# Production of the EOS 5D Mark III Finished? [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 3, 2016)

```
We’re told that some retailers are seeing “ETL” (End of the line) warnings on ordering systems in various parts of the world. In a few places, the estimated arrival time of new Canon EOS 5D Mark III retailer orders has gone from 2 to 5 days and at least one retailer has seen “unknown” for arrival time. Stock levels for the camera have been fine for years, so this change is noticeable.</p>
<p>These sorts of things generally start happening a couple of months ahead of a replacement product announcement, as one of the same sources has said this happened recently with the EOS-1D X, as they started seeing stock availability changes in December.</p>
<p>The time frame in this case puts an announcement coming after NAB 2016 which runs from April 16 – April 21.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## livingunique (Mar 3, 2016)

Exciting stuff. I'll be pre-ordering it, I'm sure.


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## Diltiazem (Mar 4, 2016)

Hope this is true. No fingernails left to bite.


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## rrcphoto (Mar 4, 2016)

or it could be that canon's going to announce it like they did at focus on imaging / photography show 2016 - which is in a few weeks time and like the 5d Mark III, start shipping in april / may.

Keep in mind that the 5D Mark III actually shipped before the 1DX, so it's not as if canon worries about that.

That would make much more sense than NAB. Has canon ever announced a camera at NAB? I'd suspect NAB is when they will do the C500 Mark II, since it's already been speculated that will be their first 8K Cini-EOS.

and if it is - it would certainly be what canon wants to focus on (no pun intended) at NAB.

unless the 5D Mark IV and C500 are 8k cameras


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## wtlloyd (Mar 4, 2016)

You can get a new 5DS, warranted, for $2300 USA. Why would you buy a 5D3?


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## privatebydesign (Mar 4, 2016)

wtlloyd said:


> You can get a new 5DS, warranted, for $2300 USA. Why would you buy a 5D3?


Because you don't want 50MP?


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## Hill Benson (Mar 4, 2016)




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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 4, 2016)

wtlloyd said:


> You can get a new 5DS, warranted, for $2300 USA. Why would you buy a 5D3?



you need a usable RAW buffer for action? more fps? RAW video with various necessarily video usability features, RAW stills histogram (thanks only to ML)


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## H. Jones (Mar 4, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> wtlloyd said:
> 
> 
> > You can get a new 5DS, warranted, for $2300 USA. Why would you buy a 5D3?
> ...


+1

On assignment at the White House this week and Lawrence Jackson was talking about how the White House just got some 5DS to shoot with, but they've been using the 5D3 because the files are so much more manageable day-to-day. And it's not like their memory/computer budget is limited!


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## Hill Benson (Mar 4, 2016)

H. Jones said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > wtlloyd said:
> ...



Agreed. If the 5DS was to be everything the 5DmkIII is but better then it would probably have been named the 5DmkIV.


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## Tiderace (Mar 4, 2016)

We will make graded improvements and make sure to cripple all video components. We are in denial about the shrinking DSLR market. We do not realize that cameras are already producing images of such detail and quality most people cannot see the difference analogous to 4K vs HD on a large TV. 
We are blind to Sony stealing the game away from us in many respects with the A7RII and the FS5 and FS7, and now their lower priced Mirrorless cameras, which are improving rapidly. Oh but our lenses are so fantastic. 

What a shame the dual pixel focus good skin tones and lenses could have been a foundation for massive innovation. NOPE. I bet either no 4K or crippled 4K. and very low bit rate HDMI out and maybe not even with audio. Too bad. Loved Canon for years and years. It is not just for my end of the market I feel sad about it is the shrinking DSLR market in general they are not moving to embrace the changes in this market.


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## H. Jones (Mar 4, 2016)

Tiderace said:


> We will make graded improvements and make sure to cripple all video components. We are in denial about the shrinking DSLR market. We do not realize that cameras are already producing images of such detail and quality most people cannot see the difference analogous to 4K vs HD on a large TV.
> We are blind to Sony stealing the game away from us in many respects with the A7RII and the FS5 and FS7, and now their lower priced Mirrorless cameras, which are improving rapidly. Oh but our lenses are so fantastic.
> 
> What a shame the dual pixel focus good skin tones and lenses could have been a foundation for massive innovation. NOPE. I bet either no 4K or crippled 4K. and very low bit rate HDMI out and maybe not even with audio. Too bad. Loved Canon for years and years. It is not just for my end of the market I feel sad about it is the shrinking DSLR market in general they are not moving to embrace the changes in this market.



Not quite sure what you're talking about, the 5D4 has been widely rumored to have DPAF + 4K along with C-Log, and there's no reason that it won't have HDMI audio. DR is vastly improved as far as I've seen on Canon's newest sensors, so I really don't see how Canon is lacking anywhere in these upcoming cameras.


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## ashmadux (Mar 4, 2016)

Tiderace said:


> We will make graded improvements and make sure to cripple all video components. We are in denial about the shrinking DSLR market. We do not realize that cameras are already producing images of such detail and quality most people cannot see the difference analogous to 4K vs HD on a large TV.
> We are blind to Sony stealing the game away from us in many respects with the A7RII and the FS5 and FS7, and now their lower priced Mirrorless cameras, which are improving rapidly. Oh but our lenses are so fantastic.
> 
> What a shame the dual pixel focus good skin tones and lenses could have been a foundation for massive innovation. NOPE. I bet either no 4K or crippled 4K. and very low bit rate HDMI out and maybe not even with audio. Too bad. Loved Canon for years and years. It is not just for my end of the market I feel sad about it is the shrinking DSLR market in general they are not moving to embrace the changes in this market.



Sad post is sad.   

Man, someone pass this guy some sunshine flakes.

Enjoy your sony i think.


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## slclick (Mar 4, 2016)

Tiderace said:


> We will make graded improvements and make sure to cripple all video components. We are in denial about the shrinking DSLR market. We do not realize that cameras are already producing images of such detail and quality most people cannot see the difference analogous to 4K vs HD on a large TV.
> We are blind to Sony stealing the game away from us in many respects with the A7RII and the FS5 and FS7, and now their lower priced Mirrorless cameras, which are improving rapidly. Oh but our lenses are so fantastic.
> 
> What a shame the dual pixel focus good skin tones and lenses could have been a foundation for massive innovation. NOPE. I bet either no 4K or crippled 4K. and very low bit rate HDMI out and maybe not even with audio. Too bad. Loved Canon for years and years. It is not just for my end of the market I feel sad about it is the shrinking DSLR market in general they are not moving to embrace the changes in this market.



It hasn't been announced, you can put your doomsday party on hold.


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## candc (Mar 4, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> wtlloyd said:
> 
> 
> > You can get a new 5DS, warranted, for $2300 USA. Why would you buy a 5D3?
> ...



That's the thing. its great to have when you want it but you don't always want to be stuck with it. If canon would make a hi res camera that also had higher frame rate and buffer at a lower res then you wouldn't need anything else.


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## YuengLinger (Mar 4, 2016)

Waiting to hear 50mm 1.2 is ETL!

And now back to our topic...The 5DIII will leave huge shoes to fill!


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## x-vision (Mar 4, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> We’re told that some retailers are seeing “ETL” (End of the line) warnings on ordering systems in various parts of the world.



If true, this means that we are likely going to see the 6DII announced this year as well.

The 5DIV is most likely going to be priced at $3200. 
Thus, there will be huge gap between the currently discounted 6D and the brand new 5DIV (5DX?).

Such a gap cannot be maintained for long without loss of business.

Canon could discount the 5DIII to fill this gap until the 6DII arrives (at likely $2200). 
But if they are planning to do that, the 6DII will likely arrive not long after the 5DIV.


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## YuengLinger (Mar 4, 2016)

x-vision said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We’re told that some retailers are seeing “ETL” (End of the line) warnings on ordering systems in various parts of the world.
> ...



Pretty sure Canon has been through this process many times.


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## slclick (Mar 4, 2016)

YuengLinger said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



I guess they read the forum before making any decisions then.


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## TeT (Mar 4, 2016)

Tiderace said:


> We will make graded improvements and make sure to cripple all video components. We are in denial about the shrinking DSLR market. We do not realize that cameras are already producing images of such detail and quality most people cannot see the difference analogous to 4K vs HD on a large TV.
> We are blind to Sony stealing the game away from us in many respects with the A7RII and the FS5 and FS7, and now their lower priced Mirrorless cameras, which are improving rapidly. Oh but our lenses are so fantastic.
> 
> What a shame the dual pixel focus good skin tones and lenses could have been a foundation for massive innovation. NOPE. I bet either no 4K or crippled 4K. and very low bit rate HDMI out and maybe not even with audio. Too bad. Loved Canon for years and years. It is not just for my end of the market I feel sad about it is the shrinking DSLR market in general they are not moving to embrace the changes in this market.



Sad to see you go, don't let the door hit you in the $%&...


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## Woody (Mar 4, 2016)

I am most keen on when and what they'll offer for 6D and SL100 replacements.


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## Perio (Mar 4, 2016)

Do we expect a new 16-35 f2.8iii to come as a kit lens?


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## ahsanford (Mar 4, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> wtlloyd said:
> 
> 
> > You can get a new 5DS, warranted, for $2300 USA. Why would you buy a 5D3?
> ...


Because you want usable ISO 12800 shots.
Because you want burst shooting at higher than 5 fps.
Because you want the 1DX II AF system.
Because you want better pixel level performance than a 7D2.

- A


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## H. Jones (Mar 4, 2016)

Perio said:


> Do we expect a new 16-35 f2.8iii to come as a kit lens?



The 16-35mm isn't much of a kit lens-- it's far too short. I'm not 100% sure what they'd choose as a kit lens, but the 24-70mm F/4 IS could be it.

Or an upgrade to the 24-105mm F4L IS could be interesting. But that's just speculation.


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## ahsanford (Mar 4, 2016)

YuengLinger said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > The 5DIV is most likely going to be priced at $3200.
> ...



The release process? yes.

The release process with 4 price points in FF DSLRs against all kinds of added competition? I don't believe they have.

Remember, Canon is new to a budget/'starter' FF DSLR -- the 6D was their first, was it not? And since that time, the A7 brand took off, Pentax joined the party and Nikon has two formidable lower/mid-level FF rigs that will make it very hard for a nerfed/underfeatured 6D2 from getting $1,800, let alone $2,200. 

So either the 6D2 moves _significantly_ upmarket and starts punching in the middleweight arena like a D750 or Canon will have a hard time maintaining a high price on it. 

- A


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## privatebydesign (Mar 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Because you want usable ISO 12800 shots.


It has been well demonstrated that if you downsample to 5D MkIII pixel levels the 5DS/R outperforms the 5D MkIII at 12800 iso.



ahsanford said:


> Because you want the 1DX II AF system.


Neither the 5D MkIII nor the 5DS/R have the 1D X MkII AF, remember the question was _"You can get a new 5DS, warranted, for $2300 USA. Why would you buy a 5D3?"_



ahsanford said:


> Because you want better pixel level performance than a 7D2.


Do you have anything that shows the pixel level performance of the 5DS/R is worse than the 7D MkII, because that isn't what I understood.


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## ahsanford (Mar 4, 2016)

Perio said:


> Do we expect a new 16-35 f2.8iii to come as a kit lens?



You don't kit an UWA zoom. Online retailers might bundle it together in a special 'package', but Canon would never do that.

And even though the 5D4 will be a high end tool, I don't see a $1,700 - $2,000 lens _ever_ being kitted with it. More likely we'll see it kitted with the mid-level 24-something F/4L IS lens that costs well under < $1k to make.

Now could they *release the 16-35 f/2.8L III _at the same time_ as the 5D4*? _*That* _is entirely possible. Surely, that (or a 24/50/85/135 prime with BR) has got to be one next L lenses we see.

- A


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## Perio (Mar 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Perio said:
> 
> 
> > Do we expect a new 16-35 f2.8iii to come as a kit lens?
> ...



You phrased it more accurately than I did, thank you


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## ahsanford (Mar 4, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Because you want usable ISO 12800 shots.
> ...



Sorry -- I misread the OP. I thought it was "Why buy a 5D4 at $$$$ when you can get a 5DS at $$." My bad. Thanks for the correction.

There's no compelling argument to choose a 5D3 over a 5DS other than +1 fps and lower cost (and perhaps a desire to not fill your memory cards and HDs so quickly). But yes, you are spot on w.r.t. downsampling -- a 5DS is simultaneously a hi-res monster in good light / on a tripod / in a studio *and* a solid low light rig if you downsample.

I still want a 5D4 far far far more than a 5DS on the assumption that we'll see some 1DX II goodness trickle down, we'll get a better sensor, we'll see a higher framerate, etc.

- A


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## scottkinfw (Mar 4, 2016)

:-[


privatebydesign said:


> wtlloyd said:
> 
> 
> > You can get a new 5DS, warranted, for $2300 USA. Why would you buy a 5D3?
> ...



FPS, Focusing, low light performance, a camera for a totally different purpose?

5DIII still an awesome camera, and it will likely be cheaper than a new IV

sek


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## scottkinfw (Mar 4, 2016)

Tiderace said:


> We will make graded improvements and make sure to cripple all video components. We are in denial about the shrinking DSLR market. We do not realize that cameras are already producing images of such detail and quality most people cannot see the difference analogous to 4K vs HD on a large TV.
> We are blind to Sony stealing the game away from us in many respects with the A7RII and the FS5 and FS7, and now their lower priced Mirrorless cameras, which are improving rapidly. Oh but our lenses are so fantastic.
> 
> What a shame the dual pixel focus good skin tones and lenses could have been a foundation for massive innovation. NOPE. I bet either no 4K or crippled 4K. and very low bit rate HDMI out and maybe not even with audio. Too bad. Loved Canon for years and years. It is not just for my end of the market I feel sad about it is the shrinking DSLR market in general they are not moving to embrace the changes in this market.




Thanks for that Debbie Downer.


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## In-The-Dark (Mar 4, 2016)

Woody said:


> I am most keen on when and what they'll offer for 6D and SL100 replacements.



+1 for the 6D replacement with on-chip ADC.



H. Jones said:


> The 16-35mm isn't much of a kit lens-- it's far too short. I'm not 100% sure what they'd choose as a kit lens, but the 24-70mm F/4 IS could be it.
> 
> Or an upgrade to the 24-105mm F4L IS could be interesting. But that's just speculation.



How about EF 28-135 IS USM with f/4.0 constant aperture.


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## -1 (Mar 4, 2016)

x-vision said:


> Canon could discount the 5DIII to fill this gap until the 6DII arrives (at likely $2200).



Dream on! ;-p


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## ahsanford (Mar 4, 2016)

In-The-Dark said:


> How about EF 28-135 IS USM with f/4.0 constant aperture.



Careful what you wish for. Nikon has a 24-120 f/4 VR (i.e. IS) lens like the one you are referring to, but the wheels come off the bus on that thing longer than 70mm or so from what I've read. It's a constant max aperture zoom all right, but you'll still need to stop it down on the longer end.

I'm rather famously against high multiple zooms for IQ reasons (consider I am one of the weirdos who _loves_ the 24-70 f/4L IS USM), but I do respect that folks like the versatility a larger zoom multiple offers. 

- A


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## pwp (Mar 4, 2016)

wtlloyd said:


> You can get a new 5DS, warranted, for $2300 USA. Why would you buy a 5D3?


5Ds is very much a niche camera, very limited for most professionals and high volume enthusiasts who are going to be happiest with a 5D-X/MkIV in the 22-24 Mp range. 

-pw


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## Maiaibing (Mar 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> I'm rather famously against high multiple zooms for IQ reasons (consider I am one of the weirdos who _loves_ the 24-70 f/4L IS USM), but I do respect that folks like the versatility a larger zoom multiple offers.



Smart move IMHO if Canon decided to make 24-70 f/4L IS USM the kit lens instead.


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## JohnUSA (Mar 4, 2016)

-1 said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > Canon could discount the 5DIII to fill this gap until the 6DII arrives (at likely $2200).
> ...



Canon refurbished 5D3 cameras are often in this price range or less.

Edit: $2099.00 - http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/eos-5d-mark-iii-body-refurbished


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## ashmadux (Mar 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > x-vision said:
> ...



D750 is practically a perfectly specc'ed camera, IMHO. I plan to get one as soon as I win the lotto, so i can actually afford it and a good nikon lens.

Wait..why are u guys looking at me like that? Ruh roh...


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## whothafunk (Mar 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Because you want usable ISO 12800 shots.
> Because you want burst shooting at higher than 5 fps.
> Because you want the 1DX II AF system.
> Because you want better pixel level performance than a 7D2.
> ...


Neither 5D3 nor 5DS have 1DX II AF System, so not really sure what you are on about. 6FPS is better than 5, sure, but not so much to write home about. 5DS ISO 12800 downscaled is up there with the 5D3 with even more detail retained + it doesn't have that horrible banding. It supposedly has a somewhat tweaked AF + anti flicker and intelligent VF. 

Neither does the job for me, but if I were in the market for buying, 5DS/5DSR would be my choice by far.


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## Tugela (Mar 4, 2016)

H. Jones said:


> Tiderace said:
> 
> 
> > We will make graded improvements and make sure to cripple all video components. We are in denial about the shrinking DSLR market. We do not realize that cameras are already producing images of such detail and quality most people cannot see the difference analogous to 4K vs HD on a large TV.
> ...



There is also a rumor that the 5D4 has been rebranded as a 6D2. If so, then the original 5D4 concept has been scraped because it would have been to far behind the competition.

My guess is that the 5D4 has been replaced with the 5D5.


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## -1 (Mar 4, 2016)

JohnUSA said:


> -1 said:
> 
> 
> > x-vision said:
> ...



Refurbs are rejected units...


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 4, 2016)

Tiderace said:


> We will make graded improvements and make sure to cripple all video components. We are in denial about the shrinking DSLR market. We do not realize that cameras are already producing images of such detail and quality most people cannot see the difference analogous to 4K vs HD on a large TV.
> We are blind to Sony stealing the game away from us in many respects with the A7RII and the FS5 and FS7, and now their lower priced Mirrorless cameras, which are improving rapidly. Oh but our lenses are so fantastic.
> 
> What a shame the dual pixel focus good skin tones and lenses could have been a foundation for massive innovation. NOPE. I bet either no 4K or crippled 4K. and very low bit rate HDMI out and maybe not even with audio. Too bad. Loved Canon for years and years. It is not just for my end of the market I feel sad about it is the shrinking DSLR market in general they are not moving to embrace the changes in this market.



Bummer, I guess you won't be buying a 5DIV. That's okay, lots of people will – probably far more than will buy Sony FF MILCs. 

It's always amusing when people state or imply that Sony/Olympus/etc. focus on mirrorless because it's innovative or they are 'embracing changes in the market', when in reality they abandoned the dSLR market because they just couldn't compete with Canon and Nikon.


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## tiger82 (Mar 4, 2016)

wtlloyd said:


> You can get a new 5DS, warranted, for $2300 USA. Why would you buy a 5D3?



Because the 5DS sucks in low light, high ISO?


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## slclick (Mar 4, 2016)

-1 said:


> JohnUSA said:
> 
> 
> > -1 said:
> ...



I just woke up to read this. Now is this any way to start your photography day? Please....


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## Memdroid (Mar 4, 2016)

tiger82 said:


> wtlloyd said:
> 
> 
> > You can get a new 5DS, warranted, for $2300 USA. Why would you buy a 5D3?
> ...



Absolutely not true. It cleans up way better than the 5D3 and retains at least double the details with a lot less color noise.


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## jcarapet (Mar 4, 2016)

Looking forward to seeing if they can impress enough for me to think about switching. I am at 40k clicks in a year and a half of a 5d3, so nowhere near needing to replace. Don't even really need more fps though it would be nice.


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## docsmith (Mar 4, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> The time frame in this case puts an announcement coming after NAB 2016 which runs from April 16 – April 21.



Makes sense to me. I fall into the camp of thinking that Canon will want to space out their releases to minimize confusion and cannibalization of sales. 1DX II ships in April. Get all the pre-orders filled by end of April, reviews come out end of April, second wave of sales (those waiting on reviews, blogs, real world use, etc) in May-July. Announce 5D x/IV sometime between June and September with shipping in the early fall. Then release the 6DII with shipping before Christmas to take advantage of the hype that all the preceding releases generated.

Exciting year if this plays out like that. I have money being saved. But my 5DIII really does not leave me wanting for much.


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## JonAustin (Mar 4, 2016)

*Off-topic post #1:*

@ scottkinfw: Re: your signature: "sek Cameras: 5D III, 5D II, EOS M Lenses: 24-70 2.8 II IS, 24-105 f4L, 70-200 f4L IS, 70-200 f2.8L IS II, EF 300 f4L IS, EF 400 5.6L, 300 2.8 IS II, Samyang 14 mm 2.8 Flashes: 600EX-RT X 2, ST-E3-RT"

Where did you find that 24-70 2.8 II IS?


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## JonAustin (Mar 4, 2016)

*Off-topic post #2*



ahsanford said:


> In-The-Dark said:
> 
> 
> > How about EF 28-135 IS USM with f/4.0 constant aperture.
> ...



Agreed. I would like to see Canon replace the 24-105/4L IS (of which I'm on my second copy) with a 24-85 to -96 or so (i.e., 4x or less zoom range) that performs better in the < 35mm and > 70mm FL ranges. Oh, and also with less zoom creep, please. 

Seems like every other day I get the urge to replace my 24-105 with the 24-70/4L IS, but I like the FL pairing of the 24-105 with the 100-400 when hiking. (I know I don't need FL overlap and that a small FL gap wouldn't matter much, but 70-100 seems a bit much.) I also suspect that the week after I buy a 24-70/4L IS, Canon will announce a 24-70/2.8L IS, which I'd really like.


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## Etienne (Mar 4, 2016)

Memdroid said:


> tiger82 said:
> 
> 
> > wtlloyd said:
> ...



With lots of detail on the banding in the shadows. See DPR ... not recommended for low light


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## Big_Ant_TV_Media (Mar 4, 2016)

hopefully we get a announcement april-may with june/july public release next 2-4 months or so will be interesting


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## JonAustin (Mar 4, 2016)

dilbert said:


> Two things. (1) If you use Lightroom it is pretty easy to find out what your most common focal lengths are. (2) If you had of bought the 24-70/f4L IS in *any* week leading up to this current week then Canon would not have announced a "2.8L IS" version the following week. I mean seriously, why do you think Canon's release schedule has anything to do with you or your buying habits? Sooner you buy the 24-70/f4L IS the better. That is if you've got the cash. If you ain't got the cash ...



Dear Mr. Dilbert: re: (1) Yes, thanks, I do use Lightroom and am aware of how to use it to check my FL statistics. Re: (2) Your keen sense of humor must make you the life of every party you attend ...


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## JohnUSA (Mar 4, 2016)

-1 said:


> JohnUSA said:
> 
> 
> > -1 said:
> ...



Geez I hope you are joking! I'm not feeding a troll... Well maybe a little!

Tell that to my problem free refurbished 5D3, after 3 years of use, that it's a reject. My 5D3 had 5 exposures when I received it. Also purchased as refurbished: 5D2, 50D and T2i all problem free.


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## ahsanford (Mar 4, 2016)

Just a general question about a 5D4:

If you own a 5D3 and skipped the 5DS for whatever reason, do you pre-order a 5D4 on day one, or are you waiting for sensor testing first? (Clearly, this is more aimed at the stills camp -- I imagine the video decision is a bit easier to make on day one based on the spec sheet.)

I ask because: on the 5D4, if Canon still hasn't flipped to on-chip ADC like many hope, the 5D4 will likely not be that much better for a DR / High ISO side of things, right? We'd only see very small improvements, right? That may not be worth the upgrade.

I understand there's far far far more to a rig than the sensor, and we'll see really nice improvements elsewhere with the 5D4, but knowing how critical the sensor is, if the 5D3 is your primary rig, do you pre-order on day one or are you playing the wait-and-see game? Very curious to hear your thoughts on this.

- A


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 4, 2016)

I suspect that the replacement has been in production for some time, and its now going to the assembly stage. Production starts a year or two ahead of the new product release because some components take a long time to build and tweak tooling. The firmware is the last piece, and can be tweaked even after a camera model is being assembled.

With new cars, its the same thing, the design is frozen two years ahead of the model release. That means you are always getting a product that was specified quite a while ago. Sony seems to have shortened the production cycle, its risky, but if successful, it can pay off.


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## Hector1970 (Mar 4, 2016)

I'd find the 5DIII much better than than the 5DSR (which I assume is like a 5DS) in low light.
The 5DSR may recover shadows better but the overall quality of the image degrades faster than a 5DIII as the ISO goes up.
I've done alot of side by side shooting with both indoor and the 5DIII produces far more usuable images.
I have the 7D II as well and its perfomance is similar to the 5DSR. It's also poor in low light / high ISO. They have a similar/same? sensor. 
I really only use the 5DSR now outdoor on a tripod at ISO 100. This is it's strength but I find it limited otherwise.
I'd use the 5DIII anytime any place.
If it gets cheap on the arrival of the 5DIV / 5DX I'd highly recommend buying the 5DIII.
It's a great camera that would serve you really well for years.
I don't think you'd be compromising anything. The focusing system is very good. FPS might be slightly limited but its not bad at all. A super all round camera.



Etienne said:


> Memdroid said:
> 
> 
> > tiger82 said:
> ...


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## Etienne (Mar 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Just a general question about a 5D4:
> 
> If you own a 5D3 and skipped the 5DS for whatever reason, do you pre-order a 5D4 on day one, or are you waiting for sensor testing first? (Clearly, this is more aimed at the stills camp -- I imagine the video decision is a bit easier to make on day one based on the spec sheet.)
> 
> ...



I generally wait to see reviews, both technical and field reviews. It would have to be very compelling on paper for me to pre-order ... I have not yet pre-ordered a body or a lens, but I am probably a bit on the conservative side.


----------



## ahsanford (Mar 4, 2016)

Hector1970 said:


> I'd find the 5DIII much better than than the 5DSR (which I assume is like a 5DS) in low light.
> The 5DSR may recover shadows better but the overall quality of the image degrades faster than a 5DIII as the ISO goes up.
> I've done alot of side by side shooting with both indoor and the 5DIII produces far more usuable images.
> I have the 7D II as well and its perfomance is similar to the 5DSR. It's also poor in low light / high ISO. They have a similar/same? sensor.
> ...



This begs one question: when you are comparing the 5DS to the 5D3 in low light, are you downsampling the shots to 22 MP? That reins in the noise considerably.

So if you are not downsampling, the 5D3 should beat the 5DS for low light performance.

If you _are_ downsampling, I've heard everything from 'it's a dead heat' to 'the 5DS is slightly better'.

Or, from Bryan Carnathan at TDP (this passage below is about 1/4 of the way into the review):

_"When compared at native resolutions, 5Ds images are noisier than 5D III images. The differences, especially at higher ISO settings, are less than 1 stop. Down-sized to 5D III pixel dimension (using DPP, see "Standard Down-Sized to 5D III" in noise tool), 5Ds noise levels are essentially equal to full frame 5D III noise levels and even slightly better at the highest ISO settings. So, while Canon is not promoting this camera for its low light capabilities, I see it as one of the best options available with output size being comparable. "_

Parsing his thoughts another way, a 5DS is a high detail monster in good light / tripod / studio conditions where you can keep the ISO low, but when ISO climbs, it's like you switch to "5D3 mode" by downsampling the 50 MP down to 22 and the shots look fine. So, crudely: a 5DS is a high res rig in good conditions and it 'becomes' a 5D3 in poor conditions. That's not a bad thing.

- A


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## Larsskv (Mar 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Hector1970 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd find the 5DIII much better than than the 5DSR (which I assume is like a 5DS) in low light.
> ...



+1!!! I have the 5Ds and agree very much with TDP/Bryan Carnathan. It does very good at higher ISO, as long as you don't pixel peep. At same viewing size it outperforms my older 6D at higher ISO.


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## lightthief (Mar 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Just a general question about a 5D4:
> 
> If you own a 5D3 and skipped the 5DS for whatever reason, do you pre-order a 5D4 on day one, or are you waiting for sensor testing first?
> 
> ...



Hi ashanford,

i will not preorder, because my wife would kill me - i bought my first 5DIII 6 months after the release an the second in march 2015. But i'm very interested in the new one, maybe next year.

A new and better sensor would be fine, but to me, without a big IQ improvment, these things alone are worth the upgrade
- wider spreaded AF-Points (please, not more or make it possible to switch some off)
- DPAF for video and touchscreen to set the focus
- autoISO and max. shutter speed up to 1/8000
- autoISO in M mode with ...blaa, you know what i mean
- 60...90...120 fps fullHD

If i can get this in the 5DIV, i can sell one of my 5DIII and the legria (IQ is fine, AF is very good to me, IS is great, DOF is... jesus, f1.8 at the wide end is equally, when i'm right, f13 on FF) to fund the new one. I want the look of my lenses for video, but my 18 month old son ist faster than me - i need AF.

hmmm, a lot is only firmware. Canons "crippling-small-evolution-marketing-thing" works 

Sorry for my bad english.

lightthief


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## Memdroid (Mar 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Hector1970 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd find the 5DIII much better than than the 5DSR (which I assume is like a 5DS) in low light.
> ...



This is exactly my findings as well with my 5Ds in the ISO 3200-6400 range. I even dare to say that the downsampled noise performance is closer to my 1Dx than to my 5d3, with the added details and crispness to boot! But than*can* be attributed to my processing rather the camera performance.


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## suburbia (Mar 4, 2016)

The 5D MkIII was overpriced on launch, and the price drop 6 months down the line made me feel like I had been robbed. So no buying within the first year of launch for me!


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## ahsanford (Mar 4, 2016)

suburbia said:


> The 5D MkIII was overpriced on launch, and the price drop 6 months down the line made me feel like I had been robbed. So no buying within the first year of launch for me!



Sure, but it has actually held its price over the years remarkably well compared to other rigs.

- A


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## Maiaibing (Mar 4, 2016)

Etienne said:


> With lots of detail on the banding in the shadows. See DPR ... not recommended for low light



Can you point to that? Have not seen any banding myself even in long exposure night shots (5DS R). Also, do not remember having seen any complaints about this.


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## Maiaibing (Mar 4, 2016)

Hector1970 said:


> I'd find the 5DIII much better than than the 5DSR (which I assume is like a 5DS) in low light.



Sounds like you are probably using Lightroom's standard color profile if this is the case. 

If you use Canon's RAW engine or a dedicated profile in Lightroom noise is somewhat better on the 5DS R than the 5DIII on top you get better detail - if you reduce to the same file size.


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## rrcphoto (Mar 4, 2016)

lightthief said:


> \A new and better sensor would be fine, but to me, without a big IQ improvment, these things alone are worth the upgrade
> - wider spreaded AF-Points (please, not more or make it possible to switch some off)
> - DPAF for video and touchscreen to set the focus
> - autoISO and max. shutter speed up to 1/8000
> ...



2 out of 5 are firmware - the autoISO ones.. the others? probably not.


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## Maiaibing (Mar 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Sure, but it has actually held its price over the years remarkably well compared to other rigs.
> - A



I hope this is a joke? You are aware you cannot visually compare the three graphs (at all)?


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## AWR (Mar 4, 2016)

Tiderace said:


> We will make graded improvements and make sure to cripple all video components. We are in denial about the shrinking DSLR market. We do not realize that cameras are already producing images of such detail and quality most people cannot see the difference analogous to 4K vs HD on a large TV.
> We are blind to Sony stealing the game away from us in many respects with the A7RII and the FS5 and FS7, and now their lower priced Mirrorless cameras, which are improving rapidly. Oh but our lenses are so fantastic.
> 
> What a shame the dual pixel focus good skin tones and lenses could have been a foundation for massive innovation. NOPE. I bet either no 4K or crippled 4K. and very low bit rate HDMI out and maybe not even with audio. Too bad. Loved Canon for years and years. It is not just for my end of the market I feel sad about it is the shrinking DSLR market in general they are not moving to embrace the changes in this market.



Why are you in Canon forum?
If you'd be happy with sony, then why come here?

I bet you don't have Sony or Canon, you never had.
Little dog.


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## EduPortas (Mar 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> suburbia said:
> 
> 
> > The 5D MkIII was overpriced on launch, and the price drop 6 months down the line made me feel like I had been robbed. So no buying within the first year of launch for me!
> ...



Coincidentally, the US dollar has grown stronger vs. the Japanese Yen during that period.


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## ahsanford (Mar 4, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Sure, but it has actually held its price over the years remarkably well compared to other rigs.
> ...



Of course, there's no perfect comparison given the market segment, time on the market, etc., but I'll distill those charts down a bit:

5D3: is sitting at 71% of it's launch price at roughly 4 years since launch
6D: is sitting at 66% of it's launch price at 2.5 years since launch
7D2: is sitting at 83% of it's launch price at 1.5 years since launch

I'm just saying that commanding 70%+ of your original asking price some _four_ years after launch is awfully impressive. It think only 1D series rigs retain price in that neighborhood. Both the 6D and 7D2's asking prices are declining far more rapidly in comparison.

Pricing can, of course, be tented up by the company given how it's reseller rules work, but they are not completely deaf to the market when they make these changes. For instance, if a 6D was still sitting at $2,099 right now, it's sales would absolutely plummet.

So I find the 5D3 (despite any in-the-first-six-months drop that disappointed Suburbia) has done very well for itself in the market.

- A


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## JonAustin (Mar 4, 2016)

lightthief said:


> - wider-spread AF-Points (please, not more or make it possible to switch some off)



Perhaps I misunderstand your request of the next 5D model, but if not, what you have requested (the ability to switch some AF points off is already available in the 5D mark III. Refer to page 74 (of the English manual, anyway), "Selecting the AF Point Manually." You can select 1, 4 (or 3 along the boundaries), 9 (4 to 6 along the boundaries), 12 (9 along the boundaries) or all 61 points.


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## JonAustin (Mar 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> If you own a 5D3 and skipped the 5DS for whatever reason, do you pre-order a 5D4 on day one, or are you waiting for sensor testing first? (Clearly, this is more aimed at the stills camp -- I imagine the video decision is a bit easier to make on day one based on the spec sheet.)
> 
> - A



I'm waiting for the first round of tests. Based on what little we know about the 5D4 (or whatever it'll be named) at this point, I'm more inclined to snap up a 2nd 5D3 at clearance prices while they're still available, than to go for its successor. 

If I do decide that the 5D4 is enough of an improvement to make it worth it _for my purposes_, I'll probably still wait 6 months or more, to avoid the "new and shiny" price premium, and for Canon to shake out any early bugs.


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## kaswindell (Mar 4, 2016)

JohnUSA said:


> -1 said:
> 
> 
> > JohnUSA said:
> ...



+1

My one year old refurb 5D3 has been great, as has the 24-105 that came with it and I just picked up a refurb 16-35 f/4. Refurb doesn't mean broken, it means that it works properly - it just has been repaired by somebody with more skill than the factory line workers who messed up in the first place.


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## ashmadux (Mar 4, 2016)

I LOVE my 5d3, so i'd either be tempted to get another one, or super pumped to get the mark 4.

Ive owned it for less than a year, and it's worth its weight in gold. 

If it had the 6D iso performance, it would be just perfect for my needs.

Also, im glad to see that AF point spreads are getting wider - af points all stuffed in the middle of the frame is simply not ideal.


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## lightthief (Mar 4, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> lightthief said:
> 
> 
> > \A new and better sensor would be fine, but to me, without a big IQ improvment, these things alone are worth the upgrade
> ...



My goPro can get 30 and 60 fps full HD out of 12 MP. I can't believe, Canon can't get 60fps out of 20 MP full HD with the 5DIII hardware. But i don't understand that Digic-thing.


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## lightthief (Mar 4, 2016)

JonAustin said:


> lightthief said:
> 
> 
> > - wider-spread AF-Points (please, not more or make it possible to switch some off)
> ...



Sorry, my fault. I didn't wrote it clear. Using a single af point and changing it, let's say going from the center to one corner AF point takes some clicks with the joystick. if there are more points, it takes more time to reach the most distant point. Very often, i do not have this time and so i do net get the shot i want. That's why i don't want more points (or a menu to switch off every second row and column), but wider spreaded points would be great.
Recomposing didn't work with a fast moving axe or vespa... for portraits the 5DIII AF-positions are good enough for me.


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## binder (Mar 4, 2016)

I live in Canada and am interested in purchasing a MarkIII.... any advice on whether to wait?
Canon has announced a price increase for Canada April 1st, however I would also imagine the price of the MarkIII to drop when the new product is unveiled.... Any insight onto previous camera body launches, and the amount of discount applied to older models?


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## rrcphoto (Mar 4, 2016)

lightthief said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > lightthief said:
> ...



your gopro has a ridiculously sized small sensor as compared to a full frame camera, the smaller the sensor, the smaller the length of wiring on the sensor, the less heat generated by running it fast, and so on.
it's simply much easier to get quicker stuff out of it.

DiGiC as well has some play in there.


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## lightthief (Mar 4, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> lightthief said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



okay, thank you. If that is the problem, I hope Canon will find a solution for that.


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## beforeEos Camaras (Mar 4, 2016)

I am glad I just bought my 5dmk3. I love it I now need to get the grip for it and 2 600 Speedlight's. plus the 13 month extended warranty is a major plus it may be a end cycle camera but it hits it out of the park for me. ti1>70D>5dmk3 I can use my 400l with and 1.4mk3 extender and get the center point to focus with.


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## JohnUSA (Mar 4, 2016)

kaswindell said:


> JohnUSA said:
> 
> 
> > -1 said:
> ...



Many refurbs are new cameras that only had their boxes cosmetically damaged. Buyers want pristine boxes when buying. So stores returned items with damaged boxes to Canon for refund or exchanged.


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## LoneRider (Mar 4, 2016)

lightthief said:


> My goPro can get 30 and 60 fps full HD out of 12 MP. I can't believe, Canon can't get 60fps out of 20 MP full HD with the 5DIII hardware. But i don't understand that Digic-thing.



The chipsets in the devices are fairly different. The DIGIC is designed to be able to transfer and process high quality JPEGs and RAW files, process AF and so on. There is a lot going on in the processor. As well, no offense to cannon, the ASIC DIGIC is probably relative low volume compared to the processor in the GoPro which has a highly optimized MP4 compression engine, using a TI OMAP processor or such.

As well scaling, processor like the OMAP have a dedicated scaling stage to feed into the mpeg4 codec, where the older DIGICs might not. As well, the OMAP has a DMA engine that is made to optimize putting together mpeg4 frames, really cool, again I doubt the older DIGICs do.

The new DIGICs probably have this.

As well, their is a quality difference, Canon must be very high, where the GoPro can't get away with a bit more loss.

From what I understand the 1Dx-ii is goign to have a top notch mp4 codec, no??

Anyway, from what I gather from the experts on the forums, 4k on the 1Dx is a must have that will only be a handy to have for many of the owners, who need the AF and stills on it.

I've opined that the 5D-iv will have a 25.1-26 MP minimum, to allow for a 1.5x scale down to full width 4K.

I also bet, at some point there could be a firmware upgrade to do a full width 4K on the 1Dx-ii, when they get the scaling in the pipeline proven out.

Anyway, if Canon can get 8+fps, 25MP, AF as good or better than the 7D-ii, DPAF, GPS, and one chip ADC, and close to the $3K mark, I'm in. I am guessing they have the heat problems sorted out in the 1Dx, really thermodynamics in consumer electronics is a well modeling art now. Look at laptops, and tablets, stereos and such. Car stereos would be an interesting one, keep the dust out. But I digress. Just want to say tools like Solid works and the available models have come along way over the last 5 years. There is no reason that they can't do rapid mechanical design. So shame on Sony for failing that checkmark!

Anyway, I'm tired of the 50D and 7D I have. I keep on pushing up against the noise wall when I am doing indoor sports and some evening photography with moderate movement.

I want to jump to FF, but it's got to be compelling. For my video needs, the 5D-iii is not quite there. I really want DPAF.

That is my $0.02.


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## ecka (Mar 5, 2016)

Is anyone using mRAW or sRAW on your 5Ds? How do those compare to normal RAW downsized in post?


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## In-The-Dark (Mar 5, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> In-The-Dark said:
> 
> 
> > How about EF 28-135 IS USM with f/4.0 constant aperture.
> ...



Point taken.
But the Nikon version was released back in 2010 I think, and with the improvement in lens technology nowadays, IMHO it may be possible for Canon to come up with a refresh that could even be better IQ-wise than the EF 24-105/4L.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 5, 2016)

LoneRider said:


> As well, their is a quality difference, Canon must be very high, where the GoPro can't get away with a bit more loss.



The thing is the DIGIC produces rather poor quality video though. Look at RAW video from ML on the 5D3, it shows the hardware can put out a very crisp, true 1080P with nice detail, but then look at the footage the camera produces after DIGIC debayer and processing, it's utter mush. And note that Canon used a much older DV chip for the C300 series instead of a newer DIGIC, probably because the DIGIC doesn't actually produce top quality. Or maybe the marketing guys guys told the engineers to use crappy settings on their DSLRs to cripple the video as further internal market segmentation. It could be that instead.



> From what I understand the 1Dx-ii is goign to have a top notch mp4 codec, no??



It's never been the compression codec that has made Canon DSLR video poor. Unless you pan around and the entire frame changes and you don't use frame by frame option it barely looks any different using clean HDMI out to a high quality external compressor than just using the internal Canon compressor. But then compare ML RAW which avoids the image processing stage and the quality looks fantastic. It's as good as you can get from a DSLR for 1080P.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 5, 2016)

For all those who poo-poo DR and say it's just fools in the lab or spec comparison obsessed and does nothing how about all the quotes along the lines of:

"After watching a lot of HDR everything not in HDR looks very flat and sometimes even quite bad. Like how could I watch this before, bad."

"Had the please of watching TFA in Dolby Vision in Hollywood. It was incredible."

"Yep. Watching Mozart in the Jungle in SDR after watching HDR just gives me a "stank face." It just seems dull."

"It was impressive:

The opening scene showed a lot of contrast between light and dark.

Rey's vision had a lot of really nice elements to it.

Space was BLACK but stars were bright. The red beams from the Starkiller against the blackness of space were stark.

The evening scene in the woods with the lightsaber battle was AWESOME. The blades were bright and very rich in color, yet everything in the darkness was still remarkably visible.

I could get very used to HDR content!"

"The most amazing presentation I saw of it was in a giant true IMAX theater (like 90'+ screen) that had the new LASER 3D IMAX system. Wow was that an amazing experience!!!! It looked amazing with the blacks so black but the brights even brighter. Everything looked so much more like real life from that alone. And then the 3D had zero ghosting and...."

from regular joe after regular joe regarding new HDR TV sets and HDR UHD discs and Dolby Cinema HDR Laser presentations of movies in theaters or Laser 3D IMAX presentations in movie theaters.

These are not people who have any team too root for any chance for fanboyism at stake and they actually, SHOCKER, don't consider high DR a bunch of nonsense for geeks in a lab.... go figure.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 5, 2016)

And all of those saying oh there is no way to ever display, well what did I say, think ahead a little, have a little vision, HDR is coming to theaters and home and everywhere in display tech soon and here it is.


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## Jopa (Mar 5, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > wtlloyd said:
> ...



Downsample to 23mpx and you'll get a slightly better iso performance than the 5dm3. Also not sure if 1fps makes huge difference. The 5dm3 doesn't have the 1dx2 AF.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 5, 2016)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> For all those who poo-poo DR and say it's just fools in the lab or spec comparison obsessed and does nothing how about all the quotes along the lines of:
> 
> "After watching a lot of HDR everything not in HDR looks very flat and sometimes even quite bad. Like how could I watch this before, bad."
> 
> ...





LetTheRightLensIn said:


> And all of those saying oh there is no way to ever display, well what did I say, think ahead a little, have a little vision, HDR is coming to theaters and home and everywhere in display tech soon and here it is.



HDR in TV's is talking about adopting 10bit, and even then the standard is that they don't need to display every discrete colour, cameras set to RAW already capture way more DR than even the best HDR TV can display, so your point is what exactly, that in another two generations TV's might catch up with today's cameras?


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 5, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> so your point is what exactly, that in another two generations TV's might catch up with today's cameras?



Wait, you think he had a point?


----------



## privatebydesign (Mar 5, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > so your point is what exactly, that in another two generations TV's might catch up with today's cameras?
> ...



Sorry, momentary slip, I apologize for the mistake......


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## George D. (Mar 5, 2016)

What does it mean "production of the EOS 5D Mark III finished?"? For all we know they may have an inventory large enough to keep them running sales for another year. We don't even know the rate of sales in relation to inventory, they lower price but no-one tells us people are buying. So, we really can't say. The "kit lens" is a nice observation, a new popular zoom (or 50/1.4?) would be a hint of the new 5DIV/X unless they launch them together (unlikely).


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## Etienne (Mar 5, 2016)

dilbert said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



DPR specifically called out the 5Ds for having terrible banding in the shadows. By all accounts, the 5Ds is a specialty camera for those who want maximum detail at low ISO.


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## Maiaibing (Mar 5, 2016)

Etienne said:


> DPR specifically called out the 5Ds for having terrible banding in the shadows. By all accounts, the 5Ds is a specialty camera for those who want maximum detail at low ISO.



Where does this come from? Have not heard about this and see no owners complaining. On the contrary people seem unanimously to agree the 5DS/R has better high iso than the 5DIII. Which fits my own expiriance as well (never saw any banding myself and being a long time 5DII owner I sure know what banding looks like).


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## MrFotoFool (Mar 5, 2016)

*For my purposes* (note the emphasis), the 5D3 is as close to perfection as any camera can be. I cannot imagine needing another camera for many years, if ever. That being said, I just got a better paying job so we will see if my statement holds true or not! 

As for high ISO on 5D3 vs 5Ds, why are you all needing ISO 12,800 or higher? Do you all shoot for the CIA or something?


----------



## Etienne (Mar 5, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > DPR specifically called out the 5Ds for having terrible banding in the shadows. By all accounts, the 5Ds is a specialty camera for those who want maximum detail at low ISO.
> ...



I won't get back that 30 seconds of my life that it took me to find it, so here you go: commenting on DR ... "And it's not just landscapes that suffer: the shot below contained an impossible-to-control background scene of high contrast, and exposing to retain the sky meant that shadow brightening to make the foreground anything but a sea of black resulted in noise and banding, which you can see even in the 50% crop below." 

Here, I'll save you the 30 seconds : http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/12


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## Memdroid (Mar 5, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > DPR specifically called out the 5Ds for having terrible banding in the shadows. By all accounts, the 5Ds is a specialty camera for those who want maximum detail at low ISO.
> ...



My guess is that he never used a 5Ds or a 5D3 and based his assumptions of online reviews sites. I read the review on DPR and that whole article was based around DR and how the competition has better sensor tech. They were really looking hard to find a fault in the camera and zoomed on a tiny little box of nothing on an otherwise great photo, just too say it had banding, pathetic! In actual real world use, the banding on the 5D3 was hardly an issue on a properly exposed image and is now barely non existent on the 5Ds. So yeah, if that is your benchmark to downplay an otherwise superb camera, than you can never ever be a satisfied _photographer__.
_


----------



## Etienne (Mar 5, 2016)

Memdroid said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



I've owned both the 5DII and 5DIII (which is still an awesome all-round camera, built like a tank). And here's DP review's summary of teh 5Ds: "While the 5DS and 5DS R are solid additions to Canon's lineup, ultimately they're not really best at much save for ultimate resolution."
So, my conclusion is that you're just a bonehead.


----------



## Memdroid (Mar 5, 2016)

Etienne said:


> Memdroid said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



Sure I am a bonehead. Just because I don't form opinions based on assumptions and a nonobjective article on the internet, but with actual experience and understanding. And my conclusion is that the 5Ds does everything better than the 5D3, save for speed and the obvious files size differences. If you get a good deal or can use one as a loaner than try it, you won't be disappointed.


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## Etienne (Mar 5, 2016)

Memdroid said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > Memdroid said:
> ...



You blithely suggest that someone who points out a less than glowing assessment of your new toy is somehow inexperienced or unqualified to present info, and you even reject the info from a detailed review from a reputable source ... that is what makes you a bonehead.

I don't think the 5Ds is bad, but as DPR clearly demonstrates, it's not the best option in any category, save if for some reason 43 MP on the A7rII is not quite enough for you. I'll skip the 5Ds, and see what the 5D mark IV has to offer. I'll even consider the 80D as a backup video camera for it's DPAF performance if it is free of moire and aliasing before I'd get the 5Ds. And if I had to go high MP, I'd probably put an adapter on the Sony A7rII.


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## Schwingi (Mar 5, 2016)

Looking forward to it, pls Canon don't mess this up.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 5, 2016)

Etienne said:


> I don't think the 5Ds is bad, but as DPR clearly demonstrates, it's not the best option in any category, save if for some reason 43 MP on the A7rII is not quite enough for you.



Ahhhh, yes – DPR, the source of all wisdom and unbiased information. DPR's general attitude is, "Nikon and Sony cameras deliver stellar performance and outstanding images, and Canon cameras take decent pictures." DPR has a nice, cozy relationship with DxO, who's scoring is based on the fact that DR and color depth at base ISO are the most important criteria by which cameras – and lenses! – should be evaluated. I mean, we all know how important lens DR is, right? 

You might also consider that DPR base their reviews on LR-converted RAW images, and other converters often handle Canon RAWs better. But such considerations are usually irrelevant to those who've made up their mind in advance.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 5, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> HDR in TV's is talking about adopting 10bit, and even then the standard is that they don't need to display every discrete colour, cameras set to RAW already capture way more DR than even the best HDR TV can display, so your point is what exactly, that in another two generations TV's might catch up with today's cameras?



Except the standard isn't based simple linear bit depth.
Dolby Vision HDR baseband signal ranges from 0 (essentially) to 10,000 nits being able to be both shown at the same time. That range is what they found was able to reasonably satisfy 90% of viewers. Viewers felt that expanding DR made an even larger difference than expanding spatial resolution. The full DR is not available in monitor type displays yet but would require 12bits with their new EOTF instead of 14-15bits using a regular gamma function. This new perceptual quantizer has been standardized as SMPTE ST-2084 and is used in various HDR-related standards and applications. Some generic HDR approaches use the PQ EOTF with 10 bits instead of 12. New spatial resolution base standard will be 8MP to start (which is actually the normalization standard DxO uses).

But the main point was not any numbers but just that any improvements in DR in either capture device DR then tone mapped or device output DR made for a better visual experience and that viewers even prioritized DR improvements over spatial resolution improvements so that talk about getting better DR isn't a bunch of silly nonsense that only people sitting in labs care about (of course anyone who actually goes into the real world and tries to actually user their camera to take pictures would already known this since it's just not that hard to find shots that just don't fit on the current Canon sensors (one hopes this new batch really does finally get to Exmor territory)). And that many kept going on about how HDR sensors require too much tone-mapping but displays are going up 2-4 stops (probably more for some of the theatrical laser displays, I forget but I think they were talking 16-18 stops or something) and not way off decades from now and that's about the amount Exmor has done better by.


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## Larsskv (Mar 5, 2016)

Memdroid said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



+1.

I remember that nonsense article. It was after that I gave up on DPR altogether. The shot was ok to begin with, but the shadows were pushed way more than I would ever do or want to do, and the so called banding was almost impossible to see. I don't dispute that a Sony sensor would do better, I just don't see much real world use for the Sony advantage. When DPR makes a big point out of this, and fail to appreciate many things I love about Canon, I don't find them relevant to me, or for real world shooting. I've decided to avoid them, as I disagree with most of what they say.


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## Maiaibing (Mar 5, 2016)

Etienne said:


> Here, I'll save you the 30 seconds : http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/12



Thanks. I probably let the intro be the more important part of my reading: "the best performing Canon sensor to-date". Fortunately "terrible" banding sure looks better today than it used to... 

Anyway maybe I just don't set out to lift the shadows like dpreview did here since I have yet to see it.


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## Etienne (Mar 5, 2016)

Maybe "Canon Rumors" should be renamed to "SoNikon is Evil" ... after all it's blasphemy here to suggest that Canon DSLRs are not the best at everything.


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## zim (Mar 5, 2016)

Etienne said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



Thanks, saved me 30s as well.
I don't really understand that photo with the 50% crop showing banding. Do they mean that the little box that they pull up is a 50% crop of that whole picture or do they mean that that picture is itself a 50% crop of another picture?
In either scenario I don't see how that enlarged box to show banding is a 50% crop?


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 5, 2016)

Etienne said:


> Maybe "Canon Rumors" should be renamed to "SoNikon is Evil" ... after all it's blasphemy here to suggest that Canon DSLRs are not the best at everything.



I guess that makes me a blasphemer here, then. :


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## privatebydesign (Mar 5, 2016)

zim said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...


It would also have been nice, considering he admits he lifted the shadows, to know exactly what he did to those shadows, because as far as I can see there is not a vast DR in the sky, the sun has long since set. I have images from considerably older Canon cameras that contain the sun and the lifted shadows are not as bad as those shown.

Personally I can't take anything DPR says seriously anymore, they are liars and they are biased.


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## Pompo (Mar 6, 2016)

MrFotoFool said:


> *For my purposes* (note the emphasis), the 5D3 is as close to perfection as any camera can be. I cannot imagine needing another camera for many years, if ever. That being said, I just got a better paying job so we will see if my statement holds true or not!
> 
> As for high ISO on 5D3 vs 5Ds, why are you all needing ISO 12,800 or higher? Do you all shoot for the CIA or something?



if you shoot at concerts or on movie sets you need high high shutter speeds and those places are very dark. yes I Need to stop the action and sometimes to stop down a bit to get enough dof for tho- tree actors, I would love to have usable IS0 30k isn The 1DX Mark II may be my ticket to heaven!  Cant wait to try it!


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## scyrene (Mar 6, 2016)

MrFotoFool said:


> *For my purposes* (note the emphasis), the 5D3 is as close to perfection as any camera can be. I cannot imagine needing another camera for many years, if ever. That being said, I just got a better paying job so we will see if my statement holds true or not!
> 
> As for high ISO on 5D3 vs 5Ds, why are you all needing ISO 12,800 or higher? Do you all shoot for the CIA or something?



Try birds under a full woodland canopy. Or people dancing at an evening wedding reception disco. You don't need extreme situations to hit such high ISO speeds.


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## YuengLinger (Mar 6, 2016)

scyrene said:


> MrFotoFool said:
> 
> 
> > *For my purposes* (note the emphasis), the 5D3 is as close to perfection as any camera can be. I cannot imagine needing another camera for many years, if ever. That being said, I just got a better paying job so we will see if my statement holds true or not!
> ...



+1

I am an idiot to still be following this thread.


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## bdunbar79 (Mar 6, 2016)

Etienne said:


> Maybe "Canon Rumors" should be renamed to "SoNikon is Evil" ... after all it's blasphemy here to suggest that Canon DSLRs are not the best at everything.



It goes both ways. And if that's all that is said, it wouldn't be a big deal. It's really the constant proclamation that Sony and Nikon have set THE gold standard, and that Canon sucks horribly bad and will lose all market share if they don't match SoNikon's spec sheets soon. MILC of course is going to take over DSLR sales and since Canon doesn't have a big time pro MILC that should seal their fate.

Of course in the real world MILC sales are flat and Canon's market share keeps growing.


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## hubie (Mar 6, 2016)

Oh boys, stop calling each other names... seriously. Canon makes good gear, so does Nikon and Sony. It depends on your liking wether or not you are going to shoot with either of these brands (or multiple of them). I chose Canon, not really knowing alot about either of them but just hearing about the nice Canon Glass (which was important for me back then) and I never *really* regretted making that choice.

Of course, I hope for better DR in the future, stellar SN-performance and 4K video (although I never used it yet - lol) combined in a 1500 - 2000 € (yeah, I do live in the EU ) package. Yet, I am still very happy with my 70D, which is my first camera (not considering mobile phone cameras).

I am very much looking forward on the succesor of the 6D, as I think that the 5D mk IV is way out of my reach, financially. I'd rather put the money into a 2000 € lens instead of adding it up to make the step from the 6D to a 5D.

Cheers


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## Maiaibing (Mar 6, 2016)

bdunbar79 said:


> Of course in the real world MILC sales are flat and Canon's market share keeps growing.



Think you got confused writing this. Its more like the opposite.

MILC sales increased from 2014 to 15 both in market share (from around 1-in-5 to around 1-in-4 of worldwide ILC sales) and even slightly in absolute numbers.

DSLR sales again were down 2014 to 2015 (for once only by a few percent). 

However, according to Canon their ILC unit sales fell with much more - a full 12% in 2015. Because Canon's mirrorless sales does not account for much of their overall sales (and actually should have gone up if Canon mirrorless follows the market norm) Canon DSLR's are in fact loosing market share to both mirrorless overall and to their specific DSLR competitors.

All this in spite of my own two Canon DSLR purchases last year...


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## eml58 (Mar 6, 2016)

Etienne said:


> Maybe "Canon Rumors" should be renamed to "SoNikon is Evil" ... after all it's blasphemy here to suggest that Canon DSLRs are not the best at everything.



That may be correct in a very few instances, there are certainly a few rabid Canon Lads here at Canon Rumours, to be expected considering the name of the site. But we tolerate them because......well they are Canonites after all and at times can be a little confused, but hidden in the confusion can from time to time be hidden words of wisdom, you do need to concentrate though.

But if you've been around CR for a while I think you may find your comment is incorrect, most People on this site appreciate good photography and good advice to better their photography, and there's a lot of both at CR, there's even images taken with Sony & Nikon Cameras that are excellent (gasp), to be expected, both companies produce some excellent Cameras (another gasp), of which I personally own a few of (even bigger one, perhaps a gasp).

No, I think if you were really perceptive and wanted to rename Canon Rumours you might change it to something like "DPR deluded fools we are not" or "We dislike DPR stinkers" or "DPR BS artists blown wide open", yeah, I think any of those might work 

Personally I think "Canon Rumours" works better though.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 6, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Of course in the real world MILC sales are flat and Canon's market share keeps growing.
> ...



Think you are simply confused about the terminology. 

MILC sales have risen by ~1% per year – that slope is close enough to flat that it's reasonable to call it such. Clearly, it's not a 'growth market' by any stretch. 

Market share is the fraction of sales by one manufacturer within a given market. For interchangeable lens cameras (ILCs – which comprise dSLRs and MILCs), Canon has had the largest market share for >11 years. Yes, the overall market is contracting – but Canon's market share has grown further over the past couple of years. 

The ILC market contraction is extrinsic to Canon, their maintained/growing market share indicated they are doing very well intrinsically. Sony is, too (although the most recent BCN showed Sony losing a lot of market share to Olympus).


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## Sporgon (Mar 6, 2016)

zim said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



There's something very strange about that picture of the girl, lit from the side with the post sunset sky behind. According to DPR it was shot at EV 7 and they had to lift the shadows. For a sky like that, just after the sun has set you'd normally be in the region of EV10, that's three stops faster, and you'd still be able to lift the shadows. So if I'd shot this kind of scene at EV 7 I'd be expecting to have to bring the highlights down and leave the shadows alone. 

Is it possible to download the raw file off DPR ?


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## privatebydesign (Mar 7, 2016)

Of course you can't get the RAW, but if you look at the preceding image in the gallery you can see how much lifting he has done :

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/12

Just like i said, the whole thing stinks.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 7, 2016)

This is an illustration of what Sporgon and I are talking about so it doesn't sound like a conspiracy theory.

This shot has more DR than the DPR image, how do we know that? The sun is still above the horizon.

First image is as shot. Second it as adjusted, dropped highlights and lifted shadows, the greenery is now much lighter than the DPR image. Third is 100% crop of lifted shadow area as marked in shot two. Same for four and five. Zero banding!

To me it seems DPR have severely under exposed the background and then made a big deal of the fact they can't lift it, my point is that the 5DSR is more than capable of taking that shot if it had been exposed properly. I am not saying for one second more DR is not a good thing, but to manipulate a severely underexposed image like that and then hold it up as an example of failed image quality is disingenuous at best. It stinks.


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## bdunbar79 (Mar 7, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Of course in the real world MILC sales are flat and Canon's market share keeps growing.
> ...



Nice try, but no.


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## Maiaibing (Mar 7, 2016)

bdunbar79 said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



LOL! OK I used Canon investor relations sales numbers and LensVid global camera sales numbers.

And you... rather just be blind to the facts?


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## privatebydesign (Mar 7, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



Nonsense, you could both be using the same figures, it is just your interpretation of them that is different. 

My take is that MILC are not growing at a rate anybody would call healthy, and SLR's, however much the camera market has shrunk, still comfortably outsell MILC by a substantial margin. Spin the numbers any way you want, Canon dominate camera sales and the second biggest player is losing market share.


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## Diltiazem (Mar 7, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



Exact numbers from all countries or regions are not available. But Japan numbers are available for last several years and they give a good indication of what's happening in other regions. 

First look at DSLR numbers. Canon has either maintained or increased market share.

 http://bcnranking.jp/award/section/hard/hard102.html 

See how much Nikon has lost between 2014 and 2015 (last two BCN awards). 

Now, look at mirrorless. This is supposed to be Canon's weakest point. 

http://bcnranking.jp/award/section/hard/hard94.html 

See how much share Sony has lost despite their A7 series or A6000. And Canon now is in third place above mirrorless giants Panasonic and Fuji.

And Canon always dominated point and shoot. 

http://bcnranking.jp/award/section/hard/hard54.html 

Sony is not in the picture despite internet/DPR favorite RX series. 

Yeah, it is true that DSLR market has fallen in last few years, but Canon has maintained it's dominance and it's nearest competitor Nikon has done pretty bad last year. 

And despite weaker presence in mirrorless Canon has increased it's market share. Mirrorless market has virtually plateaued. Only reason it has shown small growth is because it's cameras have been pretty rudimentary in functionality and for that reason it is able make substantial improvement compared to previous generation, this is making people to upgrade. I mean A6300 is the first mirrorless camera in which you can continue see a subject in burst mode. 

Your conclusions are erroneous.


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## kaihp (Mar 7, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> This is an illustration of what Sporgon and I are talking about so it doesn't sound like a conspiracy theory.
> 
> This shot has more DR than the DPR image, how do we know that? The sun is still above the horizon.
> 
> First image is as shot. Second it as adjusted, dropped highlights and lifted shadows, the greenery is now much lighter than the DPR image. Third is 100% crop of lifted shadow area as marked in shot two. Same for four and five. Zero banding!



Thanks for taking the time to do the shots and PP it to prove the point.


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## Diltiazem (Mar 7, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> This is an illustration of what Sporgon and I are talking about so it doesn't sound like a conspiracy theory.



There is no conspiracy theory. My experience with 5DsR is similar to yours. No banding in all shadow lifting experiments I have done.

Interesting thing about that DPR sample is that there is DPR studio DR test where they push shadow up to 6 stops.

 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/10

You can scan the whole scene where they push 6 stops and won't find banding. Yet, Rishi manages to find banding in a scene where he didn't provide the RAW for us to see what he did. Pretty desperate and dishonest.


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## wockawocka (Mar 7, 2016)

Hello, 
Just thought I'd drop in as I've seen 5DSR and 5D3 and blah blah blah BS comparisons and general moaning.

The 5DSr sensor is much better and has better colours and has better shadow performance than the 5D3.

I shot with the 5D3 since launch and for the last year dual 5DSr's for weddings too. I must be mad.

It's not night and day better, it has it's flaws but it's the best from Canon yet other than the 1DXii sensor of which I've not tried.

The best camera is one that helps you pay the bills on and gets the shot. Comparing modern cameras these days is pointless, they're all good and your clients mostly don't care.


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## docsmith (Mar 7, 2016)

wockawocka said:


> Hello,
> Just thought I'd drop in as I've seen 5DSR and 5D3 and blah blah blah BS comparisons and general moaning.
> 
> The 5DSr sensor is much better and has better colours and has better shadow performance than the 5D3.
> ...



Always appreciate your input and perspective.

But, on a tangent, I was scrolling through your website and noticed that you include a "1000 year lifespan time capsule disc" as part of your package. I am not a pro, but am interested in a permanent backup system. Could you elaborate on this a bit more?


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## zim (Mar 7, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> This is an illustration of what Sporgon and I are talking about so it doesn't sound like a conspiracy theory.



Thanks PBD and Sporgon, that I do understand.
Actually looks like you've lifted the shadows more than DPR and the only thing missing would be a second light source put on to the wooden post.

As an aside, don't like the bokeh on the horizon of that shot either which makes wonder with that really orange sky line is there any way that the lens isn't coping with it and is creating some false colouring which isn't getting handled correctly in his WF? (I don't mean that the lens is causing the banding!)

Regards


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## wockawocka (Mar 7, 2016)

docsmith said:


> wockawocka said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...



Sure thing, it's the Mdisc blu ray archival format. They have them all the way to BDXL's


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## bdunbar79 (Mar 7, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



Let me try helping you again. Rather, let me repost what neuro typed, since you either didn't understand it, or you didn't read it:

_Think you are simply confused about the terminology. 

MILC sales have risen by ~1% per year – that slope is close enough to flat that it's reasonable to call it such. Clearly, it's not a 'growth market' by any stretch. 

Market share is the fraction of sales by one manufacturer within a given market. For interchangeable lens cameras (ILCs – which comprise dSLRs and MILCs), Canon has had the largest market share for >11 years. Yes, the overall market is contracting – but Canon's market share has grown further over the past couple of years. 

The ILC market contraction is extrinsic to Canon, their maintained/growing market share indicated they are doing very well intrinsically. Sony is, too (although the most recent BCN showed Sony losing a lot of market share to Olympus)._


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## Sporgon (Mar 7, 2016)

zim said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > This is an illustration of what Sporgon and I are talking about so it doesn't sound like a conspiracy theory.
> ...



This had piqued my interest; just how had DRP managed to make the 5Ds look so bad when lifting data ? So this evening the sun set at 17:53, and I tried shooting into the light at ISO 250, f/2 and 1/30s, so EV7, just as DPR had. Initially this gave over exposure, as I had anticipated, and eventually it took until 18.10, so 20 minutes later before it began to balance. Then to get the effect with the side flash, using that exposure it too until 18:18 hours, so nearly half an hour. To give you an idea of how dark this is, the first picture is processed to reflect the actual luminosity of the scene as you would actually see it; that is it's beginning to get dark. My Sekonic hand held meter would not register at all. 

The second picture is a screen grab of the actual frame shot at the same EV as DPR. The third is a 50% crop after adjustment, which was lightening exposure a little and lifting shadows and increasing saturation. This was on the 5DII and I've never seen it look so horrid. 

So why is this ? The lift wasn't that great, and on the R G B values the dark areas are only around mid twenties, not something that would normally make the 5DII fall apart. Well as Private pointed out, it is underexposed, probably by around three stops, but the killer is the fact that it is now so dark, and the light density is so thin: there just aren't the photons about, and it is under exposed to boot. There's not enough to record. 

I don't have an Exmor sensor'd camera to hand at the moment, but I'm sure that if I did the same thing, although I wouldn't get banding I'd still get very poor tonality and noise. It's just preferring one type of crap to another. 

It's a crass test of a camera. Rishi from DPR seems to follow CR now, perhaps he'd like to explain himself.


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## wockawocka (Mar 7, 2016)

The thing with reviews is they will always be bias based on the reviewer. If Sony is getting a lot of hype and fanboi'sm then you betcha it will trickle down to other manufacturers, in a bad way.

That's how it goes. People seem to be pushing and pulling cameras in extreme ways to show the cracks and flaws. I know we get excited about new tech and geek the **** out of ourselves with excitement but often it seems we forget that under normal circumstances these cameras are great already.

I can't juggle, does that make me a bad person?
I'm over 40, does that make me unable to shoot a wedding?
The Sony has better shadow recovery, does that stop the Canon from taking great photos?

and so on.

The 5DSr does fine. I don't feel the need to go elsewhere and I don't think about the other manufacturers anymore.


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## livingunique (Mar 7, 2016)

wockawocka said:


> The thing with reviews is they will always be bias based on the reviewer. If Sony is getting a lot of hype and fanboi'sm then you betcha it will trickle down to other manufacturers, in a bad way.
> 
> That's how it goes. People seem to be pushing and pulling cameras in extreme ways to show the cracks and flaws. I know we get excited about new tech and geek the **** out of ourselves with excitement but often it seems we forget that under normal circumstances these cameras are great already.
> 
> ...



I recently had a friend who wanted to upgrade to FF. He'd shot a Canon 70D (or maybe 60D) up until that point and only had one or two lenses. He was quizzing me about all sorts of things from DR to IQ and video FPS.

I finally told him to go to 500px or flickr or any other photo site and look up photos he liked, then check the meta data. He found out that all cameras are capable of taking fantastic photographs with good lenses.

I suggested he should then rent the cameras he was torn about and actually use them for a few days.

He settled on the 5D3 when it was all said and done.


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## Don Haines (Mar 7, 2016)

The thing is, I can take any camera on the market and go out and shoot 2 pictures. The first picture will show you how wonderful the camera is. The second picture will show you how terrible the camera is.

When I see a review that fixates on how bad camera X is, the only thing I know is that the writer has an axe to grind. What we need are balanced and consistent reviews that include various lighting conditions and AF challenges. By cherry picking, all the author does is to demean themselves and help confuse the reader.


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## livingunique (Mar 7, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> The thing is, I can take any camera on the market and go out and shoot 2 pictures. The first picture will show you how wonderful the camera is. The second picture will show you how terrible the camera is.
> 
> When I see a review that fixates on how bad camera X is, the only thing I know is that the writer has an axe to grind. What we need are balanced and consistent reviews that include various lighting conditions and AF challenges. By cherry picking, all the author does is to demean themselves and help confuse the reader.



Exactly. If you're a Canon shooter and want high res, get the 5DS/R. If you shot Nikon, get the D810. Both are excellent and you'll get great results.


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## Sporgon (Mar 7, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> Of course you can't get the RAW, but if you look at the preceding image in the gallery you can see how much lifting he has done :
> 
> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/12
> 
> Just like i said, the whole thing stinks.



Yes indeed. "Impossible to control background seen, high contrast"......... Yea, sure :

My little experiment showed that he must have shot that about 25 minutes after sun down, and so at that exposure he'd have had at least a stop or so more latitude available for the sky.


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## zim (Mar 7, 2016)

Sporgon said:


> This had piqued my interest; just how had DRP managed to make the 5Ds look so bad when lifting data ? So this evening the sun set at 17:53, and I tried shooting into the light at ISO 250, f/2 and 1/30s, so EV7, just as DPR had. Initially this gave over exposure, as I had anticipated, and eventually it took until 18.10, so 20 minutes later before it began to balance. Then to get the effect with the side flash, using that exposure it too until 18:18 hours, so nearly half an hour. To give you an idea of how dark this is, the first picture is processed to reflect the actual luminosity of the scene as you would actually see it; that is it's beginning to get dark. My Sekonic hand held meter would not register at all.
> 
> The second picture is a screen grab of the actual frame shot at the same EV as DPR. The third is a 50% crop after adjustment, which was lightening exposure a little and lifting shadows and increasing saturation. This was on the 5DII and I've never seen it look so horrid.
> 
> ...




fascinating, if I felt technically competent enough I'd have a go at this myself, ISO 250, f/2 and 1/30s is dark!
heck I'm going to try it this week end weather permitting on a 7D just for a laugh, any ways what's the worst that can happen - I learn something 

comparing your 5D2 to PBD's pics to DPR's and the size of that little red square I'm coming to the conclusion that it's not banding in Rishi's pic it's grass ;D


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## Etienne (Mar 8, 2016)

wockawocka said:


> Hello,
> Just thought I'd drop in as I've seen 5DSR and 5D3 and blah blah blah BS comparisons and general moaning.
> 
> The 5DSr sensor is much better and has better colours and has better shadow performance than the 5D3.
> ...



You should be comparing the 5Ds with other high megapixel cameras like the A7rII and the Nikon what-ever-its-called. If you don't need megapickles, the 5Ds is not worth the upgrade from the 5D3, and if it's megapickles you really need, then both the Nikon and the Sony give better results.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 8, 2016)

Etienne said:


> If you don't need megapickles, the 5Ds is not worth the upgrade from the 5D3, and if it's megapickles you really need, then both the Nikon and the Sony give better results.



If you habitually drastically underexpose your images, want to try and salvage them in post by extreme exposure pushing, and are willing to tolerate the effect that has on tonality...by all means, Nikon or Sony are a better choice.


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## Etienne (Mar 8, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > If you don't need megapickles, the 5Ds is not worth the upgrade from the 5D3, and if it's megapickles you really need, then both the Nikon and the Sony give better results.
> ...



Oh lord ... puhlleeaasee ... photographers have been lifting shadows since they first turned on an enlarger. Why would you NOT want the option?


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 8, 2016)

Etienne said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



Did you miss the words _drastic_ and _extreme_? I can lift shadows in Canon images sufficiently to produce the effects I need, just as I did with dodging many years ago. Sure, more is always better and I'd welcome it if it came without tradeoffs...but that's not the case.


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## Etienne (Mar 8, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



I'm a Canon fan, with lots of Canon gear that I have no intention of selling. But I recognize that Nikon and Sony are offering some great products too, some of which are beating Canon in some categories ... for now. .. and I want Canon to be the best at everything.
Any way, at the end of the day, I stay with Canon for several very important reasons: the Canon system gets the job I need done better, easier and more reliably in wider variety of situations and needs than the competition. But Sony and Nikon still beat Canon on some parameters ... and if they were of ultimate importance to me, I'd go with them. But I want it all; I want my Canon gear to be the best at everything, and right now it is not.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 8, 2016)

Etienne said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



I agree with the latter sentiment, which is at odds with, "...if it's megapickles you really need, then both the Nikon and the Sony give better results." Probably semantics – some people fixate on pixels, to me 'results' means pictures, not pixels. 

Edit: you're also using DPR's biased reviews as 'evidence', which as the above discussion suggests is unwise.


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## Etienne (Mar 8, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



High megapixel (landscape, fashion, whatever) is not really my thing, but a lot of high megapixel people are singing the Nikon and Sony song, so I have to take their word for it. And some journalists and videographers prefer Sony for 4K video and high frame rates, which is something I would really like, but at the moment I prefer Canon color over Sony (for video), and Canon's DPAF for video seems to have the edge and this is important to me. But I still want Canon to offer the best frame rates and also 4K at least in the 5DIV and C100 mk III. Time will tell


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## Sporgon (Mar 8, 2016)

zim said:


> comparing your 5D2 to PBD's pics to DPR's and the size of that little red square I'm coming to the conclusion that it's not banding in Rishi's pic it's grass ;D



No doubt grass has something to do with it, but it's more likely he'd been smoking it


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## RickWagoner (Mar 8, 2016)

Nikon has a D810 successor coming this year...and Canon knows it.


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## tron (Mar 8, 2016)

Sporgon said:


> zim said:
> 
> 
> > comparing your 5D2 to PBD's pics to DPR's and the size of that little red square I'm coming to the conclusion that it's not banding in Rishi's pic it's grass ;D
> ...


Or he is looking the grass on the other side and it seems greener ;D


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## jeffa4444 (Mar 8, 2016)

Just returned from South Africa shooting big game & birds at the tail end of a business trip. Decided to take the 5Ds as it has the cropping mode rather than my 6D. As those that have been on these trips know game is best sought around sunset & dawn both of which mean you raising ISO and with long lenses which you wish to match or exceed shutter speeds with higher ISOs come into play more often. 
My results are a mixed bag & Im sure some was down to my own technique as Im predominately a landscape photographer and not used to welding a 100-400mm L zoom. The 5Ds allows you to crop agressively as long as the ISO is below 800ISO anything above that and the noise & sharpness suffer dramatically. On shots of Leopard just before it was totally dark at some 500m from the vehicle Ive got pictures that I can just about live with and I know if I had used the 6D I would have had more useable ISO but less resolution to enlarge with so likely been in the same place. 
The 5Ds is a great camera for landscape, portraits, macro etc. but an average camera in low light for game Ive learned this past weekend. In some decent light the shots I took of birds are stunning, the crops in cases were large yet retain great detail & sharpness. Shots of Elephant across a watering hole late afternoon are equally impressive. 
So in the 5D MKIV I would like to see better low light ISO with a small incremental increase in MP over the 6D / 5D MKIII to exploit the newer L lenses potential.


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## rrcphoto (Mar 8, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



maybe he's waiting for you to have some.

for starters .. it's not "sales" it's "shipments" recorded by CIPA.

since there are 9 vendors shipping new MILC's versus really just two shipping new DSLR's on an annual basis, there's a little leaning of those results in favor of MILC's, since vendors usually ship the most on product announcement, because that's when the most interest is.

secondly it wasn't as dramatic of an increase as you suggested:

it went from 23.5% to 24.9%

as a matter of fact, it's only gone from 20.1% to 24.9%over the course of 2012 through 2015.

however, that's with these facts:

- Sony stopped shipping mass quantities of DSLR's - that amounted to around a 11-13% marketshare overall.
- Multiple vendors started to ship mirrorless in mass quantities, including Canon and Fuji.

Taking into account Sony, suggests that the market really hasn't grown - just Sony STOPPING to ship mass amounts of DSLT's and not shipping ANYTHING at all would account for a 5% marketshare gain for mirrorless - by default of doing nothing.


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## dolina (Mar 8, 2016)

My personal speculation on the 5D3 replacement
CFast 2.0 + UHS-II bus SD memory card slots
Between 24-51MP
ISO 100-51,200; Expansion to 204,800
Around 10fps
Same AF as 1D X Mark II
4K resolution video
Single DIGIC 6+
Built-in GPS, WiFi, Bluetooth or NFC
MSRP of between $2,500-3,400
Ships before December 2016


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 8, 2016)

dolina said:


> Between 24-51MP



Now that's a specific guess!


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## dolina (Mar 8, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> dolina said:
> 
> 
> > Between 24-51MP
> ...


Someone has to make you react.


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## darynthe (Mar 8, 2016)

Hi everyone I'm new to the forum. Thanks for keeping these discussions and rumors!

I wanted to chip in and mention that I am anxious for an upgrade for my 6d. I may even consider the 5d IV if comes before even if pricey, I am just sick of the focusing system in my 6d!! If only there was a way to update just the focusing system... (Otherwise the best camera ever.)

I am just missing great shots with my 85L 1.2 which is my favorite lens. I wonder if it would do better with something like the 1dx MII (out of my budget of course).

Is there any hope of a great AF in the 6DII?


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## MrFotoFool (Mar 8, 2016)

darynthe said:


> Hi everyone I'm new to the forum. Thanks for keeping these discussions and rumors!
> 
> I wanted to chip in and mention that I am anxious for an upgrade for my 6d. I may even consider the 5d IV if comes before even if pricey, I am just sick of the focusing system in my 6d!! If only there was a way to update just the focusing system... (Otherwise the best camera ever.)
> 
> ...



I have no experience with 6D, but I traded in my 5d2 for the 5d3 (on sale a while back) because of the focus. The 5d2 had poor autofocus with a tracking (AI) mode that was literally unusable. The 5D3 focus is great and this may be the last SLR I buy. If and when the 6D2 comes out, I imagine it will be just as good.

I should also note that some say the 85L does not have as good autofocus as other Canon lenses (I have not used one myself).


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## midluk (Mar 8, 2016)

dolina said:


> CFast 2.0 + UHS-II bus SD memory card slots


No, it will only have UHS-I, just to annoy you (but it will write up to 90MiB/s to SD).


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## tron (Mar 8, 2016)

midluk said:


> dolina said:
> 
> 
> > CFast 2.0 + UHS-II bus SD memory card slots
> ...


And to annoy even more it will also have CF (but it will write up to 150MB/s to CF). 

;D ;D ;D

P.S On the positive side existing 5D3 users will not have to upgrade their cards 8)


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## slclick (Mar 8, 2016)

tron said:


> midluk said:
> 
> 
> > dolina said:
> ...



Seriously, I love not having body G.A.S. Now lenses...that's quite different.


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## jeffa4444 (Mar 8, 2016)

darynthe said:


> Hi everyone I'm new to the forum. Thanks for keeping these discussions and rumors!
> 
> I wanted to chip in and mention that I am anxious for an upgrade for my 6d. I may even consider the 5d IV if comes before even if pricey, I am just sick of the focusing system in my 6d!! If only there was a way to update just the focusing system... (Otherwise the best camera ever.)
> 
> ...



I really believe Canon made the 6D as a full-frame travel camera with a reduced specification to offer it at a price point just north of the 70D. It AF has never been as issue for me as I use it for landscape and travel and part of that is manual focus. It does have a great sensor for its price point and IQ wise is equal & in some cases better than the 5D MKIII (low light). Its not an action camera and doesnt have the AF control that the 5D MKIII / 5DS has. What I would expect is the MKII version gets 45 all cross type AF like they have just announced on the 80D anything less and they will be lambasted and rightly so given its still well short of the 61 points on the 5D series and 1DX series. 
The 6D is one of my all time favorite Canon cameras its ideal as a mix between full frame & lighter weight but rugged construction with the added benefit of wi-fi and GPS both of which are missing on the 5D MKIII and the newer 5DS.


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## darynthe (Mar 8, 2016)

MrFotoFool said:


> I should also note that some say the 85L does not have as good autofocus as other Canon lenses (I have not used one myself).



You're totally right there, this is the reason. You cannot use the recompose technique with this lens at 1.2
So children portraiture is extremely difficult, for instance as the 6d has only 9 AF points and just one cross-type.
To be honest it wasn't a problem with me before....


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## darynthe (Mar 8, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> What I would expect is the MKII version gets 45 all cross type AF like they have just announced on the 80D anything less and they will be lambasted and rightly so given its still well short of the 61 points on the 5D series and 1DX series.
> The 6D is one of my all time favorite Canon cameras its ideal as a mix between full frame & lighter weight but rugged construction with the added benefit of wi-fi and GPS both of which are missing on the 5D MKIII and the newer 5DS.



You think so? It would be so amazing to have like even 25 points really spread around. I love the lightness of my 6D and you're dead on the IQ. As in it seems that the sensor is a tiny bit better than the 5D MIII as per DxO. I guess I will have to try to sell it before the new 6D is announced I am sure the prices will drop like rocks if they really improve AF.


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## sabeast (Mar 8, 2016)

OR just get the sony a7rii??


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## scyrene (Mar 8, 2016)

sabeast said:


> OR just get the sony a7rii??



Sure, because *that's* a viable alternative to the 5DIII.


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## scyrene (Mar 9, 2016)

dilbert said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > sabeast said:
> ...



For some. But not without qualification


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## slclick (Mar 9, 2016)

scyrene said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...


"and all this camera needs is a fuse..."


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## sabeast (Mar 9, 2016)

This camera is better than the 5d mark iii, how is it not? Possibly better then the next 5d/x.


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## slclick (Mar 9, 2016)

sabeast said:


> This camera is better than the 5d mark iii, how is it not? Possibly better then the next 5d/x.



I love magical spec beaters!


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## bdunbar79 (Mar 9, 2016)

slclick said:


> sabeast said:
> 
> 
> > This camera is better than the 5d mark iii, how is it not? Possibly better then the next 5d/x.
> ...



Shoot sports with both using a 400 f/2.8L II IS and you will quickly see how the 5D3 is better in one regard.


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## sabeast (Mar 9, 2016)

Look at megapixel comparison with price comparison.


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## bdunbar79 (Mar 9, 2016)

sabeast said:


> Look at megapixel comparison with price comparison.



Who cares?? If my job is to shoot sports, if my paycheck comes from action shots, who cares? Which one would you choose if all of your income came from sports? Well, neither. You'd get a 1Dx and use a 5D3 for backup. You would NOT use the Sony.


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## bdunbar79 (Mar 9, 2016)

So, you asked how the 5D3 was better, and I told you. There's your answer.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 9, 2016)

sabeast said:


> Look at megapixel comparison with price comparison.



So, you're primary camera is the Nokia Lumia 1020, right? By your criterion, it's much better than the Sony a7RII. :


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## Ozarker (Mar 9, 2016)

bdunbar79 said:


> So, you asked how the 5D3 was better, and I told you. There's your answer.



I agree. Can I ask... You said if a person gets all their income from sports you'd get a 1DX and then 5D III as backup. That sounds good to me. 

Just wondering... If you could swing two 1DX cameras and have a 1DX as backup to your 1DX, would you? I realize that you might shoot other things other than sports for fun. That's why I ask.

Thanks!


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## wockawocka (Mar 9, 2016)

sabeast said:


> OR just get the sony a7rii??



The best way to describe shooting with an A7rii is to imagine yourself trying to shave without a mirror, so you use the front facing camera on an iphone instead to see what you're doing.


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## scyrene (Mar 9, 2016)

sabeast said:


> Look at megapixel comparison with price comparison.



Trolololll...

If you think megapixels per price is the way to judge a camera, you must the the 1Dx II and D5 are the worst cameras in the world.


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## bdunbar79 (Mar 9, 2016)

CanonFanBoy said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > So, you asked how the 5D3 was better, and I told you. There's your answer.
> ...



Great question, actually! I did have a 1Dx for main camera and 5D3 as backup for awhile. Then I sold my 5D3 and got a 2nd 1Dx and currently do shoot that way, a pair of 1Dx's. I enjoyed the 5D3 for tennis and golf, because you could use the silent shutter mode, but for tennis the fps was better on the 1Dx. Didn't matter for golf.


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## bdunbar79 (Mar 9, 2016)

I also know a few NFL guys who shoot the game action with a pair of 1Dx's and do the pre-game/locker room/post-game stuff with a 5D3. The tracking seems to be nearly as good. I probably got just as high of a % hit rate with it, albeit lower fps.


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## Ozarker (Mar 9, 2016)

bdunbar79 said:


> I also know a few NFL guys who shoot the game action with a pair of 1Dx's and do the pre-game/locker room/post-game stuff with a 5D3. The tracking seems to be nearly as good. I probably got just as high of a % hit rate with it, albeit lower fps.



Thanks!


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## jeffa4444 (Mar 9, 2016)

sabeast said:


> OR just get the sony a7rii??


We rent cameras for a living if you think the only criteria is the sensor your way off the mark. The Sony A7RII and its brothers do a certain job but ergonomically they are way behind Canon & Nikon and if we were forced to chose between the 5D MKIII or the Sony A7RII the Canon from a revenue point of view would win out every time. 
No question Sony make some of the best sensors in the world the Sony F65 & F55 are testament to that but by comparison to Arri ergonomically the crew preffer Arri and thus its the case with Canon 5D MKIII.


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## AvTvM (Mar 9, 2016)

dilbert said:


> wockawocka said:
> 
> 
> > sabeast said:
> ...



LOL Dilbert! ftw ;D


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## Hector1970 (Mar 9, 2016)

So if I used a dedicated profile in Lightroom noise and downsample the file I'll get an image better than a 5DIII image on my 5DSR.
That doesn't sound too good or too practical. Maybe if I stand on my head the picture will look better too.
I personally think Canon stretched the 5DSR and 7DII sensor too far in maximizing MP's.
It was really a race to 50MP.
I think the 5DIV will be a better all round camera.
Maybe it's too simplistic to judge photos as they appear out of the camera. In high ISO the 5DIII is better making the 5DSR limited to low ISO use where it performs very well. 
But again I think the 5DIII camera is a great camera and probably all most photographers will ever need.
Grab one while you can if you are thinking of moving to full frame.



Maiaibing said:


> Hector1970 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd find the 5DIII much better than than the 5DSR (which I assume is like a 5DS) in low light.
> ...


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## scyrene (Mar 10, 2016)

Hector1970 said:


> So if I used a dedicated profile in Lightroom noise and downsample the file I'll get an image better than a 5DIII image on my 5DSR.
> That doesn't sound too good or too practical. Maybe if I stand on my head the picture will look better too.
> I personally think Canon stretched the 5DSR and 7DII sensor too far in maximizing MP's.
> It was really a race to 50MP.
> ...



Well using a profile is just good practice, according to some (I don't, perhaps I should) - it's certainly the case the different software produces different results, and if quality is paramount, finding the best is worthwhile. And downsampling is surely a normal part of the process of outputting images for people to see? I certainly never post full sized images online. But as for preferences, it's a matter of taste. From the comparison files I've seen, there's not much in it between these two cameras.


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