# Why is UK ripped off on new releases including 650D?



## Rodknee (Jun 8, 2012)

Why are the prices for Canons newest releases including the 650D well above what the exchange rate would dictate?

There is no pattern/logic to it - I would guess there must be some greed involved. Does anybody know any valid reasons i.e. other than being ripped off?

The 650d with 18-135 STM lens is $1199 in US and £1019 in UK which is much higher than the exchange rate even allowing for adding VAT (should be less than nine hundred quid). And the 40mm Pancake STM lens is $199 and £229 in UK which means pounds are worth less than dollars. I can't think of a valid reason why the lens price has a larger multiplier than the body other than the obvious one of rip off or perhaps the UK is sent better quality lenses than America.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 8, 2012)

I believe that its the cost of living in the UK. I am from the USA, but when I visited several times in the past, everything was more expensive, so I assume things I could not see prices for like electrical power, heat, gasoline, and wages are higher.

That is going to drive up prices for a business, when they must pay more for everything. And, then, of course, there are the sales taxes (GST).


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## Rodknee (Jun 8, 2012)

The only sales tax is VAT at 20% and even allowing for that it should still be only £155 for the pancake lens but the advertised price is almost 50% higher than that.

I don't think business costs are that different to USA. And surely there are businesses that can run at lower costs than competitors yet prices seem pretty damned fixed which I assume is dictated to by Canon.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 8, 2012)

Relative strength of the yen vs. pound compared to yen vs. dollar, import duties, and trade subsidies are also factors that impact the differential pricing. It's also worth noting that in some global companies with country/regional divisions (which is how Canon is organized), the regional organizations (Canon USA vs. Canon UK) play a major role in determining prices, based on their divisional sales targets. Such targets are usually monetary rather than unit driven, and the USA is a much larger market - economies of scale operate even within companies, and Canon UK may need to set higher prices to meet monetary sales targets, compared to the Canon USA which will sell a larger number of units.

Of course, the title of your post suggests you're coming at this issue with a preconceived mindset...


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## Rodknee (Jun 8, 2012)

I am trying to understand why the cost is higher than could be expected purely from exchange rates and why the price of the pancake lens appears to be at a higher 'rate' than say the camera body. I know there was a lot of discussion in the posts regarding costs in Europe compared to other places when the 5Diii was announced. I also recall a number of posts where people were saying they could avoid certain taxes by purchasing from a supplier in another state.

It may be as you say that there is a higher markup by Canon. There seems to be a lot more 'parity' with prices between UK and USA for say the D3200 so one could assume that it is less likely that it is due to import duties and trade subsidies and more likely to be due to Canon.

Apologies for not putting too much thought in to the title of the post, I just wanted to ask if anybody knew how such prices were derived especially as the lens price did not appear to be congruent with the body price.


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## Obaidey (Jun 8, 2012)

In my opinion, there are 2 main reasons:
1- Consumer power is much stronger in USA
2- More competition in USA

Bottom line, Canon will charge the maximum they can get away with

There seems to be enough people in UK willing to buy anything at inflated prices, even after advent of internet
Just go to Argos and see how busy it still is

Just stand at an expensive UK fuel (gas) station and watch these clueless day dreaming drivers lining up to fill up their tanks, then complain about the £100 tankful cost, completely oblivious to the fact that there is a cheaper station right opposite

Prices displayed mean nothing to them
It is a known condition
And, they call it "dyscalculia"

I would not blame Canon.
Wouldn't you have done the same if you could get away with it? I know that I would


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## DB (Jun 8, 2012)

USA is a larger contiguous market, so certain economies of scale exist, especially with respect to marketing and distribution.

But main reason is, the same for all large corporations (e.g. just look at country discriminatory pricing by Auto or Pharma industries), they opt for the most profitable price that the local market will bear.


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## briansquibb (Jun 8, 2012)

DB said:


> USA is a larger contiguous market, so certain economies of scale exist, especially with respect to marketing and distribution.
> 
> But main reason is, the same for all large corporations (e.g. just look at country discriminatory pricing by Auto or Pharma industries), they opt for the most profitable price that the local market will bear.



20% VAT
Import taxes


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## kubsztal (Jun 8, 2012)

> Why are the prices for Canons newest releases including the 650D well above what the exchange rate would dictate?


Because we (european suckers) are willing to pay these insane prices.


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## thiemob (Jun 9, 2012)

I also noticed the prices in the UK are above normal conversion rates. In Germany we have 19% VAT opposed to 20% in the UK, so the difference is minor.
List price for the 650D body only is going to be 799€, which is about 650£ but will be 700£. That might be okay.

The strange point is, that the UK press release for both new lenses has prices in £ and €, too.
For the 40mm it says 229£ / 269€ (incl. VAT), the German press release says 239€ (incl. MwST. (= VAT)).
Same goes for the 18-135:
UK: 479£ / 569€ while for Germany it is 499€, again including all taxes in all prices.

This seams quite strange and may change in the next weeks until availability. An about 15% higher price for all new products just seems completely unreasonable.

If it does not change, you could always order from Germany or France, since Canon offers warranty EU-wide.


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## DB (Jun 9, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> DB said:
> 
> 
> > USA is a larger contiguous market, so certain economies of scale exist, especially with respect to marketing and distribution.
> ...



Brian, still doesn't explain the 25-30% price difference between Britain & Ireland, despite only a 2% VAT differential!

I buy all my camera gear in the UK - got my 7D from Digigood for £900 (Harvey Norman wanted €1,599), a fortnight ago I purchased a Manfrotto 055XPROB from Amazon.co.uk for £104.75 incl. free Super Saver Delivery + MBAG80PN for £48, the best prices in Dublin were Bermingham Cameras €159 for same tripod legs and Conns Cameras €89 for padded tripod bag which I paid €60 for in the UK. Same for lenses, filters, audio recorders and so on. 1 EUR = 0.81 GBP and not 65 pence 

As a general rule of thumb, the smaller the country, the higher the price (just look at what the Scandinavians have to fork out)


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## briansquibb (Jun 9, 2012)

DB said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > DB said:
> ...



Import tax is higher


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## Rodknee (Jun 9, 2012)

I assume 'import taxes' are the same level for lenses as cameras when they are both coming from the same country so why is the relative differential between UK and USA prices different for lenses compared to cameras?


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## wickidwombat (Jun 12, 2012)

i've actually bought some stuff from the UK off ebay because its still cheaper than it is here in australia
no wonder the grey import market from hong kong thrives here


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 12, 2012)

Rodknee said:


> I assume 'import taxes' are the same level for lenses as cameras when they are both coming from the same country...



I would not necessarily assume that. Customs and trade negotiations are complex and specific. For example, a camera usually (in terms of all cameras sold) comes with a lens, whereas a lens does not come with a camera. So, a lens may be considered an 'electronics _accessory_' under some terms, compared to a camera, meaning separate tariffs may apply. I have no idea if that's actually the case, but it's certainly a possiblity.


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## briansquibb (Jun 12, 2012)

In the UK H-K is a popular grey source, but increasingly the US is becoming that way for us


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## Rodknee (Jun 16, 2012)

Looking at the Pentax K-30 body the price in UK is £600 and in US it is $850, pretty much a straight exchange rate conversion. So the Canon price difference either side of the pond has bugger all to do with import taxes, VAT, exchange rates, higher cost of living, costs of running a business and all other similar reasons. It just leaves the explanation that Canon ARE ripping UK customers off on prices.


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## distant.star (Jun 17, 2012)

.

I think it's simply retribution for that old "British Empire" thing.

Once the U.S. Evil Empire fades away, they'll be sticking it to us too!


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## briansquibb (Jun 17, 2012)

distant.star said:


> .
> 
> I think it's simply retribution for that old "British Empire" thing.
> 
> Once the U.S. Evil Empire fades away, they'll be sticking it to us too!



Its over 60 years since we had an Empire and it I remember correctly Japan was never in it.


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## rpt (Jun 18, 2012)

My experience of the pricing of stuff at I would have bought in the UK when I was over on business is that the numerical value of the price there is equal to the numerical numerical value of the price in the US. They just sell in GBP!!! I never get that! Now I find prices in India are at times cheaper than in the US! My 5D3 was at least $100 cheaper and that included tax in India...


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## scotty512 (Aug 1, 2012)

isnt simply import duty and VAT we live in a highly taxed and expensive to live in country, which does have some benefits and sadly so downsides - this is one

in the same way that you purchase from USA or HK if customs realise what it is then you will pay excess duty and VAT - this is whether you order online or purchase whilst on holiday

for example, I was married in New Zealand and around a month later the photography posted the album we requested, you would have thought this would be a simple process - but no custom and excise required me to pay £80 in duty&tax to release my wedding album as they classed this as importing work


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## briansquibb (Aug 1, 2012)

rpt said:


> My experience of the pricing of stuff at I would have bought in the UK when I was over on business is that the numerical value of the price there is equal to the numerical numerical value of the price in the US. They just sell in GBP!!! I never get that! Now I find prices in India are at times cheaper than in the US! My 5D3 was at least $100 cheaper and that included tax in India...



5DIII is about £2700 - I guess that has changed then ....


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## rpt (Aug 1, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> rpt said:
> 
> 
> > My experience of the pricing of stuff at I would have bought in the UK when I was over on business is that the numerical value of the price there is equal to the numerical numerical value of the price in the US. They just sell in GBP!!! I never get that! Now I find prices in India are at times cheaper than in the US! My 5D3 was at least $100 cheaper and that included tax in India...
> ...


Wow! Things are improving? Amazon.co.uk even lists a "used" 5D3 for £999!
Wonder what state that one is in...


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## Alumina (Aug 8, 2012)

kubsztal said:


> > Why are the prices for Canons newest releases including the 650D well above what the exchange rate would dictate?
> 
> 
> Because we (european suckers) are willing to pay these insane prices.



I don't.. well half  I live in the Netherlands but I have an American Rebel T3i (instead of an European EOS 600D) got the kit with the 18-55mm and 55-250mm and there was a 200euro price difference with the dutch retail sellers. (that's $250 now, back then $280 ) That's a ridiculous amount for the exact same products. 

Then again not everyone has the opportunity to just go to america to buy a camera .. just wanting to tell you I'm not crazy enough to pay for differences like that. (bought a 50mm f/1.8 here in Holland, but only after checking the American price.. was almost the same) 

But the bottom line is, I feel ripped off because of the price difference. I understand a small difference because of importing (although the USA imports them too ) but amounts that are coming close to 1/4th of the price? ehm no. Just my 2 cents on the topic.


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## tapanit (Aug 8, 2012)

Rodknee said:


> I assume 'import taxes' are the same level for lenses as cameras when they are both coming from the same country


No - at least in Finland (and I'm pretty sure it's EU-wide) lenses have an import duty of 6.5% or so, whereas camera bodies have none (of course VAT applies for both, and it varies from country to country). That doesn't explain all of the difference, though.


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## tapanit (Aug 8, 2012)

Alumina said:


> Then again not everyone has the opportunity to just go to america to buy a camera ..


I frequently buy cameras from USA via mail order, when it's significantly cheaper than buying locally (even after shipping costs and taxes). That's not always the case, though, sometimes there's no difference or local prices can even be cheaper.


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## tomscott (Aug 8, 2012)

Put it this way a 5D MKIII is £2799 body only in the UK.

That newest deal from adorama is $4299 which includes the grip worth £300 and the 24-105mm F4 IS worth £950

$4299 converted to £ is £2749!!!!!!!!

Thats over £1200 worth of extra stuff you get for the same price body only in the UK. Its just ridiculous.

Buying mine in NYC the saving will pay for a weeks trip its ludicrous.


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## Rodknee (Aug 8, 2012)

If it were just taxes/import dties then surely that would be the same for Nikon and canon, however, comparing UK and USA prices for these two companies they are incongruous so there is some other pricing factor in there.


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## Hesbehindyou (Aug 11, 2012)

*No story here or have I got my maths wrong?*

I think it's exchange rates. Canon deals in Yen, not dollars, so it's yen to pounds and yen to dollars that we have to look at.

5D mark III
B&H Photo (US) $3,464
Jessops (UK) £2794 minus 20% VAT = £2235

Tax-free price converted to Yen as of 12th August 2012
B&H Photo (US) 271,048 Yen
Jessops (UK) 274,093 Yen

UK premium is 3045 Yen, or £24.


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## DB (Aug 11, 2012)

Differential product pricing geographically has precious little to to with bi-lateral exchange rates - just look at the Economist Big Mac Index - all prices converted to US Dollars:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/01/daily-chart-3

These consumer prices are for an identical (homogeneous) product, sure local sales taxes account for some of the price differences, but not more than 15% to 20%. The rest is predatory pricing. All multinationals do it from GM, Ford, Toyota to Glaxo-Smithkline, Pfizer and so on. 

You can charge a lot more for a Big Mac in the land of Cuckoo Clocks & Chocolate than you can in a country where couples have 11, 12 or 13 children to ensure a roof over their head and something to eat in their old age.

Here's an example of a huge rip-off: in 2005 I was in Fort Myers, FL and test drove a 2nd gen Toyota Prius with a buddy of mine who'd just bought a home in Cape Coral (so he needed a car). The car dealer wanted $16,000 for the Prius, but said to my friend that if he paid cash the same day; he could have it for $14,500 - for a new car. About 2 weeks later, back in Ireland, a family friend visited driving guess what? a brand new Toyota Prius, having paid €36,000 for it (and that was including the lower vehicle tax cos' it was a Hybrid). At the time that was about US$50,000. If you accept the exchange rate argument then it would have cost just €10,000!

How do you get a 300% price differential in a product that is sold all over the world? Because manufacturers will say, well how much does X cost or what is the price of Y, then they adjust their pricing policy accordingly. It is the way of the world unfortunately.

The only way to stop Canon or others doing this, is to stop buying in one country and travel to (or buy online) cheaper countries and purchase there.


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## AdamJ (Aug 12, 2012)

*Re: No story here or have I got my maths wrong?*



Hesbehindyou said:


> I think it's exchange rates. Canon deals in Yen, not dollars, so it's yen to pounds and yen to dollars that we have to look at.
> 
> 5D mark III
> B&H Photo (US) $3,464
> ...



The strength of the yen doesn't affect any dollar / pound conversion. If it did, the currency markets would have made me the world's richest man by now. :

Also, removing 20% VAT from £2,794 equals £2,328.33, not £2,235.


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## Hesbehindyou (Aug 12, 2012)

*Re: No story here or have I got my maths wrong?*



AdamJ said:


> Hesbehindyou said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's exchange rates. Canon deals in Yen, not dollars, so it's yen to pounds and yen to dollars that we have to look at.
> ...



That's why I converted them both to Yen. It's why I didn't do a dollar pound conversion as others had and why I said "_Canon deals in Yen, not dollars, so it's yen to pounds and yen to dollars that we have to look at_."



> Also, removing 20% VAT from £2,794 equals £2,328.33, not £2,235.



Not on my calculator. 2794 x 0.8 = 2235.20.


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## AdamJ (Aug 12, 2012)

I'll put it another way. The sterling price difference between B&H and Jessops is the same whether you do a direct dollar / pound conversion or whether you convert both prices to yen first. It makes no difference.

To remove VAT, you should divide by 1.2, not multiply by 0.8.


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## birtembuk (Aug 12, 2012)

It's not Canon specially. It's always been like that between US and Europe. The difference basically boils down to business ease and efficiency. First, in the US, sales volumes are much higher. Secondly, the customers are supposed to know the product. They are either enticed by advertisement/marketing or they read reviews from every source they found. They know what they want. So, they go to the shop, tend the CC, grab the box and off they go. Financial and selling cost are kept at minimum. Money spins. In contrast, Europeans will hesitate, doubt, linger, procrastinate before making a decision. They need salespeople to advise, discuss, reassure, convince. And - if they didn't go to another shop - they'll come another week and get the box opened, the content dissected and commented. Keeping a dead stock for rare and evasive customers and employing an army of salespeople carries a high price. Some may say that Europeans make more weighted up purchasing decisions. There's a price to pay for that. Well, you can still order by courier from Amazon US or B&H and pay the taxes on delivery.


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## AdamJ (Aug 12, 2012)

birtembuk said:


> It's not Canon specially. It's always been like that between US and Europe. The difference basically boils down to business ease and efficiency. First, in the US, sales volumes are much higher. Secondly, the customers are supposed to know the product. They are either enticed by advertisement/marketing or they read reviews from every source they found. They know what they want. So, they go to the shop, tend the CC, grab the box and off they go. Financial and selling cost are kept at minimum. Money spins. In contrast, Europeans will hesitate, doubt, linger, procrastinate before making a decision. They need salespeople to advise, discuss, reassure, convince. And - if they didn't go to another shop - they'll come another week and get the box opened, the content dissected and commented. Keeping a dead stock for rare and evasive customers and employing an army of salespeople carries a high price. Some may say that Europeans make more weighted up purchasing decisions. There's a price to pay for that. Well, you can still order by courier from Amazon US or B&H and pay the taxes on delivery.



;D ;D ;D That is a hilariously opinionated view of European vs US buying habits! ;D ;D ;D


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## DB (Aug 12, 2012)

birtembuk said:


> It's not Canon specially. It's always been like that between US and Europe. The difference basically boils down to business ease and efficiency. First, in the US, sales volumes are much higher. Secondly, the customers are supposed to know the product. They are either enticed by advertisement/marketing or they read reviews from every source they found. They know what they want. So, they go to the shop, tend the CC, grab the box and off they go. Financial and selling cost are kept at minimum. Money spins. In contrast, Europeans will hesitate, doubt, linger, procrastinate before making a decision. They need salespeople to advise, discuss, reassure, convince. And - if they didn't go to another shop - they'll come another week and get the box opened, the content dissected and commented. Keeping a dead stock for rare and evasive customers and employing an army of salespeople carries a high price. Some may say that Europeans make more weighted up purchasing decisions. There's a price to pay for that. Well, you can still order by courier from Amazon US or B&H and pay the taxes on delivery.



+1 would agree with everything you say, having lived in US (college in Pennsylvania & worked in New York) for years, another 12 years in London (UK) and another 5 years in continental Europe, I would just add that stores in Europe tend to hold fewer brands - usually just Canon/Nikon (few camera stores in my country sell Sony, Pentax or Samsung) and the sticker price is THE PRICE -> ask for a discount or try to haggle and you'll be asked to leave - it's called a cultural difference. Plus the nature of wholesaling and the increased number of authorized distributors in European countries (especially the smaller ones such as island nations) means more middlemen, each with a big percentage markup (from national distributors to regional, provincial and even by county). Therefore because of the higher price, Europeans will tend to shop around more, visit the store more than once before deciding to make a purchase.


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## DB (Aug 12, 2012)

AdamJ said:


> birtembuk said:
> 
> 
> > It's not Canon specially. It's always been like that between US and Europe. The difference basically boils down to business ease and efficiency. First, in the US, sales volumes are much higher. Secondly, the customers are supposed to know the product. They are either enticed by advertisement/marketing or they read reviews from every source they found. They know what they want. So, they go to the shop, tend the CC, grab the box and off they go. Financial and selling cost are kept at minimum. Money spins. In contrast, Europeans will hesitate, doubt, linger, procrastinate before making a decision. They need salespeople to advise, discuss, reassure, convince. And - if they didn't go to another shop - they'll come another week and get the box opened, the content dissected and commented. Keeping a dead stock for rare and evasive customers and employing an army of salespeople carries a high price. Some may say that Europeans make more weighted up purchasing decisions. There's a price to pay for that. Well, you can still order by courier from Amazon US or B&H and pay the taxes on delivery.
> ...



What is funny is your response. Empirical data exists for both the number of camera stores geographically and for the sales breakdown by region (US, Europe, Australia, Asia etc.), so it is quite easy to show that higher sales volumes DO exist in the USA. Now add in banking data about credit card figures and you'll see that Americans have a much greater propensity to charge camera gear to their credit card -> economists' refer to this as the "Wanting of Waiting" or in simple English you can have it now for no money down. Having lived overseas for 2 decades, I've observed first hand that buying habits are totally different between Europe and the US - as different as Chalk n' Cheese. I lived in Spain for 5 years and you cannot use a credit card in many stores, not without your Passport or National ID card, it is a criminal offence to bounce a cheque (check) with a mandatory 1-year prison sentence, so 44 million people primarily use CASH (also partly explains the higher jobless rate and the impact of lower availability of credit on economic growth). In the USA, consumption (individuals + private businesses expenditure on 'Goods & Services') is 70% of the economy (GDP), in most European countries it is between 40% to 50%. Americans spend more, every day of the week whether they have cash or not (doesn't matter they can charge it). That equates to one heck of a difference between US and European buying habits.


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## AdamJ (Aug 12, 2012)

DB said:


> AdamJ said:
> 
> 
> > birtembuk said:
> ...



So come on, you hesitant, doubtful, lingering, procrastinating Europeans, you heard it. Be more decisive and forthright like our American friends and you too can have great prices! ;D


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## chadders (Aug 12, 2012)

AdamJ said:


> DB said:
> 
> 
> > AdamJ said:
> ...




Perhaps we wouldn't hesitate, doubt, linger or procrastinate if we were getting the same prices as our more carefree spending American cousins.


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## DB (Aug 12, 2012)

@ AdamJ 
CR has just posted *Canon USA August Rebates* - can you please show us the Canon Europe August Rebates - eh rhetorical question that one...they don't exist cos' Americans are spoilt, even when they don't take out their credit cards, further inducements are required to get them to spend. Enjoy your cheaper prices Stateside, long may they last, at least as long as a 20 ounce soda - if Mike Bloomberg gets his way - you can continue to enjoy lower prices whilst you sip your smaller sodas (and hopefully shrinking waistlines too).


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## AdamJ (Aug 12, 2012)

DB, I'm not sure what point you're inviting me to make now but anyway, I was only trying to say that bitembek noted some views about European buyers that were a little sweeping in their generalisation, to the extent of being very amusing to me (as a European).


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