# 8K recording options for the Canon EOS R5 leak



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 5, 2020)

> Here is a sneak peek of the 8K recording options for the upcoming Canon EOS R5.
> As you can see, you can shoot either 8K DCI or 8K ultra, which will be slightly different resolutions. The resolutions of the two modes will likely be 8192×4320 and 7680×4320.
> 
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## eat-sleep-code (Jul 5, 2020)

"8K 30p and 4K 120p will not have a crop." In the screenshot, 8K-D doesn't show 30fps as an option? Are we sure it shoots 8K RAW 30fps, or only 24/25fps?


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 5, 2020)

I like the layout for selecting recording mode. It looks quick and intuitive. I hope Canon adds a shutter angle option at some point. 8k raw users are going to be buying hard drives In bulk. Looks like you’ll get about 40 min per TB if that’s a blank 512GB card they are using.


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## TomR (Jul 5, 2020)

eat-sleep-code said:


> "8K 30p and 4K 120p will not have a crop." In the screenshot, 8K-D doesn't show 30fps as an option? Are we sure it shoots 8K 30fps, or only 24/25fps?



25p is in PAL


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 5, 2020)

eat-sleep-code said:


> "8K 30p and 4K 120p will not have a crop." In the screenshot, 8K-D doesn't show 30fps as an option? Are we sure it shoots 8K RAW 30fps, or only 24/25fps?


I think the camera is set up for PAL recording so only showing PAL FPS options.


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## eat-sleep-code (Jul 5, 2020)

Also curious if the 21:31 is a storage space limit, or an artificial limit?


Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I think the camera is set up for PAL recording so only showing PAL FPS options.



Ahh, makes sense. Obviously have not had my coffee yet this morning.


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## Franklyok (Jul 5, 2020)

What does this say about bitrate?


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## eat-sleep-code (Jul 5, 2020)

Also curious if the 21:31 limit is storage capacity limit or an artificial limit. I.E. if you had one of the recently announced 2TB CFExpress cards would it increase beyond that 21:31?


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## TomR (Jul 5, 2020)

Franklyok said:


> What does this say about bitrate?



Apparently this was a 512gb card so 3.25 gb, 400 megabytes a second in 8k raw


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## WilliamJ (Jul 5, 2020)

If it’s *only* 8k and 4k 120 that don’t have crop, does that mean we still won’t have an option for uncropped 4k in 24/30p??


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## mariosk1gr (Jul 5, 2020)

Just amazing! I wish R5 has resolutions between 8k-4k.. like 5k, 6k, etc and also WS options to choose. I don't think we will see that... but as a last option you can do it in post at least.


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## eat-sleep-code (Jul 5, 2020)

WilliamJ said:


> If it’s *only* 8k and 4k 120 that don’t have crop, does that mean we still won’t have an option for uncropped 4k in 24/30p??



No, pretty sure Canon was quoted that 8K and 4K are available uncropped in all modes.


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## herein2020 (Jul 5, 2020)

I definitely wouldn't be shooting more than 30 sec clips in 8K and only for situations where the lens did not reach or I needed some serious recomposition options due to the situation. 4K120 on the other hand....as long as the bitrate was high enough to properly support it, would come in handy more often. Even 4K120 LongGOP 4:2:0 would still need some serious storage capacity.


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## preppyak (Jul 5, 2020)

WilliamJ said:


> If it’s *only* 8k and 4k 120 that don’t have crop, does that mean we still won’t have an option for uncropped 4k in 24/30p??


Seems like this is targeting explaining the two modes that basically no other camera in its price point has; which in the past has meant Canon would cripple them in some way to render them little more than marketing specs.

Im hopeful this means that era is over; which is wild since so much of the EOS RP was insane crippling


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## armd (Jul 5, 2020)

So, we can safely assume that the body is at least 36 MP. No word on AF yet. Can wait to determine if this is a Sony killer.


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## Grimbald (Jul 5, 2020)

armd said:


> So, we can safely assume that the body is at least 36 MP.



It's 47 MP


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## jedy (Jul 5, 2020)

armd said:


> So, we can safely assume that the body is at least 36 MP. No word on AF yet. Can wait to determine if this is a Sony killer.


Can’t you just enjoy this camera when it arrives without the juvenile ‘Sony killer’ rhetoric? Competition benefits us all at the end of the day.


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## TomR (Jul 5, 2020)

Grimbald said:


> It's 47 MP



how did you arrive at this number?


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## DBounce (Jul 5, 2020)

eat-sleep-code said:


> Also curious if the 21:31 limit is storage capacity limit or an artificial limit. I.E. if you had one of the recently announced 2TB CFAST cards would it increase beyond that 21:31?


It’s a storage space limit.


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## usern4cr (Jul 5, 2020)

Grimbald said:


> It's 47 MP


Just curious: why do you say it's 47 MP?
If you just do: 8192 * (2/3)*8192 you get 44.74 MP.
Is the extra around the edges for IBIS travel?


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## DBounce (Jul 5, 2020)

armd said:


> So, we can safely assume that the body is at least 36 MP. No word on AF yet. Can wait to determine if this is a Sony killer.


The sensor crops the top and bottom of the image to render full width 4K. So the sensor resolution would have to be somewhere in the ~42MP range.


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## DBounce (Jul 5, 2020)

Can’t wait... now the main open questions are:
1. What will rolling shutter be like?... global shutter please Canon:-D
2. How much dynamic range can we expect?... Please have DGO technology... pretty please.
If they squeezed in these two features the competition... wait... there would be no competition.


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## Grimbald (Jul 5, 2020)

TomR said:


> how did you arrive at this number?



Whops, I meant to type 44.7.

The wide is (at least) 8192 Pixels, therefore it has to be 5462 Pixels in height (so that the sensor keeps it's 3:2 ratio for stills)


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## Kit. (Jul 5, 2020)

armd said:


> So, we can safely assume that the body is at least 36 MP. No word on AF yet. Can wait to determine if this is a Sony killer.


Why would anyone want to kill a Sony?


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## TomR (Jul 5, 2020)

Grimbald said:


> Whops, I meant to type 44.7.
> 
> The wide is (at least) 8192 Pixels, therefore it has to be 5462 Pixels in height (so that the sensor keeps it's 3:2 ratio for stills)



yes that makes sense


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## PureClassA (Jul 5, 2020)

Even with all of us on here talking about this for months now.... I am still going cross eyed in
Total disbelief and exited anticipation seeing this. It’s really getting real now. And it’s Effing insane. Bring on July 9th!!! The new Canon Independence Day!!!!!


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## Franklyok (Jul 5, 2020)

TomR said:


> Apparently this was a 512gb card so 3.25 gb, 400 megabytes a second in 8k raw




C 1dx3 has 2800 mbs in raw @ 5.5 k, and R5 on only 400 mbs @ 8k. Sounds unreal.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jul 5, 2020)

Franklyok said:


> C 1dx3 has 2800 mbs in raw @ 5.5 k, and R5 on only 400 mbs @ 8k. Sounds unreal.



Megabytes not megabits. Multiply it by 8


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 5, 2020)

Franklyok said:


> C 1dx3 has 2800 mbs in raw @ 5.5 k, and R5 on only 400 mbs @ 8k. Sounds unreal.


Yes, that doesn’t sound right does it. One of the assumptions that went into that 400 MBs numbers must be off. I think my 1DX2 is 500MBs at 24p although mjpeg is a data hog.

Edit: got it. Mixing my Bits and bytes again.


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## RunAndGun (Jul 5, 2020)

DBounce said:


> Can’t wait... now the main open questions are:
> 1. What will rolling shutter be like?... global shutter please Canon:-D
> 2. How much dynamic range can we expect?... Please have DGO technology... pretty please.
> If they squeezed in these two features the competition... wait... there would be no competition.



If they announce that it has GS and DGO, you don't need to buy it. You need to take every penny that you were gonna spend on it and buy lottery tickets, because it's your lucky day.


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## herein2020 (Jul 5, 2020)

preppyak said:


> Seems like this is targeting explaining the two modes that basically no other camera in its price point has; which in the past has meant Canon would cripple them in some way to render them little more than marketing specs.
> 
> Im hopeful this means that era is over; which is wild since so much of the EOS RP was insane crippling



I'm hopeful as well that the crippling era is over; with that being said I do think the RP is a bad example...at that price point I think Canon will always pull out the cripple hammer otherwise no one would ever buy any other model. 

What I never understood was crippling their flagships like the 5DIV or how long it took for them to re-focus on the DSLR video market. I'm almost ready to believe that Canon really did have some fatal flaws in their CPUs and had to develop a new generation of processors to safely overcome their limitations without overheating or instability.


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## fox40phil (Jul 5, 2020)

Can we get 6k also?

And how about 1080p? How many FPS? 240-300? This would be insane !
Also: How about a option to have crop? For wildlife and birding...its nice to have a crop


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## Warrenl (Jul 5, 2020)

Why can't I have that menu option in my 1DXIII???? I have to scroll through so may options to find what I want.


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## scyrene (Jul 5, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I'm hopeful as well that the crippling era is over; with that being said I do think the RP is a bad example...at that price point I think Canon will always pull out the cripple hammer otherwise no one would ever buy any other model.



PLEASE stop using that word! It's patently gross but also wildly inaccurate. It implies 'cannot do very much at all'. If a ship is "crippled" during a battle, it's essentially out of the fight. 'Not being able to do everything because it's built to a budget' is nothing like that.


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## Paul Nordin (Jul 5, 2020)

eat-sleep-code said:


> Also curious if the 21:31 limit is storage capacity limit or an artificial limit. I.E. if you had one of the recently announced 2TB CFAST cards would it increase beyond that 21:31?


The R5 will use CFexpress, not CFast cards


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## neo302 (Jul 5, 2020)

Very curious about the rolling shutter. So far, this camera sounds so amazing (as we all of course know), it will be hard to resist...


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## Kit. (Jul 5, 2020)

RunAndGun said:


> If they announce that it has GS and DGO, you don't need to buy it. You need to take every penny that you were gonna spend on it and buy lottery tickets, because it's your lucky day.


As someone who is going to use R5 for stills (and not video) 99.9% of the time, I'd prefer it to have neither.


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## PhotoRN86 (Jul 5, 2020)

Does anyone think it will shoot FULL HD Raw? That would remind me of the good ol 5DMK3 Magic Lantern days


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## Cbenedict (Jul 5, 2020)

Grimbald said:


> It's 47 MP


I'm going to guess 50.3 MP with that width


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## highdesertmesa (Jul 5, 2020)

Me: not caring about the video except to see 8K DCI confirmed, meaning 45mp+ resolution instead of 39mp if 8K had not been DCI.

Also me: pulling out credit card and putting it on the nightstand to be ready on the morning of the 9th.


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## herein2020 (Jul 5, 2020)

scyrene said:


> PLEASE stop using that word! It's patently gross but also wildly inaccurate. It implies 'cannot do very much at all'. If a ship is "crippled" during a battle, it's essentially out of the fight. 'Not being able to do everything because it's built to a budget' is nothing like that.


Relax...its just a term that every Canon user is very familiar with...historical definition does not matter if enough people use a word or term in a certain context to the point that everyone else understands its meaning (i.e. the word drone used to cause English majors to go into meltdown but now it is universally accepted as a term for a UAV/UAS). And yes, even based on your definition I do think it is more appropriate than ever; Canon's DSLR line has been crippled in the video department to the point to where they were no longer in the battle for consumers. The 5DIV wasn't "built to a budget" yet it has a terrible crop and it uses MJPEG for 4K, that to me is crippled; or neglecting to add 24FPS to the EOS 90D, RP, and M6 II...until enough people complained and they added it, or neglecting to add two card slots to the EOS R, or no 10 bit codec even for an external recorder for the C200, the list goes on and on.

These missing features aren't about building a camera to a budget, they are about deliberately removing features to protect some other model in the line; the end result typically being to drive customers to other vendors who did not make those choices. As a reference point Panasonic throws everything but the kitchen sink at their cameras and squeeze everything they can out of every piece of hardware in the camera...I've never seen anyone saying they got a crippled GH5, or S1H; because everyone knows the only limitations are the hardware.

Their recent mirrorless choices on the other hand make perfect sense and aligns the actual hardware with that price segment. The RP, R6, and R5 IMO fit perfectly in the lineup and have actual hardware differences which clearly differentiate the features and capabilities of each camera. From the specs that have been released so far, I haven't seen anything that indicates Canon is deliberately using software/firmware to "cripple" the hardware capabilities of the cameras.

To me, the difference in building to a budget vs crippling a camera comes down to hardware....if Canon deliberately removes software features that the hardware can support then they have crippled the camera. If they remove software features due to hardware limitations that's called building to a budget.


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## TheSalvatore (Jul 5, 2020)

WilliamJ said:


> If it’s *only* 8k and 4k 120 that don’t have crop, does that mean we still won’t have an option for uncropped 4k in 24/30p??



8K and 4K uncropped as mentioned during their last live virtual conference.


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## The3o5FlyGuy (Jul 5, 2020)

We’ve seen every side of this camera except the bottom. Could that be where the secret to keeping it from overheating is?


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## Trinitytrue (Jul 5, 2020)

Take it with salt: 
4K HFR modes (50 - 120p) are achieved using 2 x 2 pixel binning. It's a relatively elegant solution because there's no line-skipping involved. The image will be very soft with lower moire and lower noise compared to other subsampling methods


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## 12Broncos (Jul 5, 2020)

With all this news coming, and there is still so much more to find out, I wouldn't be surprised if the R5 is 4500.00.


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## subtraho (Jul 5, 2020)

Kit. said:


> As someone who is going to use R5 for stills (and not video) 99.9% of the time, I'd prefer it to have neither.



But... both of those things enhance stills, too. DGO is basically just fancy automatic bracketing for enhanced dynamic range. And a global shutter would be amazing unless you want the 20fps e-shutter burst to have crazy rolling shutter effects if anything in the frame moves.


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 5, 2020)

Was hoping you could access 120FPS from that screen. Leads me to believe there will be disabled features when using High Frame Rate mode since you'll probably have to enable it in another menu. At least Auto Focus will work, but Image Stabilization and Audio are candidates for being disabled when shooting 4K120p.

That screen though is so much cleaner though. I like it!


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## [email protected] (Jul 5, 2020)

eat-sleep-code said:


> "8K 30p and 4K 120p will not have a crop." In the screenshot, 8K-D doesn't show 30fps as an option? Are we sure it shoots 8K RAW 30fps, or only 24/25fps?


Excitement overload these two cameras EOS R 5 and R 6 will be FF ML changes - well done to Canon; sleeping giant has awoken.

Although over time Sony and Nikon will catchup; overtake and vice versa.


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## highdesertmesa (Jul 5, 2020)

subtraho said:


> But... both of those things enhance stills, too. DGO is basically just fancy automatic bracketing for enhanced dynamic range. And a global shutter would be amazing unless you want the 20fps e-shutter burst to have crazy rolling shutter effects if anything in the frame moves.



Don’t get the anti-DGO/GS crowd riled up again, or we’ll have this thread clogged up with “why it will never work” posts.


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 5, 2020)

12Broncos said:


> With all this news coming, and there is still so much more to find out, I wouldn't be surprised if the R5 is 4500.00.


That will be tough to do since the price is already reported as under 4k.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 5, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> Was hoping you could access 120FPS from that screen. Leads me to believe there will be disabled features when using High Frame Rate mode since you'll probably have to enable it in another menu. At least Auto Focus will work, but Image Stabilization and Audio are candidates for being disabled when shooting 4K120p.
> 
> That screen though is so much cleaner though. I like it!


8K dci is selected in the photo so it may be that it’s only showing 8k frame rates. It’s possible that when you select some 4K modes 120 FPS is available as an option. Of course it could be a separated function but that would be disappointing.


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 5, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> 8K dci is selected in the photo so it may be that it’s only showing 8k frame rates. It’s possible that when you select some 4K modes 120 FPS is available as an option. Of course it could be a separated function but that would be disappointing.



I thought about that too. But I ruled that out when I saw the 50p grayed out (unselectable). Obviously the camera will not shoot at 8K50/60p since it's capped off at 30, but it's still there... just unselectable. So why wouldn't they just put 120p and gray it out in the resolutions it wouldn't be available? 

If it does somehow pop up when you select the 4K and lower modes, that would make me happy.


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## PhotonShark (Jul 5, 2020)

TheSalvatore said:


> 8K and 4K uncropped as mentioned during their last live virtual conference.



More interesting, is if it offers a 4K cropped mode in addition. This gives great options and possibly (off the top of my head) the ability to use EF-S lenses too?


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## Th0msky (Jul 5, 2020)

Anyone knows if the R6 video recordings will have 4:2:2 10 bit codecs?


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## koenkooi (Jul 5, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> I thought about that too. But I ruled that out when I saw the 50p grayed out (unselectable). Obviously the camera will not shoot at 8K50/60p since it's capped off at 30, but it's still there... just unselectable. So why wouldn't they just put 120p and gray it out in the resolutions it wouldn't be available?
> 
> If it does somehow pop up when you select the 4K and lower modes, that would make me happy.



I wonder what happens if you select a non-RAW option in the bottom row, the 50p might get enabled again.


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## Tangent (Jul 5, 2020)

My prediction for THU 09JUL2020: There will be very loud complaining about very trivial things.


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## snappy604 (Jul 5, 2020)

threads like these make me realize how little I know about video, but glad for them so I can learn


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## snappy604 (Jul 5, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> 8K dci is selected in the photo so it may be that it’s only showing 8k frame rates. It’s possible that when you select some 4K modes 120 FPS is available as an option. Of course it could be a separated function but that would be disappointing.



yeah looking at the image closely I think you're correct, the menus appear to be context sensitive. There also appears to be more modes with some scrolling.


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## JN- (Jul 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Just curious: why do you say it's 47 MP?
> If you just do: 8192 * (2/3)*8192 you get 44.74 MP.
> Is the extra around the edges for IBIS travel?



My guess its ~ 45 mb

Horizontal pixels, 8192 (DCI 8K) .. 8192/1.5 (3:2 aspect ratio) = 5461.333 = vertical pixels for sensor. 5461.333 x 8192 = 44,739,242.666666


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## definedphotography (Jul 5, 2020)

PhotonShark said:


> More interesting, is if it offers a 4K cropped mode in addition. This gives great options and possibly (off the top of my head) the ability to use EF-S lenses too?



How would you mount EF-S lenses? AFAIK the adapter supports EF lenses only.
Sell those EF-S lenses and invest in some RF glass


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 5, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> I wonder what happens if you select a non-RAW option in the bottom row, the 50p might get enabled again.


That still wouldn't work because it can't shoot higher than 30 frames per second in 8k. When you select 4K or lower, then 50p would be made available.


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 5, 2020)

definedphotography said:


> How would you mount EF-S lenses? AFAIK the adapter supports EF lenses only.
> Sell those EF-S lenses and invest in some RF glass


EF-S do work with the adapter. And you can enable a crop mode when using them.


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## Aaron D (Jul 5, 2020)

This really looks like a great camera in so many ways. I'm wondering now if there's any point in waiting for an 80MB version. 45MB is virtually the same as what the 5Ds does, and seems like plenty even for architectural or landscape...


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## koenkooi (Jul 5, 2020)

definedphotography said:


> How would you mount EF-S lenses? AFAIK the adapter supports EF lenses only.
> Sell those EF-S lenses and invest in some RF glass


The adapter supports both EF and EF-S lenses.


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## SteveC (Jul 5, 2020)

definedphotography said:


> How would you mount EF-S lenses? AFAIK the adapter supports EF lenses only.
> Sell those EF-S lenses and invest in some RF glass



From what I understand, you can use EF-S lenses on RF cameras (unlike putting them on full frame EF cameras). The camera will switch to a crop mode automatically.

If so, that would have to be done with the adapter.


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## Kit. (Jul 5, 2020)

subtraho said:


> But... both of those things enhance stills, too. DGO is basically just fancy automatic bracketing for enhanced dynamic range. And a global shutter would be amazing unless you want the 20fps e-shutter burst to have crazy rolling shutter effects if anything in the frame moves.


Unfortunately, that's wishful thinking.

DGO is not bracketing. It's ADC speedup, using 2 amplifiers and 2 ADCs instead of 1 amplifier and 1 ADC to digitize the charge from the same pixel. It would be good for 20 fps at base ISO, provided that the rest of the camera can cope with the resulting data throughput... the problem is that if you are going to shoot at 20 fps, you will usually want to freeze action, so you won't be doing it at base ISO. So, those extra bits of DR in the light signal (to convert into digital) just won't be there.

Global shutter could be nice for slow-sync flash at any shutter speed, but the existing global shutter designs reduce the DR at base ISO by one stop. People that want to use this camera to shoot landscapes won't be happy.

Besides, both of them generate extra heat and increase battery consumption.


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## dwarven (Jul 5, 2020)

Canon’s menu UI, still on point as always.


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## definedphotography (Jul 5, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> EF-S do work with the adapter. And you can enable a crop mode when using them.



Cool, didn't know that. I stand corrected


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## Whowe (Jul 5, 2020)

Kit. said:


> As someone who is going to use R5 for stills (and not video) 99.9% of the time, I'd prefer it to have neither.


This is the next camera in the 5D series for Canon and it is being priced "in line" with what the previous 5D series were announced at, with a little inflation (based on rumor...). It is NOT significantly more expensive because of the video specs. 

So, if the cost is about the same as any 5D series, wouldn't you rather have the features available if for no other reason than to increase resale value when you do sell it?


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## subtraho (Jul 5, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Unfortunately, that's wishful thinking.
> 
> DGO is not bracketing. It's ADC speedup, using 2 amplifiers and 2 ADCs instead of 1 amplifier and 1 ADC to digitize the charge from the same pixel. It would be good for 20 fps at base ISO, provided that the rest of the camera can cope with the resulting data throughput... the problem is that if you are going to shoot at 20 fps, you will usually want to freeze action, so you won't be doing it at base ISO. So, those extra bits of DR in the light signal (to convert into digital) just won't be there.
> 
> ...



In this case, by 'basically' I meant 'simplified for the sake of brevity'. I know how it works, but the final result is not dissimilar to the final result of exposure bracketing and thus entirely applicable to stills, which was the entirety of my point. The same for global shutter - of course there are drawbacks, I was not arguing that. Your comment specifically implied that neither were of any use for stills - without any further explanation - and my reply was simply to say that wasn't entirely accurate.

Every use-case is different, and unfortunately since manufacturers insist on making jack-of-all-trades style cameras (understandably so, given sales vs r&d and manufacturing cost benefits) what may be best for landscape folks isn't necessarily best for all users of the camera. Personally, I'd happily trade a stop of DR at base iso for a global shutter, but I shoot wildlife and fast-moving birds, so my use-case and needs are different. Maybe that means that the R5 isn't the right camera for me, but it has been a long wait since the 7dii for a non-1DX canon sports and wildlife camera.

Completely agree on heat and battery, though. I hadn't considered that.


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## Ozarker (Jul 5, 2020)

Tangent said:


> My prediction for THU 09JUL2020: There will be very loud complaining about very trivial things.


You can count on that.


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## Juangrande (Jul 5, 2020)

12Broncos said:


> With all this news coming, and there is still so much more to find out, I wouldn't be surprised if the R5 is 4500.00.


Already confirmed it will be under $4k


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## Whowe (Jul 5, 2020)

I was still thinking we may get a limited shooting time with 8k to minimize heat, but this puts that worry to rest....


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## drama (Jul 5, 2020)

Juangrande said:


> Already confirmed it will be under $4k



So brave, so confident. Nothing has been confirmed until it's announced, and confirmed.


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## slclick (Jul 5, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Relax...its just a term that every Canon user is very familiar with...historical definition does not matter if enough people use a word or term in a certain context to the point that everyone else understands its meaning (i.e. the word drone used to cause English majors to go into meltdown but now it is universally accepted as a term for a UAV/UAS). And yes, even based on your definition I do think it is more appropriate than ever; Canon's DSLR line has been crippled in the video department to the point to where they were no longer in the battle for consumers. The 5DIV wasn't "built to a budget" yet it has a terrible crop and it uses MJPEG for 4K, that to me is crippled; or neglecting to add 24FPS to the EOS 90D, RP, and M6 II...until enough people complained and they added it, or neglecting to add two card slots to the EOS R, or no 10 bit codec even for an external recorder for the C200, the list goes on and on.
> 
> These missing features aren't about building a camera to a budget, they are about deliberately removing features to protect some other model in the line; the end result typically being to drive customers to other vendors who did not make those choices. As a reference point Panasonic throws everything but the kitchen sink at their cameras and squeeze everything they can out of every piece of hardware in the camera...I've never seen anyone saying they got a crippled GH5, or S1H; because everyone knows the only limitations are the hardware.
> 
> ...


Next to 'cripple' I hate when someone tells me to relax. TLDR


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## slclick (Jul 5, 2020)

Tangent said:


> My prediction for THU 09JUL2020: There will be very loud complaining about very trivial things.


Always, these are very sensitive proto humans.


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 5, 2020)

drama said:


> So brave, so confident. Nothing has been confirmed until it's announced, and confirmed.


Brave? What an odd comment. 

Most of us that follow Canon Rumors are pretty darn confident with the accuracy of this site so yeah call me confident.


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## Jethro (Jul 5, 2020)

Interesting there haven't been more detailed leaks with only 3 days to go (especially for the R6) - those NDAs are really working this time!


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## scyrene (Jul 5, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Relax...its just a term that every Canon user is very familiar with...historical definition does not matter if enough people use a word or term in a certain context to the point that everyone else understands its meaning (i.e. the word drone used to cause English majors to go into meltdown but now it is universally accepted as a term for a UAV/UAS). And yes, even based on your definition I do think it is more appropriate than ever; Canon's DSLR line has been crippled in the video department to the point to where they were no longer in the battle for consumers. The 5DIV wasn't "built to a budget" yet it has a terrible crop and it uses MJPEG for 4K, that to me is crippled; or neglecting to add 24FPS to the EOS 90D, RP, and M6 II...until enough people complained and they added it, or neglecting to add two card slots to the EOS R, or no 10 bit codec even for an external recorder for the C200, the list goes on and on.
> 
> These missing features aren't about building a camera to a budget, they are about deliberately removing features to protect some other model in the line; the end result typically being to drive customers to other vendors who did not make those choices. As a reference point Panasonic throws everything but the kitchen sink at their cameras and squeeze everything they can out of every piece of hardware in the camera...I've never seen anyone saying they got a crippled GH5, or S1H; because everyone knows the only limitations are the hardware.
> 
> ...



We're familiar with it because literal trolls coined it on these forums and it spread from there. Canon doesn't do anything that any other manufacturer of any product does. It's juvenile and inappropriate. Grow up.

Incidentally you're still misusing the word. You can shoot video without 24p or whatever they missed out (and we still don't know why). Not having every option for whatever reason doesn't "cripple" the camera for video, it just makes it less good at it _because you can still shoot video _(and the same is true of any other example you care to choose).


----------



## HenAyr (Jul 5, 2020)

subtraho said:


> In this case, by 'basically' I meant 'simplified for the sake of brevity'. I know how it works, but the final result is not dissimilar to the final result of exposure bracketing and thus entirely applicable to stills, which was the entirety of my point. The same for global shutter - of course there are drawbacks, I was not arguing that. Your comment specifically implied that neither were of any use for stills - without any further explanation - and my reply was simply to say that wasn't entirely accurate.
> 
> Every use-case is different, and unfortunately since manufacturers insist on making jack-of-all-trades style cameras (understandably so, given sales vs r&d and manufacturing cost benefits) what may be best for landscape folks isn't necessarily best for all users of the camera. Personally, I'd happily trade a stop of DR at base iso for a global shutter, but I shoot wildlife and fast-moving birds, so my use-case and needs are different. Maybe that means that the R5 isn't the right camera for me, but it has been a long wait since the 7dii for a non-1DX canon sports and wildlife camera.
> 
> Completely agree on heat and battery, though. I hadn't considered that.





drama said:


> So brave, so confident. Nothing has been confirmed until it's announced, and confirmed.


So brave ... so confident .... but most importantly so accurate ...
*Canon EOS R5 launch price will be below $4000 USD [CR3]*
Canon Rumors
May 26, 2020 at 9:35 AM


----------



## PN5X5 (Jul 6, 2020)

I'm still waiting to hear about anamorphic options..


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## highdesertmesa (Jul 6, 2020)

scyrene said:


> We're familiar with it because literal trolls coined it on these forums and it spread from there. Canon doesn't do anything that any other manufacturer of any product does. It's juvenile and inappropriate. Grow up.
> 
> Incidentally you're still misusing the word. You can shoot video without 24p or whatever they missed out (and we still don't know why). Not having every option for whatever reason doesn't "cripple" the camera for video, it just makes it less good at it _because you can still shoot video _(and the same is true of any other example you care to choose).



Just to play the Devil’s Advocate here, the Cripple Hammer™ shaming (and falling behind Sony in some respects) may be one reason why Canon has finally reversed course and gone “all in” this time. The technical improvements, sure — those in large part are due to Canon having breakthroughs; but, Canon removing their typical product segmentation barriers/protection is all about changing their past behavior that was rightfully scorned by fan and hater alike.

Without the Cripple Hammer™ shame, there never would have been a full-blown R5, there would have been an R5 that was just good enough.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 6, 2020)

Whowe said:


> This is the next camera in the 5D series for Canon and it is being priced "in line" with what the previous 5D series were announced at, with a little inflation (based on rumor...). It is NOT significantly more expensive because of the video specs.
> 
> So, if the cost is about the same as any 5D series, wouldn't you rather have the features available if for no other reason than to increase resale value when you do sell it?


I don't care about it being expensive. I don't care about its resale value (although I don't see why a robust photo camera should have a lower resale value than a "pioneer" 8k video camera given the same starting price).

I care about it having photo functionality that won't be compromised by video-oriented _hardware hacks_.



subtraho said:


> In this case, by 'basically' I meant 'simplified for the sake of brevity'. I know how it works, but the final result is not dissimilar to the final result of exposure bracketing


It _is_ dissimilar to the end result of exposure bracketing.

With exposure bracketing, you can break the DR limit or the photo cell.

With DGO, you can only _speed up reading_ of the full DR of the photo cell, potentially introducing artifacts in the transition area between signal magnitudes covered by both ADCs. Artifacts much less noticeable in video unless you pixel-peep it frame by frame.


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## Besisika (Jul 6, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> This really looks like a great camera in so many ways. I'm wondering now if there's any point in waiting for an 80MB version. 45MB is virtually the same as what the 5Ds does, and seems like plenty even for architectural or landscape...


Thinking about the same. Was ready to jump ship, but 45MP is good enough. Glad I waited.


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## H. Jones (Jul 6, 2020)

As someone who is more than happy with the 20mp of my 1dx2, I'm more than happy with 45 mp. I was always intimidated by the 5DS, and felt like it was too slow to be worthwhile while taking up too much space, but 20 fps at 45 megapixels is a huge update that gives real value to it for me working in news. I've started buying extra external hard drives and larger size CF Express to prepare for the masses of data, but I look forward to being able to crop way tighter when photographing sports and birds from a distance.


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## David - Sydney (Jul 6, 2020)

Kit. said:


> I don't care about it being expensive. I don't care about its resale value (although I don't see why a robust photo camera should have a lower resale value than a "pioneer" 8k video camera given the same starting price).
> 
> I care about it having photo functionality that won't be compromised by video-oriented _hardware hacks_.


Video @ 8k/30 has had many commentators wary of what video recording limit it would have due to heat buildup. The menu appears to show no arbitrary time limit (environmental temperatures aside). There would be an additional hardware cost in the camera body for managing that heat. That said, it would also appear to have 47mp unlimited continuous shooting @ 20fps (eshutter without buffering) to the CFexpress card so a benefit for stills shooters as well. Without doing the maths, 8k/30 DCI raw should be approximately the same bitrate as 47mp/20fps.


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## Able (Jul 6, 2020)

HenAyr said:


> So brave ... so confident .... but most importantly so accurate ...
> *Canon EOS R5 launch price will be below $4000 USD [CR3]*
> Canon Rumors
> May 26, 2020 at 9:35 AM


$3,999.99999999999.... 

Just kidding


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 6, 2020)

scyrene said:


> We're familiar with it because literal trolls coined it on these forums and it spread from there. Canon doesn't do anything that any other manufacturer of any product does. It's juvenile and inappropriate. Grow up.
> 
> Incidentally you're still misusing the word. You can shoot video without 24p or whatever they missed out (and we still don't know why). Not having every option for whatever reason doesn't "cripple" the camera for video, it just makes it less good at it _because you can still shoot video _(and the same is true of any other example you care to choose).



You are entitled to your opinion and use of the word just like I am; and I will continue to use the term to describe Canon anytime I feel that they have deliberately limited a hardware feature using firmware or software for no other reason than to protect another model. Also, I am no historian so I do not know how long CR has been around but I do highly doubt it was coined by "trolls" on forums. I have been seeing the word crippled associated with Canon since Magic Lantern 11 years ago unlocked features in the 5D Mark II that no one thought was possible.

Also, your defense of Canon's decision to not include 24p or some other feature that the hardware supports but chose not to include is nothing short of laughable. Tell someone with two cameras and a 24p timeline from camera A that "they can still shoot video" while watching their video stutter due to camera B's lack of support for 24p on a 24p timeline in their NLE. And I'm not talking minor niche features, I'm talking industry standard features that every other vendor includes in their equivalent models / price point.

I'm not a Canon "fanboy", I shoot with whatever gets the job done, and I don't hesitate to point out when any vendor that I am familiar with appears to cripple their software to protect their HW. To get offended by the fact that someone else is pointing out that Canon has deliberately crippled a feature makes no sense at all. With that being said, I am a big fan of the direction Canon is going and I foresee a lot more Canon gear in my future; but if everyone just ignored their shortcomings like you seem to be doing while singing their praises for the things they got right we wouldn't have an R5 and R6 on the way, we probably also wouldn't have IBIS, we'd still be using MJPEG for 4K, we probably wouldn't even have 4K, we definitely wouldn't have mirrorless, or anything else that Canon deemed unnecessary to satisfy their customer base since according to you, as long as it takes pictures and shoots video and has a Canon label on it that's all that matters.

The reality is, Canon for many years completely ignored their users and crippled their hardware using firmware and software until real competition came along (Sony) and people started talking with their wallets. As much as I dislike Sony products, I think they are the best thing that ever happened to Canon users. I was one step away from going all in on the S1H, S1, and EVA1 due to Canon's complete inaction in the video department until the R5 and R6 came along (thanks to Sony).


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 6, 2020)

Kit. said:


> I don't care about it being expensive. I don't care about its resale value (although I don't see why a robust photo camera should have a lower resale value than a "pioneer" 8k video camera given the same starting price).
> 
> I care about it having photo functionality that won't be compromised by video-oriented _hardware hacks_.


I'm sitting here confused and wondering how stills are compromised by video functions?


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 6, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I'm sitting here confused and wondering how stills are compromised by video functions?



It's a losing battle and waste of time to bother responding to people who still think video is the worst thing that ever happened to photography cameras. Just quit while your sanity is still ahead.


----------



## canonnews (Jul 6, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Just to play the Devil’s Advocate here, the Cripple Hammer™ shaming (and falling behind Sony in some respects) may be one reason why Canon has finally reversed course and gone “all in” this time. The technical improvements, sure — those in large part are due to Canon having breakthroughs; but, Canon removing their typical product segmentation barriers/protection is all about changing their past behavior that was rightfully scorned by fan and hater alike.
> 
> Without the Cripple Hammer™ shame, there never would have been a full-blown R5, there would have been an R5 that was just good enough.


or it could be that canon had to wait for appropriate research and development which can span years and years, instead of making cameras in the span of a few months in their basements as some tend to think 

Granted I do feel they have put a more concerted effort into this release, but a lot of it could have been last minute - for instance, they may have decided to do 8k, but had it nerfed at the start, only to add in more later because much of the enhancements may have simply been firmware.

The absolute collapse of USA DSLR sales, and the rise of the startling sales of the M50 even in the USA I think changed opinions fast on mirrorless. I have seen some numbers on this, and I wish I could write up something on it - but it surprised the heck out of me.


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## canonnews (Jul 6, 2020)

Kit. said:


> I don't care about it being expensive. I don't care about its resale value (although I don't see why a robust photo camera should have a lower resale value than a "pioneer" 8k video camera given the same starting price).
> 
> I care about it having photo functionality that won't be compromised by video-oriented _hardware hacks_.
> 
> ...



I have misgivings how DGO that was designed for video could work its way back into stills. as you said, there's alot of stuff they can hide in video because it's well, only 4k and at times oversampled 4k and you can't perceptibly see minor flaws as well.

but i don't see how it "breaks" any photo related features, you either turn DGO on or off - if it does have it.

IMO people are getting carried away thinking it's DGO - and already writing cheques based upon it.


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## Skux (Jul 6, 2020)

It's pretty silly that Canon still makes a distinction between PAL and NTSC video modes. All of the frame rates should be available on the one menu without having to switch between them.


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## sagtor (Jul 6, 2020)

Does the R5 not have 4k RAW? It wasn't in canon's specs in the presentation, only 8k raw. Very odd


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## canonnews (Jul 6, 2020)

sagtor said:


> Does the R5 not have 4k RAW? It wasn't in canon's specs in the presentation, only 8k raw. Very odd


not necessarily .. how would do it? if it was 4K oversampled, it wouldn't be raw. it would either have to be lineskipped or perhaps 1:1 pixel readout which would be like a 2.3x crop factor.


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## PhotonShark (Jul 6, 2020)

definedphotography said:


> How would you mount EF-S lenses? AFAIK the adapter supports EF lenses only.
> Sell those EF-S lenses and invest in some RF glass



True, you would have to use an adapter. But you could also go with the EF-S crop on full frame lens. This would then give you native 4k, with the added "reach" and centre sharpness.


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## Max TT (Jul 6, 2020)

Hahaha in my mind I am hearing two famous quotes as a pertains to my current PC processing capabilities.

Jaws: Captain, we are going to need a bigger PC!

Start Trek: We're going to need more power Mr. Scotty
Aye, I'm givin' her all she's got, Cap_tain!_


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## highdesertmesa (Jul 6, 2020)

canonnews said:


> or it could be that canon had to wait for appropriate research and development which can span years and years, instead of making cameras in the span of a few months in their basements as some tend to think
> 
> Granted I do feel they have put a more concerted effort into this release, but a lot of it could have been last minute - for instance, they may have decided to do 8k, but had it nerfed at the start, only to add in more later because much of the enhancements may have simply been firmware.
> 
> The absolute collapse of USA DSLR sales, and the rise of the startling sales of the M50 even in the USA I think changed opinions fast on mirrorless. I have seen some numbers on this, and I wish I could write up something on it - but it surprised the heck out of me.



I thought I remember reading it was a management shakeup at Canon that helped lead to this new R5 mindset – a shakeup related to the bad image Canon had of intentionally feature-limiting their products and losing best-in-class performance status (perceived or otherwise). I think it was the "nanny-limiting" of features that earned Canon the Cripple Hammer™ ridicule more than the tech limitations like crop-4K.


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## definedphotography (Jul 6, 2020)

Skux said:


> It's pretty silly that Canon still makes a distinction between PAL and NTSC video modes. All of the frame rates should be available on the one menu without having to switch between them.



i'm just thankful they don't do separate PAL & NTSC versions like they used to


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## Whowe (Jul 6, 2020)

Kit. said:


> I care about it having photo functionality that won't be compromised by video-oriented _hardware hacks_.


I guess the question I had was more along the lines of "if the other features are video related or "video-oriented hardware hacks," will they affect you as a photo shooter?

As far as affecting resale value, of course additional video features will help resale value because the used camera will appeal to a larger user (of course, that is WHY Canon includes video features is the cameras in the first place...)


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## Quackator (Jul 6, 2020)

And what is the max frame rate at 1080p?


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## Bennymiata (Jul 6, 2020)

It's hard to sell cameras without video.
Just ask Nikon.......


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## Joules (Jul 6, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Unfortunately, that's wishful thinking.
> 
> DGO is not bracketing. It's ADC speedup, using 2 amplifiers and 2 ADCs instead of 1 amplifier and 1 ADC to digitize the charge from the same pixel. It would be good for 20 fps at base ISO, provided that the rest of the camera can cope with the resulting data throughput... the problem is that if you are going to shoot at 20 fps, you will usually want to freeze action, so you won't be doing it at base ISO. So, those extra bits of DR in the light signal (to convert into digital) just won't be there.
> 
> ...


Can you provide a source for your info please? It seems to be pretty different from anything I have seen yet and I am curious if you are basing it on speculation or if there's a place where one could read up in what you are saying.

Edit: to clarify, I am specifically talking about the statements about DGO. The parts where it involves two ADCs and amplifiers as well as that it generates heat (to a degree that that's worth mentioning. Obviously electronics do it to some level).


----------



## drama (Jul 6, 2020)

HenAyr said:


> So brave ... so confident .... but most importantly so accurate ...
> *Canon EOS R5 launch price will be below $4000 USD [CR3]*
> Canon Rumors
> May 26, 2020 at 9:35 AM



No need to shout. See you thursday.


----------



## canonnews (Jul 6, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> I thought I remember reading it was a management shakeup at Canon that helped lead to this new R5 mindset – a shakeup related to the bad image Canon had of intentionally feature-limiting their products and losing best-in-class performance status (perceived or otherwise). I think it was the "nanny-limiting" of features that earned Canon the Cripple Hammer™ ridicule more than the tech limitations like crop-4K.


No, it's just internet stupidity.

if you have 5 product lines versus 13 product lines, how you define and spec products will be entirely different.


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## HarryFilm (Jul 6, 2020)

Trinitytrue said:


> Take it with salt:
> 4K HFR modes (50 - 120p) are achieved using 2 x 2 pixel binning. It's a relatively elegant solution because there's no line-skipping involved. The image will be very soft with lower moire and lower noise compared to other subsampling methods



---

To get your sharpness back use an UNSHARP MASK filter in Photoshop, Adobe Premiere or Blackmagic Resolve or whatever program you use with a 1.5 to 3 pixel radius in order to highlight edges-only within any image. You will see quite the difference in resulting image quality!

.


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## degos (Jul 6, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Without the Cripple Hammer™ shame, there never would have been a full-blown R5, there would have been an R5 that was just good enough.



If you're in the market for a video camera that must be great.

Meanwhile the perhaps-affordable R6 isn't any upgrade over an eight-year old 1DX for actual photography. Canon hasn't forgotten how to segment the market...


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## edoorn (Jul 6, 2020)

I bet an R6 can track a subject troughout the frame much and much better than that 1DX. Getting a subject sharp in focus in movement does matter for actual photography..


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## Joules (Jul 6, 2020)

degos said:


> If you're in the market for a video camera that must be great.
> 
> Meanwhile the perhaps-affordable R6 isn't any upgrade over an eight-year old 1DX for actual photography. Canon hasn't forgotten how to segment the market...


Oh, did the 1DX have 20 FPS electronic shutter, IBIS, eye AF (apparently even for animals), great base ISO DR, a swivel screen and an option to be used without the massive vertical grip? I wasn't aware of that. Quite impressive that Canon sold such solid mirrorless tech in an ancient DSLR and nobody noticed!


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## HarryFilm (Jul 6, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> This really looks like a great camera in so many ways. I'm wondering now if there's any point in waiting for an 80MB version. 45MB is virtually the same as what the 5Ds does, and seems like plenty even for architectural or landscape...



---

Actually, what I do suggest is that SPORTS and ACTION photographers BUY THIS CAMERA to use the 30 fps DCI 8k video recording option to shoot 8192 by 4320 (35.3 megapixels) which is equivalent to shooting 30 fps burst rate stills!

Just add some contrast enhancement, some extra colour saturation and a final UNSHARP MASK filter on all your chosen/exported video frames and you have Newspaper-and-Magazine suitable image quality for your action shots!

I do suggest that you get the FAST f/1.2 50mm and 85mm RF glass that Canon is selling OR for longer reach, put on the Sigma 150-to-600mm Sports Zoom lens using the Canon EF-to-RF Adapter! You WILL BE A VERY HAPPY CAMPER!

Once Canon makes an f/4-to-f/5.6 L-series 135mm-to-650mm RF-mount super-zoom, then all bets are off and Sony and Panasonic are DEAD in the water!

HEY CANON !!!!! Remember all the Sports/Action/Wildlife pros !!! Time to make that 135mm to 650mm super-zoom lens at f/4 to f/5.6 !!!! Make it $4200 or less and you will sell a HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE number of them!

V


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## Joules (Jul 6, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> Just add some contrast enhancement, some extra colour saturation and a final UNSHARP MASK filter on all your chosen/exported video frames and you have Newspaper-and-Magazine suitable image quality for your action shots!
> 
> I do suggest that you get the FAST f/1.2 50mm and 85mm RF glass that Canon is selling OR for longer reach, put on the Sigma 150-to-600mm Sports Zoom lens using the Canon EF-to-RF Adapter! You WILL BE A VERY HAPPY CAMPER!
> 
> Once Canon makes an f/4-to-f/5.6 L-series 135mm-to-650mm RF-mount super-zoom, then all bets are off and Sony and Panasonic are DEAD in the water!


Curious that you suggest unshark mask. Usually you're so into sophisticated and sometimes pretty off the rails approaches to things, I would have thought you'd recommend some nice deconvolution based sharpening method that only gets rounded off by usm  

With regards to using a third party (or EF lens, for that matter) Tele lens, unless Canon makes smooth viewfinder available when using the adapter, that may not be such a good suggestion for action.


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## HenAyr (Jul 6, 2020)

drama said:


> No need to shout. See you thursday.


Wasn't shouting .... copy and paste from a Canon Rumors article from May 26th .... Headlines for new articles are always presented in bold characters.


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## HarryFilm (Jul 6, 2020)

Joules said:


> Can you provide a source for your info please? It seems to be pretty different from anything I have seen yet and I am curious if you are basing it on speculation or if there's a place where one could read up in what you are saying.
> 
> Edit: to clarify, I am specifically talking about the statements about DGO. The parts where it involves two ADCs and amplifiers as well as that it generates heat (to a degree that that's worth mentioning. Obviously electronics do it to some level).




I MIGHT be able to answer this as I am ASSUMING that interleaved processing of the incoming raw signals will be done so that pixels processed by each ADC are segmented by horizontal line or via an interleaved 2x2 or 4x4 or 8x8 block of photosites. THAT would definitely speed up processing with little more than a $60 increase in price for the extra ADC.

In terms of global shutter, THAT will be a tad more difficult to do since the ENTIRE sensor has to have individual connections from each photosite to MULTIPLE local processing circuits rather than the typical line-by-line processing done on current CMOS sensors. Canon DOES have a current Global Shutter sensor on C700 Cinema Camera which is FANTASTIC but it's also a $40,000 camera when kitted out!

What I WOULD SUGGEST HOWEVER to reduce costs, it to put in a fast-switching (i.e. 100 microseconds to one millisecond) electrochromic glass plate in front of the entire image sensor so that an ANALOG-style global shutter is realized. A specific amplitude and/or voltage applied to the electrochromic plate will cause it to turn FULLY or PARTIALLY OPAQUE either to SOLID WHITE or SOLID BLACK creating a fancy combined global shutter AND a user-selectable variable setting neutral density filter!

If Canon goes for the more expensive electrochromic formulations, the switching speed can be brought down to 100 microseconds or 1/10,000ths of a second as a global shutter speed which is MORE THAN ENOUGH for most Sports/Action/Wildlife photography AND having that COMBINED variable-step neutral density filter is an ADDED BONUS !!!

V


----------



## pmjm (Jul 6, 2020)

degos said:


> Meanwhile the perhaps-affordable R6 isn't any upgrade over an eight-year old 1DX for actual photography. Canon hasn't forgotten how to segment the market...



I don't think it's fair to say this yet. We have no idea what the DR, low-light or new AF enhancements the new sensor on the R6 will have yet.


----------



## jayphotoworks (Jul 6, 2020)

canonnews said:


> No, it's just internet stupidity.
> 
> if you have 5 product lines versus 13 product lines, how you define and spec products will be entirely different.



It may be internet stupidity, but here is the thing. Nowadays, the internet can get you fired in minutes over social media, lambasted over having an unpopular opinion or simply perceived a particular way good or bad. Canon, through various media outlets, trolls, critics, whomever, etc. have simply perpetuated this perception. Regardless of the reasons, the "cripple hammer" moniker has stuck and although some would like to defend that, with good reasons, the portrayal or perception will need a lot more voices to change or in this case products like the R5 to really shake things up.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Jul 6, 2020)

Is it possible that this sensor is their new 8K sensor that might be used in a flag ship cinema camera like a c700 mk II. In terms of resolution and framerates options it beats all their cameras. It steps on the toes of of the cinema line up for film making and music videos.


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 6, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> I thought I remember reading it was a management shakeup at Canon that helped lead to this new R5 mindset – a shakeup related to the bad image Canon had of intentionally feature-limiting their products and losing best-in-class performance status (perceived or otherwise). I think it was the "nanny-limiting" of features that earned Canon the Cripple Hammer™ ridicule more than the tech limitations like crop-4K.



What I find interesting is that AFAIK only Canon has this distinction; no other mainstream camera vendor that I am aware of is so well known for crippling their cameras. Sony pushes theirs until they overheat or the battery dies, Nikon relies on Sony for their sensors but for the sake of reliability they don't stray too far from the mainstream but they include every feature they can that won't lead to instability; Panasonic is also reliant on Sony sensors and they throw everything imaginable in the video department at those sensors, not sure about Fuji or Olympus but I've never heard of either deliberately removing features to protect other models.

I think the only thing that made Canon see the light was the mass exodus to Sony products. Corporations only understand one thing....the bottom line and when that starts to get affected in real and measurable ways they finally take action.

People can say all they want...Canon's hardware wouldn't support more capabilities....but Magic Lantern proved otherwise 11 years ago and has been proving otherwise ever since.


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## RayValdez360 (Jul 6, 2020)

mariosk1gr said:


> Just amazing! I wish R5 has resolutions between 8k-4k.. like 5k, 6k, etc and also WS options to choose. I don't think we will see that... but as a last option you can do it in post at least.


yes I hope they add 2.5k, 3k, 4.5k, 5k, 5.5k, 6k etc


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## herein2020 (Jul 6, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> Is it possible that this sensor is their new 8K sensor that might be used in a flag ship cinema camera like a c700 mk II. In terms of resolution and framerates options it beats all their cameras. It steps on the toes of of the cinema line up for film making and music videos.



it really doesn't, yes on paper sure it beats anything that does not have the same specs, but anyone who has used an actual cinema camera knows nothing else comes close for real production work. Cinema cameras are so much more than specs on paper, everything from the form factor to the rigging options are like night and day vs a MILC or DSLR. Exposure tools, audio tools, timecode jamming, onboard ND filters, XLR inputs.....you won't get any of that with an R5 and those are the tools you need for higher end production jobs.

I also doubt they would use the same sensor in their cinema cameras, I suppose it is possible for cost savings, but I don't think they have ever used the same sensor from their hybrid or photography lines in their cinema lines but I could be wrong.


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## RayValdez360 (Jul 6, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> it really doesn't, yes on paper sure it beats anything that does not have the same specs, but anyone who has used an actual cinema camera knows nothing else comes close for real production work. Cinema cameras are so much more than specs on paper, everything from the form factor to the rigging options are like night and day vs a MILC or DSLR. Exposure tools, audio tools, timecode jamming, onboard ND filters, XLR inputs.....you won't get any of that with an R5 and those are the tools you need for higher end production jobs.
> 
> I also doubt they would use the same sensor in their cinema cameras, I suppose it is possible for cost savings, but I don't think they have ever used the same sensor from their hybrid or photography lines in their cinema lines but I could be wrong.


U can rig all that up seperate and save thousands. You dont need all that on the camera to make a proper film. Get a couple of these cameras and get a sound guy and you can make a decent film with a low budget. you have plenty of guys using black magic pockets 4k and 6k these days doing narrative work because of the codecs, price, and size. One of the reasons cinema cameras didnt have the same sensor also could be the megapixel difference. 4k is only 8mp. c100 all the way to the c500 had the same MP sensor i think. who is buying an 8mp( actually like 11mp) stills camera? I have a cinema camera. I understand convenience , budget, and necessity. Every job doesnt need the biggest and best camera.


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## peters (Jul 6, 2020)

eat-sleep-code said:


> "8K 30p and 4K 120p will not have a crop." In the screenshot, 8K-D doesn't show 30fps as an option? Are we sure it shoots 8K RAW 30fps, or only 24/25fps?


I think 30fps does not apear in the menu if the camera is set to PAL. Not sure though, but I think this is the case.


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## jam05 (Jul 6, 2020)

*Rocket Lab Electron rocket 'lost' during "Pics Or It Didn't Happen' mission"*

Note to Admin: Payload of Canon satelites lost.


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## SV (Jul 6, 2020)

Me thinks I'll wait for the 16K version, the R5D2...


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## drama (Jul 6, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> yes I hope they add 2.5k, 3k, 4.5k, 5k, 5.5k, 6k etc



Effectively, an anamorphic adapter and lens will give you "true" 6k, and everything else is just matteing down the 8k image to the ratio you want or need.


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## Mahk43 (Jul 6, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I have been seeing the word crippled associated with Canon since Magic Lantern 11 years ago unlocked features in the 5D Mark II that no one thought was possible.



People don't imagine the cost of such engineering, behind a simple feature into a firmware.
Yes, from here it is simple to say the feature is inside the tool and they just locked it, but if you look inside you may understand that it is way more complicated and need a lot of engineering to be developped and to fit every bodies.

For me it is exactly like into TESLAs, you can buy the low cost model without any feature. You have to pay to get these features. Because the developpment cost and the benefit for the customer has a price they can pay for.

Canon develop some features for the high end models, and disable it for the lower ends ones, so what? it is just normal.

Yes, maybe they made mistake, enabling the veiw of the button without enabling to click on it, but who know if it was really functionnable ?

Today a lot of us think the 4000$ target price is ok, what if it was cheap compared to the engineering and developpment costs ?
If so, it would be normal to see some features unlocked to keep them for higher ends models.


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## Besisika (Jul 6, 2020)

canonnews said:


> not necessarily .. how would do it? if it was 4K oversampled, it wouldn't be raw. it would either have to be lineskipped or perhaps 1:1 pixel readout which would be like a 2.3x crop factor.


I am interested how Atomos would react about it. 8K prores raw or ninja VI?


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## filmmakerken (Jul 6, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I like the layout for selecting recording mode. It looks quick and intuitive. I hope Canon adds a shutter angle option at some point. 8k raw users are going to be buying hard drives In bulk. Looks like you’ll get about 40 min per TB if that’s a blank 512GB card they are using.


You're assuming the card size is 512GB. It may be a 128GB or 256GB card. Based on calculations for other 8K Raw codecs (which are approximately 100Gbs) I'd estimate the camera has a 256GB card inside.


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## herein2020 (Jul 6, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> U can rig all that up seperate and save thousands. You dont need all that on the camera to make a proper film. Get a couple of these cameras and get a sound guy and you can make a decent film with a low budget. you have plenty of guys using black magic pockets 4k and 6k these days doing narrative work because of the codecs, price, and size. One of the reasons cinema cameras didnt have the same sensor also could be the megapixel difference. 4k is only 8mp. c100 all the way to the c500 had the same MP sensor i think. who is buying an 8mp( actually like 11mp) stills camera? I have a cinema camera. I understand convenience , budget, and necessity. Every job doesnt need the biggest and best camera.



I agree, you can rig nearly anything with a sensor to meet your needs, but my point is, the projects with the budget for cinema cameras isn't going to get this camera instead and the projects that don't have the budget for cinema cameras wouldn't have gotten them even if the R5/R6 weren't available. There is a reason cinema cameras exist and MILCs and DSLRs aren't going to eat much if any into those sales.


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## herein2020 (Jul 6, 2020)

drama said:


> Effectively, an anamorphic adapter and lens will give you "true" 6k, and everything else is just matteing down the 8k image to the ratio you want or need.



I believe people are wishing for lower resolutions due to file sizes generated by the higher resolutions. Personally I don't think Canon is going to bother with offering additional resolutions, but I do understand the desire to shoot with something over 4K but with output sizes smaller than 8K. It is a little humorous that just 1yr ago everyone was complaining that Canon wasn't doing enough now people are hoping for lower resolution options.

I don't care either way if Canon offers more resolutions, I always deliver in 1080P and 4K give me plenty of re-composition options to work with.


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## mariosk1gr (Jul 6, 2020)

peters said:


> I think 30fps does not apear in the menu if the camera is set to PAL. Not sure though, but I think this is the case.


Same on my c100 mark ii. 25/50p on pal, 24/30/60p on ntsc mode.


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## stevensteven (Jul 6, 2020)

Do we have any idea of when the R5 will start shipping ?


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## herein2020 (Jul 6, 2020)

Mahk43 said:


> People don't imagine the cost of such engineering, behind a simple feature into a firmware.
> Yes, from here it is simple to say the feature is inside the tool and they just locked it, but if you look inside you may understand that it is way more complicated and need a lot of engineering to be developped and to fit every bodies.
> 
> For me it is exactly like into TESLAs, you can buy the low cost model without any feature. You have to pay to get these features. Because the developpment cost and the benefit for the customer has a price they can pay for.
> ...



I totally get the cost of engineering, but the fact remains that only Canon has a reputation for this. Maybe it is because they have/had way more bodies than other manufacturers and decided they needed to deliberately differentiate them through software vs hardware, maybe it was just a systemic corporate culture and mindset that decided this was the way they would do business, clearly whatever the reasons, it was a formula that exasperated users enough to complain but not enough to leave the Canon family...until Sony came along. No amount of complaining will reach corporate ears until those profit margins start telling a company that users are no longer buying what they are selling.

Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Fuji, Olympus....all seemed to put every single feature they could squeeze into every single camera body that they made; who knows maybe that's why Canon is on top today, because clearly Canon did not follow this approach. But regardless of the reasons, nothing changes my opinion that Canon crippled their hardware through firmware that locked out features that the hardware could support and that other vendors were supporting at that price point. You can call it product segmentation, differentiation, development costs, or whatever other politically correct term you want to call it; I'm going to say they crippled it to protect another model that already exists or a model that they would soon release; which is something no other vendor seemed to do.

The good news is that this seems like it may be in the past but until we get the full spec sheets for the R5 and R6 it still remains to be seen. The R5 and R6 have clear hardware differentiators which means they have different capabilities which is clearly shown in their differing spec sheets and price points; this is all that Canon users have been asking for since Magic Lantern came along.

Another example is the fact that the R5 does not have the touch sensitive AF button from the 1DX3; sure a few users complained but everyone kind of understands that hardware feature is probably expensive and would have driven up the costs of the R5 to unacceptable levels. IMO wanting to get the full capabilities out of the HW that you paid for and that other vendors are offering is not an unreasonable expectation and when that expectation is not met then I consider the HW crippled via the SW.


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## mariosk1gr (Jul 6, 2020)

Besisika said:


> I am interested how Atomos would react about it. 8K prores raw or ninja VI?


I don't think we will be lucky to see Apple Prores Raw on R5. If they do it then R5 will have no competition for many years.


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## RobbieHat (Jul 6, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> This really looks like a great camera in so many ways. I'm wondering now if there's any point in waiting for an 80MB version. 45MB is virtually the same as what the 5Ds does, and seems like plenty even for architectural or landscape...



That is the same question I am asking myself. Coming from the 5DSR I was hoping they would upgrade the MP so that when I print large I get even more resolution! I still might add that body once it is released later this year or early next year. As for the 45MP R5, this ticks most of the boxes I have been awaiting for years to upgrade my 5D Mark III and quit using my 5DSR for wildlife, macro, action, etc. 

Given improvements in DR, High ISO, flip out screen, etc. I might even replace the 5DSR for astro with this new body and some new R glass. 

I am hoping for a super wide, super fast prime or zoom in native mount soon. Don't know if it is coming and until it does will adapt my Sigma fast wide lenses for astro. It would be a dream if Canon offered a retrofit for EF to RF telephoto lenses. I would convert my 600 MM F4 II in a heartbeat! If not, I will likely start rotating out of my EF glass (I have a ton of it) into RF lenses as interesting replacements are introduced and the pricing comes down. 

It is going to be an expensive year for sure! Time to save every nickel I can. 

Bob


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## herein2020 (Jul 6, 2020)

mariosk1gr said:


> I don't think we will be lucky to see Apple Prores Raw on R5. If they do it then R5 will have no competition for many years.



If they send raw over HDMI then we could see ProRes via Atomos. The big question is will they make raw over HDMI available. I don't see why they wouldn't but it remains to be seen.


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## koenkooi (Jul 6, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> If they send raw over HDMI then we could see ProRes via Atomos. The big question is will they make raw over HDMI available. I don't see why they wouldn't but it remains to be seen.



IIRC the R5 has hdmi 2.0, not 2.1, so it will be bandwidth limited for what it can send out over HDMI. I might be getting confused with the 1dx3, though.


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## Besisika (Jul 6, 2020)

mariosk1gr said:


> I don't think we will be lucky to see Apple Prores Raw on R5. If they do it then R5 will have no competition for many years.


I share your pessimism. Just wondering. One of the most anticipated camera of 2020 and no plan to join the party at all? Technology limit might be a good explanation, but still ..


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## RayValdez360 (Jul 6, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> U can rig all that up seperate and save thousands. You dont need all that on the camera to make a proper film. Get a couple of these cameras and get a sound guy and you can make a decent film with a lowbudget. you have plenty of guys using black magic pockets 4k and 6k these days doing narrative work because of the codecs and price.





RayValdez360 said:


> U can rig all that up seperate and save thousands. You dont need all that on the camera to make a proper film. Get a couple of these cameras and get a sound guy and you can make a decent film with a low budget. you have plenty of guys using black magic pockets 4k and 6k these days doing narrative work because of the codecs and price. One of the reasons cinema cameras didnt have the same sensor also could be the megapixel difference. 4k is only 8mp. c100 all the way to the c500 had the same MP sensor i think. who is buying an 8mp( actually like 11mp) stills camera?





herein2020 said:


> I agree, you can rig nearly anything with a sensor to meet your needs, but my point is, the projects with the budget for cinema cameras isn't going to get this camera instead and the projects that don't have the budget for cinema cameras wouldn't have gotten them even if the R5/R6 weren't available. There is a reason cinema cameras exist and MILCs and DSLRs aren't going to eat much if any into those sales.


I am saying the need for bigger more expensive cameras is diminishing now that proper codecs are coming to smaller cameras.


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## spomeniks (Jul 6, 2020)

The thing I love about this leaked photo is that it shows they've changed the way you go about selecting your filming options. The equivalent screen on the 1DX Mark III is a MESS of all the options, right there. The one they're showing here is taking cues from BMPCC and other cine cameras, and looks to be much more intuitive to navigate


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## RunAndGun (Jul 6, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Unfortunately, that's wishful thinking.
> 
> DGO is not bracketing. It's ADC speedup, using 2 amplifiers and 2 ADCs instead of 1 amplifier and 1 ADC to digitize the charge from the same pixel. It would be good for 20 fps at base ISO, provided that the rest of the camera can cope with the resulting data throughput... the problem is that if you are going to shoot at 20 fps, you will usually want to freeze action, so you won't be doing it at base ISO. So, those extra bits of DR in the light signal (to convert into digital) just won't be there.
> 
> ...



“Dual Gain” has been available for a decade on other cameras and functions just fine above base ISO.

I‘ll take global shutter every single day of the week if given the choice between that or “one stop of dr”(hey, would you prefer RS and 15 stops or GS and 14 stops? Me: GS/14, when talking about video). But in a stills camera and shooting stills, it’s not a big deal unless you’re shooting with the electronic shutter instead of the physical shutter(or in video mode). But to me, that’s one of the benefits of a mirrorless camera, the silent electronic shutter(and even higher frame rate). Although no sound does take some getting used to.

Technology is progressing. All of the GS “un-advocates” always cite a DR penalty, but RED has found a way to do GS and get the DR that they are happy with. The original plans for the new Komodo sensor were to make it switchable between GS and RS, but they were so pleased with the results that they made it it GS only. Heck, my “ancient“(in tech years) F55 (with global shutter) is rated at 14 stops. And the Komodo, while not in official release or finalized firmware yet, I believe is over 14 stops.


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## buxtehude (Jul 6, 2020)

can you record raw on 4K? 
8K Raw is too much for my needs.


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## TomR (Jul 6, 2020)

stevensteven said:


> Do we have any idea of when the R5 will start shipping ?



not soon enough


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## definedphotography (Jul 6, 2020)

buxtehude said:


> can you record raw on 4K?
> 8K Raw is too much for my needs.



Apparently yes, though no one yet knows which modes that applies to.


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## core57 (Jul 6, 2020)

8k*30fps = 4*4k*30fps = 4k*120fps [confirmed]
the same way:
4k*120fps = 4*2k*120fps = 2k*480fps 
If on paper the sensor is able to do 480fps, it should able to do it in reality.
Though now all I hope for is adequate rolling shutter speed


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## tpatana (Jul 6, 2020)

core57 said:


> 8k*30fps = 4*4k*30fps = 4k*120fps [confirmed]
> the same way:
> 4k*120fps = 4*2k*120fps = 2k*480fps
> If on paper the sensor is able to do 480fps, it should able to do it in reality.
> Though now all I hope for is adequate rolling shutter speed



I would love even 1080p240, let alone 1080p480.


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## R1-7D (Jul 7, 2020)

Trinitytrue said:


> View attachment 191163



Makes me wonder if we’ll get some YouTube “reviews” (using the term lightly) after the 9th.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 7, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Another example is the fact that the R5 does not have the touch sensitive AF button from the 1DX3; sure a few users complained but everyone kind of understands that hardware feature is probably expensive and would have driven up the costs of the R5 to unacceptable levels. IMO wanting to get the full capabilities out of the HW that you paid for and that other vendors are offering is not an unreasonable expectation and when that expectation is not met then I consider the HW crippled via the SW.


Not disputing the merits of your overall argument but I think the touch sensitive joystick is task specific for IDX type sports shooters using OVF DSLR's. I don't know how many mirrorless users are working the joystick the same way as those single AF point sport shooters. Sure it's a sexy gizmo but in reality smart AI auto-focus with Eye AF and subject tracking are what mirror-less shooter want. Even with the touch joystick shooting that way is thumb killer. Apples and oranges IMO.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 7, 2020)

core57 said:


> 8k*30fps = 4*4k*30fps = 4k*120fps [confirmed]
> the same way:
> 4k*120fps = 4*2k*120fps = 2k*480fps
> If on paper the sensor is able to do 480fps, it should able to do it in reality.
> Though now all I hope for is adequate rolling shutter speed


Those are equivalent data rates but that ignores that that the shutter has to keep up to that data. I don't think it works that way even if you bin and only read every 16th pixel in 2K. Maybe if you cropped to a sixteenth of the sensor but that won't be a popular decision.


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## tpatana (Jul 7, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Those are equivalent data rates but that ignores that that the shutter has to keep up to that data. I don't think it works that way even if you bin and only read every 16th pixel in 2K. Maybe if you cropped to a sixteenth of the sensor but that won't be a popular decision.



Shutter? Pretty sure when in video, there's no shutter other than e-shutter used to read the sensor at given intervals.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 7, 2020)

tpatana said:


> Shutter? Pretty sure when in video, there's no shutter other than e-shutter used to read the sensor at given intervals.


Yes the electronic rolling shutter. It takes a finite amount of time to sequentially read the sensor. In the case of the R5 that's probably about 1/30th of a second in 8k and 120th in 4k. hopefully it's a bit faster than that to reduce ERS distortion but I wouldn't count on it. Many are assuming that it's not reading all of the pixels at 120th in 4K but we don't know that yet. 

In order to do what was suggested, 2k at 480 fps, the ERS has to read the shutter 480 times a second. Safe to say it can't do that despite the fact that it would generate the same amount of data as 8K30p. The data rate is not the limiting factor. The rolling shutter is. At least that's my understanding, If that's not right I'm sure somebody will let me know.


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## Daan Stam (Jul 7, 2020)

Hollllly shhhit. That is pretty much game changing. Would this have DPAF. Because that would be literally insane.


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## Traveler (Jul 7, 2020)

The3o5FlyGuy said:


> We’ve seen every side of this camera except the bottom. Could that be where the secret to keeping it from overheating is?


Maybe the metal lens mount can help. It's quite big and it even continues to the lens (or the adapter)


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## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2020)

Just dropped:

"45 million pixel full size sensor mirrorless camera "EOS R5" compatible with 8KDCI cinematic movies that can capture still images of 35.4 million pixels"


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1280611215027232768
- A


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## Kit. (Jul 7, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I'm sitting here confused and wondering how stills are compromised by video functions?


Video itself doesn't. The particular hardware tricks that make a camera better for video, but worse for stills, do.



canonnews said:


> but i don't see how it "breaks" any photo related features, you either turn DGO on or off - if it does have it.
> 
> IMO people are getting carried away thinking it's DGO - and already writing cheques based upon it.


On or off, you still need to budget for it in your camera design. And that includes not only BoM costs, but power consumption (and dissipation) as well.

Besides, as I said, I would not expect DGO in a _fanless 8K_ camera with stills ergonomics for now.



Whowe said:


> As far as affecting resale value, of course additional video features will help resale value because the used camera will appeal to a larger user (of course, that is WHY Canon includes video features is the cameras in the first place...)


Do you realize that this half-announced camera has already lost its projected "video resale value" - with the H.266 codec specification released _yesterday_?

I'm pretty sure that in 2 years from now, H.266 will be the codec of choice for encoded 8K video, and I wouldn't expect it to be backported into R5 with just a firmware update.


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## TomR (Jul 7, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Do you realize that this half-announced camera has already lost its projected "video resale value" - with the H.266 codec specification released _yesterday_?



this is a pretty hilarious declaration

h265 has been around since 2013 and still not the standard.


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## Kit. (Jul 7, 2020)

TomR said:


> this is a pretty hilarious declaration
> 
> h265 has been around since 2013 and still not the standard.


H.265 is that R5 is using, according to Canon.


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## TomR (Jul 7, 2020)

Kit. said:


> H.265 is that R5 is using, according to Canon.



Yes it is


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## Ozarker (Jul 7, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Video itself doesn't. The particular hardware tricks that make a camera better for video, but worse for stills, do.


How so?


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## Kit. (Jul 7, 2020)

Joules said:


> Can you provide a source for your info please? It seems to be pretty different from anything I have seen yet and I am curious if you are basing it on speculation or if there's a place where one could read up in what you are saying.
> 
> Edit: to clarify, I am specifically talking about the statements about DGO. The parts where it involves two ADCs and amplifiers as well as that it generates heat (to a degree that that's worth mentioning. Obviously electronics do it to some level).


You can read up it here. It's still speculation, but at least it doesn't contradict common sense and basic physics, unlike the claims that a camera uses dual-pixel architecture for both dual-gain acquisition and autofocus _at the same time_, and that reading _a half-pixel _for exposure will lead to _increased_ DR.

As to generating heat, there is not much more than amplifying, converting, transferring and processing those (extra) bits per second that generates heat in the camera. If only the EVF.



CanonFanBoy said:


> How so?


Please reread the posts you are replying to. I don't see how repeating the arguments again and again would be helpful if you don't read them.

If you have any particular objections to my arguments there, you are free to post them.


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## Joules (Jul 8, 2020)

Kit. said:


> You can read up it here. It's still speculation, but at least it doesn't contradict common sense and basic physics, unlike the claims that a camera uses dual-pixel architecture for both dual-gain acquisition and autofocus _at the same time_, and that reading _a half-pixel _for exposure will lead to _increased_ DR.


But AF and DGO seemingly don't need to happen at the same time. Did somebody suggest otherwise? I was under the impression that Canon uses separate sensor reads to get DPAF and image data. Since they clearly can switch DGO off (see higher frame rates), DPAF can work as usual and DGO be applied to the image frames.

I don't see how the idea that the two diodes in a pixel are amplified differently to increase DR break physics, as you seem to imply. Your quoted article didn't touch on that. It seems very much like the hidden mode with dual ISO for alternating rows of pixels that Magic Lantern unlocked way back when. That did definitely help for DR, since the read noise was much more brutal in the cameras that profited from that feature (5D III, 60D, 600D etc). Apart from parallax, what issue do you see from getting this effect with the half pixels?


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## Ozarker (Jul 8, 2020)

Kit. said:


> You can read up it here. It's still speculation, but at least it doesn't contradict common sense and basic physics, unlike the claims that a camera uses dual-pixel architecture for both dual-gain acquisition and autofocus _at the same time_, and that reading _a half-pixel _for exposure will lead to _increased_ DR.
> 
> As to generating heat, there is not much more than amplifying, converting, transferring and processing those (extra) bits per second that generates heat in the camera. If only the EVF.
> 
> ...


I have not objected to your posts. I am looking for information you obviously have about how the present hardware with video features makes the cameras less desirable for stills work. If you can't give a simple explanation, then don't worry about it. I'll just keep taking great stills with a camera that is far better than anything I have ever owned despite the video hardware hacks you say it has.

In my opinion, if you cannot provide a camera without the video hardware hacks in pure stills format, then all you probably have is just conjecture and faith in an idea you cannot possibly prove. Unless, of course, you have a simple explanation. Otherwise, my ignorance truly is bliss.


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## Kit. (Jul 8, 2020)

Joules said:


> But AF and DGO seemingly don't need to happen at the same time.


In video, they do.



Joules said:


> I don't see how the idea that the two diodes in a pixel are amplified differently to increase DR break physics, as you seem to imply. Your quoted article didn't touch on that. It seems very much like the hidden mode with dual ISO for alternating rows of pixels that Magic Lantern unlocked way back when. That did definitely help for DR, since the read noise was much more brutal in the cameras that profited from that feature (5D III, 60D, 600D etc). Apart from parallax, what issue do you see from getting this effect with the half pixels?


A half pixel = half as many photons (one stop less of DR due to photon shot noise).


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## Kit. (Jul 8, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I have not objected to your posts. I am looking for information you obviously have about how the present hardware with video features makes the cameras less desirable for stills work.


_Present_ hardware? Where did I say anything like this?

Or do you mean present _video camera_ hardware? Well, those 8-megapixel wide aspect ratio sensors obviously aren't optimized for photography.


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## Ozarker (Jul 8, 2020)

Kit. said:


> _Present_ hardware? Where did I say anything like this?
> 
> Or do you mean present _video camera_ hardware? Well, those 8-megapixel wide aspect ratio sensors obviously aren't optimized for photography.


See the capture below. Were you talking about a product presently available? Or did you mean something in the future?



So I was asking you how the hardware tricks (hacks in a previous post) make a camera worse for stills. That's what I wanted to know. Since you seem to be on the defensive (I have no idea why. I had an honest question.), just drop it. I am not attacking you, my friend. I am just seeking knowledge. I was hoping you'd give me some. That's all. I'm not trying to argue either way. I honestly don't know.


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## Kit. (Jul 8, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> See the capture below. Were you talking about a product presently available? Or did you mean something in the future?


As you could see, I was talking about global shutter and DGO.

Either of them is presently available in some of the video camera products.
As far as I know, neither is available in any mainstream stills camera product (with or without video functionality).
I would like this _status quo_ not to change for R5 as a primarily stills camera.


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## BeenThere (Jul 8, 2020)

Is today the day that full specs leak?


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## TomR (Jul 8, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> Is today the day that full specs leak?



I'm impressed they have kept the lid on this for this long


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