# Who really is the target demographic for the 6D?



## ahsanford (Sep 17, 2012)

My friend and I have been exchanging messages back and forth about the 6D's target demographic. He would believe that this is aimed at wealthy folks who might leave the camera in an auto mode. (Hence, no need for the nicer AF of more recent systems.) I really think otherwise, that it's aimed at enthusiasts. I'm not looking to win an argument here, I'm just curious what you folks think (by demographic / bucket of people) about to whom this new rig is aimed?

I think we'd all agree that this is principally aimed at people looking to get their first FF camera. _But who are these people?_ Just spitballing here, I would guess...

Enthusiasts who always wanted FF but have always blanched at the price. This thing seems dead nuts aimed at 60D and 7D users that don't value those cameras for the APS-C length / speed but value them for being 'higher end'. (I know some sports and birding folks who love their 7D for length / speed reasons -- this would _not _be aimed at them.)
Journalism / photography students -- textbooks are still built around FF old-school 35mm film lengths and rules, right? Wouldn't APS-C multiples just foul that up?
Perhaps a just-starting-out pro photographer's choice until he makes enough money to warrant a pro rig.
_Serious _tourists / landscape fans -- people who own tripods and spend a day shooting a national park.
People who often enlarge their shots and long for better IQ over their APS-C rigs?

Personally, I think the 6D is really a 5D2 with a few nice features to buoy the price for the next 2 years. The 5D2's price would have plummeted were it left on the market and this was not released, right?

But what do you folks think? Who is this really aimed at?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 17, 2012)

Isn't obvious? Its intended to fall between the 7D and the 5D. Its a upgrade for the 60D users or even 7D owners. Its a low cost entry level FF.
Wealthy buyers will get a M9, they don't go for low end models.


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## jfretless (Sep 17, 2012)

Show up with $2100 and Canon will surely explain to you why you are the exact person they made the camera for.

After a morning of being frustrated at Canon, I'm finished trying to figure out the why's and who's of this camera. 

It's unhealthy getting worked up at company that surely does not have you in their thought process.

Oh, and more thing, what exactly a "pro rig"? How much money do I have to spend on equipment to become a pro? ...and once I cross that threshold, do I get a membership card and/or a t-shirt?

I'm certain that this camera in the hands of a "pro" is surely capable of capturing images that can make money.


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## Fishnose (Sep 17, 2012)

A number of things come to mind:

1. Compacts such as mirrorless etc are getting pretty darn good and are squeezing the market for low-end DSLRs - time for Canon and Nikon to push upwards, dragging their customers with them, to more advanced and more expensive cameras. 

2. Getting people into FF opens up the secondary market for higfh quality lenses.

3. Interest in photography has grown absolutely enormously since digital became the norm. This gives a far greater potential market.

4. China and other countries where buying power is increasing exponentially are extremely important. A wider range of models means more potential buyers climb on board.

Canon and Nikon don't care who buys their products. All money smells the same.


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## V8Beast (Sep 17, 2012)

ahsanford said:


> My friend and I have been exchanging messages back and forth about the 6D's target demographic. He would believe that this is aimed at wealthy folks who might leave the camera in an auto mode. (Hence, no need for the nicer AF of more recent systems.) I really think otherwise, that it's aimed at enthusiasts. I'm not looking to win an argument here, I'm just curious what you folks think (by demographic / bucket of people) about to whom this new rig is aimed?



I think both you and your friend are right. The 6D will appeal to both rich people that will leave it in green square mode, and some tech savvy enthusiasts. I'd consider getting one as a backup to my 5D3 if it weren't for the small form factor, but it's micro-body size is a deal breaker for me even as a backup. The 6D's AF looks very underwhelming on paper, and it's burst rate is quite lethargic, so I'll just keep my 5DC as a backup since it already has the underwhelming AF and lethargic burst rate factors covered ;D

I almost never go to my backup body, but if I do ever upgrade my 5DC, I'll skip right past the 6D and go with a 5D2 or a 1D4.


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## crasher8 (Sep 17, 2012)

It's for people who would like to buy a D600 but have too much invested in Canon glass.


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## Stewbyyy (Sep 17, 2012)

The 6D is nearly perfect for me. I'm an aspiring professional, I get most of my work photographing music events. I've been looking to upgrade from my 60D to a full frame camera for quite a while now, I'm after the improved low light performance really.

Everything about the 6D is great for me, it's a perfect upgrade from the 60D. Except the AF system... having only one cross type point seems to me like it's a worse AF system than the 60D? The 60D is fine for what I do, it manages. The only reason I never upgraded to a 5D Mark II was because of the poor AF system... I'm disappointed that Canon seem to have flopped with this AF system.


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## V8Beast (Sep 17, 2012)

crasher8 said:


> It's for people who would like to buy a D600 but have too much invested in Canon glass.



Good one ;D


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## AvTvM (Sep 17, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Wealthy buyers will get a M9, they don't go for low end models.



almost correct. Wealthy people go for Leica M -> http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/17/Leica-M-full-frame-24MP-CMOS-rangefinder-with-focus-peaking-live-view-and-1080p-movies 
Not so wealthy people get a stripped down, but still all looks Leica M-E ... http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/17/Leica-M-E-18MP-stripped-down-full-frame-rangefinder
;D

Canon 6D will be bought by family snapshooters and by old farts, who believe FF to be the holy grain, but where on APS-C up to now, because they are not wealthy enough to afford a 5D 3 or even better a Nikon D800 for only 800 more than what the pitiful 6D costs.


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## dash2k8 (Sep 17, 2012)

"2. Getting people into FF opens up the secondary market for higfh quality lenses."

I totally agree with this.

Someone else said that it's for ppl who want a D600 but invested too much in Canon glass. I agree, too. It's the Canon equivalent of the D600.

I speak from experience that the word (or words) "full-frame" has a mythical aura to it for people who've only ever used APS-C. Once they actually go FF, the novelty lasts maybe a month or so (for me, anyway) before it becomes the norm. I recall entering a vast new realm of visual freedom with my 1Ds3, then eventually took that for granted. So maybe the 6D is a cheaper fix for ppl who dream of entering said realm.


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## pdirestajr (Sep 18, 2012)

It's just another price point being offered by Canon. The 5DII will be soon discontinued leaving this as their 2k model.

I seriously dont understand all the angry/ complaining posts- every camera model that is released isn't intended to be sold to every Canon user. If it is not for you, move on.


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## Albi86 (Sep 18, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> crasher8 said:
> 
> 
> > It's for people who would like to buy a D600 but have too much invested in Canon glass.
> ...



Exactly. If you have money for such an investment in lenses, you have money for the body too. Those people are not buying a 6D.


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## ahsanford (Sep 18, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Isn't obvious? Its intended to fall between the 7D and the 5D. Its a upgrade for the 60D users or even 7D owners. Its a low cost entry level FF.
> Wealthy buyers will get a M9, they don't go for low end models.



Fair, but a number of 7D users choose it not because they can't afford FF, but because they want the _best _APS-C SLR they can buy:

1) They won't have to lug as large/expensive of a lens for a given target, or if they want their long glass to go 1.6x longer, it can.
2) They want a working AF system! The 7D AF is widely considered better than the 5D2 (and by extension, one would think this new 6D as well).
3) Is there another recent 8 FPS Canon DSLR under $2k? I'm not aware of one.
4) For some folks, the IQ that FF brings is secondary to just getting the shot.

Birders and sports guys are awfully fond of their 7D cameras from what I'm told. This shouldn't get them flipping over to FF, IMHO, as that may be the last thing they want to do.


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## ahsanford (Sep 18, 2012)

Fishnose said:


> A number of things come to mind:
> 
> 1. Compacts such as mirrorless etc are getting pretty darn good and are squeezing the market for low-end DSLRs - time for Canon and Nikon to push upwards, dragging their customers with them, to more advanced and more expensive cameras.
> 
> ...



(1) and (2) above are Canon strategic goals, but not necessarily target demos for the camera. From the user perspective, _who will want this_ with a little more description than 'people between product A and product B'?

I think (3) and (4) are excellent insights. In theory, there are so many (for example) people running around with Rebels that they are up for their 2nd or 3rd body purchase and wonder what is a step up. 

That said, I still feel this is a 5D2 with a few user-friendly upgrades.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 18, 2012)

If somebody can make a very good lens adapter (aperture/AF) so I can use a Nikon body, I'll buy D600 in an instant. I'm an enthusiast photographer who's still learning to be a professional. Right now, I'm disappointed with 6D. I'll just save my money for 5D4.


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## ahsanford (Sep 18, 2012)

pdirestajr said:


> It's just another price point being offered by Canon. The 5DII will be soon discontinued leaving this as their 2k model.
> 
> I seriously dont understand all the angry/ complaining posts- every camera model that is released isn't intended to be sold to every Canon user. If it is not for you, move on.



+1 on both points. Dead on.


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## DB (Sep 18, 2012)

As a 7D shooter I would not opt for the 6D but would rather wait and save up for a 5D mark III. But the market for xxD and xxxD is very different, in that it is populated 50:50 between photographers:videographers. These are camera owners who will put L glass on a T2i/550D and shoot videos (I had a T2i with 24-70 and 70-200 L lenses) as well as fast primes. They want to go FF primarily because their shutter speed and aperture values are manually preset when shooting video, so using the 'photographic triangle' (for exposure purposes) only ISO remains. This is where the 6D comes in, with usable 12,800 ISO. These people can now film indoors.

Secondly, as others have correctly pointed out, Canon makes a lot of money selling lenses (this past August, they sold their 80 millionth lens, having only passed the 40 millionth in April 2008 - so you see they now sell a lot more lenses than camera bodies). By getting 60D/T2i/T3i/T4i owners to sell their existing gear and trade-up to the FF 6D, Canon will achieve 2 distinct objectives (1) expand the universe of potential EF & EF-S purchasers (as there will be more DSLR shooters), and (2) encourage those new 6D owners to buy some more EF glass.

So, to cut to the chase, the target demographic is the xxD/xxxD shooter who likes to take landscape/travel photos and/or shoot HD video. Undoubtedly these are the people that Canon Inc. is targeting with this new DSLR

Finally, as an additional boon to Canon, by pricing this new camera above two thousand dollars, they also achieve a 3rd objective - they've persuaded many other xD owners (5Dc/5D2/7D) who are considering upgrading their body to bite the bullet and pay up for a new 5D mark III.


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## x-vision (Sep 18, 2012)

ahsanford said:


> But what do you folks think? Who is this really aimed at?



If you think about it, this camera is really for those who were buying the 5DII as a point-and-shoot camera. 

These buyers don't need a better AF system, since they are using a slow kit lens anyway (the 24-105 F4/L).
Everything else in the camera has been simplified too, thus making it easy to use for amateurs.

So, although marketed as an 'enthusiast' camera, the 6D is really an expensive amateur camera, appealing mostly to well-heeled amateurs. 

Enthusiasts are of course rightfully disappointed because of the basic specs. 

Canon obviously thinks that well-heeled amateurs outnumber enthusiasts.
If they are right, then the 6D will be successful, regardless that it's priced the same as the better spec'd D600. 

Only time will tell if Canon is right. 

I think, though, that Canon is misjudging the 6D market the same way they've misjudged the 60D market.
The 6D will have a tepid reception and sales will pickup only after the price drops to say $1600-1700. 
At this price all that would matter is that it's a FF shooter with a native EF lens mount.
The shortcomings of the camera would be easily forgiven.


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## distant.star (Sep 18, 2012)

.
I don't know who it's for, but I sure know who it is NOT for.

This was not designed to appeal to photographers. This is for people who want to take a few pictures once in a while.

And the ultra-dark capable AF is because once buyers realize what the have they will only use it at night when there is not as much chance of being embarrassed.


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## unfocused (Sep 18, 2012)

I'm amused by people who say Canon didn't listen to their customers because it is not the camera _they_ wanted. The problem is that Canon _did_ listen to their customers and _you_ just weren't typical of their customers.

Face it, Canon did extensive market research to determine what features people wanted and what features would sell more cameras and what features wouldn't. If there is a feature you wanted that is missing, it's not because Canon wasn't listening to customers, it is because your wants are not shared by others. 

I think the OP probably had a lot of things right. I would add that I can see it as an appealing second body for many users. At this point, I'm interested in a second body. When the 7DII comes out, I'll compare it to the 6D and decide which to go for. If the 7D is only a marginal upgrade, I may consider this. If the 7D improves on the things I want it to improve on, I'll go that route. 

The autofocus is not a major concern of mine, because the 7D is better suited for subjects where I need good autofocus. If I have the time to compose a shot carefully, a single autofocus point is sufficient. With the 6D's slow frame rate and 60% less focal length, I wouldn't be using it for action shots anyway. 

It will be an individual decision for every customer, but the beauty of modern research methods is they can take thousands of those individual opinions, aggregate them and then design a product that meets enough needs to sell. 

It's funny, everyone says they want to be an individual, but if you tell someone that no one else shares their taste, they feel left out.


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## dr croubie (Sep 18, 2012)

If it were taken on its own, it should be equal to the 7D.
Give up a bit of sealing, build quality and AF, and in return you get a shiny new FF sensor.

But, the 5D2 exists at a lower price-point, both new and used. The D600 also exists, it's a hell of a lot more camera for really not much more money.

You will buy the 6D over D600 if:
- You have a lot of EF lenses and don't have the cash/inclination to jump ship (like me).

- You have some sort of 'subconscious brand loyalty' and just won't touch Nikon with a barge-pole, for no rational reason (my sister chose between the 550/600/60D, I asked if she was considering Nikon and she just said "ugh" with no qualifier).

- Or you have a rational reason for not touching Nikon (like the 'colour', TS-E or f/1.2 lenses with no F-mount equivalent, DPP being free, etc)


And you will buy the 6D over 5D2 if:
- You're a rebel/otherwise user with a lot of cash invested in SD cards (not me).

- You're a child of FB/twitter who really has no privacy concerns about tracking your every movement and location with GPS, and actually actively want to do so (not me).

- You don't know what you want, and let a salesman tell you that a $2100 camera with a $400 lens will take better photos than an $800 camera with $1700 worth of lenses.

- Above all, you have a phobia of buying a second-hand 5D mk2, even if you can get one in perfect condition (or even new) for a lot less than the 6D new (my mum always had a saying, "never buy second-hand, you're buying someone else's problems", she never believed anyone would sell something if it still worked fine) (not me).


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## spinworkxroy (Sep 18, 2012)

I don't think it will appeal to "first" time buyers who want to turn "pro"..I believe they'd rather go for the 5D3 instead.
I doubt canon wanted the 6D in the "pro" market and compete with the 5D3 anyways.

But yes, it will appeal to 60D owners since the button layout is almost identical and the scroll wheel will be VERY familiar to 60D owners. It's basically a FF 60D if you ask me.

Will I be getting the 6D? Most likely yes, but not entirely for me. It'll make a good backup cam for sure.
Currently I use the 5D3 and i do mainly portraits and it's a hassle changing lenses sometimes and my backup now IS the 60D which i never use anymore as the backup…my wife uses it.

With the 6D, i can sell away all the APS-C lenses and we can share glass now and i already intend to use the 50mm on the 6D and the 85mm on the 5D3 so i don't have to change glass, just change cams.

So yea, i always wanted a cheaper FF that i will want as a backup and that my wife can use as well and i can't afford 2x 5d3...


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## Peter C Photography (Sep 18, 2012)

DB said:


> this past August, they sold their 80 millionth lens, having only passed the 40 millionth in April 2008



I can't get over this stat. This ramp is unreal. Very impressive


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## ahsanford (Sep 18, 2012)

dr croubie said:


> If it were taken on its own, it should be equal to the 7D.
> Give up a bit of sealing, build quality and AF, and in return you get a shiny new FF sensor.
> 
> But, the 5D2 exists at a lower price-point, both new and used. The D600 also exists, it's a hell of a lot more camera for really not much more money.
> ...



Fantastic commentary. Great perspective.

Nowhere in this thread did I consider that a 6D might be someone's first Canon, or first SLR for that matter.

In that case, for once, it truly _*is *_a direct Canon v. Nikon 'what is better' argument. (I usually dismiss that nonsense as fanboy hubris, as anyone with at least 3 lenses isn't going to jump ship without a whale of a better product on the other side.)

So in that light -- just for new SLR buyers -- it would appear:

D600's better AF + a few more MP + more feature/creature comforts (headphone jack, pop-up flash, dual cards, etc.) should trump the 6D's GPS + Wifi.... _right?_

Canon must have some compelling data that says that we gearheads want horsepower and lots of little features, but new SLR users really want convenience. If so, I think Wifi is dead on for that unmet need.


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## ahsanford (Sep 18, 2012)

spinworkxroy said:


> With the 6D, i can sell away all the APS-C lenses and we can share glass now and i already intend to use the 50mm on the 6D and the 85mm on the 5D3 so i don't have to change glass, just change cams.



+1. Another good comment. If your backup body is APS-C, you very well may have nontrivial EF-S glass, possibly the 17-55 or 10-22, which are not cheap investments. Moving entirely to FF frees up $$$ by selling glass.

Again, never thought of that. Great stuff.


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## DB (Sep 18, 2012)

Peter C Photography said:


> DB said:
> 
> 
> > this past August, they sold their 80 millionth lens, having only passed the 40 millionth in April 2008
> ...



The recent exponential growth is similar for DSLR bodies as well, with projections of 18 to 20 million interchangeable lens cameras to be sold during 2012, with another 100 million fixed-lens digital cameras (compacts etc.) also expected to be sold. Notwithstanding all of these mega numbers, of the 7 billion inhabitants of planet Earth, probably only 1-in-20 people own a serious camera ( < 5% and by serious I'm including basic Rebels like Canon's EOS 1100D and higher spec DSLR's) as distinct from camera-phones. So there still exists tremendous growth potential.


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## SJTstudios (Sep 18, 2012)

The 6d is an introduction to full frame for enthusiasts. people with a simple rebel who like portrait and landscapes can get simple features. You get good iso performance and full frame. You shouldn't need fast shutter speed or "the best focusing if you are going full frame. If so, you should go for a 1dx or 5d iii. It also gives them a chance to try wifi and gps without spending the money. This will get people buying either the 7d or the 6d. Then they will upgrade to the 5d iii or the 1dx, or the new 3d at a later time. Then they will by the wifi or gps accessories.

But, canon is pulling the wool over everyone's eyes on this one. When the "3d" comes out, pros will replace the 5d iii with that, and use the 1dx for speed there will be a lot of cheap well maintained used 5d iii is and the price will drop. Everyone with the 6d will try and upgrade. The 6d will be worth less, and amateurs with a rebel will get the 6d, so even if no one buys this now, it will sell eventually. Canon wants to have everyone jump up on full frame, and then spend money on the gps unit, wifi unit, and more l glass.

So in the final analysis, you could get screwed if you buy this, but if you're an enthusiast who wants full frame, is trying to start their own buissiness, or wants to see if this is the industry they want to try and become a pro in, this isn't such a bad camera. Plus, you could always buy a 1d mark ii, mark iii, or 50d to get the speed and focusing.


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## emag (Sep 18, 2012)

I would at least consider it. High ISO and FF image quality is right up this astrophotographer's alley. My modified 40D and vanilla 60D both mate to EF lenses, I've hesitated to buy EF-S mainly because I always expected to eventually go full frame. As an added bonus, both accept EOS Clip filters, something I'd miss with FF. I will, however, wait for a price drop.


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## Peter C Photography (Sep 18, 2012)

DB said:


> Peter C Photography said:
> 
> 
> > DB said:
> ...



Unreal but I believe it. Shift to digital has made photography so much more accessible for so many and I'm sure that feeling of accessibility will only increase as technology continues to advance. Hopefully the ability to sell more and more high end products will mean that more companies like Canon will be dumping more and more into R&D to race ahead of the competition and we'll all reap the benefits (at a price of course).


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## ahsanford (Sep 18, 2012)

emag said:


> My modified 40D and vanilla 60D both mate to EF lenses, I've hesitated to buy EF-S mainly because I always expected to eventually go full frame.



Oh snap, I didn't think of _that_, either. 

Other than the very small sliver of higher-end users that prefer APS-C for what they do (see my prior comments on birders and sports guys), won't the folks more likely to buy higher end glass also be the folks likely to go FF? Ergo, is the 6D the beginning of the end for relatively high-end EF-S glass like the EF-S 17-55 F/2.8 IS or the EF-S 10-22?


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## ronderick (Sep 18, 2012)

ahsanford said:


> Other than the very small sliver of higher-end users that prefer APS-C for what they do (see my prior comments on birders and sports guys), won't the folks more likely to buy higher end glass also be the folks likely to go FF? Ergo, is the 6D the beginning of the end for relatively high-end EF-S glass like the EF-S 17-55 F/2.8 IS or the EF-S 10-22?



That's a pretty hard question to answer, but I think the importance of the 6D would be that it will be the point for Canon's to show hands on its final stance for APS-C bodies/lenses.

With the introduction of the 6D, entry level FF under 2,000 is now a viable market. It will be interesting to see if Canon continues with manufacturing Rebel/XXD for the casual users who wants a DSLR body (which means the EF-S will continue to prosper) or whether they'll try to "shift" this market into the EOS M world (meaning goodbye EF-S, hello EF-M mounts).

My bet would be that EF-M would emerge as the winner, since the EOS-M already offers mount adapters for the bigger lenses (so those with investment in EF-S lenses could still use them) and includes the same APS-C sensors.

Now, Canon seems confident enough they can produce EF-M lenses that are way smaller than their EF-S cousins but still offers the same quality (such as the EF-S 18-55 f3.5-5.6 IS II). Whether they can make a smaller version of the top EF-S lens, it still remains to be seen. 

By the time they produce the EF-M 10-22, it'll probably be clear to everyone that the days of EF-S lenses is coming to a close.


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## daniela (Sep 18, 2012)

ahsanford said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't obvious? Its intended to fall between the 7D and the 5D. Its a upgrade for the 60D users or even 7D owners. Its a low cost entry level FF.
> ...



Agree to that


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## brianleighty (Sep 18, 2012)

distant.star said:


> .
> I don't know who it's for, but I sure know who it is NOT for.
> 
> This was not designed to appeal to photographers. This is for people who want to take a few pictures once in a while.
> ...


I'm sure I could take some great pictures with this camera. Just like I do with my 5d mark ii. There'll be plenty of PHOTOGRAPHERS taking great pictures with this camera.


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## Fishnose (Sep 18, 2012)

ahsanford said:


> Fair, but a number of 7D users choose it not because they can't afford FF, but because they want the _best _APS-C SLR they can buy



May have been true 3 years ago (but probably not) - the 7D is old technology now. Almost stone age.
Nikon D7000 and Pentax K5 are waaaay ahead.


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## Ewinter (Sep 19, 2012)

It's aimed at people like me.
It could be aimed at people who are just starting out a photography career as a pro.
For example; I have one camera, the 7d.
Currently, it's in repair.
No camera= no money. I'm looking to upgrade, the 7d iq in studio is not so good. My choices run to:
a) sell the 7d and get a 5dIII. If that's in for repair, end up with no camera and no money again.
Also, I can't get CPS with only one body.
b) get a 5dII, have less IQ from an ISO perspective, and then pay more £££ for the WiFi grip, but qualify for CPS and have a backup camera
c) get a 6d. Wifi's built in; another extra I don't have to buy. It's DIGIC 5+, which means better ISO performance. It'll nicely complement my 7d for when I need to use two cameras. I'll have a backup, and support for wireless flash if I need it.
I'm betting I'll qualify for CPS with a 6d, too, and all the EF glass I stocked up on will behave like it was really designed to.

I'd be mad to get a 5dII, or even a 5dIII.


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## netsuso (Sep 19, 2012)

Although many of you have complained about this new Canon DSLR model, I will explain my point of view, as I could be a great example of the 6D target:

- I come from a 550d (T2i) and I'd like to switch to full frame but without spending too much money, so Canon 6D seems like a reasonable option

- I don't give a shit about the number and type of AF points. I almost exclusively use the center point right now, so having 9, 11, 39, or 61 AF points makes no difference to me. I understand they are very important for some type of photography, but for me one AF point is enough for 99.5% of my photos (and please, that doesn't mean I use my camera as a point and shoot, and I never use auto modes, maybe I'm not an "enthusiast" as some people here have described them, but I am not stupid)

- I _love_ that Canon 6d uses SD cards. I own plenty SD cards from plenty of devices (not only cameras), while my most recent CF card is 256 MB and 9 years old...

- 20 Mp is more than enough for me. I would have liked 22 Mp so 1080p video could be resized from the sensor size with a /3 factor, but anyway 22-24 Mp is something I don't need in my photos.

- We are still pending of some decent reviews, but on paper Canon 6d is much better than D600 for low light photography, both for high ISO and -3 EV AF. And 70% of my photos are indoor, so this is a strong reason for me to prefer 6d over D600

- What I would have liked? Pop-up flash and 100% viewfinder coverage, but no camera is perfect... I can live without that.

- What else I don't bother about? GPS and Wifi, although my mind is changing after seeing the Smartphone remote controller for 6d... I will certainly make use of it 

So, am I the perfect buyer? Not yet... I think $2100 (which will be absurdly translated to 2100-2200€ in Europe) is still too much, but I'm assuming a price of $1700-1800 in a few months, and I can wait for that


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## DB (Sep 19, 2012)

The Canon 6D is available to order for early-December delivery in Ireland for €2199 (approx. $2880), which is still 2x the price of a T4i/650D and almost 3x the cost of a T3i/600D, so it is a bit of a financial stretch for a Rebel owner


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## psolberg (Sep 19, 2012)

no idea who this camera is for. neither do most people
http://www.theverge.com/2012/9/17/3346366/canon-6d-video-pictures-preview/in/3109719


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## Waterloo (Sep 19, 2012)

I think it was intended for the Rebel upgraders. Problem is all the Rebel owners I know (and some with 7Ds) wouldn't know the difference between a full frame camera and a crop camera if it bit them in the a$$.


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## pdirestajr (Sep 19, 2012)

I'm really tired if the "introduction to" and "upgrade to" full frame comments.

It should be "RETURN TO" full frame!!!

I have an EOS Rebel G fully plastic camera with 3 focus points that is "full frame".

The 6D will just be the most affordable Canon 35mm digital camera.

Why is this considered some type of promise land in photography?

I shoot with all different types of cameras, and the ironic part is I actually use my 7D for the majority of the "professional" work.


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## RLPhoto (Sep 19, 2012)

ahsanford said:


> My friend and I have been exchanging messages back and forth about the 6D's target demographic. He would believe that this is aimed at wealthy folks who might leave the camera in an auto mode. (Hence, no need for the nicer AF of more recent systems.) I really think otherwise, that it's aimed at enthusiasts. I'm not looking to win an argument here, I'm just curious what you folks think (by demographic / bucket of people) about to whom this new rig is aimed?
> 
> I think we'd all agree that this is principally aimed at people looking to get their first FF camera. _But who are these people?_ Just spitballing here, I would guess...
> 
> ...



For people who have more dollars than cents. :-X


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## pdirestajr (Sep 19, 2012)

And while I am ranting:

To the people saying the 6D is for "advanced point-and-shooters"...

Or just people that know how to use a camera and take a photograph.

I bought a 5DII (with it's ancient terrible focusing technology) recently from Canon for 1500(refurb new), popped it on a tripod with a 24mm f/1.4II, switched it over to Manual Focus, dialed in the hyper focal distance, and snapped away some beautiful landscape shots... All in focus! Weird. I also manage to get the auto focus to work too. Bonus!


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## dslrdummy (Sep 19, 2012)

Seems to me it's targeted at the very same people the 5DC was targeted at back in 2005, new FF owners. I was one when I bought the 5DC in 2006 (for AUD$4,200 including 24-105L). I still have it and it is a great camera with good glass (I've since added the superb 70-200L II IS). But let's look at the comparison and then assess whether the Canon hierarchy have dropped the ball as some here suggest.
The 5D was marketed by Canon (and I think generally regarded) as the world's smallest, lightest and most affordable FF DSLR. Seven years on and the 6D is a smaller, lighter, more affordable and more competent DSLR by almost any measure of specification you want to use.
The 5d is 12.8 mp, the 6D 20.2mp.
The 5D processor was a Digic II, the 6D has a Digic 5+.
The 5D body weighs 810g and measured 6x4.4x3", the 6D 770g and 5.7x4.4x2.8.
The 5D shoots continuously 3fps, the 6D 4.5fps.
The 5D's has 9pt autofocussing (with no cross-type), the 6D 11.
The 5D's LCD was 2.5" and 230k pixels, the 6D's is 3.2" 1024K.
5D ISO is 100-1600 (expandable to 50-3200) and the 6D 100-25,600 (expandable to 50-102,400).
5D has exposure compensation of +/- 2 ev, 6D has +/-5.
5D's viewfinder is 96%, 6D's is 97%.

Add to this the list of things the 6D has that the 5D doesn't - video function, liveview, touch screen, HDMI, built-in wireless, built-in GPS. I may have missed things, but the general point is that it is aimed at the same market but offers more to them at a better price (as you would expect).

I understand why some people might be disappointed with the specs, but I think we get a bit greedy some times. Proof, of course, is in the eating but, at this price, I for one will consider upgrading to the 6d from my 5dC once the detailed peformance reviews are in.


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## daniemare (Sep 19, 2012)

It for someone like me. Want to explore FF. Do not like 4 year old body (5DII). 5DIII to expensive for my abilities. Haven't upgraded bodies for 3 years, thus the OVF, MP count, FPS and AF is better than what I currently have.


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## RLPhoto (Sep 19, 2012)

dslrdummy said:


> Seems to me it's targeted at the very same people the 5DC was targeted at back in 2005, new FF owners. I was one when I bought the 5DC in 2006 (for AUD$4,200 including 24-105L). I still have it and it is a great camera with good glass (I've since added the superb 70-200L II IS). But let's look at the comparison and then assess whether the Canon hierarchy have dropped the ball as some here suggest.
> The 5D was marketed by Canon (and I think generally regarded) as the world's smallest, lightest and most affordable FF DSLR. Seven years on and the 6D is a smaller, lighter, more affordable and more competent DSLR by almost any measure of specification you want to use.
> The 5d is 12.8 mp, the 6D 20.2mp.
> The 5D processor was a Digic II, the 6D has a Digic 5+.
> ...



I've owned a 5Dc that I Ran its full shutter life into the ground and then purchased a 5D3.

Now considering that a 5Dc can be had for 500$ on craigslist, its still the best camera you can buy for around that price range but the 6D is nothing like the 5Dc a at release.

The 5Dc had no competition in its time, while the 6D has to convice users not to buy a 5D2.

The 5Dc was released as a budget FF camera and still is the Budget FF digital camera, while the 6D isn't. 

The 5Dc can still swap focusing screens, and Yes, There is a difference even with the 5D3's magnification.

The 5Dc is a Great camera but Comparing it to the 6D? Not even the same league.

The 6D is more like the 50D to 60D transition.


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## dslrdummy (Sep 19, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> I've owned a 5Dc that I Ran its full shutter life into the ground and then purchased a 5D3.
> 
> Now considering that a 5Dc can be had for 500$ on craigslist, its still the best camera you can buy for around that price range but the 6D is nothing like the 5Dc a at release.
> 
> ...


We agree that the 5DC is a great camera. Don't want to seem argumentative but not sure why you think the competition around at this time makes the 6D any less of a camera. And not sure why the 5DII, which many people have been bagging for the last year, is all of a sudden a more viable option. And when it is discontinued, as it no doubt will be shortly, what will the choices be then. 6D vs 5DIII? They are definitely not in the same league.
You can change focussing screens on the 5DC, OK, but what about the ten areas where the 6D is superior, you don't mention them.
Not in the same league? In what respects exactly? I frankly can't think of any except maybe build quality which we will have to wait and assess, but in terms of weather sealing my 5DC is pretty much hopeless so it won't have to be very good to beat it there.
And if the 6d is not a budget FF, what is it?


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## pdirestajr (Sep 19, 2012)

I believe you can change focusing screens on the 6D too!


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## Jotho (Sep 19, 2012)

I am certain trolls are not on Canon's list of potential buyers.


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## weekendshooter (Sep 19, 2012)

dslrdummy said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > I've owned a 5Dc that I Ran its full shutter life into the ground and then purchased a 5D3.
> ...



Don't feed the troll plz


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## Albi86 (Sep 19, 2012)

netsuso said:


> Although many of you have complained about this new Canon DSLR model, I will explain my point of view, as I could be a great example of the 6D target:
> 
> - I come from a 550d (T2i) and I'd like to switch to full frame but without spending too much money, so Canon 6D seems like a reasonable option
> 
> ...



Nothing personal, but I will use you to exemplify the demographic target for this camera.

You don't like the 6D, you don't think it's a good camera. It's just the only FF in Canon's lineup that you can afford, and this is why you will buy it.

All the rest is just you convincing yourself that it will be a good purchase in absolute terms. You only made a list of "I can live with...", while when I spend 2000€ I like to say "I can't wait to...".

Canon didn't bother to produce a good camera, they just produced a camera that could hit a certain market segment. They're relying on brand loyalty alone as the prime marketing factor, and probably they will succeed.

And this is all very, very sad.


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## lopicma (Sep 19, 2012)

I am still of the belief that full frames are going to be the antithesis of the new mirror-less and compact system cameras. 

As far as the Canon lineup goes... it would be nice if there were more of a price range for full frame bodies like there is for APS-C bodies. At least have beginner, intermediate and advanced lines. Heck, I dug out my _Rebel 2000_ 35mm film camera to shoot "full frame", that's how bad I want a taste of it.


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## a9000 (Sep 19, 2012)

6D is for people who don't need all the 5D3 features, the same people who are buying the 5D2 right now.

It also might be the best camera in the market for legacy/alt lens users (interchangeable focusing screens, better mirror clearance due to 97 % VF) at least until a FF NEX arrives. Although I doubt Canon had this in mind


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## Marsu42 (Sep 19, 2012)

pdirestajr said:


> I bought a 5DII (with it's ancient terrible focusing technology) recently from Canon for 1500(refurb new), popped it on a tripod



That's the 6d demography: People who would have bought a 5d2 after that has been phased out. It's for tourists (small, gps, wifi), landscape shooters (ff) and aps-c upgraders ($$$) who for some weird reason won't switch to Nikon when selling their ef-s lenses anyway. People who used the 5d2 for events as a poor man's 1d will either get the 5d3 (x-sync, shutter speed) or also switch to Nikon if they don't want to pay $3000.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 19, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> pdirestajr said:
> 
> 
> > I bought a 5DII (with it's ancient terrible focusing technology) recently from Canon for 1500(refurb new), popped it on a tripod
> ...



This is an excellent backup for professionals who are not doing sports or bird photography. The only thing that's hindering this to be a real success is its price. If it's priced between 1500 and 1700, this will surely be a smash hit. Of course for those photographers requiring more complex AF, they can go for 5D3 or just wait for the fabled 7D2.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 19, 2012)

dilbert said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > That's the 6d demography: People who would have bought a 5d2 after that has been phased out. It's for tourists (small, gps, wifi), landscape shooters (ff) and aps-c upgraders ($$$) who for some weird reason won't switch to Nikon when selling their ef-s lenses anyway.
> ...



That's why it's only the price point that's the primary source of argument. If 6D is sold around 200-300 cheaper, why not?


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## AmbientLight (Sep 19, 2012)

Regarding 6D as a backup camera I don't think it qualifies. If you consider a 1D-X as a primary camera, in my humble opinion the logical current camera choices for backup cameras are 5D Mark III and 7D, in my case I use both (mostly 5D Mark III).


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## ecka (Sep 19, 2012)

Before the annoucement I was sceptical about some of the rumored 6D specs (like different sensor, SD slot) and some of the rest were just unclear. Now when I see that "APS-C sized body" turned out to be basically the 60D body without vari-angle LCD or flash, which would add some more value and reasons to buy it over 5D2. I would prefer a vari-angle screen instead of GPS. It's not the worst, but I expected something more advanced (even if it was more expensive), a camera that would be like 60% of the 5D3, not 40%. Canon could add just a few more or better features and 6D would be a much better camera. For now, it's just too expensive to downgrade from 5D2 or even classic 5D, but in the future (after the price drop) 6D may be a good alternative for someone who cannot afford 5D series. 6D's single SD slot is really disappointing. Specially if you want to pair it with 7D or 5D series, you'll need both CF and SD memory cards, and deal with different button layout. I thought that Nikon was crazy to put the XQD slot into their D4, now I see that they are both crazy .
Who is this camera made for? - 60D lovers lusting for FF and tired of vari-angle LCD, obviously . Similar bodies, similar controls, shared SD cards...


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## unfocused (Sep 19, 2012)

ecka said:


> ...Who is this camera made for? - 60D lovers lusting for FF and tired of vari-angle LCD, obviously . Similar bodies, similar controls, shared SD cards...



I was thinking about both the Nikon and the Canon this morning and pretty much came to the same conclusion. I really don't see either one being aimed at owners of the Rebel or DXXXX series. The cost of entry is just too high. Take the Rebel for example. For around $1,000 or less, many Rebel owners have gotten a kit with a 18-55 and a 55-250 mm telephoto.

To replace that kit means an investment of at least $3,000. Many Rebel owners were probably really squeezing to get the $1,000. Now convince them they ought to "upgrade" to a $3,000 setup. And, for what? In 99% of the cases the user will see no discernible improvement in the results. 

As a 7D owner, converting to full frame has virtually no appeal to me. Would I consider buying a full frame as a second body? Maybe, but I'll wait until the 7DII comes out and see what it is like, since that is what I really would rather have. So, I don't see many 7D owners as the target market. 

So, I came to the same conclusion as ecka, the primary target market may be 60D owners. There may also be a segment of 40D and 50D holdovers who weren't willing to pay the premium for the 7D but couldn't justify the original cost of the 5DII. 

Now, I think the same factors apply to the Nikon D600 and it's not a criticism of either company. More of an academic exercise: _"Guess the Target Market."_

If there is any conclusion I would draw from this it is that, first, DSLR manufacturing efficiencies have improved sufficiently to the point that Canon and Nikon now feel comfortable developing cameras for much more targeted audiences than they could in the past and second, the DSLR market is so lucrative and desirable that all the manufacturers want to lock it up, and they are willing to give consumers as many options as possible in order to avoid leaving any customers on the table.


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## chadders (Sep 19, 2012)

DB said:


> So, to cut to the chase, the target demographic is the xxD/xxxD shooter who likes to take landscape/travel photos and/or shoot HD video. Undoubtedly these are the people that Canon Inc. is targeting with this new DSLR
> 
> Finally, as an additional boon to Canon, by pricing this new camera above two thousand dollars, they also achieve a 3rd objective - they've persuaded many other xD owners (5Dc/5D2/7D) who are considering upgrading their body to bite the bullet and pay up for a new 5D mark III.



Spot on!


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## AmbientLight (Sep 19, 2012)

I agree, too. This actually makes sense.


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## DB (Sep 19, 2012)

Actually check out this pretty decent interview that Gordan of Cameralabs did with a Canon executive at Photokina, he outright states that the 6D is not in between the 7D and 5D, but rather a budget FF for get this; "Landscape, Portrait & Travel Photographers" as it is the smallest and lightest of the FF bodies. 

Plus he also states that it is targeted @ 60D and xxxD owners (his words) etc., basically agreeing with what most of us here on CR already knew and said....

Canon EOS 6D preview interview


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## Marsu42 (Sep 19, 2012)

DB said:


> Plus he also states that it is targeted @ 60D and xxxD owners (his words) etc., basically agreeing with what most of us here on CR already knew and said....



At least good to know Canon execs didn't loose their marbles completely yet and don't try to stage the 6d vs the d600. And good to know CR speculation isn't far off the mark concerning the 6d as a tourist landscape camera. Let's hope Canon gets a grip regarding the competition soon, and that means reasonable prices and features.


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## Canon-F1 (Sep 19, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> And good to know CR speculation isn't far off the mark concerning the 6d as a tourist landscape camera.



so lets hope canon will start to make a cheap "photographer" FF camera soon....


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## Canon-F1 (Sep 19, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> Exactly. If you have money for such an investment in lenses, you have money for the body too. Those people are not buying a 6D.



nah.... there are some intelligent people who invest more in glass then in bodys. 

i have lenses that cost 3000-5000 euro but i would never spend that much on a body.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 19, 2012)

DB said:


> Actually check out this pretty decent interview that Gordan of Cameralabs



Btw, for people that don't watch the interview: He states that the 6d sensor will have the same iq as the 5d3, with the 20mp version optimized for cost. So no reason for hope here, Canon obviously expects the 6d to fall in price considerably and to be a lightweight travel (backup) body. Makes sense if you see a 5d3+70-200/2.8L maybe next to a 6d+70-300L...


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## Canon-F1 (Sep 19, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Btw, for people that don't watch the interview: He states that the 6d sensor will have the same iq as the 5d3, with the 20mp version optimized for cost. So no reason for hope here....




the IQ of the 5D MK3 is sure not bad.

but that means canon will have to live with the DXO mark shame for a bit longer. 

third class... behind sony and nikon.
but at least the most expensive..... :


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## Midphase (Sep 20, 2012)

I feel the need to chime in here and propose why I find the 6D to be exactly what I want.

First of all, I am primarily a filmmaker, and a photographer second. I currently use a 550 for my photography and have been using anything from the Red One to the 7D and 5DmkII for my filmmaking. When the 5DmkIII was announced, I was extremely excited until the price was revealed. For my personal budget, spending $3500 on a FF camera with mild video upgrades isn't justifiable when I can rent. I do however value a FF for still photography and the amazing low light video capability. For that reason I have been close to pulling the trigger on a 5DmkII for the past few months, all along held back by wanting to see what Canon's next move might be. With the T4i, I was once again disappointed with what appeared to be a repackaged T2i with a swivel screen (essentially a T3i). The auto focus on video was not particularly interesting to me.

So now the 6D comes out and at $2100 is looks very compelling. First of all, it's a FF which is slightly higher in price than the 5DmkII. Secondly, unlike the mmII, it gives me 60fps which can be useful (I wish that it was at 1080 and not 720 though). Thirdly, it promises to have improved moire and rolling shutter, definite bonus for video. It lacks a headphone jack, but I usually record audio separately anyway so that's not a deal killer for me. 

So essentially what it comes down to is that for a couple of hundred more, I get a FF camera which has current CPU technology, improves on the mkII video quality and options, and brings my photography IQ up a notch too. I do own several decent EF lenses which I will be able to use with the 6D and I am familiar with Canon which doesn't require any additional learning. 

I feel that for people like me, this is a win-win product. I know about the other options out there, like the new Panasonic GH3, or the Sony a99. I honestly don't like the feel of the video coming from both of those cameras, for lack of a better term it lacks the cinematic quality that Canon (and Nikon) cameras have. I suppose I would consider a Nikon d600, but I am not sure what that would get me for essentially the same exact price of the 6D.

I am also hopeful that a new version of Magic Lantern will unlock more functionality from this camera. Considering how much they were able to do with the 5DmkII, I hope that they will be able to eventually bring 1080p at 60fps and clean HDMI out.


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## Ryan_W (Sep 20, 2012)

It's a lot simpler than most people here are suggesting.

Canon tweeted today: "Canon Announces Its Smallest and Lightest Full-Frame Digital SLR Camera For Serious Photographers http://ow.ly/dMKHt"

In every press release and communications material regarding the 6D, Canon has used the phrase "serious photographers."

That's their target demographic. "Serious photographers." They're targeting people who feel that way. People who think that buying this camera will make them more serious. They probably already have a camera, Maybe a rebel or maybe an XXD. I think anyone who is willing to shell out $1,300+ for a 7D or 5D is already "serious." Canon is looking to upgrade the users below the $1,000 mark. 

It's a clever little camera though. It finds a sweet spot between enough features to be user-friendly and not too many to be competitive with other products or intimidating. It think it is a mistake to assume that this is a camera that will only appeal to amateur users, newcomers, or people who can't afford a "better" camera.

Leica didn't even include an AF system until 2008. That didn't stop some of the world's most renown photojournalists and photographers from using that system.

The 6D is the lightest full frame body on the market (the Leica's are small but very heavy). There's something to be said for that. It's an interesting combination of elements and I think that a lot of creative professionals will find new uses for it, especially because it will open FF photography for a new range of artists who couldn't previously afford it.


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## sushyam (Sep 20, 2012)

Fishnose said:


> A number of things come to mind:
> 
> 1. Compacts such as mirrorless etc are getting pretty darn good and are squeezing the market for low-end DSLRs - time for Canon and Nikon to push upwards, dragging their customers with them, to more advanced and more expensive cameras.
> 
> ...


http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120920/jsp/business/story_15996930.jsp
This article gives an idea as to what canon india has on mind. Low priced FF dslr should have a big market here if the caon estimate of dslr sales in the coming FY is true


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## Fishnose (Sep 20, 2012)

Canon-F1 said:


> i have lenses that cost 3000-5000 euro but i would never spend that much on a body.



So you wouldn't buy a 5D3?


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## netsuso (Sep 20, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> netsuso said:
> 
> 
> > Although many of you have complained about this new Canon DSLR model, I will explain my point of view, as I could be a great example of the 6D target:
> ...



So... I explain why I'm considering buying a Canon 6D, and why the supposed drawbacks aren't important to me, and you just say that "I don't like the 6D". Please tell me which things I like and dislike, as you seem to know them better than me 

I'm sorry, but my perfect camera (the one with the exact specifications I want and the price I want to pay for it) simply doesn't exist, and it never will. But this Canon 6d is currently the best compromise between the specs I want and the price I'm wiling to pay, so yes, I'm considering buying it just because of that.

It has nothing to do with brand loyalty (once again, you seem to know more about me than I do), because I've considered other options and they didn't convince me as much as 6D convinced me. Perhaps I don't line up with the current wave about "Canon 6D isn't worth a penny", but I think that's just because many of you are exaggerating a lot only because the camera doesn't offer exactly what you wanted. Sorry about that


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## daniemare (Sep 20, 2012)

Two things have been said repeatedly on this forum:

1 - Its all about the glass (said over and over over the years)
2 - And recently, On paper the D800 and D600 are better than the Canon equivalent, so they will advise new purchasers to buy the Nikon - cheaper/better. Especially for the D600 were APS-C users will be "switching" systems in any case.

Well for me, I will advise anyone who asks to to go with the Canon - as it is the best system to get Point No 1 cheaply. Here we have the D600 and 6D competing, and for $200 more you can get a constant aperture L lens with a better range than the kit D600. Also, I have found that the use market for Canon glass is so much better choice wise. From Canon Primes, L Lenses to 3rd Party zooms, take your pick. Want a macro, search for 2 weeks you will find one. Want a specific zoom, same thing.

So if the demographic is entry level FF for Serious photographers (for whom glass matters), I think the 6D and Canon system is spot on.


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## crasher8 (Sep 20, 2012)

I was holding out on buying a 5D3 because of the new FF coming and after spending ONE day with the 5D3 I am soooooooooo frakking glad I didn't pick up the Traveller's camera. This thing is worth it. I am amazed at the low light quality shots I got at dusk last night. ISO 8000 looked ten times better than my former 7D's 1600.


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## mattneto (Sep 21, 2012)

Good interview with a canon exec on the 6D. 

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2012/09/20/qa-with-canons-mike-owen-behind-the-scenes-in-developing-the-6D-and-whats


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## Marsu42 (Sep 21, 2012)

mattneto said:


> Good interview with a canon exec on the 6D.



Thanks for the link. He does make an interesting point of cross af points vs. low light sensitivity. What I don't really agree with is a smartphone replacing a swivel screen and the 6d as a wedding camera (1/180s x-sync for weddings, af'ing isn't good for anything if the available light shutter speed is too low). 

The most interesting fact is that Canon has no problem at all with their prices - they really seem to ignore any competition from Nikon and other manufacturers completely.


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## Albi86 (Sep 21, 2012)

Freelancer said:


> i shoot 90% in the ISO 100-800 range.



Same here. 

Looks like all of sudden people only shoot basket players playing in candle light and with a f/5.6 non-IS lens.


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## ecka (Sep 21, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> Freelancer said:
> 
> 
> > i shoot 90% in the ISO 100-800 range.
> ...



Not that anyone needs IS for sports, but I would trade my 5D2 for EOS-M with Foveon X3 sensor in it (which is only good at ISO100-200).


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## ecka (Sep 21, 2012)

Freelancer said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Not that anyone needs IS for sports, but I may trade my 5D2 for EOS-M with Foveon X3 sensor in it (which is only good at ISO100-200).
> ...



Sure. Actually, I find it to be very useful for accurate framing when using tele lenses, even in perfect lighting conditions.


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