# Canon to Continue Using Canon Sensors in DSLRs



## Jon_D (Nov 3, 2014)

> A very good source told me that the upcoming multi-layer, Foveon-like sensors that was mentioned in a rumor weeks ago will be made by Sony. I give the rumor of a Sony-made Foveon sensor a good possibility to be true. This sensor is said to be featured in two new pro-grade cameras that will be announced in Q1 2015.
> 
> Beside that this rumor comes from one of my best sources, I think it is plausible. It would not be the first time that Canon mounts a sensor made by Sony on their cameras. Even if there is no evidence, it is almost sure that the new Canon Powershot G7 X sports a Sony sensor.
> 
> ...




http://www.canonwatch.com/canons-upcoming-multi-layer-sensor-made-sony/#disqus_thread


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## Woody (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *

If this is true, Jrista is probably over the moon now. ;D

On the other hand, it's entirely possible that Sony facilities are used to fabricate the sensor but sensor design comes from Canon.


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## Jon_D (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



Woody said:


> On the other hand, it's entirely possible that Sony facilities are used to fabricate the sensor but sensor design comes from Canon.



what about industrial espionage?
would that not be a problem?

buying a finished sensor is no problem but handing out all your technical stuff to a competing company so they can produce your latest and greatest?

i mean sony is not like other companys who could produce sensors for canon, they are a direct competitor.

it´s not like apple is handing out chip production to TSMC.
TSMC does not produce phones or tablets.


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## Maximilian (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



Jon_D said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > On the other hand, it's entirely possible that Sony facilities are used to fabricate the sensor but sensor design comes from Canon.
> ...


As long as this sensor is not produced in China I would say that patents are saving the knowledge of the sensor design. And Sony surely could do a fast reverse engineering of a new Canon sensor Canon made.
Only if there are some special tricks and quirks during the production process this could be critical to espionage.
But if it's a standard production process...

Of course I would prefer to see a real Canon made Canon sensor.


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## rs (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



Jon_D said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > On the other hand, it's entirely possible that Sony facilities are used to fabricate the sensor but sensor design comes from Canon.
> ...


Apple also get Samsung to produce many components for them such as processors and displays, and they _do_ produce phones and tablets.


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## Coldhands (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



Jon_D said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > On the other hand, it's entirely possible that Sony facilities are used to fabricate the sensor but sensor design comes from Canon.
> ...



Joint ventures, supplier relationships, and other similar arrangements between competing companies is quite common in many industries. The terms are always bound by air-tight legal documents specifying every detail of how the shared knowledge can or cannot be used.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 3, 2014)

```
<p>A new <a href="http://www.canonwatch.com/canons-upcoming-multi-layer-sensor-made-sony/" target="_blank">rumor floating around</a> the web says that Canon is going to use Sony multi-layer sensors on two upcoming professional cameras. Myself as well as <a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html" target="_blank">Northlight both received emails disputing this claim</a> and that Canon will definitely continue to use Canon designed and manufacturers sensors in their DSLRs for the foreseeable future. Canon has used Sony sensors in the past with compact cameras, and most recently in the PowerShot G7 X.</p>
<p>Northlight points out and summarizes a <a href="http://www.dpreview.com/articles/7079726133/photokina-2014-canon-interview-mirrorless-in-the-very-near-future" target="_blank">recent Canon interview with DPR</a>.</p>
<p><strong>Q:</strong> Canon released two cameras at Photokina – the EOS 7D Mark II and PowerShot G7X. One thing we’ve learned is that the sensor in the G7X is not made by Canon. Does this represent a new philosophy at Canon?

<strong>A:</strong> We select the best sensor, whoever the manufacturer is. That’s our policy.</p>
<p><em>“As yet I’ve seen nothing to suggest that Canon’s choice of (small) sensors for the compact market will be reflected in their pro kit. The comparison with Nikon using Sony manufactured sensors (with Nikon design input) is an easy one to make, but misses the point that Nikon is primarily a camera company, whilst Canon isn’t, any more than Sony is.”</em></p>
<p>A commenter also mentioned Dual Pixel AF, which is a big part of Canon’s marketing for sensors.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## wockawocka (Nov 3, 2014)

I can't see it either because of Dual Pixel AF.

However, I would like to see something as I'm sniffing around the D750. Something which I never thought would happen. Not to replace my Canon kit, more to accompany it for bad lighting situations.

Because a bit like Canon not being loyal to any manufacturer, neither am I.

I use Hasselblad, Canon and Sigma DP cameras.


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## expatinasia (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



Maximilian said:


> As long as this sensor is not produced in China I would say that patents are saving the knowledge of the sensor design...



Oh please.....



Canon Rumors said:


> Q: Canon released two cameras at Photokina – the EOS 7D Mark II and PowerShot G7X. One thing we’ve learned is that the sensor in the G7X is not made by Canon. Does this represent a new philosophy at Canon?
> 
> A: We select the best sensor, whoever the manufacturer is. That’s our policy.



That's quite a statement, I wonder whether Sony can use it in their marketing materials.


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## sandymandy (Nov 3, 2014)

Put in Leica sensor then


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## Jon_D (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



rs said:


> Jon_D said:
> 
> 
> > Woody said:
> ...



they buy them... that does not mean apple has developed them and let samsung manufacture them. apple just says.. make me a LCD with these specs.

most LCD displays are made by 3-4 companys and ARM processors are licensed anyway.

imo it´s different with critical parts like canons own chips or sensors designs.


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## Lawliet (Nov 3, 2014)

wockawocka said:


> I can't see it either because of Dual Pixel AF.



Only at the first glance!
Everybody else has phase detect on sensor as well. Some even cross types while taking more reading per second.
DPAF only gives you a benefit if the object is so narrow it would slip through those already very dense PDAF grids, but long enough to be properly identified. I.e. the tech is conceptionally interesting, but on the one hand not much of a practical advantage, on the other a liability due to the limited number of readout channels Canon uses.


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## Jon_D (Nov 3, 2014)

Lawliet said:


> wockawocka said:
> 
> 
> > I can't see it either because of Dual Pixel AF.
> ...



and most of them are able to do faster readout then canon too.

the 7D2 dualpixel AF does not work with 60 FPS.


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## Maximilian (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



expatinasia said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > As long as this sensor is not produced in China I would say that patents are saving the knowledge of the sensor design...
> ...


Sorry, but I have seen far, far too many things in consumer and industrial products.
In other countries at least you can claim your patent rights on court and know that judiciary is independent.

PS.: Or what would be the reason that Canon is only producing the "low cost" stuff in China but not their pro lenses and Bodies? Quality control? That is something you can easily achieve there if you're trying.


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## Lawliet (Nov 3, 2014)

Jon_D said:


> the 7D2 dualpixel AF does not work with 60 FPS.



You noticed that as well?
It gives us an idea of why there is neither 4K or the "full readout&downsampling for more details & no moiree"-path.


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## Jon_D (Nov 3, 2014)

and what could be the reason canon will use sonys fabs for their owns sensor design?

that would only make sense when canon has no fab that is able to produce such sensors.
from what i read canon has fabs with smaller litho processes.. it just not using them for FF sensors yet.


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## Maximilian (Nov 3, 2014)

Jon_D said:


> and what could be the reason canon will use sonys fabs for their owns sensor design?
> 
> that would only make sense when canon has no fab that is able to produce such sensors.
> from what i read canon has fabs with smaller litho processes.. it just not using them for FF sensors yet.


If Canon does not yet have this process for their big sensors (APS-C and FF) this will be the main reason.
Not needing to buy and run (by needed QC!) a new line, but to better utilize the one from Sony and get the sensors at a lower production cost.
Lower production cost is the main thing about this. If they were not satisfied with their sensors image quality they wouldn't have put it again into a 7D2, would they?


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## Lawliet (Nov 3, 2014)

Maximilian said:


> If Canon does not yet have this process for their big sensors (APS-C and FF) this will be the main reason.



Its not about the process per se, but a more fundamental matter; mainly limited bandwidth inherent to the design and all that entails.


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## Jon_D (Nov 3, 2014)

Maximilian said:


> Jon_D said:
> 
> 
> > and what could be the reason canon will use sonys fabs for their owns sensor design?
> ...



as i wrote afaik canon has the resources. 

if they have not it may make sense. 
but i guess there would be other companys, who are not direct competitors, who could do it.

just as info IBM is selling it´s fabs because it can not utilize them enough.
and it´s not that there is a tremendous demand today, camera sales are going back.

so if canon has the fabs im pretty sure they would use them.



> If they were not satisfied with their sensors image quality they wouldn't have put it again into a 7D2, would they?



well.. the 7D 2 was in the making for quite some time.
you don´t change a camera quickly and decide to put in a different sensor.

imo the rumor makes more sense if canon buys the complete sensor from sony.
small chance.. but in my opinion bigger chance then sonys manufacturing canon sensors for canon.


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## Maximilian (Nov 3, 2014)

Jon_D said:


> as i wrote afaik canon has the resources.


Jon, I didn't want to touch you and your arguments. More than that I wanted to point in the same direction you were asking.

I am not really deeply involved in the production processes Canon has. Therefore I am no expert. 
I too did read that Canon has production resources with smaller litho - for the small P&S sensors.
I believe that changing them for big sensors is not that easy. 

Two possibilities:
1. They do not have resources for full frame.
2. The resources are already fully stretched.

Or a third possibility, mentioned by CR:
3. This rumor is simply wrong. But I was arguing in the assumption what if this was right. So that doesn't count.



> well.. the 7D 2 was in the making for quite some time.
> you don´t change a camera quickly and decide to put in a different sensor.


Well, there also were rumors about 7D2 prototypes with a new - more performant - sensor design in the field.
I don't know the truth... I only know that such a sensor is not built into the serial models. As you I am only making assumptions, based on rumors and having fun with that. 
Hope, you too


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 3, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> _Q: Canon released two cameras at Photokina – the EOS 7D Mark II and PowerShot G7X. One thing we’ve learned is that the sensor in the G7X is not made by Canon. Does this represent a new philosophy at Canon?
> 
> 
> A: We select the best sensor, whoever the manufacturer is. That’s our policy._



'Best' can be defined in many ways. In this case, 'best at making a profit for our business' is likely the most apt definition.


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## AcutancePhotography (Nov 3, 2014)

"A note: during a recent interview with DPreview, when asked about the G7 X sensor, a Canon representative *Marketing person* said:
... A: We select the best sensor, whoever the manufacturer is. That’s our policy."


Fixed.


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## PhotoCat (Nov 3, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> "A note: during a recent interview with DPreview, when asked about the G7 X sensor, a Canon representative *Marketing person* said:
> ... A: We select the best sensor, whoever the manufacturer is. That’s our policy."
> 
> 
> Fixed.



+1 LOL!


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## David Hull (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



Jon_D said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > On the other hand, it's entirely possible that Sony facilities are used to fabricate the sensor but sensor design comes from Canon.
> ...


It is a bit the other way around actually. Sony would have to tip their hat to Canon in that they would have to provide all of their process models and libraries to enable Canon to design on their fab. That said, unless Sony is geared up to support fabless semiconductor companies, they may not really have the support in place to allow Canon to use their fabs.


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## jrista (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



Woody said:


> If this is true, Jrista is probably over the moon now. ;D
> 
> On the other hand, it's entirely possible that Sony facilities are used to fabricate the sensor but sensor design comes from Canon.




Not really. It's never been my goal to see Sony own the sensors in the vast majority of cameras. That would be terrible, as it would mean a monopoly, which would just stifle innovation in the long run.


What I want is for Canon to step up their game and compete. I like the idea of Canon's total in-house integration. It just seems like they are focusing on everything but sensors, and have been for some time. I find that sad. Canon's lack of competition in the sensor marketplace is going to bite them in the ass at some point (and I believe that Nikon already gained a good deal of market share in the high end DSLR market thanks to their improved sensor IQ). 


Canon losing ground or even losing out entirely in the competitive race against Sony would be a real negative, IMO. 


I honestly don't think Canon will be using a Sony-manufactured sensor. Even if it is a "Canon-designed" sensor, it just doesn't seem like either Canon nor Sony would work together as competitors like that. I think Canon is also WAAAY too prideful to step out and even try that...given the last interview with Masaya Maeda where he basically bold-faced lied about the state of their sensor tech.


On a side note, I don't consider Canon's use of Sony sensors in their compact cameras to be the same. Those are mass-market devices, and Canon has been using Sony CCDs in that arena for a very, very long time. It's the high end pro and semipro cameras that I think Canon takes a lot of pride in their "all in house, fully integrated" model.


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## ahsanford (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



jrista said:


> I honestly don't think Canon will be using a Sony-manufactured sensor. Even if it is a "Canon-designed" sensor, it just doesn't seem like either Canon nor Sony would work together as competitors like that. I think Canon is also WAAAY too prideful to step out and even try that...given the last interview with Masaya Maeda where he basically bold-faced lied about the state of their sensor tech.



+1 

Pride pride pride. Top end gear will be entirely an in-house affair for Canon until they start losing pros in large enough numbers *expressly for sensor reasons* (DR, resolution, etc.).

I don't put stock in DXO's thoughts about Canon's sensors, but there is a fundamental argument that higher resolution and higher DR (at lower ISO) is a weak point for Canon's most demanding users. But the fact that the 5D3 is still sitting near its original asking price some 2.5 years later says that it's still a very desirable camera (or Canon is losing its shirt to make a point about protecting price). 

But there _must_ come a point where everything else that Canon does well -- that epic stable of glass, CPS, the ergonomics, reliability, access to massive third-party ecosystem of products, etc. -- could eventually be overpowered by a concern over Canon's sensors. Canon's sky is not falling by any means, but if I'm an executive at Canon, the "Threats of losing pros" on my SWOT list would be as follows:

[list type=decimal]
[*]The sensor.
[*]The sensor.
[*]The sensor.
[*]That silly mirrorless thing we're supposed to be working on.
[*]The sensor.
[/list]



- A


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## unfocused (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



ahsanford said:


> Top end gear will be entirely an in-house affair for Canon until they start losing pros in large enough numbers *expressly for sensor reasons* (DR, resolution, etc.).



Most pros could not care less about the slight dynamic range differences between sensors.



ahsanford said:


> ...But the fact that the 5D3 is still sitting near its original asking price some 2.5 years later says that it's still a very desirable camera (or Canon is losing its shirt to make a point about protecting price).



Which shows that high end enthusiasts and pros aren't concerned about this small issue. Obviously Canon is not losing its shirt. The 5DIII continues to do very well because it remains equal to or better than it's competitors in overall quality, regardless of how it may score on one minor data point that comes into play rarely if ever.



ahsanford said:


> But there _must_ come a point where everything else that Canon does well -- that epic stable of glass, CPS, the ergonomics, reliability, access to massive third-party ecosystem of products, etc. -- could eventually be overpowered by a concern over Canon's sensors.



If the concern were significant that would be true. But, keep in mind we are talking about tiny, tiny differences that have little to no impact in 99.9% of cases. Plus, it isn't even an overall weakness. It is again, just one small data point in sensor attributes.

Most reviewers are declaring the 7DII the best APS-C camera made and noting that no one else has a camera that can compete against it. Overall, the new sensor is as good or better than other APS-C sensors.

I personally hope Canon does not expend too many resources on making tiny improvements to sensors. There are much bigger threats out there (light field cameras, for example, represent a much bigger threat because they are truly disruptive technology).


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## ahsanford (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



unfocused said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Top end gear will be entirely an in-house affair for Canon until they start losing pros in large enough numbers *expressly for sensor reasons* (DR, resolution, etc.).
> ...



Absolutely, you are correct, but landscape shooters would love more low-ISO DR. It seems the D800/800E/810 + that epic 14-24 lens is a great landscape combination for Nikon in that regard. Don't get me wrong, I love the new 16-35 F/4L IS on my 5D3, but the majority of landscape stories I read / videos I see tout that Nikon combination as the one to beat.



unfocused said:


> I personally hope Canon does not expend too many resources on making tiny improvements to sensors. There are much bigger threats out there (light field cameras, for example, represent a much bigger threat because they are truly disruptive technology).



Agree that lightfield tech could become powerfully disruptive _someday_, but I think most people would argue that mirrorless will be far more disruptive in the mid-term.

- A


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## jebrady03 (Nov 3, 2014)

While DR limitations don't really bother me, low ISO noise does (and obviously the two are related). When I read the headline I thought to myself... "Canon gonna Canon". For those who don't know, that's a take off on "haters gonna hate" which is a way for people to say "it doesn't really matter what others [haters] say that's negative, because all they do is spew negativity". 

It doesn't really matter what everyone says about Canon and their low ISO noise, Canon is going to keep doing what they're doing...


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## vscd (Nov 3, 2014)

> Most pros could not care less about the slight dynamic range differences between sensors.



That's right. I even would go further... they know, that the difference changes in higher ISO-Ranges. For sports- or Indoorphotography you usually don't use anything below ISO800. On sportevents because of the longer lenses and inside rooms because of the available light.

So let's check the differences of two nearly equally released and categoritzed cams:






So, the (quite huge) difference on ISO 100 flips to an *advantage* of Canon-Sensors from ISO 800 and upwards. No one tells you this, but it's the opposite of what the forums are telling on and on and on (Hi Drones!). I even wonder why DXO makes no intersection between lo and high of the (unpushed) ISO-Modes.

Canon is traditionally an autofocus/sports aranged brand, I think. So, from their side the sentence "our sensors are the best" could be true, really. For portraits you may use the Nikon instead--- and hell, a real pro doesn't care about brands. If you shoot portraits you can get far better results with a Pentax 645, a cam not much more expensive than a D4s.


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## BLFPhoto (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



given the last interview with Masaya Maeda where he basically bold-faced lied about the state of their sensor tech.

[/quote]

Attend many Canon executive meetings? Work in their manufacturing and engineering teams? 

That's a highly inflammatory, bold statement for someone on the outside looking in. I deeply respect your knowledge of general sensor and IC technology but, respectfully, you don't have the position, information, or perspective to call someone inside Canon a liar. I see all sorts of statements like these by pundits whose tone comes across as if they have some inside knowledge calling out all of these companies for alleged motives and/or improprieties. It happens here about Canon, over on Nikonians about Nikon, and elsewhere about whatever company is on topic. I especially love the discussions where people make marionettes out of the engineers for the mythical Marketing monster to move around at will. That's a complete lack of perspective on how an entity like Canon, Nikon, or otherwise operate. 

It is good enough for you to write intelligently about what is known about current products and how you feel about their level relative to what you believe is state-of-the-art. You do yourself and your considerable insight there a great discredit when you impugn the integrity and motives of those whom you do not know and have no reasonable knowledge of. 

Can you stick to just discussing the aspects of sensor design and a discussion of their merits?


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## jrista (Nov 3, 2014)

The notion that more DR is only for low ISO is now an old and archaic notion. The A7s changed the game again, as it brings more than two stops additional DR at very high ISO (1DX=6.6 sops, A7s=8.8 stops @ ISO 51200). The A7s has 8.8 stops of DR at ISO 51200! That is on top of having 12.9 stops of DR at ISO 100 (vs. the 1D X 11.2 stops). 


Granted, the 1D X is a superior camera for it's intended use cases, which are primarily fast action shooting. However, I'd happily take a 1D XI that had 13 stops of DR at ISO 100, and even more happily take a 1D XI that had ~9 stops of DR at ISO 51200! That would be amazing. Not for shadow pushing, no...an additional two stops of DR at ultra high ISO makes it that much more usable, and printable at large sizes. 


More dynamic range is more dynamic range. It allows for shadow pushing when you have more DR than a computer screen can render, but that is not it's only benefit. More DR means less noise, throughout the entire signal. More DR at high ISO is just as valuable, and arguably even more valuable, than more DR at low ISO because it means less noise globally. I would say that ISO 3200 is pretty usable on my 5D III pretty much all the time...however two more stops of DR would mean ISO 12800 becomes the new ISO 3200. I'd pay...a lot, to have that kind of high ISO performance in the 5D IV. It means cleaner, crisper photos with better color and sharper detail, with more flexibility to use motion-freezing shutter speeds in increasingly difficult lighting (such as the dim post-sunset light where ungulates and many other wildlife, hawks, etc. are often most active.)


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## ahsanford (Nov 3, 2014)

vscd said:


> > Most pros could not care less about the slight dynamic range differences between sensors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sure. It's exactly those sort of charts that have people say portraiture and landscape does well with Nikon and events, photojournalism and sports are Canon's territory. But every type of shooter has both Canon and Nikon users and competent folks net great shots. Talent trumps the tech unless you are shooting yetis in darkness at ISO 2 Million.

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



unfocused said:


> Most reviewers are declaring the 7DII the best APS-C camera made and noting that no one else has a camera that can compete against it.



Yeah, but that's only because the DxOMark Scores haven't come out yet. Once that happens, all those 7DII reviewers will realize how foolish they look for touting a camera that scores no better than the 70D, and nearly the same as the original (now so dated as to be decrepit) 7D. Heck, the D7100 gets a better Sports Score than the 7D(inosaur), I'm sure it'll beat the 7DII (no need to consider AF, fps or buffer for Sports, after all).

Reviewers will have egg on their face, and no one will buy the 7DII. 

: : :


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## jrista (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



BLFPhoto said:


> > given the last interview with Masaya Maeda where he basically bold-faced lied about the state of their sensor tech.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm sorry, but I'm far from the only person who was rather ticked off by Maeda's comments regarding their sensor technology. Even the interviewer was surprised by the response. Look at the comments on DPR's page for that interview...the very vast majority of the commentators were blown away by Maeda's comment about their sensor tech, the way he feigned surprise at the notion that there were any sensors on the market that performed better than Canon's.


Sorry, but I could really care less what you guys find "inflammatory" these days. Every word I write is inflammatory, so I am done caring about writing inflammatory things. You want to take offense at what I write, go right ahead, it doesn't matter to me. It doesn't take sitting on the Canon board to read between the lines of a set of interview responses like that. Canon is covering their ass, playing games, and pretending nothing is wrong (which is honestly not surprising, given they are a Japanese company...this is just a matter of "saving face"...however it really isn't saving them anything, as the vast majority of people who read that interview saw right through the facade, and a lot were quite unhappy with it all.)


I'm done having this community dictate to me what I can or cannot say. Be offended, if that's how you choose to respond to what I write. I no longer give a damn.


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## Dylan777 (Nov 3, 2014)

jrista said:


> The notion that more DR is only for low ISO is now an old and archaic notion. The A7s changed the game again, as it brings more than two stops additional DR at very high ISO (1DX=6.6 sops, A7s=8.8 stops @ ISO 51200). The A7s has 8.8 stops of DR at ISO 51200! That is on top of having 12.9 stops of DR at ISO 100 (vs. the 1D X 11.2 stops).
> 
> 
> Granted, the 1D X is a superior camera for it's intended use cases, which are primarily fast action shooting. However, I'd happily take a 1D XI that had 13 stops of DR at ISO 100, and even more happily take a 1D XI that had ~9 stops of DR at ISO 51200! That would be amazing. Not for shadow pushing, no...an additional two stops of DR at ultra high ISO makes it that much more usable, and printable at large sizes.
> ...



I'm no expert in DR stuff. I did get a chance to play with A7s(rental) last Friday-Halloween. I was shooting with A7s + FE 55mm f1.8 and 1DX + 85L II. I set both cameras to @ f1.8 shutter speed around 200ish. Shooting condition was in school parking lot. At higher ISO, 25000ish, the a7s does have the upper hand. I'm not sure it has to do with Sony sensor or lower MP, compared to 1DX. All raw files were converted through DxO Prime same setting.

To me, most Pros would use flash(s) in shooting condition I was in.


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## ahsanford (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



neuroanatomist said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Most reviewers are declaring the 7DII the best APS-C camera made and noting that no one else has a camera that can compete against it.
> ...



Neuro's tongue-in-cheek notwithstanding, I am curious to see the brouhaha that comes of DXO stating that Canon has (hypothetically) only improved one point over the 7D in their absurd rating system after 5 years of development.

There's already a thunderous din about how the 7D2 preliminarily appears to offer the same high ISO performance as the 70D, and only offers a stop better performance than the 7D (again: after five years). I'm still waiting for the Carnathans of the world to demonstrate this more thoroughly, but if substantiated, I can only imagine the ruckus that will ensue across the world's photo forums. 

There's so much more to a camera than a sensor, but it is our favorite thing to obsess about, isn't it?

- A


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## jebrady03 (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



ahsanford said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



I'm sure DxO is looking forward to it as well. MORE TRAFFIC!!!! (to their already abysmally slow website)


----------



## jrista (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



jebrady03 said:


> I'm sure DxO is looking forward to it as well. MORE TRAFFIC!!!! * (to their already abysmally slow website)*




It really is. Which is why I don't bother anymore...I just use Sensorgen.info (same core data, left up to us to interpret, without DXO's inane black box data massaging.)


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## jrista (Nov 3, 2014)

Dylan777 said:


> I'm no expert in DR stuff. I did get a chance to play with A7s(rental) last Friday-Halloween. I was shooting with A7s + FE 55mm f1.8 and 1DX + 85L II. I set both cameras to @ f1.8 shutter speed around 200ish. Shooting condition was in school parking lot. At higher ISO, 25000ish, the a7s does have the upper hand. I'm not sure it has to do with Sony sensor or lower MP, compared to 1DX. All raw files were converted through DxO Prime same setting.




It would be the sensor. At that high of an ISO, it would be a combination of Q.E. and pixel size (although in the absence of pixel size, you can always average down in post and get similar, although possibly not quite as good, results.) The A7s also uses the BionzX 16-bit processing pipeline, which applies NR per pixel in the camera. 


The big difference with the 1D X is the Q.E. and processing...Q.E. alone is quite important, 48% vs. 65%...that's a significant difference. If the 1D XI gets a DIGIC 6 or better yet a DIGIC 7 with improved NR capabilities, we might see an improvement in total DR, meaning the part of the signal not affected by read noise should improve. DIGIC 6 seems to have helped the 7D II a bit on that front...it may have the same read noise, but the rest of it's signal definitely seems improved over the original 7D.


Canon's read noise is probably always going to be the prime limiting factor on DR, so until they get their read noise issues resolved, I don't see Canon breaking 12 stops native DR, regardless of whether they jump to ~60% Q.E., or increase pixel size, or anything else.


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## PureClassA (Nov 3, 2014)

What specifically do you think the issue is then with the DIGIC chips? Three generations later since the 1DX, and sounds like you still think they are the limiting factor. Is it the processing speed? Architecture? firmware? Etc...? I guess I'm asking what portion of the chips is it you believe to be the culprit. If speed, could Canon not look to more experienced chip builders like Intel, AMD, Samsung (fill in the blank)... not to say they would.... But do you think Canon is technologically limited on chip construction as they seem to be with Sensors as compared to some others out there?


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## jrista (Nov 3, 2014)

PureClassA said:


> What specifically do you think the issue is then with the DIGIC chips? Three generations later since the 1DX, and sounds like you still think they are the limiting factor. Is it the processing speed? Architecture? firmware? Etc...? I guess I'm asking what portion of the chips is it you believe to be the culprit. If speed, could Canon not look to more experienced chip builders like Intel, AMD, Samsung (fill in the blank)... not to say they would.... But do you think Canon is technologically limited on chip construction as they seem to be with Sensors as compared to some others out there?




I'm not sure it's the DIGIC, it may be the ADC units (which someone pointed out recently, based on a ChipWorks diagram, are independent of the DIGIC processors). I suspect the ADC, as once the data is digital it shouldn't be prone to picking up noise in the same way. I think the ultimate problem is operating frequency. A LOT of work has been done over the years to increase ADC parallelism. One of Exmor (and the Toshiba APS-C sensors used by Nikon) strengths is on-die per-column ADC. That greatly increases ADC parallelism, which allows each ADC unit to operate at a lower frequency. 


These days, there are now even patents for per-pixel ADC in CMOS sensor designs, which increases parallelism by another very significant degree, and allows ADC frequency to drop very considerably. 


I think Canon's problem is the use of lower parallelism, higher frequency ADC units. They only have 8x or 16x channels, depending on whether were talking single or dual DIGIC. Each channel has it's own off-die ADC. That is parallel, but very low parallelism. Compare it to having an ADC per column...if your column count is 5760, then you have 5760 ADC units. So, in the case of say the 5D III, each ADC unit has to operate fast enough to process ~16.6 million pixels per second. With column parallel ADC, they only need to operate fast enough to process 5760 pixels per second. In other words, you can reduce operating frequency by a factor of 2880x with CP-ADC. 


I think Canon's problem is the ADC units...the fact that they are low perallelism, off die, high frequency. To remedy that, I think they probably need to move to a newer fab...something capable of at least a 180nm process, so they can move all the ADC logic on-die. The use of more modern fabrication technology, such as metal interconnects, higher Q.E. photodiodes, etc. would all be a nice bonus, but I think the single biggest gain for Canon is moving to an on-die, hyper-parallel, integrated ADC system.


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## CanonOregon (Nov 3, 2014)

I don't think technology is the only driving force for Canon to look to control the sensors used in its cameras. About nine years ago there was a major recall on P&S cameras relating to a faulty adhesive used to hold the sensor in place. It was an 'eye opener' as to who was using their chips- Fuji, Canon, Nikon and more, something most of you know by now. (Story- http://www.imaging-resource.com/badccds.html) Move forward nine years and a number of tech companies are struggling- and Sony is one. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point some scenario where Sony spun off the sensor and camera tech to Nikon or vice versa, or something else to funnel resources into a more 'condensed' format came about. I think Sony and Nikon need each other more than Canon needs Sony. Sony's position would worry me if I was dependent on them too much for the future.
The Sony story is about the leader of technology for many years, almost a 'Lecia' of manufacturers that could sell products at a higher price point, for years now falling on hard times. Interesting walk through the 'museum of Sony' in this CNN story- http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/business/2014/10/31/pkg-ripley-future-of-sony.cnn.html


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## jrista (Nov 3, 2014)

Sony's sensor division is one of the few divisions on the company that is actually turning a profit. I don't see Sony unloading that any time soon, as it, along side their insurance division, is their cash cow. That will only become more true as Sony expands it's sensors into more and more markets (which they are doing...I think the majority of Sony sensor revenue comes from embedded devices, security video cameras, smartphones, specialty devices...a smaller portion comes from photography devices.) 


Sony is projecting massive revenue growth in their sensor business as well. This year alone they are saying 16% growth. Projections for next year are to continue that trend.


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## NancyP (Nov 3, 2014)

Neuroanatomist, for those of us who don't plan on spending 1DX money, the 7D2 looks like a pretty good action camera, whatever the DXO sensor score may end up being. In the real world, I will get a lot of use out of a camera and lens I can afford and that I can actually haul around and shoot hand-held. The 1DX should be better.


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## ahsanford (Nov 3, 2014)

NancyP said:


> Neuroanatomist, for those of us who don't plan on spending 1DX money, the 7D2 looks like a pretty good action camera, whatever the DXO sensor score may end up being. In the real world, I will get a lot of use out of a camera and lens I can afford and that I can actually haul around and shoot hand-held. The 1DX should be better.



I am not Neuro's publicist, but I think his emoticon-heavy putdown was aimed at DXO's scoring system and not the 7D2.

The 7D2 appears to be a stellar camera for the money. I'd get one for sure if I was into sports, wildlife, birding, etc. But as it stands, I don't shoot that sort of stuff, so the 16-200mm reach on my 5D3 suits me perfectly.

- A


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## lintoni (Nov 3, 2014)

NancyP said:


> Neuroanatomist, for those of us who don't plan on spending 1DX money, the 7D2 looks like a pretty good action camera, whatever the DXO sensor score may end up being. In the real world, I will get a lot of use out of a camera and lens I can afford and that I can actually haul around and shoot hand-held. The 1DX should be better.



He was being sarcastic, as he frequently is.


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## unfocused (Nov 4, 2014)

jrista said:


> Sony's sensor division is one of the few divisions on the company that is actually turning a profit. I don't see Sony unloading that any time soon, as it, along side their insurance division, is their cash cow...



It is very common for companies that are having financial problems to sell off profitable divisions. If they need to raise cash, it's a lot easier if you sell something that is making money, rather than something that is losing money.

Not saying that will happen with Sony, but I would never presume that just because a division is profitable it is safe from acquisition.


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## jrista (Nov 4, 2014)

unfocused said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Sony's sensor division is one of the few divisions on the company that is actually turning a profit. I don't see Sony unloading that any time soon, as it, along side their insurance division, is their cash cow...
> ...




Sure, I don't disagree. However, I think you read each company on a case-by-case basis. I could see, longer term, Sony letting all their other divisions fold, and sticking to sensors. It's got MASSIVE growth potential, not only in existing markets, but in numerous new markets as we find more and more ways, more and more places, to use sensors. Sony sensor technology is highly competitive, often the best available, and it just keeps getting better. I guess if they got a major price premium for the sensor business...but then, they would be right back to being this unprofitable electronics company with insurance holding everything up...seems like a lose lose to me.


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## sailingsilkeborg (Nov 4, 2014)

"Myself as well as Northlight both received emails disputing this claim..." 

Sorry to mix English with photography, but that use of "myself" doesn't help the message at all. Try "Northlight and I both received emails disputing this claim..."


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## Marauder (Nov 4, 2014)

Hopefully the rumour of Canon using coming to rely on Sony sensors is not true. It would be very bad news for Canon (and for photographers!) if they (Canon) surrender chip development to an external provider. It would be a colossal mistake--not one I think they'll make, but so many photography review sites are subscribing to "The Emperor's New Clothes" world that DXO Mark has fostered, that it is a concern. :-\


----------



## eml58 (Nov 4, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



jrista said:


> I'm sorry, but I'm far from the only person who was rather ticked off by Maeda's comments regarding their sensor technology. Even the interviewer was surprised by the response.



And there's the real issue perhaps, if the Guy at the Top has convinced himself that Canon are still the leaders in Sensor tech, then it's a lost cause until someone with a better grip on reality takes the wheel. Wether he's a "Bold faced liar" or simply being disingenuous, it's as jrista said, simply "sad".

And I'm reasonably sure Maeda San is quite capable of defending his honour & good name without members of CR attempting crucifixion of other CR members in his defence, especially when he's clearly lost the plot when it comes to Canon's current abilities to develop the cutting edge tech required for Canon to continue to be the Market Leaders.

And it's just as sad that I agree with most pundits regards Canon stooping to using Sony Sensors in their top of the line DSLR cameras, especially when Nikon does, Phase One does, Hasselblad does, Pentax does, Olympus does & even Apple does (I know, it's not a dslr it's a phone), but you get the picture.

And those companies having used Sony Sensors seems to have given those companies a leg up regards Camera Sales.

If Canon produced a 1D body with the current Sony 50MP sensor embedded, I & I hazard a guess, a huge amount of others would be on it like flies on ..... Honey, and the fact that it was a Sony designed sensor & not a Canon designed sensor wouldn't have an iota of consideration in my purchase nor I believe would most others care who made the sensor, just like I don't care who made the Camera strap.

And jrista, if at times your views appear to pee some disgruntled CR members of from time to time, just move on to the stuff I believe most of the non disgruntled CR members (the majority i feel) look forward to reading from you, your technical ability and knowledge, and don't worry about Maeda San, I'm reasonably sure in his position he's been called a lot worse than a "bold faced liar".


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## sanj (Nov 4, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



eml58 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry, but I'm far from the only person who was rather ticked off by Maeda's comments regarding their sensor technology. Even the interviewer was surprised by the response.
> ...



Yes Edward you are right. Jrista gets a lot of unnecessary rude comments.


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## expatinasia (Nov 4, 2014)

I personally believe that after having lived and worked in Japan, I think one has to be very careful reading between the lines of interviews done in English. Even taking the actual wording used is not always straightforward.

I love the country, the food, the people etc., but from my personal experience conducting interviews with them in English is very, very difficult.

And I am talking about big companies such as Canon etc.

So personally I would not read too much into what he said. 

Great marketing for Sony though!!


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 4, 2014)

vscd said:


> So, the (quite huge) difference on ISO 100 flips to an *advantage* of Canon-Sensors from ISO 800 and upwards. No one tells you this, but it's the opposite of what the forums are telling on and on and on (Hi Drones!). I even wonder why DXO makes no intersection between lo and high of the (unpushed) ISO-Modes.



???
Who has ever tried to hide that fact? And again how is 1/8th to 1/2 stop difference at high ISO a huge deal, but 2-3 stops at low ISO is never allowed to matter at all?



> Canon is traditionally an autofocus/sports aranged brand, I think. So, from their side the sentence "our sensors are the best" could be true, really.



That's not even true since in the early DSLR days the Nikon bodies had the worse sensors but better power specs for body performance.



> For portraits you may use the Nikon instead--- and hell, a real pro doesn't care about brands. If you shoot portraits you can get far better results with a Pentax 645, a cam not much more expensive than a D4s.



Why do you bring this up for studio portraits so much, since at least you can set your own lighting in that scenario.


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## Bennymiata (Nov 4, 2014)

There isn't a manufacturer anywhere in the world that makes every single part of ANY finished product it sells, so why shouldn't Canon use Sony, or Fuji, or Samsung or whoever's sensor, as long as it does the job required of it and the price and quality is OK?
As most of the compact cameras are sold on price, adding Canon's sales makes that 1" Sony sensor cheaper to make and I'm sure cheaper than Canon could make it for.


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## jd7 (Nov 4, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



eml58 said:


> And it's just as sad that I agree with most pundits regards Canon stooping to using Sony Sensors in their top of the line DSLR cameras, especially when Nikon does, Phase One does, Hasselblad does, Pentax does, Olympus does & even Apple does (I know, it's not a dslr it's a phone), but you get the picture.



Groan ... was that meant to be a pun?


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## Lawliet (Nov 4, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Why do you bring this up for studio portraits so much, since at least you can set your own lighting in that scenario.


Because of the other effects of the basic problem that causes the DR story. Remember that a Bayer-sensor has to derive color from a set of prefiltered luma values? Any noise automatically also causes color shifts; and the pattern noise those blotchy color patches. Now start with a sujet that has even tones thatare most suceptable to such problems and fine gradients that get killed by noise supression as a major trait - its easy to see why market shares shifted radically in recent times.


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## eml58 (Nov 4, 2014)

*Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony? *



jd7 said:


> eml58 said:
> 
> 
> > And it's just as sad that I agree with most pundits regards Canon stooping to using Sony Sensors in their top of the line DSLR cameras, especially when Nikon does, Phase One does, Hasselblad does, Pentax does, Olympus does & even Apple does (I know, it's not a dslr it's a phone), but you get the picture.
> ...



Unfortunately, Yes, my apologies :-*


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## roby17269 (Nov 4, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> vscd said:
> 
> 
> > So, the (quite huge) difference on ISO 100 flips to an *advantage* of Canon-Sensors from ISO 800 and upwards. No one tells you this, but it's the opposite of what the forums are telling on and on and on (Hi Drones!). I even wonder why DXO makes no intersection between lo and high of the (unpushed) ISO-Modes.
> ...



I guess the ones that keep "droning" (pun intended) on the advantages of high-ISO DR are the same kind of people that would say "no one shoots over 1600 ISO" if Canon was behind the competition on low-light photography. Same as Sony fans kept droning about the advantages of in-body stabilization only to gloss over it when Sony removed it from the (F)E mount.

I do not fully agree with you on the last point though. I shoot a lot in studio or under controlled lightning and I would still love more leeway in pushing shadows at 100 than what my 1D X offers. And more pixels.


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## RGF (Nov 4, 2014)

Marauder said:


> Hopefully the rumour of Canon using coming to rely on Sony sensors is not true. It would be very bad news for Canon (and for photographers!) if they (Canon) surrender chip development to an external provider. It would be a colossal mistake--not one I think they'll make, but so many photography review sites are subscribing to "The Emperor's New Clothes" world that DXO Mark has fostered, that it is a concern. :-\



total handover would be a mistake. But take advantage of a supplier's superior product would be of benefit for Canon. If they could match the D800/810 stellar DR in a 5D body would be great. While 36 MP would be nice, much stronger DR is much higher on my wish list.


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## jrista (Nov 4, 2014)

RGF said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > Hopefully the rumour of Canon using coming to rely on Sony sensors is not true. It would be very bad news for Canon (and for photographers!) if they (Canon) surrender chip development to an external provider. It would be a colossal mistake--not one I think they'll make, but so many photography review sites are subscribing to "The Emperor's New Clothes" world that DXO Mark has fostered, that it is a concern. :-\
> ...




It would result in a marketplace nearly totally dominated by one single manufacturer. That can only, in the end/in the long run, be bad for consumers. Canon is the 900 pound gorilla in the digital imaging space (as far as complete products and product lines go.) Caving to pressure from Sony, and giving up their own sensor line, may seem like the right move in the short run, but it would ultimately remove a (well, what should be) a key competitor in the sensor space. The best thing for consumers is for Canon to get off their lazy asses and COMPETE, in every aspect, in the sensor marketplace.


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## Lawliet (Nov 4, 2014)

jrista said:


> The best thing for consumers is for Canon to get off their lazy asses and COMPETE, in every aspect, in the sensor marketplace.



Either that, or taking the third option and source the sensors from one of the other manufactors - for example the STM one in the current Leica at least matches its Sony counterpart and considering STM's production capacity...


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## YuengLinger (Nov 4, 2014)

NEWS FLASH! MERCEDES TO CONTINUE USING MERCEDES ENGINES IN SEDANS!

:


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## donsullivan (Nov 5, 2014)

Canon would not have to give-up sensor development for good to make a tactical decision to go with the Sony sensor for a generation of cameras while they continue working on their own for the next generation. They have clearly hit a sticking point (or have simply decided it's good enough) with the evolution of their own technology and have not been moving things forward for some years now in the full from DSLR space.

Whether any individual photographers feels this make sense or not, you cannot deny that there is a significant transition underway of photographers spending their money to migrate to Nikon due to the lack of competitive high performance DSLR products from Canon. Whether they are looking for higher resolution (D810) or just better overall sensor performance (D810 or D750) there is a migration away from Canon underway. I'm among those who did it and I personally know of 5 others who've made the transition from Canon (5D3 & 1Dx) to Nikon (D800/D810/D610) in the last year for the very same reason. I learned of another yesterday who had been holding off on upgrading a 5D2 for 6+ months and finally got tired of waiting for Canon and ordered a D750 and the Canon gear is going up for sale.

The bottom line is that if they don't release something that these customers are willing to spend money on, they'll loose those customers to a competitor. And once those people make the switch away from Canon they won't be coming back any time soon. A platform transition is not something that most can afford to do on a whim and once they move it's a one-way street. It took me 6 months from when I started considering it to actually pull the trigger and I'm not going back any time soon.


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## privatebydesign (Nov 5, 2014)

donsullivan said:


> Canon would not have to give-up sensor development for good to make a tactical decision to go with the Sony sensor for a generation of cameras while they continue working on their own for the next generation. They have clearly hit a sticking point (or have simply decided it's good enough) with the evolution of their own technology and have not been moving things forward for some years now in the full from DSLR space.
> 
> Whether any individual photographers feels this make sense or not, you cannot deny that there is a significant transition underway of photographers spending their money to migrate to Nikon due to the lack of competitive high performance DSLR products from Canon. Whether they are looking for higher resolution (D810) or just better overall sensor performance (D810 or D750) there is a migration away from Canon underway. I'm among those who did it and I personally know of 5 others who've made the transition from Canon (5D3 & 1Dx) to Nikon (D800/D810/D610) in the last year for the very same reason. I learned of another yesterday who had been holding off on upgrading a 5D2 for 6+ months and finally got tired of waiting for Canon and ordered a D750 and the Canon gear is going up for sale.
> 
> The bottom line is that if they don't release something that these customers are willing to spend money on, they'll loose those customers to a competitor. And once those people make the switch away from Canon they won't be coming back any time soon. A platform transition is not something that most can afford to do on a whim and once they move it's a one-way street. It took me 6 months from when I started considering it to actually pull the trigger and I'm not going back any time soon.



Of course you can deny that, and sales numbers and comparative pricing structures back up the opinion that it simply isn't happening in the numbers you think. Sure there might be groups of converts, one way or the other, but if the 5D MkIII can hold its price at $100 more then the second 800 iteration I think you might have a skewed view. If sales of the 5D MkIII were down that badly the price would have dropped.

Now find me a single (pretty much) high school sports shooter who has a Nikon, sure there will be some, but a huge majority f them will be buying Canons, it depends where you look to see these moves.


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## jrista (Nov 5, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> donsullivan said:
> 
> 
> > Canon would not have to give-up sensor development for good to make a tactical decision to go with the Sony sensor for a generation of cameras while they continue working on their own for the next generation. They have clearly hit a sticking point (or have simply decided it's good enough) with the evolution of their own technology and have not been moving things forward for some years now in the full from DSLR space.
> ...




I think the ideal that the 5D III is still selling near it's peak is untrue. I picked up my 5D III for $2600. I've been watching sales by eBay sellers dropping 5D III's for as little as $2400, gray market or otherwise, sell dozens, even as many as a hundred, in a matter of days. These ebay sellers, and Canon refurb sales (which are also high...there are many items, like the 5D III, 6D or 2x and 1.4x TCs, that sell like hotcakes from Canon refurb), don't get counted on sites like canonpricewatch.com, which only account for sales of new bodies. New bodies themselves are advertised with the minimum advertising prices, however they too usually go for much less.


With the frequency of ebay sales the last six months or so, I'd say the average 5D III price is lower than the D810 price, possibly significantly lower.


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## lintoni (Nov 5, 2014)

jrista said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > donsullivan said:
> ...


And there's a moritorium on the sale of D810s on eBay??? I'm sorry, but you're trying too hard to make a pointless point.


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## Lawliet (Nov 5, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> Now find me a single (pretty much) high school sports shooter who has a Nikon, sure there will be some, but a huge majority f them will be buying Canons, it depends where you look to see these moves.



Look in the segements that can afford to change or keep additional systems w/o taking a mortgage - that demography is moving. Just talk with the folks at rental houses - for example despite higher numbers of AirTTL-Ns in the inventory as a Nikon user you might end up involuntarily using the standard remote; no such concerns w. Canon
Thats the dangerous part with sales figures, even if you get reliable ones - a single number to describe a complex situation, the same as with DXO's rating system.


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## ahsanford (Nov 5, 2014)

You folks realize that Nikon has dozens of disgruntled forum threads talking about switching to Canon, right?

For us, it's their sensors. For them, it's our lens portfolio, high burst rate photography, and video. For Sony, it's a desire to have a full stable of lenses without adapters, to have pro build quality, or to have a competent AF system (depending on your rig).

No one company offers the best tech at everything. The grass is always greener, but apparently it's never green enough to cause an exodus.

- A


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## jrista (Nov 5, 2014)

lintoni said:


> And there's a moritorium on the sale of D810s on eBay??? I'm sorry, but you're trying too hard to make a pointless point.




I never said anything like that. However how many massive ebay sales of the D810 at firesale prices have you seen? I've seen none, and I've been looking, trust me (I'm VERY interested in the D810 as an addition to my kit...if I can find it, and the 14-24mm, for the right price). I've seen the D810 go for around $2750-$3000 on ebay in final sales. I recently purchased the 5D III for $2600, and I was watching sales for months before I did, and have been watching them since. The 5D III frequently sells for ludicrous prices on a regular basis...however the moment it jumps back up to $2800, $3000, $3200, people stop buying.


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## lintoni (Nov 5, 2014)

jrista said:


> lintoni said:
> 
> 
> > And there's a moritorium on the sale of D810s on eBay??? I'm sorry, but you're trying too hard to make a pointless point.
> ...


Oh come on! All those eBay sellers have "firesales" to get rid of the 5D3 stock, that they just can't shift otherwise... and then restock the 5D3s that nobody wants, because that is the ideal way to run a business and make money?


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## jrista (Nov 5, 2014)

lintoni said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > lintoni said:
> ...




I don't know what your getting irate about. This community is really nuts. Seriously. WTF?  


Just look at what's happening. Watch the ebay sales...I've seen 60, 80 5D III's sell in less than 24 hours, sometimes less than 12 hours, when the price drops to around $2600 or less. Above that, and 5D III's don't move nearly as fast. Sure, they still move em, but you don't see a dozens move every hour. Same thing goes for Canon's refurb site. When they start up a sale, the 5D III's (and it's not just 5D III's, I've seen it happen with 6D's as well) start selling like hotcakes...then the sale ends, and the sales rate drops to a trickle. Much the same happens for certain Nikon models...I haven't seen it happen with the D810 (probably still too new)...I have seen it happen with the D600/610, though. Hotcakes, when the price is right. I've considered grabbing a D610 when it hits firesale prices...it's not 36mp, but it has all the rest of the goodies, including the IQ...for an even better price (and still higher resolution/better low ISO IQ than the 5D III.) 


People have become accustomed to the 5D III selling at really great prices. They know it happens on a fairly frequent, semi-periodic basis. So they hold out. I certainly did. I wasn't about to spend $3400 on a 5D III when I knew in a couple/few weeks time it would drop back down to around $2600 again. I bided my time, had all my notifications set up, and was able to snatch one up the next time one of those hot sales came around. Why would I, or anyone else, do anything else? You can save a HUGE amount of money that way, I think I saved nearly $800 over the list/MAP price. Sure, some people are still buying them at higher prices, but when the stock REALLY MOVES...it's at prices well below $3000, usually below $2800, and they sell in swarms when the price hits $2600 or below. (And again, keep in mind, these are not always US/CA market...a lot of the time, they are gray market, so I suspect that the sellers are still making good money even at the low prices...selling 60 or more of an item at a lower profit margin still means more profit than if you sell a handful at a higher profit margin.)


It's just an observation. Anything else, and your not reading what I'm writing, and your getting irate over assumptions you've made about things I haven't said.


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## lintoni (Nov 5, 2014)

xps said:


> http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/copernican-revolution-next-canon-dslr-to-use-sony-foveon-alike-sensors/
> 
> Maybe Canon engeneers get a little bit wiser....
> 
> I would have no problem, if Canon uses Sony sensors and parts from Pentax or other brands, if the Camera will be an superb one. >22MP , Good IQ, better DR, fast and accurate AF,....


Look at the first page of this thread...


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## xps (Nov 5, 2014)

The good thing for Canon is, that other - more innovative - brands do lack in lenses or other additional equipment, an (semi)professional or entusiast will want to have. 
So, just a few persons will move to Sony (e.g.), as there are essential lenses missing.

But when sony builts up the lens line, Canon will have to hurry on.


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## jrista (Nov 6, 2014)

xps said:


> The good thing for Canon is, that other - more innovative - brands do lack in lenses or other additional equipment, an (semi)professional or entusiast will want to have.
> So, just a few persons will move to Sony (e.g.), as there are essential lenses missing.
> 
> But when sony builts up the lens line, Canon will have to hurry on.




I think the same goes for Samsung. The NX1 is impressive, specs wise. They lack the lenses, however there are already some images on the net about Samsung's forthcoming 300mm f/2.8 lens that looks very similar (in terms of size and functionality) to Canon's great white lenses. Only time will tell if it has the IQ, but I for one am very intrigued about a 15fps BSI APS-C camera with a high quality 300mm lens (especially if they eventually release TCs for it.)


So far, I like the sound of the NX1 more than I like the sound of pretty much any A7 series camera (although I'm very impressed by the overall high and low ISO IQ of the A7s.) Once these "alternative" brands get their own lenses for the real critical key ones, like your 70-200's, a few large fast primes (300/2.8, 400/2.8, 600/4), and a few high quality wide, normal, and short tele primes (for which Sony already has a few good ones), I think the market will really open up, with better viable diversity.


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## donsullivan (Nov 7, 2014)

I spoke with 2 more Canon shooters on the west coast today (5D2 & 5D3) who have both decided to dump their Canon gear and jump over to Nikon D750's. One of them (like myself) had tried a Sony a7R for a while and was also unhappy with all of the compromises that came along with that. 

While not a mass exodus of all types of shooters, there is without doubt an exodus from Canon (most commonly to Nikon) because Canon has pretty much stagnated in the Full Frame DSLR space for pretty close to 3 years now. If choosing a competitors sensor would help them to get back in the game, that would not in and of itself be a bad thing.

80% of the photographers I know who 2 years ago were shooting Canon have already given up on Canon and moved on. Every one of these folks were shooting full frame and most with multiple bodies and a huge investment in L Series Glass. They were all ready to move their capabilities forward and Canon simply had nothing to offer and they lost the sense that there was actually anything real on the horizon. These are the type of folks that were pre-ordering things like 5D3 the day it was announced. Canon has lost all of them and they are not coming back any time soon. The longer this exodus continues, the less demand there will be for full-frame Canon gear in the future if they ever do introduce something.

You can come up with scenarios and photographer types with this isn't happening like sports and I'll agree with you. However there is an exodus happening of people who can afford the transition (and some for whom it's a challenge) and it's not going to stop any time soon unless Canon actually releases something that interests these folks.


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## ITshooter (Nov 7, 2014)

donsullivan said:


> I spoke with 2 more Canon shooters on the west coast today (5D2 & 5D3) who have both decided to dump their Canon gear and jump over to Nikon D750's. One of them (like myself) had tried a Sony a7R for a while and was also unhappy with all of the compromises that came along with that.
> 
> While not a mass exodus of all types of shooters, there is without doubt an exodus from Canon (most commonly to Nikon) because Canon has pretty much stagnated in the Full Frame DSLR space for pretty close to 3 years now. If choosing a competitors sensor would help them to get back in the game, that would not in and of itself be a bad thing.
> 
> ...



I think there are some market share losses, but in my experience, I still see way more Canon than anything else. I shoot at a lot of press events for big companies and a lot of trade shows, and Canon easily accounts for two-thirds, if not closer to three-quarters, of the cameras I see overall. It varies by event, of course, but out of dozens in the last couple years, I can't recall any event in which Canons weren't at least half the field. 

What's very interesting to me is this-- the video scene at these events is still dominated by Canon. I've noticed a few internal PR teams have switched to Nikon gear, and last year at CES, Black Magic cameras had a small but noticeable presence. As someone who will be fairly outraged if the 5D Mark IV (or some other 2015 $2000 - $4000 Canon DSLR) doesn't have a great 1080p implementation and a decent internal 4K implementation, I find Canon's resilience in this market interesting. I used to see more Sonys (e.g. FS100s) among the people who weren't using Canon DSLRs for video; now, I see more C100 and C300 bodies in this group. That said, most of the Canon bodies I see are at least a few years old-- i.e. lots of 5D Mark IIIs, some C100s, even a few t3is and 60Ds. Not seeing any 70Ds yet and it's still too early to have expected a 7D Mark II sighting-- but the reason I bring up the prevalence of older models is this: When I do see photo/video combos that aren't Canon, they're usually micro four thirds, not Sony. This is all anecdotal, of course-- but since we're talking about demographics in which Canon is retaining users, I thought I'd add another set of observations.


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## donsullivan (Nov 7, 2014)

ITshooter said:


> I think there are some market share losses, but in my experience, I still see way more Canon than anything else. I shoot at a lot of press events for big companies and a lot of trade shows, and Canon easily accounts for two-thirds, if not closer to three-quarters, of the cameras I see overall. It varies by event, of course, but out of dozens in the last couple years, I can't recall any event in which Canons weren't at least half the field.
> 
> What's very interesting to me is this-- the video scene at these events is still dominated by Canon. I've noticed a few internal PR teams have switched to Nikon gear, and last year at CES, Black Magic cameras had a small but noticeable presence. As someone who will be fairly outraged if the 5D Mark IV (or some other 2015 $2000 - $4000 Canon DSLR) doesn't have a great 1080p implementation and a decent internal 4K implementation, I find Canon's resilience in this market interesting. I used to see more Sonys (e.g. FS100s) among the people who weren't using Canon DSLRs for video; now, I see more C100 and C300 bodies in this group. That said, most of the Canon bodies I see are at least a few years old-- i.e. lots of 5D Mark IIIs, some C100s, even a few t3is and 60Ds. Not seeing any 70Ds yet and it's still too early to have expected a 7D Mark II sighting-- but the reason I bring up the prevalence of older models is this: When I do see photo/video combos that aren't Canon, they're usually micro four thirds, not Sony. This is all anecdotal, of course-- but since we're talking about demographics in which Canon is retaining users, I thought I'd add another set of observations.



I think whether you see a market transition very much depends on the type of shooting you do and correspondingly the type of shooters you are around. What I encounter is in a space best described as travel and landscape, areas where DR and resolution are extremely important. Nearly everyone I see in that space is abandoning Canon and most have headed to Nikon.

Canon has put a great deal of emphasis on the video space over the last few years following the positive response to the video capabilities of the 5D2. It seems that they see that as there play for growth vs the FF still shooter. We've seen a lot of movement on the APS-C gear as well as in the video space but pretty much nothing in the FF still space for nearly 3 years. For those who say 'what about the 6D', I've always thought of that as not much more than a repackaged 5D2.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 7, 2014)

donsullivan said:


> ...Canon has pretty much stagnated in the Full Frame DSLR space for pretty close to 3 years now.



As opposed to Nikon, who has released three new FF bodies in that period to fix problems with their predecessors – the D610 (D600 oil spots and banned for sale in the world's most populous country), the D810 (unify D800/E production lines to save internal costs due to loss of corporate revenue), and the D750 (because neither the D610 nor the D810 were bona fide competitors to the very successful 5DIII and 6D).


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## dak723 (Nov 8, 2014)

Canon to continue using Canon sensors?

Fine with me. I haven't had the luxury to use any Nikon or Sony cameras with the new sensors that everyone is raving about, so I can't make any type of comparison. But starting with the Original Rebel, and now with a 6D, I am very happy with the IQ of my shots. I would say Canon does an excellent job with color accuracy, color gradation and contrast. Their cameras also do very well with exposure accuracy. So, no complaints with the things I would consider most important.

And, oh by the way, I shoot mostly landscapes.


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## ahsanford (Nov 8, 2014)

jrista said:


> Once these "alternative" brands get their own lenses for the real critical key ones, like your 70-200's, a few large fast primes (300/2.8, 400/2.8, 600/4), and a few high quality wide, normal, and short tele primes (for which Sony already has a few good ones), I think the market will really open up, with better viable diversity.



I'm on the fence there, Jrista. _If the lenses come_, you are dead on. 

Committing to (or at least prioritizing) one mount for 25+ years continues to pay dividends for Canon. They have developed a lens portfolio that no one can comprehensively match up to. I'm not saying all the lenses are modern or best in class -- they surely aren't -- but chance are, if you need a specific sort of lens, Canon has one. 

So for someone to try to match even 25% of what Canon offers would represent a staggering investment in present/future development dollars. And *what* 25% needs to be made available is not a sure thing. A company could go hog wild and offer a solid roster of 'staple pro wants' (in FF equiv)...

16-35 f/2.8
24-70 f/2.8
70-200 f/2.8
35 f/1.4
50 f/1.4
85 f/1.4
100 macro
135 f/2.0
70-300 or 100-400 f/slow
300 f/2.8
400 f/2.8
600 f/4

...and folks would _still_ find something to bemoan the lack of: a tilt-shift, a lighter weight F/4 zoom, a fish, cheaper wildlife primes, etc. As Canon people, we often can feel the sensor grass is greener elsewhere, but _everyone_ pines for access to our glass (save perhaps the Leica crowd, who only need a few primes and a cocksure worldview ).

I want your competitive future as increased choice will only bode well for us as consumers. But I'm not convinced every rival to the Canon/Nikon dominated SLR world is prepared to or is capable of delivering that lens portfolio. Sony is certainly _trying_, but Samsung, Fuji and the m43 cabal seem worlds behind in the scale of their ambitions. So I'll stick the mothership for the foreseeable future.

- A


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## jrista (Nov 8, 2014)

One thing to keep in mind...mirrorless cameras have much shorter flange focal distances. Canon's lens lineup is one of the primary reasons I stick with the brand. I love the diversity and the quality. I don't think I could give up my 600mm f/4 II for anything...it's the most versatile,valuable lens in my kit...I use it day and night (literally...it's also my telescope for astrophotography). I also like the MP-E 65mm, the high quality TS lenses, the zoom fisheye, etc. 


Thing is...I could use every single one of those on both the A7 series or the NX1 bodies. All I need is an adapter. AF performance doesn't necessarily maintain high levels when you adapt a lens, however the MetaBones adapters for Sony's E mount have been getting progressively better over the last year or two...they are currently on the Mark IV version, and I suspect a Mark V is not that far off in the future. I believe the NX1 already has adapters.


So, if I did end up picking up an NX1, I wouldn't necessarily be wanting for a good TS lens. I could just use Canon's. The TS lenses and the MP-E are all manual focus lenses as well, so AF performance isn't a concern to start with. Canon's wide range of unique lenses are, therefor, eminently usable on any existing mirrorless that has an EF adapter (which most do.) I've used Canon AF lenses on the A7s. AF performance isn't excellent, but AF does work well enough. In the cases where AF performance was critical with say the NX1, I could just pick up a Samsung lens instead. 


I also strongly believe that all the lenses you listed with maybe the exception of the 600/4 will find their way into competitors lens bodies fairly quickly. Those are all the staples, the key core lenses. Every brand should have those at some point, and in many cases, they already do.


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## D. (Nov 9, 2014)

Thom Hogan put together what I consider to be a well-considered discussion of Canon sensors vs. Sony/Nikon sensors and DXO scores generally. Many of his points mirror what people on this forum have previously stated. Thom is a Nikon guy, albeit a critical one, but definitely not a Canon fan boy. See the article at http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/do-you-believe-in-dxomark.html


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 9, 2014)

D. said:


> Thom Hogan put together what I consider to be a well-considered discussion of Canon sensors vs. Sony/Nikon sensors and DXO scores generally. Many of his points mirror what people on this forum have previously stated.



Thanks for sharing.

To be fair, his views mirror statements by _some_ members of this forum, which have been vehemently argued against by others. For example (emphasis is mine):

[quote author=Thom Hogan]
So, for example, the 7DII has a landscape dynamic range of 11.8EV, the D7100 a range of 13.7EV. Before moving on, I should note that these aren’t exactly what you’d get out of the camera in images (e.g. 12 stops of data on the 7DII, 14 on the D7100). *DxOMark’s numbers are closer to engineering DR than usable dynamic range*, even with their adjustments for “print” and “screen." Engineering DR is measured between the lowest value that hits a signal-to-noise ratio of 1:1 (*which we’d never use*) and the highest saturation value of the sensor. Pragmatic DR has no agreed upon definition. When I report dynamic range numbers, as I do in my books, these are based upon my own personal standards, which have some fairly strict observed guidelines towards visibility of noise of any kind. 
[/quote]

We've had the 'engineering DR is the only DR measure that's real and has any relevance to photography' mantra spouted by some people here for quite some time. Interesting that someone well known in the field – and definitely not a 'Canon fanboy' – disagrees.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 9, 2014)

donsullivan said:


> ITshooter said:
> 
> 
> > I think there are some market share losses, but in my experience, I still see way more Canon than anything else. I shoot at a lot of press events for big companies and a lot of trade shows, and Canon easily accounts for two-thirds, if not closer to three-quarters, of the cameras I see overall. It varies by event, of course, but out of dozens in the last couple years, I can't recall any event in which Canons weren't at least half the field.
> ...



The video people seem to think Canon has now stagnated in video even more than the landscape high DR folks actually.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 9, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> donsullivan said:
> 
> 
> > ...Canon has pretty much stagnated in the Full Frame DSLR space for pretty close to 3 years now.
> ...



lefit



> the D810 (unify D800/E production lines to save internal costs due to loss of corporate revenue), and the D750 (because neither the D610 nor the D810 were bona fide competitors to the very successful 5DIII and 6D).



wow, that is reaching beyond reaching, good grief


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 9, 2014)

dak723 said:


> Canon to continue using Canon sensors?
> 
> Fine with me. I haven't had the luxury to use any Nikon or Sony cameras with the new sensors that everyone is raving about, so I can't make any type of comparison. But starting with the Original Rebel, and now with a 6D, I am very happy with the IQ of my shots. I would say Canon does an excellent job with color accuracy, color gradation and contrast. Their cameras also do very well with exposure accuracy. So, no complaints with the things I would consider most important.
> 
> And, oh by the way, I shoot mostly landscapes.



All the same they are 2-3 stops behind on contrast and their color discrimination has faded over the years (although the latter is a tricky, complex thing to dive into).


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## privatebydesign (Nov 9, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> dak723 said:
> 
> 
> > Canon to continue using Canon sensors?
> ...


Talk about reaching, what in the hell is _"their color discrimination has faded over the years"_ supposed to mean, that the cameras they made got worse, or others now do better? And by what measure do you consider Canon cameras to deliver poor colour? Because when I profile mine I have absolutely zero issues with colour.


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## jrista (Nov 9, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > the D810 (unify D800/E production lines to save internal costs due to loss of corporate revenue), and the D750 (because neither the D610 nor the D810 were bona fide competitors to the very successful 5DIII and 6D).
> ...




Agreed. I don't think that Nikon's problem has ever been their technology. Nikon too often exhibits schizophrenia, in their product naming scheme (which, at this point, who knows what the next model will be), in many of their management choices (Df? Gold plated cameras? Lots and lots of niche items that don't sell much, but still cost to R&D), and refusal to acknowledge issues and resolve them in a timely manner.


Canon has had their fair share of problems. Does no one remember the AF debacle of the 1D III? I think Canon refused to acknowledge that issue, for a long time, it pissed a lot of pros off. If the D810 is the "technological fix" for the broken D800/E, then the 1D IV is the technological fix for the 1D III (only it came MUCH later, and LONG after a lot of photographers were well and thoroughly irate, than the D810 came to the D800).


I think Nikon has perfectly good products. I think they just don't manage as well as Canon does on as regular a basis.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 9, 2014)

D. said:


> Thom Hogan put together what I consider to be a well-considered discussion of Canon sensors vs. Sony/Nikon sensors and DXO scores generally. Many of his points mirror what people on this forum have previously stated. Thom is a Nikon guy, albeit a critical one, but definitely not a Canon fan boy. See the article at http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/do-you-believe-in-dxomark.html



I think he downplays the low ISO DR a bit too much.

And I have to totally disagree with " However I’d point out that neither camera is likely to be able to hold extreme landscape situations in a single exposure: I’d still be bracketing and applying HDR type techniques to construct images in such cases. Thus, whatever the actual numeric difference in dynamic range between the 7DII and D7100 is at base ISO, it really wouldn’t make much of a difference to my workflow. I might adjust my bracket sets on the Canon to be a bit different than the Nikon to account for the difference in how they handle shadows, but that’s it. Bottom line, I’d get the same image."

I often find just another 2-3 stops would allow a one shot snap and that is pretty big.

The other stuff about ignoring the overall scores and looking at the plots is, as you say, what most of us have been saying for ages. The overall score is impossible to construct in a way that would be sensible for everyone and likely even for anyone. The D300s vs 7D2 score is one of the best (or maybe worst) examples. It gives a very, very distorted impression. The 7D2 also has a ton more MP which gives a lot more reach which is a main point for using APS-C for many. I'd dare say even the 7D might be the overall preferred sensor for wildlife over the D300s sensor never mind the 7D2 sensor. (Of course there is no doubt, other than for the few who prioritize the, somewhat crippled version, of DPAF video AF, that had they used a SOny APS_C sensor from today that the 7D2 would not have been better. The Sony aps-c sensor of today is definitely better than the one in the 7D2 at lower ISO if you ever hit any higher DR scenarios and it's even slightly better at moderate high ISO.)


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 9, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> D. said:
> 
> 
> > Thom Hogan put together what I consider to be a well-considered discussion of Canon sensors vs. Sony/Nikon sensors and DXO scores generally. Many of his points mirror what people on this forum have previously stated.
> ...



We've had the 'engineering DR is the only DR measure that's real and has any relevance to photography' mantra spouted by some people here for quite some time. Interesting that someone well known in the field – and definitely not a 'Canon fanboy' – disagrees.
[/quote]

Actually we have no been saying that it gives you the usable DR, it's just a relative comparison point and Hogan went on to say that the difference in the exmor vs canon actually IS there that much (although he claims to not have it be enough for many of his shots, I totally do not find that to the case though, 2-3 stops makes all the difference in a ton more shots from what I see).


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 9, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > dak723 said:
> ...



I mean the CFA filters have become more and more color blind and the metamerism scores have become worse, same is true for many DSLRs these days. It's a very complex to get into what that means exactly as it may mean something under some color tempertures of light and nothing under others and something for certain parts of the color spectrum and nothing or even better for colors in another part of the spectrum.


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## privatebydesign (Nov 9, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



And where, exactly, do you think that impacts 99.99999% of people, ever? I shoot colour critical artwork for magazines and books and never have metamerism issues of any consequence, I also make prints that are hung in every kind of light. Metamerism used to be a serious issue with some ink sets and certain lighting conditions.

Now you can get all esoteric on a metric, you can say we 'don't understand', and 'it is very complicated' etc etc, but if people are not seeing it, and it doesn't impact their images, it is too esoteric to bother about in my book.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 9, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Actually we have no been saying that it gives you the usable DR,



Perhaps you haven't, but others have. Saying it over and over and over. You know what it's called when something is said over and over and over, right? :


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## privatebydesign (Nov 9, 2014)

jrista said:


> Canon has had their fair share of problems. Does no one remember the AF debacle of the 1D III? I think Canon refused to acknowledge that issue, for a long time, it pissed a lot of pros off.



That was because there wasn't a pro on the planet who could reproduce the issue reliably under test conditions. It isn't difficult to see three tons of crap on your sensor, which is why the D600 was banned from sale in China, unfortunately it proved impossible for anybody to reliably re produce the 1D MkIII focus issues, and however bad that camera was, or is, I am still using them, though not for white shirted sports players play in 75º+ clear weather when they are running towards me.

Context.


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## dgatwood (Nov 10, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Actually we have no been saying that it gives you the usable DR,
> ...



If I remember my politics correctly, it's called a "fact".


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