# Review 2015 "Dumping Canon & Nikon"



## distant.star (Nov 30, 2015)

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Jordan & Chris at The Camera Store talking about the kind of year this has been.

https://youtu.be/DtTPCAn6kU8

They see mirrorless making gains in that: "This is the first time that I've seen people in droves dumping Canon and Nikon, like LOYAL people..."


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## Tinky (Dec 1, 2015)

currently going 4K mft for video. I don't have the money to spend that Canon wants.

Keeping my EF lenses. For now.


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## distant.star (Dec 1, 2015)

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For the most part, I've moved over to Fuji. But I am able to keep the Canon as a second system. When it's not a business you can afford some extravagance, I suppose.

I still have my S95, and though I haven't taken 10 pictures with it this year, I can't see letting it go.


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## Zeidora (Dec 1, 2015)

That's all well and good for the "good enough" crowd. I have and keep my Arca 4x5" as my other camera.


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## Orangutan (Dec 1, 2015)

distant.star said:


> .
> "This is the first time that I've seen people in droves dumping Canon and Nikon, like LOYAL people..."



We'll have to wait for the sales reports: anecdotes about what someone's brother's sister's cousin bought don't constitute meaningful data.


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## distant.star (Dec 1, 2015)

Orangutan said:


> distant.star said:
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These are not hearsay reports. These folks run a large retail camera store. When they say people are bringing in equipment and selling it, they're reporting business fact. Also, I'm not aware of any reports published on used equipment sales/trades.


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## geonix (Dec 1, 2015)

I saw that video yesterday.
Generally I like camerastore tv. These guys have the perspektive of salesmen. 
When they say that it was a boring year, because almost everything seem to stand still and (exept Sony) nobody is really innovating, I just don't care.

That a lot of people are handing Canon and Nikon gear in to switch to Sony is understandable.
If I wouldn't do wildlife and bird photography and just do the 'usual' street and travel photography things, I would probably switch too. So far I haven't seen a single serious wildlife or sports photographer with a Sony mirrorless using telephoto lenses.


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## LSXPhotog (Dec 1, 2015)

You either own a camera to make a living, or you own one for fun. If I didn't make a living with my gear, I'd probably consider switching or at least trying a mirrorless body for photos. I just don't see how dumping cash into a new camera system would benefit my work, business, company, or reputation. God forbid I ever reach a point that I'm stale with my work and no longer interested. I care to invest in better product for clients, yes, but that is better achieved with more comprehensive lighting or put back into my business to grow.

I don't think anyone can say a mirrorless system isn't professional at this point, but I personally think the switch has no benefit to me.

The TCS show is great and they generally tell it how it is. But they also speak for a very small market in Alberta, Canada based on sales in the store and through communication to their industry friends. I still don't down a mad exodus from SLR, as most of the industry is consumer.


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## privatebydesign (Dec 1, 2015)

distant.star said:


> Orangutan said:
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Funnily enough I have an anecdote. I was talking to a photographer tonight, he shoots with a 5D MkIII, anyway he was at our local camera store last week and bought a secondhand Sony A7SII, he was offered it as a used return for $400 off, he thought about it and bought it. Anyway, he isn't selling the 5D MkIII at this point he intends to use the Sony as a "less serious tool", but as interesting to me was the fact that somebody else bought that Sony for full retail and took it back after less than a week saying they absolutely hated it, and wee prepared to lose money doing it.


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## Orangutan (Dec 1, 2015)

distant.star said:


> These are not hearsay reports.



The difference between data and hearsay is the presentation of legitimate data.


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## tomscott (Dec 1, 2015)

I have to agree with most comments. 

If I didn't need my DSLR for work I would certainly look to purchase one of the A7 cameras. I was an early adopter and bought a NEX5N and like it, but it does nothing more than a couple of family snaps. I shoot with big teles a lot and Mirrorless just isn't geared up for it. The Sony stuff is amazing but the Canon stuff is still Damn good and lenses there is no comparison.

Its all about selecting the right tool for the job and from a professional standpoint the Sony stuff just isn't there yet give it some time... that sensor in a serious all round camera like the 5D would be an insane camera.


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## 3kramd5 (Dec 1, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> but as interesting to me was the fact that somebody else bought that Sony for full retail and took it back after less than a week saying they absolutely hated it, *and wee prepared to lose money doing it*.



I bought an A7R2 with a reasonably high expectation I'd sell it at a loss soon after. Fortunately those things about it I dislike are things I can live with and I've kept it.


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## Don Haines (Dec 1, 2015)

I love anecdotal evidence...... you can always find something to justify any point of view.

For instance, I went into my local camera store to get a memory card and there were 3 different ladies buying Nikon D5300 cameras..... this proves that Nikon is the sales leader and mirrorless is dead!.

They did not have the memory card in stock and so they ordered it for me.....

When I went to pick it up there was a guy buying a 70D and another buying a 6Ti... This proves that now Canon has overtaken Nikon in sales and the two days are aggregate proof that FF camera sales are dead.


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## 3kramd5 (Dec 1, 2015)

dilbert said:


> 3kramd5 said:
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It's mainly the controls/UI.
1) I struggle significantly selecting focus points; the camera is very prone to changing menus while I'm trying to toggle across the AF spots. I would much prefer a dedicated control pad which does nothing else. If I am shooting anything unpredictable, I use canon DSLRs. If I'm shooting studio, landscapes, etc., I use the a7.

2) It annoys me how it locks out certain functions, such the viewfinder magnification if I haven't specifically enabled manual focus, or manual focus via the lens ring with native glass if I haven't specifically enabled manual focus. I like to use a combination sometimes (AF to get close, MF to fine tune). That's a no-go with native e-mount AF glass.

3) It has a strange propensity to open up the menu somewhere other than where I'd left it. Since I rarely enter the menu other than to format the card or disable airplane mode / transfer photos to my smartphone, it's not a huge deal. 

4) It's absurdly slow reviewing photos, particularly zooming (regardless of what quality setting I've selected for display).

There are other things I'm sure, but those are the ones that immediately came to mind. 1 and 2 are the big ones.



dilbert said:


> And does the A7RII have a constrast focus and exposure selection system that works the same as live view on Canon DSLRs?



My comments above about selecting AF points apply equally to the EVF and the rear display, although much of the time it's doing phase detect. Manual focus is significantly better on the A7 due to in-EVH magnification (which trumps rear display magnification due to clarity and relative size); using the rear display it's 6 to one, half dozen to the other (in other words, sony's implementation is ages better than nikon's). I had a lot of hope for focus peeking, but have thus far found it unreliable since it's just displaying high contrast areas, which are often in very OOF areas.

I'm not sure what you're asking regarding exposure selection. I have it set up for easy access to all three exposure parameters, and have a button mapped to bring up metering mode. I wish I could hold a button down and spin a wheel to change ISO (like with canon). Unfortunately I have to bring up a menu, which isn't as quick.


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## distant.star (Dec 1, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> I love anecdotal evidence...... you can always find something to justify any point of view.



Your little fantasies are quite entertaining. But I watched the video (twice, to be sure) and saw no one offer anything approaching "anecdotal evidence" of anything.

What I see is an interesting comment from someone in a camera retailing operation that operates nationally. He had not previously seen the numbers of loyal Canon/Nikon users trading in their equipment. He does obliquely suggest they are mostly doing this to acquire mirrorless equipment. I could just as easily conclude economic conditions are difficult and they are selling their stuff to make mortgage payments.

Again, it's an observation from someone who has years of experience participating in the retail market. It's an exception to past experience. Such an observation from such a person carries weight, but it does not constitute evidence of anything.


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## Don Haines (Dec 1, 2015)

distant.star said:


> Don Haines said:
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> > I love anecdotal evidence...... you can always find something to justify any point of view.
> ...



It's just that it is impossible to make any kind of conclusion with limited data..... For example, that store might have the best trade-in policy in the area so they would be seeing an un-naturally high degree of trade-in cameras.... or maybe they have the worst trade-in policy and the practice is far greater than they realize....

In my memory card and camera buyer's example, the store was having a big Nikon promotion when I went in for the card and everyone was buying Nikons..... they were out of the card I wanted, but expecting more in a few days, and when I went in on the Monday to pick it up they were having a big Canon promotion and OMG! everyone was buying Canon..... an unmentioned bit of information which makes the buyer behaviour reasonable. This week it's Sony/Panasonic/Olympus so it's a safe bet that most buyers this week will be mirrorless.....


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## Maiaibing (Dec 1, 2015)

Facts: People are dumping SLR photography - its as simple as that. 

Mirrorless may be one reason but its by no means a leading reason. SLR is being dumped in far higher numbers than mirrorless sales are expanding.

Were talking double digit sales dives for Canon over several consecutive years. Nikon did a little better at first but are now on the same track (plenty of numbers and statements from both companies to document this).

Anecdotal: I notice that selling used Canon gear has become far more difficult than before.


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## JohnDizzo15 (Dec 1, 2015)

While I cannot and will not speak for the rest of the market, I for one recently sold my last Canon DSLR last month after picking up the a7r2 and now only have some Canon glass left with an EOS M and metabones adapter for those few pieces.

However, I didn't necessarily feel like I was "dumping" Canon so much as I was dumping the DSLR. I have no qualms about coming back to a Canon body at some point if they end up producing something that piques my interest. But nothing in the Canon body department at the moment is appealing to me or works as well as my xt1 or a7r2 for what I need them for. The glass is still great and they work well with the Sony so I will hold onto them until a better solution comes along. It matters not whether it comes from Canon or anyone else.


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## Don Haines (Dec 1, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> Facts: People are dumping SLR photography - its as simple as that.
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> Mirrorless may be one reason but its by no means a leading reason. SLR is being dumped in far higher numbers than mirrorless sales are expanding.
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Declining sales is not dumping. Declining sales is that they are not selling as many as before and can be due to many factors, such as mature market or superior competition. 

Dumping is getting rid of. 

These are two different processes that are related, but not the same.

An awful lot of Canon (and Nikon) gear out "in the wild" is low end crop cameras with kit lenses. Some of these people are going to just let the camera sit quietly in the closet and die a slow death while they shoot with a phone... Others are going to realize that ANY of the mirrorless cameras out there are better than their old DSLR and switch brands, and most of the discarded DSLRs go off to kids, relatives, or back into the closet.... I would bet that a far greater number of Canons and Nikons suffer this fate than get returned to a store, so I don't regard used cameras in stores as an accurate indicator of either the health or the sickness of DSLRs.

Remember, we are the fanatics..... the loony tunes.... we do not accurately represent the customer base of Canon.


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## privatebydesign (Dec 1, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> Facts: People are dumping SLR photography - its as simple as that.


No it is not a "Fact".

New sales are declining, but that doesn't translate to SLR's being dumped. I have said many times here DSLR's are now a comparatively mature product, what needs to be in the next model to so outclass the current model as to make a multi thousand dollar purchase compelling?

Longevity and durability have increased with technical advances and expanded feature sets, if the last model had a shutter life of 100,000, then marketing dictates the new model must do 200,000, so what? Many people will never get close to their old models 100,000!

How much 'more' do we *need*, we have more pixels than most will ever need, more lenses, more DR, more iso etc etc. I see DSR sales falling back to levels similar to the film days, people might replace their cameras every 10 years or so and when they do they will look at whatever competition happens to be around at the time.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying there is no room for improvement, there is and I will welcome it when it comes, what I am saying is that there are no huge leaps left, people don't need to upgrade every model iteration to gain significant picture taking functionality indeed I would venture that most DSLR owners are happy with what they have and see no reason to upgrade.


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## Tinky (Dec 1, 2015)

anecdotal, I'm chucking canon.

emperical: I wanted a 4k camera for modest money. Canon gave me the xc10. Panasonic gave me a g7. Went with the g7.

I have my canon lenses, which I'm adapting via a metabones xl .64.

I'll keep my eos lenses for video, in the hope canon do something in line with the market at some point, but for stills I think i'm going to go with panny mft lenses. A couple of primes.


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## Otara (Dec 1, 2015)

The bit that makes me a bit dubious is where they say they're offering $800 for $20K of gear, unles sI misheard that. I do think DSLR is on the way out in the medium to long term for most purposes, but unless that was very old equipment, thats not an accurate statement of the current worth of canon gear.

FUD isnt exactly a new tactic in sales - giving people the impression they need to update before their camera gear becomes worthless has some pretty obvious benefits for people who own a camera store.


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## docsmith (Dec 2, 2015)

1). I like the camera store's blog but they have for awhile been enamored/pushing mirrorless. So this, even if accurate could easily be a skewed data point. Basically a self fulfilling prophecy. 
2). Sigma tamron are in an interesting position in that the are 3rd party manufactures heavily invested in the market. They could focus on mirrorless lens makers with their 3rd party lenses, yet they seem to, if anything, be doubling down on the DSLR market with recent release after recent release. Me thinks they know more than I do.


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## Tinky (Dec 2, 2015)

docsmith said:


> 1). I like the camera store's blog but they have for awhile been enamored/pushing mirrorless. So this, even if accurate could easily be a skewed data point. Basically a self fulfilling prophecy.
> 2). Sigma tamron are in an interesting position in that the are 3rd party manufactures heavily invested in the market. They could focus on mirrorless lens makers with their 3rd party lenses, yet they seem to, if anything, be doubling down on the DSLR market with recent release after recent release. Me thinks they know more than I do.



On point 2... despite the interest in mirrorless bodies, folk seem more interested in adapting their existing lenses. As a lens manufacturer it's win win. Also, Minolta AF, Pentax K, Nikon F and Canon EF mounts are long out of patent. Sony E.. EF-s.. EF-M.. not so much.


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## Sportsgal501 (Dec 2, 2015)

I traded in three of my Canon DSLRs and a few lenses not to hurry up and buy a mirror-less but they were older models, heavy and I wanted to still get a good trade in value while they were still worth something. 

I picked up the SL1 which is so light and easy to carry and have attached my 24mm f / 2.8 USM ISM lens on it so I'm still in the fold although I do use my Pentax K-5IIs and just recently purchased the Sony A6000 which are on sale for the Christmas holidays. 

I honestly enjoy taking photographs more now with the lighter cameras.


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## geekpower (Dec 2, 2015)

those guys are salesmen. i should know, i shop in their store.

i would call this a sales pitch designed to sell a camera, any camera, to people who might otherwise just use their iphone.


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## YellowJersey (Dec 2, 2015)

It's not just Jordan and Chris. I talk to the guys in the various camera stores around Toronto and they all say the same thing. Sure, it may not be sales reports and "hard data" but it is indicative, though not necessarily determinative, that there's a shift happening in the market. Even keeping up with the latest gear, I haven't been particularly "wow'd" by the cameras Canon and Nikon have put out. So it is prudent to take the shop guys' word with a grain of salt, but it would be wrong to dismiss it entirely.


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## NorbR (Dec 2, 2015)

Otara said:


> The bit that makes me a bit dubious is where they say they're offering $800 for $20K of gear, unles sI misheard that.



That was clearly a joke. It's probably more obvious if you've watched more of their videos before (which I did, I enjoy their channel).

Other than that, a few points to add:

1. yes it's still relatively anecdotal, and representative of a small market, but I was still interested to hear them say that. They do have a relatively large store and sell all kinds of camera, so however limited and non representative their sample size may be, it's still much more relevant and substantiated than many of the similar claims we read every day on this forum. I do agree however that they are mirrorless enthusiasts (unapologetically, I believe), so that's certainly one bit of bias, they're more likely to sell them. 

2. overall I don't see why it should be surprising or worrying that this would happen. Mirrorless is growing and diversifying, that much is clear. The elephant in the room is Sony of course. I'm the furthest thing from a Sony fanboy, but what they have now (and 2015 was a big year in that regard) is a very convincing system as a whole. Much of the criticism that could have been directed at them just 2 years ago, about body and lenses, doesn't apply any more. So for some people, that's the best system, and they switch. For others (many others) it's not, and they don't switch, and they don't get noticed at a store like this. 

3. let's not turn this into YAPODFC™, please, or even doom for DLSRs ... Because that's not even what they are saying. They say both things quite clearly: "Mirrorless is the future" and "DSLRs are here to stay". I happen to agree with both these statements, they can be perfectly compatible.


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## K-amps (Dec 2, 2015)

Orangutan said:


> distant.star said:
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You will not get meaningful data anytime soon, so for now, need to rely on exit poll type referential data... go to any store and ask them... they will tell you Canon DSLR's are not selling as well as they did, and they cannot keep an inventory of the A7ii's (R) since they keep getting sold out on those. Clearly a shift is taking place and some of us refuse to acknowledge it.

There is no good reason for Canon to test the loyalties of its customer base... that sort of flakiness is best reserved for the A-Mount owners... Canon should work at giving it's customers the best it can and make money while at it. things like using old sensor tech or AE linked to AF point is missing from the Stills line-up save the 1 series... why? Aren't there enough differentiators? Aren't there enough people using the 5d3 for Weddings, that an AE linked to AF would not save them time and shots? Why create this needless dissonance? Why are they forcing Wedding Photegs to buy into a 1dx? Its overkill for most folks. 

It boggles the mind that a company with the resources available to them like Canon, cannot come up with a Modern sensor that leaves all these newer entrants in the dust, there is something to be said about corporate intertia; it also begs the question why can we not have AE linked to AF in a 5D class body, clearly this is protectionism... I mean try shooting kids running around in shaded areas, while using a non-middle AF point while you are spot metering on a 5D3 and you will see what I mean.

Canon can do better... it just teases.


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## docsmith (Dec 2, 2015)

Tinky said:


> docsmith said:
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> > 1). I like the camera store's blog but they have for awhile been enamored/pushing mirrorless. So this, even if accurate could easily be a skewed data point. Basically a self fulfilling prophecy.
> ...



Yet...Sigma does make Sony E mount/micro fourthirds lenses, and offers "conversion kits"....just a fraction of the number they make for DSLRs. So, I do not know about the patent issue, but they seem to have gotten around it for a couple of lenses. I am still thinking that they perceive the DSLR market to be better for their lenses even though there is a dirth of lens options for mirrorless that would seem ripe for the taking...


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## AcutancePhotography (Dec 2, 2015)

Not quite sure I understand the debate.

Some people like DSLR cameras
Some people like Mirrorless cameras

Some people are switching from DSLR to Mirrorless
Some people are switching from Mirrorless to DSLR

Use the system you like to use and don't worry so much about what other people do or say.


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## 3kramd5 (Dec 2, 2015)

docsmith said:


> 2). Sigma tamron are in an interesting position in that the are 3rd party manufactures heavily invested in the market. They could focus on mirrorless lens makers with their 3rd party lenses, yet they seem to, if anything, be doubling down on the DSLR market with recent release after recent release. Me thinks they know more than I do.



Well, even if the percentage of DLSRs sold goes down while the percentage of MILCs sold goes up, surely there are more DLSRs in the wild than MILCs, and a lens manufacturer is likely to go after existing owners rather than new body buyers who may purchase OEM kit lenses, etc.

As the number of lens-buying camera OWNERS using MILCs approaches those using DSLRs, I suspect we'll see movement from the lens-makers. Until then, it's probably niche.


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## tcmatthews (Dec 2, 2015)

Around 20% of my photography needs I must have to use a DSLR. There is not yet any viable alternative for a dedicated wildlife camera. I think in a few years m43 may get there. So for the most part 80% of my pictures are taken with my Sony A7II. This is up from 50% before the latest update added actual performance auto focus with Canon lenses. I was manual focusing that 50% and did not have all the lenses I wanted.

I was contemplating selling all my Canon and Sony APC-s items before I bought a Canon 7D II. Now only the Sony APC-s is on the chopping block. 

Most of the desire to sell was so that I could buy more Sony lenses to use with the A7II or fund a A7rII. But with the software update I do not need to do that anymore. I do think that baring a specific need mirror-less is getting to the point where it is just as good or better than entry level DSLRs. And if you do not need a DSLR any more dump it. 

One of my managers is a huge photography buff and he dumped Canon 3 years ago for m43. Sold his 7D and everything. If the 7DII was 2 years earlier or the 5D III a few $1000 cheaper he would still be using Canon.


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## George D. (Dec 2, 2015)

CR0. Looks like they're dumping Samsung, for now they're looking for a downsized Canon and Nikon (dSLR).

Well, I know only one maker who succeeded in downsizing. Strip dSLR of everything in excess and you end up with a Leica. But then you upsize the price...


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## TeT (Dec 2, 2015)

in droves? Trading in your t2i or d50 for a new mirrorless doesnt count. I'll consider it being a dump when its the 5diii & d810 with quality system lenses being traded in for for mirrorless systems... otherwize its just consumers being consumers chasing the glitzy product when its time to buy...

CAnon & Nikon bodies are the only older bodies that are worth trading in (mostly from a resale point of view) title probably should have been dumping old DLSR's...


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## AcutancePhotography (Dec 2, 2015)

Petapixle, an almost nearly kinda authoritative source.. not really, just published a story claiming that "Nikon has reportedly acquired all of Samsung’s NX camera technology ".

Maybe we will start seeing some thing mirrorless from Nikon?


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## Otara (Dec 2, 2015)

NorbR said:


> Otara said:
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> > The bit that makes me a bit dubious is where they say they're offering $800 for $20K of gear, unles sI misheard that.
> ...



I get thats its a 'joke' and I guess I did overemphasise it, but it was in the context of them talking up mirrorless and that pros are switching in 'droves;, the implied message of future worth wasnt a coincidence in my view. 

Yes there are even worse data points, but thats always the case, and it doesnt make this one particularly useful in my view, at the end of the day they're still sales people trying to push a particular product area, supplying no actual numbers or anything that can be actually verified.

Otara


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