# A Breakdown of Rumors



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 8, 2011)

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<strong>Opinion

</strong>Below is an update of the current state of rumors surrounding camera bodies. Most of whatâ€™s below is opinion, or clarification of whatâ€™s going on.</p>
<p><strong>1Ds Mark IV

</strong>I was told a <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2010/09/canon-nikon-flagships-in-2011/">long time ago</a> that a 1Ds Mark IV (or similar) camera would not arrive until late 2011 or early 2012 and would be 40+ megapixels. It would be a â€œbig departureâ€ from the current 1Ds line.</p>
<p>Thereâ€™s been no information on the line that Iâ€™d call factual yet, the information I have been told seems to lead to a new type of camera on top of the Canon lineup.</p>
<p><strong>1D Mark V

</strong>Weâ€™ve heard a lot about the amalgamation of the 1D/1Ds line over the years. Itâ€™s been a lot stronger in the last 6 months. It was over 6 months ago that <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2010/12/the-canon-high-end-cr2/">I was first told </a>a new 1D would arrive before any 1Ds replacement.</p>
<p>I personally think most spec lists recently have been wish lists more than fact, however I post them anyway just in case. I suspect weâ€™ll have better information in the coming week or so.</p>
<p>All signs point to this camera, more than any other.</p>
<p><strong>5D Mark III

</strong>Everything I get now says itâ€™s a 2012 camera. Most likely in the February timeframe.</p>
<p>Thereâ€™s a lot of rumblings about the line splitting into 2 models, nothing concrete though. If this camera was coming this month, I believe weâ€™d hear a lot more about it.</p>
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## EYEONE (Aug 8, 2011)

dilbert said:


> How could you forget to mention the 7D Mark2 in your summary?!?!?!



Because there are no real rumors about a 7D2


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## dswatson83 (Aug 8, 2011)

I guess 2011 will not be a big year for canon. I think they have begun to slack off a little. Their last even somewhat decent camera, the 60D (which I own) is a little bit of a letdown on focusing, build, high ISO results, video focusing, and the fact that it only has a single SD slot. Nikon & Sony are making steady progress so Canon needs to get the ball rolling. The 7D is great but it will struggle to hold its own with a new D700, D400 or even the vastly cheaper D7000 and new sony model A77, of which most should be available this year. Not much of a problem if the 7D will be replaced this year but if you are waiting more than 12-18 months, that could be a real downer. 

Also, the 5D with its weak focusing can be easily trounced by the A77 or upcoming D700. Megapixels don't matter if the picture isn't that sharp.

I expect the replacement for the Nikon D3s to be the greatest camera available given how almost perfect the D3s has been in so many ways. If they can up that even a little with a higher MP sensor, good luck to everyone else. 

It took some time but everyone is catching up to Canon on video as well. Unless Canon has some unexpected super advanced tech that no one else can match on that DIGIC5, they really need to be announcing new cameras in 2011.


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## bornshooter (Aug 8, 2011)

dswatson83 said:


> I guess 2011 will not be a big year for canon. I think they have begun to slack off a little. Their last even somewhat decent camera, the 60D (which I own) is a little bit of a letdown on focusing, build, high ISO results, video focusing, and the fact that it only has a single SD slot. Nikon & Sony are making steady progress so Canon needs to get the ball rolling. The 7D is great but it will struggle to hold its own with a new D700, D400 or even the vastly cheaper D7000 and new sony model A77, of which most should be available this year. Not much of a problem if the 7D will be replaced this year but if you are waiting more than 12-18 months, that could be a real downer.
> 
> Also, the 5D with its weak focusing can be easily trounced by the A77 or upcoming D700. Megapixels don't matter if the picture isn't that sharp.
> 
> ...


relax i think canon is watching how the markets playing out then there gonna release some beasts after nikon have released theres don't be to harsh on them yet my friend


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## dstppy (Aug 8, 2011)

EYEONE said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > How could you forget to mention the 7D Mark2 in your summary?!?!?!
> ...


Exactly. What is the 7D missing? Flip screen? No sense holding your breath on this one. Until Digic V materializes, the 7D seems fine where it is.


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## dswatson83 (Aug 8, 2011)

dstppy said:


> Exactly. What is the 7D missing? Flip screen? No sense holding your breath on this one. Until Digic V materializes, the 7D seems fine where it is.



I agree with you...but the 7D is overpriced. It really is not much better than the Nikon D7000 and even falls short in some respects and should be around $1200-1400 for the body tops. Then Canon could afford to keep this camera relevant much longer. The fact that it is so much more expensive to the Nikon D7000 and will be close in price to the Sony A77 or future Nikon D400 or D700 will hurt it more than anything. The camera itself is still solid and though i'd like to see dual memory card slots and better video focusing, most people can live without those features.


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## bycostello (Aug 8, 2011)

nothing about a 4/3rds camera.... i'd much prefer to buy canon cos of the compatability with flash etc...


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 8, 2011)

bycostello said:


> nothing about a 4/3rds camera.... i'd much prefer to buy canon cos of the compatability with flash etc...



Canon is likely coming out with a small sensor camera, we have seen a patent along those lines, and the Nikon small format camera has already been leaked. They absolutely will NOT make a 4/3 camera.


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## EYEONE (Aug 8, 2011)

dilbert said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > EYEONE said:
> ...



You say "24mp" like it's a good thing.


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## traveller (Aug 8, 2011)

There seem to be a lot of conflicting rumours with regard to the resolution of the new 1Ds seriesâ€™ sensor. Iâ€™m sure that there are people here that will be better informed, but my guess would be that any new full frame cameraâ€™s sensor would be based on an existing wafer. 

Which pixel pitch will they use? 

[Based on the table by Keith Cooper: 
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_1DS_MkIV.html]


APS-C Camera Year 35mm FF Camera Year
~3MP D30 2000 - 2002 ~11MP 1Ds 2002 - 2004
~6MP D60/10D 2002 - 2004 ~16MP 1Ds mk2 2004 - 2007
~8MP 20/30D 2004 - 2007 ~21MP 1Ds mk3 2007 - present
~10MP 40D 2007 - 2008 ~26MP ? ?
~12MP 450D/1100D 2008 - present ~31MP ? ?
~15MP 50D 2008 ~39MP ? ?
~18MP 7D/60D/550D/600D 2009 - present ~46MP ? ?
~21MP ? ? ~54MP ? ?

(How the 12.7MP 5D fits into this, Iâ€™m not sureâ€¦) 

The pattern for the first three generations seems to have been that when the APS-C sensor was superseded, the pixel pitch equivalent full frame sensor appeared. This has now broken down: there was no 26MP / 31MP full-frame camera. My question is, if Canon wanted to produce a 1Ds MkIV with one of these resolutions, why wouldnâ€™t they have done so in quarter 3 2010, when everyone expected them to? A quick calculation of what Digic 4 is capable of: 

5D MkII - 21MP x 3.9fps = 81.9 
31MP x 5fps = 155

Dual Digic 4s should have had enough processing power for a 31MP 1Ds MkIV at 5fps. So why wait a year? A 1Ds MkIV with this sensor, the 1D MkIVâ€™s AF system and HD Video would surely have been enough of an upgrade for anyone contemplating it. Did Canon thought that the economy was too weak to sell enough of them? Were they worried that Nikonâ€™s new D4 would outshine it this year? 

Thereâ€™s a suggestion at Northlight that a 40+MP 1Ds MkIV prototype was tested, but has been rejected because of poorer than hoped for high ISO performance. Referring back to the table shows that a FF equivalent to the 18MP APS-C sensor would have ~46MP. This raises the question of what Canon were looking for in this regard in a â€˜studioâ€™ camera compared to the 7D et al. Is read noise higher from a full frame sensor? 

Maybe Canon is looking to produce a single 1D series body that merges the product lines, but as Keith Cooper states: which price point do they market it at, the 1Dâ€™s or the 1Dsâ€™? Perhaps Canon fear that the Pentax 645D makes the 1Dsâ€™ traditional price point untenable? Assuming that this is not the case, what impact will the 5D MkIII have upon all of this? Will Canon carry on with putting the same sensor in it as in the 1Ds, or will they revert to a lower resolution sensor as in the original 5D? If they do the former, expect the 5D MkIII to look very much like the 5D MkII in terms of its other specifications to maintain the differential between the two lines. If they put a different sensor in the 5D MkIII, then it would help them to beef up the other aspects of its performance to head off the expected D800. 

Will we see a 1Ds MkIV based on the 50D pixel pitch at ~39MP and a 5D MkIII based on the 40D (1D MkIV?)/ 450D pixel pitch at ~26 - 31MP? 

Apologies for the length, Iâ€™ve been saving it up for a while -havenâ€™t posted in ages!


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## dstppy (Aug 8, 2011)

dilbert said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > EYEONE said:
> ...



Obviously everyone sells their EF/EF-S lenses/bodies and goes out and learns a new system ;D

Sony, seriously? Don't they make radios or something?


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## Edwin Herdman (Aug 8, 2011)

Sony is "just" the biggest maker of sensors for digital cameras. I think Canon's next biggest, and the size of the players falls off dramatically from there.

They make good headphones too (a bit expensive even by top of the line SLR standards though). Best of all you don't need to input your CC info to plug them into your stereo system, either.

The rumor going around is that the A77 will shoot 12FPS - we'll see...


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## kubelik (Aug 8, 2011)

dswatson83 said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly. What is the 7D missing? Flip screen? No sense holding your breath on this one. Until Digic V materializes, the 7D seems fine where it is.
> ...



since when did real cameras on the market need to have their pricing dictated by rumored equipment?


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 9, 2011)

Edwin Herdman said:


> The rumor going around is that the A77 will shoot 12FPS - we'll see...



I heard 20 fps, and a built-in coffee maker. But that may not have been the most reliable of rumors...


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## dswatson83 (Aug 9, 2011)

kubelik said:


> since when did real cameras on the market need to have their pricing dictated by rumored equipment?



Well, rumored because it isn't out yet but Sony has been very public with info including spec lists and a launch date for the end of this month so its not quite rumor. I'm just saying that the 7D is a great camera and will still be a great buy if Canon prices it right. There isn't a ton to upgrade on it until the Digic V is out so I understand that canon has probably delayed a new model till 2012. It has only come down about $200 I think in the several years it has been out so I'm sure Canon has room. If they don't lower the price, it just looks like there may be some other superior camera options from the competition for around the same price for about a year.


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## -zero- (Aug 9, 2011)

dswatson83 said:


> There isn't a ton to upgrade on it until the Digic V is out so I understand that canon has probably delayed a new model till 2012. It has only come down about $200 I think in the several years it has been out so I'm sure Canon has room. If they don't lower the price, it just looks like there may be some other superior camera options from the competition for around the same price for about a year.



First, we still don't know if the 7D is on a 2 or 3 year cycle so I wouldn't talk about any delays just yet
second, the 7D is still the top aps-c camera out there and I think is priced correctly, the price will go down eventually but I think it's going to be when the 7D mkII comes out and not when nikon or sony release new cameras (I could be wrong though)


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 9, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> Edwin Herdman said:
> 
> 
> > The rumor going around is that the A77 will shoot 12FPS - we'll see...
> ...



This is a Canadian web site, so that would be a kettle - eh


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## Canon 14-24 (Aug 9, 2011)

Strategically what they probably will do?

Probably release for a 5d3 next year Q1 2012. Why because then they can release their new line up that will be in line with a new Adobe CS6 suite to just open a raw file! So on top of a potential new $3k-ish camera body you gotta now buy a new 300-600 photoshop to open the raws!


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## UncleFester (Aug 9, 2011)

Edwin Herdman said:


> The rumor going around is that the A77 will shoot 12FPS - we'll see...



That's a lot of fps, and I often wonder what practical application even 10 fps have. Besides the obvious like a good autosports accident, boxing and UFC have got to be the best sports where a 10-12 frame shines.


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## pedro (Aug 9, 2011)

Canon 14-24 said:


> Strategically what they probably will do?
> 
> Probably release for a 5d3 next year Q1 2012. Why because then they can release their new line up that will be in line with a new Adobe CS6 suite to just open a raw file! So on top of a potential new $3k-ish camera body you gotta now buy a new 300-600 photoshop to open the raws!



you don't even need a new photoshop. DPP is way enough. if not, there is lightroom. add these bucks to your glass budget...regards.


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## bycostello (Aug 9, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> bycostello said:
> 
> 
> > nothing about a 4/3rds camera.... i'd much prefer to buy canon cos of the compatability with flash etc...
> ...



 looking like an Olympus pen then....


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## Lawliet (Aug 9, 2011)

dilbert said:


> And when the Sony A77 debuts with 24MP on APS-C, for a price well under the 7D?



The A77 as such is an interesting proposition; moreso with a 35mm counterpart.
BUT a while ago I took the A900 for a spin. Nice body, but the 24-70/2,8 and 70-200/2,8 way to often made the OOF areas require massive post processing. The Sigma versions also have their weaknesses, leaving C&N as the only viable options, independent on what happens in terms of bodies.


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## kubelik (Aug 9, 2011)

bycostello said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > bycostello said:
> ...



I hope when canon comes out with a small-form-factor interchangeable lens camera that they go with APS-C instead of m4/3. sony has irrefutably proven that you can get a lot of sensor into a tiny package. better yet, Leica has shown how to do it with a FF sensor. if in 2013 canon threw the 5D II sensor into a rangefinder body ... pretty sure I'd ditch my G series cam and buy it instead.

and yeah, I do think it will be 2013 before we see any small-form-factor body release from Canon, at the earliest


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## Edwin Herdman (Aug 9, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> Edwin Herdman said:
> 
> 
> > The rumor going around is that the A77 will shoot 12FPS - we'll see...
> ...


The Sony Alpha Rumors site, with a big "picture cannot be found" image from some online imagehost, marked it an SR4, whatever that means. I actually read it somewhere else (which seemed a bit more upscale).

If the A77 follows the price progression of the A33 and the A55, it'll be somewhere around $1000, maybe over that mark by a good deal. With a 24mpix sensor, you'll definitely need a good memory card to get quick transfer rates. I personally have trouble seeing 12fps even on a $1500 body, even if it will be a couple years newer in design than the 7D.


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## EYEONE (Aug 9, 2011)

kubelik said:


> bycostello said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...



That's true. Sony packs quite a punch with the NEX sensor in a small body. But the problem is that it's too pricey for that market in my opinion. I'd love a small interchangable camera for travelling but the NEX and many of the others are just too expensive. EVIL will never replace DSLRs for me but I'd love to have one at a lower price point.

The Sony NEX5 at $650 is absurd.


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## kubelik (Aug 10, 2011)

EYEONE said:


> kubelik said:
> 
> 
> > bycostello said:
> ...



I thought the majority of m4/3 cameras sell for at least as much as the NEX5? aren't some of the Olympus m4/3 cameras around $800 or even $900? I'd much rather get a compact APS-C for $650 rather than a m4/3 for $900 ...


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## WarStreet (Aug 10, 2011)

EYEONE said:


> That's true. Sony packs quite a punch with the NEX sensor in a small body. But the problem is that it's too pricey for that market in my opinion. I'd love a small interchangable camera for travelling but the NEX and many of the others are just too expensive. EVIL will never replace DSLRs for me but I'd love to have one at a lower price point.
> 
> The Sony NEX5 at $650 is absurd.



Personally, I don't find it interesting to have a small body with big lenses.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 10, 2011)

WarStreet said:


> Personally, I don't find it interesting to have a small body with big lenses.


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## xROELOFx (Aug 10, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> WarStreet said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I don't find it interesting to have a small body with big lenses.



it really does not look comfortable  i would also prefer a 'normal' camera body


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## Quackator (Aug 10, 2011)

The German price list was explained by Martin Achatzi, cps dealer. 
He said that Canon is changing their distribution scheme and pro equipment
will from now on be available through pro dealers exclusively.

The 1D/Ds series is no longer a consumer product anymore.
Visit the professional department and there it is.


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## iaind (Aug 13, 2011)

Quackator said:


> The German price list was explained by Martin Achatzi, cps dealer.
> He said that Canon is changing their distribution scheme and pro equipment
> will from now on be available through pro dealers exclusively.
> 
> ...



Canon Professional Range brochure lists 5DII,1DIV and 1DsIII and uses 7D listing in Step-up Chart.
Is 5D now an Offical Pro body


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 13, 2011)

"Used by pros" and "pro camera" are not the same, and Canon recognizes that. For example, xxD (even 20D) and xD bodies can be used to qualify for membership in Canon Professional Services. The difference is you need two xxD or xD bodies, but only one 1-series.


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## RESEARCH_UK (Aug 15, 2011)

If it is indeed true that the 40+mp sensor was rejected for noise, would it not make sense for Canon to consider extrapolation of a tried and tested density? If you consider that at 4896x3264 on a 519 square millimetre chip the 1D Mk4 has a density of 30794 per square millimetre, which is significantly higher than the 24336 on the 5D2 and 1Ds Mk3. Then there is an opportunity to use this wafer at 36 x 24 to provide a 26.6mp FF sensor. As this would have 1.66 x the pixels of the 1D Mk4, then the existing dual Digic IV providing 10FPS could even using current algorithm manage to process 6 FPS.

A 26.6 mp 1Ds Mk4 with around 6318 x 4212 and 6fps might not satisfy the mega-pixel hungry wishing to beat Nikon into submission, but it would provide a sensible step up using a combination of available technology without having to push the price point through the roof. It would also leave the 'blue sky' development bods to work on the 46mp for the 1Ds Mk5 etc. I might be way off, but with 30 years of running R&D it would certainly be a step I would consider.


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## Ivar (Aug 15, 2011)

To me it looks like you are describing the upcoming 1D Mk5. Add the DIGIC V and you get the necessary fps too (maybe not 10fps on full res but pretty close to that). 

The 1D is also the most believable candidate to be announced next by Canon - just because of Nikon D4. 

Not too long to wait to confirm this.



RESEARCH_UK said:


> If it is indeed true that the 40+mp sensor was rejected for noise, would it not make sense for Canon to consider extrapolation of a tried and tested density? If you consider that at 4896x3264 on a 519 square millimetre chip the 1D Mk4 has a density of 30794 per square millimetre, which is significantly higher than the 24336 on the 5D2 and 1Ds Mk3. Then there is an opportunity to use this wafer at 36 x 24 to provide a 26.6mp FF sensor. As this would have 1.66 x the pixels of the 1D Mk4, then the existing dual Digic IV providing 10FPS could even using current algorithm manage to process 6 FPS.
> 
> A 26.6 mp 1Ds Mk4 with around 6318 x 4212 and 6fps might not satisfy the mega-pixel hungry wishing to beat Nikon into submission, but it would provide a sensible step up using a combination of available technology without having to push the price point through the roof. It would also leave the 'blue sky' development bods to work on the 46mp for the 1Ds Mk5 etc. I might be way off, but with 30 years of running R&D it would certainly be a step I would consider.


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## RESEARCH_UK (Aug 15, 2011)

Ivar said:


> To me it looks like you are describing the upcoming 1D Mk5. Add the DIGIC V and you get the necessary fps too (maybe not 10fps on full res but pretty close to that).
> 
> The 1D is also the most believable candidate to be announced next by Canon - just because of Nikon D4.
> 
> Not too long to wait to confirm this.



To be honest Ivar I was consider it as more of a '1Ds Mark 3.5' Stop gap as it perhaps does not live up to everything people are anticipating. But with the delays that have occurred with lens release and the earthquake, etc. You could see how it would give breathing space and still keep a breast of perhaps a D4 with a crop option. 

It could be a possible route for a FF 26.6mp which could effectively have a 16.1mp APS-H if crop selection is to be instigated. Even without Digic V, Dual Digic IV as per 1D Mk IV could handle the 10 fps on the 1.3 crop and 6 fps on the FF. I suspect it would not satisfy those considering/wanting a combined FF/1.3/1.6 as it would only give 10.2 mp on the 1.6. But then again look how much some Nikonians think their 12mp to 5mp crop is great. Though of course typical Canon users realise they could do this in DPP/any edit suite anyway. 

So perhaps 26.6/16.1/10.2mp isn't so bad and in theory on the 1.6 crop it could process 15.6 fps @ 10.2mp, though not sure what I would want 15.6fps for!


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## Bob Howland (Aug 15, 2011)

RESEARCH_UK said:


> So perhaps 26.6/16.1/10.2mp isn't so bad and in theory on the 1.6 crop it could process 15.6 fps @ 10.2mp, though not sure what I would want 15.6fps for!



People who shoot sports or dance can think of good uses for 15.6 FPS. The big issue is moving the mirror that fast, assuming that there is a mirror that moves. The fastest FF Canon that I know of was the 1DV film camera, that did 10FPS. There is also an issue that current DSLR focusing systems are inactive while the mirror is up, the "blackout time".

I have to agree with Ivar. A 1D5 with a scaled-up and improved 1D4 sensor and a couple DIGIC V image processors makes a lot of sense. It would simultaneously (1) replace the 1D4, (2) replace the 1Ds3 and (3) merge the 1D and 1Ds series. Canon could also introduce a less expensive but still robust 16-20MP camera for wedding photographers using 5D2's and Nikon D700's (and those of us wanting to take pictures of black cats in coal bins.) If Canon ever gets the 40+MP sensor working correctly, they might use it in that same cheaper body to create a landscape/studio camera. The 5D2's killing of 1Ds3 sales strongly suggests that the days of $8000 landscape/studio cameras are passed.

Where does video fit into all this? I'm not sure except to note that 1920 X 1080 is still only a 2MP image.


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## motorhead (Aug 15, 2011)

Whatever else Canon offer us in the next 12 months, the next 1D must be on its way. The 2012 Olympics with the millions of photo-journo's desperate to placate news and image hungry editors means that the 1D is bound to arrive shortly. The pro togs need time to adjust to a new body.


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## RESEARCH_UK (Aug 15, 2011)

Bob Howland said:


> RESEARCH_UK said:
> 
> 
> > So perhaps 26.6/16.1/10.2mp isn't so bad and in theory on the 1.6 crop it could process 15.6 fps @ 10.2mp, though not sure what I would want 15.6fps for!
> ...



Hi Bob, yes that was my original premis, a 1Ds IV with 26.6mp that within it incorporates the strengths of the 1D4. Don't really care whether they call it a 1DV or a 1DsIV. But if 'only' 10 fps is required at the crop resolution then there are no "technological uncertainties" to use a phrase from my industry. That would be no bad thing for Canon or us and let them concentrate on getting the latest L glass right.


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