# The rest of 2019 for Canon will be about updating dated product lines [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 26, 2019)

> Late 2018 and early 2019 have been pretty busy for Canon, mostly with the launch of the EOS R, EOS RP and 10 new RF mount lenses. It doesn’t look like the 2nd half will be quite as exciting.
> We’re told that the 2nd half of 2019 will be more about updating older product lines and launch some new lines such as the ZV-123 instant print camera.
> This is what we’re told to expect.
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## flip314 (Mar 26, 2019)

More waiting... I'm a bit curious to see what the 80D replacement is, though.


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## -pekr- (Mar 26, 2019)

Hmm, and no new M replacements either?


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## Randywayne (Mar 26, 2019)

I would consider an update to the 80D to be a pretty big announcement. Let's just hope it isn't nothing more than an increase of 2-4mp to the sensor and 1 fps to shooting.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 26, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Hmm, and no new M replacements either?



I've heard absolutely nothing about the EOS M lineup. It makes sense they'd just ride out the M50, it sells really well and doesn't cost a lot.


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## Memirsbrunnr (Mar 26, 2019)

OK now i am confused.. I thought the song was that the 80D and 7D mark II successor would be fused into one..


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 26, 2019)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> OK now i am confused.. I thought the song was that the 80D and 7D mark II successor would be fused



Welcome to rumors.


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## unfocused (Mar 26, 2019)

Randywayne said:


> I would consider an update to the 80D to be a pretty big announcement. Let's just hope it isn't nothing more than an increase of 2-4mp to the sensor and 1 fps to shooting.


I'm curious, other than 4K, what would you be hoping for?


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## [email protected] (Mar 26, 2019)

Randywayne said:


> I would consider an update to the 80D to be a pretty big announcement. Let's just hope it isn't nothing more than an increase of 2-4mp to the sensor and 1 fps to shooting.



Your post above reminds me of the time my very young son opened up a gift while uttering, "I just hope this isn't a sweater." He got a sweater. You're getting a sweater. We're all getting sweaters.


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## Joules (Mar 26, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> I've heard absolutely nothing about the EOS M lineup. It makes sense they'd just ride out the M50, it sells really well and doesn't cost a lot.


What's up with that? I thought this rumor pretty much confirmed we're getting replacements for the M series:









Breaking down the latest Canon gear to appear for certification


This past week we saw an updated list of new and unreleased Canon gear that has appeared for certifications with various agencies around the globe. As always, t



www.canonrumors.com





From all those certified cameras, the EOS R (Edit: meant the RP) was the only one released so far. There's a bunch of M and SLR on that list. Especially the 32 MP 90D sounds really interesting. And you mentioned a rumor about the upcoming 24MP sensors beeing new designs recently. So those M6 and M5 upgrades could be quite interesting as well.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 26, 2019)

Joules said:


> What's up with that? I thought this rumor pretty much confirmed we're getting replacements for the M series:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those certification guesses can change over time. There have also been a few times that a "certified' product never actually gets released.


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## mestes1999 (Mar 26, 2019)

I've been wondering if the faked G7X Mk 3 render that looked so amazing made Canon push back the real one because it looked so boring and incremental compared to the fake design.


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## epiieq1 (Mar 26, 2019)

I'd call the total of 10 lenses launched a "paper" launch a la computer components. Yes, they launched 4 and announced 6, but none of the 6 announced will be available for awhile. Only the 4 launched/announced with the R are available for order (or were for pre-order). They haven't even shown real models to anyone of the next 6 yet, just mock-ups. Yes, the lineup looks awesome, but at this time, that's all it is - "looks". I'm really hoping to see some awesome quality out of these new lenses. This year seems to be more of a "calm before the storm" for Canon, and I'm really hoping that it builds to a raging one rather than something that fizzles out instead of hitting like we hope.


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## LDS (Mar 26, 2019)

mestes1999 said:


> I've been wondering if the faked G7X Mk 3 render that looked so amazing made Canon push back the real one because it looked so boring and incremental compared to the fake design.



It's far easier to create a rendered image when you don't have to care about whatever is inside the shell to create a real product...


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## BrightTiger (Mar 26, 2019)

Not terribly surprised, coupled with CEO Fujio Mitarai's statement regarding their view of the market in the next couple of years. I am waiting on the M5 II (or whatever replaces it) but I've thought about what would make me buy it and frankly there's not a lot other than IBIS or BSI or a variable angle screen that are just must-haves (and even I might need two of those must-haves to reasonably think of paying full price). Mind you I'm talking realistic upgrades, not pie-in-the-sky BS. But that's the world makers and buyers are in - unless there's a breakthrough or they decide to make good with Kasey of Camera Conspiracies, Tony & Chelsea and everyone one of us and deliver a friggin' camera with all of the options that should be on a camera.... there's not a whole lot that's really, really compelling to pay full price. The environment around photography is changing rapidly while the technology is stagnating. The makers are likely going to sit back and ponder their moves towards profitability. And that might mean waiting for the world to figure out if still cameras have major seat at the table or become a 2nd tier citizen to some form of video cams or other media equipment or smartphones simply eat the marketplace.


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## Ozarker (Mar 26, 2019)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> OK now i am confused.. I thought the song was that the 80D and 7D mark II successor would be fused into one..


Wrong radio station.


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## QuisUtDeus (Mar 26, 2019)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> OK now i am confused.. I thought the song was that the 80D and 7D mark II successor would be fused into one..



It's all about points of view. "Merged into one" may mean that the 90D moves upmarket and subsumes the 7D's role, and "no new professional camera" may mean that the 90D doesn't reach the heights of the 7D line, or what Canon (or this source) considers "pro". So it could be that the 90D is released, no 7D3 is ever released, and it's not a "pro" camera. This may mean that the 90D still has tilty-flippy and no joystick, but acquires even more speed and AF prowess.


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## Cryve (Mar 26, 2019)

Im curious, was this rumor from a known or new source?


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## criscokkat (Mar 26, 2019)

QuisUtDeus said:


> It's all about points of view. "Merged into one" may mean that the 90D moves upmarket and subsumes the 7D's role, and "no new professional camera" may mean that the 90D doesn't reach the heights of the 7D line, or what Canon (or this source) considers "pro". So it could be that the 90D is released, no 7D3 is ever released, and it's not a "pro" camera. This may mean that the 90D still has tilty-flippy and no joystick, but acquires even more speed and AF prowess.


I'd be 100% ok with this. Especially if the MP count is making a significant jump too, for better sports cropping.


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## flip314 (Mar 26, 2019)

unfocused said:


> I'm curious, other than 4K, what would you be hoping for?



I'm curious too, the 80D is only 3 years old, and it's not lacking much (other than possibly 4K). Give it a resolution bump, maybe the better AF system from the 7d Mk II, I'm not even sure what else. A few FPS?

The 7d mark ii is 4.5 years old, I wonder if there still is a chance that these lines get merged?


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## ffxx (Mar 26, 2019)

A new cinema camera or a video shooting oriented camera (or both) is the most awesome and hyped news for me since the c200 release.


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## proutprout (Mar 26, 2019)

Canon is finished. Dead. Sony will release a beast in a few month, Apple will release a new iphone with 2x better low light capabilities and insane image computing, and by 2022 Canon will realize they actually need to do something that looks like a professional product. We’re in a world today where we talk Iphone 100MP when canon is releasing the RP without 24 frames per second. They diserve their losses


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## flip314 (Mar 26, 2019)

proutprout said:


> Canon is finished. Dead. Sony will release a beast in a few month, Apple will release a new iphone with 2x better low light capabilities and insane image computing, and by 2022 Canon will realize they actually need to do something that looks like a professional product. We’re in a world today where we talk Iphone 100MP when canon is releasing the RP without 24 frames per second. They diserve their losses



_YAWN_


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## Don Haines (Mar 26, 2019)

proutprout said:


> Canon is finished. Dead. Sony will release a beast in a few month, Apple will release a new iphone with 2x better low light capabilities and insane image computing, and by 2022 Canon will realize they actually need to do something that looks like a professional product. We’re in a world today where we talk Iphone 100MP when canon is releasing the RP without 24 frames per second. They diserve their losses


Don’t have a Harry fit!

In the real world, your photography is limited by the amount of light you gather. To go with more pixels in an area means that you have less photons hitting the sensor, and that means less dynamic range.

At base ISO, you need 2^14 pixels [EDIT] photons! I typed the wrong word![/EDIT]to get your 14 stops of DR. With the same scene, double the amount of pixels and that means dropping a stop of DR. You can go for bigger glass, but most of us are at the limit of what one can afford and/or the limits of what optics can achieve so unless you are shooting with a garbage lens, that option is out. You can double your exposure time, but that does not work when there is motion...

So, 100MP cell phones will never give you the results of a real camera because they do not gather enough light. You have to obey the laws of physics and mathematics, and no amount of marketing hype will change that.


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## transpo1 (Mar 26, 2019)

Great news! With a professional R body with FF 4K 60p another year away, there's no way I will be tempted back from my Fuji X-T3 this year. That equals cost savings for me


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 26, 2019)

proutprout said:


> Canon is finished. Dead. Sony will release a beast in a few month, Apple will release a new iphone with 2x better low light capabilities and insane image computing, and by 2022 Canon will realize they actually need to do something that looks like a professional product. We’re in a world today where we talk Iphone 100MP when canon is releasing the RP without 24 frames per second. They diserve their losses


YAPODFC


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## Cryve (Mar 26, 2019)

dont get baited by the trolls neuro, a response from you has almost gotten predictable.


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## kaitlyn2004 (Mar 26, 2019)

I just want the new g7x to come out already, for vlogging! Hell, the new Sony RX0 II announced today could even be a contender over the $1500 RX100 variant...


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## Quarkcharmed (Mar 26, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> At base ISO, you need 2^14 pixels to get your 14 stops of DR. With the same scene, double the amount of pixels and that means dropping a stop of DR.



You sure you understand how it works? 2^14 pixels = 16384, it's a picture of 128x128 pixels.
I suspect you're mixing up pixels and bits.


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## bokehmon22 (Mar 26, 2019)

BrightTiger said:


> Not terribly surprised, coupled with CEO Fujio Mitarai's statement regarding their view of the market in the next couple of years. I am waiting on the M5 II (or whatever replaces it) but I've thought about what would make me buy it and frankly there's not a lot other than IBIS or BSI or a variable angle screen that are just must-haves (and even I might need two of those must-haves to reasonably think of paying full price). Mind you I'm talking realistic upgrades, not pie-in-the-sky BS. But that's the world makers and buyers are in - unless there's a breakthrough or they decide to make good with Kasey of Camera Conspiracies, Tony & Chelsea and everyone one of us and deliver a friggin' camera with all of the options that should be on a camera.... there's not a whole lot that's really, really compelling to pay full price. The environment around photography is changing rapidly while the technology is stagnating. The makers are likely going to sit back and ponder their moves towards profitability. And that might mean waiting for the world to figure out if still cameras have major seat at the table or become a 2nd tier citizen to some form of video cams or other media equipment or smartphones simply eat the marketplace.



That's why I think the next EOS R Pro won't be a revolutionary product. It will have realistic upgrades and take a longer time for a 5D IV replacement. They are trying to reduce as much R&D in their camera body on a dying market especially if they know it's harder to recoup those cost with less sales. This probably why they use used 5D IV sensor in their EOS R and 6D II in their EOS R.

Their main attraction will be their lenses and the ecosystem. The product cycle will be longer.

Canon market position mean it's harder for them to deliver great video option in FF mirrorless since they have cinema line and DSLR they are not ready to cannibalize yet. The competitions will continue to deliver better and more compelling camera system.

In regard to must have. We have everything we need for a while. Now it's only wants - IBIS, better eyeAF, animal tracking, object tracking, global shutter, newer sensor with deep well with great dynamic range.


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## Don Haines (Mar 26, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> You sure you understand how it works? 2^14 pixels = 16384, it's a picture of 128x128 pixels.
> I suspect you're mixing up pixels and bits.


Nope.... with a perfect sensor, 100% efficiency and no read noise, it would take 2^14 photons to produce 2^14 electrons, and that translates to 14 stops of DR. If the pixel was only half the size, then it would only be hit with 2^13 photons, so then you have 2^13 electrons and 13 stops of DR.

If you want that smaller pixel to get hit with more light, you need more light, and that means either bigger glass, more time, or turn up the lights..... all of which change the scene...


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## Tom W (Mar 26, 2019)

If they do something new in terms of sensor with the 80D, it will work its way into the M series pretty soon after. 

I think any changes in the M will be refinement of the product more than a huge jump in any one area. Better AF, faster operation, shorter blackout when shooting full auto, perhaps a fully-rotating rear screen, that kind of thing. maybe even a little better battery life.


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## Bennymiata (Mar 26, 2019)

Sounds to me like the rest of this year will be a very boring time for us forumites....


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 26, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> The competitions will continue to deliver better and more compelling camera system.


You have some valid points, but not this one. “Better and more compelling,” is a matter of opinion. For one thing, I guarantee that many people will find the EOS RP compelling — it’s the least expensive current-model FF camera on the market.


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## Don Haines (Mar 26, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> YAPODFC


Neuro, normally you are right, but this time you are wrong. Phones are going to completely replace DSLR and Mirrorless cameras. I have already given up on them for bird photography and the reason is easy to see. Just look at the following pictures!

Chickadee in tree!



Hairy woodpecker at feeder



Bald eagle in flight


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 26, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> Neuro, normally you are right, but this time you are wrong. Phones are going to completely replace DSLR and Mirrorless cameras. I have already given up on them for bird photography and the reason is easy to see. Just look at the following pictures!
> 
> Chickadee in tree!
> View attachment 183644
> ...


Lovely pics, Don. It’s clear that your phone camera has superior animal eyeAF. I capitulate — Canon is, indeed, *******.


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## Randywayne (Mar 26, 2019)

flip314 said:


> I'm curious too, the 80D is only 3 years old, and it's not lacking much (other than possibly 4K). Give it a resolution bump, maybe the better AF system from the 7d Mk II, I'm not even sure what else. A few FPS?
> 
> The 7d mark ii is 4.5 years old, I wonder if there still is a chance that these lines get merged?



The 7D III is really the body I've been waiting for, for far too long. A better (than the 7D II) APS-C sensor with hopefully no AA and the same rugged body with better focusing. I never really liked my 7D II since a majority of photos always ranged from "a bit soft" to completely out of focus but then again I suspect I just had a bad copy. My 5D IV on the other hand is in a completely different league when nailing focus,

Oh ya, as far as 4k being in the next 90D/7DIII -I could care less about it but just want to see a decent version of it added to quiet the roaring mob.


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## Quarkcharmed (Mar 27, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> Nope.... with a perfect sensor, 100% efficiency and no read noise, it would take 2^14 photons to produce 2^14 electrons, and that translates to 14 stops of DR. If the pixel was only half the size, then it would only be hit with 2^13 photons, so then you have 2^13 electrons and 13 stops of DR.
> 
> If you want that smaller pixel to get hit with more light, you need more light, and that means either bigger glass, more time, or turn up the lights..... all of which change the scene...


In your previous message you were talking about pixels and now you use 'photons' in place of pixels. 

And no it doesn't work like you said. 2^14 photons don't produce 2^14 electrons and 2^14 electrons don't translate to 14-stop DR.
Read about effective quantum efficiency and signal-to-noise ratio.


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## cellomaster27 (Mar 27, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The same source also said that the Canon Rumors readers would be disappointed to know that a “professional level” camera such a replacement for the EOS 7D Mark II or EOS-1D X Mark II isn’t scheduled for this year.



I'm happy and sad that they know what we want. lol I'm going to try to milk my 5D3 while I wait.. 
btw... I don't know if this is a good idea.. what if someone made a battery grip for the EOS R with an extra card slot that records files from the main card via wires or bluetooth? probably need a program that would allow it.. I think then I'd get the darn camera.. lol any engineers that can do it?


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## bokehmon22 (Mar 27, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> You have some valid points, but not this one. “Better and more compelling,” is a matter of opinion. For one thing, I guarantee that many people will find the EOS RP compelling — it’s the least expensive current-model FF camera on the market.



I'm not wrong neither are you.

It's definitely a matter of opinion and what people value. Each market value thing differently - price, performance, features, etc. All the competitors has something to offers including Canon. We have a lot of choices. If people want the cheapest FF mirrorless camera, Canon RP is a good option. If people are price sensitive, APS-C might be an option since FF lenses are more expensive. Competitors also has A7II and eventually Nikon Z5. The market also has different demand than the cheapest FF market.



> I guarantee that many people will find the EOS RP compelling


 Sure "many people" will find it compelling. It's currently #53 on Amazon's Best Seller in Mirrrorless. Sony has 4 products on the top 4 and Canon M50 as #5. We will see if that's what the market want.

The point is Canon has alot of competitions compared to the yesteryear of mostly Canon vs Nikon. Everyone is offering something different and will take a piece of the pie away from Canon.


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## QuisUtDeus (Mar 27, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> The point is Canon has alot of competitions compared to the yesteryear of mostly Canon vs Nikon. Everyone is offering something different and will take a piece of the pie away from Canon.



The thing that boggles my mind is all the people who insist that they really want the Nikon/ Sony/ Fuji/ whatever pie... but would really rather just whine about it while still buying Canon.


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## jvillain (Mar 27, 2019)

I am positive that a read an interview with an executive from Canon that said there would be no 90D. I will look for it on the weekend.



bokehmon22 said:


> That's why I think the next EOS R Pro won't be a revolutionary product. It will have realistic upgrades and take a longer time for a 5D IV replacement. They are trying to reduce as much R&D in their camera body on a dying market especially if they know it's harder to recoup those cost with less sales. This probably why they use used 5D IV sensor in their EOS R and 6D II in their EOS R.



Here is what I don't get about this opinion and you are fully entitled to it. Canon is the big swinging thing when it comes to cameras. So they have far more sales to amortize the research over. So why do they have the smallest research budget and are years behind the other companies in development? Here we have them taking another years vacation. I thought they were turning it around when they promised regular software upgrades but where are the promised fixes for the EAF on the R?


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## bokehmon22 (Mar 27, 2019)

QuisUtDeus said:


> The thing that boggles my mind is all the people who insist that they really want the Nikon/ Sony/ Fuji/ whatever pie... but would really rather just whine about it while still buying Canon.



Not according to data. I'm not whining about it neither do many people who has already switched to another FF mirrorless. 

https://photorumors.com/2018/11/07/...a-market-share-sony-67-canon-22-1-nikon-10-4/ 

https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers...3109924011/ref=zg_bs_pg_1?_encoding=UTF8&pg=1


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## bokehmon22 (Mar 27, 2019)

jvillain said:


> I am positive that a read an interview with an executive from Canon that said there would be no 90D. I will look for it on the weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what I don't get about this opinion and you are fully entitled to it. Canon is the big swinging thing when it comes to cameras. So they have far more sales to amortize the research over. So why do they have the smallest research budget and are years behind the other companies in development? Here we have them taking another years vacation. I thought they were turning it around when they promised regular software upgrades but where are the promised fixes for the EAF on the R?



Maybe it's because they see the camera market declining a lot and would rather use the profit to invest in their other more profitable and lucrative business. They spent R&D on lenses and just enough for people to buy into the system. I could be wrong, but the results of their last couple FF mirrorless body hasn't been that impressive.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 27, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> The point is Canon has alot of competitions compared to the yesteryear of mostly Canon vs Nikon. Everyone is offering something different and will take a piece of the pie away from Canon.


That’s been the case for several years, and no one has eaten any of Canon’s pie yet. But feel free to make that claim if Canon actually loses ILC market share. Until then, the claim is baseless.


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## unfocused (Mar 27, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> YAPODFC


English please. Some of us don't speak sarcastic geek.


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## rrcphoto (Mar 27, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> Not according to data. I'm not whining about it neither do many people who has already switched to another FF mirrorless.
> 
> https://photorumors.com/2018/11/07/...a-market-share-sony-67-canon-22-1-nikon-10-4/
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers...3109924011/ref=zg_bs_pg_1?_encoding=UTF8&pg=1


that's hardly quantitive data.

and your one is just linking "full frame mirrorless" which is only a small portion of the overall market, what the heck good is that?
here's real world data of course it doesn't fit with your narrative that you seem to be consistently posting on.
https://www.canonnews.com/canons-2018-financials-the-market-slides-and-canon-with-it







2016 was artificially high. so if you discount that year, Canon's marketshare has been steadily growing since 2015. In a declining market.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 27, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> Not according to data. I'm not whining about it neither do many people who has already switched to another FF mirrorless.
> 
> https://photorumors.com/2018/11/07/...a-market-share-sony-67-canon-22-1-nikon-10-4/
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers...3109924011/ref=zg_bs_pg_1?_encoding=UTF8&pg=1


LOLz at the Amazon 'data'. The only thing on the list is a 3rd party 'kit' with a bunch of crap thrown in. Amazon's listings for the RP are confused. The RP + RF24-105 with the free mount adapter is #118 in Camera Lens Adapters & Converters. Yeah, that's where it belongs. Better yet, one of the kits with the EF 24-105 STM is #48,963 in Men's Novelty T-Shirts. An even more appropriate category. Way to go, Amazon.


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## unfocused (Mar 27, 2019)

jvillain said:


> I am positive that a read an interview with an executive from Canon that said there would be no 90D. I will look for it on the weekend.



I think either your memory or your source is faulty. It would be very uncharacteristic of Canon to make such a statement, even if true.



jvillain said:


> ...Canon is the big swinging thing when it comes to cameras. So they have far more sales to amortize the research over. So why do they have the smallest research budget and are years behind the other companies in development?...



I was not aware that Canon made their research budget public. Do you have figures on what they spend in comparison to other companies, or is this something you are making up?

I'm also curious how they are "years behind the other companies." As I recall, they tend to be industry leaders in patents and they seem to regularly announce new innovations that they are working on. 

Invariably, when people on this forum claim that Canon is "behind" in an area, they are simply cherrypicking the facts -- giving other companies extra points for features the individual finds desirable and discounting features of Canon cameras that others find innovative and desirable.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 27, 2019)

unfocused said:


> English please. Some of us don't speak sarcastic geek.


5 years and counting. It's a thing now.


neuroanatomist said:


> YAPODFC.
> 
> Yet another prediction of doom for Canon.
> 
> ...


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## rrcphoto (Mar 27, 2019)

unfocused said:


> I think either your memory or your source is faulty. It would be very uncharacteristic of Canon to make such a statement, even if true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



he's making it up..


R&D (billions of yen)Net Sales (billions of yen)R&D as a percentage of Net SalesNikon66.781​819.388​8.15%​Sony458.5​7231.613​6.34%​Canon315.852​3951.937​7.99%​

Looking at the last fiscal year financials for the top three.

Seems Sony spends the least against a percentage of sales, which is the common method of looking at R&D expenditures.

Nikon spends the most. Canon is just a shade under Nikon.

Even by actuals Canon spends alot of money on R&D, that's around 2.8 billion USD per year. Yet that's not enough for some.. lol

but hey, can't let facts get in the way of a good narrative


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## preppyak (Mar 27, 2019)

flip314 said:


> I'm curious too, the 80D is only 3 years old, and it's not lacking much (other than possibly 4K). Give it a resolution bump, maybe the better AF system from the 7d Mk II, I'm not even sure what else. A few FPS?
> 
> The 7d mark ii is 4.5 years old, I wonder if there still is a chance that these lines get merged?


For it to retail at the same price as the RP, it'll definitely need a few major updates. 4k the bare minimum (and with no DPAF or crop limitations), the competitors all do 1080/120 too, but I doubt Canon matches that. AF system will need more points and a better spread. Probably need to bump the normal and burst FPS by at least 1 if not 2 shots per second.

But you're sort of getting at why the XXD line probably isnt long for this world. While its a great start-out all rounder, it just cant compete spec-wise with say, an a6400...which is gonna double a 90D's frame rate, 10x its AF points, and include things like eye-AF, at 70% the price. A new 7DIII would, but would die at a retail price of $1799 or so for anyone but pros.

In a way, it makes more sense to keep selling 80D's at something like $899 for a while. Because there's no sign that the sensor tech, iso performance, etc is gonna take any major leap forward any time soon to really justify a new version.


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## Chaitanya (Mar 27, 2019)

unfocused said:


> I'm curious, other than 4K, what would you be hoping for?


No AA filter, deeper buffer, dual card slots(both uhs-ii), usb-c port with charging capability, either af joystick or touch to drag af point selector. Maybe a good quality 1080p 60fps and 4k 30fps(dont mind crop mode). Also if rumours of merging 7D and x0D line are true then implementation of CFexpress slot.


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## Del Paso (Mar 27, 2019)

proutprout said:


> Canon is finished. Dead. Sony will release a beast in a few month, Apple will release a new iphone with 2x better low light capabilities and insane image computing, and by 2022 Canon will realize they actually need to do something that looks like a professional product. We’re in a world today where we talk Iphone 100MP when canon is releasing the RP without 24 frames per second. They diserve their losses


You must have read this in a bird's entrails, or was it in the tea leaves?
Your contributions to this forum are so wonderfully negative.
Do you perhaps take your wishes for realities? If so, expect a huge disappointment!


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## Dar7 (Mar 27, 2019)

... And firmware too! Is the Eos r new firmware arriving the next 18th of April? Version 1.2 for enhancements and fixes such as Eye Detection on servo AF and continuous shooting on silent shutter mode. From Canon Imaging Asia: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2291370657765830


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## Del Paso (Mar 27, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> LOLz at the Amazon 'data'. The only thing on the list is a 3rd party 'kit' with a bunch of crap thrown in. Amazon's listings for the RP are confused. The RP + RF24-105 with the free mount adapter is #118 in Camera Lens Adapters & Converters. Yeah, that's where it belongs. Better yet, one of the kits with the EF 24-105 STM is #48,963 in Men's Novelty T-Shirts. An even more appropriate category. Way to go, Amazon.


AND: DPReview belongs to Amazon, so their "statistics" are certainly totally unbiased...


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## LDS (Mar 27, 2019)

proutprout said:


> pple will release a new iphone with 2x better low light capabilities and insane image computing [...[ We’re in a world today where we talk Iphone 100MP



Maybe, but I bet that iPhone XXX with 4TB memory (and no removable card support, nor battery, of course) will cost at least $6,999..... and being Apple, its AI will take only the photos it likes to take.


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## peters (Mar 27, 2019)

".. and a new camera type for video shooters."
This sounds interesting


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## Stuart (Mar 27, 2019)

So nothing doing for ALL the rest of the year - phew 
See you again in Jan 2020?


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## bokehmon22 (Mar 27, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> LOLz at the Amazon 'data'. The only thing on the list is a 3rd party 'kit' with a bunch of crap thrown in. Amazon's listings for the RP are confused. The RP + RF24-105 with the free mount adapter is #118 in Camera Lens Adapters & Converters. Yeah, that's where it belongs. Better yet, one of the kits with the EF 24-105 STM is #48,963 in Men's Novelty T-Shirts. An even more appropriate category. Way to go, Amazon.


Feel free to provide any sale info where Canon is gaining shares in the last couple years with more and more competitions entering the market


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## bokehmon22 (Mar 27, 2019)

rrcphoto said:


> that's hardly quantitive data.
> 
> and your one is just linking "full frame mirrorless" which is only a small portion of the overall market, what the heck good is that?
> here's real world data of course it doesn't fit with your narrative that you seem to be consistently posting on.
> ...


I didn't know this. Thanks for pointing out. It seems everywhere I look, Canon numbers including sales volume has been down.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 27, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> Feel free to provide any sale info where Canon is gaining shares in the last couple years with more and more competitions entering the market


I’m not claiming they’re gaining market share, I’m statingvtheyre not losing any. You’re claiming they are. Have you seen the front page?

*Canon celebrates 16th consecutive year of Number 1 share of global interchangeable-lens digital camera market*


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 27, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> I didn't know this. Thanks for pointing out. It seems everywhere I look, Canon numbers including sales volume has been down.


The digital camera market is shrinking, so is ILC market segment. Canon’s market _share_ is not changing. Your claims that all the ‘competition entering the market’ are having a negative impact on Canon are simply not suppprted by the data. Continuing to repeat misinformation won’t change the fact that it’s bogus.


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## bichex (Mar 27, 2019)

Así de mal.
Tengo una 7D II con una gran cantidad de uso y se ha comenzado a fallar. El problema es que entra en el menú cuando toco cualquier botón de la cámara, y es imposible usarlo cuando sucede. En mi país no hay servicio de canon oficial. Tengo un viaje a Ecuador pronto y en base a los comentarios que compré un nuevo 80D como un cuerpo de reserva. Una gran decepción, la AF es muy inferior a la 7D II y realmente no funciona para lo que necesito. Tengo amigos que utilizan la D500 de Nikon y es triste que aceptar pero es muy superior a mi 7D II, en la FA y en alta ISOS. Si el canon no actualiza el 7D II, que debería considerar el cambio a Nikon, que no quiero ya que tengo lentes, flashes y todo tipo de accesorios que serán una pérdida de tiempo y dinero. De todos modos, creo que Canon no tiene un sensor que puede competir, y esa es la razón por la que no veo un nuevo 7D II. No tengo ninguna interer en el sistema de RF por ahora.


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## unfocused (Mar 27, 2019)

bichex said:


> Así de mal.
> Tengo una 7D II con una gran cantidad de uso y se ha comenzado a fallar. El problema es que entra en el menú cuando toco cualquier botón de la cámara, y es imposible usarlo cuando sucede. En mi país no hay servicio de canon oficial. Tengo un viaje a Ecuador pronto y en base a los comentarios que compré un nuevo 80D como un cuerpo de reserva. Una gran decepción, la AF es muy inferior a la 7D II y realmente no funciona para lo que necesito. Tengo amigos que utilizan la D500 de Nikon y es triste que aceptar pero es muy superior a mi 7D II, en la FA y en alta ISOS. Si el canon no actualiza el 7D II, que debería considerar el cambio a Nikon, que no quiero ya que tengo lentes, flashes y todo tipo de accesorios que serán una pérdida de tiempo y dinero. De todos modos, creo que Canon no tiene un sensor que puede competir, y esa es la razón por la que no veo un nuevo 7D II. No tengo ninguna interer en el sistema de RF por ahora.


That's unfortunate. I can understand why you wouldn't want to buy a new 7DII or pay a lot to have it repaired at this point, when you never know when a new model might come out.


----------



## jayphotoworks (Mar 27, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> Neuro, normally you are right, but this time you are wrong. Phones are going to completely replace DSLR and Mirrorless cameras. I have already given up on them for bird photography and the reason is easy to see. Just look at the following pictures!
> 
> Chickadee in tree!
> View attachment 183644
> ...



Appreciate the sarcasm, but I can perhaps see lower end mirrorless cameras being eventually displaced by phones as well in the near future. For many casual shooters, there will have to a compelling need to actually purchase and carry around an ILC. The newest Huawei P30 Pro has a 16mm-125mm FL range combined with a TOF depth camera. I believe Sony is also working with Light and Xiaomi to deliver upcoming multi-camera smartphones as well. IMO, although the Light L16 itself was a failure, it was a great proof of concept now actually being realized more and more in consumer smartphones where it counts. When we get to 200mm, an average smartphone will have covered the mainstay trinity of most camera systems 16-35, 24-70, 70-200...


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## bokehmon22 (Mar 27, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> The digital camera market is shrinking, so is ILC market segment. Canon’s market _share_ is not changing. Your claims that all the ‘competition entering the market’ are having a negative impact on Canon are simply not suppprted by the data. Continuing to repeat misinformation won’t change the fact that it’s bogus.



Canon make a lot of products from entry fixed lenses to FF mirrorless. They still have alot of loyalty world wide. Their top selling mirrorless is M50 while Sony is A7III that cost significantly more.

As an enthusiast and a professional, I care more about FF market more. I could care less about sales numbers for entry camera. Canon EOS RP will sell well but it doesn't mean much for me.

Here is some data. https://nikonrumors.com/2019/02/04/...-in-japan-sony-66-4-canon-17-5-nikon-16.aspx/

The sales for December 2018 are - Sony: 66.4%, Canon: 17.5%, Nikon: 16%.

You don't think more competitions not just in camera manufacturers (Canon, Sony, Panasonic, Sigma, Nikon) but lens manufacturers (Tamron, Sigma, etc) has any impact on Canon especially in the FF market?


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## unfocused (Mar 27, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> As an enthusiast and a professional, I care more about FF market more. I could care less about sales numbers for entry camera. Canon EOS RP will sell well but it doesn't mean much for me. [



That makes no sense. Camera companies are not sports teams. The only reason to care about the market is because it has an impact on the profitability and sustainability of the brand. It is important because it means the company is more likely to continue to improve and market new products and support its lines. To get a sense of that, you need to look at the entire product line. Sales of entry-level cameras has a direct (in fact the most) impact on sustainability in the market. 

Splitting hairs down to only the product that you specifically care about only makes sense if you get some satisfaction from owning a popular product. There is nothing wrong with that, but don't think for a minute it has any real world impact. 



bokehmon22 said:


> You don't think more competitions not just in camera manufacturers (Canon, Sony, Panasonic, Sigma, Nikon) but lens manufacturers (Tamron, Sigma, etc) has any impact on Canon especially in the FF market?



Of course it does. That's why Canon has entered the full-frame mirrorless market and laid out an aggressive strategy with high quality lenses and a variety of bodies. Canon is reacting aggressively to market changes, it's just not reacting in the way that you specifically want it to.


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## Chuckmet (Mar 27, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> Neuro, normally you are right, but this time you are wrong. Phones are going to completely replace DSLR and Mirrorless cameras. I have already given up on them for bird photography and the reason is easy to see. Just look at the following pictures!
> 
> Chickadee in tree!
> View attachment 183644
> ...


I love the catchlight in the eagle's eye!


----------



## Kit. (Mar 27, 2019)

Bennymiata said:


> Sounds to me like the rest of this year will be a very boring time for us forumites....


Are you saying that there will be no G7X III this year?


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 27, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> As an enthusiast and a professional, I care more about FF market more. I could care less about sales numbers for entry camera. Canon EOS RP will sell well but it doesn't mean much for me.


So we've gone from a general 'Canon is suffering because of all the competition' to 'I am talking about the non-entry level FF market because that's what I care about'. *Canon sold more FF ILCs than any other manufacturer in 2018. *Given that fact, let me anticipate your next goalpost move – you _really_ only care about FF mirrorless. In fact, you have already gone there:



bokehmon22 said:


> Here is some data. https://nikonrumors.com/2019/02/04/...-in-japan-sony-66-4-canon-17-5-nikon-16.aspx/
> 
> The sales for December 2018 are - Sony: 66.4%, Canon: 17.5%, Nikon: 16%.


Consider this: prior to September, 2018 Sony had essentially 100% of the FF MILC market, since the only competition in that sub-segment was Leica, and Leica doesn't really sell enough cameras to be even a blip on global market figures. You are arguing that 'all this competition is hurting Canon', but the data you link to support that claim tell a very different story. *Sony lost 44% *of the Japanese FF MILC market in just 4 months. How can you believe that supports the argument that Canon is hurting from competition? Sorry but the lack of logical comprehension inherent in that suggestion is rather staggering.

Consider...back in 2012 Sony was essentially the only maker of ASP-C MILCs (the other brands were m4/3), and there were no mainstream FF MILCs. Canon launched the EOS M, critics and forum dwellers hated it. Sony pivoted to emphasize FF MILCs, which was a wise move on their part since the EOS M line has now become the best-selling APS-C MILC line. But now, Canon and Nikon have entered the FF MILC market, and Sony is hemorrhaging market share, although they remain the leader in that sub-segment (for now). Time will tell if they can hold onto that lead once Canon and Nikon have had FF MILC models on the market for a full year.


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## QuisUtDeus (Mar 27, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> Not according to data. I'm not whining about it neither do many people who has already switched to another FF mirrorless.
> 
> https://photorumors.com/2018/11/07/...a-market-share-sony-67-canon-22-1-nikon-10-4/
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers...3109924011/ref=zg_bs_pg_1?_encoding=UTF8&pg=1



That proves that in a year in which Canon did not offer a FF MILC for most of the year they didn't win the sales game of FF MILCs. Enjoy the next few months, because when those numbers come out next time you're going to be sobbing in the corner.

What it does not prove is that people who already owned Canon cameras (FF or crop) are actually jumping ship to Sony or anyone else as is constantly claimed. Do you want to try again?


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## bokehmon22 (Mar 27, 2019)

QuisUtDeus said:


> That proves that in a year in which Canon did not offer a FF MILC for most of the year they didn't win the sales game of FF MILCs. Enjoy the next few months, because when those numbers come out next time you're going to be sobbing in the corner.
> 
> What it does not prove is that people who already owned Canon cameras (FF or crop) are actually jumping ship to Sony or anyone else as is constantly claimed. Do you want to try again?


Why would I sob? We are talking about camera not life or death situation I deal with every day in my full time job.

If a certain camera sell more or less, I couldn't care less. I don't own any share in Canon, Nikon, Sony etc.

I own shares in other companies and I don't care either as long they make me money. A camera is just a tool for me.


----------



## Daner (Mar 27, 2019)

When it comes to updating the 7D Mk II they don't really need anything earth-shattering to give many current users what they want. Parts-bin engineering could provide the sensor from the 80D for a boost in resolution and DR. The fixed touch screen from the 5D Mk IV could provide additional functionality and user-friendliness without compromising durability like a flippy screen might. Dual Digic 8 processors would eliminate buffer issues and enable more impressive video capture options. The AF system from the 1D X Mk II would improve AF capabilities. Any improved DPAF capabilities from the EOS R for improved performance during live-view shooting and video work would be welcome. Carry over the 10FPS 200k life shutter, the SD/CF card slots, the joystick, and the LP-E6N battery from the current model.

None of those things are new, but they could take the 7D Mk III several steps closer to the D500 without requiring a huge investment in new tech, keeping the price under control.

I've already traded up from a 7D Mk II to a 5D Mk IV and sold my EF-S lenses, but when I go looking for a second body I would rather put my long glass on a crop-sensor body with the capabilities that I have described then deal with the current limitations of the R line.


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## Ricardo_fon (Mar 28, 2019)

Joules said:


> What's up with that? I thought this rumor pretty much confirmed we're getting replacements for the M series:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hope the M upgrades do come. In South Africa one of the online stores already has the M5 marked as discontinued, and prices are dropping on M6. I won't upgrade right now, but want the system to stay alive and well.


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## stevelee (Mar 28, 2019)

Perhaps this post needs its own topic, or perhaps it deserves oblivion. I'm wondering about the "be careful what you wish for" possibilities of 4K. That seems to be on everyone's wish list for all sorts of cameras. Ignoring the whole discussion of whether most folks need or will benefit from 4K (which we've had before, and which seems to have less relevance as more cameras include it anyway), can the implementation in some cameras amount to less quality from the 4K as from the existing 1080p? Or is that fact that sensors are already greater than 9 MP mean there are plenty of data for 4K anyway? What about compression? Is highly compressed 4K really any better or more useful than moderately compressed 1080p, say for example that you get the same bitrate for transferring and storing?


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## mensaf (Mar 28, 2019)

Ricardo_fon said:


> I hope the M upgrades do come. In South Africa one of the online stores already has the M5 marked as discontinued, and prices are dropping on M6. I won't upgrade right now, but want the system to stay alive and well.


If I had to guess, they're probably going to announce the next gen M5/M6 on April 3rd. I've seen more and more online retailers label them out of stock.


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## neonlight (Mar 28, 2019)

Don
something wrong with your calculations I think. Pixels have full well (max. electron counts) in the order of 100,000, not 2^14.
DR is 20 log(full well/noise) so if noise is 10 electrons and FW 100,000 that makes 80dB DR, just over 13 bits. Though smaller pixels may not reach 10,000 electrons FW, and noise might not be as low as 10 but the best pixels can reach 2.


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## neonlight (Mar 28, 2019)

A long time ago (well, maybe a couple of years) it was reported that Canon were thinking of updating "all of the 400mm lenses". We've had upgrades to the 100-400, 400DO, 400 f/2.8 ... where's the one for 400 f/5.6?


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 28, 2019)

neonlight said:


> ... where's the one for 400 f/5.6?


It was called the EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II.


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## Don Haines (Mar 28, 2019)

neonlight said:


> Don
> something wrong with your calculations I think. Pixels have full well (max. electron counts) in the order of 100,000, not 2^14.
> DR is 20 log(full well/noise) so if noise is 10 electrons and FW 100,000 that makes 80dB DR, just over 13 bits. Though smaller pixels may not reach 10,000 electrons FW, and noise might not be as low as 10 but the best pixels can reach 2.


Mine were not really calculations, more like numbers pulled out of the air to illustrate a concept. Your numbers seem about right.... most DSLRs have a full well somewhere around 40,000, and your range of 10,000 to about 100,000 bracket that nicely.


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## Don Haines (Mar 28, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> It was called the EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II.


A new version of the 400F5.6 should be lighter, cheaper, and sharper than the 100-400F5.6. It is not a replace for the 400, but a substitution. That said, Canon may feel that the market is not there... who knows, perhaps this lens will show up next as an R!

Personally, I would like to see a 500F5.6 or a 600F6.3...... something of L quality that gets you a bit more reach and is still easily portable and affordable


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## QuisUtDeus (Mar 28, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> A new version of the 400F5.6 should be lighter, cheaper, and sharper than the 100-400F5.6. It is not a replace for the 400, but a substitution. That said, Canon may feel that the market is not there... who knows, perhaps this lens will show up next as an R!
> 
> Personally, I would like to see a 500F5.6 or a 600F6.3...... something of L quality that gets you a bit more reach and is still easily portable and affordable



I really doubt a new 400L is coming. A budgety 500/5.6 (maybe L) would be awesome, though.


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## neonlight (Mar 29, 2019)

Actually, I agree I'd like an L-ish 500 f5.6 (maybe a 600 f/6.3 but I think a wider aperture better) in preference to an upgraded 400. Perhaps a 600 f/5.6...


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 29, 2019)

neonlight said:


> Actually, I agree I'd like an L-ish 500 f5.6 (maybe a 600 f/6.3 but I think a wider aperture better) in preference to an upgraded 400. Perhaps a 600 f/5.6...


600/5.6 = 300/2.8 = costly and large.


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## TenPoundTabby (Mar 29, 2019)

So the thrust of this article is that a replacement for the 80d coming = boring, and so there's nothing interesting at all happening with Canon. I happen to think that the 80d replacement is important and exciting. I get it; it's your site; you can do what you want, but that attitude just strikes me as pretty elitist. Don't worry. I don't post here often and now I have even less reason to do so.


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## Don Haines (Mar 29, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> 600/5.6 = 300/2.8 = costly and large.


This is why I was thinking 500F5.6 of 600F6.3..... it would be about the size of a Tamron or Sigma 150-600, except a wee bit lighter and should be sharper if not L quality, and considerable sharper if it is an L. A non-L 500F5.6 would compete well against the Nikon 200-500 and should outperform it.


----------



## flip314 (Mar 29, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> This is why I was thinking 500F5.6 of 600F6.3..... it would be about the size of a Tamron or Sigma 150-600, except a wee bit lighter and should be sharper if not L quality, and considerable sharper if it is an L. A non-L 500F5.6 would compete well against the Nikon 200-500 and should outperform it.



I hope that some day Canon comes out with a lens comparable to the 150-600s (or even Nikon's 200-500)... IMO, it's a bit of a hole in their lineup. Maybe they think the 100-400 is good enough, but a little more reach never hurts.


----------



## BillB (Mar 29, 2019)

flip314 said:


> I hope that some day Canon comes out with a lens comparable to the 150-600s (or even Nikon's 200-500)... IMO, it's a bit of a hole in their lineup. Maybe they think the 100-400 is good enough, but a little more reach never hurts.


But a little less weight and size is good too.


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## 3kramd5 (Mar 30, 2019)

neonlight said:


> A long time ago (well, maybe a couple of years) it was reported that Canon were thinking of updating "all of the 400mm lenses". We've had upgrades to the 100-400, 400DO, 400 f/2.8 ... where's the one for 400 f/5.6?


Where? Or when?


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## QuisUtDeus (Mar 30, 2019)

TenPoundTabby said:


> So the thrust of this article is that a replacement for the 80d coming = boring, and so there's nothing interesting at all happening with Canon. I happen to think that the 80d replacement is important and exciting. I get it; it's your site; you can do what you want, but that attitude just strikes me as pretty elitist. Don't worry. I don't post here often and now I have even less reason to do so.



Not everyone thinks a new 80D (90D) is boring, especially if it comes packing a legit all-new, 32mpx sensor instead of another we-swear-it's-new 24mpx.

It's also interesting to see how the narrative from the mirrorless faithful has switched from "Canon will never release another mirrorslapper" to "well this is the last round of updates" without acknowledging how wrong that would have made all their late-2018 pontification.


----------



## TAF (Mar 30, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> Don’t have a Harry fit!
> 
> In the real world, your photography is limited by the amount of light you gather. To go with more pixels in an area means that you have less photons hitting the sensor, and that means less dynamic range.
> 
> ...




Maybe we'll see a joint Canon/Apple product: the iPhone XI where they put an RF mount on the back...and Apple can use the extra thickness for some serious battery...and Canon can sell lots of lenses...etc.

Now that would be a crossover product.


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## neonlight (Mar 30, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Where? Or when?


When turns out to be years. Probably never, now the R has been launched.


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## neonlight (Mar 30, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> This is why I was thinking 500F5.6 of 600F6.3..... it would be about the size of a Tamron or Sigma 150-600, except a wee bit lighter and should be sharper if not L quality, and considerable sharper if it is an L. A non-L 500F5.6 would compete well against the Nikon 200-500 and should outperform it.


Yes, if a 500f5.6 non-L is sharp that would be welcome. But difficult to see Canon introducing new EF lenses any time soon, they've got a few RF ones to deal with.
I'm also waiting for a 7DIII with no AA filter. 24 MPix would be good, sort of 80D sensor without the AA filter and lots of f/8 AF points.


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## jedy (Mar 30, 2019)

Stuart said:


> So nothing doing for ALL the rest of the year - phew
> See you again in Jan 2020?


Nice to look up the rumours from time to time but you’d think people would be happy with the perfectly adequate camera equipment they already own.


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## dba101 (Mar 31, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> Why would I sob? We are talking about camera not life or death situation I deal with every day in my full time job.
> 
> If a certain camera sell more or less, I couldn't care less. I don't own any share in Canon, Nikon, Sony etc.
> 
> I own shares in other companies and I don't care either as long they make me money. A camera is just a tool for me.


Confucius say you cannot be proved wrong and say you don’t care anyway. He also say when dip toe in hot water make sure it’s not molten lava.


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## Pape (Apr 1, 2019)

if they make new 7.5cm lens long tele prime. i hope it would also focus to 2meter or something . 400mm 5,6 isnt very usefull for little birds.
I know when i stand somehwere lurking flying birds passing ,its 100% sure tit comes inspect what i am doing on close distance.


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## docsmith (Apr 1, 2019)

flip314 said:


> I hope that some day Canon comes out with a lens comparable to the 150-600s (or even Nikon's 200-500)... IMO, it's a bit of a hole in their lineup. Maybe they think the 100-400 is good enough, but a little more reach never hurts.



With modern cameras focusing at f/8, the EF 100-400 plus 1.4TC is actually very similar to the 150-600 cameras. Especially since they are not true 600 mm (or 400 mm for that matter). As long as you have a body that can focus at f/8, this really isn't a hole in the lineup.


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## bokehmon22 (Apr 1, 2019)

dba101 said:


> Confucius say you cannot be proved wrong and say you don’t care anyway. He also say when dip toe in hot water make sure it’s not molten lava.



It just a damn tool. Why do you care about sales or loyalty to a company?

Beside camera, I'm into alot of other electronics. If another companies has something that serve me better, I buy it. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and If I'm right, it doesn't matter. There are more important things to worry about than sales numbers of a camera. There are more to life than photography. I'm not going to cry about it like someone suggested I do. Repeat this to yourself. IT'S A TOOL.


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## unfocused (Apr 1, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> It just a damn tool. Why do you care about sales or loyalty to a company?
> 
> Beside camera, I'm into alot of other electronics. If another companies has something that serve me better, I buy it. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and If I'm right, it doesn't matter. There are more important things to worry about than sales numbers of a camera. There are more to life than photography. I'm not going to cry about it like someone suggested I do. Repeat this to yourself. IT'S A TOOL.



I think there is confusion because many of your posts sound as though you care very much, but yet you are saying you don't care at all.


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## flip314 (Apr 1, 2019)

docsmith said:


> With modern cameras focusing at f/8, the EF 100-400 plus 1.4TC is actually very similar to the 150-600 cameras. Especially since they are not true 600 mm (or 400 mm for that matter). As long as you have a body that can focus at f/8, this really isn't a hole in the lineup.



At infinity focus, you should get pretty close to the rated focal length. It's true at close focus some of the lenses are not as long as expected... Unless you're referring to something else I'm not aware of?


----------



## bokehmon22 (Apr 1, 2019)

unfocused said:


> I think there is confusion because many of your posts sound as though you care very much, but yet you are saying you don't care at all.



Not really. We are just debating about the future of camera sales. It's silly to think how well a company do will make me cry in the corner like some Canon poster said I would do because I'm wrong.

If they don't have what I need, I just move on like all my electronics and incur the cost of switching. It's a tool and inanimate object. 

I care more about real estate investing right now and upcoming recession, and my family well being.


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## docsmith (Apr 1, 2019)

flip314 said:


> At infinity focus, you should get pretty close to the rated focal length. It's true at close focus some of the lenses are not as long as expected... Unless you're referring to something else I'm not aware of?


It depends on what you mean by "pretty close." If you look at the various patents, lenses are almost always short. Then, if you look at the actual distances to image reported at different focal lengths, you can calculate the actual focal length. As a quick example, the 100-400 II is pretty universally accepted to really be a 380-385 mm lens at the long end.

But that is Canon. I've found my 150-600S to be well short of 600 mm when playing with the calcs. It is more like 540-550 mm. So, if that is "pretty close" to 600 mm, then you are all set. For me, I've accepted that there are a number of games being played with cameras and that any spec given is more of a guideline than something you should take to the bank.

If you really want to get going, f-stop, versus actual theoretical f-stop (see patents), versus t-stop. Some lenses t-stop is 2/3 of a stop off the reported f-stop.


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## Don Haines (Apr 1, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> If they don't have what I need, I just move on like all my electronics and incur the cost of switching. It's a tool and inanimate object.



In general I would agree with you, but not for cameras. I want a Frankencamera with Canon glass and ergonomics, Sony sensor, and Olympus feature set. Nobody makes the camera. Of the ones that are made, nothing hits all the buttons, but several are close enough to consider. Of those, there is no clear winner so I stick with what I have.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 1, 2019)

I guess ‘close’ counts in horseshoes, hand grenades...and lens design.


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## bokehmon22 (Apr 2, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> In general I would agree with you, but not for cameras. I want a Frankencamera with Canon glass and ergonomics, Sony sensor, and Olympus feature set. Nobody makes the camera. Of the ones that are made, nothing hits all the buttons, but several are close enough to consider. Of those, there is no clear winner so I stick with what I have.



I want the same thing as you but there is no perfect camera exist even if you have the money to pay for it.

I also don't think it's in the interest of the camera company to make a perfect camera because that would lead to their eventual demise especially when in 2-3 years it can be had for cheap on the used and discounted old model.

As with everything in life, there are trade offs. I have learned to evaluate my priority, shooting style and professional needs.

Once I figure out my priority and what I want in a camera, I think I found one camera that come the closest to what I want and I can adapt my EF lens (24-70 2.8 II) and Sigma EF lenses. It's not perfect, but it's the camera I wished Canon would have built.

5.76 million dot EVF 120 hz
Great ergonomic, backlit button, weather sealed, fully touch screen LCD with good menu, good color
24 mpx "Sony" sensor that beat Fuji film medium format in DR test & has clean 12800 ISO
Dual card slot with XQD/CFExpress support
IBIS 6 stop (hand held 4 seconds)
EyeAF and AI tracking.
USB-C charging
$2500 with free battery and grip.
4K 60, unlimited 4k 30, 180 FPS HD
There are some flaws with this system but nothing I deem it to be serious. I can live with those limitation especially for $2500 with $430 pre-order bonus (battery and grip). If someone come along and make a perfect camera, I'll upgrade consider it as a cheap upgrade consider my Canon 5D IV can be fetch around $2000.

I'll first to admit this upgrade is to satisfy my wants not needs. If I can create and charge people $6K for a wedding with a Canon 6D years ago, I learn really quick that gears aren't everything. At the same time, if you have money, why not enjoy life a little .


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