# Industry News: Sony officially announces the Alpha A7s III



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 28, 2020)

> SAN DIEGO – July 28, 2020 –Today, Sony Electronics Inc. announced the long-awaited addition to its acclaimed Alpha 7S full-frame mirrorless camera series⁠ — the Alpha 7S III (model ILCE-7SM3).
> Featuring a brand new 12.1MP (approx., effective) back-illuminated full-frame image sensor with ultra-high sensitivity and 15+ stop wide dynamic rangeii, a host of impressive video recording capabilities including 4K 120pi and 10-bit 4:2:2 color depth, a new heat-dissipating mechanism, dual-slot relay recording enabling over one-hour of 4K 60p movie shooting, a new autofocus system, and touch screen interface and side flip LCD screen, the new Alpha 7S III will become the ultimate creative tool for video professionals and all types of hybrid still/video shooters.
> *Preorder the Sony Alpha a7s III at Adorama*
> 
> “The Alpha 7S III is the ultimate representation of Sony’s passion to solve our customers’ pain...



Continue reading...


----------



## Chaz320 (Jul 28, 2020)

Pretty good specs


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 28, 2020)

Chaz320 said:


> Pretty good specs




Are they really? I'm not a hardcore video shooter so I'm dumber than the average bear when it comes to stuff like this but to me it seems like a lot of money for that camera.

I see it can shoot 4K60P for over an hour so that's a good thing if that's something you need. So kudos.

What is so appealing that makes it worth that kind of money - and I'm not being sarcastic - a compare and contrast in an 'explain it like I'm five' kind of way would be very helpful.


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 28, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> What is so appealing that makes it worth that kind of money - and I'm not being sarcastic - a compare and contrast in an 'explain it like I'm five' kind of way would be very helpful.




You can run 4K longer without overheating, I'm guessing. #iamastillsguy #iknownothing

Surely low light as well

- A


----------



## DrToast (Jul 28, 2020)

No built in heater like the R5? Lame.


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 28, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> You can run 4K longer without overheating, I'm guessing. #iamastillsguy #iknownothing
> 
> Surely low light as well
> 
> - A




Yeah - I edited my post to reflect that as well - I guess that's a good thing if you're big into using a little camera like this for making movies/interviews/weddings or whatnot.

I'm sure there is something revolutionary here I'm just not smart enough to know what that is.

Good tip on the low light - I saw that and it sort of bounced off because it isn't something that comes into play for me.


----------



## robotfist (Jul 28, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> What is so appealing that makes it worth that kind of money - and I'm not being sarcastic - a compare and contrast in an 'explain it like I'm five' kind of way would be very helpful.



For video shooters, who this camera is targeted for, it can shoot continuous 4k, 10bit , 422, with a full pixel readout and no crop in all shooting modes including at 120 fps. It's got an ISO range from 80 - 409,600 so it will more than likely continue its status as the lowlight king. These are all very good specs.

And more importantly, it is designed not to overheat.

I'm not a Sony person. I'm a Canon guy and have been for over a decade. But I'm a video shooter, and it's been a frustrating ride with Canon. When it comes to video, Sony beat the R series with this release.

Some video shots showing the lowlight capabilities. Looks great...


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 28, 2020)

DrToast said:


> No built in heater like the R5? Lame.




Yeah. No stills capability either unless you need 'game boy' sized images circa 2008. Lame.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 28, 2020)

DrToast said:


> No built in heater like the R5? Lame.



Oh yes they included that.


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 28, 2020)

robotfist said:


> For video shooters, who this camera is targeted for, it can shoot continuous 4k, 10bit , 422, with a full pixel readout and no crop in all shooting modes including at 120 fps. It's got an ISO range from 80 - 409,600 so it will more than likely continue its status as the lowlight king. These are all very good specs.
> 
> And more importantly, it is designed not to overheat.
> 
> ...




The release says it can do 4K60P for over an hour. I see nothing about 4K120 limitations.

" even during extended continuous recording sessions at 4K 60p 10-bit 4:2:2 video lasting an hour or more. "

If so, good. And I get the low light thing - I imagine that is attributable in part to their small sensor design. Dunno.

I guess you really need to be a player to understand the game.

Thanks for the info!


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 28, 2020)

Moving this from another thread. Sorry for the double post:

--

So Sony pulled a canon and took 5 years to perfect a body, and Canon pulled a Sony and crammed too many specs into a body.

I'm really curious what Canon's eventual response will be:
- Continue to pursue hybrids with adequate specs for both video and stills, leaving video workloads to the C-X00 line
- Build an RF "SLR" style video camera with lower mp that's more video-focused
- Put the 45mp 8K sensor into a larger body (XC style or something more like the S1H) with better thermals, codecs, HDMIs, etc, etc

For all the hype about hybrid cameras there have been very, very few that actually do it well. The reality is the video world wants 12-20mp and the new bar for non-PJ work is quickly going to be around 50 with the Z7, R5 and A7R all hanging out at 45+


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 28, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Are they really? I'm not a hardcore video shooter so I'm dumber than the average bear when it comes to stuff like this but to me it seems like a lot of money for that camera.
> 
> I see it can shoot 4K60P for over an hour so that's a good thing if that's something you need. So kudos.
> 
> What is so appealing that makes it worth that kind of money - and I'm not being sarcastic - a compare and contrast in an 'explain it like I'm five' kind of way would be very helpful.



Higher quality video. With the lower res sensor, it's really focused on great 4K. The oversampled 4k on the R5 will be better but comes with a ton of asterisks around heat, rolling shutter, etc. Sony's promising those big pixels mean low rolling shutter, great video dynamic range, longer shooting times before hitting thermal limits. This is exactly the camera that video shooters seem to want canon to build. (And, honestly, the R6 should have been a lot closer to this)


----------



## 12Broncos (Jul 28, 2020)

I wait for reviews before deciding, but this looks enticing.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 28, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Oh yes they included that.
> 
> View attachment 191621


So ok to mention Sony overheating (after an hour?), but everyone gangs up on ya if you mention Canon overheating at 20 minutes....then 3 minutes...


----------



## NorskHest (Jul 28, 2020)

robotfist said:


> For video shooters, who this camera is targeted for, it can shoot continuous 4k, 10bit , 422, with a full pixel readout and no crop in all shooting modes including at 120 fps. It's got an ISO range from 80 - 409,600 so it will more than likely continue its status as the lowlight king. These are all very good specs.
> 
> And more importantly, it is designed not to overheat.
> 
> ...


I can honestly say I am going to buy this camera, Canon has officially shit the bed with a hybrid camera. If the 1DX didn’t have a record limit And 4k120 I would be purchasing that for a all around camera. This thing honestly looks Pretty amazing, I have been saying for a while along with many other people I don’t care about insanely higher resolutions just give us a really good 4K and I think Sony has delivered that, I will still keep my 1DC’s and a lot of my other stuff but this thing is going to be an awesome tool to have. It’s weird seeing canon push the envelope and have reliability issues and now we are seeing Sony becoming the reliable workhorse.


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Higher quality video. With the lower res sensor, it's really focused on great 4K. The oversampled 4k on the R5 will be better but comes with a ton of asterisks around heat, rolling shutter, etc. Sony's promising those big pixels mean low rolling shutter, great video dynamic range, longer shooting times before hitting thermal limits. This is exactly the camera that video shooters seem to want canon to build. (And, honestly, the R6 should have been a lot closer to this)




I don't disagree at all - I guess I'm just not there yet.

My wife just explained it to me this way: 

Some people look at photos that come out of a cell phone and think they look great. Photographers look at photos that come out of a cell phone and all they see are the faults. I'm guilty of this. Cell phone photos are better than they used to be but TO ME they don't compare with a dedicated stills camera.

I guess video specs are the same to the guys that are heavily into that. I just look at $3,500 dollars for this and wonder why people don't just buy a dedicated video camera whose whole purpose in life is to shoot video? I guess there aren't many options with these features at that price point.


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 28, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> I can honestly say I am going to buy this camera, Canon has officially shit the bed with a hybrid camera. If the 1DX didn’t have a record limit And 4k120 I would be purchasing that for a all around camera. This thing honestly looks Pretty amazing, I have been saying for a while along with many other people I don’t care about insanely higher resolutions just give us a really good 4K and I think Sony has delivered that, I will still keep my 1DC’s and a lot of my other stuff but this thing is going to be an awesome tool to have. It’s weird seeing canon push the envelope and have reliability issues and now we are seeing Sony becoming the reliable workhorse.




Hopefully you'll keep all of us over here at 'BRAND X' up to date on how you like it!


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 28, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> I can honestly say I am going to buy this camera, Canon has officially shit the bed with a hybrid camera. If the 1DX didn’t have a record limit And 4k120 I would be purchasing that for a all around camera. This thing honestly looks Pretty amazing, I have been saying for a while along with many other people I don’t care about insanely higher resolutions just give us a really good 4K and I think Sony has delivered that, I will still keep my 1DC’s and a lot of my other stuff but this thing is going to be an awesome tool to have. It’s weird seeing canon push the envelope and have reliability issues and now we are seeing Sony becoming the reliable workhorse.


Sony definitely seems like a better deal on the video part!
Much more reliable and of course "usable".
It's a shame. Was really hoping Canon would finally create a camera that added IBIS and no crop 4K. And they did, but then went backwards with the unpredictable over heating. Sucks.


----------



## azizjhn (Jul 28, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> So ok to mention Sony overheating (after an hour?), but everyone gangs up on ya if you mention Canon overheating at 20 minutes....then 3 minutes...


No my friend it is actually overheated after 23mins at 4k60 even overheated before the R5 which is strange


----------



## jayphotoworks (Jul 28, 2020)

I pre-ordered one. It suits my style of hybrid shooting quite well. I always felt the ideal hybrid MILC was one with a balanced set of specs. Don't need RAW, don't want high-bitrates, don't need 8K. When I need those specs, I have my cine camera along with the budget and crew to support it. Here is what I like about shooting video on Sony, which continues with the S3.

- Single interface for audio. No need for dangling 3.5mm cables
- Dual card recording for redundancy and no need for new media immediately. My V90 UHS-II cards continue to work and I only need to carry 1 type of media.
- Base ISO and Max ISO. Many event halls, etc. have poor lighting which you cannot always control
- No overheating for obvious reasons
- White balance sensor to prevent rapid shifts when subjects fill the frame
- Large EVF for framing outdoors when a sunhood over the lcd doesn't always work.
- Selectable S&Q highspeed in base frame rate or actual frame rate to include audio which is sometimes imperative when editing a cinematic highlight and a long edit w/ sound. It's also easier in post to quickly identify all of your high speed clips and group them separately.
- Real-time AF (I never upgraded to the RIV, but I have a A6600 and ZV1 which are similar)
- Great battery life. I hated the FW50 batteries, but a bit more than 2 FZ100 batteries gets me through a very long day. I don't think the LP-E6NH last as long, but the Canon's draw more power as the Wh are almost identical.

In other areas, some reviews show ~13 stops on a test which is better than the R5 at ~11. The rolling shutter seems to be a bit better on the R5, but it wasn't apparent which modes were compared. Line skipped will probably readout faster than the 1:1 on the Sony but at a big cost of IQ. But at the end of the day, the Sony doesn't have 45MP and isn't great for stills. I would need two bodies to cover video (S3) and stills (RIV).

It's all a mess of compromises...


----------



## BeenThere (Jul 28, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> I can honestly say I am going to buy this camera, Canon has officially shit the bed with a hybrid camera. If the 1DX didn’t have a record limit And 4k120 I would be purchasing that for a all around camera. This thing honestly looks Pretty amazing, I have been saying for a while along with many other people I don’t care about insanely higher resolutions just give us a really good 4K and I think Sony has delivered that, I will still keep my 1DC’s and a lot of my other stuff but this thing is going to be an awesome tool to have. It’s weird seeing canon push the envelope and have reliability issues and now we are seeing Sony becoming the reliable workhorse.


Exactly the way purchasing decisions should be made. Get what works best for you in your situation. Nobody knows your needs better than you. Go forth and make great videos.


----------



## addola (Jul 28, 2020)

Impressive camera from Sony, and it doesn't overheat when shooting video, apparently!

AF detection down to -6 EV @ f/2.0 is crazy impressive! Compared to the R6, that means it can focus in conditions that are a stop darker because the R6 is rated @ f/1.2, granted this is a 12 MP camera vs a 20 MP sensor.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 28, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> So ok to mention Sony overheating (after an hour?), but everyone gangs up on ya if you mention Canon overheating at 20 minutes....then 3 minutes...


People are shooting over an hour of video on the R5 and R6, just not at the highest frame rates and resolution, forum and media posting would have you believe that isn't possible. People might be limited to shooting 3min of 8k AFTER an hour of being in a high frame rate continuous shooting situation with 1,100 shots and 120Hz screen use, that doesn't sound like an unrealistic performance limit for a 5 series, I'd expect a 1 series to never stop so would not expect to see current 8k in it!

Personally I think everything is fair game, I don't care when something will stop working, Canon or Sony, I just assume that is a performance limit but I do want to know when it will stop working. If I schedule a 90 minute interview and want to shoot long form then I need to know my camera can shoot video for over 90mins, no Canon hybrids can they are all limited to 29:59, simple, a Canon isn't the tool for that job.


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 28, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> I don't disagree at all - I guess I'm just not there yet.
> 
> My wife just explained it to me this way:
> 
> ...



There's nothing at this price point and form factor. I honestly have no idea why video shooters love the SLR style so much—they're designed for viewfinder use—but they do seem to so who am I to argue.


----------



## Pape (Jul 28, 2020)

Maybe canon still makes model bit like this someday 
12mpixel super computing photogrpahy camera what can do 4k for movie peoples too as side effect.


----------



## TomR (Jul 28, 2020)

Sony just shat directly down canons throat


----------



## HenryL (Jul 28, 2020)

TomR said:


> Sony just shat directly down canons throat


Hardly...


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Jul 28, 2020)

So they really went for the daft smaller CF Express A cards. Seems like they are set on small bodies and going to a different memory card standard than the big boys.


----------



## CarlMillerPhoto (Jul 28, 2020)

This is sure to be an amazing camera. I was tempted to cancel my R5 order, but as a 75% video/25% photo guy, I simply can't photograph a high-end wedding with 12mp.

And while I can't speak for others, I'm not hesitant to shoot professional video with the R5. I'm doubtful any of my paying clients could tell a difference between the regular 4k (which doesn't overheat) and the "HQ" over-sampled mode (a mode that has to be turned on...R5 4k/24p overheating doesn't just happen out of the box like most are thinking). And my suspicion is that 90% of those furiously complaining about overheating couldn't spot the difference without a side-by-side comparison. Surely nobody on a low-res (1080) monitor or on their phone is. Do I wish the HQ mode didn't overheat? You betcha. But I'm glad Canon gave it to us with limitation rather than not at all.

I'm also surprised nobody is talking about the oversampled 4k crop mode on the R5 (which has no overheating issues). For best quality video (and constant reliability) I foresee myself using this mode almost exclusively. Super35 fov, with DPAF, oversampled 5.1k into 4k, 10 bit 4::2:2 C-log..... Everyone running around with super shallow DOF on the FF hype train has given it somewhat amateur associations IMO. I'm a big fan of stopping down a bit on S35 and letting composition and lighting do the cinematic lifting. Most movies are shot on S35, afterall.

Ultimately, very few people are going to be limited by what they can do creatively, or the revenue they can generate professionally, with almost any camera from any manufacturer these days. These are incredible tools across the board. As a hybrid shooter though, the R5 still seems the best option. Hoping mine arrives this week to thoroughly test.


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 28, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> People are shooting over an hour of video on the R5 and R6, just not at the highest frame rates and resolution, forum and media posting would have you believe that isn't possible. People might be limited to shooting 3min of 8k AFTER an hour of being in a high frame rate continuous shooting situation with 1,100 shots and 120Hz screen use, that doesn't sound like an unrealistic performance limit for a 5 series, I'd expect a 1 series to never stop so would not expect to see current 8k in it!
> 
> Personally I think everything is fair game, I don't care when something will stop working, Canon or Sony, I just assume that is a performance limit but I do want to know when it will stop working. If I schedule a 90 minute interview and want to shoot long form then I need to know my camera can shoot video for over 90mins, no Canon hybrids can they are all limited to 29:59, simple, a Canon isn't the tool for that job.



This is the great irony here. The R5 has video performance that's on par with everything else in it's class—Z7, A7R4, Leica, etc. That is, soft/aliased full frame and great S35 performance. The IBIS is a bit aggressive for wide angle shooting, but it's got great AF. There are a few issues though:

- First, Canon screwed up with the release here. Hindsight is 20/20, but they should have shoved half the video modes into a custom function and not hyped up this being all things to all people.
- Second, folks want the R5 to be that "be all end all" camera because Canon doesn't have an answer here other than spend 2x as much for a cinema body. It's again making it look like canon either "can't" do these things or "doesn't want" to do these things to protect a cinema cam line.
- Lastly, the R6 is in a really tough spot. It's low res for 2020, but that could be forgiven if it was hitting the DR and rolling shutter performance of the A7SIII. And because of the body construction, it's got some thermal issues.

--

Took a quick break to watch Gerald's video. Canon really needs to stay on their toes here. Sony continues to make inroads on every complaint area—menus, EVF, ergonomics, autofocus, and they are clearly continuing to work hard on sensor fabs. If I'm Canon, I'm very concerned about what an A7R5 starts to look like.

--

The issue here is that everyone is in a total state of flux with the new mounts. If I'm a hybrid shooter on an A7R4 and need video capabilities, I know I can pick up a second body that tucks into my bag and uses the same cards, batteries, accessories. An R5 shooter doesn't have that option right now. In the past, you could do lean on Canon stills and Sony video, all using EF. But as EF shooters move to RF, that flexibility is gone. You start to look a lot more locked in to your system, and the Sony system is finally looking attractive.


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 28, 2020)

TomR said:


> Sony just shat directly down canons throat



So you're expecting the A7R4 to be discontinued today?


----------



## TomR (Jul 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> So you're expecting the A7R4 to be discontinued today?



Obviously talking about the video side. I'm sure the stills are great on the r5, but that's all it is, once you start shooting stills you can't go to video cause the camera is overheated.

On the flip side 12 mpx is enough for me cause I only post photos to social. If you shoot prints the Sony is obviously not the camera for you


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 28, 2020)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> I'm also surprised nobody is talking about the oversampled 4k crop mode on the R5 (which has no overheating issues). For best quality video (and constant reliability) I foresee myself using this mode almost exclusively. Super35 fov, with DPAF, oversampled 5.1k into 4k, 10 bit 4::2:2 C-log..... Everyone running around with super shallow DOF on the FF hype train has given it somewhat amateur associations IMO. I'm a big fan of stopping down a bit on S35 and letting composition and lighting do the cinematic lifting. Most movies are shot on S35, afterall.



I'm about 90% stills, 10% video and see myself using the S35 crop almost exclusively. Especially now that I can mount an EF-S lens—I have an 10-22 that's been hiding in a drawer for the last 4 years.


----------



## NorskHest (Jul 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> There's nothing at this price point and form factor. I honestly have no idea why video shooters love the SLR style so much—they're designed for viewfinder use—but they do seem to so who am I to argue.


I film a lot of protest and political content, the ability to do foto and video is indespensible as a freelancer. I sell footage and go into places most don't so to have both is a must. Here in Minneapolis I was out shooting and my 16-35 and 1dc were hit by rubber bullets, amazing the lens was ok and so was the body. They were not point blank but there was a blunt object that hit them. There is no denying that there is a place and time for all sorts of cameras but the low light of this a7 camera will allow for cleaner and more usable content. While out filming protests I witnessed people tying to steal news crews big cameras and people tried taking mine aswell but a slr style body is something tou can actually hold and run with if you need to. Will a sony take a betting like a 1d? probably not but to have both is a great thing. on a side not all these great tools coming out we never could have dreamed of, there is often so much anger and shit talk from our tribalism that we dont actually look and the genius ehind the tech. if you shoot sony thats great, if you shoot canon, thats great too. we should stop always fighting and just start capturing and using and adapting the tools that best suit us. and here is a link of what i shoot.
https://www.fox9.com/news/the-fall-of-the-third-precinct-a-timeline-of-events


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> This is the great irony here. The R5 has video performance that's on par with everything else in it's class—Z7, A7R4, Leica, etc. That is, soft/aliased full frame and great S35 performance. The IBIS is a bit aggressive for wide angle shooting, but it's got great AF. There are a few issues though:
> 
> - First, Canon screwed up with the release here. Hindsight is 20/20, but they should have shoved half the video modes into a custom function and not hyped up this being all things to all people.
> - Second, folks want the R5 to be that "be all end all" camera because Canon doesn't have an answer here other than spend 2x as much for a cinema body. It's again making it look like canon either "can't" do these things or "doesn't want" to do these things to protect a cinema cam line.
> ...


Canon don't need to do anything, the R5 and the sleeper R6 are going to be hits with primarily photographers, Sony look like they have done a very accomplished incremental upgrade in the α7S III, but it is overwhelmingly a video camera and less a hybrid.

I don't see any competition at all if you know what market you are in the choice is pretty clear. Unfortunately for Canon most YouTube personalities and social media influencers are in the Sony video centric market, they shoot video and don't care about stills resolution over 1080px instagram posts, but I do not believe they represent the market in general. I have zero need for an α7S III, I will be getting an R5.

Indeed even comparing the α7S III and R5 is intrinsically biased (one way or the other) as their feature sets are as diametrically opposed as possible. Compare the R5 to the α7R IV, compare the R6 to the α7 III, truthfully Canon haven't pitched a video centric hybrid in the α7S III market.


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 28, 2020)

TomR said:


> Obviously talking about the video side. I'm sure the stills are great on the r5, but that's all it is, once you start shooting stills you can't go to video cause the camera is overheated.
> 
> On the flip side 12 mpx is enough for me cause I only post photos to social. If you shoot prints the Sony is obviously not the camera for you



Hmm, see that's a lot more nuanced than "shat down canons throat" and is a proposition I'm in total agreement with. The A7S3 is great for video but won't hit my needs as a photographer. The R5 is great for stills, but doesn't hit the needs of pro video shooters. A 12 MP instagram post looks lousy on printed at A3+. The soft 4k from the canon's full frame 4K will look pretty great on instagram, but crappy if you're targeting 4K TV delivery.

No quarter to canon hyping up the 8k, but these are different cameras.


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 28, 2020)

azizjhn said:


> No my friend it is actually overheated after 23mins at 4k60 even overheated before the R5 which is strange




Not so strange perhaps. It'll be interesting to see what the reviewers experience when they start putting the camera through its paces.

Another user here stated that this camera can do 4K120 with no limits or overheating but I can't find anything that supports that assertion.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 28, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Not so strange perhaps. It'll be interesting to see what the reviewers experience when they start putting the camera through its paces.
> 
> Another user here stated that this camera can do 4K120 with no limits or overheating but I can't find anything that supports that assertion.


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 28, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Canon don't need to do anything, the R5 and the sleeper R6 are going to be hits with primarily photographers, Sony look like they have done a very accomplished incremental upgrade in the α7S III, but it is overwhelmingly a video camera not a hybrid.
> 
> I don't see any competition at all if you know what market you are in the choice is pretty clear. Unfortunately for Canon most YouTube personalities and social media influencers are in the Sony video centric market, they shoot video and don't care about stills resolution over 1080px instagram posts, but I do not believe they represent the market in general. I have zero need for an α7S III, I will be getting an R5.
> 
> Indeed even comparing the α7S III and R5 is intrinsically biased (one way or the other) as their feature sets are as diametrically opposed as possible. Compare the R5 to the α7R IV, compare the R6 to the α7 III, truthfully Canon haven't pitched a video centric hybrid in the α7S III market.



I think they should release a video focused camera in the ILC form factor. Either high MP with cooling in a bigger body, or low MP in the R style body. I don't know that canon has the sensor for the latter. (There's a whole sidebar about the volume advantage Sony has here but I digress). I don't know if that's an XC-R, a R5c, or what.

I, as a Canon shooter about to invest heavily in RF over the next few years (100-500, then an UWA zoom, then go back and replace the EF 24-70 and 70-200), am starting to wonder what an A7R5 will be. I still don't like the aesthetics of Sony/Fuji/Leica (heresy, I know) but with the A7SIII it looks like Sony's got the ergonomics stuff nailed.

Edit: One other note. As I've said I'm 90% stills, and will rent a video body if need be. If I move to RF, I can't rent into the Sony video system anymore without also needing lenses. In the past I'd just grab a metabones and not worry about it. The mount changes are throwing some serious uncertainty into the world for me.


----------



## H. Jones (Jul 28, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> truthfully Canon haven't pitched a video centric hybrid in the α7S III market.



I'm very interested to see if this is what the coming RF mount camera will be. It could make a lot of sense for Canon to turn the C100 pricepoint into a video-centric hybrid, versus cinema-only, with this in mind. The XC-10 did 12 mp photographs alongside 4K video, which was definitely a slight attempt towards a hybrid. 

I definitely don't think Canon would lose much of anything by allowing a 12 megapixel C100 RF mount replacement to also shoot stills now that Sony has pushed ahead with a 12 megapixel A7SIII.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I think they should release a video focused camera in the ILC form factor. Either high MP with cooling in a bigger body, or low MP in the R style body. I don't know that canon has the sensor for the latter. (There's a whole sidebar about the volume advantage Sony has here but I digress). I don't know if that's an XC-R, a R5c, or what.
> 
> I, as a Canon shooter about to invest heavily in RF over the next few years (100-500, then an UWA zoom, then go back and replace the EF 24-70 and 70-200), am starting to wonder what an A7R5 will be. I still don't like the aesthetics of Sony/Fuji/Leica (heresy, I know) but with the A7SIII it looks like Sony's got the ergonomics stuff nailed.





H. Jones said:


> I'm very interested to see if this is what the coming RF mount camera will be. It could make a lot of sense for Canon to turn the C100 pricepoint into a video-centric hybrid, versus cinema-only, with this in mind. The XC-10 did 12 mp photographs alongside 4K video, which was definitely a slight attempt towards a hybrid.
> 
> I definitely don't think Canon would lose much of anything by allowing a 12 megapixel C100 RF mount replacement to also shoot stills now that Sony has pushed ahead with a 12 megapixel A7SIII.


I'm not saying it would be a bad thing for Canon to do, just pointing out they haven't actually done it so drawing comparisons between very dissimilar models is fraught with bias (depending on if you are photo or video centric not brand wise) so it is disingenuous at best.


----------



## Max TT (Jul 28, 2020)

DrToast said:


> No built in heater like the R5? Lame.


LOL very poor for the winter months


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 28, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


>




That's one experience and I had already read about the 4K60 capability. I was more curious about the claim that it could also do 4K120 the same way.

If I were someone who actually had a reason to shoot an uninterrupted 2 hour 'take' of 4K60P video (how big is that file again? I have no idea...) then this would excite me.

As a person who occasionally shoots a bunch of little things and then edits them together for purely recreational purposes this camera is completely unexciting to me.

I get the wedding shooters (sort of - I guess there is money in it but I can't think of a worse way to spend my life then to be at the whim of a couple getting married...... ACK! ) and the people that are somehow using this feature to make money (but I don't know what that could be that would need these incredibly long 'takes') but I cite my ignorance on the subject and will keep learning out of pure curiosity.


----------



## jedy (Jul 28, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> I guess video specs are the same to the guys that are heavily into that. I just look at $3,500 dollars for this and wonder why people don't just buy a dedicated video camera whose whole purpose in life is to shoot video? I guess there aren't many options with these features at that price point.


And $3899 for a stills camera with some limited video capability is a good price? Your argument doesn’t add up. The R5 and A7SIII are very expensive and there are cheaper alternatives if you can live with the specs for your needs. You also sound a little rattled by the A7SIII release, trying to find fault like you’re convincing yourself it’s a bad camera.


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 28, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I'm not saying it would be a bad thing for Canon to do, just pointing out they haven't actually done it so drawing comparisons between very dissimilar models is fraught with bias (depending on if you are photo or video centric not brand wise) so it is disingenuous at best.



Oh for sure—100%. Again, Sony's not discontinuing the A7R4 today! Just saying the wrinkle here is that Canon pitched the R5 as a no compromises hybrid, and while there's always wiggle room for tea-reading marketing statements, that's not really the camera we got.


----------



## Krispy (Jul 28, 2020)

Looks cool, but ehh. I shoot Canon personally and Sony at work. If we gets these in, cool. If not, ehh.


----------



## NorskHest (Jul 28, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> I'm very interested to see if this is what the coming RF mount camera will be. It could make a lot of sense for Canon to turn the C100 pricepoint into a video-centric hybrid, versus cinema-only, with this in mind. The XC-10 did 12 mp photographs alongside 4K video, which was definitely a slight attempt towards a hybrid.
> 
> I definitely don't think Canon would lose much of anything by allowing a 12 megapixel C100 RF mount replacement to also shoot stills now that Sony has pushed ahead with a 12 megapixel A7SIII.


well dont look at the foto comparisons of the two cameras, it will wreck your house of cards


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 28, 2020)

jedy said:


> And $3899 for a stills camera with some limited video capability is a good price? Your argument doesn’t add up. The R5 and A7SIII are very expensive and there are, cheaper alternatives with specs to match your actual requirements. You also sound a little rattled by the A7SIII release, trying to find fault like you’re convincing yourself it’s a bad camera.




I've never called this camera a bad camera at all. I've stated my ignorance of the subject from my very first post in this thread and asked people with more knowledge to explain why it is significant because I don't have that knowledge first hand.

WRT to the R5 at $3899 (I paid $3,700) it's a steal. Please direct me to the 'other' stills camera that carries the R5 specs. You could remove ALL the R5 video specs and it is still a remarkable stills camera and barely costs more than the 5D4 did six years ago - the net difference for me was less than $100. It's leaps and bounds ahead of the 5D4 stills-wise, AND is does exceptional video for people who don't expect a hand-held mirrorless consumer-grade camera to be able to film Terminator II in one take.


----------



## Max TT (Jul 28, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Yeah - I edited my post to reflect that as well - I guess that's a good thing if you're big into using a little camera like this for making movies/interviews/weddings or whatnot.
> 
> I'm sure there is something revolutionary here I'm just not smart enough to know what that is.
> 
> Good tip on the low light - I saw that and it sort of bounced off because it isn't something that comes into play for me.


You must be a Canon engineer lol


robotfist said:


> For video shooters, who this camera is targeted for, it can shoot continuous 4k, 10bit , 422, with a full pixel readout and no crop in all shooting modes including at 120 fps. It's got an ISO range from 80 - 409,600 so it will more than likely continue its status as the lowlight king. These are all very good specs.
> 
> And more importantly, it is designed not to overheat.
> 
> ...


For video, this has effectively killed the R5 before it has even shipped. The R5 is still a much better for stills though, but so are alot of other cameras. A7sIII sits at the top of its class unquestionably for video simply because it's engineers are not dumb.


----------



## Juangrande (Jul 28, 2020)

TomR said:


> Sony just shat directly down canons throat


Hardly. I mean that’s your opinion because your obviously lowlight video excited but I wouldn’t want that camera as It’s useless for me personally because I don’t shoot video ever and 12mp sucks for the portrait and print work that I do. I almost always light a scene even on locations with multiple lights so I don’t need super low light capabilities as I’m not a PJ or street photographer. So to me the new Sony is a paperweight at best. It all comes down to what type of photographer you are. (Or videographer). It truly does sounds like a great video camera for someone who wants a small low light video centric camera good for low light shooting who doesn’t need quality stills. Doesn’t tick any boxes for me though so I don’t see how it “shit down Canons throat” as the R5 is perfect for my needs and I’m blown away by the specs and Sony hasn’t made a camera I’m interested in. They have a poor lens mount system and horrid ergonomics/menu system and I don’t like the way the sensor renders default colors, especially skin tones, but some are willing to deal with/work around those faults because it delivers in areas that are important to their needs, which is totally valid. I tried my friends AR73 and I really disliked it. But for the niche it’s designed for I do think it’s an exciting low light video camera and I’m stoked for those people but I wouldn’t compare it to a completely differently spec’ed camera.


----------



## Th0msky (Jul 28, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Are they really? I'm not a hardcore video shooter so I'm dumber than the average bear when it comes to stuff like this but to me it seems like a lot of money for that camera.
> 
> I see it can shoot 4K60P for over an hour so that's a good thing if that's something you need. So kudos.
> 
> What is so appealing that makes it worth that kind of money - and I'm not being sarcastic - a compare and contrast in an 'explain it like I'm five' kind of way would be very helpful.


 it literally has features that very good cinema cameras like the canon C300 or C500 have, but for 5 times less the price.


----------



## Th0msky (Jul 28, 2020)

I just hope canon releases a dedicated video camera on the R series that would perform just as well or outperform this A7S III. 

as a videographer myself i'd rather preorder the a7s III for now because it just has everything you want as a filmmaker for a fairly good price.
until canon releases something that would compete with this i'd definitely buy that instead.


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 28, 2020)

Th0msky said:


> it literally has features that very good cinema cameras like the canon C300 or C500 have, but for 5 times less the price.




This I understand. I'm happy for the folks that were looking forward to something like this then. For me it doesn't resonate but I get what you're saying.

Nice summary. LOL..


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 28, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Actually, no and not even CLOSE.
> 
> I've never called this camera a bad camera at all. I've stated my ignorance of the subject from my very first post in this thread and asked people with more knowledge to explain why it is significant because I don't have that knowledge first hand.
> 
> WRT to the R5, Please direct me to the 'other' stills camera that carries the R5 specs. You could remove ALL the R5 video specs and it is still a remarkable stills camera and barely costs more than the 5D4 did six years ago. It's leaps and bounds ahead of the 5D4 stills-wise, AND is does exceptyional video for people who don't expect a hand-held mirrorless consumer-grade camera to be abloe to film Terminator II in one take.



The Z7 is 45 mp at $2700
The A7R4 is 61 mp is $3200
The GFX is medium format 50 mp at $3500

All have great image quality and pro-level performance. If you're comparing the unlimited video modes, the FF ones have full frame binned/skipped 4K that's soft, and crop modes that provide great quality. There are auto focus, battery, EVF, lens mount, card slot tradeoffs across the board.

So, what makes the R5 worth $1100 more than an Z7, or $500 more than the A7R if you're a stills shooter?


----------



## Juangrande (Jul 28, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> I film a lot of protest and political content, the ability to do foto and video is indespensible as a freelancer. I sell footage and go into places most don't so to have both is a must. Here in Minneapolis I was out shooting and my 16-35 and 1dc were hit by rubber bullets, amazing the lens was ok and so was the body. They were not point blank but there was a blunt object that hit them. There is no denying that there is a place and time for all sorts of cameras but the low light of this a7 camera will allow for cleaner and more usable content. While out filming protests I witnessed people tying to steal news crews big cameras and people tried taking mine aswell but a slr style body is something tou can actually hold and run with if you need to. Will a sony take a betting like a 1d? probably not but to have both is a great thing. on a side not all these great tools coming out we never could have dreamed of, there is often so much anger and shit talk from our tribalism that we dont actually look and the genius ehind the tech. if you shoot sony thats great, if you shoot canon, thats great too. we should stop always fighting and just start capturing and using and adapting the tools that best suit us. and here is a link of what i shoot.
> https://www.fox9.com/news/the-fall-of-the-third-precinct-a-timeline-of-events


They’re not protest they’re riots, call them what they are. #journalismnotpropaganda


----------



## Colorado (Jul 28, 2020)

TomR said:


> Obviously talking about the video side. I'm sure the stills are great on the r5, but that's all it is, once you start shooting stills you can't go to video cause the camera is overheated.
> 
> On the flip side 12 mpx is enough for me cause I only post photos to social. If you shoot prints the Sony is obviously not the camera for you


In two posts you just demonstrated the problem with internet forums. What you say here is basically that different use cases require different tools. Based on your use cases a video-focused camera with minor stills capabilities is what you are looking for. Other people want to maximize the skills capabilities and will rarely, if ever, use the video capabilities. Everything you said was very reasonable. (I think you are exaggerating the "shoot 5 stills and the camera is too hot for video" situation but we"ll see I guess.)

Your other post was, and I quote, "Sony just shat directly down canons throat" which is ridiculous. It is that Sony fanboy vs Canon fanboy taunting which i find tiresome.

I currently have a 1DX (no marks) and am close to ordering an R5. In all the time I have owned the 1DX there was one moment (I saw a herd of deer on a hike) that I thought a video would be interesting. I realized in the field that I had no idea how to switch the 1DX to video.  By the time I fumbled around with it the deer were gone. Clearly for my uses cases a camera that focuses on stills capabilities at the expense of video capabilities is the right camera for me. If I need to take a video my phone does a fine job as I'm only going to be texting it in most cases.


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 28, 2020)

Juangrande said:


> They’re not protest they’re riots, call them what they are. #journalismnotpropaganda



This is going to devolve very quickly. I'd suggest editing your comment as it doesn't add anything to the discussion in terms of evaluating these cameras.


----------



## Mark3794 (Jul 28, 2020)

Well it looks like it won't ship before late september. Who knows if canon has another RF camera hidden under the pillow or a big firmware update for the R5/R6


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 28, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> Well it looks like it won't ship before late september. Who knows if canon has another RF camera hidden under the pillow or a big firmware update for the R5/R6



Give that my preorder is 4% of the way to being fulfilled based on my last update, I could likely get an A7SIII in my hands before an R5. Gives me plenty of time too read reviews and get re-aquainted with my 60D.


----------



## Max TT (Jul 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> The Z7 is 45 mp at $2700
> The A7R4 is 61 mp is $3200
> The GFX is medium format 50 mp at $3500
> 
> ...


Exacteffingly!!!

Not to mention the $1100 saved on a Z7 vs R5 could get you an Atomos. 

That means shit loads of storage on an SSD with Pro-effing-Res Raw out to HDMI, no recording limit. And other functionality.


----------



## LDS (Jul 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> So, what makes the R5 worth $1100 more than an Z7, or $500 more than the A7R if you're a stills shooter?



The RF lenses?


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 28, 2020)

jedy said:


> You seem very eager to find fault with the A7SIII yet defend the R5 which we now know isn’t the hybrid camera Canon initially made it out to be (and why I think $3899 in light of the overheating issues isn’t good value) If you really don’t care about video, why has the A7SIII got you so rattled?



Show me where it has me "rattled...."

Asking questions about something you don't understand used to be a good thing. In this day and age you can't ask anything without getting your head taken off.

I never said "i know what this camera can do and it isn't worth it" - I said "I don't know what this camera does so please help me understand it..."

Th0msky put it in perspective for me in words I can understand: It literally has features that very good cinema cameras like the canon C300 or C500 have, but for 5 times less the price.

I never looked at the R5 as a video camera so it's shortcomings (which aren't shortcomings at all to me because of the way I'll use the camera) are of no consequence.

The 5D4 came in at $3500 plus tax when it hit. The R5 is $3899 plus tax. Inflation-wise, it's a wash. I bought the R5 as a stills camera so the value is there regardless of any video it can shoot - it already outperforms the 5D4 on every front without even looking at video.

And I notice you didn't list all the stills cameras that can do what the R5 can do at its price point so we'll call that moot.

You also didn't try to answer my initial question which was 'what does this camera do that's so special?' Your choice was to give me shit for asking a simple question in the first place. Good job.


----------



## navastronia (Jul 28, 2020)

robotfist said:


> For video shooters, who this camera is targeted for, it can shoot continuous 4k, 10bit , 422, with a full pixel readout and no crop in all shooting modes including at 120 fps. It's got an ISO range from 80 - 409,600 so it will more than likely continue its status as the lowlight king. These are all very good specs.
> 
> And more importantly, it is designed not to overheat.
> 
> ...



It really does. Lovely video camera, though it will handle much better in a cage and with a monitor, driving the _real_ cost of the camera up from $3.5K to closer to $6K. "Ah," the amateur director says, "but with its high-ISO capability, I'd never have to light a scene ever again!"

No, but seriously, I could see myself shooting a low budget feature with 2 or 3 of these in the next few years. Here's hoping.


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 28, 2020)

LDS said:


> The RF lenses?



and the EF lenses.
and the EF-S lenses
and a better EVF
and more FPS
and two memory card slots
and limited 8K
and tilty flippy versus tilty
and eight stops versus 5 stops IBIS combined

little things.


----------



## navastronia (Jul 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Higher quality video. With the lower res sensor, it's really focused on great 4K. The oversampled 4k on the R5 will be better but comes with a ton of asterisks around heat, rolling shutter, etc. Sony's promising those big pixels mean low rolling shutter, great video dynamic range, longer shooting times before hitting thermal limits. This is exactly the camera that video shooters seem to want canon to build. (And, honestly, the R6 should have been a lot closer to this)



Preach.


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jul 28, 2020)

Sony did good with this camera. It's target is videographer's and they almost nailed it. If not for the still crappy IBIS, it's near perfect for video.

I'm a 60:40 video : photo shooter so will stick with the R5. The R5 appears near flawless as a stills camera and has all video specs available with a time limit on it. My shooting style can work with that thankfully. It'd be nice not to have to worry about it, but it is likely a non-issue for me. I'm also in love with RF glass which Sony can't use. Also as a gimbal user, I can't wait to use Canon's IBIS, which looks best in class for a full frame camera.

The competition is great. I hope this will make Canon make a videography camera. They certainly have the tech for it, and its a matter of design decisions. Ditch the weather sealing, add passive/active cooling, remove the recording limit and it already has a winner. Then they can add video oriented features like more AutoFocus controls, a mini xlr module, and tune the processor/sensor performance for video first/stills second and that'd be a wrap.

Don't know why people need to feel threatened by Camera Brands. We are getting some amazing technology all across the board. I'm excited more about all the creators who now have these amazing tools to work with.


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 28, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> and the EF lenses.
> and the EF-S lenses
> and a better EVF
> and more FPS
> ...



There are lots of reasons why the R5 is better than those other cameras. I'd hope so, as it's more expensive. Canon did not aggressively price this one vs its stills competition, though. It seems to be priced as a "one body to do it all" type camera.


----------



## mhbstudio (Jul 28, 2020)

Time to unload my A7III on Gear Focus.


----------



## marioslrzn (Jul 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Higher quality video. With the lower res sensor, it's really focused on great 4K. The oversampled 4k on the R5 will be better but comes with a ton of asterisks around heat, rolling shutter, etc. Sony's promising those big pixels mean low rolling shutter, great video dynamic range, longer shooting times before hitting thermal limits. This is exactly the camera that video shooters seem to want canon to build. (And, honestly, the R6 should have been a lot closer to this)


The r5 and r6 have better rolling shutter performance , Dan Watson put side by side comparison and he was surprised that the 45mp had better performance and we know the r6 has better performance rolling shutter


----------



## marioslrzn (Jul 28, 2020)

TomR said:


> Sony just shat directly down canons throat


How is that when the r6 and r5 have better 4k quality, am i missing something?


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jul 28, 2020)

marioslrzn said:


> The r5 and r6 have better rolling shutter performance , Dan Watson put side by side comparison and he was surprised that the 45mp had better performance and we know the r6 has better performance rolling shutter


Yeah it's weird. I didn't see Dan's video, but on other video side by side comparisons, they were saying Sony's was better as expected. They showed freeze frame side by side, and the angle certainly favored the Sony. But in real time the Canon just looked better.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Jul 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> The Z7 is 45 mp at $2700
> The A7R4 is 61 mp is $3200
> The GFX is medium format 50 mp at $3500
> 
> ...


Canon just stringing us along because of our investments.


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> There are lots of reasons why the R5 is better than those other cameras. I'd hope so, as it's more expensive. Canon did not aggressively price this one vs its stills competition, though. It seems to be priced as a "one body to do it all" type camera.



I think they priced it as their 5D4 replacement and hit the nail on the head. Show me another camera with this much progress over the camera it replaces, video features aside, that is _*virtually price unchanged for six years*_.

Given all the lenses the R5 can use - at all price points from beginner to professional - and all it's stills features, who do you see as the competition, and which of those would be revolutionary enough to make someone with a large inventory of L glass switch?

I see very few.

I do, however, see the attraction to beginning with Canon and having this as an upgrade option down the road knowing all your stuff is going to carry forward.


----------



## caffetin (Jul 28, 2020)

i dont know.but one think i dont like on sony is that thay pushing very fast tempo.like healing some complex and want to say we are the best.canon when something make is maked for long time.


----------



## marioslrzn (Jul 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> The Z7 is 45 mp at $2700
> The A7R4 is 61 mp is $3200
> The GFX is medium format 50 mp at $3500
> 
> ...


Let’s get one thing straight, non of them have 20fps, 8 stop ibis, higher iso performance, 180 raw buffer, better autofocus, native f1.2 lens with 8stops of ibis, LCD screen, 5ghz WiFi .even my iPhone can shoot photos but lets put it in perspective the r5 as a package blows away it’s competitors. Yes the a7siii does 4k but it’s not the best 4k, only thing it has no time limit and 4k60fps 1 hour instead of 35 min. So the minute you slap on a ninja v on a r6 and you’ll be cheaper and have better 4k quality with unlimited recording. Canon just needs update their firmware with lower bit rates and codecs and that would help a lot with the heating


----------



## marioslrzn (Jul 28, 2020)

Max C said:


> Exacteffingly!!!
> 
> Not to mention the $1100 saved on a Z7 vs R5 could get you an Atomos.
> 
> That means shit loads of storage on an SSD with Pro-effing-Res Raw out to HDMI, no recording limit. And other functionality.


Can you shoot wildlife and birding with a z7, does it have the 8 stop of ibis, does the focusing comes even close, 20fps...you can put 3 atomos and that still won’t make it better.....you remind me of someone buying wheels for there car and when they try to sell it there’s no value added from the wheels . And z7 doesn’t do 4k120fps or oversampled 4k30fps, let’s not even talk about the 8k, which i don’t care about but it’s there


----------



## cornieleous (Jul 28, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Yeah - I edited my post to reflect that as well - I guess that's a good thing if you're big into using a little camera like this for making movies/interviews/weddings or whatnot.
> 
> I'm sure there is something revolutionary here I'm just not smart enough to know what that is.
> 
> Good tip on the low light - I saw that and it sort of bounced off because it isn't something that comes into play for me.



Not really revolutionary at all but evolutionary it seems. I am sure it will be a fine, purpose built camera with excellent quality. It seems to improve in several areas but is not the desired hybrid camera people seem to want to do every job for a cheap price in a tiny body. I feel the R6 and R5 are more revolutionary although they seem to not handle long filming at high bitrate. The SH1 also looks revolutionary with a mid MP sensor and actually useful enough stills capability (although not weather sealed, it is a dedicated video cam that happens to make the grade for stills).


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 28, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> I think they priced it as their 5D4 replacement and hit the nail on the head. Show me another camera with this much progress over the camera it replaces, video features aside, that is _*virtually price unchanged for six years*_.
> 
> Given all the lenses the R5 can use - at all price points from beginner to professional - and all it's stills features, who do you see as the competition, and which of those would be revolutionary enough to make someone with a large inventory of L glass switch?
> 
> ...



I have a pre-order, so I agree overall. If you're looking in a vacuum, or if you're heavily invested in L glass, you're likely to make the same call.

But I read the original point as "there's nothing that compares at this price for stills", and I disagree with that assessment. If you're looking at this on a stills-by-stills basis, it is more expensive (20-40% so) than it's peers. If that premium is worth it (Better speed, EVF, autofocus, ergonomics, being three key things) is the consumer's decision. But lets not pretend like the A7R4 isn't a phenomenal device that's hampered by some weird quirks. And it certainly seems like Sony has *finally* decided to address the quirks.

I mean, that was always the question, right? Will Sony figure out colors/ergo and get a lens catalog before Canon figures out speed. Turns out they both figured 'em out at the same time, oh, and Canon started from "scratch" with RF. 

I am off topic now, but the A7R5 will be Sony's answer to the R5 and it will rock. What's Canon's answer for the A7SIII? Because "buy a C300" is not going to cut it anymore. "Use your EF glass on a Sony" is not going to cut it once we're all on RF glass. Sony chose to lead with video, and promote it as such. Canon chose to lead with stills and got skewered by a bunch of video people because apparently us stills shooters hang out on forums instead of making content thirst traps on YouTube


----------



## koenkooi (Jul 28, 2020)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> [..]
> 
> I'm also surprised nobody is talking about the oversampled 4k crop mode on the R5 (which has no overheating issues). For best quality video (and constant reliability) I foresee myself using this mode almost exclusively. Super35 fov, with DPAF, oversampled 5.1k into 4k, 10 bit 4::2:2 C-log..... [..]


I’m very excited about that crop mode, it should work wonders for my attempts at shooting macro videos.


----------



## Deleted member 384473 (Jul 28, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Are they really? I'm not a hardcore video shooter so I'm dumber than the average bear when it comes to stuff like this but to me it seems like a lot of money for that camera.
> 
> I see it can shoot 4K60P for over an hour so that's a good thing if that's something you need. So kudos.
> 
> What is so appealing that makes it worth that kind of money - and I'm not being sarcastic - a compare and contrast in an 'explain it like I'm five' kind of way would be very helpful.


Well one thing is that its usable and reliable for video shooters LOL. No record limit. No Overheating. No line skipping on 4k unlike Canon's LQ 4K. Canon's 4KHQ & 8K Raw are much more detailed, although less dynamic range, but it doesn't matter. It is not reliable and could ruin a day of shooting. Could be a great crash cam though, especially at 8K res. R5 is an amazing stills camera and I wanted it to be my hybrid work horse to compliment my cine cam but... I need a reliable tool for content. A7S3 is an amazing video camera from what I've seen.


----------



## cornieleous (Jul 28, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> and the EF lenses.
> and the EF-S lenses
> and a better EVF
> and more FPS
> ...



Exactly, the list is long. Add better autofocus, better video, lower light focusing. Also some prefer the ergonomics of Canon. Also the Z7 has been out a while and launched at $3,400. The Canon is at release price. 

Also Canon has an arguably more stable future and better all around system of complimentary lenses and cameras. All camera companies are struggling, but Canon at least makes their own sensors, while most others buy from Sony. This allows Canon to innovate directly and come up with stuff like DPAF. So a camera system and it's future are important to consider. To those over simplifiying: stop comparing spec sheets and start _thinking_! Take these cameras out for a rental and turn off youtube loud mouths make up your own minds. 

Hopefully soon we can stop with the unrealistic comparisons. The R5 is the MILC 5D4 successor and is a stills camera with amazing video as a bonus. It is priced appropriately if the comparisons are made fairly. If you are a video blogger, wedding or event shooter, corporate or whatever VIDEO shooter who needs to shoot continuously at ridiculous bitrates, stop comparing the R5 and R6 and go buy a dedicated video camera.

Or if you really think you can have it all in one (amazing stills and leading video) you are in for a wakeup. All of these companies are putting out great _purpose built_ cameras. There isn't a camera truly great for stills and cinema like video yet, but the R5 is darn close.


----------



## Besisika (Jul 28, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> I’m very excited about that crop mode, it should work wonders for my attempts at shooting macro videos.


Because if your camera is the king of low light, you simply add an extender whenever you need the extra reach. 12MP should give them something good in the low light realm. It is the actual advantage of this camera. If you don't shoot low light, then you spend $3500 only to get 4K120 and a menu. This is why I am surprised with Youtuber's hapiness with this camera. They use lighting in their studio, then why is this a great camera? $3500 for a 4K120?
But, I agree. The 1.6 crop on the R5 is something extra that you don't have to pay or carry in your bag additionally.


----------



## usern4cr (Jul 28, 2020)

As an almost 100% stills shooter, I'm glad I don't have to worry about whether the A7s3 or the R5 is the best video camera, as it looks like if you're only into 4K video and don't care about build quality of bodies & lenses or high quality stills or in-hand ergonomics then the A7s3 might win after all - time will tell.

I do commend Sony for *finally* having a fully articulating screen on their high-end body. That's 1 thing that by itself kept me away from Sony before. That might mean that their future A7r5 will have one as well, which will be great if it happens. Sony did have the same high speed card slots which is good, although I hear they are of a lesser value format. I wonder if Sony had a big improvement in their menu system, as it really needs it. I'm glad Sony has a much higher res EVF, as it will pressure Canon to up their game there yet again in the future.

I'm still going to get the R5 and some of their great RF lenses, and look forward to better ergonomics and high quality stills images and better build quality in their bodies and lenses. I assume Canon will come out with a new 85?MP body within about a year and I hope that gives them enough time to see what they need to learn from Sony so that it can be better than the R5 in the other areas of importance, and I plan on getting one when it comes out so I'll have 2 bodies (which is all I will want).


----------



## twoheadedboy (Jul 28, 2020)

JIM JIM said:


> Well one thing is that its usable and reliable for video shooters LOL. No record limit. No Overheating. No line skipping on 4k unlike Canon's LQ 4K. Canon's 4KHQ & 8K Raw are much more detailed, although less dynamic range, but it doesn't matter. It is not reliable and could ruin a day of shooting. Could be a great crash cam though, especially at 8K res. R5 is an amazing stills camera and I wanted it to be my hybrid work horse to compliment my cine cam but... I need a reliable tool for content. A7S3 is an amazing video camera from what I've seen.



Is line skipping 4k on an 8k 45 MP sensor really going to be lower quality than non-line skipping 4k on a 12 MP sensor?


----------



## SteveC (Jul 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> This is going to devolve very quickly. I'd suggest editing your comment as it doesn't add anything to the discussion in terms of evaluating these cameras.



Or alternatively the original poster could edit THEIR comment.


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 28, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> Is line skipping 4k on an 8k 45 MP sensor really going to be lower quality than non-line skipping 4k on a 12 MP sensor?



You can see a clear difference between the modes on the R5. In 4K-HQ the Canon is gonna be about the sharpest 4K you'll ever see. The standard quality is very middle of the pack.


----------



## The3o5FlyGuy (Jul 28, 2020)

I still feel like *OVERALL* the R5 is a better camera. Yeah the 4K at 160fps on the Sony or at 60fps doesn’t overheat, but if I’m not mistake, neither does the canon when you don’t shoot in High Quality and over sample. Plus the R5 is a far better stills camera. Yeah the Sony is a low light beast, but the R5 is much better at stills. I’d even go as far to say that the R6 has better quality 4K at 60fps. they both have their advantages but i feel like the Sony would leave you wanting a lot more


----------



## Tremotino (Jul 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> An R5 shooter doesn't have that option right now. In the past, you could do lean on Canon stills and Sony video, all using EF. But as EF shooters move to RF, that flexibility is gone. You start to look a lot more locked in to your system, and the Sony system is finally looking attractive.



LOL!
The best part of the R5, R6, R,.... is that you can use EF lenses and they work even better than on the EF bodies. 

You are simply talking bs


----------



## Deleted member 384473 (Jul 28, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> Is line skipping 4k on an 8k 45 MP sensor really going to be lower quality than non-line skipping 4k on a 12 MP sensor?


Yes. Look at a comparison and you will see the LQ4K from the 8K 45MP is lower quality. I've seen three separate comparisons confirm this.


----------



## Deleted member 384473 (Jul 28, 2020)

Tremotino said:


> LOL!
> The best part of the R5, R6, R,.... is that you can use EF lenses and they work even better than on the EF bodies.
> 
> You are simply talking bs


Believe they are referring to a new EOS R system user with only RF glass. Does suck to be invested in only RF glass if you are primarily a video shooter. Hopefully whatever video camera is around the corner will alleviate that burden.


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 28, 2020)

Tremotino said:


> LOL!
> The best part of the R5, R6, R,.... is that you can use EF lenses and they work even better than on the EF bodies.
> 
> You are simply talking bs



I said "as EF shooters move to RF" you lose the flexibility to shoot your glass on both Sony and Canon bodies. It's not BS, it's planning a multi-year purchase. Didn't say anything about EF lenses not working well.

Apologies if that was unclear.


----------



## Go Wild (Jul 28, 2020)

And the battle begins!!   

First thing let me say the most important! I hope a lot of guys cancel the preorder ate least in my country so I can get an R5 faster!!   

- Sony A7S3 is out and of course, being a video-centric camera overall is a better camera than the EOS R5 for video. But....Is it really? Let´s resume this thing...Or like some youtubers: "Let´s get into it!"  (thumbs up ordinary filmmaker!)

Canon EOS R5 is a BETTER camera! Period. If you combine all the things Canon has the advantage!

Yes, Sony [email protected] looks a bit better (but let´s get real you will not notice on a video)!
Yes, Sony has some advantage in "regular 4k" but again i don´t see many difference (despite the mushy muddy, wooshy or whatever Northrup uses to describe! )
Yes, Sony has some videocentric characteristics like relay recording
Yes Sony is much better than the EOS R5 in low light. A dealbreaker? NO, not to me! And specially no if you also get the EOS R6.
Yes Sony has 4k120fps RAW over HDMI. And this is for me the only thing I wish in EOS R5 (and less overheating of course)

But....and here comes the BIG BUT! (Not the big butt...don´t get crazy! 

Canon 4k HQ is better than Sony
Canon 8k is better than Sony
Canon 4k120 is not so good but almost the same
Canon AF is way better
Canon Stills are way better
Canon IBIS is Way better
Canon bitrate is way better
Canon weather sealing is way better
Canon external recording allows you to record up to over 3 hours of 4k60 without overheating!!

So....the only thing canon needs to do is to find some way of extending record time without overheating and Canon beats Sony in almost everything. Not to mention the beautiful Canon color!!

And this is it! Please Canon find some way to reduce the overheating and I will have THE PERFECT CAMERA!!! 

OHHHH EDIT! : And it looks like video in R6 is similar to the Sony A7s3 even in 25,600 ISO!  Only difference? Overheating! So that´s the difference between the A7S3 and the Canon ones!


----------



## ericjon23 (Jul 28, 2020)

wow! this is way better than the a7sii.


----------



## TomR (Jul 28, 2020)

marioslrzn said:


> How is that when the r6 and r5 have better 4k quality, am i missing something?



They don't have better anything, if they actually work when you need them. The sony's dynamic range at 102,000 is better than the canon at iso 100.

The Sony also destroys the canon in 120fps at 4k and offers 240fps in 1080. What does the canon do again? 60fps.


----------



## TomR (Jul 28, 2020)

Colorado said:


> In two posts you just demonstrated the problem with internet forums. What you say here is basically that different use cases require different tools. Based on your use cases a video-focused camera with minor stills capabilities is what you are looking for. Other people want to maximize the skills capabilities and will rarely, if ever, use the video capabilities. Everything you said was very reasonable. (I think you are exaggerating the "shoot 5 stills and the camera is too hot for video" situation but we"ll see I guess.)
> 
> Your other post was, and I quote, "Sony just shat directly down canons throat" which is ridiculous. It is that Sony fanboy vs Canon fanboy taunting which i find tiresome.
> 
> I currently have a 1DX (no marks) and am close to ordering an R5. In all the time I have owned the 1DX there was one moment (I saw a herd of deer on a hike) that I thought a video would be interesting. I realized in the field that I had no idea how to switch the 1DX to video.  By the time I fumbled around with it the deer were gone. Clearly for my uses cases a camera that focuses on stills capabilities at the expense of video capabilities is the right camera for me. If I need to take a video my phone does a fine job as I'm only going to be texting it in most cases.



I'll take your points but let me ask you this, wouldn't you be frustrated at paying a premium for a 8k camera when you don't intend to use that feature at all?

Overheating aside I think this is where the r6 misses the mark, it should have had all the high end video features (to compete with the a7s) and left the r5 for stills guys like yourself which would compete with the a74


----------



## Besisika (Jul 29, 2020)

TomR said:


> They don't have better anything, if they actually work when you need them. The sony's dynamic range at 102,000 is better than the canon at iso 100.
> 
> The Sony also destroys the canon in 120fps at 4k and offers 240fps in 1080. What does the canon do again? 60fps.


I watched a film once and the guy said: "that is the face of an angry man". 
I am certain when I say: "that is is the text of an angry user". What did Canon do or didn't do that you hate them so much? It looks like you can't see anything good that Canon does and can do.
It looks like you wake up in the morning and say to yourself "it is a good day to blast at canon".

What I am asking is just a little respect to us readers, if you are capable. 
Please!


----------



## SteveC (Jul 29, 2020)

Besisika said:


> I watched a film once and the guy said: "that is the face of an angry man".
> I am certain when I say: "that is is the text of an angry user". What did Canon do or didn't do that you hate them so much? It looks like you can't see anything good that Canon does and can do.
> It looks like you wake up in the morning and say to yourself "it is a good day to blast at canon".
> 
> ...



Don't feed the troll.


----------



## reef58 (Jul 29, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> I can honestly say I am going to buy this camera, Canon has officially shit the bed with a hybrid camera. If the 1DX didn’t have a record limit And 4k120 I would be purchasing that for a all around camera. This thing honestly looks Pretty amazing, I have been saying for a while along with many other people I don’t care about insanely higher resolutions just give us a really good 4K and I think Sony has delivered that, I will still keep my 1DC’s and a lot of my other stuff but this thing is going to be an awesome tool to have. It’s weird seeing canon push the envelope and have reliability issues and now we are seeing Sony becoming the reliable workhorse.



I can attest the 4k from the 1dx is pretty sweet. I am not a video guy, but starting to dabble. I don't know if I can post a YouTube video I shot, so I won't, but know processing and cut up with I-movie and I think it looks pretty sweet.


----------



## Colorado (Jul 29, 2020)

TomR said:


> I'll take your points but let me ask you this, wouldn't you be frustrated at paying a premium for a 8k camera when you don't intend to use that feature at all?
> 
> Overheating aside I think this is where the r6 misses the mark, it should have had all the high end video features (to compete with the a7s) and left the r5 for stills guys like yourself which would compete with the a74


Do I wish (some) cameras were more stills focused? Sure. But check these and other forums. Any suggestion of a stills-only or a 90% stills camera is met with "it literally costs nothing to include video! stop being selfish" and "why do you care if your stills camera can also capture video!?" There are always compromises when making a hybrid camera. A stills only camera wouldn't need an external mic jack, or an hdmi port. It wouldn't have to worry about heating issues at all (thankfully the R5 went weather sealing over vents). I am no expert but it seems the dream requirements for tech like IBIS and EVFs are slightly different for stills vs video. I'm sure a number of tradeoffs were made by Canon engineers when designing the R5.

But the truth is that the contracting ILC market can't support dozens of different models. Everything has to be hybrid to some degree. Canon's strategy seems to be to do kitchen sink hybrid cameras (R, RP, R5, R6) and dedicated video cameras (RF mount versions coming no doubt). Sony seems to have stills-focused hybrids and video-focused hybrids (forgive me, I don't know the model numbers...a lot of A's and 7's and R's and roman numerals). The only true stills only cameras out there are super high end and/or medium format territory things.

The Canon R5, while pricey, is not really out of line. As many have noted, the inflation adjusted numbers put the R5 and the 5D launch prices almost exactly equal. Personally for me (upgrading from a 1DX) the R5 gives insanely better AF, more than 2x the resolution, IBIS, and the temptation of swapping out shiny EF glass for even more shiny RF glass. I only hope I can swap slowly as this is just a hobby for me and I don't need to upgrade to anything.


----------



## TomR (Jul 29, 2020)

Besisika said:


> I watched a film once and the guy said: "that is the face of an angry man".
> I am certain when I say: "that is is the text of an angry user". What did Canon do or didn't do that you hate them so much? It looks like you can't see anything good that Canon does and can do.
> It looks like you wake up in the morning and say to yourself "it is a good day to blast at canon".
> 
> ...



i dont hate canon, i have been shooting canon since 2003, and i still have a 5d3. That said i am not loyal to any brand, i shoot sony, nikon and black magic as well. Canon dropped the ball here, if you cant see that youre just a fan boy.


----------



## TomR (Jul 29, 2020)

Colorado said:


> Do I wish (some) cameras were more stills focused? Sure. But check these and other forums. Any suggestion of a stills-only or a 90% stills camera is met with "it literally costs nothing to include video! stop being selfish" and "why do you care if your stills camera can also capture video!?" There are always compromises when making a hybrid camera. A stills only camera wouldn't need an external mic jack, or an hdmi port. It wouldn't have to worry about heating issues at all (thankfully the R5 went weather sealing over vents). I am no expert but it seems the dream requirements for tech like IBIS and EVFs are slightly different for stills vs video. I'm sure a number of tradeoffs were made by Canon engineers when designing the R5.
> 
> But the truth is that the contracting ILC market can't support dozens of different models. Everything has to be hybrid to some degree. Canon's strategy seems to be to do kitchen sink hybrid cameras (R, RP, R5, R6) and dedicated video cameras (RF mount versions coming no doubt). Sony seems to have stills-focused hybrids and video-focused hybrids (forgive me, I don't know the model numbers...a lot of A's and 7's and R's and roman numerals). The only true stills only cameras out there are super high end and/or medium format territory things.
> 
> The Canon R5, while pricey, is not really out of line. As many have noted, the inflation adjusted numbers put the R5 and the 5D launch prices almost exactly equal. Personally for me (upgrading from a 1DX) the R5 gives insanely better AF, more than 2x the resolution, IBIS, and the temptation of swapping out shiny EF glass for even more shiny RF glass. I only hope I can swap slowly as this is just a hobby for me and I don't need to upgrade to anything.



fair enough, I think you have some good points there., this camera seems like it might be the right choice for you. I wanted to love this camera, i really did, but all the rumored specs (for video) have turned into disapointment, and thus i now must wait for a r5 II or something else for me to come back home to canon.


----------



## dba101 (Jul 29, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Sony definitely seems like a better deal on the video part!
> Much more reliable and of course "usable".
> It's a shame. Was really hoping Canon would finally create a camera that added IBIS and no crop 4K. And they did, but then went backwards with the unpredictable over heating. Sucks.


Change the record!


----------



## dba101 (Jul 29, 2020)

TomR said:


> Sony just shat directly down canons throat


Probably the dumbest comment in the history of Canon Rumours. Well done. You achieved something.


----------



## Colorado (Jul 29, 2020)

TomR said:


> fair enough, I think you have some good points there., this camera seems like it might be the right choice for you. I wanted to love this camera, i really did, but all the rumored specs (for video) have turned into disapointment, and thus i now must wait for a r5 II or something else for me to come back home to canon.


Well I hope Canon one day makes the camera that meets your needs. Honestly it doesn't matter though. If you are happy shooting Sony then go out there and have fun with it. (Or make money with it if this is more than a hobby to you.) We should all be happy there is still competition between Canon, Nikon, and Sony.


----------



## Besisika (Jul 29, 2020)

TomR said:


> i dont hate canon, i have been shooting canon since 2003, and i still have a 5d3. That said i am not loyal to any brand, i shoot sony, nikon and black magic as well. Canon dropped the ball here, if you cant see that youre just a fan boy.


That's nice!
But you are right, I am a Canon fan boy. That's why I was offended. It looks like I am at fault.
Good luck with your Sony. You now have a better camera. Go shoot and show us the result. I have always enjoyed good work of great artists.


----------



## David - Sydney (Jul 29, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Or alternatively the original poster could edit THEIR comment.


Wouldn't the person on the ground recording the live footage be the best judge of what is happening?


----------



## David - Sydney (Jul 29, 2020)

Having been a long time stills shooter and somewhat video newbie, can someone help me out understanding the SD card specs needed for video on the R5?
Page 904 of the R5 manual shows the different video recording modes and the associated SD card specs needed ie U3, V30, V60, V90. 
https://havecamerawilltravel.com/photographer/fastest-sd-cards/
shows the actual sustained write and read speeds for SD cards and they don't appear to correlate with the marking eg Sandisk extreme Pro U3 is 4th fastest ie faster than some V90 cards. Does the SD card talk to the camera in HW about what rating is applicable or does it either work or not work?


----------



## SteveC (Jul 29, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> Wouldn't the person on the ground recording the live footage be the best judge of what is happening?



They would be...if they were impartial. If, hypothetically speaking, they were sympathetic to the cause of rioters, they would not call them rioters. If they were unsympathetic to actual non-violent/non-destructive protesters, they might want to call them rioters.

In this particular case the actual truth of the matter is disputed by the two "sides" of the political spectrum (I know of eyewitnesses who have claimed "rioters" and others who have claimed "peaceful protesters"), and it would be wrong to allow one side to try to set the perception by posting first, but then complain when someone on the other side tries to push back on it. It basically would mean that one isn't allowed to _retaliate_ to a political comment. Neither side should be allowed to post their opinion on the topic if this site is to remain apolitical.


----------



## NorskHest (Jul 29, 2020)

Colorado said:


> Do I wish (some) cameras were more stills focused? Sure. But check these and other forums. Any suggestion of a stills-only or a 90% stills camera is met with "it literally costs nothing to include video! stop being selfish" and "why do you care if your stills camera can also capture video!?" There are always compromises when making a hybrid camera. A stills only camera wouldn't need an external mic jack, or an hdmi port. It wouldn't have to worry about heating issues at all (thankfully the R5 went weather sealing over vents). I am no expert but it seems the dream requirements for tech like IBIS and EVFs are slightly different for stills vs video. I'm sure a number of tradeoffs were made by Canon engineers when designing the R5.
> 
> But the truth is that the contracting ILC market can't support dozens of different models. Everything has to be hybrid to some degree. Canon's strategy seems to be to do kitchen sink hybrid cameras (R, RP, R5, R6) and dedicated video cameras (RF mount versions coming no doubt). Sony seems to have stills-focused hybrids and video-focused hybrids (forgive me, I don't know the model numbers...a lot of A's and 7's and R's and roman numerals). The only true stills only cameras out there are super high end and/or medium format territory things.
> 
> The Canon R5, while pricey, is not really out of line. As many have noted, the inflation adjusted numbers put the R5 and the 5D launch prices almost exactly equal. Personally for me (upgrading from a 1DX) the R5 gives insanely better AF, more than 2x the resolution, IBIS, and the temptation of swapping out shiny EF glass for even more shiny RF glass. I only hope I can swap slowly as this is just a hobby for me and I don't need to upgrade to anything.


I actually wish the R5 was only a stills camera like the 5DSR and that the R6 would’ve been the video camera that would’ve made a lot of sense. They could’ve put like a pixel bend 4K with the R5 and called it a day and everyone would’ve been happy, they should’ve taken the 1DX and given that unlimited record time like the 1DC, and then the R6 should’ve been the holy grail for hybrid shooting


----------



## David - Sydney (Jul 29, 2020)

SteveC said:


> They would be...if they were impartial. If, hypothetically speaking, they were sympathetic to the cause of rioters, they would not call them rioters. If they were unsympathetic to actual non-violent/non-destructive protesters, they might want to call them rioters.
> 
> In this particular case the actual truth of the matter is disputed by the two "sides" of the political spectrum (I know of eyewitnesses who have claimed "rioters" and others who have claimed "peaceful protesters"), and it would be wrong to allow one side to try to set the perception by posting first, but then complain when someone on the other side tries to push back on it. It basically would mean that one isn't allowed to _retaliate_ to a political comment. Neither side should be allowed to post their opinion on the topic if this site is to remain apolitical.


As someone who is not from America and has no vested interest in politics or US issues, it would seem to be a strong, emotional response to one word in a camera forum post.
Let's get back to the more important Sony vs Canon issues!!


----------



## StevenA (Jul 29, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> I can honestly say I am going to buy this camera, Canon has officially shit the bed with a hybrid camera. If the 1DX didn’t have a record limit And 4k120 I would be purchasing that for a all around camera. This thing honestly looks Pretty amazing, I have been saying for a while along with many other people I don’t care about insanely higher resolutions just give us a really good 4K and I think Sony has delivered that, I will still keep my 1DC’s and a lot of my other stuff but this thing is going to be an awesome tool to have. It’s weird seeing canon push the envelope and have reliability issues and now we are seeing Sony becoming the reliable workhorse.



Respectfully, your view seems very myopic - video myopic. Firstly, I think the R5 and the a7siii are focused on two entirely different breed of people. Me, for instance, love the idea of having 45mpx for landscape and wildlife photography WITH amazing IBIS that works with in conjunction with the RF lense IS to provide incredible handholding abilities. And I still have incredible 4k video abilities and, should the mood strike, 8k video from which I can grab a 35mpx still image which is AMAZING for those wildlife moments where you might find yourself doubting your skills to get just the 'right moment' shooting at 20fps - god forbid. All of that and more for $3900.

The Sony EXCELS at 4k video but I watched Gordon's vid on this camera and the video stabilizer doesn't look any better than the R5. Obviously its low light abilities with a 12mpx sensor are a foregone conclusion compared to the R5/R6. But, no animal eye focus, just 10fps, no 8k. Can I even grab a 35mpx still from 4k? Nope, maybe I can get one at 12mpx and hope I don't need to crop in too much? $3500. 

I dunno, just me I guess but I'm willing to pay the extra $400 to have a hybrid that does one thing REALLY well (stills) and another thing very competently (video) than save the $400 and get a video camera that is far from ideal for stills. 

I guess it just boils down to what you really want but saying Canon shit the bed with the R5 and R6? I don't think so.


----------



## schiueva (Jul 29, 2020)

robotfist said:


> For video shooters, who this camera is targeted for, it can shoot continuous 4k, 10bit , 422, with a full pixel readout and no crop in all shooting modes including at 120 fps. It's got an ISO range from 80 - 409,600 so it will more than likely continue its status as the lowlight king. These are all very good specs.
> 
> And more importantly, it is designed not to overheat.
> 
> ...


I was Canon guy before, still have a brunch of canon gears. Got the A9ii and love it, waiting for the R5 and hopefully it will surpass my A9ii and going back to Canon. 
well it end up R5 is a hybrid camera and the A9 is still better for stills, I am a little disappointed


----------



## StevenA (Jul 29, 2020)

Besisika said:


> That's nice!
> But you are right, I am a Canon fan boy. That's why I was offended. It looks like I am at fault.
> Good luck with your Sony. You now have a better camera. Go shoot and show us the result. I have always enjoyed good work of great artists.



"You now have a better *VIDEO* camera"

Fixed it for ya.


----------



## StevenA (Jul 29, 2020)

schiueva said:


> I was Canon guy before, still have a brunch of canon gears. Got the A9ii and love it, waiting for the R5 and hopefully it will surpass my A9ii and going back to Canon.
> well it end up R5 is a hybrid camera and the A9 is still better for stills, I am a little disappointed




The A9 doesn't compete with the R5. It's designed to compete with the 1dx series. I believe the A7riv is the direct competitor to the R5. The A7sIII competes more along the lines with the R6, even though the R6 is a hybrid and the A7sIII is obviously focused on video.

I keep seeing everyone compare the a7sIII to the R5 and I can only assume it's because they were released at the same time. But in reality, they are two completely different-focused cameras.


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Jul 29, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> Is line skipping 4k on an 8k 45 MP sensor really going to be lower quality than non-line skipping 4k on a 12 MP sensor?



At the end of the day, likely. While each are reading the same amount of pixels, one will have pixels that are around 4 times larger. We've seen the issue of line skipping vs 12 megapixels on other camera series, like the A7R series vs the A7S. 

To someone who isn't pixel peeping, the line skipping high resolution sensor's 4k video really falls apart in low light compared to large pixel 4k on the same sensor or oversampling.


----------



## NorskHest (Jul 29, 2020)

StevenA said:


> Respectfully, your view seems very myopic - video myopic. Firstly, I think the R5 and the a7siii are focused on two entirely different breed of people. Me, for instance, love the idea of having 45mpx for landscape and wildlife photography WITH amazing IBIS that works with in conjunction with the RF lense IS to provide incredible handholding abilities. And I still have incredible 4k video abilities and, should the mood strike, 8k video from which I can grab a 35mpx still image which is AMAZING for those wildlife moments where you might find yourself doubting your skills to get just the 'right moment' shooting at 20fps - god forbid. All of that and more for $3900.
> 
> The Sony EXCELS at 4k video but I watched Gordon's vid on this camera and the video stabilizer doesn't look any better than the R5. Obviously its low light abilities with a 12mpx sensor are a foregone conclusion compared to the R5/R6. But, no animal eye focus, just 10fps, no 8k. Can I even grab a 35mpx still from 4k? Nope, maybe I can get one at 12mpx and hope I don't need to crop in too much? $3500.
> 
> ...


I mean they did shit it, but i still like canon. The R5 should not be advertised as a hybrid, it is a photo tool and it looks incredible. I am so balls deep in the canon system its ridiculous and i was really hoping to add to it and i still might with a 1dxmkiii but i am honestly not a mirror less fan. i love the mirror box. but what sony did with their camera has made me cancel my order for a c300mkiii. I also like camera shake, i am in the rare crowd here and i will say the ibis on the canon for my liking is too smooth, yes i said it. it looks like its on a gimbal. I am not knocking canon for taking risks but the only company doing 29:59 min limits into todays world is ridiculous, they need to stop protecting their cinema line. anyway im done with my all over response


----------



## NorskHest (Jul 29, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> Having been a long time stills shooter and somewhat video newbie, can someone help me out understanding the SD card specs needed for video on the R5?
> Page 904 of the R5 manual shows the different video recording modes and the associated SD card specs needed ie U3, V30, V60, V90.
> https://havecamerawilltravel.com/photographer/fastest-sd-cards/
> shows the actual sustained write and read speeds for SD cards and they don't appear to correlate with the marking eg Sandisk extreme Pro U3 is 4th fastest ie faster than some V90 cards. Does the SD card talk to the camera in HW about what rating is applicable or does it either work or not work?


you want the V90 pro grade makes some great and more affordable cards


----------



## derpderp (Jul 29, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Sony definitely seems like a better deal on the video part!
> Much more reliable and of course "usable".
> It's a shame. Was really hoping Canon would finally create a camera that added IBIS and no crop 4K. And they did, but then went backwards with the unpredictable over heating. Sucks.



unpredictable overheating? if there's one thing the R5 does well, it's that it overheats predictably


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 29, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> I actually wish the R5 was only a stills camera like the 5DSR and that the R6 would’ve been the video camera that would’ve made a lot of sense. They could’ve put like a pixel bend 4K with the R5 and called it a day and everyone would’ve been happy, they should’ve taken the 1DX and given that unlimited record time like the 1DC, and then the R6 should’ve been the holy grail for hybrid shooting




Mainly, unless you really want 8K, R6 is the one for video.

But unlike the Sony, R6 is also a really great photo camera...


----------



## David - Sydney (Jul 29, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> you want the V90 pro grade makes some great and more affordable cards


Prograde are hard to find. Amazon in Australia are the only distributor that I can find and they seem to out of stock. Their combined CFe/UHS-II card reader is out of stock globally.
Separately, I can see V30 cards that are UHS-I and rated at 95MB/s. 
Angelbird seems to be the only one available that are consistently V rated but my sandisk is already on its way so no way to cancel now. Will be interesting to test its capabilities when my R5 arrives.


----------



## tpatana (Jul 29, 2020)

I was mildly happy to finally see camera with proper 240fps video with AF and all.

However, it doesn't weigh enough against the bad things:
$3500
Sony
CFE Type A (???? like seriously, Sony is notorious for using other format than anyone else, but I thought they'd learn in 30 years...)
Sony
I don't have and native lenses

So for me it's easy pass, although I'd hope I find Canon mirrorless with 240fps too.


----------



## SteveC (Jul 29, 2020)

tpatana said:


> I was mildly happy to finally see camera with proper 240fps video with AF and all.
> 
> However, it doesn't weigh enough against the bad things:
> $3500
> ...



You forgot two things: Sony and Sony.

Oh, and Sony.


----------



## dichterDichter (Jul 29, 2020)

SteveC said:


> You forgot two things: Sony and Sony.
> 
> Oh, and Sony.


and against all proclamations before, it overheats. Cools down faster but it does and the menu is better but still looks crappy. So, im switching back to Canon. R6


----------



## tpatana (Jul 29, 2020)

SteveC said:


> You forgot two things: Sony and Sony.
> 
> Oh, and Sony.



I work for Xbox, I did add several of those mentally, just didn't want to type all night.


----------



## AlP (Jul 29, 2020)

The whole internet seems to be comparing the A7SIII to the R5. Makes no sense, but I think Canon marketing is at least in part to blame for that.

If I look at the website of Canon Japan, the R5 features pitched there from top to bottom are roughly (some are described in more detail than others):

sensor and processor
ISO range
Dual Pixel RAW
HDR PQ HEIF
IBIS and EF compatibility
8K and 4K video
AF including animal AF
Framerate
Battery
Ergonomics
Durability
Connectivity/wireless
Video is one item out of many and it comes at 6th place. This is the description of a stills camera with video functionality. I would agree with the message being conveyed there, this is how a 5D-line successor should look like (although in my opinion wireless capabilities should have a more prominent role in 2020)

However, the hype-building marketing before the R5 launch focused mostly on 8K video, a strong contrast to the above. The internet then just amplified the hype.
The R6? It's a mini-1DXIII for less than half the price with excellent 4K (limited in recording time though), launched at the same time as the R5, and it has never been mentioned.

That's could be fine, but then you have to deliver. And I am not talking about performance. Some of the A7SIII video "reviews" seem to be well prepared, indicating that the cameras were available weeks before launch and could be tested thoroughly.
R5 and R6? With the exception of Canon ambassadors, the others got mostly pre-production models for a limited time and were not allowed to test everything. And likely they got them after the A7SIII. That will inevitably lead to the type of comparisons we are seeing now.

Youtube is not everything and such thing can happen, but add this to a somewhat incoherent marketing message and it is no wonder that suddenly 12 MP on the Sony are more than enough for stills, while 20 MP on the R6 were a disaster. Go figure.

As usual, dust will settle at some point once people start using the tools for the purpose they were designed for.


----------



## fingerstein (Jul 29, 2020)

I'm a video shooter. I usually shoot on c100 mk ii. I'm still searching the perfect upgrade. A7siii seems to be the way to go. Having 4 audio channels is even better. I still miss the built in ND filter and that S35 crop mode.


----------



## padam (Jul 29, 2020)

AlP said:


> The whole internet seems to be comparing the A7SIII to the R5. Makes no sense, but I think Canon marketing is at least in part to blame for that.
> 
> Youtube is not everything and such thing can happen, but add this to a somewhat incoherent marketing message and it is no wonder that suddenly 12 MP on the Sony are more than enough for stills, while 20 MP on the R6 were a disaster. Go figure.
> 
> As usual, dust will settle at some point once people start using the tools for the purpose they were designed for.


No, it's actually not that. It is that Canon will not provide a direct alternative to the A7SIII as such, the R5 and R6 do provide some of features that the A7SIII does. (Some better some worse) So they are going to be compared as there is no A7IV to pitch against the R6 and it would be the same story again, some things better on one camera, others on the other.

So the alternative would be to say that the A7SIII is not comparable at all to any Canon and it is the default choice, Canon is still leaving the video by the wayside bla bla bla.

But it is not the A7S and A7SII vs DSLR Canon days anymore.
We are looking to have *really good *Canon mirrorless cameras with great IBIS, video features, and all that stuff.

So the big picture looks quite different, Sony has refined something that was very good (it's hard to argue about the A7SIII being very good, but it is expensive and does not act as a full replacement for everything), while Canon is coming in full steam ahead in 2020. Not perfect of course, but a huge change, all things considered. They are very serious tools for video even with the potential overheating problems, which can be mitigated with the R5 better since it has so many different recording modes and it isn't severe in about half of them (and the rolling shutter also becomes more comparable to the A7SIII which is its party piece). The R5 is the overall better video camera it looks like but of course the R6 might still be good.


I fully agree on the megapixel thing though, in the A7RII days it was that much better to have 42MP as opposed to 30MP in the 5D IV and suddenly 12MP is really enough.


----------



## AlP (Jul 29, 2020)

padam said:


> No, it's actually not that. It is that Canon will not provide a direct alternative to the A7SIII as such, the R5 and R6 do provide some of features that the A7SIII does. (Some better some worse) So they are going to be compared as there is no A7IV to pitch against the R6 and it would be the same story again, some things better on one camera, others on the other.
> 
> So the alternative would be to say that the A7SIII is not comparable at all to any Canon and it is the default choice, Canon is still leaving the video by the wayside bla bla bla.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree, but that wasn't my point. I am not talking about the products, and I am not talking about the camera market as a whole (that's why I started with "the whole internet", which was meant to be a bit sarcastic) or the big picture. I was mostly talking about Canon marketing and a certain incoherence in the message, and about delivering samples a bit late and with limitations about what can be tested.

One could of course argue that this will have limited impact on total sales, as the "internet" I mentioned is likely only a small subset of the target market (but for sure a loud one), and is therefore not that relevant. I would agree with that as well.

Personally I couldn't care less. My R5 should get here within the next 10 days and it looks like the perfect camera for what I intend to use it for


----------



## Michael Clark (Jul 29, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> So ok to mention Sony overheating (after an hour?), but everyone gangs up on ya if you mention Canon overheating at 20 minutes....then 3 minutes...



Yeah, just like it is OK to think this 12 MP camera is the greatest thing since sliced bread right after bitchin' about the R6 having _"only"_ 20 megapixels.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jul 29, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> The release says it can do 4K60P for over an hour. I see nothing about 4K120 limitations.
> 
> " even during extended continuous recording sessions at 4K 60p 10-bit 4:2:2 video lasting an hour or more. "
> 
> ...



It's a crop sensor?


----------



## padam (Jul 29, 2020)

AlP said:


> I don't disagree, but that wasn't my point. I am not talking about the products, and I am not talking about the camera market as a whole (that's why I started with "the whole internet", which was meant to be a bit sarcastic) or the big picture. I was mostly talking about Canon marketing and a certain incoherence in the message, and about delivering samples a bit late and with limitations about what can be tested.
> 
> One could of course argue that this will have limited impact on total sales, as the "internet" I mentioned is likely only a small subset of the target market (but for sure a loud one), and is therefore not that relevant. I would agree with that as well.
> 
> Personally I couldn't care less. My R5 should get here within the next 10 days and it looks like the perfect camera for what I intend to use it for


I don't see anything wrong with Canon's marketing. It should be attention grabbing and long-lasting, and the 8K is exactly that.

As the past perception was "they are leaving stills cameras (DSLRs) behind for video" while now they say "we are actually serious about FF mirrorless or about still cameras for video" which is actually true, they have a stils camera with an excellent sensor, that is actually able to shoot 8K before their Cinema cameras do - but of course they will leave some things to their Cinema cameras.

It is only the timing that's a pure coincidence and makes these comparisons all over the internet. In reality, there have been cameras with worse overheating and people had no trouble using them for their particular line of work. Same thing with the ISO, Sony is again looks to be the best, but is that really how most people shoot? Probably not, and Canon has once again made a significant step forward by utilising the whole sensor, so it also reaches an excellent level.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 29, 2020)

TomR said:


> i dont hate canon, i have been shooting canon since 2003, and i still have a 5d3. That said i am not loyal to any brand, i shoot sony, nikon and black magic as well. Canon dropped the ball here, if you cant see that youre just a fan boy.


I am a stills shooter... what ball, again?

Canon is yet to release an RF mount video camera.


----------



## basketballfreak6 (Jul 29, 2020)

So like I absolutely have no interest in video so maybe I am missing the point of all this but are people so upset at Canon because the R5, a compact hybrid prosumer camera, offering specs that's never been seen before in this form factor and at this price point, is not performing on par with a dedicated video camera that costs double or more in price? Yea Canon gone done f*cked up here. /sarcasm

Having said that I would absolutely love to see a R5 stripped of its top end video features and come out at a price like at least $1000 cheaper; some of the specs for a stills shooter such as myself especially with the IBIS and eye AF seems like real a game changer here.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jul 29, 2020)

basketballfreak6 said:


> So like I absolutely have no interest in video so maybe I am missing the point of all this but are people so upset at Canon because the R5, a compact hybrid prosumer camera, offering specs that's never been seen before in this form factor and at this price point, is not performing on par with a dedicated video camera that costs double or more in price? Yea Canon gone done f*cked up here. /sarcasm
> 
> Having said that I would absolutely love to see a R5 stripped of its top end video features and come out at a price like at least $1000 cheaper; some of the specs for a stills shooter such as myself especially with the IBIS and eye AF seems like real a game changer here.



The reason it has 45 MP resolution and can shoot 12/20fps is precisely because the video specs they were shooting for required the same kind of hardware that can do [email protected] 12/20 fps.


----------



## TomR (Jul 29, 2020)

Kit. said:


> I am a stills shooter... what ball, again?
> 
> Canin is yet to release an RF mount video camera.



great, enjoy this camera and the f11 lenses.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Jul 29, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The reason it has 45 MP resolution and can shoot 12/20fps is precisely because the video specs they were shooting for required the same kind of hardware that can do [email protected] 12/20 fps.


Agreed. This always seems to be forgotten


----------



## basketballfreak6 (Jul 29, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The reason it has 45 MP resolution and can shoot 12/20fps is precisely because the video specs they were shooting for required the same kind of hardware that can do [email protected] 12/20 fps.


Why can't it be the other way around?

Anyway it's all semantics; don't like a brand/camera, don't buy it/use it. I come on the forums to post photos (shocking I know) and for laughs at how aggressively angry and upset some individuals are at whatever is/not their favouite brands. As a Canon shooter I actually actively recommend people asking me for advice on getting a camera to also check out Nikon/Sony etc because they are typically better spec'ed (and more importantly find one that feels good in the hand that you'd actually enjoy using and suit your needs) than Canon offerings but for me personally I have zero inclination to swap because I don't find my Canon kit limiting and I've tried a Sony and disliked the ergo. Not to mention Canon has a great ecosystem and I've only had great experiences with Canon Australia's support.

But yea as much as I'd love a R5 I can't justify paying current Aussie pricing especially with me not shooting as much as before and not being able to travel (my M6II has taken over my day to day walk around duties from my 5DIV).


----------



## PerKr (Jul 29, 2020)

TomR said:


> great, enjoy this camera and the f11 lenses.



sucks being stuck in a system with no native AF f/1.2 lenses, doesn't it?


----------



## basketballfreak6 (Jul 29, 2020)

PerKr said:


> sucks being stuck in a system with no native AF f/1.2 lenses, doesn't it?


You know what people say about feeding trolls.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 29, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> I pre-ordered one. It suits my style of hybrid shooting quite well. I always felt the ideal hybrid MILC was one with a balanced set of specs.



I hope it works well for you! But... "ideal hybrid", really? Even DPR are pretty clear this isn't so much a hybrid as a video camera that can also shoot stills. Surely an ideal hybrid would do both to the same level. Given how many people said the R6 was DOA because it had "only" 20MP, I'd be surprised if most people thought 12MP was enough for stills shooting. So not ideal at all...?


----------



## scyrene (Jul 29, 2020)

TomR said:


> Canon dropped the ball here, if you cant see that youre just a fan boy.



Suuuuure. And you're totally unbiased, as everyone can see from your very balanced and not at all inflammatory and juvenile comments on this thread


----------



## scyrene (Jul 29, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> anyway im done with my all over response



Hooray! (But I won't hold my breath).


----------



## Kit. (Jul 29, 2020)

TomR said:


> great, enjoy this camera and the f11 lenses.


I don't need them, I have 100-400L II, so...?

What would be your next puny attempt at trolling?


----------



## tron (Jul 29, 2020)

TomR said:


> great, enjoy this camera and the f11 lenses.


There are also 15-35 and 24-70 f/2.8L IS zoom lenses for the first time, a 1Kg 70-200 2.8L IS there is a f/2.0 28-70 there is a new 50 1.2L and 2 new 85 1.2L lenses. So many other lenses to enjoy...


----------



## mariosk1gr (Jul 29, 2020)

Accroding to Dan Watson's review of a7s III I don't see Sony to be the game changer at all! R5 has less rolling shutter and much better IBIS. Regarding 4k R5 oversampling at 23.98/25/30p has the edge over the sony. Sony from the other has the edge in 4k/60p and 120p cause its readout is 1:1. R6 accroding to Tony Northrup has better 4k than a7s III and better low light until iso 12800 (Ofc R6 can't do 120fps). And I say until because a7s iii has dual iso and at 16000 and up, image gets cleaned by noise. From color perspective I don't like at all a7s III colors. The same muted colors as always.... better though than a7s ii. According to Dan again a7s iii at exterior shooting is overheated faster than R5. R5 from the other overheated faster when shooting interior. Regarding stills there is no competition at all ofc! So people need to understand that spec sheet doesn't tell anything and the real world experience with these cameras is the "key"! For me as a hybrid shooter the R5 ticks all the boxes and it's not threatened at all from a7s III. And Im sure that Canon will find a solution in near future to extend recording times on R5 and R6.


----------



## DBounce (Jul 29, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> There's nothing at this price point and form factor. I honestly have no idea why video shooters love the SLR style so much—they're designed for viewfinder use—but they do seem to so who am I to argue.


It’s simple, no one bothers you if they think you are taking photographs. Professional video cameras prompt the “do you have a permit to film” questions. They are commonly referred to as “permit cameras”. So long story short, mirrorless bodies fly under the radar.


----------



## DBounce (Jul 29, 2020)

I bought the R5 and the Sony A7S3. I needed a good stills body for my $12k worth of RF glass. But I also wanted a great stealthy video capable body. I do about 65% video. I wish Canon would have made the R5 more reliable for video. I’m also disappointed in the short battery life. It’s a great camera, with some serious limitations. The Sony tilts the opposite direction, great for video, so so for stills. Neither camera checks both boxes. I’ll give credit to Sony for at least being reliable. Somehow the cripple hammer has struck again. These are my initial thoughts, I’ll reserve final judgement until I’ve had a chance to use both bodies for some time.


----------



## David Hull (Jul 29, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Lo


Bert63 said:


> Are they really? I'm not a hardcore video shooter so I'm dumber than the average bear when it comes to stuff like this but to me it seems like a lot of money for that camera.
> 
> I see it can shoot 4K60P for over an hour so that's a good thing if that's something you need. So kudos.
> 
> What is so appealing that makes it worth that kind of money - and I'm not being sarcastic - a compare and contrast in an 'explain it like I'm five' kind of way would be very helpful.


This seems like a pretty specialized camera to me. A lot of people seem to be impressed that it shoots video without overheating. I would say that is indeed fortunate since video seems to be mostly what it is targeted at. I would think that the R5 (or one of the other Sony's) would be a better choice for an "allrounder" solution. It is still not clear to me that the shooting time limitations of the R5 are going to turn out to be a big issue for most people who are considering the camera. I would consider the 12MP a limitation these days -- that's like 10 years ago in resolution.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 29, 2020)

Juangrande said:


> They’re not protest they’re riots, call them what they are. #journalismnotpropaganda


Terrorist or liberator history defines the appropriate noun.


----------



## SteveC (Jul 29, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Terrorist or liberator history defines the appropriate noun.



But even "liberator" implies they had to engage in some violence to do what they did. It's a distinction of motivation, rather than means. "Protester" or "rioter" is two different means.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 29, 2020)

SteveC said:


> But even "liberator" implies they had to engage in some violence to do what they did. It's a distinction of motivation, rather than means. "Protester" or "rioter" is two different means.


No it doesn’t, bloodless coups etc. But I feel the greater point was made.


----------



## jayphotoworks (Jul 29, 2020)

scyrene said:


> I hope it works well for you! But... "ideal hybrid", really? Even DPR are pretty clear this isn't so much a hybrid as a video camera that can also shoot stills. Surely an ideal hybrid would do both to the same level. Given how many people said the R6 was DOA because it had "only" 20MP, I'd be surprised if most people thought 12MP was enough for stills shooting. So not ideal at all...?



I should not have said ideal hybrid. 12MP is not enough for stills to which I agree wholeheartedly, but Canon didn't really have to throw 8K and everything else in the R5. It could have settled for less than 45MP and balanced the video specs a bit more to achieve a bit more runtime while still getting enough stills resolution.

Constrained by physics and cost, manufacturers have either chosen a porridge too hot or a porridge too cold approach and nobody has made a porridge good enough that everyone wants to just eat all of it...


----------



## Kit. (Jul 29, 2020)

DBounce said:


> I’ll give credit to Sony for at least being reliable.


Is it, though?


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 29, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> It's a crop sensor?




No, full-frame.


----------



## jayphotoworks (Jul 29, 2020)

mariosk1gr said:


> Accroding to Dan Watson's review of a7s III I don't see Sony to be the game changer at all! R5 has less rolling shutter and much better IBIS. Regarding 4k R5 oversampling at 23.98/25/30p has the edge over the sony. Sony from the other has the edge in 4k/60p and 120p cause its readout is 1:1. R6 accroding to Tony Northrup has better 4k than a7s III and better low light until iso 12800 (Ofc R6 can't do 120fps). And I say until because a7s iii has dual iso and at 16000 and up, image gets cleaned by noise. From color perspective I don't like at all a7s III colors. The same muted colors as always.... better though than a7s ii. According to Dan again a7s iii at exterior shooting is overheated faster than R5. R5 from the other overheated faster when shooting interior. Regarding stills there is no competition at all ofc! So people need to understand that spec sheet doesn't tell anything and the real world experience with these cameras is the "key"! For me as a hybrid shooter the R5 ticks all the boxes and it's not threatened at all from a7s III. And Im sure that Canon will find a solution in near future to extend recording times on R5 and R6.



Rolling shutter is misleading. I can show you great rolling shutter on a smaller sensor like a ZV1/RX100 or a larger FF sensor that is line skipped. I can even show you great rolling shutter by dropping the bit depth as well sacrificing DR. If you look at sensor spec sheets, some of them will detail this. The 1DX3 can ramp up rolling shutter performance in 4K60, but drop down to 30ms in 24/30p. 

Honestly, digital cameras now have gotten so spec-laden that you have to study things that have nothing to do with photography or cinematography just to get a handle on how it all works. Nobody even tries to understand or talk about sensor equivalence or DoF anymore because we are being thrown with a million more things to worry about like cooling and readouts. Even a stills shooter has to understand subsampling now because HEIF is based on HEVC..


----------



## scyrene (Jul 29, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> I should not have said ideal hybrid. 12MP is not enough for stills to which I agree wholeheartedly, but Canon didn't really have to throw 8K and everything else in the R5. It could have settled for less than 45MP and balanced the video specs a bit more to achieve a bit more runtime while still getting enough stills resolution.
> 
> Constrained by physics and cost, manufacturers have either chosen a porridge too hot or a porridge too cold approach and nobody has made a porridge good enough that everyone wants to just eat all of it...



Fair enough  Fwiw I don't think there is a 'just right' camera body even in principle. Well, not at the high end, which FF is - for the population at large, maybe it's an iPhone (or other brand equivalent).

But I don't get the problem with including 8K. They didn't have to, but they haven't compromised the camera by doing so - it works for short to medium length clips, and nobody has to use it. Canon was criticised for years for 'withholding' features their bodies could maybe have managed (Magic Lantern gave an insight into that), and this time they didn't, and they're being criticised for _that _(by some folk). Also my suspicion is the heat issues are linked to the extra special IBIS, but time will tell on that one.


----------



## SteveC (Jul 29, 2020)

scyrene said:


> Canon was criticised for years for 'withholding' features their bodies could maybe have managed (Magic Lantern gave an insight into that), and this time they didn't, and they're being criticised for _that _(by some folk). Also my suspicion is the heat issues are linked to the extra special IBIS, but time will tell on that one.



It's damned if they do, damned if they don't...Sony will pay people to troll them either way.


----------



## mariosk1gr (Jul 29, 2020)

One Critical question about Sony a7s III is why there is a switch to use regarding overheating? If you turn on switch the a7s III will shut down after 20min in 4k, while if you turn it off it will run until the battery dies. But in the latter case the heat will get up in a very highly dangerous numbers! So the MAIN question here regarding reliability is if the camera will survive after numerous recordings for a long time while the switch is off. If its going to destroy the camera after a while, then what's the point here? just to surpass recording times of R5 or any other camera but at the same time to put the camera itself in danger? or am I missing something else here?


----------



## scyrene (Jul 29, 2020)

SteveC said:


> It's damned if they do, damned if they don't...Sony will pay people to troll them either way.



Paid or not, I do wonder if Sony 'fans' are the worst in this regard? It feels like that here, but I don't look at Nikon or Sony forums - are Canonites trolling there? We see very little pro-Nikon stuff here like that. It's pretty toxic, anyhow.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 29, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Yeah, just like it is OK to think this 12 MP camera is the greatest thing since sliced bread right after bitchin' about the R6 having _"only"_ 20 megapixels.



Way to go at diverting the topic of my post. 

I never said any of those things.


----------



## DBounce (Jul 29, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Is it, though?


More reliable than the R5. What other choices are there that actually have usable AF in a Full Frame body?


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 29, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> I film a lot of protest and political content, the ability to do foto and video is indespensible as a freelancer. I sell footage and go into places most don't so to have both is a must. Here in Minneapolis I was out shooting and my 16-35 and 1dc were hit by rubber bullets, amazing the lens was ok and so was the body. They were not point blank but there was a blunt object that hit them. There is no denying that there is a place and time for all sorts of cameras but the low light of this a7 camera will allow for cleaner and more usable content. While out filming protests I witnessed people tying to steal news crews big cameras and people tried taking mine aswell but a slr style body is something tou can actually hold and run with if you need to. Will a sony take a betting like a 1d? probably not but to have both is a great thing. on a side not all these great tools coming out we never could have dreamed of, there is often so much anger and shit talk from our tribalism that we dont actually look and the genius ehind the tech. if you shoot sony thats great, if you shoot canon, thats great too. we should stop always fighting and just start capturing and using and adapting the tools that best suit us. and here is a link of what i shoot.
> https://www.fox9.com/news/the-fall-of-the-third-precinct-a-timeline-of-events



I totally appreciate the PJ/ENG use cases you and some other folks brought up. I guess at the end of the day, any alternatives in terms of form factor are going to have pretty big drawbacks. Thanks, all!


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 29, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> I should not have said ideal hybrid. 12MP is not enough for stills to which I agree wholeheartedly, but Canon didn't really have to throw 8K and everything else in the R5. It could have settled for less than 45MP and balanced the video specs a bit more to achieve a bit more runtime while still getting enough stills resolution.



Gerald Undone had a really good point about the stills on this camera. If you need a poster frame, or a BTS shot, or just shooting for IG this camera is great. A few extra niche uses as well, e.g. astro. 12 MP is enough if you're just asked to get a few group shots, an environmental portrait, etc. Just like the R5 is great if you're being asked to shoot a quick BTS interview video or a cinemagraph for IG, etc.


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jul 29, 2020)

mariosk1gr said:


> One Critical question about Sony a7s III is why there is a switch to use regarding overheating? If you turn on switch the a7s III will shut down after 20min in 4k, while if you turn it off it will run until the battery dies. But in the latter case the heat will get up in a very highly dangerous numbers! So the MAIN question here regarding reliability is if the camera will survive after numerous recordings for a long time while the switch is off. If its going to destroy the camera after a while, then what's the point here? just to surpass recording times of R5 or any other camera but at the same time to put the camera itself in danger? or am I missing something else here?



This is a good point. We do not know about the _long term_ reliability of the A7SIII. If they start bricking after the warranty is up, that's a big oof.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 29, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> This is a good point. We do not know about the _long term_ reliability of the A7SIII. If they start bricking after the warranty is up, that's a big oof.



I posted similar point elsewhere. There was a video review where the A7s3 overheated and shut down sooner than R5 (outdoors, but not indoors) and the guy was measuring the body's temps. The Sony got higher. Making me think the Sony will over time will go into permanent failure and require replacement/repair.

So maybe sony's new heat transfer management is...just let it get hotter before shutting down? 

OK, found the video:


----------



## KirkD (Jul 29, 2020)

Just watched Jared's comparison between the video on the R5 and this Sony. The Sony did not overheat, period. However, when comparing the two video results side by side, the Canon was noticeably sharper right out of the camera, and he noted this as well. You can see for yourself at the 19:50 mark in the video


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jul 29, 2020)

KirkD said:


> Just watched Jared's comparison between the video on the R5 and this Sony. The Sony did not overheat, period. However, when comparing the two video results side by side, the Canon was noticeably sharper right out of the camera, and he noted this as well. You can see for yourself at the 19:50 mark in the video



That was my observation too. Regardless, the image quality on all of them is fine without any comparisons. Anyone who trashes any camera at this point for image quality is delusional or just being a fanboy without any objectivity.

I also recommend taking any of these youtube video reviews with a grain of salt. Many are shameless fanboy/fangirls of brands so the bias will creep into the reviews and even into these tests. They can even edit it so that side by side comparisons may favor one over the other. It is strange because I've seen various tests and all have yielded different results. The best endorsement comes from a couple of known Canon users, Potato Jet and Matti Haapoja. They are video/cinema first so the camera absolutely caters to them, but they rave about the A7SIII so unless they sold their souls to Sony, you know the A7SIII is a great camera for video.

I won't be getting the Sony and never considered it as all my lenses are Canon. Still patiently waiting for the R5. But I can appreciate what a great job Sony did in making a camera for video-centric users. In the hands of talented creators, any of these cameras would produce amazing results. Look at what Armando Ferreira was able to do with the R5.

For the Sony A7SIII, Phillip Bloom wins.


----------



## Th0msky (Jul 30, 2020)

How did sony managed to pull off a system where the camera has an in-build cooling system AND weather sealing where the R5/R6 failed?


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Jul 30, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> I posted similar point elsewhere. There was a video review where the A7s3 overheated and shut down sooner than R5 (outdoors, but not indoors) and the guy was measuring the body's temps. The Sony got higher. Making me think the Sony will over time will go into permanent failure and require replacement/repair.
> 
> So maybe sony's new heat transfer management is...just let it get hotter before shutting down?
> 
> OK, found the video:



The Sony likely got hotter because it transfers more heat through the body, hence why it was more effected by ambient temperature changes. 

The Canon doesn't have much difference in record times whether inside or outside. But that's also likely why it has an astronomically long recovery time.


----------



## DBounce (Jul 30, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> Rolling shutter is misleading. I can show you great rolling shutter on a smaller sensor like a ZV1/RX100 or a larger FF sensor that is line skipped. I can even show you great rolling shutter by dropping the bit depth as well sacrificing DR. If you look at sensor spec sheets, some of them will detail this. The 1DX3 can ramp up rolling shutter performance in 4K60, but drop down to 30ms in 24/30p.
> 
> Honestly, digital cameras now have gotten so spec-laden that you have to study things that have nothing to do with photography or cinematography just to get a handle on how it all works. Nobody even tries to understand or talk about sensor equivalence or DoF anymore because we are being thrown with a million more things to worry about like cooling and readouts. Even a stills shooter has to understand subsampling now because HEIF is based on HEVC..


Only thing is, Dan Watson was shooting in the HQ mode. The R5 has a new sensor with extremely fast readout. Sorry to tell you, it’s legitimately faster than the Sony... so far less jello effect. Near as I can tell, the only real issue with the R5 is overheat. But we know now that issue also exists for the Sony. And that’s an interesting point. Sony handed out the A7S3’s like candy on Halloween. They apparently gave the YouTube influences free trips all over the place so that they would give good reviews. Only Dan is speaking up about the overheating on the Sony... and Sony is totally silent on the issue... just like the last time their cameras were overheating. That should be pretty telling.

In any case I’m getting both. If I find I’m gravitating towards one all the time and the other is a paperweight, I’ll just sell it. No big deal really.


----------



## derpderp (Jul 30, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> I pre-ordered one. It suits my style of hybrid shooting quite well. I always felt the ideal hybrid MILC was one with a balanced set of specs. Don't need RAW, don't want high-bitrates, don't need 8K. When I need those specs, I have my cine camera along with the budget and crew to support it. Here is what I like about shooting video on Sony, which continues with the S3.
> 
> - Single interface for audio. No need for dangling 3.5mm cables
> - Dual card recording for redundancy and no need for new media immediately. My V90 UHS-II cards continue to work and I only need to carry 1 type of media.
> ...



you sounds like you're pretty happy with sony cameras. makes me wonder why you're still here.


----------



## derpderp (Jul 30, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Canon don't need to do anything, the R5 and the sleeper R6 are going to be hits with primarily photographers, Sony look like they have done a very accomplished incremental upgrade in the α7S III, but it is overwhelmingly a video camera and less a hybrid.
> 
> I don't see any competition at all if you know what market you are in the choice is pretty clear. Unfortunately for Canon most YouTube personalities and social media influencers are in the Sony video centric market, they shoot video and don't care about stills resolution over 1080px instagram posts, but I do not believe they represent the market in general. I have zero need for an α7S III, I will be getting an R5.
> 
> Indeed even comparing the α7S III and R5 is intrinsically biased (one way or the other) as their feature sets are as diametrically opposed as possible. Compare the R5 to the α7R IV, compare the R6 to the α7 III, truthfully Canon haven't pitched a video centric hybrid in the α7S III market.



As was the case with the EOS R, most of those influencers would jump on the Sony hypetrain but then realise after a while that Canon was actually the one who delivered the better overall product. The EOS R5 is the better camera in every respect except for capturing long form 4K videos.


----------



## nickvera (Jul 30, 2020)

DBounce said:


> Only thing is, Dan Watson was shooting in the HQ mode. The R5 has a new sensor with extremely fast readout. Sorry to tell you, it’s legitimately faster than the Sony... so far less jello effect. Near as I can tell, the only real issue with the R5 is overheat. But we know now that issue also exists for the Sony. And that’s an interesting point. Sony handed out the A7S3’s like candy on Halloween. They apparently gave the YouTube influences free trips all over the place so that they would give good reviews. Only Dan is speaking up about the overheating on the Sony... and Sony is totally silent on the issue... just like the last time their cameras were overheating. That should be pretty telling.
> 
> In any case I’m getting both. If I find I’m gravitating towards one all the time and the other is a paperweight, I’ll just sell it. No big deal really.



Dan Watson was the only one who said the R5 had less rolling shutter. That is complete rubbish. The videos weren't even synced correctly because his set up was not done correctly. When whip panning the cameras were looking at slight different angles. He should have stacked the cameras on top of one another with slight tilts. Every other test shows the Canon R5 has more rolling shutter. Though the performance is still great for a 45mp sensor. I think the Canon R series are great photo cameras. Video cameras, not really. I think the overheating thing is a big issue and makes the camera unusable on long form shoots. But for quick grabs, its great! Also Dan has his own biases, I wouldn't really look at his testing as final word. You should always do your own tests. Nonetheless in three years the cameras will be old machines XD


----------



## Mark3794 (Jul 30, 2020)

This thing keeps overheating even when the temp threshold is set to high. Where are all the R5 overheating trolls?


----------



## mariosk1gr (Jul 30, 2020)

Gerald Undone what a dishonesty man!! OMG I wonder why this so much hatred about R5! How a reviewer can cause so much faulty opinions regarding a product... he really deserves a lawsuit from Canon. He points all weaknesses of R5 and he even mentions that you shouldn't buy it even as a hybrid shooter! 
I wonder how much Sony pay these guys!

Enjoy this pathetic man...

 Sony a7s III vs Canon R5 DISCUSSION with Gerald Undone


----------



## derpderp (Jul 30, 2020)

nickvera said:


> Dan Watson was the only one who said the R5 had less rolling shutter. That is complete rubbish. The videos weren't even synced correctly because his set up was not done correctly. When whip panning the cameras were looking at slight different angles. He should have stacked the cameras on top of one another with slight tilts. Every other test shows the Canon R5 has more rolling shutter. Though the performance is still great for a 45mp sensor. I think the Canon R series are great photo cameras. Video cameras, not really. I think the overheating thing is a big issue and makes the camera unusable on long form shoots. But for quick grabs, its great! Also Dan has his own biases, I wouldn't really look at his testing as final word. You should always do your own tests. Nonetheless in three years the cameras will be old machines XD



another Sony apologist spotted!


----------



## AlP (Jul 30, 2020)

Th0msky said:


> How did sony managed to pull off a system where the camera has an in-build cooling system AND weather sealing where the R5/R6 failed?



I don't know how the R5/R6 gets the heat away from sensor and processor as I didn't take one apart and Canon didn't specify how heat sinking is done inside the cameras. However, the Sony does that (apparently) by trying to transfer the sensor and processor heat to a large part of the camera body with a kind of heat spreading system within the camera body. The whole body acts as a large heatsink but without having to rely solely on the thermal conductivity of the body itself to transfer the heat from the areas where the thermal coupling between sensor/processor and the body takes place and outside. Can't find the place where they said what material they are using for that, but I saw a rendering of the system.

That is likely why the R5 needs a much longer recovery time. Once internal parts reach high temperatures, the heat cannot be transferred very fast to outside the camera as either the thermal coupling to the camera body is weaker or it is limited to a small area of the body and the heat first needs to spread from there.

The Sony, on the other hand, could have a disadvantage: If the camera body is heated from outside, heat transfer to sensor/processor will also be more effective (as cooling is passive). That doesn't mean that the body will be heating the electronics, but that the temperature gradient will be lower and therefore cooling efficiency might drop faster. This could explain why in at least one test under the sun the Sony camera started overheating before the R5. The Sony will recover faster if the camera body is allowed to cool down though.

What would be interesting to see is how this affects IBIS performance. Better heat transfer from the sensor needs more material, and that material also better couples vibrations from outside to the sensor which the IBIS mechanism tries to keep stable. Quite possible that Sony opted to improve heat transfer while accepting compromises in IBIS performance (which is what seems to be the case by looking at some videos without Gimbal) while Canon decided to maximise IBIS performance and accepted compromises in sensor heat transfer and cooling times.

Finally it boils down to what the cameras were designed for and to the technical choices which have to be made in order to reach the design goals. So, this tells nothing about the engineering capabilities of one or the other brand. It might well be that Canon decided to compromise on heat transfer as that would allow an outer shell made in one piece or would simplify final assembly thus reducing manufacturing cost and allowing the camera to stay within the specified budget.

Let's see if LensRentals will do a full teardown of these cameras. Unfortunately I am not willing to sacrifice the warranty on my R5 to find out myself


----------



## -pekr- (Jul 30, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Gerald Undone had a really good point about the stills on this camera. If you need a poster frame, or a BTS shot, or just shooting for IG this camera is great. A few extra niche uses as well, e.g. astro. 12 MP is enough if you're just asked to get a few group shots, an environmental portrait, etc. Just like the R5 is great if you're being asked to shoot a quick BTS interview video or a cinemagraph for IG, etc.



Sound like Bill Gates decades ago - 640 KB is enough just for anyone


----------



## usern4cr (Jul 30, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> This thing keeps overheating even when the temp threshold is set to high. Where are all the R5 overheating trolls?


So, this was a careful verification re-test in the Florida sun at 4K 60FPS. The A7s3 can have the overheat temp warning set to normal or high. On high it will run longer but put the camera at more risk. He put it on "high temp warning" to see how long it would last.
The results:
On one of his tests the A7s3 overheated first and shut off and trashed the recorded file - yes, *it trashed it!*
On the subsequent test the A7s3 overheated first and shut off well before the Canon.

Now I'm a stills shooter, but all you video shooters complaining about the Canon heating issue should take notice and start shouting about the A7s3 overheating if you want to be fair.

I'm getting the R5 for its wonderful build quality, lenses & stills use. I'll get into video for fun. Whether you get either camera I hope you get out and take stills & video and enjoy it!


----------



## tron (Jul 30, 2020)

Obviously sony trolls do not care to comment on A7S3 trashing the recorded video at "high temp warning" setting.

One could say that A7S3 does not overheat, it trashes! 

On a serious note the only thing that would get my attention in A7S3 would be astrophotography photos compared to downscaled ones (to 12Mp) from R6, R5 and R (obviously at same settings, environment, etc. I am stating the obvious for well ... sony trolls!)


----------



## Mark3794 (Jul 30, 2020)

tron said:


> Obviously sony trolls do not care to comment on A7S3 trashing the recorded video at "high temp warning" setting.
> 
> One could say that A7S3 does not overheat, it trashes!
> 
> On a serious note the only thing that would get my attention in A7S3 would be astrophotography photos compared to downscaled ones (to 12Mp) from R6, R5 and R (obviously at same settings, environment, etc. I am stating the obvious for well ... sony trolls!)



I think they still have some problems with the "star-eater"


----------



## tron (Jul 30, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> I think they still have some problems with the "star-eater"


Wow I had forgotten about that! But I believe they had alleviated this problem somewhat. But thank you. I will stick to my trusty Canons


----------



## jayphotoworks (Jul 30, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> So, this was a careful verification re-test in the Florida sun at 4K 60FPS. The A7s3 can have the overheat temp warning set to normal or high. On high it will run longer but put the camera at more risk. He put it on "high temp warning" to see how long it would last.
> The results:
> On one of his tests the A7s3 overheated first and shut off and trashed the recorded file - yes, *it trashed it!*
> On the subsequent test the A7s3 overheated first and shut off well before the Canon.
> ...



I really want to see a more controlled test and verifiable with more people. All of the other testers ranging from people in North America to Hong Kong don't report the same overheating outcome or file trashing. I've even seen attacks against Gerald Undone now even though he was always regarded quite well.. In addition, Dan's rolling shutter shutter test was not mounted correctly. We will simply have to wait for both cameras to be in the market in people's hands to truly find out the outcome unless a tester with more of a pedigree in testing methodology comes out with a proper test first.

Personally, I would fail miserably at doing some of these tests TBH. I didn't even realize upon cursory observation that mounting the camera a certain way would affect the outcome. It appears to be common sense, but like any tests there are many variables that affect the outcome and is why I don't test cameras because I would probably have made the same mistake. This is also why scientific findings are usually peer reviewed. A commenter on Dan's video bringing up this point is not necessarily a "Sony troll or apologist.." In the opposing camp, most people report the R5 and R6 will overheat and I've almost seen none that says it doesn't including the lengthy recovery times. But I'm more skeptical about that one comment that video recording time was at 0min after taking a bunch of photos outdoors. If 1 tester came out tomorrow saying the opposite or even making a bold claim, I would be skeptical.. wouldn't you? Just like if the science community says close contact with people without a mask increases your chance of spreading covid-19 tenfold, would you then want to right off the bat believe "some unnamed leader" that you don't need a mask at all?

It's great forum cannon fodder to argue these points, but does little so far to move the argument in any one direction. I think I'm guilty of that too sometimes, but hope I can at least add something to this discussion because things like runtime and rolling shutter are important to me as I work with these tools day in and day out in the field. If finally a proper test comes out and the Sony does indeed overheat after 30mins in the sun, but can run essentially unlimited everywhere else, I'll find a way to work around those limitations because there is nothing else in the market that has decent AF right now that can offer more for how I work.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 30, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Sound like Bill Gates decades ago - 640 KB is enough just for anyone


While Bill Gates gave enough reasons to be hated, this BS is not one of them.

In fact, it was IBM that decided that _512k_ would be enough. Rumors say that it was Bill Gates who managed to convince them to increase it to at least 640k.


----------



## nickvera (Jul 30, 2020)

derpderp said:


> another Sony apologist spotted!



k keyboard warrior, notice i didn't say anything about the overheating Dan found at high frame rate video capture, but okay, whatever makes you sleep better


----------



## Darrell Cadieux (Jul 31, 2020)

Sony a7S III Overheats Faster than EOS R5 in Some Cases: Report


During the a7S III announcement, Sony made much of the heat dissipation technology that allegedly allows the camera to record 4K/60p video internally for




petapixel.com


----------



## derpderp (Jul 31, 2020)

nickvera said:


> k keyboard warrior, notice i didn't say anything about the overheating Dan found at high frame rate video capture, but okay, whatever makes you sleep better



lmao excuses, typical tactics employed by a Sony apologist.


----------



## nickvera (Jul 31, 2020)

derpderp said:


> lmao excuses, typical tactics employed by a Sony apologist.



i feel bad for you bro


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 2, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> No, full-frame.



The why call it a "smaller sensor" if it is 36x24 millimeters?


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 2, 2020)

Th0msky said:


> How did sony managed to pull off a system where the camera has an in-build cooling system AND weather sealing where the R5/R6 failed?



Probably the same way that Sony has other bodies with "weather sealing" that isn't very weather/water resistant.


*About Getting Your Camera Wet… Teardown of a Salty Sony A7sII*
By Roger Cicala


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 2, 2020)

tron said:


> Wow I had forgotten about that! But I believe they had alleviated this problem somewhat. But thank you. I will stick to my trusty Canons



Every time Sony introduces a new model they claim they have "solved" the star eater problem. Then various independent reviewers actually test it doing real world astro work and report that Sony has improved it slightly, but it is still far more of an issue with Sony sensors than with other sensors.


----------



## usern4cr (Aug 2, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Probably the same way that Sony has other bodies with "weather sealing" that isn't very weather/water resistant.
> 
> 
> *About Getting Your Camera Wet… Teardown of a Salty Sony A7sII*
> By Roger Cicala


I always knew how bad Sony cameras were about NOT being weather resistant, but Rogers careful teardown and analysis of how Sony designed the camera WITHOUT proper sealing in part after part after part after ... (you get the picture!) makes me not want to EVER consider buying a high-end Sony camera. For those of you considering buying the A7S3 or any A7... take a good look at this teardown! - Your "disposable income" might be buying a "disposable camera"!


----------



## padam (Aug 2, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> I always knew how bad Sony cameras were about NOT being weather resistant, but Rogers careful teardown and analysis of how Sony designed the camera WITHOUT proper sealing in part after part after part after ... (you get the picture!) makes me not want to EVER consider buying a high-end Sony camera. For those of you considering buying the A7S3 or any A7... take a good look at this teardown! - Your "disposable income" might be buying a "disposable camera"!


To be fair, two generations have passed since then, looking at the A7RIV they have improved the weather-sealing since then, although I don't expect it to be as good as the R5.
The EOS R is overall not as well-sealed as a 6D Mark II, even though Canon claims it is. The RP is even weaker as expected.
So I am sceptical about the R5, it will be good for a mirrorless camera, but claiming to be as good as a 5D Mark IV might be a bit of a stretch.






It is the Sony IBIS fractures that seemed to slip under the radar (they never provided any response to that), those plastic retaining clips may still break under pressure, and they might not be detected without disassembly if there is only a slight misalignment on the sensor.


----------



## usern4cr (Aug 2, 2020)

padam said:


> To be fair, two generations have passed since then, looking at the A7RIV they have improved the weather-sealing since then, although I don't expect it to be as good as the R5.
> The EOS R is overall not as well-sealed as a 6D Mark II, even though Canon claims it is. The RP is even weaker as expected.
> So I am sceptical about the R5, it will be good for a mirrorless camera, but claiming to be as good as a 5D Mark IV might be a bit of a stretch.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the post. I'm also hoping the R5 weather sealing is good. In fact I'm counting on it, since I just got my R5 a couple days ago. I've heard that the top end Canon DSLRs have superb weather sealing, and I do know that my Olympus EM1_II has superb (possibly the best) weather sealing. Too bad Olympus stayed only with the small sensor and is now folding. But when I have all my RF lenses I'll be able to give my cherished Olympus gear to my brother who will inherit a wonderful camera & lenses that'll last longer than any new Sony bodies & lenses that are being sold now!


----------



## Bert63 (Aug 2, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The why call it a "smaller sensor" if it is 36x24 millimeters?


Megapickle count is smaller.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 2, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Megapickle count is smaller.



That's "fewer" or "less" pixels, not a "smaller" sensor.


----------



## briangus (Aug 2, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Thanks for the post. I'm also hoping the R5 weather sealing is good. In fact I'm counting on it, since I just got my R5 a couple days ago. I've heard that the top end Canon DSLRs have superb weather sealing, and I do know that my Olympus EM1_II has superb (possibly the best) weather sealing. Too bad Olympus stayed only with the small sensor and is now folding. But when I have all my RF lenses I'll be able to give my cherished Olympus gear to my brother who will inherit a wonderful camera & lenses that'll last longer than any new Sony bodies & lenses that are being sold now!



And to quote Roger @ Lens Rental on the EOSR tear down

Speaking of the Sony A7RIII, it’s taken a bit of internet trashing for its lack of weather sealing. Throw no stones from your glass house, oh Canon shooters. The Canon EOS R is just about the same; well-sealed buttons and dials, not much else. That means, I think, that it will be fine in a misty rain for a while, but don’t get it saturated and don’t set it somewhere wet.


----------



## BeenThere (Aug 2, 2020)

briangus said:


> And to quote Roger @ Lens Rental on the EOSR tear down
> 
> Speaking of the Sony A7RIII, it’s taken a bit of internet trashing for its lack of weather sealing. Throw no stones from your glass house, oh Canon shooters. The Canon EOS R is just about the same; well-sealed buttons and dials, not much else. That means, I think, that it will be fine in a misty rain for a while, but don’t get it saturated and don’t set it somewhere wet.


Right, not the underwater camera that some wanted, but at least heating is not a problem underwater.


----------



## Bert63 (Aug 2, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> That's "fewer" or "less" pixels, not a "smaller" sensor.



Yes, you are more correct. I shoudl have used a different word.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 2, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> That's "fewer" or "less" pixels, not a "smaller" sensor.



Early in my computer days I told someone I wanted a larger hard drive (larger than 40MB, so now I've dated myself) and he joked about finding me a really physically huge one about ten years old that would have been as big as the rest of the PC, if not one of those ones the size of a clothes washer...but maybe only held 5 MB. He knew what I meant, of course, he was just pulling my chain (and I ended up with a 120MB hard drive that was cheaper than the 40MB had been).

And yes MB is not a typo; I still remember how excited I was to get a 1/2 GB hard drive the next time after that.

(Of course with cameras, physical size of the sensor is much more of a consideration than physical size of a hard drive, so using the word "larger" for pickle count is, as you point out, fraught with hazards.)


----------



## londonxt (Aug 3, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> It’s weird seeing canon push the envelope and have reliability issues and now we are seeing Sony becoming the reliable workhorse.



And you say that with zero real world long-term use of either?!


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 3, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Early in my computer days I told someone I wanted a larger hard drive (larger than 40MB, so now I've dated myself) and he joked about finding me a really physically huge one about ten years old that would have been as big as the rest of the PC, if not one of those ones the size of a clothes washer...but maybe only held 5 MB. He knew what I meant, of course, he was just pulling my chain (and I ended up with a 120MB hard drive that was cheaper than the 40MB had been).
> 
> And yes MB is not a typo; I still remember how excited I was to get a 1/2 GB hard drive the next time after that.
> 
> (Of course with cameras, physical size of the sensor is much more of a consideration than physical size of a hard drive, so using the word "larger" for pickle count is, as you point out, fraught with hazards.)



I remember when "no one" will need more than 640KB in their PC...


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 3, 2020)

briangus said:


> And to quote Roger @ Lens Rental on the EOSR tear down
> 
> Speaking of the Sony A7RIII, it’s taken a bit of internet trashing for its lack of weather sealing. Throw no stones from your glass house, oh Canon shooters. The Canon EOS R is just about the same; well-sealed buttons and dials, not much else. That means, I think, that it will be fine in a misty rain for a while, but don’t get it saturated and don’t set it somewhere wet.



On the other hand, Uncle Roger has also said that the latest 5-series of bodies has some serious sealing for weather/dust resistance. 

So the question is: "Is the R5 built like a 5-series camera or built like the EOS R?"

Canon has said it has the same level of weather/dust resistance as the 5D series.


----------



## briangus (Aug 3, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> On the other hand, Uncle Roger has also said that the latest 5-series of bodies has some serious sealing for weather/dust resistance.
> 
> So the question is: "Is the R5 built like a 5-series camera or built like the EOS R?"
> 
> Canon has said it has the same level of weather/dust resistance as the 5D series.



Looking forward to his tear down of the R5, should make for another interesting forum thread!!


----------



## usern4cr (Aug 3, 2020)

briangus said:


> Looking forward to his tear down of the R5, should make for another interesting forum thread!!


Has Roger said that he's going to tear down a R5? I'd be surprised if he does for quite a while since it's in such short supply. But I'd REALLY like to see it when he does!


----------



## briangus (Aug 3, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Has Roger said that he's going to tear down a R5? I'd be surprised if he does for quite a while since it's in such short supply. But I'd REALLY like to see it when he does!


Like the over heating it will happen eventually.
Lets hope he tells the boys what they want to hear or we'll have another Flies Undone scenario.


----------



## BakaBokeh (Aug 3, 2020)

Phillip Bloom is great.

Some notables about the A7SIII if you are considering it.


Animal AF does not work in Video, greatly disappointing the Cat Lover
It is touted as a being a new low light beast, but according to Phillip, it's the same as the A7SII, which was already great at low light
Compared to others, I thought his IBIS tests looked better in his Camera Conspiracies Segment Vlog test.
He also is the only one I'm aware of that demo'd the Post Stabilization Software using the Gyroscope data. Looks like it does well, but it means introducing more crop. You can dial in more stabilization but, it means more crop. The more aggressive the stabilization, the more extreme the crop.
He explained that in camera, the Noise Reduction actually made a lot of the night shots unusable. The work around is recording to an external recorder which can bypass the NR. So despite calling his video 24 Hours in Brighton, allegedly demo'ing the cameras capabilities in that 24 hour period, he admitted going back at a later date and using an Atomos to get the better night shots.
I'm sure I'm forgetting things, but the video is a movie after all. lol. Still a recommended watch because he makes it all worthwhile. Although it has its limitations, the A7SIII looks like a great camera for video.


----------

