# EOS 90D - Hands on review



## AlanF (Sep 13, 2019)

The 90D arrived a little late this afternoon so had time for just a few measurements. It is not very substantial and won't be useful for driving in tent pegs, but it is light. It does provide a good grip for holding telephoto lenses. The download cable is a micro USB and Canon is so mean that it doesn't include one in the box. FoCal isn't ready for for AFMA when tethered to the computer but it does do AFMA on downloaded jpegs. So, I calibrated it it with a 100-400mm II and a 400mm DO II and again with 1.4xTCs. The preliminary data on charts are good. It is outresolving the same lenses on a 5DSR and gives very nice jpegs OOC. More tomorrow.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 14, 2019)

It's a nuisance that DxO PL wont be ready for the 90D until November so I had to use Adobe PS with which I am not expert. So, I shot RAW + jpegs and initially compared camera-produced jpegs, which proved to be a unfortunate. The 100-400mm II appeared to gain no resolution when adding a 1.4xTC. I then discovered the lens correction in the camera was the problem and lowered resolution. Turning off the lens correction greatly improved the images. The clue was that the Sigma 150-600mm C that doesn't have lens correction gave much better images at 600mm than the 100-400mm II + 1.4xTC. The gap between the two was lowered on removing the lens correction but the 90D paired very well with the Sigma. The take home message is that the 90D gives acceptable images at 560mm f/8 and outresolves the 5DSR.

I tried tracking birds in flight. Spot AF worked very well but the 9 centre points focussed much more slowly.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 15, 2019)

Any opinion the high ISO performance compared to a 7d2?


----------



## AlanF (Sep 16, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> Any opinion the high ISO performance compared to a 7d2?


I no longer have a 7DII and currently am not using my favourite software for processing. But, even PS with a moderate noise suppression setting is coping fine. I very much doubt if noise will be problematic.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 16, 2019)

People post close ups of birds to show how sharp a lens or a sensor is. Frankly, most of us can get stunning shots with any gear if we can get close enough, which is all part of field skills. What a good sensor can do is to extend what you can can do to more difficult situations. Yesterday, I hardly got close to anything but used it as an opportunity to test the 90D with a 100-400mm II and a Sigma 150-600mm C. The Sigma at 600mm at f/6.3 was not fazed by the sensor and was able to pull out distant detail. The two shots are not intended to be "keepers" but to show this. There was a grey heron the other side of a lake, a couple of hundred meters away, in the red circle in the image from my iPhone. The 90D at 600mm with an inexpensive lens got an image of it. (The 100-400mm II is so much easier to hand hold for me now.)


----------



## AlanF (Sep 16, 2019)

I also compared the 90D with a 55-250mm STM with a Sony RX10IV to see how it compared as a lightweight travel kit. It's not bad but the Sony significantly outresolves it. I'll borrow a Tamron 18-400mm today and maybe if there is one in stock a Canon 70-300mm to see how they compare.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 16, 2019)

AlanF said:


> People post close ups of birds to show how sharp a lens or a sensor is. Frankly, most of us can get stunning shots with any gear if we can get close enough, which is all part of field skills. What a good sensor can do is to extend what you can can do to more difficult situations. Yesterday, I hardly got close to anything but used it as an opportunity to test the 90D with a 100-400mm II and a Sigma 150-600mm C. The Sigma at 600mm at f/6.3 was not fazed by the sensor and was able to pull out distant detail. The two shots are not intended to be "keepers" but to show this. There was a grey heron the other side of a lake, a couple of hundred meters away, in the red circle in the image from my iPhone. The 90D at 600mm with an inexpensive lens got an image of it. (The 100-400mm II is so much easier to hand hold for me now.)
> 
> View attachment 186626
> View attachment 186627


That is quite phenomenal at that range.


----------



## Joules (Sep 16, 2019)

AlanF said:


> The 90D at 600mm with an inexpensive lens got an image of it.


Thanks for sharing your results, highly appreciated!

Do you remember which AF Method you used and maybe also if the lens Is was turned off?


----------



## AlanF (Sep 16, 2019)

Joules said:


> Thanks for sharing your results, highly appreciated!
> 
> Do you remember which AF Method you used and maybe also if the lens Is was turned off?


Centre Spot focus, AI Servo, hand held with arms resting so IS on.


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 16, 2019)

I find this particularly interesting, as I am thinking of an M6 as a more portable toy. The performance of the 90D and lens in your heron shot is astoundingly good. Previously, one needed $20,000 of camera and lens to pull off that shot!


----------



## AlanF (Sep 16, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> I find this particularly interesting, as I am thinking of an M6 as a more portable toy. The performance of the 90D and lens in your heron shot is astoundingly good. Previously, one needed $20,000 of camera and lens to pull off that shot!


The Sigma pairs with it well. One good thing about the 90D vs M6 II is that it has a nice deep grip for handling the long lenses.


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Sep 16, 2019)

You already have 90D image samples in the Imaging Resource.




__





Imaging Resource "Comparometer" ™ Digital Camera Image Comparison Page






www.imaging-resource.com


----------



## AlanF (Sep 17, 2019)

Battery life is phenomenal. I got 1200 shots from a very old battery I get only a few hundred on with a 5DIV. And I always get less shots than most others.


----------



## SecureGSM (Sep 17, 2019)

I get around of 1800 shots out my 5D IVs on average. Thats a few hundreds over the thousand. Wifi is switched off


----------



## AlanF (Sep 17, 2019)

I hgave now done a series of comparisons using line separations on charts over various distances of my telephoto lenses on the 5DSR vs 90D (100-400mm II, 400mm DO II, ± 1.4xTC, Sigma 150-600mm C, 400/600mm. In theory, the 90D should have 29% more resolution if the only factor was pixel size. But, there is the matter of an AA-filter and also limiting effects of diffraction. In practice, I find that the 29% advantage is reduced by a factor of 2 and the effective extra resolution is about 15%.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 17, 2019)

I checked out the resolution of the 90D vs 5DIV (which has the same sensor as the EOS R). It should be 1.7x higher and it is about 1.5-1.6x. The bare 400mm DO II on the 90D has better contrast and better resolution than the lens + 1.4xTC on the 5DIV. The 400mm + 1.4xTC on the 90D is about 25-30% sharper than the lens + 2xTC on the 5DIV.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 17, 2019)

Certainly sounding like a substantial jump in IQ. I am almost disappointed I won't be getting it


----------



## dslrdummy (Sep 19, 2019)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> You already have 90D image samples in the Imaging Resource.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Their comparison with the 7Dii says the 90D has higher noise at all higher ISO level's which is disappointing.


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 19, 2019)

dslrdummy said:


> Their comparison with the 7Dii says the 90D has higher noise at all higher ISO level's which is disappointing.


Are you sure? At 1:1 maybe but that isn't a fair comparison.

On a same sized comparison the 90D is showing a lot more detail than the 7D MkII in the 12,800 exposures even using the jpegs.


----------



## dslrdummy (Sep 19, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Are you sure? At 1:1 maybe but that isn't a fair comparison.


Pretty sure. Why do you say it isn't fair? By 1:1 do you mean by comparing each at 100%?


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 19, 2019)

dslrdummy said:


> Pretty sure. Why do you say it isn't fair? By 1:1 do you mean by comparing each at 100%?


Yes if you go 100% on both then the 90D image is enlarged much more, which is an irrelevant 'comparison', if you inspect them both at the same size the 90D is holding a good bit more detail.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 19, 2019)

dslrdummy said:


> Pretty sure. Why do you say it isn't fair? By 1:1 do you mean by comparing each at 100%?


At high iso, the signal/noise in modern efficient sensors is proportional to the square root of the number of photons hitting them. That is, proportional to the square root of their areas. If you compare the signal/noise of two APS-C sensors outputted to the same size, they will be very similar. If you compare the S/N at the pixel level, the smaller pixels will be noisier. That’s statistics.


----------



## Michael Clark (Sep 19, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Battery life is phenomenal. I got 1200 shots from a very old battery I get only a few hundred on with a 5DIV. And I always get less shots than most others.



My 5D IV is also a battery hog when compared to my 7D Mark II. I was thinking the batteries were the problem, so after fully charging both sets I put the two I've been using in the 7d Mark II grip in the 5D Mark IV grip and vice-versa. Nope. Exact same results. I can shoot 2,000+ frames with the 7D Mark II and have 40% left in the batteries while only shooting about 400-500 shots with the 5D Mark IV (under identical conditions at the same time) and only have 15-20% left in the batteries. Both WiFi and GPS are turned off and I do very little chimping after setting/checking manual exposure.


----------



## Michael Clark (Sep 19, 2019)

dslrdummy said:


> Their comparison with the 7Dii says the 90D has higher noise at all higher ISO level's which is disappointing.



That's not totally unexpected. The 80D was the same. It had better DR and SNR at ISO 100-400, and very slightly worse DR and SNR above ISO 800. (As measured by DxO, which normalizes image size for their "Print" measurements.)


----------



## Grant Atkinson (Sep 19, 2019)

AlanF said:


> At high iso, the signal/noise in modern efficient sensors is proportional to the square root of the number of photons hitting them. That is, proportional to the square root of their areas. If you compare the signal/noise of two APS-C sensors outputted to the same size, they will be very similar. If you compare the S/N at the pixel level, the smaller pixels will be noisier. That’s statistics.


Hi AlanF, thanks for the work in taking the time to test and compare those lenses on your 90D. I have my 90D now and i have my 7D Mark 2. I will be taking some test shots at all iso settings and also hoping to get some action shots with the camera in the next 3 days. I will try post my opinion as well as sample images here.
cheers
Grant


----------



## AlanF (Sep 19, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> I get around of 1800 shots out my 5D IVs on average. Thats a few hundreds over the thousand. Wifi is switched off


Michael also gets far fewer shots on his 5DIV, and there has been discussion elsewhere from others about the 5DIV being a battery hog, including, I recall someone who found it drained his batteries when turned off. So, how do you get so many shots? Are you using manul focus lenses without IS?




Michael Clark said:


> My 5D IV is also a battery hog when compared to my 7D Mark II. I was thinking the batteries were the problem, so after fully charging both sets I put the two I've been using in the 7d Mark II grip in the 5D Mark IV grip and vice-versa. Nope. Exact same results. I can shoot 2,000+ frames with the 7D Mark II and have 40% left in the batteries while only shooting about 400-500 shots with the 5D Mark IV (under identical conditions at the same time) and only have 15-20% left in the batteries. Both WiFi and GPS are turned off and I do very little chimping after setting/checking manual exposure.


----------



## SecureGSM (Sep 19, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Michael also gets far fewer shots on his 5DIV, and there has been discussion elsewhere from others about the 5DIV being a battery hog, including, I recall someone who found it drained his batteries when turned off. So, how do you get so many shots? Are you using manul focus lenses without IS?


I shoot usually with a pair of 5D IV, lenses: 24-70/2.8 Ii and 70-200/2.8 II, AF is on
Single shot or continuous all, RAW. All in camera Lens correction is off. GPS is off.
Please note. : I never switch cameras off. They seems to be holding battery in sleep mode really well. I typically shoot with fully charged batteries.
Current firmware. Not sure what gives.
GPS can kill battery really quickly. That has to be off. I suspect that longer lenses would drain batteries even faster as larger AF motors require move energy


----------



## AlanF (Sep 19, 2019)

Went out with the 90D + 400mm DO II + 1.4xTC. No BIF, but I got a couple of shots an Migrant Hawker dragonfly in flight. It's the wrong combo for this as the minimum focussing is too far. But, both shots were in focus using central 9 point zone.


----------



## Michael Clark (Sep 20, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> I shoot usually with a pair of 5D IV, lenses: 24-70/2.8 Ii and 70-200/2.8 II, AF is on
> Single shot or continuous all, RAW. All in camera Lens correction is off. GPS is off.
> Please note. : I never switch cameras off. They seems to be holding battery in sleep mode really well. I typically shoot with fully charged batteries.
> Current firmware. Not sure what gives.
> GPS can kill battery really quickly. That has to be off. I suspect that longer lenses would drain batteries even faster as larger AF motors require move energy



I was using an EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II on the 7D Mark II and an EF 24-105mm f/4L IS on the 5D IV on Friday night after I swapped the battery sets.
I'm shooting raw files in both cameras. GPS is turned off in both cameras. All in camera lens correction is off.


----------



## SecureGSM (Sep 20, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> I was using an EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II on the 7D Mark II and an EF 24-105mm f/4L IS on the 5D IV on Friday night after I swapped the battery sets.
> I'm shooting raw files in both cameras. GPS is turned off in both cameras. All in camera lens correction is off.


Hi Michael. I have no experience shooting with24-105/4 on 5D iV. Hmm. Really do not know how else our cases are different. I usually do not use much of AI tracking if at all. Single shot, focus and recompose or AI tracking case 2 from memory.
Even with longer lenses I was getting around 1500 shooting sports Ai tracking short bursts of 3-5 shots at a time.
I use flash quite heavily at events indoors outdoors.
You wouldn’t have the DPRAW mode enabled would you?
Unless our hardware is different. As in revision.
I really do not understand what makes my use case any different to yours. And I am quite particular around my use cases. Need at least 1200-1400 shots to cover

a play.
Example:


----------



## Michael Clark (Sep 20, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Hi Michael. I have no experience shooting with24-105/4 on 5D iV. Hmm. Really do not know how else our cases are different. I usually do not use much of AI tracking if at all. Single shot, focus and recompose or AI tracking case 2 from memory.
> Even with longer lenses I was getting around 1500 shooting sports Ai tracking short bursts of 3-5 shots at a time.
> I use flash quite heavily at events indoors outdoors.
> You wouldn’t have the DPRAW mode enabled would you?
> ...



No DPraw. No HDR, etc. Just One Shot AF (I use servo with the 70-200 on the 7D Mark II, but tend to prefocus/zone focus with wider angle lenses at f/4 or narrower) to a straight .cr2 file written to one card. That camera does about the same no matter what lens is on it. I also use an EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L (original version), EF 17-40mm f/4L, EF 135mm f/2L, EF 50mm f/1.4, and EF 85mm f/1.8 with it as well. Occasionally the 70-200 comes off the 7D Mark II and I use it on the FF, but not usually for extended shoots lasting several hours.


----------



## GreenViper (Sep 21, 2019)

Out testing my 90D today. Was mystified by the availability of only a single/spot point AF on my 400 DO with 2x extender (i.e. F8) but 27 focus points for the 100-400II with 1.4x. However if you look in the supplemental information sheet you can see this is correct although annoying. Attempting to focus on a BIF with a single AF point at 800mm was a bit hit and miss....! Pretty snappy with 400 DO II &1.4x though


----------



## TPatS (Sep 22, 2019)

DPreview, said in a video that the autofocus couldn't keep up focus at 10fps in the viewfinder in their testing. Wondering what people here think of the autofocus abilities at 10fps.


----------



## Bennymiata (Sep 22, 2019)

Jordan from DPR seems to quite like the 90d, surprisingly.
He also seems to like the M6ll as well.
Maybe he's starting to come over to the dark side (insert frightening laugh here).


----------



## AlanF (Sep 22, 2019)

GreenViper said:


> Out testing my 90D today. Was mystified by the availability of only a single/spot point AF on my 400 DO with 2x extender (i.e. F8) but 27 focus points for the 100-400II with 1.4x. However if you look in the supplemental information sheet you can see this is correct although annoying. Attempting to focus on a BIF with a single AF point at 800mm was a bit hit and miss....! Pretty snappy with 400 DO II &1.4x though


I hadn't noticed the limitation of AF on the 400mm DO II because one of my conclusions after extensive testing (using centre AF point!) was not to use the 400mm DO II +2xTC. Going to f/8, which is over the DLA, and the high image degradation of a 2xTC can give worse images than using a 1.4xTC. I also use my 400mm DO II only up to 560mm on my 5DSR although I use it regularly with the lower resolution 5DIV. In any case, 800mm on a crop gives too narrow a field of view for me for BIF unless they are slow moving large majestic ones.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 22, 2019)

TPatS said:


> DPreview, said in a video that the autofocus couldn't keep up focus at 10fps in the viewfinder in their testing. Wondering what people here think of the autofocus abilities at 10fps.



I have been finding it fine. What AF points were they using?


----------



## AlanF (Sep 22, 2019)

By the way, as DxO PL cannot as yet handle the .CR3 files, I have been using DPP and PS. Noise suppression is awful with DPP and not good with PS. The other great RAW converter is Photo Ninja which also has excellent noise suppression. As it is also not yet compatible with the 90D RAW but will accept any DNG file, I am using PS to generate DNGs and then converting those with Photo Ninja.


----------



## TPatS (Sep 22, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I have been finding it fine. What AF points were they using?


They didn't really say. Probably a single af with tracking.




Have a watch for yourself


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 22, 2019)

AlanF said:


> By the way, as DxO PL cannot as yet handle the .CR3 files, I have been using DPP and PS. Noise suppression is awful with DPP and not good with PS. The other great RAW converter is Photo Ninja which also has excellent noise suppression. As it is also not yet compatible with the 90D RAW but will accept any DNG file, I am using PS to generate DNGs and then converting those with Photo Ninja.


Alan. I have never used DxO PL but your regular comments about its noise suppression capabilities has me thinking I should give it a go. Is it a decent subsitute for LR editing? Not particularly worried about the organization capabilities but just the editing.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 22, 2019)

TPatS said:


> They didn't really say. Probably a single af with tracking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am not a Youtube watcher and am grateful to those who are and summarise.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 22, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> Alan. I have never used DxO PL but your regular comments about its noise suppression capabilities has me thinking I should give it a go. Is it a decent subsitute for LR editing? Not particularly worried about the organization capabilities but just the editing.


Here is an interesting blog:








DXO PhotoLab 2 Vs Photo Ninja - Andy Bell Photography


DXO Photo Lab V2 has been released. What's new? Is it worth the upgrade? How does it compare with Photo Ninja? Read my review to find out.




www.andybellphotography.com


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 22, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Here is an interesting blog:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cheers mate


----------



## clbayley (Sep 22, 2019)

AlanF - I am curious about your finding of the Nik Denoise plugin. I don't know if I have ever seen you mention it. How does it compare to DXO? I like it because you can move the control points around and aggressively denoise the background while being gentle on the subject...


----------



## AlanF (Sep 22, 2019)

clbayley said:


> AlanF - I am curious about your finding of the Nik Denoise plugin. I don't know if I have ever seen you mention it. How does it compare to DXO? I like it because you can move the control points around and aggressively denoise the background while being gentle on the subject...


I had used it in the past when it was a free plug in for PS. It's now marketed by DxO. It seemed to be good at removing noise but it lost detail relative to DxO PRIME and now Photo Ninja. I am no expert on the different RAW converters and software packages but from what I have read and used myself, it does seem that DxO and Ninja have the edge on the rest. I recommend the Andy Bell reviews.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 22, 2019)

For interest, here the Migrant Hawker dragonfly with minimal processing from PS directly to jpeg (above) and PS to DNG and then PhotoNinja (below). (The one I showed earlier was a jpeg smoothed by PhotoNinja from a screenshot.) PhotoNinja tones down the highlights and brings out the colours more as well as much better noise reduction and retention of detail. This shot was at iso640 with a very dark background that shows noise.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Sep 22, 2019)

Looks promising. That sensor certainly seems like a solid performer. Any chance for an "executive summary" after you've had a chance to sort through the details? Build quality/operability, AF and IQ would probably be the headline items for most of us. Thanks.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 22, 2019)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Looks promising. That sensor certainly seems like a solid performer. Any chance for an "executive summary" after you've had a chance to sort through the details? Build quality/operability, AF and IQ would probably be the headline items for most of us. Thanks.


Will do so soon. I am happy with my purchase alongside my other gear.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Sep 22, 2019)

Thanks Alan. From what I've been able to gather this is appears to be Canon's least ISO variant sensor to date. Great news for those of us who often shoot backlit subjects.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 22, 2019)

I'm definitely hoping to get this camera, everything is sounding good. I've hardly used the 5DS for some time as I was hoping to sell, and as I only wanted it for the cropping ability mostly on small birds, the 90D seems a better bet for me now. I take the point about it being harder to track small subjects with a narrower FOV, but I'll get used to it hopefully. The only problem is my old copy of Lightroom won't be able to handle the files, so I'll have to convert from raw some other way. But a price worth paying.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (Sep 22, 2019)

the dpreview article on the 90d was interesting 
Especially at the end when they compare it with the m6
I’m not sure what canons strategy and positioning is 

do you have a sense on what the 90d is supposed to be going forward for canons lineup?




AlanF said:


> The Sigma pairs with it well. One good thing about the 90D vs M6 II is that it has a nice deep grip for handling the long lenses.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 22, 2019)

*Initial Summary*
I am primarily a bird photographer, and that is my perspective for these comments.

*Build*
Flimsier than a 5DIV but still reasonably robust and the ports and doors have seals. Good grip and Canon ergonomics. Easy to hold with a 100-400mm II. Menu is very similar to 5D/7D series.

*AF*
The centre point is excellent: fast and accurate, with the added bonus of point focus. Just right for pinpointing a bird hidden in foliage or a big slow one in flight.

The centre 9 point zone is not as fast for locking on but still good. I have used it for a dragonfly flying, tracking a heron flying against a background, and it’s very good for finding and tracking birds in flight against the sky.

All 45 points can be very slow for focussing against a background unless the object is clear in the foreground. It will lock on to birds flying against the sky and all the points work. 

The focussing is slower with a Sigma 150-600mm C.

*Image quality*
The quality is excellent. It doesn’t reach its full potential because of its AA-filter. But, it outresolves my 5DSR by about 10-20% with the same lens and clearly outresolves my 5DIV by a factor of 1.5-1.6. In other words, the 90D + telephoto has somewhat better resolution than a 5DIV or EOS R + telephoto + 1.4xTC. It also pairs well with a Sigma 150-600mm C. You get some extra reach adding a 1.4xTC to a 100-400mm II, and definitely gives excellent resolution with a 1.4xTC on a 400mm DO II at f/5.6. In fact, the 90D + 400mm DO II + 1.4xTC seriously outresolves the 5DIV + 400mm DO II + 2xTC.

For normal use, I would restrict the f-number to 5.6 or less and have the 90D as my walk around camera with a 100-400mm II.
For distant birds in good light, I might add a 1.4xTC, which may give some better images but the 400mm DO II + 1.4xTC would be a killer.

*Frame rate*
I get a burst of 32 RAW shots in about 3s in AI Servo, and then the buffer takes time to clear as I have been using a slow card. I’ll buy a UHS-II.

*For me*
I am a happy purchaser and recommend the 90D. Until now, my wife and I have travelled for birding trips sharing a 5DIV and 5DSR. But, the 5DSR has generally had the edge on producing good images. From now on, we will be sharing the 5DSR and 90D. The FF of the 5DSR compensates somewhat for the faster frame rate and slightly higher resolution of the 90D. The smaller files of the 90D are appreciated. I would like to see in the future a Canon high density FF with a RAW crop mode.


----------



## tron (Sep 30, 2019)

So Alan do you suggest the 90D over the 5DsR and 7D2 (OK I know your answer about 7D2!!). I am thinking 400 and 500mm f/4 combinations preferably without tc.
Of course 5DsR has advantage in BIF in attempts to keep the bird inside the frame. I have a feeling though that 7DII is better at BIF than 5DsR.

How 90D fits in all these?

P.S I got my 5DsR (and now a second one) due to your very good impression and - you were right! - I liked it a lot. So if you make me get a 90D I will have to send you the bill!!


----------



## tron (Sep 30, 2019)

By the way how does it behave noisewise in shady conditions?


----------



## AlanF (Sep 30, 2019)

tron said:


> So Alan do you suggest the 90D over the 5DsR and 7D2 (OK I know your answer about 7D2!!). I am thinking 400 and 500mm f/4 combinations preferably without tc.
> Of course 5DsR has advantage in BIF in attempts to keep the bird inside the frame. I have a feeling though that 7DII is better at BIF than 5DsR.
> 
> How 90D fits in all these?
> ...


The 5DSR and 90D are both excellent and different. As long as you stick either to the centre point or the 9 points, the 5DSR is very good for BIF, and the bird is often in focus if it escapes from them and still in frame. So, I prefer the full frame for locating the bird and keeping it in frame. The 90D is at least as good with those sets of points. The 90D does outresolve the 5DSR but you definitely need the best lenses and wider apertures to take full advantage of the smaller pixels. My 100-400mm II is a really good copy and very sharp edge-to-edge but the 400mm DO II has now pulled in front of it, and the TCs are showing their limitations. The smaller file size of the 90D is a real plus, and in CRAW mode a further 40% smaller - so faster processing and less storage required. At the same size output in cms, the noise is the same. But, at a single pixel level at higher iso, the 90D is slightly noisier.
We need two high resolution cameras for when we travel together. And even though I really like the 5DIV it is simply not as good as good for high resolution to get the best out of bird photography and so you need longer lenses. I would have been equally happy with a second 5DSR at current prices. What the 90D now does is to allow you to travel with just one telephoto for bird photography, in my opinion the 100-400mm II, and give you enough reach, equivalent in terms of both reach and IQ, of a 640mm lens on a 5DIV, without faffing around with extenders and be able to zoom out as well. You can do nearly as well with the 5DSR, but 1.4xTC does help more with that.


----------



## dpc (Sep 30, 2019)

Hi, Alan! Thanks for your efforts in reviewing this camera. I've been thinking of switching off my 7DMII for the 90D, primarily for the somewhat smaller form factor and the enhanced ability to crop since I do take a lot of bird pictures. I note that you find the Sigma 150-600mm C to be slower focusing on this camera. How much does this impede your ability to capture BIF? I see some reviewers of the 90D (ie: Gordon Lang) find the autofocus through the viewfinder to be problematic. Thanks.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 30, 2019)

dpc said:


> Hi, Alan! Thanks for your efforts in reviewing this camera. I've been thinking of switching off my 7DMII for the 90D, primarily for the somewhat smaller form factor and the enhanced ability to crop since I do take a lot of bird pictures. I note that you find the Sigma 150-600mm C to be slower focusing on this camera. How much does this impede your ability to capture BIF? I see some reviewers of the 90D (ie: Gordon Lang) find the autofocus through the viewfinder to be problematic. Thanks.


The AF with the 100-400mm II for birds is really good using, as I wrote the centre point or the centre 9 points.
I began testing the the Sigma 150-600mm C for BIF a couple of days ago and still working on it but birds are difficult to find here at this time. At 400mm, it's quite reasonable though you might want to use the longer MFD setting. At 600mm, it's slow. For large slow moving birds in the distance, it will work. I will test more when I can.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 30, 2019)

Here are some shots taken yesterday of a gull, the full reduced to fit here. Two groups of consecutive shots at 400mm with the Sigma 150-600mm C. The gull is in sharp focus, picked out by the 9 centre points.


----------



## tron (Sep 30, 2019)

Many thanks Alan for your detailed responses about 90D.


----------



## dpc (Oct 2, 2019)

I have a 7DMII which I am quite happy with. However, I am intrigued by the 90D and am considering getting rid of the 7DMII in its favour. I'm primarily interested in two things with respect to changing cameras: 1. The weight and size advantage of the 90D and crucially 2. The image quality and possibilities for better cropping latitude. There's a big increase in megapixels in the 90D. I know it's early but does anyone have any experience which permits judgement with respect to image quality?


----------



## AlanF (Oct 5, 2019)

dpc said:


> I have a 7DMII which I am quite happy with. However, I am intrigued by the 90D and am considering getting rid of the 7DMII in its favour. I'm primarily interested in two things with respect to changing cameras: 1. The weight and size advantage of the 90D and crucially 2. The image quality and possibilities for better cropping latitude. There's a big increase in megapixels in the 90D. I know it's early but does anyone have any experience which permits judgement with respect to image quality?


As far as IQ is concerned, my first-hand experience is that the 5DSR is better than the 7DII, and the 90D outresolves the 5DSR and has excellent image quality. The 90D is significantly better than the 7DII for cropping. I found the 7DII to be excellent at BIF, and my memory is not good enough to rate the 90D against it. You tend to post images perched or swimming birds so I think the 90D might be an upgrade for you if you want more cropping. Best to try it before getting rid of your trusty 7DII, or better still keep both for a while.


----------



## dpc (Oct 5, 2019)

AlanF said:


> As far as IQ is concerned, my first-hand experience is that the 5DSR is better than the 7DII, and the 90D outresolves the 5DSR and has excellent image quality. The 90D is significantly better than the 7DII for cropping. I found the 7DII to be excellent at BIF, and my memory is not good enough to rate the 90D against it. You tend to post images perched or swimming birds so I think the 90D might be an upgrade for you if you want more cropping. Best to try it before getting rid of your trusty 7DII, or better still keep both for a while.


 
Thanks for the response, Alan, and thanks for your efforts in reviewing the 90D.


----------



## dtaylor (Oct 6, 2019)

Adding my thanks for the detailed report Alan!


----------



## dpc (Oct 8, 2019)

Although I'm interested in the 90D, I see there are concerns regarding it's autofocus system. I note that Gordon Laing in his recent review of the camera concludes that the 6DMII is better able to follow BIF.


----------



## Joules (Oct 8, 2019)

dpc said:


> I note that Gordon Laing in his recent review of the camera concludes that the 6DMII is better able to follow BIF.


Do you mean the M6 II? The 6D II is a weird comparison - especially since it also has the 80D AF sensor but with much older hardware and software than the 90D behind it.


----------



## Sharlin (Oct 8, 2019)

Joules said:


> Do you mean the M6 II? The 6D II is a weird comparison - especially since it also has the 80D AF sensor but with much older hardware and software than the 90D behind it.



Yep. Gordon remarks that of the two, ironically the M6II is the better action camera and the 90D is the better video camera!


----------



## dpc (Oct 8, 2019)

Joules said:


> Do you mean the M6 II? The 6D II is a weird comparison - especially since it also has the 80D AF sensor but with much older hardware and software than the 90D behind it.



Yes, I mean the M6MII!


----------



## AlanF (Oct 8, 2019)

dpc said:


> Although I'm interested in the 90D, I see there are concerns regarding it's autofocus system. I note that Gordon Laing in his recent review of the camera concludes that the 6DMII is better able to follow BIF.


Gordon Laing’s idea of a bird in flight is a gull flying over the seafront at Brighton. The 90D does that BIF very well too. And it also does liveview very well indeed. This morning I did my first portrait session using the 50mm 1.8 STM and liveview with eye AF enabled. Worked perfectly for every shot. Basically, the 90D gives a very capable body on which you can attach and hold a big telephoto for nature photography and it has inside it the best bits of the M6 II to use as a mirrorless. If you want something small and very light and use small lenses, get the M6 II. If you want something chunky enough to hold for larger lenses and can do most of what the M6 does, get the 90D.


----------



## tron (Oct 11, 2019)

AlanF said:


> ...
> *Frame rate*
> I get a burst of 32 RAW shots in about 3s in AI Servo, and then the buffer takes time to clear as I have been using a slow card. I’ll buy a UHS-II.
> ...


Hello Alan,

a couple of questions regarding card speed:

Did you test it with a UHS-II?

What UHS-I card did you use? I personally use Sandisk extreme pro which has a write speed of 90MB/sec top which I believe is the fastest we can get for UHS-I.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 11, 2019)

tron said:


> Hello Alan,
> 
> a couple of questions regarding card speed:
> 
> ...


I have tried it first with a Sandisk Extreme and just now with a new Sandisk Extreme Pro 170 read and 90 write. Here is what Grant who has tested wrote:


Grant Atkinson said:


> Hi Alan
> So I am not a scientist  and I don't have enough hands to operate a stopwatch for the exercise.
> 
> About the cards, with a Sandisk Extreme Pro 300 Mb/sec SDXC II card of 32GB capacity, at shutter speed 1/1250 at f4.0, iso from 400-640, with Release and Speed priority AF enabled, I can get 29 RAW shots before the camera stops. With that card, it seems that within one second or perhaps one and a half seconds I am able to start shooting again, not the full 29 but at least some bursts of 4 or 5 frames.
> ...


I think I was between the two. However, the burst size depends on the iso and file size, which depend on noise. Before, with a well-lit scene, I was getting some 27 shots in a burst. As the scene gets darker, the burst size decreases as the file size increases. At a 30 Mb file size, I get a burst of 22 shots, about 660 Mb before filling. Using CRAW, I get 44 shots each of 14 Mb, about 620 Mb, before it stops and stutters.


----------



## tron (Oct 11, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I have tried it first with a Sandisk Extreme and just now with a new Sandisk Extreme Pro 170 read and 90 write. Here is what Grant who has tested wrote:
> 
> I think I was between the two. However, the burst size depends on the iso and file size, which depend on noise. Before, with a well-lit scene, I was getting some 27 shots in a burst. As the scene gets darker, the burst size decreases as the file size increases. At a 30 Mb file size, I get a burst of 22 shots, about 660 Mb before filling. Using CRAW, I get 44 shots each of 14 Mb, about 620 Mb, before it stops and stutters.


Many thanks Alan. The fact with both card types the buffer filled with the same number of photos points to Canon's algorithms (Remember the major improvement in 7D after a firmware upgrade?)

It seems that C-RAW is the most useful selection for that matter.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 11, 2019)

tron said:


> Many thanks Alan. The fact with both card types the buffer filled with the same number of photos points to Canon's algorithms (Remember the major improvement in 7D after a firmware upgrade?)
> 
> It seems that C-RAW is the most useful selection for that matter.


I survive quite well with the limited burst of the 5DSR and the way I use it will never get near saturating the 90D.


----------



## tron (Oct 12, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I survive quite well with the limited burst of the 5DSR and the way I use it will never get near saturating the 90D.


Yes I have seen some very nice photos of yours. Also I do not use the full 10fps of my 7D2. When I used it I set it either to 4 (max setting for silent mode) or 8 for the high speed. More than enough. And most of the time I keep my 5DsR at the silent continuous mode (3fps) and CF (which has some advantages in speed relative to the sd).


----------



## AlanF (Oct 12, 2019)

tron said:


> Yes I have seen some very nice photos of yours. Also I do not use the full 10fps of my 7D2. When I used it I set it either to 4 (max setting for silent mode) or 8 for the high speed. More than enough. And most of the time I keep my 5DsR at the silent continuous mode (3fps) and CF (which has some advantages in speed relative to the sd).


Same here for the 5DSR and I was the same for the 7DII except when I BIF at 1/2500 - 1/4000s.


----------



## Pape (Oct 18, 2019)

They should make new tele lens ,worthy for new 32mpix sensor.
EF-S 150mm f4L sharpest canon lens never made and weight like 200g
around 135mm lenses seems to be sharpest on sony and zeiss.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 18, 2019)

Pape said:


> They should make new tele lens ,worthy for new 32mpix sensor.
> EF-S 150mm f4L sharpest canon lens never made and weight like 200g
> around 135mm lenses seems to be sharpest on sony and zeiss.


I'd like a very light 300mm f/4 to replace the antique one. It won't be any heavier to have it FF. The Nikon PF one is really good.


----------

