# How does Canon respond to the D800?



## K-amps (Feb 7, 2012)

So now that Nikon has owned up and announced the fabled D800, and we all kept saying that Canon will respond Fire with Fire…

What do you guys think Canon will do now? Match Nikon on features (since they probably need a high MP body anyway now that the 1dx is the high DR body) or will they go their own route (22mp but better AF etc).

Also on Price, since the $3900 non-AA version did not happen, does that mean Canon with a 22mp body will try and keep it in the 2500 range?


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## Ricku (Feb 7, 2012)

To truly respond to the D800, canon will have to make a 5D3 that will cannibalize the sales of the 1D X.

And we all know they do not want to do so.

Well played Nikon. Well played..


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## pedro (Feb 7, 2012)

Ricku said:


> To truly respond to the D800, canon will have to make a 5D3 that will cannibalize the sales of the 1D X.
> 
> And we all know they do not want to do so.
> 
> Well played Nikon. Well played..



Exactly. Wish they'd do. We had it all here:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,3131.0.html


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## awinphoto (Feb 7, 2012)

well... the nikon only has 15 cross sensors so perhaps the 7d's 19 cross sensors would be a good start... Those who need high MP (not to say there aren't any) are few and far between except in agency situation... I could see a 24-27MP camera... max 30. I think they'd love to put in the 1d4 or 1dx ISO capabilities (104K+) but they realize the more MP, the lower that number... This is probably why the D800 is no better ISO capabilities as the 5d2 albeit it's 15 MP more. The 5d tends to be the professionals photographer all around camera, so no need for 36 MP in that case, but mid 20's would be appropriate, and improved AF. Levels and custom buttons most likely... HD video @60fps to keep face, and weathersealing...


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## awinphoto (Feb 7, 2012)

IF canon does do a High MP camera, i could see a with and without AA filter like nikon did so no one can complain. But I have a hunch we may see another camera alltogether that is high MP... perhaps 40+ to shove it in nikons face.


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## K-amps (Feb 7, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> IF canon does do a High MP camera, i could see a with and without AA filter like nikon did so no one can complain. But I have a hunch we may see another camera alltogether that is high MP... perhaps 40+ to shove it in nikons face.



Added to the poll. 

Everyone has 3 votes!


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## Freshprince08 (Feb 7, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> IF canon does do a High MP camera, i could see a with and without AA filter like nikon did so no one can complain. But I have a hunch we may see another camera alltogether that is high MP... perhaps 40+ to shove it in nikons face.



Strongly agree with this, and in my personal opinion this has been Canon's plan since before then1Dx release - a high MP studio/landscape cam, with another body more focused on noise/low light performance. Call them what you will!


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## Picsfor (Feb 7, 2012)

if every one has 3 votes, how come i only got 1?


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## tt (Feb 7, 2012)

Scott Kelby makes a point - the D800 isn't the true successor to the D700, in that breaks form - it's less about sports or action than the D700 or the 1DX or the 7D. 
http://scottkelby.com/2012/jumping-the-gun-on-the-d800/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

How Canon responds? Well, the 7D/5D MkII hybrid sounds about right.
To play the devil's advocate:
The cinematographers will be disappointed if there aren't improvements like the D800's. 
The wedding folk will call for pitchforks if their low light needs aren't satisfied
Landscape folk are wanting a MF in a FF body, and general folk might complain if it's higher priced, above the current 5D Mk II, to make (more) space for a 600D, 60D and 7D replacement if needed. 

What are they responding to? The MP count, the video capabilities, the AF/AE/Face recognition/FX,DX capabilities?
I don't see why Canon can't come out with a higher priced 5D replacement. The 7D price went down quickly, the 5D MarkII has had a gradual decline, but I don't think either model sold new is going to go any lower than it was a month ago.


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## awinphoto (Feb 7, 2012)

tt said:


> Scott Kelby makes a point - the D800 isn't the true successor to the D700, in that breaks form - it's less about sports or action than the D700 or the 1DX or the 7D.
> http://scottkelby.com/2012/jumping-the-gun-on-the-d800/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
> 
> How Canon responds? Well, the 7D/5D MkII hybrid sounds about right.
> ...



My vote is the wedding/landscape mesh...


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## EYEONE (Feb 7, 2012)

First off, I don't think Canon is going to be responding to anything. They are likely not surprised and have known about what the D800 was going to be long before we did. But they are probably planning to release a high MP DSLR in the coming year anyway regardless of what the D800 turned out to be. I don't think Canon is jumping to their feet trying to figure out what to do about a 36mp SLR from a competitor.

They dropped the 1Dx down to 18mp and made a lot of people happy. It's looking like the 5DIII will be 22mp but there has got to be a high MP camera for the people that want that. Maybe a 3D or a 5Dx or something. They have got to know that there is a market for 30+mp and are working on it. 

Even though 30+mp doesn't appeal to me in the slightest I recognize that some people need or want it.


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## K-amps (Feb 7, 2012)

Picsfor said:


> if every one has 3 votes, how come i only got 1?



I tried, I had 3, but it has to be put the first time you access the thread/poll.


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## Dianoda (Feb 7, 2012)

pedro said:


> Ricku said:
> 
> 
> > To truly respond to the D800, canon will have to make a 5D3 that will cannibalize the sales of the 1D X.
> ...



Yeah, if Canon matches those rumored specs, then the 5DIII/5DX will easily win my money. For my next body, it's really just a fight between the 1DX and 5DII successor anyways. I have enough fancy Canon glass that I wouldn't consider switching systems, Nikon's ergonomics don't sit well with me, and I'm not interested in another APS-C camera, either (I want the better DoF control and cleaner high-ISO output that full frame offers).

For the Nikon users, the D800 definitely looks pretty sweet. Although, judging from test images, the fabled 14-24 f/2.8 isn't quite up to snuff for a 36MP FF sensor. Test shots with the 24-70 and 70-200 look pretty great for the most part.


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## RedEye (Feb 7, 2012)

As of yesterday, Canon has new glass - with higher contrast - to match an at least equal in quality sensor = a slight step above. Most pro guys will chase the glass and then hope the sensor won't let them down, and in this case I think Canon had an equal and opposite reaction to the new camera release. When Canon's new camera is out, the net results will likely be superior. 

P.S. to Canon Corp. - Please ship by April so we arn't shunned by the Nikon spring breakers, otherwise they'll look at us with our rebles like we farted in Church...


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## awinphoto (Feb 7, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > think they'd love to put in the 1d4 or 1dx ISO capabilities (104K+) but they realize the more MP, the lower that number... This is probably why the D800 is no better ISO capabilities as the 5d2 albeit it's 15 MP more.
> ...



Well the 5d2 ISO being the same as D800 in terms of the 25K max.. whether in practice if it's 1/2 a stop better or not, we will have to see more test/results from production samples before we get too worked up. Obviously, the higher the MP, the more noise you are going to get at high ISO, or at least the more the noise will be magnified. That is probably why nikon didn't bother with 51K ISO or 104K ISO with the D800, it would look like crap and they dont want people to have a reason to complain about their choice to use high MP.


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## unfocused (Feb 7, 2012)

Canon Rumors guy was spot on with the 1Dx. I have no reason to think he's wrong about the 5DIII: 22 mp, Significantly improved autofocus, new battery grip with joystick.

I think Canon's market research showed their customers happy with 21 mp, but wanting better autofocus, higher ISO, low noise and better dynamic range. I think Nikon's market research showed people were happy with their ISO, noise, autofocus and dynamic range, but wanted better resolution. 

Nikon may have overcompensated for their past megapixel shortcomings. Maybe Canon will overcompensate in autofocus, noise, ISO and dynamic range.

It will be very interesting if the two major manufacturers really do go in different directions.


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## awinphoto (Feb 7, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously, the higher the MP, the more noise you are going to get at high ISO, or at least the more the noise will be magnified.
> ...



The more MP, the higher the pixel density of the sensor and you are going to get increased noise throughout the ISO range... you are going to get more detail as well, but see the 7D if you have any doubts about my statements... People have on this very forum griped about ISO noise on a 18MP crop sensor at ISO 100?!? You can combat this slightly with new processors, Digic for canon, expeed for nikon and the conversion software, but it is what it is.


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## awinphoto (Feb 7, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Canon Rumors guy was spot on with the 1Dx. I have no reason to think he's wrong about the 5DIII: 22 mp, Significantly improved autofocus, new battery grip with joystick.
> 
> I think Canon's market research showed their customers happy with 21 mp, but wanting better autofocus, higher ISO, low noise and better dynamic range. I think Nikon's market research showed people were happy with their ISO, noise, autofocus and dynamic range, but wanted better resolution.
> 
> ...



+1


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## unruled (Feb 7, 2012)

in the last 2 years canon has been raving about how photogs have been asking for high MP. they went from 10->~18. it would seem weird to me if suddenly they say 18 ( or 22) is enough.

and Nikon who stayed behind on lower MPs for years now leapfrogs.


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## K-amps (Feb 7, 2012)

I do think Nikon overcompensated, but it also has to do with what Sony could deliver in terms of sensors. Often the design is limited by the Technology/ supply chain available to a manufacturer. Nikon wanted to respond to the market with a high MP body(s)... Sony made the sensor available to them and they went for it. 

In case of Canon, I think they realize that the 18-22mp is the sweet spot for enough resolution/DR/ISO/Noise/Airydisc. I think they will stay at this level for a while. This optimum combinition can satisfy a very high number of customers.

If CR Guy's numbers are spot on.... I have my funds saved up. I will pull the plug on the 5D3 as soon as pre-orders are available!


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## awinphoto (Feb 7, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > The more MP, the higher the pixel density of the sensor and you are going to get increased noise throughout the ISO range... you are going to get more detail as well, but see the 7D if you have any doubts about my statements... People have on this very forum griped about ISO noise on a 18MP crop sensor at ISO 100?!? You can combat this slightly with new processors, Digic for canon, expeed for nikon and the conversion software, but it is what it is.
> ...



That's why the 5d2 has about a 1.3 stop advantage in high ISO?


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## pedro (Feb 7, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Canon Rumors guy was spot on with the 1Dx. I have no reason to think he's wrong about the 5DIII: 22 mp, Significantly improved autofocus, new battery grip with joystick.



Hopefully he's again. I am all for a mini 1Dx. Time will tell 8)


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## Picsfor (Feb 7, 2012)

If Canon want my money to upgrade my 5D2's, they either have to bring the 1Dx to street at about £4k or just over - or release a successor to the 5D2 that has improved AF, Dual Memory Card Slot and improved ISO. Oh, and the sweetener would be that BG with the duplicated joystick!

I don't need more MP, i don't need a higher frame rate, i don't need a pro body or the extra weather sealing that comes with a pro body. All that the 5D2 offer suits me a treat except for the AF. But that's why i said it would need the other improvements, because i wouldn't trade up just for improved AF that comes with, say, 9 full cross AF points.

My original thoughts about MP were founded when i took my first portrait shot with the 5D2 - 21mp is plenty enough, if not a little too much. For all other areas it's acceptable - but i wouldn't want to go any higher, not until i've upped my iMac with the latest all singing all dancing model and Adobe LR 4, 5 or 6!


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## DBCdp (Feb 7, 2012)

A higher MP sensor will not give more image noise than a lower MP sensor at high ISO. The image quality will be better for the higher MP at final image.
About the 7D it outperforms 5Dmk2 per area unit at high ISO.
[/quote]

I have shot weddings recently with the 5D, 7D and 5D MkII, the 7D images in the various wedding settings failed to match even the 5D Classic in image quality. Argue what you will, I have thousands of pictures that tell the real story.


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## wickidwombat (Feb 7, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > The more MP, the higher the pixel density of the sensor and you are going to get increased noise throughout the ISO range... you are going to get more detail as well, but see the 7D if you have any doubts about my statements... People have on this very forum griped about ISO noise on a 18MP crop sensor at ISO 100?!? You can combat this slightly with new processors, Digic for canon, expeed for nikon and the conversion software, but it is what it is.
> ...



I dont think so, I REALLY wanted the 7D IQ to be better than my 1D mk3 so i could put the beast out as a backup and have a smaller camera with the 17-55 f2.8 for weddings but when I compared the IQ of final images i just wasn't satisfied with the 7D I am eagerly looking to see what the 7D2 does though. So for me the best upgrade path for that body right now is a 1Dmk4


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## CrimsonBlue (Feb 7, 2012)

Canon doesn't respond -- it releases what has been in the pipeline for 2+ years. You can't retool a whole set of features a la carte. 

With the unnamed super high-end video and unannounced still backs, it wouldn't make sense for the 5D to go much past 25MP -- especially if that draws attention to the MP difference with the 1DX. They are both full-frame, so Canon can't be two-faced in the approach to MP. 

Methinks an 18-24MP body with slightly improved AF, but nothing like the D800.


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## te4o (Feb 7, 2012)

I don't know how Canon can respond to this camera without making a huge leap in in-camera IQ improvement. 
Read and see here http://cliffmautner.typepad.com/ - the guy states NO Flash, no exposure compensation... Well, if the next gen DSLR are like this then ... my goodness ! Seems that there is a lot of automatic adjustments the D800 does to improve/compensate for any high ISO noise. Yes, there will be noise but heck, the 5D2 crowd has been putting up with it quite well up till now. 
Let's just hope Canon as a big camera manufacturer does not disappoint with the bells and whistles - there appears to be a lot more to digital imaging nowadays than just MP, AF points and noise management. I hope there are DIGIC5 applications in camera that will at least match the D800's.


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## te4o (Feb 8, 2012)

Or Canon should simply respond by engineering an EF-to-Nikon lens adapter...  8) ??? :


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## Stu_bert (Feb 8, 2012)

Just like Nikon is pursuing multiple offerings, so is Canon. These have been in development for the past 3 years, and the tech is being released for the current generation of bodies just as the new projects kick off for the next gen in 2014/2015.

Canon perhaps has it more difficult as it is producing both the sensor & supporting processors, whereas for at least a significant amount, Nikon uses Sony sensors. Nikon only has the imaging business, and their focus not unreasonably results in aggressive products - which is good for everyone. And Sony still want to play heavily in the digital camera market for all sorts of reasons which is also good for competition.

My guess is there will be 2 further Canon dSLRs this year. One as CR guy states in March and a "larger MP" one in the Autumn if the D800 goes well.

I think the March release will aim squarely at a 24MP camera from Nikon / Sony. Just not sure about the FF/APS-C piece. I think this will be a different camera to try and disrupt Nikon.

How large a MP the autumn release will be does depend on the success of Nikon, but clearly a newer version of the 7D sensor upsized to FF with better processing by a Digic 5+ will probably stand them well.

I don't think Canon is panicking in any way, they're just playing cat n mouse with Nikon & Sony. Some of the participants in this forum, clearly are more worried than Canon


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## sjprg (Feb 8, 2012)

Regardless of all the blah, blah, go look at the published 30 MB jpegs from the D800E. The proof is in the pudding. If Canon doesn't respond by April they have just lost another customer. My 1DSIII can't hold a candle to even the jpegs out of the D800E. I've shot Canons 35s all my adult life, but I will soon be gone to Nikon. Mamiya MF you better look out. DSLRs are closeing fast. AND there are a lot more landscape photographers than the head in the sand mainstream posters realize.


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## V8Beast (Feb 8, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> This is probably why the D800 is no better ISO capabilities as the 5d2 albeit it's 15 MP more.



I'm probably the only person on here that's actually impressed by this. The 5DII is a stunning performer in the ISO department. The fact that the D800 can offer similar ISO performance despite having 15 extra megapixels is no small feat. The D700 and 5DII were similar ISO wise, so I tip my hat to Nikon for tripling the resolution from 12 to 36 megapixels without increasing noise. 

Honestly, I'd be happy with a mere 1 stop ISO improvement in the 5DIII compared to the 5DII, and this is coming from someone who shoots in low light all the time  That's just a testament to how good the 5DII already is in low light.


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## aaronh (Feb 8, 2012)

All I can say is it's going to be a long three weeks...


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## cliffwang (Feb 8, 2012)

I will just wait for 5D3 announcement and then decide to go with 5D3 or D800.


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## V8Beast (Feb 8, 2012)

te4o said:


> I don't know how Canon can respond to this camera without making a huge leap in in-camera IQ improvement.
> Read and see here http://cliffmautner.typepad.com/ - the guy states NO Flash, no exposure compensation... Well, if the next gen DSLR are like this then ... my goodness ! Seems that there is a lot of automatic adjustments the D800 does to improve/compensate for any high ISO noise. Yes, there will be noise but heck, the 5D2 crowd has been putting up with it quite well up till now.
> Let's just hope Canon as a big camera manufacturer does not disappoint with the bells and whistles - there appears to be a lot more to digital imaging nowadays than just MP, AF points and noise management. I hope there are DIGIC5 applications in camera that will at least match the D800's.



Wow. Those D800 samples have a very 5D-like look to them. I wonder how much post processing was done, but the color, contrast, and DR is stunning!


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## RedEye (Feb 8, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > This is probably why the D800 is no better ISO capabilities as the 5d2 albeit it's 15 MP more.
> ...



I'm impressed too, and I can tell by some of the video that the entire user interface is improved, and I that's a big step in the whole user experience. With medium format the outcome is fantastic, and the user experince is lousy - I mean really, try explaining that stuff in your carryon luggage in cuba...


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## V8Beast (Feb 8, 2012)

sjprg said:


> Regardless of all the blah, blah, go look at the published 30 MB jpegs from the D800E. The proof is in the pudding. If Canon doesn't respond by April they have just lost another customer. My 1DSIII can't hold a candle to even the jpegs out of the D800E. I've shot Canons 35s all my adult life, but I will soon be gone to Nikon.



I'm in the same boat. I've been looking to upgrade my 1DsIII, and the 1Dx doesn't suite my needs. During the "rumor" stage, the D800 seemed like a nice upgrade to my current body, and real world specs and sample images are living up to the hype. I'll wait to see how Canon specs out the 5DIII before making a final decision. I've researched how much I can sell my Canon gear for on ebay, and the money I'll have to spend to replicate my setup with equivalent Nikon glass and the D800 is very palatable.


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## Bob_McBob (Feb 8, 2012)

Where's the "slightly higher resolution 5D2 with some upgraded features and 9 point AF" option?

At this point I am prepared to be horribly let down by Canon. Perhaps I will get a pleasant surprise. Perhaps not, considering the number of vocal 5D2 users who would seemingly be happy with 1 point AF.


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## RedEye (Feb 8, 2012)

Bob_McBob said:


> Where's the "slightly higher resolution 5D2 with some upgraded features and 9 point AF" option?
> 
> At this point I am prepared to be horribly let down by Canon. Perhaps I will get a pleasant surprise.



I think we're at that point in the movie where the good guy gets cornered, the clown is blowing things up, and beleif is in question. 

Good thing this movie is about 4 hours long


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## BDD (Feb 8, 2012)

Canon, should respond by doing their own thing. Being original in their approach. Not getting caught up in a MP war. 

Just stick to the most recently mentioned rumoured specs here on CR but add more stops of high ISO. At least to 12,800. Or better yet borrow from the 1D-X and give us 100-51,200 native ISO in the 5D3. All for an introductory asking price of $2700 USD. 

This is going to be a long month. Waiting for Canon to make the announcement.  Make people like me happy Canon!!


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## moreorless (Feb 8, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously, the higher the MP, the more noise you are going to get at high ISO, or at least the more the noise will be magnified.
> ...



This is often repeated but to me the comparisons between the new Sony 24 MP crop sensor and the old 16 MP one seems to show that it wasnt the case. When the former was down rezed to the latters size it was clearly still the noiser of the two.

Personally I'd be looking to buy a high MP body if I did upgrade to FF but I do question how much of a market there is for that. The really high end studio/landscape users will go MF, the wedding photographers will I'd guess want more ISO first and will the typical amature user print 30X20 to make use of such resolution? will he be willing to deal with diffraction becoming a big issue?

To me if the the 5D mk3 stats we've seen are correct then it does seem to hint that the D800 has caught Canon a bit on the hop(not now but whenever they discovered its stats) and has convinced them to shift across more of the 1DX features than they were planning to. Ultimately I'd guess losing a few 1DX sales is less important to them than potentially having users switch brands or indeed tempt Nikon users who arent satisifed with a high MP body to do so.


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## torger (Feb 8, 2012)

I repeat this message now and then here -- up to ISO6400 small pixels performs well. Only at ISO12800 and above current tech requires large pixels to perform well. So if you don't feel the need to shoot at ISO12800 - ISO51200 you should not need to be worried about high pixel count. Canon also have the sRAW and mRAW formats so you can get reduced size RAW files when you don't want the bulk of the resolution.

My guess though is that 5D3 will be a slow/crippled 1DX, and compared to D800 have less resolution (20-22 MP), less advanced AF, higher fps (6-7), slightly better ISO performance but still no setting above ISO25600 to avoid competing with the 1DX.


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## darkmatter2k12 (Feb 8, 2012)

I am not sure we need something similar to Nikon d800. 21-24 mp is ok if coupled with excellent high iso performance. When i saw Nikon d800 sample images first reaction was - wow, its amazing. But carefully examining high iso images changed my mind. I think D800 is excellent for low ISO studio shots, but not as versatile as all-around camera (for wedding for example). It is slow considering frame rate. But if Canon 5d mark 2 replacement will be released with a same ugly auto focus i will jump to Nikon boat without any regret.


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## Astro (Feb 8, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> The difference in high ISO nosie is less than the difference in size so yes the 7D outperforms 5Dmk2, in this regard, per area unit.



you compare two different sensor generations.

im more interested in how a 22 MP FF sensor and a 36 MP FF senor of the SAME generation compare.


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## Ivar (Feb 8, 2012)

I myself am currently pretty sensitive about the Canon's next step - this time any form of modesty is not going to do it for me. Nothing should feel like "holding back". It is not necessary to have an SLR for the sake of SLR, it must make a (photographic) statement.


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## briansquibb (Feb 8, 2012)

Glass is still more important than the sensor. I think better glass is the way forward - the sensor technology is going to improve but I suspect in small steps over a period of time. I am not convinced that in normal shooting that a 1DX will be much better in practical terms (ie normal large prints) than a 1Ds3 or a 1d4. There may be some extra shots you can take in the extreme cases - but that is all. 

Went shooting at the theatre last night. 5DII + 400f/2.8 @iso 1600 - fantastic quality. Would a 1DX or D800 improve things? I doubt it as I was shooting with the performers taking the full frame. AF on outer points worked well too (high contrast under theatre lights)

Only downside was that I came hom to find my PC broken (think it is the SSD failed). Good job all my data is backed up 8) 8) 8)


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## Mr.Magic (Feb 8, 2012)

te4o said:


> I don't know how Canon can respond to this camera without making a huge leap in in-camera IQ improvement.
> Read and see here http://cliffmautner.typepad.com/ - the guy states NO Flash, no exposure compensation... Well, if the next gen DSLR are like this then ... my goodness ! Seems that there is a lot of automatic adjustments the D800 does to improve/compensate for any high ISO noise. Yes, there will be noise but heck, the 5D2 crowd has been putting up with it quite well up till now.
> Let's just hope Canon as a big camera manufacturer does not disappoint with the bells and whistles - there appears to be a lot more to digital imaging nowadays than just MP, AF points and noise management. I hope there are DIGIC5 applications in camera that will at least match the D800's.



These results are amazing!
Whatever MP Canon includes in the new 5D, they also have to include:
- AF and exposure metering based on face recognition as in the D800 --> this is incredibly well working looking at the pictures mentioned in the link above, this without exposure compensation! I want this!
- 100% viewfinder
- include crop continuous shooting mode at higher fps
- dual card slot
- decent amount of cross type AF sensors, I don't care about the amount of non-cross type

All this is about a huge increase in useability, which I really highly value.
I never thought I was going to say this, but if they don't include many of these elements, I have to choose for the D800.

(Situation: still stuck with 350D, but with L lenses, rented the 5DII many times, so for me this year I'm choosing which new camera I'll have for the next 5 years)


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## Canon-F1 (Feb 8, 2012)

i am in no way interested in the D800.

but i think it´s a nice camera and im happy that it´s released.
especially with this price.

as many new DSLR buyers with no glass (and therfore not bound to a brand) will look at the D800 and say "WOW .... 36 MP " canon has to compete with that price.


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## Canon-F1 (Feb 8, 2012)

Mr.Magic said:


> Read and see here http://cliffmautner.typepad.com/ - the guy states NO Flash, no exposure compensation...



i only hope the ugly "eye whitening" in his pictures is done in post and not in camera... lol.


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## briansquibb (Feb 8, 2012)

This is turning out to be a grass is greener fest.

Just ask - do you need a new camera before Canon announce their new models


Face recognition metering - gimic, nice gimic but that is all


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## Ricku (Feb 8, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Face recognition metering - gimic, nice gimic but that is all


Gimic? It can be a very usefull tool for extreme situations where light changes rapidly between shots.

I have just seen / read a first impression on this so called "gimic". Looks like a very nice feature to have.
http://cliffmautner.typepad.com/

Are you perhaps one of the many who called live view a gimic, when it was introduced?


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## nicku (Feb 8, 2012)

Regarding the response from canon....


I said in the past and I'll say it again; the 1D4 have 16MP using a APS-H sensor. Upgrade that APS-H sensor to FF and you will get around 27MP on a full frame sensor. If the new 5D will have a 28MP sensor and 1D4 high ISO performance than will ''destroy'' the Nikon D800.


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## pedro (Feb 8, 2012)

Way to go. But would this include the new sensor technology they applied with the 1Dx? I am not a tech. Or is the new sensor beyond that price range, as a league of its own? Would be a great cam ISO wise! Price tag? +/- $ 3000?


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## K-amps (Feb 8, 2012)

aaronh said:


> All I can say is it's going to be a long three weeks...



+1  Verrry long !


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## Randl (Feb 8, 2012)

I think 5D series are studio cameras(e.g. no fast AF). The most important thing should be tonal range and DD. After that - MP. Less important things are AF, video and ISO. No AA filter(maybe optional) would be nice too.

From the other hand, I expect one more FF model (3D or 6D). Budget camera, 40+ MP monster or something else.


----------



## K-amps (Feb 8, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Glass is still more important than the sensor. I think better glass is the way forward - the sensor technology is going to improve but I suspect in small steps over a period of time. I am not convinced that in normal shooting that a 1DX will be much better in practical terms (ie normal large prints) than a 1Ds3 or a 1d4. There may be some extra shots you can take in the extreme cases - but that is all.
> 
> Went shooting at the theatre last night. 5DII + 400f/2.8 @iso 1600 - fantastic quality. Would a 1DX or D800 improve things? I doubt it as I was shooting with the performers taking the full frame. AF on outer points worked well too (high contrast under theatre lights)
> 
> Only downside was that I came hom to find my PC broken (think it is the SSD failed). Good job all my data is backed up 8) 8) 8)



+1 to you .... thanks for reminding me. xxx GB's being backed up as we speak.


----------



## Mr.Magic (Feb 8, 2012)

scrappydog said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Face recognition metering - gimic, nice gimic but that is all
> ...




It's an extremely usefull feature, excellent for outdoor portraits, wedding photography, etc.
If you look at the results Cliff Matuner reached with it (http://cliffmautner.typepad.com/), it's really awesome, getting this without exposure compensation.




K-amps said:


> aaronh said:
> 
> 
> > All I can say is it's going to be a long three weeks...
> ...



Way too long! The announcement later this month is still just a rumour, as long as we don't see any invitations for events or any leaked pictures, the announcement will not be there soon I think..


----------



## Axilrod (Feb 8, 2012)

EYEONE said:


> First off, I don't think Canon is going to be responding to anything. They are likely not surprised and have known about what the D800 was going to be long before we did. But they are probably planning to release a high MP DSLR in the coming year anyway regardless of what the D800 turned out to be. I don't think Canon is jumping to their feet trying to figure out what to do about a 36mp SLR ......
> 
> Even though 30+mp doesn't appeal to me in the slightest I recognize that some people need or want it.



I agree completely, it's funny how some people on the forum think that they know something that a multi-billion dollar, international corporation doesn't know. 

And I agree about some people wanting 30+ megapixels, it's the same type of people that lift their trucks 2 feet and put 4 foot tires on it.......it's not going to make your Wang bigger no matter how many megapixels it is.


----------



## briansquibb (Feb 8, 2012)

Ricku said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Face recognition metering - gimic, nice gimic but that is all
> ...



The was a very unnecessary and unfounded personal comment. To have your view of face recognition is fine but to try to smear me is not. 

I find liveview very useful if you want to know. 

With face recongnition I have worked out how to place the AF point on a face - and that is where the metering is done, varying light conditions or not. So I wont be going to Nikon because my 1D4 is missing this 'vital' function.


----------



## briansquibb (Feb 8, 2012)

Mr.Magic said:


> It's an extremely usefull feature, excellent for outdoor portraits, wedding photography, etc.
> If you look at the results Cliff Matuner reached with it (http://cliffmautner.typepad.com/), it's really awesome, getting this without exposure compensation.



I am mystified why you think that face recognition is vital to take pictures like this without exposure compensation


----------



## ghstark (Feb 8, 2012)

5D MK3 just need improved AF,Twin CF Card Slots and better DR that would do it for me,Who need 36mp? My 5D Mk2 still takes Great Images and the Nikon D800 will not change that.


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## WarStreet (Feb 8, 2012)

I have faith in Canon rumors guy. He was often right, and his CR2 rumor of the 5DIII being a mini/crippled 1DX seems a good possibility. I really don't expect anything less than those rumored specs, so I vote for the minority, the mini/crippled 1DX.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 8, 2012)

Axilrod said:


> EYEONE said:
> 
> 
> > First off, I don't think Canon is going to be responding to anything. They are likely not surprised and have known about what the D800 was going to be long before we did. But they are probably planning to release a high MP DSLR in the coming year anyway regardless of what the D800 turned out to be. I don't think Canon is jumping to their feet trying to figure out what to do about a 36mp SLR ......
> ...



You assume that no big corporation has ever made disastrous decisions or been too afraid of hurting internal market segmentation (Kodak) or failed hah. Companies, even big ones fail all the time. That said, don't read too much into that, I don't exactly foresee Canon closing shop later this year ;D.


----------



## Edwin Herdman (Feb 9, 2012)

Silly poll options.

I'm almost concerned that the new G1-X seems to have a sensor merely in line with 2009 APS-C cameras, but maybe they're just stretching the lifespan of tech on that one (doesn't really make sense unless they're purposely starting out modestly since the market is pretty much wide open there).

Not really worried about the high-end. The D800/D800E look okay - resolution is better than the Sony 24MP sensor pics I've seen, as it should, but if the 7D's sensor is more closely packed, I think this camera is merely a small step ahead of the 7D, per-pixel (and yes, this is probably a more reasonable time to use that comparison, even though it won't be exact because of the differences between a larger and smaller sensor with respect to heat generation, power use, readout times, and so on).

Nikon's EXPEED III processor seems pretty capable here - frame rates nearly in line with the 7D, which is already very quick.

If Nikon goes with $6000 for the body, that would seem to give Canon a lot of wiggle room to update the 5D. It would be interesting to see how much improvement Canon could put into a new 5D while keeping the same price; the $6000 body option seems covered by the 1D X.


----------



## psolberg (Feb 9, 2012)

I think the poll speaks to the majority that want what would be a modern version of what nikon shooters got in 2008. arguments will off course be made, as they were made in 2008 that the lower resolution of the two cameras is not suited for some type of application. But the reality is that they are better than anything before them and plenty of people were making a living with far less, thus renders all said arguments bogus. 

I agree the right choice is for a low MP body, and I still think 20MP or less is where canon should land to keep things interesting. Canon needs to take things in a new direction to attract people. The days where video was unique to canon are over and with increasing competition in the real high end video segment, the free lunch is over. dslrs can go back to taking stills seriously and dynamic range remains an area to improve dramatically now that ISO and MP are enough for all but the obsessed.




Edwin Herdman said:


> Silly poll options.
> 
> 
> If Nikon goes with $6000 for the body, that would seem to give Canon a lot of wiggle room to update the 5D. It would be interesting to see how much improvement Canon could put into a new 5D while keeping the same price; the $6000 body option seems covered by the 1D X.



where are you getting 6K from? the D800 is a mere $2999 bucks.


----------



## Mr.Magic (Feb 9, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Mr.Magic said:
> 
> 
> > It's an extremely usefull feature, excellent for outdoor portraits, wedding photography, etc.
> ...



It's not vital, it's handy. You can switch from one shot to another without having to over/under expose manually for different situations, or to zoom in or use spot metering to meter on the face/subject. With this feature you can keep your framing and it automatically takes the exposure on the face = easier + faster + more flexible

Today I just read in the specific details of the camera Face recognition AF would only be able in Live view, well, that's kind of a bummer  Still, it's nice!


----------



## briansquibb (Feb 9, 2012)

Mr.Magic said:


> Today I just read in the specific details of the camera Face recognition AF would only be able in Live view, well, that's kind of a bummer  Still, it's nice!



I would guess it would be used more by video shooters rather than stills then 8) 8) 8)


----------



## KeithR (Feb 9, 2012)

Mr.Magic said:


> With this feature you can keep your framing and it automatically takes the exposure on the face = easier + faster + more flexible



And this helps wildlife/architecture/macro/motor sport/plant/landscape/product photographers how, exactly?

There's a whole _world_ of photography out there that doesn't involve shoving a camera in someone's face - I imagine that Canon's decision to regard face recognition as a low priority reflects its Real World value...

And yes, it's a gimmick (I've always found that Nikon users like gimmicks). If a given photographer "needs" the "benefits" described above, perhaps they're in the wrong game.


----------



## Mr.Magic (Feb 9, 2012)

KeithR said:


> Mr.Magic said:
> 
> 
> > With this feature you can keep your framing and it automatically takes the exposure on the face = easier + faster + more flexible
> ...



The _wildlife/architecture/macro/motor sport/plant/landscape/product photographers _ can use another AF mode 
Come on, as if a high fps, or spot metering, or 61 af points, or high iso's are useful for every type of photographer. It's just an extra option that's nice


----------



## funkboy (Feb 9, 2012)

Not that this is particularly relevant to the parent topic, but personally I'd be happy with 10-12 1Dx pixels in an APS-C camera with a viewfinder a little better than the 7D (if that's is possible).

I think the yearning for FF is mostly based on:

- very low noise floor at high ISO
- great viewfinder image
- shallow DoF

If the first two could be done as well as the 5D in a crop camera, then I think the DoF available at APS-C focal lengths is an acceptable compromise for a whole lot of people.


----------



## Astro (Feb 9, 2012)

dilbert said:


> I can imagine the D800 causing a fair amount of angst at Canon.



yeah sure.. they are completely suprised by the new nikon model. lol
canon knows what nikon is doing and vice versa. 

canon could produce a 100 MP sensor if they wanted. they have proven that years ago.
unlike nikon who has to rely on other sensor manufacturers.


----------



## Maui5150 (Feb 9, 2012)

dilbert said:


> The price ranges are wrong. Anything under 30MP will need to be no more than $2500, probably closer to $2000. Look at the flack Canon has received for the 1DX's pricing because of Nikon's D4, even though it has more megapixels.
> 
> I can imagine the D800 causing a fair amount of angst at Canon.



How many MP does the 1DX have? How about the D4?

Hmmm... Those are TWO cameras, one from each manufacturer, and BOTH are DOUBLE your $2500 target and triple your "closer to $2000" range.

Geee... How can BOTH Canon and Nikon even think of selling $6000 cameras that are LESS than 20 MP when a $3000 36.3 MP has just been announced.

Maybe... Just maybe... there is something more to these cameras than size of MP...


----------



## CJRodgers (Feb 9, 2012)

What is a likely improvement to DR?


----------



## Astro (Feb 9, 2012)

Maui5150 said:


> Maybe... Just maybe... there is something more to these cameras than size of MP...



nah... MP are the most important thing .. we all know that.


----------



## torger (Feb 9, 2012)

CJRodgers said:


> What is a likely improvement to DR?



I don't think one should as a RAW shooter expect too much in terms of DR. I think most improvements have been made in the built-in noise-reduction algorithms for making JPEGs, and only a minor improvement will be seen in RAW measurements (Dxomark style), say ~1/3 - ~1/2 stop or so. Problem is I don't think Canon has the technology to match the best low noise sensors, not on low or high ISOs. But when you are shooting noisy pictures -- at ISO6400+ everything is noisy -- a little bit more or less noise probably does not matter much to most, so Canon don't need to be best.

We'll see when actual measurements on the 1DX appears what we can expect.


----------



## altenae (Feb 9, 2012)

Wel they respond with nice clean images.....instead of NOISE in ISO 320...yeah...

Nice url here

http://fakechuckwestfall.wordpress.com/author/fcwestfall/


----------



## KeithR (Feb 9, 2012)

altenae said:


> Nice url here
> <snip>



More like "*another example of an internet muppet who thinks that comparing a 36mp sensor against an 18mp sensor using 100% crops from each is s fair comparison*"...

Don't get me wrong - I have no interest whatsoever in the D800 or "what it means for Canon", and I'm less than impressed from the IQ I've seen from it so far (although it's a preview model, so things may well change) but I strongly suspect that this particular internet muppet is clueless, or dishonest, or both (imagine that!)

He clearly has an agenda where an increase in megapixels is concerned though, which (_along with the entire rest of his site_ - anyone who talks up the Darwin Wiggett review of the 7D, is a cretin) displays his ignorance.

In any event, without a clear statement of his comparison methodology, that site is a useless reference point, I'm afraid.


----------



## kenraw (Feb 9, 2012)

I think their are a lot of photographers in the situation were they want to move to full frame but the dilema is that the 5dmk2 is a bit long in the tooth and has sub par AF, The 1Dx looks amazing but the price is going to be way too much for many people, plus I dont actually think the sample images so far do the 1Dx much justice. The 5dm3 or whatever it will be called seems to be taking for ever to be announced so now nikon have announced the D800 at a reasonable price with a pretty impressive spec I'm not surprised there are a lot of people interested in it. I would like to change but for me I prefer the layout and handling of the canons, but I do prefer the nikons perfomance. My friend has 2 D700's and I can tell you that they knock the socks of the 7D and are better than the 5dmk2 in almost every aspect. I'm always blown away when I use his cameras compared to my 7D's 
I'm sure I speak for a lot of people when all I ask for is a 7D with a full frame sensor and twin CF slots. Thats all I desire. I dont like the nikon menu system or button layout or I would switch tomorrow as I couldnt care less about brand loyalty, I just want a reliable FF camera so I can get on with shooting! 

So please canon lets have this new FF announcement.......


----------



## RuneL (Feb 9, 2012)

kenraw said:


> I think their are a lot of photographers in the situation were they want to move to full frame but the dilema is that the 5dmk2 is a bit long in the tooth and has sub par AF, The 1Dx looks amazing but the price is going to be way too much for many people, plus I dont actually think the sample images so far do the 1Dx much justice. The 5dm3 or whatever it will be called seems to be taking for ever to be announced so now nikon have announced the D800 at a reasonable price with a pretty impressive spec I'm not surprised there are a lot of people interested in it. I would like to change but for me I prefer the layout and handling of the canons, but I do prefer the nikons perfomance. My friend has 2 D700's and I can tell you that they knock the socks of the 7D and are better than the 5dmk2 in almost every aspect. I'm always blown away when I use his cameras compared to my 7D's
> I'm sure I speak for a lot of people when all I ask for is a 7D with a full frame sensor and twin CF slots. Thats all I desire. I dont like the nikon menu system or button layout or I would switch tomorrow as I couldnt care less about brand loyalty, I just want a reliable FF camera so I can get on with shooting!
> 
> So please canon lets have this new FF announcement.......



In my opinion the D700 is pretty incomparable to anything in Canons lineup but the 1D. The 7D and 5D are just too bad regarding many areas in comparison to that. 

And Canon has a fast, reliable, dual CF-slot, full frame camera, it is the 1D X. Get that, save up, get a used one 1Ds?


----------



## KeithR (Feb 9, 2012)

kenraw said:


> My friend has 2 D700's and I can tell you that they knock the socks of the 7D


That's not remotely true if you're cropping, if you have a well-sorted 7D conversion/pp workflow sorted out (I have) and if you appreciate/want/need lots of detail.

I've done umpteen IQ comparisons between my 7D and D700 files, and - at the image level - the 7D lacks for very little, if anything, assuming an effective workflow.

I'm afraid that I have little time in any walk of life for people who assume that because they can't do something, it can't be done - the 7D seems to attract a lot of folk like that.


----------



## thepancakeman (Feb 9, 2012)

KeithR said:


> kenraw said:
> 
> 
> > My friend has 2 D700's and I can tell you that they knock the socks of the 7D
> ...



Trying to understand exactly what you're saying. Does "effective workflow" mean that there are certain "pre-set" post-processing things that need to be done to illicit this result? If indeed that's what you're saying, it would seem to favor the D700: press button="good picture", vs. press button, download to <software>, make x+y+z manipulations="good picture". But perhaps I'm missing part of what you mean? ???


----------



## altenae (Feb 9, 2012)

> it would seem to favor the D700: press button="good picture", vs. press button, download to <software>, make x+y+z manipulations="good picture".



Unbelievable this kind of comments.
And this is a photography forum....sure...


----------



## thepancakeman (Feb 9, 2012)

altenae said:


> > it would seem to favor the D700: press button="good picture", vs. press button, download to <software>, make x+y+z manipulations="good picture".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not quite sure what you're saying. I'm talking about comparing outputs, not "set up lighting, adjust exposure compensation, set focus, set aperature, set WB, get subjects to smile...etc, etc." Yes there is a lot that goes into taking a decent picture, but it didn't seem too much of a stretch that if you're comparing 2 bodies that the same effort in setting up and actually taking the photo would be applied to both.

Maybe you would prefer that I name specific software packages and highlight all of the thousands of PP tweaks that can be made? And how exactly is your comment contributing to the conversation??


----------



## briansquibb (Feb 9, 2012)

RuneL said:


> And Canon has a fast, reliable, dual CF-slot, full frame camera, it is the 1D X. Get that, save up, get a used one 1Ds?



I bought a 1Ds3 as a tactical purchase until the 1DX is a reasonable price. A cracking buy - better IQ than a 5D2, better AF than a 7D, low noise up to its max of iso3200.

It is my walkabout camera now - very good it has proved to be!!

Here is a candid of a young lady I met in a cafe, 

natural light, iso3200, f/5.6, 1/60, [email protected]


----------



## KeithR (Feb 9, 2012)

thepancakeman said:


> But perhaps I'm missing part of what you mean?



I'm saying that - with just a little bit of care and effort on a user's part - it's possible to make images that match the D700 in terms of IQ: perhaps with a D700 it _might_ be easier (although as I suggest, that depends on things like what you're shooting and whether you're focal-length limited), but it's still _easy_ with the 7D.

So spend some time researching which converters get the best out of 7D files (plenty of info about that on the net) and use them - hardly an onerous task.

Then, post process the files intelligently. In terms of the steps and techniques I use, I'm using _exactly_ the same PP workflow I used to use on my 40D: I don't "capture" sharpen on conversion, and instead, sharpen selectively in PP using nothing more complicated than a duplicate layer and the Eraser brush. 

I also apply NR selectively if needed, the same way.

It's _dead_ easy, it's quick, and it's no trouble at all. 

7D files dealt with like this match the likes of the D700 right up the ISO scale.

I've posted 6400 ISO (another) and 12800 ISO images from my 7D before (3200 ISO is _easy_) and they want for _nothing_. Yes they're "only" at web sizes, so you're going to have to trust me when I say that they print really well too.)

If the _little_ bit of extra time my PP involves is too much trouble for some people, that's their problem. I take the view that if it's worth doing, it's worth doing _properly_ - I realise that I may be a minority voice there...

*The exif is in all of those - they're all in low light or "available dark"*.

Suffice to say, the only IQ "problem" the 7D has is that careless sharpening can cause problems: keep away from capture sharpening, and apply such sharpening as you need selectively, and the 7D's IQ is as clean as a whistle _at the image level_ (this last being the final piece of the puzzle - I can pretty much guarantee that people who complain about 7D noise are looking at the files at 100%).


----------



## briansquibb (Feb 9, 2012)

K-amps said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > The price ranges are wrong. Anything under 30MP will need to be no more than $2500, probably closer to $2000. Look at the flack Canon has received for the 1DX's pricing because of Nikon's D4, even though it has more megapixels.
> ...



You are looking at the Canon top dollar price. The street price will come down to just a little more than the 1D4


----------



## thepancakeman (Feb 9, 2012)

KeithR said:


> thepancakeman said:
> 
> 
> > But perhaps I'm missing part of what you mean?
> ...



If it's 3000 images, a "little bit of extra time" adds up pretty quickly.


----------



## KeithR (Feb 9, 2012)

thepancakeman said:


> If it's 3000 images, a "little bit of extra time" adds up pretty quickly.



Can you _really_ name me a circumstance where the need for _great_ IQ (specifically, high levels of detail _and_ low noise), a tight timescale and 3000 images all collide?

It isn't in wedding photography - stellar IQ _really isn't_ a deal-breaker there (I suppose it might be if two photographers were getting married!) and it isn't photojournalism, so what Real World situations exist where my kind of workflow isn't an option?

Bear in mind that at low ISOs (less than 1600 ISO, say), and depending on the intended use of the files, none of that "extra" work might actually be necessary.


----------



## thepancakeman (Feb 9, 2012)

KeithR said:


> thepancakeman said:
> 
> 
> > If it's 3000 images, a "little bit of extra time" adds up pretty quickly.
> ...



750 triathletes each swimming, biking, running, and crossing the finish line. 

You could argue the need/definition for great IQ, but as you yourself said, if it's worth doing, do it right. So if there are options that are comparable without PP, that's a big time saver for a better result.


----------



## KeithR (Feb 9, 2012)

I'd have thought that the biggest issue in that situation is the initial sorting/culling of the files - you're not going to need, use (sell?) all 3,000.

How many images _ in that scenario_ will you eventually end up _using_? Less than 100? Less than 50?


----------



## briansquibb (Feb 9, 2012)

thepancakeman said:


> KeithR said:
> 
> 
> > thepancakeman said:
> ...



Makes me glad that I have the 1Ds3 for this Sundays cross country race with a mere 250 runners - I have 2 hours to get the CD to the organiser


----------



## KeithR (Feb 9, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Makes me glad that I have the 1Ds3 for this Sundays cross country race with a mere 250 runners - I have 2 hours to get the CD to the organiser



No problem with the 7D...


----------



## waving_odd (Feb 9, 2012)

K-amps said:


> What do you guys think Canon will do now? Match Nikon on features (since they probably need a high MP body anyway now that the 1dx is the high DR body) or will they go their own route (22mp but better AF etc).



NL is just fed with an anonymous rumor (maybe just a wishful list if you will):

"_...Years ago, the 1D line split into the 1D and 1Ds - we've had a suggestion (thanks) that this will shortly happen with the 5D - a 5D3 and 5DX.

5D X_

_45MP (With a pixel size similar to the power shot G1X)_
_61 points AF (Similar to the 1DX but simpler)_
_3.4 fps, 100-6400 (50-12800)_
_1 Digic 5+ Digic 4_

_5D mk III_

_22MP_
_61 points AF (Similar to the 1DX but but simpler)_
_6.9 fps, ISO 100-25600(50-51200)_
_1 Digic 5+ Digic 4_
_Best HD video quality of any EOS camera_

_Both over $3k..._"


----------



## 7enderbender (Feb 9, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> RuneL said:
> 
> 
> > And Canon has a fast, reliable, dual CF-slot, full frame camera, it is the 1D X. Get that, save up, get a used one 1Ds?
> ...




That's what I would do if I had the money right now. Frankly, I'm still not clear what might be attractive about the 1Dx over the 1DsIII. And yes, if I was now where I was 18 months ago when I was starting all over from scratch when going digital I would have a very close look at the D800e. No anti-aliasing filter in combination with higher resolution seems pretty interesting. Again, in general I'm quite happy with my 5DII and I see the appeal of the 1DsIII of course. But I'm just saying. A different filter and sensor approach seems to be the way to go. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that also part of the reason why the Leica M9 produces such stunning sharp results?


----------



## kubelik (Feb 9, 2012)

waving_odd said:


> K-amps said:
> 
> 
> > What do you guys think Canon will do now? Match Nikon on features (since they probably need a high MP body anyway now that the 1dx is the high DR body) or will they go their own route (22mp but better AF etc).
> ...



that does seem like a wishlist, the have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too kind of wishlist we all dream up. the Digic 5 + Digic 4 combined is a big red flag to me; I don't know that you would want to pair two processing cores with (what I'm assuming are) different clock speeds together.

bigger question is, does Canon even feel the need to "answer" the D800? the diffraction and low-ISO noise on the samples is fairly frightening, actually. I think most of us here are looking for something in the mid-to-high 20 MP range (24-28 seems like a sweet spot in terms of IQ and resolution) that has some better performance in the high ISOs, higher frame rates, and improved AF. if Canon gives that to us this year, the D800 will sit lonely in the corner for just as long as the D700 did.


----------



## briansquibb (Feb 9, 2012)

KeithR said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Makes me glad that I have the 1Ds3 for this Sundays cross country race with a mere 250 runners - I have 2 hours to get the CD to the organiser
> ...



I expect to be on iso3200 to get the shutter speed high enough.

I sold my two 7Ds because of the poor IQ, something the 1Ds3, 1D4 and 5D2 manage without breaking into a sweat.

When you get high speed action then it is not always possible to get the metering correct everytime , especially in poor light. Easy to do in DPP in one action on the RAW files without inducing noise - but it was not possible with the 7D

If the 7D was so noise free and quick to pp then perhaps you might wonder why the sports togs dont use them


----------



## waving_odd (Feb 9, 2012)

kubelik said:


> that does seem like a wishlist...
> 
> ...bigger question is, does Canon even feel the need to "answer" the D800? the diffraction and low-ISO noise on the samples is fairly frightening, actually. I think most of us here are looking for something in the mid-to-high 20 MP range (24-28 seems like a sweet spot in terms of IQ and resolution) that has some better performance in the high ISOs, higher frame rates, and improved AF. if Canon gives that to us this year, the D800 will sit lonely in the corner for just as long as the D700 did.



Also thought it looks more like wishful thinking...

But if it were the case, these 3 models from the 5D and 1D lines will serve almost all working professionals:

[list type=decimal]
[*]1D X: top tier mission-critical photojournalists who need top-notch AF, FPS, ISO, and decent resolution
[*]5D X: studio/landscape/architecture photogs who need MF level resolution and DR
[*]5D III: wedding/journalist photogs who need high quality AF, ISO, and resolution and DR
[/list]

I think Canon will improve their 7D line to the next level (hopefully almost 1D4 level) for wild life shooters.

Just some random thoughts...


----------



## thepancakeman (Feb 9, 2012)

KeithR said:


> I'd have thought that the biggest issue in that situation is the initial sorting/culling of the files - you're not going to need, use (sell?) all 3,000.
> 
> How many images _ in that scenario_ will you eventually end up _using_? Less than 100? Less than 50?



"Using"= making available to the athletes for personal purchase, so all 3000--which is the culled list out of likely 5000+ shots.

Brain, yup, single sport event with a couple hundred athletes have a whole lot more "breathing" time, but 2 hours to get CD to organize--YIKES!? I try to get a top hundred shots posted by end of the day, but takes the rest of the week to get thru them all. What race are you shooting?


----------



## briansquibb (Feb 9, 2012)

thepancakeman said:


> KeithR said:
> 
> 
> > I'd have thought that the biggest issue in that situation is the initial sorting/culling of the files - you're not going to need, use (sell?) all 3,000.
> ...



This is the cross country organised by our local running club. I process the RAW files in DPP and use DPP to convert to jpg. A pass through PSE for levels for the bulk of the work. Then a 'eyeball check' for the pictures plus any fixes needed (mostly cropping). Produce the DVD with all the 'raw' jpg pictures and off to the club. The club then load them straight into the web site.

My role (unpaid as I am now an amateur) is just to deliver the processed images. The club takes care of the web site and any sales/distribution. 

All done in less than 2 hours. I did it last summer in good light with a 7D and I was very disappointed with the results, did the same in October is worse light with the 1D4 and got nearly 100% keepers (and those I missed I knew I had missed when taking them, usually another runner taking the focus)


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## thepancakeman (Feb 9, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> My role (unpaid as I am now an amateur) is just to deliver the processed images.



Well charge them, and then you're a pro! ;D


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## briansquibb (Feb 9, 2012)

thepancakeman said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > My role (unpaid as I am now an amateur) is just to deliver the processed images.
> ...



Too many issues about charging - and I am not interested in that side either.

I would rather do the work that I want to - did some street pictures today amongst other things - rather than do what some client wants me to do.


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## awinphoto (Feb 9, 2012)

I remember a few months ago someone on this forum was criticizing the 7D as having noise in the sky in his landscape shots and was questioning the 7D's credibility and usability in landscape photography. For the last day, I've heard a lot of people mentioning how much they want Canon to produce a large MP camera for (studio and landscape). For the hell of it, I decided to check out the sample photos of the D800... The photos I saw, all the way from ISO 25K all the way down to ISO 100, all of them I could detect traces of noise the in the static areas of the scenes, whether it be the sky or shadow in the seashore scene, to the backdrop on the woman and wild cat shot, all the way down to the high ISO shots which compared to the 5d2 (i know, it's unfair to compare the two), Does this noise detract others from wanting to use this camera for landscapes, or was the posts a few months ago regarding the 7D nitpicking about nothing, or are you willing to forgive it because it is full frame and 36Mp rather than an 18MP crop camera? Just getting people 2 cents


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## kenraw (Feb 9, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> KeithR said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



+1 on that for sure.

Now I'm not saying you can't get a good result with the 7d in pp because you can, however the pp required becomes incredibly time consuming when you have a couple of thousand wedding images, and you can't cull them down to 50 images for the bride.
I've used a d700 at a wedding alongside my 7d's and yes once pp and printed in the album they look as good as the d700 images, however the pp on the d700 was minimal in comparison, it was more of what effect to add as opposed to stretch the DR in raw then selectively sharpen, selectively NR add detail to areas on the 7d files etc

now before you jump on me about the d700, its not that I want a Nikon its just my friend has two d700's for weddings and lets me borrow one when I know I've got some serious low light situations to deal with. 

maybe s second hand 1dmk3 is a good idea I never considered that option . I would love a 1dx but the launch price would be enough to buy 2 d800's and a lens or 2 5dmk2's and two L lenses

a 5dmk 2 with new AF is all I and many others wish for, please happen soon.


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## kubelik (Feb 10, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> I remember a few months ago someone on this forum was criticizing the 7D as having noise in the sky in his landscape shots and was questioning the 7D's credibility and usability in landscape photography. For the last day, I've heard a lot of people mentioning how much they want Canon to produce a large MP camera for (studio and landscape). For the hell of it, I decided to check out the sample photos of the D800... The photos I saw, all the way from ISO 25K all the way down to ISO 100, all of them I could detect traces of noise the in the static areas of the scenes, whether it be the sky or shadow in the seashore scene, to the backdrop on the woman and wild cat shot, all the way down to the high ISO shots which compared to the 5d2 (i know, it's unfair to compare the two), Does this noise detract others from wanting to use this camera for landscapes, or was the posts a few months ago regarding the 7D nitpicking about nothing, or are you willing to forgive it because it is full frame and 36Mp rather than an 18MP crop camera? Just getting people 2 cents



I shoot a lot of architecture and landscape and it would drive me nuts if I had blue-sky noise when I'm shooting at ISO 100. when you print large, you definitely see that noise. if you use noise reduction, you lose detail in foliage or fine stonework/metalwork. I guess it's a trade-off, since you start with more detail at 36 MP (assuming your lens is adequate) ... I still think something in between the 5DII and the D800 would be ideal.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 10, 2012)

CJRodgers said:


> What is a likely improvement to DR?



Hard to say, Canon has quite a lot of room to improve low ISO DR. They easily have 2 even 3 stops there. I'm not sure if their current basic architecture is capable of more than an extra 1/2 measured and 1 stop real though. Hopefully they have changed things up.

For SNR at middle gray there is a lot less room for improvement without a radically different sensor type or a re-write of the laws of physics. The best camera out there is probably within 1 stop of best that can be done as is already.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 10, 2012)

KeithR said:


> altenae said:
> 
> 
> > Nice url here
> ...



I agree plus he is mixing up 8bit jpg posterization with shadow pattern offset banding, etc. etc. That blog is a total mess. It's also funny how he has gone from like 100% raving against Canon to 100% raving against Nikon. Very bizarre.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 10, 2012)

But apply all those careful steps to the D700 file and then it's better again?




KeithR said:


> thepancakeman said:
> 
> 
> > But perhaps I'm missing part of what you mean?
> ...


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 10, 2012)

kubelik said:


> that does seem like a wishlist, the have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too kind of wishlist we all dream up. the Digic 5 + Digic 4 combined is a big red flag to me; I don't know that you would want to pair two processing cores with (what I'm assuming are) different clock speeds together.



An earlier version of the rumor that had the digic 4 being part of the AF module (ala 1DX) so it's not necessarily nutty, that said the rumor does sound like a guess-wish.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 10, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> My role (unpaid as I am now an amateur) is just to deliver the processed images. The club takes care of the web site and any sales/distribution.
> 
> All done in less than 2 hours. I did it last summer in good light with a 7D and I was very disappointed with the results, did the same in October is worse light with the 1D4 and got nearly 100% keepers (and those I missed I knew I had missed when taking them, usually another runner taking the focus)



So you spend a few hours shooting and then two hours processing and give them away for free for other people who spent basically no time to sell for a profit? Shouldn't they give you a big chunk of the sales? It sounds like they are getting a free sports photographer.


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## briansquibb (Feb 10, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > My role (unpaid as I am now an amateur) is just to deliver the processed images. The club takes care of the web site and any sales/distribution.
> ...



That is correct - that is what I do - I do all types of photography in this way. I get to do an incredible amount of photography for which you could not get any other way

All sales revenue from the cross country event goes back into the development of my local running club.

At the moment I am also doing the same for our local Dickens society as well and the preservation of a house from th 16th century. From my work on our local community web site I also now have full press accreditation which means I get in with my cameras to most events. Cost to me? - a few DVDs a week when I had over the pictures - you cannont buy experience like that.


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## albeit22 (Feb 10, 2012)

If Canon doesn't step up the game on build quality they are going to slowly sink.
I upgraded from a 7d to full frame 5dmarkii and felt like i downgraded. The build quality needs some serious attention.
The memory card door is flimsy with no spring or anything. every time you open it, it just flops around and when its shut it doesn't mate to the body very well and squeaks. Just doesn't leave me feeling very secure.
I don't care if they keep the pixel count where its at but beef up the body and add more weather sealing or i am leaving camp!!!!!!! just my 2 pennies


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## briansquibb (Feb 10, 2012)

albeit22 said:


> If Canon doesn't step up the game on build quality they are going to slowly sink.
> I upgraded from a 7d to full frame 5dmarkii and felt like i downgraded. The build quality needs some serious attention.
> The memory card door is flimsy with no spring or anything. every time you open it, it just flops around and when its shut it doesn't mate to the body very well and squeaks. Just doesn't leave me feeling very secure.
> I don't care if they keep the pixel count where its at but beef up the body and add more weather sealing or i am leaving camp!!!!!!! just my 2 pennies



Weather sealing an issue - get a series 1 then

5DII was not intended as an all weather camera. I guess that the popularity and longevity of the 5DII means that a squeaky door is not a deal breaker for most.

PS I have abused my 5DII for 2 years and it still hangs together and works without fault.

PPS Squeaky things are often cured with a drop of light machine oil


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## Edwin Herdman (Feb 10, 2012)

KeithR said:


> Suffice to say, the only IQ "problem" the 7D has is that careless sharpening can cause problems: keep away from capture sharpening, and apply such sharpening as you need selectively, and the 7D's IQ is as clean as a whistle _at the image level_ (this last being the final piece of the puzzle - I can pretty much guarantee that people who complain about 7D noise are looking at the files at 100%).


Don't forget using a slight (2/3 stop) overexposure to get as much data into the highlight headroom as possible. Of course, that's not a 7D-specific problem, but the 7D's files being clean in other channels cause it to be more noticeable than might be the case on some other cameras.


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## thepancakeman (Feb 10, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Cost to me? - a few DVDs a week when I had over the pictures - you cannont buy experience like that.



But you also cannot buy new gear on that. :-\ 

It sounds like your "work" is somewhat similar to mine (at least regarding the race), but I've managed to get a few bucks back into my pocket to help "support the habit" aka buy new gear. The way I've been doing it is that the race director has free access to all my photos, but sales to the athletes go to me. No expense to the race, plus they get free photos, but I'm getting the experience and not just volunteering and putting $ directly into someone else's pocket. Even on the work I do for my cycling team where I've gotten "wow, how can I pay for this photo" and I tell them just to donate to the team, the bigger ticket purchases (8x10s and a few poster size prints) have the revenue to me.

I like your period shots for the Dickens Society and your street image! Me--I can't seem to shoot anything but sports. :-[


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## briansquibb (Feb 10, 2012)

thepancakeman said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Cost to me? - a few DVDs a week when I had over the pictures - you cannont buy experience like that.
> ...



I dont buy gear from photo income



thepancakeman said:


> I like your period shots for the Dickens Society and your street image! Me--I can't seem to shoot anything but sports. :-[



Thank you - just keep trying - it will work


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 10, 2012)

Hopefully this guy, who knows the specs and has seen, has very different expectations than most of us (and this actually is somewhat possible going by some other things he has said) otherwise it sounds like the answer may be "not very well", he says:

"The marketing mistakes Canon makes repeatedly lately is an understimation of the pace of innovation needed to keep a strong position in the market. The 5D mk II successor, still not announced, will be a disappointment to many."

yikes.

For now I will try to keep the faith though, it just seems to hard to believe they will mess this up even given their recent conservative track record, I don't think they can be THAT out of touch. I hope not.


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## funkboy (Feb 11, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> That blog is a total mess. It's also funny how he has gone from like 100% raving against Canon to 100% raving against Nikon. Very bizarre.



That's why ol' Fake Chuck is so near & dear to our hearts . Takes a lot of guts to be that crazy in such a public manner.


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## psolberg (Feb 11, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> I remember a few months ago someone on this forum was criticizing the 7D as having noise in the sky in his landscape shots and was questioning the 7D's credibility and usability in landscape photography. For the last day, I've heard a lot of people mentioning how much they want Canon to produce a large MP camera for (studio and landscape). For the hell of it, I decided to check out the sample photos of the D800... The photos I saw, all the way from ISO 25K all the way down to ISO 100, all of them I could detect traces of noise the in the static areas of the scenes, whether it be the sky or shadow in the seashore scene, to the backdrop on the woman and wild cat shot, all the way down to the high ISO shots which compared to the 5d2 (i know, it's unfair to compare the two), Does this noise detract others from wanting to use this camera for landscapes, or was the posts a few months ago regarding the 7D nitpicking about nothing, or are you willing to forgive it because it is full frame and 36Mp rather than an 18MP crop camera? Just getting people 2 cents



for the sake of argument let's say the noise is the same (which IMO isnt'. the D800 looks cleaner than the 7D). AT 36MP the noise is lost in the sheer resolution when you print compared to the 7D print. Try it. Resize a D800 file to 18MP. So I fully dissagree that the D800 is not suited for landscape even if noise levels are the same as the 7D because at a whoping 2X times the number of pixels, you get someting in return.


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## Maui5150 (Feb 11, 2012)

psolberg said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > I remember a few months ago someone on this forum was criticizing the 7D as having noise in the sky in his landscape shots and was questioning the 7D's credibility and usability in landscape photography. For the last day, I've heard a lot of people mentioning how much they want Canon to produce a large MP camera for (studio and landscape). For the hell of it, I decided to check out the sample photos of the D800... The photos I saw, all the way from ISO 25K all the way down to ISO 100, all of them I could detect traces of noise the in the static areas of the scenes, whether it be the sky or shadow in the seashore scene, to the backdrop on the woman and wild cat shot, all the way down to the high ISO shots which compared to the 5d2 (i know, it's unfair to compare the two), Does this noise detract others from wanting to use this camera for landscapes, or was the posts a few months ago regarding the 7D nitpicking about nothing, or are you willing to forgive it because it is full frame and 36Mp rather than an 18MP crop camera? Just getting people 2 cents
> ...



If you have to crop it down, that sort of defeats the purpose. And noise is noise. It may not be as apparent when cropped, but by the same time, the image will not have nearly the detail it should... i.e. a decent performing 36 MP shot with low noise versus a cropped down 18 MP shot.


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## wockawocka (Feb 12, 2012)

'How does Canon respond to the D800?'


By flipping two fingers and doing a mooney.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 12, 2012)

Maui5150 said:


> psolberg said:
> 
> 
> > awinphoto said:
> ...



But the point is with higher MP you can either have more detail or the same noise, depending upon what works best for each situation. With lower MP you have no option.


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## Bruce Photography (Feb 13, 2012)

K-amps said:


> I do think Nikon overcompensated, but it also has to do with what Sony could deliver in terms of sensors. Often the design is limited by the Technology/ supply chain available to a manufacturer. Nikon wanted to respond to the market with a high MP body(s)... Sony made the sensor available to them and they went for it.
> 
> In case of Canon, I think they realize that the 18-22mp is the sweet spot for enough resolution/DR/ISO/Noise/Airydisc. I think they will stay at this level for a while. This optimum combinition can satisfy a very high number of customers.
> 
> If CR Guy's numbers are spot on.... I have my funds saved up. I will pull the plug on the 5D3 as soon as pre-orders are available!



According to the Nikon release, the D800 and the D800E use a Nikon developed sensor and NOT one from Sony. Perhaps this is why they were able to finally break free of the low MP sensors and yet keep prices this low. I would expect that Nikon will be able to make whatever kind of sensor they want without being limited by their Sony connection.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 13, 2012)

Bruce Photography said:


> K-amps said:
> 
> 
> > I do think Nikon overcompensated, but it also has to do with what Sony could deliver in terms of sensors. Often the design is limited by the Technology/ supply chain available to a manufacturer. Nikon wanted to respond to the market with a high MP body(s)... Sony made the sensor available to them and they went for it.
> ...



Are we sure it's not a Sony base design with modifications requested by Nikon as in the past? SOmetimes they have called those Nikon developed even though Sony did the bulk of it.


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## poias (Feb 13, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Bruce Photography said:
> 
> 
> > K-amps said:
> ...



SItuation with Nikon-Sony is like Apple-FoxConn. Basically, Nikon designs it, ala Apple, and Foxconn manufactures it, ala Sony.


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## macfly (Feb 13, 2012)

Well since I'll be getting one in the first batch I'll do some direct side by side comparisons with my 1Ds Mklll and can post them here if you're interested, but of course the glass will be a variable too, not just the sensor. Anyhow I need to do it to for myself to know what I'm dealing with, so happy to share.


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## waving_odd (Feb 14, 2012)

The same guy, Masaya Maeda (Chief Executive of Image Communication Products Operations), who talked about Canon mirrorless system invited some CP+ journalists to visit Canon's headquarters in Tokyo.

He commented the following about D800 and 5D2's successor.

"_...Regarding how Canon responds to the competition from Nikon's D800 and the concern of the successor of 5D Mark II, Maeda indicates that although he cannot leak information about un-announced product, the way Canon develops new product is to satisfy the needs of professional photographers. For instance, the introduction of EOS-1D X is to satisfy professional photographers to photoshoot sports events like the Olympics, in terms of their requirement of high FPS and high image quality under high ISO settings. *If Canon thinks the market wants* the high resolution models such as the 30+ MP of Nikon's D800, they can easily develop such products..._"

"_...对于佳能如何应对尼康D800的竞争，以及5DMarkII的后续机型的问题。真容田雅也表示，他虽然不能透露未公布的产品的信息，不过佳能开发新产品是以能够满足专业摄影师需求为目标的。例如，EOS-1D X的推出，就是为了满足职业摄影师在拍摄奥运会等体育运动时对高速连拍，以及高感光度下的高画质的需求。如果佳能认为市场对于像尼康D800这样3000万像素的高像素机型有需求，佳能开发此类产品也非常容易..._"

Here's the original article in Chinese.


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## V8Beast (Feb 21, 2012)

macfly said:


> Well since I'll be getting one in the first batch I'll do some direct side by side comparisons with my 1Ds Mklll and can post them here if you're interested, but of course the glass will be a variable too, not just the sensor. Anyhow I need to do it to for myself to know what I'm dealing with, so happy to share.



Hopefully I'll be getting one of the first batches of the D800 as well. I'll also be doing my own comparisons as I'm particularly interested how the noise and dynamic range of the D800 will stack up to the 1DsIII. That said, I wouldn't bother posting comparisons on here if the D800's images are superior in any way, shape, or form. Facts have a way of really upsetting the fanboys.


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## K-amps (Feb 22, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> macfly said:
> 
> 
> > Well since I'll be getting one in the first batch I'll do some direct side by side comparisons with my 1Ds Mklll and can post them here if you're interested, but of course the glass will be a variable too, not just the sensor. Anyhow I need to do it to for myself to know what I'm dealing with, so happy to share.
> ...



I would like to see them, if you care to post.


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## WarStreet (Feb 22, 2012)

macfly said:


> Well since I'll be getting one in the first batch I'll do some direct side by side comparisons with my 1Ds Mklll and can post them here if you're interested, but of course the glass will be a variable too, not just the sensor. Anyhow I need to do it to for myself to know what I'm dealing with, so happy to share.



When doing the comparison, would you mind to downscale the D800 to the same size of the 1DsIII, so that the comparison will be a realistic one representing the same print size. Thanks.


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