# What’s next from Canon?



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 11, 2019)

> If you follow a rumours site, it’s likely you always want to know what’s coming next. The following is what we have been told about over the last few weeks.
> First up. obviously the Canon EOS-1D X Mark III is coming soon, we hear that shipping will begin in late February or early March after an official announcement in late January 2020.
> There will be a new EOS R series camera announced in early February, it will be the high megapixel replacement for the EOS 5DS/5DS R, it will be equipped with Canon’s next-generation sensors, DIGIC processors and a new form factor that will include the smart controller we first saw on the EOS-1D X Mark III. This will not be the “pro” body that people are clamouring for, but it will be upmarket from the EOS R.
> 
> Canon will announce another 4-6 RF lenses in the first half of 2020, there is going to be a total of 8 new lenses coming next year we...



Continue reading...


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## melgross (Nov 11, 2019)

Well, the high Rez mirrorless body is what a bunch of us here have been waiting for.

so, that body, and three fast zooms will all that I would need for most things, plus a high quality 100mm, or so, macro. My daughter seems to have misplaced the 100mm EF.


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## Joules (Nov 11, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> This will not be the “pro” body that people are clamouring for, but it will be upmarket from the EOS R.


What's that supposed to mean? It can't be a proper 5DS replacement without being a pro camera, or does it? I understood those terms to mean that the camera has two card slots and a bit better weather sealing than the R. Maybe an upgraded viewfinder.

With over a year of additional development time and a price tag above the R, I would have considered these a given.

What is the high res R expected to be missing?


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## IcyBergs (Nov 11, 2019)

I think what everybody is clamoring for is a true 5D series R body, call that "pro" or not, but that's what we want. I just wonder if this 5DS/r R replacement will be enough for some/most people in that camp to jump over to the R. Will be interesting to see. Especially as these RF lenses continue to tantalize.

I've never been in the market for a 5DS/r but depending on the specs for this R replacement (7-8fps range cleanish iso 6400), who knows it might be time to make the move.


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## Stuart (Nov 11, 2019)

Bring it on Canon, its exciting seeing what becomes possible with new mounts and technology.


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## SecureGSM (Nov 11, 2019)

IcyBergs said:


> I think what everybody is clamoring for is a true 5D series R body, call that "pro" or not, but that's what we want. I just wonder if this 5DS/r R replacement will be enough for some/most people in that camp to jump over to the R. Will be interesting to see. Especially as these RF lenses continue to tantalize.
> 
> I've never been in the market for a 5DS/r but depending on the specs for this R replacement (7-8fps range cleanish iso 6400), who knows it might be time to make the move.


At rumored 80Mb+ sensor resolution, this body will require a helluvalot of image stabilisation and is DLA-ed already at F6.3.
not sure 7-8FPS speed is a requirement for a tripod mounted camera and nor is a high ISO capabilities.


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## amorse (Nov 11, 2019)

Joules said:


> What's that supposed to mean? It can't be a proper 5DS replacement without being a pro camera, or does it? I understood those terms to mean that the camera has two card slots and a bit better weather sealing than the R. Maybe an upgraded viewfinder.
> 
> With over a year of additional development time and a price tag above the R, I would have considered these a given.
> 
> What is the high res R expected to be missing?


I've always thought the the perspective of many was that the only thing that qualified as a professional body was a 1D-style body. I suspect the higher resolution body may not be really missing anything, but rather it isn't the speed demon and built like the tank that the 1D is.


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## Cryve (Nov 11, 2019)

Ive got an interesting story as to why im possibly very interested in the high mp canon eos r camera.


over the past two years i felt a bit let down by canon for not supporting the "low budged" wildlife community as much as wished for. I had really hoped for the 7d iii and when the rumors about no 7d iii and only a 90d showed up i was very disappointed.
Then i saw sony announcing and releasing the 200-600 and the a7r iv, which seemed to me like everything i had whished for in a portable wildlife setup, so i bought the camera.

But for the last two months i only had problems with the sony setup. my plan was to use my sigma 150-600 sport with canon mount on a sigma mc11 adapter until i could save enough money to buy the sony 200-600. With the adapted lens i had a big backfocus at 600mm and couldnt really use it. So i speed up my saving and quickly bough the 200-600 but i had the same backfocus on that too, so i sent it back.
I then tested my sony a7r iv with a completly different 200-600 at my dealer and again the backfocus. My dealer then exchanged it against a new a7r iv... but still the same backfocus.
I even sent in bouth of my sony a7r iv for repair but they said they cant do anything about it (only sent in the body, not the lens).

Now im visiting my dad and checked out the camera store near his city and tried out their a7r iv and 200-600 they had... again a backfocus.

I dont know why noone so far has talked about this problem. Maybe they dont pixelpeep enough.
Well ... at this point it seems to me like sony is really a huge let down for me.

So i look forward to that canon, but im afraid it probably wont focus well enough for wildlife, what do you guys think?


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## TominNJ (Nov 11, 2019)

Im a 5D IV shooter. I’m interested if it has focus bracketing that works with at least some of my lenses. If not then I’ll wait and see what the new 5D camera has.


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## IcyBergs (Nov 11, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> At rumored 80Mb+ sensor resolution, this body will require a helluvalot of image stabilisation and is DLA-ed already at F6.3.
> not sure 7-8FPS speed is a requirement for a tripod mounted camera and nor is a high ISO capabilities.



Agreed, not a requirement. I'm not in the target market for this body, but I'm interested to see if the the full spec list and how many who are waiting for the 5D all-arounder are going to be tempted. The premise of 80mp as rumored would probably not cut it, but that like everything else is just a rumor. If we see something in the 60mp range than things could be different.

Remember, once upon a time Canon had a very consolidated camera line-up. 5D was the high resolution body back in the mk2 days. It wasn't until the dslr boom of the late 00's that Canon started to split the segments up ie (7d, 6d, later 5ds). We might be headed back to those days except this time on a full-frame only platform.

RP - Rebel/Kiss/xxxd
R- XXd
Rumored R - 5D
Future R - 1D 

At some point I will buy an R body, nothing released has gotten me to do it yet. With each one that is subsequently released I'll be asking myself the same question, and as long as everything is just a rumor...I'll continue to speculate.


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## Adelino (Nov 11, 2019)

amorse said:


> I've always thought the the perspective of many was that the only thing that qualified as a professional body was a 1D-style body. I suspect the higher resolution body may not be really missing anything, but rather it isn't the speed demon and built like the tank that the 1D is.


Canon have outright stated that is what they consider pro. A LOT of pros consider other cameras pro.


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## SecureGSM (Nov 11, 2019)

> ... but I'm interested to see if the the full spec list and how many who are waiting for the 5D all-arounder are going to be tempted ...


not many. for the reason I have stated above. 5DS/R is a specialist camera, same as the high res R. good for studio, landscapes, city scapes, fashion, products.. not great for events, PJ and any sort of run and gun photography.


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## RiceCanon (Nov 11, 2019)

I'd be very interested in a high megapixel mirrorless camera but only if it has specs good for birding/wildlife, namely great focus and tracking, good high ISO performance and fast fps. Introduce it with a new 100-400 or 200-600 lens and I'm on board!


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## Joules (Nov 11, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> not great for events, PJ and any sort of run and gun photography.


For what reason specifically would you expect that to be the case with the high res R as well?


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## zonoskar (Nov 11, 2019)

EOS-M50-II please


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## Joules (Nov 11, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> At rumored 80Mb+ sensor resolution, this body will require a helluvalot of image stabilisation and is DLA-ed already at F6.3.
> not sure 7-8FPS speed is a requirement for a tripod mounted camera and nor is a high ISO capabilities.


This camera will require no more image stabilization and won't have worse high ISO capabilities than any lower resolution equivalents.

It's just when you want to take full advantage of the additional detail you can capture with such a sensor that it becomes more challenging. But on a lower res model, it is simply impossible - so that's not a disadvantage.

I'm very curious where the 5D V will end up fitting in the line up.


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## Viggo (Nov 11, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> At rumored 80Mb+ sensor resolution, this body will require a helluvalot of image stabilisation and is DLA-ed already at F6.3.
> not sure 7-8FPS speed is a requirement for a tripod mounted camera and nor is a high ISO capabilities.


More like at f 4.5


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## M. D. Vaden of Oregon (Nov 11, 2019)

IcyBergs said:


> I think what everybody is clamoring for is a true 5D series R body, call that "pro" or not, but that's what we want. I just wonder if this 5DS/r R replacement will be enough for some/most people in that camp to jump over to the R. Will be interesting to see. Especially as these RF lenses continue to tantalize.
> 
> I've never been in the market for a 5DS/r but depending on the specs for this R replacement (7-8fps range cleanish iso 6400), who knows it might be time to make the move.



I've got the 5DS / 5DSR and use it at weddings. It's really as pro as the 5D mk iii or 5D mk iv had it mirrored the latter. I think how its higher resolution and pixel size comes into play with shutter speed or lens selection may be the distinguishing factor why it's not considered the first RF "pro" body to come.

For example, the recommended lens lists for the 5DSR are easy to search and find. The Canon 16-35mm mk ii is not on that list, but the first version was compatible. I think the Mk iii became compatible too.

So the 5DS and 5DSR worked excellent for weddings and events, but required being more careful about lens choices, a tad faster shutter some times, and a few less frames per second. A new "pro" RF may be different in a similar fashion.

If the new RF body to upgrade the 5DSR has two cards, has everything the EOS R can do, plus some extra resolution, that may be what I'd prefer for my pro RF body anyway. Assuming it's priced similar to where the 5DSR was released


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## Mikehit (Nov 11, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> At rumored 80Mb+ sensor resolution, this body will require a helluvalot of image stabilisation and is DLA-ed already at F6.3.



And yet it will still have superior resolution, and greater cropping potential, to lower MP bodies under the same conditions. Which is all that potential buyers will be interested in.


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## geffy (Nov 11, 2019)

Cryve said:


> Ive got an interesting story as to why im possibly very interested in the high mp canon eos r camera.
> 
> 
> over the past two years i felt a bit let down by canon for not supporting the "low budged" wildlife community as much as wished for. I had really hoped for the 7d iii and when the rumors about no 7d iii and only a 90d showed up i was very disappointed.
> ...


how do you suffer backfocus with a mirrorless, is that not a mirror issue?


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## privatebydesign (Nov 11, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> At rumored 80Mb+ sensor resolution, this body will require a helluvalot of image stabilisation and is DLA-ed already at F6.3.
> not sure 7-8FPS speed is a requirement for a tripod mounted camera and nor is a high ISO capabilities.


At same magnification it will require no more stabilization than anything else, at greater magnification, well, obviously it will but that is what upping your game is all about. As for DLA figures, again, at same sized output they are meaningless, what difference does it make if you resolve the diffraction blur or not? None, diffraction is the same whatever sized pixel you use.


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## Architect1776 (Nov 11, 2019)

Joules said:


> What's that supposed to mean? It can't be a proper 5DS replacement without being a pro camera, or does it? I understood those terms to mean that the camera has two card slots and a bit better weather sealing than the R. Maybe an upgraded viewfinder.
> 
> With over a year of additional development time and a price tag above the R, I would have considered these a given.
> 
> What is the high res R expected to be missing?



38 FPS


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## Sharlin (Nov 11, 2019)

Joules said:


> What's that supposed to mean? It can't be a proper 5DS replacement without being a pro camera, or does it? I understood those terms to mean that the camera has two card slots and a bit better weather sealing than the R. Maybe an upgraded viewfinder.



"Pro" in this specific context has lately become to mean "1D" level ie. flagship. Yeah, doesn't make much sense, but that's how it is. People have different definitions for "pro"; for what it's worth, the Canon Europe website classifies the 1D and 5D lines as "professional", whereas eg. Canon US doesn't seem to make that distinction at all on their product pages.


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## Architect1776 (Nov 11, 2019)

Cryve said:


> Ive got an interesting story as to why im possibly very interested in the high mp canon eos r camera.
> 
> 
> over the past two years i felt a bit let down by canon for not supporting the "low budged" wildlife community as much as wished for. I had really hoped for the 7d iii and when the rumors about no 7d iii and only a 90d showed up i was very disappointed.
> ...



1DX MIII does it all and even better.


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## TMHKR (Nov 11, 2019)

geffy said:


> how do you suffer backfocus with a mirrorless, is that not a mirror issue?


I'm wondering as well, how can a focal plane-based focusing camera (that is, one that uses main sensor for focusing) front/back focus?


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## Drcampbellicu (Nov 11, 2019)

the 5DS is a polarizing camera
It fits the use of some very well 
others see it as a narrow use camera

It’s certainly not what I am looking for
Does anyone have sales numbers of the 7d vs 5DS vs 5D mark and such



Joules said:


> What's that supposed to mean? It can't be a proper 5DS replacement without being a pro camera, or does it? I understood those terms to mean that the camera has two card slots and a bit better weather sealing than the R. Maybe an upgraded viewfinder.
> 
> With over a year of additional development time and a price tag above the R, I would have considered these a given.
> 
> What is the high res R expected to be missing?


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## Kit. (Nov 11, 2019)

TMHKR said:


> I'm wondering as well, how can a focal plane-based focusing camera (that is, one that uses main sensor for focusing) front/back focus?


Not enough precision/accuracy or not enough time.


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## privatebydesign (Nov 11, 2019)

TMHKR said:


> I'm wondering as well, how can a focal plane-based focusing camera (that is, one that uses main sensor for focusing) front/back focus?


Surely it depends on the AF protocol, is it an open or closed loop signal, if it is a closed loop at what point does it turn off in one shot? Is the lens focus amount directed or does it rely on feedback, if it is predetermined how is that calibrated, does it have the ability to self recalibrate.There are so many aspects of the AF in the new RF cameras that are simply unknown. Nikon put the ability to micro AF adjust in some of their mirrorless so there obviously something in play.


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## [email protected] (Nov 11, 2019)

Cryve said:


> Ive got an interesting story as to why im possibly very interested in the high mp canon eos r camera.
> 
> 
> over the past two years i felt a bit let down by canon for not supporting the "low budged" wildlife community as much as wished for. I had really hoped for the 7d iii and when the rumors about no 7d iii and only a 90d showed up i was very disappointed.
> ...



That is a very strange coincidence that you went through at least 3 bodies and saw back focus on all of them. Because the A7r4 is using phase detect focus, it is very rare that there is an AFMA issue. However, if there is an issue, there is an AFMA option in the menu. You can see a guide for that here:


ILCE-7RM4 | Help Guide | AF Micro Adj.



I know it's annoying for the forums to indicate that you might be doing things wrong when you bring up a problem, but the math suggests that you might be doing something wrong. For instance, if you have a corner focus point set, you might find the lens always focusing on the background. It's just very odd to have a consistent, multiple-body focusing issue without other people indicating a similar problem. One thing I have seen with my A7r4 is that it doesn't follow focus as quickly as my A9 cameras, so if something is coming toward me, I will see a backfocus (like I'd see a front focus with objects moving away). But even then, it is still following as fast as my Canon 5D4s did. If you shoot the A9/A7 combo, you might find yourself criticizing the A7 performance on AF speed. 

I wonder if you'd discover a problem if you let one of the shop people take the camera and lens and do their own settings and then report to you what they find. Feel free to message me if you want to troubleshoot.

As to you question about the new 5 series being a potential solution for you, I don't see why that wouldn't be a good option. I'd look at how many lenses you have right now and either try the A9 Mark I - used for about $2500 now - if you had more Sony glass, or get the new 5 series mirrorless if you have more Canon glass. I'd put a condition on the Canon choice that you'd have to first see what the AF tracking frame rate is for the camera and make sure it is a multiple of that of the current R offering (3 fps) if you're going to be doing action/wildlife. Another option if mirrorless isn't a do-or-die factor might be to get a used 1dx mark 1 (used for $1800) which I found to be a good percentage as good as the Mark II. In my opinion, the A9 Mark I and the 1Dx Mark I are the two most underrated cameras on the market for the price. Don't bother with the A9 mark II if you stay with Sony, as I own both versions, and the II has only nominal benefits at a much higher price.


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## Dragon (Nov 11, 2019)

geffy said:


> how do you suffer backfocus with a mirrorless, is that not a mirror issue?


Or a focus servo issue. The Sony does use PDAF pixels, so it probably isn't refining focus with CDAF. If the camera doesn't tell the lens the exact focus destination with PDAF, you can have front or back focus errors. You could probably tweak the error out with a Tamron lens and the Tap-In, but then the lens would be inaccurate on a different body.


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## Punio (Nov 11, 2019)

Why isnt a 5D R not coming out before the 5DS mirrorless equivalent? This seems like a mixed up move to me.


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## SkynetTX (Nov 11, 2019)

I'm really glad that so many "pro" cameras and lenses will be released in the next few months but would like to know when we will have any new EF-S lenses and/or entrly level cameras with a bit improved performance. Let's say an 1200D Mark II with 18 MP sensor but all 9 cross-type and f/5.6 sensitive AF-points and Digic 6 processor.


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## LensFungus (Nov 11, 2019)

melgross said:


> Well, the high Rez mirrorless body is what a bunch of us here have been waiting for.
> 
> so, that body, and three fast zooms will all that I would need for most things, plus a high quality 100mm, or so, macro. My daughter seems to have misplaced the 100mm EF.


Good plan!

"Sweetheart, I have to buy new lenses. Our daughter seems to have misplaced some of them."
"We don't have a daughter."
"Oops, too late. Tomorrow I will be drowning in RF glass, woman!"


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## criscokkat (Nov 11, 2019)

Punio said:


> Why isnt a 5D R not coming out before the 5DS mirrorless equivalent? This seems like a mixed up move to me.


My guess is that both of them are being collapsed into the one. There might not even be a need for a low pass filter. I'm fairly certain it'll just autocorrect itself in camera, or the default raw engine in Canon's software will autocorrect. With advances in software and processing, it might not be needed.


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## cellomaster27 (Nov 11, 2019)

Let's just say that I'm very happy that I purchased the R last month. It's a fantastic camera and I've been almost falling in love with taking photos again. It's a great feeling! While a high MP/res camera is definitely something that canon should come out with, I'm realizing that for myself, 30-40MP is in the sweet zone for me for a plethora of reasons. I've been absolutely killing it with the R - so many photos sharp on the eyes!  And I don't have any RF glass yet. My 5D3... I will have to let it go.


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## Freddie (Nov 11, 2019)

I use the 5DSr for landscape, architecture, macro, focus-stacking, etc. Although 83mp would be interesting to work with, the file processing times would certainly be very long. I could imagine someone using such a high megapixel count for action and wildlife but I could never imagine how I would do that. It will be interesting to see what such a camera body looks like if it arrives. I would certainly consider something along those lines as a replacement for the 5DSr. The mirrorless system would work perfectly well for my purposes.


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## Sparky (Nov 11, 2019)

melgross said:


> Well, the high Rez mirrorless body is what a bunch of us here have been waiting for.
> 
> so, that body, and three fast zooms will all that I would need for most things, plus a high quality 100mm, or so, macro. My daughter seems to have misplaced the 100mm EF.


Tut tut. Did she misplace it on her camera?


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## barryreid (Nov 11, 2019)

I’m very much waiting for the higher MP Eos R. For one project I have been shooting TS-E lenses on a 5Ds in low light. Getting pixel sharp with those lenses, in those conditions is a chore without an EVF.


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## koch1948 (Nov 11, 2019)

IcyBergs said:


> I think what everybody is clamoring for is a true 5D series R body, call that "pro" or not, but that's what we want. I just wonder if this 5DS/r R replacement will be enough for some/most people in that camp to jump over to the R. Will be interesting to see. Especially as these RF lenses continue to tantalize.
> 
> I've never been in the market for a 5DS/r but depending on the specs for this R replacement (7-8fps range cleanish iso 6400), who knows it might be time to make the move.


I have often read that some users call the 5D series "prosumer" and the 1D series "pro".


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## Punio (Nov 11, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> My guess is that both of them are being collapsed into the one. There might not even be a need for a low pass filter. I'm fairly certain it'll just autocorrect itself in camera, or the default raw engine in Canon's software will autocorrect. With advances in software and processing, it might not be needed.



For many 5D owners like me hoping to move to mirrorless, an 80mp camera is too much. So I hope you’re wrong on that and we get both


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## docsmith (Nov 11, 2019)

Regarding new DSLRs, all I know is that the 5DIV has seen some price drops consistent with being replaced in the next 12 months.


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## ERHP (Nov 11, 2019)

I really like my 5DSR but the only thing I've used it for, outside a backup w/100-400 when wildlife comes in too close, is landscapes and macro. If it comes out of 80MP+ this will not hurt my feelings and I'll probably preorder it. Might finally have a reason to buy an RF mount lens or two.


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## mb66energy (Nov 11, 2019)

zonoskar said:


> EOS-M50-II please


Same here. M50 is a great little companion. Just give it a 3 stop IBIS (to make a field experiment), full sensor 4k and one or two wheels for settings, maybe one around the lens base like Powershot S90! And a 64 2.0 macro lens! I would buy two bodies and the lens without a lot of hesitation!


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## SteveC (Nov 11, 2019)

mb66energy said:


> Same here. M50 is a great little companion. Just give it a 3 stop IBIS (to make a field experiment), full sensor 4k and one or two wheels for settings, maybe one around the lens base like Powershot S90! And a 64 2.0 macro lens! I would buy two bodies and the lens without a lot of hesitation!



M50 is quite capable. Historically I've used it most with the Tamron 18-200 (first the version meant for APSC, but now the native EF-M compatible one), but I've added that 32 f/1.4 to my stable as well as the 11-22.


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## SecureGSM (Nov 11, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> At same magnification it will require no more stabilization than anything else, at greater magnification, well, obviously it will but that is what upping your game is all about. As for DLA figures, again, at same sized output they are meaningless, what difference does it make if you resolve the diffraction blur or not? None, diffraction is the same whatever sized pixel you use.


Because managing 100mb large files for
Screen output and or printing 8” x 12” is
Such a joy. 5dsr was a specialist camera at 50Mb. The new rumoured rig at 80Mb is clearly overkill for run and gun situations.


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## Sharlin (Nov 11, 2019)

Punio said:


> Why isnt a 5D R not coming out before the 5DS mirrorless equivalent? This seems like a mixed up move to me.



Because between the R and the 5D5 there's not much room for a "5D R" (or R Mk II) right now. Whereas the "5Ds R" (Rs?) does not have that problem.


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## dtaylor (Nov 11, 2019)

Drcampbellicu said:


> the 5DS is a polarizing camera
> It fits the use of some very well
> others see it as a narrow use camera



This is purely a marketing perception. My 5Ds has taken over everything...including sports, wildlife, and airshows...and the only thing I find wanting is the RAW buffer depth. It's even handling astro very well. I'm not sure why Canon pitched it as a 'narrow use' camera other than to preserve the higher USA price, or why so many reviewers presented it that way. There weren't any real differences (for stills) between it and the 5D3 except of course for that gorgeous sensor, and it handles every photographic situation well. Someone might point out file size or processing times, but you can always shoot in 28mp mraw.

Those looking for a true 5D4 equivalent mirrorless for stills will likely be satisfied by the high resolution R if they just use mraw when they don't want the full 83mp. The drawback will be the price, not a use or situation limiting spec.

Now for video I don't expect the high resolution R to be top of the line. It would be nice to be wrong here, but even the Sony A7r's have lower quality video than their 24mp brothers. It's just too much data to scale down at high quality. But for stills the 5Ds/sR are not actually narrow use cameras, and I don't expect the high resolution R to be either.


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## Sporgon (Nov 11, 2019)

barryreid said:


> I’m very much waiting for the higher MP Eos R. For one project I have been shooting TS-E lenses on a 5Ds in low light. Getting pixel sharp with those lenses, in those conditions is a chore without an EVF.


You weren’t using LiveView ??


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## ddixon (Nov 11, 2019)

Until this year I was using an original 6D. I rented a 5div and an R. I liked both, but chose to pass and wait for the next generation. I got an RP to get a toe in the water and really like it. If the new high res mirrorless is $3500 or less I'll get one, but's that probably unrealistic. My ideal would be a simple R mk ii that improves on the 5d and R: 42-50mp, less noise, better DR. If they can throw in 2 slots and keep it at $3000, I'm in. For IBIS I might even pay $3500, but it's not a deal breaker. Again, probably dreaming...


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## jdavidse (Nov 11, 2019)

I don’t need the “pro” R body if that means a 1DX type. What I need is a 5D equivalent, with redundant card slots and at least 8fps. If an 80mp body is what canon chooses to release at this juncture in the schedule, I can only guess that they are consolidating the 5D and 5Ds equivalents into a single camera for the RF Mount. If that is true, then I really hope that they have a solution for those of us that don’t want or need 80mp. Say, 40 or 30mp M-RAW option would be perfect.


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## Quarkcharmed (Nov 11, 2019)

Adelino said:


> Canon have outright stated that is what they consider pro. A LOT of pros consider other cameras pro.


Canon sells 1DxII, 5DIV, 5Ds and - surprise - 6DII as 'professional' cameras. Right on their official Australian site. On the Canon US, those cameras also come together along with M6II, but the section is called 'advanced'.


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## SteveC (Nov 11, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Canon sells 1DxII, 5DIV, 5Ds and - surprise - 6DII as 'professional' cameras. Right on their official Australian site. On the Canon US, those cameras also come together along with M6II, but the section is called 'advanced'.



So hold on here...the M6II is in the SAME bucket as the 1DxII and yet, Canon supposedly won't ever sell an M series lens that violates their self-imposed (meaning marketing imposed) limit on the diameter of the lens because the M series is for beginners who want convenience?


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## trounds (Nov 11, 2019)

A dual pixel through the viewfinder firmware update for the 90D please. The camera should have had this from the begining.


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## unfocused (Nov 11, 2019)

SteveC said:


> So hold on here...the M6II is in the SAME bucket as the 1DxII and yet, Canon supposedly won't ever sell an M series lens that violates their self-imposed (meaning marketing imposed) limit on the diameter of the lens because the M series is for beginners who want convenience?


Can you cite a source please? I haven't seen that quote.


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## unfocused (Nov 11, 2019)

trounds said:


> A dual pixel through the viewfinder firmware update for the 90D please. The camera should have had this from the begining.


Huh? Would those pixels be on the mirror?


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 11, 2019)

Cryve said:


> Ive got an interesting story as to why im possibly very interested in the high mp canon eos r camera.
> 
> 
> over the past two years i felt a bit let down by canon for not supporting the "low budged" wildlife community as much as wished for. I had really hoped for the 7d iii and when the rumors about no 7d iii and only a 90d showed up i was very disappointed.
> ...



Apparently you have decided, "To HELL with apostrophes."

And, read much ee cummings? 

"my sweet old etcetera
aunt lucy during the recent 

war could and what
is more did tell you just
what everybody was fighting"

and he (ee cummings) didn't even have a smartphone


----------



## unfocused (Nov 11, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Apparently you have decided, "To HELL with apostrophes."


Capitalization too.


----------



## SteveC (Nov 12, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Can you cite a source please? I haven't seen that quote.



Which part? The part about the M6II being in the same bucket as the 1DX? That one can be confirmed by going to Canon USA, looking at cameras, and seeing the M6II is listed in the advanced category. (The R and RP are not.)

The other part, I can't cite a legitimate source for, which is my point.


----------



## Sharlin (Nov 12, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Huh? Would those pixels be on the mirror?



Added via a firmware update no less!

Jokes aside, a few ideas occur to me regarding OVF DPAF that I'm sure Canon engineers have considered at some point:

Make use of main sensor DPAF "snapshots" during continuous shooting to augment discrete PDAF information
Replace the PDAF and/or metering sensor with a, say, a few megapixel combined DPAF/metering sensor
Rip out the discrete PDAF sensor and secondary mirror and use main sensor DPAF instead


----------



## Sharlin (Nov 12, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Which part? The part about the M6II being in the same bucket as the 1DX? That one can be confirmed by going to Canon USA, looking at cameras, and seeing the M6II is listed in the advanced category. (The R and RP are not.)



As I noted earlier, Canon Europe only considers the 1D and 5D series "professional" (including the 5Ds). I guess the product divisions are mostly up to the marketing departments of individual Canon subsidiaries.


----------



## SecureGSM (Nov 12, 2019)

jdavidse said:


> I don’t need the “pro” R body if that means a 1DX type. What I need is a 5D equivalent, with redundant card slots and at least 8fps. If an 80mp body is what canon chooses to release at this juncture in the schedule, I can only guess that they are consolidating the 5D and 5Ds equivalents into a single camera for the RF Mount. If that is true, then I really hope that they have a solution for those of us that don’t want or need 80mp. Say, 40 or 30mp M-RAW option would be perfect.



40 or 30mp M-RAW option would be perfect, provided there is no an IQ loss associated with shooting in M-RAW.


----------



## djack41 (Nov 12, 2019)

Canon needs to match the A7R4. Sony has set a high bar in terms of resolution, FR and AF. Fingers crossed!


----------



## unfocused (Nov 12, 2019)

SteveC said:


> ...The other part, I can't cite a legitimate source for, which is my point.



Well now I'm confused. You wrote:_ "...Canon supposedly won't ever sell an M series lens that violates their self-imposed (meaning marketing imposed) limit on the diameter of the lens because the M series is for beginners who want convenience?"_

I asked for your source and your reply is you can't cite a source, _"which is my point."_

What does that mean? You attributed a policy to Canon and now are you saying you just made it up?


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Nov 12, 2019)

trounds said:


> A dual pixel through the viewfinder firmware update for the 90D please. The camera should have had this from the begining.


Not a firmware fix.


----------



## criscokkat (Nov 12, 2019)

Punio said:


> For many 5D owners like me hoping to move to mirrorless, an 80mp camera is too much. So I hope you’re wrong on that and we get both


It’s not that big of a bump. The 5Ds and 5Dr were both 50.6 mp. That’s about the same % of a jump from 5d3 to 5d4.


----------



## Roo (Nov 12, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> As I noted earlier, Canon Europe only considers the 1D and 5D series "professional" (including the 5Ds). I guess the product divisions are mostly up to the marketing departments of individual Canon subsidiaries.



Marketing would have a different view to CPS. USA and Australian websites may list the M6 Mk II/6D MkII as advanced or professional cameras but neither qualify for CPS. For Australia the CPS qualifying cameras are 1D/5D series or EOS R.


----------



## Joules (Nov 12, 2019)

unfocused said:


> What does that mean? You attributed a policy to Canon and now are you saying you just made it up?


Are you questioning the fact that all Ef-m lenses have the same diameter? You can confirm that easily by going through their respective specs. It doesn't mean there will never be an Ef-m lens with a larger diameter, but so far it seems Canon have decided they won't release such a lens.


----------



## SteveC (Nov 12, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Well now I'm confused. You wrote:_ "...Canon supposedly won't ever sell an M series lens that violates their self-imposed (meaning marketing imposed) limit on the diameter of the lens because the M series is for beginners who want convenience?"_
> 
> I asked for your source and your reply is you can't cite a source, _"which is my point."_
> 
> What does that mean? You attributed a policy to Canon and now are you saying you just made it up?



OK, I see the confusion now.

No, people here have made that argument to me, and I'm trying to point up the inconsistency between what they are saying and what Canon is showing. 

They never really sourced it either.


----------



## unfocused (Nov 12, 2019)

SteveC said:


> OK, I see the confusion now.
> 
> No, people here have made that argument to me, and I'm trying to point up the inconsistency between what they are saying and what Canon is showing.
> 
> They never really sourced it either.


Okay. Well, obviously you should never believe anyone who pretends to know what Canon's plans, strategies and rationales are. There are far too many people on this forum who love to make false claims about Canon's perspective on their own products. The only definition of professional camera that means anything is a camera used by someone who is a professional. Since that can be any camera (including iPhones), arbitrary designations like "professional camera" are really sort of silly.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 12, 2019)

I would really be interested to know what the 4-6 lenses will be. Still hoping for a RF 70-135mm f/2 zoom.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 12, 2019)

geffy said:


> how do you suffer backfocus with a mirrorless, is that not a mirror issue?


Apparently it can be a problem. Nikon offers AFMA on it's mirrorless cameras.


----------



## mb66energy (Nov 12, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Because managing 100mb large files for
> Screen output and or printing 8” x 12” is
> Such a joy. 5dsr was a specialist camera at 50Mb. The new rumoured rig at 80Mb is clearly overkill for run and gun situations.


I bet a 80 Mpix camera will have a 20 Mpix RAW mode where each image pixel has data from its own R, GG, B cells which might give you unprecedented IQ at medium high resolutions and that is one reason for such a camera.
In situations where resolution is required (with the right lens, tripod/enough light) you can do the "Bayer-trick" and you have 80 MPix.
Just with the 20 MPix mode file size would be 14+15+14 =43 bits per pixel resulting in 40...60 MByte files (with lossless compression). But this is half the file size and maybe 1/10th of the computing power (no debayering) so should be much faster compared to 80 MPix full res files.
20 MPix mode - Screen and small prints
80 MPix mode - large advertising posters, BIF for those who search the bird afterwards


----------



## mb66energy (Nov 12, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I would really be interested to know what the 4-6 lenses will be. Still hoping for a RF 70-135mm f/2 zoom.


70 135 f/2 would be very nice including 10 sessions in a fitness studio (2kg +)
I would be satisfied with a 100mm macro with f/2 resolving my dilemma with two lenses (2.8 macro + 2.0 100mm).
Add an RF 50 f/2 macro and this would maybe my preferred setup if I will ever switch to FF.


----------



## SecureGSM (Nov 12, 2019)

mb66energy said:


> I bet a 80 Mpix camera will have a 20 Mpix RAW mode where each image pixel has data from its own R, GG, B cells which might give you unprecedented IQ at medium high resolutions and that is one reason for such a camera.
> In situations where resolution is required (with the right lens, tripod/enough light) you can do the "Bayer-trick" and you have 80 MPix.
> Just with the 20 MPix mode file size would be 14+15+14 =43 bits per pixel resulting in 40...60 MByte files (with lossless compression). But this is half the file size and maybe 1/10th of the computing power (no debayering) so should be much faster compared to 80 MPix full res files.
> 20 MPix mode - Screen and small prints
> 80 MPix mode - large advertising posters, BIF for those who search the bird afterwards


That would absolutely make sense provided files are around 50Mb each give or take. I hope this is correct as I am out of my depth with this already. 
Canon folks are smarter than us. I hope they get this camera right. I really do.


----------



## Deleted member 68328 (Nov 12, 2019)

Still waiting for the next 5D. Hope it'll retain the GPS and get (partially) the new 1 DX III AF system.

Have Canon find a way to deal with this AF micro-adjustment thingy for good? Fingers crossed.


----------



## zonoskar (Nov 12, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Apparently it can be a problem. Nikon offers AFMA on it's mirrorless cameras.


Could be useful for lenses that have a focus shift when stopped down (spherical aberration).


----------



## Memdroid (Nov 12, 2019)

Why is the EOS R not considered a pro body? Other than the weird ergonomics and lack of joystick, it is exactly like a 5D IV in liveview mode and then some.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Nov 12, 2019)

Roo said:


> Marketing would have a different view to CPS. USA and Australian websites may list the M6 Mk II/6D MkII as advanced or professional cameras but neither qualify for CPS. For Australia the CPS qualifying cameras are 1D/5D series or EOS R.



USA website lists M6II as 'Advanced', there's no 'professional' filter as such, as far as I can see. 

On the Australian site, no mirrorless Canon's camera is listed in 'professional' section. R and RP are in the 'enthusiast' category.


----------



## SecureGSM (Nov 12, 2019)

Memdroid said:


> Why is the EOS R not considered a pro body? Other than the weird ergonomics and lack of joystick, it is exactly like a 5D IV in liveview mode and then some.


because it is not rugged enough to withstand a commercial use:

CPS membership is only available to professionals who own eligible EOS 1D, EOS 5D, L-series lens and Cinema EOS products (view eligible products).
there you have it.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Nov 12, 2019)

SteveC said:


> So hold on here...the M6II is in the SAME bucket as the 1DxII and yet, Canon supposedly won't ever sell an M series lens that violates their self-imposed (meaning marketing imposed) limit on the diameter of the lens because the M series is for beginners who want convenience?



You're questioning me as if it were myself who categorised cameras on the Canon US website.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Nov 12, 2019)

I don't understand why the 7d2 is not considered 'professional' . So what if it has a crop sensor. Everything else about it is absolutely top shelf and it is a camera regularly used by professional photographers. Makes no sense really


----------



## Antono Refa (Nov 12, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> At same magnification it will require no more stabilization than anything else, at greater magnification, well, obviously it will but that is what upping your game is all about. As for DLA figures, again, at same sized output they are meaningless, what difference does it make if you resolve the diffraction blur or not? None, diffraction is the same whatever sized pixel you use.



What's the point of having higher resolution, if not to have greater magnification?


----------



## edoorn (Nov 12, 2019)

if we're talking about the 'pro' body, I assume many mean the 1D-equivalent. However a 5D IV and 5Ds can be considered pro as well of course, and are considered that way by Canon too. I would expect a high res R body to be more in line with that. Better built and weather resistant than the R, improved ergo and dual slots would qualify it as pro as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## AaronT (Nov 12, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> At rumored 80Mb+ sensor resolution, this body will require a helluvalot of image stabilisation and is DLA-ed already at F6.3.
> not sure 7-8FPS speed is a requirement for a tripod mounted camera and nor is a high ISO capabilities.


I'm just wondering if anyone has been able to take a sharp photo with their Canon 90D? Wait a second, of course they have! And some of those sharp photos were probably taken without a tripod!! The 90D is the same pixel density as an 83 MP full frame. I have a 5DsR and have taken tens of thousands sharp photos hand held. I could use a few more pixels on occasion.


----------



## AaronT (Nov 12, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Because managing 100mb large files for
> Screen output and or printing 8” x 12” is
> Such a joy. 5dsr was a specialist camera at 50Mb. The new rumoured rig at 80Mb is clearly overkill for run and gun situations.


Here we go again.  If the max you print is 12"x18" then the new 80+ MP camera is not for you, so don't buy it. I have a 24" printer, it is for me. I don't print all the photos I take at 24x36 or larger but if I do decide to print a photo I know I have a file capable of it. When I moved from a 5D MK II to a 5DsR I became a bit more ruthless in culling my photos. I use to keep a lot of photos I was never going to use, plus large hard drives are not that expensive anymore. My first 1 Gig HD cost me $350, now you can get a 4 Terabyte HD for $110. That's 4,000 times the capacity for less than 1/3 the price. A 64 GB CF card gives me 700+ shots, 2 will cover a wedding with a 128 SD card in the backup slot.


----------



## SecureGSM (Nov 12, 2019)

AaronT said:


> Here we go again.  If the max you print is 12"x18" then the new 80+ MP camera is not for you, so don't buy it. I have a 24" printer, it is for me. I don't print all the photos I take at 24x36 or larger but if I do decide to print a photo I know I have a file capable of it. When I moved from a 5D MK II to a 5DsR I became a bit more ruthless in culling my photos. I use to keep a lot of photos I was never going to use, plus large hard drives are not that expensive anymore. My first 1 Gig HD cost me $350, now you can get a 4 Terabyte HD for $110. That's 4,000 times the capacity for less than 1/3 the price. A 64 GB CF card gives me 700+ shots, 2 will cover a wedding with a 128 SD card in the backup slot.


I don’t recall kicking off an argument with you. I said that 80Mb is an overkill for Run and Gun gigs.
Your Canon 90D argument isn’t quite valid. 
What shutter speed range are we talking about again? Exactly.

And if you need to print a file or two per annum large, then go ahead and break out that specialist camera, take that shot and print as large as you pleased. 
What is that to do with run and gun situation or even printing wedding albums at 8x12?

And yes, here we go again. I suggest you read the original post and take it from there. 
For your convenience I repeat:

Hi res rig is overkill for run and gun assignments if expected output is either screen or a small prints. 
5DS/R is a specialist camera.


----------



## Bob Howland (Nov 12, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Well now I'm confused. You wrote:_ "...Canon supposedly won't ever sell an M series lens that violates their self-imposed (meaning marketing imposed) limit on the diameter of the lens because the M series is for beginners who want convenience?"_
> 
> I asked for your source and your reply is you can't cite a source, _"which is my point."_
> 
> What does that mean? You attributed a policy to Canon and now are you saying you just made it up?


"Observe the behavior and infer the motivation"


----------



## Travel_Photographer (Nov 12, 2019)

Canon USA CPS lists the qualifying cameras as the:

1DX series
5D Mark II, III, IV, S and Sr
7D and 7DII
6D and 6D II
EOS R

So both APS-C and mirrorless cameras are represented.

That said, I agree that any camera used in a professional setting to earn a living can be considered pro.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (Nov 12, 2019)

curious to see the sales numbers of the 5D series. If the numbers are high then I’m wrong and it’s not a niche camera with a strong following



dtaylor said:


> This is purely a marketing perception. My 5Ds has taken over everything...including sports, wildlife, and airshows...and the only thing I find wanting is the RAW buffer depth. It's even handling astro very well. I'm not sure why Canon pitched it as a 'narrow use' camera other than to preserve the higher USA price, or why so many reviewers presented it that way. There weren't any real differences (for stills) between it and the 5D3 except of course for that gorgeous sensor, and it handles every photographic situation well. Someone might point out file size or processing times, but you can always shoot in 28mp mraw.
> 
> Those looking for a true 5D4 equivalent mirrorless for stills will likely be satisfied by the high resolution R if they just use mraw when they don't want the full 83mp. The drawback will be the price, not a use or situation limiting spec.
> 
> Now for video I don't expect the high resolution R to be top of the line. It would be nice to be wrong here, but even the Sony A7r's have lower quality video than their 24mp brothers. It's just too much data to scale down at high quality. But for stills the 5Ds/sR are not actually narrow use cameras, and I don't expect the high resolution R to be either.


----------



## AaronT (Nov 12, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> I don’t recall kicking off an argument with you. I said that 80Mb is an overkill for Run and Gun gigs.
> Your Canon 90D argument isn’t quite valid.
> What shutter speed range are we talking about again? Exactly.
> 
> ...


I'm not picking an argument with you, just making a statement. There is nothing wrong with overkill, might not be for everyone but if you only want 1 camera to do it all then a high MP camera can. You just have to be willing to carry the overhead of more HD capacity. As far as shutter speed is concerned what's the problem? Here are 2 shots from this morning that were shot hand held. The first is 1/6 sec at 6400 ISO through my kitchen window, the second 1/60 sec at 500 ISO, both with the 5DsR and 24-70 F4. I couldn't do any better with my 5D MK II 21 MP. I don't have a problem with shutter speed. Exactly! The last is a 100% crop. My 5D MK II couldn't do that nearly as well. Just saying................


----------



## Memdroid (Nov 12, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> because it is not rugged enough to withstand a commercial use:
> 
> CPS membership is only available to professionals who own eligible EOS 1D, EOS 5D, L-series lens and Cinema EOS products (view eligible products).
> there you have it.



Thanks! 
But my comment was more for the mirrorless crowd who does not consider the R as a pro body, but compared to the 5D IV, which is a pro body, it has more similarities than differences. IQ, MP, (LV) FPS, video etc.


----------



## Architect1776 (Nov 12, 2019)

TMHKR said:


> I'm wondering as well, how can a focal plane-based focusing camera (that is, one that uses main sensor for focusing) front/back focus?



Magic.


----------



## unfocused (Nov 12, 2019)

Bob Howland said:


> "Observe the behavior and infer the motivation"


And you will wrong 90 percent of the time.


----------



## Architect1776 (Nov 12, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> I don't understand why the 7d2 is not considered 'professional' . So what if it has a crop sensor. Everything else about it is absolutely top shelf and it is a camera regularly used by professional photographers. Makes no sense really



Pros (People earning money and l a living by taking photos) use Rebels as well.  
Do some pretty incredible work as well.


----------



## bergstrom (Nov 12, 2019)

The RF lens prices are just off the charts and need to be reined in a bit.


----------



## caffetin (Nov 12, 2019)

Cryve said:


> Ive got an interesting story as to why im possibly very interested in the high mp canon eos r camera.
> 
> 
> over the past two years i felt a bit let down by canon for not supporting the "low budged" wildlife community as much as wished for. I had really hoped for the 7d iii and when the rumors about no 7d iii and only a 90d showed up i was very disappointed.
> ...


I think that soon we will see a new crop sensor mirrorless cameras and lenses from canon.but everything in time(which we don't have it, according to all posts here)


----------



## gdanmitchell (Nov 12, 2019)

Joules said:


> What's that supposed to mean? It can't be a proper 5DS replacement without being a pro camera, or does it? I understood those terms to mean that the camera has two card slots and a bit better weather sealing than the R. Maybe an upgraded viewfinder.
> 
> With over a year of additional development time and a price tag above the R, I would have considered these a given.
> 
> What is the high res R expected to be missing?



It would a be a useful thing to stop using the term "pro" to refer to cameras. It is a misleading and incomplete term that tells us little about the equipment and, if anything, only a little about how it is positioned in the market. 

The 5Ds/5DsR replacement camera is a great example. A high MP full-frame camera is, in fact, the thing that "pros" who need those qualities from a Canon system will choose, just as they do with the 5DsR.


----------



## unfocused (Nov 12, 2019)

bergstrom said:


> The RF lens prices are just off the charts and need to be reined in a bit.


The market always wins. Eventually lenses or bodies that are priced at more than the market will bear will see their prices drop. Right now you are seeing "early adopter" pricing.


----------



## Punio (Nov 12, 2019)

In Canon's interview with Image Resource it was clear that when the Canon execs referred to Pro they were talking about a 1DX mirrorless equivalent. I wouldn't say every camera is pro if you can make money from it. Pro features today relate to features and weather sealing. Anything below the 5D are still consumer based features.

Back on topic though, what are the chances of a EOS R2? I am going back and forward on whether to wait for the next 'Pro' mirrorless or pull the trigger on the EOS R, when I need a 5D type camera.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 12, 2019)

mb66energy said:


> 70 135 f/2 would be very nice including 10 sessions in a fitness studio (2kg +)
> I would be satisfied with a 100mm macro with f/2 resolving my dilemma with two lenses (2.8 macro + 2.0 100mm).
> Add an RF 50 f/2 macro and this would maybe my preferred setup if I will ever switch to FF.


I'd be fine with the weight. Maybe a 100-135 f/2. It's anybody's guess right now.


----------



## Travel_Photographer (Nov 12, 2019)

gdanmitchell said:


> It would a be a useful thing to stop using the term "pro" to refer to cameras. It is a misleading and incomplete term that tells us little about the equipment and, if anything, only a little about how it is positioned in the market.
> 
> The 5Ds/5DsR replacement camera is a great example. A high MP full-frame camera is, in fact, the thing that "pros" who need those qualities from a Canon system will choose, just as they do with the 5DsR.



I agree entirely. "Pro" is a vague term, as evidenced by the wide variety of opinions in this thread alone. 

For the "physical" specs, I'd much rather hear about the camera in measurable / tangible terms such as metal vs plastic mounts, material the body is made of, weather sealing, etc. That at least has an indisputable meaning.

Personally, I still consider any camera capable of consistently producing high-quality images that can be used for a variety of commercial (i.e. money-making) purposes to be a professional camera. That's just my opinion. If someone needs a specific level of ruggedness or weather-sealing so be it, but I don't think that's the primary measure of a camera's worth in the "professional" world.


----------



## amorse (Nov 12, 2019)

unfocused said:


> The market always wins. Eventually lenses or bodies that are priced at more than the market will bear will see their prices drop. Right now you are seeing "early adopter" pricing.


I do wonder about early adopter pricing - I'm of two minds on that.

On the one hand, I believe the RF 85mm f/1.2 is launch priced nearly identically to the EF 85mm 1.2L II once inflation adjusted, so while it is a lot of money, it isn't really out of historical character for Canon. For lenses that haven't existed prior to the RF mount, that is a tougher question - I'm sure they'll come down eventually, but by how much? Canon seems to try and avoid dropping prices on specialist equipment - i.e. the 5Ds/sR didn't really move much in terms of pricing until relatively recently. I wonder if, for instance, the 28-70 f/2 will get the same treatment.

Also, I wonder how the market is shifting - it seems like we've heard a lot about compact camera and lower-end product sales drying up, and I could have sworn several manufactures have suggested that they'll concentrate a bit more on the higher end of the market. To me I wonder if that means we'll see some more separation in pricing at the higher end of the market - i.e. a lower entry price point for full frame, but higher top end prices for what are considered "premium" products. Part of me thinks we get a bunch of cheaper lenses and bodies in the full frame realm, but the "flagship products" end up going up in price. In other words, I wonder if those halo lenses stay really expensive to maintain their status, and instead we get some f/4s at lower price points for the rest of us.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 12, 2019)

Viggo said:


> More like at f 4.5


DLA = ???


----------



## Viggo (Nov 12, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> DLA = ???


Yeah, perhaps not that shallow, but at 50 mp the 5dsr is at 6.3 or something.


----------



## mpb001 (Nov 12, 2019)

Punio said:


> In Canon's interview with Image Resource it was clear that when the Canon execs referred to Pro they were talking about a 1DX mirrorless equivalent. I wouldn't say every camera is pro if you can make money from it. Pro features today relate to features and weather sealing. Anything below the 5D are still consumer based features.
> 
> Back on topic though, what are the chances of a EOS R2? I am going back and forward on whether to wait for the next 'Pro' mirrorless or pull the trigger on the EOS R, when I need a 5D type camera.


I had been considering an R or even an RP as a backup to my 5DIV, but I have been thinking that at this point why settle to the older sensors in these cameras. Ive decided to wait for the next iteration with newer sensors and likley IBIS at least in an R2 type model. Im sure that the high MP model will most likely have IBIS to work well with the newer non IS RF lenses. I just don’t really want a 60-80 MP or whatever it may be R body. The R2 will probably have a 32-36MP sensor, which would work for me.


----------



## Jane Cooper (Nov 12, 2019)

Such great information, I like to take photos, it will be very useful to me!


----------



## Punio (Nov 12, 2019)

mpb001 said:


> I had been considering an R or even an RP as a backup to my 5DIV, but I have been thinking that at this point why settle to the older sensors in these cameras. Ive decided to wait for the next iteration with newer sensors and likley IBIS at least in an R2 type model. Im sure that the high MP model will most likely have IBIS to work well with the newer non IS RF lenses. I just don’t really want a 60-80 MP or whatever it may be R body. The R2 will probably have a 32-36MP sensor, which would work for me.



Those are my thoughts too, an EOS R2 or EOS 5DR would suit me, but not a 80mp niche body. Unfortunately I am now without a main camera so I may look at the EOS R on black friday deals or a second hand version to tide me over until the next iteration arrives. But knowing my luck they silent release a Pro R at the same time.


----------



## SteveC (Nov 12, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Okay. Well, obviously you should never believe anyone who pretends to know what Canon's plans, strategies and rationales are. There are far too many people on this forum who love to make false claims about Canon's perspective on their own products.



Precisely.



> The only definition of professional camera that means anything is a camera used by someone who is a professional. Since that can be any camera (including iPhones), arbitrary designations like "professional camera" are really sort of silly.



And then you get to define what a "professional" is!

One definition is anyone who has ever made money, ever, at the activity. Well, I've grossed 15 dollars, and it was even to two totally different people. Does that make me a professional?

I rather think a more useful concept would be "someone who makes a living at it" which certainly wouldn't be me.

In my sig I state that I don't want to be an amateur forever; what I mean by that is that I want the quality of my output to be on a par with those who make a living at it; not that I want to change careers.


----------



## SteveC (Nov 12, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> You're questioning me as if it were myself who categorised cameras on the Canon US website.



Nope, not at all. I was questioning the OTHER half of the contrast I was trying to draw.


----------



## venusFivePhotoStudio (Nov 12, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> I don't understand why the 7d2 is not considered 'professional' . So what if it has a crop sensor. Everything else about it is absolutely top shelf and it is a camera regularly used by professional photographers. Makes no sense really



As far as I know, 1Dx, 5D and 7D are considered pro cameras!


----------



## SecureGSM (Nov 12, 2019)

AaronT said:


> I'm not picking an argument with you, just making a statement. There is nothing wrong with overkill, might not be for everyone but if you only want 1 camera to do it all then a high MP camera can. You just have to be willing to carry the overhead of more HD capacity. As far as shutter speed is concerned what's the problem? Here are 2 shots from this morning that were shot hand held. The first is 1/6 sec at 6400 ISO through my kitchen window, the second 1/60 sec at 500 ISO, both with the 5DsR and 24-70 F4. I couldn't do any better with my 5D MK II 21 MP. I don't have a problem with shutter speed. Exactly! The last is a 100% crop. My 5D MK II couldn't do that nearly as well. Just saying................
> View attachment 187473
> 
> 
> ...



Your use case is not a typical run and gun scenario. You cannot shoot people at 1/5 of a second. You run and gun with a pair of cameras typically. 
event shooters do not run and gun with high res rigs typically. There are exceptions.


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## Trout Bum (Nov 12, 2019)

Punio said:


> Those are my thoughts too, an EOS R2 or EOS 5DR would suit me, but not a 80mp niche body. Unfortunately I am now without a main camera so I may look at the EOS R on black friday deals or a second hand version to tide me over until the next iteration arrives. But knowing my luck they silent release a Pro R at the same time.


My situation exactly. Come Spring I'm gonna need a ff ml body. Having sold my 5D4 for ergonomic reasons, it's been killing me to have an M50 as my only camera.


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## SecureGSM (Nov 12, 2019)

Memdroid said:


> Thanks!
> But my comment was more for the mirrorless crowd who does not consider the R as a pro body, but compared to the 5D IV, which is a pro body, it has more similarities than differences. IQ, MP, (LV) FPS, video etc.


You comment is: why R is not considered a Pro body? Answer: you can cram as much cool
Features as you like in a camera but if the camera is not weather resistant enough or not rugged enough, it won’t survive a commercial environment.


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## Punio (Nov 12, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> You comment is: why R is not considered a Pro body? Answer: you can cram as much cool
> Features as you like in a camera but if the camera is not weather resistant enough or not rugged enough, it won’t survive a commercial environment.



I would also add as I mentioned earlier. The Canon execs in their interview specifically said they are yet to put out a Pro mirrorless body.


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## cellomaster27 (Nov 12, 2019)

Punio said:


> In Canon's interview with Image Resource it was clear that when the Canon execs referred to Pro they were talking about a 1DX mirrorless equivalent. I wouldn't say every camera is pro if you can make money from it. Pro features today relate to features and weather sealing. Anything below the 5D are still consumer based features.
> 
> Back on topic though, what are the chances of a EOS R2? I am going back and forward on whether to wait for the next 'Pro' mirrorless or pull the trigger on the EOS R, when I need a 5D type camera.



Coming from a 5D3 (pro body), the EOS R is a great camera. I probably won't be so careless with the R as I have been with the 5D3. But I'm sure that the weather sealing is just fine. With the 5D3, I was so abusive.. in the dirt and mud, then washing it off under the sink.. in the ice and snow for 4-5 hours - literally in the snow on my stomach.. in 110F desert of Arizona.. under a typhoon in Japan for a few hours.. time lapsing in sub freezing temps for hours.. surf spray in the winter in Iceland. Still working perfectly fine!
Just think of the images that you can get though!! The R is leaps better than the mark 3 imho. Think of the now instead of the future, because photos are to take with a camera that you have. I am bothered a bit from not having redundant cards and a "less" weather sealed camera but I would still trust my camera to get just about what I did with my 5D3.


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## Travel_Photographer (Nov 12, 2019)

cellomaster27 said:


> Coming from a 5D3 (pro body), the EOS R is a great camera. I probably won't be so careless with the R as I have been with the 5D3. But I'm sure that the weather sealing is just fine. With the 5D3, I was so abusive.. in the dirt and mud, then washing it off under the sink.. in the ice and snow for 4-5 hours - literally in the snow on my stomach.. in 110F desert of Arizona.. under a typhoon in Japan for a few hours.. time lapsing in sub freezing temps for hours.. surf spray in the winter in Iceland. Still working perfectly fine!
> Just think of the images that you can get though!! The R is leaps better than the mark 3 imho. Think of the now instead of the future, because photos are to take with a camera that you have. I am bothered a bit from not having redundant cards and a "less" weather sealed camera but I would still trust my camera to get just about what I did with my 5D3.



Exactly.

Also, on the Canon Professional Services site, devoted specifically to cameras and equipment that *they* deem to be used in a professional manner and thus are covered under the specialized CPS repair plan, the Canon R is one of the cameras. As a matter of fact, in "qualifying points" which is what you need to gain CPS repair status, the EOS R ranks higher than the 5D Mark III. I'd find it hard to argue that Canon doesn't consider the R one of their cameras that is used in a professional setting.






Canon U.S.A., Inc. | Canon Professional Services | Canon USA


<p dir="ltr">Canon Professional Services (CPS) provides exceptional support for full-time imaging professionals. </p>




www.usa.canon.com





ps. I don't own an R, just pointing our the relevant info


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## Ozarker (Nov 12, 2019)

Viggo said:


> Yeah, perhaps not that shallow, but at 50 mp the 5dsr is at 6.3 or something.


I can't decipher what the acronym stand for... DLA,


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## Ozarker (Nov 12, 2019)

cellomaster27 said:


> Coming from a 5D3 (pro body), the EOS R is a great camera. I probably won't be so careless with the R as I have been with the 5D3. But I'm sure that the weather sealing is just fine. With the 5D3, I was so abusive.. in the dirt and mud, then washing it off under the sink.. in the ice and snow for 4-5 hours - literally in the snow on my stomach.. in 110F desert of Arizona.. under a typhoon in Japan for a few hours.. time lapsing in sub freezing temps for hours.. surf spray in the winter in Iceland. Still working perfectly fine!
> Just think of the images that you can get though!! The R is leaps better than the mark 3 imho. Think of the now instead of the future, because photos are to take with a camera that you have. I am bothered a bit from not having redundant cards and a "less" weather sealed camera but I would still trust my camera to get just about what I did with my 5D3.


Somebody else from another thread posted this. Foof for thought:


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## SecureGSM (Nov 12, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I can't decipher what the acronym stand for... DLA,


Diffraction limited aperture


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## C Tographer (Nov 12, 2019)

I feel we still don't have a 5D equivalent in the EOS R range, with none on the horizon.

I consider the current EOS R to be somewhat inferior to the 5D. Now we hear canon is making a high-megapixel equivalent to the 5DS. That's not what I'm looking for either.


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## SecureGSM (Nov 12, 2019)

Travel_Photographer said:


> I agree entirely. "Pro" is a vague term, as evidenced by the wide variety of opinions in this thread alone.
> 
> For the "physical" specs, I'd much rather hear about the camera in measurable / tangible terms such as metal vs plastic mounts, material the body is made of, weather sealing, etc. That at least has an indisputable meaning.
> 
> Personally, I still consider any camera capable of consistently producing high-quality images that can be used for a variety of commercial (i.e. money-making) purposes to be a professional camera. That's just my opinion. If someone needs a specific level of ruggedness or weather-sealing so be it, but I don't think that's the primary measure of a camera's worth in the "professional" world.


Some features are essential and some features are nice to have. 
If you are on a paid assignment outdoors and continue shooting whatever weather conditions are, then you need a camera that’s is reasonably weather sealed. 
According to this highly reputable resource Canon R is not weather sealed enough to qualify. 
They took the camera apart:









Teardown of the Canon EOS R Mirrorless Camera


I've wanted to look inside the new Canon and Nikon mirrorless cameras since the moment they were announced, so I'm probably more excited about this than you guys are. I'm really not sure what to expect. Early on, when we took apart a Sony A7R, we were struck by how clean and straightforward...



www.lensrentals.com





“... Speaking of the Sony A7RIII, it’s taken a bit of internet trashing for its lack of weather sealing. Throw no stones from your glass house, oh Canon shooters. The Canon EOS-R is just about the same; well-sealed buttons and dials, not much else. That means, I think, that it will be fine in a misty rain for a while, but don’t get it saturated and don’t set it somewhere wet.

You can make an argument that tightly fitted plastic shells are good weather sealing. Then again, you can argue that weather sealing means waterproof. Lots of people do that on the way to finding out the warranty doesn’t cover water damage....”


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## Ozarker (Nov 12, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Diffraction limited aperture


Thank you!


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## Keith_Reeder (Nov 12, 2019)

AaronT said:


> I'm just wondering if anyone has been able to take a sharp photo with their Canon 90D? Wait a second, of course they have! And some of those sharp photos were probably taken without a tripod!! The 90D is the same pixel density as an 83 MP full frame. I have a 5DsR and have taken tens of thousands sharp photos hand held. I could use a few more pixels on occasion.


Indeed.

I'm currently shooting birds and wildlife, handheld, with an M6 Mk II (a break from my 1D x and 7D Mk II) and the files from the little camera are so bloody sharp that I've dropped capture sharpening from my workflow.


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## Keith_Reeder (Nov 12, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> “... Speaking of the Sony A7RIII, it’s taken a bit of internet trashing for its lack of weather sealing. Throw no stones from your glass house, oh Canon shooters. The Canon EOS-R is just about the same; well-sealed buttons and dials, not much else. That means, I think, that it will be fine in a misty rain for a while, but don’t get it saturated and don’t set it somewhere wet..."


Are Canon shooters uniquely responsible for trashing the Sony for its lack of sealing?

Seems rather unlikely...

Besides, Sony has "pro" aspirations for the A7R III - Canon isn't marketing the R that way:



https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/interchangeable-lens-cameras/ilce-7rm3



The R is cheaper, too - in the UK, at least.


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## SecureGSM (Nov 12, 2019)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Indeed.
> 
> I'm currently shooting birds and wildlife, handheld, with an M6 Mk II (a break from my 1D x and 7D Mk II) and the files from the little camera are so bloody sharp that I've dropped capture sharpening from my workflow.


Keith, what are your observations in relation to optimal shutter speed requirements for shooting stationary subjects with 90D?
I shoot with two 5D IV bodies. I found that my sweet spot is around 1/FLx1.5. 
I do not shoot people slower than1/60 no matter what even at a UW angles. 
Thank you. 

e.g. T= 1/125s for FL=85mm IS =OFF, handheld.


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## Aaron Lozano (Nov 12, 2019)

My wish list for the next mirror-less cam:

83MP camera with Medium and small RAW modes (41 and 20MP) also crop modes included to use APSC framing in the Viewfinder.

-The Medium and Small RAW modes would have increased FPS, let's say 80MP come in 4 to 5fps, 40MP in 7 or 8 fps and then 20MP can shoot at 14/16 fps
-The APSC crop would be a 32MP one with 12fps. Maybe even more crop modes.
-AF: passing from dual pixel to quadruple pixel AF
-Medium/small RAW use a quad Bayer sensor alike binning to bring cleaner high ISO
-IBIS to allow AI in a night mode picture style. (If phones can do what they do, what could they do with a FF sensor...)
-4G connection and APP/features like send to email, upload to Dropbox, to backup pictures in multiple locations worldwide and plan the editing before hitting the workstation. Also allow bricking and find the location of the camera in case of theft
-In camera encrypted SSD drive. Bye bye memory cards
-USB-C type port for Thunderbolt speed transfer or charging the camera without taking the battery off if required.
-Ultrawide touch screen with configurable zones/shortcuts (this allows more space on top of the camera for wheel controls and buttons and adding specific controls for the right hand) one can see changing in a hybrid VF

All that in a body evolved from the R but with the joystick AF-ON feature rumored in the 1DXIII.

A camera for nearly everything. I know, I ask way much.


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## Act444 (Nov 13, 2019)

It kinda boggles my mind that people want as much as 80MP to be honest...

I'm curious to see what they do with this new R camera, specifically as a 5DS/R owner. I'd honestly put speed and high ISO performance above more MP as far as improvements I'd like to see. But, I love the OOC color science out of the 5DSR. There's just a vibrancy to its images that the newer cameras in my experience cannot quite match, at least not without a good bit of PP. This includes the 5D4, M6 and now the RP. I'm not getting my hopes up that the "classic look" will make a return.


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## privatebydesign (Nov 13, 2019)

Act444 said:


> It kinda boggles my mind that people want as much as 80MP to be honest...



I'll be taking whatever high MP numbers they give us, I held off on the 5DSr because I refused to buy into the old sensor tech and feel I might have cut off my nose to spite my face with that decision. I shoot very general subjects but do print more than many. To this end I have my own 24" printer and sell framed 24" x 36" prints with some of my work, the style of these prints is normally high contrast and highly detailed and 20MP doesn't cut it, 80MP would give me the detail I want and room to crop without the expense of moving to medium format and the comparatively limited lens selection I'd have doing that.

Here is an example of what I am outputting that I would love 80MP for, high contrast high detail 24" x 36" prints.


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## koenkooi (Nov 13, 2019)

Travel_Photographer said:


> [..]
> For the "physical" specs, I'd much rather hear about the camera in measurable / tangible terms such as metal vs plastic mounts[..]



I know you're talking about camera bodies here, but talk about plastic _lens _mounts get me all fired up. There's at least one teardown on lensrentals.com where Roger goes "Hey look what that metal mount is screwed into, PLASTIC!" I think similar gotchas exist for camera bodies, the appearance of quality isn't always actual quality.


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## Joules (Nov 13, 2019)

Act444 said:


> It kinda boggles my mind that people want as much as 80MP to be honest...


Well, once you do anything where going closer is no option, the alternatives to getting a larger image of your subject is using higher focal length ($$$) or cropping. The former is not really an option for many people, be it because of the associated price or weight. And the latter one only becomes a decent option at high resolutions.

A higher resolution can be converted to a lower one to save files and the image can even be read in crop mode for greater FPS. The other way around, you have to go through some annoying processes to go beyond the limit of your sensor resolution. So you're essentially stuck.

I personally find the thought of going to FF with a camera that let's me keep all the strengths of using a crop DSLR (Pixel density, compatible with EF-S, moderate weight due to mirrorless) very appealing.


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## andrei1989 (Nov 13, 2019)

canon's M division after releasing 1 upgraded body (whose internals they stole from the EF-S division) and another entry-level small upgraded body: "phew, exhausting, better take a sabbatical"


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## PerKr (Nov 13, 2019)

Re the "PRO body" vs "non-PRO body" discussion... Simply put, a PRO body is one designed specifically to be used by professional photographers. All compromises that are made are with a focus on the professional photographer. And not just any type of professional but those who are likely to subject the camera to the harshest conditions rather than those who can baby their cameras in a warm studio. The 1-series is where Canon do this. For many professionals there have always been benefits of using a different camera but that does not mean those cameras were designed with an exclusive focus on professional use and abuse rather than a compromise to attract other types of users.


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## Ozarker (Nov 13, 2019)

PerKr said:


> Re the "PRO body" vs "non-PRO body" discussion... Simply put, a PRO body is one designed specifically to be used by professional photographers. All compromises that are made are with a focus on the professional photographer. And not just any type of professional but those who are likely to subject the camera to the harshest conditions rather than those who can baby their cameras in a warm studio. The 1-series is where Canon do this. For many professionals there have always been benefits of using a different camera but that does not mean those cameras were designed with an exclusive focus on professional use and abuse rather than a compromise to attract other types of users.


I think the term one is looking for is "heavy duty" vs "standard duty"... both of which are used by professionals according to their use case. Some guy scaling mountains is no more the professional than the guy making his living in a studio. The daredevils are few and far between. Whether a guy uses Craftsman vs Snap-on has nothing to do with his competence. The idea that either camp "abuses" his equipment is irrelevant. A professional who does so intentionally is either an idiot or has more money than good sense.

In my opinion there is no such thing as a professional body, just professional photographers... meaning people who have reached a certain level of competence and can make a living at it. All the hand wringing about whether a camera itself is "professional" is a little silly. A person doesn't have to use a 1DX Mark III to be a professional. What makes one a pro is not his gear, but his work. Period.

New Zealander Burt Munro, who set a world land speed record, comes to mind.


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## Kit. (Nov 13, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I think the term one is looking for is "heavy duty" vs "standard duty"... both of which are used by professionals according to their use case. Some guy scaling mountains is no more the professional than the guy making his living in a studio.


Normally, a "professional" tool is a tool that is intended to be used 40+ hours per week and that has a warranty covering such use.


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## Ozarker (Nov 13, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Normally, a "professional" tool is a tool that is intended to be used 40+ hours per week and that has a warranty covering such use.


Ahhhh... like a 70D. 1 year warranty just like a 1 DX. My Craftsman hand tools carry a no questions asked lifetime warranty. Snap-on ask's questions.


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## Memdroid (Nov 13, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I think the term one is looking for is "heavy duty" vs "standard duty"... both of which are used by professionals according to their use case. Some guy scaling mountains is no more the professional than the guy making his living in a studio. The daredevils are few and far between. Whether a guy uses Craftsman vs Snap-on has nothing to do with his competence. The idea that either camp "abuses" his equipment is irrelevant. A professional who does so intentionally is either an idiot or has more money than good sense.



I agree.
I consider myself a professional as photography is my main source of income for the past 14 years and I have burnt through the top segment Canon gear for at least 10 of those, abusively! I currently own 4 bodies, one 1DX2, a pair of 5DIV (one of which needs repairs because it banged up a lot) and the R. I bought the R thinking it was not a serious "pro" camera and have go at the RF primes and play around with it for recreational purposes. I had a love/hate relationship with it and sometimes still do because of the sucky ergonomics BUT this thing is so much fun and after 4 months with and I am using it on 80% of my gigs almost exclusively, even on high demand clients AND harsh conditions. It drowned in a massive champagne shower on a wedding party once where I was in the middle of it, I did not want to stop shooting and miss the moment. Wiped it off afterwards, it got more sticky and smelly but kept on banging like a champ. It never failed to deliver, so far. So yeah, I consider this a pro body just because it does everything that I want it to do in the demanded situations.


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## sanj (Nov 13, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I'll be taking whatever high MP numbers they give us, I held off on the 5DSr because I refused to buy into the old sensor tech and feel I might have cut off my nose to spite my face with that decision. I shoot very general subjects but do print more than many. To this end I have my own 24" printer and sell framed 24" x 36" prints with some of my work, the style of these prints is normally high contrast and highly detailed and 20MP doesn't cut it, 80MP would give me the detail I want and room to crop without the expense of moving to medium format and the comparatively limited lens selection I'd have doing that.
> 
> Here is an example of what I am outputting that I would love 80MP for, high contrast high detail 24" x 36" prints.
> 
> View attachment 187492


Beautiful


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## BillB (Nov 13, 2019)

Act444 said:


> It kinda boggles my mind that people want as much as 80MP to be honest...
> 
> I'm curious to see what they do with this new R camera, specifically as a 5DS/R owner. I'd honestly put speed and high ISO performance above more MP as far as improvements I'd like to see. But, I love the OOC color science out of the 5DSR. There's just a vibrancy to its images that the newer cameras in my experience cannot quite match, at least not without a good bit of PP. This includes the 5D4, M6 and now the RP. I'm not getting my hopes up that the "classic look" will make a return.


Could the gorgeous IQ have something to do with all the mp in the 5DSR sensor, along with the cancelling of the AA filter?


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## criscokkat (Nov 13, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Ahhhh... like a 70D. 1 year warranty just like a 1 DX. My Craftsman hand tools carry a no questions asked lifetime warranty. Snap-on ask's questions.


Unfortunately these days craftsman doesn't ask questions, but you'll be replacing that replacement a year from now too.


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## Kev (Nov 13, 2019)

Will the 80mp R be better at handling noise? With the newer sensor. I heard the 5Ds was terrible with noise


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## privatebydesign (Nov 13, 2019)

sanj said:


> Beautiful


Thanks sanj, I'm trying to post more illustrative images at the moment because I get the feeling to many posts are now not based in any kind of practical reality. I want to show actual examples of any 'issues' or 'limitations' I personally have with the equipment I chose to buy.

As an example, I recently made a simple request of two very regular posters who highly recommend a particular piece of software to post a simple before and after example of the results they are getting and are so impressed with. Neither have.

Of course for my big prints I would have been far better served with a 5DS/r but personally I rely on the durability and reliability of the 1 series bodies, I travel a lot and have found a single 1 series to be reliable enough to not need to carry a 'backup' most of the time, I'm also very used to the various 1 series niceties like AF point linked spot metering, internal viewfinder blind, day long battery life etc.


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## Act444 (Nov 13, 2019)

Joules said:


> Well, once you do anything where going closer is no option, the alternatives to getting a larger image of your subject is using higher focal length ($$$) or cropping. The former is not really an option for many people, be it because of the associated price or weight. And the latter one only becomes a decent option at high resolutions.
> 
> A higher resolution can be converted to a lower one to save files and the image can even be read in crop mode for greater FPS. The other way around, you have to go through some annoying processes to go beyond the limit of your sensor resolution. So you're essentially stuck.
> 
> I personally find the thought of going to FF with a camera that let's me keep all the strengths of using a crop DSLR (Pixel density, compatible with EF-S, moderate weight due to mirrorless) very appealing.



Fair enough, that makes sense. I was in that boat for a while (wanting reach of crop sensor) and then decided that the 5D4 at 30MP was close/good enough to replace a 7D2 for my action pics. I found that I actually didn’t miss the reach as much as I thought I would.


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## Act444 (Nov 13, 2019)

BillB said:


> Could the gorgeous IQ have something to do with all the mp in the 5DSR sensor, along with the cancelling of the AA filter?



I was referring specifically to color science, which I suspect has little or nothing to do with the sensor’s resolution or lack of AA filter. As much as Canon’s older generation of sensors gets lambasted on this forum, I prefer their OOC color output to the current gen. Richer and more vibrant colors (especially reds and yellows) and it’s the combination of all three features above that IMO make that camera so great at what I use it for.


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## scyrene (Nov 13, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Hi res rig is overkill for run and gun assignments if expected output is either screen or a small prints.
> 5DS/R is a specialist camera.



The second statement doesn't follow from the first. "It isn't ideal for one/every specific use case" ≠ "it's a specialist device". I'm another who has used the 5Ds for general purposes - it's not much different from the 5D3 in most regards. It certainly requires more care to get pixel-level sharpness than lower res bodies, but I don't think that makes it a specialist camera, however often some people repeat that opinion (and either way, these are opinions).


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## Ozarker (Nov 13, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> Unfortunately these days craftsman doesn't ask questions, but you'll be replacing that replacement a year from now too.


Nah. I’ve had and used mine for 30 years in industrial settings. No problems.


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## privatebydesign (Nov 13, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> My Craftsman hand tools carry a no questions asked lifetime warranty. Snap-on ask's questions.



Are you sure about that now the Craftsman brand name has been sold to Stanley Black and Decker and they are almost exclusively made in China? Sears have been deliberately run into the ground as an asset stripping operation and Stanley Black and Decker will have no commitment to any holding company that was owned by Sears in a few years time. I fear for the Craftsman brand in the longer term.

I used to work with Snap-On tools and I never had a question asked about breakages, any damaged tools were immediately replaced or fixed for free and I dealt with around half a dozen franchisees.


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## Ozarker (Nov 13, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Are you sure about that now the Craftsman brand name has been sold to Stanley Black and Decker and they are almost exclusively made in China? Sears have been deliberately run into the ground as an asset stripping operation and Stanley Black and Decker will have no commitment to any holding company that was owned by Sears in a few years time. I fear for the Craftsman brand in the longer term.
> 
> I used to work with Snap-On tools and I never had a question asked about breakages, any damaged tools were immediately replaced or fixed for free and I dealt with around half a dozen franchisees.


I had friends who exclusively bought Snap-On, Mac, etc. If a wrench showed signs of being beaten by a hammer (to free up a nut or bolt) then warranty was denied. Never such a problem with Craftsman's UNCONDITIONAL warranty (at the time, anyway).

From Snap-on's website: "In addition to any limitations outlined in warranty statements provided with the Product, Snap-on does NOT provide any warranty for (1) products labeled other than Snap-on or Blue-Point or (2) products subjected to "abnormal use". Products that are not labeled Snap-on or Blue-Point are subject to the warranty provided by the manufacturers of those products and Snap-on will pass along any such warranties. "Abnormal use" includes misuse, accident, modification, unreasonable use, abuse, neglect, lack of maintenance, use in product-related service, or use after the product is significantly worn. Abnormal use of tool storage units also includes, without limitation, situations when a unit is pulled using a mechanical vehicle, rolled over large drops, used in a highly corrosive environment, used as a step stool, modified with non-Snap-on parts, overloaded or modified in any way. "

From Craftsman: https://www.craftsman.com/customer-care/warranty-information

Of course, my tools were purchased during the Reagan administration. I have replaced 1 screwdriver I used as a chisel. No questions asked. I replaced many tools because I worked in a lot of acid (cupric, nitric, etc.) with no questions asked. My friends using Mac and Snap-on were denied warranty because those companies determined the tools were abused in such an environment. The only other alternative would have been titanium tools, but nobody was going to spend on those. I stuck to Craftsman.

Anyway, the point is that a 1DX carries no more warranty than the Rebels. 1 year. So paying extra doesn't guarantee anything. It doesn't make it more professional, although we would all agree it is a much tougher camera. It will take more abuse. But people saying they abuse their equipment because it can be abused more are just silly. If I had a 1DX... I would baby it.


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## SecureGSM (Nov 13, 2019)

With al


scyrene said:


> The second statement doesn't follow from the first. "It isn't ideal for one/every specific use case" ≠ "it's a specialist device". I'm another who has used the 5Ds for general purposes - it's not much different from the 5D3 in most regards. It certainly requires more care to get pixel-level sharpness than lower res bodies, but I don't think that makes it a specialist camera, however often some people repeat that opinion (and either way, these are opinions).


With all due respect, your case is an exception. The majority of event shooters would resort to a lower resolution cameras. This is an opinion.


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## dtaylor (Nov 13, 2019)

Kev said:


> Will the 80mp R be better at handling noise? With the newer sensor. I heard the 5Ds was terrible with noise



5Ds noise levels are competitive with other FF cameras even today. It's a myth that higher pixel density leads to higher noise. There are small differences between sensors of course, but the idea that high MP sensors are 'terrible with noise' is driven by pixel peeping where high MP files are magnified much more. Look up any review of the 5Ds where the reviewers actually compared images/prints at the same view size and you'll find they were happy with the high ISO performance. (And no, I don't know why Canon capped it at ISO 12,800. It could have had 25,600. 25,600 was the practical limit for any other camera in 2015 and remains so for most today.)

It should be noted that there was a time when 'higher pixel density = more noise' was true, but that was before gapless microlenses. And those were introduced a decade ago.

It's also a myth that there are large improvements between sensor generations in high ISO. It's not the 2000's any more. For most (all?) of this decade high ISO shots have been dominated by photon shot noise. Read noise is very well controlled in modern sensors even when compared to dedicated astro cameras. Some reviewers are starting to openly express disappointment with newer cameras that don't improve high ISO (see A7r IV reviews), but that is a result of not understanding just where we're at with high ISO. The only way to make major gains at this point are:
* Remove the CFA, which leaves you with B&W photos but gives you nearly 1ev more sensitivity.
* Actively cool the sensor. And I don't mean heatsinks or better body design. You have to really drop the temperatures like some astro cameras do. Kiss your battery and weather sealing goodbye.
* Taking multiple shots in rapid succession and stacking them with an algorithm that can deal with motion differences. Cell phones have gone this direction.

tl;dr - the high resolution R will not be substantially better or worse than any of today's FF cameras from a noise perspective at high ISO. It will be sharper with more detail which gives you more options when processing high ISO RAWs and applying NR.


----------



## dtaylor (Nov 13, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> With all due respect, your case is an exception. The majority of event shooters would resort to a lower resolution cameras. This is an opinion.


I find it hard to shoot anything at a lower resolution given the flexibility available at high resolution. I shoot sports at 50mp RAW because I would rather manage the RAW buffer then deal with anything less.

That said: there are mraw and sraw modes on the 5Ds, along with a large number of JPEG resolutions. I see no reason why the high resolution R won't have these as well. The 'Rs' won't be a niche camera due to resolution, but due to price. I imagine most people would rather pay less for less megapixels and maybe a small bump in fps or better video features.

Canon always had far more aggressive pricing on the 5Ds/sR models in Asia and almost from their release date they could be found for $2k gray market. Maybe we'll get lucky and the same will be true for the Rs.


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## sanj (Nov 13, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Thanks sanj, I'm trying to post more illustrative images at the moment because I get the feeling to many posts are now not based in any kind of practical reality. I want to show actual examples of any 'issues' or 'limitations' I personally have with the equipment I chose to buy.
> 
> As an example, I recently made a simple request of two very regular posters who highly recommend a particular piece of software to post a simple before and after example of the results they are getting and are so impressed with. Neither have.
> 
> Of course for my big prints I would have been far better served with a 5DS/r but personally I rely on the durability and reliability of the 1 series bodies, I travel a lot and have found a single 1 series to be reliable enough to not need to carry a 'backup' most of the time, I'm also very used to the various 1 series niceties like AF point linked spot metering, internal viewfinder blind, day long battery life etc.


Dear Private. Are you sure that you would have been 'far better' served with 5DSR? I mean are you sure the difference in 4ft * 3ft print would be 'far' noticeable between prints made by 1d and 5dsR? I suspect you would have to go much larger to see a 'far' difference. Please educate.


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## scyrene (Nov 14, 2019)

Kev said:


> Will the 80mp R be better at handling noise? With the newer sensor. I heard the 5Ds was terrible with noise



Don't believe everything you hear...


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## scyrene (Nov 14, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> With all due respect, your case is an exception. The majority of event shooters would resort to a lower resolution cameras. This is an opinion.



Oh I don't disagree. And they'd be right to do that. But unless I was getting the wrong end of the stick, my issue was with the oft-repeated opinion that the 5Ds(R) is a specialist camera. I contend it is perfectly capable of generalist use as is any 5-series body. Even if most people don't use it that way, it _can_ be used as such. (And if they don't, I'd wager it's in part because of just such perceptions). That's all I'm saying


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## SecureGSM (Nov 14, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> I find it hard to shoot anything at a lower resolution given the flexibility available at high resolution. I shoot sports at 50mp RAW because I would rather manage the RAW buffer then deal with anything less.
> 
> That said: there are mraw and sraw modes on the 5Ds, along with a large number of JPEG resolutions. I see no reason why the high resolution R won't have these as well. The 'Rs' won't be a niche camera due to resolution, but due to price. I imagine most people would rather pay less for less megapixels and maybe a small bump in fps or better video features.
> 
> Canon always had far more aggressive pricing on the 5Ds/sR models in Asia and almost from their release date they could be found for $2k gray market. Maybe we'll get lucky and the same will be true for the Rs.



I believe that Canon learnt their lesson with 5DS/R and market is better understood for them by now. 
A ultra high res rig is an appealing proposition to many beyond the PJ and run and gun crowd. 

I have no visibility into 5dS/R vs 5DIV sales data but would hazard a guess that market emphasis is on the 5D IV jack of all trades camera body. 

I have never bumped o to an event, run and gun or pJ photog running with 5DS/R. I have done a fair number of public presos, public openings and red carpet gigs. All I see is: 5D III/IV and 1DX /II


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## SecureGSM (Nov 14, 2019)

Gotcha! You are correct. 5DSR is a capable camera that can certainly be used for a lower res, bread and butter shooting. 
However my understanding is that the camera is optimised for a different type of work. 
In my view there’re are two type of cameras: generalist type of camera and a specialist type of camera. 

1DX and 5DS/r are a specialist type, pro cameras. 
5D, 6D, 7D - a generalist type, pro camera. 

You get the gist.


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## Quarkcharmed (Nov 14, 2019)

Phase One XT Instagram promo account reached out to me and said it wants to be in my camera bag. It sounded funny but then I realised Canon isn't on par with my demands. Also I'm very tired of waiting for the high res Canon beast.
I'm switching to Phase One shortly, just waiting for the next lottery round, I only need a jackpot.


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## Jack Douglas (Nov 14, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Ahhhh... like a 70D. 1 year warranty just like a 1 DX. My Craftsman hand tools carry a no questions asked lifetime warranty. Snap-on ask's questions.



And up here in Canada Craftsman no longer even exists (Sears is gone)! Now, what's my warranty? 

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Nov 14, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Thanks sanj, I'm trying to post more illustrative images at the moment because I get the feeling to many posts are now not based in any kind of practical reality. I want to show actual examples of any 'issues' or 'limitations' I personally have with the equipment I chose to buy.
> 
> As an example, I recently made a simple request of two very regular posters who highly recommend a particular piece of software to post a simple before and after example of the results they are getting and are so impressed with. Neither have.
> 
> Of course for my big prints I would have been far better served with a 5DS/r but personally I rely on the durability and reliability of the 1 series bodies, I travel a lot and have found a single 1 series to be reliable enough to not need to carry a 'backup' most of the time, I'm also very used to the various 1 series niceties like AF point linked spot metering, internal viewfinder blind, day long battery life etc.



Scott, I could swear you were once debating with us that "I'm also very used to the various 1 series niceties like AF point linked spot metering" was marginally pointless?? 

Jack


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## Keith_Reeder (Nov 14, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Keith, what are your observations in relation to optimal shutter speed requirements for shooting stationary subjects with 90D?
> I shoot with two 5D IV bodies. I found that my sweet spot is around 1/FLx1.5.
> I do not shoot people slower than1/60 no matter what even at a UW angles.
> Thank you.
> ...


I'll be honest and say I've got no real science behind my preferences. Because I shoot hand-held with long lenses (typically the 500mm f/4 with a 1.4x on my 1D x; or lately, the 100-400mm with a 1.4x on my M6 Mk II), I simply aim for as high a shutter speed as I can achieve that will deal with whatever behaviour I can expect of the subject matter. 

"Stationary" objects for me are calm birds or other wildlife, so I need to cover off the prospect of them suddenly becoming _not_ stationary.

I'm rarely below 1/800 then (which is less than the 1/FL x 1.5 rule) - that's where my M6 Mk II has been since I got it, even for the rugby game I shot with it - but I'm north of 1/1000 if I'm shooting subjects I know will be active. And this is as much to back up the IS in the lenses as it is any overt need to capture movement: good as the stabilisation is, I appreciate the comfort-blanket of a fast shutter speed, especially given how windy my part of the world tends to be.

Not much help to your described scenario, sorry!


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## Keith_Reeder (Nov 14, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> 5Ds noise levels are competitive with other FF cameras even today. It's a myth that higher pixel density leads to higher noise.


Y'know, tired as I am of reading that more pixels = more noise, I suspect I'll miss seeing it when the penny finally drops - disagreeing with the notion has been a significant part of my online life for more than ten years!


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## Keith_Reeder (Nov 14, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> As an example, I recently made a simple request of two very regular posters who highly recommend a particular piece of software to post a simple before and after example of the results they are getting and are so impressed with. Neither have.


*And as I made very clear to you at the time, I will when the software supports the camera I'm currently using. Although your continued snide banging-on about it is really starting to wear thin...*

Besides - to follow the gist of the point you're making - I _have_ before now posted high ISO examples of Photo Ninja's output in the context of demonstrating its value to me at high ISOs: you're not the only one who believes in backing up what he writes with examples.


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## Jack Douglas (Nov 14, 2019)

It's all well and good to provide examples; I wish there were more, but in many cases there are so many variables that not that much is accomplished. In the end all we really have is opinions and we must weigh the opinions against the degree of respect the person stating them has garnered with us. So, each of us, with our biases, read what's posted and agree or disagree and hopefully in the process learn a little... and_ hopefully get a chuckle now and then_. 

Jack


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## Aaron Lozano (Nov 14, 2019)

Act444 said:


> It kinda boggles my mind that people want as much as 80MP to be honest...
> 
> I'm curious to see what they do with this new R camera, specifically as a 5DS/R owner. I'd honestly put speed and high ISO performance above more MP as far as improvements I'd like to see. But, I love the OOC color science out of the 5DSR. There's just a vibrancy to its images that the newer cameras in my experience cannot quite match, at least not without a good bit of PP. This includes the 5D4, M6 and now the RP. I'm not getting my hopes up that the "classic look" will make a return.



I cannot say I don't understand you. I still use a 5DIII, the files are quick to load + process. But I feelI could have cleaner images in Low ISO and a better AF in low light while also adding a higher resolution. 

Let's say I have an 83MP sensor, why should all the pics be 83MP? that's why Canon created MRAW and SRAW. If you can get MRAW at 41MP and SRAW at 20.5 with a cleaner ISO and higher fps...Why would you complain about having that flexibility?


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## privatebydesign (Nov 14, 2019)

Jack Douglas said:


> Scott, I could swear you were once debating with us that "I'm also very used to the various 1 series niceties like AF point linked spot metering" was marginally pointless??
> 
> Jack


It does, in my opinion, have very limited value and is prone to getting unhelpful exposures unless you are quick to adjust exposure and really understand what metering is doing and what it is trying to give you. My comments in previous threads were pointing to the fact that I believe putting that feature in all cameras would end up creating more mossed shots and unhappiness at the camera than making shots. 

But I concede I might well be wrong...


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## sanj (Nov 14, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> It does, in my opinion, have very limited value and is prone to getting unhelpful exposures unless you are quick to adjust exposure and really understand what metering is doing and what it is trying to give you. My comments in previous threads were pointing to the fact that I believe putting that feature in all cameras would end up creating more mossed shots and unhappiness at the camera than making shots.
> 
> But I concede I might well be wrong...


Auto exposure connected to the focus point is a BRILLIANT feature.  I switch to manual when I do not want this feature.


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## Memirsbrunnr (Nov 14, 2019)

melgross said:


> Well, the high Rez mirrorless body is what a bunch of us here have been waiting for.
> 
> so, that body, and three fast zooms will all that I would need for most things, plus a high quality 100mm, or so, macro. My daughter seems to have misplaced the 100mm EF.


"daughters eh?"


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## SecureGSM (Nov 14, 2019)

Aaron Lozano said:


> I cannot say I don't understand you. I still use a 5DIII, the files are quick to load + process. But I feelI could have cleaner images in Low ISO and a better AF in low light while also adding a higher resolution.
> 
> Let's say I have an 83MP sensor, why should all the pics be 83MP? that's why Canon created MRAW and SRAW. If you can get MRAW at 41MP and SRAW at 20.5 with a cleaner ISO and higher fps...Why would you complain about having that flexibility?


It depends on how lossless that mRAW and sRAW options are.... free cheese?


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## dtaylor (Nov 15, 2019)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Y'know, tired as I am of reading that more pixels = more noise, I suspect I'll miss seeing it when the penny finally drops - disagreeing with the notion has been a significant part of my online life for more than ten years!



Keith, I'm going to be bored to tears when that day comes


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## koenkooi (Nov 15, 2019)

sanj said:


> Auto exposure connected to the focus point is a BRILLIANT feature.  I switch to manual when I do not want this feature.



There's a huge difference between "exposure weighted towards focus point" and "focus point linked spot metering". I'm very happy with the weighting my RP assigns to the focus point, I'm not sure if proper spot metering would improve things.

And yes, it's a brilliant feature. I attended a nature workshop last weekend and during the instruction about shooting backlit animals the instructor remarked that on my RP I don't need to fight the camera metering as much as the crop DSLR users


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## Jack Douglas (Nov 15, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> There's a huge difference between "exposure weighted towards focus point" and "focus point linked spot metering". I'm very happy with the weighting my RP assigns to the focus point, I'm not sure if proper spot metering would improve things.
> 
> And yes, it's a brilliant feature. I attended a nature workshop last weekend and during the instruction about shooting backlit animals the instructor remarked that on my RP I don't need to fight the camera metering as much as the crop DSLR users



The spot metered by the 1DX2 is small and for bird photography with auto ISO I find it works very well. It is also handy as a spot meter when manually setting exposure.

Jack


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## AlanF (Nov 15, 2019)

Jack Douglas said:


> The spot metered by the 1DX2 is small and for bird photography with auto ISO I find it works very well. It is also handy as a spot meter when manually setting exposure.
> 
> Jack


Similarly for all my Canon DSLRs.


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## canonmike (Nov 16, 2019)

Given the large decline in camera sales this yr, across all brands, including both DSLRs and Mirrorless total unit sales, it's somewhat surprising that Canon, Nikon, etc., continue to crank out all these new products. I, for one, am especially grateful that Canon continues to develop and market all these new RF lenses, as we also eagerly wait for the next gen R bodies to come to market, enhancing our ability to take full advantage of the aforementioned. Shortly, the big box camera stores will parade their Black Fri sales and inundate our email boxes with their promos. Should be some great sales going on shortly, especially on the DLSR bodies. Last yr, I picked up a 6d Mark ii body, a free Canon grip and accident and spills warranty for what I considered a bargain price of only $1099.00. Who knows what we'll see with this yr's sale promos across both DSLR and Mirrorless lines. Can't wait for those bargains, as we've already seen price drops prior to Black Fri sales. Just hope I've saved up enough money to take advantage of them.


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## Cyborx (Nov 16, 2019)

By the time Canon launches a mirrorless pro body, we are either all retired, or all using Sony. My oh my, Canon is slow these days.. it seems they cannot keep up with other brands that are in te mirrorless market. Just give us a mirrorless pro body, NOW!


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## Aaron Lozano (Nov 16, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> It depends on how lossless that mRAW and sRAW options are.... free cheese?


I have never done much extreme editing in sports or portraits but I have done pretty much in landscape. What about cleaner binned images, specially the small RAW one?


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## Kit. (Nov 16, 2019)

Cyborx said:


> By the time Canon launches a mirrorless pro body, we are either all retired, or all using Sony. My oh my, Canon is slow these days.. it seems they cannot keep up with other brands that are in te mirrorless market. Just give us a mirrorless pro body, NOW!


What are all those "other brands" with "mirrorless pro bodies" you are talking about? A "pro" wannabe from Sony (A9II) and...?


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Joules said:


> What's that supposed to mean? It can't be a proper 5DS replacement without being a pro camera, or does it? I understood those terms to mean that the camera has two card slots and a bit better weather sealing than the R. Maybe an upgraded viewfinder.
> 
> With over a year of additional development time and a price tag above the R, I would have considered these a given.
> 
> What is the high res R expected to be missing?



It doesn't really say the high megapixel camera won't be "pro grade", but it won't be an "all purpose" pro camera, either, in the same way that the 5D Mark III and 5D Mark IV are general purpose "pro" bodies compared to the 5Ds/5Ds R that are less general purpose and more "specialized high resolution" bodies.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> And yet it will still have superior resolution, and greater cropping potential, to lower MP bodies under the same conditions. Which is all that potential buyers will be interested in.



Of course they will, because only potential buyers who want a very high MP camera and are willing to sacrifice handling speed will be interested in it.

Those who want a more balanced, general purpose pro body to replace their 5D Mark IV will not be interested in it.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Cryve said:


> Ive got an interesting story as to why im possibly very interested in the high mp canon eos r camera.
> 
> 
> over the past two years i felt a bit let down by canon for not supporting the "low budged" wildlife community as much as wished for. I had really hoped for the 7d iii and when the rumors about no 7d iii and only a 90d showed up i was very disappointed.
> ...



What is your testing methodology?


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Adelino said:


> Canon have outright stated that is what they consider pro. A LOT of pros consider other cameras pro.



Canon has said that a lot in the past, but not so much since the introduction of the 5D Mark III with a 1-series level AF system and dual card slots.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

RiceCanon said:


> I'd be very interested in a high megapixel mirrorless camera but only if it has specs good for birding/wildlife, namely great focus and tracking, good high ISO performance and fast fps. Introduce it with a new 100-400 or 200-600 lens and I'm on board!



Yeah, and I'd like a high performance sports car that gets 60 mpg, too.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Joules said:


> For what reason specifically would you expect that to be the case with the high res R as well?



Frame rate and file sizes.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

geffy said:


> how do you suffer backfocus with a mirrorless, is that not a mirror issue?



It can also be a lens issue, specifically if the AF motor doesn't move exactly the amount the camera tells it to, particularly in high speed shooting modes when the camera might not do a "confirmation" AF reading after the lens has moved. It can also be a loose lens/camera interface that allows the lens to move slightly in relation to the sensor after AF has been locked.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

TMHKR said:


> I'm wondering as well, how can a focal plane-based focusing camera (that is, one that uses main sensor for focusing) front/back focus?



It can be a lens issue, specifically if the AF motor doesn't move exactly the amount the camera tells it to, particularly in high speed shooting modes when the camera might not do a "confirmation" AF reading after the lens has moved. Or it can be a lens issue where the AF position is not held between AF lock and exposure. It can also be a loose lens/camera interface that allows the lens to move slightly in relation to the sensor after AF has been locked.


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## Cryve (Nov 17, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> What is your testing methodology?


The camera has a feature where when you press the af-on button, when reviewing pictures, it zoomes in very close and exactly there, where the camera focused.
when i take pictures in generall, but also on a tripod, then the area a few centimeters behind the position i wanted to focus on is clearly sharper then what i (and the camera) focused on.

its consistent across all images, but its a very small backfocus. My dealership clearly saw the error when i showed them and could also replikate it themselves, but the sony repair center here in germany can currently not reprocude it and i dont know why. its super obvious to me, and all my friends can see it. dunno why the sony center cant see it.
i currently have it in repair and it seems like they are gonna send it back saying "camera works fine"... then i dont have any legal basis for a refund or even a working camera because the repair shop says it works -.-

Edit: the repairshop has the Camera AND Lens with that the dealer and i can see the backfocus, so either way either on the lens or camera they should be able to find the backfocus but they dont.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

SkynetTX said:


> I'm really glad that so many "pro" cameras and lenses will be released in the next few months but would like to know when we will have any new EF-S lenses and/or entrly level cameras with a bit improved performance. Let's say an 1200D Mark II with 18 MP sensor but all 9 cross-type and f/5.6 sensitive AF-points and Digic 6 processor.



That upgrade (and more) is called the EOS RebelT7i/800D. I doubt you'll ever see all cross-type AF points in the 1xxxD series.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Freddie said:


> I use the 5DSr for landscape, architecture, macro, focus-stacking, etc. Although 83mp would be interesting to work with, the file processing times would certainly be very long. I could imagine someone using such a high megapixel count for action and wildlife but I could never imagine how I would do that. It will be interesting to see what such a camera body looks like if it arrives. I would certainly consider something along those lines as a replacement for the 5DSr. The mirrorless system would work perfectly well for my purposes.



Do you mean the 5Ds R?


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

barryreid said:


> I’m very much waiting for the higher MP Eos R. For one project I have been shooting TS-E lenses on a 5Ds in low light. Getting pixel sharp with those lenses, in those conditions is a chore without an EVF.



If you are wanting pixel sharp images, surely you are using a tripod? Why not use the magnified AF with Live View?


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Punio said:


> For many 5D owners like me hoping to move to mirrorless, an 80mp camera is too much. So I hope you’re wrong on that and we get both



Is it possible criscokkat was talking about the 5Ds and 5Ds R replacements being combined, not the 5Ds and the 5D Mark IV replacements?


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

docsmith said:


> Regarding new DSLRs, all I know is that the 5DIV has seen some price drops consistent with being replaced in the next 12 months.



The entire Canon EOS line (other than perhaps the 1D X Mark II) has seen price drops recently. It seems to be based more on market demand than product cycles at this point. As the overall market continues to shrink, Canon seems to have decided to compete more on price than they have in the past.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> This is purely a marketing perception. My 5Ds has taken over everything...including sports, wildlife, and airshows...and the only thing I find wanting is the RAW buffer depth. It's even handling astro very well. I'm not sure why Canon pitched it as a 'narrow use' camera other than to preserve the higher USA price, or why so many reviewers presented it that way. There weren't any real differences (for stills) between it and the 5D3 except of course for that gorgeous sensor, and it handles every photographic situation well. Someone might point out file size or processing times, but you can always shoot in 28mp mraw.
> 
> Those looking for a true 5D4 equivalent mirrorless for stills will likely be satisfied by the high resolution R if they just use mraw when they don't want the full 83mp. The drawback will be the price, not a use or situation limiting spec.
> 
> Now for video I don't expect the high resolution R to be top of the line. It would be nice to be wrong here, but even the Sony A7r's have lower quality video than their 24mp brothers. It's just too much data to scale down at high quality. But for stills the 5Ds/sR are not actually narrow use cameras, and I don't expect the high resolution R to be either.



Haven't you noticed that the latest cameras Canon has introduced with .cr3 raw files and C-RAW do not include the M-RAW and S-RAW options?


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

jdavidse said:


> I don’t need the “pro” R body if that means a 1DX type. What I need is a 5D equivalent, with redundant card slots and at least 8fps. If an 80mp body is what canon chooses to release at this juncture in the schedule, I can only guess that they are consolidating the 5D and 5Ds equivalents into a single camera for the RF Mount. If that is true, then I really hope that they have a solution for those of us that don’t want or need 80mp. Say, 40 or 30mp M-RAW option would be perfect.



Since moving to CR3 raw files, Canon has not included the M-RAW and S-RAW options in those cameras.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Added via a firmware update no less!
> 
> Jokes aside, a few ideas occur to me regarding OVF DPAF that I'm sure Canon engineers have considered at some point:
> 
> ...



Do you realize the current 90D "metering sensor" is basically an RGB+IR 220,000 pixel CMOS sensor? And that the 1D X Mark II, 1D X, 5D Mark IV, 7D Mark II, 80D, 77D, Rebel T7i/800d, etc. have similar RGB+IR metering sensors?


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Added via a firmware update no less!
> 
> Jokes aside, a few ideas occur to me regarding OVF DPAF that I'm sure Canon engineers have considered at some point:
> 
> ...



As for ripping out the mirror, it's called "Live View."


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> 40 or 30mp M-RAW option would be perfect, provided there is no an IQ loss associated with shooting in M-RAW.



Have you not noticed that the newer EOS cameras with .cr3 raw files do not include the M-RAW and S-RAW options?


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> It’s not that big of a bump. The 5Ds and 5Dr were both 50.6 mp. That’s about the same % of a jump from 5d3 to 5d4.



But the jump from a 30MP 5D Mark IV (or even 24MP 5D Mark III) to an 80+ MP EOS Rs is a LOT bigger than the jump from a 24MP 5D Mark III to a 30 MP 5D Mark IV. Why do you keep conflating people coming from a 30MP 5D Mark IV with people coming from a 50MP 5Ds/5Ds R?


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

mb66energy said:


> I bet a 80 Mpix camera will have a 20 Mpix RAW mode where each image pixel has data from its own R, GG, B cells which might give you unprecedented IQ at medium high resolutions and that is one reason for such a camera.
> In situations where resolution is required (with the right lens, tripod/enough light) you can do the "Bayer-trick" and you have 80 MPix.
> Just with the 20 MPix mode file size would be 14+15+14 =43 bits per pixel resulting in 40...60 MByte files (with lossless compression). But this is half the file size and maybe 1/10th of the computing power (no debayering) so should be much faster compared to 80 MPix full res files.
> 20 MPix mode - Screen and small prints
> 80 MPix mode - large advertising posters, BIF for those who search the bird afterwards



You'd still need to debeyer. The colors of the filters in the Bayer mask are far from the colors we use in our RGB reproduction systems. Particularly in the "red" channel, most Bayer masks are centered on about 590nm (which is a slightly orange version of yellow) rather than 640nm, which is what we use for "Red" in RGB additive (screens that emit light) trichromatic color reproduction systems. The "blue" filters in a Bayer mask are usually centered around 455nm, instead of 480nm "Blue", and the "green" filters are centered at around 540nm, rather than 525nm "Green".


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

mb66energy said:


> 70 135 f/2 would be very nice including 10 sessions in a fitness studio (2kg +)
> I would be satisfied with a 100mm macro with f/2 resolving my dilemma with two lenses (2.8 macro + 2.0 100mm).
> Add an RF 50 f/2 macro and this would maybe my preferred setup if I will ever switch to FF.



The problem with making a 100mm f/2 macro is that it's really difficult (and expensive, and heavy) to do flat field correction required for macro lenses out past an around f/2.8 sized entrance pupil. The EF 100mm f/2 leaves a lot of field curvature uncorrected (which is often desirable in a portrait lens, as it gives smoother out of focus areas), but field curvature is a death sentence for a macro lens (which doesn't worry about out of focus areas as much since it's specifically designed to image flat 2D objects at close distances).


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

ojanmovich said:


> I don't understand why they don't care about the EF-M series, why they released m6 mk ii but let it limit with a row of shit lenses, I only use 32mm and 22mm, honestly I don't like using adapters



There's a big difference between an "adapter" that merely provides needed spacing between an EOS-M body and an EOS EF lens that are both part of the EOS system and use protocols built on the same core and an "ADAPTER" meant to put a lens from one manufacturer on a camera from another manufacturer. The EF to RF and EF to EOS-M "adapters" are simpler and less likely to cause image degradation, exposure, or AF performance issues than Canon's EF 1.4X or Ef 2X extenders are.


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> because it is not rugged enough to withstand a commercial use:
> 
> CPS membership is only available to professionals who own eligible EOS 1D, EOS 5D, L-series lens and Cinema EOS products (view eligible products).
> there you have it.



That all depends upon what marketing area you're in. CPS in the U.S. is very different from CPS in Canada, which is very different from CPS in Europe with regard to what products do and do not qualify.


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> I don't understand why the 7d2 is not considered 'professional' . So what if it has a crop sensor. Everything else about it is absolutely top shelf and it is a camera regularly used by professional photographers. Makes no sense really



In the U.S., the 7D Mark II earns points towards the CPS membership tiers. Even the 7D still gets one point. The 5D Mark II recently "aged out" and is no longer worth any qualifying points.



Edit: Or maybe they just listed it below the EOS 5Ds R instead of with the 5D Mark IV and 5D Mark III...


----------



## Sharlin (Nov 17, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Do you realize the current 90D "metering sensor" is basically an RGB+IR 220,000 pixel CMOS sensor? And that the 1D X Mark II, 1D X, 5D Mark IV, 7D Mark II, 80D, 77D, Rebel T7i/800d, etc. have similar RGB+IR metering sensors?



I definitely do. But it's not a _DPAF_ metering sensor. As to the resolution, the idea was mainly that upping it to the megapixel range would improve feature detection, bringing it closer to what a DPAF main image sensor is capable of.



Michael Clark said:


> As for ripping out the mirror, it's called "Live View."



Note that I said _secondary_ mirror. That is, instead of taking the light that goes through the semitransparent part of the main mirror and redirecting it to a PDAF sensor, just let it hit the image sensor (the shutter would be open like in full Live View) and let DPAF do its job. The idea is that _OVF would remain available. _The effective aperture and thus the achievable phase difference would be constrained, and there would be vignetting, of course.


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

AaronT said:


> I'm not picking an argument with you, just making a statement. There is nothing wrong with overkill, might not be for everyone but if you only want 1 camera to do it all then a high MP camera can. You just have to be willing to carry the overhead of more HD capacity. As far as shutter speed is concerned what's the problem? Here are 2 shots from this morning that were shot hand held. The first is 1/6 sec at 6400 ISO through my kitchen window, the second 1/60 sec at 500 ISO, both with the 5DsR and 24-70 F4. I couldn't do any better with my 5D MK II 21 MP. I don't have a problem with shutter speed. Exactly! The last is a 100% crop. My 5D MK II couldn't do that nearly as well. Just saying................
> View attachment 187473
> 
> 
> ...



"
I'm not picking an argument with you, just making a statement. There is nothing wrong with overkill, might not be for everyone but if you only want 1 camera to do it all then a high MP camera can."

So how about shooting 10+ fps for sports/action/wildlife in motion?

No single camera can "do it all" as well as other cameras can for specific purposes. High MP cameras are specialized tools, just as very high frame rate cameras are. More general "all purpose" cameras balance the suitability for most use cases somewhere in between the extremes of the specialty cameras.


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

unfocused said:


> And you will wrong 90 percent of the time.



How did you infer that number?


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> I definitely do. But it's not a _DPAF_ metering sensor. As to the resolution, the idea was mainly that upping it to the megapixel range would improve feature detection, bringing it closer to what a DPAF main image sensor is capable of.



Even at lower resolutions, the cameras with enough processing power to do iTR integrate the input from the RGB metering sensor with the input from the PDAF sensor for tracking moving subjects.



Sharlin said:


> Note that I said _secondary_ mirror. That is, instead of taking the light that goes through the semitransparent part of the main mirror and redirecting it to a PDAF sensor, just let it hit the image sensor (the shutter would be open like in full Live View) and let DPAF do its job. The idea is that _OVF would remain available. _The effective aperture and thus the achievable phase difference would be constrained, and there would be vignetting, of course.



I did miss the "secondary" part of that.


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Precisely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know people who make a significant portion (i.e. over 50%) of their income from photography whose work is pretty much pure mediocrity or worse. Classifying whether a photographer is a "pro" or not based on the quality of their photographic work makes about as much sense as classifying a camera as "pro" or not based on its specs. What most independent "pro" photographers are very good at is marketing and running a business.


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Viggo said:


> Yeah, perhaps not that shallow, but at 50 mp the 5dsr is at 6.3 or something.



The APS-C 32.5MP EOS 90D, which has the same pixel density as a FF 83MP sensor would, has a DLA of f/5.2.


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Travel_Photographer said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Also, on the Canon Professional Services site, devoted specifically to cameras and equipment that *they* deem to be used in a professional manner and thus are covered under the specialized CPS repair plan, the Canon R is one of the cameras. As a matter of fact, in "qualifying points" which is what you need to gain CPS repair status, the EOS R ranks higher than the 5D Mark III. I'd find it hard to argue that Canon doesn't consider the R one of their cameras that is used in a professional setting.
> 
> ...




Points are also partially based on the age of a model (when it was introduced and when it was replaced).

The 5D Mark II (as of 11/17/2019) no longer earns any points and is no longer qualified for CPS repairs in the U.S. It once was worth at least 5 points. The 5D Mark III was introduced in 2012 and replaced in 2016 (three years ago), the R is a current camera that was only introduced in 2018.

Edit: Or maybe they just listed it below the EOS 5Ds R instead of with the 5D Mark IV and 5D Mark III... 

The EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L is no longer worth any qualifying points, but is still eligible for CPS repairs (as of 11/17/2019). Introduced in 2002, it was replaced by the EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L II in 2012. At one time it was worth 6-8 points.


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I can't decipher what the acronym stand for... DLA,



Diffraction Limited Aperture


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Somebody else from another thread posted this. Foof for thought:



Who's got 7 minutes to watch a video? how about summarizing their main point?


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Aaron Lozano said:


> My wish list for the next mirror-less cam:
> 
> 83MP camera with Medium and small RAW modes (41 and 20MP) also crop modes included to use APSC framing in the Viewfinder.
> 
> ...



That may or may not happen, but all of the Canon cameras introduced with .cr3 raw output do not offer M-RAW and S-RAW options. The only raw options are uncompressed (RAW) or slightly compressed (C-RAW) full resolution raw output.

Pixel binning isn't as simple as some folks think. The 'red', 'green', and 'blue' filters on Bayer arrays are NOT the same colors as the "RED", "GREEN", and "BLUE" used in RGB color space. There are significant differences, particularly with 'red' filters centered on about 590nm (yellow with just a touch of orange) compared to 640nm ("RED" in the RGB system).

Too many scenarios require removable memory so that runners can move files to the next point in the distribution chain while the camera is still being used to shoot an event for there to be a "pro" camera body with non-removable memory. Also, flash memory has a limited number of write cycles. At some point the internal SSD will need replacing. And you'll need *dual* SSDs to provide the same redundancy of dual card slots.


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I think the term one is looking for is "heavy duty" vs "standard duty"... both of which are used by professionals according to their use case. Some guy scaling mountains is no more the professional than the guy making his living in a studio. The daredevils are few and far between. Whether a guy uses Craftsman vs Snap-on has nothing to do with his competence. The idea that either camp "abuses" his equipment is irrelevant. A professional who does so intentionally is either an idiot or has more money than good sense.
> 
> In my opinion there is no such thing as a professional body, just professional photographers... meaning people who have reached a certain level of competence and can make a living at it. All the hand wringing about whether a camera itself is "professional" is a little silly. A person doesn't have to use a 1DX Mark III to be a professional. What makes one a pro is not his gear, but his work. Period.
> 
> New Zealander Burt Munro, who set a world land speed record, comes to mind.



Most pros ultimately don't make a living from it because of the level of their work. They make a living from it because they have high level marketing, social, and business skills, even if their work is fairly pedestrian.

Sure, there are the world famous "rock stars" that do work with exceptional quality, but most pros aren't those type of shooters.

Most pros aren't even commercial photographers that do well because they can listen to their customers and give them the images their customer wants instead of the (more creative and more artistically pleasing) images the shooter would like to make.

They're wedding and portrait photographers who know how to find customers and make the customer feel like they are getting something of value. I can't tell you how many relatively popular wedding photogs I know whose work isn't really all that great. But their clients eat up all of the social media activity they do about how "wonderful it was to spend time with this awesome couple on their special day documenting their [insert sappy romantic shlock here] for each other."


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I had friends who exclusively bought Snap-On, Mac, etc. If a wrench showed signs of being beaten by a hammer (to free up a nut or bolt) then warranty was denied. Never such a problem with Craftsman's UNCONDITIONAL warranty (at the time, anyway).
> 
> From Snap-on's website: "In addition to any limitations outlined in warranty statements provided with the Product, Snap-on does NOT provide any warranty for (1) products labeled other than Snap-on or Blue-Point or (2) products subjected to "abnormal use". Products that are not labeled Snap-on or Blue-Point are subject to the warranty provided by the manufacturers of those products and Snap-on will pass along any such warranties. "Abnormal use" includes misuse, accident, modification, unreasonable use, abuse, neglect, lack of maintenance, use in product-related service, or use after the product is significantly worn. Abnormal use of tool storage units also includes, without limitation, situations when a unit is pulled using a mechanical vehicle, rolled over large drops, used in a highly corrosive environment, used as a step stool, modified with non-Snap-on parts, overloaded or modified in any way. "
> 
> ...



In my experience, the older Craftsman tools were tougher than the newer ones. Sure, they'll still replace them, but that doesn't do you much good if you're out on a 2 a.m. service call on the side of the highway in the middle of nowhere and you break a wrench you NEED to get that drive shaft out of a Volvo truck tractor (with bolts that haven't been moved since it left the factory when they were torqued at about 500 lb-ft.) so that you can tow it a hundred miles to the Volvo dealer without burning out the transmission or having to pull all of the axle shafts and then spend more time lining them back up when you deliver it than you spent towing it.


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> I find it hard to shoot anything at a lower resolution given the flexibility available at high resolution. I shoot sports at 50mp RAW because I would rather manage the RAW buffer then deal with anything less.
> 
> That said: there are mraw and sraw modes on the 5Ds, along with a large number of JPEG resolutions. I see no reason why the high resolution R won't have these as well. The 'Rs' won't be a niche camera due to resolution, but due to price. I imagine most people would rather pay less for less megapixels and maybe a small bump in fps or better video features.
> 
> Canon always had far more aggressive pricing on the 5Ds/sR models in Asia and almost from their release date they could be found for $2k gray market. Maybe we'll get lucky and the same will be true for the Rs.



None of the newer EOS models with .cr3 raw output include options for M-RAW or S-RAW. Only for full resolution uncompressed (RAW) or slightly compressed (C-RAW) files.


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I had friends who exclusively bought Snap-On, Mac, etc. If a wrench showed signs of being beaten by a hammer (to free up a nut or bolt) then warranty was denied. Never such a problem with Craftsman's UNCONDITIONAL warranty (at the time, anyway).
> 
> From Snap-on's website: "In addition to any limitations outlined in warranty statements provided with the Product, Snap-on does NOT provide any warranty for (1) products labeled other than Snap-on or Blue-Point or (2) products subjected to "abnormal use". Products that are not labeled Snap-on or Blue-Point are subject to the warranty provided by the manufacturers of those products and Snap-on will pass along any such warranties. "Abnormal use" includes misuse, accident, modification, unreasonable use, abuse, neglect, lack of maintenance, use in product-related service, or use after the product is significantly worn. Abnormal use of tool storage units also includes, without limitation, situations when a unit is pulled using a mechanical vehicle, rolled over large drops, used in a highly corrosive environment, used as a step stool, modified with non-Snap-on parts, overloaded or modified in any way. "
> 
> ...



Both the Rebels and the 1-Series have one year warranties. But it's fairly well known that Canon sometimes does out of warranty repairs to 1-Series cameras at no charge if it is likely the issue was caused by a manufacturing defect. I've known more than one 1-Series shooter who got a shutter replacement at no charge when their shutter failed at well less than the Canon published "shutter rating" even though their cameras were well out of the one year warranty period.


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Aaron Lozano said:


> I cannot say I don't understand you. I still use a 5DIII, the files are quick to load + process. But I feelI could have cleaner images in Low ISO and a better AF in low light while also adding a higher resolution.
> 
> Let's say I have an 83MP sensor, why should all the pics be 83MP? that's why Canon created MRAW and SRAW. If you can get MRAW at 41MP and SRAW at 20.5 with a cleaner ISO and higher fps...Why would you complain about having that flexibility?



Have you used any of the newer bodies with .cr3 raw output? There are no M-RAW or S-RAW options with those cameras. Canon may or may not include such options in an 80+ MP R body, but I wouldn't bet on it at this point.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 17, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Who's got 7 minutes to watch a video? how about summarizing their main point?


I had 7 minutes. You spent more than that answering posts today.  I'm fixin' to spend the next two hours of my life watching my Los Angeles Rams lose again.


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

canonmike said:


> Given the large decline in camera sales this yr, across all brands, including both DSLRs and Mirrorless total unit sales, it's somewhat surprising that Canon, Nikon, etc., continue to crank out all these new products. I, for one, am especially grateful that Canon continues to develop and market all these new RF lenses, as we also eagerly wait for the next gen R bodies to come to market, enhancing our ability to take full advantage of the aforementioned. Shortly, the big box camera stores will parade their Black Fri sales and inundate our email boxes with their promos. Should be some great sales going on shortly, especially on the DLSR bodies. Last yr, I picked up a 6d Mark ii body, a free Canon grip and accident and spills warranty for what I considered a bargain price of only $1099.00. Who knows what we'll see with this yr's sale promos across both DSLR and Mirrorless lines. Can't wait for those bargains, as we've already seen price drops prior to Black Fri sales. Just hope I've saved up enough money to take advantage of them.



Canon did the same promo again in June of this year (free grip plus 13 month CarePak) for both the 6D Mark II and the 5D Mark IV. I picked up a 5D Mark IV for only $2,599. The price has since dropped to $2,499, but there's currently no free grip or 13 months of CarPak included. I think the 6D Mark II deal in June was for $1,199.


----------



## Kit. (Nov 17, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Who's got 7 minutes to watch a video?


Could be the same people who mention .cr3 raw and M-RAW or S-RAW in every other post?


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Cryve said:


> The camera has a feature where when you press the af-on button, when reviewing pictures, it zoomes in very close and exactly there, where the camera focused.
> when i take pictures in generall, but also on a tripod, then the area a few centimeters behind the position i wanted to focus on is clearly sharper then what i (and the camera) focused on.
> 
> its consistent across all images, but its a very small backfocus. My dealership clearly saw the error when i showed them and could also replikate it themselves, but the sony repair center here in germany can currently not reprocude it and i dont know why. its super obvious to me, and all my friends can see it. dunno why the sony center cant see it.
> ...



What kind of target are you focusing on? The AF target should be flat and exactly parallel to the camera's sensor. If you're trying to AF on a tilted target, it's probably just a case of the area of sensitivity being larger than the size of the AF "point" displayed on your screen.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Nov 17, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> What kind of target are you focusing on? The AF target should be flat and exactly parallel to the camera's sensor. If you're trying to AF on a tilted target, it's probably just a case of the area of sensitivity being larger than the size of the AF "point" displayed on your screen.


Hmm, parallel?? 

Jack


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I had 7 minutes. You spent more than that answering posts today.  I'm fixin' to spend the next two hours of my life watching my Los Angeles Rams lose again.



Hey, I've got ten fingers for typing but only two eyes for watching YouTube videos for a reason!


----------



## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2019)

Jack Douglas said:


> Hmm, parallel??
> 
> Jack



Yep. Lined up so that the optical axis of the lens is perpendicular to both the sensor and the AF target. That makes the flat target and the sensor parallel to one another. Any other way and you can't be sure the camera is trying to AF at the distance you think you are telling it to.

Those little squares/rectangles in the viewfinder are nowhere near the total area of sensitivity for each AF "point". The camera will focus on the highest area of contrast within the entire area of sensitivity.


----------



## Travel_Photographer (Nov 17, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Points are also partially based on the age of a model (when it was introduced and when it was replaced).
> 
> The 5D Mark II (as of 11/17/2019) no longer earns any points and is no longer qualified for CPS repairs in the U.S. It once was worth at least 5 points. The 5D Mark III was introduced in 2012 and replaced in 2016 (three years ago), the R is a current camera that was only introduced in 2018.
> 
> ...



Here's what's even more interesting. I just went on to see if I could earn the one lonely point for the 5D Mark II that it had previously said it would earn... upon sign-up it said it would give me 6 points, and it did. I added my 400mm F5.6L (for 8 points) and those two products alone were good enough for the lowest-tier free CPS membership (which just gets you expedited repair service, but hey, it's free).


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 17, 2019)

Next from Canon? Holiday rebates.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 17, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Next from Canon? Holiday rebates.


It would be nice to see the RF 50mm f/1.2L get a cut... but I doubt any of those top tier lenses will get anything at all. Maybe next year? Praying for an RF 135mm f/1.8L next year. f/2 would be fine though. I'd happily pay $4k for an RF 80-135 f/2L zoom. Just don't tell Canon


----------



## Aaron Lozano (Nov 17, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Have you used any of the newer bodies with .cr3 raw output? There are no M-RAW or S-RAW options with those cameras. Canon may or may not include such options in an 80+ MP R body, but I wouldn't bet on it at this point.


No, I have not. I have a 5D3 and I use MRAW often.


----------



## slclick (Nov 17, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I had 7 minutes. You spent more than that answering posts today.  I'm fixin' to spend the next two hours of my life watching my Los Angeles Rams lose again.


No kidding, I think it's high time he does some descaling on that espresso machine.


----------



## unfocused (Nov 17, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Next from Canon? Holiday rebates.


I trust Gordon to have a pretty good handle on what is likely to come: https://www.cpricewatch.com/blog/20...riday-deals-start-a-guide-to-the-deal-season/


----------



## unfocused (Nov 17, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> How did you infer that number?


The human mind is a brilliant invention, but it doesn't allow us to see into anyone else's mind. As human beings we are prisoners of our own minds. Unfortunately we are also wired to infer many things and take actions based on those assumptions. It has worked very well in terms of survival skills (We see a mountain lion crouching down and swishing it's tail and we can infer from that that we might want to take defensive action.) But, this same skill set works very poorly in interpersonal relationships. It is impossible to "observe behavior" and then "infer motivation" with any accuracy. I estimated a 90% fail rate, but I would not be surprised if it is actually much higher than that.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 17, 2019)

unfocused said:


> The human mind is a brilliant invention, but it doesn't allow us to see into anyone else's mind. As human beings we are prisoners of our own minds. Unfortunately we are also wired to infer many things and take actions based on those assumptions. It has worked very well in terms of survival skills (We see a mountain lion crouching down and swishing it's tail and we can infer from that that we might want to take defensive action.) But, this same skill set works very poorly in interpersonal relationships. It is impossible to "observe behavior" and then "infer motivation" with any accuracy. I estimated a 90% fail rate, but I would not be surprised if it is actually much higher than that.


It's even worse on social media where body language and voice inflection are impossible to interpret. So, social media can be the most anti-social interaction there is. People write, but intent is almost impossible to interpret.


----------



## SecureGSM (Nov 17, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Have you not noticed that the newer EOS cameras with .cr3 raw files do not include the M-RAW and S-RAW options?


I have not. I shoot with 5D IV. Have not been looking into what was available with Rebels and R yet. I was sceptical about a lossless “compact RAW file“ option but have no Enough data to form a view.


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 17, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> It would be nice to see the RF 50mm f/1.2L get a cut... but I doubt any of those top tier lenses will get anything at all. Maybe next year? Praying for an RF 135mm f/1.8L next year. f/2 would be fine though. I'd happily pay $4k for an RF 80-135 f/2L zoom. Just don't tell Canon


I thought it already had a price cut of $200? Maybe I'm just gullible.


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 17, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Who's got 7 minutes to watch a video? how about summarizing their main point?


Pretty much any man who brings his tablet into the, ahem, "library" has way more than seven minutes to watch a video. Sometimes as much as 20 minutes here... 

(Please note this post is in no way a comment on where this thread has come to!)


----------



## unfocused (Nov 17, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> I have not. I shout with 5D IV. Have not been looking into what was available with Rebels and R yet. I was sceptical about a lossless a “compact RAW file“ option but have no Enough data to form a view.


Here is an explanation of the new C-RAW format from Brian at The Digital Picture. It apparently replaces the M-RAW and S-RAW formats. https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Canon-Cameras/Canon-C-RAW-Image-File-Format.aspx

And here is another explanation from Digital Photography Review: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0483301097/quick-look-canons-new-compressed-raw-format


----------



## SecureGSM (Nov 18, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Here is an explanation of the new C-RAW format from Brian at The Digital Picture. It apparently replaces the M-RAW and S-RAW formats. https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Canon-Cameras/Canon-C-RAW-Image-File-Format.aspx
> 
> And here is another explanation from Digital Photography Review: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0483301097/quick-look-canons-new-compressed-raw-format





SecureGSM said:


> I have not. I shout with 5D IV. Have not been looking into what was available with Rebels and R yet. I was sceptical about a lossless a “compact RAW file“ option but have no Enough data to form a view.



Thank you. A 40% file size reduction for what seems to be a 98% of quality vs traditional RAW. Fair enough. However 100Mb less 40% equals 60Mb which is still quite a large file. I would rather files around 40Mb or 50Mb if I had to.


----------



## tpatana (Nov 18, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Thank you. A 40% file size reduction for what seems to be a 98% of quality vs traditional RAW. Fair enough. However 100Mb less 40% equals 60Mb which is still quite a large file. I would rather files around 40Mb or 50Mb if I had to.



40% would be awesome. Buying 40% less new hard drives would be nice.


----------



## SecureGSM (Nov 18, 2019)

tpatana said:


> 40% would be awesome. Buying 40% less new hard drives would be nice.


That 40% Less is still a twice more vs 5D IV files.  Twice longer rendering time, etc.


----------



## 7enderbender (Nov 18, 2019)

Somebody forwarded me some chatter today that Canon is considering replacing the regular EOS bodies with the R mount system. This would now be the second time that Canon screws me over with a new mount.
If true I'd like to sell my gear and save up for a Leica. What would my stuff approximately still be worth at this point?

Canon 5D Mark II with grip
50L
24-105 4L
135L
200 2.8L
bunch of 430EXII and 5series flashes


----------



## privatebydesign (Nov 18, 2019)

7enderbender said:


> Somebody forwarded me some chatter today that Canon is considering replacing the regular EOS bodies with the R mount system. This would now be the second time that Canon screws me over with a new mount.
> If true I'd like to sell my gear and save up for a Leica. What would my stuff approximately still be worth at this point?
> 
> Canon 5D Mark II with grip $425
> ...



If they are all good condition, less postage and selling fees which work out around 16%.


----------



## unfocused (Nov 18, 2019)

7enderbender said:


> Somebody forwarded me some chatter today that Canon is considering replacing the regular EOS bodies with the R mount system. This would now be the second time that Canon screws me over with a new mount.
> If true I'd like to sell my gear and save up for a Leica. What would my stuff approximately still be worth at this point?
> 
> Canon 5D Mark II with grip
> ...


You're selling your equipment on the basis of some random email?


----------



## geffy (Nov 18, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> It can also be a lens issue, specifically if the AF motor doesn't move exactly the amount the camera tells it to, particularly in high speed shooting modes when the camera might not do a "confirmation" AF reading after the lens has moved. It can also be a loose lens/camera interface that allows the lens to move slightly in relation to the sensor after AF has been locked.


i think you have to call these something different, out of focus is a different issue, a lens is designed to focus at a set back distance for its type, a broken or mis-performing lens is not this issue this issue is about the mirror whether other problems can be solved by the same solution does not make them the same problem as it may not appear on two different cameras where as a lens fault would and it would not affect resale as its a natural phenomenon of SLR cameras


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 18, 2019)

7enderbender said:


> Somebody forwarded me some chatter today that Canon is considering replacing the regular EOS bodies with the R mount system. This would now be the second time that Canon screws me over with a new mount.
> If true I'd like to sell my gear and save up for a Leica...



Leica has long been out there tempting photographers...But what exactly about the Rf mount system would prompt you to sell your lenses? You could keep using the 5D II until it just doesn't work anymore. When it's time to replace it, even if there isn't another Ef mount body on the planet that would suit you, say, oh, maybe in the year 2035 or so, you could still use your current EF lenses with an adapter on the Rf mount. By which time you might have been tempted by some of the amazing Rf glass.

Now this is crazy talk, but a bartender I know has told me that none of this matters. She says civilization can only last another 12 years. I'll be taking my family to a cave I know high in the mountains in the temperate zone, bringing a portable solar-panel system, spare SD cards and batteries, and, when night falls, sitting and chimping my photos of the final days.


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## jeffa4444 (Nov 18, 2019)

I have used the 5DS for a number of years now mainly for portraits in the studio with a mixture of strobes, daylight and LEDs. The images are generally well detailed and great for cropping. The down sides are low light noise and file sizes. Going to 80mp is only going to increase file size and I have enough resolution so unless the low light performance vastly improves then I will be slow to change. 
the EOS R is also in my arsenal along with the RF 24-105mm f4L IS USM and the 24-240mm F4.5 - 6.3 IS USM lens. Its a good camera but not a great camera although Im impressed with the RF 24-105mm. The Holy Trinity in RF mount would set me back £ 7,257
then I would need to add the 85mm adding a further £ 2,799 bringing the total to £ 10,056. On top of this the cost of the new R body which knowing Canon will be over £ 3K at launch and its easy to see why for the serious amateur this is a hugely expensive upgrade. For that reason I opted to buy the EF 85mm f1.4L IS USM and carry on using my existing EF holy trinity and for now the 5DS.


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## YuengLinger (Nov 18, 2019)

geffy said:


> i think you have to call these something different, out of focus is a different issue, a lens is designed to focus at a set back distance for its type, a broken or mis-performing lens is not this issue this issue is about the mirror whether other problems can be solved by the same solution does not make them the same problem as it may not appear on two different cameras where as a lens fault would and it would not affect resale as its a natural phenomenon of SLR cameras



adiuy geitta aayiigo scnbw slis sj kjhieab


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## Ozarker (Nov 18, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> I thought it already had a price cut of $200? Maybe I'm just gullible.


You are right! Unfortunately, the next lens I want hasn't been produced yet.


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## criscokkat (Nov 18, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> But the jump from a 30MP 5D Mark IV (or even 24MP 5D Mark III) to an 80+ MP EOS Rs is a LOT bigger than the jump from a 24MP 5D Mark III to a 30 MP 5D Mark IV. Why do you keep conflating people coming from a 30MP 5D Mark IV with people coming from a 50MP 5Ds/5Ds R?


Why do you keep conflating that this is the upgrade for the 5DMIV not the 5DS/R?

This upcoming camera has always been portrayed as the replacement for the high megapixel camera, not the general purpose pro camera. The 5DMV and the equivelant RII will more than likely come outjust before christmas next year, or in spring of 2021. I personally think it does show the interest in the R system (& mirrorless systems as a whole) as people are doing mental gymnastics trying to justify buying this when it comes out early next year instead of simply waiting for the RII, which will most likely be released at the same time and on the same rough release interval as a (possibly final) 5DMV.


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## Punio (Nov 18, 2019)

A lot of thoughts about an EOS R Mark 2. I highly doubt Canon have the EOS R on anything less than a 4 year refresh period. That means 2022. 

What I am also curious about is the naming system. Canon have labelled their bodies quite sensibly in terms of 1 being the top tier, the 5 next and then the 7, and then the bigger the number the further down the range. 

How are they naming the EOS R system? Where does the R fit? We all assume it will be: 

1R
5R and 5RS
R and Ra
RP
Rc (asp-c)

Doesn't seem as intuitive.


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## YuengLinger (Nov 18, 2019)

Punio said:


> A lot of thoughts about an EOS R Mark 2. I highly doubt Canon have the EOS R on anything less than a 4 year refresh period. That means 2022.
> 
> What I am also curious about is the naming system. Canon have labelled their bodies quite sensibly in terms of 1 being the top tier, the 5 next and then the 7, and then the bigger the number the further down the range.
> 
> ...



Naming seems reasonable, but what has that to do with Canon's schedule for releasing a pro type of FF mirrorless? What I'm waiting for is a 5D type body with a much better EVF than the current R. I don't believe Canon has ever marketed the R as a pro style body. It has a better sensor and AF than the 6DII, but otherwise performs more at the 6DII level than a 5DIV.

A high-resolution mirrorless meant more for landscape and product photography would not need an EVF upgrade, though customers might be a little disappointed if it is exactly the same as the current R. And does such a camera need IBIS?

Call me pessimistic, or cyincal, but I think Canon is waiting for a fully working IBIS and an EVF they don't have to license from some other company. (Does anybody know who makes the newest EVF shared by Leica, Sony, and Panasonic?)


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## Punio (Nov 18, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Naming seems reasonable, but what has that to do with Canon's schedule for releasing a pro type of FF mirrorless?



My point I was making was that because of the ambiguity in the EOS R naming, its hard to be definitive about what is coming next from Canon. Is it a 5D equivalent next or was the R actually the 5D equivalent? Canon said the there is still a Pro body to come soon but in their interview with ImageResource they referred to the 1D as their understanding of Pro body.

If the EOS R was called the 5R we could have a 'better' guess at the schedule.


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## criscokkat (Nov 18, 2019)

Punio said:


> A lot of thoughts about an EOS R Mark 2. I highly doubt Canon have the EOS R on anything less than a 4 year refresh period. That means 2022.
> 
> What I am also curious about is the naming system. Canon have labelled their bodies quite sensibly in terms of 1 being the top tier, the 5 next and then the 7, and then the bigger the number the further down the range.
> 
> ...


I don't think it'll be a full 4 years for the RII. I think it will the end of next year/early 2021 at the latest. I think the *original *long term plan was for the R to come out in 2020 as the mirrorless version of the 5dmV. The RF lenses and cameras were obviously under development for years, I think Sony forced their hand in pushing the boundaries of mirrorless tech and they needed to release something sooner, hence the R with a recycled sensor. I see no reason why we won't see one last release of the 5d series accompanied by an RII that comes along with that. The M6II has shown that the sensor itself was what was holding the speed back. I can't imagine they'd wait an extra 2 years just because the R is only 2 years old. It'll probably then be back to the 'regular schedule' with the next round coming 4 years after that most likely.


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## YuengLinger (Nov 18, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> I don't think it'll be a full 4 years for the RII. I think it will the end of next year/early 2021 at the latest. I think the *original *long term plan was for the R to come out in 2020 as the mirrorless version of the 5dmV. The RF lenses and cameras were obviously under development for years, I think Sony forced their hand in pushing the boundaries of mirrorless tech and they needed to release something sooner, hence the R with a recycled sensor. I see no reason why we won't see one last release of the 5d series accompanied by an RII that comes along with that. The M6II has shown that the sensor itself was what was holding the speed back. I can't imagine they'd wait an extra 2 years just because the R is only 2 years old. It'll probably then be back to the 'regular schedule' with the next round coming 4 years after that most likely.


I agree with much of what you are saying, but in this case, names do mean something. Clearly the R is not a mirrorless version of the 5D series, so an RII couldn't be either. It just wouldn't make sense to have the same series, in one generation, gain an extra card-slot, better weather sealing, and a higher burst rate--in addition to a top-notch, action-oriented EVF. Such a camera must have a new name.

I don't expect an EOS 5R (or whatever) until 2021, because Canon is reportedly going to release another 5D and 1D body, plus the high-res R. Just seems not enough oxygen in one year for much more than that in FF, and, as mentioned above, I don't think Canon has the goods yet when it comes to the EVF or the IBIS. 

As for an RII, which would be an upgrade to the EOS R, the full four years seems pretty likely.


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## Joules (Nov 18, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> It just wouldn't make sense to have the same series, in one generation, gain an extra card-slot, better weather sealing, and a higher burst rate--in addition to a top-notch, action-oriented EVF. Such a camera must have a new name.


I don’t know...

The 90D got a Joystick, improved wheather sealing, an upgrade in FPS AND shutter life time, Spot AF and so on. It gobbled up a good number of features from the 7D series and presumably even killed it, yet the name stayed the same.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the R and RP just suffer from the terrible naming schemes the M series had initially. Not that it is great now, but M100, M50, M6, M5 make at least follow the 'lower is better' scheme, in contrast to the M, M2, M3 stuff. I at least hope they'll go to numbers at some point, making a spiritual successor to the R rather than a literal R II.


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## unfocused (Nov 18, 2019)

People need to wrap their heads around the idea that Canon's mirrorless system does not have to follow the DSLR market segmentation. In fact they haven't so far, so why would future releases?

Canon currently has seven full frame cameras introduced at seven different price points and with seven different feature sets. (1D, 5D, 5Dr, Ra, R, 6D and RP). There are two additional mirrorless models rumored: A high resolution model and an action-oriented model. I don't expect that either of these two will exactly mirror the available DSLRs, although the high resolution model may be the only true "replacement" for a DSLR on the list. 

Canon has said they intend to offer models both above and below the current mirrorless offerings, although it is hard to imagine a mirrorless model below the RP, but who knows? 

It is possible that a second generation R may arrive sooner than the usual refresh rate, in part because the line is new so it would't be surprising to see Canon update models more quickly for the first generation or two. It's also possible that Canon leaves the R in the lineup and offers an upgraded version with two card slots and some other improvements. A big unknown is whether or not Canon views the single card slot as a hindrance to sales. Just because people on the internet endlessly obsess over single card slots doesn't mean buyers care that much. 

In short, people need to quit worrying about 5D and 1D equivalency when they discuss the R series, as I doubt Canon will ever make mirrorless bodies that are true equivalents to their DSLRs.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 18, 2019)

Travel_Photographer said:


> Here's what's even more interesting. I just went on to see if I could earn the one lonely point for the 5D Mark II that it had previously said it would earn... upon sign-up it said it would give me 6 points, and it did. I added my 400mm F5.6L (for 8 points) and those two products alone were good enough for the lowest-tier free CPS membership (which just gets you expedited repair service, but hey, it's free).
> 
> View attachment 187557



What country are you in? 

On the "My Products" list I'm also still getting 6 points. I assumed it was because that's what the value was when I originally registered it back in 2011.


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## mb66energy (Nov 18, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> You'd still need to debeyer. The colors of the filters in the Bayer mask are far from the colors we use in our RGB reproduction systems. Particularly in the "red" channel, most Bayer masks are centered on about 590nm (which is a slightly orange version of yellow) rather than 640nm, which is what we use for "Red" in RGB additive (screens that emit light) trichromatic color reproduction systems. The "blue" filters in a Bayer mask are usually centered around 455nm, instead of 480nm "Blue", and the "green" filters are centered at around 540nm, rather than 525nm "Green".
> 
> View attachment 187553



Maybe I haven't understood debayering correctly: For me it was giving e.g. 10 Megapixel (2.5 Red, 5 Green, 2.5 Blue, millions) sensor the 10 full color Megapixels in the image by extrapolating the color signal of all pixels to their neigbours to give them some cull color information.
Some color adjustment is surely necessary, but I think this is much easier than calculating full color image pixels from single color detector pixels.


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## mb66energy (Nov 18, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> The problem with making a 100mm f/2 macro is that it's really difficult (and expensive, and heavy) to do flat field correction required for macro lenses out past an around f/2.8 sized entrance pupil. The EF 100mm f/2 leaves a lot of field curvature uncorrected (which is often desirable in a portrait lens, as it gives smoother out of focus areas), but field curvature is a death sentence for a macro lens (which doesn't worry about out of focus areas as much since it's specifically designed to image flat 2D objects at close distances).


If I look at the Zeiss planar which has a very good reputation, it has macro at f/2 so this is possible. The EF f/2 100mm is an "old" lens introduced 10/1991. If I look at the design of the EF-M 32 there should be some progress in (1) new glass types, (2) new aspherical lens possibilities, (3) new methods of optics calculation. You are right, it is not easy, but I think it would be possible @ 1200-1400 EUR on RF mount - maybe to much for some hypotheticel target group.


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## Travel_Photographer (Nov 18, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> What country are you in?
> 
> On the "My Products" list I'm also still getting 6 points. I assumed it was because that's what the value was when I originally registered it back in 2011.



I'm in the U.S.A. and using the Canon USA site.

The points values don't make a lot of sense. There must be some other method they're using to calculate points. For example, I got a full 8 points for my old Canon EF-S 10-22mm that I bought with my Rebel XTi! Yet as you correctly stated, neither my 16-35L or 24-70L (both original versions) qualified for a single point. I also got 8 points for my original 70-200 F4L IS, but the F2.8 version doesn't get a single point. I have no idea what methods they're using to assign points.


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## Kit. (Nov 18, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> I agree with much of what you are saying, but in this case, names do mean something. Clearly the R is not a mirrorless version of the 5D series, so an RII couldn't be either. It just wouldn't make sense to have the same series, in one generation, gain an extra card-slot, better weather sealing, and a higher burst rate--in addition to a top-notch, action-oriented EVF. Such a camera must have a new name.


Dunno what you are talking about. My 5D2 has a single card slot and less than 4fps burst rate.


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## SecureGSM (Nov 18, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Dunno what you are talking about. My 5D2 has a single card slot and less than 4fps burst rate.


You cannot be serious.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 19, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Pretty much any man who brings his tablet into the, ahem, "library" has way more than seven minutes to watch a video. Sometimes as much as 20 minutes here...
> 
> (Please note this post is in no way a comment on where this thread has come to!)



I'm a quick worker in the, ahem, library and rarely spend more than 5 minutes there.
Beyond that, I can read the text transcript of most videos in about 1/3 the time it takes to watch a video. Why waste time when I can be learning three times as much in the same number of minutes?


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## Michael Clark (Nov 19, 2019)

slclick said:


> No kidding, I think it's high time he does some descaling on that espresso machine.



I don't do caffine. The reason should be obvious.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 19, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> That 40% Less is still a twice more vs 5D IV files.  Twice longer rendering time, etc.



Rendering time is usually based on the *uncompressed* size of an image. Most image editors/viewers work with the raster image with full values for each pixel.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 19, 2019)

7enderbender said:


> Somebody forwarded me some chatter today that Canon is considering replacing the regular EOS bodies with the R mount system. This would now be the second time that Canon screws me over with a new mount.
> If true I'd like to sell my gear and save up for a Leica. What would my stuff approximately still be worth at this point?
> 
> Canon 5D Mark II with grip
> ...



The R mount is also part of the EOS system.

The flashes will work seamlessly.

Beyond that, Canon appears to plan on selling both R mount and EF/EF-S mount lenses and cameras, along with EF-M mount lenses, for the foreseeable future.
Using an EF to R adapter is about as painless as it gets. There are no degrading optics involved. Both systems are based on the same core protocol. With all electronic connections between the lens and camera body for every EOS lens and body ever made, there are no real mechanical issues to overcome. The adapters are simply a spacer that passes through the camera/lens communications while adding an extra control ring that can be programmed to do pretty much whatever you want it to do.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 19, 2019)

geffy said:


> i think you have to call these something different, out of focus is a different issue, a lens is designed to focus at a set back distance for its type, a broken or mis-performing lens is not this issue this issue is about the mirror whether other problems can be solved by the same solution does not make them the same problem as it may not appear on two different cameras where as a lens fault would and it would not affect resale as its a natural phenomenon of SLR cameras



AFMA can be used to correct for "all of the above."


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## Michael Clark (Nov 19, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> Why do you keep conflating that this is the upgrade for the 5DMIV not the 5DS/R?
> 
> This upcoming camera has always been portrayed as the replacement for the high megapixel camera, not the general purpose pro camera. The 5DMV and the equivelant RII will more than likely come outjust before christmas next year, or in spring of 2021. I personally think it does show the interest in the R system (& mirrorless systems as a whole) as people are doing mental gymnastics trying to justify buying this when it comes out early next year instead of simply waiting for the RII, which will most likely be released at the same time and on the same rough release interval as a (possibly final) 5DMV.



No one is conflating any such thing. In the previous discussion the possibility was raised that the upcoming 80+ MP R body would be a mirrorless equivalent for _both_ the 5Ds and the 5D Mark IV with no plans by Canon to release another 35-40MP R body for those wishing to move from the 5D mark IV to the R mount. Kind of like the 1D X replaced both the high speed APS-H 1D Mark IV and the slower FF higher resolution 1Ds Mark III. That's the context of the previous comments you're responding to.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 19, 2019)

mb66energy said:


> Maybe I haven't understood debayering correctly: For me it was giving e.g. 10 Megapixel (2.5 Red, 5 Green, 2.5 Blue, millions) sensor the 10 full color Megapixels in the image by extrapolating the color signal of all pixels to their neigbours to give them some cull color information.
> Some color adjustment is surely necessary, but I think this is much easier than calculating full color image pixels from single color detector pixels.



All "pixels" in a raw image file are single linear monochromatic luminance values. There's no more color information there than if you put a red, green, or blue filter in front of a frame of B&W film.

It changes the relative tonal values of different wavelengths and combinations of wavelengths of light, but you can't derive color information from them until you _compare_ the results from using multiple filters of different colors. (By the way, that's also how our trichromatic human vision systems work to create color in our perception of visible light. There's nothing intrinsic about the color of a particular wavelength of light, there's only the perception of color by the brain interpreting the signals from our trichromatic retinas with three different types of cones. Other species may have visual response to wavelengths humans can't see, or may not have visual response to wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation that humans can see.)

Just as with a red filter in front of B&W film, more than _only_ red light (that is actually yellow-orange centered on about 590nm) passes through the "red" filter on a Bayer mask in front of a digital sensor. It's just that the further from 590nm the light gets, the more it is reduced by the filter. There's a lot of overlap of what wavelengths of light get through each of the three filter colors in a Bayer array. Some short wavelength "blue" light gets through the long wavelength "red" filter. A LOT of "green" light makes it through the "blue" and "red" filters, a LOT of "red" light makes it past the "green" filters , and there is a second shelf of more than minimal response to short wavelength "blue" light that makes it past the "red" filter. And as we have pointed out earlier, the three colors of the Bayer filter array in the vast majority of digital cameras are in no way equivalent to the "RED", "GREEN", and "BLUE" we use in our RGB color reproduction systems. Then there's the whole issue of human response to different types of lighting "normalizing" the colors we perceive of certain things.


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## SecureGSM (Nov 19, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Rendering time is usually based on the *uncompressed* size of an image. Most image editors/viewers work with the raster image with full values for each pixel.


True. My bad. 40% of the file size reduction will unlikely reduce post production efforts.
I may consider a hi res camera as a second body though. This may turn out to be a reasonable arrangement.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 19, 2019)

mb66energy said:


> If I look at the Zeiss planar which has a very good reputation, it has macro at f/2 so this is possible. The EF f/2 100mm is an "old" lens introduced 10/1991. If I look at the design of the EF-M 32 there should be some progress in (1) new glass types, (2) new aspherical lens possibilities, (3) new methods of optics calculation. You are right, it is not easy, but I think it would be possible @ 1200-1400 EUR on RF mount - maybe to much for some hypotheticel target group.



How much does the EF 100mm f/2 cost? How much does the Zeiss Planar 110mm f/2 cost? How long has that design been around, by the way? (Hint: it's been around a lot longer than 1991.)

But beyond that, the Zeiss Planar series is not nearly as well corrected for field curvature as the Batis and Otis series are. The Planar was a well corrected lens in 1896 when it was introduced. It's a slight variation of a standard double Gauss design, same as the EF 50mm f/1.8, EF 50mm f/1.2 L, EF 85mm f/1.2 L / II and a ton of other prime lenses in the 35-85mm range (for 135 format cameras). The Zeiss 110/2 is a medium format lens with a field of view about the same as 50mm cropped to a square in the 135 format.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 19, 2019)

Travel_Photographer said:


> I'm in the U.S.A. and using the Canon USA site.
> 
> The points values don't make a lot of sense. There must be some other method they're using to calculate points. For example, I got a full 8 points for my old Canon EF-S 10-22mm that I bought with my Rebel XTi! Yet as you correctly stated, neither my 16-35L or 24-70L (both original versions) qualified for a single point. I also got 8 points for my original 70-200 F4L IS, but the F2.8 version doesn't get a single point. I have no idea what methods they're using to assign points.



The lenses that you're not getting any points for have all been discontinued and usually replaced by newer versions. The older lenses that you are still getting points for are still in the current catalog and have never been updated (other than the EF 70-200mm f/4 L IS that was only replaced by the EF 70-200mm f/4 L IS II a year ago, so the meter is ticking on that one now.)


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## Cryve (Nov 19, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> What kind of target are you focusing on? The AF target should be flat and exactly parallel to the camera's sensor. If you're trying to AF on a tilted target, it's probably just a case of the area of sensitivity being larger than the size of the AF "point" displayed on your screen.



Pretty much anything i focus on has this backfocus. For my tests on a tripod i focused on Things that had other objekts behind them, so i could see if the object behind was actually sharper than what i had focused on.

So i focused on leafes in trees (and the leafes behind the leaf i focused on were sharper)
Or on leafes laying in the grass (and the grass behind was sharper)

or on packing with text on it that i brought with me, and the grass or whatever behind it was sharper.

Here some Pictures, you can check them out for yourselfes: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jeuy_KH-nR2vXjRAxulw0JquY8lajWII


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## AaronT (Nov 19, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> "
> I'm not picking an argument with you, just making a statement. There is nothing wrong with overkill, might not be for everyone but if you only want 1 camera to do it all then a high MP camera can."
> 
> So how about shooting 10+ fps for sports/action/wildlife in motion?
> ...


Okay Michael, I'm big enough to admit you got me on that one. Let me rephrase. 
"There is nothing wrong with overkill, might not be for everyone but if you only want 1 camera to do it all then a high MP camera can. Except for shooting 10+ fps for sports/action/wildlife in motion."  Then again, a Sony a7R IV hits 10 fps with 61 MP but I would never get one because of its sensor dust problems and ergonomics. Canon has me spoiled in that regard.


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## YuengLinger (Nov 19, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Dunno what you are talking about. My 5D2 has a single card slot and less than 4fps burst rate.


Okay. I should have consulted an archaeologist. But I do not believe Canon rates the current R as a pro body, so I don't think the RII will be either. A new name will be given to a pro FF mirrorless.


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## Kit. (Nov 19, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Okay. I should have consulted an archaeologist.


Canon still supports it, or at least did it this August.


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## Memdroid (Nov 19, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> I do not believe Canon rates the current R as a pro body.



They do here in Canon Netherlands, according to my CPS account.


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## Punio (Nov 19, 2019)

Memdroid said:


> They do here in Canon Netherlands, according to my CPS account.



Canon Execs in an interview specifically state they are yet to release a mirrorless Pro.


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## mb66energy (Nov 19, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> How much does the EF 100mm f/2 cost? How much does the Zeiss Planar 110mm f/2 cost? How long has that design been around, by the way? (Hint: it's been around a lot longer than 1991.)
> 
> But beyond that, the Zeiss Planar series is not nearly as well corrected for field curvature as the Batis and Otis series are. The Planar was a well corrected lens in 1896 when it was introduced. It's a slight variation of a standard double Gauss design, same as the EF 50mm f/1.8, EF 50mm f/1.2 L, EF 85mm f/1.2 L / II and a ton of other prime lenses in the 35-85mm range (for 135 format cameras). The Zeiss 110/2 is a medium format lens with a field of view about the same as 50mm cropped to a square in the 135 format.


Sorry, I was not clear about f/2 planar, I meant this one (EDIT: english version of lens description for convenience :




__





ZEISS Consumer Products


ZEISS Consumer Products combines the company's business with camera and cine lenses, binoculars, spotting scopes and hunting optics.




www.zeiss.com




which is a evolutionary developed Planar type lens and which is macro - the medium format f/2 110mm lens is no macro with 1:5 max. reproduction ratio.
And TDP comparison shows that the EF 100 L macro is a tad better in the center, but the ZEISS visibly better in the edges while comparing f/2.8 with f/2.0 on the same camera:








Zeiss Milvus 100mm f/2M Lens Image Quality


View the image quality delivered by the Zeiss 100mm f/2M Milvus Lens using ISO 12233 Resolution Chart lab test results. Compare the image quality of this lens with other lenses.




www.the-digital-picture.com


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## mb66energy (Nov 19, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> All "pixels" in a raw image file are single linear monochromatic luminance values. There's no more color information there than if you put a red, green, or blue filter in front of a frame of B&W film.



Raw files do code color information because the positions of the pixels are coded in the raw files and connected to r, g and b filter"lets". Shurely you need the information about which pixel/ADC value is filtered by which color (red, green blue) to reconstruct color information and therefore you need some piece of software. So the Bayer pattern is some approach to have alle three color filters at the same time but not at the same pixels to make "one shot color photography" possible.

That these filters have a broader transmission spectrum is critical to produce an image of a yellow Natrium emission line which has to excite the red and green filtered photosites. But this has IMO nothing to do with Bayer patterns or X-Trans patterns and applies to Foveon sensors too.


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## YuengLinger (Nov 19, 2019)

Memdroid said:


> They do here in Canon Netherlands, according to my CPS account.


If you can figure out the CPS point system, you are a true genius!

The R is amazing as a portrait body, and a wonderful complement to a pro body when shooting events. I don't think the EVF performance of the R would put it at the top of the list of most pros as their primary body for sports, dance, or any event that involves more than slow, predictable motion. Two card slots would offer peace of mind; better weather sealing would too; and a higher burst rate is, in 2020, a must. IBIS would be great, but as few pro bodies have it yet, I wouldn't include that in the expected features of a body that paid photographers rely upon to keep customers happy while consistently performing at near the top of what the industry offers.

But, in fact, a pro could take a photo with a smartphone. So, smartphones are pro cameras, if that is your standard.


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## YuengLinger (Nov 19, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> I'm a quick worker in the, ahem, library and rarely spend more than 5 minutes there.
> Beyond that, I can read the text transcript of most videos in about 1/3 the time it takes to watch a video. Why waste time when I can be learning three times as much in the same number of minutes?



I rarely spent more than five minute in there before I had kids. Now the "library" is a retreat. Turn on the exhaust fan, and it's like a white-noise sanctuary for as long as I can get away with it.


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## jtf (Nov 20, 2019)

Quick note regarding the professional status of the EOS R. Obviously everyone on this site is a Canon user and is more than likely familiar with the Canon Explorers of Light crew. I noticed Rick Sammon is pictured holding the R in the ad for his Rainforest Photography class in Costa Rica. Likewise on twitter, Rick tweeted a photo of the gear he's taking for an assignment in December to Antarctica. He noted he's going totally ML with 2 R bodies and an M5. 

Personally, I could care less if it's labeled pro or not. I'm getting older and arthritis is kicking my butt, I've switched to the R and M5 because they're light, I like the evf, and the IQ is excellent.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 20, 2019)

mb66energy said:


> Sorry, I was not clear about f/2 planar, I meant this one (EDIT: english version of lens description for convenience :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again, how much does it cost? (Hint: about 6-8X what a new EF 100mm f/2 does).


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## Michael Clark (Nov 20, 2019)

mb66energy said:


> Raw files do code color information because the positions of the pixels are coded in the raw files and connected to r, g and b filter"lets". Shurely you need the information about which pixel/ADC value is filtered by which color (red, green blue) to reconstruct color information and therefore you need some piece of software. So the Bayer pattern is some approach to have alle three color filters at the same time but not at the same pixels to make "one shot color photography" possible.
> 
> That these filters have a broader transmission spectrum is critical to produce an image of a yellow Natrium emission line which has to excite the red and green filtered photosites. But this has IMO nothing to do with Bayer patterns or X-Trans patterns and applies to Foveon sensors too.



There are still no direct relationships between the "red", "green", and "blue" filters in a bayer mask (or X-trans mask, or even a Foveon sensor) and the light emitted by "Red", "Green", and "Blue" subpixels in our RGB color systems. They're simply not the same colors, just as they are not the same colors as those used by our CMYK printing systems.

Yes, you need to know which photosites (a "pixel", properly, only exists in a color image that has values for all the colors used by a particular color reproduction system) are filtered by which colors. But the information gathered by each one is no different than the information gathered by a single grain in the emulsion of B&W film: How much light fell on it within the entire range of the electromagnetic spectrum to which it is chemically sensitive.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 20, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> If you can figure out the CPS point system, you are a true genius!
> 
> The R is amazing as a portrait body, and a wonderful complement to a pro body when shooting events. I don't think the EVF performance of the R would put it at the top of the list of most pros as their primary body for sports, dance, or any event that involves more than slow, predictable motion. Two card slots would offer peace of mind; better weather sealing would too; and a higher burst rate is, in 2020, a must. IBIS would be great, but as few pro bodies have it yet, I wouldn't include that in the expected features of a body that paid photographers rely upon to keep customers happy while consistently performing at near the top of what the industry offers.
> 
> But, in fact, a pro could take a photo with a smartphone. So, smartphones are pro cameras, if that is your standard.



Most of what the spec sheet warriors clammer about are things that experienced pros aren't too worried about. They're things that can help less experienced photographers avoid making mistakes they otherwise might make. One only needs a "WYSIWYG" EVF, for instance, if one doesn't understand how to interpret what a light meter (either internal or external) is telling you.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 20, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> I rarely spent more than five minute in there before I had kids. Now the "library" is a retreat. Turn on the exhaust fan, and it's like a white-noise sanctuary for as long as I can get away with it.



Wait until your kids have kids, or even when your kids' kids have kids. Then you'll be at a point in your life when you realize you've wasted more time in the past than you've probably got left to do things worth doing in the future. Why spend 7 minutes waiting for someone to communicate the same content in a video that you could have read in a couple of minutes if they weren't too lazy to put it in text?


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## Michael Clark (Nov 20, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Canon still supports it, or at least did it this August.



Apparently, based on the CPS Repair list, Canon also supports lenses they've never even offered for sale.


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## mb66energy (Nov 20, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> There are still no direct relationships between the "red", "green", and "blue" filters in a bayer mask (or X-trans mask, or even a Foveon sensor) and the light emitted by "Red", "Green", and "Blue" subpixels in our RGB color systems. They're simply not the same colors, just as they are not the same colors as those used by our CMYK printing systems.
> 
> Yes, you need to know which photosites (a "pixel", properly, only exists in a color image that has values for all the colors used by a particular color reproduction system) are filtered by which colors. But the information gathered by each one is no different than the information gathered by a single grain in the emulsion of B&W film: How much light fell on it within the entire range of the electromagnetic spectrum to which it is chemically sensitive.


It took a little bit but now I understand your point:
Yes, that is true: You need the wider filter spectra for the sensor because you cannot detect yellow with monochromatic R, G and B filters on the sensor but you can produce the illusion of yellow with (nearly) monochromatic LEDs using a red and green LED.
The photosites themselves only see photons in a broad "color" (=wavelength) range.
So I fully agree!


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## mb66energy (Nov 20, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Again, how much does it cost? (Hint: about 6-8X what a new EF 100mm f/2 does).


The EF- 2.0 100 is around 500 EUR, the Milvus 2.0 100 is around 1550 EUR.
Factoring in IS and AF + maybe a non-extending design I would expect ~2000 EUR for EF and ~2500 EUR for RF so the lower value of your estimate is close to my expectations.
But a hypothetical RF/EF 2.0 100 L IS Macro combines 2.0 100 non-macro AND 2.8 100 IS macro capabilties so it would replace a 1500 EUR dual lens set. In that case it isn't that much more money, substantially less size, a little bit weight reduction (compared to sum of the masses of both existing lenses) and last but not least: No hassle with changing lenses or decisions which lens to bring with you!

Finally it is a matter of interest in such a lens. While I really like that focal length as "standard" maybe the large majority has wide angles in mind when it comes to a "standard" lens so I am not the customer that counts


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## Memdroid (Nov 20, 2019)

I agree what YuengLinger said that the R is a compliment to the DSLR. But Regarding the R if it is pro body or not, it can holds its own for sure. Other than the smaller body and slight change in ergonomics and shits and giggles features, it is EXACTLY like the 5dIV in liveview mode, which is a pro body as well. People are ignoring this and I believe some folks are misunderstanding "PRO" with "feature rich"...

Sure I would welcome a better body with loads of features. But downplaying the R because it does not have some is really childish to me.
So what is the deal exactly? From my personal experience:
IBIS? I don't really need it, my shots are not suffering from it, even down to 1/15 of a second on static objects, so I am not missing out on anything that I am aware of.
Dual card slots? As a photographer and countless gigs and personal use, I have never ever had a card failure and never shot redundant with any camera. Ever.
Build Quality? Mine drowned in pissing champagne and it is still alive and kicking with no issues. It can take some abuse and it is not so fragile as people (non-users) make it out to be.
FPS? More is always welcome, but as a photographer I learned to pick and time my shots early but it is no deal breaker either, other than the shutter lag, which could have been more responsive.
More MP? Absolutely! But since when is 30MP not enough?
AF? this is on point and very very good. It only sucks on back lit low light situations where it cannot lock on or goes rogue.
Better EVF? I would welcome that to behave more like a OVF but again, it is not holding me back, even at fast paced events.
Joystick? I hated this absence but the touch and drag works far better for me, combined with the improved eye AF and resetting the AF point to the center after each shot, I don't even worry about it anymore. In fact I feel slightly hindered and slowed down when I shoot back with my 1DX and 5D bodies with the joystick! Especially while framing. Crazy right?


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## Michael Clark (Nov 21, 2019)

mb66energy said:


> The EF- 2.0 100 is around 500 EUR, the Milvus 2.0 100 is around 1550 EUR.
> Factoring in IS and AF + maybe a non-extending design I would expect ~2000 EUR for EF and ~2500 EUR for RF so the lower value of your estimate is close to my expectations.
> But a hypothetical RF/EF 2.0 100 L IS Macro combines 2.0 100 non-macro AND 2.8 100 IS macro capabilties so it would replace a 1500 EUR dual lens set. In that case it isn't that much more money, substantially less size, a little bit weight reduction (compared to sum of the masses of both existing lenses) and last but not least: No hassle with changing lenses or decisions which lens to bring with you!
> 
> Finally it is a matter of interest in such a lens. While I really like that focal length as "standard" maybe the large majority has wide angles in mind when it comes to a "standard" lens so I am not the customer that counts



In the U.S. a new EF 100mm f/2 can be found from authorized Canon dealers for around $500 USD and refurbed direct from Canon for about $400. Gray market dealers advertise it for as low as $330. I was under the mistaken impression that the 100/2 was currently discounted similarly to the 85/1.8, which usually retails for $430 in the US and is on a Canon promotion right now at $269.

The Milvus is $1,800+ here.


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## Kit. (Nov 21, 2019)

Memdroid said:


> But Regarding the R if it is pro body or not, it can holds its own for sure. Other than the smaller body and slight change in ergonomics and shits and giggles features, it is EXACTLY like the 5dIV in liveview mode, which is a pro body as well.


I don't think 5D4 would be called a "pro body" if it were only usable in liveview mode.

5D4 viewfinder is vastly superior to R viewfinder for people who actually know how to focus and how to expose, in almost every shooting condition (the only exception I can think of now is extreme darkness).

Having the same top button layout on 5D and 1D series doesn't hurt either.


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## Steven_nl (Nov 21, 2019)

I do agree that a feature rich body is something different then a Pro body. I am a pro shooter I do events and shoot on construction sites quite a lot. 1 cardslot is a dealbraker for me. Not sure if the R is as rugged as the 5DMarkIV. 
I sure hope Canon will announce a Pro mirrorless body soon. It has taken them far to long. 
2 cardslots, joystick, around 40mp, great dynamic range and low light all packed in a solid body. Paired with the RF 24-70 that would be amazing. They have their AF and eye AF sorted out so how hard can it be.


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## barryreid (Nov 21, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> If you are wanting pixel sharp images, surely you are using a tripod? Why not use the magnified AF with Live View?


I do, but find it much harder than using an EVF.


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## Punio (Nov 21, 2019)

Steven_nl said:


> 2 cardslots, joystick, around 40mp, great dynamic range and low light all packed in a solid body. Paired with the RF 24-70 that would be amazing. They have their AF and eye AF sorted out so how hard can it be.



I got the gist that Canon don't believe their sensor tech is up to par with their expectations for a Pro mirrorless. Hence why Canon could not reduce the huge 1.7x crop in 4K on the EOS R. Canon is a hardware company first I guess. I hope they figure it out soon, the specs you mentioned are the least of which are required in the next Canon mirrorless.


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