# Canon EF 70-200mm f/4L IS II USM & Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L USM II Discontinued



## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 31, 2021)

> It looks like Canon is discontinuing EF lenses at quite a fast pace. This time I have been told that both the Canon EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM II and Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L USM II have been discontinued.
> Keep in mind, even if a lens is discontinued from production, you’re still going to be able to find inventory in certain stores for a while.
> I have added a page with a list of recently discontinued Canon EF lenses to the left menu. I’ll keep track of every lens that Canon discontinues over the next little while.



Continue reading...


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## Chaitanya (Mar 31, 2021)

This lens is not even listed on Adorama anymore. Both 40mm and this lens are a surprise compared to 70-200 f/4L and 85mm f/1.2L both of which have RF equivalents.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 31, 2021)

Thanks, I have added it to the list.


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## toodamnice (Mar 31, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Thanks, I have added it to the list.


I guess this pretty much confirms there will not be a 5D mk V or any other DSLR. Would you agree?


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## sobrien (Mar 31, 2021)

Seriously?! The 2018-released and generally wonderful Canon EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM II?!

Wow. If true that is a remarkable statement of intent that EF is fully done and dusted. I mean the writing has very clearly been on the wall but discontinuing such a new and well received lens is shifting things up a few gears. The powers that be must feel very good about how the R series has gone and confident about its future.

As someone who has sold all my EF mount cameras and gone mostly RF, I’m not best placed to complain, but I’m still a little shocked.


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## bseitz234 (Mar 31, 2021)

sobrien said:


> Seriously?! The 2018-released and generally wonderful Canon EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM II?!
> 
> Wow. If true that is a remarkable statement of intent that EF is fully done and dusted. I mean the writing has very clearly been on the wall but discontinuing such a new and well received lens is shifting things up a few gears. The powers that be must feel very good about how the R series has gone and confident about its future.
> 
> As someone who has sold all my EF mount cameras and gone mostly RF, I’m not best placed to complain, but I’m still a little shocked.


This was the one that hit me in the pit of the stomach... as someone not having made the plunge and still very happy with a 5d3 and 7d2, this made me sad.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 31, 2021)

Understandable and it'll be good to see simplified options in shops without having half a dozen 70-200 f/4 lenses on sale at once. However, the usual suspects said Nikon was ******* when it was suggested they were discontinuing some lines. Hopefully people start seeing that Canon and Nikon are readying up for the next few decades and selling older lenses isn't particularly good for their future.


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## Maximilian (Mar 31, 2021)

I am a little bit surprised that the 70-200 is on that list.
I thought that those workhorse zooms would stay until the end.
But it seems that Canon decided to do the big jump out of the old system.

I am not at that point - esp. the price point -, so I will stay with EF for a few years longer.
Will be interesting what cameras and lenses will last till the end.


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## Exploreshootshare (Mar 31, 2021)

Whew, what a surprise and the pace in which Canon discontinues lenses seems to quicken on a daily basis. I still imagine that last year productions challenges made Canon decide to stick with the future RF lenses and say goodbye to the still-great-and-present EF lenses. Without COVID I think Canon would've held on a few more years in production of EF lenses, especially the ones being released in 2018...


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 31, 2021)

toodamnice said:


> I guess this pretty much confirms there will not be a 5D mk V or any other DSLR. Would you agree?



An EOS 5D Mark V, unfortunately, doesn't make sense from a business standpoint. They want you over to the RF mount, if they produced a 5D5, that would take people away from the EOS R system for years.


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## Bert63 (Mar 31, 2021)

So no 5D5 then? Anyone?

(if anyone still seriously doubted that Canon was done with higher end DSLRs then I think is the proverbial writing on the wall... Stick a fork in it.)


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## Maximilian (Mar 31, 2021)

Bert63 said:


> So no 5D5 then? Anyone?
> 
> (if anyone still seriously doubted that Canon was done with higher end DSLRs then I think is the proverbial writing on the wall... Stick a fork in it.)


I have swallowed a year ago that the 5D line is at its end - that's why I got me a 5D4 lately for a very good price.
I have always thought that there would be a 1D X Mark IV (or else) as a last pro cam. Like they did with the Canon EOS-1V in film times.
Now I am not sure about this anymore.

What gets me totally puzzeled is what they are planning for the Rebel/Kiss/xxxD/xxxxD/EF-S audience. 
Esp. with the rumors that EOS M system is about to end, too.
Is that consumer market dead and lost to smartphones?
Will it continue? Will there be something else?


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## privatebydesign (Mar 31, 2021)

Welcome to the trials and tribulations we had in the 1990's Fd to EOS era, at least we now have EOS-RF compatibility and adapters unlike back then when the FD was a true dead end.


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## mavvy (Mar 31, 2021)

In my opinion those lenses already perform at a very high level so that it wouldn't make any sense (economically) to put more effort into developing a successor with just tiny improvements.

I still own the lightgray version I of the 70-200/4 IS L USM which I still love but I have partially converted to RF already, starting with replacing my 6D2 with the R6 and selling some EF lenses.

Now there is hope that availability will improve if Canon can improve their production rates of RF gear, and also hope that prices could drop a little because I can't / won't afford to switch from EF to RF all at once right now.


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## AJ (Mar 31, 2021)

I predict 85/1.8 will be next to go. It has an RF equivalent, albeit 1/3 stop slower.
Maybe 50/1.8 as well?


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## Maximilian (Mar 31, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Welcome to the trials and tribulations we had in the 1990's Fd to EOS era...


I've been there, too 
Not with my own but with my fathers equipment 

It was clear to happen, the question was how and how fast.


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## sanj (Mar 31, 2021)

It just seems yesterday that both these lenses were the object of desire of many photographers.


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## sanj (Mar 31, 2021)

One of the very best decisions I made last year is not buying 1dx3.


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## Exploreshootshare (Mar 31, 2021)

Maximilian said:


> what they are planning for the Rebel/Kiss/xxxD/xxxxD/EF-S audience.
> Esp. with the rumors that EOS M system is about to end, too.


I think those lines will be lost more or less. Smartphones have taken over the large numbers. I figure there'll only be like one, two camera models (three at most) underneath the FF sector in order to attract customers. This and a revamped Powershot section and cameras like the 100-400mm Powershot are the successors of those lines. In addition to that, I'm sure we'll see a 500 $ FF camera in a about four years... 

The camera industry will only grow back into large numbers if the smartphones magically disappear. This could only happen if the some magic device like the "communicator" from Star Trek or if Samsung and Apple actually go through with their patents of replacing the touchscreen by the paw of ones hand and a laser project the screen on when needed... but that sounds an awful lot like sci-fi


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## Bert63 (Mar 31, 2021)

Maximilian said:


> I have swallowed a year ago that the 5D line is at its end - that why I got me a 5D4 lately for a very good price.
> I have always thought that there would be a 1D X Mark IV (or else) as a last pro cam. Like they did with the Canon EOS-1V in film times.
> Now I am not sure about this anymore.
> 
> ...



I'm thinking that it rolls on as is until the supply chain issues resolve enough to get an R7 or whatever it ends up being out to the market. After that my guess is that the R7 will be the cropper flagship, and there will be a couple of "lesser" mirrorless models below it, and that will be it. I see the rest going away.

With the push to mirrorless and Canon announcing the discontinuation of extremely popular EF lenses, I don't see them continuing to develop and market lenses for a system that they are obviously working to make obsolete.

People all want mirrorless. I don't think most of them know why they want mirrorless aside from that's what's being pushed by the manufacturers and that"mirrorless" is the buzzword nowadays. I think the trend is going to continue and escalate and it will become harder and harder to get people to even look at anything else. The trend is here and it isn't going away. 

Personally, I started with the EOS-R and recently got my R5, but I was sold on the benefits of mirrorless shortly after I took the EOS-R out of the box.

I still have my DSLRs but I don't use them as much as I used to.

I see the segment leaders as Sony and Canon. Sony couldn't care less about DSLR and Canon is either going to have to support two product lines (stupid) or go the way of Sony and put all their eggs in the mirrorless basket.


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## Exploreshootshare (Mar 31, 2021)

I have a serious question: 
What will happen with the prices for used EF gear with the ongoing discontinuation of EF lenses. Will they suddenly crash or will they go up since there is still a market and very few lenses left to buy. I own the wonderful EF 100-400mm which I eventually will sell as soon (or far in the future) the RF 100-500mm is available at a reasonable price...


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## privatebydesign (Mar 31, 2021)

sanj said:


> One of the very best decisions I made last year is not buying 1dx3.


I'm still looking to get one when the prices ease and my business improves a touch. Meanwhile I have have the money set aside for an R5 and they are in stock everywhere and I just can't do it. Yes the R5 is a great camera but I still don't get on with EVF's despite trying hard to...

Meanwhile if anybody wants a low shutter count 1DX II with WFT-E8, RRS L-plate, and a ton of CFast cards drop me a line


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## privatebydesign (Mar 31, 2021)

Exploreshootshare said:


> I have a serious question:
> What will happen with the prices for used EF gear with the ongoing discontinuation of EF lenses. Will they suddenly crash or will they go up since there is still a market and very few lenses left to buy. I own the wonderful EF 100-400mm which I eventually will sell as soon (or far in the future) the RF 100-500mm is available at a reasonable price...


If they follow precedent then some of the more exotic and very good condition lenses will go up in value, some by quite a bit. Then the values will fall and us EF users are in for bargains galore!


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## LensFungus (Mar 31, 2021)

Oh Canon EF 85mm F/1.2L II
Now cracks a noble heart. 
Good night, sweet prince
And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest!


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## Del Paso (Mar 31, 2021)

I (egoistically!) just couldn't care less. I just hope they will not discontinue servicing the "old" lenses too soon.
I already own 14 EF lenses, mostly Ls, so I'm not in need of additional ones.
I'll keep using my preferred camera (5DIV) till it dies, along with the EOS R, then get either a used 5 DIV or an R5.
Adaptability is no issue, AF speed being for me of secondary importance.
Discontinuing the EF line is the only commercially viable option for Canon, keeping 2 "main" standards would have been ruinous.
And: the RF lenses are excellent, even though they cost a "tiny" little bit more.


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## dwarven (Mar 31, 2021)

toodamnice said:


> I guess this pretty much confirms there will not be a 5D mk V or any other DSLR. Would you agree?



Yeah, it definitely does. A lot of people have been predicting this for a long time now.


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## Del Paso (Mar 31, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> If they follow precedent then some of the more exotic and very good condition lenses will go up in value, some by quite a bit. Then the values will fall and us EF users are in for bargains galore!


I'd sell my 70-200 f4 II for ridiculous $5000, and add, as a bonus, a magnetic happiness providing bracelet!


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 31, 2021)

Exploreshootshare said:


> I have a serious question:
> What will happen with the prices for used EF gear with the ongoing discontinuation of EF lenses. Will they suddenly crash or will they go up since there is still a market and very few lenses left to buy. I own the wonderful EF 100-400mm which I eventually will sell as soon (or far in the future) the RF 100-500mm is available at a reasonable price...



I don't expect any big crash for quite some time. There will still be a lot of demand.


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## Exploreshootshare (Mar 31, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> If they follow precedent then some of the more exotic and very good condition lenses will go up in value, some by quite a bit. Then the values will fall and us EF users are in for bargains galore!


Thx for your opinion. My lense is in very good condition, but I wouldn't consider the 100-400mm an exotic lense, would you?


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## privatebydesign (Mar 31, 2021)

Exploreshootshare said:


> Thx for your opinion. My lense is in very condition, but I wouldn't consider the 100-400mm an exotic lense, would you?


No. And the trouble is people moving to RF have the 100-500 option so it doesn’t hold any unique value like a 200-400 or the 200 f2.


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## Exploreshootshare (Mar 31, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> No. And the trouble is people moving to RF have the 100-500 option so it doesn’t hold any unique value like a 200-400 or the 200 f2.


Yeah, I figured as well. At the moment, the 100-400mm sells on Ebay (in Germany) for about 1.450-1.600 € for lenses in good/ great condition. Some try to shoot for 1.700 €, but those ads have stuck around for at least three months... 
As long as the RF 100-500mm is hardly available, I should be able to sell for a reasonable price, but I'll probably still have to wait till 2022 for the RF price to come down... 

Or I'll just keep this lense forever...


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## navastronia (Mar 31, 2021)

Quite glad that I sold 2 EF lenses over the weekend, before anyone starts running discounts.


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## Jasonmc89 (Mar 31, 2021)

That 70-200 didn’t have a long run at all!


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## snapshot (Mar 31, 2021)

I havent used my 85 f1.2 since i GAS'ed an EF 84 f1.4 IS -- autofocus is sooo much faster.


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## Antono Refa (Mar 31, 2021)

Exploreshootshare said:


> I have a serious question:
> What will happen with the prices for used EF gear with the ongoing discontinuation of EF lenses. Will they suddenly crash or will they go up since there is still a market and very few lenses left to buy. I own the wonderful EF 100-400mm which I eventually will sell as soon (or far in the future) the RF 100-500mm is available at a reasonable price...


EF lenses are usable as are on RF bodies with an adapter, and RF lenses are expensive, so I expect EF lenses to keep their value for a while.

Personally, I've decided to use my 5DmkIV till it dies, then buy whatever makes the most sense.


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## snapshot (Mar 31, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> I don't expect any big crash for quite some time. There will still be a lot of demand.


especially for the 100-400 L IS II. I recently acquired one for use on the r5. focus is fast, images are sharp, H+ mode works.


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## pzyber (Mar 31, 2021)

And I planned getting the 85 1.2 II in a month or so. I better hurry up. This is one of the lenses with some nice characteristics.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 31, 2021)

pzyber said:


> And I planned getting the 85 1.2 II in a month or so. I better hurry up. This is one of the lenses with some nice characteristics.


There is a perfect condition used one on Craigslist locally for under $1,000, a first that I have seen.


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## Tom W (Mar 31, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


I still have the original version of the old 85/1.2 "fat boy".


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## privatebydesign (Mar 31, 2021)

bseitz234 said:


> This was the one that hit me in the pit of the stomach... as someone not having made the plunge and still very happy with a 5d3 and 7d2, this made me sad.


Why? You have what you have and if you decide to stick with EF will have options for the rest of your life.


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## Sporgon (Mar 31, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Meanwhile I have have the money set aside for an R5 and they are in stock everywhere and I just can't do it. Yes the R5 is a great camera but I still don't get on with EVF's despite trying hard to...


I really sympathise with this point of view; I fully appreciate all the advantages of AF that the new Canon mirrorless cameras bring, and when I start using an EVF I think "Hey this isn't so bad, in fact I quite like it really........" but then when I go back to the OVF my immediate reaction is "this is so much better". Maybe the answer is to have one of each 

The rapid discontinuation of EF lenses, some quite ubiquitous, sends a strong message that Canon aren't going to ever make a 5DV unless their rivals and customer base drive them to do it. In the meantime the 5DIV is pretty competent, and how would you improve it _significantly_ at this time assuming that not everyone wants more than 30mp ?


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## cayenne (Mar 31, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Welcome to the trials and tribulations we had in the 1990's Fd to EOS era, at least we now have EOS-RF compatibility and adapters unlike back then when the FD was a true dead end.


I was actually thinking of this reply before I saw your post, but it really coincides with my thoughts....

The funny thing is, that with mirrorless cameras (I have a couple now, the Canon R is coming for me at some point too)...one of the really FUN things I've found about them is, the adaptability for older, vintage manual lenses.

If it has manual focus and aperture, you are pretty much assured of being able to use it on ANY modern mirrorless camera as that there is surely an adapter for it.

Even the old Canon FD lenses....you can now use them on most any camera, even the RF mount, whereas it wouldn't really work with EF.

Hell, I've been keeping an eye out for a Canon 85mm F/1.2 FD lens for a few of my cameras, that thing was a VERY good lens and still is by most standards from what I read about it.

But that makes me wonder what will happen to the EF line? Most of them don't have manual aperture, and some of them have focus by wire, not mechanical.

What happens to the market for these a decade or more from now, when the newer cameras stop bothering to put in protocols to electronically change the aperture and focus?

Mirrorless cameras are making lenses 50+ years old viable options again....somehow, I don't see the fine EF line faring so well over the coming decades.

I dunno..will someone bother to take the glass out of them to do something, or rig and rebuilt the lenses so you can focus and change aperture manually?

At least, that's my thoughts.

If that's the case, it might be prudent that while you can feel safe saving and using them with your RF cameras for the next 5-10 years...around that time, you might need to seriously consider unloading them and getting what money you can with them, unless you plan to keep your EF cameras going till the just wear out.
And when that happens...well, those EF lenses might look good on a shelf or camera museum, but they may not actually work on anything, which is a shame...they are good glass.

Just my $0.02,

cayenne


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## Ozarker (Mar 31, 2021)

Bound to have begun sooner rather than later. I’m sure the pandemic and resulting supply chain issues played a part. My sights are firmly set on RF glass in the future anyway.

Now I won’t get flamed anymore for saying there will be no 5D Mark V in the future.


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## Del Paso (Mar 31, 2021)

Hi Cayenne!
I wouldn't worry too much, since, thanks to companies like Novoflex, EF lenses can be adapted to other non-Canon cameras, Sony, Leica SL, Panasonic etc...


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## Ozarker (Mar 31, 2021)

cayenne said:


> I was actually thinking of this reply before I saw your post, but it really coincides with my thoughts....
> 
> The funny thing is, that with mirrorless cameras (I have a couple now, the Canon R is coming for me at some point too)...one of the really FUN things I've found about them is, the adaptability for older, vintage manual lenses.
> 
> ...


I’m with you. Using my old Takumars, Mamiya/Sekors, etc. was made fun thanks to focus peaking on the R. My eyesight is too bad to do so on a DSLR. I loved the 5D Mark III, but hated manually focusing old lenses with it.


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## Del Paso (Mar 31, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I’m with you. Using my old Takumars, Mamiya/Sekors, etc. was made fun thanks to focus peaking on the R. My eyesight is too bad to do so on a DSLR. I loved the 5D Mark III, but hated manually focusing old lenses with it.


Also using vintage lenses (Leica M & R).
This was my reason - manual focusing was awful with 5 DIII - for buying the EOS R. Yet, unlike you, I don't use focus peaking: far too imprecise for my taste - I use the wonderful-magnificent EVF loupe.
But I still prefer using DSLRs...having oversize hands and disliking battery-grips.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 31, 2021)

cayenne said:


> Even the old Canon FD lenses....you can now use them on most any camera, even the RF mount, whereas it wouldn't really work with EF.
> 
> Hell, I've been keeping an eye out for a Canon 85mm F/1.2 FD lens for a few of my cameras, that thing was a VERY good lens and still is by most standards from what I read about it.


I always preferred the FD 135 f2 over the 85mm f1.2, so much so that I kept it!


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## GMAX (Mar 31, 2021)

Exploreshootshare said:


> I have a serious question:
> What will happen with the prices for used EF gear with the ongoing discontinuation of EF lenses. Will they suddenly crash or will they go up since there is still a market and very few lenses left to buy. I own the wonderful EF 100-400mm which I eventually will sell as soon (or far in the future) the RF 100-500mm is available at a reasonable price...


Had the same thoughts to sell my 100-400 ii for the 100-500 too, but declined because of flexibility. This EF-lens works perfect with my 1DXiii, 5DIV, 5DS, as well as with my R, R6 and for some more reach even with the M6mii. Combination with 1.4x iii and 2.0x iii is great without a lot of limitations (besides 2.x and AF with the DSLRs). The RF100-500 seems to be a great lens, but no need for me to buy with my current setup. Answering your question: Don't think that the price for the 100-400 will suddenly crash in the near future.


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## David - Sydney (Mar 31, 2021)

Exploreshootshare said:


> I have a serious question:
> What will happen with the prices for used EF gear with the ongoing discontinuation of EF lenses. Will they suddenly crash or will they go up since there is still a market and very few lenses left to buy. I own the wonderful EF 100-400mm which I eventually will sell as soon (or far in the future) the RF 100-500mm is available at a reasonable price...


RF replacement lenses are significantly more expensive than EF versions eg RF100-500mm vs EF100-400mm. Good second hand EF copies going for roughly half their new price in Australia so there will still a reasonable demand for EF lenses from a cost perspective. Finding a second hand EF100-400mm is hard and they are keeping their value so people are still buying that lens new.
I am surprised by the EF70-200mm f4 II being discontinued though. It could be that there is a bottleneck of the RF70-200mm manufacturing process meaning that they expect it to be a high volume seller meaning they can't see a batch of EF70-200mm happening for a long time. Even if this was the case, formal discontinuation would seem premature.


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## EOS 4 Life (Mar 31, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> An EOS 5D Mark V, unfortunately, doesn't make sense from a business standpoint. They want you over to the RF mount, if they produced a 5D5, that would take people away from the EOS R system for years.


I have never understood this line of reasoning.
Canon just wants to sell cameras and lenses.
They have no reason to cry every time someone buys a DSLR of EF lens.
The only rationale for not making a 5D Mark V is if Canon thinks it is a poor investment for them.


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## EOS 4 Life (Mar 31, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Meanwhile I have have the money set aside for an R5 and they are in stock everywhere and I just can't do it. Yes the R5 is a great camera but I still don't get on with EVF's despite trying hard to...


R5 is my first Canon DSLM and I have learned to love the adaptable mount.
I would not sell it but I would buy a 5D V even if it were identical and every way to the R5 other than the OVF.


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## Bdbtoys (Mar 31, 2021)

This was funny.

Saw title...
said to self, @Canon Rumors Guy should really make a running list to the left...
looked to left, saw list...
read post, and smh.

Pretty much sums up my day today.


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## gcrimmins (Apr 1, 2021)

I suspect that Canon has not manufactured any EF lenses for a while now, and they are being discontinued as they run out of existing stock.


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## miketcool (Apr 1, 2021)

Worth remembering is that for a year now, some resources have been hard to come by for lenses and cameras. The pandemic has caused logistical problems in manufacturing. I’m sure this is a factor in accelerating the discontinuation of lenses. Perhaps some of these early ones share parts from a supplier with limited capability.


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## Mr Majestyk (Apr 1, 2021)

sobrien said:


> Seriously?! The 2018-released and generally wonderful Canon EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM II?!
> 
> Wow. If true that is a remarkable statement of intent that EF is fully done and dusted. I mean the writing has very clearly been on the wall but discontinuing such a new and well received lens is shifting things up a few gears. The powers that be must feel very good about how the R series has gone and confident about its future.
> 
> As someone who has sold all my EF mount cameras and gone mostly RF, I’m not best placed to complain, but I’m still a little shocked.


I would buy the EF version any day over the RF version and that's both f/4 and f/2.8 lenses. If I buy the R5 I'll be keeping all my EF glass as there's basically no RF glass I care for at this stage. Maybe if and when they release new lightweight 300 f/2.8 and 500 f/4 I migth swap my EF versions, or release that 100 f/2 macro I'l sell the old 100L.


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## unfocused (Apr 1, 2021)

Canon discontinuing a popular and recently released lens? Sorry, but I'd like to know the source.

Two famous sayings come to mind:

"Trust but verify" – Ronald Reagan (Actually a Russian Proverb that Reagan adopted and made famous.)

"If your mother says she loves you, check it out" – sign on the wall of the City News Bureau in Chicago.


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## SnowMiku (Apr 1, 2021)

These EF lenses are dropping like flies. I thought most of the EF L lenses would have at least a few more years left, but I think with the problems of COVID-19 it made Canon change plans and are discontinuing these sooner rather then later so they can move on to full production of RF.

They only need to make two APS-C RF cameras to out-phase the crop DSLR's, they could make the R7 and something to replace the xxD, maybe call it R70. The rest of the entry levels can stay as EF-M as the Mx and Mxx.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 1, 2021)

Del Paso said:


> I (egoistically!) just couldn't care less. I just hope they will not discontinue servicing the "old" lenses too soon.


Canon always previously suggested support for seven years after the lens is dropped, then the remaining parts are sold to third parties and it is down to luck on if the parts are available. Having said that some items have not been serviced even within that 7 year period, again I believe it depends on parts availability.


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## mclaren777 (Apr 1, 2021)

It's becoming more and more clear that Canon is never going to make the 5DV.


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## dtaylor (Apr 1, 2021)

The thing that bums me out about this is the possibility of wanting a lens but not having the money until after Canon discontinues it. There is the used market but still. I wonder what the plans are at Sigma and Tamron because each of them has a lens on my wish list.

Even though it wasn't on my wish list, the 70-200 f/4L IS II hits home. I would have guessed that was a popular lens. As good as it is, maybe Rebel buyers never look at it and 5D/1D buyers grab the f/2.8 instead?


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## sanj (Apr 1, 2021)

Mr Majestyk said:


> I would buy the EF version any day over the RF version and that's both f/4 and f/2.8 lenses. If I buy the R5 I'll be keeping all my EF glass as there's *basically no RF glass I care for *at this stage. Maybe if and when they release new lightweight 300 f/2.8 and 500 f/4 I migth swap my EF versions, or release that 100 f/2 macro I'l sell the old 100L.


You joking right? Yeah joking...


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## -pekr- (Apr 1, 2021)

sobrien said:


> Seriously?! The 2018-released and generally wonderful Canon EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM II?!
> 
> Wow. If true that is a remarkable statement of intent that EF is fully done and dusted. I mean the writing has very clearly been on the wall but discontinuing such a new and well received lens is shifting things up a few gears. The powers that be must feel very good about how the R series has gone and confident about its future.
> 
> As someone who has sold all my EF mount cameras and gone mostly RF, I’m not best placed to complain, but I’m still a little shocked.



If EF is done, then also EOS-M is done too.


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## dtaylor (Apr 1, 2021)

sanj said:


> You joking right? Yeah joking...



Why would he be joking? Maybe he doesn't like a collapsing design for a 70-200? Whenever I decide to buy an R body I won't necessarily swap any of my existing EF lenses either. I'm not knocking Canon's RF designs. But the *recent* L designs are just as good optically, and the added features (like a collapsing 70-200 or extra reach on the 100-500) aren't worth the upgrade cost to everyone.

Ironically the thing I would like most, IS on my 24-70, is the thing I won't have to have when I attach it to an R body thanks to IBIS. Sure lens IS + IBIS might yield more shake resistance, but IBIS alone would probably quench any desire to spend money upgrading (for me).


----------



## dtaylor (Apr 1, 2021)

-pekr- said:


> If EF is done, then also EOS-M is done too.



The bummer here is that EOS-M is so perfect as an ultra compact travel/street/hiking kit. There's nothing out there that can match a M6 mark II + 11-22 IS in terms of performance/size/weight. I wish they would keep EOS-M as kind of a specialty compact option. Just add a couple more really great lenses like the 22mm and the 11-22.


----------



## Del Paso (Apr 1, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> I'm still looking to get one when the prices ease and my business improves a touch. Meanwhile I have have the money set aside for an R5 and they are in stock everywhere and I just can't do it. Yes the R5 is a great camera but I still don't get on with EVF's despite trying hard to...
> 
> Meanwhile if anybody wants a low shutter count 1DX II with WFT-E8, RRS L-plate, and a ton of CFast cards drop me a line


Happy I'm not the only one still preferring the OVFs !


----------



## Joules (Apr 1, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I have never understood this line of reasoning.
> Canon just wants to sell cameras and lenses.
> They have no reason to cry every time someone buys a DSLR of EF lens.
> The only rationale for not making a 5D Mark V is if Canon thinks it is a poor investment for them.


Canon has no interest to maintain two product lines with very similar customer bases though. So they should like to eliminate the one with lesser profitability as soon as possible. If they had offered a 5D V some percentage of potential R5 buyers would have purchased that instead, extending the life of the EF lineup and also reducing the customer base for the more profitable RF lenses.

They can't fully kill off EF while RF doesn't capture a sufficiently large share of the market (due to offering to few bodies and lenses that don't cover all relevant price points). But by providing heavy incentives to go for RF, the point in time where they can comes closer.


----------



## DaveGrice (Apr 1, 2021)

Bert63 said:


> So no 5D5 then? Anyone?
> 
> (if anyone still seriously doubted that Canon was done with higher end DSLRs then I think is the proverbial writing on the wall... Stick a fork in it.)


No


----------



## BPhoto06 (Apr 1, 2021)

Canon should at least keep the L Lenses going for a while as they just released a professional 1DX in 2020 which people would want to buy the L Lenses for, especially the 70-200 f4l as the 1DX is an excellent sports camera and a 70-200 f4 would be really useful for that type of photography and people would prefer the f4 version as it is smaller, lighter and more compact and portable.


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## cayenne (Apr 1, 2021)

Del Paso said:


> Hi Cayenne!
> I wouldn't worry too much, since, thanks to companies like Novoflex, EF lenses can be adapted to other non-Canon cameras, Sony, Leica SL, Panasonic etc...


True....BUT, for how long will that work out?
Per my earlier post...it depends on how long Canon and other mirrorless camera bodies will incorporate electronics/software/signals that will through an adaptor work the aperture on the EF lenses.

My theory was that since the EF lenses don't have any way to manually set the aperture, at some point, newer camera bodies may stop bothering to control EF lenses as they become older and older.

It seems the lenses that are getting new leases on life via adaptors on mirrorless bodies, are the fully manual ones, or at least the ones that can be set manually.

It would be nice if modern lenses could be set to allow manual aperture mechanically, and then switch over for auto control by the body. That would ensure greater longevity on lenses....otherwise, these great lenses of the past will be rendered unusable.

EF lenses will be in the category some day potentially.

Then again, I guess if the future adapters are "smart", then they might be able to translate whatever protocol is in that body of the day into the old signals of the older lens.

But, that's gonna start driving adapters to be a bit more $$$ and specialized over time.

OH well...always fun to see what happens in the future.


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## cayenne (Apr 1, 2021)

BPhoto06 said:


> Canon should at least keep the L Lenses going for a while as they just released a professional 1DX in 2020 which people would want to buy the L Lenses for, especially the 70-200 f4l as the 1DX is an excellent sports camera and a 70-200 f4 would be really useful for that type of photography and people would prefer the f4 version as it is smaller, lighter and more compact and portable.


I just personally don't get it.
I've "lugged" around the 70-200 f/2.8 II for years and years, often shooting concert festivals...moving between stages backend forth on a pretty large set of grounds.

It just isn't a back breaker that people keep trying to paint it. I am NOT in great shape myself either, I'm a bit overweight, but while I was tired at the end of a full 10 hour day....carrying the 5D3, the 70-200 f/2.8, the 24-70 L, and the 11-14L (talk about an anchor of a lens) in a pack....

It certainly wasn't that big a deal. And these tests I'm talking about are usually 3-4 days at a time in a row...so, doing that every day.

Of course, lighter would be nicer. But, it isn't THAT big a deal.


----------



## unfocused (Apr 1, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I have never understood this line of reasoning.
> Canon just wants to sell cameras and lenses.
> They have no reason to cry every time someone buys a DSLR of EF lens.
> The only rationale for not making a 5D Mark V is if Canon thinks it is a poor investment for them.


I agree. Nikon has already said they intend to offer new DLSRs, although they've been coy about the timetable. Canon will decide the future of their DSLR systems based on the market, not on any secret agenda to force people to move to mirrorless.

No doubt Canon has a secret tipping point in mind that will determine if they can migrate enough DSLR users to the R system to justify dropping DSLRs. In these difficult times, I doubt that Canon wants to lose even 20 percent of their current DSLR base, so if they determine that a sizable percentage of customers are not going to migrate, they will continue making and updating DSLRs. In my opinion it is ridiculous to make these kinds of broad predictions now anyway, as the global pandemic and resulting shortages have completely thrown off all market predictions.


----------



## unfocused (Apr 1, 2021)

Joules said:


> Canon has no interest to maintain two product lines with very similar customer bases though. So they should like to eliminate the one with lesser profitability as soon as possible. If they had offered a 5D V some percentage of potential R5 buyers would have purchased that instead, extending the life of the EF lineup and also reducing the customer base for the more profitable RF lenses.
> 
> They can't fully kill off EF while RF doesn't capture a sufficiently large share of the market (due to offering to few bodies and lenses that don't cover all relevant price points). But by providing heavy incentives to go for RF, the point in time where they can comes closer.


I have to disagree. 

Canon has an interest in maintaining two product lines if they cannot successfully migrate existing customers to the new line. The camera market is shrinking and they can ill afford to just write off even 20% of their embedded customer base, so if they find they are going to lose loyal customers with high levels of disposable income they will adjust accordingly. I doubt if Canon knows the answer to that at this time and are probable hedging their bets.

Why do you assume the R and RF line is more profitable? You are equating profits with cost, but they aren't the same. The R and RF lines are more expensive, but the profit margins on the EF line are likely much higher since all the development and embedded costs have long since been paid for. 

I'd like to see what heavy incentives Canon is offering to convert users to the R line. So far, I'm not seeing any incentives to customers. The R and RF lines are more expensive and there have been no rebates or other incentives offered that would reduce the cost to customers. Simply discontinuing EF lenses and DSLR bodies is not an incentive.


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## cayenne (Apr 1, 2021)

unfocused said:


> I have to disagree.
> 
> Canon has an interest in maintaining two product lines if they cannot successfully migrate existing customers to the new line. The camera market is shrinking and they can ill afford to just write off even 20% of their embedded customer base, so if they find they are going to lose loyal customers with high levels of disposable income they will adjust accordingly. I doubt if Canon knows the answer to that at this time and are probable hedging their bets.
> 
> ...


I'm not the most technically savvy person when it comes to cameras.

But as far as I know, the RF mount lenses will NOT work on the Canon DSLR EF mount cameras.

And if Canon is dropping EF lenses left and right, that kinda indicates strongly to me, that they do not intend to make any new EF mount cameras, ie...no more DSLR mirror slappers.

So, unless the thought is that Canon will somehow drop the money to redesign a new mirror slapper camera, that will take RF lenses...or, that they intend to design and release an entirely new line of lenses that will fit on a DSLR body that yet to be released.....I think you can pretty clearly guess Canon at this time, does not plan to continue in the DSLR camera market.

Am I missing something here?


----------



## SteveC (Apr 1, 2021)

-pekr- said:


> If EF is done, then also EOS-M is done too.


 That doesn't follow, unless you didn't show some step in your argument.

They could discontinue every EF and EF-S lens and not touch EF-M.


----------



## Bert63 (Apr 1, 2021)

cayenne said:


> I just personally don't get it.
> I've "lugged" around the 70-200 f/2.8 II for years and years, often shooting concert festivals...moving between stages backend forth on a pretty large set of grounds.
> 
> It just isn't a back breaker that people keep trying to paint it. I am NOT in great shape myself either, I'm a bit overweight, but while I was tired at the end of a full 10 hour day....carrying the 5D3, the 70-200 f/2.8, the 24-70 L, and the 11-14L (talk about an anchor of a lens) in a pack....
> ...




9 times out of 10 I’m carrying two cameras - nowadays it’s theR5 with 100-400L II w/1.4X III on the right and the EOS-R (or 5D4 or 7D2) with the EF 70-200L f.2.8L, or RF 70-200L f2.8, or the EF 16-35 or whatever. It’s a 10-13 pound load. I’m not a young guy. I have long days and short days, but most are in the woods and the hills and cliffs of our little Island so it can be a thing.

I always chuckle when someone talks about how “heavy“ a lens is. Especially when it’s something like the 28-70 or the like.

I flash to Crocadile Dundee saying “that ain’t a knife...”


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## Bert63 (Apr 1, 2021)

unfocused said:


> Simply discontinuing EF lenses and DSLR bodies is not an incentive.


No, but it will move the process along.

Son’t doesn’t maintain two distinct product lines. If Canon is smart, they won’t either. They can’t and expect to be a segment leader.

People want mirrorless - like I said yesterday, I’m not sure if they know WHY they want mirrorless but it’s the trend and it’s what the marketing is pushing and it’s becoming harder and harder to convince the masses to look at DSLR when all of their friends are driving the latest mirrorless.

I’m sold on mirrorless for a host of reasons but I kept all my DSLRs too. I love them all. I just don’t see the next wave of new shooters being lured by old tech that is rapidly being left behind by the mirrorless world.

When they can’t even keep cameras on the shelves there is no reason to offer incentives.

I’m thinking maybe this holiday season. It becomes moot when you can call B&H Corporate and just ask them for a discount outright and get one. Who needs a rebate? I only paid $3700 + no tax for my R5 preorder... That’s $500 bucks saved at launch..


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## Skux (Apr 1, 2021)

I just hope they have something planned for entry-level and APS-C shooters in RF mount. People who want to get into photography/video are not spending $1300 on an EOS RP and kit lens, or shelling out the megabucks for RF glass. They'll either buy used or look at Sony or Fuji.


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## unfocused (Apr 1, 2021)

cayenne said:


> ...if Canon is dropping EF lenses left and right, that kinda indicates strongly to me, that they do not intend to make any new EF mount cameras, ie...no more DSLR mirror slappers...
> 
> Am I missing something here?


Yes. You are missing that this is a rumors site. CRGuy says that Canon is dropping EF lenses left and right, and it's true that they have retired some less popular lenses. But his claims about certain lenses are not backed up by any official sources and at least one rumor (regarding the 70-200 f4 II) seems particularly suspicious. It is in stock and readily available from all major retailers and on Canon's own site. 

If it turns out that Canon really is dropping EF lenses, then you will be correct. But right now, until Canon confirms this, all we have is rumors.


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## cayenne (Apr 1, 2021)

Bert63 said:


> It becomes moot when you can call B&H Corporate and just ask them for a discount outright and get one. Who needs a rebate? I only paid $3700 + no tax for my R5 preorder... That’s $500 bucks saved at launch..


You can do that?
B&H will deal with you?????


----------



## dtaylor (Apr 1, 2021)

cayenne said:


> True....BUT, for how long will that work out?
> Per my earlier post...it depends on how long Canon and other mirrorless camera bodies will incorporate electronics/software/signals that will through an adaptor work the aperture on the EF lenses.



I don't see why this would happen. I believe RF uses the EF pins, but adds a high speed serial channel for information dense communications like lens corrections built into the lens firmware. (I'm not sure if they're using it for that yet, but that's an example of why you would want a serial channel.) Otherwise EF signals are passed through to the R body.

As for the other mounts, EF translation is mostly a 'solved problem.' These types of things do not change often. If Sony completely replaced their mount protocol it would render their existing lenses useless as well as adapted lenses, for example. I just do not foresee mounts changing again, and changing so radically that adapter manufacturers do not want to update their adapters.

I'm fairly confident EF glass will be usable for decades to come, if not centuries. (Though on that timescale you start to face other threats such as a cell phone sensor/lens better than any ILC, people giving up photography for 3D virtual reality, an asteroid impact, World War 3, etc.)


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 2, 2021)

unfocused said:


> Why do you assume the R and RF line is more profitable? You are equating profits with cost, but they aren't the same. The R and RF lines are more expensive, but the profit margins on the EF line are likely much higher since all the development and embedded costs have long since been paid for.


I agree.
The RP and R are much cheaper than the latest 6D and 5D.
I assume that new versions of those cameras would cost about the same as R6 and R5.


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## -pekr- (Apr 2, 2021)

SteveC said:


> That doesn't follow, unless you didn't show some step in your argument.
> 
> They could discontinue every EF and EF-S lens and not touch EF-M.



In my book, it follows perfectly. Many ppl will state, that having larger lens does not fit the EOS-M and that ppl were not buying EF lens while on Rebels, thinking, that one day, they might use those on their FF body. Wrong!

So, the first mistake for Canon was not providing a compatibility with RF lens. The second mistake is, that they somehow EOL useful lenses preliminarily imo. Of course we can argue, how many ppl would have any such transition options in mind, but I had and every single DSLR Canon user I have met, discussiong the lens option, had that in mind too.

I can see only two ways from that:


Canon really having balls to continue with the EOS-M, announcing new lens designs for the M mount.
Canon slow scrapping EOS-M, doing the smallest possible APS-C with the RF mount, including the dedicated APS-C RF lens.


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## koenkooi (Apr 2, 2021)

Bert63 said:


> [..]
> People want mirrorless - like I said yesterday, I’m not sure if they know WHY they want mirrorless but it’s the trend and it’s what the marketing is pushing and it’s becoming harder and harder to convince the masses to look at DSLR when all of their friends are driving the latest mirrorless.[..]


For me, it started with wanting a smaller Canon ILC to take on my honeymoon and noticing the EOS-M fire sale. After getting back I discovered that Exposure Simulation and on-screen magnification makes using the MP-E almost easy! 
But that's a very, very niche use case


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## Mr Majestyk (Apr 2, 2021)

sanj said:


> You joking right? Yeah joking...


No, not at all. Only the 24-70 f/2.8L is of interest. Apart from that in Australia the RF glass is a total rip-off, 30% dearer at least than the EF versions. Also hate the new super-slow superteles, so as a birder they offer nothing to entice me into RF glass.


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## MartinF. (Apr 2, 2021)

Bert63 said:


> So no 5D5 then? Anyone?
> 
> (if anyone still seriously doubted that Canon was done with higher end DSLRs then I think is the proverbial writing on the wall... Stick a fork in it.)


Unfortunately I don't think so. It has earlier been leaked from Canon that there will be no direct 5D mkIV successor. My personally quess is/was that there will be one final EF mount camera - something between 6D mkII and 5DmkIV. Just to finish off the EF mount era, and a final camera for all the EF lenses out there. They have not yet official abandoned the EF mount - I quess that will be within the next five years. So a final EF mount DSLR with tree years form now? - well just guessing....


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## MartinF. (Apr 2, 2021)

dwarven said:


> Yeah, it definitely does. A lot of people have been predicting this for a long time now.


still guess for at final EF mount DSLR - something between 6D mkII and 5DmkIV - a officiel final tribute one or to years before they kill off the EF mount lens production approx five years from now (just guessing).


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## hollybush (Apr 2, 2021)

If it's really true that the 70–200mm f/4 IS II is being discontinued, I think Canon are playing with fire.

I can't be the only one who isn't ready for an all-mirrorless system but is considering adding one mirrorless body to my Canon SLR system. In my case it is the the R6, for video and better AF with bird and animal photography, but for others it might be other some other reason like wanting a silent shutter.

But for things I won't need the R6 for I want to continue using my DSLR. Therefore, I need lenses, and if one of my lenses breaks I want to be able to buy a new replacement from Canon, rather than used. And of all my lenses, my 70–200mm f/4 IS is the second oldest and the most worn, and they are known to have a pattern failure with the AF. I've had orphaned systems before where lenses had to be hunted down used (not so easy for some rarer lenses in Australia) and I'm not going back there ever again.

If I really won't be able to replace one or two lenses should I need to, that changes the whole calculation about whether to get the R6 at all, because then the mirrorless isn't a second body for special uses but the main body. And, frankly, the R6 is not good enough and the R5 is a ludicrous price here in Australia. (Pro tip for Canon: 1 AUD = 84 YEN, 5% *higher* than its usual value of 80 ¥. The prices are just chiselling.)

Nobody expects Canon to keep cruft like the 85mm f/1.8 EF around now, or to keep the EF L lenses around for another decade. But it's altogether too soon to be discontinuing bread and butter L lenses like the 70–200mm f4 IS II if Canon want to coax customers gradually over to the R system.


----------



## SteveC (Apr 2, 2021)

hollybush said:


> Nobody expects Canon to keep cruft like the 85mm f/1.8 EF around now...


Hey, I _like_ that lens!!!


----------



## Bert63 (Apr 2, 2021)

MartinF. said:


> Unfortunately I don't think so. It has earlier been leaked from Canon that there will be no direct 5D mkIV successor. My personally quess is/was that there will be one final EF mount camera - something between 6D mkII and 5DmkIV. Just to finish off the EF mount era, and a final camera for all the EF lenses out there. They have not yet official abandoned the EF mount - I quess that will be within the next five years. So a final EF mount DSLR with tree years form now? - well just guessing....




It was pure sarcasm based on the discussions here previously..

I knew there would be no 5D4 when the R5 announced.


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## Bert63 (Apr 2, 2021)

cayenne said:


> You can do that?
> B&H will deal with you?????




Never had a problem.


----------



## dtaylor (Apr 3, 2021)

hollybush said:


> Nobody expects Canon to keep cruft like the 85mm f/1.8 EF around now, or to keep the EF L lenses around for another decade. But it's altogether too soon to be discontinuing bread and butter L lenses like the 70–200mm f4 IS II if Canon want to coax customers gradually over to the R system.



What is the source claiming the 70-200 f/4L IS II is being discontinued? It's in stock at B&H, Adorama, and Amazon. Mind you B&H shows the 40mm as discontinued.

*Edit:* I realized after posting this that it sounds like I'm asking CR to reveal a source. I'm not. For some reason I thought it was showing as discontinued at some store and that's how this started.


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## stevelee (Apr 3, 2021)

SteveC said:


> Hey, I _like_ that lens!!!


I do, too. I bought a refurb when it was on sale. I was using the 100mm macro for portraits, but thought the look too “clinical.” So I got the very affordable 85mm and found it much better than I expected. I’m not part of the crowd that wants portraits with one eye in focus and one eye blurry, so f/1.8 is plenty big for me.


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## stevelee (Apr 3, 2021)

dtaylor said:


> What is the source claiming the 70-200 f/4L IS II is being discontinued? It's in stock at B&H, Adorama, and Amazon. Mind you B&H shows the 40mm as discontinued.
> 
> *Edit:* I realized after posting this that it sounds like I'm asking CR to reveal a source. I'm not. For some reason I thought it was showing as discontinued at some store and that's how this started.


My friend who works at a camera store in RI posted that he got a list a month ago from Canon of lenses to be discontinued.


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## unfocused (Apr 3, 2021)

dtaylor said:


> What is the source claiming the 70-200 f/4L IS II is being discontinued? It's in stock at B&H, Adorama, and Amazon. Mind you B&H shows the 40mm as discontinued.
> 
> *Edit:* I realized after posting this that it sounds like I'm asking CR to reveal a source. I'm not. For some reason I thought it was showing as discontinued at some store and that's how this started.


I also question the source. I'll wait to see some solid evidence before believing this.


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## Joules (Apr 5, 2021)

unfocused said:


> I have to disagree.
> 
> Canon has an interest in maintaining two product lines if they cannot successfully migrate existing customers to the new line. The camera market is shrinking and they can ill afford to just write off even 20% of their embedded customer base, so if they find they are going to lose loyal customers with high levels of disposable income they will adjust accordingly. I doubt if Canon knows the answer to that at this time and are probable hedging their bets.
> 
> ...


You make a few points that I don't see the same way.

The market is shrinking. But that does not mean that Canon has to focus on maximizing the absolute number of customers they maintain. Survival in a market niche isn't about size, it is about the relation between the prices customers are willing to pay and what it costs the manufacturer to provide the respective goods. It is better to specialize into products that are really profitable instead of insisting on capturing the whole market only to just scrape by. Currently, Canon has two seperate product lines that cover overlapping markets. There are both customers that are not interested in mirrorless for a variety of valid reasons (battery life, latency, eye fatigue, ...) and customers that are not interested in DSLR (just coming into photography from a smartphone, or prioritizing size over other aspects, for example). But for the most part, I believe the market Canon targets is just people who just want to take high quality images in an enjoyable fashion, and most customers will not restrict their purchase to either DSLR or mirrorless and focus on more important specs.

You say I am equating profits with costs, but I fully agree they are not the same. Although I believe you meant price there - which is also very different from profit, which I understand to mean price minus costs here. So why do I assume the RF ecosystem is more profitable? Well, for one that is what Canon seems to want investors to believe, since they use that wording in the financial reports I've seen. But it also makes sense just from this:

They have two product lines. There are a number of processes and components that they can share between both. The batteries, Digic X SoC, image sensor manufacturing, memory interface, etc. Then there are those that differ, like the specific tooling for the seperate body shapes and mounts, but at least the materials are the same. And then there are differing components.

Exclusive to EF are mostly the mirror, the seperate metering and focusing sensor assemblies. In the RF ecosystem, there are EVF screens, which aren't shared with DSLR, and technically also the IBIS assembly, though I'll get back to that later. While high density OLED displays are an improving technology that is also heavily used in seperate consumer electronics industries (smartphones, VR headsets, ...), the mirrors are a mature technology and for the metering and focusing it is just extra CMOS sensors for the latest generation of DSLR we've seen (1DX III, D6). Crucially, these are the components that need to improve to offer technical advancements in FPS and AF tracking. Given that even in their most expensive, professional tool Canon could not match the AF capabilities already found in the much lower end R6 (that is just a marginally newer product), I think it is fair to assume pushing the capability of DSLR AF is more expensive than even a 1 series customer base can justify.

In short, I'm under the impression that the components exclusive to the RF ecosystem are cheaper to source/produce and develop, than those exclusive to EF. If you have some differing view of that, I am interested.

As for lenses, it is simpler. The RF mount lifts some design constraints, making development easier or enabling new desings like the RF 28-70 mm 2.8 for more attractive offerings. And they have the benefit of being designed specifically for the current level of manufacturing technoloy and most importantly automation.

So with the assumption that the market for both ecosystems is largely the same and that the manufacturing costs exclusive to EF is greater than those for RF, that means two things:

- Most of the time, Canon will either sell an EF or an RF body. Meaning if they want to maximize profit, they should promote the more profitable one.
- With sales going down, there is more room to breathe in the RF portfolio pricing. For one, they have already established it as being more pricy. And the exlusive components are most likely being sourced externally and therefore not subject to as much economy of scale effects as the AF/metering sensors, which I assume are made in house.

So the more people stop buying EF, the more costly EF becomes to keep around.

There is another factor to consider with regards to the shrinking market. It is not shrinking the same way and for the same reasons at all price segments. On the low end, there is substantial shrinking going on, mostly due to people just not caring enough about IQ to justify spending and carrying so much over their already decent smartphone. And while also true for all other segments, saturation plays a role in the high end. With both the RF mount and RF lenses, Canon can stimulate demand somewhat just by offering something new and shiny that people can buy all over again. So while you are right that R&D for most of the EF lens portolio has fully been paid for, for most EF lenses the people who wanted one have already bought one. So mid-term you can expect a higher number of units sold for a given RF design, than the EF counterpart, lowering costs due to economies of scale. That's not what I meant with the incentives you questioned though.

While I disagree that 'crippling' EF (no eye EF update for the 1DX III in LiveView, no 7D III, no 5D V, ...) is not incentivizing towards RF, there are clear benefits to the RF system that elevate it above EF. You Get What You See is the classic one, but AF performance and mostly the IBIS are others. The EF image circle restraints and the mirrorbox, as well as the issue of misalignment between the OVF image and the sensor image mean that IBIS on EF would have never come close. For AF, I already discussed it. And of course the exciting lens designs that the lack of equivalents in EF (or other DSLR mount) indicates would not have been feasible otherwise.

I could elaborate further, but I think I have made my point. In any case, Canon has not shown much effort into keeping EF customers optimistic about the ecosystem. I think they very much have made their choice, and if you are unstatisfied with my explanation for that, attempting to get in touch with someone actually involved in the company would be you best bet for getting a more meaningful one, I think.


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## canonnews (Apr 5, 2021)

dtaylor said:


> What is the source claiming the 70-200 f/4L IS II is being discontinued? It's in stock at B&H, Adorama, and Amazon. Mind you B&H shows the 40mm as discontinued.
> 
> *Edit:* I realized after posting this that it sounds like I'm asking CR to reveal a source. I'm not. For some reason I thought it was showing as discontinued at some store and that's how this started.


we went through this on this post, and possibly the reason why these lenses are being said as being discontinued. It certainly appears as if they are.









Canon discontinuing EF lenses at a rapid pace


According to CanonRumors, Canon is actively moving away from the EF mount at what is a record pace. I would have normally expected lenses to be still manufactured by Canon for at least 5+ years after the RF mount was released in 2018. We verified the CanonRumors list against Canon USA's...



www.canonnews.com


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## bdeutsch (Apr 5, 2021)

MartinF. said:


> My personally quess is/was that there will be one final EF mount camera - something between 6D mkII and 5DmkIV. Just to finish off the EF mount era, and a final camera for all the EF lenses out there.


Seems a pretty narrow range of a camera to try to be between the between 6D mkII and 5D mkIV. What (and more importantly why) in the world would that be?


Deutsch Photography: NYC’s Top Corporate, Executive and Actor Headshot Photographer NYC


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## cayenne (Apr 5, 2021)

Bert63 said:


> Never had a problem.


Thank you, interesting.
So, you just call sales dept and ask them what's the best price they can give you?

Have you done this on both bodies and lenses?

Thanks in advance,
C


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## [email protected] (Apr 5, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Thanks, I have added it to the list.



Shame they pulling EF lenses - the 70-200 F4 I & II are legendary lenses, although can see why Canon is doing it - concentrating all resources to RF and getting punters to move over from EF to RF mount.


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## unfocused (Apr 5, 2021)

Joules said:


> You make a few points that I don't see the same way.
> 
> The market is shrinking. But that does not mean that Canon has to focus on maximizing the absolute number of customers they maintain. Survival in a market niche isn't about size, it is about the relation between the prices customers are willing to pay and what it costs the manufacturer to provide the respective goods. It is better to specialize into products that are really profitable instead of insisting on capturing the whole market only to just scrape by. Currently, Canon has two seperate product lines that cover overlapping markets. There are both customers that are not interested in mirrorless for a variety of valid reasons (battery life, latency, eye fatigue, ...) and customers that are not interested in DSLR (just coming into photography from a smartphone, or prioritizing size over other aspects, for example). But for the most part, I believe the market Canon targets is just people who just want to take high quality images in an enjoyable fashion, and most customers will not restrict their purchase to either DSLR or mirrorless and focus on more important specs.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the thoughtful response. You make a number of valid points. 

My primary objection is to those who make unequivocal statements that Canon is abandoning the EF and DSLR segment. They might be. I honestly don't know. I was a relatively early adopter of the R and while I personally like it and can see the protentional, I recognize that there remain many advantages for DSLRs as well. I personally view myself as somewhat agnostic on Canon's future direction. I can see and make arguments both in favor of continuing DSLR and R lines and against continuing both. 

I feel there are just too many unknowns for anyone to accurately predict the future direction Canon will take. Honestly, I doubt if Canon knows. Nikon has said they will continue to develop and release DSLRs, which given the history of the two companies, would argue that Canon is likely to do the same. At this point, Canon can keep their options open and see where the market goes. 

I would, though, like to address your comments about survival in a niche market. I agree with your statement that it "isn't about size, it is about the relation between the prices customers are willing to pay and what it costs the manufacturer to provide the respective goods." Pursuing 100% of a market is a good way for any company to go bankrupt, so yes, the cost/benefit of keeping all Canon customers may not be cost effective. On the other hand, the cost of keeping a customer is always less than that of capturing a new customer, especially in a market that is either stable or shrinking. 

The unknown is what percentage of existing customers Canon can retain with the R system and what percentage they will lose either to competitors (If Nikon does indeed continue to develop DSLRs) or simply lose to people deciding not to purchase new cameras (the current state of DSLRs and EF system is good enough that one can argue that no one truly 'needs' a new camera or lens and given the aging out of the customer base, it is certainly plausible that many current customers may never buy another camera if the R system does not excite them).

I would argue that given that Canon currently is well-positioned to maintain both lines (since that is what they have been doing and are making a profit) it is most likely that they will continue to develop the R system and carefully watch the numbers. If at some point they determine they have maxed out on converting existing customers to the new system and see they still have a sizeable base of customers who remain attached to DSLRs, we may see them update their DSLR and EF lines. The refresh cycle may be longer and future EF lenses may simply be III, IV or V versions of existing lenses, but it is certainly plausible that could occur.

The biggest problem of course, is not RF vs. EF, it is interchangeable lens cameras vs. everything else. And, as far as that goes, I wouldn't even venture a guess as to where things are headed.


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## Ozarker (Apr 5, 2021)

This thread has proven something important. I have seen f/4 lenses get all kinds of hate at times. Now the other side of the coin is revealed with descriptions like “legendary “. What does this prove? That we should never assume that what we don’t like is a viewpoint shared by everyone else.


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 5, 2021)

unfocused said:


> The biggest problem of course, is not RF vs. EF, it is interchangeable lens cameras vs. everything else. And, as far as that goes, I wouldn't even venture a guess as to where things are headed.


It is not only RF vs EF.
If Canon kills off EF then they pretty much have to kill off EF-M.
That would be putting all of its eggs in the same basket.
Fuji and Pansonic both have 2 incompatible mounts.
Canon has 2 incompatible mounts and a 3rd mount that adapts to the other 2.
Canon may well end up with only 1 mount but right now only they have 5 cameras and 18 lenses.
I can't see how that is enough evidence to say that any of the other 2 camera systems are toast.


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## unfocused (Apr 5, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> It is not only RF vs EF.
> If Canon kills off EF then they pretty much have to kill off EF-M.
> That would be putting all of its eggs in the same basket.
> Fuji and Pansonic both have 2 incompatible mounts.
> ...


You know, that is an excellent point and one that gets little to no attention here. Abandoning EF sets off the dominos in EF-M *and* EF-S. The bulk of camera sales are in the EF-M and EF-S lines and Canon would need to have one heck of a lot of confidence in the future of RF to jump off that cliff.


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## SteveC (Apr 6, 2021)

unfocused said:


> You know, that is an excellent point and one that gets little to no attention here. Abandoning EF sets off the dominos in EF-M *and* EF-S. The bulk of camera sales are in the EF-M and EF-S lines and Canon would need to have one heck of a lot of confidence in the future of RF to jump off that cliff.



Again, that doesn't make sense. I can see EF-S _necessarily_ being killed (because, after all it's only a minor mod to the EF mount), but EF-M is a totally different animal in spite of the similarity in name.

It may be on the chopping block, but not just because EF is.

And there's one very good reason to keep EF-M: the sales of M50s are fantastic!


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## Ruined (Apr 6, 2021)

Well, this got me to buy an EF 85mm f/1.2L II to go with my 50mm f/1.2L and 70-200 f/2.8 IS. These three will cover me for most things I want it do, tho I may need an UWA too.


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## stevelee (Apr 6, 2021)

unfocused said:


> The unknown is what percentage of existing customers Canon can retain with the R system and what percentage they will lose either to competitors (If Nikon does indeed continue to develop DSLRs) or simply lose to people deciding not to purchase new cameras (the current state of DSLRs and EF system is good enough that one can argue that no one truly 'needs' a new camera or lens and given the aging out of the customer base, it is certainly plausible that many current customers may never buy another camera if the R system does not excite them).


I think you have described me. While I always enjoy getting new toys, I can’t think of anything that would make me make a major photo purchase at this point. I never pick up my camera and think, “Gee, I wish this thing didn’t have a mirror,” or even, “I sure wish this camera could . . . ,” or even ”I need a different lens.” Money doesn’t even come into it. I have a year’s worth of travel and entertainment funds lying around in my checking accounts waiting for me to go somewhere and do something. I’m still interested in where technology is going, and so I keep reading this board. But it is no longer a matter of my coming here to follow rumors to see when something I am waiting for will come out.


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## quiquae (Apr 6, 2021)

canonnews said:


> we went through this on this post, and possibly the reason why these lenses are being said as being discontinued. It certainly appears as if they are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As a counter-argument, Canon Japan posts a list of support period for its products. Support expiring roughly seven years after discontinuation, and current products are marked as "undetermined" (未定)。 (The page is in Japanese, but you should be able to make out the dates without Google Translate's help.)

According to that web page, 40STM, EF-S 60, 85F1.2L, 200F2L, 70-200F2.8L(non-IS), 300F4L, EF-S 18-200 all have support expiration dates defined, a good indication that they are indeed discontinued. But 70-200F4L II, 85F1.8, and 800F5.6L do NOT have expiration dates attached to them.

Another data point from Canon Japan is their catalogue of EF lenses, which show "low inventory" (在庫僅少) or "discontinued" (販売終了) on some lenses. 40, 60, 85F1.2L, 200, 70-200F2.8L, 300, 18-200 all have either "low inventory" next to them, while 70-200F4L II, 85F1.8, and 800 do not have anything attached to them. So this list correlates cleanly with the earlier list, and not with Canon USA's list of "out of stock" items.

tl;dr: I am highly skeptical about 70-200F4L II being actually discontinued. Considering the extreme supply constraints on RF lenses right now*, a more likely explanation is that Canon is using all of its manufacturing lines to push out RF lenses, and they don't have a timetable on when they'll get back to producing the poorer-selling EF lenses.

* Last weekend, a sales rep at one of the major camera shops in Tokyo told me that he doesn't have any RF lens in stock except RF 50 STM. Yow.


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## hollybush (Apr 6, 2021)

quiquae said:


> ... all have support expiration dates defined, a good indication that they are indeed discontinued...
> 
> Another data point from Canon Japan is their catalogue of EF lenses, which show "low inventory" (在庫僅少) or "discontinued" (販売終了) on some lenses.



The 180mm f/3.5 L macro has an end of support date of November 2027 but is not marked as either "low inventory" or "discontinued" in your second link. (It's also available from a local retailer here in Australia.) I don't think they ever sold many copies, so I guess it's possible that they don't have many left but the few they do have is enough to sell for a long time.


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## Maximilian (Apr 6, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> ... I have seen f/4 lenses get all kinds of hate at times. ...


Fully agree. 
I don't get general judgements and opinions at all. Every photog and every subject is different.
Of course an execellent wide aperture lens (zoom or prime) is always the more versatile tool. But also more expensive, bigger and heavier. 
And - yes - more critical and difficult to use to the max.
But if a lens serves ones purposes well, e.g. because it is small, light, has excellent IQ wide open at f/4 or simply does the job, then why diminish that tool.


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## koenkooi (Apr 6, 2021)

hollybush said:


> The 180mm f/3.5 L macro has an end of support date of November 2027 but is not marked as either "low inventory" or "discontinued" in your second link. (It's also available from a local retailer here in Australia.) I don't think they ever sold many copies, so I guess it's possible that they don't have many left but the few they do have is enough to sell for a long time.


The date code on the 180L I bought in July 2020 is 'UH0318', which decodes to a production date of March 2019. That was a lot more recent than I expected, less than 18 months between manufacture and sale.


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## canonnews (Apr 6, 2021)

quiquae said:


> As a counter-argument, Canon Japan posts a list of support period for its products. Support expiring roughly seven years after discontinuation, and current products are marked as "undetermined" (未定)。 (The page is in Japanese, but you should be able to make out the dates without Google Translate's help.)
> 
> According to that web page, 40STM, EF-S 60, 85F1.2L, 200F2L, 70-200F2.8L(non-IS), 300F4L, EF-S 18-200 all have support expiration dates defined, a good indication that they are indeed discontinued. But 70-200F4L II, 85F1.8, and 800F5.6L do NOT have expiration dates attached to them.
> 
> ...


Interesting!

However, to counterpoint, there is no reason Canon USA would prevent users from placing orders on back ordered items if they were going to get in stock.
if anything, people placing orders on back-ordered items allows them to judge better how many they need to get from Japan. For instance, there are at least a dozen EF lenses all on backorder, all of them would be in the same scenario - unlikely to know when they would be shipped overseas from Japan again. The only reason to prevent someone from ordering is that you don't expect any stock. ever. Also, one region may run out of stock faster than others. Consider that Japan leads in switching to mirrorless and USA still is quite lagging behind, it would stand to reason that Canon USA may run out of inventory quicker than Japan.


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## ctk (Apr 7, 2021)

Maximilian said:


> What gets me totally puzzeled is what they are planning for the Rebel/Kiss/xxxD/xxxxD/EF-S audience.
> Esp. with the rumors that EOS M system is about to end, too.
> Is that consumer market dead and lost to smartphones?
> Will it continue? Will there be something else?


I don't know about EOS M, but I can say with some level of confidence that in 2021 the Rebel/Kiss/etc audience does not exist. And if they do, they have millions of used/new-old-stock bodies to choose from. From Canon's POV there's no point in dedicating any production capacity to them.

I hope they invest in EOS M. They are 2-3 bodies and maybe 3-4 lenses from having a full entry level system there. I would seriously consider ditching my R to go to EOS M if the right bodies and lenses were there (IBIS 32.5 MP body, decent 15-xx zoom)


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 8, 2021)

ctk said:


> I don't know about EOS M, but I can say with some level of confidence that in 2021 the Rebel/Kiss/etc audience does not exist.


T7 is Canon's top-selling camera.


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## MartinF. (Apr 8, 2021)

bdeutsch said:


> Seems a pretty narrow range of a camera to try to be between the between 6D mkII and 5D mkIV. What (and more importantly why) in the world would that be?
> 
> Deutsch Photography: NYC’s Top Corporate, Executive and Actor Headshot Photographer NYC


My only argument is, that Canon has more or less official said, that there will be no direct successor for the 5DmkIV. 
That statement opens for final EF mount DSLR. And my quess is (was) that it would be a no-nonsense 5D style camera for primary still shooters. 
However - as writing this on april 8th. and with the announcement of further discontinued EF lenses, I am not to sure that there will ever me one more final EF mount camera.


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## ctk (Apr 9, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> T7 is Canon's top-selling camera.


OK, so there is an audience. But they generally don't buy anything after the camera kit, and they are shrinking in number. Canon will probably keep a handful of EF-S kits on hand, but anything beyond that will be in EF-M or RF.


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 9, 2021)

Going thru the list:
There is no evidence EF 14 mm f/2,8 USM II is discontinued (Maybe the prior version).
There is no evidence EF 24-70mm f/4L IS USM is discontinued
There is an EF 70-200 f/2.8L IS II USM which is newer and better.
There is no evidence EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM II is discontinued (Maybe the prior version).
The big white primes are surprising and have nothing I would consider as a replacement on EF or RF but those lenses are crazy expensive. Maybe they are going to be made to order?)


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## Ruined (Apr 9, 2021)

unfocused said:


> The unknown is what percentage of existing customers Canon can retain with the R system and what percentage they will lose either to competitors (If Nikon does indeed continue to develop DSLRs) or simply lose to people deciding not to purchase new cameras (the current state of DSLRs and EF system is good enough that one can argue that no one truly 'needs' a new camera or lens and given the aging out of the customer base, it is certainly plausible that many current customers may never buy another camera if the R system does not excite them).



I would buy every lens in the EF lineup before I considered buying into the R system, heh. As you stated, the "R" does not excite me. No more EF = no more sales for this photog. Don't think need to switch to another brand as all the EF lenses Canon already has are reference level IMO.


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 9, 2021)

Ruined said:


> I would buy every lens in the EF lineup before I considered buying into the R system, heh. As you stated, the "R" does not excite me. No more EF = no more sales for this photog. Don't think need to switch to another brand as all the EF lenses Canon already has are reference level IMO.


Let's not get carried away.
Some of those lenses are pretty expensive.
If Canon made a 5D with IBIS then I would never have bought an R5.
I am glad that I did.
I already had a G9 so it was not my first DSLM.
That being said I am not completely sold on mirrorless and still want a DSLR.
If Canon makes a 5D or 6D with IBIS or Nikon does the same then they have an automatic sale from me.
I have looked into Pentax and the K1 seems prehistoric.
I heard that Olympus started IBIS first with DSLRs but only Pentax followed them.
Panasonic was the first that I am aware of to do IBIS + OIS + EIS which was the main reason I got a G9.
Canon and Nikon are now doing the same but unfortunately only on mirrorless.
There is no reason that I am aware of that they can't do that on DSLRs.


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## Ozarker (Apr 9, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Let's not get carried away.
> Some of those lenses are pretty expensive.
> If Canon made a 5D with IBIS then I would never have bought an R5.
> I am glad that I did.
> ...


Which Olympus DSLR had IBIS? Pentax DSLR with IBIS? News to me. I only go back about 12 years, but must admit I am ignorant about DSLR cameras with IBIS.


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## Sporgon (Apr 10, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Which Olympus DSLR had IBIS? Pentax DSLR with IBIS? News to me. I only go back about 12 years, but must admit I am ignorant about DSLR cameras with IBIS.


Pentax have had IBIS in their DSLRs since time began


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## SkynetTX (Apr 27, 2021)

Discontinuing all EF lenses is a really bad idea from Canon. There are a lot of lenses that could be improved. I'm pretty sure that an EF-S 60mm f/2.8 IS USM Macro would be welcomed by a lot of people. Ok, discontinue the first two version of any lens that has a third version or the first if there's a second one. But the RF mount versions of the lenses are a totally diffrent system despite of the converters. So Canon should keep developing EF mount lenses for those who don't want or can't change to mirrorles cameras. Let's hope that Tamron and Sigma won't be this stupid and will develop EF mount lenses in the near (and not so near) future.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 27, 2021)

SkynetTX said:


> Discontinuing all EF lenses is a really bad idea from Canon. There are a lot of lenses that could be improved. I'm pretty sure that an EF-S 60mm f/2.8 IS USM Macro would be welcomed by a lot of people. Ok, discontinue the first two version of any lens that has a third version or the first if there's a second one. But the RF mount versions of the lenses are a totally diffrent system despite of the converters. So Canon should keep developing EF mount lenses for those who don't want or can't change to mirrorles cameras. Let's hope that Tamron and Sigma won't be this stupid and will develop EF mount lenses in the near (and not so near) future.


Look, it is life, Canon are committed to RF, that is just the truth of it. You might not see the financial benefits of that decision but they know the numbers and they believe the case is made. But don’t forget, Canon’s continued support for discontinued products generally lasts seven years after they are officially discontinued, that means you have at least seven more years of useful support.

But look at it this way, whilst you might not be into RF at the moment do you think you might be in 5 years time when there are cheaper used bodies and lenses available? When the range of new lenses and bodies with better AF, DR, IS etc etc than ever available in EF? Well in five years time Canon will still be supporting those EF lenses you want to sell to get RF versions. Canon are not out of the EF space yet, they are saying they are going to be out of it in 7 years time.


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Look, it is life, Canon are committed to RF


No, they are not.
If RF was not selling then Canon would drop it like a hot potato.
People here seem to confuse business with religion.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> No, they are not.
> If RF was not selling then Canon would drop it like a hot potato.
> People here seem to confuse business with religion.


It takes years for corporations to make system changes like FD to EF, and even more so EF to RF. The investment is massive and the time and money incredible. Believe me Canon are 100% committed to RF at this point, even their C line is becoming RF.

They held back and were slow to put their toes in the FF MILC water, they launched some lackluster bodies and a very limited number of lenses. That was the only time or opportunity they had to pull back from RF and reimagine the EF, they didn’t do it so now that are 100% committed to RF.

That isn’t religion it is cold hard realization of business facts of life. I am still 100% in the EF camp and would love more development in it, but it isn’t going to happen. If RF sales drop, and there isn’t a single indication they will, then they will redouble their efforts in it.


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## SkynetTX (Apr 29, 2021)

Well, I don't know what features of cameras and lenses will have in five years from now or how much will they cost but I'm almost certain that I will not want to change. Why? Because I'm not really interested in the new features I read about here.
Just to mention the latest: eye controlled AF. I think you simply don't need more than 5x6 AF points in a camera. Or In-body Image Stabilization. Ok, it will probably make lenses smaller. But will it be included in all cameras? What if a camera with IBIS goes wrong and the replacement camera does not have this feature? And if the lenses still will have IS what do we need the IBIS for? How can I turn off IBIS if I don't need it for any reason? On lenses I simply switch it off with the IS switch. Will it have a button on the camera to make turning on and off simple?
Touch-screen? Button illumination? Vari-angle screens? What for? I made a self portrait with my 1200D and only needed a remote controller and two shots to get a picture that was perfect for my needs. The more software and electronic parts you have in a camera the more things that can go wrong. By the way, this step in my opinion is very similar to the decision of motherboard makers: all motherboards you can buy could run any modern games and you have to buy it even if you would like to use your computer only for text editing and mailing and never want to run any stupid FPS (or other) games.


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