# Upgrade from 400D with a low budget



## AndrehT (Apr 16, 2013)

Hello Forum,

I follow this website and forum for some months and I hope you can give me an advise.

Since a couple of years I own a Canon EOS 400D with an Sigma 18 - 200mm DC OS.
First I used it as fotoscout in clubs and took only photos in JPEG.
At the beginning of 2012 I startet with "photography", read magazins and enlarged my knowledge and startet to take photos in RAW.
So in April 2012 I bought the Canon EF 50mm 1.8 II, to see, how good the camera is and I was really impressed about the result.
The IQ can be really good (for my level and in comparison to the Sigma lens.)
To get an better IQ on all my pictures, I bought in January 2013 the Canon EF-S 15 - 85 IS USM which is a really good and sharp lens.

If i would only take pictures outdoor, with good light, I would say the 400D is enough for me.
But I also often take pictures indoor and the noise of the 400D over ISO 400 is too much.
The flash (Speedlight 430 EX II) is a great assistance, but it don't help to stay under ISO 800 in every situation.

I mainly use the camera for this genres:

- Landscape
- Indoor / Outdoor portraits
- Indoor / outdoor family/party photos
- sometimes wildlife/animals

The main reason to get a new camera is the bad ISO-performance over ISO 400 of the 400D.

Yesterday I bought an Canon 70 - 200 L F/4 IS USM on ebay (for a good price i hope) and now my budget is very low (under 1000$ - I'm a family father and photography is one of my hobbies).

I waited long time for the 70D, but do I really need the new camera? 
I think the price for the body (1199$) is too much for me.

Should I stay in the rebel line and buy the 700D or should I buy the 60D for the low price?
I think the IQ of both is nearly the same and I think the ISO-performance is ok for me.

I like the turnable display for pictures in special perspectives.
But I don't really need the touch screen, it's just nice to have.
At the moment I don't make videos, but if I want to, I think the 700D is better in case of the continues AF.

Or should I stay on the 400D and wait until the 70D (if it comes out) gets cheaper?

Questions over questions...

I hope you can help me.
And sorry for my bad english ;-)

Thank you in advance.


----------



## Skirball (Apr 16, 2013)

Based on the rumors it looks like they're recycling the same sensor on the 70D, so I don't think it'll be much of a change in IQ. They didn't really upgrade anything on the 700D either. Why not move back a generation or two and save some cash; it's all the same sensor. That is, if you think the 18MP sensor is worth the upgrade from your 400D. If the 18MP crop sensor is good enough in low light for you then I'd either get an recent Rebel for cheap (like a 600D), or drop a little more for a 60D which is a nicer package. You could look at a used 5d2 to jump to full frame, but it's going to stretch your budged and you won't be able to use half your lenses.


----------



## AndrehT (Apr 16, 2013)

Thanks a lot for your anwser.
I thought about going full frame, but that would mean, that I can't use the 15 -85mm anymore.
And I bought the lens in January.
When I sell it now, I think I make too much loss.
Which lens is the correspondent of the 15 - 85 on full frame, the 24 - 105 L F4?
On ebay there where a used 5D MK2 with the 24 - 105 for 1700€.
When I sell my 15 - 85 I'll get 430€, perhaps 470€ because of the rest warrenty.
And für the griped 400D, i think i can get 200€.
So I have to spend a little bit more than 1000€ for the used 5D MK2 + lens.
It is an possibility.
But the loss for the 15 - 85 hurts.

Or I buy a 60D, use it some years and go then to full frame.


----------



## roedi (Apr 16, 2013)

I agree with Skirball, IQ will most likely be the area where the cameras you're interested in will differ the least. 

I think you should get familiar with the size, weight and general feel of the cameras in question. Try out a 60D and a 7D with your lenses at your local store to get an idea of what to expect from bodies above the rebel line. 

If you feel happy with a Rebel, a 600d or 650d will save quite you some money without sacrificing too much IQ. 

If not, we're basically in the same situation (400d, bought some higher quality lenses and looking for an upgrade). Imo the viewfinder alone is reason enough to upgrade. 

For my taste, the 60d/6d feels perfect in terms of weight but the 7d/5d is not too heavy/bulky either. As I'm not in a hurry (yet) I'll wait for the 70d announcement. I hope the 70d will be more or less a 7d in a slightly smaller/lighter package - or at least have an impact on the 60d/7d prices.


----------



## roedi (Apr 16, 2013)

AndrehT said:


> I thought about going full frame, but that would mean, that I can't use the 15 -85mm anymore.
> [..] So I have to spend a little bit more than 1000€ for the used 5D MK2 + lens.
> It is an possibility.
> But the loss for the 15 - 85 hurts.
> ...



It all depends on what you're planning to do. E.g. the 5dmk2 and the 6d lack the AF capabilities and speed of the cheaper 7d but deliver superior IQ. And of course a smaller sensor increases your effective focal length while providing a not-so-shallow DOF.

In your budget (and mine btw) the decision is going to be a compromise.

If you thinking about going ff, I think you should also consider the 6d since it packs a more sensitive center AF sensor as well as geotagging and wifi into a smaller body (which i personally like). On occasion these cameras are already available used.


----------



## bholliman (Apr 17, 2013)

I'm not very familiar with the 400D, but don't think you will get significantly better low light IQ unless you go with a full frame body. Of course, they all cost more than your budget. So, you could save up longer for a new 6D, or possibly pick up a used 5DC or 5D2 for less money. 

If you stick with APS-C, I agree with those above who recommended buying one that is a year or two old like 550D or 50D as they have the same sensor/IQ as the newer versions, but will be much less expensive. 7D's are also pretty affordable now.

I understand your reluctance to give up the 15-85mm lens! I have one I use with my 7D (and 500D before that) and it rocks! Best EF-S lens I've owned, and I went through several before buying It. If you do go FF, the 24-105mm is pretty comparable. I think I like the 15-85 IQ and color a little better for landscapes, but the constant 4.0 aperature of the 24-105 is superior and with a FF camera, your overall IQ, especially for low-light and indoor shots, will be vastly improved. 

Good luck with your decision.


----------



## dstppy (Apr 17, 2013)

The underlying question is:
What IS your budget?

If you're going low-end . . . anytime is good. The T4i is a badass with regard to "just all around usability", the features just keep coming out.

The 60D and 7D are fabulous bodies, regardless of time on the market or market competition . . . 

If you need it now, prices are good . . . if you can wait till end of year, plot-and-plan, you'll either get the 7Dmk2, 70D, or the 60D/7D at a discount price . . .

If I were entering the DSLR market today the T4i would definitely distract me from upper-end crop bodies.

Your choice in the end.


----------



## AndrehT (Apr 17, 2013)

Thanks a lot for all your replies.

I have the money to sell my 400D + 15-85 and buy a 6D with an used 24 - 105, but my wife will kill me 
Before I baught the 70 - 200 F4 L IS USM, I said to me, 1000 - 1200€ for a new body will be ok.
But on the last bicycle trip around our local inland lake, I missed the focal length to take pictures of bird (goose, heron and so on) and found a cheap 70 - 200 (used - 640€) on ebay.

Actually i just need a better IQ at low light situations (over ISO 400) to take indoor pictures of my 3 weeks old daughter.
I want to have good pictures of my daughter, but I think the moment for an upgrade is not so good.

One possibility is, I buy an used 550D for crossing, look how it fits my needs, and upgrade when I really know in which direction (xxD,7D or full frame) I want to go
Or I say to me, that at the moment the IQ of the 400D on ISO 800 and 1600 is ok for this family photos (I'm no pro), save some money; wait until the end of the year and compare the prices of the different cameras (60D, 70D, 7D and 6D)

I'm affraid of making a wrong decision  
But you can't decide for me, I know


----------



## roedi (Apr 17, 2013)

AndrehT said:


> But on the last bicycle trip around our local inland lake, I missed the focal length to take pictures of bird (goose, heron and so on) and found a cheap 70 - 200 (used - 640€) on ebay.



In these situations you'll be probably not too happy with your 70-200 on a FF-sensor. I'm using a 70-300L with a crop camera and on many occasions the ~480mm effective focal length is still not enough. 

Based on my experiences with the 400d I think you'll get at least some improvement in IQ even in low-light situations with the newer crop cameras (at least if you scale down to the mp-count of the 400d). 

As I said before, you should definetly try some of the cameras. The viewfinder and the usability of a 60d alone will be a *huge* leap forward. And this camera is a great smaller companion for a FF camera. 

And of course for a hobbyist, there is always the option to wait. There will be better cameras for less money somewhen in the future


----------



## Skirball (Apr 17, 2013)

AndrehT said:


> Actually i just need a better IQ at low light situations (over ISO 400) to take indoor pictures of my 3 weeks old daughter.
> I want to have good pictures of my daughter, but I think the moment for an upgrade is not so good.



Are you using your 15-85 or the 50? Personally, I think the 50/1.8 is overrated; I was never happy with the quality of the photos I got from it. That said, many people love the lens and do quite well with it... maybe I had a junk copy and never knew. But you should be using it over the 15-85 in low light. If you need to keep your iso down then get your aperture open. Not to throw a bunch of new stuff onto your shopping list, but maybe the 85/1.8 could help you out.


----------



## AndrehT (Apr 17, 2013)

roedi said:


> As I said before, you should definetly try some of the cameras. The viewfinder and the usability of a 60d alone will be a *huge* leap forward. And this camera is a great smaller companion for a FF camera.
> 
> And of course for a hobbyist, there is always the option to wait. There will be better cameras for less money somewhen in the future


I think next week I go to my local dealer which is near my work and will test the 60D with my lenses.
Maybe they will lend it for a day.
As you say, I can always wait. 
But I think it is a good way to upgrade to the 60D (good price now), stay there for some years, save some money and then, if I further improved my knowledge, go to full frame.



Skirball said:


> Are you using your 15-85 or the 50? Personally, I think the 50/1.8 is overrated; I was never happy with the quality of the photos I got from it. That said, many people love the lens and do quite well with it... maybe I had a junk copy and never knew.


I personally like the 50/1.8. It makes sharp pictures, has a nice bokeh and helps in low light situations.
Just the slow AF is bad and I thought about to change it to the 50/1.4 USM (some day).
But for the babyphotos I also use the 15 - 85 with indirect flash.
And the sharpness apart from the noise is really good.
Also the IS works fine, so I'm able to work with a slower shutter speed.


----------



## bholliman (Apr 17, 2013)

AndrehT said:


> I have the money to sell my 400D + 15-85 and buy a 6D with an used 24 - 105, but my wife will kill me



Having a happy wife is more important than a better camera . Sounds like you should hold off on any purchases for now. Your 400D should take some good quality low-light pictures with you 50 1.8 or 15-85mm and 430EXII flash. 

If you stay with your current camera for now, I'd suggest some small purchases to enhance your flash photography. You can pick-up a 3' E-TTL cable to get your 430EXII off-camera, and a inexpensive soft box or flash diffuser for around $50-60. Bounce flash is OK, but off-camera flash is better


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Apr 17, 2013)

The 15-85 lens is a great lens, I have one. But, for low light, its the wrong lens.

Since you are on a budget, rather than get a new body, sell the 15-85mm lens and get a 17-55 mm f/2.8 lens.

There are also some third party lenses like the Sigma 17-50mm f/2.8 that will improve the light situation.

As far as a new body goes, new APS-C bodies do have incremental improvements in low light, but you will need FF to see anything significant. That is not a budget solution at all, since you would need a new lens as well.

Good Luck!!


----------



## rizenphoenix (Apr 18, 2013)

Pick up a T2i/550D for around $400 and a tokina 12-24 for $350 on ebay. It will round out your kit nicely.


----------

