# Lots of Talk, Very Little Solid Information About Canon's Next Cameras



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 27, 2018)

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Recently we’ve <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/new-canon-camera-bodies-appear-for-certification/">become aware of 6 different unreleased Canon ILC camera bodies</a> that have come up for various types of certification. The only camera out of the lot that we’re pretty sure is coming this year, is an EOS M5 Mark II ahead of Photokina in September. Beyond that, everything is currently a guess.</p>
<p>There are <a href="https://www.*********.com/first-specification-suggestions-for-upcoming-canon-cameras-eos-7d-mark-ii-eos-80d-mark-ii-eos-m5-mark-ii/">reports that two of the DSLRs mentioned will be the EOS 80D and EOS 7D Mark II</a> successors, both of which are very popular models in the lineup. Unfortunately, we have been unable to confirm that this is the case. Good sources have said repeatedly to me that there would not be a major DSLR release in 2018 and that 2019 is still an unknown.</p>
<p>Now, these certifications can happen many months in advance of an actual announcement, so it’s possible we’re looking a Q1 2019 camera bodies. Which, if true, there’s no chance of having any real specifications to report beyond guesses and logical next steps in the EOS xxD and EOS 7D line. If either of them is coming in 2018, Canon is doing a stellar job of keeping the lid on things.</p>
<p>We’ll obviously provide an update on these camera models as soon as we’re able to.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## sanj (Jun 27, 2018)

What about battery indicators?


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## Mikehit (Jun 27, 2018)

sanj said:


> What about battery indicators?



That would be an interesting option - buy a battery meter with a lens attached.


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## Chaitanya (Jun 27, 2018)

More interested to know what lenses are coming out? More precisely a 180mm or 50/60mm FF macros. Also interested to see what Sigma and Tamron bring to Photokina in terms of macros.


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## transpo1 (Jun 27, 2018)

Good news for Canon lovers that there are some potentially unpredictable releases out there, especially with regard to MILC cameras. 

Canon is now actually starting to disrupt their own product line and shake things up a bit, as recent executives have discussed.


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## Etienne (Jun 27, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Good news for Canon lovers that there are some potentially unpredictable releases out there, especially with regard to MILC cameras.
> 
> Canon is now actually starting to disrupt their own product line and shake things up a bit, as recent executives have discussed.



Canon hasn't started to disrupt anything yet, it's just rumors. I'll believe it when I see an actual product with an actual review.


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## transpo1 (Jun 27, 2018)

Etienne said:


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I *completely* agree with you but I'm trying to be positive here that they've seen the light- pun intended


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## SV (Jun 27, 2018)

Hard to find good leakers these days...


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## kalieaire (Jun 27, 2018)

I'm pretty sure with a decade of disappointments in the DSLR industry, they've forgotten how to disrupt.

October 2005 the Canon 5D Mark I came out.
September 2008 the Canon 5D Mark II Came out with a larger screen and video shooting capability that shot 30fps, not 24p (23.997 fps) and not 30p (29.997fps).

I would be really surprised if Canon came out with something amazing. I still use Canon but I also own Sony.

Canons are great for using on weddings that make good money and I can get Canon to turn a repair around in under a week. Their service is hands down second to none.

Sony is better as far as flexibility in creative options imo.


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## kalieaire (Jun 27, 2018)

transpo1 said:


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Don't fret, it's definitely OK to be punny on hump day! ;D


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## ahsanford (Jun 27, 2018)

Curious: what has been the typical lead time between a code-named body dropping for certification vs. a public reveal? 3 months? 6 months? Longer?

- A


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## Mikehit (Jun 27, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Good news for Canon lovers that there are some potentially unpredictable releases out there, especially with regard to MILC cameras.
> 
> Canon is now actually starting to disrupt their own product line and shake things up a bit, as recent executives have discussed.



So a company no longer produces new products, they 'disrupt' their own product lines? It seems that being 'disruptive' has become a mark of success....

People may point to Canon and draw analogies with Kodak and Nokia (who actually remained very successful, just not in their original high profile products) but in business, the disruptor is often the first one to go out of business when they realise they cannot maintain their advantage, become ossified in being disruptive for the sake of it and don't know how to develop what they have got.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2018)

kalieaire said:


> I'm pretty sure with a decade of disappointments in the DSLR industry, they've forgotten how to disrupt.



Or, with a decade and a half of market dominance in the DSLR industry, they’ve seen no need to disrupt. Not necessarily a good thing for us as consumers, but that’s life.


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## rrcphoto (Jun 27, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Good news for Canon lovers that there are some potentially unpredictable releases out there, especially with regard to MILC cameras.
> 
> Canon is now actually starting to disrupt their own product line and shake things up a bit, as recent executives have discussed.



no they haven't.

even if they add more mirrorless that's not going to disrupt anything.


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## transpo1 (Jun 27, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> transpo1 said:
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> > Good news for Canon lovers that there are some potentially unpredictable releases out there, especially with regard to MILC cameras.
> ...



A company produces new products that disrupt their own product lines before competitors do. This has been talked about in tech / business circles for years. An old school example is that Apple’s iPod mini was selling well under Steve Jobs. But that didn’t stop them with coming out with a new product, the iPod Nano, which was a much smaller version with newer tech. It killed iPod mini sales eventually but became a much more successful product in the long run. Apple came out with a smaller, more advanced version of the iPod before someone else did, hence disrupting themselves.


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## rrcphoto (Jun 27, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Curious: what has been the typical lead time between a code-named body dropping for certification vs. a public reveal? 3 months? 6 months? Longer?
> 
> - A



well as food for thought, the 6D Mark II certifications were first leaked the December prior to release, and it didn't come out until June.


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## KirkD (Jun 27, 2018)

If a new 7D has higher DR, 4k and excellent auto focus in video mode, I'll probably be buying. Just talked with a friend of mine who runs a video studio that employs about 12 full time staff. They used to do all their videoing with Canon, but he told me they've completely abandoned Canon and are now full into Sony. He used the world "dinosaur" to describe Canon's recent track record. I'm still hanging in there (although I do use Sony for videoing) at least until year-end, to see what Canon comes up with. I've got a lot invested in Canon glass and am really dragging my feet in going over to Sony, hoping Canon takes "future proofing" seriously.


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## transpo1 (Jun 27, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> transpo1 said:
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> > Good news for Canon lovers that there are some potentially unpredictable releases out there, especially with regard to MILC cameras.
> ...



No, they haven’t yet. But you are otherwise incorrect- an MILC with advanced features will disrupt their DSLR product line.


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## rrcphoto (Jun 27, 2018)

transpo1 said:


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not really, it will be sold side by side and simply co exist with their other product lines.

Canon has shown a remarkable ability to add product lines without disrupting other lines. People tend to overthink both the importance of video and the importance of mirrorless.

The reason mirrorless is improving isn't because of mirrorless is because they are mature camera companies now (Fuji, Sony,etc) with mature product lines.

And if anything they have been disrupting Nikon, not Canon.


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## ahsanford (Jun 27, 2018)

KirkD said:


> If a new 7D has higher DR, 4k and excellent auto focus in video mode, I'll probably be buying.



For DR, I'd keep your feet on the ground. You'll probably see a bump like this:

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%207D%20Mark%20II,Canon%20EOS%2080D

That is to say, a nice bump in low ISO but not a game changing explosion of latitude. This is what we've seen with the various models that got the on-chip ADC setup. 

But you never know. The 7D line tends to prioritize higher ISO performance than, say, some enthusiast landscaping rig.

4K of some sort + DPAF for _that_ price point seems a bit of a gimme by the time we see it (late 2019 by projections). Whether the 4K itself is good enough for you will depend on the fine print.

- A


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## Mikehit (Jun 27, 2018)

transpo1 said:


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Instead of using meaningless bullshit words like 'disrupt' why nut use real English and talk about 'product development'? Using words like 'disrupting' is not because it has a genuine use but is done to make themselves sound hip to the younger generation, making them sound like they are breaking away from the old fuddy-duddies who run real companies. Apple was able to carry this myth for years, had people talking about how they were breaking the MS hegemony when in fact they were creating systems that forced you to work they way they wanted you to work, while salting away billions of dollars in overseas tax havens. 

I remember one management guru who wrote that when a company talks about 'setting a new paradigm' then run the other way because chances are they do not know what they are doing. Words like 'disruptive' is in the same vein.


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## transpo1 (Jun 27, 2018)

Mikehit said:


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Yes, I’m sure the entire tech and business industries are wrong and you’re right. Of course. 

It wasn’t a myth with Apple, by the way- they really did it over and over again. Which is why they have a 100 billion in the bank.


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## rrcphoto (Jun 27, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Yes, I’m sure the entire tech and business industries are wrong and you’re right. Of course.
> 
> It wasn’t a myth with Apple, by the way- they really did it over and over again. Which is why they have a 100 billion in the bank.



Apple found exploitable markets with innovative at the time features, and also created this little thing called the iTunes.
iTunes gives Apple a remarkable amount of money.
how you can think that this is similar to the camera industry is anyone's guess.

Canon adding more mirrorless isn't much of a disruption or even change in their mode of operation over the past 4+ years.

They have continually added and augmented their lines and increased the depth of their mirrorless lineup to date, pretty consistently.

It only stands to reason that they continue to do so.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jun 27, 2018)

kalieaire said:


> Sony is better as far as flexibility in creative options imo.



So no better as a camera, but with more gimmicks?


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## 9VIII (Jun 27, 2018)

kalieaire said:


> I'm pretty sure with a decade of disappointments in the DSLR industry, they've forgotten how to disrupt.
> ...



The 5D3 was still disruptive, Canon was the first to put their best AF chip in a second camera line.

Then the 7D2 did effectively the same for crop shooting and it took Nikon another two years to make a competing product (actually it should really be stated as "Nikon took 7 years to come up with anything to compete with the original 7D").
Oh, and the A6500 is still just an overpriced amateur body because it only has one memory card slot. Fuji is actually doing more to appeal to professional crop shooters.
The Sony A7III may seem to be Sony's answer to everything, but it's still overpriced for the category, and its full frame sensor doesn't do anyone any good if you're just going to be cropping everything (most cases of sports or action). So anyone getting an A7III for those applications is just paying 50% more for worse image quality (and worse lens selection, and bad weather sealing, and the firmware will probably crash a few times).
Also Canon's DPAF is doing very well, if not dominating the Vlogging market. Nothing competes with the out of the box performance of DPAF.

What really upsets me is that Nikon REMOVED the second card slot from their 7000 series. Good job driving customers away Nikon.

As others have said, Canon has done so much disruption in the last decade that the competition just hasn't caught up yet.


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## robotfist (Jun 27, 2018)

I am heavily invested in Canon lenses, their DSLRs and their cinema line. I’ve stayed tried and true for years. It’s been hard these past 3 years watching Sony eclipse them with every release. I envy the sharpness, the latitude, the stabilization, the light sensitivity and the lighter form factors of the Sony’s. But I’ve stayed with Canon, patiently waiting for them to catch up, partly because I dig their colors and menus over Sony, but mostly because I don’t want to deal with offloading all this gear. Well, this year is a make it or break it year for me. I won’t wait for Canon any longer. I’ll be selling everything come November and switching to Sony if they don’t step up their game. They need some winners in the mirrorless line. They need a better middle ground camera in their cinema line that can shoot slow motion. Honestly, they need winners on all fronts. They need to be inventive and setting the pace, not following in the wake of their competitors. Time is up. Canon is in third place. Albough their market share or sales may state otherwise, it is my opinion that they are just riding on people like me that are heavily invested in their ecosystem and don’t want to switch. Well that patience doesn’t last forever. Get your ass in gear Canon! Your elderly executives are stuck in their ways and their decisions are slowly choking the company. Innovate and set the trend or go sit in the corner with Kodak, Nokia and Sears.


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## rrcphoto (Jun 27, 2018)

kalieaire said:


> I'm pretty sure with a decade of disappointments in the DSLR industry, they've forgotten how to disrupt.



Canon has steadily increased it's product lines and increased it's overall share of the entire camera market.

Clearly they know what they are doing.


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## kkamena (Jun 27, 2018)

Can we ban the use of disruptive, disruption and disrupt on this board from now on. The terms are cliché, overused and misused. They have no real meaning any more.

Sony is not disrupting anything, mirrorless is not disrupting anything, and Canon is not disrupting anything. Any augment that there is a disruption in the camera industry is wrong. The last disruption was when some one put a camera on a cellphone. Just because Technology changes or evolves does not make it a disruption. 

now I have used a term I hate 10 times.


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## dak723 (Jun 27, 2018)

robotfist said:


> I am heavily invested in Canon lenses, their DSLRs and their cinema line. I’ve stayed tried and true for years. It’s been hard these past 3 years watching Sony eclipse them with every release. I envy the sharpness, the latitude, the stabilization, the light sensitivity and the lighter form factors of the Sony’s. But I’ve stayed with Canon, patiently waiting for them to catch up, partly because I dig their colors and menus over Sony, but mostly because I don’t want to deal with offloading all this gear. Well, this year is a make it or break it year for me. I won’t wait for Canon any longer. I’ll be selling everything come November and switching to Sony if they don’t step up their game. They need some winners in the mirrorless line. They need a better middle ground camera in their cinema line that can shoot slow motion. Honestly, they need winners on all fronts. They need to be inventive and setting the pace, not following in the wake of their competitors. Time is up. Canon is in third place. Albough their market share or sales may state otherwise, it is my opinion that they are just riding on people like me that are heavily invested in their ecosystem and don’t want to switch. Well that patience doesn’t last forever. Get your ass in gear Canon! Your elderly executives are stuck in their ways and their decisions are slowly choking the company. Innovate and set the trend or go sit in the corner with Kodak, Nokia and Sears.



You do understand that this site has no affiliation with Canon. If you want to actually contact Canon with your message, this is not the place. If you just want to whine and complain...then this, alas, is the place.

Just curious if you have actually tried the Sonys that you believe are so much better. If you have tried them, well, then I understand your situation. If you are commenting based on spec sheets, then I suggest you rent a Sony and see if how it goes. Many of us have tried the Sonys and find them wanting. I wouldn't trade a Canon for a Sony at this point, but who knows what the future holds.


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## kalieaire (Jun 27, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> kalieaire said:
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> ...



Yeah, but to that I remember when Minolta was late to the DSLR game when they came out w/ the Maxxum. Previously they were top dog with the first production 35mm AF system w/ the Maxxum 7000 in 1985. They got complacent and they lost market dominance to both Canon and Nikon.

Canon edged out Nikon in the professional market. And now Sony is beginning to edge Canon out. 

If Sony decides to throw their enterprise backing into professional support services, they could take the pole position.

Canon still has their printer and Fab businesses to fall back on, but Nikon might run the risk of being actually put out of business.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2018)

kalieaire said:


> Canon edged out Nikon in the professional market. And now *Sony is beginning to edge Canon out.*



Do you have even a shred of evidence to support that claim?


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## Mikehit (Jun 27, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> kalieaire said:
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> ...



But..but.. three youtubers switched. Canon are *******.


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## rrcphoto (Jun 27, 2018)

kalieaire said:


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there's hyperbole and then there is reality.

Minolta was found guilty of infringing on a honeywell patent and was ordered to pay 127 million in damages they never really recovered from that.

by that time canon was firmly out with the EF lineup and more importantly USM which effectively killed everyone not named Canon as far as the market.

USM was such a vast superior technology to motors in lenses (or camera bodies as was the case with Nikon) and spelled the end to Minolta making a recovery.

Complacency had zero to do with it, but talk some more.. it's highly amusing.


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## NeverPlayMonopoly (Jun 27, 2018)

ITT: infighting


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## Durf (Jun 27, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


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Minolta recovered, they just appear restructured and have a different brand badge.....



> Sony entered the market for digital single-lens reflex cameras in 2006 when it acquired the camera business of Konica Minolta. Sony rebranded the company's line of cameras as its Alpha line.


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## rrcphoto (Jun 27, 2018)

Durf said:


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Sony holds a 19% by value marketshare which makes their by unit marketshare lower than that.

They haven't recovered into being anything other than 3rd ranked where they were in the 90's after they fell off the bandwagon.


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## scyrene (Jun 27, 2018)

Threads like this make me consider leaving this forum. Next to no information, and ANOTHER barrage of meaningless, pointless, exaggerated complaining, 'I know ten guys who've swapped to Sony', 'I won't but another Canon unless they include XY and Z', and very wrong comparisons with Kodak and Nokia (though Sears is a new one - I thought Blackberry was the third of the 'failure trinity'). I guess Mr CR wants clicks though, and clicks from trolls are worth as much as anyone's :


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## Adelino (Jun 27, 2018)

robotfist said:


> I am heavily invested in Canon lenses, their DSLRs and their cinema line. I’ve stayed tried and true for years. It’s been hard these past 3 years watching Sony eclipse them with every release. I envy the sharpness, the latitude, the stabilization, the light sensitivity and the lighter form factors of the Sony’s. But I’ve stayed with Canon, patiently waiting for them to catch up, partly because I dig their colors and menus over Sony, but mostly because I don’t want to deal with offloading all this gear. Well, this year is a make it or break it year for me. I won’t wait for Canon any longer. I’ll be selling everything come November and switching to Sony if they don’t step up their game. They need some winners in the mirrorless line. They need a better middle ground camera in their cinema line that can shoot slow motion. Honestly, they need winners on all fronts. They need to be inventive and setting the pace, not following in the wake of their competitors. Time is up. Canon is in third place. Albough their market share or sales may state otherwise, it is my opinion that they are just riding on people like me that are heavily invested in their ecosystem and don’t want to switch. Well that patience doesn’t last forever. Get your ass in gear Canon! Your elderly executives are stuck in their ways and their decisions are slowly choking the company. Innovate and set the trend or go sit in the corner with Kodak, Nokia and Sears.


Why does everyone include Nokia as if they are a defunct (or failing)company?  they had 22 BILLION Euros in revenue last year.


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## The Fat Fish (Jun 27, 2018)

At this stage I’ll be happy with an underwhelming release. It would at least be better than the outright dissapointment of the 6DII and M50. I really hate waiting to see if Canon can do it. I’d love to see a roadmap now instead of waiting even more time for potentially more dissapointment.


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## unfocused (Jun 27, 2018)

kkamena said:


> Can we ban the use of disruptive, disruption and disrupt on this board from now on. The terms are cliché, overused and misused. They have no real meaning any more.
> 
> Sony is not disrupting anything, mirrorless is not disrupting anything, and Canon is not disrupting anything. Any augment that there is a disruption in the camera industry is wrong. The last disruption was when some one put a camera on a cellphone. Just because Technology changes or evolves does not make it a disruption.
> 
> now I have used a term I hate 10 times.



But that would disrupt all the idiots who want to sound like they know what they are talking about and we would not want to disrupt the Canon Rumors Forum.


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## KirkD (Jun 27, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> kalieaire said:
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> > Canon edged out Nikon in the professional market. And now *Sony is beginning to edge Canon out.*
> ...


Four shreds of evidence: First, a local video studio that has around 12 full time staff, and was once completely Canon DSLR for shooting their videos, has completely abandoned Canon for Sony as of this year. In talking with their director, all the other pro studios he knows of are going over to Sony this year. Second, I know of three pro photographers who dumped Canon this year in favour of Sony. Third, check out sales of the new Sony A7III, which have been way more than Sony ever anticipated. Thus far, they have not been able to keep up with orders (check out B&H for example). The big loser on this one will be the Canon 6D II. Fourth, I'm trying to hang in here with my investment in Canon glass, but for videos, I've already started using a Sony a6500 for 4K shooting. Yes, these are just "shreds", but fifth, check out the third quarter sales for Canon 6D's vs Sony A7III and I expect you will see a sharp downturn in Canon DSLR sales once the Sony A7III buying frenzy has really made its mark. There is only one thing keeping me in the Canon fold right now, and that is the money I've sunk into Canon glass.


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## HarryFilm (Jun 27, 2018)

Mikehit said:


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YOU"RE RIGHT !!!!! Canon is Truly ******* !!!!

I unfortunately get to help it become even MORE ******* because THIS is what is coming out from a certain camera manufacturer which at this point shall remain nameless...BUT NOW...has my codec in it's products:

I ENSURED VIA AN IRON-CLAD CONTRACT, THE FOLLOWING ITEMS HAVE BEEN SET to come to market! 

1) A Very Large Sensor 65mm Medium Format 
COMBINED Stills and Video Camera is coming out:

a) It has 8192 by 6144 pixels at a 4:3 aspect ratio with recording
at multiple user-selectable common cinema and video aspect ratios.
It supports multiple anamorphic modes and lenses.

b) It has 16-bits per colour channel with RGB + Depth Map Channel (64-bits pixel)
You can attach a Microsoft Kinect-like device to its USB port to obtain 
millimeter-level distance-to-sensor accuracies at short distances (25 meters) 
and sub-meter accuracies at long distances (200 meters). It is being looked
at to build the depth map emitters/sensors INTO the front of the lenses!

c) It shoots at 25 fps Burst rate at 50 megapixels

d) It has a 6.xx microns per photosite Bayer Pattern sensor.
It is NOT YET Global Shutter BUT a global shutter sensor is 
being designed and will be made available for a future version!
Rolling shutter is on par with Canon 1Dx Mk2 which is VERY GOOD!

e) It has 4:4:4 Uncompressed RAW and RGB+D 4:4:4/4:2:2 at 16/14/12/10/8-bits
per channel and Bitmap/JPEG-2000/JPEG still photos with a depth map channel.

f) It has 4:4:4 Uncompressed RAW and 2:1, 3:1 and 4:1 Run-length and ZIP-like
encoded RAW video at 16/14/12/10/8-bits per channel + depth map video 
saved internally to removable SSD drives (there are TWO SSD connectors) 
and via the two HDMI and two Display port video out ports. The output ports 
can be set INDEPENDENTLY to have the metadata/onscreen display overlays 
AND/OR be set to FULLY CLEAN DCI/HDTV/UHDTV 2K and 4K output resolutions.
Typically two of the 2-or-4-terabyte SSD flash drives are inserted! 
Two UHS-3 slots for SDXC and SDUC cards are on-camera for parallel 
writing of one copy of imagery put to each card for maximum safety OR
sequential writing for max capacity! (I insisted upon those two items!)
UHS-3 slots are for lower-res 4k/2K 422 video and 444/422 stills while
Two SSD SATA flash drives are for full 444/422 resolution/RAW stills and video
written in parallel for safety or in sequence for max capacity (user selectable).

g) It has DCI 4k (4096 x 2160 pixels), 3840x2160, 2048x1080p and 1920x1080p 
4:2:2 14/12/10/8-bits per channel + depth map INTERFRAME H.265-like
compressed video output to files and ports with each frame fully sampled 
from the entire sensor at a full 60 fps. (Video can be made CLEAN on 
all output ports)

h) It has interframe-compressed DCI 4K 120 fps 10 bit 4:2:2 video and 
DCI 4K 240 fps 4:2:0 8-bit video to files and output ports cropped 
from the middle of the sensor. I have insisted on a 300 fps and 
480 fps 422 10-bit 2048x1080p and 1920x1080p mode written to 
the container files and the codec buyer has agreed to ensure it 
comes out on the first version of camera with NO extra licencing fee! 
An Apple ProRes output file container is being looked at/designed for 
a future BIOS update.

i) It has Date/Clock Time/SMPTE Timecode/GPS Location (Lat/Long/Elevation) 
and Camera-head 3D-XYZ rotation/orientation Metadata Stamps and other 
user-definable Metadata Stamps embedded into every still photo and every 
video frame OR embedded at every GOP (Group of Frames) which is 
user-selectable and streamed out live via the USB-3.1 port, Gigabit Ethernet 
port or the Wi-Fi port and/or directly embedded into the saved video files 
and/or the HDMI/DisplayPort video streams.

j) It is low-light and low-noise-specific engineered BETTER THAN the Sony A7s2
AND has body and lens weather sealing SIMILAR to the Canon 1Dx Mk2!
It can also act as a very expensive 8K stills and DCI 4K/2K Video Webcam 
as it has a Gigabit Ethernet port and FAST Wi-Fi and all its Iris/Zoom/Focus/etc 
settings can be controlled from afar by wireless Wi-Fi interconnect or the Cat-6 
RJ-45 connector or the USB-3.1 connector. (I INSISTED upon that functionality!)

h) It has a very ergonomic moveable/changeable grip and the body
has a fully rotating/swivelling up-to-120 fps OLED 2.7k Live View screen

i) Multiple lenses are coming out right from the starting gate!
Both Zooms and Primes of VERY high quality! Lens prices will
be commensurate with quality of lenses. Future versions of lenses
will have a depth-map emitter and sensor system built-into the 
front of the lens.

j) Battery life for Stills AND Video is phenomenal because the
battery system is much larger than most other systems

k) IS SET TO BE MUCH Cheaper than the Hasselblad and Phase-One cameras!


2) A series of large sensor Android smartphones (Four-thirds AND an APS-C
at 28.4mm diagonal size) with 4K screens and 16 Gigabytes of SYSTEM RAM
and 128 GB and 256 GB of built-in storage is coming out! One phone will
have an interchangeable lens. I won't yet say which mount because that
would be too obvious!) Stills are 20+ Megapixels 4:4:4/4:2:2 RAW/JPEG-2000/JPEG
and video is 4096x2160 at 60 fps 10 bits 4:2:2 Interframe H.265-like encoded.

3) A DCI 8K (8192 by 4380 pixel) 65mm GLOBAL SHUTTER video/cinema 
with fully uncompressed 120 fps 16-bits per channel RAW/RGB+D camera is 
ALSO being introduced with more details coming later. 

It will surpass the Arri Alexa-65 in capability using a single DCI 8k 
Bayer sensor and NOT the 3 stitched-together sensors the Alexa-65 uses!
It will ALSO support anamorphic images and lenses up to 2.35/2.40:1 aspect ratio!

AND REMEMBER! 

YOU HEARD THIS ---CORPORATE APPROVED LEAK--- HERE FIRST !!!!!!!!!!


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## 9VIII (Jun 27, 2018)

scyrene said:


> Threads like this make me consider leaving this forum. Next to no information, and ANOTHER barrage of meaningless, pointless, exaggerated complaining, 'I know ten guys who've swapped to Sony', 'I won't but another Canon unless they include XY and Z', and very wrong comparisons with Kodak and Nokia (though Sears is a new one - I thought Blackberry was the third of the 'failure trinity'). I guess Mr CR wants clicks though, and clicks from trolls are worth as much as anyone's :



Leave the forum? Or leave enthusiast level photography?

Even if CR were intentionally trolling for clicks, that’s actually an honest business compared to review sites.
Especially one that is owned by the biggest retailer in the world, and needs to write articles to make excuses for their blatant support of a brand war: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/5446051925/brands-and-breakthroughs-here-s-why-you-ve-heard-so-much-about-sony-recently

The reality of modern photography culture is that Amazon has created a conflict of interest in almost every product review on the internet today.
The words “you don’t need to upgrade”, or “your old camera is still amazing”, or look at all this cheap used gear” will never be heard in another review ever again.
The current community of online reviewers cannot exist unless people use affiliate codes to buy products. No matter how honest a reviewer wants to be, if they use an affiliate program they directly profit from positive reviews.


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## 9VIII (Jun 27, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> YOU"RE RIGHT !!!!! Canon is Truly ******* !!!!
> 
> I unfortunately get to help it become even MORE ******* because THIS is what is coming out from a certain camera manufacturer which at this point shall remain nameless...BUT NOW...has my codec in it's products:
> ...



Last I heard this guy is just running a social engineering project, is that right?


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 27, 2018)

9VIII said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > YOU"RE RIGHT !!!!! Canon is Truly ******* !!!!
> ...



---

NOPE! I coded a fancy fully-custom 4:4:4/4:2:2/4:1:1/4:2:0 16/14/12/10/8/6-bits per channel interframe and intraframe video/stills codec which my boss freaked-out upon when he saw my work and then exercised his legal right to my intellectual property and then turned around and sold it to a very large multimedia company who I FULLY INSISTED VIA IRONCLAD CONTRACT put out the above products with my codec built-in. They agreed and my Bell 429 is now on order...

IT IS VERY VERY VERY REAL...IT IS ---NOT--- A SOCIAL EXPERIMENT !!!!

I just can't talk too much ...BUT... for irony's sake they DID AGREE 
to let me PURPOSEFULLY LEAK the specs on the CanonRumors website....

OH! THE SHEER IRONY...if not outright CHEEKINESS 
of this leak being put on here first.....!!!

OK Canon -- We KNOW you're reading this! --- Guess Who Is Coming To Dinner?

I must admit her "body" is -S-P-E-C-T-A-C-U-L-A-R- !!!!


----------



## transpo1 (Jun 27, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I’m sure the entire tech and business industries are wrong and you’re right. Of course.
> ...



Apple still makes most of their money on hardware, not services- last I checked, Canon was selling camera hardware.

Adding to and augmenting product lines results in disruption. There will be less DSLRs sold once they have prosumer and pro-level mirrorless. 

I know you feel threatened by that, but don't worry- MILCs will not replace DSLRs anytime in the near future, but disrupt them? Yes, they will. That's natural.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 28, 2018)

KirkD said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > kalieaire said:
> ...



You're confusing anecdotes with evidence. It's a regrettably common error. 

First, 'some people I know' and 'some people that know people that I know' are not, in any way, representative. Second, three whole people, wow...I just found four photographers who blogged that they switched from Sony back to Canon. Third, inability to meet demand can be due to high demand or low production...or a contrived restriction of shipments to drive _perception of_ high demand. Fourth, no one cares what you —as an individual— buy or don't buy. Fifth, please share your sources for model-specific sales (to my knowledge, neither Canon nor Sony release that level of detail).

Sell the glass, switch to Sony. Or don't. No one cares, except you. And one more time – anecdotes aren't data.


----------



## Danielle (Jun 28, 2018)

Sony is not yet the top company, not by a long shot. Canon is still the market leader by a long way, Im unsure where some of this information comes from. Shaking up the market perhaps but not leading!

Without meaning to defending Canon, it remains to be that they are making some competent hardware for photographers of all types. Hardware which is durable as well as functional. Durable isn't exactly a quality I'd point out with Sony. Im sure most of us have seen the weather sealing tests, something which Sony is a long long way from being up to scratch with. Im not sure about other's on this forum, but if I was using Sony bodies, Id suggest I would have had to visit the service department multiple times because of this.


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## Talys (Jun 28, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Adding to and augmenting product lines results in disruption. There will be less DSLRs sold once they have prosumer and pro-level mirrorless.
> 
> I know you feel threatened by that, but don't worry- MILCs will not replace DSLRs anytime in the near future, but disrupt them? Yes, they will. That's natural.



We don't actually knows this for a fact. It's entirely possible EOS M decreased Canon's APSC DSLR sales, but it is also possible that it didn't or even that the line increased DSLR sales.

For example, person A may purchase an M5 instead of a T6i. That's one for mirrorless and scratch one for DSLR.

But Person B may have purchased an M5, but already owned a T6i, and wasn't going to buy another APSC DSLR in 2017 anyways. That's growing the pie, not stealing a slice.

And then Person C may have purchased an M5 because they didn't like their A6300. And then, they decided afterwards, that they like the Canon system, and bought an 80D, then the following year bought buy a 5D Mark 4.

It's just impossible to tell, because absent mirrorless cameras, DSLR sales were probably on a downward trend anyways, for various reasons that we all know, but significantly, because DSLRs are a very mature product. A lot of people are happy with their DSLR, so no matter how great the next DSLR is... the 5D Mark 3 does everything they need. It's no different than someone with a desktop PC -- there's a good likelihood that even if the new one has technological advances, many users simply won't care or be able to take advantage of that in a meaningful way.

Personally, I fall into the Person B category. I'm very happy with my DSLR, but that doesn't mean I won't buy a mirrorless and be happy with that too. And doing so doesn't mean that I won't buy a future DSLR, because fundamentally, I still find that there are definite advantages to an optical viewfinder, which just isn't going to happen with a mirrorless product.


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## ahsanford (Jun 28, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> You're confusing anecdotes with evidence. It's a regrettably common error.



Whatever. You and your _words_.

I personally know three guys who got kicked in the nuts. When I finish med school, I'm going to specialize in scrotal surgery to make mad bank off of the global nut-kicking epidemic. 8)

- A


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## fullstop (Jun 28, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> even if they add more mirrorless that's not going to disrupt anything.



it will disrupt mirrorslapping. ;D

https://youtu.be/Z-_8RdQ2eig


----------



## transpo1 (Jun 28, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



Mirrorless is improving but it's not because of mirrorless, it's because of the companies producing them? Hmm...sounds like a dubious distinction. 

If people are overthinking the importance of mirrorless, why has Canon itself stated that they will push into this market? Also, an interesting- and yet dubious- point. 

I think you just want to be right, and yet- you're not- and it's common sense. Any prosumer or pro MILC by Canon will alter (and therefore *disrupt*) the Canon DSLR product line. You're arguing semantics now, but it's a fact.

As I told another worried forum-dweller, though- don't worry- DSLRs won't be going anywhere. But disrupted they shall be, if Canon is smart enough to do it.


----------



## justawriter (Jun 28, 2018)

So all these guys with two digit posts showing up all the time, are they bots or trolls? I wonder if it pays well. Hmm. (a couple of phone calls later) HEY EVERYBODY, HERE ARE FIVE REASONS RICOH IS EATING SONY'S AND CANON'S LUNCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY ARE *******! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## dak723 (Jun 28, 2018)

scyrene said:


> Threads like this make me consider leaving this forum. Next to no information, and ANOTHER barrage of meaningless, pointless, exaggerated complaining, 'I know ten guys who've swapped to Sony', 'I won't but another Canon unless they include XY and Z', and very wrong comparisons with Kodak and Nokia (though Sears is a new one - I thought Blackberry was the third of the 'failure trinity'). I guess Mr CR wants clicks though, and clicks from trolls are worth as much as anyone's :



Yes, alas, it is all about clicks. I don't know how many times I click the "Report to Moderator" button to report trolls and posts that do nothing but insult users. Nothing ever happens. This forum is turning into a joke.

But, yes, trolls means clicks. And ridiculous debate with folks arguing and defending inane and stupid opinions running rampant. Just look at this thread - 4 pages arguing about whether the the word "disrupt" is applicable for Canon''s move to mirrorless! The site - apparently - is redesigned, but it's the same old home to trolls that was before.


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## rrcphoto (Jun 28, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



you obviously have a reading problem with what i said, so let me phrase it differently. over the last 2-3 years the mirrorless companies finally have developed complete systems.

Thus their marketshares would naturally grow as they can complete as companies with camera systems, not just a camera. Canon has also stated that they will add cameras into niches where they see fit. Mirrorless and video particularly is a niche.

we also have absolutely no clue if they will disrupt versus augment.

EOS-M has it disrupted the rebel lineup? probably not particularly. Canon mirrorless isn't going to disrupt the 5D / 7D / 6D lineup anymore than canon adding the 5Ds disrupted the 5D 1DX lineup.

with canon continuing to grow marketshare, it's far more of a good working theory that EOS-M has augmented their lineup in particular markets, but hasn't disrupted their DSLR lineup overall.

otherwise, they wouldn't be suggesting a good growth of mirrorless in their financials and also at the same time illustrating marketshare growth in a declining market.

the M5 btw, is a prosumer camera body, same with the M6.

while they have sold well, Canon continues to rock out the xxD, rebels and super rebel lineups.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 28, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> ...it's common sense. Any prosumer or pro MILC by Canon will alter (and therefore *disrupt*) the Canon DSLR product line. You're arguing semantics now, but it's a fact.



Yes, just like the EOS M lineup has disrupted Canon's APS-C DSLR lineup. Oh, wait..... :


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## RGF (Jun 28, 2018)

Like to see Canon's update to the 5D M4. Nikon scored a major accomplishment with the D850. Canon your turn at bat


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## ahsanford (Jun 28, 2018)

RGF said:


> Like to see Canon's update to the 5D M4. Nikon scored a major accomplishment with the D850. Canon your turn at bat



You realize the 5D5 is a solid 2-3 years away, right?

- A


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## pj1974 (Jun 28, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > ...it's common sense. Any prosumer or pro MILC by Canon will alter (and therefore *disrupt*) the Canon DSLR product line. You're arguing semantics now, but it's a fact.
> ...



Yes, take me for example! I have owned Canon DSLRs for ~15 years. Recently purchased a Canon M5.

I still own a Canon 80D, 7D and um... well a few older DSLRs for 'timelapse' purposes :

So the introduction of mirrorless was very 'disruptive' very much so... to my bank account - for a little while!! lol

I look forward to the Canon M5 mkII... who knows what I'll own in 5 years time.

New bodies, perhaps?... Lenses, lots of lenses (?). Accessories, tons of accessories (!) and other photography 'stuff'. 

My example is definitely not anecdotal it is very much 'representative' lol  

PJ


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## Drainpipe (Jun 28, 2018)

Chaitanya said:


> More interested to know what lenses are coming out? More precisely a 180mm or 50/60mm FF macros. Also interested to see what Sigma and Tamron bring to Photokina in terms of macros.



I’m right there with you! An unexpected MP-E update would be fantastic.


----------



## 9VIII (Jun 28, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > HarryFilm said:
> ...



Actually most of the specs would fit in line with a RED product, and as far as I know they're the only company with any plans for a phone with a lens mount.

It would be interesting if any of this is real but even if it is, it doesn't sound like anything that would bother Canon besides their Cinema line.


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## fullstop (Jun 28, 2018)

if i recall correctly,Harry "predicted" an APS-C sensored cameraphone with lens mount for interchangeable lenses - FROM CANON. not from another company. plus all sorts of other products, namely a "medium-format" camera, also FROM CANON. not from some other company. 

personally i attach as much "predictive value" to these as i do for a "weather forecast for next year" or the "astrological horoscope" on page 17 of the free "newspaper" distributed in subway stations. 

it really does appear to be some social experiment. hope it yields a really good master's thesis.


----------



## rjbray01 (Jun 28, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> kalieaire said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty sure with a decade of disappointments in the DSLR industry, they've forgotten how to disrupt.
> ...



I can see the board meetings now 

"It's all going Bally well boys - no need to do much just keep the machines rolling and follow the competition with premium prices and we'll all be off for our corporate jolly in Bermuda again soon"


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 28, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > kalieaire said:
> ...



Why not? Bermuda is nice! I'm sure the folks in Canon's board room can read Sony's IR literature just as well as you or I. Has it escaped your notice that Canon holds ~50% of the ILC market and that both Sony's and Canon's latest internal projections show no change in ILC market share in the coming year? 

But hey, feel free to maintain your opinion in the face of facts that contradict it. On this forum, (and unfortunately, in the real world as well) you're far from alone in that regard.


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## ashmadux (Jun 28, 2018)

Its entertaining (NOT) to read every response to 

_"Canon needs to step thier game up.."_ 

with this crap:

_"But oooh, your complaining, BUT THEY ARE #1"_ 


Such a juvenile response in terms of thought. : These guys act like canon has a better body than the d850 or a better crop than the d500, much less sony bodies. These recent bodies demolish all of canons offerings...and nikon is damn near broke.

Look I love my 5d3, and i wouldn't mind have a 5d4 and such, but come on...there hasn't been an exciting canon body since the 1dx2. The 5ds is basically the 5 series with more resolution and literally nothing else. 7d2 was a jokes at launch. 6d2, hat a tragic waste of resources just to hobble it anyways.

That said, every rumor is now something about canon bringing something out 6 months to 3 years from now. It's ridiculous. 4 years in between bodies in some cases. this nonsense can't continue. They dont have a clue as to what to do with thier rebels....they may as well just kill the rebel and merge it with the M line. Its not like they come out with efs lenses anyways.

Lastly, (again) _we could care less about your market-share responses_, because comparatively, our bodies are boring as hell compared to the fast moving competition.



PS - And is anyone paying attention to the further destruction of the photo profession, with RAW abilities seeping its way into billions of consumer tech? Man, the writing is soooo on the wall. If there were bigger sensors in phones, the camera market would burn up sooo fast.


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## amorse (Jun 28, 2018)

ashmadux said:


> Its entertaining (NOT) to read every response to
> 
> _"Canon needs to step thier game up.."_
> 
> ...



Honestly, I agree with the sentiment that the majority of comments on this forum seem to pick one side of that dichotomy, but I think the gap between them comes from a difference of how people interpret each statement.

Stating "Canon needs to step up their game" may be intended to read - "Canon needs to step up their game _to keep me buying Canon products_" but it is often interpreted as "Canon needs to step up their game _if they're going to survive_".

Obviously anyone receiving that comment as "Canon needs to step up their game _if they're going to survive_" can have a reasonably objective difference of opinion in that matter since Canon has yet to show signs of death or slowdown - hence the obvious "But oooh, your complaining, BUT THEY ARE #1". On the other hand, stating "Canon needs to step up their game _to keep me buying Canon products_" is a reasonable statement of one person's buying habits. To each their own - I fully support people voting with their wallet.

Also, anyone who is frustrated with Canon not producing products which *they* would see as innovative or leading will be super frustrated with the response "But oooh, your complaining, BUT THEY ARE #1" since it doesn't resolve their issue and belittles their frustration/disappointment. It's received as "your opinion doesn't matter" or "the product isn't wrong, what you want is wrong".

This all combines to create what is sometimes a really toxic atmosphere in this forum where any voiced disappointment with a Canon release results in being painted as a troll, and any justification of Canon's activities based on their expected motivations as a for-profit business result in being painted as a Canon fanboy. As with most things, the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.


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## Durf (Jun 28, 2018)

All the well known camera brands make excellent products. If one has a creative mind and knows how to use whatever gear they own, they can get astonishing images period. 

I personally like Canon and that's what I buy. I don't own their best products but what I do have are outstanding in quality and dependability and I love using the gear, that's all that matters to me....

As for trolls, well, some people have nothing better to do than to spend countless hours complaining and most likely are living a miserable existence anyways.

As for fanboys, well, at least their existence is a more happy one


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 28, 2018)

amorse said:


> Honestly, I agree with the sentiment that the majority of comments on this forum seem to pick one side of that dichotomy, but I think the gap between them comes from a difference of how people interpret each statement.
> 
> Stating "Canon needs to step up their game" may be intended to read - "Canon needs to step up their game _to keep me buying Canon products_" but it is often interpreted as "Canon needs to step up their game _if they're going to survive_".
> 
> ...



Agreed. 

Statement: “I find Canon products boring, Sony is delivering great stuff.” Response: “Enjoy your new Sony gear.”

Statement: “I find Canon products boring, Canon is *******.” Response: “Sorry that reality has popped your thought bubble.”

Some people find new, bleeding-edge tech exciting. Probably such people are drawn to a forum like this, which is part of a website focused on rumors about forthcoming gear. But then people mistakenly assume that because they find some like-minded people here, this place represents the broader market. It doesn’t. A majority of people out in the real world just want something familiar and something that works reliably. Canon understands this, as their longstanding and continuing dominance of the market demonstrates. 

The reality of market share isn’t a rebuttal to, “I don’t like Canon’s [fill-in-the-blank].” It’s a rebuttal to, “Canon is in real trouble because they can’t compete with [fill-in-the-blank].” 




ashmadux said:


> Its entertaining (NOT) to read every response to
> 
> _"Canon needs to step thier game up.."_
> 
> ...



Well, the reality is that Canon is #1 in the ILC market. By a large margin. I’m sorry that you find factual statements to be ‘crap’. That says nothing about reality, but says a lot about you.


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 28, 2018)

dak723 said:


> I don't know how many times I click the "Report to Moderator" button to report trolls and posts that do nothing but insult users. Nothing ever happens.



Sure it does. I got a warning a couple weeks back for being frank in a discussion about profit margin.


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## dak723 (Jun 28, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> dak723 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know how many times I click the "Report to Moderator" button to report trolls and posts that do nothing but insult users. Nothing ever happens.
> ...



Makes me wonder then why the obvious trolls whose sole intent is to insult and inflame are still here....


----------



## transpo1 (Jun 28, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> RGF said:
> 
> 
> > Like to see Canon's update to the 5D M4. Nikon scored a major accomplishment with the D850. Canon your turn at bat
> ...



Too bad. It shouldn't be. But Canon are by nature extremely cautious and too risk-averse to release a new model so quickly and disrupt their usual release patterns. They'd rather just drop the price of the 5DIV by $600 to increase sales.


----------



## ahsanford (Jun 28, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > You realize the 5D5 is a solid 2-3 years away, right?
> ...


It's not just about units, it's about profits over time. Manufacturers lose their shirt financially in Year 1 getting everything up and running, they break even in Year 2 and they are absolutely printing money in Years 3 and beyond. Canon lives in years 3 and beyond better than anyone*.

(*Obv. each company's break-even timing is different, but you get the basic relationship: the longer a company can keep something on the market and still command a decent price, they will be much more profitable.)

- A


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## scyrene (Jun 28, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > RGF said:
> ...



I can see why as an enthusiast that would bum you out, but I can also see why as a company they would do that - if you have a choice between two courses of action, both of which will increase profits, one of which is a lot easier to do, then you'd do that one, right?


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## transpo1 (Jun 28, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > ...it's common sense. Any prosumer or pro MILC by Canon will alter (and therefore *disrupt*) the Canon DSLR product line. You're arguing semantics now, but it's a fact.
> ...



Your response is an interesting premise but it doesn't reflect the data. DSLRs sales are continuing on a slow decline while mirrorless sales hold steady or increase, especially in Asia, which is a key motivating market for Canon and the other companies in question.

So the disruption is happening, it just may be outside of your bubble.

Don't you hate it when reality bites you?


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## ahsanford (Jun 28, 2018)

scyrene said:


> I can see why as an enthusiast that would bum you out, but I can also see why as a company they would do that - if you have a choice between two courses of action, both of which will increase profits, one of which is a lot easier to do, then you'd do that one, right?



In fairness, Sony's not _completely_ batsh-- crazy with their frantic FF ILC releases as (it appears) that a fair amount of componentry on a macro scale (knobs, buttons, basic body shape, etc.) has steadily been around from the I to II to III models. So they may be frantically spitting out cameras, sensors, EVFs, etc. perhaps a good chunk of the core tooling, assembly, QE apparatus etc. can live on past a single product line.

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 28, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



Yes, I do. But in this case, you’re the one who’s been bitten...and if you look carefully at the bite mark on your butt, you’ll see an exact match to your own teeth.

Read the words I highlighted above...your words. DSLR sales are continuing on the same course...a slow decline (which is typical for a saturated/mature market). Continuing on the same course. Where’s the disruption? There isn’t one. 

But, thanks for playing. Better luck next time! 8)


----------



## ashmadux (Jun 28, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, I agree with the sentiment that the majority of comments on this forum seem to pick one side of that dichotomy, but I think the gap between them comes from a difference of how people interpret each statement.
> ...




Says a lot about me? Riiiiiiight Neero. 


_*"BUT LOOK AT THE SALES!"*_

_- Neero., The Common 'Always Correct' Comment Section Irritant_


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## dak723 (Jun 28, 2018)

ashmadux said:


> Such a juvenile response in terms of thought. : These guys act like canon has a better body than the d850 or a better crop than the d500, much less sony bodies. These recent bodies demolish all of canons offerings...and nikon is damn near broke.



So I guess people who say moronic things like "These recent bodies demolish all of canons offerings" should be listened to and respected and not considered trolls. Since all cameras are producing about the same results, it is hard to see how "demolish" is anything but a word meant to inflame. And inflame = troll comment.



> Look I love my 5d3, and i wouldn't mind have a 5d4 and such, but come on...there hasn't been an exciting canon body since the 1dx2. The 5ds is basically the 5 series with more resolution and literally nothing else. 7d2 was a jokes at launch. 6d2, hat a tragic waste of resources just to hobble it anyways.



Virtually all DSLR releases in the past decade have been small, marginal upgrades. So there have been no exciting camera bodies made by anyone - not just Canon. And, once again, terms like "a joke at launch" and "tragic waste" are nothing but troll comments meant to inflame. Both of these cameras produce excellent images that are virtually indistinguishable from cameras made by other brands. And it is about the photos, isn't it? 



> That said, every rumor is now something about canon bringing something out 6 months to 3 years from now. It's ridiculous. 4 years in between bodies in some cases. this nonsense can't continue. They dont have a clue as to what to do with thier rebels....they may as well just kill the rebel and merge it with the M line. Its not like they come out with efs lenses anyways.
> 
> Lastly, (again) _we could care less about your market-share responses_, because comparatively, our bodies are boring as hell compared to the fast moving competition.



If you are looking for - and judging a camera company by whether they are boring or not, well, that is your prerogative. The fact that most people don't use that as their criteria doesn't make us apologists, or fanboys. We just have different priorities. When people don't understand such a simple concept, they should be called out - and that's why some folks on this forum do.


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## stevelee (Jun 28, 2018)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uai7M4RpoLU


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## Otara (Jun 28, 2018)

Arguing that mirrorless is disrupting DSLR is a bit like arguing over whether horse buggies are disrupting carts while wheezing noisy motorcars go slowly by. They're both getting murdered by phones in the long run mainstream wise.


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## Talys (Jun 29, 2018)

dak723 said:


> ashmadux said:
> 
> 
> > Look I love my 5d3, and i wouldn't mind have a 5d4 and such, but come on...there hasn't been an exciting canon body since the 1dx2. The 5ds is basically the 5 series with more resolution and literally nothing else. 7d2 was a jokes at launch. 6d2, hat a tragic waste of resources just to hobble it anyways.
> ...




The people looking for amazing, revolutionary camera releases and are constantly disappointed by "joke" launches can be divided into two types: those in search of technological improvements to improve photography, and those who are more interested in technology than photography.


I see amazing photography all the time, more often than not with very old cameras. The difference maker is the photographer, and their way of being able to "make something out of nothing" -- to take an average building and an average person, and very minimal equipment, yet by artistic talent and understanding of light, create a photograph that is flattering, interesting, and remarkable. 

For those who want better photographs, go buy an older camera and stop being handicapped by barrages of menus and shooting modes, because eventually you will come to the inescapable truth that the same crappy scene taken with the best camera in the world still yields a crappy photograph. Turning dials and pushing buttons ultimately turn a boring photograph into a crisper boring photograph. Yay!

For those who want better technology, pick another poison, because the nature of photography equipment is plateaus of miniscule changes, followed by a few seismic leaps, then more long plateaus of miniscule changes. Why is that? Because the technology matures, and then it's just about little improvements. See above... the problem with the photograph is behind the viewfinder.


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## Mikehit (Jun 29, 2018)

Talys said:


> I see amazing photography all the time, more often than not with very old cameras. The difference maker is the photographer, and their way of being able to "make something out of nothing" -- to take an average building and an average person, and very minimal equipment, yet by artistic talent and understanding of light, create a photograph that is flattering, interesting, and remarkable.



https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/jul/27/london-olympics-2012-smartphone

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6618756953/photojournalist-dan-chung-reflects-shooting-olympics-with-iphone


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## greger (Jun 29, 2018)

Some of these posts have been very interesting. Me, I’m looking for a 7D lll in September. If it doesn’t have an articulating screen the 90D is the camera for me. I can live with 2 custom settings on the mode dial. As long as I can take BIF pics I’ll be a happy camper.


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## fullstop (Jun 29, 2018)

1) 99% of really good images [other than studio work] DEPEND on "privileged access" to the scene. It is the first condition to be met, to set those images fundamentally apart "from what the masses can see themselves".

2) Creativity, "photographic eye" and skill come next. 
3) Right equipment best suited to the task comes thereafter. 

Disclaimer: Yes, even if I had the same access to/at Olympic games or a Metallica concert or behind-the-scenes at the Met opera or the oval office, my images would still suck in comparison to most  pro's work, but they would be "by magnitudes better" than anything I will ever be able to get in (my) real life. Even if I was only allowed an iphone with add-on lenses/binoculars. 

In terms of "technical quality" Dan Chung's London 2012 iphone 4S images suck of course. The only one i really like, is reduced to black and white and just the right amount of blur. So noise, colour and sharpness are totally unimportant. 
https://www.dpreview.com/files/p/articles/6618756953/IMG_3344_Snapseed.jpg

whereas this one "is not even worth the pixels" to me:
https://www.dpreview.com/files/p/articles/6618756953/dc_IMG_0251_Snapseed.jpg
Imagine, what that image could have really been, had he used "proper gear".


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## bwud (Jun 29, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Disclaimer: Yes, even if I had the same access to/at Olympic games or a Metallica concert



Speak of the devil

Some flavor of iPhone - I don’t remember what I had at the time


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## ashmadux (Jun 29, 2018)

Talys said:


> dak723 said:
> 
> 
> > ashmadux said:
> ...






You guys make it difficult to have sensible conversations debate here, because well, THIS. And this is called, changing the conversation.

You want to talk about the merits of good photography, that's great, more power to you. But I could pinkie-swear we were discussing, _or even the thread is about canon cameras_....and not photographer skill.

And let's stop using the lame, tired argument that the tools are not important, which this segway always seems to imply. Yet the same people making this suggestion are on camera forum boards discussing, well...camera bodies. Cmon, ya'' can do better.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 29, 2018)

ashmadux said:


> ashmadux said:
> 
> 
> > Look I love my 5d3, and i wouldn't mind have a 5d4 and such, but come on...there hasn't been an exciting canon body since the 1dx2. The 5ds is basically the 5 series with more resolution and literally nothing else. 7d2 was a jokes at launch. 6d2, hat a tragic waste of resources just to hobble it anyways.
> ...



But calling cameras people have purchased and are out there making excellent images with jokes and wastes of resources makes it really easy to have a sensible conversation. Yeah, that makes sense.


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## jayphotoworks (Jun 29, 2018)

Talys said:


> The people looking for amazing, revolutionary camera releases and are constantly disappointed by "joke" launches can be divided into two types: those in search of technological improvements to improve photography, and those who are more interested in technology than photography.



I think there are varying shades of gray in there as well. I enjoy the tech aspect as much as the photography, or in my case cinematography/video. The tech doesn't necessarily improve the end result, but it does simplify or improve the route in getting there. Canon wasn't always like this. Rewinding back 10 years or so, the 1D3 was my first flagship with LV and this feature was great to have without needing an angle finder and for overhead shots. The 1D4 added 1080 video which was even better. There was a period of time where Canon really pushed the envelope. The 1DX was the last Canon flagship I shot on which finally moved to FF and at a time I was still heavily shooting photos. 

It's unfortunate that Canon's market share today dictates that they don't have to do much to appeal to the smaller or niche crowd or enthusiast. Perhaps this trend will change in the next wave of mirror-less cameras. I think some of the people here that appear to troll, simply haven't thought out how to best articulate themselves. There are different age groups with varying levels of english proficiency at play as well. I understand the general sentiment they are trying to convey, but the delivery could probably be improved. At the same time, I understand how writing about the competition in an environment that widely supports an opposing brand is fraught with peril, but at least some members here that support Canon could probably show a bit more empathy in that regards.


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## scyrene (Jun 29, 2018)

jayphotoworks said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > The people looking for amazing, revolutionary camera releases and are constantly disappointed by "joke" launches can be divided into two types: those in search of technological improvements to improve photography, and those who are more interested in technology than photography.
> ...



But do you think the envelope can be pushed that much these days - by anyone? Digital cameras developed more rapidly in their infancy, because that's generally what happens with technology. Things start to level out once things become mature. Being the dominant manufacturer may make them less inclined to take risks, as some see it (or rather, they've hit on a winning formula), but I think that's often overstated. Adding video or live view, to take your examples, were leaps. What similar leaps are left?


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## ashmadux (Jun 29, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> ashmadux said:
> 
> 
> > ashmadux said:
> ...




Um, I have an M1, 30k images. That camera doesn't exactly get love from the community (quite the opposite). Yet you dont see me in threads crying about it. Oh, and I LOVE to use the adapter too (hides under the desk).

And what's your point you're making now? Feelings? WTH....I believe you are purposely being 'intellectually foolish' in your responses, and it is still disappointing since I do have respect for your technical knowledge. Even in these forums where your weak attempts at disparaging others opinions with cheesy, dry pot shots, many a canon fan have been disappointed for quite some time by our favorite camera maker.

That said, if you choose to go all into the woods to defend your nonsense rebuttal, please go back in time and find all the excitement for those bodies when they dropped. The common thread with canon cameras has been 'mild update' for YEARS, including the 5d4. You have fun with that, smart guy.


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## Mikehit (Jun 29, 2018)

jayphotoworks said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > The people looking for amazing, revolutionary camera releases and are constantly disappointed by "joke" launches can be divided into two types: those in search of technological improvements to improve photography, and those who are more interested in technology than photography.
> ...



Regards the bit in red, Canon had a definite shift in the late 2000's and went from high profile functions to just making the cameras better to use. Maybe they saw the obvious in diminishing returns and decided to only release 'new techy' when ti was ready and when it was a major improvement.
After all the hullabaloo of disappointment over the 5DIV, and how it was not worth upgrading because of the disappointing specs, anyone who did go from mk3 to mk4 said how it was better in almost every way because of hte way Canon had developed existing functions.
For myself, I have always found Canon to be poor at self-promotion and do little to explain how good new menu items are for example. 

So yes, Canon do still innovate but not in the way many people measure it on websites and forums. And no, I am not saying everyone has to like what they do but everyone needs to appreciate that what they do do, they do it extremely well. 
Some companies wow you by releasing new models every year or two, when all they are doing is fix bugs that should not have been there in the original model.


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## fullstop (Jun 29, 2018)

scyrene said:


> But do you think the envelope can be pushed that much these days - by anyone?



Yes. Canon could finally make compact, fully competent, amateur-affordable mirrorless FF camera/s with excellent IQ, functionality and performance. Possibly including some or all of the following things Canon should be able to do, but has not done yet:
* Eye Control AF v2.0 [in addition to "Eye tracking AF"] 
* wireless RT flash controller built-in or as a user mountable module [if easier with FCC regulations]
* wireless ETTL protocol v2.0 with 2nd curtain sync 
* distance-based focus trap 
* DOF mode v2.0
etc. 

plus a lineup of nice, compact and amateur-affordable lenses to along with it. 

Many fellow forum members here would probably agree, that for Canon this would really mean "pushing the envelope" ... ;D


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## Mikehit (Jun 29, 2018)

fullstop said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > But do you think the envelope can be pushed that much these days - by anyone?
> ...



Hardly 'pushing boundaries'....


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## Talys (Jun 29, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Yes. Canon could finally make compact, fully competent, amateur-affordable mirrorless FF camera/s with excellent IQ, functionality and performance. Possibly including some or all of the following things Canon should be able to do, but has not done yet:
> * Eye Control AF v2.0 [in addition to "Eye tracking AF"]
> * wireless RT flash controller built-in or as a user mountable module [if easier with FCC regulations]
> * wireless ETTL protocol v2.0 with 2nd curtain sync
> ...



Great, I'll be happy for the crowd that wants this, if Canon builds such a thing, but I won't be amongst one of those customers. I do not want:

1. A full frame camera that is Compact - because I have APSC cameras and smartphones that are much better at that. But what I need in full frame is something that is a good ergonomic fit for bigger, heavier lenses.

2. Amateur-affordable compact lenses - because this will entail compromises I'm not happy with. Canon hasn't figured out yet to defy physics, so the lenses I want won't be any shorter or lighter.


It's like me saying that I look forward to the black paint without red stripe half-size version of the 200-400+TC. Smokin' hot pipe dream, but I'm better off buying lottery tickets or smoking more pipes.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 29, 2018)

ashmadux said:


> That said, if you choose to go all into the woods to defend your nonsense rebuttal, please go back in time and find all the excitement for those bodies when they dropped. The common thread with canon cameras has been 'mild update' for YEARS, including the 5d4. You have fun with that, smart guy.



Lol. That's been true for all ILCs for years. Granted, there has been some sycophantic internet gushing about Sony's releases, but hey, if you send me on all-expense-paid junkets to great locations to try out your gear, maybe I'd gush about it, too. 

No one gets excited about a new Camry sedan or a new Chevy truck, but people buy them...and they work. Conversely, there's been lots of excitement about the new Tesla models, which work great except for the few people they happen to kill.


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## fullstop (Jun 29, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Hardly 'pushing boundaries'....



well Mike. If I suggest "boundary pushing" Canon gear like coming up with the first lightfield/computational camera sized like the L16 and at least "as good" in all aspects as a 5D IV [other than size] - you'd be first to cry "oO fullstop in his dream universe", right?

To spare you all that excitement, we were only talking about "pushing the envelope" here. Within well established boundaries.  

The few things I've suggested would already mean "really, really pushing the envelope" for Canon, apparently. For this esteemed, highly innovative, market-leading company even an accurate and more precise battery gauge seems to be "pushing the envelope" - and for some esteemed fellow forum members too. ;D


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 29, 2018)

fullstop said:


> For this esteemed, highly innovative, market-leading company even an accurate and more precise battery gauge seems to be "pushing the envelope" - and for some esteemed fellow forum members too. ;D



Don’t you think you’re mischaracterizing the discussion, just a wee bit? It was pretty much agreed that Canon could implement such a feature easily (for batteries with appropriate hardware, e.g. the LP-E6). At issue was the the fact that certain individuals, such as you, place a much higher level of importance on that feature than other individuals – and, presumably, Canon.


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## Mikehit (Jun 29, 2018)

fullstop said:
 

> To spare you all that excitement, we were only talking about "pushing the envelope" here. Within well established boundaries.



Depends if you are talking about pushing the envelop within the current boundaries of Canon, or pushing the envelope of the market as a whole. All of those are not implemented by anyone which suggests to me they need significant development. To you, the fact that they do not exist means Canon is not trying hard enough.

I love the idea of hoverboards and anti-gravity boots - how stupid of tech companies not to have marketed them already.


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## ahsanford (Jun 29, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Hardly 'pushing boundaries'....
> ...



But take FF mirrorless for a moment: Canon's mandate is not to blow people away with some Ferrari spec'd supercamera or some optical science fiction made real. 

Canon's FF mirrorless mandate -- besides land-grabbing a ripe market Sony has kindly nurtured with a lot of investment -- is to:


*Expand what SLR photographers can do in targeted ways:*

Breathe LiveView shooting information into a photographer's general handheld shooting routine. This doesn't mean that Canon will want everyone to have their EVF looking like Iron Man's HUD, but it's an opportunity to bring customization to the handheld viewfinder experience.


Bring a smaller kit to do the same job or make carrying a second camera less of a burden and more likely to happen -- obv. this opportunity is greatly limited by your glass, what you are shooting, etc.


Unlock the potential of handheld manual focus glass without the fuss of focusing screen changes and the lack of confidence a briefly flickering AF confirmation dot gives you.


[Insert your FF mirrorless wish here -- adapt old lenses, adapt Nikkor glass, bring your camera more places with you, etc.]



*Bring new blood to Canon.* Court new users, younger folks, the IG community who really don't give a damn about DR or fps and just want to take better pictures with something that doesn't look like their Dad's camera. Some of these folks have the money and desire to want more -- they see FF output that pops on IG and they are curious how to do it themselves.


*Retain the love and loyalty of their current customers.* Eliminate 'Canon doesn't offer X' (at a higher/segment-level, not a feature-level) from the list of reasons why someone would leave. This is not going to be a please the userbase in specifics sort of thing. Very much like with EOS M, it's not mind-blowing but it's there, it's effective, and it's 10x easier to just get one of those than cross the aisle and take on the pain points of a new system, lenses, interface, etc. 

None of the things on that list require some EXMOR sensor hotness, a company culture of wild innovation, some radical departure from the market, etc.

Many folks want FF mirrorless to be exciting, buzzworthy and cool. Canon wants it to simply exist, work well and be well-targeted to make specific moves in the market. Those are two very different things.

- A


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## dak723 (Jun 29, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Many folks want FF mirrorless to be exciting, buzzworthy and cool. Canon wants it to simply exist, work well and be well-targeted to make specific moves in the market. Those are two very different things.
> 
> - A



Very often companies that promote "exciting, buzzworthy and cool" usually do so because there products do not work that well. Sony FF is a great example, in my experience. Maybe because I am older, "exciting, buzzworthy and cool" have very little appeal to me - in fact are probably negatives for the reason stated above. Give me "easy to use, well made and reliable" any day of the week.


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## Durf (Jun 29, 2018)

dak723 said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Many folks want FF mirrorless to be exciting, buzzworthy and cool. Canon wants it to simply exist, work well and be well-targeted to make specific moves in the market. Those are two very different things.
> ...



I'm getting older too....my "exciting, buzzworthy and cool" is driving around in my 1996 Silverado 4x4 with my 6D Mark ii laying on the seat with an old Takumar 85mm f/1.8 Lens attached to it. All 3 which are extremely "easy to use, well made and reliable".


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## unfocused (Jun 29, 2018)

Durf said:


> dak723 said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



I think a lot of the disagreements on this site come down to different expectations. It may be generational, I'm not sure, but it seems like some people view cameras as just another electronic device like a laptop or a smart phone or gaming console and expect the latest technology to be incorported fairly frequently. 

Others think of cameras as basically an appliance, intended to perform a certain function and a means to achieve a goal -- personal expression, documenting moments, etc. And, expect to replace it infrequently.

One isn't necessarily right and one wrong, but hard for one side to understand the other's perspective.


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## fullstop (Jun 29, 2018)

unfocused said:


> Others think of cameras as basically an appliance, ...
> 
> One isn't necessarily right and one wrong, but hard for one side to understand the other's perspective.



yes, I agree with your observation. 

SCNR: "But those that view cameras like an appliance should get one not in black, nor in pink, light blue, or champagne color, but only in "PC-beige" or "washer/dryer off-white". ;D  ;D


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 29, 2018)

fullstop said:


> SCNR: "But those that view cameras like an appliance should get one not in black, nor in pink, light blue, or champagne color, but only in "PC-beige" or "washer/dryer off-white". ;D  ;D



Nonsense. All my appliances are stainless steel. I bought the EOS M6 in black so I could tell it apart from my other appliances. ;D


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## fullstop (Jun 30, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > SCNR: "But those that view cameras like an appliance should get one not in black, nor in pink, light blue, or champagne color, but only in "PC-beige" or "washer/dryer off-white". ;D  ;D
> ...



LOL ... not surprised you got a Bulthaupt kitchen at home. 

PS: daughter has unboxed M50 [in black ofc] and is happy ... the most about Wifi / Camera connect with her iPhone. LOL ;D


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## dak723 (Jun 30, 2018)

unfocused said:


> Durf said:
> 
> 
> > dak723 said:
> ...



Good observation. I agree that this difference is hard for some to reconcile. For those like me - who look at cameras as the tool I use to take photographs - it is frustrating to try and reason with those that believe that spec sheets are the be all and end all when it comes to cameras. I understand that review sites - in order to exist and get clicks - have to concentrate on and exaggerate the importance of those minuscule differences in various tests in order to differentiate between cameras in their ratings. Those that want "innovation" and "advances" can't seem to comprehend that some of us may prefer 24 to 36 MP, or 16 AF points rather than 144, or don't see any great advantage to a camera that reaches AF in .2 seconds rather than .18 seconds. It's about the photos, not the camera. How reliable is it? How easy and quickly can I change settings so I don't miss the shot? How accurate is the AF? How accurate is the exposure? How is the color? How is the contrast and tonal curves? If the camera I have does all that to my complete satisfaction, why switch brands or even upgrade?

In terms of appliances...why would I buy a washer that has all the latest tech, but doesn't get my clothes any cleaner? I wouldn't. Some would, and, in my opinion, they would be wasting their money.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 30, 2018)

dak723 said:


> In terms of appliances...why would I buy a washer that has all the latest tech, but doesn't get my clothes any cleaner? I wouldn't. Some would, and, in my opinion, they would be wasting their money.



I just don't get you. If your washer doesn't have Bluetooth, it's sh!t.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 30, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> dak723 said:
> 
> 
> > In terms of appliances...why would I buy a washer that has all the latest tech, but doesn't get my clothes any cleaner? I wouldn't. Some would, and, in my opinion, they would be wasting their money.
> ...


My new Gas Range has wi-fi, as to its usefulness, the feature is just there to convince buyers that its got the latest and greatest. I had no choice, since the range was what I needed. I can see which burners are lighted and the oven temperature on my iPhone via Wi-Fi, but only if I turn it on manually. I'm glad my iPhone cannot turn it on, that would let a hacker do some nasty things.


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## stevelee (Jun 30, 2018)

I'm reminded of the reviews I've read on c|net of expensive refrigerators that they say do all sorts of amazing things well except for keeping food cold.


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## transpo1 (Jun 30, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Haha, nice try and interesting spin. 

But the disruption *is* the slow decline, so I'm afraid reality has actually bitten you again. If you actually look at the market graphs for the past two years, the decline in DSLR shipments and increase in mirrorless shipments actually correspond very well. 

And with 3 mirrorless cameras likely on the way, I'm inclined to think Canon agrees with the disruption theory. And oh, yes, their executives have actually said so:

"[Canon must] actively roll out products for a growth market even if there is some cannibalization."

Isn't this game fun?


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 30, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> But the disruption *is* the slow decline



I could probably find a more oxymoronic statement...but I'd have to look hard. 

If you look at the market over time, DSLRs show the characteristic pattern for a mature/saturating market. MILCs are a slow evolution of that market. Canon sees that, obviously. They're _adding_ MILCs to their ILC lineup, and also adding new DSLRs. There's no disruption of their DSLR lineup. 

Truly, your understanding of market dynamics is dizzying. 




transpo1 said:


> Isn't this game fun?



Not really. I enjoy a challenge, and this isn't one, it's more like the New England Patriots playing a football game against a bunch of 5 year-olds on a Pop Warner team. But there, at least the 5 year-olds might learn something.


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## stevelee (Jun 30, 2018)

I was looking at lenses at Best Buy yesterday. A woman walked up to the salesman I was talking with and said a friend told her that mirrorless cameras took better pictures than DSLRs. The salesman told her that comparable models of either took equally good pictures. She said that she had too many cameras and barely used most of them, especially her Nikon DSLR. She was about to make another trip to Japan and needed something to take with her. We were standing near the Sony display, and she picked up one of the FF models and that it was as heavy as her regular cameras. So the guy had her look at some of the crop models. He mentioned that she would need to be even more careful when changing lenses since the sensor is even more unprotected when there is no mirror in front of it. He said that the Sony specialist she had dealt with before was working, but he didn't see him around just then. She decided to do some more reading and come back. The Sony guy came back about then, I guess, because she greeted someone and said she would see him later.

I doubt she is typical of camera buyers, though she does provide 100% of my anecdotal evidence about mirrorless customers. I suspect there could be insights to be gleaned from this encounter anyway.

I then proceeded to buy the 16-35mm f/4 I had been looking at.


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 30, 2018)

Sounds like a typical box store salesman encounter.


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## Talys (Jun 30, 2018)

stevelee said:


> I was looking at lenses at Best Buy yesterday... She decided to do some more reading and come back...
> 
> I then proceeded to buy the 16-35mm f/4 I had been looking at.



Except that it usually isn't best buy, because their camera department sucks here, this is parallels my experience every other time I go to a camera store. Well ok, I don't have a car full of 16-35's 



> She said that she had too many cameras and barely used most of them.



The myth is that a full frame mirrorless will do what the many other cameras could not: "this will help me take more pictures".

The reason people who have a whole bunch of cameras that they barely use are in that situation is that they see amazing photography in magazines and online, yet their photos fall far short of that. They refuse to accept that mirrorless or not, they're still not going to take amazing photographs, if they're not willing to climb a pretty steep learning curve, and take a lot of not-amazing photographs in the process. Watching 4 minute YouTubes of 10 simple things that will magically improve your photography doesn't count.

But for the camera manufacturers and the camera stores, this is a core customer set: the person who will come back and buy stuff hoping that the product hype will be their reality _this_ time. Really, she should go back and look a the amazing photos that Canon said were taken with a t3i. Wow, those looked good!

No doubt, many of these people will buy a mirrorless camera, though let's be real: it's not like APSC mirrorless camera's haven't been around for years, and a lot of them aren't going to fork out $2,500 for another kick at the can. Still it's something to try.

In truth, anyone who has a bunch of cameras they barely use and is disappointed with their short stints at photography, would probably be happier with a much simpler device than the menu and configuration hell that is a Sony FF ILC. They'd probably be even happier if they didn't have to change lenses or lug camera gear, or set stuff on the camera at all. A multilens smartphone comes to mind as something that would be great for their trip to Japan, because they'll always have it on them, and although they might not shoot the next Vanity Fair or National Geographic cover, the photos they take will be in-focus shots of great memories, and more importantly, they'll take a lot more of them.


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## stevelee (Jun 30, 2018)

Talys said:


> The myth is that a full frame mirrorless will do what the many other cameras could not: "this will help me take more pictures".
> 
> The reason people who have a whole bunch of cameras that they barely use are in that situation is that they see amazing photography in magazines and online, yet their photos fall far short of that. They refuse to accept that mirrorless or not, they're still not going to take amazing photographs, if they're not willing to climb a pretty steep learning curve, and take a lot of not-amazing photographs in the process. Watching 4 minute YouTubes of 10 simple things that will magically improve your photography doesn't count.
> 
> But for the camera manufacturers and the camera stores, this is a core customer set: the person who will come back and buy stuff hoping that the product hype will be their reality _this_ time. Really, she should go back and look a the amazing photos that Canon said were taken with a t3i. Wow, those looked good!



Well, I have taken rather amazing photos with my T3i. Some of my best pictures ever were made in the 1960s with a Yashica rangefinder camera with a 45mm lens.

When I travel, I take my G7X II and leave my DSLRs and lenses at home. 13" x 19" prints from those trips grace the walls of my house. If I were advising her, I would suggest that camera or something similar, maybe one of the higher, but less pocketable, G models in her case.

My experiences with the camera department at this particular Best Buy have been very positive, more so than in any "real" camera store I have been in since 1975, say, or in other departments at Best Buy. They have people who shoot the brands they specialize in. Like my guy did, they defer to others in the department who know more about something than they do. He had sold me the 6D2 last year, and came over to ask how I was doing with it. Before the lady came over, that is what we were talking about. From comments here and in reviews, I had already planned to buy the 16-35mm f/4 around October unless some reason not to came along. After our conversation, I couldn't think of a good reason to wait. One of the reasons I stopped was to see if they had been able to maintain the department. Ladies with way too many cameras they don't use may help sustain it, to my benefit.

After my purchase, we talked about his advancing photography career and specifically about shooting interiors, since I was buying a SWA and he is getting a realtor for a client, and I had mentioned that I had done some work like that for friends in the business.


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## Durf (Jun 30, 2018)

stevelee said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > The myth is that a full frame mirrorless will do what the many other cameras could not: "this will help me take more pictures".
> ...



You're gonna love that 16-35 f/4L Lens, I use mine for landscape and also for all my home interior cabinet shots. (I own a custom cabinet shop). I use it on a 6D2 always.

I usually have to use a tripod in homes doing interior cabinetry images to get the best results because of dim lighting. Flash or bright lights always show a glare on my cabinet finishes so most are done with natural light (slow shutter speeds at f4 to f8). My copy is razor sharp right at f4 and pretty much right to f16. (all the way to the corners).

Awesome lens!


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## Talys (Jun 30, 2018)

stevelee said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > The myth is that a full frame mirrorless will do what the many other cameras could not: "this will help me take more pictures".
> ...




This is exactly my point. The lady with the closet full of cameras could pull any one of them out, and if she wanted to improve her photography, she could take spectacular photos with any of them. When I need to take many angle shots of multiple products, I might even have a t2i out (because it's much easier to take 5 shots of 30 products, if you have 5 cameras all on tripods that don't move), and guess what? Nobody can tell the difference with 3500x3500 pixel photos, which is the largest anyone ever wants from me.

That she hardly uses them has nothing to do with whether it's a Sony or Canon or Mirrorless or DSLR -- though it will most certainly benefit the Best Buy for her to buy a Sony mirrorless 

The problem with Best Buy in West Coast Canada is that they don't really sell much current stuff. Their bodies are all 1-2 generations old, and largely kitted with consumer lenses. So, if you want a t5i with an older 55-250, you can probably get a great bundle. But if you're going to spend money on a new camera, you might as well get something newer at about the same price... or go to Costco, where something older will be bundled with an extra lens or something. In terms of "stuff I want", our Best Buy just doesn't have it. Like, they won't even have a 16-35/4 or 2.8 (though they could order it). But they certainly won't have good tripods, good light stands, rolls of paper, softboxes, Rogue products, reflectors, or anything like that, which I actually need on an ongoing basis (since the stuff gets consumed or worn out or damaged) -- and very rarely stuff like Peak Design or ThinkTank bags, which I enjoy looking at.


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## ehouli (Jun 30, 2018)

It's about time that Canon releases an APS-C body without the Anti-aliasing Filter. In Canon's FF cameras it doesn't bother me, since is sharp enough but in APS-C, or at least on the 7D series the images are really mushy, unless you take them very close.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 30, 2018)

ehouli said:


> It's about time that Canon releases an APS-C body without the Anti-aliasing Filter. In Canon's FF cameras it doesn't bother me, since is sharp enough but in APS-C, or at least on the 7D series the images are really mushy, unless you take them very close.



Appropriate sharpening can help significantly.


----------



## stevelee (Jun 30, 2018)

Durf said:


> You're gonna love that 16-35 f/4L Lens, I use mine for landscape and also for all my home interior cabinet shots. (I own a custom cabinet shop). I use it on a 6D2 always.
> 
> I usually have to use a tripod in homes doing interior cabinetry images to get the best results because of dim lighting. Flash or bright lights always show a glare on my cabinet finishes so most are done with natural light (slow shutter speeds at f4 to f8). My copy is razor sharp right at f4 and pretty much right to f16. (all the way to the corners).
> 
> Awesome lens!



Thanks. 

A good thing about photographing interiors in my neighborhood is that the houses all have open and light designs, so available light from the windows has been enough for the projects I did. It gives everything a natural look without working at it. Perhaps I warmed the colors a bit in ACR to look closer to how they appear in person.


----------



## AlanF (Jul 1, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> ehouli said:
> 
> 
> > It's about time that Canon releases an APS-C body without the Anti-aliasing Filter. In Canon's FF cameras it doesn't bother me, since is sharp enough but in APS-C, or at least on the 7D series the images are really mushy, unless you take them very close.
> ...



A crop from the 5DSR is just so much better than the same size from the 7DII that I sold mine. If you are using the full image from the 7DII or are not cropping much, it’s fine. But, if you do need to crop the image severely, the AA-filter loses detail. Sharpening does improve the acutance but it doesn’t restore lost detail.


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 1, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > But the disruption *is* the slow decline
> ...



Neuro, you have no idea how much I enjoy reading your stuff. Please, never go away. Even if I were on the receiving end I'd have no choice but to laugh. ;D


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 1, 2018)

amorse said:


> "...it is often interpreted as "Canon needs to step up their game _if they're going to survive_



Interpreted as? Actually, there are people here who say just that. They've been saying exactly that for years. They are a known quantity here. There's no problem with saying it. The problem many have with them is that they continuously say they are going to "jump ship" and then stick around for years on end saying the same old thing. In other words they say it, but don't mean it. That is what annoys some. One has to wonder who the real fanboys are. Are they the happy customers? Or are the true fanboys the miserable wretches that keep hanging on even when they are so miserable. I vote for the latter. Those are the real fanboys... if "fanboy" is a derogatory term.


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Jul 1, 2018)

robotfist said:


> I envy the sharpness, the latitude, the stabilization, the light sensitivity and the lighter form factors of the Sonys.



If you can't take _stellar_ images with the Canon gear you've got now - it's not the gear's fault.



> I’ll be selling everything come November and switching to Sony if they don’t step up their game



Nobody here really cares about what you might or might not do...


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Jul 1, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> If people are overthinking the importance of mirrorless, why has Canon itself stated that they will push into this market? Also, an interesting- and yet dubious- point.



Simply - and _only_ - because _it's a market_, and one whichg Canon is bound to be interested in. Not because of any intrinsic "importance" of mirrorless as a technology.


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Jul 1, 2018)

dak723 said:


> Yes, alas, it is all about clicks. I don't know how many times I click the "Report to Moderator" button to report trolls and posts that do nothing but insult users. Nothing ever happens.



Oh, it does: if you respond like-for-like to the trolls, Admin gives _you_ a kick up the arse...


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Jul 1, 2018)

ashmadux said:


> Its entertaining (NOT) to read every response to
> 
> _"Canon needs to step thier game up.."_
> 
> ...



It's not remotely juvenile _taken in the context of the asinine comments this fact is rolled out to addresss.._


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Jul 1, 2018)

ashmadux said:


> Says a lot about me? Riiiiiiight Neero.
> 
> _*"BUT LOOK AT THE SALES!"*_
> 
> _- Neero., The Common 'Always Correct' Comment Section Irritant_



You can continue to b1tch about the answer (_clearly_ you can) but it's no less true just because it's often repeated.

Tell you what - tell us why it's _not_ a good answer to the interminable "Canon is ******* if..." posts...


----------



## scyrene (Jul 1, 2018)

ehouli said:


> unless you take them very close.



What does this mean?


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Jul 1, 2018)

Talys said:


> The people looking for amazing, revolutionary camera releases and are constantly disappointed by "joke" launches can be divided into two types: those in search of technological improvements to improve photography, and those who are more interested in technology than photography.



Or, there's a third - heavily populated, and well-represented here - group: talentless hacks who can't take a good photograph for love or money, who have fooled themselves into thinking that some sort of as yet uninvented miracle camera will suddenly turn them into photographic gods...


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Jul 1, 2018)

ehouli said:


> h but in APS-C, or at least on the 7D series the images are really mushy, unless you take them very close.



100% User error.

http://www.capture-the-moment.co.uk/tp/reports/time-for-the-farnes-again

All with my 7D Mk II. 

Soft and mushy, my arse.


----------



## ehouli (Jul 1, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> ehouli said:
> 
> 
> > It's about time that Canon releases an APS-C body without the Anti-aliasing Filter. In Canon's FF cameras it doesn't bother me, since is sharp enough but in APS-C, or at least on the 7D series the images are really mushy, unless you take them very close.
> ...



Hmmmm no, I don't think so, here are two samples I just did yesterday, one with the 7D II and one with 5D III, and I'm still amazed at what the 5D III can do. Both shots done with the 400mm f/4 DO Mk II and 2x TC Mk III. Even the 5D mk III seems to make a better light reading when in AV mode.

Both shots have no Sharpening other than the standard applied by Lightroom Classic CC. Just adjusted through dehaze, clarity, some saturation and color profile created for each camera.

7D II:

https://flic.kr/p/27BK6Vy

Crop:

https://flic.kr/p/27BKAjC

5D III:

https://flic.kr/p/LzqNzo

Crop:

https://flic.kr/p/27BKx4u

To me it seems that under some critical circumstances diffraction makes it really hard to get a sharp image with the 7D II. Let alone the AF that's also a long story :-X



Keith_Reeder said:


> ehouli said:
> 
> 
> > h but in APS-C, or at least on the 7D series the images are really mushy, unless you take them very close.
> ...



Really? that's the same answer over and over again that canon fans give. Save your arse BTW.


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Jul 1, 2018)

AlanF said:


> If you are using the full image from the 7DII or are not cropping much, it’s fine. But, if you do need to crop the image severely, the AA-filter loses detail. Sharpening does improve the acutance but it doesn’t restore lost detail.



c. 60% crop:
http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/170518/yh4.jpg

About 50%:
http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/050518/PN_IMG_5300_1_aff.jpg

50% again:
http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/180318/PN_IMG_4503_1_aff.jpg


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 1, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> ehouli said:
> 
> 
> > h but in APS-C, or at least on the 7D series the images are really mushy, unless you take them very close.
> ...



Very nice photos, Keith. Of course, you are correct. One cannot buy or spec their way into the "great photo" club. It actually takes some skill. You have it.


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Jul 1, 2018)

ehouli said:


> Really? that's the same answer over and over again that canon fans give. Save your arse BTW.



Yeah, _really_. I also shoot aircraft (http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/gnfi/gnfi_005.jpg, http://www.kazemisu.me.uk/images/ncl_270713/catalina_NCL_1.jpg, http://www.kazemisu.me.uk/images/ncl_270713/lancaster_NCL_BW_5.jpg), and your 7D Mk II examples are just utterly unrepresentative of what I get as a matter of routine.

These are very low shutter speeds, too - the Exif is in the images, something notably lacking in your "proof".

So unless you can rule out shutter speed problems, the wrong AF mode, atmospheric conditions, a dodgy lens, or a need for AFMA, user error it is...


----------



## ehouli (Jul 1, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> AlanF said:
> 
> 
> > If you are using the full image from the 7DII or are not cropping much, it’s fine. But, if you do need to crop the image severely, the AA-filter loses detail. Sharpening does improve the acutance but it doesn’t restore lost detail.
> ...



Of course I've got some too but I have to be 4 - 6 mts away and no Teleconverter:

https://flic.kr/p/G4qx1M

But the amount of sharpening and noise reduction needs more work than with the 5D III.


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 1, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> ehouli said:
> 
> 
> > h but in APS-C, or at least on the 7D series the images are really mushy, unless you take them very close.
> ...



What lenses did you use, Keith? I am going there next weekend.


----------



## Durf (Jul 1, 2018)

Beautiful images Keith, simply stunning!!!! You make that 7D2 speak loudly!!!!!

I see you are using ACDSee Pro, I may have to look in to that as ON1 is really buggy and becoming less enjoyable to use lately....


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 1, 2018)

ehouli said:


> But the amount of sharpening and noise reduction needs more work than with the 5D III.



Of course it does, the 7D sensor is smaller and the pixel density is higher. And as Keith pointed out, AFMA, shutter speed, etc., need to be ruled out as causes of sharpness loss.


----------



## AlanF (Jul 1, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> AlanF said:
> 
> 
> > If you are using the full image from the 7DII or are not cropping much, it’s fine. But, if you do need to crop the image severely, the AA-filter loses detail. Sharpening does improve the acutance but it doesn’t restore lost detail.
> ...



I am not saying you can't get great images with the 7DII. It was my workhorse for a couple of years and I had some great shots with it if which I am proud and really loved it. The 5DSR without the AA-filter is even better. What it means in practice is that you have to be about 10-15% closer with the 7DII to capture the same detail as you would with a 5DSR.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jul 1, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> http://www.capture-the-moment.co.uk/tp/reports/time-for-the-farnes-again
> 
> All with my 7D Mk II.



Excellent work. I love the puffins 



Keith_Reeder said:


> Soft and mushy, my arse.



Squats can help with that ;D


----------



## Talys (Jul 1, 2018)

Well, neuro finally got the better of Talys 



My friends, I had a stroke yesterday and was rushed to the emergency neuro surgical center for a craniotomy. So that is definitely neuro 1 talys 0 

These guys are great here at the royal columbiann.soi I wil back up to no good on my camera and these forums soon enough. Love you all!

And the mistakes have nothing to do with brain surgery and everything to do
with junk android keyboard!

Android autocorrect = Sony autofocus. Miss you guys so much. Look forward to Harry inventing cold fusion by the time I'm out. 

Ps could not take the attached photo in canondslr or milc lol


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 2, 2018)

Talys, very sorry to hear that! All my best wishes for a speedy recovery and rehab!


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 2, 2018)

Talys said:


> Well, neuro finally got the better of Talys
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good luck, Talys.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jul 2, 2018)

Oh wow, best wishes for a swift recovery.


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## fullstop (Jul 2, 2018)

@Talys - very sorry to hear and best wishes from me too. hope to read better news from you soon!


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## ahsanford (Jul 2, 2018)

Talys said:


> My friends, I had a stroke yesterday and was rushed to the emergency neuro surgical center for a craniotomy.



Goodness, I am so sorry to hear that. Here's hoping for a smooth operation and a speedy recovery.

- A


----------



## Quirkz (Jul 2, 2018)

Talys said:


> My friends, I had a stroke yesterday and was rushed to the emergency neuro surgical center for a craniotomy. So that is definitely neuro 1 talys 0



Glad to hear you retaining your sense of humor in difficult times! Swift recovery and keep us posted on when you’re back behind the camera!


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 2, 2018)

Best Wishes Talys!


----------



## transpo1 (Jul 2, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > But the disruption *is* the slow decline
> ...



So the New England Patriots, eh? Maybe cheating for the win? Interesting analogy  (And this comes from a former MA resident, by the way, so I'm all for New England teams.)

As for market dynamics, I know it's hard to ignore common sense- but I have to compliment you because you do it so well. Defending Canon's (past) strategy and the notion that the market is *not* changing in such an emotional way is an staggering feat.

I'd encourage you to take a good, long look at your own profile, though- please note that there is an M6 on it. I'd wager that if the M6 MILC you own wasn't available, you would have eventually bought a different small body camera, perhaps an SL2- in other words, a DSLR.

Now, I know you'll protest this profusely, because you don't want to be wrong, but everyone else here will realize that if MILCs weren't available, you may have just bought another (smaller) DSLR.

Now, imagine you're a first-time camera buyer and you walk into B&H. You look at a Canon Rebel but the salesman steers you towards the M50 because you say you want to do video and you buy it. +1 MILC -1 DSLRs. That is called disruption. 

By the way, Canon focusing more on MILCs- using resources that could be focused elsewhere- and being willing to cannibalize their DSLRs- that is also called disruption- disrupting your business. Every MILC Canon sells is money that may have been spent on one of their DSLRs. Every engineer that is pulled from an existing DSLR team to work on a FF mirrorless? Disruption. This is common sense.

Truly, I am staggered by the business acumen you've displayed.

Along with the aforementioned Asia #s, which I hope you'll eventually take a look at, you'll see the market increases for MILC, and see there are many more people like you, who would have bought a DSLR if not for mirrorless. 

The markets can co-exist, but as that Canon executive noted, there has been and will be cannibalization- it's unavoidable.

And as noted above, it's common sense. 

Happy 4th!


----------



## zim (Jul 2, 2018)

Talys said:


> My friends, I had a stroke yesterday and was rushed to the emergency neuro surgical center for a craniotomy. So that is definitely neuro 1 talys 0



So sorry to hear that, hope your road to recovery is short and smooth, you have your sense of humour always a great help.

Regards


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 2, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Now, imagine you're a first-time camera buyer and you walk into B&H. You look at a Canon Rebel but the salesman steers you towards the M50 because you say you want to do video and you buy it. +1 MILC -1 DSLRs. That is called disruption.



Nope. It is called competition.



transpo1 said:


> By the way, Canon focusing more on MILCs- using resources that could be focused elsewhere- and being willing to cannibalize their DSLRs- that is also called disruption- disrupting your business. Every MILC Canon sells is money that may have been spent on one of their DSLRs. Every engineer that is pulled from an existing DSLR team to work on a FF mirrorless? Disruption. This is common sense.


Not disruption, it is called widening your product base. 
I saw a documentary years ago about marketing and they pointed out that (here in Europe)the top 3 (or was it 4) washing powders were all made by the same mega conglomerate company, even the one that was deliberately made to look like it was a cheap independent manufacturer. 
What you are describing is not new. They have merely put a new word on it and called it 'disruption' to make it sound technical and woolly and appealing. And you have fallen for it.

To paraphrase your own words...Truly, I am staggered by the business acumen you've displayed...or lack of it.



transpo1 said:


> Along with the aforementioned Asia #s, which I hope you'll eventually take a look at, you'll see the market increases for MILC, and see there are many more people like you, who would have bought a DSLR if not for mirrorless.
> The markets can co-exist, but as that Canon executive noted, there has been and will be cannibalization- it's unavoidable.



That is called filling a need in a changing market. Common business sense - I don't know why you are making such a big thing about it. 
In fact, Canon is one of the top 2 MILC manufacturers so they are clearly doing it right and clearly know what the market needs. For the last 7 years, predictions of Canon's downfall have repeatedly been shown to be wrong.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 3, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> As for market dynamics, I know it's hard to ignore common sense- but I have to compliment you because you do it so well. Defending Canon's (past) strategy and the notion that the market is *not* changing in such an emotional way is an staggering feat.



Please point out where I stated the market isn't changing. Actually, that's a completely rhetorical request...you can't, because I haven't. It seems you believe that any change in a market equates to a disruption. That not accurate, it's just a figment of your imaginary business acumen. Perhaps a definition would help:



Investopedia]
[i]Market disruption is a situation where markets cease to function in a regular manner said:


> I'd encourage you to take a good, long look at your own profile, though- please note that there is an M6 on it. I'd wager that if the M6 MILC you own wasn't available, you would have eventually bought a different small body camera, perhaps an SL2- in other words, a DSLR.
> 
> Now, I know you'll protest this profusely, because you don't want to be wrong, but everyone else here will realize that if MILCs weren't available, you may have just bought another (smaller) DSLR.



In fact, I'd have kept using the high-end P&S cameras I had been using (and upgrading as new models came out) until the EOS M came along. But if it makes you feel better to believe something untrue, you go right ahead...as you've amply demonstrated, believing untrue things is firmly in your wheelhouse. 




transpo1 said:


> Now, imagine you're a first-time camera buyer and you walk into B&H. You look at a Canon Rebel but the salesman steers you towards the M50 because you say you want to do video and you buy it. +1 MILC -1 DSLRs. That is called disruption.
> 
> By the way, Canon focusing more on MILCs- using resources that could be focused elsewhere- and being willing to cannibalize their DSLRs- that is also called disruption- disrupting your business. Every MILC Canon sells is money that may have been spent on one of their DSLRs. Every engineer that is pulled from an existing DSLR team to work on a FF mirrorless? Disruption. This is common sense.



The market data are clearly showing slow changes. Canon is slowly changing their product lineup to tap another part of the market, and started doing so when it became worth their while. They're doing it by adding MILCs while _expanding_ their DSLR offerings. But thanks for demonstrating by your complete lack of it that common sense isn't all that common.




transpo1 said:


> Truly, I am staggered by the business acumen you've displayed.



I'm sure you are...but apparently not staggered enough to actually learn something. I was wrong earlier, this is not like the Patriots playing 5 year-olds...after all, the kids might get lucky. This is as challenging as shooting fish in a barrel...with a grenade launcher.


----------



## unfocused (Jul 3, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> ...Now, imagine you're a first-time camera buyer and you walk into B&H. You look at a Canon Rebel but the salesman steers you towards the M50 because you say you want to do video and you buy it. +1 MILC -1 DSLRs. That is called disruption...



But I really did just buy an SL2. So, I guess that means +1 DLSR and -1 MILC. Which by your logic means that the SL2 is totally disrupting the MILC market.

This is asinine. Clearly you learned a really cool word "disruption," but as Neuro and others have pointed out, you have no idea what it means and instead of just acknowledging you were wrong, you are doubling down on your wrong-ness.


----------



## stevelee (Jul 3, 2018)

I think it was a George Gobel movie in which his secretary learned a new vocabulary word each day from a feature in the newspaper. She would use the word over and over during the day, each time meaning something completely different, having no relationship with the meaning of the word.


----------



## AlanF (Jul 3, 2018)

Talys said:


> My friends, I had a stroke yesterday and was rushed to the emergency neuro surgical center for a craniotomy. So that is definitely neuro 1 talys 0


Get well soon, Phil!


----------



## fullstop (Jul 3, 2018)

in this forum "semantics nitpicking" is very important, unfortunately.

i think, "disruptive" is interpreted by some/many here as "immediate, short-term, massive change", such as "mirrorless cameras bring DSLR sales to a screeching halt". or "Canon bankrupt as market demand for Mirrorslappers has dropped to zero within 6 months". 

evidently, this has not happened, so there is "no disruption visible anywhere to Canon/mirrorslapper "defenders". 

of course this perception/interpretation does not preclude to realize in retrospect (!) that "within only a short few years mirrorless caneras have fully replaced previously dominant DSLRs" ir even "due to the massive market disruption caused by the move to mirrorless cameras, some camera makers not able to adapt fast enough, went out of business". while there are more prominent candidates for that like Ricoh (Pentax) or Nikon, Canon certainly is not "untouchably safe". they are late to market with mirrorless and are paying a price for it. every Sony or Fuji mirrorless camera and lens (!) sold, could have been Canon cameras and lenses. transition from film to digital cameras has not happened overnight either. yet it has killed Kodak and - in retrospect - can only be viewed as "truly disruptive". or the transition of music on physical media - decades of schellacks, decades of vinyl LPs, 15 years of CDs, to a few years of "downloads" and now a very few years of "streaming" - all those transitions were experienced as multi-year "slow" at the time, but "rapid and disruptive" in retrospect. and they have caused massive "disruptions" for many companies and rhe entire "entertainment/content" industry. as a little example just read up on Sony DADC and the fate of their plants ... fairly disruptive. 

canon has been spared really big trouble until now not least due to their good luck that both Sony and Fuji have not played their mirrorless cards very well". they made bad mistakes and therefore failed to grab a much larger share of the market quickly. fuji: aps-c only and irrelevant numbers "pseudo mf" + retro design + high prices; sony: neglect of aps-c lens lineup and bodies, nothing new since A6500 and A5100, poor choice of lens mount for FF, FE lens lineup too skewed towards hi-end, big, very expensive lenses with performance at best on par with less expensive Canon/Nikon lenses. and mirrorless mFT makers oly, panasonic are hanging in the ropes. some video tricks, but that will not save them much longer. sensor too small relative to size and price of gear. oly certainly appears to be deep in the corporate danger zone.

the mirrorless writing is on the wall, even if many cannot see or read it or are in denial. "mene mene tekel u-parsin" may well translate as "slap, slap, too big, too fat" 







(c) Rembrandt, 1635


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 3, 2018)

"Why it's time to retire 'disruption', Silicon Valley's emptiest buzzword"

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/11/disruption-silicon-valleys-buzzword


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Canon certainly is not "untouchably safe". they are late to market with mirrorless and are paying a price for it.



Is that why they are the top 2 (interchangeably with Olympus) while Sony are 3rd?



fullstop said:


> canon has been spared really big trouble until now not least due to their good luck that both Sony and Fuji have not played their mirrorless cards very well".


So what you are saying is that the other manufacturers are also late to the market with practical implementations of mirrorless technology. 
Which means that everyone is late to the market. 
Which means Canon is on a par with everyone else.
So Canon is not late at all.

Easy, really.


----------



## AlanF (Jul 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> in this forum "semantics nitpicking" is very important, unfortunately.
> 
> i think, "disruptive" is interpreted by some/many here as "immediate, short-term, massive change", such as "mirrorless cameras bring DSLR sales to a screeching halt". or "Canon bankrupt as market demand for Mirrorslappers has dropped to zero within 6 months".
> 
> ...


The translation is: "Thou art weighed in the balances, and found wanting"; "Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians" (Daniel 5:27). You can interpret that as your fancy takes you as to whom and what is weighed and the modern corporations equivalent to Medes and Persians.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> they are late to market with mirrorless and are paying a price for it. every Sony or Fuji mirrorless camera and lens (!) sold, could have been Canon cameras and lenses.



Since the introduction of MILCs to the market, Canon has moved from ~44% ILC market share to ~50%. That is fact. That is reality. Your speculation about sales they _might_ have had is just that...speculation. Not fact. Not reality. 

They haven't 'paid a price' for anything...they've gained.


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 3, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > they are late to market with mirrorless and are paying a price for it. every Sony or Fuji mirrorless camera and lens (!) sold, could have been Canon cameras and lenses.
> ...


Of course, the opposite view is that every Canon sold could have been a Sony sale. So why are Canon taking MILC market share from Sony?


----------



## kkamena (Jul 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> in this forum "semantics nitpicking" is very important, unfortunately.
> 
> transition from film to digital cameras has not happened overnight either. yet it has killed Kodak and - in retrospect - can only be viewed as "truly disruptive". or the transition of music on physical media - decades of schellacks, decades of vinyl LPs, 15 years of CDs, to a few years of "downloads" and now a very few years of "streaming" - all those transitions were experienced as multi-year "slow" at the time, but "rapid and disruptive" in retrospect. and they have caused massive "disruptions" for many companies and rhe entire "entertainment/content" industry. as a little example just read up on Sony DADC and the fate of their plants ... fairly disruptive.



The transition from Film to digital was not disruptive to camera manufactures only film manufactures. Kodak did try to respond to the disruption only the market rejected its solutions. As stated before the only major disruption to the camera industry was when they started to put cameras on cell phones. Markets change and technology evolves, none of that means a disruption has taken place. The examples you gave where recognized as disruptions when they happened. 

Before the 5DS the internet said Canon was ******* and could not compete with Nikon in resolution. Canon updated its lenses so when it put out a high resolution camera the whole system could be used effectively. 

Companies go out of business for lots or reasons. Nikon will soon join the list and the reason it will is because of (1) lack of diversification, Something Canon is doing very well right. (2) Contracting out its core business operations to a competitor, and (3) bad market strategy. Sony has to put out higher spec'ed cameras at cheaper prices than Canon otherwise it would have no market share, Canon is in a position strength (this may not always be the case in the future, however all data shows this is the current market situation). Assuming that Sony does not have a huge strategic advantage over other brands in cost to manufacture, then it is intentionally making less money on camera sales now to hopefully make more profit on future purchases (eg future Camera sales, accessories like their over priced lenses). "Buying in" is a common business strategy for new market entries or lower performing companies attempting to take market share. Nikon took the bait but can not maintain a profit and does not have another major business unit to cover for its losses. if the 850 fails then Nikon has very real problems. 

When Nikon goes out of Business it will not be because of "disruption" but because of poor business decisions. Canon is no where near going out of business or leaving the Camera market. So all the talk of Canon is ******* is from people who really have no idea what they are talking about. 

One thing Canon is doing is trying to grow the entry level ILC Market. No other company is doing this as well as Canon. So you should be thanking them, as stated before Most Camera buyers want a nice Camera and do not take a lot of pictures. As anecdotal evidence most people I know think the Rebel line is a "Pro" Camera. Canon has done a great job putting Rebels in the hands of as many people as possible.


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## fullstop (Jul 3, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Since the introduction of MILCs to the market, Canon has moved from ~44% ILC market share to ~50%. That is fact. That is reality.



50% of a smaller ILC market vs. 44%of a larger market, still a loss in absolute terms. Units and revenue. 

And Canon could be at 75%+ market share today [their 50% plus all of Sony's and all of Fuji's [and maybe up to half of Nikon's too], had they stopped Sony and Fuji dead in their mirrorless tracks right away by bringing out decent mirrorless cameras with APS-C and FF sensors 5 years ago. Hypothetical, since Canon failed to do that, but nevertheless a well-founded scenario.


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## BillB (Jul 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Since the introduction of MILCs to the market, Canon has moved from ~44% ILC market share to ~50%. That is fact. That is reality.
> ...



Is there a point here that you are trying to make?


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Since the introduction of MILCs to the market, Canon has moved from ~44% ILC market share to ~50%. That is fact. That is reality.
> ...



Fullstop is dead on. If Canon offered everything to everyone, Canon would have more market share.

They'd also be broke. 

- A


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Hey, an almost perfect record of negative profit margin works for TSLA


----------



## Talys (Jul 3, 2018)

BillB said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



If only Canon would hire Dr. Fullstop as Chief executive, their marketshare would exceed 100%


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Since the introduction of MILCs to the market, Canon has moved from ~44% ILC market share to ~50%. That is fact. That is reality.
> ...



Yes, the market has declined. That's smartphone impact. Are you suggesting that Canon shifting to/adding MILCs would have stemmed the ILC market decline? Ridiculous. 







A well-founded scenario, indeed… :


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## ahsanford (Jul 3, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yes, the market has declined. That's smartphone impact. Are you suggesting that Canon shifting to/adding MILCs would have stemmed the ILC market decline?



Canon could stop rising sea levels if they just build more cameras that AvTvM wanted. 

- A


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## BillB (Jul 3, 2018)

We have gone from prophecy that the mirrorless world is at hand to proclamation that Canon flubbed its chance to rule the mirrorless world five years ago. We find out fairly quickly whether the mirrorless world was in fact at hand. However, a true believer can continue forever to believe that Canon blew its big mirrorless chance. Not that I feel any need to convince anyone differently.


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## BillB (Jul 3, 2018)

Actually, Canon did not miss a chance with mirrorless technology, it made a choice. The choice was to use dual pixel technology and take the time needed to develop it.


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## ahsanford (Jul 3, 2018)

BillB said:


> Actually, Canon did not miss a chance with mirrorless technology, it made a choice. The choice was to use dual pixel technology and take the time needed to develop it.



DPAF was enabling tech, sure, but they didn't exactly wait for it with EOS M. Also, DPAF may have happened without mirrorless happening: it is more of a bedrock 'everything benefits from this' core technology that may have already been in the works to give them a LiveView advantage on SLRs as well.

But I think they made a choice all right: _the choice to let the market mature and define itself_ before making the massive investment and (possible) new mount decision. When mirrorless first broke, it was a zoo -- tiny Olympus PEN cameras, bigger A7 I and A7R I dropping out of the blue, fixed lens (larger sensored) mirrorless rigs, etc. (Remember Nikon leaping to action with the CX sensor?)

Remember -- Canon did the same thing before: they came in late with EOS M. There, they thought things through, and then they executed. They will do the same for FF.

- A


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## Mikehit (Jul 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, the market has declined. That's smartphone impact. Are you suggesting that Canon shifting to/adding MILCs would have stemmed the ILC market decline?
> ...



Not so much stop rising sea levels, but if they had done what DialMode says, then they could have built coastal dykes with the unsold Sony cameras and saved the entire world population in low lying islands.


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## BillB (Jul 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> BillB said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, Canon did not miss a chance with mirrorless technology, it made a choice. The choice was to use dual pixel technology and take the time needed to develop it.
> ...



Dual pixel was well into development when Canon rolled out the EOS M, which wasn't exactly received with overwhelming enthusiasm and joy. The M was a step on the way. Actually, a deliberate read and react mirrorless strategy fit very well with the development arc for dual pixel. There has also been a complementary Canon relationship between Liveview and mirrorless. For Sony, junking the mirror and going with an EVF was pretty much the first step. For Canon, getting rid of the mirror will be just about the last step to FF mirrorless.


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## dak723 (Jul 4, 2018)

fullstop said:


> in this forum "semantics nitpicking" is very important, unfortunately.
> 
> i think, "disruptive" is interpreted by some/many here as "immediate, short-term, massive change", such as "mirrorless cameras bring DSLR sales to a screeching halt". or "Canon bankrupt as market demand for Mirrorslappers has dropped to zero within 6 months".
> 
> evidently, this has not happened, so there is "no disruption visible anywhere to Canon/mirrorslapper "defenders".



No, some folks here just know what disruptive means. If folks buy a Mirrorless rather than buy a DSLR it is not only NOT a disruption, it is nothing at all. Cameras are being purchased Camera companies are still making money from the sales.

In other words, mirrorless will never be a disruption in the camera market. Both mirrorless ILCs and DSLR ILCs are the same market. They can't disrupt each other. People are buying cameras and lenses (and other accessories) from the same companies whether the cameras are mirrorless or have mirrors. My guess is that many - if not most - of the folks buying ILC cameras don't care whether the camera has a mirror or not.


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## fullstop (Jul 4, 2018)

dak723 said:


> In other words, mirrorless will never be a disruption in the camera market. Both mirrorless ILCs and DSLR ILCs are the same market. They can't disrupt each other.



sure. Horse-carts and auto-mobiles are the same market. Horse cart market will never be disrupted by cars. 

quite funny to read all those arguments down that line. 

Mirrorslappers will be gone soon, much like the horse carts. At least in the more developed parts of the world. ;D


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 4, 2018)

dak723 said:


> My guess is that many - if not most - of the folks buying ILC cameras don't care whether the camera has a mirror or not.



Probably. The people who care whether there is a mirror is likely a minority subset of the people who know how cameras work, which is a small subset of camera buyers. Granted, dedicated camera buyers are more likely to have some understanding - it's a self-selecting group - however as a general rule, people want to know *that* things work, not *how* things work.


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## fullstop (Jul 4, 2018)

hehe, very funny. 

in reality almost all potential buyers do and will care, if they can get "full (frame sensor) image quality and all of the photographic goodness" in a smaller, lighter and potentially less expensive package than in today's DSLRs. they will care even more, when mirrorless cameras bring additional benefits and possibilities to the table. 

the very same reasons many buyers are chosing mirrorless cameras instead of DSLRs already today. 

i think (speculation) there are many more people with cludgy, heavy, "conspicuous" mirrorslappers [try to go anywhere near a playground with a 5D and L glass and take pictures of your children/grandchildren lol] who would love to downsize their gear to a smaller, lighter form factor while keeping an FF sensor at its core get than those "with big hands" or "shooting with gloves" etc. who prefer "chunky" cameras. 

these people have stopped or will stop buying more "marginally iterated" mirrorslappers. but they may become "current Canon customers" again if they are offered decent mirrorless systems - both with APS-C (smaller size, smaller wallet) and FF sensors (bigger wallet). plus a chance to win younger first-time buyers entering the Canon eco-system. more likely if they dont have to lug around the same big, dorky mirrorslappers their parents were using "in the old days".


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## stevelee (Jul 4, 2018)

Smaller, lighter, cheaper are not likely to apply to FF any time soon from a general consumer point of view. If those are the main criteria, I don’t see much point in interchangeable lenses anyway. Don’t most Rebel owners just use the kit lens, or at least a preponderance of them?

I don’t imagine that being able to brag that your camera doesn’t have a mirror is high on most folks’ priorities.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 4, 2018)

fullstop said:


> dak723 said:
> 
> 
> > In other words, mirrorless will never be a disruption in the camera market. Both mirrorless ILCs and DSLR ILCs are the same market. They can't disrupt each other.
> ...



Did Henry Ford breed/make horses and carts before inventing and selling automobiles? Quite funny but also sad when people so completely miss the point of an argument. 

When Sony sold only DSLRs, they had ~13% ILC market share. Now they've switched entirely to mirrorless...and they have ~13% ILC market share. Disruption?? LOL.


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## fullstop (Jul 4, 2018)

Sony had 13% market share and with their SLTs they'd have fallen through the bottom. So, they launched APS-C and FF mirrorless systems in good time. 

Why Sony has not been able to grab much more market share quickly, is due to 
1. lens lineup - especially FE at beginning, but also lack of decent and affordable E/crop lenses and 
2. lens pricing - problem persists, especially for FE lenses
3. inertia/perceived "lock-in" due to (lens) investment with many Canon / Nikon owners

Given factors 1-3 it is rather remarkable that Sony did manage to grab 13% of ILC market - or whatever it may be today [probably very close to #2]. Thanks to Canon not competing in FF mirrorless yet and Nikon not at all [respectively with D.O.A. dwarf-sensored 1" CX system].


----------



## BillB (Jul 4, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Sony had 13% market share and with their SLTs they'd have fallen through the bottom. So, they launched APS-C and FF mirrorless systems in good time.
> 
> Why Sony has not been able to grab much more market share quickly, is due to
> 1. lens lineup - especially FE at beginning, but also lack of decent and affordable E/crop lenses and
> ...



Sony's woes with market share could also have something to do with their limited success with their aps-c models, which opened the door for the Canon M cameras with their EF-M lenses. People may not be in love with big cameras but they aren't in love with expensive cameras either. Compared to an M camera, even $2000 is a lot of money to spend on a FF camera, especially factoring in Sony FF lens prices.


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## fullstop (Jul 4, 2018)

yes, Sony has let its crop mirrorless lineup slip. Nothing new since A6500 (and yes, it is too expensive compared to Canon EOS M range) and especially nothing new in since A5100. Stills shooters willing to spend that kind money on crop-sensored mirrorless [Sony A6500 + good E-mount glass] seem to have turned mostly to Fuji.

People wanting a samll, decent and cheap main or secondary set ... buy EOS M. After initial fumble (EOS M 1st gen + firesale) Canon got EOS M pricing and EF-M lens lineup right. Perfectly targeted at consumers and "second smaller set" buyers.


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 4, 2018)

fullstop said:


> yes, Sony has let its crop mirrorless lineup slip. Nothing new since A6500 (and yes, it is too expensive compared to Canon EOS M range) and especially nothing new in since A5100. Stills shooters willing to spend that kind money on crop-sensored mirrorless [Sony A6500 + good E-mount glass] seem to have turned mostly to Fuji.
> 
> People wanting a samll, decent and cheap main or secondary set ... buy EOS M. After initial fumble (EOS M 1st gen + firesale) Canon got EOS M pricing and EF-M lens lineup right. Perfectly targeted at consumers and "second smaller set" buyers.



So why do you keep on repeating ad nauseam that Canon are late to the market and will be overtaken by Sony when Sony cannot even get a system together (by your own admission)? People are not interested in bodies - they are interested in bodies with a lens attached.


----------



## BillB (Jul 4, 2018)

fullstop said:


> yes, Sony has let its crop mirrorless lineup slip. Nothing new since A6500 (and yes, it is too expensive compared to Canon EOS M range) and especially nothing new in since A5100. Stills shooters willing to spend that kind money on crop-sensored mirrorless [Sony A6500 + good E-mount glass] seem to have turned mostly to Fuji.
> 
> People wanting a samll, decent and cheap main or secondary set ... buy EOS M. After initial fumble (EOS M 1st gen + firesale) Canon got EOS M pricing and EF-M lens lineup right. Perfectly targeted at consumers and "second smaller set" buyers.



I would be very reluctant to recommend a fullframe camera to anyone who isn't interested in printing on A3 paper or maybe even larger, and even then I might well suggest starting with something smaller. The minimum buyin cost for printing A3 using a fullframe camera is something north of $5000, with any kind of lens selection at all. And then there is the investment in time needed to learn how to use that equipment well. This is not pictures of grandchildren in the park territory.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 4, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> So why do you keep on repeating ad nauseam that Canon are late to the market



Because Canon _is_ late...with the camera AvTvM wants.


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## Mikehit (Jul 4, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > So why do you keep on repeating ad nauseam that Canon are late to the market
> ...



Late compared to.....it can't be Sony because they don't make it either.
If it is late compared to his fantasies, then ....well....those won't be fulfilled for decades by anyone.


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## Durf (Jul 4, 2018)

I still think fullstop should change his handle to "FullThrottle"......


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 4, 2018)

fullstop said:


> hehe, very funny.
> 
> in reality almost all potential buyers do and will care, if they can get "full (frame sensor) image quality and all of the photographic goodness" in a smaller, lighter and potentially less expensive package



Yes, that is probably true as well. They would probably also care if the camera came with a pouch of magic beans. But like most camera buyers who can’t explain the difference between CMOS and CCD, most won’t be moved by the presence of a mirror, or lack thereof.


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## BillB (Jul 4, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > hehe, very funny.
> ...



But how many people do care about full frame if they can get even smaller, even lighter and definitely less expensive in an aps-c package? Well, there is the DPR crowd, but....


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## BillB (Jul 4, 2018)

Let's review the bidding. Sony has a weak presence in aps-c, no presence in FF OVF, and owns the FF mirrorless market, but Canon has a couple of FF mirrorless models in the pipeline, which will be based on proven dual pixel Liveview capabilities. Who should be worried? Canon, of course. They are late to market, so they have missed the bus. And their cameras will likely be too big. Betamax anyone?


----------



## fullstop (Jul 4, 2018)

@Mike please read what I wrote, rather than trying to imply things I have not written. 

so one more time my opinion as clearly as i can state it. 

1. Sony has "highly credible" mirrorless camera systems, both with APS-C and FF sensor. The innovativeness and merits of their product lineup are one reason Sony has remained in the [stills imaging] ILC business, after their SLTs clearly failed to attract enough interest. 

2. Canon coming late to the party and only "half-dressed" [no mirrorless FF system] and Nikon coming "with a knife to a gunfight" [Nikon 1/CX] are the other main reason why Sony did manage to capture a decent share of the ILC market, to the point were they are challenging Nikon for #2 spot. 

3. In my opinion (!) Sony's market share could be even better more, if they would offer more/newer APS-C cameras, different APS-C lenses (E-mount) and more FE lenses - targeted at more affordable price points. For APS-C similar to what Canon is doing with their EOS-M and EF-M lens lineup. For FF Sony - in my opinion - made the mistake of using E-mount and the compromises that go with it: lenses bigger than need be, more complex and more expensive than they really should be. The market for lenses priced beyond 1k or even 2k USD/€ is severly limited. Sony has only recently started to add more affordable and decent lens options. More aggressiveness on that front would greatly help Sony's market share. Potential FF MILC buyers are generally smart enough to not only consider price of camera, but also availability and price of lenses they want to go with it.  


TL;DR: Sony is doing well with its stills MILC systems, but they could do even better would they offer more decent and affordable cameras and lenses. CaNikon have made things possible for Sony or at least a lot easier by coming late to the party.


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## Mikehit (Jul 4, 2018)

fullstop said:


> TL;DR: Sony is doing well with its stills MILC systems, but they could do even better would they offer more decent and affordable cameras and lenses. CaNikon have made things possible for Sony or at least a lot easier by coming late to the party.



And Canon's doing even better. So I am not really sure what your point is.

Saying '[Sony] could do even better would they offer more decent and affordable cameras and lenses' is no different to saying '[Canon] could do even better would they offer more decent MILC cameras'.

Fact is Sony have not got more decent and affordable cameras, and no amount of hypothesising is going to change that. So in the real world, Sony have not got a full MILC system. 
Neither have Canon.
So why is Canon 'late' but not Sony? 

At least be consistent in your argument.
This isn't Canon fanboyism, it is pointing out that your criticisms of Canon are based on flawed concepts. As are your analogies.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 4, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Did Henry Ford breed/make horses and carts before inventing and selling automobiles? Quite funny but also sad when people so completely miss the point of an argument.



Maybe not Henry Ford, but the automobile company where a certain Ferdinand Porsche worked for a while was a coachbuilding enterprise. ;D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner-Werke
And other "motor works" also emerged from coach workshops. 

Interestingly Mr. Porsche designed electric cars [with wheel hub motors] at Lohner-Werke around 1900 ... but it did them no good, they were apparently "a bit too far ahead of the times". So being "too innovative" can be a problem for a company, though likely not one that would ever affect Canon. ;D


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## Mikehit (Jul 4, 2018)

fullstop said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Did Henry Ford breed/make horses and carts before inventing and selling automobiles? Quite funny but also sad when people so completely miss the point of an argument.
> ...



You mean despite the fact that it weighed in at (IIRC) nearly 2 tonnes, cost an absolute fortune. 
Maybe petrol had certain advantages which is why petrol became the standard.
Can you point to a reference to their failure being because they were too far ahead of their time? Petrol and electric were developing at about the same time so both were 'ahead of their time'. And the first electric car was developed in the 1830s so it was hardly new.

https://cleantechnica.com/2015/04/26/electric-car-history/



> 1913: Mass production of the Ford Model T on the first modern assembly line deals a strong blow to early-era electric cars, as it brings down the cost of gasoline cars considerably (making electric cars two or even three times more expensive in the coming years). Electric car sales would slowly taper off over the coming years. (Other main factors leading to the demise of electric cars were: cheap Texas oil; a more developed road network and the ability/desire to travel long distances — electric cars typically had driving ranges of 30 to 40 miles (50 to 65 kilometers) and limited charging infrastructure; the electric starter — see above; slower speeds — about 20 mph or 32 km/h; tough economic times during World War I; and the stigma that electric cars are for women.)



Do you ever think these analogies through before posting them?


----------



## stevelee (Jul 4, 2018)

BillB said:


> I would be very reluctant to recommend a fullframe camera to anyone who isn't interested in printing on A3 paper or maybe even larger, and even then I might well suggest starting with something smaller. The minimum buyin cost for printing A3 using a fullframe camera is something north of $5000, with any kind of lens selection at all. And then there is the investment in time needed to learn how to use that equipment well. This is not pictures of grandchildren in the park territory.



I travel with my G7X II, which has a 1" sensor. The sensor area is less than 1/7 that of a FF. I make prints from its photos on 13" x 19" paper, and they look great. I have many of them framed and hanging on the walls of my house right now. So your suggesting "starting with something smaller" can be very good advice. I shoot RAW, process in ACR, and print with eight inks, even so.

And, yes, I do have APS-C and FF cameras and appreciate their benefits.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 4, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> > and the stigma that electric cars are for women.)


THIS is the only bit of information I find interesting in all of your post. What is it about?


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jul 4, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > > and the stigma that electric cars are for women.)
> ...



They didn’t have to be hand-cranked to start.


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 4, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > > and the stigma that electric cars are for women.)
> ...



It is clearly about your inability to hold a logical conversation


----------



## fullstop (Jul 4, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...



HEHEHE!!! Honestly, did not occur to me. LOL.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 5, 2018)

Why do you all reply to this guy? If not a troll, he's certainly a crank. And he loves the attention, which makes him post increasingly ridiculous things. Mute him - if the moderators won't ban him again, then that's the best we can do. 50% of some threads are pointless nonsense from one person, and it's making this forum a much poorer place.


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## jayphotoworks (Jul 5, 2018)

scyrene said:


> Why do you all reply to this guy? If not a troll, he's certainly a crank. And he loves the attention, which makes him post increasingly ridiculous things. Mute him - if the moderators won't ban him again, then that's the best we can do. 50% of some threads are pointless nonsense from one person, and it's making this forum a much poorer place.



Come on.. half of the reason I come here is for the popcorn entertainment. Don't be a party pooper k?


----------



## scyrene (Jul 5, 2018)

jayphotoworks said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you all reply to this guy? If not a troll, he's certainly a crank. And he loves the attention, which makes him post increasingly ridiculous things. Mute him - if the moderators won't ban him again, then that's the best we can do. 50% of some threads are pointless nonsense from one person, and it's making this forum a much poorer place.
> ...



There are limits. If you went to a party where one guy accounted for half the conversation, spouting bull poop and occasionally insulting the other guests, you might ask him to leave. And the party would be better off for it.


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## dak723 (Jul 5, 2018)

Ignore him - and if you get insulted, hit the report to moderator button. But the best thing to do is don't reply - and, in fact, stop posting. As long as the trolls generate a huge number of clicks, the moderators won't do anything. If the number of posts starts dropping considerably, they may take notice.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 5, 2018)

scyrene said:


> 50% of some threads are pointless nonsense from one person...



That’s only because Dilbert has left the building.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 6, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > 50% of some threads are pointless nonsense from one person...
> ...



I almost feel nostalgic for him. Almost.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jul 10, 2018)

robotfist said:


> I am heavily invested in Canon lenses, their DSLRs and their cinema line. I’ve stayed tried and true for years. It’s been hard these past 3 years watching Sony eclipse them with every release. I envy the sharpness, the latitude, the stabilization, the light sensitivity and the lighter form factors of the Sony’s. But I’ve stayed with Canon, patiently waiting for them to catch up, partly because I dig their colors and menus over Sony, but mostly because I don’t want to deal with offloading all this gear. Well, this year is a make it or break it year for me. I won’t wait for Canon any longer. I’ll be selling everything come November and switching to Sony if they don’t step up their game. They need some winners in the mirrorless line. They need a better middle ground camera in their cinema line that can shoot slow motion. Honestly, they need winners on all fronts. They need to be inventive and setting the pace, not following in the wake of their competitors. Time is up. Canon is in third place. Albough their market share or sales may state otherwise, it is my opinion that they are just riding on people like me that are heavily invested in their ecosystem and don’t want to switch. Well that patience doesn’t last forever. Get your ass in gear Canon! Your elderly executives are stuck in their ways and their decisions are slowly choking the company. Innovate and set the trend or go sit in the corner with Kodak, Nokia and Sears.



Yeah, just about every piece of camera gear I purchased from 1986 until recently was Canon, but I finally got sick of their coasting on past laurels BS. I tried for years to warn people that Canon was just gonna deliver blah stuff and that they needing pushing, but got called a troll. When you see how far behind they are on sensors, video, etc. well what did I say all that time? The second that Canon exec said way back when that Canon were the kings of the hill so they didn't need to bother.... you could it was coming to this. It was sad to see what Canon became after all of those decades.

I do still have four Canon lenses and an old 5D3, but I haven't purchased anything from Canon in a few years now I guess. I think the newest item I have is the 24-70 f/2.8L Mark II. I guess I did still get the new wide angle zoom after that but sold it off since. And this from someone who was Canon, Canon, Canon for decades and who was spending thousands on Canon stuff all the time.

I do like their UI better and am not mirrorless crazy so it would be awesome to see Canon somehow change and become the Canon of old, but.... I mean it's been years.


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 10, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > dak723 said:
> ...



I don't know what the point of the argument is, but Henry did not invent the automobile. I believe he invented the assembly line, but not the automobile.


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## RGF (Jul 17, 2018)

My cynical side suspects that Canon feeds half the rumors with contradictory rumors. Keep the excitement going - good hype. At very little cost.

If they do this, then it is a great marking ploy


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## HarryFilm (Jul 24, 2018)

fullstop said:


> dak723 said:
> 
> 
> > In other words, mirrorless will never be a disruption in the camera market. Both mirrorless ILCs and DSLR ILCs are the same market. They can't disrupt each other.
> ...



---

Now back to my "Disruptive Technology" remarks...Canon AND Sony have recently thought long and hard about what markets need to be served and PROFITED from. Canon has IMPRESSIVE consumer lens, industrial optics and chip-making technology in addition to their superb printer/copier division while Sony has nearly undisputed leadership in Television Broadcast Video (XD-Cam) cameras, Playstation systems and still photo/video sensor production for mobile systems.

The TWO largest technologies BOTH companies have now embarked upon (i have VERY VERY detailed and up-close knowledge on this!) is the addition of large Fixed-lens and Interchangeable Lens super-smartphones that will use GLOBAL SHUTTER sensors running at 60 fps DCI 4K (4096x2160) video using 2/3rds Inch, One-Inch or APS-C sensors on said systems. BOTH Sony and Canon are ACTIVELY WORKING ON and TESTING such systems in the lab and in the field RIGHT NOW !!!

Sony xPeria phones and tablets with 1-inch and APS-C sensors are now on tap for introduction mid next year. Canon's offering will be (from my sources) a fixed lens 2/3rd inch sensor and an interchangeable lens APS-C 6.3 inch+ super smartphone! All such phones will be THICKER (between 15mm to 25mm thick) than anything currently from Samsung or Apple to allow for more battery power, longer flange distance and better ergonomics. 

In FIVE YEARS, I expect these large-sensor smart-phones WILL OUTSELL every DSLR and point-and-shoot camera both companies make by VERY WIDE MARGINS !!! The future production technology war will then be fought to bring down the 15-to-25mm thickness of such large-sensor smartphones BACK DOWN to the more common 8mm to 12 mm use by most of today's bigger-selling Samsung S-series and Apple iPhones!

Big Sensors being Stuffed into Thinner Phones will be where the phone wars are fought! And the Five Biggest players will be Sony, Canon, Apple, Samsung and Xiaomi which will be tomorrow's largest FLAGSHIP PHONE makers! Canon has the edge on lens technology while Sony has the edge on Sensor tech. Apple has the Software Ease-of-Use crown so it's gonna be a MASSIVE BATTLE as to who will be ones selling 120 million+ large-sensor smartphones per year!

Which at $800 per high end phone is a GROSS INCOME of 96 BILLION U.S. DOLLARS!!! And at the average FlagShip phone market profit margin of 20%, that is 19.2 BILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR of income...NO manufacturer can afford to dismiss that sort of yearly income! 

At CES 2019 (in January) you will DEFINITELY see some announcements if not outright introductions of such big-sensor super-smartphones! Who will be first? Canon, Sony, Samsung, Apple, Xiaomi? Which One has THE GUTS TO GRAB THE BIG SENSOR SMARTPHONE GLORY ??????????????


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## Mikehit (Jul 24, 2018)

Nothing in that is particularly revelatory. I would be disappointed if those companies were not researching the technologies you describe. In fact read any rumour site and it seems you have merely coalesced them into one post.

Also, do you realise that randomly capitalising words is very distracting and makes it harder to read what you are trying to explain and makes you out as a self-publicising 'look how clever I am' smart alec?


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## HarryFilm (Jul 25, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Nothing in that is particularly revelatory. I would be disappointed if those companies were not researching the technologies you describe. In fact read any rumour site and it seems you have merely coalesced them into one post.
> 
> Also, do you realise that randomly capitalising words is very distracting and makes it harder to read what you are trying to explain and makes you out as a self-publicising 'look how clever I am' smart alec?



---

I can afford to be a smart-alec...I actually DO KNOW MORE about what's coming down the pipeline than you do....re: my recently sold AND VERY CLEVER 444/422 codec which I designed and coded ALL BY MYSELF....re: why a Bell 429 and Knight XV are parked at my hangar.......


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## Mikehit (Jul 25, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing in that is particularly revelatory. I would be disappointed if those companies were not researching the technologies you describe. In fact read any rumour site and it seems you have merely coalesced them into one post.
> ...



And I am guessing your sales agreement includes a confidentiality that you cannot say to whom or for what purpose. How very convenient.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 25, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> why a Bell 429 and Knight XV are parked at my hangar...



Revell? Or Airfix?


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## fullstop (Jul 25, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > why a Bell 429 and Knight XV are parked at my hangar...
> ...



you are really really mean! ;D ;D ;D


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## jeffa4444 (Jul 26, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > dak723 said:
> ...


Apple has some pretty impressive lens, sensor and electronics engineers a few I know and they worked in the motion picture supplier market. They understand codecs ProRes being a great example of that plus through their relationship with ARM they know a lot about low power processors. Add together an ecosystem, styling, their own stores globally and the best EBITDA margins they will not let Canon or anyone else rain on their parade without a fight. Sony supply sensors to Apple latest iPhones any they will want to keep that business because the broader market they supply too would not take kindly to them dumping clients and that part of their business has steadily grown. Canon has a lot of competition in the broadcast lens market and is non-existent in motion picture market. Leica design mobile phone lenses for the Chinese, Zeiss contract design, as does Schneider so Apple would have options if it wanted a "named" lens but knowing Apple it will plough its own furrow.


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## jeffa4444 (Jul 26, 2018)

Lets not forget Red Camera getting into the mobile phone market!


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