# Canon prevents me from buying the 7D Mark II



## Harv (Oct 13, 2014)

I have been a Canon user my entire life. I love the product, including DPP which is my RAW converter of choice.

I presently shoot with a 1D Mark IV and a 5D Mark III, which are fully supported by my present version of DPP. The 7D Mark II requires that I update my DPP.

Here is my problem with that.....

The newer version of DPP does not support my operating system. I run Vista 64. Updating my operating system requires that I go to Windows 8 which needs a clean install. Huge job. Also, I'm not sure that a lot of my current software will run on Windows 8. I have CS4 as well as plugins such as NIK, Neat Image and a slew of other free standing applications.

As much as I was not comfortable with the user interface of Lightroom when I tried a demo last year, I thought I would now have to go that route. Guess what? Right. It's now only available under CC and I refuse to rent software on a monthly fee basis which is why I still run CS4.

I'm 72 years old so I guess my 1D4 and 5D3 will have to do me the rest of my life or until my computer [email protected] out and I have no choice.

All Canon had to do was continue to support the operating system and I would have added a 7D2 to my bag.

Okay..... rant over.


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## AcutancePhotography (Oct 13, 2014)

You really can't blame Canon for not supporting an operating system two generations old. 

There is already talk about the follow up to Windows 8.


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## Old Sarge (Oct 13, 2014)

I am having the same problem. I use Vista on my main machine (I have a laptop with Vista and Netbook with XP and a Surface Pro3 with 8.1). I may have to use DPP on my Surface Pro and then transfer the files to my desktop. You and I are the same age (though I just caught up a week ago) and I don't want to go through the problems of a new OS, with which some of the programs I use most often are not compatible. But I may have to break down and do it and just run a virtual machine for those programs. Too much monkey motion for this old geezer.


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## KacperP (Oct 13, 2014)

You use Vista 64?! Is that possible and not go mental? 
If you worry about win 8.1, why not 7 64-bit?


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## LesC (Oct 13, 2014)

Why not go for Windows 7, plenty of life let in that yet & so much nicer than Vista (& XP in my opinion) I updated my aging PC from XP to 7 & all the programs worked no problem & install was a breeze. Does your PC good to have a clean install now and then too ...

I was against renting at first but after price drops now consider the Photoshop CC/Lightroom package pretty good value.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 13, 2014)

Harv said:


> I have been a Canon user my entire life. I love the product, including DPP which is my RAW converter of choice.
> 
> I presently shoot with a 1D Mark IV and a 5D Mark III, which are fully supported by my present version of DPP. The 7D Mark II requires that I update my DPP.
> 
> ...


 
I would suggest upgrading to Windows 7 if you upgrade. Windows 10 will likely be out early next year.

I'd stay with your 1D MK IV, its still well ahead of the 7D MK II. Don't fall for the hype. If Keeping a old OS prevents you from replacing the 1D MK IV, Canon did you a favor.

I'm also your age, I reinstall my OS once a year. To make it easier, I create a disk image on a spare hard drive to have as a backup. Then, I only have to update programs installed or updated since the previous image was made. That helps reduce the big job. I've bought two new Dell XPS computers with Windows 8 in the past year. I just pull out the hard drive with Windows 8, put in a SSD and install Windows 7.

Right now, DPP4 is pretty bad, you are not missing anything.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2014)

Harv, you can preorder the 7DII from B&H and get $30 off the *boxed* LR5. Would that work?


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## Old Sarge (Oct 13, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Harv, you can preorder the 7DII from B&H and get $30 off the *boxed* LR5. Would that work?


LR5 requires Windows 7 with service pack 1 as a minimum. Not a big help.


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## dstppy (Oct 13, 2014)

Vista was garbage.

Get 7Pro x64, you'll never regret it.

Rant over ;D


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## Harv (Oct 13, 2014)

Hmmmmm.... lots of grist for the mill here. Thanks for all the input, folks. I was not aware that Windows 7 was still available.

Neuro, that's one path, but I prefer to keep my business with local vendors.


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## jdramirez (Oct 13, 2014)

No offense, but it sounds like you are setting up impediments... creative cloud, local vendors, antiquated operating systems...

We don't always get exactly what we want, but we find a way to make it work.


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## mrsfotografie (Oct 13, 2014)

dstppy said:


> Vista was garbage.
> 
> Get 7Pro x64, you'll never regret it.
> 
> Rant over ;D



+1000!!!!


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## Harv (Oct 13, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> No offense, but it sounds like you are setting up impediments... creative cloud, local vendors, antiquated operating systems...
> 
> We don't always get exactly what we want, but we find a way to make it work.



No offence, but..... I already have Vista which has been working just fine and I have no desire to incur additional cost if not necessary. I am not the only one who disagrees with renting software via Creative Cloud. Many others feel as I do.

Also, I live in Canada and find cross-border shopping to be a pain in the butt. What's wrong with being loyal to my dealer of many years who has treated me well and provides me with great service?

If I can't find a reasonable solution, so be it. It's not like I must buy the 7D2. My current bodies work just fine. The 7D2 would just have been another toy to play with.


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## Steve (Oct 13, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> No offense, but it sounds like you are setting up impediments... creative cloud, local vendors, antiquated operating systems...
> 
> We don't always get exactly what we want, but we find a way to make it work.



Nah, all that stuff is legitimate complaints. Most people find it difficult to update an operating system and there's always a cascading set of problems that follow with programs not working, lost settings, reinstalling _everything_, its a PITA. There's also nothing wrong with wanting to support local people who spend, hire, and pay taxes in the local community nor is there anything wrong with being annoyed that Adobe has moved to rental scheme. IMO, it really doesn't seem worth it to upgrade to a new camera that might be, at best, a marginal improvement in a couple of specs over his current bodies if the setup he has works for what he does. And I'm saying this as someone who built the computer I'm typing this on, regularly reinstalls the OS, buys stuff online and is interested in the 7DII (depending on how it performs v 1DIV).


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## Halfrack (Oct 13, 2014)

Hey Harv,

You can get a brand new computer with Windows 7 pre-installed, but you'd have to order it via an online shop (NewEgg or Dell come to mind) unless your local computer store has a copy still. Setup a 2-port USB kvm switch box between your old machine and your new one, and you should be good. Do it soon, as Windows 7 will be supported for a while, but hardware companies may not be able to sell it after Windows 10 launches.

Lightroom 5.5 is a boxed product, so your local camera store should have it for you. That and the newest version of Elements and you'll never pay a monthly fee

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=971835&gclid=CJiHhcmyqsECFQqQaQodvGIAqg&is=REG&Q=&A=details

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1004072&gclid=COGhkaKyqsECFQemaQodfGoA7w&Q=&is=REG&A=details


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## privatebydesign (Oct 13, 2014)

Harv said:


> I have been a Canon user my entire life. I love the product, including DPP which is my RAW converter of choice.
> 
> I presently shoot with a 1D Mark IV and a 5D Mark III, which are fully supported by my present version of DPP. The 7D Mark II requires that I update my DPP.
> 
> ...



Quit your ranting and do your homework. LR is available as a perpetual license from any number of sources, even in Canada. Adobe themselves even still sell it!

https://www.adobe.com/products/catalog/software._sl_id-contentfilter_sl_catalog_sl_software_sl_mostpopular.html?promoid=KLXMV


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## jdramirez (Oct 13, 2014)

Steve said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > No offense, but it sounds like you are setting up impediments... creative cloud, local vendors, antiquated operating systems...
> ...



I just replaced s failing hard drive with a ssd... and I totally agree that it can be a huge pain in the ass, but choosing to use a computer that is antiquated is what is causing the problem, not that Canon doesn't support 3.1, 95, xp, or Vista. And there are resolutions to the problem, get a computer solely for photo editing with a new os being the first, then getting a boxed version of Lightroom, and asking if the local store will match the offer from the online store. 

There's nothing wrong with supporting a local store, but it is a reciprocal relationship. I give you my hard earned money and you provide the gear and service I require. If you fail in that regard, my hard earned money will go elsewhere.


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## Old Sarge (Oct 13, 2014)

Halfrack said:


> Hey Harv,
> 
> You can get a brand new computer with Windows 7 pre-installed, but you'd have to order it via an online shop (NewEgg or Dell come to mind) unless your local computer store has a copy still. Setup a 2-port USB kvm switch box between your old machine and your new one, and you should be good. Do it soon, as Windows 7 will be supported for a while, but hardware companies may not be able to sell it after Windows 10 launches.
> 
> ...



You know, this sounds like a plan if I can find the real estate for another case. Except I would probably build the new PC and install Windows 8. Then I could take my time migrating programs and create a virtual machine to handle the one program that is an absolute must as well as others that I am just comfortable using. Another retirement project for me.


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## mjbehnke (Oct 13, 2014)

I would get the Windows 7 64-bit update for Vista. Windows 7 and Vista use the same kernal, they just made a few changes to the OS to make it run better and removed some of the junk that people didn't need or want. Most of the Vista drivers are the same as the windows 7 drivers. So, should be a very easy upgrade.


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## jointdoc (Oct 13, 2014)

You can download Adobe DNG Converter 8.3 and use DNG. It is free. That should work on Vista and solve your problem. Here are the supported systems: Microsoft® Windows® XP with Service Pack 3, Windows Vista® with Service Pack 2, Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows 8.1

I have never used DPP but I assume most programs use DNG format

Sooner or later your hard disk is going to die so I would recommend you back up your system just in case. 

The DNG converter should buy you time until you decide to update your system. Please let me know if DPP can use DNG.


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## Rob-downunder (Oct 13, 2014)

Hi,

25 years in IT here, so thought I'd throw some advice your way.

Vista was junk. Win 7 64 or 8.1 64 are much better and a lot faster. 

Instead of buying a new PC, you can simply buy a decent SSD, install as an additional drive in your computer and setup dual boot, so you can choose which to load. Be sure when doing the OS install you disconnect the other drives. I would then have 3 drives in your PC, Vista boot, 8.1 boot then a high capacity drive for data. You can then slowly migrate stuff to the new OS as you wish. 

Make sure you have 8GB of RAM, your older PC may have come with less. Check SSD specs, some have fast read but slow write, have a look at Intel 530 series. Backup your data before you start. Once you use 8.1 with an SSD you won't miss Vista. Download a 3rd party free start menu for 8.1 so the interface works as you are used to. 

Adobe cloud is a bargain. 10 bucks a month or 120 per year for LR and PS. If I bought packaged software it would cost me years of subscriptions anyway, and then I'd miss out on all those free upgrades along the way or I'd need to pay extra each time. 

Move on, enjoy. There may be a few hassles along the way, but the engineers have been hard at work for the last 10 years improving stuff. Don't miss out.


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## Harv (Oct 13, 2014)

Steve said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > No offense, but it sounds like you are setting up impediments... creative cloud, local vendors, antiquated operating systems...
> ...



Thank you. Appreciate your comments.


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## dcm (Oct 13, 2014)

Trying to stay on the oldest OS can be a losing proposition from my perspective (35 years industry experience in HW and SW R&D). You will continue having to upgrade as MS and application providers like Canon cease to support the oldest versions of Windows. With Windows 10 on the horizon, MS will likely drop support for Windows Vista when it releases - I believe their policy is support for only the last 2 versions (7 & 8). Canon will follow suit and you will need to upgrade again if you want any updates. You may also find performance suffers if your hardware is old, the file sizes increase with larger sensors, and new features are added to DPP. I'd also be concerned about reliability problems looming with old hardware. Upgrading the OS can exacerbate problems.

Best bet is to leap forward with new hardware and software that will give you several years of service as your original investment did, rather than keep delaying and moving forward incrementally. You can start with your new photo software and incrementally move other things from your old configuration as time and resources permit. I assume you already have your images on a separate hard drive (internal or external) so the move should be easy. If not, that's the first step I'd take and make sure I have a complete backup (or two) - transitions like this are a good time to make an archive. Then pick the software you want to use in the future and build a new system around that.


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## Harv (Oct 13, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> Harv said:
> 
> 
> > I have been a Canon user my entire life. I love the product, including DPP which is my RAW converter of choice.
> ...



Thanks. I did my homework but obviously not as well as you. I searched the Adobe site but never found this link. All I came up with when I searched was the rental option. Appreciate your efforts.


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## Don Haines (Oct 13, 2014)

If you are thinking of upgrading, get a new hard drive.

Back up everything to an external drive, then remove the old drive, put in the new drive, and start fresh. Hard drives fail with time and use.... Any opportunity to get a new one should not be overlooked, plus you can always swap the old drive back in if disaster strikes.....


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## emag (Oct 13, 2014)

I partially agree with OP's sentiments. My old Vista 32 laptop runs software my Win8.1 machine won't, some of which is important to me for astrophotography. When the left hinge pinched the video cable (common HP problem), I bought the Win8.1 laptop, then took my time and replaced the video cable in the Vista laptop, installed a SSD and made it a dual boot Ubuntu/Vista. It's now the laptop I take to the field for astro sessions. Ubuntu and Wine run *most* of what I want, but when needed I can boot into Vista for those programs that refuse to run properly with Wine. There may be a remedy but it's beyond my abilities. As a bonus, Ubuntu boots (and shuts down) faster than I can fart, and that's pretty darn quick. Great for when I just want to check email or peruse the latest DR argument on CR. Personally, I consider $10/month for always having the latest version of Photoshop a fair price, and Adobe has stated that Lightroom will always be available as a standalone version.


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## Harv (Oct 13, 2014)

dcm said:


> Trying to stay on the oldest OS can be a losing proposition from my perspective (35 years industry experience in HW and SW R&D). You will continue having to upgrade as MS and application providers like Canon cease to support the oldest versions of Windows. With Windows 10 on the horizon, MS will likely drop support for Windows Vista when it releases - I believe their policy is support for only the last 2 versions (7 & 8). Canon will follow suit and you will need to upgrade again if you want any updates. You may also find performance suffers if your hardware is old, the file sizes increase with larger sensors, and new features are added to DPP. I'd also be concerned about reliability problems looming with old hardware. Upgrading the OS can exacerbate problems.
> 
> Best bet is to leap forward with new hardware and software that will give you several years of service as your original investment did, rather than keep delaying and moving forward incrementally. You can start with your new photo software and incrementally move other things from your old configuration as time and resources permit. I assume you already have your images on a separate hard drive (internal or external) so the move should be easy. If not, that's the first step I'd take and make sure I have a complete backup (or two) - transitions like this are a good time to make an archive. Then pick the software you want to use in the future and build a new system around that.



This is starting to sound like good advice regardless of whether or not I buy another body. Thanks for the input.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 13, 2014)

Rob-downunder said:


> Instead of buying a new PC, you can simply buy a decent SSD, install as an additional drive in your computer and setup dual boot, so you can choose which to load. Be sure when doing the OS install you disconnect the other drives. I would then have 3 drives in your PC, Vista boot, 8.1 boot then a high capacity drive for data. You can then slowly migrate stuff to the new OS as you wish.



+1
;D




> Adobe cloud is a bargain. 10 bucks a month or 120 per year for LR and PS. If I bought packaged software it would cost me years of subscriptions anyway, and then I'd miss out on all those free upgrades along the way or I'd need to pay extra each time.



-1


(that said, as others have mentioned, LR is still available without the nasty rental model (note that I refuse to call it CC or cloud, since it's nothing to do with distributed computing, oops I mean 'cloud' computing. They simply went to a rental model. Nothing more and nothing less. Although it's mostly less ;D.))


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## tolusina (Oct 13, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Rob-downunder said:
> 
> 
> > Instead of buying a new PC, you can simply buy a decent SSD, install as an additional drive in your computer and setup dual boot, so you can choose which to load. Be sure when doing the OS install you disconnect the other drives. I would then have 3 drives in your PC, Vista boot, 8.1 boot then a high capacity drive for data. You can then slowly migrate stuff to the new OS as you wish.
> ...


While I too like the concept of adding an SSD and installing Windows 7, I suggest you first visit the Microsoft Windows 7 Upgrade Advisor Page, and run the software available there, see if the rest of your current hardware is up to snuff.

Based on my personal experience, I consider 4GB memory an _absolute minimum_ requirement for Windows 7, 8GB or 16GB is desirable, I'm using 32GB so as to future proof this machine as best I can considering the unknow-ability of future developments.
As I write this with little open but the browser and a few programs that start themselves at boot, the system is using 3.38GB of memory.
Shortly after installing Windows 7 SP1, I ran the system update giving it free reign to update everything it saw fit. Memory use went up to 10 or 11GB during that update. Had the system had less memory available it would have fallen to a swap file to make up the difference which would have excruciatingly extended an already length process.


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## Perio (Oct 13, 2014)

dstppy said:


> Vista was garbage.
> 
> Get 7Pro x64, you'll never regret it.
> 
> Rant over ;D



How's Vista garbage? People didn't like it because computers were not powerful enough to run it smoothly. Run it on a new recently released computer and it will fly.


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## cnardo (Oct 13, 2014)

Harv....

Consider buying a cheap desktop to install your 7DII s/w and other non-Vista compatible programs on. Not sure where you are, but, here in the states you can get a Windows 8 Machine ...desktop... plus extra RAM and a decent HD for well under $600-700 USD... this is just the unit/mouse/keyboard. Very small footprint... keep your old machine & monitor (buy a switch to go back and forth between new/old computer and the monitor) and migrate over your Programs to the new machine over the course of several/many months... a little at a time. If nothing else, you'll be establishing another backup path and have something in case your old machine really craps out or if your new machine develops a problem.

Go back and forth between machines using USB keys and/or emailing yourself


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## danski0224 (Oct 14, 2014)

You can go from Vista to 7 without a clean install. 

There is a lot of bellyaching about 8/8.1, but there is nothing wrong with it. W8 is pretty slick if you give it a chance. 

Compatibility mode addresses many software issues. 

Putting the OS on a SSD and everything else on a HDD (one or multiples), including the user files, CORRECTLY, can be done in W7. The MS approved method requires a clean install. There are tricks to do it later.There are registry mods. For those that do not like to venture into the bowels of the OS, buying a machine configured this way is the easiest way. 

If the multiple drives and user file locations are not set up properly, an in place upgrade to 8 from 7 is a problem. 

I have many program files on a drive other than C: and it works just fine, no issues with any Windows updates. 

Yes, some old/ancient software or peripherals may not work. Drivers can be an issue if the manufacturer does not support the latest OS.


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## lilmsmaggie (Oct 14, 2014)

I'd go with Neuro's option. However, I think LR5 is available as 64-bit application.

I work in IT (I'm 66 not quite 70 but close) and while I can understand and personally sympathize with not wanting to upgrade an OS, I would NOT go the Win 8 route. My main home PC runs Vista 32-bit, but I have a laptop running 64-bit win 7 and my workstation at work is also running 64-bit win 7. 

You can buy Win 7. Check out newegg:

http://www.newegg.com/Operating-Systems/SubCategory/ID-368

You should be able to find 64-bit Windows 7 on Amazon as well. 

Just make sure you find, download and install all of your drivers (PITA) you will need, after the OS installs. 

Install the service pack and run Windows update. The drivers should be updated before you attempt any application installs. 

If you can swing it, get yourself a 250 GB SSD and install Windows 7 on it and all your applications. You will be surprised how fast Win 7 install on a SSD drive. Save your HDD as a data drive, or find a refurbished one from some place like newegg.

I built a PC and helped my nephew build one for himself about a year ago. Sourced all the parts except for the motherboard, cpu and power supply from newegg.com. I live about 2 hrs drive from the S.F. bay area and found a good price on a package deal (motherboard, CPU and PS) from a local computer store in Santa Clara:

http://www.microcenter.com/default.aspx?

It's actually fun to build a computer . Really. Just allow yourself about 8 hrs. if its your first build. 
I believe newegg had some DIY videos at one time on YouTube as well as their website.

But I like Neuro's option.





neuroanatomist said:


> Harv, you can preorder the 7DII from B&H and get $30 off the *boxed* LR5. Would that work?


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## risc32 (Oct 14, 2014)

Rob-downunder said:


> Instead of buying a new PC, you can simply buy a decent SSD, install as an additional drive in your computer and setup dual boot, so you can choose which to load. Be sure when doing the OS install you disconnect the other drives. I would then have 3 drives in your PC, Vista boot, 8.1 boot then a high capacity drive for data. You can then slowly migrate stuff to the new OS as you wish.



yup, and use something like this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817994164&cm_re=HD_tray-_-17-994-164-_-Product so you can easily swap drives. you'll have to shut down with a c drive swap of course, and this accepts a bare drive so no silly rails to attach.

as an aside, i had win 98,98se, 2000pro, vista 32, and win7 64. I haven't seen a BSOD or any real problems since win2000pro. since then rock solid. My IT friend laughed and laughed at me running vista, but i didn't have one single issue. i don't know what the deal was, but it sure had/has a bad rap. I built the 98,98se,2000 machines, and modded my vista,win7 boxes. they are still low end stuff, but i kick'em up a bit.


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## gbchriste (Oct 14, 2014)

You'd have to lay out some money but have you considered virtualization? A virtualization environment is one that lets you run one operating system within its own application space hosted on another operating system. Check out VMWare Workstation. You can run VMWare Workstation on your desktop with a separate Windows 7 or 8 OS inside a virtual machine. So you would in effect be running two machines simultaneously on the same physical box. And you can share resources between those such as your network and Internet connection, shared drives, USB ports, etc etc. So you could run DPP within your virtual Windows 8 OS, and still have full, simultaneous access to your Vista system.

I'm a Mac user and do all my photo processing on the Mac OS but I'm also a Windows IT analyst and software developer and have to have a couple of different Windows desktop and server environments to work on. I don't keep separate hardware around for those. I run VMWare's virtualization product for Mac - VMWare Fusion - and have a Windows environment running in its own window on my Mac system. Works like a charm.


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## dstppy (Oct 14, 2014)

Perio said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > Vista was garbage.
> ...



Mostly default settings. They "did it" in vista, then "undid it" in 7, then "did it" again in 8, now are skipping 9 and going to 10 and "undoing it".

BTW, each OS uses (obviously) more resources, but the minimum requirements are supposed to be the same from vista -> 10.

Either way, I was more going for a takeoff on the original rant ;D


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## TeT (Oct 14, 2014)

Perio said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > Vista was garbage.
> ...



Its OK, but I have a computer that is powerful enough to run it. Am looking forward to 8 on a touch screen though...


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## Rockets95 (Oct 14, 2014)

Windows 7 is Windows Vista fixed.


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## tolusina (Oct 14, 2014)

lilmsmaggie said:


> ...
> 
> I work in IT ….
> 
> ...


 
For those of us not in IT, it's difficult to keep up with the state of the art, well, for me anyway, I suspect for many others as well.
Having not kept up to speed, the most difficult and time consuming part of a new PC build is researching component selection, I spent months. 
I reverse showroomed my build, that is, I did a lot of research on line, final purchase was made in a retail store.

I chose ASUS for the motherboard based on features and prior experience with the brand, read a lot of reviews.

I found NewEgg very helpful, many individual product pages have links to the corresponding Manufacturer's product page(s).

I ended up purchasing at MicroCenter as there's one not too far away from my current location in MI.
I've since placed some other orders with NewEgg.
When I lived in the Monterey Bay area of California I built a couple of PCs from Fry's, another from Central Computers in Santa Clara as they specialize in ASUS and only a few other quality motherboard brands. Perhaps Central is who lilmsmaggie is thinking of?

I've been quite satisfied dealing with NewEgg, Fry's, Central and MicroCenter with some qualifications to that statement.

NewEgg's web site has a ton of information which is very very helpful but I found no way to get any sort of human assistance in purchasing decisions at least by phone, I didn't even want to try on-line chat on the matter. Contrast with B&H phone ordering where staff understands your questions and has (or gets) answers.
Fry's are Walmart huge, getting knowledgeable help is hit or miss. Best if you know what you want going in.
Central and Micro Center are much smaller and more personal, generally more knowledgeable than at Fry's. Still helps if you have a good idea what you want going in.
I would buy from any of those four again.

The actual physical build time was maybe two hours on my latest, earlier builds took about an hour with simpler gear. 
Minimal tools are needed, a small Phillips, magnetic is good, small needle nose or large tweezers, a cutter of some sort to open packaging and trim ties, good light and maybe a magnifier.
OS install on modern hardware was pretty quick, maybe 20 minutes or so.
Service pack installation should not be needed, just buy Windows & SP1 and the SP is already integrated in.
Drivers come with motherboards and some other components, often there are updated versions on line.
Installation time of other programs varies widely according to program selection.

Instead of a single 250GB SSD I used two, one for the OS and programs, the second for files. I added a 1TB HD for back up, an optical bay mounted slot loader bay for additional and redundant back up.
- - -

Choosing components is the part I found most difficult.

I started with the desire to have a fully color controlled work flow for stills. 
I decided on a wide gamut monitor with an integrated calibration solution from NEC. DisplayPort was the video interface that sounded most attractive so that choice narrowed motherboard and processor choices. 
I have no interest in shooting video so I went with on board graphics instead of a discrete video card. Modern on board graphics are very capable.

I'm fussy about memory, I'll choose only from the motherboard manufacturer's recommendations and max out from there, same for the processor.

I like excess capacity from the power supply and modular connections to keep the inside of the case tidy, both for aesthetics and air flow.

Choose a case for fans and air flow, drive mounts and then appearance to taste.

Noctua makes exquisitely beautiful fans and coolers though the colors are bland to say the least.
Whatever brand of fans and coolers you choose, if the motherboard supports Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) fans, spend for those.
Stock processor coolers are barely adequate, two steps up is plenty, no need to go nuts.

The final bit of color management is a printer/ink/paper profiler.
Calibrate the monitor when it's well warmed up with minimized ambient light, profile the printer/ink/paper combination to be used, soft proof in Lightroom or whatever using the desired profile and minimized ambient light, what you then see on your screen will match the printer output very closely.


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## dswtan (Oct 14, 2014)

Building PCs from scratch? I leave that to the real enthusiasts or people with time on their hands. If you go to Cyberpower or IBuyPower in the US (at least), you pay very little for the build and yet get a reasonably nice, fairly tested, and very flexible configuration of components that are ready to go and much better value than a mainstream brand PC. 

Selective component upgrading (SSD, extra HDs, more memory, better graphics, etc.) is worth it every 12-24 months for many people, as long as the technology is improving -- and it mostly does, in various ways. But OS upgrades are seldom worth the trouble, so I'm sympathetic to sticking with an older OS as long as you don't fall too far behind -- in which case, it's time to move on to newer hardware, which seems to be the case here with Harv actually. 

But I am fortunate to just get a new machine every couple of years and keep the older one as a backup, as some others have suggested here. I watch for the significant (not the minor) CPU generational upgrades. For the last couple of machines, I went with the above pre-built options (both companies).


----------



## Arctic Photo (Oct 14, 2014)

Harv said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Harv said:
> ...



I live in Sweden and will upgrade to the latest version of LR when I get a new computer later this year. I have to say that I also found it very difficult to understand if there are any perpetual licenses out there to buy from looking at Adobe's website so I have to agree with your first statement. Only when I checked with my local store where I buy most of my equipment could they show me that they do sell that. I will never ever rent licenses. Never. It simply doesn't make sense for a private user. For pros, yes.

I'm sorry to read about your troubles with DPP. I hope you'll get it sorted out. I've left the PC-world behind since last year. Only Apple from now on, however my editing computer is still a PC (the last ine to switch), but the next will be an iMac, I will likely take a long time before I consider Windows again.


----------



## Harv (Oct 14, 2014)

Wow! Obviously there are many of you out there with a ton of knowledge about operating systems. I fell way behind the curve over the years.

In reading everything that has been posted on this thread, I have come to the conclusion that the first thing I need to do is address my computer needs soon. Probably should be doing something about it now.

I am not about to take on a computer build myself due to lack of knowledge and will buy a pre-built, likely from Dell or HP. It appears I can purchase a pretty high capacity machine for the price of a small lens. The best processor with lots of memory. I'll just go for their maximum available build. i7 processor, 16mb memory, etc.. The remaining question for me is which operating system. Dell still offers Win7 along with Win8.

I have heard many advise against Win8. What is the problem people have with it? Which should I be going with?

You guys are the experts. I can use your help with this.


----------



## AcutancePhotography (Oct 14, 2014)

Harv said:


> I'll just go for their maximum available build. i7 processor, 16mb memory, etc..



Ya might wanna go for a little more than 16MB Ram. ;D


----------



## Maui5150 (Oct 14, 2014)

Harv, I understand some of your rants, but seriously? VISTA? That was one of the biggest OS POS since Windows ME. Granted, at least you are running the 64-bit version which at least allows you to access more than 4GB of RAM, but if you are 64-Home Basic and not Premium, you are limited to 8GB which pretty much sucks.

Your issue will not only be Canon, but in the future Hard Drives, what ever replaces Blu-Ray, size of HD, faster memory, video cards, etc. While you often can some times just swap out a motherboard and CPU and use your same install, you can run into drive problems at the hardware level as well. Also be aware that Microsoft really no longer supports Vista. You can get some of their "extended" support, but that is scheduled for termination in early 2017

Like others, I have been building my own for the last 20 years now almost. 

I generally use ASUS or ABIT motherboards and AMD processors for the price point. Run at least 16 GB of memory a 500GB SSD for main drive and the what ever for data drives. 

Another point for building your own is some of the newer video cards may have support issue, so while most cards may currently support Vista from the last couple of years, that will become harder to find. This will be especially true with 4K cards in the future.

As for me I have a hodge podge... My oldest system is Win 98. It is pretty much grave yarded, but I have some proprietary software from a company that is long out of business. It might get turned on 3 times a year if that. An old laptop I should probably clean and sell, which is Vista Home 64, and my main PC at home and laptop are Win 7 machines.

Machines at work are Win 8.1, and not much of a difference, a few little nuances of how programs are organized, but with win 8.1 you can pretty much still have your old "desktop" which is what freaked most people out. 

I have CS 4 for suite LightRoom 4.51 and PS CS6 for software I own. I did do the CC Photog program, and while loathe to pay $10 a month for perpetuity, It is cheaper than the upgrades I was doing on PS and LR every year to two years.


----------



## Maui5150 (Oct 14, 2014)

tolusina said:


> I ended up purchasing at MicroCenter



If there is a Microcenter near you, highly recommend them, as well if you put a little time in and figure out what you want for hardware, you can save a ton if you time and wait. 

If you do build (which is really not that tough) DON'T SKIMP on the power supply. Easily one of the most important components... Smooth, clean, constant power is the lifeblood of the system. I never go below 600W and generally go more 800W or more. 

You will pay more building versus buying, but the machine you build, if you build it right will run longer and stronger and much faster because you hand picked the best components.

Order of Importance:

1) MB
2) Memory
3) Power Supply
4) CPU
5) SSD
6) Case
7) Other HDs

Really Memory and Power Supply are probably 1 and 2, but MB is the base and having right number of slots, connections, etc can be important. I have seen a lot of great mother boards that only have a few SATA connections (like 3 or 4) where 6 can be prime. Always nice to be able to add another drive or bay, especially if you want to have more than one Blu-Ray.

6 may seem excessive, but for me.

1) SSD
2) Blu-Ray
3) Main Program HD (3 TB)
4) Archives HD (3 TB) (Music, TV shows, Streamed Content, Back-ups, Install files, etc)
5) Hot-Swap Bay
6) External HD array (6 TB ) - Photos

#5 is one of my faves - allows me to just throw in a 3TB or larger drive and treat like a flash drive for either back up of off site storage of content. 

I probably could combine 3 and 4, but I have a ton of FLAC music, like 300GB of AC/DC concerts and video alone. I am also old school and like to have 20% or more free space on my drives


----------



## Arctic Photo (Oct 14, 2014)

Harv said:


> Wow! Obviously there are many of you out there with a ton of knowledge about operating systems. I fell way behind the curve over the years.
> 
> In reading everything that has been posted on this thread, I have come to the conclusion that the first thing I need to do is address my computer needs soon. Probably should be doing something about it now.
> 
> ...



I think if you would consider Mac, then the iMac makes sense. Depending on how much money you are willing to spend, you can stuff the 27" with all there is or go for the 21" version. I think that would be a good option, you can get that with up to 3.1 GHz and 16GB RAM, that should take you a long way. The 27" with 3,2GHz and 16GB RAM should be in the same price range. Of course a fully configured 27" will be faster and better, but it's all down to money.

I spent more than ten years at Dell and swore myself to the PC world, but no longer. I feel that any computer with Windows just keeps getting slower and slower for every pointless update you have to download to it. It took me only a couple of months to get used to the Apple interface.

Good luck!


----------



## Harv (Oct 14, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> Harv said:
> 
> 
> > I'll just go for their maximum available build. i7 processor, 16mb memory, etc..
> ...



Right... 'GB' just might serve me better. Guess I had a brain [email protected]


----------



## RLPhoto (Oct 14, 2014)

Windows 7 x64. It's just works and It will end up living a very long life, possibly like XP. 

Windows 8 wasn't ready yet and windows 9/10 will polish everything up to make it a proper release.


----------



## sandymandy (Oct 16, 2014)

its a really simple job today to change an operating system. you could probably find somebodyo n this board in ur area to do it for you for some small cash too.


----------



## ksgal (Oct 16, 2014)

Harv said:


> Wow! Obviously there are many of you out there with a ton of knowledge about operating systems. I fell way behind the curve over the years.
> 
> In reading everything that has been posted on this thread, I have come to the conclusion that the first thing I need to do is address my computer needs soon. Probably should be doing something about it now.
> 
> ...



The problem with windows 8 is the learning curve. I borrowed a lap top from a friend and was trying just to get to the listing of the applications on the machine.. it is BEYOND frustraiting to navigate with no previous experience or help. I'm sure it is a decent operating system, but I don't want to learn a new way to find all the stuff I know exists already. those tiles drove me nuts. 

Try out a windows 8 laptop in the store and see how you get along with it. I'm guessing at 72, it is one more thing you don't want to fight to learn. Windows 7 was different than XP, but not so much you couldn't find or google your way around it. Win 8 made me so mad I didn't even want to try. 

Probably a lack of patience on my part, but by golly I don't want to re-learn how to use a computer, the whole point is it is faster than I am and I want it to do things with speed. Not throw a bleeping tiled wall in my way and have me guess my way thru it. (I am definitely waiting for windows 10, if you can't tell already)

Also, you want a min of 8gb ram to go with LR5, and 16 would make it sweet.


----------



## danski0224 (Oct 17, 2014)

Harv said:


> Wow! Obviously there are many of you out there with a ton of knowledge about operating systems. I fell way behind the curve over the years.
> 
> In reading everything that has been posted on this thread, I have come to the conclusion that the first thing I need to do is address my computer needs soon. Probably should be doing something about it now.
> 
> ...




You could always go for a Xeon processor 

Storebought stuff is fine as long as you do not venture too far out of the mainstream. Then, you have to know what you are looking for. 

Options add up quick.

You may get a fast processor, but a small or slow L1 cache.

Slow (RPM or SATA) HDD.

The really inexpensive computers are set up to meet a price point. These machines are more than good enough for surfing the web and email, but may not do so well for photo processing. 

Business class hardware from Dell or HP is in another league, and you could configure it pretty much how you want it, if you want to go that route. 

Future add-ons (not replacement upgrades) for many pre-configured major OEM machines will be difficult to impossible. That is one *major* difference between getting your own motherboard and building a system vs buying one at a consumer price point. The extra stuff on OEM motherboards does not get installed, neither do the connectors. There won't be any extra wires or headroom in the power supply, either.

If you choose to buy a system and want the SSD+HDD setup, make sure you order it that way. You can upgrade the SSD or HDD components yourself later, but configuring the SSD+HDD system on your own from just a single HDD or single SSD is challenging.

A discrete graphics card can make a difference. Check the Adobe site for compatible cards.

Watch the software licensing and feature level. If the license is keyed to a single HDD or motherboard, you cannot upgrade without obtaining a new license. You may want to read up on the different licenses and product levels at the Microsoft website.

W8 operates differently on a touchscreen enabled computer vs a non-touch laptop.

W8 is different, that's about it. I like it on a touch enabled device, I do not have it on a non-touch device.

You may want to head to a store to see if any non-touch W8 devices are available to mess with. I wouldn't consider W8 a dealbreaker, it just takes a bit to familiarize yourself with it. The computer OEM's had to offer a choice to preserve sales.


----------



## Harv (Oct 17, 2014)

We're going to build one.  I have a friend who is a bit of a geek and has been through it. He's offered to help spec out the components and get stuff together. In the weeks ahead, I hope to have it all together.

Thanks for all the input.


----------



## wickidwombat (Oct 17, 2014)

Harv said:


> I have been a Canon user my entire life. I love the product, including DPP which is my RAW converter of choice.
> 
> I presently shoot with a 1D Mark IV and a 5D Mark III, which are fully supported by my present version of DPP. The 7D Mark II requires that I update my DPP.
> 
> ...



sounds like a good time to switch to apple

i was a long time windows user and bought the mac due to superior build
still ran windows via bootcamp for a few years while i adjusted to it now i still have windows 7 via parallels for
the very rare occasion i need it but now i could imagine going back to a windows os

it did take me a couple of years and lots of swear words at apple to get used to mac os though so its not as straight forward as the marketing BS suggests. And every time i hear someone say mac just works i want to stab them. As macs do crash and although far less frequently than windows but its usually a spectacularly annoying crash when it does happen.

I have used windows 8 on my parents computer and it really is so badly made i just want to throw the thing out the window its that frustrating.


----------



## danski0224 (Oct 17, 2014)

Harv said:


> We're going to build one.  I have a friend who is a bit of a geek and has been through it. He's offered to help spec out the components and get stuff together. In the weeks ahead, I hope to have it all together.
> 
> Thanks for all the input.



Cool. It's easy to get caught up in the "upgrade" mode and spend more money...

Lots of info over on Seven Forums- check it out.

A fast processor and SSD can get to the Windows splash screen faster than you can get into BIOS if there are issues with your build (even if you enable the features that are there to slow things down enough to get to BIOS). That said:

(1) Consider a motherboard with a legacy PS/2 port

(2) There may be a specific USB port that gets power first, read the MOBO manual


----------



## Harv (Oct 17, 2014)

danski0224 said:


> Harv said:
> 
> 
> > We're going to build one.  I have a friend who is a bit of a geek and has been through it. He's offered to help spec out the components and get stuff together. In the weeks ahead, I hope to have it all together.
> ...



The i7 processor and an SSD is at the top of the list, along with Windows 7.

What is the purpose of a PS/2 port?


----------



## danski0224 (Oct 17, 2014)

P/S2 is a legacy wired mouse or keyboard connection.


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## AcutancePhotography (Oct 17, 2014)

danski0224 said:


> (1) Consider a motherboard with a legacy PS/2 port



What are the advantages of a PS/2 port these days?


----------



## RLPhoto (Oct 17, 2014)

wickidwombat said:


> Harv said:
> 
> 
> > I have been a Canon user my entire life. I love the product, including DPP which is my RAW converter of choice.
> ...


I did the exact opposite. I dumped apple in 06 because of them being like apple is. Out date the hardware and software over a short period of time forcing users to buy new machines. IE: G5 iMac users at the time when apple moved to intel. 

OSX is free now but before adobe and apple have this thing where the newest abode software required the newest OSX, which meant another reason I'd have to get a new machine just to run new version of PS. For what reason? I saw windows users being supported for XP for eons but 10.4 tiger now lacked support?

I knew of a print shop still running CS2 creative suite because he bought a slew of G5 Imacs but didn't want to upgrade because now he'd have to buy all new machines. He eventually moved to win7 machines and never looked back knowing he'll get software support for years.

Apertures user got left hanging, FCP X had a backlash, Mac pro users no longer can use PCI peripherals internally anymore (pro audio cards) and now have to buy external solutions, and the list goes on and on.

However, OSX is a very beautiful OS. It's fast and efficient but so is win 7. For me, I loved apples design of software and hardware together for a time but now they dropped the software part for professional users. What's the point?


----------



## dstppy (Oct 17, 2014)

RLPhoto said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > Harv said:
> ...



BUT, you must admit the IBM -> Intel switch was a one-time thing. The only people that say you have to upgrade is your software vendors. When Apple got rid of Rosetta, they finally had a fully 64-bit OS. The biggest complaint about windows about people who understand what is going on under the hood (other than the fact that the registry even exists) is that there's so much legacy garbage moving forward.

Honestly, if the shops had even tried to upgrade those G5s when the new hardware came out and sell the old, the transition wouldn't have cost that much; it's not the same thing as 'investing' in PCs. First of all, we're talking 2005; if they're high end ones and still working, they are still worth around $200.

For a business (and even at home) it's not a one-time purchase. If you need high-end machines, you're better off either leasing or building your own and constantly swapping out parts when new technology comes out, that way you can sell 'last years' model for a nominal difference. Macs are like High-End video cards: there's a used market and the value drop is pretty predictable.

The problem is, even in the company that I work, they don't treat hardware as a rotating cost, and use older equipment until it literally dies, then sometimes repair it. If they were to analyze productivity loss over the years, they'd realize that keeping hardware at the front of the curve is much cheaper than using it until it dies.


----------



## LDS (Oct 17, 2014)

Harv said:


> The newer version of DPP does not support my operating system. I run Vista 64. Updating my operating



So it's ok upgrading the camera even if you already have two very good ones - but not upgrading a an old OS (released in 2007), the only one unanimously regarded worse than Windows 8?

From a developer perspective, there are many new features which became available only from 7 onwards (i.e. better support for high DPI displays, color management). while Vista market share is only around 3%, making the effort to support it not so appealing.

If your software runs on Vista 64, it will run on 8 and 7 as well (you can downgrade your OS but with some OEM licenses). LR is still available as a standalone product outside CC. Scroll to the end of the page, and you'll find a link to buy LIghtroom 5 standalone. It won't run on Vista too, anyway.

Today the digital workflow is not the camera only - software plays its role as well. Complaining because we can't use the latest camera on outdated OS looks a bit unfair to me. I understand we all prefer to spend money on the toys we like most and not on something we may regard as "not so imporant", but sometimes we need to accept realilty.


----------



## Harv (Oct 17, 2014)

LDS said:


> Harv said:
> 
> 
> > The newer version of DPP does not support my operating system. I run Vista 64. Updating my operating
> ...



I understand what you are saying. If you look back a few comments, you'll see I have decided to build a new computer. This thread has been very enlightening. The new computer is at the top of my list now.


----------



## LDS (Oct 17, 2014)

gbchriste said:


> You'd have to lay out some money but have you considered virtualization? A virtualization environment is one



Virtualization is the last thing you should consider when image quality is your aim. Virtualization usually menas your expensive video card(s) are not used directly by the best OS driver written by the video card maker, but trough some software layer. It could also impact monitor calibration, etc.

For imaging, forget virtualization and use your main OS - but for running non imaging software which for any reason can't be run on the main OS.


----------



## dstppy (Oct 17, 2014)

LDS said:


> gbchriste said:
> 
> 
> > You'd have to lay out some money but have you considered virtualization? A virtualization environment is one
> ...



+10

If anything, I would say use 2 HDD (Hybrid SSD/HDD are a good compromise price wise). Put OS & programs on Disk 1, Put all settings/storage on disk 2 (workspaces, that sort of thing). Every two years, make up your mind to either upgrade the OS (clean install) or do a clean install of your existing OS.

Even macs get bogged down over time. Last few machines, I did manual settings migration; the machine is much faster/cleaner.


----------



## danski0224 (Oct 17, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> What are the advantages of a PS/2 port these days?



You'll know when you can't get into BIOS with a USB keyboard


----------



## scottkinfw (Oct 17, 2014)

Why not get a Mac?

You will love it compared to Vista.

Sek



Harv said:


> I have been a Canon user my entire life. I love the product, including DPP which is my RAW converter of choice.
> 
> I presently shoot with a 1D Mark IV and a 5D Mark III, which are fully supported by my present version of DPP. The 7D Mark II requires that I update my DPP.
> 
> ...


----------



## RLPhoto (Oct 17, 2014)

dstppy said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > wickidwombat said:
> ...


Wintel machines are simply cheaper, run just as good or better, and don't have the BS apple and their devs have for the abandonware for older OSes. Not saying that wintel machines haven't had abandonware but I you can't say that Microsoft is as bad as apple in ditching there support for previous OSes or devs for ditching older releases of windows. It'd be financial suicide to not make software for Windows 7 being now it's replacing XP in market share. Which is great for me the end user because I know my software will be supported for years.

In short, apple lost me years ago. I see no reason to return.


----------



## GmwDarkroom (Oct 17, 2014)

Perio said:


> How's Vista garbage? People didn't like it because computers were not powerful enough to run it smoothly. Run it on a new recently released computer and it will fly.


1. Slow boot times compared to XP, 7 & 8 on like hardware.
2. Worse security than 7 & 8. I shouldn't even need to mention UAC in Vista, but obviously I will. It should conjure a commercial with Justin Long and John Hodgman in your head (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxOIebkmrqs)
3. Atrocious gaming performance.
4. Similarly criminal battery usage on laptops.
5. The driver landscape is somewhat worse since that was the first OS that Microsoft enforced User Mode and Kernel Mode drivers forcing hardware manufacturers to hastily redo their support. However most devices that have Win 7 or 8 drivers can use those drivers in Vista, so this is more of an older hardware problem.

As to Win 7 vs 8, there are some benefits, especially now that you can boot directly to the desktop and skip the whatever-they're-calling-the-touch-interface-this-week. Notably backups, drive mirroring, and file history (essentially version control) is a snap and works really well.


danski0224 said:


> You'll know when you can't get into BIOS with a USB keyboard


There isn't a single BIOS on a motherboard made in the last 4-5 years that doesn't natively support USB mouse and keyboard natively (i.e. during POST). The only situation where this would not be true is someone having disabled USB in the BIOS or a faulty device -- the latter of which would mean you weren't going to be doing anything anyway. If the former is true, a simple reset will solve the problem.

The PS/2 port really just needs to be thrown on the techno trash heap with PCI, 15-pin VGA, and IDE to keep AGP, ISA, and IEEE 1284 ports company.


----------



## dstppy (Oct 17, 2014)

RLPhoto said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > I did the exact opposite. I dumped apple in 06 because of them being like apple is. Out date the hardware and software over a short period of time forcing users to buy new machines. IE: G5 iMac users at the time when apple moved to intel.
> ...


Wintel machines are simply cheaper, run just as good or better, and don't have the BS apple and their devs have for the abandonware for older OSes. Not saying that wintel machines haven't had abandonware but I you can't say that Microsoft is as bad as apple in ditching there support for previous OSes or devs for ditching older releases of windows. It'd be financial suicide to not make software for Windows 7 being now it's replacing XP in market share. Which is great for me the end user because I know my software will be supported for years.

In short, apple lost me years ago. I see no reason to return.
[/quote]

I have no contention that you are lost, nor that you should return. Just that this is no reason that anyone should avoid Apple.

No, Windows is never cheaper. You buy a machine that's not going to be miserable to use in one year, and you're starting at $1000 -- every time I look at the cost of a new machine, I consider the switch to Linux, then spec myself up a $1600-$1800 and see there's no real savings if I want to do large throughput. Good hardware is the staple of a box.

Abandonware as you call it is what it is -- crappy developers wanting to one-off and not have an actual product. Mavericks, love it or hate it, got rid of a lot of crapware. No one wanted to deal with Sandboxing, but that is one bridge EVERY OS manufacturer has to build, cross and burn. Developers that assume they will always be able to have write access to system areas are just lazy.

After I really moved to a Mac, figured what I could and couldn't live without and got used to it, it actually became much clearer:
When you buy a machine (Windows, Mac, Linux), only use (install) what software is absolutely necessary, your OS won't suffer as much, and your user experience will be much cleaner. I have arguments at work all the time with vendors that insist we must "install" something on the Windows boxes. Since adopting those policies, Win7 has been almost as good as the macs (though nothing as reliable as Linux, which has it's issues with inflexibility).


----------



## Steve (Oct 17, 2014)

dstppy said:


> No, Windows is never cheaper.



Ahahahahahaha

I built my windows machine for $600 including SSD, processor, MB, RAM and video card. I didn't use bleeding edge components but it can do anything I can throw at it, fast. Granted, I had some components from my previous build but that's part of the cost savings of upgrading. Even without that, you can get a ripper bare bones system for under $1000 that will do virtually anything you want it to. A comparable Apple system will cost you 2-3 times as much for the priviledge of a glossy white bezel. Unless you are doing a ton of video or 3D rendering or some such, there is no reason for anyone to absolutely pay for the top end current system and no reason at all to pay a premium for style.


----------



## dstppy (Oct 17, 2014)

Steve said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > No, Windows is never cheaper.
> ...



AFAIK, bezels are all black, if they have them 

I meant you pay it all back, every bit, in time, troubleshooting or virus scans, but you can take it at face value, tell me: what were the Motherboard and processor brand/specs? Video card?

I'm guessing you are, in reality, choking at the bus, meaning you're not getting your full worth out of the SSD speed and a Hybrid drive's speeds would suffice. Ran into that with lower-end macs/PCs. When you group-process a set of 300 RAW in LR (not really a huge load), that's when you start hitting transfer limits and slowdown starts. I'm sure what you've got will do that fine enough, but push it beyond that where there's a lot of read/write going on and you'll see what I'm talking about (or not, if you're just going to go the route of saying that anyone buys one for it's bezel).

The two 'over-charge' in Macs is that:
1) they use laptop components, which are, yes, smaller, but more expensive
2) The monitor because it's built-in, not as high-end as the highest-end IPS monitors, but better than the $175 ones you get

If you take the entire post I had at face value, you'll see that the argument that savings on cheap hardware is paid back somewhere else, usually in user time.


----------



## RLPhoto (Oct 17, 2014)

dstppy said:


> Steve said:
> 
> 
> > dstppy said:
> ...


I built a 3k system a year ago that is as fast as when I built it. It scores just as high or higher than the equivalent mac pro, that I got to use a year before it was released, has 64gb of ram, 10TB of storage and will be future proof for at least 4 years. Now even more important, is that the software I have will still be able to be used in 4 years from now and win 7 provides me that. The only down time it's ever had was when I moved it to another room. 

Macs are indeed more expensive, they do break, and when they do break parts are more expensive. Good luck with your software running 4 years from now, IE: let's see if cs6 will be running on whatever OSX apple releases then but I know for sure it will still be supported on Microsoft win X release by then.


----------



## Mitch.Conner (Oct 17, 2014)

Does this mean around the time the 5D4 comes around well have to have Windows 8 or beyond? 

I'm using Windows 7, so I guess I could get a 7D2 to complement my 5D3 for the extra reach and speed, but I have no desire to upgrade to Windows 8 ever -- I was just going to wait until Windows 10 (they're skipping 9) has been out a while and the kinks ironed out before upgrading.


----------



## dstppy (Oct 17, 2014)

RLPhoto said:


> Macs are indeed more expensive, they do break, and when they do break parts are more expensive. Good luck with your software running 4 years from now, IE: let's see if cs6 will be running on whatever OSX apple releases then but I know for sure it will still be supported on Microsoft win X release by then.



I've got no problems with 2008 iMac and Mavericks . . . did you read any of the other parts of my posts?

1) Hardware matters, get good hardware
2) Don't put crap software on your computer and it won't bog down

I wasn't crapping on Win7, just stating that it's not quite as bad as you're making it out to be. *sigh*


----------



## RLPhoto (Oct 17, 2014)

dstppy said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Macs are indeed more expensive, they do break, and when they do break parts are more expensive. Good luck with your software running 4 years from now, IE: let's see if cs6 will be running on whatever OSX apple releases then but I know for sure it will still be supported on Microsoft win X release by then.
> ...


The issue is running software not built for the new release. For example, I have an old copy of parallels for osx 10.4 on disk I had to run XP. I'm positive that I couldn't run that on the new osx mav without having to buy a new parallels again. I also have a copy of filemaker pro 7 that I'm positive won't work on mavericks either and I'd have to buy new software.

This is a virtual non issue with win 7. I can use legacy software if I need to and not have to buy another copy. I have a copy of Office 2003 that I still run! Because I for the small amount of office work and .xls sheets I do, it works fine. This goes for Adobe's legacy CS suite and many other programs I paid good money for.


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## Steve (Oct 17, 2014)

Mitch.Conner said:


> Does this mean around the time the 5D4 comes around well have to have Windows 8 or beyond?



That's very unlikely.



dstppy said:


> I'm guessing you are, in reality, choking at the bus, meaning you're not getting your full worth out of the SSD speed and a Hybrid drive's speeds would suffice. Ran into that with lower-end macs/PCs. When you group-process a set of 300 RAW in LR (not really a huge load), that's when you start hitting transfer limits and slowdown starts. I'm sure what you've got will do that fine enough, but push it beyond that where there's a lot of read/write going on and you'll see what I'm talking about (or not, if you're just going to go the route of saying that anyone buys one for it's bezel).



There are always chokepoints in any system. My processor, MB and vid card are all a few years old yet I have enough processing power to do anything I want in PS, Bridge, DPP, etc with almost no slowdown. I can play any modern PC game at Ultra settings with minimal load times. I also didn't have to spend an additional $1-2k for processing advantages measured in fractions of a second. Computer people always oversell the advantages of bleeding edge systems when 99.9% of users don't need that kind of processing power. 

PC's are definitely cheaper. I can upgrade my processor and MB on my PC desktop in a few years for a fraction of the cost of buying a brand new Mac, a fraction with a decently large denominator. If my vid card starts lacking, I can yank it and put in a new one, or better yet, a year old discounted model that's 98% as good but half the cost. Need more RAM? Not a problem. I haven't run anti-virus software on my PC in maybe 8 years? Number of viruses - 0. I just make sure not to install every bit of malware that tells me my computer might be infected with ebola or satan or whatever. I can run any program I want and not pay a premium for stylish design.


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## danski0224 (Oct 17, 2014)

GmwDarkroom said:


> There isn't a single BIOS on a motherboard made in the last 4-5 years that doesn't natively support USB mouse and keyboard natively (i.e. during POST). The only situation where this would not be true is someone having disabled USB in the BIOS or a faulty device -- the latter of which would mean you weren't going to be doing anything anyway. If the former is true, a simple reset will solve the problem.
> 
> The PS/2 port really just needs to be thrown on the techno trash heap with PCI, 15-pin VGA, and IDE to keep AGP, ISA, and IEEE 1284 ports company.



Well, I had problems with a USB keyboard working during POST, and nothing was disabled. Keyboard would not power up until after POST, and everything in BIOS was enabled to try and prevent the problem.

Internet searches to solve the problem led to others with similar issues.

It may not be common, but it does happen.

Yes, it could have been a keyboard compatibility issue. I didn't have another one to try out.


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