# EOS BODY FOR ARCHITECTURE



## kia (Aug 24, 2012)

HI
i am an architect and i love taking pictures of buildings ( especially historic buildings) exterior and interior .... for some years i had a power shot s2is which was not bad , but had some serios weakness like lack of wide focal length , or low iso and mp .... 
now i want to change to dslr , so i need advice .... i need high mp and great details but at the same time , i need to take pictures of interior , so i need your advice on 2 subjects .
first do you think i must go ff ? 
do you think i must take 5d3 or wait for high megapixel that is coming .


one thing i forgot to say : frame rate per secound is not impotant to me .....


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## LostArk (Aug 24, 2012)

Pick up a 5D2 and use the money you'd save by skipping the 5D3 to get a 24mm TS-E II. 

/threadover


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## Z (Aug 24, 2012)

The 63-point autofocus system is unimportant for architectural photography - you will most likely want to use manual focus anyway. A tilt-shift lens is pretty much a requisite for architectural photography, and for building interiors I would recommend the Canon 17mm TS-E and a 5D Mark II. This might be too wide some of the time, so you could attach a 1.4x extender to bring it to 24mm, or use it on a crop body to make it ~"28mm".

Ideally you would want a selection of tilt-shift lenses, but this would prove quite expensive. Another thing worth mentioning is the 17mm TS-E doesn't take screw-in filters, but I know of two companies (Lucroit and more recently Fotodiox) who do make a filter system for this lens.

If you are new to photography some of what I've said might not make sense - if that's the case feel free to ask for clarification.


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## gferdinandsen (Aug 24, 2012)

LostArk said:


> Pick up a 5D2 and use the money you'd save by skipping the 5D3 to get a 24mm TS-E II.
> 
> /threadover




I agress a used 5D2 is a great choice, you might even want to consider the 24 TS-E mk 1 (used). Combined, you will spend less than on a new 5D3. As for you wanting high MP, the 21.3 that the 5D2 produces is more than enough for a 13x19 (A3+) print, in fact it has to be down scaled to print at that size.


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## pwp (Aug 24, 2012)

gferdinandsen said:


> LostArk said:
> 
> 
> > Pick up a 5D2 and use the money you'd save by skipping the 5D3 to get a 24mm TS-E II.
> ...



This is good solid advice. There is little need for a higher MP camera. You'll be gobsmacked with the IQ if you have been even remotely satisfied with your PowerShot. If you absolutely MUST have higher MP, then there's always a Nikon waiting for you at a store near you. 

-PW


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## well_dunno (Aug 24, 2012)

pwp said:


> gferdinandsen said:
> 
> 
> > LostArk said:
> ...



+1 
Also, images from a high MP camera is going to take a lot of harddisk place. Unless you are intending to make large prints or some drastic cropping, running out of space on the hard drive will be the only difference you will probably feel between 5Dmk2 and a high MP cam... IMHO anyway...

Cheers!


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## TrumpetPower! (Aug 24, 2012)

pwp said:


> gferdinandsen said:
> 
> 
> > LostArk said:
> ...



The 5DII (or III, of course) with the TS-E 24 II (NOT I) is going to give you better image quality than the D800 with anything Nikon has to offer -- never mind the megapickles. Nikon just doesn't have any lenses to compare with the TS-E 24 II.

And, short of going to medium or large format, you're not going to find a better lens for architecture than the TS-E 24 II, or a better camera to mount it on than the 5DIII, with the 5DII being more than 90% as good as the 5DIII for this application.

Cheers,

b&


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## acoll123 (Aug 24, 2012)

Hi,
I am an architect also. I second what most of the others here have been saying - get a 5D2 and a TS-E lens. I use a 17 but if you are doing primarily exterior shots, you might also consider the 24 TS-E.


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## dendowling (Aug 24, 2012)

Yeah, full frame is nice for architecture since it works well with the TS-E 24mm. FF+24 is usually good for interiors unless you need to shoot really small rooms like bathrooms - which might need the 17mm. 

Using a cropped sensor camera with the 24mm might seem too cramped for interiors but, should be OK for exteriors if you have room to backup. Some places like old narrow European streets may not always have room to back-up when using a 24mm on crop sensor. If you have a cropped sensor you may end up needing/wanting the TS-E 17mm even for large interiors or cramped exterior spaces.

The old Canon TS-E 24mm can be found used around $800-900 maybe new $1000. The new TS-E 24mm II is about $2000 and, the TS-E 17mm is about $2300. Also, you can put filters on the 24mm lenses but, you can't put filters on the 17mm. Very often you'll want to use a polarizer for architecture.

It's also a good idea to go rent TS-Es for a few days to see how you like them before buying. 

If you've never used a TS-E be careful with exposure and lens settings. Two main mistakes to avoid.. first, you can't shoot in auto exposure mode with the lens shifted. If the lens is shifted you'll get an incorrect meter reading. You have to shoot manual, make sure the shift is in neutral position, take a meter reading & set exposure then, shift your lens. Or, just use the LCD to judge your exposure setting.

Second, constantly check the Tilt setting to make sure it is always in neutral setting and locked down. It's easy to inadvertently bump it into a tilt even when it's locked and you end up with bad tilt blur when you didn't want it. 

Another useful tool for shooting architecture is to get a bubble level that slides onto your hotshot. Traditionally, you always want your vertical lines of the building to be parallel so, the camera should always be perfectly level. You can also use LiveView mode to compose images with the LCD Monitor and turn on Grid View so you can align the building lines with the grid on screen.

I think 22megapixels is plenty. Though, you may want more megapixels if you're making really huge prints. Other reasons for more pixels - if you have to crop out a lot of your image -like maybe you want a square image so you'd be wasting a bunch of pixels. Or, if you don't have a shift lens or can't shift enough and you have to do post-process perspective correction - that wastes a lot of pixels too.


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## Marsu42 (Aug 24, 2012)

kia said:


> do you think i must take 5d3 or wait for high megapixel that is coming .



... +1 for 5d2 if 21mp is enough - and use Magic Lantern for automatic unlimited bracketing and/or focus stacking (with an af lens): fuse them with Photomatrix (commercial) or enfuse (free), that'll give you max quality at min noise.


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## 35mm Film (Aug 24, 2012)

Get an old canon f1 and a FD tilt shift. 35mm film is so much more rewarding then digital. Any muppet can use a DSLR but with film you have to think about what your doing and you cant photoshop your way out of a crappy picture so you learn when you take a crap photo. This way you wont be driven crazy with all the hype of whats coming out next like me. ;D Try it if you dont like it you can always sell your gear on evilbay and then get a 5Dmk2, I love mine.


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## dryanparker (Aug 24, 2012)

I've used the following setup with truly outstanding results: 5D2 + TS-E 24/3.5L II + Manfrotto 410 Geared head + LEE Filters + Cable Release

The Geared Head was the big surprise for me. It's a phenomenal piece of equipment for fine-tuning the shifts when shooting architecture. Without a tripod collar for the TS-E, you're mounted to the tripod via the camera body. When shifting, it's really a delicate balance between the attitude of the camera sensor and the amount of shifting to maintain your horizon. Having the Geared Head with knobs for each of the 3 axes is critical.

(As luck would have it, this entire setup is listed for sale, as I'm switching focus. DM me if interested!)


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## acoll123 (Aug 24, 2012)

dryanparker said:


> I've used the following setup with truly outstanding results: 5D2 + TS-E 24/3.5L II + Manfrotto 410 Geared head + LEE Filters + Cable Release
> 
> The Geared Head was the big surprise for me. It's a phenomenal piece of equipment for fine-tuning the shifts when shooting architecture. Without a tripod collar for the TS-E, you're mounted to the tripod via the camera body. When shifting, it's really a delicate balance between the attitude of the camera sensor and the amount of shifting to maintain your horizon. Having the Geared Head with knobs for each of the 3 axes is critical.
> 
> (As luck would have it, this entire setup is listed for sale, as I'm switching focus. DM me if interested!)


Does the geared head help align panoramas?


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## acoll123 (Aug 24, 2012)

Another less expensive option is canon's EF 16-35 lens. I used this before I got a TS-E. Only problems is correcting perspective in post. You need at least a basic knowledge of Photoshop (I use/used Photoshop Elements and it did the job).

The 16-35 is not nearly as sharp but is far more flexible and has AF.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 24, 2012)

kia said:


> HI
> i am an architect and i love taking pictures of buildings ( especially historic buildings) exterior and interior .... for some years i had a power shot s2is which was not bad , but had some serios weakness like lack of wide focal length , or low iso and mp ....
> now i want to change to dslr , so i need advice .... i need high mp and great details but at the same time , i need to take pictures of interior , so i need your advice on 2 subjects .
> first do you think i must go ff ?
> ...



I would go for FF. 5D 3 is a nice camera. I love it. However, your shooting style doesn't seem to fit well with 5D 3. I would go for 5D 2 and use the rest of money for L glass. (5D 2 + 16-35 f2.8 II OR 17-40 f4)


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## Cannon Man (Aug 24, 2012)

I also recommend 5D3 with TS-E 24mm II,

I have had the TS-E 24 II for one year now and i absolutely love it!


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 24, 2012)

LostArk said:


> Pick up a 5D2 and use the money you'd save by skipping the 5D3 to get a 24mm TS-E II.
> 
> /threadover



Oh yeah!


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## dryanparker (Aug 24, 2012)

acoll123 said:


> Does the geared head help align panoramas?



Well no, not properly. Although, I'm sure there's some kind of technique. I think for real panos you need a special head/rail system. (Someone chime in here if I'm wrong. I don't shoot many panos.)

For simple panos, you can use the TS-E with great effect. Simply rotate the base of the TS-E so the Shift becomes a horizontal movement. (You may want to rotate the Tilt movement back to the standard position for downward tilt to extend DOF. Else, you'll have "Swing" movements left and right along the vertical axis.)

With horizontal Shift, you'll have parallax-free movement up to 12-degrees in either direction from center. With some simple stitching or Auto-Align Layers in Ps...you can create a pretty convincing pano!


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## KyleSTL (Aug 24, 2012)

well_dunno said:


> Also, images from a high MP camera is going to take a lot of harddisk place. Unless you are intending to make large prints or some drastic cropping, running out of space on the hard drive will be the only difference you will probably feel between 5Dmk2 and a high MP cam... IMHO anyway...
> 
> Cheers!


mRAW, sRAW. Problem solved. You can always downscale resolution, but it's impossible to add resolution beyond the camera's capabilities.

I agree TS-E lenses are a necessity (especially 17mm and 24mm I or II). Full frame is a definite. I'd say a 5D or 5D Mark II will save you a ton of money so you'll be able to buy both FLs. Good tripod and head is also necessary. 

Additionally, you could add a used T2i, T3i, T4i or 60D in order to acheive 28mm and 38mm TS lenses with the crop factor (at 18mp; cropping the a FF picture from 5D would be 5MP, 5D II would be 8.2MP).


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## art_d (Aug 24, 2012)

I would say yes, you should go FF, if only to be able to use the 24TS-E II 

I shoot architecture professionally and use a 5DII with the 17, 24II, and 45 TSE lenses. I consider the 24TS-E II the most useful lens ever made. In my opinion, it's a wonderful focal length for architecture because it gives you a nice wide angle that still doesn't feel like an exaggerated projection of the space you're shooting. It has practically no barrel distortion, and it is beautifully sharp. The 17mm is very nice, but in practice I very seldom use it on commercial work, even on interiors...but of course if I run into a very constrained space, it's great to have. I would say 75% of my shots are with the 24, 15% with the 45 (mostly for details), and 10% with the 17. 

There is no reason to get a 5DIII for architecture since (in theory) you should be shooting on a tripod at low ISO and using manual focus...under those circumstances a 5DII will give you the same images quality. So save yourself some money there. 

As far as waiting for a higher megapixel model...personally, I don't think you need to wait. The 5DII will perform so much better than the Powershot you're using right now! A hypothetical higher mp FF camera will probably only perform marginally better than a 5DII.

Good luck


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## Rat (Aug 24, 2012)

My understanding is that with a TS-E you can not just correct the shot angle, you can also make sure that e.g a building front you're shooting under an angle with a wide aperture, is completely in focus - because you can simultaneously adjust perspective and focus plane. Is that correct?

Also, I don't quite get why FF is a necessity. Having wide angles is great and I love my 5D3 with anything 17-24'ish on it, but I'd assume a 7D with a TS-E17mm would be about as good for this purpose, especially since you get bigger DOF at similar apertures - which, for architecture, I'd think is good. Only reason I can think of is if you go for prints measured in feet rather than in inches. How am I wrong here?


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## iaind (Aug 24, 2012)

I managed to get a used 24TSE for approx 30% the price of the new 24TSEII. It's a great lens with 5DII.

You can always get the 17TSE later if you prefer.

Good hunting


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## kia (Aug 24, 2012)

hi
thanks very much for your advices .
so i must go FF , with tse -17 and 24 .... . sorry but one more question : do you think having 16-35 mk2 or24-70 is at all nessecery along my 2 tse lenses , or a waste of money ? and one more thing .... my power shot is veryweak on iso performance ( max 400) so most of the time i need a stable surface as a tripod ( because i dont have one ) specially for interiors . so after all this ... do you recommed 5d2( my iso problem) ?
i am looking forward to your precious replies ....


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## dryanparker (Aug 24, 2012)

kia said:


> hi
> thanks very much for your advices .
> so i must go FF , with tse -17 and 24 .... . sorry but one more question : do you think having 16-35 mk2 or24-70 is at all nessecery along my 2 tse lenses , or a waste of money ? and one more thing .... my power shot is veryweak on iso performance ( max 400) so most of the time i need a stable surface as a tripod ( because i dont have one ) specially for interiors . so after all this ... do you recommed 5d2( my iso problem) ?
> i am looking forward to your precious replies ....



Hey Kia, I've sent you a Direct Message. I can help you with most of this if you're interested...


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## poias (Aug 24, 2012)

If you need good IQ, you cannot beat D800. But for that, you have to get Nikon, as Canon is stuck with its 10 year old sensor tech. Since Canon sales are good, they have no incentive to use better sensors. Unless you are stuck to Canon due to financial/equipment commitments, Nikon is the better bet at this time.


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## kennephoto (Aug 24, 2012)

acoll123 said:


> dryanparker said:
> 
> 
> > I've used the following setup with truly outstanding results: 5D2 + TS-E 24/3.5L II + Manfrotto 410 Geared head + LEE Filters + Cable Release
> ...



Hey what's the green cube on the top of the camera? And what do you use for the what I assume is a neutral density filter, I've been dyin tryin to figure out the best approach for ND filters! Btw cool photo!


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## art_d (Aug 24, 2012)

kia said:


> hi
> thanks very much for your advices .
> so i must go FF , with tse -17 and 24 .... . sorry but one more question : do you think having 16-35 mk2 or24-70 is at all nessecery along my 2 tse lenses , or a waste of money ? and one more thing .... my power shot is veryweak on iso performance ( max 400) so most of the time i need a stable surface as a tripod ( because i dont have one ) specially for interiors . so after all this ... do you recommed 5d2( my iso problem) ?
> i am looking forward to your precious replies ....


I would say FF is a must, TSE 24 is a must, and TSE17 is not that important but nice if you can afford it.

I do not think having a zoom lens is necessary for architecture. I would recommend a 45TSE instead if you need something to get tighter for details.

You absolutely should have a tripod. So ISO performance is irrelevant, since you should almost never have a need to go to higher ISO. (Unless you need to be capturing people moving in the spaces with fast shutter speeds, in which case things get more complicated.)


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## art_d (Aug 24, 2012)

Rat said:


> My understanding is that with a TS-E you can not just correct the shot angle, you can also make sure that e.g a building front you're shooting under an angle with a wide aperture, is completely in focus - because you can simultaneously adjust perspective and focus plane. Is that correct?


In theory yes you can adjust the focus plane with tilt. However in architecture shooting it should rarely be necessary because, if shooting on a tripod, you don't really need to shoot at wide aperture. Tilt may be more useful if you have something in the very close foreground you need to be in sharp focus as well as the background. But in reality, stopping down to f/11-f/13 with one of the wide angle TSEs will usually give you very good results with sufficient depth of field.



Rat said:


> Also, I don't quite get why FF is a necessity. Having wide angles is great and I love my 5D3 with anything 17-24'ish on it, but I'd assume a 7D with a TS-E17mm would be about as good for this purpose, especially since you get bigger DOF at similar apertures - which, for architecture, I'd think is good. Only reason I can think of is if you go for prints measured in feet rather than in inches. How am I wrong here?


Theoretically yes, you can shoot the 17 on a crop sensor and get close to a FF with the 24, but, with a 1.6 crop factor the 17 is more like a 27mm. Also, the the 24mm is bit better of a performer. And if getting the ultimate in performance isn't an issue, why bother with the TSEs at all?


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## dryanparker (Aug 24, 2012)

kennephoto said:


> Hey what's the green cube on the top of the camera? And what do you use for the what I assume is a neutral density filter, I've been dyin tryin to figure out the best approach for ND filters! Btw cool photo!



Just a $10 three-axis hot shoe level...also worth its weight in gold for architecture shooting. (Yes, many tripods/heads have spirit levels, but not often in a vertical orientation.)

I use LEE Filters...the 4x6 ones. For the shot I attached, I used a LEE Big Stopper (10-stop ND). Thanks for the shout out!


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## dendowling (Aug 25, 2012)

kia said:


> so i must go FF , with tse -17 and 24 .... . sorry but one more question : do you think having 16-35 mk2 or24-70 is at all nessecery along my 2 tse lenses , or a waste of money ? and one more thing .... my power shot is veryweak on iso performance ( max 400) so most of the time i need a stable surface as a tripod ( because i dont have one ) specially for interiors . so after all this ... do you recommed 5d2( my iso problem) ?



For architecture it's not necessary to have a 16-35 zoom if you have 17 & 24 TSEs. But, you may want to have the short zoom for other reasons - maybe for sports, kids, hiking. So, if you don't want to spend so much money on lenses you might choose to get a 16-35 or a 17-40 instead of a 17TSE if you have other uses for the zoom. Then occasionally when the 24TSE isn't wide enough you can use the wide end zoom for architecture and just be careful to not tilt the camera too much or do minimal perspective correction in post process. 

The EOS 5Ds are good for architecture. The other (more expensive) EOS full frame bodies are geared more for high volume, speed/action shooting - so if you don't need the speed for other reasons there's no need to spend the extra money on other EOS full frames. For architecture, I don't think the 5Dmk3 is necessary, 5Dmk2 is fine. 

But, here are some benefits of 5Dmk3 over mk2:
mk3 has up to 7 frame Auto Bracketing, mk2 has only 3
mk3 does +-5 EV Auto Bracketing, mk2 only +-2
mk3 can use CF or SD/SDHC/SDXC cards, mk2 only uses CF cards
mk3 has 61 AF point sensors, mk2 has 9 points
mk3 shoots continuous 6 fps, mk2 shoots 3.9 fps

The extra auto bracketing on mk3 is cool if you do a ton of HDR. But, it's not too hard to just bracket manually - shoot, dial 3 clicks, shoot, dial 3 clicks, shoot, dial 3 clicks, etc. The extra AF points and fast fps are not necessary for architecture.

If you're going to shoot architecture with a shift lens you have to use a tripod. The shift setting is not going to be accurate while hand-holding. And, often in architecture you want a lot of depth of field so, you use a tight aperture and slow shutter. Also, nice to shoot long shutters to keep the building sharp while letting trees, water, people blur out. 

Yeah, the newer DSLRs will have way better ISO, less noise than the small point&shoot cameras. But again, you'll probably want to shoot architecture in mid 100-400 ISO and need a tripod anyway.


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## KyleSTL (Aug 25, 2012)

poias said:


> If you need good IQ, you cannot beat D800. But for that, you have to get Nikon, as Canon is stuck with its 10 year old sensor tech. Since Canon sales are good, they have no incentive to use better sensors. Unless you are stuck to Canon due to financial/equipment commitments, Nikon is the better bet at this time.



Troll. Do you really feel like 36MP is necessary? Unless your're printing in feet instead of inches, it is completely unnecessary. Also, if you're referring to Nikon's _perceived_ high ISO image quality it is a moot point to an architecture photographer who shoots at native ISO (100) about 95% of the time. 

How about Nikon's mediocre (compared to Canon) and outdated PC-E lenses? What? Nikon doesn't even manufacture a 17mm lens with shift? That's a shame. 

I'm not tryin to be a fanboy, but Canon is clearly the better choice for architectural purposes.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 25, 2012)

KyleSTL said:


> well_dunno said:
> 
> 
> > Also, images from a high MP camera is going to take a lot of harddisk place. Unless you are intending to make large prints or some drastic cropping, running out of space on the hard drive will be the only difference you will probably feel between 5Dmk2 and a high MP cam... IMHO anyway...
> ...



Except high MP cams don't shoot mRAW or sRAW. At least none that I know of. I'm not counting the 5D3, 5D2, or 1Ds3. The D800 definitely doesn't.


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## kia (Aug 25, 2012)

your kindness made me so happy , thanks alot for your advices . and my last question ( i promise ) if i want to take videos ( usually short one ) of architecture for somewhere that still images do not cover the scence , or do not transfer the feel of space .... what do you think i need ? ( i mean extra)


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## kia (Aug 25, 2012)

i forgot to ask . is ts-e 24 or 17 is ok for taking these videos ( they are of sill subjects , i mean buildings)


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## Rat (Aug 25, 2012)

Video is a wholly different animal... I'd say that for all video for which you have to refocus, a dedicated videocamera with continuous autofocus (or perhaps the 650D could do that, not sure) is a better choice. Manually refocusing while moving the camera about is far from trivial, is what I know from my own meager experiments. Also, I don't think the perspective correction of TS-E lenses will hold up if you move the camera about, so you'd be using them as regular primes. Lastly, if I were you, for architecture video I'd research the use of a trolley or a moving tripod or something like that.


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## KyleSTL (Aug 25, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> KyleSTL said:
> 
> 
> > well_dunno said:
> ...


Oh, I get it. The first time I read it I thought that the poster was saying that 5D II or 5D III were high megapixel and were unnecessary. I see what was meant now.


kia said:


> your kindness made me so happy , thanks alot for your advices . and my last question ( i promise ) if i want to take videos ( usually short one ) of architecture for somewhere that still images do not cover the scence , or do not transfer the feel of space .... what do you think i need ? ( i mean extra)


If I read what you're asking, is that you probably want to do some slow, smooth panning shots to better 'feel' the space. I have no direct experience with that, but I would think the 17 and 24 TS-E's would be good for it and require a good, smooth pan head (or geared head) on your tripod and with accurate measuring of the level of the mounting plate. Now if you're talking about follow shots or dolly shots much more equipment will be needed (rails, etc).


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 25, 2012)

KyleSTL said:


> poias said:
> 
> 
> > If you need good IQ, you cannot beat D800. But for that, you have to get Nikon, as Canon is stuck with its 10 year old sensor tech. Since Canon sales are good, they have no incentive to use better sensors. Unless you are stuck to Canon due to financial/equipment commitments, Nikon is the better bet at this time.
> ...



+1


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## jrista (Aug 26, 2012)

To the OP, just a word of warning on the TS-E 24mm f/3.5 L Mark I. The original version of that lens had some considerable uncorrected optical aberrations (namely CA) that affected that lens throughout all apertures (comparison can be seen at TDP: http://the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-TS-E-24mm-f-3.5-L-II-Tilt-Shift-Lens-Review.aspx). The TS-E 24mm f/3.5 L Mark II corrected that deficiency (and additionally provides superb flare control, extremely high resolution at wide apertures (possibly higher than the much-vaunted EF 24mm L II), in addition to all the tilt/shift controls), and is HIGHLY recommended over the Mark I. I would really go so far as to say avoid the TS-E 24 I at all costs, and put your money into the TS-E 24 II...its one of Canon's best lenses. To that end, a 5D II will save you a lot of dough to do just that.


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## poias (Aug 27, 2012)

KyleSTL said:


> poias said:
> 
> 
> > If you need good IQ, you cannot beat D800. But for that, you have to get Nikon, as Canon is stuck with its 10 year old sensor tech. Since Canon sales are good, they have no incentive to use better sensors. Unless you are stuck to Canon due to financial/equipment commitments, Nikon is the better bet at this time.
> ...



Canon's latest sensors are simply outdated in terms of detail resolution. You cannot bring superior images out of mushy low ISO capabilities. And 36mp for landscape/architecture is NOT overkill. LF, which is the ultimate choice of pro landscape/architecture photogs, goes to hundreds of equivalent MPx. And MF backs can yield 60+ MPx.

Basically, 36mpx is not enough when detail is needed. Canon is simply either incapable of bringing something to the market at competitive pricepoints, or they are milking their fanboys for their worth. Either way, it does not look good to impartial customers.


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