# what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii



## psycho5 (Oct 26, 2011)

first and foremost I have been a follower of CR for ~2 years now and never felt the need to chime in, until now...

It is hard to ignore the next 5D may have a 36mp sensor or somewhere in thereabouts, but could Canon simply use the same FF sensor as in the 1Dx? The two models would still be different just like the 7D is different than the T2i and the 60D.

or maybe perhaps Canon will repackage the 1Dx sensor in a body like the 60D, not have a frame rate more than 5 per second, and the 7D's AF system. A body like this for $2k would be great.


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## outsider (Oct 26, 2011)

From what I've read, the speculation is that the next 5D will be a high megapixel camera (more then the mark II) and another camera body will emerge using the 1Dx sensors, but with lower specs on the features, for a lower end market. 
The 7D would remain the king of ASP-C sensor with the xxD being the prosumer and the xxxD being the entry level.

It's really anybody's guess.


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## psycho5 (Oct 26, 2011)

I really hope so... I've had the 60D since its release and always find myself reducing for web and the 18mp sensor is great for prints, however the 1Dx sensor in a 60D like body would best match my L glass.

I used my buddies 5D2 to see how my lenses look with FF and both the 16-35 and 24-70 made sense (i was blown away by the perspective), but I missed the beautiful reach of the 70-200ii on the 60D. I will certainly keep the 60D for this purpose. As a side note, its unfortunate a lot of people bash the 60D as it is a great camera! 

This was a test shot the day my 135L came in and made me a beliver of the 60D sensor:




Family by a63jmt300, on Flickr

So yeah, a xxd type FF along with the pixma pro-1 and the rumored 35L ii are on my wish list


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## moreorless (Oct 26, 2011)

psycho5 said:


> or maybe perhaps Canon will repackage the 1Dx sensor *in a body like the 60D*, not have a frame rate more than 5 per second, and the 7D's AF system. A body like this for $2k would be great.



I could certainly see Canon doing that if they used the 1DX sensor in an entry level body, give it decent build but low enough that pro's won't trust it.

Theres been alot of talk that we could see both that kind of FF body and a higher end high megapixel one.


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## Picsfor (Oct 26, 2011)

OK, my two penneth worth on this.

The 5D2 has no bearing on the 1DX market i can assure you. Having played with it, the price is such that no one is going to buy this over a 5D2. I love the high ISO, it really is wicked. I love the AF system - really, it is the answer to my prayers for sure. I love the ergonomics of the body and the new placement of buttons and extra joystick

but - and it's a BIG but

The 1DX is over twice the price of a 5D2, and we know what happened to the last camera Canon made with a 21mp FF sensor that was over twice the price of a 5D2 - and this one is 3mp less!

However, press, wedding, wildlife, sports, action photographers whose livings depend on getting "that" picture will love it. Really. I would love it, it really felt comfortable in my hands - but not at that price.

A 5D3 with specs as i've mentioned else where on this site would appeal to the old 1Ds brigade who do not want high frame rate, 61 focus points or 204k ISO (though i'm sure an increase by a stop or 2 would be welcome). Just update that awful focus system, even to 9 full cross hairs, and up the sensor MP and Canon would be onto another winner. Oh, and add in that Gigabit network socket - no faster way of transferring such large file sizes or working tethered so easily. Hooked to an iPad? Hell it could be hooked to a 52" LCD screen which would really impress the clients in the studio!

To summarise - the 5D series will be the new 1Ds series. The 1Ds is dead. Those previous owners have spoken with their wallets, and made Canon an absolute fortune - why would Canon abandon that market?


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## redeyedfly (Oct 26, 2011)

i hope the new 1dx is telling us alot about the up coming 5dii, especially given the age we are in and the technological abilities of today. i know the 1dx is the cream of the crop but even half of these features on the new 5diii would be a major upgrade. 

i hope the ff sensor stays the same, no need for a larger mp sensor. whats the point? i personally would like to see a higher frame rate, such as atleast 6 - 7 fps (half of the 1dx would suffice here). The dig. 5 processor is capable why not. high iso would be a major plus also, but i would like to see some more comparable features to the nikon d700 or the upcoming d800 such as more bracketing options, and lots of focus points. 

who knows whats going to happen, but i can't wait. if its not up to my spec, i have no problems going over to the nikon d800. id pay around $3500 for the right camera. oh btw, i don't care one bit about upgraded video features.


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## Flake (Oct 26, 2011)

From the earlier thread about new technology which might filter down to lesser cameras, the 1Dx has surprisingly few new features - plenty of incremental improvements, but nothing much new to pass on.

What can we expect in a 5D MkIII ? Probably nothing that we haven't already seen, the only question is which combination will Canon choose to include. A new autofocus 7D 19 point or the 45point of the 1D? Which metering? 

Maybe there'll be wireless flash control, but I'd have expected that in the flagship 1Dx, wireless file transfer & gps look set to remain ridiculously expensive options.

Perhaps we have reached the point where the technology has matured to the point where new features are becomming fewer and all we can really expect are incremental improvements, which often cost more & more money for smaller improvements over the previous models.


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## MazV-L (Oct 27, 2011)

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Multiple-Exposure Feature something new for a Canon Dslr!? I'd love to see this feature included in the 5D iii.


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## unfocused (Oct 27, 2011)

MazV-L said:


> Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Multiple-Exposure Feature something new for a Canon Dslr!? I'd love to see this feature included in the 5D iii.



Just curious. What does in-camera multiple-exposure offer that couldn't be done with layers in Photoshop? When Canon announced this, I admit I was scratching my head thinking this sounded more like a gimmick than a 1D series feature. I must be missing something here.


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## MazV-L (Oct 27, 2011)

unfocused said:


> MazV-L said:
> 
> 
> > Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Multiple-Exposure Feature something new for a Canon Dslr!? I'd love to see this feature included in the 5D iii.
> ...


I'm not anti-tweaking photos, but I think it's much more fun to think creatively about setting up shots and trying to get the image I have in my head right in-camera first. I have been able to set-up multiple-exposures in-camera with my classic 5D but am very limited by light conditions and distance I can move from the camera during the exposure etc. Plus not all find it easy to use photo-editing software!


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## bycostello (Oct 27, 2011)

I think the biggest clue is the announcement is scheduled in Hollywood... i.e. very video orientated...


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## moreorless (Oct 28, 2011)

bycostello said:


> I think the biggest clue is the announcement is scheduled in Hollywood... i.e. very video orientated...



I wouldnt say a 5D annouced in hollywood would necessarily be pushed towards video at the expense of other areas. Obviously the video aspect would be hyped up but really hollywood isnt any worse than anywhere else to hype a stills camera aswell.

One feature I'd hope moves down the line quickly is the 1DX's larger back screen.


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## Edwin Herdman (Oct 28, 2011)

Flake said:


> A new autofocus 7D 19 point or the 45point of the 1D? Which metering?


That'd depend in part on how much space the AF sensor takes up, or how it fits in the current housing, wouldn't you think? I'd expect a newly designed AF system before the 45 point system got reused, but that wouldn't be too bad either (so long as they took software cues from the Mark IV, and not the Mark III lines, that is...)


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## traveller (Oct 29, 2011)

The full frame camera market is in an interesting state of flux at the moment. As I see it, Canon have five options for the 5D MkII replacement: 

1) Keep the major specifications the same as the 5D MkII and use the 18MP unit from the 1D X. 
Iâ€™m not sure that you could sell such a camera on the basis of better high ISO performance alone; thus Canon would have to reduce the price. This could work if: 
a)	they can realise production synergies with the 1D X and other models to reduce the cost of making the camera (thus maintaining their profit margin)
Or 
b)	they can realise a price point where they can sell enough extra units to compensate for the lower profit margin. 

2) Improve the major specifications over the 5D MkII and use the 18MP unit from the 1D X. Differentiate from the 1D X based upon frame rate/buffer size, body size and viewfinder (+ probably a few other â€˜proâ€™ orientated features such as Ethernet). 
i.e. the D700 strategy. There are two dangers here: 
i) Cannibalising 1D X sales in the same way that the D700 did to sales of the D3. 
ii) Alienating the section of the market of 5D MkII buyers who value resolution over build quality, AF and shooting speed. 

3) Take the 5D MkII and put a newly developed (for example) 36MP sensor in it. 
Problem: Nikon takes a D700 and puts a 36MP sensor in it; Sony builds a 36MP A9X based on their A77â€™s features: the 5D MkIII looks like the poor relation. 

4) Create a (for example) 36MP small body camera with improved AF, build quality and reasonable (4-6fps) shooting speed but keep the price near that of the 5D MkII. 
Problems: 
a)	Youâ€™ve basically just built a 1D Xs and are only charging 5d MkII money for it!
b)	â€œIâ€™ve just bought a 1D X and now I feel ripped offâ€ 


5) Create a 36-40MP body and improve some of the specifications over the 5D MkII, compromising others. 
Problems: 
a)	It may be OK against the Sony, but might still look weak against the Nikon (so the price must be lower than the latter?). 
b)	People would always be speculating that the 1D Xs is on the way. 

If this looks like an awkward situation for Canon, bear in mind that Nikon are in the same boat. In some ways it may be worse for them, as there would be uproar if they dropped any of the major specifications of the D700 for the D800. 

Sonyâ€™s strategy will only work if they can persuade full frame users of the benefits of the SLT concept and thereâ€™s not much evidence so far that theyâ€™ve persuaded the APS-C market yet. Otherwise, they risk simply being the third choice brand all over again.


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## UncleFester (Oct 29, 2011)

The 5DII replacement will need at _least_ it's 21mp sensor or it's dead in the water, imo.


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## moreorless (Oct 29, 2011)

traveller said:


> The full frame camera market is in an interesting state of flux at the moment. As I see it, Canon have five options for the 5D MkII replacement:
> 
> 1) Keep the major specifications the same as the 5D MkII and use the 18MP unit from the 1D X.
> Iâ€™m not sure that you could sell such a camera on the basis of better high ISO performance alone; thus Canon would have to reduce the price. This could work if:
> ...



The real problem I see Canon having is that compaired to the 5D mk2 the market seems to have extended both upwards and downwards, with no 1Ds you have high end users after more megapixels and with the lower prices of the mk2 being so popular you now have a much larger cheaper market.

Balancing both of those with a single body seems like its going to be very difficult which makes me think there might be something to the rumours of a spilt in the 5D line. If they can produce a cost effective $2000ish FF body then the specs of the D800 become much less relivant at double the price. Then a high megapixel body could be targeted much more closely at its users likely needs, MP, Viewfinder and Buiid over FPS, high ISO and AF.


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## legarth (Oct 29, 2011)

As someone who is a "prosumer" willing to spend $3000 on body, I don't see myself being happy with at 5diii with less than 21mp. I have been very happy with my 5dii, I don't need more than around 5fps. A better AF system would be great but not a must for me. Good iso performance is important. I shoot photos mainly but have done a good deal of video as well. So I really feel the 5dii was a almost perfect match for me.

I really hope they don't alter the balance of what is in the current generation. My 5dii is almost 3 years old now and I have saved for a replacement... so I just hope for a 5dmk ii with a bit higher res, bettter iso, updated AF and raw video


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## psycho5 (Oct 30, 2011)

For me, the sensor is more important than product name. If the sensor from the 1Dx is repackaged into another body at less than half the cost of the 1dx itself ($1,999), im getting it.... you all have to admit, the new 18mp FF sensor is mighty sexy, especially when you consider file size.

speaking of file size, I wonder how many people who "need" 36mp are ready to shell out even more cash to upgrade computers and storage solutions just to process the large files without any slowdowns. Again (so I dont get lit up about this), an 18mp FF will at least provide better noise performance than a 36mp FF and the files will be half as much.

So Canon please release:

18mp FF from 1Dx
same iso
7D's AF
100% VF
6 frames per sec
"cheap" body like the 60D, but w/ 7d's weather sealing
swively screen


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## scottsdaleriots (Oct 30, 2011)

i hope the 5dIII has the same ISO as the 1Dx or something similar to it. Ddual digi V would be a no brainer.


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## Fleetie (Oct 30, 2011)

psycho5 said:


> For me, the sensor is more important than product name. If the sensor from the 1Dx is repackaged into another body at less than half the cost of the 1dx itself ($1,999), im getting it.... you all have to admit, the new 18mp FF sensor is mighty sexy, especially when you consider file size.
> 
> speaking of file size, I wonder how many people who "need" 36mp are ready to shell out even more cash to upgrade computers and storage solutions just to process the large files without any slowdowns. Again (so I dont get lit up about this), an 18mp FF will at least provide better noise performance than a 36mp FF and the files will be half as much.
> 
> ...



Yes I would LOVE the 1Dx sensor in a 5D/7D style smaller body! I'd be all over it! I am already having to consider the slightly unpalatable idea of having to get a 1Dx despite hating the huge body size, just to get that low-light performance. But really I want it in a body that a real-life human can carry around all day without feeling and looking stupid. The other thing is that I want a 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS as a walk-around lens, which would work for me given my shooting preferences, but those two together could be a painful walk-around combo. And they'd cost around Â£7.1k. OOF!


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## Picsfor (Oct 30, 2011)

Fleetie said:


> I am already having to consider the slightly unpalatable idea of having to get a 1Dx despite hating the huge body size, just to get that low-light performance. But really I want it in a body that a real-life human can carry around all day without feeling and looking stupid. The other thing is that I want a 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS as a walk-around lens, which would work for me given my shooting preferences, but those two together could be a painful walk-around combo. And they'd cost around Â£7.1k. OOF!



OK, why not get the 70-200 f4 IS - the low light capabilities of the 1DX is sooo good that the f4 will be more than adequate, and half the weight of the f2.8 MkII version.

Done a wedding reception last night with my 5D2 and was suddenly aware of how much easier that 51k ISO would have made my job. Maybe not as much as it would cost you, but i am not relishing the idea of having to splash out Â£4k+ for a 1DX - but you really are getting the extra money's worth.


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## AJ (Oct 30, 2011)

redeyedfly said:


> i hope the new 1dx is telling us alot about the up coming 5dii ... i hope the ff sensor stays the same, no need for a larger mp sensor. whats the point?



The point is: studio photogs and landscape photogs want more megapixels.

My guess is 5D3 early next year. 36 mpix, iso characteristics similar to 5D2 on a pixel-by-pixel basis.


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## Fleetie (Oct 30, 2011)

Picsfor said:


> Fleetie said:
> 
> 
> > I am already having to consider the slightly unpalatable idea of having to get a 1Dx despite hating the huge body size, just to get that low-light performance. But really I want it in a body that a real-life human can carry around all day without feeling and looking stupid. The other thing is that I want a 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS as a walk-around lens, which would work for me given my shooting preferences, but those two together could be a painful walk-around combo. And they'd cost around Â£7.1k. OOF!
> ...


Because I already have it (70-200 f/4 L IS)! And I love it! It is a fantastic lens! But apparently the f/2.8 is even better, and I do love OOF blur / bokeh. And the f/2.8 would/will give me even more of that creamy (OOF) yet sharp (in focus) quality. I intend to get the f/2.8, but it is 2nd in the queue, behind the 85 f/1.2 L II.


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## Picsfor (Oct 30, 2011)

yeah, the 85 f1.2 really does give the narrowest DoF.

i had a play with one for an hour one sunny afternoon - i only shot at f1.2 all the time.
But not top of my list at the moment...


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## VirtualRain (Oct 30, 2011)

I think there are four types of pro camera requiremets out there...

*News/Sports* => High speed, Med. print size => *1DX* => FF, 12fps, Dense 61 point AF, 52K ISO, 18MP
*Studio/Landscape* => High quality, large print size => *5DII/III* => FF, 5fps, Wide 9-19point AF, 25K ISO, 30+MP
*Videographer* => Can use the same camera as studio/landscape with video
*Wildlife* => High speed, Crop => *7D* => APS-C, 8-10fps, Dense 19 point AF, 12K ISO, 18MP

Unfortunately, none of these really address my needs which are similar to the studio landscape photographer, but without the need to print at large sizes. I would prefer a low MPix FF sensor (like the 1Dx), a new AF that has points following the rule of thirds, in a body like the 7D. But that doesn't really align with any major pro market requirements so it's not likely to happen.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 31, 2011)

Fleetie said:


> But apparently the f/2.8 is even better, and I do love OOF blur / bokeh. And the f/2.8 would/will give me even more of that creamy (OOF) yet sharp (in focus) quality. I intend to get the f/2.8, but it is 2nd in the queue, behind the 85 f/1.2 L II.



The 70-200/2.8 II is excellent on FF, and does well as a walkaround lens. I don't mind the weight, even after carrying it all day, but I wouldn't hang it from my neck. I use a BlackRapid strap which puts the weight on my shoulder and is much more comfortable, plus leaves my hands free.



VirtualRain said:


> a new AF that has points following the rule of thirds



Difficult for technical reasons. The 1D Mark IV has points that sit at the intersections. The 1D X, 1DsIII, and 7D all come pretty close. The 5DII is no where near.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 31, 2011)

Fleetie said:


> I am already having to consider the slightly unpalatable idea of having to get a 1Dx despite hating the huge body size, just to get that low-light performance.



I think the jury is still out on that low-light performance, and will remain out until the RAW files can be examined. 

Regarding the 2-stop improvement in ISO noise compared to the 1D IV, Chuck Westfall stated, "_To get the full two stops of improved performance youâ€™ll need to shoot in the JPEG format. Thatâ€™s not to say that high ISO performance isnâ€™t significantly better when shooting in RAW, because it absolutely is._"

Ok, so two stops compared to the 1D IV. But that's for JPGs only. With current images, DxO promises (and delivers!) a 2-stop improvement in ISO noise compared to in-camera JPGs. So, the 1D X has a better in-camera jpg engine with better NR thanks to Digic5+. Whoop-de-do. I don't really care about improvements in JPG images because I'll be shooting in RAW. 

But wait, Chuck said 'it absolutely is' significantly better in RAW. This speaks to the cleverness of the Canon marketing team in using the 1D IV as a baseline for the comparison. Of course, going from an APS-H sensor to a FF sensor means less ISO noise, because of the larger total area. As beaten to death, larger pixels than the 1DsIII/5DII means nothing, although the gapless microlenses will help. The 5DII beats the 1D IV on ISO noise, by about a 1/2-stop (which is slightly less than the improvement predicted by sensor size alone, and speaks to the improved on-sensor NR of the 1D IV). So, my guess is the when comparing the 1D X to the 1D IV RAW files, where it really matters, we'll see somewhere a bit less than 1 stop of ISO noise improvement. 

Personally, I'm uninterested in the comparison to the 1D IV. What interests me is the comparison of the noise from the 1D X to the 5DII RAW files. Sadly, my guess is that we see less than 1/2-stop improvement there, probably closer to 1/3-stop. I think the math works out that way - 2-stops compared to 1D IV in JPG, which is 1 stop in RAW and 1 stop in the conversion. Of the RAW, 2/3-stop comes from the larger sensor, leaving 1/3-stop for tech improvement (gapless microlenses, on-sensor NR). 

So, ISO 4000 on the 1D X will look ISO 3200 on the 5DII. Is that 'significant'? Sure. But it's nothing to write home about...and Martin, maybe not enough to justify the extra weight (although the low-light AF improvement is certainly also important).


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## AprilForever (Oct 31, 2011)

I'm somewhat interested in FF, for a landscape camera, but not really hugely... If I did get a 5dIII, I would be getting it for higher resolution and improved noise over my 7d. And the higher resolution part would be something I wouldn't budge on. So, a FF18mp does not interest me!

I think that the 1DX style will probable seep more into the 7D than the 5D... Probably, the 5diii will be sort-of the what the 1DIVs would have been, except without the grip. Likely, I'm guessing it will sell for a hair over 3,000...


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## K-amps (Oct 31, 2011)

redeyedfly said:


> i hope the new 1dx is telling us alot about the up coming 5dii, especially given the age we are in and the technological abilities of today. i know the 1dx is the cream of the crop but even half of these features on the new 5diii would be a major upgrade.
> 
> i hope the ff sensor stays the same, no need for a larger mp sensor. whats the point? i personally would like to see a higher frame rate, such as atleast 6 - 7 fps (half of the 1dx would suffice here). The dig. 5 processor is capable why not. high iso would be a major plus also, but i would like to see some more comparable features to the nikon d700 or the upcoming d800 such as more bracketing options, and lots of focus points.
> 
> who knows whats going to happen, but i can't wait. if its not up to my spec, i have no problems going over to the nikon d800. id pay around $3500 for the right camera. oh btw, i don't care one bit about upgraded video features.



+1


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## K-amps (Oct 31, 2011)

MazV-L said:


> Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Multiple-Exposure Feature something new for a Canon Dslr!? I'd love to see this feature included in the 5D iii.



+1: and maybe not 9AEB, but at least 5?


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## K-amps (Oct 31, 2011)

MazV-L said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > MazV-L said:
> ...



Try post processing 1k raw images like I do sometimes ... and see the time you save with this gimmick. Trust me it is not fun sitting on the comp for a week merging all the AEB frames.... It may not be much for you, but for some it is very welcome. 

I used to have a 1D2, and loved to take HDR shots with the 7AEB and 8fps. Now I have a 5D, I have almost given up on HDR since it is so much more inconvenient now.... I would like to get back into it once they have a decent set of functions on the 5D3.


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## K-amps (Nov 1, 2011)

dilbert said:


> K-amps said:
> 
> 
> > Try post processing 1k raw images like I do sometimes ... and see the time you save with this gimmick. Trust me it is not fun sitting on the comp for a week merging all the AEB frames.... It may not be much for you, but for some it is very welcome.
> ...



One day I might be more comfortable with Manual bracketing, I don't like fidgeting with the camera once it has captured a frame and move it around even the slightest. ( it is on a decent tripod, yes)

As for your darks being too dark, how may AEB frames do you work with and do you use RAW or the jpegs?


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