# What Bloomberg thinks of Sony, mirrorfree and CaNikon



## fullstop (Aug 13, 2018)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-super-fast-cameras-are-winning-over-the-pros

1 sentence makes me cringe almost as much as it will make Neuro cringe 


> *The Alpha’s mirrorless design lets image sensors grab light faster *and stay in focus using sophisticated software.


 

Charts for last 5 years show Sony has been doing something right. No matter whether "Canon sells the most mirrorslappers" or not 

https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/6758:JP
https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/7751:JP
https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/7731:JP


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## sebasan (Aug 13, 2018)

Into my ignore list. Bye!


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## jd7 (Aug 14, 2018)

I'd say that article says more about the depths to which the quality of journalism has plunged these days than about anything related to photography. The line about mirrorless letting "images sensors grab light faster" (which has been noted already) and the idea that a photographer with a DSLR can't hope to capture more than a few blurry images in 8 seconds - and would have had to rely pre-focusing rather AF ... while Sony's cameras enable a "tectonic shift" by providing effective AF in that scenario ... Words fail me.


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## fullstop (Aug 14, 2018)

yep, looks like bloomberg article writers (not sure whether i want to use the term "journalist") were also invited to some Sony kando extravaganza. this one seems to have attended a "Sony rodeo". 

but article does nicely reflect public perception of "innovative Canon" and Nikon and their mirrorslappers. well deserved, glad to see they now get pounded for withholding (decent) mirrorfree camera systems for so many years. now they have to deliver - or doom.


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## Mikehit (Aug 14, 2018)

fullstop said:


> yep, looks like bloomberg article writers (not sure whether i want to use the term "journalist") were also invited to some Sony kando extravaganza. this one seems to have attended a "Sony rodeo".
> 
> but article does nicely reflect public perception of "innovative Canon" and Nikon and their mirrorslappers. well deserved, glad to see they now get pounded for withholding (decent) mirrorfree camera systems for so many years. now they have to deliver - or doom.



On the one hand you say Bloomberg were invited to a 'Sony Rodeo' and then say it reflects public opinion, in which case they did not need to go to a 'Sony Rodeo' to write this. 
And by 'public opinion' I presume you mean 'forum dwellers' and not people who actually go out and take photos.


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## ykn123 (Aug 14, 2018)

"such as Nikon's $6,500 D5 and Canon's $5,500 1D Mark II" - yeah i know, it's just a little X that is missing - did not know the 1D MII still sells for 5500 ;-) - and come on, the image with the cowboy on the horse would not be possible to take with a DSLR ?! Really ? What a stupid article ...


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## fullstop (Aug 14, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> On the one hand you say Bloomberg were invited to a 'Sony Rodeo' and then say it reflects public opinion, in which case they did not need to go to a 'Sony Rodeo' to write this.
> And by 'public opinion' I presume you mean 'forum dwellers' and not people who actually go out and take photos.



I *believe* all of the following to be true ...  

1. the writer has - apparently! - little if any clue about photography 
2. the fact he wrote the article and the way he wrote it is probably caused by his attendance at a Sony kando marketing extravaganza; if memory serves, there was one series with "rodeo" as "action scene" 
3. article correctly reflects current public perception re. mirrorfree vs. mirrorslappers and "innovative companies" vs. "laggards"
4. article is also in sync with financial markets' current perception of Sony, Canon, Nikon 

What's hard to understand for you?


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## Mikehit (Aug 14, 2018)

fullstop said:


> I *believe* all of the following to be true ...
> 
> 1. the writer has - apparently! - little if any clue about photography
> 2. the fact he wrote the article and the way he wrote it is probably caused by his attendance at a Sony kando marketing extravaganza; if memory serves, there was one series with "rodeo" as "action scene"
> ...



3. the article correctly reflects the message that Sony would like to put out about how they are leading the world. I would contend 'the market' (your phrase, not mine) as a whole gives barely a thought to all this and will buy whatever looks good and what the sales man in Best Buy and PCWorld show them. 
4. Can you show me any 'financial market' current perceptions of Sony, Canon and Nikon? By which I mean a proper knowledgeable review and not a fluff article written by someone who knows zip about photography as we have with Bloomberg here? I am just wondering what you base your 'belief' on.


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## fullstop (Aug 14, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> 4. Can you show me any 'financial market' current perceptions of Sony, Canon and Nikon? By which I mean a proper knowledgeable review and not a fluff article written by someone who knows zip about photography as we have with Bloomberg here? I am just wondering what you base your 'belief' on.



just look at the 3 stock market links i provided in my earlier post. Sony vs. Canon vs. Nikon. Look at the 5 year picture. It reflects what "market participants" know - and more importantly! what they *believe* about those 3 companies.


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## docsmith (Aug 14, 2018)

fullstop said:


> just look at the 3 stock market links i provided in my earlier post. Sony vs. Canon vs. Nikon. Look at the 5 year picture. It reflects what "market participants" know - and more importantly! what they *believe* about those 3 companies.



In reading your link to Sony's performance, I also saw this article referenced:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-estimates-on-playstation-sales-spotify-gain

Selling off shares of Spotify, continued strong performance of PlayStation, and, cameras were mentioned...the iPhone, in that Sony sells "chips" to Apple (I assume sensors and maybe other "chips.")

If anything, this highlights a concern about Sony. They actually make much of their revenue via non-imaging streams. They are a true conglomerate. So for them to pivot off of "making" cameras and deciding that they will sell "chips", continue with playstation and whatever else strikes their fancy, is pretty easy. They will follow the growth/profit/revenue. They are diversified. Whereas Nikon and Canon are more focused on the imaging market. Granted, Canon has recently been working on diversification, it still was mostly imagining based.

Personally, I hope they stay in. Competition is good for the market.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 14, 2018)

fullstop said:


> 1 sentence makes me cringe almost as much as it will make Neuro cringe



Yes, ignorance of basic facts always makes me cringe. It's a familiar reaction in this context.


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## Mikehit (Aug 14, 2018)

fullstop said:


> just look at the 3 stock market links i provided in my earlier post. Sony vs. Canon vs. Nikon. Look at the 5 year picture. It reflects what "market participants" know - and more importantly! what they *believe* about those 3 companies.



That is not an analysis of the market belief in Sony's imaging credentials: it is a view of the corporation and conflating the two in a thread about cameras is facile.


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## fullstop (Aug 14, 2018)

@Mikehit you asked me


Mikehit said:


> 4. *Can you show me any 'financial market' current perceptions of Sony, Canon and Nikon*? By which I mean a proper knowledgeable review and not a fluff article written by someone who knows zip about photography as we have with Bloomberg here? I am just wondering what you base your 'belief' on.



so I happily point you to the already posted links of the 3 companies' stock market performance - the ultimate reflection of "financial market's current perceptions".

then you complain ...


Mikehit said:


> That is not an analysis of the market belief in *Sony's imaging credentials*: it is a view of the corporation and conflating the two in a thread about cameras is facile.



... and YOU talk about "*moving goalposts*" all the time. 

Current market perception is that "Sony is pushing things forward in imaging" and CaNikon are "laggards, mainly resting on their laurels and sitting on their mirrorslappers of yore". And that both of them are under the gun to finally come up with more convincing, 21st century digital imaging products. And that perception is fact-based and correct.


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## Mikehit (Aug 14, 2018)

fullstop said:


> @Mikehit .
> 
> and YOU talk about "moving goalposts" all the time.


Granted I was not clear about the market perception I wanted to see, but really.... Equally, you referring to market perception as Canon as being laggards and using data that was little to nothing related to imaging was somewhat disingenuous.



fullstop said:


> @Mikehit .
> Current market perception is that "Sony is pushing things forward in imaging" and CaNikon are "laggards, mainly resting on their laurels and sitting on their mirrorslappers of yore". And that both of them are under the gun to finally come up with more convincing, 21st century digital imaging products. And that perception is fact-based and correct.



I just question how you define the 'market perception' and use it to support your argument. That perception is often quoted on forums but forums as not 'the market' - they are a mere subsection of a subsection (that being FF owners). Poll the general camera owning public about Canon lagging behind in mirrorless technology and they will likely not know what the hell you are talking about. 

One thing I do wonder is where Sony's tactics are taking them. Sony has a longer history than CaNikon in the sharp end of mass market electronics (laptops, CDs/players etc), and are used to tackling commodity markets with hyper-competitive pricing. So the pricing of the A73 got me thinking: it is one hell of a camera in technological terms and is probably the first true game-changer they have released since the original A7 - it packs so much technology in a package at a price that effectively beings that it leads me down two lines of thought

(1) they are really, really concerned about the release of CaNikon first FF mirrorless cameras and are trying to stymie the CaNikon at birth. 
(2) The A73 must be in danger of stripping a lot of sales of the A7R3 and so slashing their profit margins. Maybe they are not getting a return on their investment in things like sensor manufacture and tech development etc and need to really corner the market to get a strong market share.

Once you have released a camera like the A73 a that price, where do you go? What do you do in the A74 that is a significant development? Or something like the A9 successor? Of course, as Canon have found, once you have a dominant position how long will it be before people start complaining that Sony is not innovating and not releasing any exciting products? I give it 2 years.


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## fullstop (Aug 14, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Once you have released a camera like the A73 a that price, where do you go? What do you do in the A74 that is a significant development? Or something like the A9 successor?



Price only appears low, because many camera makers are charging incredible oligopolist prices for their (FF) gear. In reality A7III may well also be possible at USD/€ 999 retail - still with profit.

Successors to A7 II/A9? Easy. Even better sensor with global shutter, and X-Sync all the way. (even) better imaging pipeline. (Even) better and smarter tracking-AF with "true AI" capabilities. (Much) better, more intuitive menu system, (further) improved UI / hardware control points, smaller bodies for folks like me, larger bodies for those using predominantly large lenses or have large hands ... and, and, and. 

Even I could come up with about 100 technically feasible and worthwhile product improvement ideas for next release.


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## Mikehit (Aug 14, 2018)

You can only claim oligopoly prices if you know the cost of development and manufacture - still, I guess you are free to believe it if you wish. 

Of those, global shutter is the only significant (which is the word I used) development, and everyone is aiming for the same thing on that one. As for the rest... you mean catching up with DSLRs after 10 years? Stupid Sony - I mean, who would want to buy a camera with inferior ergonomics, substandard AF and poor flash integration?


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## stevelee (Aug 16, 2018)

The companies are so different that comparing stock movement would be pretty irrelevant to the question as to how individual products or lines are seen. Sony's mirrorless camera line relative to the corporation might be like the Apple Watch, or maybe better Apple TV, in the weight given to overall performance of the stock.


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