# 5D3suffer blackdots(EDIT:my mistake,just poorly tuned sharpening algo4incamJPGS



## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 2, 2012)

EDIT: I see the older version of the thread got brought back to life so I re-titled this one to not be misleading. I see the new thread got attached to the end of the original thread. Anyway on the new thread it was determined that is much more likely a poor tuning of the in cam jpg sharpening and NR algorithms than anything to do with the black dot issue of the 5D2. 

Sorry my mistake. It's probably not a big deal at all. it wont' affect RAW at all. Hopefully they will fine the jpg sharpening/NR before release (these samples were taken months ago apparently). Still not sure why Canon always uses awful sample shots, each camera release seems to lower the bar for the samples they provide.






Wow, after the big deal about the black dots with the 5D2, they post a bunch of 5D3 samples where bright objects have black haloes. The issues looks worse than it ever did with the 5D2.

Hopefully they can fix it again. A bit surprised they have the same sensor issue again.


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## bycostello (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*

shocking there is especially surrounding all the hype...


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## thenickdude (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*

Can you post a link to one of the photos which has this problem?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*

A google of 5D MK III black dots has not broght up a single post. Why not provide a link to a valid image?


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## HurtinMinorKey (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*

This image ?

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos5dmk3/downloads/02.jpg

I see noise in the second pic (it's taken at 6400ISO, so it's what you'd expect).

Okay, I'm seeing some halos around the stars in the first pic. Is this what you are referring to? Could this just be a JPEG artifact?

<a href="http://s1241.photobucket.com/albums/gg507/HurtinMinorKey/?action=view&amp;current=blackHalo.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1241.photobucket.com/albums/gg507/HurtinMinorKey/blackHalo.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


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## HurtinMinorKey (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*

Here it is at 400% magnification.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*



HurtinMinorKey said:


> This image ?
> 
> http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos5dmk3/downloads/02.jpg
> 
> ...



Yeah most of the brighter stars are surround by a black halo. And even on the snowboarder pic it looks like some is outlines in dark blue and black halo, which really brings it into a territory where it never showed at all on the 5D2. On the 5D2 it would mostly show at high ISO when shooting things like Christmas lights and you'd get a black blob to one side of every specular highlight or bright point. Or if you shot night city scapes, each bright window would have a black stripe running along it. Luckily they were able to fix it in firmware. Hopefully they can this time too. I'm kind of shocked it has it again after all that was made out of it when the 5D2 got released with the issue.

It actually looks worse to me than the original 5D2 black dot issue.

Maybe it is just jpg artifacts but it really looks like the 5D2 issue, only a bit worse.

And I am not the only one to notice this. I see that many people on DPR and FM and other sites independently noticed it. In fact CR seems to be the only place where it isn't getting much attention.

Hopefully they can fix it again in firmware and hopefully it doesn't rob anything in the process of the fix.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> In fact CR seems to be the only place where it isn't getting much attention.



Until now...


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## pedro (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*

isn't that a pre-production unit?


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## HurtinMinorKey (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*

It has been suggested that this is an artifact of sharpening. I'm gonna test this once I get home.


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## well_dunno (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*

As long as it is not suggested they are alien spaceships, we are safe...


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## Curmudgeon (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*

Deeply disappointed. I was hoping for pink dots this time.


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## rumorzmonger (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*

At 400% magnification, everything in the image is an interpolation artifact... :

You need to look at the image at 100% in order to see what is actually coming out of the camera.


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## DavidRiesenberg (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*

According to the EXIF, that image was taken back on October 9th. So we're talking about a camera that will be at least six months old on release date. That means it is probably 5 months older than the production model.


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## rocketdesigner (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*



rumorzmonger said:


> At 400% magnification, everything in the image is an interpolation artifact... :
> 
> You need to look at the image at 100% in order to see what is actually coming out of the camera.



This a 4x magnification and someone started another gripe thread .... ? 

I've heard of pixel-peeping, but this more like anal-pixel-peeping.


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## DJL329 (Mar 3, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*

When I first read the subject line, I thought this was a joke, but now that I've seen the full image, I'm _sure_ of it.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 4, 2012)

*5D3 black outlines - something weird with in cam jpg sharpening+NR (or maybe*

EDIT:
maybe it is something different after all since some of it seems to be merely very dark shades and not solid 0,0,0 which it was on the 5D2 (or maybe the same issue but just partially fixed?)

Anyway hopefully they will have better tuned the algorithms on the release firmware if it's just the new jpg processing engine causing it and hopefully it's not some issue that will be there even in the RAW files.

Whatever the case it's pretty sloppy to have so many mangled and ugly samples online to represent the new camera. The fall mtn HDR scene is just scary.

-----------------------


This was a very real problem on the initial 5D2s which Canon themselves admitted and eventually fixed. And these 5D3 samples hint at the issue being far worse on the 5D3 so what gives?

Shouldn't it be made known to Canon rather than hidden away until it's too late?

And I am not to the only to point this out.

And don't laugh it, make a nice print your nighttime city scape and when eery window it outline in black rings maybe you won't be laughing to much any more.

If Canon has said it's been fixed for the release models or there has been some explanations then how about stating that instead of just locking the thread for no apparent reason???


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## chito (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Why was the 5D3 black outlines thread locked???*

wow, that's a valid point, i didn't know about the 5D2.. was it a hardware or software issue?


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## YellowJersey (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Why was the 5D3 black outlines thread locked???*

Good point.


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## DJL329 (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Why was the 5D3 black outlines thread locked???*

With the 5D Mark II, the black dots were *clearly* visible on a 100% crop. In the sample image in the 5D Mark III black dot thread, the dots are *barely* visible at 400%.



chito said:


> wow, that's a valid point, i didn't know about the 5D2.. was it a hardware or software issue?



The problem on the 5D Mark II was corrected with a firmware update.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Why was the 5D3 black outlines thread locked???*



DJL329 said:


> With the 5D Mark II, the black dots were *clearly* visible on a 100% crop. In the sample image in the 5D Mark III black dot thread, the dots are *barely* visible at 400%.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Umm no these are visible at 100% too (I mean how did you think people noticed it again?) and are actually easier to spot and seem to occur under less extreme conditions.


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## DJL329 (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Why was the 5D3 black outlines thread locked???*



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> DJL329 said:
> 
> 
> > With the 5D Mark II, the black dots were *clearly* visible on a 100% crop. In the sample image in the 5D Mark III black dot thread, the dots are *barely* visible at 400%.
> ...



Because they're _looking_ for problems where none exist, that's why.

I found an example of the black dot issue from a 100% crop using the 5D Mark II:






http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/slrs/5d-mark-ii/black-pixels.htm

And here's the 400% crop example from the 5D Mark III posted in the other thread:






So, as anyone can clearly see, there is no comparison. And _that's_ why the other thread was closed.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Why was the 5D3 black outlines thread locked???*



DJL329 said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > DJL329 said:
> ...



It's not clear for sure, but it shows some similarities, it seems to appear only along the brightest of all edges. What about the chunk of snow on the snowboarder pic where the left side is all lined in black? 

Since when do stars have black circles around them on a blue background?
When do chunks of ice get outlines in black?
Something weird is going on.

And no people were not going around at 400% view looking for problems. The second I opened the image (normally) I was boom what is that??? And the same happened when others saw it.

Now maybe it's just that the new sharpening algorithm had white halos undertuned and black halo over-tuned and it won't be there in the RAW file, but at the least it is a badly tuned sharpening algorithm in the in cam jpg engine. At worst it is some form the black dot issue again.














Actually looking more closely some of the outlines are at full 0,0,0 so maybe it's not quite the same or maybe they only partially fixed or maybe it's just something screwy in their sharpness+NR algorithm for in cam jpgs (which won't affect RAW files one bit, unlike the true black dots issue). It's still a bit bizarre to use sample images where the algorithms have been so poorly tuned to this point even if it is just the latter. And it may help to explain why some are saying some of the samples just have such a weird, weird look even outside of the often heavy handed NR.

It does show up pretty much only near extreme whites though, but yeah since some of the outlines are not 0,0,0 it might have to be something else (or a partial fix?).


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## pedro (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 black outlines - something weird with in cam jpg sharpening+NR (or maybe*

These samples were taken with a *pre-production unit*, right? I guess Canon are aware of it and might have it fixed once the first batch hits the street, or yes a firmware update will do.


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## thenickdude (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 black outlines - something weird with in cam jpg sharpening+NR (or maybe*

That snow example has (to my eye) a white halo of similar magnitude on the inside of the edge, so it really looks like a sharpening issue instead of some sensor problem.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 black outlines - something weird with in cam jpg sharpening+NR (or maybe*



thenickdude said:


> That snow example has (to my eye) a white halo of similar magnitude on the inside of the edge, so it really looks like a sharpening issue instead of some sensor problem.



Yeah I am starting to think that it may just be that they tuned the sharpening weirdly.

I was once working with a sharpning algorithm where you could tune the white and the black halo oveshoot and it seems they just had it tuned very weirdly at that point (hopefully not still, although I do mostly shoot RAWs so it's not end of the world, but it would be a bit nasty for the times you do want to shot in cam jpgs) to where they had strong outer black haloes.


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## altenae (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 black outlines - something weird with in cam jpg sharpening+NR (or maybe*

Check Digvis sharpening example here:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&thread=40798618


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## K-amps (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 black outlines - something weird with in cam jpg sharpening+NR (or maybe*



altenae said:


> Check Digvis sharpening example here:
> 
> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&thread=40798618


Looks like a sharpening software issue..


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## eeek (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 black outlines - something weird with in cam jpg sharpening+NR (or maybe*

By the way- that Ken Rockwell article is wonderful. It really should be read before this thread is.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 black outlines - something weird with in cam jpg sharpening+NR (or maybe*



K-amps said:


> altenae said:
> 
> 
> > Check Digvis sharpening example here:
> ...




Yes, i'm 99% sure I was wrong. At first glance it looked like the black dots issue since it was seen only around the blown out white parts and most sharpening plus NR algorithms are not to rob so many details and still leave such major halos and they are more often lighter than darker but yeah it seems they just over-tuned the black halo settings.

They are using a nastily tuned sharpening algorithm though that isn't tuned well and is much too prone to suffering from black halo overshoot, they appear to have tuned the white halos away nicely but over-tuned the black halos. So lots of the in cam jpg samples have a slightly weird look to them.

For RAW shooters this won't matter in the slightest. 

For JPG shooters it will matter unless they have fixed it since these images were shot a few months ago.

It is a bit sloppy that Canon is using such terrible quality samples. They always do, but these are, in many ways the worst sample set yet for any of their bodies. Very bizarre.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffer black dots (EDIT: just poorly tuned sharpening+NR in cam jpg algo)*

Anyway, sorry for the false alarm.

(they should fine tune their sharpening algorithm for in cam jogs though, assuming they have not in the months since the samples were taken, they are overshooting the black halos too aggressively)


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## Fleetie (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*



Astrogarden said:


> As an experienced astro-photographer, I can tell you that black halos around stars are quite common with almost any type of camera, including dedicated astro-cameras which are basically chip only. Stars, especially near the edge of a frame, are possibly the single most demanding subject in any kind of photography - period. They are small, should be perfectly round, should not exhibit color fringes or halos. They are very demanding of optics and chips and processing. Any small flaw in any of the above can and will cause problems, sometimes these issues show up as dark halos.



Yes, they are essentially examples of the Dirac Delta Function, a spike with infinite height (brightness, here), zero width (their width cannot be resolves because they are so small because so distant (except a very few, like Betelgeuse)), and unit area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_delta_function

Applying a Delta function as input to any system (amplifier) and measuring the output from that system will in theory tell you everything about the response of that system.

In any non-ideal system, you expect to see "crap" coming out in response; that "crap" contains information about the response of the system.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 suffers from the black dots problem of the early 5D2*



Astrogarden said:


> As an experienced astro-photographer, I can tell you that black halos around stars are quite common with almost any type of camera, including dedicated astro-cameras which are basically chip only. Stars, especially near the edge of a frame, are possibly the single most demanding subject in any kind of photography - period. They are small, should be perfectly round, should not exhibit color fringes or halos. They are very demanding of optics and chips and processing. Any small flaw in any of the above can and will cause problems, sometimes these issues show up as dark halos.



It's more just the sharpening since it also happens to same degree for the large chunks of flying snow, etc.

But again, sorry, my mistake, it does not appear to be the 5D2 black dots thing again. That left 0,0,0 signal in RAW files and behaved a bit differently. 

Sorry again.

(although my post and others who posted on it elsewhere do bring up the valid point that the in cam jpg sharpening+ NR algos are not, or at least were not back when these were taken, tuned well, it doesn't hurt to bring that to attention)


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## SiliconVoid (Mar 4, 2012)

It does not really matter if it is showing up.
The two things to keep in mind is one, it is unfortunately part of digital photography (as opposed to film) and all cameras do it. The manufacturers do all kinds of digital artifact mapping for each sensor design. If the compression algorithm is not addressing it then Canon will fix it. Which brings us to the second, Canon tweaked the algorithm in the 5DmkII and will fix it in the mkIII - if it even actually exists beyond those early preproduction test units.

I know everyone is excited, and need something to do until the mkIII begins shipping and/or until they save up their money but this is not productive in any way. Canon has a long list of things they know to look for based on the lineage of the 5D series.
- I suggest you go outside and take some pictures.


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