# 60D better sensor than the 7D?



## wuschba (Sep 2, 2010)

A German technical magazin announces the 60D with the words, that the sensor is in size and pixels like the one for the 7D, but was "slightly reengineered to have a better sensitivity to light".

Would this mean the 60D gets a better sensor than the 7D?


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## Peerke (Sep 2, 2010)

Don't you think that Canon would have given that info when they announced it?

By the way, the 6400 ISO images of the 60D on dpreview are not bad at all in my opinion. Not that I will buy one .


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## wuschba (Sep 2, 2010)

Well I was wondering as well from which source this information could come... Therefore my Q here.


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 2, 2010)

Email the people who put out that information, that's the best way you'll find out.

I'll wait until DP Review looks at the camera in-depth...I also would check http://www.dxomark.com to see how it ranks. Currently all the 18mp cameras with the sensor (or a similar one...) are at 66 points on DxO (7D, T2i preproduction and production models).


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## Rocky (Sep 2, 2010)

Peerke said:


> Don't you think that Canon would have given that info when they announced it?
> 
> By the way, the 6400 ISO images of the 60D on dpreview are not bad at all in my opinion. Not that I will buy one .



Even if it is better, Canon will never admit it. Otherwise they cannot justify the premium price of 7D. Would you buy a 7D if the 60D will give you a better picture???


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## Peerke (Sep 2, 2010)

No, I won't buy a 60D and probably not a 7D. My 40D suits me well. I don't have to make a living with the camera, so I don't need the latest technology.

Maybe one day, when the 5dIII is out and the price of the 5dII is to my liking, I will buy a second hand 5dII and a wide angle for my landscape shooting, but only when I feel that I improved enough to deserve the quality of the 5dII :.


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## Rocky (Sep 2, 2010)

Peerke said:


> No, I won't buy a 60D and probably not a 7D. My 40D suits me well. I don't have to make a living with the camera, so I don't need the latest technology.
> 
> Maybe one day, when the 5dIII is out and the price of the 5dII is to my liking, I will buy a second hand 5dII and a wide angle for my landscape shooting, but only when I feel that I improved enough to deserve the quality of the 5dII :.


I am in the same situation as you. I am trying to hang on my 40D as long as I can. I have check the focus matching of my 17-40 with the 40D, It is a perfect match. Also the 35-135 is the same perfect match. So I do not need the Micro adjustment yet.


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 3, 2010)

If you don't have money for a new camera, by all means keep the 40D until it breaks. I want to ditch the T1i because it doesn't perform well in many situations for me, so I feel ready to "step up" to the next level (faster FPS, better low-light, etc.) For landscapes (admittedly still the majority of what I shoot) the T1i (for example) is still just fine.


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## unexposure (Sep 3, 2010)

wuschba said:


> A German technical magazin announces the 60D with the words, that the sensor is in size and pixels like the one for the 7D, but was "slightly reengineered to have a better sensitivity to light".
> 
> Would this mean the 60D gets a better sensor than the 7D?


Are you referring to http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Canonenschlag-EOS-60D-und-vier-neue-EF-Objektive-1066140.html? 

I'm gonna drop an e-mail to heise.de asking where they got the info from.


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## Peerke (Sep 3, 2010)

> Quote from: wuschba on September 02, 2010, 08:03:55 PM
> A German technical magazin announces the 60D with the words, that the sensor is in size and pixels like the one for the 7D, but was "slightly reengineered to have a better sensitivity to light".
> 
> Would this mean the 60D gets a better sensor than the 7D?
> ...



The link indeed mentions the slightly improved technology on the 60D sensor. Hopefully you will get an answer and share it with us. Again, not that I will be buying the 60D, but I'm just curious.




> If you don't have money for a new camera, by all means keep the 40D until it breaks. I want to ditch the T1i because it doesn't perform well in many situations for me, so I feel ready to "step up" to the next level (faster FPS, better low-light, etc.) For landscapes (admittedly still the majority of what I shoot) the T1i (for example) is still just fine.



It is not the money that keeps me away from a more expensive and technologically advanced camera. My 40D is working fine for me with the glass I have (EF S 10-22, EF S 17-55 2.8, EF 70-200 4.0, EF 400 5.6, Sigma 150 mm macro) and the skills I have as a photographer. I'm still learning a lot. I'm just affraid that a 7D or 5DII is a complete waste of money if one has the skill I have now. It doesn't make sence to buy a $10,000.- mountain bike if you have to learn to ride a bike, does it?

OK, you feel your T1i lets you down, reason enough for you to invest in more advanced equipment. A pitty that you immidiatly conclude that people who won't spend money are poor gready bast....


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 4, 2010)

Man, people are quick to take things the wrong way. You two (Rocky and Peerke) are imagining things. If I had said "lots of people are happy with their cameras, which is fine by me (and none of my business), but for my purposes, the T1i falls short sometimes" you wouldn't have read into what I wrote. I hope your equipment continues to serve you well for a long time...I can see where you're imagining that I am wishing ill, but that strikes me as more than a little stretch.

I would also like to be able to do everything with just one camera, forever, but feature creep and simple technological advancement means that sometimes the new cameras promise to perform a lot better for me than older models. Low light especially (though for the best low-light performance and other features I'd prefer a 1D(s) Mark IV...obviously, money prevents this).


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## unexposure (Sep 5, 2010)

hey gusy! your offtopic. ;-)

I got a response from heise, saying the journalist having wrote the article is currently unavaible due to his presence at the ifa. tuesday he'll be back and i should call him (gave me the number).

so info about whether there is really somethin new in 60D-sensor that makes it better than 7D or not, will be available tuesday pm (GMT).


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 5, 2010)

Rocky said:


> Edwin Herdman said:
> 
> 
> > If you don't have money for a new camera, by all means keep the 40D until it breaks.
> ...


I don't know where you get off saying that you know what I meant to say better than I did. I think "a man" would have the guts to admit that they were wrong, and not insist that their own mistaken reading counts for more than the intention. I've already done my part and admitted that I understand why you'd think that I meant something mean-spirited after reading my first post, but for you to insist my explanation isn't good enough means the problem now is solely yours. Again...I didn't mean anything negative, so you need to leave it alone.

I agree with unexposure, it's time to move back to the original topic!

@ unexposure:

I wonder if they could possibly mean the autofocus-sensor, which has the new cross-type sensor which is reportedly "extra sensitive" at f/2.8.


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## MintMark (Sep 5, 2010)

I have read in a couple of places that the 60D uses the same low pass filter as the 7D, so maybe the "slightly re-engineered" quote is with respect to the 550D? We'll find out in the detailed reviews...


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## Rocky (Sep 5, 2010)

MintMark said:


> I have read in a couple of places that the 60D uses the same low pass filter as the 7D, so maybe the "slightly re-engineered" quote is with respect to the 550D? We'll find out in the detailed reviews...


The CMOS sensor of 7D is of 8 channel readout while the 60D is of 4 channel readout. Therefore the circuitry part of both sensors are not identical.


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## unexposure (Sep 7, 2010)

I just called the journalist at heise. He told me, the info about the 60D-sensor came out of a conversation with the canon-product manager.
He said he was told, that the 60D uses a reengineered 7D Sensor to achieve a better ISO-noise-ratio, but nothing concrete about how it works.

so I guess we'll have to wait for some compareable sample-pics to see what they did at canon.


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## ELK (Sep 7, 2010)

unexposure said:


> I just called the journalist at heise. He told me, the info about the 60D-sensor came out of a conversation with the canon-product manager.
> He said he was told, that the 60D uses a reengineered 7D Sensor to achieve a better ISO-noise-ratio, but nothing concrete about how it works.
> 
> so I guess we'll have to wait for some compareable sample-pics to see what they did at canon.



Thanks for your efforts!


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## wuschba (Sep 7, 2010)

Year thanks very much. If it's true that would give one point plus for the 60D in my eyes compared to the 7D.


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## Rocky (Sep 7, 2010)

unexposure said:


> I just called the journalist at heise. He told me, the info about the 60D-sensor came out of a conversation with the canon-product manager.
> He said he was told, that the 60D uses a reengineered 7D Sensor to achieve a better ISO-noise-ratio, but nothing concrete about how it works.
> 
> so I guess we'll have to wait for some compareable sample-pics to see what they did at canon.


Thanks, I hope it is true. However, I feel a little bit strange about it. Why Canon will reengineering the 7D sensor to use on a lower body and ends up wityh a better picture than the 7D?? It will take away the sales from the 7D. Unless Canon is using 60D as a beta test site. So I agree with you that we should wait and see a comparision test between the 60D and the 7D.


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## unexposure (Sep 8, 2010)

I guess, one of the "problems" of 7D regarding IQ are the wires. As it uses 8channel Readout, rather than 4channel, this might cause some more signal noise. I now have read several times, that 550D-Sensor is a little bit better in the higher ISO-modes than 7D, but overall they're not so much different. 
If that's true, that t2i-sensor delivers a better iso-performance than 7d, I'd say this: _"As you'll see below, the engineers have managed to eke out just a bit more crispness and detail in the Canon 60D than in its already-excellent predecessor."_ is real promising.

Read the whole Review here: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E60D/E60DA.HTM
This includes some hi-res pics in serveral iso-settings from the same location/perspective taken by 60D and rebel t2i - even available as raw.

My first thought was: Pretty nice. Starting at 1600 a slight but noticeable difference shows up. 
Wished they had included some pics shot with 7d, too. :-(


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## unexposure (Sep 8, 2010)

Addition to my previous post: 
http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM using this comparometer, you can compare several images taken under the same conditions. My impression is, that in words of detail-preservance at given noise is (C-60D?)>C-550D>C-7D>N-D90>C-50D


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## unexposure (Sep 9, 2010)

unexposure said:


> Addition to my previous post:
> http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM using this comparometer, you can compare several images taken under the same conditions. My impression is, that in words of detail-preservance at given noise is (C-60D?)>C-550D>C-7D>N-D90>C-50D


The guys at imaging-resource.com and my guess to statement above were pretty right. I just got a mail from canon-support, regarding the sensor of the 60D:

Translation (in my bad english) goes here:
"The sensor of the EOS 60D is indeed a reengineering of the EOS 550D sensor. It is more light-sensitive and uses the same improved filters as used infront of the EOS 7D sensor. Taking this into account, noise-ratio and light-sensivity should be slightly better than in EOS 550D"


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## Jan (Sep 9, 2010)

wuschba said:


> Year thanks very much. If it's true that would give one point plus for the 60D in my eyes compared to the 7D.


Well, even IF the 60D's sensor was slightly more sensitive than the 7D's you won't probably see the difference. So this is not a point to make a decision whether to buy a 60D or 7D in my opinion.


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## unexposure (Sep 9, 2010)

Jan said:


> wuschba said:
> 
> 
> > Year thanks very much. If it's true that would give one point plus for the 60D in my eyes compared to the 7D.
> ...


Let me guess, you didn't even checked the link to imaging-ressource.com i postet, right?
Just go there, get yourself the raw-files provided and compare them. There's already a pretty noticable difference in noise-levels made by this pre-production 60D when compared to the T2i.


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## Jan (Sep 9, 2010)

unexposure said:


> Jan said:
> 
> 
> > wuschba said:
> ...



I'm sorry, but couldn't find the EOS 60D in the comperator...


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 9, 2010)

It's worth mentioning that the T2i preproduction model scored about 50 points higher on DxOMark for ISO than the production model. That said this does sound promising, especially if the difference is visible (we don't have access to the DxO RAWs so it's taking them on faith that the preproduction T2i had better ISO).


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## Jan (Sep 9, 2010)

Edwin Herdman said:


> It's worth mentioning that the T2i preproduction model scored about 50 points higher on DxOMark for ISO than the production model. That said this does sound promising, especially if the difference is visible (we don't have access to the DxO RAWs so it's taking them on faith that the preproduction T2i had better ISO).


Why does this sound promising, when a preproduction model is better than a production model?

By the way: I don't understand how the points are calculated. When you look at the SNR 18% chart, comparing 550D pp and 550D you can clearly see that there is absolutely no difference.


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## unexposure (Sep 9, 2010)

Jan said:


> I'm sorry, but couldn't find the EOS 60D in the comperator...


Sorry, I didn't want to sound rude.

Here's the Link for 60D Images http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E60D/E60DGALLERY.HTM
Here the one for T2i Images http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/T2I/T2IGALLERY.HTM

You have to scroll down a bit. The pics to compare are the ones taken in the ancient looking room. Beneath the preview pics (click em to see the full-size jpg) are the links to the raw-files (.cr2).


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 10, 2010)

Jan said:


> Edwin Herdman said:
> 
> 
> > It's worth mentioning that the T2i preproduction model scored about 50 points higher on DxOMark for ISO than the production model. That said this does sound promising, especially if the difference is visible (we don't have access to the DxO RAWs so it's taking them on faith that the preproduction T2i had better ISO).
> ...


I missed a comma in there. It should say:

"That said, this does sound promising, especially [...]"



> By the way: I don't understand how the points are calculated. When you look at the SNR 18% chart, comparing 550D pp and 550D you can clearly see that there is absolutely no difference.


Not sure what you mean. When you look at the SNR 18% chart for the T2i, look at both cameras' ISO 12800 points - for the T2i preproduction they measured 9531 in actuality, for a SNR of 19.4 dB; the measured ISO of the production model has a value of ISO 10,222 for the same point, for a slightly lower SNR of 19.1 dB. At the low end of the ISO scale the situation is reversed.

Additional: For an explanation how they come to their ISO sensitivity rankings, look here.


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 12, 2010)

Missed this up to now, a quote from this page:



> The Canon rep we spoke with claims they've narrowed the space between the micro lenses on the 60D's image sensor to create "gapless microlenses" which absorb more light and help reduce noise. While we can't give a verdict on image quality since it was a pre-production camera we were testing, we can say the 60D fared a lot better than expected at ISO 1600-3200. (See some examples of images we shot on the next page.)


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## Rocky (Sep 12, 2010)

Edwin Herdman said:


> Missed this up to now, a quote from this page:
> 
> 
> 
> > The Canon rep we spoke with claims they've narrowed the space between the micro lenses on the 60D's image sensor to create "gapless microlenses" which absorb more light and help reduce noise. While we can't give a verdict on image quality since it was a pre-production camera we were testing, we can say the 60D fared a lot better than expected at ISO 1600-3200. (See some examples of images we shot on the next page.)


Something is fishy here. The 7D is already a gapless micro lens set up.


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## Jan (Sep 13, 2010)

Rocky said:


> Edwin Herdman said:
> 
> 
> > Missed this up to now, a quote from this page:
> ...


Yap, exactly. Even the 550D's sensors has gapless microlenses, I think.


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## unexposure (Sep 13, 2010)

Jan said:


> Rocky said:
> 
> 
> > Edwin Herdman said:
> ...


Just to clarify this:
550D same as 7D and 60D all have gapless microlens architecture. The difference (as i understood it) is: The (lowpass)filters attached to the sensor is a minor version used for 550D/t2i and a better one in 7D. 60D however uses the same Filter-solution used in 7D but uses tight to "gapless" sticking (is this the right word?) to the sensor, which itself is an improved 550D-Sensor, regarding light-sensivity.
As conclusion: In theory, 60D-Sensor (in whole) should perform better regarding noise and general performance than 7D and 550D should.


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