# hello, and another request for suggestions



## wellfedCanuck (Jul 23, 2011)

Gentleman (and presumably, some ladies as well)- a quick hello and thank you for the information and opinions you provide here. As a non-professional photographer, I donâ€™t intend to litter your forum with stupid questions but Iâ€™ve been lurking and learning what I can. My only Canon camera is a Rebel XT that Iâ€™ve had for 6 years along with 2 lens including an EF 75-300IS.

The time has come to upgrade that camera and Iâ€™ve been considering either the 60D or 7D. As an airline pilot who also rents Cessnas recreationally- much of my photography is aerial. I often shoot from a platform that can be moving as fast as 500mph across the ground with closure rates that are double that. Another hobby is running half-marathons and the camera, either in my hands or with friends/family, would be shooting races in inclement weather.

Iâ€™d originally thought that the 60D was my next camera but have read many opinions here about the 7Dâ€™s AF prowess and it being a serious camera for sports photographers. Although I really should take a course or two, my work has been complimented by professional photographers and Iâ€™ve actually sold a couple shots. The potential is there to take my hobby up a level and Iâ€™d like to leave room for that when purchasing gear... 

Opinions?


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## Fleetie (Jul 23, 2011)

It sounds as though you feel the need... the need for speed.

On that basis, I'd suggest the 7D. 

But it is heavy, and you won't be running any half-marathons with it.

The 7D claims to have weather-sealing, whereas, IIRC, the 60D does not. Also, the 7D has AF Microadjust, to allow you fine-tune the AF on your lenses, and again, the 60D does not.


Martin


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## Flake (Jul 24, 2011)

I'd suggest the Canon G12 or soon to be released G13 which will give excellent results and can be operated one handed easily. Only the 1D series cameras & L lenses are fully sealed, so you should take precautions when using them in the rain, a simple clear polythene bag will do with a hole cut for the lens.

This is a camera which many Pros like to use as a carry round, it even has a hotshoe, and optical viewfinder.


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## dr croubie (Jul 24, 2011)

I'd always thought the 60D was sealed, just not as good
(i've seen the quotes a lot 1D/s>7D>5D>60D in levels of sealing).

ok, i've just found at Canon UK, the footnote at the bottom says:
"Water/ Dust Resistance YesÂ¹"
"Water/ Dust Resistance Â¹Memory card and battery door only"

So yeah, it's not the best, but it's better than nothing. Sealed L Lenses will help a bit, i wouldn't be taking it out in downpours in any case though.

And owning a 7D+15-85, i wouldn't be running with that. not even with a 100g niftyfifty attached. I probably wouldn't even try with anything bigger than 1000D+50/1.8 (but then, that's me, i wouldn't make a mini-marathon carrying nothing, let alone camera). Giving it to family (watching on the sidelines) would be an idea, if it rains they can always stick it under an umbrella...

as for the plane, any camera would be good, i'd be more springing for a good IS lens. i'd be not recommending the 15-85 for this, unless you can use 2 hands: after 6 months mine has decided its zoom-ring is not enough to stop it creeping out or in when it's held vertically (i'll presume you're taking shots straight downwards). Too bad there's no good IS-enabled wide-primes for that job...

Overall, the 7D is a lot more camera than the 60D, especially for the AF and FPS speed, AF microadjust is a very good feature too. But for 6-year old lenses, you'll be held back a bit by slow AF motors (what are your other lenses btw?).
Hanging a camera out the side of a plane, pointing downwards, would be a very good use for the twisty-screen though (unless you take through a perpsex floor, or hang your head out to focus too?)


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 24, 2011)

For aerial photography, the larger the sensor, the better. You can do it with any camera, of course, but its like landscape, a landscape type camera works best. You also want accurate autofocus to get the fine details. The 5D MK II has the most accurate autofocus, not the fastest, but the most accurate of the non 1 series cameras.

I just purchased my second 7D, it arrived Friday, the first one I bought when they first came out, and it went right back due to performance for the price. This one cost a lot less, but performs about the same.

My 5D MK II is hard to beat, except it is not for fast moving sports. and I was thinking of selling my 1D MK III to get a new body when they are announced.

I took the new 7D to a local rodeo last night, unfortunately, there was a six ft high fence which I could not avoid, and lighting was abysmal. The 7D is definitely not a extreme low light camera., I kept cranking up the ISO, clear up to 5000 for the last 20 minutes. Those photos were pretty much hosed, I'll have to see if any at ISO 3200 were usable. This one may go back for a 1D MK IV.


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## awinphoto (Jul 24, 2011)

Like others said, I wouldn't take any dslr running with u unless you like bruises from it banging the side of your body. I've heard pilot/aviation photogs that shoot while flying saying IS on lenses is worthless cause all the vibration and the only way to work around it is shutterspeed. The 7d has a much better af than the 60d. In good to ok light the 7d will have better af than the 5d. In lowlight it can be a wash. I hear a lot of pros that say the 5d af in lowlight is shoot and pray, but it also depends on the speed the the lens using. 2.8 lenses will give better af than 5.6 lenses.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 24, 2011)

awinphoto said:


> I hear a lot of pros that say the 5d af in lowlight is shoot and pray, but it also depends on the speed the the lens using. 2.8 lenses will give better af than 5.6 lenses.



Too bad they do not own one. The 5d MK II AF is better than the 7D, the 1D MK III, and the 1D MK IV in low light. I have a 1D MK III and a 7D, as well as a 5D MK III, the 1D is close, but not quite up to it. The 7D can't even take a decent image at ISO 6400, much less focus.


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## wellfedCanuck (Jul 24, 2011)

Thanks for the advice, guys. Just to be clear on this, tho, nobody takes cameras running. The camera, either in my hands or those of a friend/family member, would be on the sidelines. ;D


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## awinphoto (Jul 25, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > I hear a lot of pros that say the 5d af in lowlight is shoot and pray, but it also depends on the speed the the lens using. 2.8 lenses will give better af than 5.6 lenses.
> ...



Well just throwing the lens advice out there for consideration for future purchases. Regarding the 7d in low light, I can at least say the af with good lenses is good up to 1600-3200. Iso has minor noise that easily is taken care of with NR and or other means. I shoot 100% professionally and really don't get all the hate on it's ISO compared to other cameras in this price bracket and the 5d. The AF is very good (for me) in low light. It's up to individual expectations and experience level.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 25, 2011)

I was out to a rodeo last night, early in the evening, the sun was up a little, and I could use ISO 400 or 800. Then as the sun went down and it kept getting darker, I kept crankiong up ISO and lowering shutter speed. the lighting was miserable, Eventually, I had to switch to my 85mm and shoot at f/1.8 IOS 3200, and then at 4000. 

The noise in the images was horrible comapared to what I am used to with my 5D MK II at those ISO settings, even my 1D MK III is a little better. 
Here is a photo of a friend performing, the noise is poor at ISO 3200 and outrageous at ISO 4000. AF was OK, but then this not really low light, its merely that I need high shutter speeds for the movement.

ISO 800 is pretty good, but I still had to use NR







ISO 1600 Is ok, but not great






ISO 3200






ISO 4000





I think its a matter of what you have come to expect.


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## ions (Jul 25, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The 5d MK II AF is better than the 7D,



First time I've read that online. It's wrong. Very. The 7D is a better camera than the 5DII in every way except for the sensor.

Also wanted to add this video in reference to 7D weather sealing. He showers it. Literally.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 25, 2011)

ions said:


> The 7D is a better camera than the 5DII in every way.



That's wrong. Very. Oh, wait - that's not what you said, exactly? Try reading (and more importantly, quoting) the whole statement.



ions said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > The 5d MK II AF is better than the 7D,
> ...



What was originally stated was:


Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The 5d MK II AF is better than the 7D, the 1D MK III, and the 1D MK IV in low light.



See the difference? :

As someone who own both (as Mt Spokane Photography also does), I can certainly confirm that the 5DII AF outperforms the 7D in very low light - at least, the center AF point of the 5DII does. The 5DII can lock focus at light levels where the 7D just hunts unsuccessfully, and with a Speedlite attached, the 7D is much more likely to activate the AF assist lamp.


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## ions (Nov 19, 2011)

Ok, conceded. The 5DII has a better sensor and can focus at the centre point better than the 7D. It's been a while so I can't remember exactly why I only quoted part of the sentence. Looking back at it is this "The 7D can't even take a decent image at ISO 6400, much less focus." that gets my goat cause I have no problem with it at that setting. Not that I do much with it at that setting. My response was also based on the tendency of people in this site to froth at the mouth for full frame, particularly in 7D v 5D/II contexts, when the 7D is a more versatile camera in many more ways than either of those are better than the 7D. All are great cameras. But you're right, in an effort to make that point I quoted unfairly.


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## TexPhoto (Nov 19, 2011)

Opinions:

1. If the money is not a significant deal breaker, buy the 7D, it's awesome. A pro sports camera hiding in a pro-sumer body. 60D is a great choice too, and it does have that cool pivoting screen.

2. Put your question for the forum at the beginning, and in the title. Seriously, not to be a jerk, but your subject needs to be something like "60D or 7D for Aerial photos." You will get more and better responses. 

3. Lenses are more important in this equation than bodies. You should be looking at a 70-200 2.8. Canon's are great, new or used as are Sigmas. Choice is as much a $ question as anything else.


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## RC (Nov 19, 2011)

Just my two cents from someone less experienced than many others

I bought my 7D a year ago this last fall and absolutely love it. I waited almost a year for the successor to the 50D to be released ( 60D) to make my choice between the two. I was very disappointed with the specs of the 60D when it was released. I ordered my 7D a few days later. 

Some features that influenced my choice of a 7D over the 60D:

-	7Dâ€™s AF system
-	Micro Adjust (as explained in an earlier response)
-	Magnesium body
-	Weather sealing
-	Frames per second
-	Ergonomics and button layout (quick control dial specifically and I do not like all those presets on the mode dial)


This is my first digital SLR so I do not have first-hand comparison between other bodies. (There are plenty of experts on this site who can provide all that.) I shoot RAW at the highest quality and sharpness settings, ISO is usually at or below 400, and I am thrilled with the image qualityâ€”of course the key to that excellent glass.

Going from a Rebel to a 7D (or 60D) will feel heavy and huge until you get used to it. On the other hand, when I pick up a Rebel it feels too crowded and small. I love the way the 7D feels in my hands.

Good luck with your decision


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## wellfedCanuck (Nov 20, 2011)

Hey, thanks for resurrecting my thread. 

I've been lurking here ever since that post and have learned quite a bit from the forum regulars. (One of those things was not to link to a controversial opinion piece, but that's another story...)

I've ended up sitting out the upgrade both for financial reasons (made another big non-photo purchase) and to wait and see what happens to the 7D & 5D lines.


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## koolman (Nov 20, 2011)

The 7d will not give you much more IQ then the rebel you have. Additionally its large and heavy.

In your place - I would either wait - or get a 60d.


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## briansquibb (Nov 20, 2011)

koolman said:


> The 7d will not give you much more IQ then the rebel you have. Additionally its large and heavy.



Are you suggesting a Rebel XT is as good as a 7D?


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## wellfedCanuck (Nov 20, 2011)

koolman said:


> The 7d will not give you much more IQ then the rebel you have. Additionally its large and heavy.
> 
> In your place - I would either wait - or get a 60d.


Well, as someone else pointed out- my Rebel is an 8MP XT, so pretty much anything would be an upgrade from that. But, additionally- I've missed a lot of really great air-to-air shots because the autofocus can't handle closure rates of 1100 mph. In fact, I got lucky with the manual focus a few years back for a Discovery launch as I passed Cape Canaveral at 35,000 ft... will try to upload that photo here.


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## handsomerob (Nov 20, 2011)

that's a nice shot, thanks for sharing. I find it quite more interesting than the regular lift-off shots.

btw, what are you photographing exactly from that platform that requires fast AF? whatever it is, 7D will sure do the job. you'll also be able to crop freely since it offers a lot more pixels than your current body.


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## wickidwombat (Nov 23, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > I hear a lot of pros that say the 5d af in lowlight is shoot and pray, but it also depends on the speed the the lens using. 2.8 lenses will give better af than 5.6 lenses.
> ...



Interesting, My 1D mk3 blows the 5D2's AF into the weeds even shooting in a controlled studio low key i sometimes want to throw the 5 right out the window (if there was a window) the only sensor point worth anything on the 5D is the center point. focus recompose shoot is the only way to do it, I think i'm going to get the EG-S focusing screen and use MF more. The AF on the 1D3 clearly stomps the 5D2 as in i can use any of the 19 selectable points in any light with any of my lenses and achieve focus lock even my 300 f4 with a TC attached focuses better than the 5D2. I really want a 7D replacement with the small form factor to replace my 1D3 to be my go to action camera so it can hopefully share batteries with the 5D mark 2. I must have got a good 1D3 because it has not focus issues that people report. it is a very late model though.


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## briansquibb (Nov 23, 2011)

wickidwombat said:


> The AF on the 1D3 clearly stomps the 5D2 as in i can use any of the 19 selectable points in any light with any of my lenses and achieve focus lock even my 300 f4 with a TC attached focuses better than the 5D2



You are right about off centre focus points on the 5DII. However dont expect a 7D AF to be good in very low light. However the 5DII does lock on very well if there is some contrast change on the subject even in very low light ie dont expect miracles on a uniform object in low light

Old school manual focussing is still the fastest and best way ahead in those circumstances.


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## koolman (Nov 23, 2011)

briansquibb said:


> koolman said:
> 
> 
> > The 7d will not give you much more IQ then the rebel you have. Additionally its large and heavy.
> ...



I am saying that the difference in IQ might not be worth the extra weight and cost.

By the way, I have a rebel t2i. My brother in-law has a 7d. We just spent a few days together on vacation shooting street shots and nature shots. This was my first hands on experience with a 7d. I "played" with it quite allot as we exchanged cameras now and then. I was quite surprised to discover - that it was quite impossible to see any difference AT ALL between the t2i and the 7d as far as IQ! This is comparing a $700 camera to a $1,700 camera!

Of course the 7d focuses faster, is much more rugged, has a larger viewfinder, and shoots much faster fps.

Ironically - I have a close friend with a 60d. Once again - surprise - the 60d in my opinion - has BETTER IQ then both the 7d and the t2i. (Its a newer camera) even though "on paper" its the same 18mp sensor.


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## wellfedCanuck (Nov 23, 2011)

handsomerob said:


> that's a nice shot, thanks for sharing. I find it quite more interesting than the regular lift-off shots.
> 
> btw, what are you photographing exactly from that platform that requires fast AF? whatever it is, 7D will sure do the job. you'll also be able to crop freely since it offers a lot more pixels than your current body.


Thanks, I've tried to UL a larger version to the galleries but ran into some trouble reducing the size of the image. My post-processing skills are even worse than my photographic ability... :-[

I do a fair bit of aerial photography- both from Cessnas and from the jets I fly commercially. Even at the relatively low Cessna speeds shooting landscape- the Rebel's AF is taxed. But even worse are all the great shots of jets crossing paths that I've missed over the years because the relative speeds (TAS of 440-460 knots for each plane) just being too great. 

Some of my colleagues who shoot air races and warbirds swear by the 7D but due to the lack of crossing-traffic type airliner shots on our pilot forums- I suspect that even it can't handle the latter scenario.


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## wellfedCanuck (Dec 24, 2012)

Well, it took me almost 18 months of hanging around here, but finally- here's that upgrade:


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## wellfedCanuck (Dec 25, 2012)

Impressive for the camera's ability to focus and shoot in a very dark room, no flash, 6D 24-105 f4 kit lens, ISO 12,800:


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