# Reprimanded for a photograph



## CanadianInvestor (Aug 9, 2013)

_(apologies in advance... could not upload even a 2MB file and hence the link)_

The photograph below was taken in Dubai Mall, ostensibly the largest mall in the world. The subject was 30 m from me and what caught my eye was the shoes she was wearing under the head-to—toe garment referred to as Abaya. When I showed it to my expat host, he said that I should be careful and not publicise this photo since, ‘Here, we are not free to do things as you would do in the West’. This seemed rather odd. I have travelled extensively and I think I am culturally sensitive. Has any one else among the rumour-mongers experienced this real or perceived Gestapo mentality when it came to otherwise innocuous photographs. I can understand one’s handlers in Pyongyang not allowing you to point your camera in a particular direction but when no apparent reason exists, a ‘police state’ mentality governing photography would be interesting.

Your experiences on this front are welcome.



http://www.flickr.com/photos/angelinvestor/9335974625/#


----------



## JPAZ (Aug 9, 2013)

First, nice shot of a moving object from that distance. Second, there is no way to identify the person nor do I find this photo insensitive. One must always respect local customs and cultures and I could see where technically this might "reveal" more than that society deems proper, but I see no problem with this photo.


----------



## jdramirez (Aug 9, 2013)

You know what I find offensive, sex in the city 2.


----------



## J.R. (Aug 9, 2013)

There is nothing wrong in the photo obviously, but ... Religion (and corresponding clothing) is a pretty sensitive issue in some parts of the Middle East. What might seem innocuous to western society may appear blasphemous to certain fanatical sections of the Middle Eastern society. 

Most fundamentalists have the attitude of shooting the messenger so it is better to be safe than sorry!


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Aug 9, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> You know what I find offensive, sex in the city 2.



Or just a catch all 'Sex in the city'.

To be honest with the OP, I wouldn't even try this in a Glasgow shopping mall.


----------



## TAF (Aug 9, 2013)

CanadianInvestor said:


> The photograph below was taken in Dubai Mall, ostensibly the largest mall in the world. The subject was 30 m from me and what caught my eye was the shoes she was wearing under the head-to—toe garment referred to as Abaya. When I showed it to my expat host, he said that I should be careful and not publicise this photo since, ‘Here, we are not free to do things as you would do in the West’. This seemed rather odd. I have travelled extensively and I think I am culturally sensitive. Has any one else among the rumour-mongers experienced this real or perceived Gestapo mentality when it came to otherwise innocuous photographs. I can understand one’s handlers in Pyongyang not allowing you to point your camera in a particular direction but when no apparent reason exists, a ‘police state’ mentality governing photography would be interesting.



Excellent photo, well done. However, even though it's too late now, I would have paid very careful attention to your host if you ever planned on visiting that country again. I'm not certain I would do so.

You may believe yourself culturally sensitive, and in the western sense you may very well be, but in this case I think you stepped on a geopolitical landmine. You've just posted a photo that completely skewers one of the grand perceptions that middle eastern Islam has presented to the west - that the religious requirements that we in the west find so odd are pervasive throughout society, and that their womenfolk fully support them.

Those shoes are either a remarkable protest against that particular requirement of her religion, or a demonstration that those requirements are for public consumption only. Neither plays well amongst the hard line religious folks who run those countries and who have an unpleasant habit of executing people who they believe have embarrassed them or disrespected their religion. I think you just did both.

So yes, there really is something wrong with the photo, if you plan on ever returning to that part of the world.

As for the North Korea comparison, at least they're consistent with the western perspective. They don't want photos showing how destitute their country is (politically embarrassing), or what their military is doing (could work against them in the next war, which they expect any moment). Much easier to understand than religious thinking.


----------



## J.R. (Aug 9, 2013)

paul13walnut5 said:


> To be honest with the OP, I wouldn't even try this in a Glasgow shopping mall.



Any specific reason Paul? Other than the possibility that the lady in the picture was accompanied by a gorilla sized boyfriend.


----------



## sanj (Aug 9, 2013)

I know the mentality of the non-residents of Dubai well. They are shit scared of the locals and the authorities. 
I find this photo to be a non issue.


----------



## Jay Khaos (Aug 9, 2013)

An ankle shot in Dubai is like a full nude in NYC...

Key & Peele: Karim and Jahar


----------



## TexPhoto (Aug 9, 2013)

TAF said:


> Excellent photo, well done. However, even though it's too late now, I would have paid very careful attention to your host if you ever planned on visiting that country again. I'm not certain I would do so.
> 
> You may believe yourself culturally sensitive, and in the western sense you may very well be, but in this case I think you stepped on a geopolitical landmine. You've just posted a photo that completely skewers one of the grand perceptions that middle eastern Islam has presented to the west - that the religious requirements that we in the west find so odd are pervasive throughout society, and that their womenfolk fully support them.
> 
> ...



Definitely agree here. Let me ask the OP this: Why didn't you approach the woman and show her your great photo? Ask her to pose for you? If what you did was "culturally sensitive", why did you have to be secretive?

And it's not "referred to as Abaya". Your not wearing something on your torrso _reffered to as a shirt_, it's a shirt. You sound like a British explorer discussing the savages you viewed while on Safari.

I live in a land of topless beaches, but whip out a big camera and lens, and the Police will stop by and explain "culturally sensitivity", possibly with a night stick.


----------



## JPAZ (Aug 9, 2013)

I am about to tick off some people, but feel the need to say a bit. I have traveled, and continue to travel, to some remarkable places on the planet. I have had the opportunity to travel to some of the holiest (insert your own definition here) Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu and Buddhist places on the planet. Please withhold the commentary about my Western attitude or parochialism.

When in any part of the world, I try to adhere to local cultural and religious sensitivities. I'd not enter a cathedral during services with a flash nor a Mosque without conservative attire and permission. I generally ask people before I take their photo. I take anyone's refusal to be photographed seriously. 

But, seeing a man with a pot belly, t-shirt and baggy jeans smoking a cigarette followed by a woman covered head to foot in fabric (and the appropriate number of paces behind) on a 40 degree Celcius day is not culture or religion. It is repression and essentially slavery justified as culture and religion. Once, as part of an educational experience a group of us (male and female) tried on this garb and I can tell you it is pretty miserable. 

So, that being said, I don't spend my $ in a place like Dubai. I try to respect all people for their beliefs. But, I do not support some of those beliefs. This woman chose to wear those shoes. Maybe that's her way of making a statement. Someone in the background is clearly dressed in jeans with ankles showing. I have no issue with this photo.


----------



## Hesbehindyou (Aug 9, 2013)

*Your friend's advice was excellent*



CanadianInvestor said:


> When I showed it to my expat host, he said that I should be careful and not publicise this photo since, ‘Here, we are not free to do things as you would do in the West’. This seemed rather odd. I have travelled extensively and I think I am culturally sensitive.



Oh how naive you are! I find it best to be very respectful of a country's laws and social norms - I leave pushing the boundaries to the locals. This is kinda what culturally sensitive means.

From the _Dubai Code of Conduct_, written by the Dubai Executive Council and linked to on the official Dubai web portal (scroll to bottom of page) http://dubai.ae/en/Lists/Articles/DispForm.aspx?ID=147

*4.5. Photography:

Photos of people - and especially photos of women and families - in public places shall not be taken without their permission. Taking photos of people is a sensitive issue in Dubai's local culture.*

So you've got a photo of a woman wearing sexy shoes and showing her ankles & taken without her permission. Your only defence is "it doesn't show her face/she's not identifiable".

Your friend's advice was excellent.


----------



## sdsr (Aug 9, 2013)

JPAZ said:


> I am about to tick off some people, but feel the need to say a bit. I have traveled, and continue to travel, to some remarkable places on the planet. I have had the opportunity to travel to some of the holiest (insert your own definition here) Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu and Buddhist places on the planet. Please withhold the commentary about my Western attitude or parochialism.
> 
> When in any part of the world, I try to adhere to local cultural and religious sensitivities. I'd not enter a cathedral during services with a flash nor a Mosque without conservative attire and permission. I generally ask people before I take their photo. I take anyone's refusal to be photographed seriously.
> 
> But, seeing a man with a pot belly, t-shirt and baggy jeans smoking a cigarette followed by a woman covered head to foot in fabric (and the appropriate number of paces behind) on a 40 degree Celcius day is not culture or religion. It is repression and essentially slavery justified as culture and religion. Once, as part of an educational experience a group of us (male and female) tried on this garb and I can tell you it is pretty miserable.



I'm not at all "ticked off," but I do find it a bit odd that you don't seem to realize that what you say in your third paragraph is a manifestation of the "Western attitude" mentioned in your first paragraph, not some objective, universal moral truth.


----------



## alexanderferdinand (Aug 9, 2013)

I would be very careful in a country, where you are not a member of the leading religious group like in Dubai.

If you are getting in trouble, youre rights dont mean very much. Youre some kind of a minor human being compared to the rights of someone with the "correct" religion.

You dont believe this?

An Austrian MD was leading a intensive care unit in Dubai.
He was accused killing someone by giving him morphin.
Didnt matter, if he was correct or not, they even didnt let him speak.
Sentenced him to death.

Never ever want to visit a country like this.

Be careful.


----------



## jdramirez (Aug 9, 2013)

sdsr said:


> JPAZ said:
> 
> 
> > I am about to tick off some people, but feel the need to say a bit. I have traveled, and continue to travel, to some remarkable places on the planet. I have had the opportunity to travel to some of the holiest (insert your own definition here) Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu and Buddhist places on the planet. Please withhold the commentary about my Western attitude or parochialism.
> ...



do you really want to have a philosophical debate about morality? I'm pretty sure my minor in philosophy prepared me for a moment like this... unless it was just blow off classes... then it prepared me for Jack squat.


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Aug 9, 2013)

J.R. said:


> paul13walnut5 said:
> 
> 
> > To be honest with the OP, I wouldn't even try this in a Glasgow shopping mall.
> ...



I deal with security every day in Scotland, I'm a cameraman / editor for a publishing company and we record in all sorts of locations. Shopping malls are generally bad news. On the street the principle of queens highway applies on public land, on private or enclosed spaces you are often at the mercy of the landowner or their agents. The approximate law is that you can prevented on private land so long as an objection has made or there are signs stating no photography.

The only time I've nearly came close to hitting somebody in anger in my adult life was at a shopping mall near my home. I had jumped in after work to buy a sandwich for a quick snack. I got stopped by a guard because i was carrying a tripod over my shoulder. Not a camera, camera tucked away in rucksack. But a tripod.

It became very heated and the guy was a moron, who had to concede that he had a mobile with a camera, wheras my camera was packed away and that you can't capture images with a tripod alone.

I wouldn;t not have thought this shot worth the hassle.
I wouldn't have been confident about the cultural norms of photographing an exposed part of an otherwise concealed body.
I don't speak arabic.
I don't know the law.
I just wouldn't do it.
On a personal basis.

If I was being paid on a job to get it, I'd find a way, but I can't think of a realistic circumstance where that would occur.


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Aug 9, 2013)

Jay Khaos said:


> An ankle shot in Dubai is like a full nude in NYC...
> 
> Key & Peele: Karim and Jahar



Monty Python - Nudge Nudge


----------



## Don Haines (Aug 9, 2013)

I would not have taken that photo in any country without the permission of the lady involved.

For one, you have showed great disrespect to the lady (according to her beliefs). Secondly, you are lucky to have not been detained and have had your camera "dropped and broken" to teach you a lesson. You were not in Los Vegas or L.A.......


----------



## Marsu42 (Aug 9, 2013)

CanadianInvestor said:


> Your experiences on this front are welcome.



No picture is subversive itself, but only the message you read from it. And your picture might be read as saying that women are banned from wearing attractive fashion, but they defy this regulation by wearing it semi-hidden ... and here you touch *the* hot potato between religions and "clash of cultures".

I'm German and live in Berlin, and in the former east German GDR people were imprisoned for just this sort of picture/poem/... because authorities knew the citizens were trained to "read between the lines" - if you'd play innocent like "I can point my camera anywhere" this'd been a one way ticket to the Staatssicherheit prison and solitary confinement. As Dubai and neighboring arab countries are authoritarian states (you can also simply call them dictatorships) you get the idea...


----------



## brett b (Aug 9, 2013)

Recently, a Norwegien woman was raped in Dubai. She reported the rape and they gave HER a 16 month prison sentence for sex outside of marriage. The rape case never saw the light of day. 

You say you have travelled extensively, so why would you ignore the advise of your host?


----------



## Larry (Aug 9, 2013)

TexPhoto said:


> Let me ask the OP this: Why didn't you approach the woman and show her your great photo? Ask her to pose for you? If what you did was "culturally sensitive", why did you have to be secretive?





To speak, or not to speak, of the Emporer's new clothes:

The wearer in the photo is apparently content to be seen so attired in a public place (the Dubai Mall) frequented by visitors from all over the world.

The inter-net is "a public place frequented by visitors from all over the world".

I think the photo captures a "fact" of life.

I find the contrast between the traditional and the contemporary interesting.

If a certain religious sect dyed their children's' hair green, that also might be considered "interesting".

If the group considered any notice taking or comment by "unbelievers" about their green-hair custom sufficient justification for violence, …that too would be "interesting".

It would also be good reason to be "secretive" (as a previous poster seemed to disapprove of) when drawing attention to or discussing the sect's practices.

If the sect's (or any other group's) preferences were to be the determinant of what was to be known by the rest of the world, the general knowledge-pool would be seriously restricted.

I support the anti-censorship faction, and applaud the photographer, …but advise caution.


----------



## sdsr (Aug 9, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> sdsr said:
> 
> 
> > JPAZ said:
> ...



To the extent your point is that this isn't the best place to debate morality, you may be right - though that debate had already begun when I made my comment. But I would be quite happy to have a philosophical debate about morality otherwise, elsewhere, and am delighted to learn that you are prepared for one.


----------



## thepancakeman (Aug 9, 2013)

Strikes me as kinda like the pedestrian killed in the crosswalk who had the right-of-way. Just because you can do something or may even have the right to, doesn't mean you are not putting your life at risk by exercising that right.

So, the question you need to ask, is "Is this photo important enough to risk my life over"? It certainly wouldn't be for me, but you might make a different call.


----------



## jdramirez (Aug 9, 2013)

thepancakeman said:


> Strikes me as kinda like the pedestrian killed in the crosswalk who had the right-of-way. Just because you can do something or may even have the right to, doesn't mean you are not putting your life at risk by exercising that right.
> 
> So, the question you need to ask, is "Is this photo important enough to risk my life over"? It certainly wouldn't be for me, but you might make a different call.



give me a few to brush up on my Kant and Hegal... all I remember at the moment is that I was so bored... oh and the blonde with the long legs.


----------



## risc32 (Aug 9, 2013)

sweet sweet dubai. http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/Apr/130415emmet.htm

BTW- that photo is making me randy !


----------



## Jay Khaos (Aug 9, 2013)

I know everyone loves to jump on the "americans are ignorant fatasses" bandwagon because it's easier than making a rational argument.... but come here to Orlando, FL (Disney and all of the parks/resorts) and tell me westerners are the only ones who are ignorant to foreign cultures and norms... Youll find easterners and europeans by the boatload portraying a bunch of lame stereotypes commonly associated with their own cultures that probably don't pertain to the average person where they are from...

I like the photo and I like it even more knowing there is controversy or risk of injury in getting it... ****** that lady's ankle (jk lol)...


----------



## AdamJ (Aug 9, 2013)

risc32 said:


> sweet sweet dubai. http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/Apr/130415emmet.htm
> 
> BTW- that photo is making me randy !



And that's the trouble with this photo. One man's insightful socioreligious commentary is another man's snapshot of a sexy pair of shoes. My first reaction to the photo was to wonder whether the photographer has a shoe fetish.


----------



## robbinzo (Aug 9, 2013)

You have to exercise caution in the Middle East and be aware of what the law is, not what you believe is culturally sensitive.
I have worked in the middle east. I know people who have spents days in just prison for talking to a local woman in Iran.
The locals in UAE do like the trappings of Western culture. You see Burkas and Guchi handbags. It is a strange mix and it is normal. You are not allowed to drink but the law turns a blind eye. If you are in a trraffic accident with a local, it is automatically your fault because you shouldn't be in their country.
There is the recent case of Marte Deborah Dalelv who was imprisoned in UAE after being raped: "The 24-year-old reported the March attack to the police but found herself charged with having extramarital sex, drinking alcohol, and perjury."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23381448

This is not me being melodramatic but if you had been seen taking this photo you may have regretted it.


----------



## Don Haines (Aug 9, 2013)

It doesn't matter what the activity is or what the country is, when your guide/host says "don't do this" and you go ahead and do it anyway, you have burned some bridges. At the minimum you have lost a friend. Sometimes you will get away with it, sometime you will get robbed and beaten, sometimes jailed, sometimes....... it's not worth it.

Some societies are not tolerant of those who break thier rules.... you could have been arrested for that photo and most likely your host would have been arrested too.


----------



## surapon (Aug 9, 2013)

Dear Friends.
Yes, I travel around the world in every 2 years, and I have my Rules, when I go to another country:
1) Do not carry your PRESS Card/ PRESS BADGE ( Although you are the Press Photographer), That is the Sign of spies , who try to dig the Bad press/ Bad News in that Country ( Police state)---You might lose your Vacation time in the local Jail.
2) In the Night time, Leave the Big cameras and Big Lens with the Vault of the Hotel Manager's Office or With your Wife, who do not want to go with you.---Just Carry and Shoot the Photos with $ 150 US Dollars Cheap Pocket , Point and Shoot Camera .---IF the Bad Guy want them, Just ask very Polite to get the Memory Card Back, And Give some money to the Bad Guy to buy the New Memory card---And that will very safe from getting hurt.
3), Before you leave the Hotel to shoot in the early morning or night time for Beautiful Sunset/ Sun rise---Talk to the Hotel Manager , to hire the out of Duty Local staff./ Local Security Guard to go with you---Yes, Still use Cheap Point and Shoot Camera----Because the Hired guards , might have the Bad Friends , who need your Big Cameras and Big Lens that he see in that morning----when you check in the Hotel.
4) Go every where in another country, with the group of friends, or the big group of tourists---NEVER GO ALONE with your Big Gears, Yes, You might be disappear from the earth that day.
5), You Might get the Second spare Camera in the Backpack-----In-case of the Police Watch you take the photos of Beautiful Police station, Airport, or the Beautiful Palace, And That police do not like you, He might ask to see your Photos in the Camera, AND HIS HANDS too shake---He might Drop your Camera by Accident, And He might say Sorry to you---Yes, The Big Lens is Damaged and Your Big Camera is Gone too---Yes, You still have another Camera in your Back pack= That still good news.
6) YES, Before you shoot any Place, Try to see the Guards, or Police around there, and Ask Permission to take the Photos---Although, You try to shoot the Beautiful Toilet Building, Yes, You might Shoot the Very Important People , who just use that Toilet, And That Might be 1-2 Night in the Jail time, If the guy see you take his Photo.
7) never use Your I-Phone or the Smart Phone take any Photos---Yes, These Phone are very High cost in another country, and every one want them---If Some one do not like you use that Phone take the Photos, They might Grab your I-Phone and Run-----Too bad, They/ He run faster than you.
8) Never Put your Backpack under the table , when you in the restaurant, and try to go to the bath room, Yes, When you come back = Your bag is gone.
9) I love my KATA 3 in 1-30 Backpack--That I can modify the Belt and use as Front sling Bag, Keep my backpack on my front part of the Belly all the time, Day or night----OR I Wrap around my backpack with the Stainless steel Net Protection, From The Razor Blade or Box cutter from the Bad people.
10) Never drink any water from the glass---Just buy the Bottle water and keep with you all the time.

Enjoy my 2 cents Tricks that I use past 30 years, and just all the Good thing happens to me on all trip around the world.
Surapon Sujjavanich, AIA, CPS Gold Member
Apex, NC., USA.


----------



## Skulker (Aug 9, 2013)

paul13walnut5 said:


> I wouldn;t not have thought this shot worth the hassle.
> I wouldn't have been confident about the cultural norms of photographing an exposed part of an otherwise concealed body.
> I don't speak arabic.
> I don't know the law.
> ...



Agreed

+ when I'm traveling I like to respect the laws, traditions and culture of my hosts. Not much evidence of this going on in this shot. Clearly many locals would have found it offensive.


----------



## anthonyd (Aug 9, 2013)

A picture of a person, taken in public, does not capture anything that the person did not choose to show in the first place (unless we are taking about extraordinary circumstances, like a person falling, etc, that does not apply to the OP).
If the lady did not want her shoes to be seen, she would not have put such shoes on, or her husband/father/mother/whatever would have not let her put them on. I don't see why random people looking at her shoes is ok, but someone photographing them is not. Call me culturally insensitive, but I honestly don't see the difference between "seeing" and "photographing" -- and just wait for google glass 3.0, that will be a brain implant 

Regarding the advice "make sure the person knows you are taking a picture of them", I'm sorry, but that doesn't always work. I have personally traveled all over Europe, the US and a couple of places in China and I always make sure the person sees me when I take a picture of them (so they have the opportunity to say, or nod, "no", which I always respect). However, in the OP what was the photographer supposed to do? Run to the lady and tell her: "sorry to interrupt, but can you please keep walking the way you were just walking before, so I can take a picture of your contrasting shoes/dress"? c'mong now.

My view is simple: if you are hiding and/or taking a picture of a person showing them in a way they might have not wished to be seen, then you are not playing nice. If you are capturing something that everybody is seeing and the subject is aware of the visibility, well ... it's fair game.


----------



## surapon (Aug 9, 2013)

Yes, If you in USA, and take the Photos in USA ---Hear are the Rules/ Laws

http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

But Please do not use this Laws/ Rules any where else in the World, Because_______________
Enjoy
Surapon


----------



## TexPhoto (Aug 9, 2013)

Larry said:


> TexPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Let me ask the OP this: Why didn't you approach the woman and show her your great photo? Ask her to pose for you? If what you did was "culturally sensitive", why did you have to be secretive?
> ...



You are missing the point. I am *not* saying don't take the photo. I am saying don't take the photo and then try to portray your self as "culturally sensitive" when you have obviously broken a written (and well known) rule of that culture! And had that explained to you by your "part of that culture" guide.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 9, 2013)

anthonyd said:


> A picture of a person, taken in public, does not capture anything that the person did not choose to show in the first place (unless we are taking about extraordinary circumstances, like a person falling, etc, that does not apply to the OP).
> If the lady did not want her shoes to be seen, she would not have put such shoes on, or her husband/father/mother/whatever would have not let her put them on. I don't see why random people looking at her shoes is ok, but someone photographing them is not. Call me culturally insensitive, but I honestly don't see the difference between "seeing" and "photographing" -- and just wait for google glass 3.0, that will be a brain implant
> 
> Regarding the advice "make sure the person knows you are taking a picture of them", I'm sorry, but that doesn't always work. I have personally traveled all over Europe, the US and a couple of places in China and I always make sure the person sees me when I take a picture of them (so they have the opportunity to say, or nod, "no", which I always respect). However, in the OP what was the photographer supposed to do? Run to the lady and tell her: "sorry to interrupt, but can you please keep walking the way you were just walking before, so I can take a picture of your contrasting shoes/dress"? c'mong now.
> ...


 
Its complicated. Taking the photos is often allowed, but posting them on the internet can be invasion of privacy, and posting them on a for profit site where the site makes money based on photos posted there might run into more legal difficulties.

A photo should not be posted on the internet without written permission. In some Muslim countries, they will attack or even jail the woman who didn't even know here photo was taken.


----------



## sdsr (Aug 9, 2013)

anthonyd said:


> A picture of a person, taken in public, does not capture anything that the person did not choose to show in the first place (unless we are taking about extraordinary circumstances, like a person falling, etc, that does not apply to the OP).
> If the lady did not want her shoes to be seen, she would not have put such shoes on, or her husband/father/mother/whatever would have not let her put them on. I don't see why random people looking at her shoes is ok, but someone photographing them is not. Call me culturally insensitive, but I honestly don't see the difference between "seeing" and "photographing"



But some do see a difference. The Amish, for instance, tend to view photographs as graven images, don't like having their photographs taken, and disapprove of portrait photography. 

http://www.padutchcountry.com/towns-and-heritage/amish-country/amish-and-photographs.asp

Fortunately for those who don't respect their views, they're also pacifists....


----------



## Larry (Aug 9, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> In some Muslim countries, they will attack or even jail the woman who didn't even know here (sic) photo was taken.



One should be careful about accepting "facts" posted on the inter-net, but the very thought of such a practice must make a civilized person's jaw drop. Outrage is a very mild description for what I feel about the idea.

If it is in fact a result of the teachings of some religion, ..."respecting" that religion is incomprehensible to me.
Respect should not be a blank check.

Brutal behavior by any name is not a rose.


----------



## Don Haines (Aug 9, 2013)

The people's of the world do not share one set of beliefs. Weather we like it or not, foreign nations differ from ours and some of the rights we take for granted do not exist there.

It is one thing to disagree with those beliefs, it is another thing to travel to that country and violate those beliefs, potentially making yourself into a martyr and harming innocents through your outrage..... 

Even here in Canada, there have been several " honor killings" in the last few years committed by people from other cultures. To us, it is abhorrent, to them it is not. In several countries women have been know to spontaneously combust.... And the authorities look the other way.... In some countries you can be killed for going to school.... None of this is right by American or European standards, but it happens. The world is not all sweetness and flowers.


----------



## wsmith96 (Aug 9, 2013)

when in Rome, do as the Romans do.


----------



## mrsfotografie (Aug 9, 2013)

Taking photos of women in Oman and UAE is a sensitive issue (so I didn't), but the men are a proud people and although protective of their women, will gladly pose for you! Despite being generally apprehensive about people photography myself I took some really great shots. Truly a fantastic destination:






















And I love this shot especially (It's now a canvas in my dining room):






Did he mind??? This is what happened when I asked him if it was ok to take his photo:






More:

http://www.mrsfotografie.nl/reizen/oman-uae-2010/


----------



## mrsfotografie (Aug 9, 2013)

And one more just for the fun of it. I'm definitely going to travel to Oman and UAE some more!!!


----------



## Don Haines (Aug 9, 2013)

mrsfotografie said:


> Taking photos of women in Oman and UAE is a sensitive issue (so I didn't), but the men are a proud people and although protective of their women, will gladly pose for you! Despite being generally apprehensive about people photography myself I took some really great shots. Truly a fantastic destination:



Nice pics! See what happens when you ask nicely


----------



## mkabi (Aug 9, 2013)

*Re: Your friend's advice was excellent*



Hesbehindyou said:


> CanadianInvestor said:
> 
> 
> > When I showed it to my expat host, he said that I should be careful and not publicise this photo since, ‘Here, we are not free to do things as you would do in the West’. This seemed rather odd. I have travelled extensively and I think I am culturally sensitive.
> ...



I think they put this rule in place, because the majority follow Islam (???correct me if I am wrong).

I'm not muslim, but I have muslim friends and I vaguely remember one of them saying that they don't take pictures. In general, go to their homes, you won't see any family pictures, nothing. It has something to do with what the Qu'ran says... I think one of them told me that it reduces their lifespan by so many years. Its like our scientifically proven belief that smoking will reduce our lifespan... every cigarette you partake will reduce your lifespan by so many years. Similarly, every picture you take of yourself will reduce your lifespan by so many years... (again, any muslim members here want to correct me if I am wrong?)


----------



## jdramirez (Aug 9, 2013)

surapon said:


> 2) In the Night time, Leave the Big cameras and Big Lens with the Vault of the Hotel Manager's Office or With your Wife, who do not want to go with you.---Just Carry and Shoot the Photos with $ 150 US Dollars Cheap Pocket , Point and Shoot Camera .---IF the Bad Guy want them, Just ask very Polite to get the Memory Card Back, And Give some money to the Bad Guy to buy the New Memory card---And that will very safe from getting hurt.



So where are you from? I know Americans are often accused, to include myself, of being overly aggressive and confrontational... but if someone wants my gear, they better be better armed than me. If it is even, I'm looking for a reason to crack some skulls. 

Give him money to buy a memory card... I don't want to be offensive... so I won't say a thing.


----------



## expatinasia (Aug 10, 2013)

There is nothing interesting, new or, if I am very honest, very good about this picture at all.

Anyone that spends a reasonable time in the Middle East, especially some of the more "cosmopolitan" places like Dubai - and I use that term liberally - see such things every day in shopping malls.

Taking a picture of someone's shoes like that is really rather culturally insensitive. It makes me think of those guys that try to get pictures up women's skirts as they go up escalators, or as they are seated. Sure, it is not the same subject matter but, that does not make it right either.


----------



## tgara (Aug 10, 2013)

Watch the 1978 Movie Midnight Express, and reconsider what you did.


----------



## jdramirez (Aug 10, 2013)

tgara said:


> Watch the 1978 Movie Midnight Express, and reconsider what you did.



I just watched the Michael Keaton Batman... I'm done with "old" movies until next week.


----------



## chauncey (Aug 10, 2013)

I cannot understand why any westerner would want to visit any mid-eastern country taken the recent state of relationship 
twixt western folks and those that desire to eradicate us.


----------



## expatinasia (Aug 10, 2013)

chauncey said:


> I cannot understand why any westerner would want to visit any mid-eastern country taken the recent state of relationship
> twixt western folks and those that desire to eradicate us.



Oh dear. I cannot post what I really think about your comment, as I would surely get reprimanded or possibly banned.

There are some very beautiful places in the Middle East, many with thousands of years of history. Travelling broadens the mind, and allows you to see things in a different light. I have travelled a lot through the Middle East and yet there are still some areas, I can't wait to see. On the whole the countries are safe, and the people warm and welcoming. Of course there are exceptions, but that is the same anywhere. 

Maybe if you travelled more, you would understand that.


----------



## JPAZ (Aug 10, 2013)

expatinasia said:


> There are some very beautiful places in the Middle East, many with thousands of years of history. Travelling broadens the mind, and allows you to see things in a different light. I have travelled a lot through the Middle East and yet there are still some areas, I can't wait to see. On the whole the countries are safe, and the people warm and welcoming. Of course there are exceptions, but that is the same



Lest you think my earlier post is not in line with this sentiment,

A big +1 to that.

Only rarely have I encountered anything other than welcoming people.


----------



## mrsfotografie (Aug 10, 2013)

expatinasia said:


> chauncey said:
> 
> 
> > I cannot understand why any westerner would want to visit any mid-eastern country taken the recent state of relationship
> ...



+1 !!


----------



## scottkinfw (Aug 10, 2013)

I certainly understand msforografie's sentiments to be sure. With all the turmoil in the Middle East, it is a scary place. On the other hand, there are many exotic places to visit that present safe photo ops.

Regarding the OP comments and pic I don't really think that it was a reprimand so much as an admonishment. I think it is a great pic, but I wouldn't want a fatwa or other problem on my hands. Plus, I think your ex-pat was trying to give you heads up about the social rules.

I just wouldn't have published it, but then, I hate the sound of my bones breaking.

sek


----------



## eml58 (Aug 10, 2013)

expatinasia said:


> There is nothing interesting, new or, if I am very honest, very good about this picture at all.
> 
> Anyone that spends a reasonable time in the Middle East, especially some of the more "cosmopolitan" places like Dubai - and I use that term liberally - see such things every day in shopping malls.
> 
> Taking a picture of someone's shoes like that is really rather culturally insensitive. It makes me think of those guys that try to get pictures up women's skirts as they go up escalators, or as they are seated. Sure, it is not the same subject matter but, that does not make it right either.



Well said, After spending 26 Years in Indonesia, My first thought on this Image was "I wonder if he's still free", Dubai has a reputation for shopping, and Jailed Expats that have stepped over the "Line", visible or not, it's there, and anyone that Travels to a place like Dubai had better get their homework done before hand, if your a Photographer even more so, Islamic Country, different rules apply, but it's their Country, Obey them and your generally fine, but even then there's no guarantee.

I'm a very keen Photographer, I've done a number of trips there over the past 5 years to prepare myself for Desert Ultra Marathons, never take the Camera, I was in Dubai recently for 2 days on the way through to Tanzania 2 months ago, my Cameras stayed in the Bag in the Hotel Room, this is not a place to attempt "I'm a culturally sensitive Guy" as a defence, and I agree with most here on this subject, poor use of Common Sense, Poor Listening Skills, Poor Image.

To add though, There are some absolutely Wonderful Places to visit in the Middle East, People to see, but the area requires you you to polish your skills in sensitivity, and that sensitivity should be local centric, not what you consider as "sensitive" in your own Country, especially if your from a Western Country where we generally have a wider view of what can & cant be done without causing offence.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 10, 2013)

J.R. said:


> paul13walnut5 said:
> 
> 
> > To be honest with the OP, I wouldn't even try this in a Glasgow shopping mall.
> ...



Most malls, even in the US, tend to not be big fans of any photography taking place on their grounds. Many have rules against it, although not super duper enforced.


----------



## Larry (Aug 10, 2013)

expatinasia said:


> chauncey said:
> 
> 
> > I cannot understand why any westerner would want to visit any mid-eastern country taken the recent state of relationship
> ...



I am sure I would stand awestruck before the Taj Mahal, amazed at the accomplishment of its designers/builders.

This would in no way "broaden my mind" to the point where i could respect a culture that turns a blind eye to "kitchen fire" deaths, etc., ...not to mention the "untouchables" situation.

I hope and believe that I could never be persuaded to do-as-the-locals-do.

The beautiful aspects of a nation do not justify horrifying injustice, particularly given the thousands of years we all have had to make a bit of progress in our treatment of one another.

[ The reasonable man adjusts himself to the world, ...the unreasonable man attempts to adjust the world to himself.
Thus we are indebted, for all progress, to unreasonable men! ]


----------



## rpt (Aug 10, 2013)

When I was in Saudi Arabia, 81-84, one did see such sights. Not often, but you did see them. And if you did spy such a sight you looked away! And remember that was before Saudi got "liberalised" due to the first Gulf war!

In '81, my (then) brand new AE-1 nearly got taken away because we were fishing on a construction site in Al Jubail. It was only because of a very kind Scottish police chief and his equally kind Saudi assistant that I only lost the film roll! Apparently we were on one of the summer palaces of a very wealthy individual. We were told it was the King's palace! We were lucky not to get thrown in the slammer! The Scott said something that has stayed with me since. He said "This is Saudi Arabia. Don't take your camera outside your camp! In fact just go to work do your work and come home and watch tv. Don't do silly things like this. If you want to take pictures, take them inside your camp or better yet, in your room!". On my next vacation, I dropped my camera off in India. The only time I broke his rule was when I took pictures of camels crossing the road between Al Jubail and Dahran on way to the airport for my vacation!


----------



## RAKAMRAK (Aug 10, 2013)

Good practical and philosophical discussion here. The multitude of opinions expressed here has also solved one of my perennial questions. Now I know that when I am photographing on the beaches I can photograph beautiful women (without their faces of course, so no identity recognition possible) in bikini (walking/sunbathing/lounging) without any ado with my telephoto lens. Whether I can/should and whether I cannot/shouldn't photograph those occasions always bugged me - but now I know. Great.


----------



## Hesbehindyou (Aug 10, 2013)

*Re: Your friend's advice was excellent*



> I'm not muslim, but I have muslim friends and I vaguely remember one of them saying that they don't take pictures. In general, go to their homes, you won't see any family pictures, nothing. It has something to do with what the Qu'ran says... I think one of them told me that it reduces their lifespan by so many years.



Heh, he's joking about the lifespan thing but it's true that Muslims are not permitted pictures (especially drawings) of people or animals. It's actually considered quite a serious transgression. Many Muslims do take photographs but these must not contain people or animals. Plants and inanimate objects are fine, so Muslim photographers are essentially all landscapers.

Some claim that the camera is recording light and the photographer hasn't created anything. Most religious scholars disagree with that interpretation.

*Most (all?) of my Muslim acquaintances have lots of pictures of themselves.* I can only assume that they're mere 'cultural' Muslims, even if they attend mosque, and deep down know it's all make-believe.


----------



## mrsfotografie (Aug 10, 2013)

Larry said:


> I am sure I would stand awestruck before the Taj Mahal, amazed at the accomplishment of its designers/builders.
> 
> This would in no way "broaden my mind" to the point where i could respect a culture that turns a blind eye to "kitchen fire" deaths, etc., ...not to mention the "untouchables" situation.
> 
> ...



It is a most awe inspiring building; stunning in its modernity despite being buit in 1648 and as such surpasses (modern) history.


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Aug 10, 2013)

*Re: Your friend's advice was excellent*



Hesbehindyou said:


> > I'm not muslim, but I have muslim friends and I vaguely remember one of them saying that they don't take pictures. In general, go to their homes, you won't see any family pictures, nothing. It has something to do with what the Qu'ran says... I think one of them told me that it reduces their lifespan by so many years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you should be very careful of labeling anyone's belief system as "make believe", Christian, Buddist, Catholic, Zao, Islam....with that kind of attitude, one could easily point a finger at you as a bigot.


----------



## mrsfotografie (Aug 10, 2013)

eml58 said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > There is nothing interesting, new or, if I am very honest, very good about this picture at all.
> ...



What a shame... next time be sure to visit old Dubai and Dubai Creek while you're there AND BRING YOUR CAMERA! No problem taking photo's of the surroundings at all 







More: http://www.mrsfotografie.nl/reizen/oman-uae-2010/oman-uae-29-dec


----------



## Larry (Aug 10, 2013)

*Re: Your friend's advice was excellent*



GMCPhotographics said:


> I think you should be very careful of labeling anyone's belief system as "make believe", Christian, Buddist, Catholic, Zao, Islam....with that kind of attitude, one could easily point a finger at you as a bigot.



Could someone point a finger at you as a bigot for describing anyone whose belief system is that some other belief systems are make-believe, as a bigot?

Maybe we need a definition of bigotry.

(Are we having fun yet?)


----------



## Hesbehindyou (Aug 10, 2013)

*Re: Your friend's advice was excellent*



GMCPhotographics said:


> Hesbehindyou said:
> 
> 
> > > I'm not muslim, but I have muslim friends and I vaguely remember one of them saying that they don't take pictures. In general, go to their homes, you won't see any family pictures, nothing. It has something to do with what the Qu'ran says... I think one of them told me that it reduces their lifespan by so many years.
> ...



"...believe it's all make believe" would have been more polite to any Muslims reading but I think it's safe to say they will have all handled my lack of agnosticism about their religion pretty well - _they think it about all the others after all (as do Christians, including Catholics, Buddhists and a host of others)._


----------



## jdramirez (Aug 10, 2013)

*Re: Your friend's advice was excellent*



Larry said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
> 
> 
> > I think you should be very careful of labeling anyone's belief system as "make believe", Christian, Buddist, Catholic, Zao, Islam....with that kind of attitude, one could easily point a finger at you as a bigot.
> ...



We all have our own beliefs... some are non-existent... but this is definitely not the forum to go into that. 

That's all I'll say...


----------



## DARSON (Aug 10, 2013)

I decided to put few pennies to this discussion as a resident of UAE since few years. Although i do not live in DUBAI but some 130km south in Al Ain at the border with Oman.
This culture is very interesting, different and full of contradictions in compare to western culture.
My post could be very long on explaining even part of it. 
First of all I do not know if your host told about rules regarding taking photographs of local women and not only local ( as other nationalities including European and Asian wears Abaya)
I understand that when someone is traveling somewhere he/she wants to have some fantastic memories ( read pics) from vacation and here you are free to take many of them. There is few things to see in UAE. As for photographing people especially women you should be cautious , even when you take photos of the shoes  (as they might shout on you, spit on you curse you, call police etc.) if you take pics against their will. From my experience this actions can come from older women as young ones they run around very often with 2-3 smartphones taking pics of each other. 
Next time when you visit Middle East just ask some expat about the rules when it comes to taking pics
As for Oman people there are very open to tourist and even whole families posing to photographs. It happened to me 
So if you cannot stand UAE's mentality, Oman is the best choice for future photographic travel 

On other hand you have bunch of photographic contest around the country with great prizes that aim to preserve their culture and no one is banning anyone just because he took photo of a local woman unless she did not agree to be on a photograph.
Below is link to big photography contest in UAE
http://www.ephotoc.net/


----------



## Bruce Photography (Aug 10, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> mrsfotografie said:
> 
> 
> > Taking photos of women in Oman and UAE is a sensitive issue (so I didn't), but the men are a proud people and although protective of their women, will gladly pose for you! Despite being generally apprehensive about people photography myself I took some really great shots. Truly a fantastic destination:
> ...



You get some very nice posed pictures -- and they are -- and very well done, but posed. I am certain that is what they want you to see. Reminds me of the cold war. For myself I am more interested in candid shots where I can see people going about their normal activities of being human beings -- both good and bad. For myself I can't see taking the risk of shooting in a culture that puts the photographer personally at risk. I'll limit myself to countries where I can photograph pretty much anything that is in the public view without the fear of being arrested or worse. I do not need to support or spend money in such countries until they become safe to do so. Other photographers may be willing to risk their live to "get the shot" but at my point in life I am no longer willing to do so. I applaud other photographers that take and publish such photos so that all societies can talk openly about our differences but many societies are not yet ready to do so and I accept that as a fact of current life. Perhaps some day but probably not in my lifetime.


----------



## petach (Sep 14, 2013)

I am very careful about photographing Muslim women....even in the UK. Not on religious grounds or sensitivity necessarily, but because I don't really want to get into a row in the street. I like to shoot and move on. Whitechapel and its close environs have a large Bangladeshi and other Asian population...predominantly Muslim. The men folk are VERY funny about their ladies being photographed or otherwise interfered with by anyone. Is it worth it? I ain't Bruce Gilden!


----------

