# looking for my 1st flash



## april (May 17, 2012)

good day!

I hope someone would share me his idea on this one. I'm looking for my my 1st flash, for what type 
of shooting? _HIGH SPEED SYNC_ as I'll be doing portraits in bright daylight. I haven't tried one (_as i'm not a big fan of flash photography_) so I don't have any idea how much power do I need. 

thanks for your help!


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## JerryKnight (May 17, 2012)

Budget? That's really the big question, because everything about the shooting depends on the exact lighting situations. Sometimes a simple 430EX2 will be enough, sometimes you'd need more.

If your budget is unlimited, it's easy - just go get a 600EX-RT.

If you don't want to spend $600+ on one Speedlite, then you can either go with a 430EX2 or 580EX2, or you could look at 3rd party E-TTL-compatible speedlites.

I've become a fan of Yongnuo, and they make the YN-565EX that looks very similar in specs (and appearance) to the 580EX2, except it's only around $150. I believe that Sunpak, Vivitar, etc. also make E-TTL-compatible flashes for cheaper than what Canon Speedlites cost. In the long run, third party flashes probably aren't as well-made or reliable as Canon's, but in the short-term they'll probably do a comparable job, and it's a smaller investment to find out if E-TTL flashes will help your style of photography.


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## wickidwombat (May 18, 2012)

april said:


> good day!
> 
> I hope someone would share me his idea on this one. I'm looking for my my 1st flash, for what type
> of shooting? _HIGH SPEED SYNC_ as I'll be doing portraits in bright daylight. I haven't tried one (_as i'm not a big fan of flash photography_) so I don't have any idea how much power do I need.
> ...



if you are planning on using the cannon hss then you are going to need more than one flash as hss drops the power outpout considerably then you have to factor in more power loss for your defuser you need 2 or 3 set up as a ganglight

I use one of these
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3-Head-Triple-Hot-Shoe-Mount-Adapter-3-in-1-Flash-Light-Bracket-Umbrella-Holder-/221002921751?pt=AU_Flashes&hash=item3374ccf717
on a stand with a 40" shoot through umbrella

Also as i have mentioned previously the phottix odins will allow flashes to fire at full power at anywhere up to 1/8000 sec even studio monolights!


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## april (May 18, 2012)

JerryKnight said:


> Budget? That's really the big question, because everything about the shooting depends on the exact lighting situations. Sometimes a simple 430EX2 will be enough, sometimes you'd need more.
> 
> If your budget is unlimited, it's easy - just go get a 600EX-RT.
> 
> ...



600RT is too expensive for me at this time as I just bought a 5d3 that's why i'm looking into 580 ex2 but these are rare at the moment here in Oz don't know if the stock was depleted or just being kept to boost sales of the 600RT. I saw the yongnou 565 but I don't know if I could fire that at high speeds. Considering the price of 600rt, I could already get a studio flashhead from that amount but still I don't know if I could use those flashheads on high speeds as well that's why I seek your expertise on these matter. 

thanks



wickidwombat said:


> if you are planning on using the cannon hss then you are going to need more than one flash as hss drops the power outpout considerably then you have to factor in more power loss for your defuser you need 2 or 3 set up as a ganglight
> 
> I use one of these
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3-Head-Triple-Hot-Shoe-Mount-Adapter-3-in-1-Flash-Light-Bracket-Umbrella-Holder-/221002921751?pt=AU_Flashes&hash=item3374ccf717
> ...


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## pj1974 (May 18, 2012)

I have a Nissin 866mkII flash, and am very happy with it. Matched to my 7D, it produces great results. 

It's got good power (slightly more than the Canon 580EXII). The user interface took a bit of getting used to, but now that I'm more familiar with it - find it very user friendly.

The LCD screen is better than the Canon LCD screens, imho - especially when working in low light! Plus it has a sub-flash, and construction quality is professional. 

The 7D flash menu can be used for various (including most advanced) functions, OR the 866mkII in-built menu can be used. Note - the Nissin 866 (mkI) works with a 7D, but not all the advanced functions, eg wireless, etc.

I bought the Nissin 866mkII at half the price of the Canon 580EXII! So from that angle, I highly recommend it too. 8)

Paul


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## wickidwombat (May 18, 2012)

here you go

if you can handle dealing with carrying around portable powwer supplies (I made my own with a 1000W pure sign wave inverter and 2 sealed lead acid golf buggy batteries in a lowepro 200AW nova bag)

these are seriously good value and awesome studio flash heads
http://www.proworld.com.au/elinchrom-d-lite-it-4-to-go-set-01-20805?gclid=CNbFiMX1iLACFUZNpgodgT9POg

this will fire those flash heads at any power setting you like at any shutter speed up to 1/8000 sec
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Phottix-Odin-TTL-Flash-Trigger-2-Receiver-fr-Canon-F351-/400236365549?pt=AU_Cameras_Photographic_Accessories&hash=item5d2ff246ed

if your intention is to dominate the midday sun this has way more grunt than trying to do it with speedlights

i have tested this out and mix the flash up with speedlights too, only wierd glitch i have found is when mixing the elinchrom and speedlights the light seem out of sync at 1/250 second all other shutter speeds are fine
I've tested this with 5Dmk2 5Dmk3 and 1Dmk3

the yongnuo does not have canon HSS and the nissin 866i that paul recomended does
for me the nissin is too close in price to the 430exii so i would just go the 430exii instead

i am considerig buying a yongnuo 565 to test with my odins since they are only $150 and have all the same functions as a 580 except HSS its pretty good value if they work


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## briansquibb (May 18, 2012)

If you live that part of the world where Odins are not available then Pocket Wizard mini/flexes can do the same.

I am currently driving 8 flashes off mine at the moment for some serious light

At the other end, for walkabout I put a 430EXII and mini on the hotshoe and get hss at full power


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## pwp (May 18, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> If you live that part of the world where Odins are not available then Pocket Wizard mini/flexes can do the same.
> I am currently driving 8 flashes off mine at the moment for some serious light
> At the other end, for walkabout I put a 430EXII and mini on the hotshoe and get hss at full power


Doesn't the Pocket Wizard Mini TT1 http://www.pocketwizard.com/products/transmitter_receiver/minitt1-canon/ have the huge advantage of massive power savings in HSS mode? This is huge if you want to do a continuous burst and need your HSS output to keep up for at least the first few frames of a 10FPS burst. 

If you only ever need single frame then I guess the Odins might be OK. But why not travel first class? I'm looking at the PW setup and checking compatibility with 5D3. I know 1D4 compatibility is fine.

Wicked Wombat, thanks for the link to the triple hotshoe adapter. Cool!

Paul Wright


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## april (May 19, 2012)

pj1974 said:


> I have a Nissin 866mkII flash, and am very happy with it. Matched to my 7D, it produces great results.
> 
> It's got good power (slightly more than the Canon 580EXII). The user interface took a bit of getting used to, but now that I'm more familiar with it - find it very user friendly.
> 
> ...



thanks for sharing your thought.. I'd be happier if these can be fired at HSS and lastly they're only available online from other countries.


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## april (May 19, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> here you go
> 
> if you can handle dealing with carrying around portable powwer supplies (I made my own with a 1000W pure sign wave inverter and 2 sealed lead acid golf buggy batteries in a lowepro 200AW nova bag)
> 
> ...



thanks wickid!! you're a true gem on this forum by testing a lot of stuff and sharing the results to us.

I'm glad you mention those elinchrom, they look good(price & feature wise) but does HSS work with skyport speed trigger?


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## wickidwombat (May 21, 2012)

unfortunatley you are limited to the xsync speed of the camera witht he skyports (they are fine for the studio though) however the odins are truely awesome with these lights

I quite often mix the elinchroms with speed lights for examplt if i want to use mutliple back ground lights i can just bang the speedlights to manual and they link up perfectly or stick a snoot on em to pick up some hairlights or some detail highlight, and the elinchroms work as the main lights quite often i just use an octobox as a key light and a strip light as a fill light.

I also buy elinchrom to bowens adaptors off ebay and buy bowens light modifiers as they are much cheaper than the genuine elinchrom ones i'll dig out a link for my favourite ebay store for light modifiers. all come from china but they are really great i've had 2 items shipped that got damaged and they replaced them. very helpfull people heres the link 
http://stores.ebay.com.au/selens?_trksid=p4340.l2563

i have bought all my light modifiers from these guys


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## pj1974 (May 21, 2012)

april said:


> thanks for sharing your thought.. I'd be happier if these can be fired at HSS and lastly they're only available online from other countries.



With pleasure, April.

Just note - that the Nissin 866 (both mkI and mkII) CAN be fired at HSS. 

Wickidwombat above said that he would prefer the Canon 430EXii as the price of the Nissin 866mkII is similar (which is fair enough if you want to stay with Canon). Just realise the Nissin 866mkII has similar FEATURES of the higher end Canon though (but at half the price) and it even has some features above the Canon 580 EXII, eg sub-flash. 

I do realise though that for some, online internet shopping is a risk. It didn't stop me on this occasion, and I'm happy. While generally I do prefer to have Canon branded photography equipment, there are times I do buy other manufacturers. For example, I have a great Sigma 10-20mm lens, and a Hahnel wireless remote timer / intervalometer and the Nissin external flash. I'm very happy with each of these... but most of the rest of actual photography gear is Canon.

Best wishes

Paul


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## DB (May 21, 2012)

Presumably you're going to be shooting wide open with fast primes @ 1/1000s or faster because as you say you'll be shooting outdoors (daylight) and primarily portraits, so really shallow DOF, but you said which camera you intend to use but not what glass you already have. The reason I say this is that if you have a zoom lens like a 70-200mm f2.8L II IS USM already, then you can achieve a similar look @f2.8 (from a distance) as you'd get from say a typical portrait lens at f2 or even f1.4 (up close).

If it was my 1st flash I'd be looking to try cheaper alternatives like the 430EXII or the YN-565EX to see what the real-world limitations are, and if those don't work out, then opt or the flagship canon models. Personally I use a couple of Yongnuo YN-565EX's mounted on stands shooting through white umbrellas and my 7D triggers them up to 1/300s and like the 580EXII's the power setting is adjustable from 1/128 up to 1/1 in one-third increments.

Many Pro's shooting e.g. fashion outdoors/indoors now use long lenses. Otherwise, if your lens collection is mainly short-zooms or primes and your budget is tight (having just spent a lot on a 5D3) then you might want to consider continuous lighting options (can be quite inexpensive).

But the real advantage of avoiding HSS and going with 3rd-party flashguns for the time-being is, that you can buy 3 or 4 YN-565's for the price of 1 x 580XII....then you have Key Light, Fill Light, Back-Light & Hair-Light options that multiple speedlights give you.


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## briansquibb (May 21, 2012)

DB said:


> Many Pro's shooting e.g. fashion outdoors/indoors now use long lenses.



I used to think the 135 was the ideal length for ff, but am now shooting with a 200 if that is possible.

I would think 3 lights are sufficient for most standard portraits more than that it is for creativity/effects.


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## wickidwombat (May 21, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> DB said:
> 
> 
> > Many Pro's shooting e.g. fashion outdoors/indoors now use long lenses.
> ...



or really big groups of people might use more than 3 but i think 3 would cover a pretty big group (not using HSS obviously)
bunch of speedlights on stands with shoot throughs evenly spaced covering the whole group ETTL and its nice and easy


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## pdirestajr (May 21, 2012)

What is your purpose of high speed sync? Is it really needed with outdoor portraits?

If it is because you want to use wide apertures for artistic effect, which will kick your shutter speed way up in outdoor light, and that is the only real issue, why not just use an ND filter?

That will allow you to control the DOF and ambient light without the need for hss.


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## briansquibb (May 21, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > DB said:
> ...



I cover a stage with 4 lights with 7ft parabolas from the front row of seats (I get to take the pictures during a dress rehersal


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## briansquibb (May 21, 2012)

pdirestajr said:


> What is your purpose of high speed sync? Is it really needed with outdoor portraits?
> 
> If it is because you want to use wide apertures for artistic effect, which will kick your shutter speed way up in outdoor light, and that is the only real issue, why not just use an ND filter?
> 
> That will allow you to control the DOF and ambient light without the need for hss.



I use hss outdoors to catch the hair blowing in the wind. About 1/2000 seems to be ideal

Flash outdoors is no more than infill on the whole, unless you are shooting contre jour


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## wickidwombat (May 21, 2012)

here is a couple of inspiring vids

Desert Shoot w/Joe McNally

The Desert, Part II


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## bycostello (May 21, 2012)

i'd get quantums if i was to start flash shopping again...


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## briansquibb (May 21, 2012)

I am looking to get a gang like Joe McNally has in the video - also described in Syl Arena's books.

Obviously I would be using Canon gear. I would like to have two poles of 8 for starters (have tried a pole of 6 which worked well)

I am buying used speedlites where possible - 580EX are quite cheap here - although I notice that 550EX are almost being given away now so I might get a basket full of those


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## K3nt (May 21, 2012)

I use both a 430EX2 and a Nissin Di866 mkII. Haven't had a problem with either one. I might get some more of the Nissin ones as they offer a little bit more power but at a more reasonable price point.
If I had unlimited money I'd get 12 of the new 600RT's. ;D


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## wickidwombat (May 21, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I am looking to get a gang like Joe McNally has in the video - also described in Syl Arena's books.
> 
> Obviously I would be using Canon gear. I would like to have two poles of 8 for starters (have tried a pole of 6 which worked well)
> 
> I am buying used speedlites where possible - 580EX are quite cheap here - although I notice that 550EX are almost being given away now so I might get a basket full of those



while it is very cool i dont think you need it anymore given the odins power 2 x 400W monolights at full power driven by odins up to 1/8000 sec or whatever speed you want are going to provide tons of power those setups are a few years old before these new tech triggers came out so the built in HSS funtion was the only way to do it

many ways to skin that cat
and how much would all those speedlights cost! i have 6 580 exii now which i think is enough ? :-[ :-\


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## briansquibb (May 21, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > I am looking to get a gang like Joe McNally has in the video - also described in Syl Arena's books.
> ...



Ganglighting gives a very different light than single source - that is why I want it, for the IQ. My PW drive each speedlight at max [email protected]/8000. With 6 lights I can fire at low speed (5fps) for a burst as each light uses so little power on each flash.

Once I get myself organised I will do sample pics.


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## april (May 21, 2012)

DB said:


> Presumably you're going to be shooting wide open with fast primes @ 1/1000s or faster because as you say you'll be shooting outdoors (daylight) and primarily portraits, so really shallow DOF, but you said which camera you intend to use but not what glass you already have. The reason I say this is that if you have a zoom lens like a 70-200mm f2.8L II IS USM already, then you can achieve a similar look @f2.8 (from a distance) as you'd get from say a typical portrait lens at f2 or even f1.4 (up close).
> 
> If it was my 1st flash I'd be looking to try cheaper alternatives like the 430EXII or the YN-565EX to see what the real-world limitations are, and if those don't work out, then opt or the flagship canon models. Personally I use a couple of Yongnuo YN-565EX's mounted on stands shooting through white umbrellas and my 7D triggers them up to 1/300s and like the 580EXII's the power setting is adjustable from 1/128 up to 1/1 in one-third increments.
> 
> ...



that's a very good point THANK YOU! I have 70-200mm IS II, 24-105, 60mm macro & 50mm1.8








pdirestajr said:


> What is your purpose of high speed sync? Is it really needed with outdoor portraits?
> 
> If it is because you want to use wide apertures for artistic effect, which will kick your shutter speed way up in outdoor light, and that is the only real issue, why not just use an ND filter?
> 
> That will allow you to control the DOF and ambient light without the need for hss.



thanks dude ! you've just reminded me of my other gears and yes you're right I always shoot with wide aperture on portraits. I'll be trying a combination of both ND filter + flash & I'll see where it will lead me hopefully I could borrow some flashes from my mates to test it with.


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## wickidwombat (May 22, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



true its a much harder light though, lots of contrast
also these
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Flash-Battery-Pack-SF-18-Yongnuo-Flash-Speedlite-YN-560-YN-565-EX-/180751364543?pt=UK_Camera_Chargers_Docks&hash=item2a159ef1bf
can really help boost the cycle time of your flashes and they will shoot all day without changing batteries


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## briansquibb (May 22, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> Ganglighting gives a very different light than single source - that is why I want it, for the IQ. My PW drive each speedlight at max [email protected]/8000. With 6 lights I can fire at low speed (5fps) for a burst as each light uses so little power on each flash.
> 
> Once I get myself organised I will do sample pics.



true its a much harder light though, lots of contrast
also these
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Flash-Battery-Pack-SF-18-Yongnuo-Flash-Speedlite-YN-560-YN-565-EX-/180751364543?pt=UK_Camera_Chargers_Docks&hash=item2a159ef1bf
can really help boost the cycle time of your flashes and they will shoot all day without changing batteries
[/quote]

No reason why a diffuser cant be used. McNally was using triple heads with a shoot though - no reason why they couldn't all use shoot throughs or diffusers


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## wickidwombat (May 22, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > Ganglighting gives a very different light than single source - that is why I want it, for the IQ. My PW drive each speedlight at max [email protected]/8000. With 6 lights I can fire at low speed (5fps) for a burst as each light uses so little power on each flash.
> ...



No reason why a diffuser cant be used. McNally was using triple heads with a shoot though - no reason why they couldn't all use shoot throughs or diffusers
[/quote]

true you can just strap a 2m x 1m diffuser panel to the front of each tree 

actually i can see you in something like this...
Human Light Suit: Burning Man 2010


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## briansquibb (May 22, 2012)

Here is my first venture - a couple of years ago which was my trigger to move to PW


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## wickidwombat (May 22, 2012)

hehe i remember that pic did you get any shadow cast from your head?


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## april (Jun 3, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> here you go
> 
> if you can handle dealing with carrying around portable powwer supplies (I made my own with a 1000W pure sign wave inverter and 2 sealed lead acid golf buggy batteries in a lowepro 200AW nova bag)
> 
> ...





At the moment, I end up getting yongnou 565ex+ sf18 battery pack & pixel king wireless trigger set.

the yn-565 is very close to canon 580 exII aside from the fact that the swivel head doesn't have locks, recycle time is a bit longer and the hot shoe attachment is not a quick release as well somewhat minor differences and performance is pretty close to match the 580 except for the HSS.

I went with the pixel king since its functions are similar to phottix odin except that it has no LCD performance wise I'm happy with it the only sad part was the battery cover is so flimsy not a big deal unless it will get lost while shooting ;D

I haven't fully tested them on actual shooting but I hope they will perform as I expected.


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## Strobe the globe (Jun 3, 2012)

I'd have to recommend the Canon 600EX-RT, as Radio Triggering will allow you to be compatible via RT with Canon future flash releases (I'm sure it will be the way of the future for strobists). It will allow you to maximise your flash photography, and give you more options in low light conditions. Good luck!

Canon Speedlite 600EX-RT Review - Hands On Review - Features of the Flash Body


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## pwp (Jun 5, 2012)

april said:


> I hope someone would share me his idea on this one. I'm looking for my my 1st flash, for what type
> of shooting? _HIGH SPEED SYNC_ as I'll be doing portraits in bright daylight. I haven't tried one (_as i'm not a big fan of flash photography_) so I don't have any idea how much power do I need.



Back to the OP. What body are you planning to shoot with? If it's going to be older than a 5D3 or a 1DX then skip the 600EX-RT. On older bodies you'll only get 100th sync and questionable HSS. I'd recommend a pre-owned 580ex or 580exII. These are great for HSS, have the advantage of being amazingly flexible in the ways you can rotate them for bounce flash (more movements than Yonguo or 430ex) and also the distinct advantage of have a plug for an external power source which you will appreciate if HSS becomes your thing. HSS sucks power much much more than regular flash. You can read plenty on this subject here or on Google.

PW


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## april (Jun 5, 2012)

pwp said:


> april said:
> 
> 
> > I hope someone would share me his idea on this one. I'm looking for my my 1st flash, for what type
> ...



I got a 5d3, 50D & hopefully a 1dx (depending on price & performance compared to 5d3).... yeah I looked for a used 580s & 430s but they are rare in here and I found a couple but priced so much as if they don't wanna sell it. That is why I bought a YN 565exII and a pixel king trigger. this set up is limited to 1/200 shutter speed due to the flash although the trigger is capable of firing at 1/8000 good thing is I have my ND filters to get away with HSS (thanks to *pdirestajr*). I took the pixel king flash trigger due to its capability of HSS and costs less than the odins.


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## wickidwombat (Jun 5, 2012)

cool, i didnt know that about the pixel kings how many did you end up going for?

those sf18 battery packs are great they will go all day without needing a battery change


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## april (Jun 5, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> cool, i didnt know that about the pixel kings how many did you end up going for?
> 
> those sf18 battery packs are great they will go all day without needing a battery change



as of now I just bought 1 flash & a pair of trigger just to see how it goes then if I'd be ok with maybe I'd grab some more. 

I tried to do HSS with the yongnou sadly I failed. it will fire but the photo will have a portion covered by the shutter  the only worry i have with the flash is the lack of lock on the swivel head I hope it will not become too loose upon usage nonetheless I'm happy with it. my wallet is happy as well ;D


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## wickidwombat (Jun 11, 2012)

Just an interesting little adaptation i tried out on the weekend was i wanted to see if a 3.5mm stereo splitter cable could be used to drive 2 flashes off 1 odin reciever via the PC sync port

and it works Obviously manual only however its a neat little trick if you are looking to drive multiple lights with 1 reciever, as long as your reciever has the 3.5mm output so you can use a 3.5mm to pc sync connector to the flashes, 

I can see me using this for say driving 2 background flashes with one reciever for blowing out the background to white these need to be manual anyway so you can force enough power through ettl can be a bit flaky in this use. while the other flashes have their own recievers and operating in ettl


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