# New Cinema EOS Above the C300?



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 10, 2012)

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<strong>A higher end C300?


</strong>There is some thought that we may be seeing a new Cinema EOS video camera announced or shown at NAB instead of the 4K DSLR.</p>
<p>It’s rumoured to be priced in the $30K  range. No specs were given, but this info also appeared <a href="https://twitter.com/#!/MNS1974/statuses/189542920385339393" target="_blank">on a twitter feed</a> with a price mentioned over $35K.</p>
<p>I will say, information about a 4K DSLR has been hard to come by so far.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## Matsuoka (Apr 10, 2012)

Canon is at full throttle on the video front..
GREAT


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## JR (Apr 10, 2012)

I wish they would be full throttle on delivering already announced camera instead of annoucing new one :-[

I guess this one will not be for me.


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## leGreve (Apr 10, 2012)

35K eh.... good luck Canon. The price point on the C300 was ridiculos compared to functionality, can't help wonder why it should be any better on any new camera.

Look at Sony (FS700 for 8K)... and let's see what Panasonic throws out there in 4-5 days.


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## preppyak (Apr 10, 2012)

leGreve said:


> 35K eh.... good luck Canon. The price point on the C300 was ridiculos compared to functionality, can't help wonder why it should be any better on any new camera.
> 
> Look at Sony (FS700 for 8K)... and let's see what Panasonic throws out there in 4-5 days.


Well, if Canon is putting out a camera for $30-35k, then it better compete with and come damn close to Arri's Alexa (2k, dynamic range of film, etc). It certainly has to beat the Red Epic by a good amount.

That said, its still a small niche camera. But, I imagine some of the tech would trickle down to an EOS 4k camera, so, it's at least worth watching for that reason.


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## bsbeamer (Apr 10, 2012)

IF that is the release price, it better have features that blow away the RED ONE ($25k) and RED EPIC ($34-40k) in many areas, or else it's not going to be received well. Yes, it will sell units just because it's a Canon release, but new releases like the Sony FS700 ($8k) look amazing. Even the currently available Sony FS100 ($5k) is stealing some of the market and the results look VERY good.

The C300 is priced competitively with RED SCARLET ($16k) and the feature set comparison is something to really think about if purchasing, especially if you are just looking at 1080p delivery. I'd expect this "Cinema EOS" release to be something that needs to directly compete with the RED ONE/RED EPIC if the $35k price is true. Even competing against the Sony CineAlta and Panasonic Varicam market - both of which could be due for updated releases at NAB, though their prices are traditionally in the $60k-90k range.

Overall, production budgets have been getting slashed heavily over the past 2-3 years across the board. Even the major cinema releases have started to cut back a little bit to increase their profits. Producers (and their clients) are more price conscious than ever. I'm not suggesting to make it cheap just to satisfy the market, but they either want to sell to a niche market with a high(er) price, or dominate the market with a lower price - and it looks like they've made their decision already.

If only someone would make a really good EF/EF-S lens mount for the FS700/FS100...


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## jlev23 (Apr 10, 2012)

bsbeamer said:


> IF that is the release price, it better have features that blow away the RED ONE ($25k) and RED EPIC ($34-40k) in many areas, or else it's not going to be received well. Yes, it will sell units just because it's a Canon release, but new releases like the Sony FS700 ($8k) look amazing. Even the currently available Sony FS100 ($5k) is stealing some of the market and the results look VERY good.
> 
> The C300 is priced competitively with RED SCARLET ($16k) and the feature set comparison is something to really think about if purchasing, especially if you are just looking at 1080p delivery. I'd expect this "Cinema EOS" release to be something that needs to directly compete with the RED ONE/RED EPIC if the $35k price is true. Even competing against the Sony CineAlta and Panasonic Varicam market - both of which could be due for updated releases at NAB, though their prices are traditionally in the $60k-90k range.
> 
> ...


you can get an epic for 34k???
as far as i know the body only is 58k and by the time you have what you need to make it run its 70k.
a higher end canon camera makes sense to me actually, not that consumers will buy it, but rental houses will and we will rent it, that is if does things as good as an alexa.
i predict there will be no 4k dslr announced at NAB and if there is one finally announced at some point this year it will be 10-12k and probably not shoot 22mp stills, but more like 8mp.


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## Shawn_Lights (Apr 10, 2012)

If this is true, Canon would be stupid to not have another camera to satisfy people who're looking at the $5k - $7k range.

It would truly be stupid, Sony will grab the market easily. Also don't sleep on Panasonic. That AF100 is due for an upgrade.


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## bp (Apr 10, 2012)

If true, it's obviously not aimed at the same segment that would be considering a FS700 - this would be aimed at the high end - F65/Alexa/etc. Canon does have a gaping hole in their lineup in this range, so it makes sense.


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## preppyak (Apr 10, 2012)

jlev23 said:


> you can get an epic for 34k???
> as far as i know the body only is 58k and by the time you have what you need to make it run its 70k.


http://www.red.com/store/epic

$34k for the body, $58k for the full package. That said, if Canon's offering is like the C-300, it doesn't take an extra $20k to make the camera work and be useful, so a camera priced at $35-40k would be cheaper than the Red by a good amount.


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## laco (Apr 10, 2012)

leGreve said:


> 35K eh.... good luck Canon. The price point on the C300 was ridiculos compared to functionality, can't help wonder why it should be any better on any new camera.
> 
> Look at Sony (FS700 for 8K)... and let's see what Panasonic throws out there in 4-5 days.



If you want to know why the C300 worths it's price, read all of this: http://carousel.hu/c300/
The C300 is perfect for easy post-production, with a very-very decent codec.

The camera you wrote - the Sony FS700 - records with a bitrate of 28Mbps.....


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## gene_can_sing (Apr 10, 2012)

Canon would make way more money with the 4K EOS that a new, 35k camera. Just release what most people need.

Canon's video offerings have been TERRIBLE. They release the way overprice c-300, then the 5D3 was pretty much a disappointment for video. The C-300 is going to obsolete very quickly with Sony's 4K release.

I was really hoping for the 4K EOS at NAB. If it's not announced, I'm going to be forced to go down the Sony route, especially now that you can use ALL eos lenses on Sony with the electronic Metabones adaptor.

But yeah, I really wish Canon would just release what their consumers have wanted for a long time now. A good Video / DSLR hybrid.

Sony really listened to their customers, and they are about to sell a lot of cameras with their upcoming 4K camera. According to an article I read with some F-700 beta-testers, Sony initially sat down a number of established film and video people, and asked them what they wanted in a video camera and then delivered. I know Canon doesn't do that.

Canon has really fallen behind in the large sensor video market which they basically owned. Major marketing mistakes and greed have and will cost Canon major market share unless they get out the 4K EOS.

Sony has a LOT more money than Canon and it looks like they are aiming to take Canon out, which they can easily do since they actually LISTEN to their customers and are releasing state of the art tech, unlike Canon.


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## HurtinMinorKey (Apr 10, 2012)

Shawn_Lights said:


> If this is true, Canon would be stupid to not have another camera to satisfy people who're looking at the $5k - $7k range.
> 
> It would truly be stupid, Sony will grab the market easily. Also don't sleep on Panasonic. That AF100 is due for an upgrade.



I agree with you, but I think there may be a bit of a turf war going on between their camcorders and CINEMA EOS team. A $5K 4K cinema DSLR would probably cause the Canon camcorder guys to draw their Katana blades.


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## Fandongo (Apr 10, 2012)

That's the stupidest price ever.
It better shoot 8k @ 40,000fps.


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## bp (Apr 10, 2012)

Guys.... seriously.... a $35k-$49k camera would IN NO WAY be meant to compete with a $8K camera. It would be aimed at the $50k to $100k high end market. 

If you're the owner of a production studio, and were recently considering purchasing a Sony F65, or an Arri Alexa, or even a RED Epic setup, this announcement would pique your interest. If the FS700 announcement made you drool, this is obviously not meant for you. This is just funny.

Do you think Canon has no interest in catering to bigtime studios as well as the indie crowd?


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## SPG (Apr 10, 2012)

I'm not in the market for a $35,000 camera, but I don't mind if Canon makes one. I'd still like to see some action in the under $5,000 end of the C series. 


gene_can_sing said:


> Sony has a LOT more money than Canon and it looks like they are aiming to take Canon out, which they can easily do since they actually LISTEN to their customers and are releasing state of the art tech, unlike Canon.


Sony may be a larger company than Canon, but Sony as a whole is not profitable right now. Canon is. That makes a bigger difference for R&D budgets. I welcome every company that makes a good product and keeps the competition alive. Not that I'm going to buy all of them (I ain't no Phillip Bloom) but the fact that they exist makes it more likely that an even better camera will be right around the corner.


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## gene_can_sing (Apr 10, 2012)

SPG said:


> but the fact that they exist makes it more likely that an even better camera will be right around the corner.



But that's the BIG problem with Canon right now is that everyone keeps thinking that a good camera is "Right around the corner," and they have repeatedly FAILED to deliver time and time again.

The moire started with the 5D2 and continued with the 7D, 60D, T2i and T3i.

Then they release the WAY overprice C-300. Then the 5D3 has a really soft video image.

People are sick of waiting. Canon needs to release the 4K EOS right NOW or else Sony is really going to clean them up. My cut off is NAB. I don't want to go Sony, but I am going to have too if Canon doesn't release anything


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Apr 10, 2012)

leGreve said:


> 35K eh.... good luck Canon. The price point on the C300 was ridiculos compared to functionality, can't help wonder why it should be any better on any new camera.
> 
> Look at Sony (FS700 for 8K)... and let's see what Panasonic throws out there in 4-5 days.



Wouldn't they be better off adding zebra stripes, focus peaking and a truly crisp 1920x1080 2x2 sampled 1.6x crop video mode to the 5D3 and then getting raves about that and having the 5D3 fly off shelves like mad to video people again rather than try to release the sorts of many $$$$$$$$$ video cams that are already out there and where it will be hard to actually stand out?


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## JR (Apr 10, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> leGreve said:
> 
> 
> > 35K eh.... good luck Canon. The price point on the C300 was ridiculos compared to functionality, can't help wonder why it should be any better on any new camera.
> ...



I think there might be an internal struggle at Canon between the photo group and video group which are still 2 different group i beleive. Theyy probably both try to pull the stings towards them but that could get dangerous. Not sure there is a market for too many different model. I would prefer the approach like you suggest to make a few product that stand out, kill competition in that segement and completely dominate it. Now the risk is they may be diluting the final product, splitting features between different models...


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## Ed_5D (Apr 10, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> <div name="googleone_share_1" style="position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;"><glusone size="tall" count="1" href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/04/new-cinema-eos-above-the-c300/"></glusone></div><div id="fb_share_1" style="float: right; margin: 0 0px 0 10px;"><a name="fb_share" type="box_count" share_url="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/04/new-cinema-eos-above-the-c300/" href="http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php">Share</a></div><div><script src="http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/connect.php/js/FB.Share" type="text/javascript"></script></div><div class="tweetmeme_button" style="float: right; margin-left: 10px; margin-bottom: 70px;"><a class="tm_button" rel="&style=normal&b=2" href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/04/new-cinema-eos-above-the-c300/"></a></div>
> <strong>A higher end C300?
> 
> 
> ...



I don't see why Canon would do that... @35k?? I mean... have you seen the specs on the new sony FS-700?? It's like even the C-300 looks pointless @ $16K when compared to the Fs-700 that has all the same gimmicks PLUS 240FPS at full 1080P under $10K
So my guess is that Canon will announce a camera that costs as much as a RED EPIC but doesn't match or surpass its specs.
The c300 for $16K is under specced. it lacks hi speed... for cinema a camera without high speed is crippled... I mean, they want to step up into the world of digital cinema "The story begins..." blah blah blah... but the story was born wrong.


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## Ed_5D (Apr 10, 2012)

preppyak said:


> leGreve said:
> 
> 
> > 35K eh.... good luck Canon. The price point on the C300 was ridiculos compared to functionality, can't help wonder why it should be any better on any new camera.
> ...



Close to ALEXA? good luck with that.... ALEXA is in a class by its own... not even EPIC goes there... you have to work with it and the do the Post Production process to know what i'm talking about here... Alexa is worth every penny. It is like a really amazing Film Cinema Camera simulator... just amazing... the dynamic range, organic film grain and image quality in general vs. the weight of the files is just... jaw dropping.
With EPIC what you might be saving on camera equipment you must invest in post production infrastructure because of the stupidly heavy data it outputs... and without proxys (as in red one) is almost impossible to manage.


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## bp (Apr 10, 2012)

I think maybe CR should stick to consumer-to-semi-pro-level rumors, because it seems like people don't get that this would be a whole different level of camera. Post after post comparing this rumor to the FS700 - haha

In other news, Nissan Europe may develop a new Formula One car, priced at $800K... and the verdict from the CR crowd is that it is way overpriced compared to the upcoming Scion FR-S, and Nissan should just improve the Altima first. ???


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## preppyak (Apr 10, 2012)

laco said:


> If you want to know why the C300 worths it's price, read all of this: http://carousel.hu/c300/
> The C300 is perfect for easy post-production, with a very-very decent codec.
> 
> The camera you wrote - the Sony FS700 - records with a bitrate of 28Mbps.....


I think that is part of what people are missing is that these cameras are a small part of the production process. Most places aren't even buying them, they rent. If the C300 workflow is much simpler than the RED Scarlett, then it doesn't matter which costs less, you'll save thousands in labor costs since you're editing will go faster. If it handles low-light better, you'll save money that would have been spent on gaffers and grips and lights. Especially in comparison to RED, where you have to double your costs with all their proprietary crap.

I can probably count on my hands the number of shots at taken at more than 60fps that I've seen on TV in the last 6 months. Aside from the Discovery channel show where they slo-mo things exploding. You dont need 4k @ 240fps when your finished product is broadcast at 720 and your show is people talking in an apartment.


Ed_5D said:


> Close to ALEXA? good luck with that.... ALEXA is in a class by its own... not even EPIC goes there... you have to work with it and the do the Post Production process to know what i'm talking about here... Alexa is worth every penny. It is like a really amazing Film Cinema Camera simulator... just amazing... the dynamic range, organic film grain and image quality in general vs. the weight of the files is just... jaw dropping.


Yeah, I kind of figure they won't get all the way there, but, I think that is the way they would go. They don't seem to care to play the jaw-dropping spec game; they take the more practical approach. I doubt they'll get to the dynamic range that Alexa has (which is just nuts), but, if they can improve the workflow compared to competitors, its a way to corner the market


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## Bob Howland (Apr 10, 2012)

bp said:


> I think maybe CR should stick to consumer-to-semi-pro-level rumors, because it seems like people don't get that this would be a whole different level of camera. Post after post comparing this rumor to the FS700 - haha
> 
> In other news, Nissan Europe may develop a new Formula One car, priced at $800K... and the verdict from the CR crowd is that it is way overpriced compared to the upcoming Scion FR-S, and Nissan should just improve the Altima first. ???



Maybe you should read this: http://www.eoshd.com/content/7767/canon-c300-versus-arri-alexa-on-game-of-thrones Here's a quote from that posting: "The big story here is just how mind-blowingly good mass produced low cost technology is getting."


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## HurtinMinorKey (Apr 10, 2012)

Ed_5D said:


> preppyak said:
> 
> 
> > leGreve said:
> ...



But there are also people who say that the c300 produces more accurate colors right out of the camera. This can be a huge deal for keeping costs down. 

I think people are so riled up because the 5d mk iii was so blatantly nerfed, and it's gonna take them a while to get over it. All the hardware is there, all they need to do is re-work the firmware.


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## Minnesota Nice (Apr 10, 2012)

I'll sell my kidney and other non vital body parts to get a 4K camera that can film at least at 120fps.


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## bp (Apr 10, 2012)

Bob Howland said:


> Maybe you should read this: http://www.eoshd.com/content/7767/canon-c300-versus-arri-alexa-on-game-of-thrones Here's a quote from that posting: "The big story here is just how mind-blowingly good mass produced low cost technology is getting."



No argument there - you can now get 98% of the way there for under $10k, and maybe in the example above, 99% for $15k... which is indeed mind blowing. But there will always be the big boys, who are willing to pay 10x the price for that last percent. I was simply pointing out that if this camera rumor is true, it's most likely aimed at those big boys, not at those of us who are happily riding the wave of mass produced low cost technology.


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## Musouka (Apr 10, 2012)

gene_can_sing said:


> Sony has a LOT more money than Canon and it looks like they are aiming to take Canon out, which they can easily do since they actually LISTEN to their customers and are releasing state of the art tech, unlike Canon.



Canon spends around $4bn (using the exchange rate of 80 Yen per USD) in R&D annually (link) which translates into 8-9% of their net sales. Sony spend around $5.65bn which is around 6% if I'm not mistaken (PDF link page 38). Sony is involved in more industries than Canon so it's spread across more fileds. I was surprised that Canon has more employees (197K) than Sony (168K). 

Sony net sales for Fiscal 2010 (7,181,300 million yen) were almost double that of Canon (3,706,901 million yen). However, they posted a loss of 259,585 million yen (after taxes) compared to a net profit of 246,603 million yen for Canon (after taxes). If you look at pages 54-5, you will see that the CPD arm is the least profitable (despite it accounting for over 50% of the total revenue) 

Sony is facing difficult times ahead financially with a revised forecast of $6.4bn in net losses.

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/11revision_sony.pdf

They would be able to cover those with their $8bn in cash reserves (as of March 31, 2011) and are expecting to return to profitability by April 2013 (estimated $2.2bn in profits).

While I'm not sure how that would affect their camera divisions, rumor has it that they are laying off 10,000 people (that's being denied, however) or 6% of their workforce. Half of these is expected to come from a Chemical business they are selling, however.

The strong Yen is hurting both and it's only showing signs of weakening recently:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/market_moves.html


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## gene_can_sing (Apr 10, 2012)

I think the point most people are making is that Canon NEEDS to take care of their core video customers, which they have NOT been doing. I can afford up to an $8K camera, but I want Canon to release something worth buying, which is NOT the underspec'd / overpriced C-300.

Canon needs to get back to their core customers because they are losing them fast to Sony because of the current F-100.

A $35K camera is going to do most of their customers no good and will just leave us hanging AGAIN.

Stop this non-sense Canon and just release a decent mid range price video offering.


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## Shnookums (Apr 10, 2012)

A super video camera? I don't care... But it will probably be out before the 1Dx...


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## psolberg (Apr 10, 2012)

makes sense. nobody needs 4K in the consumer space. The 5DmkIII isn't even able to resolve true 1080p much less will canon do an affordable 4K body. 4K is all for high end productions that are eating up REDs like there is no tomorrow.


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## Chad (Apr 11, 2012)

Well, it's not the news i hoped to see when i came to Canon Rumors today. It's nice they're making a camera for that niche though. 

I'm still looking for a large sensor video camera around $7-8k, and i hope to buy by the end of the year. So far, the Sony FS-700 looks like exactly what i'd want, specs wise, but i was hoping Canon would step in there with a similar offering. 

Everyone is saying "4k, 4k!" but i'm not even worried about that right now. I'd be all over that C-300, maybe a C-100 if it was priced around $8k, but i guess i'm hoping for too much!


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## HurtinMinorKey (Apr 11, 2012)

How come this wasn't given a rumor rating? That guy who tweeted this information is a total clown. That being said, the c300 stats would make more sense if they were planning on something 4k high end. The c300 becomes the tv production camera, the c*** ends up as the camera for films.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Apr 11, 2012)

bp said:


> I think maybe CR should stick to consumer-to-semi-pro-level rumors, because it seems like people don't get that this would be a whole different level of camera. Post after post comparing this rumor to the FS700 - haha
> 
> In other news, Nissan Europe may develop a new Formula One car, priced at $800K... and the verdict from the CR crowd is that it is way overpriced compared to the upcoming Scion FR-S, and Nissan should just improve the Altima first. ???



yeah but they don't leave features out of the passenger car to protect their F1 sales ;D


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Apr 11, 2012)

Bob Howland said:


> bp said:
> 
> 
> > I think maybe CR should stick to consumer-to-semi-pro-level rumors, because it seems like people don't get that this would be a whole different level of camera. Post after post comparing this rumor to the FS700 - haha
> ...



and then later down he keeps going on about how digital the C300 looks and how even a few DSLR looked more organic at times and kept praising the Alexa like mad in 90% of his responses in the comments


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## Bob Howland (Apr 11, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Bob Howland said:
> 
> 
> > bp said:
> ...



I'm assuming by "comments", you mean Hurlbut's blog, not the EOSHD comments.


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## Ed_5D (Apr 11, 2012)

Minnesota Nice said:


> I'll sell my kidney and other non vital body parts to get a 4K camera that can film at least at 120fps.


Hahaha!! I'm there with you! I'll even throw one ear!! as far as we are talking about a camera under $15k


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