# More EOS 7D Replacement Buzz Going Around [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 9, 2014)

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<p>We’re hearing from more dealers around the globe that the EOS 7D is either “out of stock” or has reached “end of life”. This is all pointing to the obvious conclusion that a replacement to the camera is on the horizon.</p>
<p>We haven’t been told of an exact announcement date, but do expect it in August. If we had to speculate, around August 18 would be our guess.</p>
<p>We have been told that a new STM kit lens is likely with the EOS 7D replacement, along with an L zoom.</p>
<p>No one at CineGear 2014 this past weekend had any insight about a 7D replacement, not even the usual facial expressions when you mention a new product. However, top Canon dealers should be hearing about it soon. We do expect spec relation information to be very tight until well into July.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## Quasimodo (Jun 9, 2014)

Here is to hoping it is paired with a new 100-400


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## Lee Jay (Jun 9, 2014)

A new STM? Hopefully, it'll start at 15mm.

Actually, a 15-60ish/2.8 to replace the 17-55/2.8 would be a smashing release along with a 7D replacement and a 100-400L replacement.

But, I suspect it'll be either another 18-55 type cheap kit lens, or a hyperzoom like the 18-135 or 18-200.


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## Don Haines (Jun 9, 2014)

I find the naysayer's comments to be quite entertaining....

I expect it to be to the 70D, like the 7D was to the 60D. Better AF, better sealing, a bit faster, and about twice the price. Anything more will be a bonus.

Since my 60D is getting long in the tooth, for me the time is right for an upgrade.


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## wickidwombat (Jun 9, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> A new STM? Hopefully, it'll start at 15mm.
> 
> Actually, a 15-60ish/2.8 to replace the 17-55/2.8 would be a smashing release along with a 7D replacement and a 100-400L replacement.
> 
> But, I suspect it'll be either another 18-55 type cheap kit lens, or a hyperzoom like the 18-135 or 18-200.


I think you are right but the canon 18-200 desperately needs an update though, 
the nikkors vr1 and vr2 leave it for dead


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## sanj (Jun 9, 2014)

I think this is not a relevant post. Why would CR post this? It is not saying anything new. 

But I guess Canon is keeping its secrets very well guarded.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jun 9, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> A new STM? Hopefully, it'll start at 15mm.
> Actually, a 15-60ish/2.8 to replace the 17-55/2.8 would be a smashing release along with a 7D replacement and a 100-400L replacement.
> But, I suspect it'll be either another 18-55 type cheap kit lens, or a hyperzoom like the 18-135 or 18-200.


You read my mind. I would love an EF-S 15-60mm F2.8 STM below $ 1000. :-*


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## Chaitanya (Jun 9, 2014)

Skeptical about a new release, although i want to replace my age old 450D with a new camera by the end of this year. :


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## wickidwombat (Jun 9, 2014)

Chaitanya said:


> Skeptical about a new release, although i want to replace my age old 450D with a new camera by the end of this year. :


They would be crazy and miss a nice fat cash cow to not have it out before xmas


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## SwampYankee (Jun 9, 2014)

I think if you keep your eyes peeled you might actually catch a glimpse of any new Canon stuff during the world cup. I'm sure you will not be able to tell much by what the camera looks like but I suspect that the new 7D will be there along with a high mega-pixel pro body.


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## Maximilian (Jun 9, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> _More to come…_


Nice to read, that there is more than speculation.

I'm still suprised, how well Canon is protecting any kind of specs from leaking.
Might be a hint to a really "big thing"... maybe new sensor tech...?

Might also be, that Canon is just playing hide and seek with the competition.


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## mkabi (Jun 9, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> I find the naysayer's comments to be quite entertaining....
> 
> I expect it to be to the 70D, like the 7D was to the 60D. Better AF, better sealing, a bit faster, and about twice the price. Anything more will be a bonus.
> 
> Since my 60D is getting long in the tooth, for me the time is right for an upgrade.



+1



Lee Jay said:


> But, I suspect it'll be either another 18-55 type cheap kit lens, or a hyperzoom like the 18-135 or 18-200.



May be an 18-200, but not another 18-55 or 18-135.
They were both released recently in their STM forms within the last 2 years.


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## NancyP (Jun 9, 2014)

I think that the rumor blogs are an excellent way to keep G.A.S. going. It wouldn't surprise me if Canon delegated rumor spreaders to mumble something not very revealing every few months.


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## dadgummit (Jun 9, 2014)

mkabi said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > I find the naysayer's comments to be quite entertaining....
> ...



The 18-55 and 18-135 are both very good, I really don't think they need replacement. 

A new 17-55 STM would be interesting but I am wondering about the durability of the STM motors compared to USM. If a lens that sells for $300 goes bad it is not too big a deal but most photographers who buy a $1K lens for a crop camera will have it as their one good lens and if that goes bad after a couple of years of use it would be disapointing especially since Canon only gives 1 year for its warranty. 

Just to throw this out there... If Dual pixel tech is ever going to hit full frame cameras like the 5d4 or 6d2 or 4d then FF will need a compatable STM lens too.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jun 9, 2014)

dadgummit said:


> mkabi said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...


Stepper motors have been used for decades on devices like VCR and has great durability. I think the brake system of USM engines are more subject to wear due to heavy usage.


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## ahsanford (Jun 9, 2014)

An STM lens. Really. That's pretty weak for what is presumably a best-in-class APS-C rig in the $2k neighborhood. STM is fine for video, and it's also nice upgrade over the squeaky slow AF motors of the older entry level Rebel kit glass, but 7D2 still shooters would want the speed of USM, right?

Are they legitimately going after pro wildlife/sports guys with this rig or just enthusiasts who want a high burst rate? Surely the days of kitting this with a relatively average lens are over, aren't they? (I recognize that the people drooling over a 7D2 likely already have a lot of glass, but the same could be said at the launch of the 5D3 and _that_ had a decent lens kit option...)

Just riffing here: any chance Canon kits this with a really solid L lens? I recognize that a 24-something zoom lens will be too long on the wide end for a standard zoom. So...

Kit it with a 16-35 F/4L IS?

Kit it with a first-ever L lens in an EF-S mount? An EF-S 15-50 F/4L IS? An L-quality update to the 17-55 F/2.8 IS? 

Kit it with the Sigma 18-35 F/1.8? ;D

- A


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## CANONisOK (Jun 9, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> Kit it with a first-ever L lens in an EF-S mount? An EF-S 15-50 F/4L IS? An L-quality update to the 17-55 F/2.8 IS?


An *EF-S 17-55 f/2.8 L IS STM*? Sounds like a jackalope, but there could be some logic to it. I loved my 17-55mm when I shot APS-C.


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## rs (Jun 9, 2014)

dadgummit said:


> Just to throw this out there... If Dual pixel tech is ever going to hit full frame cameras like the 5d4 or 6d2 or 4d then FF will need a compatable STM lens too.



Good point. We already have the 40, but a slow zoom is the typical deployment of such technology. These EF-S zooms so far been optically very good, and very cheap. Does anyone see an EF 28-135/3.5-5.6 IS STM on the horizon? Nikon recently refreshed their budget full frame variable aperture zoom.


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## ahsanford (Jun 9, 2014)

rs said:


> dadgummit said:
> 
> 
> > Just to throw this out there... If Dual pixel tech is ever going to hit full frame cameras like the 5d4 or 6d2 or 4d then FF will need a compatable STM lens too.
> ...



This is entirely ignorance on my part as the only STM I own is the pancake, so I'll ask:

1) Do any still shooters _who are shooting moving subjects_ use STM glass at all? 

2) Has STM focusing speed improved to catch up with USM speed? 

3) Does STM work well in Servo for moving subjects?

Please educate me, as I think my first go at STM with the pancake was not impressive on those three fronts. That lens is a marvel, but only for static shots in my book.

Maybe more recent STM glass is better?

- A


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## Lee Jay (Jun 9, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> An STM lens. Really. That's pretty weak for what is presumably a best-in-class APS-C rig in the $2k neighborhood. STM is fine for video, and it's also nice upgrade over the squeaky slow AF motors of the older entry level Rebel kit glass, but 7D2 still shooters would want the speed of USM, right?
> 
> Are they legitimately going after pro wildlife/sports guys with this rig or just enthusiasts who want a high burst rate? Surely the days of kitting this with a relatively average lens are over, aren't they? (I recognize that the people drooling over a 7D2 likely already have a lot of glass, but the same could be said at the launch of the 5D3 and _that_ had a decent lens kit option...)



I think it could make a lot of sense. Here's why.

First, I think you're right that many prospective buyers would already have a lot of lenses for shooting stills, and would have little interest in either a cheap kit lens, or one of the L zoom options like the 24-70s or 24-105. However, many of them might have relatively little interest in video and would therefore have few, if any, dedicated video-lenses (STM, wide focal range, usually). Therefore, a higher-quality STM video lens might make sense.

This applies to me. I have plenty of lenses for still shooting (though, the rumored Sigma 24-70/2.0 OS sounds pretty exciting if it's real), but I would be interested in, say, an 18-135STM as my video lens if the 7D replacement comes with some great video features (dual-pixel, hybrid viewfinder, good compression, resolution and windowing options, etc.). Maybe they're even thinking of a power-zoom if this camera is going to have a lot of new video functionality.


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## preppyak (Jun 9, 2014)

wickidwombat said:


> I think you are right but the canon 18-200 desperately needs an update though,
> the nikkors vr1 and vr2 leave it for dead


No doubt it needs an update, but, I wonder if they'd kit that with the new 7D2. I know they kitted the 18-200 with the 50D, but was it ever with the 7D?

I cant imagine they'd update the 28-135 to kit with this; that'd be an odd choice. So maybe the 17-85 or 15-85 would get an STM update?


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## Act444 (Jun 9, 2014)

I take it all ranges will get an "STM" lens. They've got normal (18-55, 18-135), telephoto (55-250), and now wide-angle (10-18). Only things left are super zoom (18-200 or 18-300) and macro. Canon's 18-200 is quite old and lacks USM so I all but expect an STM update of that lens at some point. I think this would be a good time to do so. 




ahsanford said:


> rs said:
> 
> 
> > dadgummit said:
> ...



I have used the 55-250 STM as a test for concerts and animal shooting. I haven't measured it, but to me the STM seems to work just fine, although it feels a tad slower (?) than USM (still significantly quicker than non-USM though). The one thing to keep in mind is that the focus on these STM lenses is electronic, so you can't "full-time manual focus" without power to the camera.


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## HBaekked (Jun 9, 2014)

Most shops in Norway are now out of stock and unable do deliver the EOS 7D.


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## rs (Jun 9, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> This is entirely ignorance on my part as the only STM I own is the pancake, so I'll ask:
> 
> 1) Do any still shooters _who are shooting moving subjects_ use STM glass at all?
> 
> ...



Yeah, the 40 is very impressive bar the focus speed.

If you take STM as a replacement for the buzzy micro motor AF on cheap lenses, it's a nice improvement (although I can only guess about speed as I've never owned one of those lenses). It also doubles up as a nice damped AF system for video, which is why it may get introduced in replacements for lower end USM lenses.

I see no reason why the attributes of STM (slow, progressive AF suitable for natural looking pull focus on video) and those of USM (snappy, near instant AF for stills) can't be combined into one lens. In the meantime, I'd very much like high end photographers lenses to carry on with the current USM tech.


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## ahsanford (Jun 9, 2014)

Act444 said:


> I have used the 55-250 STM as a test for concerts and animal shooting. I haven't measured it, but to me the STM seems to work just fine, although it feels a tad slower (?) than USM (still significantly quicker than non-USM though). The one thing to keep in mind is that the focus on these STM lenses is electronic, so you can't "full-time manual focus" without power to the camera.



I don't want to be a lens snob, but as a still shooter with a bag full of USM glass, I only see STM as an improvement over the non-USM lenses I left behind years ago. I have yet to hear of a single thing it does better than USM for stills.

So STM, for me, says 'for video', and as such, won't be getting any of my money.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jun 9, 2014)

rs said:


> Yeah, the 40 is very impressive bar the focus speed.
> 
> If you take STM as a replacement for the buzzy micro motor AF on cheap lenses, it's a nice improvement (although I can only guess about speed as I've never owned one of those lenses). It also doubles up as a nice damped AF system for video, which is why it may get introduced in replacements for lower end USM lenses.
> 
> I see no reason why the attributes of STM (slow, progressive AF suitable for natural looking pull focus on video) and those of USM (snappy, near instant AF for stills) can't be combined into one lens. In the meantime, I'd very much like high end photographers lenses to carry on with the current USM tech.



Any chance the AF drive could be USM or STM selectable by a switch? Lightning quick for stills and smooth for video?

Or is that such a foundational lens design consideration that you can't do both?

- A


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## Act444 (Jun 9, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> Act444 said:
> 
> 
> > I have used the 55-250 STM as a test for concerts and animal shooting. I haven't measured it, but to me the STM seems to work just fine, although it feels a tad slower (?) than USM (still significantly quicker than non-USM though). The one thing to keep in mind is that the focus on these STM lenses is electronic, so you can't "full-time manual focus" without power to the camera.
> ...



As a stills shooter I prefer USM. But as you said, STM is a nice improvement over the stiff, noisy AF motor it replaces. So it's good when viewed in that respect, but it is no replacement for USM (and probably why we haven't seen an "L" lens with STM at this point).

But, even with that said, I think the only times you'll notice a difference are when 1) you are tracking a moving subject in Servo (less snappy although still quick enough in most situations) and 2) when manual focusing, unless you have an electronic USM lens like the 85 1.2. 

I wouldn't recommend any of the STM lenses for serious (stills) work but for everyday/travel use, I gotta say they're quite nice...pleasantly surprised. Good if you don't want to risk more expensive stuff on a trip, etc.


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## ScottyP (Jun 10, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> An STM lens. Really. That's pretty weak for what is presumably a best-in-class APS-C rig in the $2k neighborhood. STM is fine for video, and it's also nice upgrade over the squeaky slow AF motors of the older entry level Rebel kit glass, but 7D2 still shooters would want the speed of USM, right?
> 
> Are they legitimately going after pro wildlife/sports guys with this rig or just enthusiasts who want a high burst rate? Surely the days of kitting this with a relatively average lens are over, aren't they? (I recognize that the people drooling over a 7D2 likely already have a lot of glass, but the same could be said at the launch of the 5D3 and _that_ had a decent lens kit option...)
> 
> ...



Kit it with the 17-55. Also kit out a pair of primes like the 35 f/2 and the 135 f/2 L as a cool surprise option. That would also make some nice white box discounts available on those primes from set-breakers.


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## Don Haines (Jun 10, 2014)

ScottyP said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > An STM lens. Really. That's pretty weak for what is presumably a best-in-class APS-C rig in the $2k neighborhood. STM is fine for video, and it's also nice upgrade over the squeaky slow AF motors of the older entry level Rebel kit glass, but 7D2 still shooters would want the speed of USM, right?
> ...



Now that's a great combo!


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## eml58 (Jun 10, 2014)

sanj said:


> I think this is not a relevant post. Why would CR post this? It is not saying anything new.
> 
> But I guess Canon is keeping its secrets very well guarded.



Yeah, sort of like a regurgitated regurgitated rumour, like the "Great White Hope" in Pro Boxing, crew of the Mary Celeste, things are probably slow at CR, so let's start anoooooooother thread on the fabled 7DMK II.

Although I'm unlikely to buy it should it ever make it to Market, I'de realllllly like to see it done & dusted & all those that want one, get one, and start Posting in a "Images from the 7DMK II" thread, instead of endless threads re comments on "what about" "what if" "when ?" "why ???????"

And then be Happy !!


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## unfocused (Jun 10, 2014)

I really believe Canon had originally intended to kit the 7D with the 15-85. Both released at the same time and the 15-85 is pretty much the EF-S equivalent of the 24-105. 

But there was so much wailing and whining when the 7D price was announced (go back and see some of the comments from 40D owners at the time, who were incredibly bitter about the pricing), I think they realized they couldn't package the two together and have a competitively priced kit.

If they don't introduce a new kit lens, I can see the 15-85 being kitted with the 7DII. Could also use the 17-55 since they cut the price of that lens.


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## quiquae (Jun 10, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> rs said:
> 
> 
> > dadgummit said:
> ...



The STM mechanism in the 40mm pancake is a gear type, different from the lead screw type that is used in all the other STM zooms. Gear type is more compact, but slower than the lead screw type. I have both the 40mm and 18-135mm STM, and the 18-135mm STM is quite fast and accurate, nothing like the 40mm.


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## Richard8971 (Jun 10, 2014)

At this late point in the game, I am not going to get excited about any 7D replacement until I can actually buy one. Any replacement has been overdue for a couple of years now and several cameras are just as good as if not better than the current 7D, like the 70D or Nikon D7100. 

Who knows? I wouldn't be surprised if they just dropped the XD line in favor of the 70D and just concentrated on more cinema cameras. I almost wonder if Canon realizes that some of us actually LIKE taking still photos and could care less if our DSLR can do 4K video? 

Besides, I already own a 7D and paid (at the time) almost $1550 for it. I am not just going to take a loss on my 7D (by selling it for, what 600 bucks) just to spend an estimated 2 grand for an "upgrade". I cannot imagine ANY new camera being 2 grand better (in a crop sensor body anyway) than my current 7D.

My camera is fast, responsive and I am more than happy with the image quality, even at higher ISO speeds. 

Guess we will just have to wait and see until August. 

I talked to a friend of mine who has a lot of Canon contacts and I inquired about the lack of information regarding any kind of replacement body at this point. He only said that Canon was getting better at keeping information contained regarding new cameras. Pft... we had a LOT MORE information about the 5D3 before it's announcement. The true lack of any REAL information about a replacement body makes me skeptical. 

May not happen guys... I hope it does, but may not...

D


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## tiger82 (Jun 10, 2014)

It looks like the anticipation has dropped the price of the 1D Mark IV by at least 10%


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## sanj (Jun 10, 2014)

eml58 said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > I think this is not a relevant post. Why would CR post this? It is not saying anything new.
> ...



 But not so slow to to post this. Lately there as been the 16-35 f4 buzz, Lots of Sigma analysis, D800 and high MP debates. Hahahaah


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## Richard8971 (Jun 10, 2014)

tiger82 said:


> It looks like the anticipation has dropped the price of the 1D Mark IV by at least 10%



You know, that's not such a bad thing. I have really been looking at that camera as a replacement to my 7D. 

D


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## that1guyy (Jun 10, 2014)

Here is my guess/wishlist

price: $2000 body only
10fps with about a 40-50 raw frame buffer
5d3 AF system
full weather sealing
wifi 
dual pixel AF system from 70D
new sensor different from 70D (one stop better noise performance and one stop better DR)
possibly 4k video and 1080p/60p? One can hope. 

I really do think this will get a newer sensor than the 70D (which was just a modified version of the old sensor) because the 7D is very important for Canon and the product cycle is very long so a new sensor ensures the camera will remain competitive 3-4 years from now. The 80D or whatever its called will get the 7D's sensor and then the Rebels and others will get them after. 

Anyone agree?


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## TrabimanUK (Jun 10, 2014)

that1guyy said:


> Here is my guess/wishlist
> 
> price: $2000 body only
> 10fps with about a 40-50 raw frame buffer
> ...



Long:

Price - probably not too far off (probably >£1700 in the UK)
fps - probably on the nail
raw buffer - unlikely, probably closer to 30-35 as the 1D only has 38
5DII AF - quite likely, cant's see why not as it is proven technolgy
weather sealing - probably
wifi - definitely, as cheap and commonly occurring now
70D DPAF - probably a similar solution but not same system due to (hopefully) new sensor
New sensor - absolutley needed, as 7D was revolutionary, so the 7D2 should be
ISO and DR - probably
4K - could be, as that wolud be revolutionary for the video people out there


Short:
Yes


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## wickidwombat (Jun 10, 2014)

I wasn't interested in a 7d mk2 until I got the tamron 150-600 now I'm very interested specifically for use with that lens
But it has to have the 5d3 af I can see it now 70-200 on 5dmk3 and 150-600 on 7d2 with 11-22 on eos m at the ready for interesting wide stuff


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## rs (Jun 10, 2014)

TrabimanUK said:


> that1guyy said:
> 
> 
> > Here is my guess/wishlist
> ...


Any AF chip designed for a FF camera won't work with a 1.6x mirror assembly - there simply isn't enough coverage for such a chip. Unless they make a 1.6x sensor body use a 1.0x mirror, with all the additional cost, speed implications and lack of compatibility with EF-S lenses that brings. No reason why a scaled down version can't be made for APS-C though.

Secondly, a whole stop of S/N ratio improvement is highly unlikely, unless we're talking about out of the camera jpegs after being cooked by an even more heavy handed DIGIC dose of NR? As far as I know, modern sensors are closing in on the theoretically optimum QE, so we no longer have the headroom to make such massive gains (the 70D would have to be below 50% QE with the 7D II close to perfect to get a doubling on that metric).

And wifi as yet hasn't been introduced on any all magnesium bodied DSLR's yet. No reason why the antenna can't be located behind one of the plastic flaps (ports, battery, flash, screen etc), but this is new ground, so no reason to assume wifi is a given.

Other than that, yes, the wish list looks nice


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## 2n10 (Jun 10, 2014)

unfocused said:


> I really believe Canon had originally intended to kit the 7D with the 15-85. Both released at the same time and the 15-85 is pretty much the EF-S equivalent of the 24-105.
> 
> But there was so much wailing and whining when the 7D price was announced (go back and see some of the comments from 40D owners at the time, who were incredibly bitter about the pricing), I think they realized they couldn't package the two together and have a competitively priced kit.
> 
> If they don't introduce a new kit lens, I can see the 15-85 being kitted with the 7DII. Could also use the 17-55 since they cut the price of that lens.



Either option would make a great kit. It will be interesting to see how this goes.


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## nebugeater (Jun 10, 2014)

What is the best "guess" on cards. CF .. SD .. or both?


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 10, 2014)

Richard8971 said:


> tiger82 said:
> 
> 
> > It looks like the anticipation has dropped the price of the 1D Mark IV by at least 10%
> ...



Really, this is just a pure guess, so please don't read into it anymore than that. But if I had to bet, I'd still say the 1D4 ends up better than the 7D2. I just think the 7D2 will be an APS-C sensor with a max useable ISO of maybe 1600. Guessing again, but I'm also assuming the AF system in the 1D4 will still be superior, there will be no spot metering for active AF point in the 7D2, no faux M mode (auto ISO in M mode with limits set), and there certainly will not be a flash sync speed of 1/300s. Not to mention shutter durability and camera build.

The 1D4 really for me, is a cropped sensor 1Dx. It performs less at higher ISO's, but I'm telling you, with shots I did not have to raise in post, at ISO 6400, were totally useable. Where I see the 1Dx beating that is that you can shoot at ISO 6400 and still raise quite a bit in post and yes the metering and AF beat it off the field. But a 7D2 will not likely touch any of that.

Again though, I could be wrong. I actually hope I'm wrong just because of how great I think the 1D4 really is.


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## dgatwood (Jun 10, 2014)

nebugeater said:


> What is the best "guess" on cards. CF .. SD .. or both?



My guess would be twin SD. CF is on its way out, CFast is pretty much stillborn, and I doubt we'll see XQD any time soon except maybe in cinema cameras.


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## unfocused (Jun 10, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> nebugeater said:
> 
> 
> > What is the best "guess" on cards. CF .. SD .. or both?
> ...



I'd guess one of each. But that's because I think they'll transfer as many features of the 5DIII over to the 7DII as they can.


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## Boyer U. Klum-Cey (Jun 10, 2014)

I could still live with one of each(CF/SD). A CF failed for the first tyme in a decade, via a 7D. Butt, the 5DIII/7D combo saved the day. Fortunately, as an olde person, I retained good legal beagles, and am starting to get checkz from deadbeat clients for whom I did work in Y1 and Y2k. Gotta see the specs, but my guess is that I am going to be spending money(olde $).


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## johnhenry (Jun 10, 2014)

Sounds like another ploy by Canon (tm,) to make people think they are close to getting a replacement together so you don't jump ship to Nikon by making you believe the replacement is just around the corner (instead of late 2015)


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jun 10, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> nebugeater said:
> 
> 
> > What is the best "guess" on cards. CF .. SD .. or both?
> ...


CFast card is still very recent, and after its emergence were not pro DSLR cameras released, but other film companies already manufacture compatible devices.

Moreover, XQD cards are already on the market for 2 years and so far only Sony and Nikon have compatible devices. Sony has a tradition of making your own media, incompatible with other manufacturers (purposely), and abandoning its users after a few years, and I never buy a XQD card.


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## ahsanford (Jun 10, 2014)

johnhenry said:


> Sounds like another ploy by Canon (tm,) to make people think they are close to getting a replacement together so you don't jump ship to Nikon by making you believe the replacement is just around the corner (instead of late 2015)



No. I'm buying this rumor as it seems to be coinciding with lack of 7D stock at the various resellers. This is a CR2._5_ in my book -- we may not have dates and specifics, but I'd say it will be released by year end with some confidence.

Also, jumping ship out of frustration waiting for a new model is a great windup for some folks but very, very few people actually do it. An average 7D user today likely has at least three lenses (some have many more) and hopping over to Nikon would represent selling all their stuff at 60-70% value and rebuying it with the other brand. Swapping in light of _that_ says such a person is an enthusiast who _must_ have the latest thing even at great cost, and that's a bit of a rarity.

I think to get large numbers of pros or enthusiasts (with a lot of present dollars committed) to switch is very, very difficult. Those folks typically only bail if:


Canon's products or services take a fundamental nose dive. Terrible recalls, poor quality, lengthy service, etc. 
The competition releases _exactly_ what you were looking for and your company will not do this. A poor example might be the D800's release, but that didn't really sink Canon so much as build up demand for a similar offering.
The competition introduces a game changing innovation for what you shoot and you don't have to completely cross over to use it. An example would be the Sony A7 line, possibly adapted for use with Canon glass or for landscape work. You don't have to sell all your gear to give it a real go, so some people have tried it.
I can't speak for a photography business/studio, but I'd imagine larger scale buyers might be given healthy incentives to switch brands to 'land' them as future customers.

In light of that, people don't bounce around that much. So Canon would much rather take baby steps, lovingly dial-in the 7D2, and not release it until it's 100% ready. And as someone who has enjoyed a completely problem-free 5D3, I agree with that approach completely. The wait is usually worth it.

- A


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## Act444 (Jun 10, 2014)

The 7D is a great camera. BUT...its high ISO performance leaves a lot to be desired. As I find myself at dimly lit sporting events with it, I'd appreciate an upgrade here...I was hoping a 7D2 would be here by Sept but that's obviously not going to happen. I've been starting to investigate the 1D4 (sounds like it may only be a marginal improvement though).


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## dgatwood (Jun 10, 2014)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> dgatwood said:
> 
> 
> > nebugeater said:
> ...



Recent by human standards, perhaps, but as standards go, CFast is a dinosaur. The SDHC/SDXC UHS-I standard moved from specification to DSLR adoption in barely two years, and that was a couple of years ago. By contrast, the CFast standard was released more than six years ago (two years before UHS-I) and still hasn't been adopted in much of anything yet. By consumer electronics standards, that's generally considered a failure to launch. 

Also, it seems to be the general consensus of the computer industry that the use of SATA for flash is entirely the wrong design from a performance perspective, and I'd expect the camera industry to follow their lead in the matter. With CFast, you're unnecessarily converting data from a PCIe bus to SATA and back to a raw address bus for no good reason. That's a lot of overhead for no real benefit. Unlike external flash-based disk drives, CFast doesn't try to maintain backwards compatibility with existing ATA-based CF cards or readers, so there's no real advantage to using SATA over PCIe-attached flash (e.g. XQD), and the latter is a lot simpler and is likely to have fewer performance bottlenecks.

From what I've read, XQD adoption is already ahead of CFast despite being announced about three years later, though to be fair, adoption of either standard qualifies as glacial by consumer electronics standards, primarily because there's little need for that much speed yet, at least for stills.

We might eventually see XQD in a still camera, but I'd be surprised if CFast doesn't wither on the vine; there might be a couple of years worth of viability in the high-end video arena before XQD thoroughly stomps it into the ground, but that's probably the extent of its future.




ajfotofilmagem said:


> Moreover, XQD cards are already on the market for 2 years and so far only Sony and Nikon have compatible devices. Sony has a tradition of making your own media, incompatible with other manufacturers (purposely), and abandoning its users after a few years, and I never buy a XQD card.



XQD is an official standard from the CompactFlash Association, so for once Sony isn't being (too) evil.  To the extent that Canon is paying lip service to supporting CFast, they're seriously backing the wrong horse. I'm pretty sure that literally nobody else in the entire electronics industry other than SanDisk, Canon, Phase One, and Arri think that SATA has any future whatsoever in the world of flash storage.


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## dgatwood (Jun 10, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> Also, jumping ship out of frustration waiting for a new model is a great windup for some folks but very, very few people actually do it. An average 7D user today likely has at least three lenses (some have many more) and hopping over to Nikon would represent selling all their stuff at 60-70% value and rebuying it with the other brand. Swapping in light of _that_ says such a person is an enthusiast who _must_ have the latest thing even at great cost, and that's a bit of a rarity.



There's one situation where that's not true, though. Depending on the mix of full-frame and EF-S lenses that you own, some 7D users who decide to upgrade to full-frame might end up selling several of their lenses anyway, not to mention upgrading to lenses with longer focal lengths to make up for the lack of the 1.6x crop factor.


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## ahsanford (Jun 11, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> There's one situation where that's not true, though. Depending on the mix of full-frame and EF-S lenses that you own, some 7D users who decide to upgrade to full-frame might end up selling several of their lenses anyway, not to mention upgrading to lenses with longer focal lengths to make up for the lack of the 1.6x crop factor.


Entirely fair. Current EF-S mount users choosing between a 6D/5D3 or waiting for a 7D2 absolutely are out there. But I don't really see that as a Nikon conversion risk. I see that as a one-time ripping off of the EF-S band-aid that you have to do to migrate to FF regardless of what company's products you use.

I see that less as a "Because I am mad at waiting for Canon" and more of a "Movin' on up (movin' on up) to deeeeluxe apartment in the sky-hiiiiiiigh". :

But yes, you are right. Leaving crop altogether costs money, well above the cost of the body itself. This burden varies depending on what you shoot:


Best case: You just have a standard EF-S zoom, like an 18-55 or 18-135 --> You go and get a 'pried-from-a-kit' 24-105L for $750ish or a 28-135 for $475ish. Ouch, but small change compared to a FF rig. 
_([Sigh] "Yeah, there's that... But it's worth it.")_


Slightly painful case: You have a standard EF-S zoom and an ultrawide --> Same as above, but now you need a 17-40L for $800ish as well. Painful. But doable. 
_([Deep breaths] "I can do this... I'll just get that 17-40L next year.")_


Really painful case: You have have a standard EF-S zoom, an ultrawide _and_ a 55-250 and enjoy shooting around 250 on the crop --> Same as above, but now you need a 100-400L as well. Oof. 
_(The value proposition is starting to take on water rapidly...)_


You-are-totally-screwed case: You are a seasoned vet who shoots a 300 or higher prime on your 7D for wildlife or birding. You have the comically painful choice of settling for the downsides of T/Cs, investing in $10K superteles, or simply *not ever making the jump to FF because the glass will bankrupt you for what you shoot*. That's a buckler.
(_Hint to Canon: You kind of own these people. The 7D2 could be $4k and these people might still the first in line for pre-orders, b/c $4k is still less than Supertele prices. Check and mate.)_ 

Thank goodness I had a succession plan when I bought my third and fourth lenses. I opted for EF glass long before I made the move to FF and my only headache was doing without a 16-24mm FL option after I migrated (sold the EF-S 10-22 but the 24-70 I owned covered the wide end on FF pretty well).

- A


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## Act444 (Jun 11, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> dgatwood said:
> 
> 
> > There's one situation where that's not true, though. Depending on the mix of full-frame and EF-S lenses that you own, some 7D users who decide to upgrade to full-frame might end up selling several of their lenses anyway, not to mention upgrading to lenses with longer focal lengths to make up for the lack of the 1.6x crop factor.
> ...



Or this case: you use a 1.6x with a 70-200 2.8 in low-light venues...there is no real FF equivalent that gives you that kind of reach while remaining fast. At least there isn't one that's really practical...


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## Richard8971 (Jun 11, 2014)

bdunbar79 said:


> But if I had to bet, I'd still say the 1D4 ends up better than the 7D2. I just think the 7D2 will be an APS-C sensor with a max useable ISO of maybe 1600. Guessing again, but I'm also assuming the AF system in the 1D4 will still be superior, there will be no spot metering for active AF point in the 7D2, no faux M mode (auto ISO in M mode with limits set), and there certainly will not be a flash sync speed of 1/300s. Not to mention shutter durability and camera build.
> 
> The 1D4 really for me, is a cropped sensor 1Dx. It performs less at higher ISO's, but I'm telling you, with shots I did not have to raise in post, at ISO 6400, were totally useable. Where I see the 1Dx beating that is that you can shoot at ISO 6400 and still raise quite a bit in post and yes the metering and AF beat it off the field. But a 7D2 will not likely touch any of that.
> 
> Again though, I could be wrong. I actually hope I'm wrong just because of how great I think the 1D4 really is.



These are my thoughts exactly which would explain why the pricing on the 1D4 has remained strong. I have talked to several people and they said that if I ever got my hands on a 1D4 I would never look back again at the 7D, unless it was a backup. 

I really want the 1D4, it's reasonably priced for its capabilities and brute speed and the image quality if fantastic, much better than the 7D. 

Unless the 7D2 is just ONE hell of a camera, I am still looking at getting a 1D4. But my gut feeling is that the 7D will just be quietly discontinued allowing the 70D to take its place just like the 6D quietly replaced the 5D2... think about it...

The 70D is about to the 7D what the 6D is to the 5D2, it would go along with Canon's current way of thinking. The 5D2 is better than the 6D in certain things and visa-versa, same with the 70D. Some things are better than the 7D and some are not. Again the LACK of any REAL information THIS late to an announcement date is very strange. I could be wrong, but we will just have to wait and see.

D


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## dgatwood (Jun 13, 2014)

Richard8971 said:


> Unless the 7D2 is just ONE hell of a camera, I am still looking at getting a 1D4. But my gut feeling is that the 7D will just be quietly discontinued allowing the 70D to take its place just like the 6D quietly replaced the 5D2... think about it...



It seems odd that Canon would drop the 60D from CPS and not include the 70D if they were planning to drop the 7D. My gut says that they won't do this, even though they probably should (because IMO they're spreading themselves a bit thin in terms of the number of actively manufactured camera models).




Richard8971 said:


> The 70D is about to the 7D what the 6D is to the 5D2, it would go along with Canon's current way of thinking. The 5D2 is better than the 6D in certain things and visa-versa, same with the 70D.



Except for the maximum shutter speed (1/4000 vs. 1/8000), I thought the 6D was consistently ahead of the 5Dmk2. Did I miss some others?


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## mackguyver (Jun 13, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> <p>We have been told that a new STM kit lens is likely with the EOS 7D replacement, along with an L zoom.</p>


It'll probably be a 14-40 f/2.8 IS with amazing IQ for $1500, just to tick off all of us 16-35 f/4 IS pre-orderers


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## Tugela (Jun 13, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> dgatwood said:
> 
> 
> > There's one situation where that's not true, though. Depending on the mix of full-frame and EF-S lenses that you own, some 7D users who decide to upgrade to full-frame might end up selling several of their lenses anyway, not to mention upgrading to lenses with longer focal lengths to make up for the lack of the 1.6x crop factor.
> ...



EF-S lenses are mass market low cost products. People who are serious about their hobby probably have mid to high end EF glass anyway even if they use a crop sensor camera, so moving to full frame is not really an impediment. The fact that the 7D2 is apparently coming with an EF-S kit lens suggests to me that the camera itself is going to positioned somewhat lower the 5D camera in its target market, and not close to the 1D as some think. The next generation technology step up from the 70D is more likely. It will probably have a somewhat upgraded sensor, advanced video features, and introduce the next generation of DIGIC processors (so, DIGIC7) as its prime selling points.

The logical market space for the camera to occupy is in competition with Panasonic and Sony's video centric advanced still camera products, since Canon does not currently have much in that market other than the 70D, which trails a distant third place behind the other two companies products. Integrated imaging solutions is where the consumer market is heading at the moment, and right now Canon is way behind the curve on that front. Perhaps the 7D2 will be their first serious attempt to compete effectively in the new paradigm. At least one hopes so, or they will go the way of the Nikon Dodo.

But I guess we will see in a few months what they intend to do.


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## dgatwood (Jun 14, 2014)

Act444 said:


> The 7D is a great camera. BUT...its high ISO performance leaves a lot to be desired. As I find myself at dimly lit sporting events with it, I'd appreciate an upgrade here...I was hoping a 7D2 would be here by Sept but that's obviously not going to happen. I've been starting to investigate the 1D4 (sounds like it may only be a marginal improvement though).



For poor lighting, full-frame cameras are a big win. There's only so much they can do to improve the high-ISO performance on a crop body. Moving away from a Bayer filter (e.g. Panasonic's new diffraction-based design) might get you a factor of 1.5–2. Using a back-illuminated sensor will probably buy you another few percent. Beyond that point, you're getting pretty close to successfully detecting every photon that hits the sensor, and it is almost certainly impossible to exceed 100% efficiency. 

So basically from there, your only hope of getting better SNR without DNR involves doing something insane like moving to a fully buffered sensor, taking multiple shots, and doing motion-compensated HDR so that you can take a longer effective exposure without smearing.


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## wickidwombat (Jun 14, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > <p>We have been told that a new STM kit lens is likely with the EOS 7D replacement, along with an L zoom.</p>
> ...


Oh god that would be a dream come true!


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## dgatwood (Jun 14, 2014)

Tugela said:


> EF-S lenses are mass market low cost products. People who are serious about their hobby probably have mid to high end EF glass anyway even if they use a crop sensor camera, so moving to full frame is not really an impediment.




I'd expect most crop-body shooters to use EF lenses for primes and for longer focal lengths beyond their primary zoom lens, but I'd expect them to rely on at least a couple of EF-S lenses. Specifically:


The EF-S 10–22 (or, in the future, possibly the 10–18) is the only lens that's ultra-wide on a crop body.
I'd expect most folks to also use an EF-S lens for the primary zoom (e.g. an 17–55, 15–85, or maybe a 17–85 if they started shooting Canon crop bodies before those other two lenses appeared on the market), since the 24mm end of the EF zooms isn't particularly wide on a crop body.

When those folks move to full frame, that's more than a grand worth of lenses that they can't use, and will need to replace with EF lenses that cost about twice as much.

With that said, I suppose it depends on the shooter. If you can deal with 24mm as the widest range for your primary zoom (like shooting with a shorty 40 as your widest lens on a full frame), then yeah, EF lenses are fine. Or if you can deal with a 16–35 as your primary zoom lens (equivalent FF range 26–56), you could go that direction. Unfortunately, both approaches are a pretty significant compromise because EF focal lengths aren't a very good fit for crop bodies. If they were, Canon wouldn't build any higher-end EF-S lenses like the 17–55 and the 10–22.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 14, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> I'd expect most crop-body shooters to use EF lenses for primes and for longer focal lengths beyond their primary zoom lens, but I'd expect them to rely on at least a couple of EF-S lenses. Specifically:
> 
> 
> The EF-S 10–22 (or, in the future, possibly the 10–18) is the only lens that's ultra-wide on a crop body.
> ...



That is where high resale value helps. Lost only about $100 on selling the 17-55 (due to fees) and about $30 on the 10-22, but yes in general, FF, is more expensive.


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## dgatwood (Jun 14, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> That is where high resale value helps. Lost only about $100 on selling the 17-55 (due to fees) and about $30 on the 10-22, but yes in general, FF, is more expensive.



The current generation of EF-S lenses has, yes. Of course, if they moved to a 7D from any earlier crop body, there's a good chance they have a 17–85, which is worth about as much as a lens coffee mug.


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## Tugela (Jun 15, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > EF-S lenses are mass market low cost products. People who are serious about their hobby probably have mid to high end EF glass anyway even if they use a crop sensor camera, so moving to full frame is not really an impediment.
> ...



More likely the kit lens will be something like the STM version of the 18-85mm EF-S lens. It would be to facilitate video shooting, and since all the STM lenses so far are for the crop sensor, the camera is probably going to be video centric, much like the 70F, only with significantly enhanced capability. All of the video friendly lenses Canon have made so far are crop lenses, so it is reasonable to presume that they are going to leave full frame focussed on the stills market, with the crop sensors focussed on the stills/video hybrid market in the near term.

The only real question IMO is if it will have sufficient capability in that area to compete effectively with the Sony and Panasonic products.


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## sama (Jun 16, 2014)

Hey, just wonder how much better will the 7D II be compare to the Sony a77ii

features of Sony a77ii :
24MP CMOS Sensor with gapless, offset microlenses
12fps continuous shooting with autofocus (up to 60 JPEGs)
79 point AF module with 15 cross-type AF points, covering 40% of frame
Increased control over AF behavior
1080p60 movies with autofocus
Audio level monitoring during movie shooting
2.4M dot OLED viewfinder
Pull-out three-hinge tilt/swivel 1.23m dot White Magic LCD screen
Built-in Wi-Fi with NFC
1/8000th maximum shutter speed, shutter rated for 150,000 actuations
ISO 100 - 25,600 (Extendable down to 50, and up to 51,200 with multi-image combination)
Auto ISO customization
Optional, profile-based correction of vignetting, chromatic aberrations and geometric distortion
Top panel LCD
Stereo microphone and external mic socket
AF Micro Adjust


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## Steve (Jun 16, 2014)

well that's a pretty impressive list of specs but I don't see integrated grip or pop up flash anywhere.


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## that1guyy (Jun 16, 2014)

Not bad but that is 60 jpegs. What about RAW? I am assuming the 7D will have a much better buffer.
Also, the AF points cover less than half the frame, which is stupid and useless. 

Other specs are impressive but will never buy that.


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## Steve (Jun 16, 2014)

that1guyy said:


> Also, the AF points cover less than half the frame, which is stupid and useless.
> 
> Other specs are impressive but will never buy that.



Uh, whats the AF coverage of the 7D? Or the 1Dx or 5DIII for that matter? Do you think its over half of the total sensor area? I'm legitimately asking here - I can't actually find any info on the % coverage area for any other camera, at least not with a quick googling. The most I can find is a mention that the 1Dx covers 53% of the horizontal distance of the sensor. If you take the area of a canon crop at 22.2mm x 14.8mm = 328.56mm^2, 40% of that is 131.424mm^2. Assuming the same ratio as the sensor (1.5), a little guess and check on the calculator comes up with a spread of about 14mm x 9.4mm or about 63% horizontal and vertical coverage. That seems pretty rockin' to me


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## johnhenry (Jun 19, 2014)

More likely is they want people to buy into their more expensive FF cameras rather than keep using their abandonware cameras.


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## ahsanford (Jun 19, 2014)

johnhenry said:


> More likely is they want people to buy into their more expensive FF cameras rather than keep using their abandonware cameras.



Respectfully disagree:

1) The 7D2 will cost more than the 6D. That's a near certainty given how feature-laden the 7D2 will be and how precipitously the 6D price is dropping. Crop and FF will therefore have some overlap in pricing.

2) Some people desperately need the 1.6x reach a crop brings. It obviates the need to buy epic superteles for $10k+. You get 90% as good IQ for half the cost and half the weight -- that single value proposition says that crop won't be abandonware for a very long time.

- A


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