# Canon EOS 7D Mark II Spec List [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Feb 19, 2013)

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<strong>First spec list in a long time


</strong>We received our first spec list for a Canon EOS 7D Mark II (we’re calling it that for now) from a known source in a while this weekend. Most people are now saying that this camera is probably being announced at the end of summer, with availability almost right away like the EOS 5D Mark III.</p>
<p>It was also mentioned that their could be as many as 3 prototype configurations of the camera out there, and this one of them.</p>
<p><b>Specifications</b></p>
<ul>
<li>24.1mp APS-C Sensor</li>
<li>Dual DIGIC V</li>
<li>10fps</li>
<li>Dual Memory Card Slots (Unknown configuration)</li>
<li>61 AF Points (I wonder if we’ll get red focus points in AIS?)</li>
<li>3.2″ LCD</li>
<li>Build quality like 5D3</li>
<li>GPS & Wifi</li>
<li>$2199 ($500 more than the 7D at launch, I’d like to see such a camera come in under $2000)</li>
<li>ISO Performance to get close to the 5D3</li>
<li>“Lots of video features”</li>
</ul>
<p>As we’ve been told before, this camera will basically be a mini EOS-1D X, and with that, comes a price increase. It was also stressed that about the only spec that may change is the sensor, as they have a few APS-C sensors available. I wonder about the megapixel count, though if Canon gets back to making industry leading sensors, I have no doubt 24mp could be a real winner.</p>
<p><em><strong><a href="http://www.kqzyfj.com/click-3958327-10618832?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.buydig.com%2Fshop%2Fproduct.aspx%3Fsku%3DCNEOS7D%26omid%3D200%26ref%3Dcj&cjsku=CNEOS7D" target="_blank">Canon EOS 7D $1199 at BuyDig.com</a></strong></em></p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## carlosmeldano (Feb 19, 2013)

http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/01/canon-dslr-body-rumors-for-2013/

it correlates to the specification above. so, it seems 70D is going to have the same sensor.


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## jimjamesjimmy (Feb 19, 2013)

it looks like what the 6d should have been but with a ff sensor. so annoying.

will this be better than the 6d?


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## vlim (Feb 19, 2013)

so one day there'll be no more aps-c body (so no 7D mark II) in right now it might come by the end of the year... Welcome in the rumors 'world 8)


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## FunPhotons (Feb 19, 2013)

If true, is it me or is the Canon camera lineup getting confused? Used to be that upgrades were real upgrades, and you'd upgrade to get better features for a similar price as you originally paid. Now you're getting more, but paying more, and the difference between the bodies is getting smaller. 

This is why I still have my 5DII at least, I don't see a camera yet that offers a compelling upgrade.


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## lastcoyote (Feb 19, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> it looks like what the 6d should have been but with a ff sensor. so annoying.
> 
> will this be better than the 6d?



No that's the wrong way of looking at it.
The 6D is pitched as an 'entry level' or first time FF body.
The 7D line is the 'high end' Crop body.


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## SJ (Feb 19, 2013)

wow, sound good 8), ready for sale my 7D


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## jimjamesjimmy (Feb 19, 2013)

lastcoyote said:


> jimjamesjimmy said:
> 
> 
> > it looks like what the 6d should have been but with a ff sensor. so annoying.
> ...




i had a FF body when i was 10, twenty years ago. it was a film camera.


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## spinworkxroy (Feb 19, 2013)

The spec list make the 5D3 look "inferior"…other than the sensor…
And this makes the 6D look pointless..
Isn't the smaller the number the higher end the camera?
These are features that should've been in their flagship FF cameras from day 1.


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## Secretariat (Feb 19, 2013)

A great compliment for the 1DX,especially if you need the reach.


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## Woody (Feb 19, 2013)

FunPhotons said:


> If true, is it me or is the Canon camera lineup getting confused? Used to be that upgrades were real upgrades, and you'd upgrade to get better features for a similar price as you originally paid. Now you're getting more, but paying more, and the difference between the bodies is getting smaller.



Not quite.

Have a look at Thom Hogan's article entitled 'The Last Camera Syndrome'. We are getting there, if not there already.


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## dkyeah (Feb 19, 2013)

With the GPS & WiFi being integrated, I'm wondering if it'll have a pop-up flash or not.

I'm sure that the day they put the same specs on a full frame camera that is not part of the 1D serie many Canon photographers will buy it!
IMO the specs of the 6D should have looked more like the 5DIII and the 5DIII's should have looked more like these 7DII rumored specs.


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## Apop (Feb 19, 2013)

gps and wifi can be dropped, who needs that on a wildlife camera? (ok gps might be handy..., but i wanna choose)

Other then that the specs look what i hoped for..., if this is true i am very likely to use this on a long lens and the 1dmkiv on a 70-200'ish

Now just hope it gets announced soon and that the specs will be like that!


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## noncho (Feb 19, 2013)

As 60D user I'll wait for ... 80D with this sensor(if it is good enough)


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## facedodge (Feb 19, 2013)

The only complaint I ever heard from a 7D user was about their sensor. Now they get near 5D3 ISO ability. That is great! They also get a 25% bump in FPS, wifi, gps, upgraded AF system and a few other goodies like video features.

And who are these people complaining that this should have been the 5D3 or 6D? 10 FPS on a FF body is called the 1Dx.

I'm not even sure why I bother with the forum on this site.


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## eddiemrg (Feb 19, 2013)

In some ways the new MK II will be an improoved DSLR in video (with some more FPS..)
Just save cash and get 7D MK I. (IMHO!)

Any featured lenses? some kind of 17-55 F2.8 MK II?


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## FunPhotons (Feb 19, 2013)

Woody said:


> FunPhotons said:
> 
> 
> > If true, is it me or is the Canon camera lineup getting confused? Used to be that upgrades were real upgrades, and you'd upgrade to get better features for a similar price as you originally paid. Now you're getting more, but paying more, and the difference between the bodies is getting smaller.
> ...



I'm talking about me personally - I'd love to upgrade, I like to get the latest features and have the money to do it, but Canon just isn't giving me a reason to do it. A high megapixel body would do it though. 

On "The Last Camera" yes DSLR's are past the point where you need to continually upgrade I believe. The 5DIII has great metering, great autofocus, great IQ etc. Even the 5DII with it's poor autofocus system is good enough to last me another five years easy. This is why I think Canon needs some big features like new sensor tech to lure us back. 

A while back a Canon rep said "users need better pixels, not more pixels". Seems like Nikon is taking them up on that one. And besides they didn't really give us better pixels.


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## lastcoyote (Feb 19, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> lastcoyote said:
> 
> 
> > jimjamesjimmy said:
> ...



sorry, what point are you making?
the point i'm making is that two of Canon's 'ranges' are Crop bodies and Full Frame bodies and that both ranges have entry level bodies through to high end/top of the range bodies.


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## Viggo (Feb 19, 2013)

"What the 6d should have been" are we
Somehow missing the fact that the 6d is full frame and the better FF is called 5d3 and the better 5d3 is called 1d X.

The 7d mk2 is a fast camera with advanced AF, sits
Between the 5d3 and the 1dx like the original 7d did between the mk4 and the 5d2. 

I would live to see a aps-c with the 61 o
Pt AF, pretty much covering the whole VF, lol.


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## EchoLocation (Feb 19, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> it looks like what the 6d should have been but with a ff sensor. so annoying.
> 
> will this be better than the 6d?


If this camera was a full frame, wouldn't it basically be a 5DIII(or 1DX for that matter?)
yes, i think it will be better than the 6D. 
This camera sounds awesome. I hope these specs are spot on because i'd love to see a monster 7DII. It just seems cool. This is coming from a person who has almost no interest in buying any more APS-C bodies(unless they are tiny(EOS-M size) and dirt cheap.


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## lastcoyote (Feb 19, 2013)

facedodge said:


> The only complaint I ever heard from a 7D user was about their sensor. Now they get near 5D3 ISO ability. That is great! They also get a 25% bump in FPS, wifi, gps, upgraded AF system and a few other goodies like video features.
> 
> *And who are these people complaining that this should have been the 5D3 or 6D? 10 FPS on a FF body is called the 1Dx.*
> 
> I'm not even sure why I bother with the forum on this site.



agree.


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## pj1974 (Feb 19, 2013)

If these specs are real, I find this an impressive upgrade. As I own the 7D (which I love) - the increase in ISO performance (close to the 5DmkIII) is a particularly attractive feature for me. 61 AF pts and 10 FPS are definitely great, but not essential (I'm quite happy with the 7D's current 19 AF pts and 8 FPS). 

WiFi and GPS are 'nice' but not necessary for my use. Even less important for me are the 'lots of video' features and the dual memory card slots (please keep it CF, I have some great CF cards I want to keep using - plus same battery please while we're at it!)

The 24.1 MP is interesting.. if it has sharp per pixel definition and also has low noise across the ISO range (particularly @ ISO100 & ISO200 for landscapes) I'll be particularly happy! I do like to crop in various photos, especially for some wildlife.

Cheers! Let's see if this becomes a CR3 and then reality....!! Hope so.... 8)

Paul


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## dstppy (Feb 19, 2013)

spinworkxroy said:


> The spec list make the 5D3 look "inferior"…other than the sensor…
> And this makes the 6D look pointless..
> Isn't the smaller the number the higher end the camera?
> These are features that should've been in their flagship FF cameras from day 1.



Compare the 7D and 5DmkII


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## Gonzalo B (Feb 19, 2013)

I would like to know if the 7D mk II will be the same size of the current 7D...which I use it in a water housing...housings are as expensive as cameras...so it will be great if it is teh same size...any clues?
thanks...


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## tomscott (Feb 19, 2013)

Looks great but I highly doubt it will come close to noise wise to a FF sensor especially with 6 more MP.

If thats what your hoping for then I think you will be disappointed. An APC camera will always have more noise than a full frame sensor.

If your wanting a super fast camera (Like most seem to) and cant afford a 1D series camera then this will fly off the shelves. Sounds like a terrific upgrade from the 7D, although like said my biggest problem with it was 100-400iso so if thats improved would be a very solid second body.

I knew there was a reason I kept my 17-55mm


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## insanitybeard (Feb 19, 2013)

tomscott said:


> Looks great but I highly doubt it will come close to noise wise to a FF sensor especially with 6 more MP.
> 
> If thats what your hoping for then I think you will be disappointed. An APC camera will always have more noise than a full frame sensor.



Indeed, that's the thing... It's all still speculation of course but the key thing is the 'ISO performance close to the 5D mkIII'. Being that it's not a full frame sensor, how close is close?!


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## bseitz234 (Feb 19, 2013)

pj1974 said:


> If these specs are real, I find this an impressive upgrade. As I own the 7D (which I love) - the increase in ISO performance (close to the 5DmkIII) is a particularly attractive feature for me. 61 AF pts and 10 FPS are definitely great, but not essential (I'm quite happy with the 7D's current 19 AF pts and 8 FPS).
> 
> WiFi and GPS are 'nice' but not necessary for my use. Even less important for me are the 'lots of video' features and the dual memory card slots (please keep it CF, I have some great CF cards I want to keep using - plus same battery please while we're at it!)
> 
> ...



I agree with almost all of this- my paranoid side would be pretty happy with Dual CF slots, or at least CF+SD, because my paranoid side always likes to have a mirrored backup in case one card fails. ;-)


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## LoneRider (Feb 19, 2013)

pj1974 said:


> If these specs are real, I find this an impressive upgrade. As I own the 7D (which I love) - the increase in ISO performance (close to the 5DmkIII) is a particularly attractive feature for me. 61 AF pts and 10 FPS are definitely great, but not essential (I'm quite happy with the 7D's current 19 AF pts and 8 FPS).
> 
> WiFi and GPS are 'nice' but not necessary for my use. Even less important for me are the 'lots of video' features and the dual memory card slots (please keep it CF, I have some great CF cards I want to keep using - plus same battery please while we're at it!)
> 
> ...



I agree with Paul, I have a 7D and 50D, I will be looking for noise reduction and ISO performance.

I do not care about built in flash, finally got a SpeedLite flash, and kicking myself for waiting so long. GPS would be cool, but I love the speed of the 7D, I love the body feel of the 7D as well. With that said, I was allowed to play with a 6D and it felt REALLY nice, and I love the controls of the 6D.

But physics, are well, pretty much set in stone.

Crop sensors will always have a smaller surface area for each pixel; but allow for less expensive lens.

I like saving the money on the lens, my 2 favorite lens are both EF-S, saving something like $2000 in glass.

If the ISO/noise performance is there, I may very well add a third body to my camera drawer. (after the prices and supply settle, of course)


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## Tom W (Feb 19, 2013)

I really like the 7D, though I do confess that since I've gotten the 5D3, the 7D has seen very little use.

A high-density sensor like a 24 mpx APS-C, with much-improved noise performance and DR, would be a great improvement IMHO. Give it f/8 AF and it would be a great birder's camera body.


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## emag (Feb 19, 2013)

No....integrated.....coffee....maker. Arrrrggghhh! When will Canon get on the ball? I'm so disappointed.......

Sounds like a fine tool


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## bchernicoff (Feb 19, 2013)

Even Sony's 24mp APS-C sensor has too much noise. Do we really believe for a second that Canon is going to come out with a sensor that beats theirs? I'm not down on Canon...I LOVE my 5D Mk III, I just feel like people in this thread are getting their hopes up A LOT.


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## DzPhotography (Feb 19, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> ISO Performance to get close to the 5D3


I wanna see that :


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## bchernicoff (Feb 19, 2013)

Freelancer said:


>



This makes me happy!


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## jonjt (Feb 19, 2013)

"The Last Camera Syndrome" article really applies here. These specs are all nice but, none will persuade me to buy the 7D mkii, over my 7D. All, except for one. If this new APS-C sensor really does have, at the least, 5Dmkii noise performance, then I will strive to purchase one. The problem is, I seriously doubt the sensor will achieve such performance, even with superb noise reduction software and resizing. 

One can only hope. If not, my 7D will remain a prized possession.


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## Ladislav (Feb 19, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> Build quality like 5D3
> GPS & Wifi



These two rumors seem quite contradictory. Quote from 6D in-depth review by DPReview:

_Construction is solid, if perhaps not offering quite the same bullet-proof feel as the EOS 5D Mark III or EOS 7D. In part this is because the 6D has a plastic top plate, which according to Canon is necessary to allow the Wi-Fi and GPS to work. The rest of the body uses a magnesium alloy shell, and Canon describes it as 'dust and drip-proof'. _

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-6d/3


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## docsmith (Feb 19, 2013)

I think the potential for this to be correct is very real. But it isn't just noise where the 7D sensor needs to improve, but include DR and color. I just upgraded from the 7D to the 5DIII and multiple aspects of IQ are standing out...not just noise. The images are just richer...and, this surprised me, easier to post-process.

Love the 7D, and honestly, I was waiting on a 7DII with much the same specs posted in the rumor. But it is going to take a lot of hands-on reviews before I am convinced the IQ is equal to FF.


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## Dylan777 (Feb 19, 2013)

Would be nice if rumor 7D II can take good photos in lower light, useable @ ISO3200.


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## awinphoto (Feb 19, 2013)

hmmmm... I'm looking to update my aging 7d (backup camera)... but i'm not looking to spend 2100 on an crop sensor, especially as a backup... I wonder what goodies will come with the 70D.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 19, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> ISO Performance to get close to the 5D3



The rest of the spec list looks pretty darn good, but I'll believe the line about ISO performance when I see RAW files. But then again, in marketing speak 'close to the 5D3' might mean simply that the native range is 100-12800 (which is 'close to' the 100-25600 native range of the 5DIII and a 1-stop improvement on the 7D spec). Many times, Canon's statements about ISO performance improvements refer to JPG images or ISO range, not noise levels at a given ISO setting.


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## lopicma (Feb 19, 2013)

This looks like the camera everyone wanted the 6D to be. The specs look great on paper, and that said the price is not too bad either. 

Time to put some coins in the bank for next Christmas. ;D


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## Woody (Feb 19, 2013)

bchernicoff said:


> Even Sony's 24mp APS-C sensor has too much noise.



Not according to DXOMark.


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## Dylan777 (Feb 19, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > ISO Performance to get close to the 5D3
> ...



+1 with Neuro


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## East Wind Photography (Feb 19, 2013)

Regardless, the price point looks good and based on the specs provided thus far, I would likely purchase. Hope it stays in that price range and doesn't get pumped over 3K.



Dylan777 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...


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## Zlatko (Feb 19, 2013)

Viggo said:


> "What the 6d should have been" are we
> Somehow missing the fact that the 6d is full frame and the better FF is called 5d3 and the better 5d3 is called 1d X.


Exactly right. The better camera (the one it "should have been") always exists — but people don't want to pay for it. They want the flagship camera features at the economy camera price. Oh, and they want all of the flagship camera features in the economy camera size & weight. That point of view always seems unrealistic to me.


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## GMCPhotographics (Feb 19, 2013)

The 61 point AF is an obvious upgrade. The 10 fps would be welcome, but 8 was fine. 24mp? Well ok, but what's it's pixel quality and iso ability like? These are the two biggest dissapointments with the 7D. Compare the files from a 5DIII and there's no comparison.


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## awinphoto (Feb 19, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



Well any camera could be close to the 5d3 in low light... it just depends on how much blurring and NR you do to combat it ;D ;D


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## East Wind Photography (Feb 19, 2013)

Hopefully the shutter noise will closer to the 5DIII and less like the 1DX!



GMCPhotographics said:


> The 61 point AF is an obvious upgrade. The 10 fps would be welcome, but 8 was fine. 24mp? Well ok, but what's it's pixel quality and iso ability like? These are the two biggest dissapointments with the 7D. Compare the files from a 5DIII and there's no comparison.


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## aj1575 (Feb 19, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> it looks like what the 6d should have been but with a ff sensor. so annoying.
> 
> will this be better than the 6d?



What you mean is the 5D3.

This is what I thought will happen. The 7DII is a high end APS-C camera for the action shooter. The 6D is the semipro camera for the landscape and portrait shooter. The cameras are priced in the same range, so it is up to the user to deceide what he want's. High FPS and sophisticated AF (7DII), or superior Image quality (6D)


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## Zlatko (Feb 19, 2013)

spinworkxroy said:


> And this makes the 6D look pointless..


Not at all. The 6D offers a sensor twice as big in a body that is slightly smaller and lighter than the 7D, and likely slightly smaller and lighter than the 7DII. Each camera will have its purpose.


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## Lawliet (Feb 19, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > ISO Performance to get close to the 5D3
> ...


Lets assume the other interpretation was meant: not the same settings, but the settings that lead to similar results in terms of perspective and DOF. Good enough for anybody working not wide open.
That could work out if the infrastructure shrinks in proportion to the sensor or the same real estate is used for improved electronics


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## GMCPhotographics (Feb 19, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> spinworkxroy said:
> 
> 
> > And this makes the 6D look pointless..
> ...



Yep, completley different cameras, different markets, application and specs. 
I'm considering a 3rd camera and the 6D is ticking all the right boxes for me to go alongside my current 5DIII's....the 7DII prolly wouldn't be so attractive to me unless the ISO raw capability was close to a 5DIII/6D.


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## aj1575 (Feb 19, 2013)

I'm espacially looking forward to the sensor. 24MP most likely means that it will Canons first DSLR sensor from the 0.18um process (down from 50um). This would mean a bigger step in sensor evolution for Canon. It will be interesting to see how they compare to Sony and to Canon FF.


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## jonjt (Feb 19, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> jonjt said:
> 
> 
> > "The Last Camera Syndrome" article really applies here. These specs are all nice but, none will persuade me to buy the 7D mkii, over my 7D. All, except for one. If this new APS-C sensor really does have, at the least, 5Dmkii noise performance, then I will strive to purchase one. The problem is, I seriously doubt the sensor will achieve such performance, even with superb noise reduction software and resizing.
> ...



They certainly will. I was only speaking from the perspective of someone that has a 7D.


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## Bob Howland (Feb 19, 2013)

I own a 7D (and a 5D3). In a 7D2, I'd rather have the same pixel count and dramatically better high ISO image quality and dynamic range than 24MP and slightly better high ISO image quality and dynamic range. (I almost always shoot raw.) I'd like two CF card slots but can live with 1 CF and 1 SD. 10 FPS is better but 8 FPS is usually good enough. Improved focusing is always welcome but, honestly, 7D focusing is pretty good now.


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## Lee Jay (Feb 19, 2013)

If it has f/8 AF points, a decent sensor, and video crop modes, I might even order one at launch. Next, they need to update the 5DIII with the sensor tech from this camera and add GPS and WiFi. GPS isn't a frivolous thing for those of us that geo-tag our images. It saves considerable time in post.


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## nolken (Feb 19, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > ISO Performance to get close to the 5D3
> ...



I agree completely. I was thinking the exact same thing as far as the marketing strategy is concerned. It would not surprise me one bit. I can't imagine the 7D mark II having comparable noise at the same ISO speed as the 5D mark III.


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## MichaelHodges (Feb 19, 2013)

Looks great, but I doubt I'll be upgrading my 7D for it. 24mp on APS-C just scares me, and makes me think jpg in-camera processing rather than dynamic range and blue channel noise in RAW at ISO 100 and 200.

My current 7D is built like a tank and does pretty well.

---------------

http://michaelhodgesfiction.com/


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## ishdakuteb (Feb 19, 2013)

sound like a great camera and there is two things that i would like to add to this camera if canon could help:
1. highlight alert (i.e. default/or auto enable like canon 20d, 30d, etc) when viewing image with histogram
2. spot metering circle (options to enable it as if it in other metering mode is selected. not just like 7d, it only offer with spot metering mode)
3. exposure hold (options to enable not to timeout as long as new exposure is choosen). i believe that with this option, i would probably moving faster than now in Av and Tv mode. for now, i have to use manual mode all the time since exposure would be canceled during the time that i am playing around with focus point(s)

note:
1. on the third option, i am not sure if i know how to use it properly on my canon 7d. but even setting up with exposure hold. it would not hold my exposure like i have stated 
2. feel free to add to my wish list


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## nolken (Feb 19, 2013)

ishdakuteb said:


> 3. exposure hold (options to enable not to timeout as long as new exposure is choosen). i believe that with this option, i would probably moving faster than now in Av and Tv mode. for now, i have to use manual mode all the time since exposure would be canceled during the time that i am playing around with focus point(s)



the AE lock holds for 4 seconds on the 7D. I do believe that it will lock continuously so long as you press the button at least once every 4 seconds, though i have not tested this as i do not use this feature often.


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## RLPhoto (Feb 19, 2013)

Good up to this point canon, Don't drop it now.


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## M.ST (Feb 19, 2013)

1. A prototype that is very near to your spec list has 2 cf cards slots. 

2. Another prototype that is a little more different has a CF and a SD card slot.

But if I look at the 6D it can be, that Canon puts 2 SD card slots in it.

I personally prefer (1).

If you put the 24-70 2.8 II on the prototype the AF-system works very very fast. 

Canon cannot put the same AF-system like the 5D Mark III´s in an 7D Mark II for the mentioned price. So don´t expect it.

If you are a hobby photographer and you want a 5D Mark III or 6D wait and try out the 7D Mark II before or wait for the new big megapixel camera.

I don´t like the power eating WIFI and GPS in an 7D Mark II.


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## AprilForever (Feb 19, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> <div name=\"googleone_share_1\" style=\"position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;\"><glusone size=\"tall\" count=\"1\" href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/?p=12918\"></glusone></div><div style=\"float: right; margin:0 0 70px 70px;\"><a href=\"https://twitter.com/share\" class=\"twitter-share-button\" data-count=\"vertical\" data-url=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/?p=12918\">Tweet</a></div>
> <strong>First spec list in a long time
> 
> 
> ...




THE AIR IS GOOD!!!


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## Lawliet (Feb 19, 2013)

ishdakuteb said:


> 1. highlight alert (i.e. default/or auto enable like canon 20d, 30d, etc) when viewing image with histogram



Or better Zebras like real video monitors provide: with settable levels, preferable one in white for highlights, one inred for shadows, one in blue for a selected mid tone level - indicating where in the zone system a part of the picture is.
Add focus peaking for everything involving Lv and manual focus.


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## ddashti (Feb 19, 2013)

Finally, something to work with and gear the hopes towards!


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## bear (Feb 19, 2013)

I just hope, that X-Sync will be at least on par with 1D mark IV (1/300) or better.


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## nolken (Feb 19, 2013)

Lawliet said:


> ishdakuteb said:
> 
> 
> > 1. highlight alert (i.e. default/or auto enable like canon 20d, 30d, etc) when viewing image with histogram
> ...



magic lantern?


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## Rienzphotoz (Feb 19, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> <div name=\"googleone_share_1\" style=\"position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;\"><glusone size=\"tall\" count=\"1\" href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/?p=12918\"></glusone></div><div style=\"float: right; margin:0 0 70px 70px;\"><a href=\"https://twitter.com/share\" class=\"twitter-share-button\" data-count=\"vertical\" data-url=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/?p=12918\">Tweet</a></div>
> <strong>First spec list in a long time
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds really good ... if it does have "10 fps; dual memory cards; 61 AF points and will basically be a mini EOS-1D X" I think $2199 is not too bad a deal ... of course I'd be very happy to pay less than that ... either way, this sounds really good ... time for me to start saving money.


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## ishdakuteb (Feb 19, 2013)

nolken said:


> ishdakuteb said:
> 
> 
> > 3. exposure hold (options to enable not to timeout as long as new exposure is choosen). i believe that with this option, i would probably moving faster than now in Av and Tv mode. for now, i have to use manual mode all the time since exposure would be canceled during the time that i am playing around with focus point(s)
> ...



that is what i thought, but there is an option of exposure hold offered in canon 7d (not sure exactly what this does (not playing around with this option that much since i found out that it is also timed out. i prefer there is an option to hold it until i am going to cancel it or choose another exposure.

it is kinda slow when choosing focus point and keep track exposure at the same time. however, there is a work around in this case (i do not like it but having no choice as if i am choosing to shoot in Av or Tv) which i have haft press shutter again prior to choosen exposure time out. 

as current rumor specs of 7d mark ii, it is a great config, in fact i am loving it already  not sure how noise at high iso turn out.

note: if canon can help me to put this option into my 5d mark iii, i would love my canon gears more


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## jimjamesjimmy (Feb 19, 2013)

aj1575 said:


> jimjamesjimmy said:
> 
> 
> > it looks like what the 6d should have been but with a ff sensor. so annoying.
> ...




how can a 7d be professional, and a 6d be semi professional? the numbers literally dont add up! surely a FF camera has to be better than an aps-c in terms of spec. 9 af points vs 61 is just crazy!!


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## RLPhoto (Feb 19, 2013)

What If.... It also had built In RT triggers for speedlites? I'd trade that for GPS/WIFI anyday


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## Lawliet (Feb 19, 2013)

nolken said:


> magic lantern?



I'd prefer something officially supported - botching a production because of something unexpected happening in conjunction with a hack would seriously suck.


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## ishdakuteb (Feb 19, 2013)

Lawliet said:


> nolken said:
> 
> 
> > magic lantern?
> ...



+1


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## ishdakuteb (Feb 19, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> What If.... It also had built In RT triggers for speedlites? I'd trade that for GPS/WIFI anyday



did not think about that... this option is great.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 19, 2013)

SJ said:


> wow, sound good 8), ready for sale my 7D



Imho this sounds *too* good to be true, either Canon is going to radically change their pricing policy or the 7d2 will either be nowhere near 5d3 af/iso performance or cost a lot more €€€...



Lawliet said:


> I'd prefer something officially supported - botching a production because of something unexpected happening in conjunction with a hack would seriously suck.



Magic Lantern is no hack but original quality software that has been proven a lot during the last 1-2 years.



M.ST said:


> If you are a hobby photographer and you want a 5D Mark III or 6D wait and try out the 7D Mark II before or wait for the new big megapixel camera.



But in reverse you'd still predict that the 6d will keep the edge for pro or semi-pro low light shooting, correct? However I expect the 6d price to drop a lot after the 70d/7d2 release if the aps-c iso performance has really improved.


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## JohanCruyff (Feb 19, 2013)

24.1 * 2.56... its pixel density corresponds to a 61MP full frame sensor!


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## gjones5252 (Feb 19, 2013)

Not sure why there is a lot of complaining. This camera sounds awesome! Not need for full frame. I have been waiting for an apsc camera to work well along side my 5d's. the spec list sounds great! Hope it sooner than later. 

I wonder if the price is kit or body? My guess is its body. As long as they offer body option ill be happy I have no need for another kit lens.


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## Lawliet (Feb 19, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Magic Lantern is no hack but original quality software that has been proven a lot during the last 1-2 years.



Neither the insurance company nor the client cares. Who takes the blame if something goes wrong?


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## Wilmark (Feb 19, 2013)

"built like the 5D III"
NOT possible - as it will have a pop up flash, chances are if its got GPS and WiFi - a solid magnesium alloy body will hurt that. 

Seems like same thrust just like the former 7D only improved to reflect contemporary expectations - Great Speed, Focus, Video Features and build only crappy IQ.


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## candyman (Feb 19, 2013)

24.1mp APS-C Sensor
10fps
Dual Memory Card Slots
61 AF Points
ISO Performance to get close to the 5D3
GPS & Wifi
And for 2100$ ?

No way! Looks like someones dreamlist.
As a 7D user I love to have this kind of upgrade but it seems unreal to me.

Why jump from 19 to 61 points? 19 is good. The combo of 24.1MP and 10fps is already impressive upgrade. Why GPS & WiFi? There are available solutions


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## sanj (Feb 19, 2013)

DzPhotography said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > ISO Performance to get close to the 5D3
> ...



Me too. Saying it, aint doing it.


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## unfocused (Feb 19, 2013)

Woody said:


> ...Have a look at Thom Hogan's article entitled 'The Last Camera Syndrome'. We are getting there, if not there already.



Thanks for the recommendation. He's saying something that I've been seriously thinking about. Lots of people complain that recent upgrades are only marginal improvements, but that's kind of the point with technology isn't it. The first couple generations of DSLRs saw major improvements, but with each successive generation, the "real estate" available for improvement gets smaller and smaller. 

I love my 7D. I believe I am a generation or two away from my "last 7D." But, I can see the end of the tunnel.

On the other hand if I were in the market for a full-frame body, the current 5DIII probably has everything I would ever want.


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## Don Haines (Feb 19, 2013)

You characters can argue till the cows come home... but I'd buy one with those specs and that price, and in the end, that's what matters to Canon. People will buy them.


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## jimjamesjimmy (Feb 19, 2013)

im not arguing with anyone, im just not gonna be called an idiot for asking a question.


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## unfocused (Feb 19, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> cant i ask why 6d hasnt got the features the 7d has? if im paying more money for something that is supposedly above it in a camera range (going from 1-7, generally the cameras get better and more expensive) then surely i can ask why the 7d has so many more af points or a better body casing or a better iso performance etc etc
> 
> the people on here are seriously up themselves sometimes. im guesing that comes with the vast disposable incomes most seem to have.



You can ask anything you want.

Here are the answers: 

In the 6D you are paying for a full frame sensor, which is much more expensive to manufacture than an APS-C sensor. This has been discussed on this forum and on others many, many times. Canon even has a white paper on it.

Model numbers don't have to mean anything. There is no law that says that the order in which cameras are named makes one better than another. People get hung up on the numbers. What's the point? Who cares? Nobody even knows the model numbers except geeks anyway.


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## mycanonphotos (Feb 19, 2013)

After seeing this spec list, being an owner of the 5D3 and 7D.....I'll stick with what I have....only if the ISO is dramatically better then what it is now and only better than the 5D3 will I think about buying a new crop body in the 7DII.. not really intrested in the added AF..could care less about the GPS and WI-FI..my main concern is the sensor quality, dynamic range, ISO performance and zone metering...if its built like the 7D Im cool with that..perhaps put a better humb wheel in...


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## dtaylor (Feb 19, 2013)

M.ST said:


> Canon cannot put the same AF-system like the 5D Mark III´s in an 7D Mark II for the mentioned price. So don´t expect it.



Canon could put the 1DX's AF system in every body they've got. The AF components are among the cheapest to manufacture. Like everyone else they use AF specs to segment the market, but the 1DX AF is not actually hundreds of dollars more to manufacture then the Rebel's AF.

Whether or not they will put the 5D3's AF in the 7D2 remains to be seen.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 19, 2013)

dtaylor said:


> Whether or not they will put the 5D3's AF in the 7D2 remains to be seen.



Completely different size aps-c vs ff... but that is not necessarily a bad thing since it's probably easier to put a larger af point spread in a aps-c than a ff, so the 7d2 af might even have an edge for tracking across the whole frame.



jimjamesjimmy said:


> cant i ask why 6d hasnt got the features the 7d has? if im paying more money for something that is supposedly above it in a camera range (going from 1-7, generally the cameras get better and more expensive) then surely i can ask why the 7d has so many more af points or a better body casing or a better iso performance etc etc



Except for the price of the ff sensor there is a decisive difference - the 6d has a big brother and Canon doesn't want to cannibalize their 5d3 sales, while the 7d2 will be the top of the aps-c line so Canon can put everything in it and people will still pay the price because aps-c and ff have different markets (sports/wildlife vs portrait/event). If and when the 70d arrives you'll see the the same feature-cut procedure of the 6d again.


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## Don Haines (Feb 19, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> im not arguing with anyone, im just not gonna be called an idiot for asking a question.


I thought yours was a good question.....


Features don't necessaraly go with the "pro-ness" of the body. They have to be released at some time..... it may end up being a case of "from this time on the camerta gets x". For example, look at WiFi.... first on the T4i ( actually first on the p/s's...), then the 6D comes out with wifi.... and now it's a good bet that every body that comes out will have it. As things trickle through the product life cycles, you end up with the interesting situation where low end cameras have it but the "pro" ones don't....

You can't think of FF and APS-C as being the same line of cameras.... FF starts with the 6D, then 5DIII, then the 1 series... Introductory, enthusiast, pro. APS-C equivalent is the Rebels, 60D (70D?), and 7D(2?).... introductory, enthusiast, pro. move up the line and sealing gets better, frame rate improves, and features improve.


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## Rienzphotoz (Feb 19, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> how can a 7d be professional, and a 6d be semi professional? the numbers literally dont add up! surely a FF camera has to be better than an aps-c in terms of spec. 9 af points vs 61 is just crazy!!


Why not?
APS-H is not full frame, but it was considered a professional camera compared to a full frame like a 5D ... so it is possible to make an APS-C camera that can be considered a professional camera, especially for budget conscious sports photographers *if *the 7D II has 10 fps and all the other goodies that were mentioned.


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## Stewbyyy (Feb 19, 2013)

A 1.6 crop sensor AND a 24mp image to crop into? Talk about reach... sounds too good to be true. If image quality is good, that is.


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## Aglet (Feb 19, 2013)

hjulenissen said:


> If it had the sensor quality of at least a Nikon 3200 and some revolutionary new AF system that would drastically reduce my f/1.8 lowlight misses, I would consider it.



+1
Canon's new APS-C flagship better have at least the sensor performance of their main competitor's cheapest, entry-level, base camera.
Oh, if only they could...


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## that1guyy (Feb 19, 2013)

Lawliet said:


> nolken said:
> 
> 
> > magic lantern?
> ...



Well thousands use it on pro gigs with no problems.

Anyways, magic lantern is installed on an sd card. If something is not working, just use another card.


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## skycolt (Feb 19, 2013)

I like everything in the spec except 24MP sensor. I like a clean sensor rather than a high MP one. I don't like the big file size it generated. And it may be too critical for my lenses and I have to put more money on better lenses again. for me, 18MP is already too much. I don't know the resolution limit of 400mm 2.8 and 500mm f4. I definitively don't want to buy them in the near future. But maybe canon can add some algorithm to generate better s/mRAW files


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## Powder Portraits (Feb 19, 2013)

I can't wait. Will start saving my money now. Hopefully their will be a little price break right before Xmas 2013.


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## jrista (Feb 19, 2013)

Apop said:


> gps and wifi can be dropped, who needs that on a wildlife camera? (ok gps might be handy..., but i wanna choose)
> 
> Other then that the specs look what i hoped for..., if this is true i am very likely to use this on a long lens and the 1dmkiv on a 70-200'ish
> 
> Now just hope it gets announced soon and that the specs will be like that!



Well, if you have a little bit of imagination... Keep in mind, big desktop PC's are no longer the primary platform for computing. I would LOVE to have BOTH GPS and WiFi in my DSLR. Obviously GPS, so I can track where I took my photos without having to go through the process manually in post (which can take hours for a lot of photos). WiFi, because I can have a tablet (Surface Pro in my case) off in my car, tethered to my phone which is acting like a wireless hotspot. I can either buy an app (if one exists) or write an app (its really easy these days) to automatically receive incoming photos from my camera as I take them, organize and archive them, possibly even upload copies and JPEGs to my SkyDrive for backup if I am within range of a cell phone tower (which, in my case, is often the case as I photograph birds at the local state parks and reserves within or near city boundaries, etc.

The world is no longer bound to processing your photos on a desktop. Don't get me wrong...I'll NEVER give up my desktop...that puppy is a beast that has the power to drive high megapixel processing of my photos in that power-sucking tool we all love to hate: Lightroom. But a lot of cool things can be done out in the field, so long as you are within range, using a smartphone, a tablet, and a wifi connection. The backup opportunities alone, when within range of a cell tower, could be huge! Obviously if you are way out in the middle of nowhere, these benefits diminish...however being able to tether the camera to a tablet as a means of extra storage at the very least, with the tablet powered by your car's battery, is still a handy convenience and a useful bonus.


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## jrista (Feb 19, 2013)

skycolt said:


> I like everything in the spec except 24MP sensor. I like a clean sensor rather than a high MP one. I don't like the big file size it generated. And it may be too critical for my lenses and I have to put more money on better lenses again. for me, 18MP is already too much. I don't know the resolution limit of 400mm 2.8 and 500mm f4. I definitively don't want to buy them in the near future. But maybe canon can add some algorithm to generate better s/mRAW files



If the sensor is fabricated on a 180nm design with higher Q.E., those 24mp could look FAR better than the 18mp the original 7D has now. It all depends on whether Canon ups the ante on sensor tech, or just moves to a higher pixel count. If the former, technically speaking, there is never anything "bad" about more resolution. Even if the sensor outresolves your lens, if you scale down to 18mp, 16mp, or anything "web sized", it will still look better than the 7D...you won't see any softness when scaled down, even with lenses that might not quite be good enough.

For all the rest of us who have or are willing to buy better glass, the higher resolution means more reach, so our expensive glass goes that much farther. I'm all for 24.1mp....assuming Canon actually moves to a new process and makes those 24 million pixels BETTER.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 19, 2013)

that1guyy said:


> Lawliet said:
> 
> 
> > nolken said:
> ...



... or just simply press the SET key when starting the camera, ml will disable itself and it'll be like a clean sd card.


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## zim (Feb 19, 2013)

Wonder how sensitive the centre AF point will be, down to -3?


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## viggen61 (Feb 19, 2013)

lastcoyote said:


> No that's the wrong way of looking at it.
> The 6D is pitched as an 'entry level' or first time FF body.
> The 7D line is the 'high end' Crop body.



Precisely!

Counting my pennies...


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## ishdakuteb (Feb 19, 2013)

i am in for one as long as canon can make it low noise at high iso (do not really much care about luminosity noise, but color noise is annoying). cannot imagine that 61 new focus points speading through out corner of the screen... love it

note: do not forget about trying to add an option which toggles between AE Lock Hold and AE Lock Cancel, pefer not to keep my thumb full time on a button for holding exposure... my thumb should be on my joint stick to select my desired focus point


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## viggen61 (Feb 19, 2013)

jrista said:


> Well, if you have a little bit of imagination... Keep in mind, big desktop PC's are no longer the primary platform for computing. I would LOVE to have BOTH GPS and WiFi in my DSLR. Obviously GPS, so I can track where I took my photos without having to go through the process manually in post (which can take hours for a lot of photos). WiFi, because I can have a tablet (Surface Pro in my case) off in my car, tethered to my phone which is acting like a wireless hotspot. I can either buy an app (if one exists) or write an app (its really easy these days) to automatically receive incoming photos from my camera as I take them, organize and archive them, possibly even upload copies and JPEGs to my SkyDrive for backup if I am within range of a cell phone tower (which, in my case, is often the case as I photograph birds at the local state parks and reserves within or near city boundaries, etc.
> 
> The world is no longer bound to processing your photos on a desktop. Don't get me wrong...I'll NEVER give up my desktop...that puppy is a beast that has the power to drive high megapixel processing of my photos in that power-sucking tool we all love to hate: Lightroom. But a lot of cool things can be done out in the field, so long as you are within range, using a smartphone, a tablet, and a wifi connection. The backup opportunities alone, when within range of a cell tower, could be huge! Obviously if you are way out in the middle of nowhere, these benefits diminish...however being able to tether the camera to a tablet as a means of extra storage at the very least, with the tablet powered by your car's battery, is still a handy convenience and a useful bonus.



Agreed completely! I can definitely see WiFi tethering and GPS as bonus features for wildlife. You could set up your camera observing a nest, say, and be comfortably out of sight in your car, or in a chair a few feet away. The bird wouldn't get spooked by moving to take the shot. They still might be by the sound, but hopefully you'll get at least a few shots off!

And the ability to WiFi it to my iPad would be really handy!


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## jrista (Feb 19, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > jimjamesjimmy said:
> ...



Don't underestimate the cost of an FF sensor. They are still almost 4x the area of an APS-C. Also, the 7D has classically had a higher frame rate, and if the "trend" holds true, it will be 2fps less than the FF 1D series flagship. At 24mp, no matter how good the sensor is (unless its got about 80-90% Q.E., which I HIGHLY doubt), it will most certainly be noiser than the 5D III. The much larger pixel area of the 5D III will always give it the edge in terms of IQ. The 5D III will also have other benefits, such as thinner DOF thanks to the larger FoV (allowing closer focus), etc.

The two cameras are designed for different audiences. The 5D III is still going to be the king of general purpose cameras, hands down. The 7D II will fill more of a niche market of wildlife photographers who want extra reach in a lighter package, but I wouldn't call it a real "general purpose" camera like the 5D III. I'd look to a 5D III for portraiture, landscapes, pretty much everything outside of wildlife and birds, and even then...if I have the opportunity to get closer, such as when photographing songbirds in my yard, I'll grab the 5D III and telephoto lens like the 600 f/4 without a TC. Better boke, closer focus, and frame-filling such that the 7D would clip the subjects.


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## RMC33 (Feb 19, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> *What If.... It also had built In RT triggers for speedlites?* I'd trade that for GPS/WIFI anyday




THISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Although I would like the GPS TBH.


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## Lawliet (Feb 19, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> ... or just simply press the SET key when starting the camera, ml will disable itself and it'll be like a clean sd card.



Thats post facto, damage already done. I wouldn't care about a destroyed camera, but the lost time and reset/pickup costs hurt.


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## jimjamesjimmy (Feb 19, 2013)

viggen61 said:


> lastcoyote said:
> 
> 
> > No that's the wrong way of looking at it.
> ...



so the 6d is 'entry level' yet the 7d 2 is high end.

doesnt want to make me buy the 6d anymore!


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## RMC33 (Feb 19, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> viggen61 said:
> 
> 
> > lastcoyote said:
> ...



6D is entry level to the FF segment. Aimed at a backup for people with a 5d3 or just making the jump from a APS-C to FF. It is a GREAT camera and will produce wonderful images. The 7d2 is aimed at people who have the need for a 1.6x crop factor (sports, wildlife etc). Both cameras will fit perfectly into their respective roles perfectly.

Hell.. I would not be surprised if because of the low light performance and lower weight of the 6d you see a large number of 5dMkII wedding shooters swap over to it over the Mk3.

A number of people have stated it.. the Mk3 is a good "general purpose" camera and that is exactly what I use mine for.


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## Blaze (Feb 19, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> viggen61 said:
> 
> 
> > lastcoyote said:
> ...



Yes. The 6D is an entry level full frame camera whereas the 7D is a premium crop camera.

That doesn't mean that the 7D is necessarily the better choice. The FF sensor makes a huge difference. Because of its much larger (and newer) sensor, the 6D will produce much cleaner images with better color and dynamic range especially in low light situations.

The 6D can't match the AF, build quality, and speed of the 7D but you shouldn't expect it to. It's aimed at people who want the benefits of a FF sensor but who don't need / don't want to pay for those extra features. If you need those features, that's where the 5D3 and 1DX come in, but the 6D offers pretty much the same image quality for a much lower price.


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## Etienne (Feb 19, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> viggen61 said:
> 
> 
> > lastcoyote said:
> ...



I upgraded to 5DII instead of 7D years ago because I did not like the IQ of the 7D. Even though the 7D had better AF, and some other tricks, I didn't regret it for a minute.

I upgraded to the 5DIII recently instead of 6D because the 5DIII does everything well, and has better video IQ and better video features. To me the 5DIII is worth the price over the 6D.

Given the choice of 6D or 7DII at similar prices, I'd likely go 6D. It's very hard to do without FF goodness once you've had it.

At this point I'd only be tempted by a fully featured APS-C (of super-35) video camera at under $3000 (C50 maybe?) because the 5DIII is such an amazing do-everything camera.


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## Viggo (Feb 19, 2013)

I don't really believe that the noise performance would be that much better than the current 7d. They went down on res compared to the 5d2 with the 1dX and up in sensor size to be better than the 1d4, the 5d3 has the same res as the 5d2 and still is only better over 1600/3200 iso. So increasing the mp from 18 to 24 on an aps-c sensor doesn't read killer high iso performance for me. MP still sells....


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## Marsu42 (Feb 19, 2013)

Etienne said:


> Given the choice of 6D or 7DII at similar prices, I'd likely go 6D. It's very hard to do without FF goodness once you've had it.



I'll also buy a ff in the next time, but again what you're saying isn't valid for everyone - what good does a ff sensor if the lens cannot reach your subject or the tc you have to plug on lowers iq, aperture and af speed? Sure you can buy a tele prime which compensates the 1.6x reach difference, but at higher weight, bulk and 5 times the price - that's not for everyone.

Plus the smaller depth of field of a ff sensor (given the same subject size in the resulting shot) might be a problem for many shots, for wildlife I often have to stop down to f10 to get even a tiny bird in full focus - so I'll certainly keep and use my 60d even once I have a 6d.


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## Lee Jay (Feb 19, 2013)

Etienne said:


> Given the choice of 6D or 7DII at similar prices, I'd likely go 6D. It's very hard to do without FF goodness once you've had it.



Baloney.

Depends on what you're shooting. When I'm shooting airshows I'll take a speedy crop camera over a slower and larger pixel full-frame every time, and I do. When I'm shooting slower stuff, lower light stuff, or when I'm not focal length limited, I'll shoot the full-frame.


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## Don Haines (Feb 19, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> viggen61 said:
> 
> 
> > lastcoyote said:
> ...



You have to look at the right tool for the job....

Some jobs are best done with FF cameras, some with APS-C cameras, and some with P/S.... I can get a 1DX and lots of L glass for it, but if what I want is an inspection camera that I have to be able to fit through a 1 inch slot, that 1DX sucks and an iPhone rocks. If your job is best done by a FF camera with apropriate lenses, then FF rocks and APS-C sucks... but there are other time when APS-C beats FF.... And no, this is not a sensor size thing... it is a combination of sensor, lens, weight, cost, and features.

A 1DX takes better pictures than an iphone....but if I decide that convenience is more important than image quality, I'd reach for the iPhone.... better tool for the job at hand. If I want to take landscape photos, personally, I would pick the 6D over the 7D any day of the week. If I'm going hiking I want an APS-C camera with a superzoom lens. Right tool for the job.


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## awinphoto (Feb 19, 2013)

xamkrah said:


> PLZ TAKE MY MONEY!



I will send you a PM with my address... feel free to mail me your money.


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## awinphoto (Feb 19, 2013)

candyman said:


> 24.1mp APS-C Sensor
> 10fps
> Dual Memory Card Slots
> 61 AF Points
> ...



The 5d2 only had 9 points with a handful "invisible assist points"... seems logical for the "king" of APC cameras..


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## RGomezPhotos (Feb 19, 2013)

Slam in a FF sensor with these MP and this would've been an awesome 5D3! LOL!

Still, it's a pretty darn nice sports and wildlife shooter. A totally nice and great upgrade to the current 7D.


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## jrista (Feb 19, 2013)

candyman said:


> Why jump from 19 to 61 points? 19 is good.



Yup...19 is "good". Not great. As someone who spends nearly every weekend and as much of each weekday as he can with his 7D, I know the 19 point AF system intimately. It is good, but FAR from great. It could really use an improvement. I'd LOVE to have 61 points like the 5D III. However, I'd be happy with something like a 41pt reticular AF system with 21pt cross type, if that is all that would fit in the APS-C frame. Part of the problem with the 19pt AF system is the points are still fairly widely spaced, and there are areas where no AF points exist at all due to the diamond shape. A reticular, more rectangular shape to the AF point array would be a VERY WELCOME improvement to the good 19pt system.

To really make it "great" though, I think the AF drive firmware needs to be improved. The thing that drives me the most crazy about my 7D is the jittery AF. You can NAIL focus right on a birds eye, and the bird can be PERFECTLY STILL...and the 7D AF system will still jump around by microscopic amounts in AI Servo. If you hold the button down, or press, release, press, the AF system is always "trying" to re-lock. Sometimes, even when a solid AF lock is already held, on a stationary or moving subject, the 7D will suddenly start hunting. Most annoying quirk of an AF system ever. I blame it partly on the widely spaced points, and mostly on the recent firmware update (which seemed to make the problem worse.)


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## Larry (Feb 19, 2013)

ishdakuteb said:


> my thumb should be on my joint stick to select my desired focus point



If your thumb is on your joint stick, it would seem that you have already selected what you want to focus on. :

When you are ready to take some photos, move it back to the camera.


----------



## Menace (Feb 19, 2013)

Can't wait for this one to be announced


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## gnd (Feb 19, 2013)

The way I see it the 7D and 5D lines should be launched in parallel with identical specs, one tweaked for FF the other for APSC. Otherwise there's consumer unfair.

It doesn't feel right having to pay $1,000 extra (5D3) and get better specs from a cheaper model (either it be faster fps, built-in GPS, etc.). Now, that doesn't mean bring down 7D2 specs or charge it extra, it means pull together your Canon marketing!! It seems 5D, 7D departments work independently against each other.

Synchronize lines: 7D3/5D3, 7D4/5D4. That's the way to pace with consumer. We saw amalgamation of 1D, well it's time for a clearer product strategy overall.


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## hmmm (Feb 19, 2013)

RGomezPhotos said:


> Slam in a FF sensor with these MP and this would've been an awesome 5D3! LOL!
> 
> Still, it's a pretty darn nice sports and wildlife shooter. A totally nice and great upgrade to the current 7D.



ISO almost as good as 5D mkIII, so almost almost as good as 6D. For lowlight: 6D, for action and reach: the 7D mkII specs look great. I'm really eager to see the details on that new sensor!

Really, imho everyone: lighten up already. 8)


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## jimjamesjimmy (Feb 19, 2013)

people always say the 7d range is a great wildlife camera,im sure it is, af, long reach etc. but surely image quality should be paramount? otherwise why dont all wildlife photographers carry 7d's?


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## awinphoto (Feb 19, 2013)

gnd said:


> The way I see it the 7D and 5D lines should be launched in parallel with identical specs, one tweaked for FF the other for APSC. Otherwise there's consumer unfair.
> 
> It doesn't feel right having to pay $1,000 extra (5D3) and get better specs from a cheaper model (either it be faster fps, built-in GPS, etc.). Now, that doesn't mean bring down 7D2 specs or charge it extra, it means pull together your Canon marketing!! It seems 5D, 7D departments work independently against each other.
> 
> Synchronize lines: 7D3/5D3, 7D4/5D4. That's the way to pace with consumer. We saw amalgamation of 1D, well it's time for a clearer product strategy overall.



Now you know how the 5d2 owners felt after they bought the camera and 1 year later the 7D came out with better body, FPS, better video, AF, etc.... then again, from a marketing point, it's ingenious... it encourages envy and want, which ultimately has people opening their pocket books for XYZ features.... launching both at once, a photographer may buy 1 of them... you space them out, a photographer may buy 1 of each...


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## Dart23 (Feb 19, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> people always say the 7d range is a great wildlife camera,im sure it is, af, long reach etc. but surely image quality should be paramount? otherwise why dont all wildlife photographers carry 7d's?



Actually, all wildlife photographers did carry the 7d, but then the 6d came out and they all figured it must be a better camera because the number was lower, so now they ALL own 6d's... :


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## R1-7D (Feb 19, 2013)

Sounds a little too good to be true with the ISO and Noise performance. Maybe for JPEG...but RAW will be a different story. Either way, I am sure it will be a great camera!


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## CarlTN (Feb 19, 2013)

Jrista, you're always full of useful information! Could the shutter button be a factor also? Seems like the 7D, the 5D3, and even the 1D4 I rented...have a shutter release with no satisfying "click" once you go from half press to full press. For stationary birds with my 50D, I just always use center point and single shot mode rather than servo, and use multiple half presses...the focus gets extremely sharp then. Servo mode does work for moving targets, but obviously nothing like as well as the 7D. 

But to use the multiple half press technique, you need to feel it going in and out of half press...which I could hardly ever do with the 1D4 or the 5D3...and the 7D I tried briefly felt the same way.

Have you found the 7D able to AF in very low light (25 minutes after sunset)? My 50D can do this extremely well, far better than the 1D4 did...of course both with only center point selected. I even got very accurate focus at times of like 10 minutes after sunset, when I rented the Canon 400 f/5.6 prime, on my 50D.

_Given the price of over $2k for a 7D2_, I would certainly rather go for a 6D or 5D3...but what if a 70D inherits an AF similar to the current 7D, and for barely a higher price than the old 7D sells for now? It seems to me, that a 70D full of the features we want, at the nice price...is the crop camera to get. Of course if it's _just like the 60D_ with the same feature set, lack of AFMA, and all the other Rebel features that suck...then avoid it at all costs!


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## jimjamesjimmy (Feb 19, 2013)

Dart23 said:


> jimjamesjimmy said:
> 
> 
> > people always say the 7d range is a great wildlife camera,im sure it is, af, long reach etc. but surely image quality should be paramount? otherwise why dont all wildlife photographers carry 7d's?
> ...



makes sense to me,dont tell them theres a 5d because they might presume thats a better camera too!


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## bseitz234 (Feb 19, 2013)

Dart23 said:


> jimjamesjimmy said:
> 
> 
> > people always say the 7d range is a great wildlife camera,im sure it is, af, long reach etc. but surely image quality should be paramount? otherwise why dont all wildlife photographers carry 7d's?
> ...



Don't you just wish you had my 0.5D... puts the 1Dx to shame!


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## Don Haines (Feb 19, 2013)

viggen61 said:


> Agreed completely! I can definitely see WiFi tethering and GPS as bonus features for wildlife. You could set up your camera observing a nest, say, and be comfortably out of sight in your car, or in a chair a few feet away. The bird wouldn't get spooked by moving to take the shot. They still might be by the sound, but hopefully you'll get at least a few shots off!
> 
> And the ability to WiFi it to my iPad would be really handy!



I laughed when I read this post..... At the moment, I have a GoPro camera on a tripod about two feet away from the bird feeder and am controlling it from an iPad, while sitting inside on a comfy chair, cat on my lap, cup of tea on the table... and if the 7D2 has wifi, that will be my first use for it.


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## DanielW (Feb 19, 2013)

Viggo said:


> I don't really believe that the noise performance would be that much better than the current 7d. They went down on res compared to the 5d2 with the 1dX and up in sensor size to be better than the 1d4, the 5d3 has the same res as the 5d2 and still is only better over 1600/3200 iso. So increasing the mp from 18 to 24 on an aps-c sensor doesn't read killer high iso performance for me. MP still sells....



Well, let's hope you're wrong!


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## DanielW (Feb 19, 2013)

eddiemrg said:


> In some ways the new MK II will be an improoved DSLR in video (with some more FPS..)
> Just save cash and get 7D MK I. (IMHO!)
> 
> Any featured lenses? some kind of 17-55 F2.8 MK II?



Hopefully not... I just bought myself a 17-55/2.8 last week!


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## Don Haines (Feb 19, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> people always say the 7d range is a great wildlife camera,im sure it is, af, long reach etc. but surely image quality should be paramount? otherwise why dont all wildlife photographers carry 7d's?



Sometimes it matters more to be able to carry the camera.... A 1DX and a 600f4 will take better pictures than a 7D and a 400f5.6..... but if you have to carry it on your back for a week, plus tent, sleeping bag, food, etc... that lighter and smaller camera/lens combination looks pretty attractive.


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## Don Haines (Feb 19, 2013)

DanielW said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > I don't really believe that the noise performance would be that much better than the current 7d. They went down on res compared to the 5d2 with the 1dX and up in sensor size to be better than the 1d4, the 5d3 has the same res as the 5d2 and still is only better over 1600/3200 iso. So increasing the mp from 18 to 24 on an aps-c sensor doesn't read killer high iso performance for me. MP still sells....
> ...



The rumour is "_ISO Performance to get close to the 5D3_"... So just imagine what the 5D4 and the 1DXXX will have for specs. ( the 1DXXX will be an obscene price  )


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## K-amps (Feb 19, 2013)

DanielW said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > I don't really believe that the noise performance would be that much better than the current 7d. They went down on res compared to the 5d2 with the 1dX and up in sensor size to be better than the 1d4, the 5d3 has the same res as the 5d2 and still is only better over 1600/3200 iso. So increasing the mp from 18 to 24 on an aps-c sensor doesn't read killer high iso performance for me. MP still sells....
> ...



My heart says he is wrong, my heads says he is right....


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## BrandonKing96 (Feb 19, 2013)

With such a camera, I think 24mp is overkill. The 18 was fine, i like the speed specs of it but the only real thing that would attract me is improved ISO performance. 10fps would be beautiful for me, but id much rather have the pro body of a 1d III or 1d iv.
the 1.6x crop factor interests me as well as i miss that extra reach i had after my 60D was exchanged for a 5D III, but i could never hold the 60d without feeling as if its just electronic plastic on my hands.


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## CarlTN (Feb 19, 2013)

Brandon, I think you should buy a 1D4. Equals 25 MP resolution on a full frame, but of course, cropped off down to 16MP. I enjoyed the one I rented...noise not much worse than a 5D3 from ISO 1600 through 6400. Above that it's significantly worse...below 1600, probably slightly worse. Unless you shoot wider than 85mm most of the time, (or at higher ISO most of the time) it's the one to get. Let's face it, it will be 2016 before Canon introduce a full frame sensor with similar (or slightly finer) pixel density to the 1D4. Sure, they'll introduce a full frame with very tiny pixels, but that won't be all that useful outside a studio, or for fast paced work, or for low light/fast work...and it will cost $9k or more. 

They have spread out all of their bodies so that even ones like the 1D4, that got discontinued, aren't really getting displaced. A good strategy.


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## pedro (Feb 19, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> DanielW said:
> 
> 
> > Viggo said:
> ...



So just imagine what the 5D4 will have for specs...That's about what I thought. If this sensor tech is quite improved compared to other crop cams, then I dare to dream of quite a decent improvment in the next few years. My next cam won't be a 5D4 (my 5D3 is a tremendous cam) but somewhere down the road there will be a 5D5 or whatever they'll call it by then...And I guess, there will be new sensor tech within it, that will just blow us away... 8) till then...happy shooting...Cheers, Pedro


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## Etienne (Feb 19, 2013)

pedro said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > DanielW said:
> ...


I hear ya. I'm very happy with my 5DIII but there's quite likely to be something very tempting about the 5D4 etc... else why would they bother making it.
However, it won't be too many more years before weight will become an important consideration for me. At which point I hope they would have made some major breakthroughs in small, light cameras.


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## daniela (Feb 19, 2013)

The traders are waiting for the new crop series (Nikon & Canon,..) as an cash-cow for x-mas business.
I read in the www that Nikon will release their new crop camera in summer 2013: In July in China or maybe in September in Berlin. Buyable soon after the release. 
So, Canon will release it in the same timeframe, otherwise they will miss X-mas business. 
In Germany the rumors are about 2100-2500 € (? 2 versions with/without GPS/WIFI???)

Then wait until spring and buy it.....


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## jrista (Feb 19, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> people always say the 7d range is a great wildlife camera,im sure it is, af, long reach etc. but surely image quality should be paramount? otherwise why dont all wildlife photographers carry 7d's?



Some people literally have piles of money to BURN.  Or, they are professionals....

Everyone who uses a 7D would probably prefer to have a pair of 1D X's, one with an 800mm f/5.6 L IS and another with the 600mm f/4 L IS II on a 2x TC, both sitting on a pair of Series 5 Gitzo tripods. But...not everyone has forty grand to blow on the gear of their dreams. To get the kind of reach you must have when using FF, you can achieve with something like the 7D and a 400mm or 500mm lens for FAR less cost.

I'd own the very kit I mentioned above, along with a 500mm f/4 L IS II, 300mm f/2.8 L IS II, both TCs, one of those nice new land rovers with the panoramic windows, etc. if I had the option. Sadly, my funds are far more limited than that, and I've wrestled with the idea of buying the 600mm f/4 L II for about 9 months now, and still can't really bring myself to pull the trigger.

Some people just have money to burn. For the rest, the 7D with its high-density sensor and amazing reach factor, and a 100-400mm lens, fills the role of "baby 1D" quite well.


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## pwp (Feb 19, 2013)

Wow, eleven pages on this already. 

For the past decade I have been a shameless fan of x1.3 APS-H sensor bodies, and as my very hard working 1D4 approached it's best-by date, the 7DII as described sounds like a giant killer. 

Like plenty of photographers the 7DII is a very high interest item. If the price & specs are as indicated I'll get two of them. This sort of performance plus the x1.6 APS-C crop means I won't have to go and spend $6K on a 1DX and $11K on a 400 f/2.8isII as my 300 f/2.8is will have the reach I need on APS-C.

-PW


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## ishdakuteb (Feb 19, 2013)

jrista said:


> jimjamesjimmy said:
> 
> 
> > people always say the 7d range is a great wildlife camera,im sure it is, af, long reach etc. but surely image quality should be paramount? otherwise why dont all wildlife photographers carry 7d's?
> ...



FAR stands for "Free After Rebate"... ;D


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## jrista (Feb 19, 2013)

ishdakuteb said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > jimjamesjimmy said:
> ...



HAH! I wish! Even a $1000 rebate on those top-end lenses still leaves you bleeding on the street from the kidney you had to sell...


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## jrh (Feb 19, 2013)

Sorry, a little off topic. Anyone know what Canon camera is in this below linked picture? Never seen one with the red piece by the hotshoe. Looks like a 7D is why I am posting on this thread. 

http://500px.com/photo/26318243

Update:Even more suspicious is the Canon logo has been removed, this has a pop-up flash and looks to be in new condition. Can't place the lens either the more I look at this - size wise looks like the 85mm 1.2 but the bulge appears different by the camera mount from the current 85,1.2???


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## bseitz234 (Feb 19, 2013)

jrh said:


> Sorry, a little off topic. Anyone know what Canon camera is in this below linked picture? Never seen one with the red piece by the hotshoe. Looks like a 7D is why I am posting on this thread.
> 
> http://500px.com/photo/26318243
> 
> Update:Even more suspicious is the Canon logo has been removed, this has a pop-up flash and looks to be in new condition. Can't place the lens either the more I look at this - size wise looks like the 85mm 1.2 but the bulge appears different by the camera mount from the current 85,1.2???



Does look like a 7d, dunno about the red piece or lack of "Canon" on the front of the pop-up. The ES-78 hood is the one that comes on the current 50 1.2, FWIW. I'm having a hard time telling if it's gripped / a 1-series body... kinda looks like it is, at least to my eye. And the protrusion of the eye cup looks farther than my 7d, which I understand is a 1-series luxury so you don't leave nose prints on the LCD. But the top buttons and mode dial are definitely the same as my 7d.


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## Efka76 (Feb 19, 2013)

I wish that the new 7D Mark II has these specs. However, in such case it would be even better than 5D Mark III as it would have WIFI and GPS installed. The only difference would be sensor. I really doubt that Canon would produce such camera...

Everybody was waiting for 6D and there were a lot of rumours about its specs, however, autofocus in this brand new camera is even worse than 3 year old 7D. Canon is able to produce good technology, however, they marketing department is screwing everything. I think that they will find a lot of ways how to cripple 7D Mark II and ask for it a significant premium comparing with old 7D.


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## jrista (Feb 19, 2013)

Efka76 said:


> I wish that the new 7D Mark II has these specs. However, in such case it would be even better than 5D Mark III as it would have WIFI and GPS installed. The only difference would be sensor. I really doubt that Canon would produce such camera...
> 
> Everybody was waiting for 6D and there were a lot of rumours about its specs, however, autofocus in this brand new camera is even worse than 3 year old 7D. Canon is able to produce good technology, however, they marketing department is screwing everything. I think that they will find a lot of ways how to cripple 7D Mark II and ask for it a significant premium comparing with old 7D.



Unlike the 6D, though, the 7D is a premium product. The 7D II would be better compared to the 5D III than the 6D. I'd say the 70D is more along the lines of the APS-C version of the 6D, and it would not be surprising to see the 70D with a gimped featureset.

I suspect the 7D II will get a pretty nice feature set. At the very least, it won't be any worse than the original 7D, with higher resolution, and probably better noise performance. Whether it will be much better than that is yet to be seen, however the 5D III specs did end up being pretty close to the CR2 rumors, so I'd expect the 7D II to be similar.


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## sagittariansrock (Feb 19, 2013)

sagittariansrock said:


> This is what will get my check book out:
> 1. Low noise at low ISO, high ISO capable sensor



Check



> 2. Same or higher frame rate



Check



> 3. Same or higher MP- but only if point 1 is satisfied



Check



> 4. Two CF card slots



Check (well two slots, anyway)



> 5. Same or better AF (5DIII level?)



Check



> 6. Same or better build quality



Most probably...

Ok, so I am ready with the check...


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## DanielW (Feb 19, 2013)

No word on built-in flash y/n?


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## wickidwombat (Feb 19, 2013)

pj1974 said:


> If these specs are real, I find this an impressive upgrade. As I own the 7D (which I love) - the increase in ISO performance (close to the 5DmkIII) is a particularly attractive feature for me. 61 AF pts and 10 FPS are definitely great, but not essential (I'm quite happy with the 7D's current 19 AF pts and 8 FPS).
> 
> WiFi and GPS are 'nice' but not necessary for my use. Even less important for me are the 'lots of video' features and the dual memory card slots (please keep it CF, I have some great CF cards I want to keep using - plus same battery please while we're at it!)
> 
> ...



agreed while i happily criticise the current crop sensor for being pretty poor (because I firmly believe it is substandard)
IF perhaps they use this new process thats been discussed to fix the image quality issues it will be very good.
personally i dont care about the whole "I want massive DR on a DxO score" that will no doubt be argued to death with tantrums aplenty.

Can a 1.6 crop sensor produce sharpness on a per pixel level closer to that of FF? I dont know, 1.3 crop can get a whole lot closer we know that and that the current 1.6 crops to date cant. thats all using the current tech though.

IF this new tech CAN close that gap its going to shake things up. and at that price I could definately see myself picking a couple of bodies up to replace the 5dmk2 me and my wife currently use in tandem with our mk3s
I've been itching to have a 5Dmk2 undergo a permanent IR conversion and with the price drop on the mk2s there is no point selling them.

I would hope they leave the battery the same though as that is absolutely key for us is having a pool of batteries for all our wedding cameras that can go into any body

On paper the specs look like a winner, they do look too good to be true though as on paper it risks taking sales away from the 5Dmk3  but I guess by the time this camera comes out the rumours of the 5Dmk4 will be running wild


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## jrista (Feb 19, 2013)

Jackson_Bill said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > candyman said:
> ...



I've never used AI Focus. I used to switch between single and AI Servo, however since getting the 7D I have always used back-button focus (AF-ON is decoupled from the shutter and only assigned to the back button). As such, I can "single shot" focus by pressing the AF button until focus is locked, then release. For tracking, I just press and hold. So, my camera is perpetually in a single AF mode, and I've never really tried anything else.

I've also never really understood what that third focus option was, or how it worked. Would it be better for non-tracking servo-type AF work?


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 19, 2013)

jrista said:


> I've never used AI Focus... I've also never really understood what that third focus option was, or how it worked. Would it be better for non-tracking servo-type AF work?



AI Focus is supposed to behave like One Shot, and if the camera thinks the subject has begun to move, it automatically switches to AI Servo. Sounds nice, in theory. How well does it work? Well...AI Focus is not an option on 1-series bodies, so you can probably draw some conclusions based on that.


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## jrista (Feb 20, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > I've never used AI Focus... I've also never really understood what that third focus option was, or how it worked. Would it be better for non-tracking servo-type AF work?
> ...



Ah...well, pass on that. I prefer my setup.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 20, 2013)

Sounds impressive if that is the 5D3 AF in there. Were it to match exmor at low iso then you'd really have a heck of a sick APS-C cam and I might even be wondering if the 24-70 II and FF even makes sense for me. 

(although perhaps a 6fps, 40MP, 5D4, with dual digic for full video read and high quality downscale, arrives in spring 2014??)


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 20, 2013)

insanitybeard said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > Looks great but I highly doubt it will come close to noise wise to a FF sensor especially with 6 more MP.
> ...



They might just mean comparing NR in cam jpgs.... 
There isn't that much room left to improve 7D mid-tone SNR, although there is some.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 20, 2013)

M.ST said:


> Canon cannot put the same AF-system like the 5D Mark III´s in an 7D Mark II for the mentioned price. So don´t expect it.



Why not and doesn't the sports/wildlife came need it? One of the key upgrdes the 7D could use is the real pro-level AF, the 7D still performed under many circumstances like an xxD (soccer for instance). They did raise the price compared to the original 7D, if not for the pro-level AF, then what?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 20, 2013)

candyman said:


> 24.1mp APS-C Sensor
> 10fps
> Dual Memory Card Slots
> 61 AF Points
> ...



7D points were too spread to serve as helpers. A single point was often too small and a cluster was way too large and grabby for certain field sports.

Why a dream list?? It is years later and costs more.


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## stoneysnapper (Feb 20, 2013)

In my opinion the 7D only needs improved AF and better high'ish iso performance, say 3200 to 6400. I was never convinced about its low iso performance but that might just have been my copy. I had issues with noise at 200 and 400 iso. Sent it back to Canon with that query and it seemed there was an improvement on return but I still opted to use iso's either side of those values if I could.

Additions of wifi and gps would be nice to have but basically an improvement on iq is the most important issue and that will come with improved AF and improved iso performance. I'd be happy enough with a marginal 10-20% uplift in megpixels but not at expense of iq.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 20, 2013)

jrista said:


> Don't underestimate the cost of an FF sensor. They are still almost 4x the area of an APS-C.



More like 2.56x. But even so that does make them cost more.


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## lastcoyote (Feb 20, 2013)

viggen61 said:


> lastcoyote said:
> 
> 
> > No that's the wrong way of looking at it.
> ...



why thank you. keep counting those pennies


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 20, 2013)

jrh said:


> Sorry, a little off topic. Anyone know what Canon camera is in this below linked picture? Never seen one with the red piece by the hotshoe. Looks like a 7D is why I am posting on this thread.
> 
> http://500px.com/photo/26318243
> 
> Update:Even more suspicious is the Canon logo has been removed, this has a pop-up flash and looks to be in new condition. Can't place the lens either the more I look at this - size wise looks like the 85mm 1.2 but the bulge appears different by the camera mount from the current 85,1.2???



Could it be a 7D with some red thingy stuck on by the flash shoe?
Nothing else out there for sale now that it could be.


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## RMC33 (Feb 20, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> jrh said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, a little off topic. Anyone know what Canon camera is in this below linked picture? Never seen one with the red piece by the hotshoe. Looks like a 7D is why I am posting on this thread.
> ...



Lens is def a 50 1.2. Camera.. who knows~


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## RichM (Feb 20, 2013)

I was all set to sell my 5d2 and get a 5d3, and then the latest rumor...argh. While I really "want" the 1dx, it is just hard to justify right now. About 80% of my shooting is sports - whatever is in season and I can get access to or that I'm hired to cover. Hockey is a big part of the mix.

I find I shoot sports far more with my 7d than the 5d2, mostly due to the "reach", but partly due to the better focus hit rate of the 7d. 8 fps is nice too.

But I find the 5d2 images significantly better, particularly in the 1600-2000 ISO range required at local hockey rinks. And like everyone else I've read, I find the 5d2 images (FF) to be noticeably more pleasing by all measures, and infinitely superior for portrait/landscape work. 

I've been holding out for the 7d2. If it is anywhere near the specs listed, with improved IQ at higher ISO, there will be no way for me to resist. I don't care that much about more MP, GPS, or video features. Improved IQ/ISO performance is tops on the list for me, followed by even better AF than the current good 7d. For me, you can leave video off. I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've shot video.

OK Canon - hurry up! It's been more than 3 years now. The 7d has more than paid for itself!


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## CatfishSoupFTW (Feb 20, 2013)

sounds almost better than a mrk3 but its asp-c D: 

too good to be true?


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## Ryan_W (Feb 20, 2013)

I don't get how it can feature "5dMkIII build quality" and GPS. Wasn't the reason for the partial weather sealing of the 6D that GPS needs a polycarbonate top for signal reception and can't use a full metal shell like the 1D?


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## Area256 (Feb 20, 2013)

facedodge said:


> The only complaint I ever heard from a 7D user was about their sensor. Now they get near 5D3 ISO ability. That is great! They also get a 25% bump in FPS, wifi, gps, upgraded AF system and a few other goodies like video features.
> 
> And who are these people complaining that this should have been the 5D3 or 6D? 10 FPS on a FF body is called the 1Dx.
> 
> I'm not even sure why I bother with the forum on this site.



+1 The specs look awesome as a high end crop sensor camera, and it's pointless to say this should have been the 6D or 5D3. Beyond the fact that from a marketing point of view it would make no sense to offer the 5D3/6D with all those specs and kill off the value of the 1Dx, it's fairly obvious that it's easier and cheaper to make smaller mirror-boxes, shutters, view finders, AF systems, and most importantly sensors, than it is to make full frame equivalents. So of course they can offer near 1Dx level performance for a lower price if they shrink the sensor. 

In the end it looks like it comes down to this:
Need great AF and fps for birding/sports on a budget get the 7D(2). 
Need great IQ on a budget, get the 6D/5D2.
Need great IQ and mid-range AF/fps get a 5D3.
Need (almost) everything and the kitchen sink and have lots of money, get a 1Dx.
Need maximal DR, 36MP, and huge RAW files, go to another forum.

Of course there is also want (different from need): I want 20fps, 40MP, 16 stops of DR, perfectly clean ISO 25600, 110 point all cross type AF, and under $2000


----------



## coreyhkh (Feb 20, 2013)

The Camera in that pic has what looks 1d body, there was a rumor that the next 7d would have a new body.

caint wait for this.


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## Don Haines (Feb 20, 2013)

Ryan_W said:


> I don't get how it can feature "5dMkIII build quality" and GPS. Wasn't the reason for the partial weather sealing of the 6D that GPS needs a polycarbonate top for signal reception and can't use a full metal shell like the 1D?



Not all metal is the same.... Some metals are really good at blocking RF and others just do a so-so job. Also, the antenna can be outside of the metal body and it can still be sealed.... Take a look at the 5D3.... it's a sealed camera, yet look at the shell.... more holes than swiss cheese. just because it is a metal body does not mean that it is electromagneticly sealed.

EDIT: and it can talk to a wireless flash....


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## expatinasia (Feb 20, 2013)

Very impressive rumoured specs indeed. Mind you August is a long way off...


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## Don Haines (Feb 20, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> jrh said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, a little off topic. Anyone know what Canon camera is in this below linked picture? Never seen one with the red piece by the hotshoe. Looks like a 7D is why I am posting on this thread.
> ...


Perhaps it's a prototype for a Canon camera using the RED sensor...... how's that for a wild guess???


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## Plamen (Feb 20, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > ISO Performance to get close to the 5D3
> ...



+1. To have the same shot noise as the 5D3, the new 7D must have QE of about 125% (if you believe the Sensorgen figures), which is absurd. The only thing the can and should do is to improve the read noise and to bring the QE in line with the recent sensors, Canon included.


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## verysimplejason (Feb 20, 2013)

If 7D2's ISO3200 IQ is better or almost the same as 7D's ISO400, I think I'll go for this rather than 6D.


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## jrista (Feb 20, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> Ryan_W said:
> 
> 
> > I don't get how it can feature "5dMkIII build quality" and GPS. Wasn't the reason for the partial weather sealing of the 6D that GPS needs a polycarbonate top for signal reception and can't use a full metal shell like the 1D?
> ...



Actually, the body being "swiss cheese" does not really have anything to do with whether it is capable of shielding EM radiation or not. Look up "Faraday Cage" to learn more about EM shielding. A Faraday cage or shield only works with conductive materials, and since magnesium is not really conductive (base charge of +2, so it is missing electrons, rather than having extra electrons it can "give up" as required for conductivity), it probably doesn't offer much at all in the way of shielding itself. The bulk of EM shielding in a DSLR is probably internal...simple "swiss cheese" plates and caps made out of conducting material with small holes to allow thermal venting around anything that might give off undesired EM frequencies (or behave poorly if it encounters random EM frequencies) are probably found all over the electronics inside the body.

The easiest demonstration of the concept is your microwave oven. Ever wonder why your brain doesn't fry while you watch your food cook? Ever wonder why the window into the microwave has that annoying "swiss cheese" screen behind it? Faraday cage. It saves your life every time you nuke something. ;P


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## Woody (Feb 20, 2013)

Wah... so much interest in 7D2. Is this interest real? Or is it all web talk? 

Anyway, I am only curious about the performance of image sensor on 7D2: both in terms of high ISO as well as low ISO. Rumors have it Sony is releasing a 20 MP APS-C camera soon with state-of-the-art dynamic range.

I have already replaced my entire APS-C collection with m43/FF stuff. Only a passing interest for me.


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## RMC33 (Feb 20, 2013)

jrista said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan_W said:
> ...



Check out Mu metal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu-metal

Used this in a prototype sensor device I worked on in college. Neat stuff. Nowhere near as effective as a faraday cage or granule/fibre based Isotropic field dispersion, but when you need to stick a sensor out to read something and not have th electronics cooked it worked *GREAT*. The granule/fibre system is neat because it can be a spray on material like a truck bed liner.


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## Don Haines (Feb 20, 2013)

jrista said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan_W said:
> ...



Very few pieces of consumer gear are (edit - fully ) shielded. Microwaves are one of the few... and even at that, it's a partial shield.... we can tell it's on from 500 feet away. I can pick up the photocopier two buildings away, can see PC's, can READ flatscreen monitors in the next room, etc etc etc.... If I get time tomorrow I should take a peek at my camera and see what it is broadcasting. It helps to have the next generation of http://www.crc.gc.ca/en/html/crc/home/research/satcom/signal_processing/spectrum_explorer/spectrum_explorer sitting in the next room......

I don't have to look up faraday cage, I work in one.

I showed the picture of the swiss cheese body because in earlier threads people were saying that you couldn't use wifi or gps on a metal body because you would have to make a hole in the metal and that would ruin the seal.... and wanted to show that a sealed body has a great many holes in the body.


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## scuba_steve (Feb 20, 2013)

Wow, this thread escalated quickly. 

Obviously haven't read everything, but my only gripe is that I can't buy this now. I can live with that price for those features. These specs, if accurate, are targeted right at me - a non-pro who takes A LOT of indoor sports photography...and who doesn't want to go to a 5D Mk3 and lose 1) the reach of my 70-200 f2.8 II or 2) my walk around EF-S 17-55 f2.8

Bring it on. Take my money!


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## jrista (Feb 20, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



There are plenty of consumer-grade devices with shielding. Cell phones, wifi/4G tablets, pretty much anything that transmits or receives wireless signals is shielded in some way, and there are a gazillion consumer-grade devices like that. A mobile phone with some internal shielding (although it is not always actually "swiss cheese"...sometimes it is just a solid metal plate):









Don Haines said:


> I showed the picture of the swiss cheese body because in earlier threads people were saying that you couldn't use wifi or gps on a metal body because you would have to make a hole in the metal and that would ruin the seal.... and wanted to show that a sealed body has a great many holes in the body.



Ah, well, misinterpretation on my part. I agree, punching a hole in the body for an antenna is nothing, and sealing it back up should be fairly easy if it was indeed done.


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## Don Haines (Feb 20, 2013)

jrista said:


> There are plenty of consumer-grade devices with shielding. Cell phones, wifi/4G tablets, pretty much anything that transmits or receives wireless signals is shielded in some way, and there are a gazillion consumer-grade devices like that. A mobile phone with some internal shielding (although it is not always actually "swiss cheese"...sometimes it is just a solid metal plate):
> 
> Ah, well, misinterpretation on my part. I agree, punching a hole in the body for an antenna is nothing, and sealing it back up should be fairly easy if it was indeed done.



That's ok...it also means that I did not explain myself well enough.... Just like above when I meant to say "fully shielded" but said "shielded". OOPS!

BTW, thanks for the chickadee advice... Picked up a blind... Ordered the cd book.....


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## jrista (Feb 20, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > There are plenty of consumer-grade devices with shielding. Cell phones, wifi/4G tablets, pretty much anything that transmits or receives wireless signals is shielded in some way, and there are a gazillion consumer-grade devices like that. A mobile phone with some internal shielding (although it is not always actually "swiss cheese"...sometimes it is just a solid metal plate):
> ...



Y/W!

The blind should really help! Sometimes I just spend time watching bird behavior, without taking photos. It is interesting when you just sit and get deeper into bird behavior...you start learning the quirks of each species, some of the meaning behind their little "conversations", etc. It can get pretty interesting, and sometimes quite hilarious. I've noticed that one of the house finches...and orange morph variety...has quite the attitude. When he shows up, he bullies all the juncos, sparrows, finches, and chickadees away and pretty much "owns" the feed box.  Funny creatures, birds! Although, when you boil it all down...not all that different from us. 

I really can't wait till spring hits, and I can try out some more interesting perches. The CD books are great, but I've only been able to apply a tiny amount of that knowledge so far.


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## LoneRider (Feb 20, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> LoneRider said:
> 
> 
> > But physics, are well, pretty much set in stone.
> ...



I completely agree with you. I am expecting much better IOS/Noise performance over the current 7D.

Already warned the other half of the budget committee 

On a side note, I am very happy with the current resolution. If there is a sensor choice to be made, PLEASE, pick the best sensor for reduced noise, color richness, and ISO performance. I do not need more pixels. But I really want much less noise!

If the noise is not significantly reduced, then, well, I guess the $2k can go to another hobby.


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## sanj (Feb 20, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> jrh said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, a little off topic. Anyone know what Canon camera is in this below linked picture? Never seen one with the red piece by the hotshoe. Looks like a 7D is why I am posting on this thread.
> ...



I cant really figure out why I am saying this but it seems like a cut paste photoshop job. It seems to me that camera was inserted in the photo in post...


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## gunship01 (Feb 20, 2013)

They could have made this a FF!!!


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## RMC33 (Feb 20, 2013)

gunship01 said:


> They could have made this a FF!!!



No... that misses the point entirely.


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## jrista (Feb 20, 2013)

LoneRider said:


> Freelancer said:
> 
> 
> > LoneRider said:
> ...



For all the detractors of being single, one thing I will say about it: *There is no budget committee.* 



LoneRider said:


> If the noise is not significantly reduced, then, well, I guess the $2k can go to another hobby.



Ditto, although in my case, I'd probably just pick up the 5D III. The IQ that I've seen from the 5D III so far is just phenomenal, and I never fail to be surprised by how much lower the noise is at ISO 1600, 3200, even 6400 than my current 7D. I plan to pick one up anyway, however if the 7D II doesn't impress on the sensor tech front, with low noise and all that...I'll just get the 5D III sooner.





RMC33 said:


> gunship01 said:
> 
> 
> > They could have made this a FF!!!
> ...



Completely. 

The entire point is REACH! GIVE ME MY REACH!! (Of course, of the BigMP camera actually does show up at 47mp and has a 6fps frame rate...that just might be the perfect camera!)


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## sanj (Feb 20, 2013)

jrista said:


> jimjamesjimmy said:
> 
> 
> > Rienzphotoz said:
> ...



No no no no. 7d is THE general purpose camera for MANY!!


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## aroo (Feb 20, 2013)

sanj said:


> No no no no. 7d is THE general purpose camera for MANY!!



7D is indeed THE camera. If Mark II keeps the wireless flash trigger and loses the pop-up... I wouldn't mind that too much.


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## RMC33 (Feb 20, 2013)

aroo said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > No no no no. 7d is THE general purpose camera for MANY!!
> ...



Fixed=)


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## Robert Welch (Feb 20, 2013)

What strikes me odd is if Canon makes this camera, it would mean their highest MP camera would be an APS-C format body, not full frame. That just doesn't sound logical, why would they do that? This camera would have a pixel density equal to a 61mp full frame camera, that is far beyond the resolving power of most lenses. I doubt this camera would really come anywhere close to the IQ of the 5DmkIII, that is just wishful thinking, at any ISO.


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## Woody (Feb 20, 2013)

Robert Welch said:


> This camera would have a pixel density equal to a 61mp full frame camera, that is far beyond the resolving power of most lenses. I doubt this camera would really come anywhere close to the IQ of the 5DmkIII



Doesn't this answer your own question?  

Nothing odd about APS-C having more pixels than FF. Happened several years ago when Canon's own compact cameras have more pixels than their APS-C DSLR offerings.


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## weixing (Feb 20, 2013)

Hi,


Robert Welch said:


> What strikes me odd is if Canon makes this camera, it would mean their highest MP camera would be an APS-C format body, not full frame. That just doesn't sound logical, why would they do that? This camera would have a pixel density equal to a 61mp full frame camera, that is far beyond the resolving power of most lenses. I doubt this camera would really come anywhere close to the IQ of the 5DmkIII, that is just wishful thinking, at any ISO.


 This DSLR is not aim at user who image quality is their highest priority... get FF DSLR for that. 

Basically, "Image Quality, Performance & Built and Price"... choose 2 of them:
1) If you want image quality and better price, performance & built will not be good -> Canon 6D
2) If you want image quality and performance & built, price will be high -> Canon 1Dx.
3) If you want performance & built and better price, image quality will not be as good -> Canon 7D.

Anyway, base on my "eyeball" compare, 6D is 2 stop better than 7D in noise performance, so if this DSLR can have 1 stop better than current 7D, I'll be happy.

Have a nice day.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 20, 2013)

aroo said:


> 7D is indeed THE camera.



The next Canon gear is often predicted to be THE camera or lens, but it doesn't work this way with Canon (or the leopard has changed his shorts): Either the price is extremely high or there are built-in problems, the 7d2 will not be a mini-1dx (i.e. 1dx with lower iso performance) for €2000 for sure. But this is a rumor site, so dreaming is encouraged


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 20, 2013)

jrista said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan_W said:
> ...



You know I have been feeling kind of strange every since I replaced that nasty window on my microwave with a clear pane of glass. This may explain a lot.


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## nicku (Feb 20, 2013)

On the paper the 7D2 looks good....
I'm sure will have improved ISO performance at base ISO ( 100-400)... but how about the sharpness of the images???

*Is really hard to maintain a good ISO performance AND sharpness on a 24MP APS-C sensor.*

Maybe Canon has started to use the new sensor manufacturing technology.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 20, 2013)

nicku said:


> Is really hard to maintain a good ISO performance AND sharpness on a 24MP APS-C sensor.



Imho these things have nothing to do with each other, unless the manufacturer decides to hide iso noise problems with forced noise reduction resulting in a sharpness loss - other than that iso performance is just a sensor feature, and so far Canon doesn't have the edge on the competition. 

Sharpness can be impaired by a strong aa filter against moire (like on the 5d3), but mostly it's dependent on the lens - and starting with 24mp many people with cheaper or older lenses will be up for a disappointment because their lens is outresolved by the sensor, for example my 17-40L wouldn't take much more than 18mp on aps-c.


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## BrandonKing96 (Feb 20, 2013)

Robert Welch said:


> What strikes me odd is if Canon makes this camera, it would mean their highest MP camera would be an APS-C format body, not full frame. That just doesn't sound logical, why would they do that? This camera would have a pixel density equal to a 61mp full frame camera, that is far beyond the resolving power of most lenses. I doubt this camera would really come anywhere close to the IQ of the 5DmkIII, that is just wishful thinking, at any ISO.


From past experiences, the a lot of people who buy a 7D aren't "pro's" etc etc. The most of them see that it's a professional *looking* camera so they target it. Then those who haven't been in the photography world for long would brag to their other friends (who don't know so much about photography as well) that their camera is "24.1 MP" which is what most consumers who are looking for a camera look for the higher megapixel. And those who do buy are mainly Asians (not sounding racist. I'm half-Asian) and Canon was rated as Asia's number 1 brand (well the several billboards I saw in the Philippines say so at least). With saying that it easily attracts newcomers to buy such a camera (especially the ones willing to spend $2000 and flash it around).

I honestly hope that the 24.1mp isn't true. I loved the 18mp all I really wish for is improved ISO performance, update the AF system, and I hope they keep the pop-up flash!


----------



## nicku (Feb 20, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> nicku said:
> 
> 
> > Is really hard to maintain a good ISO performance AND sharpness on a 24MP APS-C sensor.
> ...



...That I'm afraid. If Canon decide to use THE SAME 10 years old technology to make the sensor, than the only way to improve the ISO performance is to use forced noise reduction soft, and that will result in lots of sharpen loss.


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## jrista (Feb 20, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> nicku said:
> 
> 
> > Is really hard to maintain a good ISO performance AND sharpness on a 24MP APS-C sensor.
> ...



Ironically, a sensor that outresolves the lens is the ideal alternative INSTEAD of having an AA filter. The AA filter simply blurs high frequencies that can't be meaningfully resolved. If the sensor always outresolves the lens, then the AA filter is moot, and you should always be able to resolve more detail, even if the lens can't match the sensor...without EVER having to worry about aliasing of any kind.

That said...



Robert Welch said:


> What strikes me odd is if Canon makes this camera, it would mean their highest MP camera would be an APS-C format body, not full frame. That just doesn't sound logical, why would they do that? This camera would have a pixel density equal to a 61mp full frame camera, that is far beyond the resolving power of most lenses. I doubt this camera would really come anywhere close to the IQ of the 5DmkIII, that is just wishful thinking, at any ISO.



I think both of you guys are greatly underestimating the resolving power of Canon's new Mark II generation of lenses. According to my experiences renting many of them, they are unbelievably sharp...far sharper than necessary to completely resolve detail for the 18mp APS-C sensor. I wouldn't be surprised if they were good enough to resolve just enough detail for a 24mp APS-C (which, again, would be ideal from an AA filter standpoint...it wouldn't need to be all that strong), and plenty good enough for 40-50mp FF sensors.


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## K3nt (Feb 20, 2013)

If this spec list is even slightly right, count me in! 
I find the current 7D to be a brilliant general-purpose camera and this just seems to make it one notch better on all fronts.. 
Now let's wait for the actual image samples... this should be interesting. ;D


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## Hillsilly (Feb 20, 2013)

Now that Canon has pocketed all of the cash from 5Dii to 5Diii upgraders, they can now start releasing cameras with their revolutionary next generation sensor. Can't wait to see the discussion when DXO give it an "83".


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## AvTvM (Feb 20, 2013)

Whether I upgrade from my current 7D to the 7D II or to Fullframe mainly depends on:
*1. Sensor quality 
*Needs to have minimum +2 EV Hi ISO AND DR .. atv ALL ISOs, including 100. in RAW. Do not care abaout ooc jpeg
Also, I am perfectly fine with with 18MP on APS-C, do not need 24.
*2. AF system
*the closer to 1D-X the more likely I will take it  
If it falls short on count 1 or 2. I will definitely not buy it.

At the rumoured price tag I would also expect:
* FULLY functional Auto-ISO - exactly like in Nikon D800
* Wifi, GPS built in - but not "always on"!
* Pop-Up flash with optical wireless commander - as in 7D
* additionally a built in Canon RT-radio transmitter .. that chip is probably only a few square millimeters. so fits easily alongside a pop up flash. It is not -... one or the other!
* fps .. I do not need 10 ... 8 is plenty for me, I would even accept 6 if IQ would be improved 
* video .. don't ever use it, don't need it, don't want it. Buy a camcorder, canon makes nice ones.

IF I move to FF .. and Canon wants my money, it needs to be a 5D IV at the price of a Nikon D800, besting the Nikon's sensor in terms of DR.


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## Rienzphotoz (Feb 20, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> so the 6d is 'entry level' yet the 7d 2 is high end.
> doesnt want to make me buy the 6d anymore!


Is that how you make your buying decisions?


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## Rienzphotoz (Feb 20, 2013)

sanj said:


> No no no no. 7d is THE general purpose camera for MANY!!


+1 ... for 3 years 7D was my general purpose camera.
The fact that 15 pages of comments debating about the 7D II shows how popular this camera's predecessor is/was.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Feb 20, 2013)

RMC33 said:


> gunship01 said:
> 
> 
> > They could have made this a FF!!!
> ...


+1 ... if it is made into a FF, it will cost a small fortune and will be out of reach for many people like me.


----------



## Sith Zombie (Feb 20, 2013)

Canon! you jerks! when will this company get with it and release a camera people will buy??? For years I'v wanted a camera that prints photos on small slices of cheese, so I can view my photos and hand them out as tasty snacks. Nikon has cameras that print on a huge cheese range [CR] edam in the highlights and coloured cheddar in the shadows.
Canon, you are losing me as a customer....


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## BrandonKing96 (Feb 20, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> RMC33 said:
> 
> 
> > gunship01 said:
> ...


If they made this FF this would be a 1D


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 20, 2013)

Robert Welch said:


> This camera would have a pixel density equal to a 61mp full frame camera, that is far beyond the resolving power of most lenses.



Grrrrr....would people quit saying entirely wrong stuff like that please? First of all resolving power doesn't work like that. Second, even if it did the better lenses can already resolve up into the many hundreds of megapixels on full frame.


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## Lee Jay (Feb 20, 2013)

jrista said:


> I think both of you guys are greatly underestimating the resolving power of Canon's new Mark II generation of lenses. According to my experiences renting many of them, they are unbelievably sharp...far sharper than necessary to completely resolve detail for the 18mp APS-C sensor. I wouldn't be surprised if they were good enough to resolve just enough detail for a 24mp APS-C (which, again, would be ideal from an AA filter standpoint...it wouldn't need to be all that strong), and plenty good enough for 40-50mp FF sensors.



What? The difference in resolving power between 18MP and 24MP is nothing - 15%. The gap between these lenses and the 18MP sensor is more like 200%.


----------



## eyeland (Feb 20, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> You know I have been feeling kind of strange every since I replaced that nasty window on my microwave with a clear pane of glass. This may explain a lot.


Hmm, this reminded me, that recently, when I turn on our microwave oven, the kitchen transistor radio craps out... This event coincides with the oven timer moving at a factor 5 speed...
No structural defects are visible, but I seem to recall something about a hole turning into an antenna at a certain size? Better get a new microwave (or maybe a 5D between the two... or maybe a fully shielded FM radio?) 
Sry bout the off topic..
This thread has made me nervous for some odd reason


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## Happy viking (Feb 20, 2013)

To make everybody happy canon would have to make a 1 000 000 megapixel camera with a medium format sensor that can use EF lenses and can manage noise free images at iso 2 000 000, and it should cost below 100$. But thats just not how it works. 

I beleve the mk II will be a good supstitute for the 7D. And if it can deliver cleaner files at ISO 3200 i will buy one I love my 7D as a backup for the 5d mkIII


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## jimjamesjimmy (Feb 20, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> jimjamesjimmy said:
> 
> 
> > so the 6d is 'entry level' yet the 7d 2 is high end.
> ...



oh yeah i base most of my major purchases on tags given to products by people on forums!

what do you think?

iim at a place now where a higher end camera would be good for my photos,im just making the point that i dont see myself as an entry level camera kind of guy. obviously if it does its job thats fine, i just dont like that tag.


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## gecko (Feb 20, 2013)

Seems like a good model to re-introduce the eye-controlled AF.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 20, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> im just making the point that i dont see myself as an entry level camera kind of guy. obviously if it does its job thats fine, i just dont like that tag.



It's all relative. The Canon C100 is an 'entry-level' cinema camera, even though it costs about the same as the EOS 1D X flagship dSLR. 

The 6D *is* Canon's entry-level _full frame_ camera, but that doesn't make it an entry level camera any more than being the least expensive Ferrari makes the Ferrari California an 'entry-level' sportscar.


----------



## jimjamesjimmy (Feb 20, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> jimjamesjimmy said:
> 
> 
> > im just making the point that i dont see myself as an entry level camera kind of guy. obviously if it does its job thats fine, i just dont like that tag.
> ...



yeah all very true and you are right of course, dont you get that feeling though that people who are into cameras and photography look down on the 6d a bit? it doenst bother me but i get a that feeling a little, for some reason everyone loves the 7 series, or at least accept it.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 20, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> yeah all very true and you are right of course, dont you get that feeling though that people who are into cameras and photography look down on the 6d a bit? it doenst bother me but i get a that feeling a little, for some reason everyone loves the 7 series, or at least accept it.



There's something to what you say, and there's a historical basis. Previously, there were only two FF cameras - the 1DsIII and the 5DII. There wasn't really an 'entry level' per se, but everyone knew the 5DII was 'gimped' relative to the 1DsIII in every way but IQ, particularly in the AF department. Now, we have three current FF bodies, and the 6D is really closer to the 5DII in performance - AF is ok, but far short of the 5DIII. But 3 levels of product allows a conceptual separation and gives us an 'entry-level' in the category. The APS-C camera market has more levels, and the 7D is at the top of the heap.

Really, it's all about horses for courses. The 6D is a great camera that delivers top IQ for landscapes, portraits, basically things that don't move fast. The 7D is a great camera that delivers good IQ in decent light with static and fast-moving subjects. The 5DIII combines the performance of the 7D with the IQ of the 6D, making it a truly great all-around camera.


----------



## 2n10 (Feb 20, 2013)

Happy viking said:


> To make everybody happy canon would have to make a 1 000 000 megapixel camera with a medium format sensor that can use EF lenses and can manage noise free images at iso 2 000 000, and it should cost below 100$. But thats just not how it works.
> 
> I beleve the mk II will be a good supstitute for the 7D. And if it can deliver cleaner files at ISO 3200 i will buy one I love my 7D as a backup for the 5d mkIII



You still couldn't make everyone happy. The camera isn't free or they are not getting paid to take the camera and the specs are not ridiculously unbelievable. Besides some poeple are not happy unless they are bitching.


----------



## RMC33 (Feb 20, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > jimjamesjimmy said:
> ...



They are tools. I doubt people who are "into" photography look down on it. As I stated before the 6D is an amazing tool, nothing more and in all honesty if/when my 5d2 dies I will consider a 6d as a backup FF. Three reasons: Good price, Similar IQ and amazing low light performance to my 5d3.

On the 7D front.. I know at least 5 amateur sports photographers who got their careers off the ground using that body and two event/wedding photographers. I got 2.5 years, a 25 foot fall into a snow bank (survived), sunk to the bottom of a river in a pelican box for an hour, A cat who seems to think EVERY time I went to change a lens on the camera at home he HAD to be right there, dropped into a still warm fire pit on a hike I did and close to 215k shutter out of that body. The damn thing was a TANK and I squeezed every penny out of the body. It is at Canon right now being prepared for a proper 7D funeral... Shot into the sun and returned with a minor scuff on the body in perfect working order.


----------



## AprilForever (Feb 20, 2013)

RMC33 said:


> jimjamesjimmy said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



The 7D is indeed beast. Mine have been rained on, snowed on, sanded on, saltwater wave washed, and tortured in as many ways else as humanly possible. And they still survive! But, you have the award: "Most Damage done to a 7D"!


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## Don Haines (Feb 20, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > jimjamesjimmy said:
> ...


If I were into landscape photography, I would already have a 6D. Bang for the buck wise, I think it's the best deal out there for a Canon camera.... FF or APS-C. Anyone who looks down on you because of what gear you have is a snob who does not understand that the person holding the camera is FAR FAR FAR more important than the camera. The nicest digital picture that I have ever taken was with a 2.1 megapixel point/shoot camera... the important factors were the time, place, and composition.

I was recently driving home from Montreal around sunset with a friend who was taking pictures out of a moving car's window with an iPad as it started to get dark. When we got back and she showed me the pictures I was amazed... you could have shown them in a photographic exhibition. That's a real photographer!


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## jimjamesjimmy (Feb 20, 2013)

AprilForever said:


> RMC33 said:
> 
> 
> > jimjamesjimmy said:
> ...



i was stupidly wading shoulder deep in the calmest water in mexico with my canon 400d to take a picture of the flat water, i inevitably dunked it for a second after loosing my footing, completely under.luckily it was 40 degrees so i turned it off and left it in the sun for 2 days, thats was 2 years ago, still works fine!


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## RMC33 (Feb 20, 2013)

AprilForever said:


> RMC33 said:
> 
> 
> > jimjamesjimmy said:
> ...



I think my cat caused more damage in all honesty then anything else.


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## Robert Welch (Feb 20, 2013)

Lee Jay said:


> Robert Welch said:
> 
> 
> > This camera would have a pixel density equal to a 61mp full frame camera, that is far beyond the resolving power of most lenses.
> ...



Yes, but diffraction softness at this pixel density starts to become a problem, get up to f/5.6 or higher and you start loosing sharpness.


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## kubelik (Feb 20, 2013)

I agree with the others who have pointed out that people who are truly into photography don't give a rat's rear about what market segment their gear supposedly fits into.

before the 6D came along, the 5D Mark II was Canon's "entry-level" full frame camera. despite being "entry-level" in marketing-land, in photography-land the camera was a heavyweight champion and there are tons of working professionals who shot award-winning, top-flight work with that camera.

buying a camera should never come down to whether or not you want the top grade APS-C or the cheapest FF. it should be about what you want to shoot, how you want to do it, and which camera will do the most out of the things you want it to. if you're picking a camera because you're worried about how people will judge you for it, you need to work on your mental game and focus on what matters - the image.


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## bdunbar79 (Feb 20, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> jimjamesjimmy said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



If I were to go heavily into landscape photography I'd get a 1Ds Mark III and try for one around $2500. While I agree the person behind the camera is very important, with digital the equipment does begin to matter, especially with lens improvements and sensor technology rapidly developing, as opposed to the film era. I shoot exactly the same way with my 1DX as I did with a 1D4, and my photos are much better than before, and I have more keepers. The only difference is the camera.


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## Dick (Feb 20, 2013)

GPS & Wifi + build like 5D Mark III... Is that even possible? Doesn't 7D also have a pop up flash? Would be weird to drop it from Mark II.


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## gunship01 (Feb 20, 2013)

BrandonKing96 said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > RMC33 said:
> ...



Copy all.

My point being, Nikon threw out a monster FF at a price point (D800) I would have stood in line for. I am more than happy with my 7D, but if they can make the follow-on 7D for $2100, then surely the tech know-how is out there to enlarge the sensor to FF and sell for $2,500-$2,600 with the same specs stated in the original post. It is not a far stretch to do it IMO. 

Though if it is truely a simple issue of it being a 1D with a price of $6,000, they can keep it.


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## gunship01 (Feb 20, 2013)

Dick said:


> GPS & Wifi + build like 5D Mark III... Is that even possible? Doesn't 7D also have a pop up flash? Would be weird to drop it from Mark II.



Yes, the 7D does have a pop up flash. Proved useful this past weekend.


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## jrista (Feb 20, 2013)

Robert Welch said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Robert Welch said:
> ...



Diffraction is the most misunderstood concept in photography. The notion that diffraction is ever a "problem" is just flat out wrong. Just because diffraction _starts earlier_ with smaller pixels does *NOT *mean you are resolving less detail. The amount of detail resolved by the lens is fixed, and independent of the sensor. Assuming a 24mp sensor outresolves the lens while an 18mp sensor does not, no matter how you slice it, even when diffraction blur starts, the 24mp is and always will be resolving more detail than the 18mp. If you scale the 24mp sensor image down to 18mp image size without any additional processing, the 24mp will always be sharper (assuming focus, aperture, etc. were all configured identically between the two cameras.) 

Diffraction is the fault of the lens, not the sensor...both the 24mp and 18mp sensors are experiencing the exact same amount of softening due to diffraction...it is simply that the 18mp is PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE of actually demonstrating that fact, while the 24mp IS CAPABLE. A 22mp sensor would be somewhat capable of showing you that diffraction, however it would not be as good as the 24mp, and still, no matter how you slice it, the 24mp sensor (all other factors being equal) would STILL be resolving more detail, even if its slightly softer than the 22mp. Even if that additional detail just means the circumference of the blur circle is better defined.

I really have to emphasize this: In no way, ever, can diffraction produce worse results on a higher resolution sensor than a lower resolution sensor. EVER. Even if, at 100% crop, the detail looks a little soft on the higher resolution image, it will in the worst case be just as good as the lower resolution sensor on a size-normal basis, and in the majority case normalizing size will always make the higher resolution image look better than one taken with a lower resolution sensor.


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## 1255 (Feb 20, 2013)

if these are the specs, i'd happily pick one up


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## RMC33 (Feb 20, 2013)

gunship01 said:


> BrandonKing96 said:
> 
> 
> > Rienzphotoz said:
> ...



It is not a tech/know how thing. The 7D is what it is because of the crop factor that is SO very useful. I own a 7D and 5d3 + 200 f/2 and 400 f/2.8 II that I use for the majority of my shooting. I effectively have 4 focal lengths (200 320 400 and 640) that I find VERY useful with 2 bodies and 2 lenses. A FF 7D MkII would remove this from my stable and force me to buy TC's I don't want to own, swap up to a 1DIV (big consideration) or buy a gently used 7D (which canon does not want) to maintain that 1.6 factor. If you want a FF 7D, buy a 5DMk3. The specs (other then the FPS.. which I bet will be limited to 8 with AF) are very similar.


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## jimjamesjimmy (Feb 20, 2013)

RMC33 said:


> gunship01 said:
> 
> 
> > BrandonKing96 said:
> ...




maybe the ideal solution is to one day get rid of aps-c altogether and just have more compact cheaper long lenses that mortals can afford. cuts out a whole industry lol but would make things more focused.


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## tortilla (Feb 20, 2013)

jrista said:


> I really have to emphasize this: In no way, ever, can diffraction produce worse results on a higher resolution sensor than a lower resolution sensor. EVER.



I still doubt that 24 MPixel will deliver higher resolution at f/8 and smaller apertures than 18 MPixel. But I agree, it won't be worse either. 

The biggest advantage of high MPixel sensors is IMO that they deliver more information that can be used for denoising and getting cleaner images at high ISO.


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## Don Haines (Feb 20, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> maybe the ideal solution is to one day get rid of aps-c altogether and just have more compact cheaper long lenses that mortals can afford. cuts out a whole industry lol but would make things more focused.



But that's the reason for APS-C in the first place....


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## Dick (Feb 20, 2013)

jimjamesjimmy said:


> maybe the ideal solution is to one day get rid of aps-c altogether



Doesn't sound too sound. Business is business. I bet that if Canon wanted to, it could sell FF bodies for less. Selling APS-C bodies as the cheap alternative is a great way to make additional money out of FF bodies. Focusing purely on larger sensors could actually lower profits. Most cash is surely made with the cheap stuff anyway.


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## RMC33 (Feb 20, 2013)

As Don stated:



Don Haines said:


> jimjamesjimmy said:
> 
> 
> > maybe the ideal solution is to one day get rid of aps-c altogether and just have more compact cheaper long lenses that mortals can afford. cuts out a whole industry lol but would make things more focused.
> ...



APS-C has saved me about $15000 in not having to buy a 300 f/2.8 and 600 f/4 to fill those gaps on FF, made my gear bag two lenses lighter while working and been a solid workhorse/survive all the stupid things I do on a daily basis. 

Edit: Until last weak when my 7D died.


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## jrista (Feb 20, 2013)

tortilla said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > I really have to emphasize this: In no way, ever, can diffraction produce worse results on a higher resolution sensor than a lower resolution sensor. EVER.
> ...



Once you are below the DLA of the lower-resolution sensor, you won't get any more "resolution", however the detail resolved should still look better on the higher resolution sensor, as it will be more finely delinted. Beyond the DLA, you experience _*diminishing returns*_...that means things could still look better, however as you approach the minimum aperture of the lens, the improvements of the higher resolution sensor over the lower resolution sensor will diminish (not disappear, just diminish).

All of the current APS-C sensors are diffraction-limited by f/8, however diffraction is still so low at that point that it rarely matters unless you really need to resolve something with obscenely fine detail (i.e. you want to resolve the individual barbules on each barb of a birds feathers at a distance of a few feet...you are going to need something closer to a PERFECT f/4 or wider lens along with the highest resolution sensor you can possibly get your hands on...24.1mp would be pretty excellent in that situation.)


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## Sporgon (Feb 20, 2013)

gunship01 said:


> Dick said:
> 
> 
> > GPS & Wifi + build like 5D Mark III... Is that even possible? Doesn't 7D also have a pop up flash? Would be weird to drop it from Mark II.
> ...



If it has GPS and WiFi won't part of it have to be plastic - so surely build quality would be more like 6D ? 

If it does and the plastic proportion is more subtle then the intent with the 6D becomes more clear 

Personally if it was an APS 5D mk3, all alloy with no _Horrible cheap weak plastic_ pop up flash I'd be very tempted !


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## jrista (Feb 20, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> gunship01 said:
> 
> 
> > Dick said:
> ...



It is also possible to just stick the antennas outside of the metal body, with the rest of the electronics that support GPS and WiFi inside the body. The build quality need not suffer to include GPS and WiFi.


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## RMC33 (Feb 20, 2013)

jrista said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > gunship01 said:
> ...



Canon already does this with their GPS transmitters. GP-E1/2 sit outside the body and work just great.


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## jrista (Feb 20, 2013)

saltabilar said:


> I have read this thread with interest, I have use Canon cameras the 10 last years
> My own feelings is that this is some kind of a wish list.
> Where can I find some hard facts about what is going on with Canon and theirs new sensor technology or are the using the same old technology but improved as good as it get?
> 
> Salta bilar// 7d 5dmk2 5dmk3



CanonRumors is the best place, really. Anything with a CR2 is pretty good information. The only time you will get better information is when CR starts posting CR3 rated rumors, which are, for all intents and purposes, fact.


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## Dick (Feb 20, 2013)

jrista said:


> It is also possible to just stick the antennas outside of the metal body, with the rest of the electronics that support GPS and WiFi inside the body. The build quality need not suffer to include GPS and WiFi.



The build quality would definitely suffer if built that way. Having fragile parts that are not protected does not sound like something I'd personally want as it somewhat makes the durable body pointless. External transmitters are for that kind of purposes and if they break, you don't necessarily need to get your camera body fixed.


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## tortilla (Feb 20, 2013)

jrista said:


> Once you are below the DLA of the lower-resolution sensor, you won't get any more "resolution", however the detail resolved should still look better on the higher resolution sensor, as it will be more finely delinted. Beyond the DLA, you experience _*diminishing returns*_...that means things could still look better, however as you approach the minimum aperture of the lens, the improvements of the higher resolution sensor over the lower resolution sensor will diminish (not disappear, just diminish).
> 
> All of the current APS-C sensors are diffraction-limited by f/8, however diffraction is still so low at that point that it rarely matters unless you really need to resolve something with obscenely fine detail (i.e. you want to resolve the individual barbules on each barb of a birds feathers at a distance of a few feet...you are going to need something closer to a PERFECT f/4 or wider lens along with the highest resolution sensor you can possibly get your hands on...24.1mp would be pretty excellent in that situation.)



I'm still not quite convinced. So I took a image with a 7D and a 50 mm 1.8 II, aperture f/11. I scaled it down to 13.5 Mpixel and up again to 18 Mpixel. Then I compared it to the original image. Even with pixelpeeping I can't recognize that the original has better image quality.


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## Don Haines (Feb 20, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> gunship01 said:
> 
> 
> > Dick said:
> ...



The body is made of magnesium.

Air has a permeability of 1.000 000 37
Magnesium has a permiability of 1.000 12
Steel and iron are around 100
Mu-Metal, used for electromagnet shielding, is around 20,000 to 50,000

Think of permeability as the materials ability to react to (attenuate) radio signals.

In other words, the magnesium body is for all practical purposes, transparent to electromagnetic waves (radio)..... and even if it wasn't, there are dozens of holes through the metal shell.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 20, 2013)

gunship01 said:


> They could have made this a FF!!!



They did.... 1DX (sort of, granted that is a bulky beast and lacks the GPS/wifi and, perhaps, a new-process sensor).

Anyway the point of the 7D is to get huge reach, what would 24MP do vs 5D3 for reach?


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## jrista (Feb 20, 2013)

tortilla said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Once you are below the DLA of the lower-resolution sensor, you won't get any more "resolution", however the detail resolved should still look better on the higher resolution sensor, as it will be more finely delinted. Beyond the DLA, you experience _*diminishing returns*_...that means things could still look better, however as you approach the minimum aperture of the lens, the improvements of the higher resolution sensor over the lower resolution sensor will diminish (not disappear, just diminish).
> ...



Your test strategy is fundamentally flawed, though. The proper test would be to take a photo with the 7D @ 18mp, and with something with a lower-resolution sensor in the same form factor (such as a 450D or 500D, which have 12.2mp and 15.1mp APS-C sensors respectively.) Comparing the 7D sample to the other camera, at both 100% crop and on a scale-normal basis, should clearly demonstrate the superiority of the 7D. However, that would still be insufficient unless you use an appropriate lens. 

The 50/1.8 II is a decent lens, but by no means a perfect lens even by past standards. The MTF chart for that lens actually indicates its IQ is only in the "so-so" department for the high resolution sensors of today. You really need the majority of the MTF above the 0.8 mark to be "good", and great lenses relative to todays high density APS-C sensors need to be above the 0.9 mark to be "excellent". Anything less, and a sensor like the 7D will definitely show the weakness of the lens (something I struggle with every day...the 7D outresolves even my 100-400mm L by a fair amount...only the new Mark II primes and a couple of the zooms outresolve the 7D, but when they do, WOW do they bring out the most in that camera!) Even my 50 f/1.4 USM is incapable of resolving anywhere near enough detail for the 7D...pretty much every shot is somewhat soft, even at the optimal aperture with the best AFMA setting.

The 7D is already a very high resolution sensor, so to actually realize the benefit of having a high resolution sensor, you would need to perform that test with a better lens. Something along the lines of the new 24-70 L II, which has a phenomenal MTF, should be capable of outresolving the 7D, which would allow you to set the aperture to the DLA of the 7D on both cameras, and compare the results. I'd bet good money the 7D would definitely produce far better results than the 450D/500D if you used a higher quality lens, at pretty much any aperture below f/22. By f/22, diffraction would probably diminish the benefits of the 7D's superior resolution by such a degree that you wouldn't see any measurable difference on a normalized basis.


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## Sporgon (Feb 20, 2013)

@Don Haines - so this would suggest the 6D is half plastic to further define it from the 5D, in the way the 60D was plastic to further separate it from 7D. 

The 7D is actually quite a unique camera - it sits above any other APS in terms of it's professional intent. It wouldn't surprise me if the new 7D moves even further up the 'pro' ladder in the way the 5D Mkiii has. If so you can kiss good bye to the pop up flash. On CR there has been suggestion the new 70D will return to the mag alloy body. This would fit will the new 7D moving up. Unfortunately that would inevitably mean a price hike.


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## RGomezPhotos (Feb 20, 2013)

Wow! 18 Pages of this discussion! You know these specs are want people want or hate! ;D


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## Don Haines (Feb 20, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> @Don Haines - so this would suggest the 6D is half plastic to further define it from the 5D, in the way the 60D was plastic to further separate it from 7D.
> 
> The 7D is actually quite a unique camera - it sits above any other APS in terms of it's professional intent. It wouldn't surprise me if the new 7D moves even further up the 'pro' ladder in the way the 5D Mkiii has. If so you can kiss good bye to the pop up flash. On CR there has been suggestion the new 70D will return to the mag alloy body. This would fit will the new 7D moving up. Unfortunately that would inevitably mean a price hike.



I think it's cheaper to make it out of plastic, but not significantly so. From a marketing perspective, saying model X has a metal body does differentiate it to the consumer and regardless of the relative benefits of plastic or magnesium, metal is perceived as better so the consumer will pay more.

Another way of looking at it might be "if for an extra $10 we give it a metal body that's as strong or as light as the plastic body the consumer will pay an extra $100 for it". You could perceive this as the buyers of high end cameras getting ripped off


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## Marsu42 (Feb 20, 2013)

jrista said:


> CanonRumors is the best place, really. Anything with a CR2 is pretty good information.



Are we reading the same site  ? Imho the CR forum is nice because a lot of knowledgeable photogs are around, but CR0 is a joke, CR1 is "your guess is as good as mine", CR2 is "that doesn't sound *that* improbable" and CR3 is "I've been told about tomorrow's press release" ... 

... Canon is simply very secretive and doesn't leak anything, and except for some posts of beta testers there is no telling what will be next - as a rule of thumb if something appears to make sense from an enthusuast's perspective it most likely isn't what Canon will do.


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## thepancakeman (Feb 20, 2013)

I don't have anything new to add, but rumor has it (haha!) that Canon is not entirely oblivious to items on this website. So with that being said, I'll throw my hat in the ring. 

It's simple for me: if it has better low and high ISO performance than my current 7D, I'll buy it. If it does not, I won't.


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## jrista (Feb 20, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > CanonRumors is the best place, really. Anything with a CR2 is pretty good information.
> ...



I'm not talking about the forums....its pretty chaotic in here. I mean CanonRumors the site. I've only seen ONE instance since I've read this site where a CR3 did not come true, and even then, only the date was wrong, everything else was right. When the CR2's start coming, they are usually the "most accurate thing you'll find". Also, CR2 has a certain connotation to it...they come from KNOWN CR sources who have been known to provide good information in the past. That is certainly better than "it doesn't sound *THAT* improbable", but also certainly not as good as "I think this is about as close to fact as your going to get until the darn thing hits the shelves." I am not saying they are 100% accurate, they are still just rumors after all...just that of all the sources of information about Canon gear on the net, I don't think there is a _better _place than CanonRumors. (And that was, after all, the question. )

If you want the best information *available*, CR (the site, not necessarily the forum) is pretty much the place. Until a product is actually released, there really are no "facts".


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## CanNotYet (Feb 20, 2013)

Dick said:


> The build quality would definitely suffer if built that way. Having fragile parts that are not protected does not sound like something I'd personally want as it somewhat makes the durable body pointless. External transmitters are for that kind of purposes and if they break, you don't necessarily need to get your camera body fixed.


Well, if they can make mobile phones shock proof with WiFi and 3/4G antennas in a much smaller body, it should be definately possible in the brick that is a 7D(2). 

How hard can it be?


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## Marsu42 (Feb 20, 2013)

jrista said:


> If you want the best information *available*, CR (the site, not necessarily the forum) is pretty much the place.



Ok, I can subscribe to that view 



thepancakeman said:


> I don't have anything new to add, but rumor has it (haha!) that Canon is not entirely oblivious to items on this website.



Where did you get this rumor from - CR :-> ? I think the decisive Canon people are in Japan and a small circle of execs (like the CEO in a recent interview) and maybe some tech people, and I would be very surprised if any information from places like this would reach them - most likely they rely on their internal marketing studies and some direct feedback from cps professionals and beta testers.


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## DanielW (Feb 20, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Where did you get this rumor from - CR :-> ? I think the decisive Canon people are in Japan and a small circle of execs (like the CEO in a recent interview) and maybe some tech people, and I would be very surprised if any information from places like this would reach them - most likely they rely on their internal marketing studies and some direct feedback from cps professionals and beta testers.



How harmful would it be for them to pay a small team of photo nerds to surf the web all day and find out what buyers want?
(Heck, I'd do it for free if they let me try some prototypes every now and then.)


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## Lee Jay (Feb 20, 2013)

jrista said:


> Robert Welch said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



Oh, I don't know, DOF is up there pretty good too!



> The notion that diffraction is ever a "problem" is just flat out wrong.



Diffraction is always a factor in resolving power. When I'm shooting planetary photography, diffraction tends to be the driving factor, and it most certainly is a problem. I wouldn't have just upgraded from a 5" to an 11" scope if it weren't!



> Just because diffraction _starts earlier_ with smaller pixels does *NOT *mean you are resolving less detail.



"Just because diffraction _starts earlier_ with smaller pixels does *NOT *mean you are resolving less detail."

I just thought that was important enough for a repeat.



> I really have to emphasize this: In no way, ever, can diffraction produce worse results on a higher resolution sensor than a lower resolution sensor. EVER.



That one as well:

"I really have to emphasize this: In no way, ever, can diffraction produce worse results on a higher resolution sensor than a lower resolution sensor. EVER."


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## unfocused (Feb 20, 2013)

DanielW said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Where did you get this rumor from - CR :-> ? I think the decisive Canon people are in Japan and a small circle of execs (like the CEO in a recent interview) and maybe some tech people, and I would be very surprised if any information from places like this would reach them - most likely they rely on their internal marketing studies and some direct feedback from cps professionals and beta testers.
> ...



Very harmful. 

The data would not be simply useless, it would be misleading garbage. 

Market research is a science. Canon has decades of hard data based on its sales figures. In addition, everyone who fills out a warranty card goes into a data base that Canon can mine for additional information. They scour competitors annual reports and sales figures, just as the competitors scour theirs. 

The data is supplemented with surveys that adhere to strict standards to assure that they are polling a representative sample of customers. Those surveys are no doubt conducted on every continent to study trends in each region. They also likely use focus groups of key customer subsets to flesh out the data. They use field testers to try products out in the real world and give them feedback. 

A basic rule of any polling is that you never, never use subjects that self-select. They are notoriously unreliable and not representative of the larger universe. Just one tiny example shows how fruitless it would be: there is zero ability to match up the data on this website with actual buying patterns. There is nothing that could assure Canon that the whining, trolling and fantasizing that goes on on internet forums has any relationship whatsoever to sales.

At most, they may employ robots to search the internet for key words and associations. The best you can hope for, is that if Canon finds a spike in the internet on some word string, like: "5DIII, Weak Focus, Low Light " they might investigate it further to see if there is a trend or problem developing. 

But, it is crazy to think Canon or any other manufacturer is going to waste valuable resources trolling internet forums.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 20, 2013)

DanielW said:


> How harmful would it be for them to pay a small team of photo nerds to surf the web all day and find out what buyers want?


Because people posting in forums are not necessarily buyers, or at least there is hardly any connection between internet opinion and sales, the latest example is the underwhelming but popular 6d. 

What happens if you ask buyers about what they want you can as well file for bankruptcy right away like when Homer's brother let him design a car: http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/The_Homer


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## Plamen (Feb 20, 2013)

Lee Jay said:


> I really have to emphasize this: In no way, ever, can diffraction produce worse results on a higher resolution sensor than a lower resolution sensor. EVER.
> 
> That one as well:
> 
> "I really have to emphasize this: In no way, ever, can diffraction produce worse results on a higher resolution sensor than a lower resolution sensor. EVER."



Right. I do not know why this obsession with diffraction and not with lens aberrations, for example. The resolution of a system depends on several factors, and if you improve one of them, you improve the final image. At what point you get "diminished returns" is a philosophical question.


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## Radiating (Feb 20, 2013)

Just an FYI regarding all this talk of too much resolution.

Tests have shown that even the best APS-C lenses are limited to around 20 megapixels of resolution, regardless though there are some benefits to more pixels, namely:

Better de-mosaicing, ideally each pixel in a photo should have 4 pixels behind it (1 red 2 green and 1 blue) as current photos are done with false color and the bayer pattern naturally limits resolution to around 90% of what it should be.

Less interference from anti-aliasing filters, this is actually a huge deal and can increase lens resolution by 20%.

Better color gradiation and tones.

The disadvantage to more resolution is bigger file sizes (less of an issue with S_RAW (which Nikon inexplicably doesn't have).

24 Megapixels is the perfect resolution for an APS-C camera and 28 megapixels is the perfect resolution for a full frame camera with current lens designs.


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## Plamen (Feb 20, 2013)

saltabilar said:


> you tell me that this forum is the best place , but no one have answerered my question, is this a wish list or is it a reality when it comes to Canons sensors? 24Mp at a APS size and what is the signal noise ratio with current technology and the dynamic range compared to others



See this.


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## jrbdmb (Feb 20, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> DanielW said:
> 
> 
> > How harmful would it be for them to pay a small team of photo nerds to surf the web all day and find out what buyers want?
> ...


And another example highlighted above. Only a small number of people in Canon know whether the 6d is "popular" as far as meeting expected sales figures. And a similar small number know whether the "underwhelming" view of the 6D is just from crazed internet forums or actually the view of the camera buying public at large.

For example, I think the 60D was under-speced, with the deletion of MFA a big mistake. I also think the 6D should have had an AF system at least as good as the 60D. But unless someone at Canon shows unusual candor, we'll never know if they agree with these points, or if they even acknowledge that these issues affected sales of the cameras.


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## Lee Jay (Feb 20, 2013)

Radiating said:


> Tests have shown that even the best APS-C lenses are limited to around 20 megapixels of resolution,



Point me to those tests and I'll show you why they're wrong.


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## Plamen (Feb 20, 2013)

> what is it that I should look after?



The QE figures determine the shot noise per unit area. A sensor with 42% QE, for example will have 1/2 stop better noise performance than one with 30%, at base ISO, at least. (Ratio of 2 is one stop). This is valid for comparisons within the same format.

Then there is data for the read noise, this determines the deep shadow noise.


> I know Bob,he is a friend of mine , who has this site.



I read some of his posts elsewhere, he is a smart and funny guy.


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## Plamen (Feb 20, 2013)

saltabilar said:


> yes I know what QE is , and ?



You asked about comparisons to others. They are a lot of them there. The newest Canon FF sensors are comparable to the Nikon ones in terms of QE. The current (a bit old already) crop sensors are at 40% or so, so they lag a bit behind. What I expect is to see a new crop sensor with QE around 55% or so. This would be about 1/2 stop better than the current 7D. 

I have no idea what to expect about the read noise.


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 20, 2013)

jrbdmb said:


> Only a small number of people in Canon know whether the 6d is "popular" as far as meeting expected sales figures. And a similar small number know whether the "underwhelming" view of the 6D is just from crazed internet forums or actually the view of the camera buying public at large.



Since it is obvious we don't have that data (I guess even Canon doesn't have a representative overview on the worldwide opinion in different buyer segments on the 6d) I was talking from my personal perspective - and according to the initial reactions to the 6d (mine included) there shouldn't be anyone out there buying it, but obviously a lot of people are nevertheless (me included ).



jrbdmb said:


> For example, I think the 60D was under-speced, with the deletion of MFA a big mistake.



I also though so but stood corrected - removing afma from the 60d was a very smart move by Canon, lots of people bought the more expensive 7d.


----------



## jrista (Feb 21, 2013)

Lee Jay said:


> Radiating said:
> 
> 
> > Tests have shown that even the best APS-C lenses are limited to around 20 megapixels of resolution,
> ...



I'd like to see these tests as well, Radiating. The Nikon D3200 is already a 24mp APS-C, and it produces some amazing quality, and its pixels are in the 3 micron range. Small form factor sensors have pixels under 2 microns now. 

If one wants to talk about finite limits on pixel size, I'd offer around 800nm, or 0.8µm. Any smaller than that, and you are going to start clipping frequencies of visible light (starting in the deep reds)...but we are a LONG way off from sub-micron pixels in larger form factor sensors.


----------



## DanielW (Feb 21, 2013)

unfocused said:


> DanielW said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



It does make sense, indeed.
Thanks for the great answer!


----------



## DanielW (Feb 21, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> DanielW said:
> 
> 
> > How harmful would it be for them to pay a small team of photo nerds to surf the web all day and find out what buyers want?
> ...


----------



## Hillsilly (Feb 21, 2013)

DanielW said:


> How harmful would it be for them to pay a small team of photo nerds to surf the web all day and find out what buyers want?
> (Heck, I'd do it for free if they let me try some prototypes every now and then.)



Hey Canon, I want a 1DXs - a 45mp full frame camera with 1DX performance. Will happily pay up to $1500. Don't forget to make it EF-S compatable in crop sensor mode. 

And how's that Eos-Me going with built in EVF and zippy AF? I assume we've got some new lenses coming out soon? 

PS - Where can I send my invoice for market research work?


----------



## DanielW (Feb 21, 2013)

Hillsilly said:


> DanielW said:
> 
> 
> > How harmful would it be for them to pay a small team of photo nerds to surf the web all day and find out what buyers want?
> ...



I guess I'm learning it the hard way... ;D


----------



## jrista (Feb 21, 2013)

saltabilar said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > saltabilar said:
> ...



If I had to guess where the information came from, I would say that, assuming an Aug. 2013 release date is legit, it is one of probably several potential specs, based off of a prototype someone has been using in the field. Whether these are the specs that actually end up in the retail version, no one can say...not until someone actually has a legit retail version in their hands or breaks and NDA.

I wouldn't necessarily say this is just a wish list. If it was CR0/1, definitely a wish list, but since it is a CR2, it could be legitimate information based on pre-release spec sheets, a closed-room session a known source had with canon reps, information based on a prototype version out in the field (potentially second-hand, so the information could be a bit more sketchy if that's the case), etc. 

I wouldn't go around stating these specifications as fact, but I wouldn't simply discount them off-hand either. It's a rumor, and its a pretty decent one...the best we have at the moment. 

As for the sensor's ISO range, noise quality, dynamic range, etc....no real solid rumors on that yet, so no one can really say. If the sensor is fabricated on Canon's past 500nm process, I wouldn't get my hopes up all that much. You can only push a process so far before you hit a brick wall. I am not really sure what value a 24mp APS-C sensor would have on a 500nm process...the circuitry would consume so much die space relative to the photodiode itself, I can't imagine such a sensor would perform very well in any context. With a 180nm process, that cuts the transistor size down to nearly 1/3rd, leaving you with far more room to dedicate to the photodiode, making APS-C sensors with pixels smaller than 4 microns more realistic.


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 21, 2013)

jrista said:


> I wouldn't go around stating these specifications as fact, but I wouldn't simply discount them off-hand either. It's a rumor, and its a pretty decent one...the best we have at the moment.



The question is how the internal Canon decision hierarchy is - it'd be interesting to know, but of course no one will tell. I guess the final say on the gear to be produced is either made by accounting (estimated profit, i.e. mainly production cost flavored with some marketing thoughts) and/or by the top execs if it's a strategic decision.

The recent interview about the 7d2 might let us hope that Canon tries to make a big splash this time to make up for the recent lack of user's enthusiasm, so the 7d2 might really come out with a lot of features at a "reasonable" price - but then again it might just have been a decoy to gain time because Canon is behind in the sensor race.


----------



## mdrewpix (Feb 21, 2013)

FunPhotons said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > FunPhotons said:
> ...



Sorry, but that kind of thinking is just foolish. How much more detail do you really need? And I said need, not want. We already have cameras that out-perfom the hallowed slide films of yore. And this constant foolishness with the Nikon vs Canon debate has to stop. If you can't shoot decent pictures with what's already available then the problem is not with which camera you're using.


----------



## jrista (Feb 21, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't go around stating these specifications as fact, but I wouldn't simply discount them off-hand either. It's a rumor, and its a pretty decent one...the best we have at the moment.
> ...



I really can't say how Canon decides what products to bring to market. I imagine it is a rather complex process with far too many "moving parts". I work at a very large, established company that develops online educational platforms. From the outside things look very simple and cohesive, but decision making processes are extremely complex, usually involve hundreds of people, and take a very long time.  We have an 80-step process that must be followed to patent anything, that spans at least 7 departments. 

Given how large and established Canon is...I'd imagine their decision making processes are fairly similar, at least on the complexity front. Although them being a Japanese company, things are probably more orderly and refined (something the Japanese excel at, where as American companies tend to get mired too deeply into political infighting, empire building, petty squabbling, etc.)


----------



## 20Dave (Feb 21, 2013)

jrista said:


> I really can't say how Canon decides what products to bring to market. I imagine it is a rather complex process with far too many "moving parts". I work at a very large, established company that develops online educational platforms. From the outside things look very simple and cohesive, but decision making processes are extremely complex, usually involve hundreds of people, and take a very long time.  We have an 80-step process that must be followed to patent anything, that spans at least 7 departments.
> 
> Given how large and established Canon is...I'd imagine their decision making processes are fairly similar, at least on the complexity front. Although them being a Japanese company, things are probably more orderly and refined (something the Japanese excel at, where as American companies tend to get mired too deeply into political infighting, empire building, petty squabbling, etc.)



I think that they need to watch out for too many lines cropping up (no pun intended) that makes the buying decision difficult. In the DSLR world, it used to be an easy decision:
xxxD (e.g. 450D, aka Rebel) as the entry level DSLR
1Dx as the professional DSLR
xxD as a little of both worlds

The clear distinctions in terms of price point and functionality made my choice of the 20D very easy.

Now I'm pulling out the precious few hairs that I have left trying to figure out what to get as an upgrade for my aging 20D. I'll never earn a dime with my photos; my preferred subjects are wildlife/birds, but I would love to try landscapes as well. I was thinking 7D for a while, but longing after a 5DIII. I have been holding out hope that the 5DIII would reach a price point where I can mention it to my better half with a straight face. It's starting to get there, but now the 7DII is on the horizon, so I may wait to see what it looks like in terms of specs/price. I keep dragging my feet, and Canon is missing at least one sale (mine) as a result. 

[My prediction - I'll buy a 5DIII towards the end of the year unless the 7DII really rocks. I bought my 20D right after the 30D was introduced to take advantage of the price drop.]

Don't get me wrong, it is better for the consumer to have more choices, but with so many options now, I question the ROI on some models. Is the DSLR market really big enough to support so many choices from one company? It's starting to feel like GM of 5-10 years ago.


----------



## floex712 (Feb 21, 2013)

IMO, 20MP would be fine on a crop sensor. As far as wi-fi and GPS go, they can do exactly that, GO. Obviously that would require a non-mag alloy top on the body which eats at build quality. More than anything else I am concerned with fitting 24MP on a crop sensor, but here's hoping.


----------



## jrista (Feb 21, 2013)

floex712 said:


> IMO, 20MP would be fine on a crop sensor. As far as wi-fi and GPS go, they can do exactly that, GO. Obviously that would require a non-mag alloy top on the body which eats at build quality. More than anything else I am concerned with fitting 24MP on a crop sensor, but here's hoping.



I don't know how many times we'll have to go over this, but magnesium is *not *a good electromagnetic shield...stuffing GPS and WiFi into a mag body should be fine. I do not believe having a plastic body is a prereq.


----------



## hmmm (Feb 21, 2013)

D7100 in the mix: -- let's take a quick first look -- the D7100 packs high level build, the 51 pt AF of the D4, 15 cross sensors, af to f8 -- improved 24MP sensor with no optical low-pass filter --100% pentamirror viewfinder, SD 2-slots ... seems the D7100 covers a lot of the same ground as the 7D mKII -- but at $1200, not $2200! :-[


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 21, 2013)

hmmm said:


> D7100 in the mix: -- let's take a quick first look



Esp. with the crop mode from aps-c the 24mp d7100 will be a budget sports/wildlife shooter's dream, looking at Canon's latest innovations I somehow doubt that they'll put something equivalent in the 7d2 but more likely they'll try keep selling their tele lenses :-o



> 1.3x Crop Mode - Sports photographers take note: Building upon the telephoto benefits of the DX-format, the D7100 has the unique ability to shoot in a 1.3x DX crop mode for both stills and HD video. While in this innovative mode, shooters will gain an extra telephoto boost (2X), and a boost in burst speed to seven fps, with 15.4- megapixel resolution. Additionally, while in this mode,* the 51-point AF array covers more of the frame, allowing improved subject acquisition and tracking performance through the viewfinder*.


----------



## jrista (Feb 21, 2013)

hmmm said:


> D7100 in the mix: -- let's take a quick first look -- the D7100 packs high level build, the 51 pt AF of the D4, 15 cross sensors, af to f8 -- improved 24MP sensor with no optical low-pass filter --100% pentamirror viewfinder, SD 2-slots ... seems the D7100 covers a lot of the same ground as the 7D mKII -- but at $1200, not $2200! :-[



Just to keep things in perspective...they've started complaining about it, too! 



[quote author=Rebecca Tigris @ NikonRumors]If they seriously think this strategy of making the D4 the only fast camera is going to push everyone to shell out $6k, they're living in fairy land. Can't wait till used D3s's are under $3k.[/quote]

[quote author=GlobalGuy -> Rebecca Tigris @ NikonRumors]Exactly! I want a low-light camera with high-speed shooting. I don't care about Megapixels and AA filters (very few people do). Low-light (available/non-flash light) shooting is a huge part of photography. How can they focus so much on AA filters?? And the megapixel war should have been over 5 years ago! Give me an 18 MP, 10 FPS, and 12,800 pure-clean ISO.[/quote]



[quote author=Babs @ NikonRumors]Two SD slots...ugh. I wish it had at least one CF.[/quote]

[quote author=Gah Leable -> Babs @ NikonRumors]Yea, cuz everyone loves being stuck back in 2004.[/quote]




[quote author=800mm f/2.8 DX VR @ NikonRumors]NR, there are canon 7D2 specs out there. That is proof of a D400.[/quote]

[quote author=Stephen Hood -> 800mm f/2.8 DX VR @ NikonRumors]And 6fps will not be enough to compete with the 7D2.[/quote]



Even Fred Flintstone had something to bitch about it, and all he's used to are stone age stone cameras! 

[quote author=Fred Flintstone @ NikonRumors]Ergonomics nowhere near as good as a D300/s, owners of D300 will be in tears if this kills the D400 hopes[/quote]



For all of those who think it's all bliss over in Nikon land...here's a whiff: They bitch and moan just as much as we do, only about the latest and greatest Nikon thingamajig. ;D

And its so ironic, too...we bitch about having AA filters....they bitch about NOT having them. We bitch about having too many fps...they bitch about none of their cameras competing with the 7D line. 

Ah, the ironies. SO MANY IRONIES!


----------



## expatinasia (Feb 21, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Esp. with the crop mode from aps-c the 24mp d7100 will be a budget sports/wildlife shooter's dream, looking at Canon's latest innovations I somehow doubt that they'll put something equivalent in the 7d2 but more likely they'll try keep selling their tele lenses :-o



I would hardly call 6fps or 7fps a sports shooter's dream. Nice, but hardly dream material, even if you are on a budget.

If the 7D Mark II can really do 10fps then that would be great.


----------



## RMC33 (Feb 21, 2013)

expatinasia said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Esp. with the crop mode from aps-c the 24mp d7100 will be a budget sports/wildlife shooter's dream, looking at Canon's latest innovations I somehow doubt that they'll put something equivalent in the 7d2 but more likely they'll try keep selling their tele lenses :-o
> ...



6 is good in the sticks~

8 is great~

10 and Ben Roethlisberger is your focus~

12 and you get to delve into the land of sports MF~

14 FPS is just plain obscene~


----------



## K3nt (Feb 21, 2013)

RMC33 said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



+10.000 for the '14 is obscene' comment.  I saw a guy shooting a 1D-X at a local sports event at 14fps and HOLY CR*P! The sound of the shutter was insane!  My 7D sounded like an arthritic in comparison and it is no slouch. ;D


----------



## Hillsilly (Feb 21, 2013)

DanielW said:


> Hillsilly said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Canon......
> ...



Sorry, just having some fun. Realistically, with Canon being such a big company I'd be surprised if there weren't employees looking at forums like this to get ideas and feedback. But Given that we're already invested in the Canon system, they know they don't have to do anything too special to please us. They just have to make it unattractive to change brands. To paraphrase Edward de Bono, Canon don't need to make the best cameras in the world to please their existing customers. They just need to make cameras that aren't significantly worse than Nikon or Sony.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 21, 2013)

hmmm said:


> D7100 in the mix: -- let's take a quick first look -- the ...--100% *pentamirror* viewfinder...



Are you sure about that? Pentamirrors are cheaper (which is why they're used in the Rebel/xxxD line) and dimmer than the preferable pentaprisms.


----------



## garyknrd (Feb 21, 2013)

Hillsilly said:


> DanielW said:
> 
> 
> > Hillsilly said:
> ...



LOL,, that is true.


----------



## bseitz234 (Feb 21, 2013)

Love the ironies...


jrista said:


> And its so ironic, too...we bitch about having AA filters....they bitch about NOT having them. We bitch about having too many fps...they bitch about none of their cameras competing with the 7D line.
> 
> Ah, the ironies. SO MANY IRONIES!



in terms of price, FPS, the 7100 seems more on-par with an x0D than a 7d. Especially if it's a pentamirror VF instead of a pentaprism... which as neuro pointed out, is more xx0 than x0. Higher MP, sure, but that's what Nikon's all about, isn't it? I feel like this doesn't put that much pressure on an upcoming 7d2


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## tcmatthews (Feb 21, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> The body is made of magnesium.
> 
> Air has a permeability of 1.000 000 37
> Magnesium has a permiability of 1.000 12
> ...



It has been a long time sense I took electrodynamics courses in collage but this just did not sound right. This is true for the magnetic quality but magnesium is still conductive. Air is not. In fact aluminum is used for EMI shielding all the time and it has a permeability of 1.000021. This is greatly dependent on frequency at 2.4 Ghz the penetration of electromagnetic waves or skin depth of magnesium is only around 5.7 micro-meter. I would say that you will need a RF window for any wireless to work. I imagine that 800 Mhz would just go right through it. But we are talking wireless so that is 2.4 Ghz or higher. Just because something is not magnetic does not mean that it is a poor at EMI shielding. 

If you do not want to take my word for it I found a like to a company that makes magnesium alloy casting touting EMI shielding as one of the advantages. It is named Wellcharter. The site will not let me post the link here.


----------



## Fr3lncr (Feb 21, 2013)

Comparing the 7100 specs against the rumoured specs of the 7DMKII, Nikon will have to release something a little bit higher because as it stands, the 7DMKII will beat it on all specs. 

Since the price difference is estimated to be $1,000, and looking at the specs, the 7100 has got to be just competition for the 70D.

But since Nikon showed their cards first, I bet they wont show the D400 until after the 7DMKII is out so they can try and trump Canon.


----------



## Sporgon (Feb 21, 2013)

tcmatthews said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > The body is made of magnesium.
> ...



This kinda rings true with me: I don't think Canon would have used a plastic top plate on a $2000 camera unless there was a good reason for it.


----------



## RustyTheGeek (Feb 21, 2013)

EMI/RFI Shielding has little to do with permeability that is being discussed. I worked in a lab a long time ago that used simple screen mesh (like on a screen door) for shielding an entire small room. It was well GROUNDED. And only a specific range of frequencies were being attenuated. (You can only minimize the signal to a lower level, you don't actually block it entirely.) You can even shield (attenuate or minimize) with a thin coating of special paint or foil tape. It all depends on the frequency range and power levels in question. Radio frequency engineering is a complex subject. You see simple shielding all the time. Inside your laptop or cell phone. Inside your microwave oven door. The grounded door mesh completes a simple Faraday Cage and along with the metal box, it shields you from the microwaves inside. It works well because it is engineered for those specific frequencies and the fixed orientation of the radio wave emission.

Bottom Line is that if an EMI/RFI Engineer wants to use plastic instead of metal regardless of permeability, I'm not going to question the design because I want to assume they did a little testing and determined that to be the best solution. Even if a metal enclosure passes the signal, the effective range will likely still be better with a non metal enclosure.


----------



## simonxu11 (Feb 21, 2013)

bseitz234 said:


> Love the ironies...
> 
> 
> jrista said:
> ...



How come it's pentamirror,it says pentaprism on Nikon official website
http://www.nikon.com.au/en_AU/product_details.page?DCRPath=templatedata/en_AU/saleable_product_information/data/Digital%20SLR%20Cameras/D7100.xml&currentProductTab=3&CategoryID=gp11zkm9

So you guys believe the future X0D will have 100% VF, two SD slots, similar AF from flagship model, 1080i 60??


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 21, 2013)

simonxu11 said:


> How come it's pentamirror,it says pentaprism on Nikon official website



Thanks, that makes more sense (and is why I questioned the person who posted that it was a pentamirror).


----------



## Don Haines (Feb 21, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> tcmatthews said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



My mistake! I was thinking magnetic shielding... 

Pure magnesium is a relativly poor blocker of RF, but some of the alloys are quite good... and the Canon bodies are a magnesium alloy....

Once again... OOPS!!!


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 21, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> hmmm said:
> 
> 
> > D7100 in the mix: -- let's take a quick first look -- the ...--100% *pentamirror* viewfinder...
> ...



Of course its a Pentaprism Viewfinder ... as in the predecessors of their upper-,iod-level DSLRs .. all the way back to the D70/D80/D90/D7000. 

Source
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikon-d7100/2
and also Nikon themselves: http://www.nikon.de/de_DE/product/digital-cameras/slr/consumer/d7100
just got the Nikon germany link quickly

As per Nikon Germany spec sheets, the D7100 VF appears to be unchanged from the D7000:
* Pentaprism 
* Coverage 100 % (vertical and horizontal)
* Magnification approx. 0,94x (50mm-lens at f/1.4, focus infinite and –1,0 dpt
* eye point 19,5 mm @ –1,0 dpt
* Dioptre adapt -3 to +1 dpt

btw: try to find such detailed product information on European Canon websites .. good luck!


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## gecko (Feb 22, 2013)

Hope it has a 'direct print' button.


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## aznable (Feb 22, 2013)

bseitz234 said:


> in terms of price, FPS, the 7100 seems more on-par with an x0D than a 7d. Especially if it's a pentamirror VF instead of a pentaprism... which as neuro pointed out, is more xx0 than x0. Higher MP, sure, but that's what Nikon's all about, isn't it? I feel like this doesn't put that much pressure on an upcoming 7d2



of course it is...it costs 1100€

the real question is...the 70D will ba able to compete with this, feature wise or it will be another overpriced camera like 60D?


----------



## aznable (Feb 22, 2013)

gecko said:


> Hope it has a 'direct print' button.



canon.it

MIRINO

Tipo
Pentaspecchio 

Copertura (verticale/orizzontale)
Circa 95% 

Ingrandimento
Circa 0,80x¹ 

Campo visivo
Circa 21mm (from eyepiece lens center) 

Correzione diottrie
Da -2,5 a +0,5 m-1 (diottrie) 

Schermo di messa a fuoco
Fisso 

Specchio
Metà specchio a ritorno rapido (trasmissione: rapporto di riflesso 40:60, no cut-off specchio con EF 600 mm f/4 o inf.) 

Informazioni sul mirino
Informazioni AF: punti AF, luce conferma messa a fuoco
Informazioni esposizione: velocità otturatore, valore apertura, sensibilità ISO (sempre visualizzata), blocco AE, livello/compensazione esposizione, cerchio lettura spot, avviso esposizione, AEB
Informazioni flash: flash pronto, sinc. alta velocità, blocco FE, compensazione esposizione flash, luce riduzione occhi rossi
Informazioni sull'immagine: priorità toni chiari (D+), scatto monocromatico, velocità di scatto massima (indicazione a 1 cifra), correzione del bilanciamento del bianco, informazioni sulla scheda SD 

Anteprima profondità di campo
Sì, assegnata al pulsante SET mediante la funzione C.Fn-8-5 

Otturatore oculare
Su cinghia 

per i moderatori:
ma questa specie di troll molesto non è ancora stato bandito da questo forum?


----------



## bseitz234 (Feb 22, 2013)

aznable said:


> per i moderatori:
> ma questa specie di troll molesto non è ancora stato bandito da questo forum?



c'è un moderatore che parla italiano? 


New thought: AF-point linked spot metering. I was just rereading TDP's 1dx review, because I like to taunt myself like that. And I realized that's listed under "1dx advantages over 5d3". Any chance of the 7d2 getting this? I guess it comes back to giving a lower-numbered camera features that the higher-numbered, more expensive camera doesn't have, vs. pro-level / enthusiast level in the two separate lines (FF and APS-C). But for something so small, I can't help but think AF-point-linked spot metering would be really helpful for the kind of shooting people use these cameras for...


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 22, 2013)

bseitz234 said:


> New thought: AF-point linked spot metering. I was just rereading TDP's 1dx review, because I like to taunt myself like that. And I realized that's listed under "1dx advantages over 5d3". Any chance of the 7d2 getting this?



I somehow doubt it because the reason why the 1dx has it and the 5d3 hasn't is the different metering system - so for the 7d2 with supposedly a more complex af system as the 7d Canon would also have to add another completely new metering system. Of course they could if they wanted to, but one the one hand it'd drive up the costs for sure.


----------



## bseitz234 (Feb 22, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> bseitz234 said:
> 
> 
> > New thought: AF-point linked spot metering. I was just rereading TDP's 1dx review, because I like to taunt myself like that. And I realized that's listed under "1dx advantages over 5d3". Any chance of the 7d2 getting this?
> ...



Ah. Fair point. I assumed dedicated processor for AF, forgot the 1dx had one for AE. Too many letters... 

oh well, I'll keep dreaming.


----------



## aznable (Feb 23, 2013)

bseitz234 said:


> aznable said:
> 
> 
> > per i moderatori:
> ...



of course not, but i wanted to use just italian for the entire message


----------



## Bosman (Mar 6, 2013)

I know i am kinda late to the party but I keep trying to buy a 7D but keep stopping myself...The current 7D just doesn't out do my 1D Mark III so i guess i can't justify the regular 7D until I have gotten an upgrade. Why why why does this have to come out in the fall. I'd buy it right now like i bought the 5DM3 last March. Oh God I'd be so happy if they released it 2 weeks from now. Heres to unrealistic hope.


----------



## Etienne (Mar 6, 2013)

Bosman said:


> I know i am kinda late to the party but I keep trying to buy a 7D but keep stopping myself...The current 7D just doesn't out do my 1D Mark III so i guess i can't justify the regular 7D until I have gotten an upgrade. Why why why does this have to come out in the fall. I'd buy it right now like i bought the 5DM3 last March. Oh God I'd be so happy if they released it 2 weeks from now. Heres to unrealistic hope.



Great quote comes to mind: "The best time to buy a new digital camera is when it's NEW."

I wouldn't buy a 60D, T4i, or 7D today. They will all be replaced soon. 
Wait or buy a 6D, 5DIII, 1Dx etc.


----------



## CarlTN (Mar 6, 2013)

Etienne said:


> Great quote comes to mind: "The best time to buy a new digital camera is when it's NEW."
> 
> I wouldn't buy a 60D, T4i, or 7D today. They will all be replaced soon.
> Wait or buy a 6D, 5DIII, 1Dx etc.



I would consider buying a 7D if the price on new units falls well below $1000. It might, it might not. I'll probably just buy a 6D by late summer, and keep my 50D (its noise isn't that much worse than the 7D, and the AF is way more usable than all the unfairly negative criticism would appear). But I want the 6D/24-105 combo for the "nice price", which hasn't quite happened yet. It's been close once, supposedly. However, if I start seeing used 6D's going for $1150 and below, then I think I'll just spend more and get a new 5D3/24-105 instead. The only used 6D's on amazon so far, are listed the same as the new price...or else within $100 of the new price (~1700-$1850). Of course it's only been out three months. I am more price conscious than many on here, mostly because I don't make $10k a week from doing photography.


----------



## insanitybeard (Mar 7, 2013)

Etienne said:


> Great quote comes to mind: "The best time to buy a new digital camera is when it's NEW."
> 
> I wouldn't buy a 60D, T4i, or 7D today. They will all be replaced soon.
> Wait or buy a 6D, 5DIII, 1Dx etc.



That's all well and good, but just because the (e.g) 7D is old tech doesn't mean you can't still take great pictures with it. If the buying price was the same as when the product was new I would agree with you, but if the buying price of those bodies has dropped due to newer models being imminent, why pay full whack for the latest and greatest? There are some that need and are prepared to pay full price for the latest tech. Fair enough. But that isn't everybody.


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Mar 7, 2013)

Etienne said:


> Bosman said:
> 
> 
> > I know i I wouldn't buy a 60D, T4i, or 7D today. They will all be replaced soon.
> ...


----------



## Chosenbydestiny (Mar 7, 2013)

insanitybeard said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > Great quote comes to mind: "The best time to buy a new digital camera is when it's NEW."
> ...



+1 The 5D classic is even older but at the right price with extra money to burn I'd still buy it again today and leave it plugged in at the studio, even if it's old and used. Almost every camera has it's own distinct character in the images they take. The original 5D is legendary and I still prefer the look from it's images from lower ISOs, it also has better looking analog'esque grain than a lot of the new full frame bodies like the 5D mark III. It can't keep up for tech today, but I wouldn't consider it completely useless. I'd probably go as far as saying getting any camera is okay if you can still buy new batteries for it.


----------



## RGF (Mar 7, 2013)

Bosman said:


> I know i am kinda late to the party but I keep trying to buy a 7D but keep stopping myself...The current 7D just doesn't out do my 1D Mark III so i guess i can't justify the regular 7D until I have gotten an upgrade. Why why why does this have to come out in the fall. I'd buy it right now like i bought the 5DM3 last March. Oh God I'd be so happy if they released it 2 weeks from now. Heres to unrealistic hope.



Key question - will the current crop of cameras work for you. By this I mean will they have sufficient IQ, approriately weatherproof, highest enough light sensitivity, .. So you can get the picture you want. After many people do great work with a phone camera.

Now if lust over the latest and greatest, perfectly okay to do so,the wait (and wait and wait) as something new is always rumored. ;D ;D


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 8, 2013)

WOW! ... 22 pages of posts for a camera whose specs are not even out ... is that indication of the popularity of 7D? ... there has not been this much speculation for the replacement of D7000 (i.e. D7100) coz according to Ken Rockwell "D7000 is the best APS-C DSLR ever" (I know the name Ken Rockwell invites lots of hate around here. Anyway, the number of posts here on 7D replacement, for me, is an indication of how popular it really is.


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## jrista (Mar 8, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> WOW! ... 22 pages of posts for a camera whose specs are not even out ... is that indication of the popularity of 7D? ... there has not been this much speculation for the replacement of D7000 (i.e. D7100) coz according to Ken Rockwell "D7000 is the best APS-C DSLR ever" (I know the name Ken Rockwell invites lots of hate around here. Anyway, the number of posts here on 7D replacement, for me, is an indication of how popular it really is.



Rockwell invites hate because he is a douche (you ever seen him in a video?), and because he calls just about every newest camera on the market the "Best whatever EVER!". I mean, how can you trust a guy who can't be truly objective, and just gravitates towards the newest thing and drools all over it whenever the newest thing hits the street?  (And that is nothing to say of the frequent rogue inaccuracies and blatant misrepresentations and incorrect statements he regularly makes, about ANY and ALL brands of camera.)


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## distant.star (Mar 8, 2013)

.
I don't think Rockwell gets so much hate as he does envy. Lots of folks here know more than he does, yet he's making a good living spouting off and pretending to be an "expert."

For me, I feel sorry for him. I can't imagine choosing such an undignified way to make a living (one level below "professional wrestling," I guess). And I won't get into pimping his family. Makes me shake my head and feel sad.

I also think he does a disservice to many people who don't know much about photography.




jrista said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > WOW! ... 22 pages of posts for a camera whose specs are not even out ... is that indication of the popularity of 7D? ... there has not been this much speculation for the replacement of D7000 (i.e. D7100) coz according to Ken Rockwell "D7000 is the best APS-C DSLR ever" (I know the name Ken Rockwell invites lots of hate around here. Anyway, the number of posts here on 7D replacement, for me, is an indication of how popular it really is.
> ...


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## RGF (Mar 8, 2013)

Doubt that they will be able to hit 24 MP and 10 FPS.

Maybe 18 MP and 10 FPS or 24 MP and 6-8 FPS.


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## jrista (Mar 8, 2013)

RGF said:


> Doubt that they will be able to hit 24 MP and 10 FPS.
> 
> Maybe 18 MP and 10 FPS or 24 MP and 6-8 FPS.



I think people have made certain assumptions about the 1D X's dual DIGIC 5+ DSP's processing speed based on incorrect calculations. Most of the numbers I've seen seem to be based on a 12fps frame rate...but remember that the 1D X has a mirror-lockup 14fps rate as well. Additionally, most people forget that Canon RAW images include a bunch of masked off pixels around the border of the sensor. The actual pixel count is 19.3mp, rather than 18mp, when it comes to computing the data processing throughput rate. Given that:

The 1D X has at at least 33.8MB per RAW image assuming 19.3mp real pixel count. At 14 frames per second, the processing rate of each DIGIC chip would have to be at least 236MB/s (~473MB/s total, vs. the 144MB/s or 165MB/s per DIGIC I've seen calculated by others.) Accounting for some additional overhead, metadata included in the images, etc. I would say the processing rate of each DIGIC 5+ chip to be at least 250MB/s. That is 500MB/s total processing power. 

If the 7D II has a 24.1mp sensor, its real pixel count is probably around 25.8mp. At 10fps, that is 225MB/s per DIGIC chip. That is actually LOWER than the data rate of the 1D X at its full 14fps speed. I see absolutely no problem for the 7D II, assuming it continues to use the same Dual-DIGIC approach as the 1D line, and the same generation and version of the DIGIC chips. Actually, a higher frame rate would probably be possible. Assuming an 11fps frame rate, the maximum throughput is still less than 500mb/s (although, with any additional overhead like metadata, dual DIGIC5+ might not actually be fast enough.)


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## Krob78 (Mar 8, 2013)

I'll be rushing out immediately to pick up a new 7D MK II. What all the hub-bub is about regarding the original 7D is that the complete lack of any high ISO usage, renders images useless and totally unusable for any purpose, as this sample taken at ISO 3200 on my original 7D, clearly shows... 7D MK II please get here soon! :-X

EOS 7D
EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6mm L IS USM
1/1000 sec
F/6.3
ISO 3200
400mm


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## K-amps (Mar 8, 2013)

CarlTN said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > Great quote comes to mind: "The best time to buy a new digital camera is when it's NEW."
> ...



If I made $10k a week... I'd own that Chess Set you have been drooling over...


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## Krob78 (Mar 8, 2013)

And with all due respect to my previous post & photo, I've found the 7D quite challenging to use over ISO 400 in any portraiture work... The 5D3 has been great in that respect for me, I'm interested in what the new 7D2 will actually spec out at, I'm positive I won't be a first adapter, if it's formidable however, I'd consider it, down the road a little... be crazy not too! :


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## RS2021 (Mar 8, 2013)

Krob78 said:


> I'll be rushing out immediately to pick up a new 7D MK II. What all the hub-bub is about regarding the original 7D is that the complete lack of any high ISO usage, renders images useless and totally unusable for any purpose, as this sample taken at ISO 3200 on my original 7D, clearly shows... 7D MK II please get here soon! :-X
> 
> EOS 7D
> EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6mm L IS USM
> ...



Not to mention the fact that you are using that completely useless, worthless, good for nothing, sub-standard, totally blah, chuck-it-in-the-dustbin-already old clunker of a 100-400L zoom...barf, barf!!! No picture of any use whatsoever could be taken untill that day the new 7D2 and 100-400 version II arive. Then, and only then, will all be well and good in the world. :-X


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## jrista (Mar 9, 2013)

Krob78 said:


> I'll be rushing out immediately to pick up a new 7D MK II. What all the hub-bub is about regarding the original 7D is that the complete lack of any high ISO usage, renders images useless and totally unusable for any purpose, as this sample taken at ISO 3200 on my original 7D, clearly shows... 7D MK II please get here soon! :-X
> 
> EOS 7D
> EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6mm L IS USM
> ...



Good photo (love the colors), but I would say there are some issues with it that are definitely due to the camera and lens combination. There is also no embedded metadata, so there really isn't any way for any of us to verify that it really was shot at ISO 3200.

I've taken a lot of bird photos at ISO 3200 on the 7D (mostly with the 100-400mm lens), and the noise is usually a lot worse than that. Assuming you have not applied any NR, there is definitely a loss of fidelity. There is also a loss of detail. The 100-400mm lens imposes increased softness at f/6.3, and even more at f/5.6...usually, f/7.1 is the sharpest aperture (as f/8 is beyond the DLA of the 7D sensor and just barely a touch softer). Having used both the 100-400 as well as the 300 & 500 Mark II lenses on my 7D recently, I can attest to the fact that at that magnification/crop, even at ISO 3200, the lens is definitely costing you some sharpness and detail definition there...even though they are noisy, a shot taken the 300 or 500 w/ 1.4x TC at f/6.3 usually has much sharper detail.

I'd also point out that the full-size download shows a fair amount of posterization in the background, which is another one of the issues you encounter when using higher ISO settings with small pixels. Gain is so high for such a low full well capacity that you get a lot more quantization error than with something like the 5D III or 1D X and their significantly higher full well capacities.


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## Krob78 (Mar 9, 2013)

jrista said:


> Krob78 said:
> 
> 
> > I'll be rushing out immediately to pick up a new 7D MK II. What all the hub-bub is about regarding the original 7D is that the complete lack of any high ISO usage, renders images useless and totally unusable for any purpose, as this sample taken at ISO 3200 on my original 7D, clearly shows... 7D MK II please get here soon! :-X
> ...


 Thank you. In the interest of keeping things above board, I've re-uploaded the file with the metadata embedded as you desired sir! 

I agree that there is certainly some posteriztion in the background and it is certainly far from perfect, I would edit exposure and some other things as well. That being said, it is not a crop, it's the actual size of that particular image. I have other bird and wildlife images at high iso's with my 7d as well and some that are really quite usable. Most with my 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II. It is much more challenging with the 100-400 as you pointed out. 

I'm certainly not cheering the 7D and it's high ISO capabilities, just that for all the complaints about it, decent, usable images can be had at what is considered a high iso for that camera. My complaint with it is with regard to high iso and portrait work, there it has given me some challenges...

I love my 7d, I love my 5D MK III even more, not at first though... I will be a candidate for the 7D MK II, most likely within the year after it is available... My 7D will be passed down or sold sometime in that future... I must say, it's served me well for the over 50,000 images I've taken with it so far!


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## East Wind Photography (Mar 9, 2013)

You can also "help" the 7D noise at high ISO by overexposing and pulling it back down in post...try to get as much noise as possible down into the lower DR. Easier to process out as well. I never got anything like this at ISO 3200 but considering it's full frame and formatted for the web. It is quite good.



Krob78 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Krob78 said:
> ...


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 9, 2013)

Krob78 said:


> I'm certainly not cheering the 7D and it's high ISO capabilities, just that for all the complaints about it, decent, usable images can be had at what is considered a high iso for that camera. My complaint with it is with regard to high iso and portrait work, there it has given me some challenges...


I agree. I liked your photo, I think there is nothing wrong in that photo that a decent PP could not fix ... I would desaturate the background a bit so the bird would stand out more. But just curious about your comment on high ISO and portrait work ... why would you do portrait work in high ISO, any decent portrait work is usually (if not always) done in good light or studio lighting etc ... I thought most photographers consider it a sacrilege to use high ISO for portrait work. 


Krob78 said:


> I will be a candidate for the 7D MK II, most likely within the year after it is available...


I'll get it when there is a good rebate ... maybe Christmas time


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## jimmy kamballur (Mar 9, 2013)

Specification list 
http://camerarumors.blogspot.in/2013/03/7d-mark-ii-will-have-32mp-sensor.html


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## RS2021 (Mar 9, 2013)

jimmy kamballur said:


> Specification list
> http://camerarumors.blogspot.in/2013/03/7d-mark-ii-will-have-32mp-sensor.html



Bwahahahahahaha! 32 MP ....thanks for starting my saturday right with a laugh


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## westcoaster (Mar 9, 2013)

With all the sensor upgrades and talk of faster autofocus (different battery for that purpose), silly question - Do you think this will crack the restriction on using 2X teleconverters on f4 lenses? I always understood the smaller sensor and inability to autofocus to be the reason for Canon not officially sanctioning the use of 2x on anything smaller than f2.8 on cropped sensors. You have to think these advancements could pave the way to cracking the 2X teleconverter. Thoughts? I would love to use a 2X on some of the bigger telephotos.


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## jrista (Mar 9, 2013)

westcoaster said:


> With all the sensor upgrades and talk of faster autofocus (different battery for that purpose), silly question - Do you think this will crack the restriction on using 2X teleconverters on f4 lenses? I always understood the smaller sensor and inability to autofocus to be the reason for Canon not officially sanctioning the use of 2x on anything smaller than f2.8 on cropped sensors. You have to think these advancements could pave the way to cracking the 2X teleconverter. Thoughts? I would love to use a 2X on some of the bigger telephotos.



Most of the time, AF is limited to at least f/5.6 max apertures or wider. The ability to AF at f/8 max aperture (i.e. f/4 w/ 2x TC, f/5.6 w/ 1.4x TC) is really determined by the capabilities of the dedicated AF unit, not the size of the image sensor. The image sensor does not handle AF in a DSLR...a special AF sensor housed in the AF unit underneath the mirror box handles Phase Detection AF. 

Historically, the 1D line of cameras has had AF sensors with DEDICATED f/8 sensitive strips, along with AF drive firmware in the body to actually handle the instructions to the lens to AF when the maximum aperture is f/8. Special care has to be taken when performing AF in such low light...it has to be done more slowly to allow enough light to reach the AF sensor such that an accurate read can be taken and the appropriate phase shift detected.

If all of Canon's new pro/semi-pro bodies (xD lines) get either the 61pt AF system, or AF systems that support very low light (i.e. -3 EV in the 6D), then f/8 AF should be possible. Since the 7D II is rumored to be getting the 61pt AF system, it sounds like it will also be inheriting that AF unit's f/8 AF ability and the necessary firmware (and power requirements).


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## bdunbar79 (Mar 9, 2013)

RS2021 said:


> jimmy kamballur said:
> 
> 
> > Specification list
> ...



I spit up some coffee. This is great, I haven't been watching any funny movies lately. Thanks I needed that.


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## ooF Fighters (Mar 9, 2013)

Maybe this has already been wished for, but how about a built in radio trigger so I wont have to spend north of $800 bucks just to use the new 600 flash off camera?


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## mb66energy (Mar 9, 2013)

bdunbar79 said:


> RS2021 said:
> 
> 
> > jimmy kamballur said:
> ...



36 or 40 MP would be good news and a raw mode which bins the pixels into 18/20 + 9/10 MP to get rid of the patterns of monochromatic light sources. With a back side illuminated sensor the net photosensor size would be the same as that of a lower MP sensor giving you the freedom to choose between different resolutions, high ISO modes and a mode which avoids demosaicing completely.


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## nicku (Mar 9, 2013)

jimmy kamballur said:


> Specification list
> http://camerarumors.blogspot.in/2013/03/7d-mark-ii-will-have-32mp-sensor.html



ha ha haaa... ;D ;D

the Perfect 7D2 ( as a 1Dx backup) will have *16MP* sensor and ISO quality on pair with 5Dmk2.... move 70D little bit up in the canon line (build quality like 50D) and fit it with a 24MP sensor.  

I believe this will be the best move from Canon.... definitely will pun some serious pressure on Nikon regarding crop frame - high end cameras..


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## jrista (Mar 9, 2013)

nicku said:


> jimmy kamballur said:
> 
> 
> > Specification list
> ...



I'd disagree that a lower resolution 7D II would be better. ISO performance can be improved in other ways besides larger photodiode area these days. Only when we hit the maximum achievable Q.E. will we have no other option but to use larger photodiodes. Reach is the key benefit of the 7D line...and reach has to do with pixel density, not sensor size. A 24.1mp APS-C 7D II would bring in the buyers more than anything else, as that is what the 7D line is all about...*reach *with sports-level performance.


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## rs (Mar 9, 2013)

jrista said:


> I'd disagree that a lower resolution 7D II would be better. ISO performance can be improved in other ways besides larger photodiode area these days. Only when we hit the maximum achievable Q.E. will we have no other option but to use larger photodiodes. Reach is the key benefit of the 7D line...and reach has to do with pixel density, not sensor size. A 24.1mp APS-C 7D II would bring in the buyers more than anything else, as that is what the 7D line is all about...*reach *with sports-level performance.


The 7D is also famed for its frame rate and buffer depth. If the MP is kept in check, there's no reason why Canon can't push the boundaries and make that small mirror and shutter move much faster in the mk II. But if they increase it to 24 MP, it's likely to remain at about 8 FPS.


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## jrista (Mar 9, 2013)

rs said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > I'd disagree that a lower resolution 7D II would be better. ISO performance can be improved in other ways besides larger photodiode area these days. Only when we hit the maximum achievable Q.E. will we have no other option but to use larger photodiodes. Reach is the key benefit of the 7D line...and reach has to do with pixel density, not sensor size. A 24.1mp APS-C 7D II would bring in the buyers more than anything else, as that is what the 7D line is all about...*reach *with sports-level performance.
> ...



Well, I just ran these calculations the other day. People have gravely miscalculated the data throughput rate of the 1D X at 144-165mb/s per DIGIC 5+ chip. Most of the calculations involve an 18mp image size, and do not account for metadata or other overhead. Additionally, not all throughput calculations people do factor in the 14fps frame rate of the 1D X (which it can do with mirror lockup.) The "real" pixel count of the 1D X is 19.3mp, as Canon masks off a border of pixels for calibration purposes, and those pixels ARE included in the RAW image when it is saved to the CF card. Accounting for a higher "real" RAW image pixel count, 14fps frame rate, and a buffer for any overhead:


```
19,300,000pixels * 14bit / 8bit/byte * 14fps = 473mb/s
```

Assuming there is some overhead, and the need for a little bit of leeway for metadata for each image, and the need to account for performing compression and the like, I'd say the total throughput of the 1D X is at least 500mb/s. That is 250mb/s per DIGIC 5+ dsp chip. Now, if we run a similar calculation for the 7D II assuming a 24.1mp image size, and a similar 7% additional pixels for the masked border pixels, we have a "real" 7D II pixel count of 25.8mp (25,787,000 pixels). Running the same calculation, only for 10fps instead of 14fps:


```
25,787,000 pixels * 14bit / 8bit/byte * 10fps = 452mb/s
```

Even with a considerably higher pixel count, the 7D II with a pair of DIGIC 5+ processors should be able to handle 10fps no problem. That would actually be a LOWER data throughput rate than the 1D X at 14fps! We can run the numbers for 11fps, too:


```
25,787,000 pixels * 14bit / 8bit/byte * 11fps = 497mb/s
```

Even at 11fps, we are still below the 500mb/s total that would be allowed if each DIGIC 5+ chip could process at a throughput rate of 250mb/s (which, to me, seems like a more plausible throughput rate than 165mb/s that you get at 18mp and 12fps). If you factor in the facts that the DIGIC 5+ processors have to not only perform ADC on the incoming sensor pixel data, but also compress and write the output pixels to the memory cards, the raw I/O throughput rate of these chips has to be very high.

I see no reason the 7D II couldn't have both a higher pixel count AND the additional 2fps bonus over the 7D I. The math certainly adds up...


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## rs (Mar 9, 2013)

jrista said:


> Additionally, not all throughput calculations people do factor in the 14fps frame rate of the 1D X (which it can do with mirror lockup.)


At 14 FPS, its not just a lack of mirror movement and AF, but RAW is off the menu too - read page 113 of the 1D X manual if you want to check up on it.

It all depends on whether Canon want to make it fast or really fast. In reality, the small mirror _could_ move faster than the 12 FPS full sized mirror in the 1D X does, but something tells me they won't do that for marketing purposes. 12 FPS and a very healthy sized buffer wouldn't be out of the question if the MP is kept down.

Admittedly, your calculations resized to 12 FPS for the 1D X in RAW mode make a 24MP camera with the same processing power capable of 9 FPS, which is a slight improvement over the current 7D.


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## jrista (Mar 9, 2013)

rs said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Additionally, not all throughput calculations people do factor in the 14fps frame rate of the 1D X (which it can do with mirror lockup.)
> ...



The pixels streaming in from the sensor are "raw"...it doesn't become a JPEG until AFTER the DIGIC chip has done its work and the image is rendered, compressed, and written to the CF card. The input rate from sensor to DIGIC would have to be 473mb/s regardless of what format you end up writing to. JPEG would only matter for the data writeout rate to the CF card. Writing to CF card is limited to at most 150mb/s, on top of which I believe the 1D X has only a 768mb frame buffer...which wouldn't actually be able to accommodate 14fps continuous RAW for a sustained 3.2 seconds (which is what you get at 12fps.)


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## Bosman (Mar 9, 2013)

RGF said:


> Bosman said:
> 
> 
> > I know i am kinda late to the party but I keep trying to buy a 7D but keep stopping myself...The current 7D just doesn't out do my 1D Mark III so i guess i can't justify the regular 7D until I have gotten an upgrade. Why why why does this have to come out in the fall. I'd buy it right now like i bought the 5DM3 last March. Oh God I'd be so happy if they released it 2 weeks from now. Heres to unrealistic hope.
> ...


Let me put it this way in one summer i will put just shy of 100,000 images on a camera shooting sports. Many of those days are dark mornings thus iso jacked up and colors taking a hit. While my 1dm3 has served me well since 2007 i have had the shutter replaced 3x, the last time was just over 340,000 actuations. I do believe the 7d center point focus beats my 1dm3 because i have guys that shoot for me that use them and their shots in focus ratio is a little better than mine and its not due to operator error. An advanced hi-iso 7D II with new focus tech in it is just what would suit me. I don't see myself dropping 6.5G's so i can shoot sports and weddings better than my 5d3. Also i want the crop factor. It makes my 24LII a 38.4mm focal length and ideally i like to shoot finishline work at 35mm. With my 1dm3 it is just over 31mm. So the sensor crop, speed and focus tech are what i am looking for in a new camera. 
I get the do you need it comments. I guess when i make money at it and i can offer a better more consistant product then i am happy too.


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## rs (Mar 9, 2013)

jrista said:


> rs said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...


I get what you're saying about what comes off the sensor being raw. The digic chip does all the conversion to jpeg after all. But it can't be the CF card which restricts the use of raw, as the data gets stored in the buffer and then it gets dumped onto the CF card in whatever amount of time it takes. After all, a 1D X doesn't slow down with slow cards if the burst can be contained fully within the buffer. Also, the buffer size doesn't impose any limits on speed of the burst, just its depth.

I don't know where the bottleneck with the 1D X is, but it seems like 12 fps is pretty much the upper limit for that FF mirror to flap around as at 14 fps its stays put, disabling AF and the viewfinder. And 12 fps clearly is also the limits of some part of the processing/storage for 18MP raw, as 14 fps is jpeg only. I believe that's why the 1D X has a lower number of MP that other recent FF cameras - the 1D X's electronics couldn't handle more MP while doing the the mirror box justice. No doubt the replacement for the 1D X with its faster electronics will at least get up to what Canon sees as the normal number of MP for FF - low 20's.

As for what is restricting 14 fps raw, quite obviously that sensor gives the read out just fine, the A/D circuitry works, and its processing system can take the input and convert it. Could it simply be the write speed of the buffer isn't up to taking the data at the rate needed for 14 fps in raw format?

Or could it be as simple as Nikon's 14 bit raw dropping to 12 bit raw at higher frame rates on certain cameras? Possibly Canon didn't want to drop down from 14 bit raw, so they just did a quick and dirty solution of limiting it to jpeg only? 14 bit at 12 fps vs 12 bit at 14 fps... If that's the case, 12fps 14 bit raw is the absolute limit of its processing speed, not just the buffer.


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## bdunbar79 (Mar 9, 2013)

mb66energy said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > RS2021 said:
> ...



Yeah, but it's not going to be in a 7D Mark II.


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## Bosman (Mar 11, 2013)

bdunbar79 said:


> mb66energy said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...


^^ Agreed


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 11, 2013)

hjulenissen said:


> It is kind of surprising that you get jpeg but not raw in the highest speed mode. This suggests that is it _some_ (e.g. bus) bandwidth that is the limitation, and not the number-crunching needed to develop into jpeg.



As suggested above, the reflex mirror seems to impose the 12 fps limit as MLU is needed for 14 fps. The fact that only jpgs are written at 14 fps does suggest a limitation in the write capabilities, since the RAW image has to be acquired and converted to jpg even when shooting RAW only.


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## sagittariansrock (Mar 11, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> hjulenissen said:
> 
> 
> > It is kind of surprising that you get jpeg but not raw in the highest speed mode. This suggests that is it _some_ (e.g. bus) bandwidth that is the limitation, and not the number-crunching needed to develop into jpeg.
> ...



???


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## Krob78 (Mar 11, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> Krob78 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm certainly not cheering the 7D and it's high ISO capabilities, just that for all the complaints about it, decent, usable images can be had at what is considered a high iso for that camera. My complaint with it is with regard to high iso and portrait work, there it has given me some challenges...
> ...


No real issues for studio work so much. More with regard to location portraiture and in particular, family shoots rather than individual or couples... 

The 7d (mine anyway), has a huge issue with noise in the shadows in my opinion and that's the noise I concern myself with in post for family portraiture. I do a lot of location images and often times my clientele has a place they want images taken at, rather than my recommendations... it can be trying at times, hence the 5D MK III is now the new pony in my stable since around Christmas time... It doesn't seem to have those issues and for what it's worth the two cameras seem to get along fine in my bag! 

That being said, the 7D is seeing less and less clicks these days as I work to accentuate my relationship with my 5DIII... I love them both!


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## Krob78 (Mar 11, 2013)

East Wind Photography said:


> You can also "help" the 7D noise at high ISO by overexposing and pulling it back down in post...try to get as much noise as possible down into the lower DR. Easier to process out as well. I never got anything like this at ISO 3200 but considering it's full frame and formatted for the web. It is quite good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks East Wind, I didn't really do much to this image, it wasn't a keeper for me, I would apply NR in LR4 and certainly make some adjustments in exp, contrast, saturation, etc. if I thought to keep it for something. Mostly I just threw it up there, as someone mentioned the crappy 7D and it's lousy high iso capabilities. My point is just that it's not that terrible... can be trying at times and give one some extra work in post but the 7D is and has been a very formidable and fun camera for a lot of us. I'm sure I could get years more service out of it...

I still have to say though, the sound of the shutter speed on my 7D sounds incredibly more fast than my 5dIII. I didn't think it would be that noticeable going from 8fps to 6fps, however it's quite different in my opinion and to my ears... 

I shot a soccer game yesterday and could readily see the shots in between that would have been nice to have from my 7d, if I had only brought it... It sounds like my 7d on low speed! However, I love, love, love the silent high speed shutter mode! It's excellent and hopefully makes it into the 7dII...


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 11, 2013)

sagittariansrock said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > *since the RAW image has to be acquired and converted to jpg even when shooting RAW only*.
> ...



When a RAW image is captured, a JPG conversion is done in-camera to create a small preview image, and that JPG preview is saved within the RAW file container. That JPG preview is what you see on the rear LCD of the camera after the shot, and importantly, it's what's used to generate the histogram data and the highlight alert if you use those features. 

It's worth knowing, because many people think that the in-camera settings are totally irrelevant if recording RAW images - that's mostly true (long exposure NR is an exception), but if you make exposure decisions (e.g. ETTR) based on the histogram, the settings for Picture Style (contrast, etc.), ALO, HTP, white balance, etc., are all applied to the JPG preview image and the histogram data/blinkies, and that can affect your exposure decisions. Some people actually use a modified Picture Style that makes the JPG image more closely resemble the RAW file in terms of exposure.


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## sagittariansrock (Mar 11, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> sagittariansrock said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...




Makes a lot of sense now that you've explained it. Thanks, that was very helpful.


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