# Canon EOS-1D X Mark III field testing has begun [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Feb 21, 2019)

> We’re told that the follow-up to the Canon EOS-1D X Mark II has begun field testing with a very small number of photographers and/or engineers. The Canon EOS-1D X Mark II was announced on February 1, 2016. This makes an imminent announcement seem highly unlikely.
> 2020 is an Olympic year and it just so happens that the summer games are in Tokyo, Japan and Canon is a huge Olympic sponsor, and will likely be an even bigger one with the games being in their home country.
> We have no idea what the specifications for the camera will be at this time, and we don’t expect an announcement until the very end of 2019 at the earliest. An announcement ahead of CP+ 2020 next February wouldn’t surprise us.
> Whenever it does come, will this be the last of the Canon EOS-1D series of DSLRs?



Continue reading...


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## Chaitanya (Feb 21, 2019)

Interesting, knowing how aggressively Canon has gone to RF mount.


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## Del Paso (Feb 21, 2019)

Really good news from Canon, I'm also hoping for a EOS 5D V !


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## Tom W (Feb 21, 2019)

It will be very interesting to see what Canon brings to the table. Competition is stronger than it's been in years.


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## padam (Feb 21, 2019)

With all these development announcements, they don't need to show anything as a teaser, the sound of a burst should do the job


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## Sharlin (Feb 21, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Interesting, knowing how aggressively Canon has gone to RF mount.



There's little chance that they could get a 1DX level R body out before the games, and even less chance that they could get photographers to switch. A comprehensive selection of R sports lenses won't be there either.


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## tron (Feb 21, 2019)

Nice


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## tron (Feb 21, 2019)

Del Paso said:


> Really good news from Canon, I'm also hoping for a EOS 5D V !


Me too! Logically it will follow 1DxIII


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## docsmith (Feb 21, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> There's little chance that they could get a 1DX level R body out before the games, and even less chance that they could get photographers to switch. A comprehensive selection of R sports lenses won't be there either.


Have you seen an account where the EF to RF converters did not work flawlessly? So far, I have seen nothing but praise. I do not think glass would be an issue and I do not know what Canon has up their sleeve internally for the next R, but considering they've been working on DPAF since the 70D, I do wonder how far off a Professional R camera really is. As noted above, Canon has been dropping a lot of resources into the segment.

That said, I am happy to see a DSLR rumor. As I've been reading/watching about the RF/EOS R and looking at all my EF glass, I have started to wonder if I won't just stay in the EF-DSLR world for awhile. I could use a converter with a new R body (once one I want is announced), but I know as soon as I have one I am going to want RF lenses and that is where $$$ starts flowing from my bank account.


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## padam (Feb 21, 2019)

Maybe it will be a further evolution (R is supposed to be the revolution...) and besides being a new standard for speed, they will simply add in things that were left out before without compromising durability.

Things like wifi, C-Log, newer codecs, 4k 10-bit HDMI out, true silent mode in LV, all the DPAF focus modes enabled, intervalometer, full touchscreen(probably still fixed), dual CFast, etc.

Of course, if they want to raise eyebrows, they might do a hybrid OVF/EVF as well...


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## criscokkat (Feb 21, 2019)

If the sensors are newer die shrunk layers behind the sensor layer the readout should be much faster. If they've gone elsewhere with manufacturing their digic 9 chipsets faster computations and clock speeds can make a big difference. 

The tracking tests for the R show that while it shoots slow, the focus is nearly perfect with the shots it foes manage to capture. What seems to be needed more than anything is just more raw speed of said processing.


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## tron (Feb 21, 2019)

padam said:


> Maybe it will be a further evolution (R is supposed to be the revolution...) and besides being a new standard for speed, they will simply add in things that were left out before without compromising durability.
> 
> Things like wifi, C-Log, newer codecs, 4k 10-bit HDMI out, true silent mode in LV, all the DPAF focus modes enabled, intervalometer, full touchscreen(probably still fixed), dual CFast, etc.
> 
> Of course, if they want to raise eyebrows, they might do a hybrid OVF/EVF as well...


EOS R is not a revolution sensor wise. Now all the above are welcome additions but a higher resolution (say 24Mp ) with even better performance at low and high iso would be perfect


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## proutprout (Feb 21, 2019)

Guys be ready for 30fps at 1080p, yes, Canon for the Olympics, will degrade the new bodies so you have to buy the old ones back again !


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## Nelu (Feb 21, 2019)

proutprout said:


> Guys be ready for 30fps at 1080p, yes, Canon for the Olympics, will degrade the new bodies so you have to buy the old ones back again !


*"proutprout*
Im New Troll Here"

Welcome to Canonrumors. with your optimism and inside knowledge, it's good to have you here!


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## Ladislav (Feb 21, 2019)

tron said:


> Me too! Logically it will follow 1DxIII



And have no mirror and RF mount ...


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## padam (Feb 21, 2019)

tron said:


> EOS R is not a revolution sensor wise. Now all the above are welcome additions but a higher resolution (say 24Mp ) with even better performance at low and high iso would be perfect


It will be a new sensor (as always) and 24MP seems logical, although the video folks will be annoyed by the increased 4k crop factor.


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## Architect1776 (Feb 21, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Interesting, knowing how aggressively Canon has gone to RF mount.



It shows they can't yet make a true heavy duty pro mirrorless yet. That is smart seeing that unless the pro mirrorless hits it out of the ball park, to go with what works. And with all the new pro/long EF lenses just introduced this makes a lot of sense.
I am still cheering for a pro level mirrorless like the 5D or D850 sooner than later.
Once that happens I will upgrade my old 7D.


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## Architect1776 (Feb 21, 2019)

padam said:


> Maybe it will be a further evolution (R is supposed to be the revolution...) and besides being a new standard for speed, they will simply add in things that were left out before without compromising durability.
> 
> Things like wifi, C-Log, newer codecs, 4k 10-bit HDMI out, true silent mode in LV, all the DPAF focus modes enabled, intervalometer, full touchscreen(probably still fixed), dual CFast, etc.
> 
> Of course, if they want to raise eyebrows, they might do a hybrid OVF/EVF as well...



Might be a good time to introduce the CF Express into the lexicon.


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## dolina (Feb 21, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Interesting, knowing how aggressively Canon has gone to RF mount.


You would think they'll release an A9 & A7R3 rival with SDXC UHS-II support before July 2020.


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## kingrobertii (Feb 21, 2019)

These are the rumors I like to hear


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## dolina (Feb 21, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> There's little chance that they could get a 1DX level R body out before the games, and even less chance that they could get photographers to switch. A comprehensive selection of R sports lenses won't be there either.


Sony appears to have done that with their A9. Canon has at least 2 more RF bodies to release within 17 months.


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## unfocused (Feb 21, 2019)

24 mp might be a bit too conservative even for the 1Dx line, 28-30 mp might be more likely. Autofocus should be where they concentrate their improvements (I expect to see an improved autofocus introduced with the 7dIII, as well) The market for the 1Dx series is conservative -- pros who want rock solid reliability and no surprises. Improvements will be incremental. They will add full touch screen, wifi and up the frame rate a notch. This won't be the last 1Dx DSLR, but there may be a 1Dx R introduced in about three years that will be sold alongside the DSLR for at least another generation. Pro 1Dx users will likely be the last group to move to mirrorless (if indeed they ever do). Canon will keep making and selling DSLRs as long as the demand is there.


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## nitram (Feb 21, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> If the sensors are newer die shrunk layers behind the sensor layer the readout should be much faster. If they've gone elsewhere with manufacturing their digic 9 chipsets faster computations and clock speeds can make a big difference.
> 
> The tracking tests for the R show that while it shoots slow, the focus is nearly perfect with the shots it foes manage to capture. What seems to be needed more than anything is just more raw speed of said processing.



Faster computations coupled with improved tracking algorithms. It is the only way to do it!


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## PureClassA (Feb 21, 2019)

No. The 1D line will continue. They may one day go mirrorless but they will maintain the size and weight. These cameras are made how they are to balance better with Canon’s larger glass.


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## padam (Feb 21, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> Might be a good time to introduce the CF Express into the lexicon.


Makes no sense at all if Canon is not part of that association, and CFast does the job for now anyway, and existing users will not want to switch cards yet again.


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## [email protected] (Feb 21, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> There's little chance that they could get a 1DX level R body out before the games, and even less chance that they could get photographers to switch. A comprehensive selection of R sports lenses won't be there either.



We may see both a Pro Canon EOS R and a Canon EF 1D MK 3, with Canon's aggressive schedule of lenses we probably see the fast short focal primes 1.2 - 1.4, f2.8 and f4's up to 200mm and possibly a RF 100-400 f3.5 - f5.6. Anything above that will still be an excellent EF prime lens used with their excellent adaptors.

Be hard to get users to dump their large prime EF lenses for RF equivalents where they may want to use them both on EF Pro bodies and also on Mirror EOS R bodies.

We probably see a similar approach to above from Nikon as well.


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## djack41 (Feb 21, 2019)

Nelu said:


> *"proutprout*
> Im New Troll Here"
> 
> Welcome to Canonrumors. with your optimism and inside knowledge, it's good to have you here!


Just some humor, guys.


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## YuengLinger (Feb 21, 2019)

The last generation of wooly mammoths...


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## PureClassA (Feb 21, 2019)

[email protected] said:


> ...with Canon's aggressive schedule of lenses we probably see the fast short focal primes 1.2 - 1.4, f2.8 and f4's up to 200mm and possibly a RF 100-400 f3.5 - f5.6.
> 
> ...Be hard to get users to dump their large prime EF lenses for RF equivalents where they may want to use them both on EF Pro bodies and also on Mirror EOS R bodies.



That's where the potential 1dx Mk? magic may happen. With the RF design, Canon could rebuild (over the LONG term) a lot of these go-to telephoto lenses like the 300, 400, 600, 200-400, etc... with less weight and be shorter OR potentially even larger max apertures (instead of making the lens smaller). Could they make a 200-400L at f 2.8 with the RF design? Dunno. Might try. Or make the 200-400 f4 smaller and lighter.


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## fox40phil (Feb 21, 2019)

So give the EOS R-Sports/Pro another 4-5 years after the release of the next and last 1DX.


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## melgross (Feb 21, 2019)

If this is out in 2020, which seems will be the case, then it’s good until 2023, maybe late in the year. So it should be the last of its line. If Canon can’t get a true pro mirrorless out before then, it will be a real problem. If they do, it likely won’t be this year. Again, maybe in 2020. Then, it will be elegable for an update in 2023. That would mean the second gen for that at the same time the life of the 1D might be ready to expire.

The timing will be just right. Announce the discontinuation of the 1D, and the introduction of the second gen mirrorless Pro model at the same time.

I imagine that Pro glass for the R mount will be in excellent supply by then, going by what’s already announced for this year. The very longest lenses can linger for a couple more years beyond that.


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## GMCPhotographics (Feb 21, 2019)

Its fair to say then...that there's no Eos 1dr coming anytime soon then. If the next high frame rate pro camera is a 1DXIII DSLR....it's safe to say that EF is here for while....especially at the top end of the market...it's an accuracy thing and that sports and wildlife shooters want an optical viewfinder. I think it's also fair to say that the reports of a pro R coming are probably a high resolution 5DSR replacement that's being ported to the Rf mount....so it'll be a low frame rate camera and not the kind of "Pro" many readers were thinking. 
I think it's safe to say that the 1Dx and 5D range will stay EF for some time to come. The Rf mount will be pro...but probably sitting along side EF for a long while until Canon can make the software driven dual pixel AF match the 1DxII's capabilities. Until then...pro-sumer / photo journalists only.


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## GMCPhotographics (Feb 21, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> It shows they can't yet make a true heavy duty pro mirrorless yet. That is smart seeing that unless the pro mirrorless hits it out of the ball park, to go with what works. And with all the new pro/long EF lenses just introduced this makes a lot of sense.
> I am still cheering for a pro level mirrorless like the 5D or D850 sooner than later.
> Once that happens I will upgrade my old 7D.


You've made a good point here. No one in their right mind will replace a 1DxII with something that's not as competent. So the Rf Pro (1Dr?) would need to be sufficiently better for a working pro to chop in their great whites and Pro DSLR's. Canon can't make a half baked Pro Rf...they have to literally knock it out of the park and into orbit to generate the competitive need to chop formats. I'm guessing Canon already have worked that out and are waiting until they have cracked that particular nut in a major way....in the mean time...oh...here's an Rp...it's very nice...


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## degos (Feb 21, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> Could they make a 200-400L at f 2.8 with the RF design? Dunno. Might try.



No because the focal ratio is still determined by the *effective* telephoto focal length, not the physical length. So even if an RF lens reduced the physical length by 20mm, that wouldn't reduce the size of the front element.


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## Sean C (Feb 21, 2019)

unfocused said:


> 24 mp might be a bit too conservative even for the 1Dx line, 28-30 mp might be more likely. Autofocus should be where they concentrate their improvements (I expect to see an improved autofocus introduced with the 7dIII, as well) The market for the 1Dx series is conservative -- pros who want rock solid reliability and no surprises.



I think it all hinges on how capable Canon is able to make the dual pixel focus, and what impact that has on sensor quality. (missing pixels for the AF sensors, heat, electrical noise) That's also going to drive whether an R 5Dsr-ish body appears, as we don't know how small the dual pixel AF sensels can be with good performance, or whether sales volume can justify a new revision of that body. Otherwise a high rez studio body seems like something that'd show off the new top tier glass and be used for things where accuracy is more important than AF speed which also seems to be a good fit. 
For the new 1D, I expect Canon will try to put the very best sensor AF in whichever body they'd like to be the last 1D. That way 1D buyers will see the AF performance for themselves and either be comfortable with switching or give Canon feedback in time for Canon to adjust before releasing a 1D/R body.
Still though, why the hell is the viewfinder lined up over the lens on a mirrorless? Move that damn thing to the edge like a range finder so my nose has room, dammit. Every time I move back to landscape that annoys me with an SLR, so why continue with a mirrorless?!? Don't make new bodies look like SLRs, make them ergonomic! /rant (I guess this is just my pet peeve, but still - why compromise comfort? Make it look like classic Canon rangefinder if you must have it look like a film camera...)


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## Pape (Feb 21, 2019)

I bet next R camera and 1dx3 are both 35mpix cameras so they can do 8k .
Doesnt sound logical they make highpixel R next ,for marginal highpixel camera user base .
They need good 35mpixel camere next for R


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## GMCPhotographics (Feb 21, 2019)

tron said:


> EOS R is not a revolution sensor wise. Now all the above are welcome additions but a higher resolution (say 24Mp ) with even better performance at low and high iso would be perfect


That's certainly true. I think all of the Eos R and Rp's R&D budget went on the mount and dual pixel AF...it's pretty obvious that Canon went parts raiding for their sensor!


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## jeffa4444 (Feb 21, 2019)

They have already said the EOS R series are not replacements for the DSLRs. Some people prefer optical viewfinders & you can certainly see the difference between the 5D series and the EOS R being much shaper optically (I certainly noticed this as good as the EOS electronic finder is its not up to an optical finder). 
Some people still prefer the larger size. Ive also found some things similar and others very different & for the first time in years I have to think about using the EOS R over any of my DSLRs.


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## ken (Feb 21, 2019)

"We’re told that the follow-up to the Canon EOS-1D X Mark II has begun field testing with a very small number of photographers and/or engineers." 

I'm sure someone here has a feel for the average lead time of a Canon pro model field test to announcement / release. What would that be? 9 months? A year?


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## RayValdez360 (Feb 21, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> If the sensors are newer die shrunk layers behind the sensor layer the readout should be much faster. If they've gone elsewhere with manufacturing their digic 9 chipsets faster computations and clock speeds can make a big difference.
> 
> The tracking tests for the R show that while it shoots slow, the focus is nearly perfect with the shots it foes manage to capture. What seems to be needed more than anything is just more raw speed of said processing.


the last couple of 1Ds had dual processors or the most powerful types at the moment. that helped make the cameras faster.


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 21, 2019)

Pape said:


> I bet next R camera and 1dx3 are both 35mpix cameras so they can do 8k .
> Doesnt sound logical they make highpixel R next ,for marginal highpixel camera user base .
> They need good 35mpixel camere next for R



35 mpx (slightly better ISO/DR), dual card slot, IBIS, better eyeAF. 

That would be enough for me to buy into RF system.


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## Nelu (Feb 21, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> The last generation of wooly mammoths...


And why is that, if I may ask?
What is it about mirrorless technology that makes it so much superior to a DSLR, *for the 1D series*?
A camera is a tool, just like a hammer. Are you gonna get rid of the black hammers because the red ones look better ...and have better DR..., even if they aren't any lighter or more durable?
I can see some benefits for the lower tier cameras, especially silent shutter for concerts, weddings, etc, but who the hell cares about the mirror slapping on a stadium with thousands of people yelling from their guts?
Camera size? No difference, and if there is one, that would be a mistake from Canon. Just image an A9 with a 600mm lens; just ridiculous!
Camera weight? Same as above.
EVF instead of OVF; which one would you prefer to use for a long time, like a couple of hours?
WYSIWYG? Pro's know better than that; they don't need to see the picture before they take it. Especially for night sport events, it's all a compromise and the exposure triangle is set in stone: 1/1000s, F/2.8, ISO 3200 or 6400, give or take.
In harsh conditions the woolly mammoths will survive while the butt-naked elephants will not


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## kaptainkatsu (Feb 21, 2019)

Love how people who don't use a 1DX style body think 1DX users want a small compact body and RF big whites. RF Superteles are a long way away. These aren't lenses we buy every time they are updated, they stay in the library a very long time and we need maximum compatibility with all bodies.


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## padam (Feb 21, 2019)

ken said:


> I'm sure someone here has a feel for the average lead time of a Canon pro model field test to announcement / release. What would that be? 9 months? A year?


Also connected to the product cycle, replacing the 1DX Mark II after ~ 4 years seems logical.
There are always conflicting news, for instance, the 5D IV was already rumored to be under testing in May 2015 and it only got released after the 1DX Mark II in August 2016 (with lots of fake rumors during that period)


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## kaptainkatsu (Feb 21, 2019)

RayValdez360 said:


> the last couple of 1Ds had dual processors or the most powerful types at the moment. that helped make the cameras faster.


3 actually.


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## Random Orbits (Feb 21, 2019)

Pape said:


> I bet next R camera and 1dx3 are both 35mpix cameras so they can do 8k .
> Doesnt sound logical they make highpixel R next ,for marginal highpixel camera user base .
> They need good 35mpixel camere next for R



I hope not. The rumor was that the next 5DS would be an R, so you want everyone to be happy going from 50 to 35 MP, with the R already sitting at 30MP? That makes no sense, especially when Sony and Nikon are pushing MPs higher. And why would Canon do full sensor 8k implementation when they can't even do 4k, and this is for the next R body that is supposed to be announced later this year? If anything, 8K from a camera is more niche than your "highpixel camera user base."


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## davidhfe (Feb 21, 2019)

Nelu said:


> What is it about mirrorless technology that makes it so much superior to a DSLR, *for the 1D series*?



Autofocus and frame rate. I am in 100% agreement that it is not there yet on AF, but a 36mp DPAF sensor is simply going to allow the camera to make better focus decisions than a PDAF module + 300k metering sensor. Yes, it's a lot of processing needed. No, TI (or whomever supplies Digic these days) is not there yet. In five years' time though autofocus is going to be mind-reading good. And there's simply a physical limit on how many times you can toss a mirror up and down in a second. The A9 has already blown canon out of the water on frame rate and it's because of reasons inherent to the mirrorless design.


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## kaptainkatsu (Feb 21, 2019)

davidhfe said:


> Autofocus and frame rate. I am in 100% agreement that it is not there yet on AF, but a 36mp DPAF sensor is simply going to allow the camera to make better focus decisions than a PDAF module + 300k metering sensor. Yes, it's a lot of processing needed. No, TI (or whomever supplies Digic these days) is not there yet. In five years' time though autofocus is going to be mind-reading good. And there's simply a physical limit on how many times you can toss a mirror up and down in a second. The A9 has already blown canon out of the water on frame rate and it's because of reasons inherent to the mirrorless design.



20fps can only be achieved in certain use cases on the a9


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## Pape (Feb 21, 2019)

Random Orbits said:


> I hope not. The rumor was that the next 5DS would be an R, so you want everyone to be happy going from 50 to 35 MP, with the R already sitting at 30MP? That makes no sense, especially when Sony and Nikon are pushing MPs higher. And why would Canon do full sensor 8k implementation when they can't even do 4k, and this is for the next R body that is supposed to be announced later this year? If anything, 8K from a camera is more niche than your "highpixel camera user base."


just referring rumour what says they want be on first line when 8k comes.. i guess you right, there are probably as many people who want buy hightmegapixel camera than those who wants buy action frame rate camera


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## sdz (Feb 21, 2019)

If the next 1D X camera will have a mirror, as this report suggests, and if Canon will release a 'Pro' R body, as Canon has suggested it would, then Canon will likely take one of three paths:

1. Canon will debut a new sensor platform with this 'Pro' R camera

2. Canon will use an old sensor platform and merely increase the pixel count

3. Canon will debut a new sensor platform and give a large pixel count (75 MP).

Canon patent applications tell us and Canon executives have intimated that Canon will address the sensor gap that exists between it and Sony sensor based cameras. Since the next 1D X camera will have a mirror and since Canon eventually will release a new and improved sensor platform, my guess is that Canon will choose path 3, the new sensor, large pixel count option for the R. It will be comparatively easier for Canon to develop the new sensor platform with a large MP sensor meant to be used by landscape and portrait photographers. For them, frame rates are unimportant. This path would buy time for Canon while it develops a 5D IV replacement on the R platform, a camera able to shoot sporting events and wildlife, a camera with the sensor readout speeds and computational power to compete with the best Sony has to offer.

But, I might be wrong about this. I expected Canon to release a camera that had an EF/R hybrid for its mount! That did not work out well, for me. The R mount has been an unqualified success, for Canon.


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## [email protected] (Feb 21, 2019)

CanonGuy, this is a little ambiguous. Did you mean to say it's going to be a 1dx3 (and therefor a dslr), or did you mean more generically the successor to the 1dx2? In other words, did the rumor specifically indicate DSLR, or merely that there is a successor being tested?


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## davidhfe (Feb 21, 2019)

kaptainkatsu said:


> 20fps can only be achieved in certain use cases on the a9



Sure. And what's the difference between the 1DX2's 14 and 16fps modes? The latter can only be done with live view.

Look, if folks love their OVFs I'm not gonna argue with 'em. But the mechanics of articulating a mirror up and down 14 times a second is a huge limiting factor, especially when you think about all the stuff that has to *also* happen when the mirror is up or down (shutter curtains/the actual exposure, metering, focus, etc) and waiting for the damn thing to settle down (the mirror bounces for almost as long as it spends in motion)

Mirrorless removes an insanely complicated optical path and reduces the mechanical complexity at the expense of processing required to work with the increased data off the sensor. If I were designing a camera (and thank god I'm not) I know which problem I'd rather be trying to solve.


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## degos (Feb 21, 2019)

Mirrorless also eliminates vast amouts of vibration when that mirror is flapping at 14fps, which is vibration that the lens IS doesn't entirely eliminate. And when it's busy fighting that vibration it still has to deal with the photographer's sweaty, excited, trembling hands.

Eliminating the flap also means that mirrorless cameras can pre-cache shots, such as in the short but measurable period of time between the photographer achieving focus with AF-ON button and his finger pushing the trigger down. Once the lock is achieved, a mirrorless camera can start shooting. If he doesn't push the button within a second or two, discard the frames. If he does, just save them to the card with the shots he 'commanded' and maybe the camera has bagged him a winner. That millisecond which caught the bat on the ball, or the two aeroplanes crossing...


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## Viggo (Feb 21, 2019)

I’m both relieved and disappointed in myself for not caring all that much about a new 1-series, that’s the first time since before the release of the 1d3... weird...

It will be fun to see how they improve the 1dx2, although I know I’m not buying. It will be epic.


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## flip314 (Feb 21, 2019)

sdz said:


> If the next 1D X camera will have a mirror, as this report suggests, and if Canon will release a 'Pro' R body, as Canon has suggested it would, then Canon will likely take one of three paths:
> 
> 1. Canon will debut a new sensor platform with this 'Pro' R camera
> 
> ...



I strongly suspect that Canon is waiting for a new sensor to debut the Pro R (and that it explains their delay in releasing one). I think they would have released a Pro R already if they thought they could, but with all the flack they got for recycling sensors in the R and RP could you imagine if they did it in an even more expensive camera? I don't think it would fly at all.


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## Sharlin (Feb 21, 2019)

docsmith said:


> Have you seen an account where the EF to RF converters did not work flawlessly? So far, I have seen nothing but praise. I do not think glass would be an issue and I do not know what Canon has up their sleeve internally for the next R, but considering they've been working on DPAF since the 70D, I do wonder how far off a Professional R camera really is. As noted above, Canon has been dropping a lot of resources into the segment.



Yes, the adapters work perfectly. It would still be beyond embarrassing for Canon to offer a true flagship camera in mirrorless form and just tell all the pros to use adapters.

The 1DX3 target audience is nothing if not sticklers to what has been battle-tested and proven to work, both ergonomically and tech-wise. It makes sense that they're pretty much the last to switch to mirrorless, a tech which mostly doesn't make their work easier compared to a DSLR.

The reason I said Canon is a long way from 1DX level mirrorless is the fact that even though DPAF is precise and tracks well, Canon seems to have a real problem with throughput and Servo AF. Show me an R body that shoots at least 8fps with Servo AF, nailing a large majority of shots and with minimal EVF blackout/slowdown, and I start believing that Canon has what it takes to build an R body with AF performance that 1DX users are used to.


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## Sharlin (Feb 21, 2019)

dolina said:


> Sony appears to have done that with their A9. Canon has at least 2 more RF bodies to release within 17 months.



Yes, but Sony does not have the sort of problem with continuous AF and FPS that Canon appears to.


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## Nelu (Feb 21, 2019)

degos said:


> Mirrorless also eliminates vast amouts of vibration when that mirror is flapping at 14fps, which is vibration that the lens IS doesn't entirely eliminate. And when it's busy fighting that vibration it still has to deal with the photographer's sweaty, excited, trembling hands.
> 
> Eliminating the flap also means that mirrorless cameras can pre-cache shots, such as in the short but measurable period of time between the photographer achieving focus with AF-ON button and his finger pushing the trigger down. Once the lock is achieved, a mirrorless camera can start shooting. If he doesn't push the button within a second or two, discard the frames. If he does, just save them to the card with the shots he 'commanded' and maybe the camera has bagged him a winner. That millisecond which caught the bat on the ball, or the two aeroplanes crossing...


IBIS and lens stabilization are totally irrelevant for a sports camera. What you need to worry is the very fast subjects motion blur, not your shaky hands.
It would only matter for video, of course. Now, is the 1D form factor something you would use for video? I wouldn't, because it's just too big. Smaller bodies would be better suited for that task. 
Just my 2 cents...


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 21, 2019)

unfocused said:


> 24 mp might be a bit too conservative even for the 1Dx line, 28-30 mp might be more likely. Autofocus should be where they concentrate their improvements (I expect to see an improved autofocus introduced with the 7dIII, as well) The market for the 1Dx series is conservative -- pros who want rock solid reliability and no surprises. Improvements will be incremental. They will add full touch screen, wifi and up the frame rate a notch. This won't be the last 1Dx DSLR, but there may be a 1Dx R introduced in about three years that will be sold alongside the DSLR for at least another generation. Pro 1Dx users will likely be the last group to move to mirrorless (if indeed they ever do). Canon will keep making and selling DSLRs as long as the demand is there.



I think the number of people who would feel a +2 fps upgrade to the new 1D model was worthwhile is *much* smaller than the number of people who would put up money for one if their was a +5-10 megapixel upgrade. The frame rate is pretty good - better than needed for most uses. The resolution is not so good for a number of applications, to the point where the 1D isn't considered the best Canon camera for some people. But I see no evidence that Canon has the capability of putting through more than 280 megapixels per second (14/[email protected]) while using three Digics in one ginormous body, and I doubt they would lower the maximum fps at full resolution. My guess is they have the capability of giving about 10 fps at 30 mp and would require the 1D form factor to give it enough of a heat and power envelope. Just don't see them doing it. It also appears that to do the equivalent in mirrorless leaves only a portion of the required processing capacity available. A 1R might do 8fps at 30mp (in servo, which is about 3 times as fast as the current R in servo) and need to be as large as the DSLR variant. 

If they came out with either such increased megapixel upgrade, I'd definitely buy. But if they came out with a DSLR with +2 fps and some of the obvious upgrades, like the touch screen the 2dx2 inexplicably lacked at launch, etc., I'd buy a used 1dx2 after they came down to $2.5-2.8k used if I wanted to stay with Canon, or - like as not - look seriously at alternatives.

I'm in limbo now. I bought an R yesterday, and it's interesting, but annoying in some ways. I was surprised how much less usable the touch screen focus point manipulation is on the R versus the M5. I was expecting it to be at least as fast as the M5 I once owned. I bought the R to stick a 50 1.2 R on it, and that's impressive, but I'm not sure I'll keep them if it doesn't get easier as I learn to use it better. Images are just like those from my 5D4s, not surprisingly, so that's adequate. It is, however, unacceptably slow in the frame rate department.

All this makes me think that if Canon doesn't prove it's ability to throw lots of megapixels (at least 30) through to a memory card more than 8-10 times per second in a mirrorless body, then it doesn't make sense for me to invest in EF glass (on the way out) nor R bodies (not capable enough). If the 2020 Olympics offering is a 1 series body upgrade about as incremental as the last one, I won't expect Canon will provide what I need, which would greatly sadden me. If they came out with a great 1 series upgrade, I might get that as a stop-gap to allow me to use current glass and give time for mirrorless to catch up. Not that other people's use cases aren't well taken care of by these current offerings. And not that the RF lenses are the most exciting thing happening in the industry right now from an academic perspective. Between now and that next release, I'm experimenting with both the R system, and I'm going to also play around with either the L mount stuff - once Sigma's glass comes out - or the next rev of the Sony A9 or A7r. Best case: Canon surprises us with something great. I have my fingers crossed, but I'm worried enough that I'm spending time and money exploring other things to do due diligence.


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## NorskHest (Feb 21, 2019)

kaptainkatsu said:


> Love how people who don't use a 1DX style body think 1DX users want a small compact body and RF big whites. RF Superteles are a long way away. These aren't lenses we buy every time they are updated, they stay in the library a very long time and we need maximum compatibility with all bodies.


It is comical that people in here think we who shoot professionally just go out and buy new shit at the drop of a hat or announcement. I shoot professional motocross and road racing, I work with people and magazines that supply and use 1dmkiv’s, 1dx mki’s, 300mm version ones and all sorts of old gear still. I use my 1dxmkii and a 1dc, for me and those like me to say I’m going to get rid of allllll my super telephotos and these two bodies that work perfectly for a few mega pixels or new mount with no proven reliability are high. I do video as well and I have a c200 for that, it will take something ungodly drastic to get me to replace my 1dxmkii and 1dc. If it is not getting me more money, then there is no reason to purchase. We want a big bulky durable camera that can get drenched, dropped, and beaten,familiar grip and button layout and not some lightweight camera that doesn’t balance out our super telephotos with terrrible ergonomics. Mega pixels will not make me or other professionals think we should get this new camera but if improved autofocus and 10bit internally recorded video to Cfast is a thing then yes we professionals will consider. I like Cfast, I like it a lot, and 2 Cfast slots would be nice but one is still fine, having a 1tb Cfast makes having a second slot close to moot. The 1dxmkii is an incredible and reliable camera, it will be hard to beat.


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## Don Haines (Feb 21, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Interesting, knowing how aggressively Canon has gone to RF mount.


Yes, although there is nothing to say that the 1DX3 will not be mirrorless  Wouldn’t that shake up the forum!


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## sdz (Feb 21, 2019)

flip314 said:


> I strongly suspect that Canon is waiting for a new sensor to debut the Pro R (and that it explains their delay in releasing one). I think they would have released a Pro R already if they thought they could, but with all the flack they got for recycling sensors in the R and RP could you imagine if they did it in an even more expensive camera? I don't think it would fly at all.



We assume that camera manufacturers primarily compete in the technology they bring to market. That's false, however. They compete over market share and profit rates. Brand pride aside, Canon will want to catch up to Sony in order to maintain its market share within the FF IL market. It will eventually need to bring technically competitive mirrorless cameras to market that will replace the 7D, 5D and 1D camera platforms. It will need to achieve this while the market for dedicated cameras shrinks.


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## digitalride (Feb 21, 2019)

docsmith said:


> Have you seen an account where the EF to RF converters did not work flawlessly?



I'm reluctant to even bring this up but I did see some idiot on some forum referencing this video as proof that using the adapter introduced focusing errors:





That isn't a scientific test and it really just compared the 6dii mirrored focusing system to the R focusing system. The 6dii mirror does better than the R, so its clear canon has a LONG way to go to replicate, let alone exceed 1dx level focusing without a mirror.

Unless canon makes pretty much the exact same version of a lens in both EF and RF mounts and puts the exact same focusing system into an EF body and an RF body we'll never know how the adapter might impact things. But I don't even see how it could negatively affect focusing performance as long as Canon doesn't intentionally cripple adapted lenses in software.

Some people seem to think "adapters = BAD BAD BAD no matter what" , and I can't understand it unless the adapter is not made well and is causing the lens to tilt on the mount. I really don't think pros will mind using EF lenses on RF bodies if that is the best tool for the job.


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## dolina (Feb 21, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Yes, but Sony does not have the sort of problem with continuous AF and FPS that Canon appears to.


Canon has 17 months to sort that out. The A9 was Sony's 1st mirrorless full frame sports body

A couple of SDXC UHS-II slots that can read/write at more than 300MB/s would be plenty nice.


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## Jester74 (Feb 21, 2019)

And the mirrorslapping goes on........


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## lightthief (Feb 21, 2019)

davidhfe said:


> Sure. And what's the difference between the 1DX2's 14 and 16fps modes? The latter can only be done with live view.
> 
> Look, if folks love their OVFs I'm not gonna argue with 'em. But the mechanics of articulating a mirror up and down 14 times a second is a huge limiting factor, especially when you think about all the stuff that has to *also* happen when the mirror is up or down (shutter curtains/the actual exposure, metering, focus, etc) and waiting for the damn thing to settle down (the mirror bounces for almost as long as it spends in motion)
> 
> Mirrorless removes an insanely complicated optical path and reduces the mechanical complexity at the expense of processing required to work with the increased data off the sensor. If I were designing a camera (and thank god I'm not) I know which problem I'd rather be trying to solve.



If the mirror movement limits the number of max. frames per second, then why not use the DPAF and take two or three pictures before the mirror moves back again. I think, pros are able to follow a bird or plane with short black out periods.
14 fps in classic mode, 28 with DPAF support.

But i do not know anything.


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## Architect1776 (Feb 21, 2019)

GMCPhotographics said:


> You've made a good point here. No one in their right mind will replace a 1DxII with something that's not as competent. So the Rf Pro (1Dr?) would need to be sufficiently better for a working pro to chop in their great whites and Pro DSLR's. Canon can't make a half baked Pro Rf...they have to literally knock it out of the park and into orbit to generate the competitive need to chop formats. I'm guessing Canon already have worked that out and are waiting until they have cracked that particular nut in a major way....in the mean time...oh...here's an Rp...it's very nice...



I like the way they are proceeding. Others have rushed in to be first and made real turkeys, example the screw drive AF. Canon waited 2 years before they replaced the F-1 with a pro AF camera the EOS 1. Also with digital they came out with other models until they were sure they had most all the boxes checked. They learned this when Nikon came out with the F and they had the R2000. They were destroyed in the pro realm until the EOS 1 was introduced and then they literally wiped the floor with Nikon and all others.


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## slclick (Feb 21, 2019)

Have experienced 1DXii users (those who use the correct or custom case settings) been complaining about not having the fps they need? 

Some folks here are great at disguising their lack of experience or ownership of certain models which they harp upon.


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## Architect1776 (Feb 21, 2019)

padam said:


> Makes no sense at all if Canon is not part of that association, and CFast does the job for now anyway, and existing users will not want to switch cards yet again.



The card is a minuscule cost compared to a 6,000 dollar camera. CFast is a dead format. But they might do it as you say as the last gasp for the CFast and the likely last Pro DSLR they make. But if they want to really bring out hyper fast shooting or FF 4K at 120p in this new pro camera the CFexpress would make more sense.
But who knows, I am just speculating as we all are.
Fun to do.


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## Architect1776 (Feb 21, 2019)

dolina said:


> Sony appears to have done that with their A9. Canon has at least 2 more RF bodies to release within 17 months.



How does the Sony a9 do overall as a pro level camera? There is more than just being fast.
Durability, long lenses, ie 600mm, 800mm, Ease of use including menus, and other checklist items that Canon and Nikon have that Sony completely lacks to this date.
Consumer/enthusiast/pixel peepers bells and whistles do not seem to be major factors to actual working pros around the world.


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## sanj (Feb 21, 2019)

Doubt it


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## Architect1776 (Feb 21, 2019)

Nelu said:


> And why is that, if I may ask?
> What is it about mirrorless technology that makes it so much superior to a DSLR, *for the 1D series*?
> A camera is a tool, just like a hammer. Are you gonna get rid of the black hammers because the red ones look better ...and have better DR..., even if they aren't any lighter or more durable?
> I can see some benefits for the lower tier cameras, especially silent shutter for concerts, weddings, etc, but who the hell cares about the mirror slapping on a stadium with thousands of people yelling from their guts?
> ...



I believe it is not the size nor the being mirrorless per se.
Canon will make the pro body the size it needs to be to be durable and easily handled including with gloves.
The 1D is not obsolete but there is newer technology that the R will take advantage of.
The option for lenses with the smaller front elements and elements pushed back further yet have the same aperture value.
This will make handling much better with the weight pulled back from the front of the camera.
If they have IBIS it will allow for less complex lenses and actually smaller in diameter? I would hope for.
We cannot predict all but The future will likely be a pro R, R1?


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## Architect1776 (Feb 21, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Yes, but Sony does not have the sort of problem with continuous AF and FPS that Canon appears to.



Actually Sony struggles with AF in video compared to Canon's DPAF.
Canon is very smooth and Sony is jerky and amateurish by comparison.
See reviews that are not fanboy of Sony. Very eye opening.


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## dolina (Feb 21, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> How does the Sony a9 do overall as a pro level camera? There is more than just being fast.
> Durability, long lenses, ie 600mm, 800mm, Ease of use including menus, and other checklist items that Canon and Nikon have that Sony completely lacks to this date.
> Consumer/enthusiast/pixel peepers bells and whistles do not seem to be major factors to actual working pros around the world.


A bird photographer friend of mine sold his 1DX2 for an A9 to match with his Canon 600 Series 2 lens. He's very happy with it and is not looking at moving back to DSLR.

Sony's lens lineup is not as expansive as Canon but they do have the f/2.8 16-35, 24-70 70-200 & 400. They have 17 months to roll out 600 or 800.

As for AF performance and accuracy I have yet to watch a YouTube review that dismisses the body for sports. It does take issue with number of native lenses and some ergonomics but that's about it.

All signs has Canon only spending R&D money for RF mount camera bodies. Why else announce the development a f/2.8 with IS 15-35, 24-70, 70-200 lens and future RF mount camera bodies with in body image stabalization (IBIS)?

My hope is that these bodies will sport a dual SDXC UHS-II or SDXC UHS-II + XQD memory slot rather than CFast.

I would be very surprised if they come out with a DSLR-based replacement of the 1DX2.


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## unfocused (Feb 21, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> The last generation of wooly mammoths...


Woolly mammoths existed for 5 million years and are likely to reappear sometime in the 20 years or so, so I guess 1Dx users have nothing to be worried about.


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## unfocused (Feb 21, 2019)

dolina said:


> ...All signs has Canon only spending R&D money for RF mount camera bodies. Why else announce the development a f/2.8 with IS 15-35, 24-70, 70-200 lens and future RF mount camera bodies with in body image stabalization (IBIS)?...



You might want to look this up


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## Sharlin (Feb 21, 2019)

lightthief said:


> If the mirror movement limits the number of max. frames per second, then why not use the DPAF and take two or three pictures before the mirror moves back again. I think, pros are able to follow a bird or plane with short black out periods.
> 14 fps in classic mode, 28 with DPAF support.



Because as of now, continuous DPAF + Live View (including EVF view) throughput is much bigger a bottleneck that the mirror. The 1DX2 does NOT have Servo autofocus in Live View! The 16fps figure is with AF locked.


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## kaptainkatsu (Feb 21, 2019)

NorskHest said:


> It is comical that people in here think we who shoot professionally just go out and buy new shit at the drop of a hat or announcement. I shoot professional motocross and road racing, I work with people and magazines that supply and use 1dmkiv’s, 1dx mki’s, 300mm version ones and all sorts of old gear still. I use my 1dxmkii and a 1dc, for me and those like me to say I’m going to get rid of allllll my super telephotos and these two bodies that work perfectly for a few mega pixels or new mount with no proven reliability are high. I do video as well and I have a c200 for that, it will take something ungodly drastic to get me to replace my 1dxmkii and 1dc. If it is not getting me more money, then there is no reason to purchase. We want a big bulky durable camera that can get drenched, dropped, and beaten,familiar grip and button layout and not some lightweight camera that doesn’t balance out our super telephotos with terrrible ergonomics. Mega pixels will not make me or other professionals think we should get this new camera but if improved autofocus and 10bit internally recorded video to Cfast is a thing then yes we professionals will consider. I like Cfast, I like it a lot, and 2 Cfast slots would be nice but one is still fine, having a 1tb Cfast makes having a second slot close to moot. The 1dxmkii is an incredible and reliable camera, it will be hard to beat.



Spot on.


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## unfocused (Feb 21, 2019)

ken said:


> ...I'm sure someone here has a feel for the average lead time of a Canon pro model field test to announcement / release....



No one on this forum.


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## proutprout (Feb 21, 2019)

Nelu said:


> *"proutprout*
> Im New Troll Here"
> 
> Welcome to Canonrumors. with your optimism and inside knowledge, it's good to have you here!


Thanks ! I’m still under shock from the RP, i need a few weeks to recover...


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## Sharlin (Feb 21, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> Actually Sony struggles with AF in video compared to Canon's DPAF.
> Canon is very smooth and Sony is jerky and amateurish by comparison.
> See reviews that are not fanboy of Sony. Very eye opening.



Yes, but my point was neither about video nor AF accuracy. It was solely about throughput. The R can do 5.5fps with Servo AF, or less if focus priority is enabled. I’d like to see a Canon R body capable of even 8fps before I believe they can do the jump to 14+.

Canon indubitably *owns* video AF right now, and one-shot DPAF is good as well. Object tracking likewise. But DPAF is not without drawbacks.


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## unfocused (Feb 21, 2019)

NorskHest said:


> ...We want a big bulky durable camera that can get drenched, dropped, and beaten,familiar grip and button layout and not some lightweight camera that doesn’t balance out our super telephotos with terrrible ergonomics... if improved autofocus... The 1dxmkii is an incredible and reliable camera, it will be hard to beat.



I'm convinced that mirrorless fetishists are a religious cult. And, an annoying one at that, because they want to force their preferences on everyone else. And that's in the face of Canon saying the EF series and DSLRs are not going anywhere.


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 21, 2019)

dolina said:


> Why else announce the development a f/2.8 with IS 15-35, 24-70, 70-200 lens and future RF mount camera bodies with in body image stabalization (IBIS)?



There is a leaked Canon presentation showing both IBIS+IS working together. This is similar to what Panasonic is doing with both the IBIS + Lens IS working together to get 6 stop stabilization instead of 5.5.


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## BillB (Feb 21, 2019)

flip314 said:


> I strongly suspect that Canon is waiting for a new sensor to debut the Pro R (and that it explains their delay in releasing one). I think they would have released a Pro R already if they thought they could, but with all the flack they got for recycling sensors in the R and RP could you imagine if they did it in an even more expensive camera? I don't think it would fly at all.


Canon may have run out of sensors to recycle anyway.


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## dolina (Feb 21, 2019)

unfocused said:


> You might want to look this up



Canon IBIS https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-has-appeared-to-confirm-ibis-is-on-the-roadmap/

RF lenses I mentioned are under development https://fstoppers.com/gear/canon-officially-announces-development-six-new-rf-series-lenses-340538

Canon CEO interview summary of the Janury 25 interview.

mirrorless camera sales aren't adding to its bottom line, but are instead eating into the sales of DSLRs
Canon expects that 10 million units 2018 shipment for prosumer and professional cameras to drop down to and plateau at roughly 5-6 million units by the end of 2020.
This does not mean Canon or Nikon will stop the manufacturing of current DSLR bodies, lenses and accessories. It just means no more R&D money spent for future products.

Canon has more than a dozen DSLR bodies being sold at BH today and I see Canon continue manufacturing at least half of them beyond the year 2023.

It would be a pleasant surprise if the 1DX3 will be a DSLR.


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## SouthpawSD (Feb 21, 2019)

Maybe after the announcement (whenever it is) 1DX2 prices will drop to where I can afford one!


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## dolina (Feb 21, 2019)

flip314 said:


> I strongly suspect that Canon is waiting for a new sensor to debut the Pro R (and that it explains their delay in releasing one). I think they would have released a Pro R already if they thought they could, but with all the flack they got for recycling sensors in the R and RP could you imagine if they did it in an even more expensive camera? I don't think it would fly at all.


Canon may just want to avoid the Osborne Effect.

The delay has more to do with trying to avoid cannibalizing the sales of 1DX2, 5D4 & 5DsR before the year 2020.


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## dolina (Feb 21, 2019)

SouthpawSD said:


> Maybe after the announcement (whenever it is) 1DX2 prices will drop to where I can afford one!


I've read elsewhere that Canon tends to price newer models a tad higher as to not force a price down of the model being replaced.


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## SouthpawSD (Feb 21, 2019)

dolina said:


> I've read elsewhere that Canon tends to price newer models a tad higher as to not force a price down of the model being replaced.



Interesting ... well at least there should be some action on the used market as people sell to upgrade.


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## dolina (Feb 21, 2019)

SouthpawSD said:


> Interesting ... well at least there should be some action on the used market as people sell to upgrade.


I've noticed Canon lowering prices of the new model to its street price by its 6th month of introduction.

If I were to buy any Canon pro product like the 1DX3 MILC it would be after the 2020 Olympics in August.


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## tpatana (Feb 21, 2019)

If it's any decent specs, I'll buy one. 1Dx(1) already flipped the mirror quite many times, so time to retire soon.

I'm making a prediction, you can quote me on this in about one year time:

"They will announce EF and R versions less than 6 months apart." 

As much as they have been pushing for R, I'm happy to hear there's 1DX3-EF coming as that's what I want. However, the R-push makes me believe they are working on R-variant on the side. Not in time to be fully released before Tokyo, but maybe couple prototypes already at the hands of select individuals. And then perhaps slightly after Tokyo if they deem they are close enough to DSLR version, they'll announce the 1R with couple special lenses to be released before next winter olympics. Maybe even 200-400R.


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## unfocused (Feb 21, 2019)

dolina said:


> Canon IBIS https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-has-appeared-to-confirm-ibis-is-on-the-roadmap/
> 
> RF lenses I mentioned are under development https://fstoppers.com/gear/canon-officially-announces-development-six-new-rf-series-lenses-340538
> 
> ...



That's why I referenced confirmation bias. You are taking a bunch of unrelated factoids and using them to draw a conclusion about the future of DSLRs that supports your own bias. Canon officials have made public statements that they do not see mirrorless as a replacement for DSLRs. Canon doesn't know if mirrorless will ultimately replace DSLRs. If they don't know, I don't understand why you seem to be so certain.


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## Mr Majestyk (Feb 21, 2019)

Ooh, 21.8MP, 16fps,, Tweaked 61pt AF, dual CFExpress, blah blah blah.

Maybe they can surprise, but surprising us would be a surprise nowadays in itself. Hopefully it's not another lame update like the 1DXII and they go out with a bang.

My specs:
24.2MP stacked sensor, 1/200s read speed
14EV DR @ISO80-125, 0.5EV more DR through rest of range than 1DXII
ISO 80-102K, expanded to ISO 40-808K, same per-pixel noise as 1DXII
Hybrid operation. 14fps mechanical shutter
10fps e-shutter using DPAF, LV through hybrid OVF+EVF (3.69MP)
all new AF covering 70% of VF, few hundred points, all x-type to f/5.6, subset x-type to f/8, central cluster x-type @ f/11. AF down to EV -5
eye-AF in LV and AF-C up to 10fps
New efficient video codecs, no more mjpg garbage, 200Mb/s, c-log, zebras,
[email protected] 24p,25p,30p, 48p, 50p, 60p, from 5K and downsampled
1080p @ 240p, 180p, 120p as well as standard options
illuminated buttons
flip-out screen
Dual CFExpress
1.4kg

This is the sort of revolution they need, 1DXIII has to go out with a bang.


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 21, 2019)

dolina said:


> Canon may just want to avoid the Osborne Effect.
> 
> The delay has more to do with trying to avoid cannibalizing the sales of 1DX2, 5D4 & 5DsR before the year 2020.



They would want to release a pro model of 5D and 1D FF mirrorless soon. Nikon, Sony, Panasonic isn't going to sit idle. Tamron already provide great lens for Sony and Sigma will offer for Panasonic option at CP+. As a long time Canon user who has never switch, I'm already toying with the idea of adding a non Canon FF mirrorless camera and using adapter.



flip314 said:


> I strongly suspect that Canon is waiting for a new sensor to debut the Pro R (and that it explains their delay in releasing one). I think they would have released a Pro R already if they thought they could, but with all the flack they got for recycling sensors in the R and RP could you imagine if they did it in an even more expensive camera? I don't think it would fly at all.



It could be a couple things they are working on that they are trying to get perfect: better eyeAF, IBIS, new sensor, 4K, new card format. 

If they release a pro body without IBIS and charge $3500, they would definitely get alot of flack.
If they reuse 5D IV sensor or similiar performance (ISO, DR, FPS) for $3500, they would get alot of flack.
If they still have 4K heavily cropped, they would get alot of flack.


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## CanoKnight (Feb 21, 2019)

" Whenever it does come, will this be the last of the Canon EOS-1D series of DSLRs?"

It will be the last Canon camera ever.


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 21, 2019)

[email protected] said:


> All this makes me think that if Canon doesn't prove it's ability to throw lots of megapixels (at least 30) through to a memory card more than 8-10 times per second in a mirrorless body, then it doesn't make sense for me to invest in EF glass (on the way out) nor R bodies (not capable enough). If the 2020 Olympics offering is a 1 series body upgrade about as incremental as the last one, I won't expect Canon will provide what I need, which would greatly sadden me. If they came out with a great 1 series upgrade, I might get that as a stop-gap to allow me to use current glass and give time for mirrorless to catch up. Not that other people's use cases aren't well taken care of by these current offerings. And not that the RF lenses are the most exciting thing happening in the industry right now from an academic perspective. Between now and that next release, I'm experimenting with both the R system, and I'm going to also play around with either the L mount stuff - once Sigma's glass comes out - or the next rev of the Sony A9 or A7r. Best case: Canon surprises us with something great. I have my fingers crossed, but I'm worried enough that I'm spending time and money exploring other things to do due diligence.



Panasonic S1 is very interesting camera for me. It has ergonomic, weather sealing, eyeAF, IBIS, dual card slot, good video option, weather sealing, touch screen LCD, 5.8 million dot EVF. Pretty much everything I wish Canon EOS R Pro would be for $2500. The high ISO is very clean and it focus fast even in dark situation. The only unknown is how well the EF-L adapter works. 

If Sony come out with next gen A9 or A7R with 5.76 million dot EVF, best eyeAF with live tracking and fully touch screen LCD like a6400, I would switch and get 2 Tamron lenses for cheap.


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## RGF (Feb 21, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Interesting, knowing how aggressively Canon has gone to RF mount.



RF/ML is the future. Just like digital supplanted film, RF / ML will supplant the dSLR/EOS sytem


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## dba101 (Feb 21, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> Panasonic S1 is very interesting camera for me. It has ergonomic, weather sealing, eyeAF, IBIS, dual card slot, good video option, weather sealing, touch screen LCD, 5.8 million dot EVF. Pretty much everything I wish Canon EOS R Pro would be for $2500. The high ISO is very clean and it focus fast even in dark situation. The only unknown is how well the EF-L adapter works.
> 
> If Sony come out with next gen A9 or A7R with 5.76 million dot EVF, best eyeAF with live tracking and fully touch screen LCD like a6400, I would switch and get 2 Tamron lenses for cheap.


When you do finally end up switching, make sure you let us know......jeez


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## slclick (Feb 21, 2019)

RGF said:


> RF/ML is the future. Just like digital supplanted film, RF / ML will supplant the dSLR/EOS sytem


The flaw in your analogy is that film as a product, was two fold (product and development) and it's availability of both declined and for development even disappeared in certain areas. The mechanical change you mention changes nothing but consumer sales. Thus it's not a paradigm shift but an evolution in choices. Current DSLR's will continue to work and be used, unlike many film bodies which could not be used by a vast majority of shooters.


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## transpo1 (Feb 21, 2019)

Great! Let's see if they can fit 4K FF with 60p, no crop, and C-Log into it


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## Dreamwalker Photography (Feb 21, 2019)

I've been a Canon shooter since 1983 (and still own my old 1984 F-1 New). The X-bodies are the ultimate sports/wildlife photography instrument. As much as I adore my smaller stable of Sony alphas (including the fabulous a9), I always look forward to the next X.

That being said, I was disappointed when Canon seemed to aim for the low branches with the R-series, and I doubt that many Canon pros will desert their Xs—and the far, far more expensive glass; 200-400 1.4x, 500, 600, 800) for the R-series unless the converter performance is seamless.

I know many of you will cry about the vaunted 5-series—and I own a MkIII as well as a 5DsR—but those bodies are not in the same league as the X-bodies. (Dunk your 5D Mk whatever into the near-freezing waters of the Arctic and get back to me. My 1D X survived to tell the tale.)

My a9 can compete with the X only on performance; it's not even close when it comes to durability. An R X body might draw some Sony shooters who moved—partially (like me) or entirely—back into the Canon fold, although I've got quite an investment in Sony and Zeiss glass and will probably use my alphas for studio shoots regardless.


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 21, 2019)

dba101 said:


> When you do finally end up switching, make sure you let us know......jeez


I was responding to previous poster. Thanks for posting it out of context...jeez.

I don't care what you use or shoot with.


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## Talys (Feb 21, 2019)

dolina said:


> Sony appears to have done that with their A9. Canon has at least 2 more RF bodies to release within 17 months.



I looked pretty hard at the sidelines during Superbowl, and I didn't spot any Sony A9's. Really, I didn't see much other than Canons and big whites. I think the sports photographers will be very reticent to switch to EVF until it proves that it can do something useful for them beyond the 1DX and not lose any of the 1DX functionality -- big and heavy to counterbalance a big and heavy lens, extremely rugged, very fast autofocus on a specific point even with extenders, and produces gorgeous photos when the ideal lens for the job is mounted . 


dolina said:


> Canon IBIS https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-has-appeared-to-confirm-ibis-is-on-the-roadmap/
> It would be a pleasant surprise if the 1DX3 will be a DSLR.


I'm not trying to be cute here, but of course 1DX3 will be a DSLR. If it were a mirrorless, it wouldn't be a 1D


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## Besisika (Feb 21, 2019)

transpo1 said:


> Great! Let's see if they can fit 4K FF with 60p, no crop, and C-Log into it


It doesn't really matter to me. As long as it can bokeh the kids better than Sony, I am buying it. I have been disapointed by specs lately so I decided I will focus on bokehing everything nowadays. Healthier.


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## Punio (Feb 21, 2019)

Having only owned my 1DX2 for two years, this is what I'd like in the 1DX3:
(in no particular order)

1.few more mp
2. intervalometer
3. better video codec for smaller file sizes
4. c-log
5. wifi
6. vari angle tilt screen
7. focus peaking
8. eye af
9. 2x c fast slots

its a lot to ask, but then I'm already happy with my 1DX2.


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## dba101 (Feb 21, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> I was responding to previous poster. Thanks for posting it out of context...jeez.
> 
> I don't care what you use or shoot with.



Oh c'mon. 
Your camera decision is a saga on here.
One minute your halfway out the door, next your back. I was genuinely interested what you decided to go with in the end.
I also think you should plump for something and get out and shoot.


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 22, 2019)

dba101 said:


> Oh c'mon.
> Your camera decision is a saga on here.
> One minute your halfway out the door, next your back. I was genuinely interested what you decided to go with in the end.
> I also think you should plump for something and get out and shoot.



What make you think I don't go out and shoot. It isn't like my existing DSLR camera stop working while waiting for what's coming out in 2019.
I don't mind waiting until all manufacturers show their next generation before I jump into FF mirrorless. I'll be buying into the lenses and camera. I want to buy more than 1 camera so I want to make an inform decision.

I won't tell anyone what I decided to go with. Unless you have the same priority as me, it's not going to be helpful.

Just use whatever works for you. I don't care. You shouldn't care about I shoot either.


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## dolina (Feb 22, 2019)

The point I am making is that the technology's there from Sony. Whether sports photogs have enough $ set aside to switch is another matter all together.

If Sony can manage to make a sports body like a A9 then it wouldn't be that far fetch for Canon do the same within 17 months for the Olympics.

Canon & Nikon release their pro bodies a few months before the Olympics and not the Superbowl.



Talys said:


> I looked pretty hard at the sidelines during Superbowl, and I didn't spot any Sony A9's. Really, I didn't see much other than Canons and big whites. I think the sports photographers will be very reticent to switch to EVF until it proves that it can do something useful for them beyond the 1DX and not lose any of the 1DX functionality -- big and heavy to counterbalance a big and heavy lens, extremely rugged, very fast autofocus on a specific point even with extenders, and produces gorgeous photos when the ideal lens for the job is mounted .
> 
> I'm not trying to be cute here, but of course 1DX3 will be a DSLR. If it were a mirrorless, it wouldn't be a 1D


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## dolina (Feb 22, 2019)

unfocused said:


> That's why I referenced confirmation bias. You are taking a bunch of unrelated factoids and using them to draw a conclusion about the future of DSLRs that supports your own bias. Canon officials have made public statements that they do not see mirrorless as a replacement for DSLRs. Canon doesn't know if mirrorless will ultimately replace DSLRs. If they don't know, I don't understand why you seem to be so certain.


Excuse me but those are all related. It would not bode well for Canon to just say that "we are not developing EF system further" as it will cause an Osborne Effect.

That is a reason why Canon is releasing the RF bodies nearing the end cycle of DSLR full frames.

Other than the news items I mentioned the products released and announced thus far support my informed opinion that R&D resources are being focus on the RF system.

Until such a time that Canon releases another EF body or EF lens costing less than $5,000 then the future develop is just for RF.

This does not mean Canon will stop producing any of their DSLR bodies, lenses or accessories. Neither does it mean everything you've bought will stop working.

I do understand why you don't want a 1DX3 mirrorless. Adaptors sucks and adjusting to something new and unfamiliar is a hassle. But for Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic to stay in DSC business they must make products the public will buy. So far 2014-2018 CIPA shipping data shows a decline in DSLR sales and an uptake of MILC while the whole DSC shipments declined from 2010-2018.


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## gmon750 (Feb 22, 2019)

All this shows is that Canon is still fully-committed to dSLR's and Mirrorless. There's room for both. Why must one win over the other? There are countless of dSLR's still in use today and I'm sure someone has made a determination that they will still be a market worth selling to.

I'm happy to see this.


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## dolina (Feb 22, 2019)

gmon750 said:


> All this shows is that Canon is still fully-committed to dSLR's and Mirrorless. There's room for both. Why must one win over the other? There are countless of dSLR's still in use today and I'm sure someone has made a determination that they will still be a market worth selling to.
> 
> I'm happy to see this.


No need to worry, supply of DSLR bodies, lenses and accessories will continue so long as there is sufficient demand.


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## Don Haines (Feb 22, 2019)

dolina said:


> Excuse me but those are all related. It would not bode well for Canon to just say that "we are not developing EF system further" as it will cause an Osborne Effect.
> 
> That is a reason why Canon is releasing the RF bodies nearing the end cycle of DSLR full frames.
> 
> ...


And an additional point: we may be approaching a discontinuity in the development of digital cameras. Sensors can only progress so far and we are essentially at the point where improvements are minimal, but advances in computing continue. Look at the latest from Panasonic and Oly..... lots of computing power is going to be one of the defining features of high end cameras. I wonder what this one will be packing?


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## dtaylor (Feb 22, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> There's little chance that they could get a 1DX level R body out before the games, and even less chance that they could get photographers to switch. A comprehensive selection of R sports lenses won't be there either.



Not to mention..._DSLRs still out sell MILCs by a wide margin._

The mirrorless "push" has been perplexing to me in light of this. Yes...I know there are advantages. Yes...I know EVFs continue to improve. Yes...I know that by the end of this decade all new cameras will likely be mirrorless.

But _right now_ I still prefer OVF for some things. And _right now_ the ergonomics of a DSLR are still better with big lenses. And I hope Canon continues to service that market until mirrorless really can replace flappy mirrors.


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## Jethro (Feb 22, 2019)

BillB said:


> Canon may have run out of sensors to recycle anyway.


Well, if this rumour is true, they might have an (excellent) 1DXii sensor to slot into one of their 'pro' R bodies, at no development cost again. A pro R body positioned in theory above the 5Div, and below the new 1DXiii, and aimed at those wanting to upgrade from the old 5Div and open to a mirrorless alternative. Sounds very in line with the marketing strategy to date.


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## PureClassA (Feb 22, 2019)

Punio said:


> Having only owned my 1DX2 for two years, this is what I'd like in the 1DX3:
> (in no particular order)
> 
> 1.few more mp
> ...


 
Add 4K HDMI output to that. That my biggest complaint with mine. No excuse not to have that in the DX2 that is supposed to be a flagship. Firmware update appreciated.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 22, 2019)

1. Few more mp (24-28)
2. Intervalometer
3. Better video codec for smaller file sizes
4. c-log
5. Wifi (with much better and more controls)
6. Vari angle tilt screen (not swivel)
7. Focus peaking
8. Eye af
9. 2x c fast slots
10. Clean uncroped 4K HDMI output (4:2:2 10 bit)
11. .CR3
12. Illuminated buttons
13. USB-C
14. Fully functioning touch screen in all modes
15. 240fps 1080
16. Same battery (not a derivative N MkII)
17. Lighter


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## analoggrotto (Feb 22, 2019)

Canon AF on all fronts is behind the competition; I hope this tide turns. AF is what put them on top way back.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 22, 2019)

analoggrotto said:


> Canon AF on all fronts is behind the competition; I hope this tide turns. AF is what put them on top way back.


It depends on what you shoot. I do not believe all these people would be shooting with sub par AF.




Now when the 1D MkIII AF was genuinely suspect the white to black lens ratio changed drastically, now, very heavily leans to the white for the highest end pros that live and eat by their AF performance.


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## transpo1 (Feb 22, 2019)

Besisika said:


> It doesn't really matter to me. As long as it can bokeh the kids better than Sony, I am buying it. I have been disapointed by specs lately so I decided I will focus on bokehing everything nowadays. Healthier.



You may need to go Medium Format!


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## Bennymiata (Feb 22, 2019)

Sorry Dolina, but new DSLRs are going to be released for at least the next 10 - 20 years, at least.
My next new camera will be a DSLR and this will continue for some time forwards.
There are just so many reasons that mirror slappers are still superior to milcs, that it will be at least 5 years until they are as good for many pros.

A year or so ago, Canon execs said they were developing new sensors that are at least as good as their competitors'.
I hope the new 1dx3 will show off its new sensors as well as class leading, uncropped 4k.


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## padam (Feb 22, 2019)

Bennymiata said:


> I hope the new 1dx3 will show off its new sensors as well as class leading, uncropped 4k.


This is a very unrealistic expectation, the best they can do it make FF 4k (or maybe 8k) available at the C300 Mark III level as a paid option.

For mirrorless cameras, an RF-mount focal reducer might come at some point to combat that crop factor (maybe that's one reason they are holding back on the video-focused R model for now and make a high-megapixel one).
If it kept all functions intact, it would probably be a huge seller, bigger than it ever was for Sony.


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## nickorando (Feb 22, 2019)

I suspect it might be released later this year - at the very least, it will be in the hands of quite a lot more testers.
Why? Because there's a major sporting event taking place in Japan *this* year - the Rugby World Cup starts on September 20th. Sure, not as big as the Olympics, but a pretty useful testing ground, and Canon are one of the official sponsors - it would be very surprising if they didn't want their product to be pre-eminent.


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## GMCPhotographics (Feb 22, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> How does the Sony a9 do overall as a pro level camera? There is more than just being fast.
> Durability, long lenses, ie 600mm, 800mm, Ease of use including menus, and other checklist items that Canon and Nikon have that Sony completely lacks to this date.
> Consumer/enthusiast/pixel peepers bells and whistles do not seem to be major factors to actual working pros around the world.


...and then there's the CPN support network...which Sony hasn't got. I can't imagine Sony support covering large media events like the Olympics...When a pro buys pro gear, he /she is also buying into a support program. I'm a CPN platinum member and I had a dropped 5DIII which needed some extensive repairs. I dropped it into their service center...through Wex...it was back in my hands 2 days later. It's an amazing service for CPN guys. My old Guitar tech used to say...quality gear is easily repairable gear.


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## -1 (Feb 22, 2019)

A traditional 1Dx3 would satisfy regular still pros that depend on predictable behavior and result from the camera. It will probably be announced in good time for the Olympics with access primary given to accredited photogs. The rest would have to wait a few months.
That what I would like to see is a R doing that what folks expects of a 5D5. That said: Still loving my 1D2 though...


----------



## PerKr (Feb 22, 2019)

Nobody is considering a pellicle mirror alternative? Or flapping mirror with interchangeable viewfinder housings to allow both EVF and OVF options to get the best of both worlds?


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## Hector1970 (Feb 22, 2019)

Personally I'd have thought 4 or 5 years ago Canon would have targeted the Tokyo Olympics to showcase their latest mirrorless technology in a Pro Model . It would have had possibilities to a much higher frame rate, silent shutter, super focusing system, no black out etc...
It would seem to odd to me that their target would have been to have a new 1DX III which possibly has only incremental improvements on the 1DX II (higher MP, new focusing system). I don't know whether they can improve on FPS with a mechanical mirror.
But a 1 DXIII it would appear to be the next pro camera for high end photography.
It will be interesting to see what Canon can do with it to make it clearly superior to a 1 DX II (which is a very fine camera).
I'll be really interested in seeing what progress they've made on focusing which still can be frustrating (but in generally really very good once it locks on). I hope they can improve the locking on of small objects. Somehow recognising birds in flight would be amazing. Effective Eye focus would be great too.

I doubt if they'd shrink it. Personally I'd love if they made 1 DX somewhere between the size of a 5D IV and 1 DX. I'd be happy with one battery but the buttons on the vertical are handy. Potentially they'd make it a bit lighter.

I'd love if some how they could make it quieter on silent shutter - which is not very silent.
I'm heavily invested in EF lens so this camera will tempt me alot.
It will be expensive so I'd better start saving.


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## koenkooi (Feb 22, 2019)

PerKr said:


> Nobody is considering a pellicle mirror alternative? Or flapping mirror with interchangeable viewfinder housings to allow both EVF and OVF options to get the best of both worlds?



Or replacing the AF chip with a smaller version of the sensor, e.g. APS-H sized 8 megapixel sensor with DPAF. That would allow you to use the OVF while having all the fancy new DPAF tricks.


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## harrylarsen (Feb 22, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Interesting, knowing how aggressively Canon has gone to RF mount.


and maybe EOS 1DX-III R


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## NorskHest (Feb 22, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> It depends on what you shoot. I do not believe all these people would be shooting with sub par AF.
> View attachment 183293
> View attachment 183294
> 
> ...


Look at allllllll that nicely balanced glass with full integrated grip bodies capturing images ranging from 10-14 frames per second. And not to mention soooooooo much f4-5.6 and more going on, the 1d series may not be a Sony with with better noise sensitivity but the 1d series has such smooth and nice grain at higher ASA and skin tones that actually depict humans compared to that mushy dishwater skin tones that Sony has. Photography isn’t just about dick measuring it’s about having fun, telling stories and maybe making some money if that’s your goal. The most beautiful images I have seen are the ones I have stored in my brain, we often forget to put the camera down and see and live life. Just because you have a nice camera in your hands doesn’t mean you are cool or an artist. Those who are living and doing life in front of our lenses are the cool ones and those people should be respected and sought after and not those of us mashing buttons. I used to think that I needed the best gear to make a career in cinematography and photography and you don’t. I used a 5dmkiii and a 1dxmkii( yes with that beautiful mjpeg codec that most of you hate) to make some documentaries that are on Netflix and hbo and other stations, I have had photos taken with a 60d published in the New Yorker and other publications, I use a mavic and a mavic air and have some of those images on the travel channel. If you are good at what you do you can take and make any piece of gear work. Photography is sometime not about the gear but about the place and time. I stopped commenting and coming to this site because it’s as bad as Facebook with some of the people but I came back yesterday to see what’s up and new and I see that tribalism is still alive and well. At the end of the day canon may not make the most tech crazy gear but it is reliable and I, like many professional cinematographers and photophotographers love and am grateful for the reliability of canon products. But I refuse to get any R series no matter the specs of the reliability and ergonomics are not there. Switch brands if you want no one cares, get excited about all that new R glass if you want but don’t forget to live. Also Cfast is not dead, those things are everywhere and with ARRI still using them they will be around for awhile, a well lit scene looks better with canon color science than a wide open aperture high asa Sony with no lighting. Ummmmm....... did I forget anything. Oh the 1dxmkii is probably the best photo camera body ever made and unless you own one won’t understand, I hope the 1dxmkiii camera doesn’t get a tilty flippy screen and internal recording is waaaayyyyy more betterererer than an external recorder. Ooooooo forgot about pixel pitch, actually the hell with it, this got way to long winded. Go buy a 1dxmkii and a c200 or 300mkii and stop complaining.


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## reef58 (Feb 22, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> Panasonic S1 is very interesting camera for me. It has ergonomic, weather sealing, eyeAF, IBIS, dual card slot, good video option, weather sealing, touch screen LCD, 5.8 million dot EVF. Pretty much everything I wish Canon EOS R Pro would be for $2500. The high ISO is very clean and it focus fast even in dark situation. The only unknown is how well the EF-L adapter works.
> 
> If Sony come out with next gen A9 or A7R with 5.76 million dot EVF, best eyeAF with live tracking and fully touch screen LCD like a6400, I would switch and get 2 Tamron lenses for cheap.



Yes but what do you do when someone comes out with 6.8 million dots and better eye focusing?


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## EduPortas (Feb 22, 2019)

You guys are worrying too much about the EF mount and DSLRs in general.

There will always be a niche for a high-end DSLR. Mainly, journalists.
There's at least 10 years of habituation between that group and their digital 1D cameras.

No way Canon will force them to change to the RF mount. Not a year before the Olympics in Tokyo.
The 1D series in DSLR form with EF mount is here to stay. For $6,000 you would expect such! :]

Heck, Nikon still sell their F6 35mm camera_ brand new_ at B&H for $2,600. In 2019!!!


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## TMHKR (Feb 22, 2019)

I wouldn't expect uncropped 4K on ANY Canon camera whatsoever, as long as Cinema EOS line exists.
Remember that these cameras have built-in cooling fans for a reason.


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## [email protected] (Feb 22, 2019)

A couple observations that have gone unnoted in the discussion:
1) Whether you like mirrors or not, when Canon opts to stop refreshing lenses in EF mount, it's game over. There is too much innovation going on in lens development (and a resulting quickening of the lowering of values of used equipment) for pros not to make the decision to move within 2-4 years after the inevitable trickling off. That point will, for Canon's business reasons, come sooner than many will wish, if it hasn't come already. We'll know only in retrospect. Almost certainly it'll be like Sony alpha mount, where no one will know if it is supported due to a dissonance between Canon words and actions, and then a few years later we'll realize it wasn't being supported for some time. Resale values of lenses will go down significantly, forcing pros concerned about capitalization of equipment to take the loss and move to mirrorless of some brand or other. I'm not advocating for this; just observing that I can't think of an exception to this mount evolution narrative in the past 30 years. 

2) If you make more money on medical imaging than on cameras, your technology research emphasis will be on resolution, detection, optics, materials and a bunch of other things that really matter to those most important business lines. One of the areas not stressed is processor speed. Medical imaging is not a dynamic environment requiring tens of shots per second. Quite the opposite. You get a medical image, and they tell you to go home so some dude can come in and examine it and send you a report 2 weeks later. So if you want to control your own chip fab - a billions-dollars investment - you aren't necessarily multiplying the costs of that fab to maximize performance on an edge case product line like cameras. It may be the case that Canon is in a market position that requires a multiplication of computing needs just after a years-long period when the Digic chips haven't advanced nearly as quickly in computational capacity as those of other brands, perhaps because of a combination of build-it-here philosophy along with a corporate-wide prioritization of other research and capital needs. I do not know that this is the case, and I hope it is not. But I am aware and not overly-skeptical that it is a possibility. Were it true, you would see Canon releasing a series of cameras over a number of years that had lower frames per second than desired and versus the competition. This would be especially true on mirrorless. Where they did have great frame rates, you would see the use of multiple chips. You would also see computationally-intensive features, such as zebras, desirable codecs, etc. left out. I think you would also see an emphasis on the landscape and studio photographer for the "pro" mirrorless models, less the sports/action set. Were this incorrect, you would likely see evidence of that with one or two cameras that showed a physical and technological capacity beyond 300 mp/second throughput, like other brands have shown. Fingers crossed that's coming.


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## Dreamwalker Photography (Feb 22, 2019)

jeffa4444 said:


> They have already said the EOS R series are not replacements for the DSLRs. Some people prefer optical viewfinders & you can certainly see the difference between the 5D series and the EOS R being much shaper optically (I certainly noticed this as good as the EOS electronic finder is its not up to an optical finder).
> Some people still prefer the larger size. Ive also found some things similar and others very different & for the first time in years I have to think about using the EOS R over any of my DSLRs.



Clearly, you haven't looked through the electronic viewfinder of the Sony a7RIII or a9. They are as good if not better—especially with very long glass— as any optical viewfinder from Canon, including the 1D X Mk II.


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## Architect1776 (Feb 22, 2019)

dolina said:


> A bird photographer friend of mine sold his 1DX2 for an A9 to match with his Canon 600 Series 2 lens. He's very happy with it and is not looking at moving back to DSLR.
> 
> Sony's lens lineup is not as expansive as Canon but they do have the f/2.8 16-35, 24-70 70-200 & 400. They have 17 months to roll out 600 or 800.
> 
> ...



I seriously doubt the XQD as it is also dead. If anything the CFExpress would be ideal as that is where the future is.


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 22, 2019)

reef58 said:


> Yes but what do you do when someone comes out with 6.8 million dots and better eye focusing?



Once it meet a certain level of accepted performance, I'm not interested in upgrade as often unless there there multiple area of performance sensor, AF, EVF, IBIS or some new features that's useful to my workflow like significant DR upgrade that allow me to no longer do exposure blend, global shutter (no HSS).

I had Canon 6D longer than most people shooting weddings and charging $3000 and up. I still shoot with 5D IV and haven't upgrade to FF mirrorless craze yet even though all my purchase is a business expense and tax deductible. I just want a significant upgrade and getting the most bang for my buck.

It's also why I don't upgrade my computer and smart phone as often unless there is significant upgrade in multiple areas. It has been 4 years since I built a I7 6700K and I'm only interested in upgrading to a 8-16 core processor Ryzen is coming out in July and I'll be good for 4 more years. Same logic when it come to FF mirrorless. I'll be needing 2 camera along lenses. It's going to be expensive purchase and I want a significant upgrade not an incremental upgrade most companies like to push out each year.

Beside, if there are a camera I really want, I wouldn't mind upgrading sooner than later either. If I have the money why not. It can be tax deductible.


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 22, 2019)

Dreamwalker Photography said:


> Clearly, you haven't looked through the electronic viewfinder of the Sony a7RIII or a9. They are as good if not better—especially with very long glass— as any optical viewfinder from Canon, including the 1D X Mk II.



I used both A7RIII and A9 and I didn't like it. I found the EOS R to be more pleasing to look at. A7III is even worst.


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## PureClassA (Feb 22, 2019)

-1 said:


> A traditional 1Dx3 would satisfy regular still pros that depend on predictable behavior and result from the camera. It will probably be announced in good time for the Olympics with access primary given to accredited photogs. The rest would have to wait a few months.
> That what I would like to see is a R doing that what folks expects of a 5D5. That said: Still loving my 1D2 though...



A 1DX3 would have to be some pretty substantial upgrades from the 1DX2 to make even consider upgrading mine. I'd hope the resolution would top out at 24 or maybe even as high as 26, but any more than that would probably start sacrificing gains elsewhere like higher FPS from a pure processing power standpoint. I think the biggest gains would be (as previously discussed by some others) in the AF area. The sensor would probably debut (along with the EOS R Pro) this newly rumored Canon IBIS, which given the camera's primary audience would likely be the most attractive new feature


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## Skyscraperfan (Feb 22, 2019)

I hope they will not bump the resolution too much. If you want a high resolution, you can still buy a 5D Mark V, which will come out at some point. My 1D X has "only" 18 megapixels and to be honest, I would prefer having only 12 in exchange for better low light noise performance. My 1D X does not even allow me to recover details in the shadows at ISO 100. The noise is just to bad. Before increasing the megapixel count Canon should improve noise performance.

As far as the Tokyo Olympics are concerned, I will definitely visit them, but still use my old camera as my budget does not allow both the journey and a new 1 series camera in the same year. I already used my 1D X in Rio and it pretty much did the job. If you are not an accredited press photographer, any lenses over 200mm are not allowed anyway. However it might be possible to "smuggle" an extender into the venue to get 280mm out of your 200mm lens. The sport where a good camera with fast AF and high fps shines most is fencing. The most difficult was archery. Even with high fps you almost never strike the exact point when the arch leaves the bow. Gymnastics are very good for testing the video capabilities of your camera. By the way, ticket sales start in April.


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## proutprout (Feb 22, 2019)

Jethro said:


> Well, if this rumour is true, they might have an (excellent) 1DXii sensor to slot into one of their 'pro' R bodies, at no development cost again. A pro R body positioned in theory above the 5Div, and below the new 1DXiii, and aimed at those wanting to upgrade from the old 5Div and open to a mirrorless alternative. Sounds very in line with the marketing strategy to date.


That would make a lot of sense. A pro body R a little higher than the 5D, with R lenses would be a good proposition, priced 4.5k


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## Kit. (Feb 22, 2019)

[email protected] said:


> A couple observations that have gone unnoted in the discussion:
> 1) Whether you like mirrors or not, when Canon opts to stop refreshing lenses in EF mount, it's game over.


Actually, it's the other way around. _When we_ stop liking mirrors, then Canon will stop refreshing lenses in EF mount.



[email protected] said:


> 2) If you make more money on medical imaging than on cameras, your technology research emphasis will be on resolution, detection, optics, materials and a bunch of other things that really matter to those most important business lines. One of the areas not stressed is processor speed.


It would be very stupid for a sensor maker not to make money on sensors for automation these days. A market for medical imaging is not that big.


----------



## Dreamwalker Photography (Feb 22, 2019)

proutprout said:


> That would make a lot of sense. A pro body R a little higher than the 5D, with R lenses would be a good proposition, priced 4.5k



I like this idea as I always carry more than one body and multiple lenses. An RX body equivalent to the 1D X MkII (or even the 1D X) with an EF to RF adapter offering no performance loss would be dynamite. Fast shooting (though perhaps not the 20fps the a9 can produce), high dynamic range (which is more important to my mind than the sheer number of pixels), and a pro body which can take the abuse Arctic or Saharan weather conditions can produce (something the Sonys simply cannot survive)—Wow! Sign me up for two of them!


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 22, 2019)

NorskHest said:


> Look at allllllll that nicely balanced glass with full integrated grip bodies capturing images ranging from 10-14 frames per second. And not to mention soooooooo much f4-5.6 and more going on, the 1d series may not be a Sony with with better noise sensitivity but the 1d series has such smooth and nice grain at higher ASA and skin tones that actually depict humans compared to that mushy dishwater skin tones that Sony has. Photography isn’t just about dick measuring it’s about having fun, telling stories and maybe making some money if that’s your goal. The most beautiful images I have seen are the ones I have stored in my brain, we often forget to put the camera down and see and live life. Just because you have a nice camera in your hands doesn’t mean you are cool or an artist. Those who are living and doing life in front of our lenses are the cool ones and those people should be respected and sought after and not those of us mashing buttons. I used to think that I needed the best gear to make a career in cinematography and photography and you don’t. I used a 5dmkiii and a 1dxmkii( yes with that beautiful mjpeg codec that most of you hate) to make some documentaries that are on Netflix and hbo and other stations, I have had photos taken with a 60d published in the New Yorker and other publications, I use a mavic and a mavic air and have some of those images on the travel channel. If you are good at what you do you can take and make any piece of gear work. Photography is sometime not about the gear but about the place and time. I stopped commenting and coming to this site because it’s as bad as Facebook with some of the people but I came back yesterday to see what’s up and new and I see that tribalism is still alive and well. At the end of the day canon may not make the most tech crazy gear but it is reliable and I, like many professional cinematographers and photophotographers love and am grateful for the reliability of canon products. But I refuse to get any R series no matter the specs of the reliability and ergonomics are not there. Switch brands if you want no one cares, get excited about all that new R glass if you want but don’t forget to live. Also Cfast is not dead, those things are everywhere and with ARRI still using them they will be around for awhile, a well lit scene looks better with canon color science than a wide open aperture high asa Sony with no lighting. Ummmmm....... did I forget anything. Oh the 1dxmkii is probably the best photo camera body ever made and unless you own one won’t understand, I hope the 1dxmkiii camera doesn’t get a tilty flippy screen and internal recording is waaaayyyyy more betterererer than an external recorder. Ooooooo forgot about pixel pitch, actually the hell with it, this got way to long winded. Go buy a 1dxmkii and a c200 or 300mkii and stop complaining.


I don’t understand how your rant is related to my post. Is there a connection to anything you say to my point that Canon AF is widely regarded as ‘the best’ amongst a large percentage of people who rely on that performance for their living?


----------



## Dreamwalker Photography (Feb 22, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Actually, it's the other way around. _When we_ stop liking mirrors, then Canon will stop refreshing lenses in EF mount.
> 
> 
> It would be very stupid for a sensor maker not to make money on sensors for automation these days. A market for medical imaging is not that big.



I take it your first statement was sarcasm. However, your second statement is simply untrue. The bioanalytical instrumentation systems market uses image sensors across the entire IVD process.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 22, 2019)

[email protected] said:


> ...Whether you like mirrors or not, when Canon opts to stop refreshing lenses in EF mount, it's game over.





Kit. said:


> Actually, it's the other way around. _When we_ stop liking mirrors, then Canon will stop refreshing lenses in EF mount.





Dreamwalker Photography said:


> I take it your first statement was sarcasm.



Sarcasm or not, it is absolutely true. Why is it that people can't seem to get it through their heads that Canon does not decide the market, the market decides what Canon will make. 

Canon will continue to make EF mount lenses and DSLRs as long as it is profitable. There is no secret agenda to stop making a product that people want. That would be stupid and Canon is not stupid. Judging by the comments here from people who actually use and own the Canon 1Dx line, the demand is going to be there for a long, long time.


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## Kit. (Feb 22, 2019)

Dreamwalker Photography said:


> I take it your first statement was sarcasm.


Not at all.



Dreamwalker Photography said:


> However, your second statement is simply untrue. The bioanalytical instrumentation systems market uses image sensors across the entire IVD process.


I work in autonomous driving. And no, it's not the only industry that will soon require hundreds of millons, if not billions of sensors with high processing speed.


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## Dreamwalker Photography (Feb 22, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Sarcasm or not, it is absolutely true. Why is it that people can't seem to get it through their heads that Canon does not decide the market, the market decides what Canon will make.
> 
> Canon will continue to make EF mount lenses and DSLRs as long as it is profitable. There is no secret agenda to stop making a product that people want. That would be stupid and Canon is not stupid. Judging by the comments here from people who actually use and own the Canon 1Dx line, the demand is going to be there for a long, long time.



Actually, that's not completely true. If it was, we'd still be driving around in Ford Model Ts. Industry innovates, oft times based on research breakthroughs or on sheer speculation (along with some educated guesses), and then the market either accepts or rejects.

I do agree that the market has the final say, but the market is more often than not the follower of new technologies...not the arbiter. However, more than once has a company deliberately steered its market in a direction the market did not necessarily want to go, and left the nonadopters in the dust. Re: Adobe and their subscription model. Pentax and the switch from the M42 mount to a bayonet. Canon switching from the FD mount to the EF. It happens all the time.

Do I believe Canon will drop the EF mount anytime soon? No. It's far too established and the RF line is too immature and narrow as it stands. Will Canon drop the EF line in the future? Of course; that's called progress. One day, perhaps years from now, the EF line will be as dead as the FD mount. That doesn't mean that all Canons will be mirrorless at that time. A DSLR body could be designed to incorporate an RF mount. Canon did it before when they shifted from FD to EF. History does tend to repeat itself.


----------



## FramerMCB (Feb 22, 2019)

PerKr said:


> Nobody is considering a pellicle mirror alternative? Or flapping mirror with interchangeable viewfinder housings to allow both EVF and OVF options to get the best of both worlds?


I don't see Canon offering this on their flagship models currently. Some manufacturer in the future may offer some type of modular system but I still think anyone doing that would only consider it by offering it as a system and then only doing/allowing the swap-outs at designated service centers. Too much risk. Unless the modules can somehow be like plug and play. I just don't see this - but I'm no product/design engineer either.


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## Kit. (Feb 22, 2019)

Dreamwalker Photography said:


> Actually, that's not completely true. If it was, we'd still be driving around in Ford Model Ts.


EOS RP is Ford Model T.
EOS 1D X is Baldwin Consolidation.



Dreamwalker Photography said:


> I do agree that the market has the final say, but the market is more often than not the follower of new technologies...not the arbiter. However, more than once has a company deliberately steered its market in a direction the market did not necessarily want to go, and left the nonadopters in the dust.


Or bites the dust itself.

Because the market _is_ the arbiter. If you are lucky (or not burning your bridges), the arbiter may look like "a follower".


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## rwvaughn (Feb 22, 2019)

Mirrorless is not yet ready or advanced enough for Olympic sports, professional sports or college sports action regardless of how much we wish it were. Not when a photographer makes a living based on personal reputation and the ability to provide that magic money making shot. Anyone that claims mirrorless is ready right now is fooling themselves or very naive.


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## nchoh (Feb 22, 2019)

Dreamwalker Photography said:


> Actually, that's not completely true. If it was, we'd still be driving around in Ford Model Ts. Industry innovates, oft times based on research breakthroughs or on sheer speculation (along with some educated guesses), and then the market either accepts or rejects.
> 
> I do agree that the market has the final say, but the market is more often than not the follower of new technologies...not the arbiter. However, more than once has a company deliberately steered its market in a direction the market did not necessarily want to go, and left the nonadopters in the dust. Re: Adobe and their subscription model. Pentax and the switch from the M42 mount to a bayonet. Canon switching from the FD mount to the EF. It happens all the time.
> 
> Do I believe Canon will drop the EF mount anytime soon? No. It's far too established and the RF line is too immature and narrow as it stands. Will Canon drop the EF line in the future? Of course; that's called progress. One day, perhaps years from now, the EF line will be as dead as the FD mount. That doesn't mean that all Canons will be mirrorless at that time. A DSLR body could be designed to incorporate an RF mount. Canon did it before when they shifted from FD to EF. History does tend to repeat itself.



Your argument rests on one assumption; that mirrorless renders DSLR obsolete... or, to be fair, that mirrorless provides 10 times or more utility that DSLRs. Currently mirrorless does not do that. In fact, mirrorless currently does not beat DSLRs in all aspects. Battery life and the ability to see through the camera when it is off are 2 characteristics.

Doubtless battery technology and electronics advancements will make battery life a moot point in the future. However, that Sony, Panasonic and FujiFilm all don't have credible competitors to DSLR would lead me to believe that Canon will release new DSLR models once the RF push has subsided somewhat.


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## HarryFilm (Feb 22, 2019)

NorskHest said:


> It is comical that people in here think we who shoot professionally just go out and buy new shit at the drop of a hat or announcement. I shoot professional motocross and road racing, I work with people and magazines that supply and use 1dmkiv’s, 1dx mki’s, 300mm version ones and all sorts of old gear still. I use my 1dxmkii and a 1dc, for me and those like me to say I’m going to get rid of allllll my super telephotos and these two bodies that work perfectly for a few mega pixels or new mount with no proven reliability are high. I do video as well and I have a c200 for that, it will take something ungodly drastic to get me to replace my 1dxmkii and 1dc. If it is not getting me more money, then there is no reason to purchase. We want a big bulky durable camera that can get drenched, dropped, and beaten,familiar grip and button layout and not some lightweight camera that doesn’t balance out our super telephotos with terrrible ergonomics. Mega pixels will not make me or other professionals think we should get this new camera but if improved autofocus and 10bit internally recorded video to Cfast is a thing then yes we professionals will consider. I like Cfast, I like it a lot, and 2 Cfast slots would be nice but one is still fine, having a 1tb Cfast makes having a second slot close to moot. The 1dxmkii is an incredible and reliable camera, it will be hard to beat.



---

Depends upon the company! As soon as the 1Dxmk2 came we went out and bought 32 of them! Then the C700 Global Shutter camera came out and ANOTHER 32 were bought and again with the Sony Venice another 32 were bought and as soon as that certain BIG media company that's coming out real soon now with that fancy DCI 8K Video/50 megapixel with 60 fps full size stills AND video at 4:4:4:4 16-bits per RGBAD/YCbCrAD channel MF-size sensor combined stills/video camera after finishing up with our codec, we'll get another 32 of those cameras! (at a much reduced price of course since WE made the codec!) You think cameras are expensive? Try buying 64 (i.e. 32 of two zoom lenses of different focal ranges) Fujinon Cinema Zooms at $90,000 a pop! What a bill that was!

SO YES people and companies DO BUY cameras as soon as they come out and will throw them away or give them to staff as soon as the next big thing comes out! The KEY THING is to think of your business as a WAY TO MAKE MONEY! Ergo, buy the gear that will make you MONEY consistently and ALSO get the latest and greatest gear if it will make MORE MONEY than what you will spend by at least 50% (preferably 100%) in the first year! It makes SENSE to spend a few thousands (or a few million!) if the return you get is a few tens of thousands (or 10+ million!) in the first year or two! If you look at it that way, you can MENTALLY JUSTIFY getting the latest and greatest as soon as it comes out. THEN it makes finanical sense to spend the big bucks up front! Don't think of what you're spending NOW. Think of what your final return will be and spend enough to GET that return in the time period you need to!
.
.


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 22, 2019)

Mr. Majestyk:

Ooh, 21.8MP, 16fps,, Tweaked 61pt AF, dual CFExpress, blah blah blah.

Maybe they can surprise, but surprising us would be a surprise nowadays in itself. Hopefully it's not another lame update like the 1DXII and they go out with a bang.

My specs:
24.2MP stacked sensor, 1/200s read speed
14EV DR @ISO80-125, 0.5EV more DR through rest of range than 1DXII
ISO 80-102K, expanded to ISO 40-808K, same per-pixel noise as 1DXII
Hybrid operation. 14fps mechanical shutter
10fps e-shutter using DPAF, LV through hybrid OVF+EVF (3.69MP)
all new AF covering 70% of VF, few hundred points, all x-type to f/5.6, subset x-type to f/8, central cluster x-type @ f/11. AF down to EV -5
eye-AF in LV and AF-C up to 10fps
New efficient video codecs, no more mjpg garbage, 200Mb/s, c-log, zebras,
[email protected] 24p,25p,30p, 48p, 50p, 60p, from 5K and downsampled
1080p @ 240p, 180p, 120p as well as standard options
illuminated buttons
flip-out screen
Dual CFExpress
1.4kg

===

DONE !!! AND A WHOLE LOT MORE...... 
.


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## HarryFilm (Feb 22, 2019)

rwvaughn said:


> Mirrorless is not yet ready or advanced enough for Olympic sports, professional sports or college sports action regardless of how much we wish it were. Not when a photographer makes a living based on personal reputation and the ability to provide that magic money making shot. Anyone that claims mirrorless is ready right now is fooling themselves or very naive.



===

Are you telling me my Phantom Flex 4K Global Shutter Cinema Camera at 4096 by 2304 pixels (9.4 megapixels) at 1000 fps which i've taken to some of the biggest sports and media events in the world WON'T have it's output accepted by a big magazine? (it has!) Mirrorless operation has been on both video and still cameras for DECADES (ever since Sony HyperHAD 1990's era DigiBeta and Kodak Digital Backs) and even then, those 756 by 486 pixel images were accepted at 24p/30p/60i frame rates for global newspaper and magazine publication once resampled using high end image resizer software!

So MIRRORLESS HAS BEEN READY FOR DECADES! Some of my STILL FRAME images were only 756 by 486 pixels but ended up in GLOBAL European and USA publications. I think Canon (and that OTHER monster-sized media company!) can EASILY make 4K/8K (30+/50+ megapixel) Pro-Level Mirrorless Still and/or Video Cameras whose output will EASILY be accepted for print and web publication!
.
Many times the shot itself is far more important than what the camera resolution and format it was taken with! Even in those days, it was nice during a World Cup or Olympic match to be able to take a 24 fps video sequence and simply CHOOSE which still frame you like with the MOST emotional impact and then simply crop and resample (i.e. using a high end fractal-like resizer) to the desired TIFF format and resolution specified by the magazine or news publication. Since a real-time Internet didn't really exist in those days, we had to use MULTIPLE dialup modems to send a finished 3200 by 2400 pixel (4:3 aspect ratio) CMYK TIFF file (30.8 megabytes) in less than two to four hours so they could publish for print the next day! (you usually carried 4 to 8 of the 19.2 Kbaud portable modems with you in your pack and plugged them into multiple wall phone sockets so we could aggregate them as a single "virtual" 153.6 Kbaud connection. it was a SLOW process compared to today BUT BACK THEN in the early 1990's it was considered a TOP-OF-THE-LINE portable and FAST connection speed setup!
.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 22, 2019)

Ah, good old Harry. I wanted a reason to switch off again and here it is.....

_ “Some of my STILL FRAME images were only 756 by 486 pixels but ended up in GLOBAL European and USA publications.”_

Link to one of them.


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## AlanF (Feb 22, 2019)

Dreamwalker Photography said:


> Actually, that's not completely true. If it was, we'd still be driving around in Ford Model Ts. Industry innovates, oft times based on research breakthroughs or on sheer speculation (along with some educated guesses), and then the market either accepts or rejects.
> 
> I do agree that the market has the final say, but the market is more often than not the follower of new technologies...not the arbiter. However, more than once has a company deliberately steered its market in a direction the market did not necessarily want to go, and left the nonadopters in the dust. Re: Adobe and their subscription model. Pentax and the switch from the M42 mount to a bayonet. Canon switching from the FD mount to the EF. It happens all the time.
> 
> Do I believe Canon will drop the EF mount anytime soon? No. It's far too established and the RF line is too immature and narrow as it stands. Will Canon drop the EF line in the future? Of course; that's called progress. One day, perhaps years from now, the EF line will be as dead as the FD mount. That doesn't mean that all Canons will be mirrorless at that time. A DSLR body could be designed to incorporate an RF mount. Canon did it before when they shifted from FD to EF. History does tend to repeat itself.


"History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce." Karl Marx


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## Dreamwalker Photography (Feb 22, 2019)

nchoh said:


> Your argument rests on one assumption; that mirrorless renders DSLR obsolete... or, to be fair, that mirrorless provides 10 times or more utility that DSLRs. Currently mirrorless does not do that. In fact, mirrorless currently does not beat DSLRs in all aspects. Battery life and the ability to see through the camera when it is off are 2 characteristics.
> 
> Doubtless battery technology and electronics advancements will make battery life a moot point in the future. However, that Sony, Panasonic and FujiFilm all don't have credible competitors to DSLR would lead me to believe that Canon will release new DSLR models once the RF push has subsided somewhat.



Sorry, I made no such assumptions. In fact, I do not believe, as I clearly inferred in my last paragraph, that mirrorless will completely supplant the DSLR. I simply stated that I would love to see a mirrorless R body functionally equivalent to my 1D X, 1D X MkII, or the forthcoming(?) MKIII. My Sony a9 is a terrific camera, and beats my Xs in so many ways, however, it is not a professional body like the X.

Where you got the "...mirrorless provides 10 times or more utility that DSLRs..." remark from is a mystery. I never made any such claim, as it is really preposterous.

I hope that Canon will continue to support the EF line, as I have a 45 strong EF lens inventory costing over $100k. No way I want to drop them and completely switch over to RF. Do I think that someday the EF will be replaced by the RF? Yes. Years or decades, not in months or weeks. Will there be a DSLR with an RF mount? It's definitely possible from an engineering standpoint, but who knows?


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## unfocused (Feb 22, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Ah, good old Harry. I wanted a reason to switch off again and here it is.....
> 
> _ “Some of my STILL FRAME images were only 756 by 486 pixels but ended up in GLOBAL European and USA publications.”_
> 
> Link to one of them.


I don't have the link, but I'm pretty sure it was in the "Journal of Delusional Psychosis."


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## Sparky (Feb 22, 2019)

kaptainkatsu said:


> 20fps can only be achieved in certain use cases on the a9


I have an A9 and a 1DXii. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. The Sony A9 is very good and the frame rate excellent. However, it’s designed to be shot electronically. The standard shutter is 5FPS, which is poor when under artificial lighting and avoiding the risk of banding. You also need the standard shutter for flash work. However, I expect the next iteration of the A9 is going to be quite something. It is tiny, but you can add a grip to make it bigger. Personally, though, I still prefer the canon as high frame rate shooting is much more fun than seeing a little grey box flicker on the EVF. The canon ergonomically is also much better for me as I have big hands and my finger gets jammed between the lens and the grip on the A9.


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## HarryFilm (Feb 22, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Ah, good old Harry. I wanted a reason to switch off again and here it is.....
> 
> _ “Some of my STILL FRAME images were only 756 by 486 pixels but ended up in GLOBAL European and USA publications.”_
> 
> Link to one of them.



---

Then you would KNOW who I really am and THAT would be a VERY BAD IDEA on my part!

My name isn't famous but some of my photos are (infamous?) and you would DEFINITELY KNOW THEM especially if you're a bit older (35+)!

I'll decline that challenge for now......
.


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## Ozarker (Feb 22, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> Then you would KNOW who I really am and THAT would be a VERY BAD IDEA on my part!
> 
> ...


OMG! Don't know how we all missed it before! He's Clint Eastwood!


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## hollybush (Feb 22, 2019)

Dreamwalker Photography said:


> Clearly, you haven't looked through the electronic viewfinder of the Sony a7RIII or a9. They are as good if not better—especially with very long glass— as any optical viewfinder from Canon, including the 1D X Mk II.



I have, and they're not. Can't you see the pixels?

I'll grant you with long lenses in dim conditions the EVF will be brighter. That could be desirable for sports. For wildlife it usually isn't, because your eye's iris closes down, which makes it harder to see through binoculars or just with the bare eye; wildlife photography often involves swapping between.


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## Don Haines (Feb 22, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> OMG! Don't know how we all missed it before! He's Clint Eastwood!


No way.... Clint isn’t constantly bragging about having a helicopter..... but Harry does remind me of the back end of Midnight.


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## slclick (Feb 22, 2019)

Dirty Harryfilm


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## Don Haines (Feb 23, 2019)

slclick said:


> Dirty Harryfilm


I know what you are thinking..... did I take five pictures or did I take six pictures? Well, in all this excitement I kind of forgot. Now this is a 1DX3, the most powerful camera in the world and it can blow your highlights out, so you have to ask yourself, “ do I feel Lucky”... well punk, do you feel lucky?


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 23, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> I know what you are thinking..... did I take five pictures or did I take six pictures? Well, in all this excitement I kind of forgot. Now this is a 1DX3, the most powerful camera in the world and it can blow your highlights out, so you have to ask yourself, “ do I feel Lucky”... well punk, do you feel lucky?



---

To sort of, somewhat, maybe give you an idea what we did in the old days, here is a STILL FRAME capture from a consumer-level 1920 by 1080 HDTV VIDEO CAMERA we took from a helicopter on the British Columbia coast which we processed, modfied and sharpened for ERROR DIFFUSION PRINTING at 2400 dpi purposes around 2004 if I remember correctly. The CONTENT of the image itself is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than it's actual quality (which is actually quite noisy and poor!). The SUBJECT MATTER and FRAMING of any given image IS ALWAYS MORE IMPACTFUL than it's absolute viewing quality! The image taken by the 6 megapixel Canon G2 was NOT accepted while the 1080p still frame video grab WAS accepted for printing!

So even the OLDEST 756 x 486 pixel DigiBeta still frame video capture can be printed at high resolution IF you know what you're doing AND the magazine accepts. SOME DO. SOME WON'T! The key thing is a proper de-interlacer and fractal resizer and some judicious colour correction and sharpening. If a publishing house accepts THIS image even IF it's from a VIDEO CAMERA, don't you think an agency will accept and PAY for an image that is IMPACTFUL and EMOTIONALLY TOUCHING?
.


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## canonmike (Feb 23, 2019)

Del Paso said:


> Really good news from Canon, I'm also hoping for a EOS 5D V !


Given the intense mirrorless development and marketing going on now at Canon, I would make a small wager that the next 5D will likely be a 5DR mirrorless, by any name, not a 5D v DSLR. We better start liking mirrorless as it now appears obvious that's going to be where all the R & D money is going. Hoping for more DSLR offerings may be a little optimistic at this point, not that it hurts to hope.


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## slclick (Feb 23, 2019)

Lots of big words on these forum these days ^^^^^^^^^ I don't many of use them and I don't understand your sensor science chat but folks still like my photographs, enough to purchase them!...that is much more important than arguing about specs.


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## HarryFilm (Feb 23, 2019)

slclick said:


> Lots of big words on these forum these days ^^^^^^^^^ I don't many of use them and I don't understand your sensor science chat but folks still like my photographs, enough to purchase them!...that is much more important than arguing about specs.



---

AND even IF your photo was taken by 640 by 480 Fisher Price toy camera, it will STILL be accepted and PAID FOR by any news agency IF the CONTENT of the photo is compelling enough and of high emotionally impact to a large audience! Sooooo.....WHO CARES if you have a Canon 1DxMk2/Mk3 or an iPhone? If you KNOW how to frame your photos, crop them properly and do some BASIC colour correction, THEY CAN AND WILL BE ACCEPTED by almost any print or web publisher for widespread paid distribution! 

Subject Matter! Subject Matter! Subject Matter!

Content! Content! Content!

Framing! Framing! Framing!

Cropping! Cropping! Cropping!

Emotional Impact! Emotional Impact! Emotional Impact!

Resolution and camera used? Who Cares if you have the above FIVE concepts down pat!

.

Again, the BEST CAMERA is always the one in your hands READY FOR RIGHT NOW !!!

.
,


----------



## slclick (Feb 23, 2019)

jk, I get most of the jargon however it bores me to tears


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## Don Haines (Feb 23, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> AND even IF your photo was taken by 640 by 480 Fisher Price toy camera, it will STILL be accepted and PAID FOR by any news agency IF the CONTENT of the photo is compelling enough and of high emotionally impact to a large audience! Sooooo.....WHO CARES if you have a Canon 1DxMk2/Mk3 or an iPhone? If you KNOW how to frame your photos, crop them properly and do some BASIC colour correction, THEY CAN AND WILL BE ACCEPTED by almost any print or web publisher for widespread paid distribution!
> 
> ...


At the risk of agreeing with Harry......

Bigfoot! Nessie! UFOs! The only pictures are low resolution and badly blurred, yet there are people who pay plenty for them and they always get featured prominently in the tabloids..... 1DX2 level AF systems are not needed there


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## Quarkcharmed (Feb 23, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> At the risk of agreeing with Harry......
> 
> Bigfoot! Nessie! UFOs! The only pictures are low resolution and badly blurred, yet there are people who pay plenty for them and they always get featured prominently in the tabloids..... 1DX2 level AF systems are not needed there



Moreover a top level AF system would probably prevent you from taking a good bigfoot photo.


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## Pape (Feb 23, 2019)

maybe there isnt enough contrast on ufos and bigfoots to af focus properly ,kind of hazy things. and bigfoots are night animals.
Btw i cant look through my dslr when power is off ,its out of focus


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 23, 2019)

Pape said:


> Btw i cant look through my dslr when power is off ,its out of focus


Even if the battery is charged and installed?


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## Pape (Feb 23, 2019)

i mean i need power on to autofocus.
someone just claimed : mirrorless currently does not beat DSLRs in all aspects. Battery life and the ability to see through the camera when it is off are 2 characteristics.


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## chik0240 (Feb 23, 2019)

I think able to look through the ovf when it’s off is a big advantage, beside battery life it’s also advantage that a dslr when switched to on without pressing button is basically not consuming power, but a mirrorless will always need to be turned off when not expected to be used in some time to prevent it drained the battery and gets heating up.

So it’s a plus to dslr whenever you need to quickly react to something in surprise


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## degos (Feb 23, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> AND even IF your photo was taken by 640 by 480 Fisher Price toy camera, it will STILL be accepted and PAID FOR by any news agency IF the CONTENT of the photo is compelling enough and of high emotionally impact to a large audience!



Conversely if I submitted a blurry or poorly-framed photo in my area of interest it would be rejected forthwith, regardless of subject rarity.

Quite often I'll come back from a shoot and delete all my photos. I'd rather have no photos of an event than technically crap photos.

You can't just make blanket assertions about what's important in photography. News agencies and their requirements are irrelevant to 99% of photographers.


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## -pekr- (Feb 23, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Actually, it's the other way around. _When we_ stop liking mirrors, then Canon will stop refreshing lenses in EF mount.
> 
> 
> It would be very stupid for a sensor maker not to make money on sensors for automation these days. A market for medical imaging is not that big.



Let's not also forget, and if I am not mistaken, that Canon owns an AXIS. I know those are different kind of cameras, but still a possibility of some sensor technology to share.


----------



## Proscribo (Feb 23, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> 24.2MP stacked sensor, 1/200s read speed


Make that 1/350s and drop the mechanical shutter, that'd be interesting.


----------



## Talys (Feb 23, 2019)

Pape said:


> i mean i need power on to autofocus.
> someone just claimed : mirrorless currently does not beat DSLRs in all aspects. Battery life and the ability to see through the camera when it is off are 2 characteristics.


Using zero power when the camera is effectively a telescope is a real thing. I can observe a bird for an hour before taking a shot, or maybe not at all because I'm just learning their behaviour.

AF flash illuminator that works is another thing. Obviously, for strobists and flash photography, wysiwyg EVF is much less exciting.

Anyways, when it comes down to it, they are different tools with their own merits, but you don't hear DSLR shooters wishing mirrorless would die off. Personally, I hope that both continue to be improved for a long time to come, and I'm glad that MILCs give the camera manufacturers some extra revenue.


----------



## Larsskv (Feb 23, 2019)

nchoh said:


> Your argument rests on one assumption; that mirrorless renders DSLR obsolete... or, to be fair, that mirrorless provides 10 times or more utility that DSLRs. Currently mirrorless does not do that. In fact, mirrorless currently does not beat DSLRs in all aspects. Battery life and the ability to see through the camera when it is off are 2 characteristics.
> 
> Doubtless battery technology and electronics advancements will make battery life a moot point in the future. However, that Sony, Panasonic and FujiFilm all don't have credible competitors to DSLR would lead me to believe that Canon will release new DSLR models once the RF push has subsided somewhat.



And looking through an EVF in strong lighting conditions is really unpleasant compared to an OVF. I own the EOS R, and I think it is very good in most ways, but I don’t like using it in strong light. Highlights and shadows does not look natural, and using an EVF in such conditions takes the joy out of photography. I hope the OVF stays for a long time, AND I hope newer DSLRs comes with exchangeable matte screens, such as the 1D series, the 6D, 5D classic and 5DII.


----------



## Architect1776 (Feb 23, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



The MIII is interesting.
I would like to see the same (Better) performance from an RX pro camera.
Equal ruggedness and all the other pro features.
But rather than charge 6K bring the price down to 3K and sell millions of them.
Canon could do it and still have a huge profit margin at that price.
Keep lens prices as they are if they want but even bring them down.
With automation that they have and yes keep the quality and skilled labor where needed.
They could walk away after the 1DX series is closed down.


----------



## Talys (Feb 23, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> But rather than charge 6K bring the price down to 3K and sell millions of them.



I don't think so. If 1DX were $3000, Canon would not sell millions of them, because it isn't a great camera for a lot if casual and enthusiast photographers. It is too heavy and large for a lot of people, a lot of folks don't care about a rotatable/gripped body, and in the midrange, megapixels sell cameras, especially where a user wants to be able to crop more deeply (possibly because they don't want to swap lenses or don't own a longer lens). 

And anyways, I don't see even the perfect full frame ILC selling millions of units af $3k - that is just too much money for a lot of people.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 23, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> ...
> But rather than charge 6K bring the price down to 3K and sell millions of them.
> Canon could do it and still have a huge profit margin at that price....



Bring the price to design a building down to $1,000 and design millions. You could do it and still have a huge profit margin at that price.


----------



## Don Haines (Feb 23, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Bring the price to design a building down to $1,000 and design millions. You could do it and still have a huge profit margin at that price.


It worked for LEGO.......


----------



## djack41 (Feb 23, 2019)

hollybush said:


> I have, and they're not. Can't you see the pixels?
> 
> I'll grant you with long lenses in dim conditions the EVF will be brighter. That could be desirable for sports. For wildlife it usually isn't, because your eye's iris closes down, which makes it harder to see through binoculars or just with the bare eye; wildlife photography often involves swapping between.


Tracking fast subjects such as bird-in-flight is far easier with an EVF which has no mirror black-out.


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## slclick (Feb 23, 2019)

Talys said:


> , but you don't hear DSLR shooters wishing mirrorless would die off.




Thank you, this needed to be said! Folks are so wrapped up in believing the death of one mode because of the birth of another, it's almost comical.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 24, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Tracking fast subjects such as bird-in-flight is far easier with an EVF which has no mirror black-out.


Only if they are in a hawk like death dive, I found fast vertical tracking movements no issue but horizontal tracking with an EVF gave me a seasick kind of motion queeziness. No way was the tracking better for fast moving horizontal subjects with an EVF.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 24, 2019)

Larsskv said:


> And looking through an EVF in strong lighting conditions is really unpleasant compared to an OVF. I own the EOS R, and I think it is very good in most ways, but I don’t like using it in strong light. Highlights and shadows does not look natural, and using an EVF in such conditions takes the joy out of photography. I hope the OVF stays for a long time, AND I hope newer DSLRs comes with exchangeable matte screens, such as the 1D series, the 6D, 5D classic and 5DII.



EVFs are also next to worthless in astro conditions. I can see and manually focus stars and even the Milky Way through a good OVF. I have yet to get anything but static in LiveView or in an EVF under the same conditions. Not to mention that an EVF destroys your night vision in one eye. I'll grant that when I'm shooting astro I'm generally reviewing the shot and thereby wrecking my night vision any way, but I could leave my night vision untouched with an OVF. No option to with mirrorless.


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## Ozarker (Feb 24, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> The MIII is interesting.
> I would like to see the same (Better) performance from an RX pro camera.
> Equal ruggedness and all the other pro features.
> But rather than charge 6K bring the price down to 3K and sell millions of them.
> ...


And just how do you know Canon could do that and still have a "huge" profit margin? Fantasy much?


----------



## 3kramd5 (Feb 24, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> EVFs are also next to worthless in astro conditions. I can see and manually focus stars and even the Milky Way through a good OVF. I have yet to get anything but static in LiveView or in an EVF under the same conditions. Not to mention that an EVF destroys your night vision in one eye. I'll grant that when I'm shooting astro I'm generally reviewing the shot and thereby wrecking my night vision any way, but I could leave my night vision untouched with an OVF. No option to with mirrorless.


Agreed. I tried it and hated it.

I read a lot about “WYSIWYG,” but it isn’t really true. What you see is a JPEG preview of an illuminated screen compensating for ambient light from the viewer’s perspective. I shot tens of thousands of photos using the EVF for exposure which are vastly underexposed before realizing I need the histogram to be displayed.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 24, 2019)

Talys said:


> I don't think so. If 1DX were $3000, Canon would not sell millions of them, because it isn't a great camera for a lot if casual and enthusiast photographers. It is too heavy and large for a lot of people, a lot of folks don't care about a rotatable/gripped body, and in the midrange, megapixels sell cameras, especially where a user wants to be able to crop more deeply (possibly because they don't want to swap lenses or don't own a longer lens).
> 
> And anyways, I don't see even the perfect full frame ILC selling millions of units af $3k - that is just too much money for a lot of people.


Craziness. These people equate whatever they happen to dream up with reality. Stuck in the tween years, intellectually. They have absolutely no idea what these complex machines cost to manufacture, but that matters not when one deals in fantasyland economics.


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## Aussie shooter (Feb 24, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Tracking fast subjects such as bird-in-flight is far easier with an EVF which has no mirror black-out.


Tracking birds through an evf sucks ass. Even with no blackout. OVF is still king in the widife world. One day EVFs will likely come close to matching an OVF. At least they will be good enough to not be unpleasant to use. But that is not the case yet. They still cause eye fatigue.


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## AlanF (Feb 24, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Tracking fast subjects such as bird-in-flight is far easier with an EVF which has no mirror black-out.


What camera are you using to track birds in flight and what is its refresh rate?


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## Joules (Feb 24, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> Tracking birds through an evf sucks ass. Even with no blackout. OVF is still king in the widife world. One day EVFs will likely come close to matching an OVF. At least they will be good enough to not be unpleasant to use. But that is not the case yet. They still cause eye fatigue.


I don't think that coming close is all that what you call EVF will acomplish.

Focussing isn't about EVF or OVF. Using the imaging sensor vs a dedicated AF sensor is what really matters.

In THEORY, using the sensor is far superior. Period.

The sensor is guaranteed to be in the same plane where the image is captured, unlike a dedicated AF sensor, which could be off by a small distance and therefore require AFMA.

Because the focus sensors in a DSLR are exposed to light only when the mirror is in the optical path, and the light that hits the mirror is mostly used for the OVF, they can utilize only a portion of the light that would be available to sensor based Autofocus, where nothing sits infront of the sensor at any time.

And obviously, since an image sensor can capture an image, it can utilize the image content to make better decisions on focus. Eye AF is an example for this. And I think this is what the guy you responded to meant.

The thing is, making good use of the additional number of focusing points and the much richer amount of information from a sensor based focus system requires much more processing power and faster ways to read the Information from the sensor. And that is something that is difficult with small devices like cameras in general, and Canon seem to be struggling a lot with it in particular.

But they seem to push into very high resolution sensors with the rumored 100 MP mirrorless and the upcoming 32 MP 7D II + 80D replacement. Maybe they managed to get some of that under control.

If they do the same thing with the high res crop camera and the high res mirrorless like they did with the 7D II and 5Ds and just scale up the sensor, the high res mirrorless would have about 32 * 1.6^2 = 82 megapixel. Assuming they wouldn't go backwards from the 5 fps in the 5Ds, but keep it at that speed, it would be a camera with ~30% more throuput than the 1D XII. To acomplish that, they must have made some progress with their weakness.

Factoring in the size difference between 14 and 12 bit, 5 FPS at 82 mp is basically the same throughput as the Sony A9 handles with 20 FPS at 24 mp. It make me hopefull that Canon has suceeded with their stacked sensor research... But being Canon, I better don't get my hopes up.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 24, 2019)

Joules said:


> In THEORY, using the sensor is far superior. Period.
> 
> The sensor is guaranteed to be in the same plane where the image is captured, unlike a dedicated AF sensor, which could be off by a small distance and therefore require AFMA.
> 
> Because the focus sensors in a DSLR are exposed to light only when the mirror is in the optical path, and the light that hits the mirror is mostly used for the OVF, they can utilize only a portion of the light that would be available to sensor based Autofocus, where nothing sits infront of the sensor at any time.



It’s a trade. Capture sensor based AF doesn’t have everything in the “pro” column.

Dedicated AF sensors for example are not constrained by the size and location prescribed by the capture sensor. They can be purpose-built.

Also, while much of the light is split off to the OVF, the AF sensors are full spectrum, whereas the vast majority of the light hitting the capture sensor is filtered out for the purpose of color reproduction.

One could build a small black and white (i.e., no color filter array sitting in front of it) sensor with large pixels and use it instead of discrete AF sensors and benefit from subject recognition in an SLR.




It is true that there are more things to align when not using the capture sensor for AF. Also there is a small finite delay between focus and capture associated with the mirror moving. But it is not as clearcut as I think you’re suggesting.


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## Proscribo (Feb 24, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Also, while much of the light is split off to the OVF, the AF sensors are full spectrum, whereas the vast majority of the light hitting the capture sensor is filtered out for the purpose of color reproduction.
> 
> One could build a small black and white (i.e., no color filter array sitting in front of it) sensor with large pixels and use it instead of discrete AF sensors and benefit from subject recognition in an SLR.


But then again colour information can also be used to make better AF under certain circumstances.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Feb 24, 2019)

Proscribo said:


> But then again colour information can also be used to make better AF under certain circumstances.


In some circumstances it could probably be used to make subject recognition and tracking better, but not the focus determination (as far as any system aware of anyway). That’s probably what you meant.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 24, 2019)

Proscribo said:


> But then again colour information can also be used to make better AF under certain circumstances.


But then again, color (+IR) information is already used in Canon's mirrorslappers to guide the AF sensor.

What's more, is that the dedicated AF sensor does not need to be planar. One may have several semi-transparent sensors at different planes to better detect the phase shift (and to better compensate for the geometric adjustments potentially needed).


----------



## analoggrotto (Feb 24, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> It depends on what you shoot. I do not believe all these people would be shooting with sub par AF.
> 
> 
> Now when the 1D MkIII AF was genuinely suspect the white to black lens ratio changed drastically, now, very heavily leans to the white for the highest end pros that live and eat by their AF performance.



If its that good, I do wish the chasm between it and the 5D were as narrow as that between, say, the D5 and lower nikon dSLR series. 

I've tried a D850's AF, its just too good but im not letting go of my EF 50mm F1.2 for it.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 24, 2019)

Joules said:


> In THEORY, using the sensor is far superior. Period.



The reason off-mirror PDAF sensors maintain some AF advantages even today is because they can be purpose built to more accurately measure phase differences and predict the correct distance the lens has to move. On sensor PDAF and DPAF elements are constrained in their design and therefore in the information they can provide. That's why after 10 years comparatively few MILCs have AF which is as fast or as confident as SLRs on initial acquisition, or as capable on point tracking (as opposed to AI subject tracking).

So no, using the sensor is not far superior in every way period. That doesn't mean MILC AF won't eventually match or exceed SLR AF in all respects. A lot of effort continues to be put into making MILC AF as good as or better than pro sports SLR AF. But they have to rely on more sophisticated software, processing more data points more times per second, to try and beat a simple, purpose built PDAF module.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 24, 2019)

analoggrotto said:


> If its that good, I do wish the chasm between it and the 5D were as narrow as that between, say, the D5 and lower nikon dSLR series.
> 
> I've tried a D850's AF, its just too good but im not letting go of my EF 50mm F1.2 for it.



Define "good." Nikon has more intelligent subject tracking in their top end SLR AF right now. But do pros _use_ those modes? Or are they just practiced in using a single AF point or point cluster? Canon has always done very well at the top end with single AF point acquisition and tracking speeds.

I can tell you that in the two fields where I have a portfolio of work that's comparable to a paid sports photographer I don't use or care to use any subject tracking modes. Early on...before any of that existed...I learned to make the most of a single AF point. And now I find I can more reliably achieve and track focus with a single point (or single + assist points) than I can with any subject tracking modes.

I'm not saying that's best for any/every situation, or that it will continue to be best years from now. But it wouldn't surprise me to find out that a lot of pro photographers are still employing techniques that do not rely on subject recognition and tracking.


----------



## analoggrotto (Feb 24, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> Define "good." Nikon has more intelligent subject tracking in their top end SLR AF right now. But do pros _use_ those modes? Or are they just practiced in using a single AF point or point cluster? Canon has always done very well at the top end with single AF point acquisition and tracking speeds.
> 
> I can tell you that in the two fields where I have a portfolio of work that's comparable to a paid sports photographer I don't use or care to use any subject tracking modes. Early on...before any of that existed...I learned to make the most of a single AF point. And now I find I can more reliably achieve and track focus with a single point (or single + assist points) than I can with any subject tracking modes.
> 
> I'm not saying that's best for any/every situation, or that it will continue to be best years from now. But it wouldn't surprise me to find out that a lot of pro photographers are still employing techniques that do not rely on subject recognition and tracking.



On my 5D4, I use single point or 5 point spread to good effect (and much more accurate and reliable than the 5D3). If the subject moves around rapidly, then its lost. The D850's intelligent tracking could save a situation like this. Subject tracking would certainly open up some possiblities and its better than ever. I dont know what pros do, I dont know any. I'd have gotten the 1Dx2 but I crop a lot for birds and such. Somehow this has reminded me that I never updated the firmware on my 5D4 in the year i've owned it.


----------



## Don Haines (Feb 24, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> Define "good." Nikon has more intelligent subject tracking in their top end SLR AF right now. But do pros _use_ those modes? Or are they just practiced in using a single AF point or point cluster? Canon has always done very well at the top end with single AF point acquisition and tracking speeds.
> 
> I can tell you that in the two fields where I have a portfolio of work that's comparable to a paid sports photographer I don't use or care to use any subject tracking modes. Early on...before any of that existed...I learned to make the most of a single AF point. And now I find I can more reliably achieve and track focus with a single point (or single + assist points) than I can with any subject tracking modes.
> 
> I'm not saying that's best for any/every situation, or that it will continue to be best years from now. But it wouldn't surprise me to find out that a lot of pro photographers are still employing techniques that do not rely on subject recognition and tracking.


I also tend to use a single AF point, with the exception ring birds in flight. It is said that the vast majority of DSLRs spend their life in “green box mode” and for that the full spread of AF points is important , but obviously this does not apply to a 1DX2......


----------



## Aussie shooter (Feb 24, 2019)

Joules said:


> I don't think that coming close is all that what you call EVF will acomplish.
> 
> Focussing isn't about EVF or OVF. Using the imaging sensor vs a dedicated AF sensor is what really matters.
> 
> ...


I think you missed my point. I absolutely agree with you that on sensor AF has more POTENTIAL than off sensor AF but i wasn't talking about the AF. I was specifically referring to the experience of looking through and EVF as opposed to an OVF. It is unpleasant to do so for any length of time and the resolution, refresh rate and computer screen like appearance all combined to make it far poorer than a completely natural OVF. That may change in the future. I don't think it will ever be 100 percent as good but it should get close enough that the overall functionality of an EVF becomes worth the compromise.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 24, 2019)

analoggrotto said:


> If its that good, I do wish the chasm between it and the 5D were as narrow as that between, say, the D5 and lower nikon dSLR series.
> 
> I've tried a D850's AF, its just too good but im not letting go of my EF 50mm F1.2 for it.


Now wouldn't disagree with that necessarily, though I don't have a lot of 5 series shooting experience the main reason I bought 1Ds MkIII's was the superior AF over the 5 series, even though they cost over twice as much at the time.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 25, 2019)

padam said:


> Maybe it will be a further evolution (R is supposed to be the revolution...) and besides being a new standard for speed, they will simply add in things that were left out before without compromising durability.
> 
> Things like wifi, C-Log, newer codecs, 4k 10-bit HDMI out, true silent mode in LV, all the DPAF focus modes enabled, intervalometer, full touchscreen(probably still fixed), dual CFast, etc.
> 
> Of course, if they want to raise eyebrows, they might do a hybrid OVF/EVF as well...



The 1D X has never been mistaken for a video camera. It's built for one thing: speed for stills. You might notice that there has not been a 1D C Mark II version of the 1D X Mark II.

If Canon ever does that in a stills camera (they won't because they sell video cameras that do all of that), it would be in a 5-series type of body, not a 1-series.



dolina said:


> You would think they'll release an A9 & A7R3 rival with SDXC UHS-II support before July 2020.



Why? The tracking AF performance of the 1D X Mark II is better than both of those. It doesn't matter how many frames per second one can shoot if 2/3 of them are not acceptably in focus.




padam said:


> It will be a new sensor (as always) and 24MP seems logical, although the video folks will be annoyed by the increased 4k crop factor.



No one buys a 1D X as a video camera. Very few even bought the 1D C as a video camera. You might notice that there has not been a 1D C Mark II version of the 1D X Mark II.




dolina said:


> Sony appears to have done that with their A9. Canon has at least 2 more RF bodies to release within 17 months.



Not really. The α9 slows down to 1D X Mark II frame rates when AF tracking is desired between each frame. Or when using the wrong E-mount lenses. It's as slow as the EOS R when using adapted Canon lenses.



Sean C said:


> I think it all hinges on how capable Canon is able to make the dual pixel focus, and what impact that has on sensor quality. (missing pixels for the AF sensors, heat, electrical noise) That's also going to drive whether an R 5Dsr-ish body appears, as we don't know how small the dual pixel AF sensels can be with good performance, or whether sales volume can justify a new revision of that body. Otherwise a high rez studio body seems like something that'd show off the new top tier glass and be used for things where accuracy is more important than AF speed which also seems to be a good fit.



DP CMOS does not "drop" the sensels it uses for AF. 80% of the sensels on a DP CMOS sensor are available for AF. The data from them are also included in the image. That's one reason reading them out takes so long...



Pape said:


> I bet next R camera and 1dx3 are both 35mpix cameras so they can do 8k .
> Doesnt sound logical they make highpixel R next ,for marginal highpixel camera user base .
> They need good 35mpixel camere next for R



The 1D X Mark III is not about video. It's about sports/reportage.




Sharlin said:


> Yes, but Sony does not have the sort of problem with continuous AF and FPS that Canon appears to.



With continuous AF between every frame, the α9 slows down to 15 fps with all but a handful of lenses.




digitalride said:


> I'm reluctant to even bring this up but I did see some idiot on some forum referencing this video as proof that using the adapter introduced focusing errors:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pros that use the 1D-series know that their great whites work with 1.4X extenders. They also know that an EF-RF adapter is simpler than an extender.

They're not the same crowd that uses cheap third party adapters in order to use a new mirrorless body that only has electrical connections to its native lenses with a 50 year old mechanically operated lens and then wonders why everything doesn't work perfectly.



slclick said:


> Have experienced 1DXii users (those who use the correct or custom case settings) been complaining about not having the fps they need?
> 
> Some folks here are great at disguising their lack of experience or ownership of certain models which they harp upon.



Spec sheet warriors have no clue that if you can't get it with 14 fps, 30 fps or 60fps ain't gonna' help you. It's just gonna' give you more bad frames to sort through. (Yes there are very rare use cases where the additional fps is useful, but most of those do not require continuous tracking between frames, and very few would benefit from higher resolution than 4K frame grabs at 30 or 60 fps.)



dolina said:


> A bird photographer friend of mine sold his 1DX2 for an A9 to match with his Canon 600 Series 2 lens. He's very happy with it and is not looking at moving back to DSLR.
> 
> I would be very surprised if they come out with a DSLR-based replacement of the 1DX2.



Does he realize that with adapted lenses, the α9 slows down to 5 fps in continuous AF tracking mode? Do you before you made that up?

Prepare to be surprised.



dolina said:


> I've read elsewhere that Canon tends to price newer models a tad higher as to not force a price down of the model being replaced.



You obviously haven't been paying attention lately. The 5D Mark III dropped about $700 a few months before the introduction of the 5D Mark IV at the same price as the 5DIII had sold for many years before it went on sale. The EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II sold for $2,300 for years, then for $2,100 for years after the yen dropped against the dollar (so $2,100 USD was actually worth more yen than $2,300 USD had previously been). Six weeks before the EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS III was announced, the price of the "II" dropped to $1,800. Then the "III" was introduced for the "higher price" of $2,100 USD.



dolina said:


> I've noticed Canon lowering prices of the new model to its street price by its 6th month of introduction.
> 
> If I were to buy any Canon pro product like the 1DX3 MILC it would be after the 2020 Olympics in August.



If you ever buy a 1D X Mark III MILC it will be in your dreams and nowhere else.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 25, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> They would want to release a pro model of 5D and 1D FF mirrorless soon. Nikon, Sony, Panasonic isn't going to sit idle. Tamron already provide great lens for Sony and Sigma will offer for Panasonic option at CP+. As a long time Canon user who has never switch, I'm already toying with the idea of adding a non Canon FF mirrorless camera and using adapter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's the sensor readout speed. Period.

Where are you pulling out that $3,500 number from? The 1D X debuted at $6,800. The 1D X Mark II debuted at $5,999. The 1D X Mark III will _not_ debut at $3,500. You can rate that [CR∞]



RGF said:


> RF/ML is the future. Just like digital supplanted film, RF / ML will supplant the dSLR/EOS sytem



RF _is_ EOS. So is the mirrorless EOS-M system. They're just not EF.


privatebydesign said:


> 13. USB-C



Who needs USB-C when the current and previous versions already have gigabit ethernet ports?



GMCPhotographics said:


> ...and then there's the CPN support network...which Sony hasn't got. I can't imagine Sony support covering large media events like the Olympics...When a pro buys pro gear, he /she is also buying into a support program. I'm a CPN platinum member and I had a dropped 5DIII which needed some extensive repairs. I dropped it into their service center...through Wex...it was back in my hands 2 days later. It's an amazing service for CPN guys. My old Guitar tech used to say...quality gear is easily repairable gear.



I think you mean CPS - Canon Professional Services. CPN is Canon's communication arm that offers tutorials about how to use their products and white papers about those products.



NorskHest said:


> ... a well lit scene looks better with canon color science than a wide open aperture high asa Sony with no lighting.



^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^


analoggrotto said:


> If its that good, I do wish the chasm between it and the 5D were as narrow as that between, say, the D5 and lower nikon dSLR series.
> 
> I've tried a D850's AF, its just too good but im not letting go of my EF 50mm F1.2 for it.



The D5 is on the same level as the EOS 1D X Mark II in terms of AF, but it is the first Nikon flagship that is. The 1D X had better AF than the D4, The 1D Mark IV had far better AF than the D3 and better AF than the D3s. Until the D5, with the exception of the 1D Mark III misstep (where those who switched found out Nikon had nothing any better - the D3 - than the "awful" AF of the 1D Mark III - by the time Nikon released the D3s in 2009 which was what the D3 should have been, Canon had announced the 1D IV), Canon had stayed ahead of Nikon in terms of AF since the introduction of the EOS 1 and USM AF motors in the lens back in the early 1990s.

With the declining revenues possible from shooting the kinds of events we're talking about here (Super Bowl, World Series, etc.), the now prohibitively expensive lens collections have kept most of the existing shooters entrenched in the Canon system, even though Nikon has caught up with the D5, a 500mm prime that is every bit as good as anything Canon sells, and a 70-200/2.8 that is better.



analoggrotto said:


> On my 5D4, I use single point or 5 point spread to good effect (and much more accurate and reliable than the 5D3). If the subject moves around rapidly, then its lost. The D850's intelligent tracking could save a situation like this. Subject tracking would certainly open up some possiblities and its better than ever. I dont know what pros do, I dont know any. I'd have gotten the 1Dx2 but I crop a lot for birds and such. Somehow this has reminded me that I never updated the firmware on my 5D4 in the year i've owned it.



Both your 5D Mark IV and the 1D X Mark II are capable of using Canon's EOS iTR tracking that is very similar to what Nikon's intelligent tracking does. Distance information from the PDAF sensor is combined with color information from the RGB+IR metering sensor to provide subject tracking. A lot of Canon shooters are put off by iTR because it requires the AF point selection mode to be set to 'Auto". What they don't realize is that it still allows them to choose a specific AF point for the initial subject acquisition. If Canon had an "iTR" AF point selection mode that was separate from "Auto", a lot more 1D X and 1D X Mark II users would probably try it.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 25, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> ...Spec sheet warriors have no clue that if you can't get it with 14 fps, 30 fps or 60fps ain't gonna' help you. It's just gonna' give you more bad frames to sort through. (Yes there are very rare use cases where the additional fps is useful, but most of those do not require continuous tracking between frames, and very few would benefit from higher resolution than 4K frame grabs at 30 or 60 fps.)...



Much of what you say is correct, but not this. Golf, baseball and softball are three examples of sports that I shoot where I wouldn't mind having more fps and, sorry, but 4K frame grabs aren't going to do it. Any sport where a small ball is being hit by something big (like a bat, club or racket) can benefit from every possible frame per second. The problem with a frame grab is that you don't have the extra pixels you need for cropping and because you are often distance limited when shooting some sports, the ability to crop the image is critical. Not to mention that framing is often imperfect when shooting sports, so cropping is almost always needed.


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## HarryFilm (Feb 25, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> The 1D X has never been mistaken for a video camera. It's built for one thing: speed for stills. You might notice that there has not been a 1D C Mark II version of the 1D X Mark II.
> 
> No one buys a 1D X as a video camera. Very few even bought the 1D C as a video camera. You might notice that there has not been a 1D C Mark II version of the 1D X Mark II..



--

I kinda beg to differ on that, as our parent company uses the Canon 1Dx Mk2 AS a video camera system for various internal uses AND they bought 32 of them! Yes they bought the 1Dc too but they only bought four of them but once the 1Dx2 came out, they right away got 32 of them too. And when the DCI 4K C700 Global Shutter Cinema Camera came out, they bought 32 of them! AND 32 of the Sony Venice 6K. It depends upon the company, You can use ANY type of camera system for whatever video or still photo use you want. You just have to have the money to buy them. (the parent company can afford it! They're BIG!) Again imagining the amount that was spend to by 64 Fujinon Cinema Zoom lenses! THAT was an incredible bill. Good thing IT WASN'T MY MONEY!
.
.


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## slclick (Feb 25, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Spec sheet warriors have no clue that if you can't get it with 14 fps, 30 fps or 60fps ain't gonna' help you. It's just gonna' give you more bad frames to sort through. (Yes there are very rare use cases where the additional fps is useful, but most of those do not require continuous tracking between frames, and very few would benefit from higher resolution than 4K frame grabs at 30 or 60 fps.)


Ahem...I said 'experienced' users... my question still stands unanswered.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 25, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Much of what you say is correct, but not this. Golf, baseball and softball are three examples of sports that I shoot where I wouldn't mind having more fps and, sorry, but 4K frame grabs aren't going to do it. Any sport where a small ball is being hit by something big (like a bat, club or racket) can benefit from every possible frame per second. The problem with a frame grab is that you don't have the extra pixels you need for cropping and because you are often distance limited when shooting some sports, the ability to crop the image is critical. Not to mention that framing is often imperfect when shooting sports, so cropping is almost always needed.



The applications to which you refer are not among the "rare use cases" to which I was referring.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 25, 2019)

slclick said:


> Ahem...I said 'experienced' users... my question still stands unanswered.



... and I was agreeing with the second half of your comment... (not trying to answer the question in the first half - I don't know every single 1D X Mark II user to know how many of them have complained about not having enough FPS.)


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## slclick (Feb 25, 2019)

Well you used far too many words to say 'yes'. Then you go and use my ellipses....


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## HarryFilm (Feb 25, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> At the risk of agreeing with Harry......
> 
> Bigfoot! Nessie! UFOs! The only pictures are low resolution and badly blurred, yet there are people who pay plenty for them and they always get featured prominently in the tabloids..... 1DX2 level AF systems are not needed there



---

Since I am pretty much right by BigFoot Central (aka Sasquatch Land!) in Southwestern British Columbia and Northern Washington State, I've been TRYING FOR YEARS to get a CRYSTAL CLEAR HIGH RESOLUTION STILL PHOTO and VIDEO (even going as far as bringing along multiple Canon C700 GS cameras!) of said Sasquatch and/or UFO and.or Alien Entity! NOTHING! ZERO! I have NEVER seen or shot anything YET! Carl Sagan once said "Absence of Evidence is NOT necessarily Evidence of Absence", so I'm still OPEN to the ideas of Sasquatch, UFO's and Aliens...BUT.... I haven't seen anything yet OTHER THAN as BLURFOS (i.e. Blurry UFO's), Fluff-Squatch (aka Fluffy Blob of Fur in Photo) and ET-Squints (i.e. ET's needing Squinting into inky blotch on photo).

Again, that Fisher Price plastic toy camera shooting 640 by 480 15 fps MAY YET come in handy to get that MILLION DOLLAR STILL PHOTO OR VIDEO! Key your toy camera in your pocket ready for action! It may YET buy you a new house!
.
.


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## Talys (Feb 25, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> Again, that Fisher Price plastic toy camera shooting 640 by 480 15 fps MAY YET come in handy to get that MILLION DOLLAR STILL PHOTO OR VIDEO! Key your toy camera in your pocket ready for action! It may YET buy you a new house!
> .
> .


Dumb question. Why not just keep the smartphone in the pocket?


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## Michael Clark (Feb 25, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Much of what you say is correct, but not this. Golf, baseball and softball are three examples of sports that I shoot where I wouldn't mind having more fps and, sorry, but 4K frame grabs aren't going to do it. Any sport where a small ball is being hit by something big (like a bat, club or racket) can benefit from every possible frame per second. The problem with a frame grab is that you don't have the extra pixels you need for cropping and because you are often distance limited when shooting some sports, the ability to crop the image is critical. Not to mention that framing is often imperfect when shooting sports, so cropping is almost always needed.



But since you raised the issue: At what resolution are your images most often published? What is the minimum resolution required by those who buy them? Are they paying enough these days to justify the cost of a new set of cameras and long telephoto lenses for a few more fps? Or are you working in academia shooting college sports in the last bastion of the staff photographer with a near unlimited gear budget provided by Uncle Sam's near-limitless student loan guarantees? Just wait until some administrator gets the bright idea to hire out-of-work former PJ's as part-time adjuncts to teach the 'photography/new media journalism/whatever they're calling it these days' classes and let the students pay the school to do all of the shooting. I've seen it happen in more than one place.

Furthermore, 40 years ago 2.5 fps was "blazingly" fast, and you needed fresh batteries in your motor drive and reasonably warm temps (not too hot, not too cold) to get that. Guys still managed to get bat on ball and racquet on ball and golf club on ball on the tee shots because they developed the needed sense of timing. That's something that has been lost in the 12/14/16/20 fps machine-gunning era.


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## dtaylor (Feb 25, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Both your 5D Mark IV and the 1D X Mark II are capable of using Canon's EOS iTR tracking that is very similar to what Nikon's intelligent tracking does. Distance information from the PDAF sensor is combined with color information from the RGB+IR metering sensor to provide subject tracking. A lot of Canon shooters are put off by iTR because it requires the AF point selection mode to be set to 'Auto". What they don't realize is that it still allows them to choose a specific AF point for the initial subject acquisition. If Canon had an "iTR" AF point selection mode that was separate from "Auto", a lot more 1D X and 1D X Mark II users would probably try it.



My issue with iTR is that it's not "sticky" enough even with all the parameters set to emphasize sticking to the acquired subject. It seems like Nikon's latest iteration sticks better. Given the high-pixel-count metering sensors used in the latest bodies I'm guessing this would require nothing more than a firmware update from Canon. At airshows I bounce back and forth between single point and iTR and it definitely feels like Canon's algorithm just needs to be more stubborn, i.e. give more weight to the color data coming off the metering sensor.

Side note: plenty of people have bought the 1DX II for video. Judging from YouTube videos and commentary the 1DC and 1DX II have a bit of a cult following among cinematographers.


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## dtaylor (Feb 25, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Much of what you say is correct, but not this. Golf, baseball and softball are three examples of sports that I shoot where I wouldn't mind having more fps and, sorry, but 4K frame grabs aren't going to do it. Any sport where a small ball is being hit by something big (like a bat, club or racket) can benefit from every possible frame per second.



For capturing the point of contact? That raises the question: what fps would be needed to reliably capture the frame you want assuming 'spray and pray'? I suspect you would be in high video frame rates.

Also: how successful are photographers at capturing that moment without high fps? If you followed a golfer and practiced for a while would you eventually be able to predict when to press the shutter based on his swing to nail the moment you want? (It sounds impossible but I've shocked myself before in other fast moving scenarios. Jumping to baseball, if a batter can make contact with a fast pitch then a photographer should be able to 'make contact' with a shutter button. It's a question of how much practice is required.)


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## dtaylor (Feb 25, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Furthermore, 40 years ago 2.5 fps was "blazingly" fast, and you needed fresh batteries in your motor drive and reasonably warm temps (not too hot, not too cold) to get that. Guys still managed to get bat on ball and racquet on ball and golf club on ball on the tee shots because they developed the needed sense of timing. That's something that has been lost in the 12/14/16/20 fps machine-gunning era.



For years I struggled to capture crossovers at airshows. (Example: two Thunderbirds from opposing directions pass by each other.) More fps didn't help at all. The first show with the 5Ds I zoomed out just a little bit knowing I had ample ability to crop in post, and practiced on a few solo planes as they went by (trying to capture them center frame based on their entry into the OVF). Zooming out gave me just a little bit more lead time. 

When the first crossover occurred I nailed it. I didn't need more fps. I just needed one well timed frame.


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## dtaylor (Feb 25, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> Since I am pretty much right by BigFoot Central (aka Sasquatch Land!) in Southwestern British Columbia and Northern Washington State, I've been TRYING FOR YEARS to get a CRYSTAL CLEAR HIGH RESOLUTION STILL PHOTO and VIDEO (even going as far as bringing along multiple Canon C700 GS cameras!) of said Sasquatch and/or UFO and.or Alien Entity! NOTHING! ZERO! I have NEVER seen or shot anything YET! Carl Sagan once said "Absence of Evidence is NOT necessarily Evidence of Absence", so I'm still OPEN to the ideas of Sasquatch, UFO's and Aliens...BUT.... I haven't seen anything yet OTHER THAN as BLURFOS (i.e. Blurry UFO's), Fluff-Squatch (aka Fluffy Blob of Fur in Photo) and ET-Squints (i.e. ET's needing Squinting into inky blotch on photo).



Harry...  The aliens disable advanced cameras with EMP weapons that they shared with Sasquatch. Your only hope is to use primitive technology. 1980s style camcorder or 8mm film.


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## hollybush (Feb 25, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> A lot of Canon shooters are put off by iTR because it requires the AF point selection mode to be set to 'Auto". What they don't realize is that it still allows them to choose a specific AF point for the initial subject acquisition. If Canon had an "iTR" AF point selection mode that was separate from "Auto", a lot more 1D X and 1D X Mark II users would probably try it.



It's hidden as a custom function (something like "select initial AF point") instead of being another AF mode on the same level as "all points", "spot" etc. I completely missed it when reading the 1Dx Mk II manual and had to be told of its existence. So I suspect you're right and many others missed it too.

It was actually a feature I decided was missing from my 1D Mk III, without knowing what it was called, for bird photography.


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## Del Paso (Feb 25, 2019)

Larsskv said:


> And looking through an EVF in strong lighting conditions is really unpleasant compared to an OVF. I own the EOS R, and I think it is very good in most ways, but I don’t like using it in strong light. Highlights and shadows does not look natural, and using an EVF in such conditions takes the joy out of photography. I hope the OVF stays for a long time, AND I hope newer DSLRs comes with exchangeable matte screens, such as the 1D series, the 6D, 5D classic and 5DII.


Couldn't agree more, especially as to interchangeable matte screens (EOS 1 not ideal for me, macro photography!).
But the EOS R has an edge when using vintage lenses for macro, DSLR finders getting quite dark when closing the diaphragm. Sometimes, at F.16, I no longer see the flower...That's why I also bought the EOS R, even though I sold it in order to wait for the Hi-resolution EOS R. The "R" is a very fine little camera, but I still prefer my 5 D III in most conditions...


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## Del Paso (Feb 25, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> The 1D X has never been mistaken for a video camera. It's built for one thing: speed for stills. You might notice that there has not been a 1D C Mark II version of the 1D X Mark II.
> 
> If Canon ever does that in a stills camera (they won't because they sell video cameras that do all of that), it would be in a 5-series type of body, not a 1-series.
> 
> ...


Excellent and intelligent statements!


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## Michael Clark (Feb 25, 2019)

hollybush said:


> It's hidden as a custom function (something like "select initial AF point") instead of being another AF mode on the same level as "all points", "spot" etc. I completely missed it when reading the 1Dx Mk II manual and had to be told of its existence. So I suspect you're right and many others missed it too.
> 
> It was actually a feature I decided was missing from my 1D Mk III, without knowing what it was called, for bird photography.



I'm pretty sure the 1D X was the first one with iTR, which includes a color RGB+IR metering sensor and a dedicated processor for AF/metering. The 1D Mark III did not have a color light meter. The menu option you are recalling is for selecting the "Home Position" AF point, but it's not iTR.


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## Larsskv (Feb 25, 2019)

Del Paso said:


> Couldn't agree more, especially as to interchangeable matte screens (EOS 1 not ideal for me, macro photography!).
> But the EOS R has an edge when using vintage lenses for macro, DSLR finders getting quite dark when closing the diaphragm. Sometimes, at F.16, I no longer see the flower...That's why I also bought the EOS R, even though I sold it in order to wait for the Hi-resolution EOS R. The "R" is a very fine little camera, but I still prefer my 5 D III in most conditions...



I wish the debates were more nuanced in here, because EVFs are better in some conditions, OVFs in others. Too many in here (not you) has a black or white view on this topic.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 25, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> My issue with iTR is that it's not "sticky" enough even with all the parameters set to emphasize sticking to the acquired subject. It seems like Nikon's latest iteration sticks better. Given the high-pixel-count metering sensors used in the latest bodies I'm guessing this would require nothing more than a firmware update from Canon. At airshows I bounce back and forth between single point and iTR and it definitely feels like Canon's algorithm just needs to be more stubborn, i.e. give more weight to the color data coming off the metering sensor.
> 
> Side note: plenty of people have bought the 1DX II for video. Judging from YouTube videos and commentary the 1DC and 1DX II have a bit of a cult following among cinematographers.



OK. "No one except cultists buy a 1D X for video."

How's that? Everything has a few cultists somewhere.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 25, 2019)

privatebydesign said:
13. USB-C


Michael Clark said:


> Who needs USB-C when the current and previous versions already have gigabit ethernet ports?



Me. USB-C would give the possibility to shoot tethered and powered for when I spend days with the camera and a laptop on a set for product photography. 

The Ethernet port I use for plugging into a venue for a remote and gives network access, USB-C doesn’t, I can then connect to and control the camera from my phone or iPad. 

Ethernet allows very long cables, I have a 150’ one, my longest USB-C cable is 60”, but the Ethernet will never be able to supply enough power and USB-C will never have the range.

USB-C is 10 times faster than the 1DX MkII’s Ethernet port.

They have very different functionalities and uses, I currently use TetherTools cables and hard wired Ethernet and the WFT-E8 for different purposes at different times.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 25, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> My issue with iTR is that it's not "sticky" enough even with all the parameters set to emphasize sticking to the acquired subject. It seems like Nikon's latest iteration sticks better. Given the high-pixel-count metering sensors used in the latest bodies I'm guessing this would require nothing more than a firmware update from Canon. At airshows I bounce back and forth between single point and iTR and it definitely feels like Canon's algorithm just needs to be more stubborn, i.e. give more weight to the color data coming off the metering sensor.
> 
> Side note: plenty of people have bought the 1DX II for video. Judging from YouTube videos and commentary the 1DC and 1DX II have a bit of a cult following among cinematographers.



You can alter the "stickiness" by adjusting the parameters under the AF use cases: tracking sensitivity, Accel./Decel. tracking, and AF pt auto switching. Also, be aware that a '2' setting for 'AF pt auto switching' under 'case 6' (For subjects that change speed and move erratically) will switch points faster than a '2' setting under case 1 (Versatile multipurpose setting).


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## Pape (Feb 25, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> Since I am pretty much right by BigFoot Central (aka Sasquatch Land!) in Southwestern British Columbia and Northern Washington State, I've been TRYING FOR YEARS to get a CRYSTAL CLEAR HIGH RESOLUTION STILL PHOTO and VIDEO (even going as far as bringing along multiple Canon C700 GS cameras!) of said Sasquatch and/or UFO and.or Alien Entity! NOTHING! ZERO! I have NEVER seen or shot anything YET! Carl Sagan once said "Absence of Evidence is NOT necessarily Evidence of Absence", so I'm still OPEN to the ideas of Sasquatch, UFO's and Aliens...BUT.... I haven't seen anything yet OTHER THAN as BLURFOS (i.e. Blurry UFO's), Fluff-Squatch (aka Fluffy Blob of Fur in Photo) and ET-Squints (i.e. ET's needing Squinting into inky blotch on photo).
> 
> ...


problem with saquatch and ufo photographing is those thingies can see to future. All they need do to avoid getting photographed is choosing path what doesnt lead to getting photographed. Some lucky peoples may get photoes from drunken sasquatch but so rare thing ,its usually amateur photographer with crappy equipemnts.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 25, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 13. USB-C
> 
> 
> ...



The 1D X and 1D X Mark II RJ-45 jacks are capable of gigabit ethernet. If you're only getting 1/10 the speed of USB-C with the ethernet connection, it's because the network you're connecting to is limited to 10/100 speeds. 

I hear you on the powered tethering. I hadn't considered that since generic power adapters/couplers are pretty cheap for the older LP-E4 powered 1-series and LP-E6 powered cameras. Apparently that isn't the case for the LP-E17. As long as Canon is getting enough folks to pay $220 for the coupler and $375 for the AC-E19 they aren't going to give anyone the ability to power via USB-C!


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## privatebydesign (Feb 25, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> You can alter the "stickiness" by adjusting the parameters under the AF use cases: tracking sensitivity, Accel./Decel. tracking, and AF pt auto switching. Also, be aware that a '2' setting for 'AF pt auto switching' under 'case 6' (For subjects that change speed and move erratically) will switch points faster than a '2' setting under case 1 (Versatile multipurpose setting).


Are you sure? Can you point to a white paper to explain that because I don’t use cases, I just adjust the three parameters on an ad hoc basis under the impression that the numbers were the numbers. What makes you say the same numbers are different values in different cases.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 25, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Are you sure? Can you point to a white paper to explain that because I don’t use cases, I just adjust the three parameters on an ad hoc basis under the impression that the numbers were the numbers. What makes you say the same numbers are different values in different cases.



Because they are. Just like sharpening or contrast or other parameters are different for different picture styles. 

The reference is the "EOS 1D X Mark II AF Setting Guidebook"


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## privatebydesign (Feb 25, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> The 1D X and 1D X Mark II RJ-45 jacks are capable of gigabit ethernet. If you're only getting 1/10 the speed of USB-C with the ethernet connection, it's because the network you're connecting to is limited to 10/100 speeds.
> 
> I hear you on the powered tethering. I hadn't considered that since generic power adapters/couplers are pretty cheap for the older LP-E4 powered 1-series and LP-E6 powered cameras. Apparently that isn't the case for the LP-E17. As long as Canon is getting enough folks to pay $220 for the coupler and $375 for the AC-E19 they aren't going to give anyone the ability to power via USB-C!


USB-C is max 10Gbps, the 1DX MkII RJ45 is 10/100/1000Mbps, or max 1Gbps.

Of course they could put a 10Gbps RJ45/8P8C socket in the 1DX MkIII, but that still wouldn’t solve the power problem. Talking about power, I kept the AC adapters that came with the 1Ds MkIII’s I owned so run a 1DX MkII Because they don’t come in the box now.


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## padam (Feb 25, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> The 1D X has never been mistaken for a video camera. It's built for one thing: speed for stills. You might notice that there has not been a 1D C Mark II version of the 1D X Mark II.
> 
> No one buys a 1D X as a video camera. Very few even bought the 1D C as a video camera. You might notice that there has not been a 1D C Mark II version of the 1D X Mark II.


Compared to the 1DC way more people bought (and still buying) the 1DX II specifically for video, because it was cheaper and better featured (and of course it is device that also takes stills), whether you like that or not.
It's really not major upgrade for stills over the 1DX, but it is a huge improvement for video. It has the best frame rates and rolling shutter performance from any of Canon's stills cameras with the best video AF.

And if there is no Canon MILC with the same video specs (it is unclear at this point if there is going to be, it could endanger their C-Line) they will continue to buy it. For video.

The reason why there is no 1DC II is because apart from the C-Log Profile everything is already in there in the 1DX II, so it makes no sense to release such a camera, this is probably a concept that they've already dropped for good with the 1DC. They could have given C-Log for a small fee, or skip that for marketing reasons, which is what they did, they might finally offer that in the Mark III but with other possible limitations, like a bigger crop factor.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 25, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> USB-C is max 10Gbps, the 1DX MkII RJ45 is 10/100/1000Mbps, or max 1Gbps.
> 
> Of course they could put a 10Gbps RJ45/8P8C socket in the 1DX MkIII, but that still wouldn’t solve the power problem. Talking about power, I kept the AC adapters that came with the 1Ds MkIII’s I owned so run a 1DX MkII Because they don’t come in the box now.



Wow. I've not used anything with 10Gbps USB-C. I thought it maxed out at 1 Gbps. That's fast!

Do the LP-E4 power couplers run the 1D X Mark II? I assumed Canon had locked them out via firmware. That's something to keep in mind.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 25, 2019)

padam said:


> Compared to the 1DC way more people bought (and still buying) the 1DX II specifically for video, because it was cheaper and better featured (and of course it is device that also takes stills), whether you like that or not.
> It's really not major upgrade for stills over the 1DX, but it is a huge improvement for video. It has the best frame rates and rolling shutter performance from any of Canon's stills cameras with the best video AF.
> 
> And if there is no Canon MILC with the same video specs (it is unclear at this point if there is going to be, it could endanger their C-Line) they will continue to buy it. For video.
> ...



OK. OK. OK. There are people who buy the 1D X Mark II to use primarily as a video camera. I hear you. I just haven't run into any of them.

Having said that, I'm sure Canon would prefer one buy a 1D X (Mark whatever) for stills _and _a C whatever for video. That's what seems to drive a lot of their decisions about what they do and don't include in specific models: a way to dangle that last carrot to get you to buy both.


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## dtaylor (Feb 25, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> OK. "No one except cultists buy a 1D X for video."
> 
> How's that? Everything has a few cultists somewhere.



Neither of us is in a position to know how many 1DX II bodies Canon has sold for video. Suffice it to say I've been surprised at how often it has turned up.



Michael Clark said:


> You can alter the "stickiness" by adjusting the parameters under the AF use cases: tracking sensitivity, Accel./Decel. tracking, and AF pt auto switching. Also, be aware that a '2' setting for 'AF pt auto switching' under 'case 6' (For subjects that change speed and move erratically) will switch points faster than a '2' setting under case 1 (Versatile multipurpose setting).



I explicitly said that I didn't find it to be sticky enough with all parameters maxed for 'stickiness.' It will drift or change in situations where it really should not.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 25, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Wow. I've not used anything with 10Gbps USB-C. I thought it maxed out at 1 Gbps. That's fast!
> 
> Do the LP-E4 power couplers run the 1D X Mark II? That's something to keep in mind.


Yes the coupler and power brick that came with the 1DS MkIII’s run the 1DX MkII’s fine, there are a couple of caveats as they don’t deliver the full power the newer versions do, but as you say, they are a fraction the price. 

You don’t get 14fps and one or two other things but I can’t remember what, functionally I haven’t noticed an issue but I use them for single shot product work mostly. They do allow Live View etc.


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## koenkooi (Feb 25, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> USB-C is max 10Gbps, the 1DX MkII RJ45 is 10/100/1000Mbps, or max 1Gbps.
> [..]



To be a bit pedantic: USB-C is a form factor, not a protocol. The protocol speeds are like this:

USB 3.1 gen 1 (rebranded USB 3.0) allows for 5gbps over a single lane
USB 3.1 gen 2 allows for 10gbps over a single lane
USB 3.2 gen 2x2 allows for an extra lane, so 2x 10gbps or 2x 5gbps.
Thunderbolt 3 allows for 40gbps over an USB-C cable
The USB spec tends to rebrand N-1 as N in some form e.g. USB2 'full speed' is actually USB1 speed and the 3.1gen1 thing above, so this list will probably be wrong in the future


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## privatebydesign (Feb 25, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> To be a bit pedantic: USB-C is a form factor, not a protocol. The protocol speeds are like this:
> 
> USB 3.1 gen 1 (rebranded USB 3.0) allows for 5gbps over a single lane
> USB 3.1 gen 2 allows for 10gbps over a single lane
> ...


Sorry, I should have said USB-C/USB 3.1 gen 2. 

However Thunderbolt 3 does not allow for 40Gbps over a USB-C cable, they might look the same (but for the lightening bolt and the 3 on them) but they don’t perform the same. If you want Thunderbolt 3 speeds you have to use Thunderbolt 3 cables.


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## scyrene (Feb 25, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> EVFs are also next to worthless in astro conditions. I can see and manually focus stars and even the Milky Way through a good OVF. I have yet to get anything but static in LiveView or in an EVF under the same conditions. Not to mention that an EVF destroys your night vision in one eye. I'll grant that when I'm shooting astro I'm generally reviewing the shot and thereby wrecking my night vision any way, but I could leave my night vision untouched with an OVF. No option to with mirrorless.



Fwiw when I've done astrophotography, I've focused in Live View exclusively, although it only works on brighter stars zoomed in at 10x.


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## scyrene (Feb 25, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> And just how do you know Canon could do that and still have a "huge" profit margin? Fantasy much?



Normally what people mean when they say that is, 'I don't want to pay the going rate'.


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## scyrene (Feb 25, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> --
> 
> I kinda beg to differ on that, as our parent company uses the Canon 1Dx Mk2 AS a video camera system for various internal uses AND they bought 32 of them! Yes they bought the 1Dc too but they only bought four of them but once the 1Dx2 came out, they right away got 32 of them too. And when the DCI 4K C700 Global Shutter Cinema Camera came out, they bought 32 of them! AND 32 of the Sony Venice 6K. It depends upon the company, You can use ANY type of camera system for whatever video or still photo use you want. You just have to have the money to buy them. (the parent company can afford it! They're BIG!) Again imagining the amount that was spend to by 64 Fujinon Cinema Zoom lenses! THAT was an incredible bill. Good thing IT WASN'T MY MONEY!
> .
> .



I love how you think fictional examples from a fictitious company are evidence as counterexamples. No, wait, I mean I hate it.


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## unfocused (Feb 25, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> ...Or are you working in academia shooting college sports in the last bastion of the staff photographer with a near unlimited gear budget provided by Uncle Sam's near-limitless student loan guarantees? Just wait until some administrator gets the bright idea to hire out-of-work former PJ's as part-time adjuncts to teach the 'photography/new media journalism/whatever they're calling it these days' classes and let the students pay the school to do all of the shooting. I've seen it happen in more than one place...



I have no idea what your comments have to do with the discussion. You would have been better off to just be quiet after your first response. But, since you ask. I do work for a small, underfunded, private college that serves mostly minority students. There is no budget for photo equipment and nothing is provided by my employer. As for the future viability, I really don't care. I came out of retirement to take this job because I believe in the mission of the school to serve students, mostly students of color, who are not being served by either public universities or the shrinking class of elite private colleges that skim off the top students and leave no option for the great majority of students. It would please me no end if the school were to begin offering classes in photography and allow the students to take over. However, I could not in good conscience recommend that because I don't believe in training students for jobs that do not exist, nor do I see the budget available to provide the necessary equipment to support such a course.


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## makera (Feb 25, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> The AF **and** MF aids are so good I think the R utterly blows away all the SLRs, even the next SLR whatever it is. The R can focus **PERFECTLY** while the SLR's simply can't. .


Because of the poor autofocus function, I did not buy the R. In the harsh photo everyday, I have to be able to focus and trigger very quickly with one hand. A 1DX II is the R superior in all respects.


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## Sharlin (Feb 25, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> I'd agree in terms of native mount sport lenses, but the camera architecture's basically proven I think. Unless I'm overlooking something, any sensor in the DSLRs you can even more easily put in an R-type body. The main shortcomings of the R, like dual memories or doubling battery, are trivial to implement. Ditto the few weird things in the UI. (Example, in Fv mode you can pick AUTO off the backscreen GUI but not on the jog wheels.)
> 
> Should they have the same sensor available for a pro R as they do for the 1DX II, I'd prefer to shoot the Olympics with the pro R and adapters. Heck, even the current R probably cannot be matched for AF and MF by the 1DX II.



You might be overlooking something...



SwissFrank said:


> I sold my EOS-1Ds MkIII, EF 24-105/4LIS, EF 50/1.2L, and EOS M+kit zoom, for the R+RF24-105/4LIS. The AF **and** MF aids are so good I think the R utterly blows away all the SLRs, even the next SLR whatever it is. The R can focus **PERFECTLY** while the SLR's simply can't. And because the SLR's can't, they can't even make use of 30MP much less 50+. Maybe on tripod at f/8 but handheld? Wide-open? Fast action? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha forget it..



As has been said repeatedly, Canon has not demonstrated that they can achieve anything close to a 1D level burst speed with full servo Dual Pixel AF. Good luck selling the R's 5.5fps (3fps in focus priority) burst mode to an Olympic shooter. Even the original 1D was faster than that. Or, in your own words, "Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha forget it."


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## Architect1776 (Feb 25, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> With the EF rollout in 1987, the EOS-1 was like their 4th or 5th body. They have to build a reasonable number of lenses before making it available, and ten is about what they had when the EOS-1 came out. They'll start with the trinity of zooms, three alternative standard lenses (the f/2, the f/4, and the f/1.2 prime), and a peppering of other lenses on the side. That's enough to allow a pro to start working.
> 
> I had every EOS-1 from 1995 to 2008, and just now switching to the RF I just don't see what specifically about it wouldn't be just as good with a 50MP or 70MP sensor, two memories, double-size battery, and a vertical grip. Technologically they're ready for it. They just want acceptance to build a bit and for the lenses to be there when they actually release it.



I have said as you have regarding introduction of the pro bodies in the past especially the first EOS cameras were not. They have the technology but want to test certain parameters etc. before introducing the pro model. I am totally on board with this and applaud canon's conservatism vs others rushing flawed junk out just to be first. The whole EOS concept was "Late" to the dance but was right the first time rater than going through 8 different iterations to try to get it right as others did before they finally caught up with how Canon did it from the start.


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## Architect1776 (Feb 25, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> And just how do you know Canon could do that and still have a "huge" profit margin? Fantasy much?



They are good at it. That's how.
Look at the RP.


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## Architect1776 (Feb 25, 2019)

Talys said:


> I don't think so. If 1DX were $3000, Canon would not sell millions of them, because it isn't a great camera for a lot if casual and enthusiast photographers. It is too heavy and large for a lot of people, a lot of folks don't care about a rotatable/gripped body, and in the midrange, megapixels sell cameras, especially where a user wants to be able to crop more deeply (possibly because they don't want to swap lenses or don't own a longer lens).
> 
> And anyways, I don't see even the perfect full frame ILC selling millions of units af $3k - that is just too much money for a lot of people.



The thought is not the 1D series.
It is the R (1) series.


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## padam (Feb 25, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> OK. OK. OK. There are people who buy the 1D X Mark II to use primarily as a video camera. I hear you. I just haven't run into any of them.
> 
> Having said that, I'm sure Canon would prefer one buy a 1D X (Mark whatever) for stills _and _a C whatever for video. That's what seems to drive a lot of their decisions about what they do and don't include in specific models: a way to dangle that last carrot to get you to buy both.


Maybe you haven't run into this post yet - or YT for that matter 
https://www.canonrumors.com/all-of-...ies-at-the-oscars-were-shot-on-canon-cameras/


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## Pape (Feb 25, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> Harry...  The aliens disable advanced cameras with EMP weapons that they shared with Sasquatch. Your only hope is to use primitive technology. 1980s style camcorder or 8mm film.


dunno got this with 300d today


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## Ozarker (Feb 25, 2019)

scyrene said:


> Normally what people mean when they say that is, 'I don't want to pay the going rate'.


Same reason Panera Bread's "pay whatever you want" business model failed at those particular stores.  You are 100% correct.


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## HarryFilm (Feb 25, 2019)

Talys said:


> Dumb question. Why not just keep the smartphone in the pocket?



---

Interestingly, those child's plasticky Fisher Price and VTech still and video cameras are actually TOUGH AS NAILS! They can take a beating that leaves even the Canon 1Dx Mk2 in the dust!

Those Fisher Price and Vtech cameras may be only 640 by 480 or 1280x720 pixel at 15 fps, but they can definitely take the worst from even the most tantrum-beast of a child AND they tend to have large easy-to-use buttons, so if it can take such a pounding, it might be a good idea to have one around. My smartphone is far too expensive and delicate to take into the vast wilderness and wet weather of the Pacific Northwest, but those rather rugged Fisher Price / VTech toys cameras were only $49 so you can't beat the price!

Again, they MIGHT buy you a new house IF you finally take that SHARP and CLEAR photo or video of some Sasquatch, UFO and/or Alien!
.


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## Architect1776 (Feb 25, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> I'm sorry but I disagree. I think on the R the technology is already 100% mature. I just think their problem is timing:
> 
> What if they sold the EOS-1 model now? Little uptake because 1) few lenses and 2) people are just conservative and institutions often plan these purchases a year or so ahead of time. So no or low sales.
> 
> ...



You could be right.
We shall see.
But I do believe they are still working things out as they did with the 650 and 620 models.


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## HarryFilm (Feb 25, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> Harry...  The aliens disable advanced cameras with EMP weapons that they shared with Sasquatch. Your only hope is to use primitive technology. 1980s style camcorder or 8mm film.



---

My dad has an old Bolex-style film camera AND some still usable Regular-8 and Super-8 film...I may have to give those a whirl. We'll See! I more worried if Sasquatch is actually a MACHINE -- an autonomous furry Terminator robots sent by the Alien to rip our arms and heads off if we get too close! You can watch all the Youtube "National Parks 411" reports about people MYSTERIOUSLY disappearing from U.S. and Canadian wilderness areas and sometimes being found completely dismembered as if ripped apart by a POWERFUL and GIANT bi-pedal or other monsterous being!

There's LOTS of stories out there! Take a Look on Youtube and various websites!
.


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## HarryFilm (Feb 25, 2019)

Pape said:


> problem with saquatch and ufo photographing is those thingies can see to future. All they need do to avoid getting photographed is choosing path what doesnt lead to getting photographed. Some lucky peoples may get photoes from drunken sasquatch but so rare thing ,its usually amateur photographer with crappy equipemnts.



===

Haven't you watched Finding Bigfoot or those crazy Mountain Men BigFoot Hunters TV shows? They actually found some Moonshiners in the US deep south who had their local "Skunk Ape" eating all the Sourmash which is one of the byproducts of illegal Moonshine alcohol distilling! Them Sasquatches were gettin' all violent after being Drunk as a Skunk from eatin' that sourmash. They ripped apart trees, destroyed stills and even threatened the moonshiners. Not even .308 rounds stopped them 'Squatches! So YUP! 'Squatches get drunk too!
.
Don't get'em mad though, cuz they REALLY WILL rip yer arms and head off yer body! AND THEY is strong enough to do it it with their bare hands!
.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 25, 2019)

padam said:


> Maybe you haven't run into this post yet - or YT for that matter
> https://www.canonrumors.com/all-of-...ies-at-the-oscars-were-shot-on-canon-cameras/



So two of the five used only 5D variants. The other three all used C300 variants. One of those three also used a 1D X Mark II, but the C300 Mark II is listed first, so probably the primary camera. Not exactly an "overwhelming" argument that "all the cinematographers" buy the 1D X variants for video. I don't spend much time on YouTube. I spend more time looking at still images at Magnum, LensCulture, etc. I'm a stills photographer.


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## dtaylor (Feb 25, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> I sold my EOS-1Ds MkIII, EF 24-105/4LIS, EF 50/1.2L, and EOS M+kit zoom, for the R+RF24-105/4LIS. The AF **and** MF aids are so good I think the R utterly blows away all the SLRs, even the next SLR whatever it is. The R can focus **PERFECTLY** while the SLR's simply can't. And because the SLR's can't, they can't even make use of 30MP much less 50+. Maybe on tripod at f/8 but handheld? Wide-open? Fast action? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha forget it.



I have no idea where you're getting this. My 5Ds focuses perfectly with a number of lenses. Hand held, wide open, fast action.


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## dtaylor (Feb 25, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> I don't know how you shoot, so I don't know how your 1DX II works under the conditions you need to shoot, but I've got a 10-frame burst of my 5-year-old son running towards me from like 7 to 1 meter, with the RF50/1.2 WIDE OPEN, and every shot is sharp enough to count his eyelashes. He's not even centered, he's all over the frames, but face-tracking followed him.



Mirrorless cameras have better AI subject acquisition and tracking. DSLRs have better _point_ acquisition and tracking. An R can face track a child wandering around the frame at 3-5 fps. A 1DX II can track a sprinter approaching the photographer at 14 fps, but you have to keep an AF point on him.


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## Pape (Feb 26, 2019)

Now i got how it goes,, 
Canon doesnt need new sensor for 1dx3 ,they got it finished already years .
26mpixel 6d2 sensor without programmed brakes and bang they got 14,5 DR canon sensor.
Why develope 2 different sensor when they can use just one and nerf it for cheaper cameras


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## Kit. (Feb 26, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> What were they working out with those models?


User interface, most probably.


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## Architect1776 (Feb 26, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> What were they working out with those models? I just read a review of them that said everything on them works fine. I don't think Canon was debugging its system. It just didn't see a point in releasing a pro body when there were only 4-5 lenses it could use, and which body would then be out of date by the time there were over a dozen. Then as now: take a year or two to build up the lens system, and let the pro market start penciling in a purchase of the forthcoming model when they see your commitment. THEN release the pro model. It worked before. I don't see why it won't keep working.



First they are not going to tell you or anyone anything.
Then why were cameras like the 650 and 620 introduced prior to the 1?
They are definitely looking at these cameras in the real world.
Why did the bar disappear from the back of the RP?
We don't know why.
Think outside the box, if you have a brand new untried product and you have a reputation for superior designed products would you not start out with features in a simpler camera and see how they work on a small scale?
I sure would. Regardless of the pixel peeper and Sony bells and whistles yet crappy UI crowd complaints.
Over decades of watching Canon they make a solid product generally. The original Canon R cameras were dogs and they learned a lot. Also the T80 was a dog but Canon saw that in lens AF motor was far superior to the little screwy thingy others went with and they then thought why not a compete electrical interface even if it pisses off some users. Their pro base was small but they knew the EOS was so superior that it would destroy Nikon in the pro market and they did. 
No they just make good solid useful tools and not cell phones with interchangeable lenses.


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## dtaylor (Feb 27, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> You only think that because you haven't used a mirrorless for a couple months.



I got my first mirrorless ILC in 2013.



> Basically, your AF is primitive, and you've taught yourself to only demand from it the few things it can actually do. So it works? No surprise, but only because you're limiting what you ask of it.



Take your R and track a sprinter at 8 fps. Ohhh...wait...well, try 5 fps with tracking priority. Oh...darn...I guess your AF is _primitive_ and _it only works because you limit what you ask of it._


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## djack41 (Feb 27, 2019)

AlanF said:


> What camera are you using to track birds in flight and what is its refresh rate?



I have been using a 1DX2 for BIF. I recently acquired a Sony A9 and have been amazed at the accuracy of the AF and ease of tracking BIF with the EV. Refresh rate is stellar. A Sony 400mm F2.8 will be my next addition.


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## Trey T (Feb 28, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Interesting, knowing how aggressively Canon has gone to RF mount.


the 1D group is different. Of every 1,000 wedding photog w/ 5D, there's only like 10 sport/wildlife photog w/ 1D. Their work demand is much different... it's precisely a career vs something like fly-by-night photography.


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## AlanF (Mar 1, 2019)

djack41 said:


> I have been using a 1DX2 for BIF. I recently acquired a Sony A9 and have been amazed at the accuracy of the AF and ease of tracking BIF with the EV. Refresh rate is stellar. A Sony 400mm F2.8 will be my next addition.



The A9 has a very good reputation for AF and refresh rate, and I would like to see a Canon rival to it.


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## makera (Mar 3, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> ??? If you didn't buy it, what makes you think it's poor?
> 
> I don't know how you shoot, so I don't know how your 1DX II works under the conditions you need to shoot, but I've got a 10-frame burst of my 5-year-old son running towards me from like 7 to 1 meter, with the RF50/1.2 WIDE OPEN, and every shot is sharp enough to count his eyelashes. He's not even centered, he's all over the frames, but face-tracking followed him. This is one-hand shooting. Select face-track with the touch bar. Center the focus point with the garbage can button. Put over his face and tell him to run to me. 10/10 perfect shots. My EOS-1Ds MkIII certainly couldn't have done that.
> 
> For manual focus, the focus-peaking or magnifier in the viewfinder are both great. Again, the 1Ds MkIII could only do mag if I didn't use the viewfinder, and it didn't have peaking.


Canon organizes presentations. And there I could test the R .
I had the idea to buy a lighter camera. But after testing, I decided to keep the 1DX II, even if it's heavier. The disadvantages of R are too big. It takes far too long to focus and take a picture. And for that you need two hands. My left hand is always on the lens. I often have groups and not just one person.
In general, taking pictures with the R felt very slow. You feel insecure, also because you can not hear the camera took a picture or not. 
So I prefer to stay with my 1DX II and see if Canon develops a better mirrorless.


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## GMCPhotographics (Mar 6, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> You only think that because you haven't used a mirrorless for a couple months.
> 
> Basically, your AF is primitive, and you've taught yourself to only demand from it the few things it can actually do. So it works? No surprise, but only because you're limiting what you ask of it.


What a load of twaddle....I regularly use a 85 f1.2 IIL and a 400mm f2.8 LIS....trust me when I say that the AF system in a 5DIII/4 or 1Dx/II far exceeds the continuous AF capability found in the Eos R or Rp...it's not even close. Sure the dual pixel AF is more accurate for static subjects...but for motion and action the current DSLR AF system blows away mirror-less's AF...no competition. Maybe for YOUR needs you are finding the Rf system's AF adequate. But it's far from a global solution or replacement. 
Honestly...this Rf will take over the world cr*p is getting juvenile.


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## Kit. (Mar 6, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> What do you think the technical hurdle could possibly be in mirrorless AF not keeping up with the SLR models?


Inferior AF sensor, compared to a dedicated one?


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## Kit. (Mar 6, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> and in what about itdo you think causes these inferior results?


Geometric constraints, computational power constraints.


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## Random Orbits (Mar 6, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> How many hours did you spend with each so far? What do you think the technical hurdle could possibly be in mirrorless AF not keeping up with the SLR models?



Increased processing power due to dual pixel AF.


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## Architect1776 (Mar 7, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> What were they working out with those models? I just read a review of them that said everything on them works fine. I don't think Canon was debugging its system. It just didn't see a point in releasing a pro body when there were only 4-5 lenses it could use, and which body would then be out of date by the time there were over a dozen. Then as now: take a year or two to build up the lens system, and let the pro market start penciling in a purchase of the forthcoming model when they see your commitment. THEN release the pro model. It worked before. I don't see why it won't keep working.



They are not going to tell you what they were looking at.
I never said debugging. They were working things out like speed of AF, tracking AF and I am sure many other things in programming.
Canon is not like Sony coming out with half baked junk needing many iterations to fix. Canon comes out with a beautifully working complete camera and system. Then as technology changes introduces new models to take advantage of that like processors etc. No they do not always lead, except for the EF system led the world for 30 years before others began to approach it.


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## GMCPhotographics (Mar 7, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> How many hours did you spend with each so far? What do you think the technical hurdle could possibly be in mirrorless AF not keeping up with the SLR models?


More than enough and also borne from observation of the hoard of wildlife and sports photographers NOT migrating to the Eos R....


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## GMCPhotographics (Mar 7, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> How many hours did you spend with each so far? What do you think the technical hurdle could possibly be in mirrorless AF not keeping up with the SLR models?


If you are concerned to my photographic credentials...go look me up. My name googles well. I've also been here a long time and I regularly post to this forums pages such as the various lens and camera pages here with portfolio imagery. Where as...you seem to have arrived here late December 2018...and have posted only dialogue. You claim to have a 600mm f4, a very serious piece of kit...so let s see some pictures. Pop them in 600mm f4 LIS page.


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## 3kramd5 (Mar 7, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> View attachment 183390



Sweet


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## Don Haines (Mar 7, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> No-one's going to take your self-appraisal for something like that. Why don't you just tell us the weeks' experience you've had learning it, and we'll decide whether it's enough or not.
> 
> 
> 
> How does mere observation magically inform you that AF is the issue, not, say, battery life, memory slots, megapixels, a lack of budget to roll over kit, or lack of information (or indeed, disinformation) about the new system?


So you have a group of working photographers with good quality gear... Canon starts down the mirrorless path with a low end FF mirrorless and an introductory model. Neither of these units are a significant improvement (and in many ways a downgrade) from the 5D series cameras that most working pros tend towards. The same holds true for the fanatical birders....

Why would these people consider changing systems at this point? Doesn't it make more sense to wait until some higher end mirrorless come out, and to wait for the current gear to get aged out?


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## Cyborx (Mar 10, 2019)

Yesterday I was at a conference, there were two photographers, one of them sold his Canon gear and was now working with Sony Alpha. The other one was using the 1Dx mark II. Damn, that noisy shutter was disturbing .. and man what a relief to be able to work in complete silence.

To me it is clear that the 'noisy times' are over. Maybe at a football field people don't mind you firing like a machinegun, but EVERYWERE ELSE those times are over. My fellow photographers are not happy with Canon (unsharp, fuzzyness, front/backfocus etc). Some lenses are sharp, some others arent, it sometimes seems a matter of luck (I use microadjust and CPS service, don't worry) and on top of that the silent mode makes them switching to Sony one after the other. Sharper, Silent, and cheaper! It just does not feel good anymore to spend money on gear you simply cannot trust. So Canon needs to step up and make sure every single camera and every single lens is spot on crispy sharp without any (AF) issues.

So to wrap up: If Canon decides to make the 1Dx III as expensive as their predecessors and make a noisy shutter again, they will sell a few to sports photographers, but even they are switching to eye-focus camera's such as Sony. And NO I AM NOT SONY related, I am just a Canon user myself.

So PLEASE CANON, make that camera affordable and silent!
And built in WIFI please or this thing will absolutely not sell.
Merci!


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## QuisUtDeus (Mar 11, 2019)

Pape said:


> problem with saquatch and ufo photographing is those thingies can see to future. All they need do to avoid getting photographed is choosing path what doesnt lead to getting photographed. Some lucky peoples may get photoes from drunken sasquatch but so rare thing ,its usually amateur photographer with crappy equipemnts.



This also means that carrying around a big fancy camera makes you UFO-abduction-proof. Win!


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## 3kramd5 (Mar 11, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> The EOS R is utterly silent (except for aperture, if you're not shooting wide-open) in silent mode.
> 
> The EOS R also has Bluetooth and Wifi. You can see the liveview on your smartphone or PC, adjust focus point, change camera settings and shoot. Then, you can have the camera automatically upload the resulting images.
> 
> I'm not saying the R is pro-use. Ergonomics are poor due to the smaller body. Battery life is 1/3 what it needs to be and it needs another memory slot. But, I'd expect doodads like Wifi and Bluetooth that are in the mid-level MILFF will surely be in the high-end SLR. Conversely the next sensor will surely be shared between the SLR and the MILFF, so if the SLR is too loud, the pro R will be what you want.


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## Michael Clark (Mar 11, 2019)

QuisUtDeus said:


> This also means that carrying around a big fancy camera makes you UFO-abduction-proof. Win!



Either that, or it means they are ruthlessly efficient at "erasing" anyone who gets near them with one...


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## makera (Mar 13, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> I cannot imagine that a presentation is going to be long enough to figure out how to use the camera.
> 
> It certainly focuses extremely quickly once you learn how it works.
> 
> ...


Yes, certainly a longer test is better. I had the camera for an hour to test in the hand and have only these impressions. I did not understand how to set the focus point quickly with just the right hand and without putting the camera off the eye. The Canon presenter had no idea.
With a 1DX II one is very spoiled (I only miss a quieter mode) and the R did not feel like an improvement. I'm waiting for an R pro.


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