# Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!



## TonyY (Sep 13, 2012)

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikon-d600

Sensor: 24,3MP CMOS Total: 24.7 million

Image size

FX 36mm x 24mm :
6,016 x 4,016 (L) 4,512 x 3,008 (M) 3,008 x 2,008 (S)

DX 24mm x 16mm
3,936 x 2,624 (L) 2,944 x 1,968 (M) 1,968 x 1,312 (S)

FX-format photographs taken in movie live view :
6,016 x 3,376 (L) 4,512 x 2,528 (M) 3,008 x 1,688 (S)

DX-format photographs in movie live view :
3,936 x 2,224 (L) 2,944 x 1,664 (M) 1,968 x 1,112 (S)

ISO 100 ~ 6,400. ( 50 - 25600)

Finder: 100% coverage.

AF: 39 points.

Shutter: 1/4,000 ~ 30 sec, bulb. Carbon fiber and Kevlar, tested to 150,000 cycles.

2,016-Segment RGB Meter

Flash Sync: 1/200. Built-in Flash

Frame Rate: 5,5 FPS.

Rear LCD: Exquisite 3.2," 921,000 pixels.

Video

The Nikon D600 can capture Full HD (1080p; 1,920 x 1,080 pixel) video at either 24, 25 or 30 frames per. For 720p (1,280 x 720 pixel) video, a rate of 60 frames per second is possible. Video can either be shot using data from pixels across the entire width of the image sensor in FX mode, or with a 1.5x (DX-format) focal length crop, taking data from the center of the imager, without affecting the video resolution.

Videos are recorded using H.264 / MPEG-4 AVC format compression, maximum clip length is 29 minutes, 59. Even more unusually, it's possible to have the live feed piped to the D600's HDMI port as an uncompressed full HD signal, allowing it to be recorded using an external device and/or routed to an external monitor. If desired, this signal can be mirrored on the camera's own LCD display at the same time; the off-camera feed doesn't have any overlays added, so as not to impact external recording devices.

And the time-lapse photography function can be used to automatically photograph relatively slow moving action


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## robbymack (Sep 13, 2012)

So 6d if it exists will come in at 2500


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## EYEONE (Sep 13, 2012)

I'm not really impressed by this camera. Only considering the price. I really thought it would be lower and more of a game changer. If Canon could get the 6D at $1999 it could make some waves.


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## cliffwang (Sep 13, 2012)

- 22MP vs 24MP
- 19 AF vs 39 AF
- 4.9 FPS vs 5.6 FPS
- non Flash Sync vs Flash Sync

Based on the spec the price of 6D should be very close to D600. However, you know recently Canon's price is not good. Thus, I would guess the price of 6D will be about 2500.


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## TonyY (Sep 13, 2012)

I have a Sony Nex 5N, the APS-C image quality is as good as my loved 5D MarkII, from all the review I've read, Sony sensor is better than Canon. Canon should lower their price, they thought they were still in 5D and 5D Mark II time that dominating the market.


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## Axilrod (Sep 13, 2012)

cliffwang said:


> - 22MP vs 24MP
> - 19 AF vs 39 AF
> - 4.9 FPS vs 5.6 FPS
> - non Flash Sync vs Flash Sync
> ...



I think that's too close to the 5D3. 5D3's have been selling on eBay (non-gray market) for under $3k for months. I've seen one close to new listed on CL for $2700 up for the last week, it blows my mind that no one has jumped not hat yet and worries me about ever reselling mine.


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## pj1974 (Sep 13, 2012)

While I'm not planning to buy the D600 (mainly because I'm invested into Canon glass) - I do see this as good competition - that will ulimately benefit us as consumers.

Nikon is Canon's main DSLR rival. The price is 'ok' for a decent full frame (FF) body. If Nikon's (aka Sony's) sensors of late are anything to go by, the image quality will probably be of a very high quality.

It's true that there was a budget FF DSLR announced about 5 years ago (the Sony 850), which received lots of praise at the time for what it offered. Technology has progressed since. Many users are not as happy with Nikons 39pt AF (compared to the other 51pt AF offerings).

I currently own a Canon 7D, and am very happy with its 19pt AF (responsive, accurate and good spread) - even for when I use it for Birds in Flight (BIF). Of course more (good, fast, accurate cross-type points are often preferred). But the 7D's AF is good. If the rumoured 6D uses a similar AF system, that would be good enough for me for a FF.

Meanwhile, I'm looking down the track to what Canon might be putting in a 7DmkII.... But I expect yes, if the Nikon D600 rrp is $2100, probably a Canon 6D would be a few hundred dollars more..... maybe $2399?

Paul


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## mitch.o (Sep 13, 2012)

TonyY said:


> I have a Sony Nex 5N, the APS-C image quality is as good as my loved 5D MarkII, from all the review I've read, Sony sensor is better than Canon. Canon should lower their price, they thought they were still in 5D and 5D Mark II time that dominating the market.



Canon doesn't just set their prices based on the (supposed) superiority of a competitor's product. They set prices based on their own production costs.


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## Aglet (Sep 13, 2012)

That D600 is a very nicely spec'd unit for the price.

http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/spec.htm

has enough good features and customization to do virtually anything any non-pro will ever need, and should cover what most pros need too.

I like it.
But with 4 Nik bodies already on hand I can certainly wait to see what Canon's response will be and how each of these new "budget" FF bodies perform on the test charts.

I hope that its sensor performs at least as well as the D800's.
Considering the slightly larger pixels, it could perform even better if it hasn't been compromised by marketing.

Viva la competition!

update edit - found the brochure link too

http://chsvimg.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/pdf/d600_20p.pdf

.. from page 4, upper left paragraph, ".. while keeping noise remarkably low throughout the wide ISO range, and even further reduced at ISO 100."

Recent Nikon bodies already have impressively low noise at 100 ISO.
If this thing is even better, well, then I'm salivating.

there's more on that page about how they deal with noise.

I'm very interested to see how this performs and how Canon will compete with their next FF body.


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## TonyY (Sep 13, 2012)

mitch.o said:


> TonyY said:
> 
> 
> > I have a Sony Nex 5N, the APS-C image quality is as good as my loved 5D MarkII, from all the review I've read, Sony sensor is better than Canon. Canon should lower their price, they thought they were still in 5D and 5D Mark II time that dominating the market.
> ...



I guess they will be lossing the game then.


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## cliffwang (Sep 13, 2012)

Axilrod said:


> cliffwang said:
> 
> 
> > - 22MP vs 24MP
> ...



The list price of 5D3 is still 3500. The list price of 6D is very possible about 2500. As you mention people could get a 5D3 from authorized dealer for about 2900-3000 nowadays. That means people could get 6D for about 2000-2200 if they are not lazy to do their homework. I got my 5D3 for under 3K. Just recommend slickdeals.net for lazy people to find good deals. All my camera and lenses deals are from the website and all about 80%- of the list price. The only thing is you have to wait for deals. That's not really a good way to buy gears for PROs.


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## cliffwang (Sep 13, 2012)

TonyY said:


> mitch.o said:
> 
> 
> > TonyY said:
> ...



That will take many many years. Canon won't keep their high price for long. The high pricing strategy won't hurt Canon much for now because it really has high market share. And high margin can bring Canon more profits. What Canon needs to do is changing the pricing strategy when it notice losing its customers. From business point of view, Canon is probably doing great job.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 13, 2012)

mitch.o said:


> TonyY said:
> 
> 
> > I have a Sony Nex 5N, the APS-C image quality is as good as my loved 5D MarkII, from all the review I've read, Sony sensor is better than Canon. Canon should lower their price, they thought they were still in 5D and 5D Mark II time that dominating the market.
> ...



I respectfully disagree. The market also dictates the price. Canon surely before it releases something will study the market and release their product at a competitive price. You don't operate a business without looking at the current market. I think all their bosses know business management and knows this cardinal rule in business. Well, at least I can say Canon tries hard to keep up with the market. It's just their sensor technology is the one that's failing them. In the case of 5D3, do you think if they had offered a lot better sensor then it will more than justify the cost they set at $3500? Already everything in 5D3 is better than D800 except the sensor.


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## weixing (Sep 13, 2012)

Hi,


cliffwang said:


> - 22MP vs 24MP
> - 19 AF vs 39 AF
> - 4.9 FPS vs 5.6 FPS
> - non Flash Sync vs Flash Sync
> ...


 Nikon D600 only had 9 out of the 39 AF points are cross type, so if the rumor Canon 6D get the 7D AF, 19AF point will be all cross type. IMHO, 10 more cross AF point had more significant advantage over the 2MP and 1FPS disadvantage... so the question is the price. :

Have a nice day.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 13, 2012)

I think it's not only the price. Upgraders from APS-C will find Nikon offering much easier to take. Imagine if you're invested in DX (AF-S) glasses. You can still take D600 and little by little upgrade your lenses. It's besides the fact that it's offering it at almost the same price of 5D2. Wow!


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## JohanCruyff (Sep 13, 2012)

weixing said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> cliffwang said:
> ...



How many Canon users (or expert photographers) would give up the (chanche to use the) _precious _ Canon White (or black) Lenses for a few hundred dollars / euros?


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## hyles (Sep 13, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> I think it's not only the price. Upgraders from APS-C will find Nikon offering much easier to take. Imagine if you're invested in DX (AF-S) glasses. You can still take D600 and little by little upgrade your lenses. It's besides the fact that it's offering it at almost the same price of 5D2. Wow!


I can't se why buying FF to use it in crop mode, it is something I have never understood. Sometimes it can be useful cropping an image, but if i had to spend 2200 to buy d600 and using allways in crop mode, i would go for d7000 and some good glass.
Diego


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## aznable (Sep 13, 2012)

cliffwang said:


> - 22MP vs 24MP
> - 19 AF vs 39 AF
> - 4.9 FPS vs 5.6 FPS
> - non Flash Sync vs Flash Sync
> ...



the price would have to be 1500usd or so?...2100 usd 
the autofocus system has just 9 cross type sensor :-\
it lacks microfocus adjustment and has usb 2.0 interface (stupid thing)

the 6D is going to cost the same, if not less


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## torger (Sep 13, 2012)

A major part of the manufacturing cost is the sensor, large sensors are exponentially more expensive than smaller ones. With today's sensor manufacturing technology a full-frame camera cannot approach the price of an APS-C camera.

I've heard somewhere that 60% of an entry level full-frame camera manufacturing cost is the sensor, and for these even lower cost cameras it's probably more.

Bottom line -- if you want cheap don't go full-frame.


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## weixing (Sep 13, 2012)

Hi,


verysimplejason said:


> I think it's not only the price. Upgraders from APS-C will find Nikon offering much easier to take. Imagine if you're invested in DX (AF-S) glasses. You can still take D600 and little by little upgrade your lenses. It's besides the fact that it's offering it at almost the same price of 5D2. Wow!


 I just wonder how many people will actually use the crop mode over a long period of time? For example, a user who own a D3200 with quite a number of DX lens decided to upgrade to D600 while he'll slowly upgrade to FX lens... then suddenly realized in DX mode, he only had 10MP on D600 while his old D3200 had 24MP... hmm... I'm not sure about others, but for me, I'll not be very happy during the transition time. If I'm a Nikon user ready to upgrade to a FF DSLR, I'll first upgrade all my len to FX lens before getting a FF DSLR.

So, for me, a FF DSLR offering a crop mode is not attractive at all, unless when using crop mode, the FF DSLR can achieve a much higher frame rate then that's another story.

Have a nice day.


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## Bennymiata (Sep 13, 2012)

I wonder if it will have the same green-screen display and the focus point problems as the D800?

This new D600 still doesn't sway me enough to trade out of my 5D3.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 13, 2012)

weixing said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> verysimplejason said:
> ...



Not many of course but still the path remains for APS-C upgraders. Not everybody takes the path that we are taking (lens first before body). But at least the choice is still there. I'm also not saying it's an important feature, but at least Nikon cares for those upgraders.

Also the extra reach albeit reduced IQ for DX mode is important for some (bird and action photogs). I know, it can be achieved in post-processing but still the reduced post-processing time is a welcome one.


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## Tayvin (Sep 13, 2012)

Does anyone know who made the sensor for this camera? I hope it's Sony.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 13, 2012)

Tayvin said:


> Does anyone know who made the sensor for this camera? I hope it's Sony.



I think DPREVIEW reports it's Sony but manufactured to Nikon's requirements.


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## marinien (Sep 13, 2012)

No AF micro adjust. Max flash sync 1/200s. Max shutter speed 1/4000s.
For the price, I would get the D700 instead. Better everything (for me) except (arguably) the sensor.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 13, 2012)

mitch.o said:


> Canon doesn't just set their prices based on the (supposed) superiority of a competitor's product. They set prices based on their own production costs.



I'm quite sure you're wrong here - their production costs have nothing to do with it, I doubt they can even figure them out considering the r&d involved that has to be returned, too. The price is simply as high as they can get away with it w/o loosing too much market share, and whey the early adopters got the products they'll lower the price according to demand (that might be official or vendor rebates, too).



Aglet said:


> But with 4 Nik bodies already on hand I can certainly wait to see what Canon's response will be and how each of these new "budget" FF bodies perform on the test charts.



My 2 cents: $2000+ certainly isn't "budget", for this price I expect a quality product even though of course they won't cannibalize the 5d3.



marinien said:


> No AF micro adjust. Max flash sync 1/200s. Max shutter speed 1/4000s.+



Well, 1/4000s certainly is enough for 99% of my shots. The 5d series only has 1/200, too - doesn't matter much because of hss though. But no afma is rather impertinent on a camera with this price tag, I guess it's cut to prevent people buying 3rd party lenses that often need adjustment.



Freelancer said:


> Bennymiata said:
> 
> 
> > This new D600 still doesn't sway me enough to trade out of my 5D3.
> ...



The real question is: What would you buy for the same price - a 6d with a new 24-70 mk2 or a 5d3 with a Tamron 24-70? Yeah, right. But this is just theory because the 5d3 will freefall once enough quantities of the 6d are on the market and it isn't too crippled.


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## And-Rew (Sep 13, 2012)

I find the specs for this camera impressive, and the price - both of which should cause Canon some concerns.

To me, this very much takes the mantle away from the 5D2 - and certainly puts pressure on the 5D3.

Yes, I know the 5D2 is 4 years old etc - but even now it is still the benchmark that is used to judge the current releases by.

The price of this camera is slightly less than where the 5D3 should be - which would then have left it killing the competition dead in the water - but instead, Canon have opted to scare off a lot of potential customers and fans by creating these ridiculous prices for their newer kit. Technology prices are supposed to get cheaper - but not in Canon's case, it is most definitely bucking a very long trend without any supporting evidence except greed!

How will Canon respond? Probably with another own goal! ???


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## Basti187 (Sep 13, 2012)

so the cheapest d600 i can find for the UK is £1800($2900) which is £300 less than for the 5dm3, that's not exactly the "cheap entry FF" price tbh, I know it'll drop but I would have considered switching to nikon at a cheaper price!


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## traveller (Sep 13, 2012)

If Canon wants to respond with a hypothetical "6D", they don't have as much room to manoeuvre as Nikon. From what I gather, the full frame sensor is certainly a major component of the cost of producing these cameras; so Canon doesn't have a lot of opportunity to undercut the D600, even if they wanted to. They would certainly struggle to match the D600's specifications, because that would make the "6D" too similar to the 5D MkIII. I'm afraid that I have to agree with some of the previous posters on this thread: we'll see a situation very similar to the 60D vs. D7000, where Canon simply introduces a lower specified competitior for the same (or more) money...


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## Marsu42 (Sep 13, 2012)

And-Rew said:


> Technology prices are supposed to get cheaper - but not in Canon's case, it is most definitely bucking a very long trend without any supporting evidence except greed!



Economists tell us there's nothing wrong with greed.

But concerning tech advance, if everything would keep getting cheaper a tech company would be selling everything for $100 in some time. Instead they re-invest the money saved from tech advance into better products - and the 5d3 would have been if it'd have had the price of the 5d2 on release.



Basti187 said:


> so the cheapest d600 i can find for the UK is £1800($2900) which is £300 less than for the 5dm3



All now products have an early adopter's premium on it, the d600 will drop a couple of hundred whatever after a few month and you'll get better prices from competitive dealers once enough d600 are on the shelves.


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## pakosouthpark (Sep 13, 2012)

if canon could surprise us with better specs and same price.. but it won't. let's see what they come up with..


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## dstppy (Sep 13, 2012)

Okay, so where's that "it's gonna be $1500, canon's gonna poop their pants" guy now?

So, we've got a camera that's $300 more than and basically a 'single step up' from the 4 year old canon. I'll pass.

Seriously, 6D could simply be what was posted: 7D AF, digic V+ FF and sell for $2500 without issue. 

Boy, I'm glad we were prepared with thread-upon-thread about how this camera was going to put Canon out of business :


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## Musouka (Sep 13, 2012)

I wonder if there are any sales tracking services or stats for interchangeable lens cameras. It would be quite interesting how Canon, and others, are doing with their current lineups.


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## CharlieB (Sep 13, 2012)

torger said:


> A major part of the manufacturing cost is the sensor, large sensors are exponentially more expensive than smaller ones. With today's sensor manufacturing technology a full-frame camera cannot approach the price of an APS-C camera.



Just a little lesson in manufacturing economics. The cost of manufacturing has nothing - repeat - nothing to do with the price that any product sells for in the marketplace.

The price in the market, even as "suggested" by the manufacturer is always based on feedback from the market - thats you and me. The lifecycle of a product is not from the ground up, but from the final concept down. Marketing at a company decides it needs a product with feature set "X" at price point "Y" to compete. This is all based on marketing research, focus groups, informed decisions, and gut level feelings of the marketing department. At that point, they go to manufacturing and say "build us this....(whatever)". There may be some back and forth, especially when new technology will need to be brought in. The back and forth is more or less to determine the scale of the expected propduct - its product life, the number of units, how they can also use technology in other products... that sort of thing. At the end of the day - manufacturing's job is to build marketing's product, and do it at the lowest possible price, so that they make the most money. In a company the size of Canon, manufacturing is a seperate company within a company, with their own bottom line. They sell to marketing, which in turn has its own bottom line... but... always.... the actual "cost" to make anything, has no effect on its sale price. The price is always determined by market conditions. Always.

(the above is the condensed version, proto Readers Digest etc etc)


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## Marsu42 (Sep 13, 2012)

pakosouthpark said:


> if canon could surprise us with better specs and same price.. but it won't. let's see what they come up with..



It's really not about the core specs but about the complete set including firmware features and handling - but only a real review will tell us in a couple of month when the real hardware is here (if ever).


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## weixing (Sep 13, 2012)

CharlieB said:


> torger said:
> 
> 
> > A major part of the manufacturing cost is the sensor, large sensors are exponentially more expensive than smaller ones. With today's sensor manufacturing technology a full-frame camera cannot approach the price of an APS-C camera.
> ...


 But must at least higher than the manufacturing cost, right?? Unless they just want to get the market share 

Have a nice day.


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## SwampYankee (Sep 13, 2012)

Bennymiata said:


> I wonder if it will have the same green-screen display and the focus point problems as the D800?
> 
> This new D600 still doesn't sway me enough to trade out of my 5D3.


but how about a 7D who's original price point wasn't too far off this? They have a D800 to match the 5D3


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## lola (Sep 13, 2012)

dstppy said:


> Okay, so where's that "it's gonna be $1500, canon's gonna poop their pants" guy now?
> 
> So, we've got a camera that's $300 more than and basically a 'single step up' from the 4 year old canon. I'll pass.
> 
> ...



As long as there are people who think a 4 year old 5D Mark II is just as good as a brand new D600, Canon has NOTHING to worry about...


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## Britman (Sep 13, 2012)

You have to also consider that Canon might not even enter this game. They have to compete against the Sony A99 and the D600 and without taking from the 5D3, so they might just decide not to bother.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 13, 2012)

CharlieB said:


> Just a little lesson in manufacturing economics. The cost of manufacturing has nothing - repeat - nothing to do with the price that any product sells for in the marketplace.



+1 ... another factor they'll have in mind is the devaluation of the products and what premium customers will pay to get a product that doesn't drop in price too fast (ff camera bodies) or not at all (L lenses). That's why I'd even consider buying the new 24-70ii - unless it's stolen or I manage to trash it, unlike Tamron I'd expect to be able to sell the Canon lens later on if I find I don't need it anymore.



lola said:


> As long as there are people who think a 4 year old 5D Mark II is just as good as a brand new D600, Canon has NOTHING to worry about...



But they do, actually their worry is that the 5d2 is just too good to make an easy profit with a "real" successor 6d - either it'll be too expensive to people will still get a 5d3 or 5d2 as long as possible, or it'll be too inexpensive cutting profits.


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## dstppy (Sep 13, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> lola said:
> 
> 
> > As long as there are people who think a 4 year old 5D Mark II is just as good as a brand new D600, Canon has NOTHING to worry about...
> ...



I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic . . . implying that those that look at actual images and performance are mindless automatons, unlike people that buy the newest thing with 3 more pixels


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## jdavidse (Sep 13, 2012)

Haha! This is the justification I use every time I buy a new lens  



Marsu42 said:


> CharlieB said:
> 
> 
> > Just a little lesson in manufacturing economics. The cost of manufacturing has nothing - repeat - nothing to do with the price that any product sells for in the marketplace.
> ...


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## Marsu42 (Sep 13, 2012)

dstppy said:


> I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic . . . implying that those that look at actual images and performance are mindless automatons, unlike people that buy the newest thing with 3 more pixels



Wups, hard to figure out for me sometimes what people say w/o smilies if opinions are so contradictory as about d800/5d3/...


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## verysimplejason (Sep 13, 2012)

I hope they'll sell 5D2 @ around $1K or $1.3K.  I'll take it without thinking.


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## Ellen Schmidtee (Sep 13, 2012)

weixing said:


> But must at least higher than the manufacturing cost, right?? Unless they just want to get the market share



On low end equipment, sure. On high end equipment, for which the customer is expected to buy some accessories (batteries, grip, flash, big white lens, etc), Canon can lose money on the camera and cover it from the profits on the accessories.


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## shannon76 (Sep 13, 2012)

Wow, $2,100 and Nikon doesn't even give you a full metal body? I hope Canon isn't so cheap with the magnesium alloy. You can get the 7D for $1200 and the body is a tank. Hopefully the 6D will be the same. :-\


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## verysimplejason (Sep 13, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> pakosouthpark said:
> 
> 
> > if canon could surprise us with better specs and same price.. but it won't. let's see what they come up with..
> ...



It will be a surprise if Canon will churn out a sensor better than the one in 5D3 and 1DX for 6D. I'm expecting 6D's sensor to be below of that D600. I'm crossing my fingers that they do exceed expectations though. I really want to upgrade already to FF after I acquire my 17-40L.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 13, 2012)

scrappydog said:


> weixing said:
> 
> 
> > CharlieB said:
> ...



It will also depend on how much they want to "protect" their market share. After all, a customer lost is almost lost forever once he invests on a lens and body. It's very hard to switch to another system due to the cost.


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## willis (Sep 13, 2012)

Well nothing mind blowing specs on D600 :


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## verysimplejason (Sep 13, 2012)

shannon76 said:


> Wow, $2,100 and Nikon doesn't even give you a full metal body? I hope Canon isn't so cheap with the magnesium alloy. You can get the 7D for $1200 and the body is a tank. Hopefully the 6D will be the same. :-\



7D, built like a tank, but rebel-like IQ. Even 650D is better.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 13, 2012)

willis said:


> Well nothing mind blowing specs on D600 :



what? it's an eye-opener.


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## dstppy (Sep 13, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> shannon76 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, $2,100 and Nikon doesn't even give you a full metal body? I hope Canon isn't so cheap with the magnesium alloy. You can get the 7D for $1200 and the body is a tank. Hopefully the 6D will be the same. :-\
> ...



citation required . . .


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## verysimplejason (Sep 13, 2012)

dstppy said:


> verysimplejason said:
> 
> 
> > shannon76 said:
> ...



No need. Sensor is same with 550D unless you dispute it.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2012)

weixing said:


> But must at least higher than the manufacturing cost, right??



Amazon Kindle Fire - retail price $199, unit production cost $202 and they ship it to you for free.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > verysimplejason said:
> ...



Yes, the 7D, 60D, T2i/550D, and T3i/600D use the same sensor. The 650D adds on-sensor phase detect AF. You're saying the 650D has better IQ than the 550D/600D/7D...and if you're making that claim, you need to back it up, because from the testing that I've seen, there's no meaningful difference in IQ.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 13, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> verysimplejason said:
> 
> 
> > dstppy said:
> ...



That's the exact word... no meaningful difference. Sorry I've made a mistake of comparing 7D to an almost 50% cheaper new rebel.


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## unfocused (Sep 13, 2012)

dstppy said:


> Okay, so where's that "it's gonna be $1500, canon's gonna poop their pants" guy now?... Boy, I'm glad we were prepared with thread-upon-thread about how this camera was going to put Canon out of business :



They are all busy preparing their "Canon's-charging-$2100-for-a-camera-that-has-two-less-megapixels-and-only-19-autofocus-points-and-doesn't-even-have-a-pop-up-flash-I'm-gonna-sell-my-40D-and-switch-to-Nikon" rants.



verysimplejason said:


> I hope they'll sell 5D2 @ around $1K or $1.3K.  I'll take it without thinking.



That version will by delivered by Bigfoot riding a Unicorn.


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## kennephoto (Sep 13, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> verysimplejason said:
> 
> 
> > dstppy said:
> ...


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## Fishnose (Sep 13, 2012)

D600 is not only for people coming up form DX - it's also a great 2nd body for pros. 
The sensor is every bit as good as the D3x, and with a small body this is SO useful to stick in the bag as a backup or hang it round you neck with a wide angle when you're running around shooting.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 13, 2012)

kennephoto said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > verysimplejason said:
> ...



he said it all. right?


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## preppyak (Sep 13, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Amazon Kindle Fire - retail price $199, unit production cost $202 and they ship it to you for free.


Yeah, although I believe one of the unique elements of that that camera manufacturers can't take advantage of is putting ads on your screen. But, lenses are very much like apps, so otherwise it makes sense. 

I find it interesting that the D600 released at basically the same price point as the 5dII is at now, retail wise. Makes me wonder if they can really go much lower in terms of retail price than the $2000 mark.


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## RLPhoto (Sep 13, 2012)

Nikon has poked the sleeping beast and it has awaken. 

It will soon unleash it's fury. 

Nikons reaction will look similar to this. 

O_O


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, the 7D, 60D, T2i/550D, and T3i/600D use the same sensor. The 650D adds on-sensor phase detect AF. You're saying the 650D has better IQ than the 550D/600D/7D...and if you're making that claim, you need to back it up, because from the testing that I've seen, there's no meaningful difference in IQ.
> ...



No, you said, "Even 650D is *better*." Not 'no meaningful difference'...better. Now that you can't back your claim up with evidence, there's no difference. : 

As for the 650D being half the cost of the 7D, with no better IQ, so what? No one is claiming the 7D delivers better IQ, that's not what it's about. The 1DsIII launched at over three times the cost of the 5DII, with no meaningful IQ difference. The 7D offers a whole host of improvements over the 650D in areas that are critically important to some people, and irrelevant to others. If you're one of those who derives no benefit from the better features of the 7D, stick with your 500D and be happy.


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## V8Beast (Sep 13, 2012)

I thought it was going to be $1,500. What gives? Now all the Canon boys have to whine about are DR instead of DR and price ;D


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## Rodknee (Sep 13, 2012)

Looking at the specs and starting price (which could drop in a few months) it could be popular with Videographers


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## Meh (Sep 13, 2012)

Yawn. It's all about the lenses. Canon rocks!


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## K-amps (Sep 13, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> mitch.o said:
> 
> 
> > Canon doesn't just set their prices based on the (supposed) superiority of a competitor's product. They set prices based on their own production costs.
> ...



+1 exactly what I would have said. If costs were based on production only then Canon would:

1) Either have to re-tool their lines
2) Go out of Business

if competitor production costs are 20-30% less...

At the end of the day, Canon will Milk their customers because they have good glass... people are bought into a system. The 5d3 was overpriced for this reason, and they got away with it... but many people are peed off that a similar costing body, costs 500-700 less. Had the 5d3 have similar DR and low ISO noise performance as the D800, it would have been a different story. Sensor cost for FF is higher than APS-C yes, but it is no where near what people are led to believe.... it is no where near the 60% of total cost that some people claim...

The 5d2 also has an FF sensor and sells in the $1700 refurb market... don't tell me 60% of the cost of the 5d3 is the 7 year old technology sensor used in the 5d2. 

Nikon can buy sensors form Sony (who make a profit) stick them in their bodies and sell them for less than Canon, if anything, Nikon bodies should cost more... and we have fanboys telling us how high productions costs are... please.

Nikon has done well by properly pricing their bodies... helps us Canon guys in the long run.

Now Nikon... please make a Body that can take EF lens's and you will really do us a favor by making Canon sending their engineers to work on better sensor tech and not waste time on making new $$$ Cine bodies everytime we look around. 

PS: This is my last post as a 1D Mark IV... I will try and be nicer in my first post as a 1D X


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## distant.star (Sep 13, 2012)

.
I've read some whoppers on this forum, but this is worthy of a "Looniest Ever" award nomination. This is worthy of the advanced economic thinking that created the worldwide banking/financial crisis.

Apparently Henry Ford was right when he said, "Everything is possible." Not "anything," but "everything."

Congratulations on taking us to a new realm.

It must be working. Last Sunday I was walking about, taking pictures as I am wont to do. I came across two little girls on the side of the road with a lemonade stand. They also had available water and candy and a few other sundries; they had learned to diversify. They told me they were trying to "earn enough money to buy french fries." True story.

So, their "manufacturing costs" meant nothing once they had enough cash on hand to head for the Burger King.

You'll have to excuse me now as I'm headed to the bank. I want to apply for a loan so I can start a business making cameras. I want to set up the most best and most expensive manufacturing facility I can imagine -- put a lot of people to work along the way, and then sell the cameras for less than they cost to produce. A sure winning plan, and the bank will surely want to be my partner.

Have a mad hatter day, everyone.




CharlieB said:


> Just a little lesson in manufacturing economics. The cost of manufacturing has nothing - repeat - nothing to do with the price that any product sells for in the marketplace.


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## pakosouthpark (Sep 13, 2012)

yeah this camera will drop down price for xmas! maybe a 200 dollars drop. hope the uk follows as the price here is just fekin ridiculous!! and canon will do the same if they release it (6D) before december.


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## peederj (Sep 13, 2012)

Rodknee said:


> Looking at the specs and starting price (which could drop in a few months) it could be popular with Videographers



Nah, the DSLR days for video are wrapping up. The GH3 will probably be the last relevant video DSLR. People are moving up to cameras that are designed for cinema use...Sony just put out a full frame VG900 with an E mount that you can use the Metabones adapter to host your EF glass on, and Canon's C100 with the addition of an external recorder is going to get you terrific output with no excessive rigging needs. The Nikons are still stuck in the line-skipping days so having clean HDMI out doesn't help terribly much, and the low light performance isn't so great either for video.

Commenting further above, the 650D sensor actually tests out a little worse than the 600D/60D/7D/550D. Canon would do better working off the 1DX sensor I think rather than the 5D3 sensor...the 1DX has better video resolution due to better in-camera processing. But they will probably build off the 5D3 sensor as it may be cheaper for them to make.


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## RC (Sep 13, 2012)

Lots of interesting comments and points of view. I love competition, we consumers win. Now hopefully Canon will offer a successful answer to Nikon.

Personally I'm not concerned about the lowest price or even a "low" price. Just give us a good solid FF body option with the essential specs that is priced appropriately. Must have AFMA, 7D/5D form factor/button layout, and good build (and of course it must have the essentials).

I don't like this notion "entry level FF" that is being tossed around on CR. Entry cameras are lower end Rebels. There is plenty of room for another xD FF body IMO but with reduced features. Lots of folks who don't want to (or can't) fork out $3,500 for the 5D3. And I'm sure lots of folks who would love a second FF body but with less bells and whistles than the 5D3.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 13, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> verysimplejason said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Here it is:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-t4i/canon-t4iA5.HTM

Sorry it took sometime because 650D apparently is a little bit new. I know the difference isn't that much, but there it is.

Yup. You're right. I'm not going the 7D way. I'm leaning more on landscape photography and portraiture so DR is more important to me. I'm happy with my 500D but I'm thinking of going for an FF instead of a crop. What I'm trying to say is that it used to be that 7D speed, AF and weather seal are enough to justify its cost for me but now with the newer 650D it almost isn't the case anymore or shall we say it's already due for replacement. Sure for sports or bird photographers like you, 7D might still be a better alternative or 2nd body but not for me or everyone else involved in other types of photography. To add, money is also an object for somebody like me but not to professionals like you so my opinion on this matter. Anyway, thanks for the advise on being happy with my 500D. It makes sense.


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## marshall (Sep 13, 2012)

*This is genius by Mr. Nikon*. Let me explain myself:

This move by Nikon is not about a body, but about the whole ecosystem. When you buy a camera, being a P&S, a mirrorless, a DSLR, etc, what the company is getting is the potential to upsell you with accessories, lenses, better bodies, and in Canon's case, mice and calculators. 

The ultimate business goal for Canon (or Nikon) is for you to buy all of that from them. Thus they offer a coherent progression: from P&S to Rebels to higher end crops to FF. There are two weak links in the chain. The first is the transition from P&S to a low end DSLR as you are not really invested on a system yet. However, even at that level there are elements to steer your purchase to the ecosystem: similar-looking user interfaces, similar design language, brand recognition, etc. The second weak point is the transition from crop to FF. Here you are already in the ecosystem, but for most the transition probably involves buying some new -expensive lenses-.

In the past few years, mirrorless punched a hole in the first transition. Canon (and Nikon) now had to deal with a third option for people ready to move up form a P&S. The main effect of the mirrorless was not really as much as lost revenue due to lesser sales of Rebels, but lost revenue due to the people they failed to get into the ecosystem. Every person who does not buy a Rebel, will not buy flashes, expensive lenses, and probably won't buy your calculators either. Nikon respoded with the Nikon 1 system. Canon responded recently as well, but with an option that seems overpriced at the moment give what brings to the table. In any case, both Canon and Nikon are acting to plug that hole.

Now back to the D600. This camera is aimed squarely at the second transition. This is Nikon telling folks stuck in the Rebel/60D/7D world because of the high cost of entry into Canon FF, "hey fellows, you want s significant increase in IQ for a cost that is reasonable to you (otherwise you would already gotten a 5DIII)?... here have the D600". This is FF for people who is already invested in photography (enough to spend two grand on a body) but for which 3 grand for an MKIII is beyond of what they want to spend. This people almost by definition is bound to buy accessories, lenses, and even perhaps, at some point move up in the ecosystem and get more expensive bodies. Nikon is taking the market that Canon built via very good, inexpensive rebels, and moving them to their ecosystem. Genius. 

In my mind there is also a psychological component to the move: Canon has been hitting us with substantial price increases with every new product. Nikon am sure is playing that card: "look, we care about amateurs that were priced out of the upgrade path by Canon. Hence, you should assume we are nicer fellows to deal with". Some may even think Nikon lenses will be cheaper (not the case AFAIK). 

My point with this long rant is that the D600 is a game changer, not from a features standpoint but from a business angle. It should not to be evaluated against the 5DIII (or even the 5DII, which for most people updating from more "modern" crops feels stale and outdated... after all Canon trained us to expect a new Rebel every year and a new XXD every two or so. Two grand for a 5y/o piece of electronics that has already been replaced... yeah right). The D600 should be evaluated against the 7D for those upgrading from Rebels or 60D and has no real competition for those upgrading from a 7D. Granted, the 7D is a spectacular camera beyond IQ (amazing AF, great speed, etc.). But for many, those features are nice to have but are secondary to a better IQ. If the D600 delivers on what it promises, Canon will have to respond the same way it responded to the mirrorless sucking -a perhaps significant- portion of the stream of early-stage upgraders because otherwise they will suffer a significant bleeding at the FF transition.

I, personally, will give Canon about a year to release a budget FF because am invested in the system. I don't need an FF that can track a fly flying towards me, a frame rate fast enough to capture a balloon exploding, or weather sealing tight enough I can take the camera diving. I do want better AF than a Rebel/60D (the 7D AF would do), AFMA, 5 FPS would be plenty, and a significant improvement in IQ over what any of those cameras can deliver. Better noise control at higher ISO levels (at least clean images @ 3200... please?) would be greatly appreciated. I will gladly pay two grand for such camera and promise to eventually buy a 24-70 MKII and whatever will replace the 430EXII. If you come up with a ring-based 100-400 (under 2K of course) I may get that as well. If you release this soon I promise I will even buy the calculator. 

Deal Canon?


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> I know the difference isn't that much, but there it is.



Thanks for the link. Clicking on the RAW Comparison subtab, scrolling down, Imaging Resource states, "_As you can see, the Canon T4i performs very similar to the T3i, though detail in the red leaf cloth isn't quite as good (something we also saw in camera JPEGs)._" So, you were correct in that there is a slight difference...except the T4i/650D actually seems to be a little *worse*, not better, compared to the T3i (7D sensor). 



verysimplejason said:


> What I'm trying to say is that it used to be that 7D speed, AF and weather seal are enough to justify its cost for me but now with the newer 650D it almost isn't the case anymore or shall we say it's already due for replacement. Sure for sports or bird photographers like you, 7D might still be a better alternative or 2nd body but not for me or everyone else involved in other types of photography. To add, money is also an object for somebody like me but not to professionals like you so my opinion on this matter. Anyway, thanks for the advise on being happy with my 500D. It makes sense.



Well, the 7D is over three years old now. But still, the IQ is equivalent to the 650D, the AF is substantially better, and the build is way better. 

One key thing for me, and a big part of the reason I upgraded from a T1i/500D to a 7D in the first place, is AF Microadjustment. I shoot with fast primes, and the lack of AFMA can be a real problem in that case. You either need to get lucky, be willing to buy and return multiple copies of a lens, or be willing to send lens(es) and body into Canon for adjustment. Personally, I'll never buy a camera that lacks AFMA. Now, I'm not going to buy one, but the D600 does have AFMA. If Canon omit that from an entry-level FF body (as the omitted it from the 60D, despite having it in the 50D), that will be a serious error, IMO.


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## kennephoto (Sep 13, 2012)

Does a cameras age really matter? Sure the 7d is 3-4 years old but I got cameras that are 10-20 times older that still take a good picture. But for me a canon 7d and a canon 5d2 is an awesome combo and I'm gonna trade up to those! And now theres a new iPhone to be preordered tomorrow!!!


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## DianeK (Sep 13, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Personally, I'll never buy a camera that lacks AFMA. Now, I'm not going to buy one, but the D600 does have AFMA. If Canon omit that from an entry-level FF body (as the omitted it from the 60D, despite having it in the 50D), that will be a serious error, IMO.



I don't think the D600 has AFMA which is what will keep me from buying it. And if Canon does not put that feature in it's rumored 6D, then I won't be buying it either.
Diane


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## DianeK (Sep 13, 2012)

marshall said:


> I, personally, will give Canon about a year to release a budget FF because am invested in the system. I don't need an FF that can track a fly flying towards me, a frame rate fast enough to capture a balloon exploding, or weather sealing tight enough I can take the camera diving. I do want better AF than a Rebel/60D (the 7D AF would do), AFMA, 5 FPS would be plenty, and a significant improvement in IQ over what any of those cameras can deliver. Better noise control at higher ISO levels (at least clean images @ 3200... please?) would be greatly appreciated. I will gladly pay two grand for such camera and promise to eventually buy a 24-70 MKII and whatever will replace the 430EXII.
> Deal Canon?



Ditto!
Diane


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## marshall (Sep 13, 2012)

Canon cannot remove AFMA from a FF body. Most people going to FF are well aware of the importance of AFMA and probably owns some primes for which they had to use (or wish they had!) AFMA. 

When my 50D went to camera heave I immediately ordered a 60D. Didn't bother to read the reviews/specifications/etc... just assumed it would be as good if not better than my 50D. I probably spent two ours going over the manual trying to find where AFMA was... of course there was no AFMA (incidentally, looking on the internet for *how to set AFMA in the 60D* was how I discovered this site). 

Lack of AFMA made my 50/1.4 into a manual focus lens only (or live view if your subject had the patience). I returned the camera and got a T3i instead (the 7D was too expensive at the time). With the difference I bought a EF-S 60 macro, lovely little lens. 

I miss my 50D and been awaiting eagerly for a 70D with AFMA. Not sure it will happen. However, now that I have the FF bug for my studio stuff am considering the D600... If I just hadn't fall in love with the MP-E 65...


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## rosw (Sep 13, 2012)

Hi 

with D600 out (without Vari-Angle Clear View LCD, Sony A99 (limited turning LCD)
what are the odd / chances that the new Canon budget FF camera will have a turning LCD ??

any comments are welcome ...


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## dswatson83 (Sep 13, 2012)

DianeK said:


> I, personally, will give Canon about a year to release a budget FF because am invested in the system. I don't need an FF that can track a fly flying towards me, a frame rate fast enough to capture a balloon exploding, or weather sealing tight enough I can take the camera diving. I do want better AF than a Rebel/60D (the 7D AF would do), AFMA, 5 FPS would be plenty, and a significant improvement in IQ over what any of those cameras can deliver. Better noise control at higher ISO levels (at least clean images @ 3200... please?) would be greatly appreciated. I will gladly pay two grand for such camera and promise to eventually buy a 24-70 MKII and whatever will replace the 430EXII.
> Deal Canon?


Right on. I also want 2 SD slots rather than 1 which should be a given.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2012)

DianeK said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I'll never buy a camera that lacks AFMA. Now, I'm not going to buy one, but the D600 does have AFMA. If Canon omit that from an entry-level FF body (as the omitted it from the 60D, despite having it in the 50D), that will be a serious error, IMO.
> ...



I think you don't think so because you read DPR too much. : If that's the only thing stopping you...you should go ahead and order your D600. It does have AFMA, just read the specs as listed by Nikon.


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## simonxu11 (Sep 13, 2012)

DianeK said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I'll never buy a camera that lacks AFMA. Now, I'm not going to buy one, but the D600 does have AFMA. If Canon omit that from an entry-level FF body (as the omitted it from the 60D, despite having it in the 50D), that will be a serious error, IMO.
> ...


It does have AFMF or "Fine tuning" is called by Nikon

"Nikon Multi-CAM 4800 autofocus sensor module with TTL phase detection, fine-tuning"
http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/spec.htm


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## bbasiaga (Sep 13, 2012)

Its funny the features that everyone considers 'necessary' or a body is 'DOA'. There would have to be 1,000 versions of each model to make everyone happy.  Or everyone would have to buy a 1Dx/Nikon Equivalent. 

A little lesson on how screwed up econonomics are: someone said 'electronics are supposed to get cheaper...' well, they do - but that doesn't mean the price has to go down. Inflation is generally calculated on how much it costs to get what you paid for yester-year, in today's dollars. Only, you can't get a new 1DII anymore, so they compare it to the next thing - say the 1DX. Its more? Yes, but it offers more features. So they determine the relative value, and guess what, its only really 2% more, or in some cases its less. Buy a car in 1990? A nice Lexus for $20k? That same one costs $40k now? But wait...look at all those safety systems, bells, whistles, buzzers, and knick knaks the '90 model didn't have. Lo and behold, the new one is actually the same price - from an inflationary/technological stanpoint. That is how the calculation works. Its how stuff is 50% more expensive now, but inflation has been 'very low' for a 'long time'. Its also why food isn't included in inflationary costs. Your potato today has no technological advantage over the one from 20yrs ago, but its still twice as expensive. What would the world's governments have to do about that if that was part of inflation?

So companies think that way. They don't want to provide better prices, they want to provide better value for the price. And that can occur at a higher price point as long as the 'value' allows it to. That is exactly what happened with the 5DIII. It has a LOT more features than the II. And therefore a lot more Value. So it is 'fairly priced' in the eye of the seller. Its up to us to validate the value calculation buy either buying or not buying the stuff. 

-Brian


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## DianeK (Sep 13, 2012)

simonxu11 said:


> It does have AFMF or "Fine tuning" is called by Nikon
> 
> "Nikon Multi-CAM 4800 autofocus sensor module with TTL phase detection, fine-tuning"
> http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/spec.htm



I stand corrected, and gladly...this camera has now become more desirable to me as I am not that invested in Canon glass that I couldn't switch.
Diane


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## DianeK (Sep 13, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> I think you don't think so because you read DPR too much. :


Busted


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## hyles (Sep 13, 2012)

I think it is nearly impossible to compare price of 5DIII and d800. beside the cost of producing the camera, there are many othere causes we don't even know about to bring up cost.
Least but not last, d800 has a newly developed sensor, with AF and meccanical part allready used in d3, d700, d3x, d4, . 5DIII is a completly new camera, with a new sensor, new AF, new body. This may be one of the reason of a higher price for the camera.
Diego


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## marinien (Sep 13, 2012)

DianeK said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > I think you don't think so because you read DPR too much. :
> ...



Thanks neuro! I was the first in this thread who talked about no AFMA with the D600 :-[


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## theqspeaks (Sep 13, 2012)

DianeK said:


> marshall said:
> 
> 
> > I, personally, will give Canon about a year to release a budget FF because am invested in the system. I don't need an FF that can track a fly flying towards me, a frame rate fast enough to capture a balloon exploding, or weather sealing tight enough I can take the camera diving. I do want better AF than a Rebel/60D (the 7D AF would do), AFMA, 5 FPS would be plenty, and a significant improvement in IQ over what any of those cameras can deliver. Better noise control at higher ISO levels (at least clean images @ 3200... please?) would be greatly appreciated. I will gladly pay two grand for such camera and promise to eventually buy a 24-70 MKII and whatever will replace the 430EXII.
> ...



Ditto ditto!
Q


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## Musouka (Sep 13, 2012)

While it's talking about the iPhone 5, I think it somehow applies to Canon as well.



> If you think the iPhone 5 is boring, I've got bad news for you. The iPhone 6 will be, too. And the iPhone 7, and every iPhone after that. Minor aesthetic variations on the same well-loved theme. They'll also, in all likelihood, be fantastic.
> 
> The only thing that will change the iPhone's design is a dramatic decline in iPhone market share, but that doesn't seem in the offing. Not any time soon, anyway. It takes years to slow down a juggernaut.
> 
> ...


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## simonxu11 (Sep 13, 2012)

hyles said:


> I think it is nearly impossible to compare price of 5DIII and d800. beside the cost of producing the camera, there are many othere causes we don't even know about to bring up cost.
> Least but not last, d800 has a newly developed sensor, with AF and meccanical part allready used in d3, d700, d3x, d4, . 5DIII is a completly new camera, with a new sensor, new AF, new body. This may be one of the reason of a higher price for the camera.
> Diego


d800 has a new sensor, new body, updated af and metering used in d4, shutter life @20,0000
5d3 has a new sensor(maybe updated), new body, new af from 1dx, metering from 1100d, shutter life @15,0000


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## FunkyCamera (Sep 13, 2012)

Half plastic, overpriced, usual Nikon poor image quality, very inaccurate autofocus... don't know why they even bothered. Pointless gimmick camera. Bit I guess they'll just bribe dxo to give it 10x the score it deserves again.


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## Zlatko (Sep 13, 2012)

K-amps said:


> At the end of the day, Canon will Milk their customers because they have good glass... people are bought into a system. The 5d3 was overpriced for this reason, and they got away with it... but many people are peed off that a similar costing body, costs 500-700 less. Had the 5d3 have similar DR and low ISO noise performance as the D800, it would have been a different story.


You're quite mistaken. The 5D3 is a nearly perfect blend of pro camera (1DX, 1DsIII, 1DIV) and small camera (5D2, 7D) in performance, features and size. There are a number of ways in which the 5D3 is perfectly suited to my work and the D800 isn't (quiet shutter mode, variable file sizes, high ISO performance, autofocus performance, radio-controlled flash system, etc.). The D800 doesn't meet my needs as well. I've heard the same sentiments from other pros — they felt that Canon had really listened to their needs with the 5D3 and Nikon really hadn't with the D800. (Of course, a landscape photographer has different needs and may be happier with the D800).

Rather than "getting away with it [higher pricing]" or "milking" their customers, Canon have delivered exactly what some photographers need at the 5D3's price level. This idea of deviously "milking" customers with "overpriced" gear is unfounded in an age when customers have very good alternatives and can switch brands without a big financial loss.


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## K-amps (Sep 13, 2012)

Zlatko said:


> K-amps said:
> 
> 
> > At the end of the day, Canon will Milk their customers because they have good glass... people are bought into a system. The 5d3 was overpriced for this reason, and they got away with it... but many people are peed off that a similar costing body, costs 500-700 less. Had the 5d3 have similar DR and low ISO noise performance as the D800, it would have been a different story.
> ...



Looks like you are carrying a peeve from our disagreement on the 24-70 thread. 

No one said that the 5D3 was not a good blend/ all round camera, I own one myself. But I still think they Milked me and you.


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## vlim (Sep 13, 2012)

D600 = 1975€ in paris

We can already pre order it


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## EYEONE (Sep 13, 2012)

K-amps said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > K-amps said:
> ...



It's true. The 5D3 is amazing and priced too high. We should probably be more upset about it than we are. 

I would have expected Nikon to to better than $2100. I think Canon could actually undercut Nikon here. Basically release a 5D2 with an expanded 7D AF system for $1,999, alone that would be enough.


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## ashmadux (Sep 13, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> shannon76 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, $2,100 and Nikon doesn't even give you a full metal body? I hope Canon isn't so cheap with the magnesium alloy. You can get the 7D for $1200 and the body is a tank. Hopefully the 6D will be the same. :-\
> ...



Nope, im shooting fashion week with a 'rebel' t2i- this rebel iq whoops 7d booty. Disclaimer- using the t2i because of image quality, and 7d is being retired, ready for trade in. Noisy POS.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2012)

ashmadux said:


> Nope, im shooting fashion week with a 'rebel' t2i- this rebel iq whoops 7d booty. Disclaimer- using the t2i because of image quality, and 7d is being retired, ready for trade in. Noisy POS.



The T2i and 7D use the same CMOS image sensor...but you're claiming the T2i has substantially better IQ? That's like buying two bottles of Guinness Extra Stout from different liquor stores and claiming one tastes much better...I suppose it's possible - but if so, it's clearly subjective and most likely due to having smoked _something_ first...


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## EYEONE (Sep 13, 2012)

ashmadux said:


> verysimplejason said:
> 
> 
> > shannon76 said:
> ...



They have the exact same sensor. It's not really possible for them to have different IQ


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## Helevitia (Sep 13, 2012)

EYEONE said:


> K-amps said:
> 
> 
> > Zlatko said:
> ...



I would buy that if the sensor and ISO noise were on par with the MK2 or better. I love my 7D minus the ISO noise. Basically I want the D600 with a Canon label on it. The 1/4000 is kind of a bummer, but not a deal breaker. I would also like to see usb 3. So my perfect Canon Camera would be FF sensor, 6-7fps, built-in flash, 1/8000, usb 3, better ISO noise than the 7D, great AF system. If Canon can do that, I will be a first day buyer. 

The current rumored specs have me concerned. I really want a built-in flash. I bought the 7D in May, assuming Canon would come out with an entry level FF DSLR by the end of the year. I planned on selling my 7D and upgrading to the new camera, so I hope I made the right decision. I guess we will know more next week? On the bright side(for me), I got my 7D for $1250, so I think I could get most of my money back. The only lens I have is the 70-200 IS USM II. If Canon doesn't come out with a competitor to the D600, I might consider selling all equipment and switching. I'll wait for reviews before making that choice.


----------



## EYEONE (Sep 13, 2012)

Helevitia said:


> I would buy that if the sensor and ISO noise were on par with the MK2 or better. I love my 7D minus the ISO noise. Basically I want the D600 with a Canon label on it. The 1/4000 is kind of a bummer, but not a deal breaker. I would also like to see usb 3. So my perfect Canon Camera would be FF sensor, 6-7fps, built-in flash, 1/8000, usb 3, better ISO noise than the 7D, great AF system. If Canon can do that, I will be a first day buyer.
> 
> The current rumored specs have me concerned. I really want a built-in flash. I bought the 7D in May, assuming Canon would come out with an entry level FF DSLR by the end of the year. I planned on selling my 7D and upgrading to the new camera, so I hope I made the right decision. I guess we will know more next week? On the bright side(for me), I got my 7D for $1250, so I think I could get most of my money back. The only lens I have is the 70-200 IS USM II. If Canon doesn't come out with a competitor to the D600, I might consider selling all equipment and switching. I'll wait for reviews before making that choice.



I think the 6D has to have a pop up flash. It won't, but it should. The only use a pop up flash is to me is for controlling other external flashes. To me that's a huge deal.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2012)

EYEONE said:


> I think the 6D has to have a pop up flash. It won't, but it should. The only use a pop up flash is to me is for controlling other external flashes. To me that's a huge deal.



I'd rather it have the ability to directly control the 600EX-RT (and future -RT Speedlites) via radio with no pop-up flash. But it won't have that, either. :


----------



## bvukich (Sep 13, 2012)

Helevitia said:


> The only lens I have is the 70-200 IS USM II. If Canon doesn't come out with a competitor to the D600, I might consider selling all equipment and switching. I'll wait for reviews before making that choice.



If your only point of reference is the 70-200/2.8IS II, you'll probably be pretty disappointed with most of Nikons lenses. If that is the better platform for you, then by all means switch; you might be wise to rent first though, just to be safe.


----------



## EYEONE (Sep 13, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> EYEONE said:
> 
> 
> > I think the 6D has to have a pop up flash. It won't, but it should. The only use a pop up flash is to me is for controlling other external flashes. To me that's a huge deal.
> ...



Well, sure. Since we're dreaming I'll take that ability too


----------



## preppyak (Sep 13, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> I'd rather it have the ability to directly control the 600EX-RT (and future -RT Speedlites) via radio with no pop-up flash. But it won't have that, either. :


Yeah, to me the pop-up flash is a waste of space atop the camera, I'd rather it be something embedded in the camera that allows control.



Helevitia said:


> So my perfect Canon Camera would be FF sensor, 6-7fps, built-in flash, 1/8000, usb 3, better ISO noise than the 7D, great AF system. If Canon can do that, I will be a first day buyer.


Well, it definitely won't be 6-7fps, but you'll get the better ISO noise and AF system no doubt. USB3 would be nice, and I don't really care about the 1/4000 or 1/8000 distinction, neither is a critical setting for any action I shoot. I'm pretty happy with 1/1000th in most cases, to get to 1/8000th I'd need a really bright day


----------



## unfocused (Sep 13, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> EYEONE said:
> 
> 
> > I think the 6D has to have a pop up flash. It won't, but it should. The only use a pop up flash is to me is for controlling other external flashes. To me that's a huge deal.
> ...



I'm afraid that with the sudden yanking of the 580EXII and Canon's unwillingness to make a receiver that would allow backward compatibility with the 580 series, we may have seen the last of the infrared triggers through popup flashes. I expect that to be dropped from the 7DII and all future models. 

Not happy about it. I'm usually pretty forgiving of Canon, but their approach on the 600EX-RT was just not very professional when it could have so easily been addressed with an RT-Receiver. Purposely making their previously flagship model flash incompatible when such an easy fix is available is just irresponsible in my book. I'm just waiting for a Chinese company to come out with one. Serves Canon right on this.


----------



## Musouka (Sep 13, 2012)

Even Nikon is using USB2 for the D600 so I doubt Canon would use USB3 for the 6D (Sony is also using USB2 for the A99). 

At least they should make the (dual) SD slot(s) SDXC and UHS compatible + stereo mic for video recording. You will get less control in video but hopefully ML would solve that. Let us hope they won't go back to line-skipping in video, though. This way they can have something to counter the uncompressed video via HDMI feature in the D600.


----------



## cliffwang (Sep 13, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> ashmadux said:
> 
> 
> > Nope, im shooting fashion week with a 'rebel' t2i- this rebel iq whoops 7d booty. Disclaimer- using the t2i because of image quality, and 7d is being retired, ready for trade in. Noisy POS.
> ...


I used to have both T2i and 7D. I also feel the IQ on T2i is better than 7D when the AF is accurate. Most time 7D has really grate/accurate AF, but T2i doesn't.
Don't forget one thing, 7D has new firmware and that might improve the IQ bit. Unfortunately, I have not chance to test the new firmware out.


----------



## RLPhoto (Sep 13, 2012)

ashmadux said:


> verysimplejason said:
> 
> 
> > shannon76 said:
> ...



7D > T2i in everything.


----------



## preppyak (Sep 13, 2012)

cliffwang said:


> Don't forget one thing, 7D has new firmware and that might improve the IQ bit. Unfortunately, I have not chance to test the new firmware out.


That's not really gonna improve IQ, as it doesn't affect the sensor or how the image is written. Maybe if you shoot all .jpg it could help a little with how it processes it, but for RAW files, Id be stunned if there is a difference. It was more an improvement on burst rate and some video features.

Having used the T2i, T3i, and 60D, the IQ is the same in all of them if I was shooting the same scene. Haven't used the 7D, but I can't see why it would differ


----------



## Zlatko (Sep 13, 2012)

K-amps said:


> Looks like you are carrying a peeve from our disagreement on the 24-70 thread.
> 
> No one said that the 5D3 was not a good blend/ all round camera, I own one myself. But I still think they Milked me and you.


I'm not carrying a peeve. I do think we have a philosophical disagreement on both of these products.

It is clear that camera manufacturers (not just Canon) introduce products at elevated prices to take advantage of early adopters. This is true in many areas of commerce. The subsequent decline in price is a form of variable pricing, which increases profit by attracting buyers at different price levels at different times. Those who have an immediate need are willing to pay more. Those who don't have an immediate need are willing to wait and save some money. But there is nothing wrong with this. No doubt, the 5D3 has some extra introductory "load" in the pricing. It will eventually fall in price like most cameras do.

However, other than that introductory bump in price, I don't think we have any basis to say the 5D3 is overpriced for what it offers. It's not a fungible substitute for the D800, so why should it be the same price? It is likely that if Canon had to target the 5D3 for a lower selling price, then it would have been a lesser camera in some details, and then people would have complained that it should have been better. I can't prove that, but I think it stands to reason.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2012)

preppyak said:


> Having used the T2i, T3i, and 60D, the IQ is the same in all of them if I was shooting the same scene. Haven't used the 7D, but I can't see why it would differ



See, the thing is, I bought one of those bottles of Guinness on sale, and it was a buck cheaper than the other one that I paid full price. The cheaper one tastes better. It does. Trust me.


----------



## cptobvious (Sep 13, 2012)

$2100 is low enough to pressure Canon to release the 6D more quickly, but not enough to drop the price on the 5D2. I'm on the fence right now without a camera, looking for the best FF I can get for under $1500. The pipe dream of a $1500 D600 is gone, so I'm hoping (but not expecting) that a discontinued/refurbished 5D2 or D700 will pop up around that price by Black Friday/Christmastime. However, the D700 sold out so quickly at $2000 that I think it'll be a long wait. I may just have to return to the old 5D.


----------



## RLPhoto (Sep 13, 2012)

cptobvious said:


> $2100 is low enough to pressure Canon to release the 6D more quickly, but not enough to drop the price on the 5D2. I'm on the fence right now without a camera, looking for the best FF I can get for under $1500. The pipe dream of a $1500 D600 is gone, so I'm hoping (but not expecting) that a discontinued/refurbished 5D2 or D700 will pop up around that price by Black Friday/Christmastime. However, the D700 sold out so quickly at $2000 that I think it'll be a long wait. I may just have to return to the old 5D.



You can get FF digital cameras for 700$. :


----------



## preppyak (Sep 13, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> See, the thing is, I bought one of those bottles of Guinness on sale, and it was a buck cheaper than the other one that I paid full price. The cheaper one tastes better. It does. Trust me.


haha...but the one I paid for price for has a swing top, so its cooler!


----------



## meli (Sep 13, 2012)

FunkyCamera said:


> Half plastic, overpriced, usual Nikon poor image quality, very inaccurate autofocus... don't know why they even bothered. Pointless gimmick camera. Bit I guess they'll just bribe dxo to give it 10x the score it deserves again.


funny world you're living in mate


----------



## stabmasterasron (Sep 13, 2012)

meli said:


> FunkyCamera said:
> 
> 
> > Half plastic, overpriced, usual Nikon poor image quality, very inaccurate autofocus... don't know why they even bothered. Pointless gimmick camera. Bit I guess they'll just bribe dxo to give it 10x the score it deserves again.
> ...



Yeah, that is funny. I miss you guys. I have not been on this forum in a few months because I sold all my Canon gear and bought a d7000. But I see it is as caustic as ever on here. I don't worry about specs and dxoMark scores and all of that stuff any more, I am just have a wonderful time shooting with my miraculous d7000. I hope the d600 is just as good. But I won't be buying one any time soon, I am happy with what I have.


----------



## cliffwang (Sep 13, 2012)

preppyak said:


> cliffwang said:
> 
> 
> > Don't forget one thing, 7D has new firmware and that might improve the IQ bit. Unfortunately, I have not chance to test the new firmware out.
> ...


I think firmware might help IQ. If you are taking picture on the same place, light, and same setting, yes I believe the IQ from T2i, T3i, 60D, and 7D will be no different. However, the newer firmware might be a little smarter for its lighting optimizer. Another probability is like neur mentioned, tastes. I really cannot tell. Technically their IQ should be same, but I just feel they are slight different. Anyway, 7D was my favorite camera before I got 5D3.


----------



## daniel_charms (Sep 13, 2012)

stabmasterasron said:


> Yeah, that is funny. I miss you guys. I have not been on this forum in a few months because I sold all my Canon gear and bought a d7000. But I see it is as caustic as ever on here. I don't worry about specs and dxoMark scores and all of that stuff any more, I am just have a wonderful time shooting with my miraculous d7000. I hope the d600 is just as good. But I won't be buying one any time soon, I am happy with what I have.



The real joke here is that I checked Nikonrumors earlier today and the people here seem positively ecstatic about the d600 compared to that crowd.


----------



## stabmasterasron (Sep 13, 2012)

daniel_charms said:


> stabmasterasron said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, that is funny. I miss you guys. I have not been on this forum in a few months because I sold all my Canon gear and bought a d7000. But I see it is as caustic as ever on here. I don't worry about specs and dxoMark scores and all of that stuff any more, I am just have a wonderful time shooting with my miraculous d7000. I hope the d600 is just as good. But I won't be buying one any time soon, I am happy with what I have.
> ...



Yes, it's a lot like when the 5dmkiii dropped. The rest of the photographic would was pretty excited. I checked in here and there were multiple forum threads about how much it sucked and how Canon dropped the ball. I guess you can't make everyone happy. You could offer the 1Dx for $5 and someone would complain about how big it is (thats what she said).


----------



## brianleighty (Sep 13, 2012)

cptobvious said:


> $2100 is low enough to pressure Canon to release the 6D more quickly, but not enough to drop the price on the 5D2. I'm on the fence right now without a camera, looking for the best FF I can get for under $1500. The pipe dream of a $1500 D600 is gone, so I'm hoping (but not expecting) that a discontinued/refurbished 5D2 or D700 will pop up around that price by Black Friday/Christmastime. However, the D700 sold out so quickly at $2000 that I think it'll be a long wait. I may just have to return to the old 5D.


If you're willing to get a kit and sell the 24-105 for around $800 then you can have something pretty close to that. I got a 5D mark ii for $2400 with the 24-105. I said was going to sell the lens to my wife and then I just ended up keeping it


----------



## brianleighty (Sep 13, 2012)

I've noticed several people mention the 6D having 2 card slots. I think this is DEFINITELY a feature that will be missing. It's an easy way to differentiate between it and the Mark iii plus if it's really trying to get the entry level ff market then most people upgrading will only be used to one slot while those that are using it for a 2nd body will realize that's the cost of saving some money or if it's really important to them then they'll go get a 5d mark iii.


----------



## distant.star (Sep 13, 2012)

.
I don't smoke anything, never have, but I have seen the same better IQ from my T2i compared to a 7D. The low ISO noise on a 7D is unacceptable to me.

Sure, it's subjective. Sure, it's anecdotal. But ash is not alone in his experience with Canon products. And none of my experience has been influenced by chemistry.





neuroanatomist said:


> ashmadux said:
> 
> 
> > Nope, im shooting fashion week with a 'rebel' t2i- this rebel iq whoops 7d booty. Disclaimer- using the t2i because of image quality, and 7d is being retired, ready for trade in. Noisy POS.
> ...


----------



## verysimplejason (Sep 14, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> verysimplejason said:
> 
> 
> > I know the difference isn't that much, but there it is.
> ...



Reds are a little bit worse in 650D because of the on-chip noise reduction (digic 5) applied by newer versions of Canon. But 650D improved in their DR department even if it is still a little bit below Nikon. Anyway, it's true, AFMA is also one of reasons I want to go to FF aside from the fact that you can get a far better IQ with FF. I am also looking at Canon's entry level FF body. As of now, I have problems shooting with the 28mm F1.8 wide open (I know with the 28, it's not recommended. You need at least F2.2 to get sharper results). But I can get sharper pictures using the live-view with manual focus. I am fortunate with my 50mm and 100mm that they are very sharp copies. If Canon omits it with 6D, you're getting the feeling that they are not taking care of their advance enthusiasts. I might opt for 5D2 or 5D3 then which is of course a pain. One too old (it might be very hard to get a new one) and one over-spec'd for me (though it's a good thing) but pricey.


----------



## Aglet (Sep 14, 2012)

distant.star said:


> .. I have seen the same better IQ from my T2i compared to a 7D. The low ISO noise on a 7D is unacceptable to me.



60D also has more pleasant low ISO noise characteristic than the 7D; much less banding.
7D's sensor is similar to, but different from the other cameras. It utilizes a dual data readout for more fps.

You have to ETTR on the 7D to get the best out of it, a bit counterproductive for a "fast" camera.


----------



## aznable (Sep 14, 2012)

cliffwang said:


> I used to have both T2i and 7D. I also feel the IQ on T2i is better than 7D when the AF is accurate. Most time 7D has really grate/accurate AF, but T2i doesn't.
> Don't forget one thing, 7D has new firmware and that might improve the IQ bit. Unfortunately, I have not chance to test the new firmware out.



you are right, the raw output from 550D/t2i looks a little sharper than the one of 7d, subtle difference anyway


----------



## verysimplejason (Sep 14, 2012)

aznable said:


> cliffwang said:
> 
> 
> > I used to have both T2i and 7D. I also feel the IQ on T2i is better than 7D when the AF is accurate. Most time 7D has really grate/accurate AF, but T2i doesn't.
> ...



Maybe there's a problem with how the Dual Digic 4 process the raw file. Somehow, it gets more complicated when you use a dual chip. Even ML can't get through it that they can't offer support on 7D.

http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/7D_support


----------



## moreorless (Sep 14, 2012)

brianleighty said:


> I've noticed several people mention the 6D having 2 card slots. I think this is DEFINITELY a feature that will be missing. It's an easy way to differentiate between it and the Mark iii plus if it's really trying to get the entry level ff market then most people upgrading will only be used to one slot while those that are using it for a 2nd body will realize that's the cost of saving some money or if it's really important to them then they'll go get a 5d mark iii.



I think you could well be right and that the D600 and the 6D end up actually going after very different markets. The D600 to me looks much more a response to the 5D3 than it does an entry level model while Canon obviously have no need to come up with another camera in that area.

Could turn out to be smart business by Canon I'd say since I think price comes a much larger issue for entry level models. At that level giving up dial card slots, some FPS and AF performance on the D600 to save £500ish on a 6D would probabley be a popular choice.


----------



## verysimplejason (Sep 14, 2012)

moreorless said:


> brianleighty said:
> 
> 
> > I've noticed several people mention the 6D having 2 card slots. I think this is DEFINITELY a feature that will be missing. It's an easy way to differentiate between it and the Mark iii plus if it's really trying to get the entry level ff market then most people upgrading will only be used to one slot while those that are using it for a 2nd body will realize that's the cost of saving some money or if it's really important to them then they'll go get a 5d mark iii.
> ...


----------



## Bruce Photography (Sep 14, 2012)

marinien said:


> No AF micro adjust. Max flash sync 1/200s. Max shutter speed 1/4000s.
> For the price, I would get the D700 instead. Better everything (for me) except (arguably) the sensor.



Where did you get the "No AF Micro Adjust"? I'm assuming the D600 will have the same feature as the D800 which is very good. I've used 12 to 13 MP cameras (5D) and then I've used the 5DII and the 5DIII. I can tell you the difference is huge. I can also say that the sensor on the D800 is amazing. Both in terms of resolution and dynamic range. Canon needs to step up their game and not just their prices. The over $10,000 price of the super tels is way out of line. Just my opinion as a 500mm F4 IS lens user that I bought over two years ago for about $6,000. The new ones are sharper and somewhat lighter but not to justify the over $10,000 price.


----------



## Bruce Photography (Sep 14, 2012)

Bruce Photography said:


> marinien said:
> 
> 
> > No AF micro adjust. Max flash sync 1/200s. Max shutter speed 1/4000s.
> ...



I just checked the spec sheet on the Nikon USA website: Autofocus Fine Tune Yes .


----------



## cliffwang (Sep 14, 2012)

Bruce Photography said:


> Bruce Photography said:
> 
> 
> > marinien said:
> ...


Looks you are right. Someone got the confirm from Nikon that D600 has Fine Tune +/-20.

http://photocamel.com/forum/nikon-forum/168715-nikon-d600-does-have-auto-focus-fine-tuning.html


----------



## Marsu42 (Sep 14, 2012)

Aglet said:


> 60D also has more pleasant low ISO noise characteristic than the 7D; much less banding.



The banding problem seems to vary strongly across different 7d samples, don't know why. For 7d banding, look here: http://a2bart.com/tech/allcamdknz.htm (also look at 5d3 vs d800 ... but of course this is shown by raising shadows excessively).


----------



## verysimplejason (Sep 14, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > 60D also has more pleasant low ISO noise characteristic than the 7D; much less banding.
> ...



It seems this is becoming a 7D gripe thread.


----------



## Marsu42 (Sep 14, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> It seems this is becoming a 7D gripe thread.



... not my intention, but you're correct it's off-topic - I just wanted to provide the test link and state that not every 7d has that unbelievable catastrophic banding (wupps ). No, really, with proper exposure the differences across the 18mp sensors should be unnoticeable, they all have very high noise levels w/ iso800+ when raising shadows and not using ettr.



Bruce Photography said:


> Where did you get the "No AF Micro Adjust"? I'm assuming the D600 will have the same feature as the D800



Cutting afma from a $2000+ camera body surely is only something Canon would consider?! Well, obviously I'm still extremely annoyed they disabled it in the 60d firmware (the compiler macro to disable it is "#define DISABLE_AFMA_PROTECT_7D_HAHAHA_IN_YOUR_FACE_USERS 1").

Canon: Now would be a good time to release a 60d firmware 2.0 with afma re-enabled, will you?


----------



## aznable (Sep 14, 2012)

Bruce Photography said:


> marinien said:
> 
> 
> > No AF micro adjust. Max flash sync 1/200s. Max shutter speed 1/4000s.
> ...



dpreview.com stated that MAFA was a missing feature


----------



## nicku (Sep 14, 2012)

I use canon SLR's Film and Digital for more than 10 years.... BUT in the last one an half years Nikon is wiping the floor with Canon in terms of semipro and pro cameras... In terms of resolution, IQ, features, diversity AND MOST IMPORTANT *PRICE*. I know Canon L series is over Nikon top lens in terms of quality and diversity.

After 10 years of using Canon gear and last 2 years for professional photography i really considering switching to Nikon if Canon will not respond ( and i don't mean especially to Nikon D600 ) to Nikon. By this i mean by introducing a affordable entry lvl FF, a significant drop in price regarding 5D3 and an entry lvl sports/wildlife crop sensor ( called 7DMk2) with improved IQ. 

Regarding the new Nikon D600..... two words: *WELL DONE* Nikon , no comment.


----------



## verysimplejason (Sep 14, 2012)

aznable said:


> Bruce Photography said:
> 
> 
> > marinien said:
> ...



DPREVIEW got it wrong.

http://mansurovs.com/nikon-d600-limitations?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nikon-d600-limitations
http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/spec.htm

Autofocus
Nikon Multi-CAM 4800 autofocus sensor module with TTL phase detection, *fine-tuning*, 39 focus points (including 9 cross-type sensors; the center 33 points are available at apertures slower than f/5.6 and faster than f/8, while the center 7 points are available at f/8), and AF-assist illuminator (range approx. 0.5 to 3 m/1 ft 8 in. to 9 ft 10 in.)


----------



## nicku (Sep 14, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> aznable said:
> 
> 
> > Bruce Photography said:
> ...



Another big *+*


----------



## verysimplejason (Sep 14, 2012)

and focusing @F/8...


----------



## Musouka (Sep 14, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> and focusing @F/8...



Well, you can always use Kenko ;D

Bird Photography Equipment – Teleconverters for 7D and 5D MIII


----------



## CharlieB (Sep 14, 2012)

nicku said:


> Two years of making your living with cameras, Canon cameras, and you will sell them all, reinvest in another type of equipment because they wont respond in the ways you stated?
> 
> After two years, I certainly hope any investment you have in Canon equipment has long since paid for itself many times over... I'm trying to rationale the business decision on this....


----------



## Marsu42 (Sep 14, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> 39 focus points (including 9 cross-type sensors; the center 33 points are available at apertures slower than f/5.6 and faster than f/8, while the center 7 points are available at f/8), and AF-assist illuminator (range approx. 0.5 to 3 m/1 ft 8 in. to 9 ft 10 in.)



... +1 for the af assist light on the d600 Canon cut from the 5d3 so you need a $500+ 600rt flash to do that. All in all absolutely impressive I regret to say as a Canon shooter, but since Magic Lantern or other 3rd party firmware doesn't run on Nikon I still wouldn't want to switch.


----------



## verysimplejason (Sep 14, 2012)

Musouka said:


> verysimplejason said:
> 
> 
> > and focusing @F/8...
> ...



LOL!


----------



## AmbientLight (Sep 14, 2012)

CharlieB said:


> [
> I know Canon L series is over Nikon top lens in terms of quality and diversity.
> 
> After 10 years of using Canon gear and last 2 years for professional photography i really considering switching to Nikon if Canon will not respond.....by introducing a affordable entry lvl FF, a significant drop in price regarding 5D3 and an entry lvl sports/wildlife crop sensor ( called 7DMk2) with improved IQ
> ...



+1

Like anyone with a 5D or 1D X or 1Ds or whatever full-frame body you shoot with will want to switch to Nikon, because they bring out a new entry level full-frame body. This is only significant for Nikon shooters wanting to switch to a cheaper full-frame body. If you have Canon lenses, there is no point in changing systems just for that. If you are invested in the likes of Nikon D800 or D3/D4, there is also not a big impact by a new entry-level camera. Perhaps you might consider it as a backup camera, but so what?


----------



## meli (Sep 15, 2012)

AmbientLight said:


> Like anyone with a 5D or 1D X or 1Ds or whatever full-frame body you shoot with will want to switch to Nikon, because they bring out a new entry level full-frame body. This is only significant for Nikon shooters wanting to switch to a cheaper full-frame body. If you have Canon lenses, there is no point in changing systems just for that. If you are invested in the likes of Nikon D800 or D3/D4, there is also not a big impact by a new entry-level camera. Perhaps you might consider it as a backup camera, but so what?


I doubt its just for nikon shooters, its a really well round package with a few really sweet adds(dual sd, spotlinked meter, flash, F8 etc) that its bound to interest everyone in the market for FF. Obviously not the guy with 5k+ on canon lenses but definitely Aps-c and 1st and/or 2nd gen FF users who cant afford or dont want to spend 3k+ on a new camera


----------



## funkboy (Sep 15, 2012)

An interesting unintended side-effect of bundling even mid-range DSLRs with crappy kit lenses (in the interest of keeping price down) is that there's no system "lock-in" for the folks that bought the bundles. A 60D user with only the 18-55 lens is a lot more likely to just sell the whole thing & move to another brand than someone with a Rebel that loves her lens(es) & wants a better camera, even if she only owns one optic...


----------



## simonxu11 (Sep 16, 2012)

D600 ISO performance test against D700, pretty good to me.
http://fotospekter.si/primerjava-med-nikonom-d700-in-d600-pri-razlicnih-iso-vrednostih/


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## K-amps (Sep 17, 2012)

dilbert said:


> I think we can see how Canon will respond - with a very forgetful camera.



+1

And your Sir are now an Honorary CR Prophet !


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## JohanCruyff (Feb 9, 2013)

Did anybody predict that Nikon would beat Canon in everything including dust?


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## sandymandy (Feb 9, 2013)

Nikon sales still went down -19%


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## wsmith96 (Feb 9, 2013)

The part I think is neat is that the video could be shot using either dx or fx format. That type of functionality would be great if canon could use its software to control the sensor size to either be FF or aps-c on an actual FF sensor. That would allow beginners a smooth transition to a FF camera while allowing them usage of any existing lens that they have. I'm sure there would have to be trade offs such as 24mp FF or when using apsc mode it would be 12 or 15 mp. Even better would be for the camera software to recognize the lens and switch automatically so that there aren't any mistakes when photographing. 

This could open up a ton of demand. Further thinking, this would allow canon to reduce the number of sensors that they have to make. People love to hack. Could you imagine if canon put these sensors in the rebel line but locked them down to apsc size? You would develop huge community of people that would learn how to jail break their camera just like an iPhone to get the FF capability. It wouldn't matter to canon because the cost of the sensor has already been taken in account with the initial sale of the camera, but the camera would still be limited by the af/IQ of the rebels. Prosumers and pros would still buy the higher end cameras and canon would be in a better position to sell glass which is where it makes most of its money anyway. People like to tinker with things like that, just look at majic lantern. If you jail break your camera, you would still need to buy ef lenses to use the sensor size.....


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