# Macro decisions



## Razor2012 (May 8, 2012)

You guys totally impressed me with your macro shots, especially the MP-E65 ones. I went and looked at a 65 today and also the 100 2.8L (the 180 3.5L wasn't in). The 100 was nice with the AF and stuff but didn't compare to the 65. But buying the MP-E65 would mean buying a flash also, namely the MT-24EX. I guess if a person is really into macro, going this route would pay off in the long run. What do you guys use for a bellows/rail system?


----------



## NWPhil (May 8, 2012)

I don't have the MP-E65, but when Use my 50mm with reverse ring or any other contraption , I do use a rail system to achieve the focus and/or stacking.
If you read the lens manual, I believe it actually says that focus above 1x is indeed obtained by moving the lens closer of further from the subject...


----------



## Razor2012 (May 8, 2012)

NWPhil said:


> I don't have the MP-E65, but when Use my 50mm with reverse ring or any other contraption , I do use a rail system to achieve the focus and/or stacking.
> If you read the lens manual, I believe it actually says that focus above 1x is indeed obtained by moving the lens closer of further from the subject...



I noticed that when I was looking at it today. Adjusting the lens changes magnification, so you have to move the lens forward or back for focus. I don't think Canon has any kind of bellows or rail system. Maybe years back.


----------



## NWPhil (May 8, 2012)

Razor2012 said:


> NWPhil said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have the MP-E65, but when Use my 50mm with reverse ring or any other contraption , I do use a rail system to achieve the focus and/or stacking.
> ...


No, it does not. Plenty of after market stuff, but spendy too, just like Canon's macro dedicated flashes


----------



## wickidwombat (May 9, 2012)

I use novoflex gear

http://www.novoflex.com/en/products/macro-accessories/focusing-racks/

its not cheap but awesome quality
B&H sell their full range


----------



## Razor2012 (May 9, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> I use novoflex gear
> 
> http://www.novoflex.com/en/products/macro-accessories/focusing-racks/
> 
> ...



Thanks I'll check them out.


----------



## Razor2012 (May 9, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> I use novoflex gear
> 
> http://www.novoflex.com/en/products/macro-accessories/focusing-racks/
> 
> ...



I was reading some reviews and some said they weren't quite good enough for micro-adjustment (beyond 1:1), 1:1 was good though. Also it was stated that the knobs were too small and you had to watch your fingers when removing, etc.


----------



## Razor2012 (May 10, 2012)

Read some reviews on the Velbon Super Mag Slider Macro Rail, well-built, sturdy and inexpensive (around $115).


----------



## revup67 (May 10, 2012)

If you do opt to acquire the MPE-65 the MT 24 EX is the way to go. I picked up a generic Adorama Macro Rail for around $75 (no issues) with a Bogen tripod (heavy duty) and a Manfrotto 701HD head (real smooth) with a safety feature to fine tune the macro rail. I've been able to do a bit of DOF stacking with that setup though the MPE-65 is not for the faint at heart. Takes some time getting used to. With the flash and lens on a 7D its a bit heavy to hand hold and most shoot at F16 to get max depth of field as there is barely none to begin with. At F16 and 5x you are really shooting at 5x16= F80! a black hole literally. You'll need to use live view almost exclusively and zoom in at 5 or 10 to be sure you are in focus. Of course you know there's no focus ring After keeping all of that in mind then check this out for your new MT 24EX flash
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUALMOUNT-macro-flash-bracket-holder-fr-speedlight-Nikon-Canon-MT-24EX-/150694981418?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23161eef2a and Stofen diffusers. I put cotton inside mine to kill the harsh flash but have seen where the MT 24EX in manual mode produces some good results.


----------



## Razor2012 (May 10, 2012)

revup67 said:


> If you do opt to acquire the MPE-65 the MT 24 EX is the way to go. I picked up a generic Adorama Macro Rail for around $75 (no issues) with a Bogen tripod (heavy duty) and a Manfrotto 701HD head (real smooth) with a safety feature to fine tune the macro rail. I've been able to do a bit of DOF stacking with that setup though the MPE-65 is not for the faint at heart. Takes some time getting used to. With the flash and lens on a 7D its a bit heavy to hand hold and most shoot at F16 to get max depth of field as there is barely none to begin with. At F16 and 5x you are really shooting at 5x16= F80! a black hole literally. You'll need to use live view almost exclusively and zoom in at 5 or 10 to be sure you are in focus. Of course you know there's no focus ring After keeping all of that in mind then check this out for your new MT 24EX flash
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUALMOUNT-macro-flash-bracket-holder-fr-speedlight-Nikon-Canon-MT-24EX-/150694981418?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23161eef2a and Stofen diffusers. I put cotton inside mine to kill the harsh flash but have seen where the MT 24EX in manual mode produces some good results.



Thanks Rev, I had just actually seen those while browsing on eBay. How do you like your 100 2.8 macro? I'm still tossing around that, the 180 and the MP 65.


----------



## keithfullermusic (May 10, 2012)

I have the 100 2.8 non L and I think it's an amazing lens. There isnt anything that i would change about it. I've never used the L, so I can't comment on it.

Just curious, why do you like the 65 so much? It's my understanding that you have to get really close to your subject with the 65, and that often times makes it harder (bugs and things like that).


----------



## kirispupis (May 10, 2012)

Personally, I am sorry to be a bit rude but if you are comparing the 100 macro with the MP-E 65, wondering which to buy, then you do not really understand macro and you should therefore stick to the 100mm. These are completely different lenses. I own and heavily use both of them and they have completely different uses. I use my 100L for small things in general - flowers, leaves, knick knacks, etc. My MP-E 65 is used for small bugs. I almost never use my MP-E 65 without an MT-24EX and CP-E4 (for longer battery life + quicker firing).

Here is a rather typical shot taken with the 100L (handheld)





http://500px.com/photo/7019881

Here is a rather typical shot taken with the MP-E 65 (handheld)




http://500px.com/photo/7389001

While I shoot most of my macro hand held, I do take some tripod based shots. I do this most often with flowers - which means the 100L or TS-E 90. I also use a tripod for my drop photography, but that is more for repeatability than for stabilization.

Keep in mind that if you are interested in tripod based macro, besides the obvious macro rail you'll need a very flexible tripod + head. I use a Gitzo 2541EX - which is the Explorer arm type - and an Acratech GP ball head. This allows a good deal of flexibility.

For the macro rails themselves I started with the Kirk rail - which is very similar to the Adorama one (I believe they are made by the same company). I later moved to the RRS two rails system so that I can move in both the X and Y directions. This rail is more precise and stable than the Kirk rail and I like it much better. I have heard that the Novoflex is also very good, but have not used it.

The ultimate rail in terms of precision and flexibility is the Cognisys Stackshot. I own a copy and really like it. I used it to take this stacked shot. Note that I still use my RRS rails with it for X and coarse Y adjustments.




Crocus by CalevPhoto, on Flickr

Note that a bellows is significantly different from a macro rail. You can use a bellows + certain lenses to achieve similar magnification (and greater) than the MP-E 65 but you lose the flexibility because a bellows is significantly larger and general is confined to a tripod. I have seen some people use a Nikon bellows with Canon. There are other options if you really want to go that route, but personally I find the MP-E 65 so much more useful and if I wanted higher magnification I would just attach a microscope objective to the front.


----------



## Razor2012 (May 10, 2012)

keithfullermusic said:


> I have the 100 2.8 non L and I think it's an amazing lens. There isnt anything that i would change about it. I've never used the L, so I can't comment on it.
> 
> Just curious, why do you like the 65 so much? It's my understanding that you have to get really close to your subject with the 65, and that often times makes it harder (bugs and things like that).



That's true, there's alot more work involved with the 65, but in the end the results are amazing. I love detail and the 5x just takes it that much beyond 1:1. I'm still contemplating the 100 and the 180 macros.


----------



## Razor2012 (May 10, 2012)

kirispupis said:


> Personally, I am sorry to be a bit rude but if you are comparing the 100 macro with the MP-E 65, wondering which to buy, then you do not really understand macro and you should therefore stick to the 100mm. These are completely different lenses. I own and heavily use both of them and they have completely different uses. I use my 100L for small things in general - flowers, leaves, knick knacks, etc. My MP-E 65 is used for small bugs. I almost never use my MP-E 65 without an MT-24EX and CP-E4 (for longer battery life + quicker firing).
> 
> While I shoot most of my macro hand held, I do take some tripod based shots. I do this most often with flowers - which means the 100L or TS-E 90. I also use a tripod for my drop photography, but that is more for repeatability than for stabilization.
> 
> ...



Heh, no I'm not comparing the 2 lenses, I'm just deciding which route I want to go. BTW nice handheld with the 65.


----------



## keithfullermusic (May 10, 2012)

I didn't realize the 65 was 5x. I thought it was the same as e 100, so that's a very good reason to prefer it over the 100.


----------



## ShokTHX (May 13, 2012)

I am guessing using the flash is what makes hand held possible? Last time I really did macro work was with an AV-1 and a third party bellows. :

James



kirispupis said:


> Personally, I am sorry to be a bit rude but if you are comparing the 100 macro with the MP-E 65, wondering which to buy, then you do not really understand macro and you should therefore stick to the 100mm. These are completely different lenses. I own and heavily use both of them and they have completely different uses. I use my 100L for small things in general - flowers, leaves, knick knacks, etc. My MP-E 65 is used for small bugs. I almost never use my MP-E 65 without an MT-24EX and CP-E4 (for longer battery life + quicker firing).
> 
> Here is a rather typical shot taken with the 100L (handheld)
> 
> ...


----------



## Vossie (May 13, 2012)

I am using a Sigma 180 f/3.5 EX. To be honest, I use it very unfrequently, but I do like the build quality and the IQ. One of the advantages of a longer macro lens is a slightly longer working distance.

Below a shot I took today of a flower in my living room.
EOS 30D; f/3.5; 1/125; ISO 100; natural light; -1/3 EV; Gitzo tripod; no post-processing, just slight crop.


----------



## Marsu42 (May 13, 2012)

ShokTHX said:


> I am guessing using the flash is what makes hand held possible?



The 100L has IS, but as you might know when going to macro range, the internal optics of a real macro lens drag the effective aperture down - Canon bodies conceal this while Nikon shows it, IS cannot compensate this completely. So when shooting at 1:1 for 100% crop sharpness, handheld with a reasonable depth of field needs many exposures and if you're lucky one is sharp. The advantage of the 100L is dual-use portrait capability and weather sealing. At very close range, the flash might even cast a shadow on the object due to the lens being in the way (set your flash manually to wide angle or use 1-2 remote flashes next to the object).


----------



## kirispupis (May 13, 2012)

ShokTHX said:


> I am guessing using the flash is what makes hand held possible? Last time I really did macro work was with an AV-1 and a third party bellows. :
> 
> James



The flash does make it possible to hand hold the MP-E 65. With the 100L, I rarely use flash. There, the high ISO capabilities of the 5D3 are enough to usually get a good shot without flash + flash tends to hurt the image IMHO.


----------



## drjlo (May 14, 2012)

keithfullermusic said:


> I didn't realize the 65 was 5x. I thought it was the same as e 100, so that's a very good reason to prefer it over the 100.



Or a very good reason to choose 100! MP-E 65 is not a lens to just attach to camera and take some macro shots. At 5X or near, any tiny disturbance in wind, ground, hand, etc act like tornado's resulting in blurred shots. It does not even have a manual focus ring, nevermind AF. Sturdy tripod with good macro focusing rail, combined with remote shutter release and ring flash become mandatory, not optional.


----------



## Razor2012 (May 14, 2012)

drjlo said:


> keithfullermusic said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't realize the 65 was 5x. I thought it was the same as e 100, so that's a very good reason to prefer it over the 100.
> ...



For sure there's a lot more work and patience involved, including expense, but the images you get in the end are worth it. Might just get the 100 though.


----------



## Razor2012 (May 15, 2012)

I just picked up the 100 2.8L, can hardly wait to use it.


----------



## wickidwombat (May 16, 2012)

Razor2012 said:


> I just picked up the 100 2.8L, can hardly wait to use it.



let me know if you get any funny noises from the IS on the 5Dmk3


----------



## Razor2012 (May 16, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> Razor2012 said:
> 
> 
> > I just picked up the 100 2.8L, can hardly wait to use it.
> ...



None that I have noticed, did you get some?


----------

