# Canon EOS R5 pricing in Europe may have leaked [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 16, 2020)

> The obvious number 1 question I get about the Canon EOS R5 is “how much will it cost?”. We have reported in the past that the EOS R5 will sell below $4000 USD for the body only. Though I haven’t been told the exact price as of yet.
> I have received a Canon price list that looks pretty legitimate but can obviously be easily edited. I can’t post the price list for obvious reasons.
> According to the price list, the Canon EOS R5 will have an MSRP of €4500. Keep in mind pricing in Euro also includes VAT. which can range from 17%-27% depending on the country you’re in. There are also other considerations when looking at pricing in Euro.
> The €4500 Euro pricing would mean that the price in USD will definitely be below $4000 USD. As a comparison, the Canon EOS 5D Mark IV...



Continue reading...


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## WOODS (Jun 16, 2020)

Over £4,000 in the UK then


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## Dmcavoy (Jun 16, 2020)

Still boggles my mind why they don't just include tax in US prices. 

Who wants to be doing calculations in their head constantly when they're shopping.


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## Bob Howland (Jun 16, 2020)

Dmcavoy said:


> Still boggles my mind why they don't just include tax in US prices.
> 
> Who wants to be doing calculations in their head constantly when they're shopping.


In the U.S., sales tax varies from state to state and, in some states, from county to county.


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## Go Wild (Jun 16, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


This was the price I was predicting...I had a small hope that could be a little bit less about 4200€ but my opinion is that this is a fair price for this piece of Gear! This means that the camera will cost in my country 3650€+VAT which is a great price for this camera! Specially because I can buy VAT FREE!  Looking forward! 

Another thing, my retailer did mention that they only are expecting stock in September....But I guess that´s related to retailers and countries, some of them may have "regular stock# earlier. Hope I can get one as soon as possible!


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## Baron_Karza (Jun 16, 2020)

My sources say that Canon EOS R5 pricing in ASIA may have leaked. 
It will be less than US $3999.9901, but my sources will not give me the exact price.


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## slclick (Jun 16, 2020)

Pricing right in line with the rest of the 5 series at launch, why wouldn't that be surprising?


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## slclick (Jun 16, 2020)

Dmcavoy said:


> Still boggles my mind why they don't just include tax in US prices.
> 
> Who wants to be doing calculations in their head constantly when they're shopping.


Well, there would be nearly 50 different prices. (unless of course I missed the point of your post, a couple ways to read it I guess) 



https://files.taxfoundation.org/20200115132659/State-and-Local-Sales-Tax-Rates-2020.pdf


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## danielguillamon (Jun 16, 2020)

Over 5000e in Spain Then...


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## ronaldzimmerman.nl (Jun 16, 2020)

I was hoping for €4200 or less. €4500 is still not bad is the camera is what we think it will be. I think I will wait for the 2021 summer sales. Hopefully I can get it below €4000 then. I have never bought a brand new Canon, but this one might tempt me to do it. The Canon 5D3 I have is not bad, but I see so many advantages in the new mirrorless cameras.


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## carina_r31 (Jun 16, 2020)

I hope Canon will have winter discount again (the last two years, they always had it). Let's see. But a fair price, though, so let's see what the R6 will be like


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## Tony Bennett (Jun 16, 2020)

Hope the $4000 USD is the price, or less. If this comes in at $3499 like previous 5D's then I will get the first one then wait a bit and get my second. 

Like most everyone else (unless you're a Sony user) I'm really lookin forward to the R5. So much so I bought two EOS R's to get used to the differences from the 5DIV.


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## justaCanonuser (Jun 16, 2020)

4.5 k€ in Europe wouldn't surprise me, if it gets finally true. The 5D IV was introduced on the 4k€ price level at least in Germany, 500 € would make the usual plus that comes with a new model.


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## gmon750 (Jun 16, 2020)

carina_r31 said:


> I hope Canon will have winter discount again (the last two years, they always had it). Let's see. But a fair price, though, so let's see what the R6 will be like



Same here. I think by the time the R5 comes out, and goes through all the real-world reviews and opinions, it will be around the holidays by the time I get enough info on it to make the leap from 5DM3.


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## trulandphoto (Jun 16, 2020)

Dmcavoy said:


> Still boggles my mind why they don't just include tax in US prices.
> 
> Who wants to be doing calculations in their head constantly when they're shopping.



Um, because every jurisdiction in the US; state, county, municipality, taxes sales differently. It would be impossible. Retail stores could do it but certainly not Canon. Even with online retailers, where it's shipped makes a difference.


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## edoorn (Jun 16, 2020)

Could make perfect sense. About 9% higher than intro price of the 5d iv in about 4 years, which is roughly inflation correction plus a small markup


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## JustUs7 (Jun 16, 2020)

Dmcavoy said:


> Still boggles my mind why they don't just include tax in US prices.
> 
> Who wants to be doing calculations in their head constantly when they're shopping.



It may be challenging in other areas of the world, but we in the US are known for our excellence in math. So, call it 6% on $3,899 or so, let’s see..... carry the one? No, that’s not it. 

Going with still can’t afford it.


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## Fran Decatta (Jun 16, 2020)

danielguillamon said:


> Over 5000e in Spain Then...



I bet with a friend that will be, at least, 4500€ at launch in spain.... I'm looking for the R6 hahahaha


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## Steve Balcombe (Jun 16, 2020)

For £4000 that EVF better be holographic.


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## Brown (Jun 16, 2020)

Dmcavoy said:


> Still boggles my mind why they don't just include tax in US prices.
> 
> Who wants to be doing calculations in their head constantly when they're shopping.



I just buy from distributors outside of my state so I don't have to pay their extortion. Tax-free commerce is one of the few benefits of online purchasing.


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## IcyBergs (Jun 16, 2020)

If you want to extrapolate from the 5D4 , that would be $3799 ($3813) for the US market MSRP.


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## LensFungus (Jun 16, 2020)

In other news:
Goodbye R5, hello R6!


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## Rule556 (Jun 16, 2020)

Dmcavoy said:


> Still boggles my mind why they don't just include tax in US prices.
> 
> Who wants to be doing calculations in their head constantly when they're shopping.



Well, when tax varies not only state-to-state, but also county-to-county, and city-to-city, it doesn't make sense. Couple with the fact that in certain states it's against the law to advertise prices including tax, and it just doesn't work here.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Jun 16, 2020)

WOODS said:


> Over £4,000 in the UK then



Probably a bit more in anticipation for the £ loosing value. They won't want to come in too low and suddenly the £ is worth less than the €.


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## snappy604 (Jun 16, 2020)

hooo boy I'm going to be broke this year. Wonder how I'll convince the Ms.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Jun 16, 2020)

Dmcavoy said:


> Still boggles my mind why they don't just include tax in US prices.
> 
> Who wants to be doing calculations in their head constantly when they're shopping.



I am having to implement US sales tax for a web store. US sales tax can vary even between two streets and in some examples one house in a street might pay more sale tax. It is really insane how granular it gets. If it was just per state or the whole country it would be easy.


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## Ozarker (Jun 16, 2020)

Bob Howland said:


> In the U.S., sales tax varies from state to state and, in some states, from county to county.


And even city by city.


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## peters (Jun 16, 2020)

For me this question isnt that important. Since the R5 can replace multiple of our photo and video cameras, its a done deal. And thats only given the specs they allready revealed.
Even at 5500€ per body it would be a financial win for me, if I can finaly sell all this mixed equipment and specialized tools I horded over the last years and replace it with just 3 bodys xD


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## PhotoRN86 (Jun 16, 2020)

gmon750 said:


> Same here. I think by the time the R5 comes out, and goes through all the real-world reviews and opinions, it will be around the holidays by the time I get enough info on it to make the leap from 5DM3.



thats the jump I am going from too... the 5d MKiii was amazing all these years and now these mirrorless cameras are so exciting too! My 5d mkIII and lenses were stolen few months ago and insurance covered it all but I used that money to buy 4 RF lenses and a RP and using the left over waiting for the R5... even the RP has been amazing with the RF lenses this is all very exciting!


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## highdesertmesa (Jun 16, 2020)

Anyone thinking they can not pre-order and still find one in stock in the fall/winter is living in a fantasy world. The R5 will be sold out for a looooong time. There are literally years of pent up demand for a Canon with a better sensor and video specs — and they are all going to click “buy” at the same time. Only thing that might dampen enthusiasm for some would be a 39 mp stills resolution instead of 45 mp.


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## ordinaryfilmmaker (Jun 16, 2020)

Thanks for the efforts of staying on top of everything Craig. You make my life easier. I wish the other rumour sites were as reliable as you


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## mrproxy (Jun 16, 2020)

snappy604 said:


> hooo boy I'm going to be broke this year. Wonder how I'll convince the Ms.


I am not planning to tell my wife anything in details. I will tell her that a friend gave me an 5 year old camera that he didnt use at all. Also I will not tell her that I sold my kidney and sill have a dept that I need to pay off in 5 years. I will write it off to Covid19. Fingers crossed that this will work out.


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## amorse (Jun 16, 2020)

This makes some sense. I always figured somewhere between 5D IV launch, and 5D IV launch plus inflation.


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## Avenger 2.0 (Jun 16, 2020)

Hopefully the R6 will be €2500 then


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 16, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> I am having to implement US sales tax for a web store. US sales tax can vary even between two streets and in some examples one house in a street might pay more sale tax. It is really insane how granular it gets. If it was just per state or the whole country it would be easy.


Yes, I had to deal with that, its crazy. You end up needing to pay for a tax calculation service. The other option is to sell on a platform that calculates and collects / remits sales taxes for you. I now only sell on Amazon and ebay, both take care of sales taxes for me.


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## degos (Jun 16, 2020)

That seems to have been well received.

So if all you wealthy ones could now start trading-in your useless old 1DX2 bodies and crash the price of those, please...


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## -pekr- (Jun 16, 2020)

LensFungus said:


> In other news:
> Goodbye R5, hello R6!



That would be an option for us too, if they would not go down to 20mpx. I say, no way. Now I have to think if I sell a house, car, dog, or all of them, to get R5


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## privatebydesign (Jun 16, 2020)

degos said:


> That seems to have been well received.
> 
> So if all you wealthy ones could now start trading-in your useless old 1DX2 bodies and crash the price of those, please...


You can buy my spare so I can get a MkIII...


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## Trey T (Jun 16, 2020)

Too expensive ... need to boycott!!!!

Need to be under $3500 ... lol


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## slclick (Jun 16, 2020)

Just so glad I already have a very good camera, can't imagine wanting to leap from say, a rebel to this. Covid has taken photography down a notch in my myriad hobbies.


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## ronaldzimmerman.nl (Jun 16, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> That would be an option for us too, if they would not go down to 20mpx. I say, no way. Now I have to think if I sell a house, car, dog, or all of them, to get R5


Same.. The R6 would be an option with an updated EOS R sensor. I wouldn’t go down to 20mp. The R5 is a big step up in price, but probably my dream camera.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Jun 16, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Yes, I had to deal with that, its crazy. You end up needing to pay for a tax calculation service. The other option is to sell on a platform that calculates and collects / remits sales taxes for you. I now only sell on Amazon and ebay, both take care of sales taxes for me.



We sell a software product, so it is down to me to do the coding and it does have to be a 3rd party service. I mean in the end it'll end up be sending 2-3 values to a API and getting a number back, but it is still a lot harder than the EU. And then some states want paid monthly or quarterly.. So just giving them the money is a bother.


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## jolyonralph (Jun 16, 2020)

Bob Howland said:


> In the U.S., sales tax varies from state to state and, in some states, from county to county.



Bit of a weak excuse in the shop though. Prices on the sticker should be what you pay.


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## LesC (Jun 16, 2020)

e4500 would equate to £4030 on current exchange rates but going on previous experience Euro/GPB prices are often the same so I wouldn't be surprised at £4499. However, as good as the camera may be, surely Canon are hoping to convert 5D MKIV owners to mirrorless? Bearing in mind you can get the 5D MKIV for £2800 or as little as £1649 for a grey import, are they pitching this too high especially in the current climate? Probably a lot of Pro's with 5D MKIV's or similar are not earning much at the moment. 

At around £3800 I'd have been tempted to sell my EOS R & 6DMKII to help finance it but if well over 4 grand I'll likely wait until grey importers have it...


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## stevelee (Jun 16, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> And even city by city.


And if that city, like mine, crosses county lines, then even within a city.


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## Max TT (Jun 16, 2020)

So R6 between $1999-$2100 then?


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## Steve Balcombe (Jun 16, 2020)

LesC said:


> e4500 would equate to £4030 on current exchange rates but going on previous experience Euro/GPB prices are often the same so I wouldn't be surprised at £4499.


The article at the top of this thread reminds us: "the Canon EOS 5D Mark IV launched at $3499 USD, £3599, and €4129" - so not €1 = £1.


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## Jethro (Jun 16, 2020)

stevelee said:


> And if that city, like mine, crosses county lines, then even within a city.


Wow. In Australia we have a single GST (ie VAT) rate across the country, which has to be added to the retail price shown. Of course, given our geographic position, getting anything here involves adding mega-transport costs - so we end up no better!


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## unfocused (Jun 16, 2020)

degos said:


> That seems to have been well received.
> 
> So if all you wealthy ones could now start trading-in your useless old 1DX2 bodies and crash the price of those, please...


Street Price for *new* 1DxII at CPW is $3,999. Still a better camera and it's available today.


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## Corbettkg (Jun 16, 2020)

Sorry but, €4500 = $5065 according to XE Currency converter. Pretty pricey.


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## SecureGSM (Jun 16, 2020)

Corbettkg said:


> Sorry but, €4500 = $5065 according to XE Currency converter. Pretty pricey.



https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/i...-europe-may-have-leaked-cr2.38684/post-836781


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## wockawocka (Jun 16, 2020)

We're in the midst of a global recession, record unemployment, possible depression coming and lots of people struggling to meet their basic bills yet Canon decides to jump the shark.

Amazing.


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## Gti5notrkt (Jun 17, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> We're in the midst of a global recession, record unemployment, possible depression coming and lots of people struggling to meet their basic bills yet Canon decides to jump the shark.
> 
> Amazing.



Then prioritize basic needs over a discretionary purchase. Canon aren’t in the business of social welfare programs. Don’t like the price, buy something else. Simple.


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## stochasticmotions (Jun 17, 2020)

Can't wait to see the R5 available, our 5DIII is starting to have problems with autofocus tracking with big lenses so my wife has taken over my 5DS which means we only have one usable canon between us for now. I can continue using the Sony cameras but do want to have a camera for my 500 F/4 II big white again soon. That is unless I can somehow get someone to trade me for a big white Sony prime lens and don't have to put out another $4000 USD(8 million Canadian) for a camera this year


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## Quarkcharmed (Jun 17, 2020)

€4500 for the camera, that makes a €100 per megapixel, or 0.01c per pixel.

But if it's only 39mp, it'll definitely be overpriced!!


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## Mr Majestyk (Jun 17, 2020)

Dmcavoy said:


> Still boggles my mind why they don't just include tax in US prices.
> 
> Who wants to be doing calculations in their head constantly when they're shopping.


In Australia it's illegal not to have the actual price customer will pay at the checkout, GST and any other fees and charges have to be inlcuded in the advertised price. Luckily we only have a single Federal tax called the GST, states do not levy sales taxes.


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## Ozarker (Jun 17, 2020)

stevelee said:


> And if that city, like mine, crosses county lines, then even within a city.


Not hard to calculate in the head. Close is good enough.


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## Ozarker (Jun 17, 2020)

mrproxy said:


> I am not planning to tell my wife anything in details. I will tell her that a friend gave me an 5 year old camera that he didnt use at all. Also I will not tell her that I sold my kidney and sill have a dept that I need to pay off in 5 years. I will write it off to Covid19. Fingers crossed that this will work out.


I can sell blood. Still kicking myself for having that vasectomy 30 years ago. That would be more fun.


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## ohm (Jun 17, 2020)

Dmcavoy said:


> Still boggles my mind why they don't just include tax in US prices.
> 
> Who wants to be doing calculations in their head constantly when they're shopping.



I live in Japan. When I first came, prices included taxes. That was when tax was 3%. Tax has risen steadily over the last ten years so that today it is 10%. Many places no longer bother including tax within the price, perhaps because they know it will again rise, or perhaps because they have grown apathetic. The honesty of seeing before and after prices is refreshing as it always gets you to realise how much of your money goes where (at least on the surface).


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## ohm (Jun 17, 2020)

edoorn said:


> Could make perfect sense. About 9% higher than intro price of the 5d iv in about 4 years, which is roughly inflation correction plus a small markup



It is insane that the insane lending that goes on between organizations like the FED make such massive upticks in inflation. Japan obviously doesn't do the same thing. Inflation has occurred, but more like 10% in 20 or 30 years, if that.


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## JustUs7 (Jun 17, 2020)

Mr Majestyk said:


> In Australia it's illegal not to have the actual price customer will pay at the checkout, GST and any other fees and charges have to be inlcuded in the advertised price. Luckily we only have a single Federal tax called the GST, states do not levy sales taxes.



This way, the government can sneak in tax increases with many uninformed public being none the wiser. Despite my earlier joke, I like to know how much of what I’m paying is supporting the government vs what’s going to the business owner. In the US, we bury gas taxes in the price paid at the pump too. I’d like to see taxes delineated clearly.


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## Go Wild (Jun 17, 2020)

peters said:


> For me this question isnt that important. Since the R5 can replace multiple of our photo and video cameras, its a done deal. And thats only given the specs they allready revealed.
> Even at 5500€ per body it would be a financial win for me, if I can finaly sell all this mixed equipment and specialized tools I horded over the last years and replace it with just 3 bodys xD


Well, that´s the big point!! This camera can replace easily 2 or 3 different bodies! So this makes it a very affordable camera! I am planning to sell the Sony Fs 5 mkII, the Canon 1dx mkII and the Sony A7r3. This will fund 2 EOS R5!


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## Ozarker (Jun 17, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> This way, the government can sneak in tax increases with many uninformed public being none the wiser. Despite my earlier joke, I like to know how much of what I’m paying is supporting the government vs what’s going to the business owner. In the US, we bury gas taxes in the price paid at the pump too. I’d like to see taxes delineated clearly.


Tariffs get buried too.


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## dominic_siu (Jun 17, 2020)

The price of R5 in HK should be the cheapest in the world, my guess would be approx. USD3,500


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## slclick (Jun 17, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> Bit of a weak excuse in the shop though. Prices on the sticker should be what you pay.


I'm pretty amazed by this comment unless of course you just emerged from BioSphere 2. Are you truly not aware at the way thing work and have worked?


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## slclick (Jun 17, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Tariffs get buried too.


Is there nothing to comment on in the camera world so we're discussing sticker and taxation issues? Geez, glad I have other interests.


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## Ozarker (Jun 17, 2020)

slclick said:


> Is there nothing to comment on in the camera world so we're discussing sticker and taxation issues? Geez, glad I have other interests.


hahaha. Well, apparently taxation is another interest. ; )


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## slclick (Jun 17, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> hahaha. Well, apparently taxation is another interest. ; )


ooh so exciting


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## Ozarker (Jun 17, 2020)

slclick said:


> ooh so exciting


I was hoping you'd contribute a sardonic haiku about taxes.


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## Toglife_Anthony (Jun 17, 2020)

I'm sticking with my bet...$3899 USD.


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## The3o5FlyGuy (Jun 17, 2020)

Any news on the R6 ?


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## slclick (Jun 17, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I was hoping you'd contribute a sardonic haiku about taxes.



I'd rather make condescending photographer comments...


"So, I hear you're into following tariffs and market fluxuations? What a turnon. Please take my boudoir photos..."

"What's that? You can discuss imaging sensor dimensions and photon sites at great length? I have my clothes off already!"


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## Cryhavoc (Jun 17, 2020)

slclick said:


> Well, there would be nearly 50 different prices. (unless of course I missed the point of your post, a couple ways to read it I guess)
> 
> http://[URL]https://files.taxfoundation.org/20200115132659/State-and-Local-Sales-Tax-Rates-2020.pdf[/URL]


Far more than that. Many states sales tax percentage varies county to county


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## Cryhavoc (Jun 17, 2020)

Brown said:


> I just buy from distributors outside of my state so I don't have to pay their extortion. Tax-free commerce is one of the few benefits of online purchasing.



In what country?


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## Ozarker (Jun 17, 2020)

slclick said:


> I'd rather make condescending photographer comments...
> 
> 
> "So, I hear you're into following tariffs and market fluxuations? What a turnon. Please take my boudoir photos..."
> ...


You're a sexy beast (5)
That sarcastic tone you use (7)
Makes my clothes fall off (5)


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## navastronia (Jun 17, 2020)

I'm still rooting for $3795!


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## tpatana (Jun 17, 2020)

So $3899 or $3999.

I think I'm ok with that. Probably. Especially if they have sweet bundle with 28-70F2.


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## tpatana (Jun 17, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> Well, that´s the big point!! This camera can replace easily 2 or 3 different bodies! So this makes it a very affordable camera! I am planning to sell the Sony Fs 5 mkII, the Canon 1dx mkII and the Sony A7r3. This will fund 2 EOS R5!



I kinda need 1-2 more bodies.... but I'm seriously thinking selling 5D4 since I don't think I will use it much after getting R5. My 1DX would like company, probably 1DX3. So maybe the combo R5+1DX+1DX3 would work?


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## chasingrealness (Jun 17, 2020)

I’m just glad this will fit within the limit of my new Adorama card lol. But really, though, I am bummed they switched from the old credit system at Adorama because for purchases in this price range you used to have 18 months to pay off the balance and now you only get 12.

Those monthly payments are going to be hard to hide from the wife


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## [email protected] (Jun 17, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> We sell a software product, so it is down to me to do the coding and it does have to be a 3rd party service. I mean in the end it'll end up be sending 2-3 values to a API and getting a number back, but it is still a lot harder than the EU. And then some states want paid monthly or quarterly.. So just giving them the money is a bother.



Also a coder here. The code bits aren't hard. We've developed them too. The tough part is the constantly changing mix of taxes from different municipalities, counties, states AND that the taxes apply to some things and not others, again at different rates often within the same jurisdiction. The sheer effort of updating the thousands of jurisdictions and the liability of not getting a change correctly makes it insane. Example: a business client is right on the border of NH and VT. They purchase something for their own clients in NH through our system (no sales tax) and deliver it, along with services to a client of theirs in VT (6 percent sales tax). The town has a "special option" sales tax added on. You wouldn't believe the length of the algorithm that this involves. And it's different by category of goods. And it means that when a tree service firm in NH buys manure fertilizer from multiple sources, it needs to keep it in two different piles in order to keep track of the taxes, because VT employs people for the sole purpose of going around and auditing stuff like this. Which, on thinking about it, must be a punishment of some sort for very badly behaved state employees.


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## melgross (Jun 17, 2020)

Dmcavoy said:


> Still boggles my mind why they don't just include tax in US prices.
> 
> Who wants to be doing calculations in their head constantly when they're shopping.


Because every state has different amounts of taxes, and some (the ones near bankruptcy) have none.in many places it’s illegal to include the tax as part of the price.


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## Eclipsed (Jun 17, 2020)

Dmcavoy said:


> Still boggles my mind why they don't just include tax in US prices.
> 
> Who wants to be doing calculations in their head constantly when they're shopping.



State and local sales tax varies from ZERO to over 10%. Based on where we folks love we can adjust for our selves without being boggled. Moreover, until very recently last year the biggest internet retailers charged collected mo sales tax from their out of state customers.
From what tax nirvana are you coaching us?


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## Eclipsed (Jun 17, 2020)

melgross said:


> Because every state has different amounts of taxes, and some (the ones near bankruptcy) have none.in many places it’s illegal to include the tax as part of the price.


Are you hallucinating that *Alaska*, *Delaware*, *Montana*, *New Hampshire*, and *Oregon* are near bankruptcy?


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## Eclipsed (Jun 17, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> We're in the midst of a global recession, record unemployment, possible depression coming and lots of people struggling to meet their basic bills yet Canon decides to jump the shark.
> 
> Amazing.


Someone can’t afford it.


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## usern4cr (Jun 17, 2020)

Everyone was so stoked that the price of the R5 was "under $4,000 US" !!!
Finally, a new thread with more info on the price of the R5 !!!  
I can't wait to see what the new price is !!!

oh wait, ...
... the 'new' price is ... "under $4,000 US" ? 

Oh man, it's going to take a lot of  before we get to July!


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## David - Sydney (Jun 17, 2020)

Mr Majestyk said:


> In Australia it's illegal not to have the actual price customer will pay at the checkout, GST and any other fees and charges have to be inlcuded in the advertised price. Luckily we only have a single Federal tax called the GST, states do not levy sales taxes.


Well to be picky, the Australian states levy stamp (transfer) duty into certain purchases where land is involved and is clearly separate from the purchase price.
You will see breakdowns in NSW for fire service levy and emergency service levies on insurance premiums.
Excise and importation duties are other buried taxes. We even have tax (GST) on tax (Excise and importation duty) for fuel. Buried fuel taxes represent about 35% of the retail price
State payroll taxes are buried under SG&A costs.
From recent AFR article: "A challenge for the states is that they are responsible for nearly half of Australian general government operating expenditure, but their limited taxation capacity means they collect only about 25 per cent of total revenues.
The so-called vertical fiscal imbalance forces the Commonwealth to pay the states GST and other grants."
Other non-government changes include freight and "handling fees" for tickets amongst other things.


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## Skux (Jun 17, 2020)

"If you have to ask, you can't afford it."


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## Quarkcharmed (Jun 17, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> Other non-government changes include freight and "handling fees" for tickets amongst other things.


But that's important for merchants/resellers. Buyers/customers pay what's on the price tag. The exception is the credit card surcharge (which I rarely encounter) but that's not the tax. Also in certain cases you can get GST back from your purchases.


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## Deleted member 68328 (Jun 17, 2020)

Canon 5D Mark III launch price = 3300 euros
Canon 5D Mark IV launch price = 4100 euros
Canon 5R launch price = 4500€

That's a pretty steep curve imho and not one I enjoy watching.


----------



## Dragon (Jun 17, 2020)

Dmcavoy said:


> Still boggles my mind why they don't just include tax in US prices.
> 
> Who wants to be doing calculations in their head constantly when they're shopping.


Because sales taxes are local, in many states local to cities. And some states have no sales tax.


----------



## Dragon (Jun 17, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> Bit of a weak excuse in the shop though. Prices on the sticker should be what you pay.


You don't understand Americans. We want to know how much tax we are paying and always rebel against buried taxes.


----------



## Cbenedict (Jun 17, 2020)

My bet is still on $3799 USD


----------



## Ralph Conway (Jun 17, 2020)

danielguillamon said:


> Over 5000e in Spain Then...



???


----------



## degos (Jun 17, 2020)

That seems to have been well received.

So if all you wealthy ones could now start trading-in your useless old 1DX2 bodies and crash the price of those, please...


----------



## edoorn (Jun 17, 2020)

yoms said:


> Canon 5D Mark III launch price = 3300 euros
> Canon 5D Mark IV launch price = 4100 euros
> Canon 5R launch price = 4500€
> 
> That's a pretty steep curve imho and not one I enjoy watching.


There’s a thing called inflation and if you’re a working photographer, which most of the target market is, you should be wise enough to make small price increases now and then to keep up.


----------



## Ralph Conway (Jun 17, 2020)

mrproxy said:


> I am not planning to tell my wife anything in details. I will tell her that a friend gave me an 5 year old camera that he didnt use at all. Also I will not tell her that I sold my kidney and sill have a dept that I need to pay off in 5 years. I will write it off to Covid19. Fingers crossed that this will work out.


What about selling both and saving the 5 years dept?


----------



## Ralph Conway (Jun 17, 2020)

Corbettkg said:


> Sorry but, €4500 = $5065 according to XE Currency converter. Pretty pricey.


Yo can not just use a currency converter.


----------



## scottkinfw (Jun 17, 2020)

Well I have my finances in order and I'm ready to pull the trigger. This will now replace my 5DIII and will go with me and my 1DXII. I'm hoping this thing lives up to expectations and the increased MP and better sensor will be awesome. I have a trip planned for September, so an August release will give me time to just start to get familiar with it.

Can't wait.
sek


----------



## briangus (Jun 17, 2020)

Anytime I bought any gear in Singapore I done a quick compare against the listed B&H price.
Most of the times the prices were very close to what B&H were displaying.
My 2nd R was USD30 cheaper in Singapore.
Just hope flights and borders open soon or it will be a long wait.


----------



## edoorn (Jun 17, 2020)

Ralph Conway said:


> Yo can not just use a currency converter.


Indeed, you are talking prices including VAT here, you should take the VAT excluded price as a base. If the R5 would be 4500 over here with our 21%VAT rate, it would be 3700 euro's.


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## csibra (Jun 17, 2020)

4500€ would be okay.


----------



## padam (Jun 17, 2020)

edoorn said:


> There’s a thing called inflation and if you’re a working photographer, which most of the target market is, you should be wise enough to make small price increases now and then to keep up.


It's not just that, with the current situation the transportation cost is also higher and the predicted sales figures are probably lower. (It is higher in the USA, so they can decrease the margin a bit, import it in larger numbers and price it a little better)
Plus, it has several features that no other stills camera offers, so in the introductory months that will carry some extra value as well, Canon's launch prices are never low anyway.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Jun 17, 2020)

Although the specs may justify the expected price, it's just a little too pricey for my budget. This could be the push I need to be a better photographer with the equipment I have. There's always a silver lining, I'll just struggle with the FPS and EVF Lag the R has for fast moving shots. As they say, nature finds a way and so will I until I can save the pennies for the R5.


----------



## freejay (Jun 17, 2020)

Many weeks ago I decided: If it's below 5000€ I'll buy it without hesitation. And hoping that, I preordered it already at my local shop. 

I really wish that more people would buy at their local camera stores! It's mostly not more expensive there - at least from my experience here in Germany with Canon gear: Sometimes the price is even lower than - let's say - on Amazon. Support smaller companies!


----------



## Brown (Jun 17, 2020)

Cryhavoc said:


> In what country?


The United States


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Jun 17, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> Also a coder here. The code bits aren't hard. We've developed them too. The tough part is the constantly changing mix of taxes from different municipalities, counties, states AND that the taxes apply to some things and not others, again at different rates often within the same jurisdiction. The sheer effort of updating the thousands of jurisdictions and the liability of not getting a change correctly makes it insane. Example: a business client is right on the border of NH and VT. They purchase something for their own clients in NH through our system (no sales tax) and deliver it, along with services to a client of theirs in VT (6 percent sales tax). The town has a "special option" sales tax added on. You wouldn't believe the length of the algorithm that this involves. And it's different by category of goods. And it means that when a tree service firm in NH buys manure fertilizer from multiple sources, it needs to keep it in two different piles in order to keep track of the taxes, because VT employs people for the sole purpose of going around and auditing stuff like this. Which, on thinking about it, must be a punishment of some sort for very badly behaved state employees.



My only words are: "Nope". What would be so hard for the USA to have a simple tax rate. The current system looks like it was designed around people never leaving their home town and just didn't evolve .


----------



## zonoskar (Jun 17, 2020)

Dragon said:


> You don't understand Americans. We want to know how much tax we are paying and always rebel against buried taxes.


Nobody understands Americans. 

Anyways, for 4500 euro, I'm going to have to wait for used R5's to hit the market. So my 5Dc has to go on a little longer, unless the R6 is not too crippled or too expensive.


----------



## TMHKR (Jun 17, 2020)

For this price, it better be as good as Canon says it is


----------



## ildyria (Jun 17, 2020)

freejay said:


> I really wish that more people would buy at their local camera stores! It's mostly not more expensive there - at least from my experience here in Germany with Canon gear: Sometimes the price is even lower than - let's say - on Amazon. Support smaller companies!


I would, but in Netherlands that is not the case. Coolblue, kamera express, cameranu.nl... all those are usually significantly more pricier than e.g. Amazon.


----------



## Hanley (Jun 17, 2020)

LesC said:


> At around £3800 I'd have been tempted to sell my EOS R & 6DMKII to help finance it but if well over 4 grand I'll likely wait until grey importers have it...



I'll wait for the reviews and then pull the trigger when the grey importers have it in stock. I've bought all lenses and bodies from grey importers and it's saved me £kkks over the years.


----------



## Go Wild (Jun 17, 2020)

tpatana said:


> I kinda need 1-2 more bodies.... but I'm seriously thinking selling 5D4 since I don't think I will use it much after getting R5. My 1DX would like company, probably 1DX3. So maybe the combo R5+1DX+1DX3 would work?



I believe it can work, it always depends on your use, or your needs! For me, I cannot see myself using the 1dX mkII after having the R5! It will be much more lightweight, it will film better, more MP with the same FPS (even bigger in electronic shutter)...This EOS R5 can easily replace the 1D X series! So I think it´s better to have 2 equal bodies than to have one R5 and one 1D....You gain in room in the backpack, in weight and in photo capabilities...Unless the AF is worse....which I don´t believe....


----------



## koenkooi (Jun 17, 2020)

ildyria said:


> I would, but in Netherlands that is not the case. Coolblue, kamera express, cameranu.nl... all those are usually significantly more pricier than e.g. Amazon.



I think that's due to Canon cracking down on anyone advertising below the MAP it has set. I'm waiting to see if/when the R5 will get included in the bundle offers, the €300 discounts on lenses are very tempting and would soften the €4500 blow a bit. 
If Canon Europe drags their heels like they did with the RP, Amazon would be very tempting or wait for a business trip to our US office. Even with declaring it and paying VAT it will work out to be cheaper than buying it locally.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jun 17, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> I think that's due to Canon cracking down on anyone advertising below the MAP it has set. I'm waiting to see if/when the R5 will get included in the bundle offers, the €300 discounts on lenses are very tempting and would soften the €4500 blow a bit.
> If Canon Europe drags their heels like they did with the RP, Amazon would be very tempting or wait for a business trip to our US office. Even with declaring it and paying VAT it will work out to be cheaper than buying it locally.



Call me superstitious, but every time I get a lens or camera bundled with goodies, the lens or camera is somebody else's freaking return. Every time.


----------



## jam05 (Jun 17, 2020)

Dmcavoy said:


> Still boggles my mind why they don't just include tax in US prices.
> 
> Who wants to be doing calculations in their head constantly when they're shopping.


Let's unboggle your mind. First, there are 5 United States that have NO sales tax. Secondly sales taxes are deductible from federal income taxes and one must itemize them in some instances. Most calculators compute sales taxes. It's 2020. Calculations? Where does one shop in the United States where they must calculate the sales tax in their head? Online it's done for you as soon as you put the item in the cart. There are apps that even calculate local sales taxes automatically. No need for one to do it in their head. Sales taxes are local anyway. And, there are many people, educational and agencies that don't pay sales taxes. They are TAX EXEMPT. Price comparison is done without tax added. Else there isn't any price comparison. How would you compare prices if local taxes are included? Ah then millions of people, business, churches, government agencies, and organizations that don't pay sales taxes would have to subtract a gazzilion taxes for every county in the entire country in their head. Because you wanted it added in.


----------



## Proscribo (Jun 17, 2020)

jam05 said:


> That's what a calculator is for. It's 2020. There are apps that calculate local sales taxes automatically. No need for one to do it in their head. Sales taxes are local anyway. There's no way Canon or any foreign company can predict what local sales taxes would be applied.


Yet they can give a rough euro pricing.


----------



## koenkooi (Jun 17, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Call me superstitious, but every time I get a lens or camera bundled with goodies, the lens or camera is somebody else's freaking return. Every time.


It’s a virtual bundle, you can buy the items up to 90 days apart and Canon itself will give you the cash back.


----------



## jam05 (Jun 17, 2020)

slclick said:


> Well, there would be nearly 50 different prices. (unless of course I missed the point of your post, a couple ways to read it I guess)
> 
> 
> 
> https://files.taxfoundation.org/20200115132659/State-and-Local-Sales-Tax-Rates-2020.pdf


More than that. Taxes are computed by county. LOL.


----------



## jam05 (Jun 17, 2020)

Proscribo said:


> Yet they can give a rough euro pricing.


They? For what? To make one feel good? So they won't know that they are paying more? Who needs a "rough eu price"? That's not even close to zero taxes. 5 states have NO sales taxes at all. And there are millions that don't pay sales taxes either. You're under the assumption that everyone pays sales taxes in the United States. Business wouldn't even be able to compete. Makes no logical sense. Counter intuitive to business. Let's see, Churches = 0, education = 0, government = 0, 501(c) = 0. That's a lot of cameras huh? Not including those millions in those 5 sales tax free states. I think that's why the settlers dumped the British tea in the harbor. LOL


----------



## Proscribo (Jun 17, 2020)

jam05 said:


> They? For what? Do that yourself. That's not even close to zero taxes. 5 states have NO sales taxes at all. And there are millions that don't pay sales taxes either. You're under the assumption that everyone pays sales taxes in the United States. Business wouldn't even be able to compete. Makes no logical sense. Counter intuitive to business. Let's see, Churches = 0, education = 0, government = 0, 501(c) = 0. That's a lot of cameras huh?


What are you talking about?


----------



## bbb34 (Jun 17, 2020)

ildyria said:


> I would, but in Netherlands that is not the case. Coolblue, kamera express, cameranu.nl... all those are usually significantly more pricier than e.g. Amazon.



That is true for most other goods, but according to my own observation, cameras and lenses tend to be slightly cheaper in
the Netherlands than in Germany. I bought most of my equipment at foka.nl. (I'm a German living in NL. I wouldn't hesitate a moment to go shopping "at home")


----------



## LensFungus (Jun 17, 2020)

yoms said:


> Canon 5D Mark III launch price = 3300 euros
> Canon 5D Mark IV launch price = 4100 euros
> Canon 5R launch price = 4500€
> 
> That's a pretty steep curve imho and not one I enjoy watching.


"Listen, grandson, if you don't put me in a nursing home, I will give you 10.000€ so you can buy that Canon R5 Mark 10. And here are 400€ for the two Canon lens caps you need."


----------



## Whowe (Jun 17, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/i...-europe-may-have-leaked-cr2.38684/post-836781


The 4500 Euro includes VAT. You have to subtract that before converting to $.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Jun 17, 2020)

Will be very interesting to see how this predicted price translates into Australian dollars.... It will be very hard to justify if it's over $6000 here


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## tomri (Jun 17, 2020)

bbb34 said:


> That is true for most other goods, but according to my own observation, cameras and lenses tend to be slightly cheaper in
> the Netherlands than in Germany. I bought most of my equipment at foka.nl. (I'm a German living in NL. I wouldn't hesitate a moment to go shopping "at home")


After cameras became special collector's items, prices are high and pretty much the same everywhere. The variance in the price of the EOS R for example is +/-100 EUR across Germany and the Netherlands. Too little to worry about anyway...


----------



## Whowe (Jun 17, 2020)

yoms said:


> Canon 5D Mark III launch price = 3300 euros
> Canon 5D Mark IV launch price = 4100 euros
> Canon 5R launch price = 4500€
> 
> That's a pretty steep curve imho and not one I enjoy watching.


But is that increase due to change in value of the Euro or increased VAT taxes? It does not necessarily mean Canon has increased there price at that same rate. For that evaluation, you have to look at the introduction price at other stable countries.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jun 17, 2020)

Whowe said:


> The 4500 Euro includes VAT. You have to subtract that before converting to $.


It is not how pricing works internationally. the same product can be priced US$3500 in USA and 3500 British pounds in UK. Conversion rate not always applicable here. It’s is a bit more complicated than that. It depends on local cost, size of the market overheads promotional discounting and territory strategy / planing.
it also depends on local market conditions. hope it explains.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jun 17, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Will be very interesting to see how this predicted price translates into Australian dollars.... It will be very hard to justify if it's over $6000 here


Agree. Canon 1dx III being offered at around A$10,500.00 by major retailers.
A$6000 Canon R5 is likely... unfortunately. At least initially. 
I am not buying at this price. Will be on lookout for a mint local copy in about 6 months down the track. Cameras aren’t an investment. I can get by with a slightly used one instead.


----------



## canonnews (Jun 17, 2020)

yoms said:


> Canon 5D Mark III launch price = 3300 euros
> Canon 5D Mark IV launch price = 4100 euros
> Canon 5R launch price = 4500€
> 
> That's a pretty steep curve imho and not one I enjoy watching.


5DsR was 4249 euros.

but it also comes down to currency exchange -- as is the theory with the USD pricing, these are import prices that are highly influenced by the currency exchanges.


----------



## schokuspokus (Jun 17, 2020)

4.500 € - No wonder they keep delaying. They are f%$§&§ crazy. But it goes with their lens prices. Looking somewhere else now.


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## Dest (Jun 17, 2020)

I was hoping for a sub 4k € (VAT included) price. They better include that EF adapter again for that price


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jun 17, 2020)

schokuspokus said:


> 4.500 € - No wonder they keep delaying. They are f%$§&§ crazy. But it goes with their lens prices. Looking somewhere else now.



I am not sure what you expected but that's a reasonable price. At least 4000 was expected, considering the taxes in EU.


----------



## tron (Jun 17, 2020)

Too much for me (at least the EU price). I wouldn't use the video part but IBIS would be welcome. Maybe there will be a price reduction next year.
Canon if you read this please don't make an EOS 5DMkV because I will also have to upgrade my 5DMkIV


----------



## Th0msky (Jun 17, 2020)

What would this mean for the R6? 2600 euro's including VAT?


----------



## wockawocka (Jun 17, 2020)

Eclipsed said:


> Someone can’t afford it.





Gti5notrkt said:


> Then prioritize basic needs over a discretionary purchase. Canon aren’t in the business of social welfare programs. Don’t like the price, buy something else. Simple.



It's not about being able to afford it, it's not about charity.

It's about the business side of things. I don't understand why, considering the current global economic climate, they would position something I'm sure they want everyone to buy at a price point 10% higher than before.

Researcher - 'Millions of people are losing their jobs, affordability is low, most professional photographers have had months worth of jobs cancelled and they've not had an income for months'.

Canon - 'Thanks, in light of this it makes sense to put the price up to $4000 before sales tax'


----------



## magarity (Jun 17, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> We're in the midst of a global recession, record unemployment, possible depression coming and lots of people struggling to meet their basic bills yet Canon decides to jump the shark.
> 
> Amazing.


This is the strangest malapropism I've seen in a long time. How did Canon produce an episode featuring an over the top stunt that really just illustrated their irrelevance?
Did you think that 5 or so years ago when the R series was starting development that Canon should have known there would be a pandemic in 2020?


----------



## canonnews (Jun 17, 2020)

schokuspokus said:


> 4.500 € - No wonder they keep delaying. They are f%$§&§ crazy. But it goes with their lens prices. Looking somewhere else now.


why is that crazy? the A7R IV was 4000 euros at release.


----------



## canonnews (Jun 17, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> It's about the business side of things. I don't understand why, considering the current global economic climate, they would position something I'm sure they want everyone to buy at a price point 10% higher than before.
> 
> Researcher - 'Millions of people are losing their jobs, affordability is low, most professional photographers have had months worth of jobs cancelled and they've not had an income for months'.
> 
> Canon - 'Thanks, in light of this it makes sense to put the price up to $4000 before sales tax'



you answered your own question - it's the business side of things.

Canon isn't a charity - a ton of people have to make a profit off that camera and not just "Canon Inc.".. Canon Japan, Canon Subsidurary, Distribution channels, Marketing companies, and oh yeah, the end retailer that has to actually sell it. Not to mention a sizeable chunk of that is taxes ($900 euros!)

And I'm curious how you would have foreseen Canon to position this - a camera that probably took them 3-4 years to develop.


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 17, 2020)

Dragon said:


> You don't understand Americans. We want to know how much tax we are paying and always rebel against buried taxes.


Yes. We will gripe to no end about taxes and then not complain at all about year after year trillions in deficits... even heralding such spenders as fiscal conservatives. Stupid lot, we are. It seems labels matter to us far more than reality. One team does it and it’s the end of the world. The other team does exactly the same and it’s all fine... because the label. Go team! Puff, pufff, pass.


----------



## jolyonralph (Jun 17, 2020)

slclick said:


> I'm pretty amazed by this comment unless of course you just emerged from BioSphere 2. Are you truly not aware at the way thing work and have worked?



Are you not aware how things work in the rest of the world? I'm not from the US (but a frequent visitor) - and yes, I've been to BioSphere 2 in Arizona!


----------



## edknuff (Jun 17, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


I'm confused. Euro to dollar conversion is currently 1.12 

4500 EUR = 5048.24 USD


----------



## edknuff (Jun 17, 2020)

edknuff said:


> I'm confused. Euro to dollar conversion is currently 1.12
> 
> 4500 EUR = 5048.24 USD


Nevermind, I forget the VAT was included.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Jun 17, 2020)

Awesome, getting closer to pre-order time.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jun 17, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> It’s a virtual bundle, you can buy the items up to 90 days apart and Canon itself will give you the cash back.



Maybe I jumped to conclusions. I mean bundles which include memory cards, batteries, wipes, etc. from online merchants. Almost like the "bling" is to distract from the camera/lens being a repack--but sold as new.


----------



## Dmcavoy (Jun 17, 2020)

Ok guys, chill, think I've got the message now.


----------



## bergstrom (Jun 17, 2020)

so cost prohibitive for the average Joe.


----------



## cayenne (Jun 17, 2020)

Dmcavoy said:


> Still boggles my mind why they don't just include tax in US prices.
> 
> Who wants to be doing calculations in their head constantly when they're shopping.



Very simple....because there is no "one" tax.

Some states do not have sales tax.

Some states have state, city and county/parish taxes....all at different rates.

So, there is no one tax they can add to US prices to have the "full" price for the entire country.

HTH,

cayenne


----------



## cayenne (Jun 17, 2020)

trulandphoto said:


> Um, because every jurisdiction in the US; state, county, municipality, taxes sales differently. It would be impossible. Retail stores could do it but certainly not Canon. Even with online retailers, where it's shipped makes a difference.



And thankfully.....with some shippers you can still get it without taxes being added to it....


----------



## Whowe (Jun 17, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> It is not how pricing works internationally. the same product can be priced US$3500 in USA and 3500 British pounds in UK. Conversion rate not always applicable here. It’s is a bit more complicated than that. It depends on local cost, size of the market overheads promotional discounting and territory strategy / planing.
> it also depends on local market conditions. hope it explains.


I totally agree. I was simply trying to indicate it was not as simple as just using a currency converter and pointed out the largest and easiest to understand difference!


----------



## cayenne (Jun 17, 2020)

Jethro said:


> Wow. In Australia we have a single GST (ie VAT) rate across the country, which has to be added to the retail price shown. Of course, given our geographic position, getting anything here involves adding mega-transport costs - so we end up no better!



Well, in the US, it was set up so that the state is the primary power, you are a member of your state first, then a member of the United States.

The federal govt was set up to, for most purposes be subservient to the states....and used only for things that the states would not be able to manage individually , and those are enumerated in the US Constitution.....things like defense, treaties with other countries, etc.

Now, over the years, the Federal powers have grown (many would argue they have way overstepped their constitutional granted powers and responsibitlies, but that's a debate for another time).....

But even today...the Feds....senate, house of representative and the president.....they cannot pass laws directly telling states what to do.

Example...the Feds could NOT tell the states in the late 80's that they all had to raise their legal drinking age to 21yrs. They could not and still cannot pass a law like that.

However, what they do...is basically extort their way into it. The Feds collect a great deal of tax money from the citizens....and re distribute those funds to the states. So, the way they enforce "laws" like this, is to day to the states.."if you don't play nice and pass these state laws, we will withhold your federal funding".

So the United States is really more what it sounds like...a union of individual states....independent states.

I believe the EU was supposed to be the same sort of model...independent countries, but with a Union for trade and other things...but I don't quite know the history of that.

HTH,

cayenne


----------



## CanoKnight (Jun 17, 2020)

Dmcavoy said:


> Still boggles my mind why they don't just include tax in US prices.
> 
> Who wants to be doing calculations in their head constantly when they're shopping.



They don't because people want to know how much the government extorts from them vs how much the manufacturer actually charges.


----------



## cayenne (Jun 17, 2020)

chasingrealness said:


> I’m just glad this will fit within the limit of my new Adorama card lol. But really, though, I am bummed they switched from the old credit system at Adorama because for purchases in this price range you used to have 18 months to pay off the balance and now you only get 12.
> 
> Those monthly payments are going to be hard to hide from the wife



Did you forget about the "Golden Rule"?

He who makes the most gold....makes the rules!!


----------



## slclick (Jun 17, 2020)

cayenne said:


> And thankfully.....with some shippers you can still get it without taxes being added to it....


That is becoming less and less by the month. Very soon you won't see it any longer. First it was an honor system in your Federal return to pay online taxes and since the response was next to nothing, States are now being forced to collect it at time of sale. Me? I'd rather have better customer service and competitive pricing to steer me to a particular online retailer than the sales tax being the key factor. Ymmv


----------



## AEWest (Jun 17, 2020)

yoms said:


> Canon 5D Mark III launch price = 3300 euros
> Canon 5D Mark IV launch price = 4100 euros
> Canon 5R launch price = 4500€
> 
> That's a pretty steep curve imho and not one I enjoy watching.


Did you factor inflation into the curve? The Mark 3 was introduced in 2012.


----------



## gmon750 (Jun 17, 2020)

PhotoRN86 said:


> thats the jump I am going from too... the 5d MKiii was amazing all these years and now these mirrorless cameras are so exciting too! My 5d mkIII and lenses were stolen few months ago and insurance covered it all but I used that money to buy 4 RF lenses and a RP and using the left over waiting for the R5... even the RP has been amazing with the RF lenses this is all very exciting!


I do a lot of underwater photography, including underwater portraits. In addition to my 5DM3, I'm invested a lot in underwater equipment specifically for that camera which is more expensive than the camera itself.

I still continue to use it. That investment is why I have not upgraded. Whatever new camera I purchase, I will be committing to it. If the R5 is as good in real life as it is on paper, then I'm all in the moment an underwater housing is made for it. It will be my go-to camera for many years.


----------



## wockawocka (Jun 17, 2020)

canonnews said:


> you answered your own question - it's the business side of things.
> 
> Canon isn't a charity - a ton of people have to make a profit off that camera and not just "Canon Inc.".. Canon Japan, Canon Subsidurary, Distribution channels, Marketing companies, and oh yeah, the end retailer that has to actually sell it. Not to mention a sizeable chunk of that is taxes ($900 euros!)
> 
> And I'm curious how you would have foreseen Canon to position this - a camera that probably took them 3-4 years to develop.



True, the end retailer has to sell it. But who will have the cash?

When the 5D4 was launched the cost to retailers (providing they bought at least 10) was about 2000 GBP, the rrp was around 3500 GBP. I discovered this when I bought 2 as part of a group buy from an authorised reseller in the UK with UK stock, collectively we bought aroudn 40 bodies and got pally pally with the company.

So I guess that 2k must have covered and supplied a profit to your suggested "Canon Inc.".. Canon Japan, Canon Subsidurary, Distribution channels, Marketing companies, leaving a wide markup for the end retailers who were dictated to by Canon about what they have to charge for the camera or get struck off the authorised reseller list.

It just seems counterintuitive for a company looking for mass adoption among pros to be charging over 10% more for a body considering the state of the global economy. I guess we'll see if they drop the price or do cashback offers earlier in the product cycle than they usually do to stimulate sales.


----------



## canonnews (Jun 18, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> True, the end retailer has to sell it. But who will have the cash?



many people aren't directly impacted by the covid19 situation. not to mention, a lot have profited from it as well.

most of the people that were living ie: in the USA with a $400-500 emergency backup fund and paycheck to paycheck wouldn't have been interested in the R5 no matter what (as an example).

Even pros, if they are so impacted by it financially, most likely they wouldn't be interested in a new camera regardless of price. it was never going to be a $2000 camera.

and just because this happened - does mean that Canon turns around and gives it away at a loss or what you deem is an acceptable price.

Also, retailers get volume deals as well, to help with promotion, so it really depends on the arrangements between Canon UK and the retailer really. The cost to the retailers - is what Canon charges them - the rest is a payment to the retailer, to I don't know.. run promotions, pay staff, buildings, taxes, that sort of thing. What you are complaining about is not Canon - but the fact that Canon has the unprecedented nerve to want the retailers to make money on the camera.

we don't know what the FOB price is - and lets face it, the UK is an expensive country to do business in.

Canon would have developed the camera - with a price in mind, but in a few months before release is supposed to strip down that price? I can't see any business with long development timelines surviving doing that.


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## subtraho (Jun 18, 2020)

It's probably already been calculated here, seems like if accurate it points toward $3800 USD. 

€4500 minus (est) ~25%ish VAT and an exchange rate of 1.1240 gives (4500 - (4500 * .25)) * 1.1240 = $ 3793.50 

The same calculation (no inflation adjustment) using numbers from the 5DIV: launch price of €4129 and historical exchange rate of 1.1278 (launch date 25 August 2016) gives $3492.51, very close to the actual $3500 launch price.


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## Ozarker (Jun 18, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> It just seems counterintuitive for a company looking for mass adoption among pros to be charging over 10% more for a body considering the state of the global economy.


I just don't understand the idea that the professional photographer/videographer market is some huge sea of adopters that this camera was developed for, or the idea that professional photographers/videographers all have the pockets deep enough, pandemic or no pandemic. Granted, there will be professional photographers/videographers buying the camera. The mass, though, will be people who never shoot for money. Professional photographers range in income from $0 to $gobs just like the rest of us. Being a professional in any field does not automatically mean well heeled.


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## TAF (Jun 18, 2020)

My guess is $3799, because at the present exchange rate 399,999 yen is $3744.

They price in yen, and go from there.


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## monsieur_elegante (Jun 18, 2020)

edknuff said:


> Nevermind, I forget the VAT was included.



You calculated that in the wrong direction; €1.12 Euro = $1 USD, which means €1 Euro = $.89 USD. So €4,500 Euro = $4,005 USD. After accounting for VAT, MSRP in the US will definitely be less than $4000.


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## Jonathan Thill (Jun 18, 2020)

canonnews said:


> many people aren't directly impacted by the covid19 situation. not to mention, a lot have profited from it as well.
> 
> most of the people that were living ie: in the USA with a $400-500 emergency backup fund and paycheck to paycheck wouldn't have been interested in the R5 no matter what (as an example).
> 
> ...


I am in the group that has done well from Covid both in my full time job as a QA developer and in my stock footage\photography portfolio's. People wearing masks, crowds at the beach, disposable gloves on the ground etc... have all sold well.

This latest round of protesting has also been a real boon to my sales. Though I personally do not like being on the streets with so many people and have some moral conflicts about selling photos\video of people so I tend to only submit the more abstract photos where people and places are very hard to identify and it is more about the feel of the image. 

My goal is to be a full time photographer and in order to do that I need to have multiple revenue streams but am am also lucky that my wife and I both have a full time jobs we can do from anywhere and have not really been impacted other than it was hard to find toilet paper for a few weeks. Oh and those empty store shelves photos also sold really well.

I will be getting the R5 even at the $5500 CDN price tag. My EOS R will likely be traded in or sold to help offset the price but I think the price for what it looks like we are getting will be worth it.


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## TAF (Jun 18, 2020)

Skux said:


> "If you have to ask, you can't afford it."



I once had a camera dealer in NYC say that to me. My response was “No, I needed to know to pay you. Goodbye.” The next store down the street was more than happy to take my cash without insipid commentary.


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## Jonathan Thill (Jun 18, 2020)

TAF said:


> I once had a camera dealer in NYC say that to me. My response was “No, I needed to know to pay you. Goodbye.” The next store down the street was more than happy to take my cash without insipid commentary.


Sounds about like what I would do though I am in the group that knows more about the item I am buying than the person trying to sell it to me and I tend to ask nothing other than "where do I pay".

I know how it works, how much it costs and where it is before I leave the house.

My wife "shops" I buy.


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## slclick (Jun 18, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I just don't understand the idea that the professional photographer/videographer market is some huge sea of adopters that this camera was developed for, or the idea that professional photographers/videographers all have the pockets deep enough, pandemic or no pandemic. Granted, there will be professional photographers/videographers buying the camera. The mass, though, will be people who never shoot for money. Professional photographers range in income from $0 to $gobs just like the rest of us. Being a professional in any field does not automatically mean well heeled.


It is pretty much mind blowing the folks here and elsewhere who are proclaiming they need this body NOW in order to make money. Cheese and Rice, if you are a money making shooter, you have gear. Gear that has worked, will work and it's more than likely YOU are the reason you make money, not the latest gadget. No one needs this camera, just wants it, no one. I've got a link to pages and pages of camera bodies at B&H that are available NOW if you are unfortunate in such a way as in theft or disaster.
People new to the craft hate telling people they are new, ego's are fragile things. The cycling world is just as bad only you can't crash a line of photographers with your bad camera skills.


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## tpatana (Jun 18, 2020)

monsieur_elegante said:


> You calculated that in the wrong direction; €1.12 Euro = $1 USD, which means €1 Euro = $.89 USD. So €4,500 Euro = $4,005 USD. After accounting for VAT, MSRP in the US will definitely be less than $4000.



Lol, you calculated the wrong way.

1 USD = 0.89 Euro

Don't trust me?

Feel free to check here:

https://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=1&From=EUR&To=USD

So 4500 euros is >5000 USD. But take 20% VAT, comes to ~$4000, and deduct the europe-import-addition-tax ~5-10%, Usa price should be right around $3800 plus tax.


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## Ozarker (Jun 18, 2020)

slclick said:


> It is pretty much mind blowing the folks here and elsewhere who are proclaiming they need this body NOW in order to make money. Cheese and Rice, if you are a money making shooter, you have gear. Gear that has worked, will work and it's more than likely YOU are the reason you make money, not the latest gadget. No one needs this camera, just wants it, no one. I've got a link to pages and pages of camera bodies at B&H that are available NOW if you are unfortunate in such a way as in theft or disaster.
> People new to the craft hate telling people they are new, ego's are fragile things. The cycling world is just as bad only you can't crash a line of photographers with your bad camera skills.


Please stay on topic. This is a tax thread. You mentioned crashing. The insurance seminar is another thread.


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## slclick (Jun 18, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Please stay on topic. This is a tax thread. You mentioned crashing. The insurance seminar is another thread.


Funny how we've got stable geniuses here who can slice up eyeballs with sensor specs but can't get simple addition with currency conversion!


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## David Hull (Jun 18, 2020)

So the price is 4500 Euro which includes the VAT. But the VAT varies from country to country so does that mean that the actual sell price of the product (i.e. the sales revenue to the seller) is different for each country? That seems strange to me (used to America).


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## Ozarker (Jun 18, 2020)

slclick said:


> Funny how we've got stable geniuses here who can slice up eyeballs with sensor specs but can't get simple addition with currency conversion!


In two to three weeks they won't be so mentally taxed.


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## Ozarker (Jun 18, 2020)

In the United States there are sometimes sales tax holidays. Are there VAT holidays in the VAT countries?


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## canonnews (Jun 18, 2020)

slclick said:


> Funny how we've got stable geniuses here who can slice up eyeballs with sensor specs but can't get simple addition with currency conversion!



It's funny this conversation comes up EVERY time there's a new release.

I mean EVERY. FREAKING. TIME.

You get people going .. omgggggg i'm paying so much in europe whyyyy???!!!!!!????


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## Deleted member 68328 (Jun 18, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Did you factor inflation into the curve? The Mark 3 was introduced in 2012.


Still, that's hell of an inflation. Don't know where you live, but my guess is that those living in Europe and who used to earn 3300 euros in 2012 were most likely not earning 4100€ by the 5D Mark IV release date, nor 4500 euros at the moment


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## AEWest (Jun 18, 2020)

yoms said:


> Still, that's hell of an inflation. Don't know where you live, but my guess is that those living in Europe and who used to earn 3300 euros in 2012 were most likely not earning 4100€ by the 5D Mark IV release date, nor 4500 euros at the moment


True that there is an increase in real price, but the difference is not as great as the nominal prices shown.


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## canonnews (Jun 18, 2020)

yoms said:


> Still, that's hell of an inflation. Don't know where you live, but my guess is that those living in Europe and who used to earn 3300 euros in 2012 were most likely not earning 4100€ by the 5D Mark IV release date, nor 4500 euros at the moment



nope hardly at all but there is yen exchange to be calculated in there as well. 4100 in 2018 = 4220 today.

however, it's hard to say that the R5 does not best the 5D Mark IV in just about every single way except optical viewfinder. It isn't just a "modest" upgrade from the 5D Mark IV.

- higher FPS with mech shutter
- better performing liveview
- 45MP new gen sensor
- eye AF for humans and animals
and we won't even get into the video functions - which the R5 just kicks the 5D Mark IV to the curb and back.

so if the 5D Mark IV is the baseline, essentially you are paying $280 more euros for a camera that kills it in almost every fashion.


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## Ozarker (Jun 18, 2020)

yoms said:


> Still, that's hell of an inflation. Don't know where you live, but my guess is that those living in Europe and who used to earn 3300 euros in 2012 were most likely not earning 4100€ by the 5D Mark IV release date, nor 4500 euros at the moment


Well, there's specification inflation too. Don't forget to calculate that in. People buying the R5 ain't buying a 5D Mark IV, III, or II. Making any kind of price comparison between the bodies and trying to factor in exchange rates and inflation (inflation where? Inflation in Venezuela is different from inflation in the USA or Japan) is just kinda silly. "It's a 5D equivalent!" No it isn't. That's pure horse poop.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 18, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I just don't understand the idea that the professional photographer/videographer market is some huge sea of adopters that this camera was developed for, or the idea that professional photographers/videographers all have the pockets deep enough, pandemic or no pandemic. Granted, there will be professional photographers/videographers buying the camera. The mass, though, will be people who never shoot for money. Professional photographers range in income from $0 to $gobs just like the rest of us. Being a professional in any field does not automatically mean well heeled.


It takes at least 2 years to design and develop a major new camera model. The camera by necessity was designed for the market two years ago. Sales is certainly a unknown, but based on the interest I see, more people than I expect may buy one. The big bucks and profit is in the lenses, but there is plenty of profit generated by early adopters. The Covid-19 situation is definitely a big factor, and if things stay bad or get worse, well, nobody knows. It does seem to be contained in Japan.


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## Jonathan Thill (Jun 18, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> It takes at least 2 years to design and develop a major new camera model. The camera by necessity was designed for the market two years ago. Sales is certainly a unknown, but based on the interest I see, more people than I expect may buy one. The big bucks and profit is in the lenses, but there is plenty of profit generated by early adopters. The Covid-19 situation is definitely a big factor, and if things stay bad or get worse, well, nobody knows. It does seem to be contained in Japan.



I mostly agree with your statement, with one exception. 

It does not take 2 years for NPI, New Product Introduction. 

The company I work for designed, tested and is about to release a slew of covid features including a completely new camera and that took us less then 3 months. Hell the software features only took 8 weeks and we are all working from home. 

My guess is Canon ramped up EOS R5 timeline about 15mins after the less than favorable EOS R reception. The heavy lifting was done with EOS R and RP. The new mount was designed and the general shape and construction was there already. I would also guess tge majority of the minor components will be shared with R, RP, R5 and R6

The EOS R might have been 2 years of development with a small team doing feasibility studies for 6 months to a year and then from TG1 to PR was another 6 months with general release a month or less after a successful PR (Production Run)

I doubt the R5 changes much of the original design from the R. Adding components like duel memory cards is not new tech for Canon. IBIS is new but I think the guys at lens rentals noted after taking the R apart there was room for IBIS in the body so the design likley included it from the start just did not make the R or the RP.

Again all this is a guess based on 20 years of experience in hardware and software development. Hope this is helpful.


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## -pekr- (Jun 18, 2020)

cayenne said:


> And thankfully.....with some shippers you can still get it without taxes being added to it....



Yes, but then you are obliget to pay a VAT locally, at your country, right after the import, not to mention some possible customs duties, or you are simply breaking a law. In CZ, VAT is 21%.


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## canonnews (Jun 18, 2020)

Ramage said:


> I mostly agree with your statement, with one exception.
> 
> It does not take 2 years for NPI, New Product Introduction.



actually canon has stated that from development to rollout it was around 3 years for a 1 series camera. 5 series isn't that far off. IBIS they have been working on for over 3 years now, since 2017, again, documented.

The R would have longer timelines, the mount was being R&D'ed most likely before 2016, however we have for sure documents placing it 2016. which makes it around 2 years or more.

The R5 design is entirely different than the R, IBIS, higher throughput, most likely a far greater heat dissipation issues, etc. The R outside of the mount, and the change of lens protocols, for all purposes, was essentially a 5D with firmware releases augmenting it post-release.

The R system is a serious under taking by Canon - it's obvious, they haven't had any attention to any other product during this time. it's not as if it's an afterthought.


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## koenkooi (Jun 18, 2020)

Ramage said:


> [..]Adding components like duel memory cards is not new tech for Canon.[..]



So when the CFe and SD cards duel, how do they measure out the 20 paces and which card gets to choose the weapons?


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## Kit. (Jun 18, 2020)

tpatana said:


> the europe-import-addition-tax ~5-10%,


0% on digital photo cameras. At the moment, 1.6% on video camera recorders (those that can record video for more than 30 minutes continuously; used to be much higher in the past).


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## SteveC (Jun 18, 2020)

Bob Howland said:


> In the U.S., sales tax varies from state to state and, in some states, from county to county.



Sales tax can even vary WITHIN a county if a city/town imposes one. It can vary from 4+% to almost 9% in my county.


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## tpatana (Jun 18, 2020)

Kit. said:


> 0% on digital photo cameras. At the moment, 1.6% on video camera recorders (those that can record video for more than 30 minutes continuously; used to be much higher in the past).



I didn't mean by the country/state tax institution, I meant by the companies. All electronic manufacturers seems to add 5-10% on electronics just because it's Europe.


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## cayenne (Jun 18, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Yes, but then you are obliget to pay a VAT locally, at your country, right after the import, not to mention some possible customs duties, or you are simply breaking a law. In CZ, VAT is 21%.



UGH...I could NOT deal with that.

My state and local stales tax for purchases here is just a bit shy of 10%...and to me, that's too much.

21%? No freakin' way.....I know better what to do with my money that the government.


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## tpatana (Jun 18, 2020)

cayenne said:


> UGH...I could NOT deal with that.
> 
> My state and local stales tax for purchases here is just a bit shy of 10%...and to me, that's too much.
> 
> 21%? No freakin' way.....I know better what to do with my money that the government.



Finland 24% at the moment. When I was living there, I believe it was 22%.

But that wasn't all. I think they changed the car tax laws, but my time you take the car tax free value and add sales tax (22%), and then you added "special car sales tax" on that combined total (so you paid tax on the tax part too). And guess how much that special car tax was? Depends on car, but good estimate/average was 100%. So take car ~$20k, add 22% and you have 24.4k. Add 100% on that, you get 48.8k.

And people wonder why the average car was old POS in Finland. Taxation was making it impossible for normal people to buy new cars. And don't get me started on income tax brackets... I laugh when people here in Usa complain about tax brackets. And fuel (for cars), around 200-300% tax. There's things I miss from Finland. Taxes is not one of those things.


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## chellm (Jun 18, 2020)

We have been in Photography and Filming since early '30ies.. During those years the very refined material was German, camera bodies and lenses, Rollei, Leica, Linhof, Zeiss and the kind..
Let's do some considerations about pricing..
For a young Photographer willing to start his career or a Professional who wants update his camera set will be needed 2 bodies, 2 flashes, 2 Battery Packs and I would say 3 or 4 lenses NOT including the very costly superzoom f.2,8 or f.4. Therefore we have (assuming USD almost same of EURO)
2 bodies at 4.500 each = 9.000
2 flashes at 500 each = 1.000
2 Battery Packs 300 each = 600
3 L Lenses at average 2.000 each = 6.000
Total around 17.000

Cards will be graciouly offered from dealer..

Here in Europe you can buy a medium down to little City car with that money or give a down deposit to start your mortgage for your house.. This correspondes exactly to the value of Cameras and Lenses value of before WWII or during the Golden Age of Photography during '50ies and '60ies. During those years the decision to be taken was from buying a car and becoming a cab driver or start as photographer / paparazzi / fashion studio..

BUT the camera and lenses were Rollei, Leica, Linhof and later Hasselblad which of all the precision and reliability were just great and we all know..
Canon R 5 - given will be built with perfect precision - is not a *mechanical* Camera, is a complicated software into a shell, BUT we know that Software doesnt cost as assembling perfectly those cameras I named above.
CANON r 5 is badly overpriced
The right price for a tool like that would be around 2.800 in today world economy. I don't ask Canon to be a charity Fund but I dont want my legs pulled


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## jam05 (Jun 18, 2020)

Proscribo said:


> What are you talking about?
> Wrong post? Sorry. Im using my phone and going through all of these adds is a pain to get to the correct post. LOL


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## Kit. (Jun 18, 2020)

chellm said:


> BUT the camera and lenses were Rollei, Leica, Linhof and later Hasselblad which of all the precision and reliability were just great and we all know..
> Canon R 5 - given will be built with perfect precision - is not a *mechanical* Camera, is a complicated software into a shell, BUT we know that Software doesnt cost as assembling perfectly those cameras I named above.


Oh, really?

Which of those Leicas/Rolleis can shoot 12 fps with a *mechanical* shutter?


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## chellm (Jun 19, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Oh, really?
> 
> Which of those Leicas/Rolleis can shoot 12 fps with a *mechanical* shutter?


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## tpatana (Jun 19, 2020)

chellm said:


> -



Yea that was long list of cameras.


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## chellm (Jun 19, 2020)

The sense of my post was NOT on the very special features of today cameras compared to those of past lasting 50 years but on how similar the investment of past is the today one .. Will Canon R 5 last for the next 75 years ?
Anyway certain Canon, Leica R, Nikon and Robot and… had very close to 10 fps motor drive..


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## Kit. (Jun 20, 2020)

chellm said:


> The sense of my post was NOT on the very special features of today cameras compared to those of past


Your post was about "precision mechanics" of some camera brands as opposed to Canon R5's.



chellm said:


> lasting 50 years but on how similar the investment of past is the today one .. Will Canon R 5 last for the next 75 years ?


Personally, I have zero interest in collectibles. I prefer to use a camera for taking pictures with it.


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## BillB (Jun 20, 2020)

Ramage said:


> My guess is Canon ramped up EOS R5 timeline about 15mins after the less than favorable EOS R reception. The heavy lifting was done with EOS R and RP. The new mount was designed and the general shape and construction was there already. I would also guess tge majority of the minor components will be shared with R, RP, R5 and R6


I suspect that the R5 sensor, the DIGIC X processor and IBIS were in development for quite a while. I doubt that the market reception of the R had any effect on R5 development.


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## koenkooi (Jun 20, 2020)

BillB said:


> I suspect that the R5 sensor, the DIGIC X processor and IBIS were in development for quite a while. I doubt that the market reception of the R had any effect on R5 development.



I mostly agree with that, but I keep thinking about the touch bar on the R and the optical joystick on the 1Dx3. Why is the R the only Canon body with a touch bar and why does the 1dx3 have the optical joystick, but not the R5?


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## chellm (Jun 20, 2020)

"Your post was about "precision mechanics" of some camera brands as opposed to Canon R5's."
No, you should read what is written - not what you instead would like to read..
*Canon R5 is insanely overpriced once you set up a minimum of professional set. 2 bodies, 2 flashes and so on..*
This very starting professional set has the same cost of excellent - very long lasting cameras as Leicas, Rolleis, Hasselblads that needed a highly skilled mounting capabilities. Canon R5 is built in much different way - *the high price paid is mostly for the software. Within a 2 year-time Canon R 5 will need a mark 2 update and your investment will be thrown out of windows*. Canon R5 real price as a good tool for photographers and not for uppish - limited income week end amateurs should be around 2500 tax included. When Canon was producing EOS 1 V was also producing EOS 3 and EOS A2e, the 1st cost 65%, the 2nd 45% of EOS 1V and they were excellent cameras, fast AF and long lasting and precise shutter..


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## Kit. (Jun 20, 2020)

chellm said:


> "Your post was about "precision mechanics" of some camera brands as opposed to Canon R5's."
> No, you should read what is written - not what you instead would like to read..


It doesn't work this way.

What is written is a sequence of letters.
What I try to read is some coherent message behind this sequence.
Preferably, somehow based on the observable reality.



chellm said:


> *Canon R5 is insanely overpriced once you set up a minimum of professional set. 2 bodies, 2 flashes and so on..*


I don't know what makes you think so.

Besides, if you don't need all that extra *hardware* functionality of R5, you can get yourself an R6. Which will still be better than the "classic" 5DII, and will likely cost less than that one used to cost at the introduction.



chellm said:


> This very starting professional set has the same cost of excellent - very long lasting cameras as Leicas, Rolleis, Hasselblads that needed a highly skilled mounting capabilities.


I don't understand this claim.

Are you saying that you bring two Rolleis to your photo assignments?

Or do you claim that you could do the job with one Rollei body, and the same job would require two R5 bodies? Can you name that Rollei body? Is it Rolleidoscop or what?

Or are you trying to compare apples and oranges?



chellm said:


> Canon R5 is built in much different way - *the high price paid is mostly for the software.*


What makes you think so? Especially as we have already established that R5 is superior in its mechanical specs to these ones?



chellm said:


> *Within a 2 year-time Canon R 5 will need a mark 2 update and your investment will be thrown out of windows*. Canon R5 real price as a good tool for photographers and not for uppish - limited income week end amateurs should be around 2500 tax included.


What kind of photographic profession are you in if you change your cameras every 2 years?

Is it Sony "ambassador"?

Or is it some sort of private glamour photography where your clients care more about how your camera looks like than how your photos look like?


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## chellm (Jun 21, 2020)

Kit. said:


> It doesn't work this way.
> 
> What is written is a sequence of letters.
> What I try to read is some coherent message behind this sequence.
> ...



1- I like this debate over nothing while you Kit trying to steer the sense of my post -* the cost of a Canon R 5 minimal professional set compared to mechanic camera of past - while the 1st will last until Canon different decision, the 2nd we still have it.. 
BTW Canon seems give me reason when says " R 6 will be priced for a lot more shooters" - *between lines we understand R 5 is highly overpriced..
2 - About the witty joke if I bring 2 Rolleis - you know already the answer - is yes for B&N and Colour and back up Camera
3- Abot changing material every 2 years.. When you have Hasselblad H 6 and Linhof Techno and Canon - and now we look at Fuji medium size you can be sure that every 3 years there will be a new expense in camera, lenses or software. Let me guess - you have only one camera brand and you do everithing with that.. This is fine but versatile photograpers need the right tool
4- About the photography we are in .. you got very close when you tried to be funny mentioning "private glamour.. " - anyway still, industry, fashion and Movies - we dont do weddings - very little news as we instead did in the past

Kit - there is no worse deaf of those who do not want to hear

So tonight you will go to bed with this convictio: Mauro didn't want to argue about how would last Canon R 5 but how expensive is a pro set - same price of very lasting cameras of the past that were made to last almost forever - Will Canon R5 last forever ?


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## tpatana (Jun 21, 2020)

Your comments are still difficult to read and understand.

Am I reading it correctly that you complain R5 being too expensive? In my mind with those features, anything <$4000 is a steal.


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## Cryhavoc (Jun 23, 2020)

Brown said:


> The United States



Unless I am uninformed, tax is collected by every major online retailer now regardless if they have a physical store within your state. Exception may be those states without a state sales tax like Oregon.


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## cayenne (Jun 23, 2020)

Cryhavoc said:


> Unless I am uninformed, tax is collected by every major online retailer now regardless if they have a physical store within your state. Exception may be those states without a state sales tax like Oregon.



No, not always....you can still get stuff with no tax charged by the online dealer, but that window is rapidly shrinking.


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## Hector1970 (Jun 23, 2020)

I hope the R5 is 4500 Euros. That will stop me showing any interest in it. I hope its not around 3500 Euros then I might be tempted.
So for once I want Canon to overprice it. If they can have it for about 2500 Euros in two year time I'll be happy.
I'll have worn out my 5DSR and 5DIV by then.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 25, 2020)

Bob Howland said:


> In the U.S., sales tax varies from state to state and, in some states, from county to county.



It can even vary from one municipality to the next within the same county.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 25, 2020)

Corbettkg said:


> Sorry but, €4500 = $5065 according to XE Currency converter. Pretty pricey.



Except the European price already includes about 20% "sales" tax (They call it VAT).


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## dcm (Jun 25, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> It can even vary from one municipality to the next within the same county.



Or within a municipality due to Special Improvement Districts which tack on an additional sales tax. I pay more tax at the new Target in town than the old Target in the same town/county/state. This is how the city recoups the incentives they give developers to build in some cases.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 25, 2020)

Cryhavoc said:


> Far more than that. Many states sales tax percentage varies county to county



On the other hand, many states have a single rate for online sellers. How what is collected is then divvied up between the municipalities and counties within that state can be a hot political topic.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 25, 2020)

chellm said:


> "Your post was about "precision mechanics" of some camera brands as opposed to Canon R5's."
> No, you should read what is written - not what you instead would like to read..
> *Canon R5 is insanely overpriced once you set up a minimum of professional set. 2 bodies, 2 flashes and so on..*
> This very starting professional set has the same cost of excellent - very long lasting cameras as Leicas, Rolleis, Hasselblads that needed a highly skilled mounting capabilities. Canon R5 is built in much different way - *the high price paid is mostly for the software. Within a 2 year-time Canon R 5 will need a mark 2 update and your investment will be thrown out of windows*. Canon R5 real price as a good tool for photographers and not for uppish - limited income week end amateurs should be around 2500 tax included. When Canon was producing EOS 1 V was also producing EOS 3 and EOS A2e, the 1st cost 65%, the 2nd 45% of EOS 1V and they were excellent cameras, fast AF and long lasting and precise shutter..



It also cost more in film and developing everytime you pressed the shutter button for all of those film cameras. Add the film/developing/printing cost to the film camera in the volume used by a full time pro over two years and you might be surprised at which is cheaper to operate for two years: An EOS 3 (in 2020 dollars/euros/yen/etc.) or an EOS R5! Not to mention that Canon's upper tier bodies are only replaced on a four-year cycle, not two.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 25, 2020)

Cryhavoc said:


> Unless I am uninformed, tax is collected by every major online retailer now regardless if they have a physical store within your state. Exception may be those states without a state sales tax like Oregon.



At last count 39 states had passed laws requiring out of state retailers to charge sales tax for items delivered to their states. That leaves the five states with no sales tax and another six states that haven't yet passed such legislation (but probably will in the near future). This has only become widespread since a relatively recent U.S. Supreme Court decision upheld that states can require out of state retailers to pay sales tax on items shipped to their states.


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## Fischer (Jun 26, 2020)

chellm said:


> We have been in Photography and Filming since early '30ies.. During those years the very refined material was German, camera bodies and lenses, Rollei, Leica, Linhof, Zeiss and the kind..
> Let's do some considerations about pricing..
> For a young Photographer willing to start his career or a Professional who wants update his camera set will be needed 2 bodies, 2 flashes, 2 Battery Packs and I would say 3 or 4 lenses NOT including the very costly superzoom f.2,8 or f.4. Therefore we have (assuming USD almost same of EURO)
> 2 bodies at 4.500 each = 9.000
> ...



Hope you do not give financial advice 

Get one R on sale and 3 to 4 great Sigma/Tamron/Samyang lenses plus led light instead of flash lights and you are into business for 6.000 at the most.

Apart from that photography has very little future. But its a great hobby.


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## jeffa4444 (Jun 26, 2020)

Gti5notrkt said:


> Then prioritize basic needs over a discretionary purchase. Canon aren’t in the business of social welfare programs. Don’t like the price, buy something else. Simple.


Its a supply & demand market. Thats why prices are higher when gear comes out and then drops usually a year in. Get a price wrong though and it can seriously affect sales and ROI that's true whether under or over priced. With falling demand unit prices go up but that in turn puts potential buyers off. If the R5 comes out close to £ 4,500 in the UK then I expect sales of the R6 will be substantially higher irrespective of the rumoured 20MP sensor. That maybe Canon plan all along. The hindering point currently for Canon is the low number of more affordable lenses not everyone wants or can afford to pay between £ 2,600 and over £ 3K for a single lens. The mid-market needs the f4 holy trinity. I never really understood why Canon opted to bring out both the RF28-70mm f2L and the RF24-70mm f2.8L both of which are eye watery expensive. Yes you could argue they have the RF24-105mm f4L but the EF24-70mm f4L is a compact lens and you would assume a RF version would be equally so. Ditto the EF16-35mm f4L IS USM is a truly outstanding lens at a more affordable price whilst still not cheap.


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## koenkooi (Jun 26, 2020)

jeffa4444 said:


> Its a supply & demand market. Thats why prices are higher when gear comes out and then drops usually a year in. Get a price wrong though and it can seriously affect sales and ROI that's true whether under or over priced. With falling demand unit prices go up but that in turn puts potential buyers off. If the R5 comes out close to £ 4,500 in the UK then I expect sales of the R6 will be substantially higher irrespective of the rumoured 20MP sensor. That maybe Canon plan all along. The hindering point currently for Canon is the low number of more affordable lenses not everyone wants or can afford to pay between £ 2,600 and over £ 3K for a single lens. The mid-market needs the f4 holy trinity. I never really understood why Canon opted to bring out both the RF28-70mm f2L and the RF24-70mm f2.8L both of which are eye watery expensive. Yes you could argue they have the RF24-105mm f4L but the EF24-70mm f4L is a compact lens and you would assume a RF version would be equally so. Ditto the EF16-35mm f4L IS USM is a truly outstanding lens at a more affordable price whilst still not cheap.



My guess is that they wanted the wow-factor of the high end and then fill in the low end a bit to gauge the market before committing to the 'budget' L line.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what Canon has done with the RF 70-200mm f/4L in last weeks rumour. I think that will be used to adjust priorities for the lenses still in the pipeline. If the f/4L sells like hot cakes I expect the 15-35-ish f/4L to get moved forward.


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## jeffa4444 (Jun 26, 2020)

If the R5 ships at £ 4500 in the UK deducting 20% VAT makes it £ 3600. At current exchange rate that would make it minus tax $ 4464. If the price in the US is below $ 4K then that's a 11.5% premium over the US.
Exactly what many tech companies do in the UK.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 28, 2020)

jeffa4444 said:


> If the R5 ships at £ 4500 in the UK deducting 20% VAT makes it £ 3600. At current exchange rate that would make it minus tax $ 4464. If the price in the US is below $ 4K then that's a 11.5% premium over the US.
> Exactly what many tech companies do in the UK.



The current exchange rate between the USD and £ means nothing. It's the expectation of what the exchange rates between the USD and yen, and £ and yen , respectively, will do over the next 3-4 years that will determine that component of the total price. 

Another thing Europeans tend to forget is that you get better warranty coverage, by virtue of tougher laws governing retail products, than we do in the U.S. The increased cost to Canon Europe for that has to be paid for as well.


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## tpatana (Jun 28, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The current exchange rate between the USD and £ means nothing. It's the expectation of what the exchange rates between the USD and yen, and £ and yen , respectively, will do over the next 3-4 years that will determine that component of the total price.
> 
> Another thing Europeans tend to forget is that you get better warranty coverage, by virtue of tougher laws governing retail products, than we do in the U.S. The increased cost to Canon Europe for that has to be paid for as well.


Also shipping to Usa is cheaper since because of the earth rotation they get tailwind coming to Usa, whereas ship going to Europe have to navigate against the current.


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## XL+ (Jul 2, 2020)

Still no reliable Information about the pricing, but I was told to expect it above 4699 in Austria.
That would be ~3915€ without taxes here.


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## Cryhavoc (Jul 2, 2020)

seems like it could be cheaper to grab an inexpensive flight to the US, pandemic aside, and purchase the camera hardware here. Or alternatively, in a nearby country that does not have the large price increases over what the camera costs elsewhere.


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## Michael Clark (Jul 7, 2020)

Cryhavoc said:


> seems like it could be cheaper to grab an inexpensive flight to the US, pandemic aside, and purchase the camera hardware here. Or alternatively, in a nearby country that does not have the large price increases over what the camera costs elsewhere.



You'd give up the enhanced higher grade warranty required by European laws, though. You might also have to fly back to where you bought it to have it serviced if needed.


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## LesC (Jul 7, 2020)

https://www.canonwatch.com/french-retailer-lists-canon-eos-r5-price-at-4500-euros/


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