# Body upgrade - Florida trip



## jerome2710 (Jun 30, 2013)

Hi all!

I have been looking around for an upgrade of my current 450D bodies for some time now.
First one, then two 450Ds have been in my ownership since the release in 2008. I learned a lot from them, but I think I'm ready to step up.

I will visit Florida this summer for a two week trip. Things I miss about the 450D are the colours and details. I’m afraid I will be disappointed by something that could have been prevented.



Two bodies I'm still fighting with; the 7D and 6D.
These are actually very different from eachother, but I find the desicion hard.

I really like the 6D. It's something totally different (fullframe) and I can start to learn new things. The 16-35 is usually my walk-a-round lens, which would become quite wide. Is this fun in Florida, or is even the 35mm impractical without the crop-factor? Another advantage is the SD-capability. I wouldn't have to buy new cards as the 450D uses SDs too.
One camera 'below' the 6D seems to be the 7D, in my opinion. It does have a faster AF-system and a higher frame rate. But how much of an upgrade is it from my 450D? Advantages of the 7D are of course the crop-factor and the lower price (1699€ vs. 1049€ after cash back).

Which one would you pick and why?
I actually shoot all kind of things. The main focus for now is Florida, but I do shoot some sports sometimes. But even the 6D seems like an upgrade regarding sports compared to my 450D.

A small list of my current gear could be useful;
- 16-35mm f/2.8L II
- 50mm 1.8
- 70-200mm f/2.8
- 580EX II

Thank you very, very much for any input.

Kind regards,
Jerome


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## Dylan777 (Jun 30, 2013)

With your current gear: "450D + grip 2x, 16-35 f2.8L II, 70-200 f2.8L, 50 f1.8, 580EX-II", I would go with 6D.

6D will be a huge step up from 450D. You will see big improvement in IQ and so much better in high ISO. Your lenses are setup for FF. I doubt you would use that 580EX again once you acquire FF.

7D is a great outdoor camera, shooting fast moving subject. Not so much for indoor.

Be prepare to sell your 450D. Most people end up selling their crop after shooting with FF ;D


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## brad-man (Jun 30, 2013)

Agree with Dylan. 7D will allow you to get shots you couldn't get with your 450 due to AF, etc., but the overall IQ will be a modest improvement. The 6D will be a major quantum leap improvement in IQ, and you won't feel the need to upgrade again so soon. You have good lenses, so perhaps you could rent a 6D for your vacation and be patient for a new body. The rumored 70D would appear to be a very nice upgrade for you, though how long before it is released is anybody's guess.


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## Hesbehindyou (Jun 30, 2013)

I went from 1000D to 550D (very similar to 7D IQ-wise) for movie mode, high ISO improvements and the bigger rear screen (easier to check for soft images due to user error). Low-ISO shots are pretty much the same but high ISO is better - ISO3200 is usable with post-processing.

Recently I bought a 5D mark I to complement to 550D and it's been a massive improvement for certain types of shots. Access to a shallower depth of field and sharper drop offs to out of focus areas give my images much more impact.

If I had to choose between 6D and 7D I'd go 6D every time. In my opinion 7D is only worth considering if you need the autofocus modes and/or burst rate.


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## jerome2710 (Jun 30, 2013)

Thank you all very much!

It's nice to see you all agree.
I think I don't need the AF performance of the 7D, because the AF of the 6D is already such an improvement from the 450D.

I'm excited! Probably go and try out the 6D in the shop this week.
Please keep posting your thoughts, I'm happy to hear them.


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## distant.star (Jun 30, 2013)

.
Thanks first for a coherent and well thought out question. I'll just list a few thoughts that come to mind from my experience going from a T2i to a 5D3.

1. The 7D is a great camera and does many things well. However, if you get that, you're buying yesterday. It's now approaching its fifth year -- and in many ways it's about to be eclipsed by the new 70D. Personally, I believe it is soon to be replaced with a stunning 7D2, however I also think Canon could simply abandon it as the market may be compressing.

2. The 6D doesn't seem to have the sophisticated AF capabilities (and FPS rate) of the 7D, but you seem to suggest that isn't a priority for you.

3. The 6D has WIFI capability, and that may open up interesting new avenues for you. It's a lot more than social networking as it provides access to a lot of fascinating technological capabilities -- and I think that will expand. Eventually there may be things available to WIFI cameras that really excite you. And you mentioned the possibility of learning new things -- well, here's one. That may also play into the change in memory card type (and expense) for you -- if you can offload the memory using WIFI, you may need to buy less overall card storage.

4. With a 6D you'll see a huge change in your focal length capabilities. On the good side, in my opinion as I love wider angles, you'll go down to a true ultra-wide with the 16mm end of your lens. Again, you'll learn something new as you adapt to the issues of getting good wide angle pictures. On the other end, you'll reduce your reach from 320 to 200. For your sports shooting, that may seem crippling. You can get it back with an extender, but that's more expense. You may want to really ponder all this as your current walkaround lens (the 16-35) is a 25-56 on your current camera. You may feel really constrained by only going to 35mm on the long end of your walkaround.

5. As others have said the image quality of the 6D will give you a quantum leap in improvement over what's currently available in crop sensors. It will provide new challenges, but again, you said you wanted to learn new things.

6. While I would not recommend selling your flash, you will find the high-ISO capabilities of the 6D will change the way you look at light -- and your images may take on a new look.

Lastly, you may want to keep your eye on the new 70D. It may provide a good alternative, but it may also not be available for your Florida trip.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## jerome2710 (Jun 30, 2013)

Dear Sir,

Thank you very much for your detailed explanation. It's really useful to me.

1. Indeed, the 7D is already approaching it's fifth year. One of the disadvantages in my 6D vs. 7D comparison. Maybe I should be looking at an 6D vs. 70D comparison, but I think I've already made up my mind when the 70D comes for sale.

2. AF capabilities aren't one of my main demands. I do like shooting some (motor)sports once in a while, but that's mainly panning. So I don't think I need the FPS rate and high-speed AF. Even though, the 6D would already be an improvement on my 450D.

3. While you replied on this topic, I was just watching some 6D wifi demonstrations. It surely looks interesting!

4. Focal length is probably my only issue regarding full frame. I actually do like wider angles too, but sometimes you do need to shoot some detail. Grabbing my 70-200 out of my bag during the Florida trip seems a bit clumsy. Do you think the 1.8 of my 50mm would do any good on the 6D? It would be a lot more handy than the big 70-200mm. If the quality of the 1.8 would void the 6D, what would you suggest for now? The 1.4? Or save a little longer for a new walk-a-round?

5. This one makes me excited!

6. I won't be selling my flash. The flash is only used during event photography, where an additional light source required.

I will keep an eye on the 70D, thank you. It will be interesting to see what Canon brings us next.
Again, thank you for your detailed reply.


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## Pitbullo (Jul 1, 2013)

I dont have either camera, 7D or 6D (I use a 550D), but I do read a lot about gear, so I think I can comment here. Especially on the autofocus part, because from people that actually use it, they say that as long as they use the center point, the camera is actually very very capable AF wise. Fast and accurate. 
If I was in your shoes, I´d go 6D, no hesitation.


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## Grumbaki (Jul 1, 2013)

jerome2710 said:


> 6. I won't be selling my flash. The flash is only used during event photography, where an additional light source required.



No one said sell it now but you will (probably) end up selling it with 6D. High ISO on FF are that good. As long as you're not out in the woods, FF+f1.4ish+PP = Night vision.

Just to quote HCB: (shooting with flash) "is impolite...like coming to a concert with a pistol in your hand."


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## Random Orbits (Jul 1, 2013)

Grumbaki said:


> jerome2710 said:
> 
> 
> > 6. I won't be selling my flash. The flash is only used during event photography, where an additional light source required.
> ...



Still need a flash for fill and strongly backlit situations and more serious portraiture (off camera). 600ex-rt supports focal lengths up to 200mm, which makes the 70-200 more useful indoor for events.


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## LewisShermer (Jul 1, 2013)

Get a 6D and throw that 50mm 1.8 in the bin. Get a 50mm 1.4 and it'll be your new best friend. You will learn to see light totally different. With my 500D / 60D / 7D I was totally an advocate of using off camera flash in low light situations but not with my 5Diii, I hardly have it on and I hardly take the 50mm 1.4 off, I do like shallow dof and blown out backgrounds though. you might enjoy the sigma 35mm 1.4, it's kind of like having 2 50mm portrait shots next to each other if you like something on the wider side, I know that 50mm isn't to everyones taste as a prime.


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## bholliman (Jul 1, 2013)

I currently own a 7D and 6D, my previous body was a 550D (T2i). The 6D is definitely your best option! You will be impressed with the image quality improvement over your 450D. The 7D IQ would not be much of an upgrade.

You will lose the 1.6x APS-C reach "advantage" with you longer lenses (200mm = 320mm, etc.), but I've found that I can crop FF pictures and end up with similar images - so personally I don't think its a real advantage. 

The reduced depth of field of a full frame body is probably the most noticeable change from your 450D. With a FF camera, you can isolate your subject easily, even at f/4.0 or 5.6 (assuming the background isn't too close) while you need f/2.8 or less or a longer lens to effectively do that with a crop body.

I have a 50 1.4 lens and use it frequently with my 6D, so I think your 50 1.8 will still have a home in your kit. I use the 50 primarily indoors for natural light pictures and when I want really shallow DOF. The 50's are sharper at f/2.0 or f/2.8 and up however, but sometimes sharpness is not that important.

Good luck with your decision.


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## bholliman (Jul 1, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> Get a 50mm 1.4 and it'll be your new best friend.



I agree that the 50 1.4 is worth the extra $250 over the 50 1.8. I find this focal length very useful on a full format camera.


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## PKinDenmark (Jul 1, 2013)

hi Jerome
Great situation, that you are in. 
You have options, you have the experience already to know what to ask for, you have several great lenses to enjoy with your future body. 
I was in a similar situation this spring (upgrading from 450D) - as posted in: 
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=14139.0

I got some good advice back, and made the decision for 6D. I have not regretted that one second. It is simply a completely different experience - not least in the areas you mention: colour and detail + high ISO capability.
(I sold my 450 immediately including two of the best EF-S lenses, that I had enjoyed in the past). 

Regarding lenses you have a two of the great 2.8 zooms. I am sure you will find, that they come to life wonderfully with a 6D. 
You may find that you would like an in-between zoom for the range between 35 and 70mm. I use the 24-105 for exactly that, and it does a good job at that. If I take only one lens for a trip, that is the one. It comes in an attractive kit with 6D. 

Enjoy your new camera and the trip. 

PS: I find the 6D AF to cover my needs well (agreed that is should not be the prime choice for BIF or fast action).
PPS: I find the WiFi even more useful than I anticipated.
PPPS: I have no own experience with 7D, which is clearly a fine action-oriented crop body. However as I read your interests, FF seems to be the way to go for you.


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## jimjamesjimmy (Jul 1, 2013)

PKinDenmark said:


> hi Jerome
> Great situation, that you are in.
> You have options, you have the experience already to know what to ask for, you have several great lenses to enjoy with your future body.
> I was in a similar situation this spring (upgrading from 450D) - as posted in:
> ...



in regards to colour and detail, im interested if you find the colour great after processing or straight out of camera? say if you have picture settings to neautral, or if you have the image pre defined before you output th eimage to a computer?

im only asking as im new to my 6d myself, and i do love the camera, but if shooting raw and with a neutral picture setting most images will come out a bit dull and not there best looking, its only after raw precessing that i get the best out of them, whats your opinion? if a new 6d owner did the same, they might be dissapointed with the initial raw results if new to this way of working?


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## PKinDenmark (Jul 1, 2013)

I find that now with 6D I use primarily JPG out of camera, as these files are much better than what I used to get. I use almost fully standard settings for the JPG-generation (did add one step of sharpening).
This requires from me that I set the white balance according to the situation.

However I must admit, that I am not done with optimizing my PP-workflow yet - and I am sure that I will come back to exploring RAW for further improvements (hence I do save RAW-files still in most cases). Only thing is, that just now it is much more fun to make photos with the 6D than to juggle with such things.


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## jerome2710 (Jul 1, 2013)

*Whoooo, how interesting to read all your thoughts!
I've have held the 6D in my hands for a couple of minutes today. I really like it! Although it's a bit small, the quality feels very nice. Probably buy a grip straight away then.

The shop owner didn't let me test the camera, the battery was taken out. That's a pity, because I wanted to shoot some images and review them later while using one of my own SD-cards.*



Pitbullo said:


> I dont have either camera, 7D or 6D (I use a 550D), but I do read a lot about gear, so I think I can comment here. Especially on the autofocus part, because from people that actually use it, they say that as long as they use the center point, the camera is actually very very capable AF wise. Fast and accurate.
> If I was in your shoes, I´d go 6D, no hesitation.



*Thank you for your message! I really do think the 6D is the right choice for me.*



Random Orbits said:


> Grumbaki said:
> 
> 
> > jerome2710 said:
> ...



*I'll definitely keep the 580EX II for party shots, but I do understand the fact that I won't be using a flash any more in most of the other situations.*



LewisShermer said:


> Get a 6D and throw that 50mm 1.8 in the bin. Get a 50mm 1.4 and it'll be your new best friend. You will learn to see light totally different. With my 500D / 60D / 7D I was totally an advocate of using off camera flash in low light situations but not with my 5Diii, I hardly have it on and I hardly take the 50mm 1.4 off, I do like shallow dof and blown out backgrounds though. you might enjoy the sigma 35mm 1.4, it's kind of like having 2 50mm portrait shots next to each other if you like something on the wider side, I know that 50mm isn't to everyones taste as a prime.





bholliman said:


> I currently own a 7D and 6D, my previous body was a 550D (T2i). The 6D is definitely your best option! You will be impressed with the image quality improvement over your 450D. The 7D IQ would not be much of an upgrade.
> 
> You will lose the 1.6x APS-C reach "advantage" with you longer lenses (200mm = 320mm, etc.), but I've found that I can crop FF pictures and end up with similar images - so personally I don't think its a real advantage.
> 
> ...





bholliman said:


> LewisShermer said:
> 
> 
> > Get a 50mm 1.4 and it'll be your new best friend.
> ...



*Whooo, all those comments on the 50 1.4 makes me curious. I think I will keep the 1.8 for the Florida trip, but maybe I'll swap it for the 1.4 when I get back.*



PKinDenmark said:


> hi Jerome
> Great situation, that you are in.
> You have options, you have the experience already to know what to ask for, you have several great lenses to enjoy with your future body.
> I was in a similar situation this spring (upgrading from 450D) - as posted in:
> ...



*Thank you for your advice! I will keep all this in mind. An in-between zoom would be perfect, although it is not an option at this time. I will need to do it with 16-35mm for now, but maybe in the future.

I will enjoy both, thank you for your kindness!*



PKinDenmark said:


> I find that now with 6D I use primarily JPG out of camera, as these files are much better than what I used to get. I use almost fully standard settings for the JPG-generation (did add one step of sharpening).
> This requires from me that I set the white balance according to the situation.
> 
> However I must admit, that I am not done with optimizing my PP-workflow yet - and I am sure that I will come back to exploring RAW for further improvements (hence I do save RAW-files still in most cases). Only thing is, that just now it is much more fun to make photos with the 6D than to juggle with such things.



*PP means Photo Professional, right? I didn't even use that once, is it recommended? For now, I have been using Lightroom to do some minor adjustments.*


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## PKinDenmark (Jul 1, 2013)

hi again Jerome.
Sorry for my ambiguity. With 'PP' I simply meant PostProcessing.
As you use Lightroom, you are probably ahead of me in this respect, as I am a long time Photoshop Elements user + some use of Canon's DPP (Digital Photo Professional).


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## jerome2710 (Jul 2, 2013)

Thank you for the clarification. 

The newly released 70D is being advertised as promising. Too bad it's release date will take some time. 
6D it is then!


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## PKinDenmark (Jul 2, 2013)

I agree - the 70D specs look really good - a major upgrade from XXXDs and previous XXDs.
(Maybe it is to my advantage that this announcement did not happen before I moved to 6D, as that may have kept me considering to stay with crop - 70D or 7DII to come. That would effectively have cost me almost a year before getting the improvements in my own hands). 
After the move to FF I have experienced what a big change that is - so I don't look back.
Also I read nothing substantial in the 70D specs that makes me regret my move to 6D and to FF.

Just my thoughts - look forward to hear your experience with your 6D soon to come.

One of my favorite shots attached below. 
(70-200mm f/4 at 200mm, f/6.3, 1/400s, ISO 3200. Quite much cropped - to around 3 Mpixel)


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## LewisShermer (Jul 2, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> PKinDenmark said:
> 
> 
> > hi Jerome
> ...



Raw & neutral is the best option for shooting so they do come out very neutral with no bias with regards to high/lowlight or saturation then you have full control over your image in your raw processor. Learn how to use raw properly and it'll improve your photography approx 8000%


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## AprilForever (Jul 2, 2013)

jerome2710 said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I have been looking around for an upgrade of my current 450D bodies for some time now.
> First one, then two 450Ds have been in my ownership since the release in 2008. I learned a lot from them, but I think I'm ready to step up.
> ...



Get the 7D. There are a whole lot of birds here! Also, it will do just fine as a landscape camera. If you has extra cash jingling, double up with a 5D mk II if you are wanting a landscape camera.


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## Dantana (Jul 2, 2013)

One thing you might consider, if finances allow it, is to get the 6D with the 24-105 kit lens. That way you are covered for a normal walk around, and at a much better price than if you were to buy the lens later.


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## bholliman (Jul 2, 2013)

The just announced 70D should be considered now as well. Looks like a great camera, Canon's new flagship APS-C.


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