn if someone holds it in their hand for a minute(assuming the card doesn't cool down by the minute mark, which it will). 

The body itself doesn't get that hot, even in direct sunlight as we've seen in the tests against the A7S III.


----------



## bitcars (Sep 13, 2020)

In hind sight, assuming Canon is telling the truth, a smarter move is to implement some user control for the timer based thermal management. User can have options to turn off the timer or extend it, etc. Also the camera should warn about "low heat burns" instead of "overheating" and cutoff when the it isn't actually overheating.


User may be wearing glove/protections, or mounting the camera on a tripod or gimble. When people are safe from the low temp burns, they should be able to opt out the timer thermal management. The heat sensors alone should provide sufficient protection for the camera's internal components ---- this approach has been used in electronics for decades and is very straightforward.
The timer based thermo-cutoff has its merits, but should display a low burn warning instead of the overheat warning. This way users are better informed, and it shows off a user-oriented and sensible side in Canon's design, not the "cripple hammer" or "unfinished product" impression.
IMHO these changes should be purely software, they might just save Canon a lot of PR headaches.


----------



## YuengLinger (Sep 13, 2020)

How hot does a camera get when it's in the center console of a car in the summer? Does anybody think it's a good idea to leave there camera in a car day after day in the summer? Don't the long-term effects of heat cause wear and tear to electronics and seals or gaskets? And maybe deformation of plastic?


----------



## David - Sydney (Sep 13, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Don't get bit by a shark....or have a turtle snap off your...finger


I love turtles but very rare to see them in Sydney. Lady Elliot Island is a breeding sanctuary and their lagoon is full of them and half the year there are manta rays on the other side of the island. Can't wait to get back there in a few months.
I saw lots of Port Jackson sharks and woobegong sharks yesterday and got some closeups as they are pretty chill  Sharks are cool.


----------



## nchoh (Sep 14, 2020)

vangelismm said:


> With all the reset hacks it is clear that the camera never read the internal temp.



Nope. The camera can be cooled fasted in a fridge add also shuts down faster in hotter climates.


----------



## nchoh (Sep 14, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> it's weird that Canon wrote that their magnesium body was a heat sink. It's the same material they always used for their higher end bodies.
> 
> From DPREVIEW:
> 
> ...



Fair question. Notice it doesn't say 


_Magnesium alloy was used in the body to keep internal components cool"_

Clever wording by Canon USA. _manage the potential for overheating’ _ means what? To keep shooting video? Or to keep components (or manage) from overheating?


----------



## David - Sydney (Sep 14, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> It will be interesting to learn of your R5 video experience in an underwater housing.


I took some 4k120 video but haven't gone through it yet. Will be a few days until I get some time to work on it.
I was happy with the stills performance especially the continuous autofocus on bursts. I got a good keeper rate which can be difficult when you and generally the subject are moving. I am sure IBIS was working hard 
It was picking the right subject most of the time automatically (on animal priority) which is interesting as there were fish, sharks, cuttlefish, moray eels plus other stuff which I am not sure were included in the deep learning algorithms.
Working out the best method to view the subject was tricky. The viewfinder covers the face sensor which means that the back LCD was never on and the viewfinder on 100%. I tended to use the back LCD for settings and optical viewfinder for shooting with my 5Div. The angle is tricky though as you (preferably) want to be slightly under your subject and my neck doesn't stretch too far! A 45 degree viewfinder attachment is an option but an expensive one. So I just switched used the LCD only. I shot wide angle so this is not as critical as it is for macro setups. I definitely loved the 45mp shots as I cropped pretty hard for some shots.
The water temperature was about 16C so quite chilly but the body has a partial vacuum so should be a reasonable insulator. That said, I had 50% battery life left and that was after 2 hours underwater. Similar to my 5Div in that respect. I think that if I had the viewfinder on 100% instead of the LCD (or both) then battery life would have suffered more. Had to get used to triggering the wake up function (half shutter press) as I was moving the camera into position so there was no delay.


----------



## canonnews (Sep 14, 2020)

crazyrunner33 said:


> The only temp that looked slightly concerning was the CFast card, hitting around 50c(only a slight concern for a burn if someone holds it in their hand for a minute(assuming the card doesn't cool down by the minute mark, which it will).
> 
> The body itself doesn't get that hot, even in direct sunlight as we've seen in the tests against the A7S III.



the body exterior doesn't get "that hot" but that's not the point. Roger from lensrentals mentioned that that the performance of the DC to DC convertors start to suffer at 60C. it could create scenarios where you could get thermal runaway if you kept at it for long, it certainly can degrade the performance of both the sensor and the camera running electronics at higher than recommended tempertures.

Also the temp's did go into the mid 40's which is pretty close to bad temptures for hand holding. there is the err on the side of caution here because the enternal case temperature is a "guess" that they would be making based upon internal and ambient tempertures and not an exact science.


----------



## vangelismm (Sep 14, 2020)

nchoh said:


> Nope. The camera can be cooled fasted in a fridge add also shuts down faster in hotter climates.



Do we have any video about it?


----------



## melgross (Sep 14, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> it's weird that Canon wrote that their magnesium body was a heat sink. It's the same material they always used for their higher end bodies.
> 
> From DPREVIEW:
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, magnesium isn’t a great heat sink. Aluminum is much better.


----------



## melgross (Sep 14, 2020)

crazyrunner33 said:


> The only temp that looked slightly concerning was the CFast card, hitting around 50c(only a slight concern for a burn if someone holds it in their hand for a minute(assuming the card doesn't cool down by the minute mark, which it will).
> 
> The body itself doesn't get that hot, even in direct sunlight as we've seen in the tests against the A7S III.


I do t know what you were looking at, but Lensrentals was very concerned at the internal heat, and that the body wasn’t effectively conducting it out. That’s why the outside of the body doesn’t get that hot.


----------



## stevelee (Sep 14, 2020)

Occams_Cat said:


> I wish he'd asked why the 29'59" record limit is still in place!


Isn't that because of tax laws somewhere, or have they repealed those taxes?


----------



## stevelee (Sep 14, 2020)

Jim Corbett said:


> Merging a Ferrari and Rolls Royce may sound great and cheaper in theory, but in real life it's going to fail and cost way more.



Wasn't that the Bentley, sort of?


----------



## stevelee (Sep 14, 2020)

Skux said:


> The decision not to include a frame rate that has been a popular standard for a century because of concerns it would make menus "too complex" is simply ludicrous. Anyone who doesn't care is using automatic modes, and anyone who does can tell the difference and afford the half second it takes to change the option.
> 
> Also, frame interpolating "features" on TVs need to die a horrible death. I love high frame rates but if content was recorded at 24/30fps with the intention of it being viewed that way, it should be watched that way.


TVs with 120 or 240 fps refresh rates are common these days, aren't they? They shouldn't have to interpolate frames for 24fps. That should be switchable in menus on the TV.

For legacy frame rates, I'd like to shoot black-and-white at 18fps.


----------



## nchoh (Sep 14, 2020)

vangelismm said:


> Do we have any video about it?


----------



## Otara (Sep 14, 2020)

One confusion seems to be that these external temperatures are only decided by Canon, rather than also being about standards that Canon is expected to adhere to. 









Surface Temperatures of Electronics Products: Appliances vs. Wearables | Electronics Cooling


by MP Divakar, PhD, Stack Design Automation Technical Editor, Electronics Cooling Online Prior to designing the requisite thermal management solution, engineers routinely calculate the junction temperatures of active and passive components using various methods at their disposal –finite...




www.electronics-cooling.com





And Im sure they have zero interest in it being optional given the potential for lawsuits where people swear it was turned off and they got burned anyway.


----------



## David - Sydney (Sep 15, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> It will be interesting to learn of your R5 video experience in an underwater housing.


The 4k/120 video is gorgeous! Big files... especially when I didn't stop recording correctly on the last one and it filled up the card with a 60gb file!


----------



## mindfest (Sep 15, 2020)

nchoh said:


> I'll give it a shot. My guess is...
> 
> Canon can and probably does know how much heat the CPU generates for each specific operation (stills shooting, 8K video recording) by testing the electronics without the body in a lab. With this knowledge, their programmers probably felt that that using the operation and time was a better way of determining shut down than continually reading the temperature(s).


So you mean in their labs with different climate sorroundings and then choosen the middle best time frame for cooling between the "arctic"-lab, the "north-and-south-america"-lab and the "i don´t believe in climate change so i didn´t thought about 35 degrees celcius mid summer possible even in europe" lab?

This is a lot of testing instead of relying on, a pretty new technology, called temp sensors...


----------



## vangelismm (Sep 15, 2020)

nchoh said:


>


 
Thanks, the camera restart with 19 minutes when the cooler thing is attached.


----------



## nchoh (Sep 15, 2020)

mindfest said:


> So you mean in their labs with different climate sorroundings and then choosen the middle best time frame for cooling between the "arctic"-lab, the "north-and-south-america"-lab and the "i don´t believe in climate change so i didn´t thought about 35 degrees celcius mid summer possible even in europe" lab?
> 
> This is a lot of testing instead of relying on, a pretty new technology, called temp sensors...



Nope, heat generation is independent of the external temperature, only need one lab to determine that. Basic physics.

Try harder...


----------



## melgross (Sep 15, 2020)

Otara said:


> One confusion seems to be that these external temperatures are only decided by Canon, rather than also being about standards that Canon is expected to adhere to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are no standards regarding external body temperatures. There are manufacturer data sheets telling of temperature limits that should be held to. But they’re not written in stone. I used to design pro audio products for a company I was a partner in. We could buy devices with differing temp cutoffs. Chips, for example came in different packages. Plastic was consumer level usually with a 65 degree C rating. Commercial chips were metal packages with an 80-85 C rating, and ceramic with a 105C rating. The chips inside were usually exactly the same, just differences in packaging.

the heat recommendations don’t just matter in an absolute sense, but also in a cycle sense. You would get many more on off cycles with higher rated packages. Generally, most CPU and memory chips are not run higher than 60C. But sometimes they may exceed those ratings for short periods. Come too close too often, and chip life is reduced. It’s up to the manufacturer to decide how they want to handle that. Sony solved an overheating problem by just turning the cutoff up in a firmware update. Canon says the better integrated the external heat measurements with the internal ones to give the camera some idea as to how the body was responding, as so to decide whether the internal temps would be able to have their heat drained more quickly, or less quickly.


----------



## Aregal (Sep 23, 2020)

Chaz320 said:


> Let’s be honest.
> 
> 1. the idea of a hybrid camera, in the R5/R6 is pretty good.
> 
> ...




To answer 3: I feel like canon did deliver what the "big" YouTubers were wanting; full frame 4K, IBIS, and 120fps (although in 4K only). Why is that important? I feel it's because of the hits that these content creators generate are measurable. (I used to work with Samsung marketing execs.) Having measurable stats drives monies for future campaigns.


I know is where I get subjective, but I feel the current image that the R5 produces is great and I've never felt the need for Canon Log 3 (I've worked with ARRI RAW, R3D, Canon RAW and Slog2). I've been saying this for nearly the past 3 months and my R5 has not overheated or given me a temperature warning on my projects. The most I've seen is my 4K120 clock drop to 5min and my 8K clock drop to 7min.

To answer 5: Canon has always played the "conservative" card. Who remember the Canon XL2 vs. Panasonic DVX100A/B days? Canon always seems to sit in the back row and see what everyone elses does before they offer something....and when they do, it seems to under deliver but many seem to end up liking it in the end.

The R5 was definitly Canon stepping outside of their comfort-zone, which many asked, and they got crucified for it. Honestly, I don't think we'll ever see a bold offering from Canon again because of the initial market backlash.

The C500ii, 1DxIII, C300iii, and R5 was the new supercharged trajectory Canon was heading. We'll see if that continues with the C70/C50.

TLDR; I think the R5 is a stellar product and a gorgeous image in both stills and video.


----------



## Aregal (Sep 23, 2020)

nchoh said:


> Nope, heat generation is independent of the external temperature, only need one lab to determine that. Basic physics.
> 
> Try harder...



...or Canon can just paint the bodies in L-series White. Haha.


----------



## analoggrotto (Sep 27, 2020)

EOSHD has a song dedicated to the cripple hammer. 

So well received by the forum, the forum thread dedicated to it's intellectual discussion was banned after a whopping 2 posts!


----------



## Joules (Sep 28, 2020)

Aregal said:


> The R5 was definitly Canon stepping outside of their comfort-zone, which many asked, and they got crucified for it. Honestly, I don't think we'll ever see a bold offering from Canon again because of the initial market backlash.


But vocal groups on the internet are not 'the market'. What backlash is there in the market? As far as I'm aware the pre-orders are still not all fulfilled from people who ordered on the first day. The demand is huge, and once the dust settles, I suspect the R5 will be a milestone for Canon. The outcry seems louder and greater, because so many people are interested in this camera this time and therefore the absolute number of disappointed people is greater too.

I would suspect Canon to go all out in the neir future. It started with the M6 II, and the R6 and especially R5 are just taking the technology that was hinted there to their logical conclusion. In hindsight, the 1DX III is pretty conservative still, but that is also what one would expect from the 1-series. The R5S/R3, R1 and potentiall R7 will likely push the boundaries even further.


----------



## Aregal (Sep 28, 2020)

Joules said:


> But vocal groups on the internet are not 'the market'. What backlash is there in the market? As far as I'm aware the pre-orders are still not all fulfilled from people who ordered on the first day. The demand is huge, and once the dust settles, I suspect the R5 will be a milestone for Canon. The outcry seems louder and greater, because so many people are interested in this camera this time and therefore the absolute number of disappointed people is greater too.
> 
> I would suspect Canon to go all out in the neir future. It started with the M6 II, and the R6 and especially R5 are just taking the technology that was hinted there to their logical conclusion. In hindsight, the 1DX III is pretty conservative still, but that is also what one would expect from the 1-series. The R5S/R3, R1 and potentiall R7 will likely push the boundaries even further.


Ooh I do agree with you. I really hope that Canon doesn't go back into their "comfort zone", the R5 has been more than everything I've been looking for. All I wanted was full-frame 4K60 (for b-roll) and possibly 10-bit interal (as hinted by the 1Dxiii). What I have now is a very useful tool for 4K23:98 and 4K120 (for b-roll) all in 10-bit recorded internally. I've never overheated or recieved a temp. warning since take delivery 7/30.

The only thing that would make me possibly replace my R5 would be a fullframe version of the C70 only because of DGO. (I was looking at old Arri Alexas prior to deciding on an R5; the prices aren't that much far apart now.)


----------

