# anyone had someone over their shoulder on a job?



## risc32 (Feb 7, 2013)

At nearly every wedding i've done lately i've had a friend, or aunt or whomever of the bride/groom basically acting as the lead photographer. Perhaps it's just by shear chance but they are always ladies. They also are either part time wedding photographers, or they mostly do portrait work, or they work with kids. It drives me completely insane. I'll be taking formal shots and half of the people will be looking at me and the others will be looking at the lady with the big nikon. When I go to weddings i'm not working I don't even bring my camera. And the few times I do, i sure as hell don't go fooling around during the formals, and I certainly don't grab the bride/groom and whisk them out the the reception for a bunch of posing shots. 
this happens to me all the time. I know what i'd like to say to the interloper, but i don't think it would go over very well. Anyone else exp this behavior?


----------



## RS2021 (Feb 7, 2013)

Just produce a professional product at the end that the big lens amateur can never match...that will be your revenge. 
If you cannot beat her, then you deserve a second fiddle...or in that case a first fiddle


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Feb 7, 2013)

I get this a lot, but from a different angle, I do video, and the stills guys want to take over.
We have a pool of staff photographers who I'm on good terms with and we usually just decide who is going first and thats that, no flash pops during my video, no distracting eyelines during their stills.

Works great until we use freelancers. Because its essentially a publishing company I work for there is this attitude that print is king, on one shoot i was working on (awards vt for worthy kids) the freelance photographer turned up and said "phuq me, nobody told me there would be a video guy here, if he gets in my way He'll be getting fling to phuq, who's the producer for this?"

Hand held out

"Hiya, nice to meet you, I'm Paul, i'm directing the shoot today, would you like to start again perhaps?"

As I recall the guy took not bad stills, just seem to have lost his number so haven't been able to book him again.

On another televised shoot I was doing the post award reaction cam, with nice branded backdrop and 4x red lighting with key rim set fill, looking nice. Freelance tog turns up and starts demanding I get off his space, and starts messing around with my lights. He obviously hadn't handled reds before and i was in no mood to warn him. "Please don't do that...oops is that your shutter finger?, shaame"

The basic point is that these other togs are being very unprofessional, don't cause a scene, point out that you are the hired photographer, and that they are interupting your work. If that doesnt help then you need to involve the best man or head bridesmaid.


----------



## bycostello (Feb 7, 2013)

let them do their shot and then you do yours... no harm to stand back for a moment.


----------



## Chewngum (Feb 7, 2013)

It is a matter of attitude I think. I try to professional and friendly at the same time. Wedding or party there will still be 1000 mobile phones and cameras popping out from every angle. At times that matter I turn around and tell everyone I will go first and then they get their turn. Sharing the focus(pun intended) with un-hired people sucks and it ends up ruining everyones photos with shifting eyes. Don't compete, if you are paid to be there then have the confidence to talk to people and let everyone have a go. It is your job to make sure you make full use of your time with them looking only at you.


----------



## V8Beast (Feb 7, 2013)

I don't run into this too often, and can only imagine how bad it must get at weddings when there are hundreds of people standing around. Not too long ago, I was shooting a truck and the owner showed up with his wife, who was a graphic designer. I ran through the itinerary for the day, and pointed out which locations we'd be shooting at during which time of day. The wife took it upon herself to tell me which location to shoot at, and where to position the truck. As annoying as that was, I diffused the situation as politely as possible and the rest of the day went smoothly.


----------



## V8Beast (Feb 7, 2013)

paul13walnut5 said:


> As I recall the guy took not bad stills, just seem to have lost his number so haven't been able to book him again.



LMAO ;D That's the funniest line I've read in a long time ;D


----------



## bdunbar79 (Feb 7, 2013)

risc32 said:


> At nearly every wedding i've done lately i've had a friend, or aunt or whomever of the bride/groom basically acting as the lead photographer. Perhaps it's just by shear chance but they are always ladies. They also are either part time wedding photographers, or they mostly do portrait work, or they work with kids. It drives me completely insane. I'll be taking formal shots and half of the people will be looking at me and the others will be looking at the lady with the big nikon. When I go to weddings i'm not working I don't even bring my camera. And the few times I do, i sure as hell don't go fooling around during the formals, and I certainly don't grab the bride/groom and whisk them out the the reception for a bunch of posing shots.
> this happens to me all the time. I know what i'd like to say to the interloper, but i don't think it would go over very well. Anyone else exp this behavior?



I actually got tired of this and was shooting a senior night for sports at a high school the other night and told parents to get out of my way because I had to do my job. They were sort of taken aback but they got out of the way and I got my photos. You just gotta be an a** sometimes.


----------



## pwp (Feb 7, 2013)

As a professional you are going to out-perform the shoulder shooter by several orders of magnitude. At a wedding I never mind the shoulder shooters, make friends with them and get agreement that YOU are the primary shooter and not to get in you way. You never know, their shots may just save the day if the unimaginable happens.

But it depends on the situation. For many years I shot news & sports for a major metropolitan daily newspaper. To "shoulder-shoot" another news photographers setup was an open invitation for an almost immediate rather high level physical response. News photography can be a brutal environment. Organized photo-calls are slightly different, everyone generally has the same opportunity, it's your choice of timing, your chosen position, lens choice etc that may give you the "money" shot. But another shooter who has waited for hours in a prime position in a crowded situation will respond violently if you shove in for a shoulder shot.

So depending on the situation, the shoulder shooter can be a friend and make a job more fun, or be a mild irritation or an be your arch enemy.

-PW


----------



## picturesbyme (Feb 7, 2013)

ChilledXpress said:


> I actually *make it clear by contract with the client* that I am the hired gun for the day... brides are better to deal with because they usually run the show. Explaining that if they want great results, they must follow my lead or I can pack it up. Usually the client will wholeheartedly agree because they want perfection and *they are paying good money*. Sure, you'll never be able to shut it completely down but you can get yours in first and then let the guest go at it. Usually all it takes is a quick... "Right here!!!" and I get the attention back but you need to make this clear with the client before it all goes down.



Exactly.
Almost impossible to avoid from uncle Bobs but discussing this at the consultation with the couple and/or the coordinator + the contract could be a big help.


----------



## J.R. (Feb 7, 2013)

Interesting thread. 

I am a hobbyist and always take special care not to interrupt the paid pro-photographer at an event. However, sometimes I do utilize my 6-3 frame to literally shoot over the paid photographer's shoulder  - Of course I take the trouble to speak to them beforehand informing them of what I'm going to do and ask them whether it distracts them - not too many rake up a fuss as long as you are not (i) obstructing their view; (ii) ending up of getting involved in changing the composition of a shot


----------



## NotABunny (Feb 7, 2013)

First, to put things into perspective, I take photos at weddings, as a friend of the bride / groom. I don't use a flash and I don't get in the way of the photographer.

But here is the catch, I don't get in the way of the photographer because I think that the shots where this may happen are boring as hell, you know, posed shots (in the presence of everybody).

I go for candid moments, those shots that most people either don't see, or chances are you can't overlap with others taking photos.

If the photographer plans a specific pose, that is, has a specific idea rather than going for the usual "take a shot of everybody", I can't see how anyone would get in the way, or why the bride and groom would look to someone else. If this happens, it only means that the photographer is not showing who is the puppet master and appears to the other people as "just someone with a camera, like everybody else".

I have seen hired photographers tell the relative / friend type with compacts not to shoot at the same time because of their flash. Outside this, I think that the (hired) photographer has to adapt to the situation.

I mean, okay, you are annoyed by the gal / guy with a camera, but what do you do with all those people who moved around, back and forth, crossing your lens just as you trigger? Would you throw them out of the wedding? Would tell them to stay put in their chair? Are you telling yourself "oh, crap, I can't take candids because of all these people, I can only take posed but even then there are all these people..."?


----------



## AudioGlenn (Feb 7, 2013)

LOL. I actually think I was one of the annoying guests/photographers at my cousins wedding last December. I shoot weddings every once in a while. for my cousin... of course I'm gonna take pictures. The paid photographer was most definitely annoyed by all the other guests with DSLRs. (I was not the only one). The MC even made an announcement over the PA for everyone to "not to get in the way of the professional photographer".... it (the announcement) was pretty f'n douchey if you ask me. 

To be honest, you get no sympathy from me. When I'm at a wedding gig, I've just learned to deal with others who own cameras. It doesn't annoy me. You work around it. Hell, take a picture of them taking a picture. Get the subjects attention if they're trying to figure out which camera to look at. It's just gonna happen....it'll get worse for you if you don't change your attitude. 

remember: a reasonable man adapts to his environment. an unreasonable man will expect his environment to adapt to him.... think about it

btw, I saw the guys work afterwards. it was "aight"... seems to me, the photographers who are having trouble getting the job done "because guests are in the way" are the same ones who need a little more practice.


----------



## ewg963 (Feb 7, 2013)

Be professional, friendly and firm. Your work will shine through. If I'm not the main photographer and want the same shot the I'll ask the party or parties if they don't mind if they could please hold that pose for a second longer after the main takes his shots then I snap my shots. It's how you approach it!!! I love NOTABUNNY take with the candid shots and no flash option!!! +1 on that


----------



## ewg963 (Feb 7, 2013)

AudioGlenn said:


> LOL. I actually think I was one of the annoying guests/photographers at my cousins wedding last December. I shoot weddings every once in a while. for my cousin... of course I'm gonna take pictures. The paid photographer was most definitely annoyed by all the other guests with DSLRs. (I was not the only one). The MC even made an announcement over the PA for everyone to "not to get in the way of the professional photographer".... it (the announcement) was pretty f'n douchey if you ask me.
> 
> To be honest, you get no sympathy from me. When I'm at a wedding gig, I've just learned to deal with others who own cameras. It doesn't annoy me. You work around it. Hell, take a picture of them taking a picture. Get the subjects attention if they're trying to figure out which camera to look at. It's just gonna happen....it'll get worse for you if you don't change your attitude.
> 
> ...


+1


----------



## ewg963 (Feb 7, 2013)

J.R. said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> I am a hobbyist and always take special care not to interrupt the paid pro-photographer at an event. However, sometimes I do utilize my 6-3 frame to literally shoot over the paid photographer's shoulder  - Of course I take the trouble to speak to them beforehand informing them of what I'm going to do and ask them whether it distracts them - not too many rake up a fuss as long as you are not (i) obstructing their view; (ii) ending up of getting involved in changing the composition of a shot


+1


----------



## SiuLoong (Feb 7, 2013)

I also shoot friends weddings as a hobbyist, but I think it boils down to respect. I respect a professional as they are doing a job - I don't use flash, I don't take photos over their shoulder, I stay out of shot and I don't distract the subject. In general I don't take pictures of the group shots, but focus on candid shots the pro may miss - you can't be everywhere at once regardless of how good you are.

At a recent friends wedding the pro was informed by the bride and groom when booking that the candid shots capturing the feeling of the day were much more important than the posed shots - his response was that he only does the posed shots and not candids, so they asked me to take those pictures (I would have found another pro!) He was only around for a couple of hours from ceremony to posed shots - I shot the preparation, meal, speeches, cake, 1st dance and evening but put my camera away while he was working.

I do get frustrated on behalf of the photographer when people with compacts, phones and DSLRs on auto (flash pops up when the shutter is pressed and they seem surprised!) - I agree the pro needs to get the subjects to focus on him/her but what they can't control (even when asking politely) is flashes from other people affecting their exposures.


----------



## J.R. (Feb 7, 2013)

SiuLoong said:


> I also shoot friends weddings as a hobbyist, but I think it boils down to respect. I respect a professional as they are doing a job - I don't use flash, I don't take photos over their shoulder, I stay out of shot and I don't distract the subject. In general I don't take pictures of the group shots, but focus on candid shots the pro may miss - you can't be everywhere at once regardless of how good you are.
> 
> At a recent friends wedding the pro was informed by the bride and groom when booking that the candid shots capturing the feeling of the day were much more important than the posed shots - his response was that he only does the posed shots and not candids, so they asked me to take those pictures (I would have found another pro!) He was only around for a couple of hours from ceremony to posed shots - I shot the preparation, meal, speeches, cake, 1st dance and evening but put my camera away while he was working.
> 
> I do get frustrated on behalf of the photographer when people with compacts, phones and DSLRs on auto (flash pops up when the shutter is pressed and they seem surprised!) - I agree the pro needs to get the subjects to focus on him/her but what they can't control (even when asking politely) is flashes from other people affecting their exposures.



+1 ... The best thing to do is just ask! After all, an amateur or a hobbyist is only enjoying himself while the pro is doing his job for which he is _accountable_. From personal experience I've found that a lot of pros don't mind as long as you are not a distraction to the subject and not using flash.


----------



## Hobby Shooter (Feb 7, 2013)

V8Beast said:


> paul13walnut5 said:
> 
> 
> > As I recall the guy took not bad stills, just seem to have lost his number so haven't been able to book him again.
> ...


Agree ;D Made my evening here.


----------



## agierke (Feb 7, 2013)

i am a professional and do all kinds of work including alot of weddings. i always try to handle these situations in a friendly manner but i do have it in my contract that i will be the only photographer there for the day. that is of course not designed to stop family from taking pictures but i have run into situations where a Dj brought a camera guy and they were jumping into the action during the reception....definitely NOT ok.

my take on it is this...i think it is incredibly rude and inconsiderate to photograph during ANY important moments throughout the wedding if you are not the hired photographer. and i don't mean towards the photographer...i mean towards the bride and groom. they have spent a good deal of money to hire a professional. you should not disrespect the BRIDE and GROOM's investment by potentially being a distraction or getting in the way.

i have stopped bring any sort of camera at all to weddings i attend. i'm there to enjoy myself not to be distracted by "working". my wife is beyond thankful for this now.


----------



## awinphoto (Feb 7, 2013)

obviously you haven't had to work with a pesky art director, sales manager, marketing manager, or the anal retentive micro managing general manager on commercial shoots... You can easily be bothered or intimidated by how they can be... Some shoots, not often, my sets have to be approved by top management before I fire the shutter, just so I dont bother wasting my time if they dont like the set or want something changed... It happens.


----------



## emag (Feb 7, 2013)

The recent weddings I've attended were for a friend who married one of my co-workers and for my nephew. At the friend's wedding I stayed out of the way and mostly took candids. For the formals, I saw the photographer talking to the wedding party and gesturing toward friends and family with cameras who were standing around. He asked all of us to hold off until he was finished, then told us the wedding party would like us all to get our shots while they were still posed. He became an integral part of the reception and seemed to enjoy things as much as anyone.

At my nephew's wedding, I got one dirty glance from the photographer when he first spotted me using a long lens from a distance, I think he was concerned I would be Uncle Bob (Ed, actually) and get in the way at some point. Understandable. I never did and never tried to horn in on his money shot poses, just wanted photos of my favorite nephew's wedding, I live 1600 miles away. I didn't get any more dirty looks from him and he never offered to let friends and family take photos of his formal poses - went to a separate room and closed the door. He did not interact with reception guests (i.e., came up a little short on candids IMO) and had an air of "I'm a professional, do not interfere with or disturb me in any way."


Both professionals were well paid and did excellent work. If needed, I would hire one of them.


----------



## agierke (Feb 7, 2013)

> obviously you haven't had to work with a pesky art director, sales manager, marketing manager, or the anal retentive micro managing general manager on commercial shoots... You can easily be bothered or intimidated by how they can be... Some shoots, not often, my sets have to be approved by top management before I fire the shutter, just so I dont bother wasting my time if they dont like the set or want something changed... It happens



i have. the difference there being that there is usually as much time as you need to get the shot right. on weddings there is typically so very little time that even the slightest interruptions can start cutting into the opportunities for photos. not to even mention that if there is a distraction or someone getting in your way during a moment...its gone. no redoing it.

i love working with art director's because of the collaboration and the ability to craft a shot for a clients needs. weddings don't afford that luxury. there needs to be one person running the show...otherwise you are inviting potential troubles.


----------



## NotABunny (Feb 7, 2013)

Making use of the other people who photograph the newlyweds: http://www.southernlight.com.au/images/blog/scottmichelle/scottmichelle-7.jpg

The guy on the right, in the black suit, makes this look like an ad, to me.


----------



## sagittariansrock (Feb 7, 2013)

I have had this experience at my own wedding, when my friends and family members brought out their point-and-shoots and mobile phones during the formal poses. As a result, many of my immediate family members were looking in a different direction. I was pretty busy and ill on that day, so I didn't notice it right away, nor did the hired gun say anything. But I was very annoyed afterwards- if he had informed me what was going on, I'd have asked my family members to pose for the photographer irrespective of who else was shooting.
At the end of the day- it is the hired photographer's responsibility to get the job done. That includes dealing with insensitive guests, impatient brides and grooms, finding workarounds, and everything that entails. Befriend, request, coerce, force, blackmail, threaten- do whatever you need to, but get the pictures.


----------



## risc32 (Feb 8, 2013)

I think some of you aren't understanding what i'm talking about, and also my reasoning for posting this. I'm not worried about people getting in my frame while i'm shooting across the crowded room. I expect that. and i'm okay with people getting in their shots after i got mine. I'm usually using an off camera light with a modifier, so it's not like there shots are even going to be close to mine no matter what they do anyway, so i don't really care. but even while i'm shooting and the shoulder shooter is saying "don't look at me, look at his camera" 1/2 of them still look at her. During this last shoot the lady pestering me came over after the ceremony and even asked me if i had 4 aa's she could borrow for her flash. I didn't as i was eating batteries like crazy because the place was a blackhole, but really... you want to borrow bats?


----------



## ChilledXpress (Feb 8, 2013)

risc32 said:


> I think some of you aren't understanding what i'm talking about, and also my reasoning for posting this. I'm not worried about people getting in my frame while i'm shooting across the crowded room. I expect that. and i'm okay with people getting in their shots after i got mine. I'm usually using an off camera light with a modifier, so it's not like there shots are even going to be close to mine no matter what they do anyway, so i don't really care. but even while i'm shooting and the shoulder shooter is saying "don't look at me, look at his camera" 1/2 of them still look at her. During this last shoot the lady pestering me came over after the ceremony and even asked me if i had 4 aa's she could borrow for her flash. I didn't as i was eating batteries like crazy because the place was a blackhole, but really... you want to borrow bats?



Maybe you could have just loaned her your camera to finsh up what she started :


----------



## CharlieB (Feb 8, 2013)

risc32 said:


> At nearly every wedding i've done lately i've had a friend, or aunt or whomever of the bride/groom basically acting as the lead photographer. Anyone else exp this behavior?



You should bring this up to the wedding couple before the wedding, when you sign the contract and take your retainer. 

Once you have your stipulation in writing, a quiet word from the bride (or groom) will abate such activities. You are being paid, and are under contract to produce results. Hindrance by others cannot be tolerated if it makes your commitment to the wedding couple unworkable.


----------



## RMC33 (Feb 8, 2013)

Every now and again I get someone while working in the park or pipe who demands I take pictures of them. When I say no they usually ski off and I don't see them again. Some times I get parents who do the same thing.. and HOUND me till I have to tell them I can't as they do not have any affiliation with the mountain nor do they have a release signed. This will either send them on their way or set them off with a whole "I have a condo here and spend a week every year and I DEMAND YOU TAKE MY (&(*#&$(* PHOTO". 

Not "over the shoulder" but I do get a few younger guys/gals now and again who ask a lot of questions... I honestly relish having them take interest and hanging around as they love to impress and can be a huge benefit.


----------



## bycostello (Feb 9, 2013)

RMC33 said:


> "I have a condo here and spend a week every year and I DEMAND YOU TAKE MY (&(*#&$(* PHOTO".




Time to start talking about your fee i think??


----------



## DCM1024 (Feb 9, 2013)

ChilledXpress said:


> It's pretty funny, take a look at the "The need for backup equipment for paid jobs" thread. The OP's website has quite a few photos with the bride/groom looking elsewhere... either another photographer or she was poaching and calling it her gig. Regardless... looks very bad!



I just saw this and took a look at my website. There are five photos where the bride and groom were not looking directly at me. Two are candids, I was acting as 2nd shooter in the other three and just getting another angle while not distracting the bride and groom from the primary photographer.


----------



## Valvebounce (Apr 8, 2013)

risc32 said:


> During this last shoot the lady pestering me came over after the ceremony and even asked me if i had 4 aa's she could borrow for her flash. I didn't as i was eating batteries like crazy because the place was a blackhole, but really... you want to borrow bats?



Hi guys, first I'm a newby, and I hope you forgive me for digging up old posts, I'm really enjoying reading the older posts, and mostly only reading, but a few I have found a strong desire to pass comment.
I am strictly amateur if you take the earning thing to make a pro, but I try to take the act of freezing moments in time seriously, I do take gear to weddings, and have had the pro pass comment audibly but not to my face about that bloody flash, modified my behaviour to take account of his comment, as my friends were paying him, would have done it earlier if he had made me aware, one of those things I hadn't thought about until it was mentioned, very conscious of it now! I had the pleasure of donating a set of 4AAs to his fund as he forgot / burned through his spare set, I had 4 in the gun and 8 spares! 
Another party was the inlaws xxth anniversary, I was primary photog as in, you have a nice camera don't you? Will you take some snaps for us! :-X
One of the guests was a photog teacher, someone I would expect to be of "pro" level, she pointed out that I could be using my flash differently, it was off camera held aloft on a cord with a stofen at the time, and she suggested I should bounce from the ceiling, I suggested she look up, the ceiling was criss crossed with beams and had disco lights dangling all over, she still didn't get the significance until I explained about casting shadows! 
What was that we used to say at school, can't do it, teach it?
Cheers, Graham.


----------



## bycostello (Apr 8, 2013)

work with them not against them...


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Apr 8, 2013)

Slave flashes and other folks cameras are a killer. I'm surprised at any working pro not using dedicated wireless or third party radio triggers inthis day and age though. You only need one shoot ruined by camera phones and compacts to need the incentiveto buy alien bees or the likes, I would havethought begging deaf great grannies to disable their compacts flash would get rather tedious week in week out.


----------



## wickidwombat (Apr 8, 2013)

paul13walnut5 said:


> Slave flashes and other folks cameras are a killer. I'm surprised at any working pro not using dedicated wireless or third party radio triggers inthis day and age though. You only need one shoot ruined by camera phones and compacts to need the incentiveto buy alien bees or the likes, I would havethought begging deaf great grannies to disable their compacts flash would get rather tedious week in week out.



exactly right

I use odins for off camera and usually have 3 580 exii flashes setup when off camera
in this situation the tiny pop from a compact wont even register in the shot

or shooting with on camera flash its not a bother since i take multiple shots so the odd extra little bit of flash that might sneak in will have little effect or not really matter to me

I had a bigger issue at 1 wedding where the grooms sister decided she would direct the bridal party in all posed shots, until I informed her politely that we would rather give the instructions since we knew what we were looking for in the shots. She took it a bit hard at first but it had to be done


----------



## Chewngum (Apr 8, 2013)

A big tip if this is happening is that whenever you are not taking a photo point your camera at the ground and then point it at the subject when you are taking a photo. Since doing this I have had no problems with wandering eyes due to other cameras.


----------



## Sith Zombie (Apr 8, 2013)

paul13walnut5 said:


> no distracting eyelines during their stills.
> 
> 
> the freelance photographer turned up and said "phuq me, nobody told me there would be a video guy here, if he gets in my way He'll be getting fling to phuq, who's the producer for this?"
> ...



Lol! Smooth as silk! nice 
Just out of interest what are 'the distracting eyelines'?


----------



## Inspiron41 (Apr 8, 2013)

Of course you'll have people looking your shoulders, especially with family members. You gotta be quick and smart about when you start your formals, whether it's at the house, church, park or at the reception. but at the same time, you gotta be respectful of their guests.


----------



## sanj (Apr 8, 2013)

This is reality of life. We all need to learn to deal with it.

Learning to deal with it is as important as photography skills...!

Or become so so so great that everyone trusts you to be the best and then they stay away.


----------



## rpt (Apr 8, 2013)

sanj said:


> This is reality of life. We all need to learn to deal with it.
> 
> Learning to deal with it is as important as photography skills...!
> 
> Or become so so so great that everyone trusts you to be the best and then they stay away.


Or get really tall 
Stilts could help. Lenses have IS these days to offset the wobble...


Sanj and Inspiron are right though...


----------



## lucuias (Apr 16, 2013)

I get this alot when I shoot event and wedding.For wedding,I will face their friends and relatives tried to take some shot with their cell phone or compact camera.While events,I will face those reporters from various of newspaper.
Often,I will let them have the shot 1st then I lift up my camera and raise my hand asking everyone look at me with strong and firm tone.Just 1 or 2 shot make sure everyone looking into the camera and I will leave the place while allowing someone else take the shot.
Then,I grab some candid with my 70-200 while they were been photographer by others.


----------

