# Canon EOS R Mark II in testing [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Dec 9, 2019)

> We have been told that the follow-up to the original Canon EOS R is now in testing by a small group of Canon professionals.
> The source claims that the Canon EOS R Mark II is slated to be announced ahead of Photokina in May and will closely mimic the ergonomics of the Canon EOS Rs, which is slated to be the next EOS R body announced in the first quarter of 2020.
> The same source has promised some specifications soon.



Continue reading...


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## zonoskar (Dec 9, 2019)

That's really soon after the first edition, like in the EOS-M line.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Dec 9, 2019)

zonoskar said:


> That's really soon after the first edition, like in the EOS-M line.



I tend to believe it, the EOS R seems like it was a stop-gap to what Canon had in mind for a mirrorless body. No knock against the EOS R, it can produce great results, but the ergonomics are hit and miss and it's a recycled image sensor.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Dec 9, 2019)

It makes sense to push out quicker revisions on a young category where there are a lot of new features possible with every passing month. As the product matures I would expect things to settle down into slower release cycles. Heres hoping the Mk2 is a bit bigger and drops SD for CFExpress.


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## Ozarker (Dec 9, 2019)

That's really quick. It will be interesting to see what Canon offers in the Mark II. I will expect a higher price than the R and also for the price of the R to plummet. That's fine with me. There will be some who say that Canon "ripped off" current R owners. No they didn't. People buy what is available and meets their needs knowing what they are getting when they go in. The R is a very competent camera. The R Mark II will be even more capable. Maybe two card slots and IBIS?


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## SV (Dec 9, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> I tend to believe it, the EOS R seems like it was a stop-gap to what Canon had in mind for a mirrorless body. No knock against the EOS R, it can produce great results, but the ergonomics are hit and miss and it's a recycled image sensor.



Agree 100%, the EOS R Mark 1 was likely a quick stop-gap, giving Canon a bit of time to get out a more competitive mirrorless "successor" to the 5D Mark IV, i.e., the rumored EOS R Mark II mentioned in the OP.

Looking forward to seeing the specs on this one!


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## Nelu (Dec 9, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> I tend to believe it, the EOS R seems like it was a stop-gap to what Canon had in mind for a mirrorless body. No knock against the EOS R, it can produce great results, but the ergonomics are hit and miss and it's a recycled image sensor.


I have no problem with either of them (ergonomics and the sensor); I have the EOS R and I used with great joy but what's killing it is the blackout during high speed action shooting. If it wasn't for the EVF blackout and the reduced FPS during tracking priority shooting, I couldn't find anything wrong with the camera and this is from a 5D Mark IV and 1DX user perspective.


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## Stuart (Dec 9, 2019)

Wow, exciting RF start to the year then for Canon - Lots of RF body choice, even a second hand RF market of MK1's upgrading to MK2s and lots of good, if expensive, glass.


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## Fran Decatta (Dec 9, 2019)

They go really fast! Indeed, I think the same as other mates said up here, the first R was a stop-gap, but with decent results. Hope to see soon some of the new specs. Overall... please, double SD card slot


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## Drcampbellicu (Dec 9, 2019)

I think this is all marketing
the R was unimpressive at launch and too many canon apologists spun a tale. Fortunately canon has updates the camera via firmware. That was a must

I am hoping that canon stops playing catch up with new R and it comes out as a 5D Mark replacement. canon can do better and it won’t if people keep making excuses for some of its products of late. It’s clear that mirrorless caught them by surprise. Their lenses remain the absolute cream of the crop!!

I am looking forward to their new high end bodies. Mirrorless Autofocus, IBIs, DR, dual cards along with canons traditional strengths.

cant wait




CanonFanBoy said:


> That's really quick. It will be interesting to see what Canon offers in the Mark II. I will expect a higher price than the R and also for the price of the R to plummet. That's fine with me. There will be some who say that Canon "ripped off" current R owners. No they didn't. People buy what is available and meets their needs knowing what they are getting when they go in. The R is a very competent camera. The R Mark II will be even more capable. Maybe two card slots and IBIS?


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## tron (Dec 9, 2019)

Of course they will make a new one I just got mine!


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## amorse (Dec 9, 2019)

Very interesting, though I find myself a bit sceptical over the timeline, considering that this aggressive of a release timeline seems like it would be out of character for Canon. If this and the other rumors are true, then we'd expect Canon to release a 1DX III, high resolution R body, R mark II, and a 5D V in 2020, let alone the note that they'd have several more RF lenses coming in the same timeframe. I can see the 1D series and the 5D series or R series coming at the same time, but this is stacking up a lot of bodies at the higher end of the spectrum in a row. That seems like a lot of different production lines to start up at once... unless the RII and the high resolution body only differ from each other in the sensor, kind of like the R and Ra? 

Lots to watch for now!


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## -pekr- (Dec 9, 2019)

Is that supposed to be a mirrorless 5DV, or is that too soon for such a camera? I wish (not that it matters) for the new sensor in the cca 30-40mpx area, IBIS, new AF-ON button the same as on 1DX-III, dual card slot and take my money - we need some 5DIV backup ... or replacement


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## bergstrom (Dec 9, 2019)

Including all the firmware updates in the mark 1 , what can the mark2 give us that was missing in the first one?


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## Trout Bum (Dec 9, 2019)

tron said:


> Of course they will make a new one I just got mine!


And mine's on the way...! Oh well, I couldn't wait any longer for full-frame goodness after selling my Mk IV, and would be hesitant to spend what it'll go for at release. No doubt it will be on my wish list, though.


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## edoorn (Dec 9, 2019)

I do know Canon reps agree the R is somewhat of a first attempt, and more designed from a 'we'll take a dslr and take the mirror out' point of view instead of designing from the front up, and lacking in some area's. This was said a few weeks ago during a CPS meeting here in the Netherlands. They agree the R is more in the 6D-line. They said they also know the pressure of Sony is high, and they also said 'of course we can't say a lot, 'cause we'll get fired', but 2020 is going to be very busy and very interesting, and people considering a switch might want to wait a little while.

So, I wouldn't be surprised if we see indeed a truck load of bodies coming our way this year.

A mark 2 could give us: improved ergonomics (for instance, that AF-on button is totally in the wrong place), dual card slots, IBIS, more features (think: multiple AF servo cases like the 5D4), more buttons to assign (think: dedicated buttons for very specific AF cases, like the 5D4). So, plenty to work with I'd say.


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## edoorn (Dec 9, 2019)

Also, this could very well be a more 'pro' body than the current R; think more like a 5D IV (or V?) equivalent. So priced much higher, and therefore not competing with the current R, that will still have it's place and use. Think of the current R as more of a 6D-ish camera then, and two higher 5D-ish mirrorless (one high res, one all round) above. And then next year a speed monster.


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## Joules (Dec 9, 2019)

bergstrom said:


> Including all the firmware updates in the mark 1 , what can the mark2 give us that was missing in the first one?


Besides the obvious IBIS and two card slots, it could gain better weather sealing and a joystick, as well as a different ergonomic. 

And of courses all the good things we saw in the M6 II, namely over twice the throughput / FPS that the R handles, burst crop mode, full frame 4K video, massively improved battery life, even snappier AF... 

The EVF could probably see some improvements as well, as it's performance is linked to the video capabilies and those should go up if it uses a new processor.

All in all, Canon could just round off a ton of corners.


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## danielguillamon (Dec 9, 2019)

Joules said:


> Besides the obvious IBIS and *two card slots, it could gain better weather sealing and a joystick*, as well as a different ergonomic.



enough for me

I dreamt this camera for years


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## Lukas Haupt (Dec 9, 2019)

Yesterday, I ve spoke with some photographer, who is also working in Canon as sales representative and he accidentelly told me, that there will be two new bodies early in 2020 - Rs (high mpx) and some low light beast. But who knows. I m really into it. This would be perfect bopdy for me, as I hate flash photography.


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## Chaitanya (Dec 9, 2019)

Still someway from release I would presume with field testing done to get feedback before finalising the details.


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## NorskHest (Dec 9, 2019)

Gross. I might be alone in this category but I hate that body and ergos, make it feel and operate like a 5d or 1d and I’m sold until then I’ll be stuck with a mirror till I die


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## mpb001 (Dec 9, 2019)

For me, this camera sounds like it would be my upgrade from my 5DIV, with a new sensor and hopefully, IBIS.


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## bitcars (Dec 9, 2019)

This is exciting! Hopefully Canon will nail the ergonomics of R with a "mark II".

Mark I R's ergonomics was the main reason I didn't upgrade. Coming from 5D series I can pick up just about any DSLR's Canon make (1D, 6D, X0D, even rebel) and the controls feel spontaneous when shooting. For the R, I had to "think" about it. It's true that more practice makes it better, but I know my endorphin level peaks higher with a 5D, 6D series camera, and sometimes even the RP feels better.


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## criscokkat (Dec 9, 2019)

I've been saying for a year that the 5dIV replacement would come this year, and a new R mII with it. They and the retailers that sell Canon have very few 'normal release' schedules, but the 5d series is definitely one of them. It'll be interesting to see if there will actually be a EF version of it.

I'm hoping that the firmware isn't any different from the current R, other than certain new features running slower/less fps. That would mean Canon is really in on the new software is just as important as hardware mindset.


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## Tom W (Dec 9, 2019)

bergstrom said:


> Including all the firmware updates in the mark 1 , what can the mark2 give us that was missing in the first one?



a joystick.


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## unfocused (Dec 9, 2019)

Tom W said:


> a joystick.


Not needed. Thumb swipe works better.


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## CJudge (Dec 9, 2019)

Codebunny said:


> It makes sense to push out quicker revisions on a young category where there are a lot of new features possible with every passing month. As the product matures I would expect things to settle down into slower release cycles. Heres hoping the Mk2 is a bit bigger and drops SD for CFExpress.



Out of interest (it’s not my area of expertise), what’s the advantage of CFExpress over modern high speed, high capacity SD cards?


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## slclick (Dec 9, 2019)

It's potential news like this which makes me happy to wait and continue to shoot with my 5D3. The Mk4 and the R are just too much of an incremental bump. It's been 7 years, I can be patient for another long term body and not a stop gap.


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## slclick (Dec 9, 2019)

CJudge said:


> Out of interest (it’s not my area of expertise), what’s the advantage of CFExpress over modern high speed, high capacity SD cards?


For me, just the physicality of the CF cards over the SD shell is important. Speeds may or may not be a factor, it's determined mostly by the personal need for buffering. SD cards are more fragile, that said, in the right hands they can be without issue, YMMV.


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## unfocused (Dec 9, 2019)

Codebunny said:


> ...drops SD for CFExpress...



Not likely. CFExpress will probably be reserved for the 1 series. I would expect two UHS II SD slots.


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## Pape (Dec 9, 2019)

Maybe they just change name plaques of RS to R2 and avoid akward situation where their pro model comes without ibis and without pro quality evf 
And tell they postpone RS to unknown future 
Good way to save face again .


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## jazzytune (Dec 9, 2019)

Lukas Haupt said:


> Yesterday, I ve spoke with some photographer, who is also working in Canon as sales representative and he accidentelly told me, that there will be two new bodies early in 2020 - Rs (high mpx) and some low light beast. But who knows. I m really into it. This would be perfect bopdy for me, as I hate flash photography.


Why do you hate flash photography? Maybe because you haven't given enough time to master it? I mean, it really depends on your needs and the kind of photos you do, but flash photography, when mastered, will give you amazing results. That being said, there are occasions when good performance in low light is crucial and I would love it if Canon released a mirrorless model that can excel in those conditions.


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## jazzytune (Dec 9, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Not needed. Thumb swipe works better.


It might work better (or might be quicker), but in winter time with gloves on, a joystick is needed!


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## reef58 (Dec 9, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Not needed. Thumb swipe works better.



How about with a Zacuto attached?


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## unfocused (Dec 9, 2019)

I would not be surprised to see Canon keep the R Classic in the lineup and drop the price of both the R and the RP. They need to keep production going on the R body anyway, since they just introduced the Ra. 

As an actual R user, the main improvements I would like to see involve autofocus and ergonomics. Specifically, improving the placement and size of the button on the back. The back-button autofocus button is too small and hard to find and it's too easy to accidentally change the focus point selection while shooting. Autofocus often fails to acquire initial focus, wasting time and shots. 

I'd be fine with the current sensor, but don't see that as likely to occur. Instead, I expect Canon to introduce a new full frame sensor that will eventually find its way into the 5D V. It won't be the same sensor as the 1Dx III. 

I don't care about dual card slots, but expect they will include them as so many people have whined about it. 

Joysticks are pretty much redundant on mirrorless and the last think the R body needs is another control taking up real estate on the back.

If they can fix the autofocus issues, I'll sell my 5DIV and go to two R bodies for non-sports shooting.


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## unfocused (Dec 9, 2019)

reef58 said:


> How about with a Zacuto attached?


Canon doesn't design their bodies around third party accessories.


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## unfocused (Dec 9, 2019)

jazzytune said:


> It might work better (or might be quicker), but in winter time with gloves on, a joystick is needed!


Yes, that is a valid point. On the other hand, most gloves are now made to allow for phone swipes.


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## Lukas Haupt (Dec 9, 2019)

jazzytune said:


> Why do you hate flash photography? Maybe because you haven't given enough time to master it? I mean, it really depends on your needs and the kind of photos you do, but flash photography, when mastered, will give you amazing results. That being said, there are occasions when good performance in low light is crucial and I would love it if Canon released a mirrorless model that can excel in those conditions.


Because I m shooting mostly wedding. Flash photography is nice, but in most of my weddings it would ruin the atmosphere. I can shoot with flash, but I don t like it. It adds to photos something, what wasn t there in real life. But it is just my oppinion - I m not saying, that flash photography isn t ok. I just prefer natural light and real atmosphere. That s it


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## Architect1776 (Dec 9, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



This works for me.
Think EOS 650 and 620 were a first effort at EF and were soon upgraded with more capable models. Canon did need to show they could make a mirrorless and do it well and the R said this in spades. And to also have a platform for all the incredible lenses being introduced. Now we will see cameras matching the new optics and it will be quite a ride beyond what people are thinking. Remember all the Canon patents they have. No they will not all materialize in a recognizable form but they are showing what Canon is exploring and doing.


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## jazzytune (Dec 9, 2019)

unfocused said:


> I don't care about dual card slots, but expect they will include them as so many people have whined about it.
> 
> Joysticks are pretty much redundant on mirrorless and the last think the R body needs is another control taking up real estate on the back.



I don't care that much about dual card slots, but if available, I won't complain for sure!

I don't know where you live, but I'm from Montreal, Canada, and in winter we can get very cold weather. So I repeat, in winter time, a joystick would be much appreciated to change the focus point, as it's faster than the directional button.


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## Lee Jay (Dec 9, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



But will it have a usable viewfinder. I've so far found all modern EVFs to be just barely usable, with the least bad the OM-D EM-5 Mark II, and the two Canon's to be below average - about the same as the Sony A7 ii.

I can't believe, after all this time, how bad the EVFs still are.


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## jazzytune (Dec 9, 2019)

Lukas Haupt said:


> Because I m shooting mostly wedding. Flash photography is nice, but in most of my weddings it would ruin the atmosphere. I can shoot with flash, but I don t like it. It adds to photos something, what wasn t there in real life. But it is just my oppinion - I m not saying, that flash photography isn t ok. I just prefer natural light and real atmosphere. That s it


I understand your point and that's why I said that it depends on the type of photography you do... I've done only two weddings so I can't speak of experience.


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## Larsskv (Dec 9, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> But will it have a usable viewfinder. I've so far found all modern EVFs to be just barely usable, with the least bad the OM-D EM-5 Mark II, and the two Canon's to be below average - about the same as the Sony A7 ii.
> 
> I can't believe, after all this time, how bad the EVFs still are.


With a statement like that, you are either a troll, or you don’t have any experience with the EOS R.

The R and Rp does not have the same EVF.

I do agree though, that an OVF is better in some shooting scenarios, when the lighting is very good (such as sunlight).


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## Kit. (Dec 9, 2019)

Lukas Haupt said:


> Yesterday, I ve spoke with some photographer, who is also working in Canon as sales representative and he accidentelly told me, that there will be two new bodies early in 2020 - Rs (high mpx) and some low light beast. But who knows. I m really into it. This would be perfect bopdy for me, as I hate flash photography.


Didn't they tell why they expected Rs to be worse in low light?


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## Lukas Haupt (Dec 9, 2019)

jazzytune said:


> I understand your point and that's why I said that it depends on the type of photography you do... I've done only two weddings so I can't speak of experience.


Agree with that. Nex think is, that usual people are quite nervous, when you re setting strobes during wedding photoshoot. It looks more "professional" and they yre scared, because they re not "proffesional models" and it is not so natural. Not to mention, that flash photography takes more times. And I don t have any spare time during their day


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## Lukas Haupt (Dec 9, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Didn't they tell why they expected Rs to be worse in low light?


No, he immidietelly stop talking about that. I think he shouldn t share. I assume, that low light version would have some low megapixel sensor? Something like sony a7s II? Something around 18 mpx would be perfect for low light shooting. But it is just guess - I think, time will tell


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## Lee Jay (Dec 9, 2019)

Larsskv said:


> With a statement like that, you are either a troll, or you don’t have any experience with the EOS R.



Tried one of each in the store.



> The R and Rp does not have the same EVF.



Both were awful.


> I do agree though, that an OVF is better in some shooting scenarios, when the lighting is very good (such as sunlight).



And when things are moving, or there is high contrast, or where the light is low and you don't want your low-light adaptation destroyed, or where you want to see the scene as it appears to the unaided eye.


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## MadisonMike (Dec 9, 2019)

bergstrom said:


> Including all the firmware updates in the mark 1 , what can the mark2 give us that was missing in the first one?


Besides what others said, how about being able to use the camera for sports. This is mirrorless design and it is useless for sports or action photography. Sure you can time a shot, but in reality, the EOS R and RP were not permitted to compete with the Canon dslr lines. It's a shame since the RF glass is so good.


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## LSXPhotog (Dec 9, 2019)

I think the only thing finalized with the EOS R was the RF-Mount. I love the EOS R, but would love it even more if it were closer to the capabilities of the 5D Mark IV. Let's face it, the only real advantage the EOS R has over the 5D is autofocus and maybe the tilt screen - which is not to everyone's taste.

That said, the EOS R is still fantastic and I really can't wait to see what's next from Canon in this line of cameras. I don't think that the fact Sony just outsold them in Japan has gone unnoticed.


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## LSXPhotog (Dec 9, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Tried one of each in the store.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tried one in the store...now I'm an expert.


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## wockawocka (Dec 9, 2019)

Maybe the R was the pro body / try out, with the Rii being the 5D equivalent.


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## Lee Jay (Dec 9, 2019)

LSXPhotog said:


> Tried one in the store...now I'm an expert.



If it stunk following a walking person in decent light in the store, how will it get better following faster subjects in more difficult conditions?

The store is easy conditions. I don't understand how people think something which stinks in the store will get better when you take it out of the store.


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## GoldWing (Dec 9, 2019)

amorse said:


> Very interesting, though I find myself a bit sceptical over the timeline, considering that this aggressive of a release timeline seems like it would be out of character for Canon. If this and the other rumors are true, then we'd expect Canon to release a 1DX III, high resolution R body, R mark II, and a 5D V in 2020, let alone the note that they'd have several more RF lenses coming in the same timeframe. I can see the 1D series and the 5D series or R series coming at the same time, but this is stacking up a lot of bodies at the higher end of the spectrum in a row. That seems like a lot of different production lines to start up at once... unless the RII and the high resolution body only differ from each other in the sensor, kind of like the R and Ra?
> 
> Lots to watch for now!


Let's face it. The 1DXMKIII will have the greatest impact on the current professional market than any other camera being discussed here.

It will also have the greatest impact on Nikon with their D6 coming to fruition with months of each other.

A professional mirrorless camera with the ergonomics' clarity in an EVF to rival an OVF after a generation of refining dies not exist. And to get everyone to make the substantial investment in all new glass will take a generation of proven efficacy.

The 1DXMKIII will be important as it show everyone what Canon is capable of placing into the next two generations of R and EVEN better!


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## danielguillamon (Dec 9, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Tried one of each in the store.
> 
> Both were awful.
> 
> And when things are moving, or there is high contrast, or where the light is low and you don't want your low-light adaptation destroyed, or where you want to see the scene as it appears to the unaided eye.



Really? ... while most people testing and share the good experience with the eos R (especially with 1.4 firmware), this people "tried one in the store" and were awful.


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## Deleted member 384473 (Dec 9, 2019)

GoldWing said:


> Let's face it. The 1DXMKIII will have the greatest impact on the current professional market than any other camera being discussed here.
> 
> It will also have the greatest impact on Nikon with their D6 coming to fruition with months of each other.
> 
> ...



I really hope that Canon could put out a Mirror-less that could be somewhat on par with the 1DXIII. If the 1DXIII truly does have the best video specs out of Canon's DSLR & Mirrorless lines, then it would deter me from investing in Canon's new line of glass, which is incredibly nice. This may mean I'll just keep with my EF lens and pick up the 1DXIII.


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## Kit. (Dec 9, 2019)

danielguillamon said:


> Really? ... while most people testing and share the good experience with the eos R


Stockholm syndrome  

Really. The current EVFs suck no matter that brand. Maybe they could look better if one could assign different exposure compensation and different picture style to the EVF preview and to the final picture.


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## Del Paso (Dec 9, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> But will it have a usable viewfinder. I've so far found all modern EVFs to be just barely usable, with the least bad the OM-D EM-5 Mark II, and the two Canon's to be below average - about the same as the Sony A7 ii.
> 
> I can't believe, after all this time, how bad the EVFs still are.


I suggest you test the Leica SL 2 or the Panasonic S 1, their EVFs are superb !


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## wickedac (Dec 9, 2019)

Lukas Haupt said:


> Agree with that. Nex think is, that usual people are quite nervous, when you re setting strobes during wedding photoshoot. It looks more "professional" and they yre scared, because they re not "proffesional models" and it is not so natural. Not to mention, that flash photography takes more times. And I don t have any spare time during their day



Weddings are what drove me to learn off-camera flash, I can't imagine shooting a reception or indoor portraits without it. Even outside in daylight it has it's uses. Mastery of flash is essential if you're going to be able to take on any situation and provide professional results. If you feel like you don't have enough time you need to figure that out and work with your clients. In an 8-12 hour day there's always time, and if there's a lot going on that's what second shooters and assistants are for. Just setting up my reception lighting can take a half hour with up to four sandbagged light stands and sometimes another one or two smaller stands with speedlights for little things like cake cutting etc. The clients know I need this time and it's fit into the timeline.


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## bergstrom (Dec 9, 2019)

I did a dance competiton with the 5d3 the other day and my God, the photos werent great, granted crap orange lighting above, but a lot of them were blurry
@ 1/160 with canon 70-200 2.8. I din't want to go too high a speed as I'd need hss and wear out the flash.


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## Quackator (Dec 9, 2019)

bergstrom said:


> Including all the firmware updates in the mark 1 , what can the mark2 give us that was missing in the first one?



5D series ergonomics. Tool size, not toy size.


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## tron (Dec 9, 2019)

Trout Bum said:


> And mine's on the way...! Oh well, I couldn't wait any longer for full-frame goodness after selling my Mk IV, and would be hesitant to spend what it'll go for at release. No doubt it will be on my wish list, though.


I didn't sell my 5DMkIV. I like it too much. And it has 2 cards, GPS, works well with telephotos (I mean I can shoot birds with big teles efficiently although I rarely use it for this). Also it is not practical to exchange lenses some with the ring adaptor some without. And last but not least its battery lasts 4 times the shots it lasts in an EOS R.

There are cases where the EOS R is useful like on a trip where a 5DMkIV is rather big if it had to coexist with another camera with a big white all in the same bag. It is also small enough to take it using a camera case when a DSLR with equivalent lens would require a small bag by itself.


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## Stichus III (Dec 9, 2019)

amorse said:


> Very interesting, though I find myself a bit sceptical over the timeline, considering that this aggressive of a release timeline seems like it would be out of character for Canon.



Canon no longer dominating the full frame market is also out of character.

Releasing new and better bodies is a reasonable reaction to being overtaken by Sony in the full frame market, as Canon's current full frame lineup apparently has not had the desired effect.

As such this rumor is plausible.


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## tron (Dec 9, 2019)

It needs more buttons like the ones that 5D series have to select ISO - Yes I know and I have assigned it to sidebar, still... - and frames per second vs single shot since the multifunction button can be parameterized to something else and the only way that remains in that is the touch screen. For action the Custom positions do not help a lot since we have to see them to select them which slows down the response. In addition a nice capability that is also missing from 90D is to be able to assign to a button a whole camera setup that is activated as long as we press it. It works wonderful on the 5 (and 7DII) series. 

On second thought this is not an action camera so maybe all these do not matter to many users. 

Anyway I have it for a week and I haven't been able to use it but I admit it is a nice little full frame camera.


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## Lee Jay (Dec 9, 2019)

Del Paso said:


> I suggest you test the Leica SL 2 or the Panasonic S 1, their EVFs are superb !



Okay, I didn't try those.

I've tried:


A55
RP
R
Z7
EM10
EM5 ii
A7ii
A7iii
A6300 (by far the worst)
As I said, the EM5ii was easily the best of that bunch, but they're all still really awful. Look at the viewfinder and look and the scene and they literally look nothing alike. Blacks are crushed, whites are blown, the brightness doesn't match, (EVF way too bright in the dark and way too dark in the sun) they're soft (or low-resolution), there are artifacts and blurring when moving, panning or zooming, colors don't come close to matching, etc.


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## navastronia (Dec 9, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> As I said, the EM5ii was easily the best of that bunch, but they're all still really awful. *Look at the viewfinder and look and the scene and they literally look nothing alike. * Blacks are crushed, whites are blown, the brightness doesn't match, (EVF way too bright in the dark and way too dark in the sun) they're soft (or low-resolution), there are artifacts and blurring when moving, panning or zooming, colors don't come close to matching, etc.



That's . . . exactly the point. The viewfinder displays what the sensor is going to capture. If it doesn't look like the scene, adjust your settings until it suits you.


----------



## koenkooi (Dec 9, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Okay, I didn't try those.
> 
> I've tried:
> 
> ...



The brigthness not matching is a feature for me, not a bug. The MP-E65mm at full magnification is really, really dark, the f/2.8 setting results in an effective f/17. Getting a DoF preview at f/11 will give you an effective f/66. Not to mention using 10x magnification in the EVF to ensure you're focussed on the right part of the scene.


----------



## Pixel (Dec 9, 2019)

Off topic, I hate the term "Mark I" its called the EOS R.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 9, 2019)

navastronia said:


> That's . . . exactly the point. The viewfinder displays what the sensor is going to capture. If it doesn't look like the scene, adjust your settings until it suits you.



No. That is exactly false.

The EVF displays what the in-camera JPEG is going to produce from the data the sensor is going to capture. It doesn't display what the sensor captures.

The final image could be many different things depending on processing. In my opinion, the best thing to do processing-wise is to try to produce and image that looks like the real scene looked after human visual-system processing, in most cases. And that's the reason the EVF should look like the scene looks, not like the out-of-camera JPEG.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 9, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> The brigthness not matching is a feature for me, not a bug. The MP-E65mm at full magnification is really, really dark, the f/2.8 setting results in an effective f/17. Getting a DoF preview at f/11 will give you an effective f/66. Not to mention using 10x magnification in the EVF to ensure you're focussed on the right part of the scene.



There are limited reasons why you'd want that, including ND filters. But that should be a selectable option, not the always-on default.


----------



## Kit. (Dec 9, 2019)

navastronia said:


> That's . . . exactly the point. The viewfinder displays what the sensor is going to capture. If it doesn't look like the scene, adjust your settings until it suits you.


Unfortunately not. The viewfinder shows how the captured scene will look in the viewfinder. I'm not supposed to like it this way; I don't expect anyone to watch my pictures through the viewfinder.


----------



## jolyonralph (Dec 9, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Not needed. Thumb swipe works better.



Not with a heavy lens especially when switching between landscape and portrait. I wanted to love the touch-screen focusing, but in real life use it's hard to manage with a larger lens.


----------



## Trout Bum (Dec 9, 2019)

tron said:


> I didn't sell my 5DMkIV. I like it too much. And it has 2 cards, GPS, works well with telephotos (I mean I can shoot birds with big teles efficiently although I rarely use it for this). Also it is not practical to exchange lenses some with the ring adaptor some without. And last but not least its battery lasts 4 times the shots it lasts in an EOS R.


I agree with all that but I had to sell it simply because my aging arthritic hands can no longer deal with a body that heavy and large (I'm not a pro.)


----------



## GoldWing (Dec 9, 2019)

Del Paso said:


> I suggest you test the Leica SL 2 or the Panasonic S 1, their EVFs are superb !



If Leica or Panasonic will offer a 24hour turnaround for repairs, a presence at major events for loaners and repairs like we get at the Olympics and a CPS like program for professionals. I might try one of their cameras. Let me know when they do that! Thank you....


----------



## JuanMa (Dec 9, 2019)

I’ll be in the market for a new one as soon as the EOS R Mark V will be released.


----------



## jeanluc (Dec 9, 2019)

slclick said:


> It's potential news like this which makes me happy to wait and continue to shoot with my 5D3. The Mk4 and the R are just too much of an incremental bump. It's been 7 years, I can be patient for another long term body and not a stop gap.



If you are happy with a 5D3, I suggest you at least consider getting either an R or a 5D4 at current great prices.

The 5D4 and R are a lot better in just about every way than the 5D3 IMHO. Using either for any length of time will likely have you getting rid of the 5D3 pretty quick. Mine ended up in a drawer as a backup. Then after getting the R my 5d4 does that now, except for birds etc or else in cold weather.


----------



## AccipiterQ (Dec 9, 2019)

They're going to be at Mark II on this before they put out a pro-series R body? I really hope it's a simultaneous announcement...


----------



## Eersel (Dec 9, 2019)

43 MP BSI Sensor
IBIS
New DP AF with EYE AF
1x CfExpress Slot / 1x SD UHS II Slot
4:2:2 Internal C-Log

Please for the love of Camera Jesus


----------



## jolyonralph (Dec 9, 2019)

navastronia said:


> That's . . . exactly the point. The viewfinder displays what the sensor is going to capture. If it doesn't look like the scene, adjust your settings until it suits you.



No it doesn't. It shows you the view with the lens at its widest aperture, not at the aperture that you've set, and with the exposure adjusted to simulate the exposure you'll get with the correct aperture. Unless you're using the DOF preview.


----------



## vangelismm (Dec 9, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> The EVF displays what the in-camera JPEG is going to produce from the data the sensor is going to capture. * It doesn't display what the sensor captures.*



Neither the OVF, and we lived without problem.
Eventually you will get used.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 9, 2019)

vangelismm said:


> Neither the OVF,



Right! But it shows me what the scene actually looked like when I shot the picture, which is how I'm going to process the sensor data, which is way better than seeing an entirely different scene through the viewfinder.


----------



## tron (Dec 9, 2019)

Trout Bum said:


> I agree with all that but I had to sell it simply because my aging arthritic hands can no longer deal with a body that heavy and large (I'm not a pro.)


I understand. The best camera is the one we (can) have with us.


----------



## jolyonralph (Dec 9, 2019)

So, I'm pretty sure we'll see the EOS R II announced at the same time as the 5D Mark V, and both will have the same sensor. Probably no more than 32-34mpx, but unlike the current generation I predict it will have:

2x UHS II slots (no CF express)

Probably no IBIS 

A better focus adjust joystick or similar.

Faster frame rate than the EOS R 

Larger raw buffer.

Probably faster DIGIC = faster/more accurate Eye AF.

Full-width 4K video done reasonably well.

Better intelligent auto scene and intelligent focusing. I know a large part of what Canon's Ambassador photographers do is to generate a huge amount of images with metadata that Canon use to crunch for their AI to better understand how and where to focus and the other settings required for generating decent shots in 'full auto' mode. I know it's probably heresy here to say so, but Canon are working on a future where the camera is likely better able to make the right decisions about camera settings and focus points than the photographer in many cases. A lot of the improvements we are likely to see in the EOS R line in the future are to do with software and AI. You'll still be able to set manual mode if you really want to, boomer 

[Note: Pure speculation ahead!]

I don't actually think the EOS R was ever meant to be a production camera for sale. I think it was a hacked together design meant for limited production for testing, for getting the RF lenses out in the field. I think the EOS RP was actually planned to be the first RF mount camera out for the public with the EOS R coming later (and somewhat like the EOS R II specs above) , and I think that two things happened. Firstly the feedback from photographers especially with the 28-70 and 50 lenses told them that a more serious body was essential for launch (I doubt those two lenses would have launched with the RP, they would have come later. We'd have had the 35, the 24-105 and perhaps another design that never made it passed testing). But more importantly, they found out about Nikon's timing for the Z system and decided they had to rush something out before that. This explains why the body doesn't really seem complete. The touchbar is an experiment that didn't really work, the single card slot was obviously going to cause issues, and the use of a dated sensor incapable of full-width 4K was problematic.

It also explains how it was rushed out with essentially beta firmware with features such as Eye AF not finished. 

The EOS R II is the camera we should have had from the beginning, and it's absolutely no surprise it's coming next year.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Dec 9, 2019)

Definitely a bit quicker than expected. I was thinking a touch over two years untill the original was replaced but it looks like canon have really got the jiggy on. The Rmk2, Rs and Rx all coming out in the same year. That will be a big year


----------



## unfocused (Dec 9, 2019)

AccipiterQ said:


> They're going to be at Mark II on this before they put out a pro-series R body? I really hope it's a simultaneous announcement...



You need to define a "pro-series R body." As one who shoots consistently with the R (as well as the 5DIV and 1Dx II) I know that the R is a professional level body for the vast majority of use cases. In most cases, I prefer it to the 5D series and it is only as an action/sports camera that it fails to meet the definition of "pro" in my view. I expect an RII will resolve most of the remaining differences between the 5 series and R series.

If you are thinking of action/sports usage, I would say that I believe the R series has a lot of issues right now that are not easily solvable in my opinion. Many of these are simply related to the nature of mirrorless cameras in general. I can certainly see why Canon would want to resolve those issues before releasing a body that is meant to complement the 1D series. I am not surprised that it could take until 2021 to perfect a sports/action R body. Canon will have a lot riding on the action series of the R and I expect that Canon, being Canon, won't release the body until they have it right.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Dec 9, 2019)

bergstrom said:


> I did a dance competiton with the 5d3 the other day and my God, the photos werent great, granted crap orange lighting above, but a lot of them were blurry
> @ 1/160 with canon 70-200 2.8. I din't want to go too high a speed as I'd need hss and wear out the flash.



I'm yet to see a dancing competition where they allow a flash. It's very disturbing to competitors. Typically you'd shot at ISO 1600-3200 to get at least 1/320 - 1/400 at f2.8. Even if the shots appear slightly underexposed, better use the higher shutter speed and then increase the exposure in postproduction (all must be shot in RAW obviously). With a flash you could potentially go down to ISO 400-800. But I'm not sure what type of flash you'd use to have an even lighting across the whole scene.

The colour cast from the stage lighting can be reduced by simply dialling the saturation down.


----------



## navastronia (Dec 9, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> No. That is exactly false.
> 
> The EVF displays what the in-camera JPEG is going to produce from the data the sensor is going to capture. It doesn't display what the sensor captures.
> 
> The final image could be many different things depending on processing. In my opinion, the best thing to do processing-wise is to try to produce and image that looks like the real scene looked after human visual-system processing, in most cases. And that's the reason the EVF should look like the scene looks, not like the out-of-camera JPEG.



You're splitting hairs - yes, of course the EVF is displaying what the produced JPG will look like. What I'm saying is not controversial. The point of using an EVF is to see approximately what image you are creating, not to see the scene as your eyes view it. If you don't want to see the scene as the camera does, don't use a camera with an EVF. Additionally, your opinion about "human visual-system processing" (mumbo-jumbo) is hogwash - you're trying to put a name to the subjective experience of observing the scene. Your preference for trying to create a scene that looks the way your eyes perceive it is exactly that - just a preference. But some people see better than others in low light, for instance, so this is hardly a translatable or universal way to proceed. It's simply what you like to do.



Kit. said:


> Unfortunately not. The viewfinder shows how the captured scene will look in the viewfinder. I'm not supposed to like it this way; I don't expect anyone to watch my pictures through the viewfinder.



I quoted Lee Jay talking about the EVF using the term "viewfinder." Maybe that's generating confusion? I'm talking about the EVF.



jolyonralph said:


> No it doesn't. It shows you the view with the lens at its widest aperture, not at the aperture that you've set, and with the exposure adjusted to simulate the exposure you'll get with the correct aperture. *Unless you're using the DOF preview.*



Which is why I have "DOF preview" mapped to the * on the back of my RP.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Dec 9, 2019)

CJudge said:


> Out of interest (it’s not my area of expertise), what’s the advantage of CFExpress over modern high speed, high capacity SD cards?



SD is significantly slower, almost 10x slower and CFExpress is getting faster time moves on. It’s like a HDD vs a SSD. Then there is just the desire to be able to share my cards between different cameras.


----------



## slclick (Dec 9, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Tried one of each in the store.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I want an instore discovery experience like that. The Cabela's of Cameras?


----------



## slclick (Dec 9, 2019)

GoldWing said:


> If Leica or Panasonic will offer a 24hour turnaround for repairs, a presence at major events for loaners and repairs like we get at the Olympics and a CPS like program for professionals. I might try one of their cameras. Let me know when they do that! Thank you....


+ menu system, ergonomics and color profile


----------



## Kit. (Dec 9, 2019)

navastronia said:


> I quoted Lee Jay talking about the EVF using the term "viewfinder." Maybe that's generating confusion? I'm talking about the EVF.


I'm also talking about EVF. It's not WYSIWYG, unless the EVF itself is the target media, which it isn't.
The EVF shows less than you get.
The OVF shows more than you get.
I'm fine with the latter, but not with the former.



navastronia said:


> Which is why I have "DOF preview" mapped to the * on the back of my RP.


Maybe the camera manufacturers should make a flatter picture style shown in the EVF by default, showing details in otherwise overexposed and underexposed areas, and applying the "WYSIWYG" picture style when you press "DOF preview".


----------



## Michael Clark (Dec 9, 2019)

unfocused said:


> I would not be surprised to see Canon keep the R Classic in the lineup and drop the price of both the R and the RP. They need to keep production going on the R body anyway, since they just introduced the Ra.



For low volume products such as the Ra, Canon typically stockpiles a supply before release that could last several years before they need to make another production run.


----------



## reef58 (Dec 9, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Canon doesn't design their bodies around third party accessories.



I didn't say they did. You said the joystick was not needed because you can use your thumb. I merely pointed out that is not always the case.


----------



## criscokkat (Dec 9, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> For low volume products such as the Ra, Canon typically stockpiles a supply before release that could last several years before they need to make another production run.


The Ra might have also been a way to make a niche product with a mass of bodies and sensors they already had. It's identical to the R once the filter has been removed. I wouldn't be surprised if the 30x live view zoom makes it to the R firmware sometime.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 9, 2019)

navastronia said:


> You're splitting hairs - yes, of course the EVF is displaying what the produced JPG will look like. What I'm saying is not controversial. The point of using an EVF is to see approximately what image you are creating, not to see the scene as your eyes view it. If you don't want to see the scene as the camera does, don't use a camera with an EVF.



In difficult lighting conditions, the EVF display is nowhere near what the scene looks like. This is an example of that issue that I made a long time ago. The top, EVF view, is the out-of-camera JPEG. Note that this scene is NOT UNDEREXPOSED. There were still blown pixels in the raw data. It's just a high DR scene.


----------



## criscokkat (Dec 9, 2019)

jolyonralph said:


> So, I'm pretty sure we'll see the EOS R II announced at the same time as the 5D Mark V, and both will have the same sensor. Probably no more than 32-34mpx, but unlike the current generation I predict it will have:
> 
> (snipped rest, which I more or less agree with)


I think most of your predictions are probably right, with an fps around 12 with tracking enabled. But I don't think such a slight bump is going to cut the mustard. I suspect the bump will be something around 38 or higher. I just can't see it being the same as most of the aps-c cameras out there.


----------



## Viggo (Dec 9, 2019)

After editing a few old 1dx2 files I really wish, won’t happen, Canon would give the Rii 20mp and cleaner files. I don’t even notice the resolution increase over the 1dx2, but I sure do notice the noise increase...


----------



## Canon1966 (Dec 9, 2019)

2 card slots and IBIS and I would buy. I hope this includes the EF/RF mount they mentioned before or maybe this will be for the hi res model.


----------



## Jethro (Dec 9, 2019)

What it probably means is that a new sensor is coming soon with a new 5Dv. Going forward, I think the EOS R / 5D range will refresh in parallel (while the DSLR market continues to be profitable - ie for a fair while). It's a really smart way of maximising return on development costs by producing bodies for 2 different sub-sections of the market. I personally doubt you'll see dual card slots on the EOS Rii, because they seem to see that as one of the differentiators of the R line from the 5D line. And I wouldn't hold your breath for IBIS in this cycle either - although I have to say it would make sense to introduce it in these cameras before the 1D series.


----------



## navastronia (Dec 9, 2019)

Kit. said:


> I'm also talking about EVF. It's not WYSIWYG, unless the EVF itself is the target media, which it isn't.
> The EVF shows less than you get.
> The OVF shows more than you get.
> I'm fine with the latter, but not with the former.
> ...



Not a bad feature request. As far as the EVF showing less than what you get, you could always make your own super flat picture style style and then shoot with that? That's what many of us do.


----------



## highdesertmesa (Dec 9, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Not needed. Thumb swipe works better.



Try using your thumb with the screen flipped out and your left hand holding the lens. It's stupidly awkward plus it trips the EVF sensor to reach over. The only other option is using the 4-way buttons to move it press by press.


----------



## navastronia (Dec 9, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> In difficult lighting conditions, the EVF display is nowhere near what the scene looks like. This is an example of that issue that I made a long time ago. The top, EVF view, is the out-of-camera JPEG. Note that this scene is NOT UNDEREXPOSED. There were still blown pixels in the raw data. It's just a high DR scene.



When you look up at a bright light source like this ceiling, your pupils (aperture) contract, and when you look at the ground, where it's darker, they widen. This is the effect of having 2 different exposures, much like an HDR photograph that takes multiple images and combines them. Your eyes do this seamlessly. Cameras do not.

Your photo demonstrates that you prefer to expose to preserve the highlights. Indeed, your image is exposed correctly for the highlights, but underexposed for the rest of the scene. When we photograph high DR scenes, we must always choose to expose for the highlights, shadows, or middle, and then compensate in post, like you have done.

RE: your first post that I replied to. In essence, you complain because an EVF doesn't show you the scene as it will look after you edit it, which you claim is the way the scene looked to your eyes. I say cameras don't work like that - in fact, no camera can capture a scene exactly as it looks to your eyes, since cameras and eyes operate differently. An EVF is just a tool, the purpose of which is to show you ~approximately~ what the camera is capturing ~before~ you push it in post. That said, many photographers prefer OVFs, and some likely always will, but the purpose of an EVF is different from the purpose of an OVF.


----------



## highdesertmesa (Dec 9, 2019)

Pixel said:


> Off topic, I hate the term "Mark I" its called the EOS R.



EOS R Classic 

Here we go again.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (Dec 9, 2019)

I disagree 
If the new R is truly a 5D mark replacement then it will be the professional biggest impact 
The 5D mark line sells a ton and is probably by *volume* canons most important pro body




GoldWing said:


> Let's face it. The 1DXMKIII will have the greatest impact on the current professional market than any other camera being discussed here.
> 
> It will also have the greatest impact on Nikon with their D6 coming to fruition with months of each other.
> 
> ...


----------



## Larsskv (Dec 9, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Right! But it shows me what the scene actually looked like when I shot the picture, which is how I'm going to process the sensor data, which is way better than seeing an entirely different scene through the viewfinder.


So you edit your files to best replicate reality as you see it? Nothing wrong with that. I edit the files to my liking. Much more often than not, I find that much more interesting than trying to match reality. For most of my shots, I find the editing process as important as shooting the image in the first place.


----------



## StoicalEtcher (Dec 9, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...
> The source claims that the Canon EOS R Mark II is slated to be announced ahead of Photokina in May and will closely mimic the ergonomics of the Canon EOS Rs,


Apologies if I have missed some facts about what the ergonomics of the Rs are going to be - what do you think this means - any ideas on how the ergo is planned/expected to change (as opposed to speculation about individual desires)?

Cheers

Stoical


----------



## jolyonralph (Dec 9, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> I think most of your predictions are probably right, with an fps around 12 with tracking enabled. But I don't think such a slight bump is going to cut the mustard. I suspect the bump will be something around 38 or higher. I just can't see it being the same as most of the aps-c cameras out there.



No, that's not what the majority of the 5D market buyers are asking for. Higher resolution sensors will be catered for with the 5DSR-class R body that's coming. Sony's A7, A7II and A7III have all had the same 24mpx resolution. If anything, 30mpx on the 5D IV/R is at about the sensible limit for a large percentage of the buyers, and it would probably be more sensible to stick to 30mpx in the next model. The only thing that really could make a difference to this is whether they want to go to a 40mpx sensor to allow for full-width 4k video at 1:2 resampling or pixel binning, but I don't really know enough about video to tell whether that would be a benefit or not.


----------



## jolyonralph (Dec 9, 2019)

Also just to sprinkle some good old pessimism over this, the plans for a EOS R II mean that it's *highly* unlikely that the EOS R is going to get anything new and exciting implemented in firmware. Better, faster Eye AF, Animal Eye AF etc etc, that will all now be marketing opportunities in showing how the next generation is better than the current.

So, bug fixes, security issues and support for future RF lenses, that's about all you'll get in R firmware from now on.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 9, 2019)

navastronia said:


> When you look up at a bright light source like this ceiling, your pupils (aperture) contract, and when you look at the ground, where it's darker, they widen. This is the effect of having 2 different exposures, much like an HDR photograph that takes multiple images and combines them. Your eyes do this seamlessly. Cameras do not.



Eyes can do it because retina sensitivity is local - you can effectively have different ISOs for different parts of the scene.



> Your photo demonstrates that you prefer to expose to preserve the highlights. Indeed, your image is exposed correctly for the highlights, but underexposed for the rest of the scene. When we photograph high DR scenes, we must always choose to expose for the highlights, shadows, or middle, and then compensate in post, like you have done.
> 
> RE: your first post that I replied to. In essence, you complain because an EVF doesn't show you the scene as it will look after you edit it, which you claim is the way the scene looked to your eyes.



Correct.



> I say cameras don't work like that



OVF cameras do.



> - in fact, no camera can capture a scene exactly as it looks to your eyes, since cameras and eyes operate differently.



They can get pretty darned close.



> An EVF is just a tool, the purpose of which is to show you ~approximately~ what the camera is capturing ~before~ you push it in post.



Which, for me, makes it an almost totally useless device.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 9, 2019)

Larsskv said:


> So you edit your files to best replicate reality as you see it?



Usually.




> Nothing wrong with that. I edit the files to my liking. Much more often than not, I find that much more interesting than trying to match reality. For most of my shots, I find the editing process as important as shooting the image in the first place.



So do I.


----------



## amorse (Dec 9, 2019)

Stichus III said:


> Canon no longer dominating the full frame market is also out of character.
> 
> Releasing new and better bodies is a reasonable reaction to being overtaken by Sony in the full frame market, as Canon's current full frame lineup apparently has not had the desired effect.
> 
> As such this rumor is plausible.


No doubt it is plausible, all things considered, but for them to release all those bodies in short order they'd likely have been planning to do this for some time. Sony was only announced to have taken the full frame lead in the last week, though I think there were rumors of back and forth from ~ a year ago. I guess we'll know soon enough!


----------



## Kit. (Dec 9, 2019)

navastronia said:


> Not a bad feature request. As far as the EVF showing less than what you get, you could always make your own super flat picture style style and then shoot with that? That's what many of us do.


The problem with that (apart from unusable in-camera jpegs) is that I would like to see what I would be losing in highlights. I can do it over the OVF, but for the EVF it would mean underexposing during preview. Indicators like zebras don't show _what_ is lost, they only show _where_.


----------



## Act444 (Dec 9, 2019)

Regardless of when it ends up coming, this is the camera I'm keeping a close eye on - and also, how it will compare to a possible 5DV.


----------



## navastronia (Dec 9, 2019)

Kit. said:


> The problem with that (apart from unusable in-camera jpegs) is that I would like to see what I would be losing in highlights. I can do it over the OVF, but for the EVF it would mean underexposing during preview. Indicators like zebras don't show _what_ is lost, they only show _where_.



Yeah, I agree 100%. Since I only shoot JPGs for backup, this has not concerned me. Indeed, with OVF, you can spot meter and find out what you're blowing out while still being able to see it.

---

*"I say cameras don't work like that"*



Lee Jay said:


> OVF cameras do.



Yeah, but they don't, though. The camera doesn't operate like your eyes do even if it has an OVF because the OVF doesn't have anything to do with the camera's exposure - it's just how YOU can see the scene in order to aim the camera and take a photo using the camera's sensor.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 9, 2019)

navastronia said:


> *"I say cameras don't work like that"*
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but they don't, though. The camera doesn't operate like your eyes do even if it has an OVF because the OVF doesn't have anything to do with the camera's exposure - it's just how YOU can see the scene in order to aim the camera and take a photo using the camera's sensor.



The viewfinder sees what the eye sees, and the camera captures enough data to replicate that, in most cases.


----------



## M. D. Vaden of Oregon (Dec 9, 2019)

SV said:


> Agree 100%, the EOS R Mark 1 was likely a quick stop-gap, giving Canon a bit of time to get out a more competitive mirrorless "successor" to the 5D Mark IV, i.e., the rumored EOS R Mark II mentioned in the OP.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing the specs on this one!



More than a stop gap really. 

The EOS R is some regards, out performs the 5D mk iv, is lighter than all the 5D series, but also provided a tool to show how superb the RF glass is, and how the RF body can use EF glass even better than the EF bodies.

More of an essential single building block.


----------



## GoldWing (Dec 9, 2019)

Drcampbellicu said:


> I disagree
> If the new R is truly a 5D mark replacement then it will be the professional biggest impact
> The 5D mark line sells a ton and is probably by *volume* canons most important pro body


The 5D is a good general market camera. Our rep has them at $1535 a copy now with the our Corp discount. 

Our needs are a bit more demanding but the 5D is a great money maker.

Our hope is that the 1DXMKIII will provide a 3year window beyond Tokyo with a budget of $8,000 per copy to include two 256 Express Cards and spare batteries and case.

The 1DXII series at 15fps in RAW, with OVF and able to work in the most demanding environments is an exceptional tool. I hope the MKIII continues a tradition of what is a standard for professional sports photographers globally.


----------



## David - Sydney (Dec 9, 2019)

slclick said:


> It's potential news like this which makes me happy to wait and continue to shoot with my 5D3. The Mk4 and the R are just too much of an incremental bump. It's been 7 years, I can be patient for another long term body and not a stop gap.


I was the same but a cheapish second hand 5Div came up and I snapped it up... With the sale of my 5Diii, the changeover cost wasn't huge. Incremental change but in so many areas that I really notice it. The MP bump from 22 to 30mp is definitely noticeable as well as the shadow banding issue at high ISO. I just shot a karate grading and the indoor lighting was poor. ISO3200 was the minimum and I and the students were happy with the results


----------



## Isaacheus (Dec 9, 2019)

amorse said:


> No doubt it is plausible, all things considered, but for them to release all those bodies in short order they'd likely have been planning to do this for some time. Sony was only announced to have taken the full frame lead in the last week, though I think there were rumors of back and forth from ~ a year ago. I guess we'll know soon enough!



No doubt that this has been on the drawing board for a while before the ff leader announcement, but I would hazard a guess that the information about a new model coming out sooner than most expected might have been influenced by the recent news


----------



## Don Haines (Dec 9, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> No. That is exactly false.
> 
> The EVF displays what the in-camera JPEG is going to produce from the data the sensor is going to capture. It doesn't display what the sensor captures.
> 
> The final image could be many different things depending on processing. In my opinion, the best thing to do processing-wise is to try to produce and image that looks like the real scene looked after human visual-system processing, in most cases. And that's the reason the EVF should look like the scene looks, not like the out-of-camera JPEG.


And the colour balance..... and picture style......

the EVF (or live view) display is close. You can use it to get close to what you want, but you have to remember that there are a dozen settings that will effect the jpg, and you should have a good idea as to what you can do in post processing for that final image.

part of the magic is capturing the image, and part is in the darkroom, or Lightroom in the digital age.


----------



## David - Sydney (Dec 9, 2019)

bergstrom said:


> I did a dance competiton with the 5d3 the other day and my God, the photos werent great, granted crap orange lighting above, but a lot of them were blurry
> @ 1/160 with canon 70-200 2.8. I din't want to go too high a speed as I'd need hss and wear out the flash.


Push to the sync speed of 1/200s and push your ISO (and appropriate aperture to get both dancers in focus). If the 5Diii's low light shadow banding is a problem then consider upgrading to a second hand 5Div which is much better and fractionally more fps. The changeover cost isn't huge at the moment.


----------



## Don Haines (Dec 10, 2019)

Codebunny said:


> SD is significantly slower, almost 10x slower and CFExpress is getting faster time moves on. It’s like a HDD vs a SSD. Then there is just the desire to be able to share my cards between different cameras.


A quick peek at my local camera store gives me:
Various SDHC cards at 95MBps
SD UHS II at 300MBps
Cfast at 550MBps
CF at 160MBps

so yes, SD is slow, but it is also passé. If you want to move cards around, then UHS II is the way to go. I can put the cards into most of my cameras, my laptop, a portable hard drive, my laptop, my tablet, my television, and even into my desktop computer!


----------



## dominic_siu (Dec 10, 2019)

Let’s wait and see what would be R Mark II, please ditch the Multi Function Touch Bar and put back the AF-On button back to it’s usual place as 5D4


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 10, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> And the colour balance..... and picture style......
> 
> the EVF (or live view) display is close. You can use it to get close to what you want, but you have to remember that there are a dozen settings that will effect the jpg,



Right - which is why the EVF should give you just what your eye would see without it (or through an OVF).



> and you should have a good idea as to what you can do in post processing for that final image.
> 
> part of the magic is capturing the image, and part is in the darkroom, or Lightroom in the digital age.


----------



## Ozarker (Dec 10, 2019)

jazzytune said:


> I don't care that much about dual card slots, but if available, I won't complain for sure!
> 
> I don't know where you live, but I'm from Montreal, Canada, and in winter we can get very cold weather. So I repeat, in winter time, a joystick would be much appreciated to change the focus point, as it's faster than the directional button.


Actually, there is another way to change the focus point. Hold down the "AF Point/Index/Magnify/Reduce" button and the AF point can be moved vertically and horizontally using the "Quick Control" and "Main" dials.


----------



## Ozarker (Dec 10, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Okay, I didn't try those.
> 
> I've tried:
> 
> ...


I own an EM5II and find the EVF sucks compared to the R. I shoot in bright daylight to near black and find the exposure simulation of the R to be superb. On my copy the colors are faithful. Perhaps the one you tried in the store wasn't set up properly?


----------



## Ozarker (Dec 10, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> In difficult lighting conditions, the EVF display is nowhere near what the scene looks like. This is an example of that issue that I made a long time ago. The top, EVF view, is the out-of-camera JPEG. Note that this scene is NOT UNDEREXPOSED. There were still blown pixels in the raw data. It's just a high DR scene.


Opryland Hotel? Rather, that's what it was called 30 years ago.


----------



## noms78 (Dec 10, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Not needed. Thumb swipe works better.



The EOS R is a fail for those who have big noses (not me by the way). Search for Michael the Maven's youtube video. The next R will almost certainly have a joystick for those that want to use it.


----------



## noms78 (Dec 10, 2019)

AccipiterQ said:


> They're going to be at Mark II on this before they put out a pro-series R body? I really hope it's a simultaneous announcement...



A9 equivalent RF body wont be out in 2020, possibly 2021 or 2022


----------



## chaos2k (Dec 10, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Not needed. Thumb swipe works better.


how well does the swipe for in cold like -30C


----------



## slclick (Dec 10, 2019)

David - Sydney said:


> I was the same but a cheapish second hand 5Div came up and I snapped it up... With the sale of my 5Diii, the changeover cost wasn't huge. Incremental change but in so many areas that I really notice it. The MP bump from 22 to 30mp is definitely noticeable as well as the shadow banding issue at high ISO. I just shot a karate grading and the indoor lighting was poor. ISO3200 was the minimum and I and the students were happy with the results


Thanks. That is a common style of shooting for me with my son in TKD. The cost issue is a bigger factor since I won't be selling the Mk 3 so I'm sensitive to sales and street pricing with Gordon.


----------



## slclick (Dec 10, 2019)

chaos2k said:


> how well does the swipe for in cold like -30C


+ I have yet to find a touchscreen sensitive glove I care to wear. I shoot quite a bit in -5 to 20ish F and a lot of ground level macro, I need something with purchase.


----------



## Ozarker (Dec 10, 2019)

noms78 said:


> The EOS R is a fail for those who have big noses (not me by the way). Search for Michael the Maven's youtube video. The next R will almost certainly have a joystick for those that want to use it.


Without searching for or watching the video, I don't understand. I am 6'2" and have a huge nose that sticks out very close to 2" from my face. No problem. What is the problem with the R and big noses? I know for a fact that it doesn't change the focus point or any other setting. It doesn't trigger the shutter in touch mode either. Does. Not. Happen.


----------



## highdesertmesa (Dec 10, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Without searching for or watching the video, I don't understand. I am 6'2" and have a huge nose that sticks out very close to 2" from my face. No problem. What is the problem with the R and big noses? I know for a fact that it doesn't change the focus point or any other setting. It doesn't trigger the shutter in touch mode either. Does. Not. Happen.



There is no problem. Only nose problems I read about with the R are with left-eye dominant shooters.


----------



## highdesertmesa (Dec 10, 2019)

Speaking of things they can fix from the R to the RII, how about putting the eye sensor above the EVF port instead of below it so it's not so easy to trip when using the touch screen for focus or image review.


----------



## navastronia (Dec 10, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Without searching for or watching the video, I don't understand. I am 6'2" and have a huge nose that sticks out very close to 2" from my face. No problem. What is the problem with the R and big noses? I know for a fact that it doesn't change the focus point or any other setting. It doesn't trigger the shutter in touch mode either. Does. Not. Happen.



I have a normal-size nose and am left-eye-dominant and find that using touch controls while looking through the EVF is a nightmare. Being LED is a much worse problem than the nose issue, I'll admit.


----------



## Ozarker (Dec 10, 2019)

navastronia said:


> I have a normal-size nose and am left-eye-dominant and find that using touch controls while looking through the EVF is a nightmare. Being LED is a much worse problem than the nose issue, I'll admit.


I can see that. I am also left eye dominant, but for some reason I still use my right eye. However, when I am shooting hand guns I use my left eye. Have to.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Dec 10, 2019)

Great news. I think Canon is finally waking from it's 10 year self-induced coma could be a big surprise in 2020. M6 II is very encouraging, and 1DXIII is looking like a much bigger update than the disappointing 1DXII. EOS Rs specs sound great if true and a greatly improved EOS R is sorely needed. Hopefully at least 36MP, and greatly improved AF speed for tracking and eye AF. If the sensor is designed for mirrorless with good read speed a lot of improvements will be forthcoming. Hopefully it gets 5.7MP EVF and >2MP LCD, dual cards, good sealing and can compete with D850 for action. So 10fps would be awesome. If they get this right there will be no need for 5DV, this should be the camera to get DSLR fence sitters to change.


----------



## padam (Dec 10, 2019)

With these features mentioned, it will be double the price, so 3600$ versus 1800$.
But with the 1DXIII being so close, I still think they will start with the higher-end model first, and follow up the 5D Mark V with this one in a year from now, it just seems more logical.
In any case, these rumos are just all over the place and not very reliable until the announcement is close enough.


----------



## djack41 (Dec 10, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Stockholm syndrome
> 
> Really. The current EVFs suck no matter that brand. Maybe they could look better if one could assign different exposure compensation and different picture style to the EVF preview and to the final picture.


I have several Canon cameras, including the 1DX2, and I love the EVF of my EOS R. But the EVF doesn't work well over camera store counters.


----------



## criscokkat (Dec 10, 2019)

padam said:


> With these features mentioned, it will be double the price, so 3600$ versus 1800$.
> But with the 1DXIII being so close, I still think they will start with the higher-end model first, and follow up the 5D Mark V with this one in a year from now, it just seems more logical.
> In any case, these rumos are just all over the place and not very reliable until the announcement is close enough.


....so it will be 100 dollars more that the 5dmIV was when it came out, while being it’s functional replacement?

I think it will go up in price, the high mp R will be 3895 and the Rii 2495.


----------



## 6degrees (Dec 10, 2019)

Canon R body just needs to performance similarly as a7rIV, no need to be better, because Canon RF lenses are superior. That is enough to beat the crowd.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 10, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Opryland Hotel? Rather, that's what it was called 30 years ago.



Gaylord Opryland, yes.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 10, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I own an EM5II and find the EVF sucks compared to the R.



Wow. I mean, it was so much better it wasn't even close. It was the only one of the bunch that wasn't distractingly blurry when panning. It still had the brightness and DR problems of all the rest but at least it wasn't showing all those nasty video artifacts.



> I shoot in bright daylight to near black and find the exposure simulation of the R to be superb. On my copy the colors are faithful. Perhaps the one you tried in the store wasn't set up properly?



It was at the defaults.


----------



## MadScotsman (Dec 10, 2019)

noms78 said:


> The EOS R is a fail for those who have big noses (not me by the way). Search for Michael the Maven's youtube video. The next R will almost certainly have a joystick for those that want to use it.



Yeah.

No.

I long ago stopped letting YouTube outrage peddlers drive my buying decisions. They gotta find SOMETHING to be criticizing. Or be proclaimed boring. Controversy means clicks. Clicks mean money.

I have a HUGE crooked honker. Think Jamie Farr but bigger.

No issues at all. Even with this monster schnozz.

The screen drag focus point is one of the greatest features of the R.


----------



## Ozarker (Dec 10, 2019)

MadScotsman said:


> Yeah.
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


With 5 different ways to set up touch and drag.

I've seen review videos that were given based on what the reviewer had read. They had never touched the camera. One was by Maven. He admits it in this review before he had ever touched it. 




Apparently he says he did buy an R in another review. However, the nose ain't no problem if he says it is. In another review he gets into the number of button presses it takes to change ISO. Well, mine is mapped to the control ring. No button presses. He didn't even mention that. It all comes down to personal preference.


----------



## Larsskv (Dec 10, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Usually.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So, why do you discard EVFs because they don’t look the same as an OVF?

I had some of your complaints with EVFs when I first got the R, but bumping the brightness in the EVF to maximum made it much better.


----------



## unfocused (Dec 10, 2019)

noms78 said:


> The EOS R is a fail for those who have big noses (not me by the way). Search for Michael the Maven's youtube video. The next R will almost certainly have a joystick for those that want to use it.


Only if your nose happens to be located on your right cheekbone, further to the right than your eye. If that's the case, you have bigger problems than a touch screen.


----------



## slclick (Dec 10, 2019)

I actually thought the evf in the M5 was pretty good, especially coming from the HORRID Pen F. I haven't compared it to the R but did play with an RP which was under awful lighting in a store which was not a good test of the body, so no judgement there.


----------



## slclick (Dec 10, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> ....so it will be 100 dollars more that the 5dmIV was when it came out, while being it’s functional replacement?
> 
> I think it will go up in price, the high mp R will be 3895 and the Rii 2495.


It will be worth it and I'll just have to pose for more boudoir shots to earn my gear I guess.


----------



## AlanF (Dec 10, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Only if your nose happens to be located on your right cheekbone, further to the right than your eye. If that's the case, you have bigger problems than a touch screen.


Those who are left eye dominant do have their nose to the right of their viewing eye. If that were not the case, they would Indeed have a bigger problem than a touch screen.


----------



## Lenscracker (Dec 10, 2019)

I had to buy a Nikon Z in order to get auto focus shift for close-ups and macro. What would be so difficult about adding that to the R2 body?


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Dec 10, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> A quick peek at my local camera store gives me:
> Various SDHC cards at 95MBps
> SD UHS II at 300MBps
> Cfast at 550MBps
> ...



CFExpress are 1700MBps read and 1200MBps write and thats the v1 cards. 

Sandisk CF Express Extreme Pro 128GB 1700MB/s Read Speed, 1200MB/s Write Speed <- About £300 each so not dreadfully expensive.


----------



## twoheadedboy (Dec 10, 2019)

NorskHest said:


> Gross. I might be alone in this category but I hate that body and ergos, make it feel and operate like a 5d or 1d and I’m sold until then I’ll be stuck with a mirror till I die



You don't know the "body and ergos" because the rumor indicates it's based off a forthcoming camera, not the R MK1.


----------



## Don Haines (Dec 10, 2019)

Codebunny said:


> CFExpress are 1700MBps read and 1200MBps write and thats the v1 cards.
> 
> Sandisk CF Express Extreme Pro 128GB 1700MB/s Read Speed, 1200MB/s Write Speed <- About £300 each so not dreadfully expensive.


Yes, the speed is fantastic. I think there are a few cards on the market that hit write speeds of 1550MB/S. When I first started using CF they were somewhere around 10MB in size and under 1MB/S transfer speed. We have come a long way!


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Dec 10, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> Yes, the speed is fantastic. I think there are a few cards on the market that hit write speeds of 1550MB/S. When I first started using CF they were somewhere around 10MB in size and under 1MB/S transfer speed. We have come a long way!



Dumping a CFExpress card to my laptop in seconds is fantastic and I have found it more impressive than more RAM and more CPU cores. But mostly I just want to have a bag full of one card format I can swap between my cameras. It is better to me to have 6 CFExpress cards than 3 SD and 3 CFExpress for example, I wouldn't want to be caught out without storage to spare.

We are also ATM only on single, maybe dual lane CFExpress, the format can go to 8 lanes and is built on the PCIe standard so we can expect 4GB/s read and write soon.


----------



## AlanF (Dec 10, 2019)

Codebunny said:


> CFExpress are 1700MBps read and 1200MBps write and thats the v1 cards.
> 
> Sandisk CF Express Extreme Pro 128GB 1700MB/s Read Speed, 1200MB/s Write Speed <- About £300 each so not dreadfully expensive.


I am sure the speed is extremely useful for you pros and 6x£300 isn't a big deal on your expenses, especially if written off against tax and especially if you reclaim VAT. For many of us enthusiasts, a handful of cheap SD cards is much better.


----------



## BeenThere (Dec 10, 2019)

Drcampbellicu said:


> I disagree
> If the new R is truly a 5D mark replacement then it will be the professional biggest impact
> The 5D mark line sells a ton and is probably by *volume* canons most important pro body


As this rumor spreads, current R sales will die and prices will fall drastically. Is this going to alienate the early adopters?


----------



## koenkooi (Dec 10, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I am sure the speed is extremely useful for you pros and 6x£300 isn't a big deal on your expenses, especially if written off against tax and especially if you reclaim VAT. For many of us enthusiasts, a handful of cheap SD cards is much better.



I wouldn't mind faster download speeds for getting pictures of the card(s), but it would mean adding €1000 to the price of the new R for 2 cards and a reader. That's L lens kind of money


----------



## CJudge (Dec 10, 2019)

Codebunny said:


> SD is significantly slower, almost 10x slower and CFExpress is getting faster time moves on. It’s like a HDD vs a SSD. Then there is just the desire to be able to share my cards between different cameras.



Not that it isn't still a big difference, but the speed difference is more like 5x. And in real-world performance, it likely wouldn't even match that. UHS-iii is also coming on the market, so although CFExpress will undoubtedly get even faster, so will SD.

Frankly, considering how long it took for canon to even move to UHS-ii and USB 3.0, I really doubt they'll be adopting CFExpress in this category of camera for some time. They also seem to prioritise maintaining standards, such as battery type and media type, over keeping up with the latest and greatest. Just my guess anyway.


----------



## Pape (Dec 10, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Only if your nose happens to be located on your right cheekbone, further to the right than your eye. If that's the case, you have bigger problems than a touch screen.


Some peoples may have small head and big nose,and they may stuck their tongue to right cheek when they consentrate


----------



## gdanmitchell (Dec 10, 2019)

You have to wonder if the designations are becoming a bit confusing... and if this is a camera positioned more like the 5DIV in the Canon line-up? That would make sense if it released roughly in concert with the high MP camera — two models roughly like the current 5DIV and 5DsR but mirrorless.


----------



## edoorn (Dec 10, 2019)

I think this would be the case...that way the R also still has it's place, in a lower segment at a lower price


----------



## Don Haines (Dec 10, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I am sure the speed is extremely useful for you pros and 6x£300 isn't a big deal on your expenses, especially if written off against tax and especially if you reclaim VAT. For many of us enthusiasts, a handful of cheap SD cards is much better.


And this is a very good point. We have to think about balance in a design. What is the point of making a camera semi low cost when you have to spend almost as much as the camera to get memory cards? Does the camera have the computing power to flow data to those cards at speed? Is one of the design criteria compatibility? What about product differation?

i can see going to those cards on a 1DX2 replacement, but not an R


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Dec 10, 2019)

CJudge said:


> Not that it isn't still a big difference, but the speed difference is more like 5x. And in real-world performance, it likely wouldn't even match that. UHS-iii is also coming on the market, so although CFExpress will undoubtedly get even faster, so will SD.
> 
> Frankly, considering how long it took for canon to even move to UHS-ii and USB 3.0, I really doubt they'll be adopting CFExpress in this category of camera for some time. They also seem to prioritise maintaining standards, such as battery type and media type, over keeping up with the latest and greatest. Just my guess anyway.



SDExpress will bring SD up to speed but likely only ever matching 1x lane due to lack of physical space. Still regardless, if the R Mark ii isn’t CFExpress then I’ll just wait for them pushing out a pro camera; we already know the next 1d is CFExpress and the Nikon pro bodies and current mirrorless bodies are with firmware updates.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Dec 10, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I am sure the speed is extremely useful for you pros and 6x£300 isn't a big deal on your expenses, especially if written off against tax and especially if you reclaim VAT. For many of us enthusiasts, a handful of cheap SD cards is much better.



If you are happy with SD then you will need to be happy with no 8K movie recording and a reduction in burst. Something has to give if you are using a format that is already been well surpassed. And you can get CFExpress cards for under £100.


----------



## tron (Dec 10, 2019)

Which DSLR or Mirrorless cameras support 8K? This is just EOS R successor we are talking about!


----------



## AlanF (Dec 10, 2019)

Codebunny said:


> If you are happy with SD then you will need to be happy with no 8K movie recording and a reduction in burst. Something has to give if you are using a format that is already been well surpassed. And you can get CFExpress cards for under £100.


Believe it or not, 8K movie is not even on my horizon, and none of my Canon bodies (5DSR, 5DIV and 90D) has its bursts limited by current CF or SD cards.


----------



## bergstrom (Dec 10, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I'm yet to see a dancing competition where they allow a flash. It's very disturbing to competitors. Typically you'd shot at ISO 1600-3200 to get at least 1/320 - 1/400 at f2.8. Even if the shots appear slightly underexposed, better use the higher shutter speed and then increase the exposure in postproduction (all must be shot in RAW obviously). With a flash you could potentially go down to ISO 400-800. But I'm not sure what type of flash you'd use to have an even lighting across the whole scene.
> 
> The colour cast from the stage lighting can be reduced by simply dialling the saturation down.



I'll rephrase that, it was a showcase, not a competition, so it was a family event and unfortunately lit high aboy by those florescent tubes. The skin tones on the back of my camera are absolutely crap, so i have alot of work to do in lightroom.


----------



## Dantana (Dec 10, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> In difficult lighting conditions, the EVF display is nowhere near what the scene looks like. This is an example of that issue that I made a long time ago. The top, EVF view, is the out-of-camera JPEG. Note that this scene is NOT UNDEREXPOSED. There were still blown pixels in the raw data. It's just a high DR scene.


Is the bottom picture straight out of camera? If not, you're never going to get that image on an EVF.


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Dec 10, 2019)

Looking forward to this release! I’ll definitely pre-order one.




Just kidding I’m £650 overdrawn.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 10, 2019)

Dantana said:


> Is the bottom picture straight out of camera? If not, you're never going to get that image on an EVF.



The top image is straight out of the camera.

The bottom image is now producible by a Pixel 4 on the LCD, prior to the image being taken. It can be done, but camera manufacturers don't do it.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Dec 11, 2019)

bergstrom said:


> I'll rephrase that, it was a showcase, not a competition, so it was a family event and unfortunately lit high aboy by those florescent tubes. The skin tones on the back of my camera are absolutely crap, so i have alot of work to do in lightroom.



Fancy/unusual stage light may be hard to fix by tweaking the white balance, but it's not necessary, just bring the saturation down until the skin tones look more or less pleasing and not hurting the eyes with acid colours, but they don't have to look 'natural' as it wasn't the natural light to start with.


----------



## Dantana (Dec 11, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> The top image is straight out of the camera.
> 
> The bottom image is now producible by a Pixel 4 on the LCD, prior to the image being taken. It can be done, but camera manufacturers don't do it.


Okay, although I'd be willing to bet that kind of real time computational processing of a full frame image wouldn't be something that manufacturers could just do, though I could be completely off base.

I guess our expectations for things are all different.


----------



## victorshikhman (Dec 11, 2019)

This is likely bad news for R owners, as Canon is unlikely to keep updating R firmware with a next gen body on the horizon.


----------



## Quirkz (Dec 11, 2019)

highdesertmesa said:


> There is no problem. Only nose problems I read about with the R are with left-eye dominant shooters.


Even with that you can flip which side of the screen to use for drag focus. Though after experimenting I found that the nose thing just doesn’t happen and switched back to full screen so I can drag across the entire frame without lifting my thumb. 

Not saying that some people don’t have a problem, but judging from everyone else on this forum with an r series, it’s certainly not common.


----------



## jazzytune (Dec 11, 2019)

victorshikhman said:


> This is likely bad news for R owners, as Canon is unlikely to keep updating R firmware with a next gen body on the horizon.


Not really... There will be more firmware updates for new lenses compatibility and things like that, but no other major improvements. This is not related to the arrival of a Canon EOS R mark II, it's rather due to the fact that whatever functions that could be improved via firmware on this camera has already been done.


----------



## wockawocka (Dec 11, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Believe it or not, 8K movie is not even on my horizon, and none of my Canon bodies (5DSR, 5DIV and 90D) has its bursts limited by current CF or SD cards.



Agreed, watching 1080p on a 40" 4k TV in my front room and I can't see it getting any sharper tbh. What the hell do I need 8k for unless I'm editing / cropping.


----------



## JohanCruyff (Dec 11, 2019)

jazzytune said:


> whatever functions that could be improved via firmware on this camera has already been done.


Except for Focus stacking (available for the RP).
We'll see.


----------



## Memdroid (Dec 11, 2019)

jazzytune said:


> Not really... There will be more firmware updates for new lenses compatibility and things like that, but no other major improvements. This is not related to the arrival of a Canon EOS R mark II, it's rather due to the fact that whatever functions that could be improved via firmware on this camera has already been done.



I still suspect there is more juice in the max FPS in AI servo mode


----------



## bbb34 (Dec 11, 2019)

Dantana said:


> Okay, although I'd be willing to bet that kind of real time computational processing of a full frame image wouldn't be something that manufacturers could just do, though I could be completely off base.
> 
> I guess our expectations for things are all different.



I would expect that a dedicated DSP (like DIGIC) has the performance to do that with sufficient frame rate for the view finder resolution. Reducing global contrast and increasing local contrast is a simple operation in frequency space. Just my guess - I have no proof or sources.


----------



## Joules (Dec 11, 2019)

Memdroid said:


> I still suspect there is more juice in the max FPS in AI servo mode


What makes you believe that?


----------



## Ozarker (Dec 11, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Wow. I mean, it was so much better it wasn't even close. It was the only one of the bunch that wasn't distractingly blurry when panning. It still had the brightness and DR problems of all the rest but at least it wasn't showing all those nasty video artifacts.
> 
> 
> 
> It was at the defaults.


If you get the chance and get back to the store, set the display performance to "smooth" rather than the default. Also turn on continuous AF. Maybe that will help.


----------



## slclick (Dec 11, 2019)

victorshikhman said:


> This is likely bad news for R owners, as Canon is unlikely to keep updating R firmware with a next gen body on the horizon.


You might want to familiarize yourself with Canon history.


----------



## Don Haines (Dec 11, 2019)

slclick said:


> You might want to familiarize yourself with Canon history.


Yeah, I updated a 7D2 last week.....


----------



## tron (Dec 11, 2019)

EOS R had already major firmware updates. And if there are errors they will surely correct them too.


----------



## Stichus III (Dec 11, 2019)

amorse said:


> No doubt it is plausible, all things considered, but for them to release all those bodies in short order they'd likely have been planning to do this for some time. Sony was only announced to have taken the full frame lead in the last week, though I think there were rumors of back and forth from ~ a year ago. I guess we'll know soon enough!



It was indeed only announced last week that Sony had overtaken Canon in the full frame market, but Canon through its own market research, must have known this -or that it would likely occur- for much longer.


----------



## Quirkz (Dec 11, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> The top image is straight out of the camera.
> 
> The bottom image is now producible by a Pixel 4 on the LCD, prior to the image being taken. It can be done, but camera manufacturers don't do it.



Because most people would prefer as little processing as possible on the image, unless it’s a special mode such as hdr. Especially if shooting raw. 

Most people seem to consider the fact that the evf reflects captured image to be a feature.


----------



## Michael Clark (Dec 11, 2019)

navastronia said:


> Yeah, I agree 100%. Since I only shoot JPGs for backup, this has not concerned me. Indeed, with OVF, you can spot meter and find out what you're blowing out while still being able to see it.
> 
> ---
> 
> ...



For shooters who have learned to use the camera's (or an external) meter effectively with an OVF, the sort of "WYSIWYG" property of EVFs is not the greatest thing since sliced bread the way it is for those who have never bothered to learn how to look at a scene with their own eyes and learned how the camera and its meter (in whatever particular metering mode they are using) will see the same scene. Many of us have been nailing exposure just fine, thank you, for decades before the advent of EVFs.


----------



## geffy (Dec 11, 2019)

The disappointing R left many of us to go apsc mirrorless and its allowed me to wait and watch, add a speedbooster and its been quite an eyeopener, pixel peepers and reviewers may scorn but the M50 has done more than my 1ds 3 ever did for sales a 6d taking up the slack, yes i will be buying 2 R2 bodies because i do not see them being a stop gap and possibly my last ever purchase of bodies, a few RF lenses may follow, in all an easy transition both financial and technical thanks to the 2 m50 bodies.


----------



## twoheadedboy (Dec 11, 2019)

geffy said:


> The disappointing R left many of us to go apsc mirrorless and its allowed me to wait and watch, add a speedbooster and its been quite an eyeopener, pixel peepers and reviewers may scorn but the M50 has done more than my 1ds 3 ever did for sales a 6d taking up the slack, yes i will be buying 2 R2 bodies because i do not see them being a stop gap and possibly my last ever purchase of bodies, a few RF lenses may follow, in all an easy transition both financial and technical thanks to the 2 m50 bodies.



What disappointments with the R would lead you go to APS-C mirrorless, instead of say, sticking with the 5D MKIV?


----------



## LensFungus (Dec 11, 2019)

twoheadedboy said:


> What disappointments with the R would lead you go to APS-C mirrorless, instead of say, sticking with the 5D MKIV?


The M50 will make his hands look bigger and you know what they say about men with big hands. Bow chicka wow wow!


----------



## twoheadedboy (Dec 11, 2019)

LensFungus said:


> The M50 will make his hands look bigger and you know what they say about men with big hands. Bow chicka wow wow!



Speaking as a guy with Trump-level small hands, I sympathize...but I still use the R


----------



## navastronia (Dec 11, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> For shooters who have learned to use the camera's (or an external) meter effectively with an OVF, the sort of "WYSIWYG" property of EVFs is not the greatest thing since sliced bread the way it is for those who have never bothered to learn how to look at a scene with their own eyes and learned how the camera and its meter (in whatever particular metering mode they are using) will see the same scene. Many of us have been nailing exposure just fine, thank you, for decades before the advent of EVFs.



No one said you haven’t been  Before you get more defensive, I didn’t even claim EVFs were better, though it must be said that EVFs are also not the exclusive purview of amateurs who don’t understand metering.


----------



## geffy (Dec 11, 2019)

twoheadedboy said:


> What disappointments with the R would lead you go to APS-C mirrorless, instead of say, sticking with the 5D MKIV?


mirrorless is so easy, snapping instead of checking settings, any error showing in the viewfinder and the criticised m lenses are fine, size matters when you carry 2 or 3 bodies and no bag, i never carry a bag and people do not even see a camera unless there is one around my neck, yes a mk iv is great but your second camera am m with m lens is such an obvious solution for single body shooters, i have not used my 16 to 35 since i had the 11 to 22, and a 500 or 600 prime with apsc is a revelation to any photographer stick with the 5d but the second body m50 really opens your eyes but not with a kit lens and ditch the bag for a double shoulder strap under the jacket for the pure freedom and the weather protection as its not weather sealed


----------



## geffy (Dec 11, 2019)

navastronia said:


> No one said you haven’t been  Before you get more defensive, I didn’t even claim EVFs were better, though it must be said that EVFs are also not the exclusive purview of amateurs who don’t understand metering.


its like people who shoot film who believe the more obstacles they put up the better their picture is if they overcome them, taking pictures and making pictures produce a product that should be judged by its quality not whether the producer was handicapped or from an underprivileged background if you allow the brevity


----------



## gbc (Dec 11, 2019)

Joules said:


> Besides the obvious IBIS and two card slots, it could gain better weather sealing and a joystick, as well as a different ergonomic.


Having used both this and my 5DIV side by side for over a year now, I have to say, I find the touch screen much faster than the joystick. There are times when I do just want to nudge the AF point over one spot where the joystick is quicker and more precise, but mostly--and especially since the firmware update--the touch screen AF point movement has left me not missing the joystick at all.


----------



## gbc (Dec 11, 2019)

Quirkz said:


> Most people seem to consider the fact that the evf reflects captured image to be a feature.


Not only that, but after using the R and 5DIV together at shoots, I've found I have become quite dependent on the EVF image preview feature. It's gotten to the point of a crutch, really, because I find I'm blowing a lot more shots the 5D exposure settings lately. I love the EVF and I'm never going back.


----------



## David_E (Dec 11, 2019)

SV said:


> _...the EOS R Mark 1_ ...


Canon does not have a camera model called the EOS R Mark 1. Product naming conventions across a wide range of industries dictate that nothing is named Mark I (or Marque I). The convention also dictates that Roman numerals follow _Mark_ or _Marque_. FYI.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 11, 2019)

Quirkz said:


> Because most people would prefer as little processing as possible on the image,



Then shoot raw.



> unless it’s a special mode such as hdr. Especially if shooting raw.



No one ever said it should alter the raw data, but the EVF doesn't show you the raw data.



> Most people seem to consider the fact that the evf reflects captured image to be a feature.



The EVF should reflect the actual scene, and the raw data should reflect the captured image. The JPEG is just an interpretation of the raw data.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 11, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> If you get the chance and get back to the store, set the display performance to "smooth" rather than the default. Also turn on continuous AF. Maybe that will help.



I had it in manual focus. The problem was the EVF, not the AF.


----------



## slclick (Dec 11, 2019)

geffy said:


> its like people who shoot film who believe the more obstacles they put up the better their picture is if they overcome them, taking pictures and making pictures produce a product that should be judged by its quality not whether the producer was handicapped or from an underprivileged background if you allow the brevity


I've really got to ask...are you using dictation?


----------



## Michael Clark (Dec 11, 2019)

twoheadedboy said:


> You don't know the "body and ergos" because the rumor indicates it's based off a forthcoming camera, not the R MK1.



That all depends on whether you read "Rs" as the EOS Rs camera model or the plural form of the EOS R...


----------



## Michael Clark (Dec 11, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> Yes, the speed is fantastic. I think there are a few cards on the market that hit write speeds of 1550MB/S. When I first started using CF they were somewhere around 10MB in size and under 1MB/S transfer speed. We have come a long way!



CF Express is a different form factor from the legacy CF cards.


----------



## slclick (Dec 11, 2019)

David_E said:


> Canon does not have a camera model called the EOS R Mark 1. Product naming conventions across a wide range of industries dictate that nothing is named Mark I (or Marque I). The convention also dictates that Roman numerals follow _Mark_ or _Marque_. FYI.


These folks could always use the term 'Classic' instead. 

But maybe they are Jaguar drivers and just can't get away from the nomenclature.


----------



## Joules (Dec 11, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> The EVF should reflect the actual scene, and the raw data should reflect the captured image. The JPEG is just an interpretation of the raw data.


Literally everything is just an interpretation, be it your human vision that you see with your bare eye, or through an optical viewfinder, or a JPEG render displayed in an EVF.

As long as you know how that interpretation comes about, it can help you gain some insight on your subject. I really can't follow you, you seem to talk down to everybody here for having a different preference.

Maybe I misunderstand you, but it seems you would rather have an EVF image that looks unaffected by your exposure settings? So that is more like an OVF? What's the point of that?


----------



## Joules (Dec 11, 2019)

slclick said:


> These folks could always use the term 'Classic' instead.


And then they shorten that to Camera Name C, which creates confusion if Canon ever releases another cinema SLR  

At least we're not at the point where even the manufacturer names are ambiguous.


----------



## Michael Clark (Dec 11, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Believe it or not, 8K movie is not even on my horizon, and none of my Canon bodies (5DSR, 5DIV and 90D) has its bursts limited by current CF or SD cards.



Well, there's no current SD form factor card on the market that is as fast in those three cameras as the fastest CF cards are. For the 5Ds and 5D mark IV, the fastest SD cards max out at around 70 and 80 MB/s, respectively, while the fastest CF cards max out at around 100 and 110 MB/s.






Fastest SD and CF Cards for the Canon 5D Mark IV - A comparison of write speed for 5D Mk IV Digital Camera - Camera Memory Speed Comparison & Performance tests for SD and CF cards


Comparison of SD and CF Cards in Canon EOS 5D Mark IV camera write speed test. The fastest memory card for 5D IV continuous burst shooting.




www.cameramemoryspeed.com


----------



## Michael Clark (Dec 11, 2019)

Memdroid said:


> I still suspect there is more juice in the max FPS in AI servo mode



That's likely a hardware limitation due to sensor readout speed (or lack thereof).


----------



## AlanF (Dec 11, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Well, there's no current SD form factor card on the market that is as fast in those three cameras s the fastest CF cards are. For the 5Ds and 5D mark IV, the fastest SD cards max out at around 70 and 80 MB/s, respectively, while the fastest CF cards max out at around 100 and 110 MB/s.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The point of my post is that the write speed from the 5DIV is not limited by the compatible CF cards. It's less than the maximum of the best cards available for it: the fastest write speeds are 112MB/s whereas the cards like the SanDisk Extreme Pro 160MB/s 256GB is rated 160MB/s read speed and 150MB/s write speed.

I have found to my expense that the 90D, which is compatible with UHS-II, has negligible better write performance with the best Sandisk UHS-II and UHS-I cards, which I talked about in another thread.





UHS-I or UHS-II with 90D?


As a stills shooter, will I miss out by not using a UHS-II card for the 90D? Downloading to the computer will not be speeded up for me as the camera has only a USB 2.0 connector and I don't want to use a fast external card reader, and I doubt if I'll be downloading more than 32 GB at any one...




www.canonrumors.com


----------



## Michael Clark (Dec 11, 2019)

navastronia said:


> No one said you haven’t been  Before you get more defensive, I didn’t even claim EVFs were better, though it must be said that EVFs are also not the exclusive purview of amateurs who don’t understand metering.



I'm the one being defensive? Please go back and reread your entire conversation regarding EVFs that seemed at the beginning to be predicated on the idea that an EVF that can provide "WYSIWYG" exposure simulation is surely preferable to an OVF for everyone. Yes, you did back off that a little when some of the advantages of OVFs for certain use cases were pointed out.


----------



## Photo Hack (Dec 11, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> The EVF should reflect the actual scene, and the raw data should reflect the captured image. The JPEG is just an interpretation of the raw data.



What you think "should" happen is pretty irrelevant here, an EVF isn't for you it sounds like, great. But if you were wondering, you can turn the Exposure Simulation off the EVF so it "acts" like an OVF. There's three different settings. As Canon Fan Boy also mentioned, you can increase the performance of the EVF as I believe the default setting is power saving and performs similar to how you described. 

So you can choose what "should" happen with your EVF. A few years from now as technology gets better I really see no reason to stay in the limitations of DSLR and OVF.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 11, 2019)

Joules said:


> Literally everything is just an interpretation, be it your human vision that you see with your bare eye, or through an optical viewfinder, or a JPEG render displayed in an EVF.
> 
> As long as you know how that interpretation comes about, it can help you gain some insight on your subject. I really can't follow you, you seem to talk down to everybody here for having a different preference.
> 
> Maybe I misunderstand you, but it seems you would rather have an EVF image that looks unaffected by your exposure settings? So that is more like an OVF? What's the point of that?



I would like the EVF image to look the way the scene looks to my eye, because that's how I'm going to process the raw data in almost all cases.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 11, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> So you can choose what "should" happen with your EVF. A few years from now as technology gets better I really see no reason to stay in the limitations of DSLR and OVF.



Because the EVF doesn't show how the scene looks, it's a power-sucker, and it's laggy.


----------



## geffy (Dec 11, 2019)

slclick said:


> I've really got to ask...are you using dictation?


that would make me a dictator, guess which one


----------



## slclick (Dec 11, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Because the EVF doesn't show how the scene looks, it's a power-sucker, and it's laggy.


Ok, who makes one which is not to some degree? My only experience with EVF's outside using them in a brick and mortar store (please don't ever use that experience as a determination for slamming a product outside of ergonomics) was the Oly PenF -awful EVF and the Canon M5- pretty good but needs improvement.


----------



## slclick (Dec 11, 2019)

geffy said:


> that would make me a dictator, guess which one


Nope. My personal rules for the forum, no gun, religion or political chit chat. They are the axis of evil.


----------



## Michael Clark (Dec 11, 2019)

geffy said:


> that would make me a dictator, guess which one



At times it is difficult to understand what you're trying to say because your posts appear to be one long run-on sentence. It's hard to tell if some clauses are supposed to be attached to what comes before or what follows them.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 11, 2019)

slclick said:


> Ok, who makes one which is not to some degree?



No one.

But it looks like, in the near future, no other cameras are going to be made or supported, leaving me with a stranded system. And that sucks.


----------



## Michael Clark (Dec 11, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> What you think "should" happen is pretty irrelevant here, an EVF isn't for you it sounds like, great. But if you were wondering, you can turn the Exposure Simulation off the EVF so it "acts" like an OVF. There's three different settings. As Canon Fan Boy also mentioned, you can increase the performance of the EVF as I believe the default setting is power saving and performs similar to how you described.
> 
> So you can choose what "should" happen with your EVF. A few years from now as technology gets better I really see no reason to stay in the limitations of DSLR and OVF.



Both OVFs and EVFs and the respective cameras to which they are attached are tools. Some tools are more appropriate for certain tasks. Other tools are more appropriate for other tasks. As EVF technology advances, it will allow cameras that have EVFs to do more and more tasks as well as, or almost as well as, cameras that have OVFs. But there will probably always be some tasks that will be better accomplished using an OVF.


----------



## Photo Hack (Dec 11, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> I would like the EVF image to look the way the scene looks to my eye, because that's how I'm going to process the raw data in almost all cases.


Ok great, move along now. I'm not sure why you're still here, you tried out some EVFs in their default settings in a store and didn't like them and complaining on the internet about it. It's the equivalent of someone going into a DLSR thread to complain that the OVF doesn't simulate exposure.

For anyone else..... here's the useful information, if you're skeptical about EVF's make sure you're using the right settings that are a priority to you. That's the great thing about technology, you have more choices. If it's not good enough, don't buy it, it's not for you. You can replicate OVF, use exposure simulation, or a combination of them. Then there's myriad of other options not possible with an OVF.

If you don't like an EVF stay with your DSLR, they'll be around longer than you'll probably be alive and be fully capable of capturing great pictures.


----------



## Kit. (Dec 11, 2019)

Dantana said:


> Okay, although I'd be willing to bet that kind of real time computational processing of a full frame image wouldn't be something that manufacturers could just do, though I could be completely off base.


They are already doing it; it's just not user-configurable enough.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 11, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Ok great, move along now. I'm not sure why you're still here, you tried out some EVFs in their default settings in a store and didn't like them and complaining on the internet about it. It's the equivalent of someone going into a DLSR thread to complain that the OVF doesn't simulate exposure.
> 
> For anyone else..... here's the useful information, if you're skeptical about EVF's make sure you're using the right settings that are a priority to you. That's the great thing about technology, you have more choices. If it's not good enough, don't buy it, it's not for you. You can replicate OVF, use exposure simulation, or a combination of them. Then there's myriad of other options not possible with an OVF.
> 
> If you don't like an EVF stay with your DSLR, they'll be around longer than you'll probably be alive and be fully capable of capturing great pictures.



If I live as long as my grandfather, I'll be around for another 47 years. Think my 7DII will last that long, be supported and upgraded during that period?


----------



## Photo Hack (Dec 11, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> If I live as long as my grandfather, I'll be around for another 47 years. Think my 7DII will last that long, be supported and upgraded during that period?



I still see people shooting expired film.....


----------



## Ozarker (Dec 11, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> I had it in manual focus. The problem was the EVF, not the AF.


You miss the point entirely. Smooth has to do with the evf screen performance. Smooth is not the default. You said everything was in default. Panning in mf? Ok


----------



## Don Haines (Dec 11, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> CF Express is a different form factor from the legacy CF cards.


Yes, I know...
CF is obsolete now.

SD is also obsolete compared to SDXC UHS II, but you can still use the cards in either, albeit at reduced speed.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 11, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> You miss the point entirely. Smooth has to do with the evf screen performance. Smooth is not the default. You said everything was in default. Planning in mf? Ok



From the post to which I responded: "Also turn on continuous AF. Maybe that will help. "


----------



## navastronia (Dec 12, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> I'm the one being defensive? Please go back and reread your entire conversation regarding EVFs that seemed at the beginning to be predicated on the idea that an EVF that can provide "WYSIWYG" exposure simulation is surely preferable to an OVF for everyone. Yes, you did back off that a little when some of the advantages of OVFs for certain use cases were pointed out.



I'm aware of everything I've said. Assuming you've also read my conversation, you probably noticed that another forumer seemed to have some puzzling misunderstandings about what EVFs can/should be able to do; the only reason I began this woebegone tangent was to correct that. I have never, anywhere in this thread claimed EVFs are superior to OVFs.


----------



## navastronia (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Because the EVF doesn't show how the scene looks, it's a power-sucker, and it's laggy.



An EVF. Shows. What. The. Camera. Will. Capture.

You're in this thread continually arguing that an EVF should behave like an OVF. Why? Do you also get mad that you can't squeeze apples to get orange juice?


----------



## Ozarker (Dec 12, 2019)

navastronia said:


> An EVF. Shows. What. The. Camera. Will. Capture.
> 
> You're in this thread continually arguing that an EVF should behave like an OVF. Why? Do you also get mad that you can't squeeze apples to get orange juice?


In the auto sales industry there is a word for people who test drive every single car and never buy complain and never buy.


----------



## Photo Hack (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay,

There’s also the option of setting EVF to not simulate exposure and using your human eyes to look at the scene before taking the picture. When I shoot weddings I usually don’t have the camera VF strapped to both of my eyes all day. 

LCD screen has seemed to be sufficient for digital filmmaking for a few years and my guess is that people will acclimate to EVF for stills as well. If camera makers are serious about capturing the A9, 1D, D5 market their EVF tech will come along and shooters will adapt.

Can we move on now? The horse has been buried.


----------



## geffy (Dec 12, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> At times it is difficult to understand what you're trying to say because your posts appear to be one long run-on sentence. It's hard to tell if some clauses are supposed to be attached to what comes before or what follows them.


kerouac


----------



## navastronia (Dec 12, 2019)

geffy said:


> kerouac



I laughed (much love for The Dharma Bums), but Michael Clark is right, your posts are hard to read.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

navastronia said:


> An EVF. Shows. What. The. Camera. Will. Capture.



No. It. Does. Not.



> You're in this thread continually arguing that an EVF should behave like an OVF. Why?



So I can actually see what I'm shooting, even in difficult conditions.


----------



## slclick (Dec 12, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> I still see people shooting expired film.....


I'm doing it as we type.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Lee Jay,
> 
> There’s also the option of setting EVF to not simulate exposure



Exposure isn't the only problem. DR is the biggest problem. You get maybe 8 stops through an EVF while the sensor captures 3-6 stops more than that. And you can't see that through the EVF because brights that are blown in the EVF will still be usable in the image, and darks that are crushed will still be recoverable in the image.



> and using your human eyes to look at the scene before taking the picture.



Which doesn't show framing.


----------



## slclick (Dec 12, 2019)

geffy said:


> kerouac


Ah, you can't go there, this is more akin to a tweet. His is art and comparing that to a photo post is sacrilege.


----------



## unfocused (Dec 12, 2019)

geffy said:


> kerouac



Robert Frank


----------



## Photo Hack (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Exposure isn't the only problem. DR is the biggest problem. You get maybe 8 stops through an EVF while the sensor captures 3-6 stops more than that. And you can't see that through the EVF because brights that are blown in the EVF will still be usable in the image, and darks that are crushed will still be recoverable in the image.
> 
> 
> 
> Which doesn't show framing.


Sooooo what? Stick your arms and fingers out in front of you and frame the shot.

You can even have a histogram flash in front of you in an EVF so that solves your biggest problem which is going to be far more reliable than your eyes in an OVF.

You're moving your goal posts anyways. You're complaining that an EVF doesn't capture real life view and it's simulated. But now you want an EVF to capture full DR of the sensor? Can your naked eye in OVF know exactly what will be recoverable and usable before you expose your shot? That's kind of the point of Exposure simulation, to get you closer to the end result of an exposed image and what you want. You shouldn't rely on this 100% anymore than you should rely on the LCD screen. Use the histogram. 

Get your engineering degree and go make yourself a camera that fits all your demands. What do you want? An optical viewfinder in a mirrorless body? The technology of tomorrow now?


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Sooooo what? Stick your arms and fingers out in front of you and frame the shot.



I shoot mostly fast-moving subjects.



> You can even have a histogram flash in front of you in an EVF



Which is super-distracting so I always shut all that nonsense off.



> [ so that solves your biggest problem



No, it doesn't, because it's not a raw histogram.



> which is going to be far more reliable than your eyes in an OVF.



I doubt that.




> You're moving your goal posts anyways. You're complaining that an EVF doesn't capture real life view and it's simulated. But now you want an EVF to capture full DR of the sensor?



Yes, that would be called "real life". If the sensor gives 12 stops, why would I want 4 of them cut off by the EVF?



> Can your naked eye in OVF know exactly what will be recoverable and usable before you expose your shot?



Yes. It's called "experience".



> That's kind of the point of Exposure simulation, to get you closer to the end result of an exposed image and what you want.



It doesn't work - at all.



> You shouldn't rely on this 100% anymore than you should rely on the LCD screen. Use the histogram.



I don't use the LCD, and the histogram is of the out-of-camera JPEG, which means it's not just worthless, but it's misleading.



> Get your engineering degree



Already have two.



> and go make yourself a camera that fits all your demands.



Already have one.



> What do you want?



A newer version, and full development. My camera came out in 2015, there's no sign of a future improved version, yet a camera that came out in 2019 is being replaced already. This mirrorless stuff is replacing the development on cameras I can actually use.


----------



## Photo Hack (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> I shoot mostly fast-moving subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you’re just a salty complainer who’s too sexy for his camera. What could you possibly get from a mark III 7D that can improve your perfected skills?

Never mind, please don’t answer any more questions. We’re all begging you. Please!


----------



## slclick (Dec 12, 2019)

Can we get a segue?


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> So you’re just a salty complainer who’s too sexy for his camera. What could you possibly get from a mark III 7D that can improve your perfected skills?



Smaller pixels, improved AF, a hybrid viewfinder for video, improved video function and features, and a better sensor.


----------



## Photo Hack (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Smaller pixels, improved AF, a hybrid viewfinder for video, improved video function and features, and a better sensor.


Sweet! So does that mean you don’t want an Eos R II?


----------



## Ozarker (Dec 12, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Sweet! So does that mean you don’t want an Eos R II?


I had no idea my mother in law lurked here. Just ignore her. She'll never go away, but you'll save yourself a lot of grief.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Sweet! So does that mean you don’t want an Eos R II?



I want the development energy that was spent on it.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I had no idea my mother in law lurked here. Just ignore her. She'll never go away, but you'll save yourself a lot of grief.



I'm a married father of two.


----------



## Photo Hack (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> I want the development energy that was spent on it.


I want the same energy put towards digging wells in Africa.....Ain't gonna happen and I'm not going to put 200 posts worth of energy in this thread to convince everyone else of my opinion either.

Maybe you could harness your own energy here into petitioning Canon to throw a ton of money developing products for an ever shrinking and outdated market. Heck maybe they can start making film cameras again while they're at it. You seem persistent enough and could probably get that done.

GO get em!


----------



## slclick (Dec 12, 2019)

So, no segue, just cackling of the hens?


----------



## Nelu (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> I would like the EVF image to look the way the scene looks to my eye, because that's how I'm going to process the raw data in almost all cases.


Look, I get you; it seemed weird to me as well when I got the camera and I didn't like it but I kind of got used to it. Now, for me the biggest problem is the EVF is unable to keep up with the fast action. I would even be willing to trade EVF resolution for tracking speed. For example, if there was a way to decrease the EVF resolution while in servo mode with tracking priority to get shorter blackout I would be a happy camper.
I believe this is the trick Sony is using on all of their mirrorless cameras with the exception of the A9. 

For me personally, a huge benefit of the EVF is that I don't need my reading glasses to review the photos because I can use the built-in diopter adjustment. Of course, if you're a young guy you don't care about it...for now...but wait and see, that time will come for you as well
EVF is not exactly the devil when compared to the OVF; it's just different, with pluses and minuses.
Just relax and enjoy the wonderful new technologies we're so lucky to have nowadays...
Cheers

Nelu


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## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Maybe you could harness your own energy here into petitioning Canon to throw a ton of money developing products for an ever shrinking and outdated market.



What's frustrating is this "outdated" system is being replaced by an inferior system. I don't remember that happening before in the history of technology.

Removing a feature doesn't make a superior product.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

Nelu said:


> Look, I get you; it seemed weird to me as well when I got the camera and I didn't like it but I kind of got used to it. Now, for me the biggest problem is the EVF is unable to keep up with the fast action.



That's such a severe problem that I had to switch to an SLR to get the job done after trying to do a particular job with an EVF camera.



> I would even be willing to trade EVF resolution for tracking speed. For example, if there was a way to decrease the EVF resolution while in servo mode with tracking priority to get shorter blackout I would be a happy camper.
> I believe this is the trick Sony is using on all of their mirrorless cameras with the exception of the A9.



I haven't tried an A9, but the A7ii and A7iii I tried were horribly laggy.



> For me personally, a huge benefit of the EVF is that I don't need my reading glasses to review the photos because I can use the built-in diopter adjustment.



I rarely review.



> Of course, if you're a young guy you don't care about it...for now...but wait and see, that time will come for you as well



I wear bifocal corrective lenses.



> EVF is not exactly the devil when compared to the OVF; it's just different, with pluses and minuses.
> Just relax and enjoy the wonderful new technologies we're so lucky to have nowadays...



Unfortunately, I find shooting with an EVF to be so frustrating, I'd rather not shoot at all.


----------



## victorshikhman (Dec 12, 2019)

Me: A next gen body on horizon probably means no more firmware updates to the R.

Fanboys: Liar! Canon will update firmware for years! 

Me: Security updates, new lens compatibility updates, wifi/app updates, meaninglessness other stability updates for cameras used under unique conditions. No new features.

Fanboys: The EOS R hardware can't handle new features. 

Panasonic: Here you go, GH5/GH5s owners, major autofocus updates three years later. Probably more coming. No big deal.


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## unfocused (Dec 12, 2019)

victorshikhman said:


> This is likely bad news for R owners, as Canon is unlikely to keep updating R firmware with a next gen body on the horizon.


Possibly. But, it depends. My theory (only a theory, but everything on this site is wild speculation anyway) is that Canon may keep the R "Classic" in the lineup while releasing an RII. There is nothing wrong with the R (Despite what all the whiners who have never used one think), and they need to keep making the body anyway because of the astro version they just released. So I could see them cutting the price by $100 to $200, undercut the competitors and offer the RII as an upgrade for those who are afraid to step outside the house without having two card slots. An RP at $900 and R at $1,500 and an RII at $2,400 would make for a very attractive range of prices.


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## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

unfocused said:


> (Despite what all the whiners who have never used one think)



Look, just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone. I routinely shoot things moving erratically at hundreds of miles per hour at 960mm equivalent, tightly framed (10% or less clearance on the edges). Do you do that?


----------



## Nelu (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> That's such a severe problem that I had to switch to an SLR to get the job done after trying to do a particular job with an EVF camera.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Obviously, a mirrorless camera is not for you at this moment, due to your profund dislike for the EVF. I assure you that your dislike is only matched by my aversion towards the need of doing AF microadjustments in the field, due to the crazy temperature bounces we have here in Calgary that cause the AF to go berserk with super-tele lenses. 
When the DOF is 6cm at 10m with a 600mm and the 1.4TC the differences are huge so I prefer using an EVF than having to micro-adjust the AF.


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## Michael Clark (Dec 12, 2019)

navastronia said:


> An EVF. Shows. What. The. Camera. Will. Capture.
> 
> You're in this thread continually arguing that an EVF should behave like an OVF. Why? Do you also get mad that you can't squeeze apples to get orange juice?



An EVF shows *part* of what the camera will capture. No EVF is capable of displaying the full 14-bit monochromatic luminance values collected by each photosite on a digital imaging sensor.


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## Michael Clark (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> A newer version, and full development. My camera came out in 2015, there's no sign of a future improved version, yet a camera that came out in 2019 is being replaced already. This mirrorless stuff is replacing the development on cameras I can actually use.



August 2018, actually.


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## victorshikhman (Dec 12, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Possibly. But, it depends. My theory (only a theory, but everything on this site is wild speculation anyway) is that Canon may keep the R "Classic" in the lineup while releasing an RII. There is nothing wrong with the R (Despite what all the whiners who have never used one think), and they need to keep making the body anyway because of the astro version they just released. So I could see them cutting the price by $100 to $200, undercut the competitors and offer the RII as an upgrade for those who are afraid to step outside the house without having two card slots. An RP at $900 and R at $1,500 and an RII at $2,400 would make for a very attractive range of prices.



This would be a dream scenario. Drop another $200-300 for refurbs/sales. I would buy! Those who want IBIS, new BSI sensor, 120fps in 1080p, 4k without crop, 20fps with autofocus, will gladly pay for the privilege. The rest can buy into a still very capable system for less, keep getting AI autofocus updates (animals, etc., keeping those bodies competitive), and drive lens sales. Because it makes so much sense, I'm doubtful Canon will do it.


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## Michael Clark (Dec 12, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> So you’re just a salty complainer who’s too sexy for his camera. What could you possibly get from a mark III 7D that can improve your perfected skills?
> 
> Never mind, please don’t answer any more questions. We’re all begging you. Please!



I'd be tickled pink if I could by a 7D Mark III body that had the new 90D/M6 Mark II sensor, improvements in the AF system commensurate with the improvements between the 1D X/5D Mark III AF system (to which the 7D Mark II AF system was very similar) and the 1D X Mark II/5D Mark IV AF system. Leave everything else (body construction/durability, shutter life, etc.) exactly the same as the 7D Mark II.


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## navastronia (Dec 12, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> An EVF shows *part* of what the camera will capture. No EVF is capable of displaying the full 14-bit monochromatic luminance values collected by each photosite on a digital imaging sensor.



For the love of Pete, yes, of course it does not display the *totality* of the data - it merely displays an extremely useful and workable part of it. I was speaking in shorthand, and I clarified this point pages ago, too.

While we’re at it, an EVF also can’t display all 32 million pixels of the image simultaneously, either. Not that that ever matters, anyway.


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## dwarven (Dec 12, 2019)

I just bought an EOS R a few days ago. I really like it, but now I'm wondering if I should return it while I can and wait for the Mark II. This is actually my first Canon. What do you guys think?


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## slclick (Dec 12, 2019)

victorshikhman said:


> Me: A next gen body on horizon probably means no more firmware updates to the R.
> 
> Fanboys: Liar! Canon will update firmware for years!
> 
> ...


I love how you equate historically factual events and responsible customer service with fanboi-ism. That is awesome of you. Plus, thanks for the break from the love fest those two EVF knuckleheads had us grinding our teeth over. Cheers!


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## Don Haines (Dec 12, 2019)

slclick said:


> I love how you equate historically factual events and responsible customer service with fanboi-ism. That is awesome of you. Plus, thanks for the break from the love fest those two EVF knuckleheads had us grinding our teeth over. Cheers!



and the we had the updates to a 4 year old 7D which included new features, obviously more proof that Canon never offers updates....


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## Michael Clark (Dec 12, 2019)

dwarven said:


> I just bought an EOS R a few days ago. I really like it, but now I'm wondering if I should return it while I can and wait for the Mark II. This is actually my first Canon. What do you guys think?



That depends on if you want to take any photos between now and mid 2020?


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## Nelu (Dec 12, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> That depends on if you want to take any photos between now and mid 2020?


...or if he has $2,700 in the pocket instead of $1,700!
We know for sure the EOS-R's price but we can only speculate about the Mark II. I suspect it will be closer to $3000 than $2000, to leave some breathing room for EOS-R.


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## victorshikhman (Dec 12, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> and the we had the updates to a 4 year old 7D which included new features, obviously more proof that Canon never offers updates....



Were those new features? Or did Canon cripple the camera at launch and then release a feature from its cripple vault to remain competitive?

This fanboyism is nuts. Next you'll thank Canon for unlocking the GPS module in the 6D, or releasing 24p for the 90D. This is not a company with a track record of updating products in meaningful ways through firmware, period. Cripple-hammering features and then releasing them from the cripple vault is not innovation, and it's not generosity. The EOS R's AF update may be the only time they've even come close.


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## Quirkz (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> I would like the EVF image to look the way the scene looks to my eye, because that's how I'm going to process the raw data in almost all cases.



I’m not being facetious here, genuinely interested in your use case: why can’t you just use your naked eye to see exactly that, and then benefit from the viewfinder showing what the sensor, at the limits of current tech, is going to capture? Isn’t that more useful?

As others have pointed out, everything is interpretation, and to some, it’s art - what the camera captures is irrelevant when they’re going to tweak it.

If you want just jpeg that shoots as close to what the eye sees, with no post processing, why do you want to use a high end camera? 

Is it for high res, high quality, high speed workflow such as sports? Or for particular landscape style?

Once again, asking from genuine curiosity, because right now I don’t understand why it matters, and why it’s a disadvantage.


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## Quirkz (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> I shoot mostly fast-moving subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok. So you want an evf that behaves exactly like an ovf. So.... why are you complaining so much when you can buy great dslrs with ovfs that do exactly what you want?

It’s like going to a seafood restaurant and complaining that the oysters don’t taste like chicken


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## dwarven (Dec 12, 2019)

Nelu said:


> ...or if he has $2,700 in the pocket instead of $1,700!
> We know for sure the EOS-R's price but we can only speculate about the Mark II. I suspect it will be closer to $3000 than $2000, to leave some breathing room for EOS-R.





Michael Clark said:


> That depends on if you want to take any photos between now and mid 2020?



Great points, thanks guys.


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## Joules (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> It doesn't work - at all.


It's fine if an EVF does not work _for you. _Making posts on what an EVF should do in your opinion, without aknowledging that what it does works perfectly fine for a lot of people and what you want it to do is technically challenging, and maybe impossible, makes you seem like fairly annoying.

If I see some areas of my EVF image are blown out, I can still reason about how likely I'll be able to recover them even if the full DR isn't shown.

I don’t think you gain anything from being frustrated and posting your frustrations here. There is a 5D V and 1DX III coming, maybe more DSLR, for people like you. By the time you are forced to use an EVF, just hope that it will have improved to the point we're you can give it another shot with an open mind.


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## Kit. (Dec 12, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> You're complaining that an EVF doesn't capture real life view and it's simulated. But now you want an EVF to capture full DR of the sensor? Can your naked eye in OVF know exactly what will be recoverable and usable before you expose your shot?


Are you saying that yours cannot?

That's probably the difference. A trained eye and a reliable exposure meter make many perceived benefits of the current EVFs questionable.



Photo Hack said:


> Get your engineering degree and go make yourself a camera that fits all your demands.


Have you tried that? A modern camera is hundreds if not thousands of man-years in development alone.



Photo Hack said:


> What do you want? An optical viewfinder in a mirrorless body? The technology of tomorrow now?


More attention from the camera manufacturers to people who actually know how to shoot. But I guess the market is just not there.


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## Kit. (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> What's frustrating is this "outdated" system is being replaced by an inferior system. I don't remember that happening before in the history of technology.


iPhone 1?

(Typing it on a smartphone. On-screen keyboard sucks)


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## Joules (Dec 12, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Are you saying that yours cannot?
> 
> That's probably the difference. A trained eye and a reliable exposure meter make many perceived benefits of the current EVFs questionable.


Using an EVF doesn't rob you of the ability to view exposure guides such as a histogram though, I'm not sure if there is an exposure meter in the R or RP viewfinder?

I think the point is that looking at a scene, with no electronic guidance, and knowing exactly what exposure settings you need, is maybe something you or Lee Jay may be able to do. But if you don't have this skill and need some electronic assistance (or at least benefit from it, even if you don't strictly need it), if this help should come in the form of a Histogramm, exposure indicator or live view image (displayed on the back screen or EVF) is a matter of personal preference.

And in the case of an EVF, there's no technical reason to give up on the other.


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## masterpix (Dec 12, 2019)

zonoskar said:


> That's really soon after the first edition, like in the EOS-M line.



I think that as they siad earlier, they do listen to the customers, and probably got all the needed information to develop the next generation. Short timely responce is very important since they do need to close some gaps in respect to the competitors in this market.


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## SecureGSM (Dec 12, 2019)

navastronia said:


> An EVF. Shows. What. The. Camera. Will. Capture.
> 
> You're in this thread continually arguing that an EVF should behave like an OVF. Why? Do you also get mad that you can't squeeze apples to get orange juice?


Evf shows what camera has already processed with all the attached limitations of Modern digital imaging technology. Limitations of EVF are qualitative. 
You do not to get to see the reality via EVF you see only a digital projection of the subject transformed, distilled, digitalised and low/high pass filtered. Bang.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Dec 12, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> Yes, I know...
> CF is obsolete now.
> 
> SD is also obsolete compared to SDXC UHS II, but you can still use the cards in either, albeit at reduced speed.



SDXC UHS II is just holding things over until SDExpress, which is just a smaller form factor CFExpress.


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## SecureGSM (Dec 12, 2019)

Quirkz said:


> Ok. So you want an evf that behaves exactly like an ovf. So.... why are you complaining so much when you can buy great dslrs with ovfs that do exactly what you want?
> 
> It’s like going to a seafood restaurant and complaining that the oysters don’t taste like chicken


Correct. But remind me how do I adopt all this unique RF glass to my EF DSLR body? I am really keen on 28-70/2.0 zoom lens on EF. There are quite a few other unique RF lenses out there.


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## Architect1776 (Dec 12, 2019)

masterpix said:


> I think that as they siad earlier, they do listen to the customers, and probably got all the needed information to develop the next generation. Short timely responce is very important since they do need to close some gaps in respect to the competitors in this market.



Also this was the first FF swing at mirrorless for Canon.
For a first try it is infinitely superior to Sony's first attempt.
Also Canon has provided great and useable pro lenses right out of the gate, not so loser f0.95 manual lens, and to top it all off you can use all your EF lenses with enhanced features. Not dumbed down like all the others.


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## Quarkcharmed (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Look, just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone. I routinely shoot things moving erratically at hundreds of miles per hour at 960mm equivalent, tightly framed (10% or less clearance on the edges). Do you do that?



Erratically at hundreds of mph? UFOs?


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## Kit. (Dec 12, 2019)

Joules said:


> Using an EVF doesn't rob you of the ability to view exposure guides such as a histogram though, I'm not sure if there is an exposure meter in the R or RP viewfinder?


If the exposure metering numbers are not displayed there by default, I'm sure you can turn them on in menus. But that's not my point.

If you can trust your camera's exposure meter and you see the whole scene in the viewfinder, you can point the camera to some exposure anchor in the scene, press the AE lock button, recompose and shoot. With the current EVFs, you may need a lot of fiddling just to see where your exposure anchors are.

A histogram can be useful, but definitely doesn't solve all the problems. There are other EVF logic improvements possible to address this need; they are not that hard technically to implement, but they are not there yet.


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## Don Haines (Dec 12, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Erratically at hundreds of mph? UFOs?


Probably politicians dodging the truth.......


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## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Erratically at hundreds of mph? UFOs?



Radio controlled jets.


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## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

Quirkz said:


> Ok. So you want an evf that behaves exactly like an ovf. So.... why are you complaining so much when you can buy great dslrs with ovfs that do exactly what you want?



So, where I can I get a 7D body with the 90D sensor in it?


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## Architect1776 (Dec 12, 2019)

victorshikhman said:


> Were those new features? Or did Canon cripple the camera at launch and then release a feature from its cripple vault to remain competitive?
> 
> This fanboyism is nuts. Next you'll thank Canon for unlocking the GPS module in the 6D, or releasing 24p for the 90D. This is not a company with a track record of updating products in meaningful ways through firmware, period. Cripple-hammering features and then releasing them from the cripple vault is not innovation, and it's not generosity. The EOS R's AF update may be the only time they've even come close.



Just go back to playing with your Sony.


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## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

Quirkz said:


> I’m not being facetious here, genuinely interested in your use case: why can’t you just use your naked eye to see exactly that,



Because I can't frame that way.



> and then benefit from the viewfinder showing what the sensor, at the limits of current tech, is going to capture? Isn’t that more useful?



Yes, if the EVF actually did show "what the sensor, at the limits of current tech, is going to capture". It doesn't. It shows about 4-6 stops less than what's going to be captured. And it shows it late, which makes it hard to use when tracking fast-moving subjects.


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## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> August 2018, actually.



Still - the R is on an 18 month-ish cycle, while my 7D is on a never-gonna-happen cycle. But the R is utterly useless to me. In fact, Canon doesn't make a mirrorless camera that is useful to me.

I'd pay about $300 for an R, if it had a fully articulated screen. It would be helpful when I attach a camera to my telescope because of the odd positions that result from doing so.


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## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> I'd be tickled pink if I could by a 7D Mark III body that had the new 90D/M6 Mark II sensor, improvements in the AF system commensurate with the improvements between the 1D X/5D Mark III AF system (to which the 7D Mark II AF system was very similar) and the 1D X Mark II/5D Mark IV AF system. Leave everything else (body construction/durability, shutter life, etc.) exactly the same as the 7D Mark II.



I'd still like a hybrid viewfinder. I use a Hoodman Custom Finder kit on mine now (for video) but being able to get away with that system built-in would be even better.


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## Don Haines (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Radio controlled jets.


Thats easy, just wait until they land 

in the air is a very different story. I would love to see some of your shots, could you start an images thread for them?


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## Don Haines (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> So, where I can I get a 7D body with the 90D sensor in it?


I’d buy that!


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## Quirkz (Dec 12, 2019)

victorshikhman said:


> Were those new features? Or did Canon cripple the camera at launch and then release a feature from its cripple vault to remain competitive?
> 
> This fanboyism is nuts. Next you'll thank Canon for unlocking the GPS module in the 6D, or releasing 24p for the 90D. This is not a company with a track record of updating products in meaningful ways through firmware, period. Cripple-hammering features and then releasing them from the cripple vault is not innovation, and it's not generosity. The EOS R's AF update may be the only time they've even come close.



So wait - just checking if I got this right. When Panasonic releases a firmware update adding new autofocus features, it’s awesome generous customer service. When canon does so, it’s because they crippled the camera.


You’re accusing everyone of Fanboism, but can you see your own bias here?


----------



## Andy Westwood (Dec 12, 2019)

I really like shooting with my EOS R especially since the AF firmware update and the superb new RF Lenses, however there is always room for improvements on the first-generation model.

Things I like particularly about the EOS R

AF & Eye AF with the new firmware update
Size, weight and feel of the Camera body
Touch Screen Menu
Articulating Screen
Guard that covers the sensor when changing lenses

Updates I’d like to see in a EOS R II

Touch Pad Replaced with Joystick
More Frames Per Second
Reduced blackout during hi-speed shooting (What Hi-Speed lol)
IBIS
Dual Card Slots
Sensor and Processor Updates

I don’t think this is too much to ask given Canon’s competitors Sony etc


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## Quirkz (Dec 12, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Correct. But remind me how do I adopt all this unique RF glass to my EF DSLR body? I am really keen on 28-70/2.0 zoom lens on EF. There are quite a few other unique RF lenses out there.



That’s quite a different ask though, isn’t it. I can understand why you’d want that. Canon says it’s because they’re using an evf instead of an ovf that they can even design these new lenses.

I honestly don’t know if that’s actually true or not, since I’m not a lens designer.


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## Quirkz (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> So, where I can I get a 7D body with the 90D sensor in it?



That’s a common and reasonable request. Some online YouTube reviewers mock canon for continuing to produce the 90D, and announcing the 5D4/1dx 3. And yet a lot of users still want a DSLR. Seems that canon decided that it wasn’t worth making a 7D3. So while you and a few others really want one, maybe they just didn’t sell enough. The market just wasn’t there, even though the market for a 90D and 5D is.

Doesn’t Nikon make a great mid range sport/wildlife camera? Is it possible for you to switch brands and send a clear message that these are still in demand? (I understand brand switching can be expensive and unfeasible)


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## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

Quirkz said:


> That’s a common and reasonable request. Some online YouTube reviewers mock canon for continuing to produce the 90D, and announcing the 5D4/1dx 3. And yet a lot of users still want a DSLR. Seems that canon decided that it wasn’t worth making a 7D3. So while you and a few others really want one, maybe they just didn’t sell enough. The market just wasn’t there, even though the market for a 90D and 5D is.
> 
> Doesn’t Nikon make a great mid range sport/wildlife camera? Is it possible for you to switch brands and send a clear message that these are still in demand? (I understand brand switching can be expensive and unfeasible)



I have 8 EF lenses, 3 Canon flashes, and a host of accessories, so switching would cost in excess of $10k, plus some of the lenses I use aren't available on other mounts.


----------



## masterpix (Dec 12, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> Also this was the first FF swing at mirrorless for Canon.
> For a first try it is infinitely superior to Sony's first attempt.
> Also Canon has provided great and useable pro lenses right out of the gate, not so loser f0.95 manual lens, and to top it all off you can use all your EF lenses with enhanced features. Not dumbed down like all the others.


Having said that, I stil like to see the real photonos in my vuew finder, 7DIII(?), 5Dv, 1DxIII... wish I was richer.


----------



## unfocused (Dec 12, 2019)

Quirkz said:


> Doesn’t Nikon make a great mid range sport/wildlife camera? Is it possible for you to switch brands and send a clear message that these are still in demand? (I understand brand switching can be expensive and unfeasible)



Nikon has also abandoned the segment. D500 is the last of the series for them as well. So it's not just Canon.


----------



## unfocused (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Look, just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone. I routinely shoot things moving erratically at hundreds of miles per hour at 960mm equivalent, tightly framed (10% or less clearance on the edges). Do you do that?


Way to take things out of context. 

If you are looking for an action oriented camera you are in the wrong thread. This is about the RII. It will likely be an incremental improvement over the R Classic, but won't be the action oriented model.

Or did you just come here to tell us how superior you are?


----------



## unfocused (Dec 12, 2019)

chaos2k said:


> how well does the swipe for in cold like -30C


Not minus 30C here, but I did coincidentally have to shoot some construction workers outside this morning. Using UnderArmour Storm gloves. Walking back to my truck with my fingers pretty numb I realized that I'd been using the touch screen without even thinking about it. Happy to report no problems. In fact, the gloves worked better with the Canon touchscreen than they do with an iPhone.


----------



## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Way to take things out of context.
> 
> If you are looking for an action oriented camera you are in the wrong thread. This is about the RII. It will likely be an incremental improvement over the R Classic, but won't be the action oriented model.



There are no action-oriented mirrorless cameras that work, because EVFs are too slow.


----------



## Ozarker (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> There are no action-oriented mirrorless cameras that work, because EVFs are too slow.


Big deal.


----------



## Photo Hack (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> There are no action-oriented mirrorless cameras that work, because EVFs are too slow.



“Verdict. The Sony A9 II is the fastest, most ferocious full-frame sports camera we've ever used. Its blistering speed and autofocus performance are matched only by its phenomenal connectivity, which promises to be a game changer for pro shooters.”

I have no experience with this camera but it seems to be good enough or “better” for a lot of sports and action shooters vs DSLR. The EVF actually has the advantage of no blackout vs a DSLR. I only see performance getting better and cheaper within the next few years.


----------



## SteveC (Dec 12, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> In the auto sales industry there is a word for people who test drive every single car and never buy complain and never buy.



I'm not in the auto sales industry, but I'd love to know that people like that have dealt with every asshole car salesman I've had to deal with; then I'd call them "my avenger." (Some are good, most are assholes.)


----------



## dwarven (Dec 12, 2019)

There's lots of talk about people wanting 2 card slots in this. Do you all usually need that if you're shooting an important event?


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## FramerMCB (Dec 12, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Opryland Hotel? Rather, that's what it was called 30 years ago.


Certainly a Gaylord Resort property somewhere...


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## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> “Verdict. The Sony A9 II is the fastest, most ferocious full-frame sports camera we've ever used. Its blistering speed and autofocus performance are matched only by its phenomenal connectivity, which promises to be a game changer for pro shooters.”
> 
> I have no experience with this camera but it seems to be good enough or “better” for a lot of sports shooters vs DSLR. The EVF actually has the advantage of no blackout vs a DSLR. I only see performance getting better and cheaper within the next few years.



Well, there's never been an A9 to test in my city. The A7iii's viewfinder is awful, and people I've talked to say the A9 is similar or slightly worse.


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## Photo Hack (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Well, there's never been an A9 to test in my city. The A7iii's viewfinder is awful, and people I've talked to say the A9 is similar or slightly worse.





I guess all I can do is recommend this book to you. Good luck in your quest for the perfect camera during the mirrorless revolution.


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## Quirkz (Dec 12, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Nikon has also abandoned the segment. D500 is the last of the series for them as well. So it's not just Canon.


So either the market was really small, or most of those users were happy with an evf. Or both Nikon and canon are making a mistake, and will introduce a replacement eventually.


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## unfocused (Dec 12, 2019)

Quirkz said:


> So either the market was really small, or most of those users were happy with an evf. Or both Nikon and canon are making a mistake, and will introduce a replacement eventually.


I'd like for it to be #3, but I'm not optimistic. On the other hand, I expect that in about three years the 90DII will have caught up with the 7D II, but with a better sensor.


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## SteveC (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> I'm a married father of two.



My condolences to your family.


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## Quarkcharmed (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Radio controlled jets.


That's a very unusual niche genre, might really be better to stick to DSLR because of the EVF's lag.
But I disagree on benefits of seeing the actual scene through OVF, an EVF view with exposure compensation is more useful in most of the imaginable scenarios, including radio controlled jets.


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## Lee Jay (Dec 12, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> That's a very unusual niche genre, might really be better to stick to DSLR because of the EVF's lag.
> But I disagree on benefits of seeing the actual scene through OVF, an EVF view with exposure compensation is more useful in most of the imaginable scenarios, including radio controlled jets.



With high-speed subjects, the lighting is changing millisecond to millisecond. You don't have time to adjust so you have to trust the meter. One problem I had with the A7ii I tried was that it responded super-slowly to changes in lighting. For example, if I was inside and pointed the camera through a window, it would take about a second to go from indoor exposure to outdoor exposure, meaning the EVF was pure white for about a second when I did that. Same with going back - the EVF would be pure black for about a second.


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## scyrene (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> With high-speed subjects, the lighting is changing millisecond to millisecond. You don't have time to adjust so you have to trust the meter. One problem I had with the A7ii I tried was that it responded super-slowly to changes in lighting. For example, if I was inside and pointed the camera through a window, it would take about a second to go from indoor exposure to outdoor exposure, meaning the EVF was pure white for about a second when I did that. Same with going back - the EVF would be pure black for about a second.



I find the camera's metering very imprecise/easily fooled. I like to look at the LCD image preview because it gives me enough information - combined with my experience - to determine if a shot is useable or not.

PS what are radio-controlled jets??


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## Michael Clark (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> I'd still like a hybrid viewfinder. I use a Hoodman Custom Finder kit on mine now (for video) but being able to get away with that system built-in would be even better.



Good for you. I don't do video with my 7D Mark II, and wouldn't with a 7D Mark III. That's what video cameras, or even my FF bodies, are for.


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## Michael Clark (Dec 12, 2019)

Quirkz said:


> That’s a common and reasonable request. Some online YouTube reviewers mock canon for continuing to produce the 90D, and announcing the 5D4/1dx 3. And yet a lot of users still want a DSLR. Seems that canon decided that it wasn’t worth making a 7D3. So while you and a few others really want one, maybe they just didn’t sell enough. The market just wasn’t there, even though the market for a 90D and 5D is.
> 
> Doesn’t Nikon make a great mid range sport/wildlife camera? Is it possible for you to switch brands and send a clear message that these are still in demand? (I understand brand switching can be expensive and unfeasible)



Perhaps the reason Canon isn't making a 7D Mark III is because they sold *too many* 7D Mark II bodies that Canon thinks ate into 1D X/1D X Mark II sales.

Nikon has officially announced there will be no replacement for the D500, Nikon's 7D type of camera. So while the D500 is a little more recent and an overall better camera for the intended use case of the D500/7D Mark II, that path is also a dead-end in the long term.


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## Michael Clark (Dec 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Well, there's never been an A9 to test in my city. The A7iii's viewfinder is awful, and people I've talked to say the A9 is similar or slightly worse.



People that were using the α9 I've stood next to on the sideline at sporting events had pretty good results in print and online by the next morning...


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## Michael Clark (Dec 12, 2019)

unfocused said:


> I'd like for it to be #3, but I'm not optimistic. On the other hand, I expect that in about three years the 90DII will have caught up with the 7D II, but with a better sensor.



I doubt Canon will ever give another x0D a magnesium alloy body (the 50D was the last) , a concurrent 1D/5D AF system (no x0D has had one), and a more durable shutter like the 7D series had. Both my 7D and 7D Mark II took all kinds of abuse that a 60D or 70D could not have survived. The 90D has a shutter only rated for 120,000 actuations. I was past that with my 7D Mark II in 2 1/2 years.


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## SecureGSM (Dec 13, 2019)

Quirkz said:


> That’s quite a different ask though, isn’t it. I can understand why you’d want that. Canon says it’s because they’re using an evf instead of an ovf that they can even design these new lenses.
> 
> I honestly don’t know if that’s actually true or not, since I’m not a lens designer.


Uhm. They say it is because of a shorter RF flange distance and wide Mount throat that they can afford to design lenses with a larger rear elements and zooms like 28-70/2.0. 
Such a lens is impossible on EF.
In reference to what you said: yes ovf is no doubt a better tool for a skilled photographers. But RF glass makes me wanting to trade in OVF for EVF + RF Mount. Price aside, I see how this may afford me a cleaner shots in low light run and gun scenarios and candid portraits in ever awfully lit receptions and venues. 
And with an extending 70-200 stubby lens. At last I will afford storing both cameras with 24-70 and 70-200 lens attached in my mid sized camera backpack without necessity to store 24-70 disconnected from camera body.


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## Quirkz (Dec 13, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Uhm. They say it is because of a shorter RF flange distance and wide Mount throat that they can afford to design lenses with a larger rear elements and zooms like 28-70/2.0.
> Such a lens is impossible on EF.



I may have skipped a few steps in my logic, my apologies. You’re right that’s it’s the RF Mount vs EF; but an RF mount requires the EVF, as the short flange distance is only possible because they dumped the mirror. That’s why I said the RF lenses are only possible because they dropped the O for E.


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## SteveC (Dec 13, 2019)

Quirkz said:


> I may have skipped a few steps in my logic, my apologies. You’re right that’s it’s the RF Mount vs EF; but an RF mount requires the EVF, as the short flange distance is only possible because they dumped the mirror. That’s why I said the RF lenses are only possible because they dropped the O for E.



I took your original statement a different way. The 24-240 has such pronounced barrel distortion that it would likely be obvious in an OVF. So they couldn't make that lens for an OVF camera (even if flange distance weren't an issue). They had to issue a firmware update for the R and RP before they released that lens, so that the camera could correct it...and people looking through the EVF would, as a matter of course, see the adjusted image. Thus, the EVF _itself_ made that lens possible.


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## AlanF (Dec 13, 2019)

SteveC said:


> I took your original statement a different way. The 24-240 has such pronounced barrel distortion that it would likely be obvious in an OVF. So they couldn't make that lens for an OVF camera (even if flange distance weren't an issue). They had to issue a firmware update for the R and RP before they released that lens, so that the camera could correct it...and people looking through the EVF would, as a matter of course, see the adjusted image. Thus, the EVF _itself_ made that lens possible.


The lens would still be possible with an OVF but we would just have to put up with framing a distorted image, which is not beyond the capabilities of most of us, I would have thought.


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## Architect1776 (Dec 13, 2019)

masterpix said:


> Having said that, I stil like to see the real photonos in my vuew finder, 7DIII(?), 5Dv, 1DxIII... wish I was richer.



We shall see.
Canon has to make money and stay competitive in a market driven on latest fads. Nikon is a perfect example of failing to stay current by keeping the old F mount 30 years beyond it's expiration date.
Canon is savvy enough to keep most people happy. Only the Sony fanboys on You Tube etc. and a very few other Canon bashers hate everything Canon does. Yes, Canon makes mistakes but they do not keep compounding them as others seem to do. Yes they are conservative but when they do it it is right more often than not.
IF DSLRs are in the cards to keep making money they will continue to do so. But if sales go lame, no matter how a very small few lament it the DSLR will go away. Remember all companies need to make money and lots of it to stay afloat in the world market. The Leica M2-3 were great cameras, why were such wonderful cameras discontinued? SALES.


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## Architect1776 (Dec 13, 2019)

dwarven said:


> There's lots of talk about people wanting 2 card slots in this. Do you all usually need that if you're shooting an important event?



They are just regurgitating the Vlogger mantra mindlessly.


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## Lee Jay (Dec 13, 2019)

I use 2 card slots to create a real-time backup. I once had a CF card go bad at an event, and I had a hard time downloading images. Fortunately, I was able to recover all but 8 and Sandisk was able to recover 7 of those, but that experience made me value dual card slots. It took 2 months to get those images. With dual card slots, I'd have lost zero images, and had them all off the cards in minutes instead of months.


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## dba101 (Dec 13, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> I use 2 card slots to create a real-time backup. I once had a CF card go bad at an event, and I had a hard time downloading images. Fortunately, I was able to recover all but 8 and Sandisk was able to recover 7 of those, but that experience made me value dual card slots. It took 2 months to get those images. With dual card slots, I'd have lost zero images, and had them all off the cards in minutes instead of months.



Ok, everybody over to 'card slots' please, Jay is onto card slots now.


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## Lee Jay (Dec 13, 2019)

dba101 said:


> Ok, everybody over to 'card slots' please, Jay is onto card slots now.



Look at the post directly above mine.


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## reef58 (Dec 13, 2019)

What's wrong with wanting 2 card slots? It certainly is not mandatory but if given the choice I will take two over one. I am not going to do paid work with a one slot camera unless I have a way to back up the images onsite. I guess different risk profiles for different folks. I am a glass half full kind of guy.


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## unfocused (Dec 13, 2019)

reef58 said:


> What's wrong with wanting 2 card slots? It certainly is not mandatory but if given the choice I will take two over one. I am not going to do paid work with a one slot camera unless I have a way to back up the images onsite. I guess different risk profiles for different folks. I am a glass half full kind of guy.


Wouldn't worrying about a second card slot actually make you a "glass half empty" kind of guy?


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## Stichus III (Dec 13, 2019)

The recently announced Canon R price drop to USD 1.499, appears to confirm the rumor that the Mark II is on the way.


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## tron (Dec 13, 2019)

NorskHest said:


> Gross. I might be alone in this category but I hate that body and ergos, make it feel and operate like a 5d or 1d and I’m sold until then I’ll be stuck with a mirror till I die


I just got EOS R and as an EOS user since 1988 and a DSLR EOS user since 2007 and I have to agree with you.
On its defence it is not meant for sports and/or birding so there is more time for handling but still I miss the 5D and 7D series buttons (and joystic) and back wheel (and the additional button for AF point pattern selection). Of course I intend to enjoy using it. It's small, light , has a capable sensor (despite the Canon haters) and can have some fabulus 2.8 zooms and 1.2 lenses in front of it in the next years


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## padam (Dec 13, 2019)

Stichus III said:


> The recently announced Canon R price drop to USD 1.499, appears to confirm the rumor that the Mark II is on the way.


That does not confirm anything, except they have a good amount of stock and want to sell more cameras and RF lenses. If people don't have an RF-mount camera they can't buy those lenses, simple as that.
The original prices were always too high (even on the RP).


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## reef58 (Dec 13, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Wouldn't worrying about a second card slot actually make you a "glass half empty" kind of guy?



You are right totally miswrote that


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## Quirkz (Dec 13, 2019)

reef58 said:


> What's wrong with wanting 2 card slots? It certainly is not mandatory but if given the choice I will take two over one. I am not going to do paid work with a one slot camera unless I have a way to back up the images onsite. I guess different risk profiles for different folks. I am a glass half full kind of guy.



Nothing wrong with wanting two card slots. A lot of negativity has sprung up around the topic because some people claim the R is not usable by professionals, and is a terrible camera because it has only one. Which is not true (because professionals ARE using it), and riles everyone up 

You are well within your rights to say that you’d much prefer it if it has two cards slots, if that’s what you’d prefer! And you did so without implying that everyone else is an idiot, so thank you for that


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## SteveC (Dec 13, 2019)

AlanF said:


> The lens would still be possible with an OVF but we would just have to put up with framing a distorted image, which is not beyond the capabilities of most of us, I would have thought.



OK...yeah. Certainly it's physically possible, and certainly some photographers would go ahead and frame their shots, planning to correct in PhotoShop or Gimp or whatever. But I strongly suspect that it wouldn't sell nearly as well if people knew they had to deal with its shortcomings rather than the software doing it. (More cynically: if its shortcomings weren't almost completely hidden--at great effort--from view.) Given that, maybe they wouldn't have bothered producing it in the first place. So I'll stand by my statement that the EVF made it possible--from a marketing standpoint.


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## Dantana (Dec 13, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Uhm. They say it is because of a shorter RF flange distance and wide Mount throat that they can afford to design lenses with a larger rear elements and zooms like 28-70/2.0.
> Such a lens is impossible on EF.
> In reference to what you said: yes ovf is no doubt a better tool for a skilled photographers. But RF glass makes me wanting to trade in OVF for EVF + RF Mount. Price aside, I see how this may afford me a cleaner shots in low light run and gun scenarios and candid portraits in ever awfully lit receptions and venues.
> And with an extending 70-200 stubby lens. At last I will afford storing both cameras with 24-70 and 70-200 lens attached in my mid sized camera backpack without necessity to store 24-70 disconnected from camera body.


I'd say an OVF is a different tool, not a better tool, for skilled photographers than an EVF. Better for some things, not for others.


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## Stichus III (Dec 13, 2019)

padam said:


> That does not confirm anything, except they have a good amount of stock and want to sell more cameras and RF lenses. If people don't have an RF-mount camera they can't buy those lenses, simple as that.



You are contradicting yourself here.

In any event we often see huge price drops months before a camera is replaced. I know because that's when I usually buy my camera bodies. I am speaking from experience here.


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## reef58 (Dec 13, 2019)

Quirkz said:


> Nothing wrong with wanting two card slots. A lot of negativity has sprung up around the topic because some people claim the R is not usable by professionals, and is a terrible camera because it has only one. Which is not true (because professionals ARE using it), and riles everyone up
> 
> You are well within your rights to say that you’d much prefer it if it has two cards slots, if that’s what you’d prefer! And you did so without implying that everyone else is an idiot, so thank you for that



There are work arounds for only one card slot. You can backup onsite to a SDD or similar. Two slots are not a requirement, but I am not going to say no to them.


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## Photo Hack (Dec 13, 2019)

Stichus III said:


> The recently announced Canon R price drop to USD 1.499, appears to confirm the rumor that the Mark II is on the way.


Has anyone been watching the prices on the 5DS this season? Grey market has been dipping close to $1,000 new. I can’t think of any better reason than major drop in demand or big supply dump off in preparation for a replacement. 

I don’t work for canon so it’s clearly speculation based on market and business experience. Maybe a combination of factors. But clearly I don’t see demand for these cameras staying the same or increasing if their replacement is imminent.


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## slclick (Dec 13, 2019)

Stichus III said:


> You are contradicting yourself here.
> 
> In any event we often see huge price drops months before a camera is replaced. I know because that's when I usually buy my camera bodies. I am speaking from experience here.


Hello? * Holiday season*. 

That comes before stock, announcements, body selection, patents and even believe it or not, individual forum member desires!.


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## Photo Hack (Dec 13, 2019)

slclick said:


> Hello? * Holiday season*.
> 
> That comes before stock, announcements, body selection, patents and even believe it or not, individual forum member desires!.



I understand that and regularly try to wait to buy the bulk of our gear for our studio until mid December. We got 2 Mark IVs gray market for $1,800 years back. But I’ve never seen Canon rebates surpass eBay promos on gray market gear. Especially with Adorama and BH bundles on top of that. 

I got R, adapter, and flashpoint V1 for $1,499 today. That’s the price of ebays best deal on gray market body with no adapter. Body only.


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## slclick (Dec 13, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> I understand that and regularly try to wait to buy the bulk of our gear for our studio until mid December. We got 2 Mark IVs gray market for $1,800 years back. But I’ve never seen Canon rebates surpass eBay promos on gray market gear. Especially with Adorama and BH bundles on top of that.
> 
> I got R, adapter, and flashpoint V1 for $1,499 today. That’s the price of ebays best deal on gray market body with no adapter. Body only.


Ah the Gray Market gamble, some say no problem, I believe those with problems don't say since they know they will be scolded. Reminds me of Da Mayor's line from Do The Right Thing.


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## Photo Hack (Dec 13, 2019)

slclick said:


> Ah the Gray Market gamble, some say no problem, I believe those with problems don't say since they know they will be scolded. Reminds me of Da Mayor's line from Do The Right Thing.


When you’re buying a lot of bodies that gamble gets spread out. I think we’ve bought 8 in the past three years. Do the math on the savings haha. Only had one issue with a PCB board that went out after 11 months. I didn’t even try to get it warrantied. Just paid the $350 after CPS discount.


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## slclick (Dec 13, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> When you’re buying a lot of bodies that gamble gets spread out. I think we’ve bought 8 in the past three years. Do the math on the savings haha. Only had one issue with a PCB board that went out after 11 months. I didn’t even try to get it warrantied. Just paid the $350 after CPS discount.


'Just'... there you go.


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## jolyonralph (Dec 13, 2019)

It's interesting looking at the parallels between the EOS R launch and the original launch of the EOS film SLRs in 1987.

The EOS 650 was launched in 1987 as a mid-range camera. The sort of thing that professionals could justify using (but would no doubt complain about missing features) but amateurs could also just about afford.

This was followed less than a year by the cheaper EOS 750 model.

The EOS 650 and the slightly improved EOS 620 were replaced by the next model, the EOS 600, just over two years later.

It was two and a half years later than the first 1 series EOS was launched, and three years later than the EOS 10 was launched, the first in what would now be classed as the '5 series' of high end but less than 1 series cameras.

Those timings look like they're mirrored (ahem) quite well in the EOS R/RP launch and the prospective EOS R II and future EOS 1R


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## slclick (Dec 13, 2019)

jolyonralph said:


> It's interesting looking at the parallels between the EOS R launch and the original launch of the EOS film SLRs in 1987.
> 
> The EOS 650 was launched in 1987 as a mid-range camera. The sort of thing that professionals could justify using (but would no doubt complain about missing features) but amateurs could also just about afford.
> 
> ...


Good post however wouldn't the EOS 3/5 be more along the lines instead of the 10?


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## Cryhavoc (Dec 13, 2019)

reef58 said:


> What's wrong with wanting 2 card slots? It certainly is not mandatory but if given the choice I will take two over one. I am not going to do paid work with a one slot camera unless I have a way to back up the images onsite. I guess different risk profiles for different folks. I am a glass half full kind of guy.



but we do have a way to immediately back up
transfer the images wireless as you shoot them, to either a phone or a thin lightweight tablet (if travelling).
I setup my shots to transfer immediately via wireless to a surface tablet, and also downloaded the card to the surface tablet each night to clear off the memory cards.


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## Photo Hack (Dec 13, 2019)

slclick said:


> 'Just'... there you go.


Yeah “just” $350, because that is less than the $11,000 we would’ve spent with US bodies. We do own many US bodies as well, including the two I bought today.

I would say the gamble is worth it. So Scold me all you want. I still need to incur $10,650 in repairs before I break even.


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## SteveC (Dec 13, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Has anyone been watching the prices on the 5DS this season? Grey market has been dipping close to $1,000 new. I can’t think of any better reason than major drop in demand or big supply dump off in preparation for a replacement.
> 
> I don’t work for canon so it’s clearly speculation based on market and business experience. Maybe a combination of factors. But clearly I don’t see demand for these cameras staying the same or increasing if their replacement is imminent.



Ah, the 5DS...with the sensor that I wish had been in the R. Something of similar capability sure ought to go into an R body (go ahead and update it if you can, though).

Seriously: Non gray market price still seems to be north of $3000.


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## Photo Hack (Dec 14, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Ah, the 5DS...with the sensor that I wish had been in the R. Something of similar capability sure ought to go into an R body (go ahead and update it if you can, though).
> 
> Seriously: Non gray market price still seems to be north of $3000.


Yeah it’s crazy. Ebay has new ones for $1119.99 right now. Pair that with the 10% eBay bucks if you get the offer and you’re at $1,000.00 for a new 5DS.

People can poo poo gray market all they want. I’m not spending $2,300 more on the same exact body. You technically still have a one year warranty Through the seller (if you can stomach the process) and I’m told Canon will honor it....I have no experience with that yet.

Worth the gamble. I could buy three bodies and have two catastrophic failures and still be ahead.

My question is how cheap are these sellers getting them from Canon right now to justify that much of a price difference? I know ebay kicks in some money to their sellers to compete with other retailers...Adorama doesn’t have them in stock. Haven’t checked BH, don’t care. So I'm not inclined to believe it's an overstock or Holiday sale going on here. 

People can have differing opinions on why the drastic price cuts, doesn't mean imminent replacement can’t be one of them.


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## slclick (Dec 14, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Yeah it’s crazy. Ebay has new ones for $1119.99 right now. Pair that with the 10% eBay bucks if you get the offer and you’re at $1,000.00 for a new 5DS.
> 
> People can poo poo gray market all they want. I’m not spending $2,300 more on the same exact body. You technically still have a one year warranty Through the seller (if you can stomach the process) and I’m told Canon will honor it....I have no experience with that yet.
> 
> ...


Yeh that is an amazing deal. I would love to hear some success stories with gray market buyers who had their warranties honored by Canon. Imho, it should be. Too much control and restriction in the world these days. But I feel that the first time I go for it, I'll have an issue and be SOL.


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## slclick (Dec 14, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Yeah “just” $350, because that is less than the $11,000 we would’ve spent with US bodies. We do own many US bodies as well, including the two I bought today.
> 
> I would say the gamble is worth it. So Scold me all you want. I still need to incur $10,650 in repairs before I break even.


I get where you're coming from and don't blame you for going that route but you are the exception to the rule. Most of us own one body, MAYBE two and usually the 2nd is a 'lesser' body such as an M. I'm a 4 body shooter but two are film, one EOS and one medium format.


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## Photo Hack (Dec 14, 2019)

slclick said:


> Yeh that is an amazing deal. I would love to hear some success stories with gray market buyers who had their warranties honored by Canon. Imho, it should be. Too much control and restriction in the world these days. But I feel that the first time I go for it, I'll have an issue and be SOL.


I'm sure there's probably a lot. Just looking at how many are sold on these listings on eBay is baffling. Just one of the 5Ds sellers has sold nearly 500 in the past few days. That's not a popular camera by any means. I see a lot of these listings sell thousands in a few days. For every horror story you might hear, there's thousands of non stories. Cameras functioning like any other new camera. 

I know I'm an exception but some of the bodies I'm talking about have been upgrades, so the older ones were used for a year or two, then sold for literally a couple hundred dollars less than the original purchase price. Before anyone starts feeling sorry for Adorama, BH, or other big retailers....they started out selling gray market. It's the small shops that suffer, but like most of us, there aren't any shops within a few hours drive anymore.


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## Photo Hack (Dec 14, 2019)

I forgot I did have a bad experience with a Sigma 135 art lens. Had bad front focus and couldn't adjust with USB dock to acceptable performance. PayPal stepped in and forced a return, but I think I remember having to pay about $50 in return shipping to Hong Kong. That wasn't a fun experience. Most of our lenses are used and US versions and I think I've only bought 2 gray market lenses. I've had bad experiences with used lenses just as much, so there you have it.


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## reef58 (Dec 14, 2019)

Cryhavoc said:


> but we do have a way to immediately back up
> transfer the images wireless as you shoot them, to either a phone or a thin lightweight tablet (if travelling).
> I setup my shots to transfer immediately via wireless to a surface tablet, and also downloaded the card to the surface tablet each night to clear off the memory cards.



Thats fine and dandy if you are somewhere with a good signal and a large cellular data plan. I prefer 2 card slots and a hard drive to back the data up to in the field. I don't think two cards are a deal breaker, but given the choice between one and two I am taking two.


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## SecureGSM (Dec 14, 2019)

Cryhavoc said:


> but we do have a way to immediately back up
> transfer the images wireless as you shoot them, to either a phone or a thin lightweight tablet (if travelling).
> I setup my shots to transfer immediately via wireless to a surface tablet, and also downloaded the card to the surface tablet each night to clear off the memory cards.


Wireless transfer is slow and kills your battery fast. How long does it take to transfer 2000 RAW shots for you? 2000 shots could be taken over 2-3 hours time period is an unfortunate reality for event shooters. With Average file size 35Mb each that’s 70Gb + to transfer over wifi... good luck doing that in 2-3 hours period while you keep taking shots and your Camera battery would have to support all that.


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## koenkooi (Dec 14, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Ah, the 5DS...with the sensor that I wish had been in the R. Something of similar capability sure ought to go into an R body (go ahead and update it if you can, though).[..]



That sensor doesn't have DPAF, so focussing would be a lot slower with more hunting.


----------



## koenkooi (Dec 14, 2019)

reef58 said:


> Thats fine and dandy if you are somewhere with a good signal and a large cellular data plan. I prefer 2 card slots and a hard drive to back the data up to in the field. I don't think two cards are a deal breaker, but given the choice between one and two I am taking two.



The Canon wireless transfer defaults to turning the camera into an access point, so cell and wifi coverage as well as your data plan don't matter for that. 
Unless you enabled cloud sync for your phone on cellular data, then you're cellular plan will take a big hit


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## reef58 (Dec 14, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> The Canon wireless transfer defaults to turning the camera into an access point, so cell and wifi coverage as well as your data plan don't matter for that.
> Unless you enabled cloud sync for your phone on cellular data, then you're cellular plan will take a big hit



Another brain freeze. Then again no thanks I will use a backup drive. It is more efficient for me.


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## tron (Dec 14, 2019)

reef58 said:


> Another brain freeze. Then again no thanks I will use a backup drive. It is more efficient for me.


Plus and it is a big plus the wireless image transfer happens for jpegs not raws


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## Michael Clark (Dec 14, 2019)

Stichus III said:


> The recently announced Canon R price drop to USD 1.499, appears to confirm the rumor that the Mark II is on the way.



It's currently $1,299 at B&H with an extra $200 promo discount.


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## Michael Clark (Dec 14, 2019)

slclick said:


> 'Just'... there you go.



Savings on 8 gray market bodies at about $800 less for each = $6,400
Cost of what would have otherwise been a warranty repair: $350
Net savings: $6,050.


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## sportskjutaren (Dec 14, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> There are no action-oriented mirrorless cameras that work, because EVFs are too slow.



First of all, I do not think Canon is "bad" in any way.
I truly dislike "fanboy-ism", and I love the competition between the brands.
Since it gives people/photographers better products.

I used Canon gear for 10 years.
10 years of experience shooting sports. Even at an international level.
(Right now I´m having a "timeout" from photography, I will hover get back to it pretty soon).
(You can find my portfolio with references and tear sheets here: https://jkpgsportsphoto.photoshelter.com/).
Earlier this year I did a two-week-long evaluation on Sony gear.
Two A9 Bodies and several lenses.
I was truly skeptical about some things.
And that for sure included the EVF.
*I was seriously surprised and I can honestly say that I prefer the EFV on the A9 over the OVF on the 1Dx mkII.*
You can read my evaluation here:
https://blog.jkpg-sports.photo/2019/06/im-seriously-surprised-or-my.html


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## Photo Hack (Dec 14, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Savings on 8 gray market bodies at about $800 less for each = $6,400
> Cost of what would have otherwise been a warranty repair: $350
> Net savings: $6,050.


At the time Canon 5D Mark IV's were selling for $3,300 or so and I got them in the $1,900 range and also got a 10% eBay bucks promo. That's a savings of about $1,500 per body. The $800 example may be true of today as I haven't been paying attention to the 5D bodies as we're transitioning to mirrorless right now.

Some of our bodies we saved $1,500 on and others were in the $800 range. But it averaged out to just over $1,300 each I believe.

The real deal right now is on the 5Ds. Like $2,500 difference or something like that?


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## slclick (Dec 14, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> It's currently $1,299 at B&H with an extra $200 promo discount.


Please share the extra $200 promo, I'm not seeing it


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## navastronia (Dec 14, 2019)

slclick said:


> Please share the extra $200 promo, I'm not seeing it



I haven't been able to get the $200 promo to appear, even through an email link.


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## Photo Hack (Dec 14, 2019)

slclick said:


> Please share the extra $200 promo, I'm not seeing it


They’re one time usage from what I’ve read. So someone who isn’t using the promo would have to share it I think. 

The other option is getting the one from Adorama with the free Flashpoint Zoom flash and selling that for about $200. It’s a $270 flash. So that takes you down to $1,299. 

Or Amazon is matching the promo and there’s a cash back option if you have their card to match BHs deal or close to it. 

Look it up on slickdeals.com for more info.


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## Photo Hack (Dec 14, 2019)

sportskjutaren said:


> First of all, I do not think Canon is "bad" in any way.
> I truly dislike "fanboy-ism", and I love the competition between the brands.
> Since it gives people/photographers better products.
> 
> ...


Wow you have great work and your review was well done. It’s not my line of work, but I knew Sony’s advancements with the A9 is something I feel a lot of Canon Nikon shooters underestimate. 

If Canon is as serious about mirrorless as they’ve recently appeared to be, they have a lot to learn from Sony. Especially in customer feedback as that’s not the first time I’ve heard about your experience with that.


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## Ozarker (Dec 14, 2019)

reef58 said:


> What's wrong with wanting 2 card slots? It certainly is not mandatory but if given the choice I will take two over one. I am not going to do paid work with a one slot camera unless I have a way to back up the images onsite. I guess different risk profiles for different folks. I am a glass half full kind of guy.


The problem isn't wanting two card slots. The problem is with people saying two card slots differentiate a dual card camera as "pro" from one with just one slot. They take the shooter completely out of the equation and that smacks of gear snobbery... even though old pro 35mm film shooters only used on film roll. Two card slots do not make one a professional. Some want it. Some couldn't care less. However, saying two cards slots make a camera a professional camera is just plain stupid. There is no such thing as a pro camera, just pro photographers. Problem is, enthusiast outnumber pro shooters by a a long shot. The pros just happen to be more vocal because of ego. Redundancy is nice to have, but it doesn't make the shooter any better at anything. Same bad or good shooter no matter what.


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## dwarven (Dec 15, 2019)

reef58 said:


> Thats fine and dandy if you are somewhere with a good signal and a large cellular data plan. I prefer 2 card slots and a hard drive to back the data up to in the field. I don't think two cards are a deal breaker, but given the choice between one and two I am taking two.



That's not how it works, at least in the R. You turn on wifi in the camera and it creates its own network that you then connect your phone to. So it doesn't matter if you're in a city or in the mountains. It will work the same either way. Transfer speeds are actually pretty quick and the 1.6 update fixes an issue where your camera would lock up if you're doing long bursts. Once you're in an area with wifi or a good connection you can set up your phone to automatically backup your gallery to a cloud service. Now that I think about it it's actually probably even better to do it that way than using two card slots, as a water resistant phone with a good case is more durable than a camera. Bring a battery pack for your phone and 2 or 3 extra batteries for your camera and you should be good to go for a whole day.

The caveat is that they are JPGs, which is, understandably, a dealbreaker for some people. However, I imagine that once cameras start shipping with AC access points, then transferring RAW files will become trivial.


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## sportskjutaren (Dec 15, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Wow you have great work and your review was well done.
> ...
> Especially in customer feedback as that’s not the first time I’ve heard about your experience with that.



Thanks!
*I do really hope that some Canon people are "lurking around" here.
I would honestly love to see Canon (& Nikon) catch up on Sony in several areas.*
(As I wrote above, competition is a great thing).
For Canon to actually do that.
It´s my honest opinion, based on my personal experience.
That they will need to open their ears a whole lot to their customers.
Start asking their pro customers about what they can improve.
And actually listen to it.

Sadly I can´t even remember Canon asking me what to improve.
I´ve suggested some things for them. 
One thing was implemented. Some years after I, and several others asked for it.
(In-camera cropping. Submitting images straight from the camera for "live publishing", something I´ve done for more than 200 games.
That makes a big difference).
Other things have not happened yet.

In comparison, every single person I meet from Sony asked me what could be improved.
Often several times. 
Most of the things I told them about, they were already aware of, from other photographers.
And most of those things were improved on the A9 II.

Canon pretty much listens actively only to their Ambassadors, and doesn't really seem to listen to the rest of us.

I do really hope that Canon improves big times in this area in the future.


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## dba101 (Dec 15, 2019)

Give me a break.


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## telemaque (Dec 15, 2019)

sportskjutaren said:


> First of all, I do not think Canon is "bad" in any way.
> I truly dislike "fanboy-ism", and I love the competition between the brands.
> Since it gives people/photographers better products.
> 
> ...



First of all, congratulations for the pictures. They are Beautiful !
I very much like the picture of the French flags during world cup... Yes I am French, obviously!
What I like in your post is that you show examples to illustrate your statement.

I am not a pro like you but an amateur that spends some time and money in photography and videography.
I have seen in the last years the competition becoming more than serious. It is no more a Canon or Nikon world.
I spoke with a pro photographer in Paris in my prefered photo shop and he had moved to Sony A9 and showed me many B&W beautiful pictures.
They looked a bit like Leica's type of photos. Impressive.

The game is changing, the offer is larger and some specific requests especially in DSLR video world are better listen to in other brand names than Canon.
Like no headphone jack on the 6D, no 4K quality in many DSLR bodies for a long time etc.
This has damaged the image of Canon somehow.

EVF is clearly needed for video shooters... they might be helpful in Photography but are simply a need in Video.
However, from your explanation you really enjoyed EVF in Photography... so I read your statement with interest !

In Video, EVF is the only way to correct the focus as you record...
Liveview was a good attemp to go around that need but an EVF is simply better in Video.

An EVF request a *mirrorless body* and Canon is seriously investing in mirrorless bodies...
So maybe DSLR video shooters loving Canon's products might be listen to?!
Maybe Canon has finally understood DSLR video shooters are a good commercial target?
And yes we ARE! And no we are not the same target as the C camera series professional target.

Let's hope this announcement is showing Canon has understood the needs of DSLR video shooters also.
If that is the case, Canon will be delighted by some sales they today do not see.


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## Photo Hack (Dec 15, 2019)

dwarven said:


> That's not how it works, at least in the R. You turn on wifi in the camera and it creates its own network that you then connect your phone to. So it doesn't matter if you're in a city or in the mountains. It will work the same either way. Transfer speeds are actually pretty quick and the 1.6 update fixes an issue where your camera would lock up if you're doing long bursts. Once you're in an area with wifi or a good connection you can set up your phone to automatically backup your gallery to a cloud service. Now that I think about it it's actually probably even better to do it that way than using two card slots, as a water resistant phone with a good case is more durable than a camera. Bring a battery pack for your phone and 2 or 3 extra batteries for your camera and you should be good to go for a whole day.
> 
> The caveat is that they are JPGs, which is, understandably, a dealbreaker for some people. However, I imagine that once cameras start shipping with AC access points, then transferring RAW files will become trivial.


The Gnarbox 2.0 looks like a nice option...did I say nice? I meant expensive.




But really, I’m probably going to buy one going from 5D IV to R.


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## AlanF (Dec 15, 2019)

sportskjutaren said:


> ......
> Most of the things I told them about, they were already aware of, from other photographers.
> And most of those things were improved on the A9 II.
> 
> ...


Asks us? Ask 2 CR members and you will get 3 opposite views.


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## edoorn (Dec 15, 2019)

It's no secret Canon has always been very 'Japanese' in their market approach. Meaning: they just consider their home market more important, and what the designers will think of, we will have to buy. To put it a bit more harsh: our opinion, of the clients, is simply inferior to their own thinking. In their hierarchy, clients are NOT at the top of the pyramid. 

It's been working for decades, but in recent years this view has been tilted upside down. Partly because Sony's approach; also maybe because internet / social media makes customers better heard.

So they have to swallow their pride, and start listening better to customers.
They could ignore it, but this would mean loss of market share and ultimately, failure, and loss of 'face'. And that scenario is far worse for them.

I do think that this insight has already landed and we're seeing results coming to market now. We've seen the M6 II being very capable, firmware updates to improve the R in a big way, a 70-200 which is truly innovative and will benefits pro with the lighter weight and smaller packing size, etc. Also, I heard someone from my local Canon branch say that they now actually get a response whenever they forward product feedback to HQ in Japan (previously, they just heard crickets).


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## StoicalEtcher (Dec 15, 2019)

sportskjutaren said:


> Thanks!
> *I do really hope that some Canon people are "lurking around" here.
> I would honestly love to see Canon (& Nikon) catch up on Sony in several areas.*
> (As I wrote above, competition is a great thing).
> ...


Sportskjutaren,

I'll start by saying great posts - and love the work examples that you have posted!

It's great that Sony let you have the opportunity to try out their latest gear, and it seems very impressive. I'm not one of the members that will bash Sony just because they aren't Canon - like you, I believe competition is good, and that advances by one will help to boost the others, in a virtuous circle. I also belong to the school of thought that believes all the majors have excellent gear, and what matters most is the ape behind the camera, not the gear itself.

Having said that though, while it is disappointing that Canon have never asked you for your feedback, I'd suggest the reason Sony did is because you were specifically on a trial they are/were running to convert pros across to their platform, and the reps around you will have been primed to be asking trialists what they thought etc? (I'm only speculating, of course, but that is how the corporate world tends to work). 

For what it's worth, I'm not a Canon Ambassador, but I have been invited along to Canon events, given new gear to use, and then been questioned about what I thought, what would make it better, how did it compare, etc. Not suggesting I'm anything special, rather that this is what the manufacturers do : run trials/sessions/whatever, where they are trying to obtain feedback.

If any Canon market researchers ever do lurk here, then hopefully they'll notice your comments and quality work, and invite you along to something soon  

To finish: not trying to knock your well reasoned and provided thoughts - I found them very interesting - but to say that Canon do also specifically ask for feedback at times, and that Sony may well be on a specific project for this at the moment.

Cheers. Stoical.


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## Ph0t0 (Dec 15, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> The problem isn't wanting two card slots. The problem is with people saying two card slots differentiate a dual card camera as "pro" from one with just one slot. They take the shooter completely out of the equation and that smacks of gear snobbery... even though old pro 35mm film shooters only used on film roll. Two card slots do not make one a professional. Some want it. Some couldn't care less. However, saying two cards slots make a camera a professional camera is just plain stupid. There is no such thing as a pro camera, just pro photographers. Problem is, enthusiast outnumber pro shooters by a a long shot. The pros just happen to be more vocal because of ego. Redundancy is nice to have, but it doesn't make the shooter any better at anything. Same bad or good shooter no matter what.



Well we are talking about equipment so it kind of makes sense to take the shooter out of the equation. 
And as with any gear - the more rugged and durable it is, the more options it has, the more likely it is that it will be branded as a "pro" product. 
So I totally understand that a camera that can take more abuse, that has better IQ, offers more backup options and more goodies compared to the rest of the line-up is by most people considered a pro camera. Heck I think even a 5 year old can understand that.
Why some people have the need to shout about that there is no such thing as pro gear... That I don't understand.


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## sportskjutaren (Dec 15, 2019)

StoicalEtcher said:


> ...
> Having said that though, while it is disappointing that Canon have never asked you for your feedback, I'd suggest the reason Sony did is because you were specifically on a trial they are/were running to convert pros across to their platform, and the reps around you will have been primed to be asking trialists what they thought etc? (I'm only speculating, of course, but that is how the corporate world tends to work).
> ...



I´m happy to read that they asked You for things that the can improve.
That said. I´ve talked to several others that tried Sony gear or been to events arranged by Sony.
And they come to the same conclusion as me. 
Sony is much, much better at listening, and are by far much more actively asking questions!
And it´s my honest impression that the reason is that Sony really wants to improve their gear.

I think that this becomes very clear in the changes between the A9 and the A9 II.
To me, it´s really clear that they actually listened to the feedback from many photographers.
And implemented a whole lot from that feedback.
If Canon would have as big "ears" as Sony.
There are some adjustments that are software related that would have been implemented years ago.

One example, that I suggested years ago. Is that when you transmit a file directly from the camera.
The image file should be write protected when the transfer is complete.
This is something that Nikon implemented in the D4 almost 8 years ago.
And actually would make my life a lot easier for me.
(In short, I´ve transmitted images straight from the camera for more than 200 games for "live publishing".
While working for wired agencies at the same time. This requires an extremely fast workflow under great time pressure. 
Therefore my suggestion would actually make a big difference to me.
As things are now, you can't really know what images that are transferred when they are ingested to the computer.
Unless you write-protect the yourself during the game.
And you cant write-protect it while it's in the transfer. Which forces you to take your eyes from the game.
Something that in some cases will cause you to miss an important image...

The response from the CPS rep was not to listen in order to understand why this would make a difference.
Instead the answer was that the software in the camera is really complicated.
I.E. nothing that i should hope for. (And it has still not been implemented by Canon).

I like to compare that to all the software updated that been done on the A9.
All after Sony listening to feedback from photographers on different events.
And the changes from the A9 to the A9 II.

*I do honestly hope that Canon will catch up in this area.*
From my honest experience, they have a lot to improve in this area.
*And Canon is still most welcome to contact me. For my honest opinion.
As long as they will listen carefully & with respect. I´m all open to help them improve.*


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## SereneSpeed (Dec 15, 2019)

I have been following and experimenting with external hardware and internal file transfer options since the release of the EOS R. You can currently backup RAW files to an IOS/Windows device, while shooting, and while also keeping a copy on the SD card. But you need an external network.

That might have just changed: The Case Air Wireless from Tethertools, combined with a newer iPad and Lr mobile, might make RAW backup (while keeping another RAW copy on the SD) possible.

See here - 9:20 - for the referance: 




I don't need an extra card slot. But I do want another backup copy of the RAW file. I would imagine that if Canon released a wireless device that had a card slot so you could run a live backup, they'd make a lot of money. Give it a swappable battery (LP-E6?) and make it work with all the new cameras. I don't think there'd be many complaints about single card slots any more...


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## AlanF (Dec 15, 2019)

Did Sony listen for upgrading the A9 to A9II? There was huge disappointment on the Sony forums when it was announced. It has the same sensor and same processor as the A9 but with the slightly larger grip of the A7RIV, twice the mechanical shutter fps and tweaks to AF etc that could be just firmware update. The nature photographers were hoping for a significant increase in megapixels. The A7RIV has been met by disappointment in some quarters because of the blackout between frames and its AF isn't up to to A9 standards. It's really the same situation as with Canon - a choice between blisteringly fast AF on the top model but low resolution or high resolution but poorer AF.


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## sportskjutaren (Dec 15, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Did Sony listen for upgrading the A9 to A9II?
> ...


Thanks for Your reply!

*Sony truly listened to the very specific group that the camera is designed for.
Agency photographers with a need to transfer images straight from the camera as quickly as possible.*
Those photographers don't really need higher resolution.
*But they need the possibility to "voice tag" images.
And they need the possibility to transfer images via FTP as fast as possible.*
Therefore the upgrades for both wired and wireless internet connection are a big deal to these photographers.
(I write the above out of my own experience).
I´m honestly happy that Sony didn't increase resolution.
It would only slow down my work, pretty much with any upside to it.
(I do appreciate that for a whole lot of photographers the difference between the A9 and the A9 II is not as big as it is for me and others.)

When it comes to sensors.
I generally think that modern sensors overall are amazing.
No matter the brand on the camera.
And in real-world usage, it´s pretty much impossible to see the difference between different sensors.

If anybody here wants to get a deeper understanding of sports photography at the very highest level.
I can truly recommend watching this:


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## AlanF (Dec 15, 2019)

sportskjutaren said:


> Thanks for Your reply!
> 
> *Sony truly listened to the very specific group that the camera is designed for.
> Agency photographers with a need to transfer images straight from the camera as quickly as possible.*
> ...


I have heard that from other sports photographers.


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## StoicalEtcher (Dec 15, 2019)

sportskjutaren said:


> The response from the CPS rep was not to listen in order to understand why this would make a difference.
> Instead the answer was that the software in the camera is really complicated.
> I.E. nothing that i should hope for. (And it has still not been implemented by Canon).
> 
> ...


Fair enough - it seems from your experience that Sony are doing a good job listening at these events then.

(For what it is worth, whilst I obviously can't comment on your specifics, I suspect a CPS rep is not always the right person - needs to be a design /engineering research guy/girl - that said, any CPS rep should also be courteous and be absorbing feedback received to then pass on).

Happy shooting - and hope you're back on the sporting touchlines soon


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## Del Paso (Dec 15, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> The problem isn't wanting two card slots. The problem is with people saying two card slots differentiate a dual card camera as "pro" from one with just one slot. They take the shooter completely out of the equation and that smacks of gear snobbery... even though old pro 35mm film shooters only used on film roll. Two card slots do not make one a professional. Some want it. Some couldn't care less. However, saying two cards slots make a camera a professional camera is just plain stupid. There is no such thing as a pro camera, just pro photographers. Problem is, enthusiast outnumber pro shooters by a a long shot. The pros just happen to be more vocal because of ego. Redundancy is nice to have, but it doesn't make the shooter any better at anything. Same bad or good shooter no matter what.


I do agree!
Leica's digital M cameras have only one card-slot, and yet, are used by many excellent pros (Sebastiao Salgado, for instance).
I also prefer 2 card-slots, but this feature wouldn't make me a better photographer...


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## juststeve (Dec 16, 2019)

Canon sometimes listens to those in the field. Way back when anyway.

In the early years of EOS (film) I was doing an art show in MT when a very senior Canon rep (in charge of pretty much west of the Mississippi) came by my booth with a VERY VIP from Canon mothership. I had just received my 600/4 L and really had not had a chance to use it in the field. The VERY VIP asked me, with the senior rep's help, if I had suggestions for improvements.

I replied I thought there could be control points on a bigger telephotos, pointing out the right hand all these control points but the left hand had nothing to do but hold the lens. I suggested customizable control points on the lens, much like the current great white lens buttons. It took a while, but my 400/2.8 L IS of 1999 had those very lens buttons, as did the other great whites.

If Canon is listening or reading now, one improvement I would like to see is a customizable button, a very, very convenient button, which could kick in or kick out auto bracketing. One push either enables or cuts. A hold down allows a person to change parameters, number of shots and spacing of brackets. With modern sensors, even Canon's, I find I usually need one bracket to ensure a quality print. But when the going gets tough, it would be nice to have the ability to switch to more brackets and be able to very the spacing. Of course, all of this has to be possible to do with eye at the eyepiece and in a couple of seconds.


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## transpo1 (Dec 16, 2019)

bergstrom said:


> Including all the firmware updates in the mark 1 , what can the mark2 give us that was missing in the first one?



A Quick Control Dial with Touch Pad- that's what


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## Michael Clark (Dec 16, 2019)

slclick said:


> Please share the extra $200 promo, I'm not seeing it



The EOS R is currently listed at $1,499 at B&H. The other $200 discount is obtained by entering a 19-digit Promo code at checkout. The promo code was included in a promotional email they sent out on Thursday, December 12. If you weren't signed up to get their promotional e-mails on that date, you're probably out of luck.

Since it is 19 digits long, I can only surmise that each e-mail recipient got a unique code, so I am not going to publish the one they sent me. If several folks try to use it at the same time, I might get banished from B&H...

In my original reply here (which I edited by adding all of the above info), I was looking at the 5D mark IV: It appears one of the Canon $300 discounts has expired. It's showing at $1,999 on B&H and you get an additional $200 discount by entering a unique discount code they sent you in a recent promotional e-mail.


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## Michael Clark (Dec 16, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> The problem isn't wanting two card slots. The problem is with people saying two card slots differentiate a dual card camera as "pro" from one with just one slot. They take the shooter completely out of the equation and that smacks of gear snobbery... even though old pro 35mm film shooters only used on film roll. Two card slots do not make one a professional. Some want it. Some couldn't care less. However, saying two cards slots make a camera a professional camera is just plain stupid. There is no such thing as a pro camera, just pro photographers. Problem is, enthusiast outnumber pro shooters by a a long shot. The pros just happen to be more vocal because of ego. Redundancy is nice to have, but it doesn't make the shooter any better at anything. Same bad or good shooter no matter what.



Back in the days of film, many pros *did* shoot with two different bodies on critical assignments. Part of it was for the ability to quickly go from one lens to another (zooms were not so great back then and most pros shot with primes most of the time), but another part of it was to have different types of film loaded in each body.





__





An EF & RF mount hybrid mirrorless camera in the works [CR2]


We have been told a couple of times now that a "pro" EOS R mirrorless camera that is in the works will have some kind of a hybrid EF/RF lens mount. So this basically means that you'd be able to mount both types of lenses without the use of an adapter. We were also told that this was being...




www.canonrumors.com


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## VICYASA (Dec 16, 2019)

Beginner in photography here... a few questions:
The next potential version of this camera likely to be geared for pros? What's the price point likely to be based on speculation surrounding this next iteration? And when's the potential release of v.2 of this piece? Thanks in advance... help a newbie in the Canon world out.
Thanks


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## Michael Clark (Dec 16, 2019)

sportskjutaren said:


> Thanks for Your reply!
> 
> *Sony truly listened to the very specific group that the camera is designed for.
> Agency photographers with a need to transfer images straight from the camera as quickly as possible.*
> ...



Haven't Canon 1-Series cameras been equipped with voice tagging for well over a decade?
Aren't Canon EOS 1D X and 1D X Mark II bodies equipped with gigabit ethernet connectors to allow for wired FTP?
Haven't they had essentially the same capabilities (albeit at slower speeds constrained by the wireless protocols in use at the time, such as 802.11a/b/g/n) when attached to the optional Wireless File Transmitters?


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## sportskjutaren (Dec 16, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Haven't Canon 1-Series cameras been equipped with voice tagging for well over a decade?
> Aren't Canon EOS 1D X and 1D X Mark II bodies equipped with gigabit ethernet connectors to allow for wired FTP?
> ...


Thanks for Your reply!
It seems like You missed my point.

*My point is that Canon has something to learn from Sony about active & humble listening.
And if the do that.
It will benefit all of us!*

Have a good day


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## scyrene (Dec 16, 2019)

sportskjutaren said:


> Thanks for Your reply!
> It seems like You missed my point.
> 
> *My point is that Canon has something to learn from Sony about active & humble listening.
> ...



Your photos are excellent to my untrained eye, and I can't speak to how Canon or Sony reps respond, as I've never had contact with either. But I would find it surprising if Canon didn't pay close attention to what professional users told them. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but the implication I draw from what you've been saying is, Canon just put stuff out there, whereas Sony listen and learn from feedback. I doubt very much Canon would have been as successful - especially with professionals - as they have been for so long if that were the case.


----------



## sportskjutaren (Dec 16, 2019)

scyrene said:


> Your photos are excellent to my untrained eye, and I can't speak to how Canon or Sony reps respond, as I've never had contact with either. But I would find it surprising if Canon didn't pay close attention to what professional users told them. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but the implication I draw from what you've been saying is, Canon just put stuff out there, whereas Sony listen and learn from feedback. I doubt very much Canon would have been as successful - especially with professionals - as they have been for so long if that were the case.



If you read my other post earlier in this discussion.
I think You will get a better understanding of what I actually want to say.
That is not that Canons doesn't listen at all.
But that can learn a whole lot from how Sony actively ask and listen to photographers.
To a much bigger degree than Canon.
From my very personal experience, there is actually a really big difference here.
And that it would benefit everybody if Canon got better at this.


----------



## Kit. (Dec 16, 2019)

sportskjutaren said:


> Thanks for Your reply!
> It seems like You missed my point.
> 
> *My point is that Canon has something to learn from Sony about active & humble listening.
> ...


Maybe. But how do you know it's actually the case, that Sony listens to you and not just copies what Canon has done?


----------



## Architect1776 (Dec 16, 2019)

sportskjutaren said:


> If you read my other post earlier in this discussion.
> I think You will get a better understanding of what I actually want to say.
> That is not that Canons doesn't listen at all.
> But that can learn a whole lot from how Sony actively ask and listen to photographers.
> ...



How do you know they do not actively talk to and listen to a lot of photographers? Do you have inside information on whom and the numbers?


----------



## sportskjutaren (Dec 16, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> How do you know they do not actively talk to and listen to a lot of photographers? Do you have inside information on whom and the numbers?



I asked a CPS rep about how they work with this years ago.
(Wrote about that earlier in this discussion).



Kit. said:


> Maybe. But how do you know it's actually the case, that Sony listens to you and not just copies what Canon has done?



Because I submitted several suggestions myself.
After they asked me, and many others about what they can improve.
Actually more that one time.

At this point, I really don't think I can submit much more that actually would be constructive to this discussion.
So I wish all of You the very best!


----------



## juststeve (Dec 16, 2019)

To some extent Canon has been trying for more feedback the past couple of years. If memory serves me correctly, at least twice within the past few years Canon has sent out very detailed email surveys to me about what I wanted to see in future cameras and problems I have faced with present ones. The surveys were many pages long. 

Unfortunately, I never completed one as they got more and more intrusive into details I felt were none of Canon's bleeping business and if you did not answer all questions the submission of the survey was denied. 

Up until recently, I had been a CPS member since the early '80s. I still use Canon cameras and lenses, I have had attractions to other systems, primarily the Nikon 850, but have not concluded the benefits of a new system outweigh the costs.


----------



## Kit. (Dec 16, 2019)

sportskjutaren said:


> Because I submitted several suggestions myself.
> After they asked me, and many others about what they can improve.
> Actually more that one time.


Same with me and Canon. If Canon implements my (quite obvious) suggestions in their future cameras, does that mean that they listen to me, or does that mean that my suggestions were quite obvious?


----------



## Photo Hack (Dec 16, 2019)

VICYASA said:


> Beginner in photography here... a few questions:
> The next potential version of this camera likely to be geared for pros? What's the price point likely to be based on speculation surrounding this next iteration? And when's the potential release of v.2 of this piece? Thanks in advance... help a newbie in the Canon world out.
> Thanks


There’s been a lot of posts about this speculation. The R right now is $1499 with adapter and extras from Adorama. It was released at like $2,299 just 18 months ago? 

Best time to buy the R if that’s what your goal is and you’ll get your money back out of it when you decide to upgrade to the next version. 

I would say the Mark II, based on rumors, would be released in the $2700-$3300 range depending on IBIS, new sensor tech, new processor, dual slots, etc. if it’s truly a 5D equivalent of 2020 I don’t see why it wouldn’t be in that range. 

Essentially a lot of people think the R was a stop gap until they could come out with a better camera and the Mark II probably won’t resemble its classic version much.

I don’t think even the Sony boys can say this camera isn’t a great deal at $1499. It’s a very capable camera at that price point and the Mark II probably won’t ship until summer.


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## Architect1776 (Dec 16, 2019)

sportskjutaren said:


> I asked a CPS rep about how they work with this years ago.
> (Wrote about that earlier in this discussion).
> 
> 
> ...



Years ago is NOT today. From my understanding and reading they have changed from years ago.


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## Architect1776 (Dec 16, 2019)

juststeve said:


> To some extent Canon has been trying for more feedback the past couple of years. If memory serves me correctly, at least twice within the past few years Canon has sent out very detailed email surveys to me about what I wanted to see in future cameras and problems I have faced with present ones. The surveys were many pages long.
> 
> Unfortunately, I never completed one as they got more and more intrusive into details I felt were none of Canon's bleeping business and if you did not answer all questions the submission of the survey was denied.
> 
> Up until recently, I had been a CPS member since the early '80s. I still use Canon cameras and lenses, I have had attractions to other systems, primarily the Nikon 850, but have not concluded the benefits of a new system outweigh the costs.



Exactly. They have changed substantially from "Years" ago.


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## juststeve (Dec 16, 2019)

In reply to Architect: 

Actually, it was a personal interaction "years ago" for me which had a direct effect on a Canon product--the meeting of a VERY VIP from Canon mothership along with a very good senior US Canon rep. The. circumstances were an art show where I was selling my photographs and where I might be asked what camera I was using a few hundred times over the course of the show.

The more recent attempts to garner my feedback--the very corporate PR surveys--failed. They even. PO-ed me to some extent. Of course, I am an ornery old wildlife and landscape photographer best left working alone. No desire to be photographing the Olympics or NFL football or World Cup soccer. Sportskjutaren's video reinforced that for me.

Frankly, I am mostly in agreement with Sportskjutaren opinion Canon is not doing enough to get the opinion of serious photographers actually doing the work. The excellent Canon USA rep who brought the VERY VIP by my booth is now gone. The couple of Canon reps I have met since seem to be doofusses. Perhaps that is unfair, they may be very good at selling and explaining cameras to masses, something which I certainly am not, but they were not listeners and problem solvers. Formulaic surveys may the corporate way to seek feedback but they were ineffective for me. A very good rep and a VIP worked better for me.

Actually, I wish to thank Sportskjutaren for bringing the lack of responsiveness to photographers' needs up. I am pretty much in agreement. If you care to read byThom you will probably see Nikon is doing even poorer at listening to the people in the field even if they somehow make some really fine cameras. And so is Canon. But they all could be better.


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## Ph0t0 (Dec 16, 2019)

Del Paso said:


> I do agree!
> Leica's digital M cameras have only one card-slot, and yet, are used by many excellent pros (Sebastiao Salgado, for instance).
> I also prefer 2 card-slots, but this feature wouldn't make me a better photographer...



Well it wouldn't make you a better photographer, but that extra feature would make it a better camera. Which is what we were discussing: Canon camera gear, not your photography skills. 
(I wonder if people on car forums are complaining that inclusion of ABS brakes or airbags won't make them better drivers)

And yeah many pros use all kind of gear from mobile phones to large format cameras and can create beautiful and interesting content with all of them. But that doesn't mean that there aren't certain top tier cameras that are made with professionals in mind and offer lots of features that make them better suited for pros to use on most demanding jobs and thus people and companies brand them as "pro gear". Like I said.. I have no idea why that term bothers some people so much.


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## sportskjutaren (Dec 16, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> Exactly. They have changed substantially from "Years" ago.


True!
When I thought about it.
It was exactly 5 years ago since I talked with the Swedish CPS rep about how they work with this.
And I can actually remember one email with a link to an online form with questions.
That said:
*My main point is that my honest personal opinion is that Sony is much better at this.
I would love to see Canon learn from Sony in this area.*
My honest wish is that Canon would improve their support and products as much as possible.

(Sadly, where I live, in Sweden, which is under "Canon Nordic".
There been several cost-cutting activities in the CPS program.
Decreasing the value of the CPS program).

*Also, I want to repeat what I wrote earlier in this discussion.
Canon is most welcome to contact me. If so I will do my best to help them improve.*


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## sportskjutaren (Dec 16, 2019)

juststeve said:


> In reply to Architect:
> 
> Actually, it was a personal interaction "years ago" for me which had a direct effect on a Canon product--the meeting of a VERY VIP from Canon mothership along with a very good senior US Canon rep. The. circumstances were an art show where I was selling my photographs and where I might be asked what camera I was using a few hundred times over the course of the show.
> 
> ...



Thanks for Your reply.
*I do hope that somebody from Canon reads what You are writing here!
My honest wish is that Canon will become much better at this.
The better the competition is between the different brands.
The better products we as photographers will get.*


----------



## dba101 (Dec 16, 2019)

‘Canon is most welcome to contact me. If so I will do my best to help them improve’

Oh yeah, well I’m sure there’s a clue there somewhere.


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## Photo Hack (Dec 16, 2019)

dba101 said:


> ‘Canon is most welcome to contact me. If so I will do my best to help them improve’
> 
> Oh yeah, well I’m sure there’s a clue there somewhere.


The clue to me seems that within 6 years of Sony stepping into the full frame pro world, they’ve managed to surpass Nikon and Canon in marketshare. Among many reasons for this, one seems to be their aggressive approach to wooing away Canon and Nikons field of pro photographers. 

This has been demonstrated by many photographers for anyone who’s been paying attention. We can hate on influencers all we want, but they’re an important part in business and it seems Sony has cozied up to many of them as well in genuinely trying to produce a product that fits their needs. Many have been open about their experience with this and I believe it’s smart business and a good thing. 

Capitalism and competition chugging along to produce better gear tailored to the needs of its users.


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## Aussie shooter (Dec 16, 2019)

sportskjutaren said:


> If you read my other post earlier in this discussion.
> I think You will get a better understanding of what I actually want to say.
> That is not that Canons doesn't listen at all.
> But that can learn a whole lot from how Sony actively ask and listen to photographers.
> ...



I think there is something else being forgotten/ignored here. And that is that canon has had 'professional' equipment for a very long time now and any real improvements can therefore only be incremental and minimal(and judging by the rumored specs of the 1dx3 are definitely on the way). Sony on the other hand has only just managed to produce a piece of gear that comes anywhere close to the 'professional' level of the 1d series(and still lags in many areas) which means that they have a lot of latitude to make big changes that appear to be customer driven.


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## Architect1776 (Dec 16, 2019)

sportskjutaren said:


> True!
> When I thought about it.
> It was exactly 5 years ago since I talked with the Swedish CPS rep about how they work with this.
> And I can actually remember one email with a link to an online form with questions.
> ...



So you are looking at this matter from a Swedish point of view.
Is this indicative from a global point of view?


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## Photo Hack (Dec 16, 2019)

Circle the fanboy wagons! 

One persons experience in one part of the world can’t possibly reflect the experience of others, nor be an indicator of broader trends.

I’m curious what your explanations are for Sony to surpass marketshare of Canon and Nikon in the full frame market in less than 6 years. 

Sure Canon will probably take it back in 2020, but come on....for “inferior cameras” that’s a remarkable accomplishment.


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## Photo Hack (Dec 16, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> I think there is something else being forgotten/ignored here. And that is that canon has had 'professional' equipment for a very long time now and any real improvements can therefore only be incremental and minimal(and judging by the rumored specs of the 1dx3 are definitely on the way). Sony on the other hand has only just managed to produce a piece of gear that comes anywhere close to the 'professional' level of the 1d series(and still lags in many areas) which means that they have a lot of latitude to make big changes that appear to be customer driven.


Is this not true for Canon and Nikon in regards to the same exact Mirrorless full frame market? Do they not have the same path to travel that Sony has been on?


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## Photo Hack (Dec 16, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> So you are looking at this matter from a Swedish point of view.
> Is this indicative from a global point of view?


Is justSteve Swedish too? Haha


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## sportskjutaren (Dec 16, 2019)

dba101 said:


> ‘Canon is most welcome to contact me. If so I will do my best to help them improve’
> 
> Oh yeah, well I’m sure there’s a clue there somewhere.


Yes, it is!
I definitely prefer to talk with somebody that has the actual power to improve things.
Over discussions with anonymous people over the internet.
The only reason that I write here.
Is that so far my attempts have failed.


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## dba101 (Dec 16, 2019)

Canon as we all now know are *******.. End of. 
Maybe some guy from Sweden who doesnt even shoot anymore can save their sorry asses.


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## Aussie shooter (Dec 16, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Is this not true for Canon and Nikon in regards to the same exact Mirrorless full frame market? Do they not have the same path to travel that Sony has been on?


to a point yes. But Canon has had professional gear for a lot longer than sony has had a professional mirrorless. In reality up until the a7r4 and a92 sony themselves had produced nothing but doorstops with buttons. canon and Nikon have far less catching up to do than Sony did. And Sony are still lagging in many aspects but at least they seem to a finally learnt that it takes more than a meaningless spec sheet to make a camera. At the rate Canon seem to be going they will have caught up to Sony within 2 generations of bodies in the less important aspects and will likely still lead in the areas that matter


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## Aussie shooter (Dec 16, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Circle the fanboy wagons!
> 
> One persons experience in one part of the world can’t possibly reflect the experience of others, nor be an indicator of broader trends.
> 
> ...



Brilliant advertising. Simple as that. Sony have proven to be absolute genuises when it comes to marketing. Getting customers to ignore obvious and serious deficincies and making them think that minor differences are the make and break of a photographer has been pure marketing genuis. Hats off to them for that.


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## Otara (Dec 16, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Circle the fanboy wagons!
> 
> One persons experience in one part of the world can’t possibly reflect the experience of others, nor be an indicator of broader trends.
> 
> ...



In Japan.

The sensors mostly. They have a highly dominant position there that they've leveraged into cameras.


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## Michael Clark (Dec 17, 2019)

sportskjutaren said:


> Thanks for Your reply!
> It seems like You missed my point.
> 
> *My point is that Canon has something to learn from Sony about active & humble listening.
> ...



My point is that everything you said Sony listened to you about and included in the α9 II were things that Canon has heard their users request and had already given them a decade ago.

All Sony had to do was pick the low hanging fruit that everyone was requesting _ because Canon had been offering them for several generations of pro level bodies. _


----------



## Michael Clark (Dec 17, 2019)

juststeve said:


> In reply to Architect:
> 
> Actually, it was a personal interaction "years ago" for me which had a direct effect on a Canon product--the meeting of a VERY VIP from Canon mothership along with a very good senior US Canon rep. The. circumstances were an art show where I was selling my photographs and where I might be asked what camera I was using a few hundred times over the course of the show.
> 
> ...



Chuck was a once in a thousand years type of technical rep. There will never be another like him at Canon or any of the other camera companies. RIP.


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## geffy (Dec 17, 2019)

Canon need a professional mirrorless, the problem is that there is a divide in this market caused by video, many stills photographers only need a basic recording capability at most, influencers and youtubers lust after Hollywood quality from a consumer video product that has potential to become a high end stills camera in a future incarnation


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## wockawocka (Dec 17, 2019)

'Canon EOS R is now in testing by a *small group* of Canon professionals '

Always instils confidence.


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## scyrene (Dec 17, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Circle the *fanboy* wagons!
> 
> One persons experience in one part of the world can’t possibly reflect the experience of others, nor be an indicator of broader trends.
> 
> ...



Okay, no need for the f-word, it's really unhelpful and needlessly antagonistic. I don't think anyone here would disagree that Sony have made great strides. But the discussion seems to be coloured by an old narrative - than Canon (and maybe Nikon) are dinosaurs who don't listen and don't innovate, whilst Sony are nimble and responsive, which is partial to say the least.

On a broader note, I question the implication of some people's comments here that Canon's historic success is somehow accidental - that they didn't listen to customer feedback. I don't see how that can possibly be the case given their market dominance, even if you're just looking at the professional segment. The 1-series bodies weren't just conjured up out of nowhere, they were surely developed through close communication with users.

One last point, for all the talk of 'competition is good', a lot of people seem to think what Canon should do is simply copy Sony (whether in approach or specs). Multiple brands offering the same thing is a funny kind of competition, and I don't see how it benefits consumers, all of whom have different priorities.


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## VICYASA (Dec 17, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> There’s been a lot of posts about this speculation. The R right now is $1499 with adapter and extras from Adorama. It was released at like $2,299 just 18 months ago?
> 
> Best time to buy the R if that’s what your goal is and you’ll get your money back out of it when you decide to upgrade to the next version.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply.


----------



## Foxeslink (Dec 17, 2019)

I would be dreaming or I can expect 120FPS FullHD and 4k60p no crop ?

I really need a still/video camera. If canon cannot come up with this in the new camera, I woud have to buy a sony just for video.


----------



## dwarven (Dec 17, 2019)

In my short time with the R, I've found it's phenomenal. Build quality is excellent, viewfinder is sharp and clear, menu system is great, eye AF is nearly as accurate as the a7iii, and most importantly the image quality far exceeds the camera I was upgrading from (D7500). At $1500 I think it would be silly not to get it, especially if you have adaptable EF glass.


----------



## geffy (Dec 17, 2019)

scyrene said:


> Okay, no need for the f-word, it's really unhelpful and needlessly antagonistic. I don't think anyone here would disagree that Sony have made great strides. But the discussion seems to be coloured by an old narrative - than Canon (and maybe Nikon) are dinosaurs who don't listen and don't innovate, whilst Sony are nimble and responsive, which is partial to say the least.
> 
> On a broader note, I question the implication of some people's comments here that Canon's historic success is somehow accidental - that they didn't listen to customer feedback. I don't see how that can possibly be the case given their market dominance, even if you're just looking at the professional segment. The 1-series bodies weren't just conjured up out of nowhere, they were surely developed through close communication with users.
> 
> One last point, for all the talk of 'competition is good', a lot of people seem to think what Canon should do is simply copy Sony (whether in approach or specs). Multiple brands offering the same thing is a funny kind of competition, and I don't see how it benefits consumers, all of whom have different priorities.


Always amazes me that sony is so lauded, yes it has really good specs and image quality but actually getting that image is a pain, the canons have their limitations but it is a better experience and what it lacks in pixels or dynamic range is compensated by handling and colour quality and where did all that dust come from, influencers and reviewers love sony but nikon and canon get used for a reason.


----------



## Cryhavoc (Dec 17, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Wireless transfer is slow and kills your battery fast. How long does it take to transfer 2000 RAW shots for you? 2000 shots could be taken over 2-3 hours time period is an unfortunate reality for event shooters. With Average file size 35Mb each that’s 70Gb + to transfer over wifi... good luck doing that in 2-3 hours period while you keep taking shots and your Camera battery would have to support all that.



I actually tether when shooting. I bought a long usb to usb-c cable, one end plugs into the camera, the other into the surface pro tablet which is carried in a backpack. Immediate backups of all the shots I take when I use the tethered method. If I am casually shooting, I have the shots go to my phone or tablet wirelessly.

The tethering while on the go works quite well.


----------



## SecureGSM (Dec 18, 2019)

Cryhavoc said:


> I actually tether when shooting. I bought a long usb to usb-c cable, one end plugs into the camera, the other into the surface pro tablet which is carried in a backpack. Immediate backups of all the shots I take when I use the tethered method. If I am casually shooting, I have the shots go to my phone or tablet wirelessly.
> 
> The tethering while on the go works quite well.


Ok. Gotcha. This Solution may not work for events though.


----------



## ritholtz (Dec 18, 2019)

Cryhavoc said:


> I actually tether when shooting. I bought a long usb to usb-c cable, one end plugs into the camera, the other into the surface pro tablet which is carried in a backpack. Immediate backups of all the shots I take when I use the tethered method. If I am casually shooting, I have the shots go to my phone or tablet wirelessly.
> 
> The tethering while on the go works quite well.


While connected to laptop, does it charge Camera? Or do we need some special cables or ports to charge the battery with camera.


----------



## Don Haines (Dec 18, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Ok. Gotcha. This Solution may not work for events though.


I look on it as an additional tool in the box. For a lot of the time i am shooting, it is usually a short burst of shots, and lots of time in between. This would work quite well for that. If I were shooting action at “the big game”, it would have a hard time keeping up...... but then again, this is not the camera I would have brought to cover action.


----------



## telemaque (Dec 19, 2019)

sportskjutaren said:


> At this point, I really don't think I can submit much more that actually would be constructive to this discussion.
> So I wish all of You the very best!



I am a commercial director in green chemistry in real life, when not travelling for my pleasure with cameras in order to take pictures and videos.
I have found the comments from Sportskutaren quite interesting and furthermore illustrated by beautiful pictures, showing his real capacity in using a camera.

Since these comments, I have read many answers that I find are showing a certain level of bad faith. I did not expect this here on this forum.
Obviously, the comments from Sportskutaren were constructive and written for the good of Canon reputation and business.

In my business world, dispute on words are not key, what are important are the sales figures.
If you think you are right but your sales are falling apart, the reality of business imposes to you the fact that you are wrong.

I love Canon, but Canon needs to change if they want to improve or keep their sales.
From my little perspective in video, Canon's strategy on DSLR for video has not worked and Lumix took their marketshare.

The same is happening with Sony in Japan in 2019 with Full Frame cameras.








Sony wins mirrorless race, beating Canon and Nikon for 2019 full-frame sales


Sony sold the most full-frame cameras in Japan this year, as the Canon EOS R and Nikon Z7 can't keep pace with Alpha




www.digitalcameraworld.com





*It is time to open your eyes and stop to deny the reality of Canon loosing marketshare and its leadership position in Japan (in FF).*

I would be shocked to learn that Canon is loosing their leadership position because they are a perfect company, producing perfect products and those products are perfectly answering the needs of their customers. I would rather think they have missed or ignored some customer needs and those needs were better managed by other brands.

A consequence of this mismanagement from Canon is their marketshare going down and their loss of their leadership position.

If I remember well my Geography, Sweden is quite far from Japan, so clearly the loss of marketshare in Japan is not due to the local situation of some Swedish bad new sales persons not properly listening to an experienced bird photographer or a professional sport photographer.

So maybe this problem of Canon is global?!
And if you visit internet you'll find many comments going in that direction.

In Japan, in Full Frame, Sony won 6.4% marketshare and is now the leader with 38% marketshare.
When Canon lost 1.8% marketshare and now second with 36% marketshare.

What is interesting is not the small loss of Canon but the very serious increase of Sony.


DETAILS OF THE SALES ARTICLE:

While the western world was tying itself in knots buying all the Black Friday bargains, something very important happened in Japan: it was revealed that Sony sold more full-frame cameras than anyone else in 2019, overtaking Canon for market share. 

In short, this means that Sony has won the full-frame mirrorless race in 2019; despite their best efforts, the Canon EOS R and Nikon Z7 simply couldn't keep paces with the awesome sales of Sony's Alpha cameras. 

The news comes courtesy of BCN+R, the Japanese retail analysis service that monitors point of sale data in the nation. In its report, BCN+R announced that Sony now holds dominant market share of 38% in the full-frame arena, followed by Canon at 36% and Nikon at 24%. 

This is in stark contrast to 2018, which saw Canon hold a 37.8% share, Sony 31.6% and Nikon 29.1%.


----------



## telemaque (Dec 19, 2019)

From the same reports, further information on TOTAL, APS and FF sales changes year over year :

*Overall Sales*

Sony 19.4% increase in sales units 2019 vs 2018
Sony 31.2% increase in sales revenues 2019 vs 2018

Canon *12.8% DECREASE* in sales units 2019 vs 2018
Canon *15.8% DECREASE* in sales revenues 2019 vs 2018

If you are an investor and you get such figures, what would you think of Canon's performance?
What would you think of Sony's future in this business?


----------



## unfocused (Dec 19, 2019)

telemaque said:


> From the same reports, further information on TOTAL, APS and FF sales changes year over year :
> 
> *Overall Sales*
> 
> ...



Interesting numbers. But, things get more complicated as you dig in. I found this in the article you referenced: _"What is interesting, however, is that between the 'big three', full-frame cameras are an incredibly small part of the puzzle (albeit the most profitable). According to BCN+R, full-frame only accounts for 10.4% of sales (6.4% of that being mirrorless, 4% DSLR); APS-C cameras account for 89.6% (55.7% mirrorless, 33.9% DSLR)." _

Also, it's very hard to draw conclusions from a single year, as camera manufacturers follow different release schedules. Depending on what a company has or has not released in any given year can greatly impact sales for that year -- Probably more so with DSLRs than mirrorless, but I expect that since Canon did not have any major full frame DSLR releases in the past year, that could skew the sales figures. 

This all causes me to default to a position I've long held -- I'm glad to see Canon's competitors doing well as that certainly puts pressure on Canon to do better. With Nikon and Canon both having about a century's worth of experience, I don't really worry about either one abandoning the market or going out of business. They have weathered changes before and I expect their management is far ahead of us in anticipating and adapting to changing conditions.


----------



## Michael Clark (Dec 19, 2019)

telemaque said:


> I am a commercial director in green chemistry in real life, when not travelling for my pleasure with cameras in order to take pictures and videos.
> I have found the comments from Sportskutaren quite interesting and furthermore illustrated by beautiful pictures, showing his real capacity in using a camera.
> 
> Since these comments, I have read many answers that I find are showing a certain level of bad faith. I did not expect this here on this forum.
> ...




Serious question. When did fiscal 2019 end and fiscal 2020 begin in Japan?


----------



## Joules (Dec 19, 2019)

telemaque said:


> If you are an investor and you get such figures, what would you think of Canon's performance?
> What would you think of Sony's future in this business?


Canon only released one FF body in the year, and that was the RP. If you look at the graphics, you'll see Canon's FF unit sales are actually up, and value is down, indicating they sold a ton of RPs, even though the more expensive DSLR bodies probably weren't in high demand. Which is to be expected, as they are near their end of life, with the 1DX III and likely even the 5D V coming next year.

If I were an investor, I'd look at these figures a lot more, before concluding much. In any case, I find it misleading to say that Canon is suffering so much here, as clearly Nikon is in a lot more trouble. 

Here's a better coverage of the report and the original btw:





__





Redirect Notice






www.google.com













キヤノン、ニコンともに惨敗のフルサイズ戦争この1年 - BCN＋R


昨年秋に始まったフルサイズミラーレス一眼の戦い。1年あまりが経過した現段階では、ソニーが圧勝している。




www.bcnretail.com







Michael Clark said:


> Serious question. When did fiscal 2019 end and fiscal 2020 begin in Japan?


As indicated by the graphics, the numbers from the report cover the year from November 2018 to October 2019.


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## Travel_Photographer (Dec 19, 2019)

telemaque said:


> Since these comments, I have read many answers that I find are showing a certain level of bad faith. I did not expect this here on this forum.
> 
> In my business world, dispute on words are not key, what are important are the sales figures.
> 
> *It is time to open your eyes and stop to deny the reality of Canon loosing marketshare and its leadership position in Japan (in FF).*



The title of the article is "Canon EOS R Mark II in Testing"

If you're at a holiday party this season and people are discussing the upcoming Ford F-150 pickup truck and whether you feel 450 lb/ft torque is enough to tow your camper, or wondering if they're going to keep the V8 in the lineup, or add a diesel engine, and someone comes up to your group and starts talking about some random marketing company who says Chevrolet just passed Ford in sales in Germany, then (1) How relevant would you find that to the conversation and (2) How long do you think it would take people to walk away from that guy? 

The responses you see here should come as no surprise.


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## Mikehit (Dec 19, 2019)

telemaque said:


> I am a commercial director in green chemistry in real life, when not travelling for my pleasure with cameras in order to take pictures and videos.
> I have found the comments from Sportskutaren quite interesting and furthermore illustrated by beautiful pictures, showing his real capacity in using a camera.
> 
> Since these comments, I have read many answers that I find are showing a certain level of bad faith. I did not expect this here on this forum.
> ...



I accept everything you say. However, there are two reasons a company falls behind like Canon have done:
(a) They have the technology and do not listen to what customers want, only releasing what they think they should release
(b) they do not have the technology and do as well as they can.

They key to mirrorless is the sensor because it is the speed at which the sensor can process and pass data to other components. And Canon have admitted they have have fallen behind on sensor technology. So as I see it, they want to match Sony but can't, despite what people want them to do.
As for listening, as has been said above, a lot depends on exactly who you talk to. If you happen to talk to someone with influence on the design team you will get positive feedback from your comments. If you are talking to a run-of-the-mill CPS person or sales person then you will likely get a defence of the products on sale. Or a defensive position where they don't want to publicly admit they do not have the technology.

So yes, Canon has lost market share but there are myriad reasons and given their past performance, I see 'Canon not listening' as the least likely. And the 'Sony responded my suggestions ' often (as has been said above) Canon has been doing it for years and if Sony did not already have them on the drawing board they would deserve to be harangued as incompetent. 
Two recent examples; when people criticised Sony's continued production of small bodies, they responded saying that 'that is not what our customers want'(denial), then lo and behold the A7R4 and A9II have got bigger bodies. And a current one is Sony's inability (refusal?) to put in a half-decent touch screen, especially given their history with mobile phones.
and I have lost count of the number of Sony users (including their sponsored photographers) who complained that Sony did not seem to be interested in their comments. That seems to be changing, thankfully.

I don't think people are being uncharitable to Sportskutaren, but pointing out that the 'Canon don't listen but Sony do' is rather too simplistic.


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## Joules (Dec 20, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> Canon have admitted they have have fallen behind on sensor technology. So as I see it, they want to match Sony but can't, despite what people want them to do.


I think those times are over. The sensor in the M6 II and 90D shows that Canon has diminished noise issues boosting shadows further and in the case of the M6 II we see that throughput is much less of an issue, as it has basically the same amount of throughput as the Sony a9 for example.

And assuming Canon didn't go all out with their new technology on the first mid tear mirrorless they released with it, we could expect to see some great specs on the upcoming high res R and R II cameras.


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## BrandAgnostic (Dec 20, 2019)

I have a 5D4 and an A7III but as a portraitist find myself reaching for the Sony for its Eye AF and smaller, lighter feel most of the time. I don't let the 5D4 go because it's still a superb camera and performs well with the many L primes and zooms I have while they don't work as snappily as native glass on the Sony using the Sigma MC-11 adapter. The decent performance of the R as it is with the new firmware and the terrific Christmas/New-Version-Coming-Fairly-Soon prices for body and adapter mean I will probably get the R now for its mirrorless advantages and then take a good look at the R2 when it comes out to see if the new version is worth it by summer 2020 as seems likely for its availability.

I thought I'd hate the OVF but I don't mind it a bit in the Sony. Matter of taste, I guess. The A7R4 is a nice tool but I don't need the extra file size and would rather be able to get good service out of my superb Canon lenses for some years with the R and adapter for classic Canon glass, which I hear works well. The Sony lenses are also good but I could spend $10,000 in a hurry getting everything I'd like replacing my Canon lenses with Sony, Zeiss, etc., E-mount.


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## telemaque (Dec 21, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Interesting numbers. But, things get more complicated as you dig in. I found this in the article you referenced: _"What is interesting, however, is that between the 'big three', full-frame cameras are an incredibly small part of the puzzle (albeit the most profitable). According to BCN+R, full-frame only accounts for 10.4% of sales (6.4% of that being mirrorless, 4% DSLR); APS-C cameras account for 89.6% (55.7% mirrorless, 33.9% DSLR)." _
> 
> Also, it's very hard to draw conclusions from a single year, as camera manufacturers follow different release schedules. Depending on what a company has or has not released in any given year can greatly impact sales for that year -- Probably more so with DSLRs than mirrorless, but I expect that since Canon did not have any major full frame DSLR releases in the past year, that could skew the sales figures.
> 
> This all causes me to default to a position I've long held -- I'm glad to see Canon's competitors doing well as that certainly puts pressure on Canon to do better. With Nikon and Canon both having about a century's worth of experience, I don't really worry about either one abandoning the market or going out of business. They have weathered changes before and I expect their management is far ahead of us in anticipating and adapting to changing conditions.



I agree on your comments on the FF business.
As you have seen, I have posted another set of figures showing the whole business sales in Japan. 
Figures are even worth for Canon (percentage of change).

Again, I want Canon to remain a great company. I am not happy to see these figures.
But, I don't want Canon to become arrogant and ignore key demands from customers.
My comments are just written with this in mind. 

As you see in my signature I have roughly spent 10,000 Euros in Canon products, so there is a good reason why I did so


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## telemaque (Dec 21, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Serious question. When did fiscal 2019 end and fiscal 2020 begin in Japan?


Like you I was surprised how they measure figures, not using the full christian year.
Not sure when is the "Japanese New Year"? Like the Chinese in February?


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## telemaque (Dec 21, 2019)

Joules said:


> Canon only released one FF body in the year, and that was the RP. If you look at the graphics, you'll see Canon's FF unit sales are actually up, and value is down, indicating they sold a ton of RPs, even though the more expensive DSLR bodies probably weren't in high demand. Which is to be expected, as they are near their end of life, with the 1DX III and likely even the 5D V coming next year.
> 
> If I were an investor, I'd look at these figures a lot more, before concluding much. In any case, I find it misleading to say that Canon is suffering so much here, as clearly Nikon is in a lot more trouble.
> 
> ...



I take your point. However, if you look at the other post I put with the whole business figures, the picture remains not that great for Canon.

My only point is the following: I really hope Canon is going to act on it and as a consequence of this, answer a bit more properly some of the customers demand.


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## Cryhavoc (Dec 21, 2019)

ritholtz said:


> While connected to laptop, does it charge Camera? Or do we need some special cables or ports to charge the battery with camera.



No it does not charge. My surface laptop has a standard USB port. You would need a usb-c port. My desktop has a usb-c and it charges the camera when the camera is off.


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## telemaque (Dec 21, 2019)

Travel_Photographer said:


> The title of the article is "Canon EOS R Mark II in Testing"
> 
> If you're at a holiday party this season and people are discussing the upcoming Ford F-150 pickup truck and whether you feel 450 lb/ft torque is enough to tow your camper, or wondering if they're going to keep the V8 in the lineup, or add a diesel engine, and someone comes up to your group and starts talking about some random marketing company who says Chevrolet just passed Ford in sales in Germany, then (1) How relevant would you find that to the conversation and (2) How long do you think it would take people to walk away from that guy?
> 
> The responses you see here should come as no surprise.



I understand you might have not liked my comments. 
Fair enough. I accept your feedback. Indeed, I took a risk in such an answer.

I personally did not think the answers given to a professional photographer from Sweden making constructive critics on Canon were very nice.

I felt some sales figures would highlight some of these critics were maybe more justified than people thought.
That was it.


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## MadScotsman (Dec 21, 2019)

Travel_Photographer said:


> The title of the article is "Canon EOS R Mark II in Testing"
> 
> If you're at a holiday party this season and people are discussing the upcoming Ford F-150 pickup truck and whether you feel 450 lb/ft torque is enough to tow your camper, or wondering if they're going to keep the V8 in the lineup, or add a diesel engine, and someone comes up to your group and starts talking about some random marketing company who says Chevrolet just passed Ford in sales in Germany, then (1) How relevant would you find that to the conversation and (2) How long do you think it would take people to walk away from that guy?
> 
> The responses you see here should come as no surprise.



I’m sorry .

I find it completely intellectually dishonest. 

And more than a little obnoxious.

This is a Canon specific forum. I come here to read about Canon products and rumors. It’s not a general purpose forum. It’s not an open discussion forum. It’s a targeted forum and it’s target is rumors and information about Canon products.

There is no daylight between coming here and posting what essentially boils down to “Sony is winning!” and the tiresome and unproductive brand trolling on on the Chevy vs Ford, Harley vs Indian, Bud vs. Miller, etc. etc., ad nauseum, ad infinitum, forums.

Saying “I love Canon... BUT...” is thin and well... as I said, intellectually dishonest.

The UGLY truth is that Sony may make an okay product, but I will never own one because I will never allow myself to be associated with their customer culture. Which seems heavily populated with these tiresome trolls.


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## Travel_Photographer (Dec 21, 2019)

telemaque said:


> *a professional photographer from Sweden making constructive critics on Canon were very nice.*
> 
> I felt some sales figures would highlight some of these critics were maybe more justified than people thought.
> That was it.



In an article about the status of an upcoming Canon R camera body, nobody else is discussing the "general way that Sony receives feedback from their customers better in comparison to Canon". That's my point. It's completely irrelevant to *this particular discussion* about a specific Canon camera that is currently in testing. Posting sales figures about Sony only adds to the irrelevance. THIS. IS. AN. ARTICLE. ABOUT. THE. CANON. R. The points being raised about Sony vs Canon feedback may have some appeal to some people somewhere else, but we're not talking about Sony right now. We're talking about the Canon R.

For the record, I read the irrelevant comments and just moved along without a word about it. People go off on unrelated tangents all the time, I just skip over them and keep reading. I'm only replying because you'd seemed "surprised" and unhappy with the general response and I'm offering some insight.


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## Michael Clark (Dec 21, 2019)

telemaque said:


> Like you I was surprised how they measure figures, not using the full christian year.
> Not sure when is the "Japanese New Year"? Like the Chinese in February?



Many U.S. corps run an October 1 - September 30 fiscal year, which would have placed the beginning of fy2019 only a few short weeks after the release of the R. But by 11/1, all of the preorders had likely been filled and most other early adopters had already bought theirs.


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## Aussie shooter (Dec 21, 2019)

telemaque said:


> I take your point. However, if you look at the other post I put with the whole business figures, the picture remains not that great for Canon.
> 
> My only point is the following: I really hope Canon is going to act on it and as a consequence of this, answer a bit more properly some of the customers demand.


There is precisely ZERO Canon can do about the decline in the sale of smaller cameras(which is where most of Canons declines are being seen). Sony does not have anywhere near the market share of canon in that area and therefore cannot lose as much in the way of sales. Once it all settles down(if and when) then we will get a good idea of where the various companies stand


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## Joules (Dec 21, 2019)

telemaque said:


> I take your point. However, if you look at the other post I put with the whole business figures, the picture remains not that great for Canon.


Like I said, I don't think the picture is that grim for Canon. To put some perspective of what the relative growth numbers mean, one must consider the absolute values as well. Unfortunately I've only seen those mentioned in the original article, the Sony biased reporters seem to ignore them. So here's the Google translated quote about total market share, which is what the bar chart with the relative changes references:

"In terms of maker share of all interchangeable lens cameras, Canon maintains the leading position at 41.7%, but the shrinking trend has not stopped and it is hard to say that it is safe. Second-place Nikon is far behind Canon with 16.9%, and third-place Sony is just behind with 15.8%."

Good for Sony that they managed to overtake Canon in terms of sales in the FF market, in a year where Canon only released low cost mirrorless bodies for their not fully established RF ecosystem. Sure, they have to step up their game. But they showed that's just what they are doing with the recent APS-C releases. So some patience seems more in place than spreading panic.


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## unfocused (Dec 21, 2019)

MadScotsman said:


> ...This is a Canon specific forum. I come here to read about Canon products and rumors. It’s not a general purpose forum. It’s not an open discussion forum. It’s a targeted forum and it’s target is rumors and information about Canon products...



We are on page 23 of a thread. There has never been a single thread on this forum (aside from image galleries) that has not gone seriously off the rails after about five pages. Telemaque respectfully posted a link and some information regarding camera sales. He did so in response to other posts. That has been a legitimate topic for discussion on this forum and on numerous threads for at least a decade. Since you've only been a forum member for a few months you may not realize that. There was nothing about his post that could even remotely be considered trolling.

You may not be interested in the business side of Canon, but many people find it an interesting and legitimate topic for discussion. Having endured countless posts about Mac computers, battery life, computer programming, and many other less relevant topics, I don't see any reason to complain about two posts that contained factual information about the state of the industry.

If someone makes a post that is uninteresting to you, you can always just skip over it.


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## YuengLinger (Dec 21, 2019)

unfocused said:


> We are on page 23 of a thread. There has never been a single thread on this forum (aside from image galleries) that has not gone seriously off the rails after about five pages. Telemaque respectfully posted a link and some information regarding camera sales. He did so in response to other posts. That has been a legitimate topic for discussion on this forum and on numerous threads for at least a decade. Since you've only been a forum member for a few months you may not realize that. There was nothing about his post that could even remotely be considered trolling.
> 
> You may not be interested in the business side of Canon, but many people find it an interesting and legitimate topic for discussion. Having endured countless posts about Mac computers, battery life, computer programming, and many other less relevant topics, I don't see any reason to complain about two posts that contained factual information about the state of the industry.
> 
> If someone makes a post that is uninteresting to you, you can always just skip over it.


Hallelujah!


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## Viggo (Dec 22, 2019)

Why have they omitted spot AF for the R when it is in the RP? Didn’t know this or remember knowing it...


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## Joules (Dec 22, 2019)

Viggo said:


> Why have they omitted spot AF for the R when it is in the RP? Didn’t know this or remember knowing it...


Why does the R not have Focus Bracketing? Why does no DSLR have Focus peaking in LiveView? Why does Auto ISO become fixed at 400 if a flash is used (on cameras that I know about)? Why did some models release without 24p? And so on... 

Isn't Canon just weird like that? When it comes to simple software things, it seems to me like Canon often doesn't round them out as much as they could. On one hand, it probably allows them to focus more on the core experience and they seem to have a motto like 'less is better', but on the other hand, it is frustrating to me. I like to get more for paying more, when climbing up a product segment. Not, get more in some, and less in other areas, unless that is a limitation imposed by the hardware (like switching between OVF and EVF).


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## Viggo (Dec 22, 2019)

Joules said:


> Why does the R not have Focus Bracketing? Why does no DSLR have Focus peaking in LiveView? Why does Auto ISO become fixed at 400 if a flash is used (on cameras that I know about)? Why did some models release without 24p? And so on...
> 
> Isn't Canon just weird like that? When it comes to simple software things, it seems to me like Canon often doesn't round them out as much as they could. On one hand, it probably allows them to focus more on the core experience and they seem to have a motto like 'less is better', but on the other hand, it is frustrating to me. I like to get more for paying more, when climbing up a product segment. Not, get more in some, and less in other areas, unless that is a limitation imposed by the hardware (like switching between OVF and EVF).


Yeah, some of those are not comparable. But I get it, I think it was the 1d3 who didn’t have spot AF and then the 7d got. Focus bracketing is a limited feature in the RP anyway, my R does not lock iso 400 when using flash etc.


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## Ozarker (Dec 22, 2019)

Viggo said:


> Why have they omitted spot AF for the R when it is in the RP? Didn’t know this or remember knowing it...


As I understand spot AF, the R has it. But please tell me if I am wrong. I could very well be wrong. If I hold down the AF point/index/magnify/reduce button (#10 on page 29 in the manual), I can use the Quick Control Dial and Main Dials to put the AF point wherever I want it and it will lock the AF point in place. It won't track around. To get out of that mode, just hit the AF Point/Index/Magnify/Reduce button again. Kind of awkward to do at first, but it works. Are we talking about the same thing? It works kind of the same way moving the AF point around with the joystick on my old 5D Mark III.

It does not, of course, work in eye AF mode... but works in every other mode.


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## unfocused (Dec 22, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> As I understand spot AF, the R has it...


No. Spot Autofocus (as Canon uses it) is very small point selection. It shows up on the XD cameras as a single box with a smaller point inside. It allows for more precise focusing on subjects when the single point selection box is too large to get a precise focus. Unfortunately, it is not on the R.


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## Viggo (Dec 22, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> As I understand spot AF, the R has it. But please tell me if I am wrong. I could very well be wrong. If I hold down the AF point/index/magnify/reduce button (#10 on page 29 in the manual), I can use the Quick Control Dial and Main Dials to put the AF point wherever I want it and it will lock the AF point in place. It won't track around. To get out of that mode, just hit the AF Point/Index/Magnify/Reduce button again. Kind of awkward to do at first, but it works. Are we talking about the same thing? It works kind of the same way moving the AF point around with the joystick on my old 5D Mark III.
> 
> It does not, of course, work in eye AF mode... but works in every other mode.


No, we’re not talking about the same thing

I’m talking about the actual size of the single point AF point. The RP has an even smaller one for pinpoint focus, much like the current DSLR’s. But in the R, small is the smallest.


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## Ozarker (Dec 22, 2019)

Viggo said:


> No, we’re not talking about the same thing
> 
> I’m talking about the actual size of the single point AF point. The RP has an even smaller one for pinpoint focus, much like the current DSLR’s. But in the R, small is the smallest.


Ok. I understand now. Thanks!


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## Ozarker (Dec 22, 2019)

unfocused said:


> No. Spot Autofocus (as Canon uses it) is very small point selection. It shows up on the XD cameras as a single box with a smaller point inside. It allows for more precise focusing on subjects when the single point selection box is too large to get a precise focus. Unfortunately, it is not on the R.


Got it. Thanks!  Maybe on the R Mark II.


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## Don Haines (Dec 22, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> As I understand spot AF, the R has it. But please tell me if I am wrong. I could very well be wrong. If I hold down the AF point/index/magnify/reduce button (#10 on page 29 in the manual), I can use the Quick Control Dial and Main Dials to put the AF point wherever I want it and it will lock the AF point in place. It won't track around. To get out of that mode, just hit the AF Point/Index/Magnify/Reduce button again. Kind of awkward to do at first, but it works. Are we talking about the same thing? It works kind of the same way moving the AF point around with the joystick on my old 5D Mark III.
> 
> It does not, of course, work in eye AF mode... but works in every other mode.


On my 7D2, you can select an individual AF point from any of the AF points, but the spot AF point is only the one centre point. Are we talking about spot AF or single point AF?


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## Travel_Photographer (Dec 22, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> On my 7D2, you can select an individual AF point from any of the AF points, but the spot AF point is only the one centre point. Are we talking about spot AF or single point AF?



They're taking about the size of the actual box that is the AF point. On the RP, there is the "standard" size box (1-Point AF), which let's say for example at a given distance is the size of a person's whole nose when standing 5 feet away. But the RP also has another autofocus method called "Spot AF" which is a tiny little square, that at the same distance might only be the size of an eye's pupil. That "Spot AF" allows for very precise autofocus on a tiny part of the subject. The posts above are referencing the fact that the tiny box is not available on the R, only the RP at this point.


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## unfocused (Dec 22, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> On my 7D2, you can select an individual AF point from any of the AF points, but the spot AF point is only the one centre point. Are we talking about spot AF or single point AF?





Travel_Photographer said:


> They're taking about the size of the actual box that is the AF point. On the RP, there is the "standard" size box (1-Point AF), which let's say for example at a given distance is the size of a person's whole nose when standing 5 feet away. But the RP also has another autofocus method called "Spot AF" which is a tiny little square, that at the same distance might only be the size of an eye's pupil. That "Spot AF" allows for very precise autofocus on a tiny part of the subject. The posts above are referencing the fact that the tiny box is not available on the R, only the RP at this point.


Correct. And I just checked my 7DII and you can move the Spot AF point anywhere you can move the single AF point.


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## Ozarker (Dec 22, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> On my 7D2, you can select an individual AF point from any of the AF points, but the spot AF point is only the one centre point. Are we talking about spot AF or single point AF?


As you know, I am an idiot on the technical side of things. I reckon I am talking about single point and they are talking about spot AF... which I have not missed since I didn't know the difference anyway.  With 5655 AF points on the R, how small would "spot AF" actually be? It seems moot to me.


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## Ozarker (Dec 22, 2019)

Travel_Photographer said:


> They're taking about the size of the actual box that is the AF point. On the RP, there is the "standard" size box (1-Point AF), which let's say for example at a given distance is the size of a person's whole nose when standing 5 feet away. But the RP also has another autofocus method called "Spot AF" which is a tiny little square, that at the same distance might only be the size of an eye's pupil. That "Spot AF" allows for very precise autofocus on a tiny part of the subject. The posts above are referencing the fact that the tiny box is not available on the R, only the RP at this point.
> 
> View attachment 187880


At that distance, I cannot see what difference it would make at all. It might make a difference, but I wouldn't be able to tell. There's more than a single AF point in both examples if that is from an RP.


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## Travel_Photographer (Dec 22, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> At that distance, I cannot see what difference it would make at all. It might make a difference, but I wouldn't be able to tell. There's more than a single AF point in both examples if that is from an RP.



Maybe a better example would be useful, since I actually use the Spot AF all the time. This week I wanted to take a photo of my Christmas tree with the lights. The string of lights is several inches inside the tree, with the tips of each tree branch closer to me than the lights themselves. I wanted to autofocus on the lights inside the tree, not the branches. The "standard size" AF box was too big, even with an individual light centered in the AF box, the AF system picked up on the tree branches that *were also* in the AF box, since the box is somewhat large. I switched to Spot AF, which shrunk the box itself and centered that tiny box on a single light. Since the AF box was much smaller, there were no tree branches interfering and it quickly autofocused on the lights that were several inches further back. Sure I could have switched to manual focus and manually-focused on the lights, but it was much easier / quicker to just shrink the AF box, and I could move all around the tree at different angles and distances and instantly AF on the lights for each photo.


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## unfocused (Dec 22, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> At that distance, I cannot see what difference it would make at all. It might make a difference, but I wouldn't be able to tell. There's more than a single AF point in both examples if that is from an RP.


I don't know about the RP, but with DSLRs it is very helpful when trying to focus on the eye of a bird, rather than just the head.


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## Michael Clark (Dec 23, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> On my 7D2, you can select an individual AF point from any of the AF points, but the spot AF point is only the one centre point. Are we talking about spot AF or single point AF?



On my 7D Mark II, any of the 65 AF points can be used in 'Spot AF' mode.


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## Michael Clark (Dec 23, 2019)

Travel_Photographer said:


> They're taking about the size of the actual box that is the AF point. On the RP, there is the "standard" size box (1-Point AF), which let's say for example at a given distance is the size of a person's whole nose when standing 5 feet away. But the RP also has another autofocus method called "Spot AF" which is a tiny little square, that at the same distance might only be the size of an eye's pupil. That "Spot AF" allows for very precise autofocus on a tiny part of the subject. The posts above are referencing the fact that the tiny box is not available on the R, only the RP at this point.
> 
> View attachment 187880



Except the actual area of sensitivity for AF "points" are much larger than the boxes you see in the viewfinder.

It is true that the area of sensitivity is smaller for 'Spot AF' than for '1-point AF', but neither are the actual size of the little squares you see in the viewfinder.


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## AlanF (Dec 23, 2019)

unfocused said:


> I don't know about the RP, but with DSLRs it is very helpful when trying to focus on the eye of a bird, rather than just the head.


Quite right. And, even more importantly to focus on the small bird itself perched in a tree framed in branches rather than a twig. With advancing eye-AF the eye problem is being solved, but spot AF is so useful In general for nature photography.


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## koenkooi (Dec 23, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Quite right. And, even more importantly to focus on the small bird itself perched in a tree framed in branches rather than a twig. With advancing eye-AF the eye problem is being solved, but spot AF is so useful In general for nature photography.



Yes! Spot AF worked great for me this summer when photographing butterflies, the regular sized AF point struggled a lot when pointed at the proboscis. 





Of course you can get the same without AF as well:




I was surprised how much I preferred the RP over the R when shooting macro, although my main issue was self inflicted: turning on mechanical first curtain on the R for the f/1.2 lenses and forget to turn it off for the 100mm macro.


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## AlanF (Dec 23, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> Yes! Spot AF worked great for me this summer when photographing butterflies, the regular sized AF point struggled a lot when pointed at the proboscis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fortunately the 90D has spot focus. I passed on the 80D because it didn't.


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## navastronia (Dec 29, 2019)

Travel_Photographer said:


> They're taking about the size of the actual box that is the AF point. On the RP, there is the "standard" size box (1-Point AF), which let's say for example at a given distance is the size of a person's whole nose when standing 5 feet away. But the RP also has another autofocus method called "Spot AF" which is a tiny little square, that at the same distance might only be the size of an eye's pupil. That "Spot AF" allows for very precise autofocus on a tiny part of the subject. The posts above are referencing the fact that the tiny box is not available on the R, only the RP at this point.
> 
> View attachment 187880



Can you set Spot AF to track a subject on the RP?

EDIT: I use Face/Eye detect with my RP with servo AF tracking enabled, but when there is no face in the frame, the autofocus box used is the size of the 1-Pt AF box described in your post above (which works tracking subjects). Within these schema, is there a way to make the "subject tracking" box the size of the Spot AF box rather than the 1-Pt AF box? Sorry if I'm using incorrect terminology - long day editing wedding photos.


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## Travel_Photographer (Dec 29, 2019)

navastronia said:


> Can you set Spot AF to track a subject on the RP?
> 
> EDIT: I use Face/Eye detect with my RP with servo AF tracking enabled, but when there is no face in the frame, the autofocus box used is the size of the 1-Pt AF box described in your post above (which works tracking subjects). Within these schema, is there a way to make the "subject tracking" box the size of the Spot AF box rather than the 1-Pt AF box? Sorry if I'm using incorrect terminology - long day editing wedding photos.



Your terminology is perfect! With both 1-pt AF and and Spot AF, there is no tracking. For tracking I mostly use Face / Eye detect as you described. That works really well in most situations. If the subject is mostly centered in the frame OR I like having a static "focus framing box" (I made that term up) I like Zone AF, which puts a nice large white box in the middle of the frame (but smaller than the whole frame) which it will then choose what to focus on within that large white box.

But to answer your question directly, the tiny "Spot AF" box remains stationary once you set it. You need to either move the camera to point the box somewhere else on your subject, or move the AF box with your finger on the touch screen.


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## Maz0327 (Jan 3, 2020)

Any one hear anything anywhere about what kind of possible video capabilities this thing will have? How realistic is it to think they might add 120p in FULL HD ???


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## Ozarker (Jan 3, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> ... turning on mechanical first curtain on the R for the f/1.2 lenses and forget to turn it off for the 100mm macro.


I would love to know the reason for 1st curtain on the 1.2 lenses and then 2nd curtain for macro. Those two things confuse and confound me. I have no idea about the difference. Thanks!


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## padam (Jan 3, 2020)

Maz0327 said:


> Any one hear anything anywhere about what kind of possible video capabilities this thing will have? How realistic is it to think they might add 120p in FULL HD ???


It will come with it, that is for sure. But the DPAF might not work just like the M6 Mark II or 90D, it's up to them what they allow (and how the price the camera in relation to those features).
Same thing with uncropped 4k: it will have it, but it may not sample the whole sensor, so it will be softer than cropped 4k (on the upside, the rolling shutter will be kept in check)


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## Maz0327 (Jan 4, 2020)

Hey man I’ll take the 120p. I’ve been dying for the EOS R but I’ve been hesitant over the fact it doesn’t have 120p. Now if there was no MKII in the works I would’ve dropped the cash for it yesterday but soon as I hear about the MKII I have to wait. God I hope it gets that 120p DPAF or not. Although it would be unfortunate with our DPAF. I imagine they have incentive to include to compete with Sony.


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## koenkooi (Jan 4, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I would love to know the reason for 1st curtain on the 1.2 lenses and then 2nd curtain for macro. Those two things confuse and confound me. I have no idea about the difference. Thanks!



From what I understood using both mechanical curtains will get you proper f/1.2 bokeh at f/1.4, f/1.2 using an electronic first curtain will make it look like a narrower aperture.
For macro I want to avoid shutter shock, so using electronic first curtain will avoid the shock at the start of the capture, which is where it counts.

This post seems to sum it up nicely: https://petapixel.com/2018/12/07/ps...in-shutter-may-be-quietly-hurting-your-bokeh/


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## Ozarker (Jan 4, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> From what I understood using both mechanical curtains will get you proper f/1.2 bokeh at f/1.4, using an electronic first curtain will make it look like a narrower aperture.
> For macro I want to avoid shutter shock, so using electronic first curtain will avoid the shock at the start of the capture, which is where it counts.
> 
> This post seems to sum it up nicely: https://petapixel.com/2018/12/07/ps...in-shutter-may-be-quietly-hurting-your-bokeh/


Thanks!


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## telemaque (Jan 10, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Yes! Spot AF worked great for me this summer when photographing butterflies, the regular sized AF point struggled a lot when pointed at the proboscis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


superb pictures. Congrats.


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## gouldopfl (Jan 11, 2020)

bergstrom said:


> Including all the firmware updates in the mark 1 , what can the mark2 give us that was missing in the first one?


Focus stacking which they put in the RP but not the R. Hopefully the new sensors will handle depth of field issues. Now that Canon has said no new EF glass, they can create some non "L" glass and 3rd parties will start making RF lenses.


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## Ozarker (Jan 11, 2020)

gouldopfl said:


> Focus stacking which they put in the RP but not the R. Hopefully the new sensors will handle depth of field issues. Now that Canon has said no new EF glass, they can create some non "L" glass and 3rd parties will start making RF lenses.


Depth of field issues?
When has Canon said, " No more EF glass"?


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## Macoose (Jan 11, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Depth of field issues?
> When has Canon said, " No more EF glass"?


He may be referring to this article.








Canon to focus on Canon RF lenses, not EF


Canon has stated this before, but in a recent interview with DCW, DigitalCameraWorld, Richard Shepherd, pro product marketing senior manager at Canon Europe stated; As you know, last year we launched the RF mount and EOS R system. To date we’ve launched ten critically acclaimed lenses, and as...



www.canonnews.com


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## unfocused (Jan 11, 2020)

Macoose said:


> He may be referring to this article.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Probably. Unfortunately, this is one of the silly things about news today, the internet and forums. Another website took the quote from the Canon executive, blew it way out of proportion and added a deceptive headline. People are sharing that story without even reading what the Canon executive said, which is clearly* NOT* what the headline claims.


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## Ozarker (Jan 11, 2020)

Macoose said:


> He may be referring to this article.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Says nothing about "depth of field issues" (whatever that is) or abandoning EF. In fact it says, "we plan to continue this, launching more RF lenses while still fully supporting the EF lens system. "


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## Macoose (Jan 11, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Probably. Unfortunately, this is one of the silly things about news today, the internet and forums. Another website took the quote from the Canon executive, blew it way out of proportion and added a deceptive headline. People are sharing that story without even reading what the Canon executive said, which is clearly* NOT* what the headline claims.


At the time I replied to CFB, I hadn't seen the other website you mentioned. You are right that they frequently blow things out of proportion. As soon as I saw what you wrote, I knew who it was.
Thanks for pointing it out.
I'm not adding a link because they don't deserve the clicks.


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## telemaque (Jan 14, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Probably. Unfortunately, this is one of the silly things about news today, the internet and forums. Another website took the quote from the Canon executive, blew it way out of proportion and added a deceptive headline. People are sharing that story without even reading what the Canon executive said, which is clearly* NOT* what the headline claims.


Agree completely with you. I talked with a Canon executive in November 2019 at French Photo fair and he confirmed they will focus on RF lenses because they need to have sufficient lenses to offer for R bodies. However, he made it clear EF lenses line is continuying as their professional sport photographers are going to continue to buy EF Bodies like the 1DX series. He told me, but honestly I do not understand why, that an mirror body is the only serious option to have the highest burst rate...(?). I would have thought a mirrorless body would offer better burst rate, but apparently I am wrong.


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## Adam Shutter Bug (Jan 19, 2020)

If Canon were smart they would offer an EOS R trade in program for the mk2 get a good discount and promote sales from those that only brought a new camera 12 months ago and gives them plenty of materials to recycle back in to production lines to save manufacturing costs as most of the parts will be the same.


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## Optics Patent (Jan 19, 2020)

Adam Shutter Bug said:


> If Canon were smart they would offer an EOS R trade in program for the mk2 get a good discount and promote sales from those that only brought a new camera 12 months ago and gives them plenty of materials to recycle back in to production lines to save manufacturing costs as most of the parts will be the same.



I hope that is tongue in cheek. Making new cameras with used trade-in parts would be a marketing disaster and greatly increase production costs in essentially any plausible scenario.

The R models perform just as well as promised, so no need for a profit-killing trade-in.


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## BorderCollie (Feb 22, 2020)

Looking to move from my Nikon D750 to Canon mirrorless. Any more news on EOS R Mark II?


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## Jasonmc89 (Feb 22, 2020)

BorderCollie said:


> Looking to move from my Nikon D750 to Canon mirrorless. Any more news on EOS R Mark II?


It’s most likely the R5


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## SecureGSM (Feb 22, 2020)

BorderCollie said:


> Looking to move from my Nikon D750 to Canon mirrorless. Any more news on EOS R Mark II?


Yes, it is called Canon EOS R5, it has been announced (development) and is expected to hit shelves in July 2020. Good camera.


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## BorderCollie (Feb 22, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> It’s most likely the R5


Thanks


Jasonmc89 said:


> It’s most likely the R5


Thanks Jasonmc89. Not sure why but I was under the impression the R5 was higher end. Fingers crossed the specs are good and affordable.


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## BorderCollie (Feb 22, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Yes, it is called Canon EOS R5, it has been announced (development) and is expected to hit shelves in July 2020. Good camera.


Thanks SecureGSM. Not sure why but I was under the impression the R5 was higher end. Fingers crossed the specs are good and affordable.


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## Jasonmc89 (Feb 23, 2020)

BorderCollie said:


> Thanks
> 
> Thanks Jasonmc89. Not sure why but I was under the impression the R5 was higher end. Fingers crossed the specs are good and affordable.


Specs good.. yes

Affordable.. no!

probably be about £3500


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## Czardoom (Feb 23, 2020)

BorderCollie said:


> Looking to move from my Nikon D750 to Canon mirrorless. Any more news on EOS R Mark II?



Whether there will be an R II is pretty much unknown at the present time. The R5 is obviously not the R II as it is much higher end and more expensive. We will have to see where the rumored R6 falls into the pricing structure as well. There may still be room for the R II, but my guess is that no one, maybe not even Canon, knows exactly how many R bodies there will be.


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## Athomp2002 (Mar 28, 2020)

What’s the point of the EOS R6 then? I don’t understand this move at all! There is the canon RP, the EOS R6, and a new version of the R coming out! it would make more sense to do away with the RP, and the R6 then make the R a little more affordable, release the R5 and come out with a mega pixel powerhouse and a couple of sports focused cameras.


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## SteveC (Mar 28, 2020)

I wouldn't be surprised if the R mark II is identical to one of the two models--i.e., the R6 (maybe) is simply an upgrade AND renaming of the R. Or maybe the R5 is.

R and RP don't fit into any sort of Canon-style naming convention with a number in it, so I'm imagining someone in charge of branding is regretting those names.


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## Athomp2002 (Mar 28, 2020)

SteveC said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the R mark II is identical to one of the two models--i.e., the R6 (maybe) is simply an upgrade AND renaming of the R. Or maybe the R5 is.
> 
> R and RP don't fit into any sort of Canon-style naming convention with a number in it, so I'm imagining someone in charge of branding is regretting those names.



all that makes sense. So basically, we can look for the RP to be removed and the R6 to possibly be the RP replacement? Or what if they did the RII, the R6 replaced the RP, came with the R5 and 2 versions of the R1 (one for sports with way more speed and one high end/high Mega pixel count with a higher dynamic range for fashion and events). They’ve done that before with the flagship cameras... although that was a very long time ago! That would be interesting!


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## gouldopfl (Mar 29, 2020)

The RP will.IMO be in the plans because is their mirrorless that is under 1k. I believe the R will stay in the lineup because it is a very good camera for vloggers. The R5 and R6 will be the mirrorless replacement for 5 series. The R6 for the six series. I keep hearing about a high pixel camera but IMO the next one in 2021 will probably be a R1 the mirrorless replacement for the 1 Dx mark iii. I don't think it would be in 2021 but now that the Olympics has been delayed until 2021, they will bring this to market before the Olympics


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## Athomp2002 (Mar 29, 2020)

gouldopfl said:


> The RP will.IMO be in the plans because is their mirrorless that is under 1k. I believe the R will stay in the lineup because it is a very good camera for vloggers. The R5 and R6 will be the mirrorless replacement for 5 series. The R6 for the six series. I keep hearing about a high pixel camera but IMO the next one in 2021 will probably be a R1 the mirrorless replacement for the 1 Dx mark iii. I don't think it would be in 2021 but now that the Olympics has been delayed until 2021, they will bring this to market before the Olympics


Yeah. I think giving the higher mega pixel camera the R1 title, and making it a studio flag ship camera will be the goal if they are aiming for professions at 75-150 mega pixels. That only makes sense instead of creating some sort of R5 and charging only $500 more. I also expect the R1 sports style camera will be Above 30 mega pixels and they will still find a way to have it shoot 20-25 FPS w/ electronic shutter. But, this is all speculation at this point. I’m looking forward to seeing what they do. The last thing I would love to see is the flagship camera (the R1) being a full body camera with a full grip for vertical and horizontal shooting. I saw Sony introduced the grip with theirs and that’s how you unlock the rest of the power that Camera has to offer. While I think that camera is brilliant... I thought that move was kind of cheap! I hope cannon doesn’t follow suit with that same approach.


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## gouldopfl (Mar 29, 2020)

Athomp2002 said:


> Yeah. I think giving the higher mega pixel camera the R1 title, and making it a studio flag ship camera will be the goal if they are aiming for professions at 75-150 mega pixels. That only makes sense instead of creating some sort of R5 and charging only $500 more. I also expect the R1 sports style camera will be Above 30 mega pixels and they will still find a way to have it shoot 20-25 FPS w/ electronic shutter. But, this is all speculation at this point. I’m looking forward to seeing what they do. The last thing I would love to see is the flagship camera (the R1) being a full body camera with a full grip for vertical and horizontal shooting. I saw Sony introduced the grip with theirs and that’s how you unlock the rest of the power that Camera has to offer. While I think that camera is brilliant... I thought that move was kind of cheap! I hope cannon doesn’t follow suit with that same approach.


I have the grip for the EOS R and while it makes vertical shooting easier, the two batteries are used together so it isn't like other grips where one battery is used and when discharged it switches to the next one. The grip still gets more shots than a single battery but the grip is almost as heavy as the camera.


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## Franklyok (Apr 4, 2020)

And now with the R5 and R6 the source is in great shame.


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