# Camera Modes



## bbb34 (Oct 14, 2012)

Hi Everybody,

There was a time when SLRs were fully manual. They usually had a shutter (T) dial, and the lens had an (A)perture ring.

A mode dial was needed as soon as automatic exposure was introduced. Cameras could have M, Av, Tv, and P modes.
P obviously controlled A and T.

DSLRs added (automatic) control over (S)ensitivity, but the mode dials on the DSLRs still reflect the modes from film SLRs. ISO (S) is treated different from A and T.

In my opinion, this gives a bad user interface:

P: should control everything (A, T, S), instead S might be set to a fixed value 

M: should be manual, instead S might be automatic.

Av and Tv should preset only one value (A or T), instead S might be preset or not


Instead of four modes (M A T P), a DSLR should have 3^2 = 8 modes: M A T S AT AS TS P 
If I want to have these 8 modes on a mode dial, is a very different question.

When I just googled what the 'v' in Av an Tv stands for, I came across the Pentax K5. Apparently the Pentax people think like I do. this camera has 6 modes on the dial: M, TA, A, T, S, P


What do you think? Do you like the 'logic' in Canon's mode dials?


Best regards,
bbb


-


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 14, 2012)

I don't use the dials much, either Av or Tv pretty well take care of everything. If there is a setup I like and use a lot, I can assign it to a custom mode.
If you are comparing with a Digital Rebel and all the many modes they have, I can't help you there, I'd still use Av and TV with M in a very few cases.
If the Pentax UI is what you like, thats fine, buy one and you will be happy. Personally, the mode dial is the oast thing I'd consider when selecting a camera, there are many much more important things than the number of modes.


----------



## bbb34 (Oct 14, 2012)

I did not ask you which camera I should buy, did I?
Neither I am talking about the mode dial. 

This is about the symmetry of the three values defining the EV, the logic of the UI to control these values, and how DSLRs should be designed.


----------



## crasher8 (Oct 14, 2012)

Yes it works for me and I've never lost sleep over it. Thanks for asking.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 14, 2012)

bbb34 said:


> What do you think? Do you like the 'logic' in Canon's mode dials?



The logic of the mode dial on my 1D X is fallacious.


----------



## DB (Oct 14, 2012)

I only ever use 2 modes: AV and M (and 90% the latter) primarily because it forces me to learn about the exposure triangle; Shutter-Speed, Aperture and ISO sensitivity. Even custom mode dials are a moot point now that modern DSLR's have user-configurable buttons, menu-driven custom function settings and now wireless tech that will allow photographers to load photo/video profiles on-the-fly from even an iPhone or iPad/Laptop


----------



## AudioGlenn (Oct 14, 2012)

disagree. sounds like you should just be in M and get over it... just saying.


----------



## verysimplejason (Oct 15, 2012)

M and Av are enough for me. I use M more because I can't rely on the evaluative metering on my 500D for those scenes with so much contrast. Those times, I use M + spot metering. If lighting is good and balanced enough, then I just use Av.


----------



## SwampYankee (Oct 15, 2012)

Anybody remember when the difference between Nikon and Canon was Nikon cameras were AV and Canon's were TV? Loved and still have my A1.


----------



## Ryan708 (Oct 15, 2012)

sometimes when I am using flash in AV mode im like "Gar, why cant I tell it I want a certain shutter speed, Just a bit faster, but not the '60' minimum in the menu. then Im like, oh yeah, and turn the dial to "M"


----------



## crasher8 (Oct 15, 2012)

bbb34 said:


> I did not ask you which camera I should buy, did I?
> Neither I am talking about the mode dial.
> 
> This is about the symmetry of the three values defining the EV, the logic of the UI to control these values, and how DSLRs should be designed.



I just reread this retort. wow.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 15, 2012)

Ryan708 said:


> sometimes when I am using flash in AV mode im like "Gar, why cant I tell it I want a certain shutter speed, Just a bit faster, but not the '60' minimum in the menu. then Im like, oh yeah, and turn the dial to "M"



Or you could force it to use the max Xsync speed (1/200 - 1/300 depending on body), in that same Min shutter speed in Av in the flash control menu...


----------



## Ryan708 (Oct 15, 2012)

the max synch speed (250 for me) is usually overkill, even 60 is too fast timetimes. I basically shoot in AV so often I feel like my camera cant do what I want. Then I remember thats what full manual is for. Its just a case of brain farts for me


----------



## bbb34 (Oct 15, 2012)

I do realize that my question is entirely irrelevant for people who never use auto-ISO. 
May I assume that there are people who use it (sometimes)?

Myself, I mostly use DSLRs in A or M mode, just like some of you have posted. But there is already a problem. 
When you say M, do you mean M or S?
When you say A, is it A or AS?

Another example: When you take pictures in M + auto-ISO (= S), there is no exposure compensation available. Why?

One more example: when I change aperture or shutter time, I can observe how the camera adjusts A, T, and S in order to keep the EV constant.
But when I change the ISO value (S), then A and T disappear from the display, and I cannot see immediately the values. Why?


I agree that this is not relevant for taking good pictures. My point is that the UI could be better. If you use M mode most of the time, that means sometimes you are not. Don't you expect a logic setup for that rare moments?

No, I am not earning my living from photography. I am a hardware designer.


@SwampYankee: yes, I had a Minolta X300 those days, all I could afford. Different automatic modes were used for market segmentation .


----------



## sanj (Oct 18, 2012)

crasher8 said:


> bbb34 said:
> 
> 
> > I did not ask you which camera I should buy, did I?
> ...



Funny retort. Let it pass, he is having a trashy day..


----------



## TAF (Oct 19, 2012)

I concur with the notion that the designers seem stuck in the film era. Your description makes sense.

I too wish they would provide greater flexibility...although the 'proper' UI, I'm not sure.

Perhaps providing a programming tool so you could set things up the way you want?

I'd gladly volunteer for a focus group (pun intended)...


----------



## bbb34 (Sep 24, 2018)

Six years later, and Canon offers what I was missing in the EOS R. They call it Fv (Flexible Mode).


----------

