# The Canon EOS Kiss M / EOS M50 Shows Up for Certification



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 13, 2017)

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<p>Nokishita has uncovered a new Canon camera that has appeared for bluetooth certification. It looks like it will be called the EOS Kiss M / EOS M50 depending on the market.</p>
<p><img class="aligncenter size-large wp-image-32140" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/canon-728x151.jpg" alt="" width="728" height="151" srcset="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/canon-728x151.jpg 728w, http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/canon-768x160.jpg 768w, http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/canon-225x47.jpg 225w, http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/canon-610x127.jpg 610w, http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/canon.jpg 793w" sizes="(max-width: 728px) 100vw, 728px" /></p>

<p>The naming scheme is interesting, as “Kiss” is usually held for DSLRs in Japan. Could this be the first EOS M camera with an EF mount?</p>
<p>We think this camera will be coming for CES In January at the earliest.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
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## jolyonralph (Nov 13, 2017)

No, that's silly.

It can't be an EOS M if it has EF mount!

It is a very curious announcement. With naming protocols we would expect it to be between the M100 and the M5/6 in feature/price point.

What would that be? 

An EOS M100 with EVF (ie cut-down M5)? maybe similar form-factor to Sony A6x00 series. 

An EOS M100 with hot-shoe external EVF mount (ie cut-down M6)? Unlikely.

I suspect we'll see the EF-M 18-55 II announced with this too. 

Clearly the M range are doing well in Asia (and in my household too, we have M3, M5 and M6 here)


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## HaroldC3 (Nov 13, 2017)

Well they already screwed up the naming convention so who knows where this one will fall.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 13, 2017)

The Kiss moniker suggests a consumer (xxD/xxxD) level ILC. But no Rebel moniker. Perhaps a mirrorless equivalent of the 77D / Kiss 9000.


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## andrei1989 (Nov 13, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> The Kiss moniker suggests a consumer (xxD/xxxD) level ILC. But no Rebel moniker. Perhaps a mirrorless equivalent of the 77D / Kiss 9000.



soo..a bit lower specced than the M5?
that would be the M100, right?


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## Quackator (Nov 13, 2017)

I'd bet for an APS-C with EF/EF-S mount.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 13, 2017)

andrei1989 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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> > The Kiss moniker suggests a consumer (xxD/xxxD) level ILC. But no Rebel moniker. Perhaps a mirrorless equivalent of the 77D / Kiss 9000.
> ...



M100 controls, with a built-in EVF. Done.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 13, 2017)

Quackator said:


> I'd bet for an APS-C with EF/EF-S mount.



I'm skeptical, but I actually hope this is what comes out. If so, it almost certainly indicates that the full frame mirrorless will have an EF mount.


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## unfocused (Nov 13, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> No, that's silly.
> 
> It can't be an EOS M if it has EF mount!...





neuroanatomist said:


> The Kiss moniker suggests a consumer (xxD/xxxD) level ILC.



Agreed.

We don't have access to Canon's market research or branding surveys, but this simply sounds like the "Kiss" brand is well established in certain markets and Canon wants to make sure a new consumer mirrorless camera remains identified with the "Kiss" branding.


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## slclick (Nov 13, 2017)

Since I just bought the M5 I'm sure it's an EF/EF-S mount body.


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## JohanCruyff (Nov 13, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> M100 controls, with a built-in EVF. Done.


The M50 should be worse specced than the M5 and better than the M100.

But if it has a EVF, it is - from this point of view - better than the M6, which I don't think it's plausible.

Maybe the problem is me: I thought that the current range of Canon APS-C Mirrorless was already wide enough.


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## privatebydesign (Nov 13, 2017)

It's well known among retailers that purchasing in these ranges is incredibly price sensitive. Canon have built a camera empire on knowing that and making a range of models with a feature set appealing enough to enough buyers to make them leaders. I am sure now the mirrorless bandwagon is rolling in other markets they will tailor their offerings to those ends.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 13, 2017)

JohanCruyff said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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> > M100 controls, with a built-in EVF. Done.
> ...



I don't think EVF = better. Rather, it's a choice of smaller body size with optional/removable EVF vs. larger body size with built-in EVF. Personally, I chose the M6 for full controls (unlike the M100) and smaller size. 

With the Kiss nameplate, I think it will have a built-in EVF. It will likely still use the EF-M mount. To me, this feels like Canon trying to place MILCs in their mainstream product line...span the Kiss name across the ILC line, and eventually shift the entry level from dSLR to MILC. It makes sense for this to happen first in Japan and Asia. 

Regarding the APS-C MILC range, it's not yet nearly as segmented as the APS-C dSLR range, which arguably has 6 levels: xxxxD, xxxD, xxD, and 7D, plus the small-size 100/200D and the xxxD/xxD hybrids (760D and 77D, which are EOS 8000D/9000D in Japan). So, there's plenty of room in the MILC line.


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## CanonGrunt (Nov 13, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Quackator said:
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> > I'd bet for an APS-C with EF/EF-S mount.
> ...



I hope so too. I almost wonder if they are considering abandoning the EF-M mount then. I have an M-5 & two Ef-M lenses, but I rarely use those. I always have EF or EF-s lens attached. The 50 1.4 actually feels really nice on the M5. I'd be willing to bet that the FF Mirrorless with be EF mount, and possibly Cinema orriented to compete with the Sony A7S II & A7R iii. Either way, the EOS M line is finally working out, the M5 is phenomenal IMO, but the line needs beefing up, and soon.


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## ritholtz (Nov 13, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Quackator said:
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> > I'd bet for an APS-C with EF/EF-S mount.
> ...


Neuro, 
Do you think, it is SL2 with all 80d specs. I am trying to move to sl2 from 80d. Hoping for Canon to come up with more expensive sl2 with more features. Not sure if SL2 is a big step down. But 80d is very difficult to carry most of times.


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## ritholtz (Nov 13, 2017)

CanonGrunt said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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Am i going to save lot of space and weight from 80d to M5. How does SL2 stack up with M5 in terms of features, size and spec. SL2 has same sensor as 80d and produces same measurements.


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## JohanCruyff (Nov 13, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Regarding the APS-C MILC range, it's not yet nearly as segmented as the APS-C dSLR range, which arguably has 6 levels: xxxxD, xxxD, xxD, and 7D, plus the small-size 100/200D and the xxxD/xxD hybrids (760D and 77D, which are EOS 8000D/9000D in Japan). So, there's plenty of room in the MILC line.


I agree with you, but I think that it is strange to see 6 different APS-C DSLR and so many different APS-C ML.
I would expect Canon to decide to push (and differentiate) the ML segment only when they start to reduce the APS-C range. Sooner or later...


BTW, I think that in the long run (5 years? 20 years from now? who knows!) Canon's options could be something like 
- 1M (sport FF ML)
- 5M (all-rounder FF ML)
- 5MsR ("high megapixel count" FF ML)
- 6M (cheap all-rounder FF ML)
- 7M ("pro/sport" APS-C ML)
-XXM (enthusiast APS-C ML)
- etc.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 13, 2017)

I think everyone is off in the weeds here.

Nokishita is calling this PC232xx which means it's a powershot based camera, not a DSC that a rebel would have.

As of next Feb or so, the M5 is 1.5 years old. it's due for an upgrade. Since this is just the bluetooth module certification, we could be talking closer to 2 years old for the M5 (sept 2018).

Could canon be calling that an M50 or a Kiss M because it's finally more mainstream - altogether possible and more probable. there's no laws that say that canon must follow it's DSLR naming convention for the M series.

it would not make sense to have another APS-C EF-M camera in the mix unless it was upgrading one of the three, there's simply not much room in between them all, unless canon is making an even cheaper version of the EF M100.

there's quite a bit that i'd love to see updated on my EOS-M5, so it's not as if canon's reached the pinnacle for what they can do with the series of camera bodies they already have.


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## CanonGrunt (Nov 13, 2017)

ritholtz said:


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I prefer the M5 over the 7D II most of the time. So I think you'll like it a lot and it will more than meet your needs. it's definitely better than the SL2, and I think better than the 80D as well.


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## ritholtz (Nov 13, 2017)

CanonGrunt said:


> ritholtz said:
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Thanks for the feedback. I will look out for M5 sale on Canon website. I just purchased SL2. But it is easy to sell and move to M5.

Thanks


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## James Larsen (Nov 13, 2017)

Canon's gonna do the unthinkable and it's gonna be a FF mirrorless body lol


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## ahsanford (Nov 13, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> The Kiss moniker suggests a consumer (xxD/xxxD) level ILC. But no Rebel moniker. Perhaps a mirrorless equivalent of the 77D / Kiss 9000.



You beat me to it, Neuro. The 77D immediately came to mind when I saw this.

Now lose the 'Kiss' and call it M1 and this might have been a much juicier tell.

- A


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## ahsanford (Nov 13, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> As of next Feb or so, the M5 is 1.5 years old. it's due for an upgrade. Since this is just the bluetooth module certification, we could be talking closer to 2 years old for the M5 (sept 2018).
> 
> Could canon be calling that an M50 or a Kiss M because it's finally more mainstream - altogether possible and more probable. there's no laws that say that canon must follow it's DSLR naming convention for the M series.



One would think the now pretty well segmented M5-6 / M10 / M100 market wouldn't move product at level X to a different number of digits. In other words, I expect an M5 or M6 sequel to just be a 'EOS M5 Mk II'.

I think M50 = 77D-like middle option between M5-6 and M100, and M50 would have an integral VF and M60 (to be released someday?) might be the VF-less design.

- A


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## brad-man (Nov 13, 2017)

And I suppose this Kiss will be released with yet another slooooow zoom. Yippee! Is a quick 32, 54 and an f/4 standard zoom (and while we're at it an f/4 44-125mm) really too much to ask for 

And how about a _real_ macro at say 60mm f/2.8.

There. I feel better now...


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## -1 (Nov 14, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> rrcphoto said:
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> > As of next Feb or so, the M5 is 1.5 years old. it's due for an upgrade. Since this is just the bluetooth module certification, we could be talking closer to 2 years old for the M5 (sept 2018).
> ...



Given the name the M50 could be expected to be a M10 with EVF but sans hotshoe. A M60 would be one with optional EVF, but still no hot shoe. I don't expect the last one outside the Canon design center!

If it's called Kiss M on the Canon home market than we could expect that the much cheaper to make mirrorless M series could replace that that's called Rebels and high digit DSLRs elsewhere!


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## AvTvM (Nov 14, 2017)

to me EOS *M* moniker is a clear give-away it will come with EF-*M* lens mount, not EF-S. 

I expect it to be the next low end body in the EOS M range ... cheaper than M100, same sensor but even more nerfed in UI/control points, maybe no AvTvM modes at all ... etc.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 14, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> rrcphoto said:
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> > As of next Feb or so, the M5 is 1.5 years old. it's due for an upgrade. Since this is just the bluetooth module certification, we could be talking closer to 2 years old for the M5 (sept 2018).
> ...



if that was the case, why wasn't there a M3 Mark II, or a M10 mark II,etc,etc.

it seems like the powershot group is not going by the same sequencing as the DSLR group, and this is as far as nokishita, a powershot camera.

the M10 as well has been replaced. the current naming is M5,M6,M100. the M10 went to M100, could the M5 go to M50? why not?

by the time this camera comes out it the M5 will be almost 2 years old.

it's overdue for a replacement already.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 14, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> ahsanford said:
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also, next year we should be seeing DIGIC 8 out in the wild.


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## TAF (Nov 15, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Quackator said:
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> ...



Agreed.

I regularly suggest a body in the style of a Hasselblad 500 for their first full frame mirrorless offering. I was visiting a local camera shop, and got to look at the C200. Bingo. They already have a body that is close enough to make modifying it fairly easy.

So it wouldn't be all that much a stretch.

I can only hope...


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## Karlbug (Nov 15, 2017)

TAF said:


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You mean this?! Get lost! ;D For stills it seems impractical in almost every way.
And if you want a fullframe mirrorless EF _video_ body... then you already got C200, right?


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## jolyonralph (Nov 15, 2017)

angrykarl said:


> You mean this?! Get lost! ;D For stills it seems impractical in almost every way.



I think someone is having a laugh  The Hasselblad 500 is a huge mirror in a box. Making a mirrorless camera in that format is just ridiculous!

Mirrorless allows new mounts with far greater design flexibility. I want to see innovation, I want to see new designs, new ergonomics. Some things won't work, some things will. But this is the only way to compete.

But sticking to the current layout (and lens mount) just because people are afraid of change isn't the way to innovate.

Jolyon

ps. people are afraid of losing their investment in lenses. Don't you realise that a lifetime lens is a thing of the past? New sensors, new lens releases, how many of you have traded in your 24-70 mark 1 for a mark 2? How many will trade in the mark 2 to get the IS version when that arrives?


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## Foxdude (Nov 15, 2017)

[/quote]



Mirrorless allows new mounts with far greater design flexibility. I want to see innovation, I want to see new designs, new ergonomics. Some things won't work, some things will. But this is the only way to compete.

But sticking to the current layout (and lens mount) just because people are afraid of change isn't the way to innovate.

Jolyon

ps. people are afraid of losing their investment in lenses. Don't you realise that a lifetime lens is a thing of the past? New sensors, new lens releases, how many of you have traded in your 24-70 mark 1 for a mark 2? How many will trade in the mark 2 to get the IS version when that arrives?
[/quote]

My thoughts exactly. I'm thinking to slowly replace my dslr gear with mirrorless ecosystem, and I'm interested to see what Canon has to offer in feature. I'd like to see new innovations, and high-end mirrorless design lenses, like Fuji have, and full support to system.

I really like, and love my EF glass, but they can all be replaced with new, even more attractive options.


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## bf (Nov 15, 2017)

Kiss also says it should not be full-frame. Is it a mirror-less APSC with EF mount? Does not sound well to me however there are several DSLR shooters that always use a mount adapter for their M bodies. It may be for them and a prologue to the full-frame mirror-less.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 15, 2017)

bf said:


> Kiss also says it should not be full-frame.



it does?
Rebel Kiss were originally film based cameras - full frame.


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## jolyonralph (Nov 15, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> bf said:
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Kiss has always been the 'low end', and I don't think we're at the stage yet where low-end full-frame cameras are likely.


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## bf (Nov 16, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> rrcphoto said:
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I don't even recall Canon offering a full-frame DSLR on the rebel line. The most prosumer attempt for M system has been M5 so far. It's very unlikely to call anything with a full-frame sensor rebel or kiss.


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## Adelino (Nov 16, 2017)

bf said:


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You don't recall Canon offering DSLR Rebels? There are a whole bunch still offered. I doubt the Rebel line of DSLRs will go away ver soon they sell like hotcakes!


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 16, 2017)

bf said:


> I don't even recall Canon offering a DSLR on the rebel line.



Did you mean SLR (not digital). Yes, there were like 10 Rebel film cameras (Rebel, Rebel II, Rebel X, G, K2, Ti, more I can't remember) before the first Rebel dSLR. That first Rebel dSLR was the EOS 300D in most of the world, but in the US it was the Digital Rebel.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 16, 2017)

bf said:


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Rebel / Kiss has to do with the pentamirror, ergonomics and general quality of the camera body. sensor size has squat to do with it really. Canon had 35mm cameras in the film days that were called Rebel/Kiss and certainly could again in digital.


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## bf (Nov 17, 2017)

Adelino said:


> bf said:
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I meant a "full-frame" DSLR rebel ...


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## bf (Nov 17, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> bf said:
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Is it technically possible? Yes! Is it practical at 2018?
Unlike SLRs, where you had to buy and process film on your own, sensor is a part of the DSLRs. Our argument is a full-frame sensor is too expensive for the rebel line.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 17, 2017)

bf said:


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hard to say it still is when canon managed to sell the 6D for 1400 MSRP at the end of it's lifespan, meanwhile a super-rebel floats in at around 900.

it's also hard to say that a full frame sensor would cost that much more, considering it would have a higher volume, and overtime a lower price than canon's more expensive camera sensors.

the parts in a rebel, shutter, viewfinder, etc are atypically cheaper than what you'd see on the current full frame cameras.

it's most likely an EOS-M camera anyways, so this is moot.


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## ahsanford (Nov 17, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> hard to say it still is when canon managed to sell the 6D for 1400 MSRP at the end of it's lifespan, meanwhile a super-rebel floats in at around 900.
> 
> it's also hard to say that a full frame sensor would cost that much more, considering it would have a higher volume, and overtime a lower price than canon's more expensive camera sensors.
> 
> the parts in a rebel, shutter, viewfinder, etc are atypically cheaper than what you'd see on the current full frame cameras.



As I'm sure a knowledgeable poster like you knows, it's not just the sensor that costs more when you step up to FF. The OVF, mirror, mirror box and shutter have to do more / cover more / endure more physically over that larger real estate.

But sure, if Canon severed both of its own legs and made all of its future cameras full frame, full frame cameras would come down in cost. Canon would also bleed out from abandoning their cash cow ~$700-800 crop + kit lens business.

And then there's that whole thing about... 


...the excess and obsolescence of the entire EF-S portfolio now that there aren't any EF-S cameras anymore


...the added burden of developing super cheap FF lenses for entry-level FF buyers who no longer can use EF-S 18-55s and aren't going to pony up $599 for a non-L 24-105 STM.


...Sony and Nikon would swoop in with crop cameras that are $200-300 cheaper than a $999 and (critically) not nearly as physically large as the FF equivalent.

So, yeah, Canon _could _go all in at FF, but I think they'd lose their shirt unless they wait until APS-C dries up from cell phone competition (which one thinks will be a while).

- A


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## Adelino (Nov 17, 2017)

bf said:


> Adelino said:
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In that case, yes you are right. The Rebel film cameras were FF, of course, but that is an entirely different era. The Kiss/Rebel line would have to be cropped sensor to make sense. Kiss/Rebel would be reassuring to soccer parents and tempting for beginners. There would be no marketing advantage to naming a FF Kiss/Rebel.


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## AvTvM (Nov 17, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> So, yeah, Canon _could _go all in at FF, but I think they'd lose their shirt unless they wait until APS-C dries up from cell phone competition (which one thinks will be a while).



nobody in their right mind would expect Canon to move to FF sensored gear ONLY. APS-C sensors will remain volume seller for a good number of years. Phone cameras will eventually catch up with APS-C IQ-wise but only when computational photography [multi-sensor-lens module cameras long the lines of Light L16] really delivers. It is not there yet and sure looks like we are still a number of generation jumps away ... 5+ years even in my generally optimistic views on tech innovation [outside of Canon]. 

But it is high time for Canon to finally launch a *FIRST* FF-sensored mirrorless camera and lens series. Far from an "all-in" proposition. In addition to selling mirrorslappers to n00bs and old skoolers who believe only a mirrorslapper to be "a real camera".  

And just to be sure: no, EOS M50 will NOT have an FF sensor. It will be the lowest entry point into APS-C sensored EOS M line-up. Basically a further nerfed EOS M100.


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## TAF (Nov 18, 2017)

angrykarl said:


> TAF said:
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That is precisely what I mean.

I am guessing you've never used one (indeed, perhaps never seen or held one either?), or you would know that they are quite handy; the fact that they (and a few similar offerings from other companies) still exist and are considered amongst the pinnacle of high end portrait cameras suggests that, well, the form factor has some advantages.

And I was specifically pointing to the C200 as demonstrating that Canon already has cameras in a very similar form factor, making the creation of a regular camera (not video, which simply isn't my use) in such a form factor would be much less of a development outlay than some might think.


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## Rocky (Nov 19, 2017)

TAF said:


> angrykarl said:
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It is handy as a square format camera. Handling is as good as dslr. At waist level is at perfect position for full body portrait. At eye level it is also at perfect position for head shot. If a 3:2 format is used, then holding it sideways will be a disaster.


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## jolyonralph (Nov 19, 2017)

AvTvM said:


> And just to be sure: no, EOS M50 will NOT have an FF sensor. It will be the lowest entry point into APS-C sensored EOS M line-up. Basically a further nerfed EOS M100.



That's not how Canon's number works!

They move the M10 to the M100

It makes a lot of sense that this is the M5 mark 2, with the M6 eventually being replaced by the M60

Except for one thing.

The M5 is selling great and there's no big reason to upgrade it right now. 


So, I suspect M5 and M6 will remain the premium APS-C M bodies, the M100 will remain the low-end, and the M50 will be somewhat inbetween.

I predicted, and continue to predict, an M100 with small built-in EVF, but to the side (a-la Sony A6000) rather than on top.


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## slclick (Nov 20, 2017)

It's too late to make sense of Canon's numbering/naming scheme, it went all skewampis a few years ago and there's no going back.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 20, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> AvTvM said:
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> ...



Canon upgrades cameras that are selling well. Case and point the Rebels are on 12 to 24 month refresh cycles.

the M5 is over 14 months old, it's due for an update and correction of the multitude of things that should be better if it's in the top rung of canon's mirrorless.


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## padam (Nov 24, 2017)

I think this could be the camera that will turn their market strategy upside down.

So it will have EF mount, a fully articulated 16:9 ratio screen with an EVF, built-in ND filters, full-sensor FF 4k 60p 10-bit 4:2:2 XF-AVC internal recording with proxy to dual CFExpress cards with C-Log (and DPAF of course), all in a size of a 200D body.


Ok, one thing which I predict is the absence of a headphone jack


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## LDS (Nov 24, 2017)

TAF said:


> I was visiting a local camera shop, and got to look at the C200. Bingo. They already have a body that is close enough to make modifying it fairly easy.



Just, look at how those cameras are usually rigged for shooting - not so often they are used almost "naked" with just a simple handle. Those bodies are designed for rigging - for shoulder or tripod use.

Anyway, even Hasselblad with its X1D retained the squared design when seen from the front, but made it a lot thinner.


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