# A Loose Roadmap [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 1, 2011)

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<p><strong>What’s coming in 2012

</strong>Received some info about a “loose roadmap” for Canon in 2012.</p>
<p>Two things were noted about 2012.</p>
<ol>
<li>It’s the 25th anniversary of EOS</li>
<li>It’s an Olympic year as well as Euro 2012.</li>
</ol>
<p>We will see a DSLR that will be showing for CES/PMA in the 2nd week of January 2012. When the announcement for the camera would be was unknown.</p>
<p>A new 1Ds would follow sometime in February.</p>
<p>Photokina would bring about a 5D Mark II replacement as well as a 7D replacement.</p>
<p><strong>Lenses

</strong>All that was said is Canon is concerned about getting production up and then they’ll start announcing lenses. The next round of lenses would be “higher end short focal lengths”.</p>
<p>It was also noted that a lot of existing lenses are on the upgrade schedule, though none were listed.</p>
<p>It was stressed that roadmaps are extremely loose within Canon, and stuff is announced when it’s done. It was noted the trade show schedule isn’t as important as it used to be, though they still want to be talked about at both CES and Photokina.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## bornshooter (Oct 1, 2011)

let say a dslr is announced on the 26th do you think it will be available for xmas?


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## djw (Oct 1, 2011)

A 5D Mark III replacement in September 2012!? Glad this is not a CR3 - I think I'd go into hibernation


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## Dave (Oct 1, 2011)

I Wonder if Canon will wait that long for a 5D release... 
If I were canon I would release the 5D asap, the 1D next year before the Olypmics and the 70D at the photokina, and the 7D at Christmas (2012) or later...

The 600D definetley will get a successor in next year and the 60D probably too... So 2012 will be a VERY VERY interesting year for Canon SLRs since we may see releases of Canons complete SLR lineup.



bornshooter said:


> let say a dslr is announced on the 26th do you think it will be available for xmas?



Probably not 2011


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## J. McCabe (Oct 1, 2011)

Canon Rumors said:


> All that was said is Canon is concerned about getting production up and then theyâ€™ll start announcing lenses. The next round of lenses would be â€œhigher end short focal lengthsâ€.



As the 24mm f/1.4 L was upgraded in 2008 & the 14mm f/2.8 L in 2007, I guess this might mean the 35mm f/1.4L, and possibly new 20mm L & 28mm L.

Personally, I'm not going to buy any of those. If Canon upgraded the 35mm f/2 & the 24mm f/2.8, I might very well buy both.


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## Dave (Oct 1, 2011)

A new 50mm 1,4 (with a real USM) would be quite nice...


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## Polansky (Oct 1, 2011)

No way this is ever going to happen.

Canon will NOT launch 3 pro grade camera's within a years time.
They have never done so and they will never do.

I start to think that Mr Canon Rumors has no idea about how a camera manufacturer works.
Up until now Mr CanonRumors has never had it right until 1 meaby 2 days before anouncement this is very much in contradiction with NikonRumors where things have been leaked out month before.

I sometimes even wonder why I bother to read this anyway... probably just for the funfactor.


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## DJL329 (Oct 1, 2011)

Dave said:


> A new 50mm 1,4 (with a real USM) would be quite nice...



+1,000,000! 

The 50mm f/1.4 is one the older lenses in Canon's lineup and, yes, the micro USM really needs to go (had mine repaired last summer). I'm also hoping, as with most of the updated lenses released in the past few years, that it gets a shorter MFD. The 28mm f/1.8 and 85mm f/1.8 are of similar ages (all three are in the 1992-1995 range), but at least they have ring USM and better build quality.

The 35mm f/1.4L is the most likely candidate, as all of the other sub-telephoto "L" primes have already been replaced/updated. The long-rumored update to the 24-70mm f/2.8L is another possibility.

As for the non-USM EF lenses (35mm f/2, 24mm f/2.8, etc.), I don't see them getting updated anytime soon. They certainly don't qualify as â€œhigher end short focal lengths," as the posted rumor states.


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## Woody (Oct 1, 2011)

Polansky said:


> I start to think that Mr Canon Rumors has no idea about how a camera manufacturer works.



That's why it's CR1.  

I doubt the 7D will get an update UNLESS the 600D replacement has a radical design. In terms of image quality, it still rules over the Sony A77 and Nikon D300s.



Polansky said:


> Up until now Mr CanonRumors has never had it right until 1 meaby 2 days before anouncement this is very much in contradiction with NikonRumors where things have been leaked out month before.



I sometimes wonder about that too. Does this also mean Canon does a better job in keeping their secrets?


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## Woody (Oct 1, 2011)

Don't forget Canon has a patent for a 14-24 f/2.8 lens too. 

I am most keen on replacements for the 28 f/1.8 and 50 f/1.4.


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## keithfullermusic (Oct 1, 2011)

Why would you release it ASAP? If the camera is still selling well they will not release a new one. Canon is in the business to make money, and releasing a new product costs lots of money. Not only that, but it gets cheaper and cheaper the longer you make a product. You learn how to make them more efficiently and you get lower costs from suppliers.

Believe me, I want a 5Diii as much as anyone, but Canon is not going to release a new one until sales of the current one begin to slip below acceptable levels. 



Dave said:


> I Wonder if Canon will wait that long for a 5D release...
> If I were canon I would release the 5D asap, the 1D next year before the Olypmics and the 70D at the photokina, and the 7D at Christmas (2012) or later...
> 
> The 600D definetley will get a successor in next year and the 60D probably too... So 2012 will be a VERY VERY interesting year for Canon SLRs since we may see releases of Canons complete SLR lineup.
> ...


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## chito (Oct 1, 2011)

The most logical thing to do is release a 1Ds replacement.. I mean, really.. it's time to retire Digic 3.. It wouldn't make sense to continue it just for the 1DsIII and there _has_ to be a pro camera Digic 5 before they release a 650D with a digic 5.. at least that's what it looks like when you see how they've released their cameras relative to their digic chips.. It would probably kill the 60D (and seriously hurt the 7D) if the 650D is superior in IQ (unless they heavily cripple it). Or they might release a 650D with a Digic 4...


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## Haydn1971 (Oct 1, 2011)

Hmmm.... Higher end short focal length, that could be zoom or primes, so, by dates

Wishful thinking perhaps, but with the idea of an entry level FF camera body...
1990 - 35mm non L (very old, wild card make f1.8, add USM, make entry level L - Â£400 ? - 2013 ?)
1992 - 24mm non L (very old, wild card make f2.0, make 24mm entry level L - Â£400 ? - 2013 ?)
1993 - 50mm non L (very old, wild card add USM, make entry level L - Â£400 ? - 2013 ? )
- of course the 85mm, 100mm, 135mm & 200mm primes are all getting on a tad and could do with a refresh, perhaps IS on the longer focal lengths ?

Back in reality land....
1998 - 35mm (extremely likely replacement - move to 77mm filter diameter ? - 2012 lens for sure)
2002 - 24-70mm (very likely replacement at the same focal length - IS 25% likely, waterproof perhaps ? - 2012 lens for sure)
2003 - 17-40mm (random idea - 15-40mm, fits with 8-15mm fisheye focal length - 2013/14)
2005 - 24-105mm (quite likely - upgrade to make waterproof ? - 2013/14)
2007 - 16-35mm (possible 14-24mm - 2012 lens probably)
2007 - 14mm (replacement not likely)
2008 - 24mm (replacement not likely)

Whilst not shorter length, the 45mm and 90mm tilt shift lens are also likely at some point in the next few years


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## chito (Oct 1, 2011)

I don't get why you would increase the filter size of the 35L to 77mm... All the shorter focal range primes are 72mm threads.. 

If you made a 135 f1.8 though.. now that would need a 77mm filter.. mmm

Even though I would love a 5DIII.. the truth is that it really doesn't have a competitor right now, things might change next year with sony being so aggressive, yet it makes sense for a 1Ds4 to be alone for most of the year.


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## Haydn1971 (Oct 1, 2011)

chito said:


> I don't get why you would increase the filter size of the 35L to 77mm... All the shorter focal range primes are 72mm threads..



The 24mm L is 77mm, as are most L zooms


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## chito (Oct 1, 2011)

Haydn1971 said:


> chito said:
> 
> 
> > I don't get why you would increase the filter size of the 35L to 77mm... All the shorter focal range primes are 72mm threads..
> ...



I stand corrected, I didn't even know this.. I guess it's to reduce vignetting.. I like my 35L at 72mm though..


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## KBX500 (Oct 1, 2011)

_"Two things were noted about 2012.
1.Itâ€™s the 25th anniversary of EOS
2.Itâ€™s an Olympic year as well as Euro 2012."_

25th Anniversary of EOS in 2012 ?

Why hasn't that been mentioned before ? 
How did so many people, including myself, miss that ?
That could be the missing clue to understanding the 
puzzle that is Canon's release schedule.

Being the world's largest camera manufacturer means
that they've mastered marketing, and how can Canon let
such an opportunity pass by. Naturally they're holding 
back product to make a big splash in the 25th year of EOS.

At the very least we'll see 1987 - 2012 and 25 Years 
mentioned in all their print and electronic advertising.
Are we going to see badges of such on camera bodies ? 
(I hope not)

So, it then makes sense that they'll wait until 2012 to 
announce their entry into the mirrorless sweepstakes.
The same goes for all their single digit camera models, 
and probably the XXD line, and because it's such a 
special year we'll see a long awaited, new lens, or two, 
and the expected updates of current lenses. And how
about a 580EX III. Canon's flashes are lagging behind 
Nikon's.

I can't imagine that Canon will let Christmas come and go 
without offering up another warmed over XXXD or XXXXD 
model, but that is the market that is more likely to go for 
a 25th Anniversary badged body, and perhaps pay extra for it. 
Maybe they'll wait on that, or go ahead and release it early.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 1, 2011)

Polansky said:


> No way this is ever going to happen.
> 
> Canon will NOT launch 3 pro grade camera's within a years time.
> They have never done so and they will never do.
> ...





I generally don't respond to stuff like this. Im fine with the critique. 

However I want to clarify a couple of things

1 I had the first mention of a 7d almost 6 months before announcement
2 I was the first to post the 5d2 would match the 1ds in resolution and was crucified
3 I had the 1d4 specced over a month before it was announced
4 the 60d was shown almost a month before launch. 

There are other examples. 

However, Canon hasn't really announced a lot of dslrs in the last 24 months. 

I also mentioned in a previous thread I thought we'd only see 3 new dslrs in 2012. 

Everyone wants to see new cameras, me included. 

Yes, I've been wrong lots, but I only post what has been told to me. Just be thankful I do t post it all!

Enjoy your weekend. 

Cheers


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## philHolland (Oct 1, 2011)

Thoughts from the abyss.

You'll see 3 DSLR full frame bodies by this time next year.
The 1 series will be consolidated into one system/body.
There will be one full frame camera within the next 3 months.
It may be jointly announced with the video cameras this Fall.
There will be another announced March-ish, unless they push it up.
They will be in two separate price points and will not really compete with each other.
They could potentially announce both at the same time.
There will also be two large sensor "camcorders" to top out their video line up very soon.
Like 30 days or so soon.
Expect new lenses focused on video in the coming months. Including f/1.8 or f/2 zooms at a high price point.

Lenses. Updated 24-70mm f/2.8L perhaps with IS coming. There was a 24-135mm f/4L IS that never saw the light of day several years ago, but I think this became the 24-105mm f/4L IS. Also a 100mm f/1.8L IS, but due to the macro lens popularity we may never see it. The longer super telephoto primes and zoom have been announced. The 20mm f/2.8 could be updated "any day" to a f/2, f/1.8, or a remarkable f/1.4. This hasn't been a high priority for them, but could cost in the $700-$1100 world if fast enough. Canon hasn't made an 18mm prime and that could happen at f/2.8 or more likely as f/3.5 like many others to fill out there line up. There is room in the price points to have something land cheaper than the 17mm f/4L T/S. Also to note, there isn't a 75mm prime as that length hasn't been very popular among shooters, but there is likely an f/2 or f/1.8 prototype floating around. The 35mm f/1.4L could get updated and I can see Canon going the f/1.2 route with that update.


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## Tarrum (Oct 1, 2011)

@Canon Rumors - don't stress yourself over such idiots, the site is good and if he wouldn't want to visit it he wouldn't even be on the forum.

Go bi*ch somewhere else please.

I think the 7D is very, very likely next year, so is the 5D Mark II. But indeed, 3 in a year would be a bit unusual, so that may leave the 1Ds Mark IV for this year, but almost definitely before the Olympics. When might the Rebels come out then, if early 2012 is 1Ds, middle is 5D, then 7D. It truly is a mistery, but these cameras are coming, that's the most important part ;D


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## Meh (Oct 1, 2011)

Tarrum said:


> @Canon Rumors - don't stress yourself over such idiots, the site is good and if he wouldn't want to visit it he wouldn't even be on the forum.
> 
> Go bi*ch somewhere else please.
> 
> I think the 7D is very, very likely next year, so is the 5D Mark II. But indeed, 3 in a year would be a bit unusual, so that may leave the 1Ds Mark IV for this year, but almost definitely before the Olympics. When might the Rebels come out then, if early 2012 is 1Ds, middle is 5D, then 7D. It truly is a mistery, but these cameras are coming, that's the most important part ;D



I second that whole-heartedly. No need to beat up on CR Guy for doing what the site is all about. Now if CR Guy doesn't do his job and posts crap but rates it CR3 then have at him 

While it might be unusual for Canon to release 3 bodies in 12 months, these are unusual times. 1Ds4 is long overdue, 5D3 is due, and within 12 months 7D2 will be on deck. Combine that with competitive pressure from Nikon and Sony and I don't think it would outlandish to think we might see all three bodies... 1D (merged), 5D3, and 7D2 all between now and Photokina!


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## UncleFester (Oct 1, 2011)

keithfullermusic said:


> Believe me, I want a 5Diii as much as anyone, but Canon is not going to release a new one until sales of the current one begin to slip below acceptable levels.



And that's not going to happen as long as there is nothing in it's price range that can match it's IQ.


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## EYEONE (Oct 1, 2011)

Hopefully "higher end shorter focal lengths" equals a 14-24mm f2.8L


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## UncleFester (Oct 1, 2011)

dilbert said:


> Is their next-gen sensor too hard to get right?



They really don't need to do a lot with the 5D to make it a killer dslr. But people are expecting a digic V when really a IV with a few more megapixels and faster autufocus may be the magic bullet.

But breaking that news to Joe Consumer....


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## Meh (Oct 2, 2011)

UncleFester said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Is their next-gen sensor too hard to get right?
> ...



Why would a Digic4 be preferable (a magic bullet) over a Digic5, am I misunderstanding your comment? Higher resolution and improved autofocus is almost a given, but then I can't understand the suggestion to keep Digic4.


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## Dave (Oct 2, 2011)

> Why would you release it ASAP?


Simply: Sony, Nikon & Co aren't just sitting around... Canon is far behind the current development. And many people are waiting. And people like me are considering switching to Sony Alpha 77. Despite the kit lense I have two lenses that I could sell without a cent loss. And I know some people in a similar position. I have a working 350D and I CAN wait. But I wait an eternity.




> Canon is not going to release a new one until sales of the current one begin to slip below acceptable levels.


And exactly THAT strategy is a big mistake. If the sales levels are falling it is to late.


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## gmrza (Oct 2, 2011)

Meh said:


> Why would a Digic4 be preferable (a magic bullet) over a Digic5, am I misunderstanding your comment? Higher resolution and improved autofocus is almost a given, but then I can't understand the suggestion to keep Digic4.



To add to the above:
Canon would not want to keep two processor architectures. In order to maintain economies of scale, they will need to move all of their production to Digic V.
While I am sure that each Digic generation is not just one chip - just the same way not all Core i5s are made equal, it makes no sense for Canon to keep Digic IV and Digiv V - it will be too costly. The higher end cameras will outstrip the capacity of dual Digic IVs so the need to move is there.

Canon will need to find as much commonality of components such as processors and sensors in order to compete and ensure that costs are kept under control. That is probably why the 7D, 60D, 550D and 600D share a sensor.
It will be very interesting to see if the 5DIII and 1DsIV share a sensor! - That would be a way for Canon to get up the volumes needed to control costs of the 1Ds line, which is a very low volume body.


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## UncleFester (Oct 2, 2011)

Meh said:


> UncleFester said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Not just a Digic IV, but a 5D that performs like we were expecting it to when it came out (mark II).


However, If Digic V only performs marginally better and w/o the 5D II's kinks worked out, there will be much pissing and moaning for the next ~3-4 years. Not something Canon wants associated with the V.

Maybe this is what Canon is trying to avoid. The 5D series is in the spotlight with the 1D series, imo. Or even more so.


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## keithfullermusic (Oct 2, 2011)

Don't get me wrong - I agree that they will lose customers the longer they wait. That is a given, and Canon has to know this. But the small amount of customers that they lose will be more than offset by milking the current 5D for much longer.

Also, what camera that Sony makes will compete with the current 5D? There might be one, but not to my knowledge. The current 5D is still an amazing camera and the only reason people want the iii is because people love new stuff, there really isn't a reason why they have to update it. It's IQ is incredible. When I am casually browsing Flickr I almost always recognize a picture taken with a 5D instantly, and that's because it looks incredible. 

I also think that when people are ready to purchase a camera like a 5D they have used other cameras for a long time. Most of those people are likely Canon users already with a pretty solid lens collection. I highly doubt that those people are willing to switch to a complete different brand and give up all their knowledge of Canons and their collection of lenses. There will undoubtedly be some, but not that many. 



Dave said:


> > Why would you release it ASAP?
> 
> 
> Simply: Sony, Nikon & Co aren't just sitting around... Canon is far behind the current development. And many people are waiting. And people like me are considering switching to Sony Alpha 77. Despite the kit lense I have two lenses that I could sell without a cent loss. And I know some people in a similar position. I have a working 350D and I CAN wait. But I wait an eternity.
> ...


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## gmrza (Oct 2, 2011)

UncleFester said:


> However, If Digic V only performs marginally better and w/o the 5D II's kinks worked out, there will be much pissing and moaning for the next ~3-4 years. Not something Canon wants associated with the V.
> 
> Maybe this is what Canon is trying to avoid. The 5D series is in the spotlight with the 1D series, imo. Or even more so.



I think you have put your finger on a critical point. In terms of profitability, the 5D series is more important than the 1Ds. The 1Ds is a very niche product, even more so than the 1D series.

Canon cannot afford to get the 5DmkIII wrong - that would see a loss of market share to Nikon and Sony.


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## Woody (Oct 2, 2011)

dilbert said:


> I'm starting to wonder what the true impact of that earthquake was on Canon/Nikon ...



All Canon DSLRs are currently made in Japan. High end Nikon DSLRs used to be made only in Japan; the rest came from Thailand. All Sony stuff are NOT made in Japan.

I believe Nikon is moving some of their manufacturing facilities to Malaysia. Their V1/J1 are made in Malaysia. Not sure if all future Nikon DSLRs will be made outside Japan.

Canon is building some plants in Taiwan and they'll only be ready in 2012. 

This is probably the main reason for delays in Nikon & Canon schedules.


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## Dave (Oct 2, 2011)

> Don't get me wrong - I agree that they will lose customers the longer they wait. That is a given, and Canon has to know this. But the small amount of customers that they lose will be more than offset by milking the current 5D for much longer.



You're right... I said what >I< would do. Imo Canon is far behind the current SLR development. Especially since we don't know what Nikon will come up with the next couple of months.



> there really isn't a reason why they have to update it


One word: Video!!!

The Alpha 77 is incredible concerning video (1080p 60p). And Canon could outpoint that, with a new full frame cam with some nice video features. 
And in my opinion the technology is THERE!! Take the current 7D give it a new FF sensor and new CPU, add the video features from the 600D (and may be a 60p HD mode), a GPS chip and put a 5D Mk III Label on it!
Eventually most of the people would be happy!

I think the most exciting thing will be the features of the 5D3 compared to the 7D2 (if it is true that they both will come at the photokina. The current 7D actually much better than the 5D2. So what will it look like in 12 months from now on? Will the 7D2 still be that much better? 

I'm really curious and I'm already waiting to get tickets for the photokina 2012 ;-)

regards, Dave


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## Woody (Oct 2, 2011)

Meh said:


> While it might be unusual for Canon to release 3 bodies in 12 months, these are unusual times.



2008: 1000D, 50D, 5D2
2009: 500D, 7D, 1D4

So, it's NOT unusual for Canon to release 3 bodies in 12 months. Not in the least. 

My bet: some mirrorless thing, 5D and 1D/1Ds merged


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## moreorless (Oct 2, 2011)

keithfullermusic said:


> Don't get me wrong - I agree that they will lose customers the longer they wait. That is a given, and Canon has to know this. But the small amount of customers that they lose will be more than offset by milking the current 5D for much longer.



It might not just be a question of milking profits, selling the 5D mk2 for Â£1500 and potentially even less in the future allows Canon to exploit the lower end of the FF market. Unless a new entry level FF body appears they'll likely lose the ability to sell for that market when the Mk3 launches at a much higher price. An extended period with a new 1Ds and no mk3 might have the opposite effect on the higher end of the market and lead to more users shifting up.

My feeling is that the 7D would actually be hurt more by the D400 or something similar being in direct competision since there would likely be less of a price gap than between the 5D mk2 and the D800.


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## rowanlamb (Oct 2, 2011)

Woody said:


> Meh said:
> 
> 
> > While it might be unusual for Canon to release 3 bodies in 12 months, these are unusual times.
> ...



And if you ignore calendar years, they've actually announced *4* DSLRs in a 12 month period - the 1000D, 50D, 5D2 and 500D were within 12 months of each other.


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## Haydn1971 (Oct 2, 2011)

Woody said:


> 2008: 1000D, 50D, 5D2
> 2009: 500D, 7D, 1D4



The 450D also came out in 2008... 2 high end "pro" bodies in one calendar year does appear to date, somewhat unusual, so 3 would be quite something, but having said that, there are 4 "pro" lines now and it was 2009 since Canon last dropped a new pro body onto the market.


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## gmrza (Oct 2, 2011)

Woody said:


> Meh said:
> 
> 
> > While it might be unusual for Canon to release 3 bodies in 12 months, these are unusual times.
> ...



There of course the quote from Masaya Maeda, head of Canon's camera division stating: "We will launch an interesting product next year" in the following article:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/05/us-canon-idUSTRE7640QX20110705?feedType=RSS&feedName=technologyNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FtechnologyNews+%28News+%2F+US+%2F+Technology%29

Whether or not a mirrorless camera is being referred to is another question.

I wonder also whether or not we can read anything into the fact that there was no Powershot G13 launched together with the S100.


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## Edwin Herdman (Oct 2, 2011)

dilbert said:


> just remember... every updated lens has come out more expensive than its predecessor, so add a $100 or more


$100 as the baseline to get a foot in the door? I wish I were as optimistic as you on that front.

Canon has released and refreshed a bunch of telephoto lenses lately; all that's left logically is the shorter end. The recent releases of a few great wide angles seem to indicate they've shaken off any reputation of being bad at short focal length lenses, but more good wide lenses that are also affordable would help the perception (not to mention help photographers).

Wide is more specific than "Canon is going to release new lenses shorter than the super telephotos," but you can nearly get there by a process of elimination...this might just be another joker wasting our time by emailing CR. I personally would be interested in medium telephoto lens refreshes the most (50mm, some slightly longer stuff) but the wide is also interesting too (I would like some autofocus wide lens; the 17mm TS-E isn't usable indoors in dim lighting for things that move).


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## Meh (Oct 2, 2011)

rowanlamb said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > Meh said:
> ...



My comment was referring to the original post that said it was unusual and to be fair to that post, I took it to mean 'enthusiast and above' bodies. So say, 7D and above. Below that, the bodies are on a fairly fixed annual update schedule I think. But perhaps I misunderstood what was meant by that.

To further explain my point "these are unusual times" my thinking is that 60D and above are all due or overdue to be updated now or within 12 months which may not have occurred in the past, anyone know for sure? So based on coincidence of timing and combined with pressure from Sony at the enthusiast level, Canon (and possibly Nikon also) will want to refresh everything. Maybe I just want that to be true so looking for reasons to believe it 

I don't believe they have any mandate to stick to a certain cycle. They will decide based on availability of new sensor technology (which is here now as we've seen with the latest Sony sensors), DigicV now in manufacturing, and market forces.

My prediction is that all 60D and above will be updated within 12 months along with something new such as another model in between or maybe medium format at the top end. Something is coming, I can feel it


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## gene_can_sing (Oct 2, 2011)

Canon is out to just milk it to death. It's kind of disgusting actually, especially when video people have been waiting for hell to freeze over for a camera to fix basic issues.

I remember several months ago, I mentioned a number of times that if people keep buying 5D2s, the 5D3 will never come out. Many people kept telling me that 5D2 sales has nothing to do with future product releases, and that they will release it when the tech is ready. 

NAIVE! Really Naive.

So yes, the moral of the story is if you want the 5D3 to come out, DON'T buy a 5D2. That's the only way you can get Canon to do anything. By not buying their products, and to be honest, they really don't deserve your money.


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## Ghostdive (Oct 2, 2011)

gene_can_sing said:


> Canon is out to just milk it to death. It's kind of disgusting actually, especially when video people have been waiting for hell to freeze over for a camera to fix basic issues.
> 
> I remember several months ago, I mentioned a number of times that if people keep buying 5D2s, the 5D3 will never come out. Many people kept telling me that 5D2 sales has nothing to do with future product releases, and that they will release it when the tech is ready.
> 
> ...



What sould i buy then? A sony? I need latest at end of february an new camera to replace my 400D for better lowlight(noise and AF) handling. Can do two things, buy an 5D2 or an 1DIV. At the moment i tend toward to the 5D2 for the FF-Sensor. So nothing buy is not an option.


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## gmrza (Oct 2, 2011)

dilbert said:


> You mean will the G series be replaced by mirrorless?
> 
> Interesting thought ... would those that buy the G series go for that?
> 
> Or is the G series waiting for other new technology that isn't yet complete or allowed by cost?



That is what I am wondering. The problem is that mirrorless spans a multitude of EVILs (excuse the pun). Depending on price, size, features and lenses, it could span anywhere from where the G series sits to where the Leica M9 sits. That may give a hint as to why runaway success is eluding the mirrorless segment at the moment.

I guess my biggest quibbles with my G11 are the sensor size (and associated DoF and noise issues), the shutter lag and f/2.8 not being bright enough at the short end. In reality I don't need an interchangeable lens system for my pocketable camera. If I want anything longer than about 150mm (35mm normalised) I may as well use a DSLR. That requirement set shows absolutely no need to a compact system camera!


That said, I think that in the longer term, the days of reflex mirrors are numbered. Within 5 years it would not surprise me if most "single lens cameras" have done away with the reflex mirror. The biggest stumbling block may still be a decent EVF.


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## moreorless (Oct 3, 2011)

gmrza said:


> That is what I am wondering. The problem is that mirrorless spans a multitude of EVILs (excuse the pun). Depending on price, size, features and lenses, it could span anywhere from where the G series sits to where the Leica M9 sits. That may give a hint as to why runaway success is eluding the mirrorless segment at the moment.
> 
> I guess my biggest quibbles with my G11 are the sensor size (and associated DoF and noise issues), the shutter lag and f/2.8 not being bright enough at the short end. In reality I don't need an interchangeable lens system for my pocketable camera. If I want anything longer than about 150mm (35mm normalised) I may as well use a DSLR. That requirement set shows absolutely no need to a compact system camera!
> 
> That said, I think that in the longer term, the days of reflex mirrors are numbered. Within 5 years it would not surprise me if most "single lens cameras" have done away with the reflex mirror. The biggest stumbling block may still be a decent EVF.



Thats always been my feeling, espeically now the Nikon's smaller mirrorless doesnt seem to save much space.

I wouldnt be supprized if the delay to the G13 is a response to the X10, manifactures should really have been pushing up sensor size for manual high end compacts well before now so hopefully that camera kicks off a shift in that direction? The X10's lens size doesnt seem to have become that large even with the large appature thoughout the range so I can see potential for Canon to push things even further with sensor size.

If Canon creates an interchangeble lens mirrorless then I think there better off aiming above not below m43. To me the most obvious gap in the market right now seems to be between the X100 and NEX, crop size sensor, a couple of bodies(one larger prenium with a hybrid OVF/EVF and one budget without) and a range of small primes that balance well with those bodies.


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## Rocky (Oct 5, 2011)

gmrza said:


> That said, I think that in the longer term, the days of reflex mirrors are numbered. Within 5 years it would not surprise me if most "single lens cameras" have done away with the reflex mirror. The biggest stumbling block may still be a decent EVF.


The biggest stumbling bock should be a good fast AF. We may say that The New Nikon mirrorless has both contrast detector and phrase detector built into the sensor(??). But Nikon may be holding the patent right on it. So it will be off limit to other manufacturer. If we are using mirrorless, we can just use the LCD screen at teh back of the camera as view finder. All point and shoot user are doing it. we do not need EVF and use the mirrorless like a DSLR.
On the other hand, Canon can build a copy of the M9 with Leica M mount and made a new line of lenses. Canon is fully capable of doing it. Canon has been making Leica copies for decaded until the 60's. The patent right of M mount has expired afew years back.


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## moreorless (Oct 5, 2011)

Rocky said:


> gmrza said:
> 
> 
> > That said, I think that in the longer term, the days of reflex mirrors are numbered. Within 5 years it would not surprise me if most "single lens cameras" have done away with the reflex mirror. The biggest stumbling block may still be a decent EVF.
> ...



The biggest drawback will IMHO be using an EVF, the current generation are still IMHO pretty poor looking and I have my doubts they'll ever look great given the size limations.

The NEX seems to show that mirrorless ultimately does not have THAT big an impact on lens size and most serious photogra0hers are not going to want a grossly unbalanced body,. If the body is held back my having to balance the lens(and include the current amount of manual controls) and the lens arent that much smaller then is a much smaller reduction in size worth giving up the OVF for?

My feeling is that we'll probabley see the high end market spilt between DSLR's with the current wide range of zooms and large sensor ultra compact mirrorless that use mostly primes.


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## kubelik (Oct 5, 2011)

moreorless said:


> gmrza said:
> 
> 
> > That is what I am wondering. The problem is that mirrorless spans a multitude of EVILs (excuse the pun). Depending on price, size, features and lenses, it could span anywhere from where the G series sits to where the Leica M9 sits. That may give a hint as to why runaway success is eluding the mirrorless segment at the moment.
> ...



I don't necessarily think the G-series needs to move into the interchangeable lens arena in order to compete. my ideal G13 would be the followings:

sensor size between 2/3" and 4/3" sensors ... 1" sensor? similar to Nikon's 1/CX sensor
integrated lens, 24-70mm equivalent, f/2 fixed
good FPS (5+)
HD video options
EVF
smaller than Nikon 1/CX

if this sold for G-series prices (~$500), would you buy it? I'd definitely buy it instead of the Nikon 1/CX cams.

I feel like camera companies miss the point when they make interchangeable lens systems on very small sensors. people don't want interchangeable lenses just to have interchangeable lenses. they want them so that they can shoot differently. what's the point of a wide fast prime if your sensor offers you no DOF control? what's the point of a supertelephoto if your AF tracking and body handling characteristics suck?

I feel like people buying cameras in this mid-range segment want a do-it-all upgrade from their do-it-all P&S, or they want a backup camera from their existing DSLR system. the G-series does that just fine, and would do it even better with a slightly larger sensor and a wide-angle wide-aperture built-in zoom lens.


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## moreorless (Oct 6, 2011)

kubelik said:


> I don't necessarily think the G-series needs to move into the interchangeable lens arena in order to compete. my ideal G13 would be the followings:
> 
> sensor size between 2/3" and 4/3" sensors ... 1" sensor? similar to Nikon's 1/CX sensor
> integrated lens, 24-70mm equivalent, f/2 fixed
> ...



That was exactly my point, I don't think the avarge buyer of a camera with a sensor between m43 and high end compacts really wants to go the interchangeble lens route if a good general purpose lens can be built in.

Whats more looking at the X10 and these new Nikons it seems to me thats the better use of space. I know the Nikons have a sensor twice as large but its zoom lens with a shorter range and a much poorer appature is alot larger than the X10's folded down. Not having to build in external tech and being able to partly fold into the body just seem like better options to me.


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