# Canon Releases Q3 2015 Results



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 27, 2015)

```
<ul>
<li>Q3 operating profit falls 21 pct to 71.8 bln yen</li>
<li>Steep fall had been flagged by Nikkei business daily</li>
<li>Investments in new businesses also weighed on profit</li>
<li>Full-year earnings forecast lifted on weaker yen</li>
</ul>
<p>By Sophie Knight</p>
<p><strong>TOKYO, Oct 27 (Reuters)</strong> – Japan’s Canon Inc said quarterly operating profit fell by a fifth as demand for digital cameras slumped and it spent more on developing new businesses, but it nudged up its full-year earnings estimates on a sharply weaker yen.</p>
<p>The consumer shift to smartphones for casual photo taking has pummelled demand for compact cameras, while the growing popularity of lighter mirrorless cameras has taken away market share from higher margin single-lens reflex cameras.</p>
<p>Operating profit for the July-September quarter came in at 71.8 billion yen ($665 million), not far off figures flagged by the Nikkei business daily earlier this month.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/27/canon-results-idUSL4N0SM25K20141027" target="_blank">Read More…</a></p>
```


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## luminaeus (Oct 27, 2015)

Dilbert,

"It now expects 370 billion yen for the year to end December, up from a prior prediction of 365 billion yen and a 9.7 percent increase on the previous year."

I wouldn't worry too much about Canon.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 27, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> ...while the growing popularity of lighter mirrorless cameras has taken away market share from higher margin single-lens reflex cameras.



This statement by a Reuters writer does not seem well-supported by the CIPA data. In 2014, dSLRs outsold MILCs by 3.2-fold units, 3.4-fold revenue. In Jan-Aug 2015, dSLRs outsold MILCs by 3.1-fold units, 3.2-fold revenue. That doesn't seem like significant growth in MILC popularity or loss in market share for dSLRs.


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## unfocused (Oct 27, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > ...while the growing popularity of lighter mirrorless cameras has taken away market share from higher margin single-lens reflex cameras.
> ...



Quit letting the facts get in the way of a good story. Don't you know Canon is *******?


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 27, 2015)

Sorry, my bad. I can't wait for the liquidation sale!


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## YuengLinger (Oct 27, 2015)

It ain't only Canon!

From yesterday's Wall Street Journal:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-companies-warn-of-slowing-economy-1445818298


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## cbphoto (Oct 27, 2015)

I, for one, would love to see a Canon smartphone. Lotsa possibilities to interface with their gear.


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## Talley (Oct 27, 2015)

Guys.... of course canon is slow right now. They are nearing the end of their aging FF camera cycle.

You watch. The release of the 5D4, 1DxII will respark sales and produce profits. 

I understand that the cropper/rebel cameras make up most of the market for Canon but I suspect 2016 to be a bigger year for Canon.


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## PureClassA (Oct 27, 2015)

Economies across the globe slowed significantly this year, so looking at Canon by itself is not giving the entire story. We would need numbers from Nikon and Sony to see if they also showed similar results in camera sales, which I suspect they did. Sony may prove to be an outlier only because a year ago they didn't have the breadth of product offers they do now. Again, that wouldn't necessarily indicate any growth they enjoyed was at the direct expense of competitors. Sony is more likely to gain the majority of its ground (if any) by attracting NEW people who otherwise would use iPhones vs. stealing away seasoned/Pro level DSLR users. Again, just a variety of educated guesses.


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## unfocused (Oct 27, 2015)

Both Sony and Canon seem to have defined paths for themselves.

Sony seems to be on a path to dominate the imaging sensor market, hence the decision to create their Sony Semiconductor Solutions division. 

No one should be under the illusion that cameras are anything more to Sony than a means to grab a little extra profit. If they were to get into a position where their camera division threatened their ability to market sensors to the rest of the industry, they'd exit the camera market in a minute, most likely by selling it off. 

Canon will never exit the camera market, as it's a core business for them. But they are clearly looking to expand their reach into related industries -- such as security. They've weathered past downturns by relying on diversification. When the worldwide recession hit in the late 2000s, profits from their camera division helped prop up the business equipment division. Lately, their business products have been helping support the imaging division. 

So, both companies seem to have a clear strategy for dealing with contraction of the digital camera market. I'm less familiar and have seen less coverage of Nikon, but I imagine they might be putting more emphasis on their optics division in the future. Their firearms scopes have been the subject of some negative publicity in the past, but they are apparently an industry leader in that area, and I know their binoculars are extremely popular among birders. Nikon doesn't strike me as a company that is as growth-oriented as Canon and Sony. But, rather seems content to rely on their solid customer base remaining a loyal source of revenue for the foreseeable future. 

Just my opinion, others may have better understanding for information.


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## CanonGuy (Oct 27, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Economies across the globe slowed significantly this year, so looking at Canon by itself is not giving the entire story. We would need numbers from Nikon and Sony to see if they also showed similar results in camera sales, which I suspect they did. Sony may prove to be an outlier only because a year ago they didn't have the breadth of product offers they do now. Again, that wouldn't necessarily indicate any growth they enjoyed was at the direct expense of competitors. Sony is more likely to gain the majority of its ground (if any) by attracting NEW people who otherwise would use iPhones vs. stealing away seasoned/Pro level DSLR users. Again, just a variety of educated guesses.



Surprisingly, a few of my fellow photographers (who were/still are canon user) picked up A7r ii while I haven't seen a single iphone user with sony cameras in hand (I shoot 25+ weddings each year, so yes I meet a lot of people and fellow photographers)! 

Whilst sony is not yet matured enough for wedding photographers to jump ship fully, I'm seeing more and more photographers with a mirrorless FF sony body alongside to their canon body! Deny it as much as you want, it's happening. I'm waiting till 5d4 is announced, if it's not upto my expectation, my next pro body will not be a canon either. 

I hope canon is listening. and happy clicking everyone.


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## that1guyy (Oct 27, 2015)

Cannot say I'm surprised. I wonder if they will actually face a loss before they decide to create some good products.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 27, 2015)

The slow down is very predictable, buyers are not shelling out big bucks for cameras. Cameras are over priced in todays market. 

Canon is in a good position to lower prices and still make a profit due to their manufacturing processes being efficient. Still, there is a lot of cost that can be squeezed out of their processes. In house sensor production is likely costly, so they are looking at outside sources or production of sensors. They may very well continue R&D and design of sensors in house, but go to third parties for actual production. Just buying from Sony, or even buying Sony(Unlikely) might be a alternative.

Japan is going thru a labor crisis. There are not enough workers available to meet manufacturing needs. That's why companies move some production offshore, or to the US. Canon needs to take another look at their business model. That's hard to do, a new CEO who is a outsider and ruthless about cutting out fat would do wonders.


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## Efka76 (Oct 27, 2015)

I do not think that Canon is *******, however, its position is not as strong as it was before. Of course, next year, when 5D Mark IV and 1DxII are introduced there should be a significant increase in Canon's sales and profits. Currently many loyal customers (loyalty is dependant on acquired number of Canon's lenses) are waiting for these cameras. Others ar buying 5DIII or 1Dx for very good price (but this results in lower Canon's margins).

Still I do not understand why FF cameras are so expensive. The 2 main components - sensor and processor should not be so costly due to amortised R&D costs. Currently it is possible to buy very very good laptop for 1500 EUR but you will not buy a good camera for that. I think that camera producers are still working in oligopoly conditions and have a significant possibilities to reduce costs and prices for their production. Sigma and Tamron practically overcoming Canon's lenses sales as they are able to produce very high quality lenses for 2x or even 3x less price. I am waiting when this will happen in camera business when Fuji, Sony or other company will significantly drop prices for cameras. CaNikon will have to follow....

Also, I am surprised that Canon is not making significant investments in mirrorless camera business. They already lost that opportunity. In the nearest future (2-4 years) mirrorless will become more and more sophisticated and will eat significant market share of traditional DSLR cameras. For exampl, introduction of Sony A7RII quite significantly shaked the whole market. Sony A7RIII or A7RIV will become very serious competitor for Canon and Nikon.


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## unfocused (Oct 27, 2015)

Efka76 said:


> ...I do not understand why FF cameras are so expensive...Currently it is possible to buy very very good laptop for 1500 EUR but you will not buy a good camera for that.



I know that Europe is an anomaly in terms of camera pricing, but is the difference that great? And, is it the fault of camera manufacturers, or it it the result of other factors?

In the U.S. you can currently buy a 6D from an authorized dealer for $1,200 street price, which is about half what full frame cameras sold for just a few years ago. As far as a "good" camera goes, every DSLR made is good and the least expensive sell for under $500. If you want "very good" the 70D is $1,000 from authorized dealers and the incredible 7D II (mini 1Dx) is $1,350 street price from authorized dealer.



Efka76 said:


> Also, I am surprised that Canon is not making significant investments in mirrorless camera business. They already lost that opportunity.



How, exactly, have they lost that opportunity? Mirrorless sales still amount to a small fraction of total camera sales and Canon is more than capable of getting into the market whenever they choose. Judging by the comments on this forum, most mirrorless buyers are keeping their Canon lenses. If Canon sees mirrorless as a threat and an opportunity, they have the resources to get into the market and dominate.


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## canonic (Oct 27, 2015)

unfocused said:


> Canon is more than capable of getting into the market whenever they choose.


Rather, they are less capable and they can not choose ...



unfocused said:


> If Canon sees mirrorless as a threat and an opportunity, they have the resources to get into the market and dominate.


It Canon dont see this as a threat and/or opportunity, Canon is stupid!


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## AvTvM (Oct 27, 2015)

Hehe! So my purchasing decisions are showing first effects! Have not bought new Canon stuff for more than a year now. And obviously it's not just me ... Canon does not make what i want, so I don't buy. As simple as that. No fully competitive, kick ass mirrorless APS-C body (EOS M). Even less a fully competitive kick-ass FF mirrorless system (bodies + lenses). Only minor iterations of low-DR sensored mirrorslappers? ... hasta la vista, baby!


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 27, 2015)

unfocused said:


> ...Canon is more than capable of getting into the market whenever they choose. Judging by the comments on this forum, most mirrorless buyers are keeping their Canon lenses. If Canon sees mirrorless as a threat and an opportunity, they have the resources to get into the market and dominate.



+1

Consider that with a pretty limited investment (basically one current body and four lenses), Canon was 4th in market share last year, and has had the #2 best selling MILC in Japan.


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## luminaeus (Oct 28, 2015)

that1guyy said:


> Cannot say I'm surprised. I wonder if they will actually face a loss before they decide to create some good products.



How good do cameras have to be before you can take a decent photo?


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## eninja (Oct 28, 2015)

Efka76 said:


> I do not think that Canon is *******, however, its position is not as strong as it was before. Of course, next year, when 5D Mark IV and 1DxII are introduced there should be a significant increase in Canon's sales and profits. Currently many loyal customers (loyalty is dependant on acquired number of Canon's lenses) are waiting for these cameras. Others ar buying 5DIII or 1Dx for very good price (but this results in lower Canon's margins).
> 
> Still I do not understand why FF cameras are so expensive. The 2 main components - sensor and processor should not be so costly due to amortised R&D costs. Currently it is possible to buy very very good laptop for 1500 EUR but you will not buy a good camera for that. I think that camera producers are still working in oligopoly conditions and have a significant possibilities to reduce costs and prices for their production. Sigma and Tamron practically overcoming Canon's lenses sales as they are able to produce very high quality lenses for 2x or even 3x less price. I am waiting when this will happen in camera business when Fuji, Sony or other company will significantly drop prices for cameras. CaNikon will have to follow....
> 
> Also, I am surprised that Canon is not making significant investments in mirrorless camera business. They already lost that opportunity. In the nearest future (2-4 years) mirrorless will become more and more sophisticated and will eat significant market share of traditional DSLR cameras. For exampl, introduction of Sony A7RII quite significantly shaked the whole market. Sony A7RIII or A7RIV will become very serious competitor for Canon and Nikon.



Hi, clearly you dont speak from business point of view, if you did, you would understand. Can are able to predict with great accuracy than anyone else regarding the number of people will buy their FF cameras. They will work on it in such a way they will profit.

Regarding lens price, they know which market they are targeting, why would they sell for less if people will buy for more. Again they target different market.

And how do you know Canon is not working on mirrorless dslr? its a different story when you say they are not working, and they ate not releasing. If you ask me, J wont release ace cards until needed.


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## distant.star (Oct 28, 2015)

.
Canon made more money that I did in that quarter. Actually mine was a ().


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## unfocused (Oct 28, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> Hehe! My puchasing decisions are showing first effects! Have not bought new Canon stuff for more than a year now...



Glad to see you have a sense of humor. Sony must be ready to declare bankruptcy from all the Sony cameras and lenses I have not bought.


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## sanj (Oct 28, 2015)

It would be interesting academic study on how much money Sony/Fuji made with their interesting mirrorless cameras. It would not be huge (comparitively speaking) but am sure it is substancial. Substancial money that Canon did not make. 
I understand economy going down etc but it can be denied that Canon is not posting the high sales figures after Sony came out with these cameras in the last 3 years. Timing you say? Perhaps. Perhaps competition is eating into sales of what could have been Canon's.


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## George D. (Oct 28, 2015)

First of all to get a better picture one has to see Canon's annual report, it's on the web. They explain everything there and lay out the plan. For example it's no question Canon is moving to the right direction with high-spec (20Mp, etc.) Powershots against the mobile phone. 

Also note when speaking about Canon one has to think what about Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, etc. Are they all profiting less, in the red, and so on. For example if the entire dSLR market sales drop then it's not Canon, it's the product or some external factor. Like if there's major refugee crisis around the world dSLR sales become non-topic.


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## Adelino (Oct 28, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> Hehe! My puchasing decisions are showing first effects! Have not bought new Canon stuff for more than a year now. And obviously it's not just me ... Canon does not make what i want, so I don't buy. As simple as that. No fully competitive, kick ass mirrorless APS-C body (EOS M). Even less a fully competitive kick-ass FF mirrorless system (bodies + lenses). Only minor iterations of low-DR sensored mirrorslappers? ... hasta la vista, baby!



So why waste time reading about something you have no interest in? Do you read the Toyota forums even though you prefer Honda? Do you hang out at Home Depot and tell people you prefer Lowe's? Anyway, hasta la vista, I have some photos to go process.


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## Diko (Oct 28, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > ...Canon is more than capable of getting into the market whenever they choose. Judging by the comments on this forum, most mirrorless buyers are keeping their Canon lenses. If Canon sees mirrorless as a threat and an opportunity, they have the resources to get into the market and dominate.
> ...



I consider some arguments as invalid.
1/ _they have the resources to get into the market and dominate_: Resources - yes they have (probably), but this doesn't lead surely to domination at all. Ignoring competition and macroeconomic environment as well, as tech. market trends would be a major business mistake.

2/ _the #2 best selling MILC in Japan_: Japan is neither the world, nor it will be ever a trend setter. It is (and will always be) a very niche-specific market.

3/ _Judging by the comments on this forum..._: Come on! Who really believes that the majority of people with mostly SONY/NIKON glass in their armory will be exactly *on this* forum waiting to defend the CANON's market achievements?


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## Ian_of_glos (Oct 28, 2015)

eninja said:


> And how do you know Canon is not working on mirrorless dslr? its a different story when you say they are not working, and they ate not releasing. If you ask me, J wont release ace cards until needed.



How can you have a mirrorless DSLR? Surely, by definition if it is a DSLR it must use a mirror.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 28, 2015)

Diko said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



1) So, you agree the argument is valid. The argument was not Canon _will_ dominate, it is that they have the resources (and thus the _potential to_) dominate. 

2) Japan accounts for >20% of global MILC sales, which makes it highly relevant to gauge the popularity of a particular brand/model. 

3) Agreed. I should have replaced that part with an ellipsis – unlike Japan regarding MILC sales, _this forum_ is a very niche-specific market.


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## eninja (Oct 28, 2015)

Ian_of_glos said:


> eninja said:
> 
> 
> > And how do you know Canon is not working on mirrorless dslr? its a different story when you say they are not working, and they ate not releasing. If you ask me, J wont release ace cards until needed.
> ...



Contextly it is right. How can you less something, when it does not have that something in the first place.  A mirrorless dslr is a dslr without a mirror.


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## crisotunity (Oct 28, 2015)

Personally, I think Canon have done more than ok in the mirrorless space. I like my EOS M (v1) and I really don't get why it has such a bad reputation - and the internet comments on the M10 (which is not even in stores yet) are even more aggressive.
I've experimented with a couple of NEX (C3 and F3) and Panasonic cameras (G6 and GH2) I bought and sold on the cheap over the last 4-5 years. For day to day photography, I'm sticking with the M. Much nicer handling and controls (for me, Canon's touch screen controls are excellent). 

I'm sure that AF speed could be improved, but I never missed a shot because of it (I have a 5D mkIII for birds and wildlife). Canon have their dual-pixel system in their back pocket: once they sort out battery consumption issues, I'm sure they'll utilise it on the M series, but in the meantime for travel, friends and family occasions, etc I think the M is absolutely fine.
4k video: it would be nice to have, but (as far as I'm concerned) I would rather have half-decent battery life.
The only really embarrassing miss is the absence of 1080p 60fps.


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## sanj (Oct 28, 2015)

Adelino said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Hehe! My puchasing decisions are showing first effects! Have not bought new Canon stuff for more than a year now. And obviously it's not just me ... Canon does not make what i want, so I don't buy. As simple as that. No fully competitive, kick ass mirrorless APS-C body (EOS M). Even less a fully competitive kick-ass FF mirrorless system (bodies + lenses). Only minor iterations of low-DR sensored mirrorslappers? ... hasta la vista, baby!
> ...



There is something called 'General Knowledge'. Perhaps the OP likes to keep track of what is going on in the world. He used to shoot Canon (or still does) and likes to know what is going on with his ex brand. Something wrong with that??


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## Woody (Oct 28, 2015)

From the original link http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/27/canon-results-idUSL4N0SM25K20141027:

"Investments to boost businesses such as video surveillance and semiconductor steppers also helped to outweigh a 11.4 billion yen contribution from a weaker yen, a company spokesman said."

Semiconductor steppers... is Canon moving into 250 nm fab?


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## Diko (Oct 28, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> 1) So, you agree the argument is valid. The argument was not Canon _will_ dominate, it is that they have the resources (and thus the _potential to_) dominate.


No. I am afraid I don't. Indeed there is a possibility, but not necessarily what would happened in an if-scenario.
As I said - too many variables hiding too much risk for such endeavor to take place. 



neuroanatomist said:


> 2) Japan accounts for >20% of global MILC sales, which makes it highly relevant to gauge the popularity of a particular brand/model.


 I tend to agree with your numbers and differ from your conclusions, however.
Mother Japan could help in popularity. Yes - probably. In buying decision - Nope. Ergo it is not a trend setter. The biggest consumer is North America. Together with EMEA region could be hard to conclude any trend influencer overall.

You simply confuse the vendor's drive to boost profit from its _whole_ portfolio with trend setting. 

Alas can't find where I have read it but as I recall 5D M2 sold better all over the world aside from Japan where the Rebels were the generally preferred EOS body.



neuroanatomist said:


> 3) Agreed. I should have replaced that part with an ellipsis – unlike Japan regarding MILC sales, _this forum_ is a very niche-specific market.



This forum is not a market. It is a forum. 

If we speak in terms of human behaviour comfort zone trespasser are hard to meet even outside this forum. Therefore the glass keepers are always with times more then "*faith abandoning sinners*". However the point is elsewhere.

If you insist I can paraphrase: I believe that CANON has the force and the necessary means to get their hands dirty and *TRY* to dominate the market. But never forget what even they admit: Costs is everything!

It is not a matter if they _can_ or _want_, but *if* they *will* commit. According to the last *rumor (CR2)*. FF MILC could happen. But again it is a matter of costs. Even on 300 mm wafer tech it is uncertain what other hard to solve expenses they might come across.

And you got my point, quite clearly. Don't twist it with that delightful game of words of yours. ;-)


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 28, 2015)

Diko said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > 1) So, you agree the argument is valid. The argument was not Canon _will_ dominate, it is that they have the resources (and thus the _potential to_) dominate.
> ...



You seem to not grasp that the point was about resources to execute on a broader MILC strategy, not about either the decision to do so nor about the success of such efforts if undertaken. 

On the issue of resources to enter and dominate the market (the argument being made), you responded, "Resources - yes they have (probably)." Sounds like agreement to me. If you want to expand the argument beyond its origin then disagree with that, go ahead...just understand you're arguing against no one but yourself. 




Diko said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > 2) Japan accounts for >20% of global MILC sales, which makes it highly relevant to gauge the popularity of a particular brand/model.
> ...



I'm not confusing anything. I made two statements of fact (the EOS M was the #2 best-selling MILC in Japan, Japan comprises >20% of the global MILC market). You applied an interpretation to those facts (not mine) then refuted it – again, you're arguing only with yourself. 

Incidentally, your fact knowledge concerning camera markets is woefully inaccurate. North America is not the biggest consumer – of the three major geographies (Asia, Europe, and the Americas - throwing South America in as a bonus), the most cameras are sold in Asia, followed by Europe, with the Americas coming in last. That's for all cameras as well as separately for compacts, ILCs, dSLRs, and MILCs. So, who's confused?




Diko said:


> And you got my point, quite clearly. Don't twist it with that delightful game of words of yours. ;-)



Given that I'm stating facts and you're constructing several strawman arguments based on those facts, then shooting them down...it's quite clear that you're the one doing the twisting here. Given that, I see no point in further discussion.


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## Maiaibing (Oct 29, 2015)

*What Canon says about its #Q results*

Lots of speculation here, so just sharing the plain facts as Canon sees them after 3Q results are in:

"As for cameras, demand for both interchangeable-lens digital cameras and digital compact cameras continued to decline compared with last year. 

During the third quarter, despite a gradual recovery in sales of interchangeable-lens digital cameras in Japan and Europe, severe conditions continued in other regions while sales volume for digital compact cameras decreased compared with the same period of the previous year. 

Within the Imaging System Business Unit, although total sales volume of interchangeable-lens digital cameras declined due to market shrinkage, sales of interchangeable-lens digital cameras increased from the same period of the previous year in Japan and Europe owing to healthy demand for such new models as the EOS 5DS, EOS 5DS R, EOS Rebel T6i/EOS 750D, EOS Rebel T6s/EOS 760D and EOS M3. As for digital compact cameras, while sales volume declined amid the ongoing contraction of the market due to the effects of the growing popularity of smartphones, profitability improved thanks to the growing ratio of high-added-value models featuring high image quality and high-magnification zoom capabilities, such as the new PowerShot SX710 HS and PowerShot G3 X.

As for interchangeable-lens digital cameras, despite the strong recovery in Japan, the U.S. and Western Europe, the market is expected to shrink due to the deterioration of the economies in the Asian region and other factors. While the digital compact camera market is also expected to shrink, demand for high-added-value models featuring high image quality and high-magnification zoom capabilities is expected to grow steadily."

Have not had time to check on any accompanying statements Canon may have made. Interesting that while speculation is rife about how many 5DS/R's are being sold Canon itself highlights the sales of the two models as "healthy". This of course is a relative term compared to their expectations, but since its investor material - it does tell us that sales are "healthy" for both models compared to Canon's expectations.


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## Maiaibing (Oct 29, 2015)

Diko said:


> The biggest consumer is North America. Together with EMEA region could be hard to conclude any trend influencer overall.



As far as I know Europe is a larger camera market than the US.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 29, 2015)

@ Maiaibing - thanks for extracting the comments. I recall that Canon indicated previously they would focus their compact/fixed lens camera efforts on higher end models, looks like that strategy is paying off. 



Maiaibing said:


> Diko said:
> 
> 
> > The biggest consumer is North America. Together with EMEA region could be hard to conclude any trend influencer overall.
> ...



Correct. As also stated above, Asia is a larger camera market than either Europe or the Americas (based on CIPA data, where Asia as a geographic region comprises data they report separately for Japan and the rest of Asia).


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## Diko (Oct 29, 2015)

OK 


neuroanatomist said:


> You seem to not grasp that the point was about resources to execute on a broader MILC strategy, not about either the decision to do so nor about the success of such efforts if undertaken.


 No, no, no , no, no  I don't agree with your interpretation of the sentence:


> If Canon sees mirrorless as a threat and an opportunity, they have the resources to get into the market *and* _dominate_.


 I disagree with his *AND *_related _to "_*dominate*_". So I also don't agree with your first _interpretation_:


> The argument was *not *Canon *will *dominate


. In this sentence of *his *I understand _*Dominate *_ as Canon getting *1st place* in *MILC sales*.

Perhaps the reason I addressed two people in the same post left you with the wrong conclusions about with whose opinion I disagree in each quote.

Or perhaps you make your own interpretations of *Unfocused*'s post and try to persuade everyone that I am contradicting with myself. If that is the case - nice move. I refuse to take any further part of any of *your *future interpretations of *his *words.   ;-) 



neuroanatomist said:


> I'm not confusing anything. I made two statements of fact (the EOS M was the #2 best-selling MILC in Japan, Japan comprises >20% of the global MILC market). You applied an interpretation to those facts (not mine) then refuted it – again, you're arguing only with yourself.


 This is strictly your opinion.  Here's mine:

As said I agree with numbers and not with your conclusions. 

Even though more fabulously expressed: 1/5th of MILC Global sales as accounted to Japan not necessarily leads to "_gauge the popularity_".

As much as I try to follow japanese sites me and my colleagues tend to inform mostly from english ones. So Europe and the rest of the NON-Asian world probably also get influenced mostly *NOT *by Japanese sales, but rather from reviews and opinion-leaders from the western world.

"Popularity" and "sales" as in this case and in this sentence of yours are NOT the same and the one (_*sales*_) does NOT lead to the other (namely _*gauging popularity*_) . Please note! I even don't bring up the "abandoned EOS M2 from CANON USA" as an argument.



neuroanatomist said:


> ...the most cameras are sold in Asia, followed by Europe, with the Americas coming in last. That's for all cameras as well as separately for compacts, ILCs, dSLRs, and MILCs. So, who's confused?


 About Asia, my bad I think you are right. We even commented it somewhere here I believe.


*And as conclusion* perhaps it is better to chillax a little ;-) If not sure what I meant just ask. ;-) Pointing fingers for what I've said and convincing me that I am "arguing against no one but yourself" won't do good to anyone of us. Simply because I am not arguing with no one. I am expressing an opinion. ;-) 

Actually my opinion is a doubt based on that quite informative interview posted recently. My keyword are *costs *and *uncertainty * in relation to *MILC*... Based on what I read - perhaps you missed my points. I hope now you understand *whose *words I talked about and *what *I understood by those words.

PS:



Efka76 said:


> ...I do not understand why FF cameras are so expensive...Currently it is possible to buy very very good laptop for 1500 EUR but you will not buy a good camera for that.



*Efka76*, read the above mentioned article. There aside from "masking" you will read a confirmation about attempts to transfer to 450 mm wafers. That is the sensor production. And it's a *HUGE* investment. And I am pretty pretty sure that they don't allocate/book it in one fiscal year ;-) Ergo the expense partially covers the future production, I guess. 

PS2:


Maiaibing said:


> As far as I know Europe is a larger camera market than the US.


 Check the data @CIPA for yourself. ASIA + JAPAN > Europe. Otherwise NOT. ;-)


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## that1guyy (Oct 29, 2015)

luminaeus said:


> that1guyy said:
> 
> 
> > Cannot say I'm surprised. I wonder if they will actually face a loss before they decide to create some good products.
> ...



Let's see your shit photos then big boy.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 29, 2015)

@Diko, yikes, what a mess. Agree to not agree is fine. 



Diko said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > As far as I know Europe is a larger camera market than the US.
> ...



Erm, NOT what? Maiaibing stated Europe > US. The fact that Asia > Europe does not invalidate Europe > US. Perhaps you should follow your suggestion to check the data...but do it properly. Simple math.


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## Diko (Oct 29, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Erm, NOT what? Maiaibing stated Europe > US. The fact that Asia > Europe does not invalidate Europe > US. Perhaps you should follow your suggestion to check the data...but do it properly. Simple math.


 Yep.  ROFL. 

In 3 am last night I meant _Otherwise NOT_ (about Asia being the biggest market). Today I laughed at may own (lack) of simple logic. Never-the-less without Japan according to my understandings Asia is not the biggest market, right?

To tell you the truth I really don't understand how come Europe has better sales than USA? Aside from the vivid birdwatchers in UK )) I really can't understand it. Is there any data about Canon's Europe sales country by country?


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 29, 2015)

Diko said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Erm, NOT what? Maiaibing stated Europe > US. The fact that Asia > Europe does not invalidate Europe > US. Perhaps you should follow your suggestion to check the data...but do it properly. Simple math.
> ...



True, but Japan is part of Asia, right? CIPA just breaks it out because that's understandably important to them as a Japanese organization. 

Europe has more people than the U.S., and Europe has a bigger economy (by GDP) than the U.S. So probably not too surprising that more cameras are sold in Europe.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 29, 2015)

luminaeus said:


> Are you holding out for some imaginary medium format camera that shoots fifteen frames a second with twenty stops of DR and fits in your pocket?



Yes, please...and the 600mm f/2.8 lens the size of a soda can to go with it!


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## Diko (Oct 29, 2015)

luminaeus said:


> that1guyy said:
> 
> 
> > luminaeus said:
> ...


+1

5Ds is actually much more than what numbers and specs reveal. Lovely device providing great freedom for photoshooting. ;-)


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## bedford (Oct 29, 2015)

Sony reports similar results for the quarter ending Sep 15 (Q2):
"Sales increased 4.1% year-on-year (a 3% decrease on a constant currency basis) to 186.0 billion yen (1,550 million U.S. dollars), primarily due to an improvement in product mix of digital cameras* reflecting a shift to high value-added models and the impact of foreign exchange rates, partially offset by a decrease in unit sales of digital cameras reflecting a contraction of the market."

See: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/fr/15q2_sony.pdf

Oliver


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## unfocused (Oct 29, 2015)

bedford said:


> Sony reports similar results for the quarter ending Sep 15 (Q2):
> "Sales increased 4.1% year-on-year (a 3% decrease on a constant currency basis) to 186.0 billion yen (1,550 million U.S. dollars), primarily due to an improvement in product mix of digital cameras* reflecting a shift to high value-added models and the impact of foreign exchange rates, partially offset by a decrease in unit sales of digital cameras reflecting a contraction of the market."
> 
> See: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/fr/15q2_sony.pdf
> ...



A less tolerant person might recycle this quote:



that1guyy said:


> Cannot say I'm surprised. I wonder if they will actually face a loss before they decide to create some good products.



Or possibly this one with the following corrections:



AvTvM said:


> Hehe! So my purchasing decisions are showing first effects! Have not bought new Canon *Sony* stuff for more than a year now. And obviously it's not just me ... Canon *Sony* does not make what i want, so I don't buy. As simple as that... hasta la vista, baby!



Of course, I wouldn't be so mean as to do that. 

I would though, point out, that taking global trends and viewing them through myopic eyes focused only on what one personally wants is a good way to look like a fool.


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## that1guyy (Oct 30, 2015)

luminaeus said:


> that1guyy said:
> 
> 
> > luminaeus said:
> ...



Yes because the only alternative to a 5DsR and a 1DX is this imaginary camera that you made up. 1DX is beyond my price range. 5DsR is a repackaged 5D3 with more megapixels. I don't see Canon adding any new features in their cameras or improving their sensor tech for the past several years.


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## plam_1980 (Oct 30, 2015)

luminaeus said:


> Dilbert,
> 
> "It now expects 370 billion yen for the year to end December, up from a prior prediction of 365 billion yen and a 9.7 percent increase on the previous year."
> 
> I wouldn't worry too much about Canon.


"but it nudged up its full-year earnings estimates on a sharply weaker yen"

If a company makes its profits not because of increased sales, but because of foreign-exchange profits, they should better start to worry (you or me not so much, if we are not shareholders)


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## PureClassA (Nov 1, 2015)

Sorry to shatter every Sony fanboy myth, but here....

http://www.canonwatch.com/sony-increases-earnings-demand-for-sony-cameras-felt-by-27/


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## Stu_bert (Nov 2, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Sorry to shatter every Sony fanboy myth, but here....
> 
> http://www.canonwatch.com/sony-increases-earnings-demand-for-sony-cameras-felt-by-27/



Interesting that on DPReview the news is reported differently...

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0427556344/sony-s-latest-financial-results-show-camera-unit-sales-down-operating-income-up

3% decline on it's imaging products sales, avoiding the perhaps more significant 27% drop. Biased reporting without showing all the information....

Via Tom Hogan:

_CIPA is reporting that compact camera unit volume is down 21% year-to-year, while DSLRs are down 5% and mirrorless up 3%_

Tom's commentary is as-usual, quite neutral & balanced, essentially it's too early to tell if moving to more expensive units will offset volume decline.


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## bedford (Nov 3, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Sorry to shatter every Sony fanboy myth, but here....
> 
> http://www.canonwatch.com/sony-increases-earnings-demand-for-sony-cameras-felt-by-27/



What's the source for the 27% drop in unit numbers?

I couldn't find this information in the official Q2 financial report.

Regards,
Oliver


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## Stu_bert (Nov 7, 2015)

bedford said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry to shatter every Sony fanboy myth, but here....
> ...



Oliver

This is from Tom Hogan's site (my italic & bold)

_Note: once again we have a number of photography sites blindly repeating numbers they found published by the mainstream press, this time the decline in camera unit volume at Sony reported in their latest financial disclosures *(unit volume down 27%).* Without a detailed breakout, it’s tough to tell what that decline really represents, but I’d guess it’s mostly Cyber-shots, which are slowly becoming invisible. <snip> _


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