# Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000



## paeataa (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm totally new to DSLRs and deciding between Canon 60D and Nikon D7000. Either of those will be my first DSLR -- a huge jump from Canon IS S3 series. Though I really love my Canon IS S3, it's time to upgrade and seriously learn to take great photos.

I love the articulated screen of Canon 60D, but it seems D7000 has a lot more to offer. And it seems there is a big disappointment among Canon lovers on the 60D. I can't decide which one would be better for my $1500 budget (camera + lens(es)).

Could you guys tell me the pros and cons of these two models? 

Thanks!


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## Jan (Sep 14, 2010)

First of all you should wait until the D7000 is officially announced.

Second, I personally would wait until both DSLRs are widely available to see at which price they will fit into the current market...


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## ELK (Sep 14, 2010)

paeataa said:


> I'm totally new to DSLRs and deciding between Canon 60D and Nikon D7000. Either of those will be my first DSLR -- a huge jump from Canon IS S3 series. Though I really love my Canon IS S3, it's time to upgrade and seriously learn to take great photos.
> 
> I love the articulated screen of Canon 60D, but it seems D7000 has a lot more to offer. And it seems there is a big disappointment among Canon lovers on the 60D. I can't decide which one would be better for my $1500 budget (camera + lens(es)).
> 
> ...



The answer is in your question. 60D has almost nothing to compete against D7000, if we believe the specs of D7000 are true. Given that the ESP of D7000 is just $100 higher than of 60D, I wouldn't think for a second.
However we should wait until D7000 is officially announced.


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## ELK (Sep 14, 2010)

Jan said:


> First of all you should wait until the D7000 is officially announced.
> 
> Second, I personally would wait until both DSLRs are widely available to see at which price they will fit into the current market...



Totally agree. It's already clear that specs wise 60D is not a competitor for D7000. Nikon and Canon seem always to avoid direct competition, and to the Canon's move into Nikon's area with 7D, Nikon answered with a hit into Canon's traditional XXD area. But Canon was prepared and already left that area by downgrading 60D. The game is the same, but the roles have changed. and soon the prices will settle somewhere at $1000 for D7000 and $850 for 60D.


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## CameraAddict (Sep 14, 2010)

ELK said:


> Totally agree. It's already clear that specs wise 60D is not a competitor for D7000. Nikon and Canon seem always to avoid direct competition, and to the Canon's move into Nikon's area with 7D, Nikon answered with a hit into Canon's traditional XXD area. But Canon was prepared and already left that area by downgrading 60D. The game is the same, but the roles have changed. and soon the prices will settle somewhere at $1000 for D7000 and $850 for 60D.



Which brings the question, how will the T2i fit into this lineup. I'd say the T2i will die or downgrade.


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## unfocused (Sep 14, 2010)

Only you can decide this. It depends on what you want out of a camera. 

But, you should definitely NOT decide solely on the basis of one or two minor features on the latest camera models. When you buy an SLR, you are buying into a complete system and you need to consider everything: lenses, flash, accessories, etc., but most especially the lenses. Even if you are just starting out with a single lens, you will eventually want to add to that collection. (And surreptitiously sneak it into the house when your spouse isn't looking. ) Traditionally, Canon has held a slight price advantage over Nikon in lenses, but there are plenty of exceptions.

Technology is changing rapidly and camera bodies seem to be running on about a two-year cycle these days, so eventually you will replace the body itself but you won't want to have to start all over again with a lens system.

Read reviews as they come out and take EVERYTHING you read on this site with a grain of salt. No one here is objective and many of the discussions center around esoteric technical points that don't have much relevance to the average person. This site has a comment history, that will enable you to see what axe the commenter has to grind. There are also some very knowledgeable people contributing to this forum (folks that have far more technological knowledge than I do or care to have). You can identify them from the comment history as well.

Remember that anything you read here about the 60D is based on a camera that hasn't even been released. If you care about the technical details, watch sites like dpreview.com. In my opinion they do a very good job. Others may disagree. You can read the photography press as well, although you'll find that they tend to be advocates, rather than critics (don't want to offend the advertisers, you know.) Still their reviews are generally reasonable.

Ultimately, the camera is just a tool and you'll be able to take great pictures with either one.


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## Son of Daguerre (Sep 15, 2010)

paeataa said:


> I'm totally new to DSLRs and deciding between Canon 60D and Nikon D7000. Either of those will be my first DSLR -- a huge jump from Canon IS S3 series. Though I really love my Canon IS S3, it's time to upgrade and seriously learn to take great photos.
> 
> I love the articulated screen of Canon 60D, but it seems D7000 has a lot more to offer. And it seems there is a big disappointment among Canon lovers on the 60D. I can't decide which one would be better for my $1500 budget (camera + lens(es)).
> 
> ...



The "disappointment" is for prosumers who wanted a camera better than the 50D. Being that you're coming from the S3 IS, I would say that you should rather take the 60D. Yes, the AF isn't as good, but you're stepping up, aren't you? And the Vari-Angle LCD will be a nice thing that stays with you during the switch.

When you decide to move up, you'll go for the 7D or the supposed 7D Mark II. Although personally I see nothing wrong with the 60D. A Camry will work just as well as a Lamborghini.


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## Justin (Sep 15, 2010)

I have a canon system that i like a lot, but unless you plan to shoot with tilt shift lenses buy into nikon. Better prices (never thought I'd say that). All the lenses upgraded on schedule (no ridiculous waits for upgrades) think 24, 35, 85, 200, 300. Canon used to have more affordale lenses but the new ones cost more now. There's no reason not to pick the more attractive total package. That would be nikon right now.


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## LukeS (Sep 15, 2010)

according to dpreview the price of the D7000 with kit lens is $700 *jaw drop to floor*. Canon is definitely going to have to drop some prices.

*edit:* looks like dpreview seriously messed up on the price: http://dpreview.com/previews/nikond7000/page2.asp

nikon's site says $1200 http://www.nikonusa.com/Find-Your-Nikon/Product/Digital-SLR/25468/D7000.html


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## paeataa (Sep 15, 2010)

LukeS said:


> according to dpreview the price of the D7000 with kit lens is $700 *jaw drop to floor*. Canon is definitely going to have to drop some prices.
> 
> *edit:* looks like dpreview seriously messed up on the price: http://dpreview.com/previews/nikond7000/page2.asp
> 
> nikon's site says $1200 http://www.nikonusa.com/Find-Your-Nikon/Product/Digital-SLR/25468/D7000.html



If that appeared to be the correct price, which I doubt, I'd buy one for sure. Good bye Canon though I have always been a big fan of them


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## LukeS (Sep 15, 2010)

dpreview also screwed up on the shutter spec they say "Shutter tested to 300k actuations" here: http://dpreview.com/previews/NikonD7000/

and say 150K here: http://dpreview.com/previews/nikond7000/page3.asp


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## that1guy (Sep 15, 2010)

To the OP - Everyone is right, it really is up to you as to what you like in a camera. The D7000 is announced now, so you will be able to see the specs, but personally, I always like to see some actual tests from the camera, although to be honest, I'm sure either of these cameras will be more than up to the task. If I were starting out in a system from the beginning, I would look into everything from flashes, to lenses, to the current body I am looking at, to the upgrade bodies...see what appeals to you. I would also try to get into a camera store and actually hold them both in your hands...after all, it is going to spend a lot of time there 

If you are _just_ looking at specs, I can't see much on the 60D that would make you want to pick that over the Nikon. The Nikon's specs and price are quite impressive.

If anyone is interested, Chase Jarvis got his hands on one of these a while back and took some photos and made a video. You can see it on his blog here:
http://blog.chasejarvis.com/blog/2010/09/nikon-d7000/


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## unexposure (Sep 15, 2010)

From what I read in several forums, (p)reviews is, that d7000 is likely to be some kind of overkill for photography when compared to 60D. Regarding video it's just vice versa.

But ohne thing I still couldn't find out: Has d7000 some kind of MFA? ;-)


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## unruled (Sep 15, 2010)

http://www.petapixel.com/2010/09/14/nikon-officially-announces-the-d7000-two-pro-lenses-and-a-speedlight/#more-15558

official announcement.

Those specs are a lot better than the 60d, and several pro additions are made to the d7000 there (100% viewfinder, dual mem slots, better AF).

since it will be your first SLR though I would just say to go into a shop and play with a few models, find one that you like and fits well into your hand. As first SLR, the exact details and abilities are not the most important aspect of the camera.


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## ELK (Sep 15, 2010)

Goodbye Canon!

Nikon has proved once more it's a photographer-centric company. In such a tough times this small company releases D3100 and D7000 both fantastic upgrades. Canon, in contrast has much better financial buffer, but they seem to cut intensely on R&D and release ridiculous 60D, G12 and S95 - none of them has any serios step forward from previous versions with 60D being a step backward.

Of course Canon releases excellent lenses, but still they seem to concentrate on sports/wildlife more than on wide-angle lenses. So a whole amateur semi-pro segment is absolutely ignored. Nikon, in contrast, tries to satisfy all segments, yes, sometimes with big delays, but still they do it as hard as they can!

I don't think it's wise for me, an average amateur, to continue invest into Canon, which lets me down. I won't sell my 40D and lenses for now, but I will definitely buy D7000 and give a try to Nikon again! They deserve to be the best!


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## J (Sep 15, 2010)

Saw the D7000. Quite impressed--it's 90%+ of the 7D. Then I saw a preorder link.

Holy cow! Only $100 over the 60D. I can't help but think Canon really shot themselves in the foot now! Before there was "hope" that Nikon would price too high. No such "luck"!

70D will be coming sooner rather than later methinks.


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## davidonformosa (Sep 15, 2010)

It's easy to get obsessed with the specs of the latest camera. It's worth remembering that two years from now both Canon and Nikon will have released even newer models to replace them. Hopefully a new camera will last a bit longer than that, but you will probably replace it within four or five years. Who knows what Canon or Nikon might be offering then? 

The bottom line is: they're both very good cameras and in the hands of a competent photographer either of them can take great photos. (I haven't used either camera, but I am confident in the truth of this statement.)


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## J (Sep 15, 2010)

SLRs have long since met the quality requirements for great images. Everything new in the past few years are just gravy really. Brand/spec arguments are just for fun.


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## Jan (Sep 15, 2010)

dilbert said:


> The AF on the D7000 is not better.
> 
> It might have 39 AF points but only 9 are cross type.
> 
> ...


That's wrong. AF-tracking is impossible with he 60D because the AF sensors are not close enough to pass the focus to the adjacent sensor.
If the AF system of the D7000 works as good as the system of the 7D is not said, but it definitely works better than the 60D's (which is easy as it doesn't work ).


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## kubelik (Sep 15, 2010)

I'm a canon guy and hate whiners as much as the next guy. I do want to observe that nikon has thrown a huge curveball at canon with the d7000 and is just daring canon to try to take a swing at it.

if the d7000 is going to retail for $1100 (that $700 figure someone threw out there is totally bogus and erroneous), I simply don't see how canon can retail the 60D at the same price. for the time being, if someone is looking to buy into an mid-range consumer cam without preexisting glass ... how can you seriously recommend the 60D?

that being said, canon and nikon have almost always done off-step major updates; I have no doubt that 2011 or 2012 is going to be wild for people interested in the bigger bodies, and I'm happy for that. my only worry is not having enough dough on hand to take advantage of the goodies canon will be dropping next year or the year after


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 15, 2010)

dilbert said:


> It might have 39 AF points but only 9 are cross type.
> 
> The 60D also has 9 cross type AF sensors.
> 
> In other words, the D7000 has an extra 30 AF sensors that _you do not want to use_.



The 5DII only has one cross-type AF point. Does that mean it has 8 extra selectable AF sensors and 6 extra 'invisible' AF sensors that you do not want to use, meaning it's effectively a single-AF-point, focus and recompose only camera body?

I'm just sayin'  

But then, I haven't bought a 5DII mainly because it's still using the 5D's antiquated AF system, which as you point out, is not even as good as the one in the 40D (which is the same one used in the 60D).


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## Stone (Sep 15, 2010)

kubelik said:


> I'm a canon guy and hate whiners as much as the next guy. I do want to observe that nikon has thrown a huge curveball at canon with the d7000 and is just daring canon to try to take a swing at it.
> 
> if the d7000 is going to retail for $1100 (that $700 figure someone threw out there is totally bogus and erroneous), I simply don't see how canon can retail the 60D at the same price. for the time being, if someone is looking to buy into an mid-range consumer cam without preexisting glass ... how can you seriously recommend the 60D?
> 
> that being said, canon and nikon have almost always done off-step major updates; I have no doubt that 2011 or 2012 is going to be wild for people interested in the bigger bodies, and I'm happy for that. my only worry is not having enough dough on hand to take advantage of the goodies canon will be dropping next year or the year after



I'll admit that I've been whining a lot more than normal, I'm even starting to annoy myself ;D 

But I'm starting to see a pattern with Canon, they seem uninterested in beating the competition, just evolving their bodies in their own little world which I think is a huge mistake. They released the 7D which I still consider the king of crop bodies and I thought was a sign of the new Canon, but then they release the 1DIV which while a great body didn't break any new ground, it was more of a 1DIIIn IMO. Now they release the 60D which most ppl i've talked to give a great big yawn and it gets smacked down within a few days by the D7000. I've always looked to Canon to advance the DSLR market and I just don't see them doing it right now.


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## martijn (Sep 15, 2010)

Oh these things come in waves...

I remember when I started out in DSLR-land...I was looking at all those bodies that were out there...Nikon had just released the D300-great, unfortunately too expensive for me...but their latest entry-level offering at that time was considered rather lame even by Nikon fans-ironically, it was the D60-and Canon had just sprung the 450D, which surprised everybody with it's many advanced features and great sensor...so that's the one I went for.

So now it's the other way around...never mind, the cycle will continue.


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## caoran9238 (Sep 15, 2010)

*unfortunately, Nikon D7000*

I'm a dedicated Canon user, and I really want to recommend Canon 60D, but I can't. If you are looking for a semi-pro camera, definitely the D7000. Will sell for $1500 and comes with 18-105mm lens from October. Canon sells 60D with 18-135mm at $1400. But the Nikon is much better built, and should have better focusing (speed and more points), and it is definitely worth the extra $100.


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## scalesusa (Sep 16, 2010)

As a long time Canon user, at least, on paper, the D7000 is very impressive.

However, both D60 and D7000 are paper cameras right now, once they are tested and the operational quirks come out, we'll see.

Canon is obviously intending to beat the D7000 on price. Most cameras are sold thru big box stores, Best Buy, walmart, Ritz, etc. Price is the deciding factor to those who buy, so Canon may be successful. Chances are, the articulating LCD will appeal to many newbie users while the finer points will go unnoticed.

The 50d was between the D90 and the D300 and did not get much traction even though it was a excellent camera.


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## airfang (Sep 16, 2010)

guys, I guess you won't be so disappointed by Canon if 60D is an upgrade for 550D (T2i), it actually could have been named 600D

Don't judge the camera by its name  Nikon's been messing the users with the naming convention (even more with the announcement of D7000), and now Canon probably tries to play the same card?


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## ELK (Sep 16, 2010)

airfang said:


> guys, I guess you won't be so disappointed by Canon if 60D is an upgrade for 550D (T2i), it actually could have been named 600D
> 
> Don't judge the camera by its name  Nikon's been messing the users with the naming convention (even more with the announcement of D7000), and now Canon probably tries to play the same card?



I understand your positivism, optimism and hope. But for Canon customers it's a pure money issue.
Of course, as you say, we won't be disappointed by Canon if 60D was an upgrade for 550D (T2i) named 600D, with swivel screen, without top LCD screen, same old 9 AF points, pentamirror, no-LCD top screen and announced at price of $800-850. But this new 60D Rebel costs too much and I don't think that pentaprism + LCD top screen + battery price difference cost $300. 

Canon what you do with your customers is called "verarschen" in german, I can't find a close english word for it.

No, Canon, no! By no means!


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## unruled (Sep 16, 2010)

only translation for verarschen I can come up with is, they fucked it up 

But yeah, in all seriousness: for users with no slr history and no lenses yet: the nikon is a better choice here.

For those of us that already have canon gear, I guess either upgrade to 7d or higher, or wait a few yrs 
I'l just stick with my 40d which I love.


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## kubelik (Sep 16, 2010)

scalesusa said:


> As a long time Canon user, at least, on paper, the D7000 is very impressive.
> 
> However, both D60 and D7000 are paper cameras right now, once they are tested and the operational quirks come out, we'll see.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure the 50D "did not get much traction" in reality; from the number of people I know that own 50Ds, it seems to have penetrated the market just fine. I don't know that you can judge the overall market reaction from the comments you see on CR or dpreview, which are usually more rabid than the general populace


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 16, 2010)

Again, the 60D was spec'ed to a certain price point. Cut it down to $900 and it's a guaranteed winner. Then there would be no need for a 2000D. Just price the 500D to $600, 550D to $750, and the 600D/Rebel T3i 60D to $900 and they're back in the game. D7K is also great news for those eyeing the 7D, I expect it to go down to $1300-$1400. 7D Mark II should be APS-H IMHO.


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 16, 2010)

There is also something kinda nasty with the D7K design, just look at the pics on DPR. It's too tall and/or narrow, even more so when seen side-by-side with the 60D, D300s. The buttons and overall look & design at the back also screams "cheap", like it's Made in Thailand or Taiwan, woops, it is made in Thailand like all the non-pro Noink bodies . Just compare it with the buttons and overall quality feel on the 7D rear, IMHO it's the best looking and feeling non-pro body right now, even better than the somewhat-dated but more expensive 5D2 body. I've also found out that the D7K has mag-alloy only on the top&bottom plates, the rest is still plastic & steel.

The AF sensor, like that on the higher Nikon bodies, is a direct rip-off of the EOS-1/EOS-3 AF area ellipse from the late '90s, they just added an add'l 6 single-axis points (45 to 51) and added an extra 8 cross-types (or 2 more in the case of the D7K) right in the middle column to that '90s Canon design. Previous Nikon bodies have that pathetic 11-pt. AF even as late as the D200/D2H/D2X models, and yet their fanbois still had the gall to claim that the non-area AF ellipse design was "faster and more accurate" than the 45-pt. area AF of the Canons (a familiar refrain, just like the "1.5x DX crop is the future! We don't need FF" prior to 2007) . Nikon still can't figure out how to make cross-type AF points that are not in the middle, nor do they have the equivalent of the triple-precision f/2.8 sensors that Canon has had for a long time.


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## paeataa (Sep 16, 2010)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> There is also something kinda nasty with the D7K design, just look at the pics on DPR. It's too tall and/or narrow, even more so when seen side-by-side with the 60D, D300s. The buttons and overall look & design at the back also screams "cheap", like it's Made in Thailand or Taiwan, woops, it is made in Thailand like all the non-pro Noink bodies .



I don't see why things made in Thailand need to be inferior to or look cheaper than things made somewhere else.


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 16, 2010)

No, that was just a lighthearted remark, relax. Just do a comparison between the bodies you like, first on the pics in the various sites, and later on when the models become available handle it yourself. Like ergonomics, the "feel" of bodies is a highly personal verdict. For me based on the pics the D7K just looks too tall and narrow esp. from the back, that's all. And I never liked the buttons and switchgear on the Nikon, at least on the low- & mid-range models, it just "feels" cheaply made, again, compare it with the equivalent Canons. The 7D switchgear is tops IMHO, beats even the 5D2 like I said. Not surprising since it's the newer model design.


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## ELK (Sep 16, 2010)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> There is also something kinda nasty with the D7K design, just look at the pics on DPR. It's too tall and/or narrow, even more so when seen side-by-side with the 60D, D300s. The buttons and overall look & design at the back also screams "cheap", like it's Made in Thailand or Taiwan, woops, it is made in Thailand like all the non-pro Noink bodies . Just compare it with the buttons and overall quality feel on the 7D rear, IMHO it's the best looking and feeling non-pro body right now, even better than the somewhat-dated but more expensive 5D2 body. I've also found out that the D7K has mag-alloy only on the top&bottom plates, the rest is still plastic & steel.
> 
> The AF sensor, like that on the higher Nikon bodies, is a direct rip-off of the EOS-1/EOS-3 AF area ellipse from the late '90s, they just added an add'l 6 single-axis points (45 to 51) and added an extra 8 cross-types (or 2 more in the case of the D7K) right in the middle column to that '90s Canon design. Previous Nikon bodies have that pathetic 11-pt. AF even as late as the D200/D2H/D2X models, and yet their fanbois still had the gall to claim that the non-area AF ellipse design was "faster and more accurate" than the 45-pt. area AF of the Canons (a familiar refrain, just like the "1.5x DX crop is the future! We don't need FF" prior to 2007) . Nikon still can't figure out how to make cross-type AF points that are not in the middle, nor do they have the equivalent of the triple-precision f/2.8 sensors that Canon has had for a long time.



Very convincing speech!


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## Jan (Sep 17, 2010)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> No, that was just a lighthearted remark, relax. Just do a comparison between the bodies you like, first on the pics in the various sites, and later on when the models become available handle it yourself. Like ergonomics, the "feel" of bodies is a highly personal verdict. For me based on the pics the D7K just looks too tall and narrow esp. from the back, that's all. And I never liked the buttons and switchgear on the Nikon, at least on the low- & mid-range models, it just "feels" cheaply made, again, compare it with the equivalent Canons. The 7D switchgear is tops IMHO, beats even the 5D2 like I said. Not surprising since it's the newer model design.


I think the D7000 design is pretty cool. Nikon always tends to have more bottons and wheels and other stuff for direct acces to camera control. And thats how the cameras look like.
I like it. But obviously this is very subjective.


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## kubelik (Sep 17, 2010)

I'm with Jan, I think Nikon's smaller bodies are actually pretty well proportioned and fairly attractive. the larger bodies look pretty ugly, however, in comparison with Canon's smoother design vocabulary. sony's bodies are ugly as anything but their lenses are cool in a modernist sort of fashion

in the end, the aesthetics are really irrelevant in terms of what the camera can do.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 17, 2010)

kubelik said:


> I'm with Jan, I think Nikon's smaller bodies are actually pretty well proportioned and fairly attractive. the larger bodies look pretty ugly, however, in comparison with Canon's smoother design vocabulary. sony's bodies are ugly as anything but their lenses are cool in a modernist sort of fashion
> 
> in the end, the aesthetics are really irrelevant in terms of what the camera can do.



Yes, aesthetics are irrelevant - but ergonomics are quite relevant. One reason I went with Canon for my initial dSLR purchase was the 'feel' of the camera in my hands.

Oh, and I just hated that red chevron on the front.


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## awinphoto (Sep 17, 2010)

When the bodys are released, go to your local camera store... try both out... Look at the lenses, flashes, cameras... see how they fit in your hand... take some pictures on a card... take them home (the card) and do your pixel peeping... sleep on it, and then make ur decision... then go shop online and get them for hundreds cheaper than the local shop, haha.


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## wuschba (Sep 17, 2010)

Altough the 60D seems not to be really available yet, the price in europe dropped from 1.200â‚¬ to about 1050â‚¬. The 7D is now at 1.200â‚¬. So I guess I will go to my local shop and take both in my hands - but only 150â‚¬ more for a 7D seems to be very attractive now if the 60D doesn't do a huge drop - because reinvesting in new batteries and sd-cards will be a thing you have to add to the price of the 60D if updating from a xxD.

I guess since I need some new lenses as well, I will Nikon give a chance here as well. I'm disappointed from Canon as well with the 60D, perhaps because the xxD is a kind of brand for a certain kind/quality/consistence of camera amd equipment: I knew I could have bought every xxD since my first (10D) without even thinking about another modell or Nikon, and wouldn't be disappointed - even if it's just that I can reuse all the stuff like batteries you spent a lot of extra-money on.
Now Canon didn't fullfill this expectations this time and I kind of feel abandoned by a company we all spend a lot or money on. Of course this is subjective and of course I could buy a 7D - but it leaves a kind of bad taste here. It's a pity no one from Canon comes here and talks to us - other companies do search the contact to their customers in the www.

Are already test-images available for the D7000 to compare them with 7D and 60D?


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## awinphoto (Sep 17, 2010)

wuschba said:


> Altough the 60D seems not to be really available yet, the price in europe dropped from 1.200â‚¬ to about 1050â‚¬. The 7D is now at 1.200â‚¬. So I guess I will go to my local shop and take both in my hands - but only 150â‚¬ more for a 7D seems to be very attractive now if the 60D doesn't do a huge drop - because reinvesting in new batteries and sd-cards will be a thing you have to add to the price of the 60D if updating from a xxD.
> 
> I guess since I need some new lenses as well, I will Nikon give a chance here as well. I'm disappointed from Canon as well with the 60D, perhaps because the xxD is a kind of brand for a certain kind/quality/consistence of camera amd equipment: I knew I could have bought every xxD since my first (10D) without even thinking about another modell or Nikon, and wouldn't be disappointed - even if it's just that I can reuse all the stuff like batteries you spent a lot of extra-money on.
> Now Canon didn't fullfill this expectations this time and I kind of feel abandoned by a company we all spend a lot or money on. Of course this is subjective and of course I could buy a 7D - but it leaves a kind of bad taste here. It's a pity no one from Canon comes here and talks to us - other companies do search the contact to their customers in the www.
> ...



Canon does gauge their customers, however they gauge the CPS customers who are their top tiers... You can also sign up for updates through their website and every blue moon they also send survey emails out... You can also shoot them an email through their website... There are ways to get your opinions out there, you just need to look for them.


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## martijn (Sep 17, 2010)

awinphoto said:


> Canon does gauge their customers



...for a minute or so I was thinking you got the spelling of 'gauge' wrong... ;D


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## studio1972 (Sep 17, 2010)

paeataa said:


> I'm totally new to DSLRs and deciding between Canon 60D and Nikon D7000. Either of those will be my first DSLR -- a huge jump from Canon IS S3 series. Though I really love my Canon IS S3, it's time to upgrade and seriously learn to take great photos.
> 
> I love the articulated screen of Canon 60D, but it seems D7000 has a lot more to offer. And it seems there is a big disappointment among Canon lovers on the 60D. I can't decide which one would be better for my $1500 budget (camera + lens(es)).
> 
> ...



With a $1500 budget I would think about getting a cheaper body and better lenses, maybe a prime or two?


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## Inst (Sep 18, 2010)

How long are you planning to keep your camera? How many lenses are you going to buy?

For the time being, for the budget given, the D7000 will probably serve your needs better. Even if Canon produces a new body, say, a 7D2 or 65D in short succession to the D7000, on average you can expect them to equal, not surpass, the D7000 in high ISO performance.

Paradoxically, I don't think the average D7000 or 60D user will need to upgrade every few years, despite the frequent product updates. Upgrading every product cycle means that in 2 years you've spent enough money to buy a D700 or 5D2, both of which have been 2 stops ahead of the 1 grand range cameras for most of their release history and are now 1 stop ahead of the D7000.


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## paeataa (Sep 18, 2010)

Inst said:


> How long are you planning to keep your camera? How many lenses are you going to buy?
> 
> For the time being, for the budget given, the D7000 will probably serve your needs better. Even if Canon produces a new body, say, a 7D2 or 65D in short succession to the D7000, on average you can expect them to equal, not surpass, the D7000 in high ISO performance.
> 
> Paradoxically, I don't think the average D7000 or 60D user will need to upgrade every few years, despite the frequent product updates. Upgrading every product cycle means that in 2 years you've spent enough money to buy a D700 or 5D2, both of which have been 2 stops ahead of the 1 grand range cameras for most of their release history and are now 1 stop ahead of the D7000.



I plan to keep the camera for at least 4-5 years or as long as I can. I want to upgrade from my P&S camera to a DSLR and to seriously learn how to take great photos. My current one (Canon IS S3) is almost 4 years old and I still love it.

My budget is now around $1500-$2000, which I plan to spend on a good camera (with video shooting feature) plus only 1-2 lenses.

Right now I'm leaning toward the Nikon D7000 as its features look promising and will allow me to learn almost everything I need to know about photography. As for the lenses, I'm thinking about 18-135 or 18-200 instead of the kit lens (I want some telephoto), and probably something for the portrait shots. (35 or 50mm/f1.8???). Within my tight little budget, I might be able to only get one lens at the moment.


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## ppastoris (Sep 18, 2010)

With a limited budget I would personally compromise a bit on a camera body rather than on lenses. Unless you really need video or going to use predictive autofocus a lot (e.g. for sports) I would recommend getting otherwise excellent Canon 1000D/Rebel XS or 450D/Rebel XSi (I'd go for this one simply because of the more precise central AF point) and their very decent 18-55 kit lens. Add one prime on top of that (Canon 50/1.8 for $100, Canon 35/2 for $250, or Sigma 30/1.4) and you have a very good and an inexpensive set to start learning. Eventually you'll have a much better idea what lenses or body you need next than you might have now (at least that's how I felt).

Of course, if you want to spend money right now, then I'd recommend getting a nice lens in addition to the kit that I mentioned above: Canon 10-22 or Sigma 8-16 for landscapes, Canon 17-55/2.8 if you don't know exactly what you'll photograph , or Canon 15-85/3.5-5.6 if you will take pictures with large depth of field in decent light. The above mentioned zoom lenses are all EF-S, meaning you won't be able to use them on a full-frame body in future. In case you plan to upgrade you could consider getting a 24-105L that you can use as a moderate telephoto and a portrait lens on a crop body and as a "normal" zoom on a full-frame in future.


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## Inst (Sep 19, 2010)

Nikon has the excellent and cheap 35/1.8, which gives you a normal prime with small DOF for DX crops, Canon lacks an equivalent, you'd have to fork over more for a 28/2.8 EF prime, which is poor wide open and has a smaller aperture, resulting in less DOF and longer minimum shutter times. Canon's 55-250mm I think is better than Nikon's 55-200mm for the simple reason of giving you longer reach than Nikon, which is further limited by its 1.5x crop factor anyways.

For your budget, I still advise you to go for Nikon. Canon has been performing poorly in competition with Nikon since 2007, when the D3 was launched. That camera significantly outperformed Canon's counterpart 1Ds3, and for less cost as well. It's been more than 2 years since that date, but Canon still hasn't retaken the lead, so between now and the end of your camera lifespan you'll probably be happier with a D7000 than a Canon counterpart.


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## Peerke (Sep 19, 2010)

Funny that people want to jump sides just because of the release of 2 camera's.

One thing is obvious to me. Both Canon and Nikon are pricing these new bodies too high if they are to be considered as the successor of the 50D and D90.

Here in the Netherlands prices are:

50D : â‚¬ 689,- (= US $ 899.-)
60D : â‚¬ 1025,- (= US $ 1337.-)

D90 : â‚¬ 629.- (= US $ 820.-)
D7000 : â‚¬ 1189,- (= US $ 1551.-)

7D : â‚¬ 1199,- (= US $ 1564.-)


Obvious which is the best buy at this moment if you want to spend 1000 - 1200 Euro's today. For sure it won't be the new ones 8).


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## StepBack (Sep 19, 2010)

Too many expected miracles from Canon and whined. A real turn off. Then there are super dudes with electron microscopes declaring DxO the chief arbitrator. Nikon came up with a catch up which is impressive compared to the D90 which for all its IQ value had really become a vintage model. Canon is rolling along. Any more in the 60D and they'd have skipped over the 7D. Both sides priced their models to the market. If u can get a better pic with 39 points more power to u and when u start using ISO in the tens of thousands you better have a twenty thousand dollar lens packed in your backpack. No there's less of a difference here than meets the eye. The mag alloy body is just more weight for people who like to hand hold rather than sit with a tripod and a beer. It's the photographer not the camera. Both C and N need to lower their margins and come up with more lenses with lower prices which have 2.8 and IS/VR.


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## Inst (Sep 19, 2010)

Many 7D users are photojournalists who need a portable and light camera with long reach for low weight. The 7D fills that billing, no matter how good the low-light performance is on the 60D. If they had released a 60D with the same high ISO performance as Nikon, it would have cannibalized the 7D to some extent, but the difference in auto-focus would mean that there would still remain a market for the 7D. The same applies to the D300s and the D7000, except the D7000 actually did it, the D300s AF isn't all that better than the D7000 AF, and the D300s has less MP than the D7000, meaning that it has poorer quality at low ISOs, so the D300s is more disadvantaged by the D7000 than the 7D would be by an improved 60D.

Canon probably doesn't have the technology to meet Nikon on this footing, as even the 1D4 has the same high ISO performance, upsized for sensor size, as the 5D2. The D3S is one stop better in this regard.


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## Rocky (Sep 19, 2010)

paeataa said:


> My budget is now around $1500-$2000, which I plan to spend on a good camera (with video shooting feature) plus only 1-2 lenses.
> 
> Right now I'm leaning toward the Nikon D7000 as its features look promising and will allow me to learn almost everything I need to know about photography. As for the lenses, I'm thinking about 18-135 or 18-200 instead of the kit lens (I want some telephoto), and probably something for the portrait shots. (35 or 50mm/f1.8???). Within my tight little budget, I might be able to only get one lens at the moment.



A friendly advice from a second hand experience. I have a friend shooting video with the T2i with the kit lens. he told me that the noise from the focusing of the lens is loud and can overtake the conversation. So if you are aiming at video, you need lens with both USM and IS. For me the ideal lens from Canon for video on APS-C camera is 17-55mm f2.8 with both USM and IS. It will be about US$1100. Speaking of USM. Please make sure that you got the RING USM, not Micro USM.


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## Jon Gilchrist (Sep 19, 2010)

Rocky said:


> A friendly advice from a second hand experience. I have a friend shooting video with the T2i with the kit lens. he told me that the noise from the focusing of the lens is loud and can overtake the conversation. So if you are aiming at video, you need lens with both USM and IS. For me the ideal lens from Canon for video on APS-C camera is 17-55mm f2.8 with both USM and IS. It will be about US$1100. Speaking of USM. Please make sure that you got the RING USM, not Micro USM.



If you're considering any kind of reasonably serious video, get yourself an external microphone like the Rode Videomic.


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## unfocused (Sep 19, 2010)

I decided to take the $2,000 limit challenge. Here is what I came up with.

Canon T2i w/kit lens: $900
Canon 55-250mm EF-S zoom: $230
Vivitar DF383 Strobe: $130
Protective Filters/Cards/Camera Bag: $300

This leaves you with about $440 to spend. Depending on what your priorities are, some choices:

Decent Tripod: $150
Photoflex umbrella, light stand and flash shoe mount: $150
External Microphone for video (Shoe Mount Boom) and Hood loupe for viewing: $200-$300
Lens upgrades: With your budget, you could switch out the kit lens for the Tamron 17-50 VC f2.8 ($549) or the telephoto for the Tamron 70-300mm VC ($400)

Explanations/Rationale:

If you are on a budget, don't buy any newly released camera. It's like buying a new car â€“ you will pay a premium for the latest model and on your budget, you can't afford to waste money. Because you want to keep the camera for several years, I debated between the T2i and the 7D. I ultimately decided to recommend the T2i because I just don't think the 7D fits your price range. Lots of complaining here about the 60D, but in my opinion no other manufacturer can touch the 7D or the T2i in their respective price points, so that's why I recommend them.

I was hesitant to recommend a kit lens, but with the $100 price differential between body only and kit lens, and since you don't already own any lenses, it's hard to pass up the kit lens. The 55-250mm zoom is one of the best bargains Canon makes (sure, it's plastic-y) but it is sharp and has IS. I put a premium on sharpness (a soft lens is worthless in my opinion), and am willing to put up with the light weight and plastic given how well the lens performs for its price.

You will soon want an external flash, especially if you want to try portraits. The Vivitar is a dedicated flash, so it uses the Canon TTL exposure system. More importantly though, it has a built in slave, so you can trigger it off camera with your built-in flash.

You will need something to carry this all in and a shoulder bag is your best buy and most flexible option. You'll also want a card with lots of memory and speed and you need some Daylight or UV filters to protect the front elements of your lenses. These aren't optional purchases, but they are easy to forget about when adding up the dollars.

Finally, some choices to make:

Soon you will want a good, solid tripod. Expect to spend at least $100 to $150 (of course you can spend more);

If you are interested in portraits, an umbrella, light stand and mount will enable you to set up the strobe off camera, and trigger it with your built-in flash. This simple set up will yield very nice, flattering portraits and help you learn lighting;

You mentioned video. If you get into video, you will need an external microphone and some type of hood loupe to view your screen. Of course, you can spend tons more on follow-focus, fluid heads for the tripod, etc. etc. but from what I can tell, these two items are pretty much essential (full disclosure, I don't shoot video)

Finally, you may not like my lens choices, and want to switch them out. I've listed a couple alternatives that could work within your budget. I do not own these lenses, so can't vouch for their sharpness or quality. But I am intrigued by the new 70-300mm which Tamron is marketing as "the sharpest ever." Again, I want my lenses sharp, so that interested me. 

Finally, read reviews before buying. Not just in the photo press but on-line. Check out the Adorama customer reviews for products you are considering, as well as similar reviews on BestBuy.Com and other sellers' sites. These are from actual users and will give you a better feel than the limited audience that reads this forum.

Now, a word to my fellow forum readers. I hope you'll rise to the challenge and put together your own $2,000 package for this upgrader. If you can do a better job or have constructive recommendations that fit within the confines he or she has provided us, have at it. I'm not particularly interested in reading nitpicking comments from trolls, but if that's your thing, so be it.


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## Rocky (Sep 19, 2010)

unfocused said:


> I
> Now, a word to my fellow forum readers. I hope you'll rise to the challenge and put together your own $2,000 package for this upgrader. If you can do a better job or have constructive recommendations that fit within the confines he or she has provided us, have at it. I'm not particularly interested in reading nitpicking comments from trolls, but if that's your thing, so be it.


May I add that the people that will rise to this challenge should have also used the DSLR for video (hopefully extensive and speak from their own experience.


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## Rocky (Sep 20, 2010)

unfocused said:


> I decided to take the $2,000 limit challenge. Here is what I came up with.
> 
> Canon T2i w/kit lens: $900
> Canon 55-250mm EF-S zoom: $230
> ...



Personally, I would not recommend this lens for a one lens outfit. 1. 55mm for a ASP-C camera becomes 88mm focal length. The owner will be using tele-zoom lens all the time. What happen when group shots, scenery shot are required. 2. That is the kit lens that my friend is complaining about the noise in focusing that will over power the conversation. 2. Most of the people that use the DSLR for video are mainly for family affair, parties etc. It will require a wide angle lens of minimum of 35mm equivalent focal length.


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## unfocused (Sep 20, 2010)

> 55mm for a ASP-C camera becomes 88mm focal length. The owner will be using tele-zoom lens all the time. What happen when group shots, scenery shot are required.



I guess I should have clarified that I meant the T2i with the 18-55 Kit lens. Plus the 55-250 IS EF-S. T2i with kit lens is $900. Body only $800. For a person new to SLRs, the $100 extra for the kit lens is hard to pass up, although it is certainly not ideal. The 55-250 EF-S is another $230. These are compromises and I've tried to leave enough room in the budget to upgrade lenses, if that is what he or she wants to do.


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## Inst (Sep 20, 2010)

Great comments here.

I am not a Nikon shooter, nor am I a pro at photography. I favor Nikon right now because I believe Nikon offers better value at the 1.1k price, based on the reported features of the D7000 and its high ISO performance.

That said, others who are more experienced than I am have offered excellent Canon sets, and if you're willing to put up with the inferior body, buy their package. I've used both the 18-55mm and 55-250mm and they seem to be both excellent for the price.


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## davidonformosa (Sep 20, 2010)

StepBack said:


> Both C and N need to lower their margins and come up with more lenses with lower prices which have 2.8 and IS/VR.



I'm sure everybody would love cheaper lenses, but there is more profit in camera bodies that get replaced every two or three years rather than lenses which last longer and don't date as rapidly.


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## kubelik (Sep 20, 2010)

I'm actually going to take a different tack than others commonly do and suggest that, when you're just starting off, buy cheap lenses as well as a cheap camera body.

if you shell out for expensive Canon lenses, you'll probably end up with 2 lenses in your pocket by the time you're done purchasing. you may well find out very quickly that these 2 lenses don't cover the range you would actually enjoy shooting at.

if you shell out for third party lenses (Sigma, Tamron, Tokina), you can get probably 3 or 4 lenses in your arsenal, through which you can explore lots of different types of photography and figure out where your real interest lies.

I'm not saying the traditional "lens-first" approach doesn't make sense, I'm just saying theres other ways of approaching gear acquisition. if you plan on staying APS-C forever, buying nice EF-S glass makes sense, but who knows? if you go full frame, you'll wish you'd just shelled out for a sigma 10-20 over the canon 10-22 since you'll be replacing it with a 16-35 or 17-40 anyway.


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 20, 2010)

Amazon has a DSLR Best Seller List. http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/3017941?ie=UTF8&ref_=pd_ts_e_nav that is updated every hour.

When I posted this the Nikon D7000 body was number 1 and the Canon 60D body was number 18 and dropping.

Looks like the market has spoken and it appears that Canon has screwed the pooch ... big time.


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## Grendel (Sep 20, 2010)

Ah yes, the same list that has the Rebel XSi in place 4... Sorry, but w/o knowing what the criteria for the list positioning are it's totally worthless. Esp. for cameras that are not available.


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 20, 2010)

Grendel said:


> Ah yes, the same list that has the Rebel XSi in place 4... Sorry, but w/o knowing what the criteria for the list positioning are it's totally worthless. Esp. for cameras that are not available.


*
"Bestsellers in Digital SLRs
Any Category > Electronics > Camera & Photo > Digital Cameras > Digital SLRs (Updated hourly)"
*
Do you think that the list represents *Amazon DSLR Sales*??? More sales the higher their position, i.e. #1 represents more sales than #2.

Sales on Amazon show what people are buying from Amazon. Some people buy because of low price and other people buy because of wanted features. The Rebel XSi is in 4th place because people think that it is a good camera for the price.

Did you ever hear of pre-order for cameras not yet released for sale???

"Price:	$1,199.00 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping. Details
This item has not yet been released.
You may pre-order it now and we will deliver it to you when it arrives.
Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available."


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## papa-razzi (Sep 21, 2010)

I purchased an XSi 2 years ago. In just 2 years I have seen the T1i and the T2i come out. Camara bodies evolve quickly - They are just like computers or cell phones. If you really get into it and get hooked like most of us, you will be buying a new camera body before your 4-5 year time frame. Likely in 2 or 3 years. And you will be buying lenses. 

Since you are new to DSLR like I was, your first DSLR is a learning tool. I still have my 18-55 kit lens and a 55-250 lens I purchased about 9 months after I bought the XSi. Over the last two years I have also rented a T2i and a few expensive lenses to give them a try. (24-70 f/2.8L, EF-S 17-55 f/2.8, 24-105 f/4L). I now know enough about how I take pictures and what I want in a camera where I am comfortable in spending more money. I plan to buy a 7D shortly.

I take lots of pictures of my kids in indoor sports, in small, poorly lit school gyms. The 7D has great autofocus and fast fps, and decent ISO performance. I also figured out I can do better with very fast lenses if I get primes, like the 85 f/1.8.

If you are doing video, I would get the T2i as a kit with the EF-S 18-135 for $1100 and you should use that lense 90% of the time. Get the EF 50 f/1.8 so you can learn about depth of field and low light photos - it is $100. If you want a telephoto option, add a 55-250 for $250. Finally, get Photoshop Elements. Use all this for a year, have fun and learn. I promise you will not be dissapointed with this, and a year later you can sell the lot and buy something more taylored to how you take pictures - or keep it and build upon it.


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## Daviii (Sep 21, 2010)

It's been a while since Canon has started to create awesome wideangle lenses, at least in a consumer level. Canon excels with 17-55 f2.8 and 15-85 models, which are better than competition.

For the pro market there's no such 14-24 from canon yet which even scratch the nikkor performance, and 24-70 is quite dated, that's obvious though. But if such lenses would appear, if a 14-24 and 24-70 were announced, Canon lens lineup would be wider, better and more complete than nikkon's.

Nevertheless, 15-85 should be quite a dealbreaker for most of the quality minded customers. It's basically the perfect all-around lens for APS-C. Better than nikkon's 16-85.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 21, 2010)

Daviii said:


> Nevertheless, 15-85 should be quite a dealbreaker for most of the quality minded customers. It's basically the perfect all-around lens for APS-C. Better than nikkon's 16-85.



Except for that variable (= slow) aperture. A 15-85mm f/4 would be far preferable...sure, it would be more expensive and heavier than the current variable aperture model, but to me it would make more sense - 17-55/2.8 and 15-85/4 for APS-C, analogous to 24-70/2.8 and 24-105/4 for FF.


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## urkel (Sep 24, 2010)

After Pre-ordering a 60D the day it got released, I'm now one of the 60D "haters" after playing with one.

I had a Nikon D90 2 years ago and moved to "sharing" my brothers Canon 7D for much longer than he would like then I was now shopping for one of my own. The 7D was out of my budget so the 60D seemed perfect, but after using one for a few hours then I have to say I'm very disappointed (not to mention sad because I had very high hopes). Here are my PERSONAL opinions and I hope I don't offend anyone with it.

Negatives: 
- 9Point autofocus
- New D-Pad instead of the joystick
- Smaller top screen
- Price
- Video Mode is on Control Wheel now (not dedicated button like 7D)
- Video has no manual control (??? 7D was intuitive. We couldn't figure it out w/ 60D since we forgot manual)
- Very plasticky body. Much better than the toy-like rebel feel, but definitely not a tank like the 5D/7D.

Positives:
- Articulating screen. For artistic shots, video should be manually focused whether it has autofocus or not.
- Solid Body. It may not have a "Pro" feel to it, but if this is the new low end then it feels better than the Rebels

So there you go. I really wanted to like the 60D and even have my preorder still in effect (backordered) but most likely I'm cancelling it, selling my lenses and switching back to Nikon. The D7000 isn't my perfect camera either (no articulating screen, 60fps, GPS) but in terms of value it's great so I wont feel horrible about switching... unless Canon comes out with a micro four-thirds first and makes me question whether selling my lenses was a bad move.


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 24, 2010)

urkel said:


> Here are my PERSONAL opinions and I hope I don't offend anyone with it.


I hope not too...but looking at your list, are those points in comparison to the 7D, or do some of them apply to the D7000?



> - 9Point autofocus


How did this affect your shooting?


> - Price


Compared to the D7000 many people have this same problem. Compared to the 7D, it stacks up nicely enough.


> - Video Mode is on Control Wheel now (not dedicated button like 7D)


Same as the Rebels. What's troubling me is the talk about needing to press a button to change a mode...who needed that?


> - Video has no manual control (??? 7D was intuitive. We couldn't figure it out w/ 60D since we forgot manual)


I've read that there is manual control for the video, but I haven't seen it explained in-depth. I would agree it's a point in favor of the 7D that manual control is intuitive.


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## unexposure (Sep 24, 2010)

urkel said:


> - Video has no manual control (??? 7D was intuitive. We couldn't figure it out w/ 60D since we forgot manual)


First Menu to the left, First entry. "Manual Exposure". Shouldn't be too hard to find out, even if you don't have a manual...


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 24, 2010)

Heck, with a 2 grand budget just buy the cheapest body you can tolerate and spend the rest on lenses. No use wasting a $1700 body with a $300 POS lens.


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 24, 2010)

BTW, as of this hour, that Amazon bestseller list shows the T1i/500D on the top spot . 6 of the Top 10 are Canons, two of which are 7Ds (1 body only, 1 w/ the 28-135 zoom).


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 24, 2010)

Is dat 7Ds the new high-resolution 7D from the split line we've all been waiting for? Cool.

T1i on top, well, maybe if they're selling at $450 like on eBay (used, as I've been seeing) I could believe it! It's really more like $699 for the kit, isn't it?


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 24, 2010)

7Ds plural of 7D, as in two entries for the 7D, as you would have understood if you read the part in "()". And, no, the T1i/500D costs $678.89 new, $579.99 used.


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## Osiris30 (Sep 24, 2010)

urkel said:


> After Pre-ordering a 60D the day it got released, I'm now one of the 60D "haters" after playing with one.
> 
> I had a Nikon D90 2 years ago and moved to "sharing" my brothers Canon 7D for much longer than he would like then I was now shopping for one of my own. The 7D was out of my budget so the 60D seemed perfect, but after using one for a few hours then I have to say I'm very disappointed (not to mention sad because I had very high hopes). Here are my PERSONAL opinions and I hope I don't offend anyone with it.
> 
> ...



What do you shoot? Given the spread of those 9 cross-type sensors I haven't found a need for more. Unless you're shooting sports or birds in flight it's fine. If you *are* shoot sports or birds in flight there is *one* choice for a Canon APS-C body and it's called the 7D and has been available forever.



urkel said:


> - New D-Pad instead of the joystick



I thought the same, until I used it for about 2 days, and then my body relearned the new layout. Now I find it's easier than the joystick on other xx/xDs.



urkel said:


> - Smaller top screen



That's enough to make you jump brands? It's big enough to see everything you need if your eye sight is good enough to be using a camera in the first place. The button placement on the top is also streamlined and lines up with the LCD. Good move.



urkel said:


> - Price



So don't order it the day it comes out... Wait a couple of months for the Thanksgiving/Christmas discount.



urkel said:


> - Video Mode is on Control Wheel now (not dedicated button like 7D)



A pain if you're mess with video, but a non-starter if you doing real video work with the camera.



urkel said:


> - Video has no manual control (??? 7D was intuitive. We couldn't figure it out w/ 60D since we forgot manual)



You didn't look very hard then, it's all there. Just like the 7D.



urkel said:


> - Very plasticky body. Much better than the toy-like rebel feel, but definitely not a tank like the 5D/7D.



Maybe.. maybe not. The new grip is better IMHO and the body is well balanced. I can also tell you it's pretty robust, mine has been abused a few times *already* (I'm mean to my gear LOL)



urkel said:


> Positives:
> - Articulating screen. For artistic shots, video should be manually focused whether it has autofocus or not.



Video should always be MFed if you aren't shooting your kids birthday  It's also nice it flips around and protects the screen.



urkel said:


> - Solid Body. It may not have a "Pro" feel to it, but if this is the new low end then it feels better than the Rebels



The T2i is the new low end (well technically the T1i is).



urkel said:


> So there you go. I really wanted to like the 60D and even have my preorder still in effect (backordered) but most likely I'm cancelling it, selling my lenses and switching back to Nikon. The D7000 isn't my perfect camera either (no articulating screen, 60fps, GPS) but in terms of value it's great so I wont feel horrible about switching... unless Canon comes out with a micro four-thirds first and makes me question whether selling my lenses was a bad move.



The D7000 also hasn't been reviewed yet and the IQ in more than a few sample shots looks a bit dodgy. And Canon won't do m4/3. Not sure why you would a smaller sensor anyway. Smaller sensor = more issues with IQ. How long did you spend with the 60D before deciding you didn't like it. It sounds like it wasn't very long at all. Use one for a day or two and (again unless you shoot sports or BIF) and I think 90% of your gripes will become non-issues.

Osiris


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## urkel (Sep 24, 2010)

Edwin Herdman said:


> urkel said:
> 
> 
> > Here are my PERSONAL opinions and I hope I don't offend anyone with it.
> ...


Oh, im just griping about everything. This is part of the decision process for me. 

Anyway, it looks like I may be sticking with Canon for another more generation. As much as I'm "willing" to switch, after doing the math on what it will cost to get me the equivalent Nikon setup then I'll stick with my more affordable Canon lenses. 


Nikon 24-70 f2.8 - $1700 new / $1500 used
Nikon 50mm f1.4 - $425 new / $375 used
Nikon NB600 - $215 new

Since I'm more of a poser than a Pro then I'm just going to stick with the lenses I got and get a 60D. It's not perfect, but an articulating screen on a DSLR is something that I feel may be underhyped. 

BTW. One thing to note about the 60D's shortcomings is that several of these "missing features" are firmware fixable. So as much as people hate complainers, whining does serve a purpose here because 60D vs D7000 comparisons can swing back to Canon's favor if they unlock some of the stuff they intentionally crippled.

EDIT:
Got to check out the 60D again at Best Buy and found two nice things that I missed.
1) As someone stated earlier, manual control in Video is just a menu click away 
2) ISO limiting like on Canon. It's something I loved about Nikon and was missing on the 7D. But here it is.


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## DarStone (Sep 25, 2010)

This is an interesting post with a lot of varying opinions, but I'd say you should really try both camera's hands on before making a choice. If you purely go by spec's the new Nikon might seem like the clear winner, but feature don't always make for a great product. 

I admit I was a bit disappointed with the announced spec's of the 60D, but I have invested in canon for a few years now (meaning I have lenses and such) so I thought I'd give the 60D a try. I recieved it this Wednesday and I have to say it's a really nice camera, it's solidly built even though it's not like my 7D it's not a Rebel either. The Camera is very well balanced even with heavy lenses, and feels really good in hand. It's also a very accurate camera, I shot a wedding with it yesterday and must say I'm really impressed with the way it handled and the pictures I got even in lowlight. It seems like Canon tweaked the AF system from the 40D and 50D I've shot both and the 60D is a lot better, it's actually pretty close to the 7D, and maybe a little brighter.

Anyway as I said earlier the only real way to know which one is right for you is to go play with them both, and what ever you decide you'll have a great camera and a real upgrade from your S3


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## paeataa (Sep 25, 2010)

DarStone said:


> This is an interesting post with a lot of varying opinions, but I'd say you should really try both camera's hands on before making a choice. If you purely go by spec's the new Nikon might seem like the clear winner, but feature don't always make for a great product.
> 
> I admit I was a bit disappointed with the announced spec's of the 60D, but I have invested in canon for a few years now (meaning I have lenses and such) so I thought I'd give the 60D a try. I recieved it this Wednesday and I have to say it's a really nice camera, it's solidly built even though it's not like my 7D it's not a Rebel either. The Camera is very well balanced even with heavy lenses, and feels really good in hand. It's also a very accurate camera, I shot a wedding with it yesterday and must say I'm really impressed with the way it handled and the pictures I got even in lowlight. It seems like Canon tweaked the AF system from the 40D and 50D I've shot both and the 60D is a lot better, it's actually pretty close to the 7D, and maybe a little brighter.
> 
> Anyway as I said earlier the only real way to know which one is right for you is to go play with them both, and what ever you decide you'll have a great camera and a real upgrade from your S3



Thanks! That's what I planned to do too. I'm waiting until both 60D and D7000 are available at camera shops so that I can try them out.

Would you be willing to share some photos taken with your 60D with us to see how the camera produces?


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## DarStone (Sep 25, 2010)

Okay here is a link to some quick reference shots taken with the 60D, nothing special I usually shoot leaves and ropes to get an idea of AF Accuracy and Clarity, plus I shot these with a Nifty Fifty 50mm 1.8 Canon Lens, and a Sigma 50-200mm HSM OS lens ($159.00 retail) to give you an idea of what options you might start off with.

http://picasaweb.google.com/dbharris3/Canon60DQuickReferenceShots#


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## StepBack (Sep 27, 2010)

I'm not going to repeat the objections. But I will add that Canon is putting to rest the DIGIC 4. So for new buyers to this level of camera it may not be so important whether which camera has more AF points or which is qualitatively better based on specs alone. What Canon may be doing is saying to present midrange owners that the next gen of FF and prosumers will have a new processor. And that's where the difference comes in. The AF, metering and chip are what makes the thing go. You don't go anywhere w/o the engine. And no one is able to scientifically compare the chips because they don't have the equipment. The test shots I've seen are just for arguments sake. The argument is moot.


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## urkel (Sep 27, 2010)

StepBack said:


> The AF, metering and chip are what makes the thing go. You don't go anywhere w/o the engine. And no one is able to scientifically compare the chips because they don't have the equipment. The test shots I've seen are just for arguments sake. The argument is moot.


And whats the argument?


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## anthony11 (Sep 27, 2010)

> Oh, im just griping about everything. This is part of the decision process for me.



Been there, still doing that 



> Anyway, it looks like I may be sticking with Canon for another more generation. As much as I'm "willing" to switch, after doing the math on what it will cost to get me the equivalent Nikon setup then I'll stick with my more affordable Canon lenses.
> Nikon 24-70 f2.8 - $1700 new / $1500 used
> Nikon 50mm f1.4 - $425 new / $375 used


Hrrm, $350-ish (21%) more for the 24-70, $75 more for the 50. Annoying, but adding up the percentage difference of a whole setup, I'm not so sure that the gap is a gating factor any more. Before Canon's 20% yen/dollar markup it was bigger.



> BTW. One thing to note about the 60D's shortcomings is that several of these "missing features" are firmware fixable. So as much as people hate complainers, whining does serve a purpose here because 60D vs D7000 comparisons can swing back to Canon's favor if they unlock some of the stuff they intentionally crippled.



In theory, yeah, but yet the 5D2 still lacks a wider EC range than +/- 2 stops, lacks 5-exposure bracketing, lacks aperture bracketing. Those are all straightforward to code, yet Canon can't be bothered.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 28, 2010)

dilbert said:


> You can't just "add" +/-1 EV because things like the LCD screen on top and electronic display inside the viewfinder have +2..-2 hard coded into the device.



True. But that wouldn't stop them from a firmware change to add my favorite new feature that's present in the T2i and 60D (and even in my PowerShot S95!), but not in the 7D...the ability to specify a maximum for Auto ISO.


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## anthony11 (Sep 28, 2010)

> The 5-shot thing is probably because most people with the 5D2 don't need/use bracketing because they prefer to "get the shot in one."


It's mainly championed by the HDR crowd.


> You can't just "add" +/-1 EV because things like the LCD screen on top and electronic display inside the viewfinder have +2..-2 hard coded into the device.


I could live with it blanking at +/- 3. With bright backgrounds I find that +2 isn't always enough.


> But we don't need 5 exposure bracketing, just the +/-3 ... It's not hard to set the camera to a certain combination of settings and then just turn the dial 2 or 3 notches after every shot.


Sounds like you should be shooting film with all-manual bodies. Turning the dial takes time, and can result in orientation changes. The HDR people really like being able to get five exposures in minimum time, without dicking with the rig in the middle.


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## Osiris30 (Sep 29, 2010)

Have you had a chance to play with high-iso on the 60D... I'm starting to really believe the rumours of a tweaked sensor. I was playing around at 6400 tonight and my mind is literally blown out the back of my skull. 

Either my 60D is the 'golden copy' or Canon really did a few little things no one noticed to their core tech. The AF has been flawless some 4000 shots in now... I can count AF misses on one hand regardless of lens (even the troublesome 50 1.8).. well maybe two hands, but really some of them are most likely my fault for getting sloppy. 

The 6400 iso stuff has a tonality to it that I can't believe (if I didn't see the EXIF and know what I shot it at I would have *sworn* it was 3200 iso tops). Man I can't wait for proper reviews... For all the b*tching, moaning and complaining this is one hell of a little body.



DarStone said:


> Okay here is a link to some quick reference shots taken with the 60D, nothing special I usually shoot leaves and ropes to get an idea of AF Accuracy and Clarity, plus I shot these with a Nifty Fifty 50mm 1.8 Canon Lens, and a Sigma 50-200mm HSM OS lens ($159.00 retail) to give you an idea of what options you might start off with.
> 
> http://picasaweb.google.com/dbharris3/Canon60DQuickReferenceShots#


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## ageha (Sep 29, 2010)

Osiris30 said:


> The 6400 iso stuff has a tonality to it that I can't believe (if I didn't see the EXIF and know what I shot it at I would have *sworn* it was 3200 iso tops). Man I can't wait for proper reviews... For all the b*tching, moaning and complaining this is one hell of a little body.



I can only second that. So far I'm quite impressed too especially after I compared the results to a D700 side by side.


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## unexposure (Sep 29, 2010)

Osiris30 said:


> I'm starting to really believe the rumours of a tweaked sensor....


These aren't Rumors, this is an official Canon-Statement.


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## blufox (Sep 29, 2010)

Good to hear some positive impressions .

I am just waiting for 5dMKII successor, till then let me collect few more lenses. 

Oh did I mention getting a 70-200 f4L IS tomorrow.. yay, bodies can be changed, lenses are the real thing to keep .


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## anthony11 (Sep 29, 2010)

> If you're doing hand-held bracketing for HDR then unless your subject is evenly bright, you've got to shoot in "P" or shutter priority modes


Mind you, I don't shoot HDR (mostly my kinetic toddler), but I would think that Av would be in order for HDR bursts.


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 29, 2010)

dilbert said:


> You don't need 5 shots to do HDR, nor do you need +/-3. On the weekend, someone had me hold their iPhone with HDR software loaded that used 2 photos for HDR. Personally, I find that very very few HDR photos look ok. Some folks like to do HDR with 1 "negative."


I'm really tempted to say from this quote that you're seeing people doing it wrong, but you assume their methodology is right.

There's many different purposes for HDR, let's keep in mind. One is to really blow colors out and exploit the tone mapping, another is to map more tones to a picture to mimic the natural wide dynamic range that you would perceive with your eyes (a lot of the "stunning" HDR photos out there you'd need to let your eyes adjust when viewing in real life - like looking at backlit mesas in a desert scene, with bright opaque clouds behind them).

I've tried pulling extra detail out of single exposures in Canon Digital Photo Pro for single-exposure HDR; it didn't work (for that instance...clouds became clipped). I'm sure that'd work for some cases. That is starting to sound like what I (poorly) understand Ansel Adams's zone method to have been partly about. I think that you can get perfectly acceptable "HDR" photos that look natural with just an extra exposure, if the software is good enough and the scene is right. One for more shadowy parts of the image, another for highlights. I suppose people like midtones too.

For five-shot bursts, I'd start to worry more about moving objects and camera movement. I have found that I've been able to do fairly well handholding even my T1i for three shot bursts with a heavy lens, but I wouldn't want to print the shadow tones too big (and thus the entire image's sharpness gets dragged down by that part of the image, though I suspect sharpness stands out more in highlights than shadows).


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## Osiris30 (Sep 30, 2010)

unexposure said:


> Osiris30 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm starting to really believe the rumours of a tweaked sensor....
> ...



Do you have a link (it would help settle other debates I have elsewhere). TIA.


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## unexposure (Sep 30, 2010)

Osiris30 said:


> Do you have a link (it would help settle other debates I have elsewhere). TIA.


It's stated on the announcement of 60D at heise.de, it's also stated in several Photography-Review-Magazines and it's stated by the press-person of canon who answered my e-mail. ;-)
I have already translated this (in my own words) somewhere in another thread in this forum. Here another Version, what Canon-Helpdesk said (in my own words regarding translation): "The sensor is an improvement over the 550D regarding light-sensivity. It has in addition received the improved filters used in 7D. Considering this, both, noise-behavior and light-sensivity should be improved when compared to 7D or 550D."
But, another thing worth mentioning is, in the german magazine "photo hits" they had reviewed a preprod model of 60D and say, that it has improved noise-behavior and light-sensivity but in exchange comes up with a slightly (pretty much not noticeable) loss in resolution when compared to 7D. Dunno whether it was because of the preproduction model or has another reason.


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## kubelik (Sep 30, 2010)

unexposure ... so basically, Canon's applying even more noise reduction on the sensor ... not unexpected, but still a little disappointing. I'm still waiting for them to turn that corner. that being said, it also sounds like a pixel-peeping thing ... probably won't bother 90% of users


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## Osiris30 (Sep 30, 2010)

Not necessarily NR. Especially if light sensitivity is improved... it could be the AA filter they are talking about as the 550D and 7D could moire sometimes.. I haven't seen any sharpness hit (well nothing meaningful that's for sure.. all 18mp sensors are a bit 'mushy' in comparison to older 10mp sensors).

Osiris




kubelik said:


> unexposure ... so basically, Canon's applying even more noise reduction on the sensor ... not unexpected, but still a little disappointing. I'm still waiting for them to turn that corner. that being said, it also sounds like a pixel-peeping thing ... probably won't bother 90% of users


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## CameraAddict (Oct 1, 2010)

Osiris30 said:


> Have you had a chance to play with high-iso on the 60D... I'm starting to really believe the rumours of a tweaked sensor. I was playing around at 6400 tonight and my mind is literally blown out the back of my skull.
> 
> Either my 60D is the 'golden copy' or Canon really did a few little things no one noticed to their core tech. The AF has been flawless some 4000 shots in now... I can count AF misses on one hand regardless of lens (even the troublesome 50 1.8).. well maybe two hands, but really some of them are most likely my fault for getting sloppy.



LOL, if they tweaked the sensor they'd be telling you, that's for sure. They wouldn't hide such a thing. It would be a marketing ++++. I don't know what camera you came from, but your results DON'T mirror those of Camera Labs, in their comparison of high iso on the 50D and 60D. They found that jpg was better on the 60D because the in-camera jpg processing increased sharpness and contrast, and probably did some noise reduction.

However, when raw shots were taken and processed in the same way, the two cameras were pretty equal.


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## Osiris30 (Oct 1, 2010)

CameraAddict said:


> Osiris30 said:
> 
> 
> > Have you had a chance to play with high-iso on the 60D... I'm starting to really believe the rumours of a tweaked sensor. I was playing around at 6400 tonight and my mind is literally blown out the back of my skull.
> ...



CameraAddict,

I'm going to be honest, based on their test I couldn't tell much of anything the samples were tiny. I can tell you my iso 6400 is definitely usable and then some. I'm not talking luminance noise, but chroma performance. None of that ugly high-iso color weirdness (i.e. shifting, washed out, etc.). There have been things that have been said by Canon people as well regarding the sensor. 

Finally, if they did, they might not want to scream it too loudly.. it would be bad for the 7D.. 

I'm looking to see a few more places run raws and do comparisons with some graphs and charts that I can look at.. ya it's measurbating, but we're talking minor differences really.

Osiris


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## kmyers1us (Oct 3, 2010)

unfocused said:


> Only you can decide this. It depends on what you want out of a camera.
> 
> But, you should definitely NOT decide solely on the basis of one or two minor features on the latest camera models. When you buy an SLR, you are buying into a complete system and you need to consider everything: lenses, flash, accessories, etc., but most especially the lenses. Even if you are just starting out with a single lens, you will eventually want to add to that collection. (And surreptitiously sneak it into the house when your spouse isn't looking. ) Traditionally, Canon has held a slight price advantage over Nikon in lenses, but there are plenty of exceptions.
> 
> ...



I agree that you need to take the total system into consideration.
I am a newcomer to Canon with my new 7d. I had an Olympus system
and stopped investing in it NOT because of the deficiencies in their new E-5,
but because they have essentially halted production on the lens system.

It's all about the lenses and Canon shines here above all others. Also
I like the fact that Canon more accurately describes their lenses. In 
particular I am referring to weather sealing. Its well stated here but
in Nikon its poorly documented.

Also I agree that the camera is a tool but the Photographer is the 
success, BUT you must have the tools you need to accomplish your 
personal goals. Take all things into consideration.


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## Edwin Herdman (Oct 4, 2010)

Osiris30 said:


> Finally, if they did, they might not want to scream it too loudly.. it would be bad for the 7D..


Maybe, maybe not. It may be the case that the sensor changes add up to nicer-looking JPEGs straight out of the camera, but 7D images are meant to be processed from RAW, so any hit to sharpness wouldn't be a good tradeoff.

Wholly speculation, but it could have been intended that the 7D is meant to be used with a more professional workflow in the case the user is really interested in IQ.

I think it's more likely that the 60D is simply a newer product, of course.


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## jouster (Oct 5, 2010)

DarStone said:


> This is an interesting post with a lot of varying opinions, but I'd say you should really try both camera's hands on before making a choice. If you purely go by spec's the new Nikon might seem like the clear winner, but feature don't always make for a great product.
> 
> I admit I was a bit disappointed with the announced spec's of the 60D, but I have invested in canon for a few years now (meaning I have lenses and such) so I thought I'd give the 60D a try. I recieved it this Wednesday and I have to say it's a really nice camera, it's solidly built even though it's not like my 7D it's not a Rebel either. The Camera is very well balanced even with heavy lenses, and feels really good in hand. It's also a very accurate camera, I shot a wedding with it yesterday and must say I'm really impressed with the way it handled and the pictures I got even in lowlight. It seems like Canon tweaked the AF system from the 40D and 50D I've shot both and the 60D is a lot better, it's actually pretty close to the 7D, and maybe a little brighter.
> 
> Anyway as I said earlier the only real way to know which one is right for you is to go play with them both, and what ever you decide you'll have a great camera and a real upgrade from your S3



I'm curious about your decision to buy a 60D when you already own a 7D. What was the reason? Was it simply to have a backup body? Or a second body to make switching between lenses easy?

Please note that I'm not being critical; just curious. The 7D and 60D seem very similar to me. (I hope to have a nice second body myself at some point, but if the CFO approves it will be a a 5D3....if they ever exist).


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## urkel (Oct 7, 2010)

After a week with a 60D of my own then here's some quick impressions. (Before the Canon defense force jumps on me, I've waited a year for this camera and currently own it. 

Pro:
+ Pictures look just as good as the 7D
+ ISO Limiter (A major problem I've had w/7D is how auto ISO blows out photos)
+ Toy Camera filter. Most other Toy Camera filters look cheesy but I love the way this one looks for some reason. I have to learn how to replicate this in Aperture

Con:
- MicroAdjustments. This is a big deal and a serious omission that makes this a pure consumer cam
- Button lock for mode wheel. This would be fine if there were 4 modes. But with all the consumer options there's a dozen stops which makes this obnoxious
- Video Mode location. It's Waaaay at the end of the dial which makes quick vids very tough
- 9 Focus Points. I don't shoot wild birds but I do photograph kids and my baby. 9 points with a 1.4 lens simply gets in the way of a great photo.

Neutral
- Plastic Shell. It feels much better than 550D but it still feels cheap compared to 7D
- Creative Filters. I like the Toy Camera but its a novelty and the others were pretty disappointing. 
- Articulating Screen. This was a major selling point and I find myself not caring as much. I'm glad it's there but it's not nearly the dealbreaker I thought it would be.
- Price. I thought saving $400 over the 7D would be great but the more I use this the more I feel the $400 is worth it. 

Overall my impression is that this is a fantastic upgrade for Rebel users and beginners, but far too limiting for those who aspire to do more. Due to the lack of essential "pro" features then I wouldnt even recommend this as a 2nd body. As much as I wanted to love the 60D then I'm reluctantly going to move on to the 7D or D7000. They're both fantastic cameras but both also will cost me more than I budgeted so hopefully I make the right decision in the next 2 weeks.


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## unfocused (Oct 7, 2010)

> As much as I wanted to love the 60D then I'm reluctantly going to move on to the 7D or D7000.



Interesting. This could be my own personal bias as a 7D owner, but it seems like there are very few people on this forum who actually own a 7D that have any buyer's remorse or "camera envy." Not thinking of people who might want to eventually upgrade to full frame, but rather people who own the 7D and, now a year later, are seeing other models released by Canon, Nikon and others. 

I had a lot of qualms when I bought the 7D. (Was I spending too much? Would a 60D come out that had everything the 7D had for less? Would it, in short, meet or exceed my expectations?) Of course most people, myself included, are loathe to admit they made a buying mistake, but I have to say that I really have no regrets. In fact, I'm not even sure I would switch to full frame if given the choice.


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## urkel (Oct 7, 2010)

unfocused said:


> I had a lot of qualms when I bought the 7D. (Was I spending too much? Would a 60D come out that had everything the 7D had for less? Would it, in short, meet or exceed my expectations?)


Its funny because when I decided NOT to buy a 7D for myself last year. At the time all I needed was an updated 50D and a 7D was overkill. But as it turned out, I got better with my photography and now a 7D/D7000 fits my needs pretty well.



unfocused said:


> Of course most people, myself included, are loathe to admit they made a buying mistake, but I have to say that I really have no regrets. In fact, I'm not even sure I would switch to full frame if given the choice.


Thats a good point. What makes the 7D so much different than the 60D is that the 7D is a perfect backup/2nd camera for pros, but the 60D lacks key features that make it too "low end" for professional work. So even though the initial cost of the 7D is higher than the 60D, in the end then it's probably a better investment.


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2010)

urkel said:


> Overall my impression is that this is a fantastic upgrade for Rebel users and beginners, but far too limiting for those who aspire to do more. Due to the lack of essential "pro" features then I wouldnt even recommend this as a 2nd body. As much as I wanted to love the 60D then I'm reluctantly going to move on to the 7D or D7000. They're both fantastic cameras but both also will cost me more than I budgeted so hopefully I make the right decision in the next 2 weeks.



very nice summary. I am still torn between the 60D and the 7D. can you tell me what are the "por feature" that is missing on the 60D?? I know that 7D has the micro focus adjustment, more auto focus points with grouping, and the metal body that the 60D lacks. On the other hand, I like the tilt screen of the 60D. I do not care about any video related feature. Thanks for the advice in advance.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 7, 2010)

Rocky said:


> Can you tell me what are the "pro feature" that is missing on the 60D??



This would be my list of 'pro' features that the 7D has and the 60D lacks (but note that I am not a pro!):


AF microadjustment
Lifespan of 50,000 more shutter actuations
8 fps shooting speed
CF card (faster data transfers than SD)
PC sync socket (flash control)
Dual-axis electronic level (the 60D has only horizontal) - ok, I'm kidding on that one being a 'pro' feature


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## unexposure (Oct 7, 2010)

neuroanatomist said:


> Rocky said:
> 
> 
> > Can you tell me what are the "pro feature" that is missing on the 60D??
> ...


I would't really agree on that...

- AF Microadjustment is commonly "abused" to do some minor corrections to misbehaving lenses. "Pros" should use this in "emergency"-cases when for example the body was dropped when beeing on location and the only possibility to get the job done is by "fixing" it directly. For all other cases "Pros" can just go and make use of CPS.
- Lifespan might be a "Pro"-Feature. I'm on your side at this point.
- 8 FPS is not what I would consider a "pro feature". Neither 1ds (I, II, III) nor 5d (I, II) deliver such an amount of fps - it's just the placement for what the camera is made for. None of the "Pros" I know who do studiostuff or wedding which keep a 7d as backup-body bought it for the high fps-count.
- CF-Card is argueable too. Some photokina presented sd-cards reach pretty much the same speed as common high-quality cf-cards. The bottleneck on here is the controller - and I must admit, I have no clue what the limit of 60d's controller is. Considering that the cam allows HD-Video and similar to 7D [email protected], I would guess, that canon did a major improvement to sd-controllers of 550D and 60D to make them able to write the data.
- PC-Sync: Here I'm totally with you. I don't really get, why they did remove it. Might be, because of the more and more common use of radio-triggers but this defenatly is a feature that's missing compared to a "Pro-Body".
- Electronic Level is more some kind like "nice to have" but I don't think any "pro" in architecture oder landscape or whatsoever would give a greater trust in the build-in-level over the level on his tripods-head. ;-)

In Opposite what makes the 60d more "pro" than 7D is all about video-related stuff.
- Manual Gain Control. This is - for serious filmers one of the biggest problems with 7d and a big plus for 60d. Some of the more serious filmers consider the 5d mkII (which has the manual-feature) as "pretty hard to handle" in case of depth of field-situations due to the sensor-size. So 7d came in pretty welcome but without the other "pro feature" that is now brougt by 60d
- Articulating Screen is nothing seriosly "pro" when it comes to video in first case, since using some kind of display-loope or even better a bigger live-screen is more common in "pro-video". But the main advantage of dslr vs. 35mm film or "professional" digital-gear is the size of the cameras. And at this point, I guess, this might be very welcome by some "video-pros", when it comes to situations where you just can't handle your rig very well (eg inside a car).


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## MintMark (Oct 9, 2010)

neuroanatomist said:


> Lifespan of 50,000 more shutter actuations



I don't know where your figure came from, but a quick web search shows respectable review sites (like The Digital Picture and Imaging Resource) quoting the 60D shutter lifetime as 100000 cycles, the same as the 50D.

Perhaps you have a reference for this?


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 9, 2010)

MintMark said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Lifespan of 50,000 more shutter actuations
> ...



I wasn't comparing the 60D to the 50D, but to the 7D:



neuroanatomist said:


> This would be my list of 'pro' features that the *7D* has and the 60D lacks...



You can go to either of the respectable review sites you mention and see that the shutter lifespan of the 7D is rated at 150,000 actuations, which is 50,000 more shutter actuations than the 60D.


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## MintMark (Oct 10, 2010)

neuroanatomist said:


> You can go to either of the respectable review sites you mention and see that the shutter lifespan of the 7D is rated at 150,000 actuations, which is 50,000 more shutter actuations than the 60D.



I do apologise. I completely mis-understood your point. That should teach me to post on the internet last thing at night after a long day.

Sorry for disturbing the thread...

Mark


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## urkel (Oct 10, 2010)

Sorry for whining once again, but I've got to rant on that new iPod style click wheel. It's terrible. And I dont think it's a situation where you'll get used to it and love it, it's just a bad implementation that is made worse because they already had a superior design that was unique to Canon. The Joystick.

The click wheel has two major issues.
1) Unresponsive - It requires a lot of effort in order to get it to respond and with such limited focus points it gets in the way. And getting to those diagonal focus zones is pretty tough because it just doesn't go diagonal very well. ESPECIALLY compared to the rubbery feel of the Canon Joystick or the Nikon direction pad that they use on their higher end models.

2) Location - I have normal sized hands but reaching the click-wheel is an awkward motion without having the left hand supporting the camera weight. I don't get why they felt putting a wheel INSIDE another wheel made sense but it was unecessary. Some apologists will say that it's because of the swivel screen but they could have easily designed this with both the swivel screen AND joystick.


I'm not trying to rip on the 60D. In fact, I'm still considering keeping it because of the huge price difference between this and the 7D. BUT, considering how many homeruns Canon has been hitting lately then I'm surprised that they released a product with so many problems (personal opinion). And I'm not sure if this means the Public may agree, but when the 7D came out it was sold out everywhere but at my local Best Buys then they've got stacks of 60D's.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 10, 2010)

MintMark said:


> That should teach me to post on the internet last thing at night after a long day.
> 
> Mark



No worries, Mark. That usually happens to me when I post something first thing in the morning, before I've had a cup of coffee...


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## MintMark (Oct 11, 2010)

urkel said:


> Sorry for whining once again, but I've got to rant on that new iPod style click wheel. It's terrible. And I dont think it's a situation where you'll get used to it and love it, it's just a bad implementation that is made worse because they already had a superior design that was unique to Canon. The Joystick.
> 
> The click wheel has two major issues.
> 1) Unresponsive - It requires a lot of effort in order to get it to respond and with such limited focus points it gets in the way. And getting to those diagonal focus zones is pretty tough because it just doesn't go diagonal very well. ESPECIALLY compared to the rubbery feel of the Canon Joystick or the Nikon direction pad that they use on their higher end models.
> ...



I actually find it easier to select the corner focus points using the wheel compared to the joystick (I had a 50D before). I don't really have a problem with the position of the wheel, but I do wish it had some tactile feedback so that it feels like a positive click when you use it.

I use the camera in the dark so it will take me a while to find the new buttons by touch since they are more flush with the body now.


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## Macadameane (Feb 22, 2011)

heri11 said:


> Nikon D7000 is the best DSLR Camera. Because the Nikon D7000 includes a range of new features to ensure superior image quality including 16.2 effective megapixels with the newly developed Nikon DX format CMOS image sensor.
> 
> *Pros *
> 1. 16.2 MP image sensor
> ...



Or not. I'll keep my 7D.


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