# Latest Canon disappoints wants me to switch over to Nikon.



## 00Q (Feb 8, 2012)

I have been extremely disappointed with Canon lately. I have been waiting for the 5DMKIII that never comes. And the 24-70 was updated yesterday without IS and a huge price tag. 

Plus, the Nikon D800 was announced yesterday with a very affordable price tag. I doubt the new 5DMKIII will beat the specs of the D800. Nikon also has the better wide angle zooms. Question I ask myself is why am I still with Canon? 

And dont smite me on this, Im a canon fan. Just that I think Canon is out of touch with the present reality.


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## birdman (Feb 8, 2012)

Canon will counter. Don't you think someone from their company knew all along about this camera from Nikon getting released? They have spies just like the US has spies overseas...

As far as WA lenses, expect to see at least two new ones this year. I do wish the 24-70 II had IS, but the optics look ridiculous as they are. I am not throwing in the towel just yet


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## mathino (Feb 8, 2012)

birdman said:


> Canon will counter. Don't you think someone from their company knew all along about this camera from Nikon getting released? They have spies just like the US has spies overseas...
> 
> As far as WA lenses, expect to see at least two new ones this year. I do wish the 24-70 II had IS, but the optics look ridiculous as they are. I am not throwing in the towel just yet



+1

Exactly as I am. Just do not throw in the towel. Wait. Canon definitely has something in the sleeve - without a doubt. I was also disappointed, but these new primes looks great (even they are expensive now) and new 24-70 looks stunning in terms of MTF chart. My guess is that we will see 2 FF this year - one high mpx focused on video (4k) & studio (at 4000-4500 USD) and other one focused on AF accuracy/high ISO capabilities (at 3000 USD). There is market for both.


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## JR (Feb 8, 2012)

I understand your frustration 00Q but I think you are a bit quick to jump to conclusion. Because the 5DmkII was such a big commercial success compared tot he old D700, it was only normal that Canon waited for Nikon to make their announcement first.

I dont think we have seen the last of Canon just yet for the camera body. On the lens side, while I too would have liked an IS version of the 24-70 lens, however if the IQ is as good as the charts suggests, this might very well becore a go to lens for many of us...and again if it fulfill its promise, you will not find any equivalent in the Nikon zoom line-up - at least not yet...

lets hold judgement untill Canon makes it next move at least!


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## mathino (Feb 8, 2012)

JR said:


> lets hold judgement untill Canon makes it next move at least!



+1
That's what I'm saying


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## mathino (Feb 8, 2012)

I did a little calculation with numbers and this is what I've found out:

230 000 yen = 1840 USD (if you assume 1 USD = 125 yen - 2002 exchange ratio)
230 000 yen = 2987 USD (if you use todays ratio between USD and yen)

On the USA Canon page there is MSRP price 2299 USD (which equals to 177 023 with todays ratio). So actually USA price is lower then Japan price for 24-70 II if you compare dollar-to-dollar.

So first thing is that when this new lens will be available (in stock, not pre-orders) price will be actually lower then 2299 USD. Also it is only MSRP. My guess is that around summer time price will be +- 1800 USD from resellers.



...and a little thought an the end. If you check japanese page you will find out that MSRPs are:

EF 24-70 f/2.8L - 220 000 yen
EF 24-70 f/2.8L II - 230 000 yen

So the difference between them is only 10 000 yen = 129.87 USD (todays ratio). Current price for Mk I is 1 369 USD (B&H), 1399 (Adorama) - ofc without rabates that are actually on Canon stuff.
*If* my _calculations_ and _assumptions_ are right (let's take 1500 USD as highest price tag for Mk I) then Mk II should be around +-1800 USD (including that this is a new item, new tech, coatings, lens elements and so... also when in full production and available at stores and resellers). _I think we should wait, let's say until summer, and the price will drop._ Just my 0.02 cents to discussion.

Sad thing is that I'm in Europe so even if the price tag will be 1800 USD, here will this lens cost 1800 € = 2 386 USD.


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## Neeneko (Feb 8, 2012)

Well, 'out of touch' is probably a bit too strong, but as with any marketing group think they seem to have an internal narrative going on that 'every product must xyz'.

Personally, I have also been getting less thrilled with Canon lately as they seem to be moving more and more towards 'multimedia' and 'cinema' focus, though looks like Nikon is jumping on that bandwagon too.

So I am pondering jumping ship for something like Sinar, Megaviaion, PhaseOne, AVT, or someone else who still makes cameras as opposed to multimedia devices with camera capabilities.


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## fussy III (Feb 8, 2012)

"Just that I think Canon is out of touch with the present reality."

I agree, no IS in 24-70 is ridicoulous, still no 16-35 IS, an optically and technically outdated 300/4.0, no focus-peaking, ...

But most of all, the 1DX samples remind me too much of the same old problem woth color noise. That just tells me that they could have built that same camera with the only difference of a few less fps (let's say eight) three years ago. Today it's to late to come up with that kind of camera.

I preordered the 1DX trusting Canon followed a new philosophie that would allow them innovation. Since IQ has not changed considerably (Kindly allow me to expect the worst from high iso after having seen jpeg ISO 800), all I see now is a new philosophie trying to draw more money from idealistic Canon Users.

The D800 offers twice the resolution and seems to look about as good at same ISO levels, at least colornoise-wise. All I could ask for in the D800 would be 6 instead of 4 fps. But I am not sure I will want to wait for the D900, I might just switch to Nikon now.

Canon! - having the best fiexd telephoto-lenses in the line-up and TS-Es just isn't enough!


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## BlueMixWhite (Feb 8, 2012)

I don't understand why all these comparison going on. Come on guys, let's go back to 2009-2011. It was the battle of 5Dmkii vs D700 and 7D vs D300s. Not now 5Dmkii vs D800. Wait for canon to reveal what it have, then only compare. Do u know while canon user gets to enjoy all the glory of 5D and 7D, Nikon user were shoot with a technology way behind.


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## mathino (Feb 8, 2012)

BlueMixWhite said:


> I don't understand why all these comparison going on. Come on guys, let's go back to 2009-2011. It was the battle of 5Dmkii vs D700 and 7D vs D300s. Not now 5Dmkii vs D800. Wait for canon to reveal what it have, then only compare. Do u know while canon user gets to enjoy all the glory of 5D and 7D, Nikon user were shoot with a technology way behind.



+1

That's just not a fair comparison as you stated. We have to wait and see new Canon bodies to compare them. Even then, new Canon cameras could be a lot different from D800 (if there will be 2 FF bodies, one 40+ mpx and one affordable with 18-22 mpx).


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## Pyrenees (Feb 8, 2012)

As a Canon dude (only very-moderately invested in their gear) I will wait for Canon's next move, but I have to say that that I'm very impressed with what I have seen/read so far about the D800. As someone who shoots portraits but who also does architectural photography, the D800 looks quite good and at a fantastic price point. Would love to pair it with the excellent Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8. I'm sure Canon will counter this move by Nikon. Either way, some exciting times ahead.


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## alipaulphotography (Feb 8, 2012)

00Q said:


> I doubt the new 5DMKIII will beat the specs of the D800.



Based on what?! If you want to move to nikon, no one is stopping you, but you are basing your decisions on a 3.5 year old camera. Canon has an excellent selection of lenses for all uses - 16-35mm f/2.8? Nikon do not have a 24-70mm with IS? The original 24-70mm is still an excellent lens and will now be made even more affordable. They are just about to update their incredibly successful 5D MKII. If the new 5D isn't announced or shipping by summer, then I could understand your disappointment (as I will be disappointed also) but it has been 1 day since nikons D800 release. 

Patience!


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## Mendolera (Feb 8, 2012)

While I do think the D800 looks awesome and love the fact it can crop to 1.5X. Something I would love in a Canon, Id give it a couple months to see what Canon has to offer before jumping to that conclusion. Im not sure that its fair to say though that Canon is not in touch with present reality. The 1Dx and D4 look pretty close to me (In fact if Canon fixes F8 AF id give it the edge). 

The new super telephotos (500 & 600) now have an availability date so im guessing stuff is coming and soon. 

The only think I was disappointed in was I think the price of the 24-70 is very high for todays economy and would have expected something in the 1750-1900 range..


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## Somnipotent (Feb 8, 2012)

I'm sick of reading all these whiny posts about "gonna switch to Nikon". Do you guys enjoy taking pictures or just collecting tech? When you invest in a brand, you invest in the system. Just because the competing brand releases something "better" you honestly think Canon is going to sit idle? If you've already thought about it, don't justify it to everyone else, just do it and be done with it.


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## Maui5150 (Feb 8, 2012)

I have to laugh at this. 

Please. By all means. Jump ship and switch. 

What do you have for lenses and flashes? I need some new gear.

Is the D800 a decent camera? Sure. 

Is it the best thing out there? Hardly. I wasn't overly impressed with the ISO performance and while 36MP is bigger, for most of my usage it is overkill. Now the AF is a different matter. For me at least a version of the 5D with improved AF and maybe a little larger resolution would be awesome and address my needs. Hardly a reason to jump ship... especially since I KNOW Canon has at least one if not two or more higher end bodies coming out this year and I expect we will see a High MP camera (3D) and improved 5D (I think the 7D line ends and the 5D line becomes a 24 MP, 19 Cross-Point AF, 6 FPS FF)... Basically the best of both worlds... Fast, better AF, Great ISO, Solid IQ and decent resolution. I expect this to be a $2500 camera

As for the new 24-70. No IS. Yes, disappoints many, but the MTF graph? The performance improvement on this lens is HUGE.


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## geniusofnati (Feb 8, 2012)

Even though, we know the 5D is due for an update, dont be surprised if they annouce it soon. Also we gotta remember, Canon was damaged in the earthquake, so we dont know if they are fully functional yet. However, Canon's market share is killing Nikons. Plus Canon has a prototype that is 128mpixels with 12fps, so they can up the megapixels at will. Also Canon produces the CMOS sensor in house, not Nikon,thats why thier price is always a tad bit high.


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## ghosh9691 (Feb 8, 2012)

00Q said:


> I have been extremely disappointed with Canon lately. I have been waiting for the 5DMKIII that never comes. And the 24-70 was updated yesterday without IS and a huge price tag.
> 
> Plus, the Nikon D800 was announced yesterday with a very affordable price tag. I doubt the new 5DMKIII will beat the specs of the D800. Nikon also has the better wide angle zooms. Question I ask myself is why am I still with Canon?
> 
> And dont smite me on this, Im a canon fan. Just that I think Canon is out of touch with the present reality.



If you are truly unhappy and the Nikon D800 is the camera you think will give your photography the advantage, then I think you should go ahead and switch over to Nikon.

Everyone has different needs and perspectives - I, for example, am completely happy and satisfied with my 5D2 and don't need or want another camera for the foreseeable future - either Nikon or Canon 

Each to his own...just let me know when you do sell off your Canon gear


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## 00Q (Feb 8, 2012)

geniusofnati said:


> Even though, we know the 5D is due for an update, dont be surprised if they annouce it soon. Also we gotta remember, Canon was damaged in the earthquake, so we dont know if they are fully functional yet. However, Canon's market share is killing Nikons. Plus Canon has a prototype that is 128mpixels with 12fps, so they can up the megapixels at will. Also Canon produces the CMOS sensor in house, not Nikon,thats why thier price is always a tad bit high.



128mps 12fps??


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## ghosh9691 (Feb 8, 2012)

00Q said:


> geniusofnati said:
> 
> 
> > Even though, we know the 5D is due for an update, dont be surprised if they annouce it soon. Also we gotta remember, Canon was damaged in the earthquake, so we dont know if they are fully functional yet. However, Canon's market share is killing Nikons. Plus Canon has a prototype that is 128mpixels with 12fps, so they can up the megapixels at will. Also Canon produces the CMOS sensor in house, not Nikon,thats why thier price is always a tad bit high.
> ...



Yes, that was a prototype that they demonstrated a couple of years ago . It was actually a 120MP APS-H sensor. Not thinking about switching any more?

Here's the link: http://www.canon.com/news/2010/aug24e.html?WT.mc_id=C126149


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## kubelik (Feb 8, 2012)

mathino said:


> I did a little calculation with numbers and this is what I've found out:
> 
> 230 000 yen = 1840 USD (if you assume 1 USD = 125 yen - 2002 exchange ratio)
> 230 000 yen = 2987 USD (if you use todays ratio between USD and yen)
> ...



the only problem with this is, Canon USA defines the prices for Canon USA, not by using a direct exchange formula based on Canon Japan's price. there's a lot of other math with tariffs and taxes that go into it. same with Canon Europe.

And for Canon USA prices, especially in the L-series segment, historically we have never seen much more than a 5% difference between the MSRP and the street price. once rebates kick in, you could get up to an additional 10% off or so. but what you're looking at is nowhere close to a $1800 US sale price, you are looking at a ~$2200 street price, and maybe $2K once rebates hit later in the year/next year.


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## awinphoto (Feb 8, 2012)

golly this EXACT same topic was mentioned yesterday and subsequently censored/blocked from this forum... hmmm... oh well... If your unhappy, by all means, go find a camera system that tickles your fancy, but I dont see a point for posting it on this forum... good luck.


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## 00Q (Feb 8, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> golly this EXACT same topic was mentioned yesterday and subsequently censored/blocked from this forum... hmmm... oh well... If your unhappy, by all means, go find a camera system that tickles your fancy, but I dont see a point for posting it on this forum... good luck.



why can't people post negative things about canon on this forum? Im not slating canon, only to voice my disappointment. You sir seems to be rather narrow minded about your brand.


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## EYEONE (Feb 8, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> golly this EXACT same topic was mentioned yesterday and subsequently censored/blocked from this forum... hmmm... oh well... If your unhappy, by all means, go find a camera system that tickles your fancy, but I dont see a point for posting it on this forum... good luck.



+1. This topic gets soooo old. Talk is cheap and no one cares.


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## Orion (Feb 8, 2012)

00Q said:


> I have been extremely disappointed with Canon lately. I have been waiting for the 5DMKIII that never comes. And the 24-70 was updated yesterday without IS and a huge price tag.
> 
> Plus, the Nikon D800 was announced yesterday with a very affordable price tag. I doubt the new 5DMKIII will beat the specs of the D800. Nikon also has the better wide angle zooms. Question I ask myself is why am I still with Canon?
> 
> And dont smite me on this, Im a canon fan. Just that I think Canon is out of touch with the present reality.



Well, for one, I just don`t understand what your beef is with a 5DmkIII release being +/- couple months away, or later this month . . . . All this becasue the D800 is out!? What if the D800 were not released yet, but later this month instead?? My point is that all the things I keep reading here make no sense in the real world. It`s like people are sleeping with either Canon or Nikon and they have this desire to defend one or the other as if weither company is thier best friend instead of the coonsumer electronics supplier. . . .

By all means, if you feel that Nikon is better, or Canon, then make your switch or stay . .. but I don;t see how that is any of my concern or anybody else`s. . . . honestly. It all sounds so childish.

. . . and if you think Canon is out of touch with present reality, then I guess the 1Dx is a nightmare? and no IS on a 24-70. . . . the lens must suck? I say give me IS over great glass any day? The fact that Canon is reportedly getting ready to introduce multiple camera bodies this year, is not a good enough reason to understand a bit longer wait? talkin weeks here, not years. 

Maybe when the 5DmkIII comes out or anew model, somebody from Nikon will make a post over at Nikon rumors and say the exact opposite of that you are syaing here, and . . . oh wait . . that already happens.


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## awinphoto (Feb 8, 2012)

00Q said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > golly this EXACT same topic was mentioned yesterday and subsequently censored/blocked from this forum... hmmm... oh well... If your unhappy, by all means, go find a camera system that tickles your fancy, but I dont see a point for posting it on this forum... good luck.
> ...



Not at all... I've had my beef's with Canon and been rather vocal in some things but to criticize a camera that hasn't even been announced compared a camera that hasn't even been released is a bit far fetched... If you wanted to gripe that we are waiting too long, the product/life cycle is too long, AF, etc you may have a point... and it's alright to change minds, switch brands, do whatever... that is your right... But posting like this in this manner, what are you trying to do? Trying to see if people will convince you otherwise? Trying to get more converts to make the jump with you? It just seems pointless to gripe just for the sake of griping.


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## capertillar (Feb 8, 2012)

meh, just a point of discussion i would say... although the whole fanboy thing is quite hilarious... 

we should focus on the discussion of what features the d800 has that the 5dmk3 can benefit from, and when the time comes, which features the 5dmk3 significantly surpass the d800 in...

im currently not terribly invested in canon, so i have the opportunity to make the switch, so im takin a chill pill while waiting for both to release their cameras and determine which it is i want to move forward in

but i do like the 1.2x crop feature the d800 has..


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## awinphoto (Feb 8, 2012)

capertillar said:


> meh, just a point of discussion i would say... although the whole fanboy thing is quite hilarious...
> 
> we should focus on the discussion of what features the d800 has that the 5dmk3 can benefit from, and when the time comes, which features the 5dmk3 significantly surpass the d800 in...
> 
> ...



Isn't it a 1.5x crop feature? Ok I'll bite... how does everyone feel about the pop up flash thing... I know it's been looked down upon by the elite professionals and most elite professionals would never use it and all it could do is compromise durability since it's a moving part, but that aside, how many would like it for the occasional oh crap moment and or for the flash commander feature the 7D has?


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## EYEONE (Feb 8, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> capertillar said:
> 
> 
> > meh, just a point of discussion i would say... although the whole fanboy thing is quite hilarious...
> ...



From using the 7D and making use of the flash commander a lot, I hope the 5DIII has a pop up with the same ability. It absolutely will *not*, but I wish anyway. I would mind if it were a very tiny flash that only worked to control others. I don't use the pop up as a flash anyway, I only use it to trigger others. Pro or not, why would you not want the built in ability to take the flash off the camera?

And the end of the day I'd like buy into a system that allows HSS. But, the strobe trigger has awesome abilities indoors and outdoors when you don't need to kill the sun.


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## moreorless (Feb 8, 2012)

I'd point out that the Nikon 24-70 doesnt have IS and costs $1900, whats more with Nikon you don't have the option of a good quality F/4 normal zoom given the 24-120's shortcomings compaired to the 24-105's.

When your dealing with these monster megapixel counts my guess is that theres going to need to be more of a movement back towards tripods anyway to get the best out of them.


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## awinphoto (Feb 8, 2012)

EYEONE said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > capertillar said:
> ...



Would you prefer to have a pop up flash commander or perhaps no pop up flash but maybe a radio or IR transmitter for a commander?


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## Dylan777 (Feb 8, 2012)

Somnipotent said:


> I'm sick of reading all these whiny posts about "gonna switch to Nikon". Do you guys enjoy taking pictures or just collecting tech? When you invest in a brand, you invest in the system. Just because the competing brand releases something "better" you honestly think Canon is going to sit idle? *If you've already thought about it, don't justify it to everyone else, just do it and be done with it. *



Am with you on this...JUST DO IT


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## EYEONE (Feb 8, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> EYEONE said:
> 
> 
> > awinphoto said:
> ...



Can they build an IR into the camera?

I don't have any experience with IR transmitters but I'm wondering if it works as well for situations where you don't have line of sight. For example when I'm using my 430s and the 7D I don't have to orient the flash base to face the camera. The 430s will pick up the bounce and fire anyway. Even outside in the late afternoon I've used it with a high rate of success. Would I still have that ability if it were an IR commander built into the 5DIII? Is line of sight more or less important?


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## KeithR (Feb 8, 2012)

00Q said:


> why can't people post negative things about canon on this forum?


Because it's arrogant of you - and of anyone else who posts along the same lines (guess what? You're saying nothing new) - to assume that anyone else really cares about your personal problems with Canon...


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## awinphoto (Feb 8, 2012)

EYEONE said:


> Can they build an IR into the camera?
> 
> I don't have any experience with IR transmitters but I'm wondering if it works as well for situations where you don't have line of sight. For example when I'm using my 430s and the 7D I don't have to orient the flash base to face the camera. The 430s will pick up the bounce and fire anyway. Even outside in the late afternoon I've used it with a high rate of success. Would I still have that ability if it were an IR commander built into the 5DIII? Is line of sight more or less important?



Aren't TV remotes IR based? Could be as simple as a red window maybe next to the canon logo on the prism housing or near where the focus assist lamp is usually on the XXd cameras? The Canon ST-E2 is IR based, is it not? There is a line of sight factor to consider but so does the pop up flash with the 7D for what it matters...


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## EYEONE (Feb 8, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> EYEONE said:
> 
> 
> > Can they build an IR into the camera?
> ...



As I said though, if you are indoors or not in direct sun light you do not need line of sight with the 7D to trigger flashes. If you are indoors it works with flashes behind the camera, facing the other way, or around corners. Outside you have to put the flashes in front of the camera but as long as you have shade or a setting sun you don't have to make sure the receiver is facing the camera.

I'm thinking they would need a IR transmitter on either side of the lens to prevent the lens from blocking the signal. But other wise I guess it could work well. If it would allow HSS I'd go for it. I believe the 580 as a controller allows HSS right?


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## capertillar (Feb 8, 2012)

im undecided on the flash... btw, there are nikon folks on the nikon forums who are "not happy" with the inclusion of flash on the d800... guess they like canon's full frame bodies that dont have flash

i can imagine it being useful, but depends on the size of the lens, not familiar with the size of nikons lenses, so cant speak to that, but i cant use the built in flash on my t2i with my 24-70

and i believe its 1.2x, crops the 24x36 to 24x30 for convenient 8x10 prints... 

definitely need to know the high iso performance on both the d800 and the 5dmk3/x before i pull any triggers though


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## awinphoto (Feb 8, 2012)

EYEONE said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > EYEONE said:
> ...



I believe it works as a controller and HSS. Im sure theres a lot of real estate on the body of the 5d where they could sneak and IR transmitter or two or three if they wanted to do it... I just dont see why they would give that function to the 7D, a sports camera, and not give it to the 5d, a STUDIO camera. But what do i know? 8)


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## awinphoto (Feb 8, 2012)

capertillar said:


> im undecided on the flash... btw, there are nikon folks on the nikon forums who are "not happy" with the inclusion of flash on the d800... guess they like canon's full frame bodies that dont have flash
> 
> i can imagine it being useful, but depends on the size of the lens, not familiar with the size of nikons lenses, so cant speak to that, but i cant use the built in flash on my t2i with my 24-70
> 
> ...



I thought it was 1.5 to match their crop body sensors (best of both worlds) but i could be wrong. I think the flash used to be one of those taboo things where pro's hated that people would become dependent with on-camera flash, plus it doesn't work well beyond like 10 feet and looks bad and unflattering, but also was one of those "if you dont want it, dont use it kinda thing" and seen as a lower end function, hence the 1d and 5d never had one. There are times when i'm out shooting, maybe I have a flash with me, maybe I dont, or maybe its set up for a larger shoot i'm about to do but I want to do some quick set-up or snap shots and it's unavailable... at times it's nice just to have that option, but I can see the argument either way... But if it adds even more functionality (commander)... perhaps its even more important.


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## TexPhoto (Feb 8, 2012)

I am opening a home for unwanted Canon gear. Please forward you unwanted gear to me at: Pretend address 00918

Please send camera bodies < 2 years old and all L lenses via federal express overnight.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 8, 2012)

00Q said:


> I have been extremely disappointed with Canon lately. I have been waiting for the 5DMKIII that never comes. And the 24-70 was updated yesterday without IS and a huge price tag.
> 
> Plus, the Nikon D800 was announced yesterday with a very affordable price tag. I doubt the new 5DMKIII will beat the specs of the D800. Nikon also has the better wide angle zooms. Question I ask myself is why am I still with Canon?
> 
> And dont smite me on this, Im a canon fan. Just that I think Canon is out of touch with the present reality.



The rumors, on this site, make it sound like either a fast 18MP body or a very slow fps 40MP from Canon will be the two choices.

The D800 is kind of a nice split, rather slow as a FF, but with full grip a DX body with pretty decent speed, close to a true all rounder with top AF, top MP for detail and reach, top video, and still a way to get some speed (although this part is implemented a touch weirdly and weakly but still it is there and more than can be said for the competition).


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## Maui5150 (Feb 8, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> Maui5150 said:
> 
> 
> > What do you have for lenses and flashes? I need some new gear.
> ...



I thought you had some fast glass. Nothing below F/4???


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## mjbehnke (Feb 8, 2012)

Just my thoughts from reading around the web....

Nikons D800\800E will be pushing the limits of all those old Nikon lenses. I've read a few posts where people are saying that even the D3x was pushing the limits of the "old" nikon lenses and that they needed to upgrade alot of them. Not sure how true this is, but the posts where saying that the edges of these lenses just can't resolve high MP sensors. True\False... I don't own Nikon, so I don't know.

On the other hand........ I think canon knows exactly what they are doing..... Updating lenses for the resolving power needed for some high MP EOS coming? I think so. their was talk of Canon updating the 70-200 F4 L IS... it is such a tack sharp lense, but Canon must think it's not good enough for High Pixel Sensors??

Guess we'll see what Pop's out of the factory next.


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## Astro (Feb 8, 2012)

00Q said:


> I have been extremely disappointed with Canon lately. I have been waiting for the 5DMKIII that never comes. And the 24-70 was updated yesterday without IS and a huge price tag.
> 
> Plus, the Nikon D800 was announced yesterday with a very affordable price tag. I doubt the new 5DMKIII will beat the specs of the D800. Nikon also has the better wide angle zooms. Question I ask myself is why am I still with Canon?
> 
> And dont smite me on this, Im a canon fan. Just that I think Canon is out of touch with the present reality.



who cares.....


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## Astro (Feb 8, 2012)

KeithR said:


> 00Q said:
> 
> 
> > why can't people post negative things about canon on this forum?
> ...



exactly.. he is no. 4676 who wrote something nobody (not even his mother) is interested in.

honest.... who cares what he is thinking or doing? 
i don´t care if he uses canon or nikon and i don´t care if he switches to nikon or fuji.
it´s his personal decision.. and im not interested in that.

i mean can´t people post such stuff on facebook?


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## ssrdd (Feb 8, 2012)

Astro said:


> 00Q said:
> 
> 
> > I have been extremely disappointed with Canon lately. I have been waiting for the 5DMKIII that never comes. And the 24-70 was updated yesterday without IS and a huge price tag.
> ...


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## Canon-F1 (Feb 8, 2012)

ssrdd said:


> Astro said:
> 
> 
> > 00Q said:
> ...



learn to quote....


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## Canon-F1 (Feb 8, 2012)

Astro said:


> i mean can´t people post such stuff on facebook?



+1


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## ghosh9691 (Feb 8, 2012)

So disappointed with Canon! I am going to sell all my Canon gear this month and buy the Nikon D800 and lenses!!!

...and in a few months, when the Canon 5D Mark Next comes out, I will be disappointed with Nikon and sell all of my Nikon gear and buy Canon!!!

And, it's easy! Ken Rockwell shows you exactly how to afford stuff ;D


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 8, 2012)

KeithR said:


> 00Q said:
> 
> 
> > why can't people post negative things about canon on this forum?
> ...



And it's not for the fanboys to try to silence any comments other than Canon is the greatest company on Earth and all of their plans are perfect and all of their equipment is without any flaw?

Plus, if all Canon marketing sees is Wow, WOW they are giving us .2fps more and 1 extra half-cross point for AF for $2000 increase on the new body and yay it still has tons of low ISO banding and 2-3 stops less DR than Nikon yay! I will buy ten copies! Then maybe that is all we will ever get and by the time the D900 comes around Canon will look three generations out of touch, which would be a shame because I like their (Canon's) UI a lot better and, for now at least, some of their lens options better.

By smiting anyone who points out anything you are shooting yourselves in the foot. Unless people way slam them to an, OK, perhaps annoying degree, Canon will never ever ever remotely begin to listen.

Plus a post with a title like this, what did you expect? It's fine to not want to waste time on threads like this if you don't want to, nothing remotely wrong with that, but the title made it clear what it was going to be.

That said, I actually think the new 24-70 II looks potentially very impressive. The MTF charts look out of this world. Of course it remains to see if reality matches, but certainly you can't write that lens off at this point in time.


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## bycostello (Feb 8, 2012)

i'd not worry too much about all the bells and whistles, the camera is just the tool, you are the photographer...


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## ghosh9691 (Feb 8, 2012)

bycostello said:


> i'd not worry too much about all the bells and whistles, the camera is just the tool, you are the photographer...



I think you got that the wrong way around, mate! The camera is the photographer, the human is just the tool that manufacturers use to produce and sell new bodies the announcement of which cause internet flame wars!


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 8, 2012)

bycostello said:


> i'd not worry too much about all the bells and whistles, the camera is just the tool, you are the photographer...



Yes, but if you are shooting certain sorts of things 1 fps vs 8fps or terrible 1 pt vs. fantastic multi-point AF can make a very real difference. Sure, even with a body with not much too it and an old sensor you can make some really amazing photos, top rate stuff, maybe better than anything someone with the fanciest body has taken, but you are more constrained as to the types of truly top rate stuff you can reasonably consistently, or even at all, shoot. And don't forget that someone with a top body might also have a very good eye and great skills too. And some people who go on about tech specs have had much more impressive and wide ranging galleries than some of the very same people laughing at them and telling them to go out and shoot (of course the reverse is true too, I'm just saying don't assume too much).


Anyway smite away. I dared mention that some technical detail might occasionally help some actual real life photographer who does go out and shoot and that every item from Canon is not perfect. Horrors. ;D


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## japhoto (Feb 8, 2012)

I've jumped ships once, coming from Olympus to Canon.

I'd like to think that it was for a reason because the E-5 is essentially the last 4/3rds camera ever to be announced. So what I did was to make the switch before the investment lost its value completely.

This is not the case with Canon though and especially when there's more stuff on the pipeline which can be announced quite fast now after Nikon has unveiled the D800. Which by the way isn't cheap or affordable, even though you probably get a lot for the money. I still wouldn't call a 3k camera body cheap...

What comes to Canon being out of touch, definitely goes for Nikon as well.

Canon with their unbelievably long announcement to availability times (although with probably a few good reasons), not willing to implement IS to the 24-70II (not listening to the user base) and bumping up the prices for new lenses and bodies to realms which can not be reached in this economy by most.

Nikon on the other hand has good products and let's face it, has been riding them for far too long. And now it seems that the beast has finally been let loose, but at least with the D800 it seems to have gone overboard. First saying that 12Mp is enough for any man and then going to 36Mp. I can't really understand the reasoning behind it.

It seems that they have gone from the D700, which in today's standards is a niche product due being so old and low Mp to a new really niche product with the D800. I've seen the sample photos (yes, jpg) and I'm not too impressed. Especially when the photos seem to be affected by diffraction quite a bit.

The bump in Mp opens several cans of worms in my opinion (diffraction being only one of them). Firstly their glass is good, but I don't think it's medium format good. Secondly to get good results with the D800 probably needs shooting techniques similar to medium or large format photography. I don't think that goes well with people who have been used to shooting like one shoots with a 35mm camera. On top of that there's probably more noise to be dealt with and yes, the files can get quite large both in camera memory cards and in computers. It wouldn't be bad if the floods wouldn't have affected the hard-drive industry so badly as well.

I don't feel envious for Nikon people, since now they have nowhere to run. If you've been shooting with the D300/s, you can get the D700 which is full frame, but still 12Mp. Same goes for getting a second hand D3/s. The D4 is probably too expensive and the D800 is ridiculous with three times the resolution and forcing you to shoot very differently. The D400 is an interesting thing if and when they come out with it, but for FF people, it's probably a no-go because of the APS-C sensor.

My fear and gripe with Canon and the coming releases is that they really have too strong product lines that they go by. Hopefully I'm wrong about this, but I'm not seeing the 5D successor to get much better AF or much better weather sealing (or build quality in general) for that matter. The D800 might have gone overboard, but it might still be a better all-rounder than Canon will ever produce. For people like me who shoot pretty much anything, it always seems that if you're not rocking the 1D/s - series, there's always a compromise to be made with the body choice. And even the 1D/s series won't remove that compromise since there's more bulk, weight and most importantly an intolerable price tag to go along with those bodies.

Just my 0.02$ about this matter, but conversation is always interesting so do reply if you want.


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## fussy III (Feb 8, 2012)

japhoto said:


> The D800 might have gone overboard, but it might still be a better all-rounder than Canon will ever produce. For people like me who shoot pretty much anything, it always seems that if you're not rocking the 1D/s - series, there's always a compromise to be made with the body choice. And even the 1D/s series won't remove that compromise since there's more bulk, weight and most importantly an intolerable price tag to go along with those bodies.



I agree precisely. The finest conclusion would be to put something on the market like the D3x with 7fps in the Body of the D800 with the label "Canon" written on it. 

If this would have been the configurations for a non-over-the top-Nikon, you'd see me switching after the realease of the 5D III, who will probably either focus slow or imprecise like the 7D.

I have been missing the accuracy of the AI Servo of my EOS 3 and EOS1n for years now in bodies like 20D, 5D II or 7D. Buying a used 1Ds III for three grants in order to make up for AF-deficiencies of the (digital) past seems like a plan of the past, especially when looking at what the D800 already has to offer for the price. 

D800? - Maybe over the top, but TOP anyway.

That is just so ...


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## Astro (Feb 8, 2012)

one thing is sure.. canon does not have such experts as we have here on this forum!!

they all know exactly what THEY need.. but none of them knows what most customers want or need. 

still they repeat the same subjectiv BS over and over and over and over and ov... as anyone beside themself is interested in their opinion. :


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## stilscream (Feb 8, 2012)

I repeat...ONLY 40MP?? damn, that'd be disappointing. I wanted to crop my 24mm to the equivalent of a 600mm lens. If Canon doesn't release a 57MP or higher by March I am switching to Vivitar!


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## japhoto (Feb 8, 2012)

fussy III said:


> japhoto said:
> 
> 
> > The D800 might have gone overboard, but it might still be a better all-rounder than Canon will ever produce. For people like me who shoot pretty much anything, it always seems that if you're not rocking the 1D/s - series, there's always a compromise to be made with the body choice. And even the 1D/s series won't remove that compromise since there's more bulk, weight and most importantly an intolerable price tag to go along with those bodies.
> ...



I'd take a 3Dx innards, 7fps, Canon written on it with a 1D/D3 type body, BUT with a price tag of about 2k€. One can dream though...

I've actually been contemplating about getting a 1Ds MkII, price isn't bad, 16Mp is sufficient, AF is good, weather sealing is good, it's a full frame camera etc. There are a few issues with it though, where to get a mint body at this stage being one, the LCD being pretty much rubbish and old battery technology, but even with those things said, I'm still considering it as a second body to my 7D (which has imprecise AF like you said).


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## japhoto (Feb 8, 2012)

Astro said:


> one thing is sure.. canon does not have such experts as we have here on this forum!!
> 
> they all know exactly what THEY need.. but none of them knows what most customers want or need.
> 
> still they repeat the same subjectiv BS over and over and over and over and ov... as anyone beside themself is interested in their opinion. :



Was this directed to my post above or just generally to everyone who has posted their opinion?


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## awinphoto (Feb 8, 2012)

stilscream said:


> I repeat...ONLY 40MP?? damn, that'd be disappointing. I wanted to crop my 24mm to the equivalent of a 600mm lens. If Canon doesn't release a 57MP or higher by March I am switching to Vivitar!



Vivitar? I was thinking Olympus myself but to each their own haha +1


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## TexPhoto (Feb 8, 2012)

00Q said:


> why can't people post negative things about canon on this forum? Im not slating canon, only to voice my disappointment. You sir seems to be rather narrow minded about your brand.



They can and do all the time. There are countless posts on topics like the 5DII's AF sucking, and more lately about the D800 being the canon killer. Why can't someone else respond to your post with their opinion? 

I have had it with this forum, I am switching to VivitarRumors.com!


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## RuneL (Feb 8, 2012)

These complaints... I've said "I'll switch" but only in anger when my product suddenly didn't work properly or in frustration over noise levels that Nikon seem to master but Canon doesn't quite, or when the IR-triggers in my 580EX IIs for the trillionth time won't fire the flashes because there is a dash of sunligt, a light shower or it's a tuesday. But I'm happy. I can shoot images at 6500 ISO that work perfectly well and get no ill remarks from customers. I bought the product, I register my complaints over what I find lacking in the camera with Canon. That's all I can do. And it's a pretty bloody good camera. Also, I've had a lot of my fellow photographers whine over the D800 saying they won't buy it simple because the MP-count is stupidly high. So each to their own - ok? So, switch, if nikon suits you. In two years you'll be over at NR posting *Re: Latest Nikon disappoints wants me to switch over to Canon.*

A lot of people are raging about IS. Why? Why do you need it, why do you need it on the *16-35 2.8L* a lens I'm perfectly capable at shooting sharp, non blurred images at ridiculous low shutter speeds with? Use mirror lock up or "STEALTH MODE" if it's a huge problem. Or get the EFS 17-85 IS??

IS is very very neat on teles, but I've managed fine without IS on my 70-200, but I think the demand for it has just reached crazy hights, also remember that a lot of us shoot stuff that moves, where IS just doesn't do jack shit. I don't need extra electronics bits that can break and I certainly don't need IS on wide angles. Maybe, just maybe the 24-70 would be neat with IS, but it's nothing that would keep me from buying it. Second, if you need IS in that focal range get the 24-105 IS? You get 35mm extra and at a lower cost too. 

Also, products have a life cycle, not to annoy you at all, not because it's impossible for Canon to wait three or four months and release an N-model with updated and better stats, no, it's because they want to get the best possible return on their investment, they want to suck you dry, as it were. It's a company, not the magical midget fairy lantern unicorn happy imaginary place. They make money by selling cameras. 

Another thing that pisses me of, for years now, LITERALLY YEARS, people have been bitching about "buh huhuhu where is the new 24-70 2.8" and stalling and stalling, not buying the old one because "wait for the new one, it's just around the corner" and now it's here, "too expensive" and "not enough features" and "guess I'm going to buy a used 24-70 I". Wait, it actually makes me a happy, all those people, pissed of because of the wait and now they receive an "unsatisfactory product. hahaha. 

If you want the absolute best of the best get the 1D X. That's where all the newfangled great stuff is in or make do with what you have. IS or more megapixels won't make your pictures better, learning to live with your gear and using it to it's limits will. 

tl:dr

Who gives a shit.


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## altenae (Feb 8, 2012)

> If you want the absolute best of the best get the 1D X. That's where all the newfangled great stuff is in or make do with what you have. IS or more megapixels won't make your pictures better, learning to live with your gear and using it to it's limits will.



+1 (I am with you 100%)


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## V8Beast (Feb 8, 2012)

Maui5150 said:


> I thought you had some fast glass. Nothing below F/4???



What on earth would make you think that? I never made such a claim. If I needed to bulk up by internet street cred with f/2.8 glass, I'd buy it for the sole purpose of listing it in my sig. It just so turns out that with today's ISO capabilities and my shooting needs, f/4 glass is plenty fast.


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## RuneL (Feb 8, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> Maui5150 said:
> 
> 
> > I thought you had some fast glass. Nothing below F/4???
> ...



So, 2.8 or below is useless for anything else than propping up your online ego? That's a bit harsh  I agree, if you don't need it, no point, it's just extra cost and possibly a loss of IQ, but I need my fast lenses. The 50 1.2 is overkill though, it's lovely and all, but to get a properly focused picture out of that thing requires massive amounts of luck/and/or skill with that particular lens. If everyone, including you, is frozen in time, it's easy, but if not... well. Snap more than one. But that the lens requires a bit of effort from you is one of it's charms, I think.


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## V8Beast (Feb 8, 2012)

RuneL said:


> So, 2.8 or below is useless for anything else than propping up your online ego? That's a bit harsh  k.



Absolutely not, although I do see people spending a fortune on fast glass all the time, yet there seems to be of no benefit of that speed when looking at their images. When I'm on assignment, I can't tell you how often some hobbyist with a Rebel asks me why any working photog would should with a 24-105 instead of a 24-70. I guess to them f/2.8 is synonymous with pro gear, regardless of the shooting needs. 

My statement was in response to Maui5150, who for some reason seemed puzzled that I don't own anything faster than f/4 glass. Perhaps he knows something about my own shooting needs that I don't?


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## RuneL (Feb 8, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> RuneL said:
> 
> 
> > So, 2.8 or below is useless for anything else than propping up your online ego? That's a bit harsh  k.
> ...



Well, shooting cars at f 2.8 unless you are doing it dead on is, well, maybe not wrong, but doesn't look all too great.


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## EYEONE (Feb 8, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> RuneL said:
> 
> 
> > So, 2.8 or below is useless for anything else than propping up your online ego? That's a bit harsh  k.
> ...



Speed is the only benefit of f2.8. I buy'em more to kill the background.


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## aeturnum (Feb 8, 2012)

Anyone who sees the latest, greatest camera from any company and thinks, "man, I should switch to that brand because of feature X," is being a little silly. If the feature you like (relatively high megapixels in this case) is successful, the company you already own will release a camera with that feature. They might get there second, but they'll get there eventually.

If you want to switch, you should do so because you like the handling of one brand better than the handling of the other brand. For everything else, the brands will steal the best ideas from each other. 

If it was the year 2000, and Nikon had just released their first DSLR, would you sell all your Canon stuff because they didn't have DSLR out yet? That kind of thinking is just silly.


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## briansquibb (Feb 8, 2012)

TexPhoto said:


> 00Q said:
> 
> 
> > why can't people post negative things about canon on this forum? Im not slating canon, only to voice my disappointment. You sir seems to be rather narrow minded about your brand.
> ...



8) 8) 8) ;D ;D ;D


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## briansquibb (Feb 8, 2012)

2.8 glass works well for me ;D ;D ;D

5DII, 400 f/2.8


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## Picsfor (Feb 8, 2012)

What is it with this "anything above f2.8 is not good enough."?

I don't have anything below f4 (except my 50 f1.8 & 100 f2.8macro) and don't have issues with it.
My f4 zooms are more than adequate for my exposure needs - I have a 5D2!!! ( or2, and yes the AF is their weakest feature)


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## wickidwombat (Feb 8, 2012)

ROFL love these threads...

I actually did the numbers on a switch to nikon yesterday and 
it looks like i would take a fair loss selling all my canon glass and bodies then having to buy D800Es
so it aint gonna happen.

But the proposed specs for the new 5D look like it is going to fix all the issues I have with the 5D mk2... I Hope
another full stop of RAW IQ improvement would be heaven ie 6400 same as current 3200 etc. that would be pretty sweet

I was planning to keep the 5D mk2's as backups to the new bodys but if the AF is that much improved i'll probably sell the mk2's

Overall the mk2 is still, even though its a few years old, an outstanding camera as I've gradually figured out ways around the things I dont like. Still the body shape and size of the 5D is perfect for my uses I really dont want it to be more compact but i dont want it to be more bulky either.

And the rumour of a Canon large MP camera on the horizon is nice too I think a couple of the new 5D with 5D mk2 backups for weddings for me and my wife should be a nice combo for now. 

Still i really would like to see a smaller form factor ASP-H camera come out if canon debuted into the mirrorless space with a high MP APS-H sensor i would be in heaven and that would kick all their competition in the balls as they currently talk up such a big game as having APS-C as big sensors. I really hope the mirrorless option also comes out with an EF adapter to be able to use all the existing glass. I mean when it is all said and done it's the glass that makes the biggest difference. And canons range of glass is outstanding and thats one of the main reasons i shifted over to canon from nikon before. 

Nikon have some great glass too but canon has a bigger range and some stuff nikon dont


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## V8Beast (Feb 9, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> 2.8 glass works well for me ;D ;D ;D
> 
> 5DII, 400 f/2.8



If I shot scantily clad women in low light, I'd opt for f/2.8 glass, too  Back in the days of color slides, I was scared to shoot with anything other than 100 speed film, so f/2.8 or faster glass was necessary, but it's a very nice luxury these days to crank up the ISO far beyond what anyone could have dreamed of 15 years ago.


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## Bruce Photography (Feb 9, 2012)

geniusofnati said:


> Even though, we know the 5D is due for an update, dont be surprised if they annouce it soon. Also we gotta remember, Canon was damaged in the earthquake, so we dont know if they are fully functional yet. However, Canon's market share is killing Nikons. Plus Canon has a prototype that is 128mpixels with 12fps, so they can up the megapixels at will. Also Canon produces the CMOS sensor in house, not Nikon,thats why thier price is always a tad bit high.



That had been true but the D800 sensor is now produced by Nikon. I don't know about the sensor of the D4 - does anyone know if it is Nikon or a Sony sensor. My hope is that delivery of new cameras will follow more closely than the new superteles did. They were announced in August but still have not been delivered to stores. What is going on with these big, very expensive, teles. Are they waiting for the dollar to fall further?


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## ejenner (Feb 9, 2012)

RuneL said:


> Another thing that pisses me of, for years now, LITERALLY YEARS, people have been bitching about "buh huhuhu where is the new 24-70 2.8" and stalling and stalling, not buying the old one because "wait for the new one, it's just around the corner" and now it's here, "too expensive" and "not enough features" and "guess I'm going to buy a used 24-70 I". Wait, it actually makes me a happy, all those people, pissed of because of the wait and now they receive an "unsatisfactory product. hahaha.



Yea, I think they announced the 24-70 II just to clear all the 5DII's off their shelves with people wondering what monstrous surprises the 5DIII will bring.

Get those 5DII's now before they all go and no-one wants to sell theirs!

I know what you mean though about all those people waiting for an updated 24-70 rather than buying what they need now. Now a good idea IMO.


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## altenae (Feb 9, 2012)

Very nice the noise in the Nikon D800....
I will switch to Canon !!!! (funny me)



I would say Canon or Nikon...both have superb DSLR's
Go outside and take pictures instead of telling us that you are going to switch.

Who cares !!!!!


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## xROELOFx (Feb 9, 2012)

altenae said:


> Very nice the noise in the Nikon D800....
> I will switched to Canon !!!! (funny me)
> 
> I would say Canon or Nikon...both have superb DSLR's
> ...


agreed!

stop crying and start taking pictures!


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## mjp (Feb 9, 2012)

My first post in these forums will be in the form of a rant. Apologies ahead of time  

This _"I'm going to switch because so and so created a better camera..."_ line frustrates me every time I read it. Do you really have a need for a 36 megapixel camera, or is that just for bragging rights? I think the majority of people who say things like this have invested very little into photography, lenses and learning their current system. My 5DII & 7D have more than enough megapixels, excellent low light capabilities,are easy to use cameras that help me get the photos I want. Hell, I still use a 6 megapixel Pentax K110D which produces great results. And get this, I often shoot with a 50 year old Voigtlander which also does a great job. And complaining that there is no IS on the 24-70 is ridiculous. Why do you need it at a relatively short zoom range? It is not needed in my opinion. I've also read from so many that Canon should put IS on all primes! That is laughable. 

I'm certainly anticipating and am very interested to see what Canon comes up with next, but I'm not going to rush out the door and buy one until it is absolutely necessary...which might not be for many years. It is very easy to fall down the hole of collecting camera gear just for the sake of having the 'next best thing'. Switch if you must, but if Canon comes up with a 45 megapixel camera, are you going to switch back again? Hope you have unlimited funds! Why not then just buy a Hasselblad H4D and be done with it. Cheers.


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## thepancakeman (Feb 9, 2012)

mjp said:


> My first post in these forums will be in the form of a rant. Apologies ahead of time
> 
> This _"I'm going to switch because so and so created a better camera..."_ line frustrates me every time I read it. Do you really have a need for a 36 megapixel camera, or is that just for bragging rights? I think the majority of people who say things like this have invested very little into photography, lenses and learning their current system. My 5DII & 7D have more than enough megapixels, excellent low light capabilities,are easy to use cameras that help me get the photos I want. Hell, I still use a 6 megapixel Pentax K110D which produces great results. And get this, I often shoot with a 50 year old Voigtlander which also does a great job. And complaining that there is no IS on the 24-70 is ridiculous. Why do you need it at a relatively short zoom range? It is not needed in my opinion. I've also read from so many that Canon should put IS on all primes! That is laughable.



Granted, there are plenty of people with knee jerk reactions and too much $ to spend. However, *I* get really frustrated by people who use the logic of "my camera works great for me, so why should you need anything different?"

I was reading up on the D800 this morning and have to admit I'm tempted. I think it would show a concrete improvement to my (albiet limited) photography income. But this is due to my style, my subjects, and my clients. I don't expect everyone (or anyone, for that matter) to have the same needs as me, so if other bodies or lenses are what they need, great, I'm not going to put them down or question their intellect.

Of course switching to "the dark side" would mean I no longer have use of my wife's $10k lens collection, so I'm going to have to consider pretty carefully!


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## kubelik (Feb 9, 2012)

altenae said:


> Very nice the noise in the Nikon D800....
> I will switch to Canon !!!! (funny me)



in all seriousness, I agree with the noise comments. I'm very surprised at the amount of grain present even in ISO 100 JPGs shown on Nikon's own site. the interior architectural shots at f/8 are even worse; the diffraction is clearly evident in preventing additional detail from being rendered.

I've always been a fan of having more MP in order to crop with / print larger with, but I'm starting to think you just can't beat physics with even a FF sensor. you can only do so much with so many photons. I know Canon's been eyeing the MF market for a little while now; I think they could do awesome things if they came out with an S2-sized sensor.

for an FF sensor it looks like the sweet spot is somewhere in the mid-to-high 20 MP range; I do still hope the future 5DX or 5D Mark III doesn't drop down to 18 MP (22-ish as mentioned in rumors would be nice, but maybe 24MP or 28MP to give a slight step up without entirely compromising the diffraction limit (28 MP FF is about 11 MP on APS-C, near the 40D) and having all that sensor noise appear at low ISOs.

again, color me shocked that 36 MP appears to be too much for a FF sensor to handle, especially given Nikon's recent improvements in its APS-C sensors. here's hoping for a 24MP 5DX!


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## torger (Feb 9, 2012)

kubelik said:


> the interior architectural shots at f/8 are even worse; the diffraction is clearly evident in preventing additional detail from being rendered.



Diffraction issue does not have anything with the format to do, if your goal is to have a large DOF. With larger format you need longer focal lengths for the same FOV, and then need smaller aperture to compensate the DOF and - voilà - no difference. That is medium format and large format struggles with diffraction in the same way. Still people seem to use those formats, at even higher pixel counts... hmm...

What makes diffraction a challenge is the resolving power, 36 megapixel on FF is just as "bad" as 36 megapixel on medium format.

With a high resolution back you can't expect the sensor to be the most limiting factor for all your shots. Instead you are pleased that you have a sensor that max out the expensive lenses you have (probably more money in those than in the camera body) and get the most of your technique. If you think your pixels are not jagged enough for a particular shot, you can always downsize. However, fairly soft pixels both enlarge and sharpen well, so since I do prints I'm not a big fan of low rez jagged pixels a la Sigma (having no AA filter on sub 30 megapixel cameras is a bad idea (tm)).

At some point the pixel count will be "excessive", which would be when center sharpness at ideal apertures (~f/4) does not get much gain. I think that limit is around 45-50 megapixels.


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## altenae (Feb 9, 2012)

@torger



> Diffraction issue does not have anything with the format to do



I have to disagree.
Pixel density matters !




> DLA (Diffraction Limited Aperture) is the result of a mathematical formula that approximates the aperture where diffraction begins to visibly affect image sharpness at the pixel level. Diffraction at the DLA is only barely visible when viewed at full-size (100%, 1 pixel = 1 pixel) on a display or output to a very large print. As sensor pixel density increases, the narrowest aperture we can use to get perfectly pixel sharp images gets wider.



If I read this , I would say 18MP on a 1.6 has a lower DLA aperture then 18MP on a full frame.
The pixel density is higher with the 18mp on a 1.6 ??
The smaller the pixel size the lower the DLA Aperture




> What makes diffraction a challenge is the resolving power, 36 megapixel on FF is just as "bad" as 36 megapixel on medium format.



The 1.6 crop is using less of the lenses glass (resolve power) then the same lens on a FF.
So I would say the FF 36 MP will resolve more detail then 36MP on a 1.6


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## torger (Feb 9, 2012)

altenae said:


> > DLA (Diffraction Limited Aperture) is the result of a mathematical formula that approximates the aperture where diffraction begins to visibly affect image sharpness at the pixel level. Diffraction at the DLA is only barely visible when viewed at full-size (100%, 1 pixel = 1 pixel) on a display or output to a very large print. As sensor pixel density increases, the narrowest aperture we can use to get perfectly pixel sharp images gets wider.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Diffraction is not the only limiting factor. There's also resolving power of the lens. Smaller formats generally have sharper lenses, but not to fully compensate for the smaller format, so at some point lenses start to limit. There's also a limit to how large you can open up the aperture and still have good resolving power from the lens. You may in some formats hit those limits.

36 MP on 1.6 crop then resolving power of the lens is very limiting.

Another thing - a mildly diffraction-softened image responds well to deconvolution sharpening, so one should not be too afraid of it.


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## altenae (Feb 9, 2012)

> Another thing - a mildly diffraction-softened image responds well to deconvolution sharpening, so one should not be too afraid of it.



True.

One thing is certain the amount op resolving power of lenses will end somewhere. (not sure when )


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## lensla (Feb 9, 2012)

I've been lurking these forums for months. But I registered just now to tell the OP that he sounds ridiculous.
Seriously. I'm a former Nikon shooter (that still prefers a number of things about Nikons) and you 
sound like an impatient, petulant child.

First of all, there isn't a professional on this planet that actually thinks the 24-70 needs IS. In fact,
it's easy to sort out the professionals from amateurs based solely on how they feel about there being
no IS on the 24-70. It's a simple test actually. Do you think that the new lens is overpriced because
it has no IS? Congratulations, you're an amateur/hobbyist photographer. Nothing wrong with that, let's 
just not confuse terms here. 

If you want a barely useful (let alone necessary) gimmick like IS on wide focal lengths, then go buy the 
24-105 for less than half the price. A 24-70 focal range lens, especially on a full frame where most
pros will use it, renders IS almost completely useless. Just about every situation (very few) in which IS would
be useful can be covered using proper technique and/or a 100 dollar monopod. Longer focal lengths, sure, IS
makes sense, and is quite useful. But you cannot look at the MTF chart of the newest 24-70, which looks like it
might even blow away some primes in its focal range, and go "oh that's overpriced". It shows your ignorance.
It's a professional lens. A professional tool. The added durability and sealing alone make it worth it for a pro,
they make it back with one or two photo shoots. 

And come on. Complaining about Canon not having an answer for the D800? It's been out for like 
72 hours. Really? I mean, really? Now you're going to whine like the kid who's upset that the 
neighbor boy got a new hot wheels toy and you have to wait 'til Christmas? Come on. Ridiculous. 
Settle down. Obviously Canon is releasing something soon. Wait to see what the specs are.
And stop worrying about unimportant things like IS on a wide angle, and huge megapixels on a 35mm.


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## cps_user (Feb 9, 2012)

Well, newbie, let me tell you - I'm a professional and I..uhm...actually agree with you.


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## D_Rochat (Feb 9, 2012)

lensla said:


> I've been lurking these forums for months. But I registered just now to tell the OP that he sounds ridiculous.
> Seriously. I'm a former Nikon shooter (that still prefers a number of things about Nikons) and you
> sound like an impatient, petulant child.
> 
> ...



I agree with you for the most part, BUT
Going from the current MSRP of the version I & II, there is a 64% increase in price  

If you compare the MSRPs of the 70-200 version I & II (IS) from 2010, there was only a (reasonable) 25% increase.

There was a 67% increase from the version I non IS to the version II IS. 

I think it's pretty reasonable to expect IS in the new 24-70 (needed or not) for that that type of increase in price.


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## briansquibb (Feb 9, 2012)

lensla said:


> If you want a barely useful (let alone necessary) gimmick like IS on wide focal lengths, then go buy the
> 24-105 for less than half the price. .



I am a known non IS person in that I prefer to keep the shutter speed up with iso increases.

However I dont think that it is a gimmic on the 24-105. I find that 1/60 is about the minimum for non motion blur for slow moving humans. Without IS this leads to a problem when at the 100 end of the lens and 1/60 is all I am going to get without impacting IQ. 

I would perhaps agree if you said about no need for IS on lens 50mm or over - but on the 24-105 IS is not a gimic


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## awinphoto (Feb 9, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> lensla said:
> 
> 
> > If you want a barely useful (let alone necessary) gimmick like IS on wide focal lengths, then go buy the
> ...



I agree... there are times IS works, other times it wont... I can buy you a few stops hand holding but wont stop motion blur, and others, like shooting on an airplane or helicopter, no amount of IS will help and shutter speeds need to take over.


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## jaduffy007 (Feb 9, 2012)

kubelik said:


> altenae said:
> 
> 
> > Very nice the noise in the Nikon D800....
> ...



Are you guys seriously ragging on the stellar images of the library interior from the D800? wow. I think the images I've seen from the D800 are outstanding. Wait for it....nope, the world didn't end.


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## barryjphoto (Feb 9, 2012)

I can't wait to see all the Craigslist and Ebay EF lenses after the impatient users jump to Nikon.


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## briansquibb (Feb 9, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > lensla said:
> ...



I understand that - especially on the 400 f/2.8 which I was taking at 1/60 (on a gimbal)

Here is an example where IS has assisted 70-200II on a 1.3 @155mm taken at 1/125

Camera Model: Canon EOS-1D Mark IV
Focal Length: 155.0mm
Aperture: f/2.8
Exposure Time: 0.0080 s (1/125)
ISO equiv: 400


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## lensla (Feb 9, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > lensla said:
> ...



Sorry. I didn't mean for it to sound like it's a gimmick overall. The 105 end of the 24-105 makes the IS useful. Actually in the 80+ range it becomes useful. And the 24-105 is an f/4 making it even more useful than on a 2.8. It'd be a gimmick on the 24-70 2.8.


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## wickidwombat (Feb 9, 2012)

lensla said:


> I've been lurking these forums for months. But I registered just now to tell the OP that he sounds ridiculous.
> Seriously. I'm a former Nikon shooter (that still prefers a number of things about Nikons) and you
> sound like an impatient, petulant child.
> 
> ...



normally I would Ignore a post like this but I'll bite this time, firstly for the most part I agree, MOST Proffessional photographers would not need IS in that focal range for most things they shoot, at a wedding agreed IS dont need it shooting a performance in low light dont need it. However I shoot alot of stuff in operating mine and processing plant enviroments. Now since I dont expect you to have ever shot in this environment but there is a hell of a lot of constant vibration and noise. in so much as you cannot brace yourself against any structure to get better stabilityl because it makes it worse due to the structure vibrating. The Only way is to set a wide stable stance with a slight bend in the knees to soak up some vibrateion tuck you grip of the camera in close to your chest, and to use IS to take the rest of the vibration out. I use the 24-105 f4L IS solely for these shoots I would LOVE to be able to shoot at f2.8 because the environement can often have low, bad or seriously contrasty light granted its a very specific type of shooting condition but one where the only solution to the problem is IS. 
So I would suggest that since you are new perhaps you should take the arrogant tone down a little and behave more like the professional you are  
And i wasnt being sarcastic I really think that you made the statement because you have never had to shoot in an environment in that focal range where IS is critical and I hope that explanation of a specific shooting condition where IS is critical makes the point that IS is usefull.
as I have said before my dream lens is a 24-105 f2.8L IS but I would have settled for a 24-70 f2.8L IS
I may still get the 24-70 mk2 for wedding use if it lives up to the hype but for that other stuff the trusty old 24-105 is gonna keep its job, plus I dont feel so bad when the relatively cheap 24-105 gets covered in mud and all sorts of stuff


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## Orion (Feb 9, 2012)

. . . as far as IS goes, it is almost worthless on a 24-70. Either just by depth of field alone or the fact that if you are shgooting 1/125 +-, you don't need IS. It is of no consequence. For the amount of professional grade glass and coatings on the new 24-70 (and from 77 to 82), for what it's capable of, the price is not a total surprise too. That is why they may come out with IS on a 24/28mm lense so as to satisfy many. . . but to add IS on an alreaday 2200+ lens seems a professional waste of time and high price. 

Imagine what you can do with the 24-70mkII on a 1Dx . . . or a new 5DmkIII. THAT'S where the thoughts should go


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## lensla (Feb 9, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> lensla said:
> 
> 
> > I've been lurking these forums for months. But I registered just now to tell the OP that he sounds ridiculous.
> ...



No, you make a fantastic point. Canon should invest millions of dollars into engineering a lens for the 15 people that shoot under those conditions. 

I will say this though, that post was more about frustration than arrogance. The whole backlash against Canon over this lens and no 5D3 (currently) is quite widespread, and based completely in ignorance. Seeing
it over and over again everywhere... and now an entire thread devoted to this stupidity, it's like road rage.
So, if it came off as arrogance, I apologize, only for that. The tone was of frustration, but it does not change
the content of my posting, which is based completely in logic.


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## thepancakeman (Feb 9, 2012)

lensla said:


> No, you make a fantastic point. Canon should invest millions of dollars into engineering a lens for the 15 people that shoot under those conditions.
> 
> I will say this though, that post was more about frustration than arrogance. The whole backlash against Canon over this lens and no 5D3 (currently) is quite widespread, and based completely in ignorance. Seeing
> it over and over again everywhere... and now an entire thread devoted to this stupidity, it's like road rage.
> ...



And being "based completely in logic" isn't arrogant? Your logic is complete and infallible? I want to be just like you when I get to be 15 too! :-X

Sorry to the rest of you--I seem to have a small/non-existant tolerance today for people who know everything (except of course for Neuro, who actually DOES know everything! ;D )


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## corntrollio (Feb 9, 2012)

Mendolera said:


> love the fact it can crop to 1.5X. Something I would love in a Canon





capertillar said:


> but i do like the 1.2x crop feature the d800 has..



Why is that a useful feature? So you can buy DX lenses to use on your full frame? I don't understand why it'd be useful to do this in camera vs. in post.

Generally speaking, I don't understand why you'd want to crop that much if you're composing right. For wildlife in some cases? Or maybe if you use wide angle lenses in street photography because you feel less sketchy being "stealth," although I see that as more sketchy.

In any case, it doesn't appear to be a reason to prefer a D800. Just crop like you do now.


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## AvTvM (Feb 9, 2012)

I honestly believe, every single new lens - aside from maybe fisheyes - from a camera manufacturer like Canon (or Nikon) that does not offer in-body stabilization should come out with IS. Even if some or many users may or will never use IS, there are way more situations in which it is useful.

There is not a single rational argument against IS:
* IS adds hardly any weight - e.g. the EF 70-200/4 L with IS is exactly 55grams heavier than the non-IS version
* IS does not add size - e.g. the EF 70-200/4 L IS has exactly the same dimensions as the non-L variant
* IS does not make a lens less sharp or otherwise optically inferior ... e.,g. the EF 70-200 4 L IS is sharper than the non-IS variant
* IS is dirt cheap ... I bet it costs Canon less than 50 $/€ on a non-supertele lens like e.g. the 24-70

I find the 24-70 II at a price tag of € 2299 just ludicrous without IS. ALso, the MTF is worth rather little, as Canon publishes "theoretical/calculated" MTFs ... as opposed to Zeiss who publish "real/measured" MTFs. Furthermore, a major improvement over the rather mediocre 24-70 Mk I was and is absolutely necessary ... so the Mk. II better be really good. 

I am however, not going to switch to Nikon (yet), because I am a fairly happy APS-C hobbyist (7D) and love my 17-55 with IS ... which by the way is optically better than the 24-70 L Mk I over the entire overlapping focal range ... "despite" having IS! Nikon has (still) no 17-55 with IS - and that was one of the main reasons I did not switch from my earlier 40D to Nikons D300 but waited for the 7D. 

If Nikon brings out a D400 which bests the 7D by the same margin the D800 bests the 5D II ... I will reconsider again. 

And, take this Canon fanboys: should I ever switch to FF, I will definitely consider the Tamron 24-70 with VC and USM at probably less than half of the price of a Canon 24-70 without IS - no matter whether my future FF camera will be made by Canon or Nikon.


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## M.R.Rafsanjani (Feb 9, 2012)

Its all about the marketing strategies I think. Not to worry.


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## briansquibb (Feb 10, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> * IS does not make a lens less sharp or otherwise optically inferior ... e.,g. the EF 70-200 4 L IS is sharper than the non-IS variant
> * IS is dirt cheap ... I bet it costs Canon less than 50 $/€ on a non-supertele lens like e.g. the 24-70
> 
> I find the 24-70 II at a price tag of € 2299 just ludicrous without IS.



Lets deal with this point at a time:

* IS does not make a lens less sharp or otherwise optically inferior 

An IS lens is a different design from a non IS. It is not just a question of slapping on a gizmo. Precedent of the 70-200 f/2.8 meant that the non IS version was market leading when introduced. The IS version had significantly worse IQ.

* IS is dirt cheap

Manufacturing cost may be low - but R&D is very high per unit sold. It is a brand new lens design.

* I find the 24-70 II at a price tag of € 2299 just ludicrous without IS

The price tag is Canon's top dollar price, street price will be significantly lower

This lens in a pro lens - if the quality is at the level indicated in the published MTF charts then there will be a move away from prime lens to this zoom. This has already happened with the 70-200 f/2.8II (which I believe will be about the same street price as the 24-70II)

In the pro world $2000 does not make it an expensive lens. Look at a sports event at the large whites which are probably well over $5000 each.

IS is not such an issue for the majority of the intended market for this lens. If they get 95% of market penetration then that will be a sucess for them.

I suggest we wait for the reviews to come through before we judge and come to any conclusions. History is littered with prejudgements that have proved unfounded in the harsh light of day


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## SF DTM (Feb 10, 2012)

On Tuesday I seriously went through the whole "switching to Nikon" conversation with a couple buddies. The D4 looks sexy as hell but I have a 1DX Pre-Ordered and after 3 days of going back and forth i'm giving Canon the benefit of the doubt and going to give them some time to explain what's been going on. 

They haven't dropped the ball yet but not keeping in touch with their customers is just frustrating as hell. Nikon is constantly giving their customers info and every time they announce a new camera - the pre-orders are ready to be taken and everything is good. I feel like Canon always just rushes their announcements just to shut people up. 

Now just waiting for high res ISO samples >_<


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## kennykodak (Feb 10, 2012)

SF DTM said:


> On Tuesday I seriously went through the whole "switching to Nikon" conversation with a couple buddies. The D4 looks sexy as hell but I have a 1DX Pre-Ordered and after 3 days of going back and forth i'm giving Canon the benefit of the doubt and going to give them some time to explain what's been going on.
> 
> They haven't dropped the ball yet but not keeping in touch with their customers is just frustrating as hell. Nikon is constantly giving their customers info and every time they announce a new camera - the pre-orders are ready to be taken and everything is good. I feel like Canon always just rushes their announcements just to shut people up.



likewise i have a 1DX on pre-order and the camera shop crunching the numbers to switch to Nikon.


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## EYEONE (Feb 10, 2012)

SF DTM said:


> On Tuesday I seriously went through the whole "switching to Nikon" conversation with a couple buddies. The D4 looks sexy as hell but I have a 1DX Pre-Ordered and after 3 days of going back and forth i'm giving Canon the benefit of the doubt and going to give them some time to explain what's been going on.
> 
> They haven't dropped the ball yet but not keeping in touch with their customers is just frustrating as hell. Nikon is constantly giving their customers info and every time they announce a new camera - the pre-orders are ready to be taken and everything is good. I feel like Canon always just rushes their announcements just to shut people up.
> 
> Now just waiting for high res ISO samples >_<



Explain to me why the D4 is more appealing than the 1Dx. Other than the fact that it's "sexy as hell" and will be out 30 days before the 1Dx. I'm just curious.


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## briansquibb (Feb 10, 2012)

I cant believe that people are getting ready to jump ship when neither body has had a full review and neither is shipping.

OK - talk through this scenario then:

One buys the D4 and loses a whole bunch of money on the lens etc

A month later the 1DX is reviewed and shown to be hands down better than the D4

What would you do next?

- go back to Canon and lose more money?
- suffer an inferior product for the next 2 or 3 years until the replacements are announced?


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## thepancakeman (Feb 10, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I cant believe that people are getting ready to jump ship when neither body has had a full review and neither is shipping.
> 
> OK - talk through this scenario then:
> 
> ...



I agree, when you're talking about the 1DX vs. the D4. But as Neuro pointed out elsewhere, if you're comparing the D800 to....? The 5D Mk II? Canon needs to have some sort of announcement before that thing starts shipping or we're stuck waiting for a body that might never arrive.


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## briansquibb (Feb 10, 2012)

thepancakeman said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > I cant believe that people are getting ready to jump ship when neither body has had a full review and neither is shipping.
> ...



The same argument applies - if you have a 5DII do you _*NEED*_ to move in the next couple of months or can you wait patiently to see what happens for a couple of months? Making the wrong decision based on short term desire might cost a lot more than waiting


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## thepancakeman (Feb 10, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> thepancakeman said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



Sorta. But _how long_ do you wait? People have been expecting the Mk III to appear any minute now for at least a year. So yeah, we would HOPE that something is coming soon, but there by no means a guarantee. That's why I think Canon needs to at least announce something soon or people are just going to be too tired of the waiting.


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## RuneL (Feb 10, 2012)

Whatever we do we will "lose". Something better will always come along. It makes little to no sense speculating in what will be released and when. 6 months later something better will be available regardless of what you do.

Buy, enjoy, don't get upset. They make money from us.


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## briansquibb (Feb 10, 2012)

thepancakeman said:


> Sorta. But _how long_ do you wait? People have been expecting the Mk III to appear any minute now for at least a year. So yeah, we would HOPE that something is coming soon, but there by no means a guarantee. That's why I think Canon needs to at least announce something soon or people are just going to be too tired of the waiting.



I would wait until I *need* to change not because I would like to change.

I bought a used 1Ds3 as a tactical purchase as an upgrade for my 5D2 - series 1 waterproofing, Af and 5fps etc. Only limitation is the max iso 3200 - which for me is not an issue. In return I have much better pictures coming through.

I dont claim that Nikon is better than Canon or Canon is better than Nikon. They both have their strengths and weaknesses.

When I bought my 5D2 the only camera that gave a better IQ was the 1Ds3. That is still the case I believe, that is until the latest generation overtake them - but we have no reviews yet that verifies that

I believe that the quality of an image is more than mps - so mps on their own dont excite me unless there is insufficient to get a top A2 image - which 21mp gets.

The cameras dont get worse as they get older - the 5DII is still giving the same top IQ as it did 2 years ago. That was good enough then and is good enough now (although I prefer the 1Ds3 colors).

To improve the IQ of the images the manufacturers need to get the image better than the best film - which has not happened because of he limited dynamic range from digital sensors.

In my usual way here is a pretty picture from the 1Ds3 which I took today

1Ds3, [email protected], iso400, f/4.5, 1/100


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## thepancakeman (Feb 10, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I would wait until I *need* to change not because I would like to change.



Gotcha this time! Unless you're putting bread on the table and a roof over your head with your photography, you don't _*need*_ to take pictures. We do it because it's fun, rewarding, self-expressive, etc, but us non-pros don't _*need*_ a camera at all. : 

So whether it's a want for better AF, more MP, or simply something that doesn't have scuff marks on it, there are plenty of consumers looking for a new camera right now. As RuneL points out, there is always something theoretically better just on the horizon, so waiting for the next great thing can be a never ending process.

If it just weren't for the investment in the dang glass, it'd be easy to be more brand agnostic and go with whatever seems good when I _*want*_ a new camera.


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## briansquibb (Feb 10, 2012)

thepancakeman said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > I would wait until I *need* to change not because I would like to change.
> ...



'If it just weren't for the investment in the dang glass, it'd be easy to be more brand agnostic ' 

If the finance is not a deal breaker then switching brands is not an issue. 

As we are talking about top of the range then there is a strong likelyhood that there is a significant invesment in glass and other brand specific extras which increase the probability of financial influence on changing brands.

Each individual has their own perceived wants and needs.

I am just suggesting that before jumping to stop and consider the needs (as defined by themselves - even a scuff becomes a need for some). 

However a brand new technology D800 will always look sweet against a four year 5DII. To wait until the D800 has been reviewed might well be a prudent minimum wait time. 

We are talking top of range here so there are other tactical options available if the need to upgrade is needed (like a 7D/5DII?) from a consumer body


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