# !!!FIRST!!! - Full Frame Mirrorless Camera



## Dylan777 (Nov 19, 2012)

1. When do you think the 1st FF mirrorless will arrive - for $3000 or less of course?

2. Which company will bring to the market first? Sony, Nikon, Samsung, Fujitsu etc….I will not bet on Canon


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## tron (Nov 19, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> 1. When do you think the 1st FF mirrorless will arrive - for $3000 or less of course?
> 
> 2. Which company will bring to the market first? Sony, Nikon, Samsung, Fujitsu etc….I will not bet on Canon


If I were to guess I would say Sony. But I am not interested. My Canon system with many lenses and 2 FF cameras (5DMkII and 5DMkIII) is more than enough.


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## RLPhoto (Nov 19, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> 1. When do you think the 1st FF mirrorless will arrive - for $3000 or less of course?
> 
> 2. Which company will bring to the market first? Sony, Nikon, Samsung, Fujitsu etc….I will not bet on Canon



Lens Rentals will have M9's for 3000$. So, very soon. ;D


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## tron (Nov 19, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> Dylan777 said:
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> > 1. When do you think the 1st FF mirrorless will arrive - for $3000 or less of course?
> ...


 ;D Unless the question becomes "When do you think the 1st FF AF mirrorless will arrive" ;D


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 19, 2012)

You do know of the Sony RX1, of course. FF and mirrorless.
Why not interchangable lenses?? Its impractical to make ultra wide with the short flange back, and a complete new 20K set of high end lenses will take years to introduce. You could adapt conventional FF lenses, of course, and that might be the only practical way.
But then, whats the point? Extreme slow AF is not for everyone.


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## Dylan777 (Nov 19, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> You do know of the Sony RX1, of course. FF and mirrorless.
> Why not interchangable lenses?? Its impractical to make ultra wide with the short flange back, and a complete new 20K set of high end lenses will take years to introduce. You could adapt conventional FF lenses, of course, and that might be the only practical way.
> But then, whats the point? Extreme slow AF is not for everyone.



I'm ok with slower AF with mirrorless. I care more about IQ in low light shooting. I travel alot and it would be nice to have a FF mirrorless plus some pancake primes 24, 35, 50 at f1.4 or bigger.

I did notice the Sony RX1 - too bad it's fixed lens :-[ I wonder if this RX1 will do well or not?


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## Dylan777 (Nov 19, 2012)

tron said:


> Dylan777 said:
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> > 1. When do you think the 1st FF mirrorless will arrive - for $3000 or less of course?
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Tron, 
I visit CMs in Asia 5-6 times per year. It's nice to have FF mirrorless for travel


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## tron (Nov 19, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> tron said:
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?


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## Positron (Nov 19, 2012)

tron said:


> Dylan777 said:
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According to Wikipedia, among other things CM could stand for Certified Midwife.


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## Minh Nguyen (Nov 19, 2012)

I work at Sony Electronics. 

Yea we've got FF Mirrorless already. 

We're often times the first to market or very early to market. I remember announcing the world's lightest laptop 6 months before the first macbook air. Even after the launch of the AIR our's was still the thinnest and lightest but did anyone know haha? I remember carrying the world's first OLED TV to a convention in Las Vegas. We never advertised it though, the images were stunning and the design was sleek. 2 years later Samsung made a huge TV ad campaign and without saying it made it sound like they were the first to make the OLED TVs. And their TV was IDENTICAL to our aesthetically, they basically took our tv and rebadged it as a samsung. I think that's my biggest frustration with this company. We don't advertise anything and unless you're really looking for a product you would never know we made it. I'm so tired of watching great products get launch with zero visibility.

Just wanted to release some steam about the biggest issue that irks me about Sony. Other than that the company is awesome, they treat us real well, we get good discounts and the work culture here is great (I knew a few people who worked at Samsung that we're very happy).


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## CowGummy (Nov 19, 2012)

Minh Nguyen said:


> ...We don't advertise anything and unless you're really looking for a product you would never know we made it. I'm so tired of watching great products get launch with zero visibility.



hmmm... not sure about this statement. Sony doesn't advertise their products you say? I am seeing an awful lot of PS3/ Vita adverts around at the moment. What about their smartphones? Never seen an Experia Play advert anywhere? The Vaio laptop range?

Just saying... Don't get me wrong I'm not bashing you or the company you work for - I own and love a lot of sony products, but that statement somehow doesn't wash with me.


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## And-Rew (Nov 19, 2012)

CowGummy said:


> Minh Nguyen said:
> 
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> > ...We don't advertise anything and unless you're really looking for a product you would never know we made it. I'm so tired of watching great products get launch with zero visibility.
> ...



Yeah, i know - does sound fishy 

I mean, it's like a company who would invent a Desktop PC Computer and then fail to patent it, and all the technology in it because they only wanted to see what was achievable.

I mean, it's not like *Xerox* is a big company that likes to shout about its products - can't think they'd ever shoot themselves in the foot like ;D ;D ;D


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## Dylan777 (Nov 19, 2012)

Positron said:


> tron said:
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CM = Contract Manufacture

Certified Midwife ;D ;D ;D


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## Quasimodo (Nov 19, 2012)

Minh Nguyen said:


> I work at Sony Electronics.
> 
> Yea we've got FF Mirrorless already.
> 
> ...



I guess that you feel that they are not winning the AD war, but they are there. Nice to meet an employee of the great company of Akio Morita!


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## jrista (Nov 19, 2012)

Minh Nguyen said:


> I work at Sony Electronics.
> 
> Yea we've got FF Mirrorless already.
> 
> ...



Ummm...*OLED* TVs? Or _LED_ TVs? As far as I know, NO ONE has yet produced an actual _OLED_ TV. There are LED TVs, and I think there may be a couple extremely high end RGB-LED TVs with 12-bit color support...but I have not yet heard of an OLED TV. That is definitely the next step, but if Sony gets there before Samsung, I'll be very surprised. If you are indeed serious, then I very seriously doubt you work for Sony.


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## sandymandy (Nov 19, 2012)

There is Sony XEL for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_XEL-1

OLED is just not mainstream yet thats why u didnt hear much about it


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 19, 2012)

sandymandy said:


> There is Sony XEL for example.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_XEL-1
> 
> OLED is just not mainstream yet thats why u didnt hear much about it


Sony released the small OLED TV about 3 years ago, high priced, and apparently either did not sell, or the technoloogy wasn't ready. Right now, Samsung is in the drivers seat with huge profits while Sony is borrowing money to develop their products. There is going to be a big fallout coming, Sharp is almost dead, Panasonic and Sony are hurting badly. Its not a good time to be producing TV sets that sell for below cost.
Sony has a long way to go if they want to convince professional photographers that they are serious. 
They have a reputation for dropping products and support for them, which really does make a pro wonder about their comittment to service of the product. 
There is no IQ advantage to mirrorless, its about size and weight. If you have FF and have to use a lens adapter, the size and weight advantage mostly goes away. If you put out a $3k FF point and shoot, it becomes obsolete after 3-5 years, and not a good place to put your money. Bodies come and go, but good glass should last for 20 years or more.


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## Woody (Nov 20, 2012)

The biggest problem with Sony interchangeable lens cameras now? Where are their E-mount lenses? Range is rather limited....


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## dr croubie (Nov 20, 2012)

tron said:


> RLPhoto said:
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It's not that the M9 doesn't have AF, it barely even has MF for non-M-mount lenses that don't have a rangefinder coupling. (Of course, there's always "look at the scale and guesstimate with f/8", but if you're going to do that, I bought a Bessa L).

Now, how long will it take for the new M (ie M10) to come down to $3000? Even ex-rental like LR's M9s on sale?
I'd say that's more likely than a FF Mirrorless with a new shorter-flange and more compact-body.
We're more likely to see a FF mirrorless with a standard EF-mount 44mm-flange (like the Pentax K-01, but FF).

It's not that easy to make a FF sensor work with a shorter flange-distance like on NEX and m4/3. The Angle of Incidence is just too great, Leica made it work (just) with a fancy patented microlens thingummy and some firmware hacks (try seeing what happens when you put a Voigtlander Skopar 21mm on an M9, before and after the firmware-update that came out conveniently at the same time).

Mirrorless is the future, yes. But my predictions for the current near-future are definitely only aps-c in tiny-bodies, FF will always be for the big-bodies (mirror or not).


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## jrista (Nov 20, 2012)

sandymandy said:


> There is Sony XEL for example.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_XEL-1
> 
> OLED is just not mainstream yet thats why u didnt hear much about it



Well, it's no surprise no one knew about it. Its a joke...practically microscopic in size, with an oddball resolution, and a truly hideous design. If I was Sony, I wouldn't have even bothered releasing the thing. That's like being one of those idiots who always has to post "First" in every forum they come across...just to be...first. I'd barely qualify that thing as a TV, and while Sony may have been the first to market with some kind of OLED device that might possibly stand in as a TV for some dude somewhere in the world...its kind of a stretch. Give me a nice 52" HD TV with OLED technology that produces a better quality picture than LED technology does, and then you can call "FIRST!"


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## bycostello (Nov 21, 2012)

ah.. you got me excited then i though it was here already.... considering how slow and how bad the M is i don't think it will be canon


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## tron (Nov 21, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Bodies come and go, but good glass should last for 20 years or more.


+100000


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## RobPan (Nov 21, 2012)

[Bodies come and go, but good glass should last for 20 years or more. ]

Hmmm... my body is already over 73 years old. My glasses, however are about one year old and will need replacement in around two years time.


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## tron (Nov 21, 2012)

RobPan said:


> [Bodies come and go, but good glass should last for 20 years or more. ]
> 
> Hmmm... my body is already over 73 years old. My glasses, however are about one year old and will need replacement in around two years time.


 ;D ;D I guess the glasses are not "L" though...


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## Dylan777 (Nov 21, 2012)

bycostello said:


> ah.. you got me excited then i though it was here already.... considering how slow and how bad the M is i don't think it will be canon



Sorry about that


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## Edwin Herdman (Nov 21, 2012)

Remember Canon's SedTVs? Yeah, somebody carried the first (real) SedTV to an event for Canon, too. It won't arrive on store shelves soon, if ever, of course, since they essentially dropped the technology.


tron said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
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> 
> > Bodies come and go, but good glass should last for 20 years or more.
> ...


I guess most of my glass is ready for an update then (and I wouldn't complain - especially with the 50mm)...


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## wickidwombat (Nov 22, 2012)

tron said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
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> > Bodies come and go, but good glass should last for 20 years or more.
> ...



too true, for example the 600 f4.5 FD lens i got in perfect condition still has great image quality even on 5Dmk2 mk3 and the crop of the EOS M so it would seem these good quality old lenses are capable of resolving and producing nice images.


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## ageha (Nov 22, 2012)

jrista said:


> sandymandy said:
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> > There is Sony XEL for example.
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Why would anyone buy an OLED TV? The lifespan is too short, doesn't make any sense. Otherwise you would have seen bigger OLED TVs already.


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## CharlieB (Nov 22, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> 1. When do you think the 1st FF mirrorless will arrive - for $3000 or less of course?
> 
> 2. Which company will bring to the market first? Sony, Nikon, Samsung, Fujitsu etc….I will not bet on Canon



It is over twice that price, and its made by Leica. Its called the M9.


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## sarangiman (Nov 22, 2012)

Minh Nguyen said:


> I work at Sony Electronics.
> 
> Yea we've got FF Mirrorless already.
> 
> ...



Hi Minh,

I must say I agree with you re: your advertisement comments. For example:

[list type=decimal]
[*]The Sony RX100 has a bounce flash built into it. Really sets it apart from other P&S cameras (save for an Olympus one; I can't remember the model). Why wasn't this advertised? It's not even listed as a feature at all on the official features/specs page!
[*]Sony makes the world's best CMOS sensors. Why not flaunt this for the Sony cameras that have this high dynamic range/low noise? Some of Sony's sensors are practically ready for the ISO-less revolution (if it ever comes)!
[*]Whatever happened to that really cool 84" projection screen that was matched to reflect the RGB primaries of a paired projector while rejecting all other wavelengths? Such a cool idea... a prototype was demonstrated years ago... never heard anything else about it.
[/list]

I love the fact that you guys make & push cool new technology horizons. It can often be high risk (RX1, e.g., albeit that's probably a stepping stone to another product coming soon...), but can be highly rewarding. For those of us that care about quality, I must say I, for one, really appreciate the work Sony's doing. Be it Blu-Ray, 4k, SXRD, high DR/low read noise CMOS sensors, 1" sensor pocketable P&S (RX100 was one of Time's top 25 inventions of 2012!!), the list goes on.

Never considered myself a fanboy of any company... but Sony comes close.

Just don't get me started on the subpar lenses Sony's been putting on its HW30/HW50 line of projectors... good grief. Why take a great tech like SXRD & mar it like that!


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## LostArk (Nov 22, 2012)

After moving to FF, I'll never buy into a smaller format ILC system. Further, I'd never buy an ILC camera without a rangefinder. No EVF will ever be "good enough." Since I'll never be able to afford a Leica (not to mention lenses lol), I can only conclude I'll never buy a mirrorless ILC. All that being said, I'm saving up for an RX1. That s*** is the ultimate.


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## dolina (Nov 22, 2012)

Sony's A-mount SLT is 'technically' a mirrorless. Demount the lens from the body and you will see the A99's full frame immediately.

I was looking at the Leica M but since getting the 40/2.8 Pancake of Canon the requirement waned.

I wish Canon's EOS M was the first sub-$3000 FF mirrorless but I guess Canon was trying to improve profit margins with their APS-C sensors.


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## verysimplejason (Nov 22, 2012)

dolina said:


> Sony's A-mount SLT is 'technically' a mirrorless. Demount the lens from the body and you will see the A99's full frame immediately.
> 
> I was looking at the Leica M but since getting the 40/2.8 Pancake of Canon the requirement waned.
> 
> I wish Canon's EOS M was the first sub-$3000 FF mirrorless but I guess Canon was trying to improve profit margins with their APS-C sensors.



+1. Sony has already the first full frame mirrorless Camera with AF and interchangeable lenses. The only thing missing I think is the typical mirrorless form factor. A99 even have a great AF and a very good viewfinder already. Counting the available Zeiss lenses, the realization of a full-frame with great AF, great lenses, small form factor and mirrorless isn't that far off with Sony. Sony, please make your A99 smaller...


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## LostArk (Nov 22, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> dolina said:
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> > Sony's A-mount SLT is 'technically' a mirrorless. Demount the lens from the body and you will see the A99's full frame immediately.
> ...



Correct me if I'm wrong, but one can't simple "make the A99 smaller." α mount lenses, like all SLR lenses, are designed with a large flange focal distance to accomodate the mirror. For this reason, a mirrorless α mount camera couldn't be much smaller than an SLR. A full frame mirrorless camera would need a brand new mount, as I reckon hell would freeze over sooner than Sony would make an M mount camera.


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## verysimplejason (Nov 22, 2012)

LostArk said:


> verysimplejason said:
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Make the adapter integrated to the camera body... It's just that I don't know how much it can make the camera smaller. It may not be pocketable but certainly smaller than an SLR. Imagine an RX1 with something like this in the camera body...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-EOS-Lens-Adapter-Fujifilm-X-Pro1-Xpro1-/400303328316


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## Dylan777 (Nov 23, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> dolina said:
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> > Sony's A-mount SLT is 'technically' a mirrorless. Demount the lens from the body and you will see the A99's full frame immediately.
> ...



I don't see how you can put that Sony FF mirrorless in pocket ??? Unless, you carry a purse with you ;D


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## verysimplejason (Nov 23, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> verysimplejason said:
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It's not pocketable that's why I have also highlighted that fact. However, we've seen already what Sony can do with RX1. Putting the interchangeable lenses on its body will require it to bulge a little bit more. I doubt that it will be pocketable unless they create a new mount and an adapter much like what EOS-M had done.


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