# Quad-Pixel AF and a global shutter coming in 2021?



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 18, 2021)

> Are Quad-Pixel AF and a global shutter coming in 2021 to the new flagship EOS R camera? It’s a strong possibility according to a good source.
> Canon continues to develop their flagship EOS R system camera, a camera most of us have dubbed the EOS R1. The camera is reported to be shown to the world ahead of the Tokyo Summer Games which begin in July of this year.
> One feature that will be coming to the camera according to a very solid source is a Quad-Pixel AF system. QPAF would improve autofocus accuracy no matter what orientation the subject or the camera is in.
> The same source claims that there is a possibility that a global shutter will appear in the EOS R1. For those that don’t know, this would effectively remove rolling shutter when shooting video or stills in the electronic shutter mode. There are challenges to making this happen, but it is still on the table for the camera.
> There has been no mention of sensor...



Continue reading...


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## snappy604 (Jan 18, 2021)

whoa... the floodgates opened indeed.


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## Chaitanya (Jan 18, 2021)

How many days left for olympics?


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## -pekr- (Jan 18, 2021)

If upcoming new entry level RF camera does not have this quad-pixel AF, then Canon is *******!


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## Mark3794 (Jan 18, 2021)

Imagine Canon beating Sony on global shutter.


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## slclick (Jan 18, 2021)

Chaitanya said:


> How many days left for olympics?


185 Days


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## tianxiaozhang (Jan 18, 2021)

Exciting times...


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## unfocused (Jan 18, 2021)

slclick said:


> 185 Days


Give or take 300.


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## Pete (Jan 18, 2021)

Fascinating! These are exciting times in the photography world. And the future is even more thrilling since Artificial Intelligence is only beginning to affect photographic abilities. It boggles the mind to think what may be coming!


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## DrToast (Jan 18, 2021)

I'd be surprised if the camera had 8K. The 1D body has always prioritized FPS, and 8K resolution would limit that.


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## Joules (Jan 18, 2021)

DrToast said:


> I'd be surprised if the camera had 8K. The 1D body has always prioritized FPS, and 8K resolution would limit that.


Sure, but 20 is not too shabby in terms of FPS. And that's what the R5 does in electronic shutter mode. And it is just the minimum FPS to be expected of the R1, unless quad pixel AF sets them back in terms of throughput again.


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## AccipiterQ (Jan 18, 2021)

wait...quad pixel???? Isn't the 7D usually a mini-1D? Would that imply dual pixel on the R7?


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## Robert Marxreiter (Jan 18, 2021)

Nope, the R5 is capable of sustained 8K 30FPS RAW Video, so the performance is clearly there. So the question is rather whether they would sacrifice that for a global shutter which would be easier to implement with lower resolution.
If it came out with 8k capability they would most likely support downsampling to lower resolution RAWs in-camera.



DrToast said:


> I'd be surprised if the camera had 8K. The 1D body has always prioritized FPS, and 8K resolution would limit that.


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## Nigel95 (Jan 18, 2021)

@dolina Your overly confident predictions don't held up well if this rumor is right. About the R1 not launching before 2024.


I repeat my previous post.



Nigel95 said:


> If something happened (or not) in the past, doesn't tell us what will happen in the future.
> If the 'past' would tell us everything. Then we would never be surprised any more in the future? Yet we are constantly being surprised by rare events or the info that we didn't know.
> 
> I know we are on a rumors forum where we try to speculate. You appear very confident too me with your statements (other comments on the forum as well). The danger about that I think is that in reality, how much puzzle pieces do you really have of the whole puzzle (all variables that effect on this)? In fact you don't know how many puzzle pieces really exist. Just because you have a little bit of info doesn't mean you can predict the future.



Out of curiousity are you a stock trader?


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## Nigel95 (Jan 18, 2021)

AccipiterQ said:


> wait...quad pixel???? Isn't the 7D usually a mini-1D? Would that imply dual pixel on the R7?


Let's go!!


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## padam (Jan 18, 2021)

The RED Komodo does have a global shutter and the sensor is Canon-derived, so it is not impossible.

But in this case, it's definitely a much newer, more higher-end camera than the 1DX Mark III and the price will reflect that.


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## fox40phil (Jan 18, 2021)

padam said:


> The RED Komodo does have a global shutter and the sensor is Canon-derived, so it is not impossible.
> 
> But in this case, it's definitely a much newer, more higher-end camera than the 1DX Mark III and the price will reflect that.


Is the Komodo sensor a 5DIV/R one as a APS-C one?

Global Shutter and ~30MP R1 would be insane!


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## padam (Jan 18, 2021)

fox40phil said:


> Is the Komodo sensor a 5DIV/R one as a APS-C one?
> 
> Global Shutter and ~30MP R1 would be insane!


Some sources have claimed that it is a 6K 1.4x crop variant of the 8K R5 sensor.
That is why it has AF and an RF-mount and the pixel pitch seems to be the same as well.
So maybe a new 6K FF sensor with global shutter is possible.


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## Maximilian (Jan 18, 2021)

Very interesting. I'm curious about how much QPAF could improve the AF performance furthermore.


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## docsmith (Jan 18, 2021)

Yes to QPAF. The DPAF II is very good, but if Canon has something better, excellent. Global shutter, the readout on the R5 is getting to be very fast. I actually wonder if you could speed the line by line read out up to the point where a true global shutter would not be all that necessary. I think it was ~5 years ago, I looked into this and line by line readout was taking ~1/20th to 1/40th of a second, hence there was a difference from when the top of the sensor was read to the bottom of the sensor. But the R5, I have not seen it estimated, but it has to be much, much faster read time. 

As for sensor size, I am still expecting the R1 to follow the 1DX sensor size, maybe a small bump in resolution, but up to the point where it will support 8K, that would surprise me.


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## Maximilian (Jan 18, 2021)

Chaitanya said:


> How many days left for olympics?


My guess: 3 1/2 years until summer olympics Paris 2024 as Tokyo 2020/21 will be canceled because of COVID-19.

As for winter games I have hope for winter 2022 if the vaccines can be distributed fast enough...


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## goldenhusky (Jan 18, 2021)

Global shutter is truly exciting news. May be I should wait for this a skip the R5 all together. I would definitely need 40+ MP purely for cropping wildlife pics. 20 something will not cut it for me. Personally I do not care about 8k if this camera did sharp 4k60p that as good as 4k HQ mode in the R5 without crop (obviously there is aspect ratio crop) that would be plenty. If the above said happens Sony will be *******  ... just kidding. The real loser so far is Nikon. Hopefully they turn around too. We definitely need competition otherwise Canon will become lame duck again like they were between 2014 till 2019.


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## goldenhusky (Jan 18, 2021)

QPAF is exciting too!


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## LensFungus (Jan 18, 2021)

Sony is ******* because they will reveal Flat Earth Shutter.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 18, 2021)

With a quad pixel sensor, a 20 MP sensor is sending 80 MP worth of data to the processor, a 30 MP would be possible, but quad pixel is not a variant of a R5 sensor unless it has quad pixel already there. A global shutter requires memory for each pixel, so a layered sensor would be likely to do all of that. It would bump up the cost. The heat generated from all that is a issue as well, so 8K seems unlikely.


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## mb66energy (Jan 18, 2021)

goldenhusky said:


> Global shutter is truly exciting news. *May be I should wait for this a skip the R5 all together.* I would definitely need 40+ MP purely for cropping wildlife pics. 20 something will not cut it for me. Personally I do not care about 8k if this camera did sharp 4k60p that as good as 4k HQ mode in the R5 without crop (obviously there is aspect ratio crop) that would be plenty. If the above said happens Sony will be *******  ... just kidding. The real loser so far is Nikon. Hopefully they turn around too. We definitely need competition otherwise Canon will become lame duck again like they were between 2014 till 2019.


Was my first thought after seeing QPAF & global shutter! I am not shure if the right cam for me is the R6 or the R5 but the price difference isn't that vast ( if you have the money ) and R5 gives you more MPix which might be good for large prints or stonger cropping.

DPAF drove me nuts in some situation so I had to tilt the camera a little bit to help AF but that is no good idea for movies during tracking ... so QPAF is very welcome to make AF just that bit more effective.

Global shutter would be very welcome for video - I really hate those subtle artifacts which destroy the natural apearance of movies ...


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## mb66energy (Jan 18, 2021)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> With a quad pixel sensor, a 20 MP sensor is sending 80 MP worth of data to the processor, a 30 MP would be possible, but quad pixel is not a variant of a R5 sensor unless it has quad pixel already there. A global shutter requires memory for each pixel, so a layered sensor would be likely to do all of that. It would bump up the cost. *The heat generated from all that is a issue as well*, so 8K seems unlikely.


Maybe a version for the wintergames - no need for gloves.


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## dolina (Jan 18, 2021)

Nigel95 said:


> @dolina Your overly confident predictions don't held up well if this rumor is right. About the R1 not launching before 2024.
> 
> 
> I repeat my previous post.
> ...


Reason why I do not believe why a 1-Series MILC will come out in 2021 as of this writing

Canon Inc is a for profit company that will produce products in line with customers needs/wants so long as it is profitable
Customers of the 1-Series like bulk buying photo news agencies surveyed between 2017-2020 wanted an SLR and not a MILC
EF 600mm & 400mm were updated to Series III in 5-Sep-2018
1D X Mark III was announced 378 days ago and was initially released in some markets on February 2020 while others got it as late as July 2020
Market for flagship bodies is too small to support more than 1 "new" one at the same time
Having 2 "new" flagships at the same time would halve that market, doubles the R&D cost and would not pay for the R&D of last year's model
1D X Series sees a replacement every ~4 years to coincide with the Summer Olympics that occurs months later
Not enough RF mount lenses
No 300mm, 400mm, 500mm, 600mm or even 800mm are available now
This year's Olympics is 6 months away and there is not much lead time for the R1 to come out.
The wants/wishes of outliers like those on a photo forum does not reflect the totality of the photographic market
Rumors of flagship models gets a lot of clicks. How many times has CR published rumors of a Series II 800/5.6 or 200/2.0?
Back orders for the R5 & R6 are high and are produced in batches on demand.
Rescheduled 2020 Summer Olympics occurring in July 2021 may even happen
Will the R1 be priced at

$4,499 to compete with the Sony a9 II?
$6,499 to compete with Nikon and Canon's 1D X Mark III?
$7,149 to cover any development cost projected reduction of economies of scale?
As courtesy to people who do not give any citation for their counter position I did a bit of snooping for you

549 days is the shortest product cycle between 1-Series bodies
This occured 22-Feb-2007 to 20-Oct-2009 from 1D Mark II to 1D Mark IIn
As applied to the 1D X Mark III the R1 would have come out 22-Jul-2022, 2 days before the Olympics
An R1 in 2021 could happen but it is unlikely to occur until Q1 2024

I feel safer with FAANG

Idealized R1 release would go like this

7-Jan-2020 would announce the R1
2018 would announce the RF mount 600mm, 400mm, 70-200/2.8 IS, 70-200/4 IS, etc.
2018-2020 would announce 200/2.0, 300/2.8, 500/4 or even 800/5.6
To be honest I was surprised Canon even bothered offering the 1D X Mark III because of the RP, R and Ra bodies then it dawned on me that those buying a 1-Series body are very conservative with their mission-critical hardware so prefer SLRs over MILC.


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## [email protected] (Jan 18, 2021)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> With a quad pixel sensor, a 20 MP sensor is sending 80 MP worth of data to the processor, a 30 MP would be possible, but quad pixel is not a variant of a R5 sensor unless it has quad pixel already there. A global shutter requires memory for each pixel, so a layered sensor would be likely to do all of that. It would bump up the cost. The heat generated from all that is a issue as well, so 8K seems unlikely.



From a user perspective, I will say that one of the very few issues I have with the R5 is the radically different AF capabilities it has on vertical lines versus horizontal lines. I don't find it a problem often, but it'll suddenly become a problem occasionally. Fixing this is a minor issue for me, and I think most others. Similarly, the rolling shutter on the R5 is so slight, that my desire for a global shutter has waned as a priority. It would be nice to have both of these new capabilities, but if I had to shoot a 24mp camera for it, it would be a big fat net loss.

To Mt Spokane's comments above: There are Canon patents dealing with on-sensor circuitry to produce pixel values from photosite values prior to sending off to memory/processor, so I don't think it necessarily multiplies the throughput required. I agree that a layered sensor would make most sense to accomplish all of this. Also that heat will be one of the biggest limitations.


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## Nigel95 (Jan 18, 2021)

dolina said:


> As courtesy to people who do not give any citation for their counter position I did a bit of snooping for you
> 
> 549 days is the shortest product cycle between 1-Series bodies
> This occured 22-Feb-2007 to 20-Oct-2009 from 1D Mark II to 1D Mark IIn
> ...


I simply don't speculate because my knowledge today doesn't believe in predicting the future. Randomness has the last word. Your posts just toke my attention, you appear overly confident in my opinion with your statements with some loose bits of info you gathered. I would recommend you to read Nicholas Taleb fooled by randomness if you have some spare time.


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## Stig Nygaard (Jan 18, 2021)

Quad-Pixel Af, 8K and global shutter in one and same camera? I find that very hard to believe.
An earlier rumour talked about a 21MPixel sensor/camera with global shutter. I find that much more likely.
But maybe it is two-track development. A 21MP camera with global shutter, and a 45MP/8K camera with "normal" shutter? Which one to be release maybe to be decided later? Maybe both? ;-)


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## dolina (Jan 18, 2021)

Nigel95 said:


> I simply don't speculate because my knowledge today doesn't believe in predicting the future. Randomness has the last word. Your posts just toke my attention, you appear overly confident in my opinion with your statements with some loose bits of info you gathered. I would recommend you to read Nicholas Taleb fooled by randomness if you have some spare time.


My speculation is based on precedence. Your point of view has little substance.

Perhaps grounding your position on evidence or even some data may make your words be more compelling to be taken seriously.


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## navastronia (Jan 18, 2021)

Stig Nygaard said:


> Quad-Pixel Af, 8K and global shutter in one and same camera? I find that very hard to believe.
> An earlier rumour talked about a 21MPixel sensor/camera with global shutter. I find that much more likely.
> But maybe it is two-track development. A 21MP camera with global shutter, and a 45MP/8K camera with "normal" shutter? Which one to be release maybe to be decided later? Maybe both? ;-)



Yes, I doubt very much the R1 will have 8K, since that would require a much larger sensor than is typical for that product line.


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## navastronia (Jan 18, 2021)

QPAF would be terrific for such a camera, since autofocus speed and accuracy are job #1 for a sports camera, IMO.

Regarding the other specs, I would be happy if the R1 has either: 1) global shutter, or 2) IBIS. I'll only be disappointed if it has neither one! 

Personally, I'd be down for 26-30 MP. That seems like plenty for this body.


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## Lucas Tingley (Jan 18, 2021)

still cant afford the r1


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## Daner (Jan 18, 2021)

Having tried out the 1D X Mark III, I think that the primary target audience for the R1 would be most interested in QPAF. Since the R5 and R6 have it, it seems natural to include IBIS. Since nobody else has it, global shutter seems to me to be more of a nice-to-have than a needs-to-have feature, but I am sure that it will be appreciated if it appears. 8K seems unnecessary and unlikely, as it is not likely to feature a high-res sensor. 4K/120 with awesome AF should be sufficient.


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## Quackator (Jan 18, 2021)

How come everybody salivates at global shutter for video and nobody mentions the 800lb gorilla in the room: Flash?

Sync at all shutter speeds. Fill flash across 100ft distances with fast big flash units.....


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## domo_p1000 (Jan 18, 2021)

I need to sell several big things... or do I just start saving now for the R1 MkII and give the 1DX3 the four-year hard-working life it deserves?!!
More seriously, this product line tends not to be at the cutting edge of video resolution, so 8K would likely present too many technological hurdles or unnecessary compromises over the more typical feature list on a press camera. (Not that video has ever interested me, although I am pleased to be using my 1DX2 as my Zoom and Teams webcam!)


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## Robert Marxreiter (Jan 18, 2021)

My thoughts exactly. Can't wait to use on camera fill flash on a sunny day for group portraits at 800mm. 



Quackator said:


> How come everybody salivates at global shutter for video and nobody mentions the 800lb gorilla in the room: Flash?
> 
> Sync at all shutter speeds. Fill flash across 100ft distances with fast big flash units.....


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## Nigel95 (Jan 18, 2021)

dolina said:


> My speculation is based on precedence. Your point of view has little substance.
> 
> Perhaps grounding your position on evidence or even some data may make your words be more compelling to be taken seriously.


This is exactly how stock traders react if you confront them that stock-picking is an illusion of skill (see Daniel Kahneman, thinking fast and slow work). It's their job so they rather defend it. What would you rather like to hear when doing your work that your skilled or based on luck? People tend to see personal outcomes more as a result of skill. While outcomes of other are more a result of randomness in their eyes (look up contribution bias). Predicting the future accurate is an illusion as well IMO. To many variables going on in the world and rare events.

If you didn't like Fooled by Randomness by Nicholas Taleb try the book from Daniel Kahneman, thinking fast and slow. The evidence you asked can be find over there. Widely respected guy and a Nobel Prize winner. Try not to be biased against me just because I quoted you about your speculation about the release date of the R1. I highly recommend those books, give them a read with an open mind. If your opinion is still different after that no worries. Each on their own.

The problem IMO in your previous posts is you gather loose bits of info and make up a story of it (and seem extremely confident about it). Based on some research you think you have the whole picture and can predict the future. In reality you have a few pieces (information) of the puzzle. What if the pieces (of information) you don't own and you don't know exist, have a bigger effect on the outcome than the pieces you already have (info)?

Look up illusion of validity a cognitive bias. Last week you seem overly confident the R1 doesn't get released this year or before 2024 (just because that is the pattern Canon usually follows with the 1DX). This rumor is pointing in a different direction (if it's true idk, time will tell). I don't speculate on that just noticing some fallacies in your posts. Let me do the search for you ' *Illusion of validity* is a cognitive bias in which a person overestimates his or her ability to interpret and predict accurately the outcome when analysing a set of data, in particular when the data analysed show a very consistent pattern—that is, when the data "tell" a coherent story '

Since your also into trading have a look here as well: The Illusion of Stock-picking .


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## definedphotography (Jan 18, 2021)

Stig Nygaard said:


> Quad-Pixel Af, 8K and global shutter in one and same camera? I find that very hard to believe.
> An earlier rumour talked about a 21MPixel sensor/camera with global shutter. I find that much more likely.



I'm with you on resolution. Its not going to be 8K/40+MP but more likely close to the current 1Dx series (20-24-28MP). And I doubt it will be released before the Olympics. There might be some in testing there though.


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## MiJax (Jan 18, 2021)

Quackator said:


> How come everybody salivates at global shutter for video and nobody mentions the 800lb gorilla in the room: Flash?
> 
> Sync at all shutter speeds. Fill flash across 100ft distances with fast big flash units.....



I like the idea of a global shutter for action photography, the ability to shoot silent is addicting to my wildlife photography. The only requirement I would have is they need to output the full 14 bit file. 

As you mention, native high speed flash sync would be cool, but I rarely use flashes. That makes it more like the cute 2 pound kitty in the corner.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 18, 2021)

Quackator said:


> How come everybody salivates at global shutter for video and nobody mentions the 800lb gorilla in the room: Flash?
> 
> Sync at all shutter speeds. Fill flash across 100ft distances with fast big flash units.....


Because most people don't understand flash sync, and those that do think that global shutters are the answer to everything, they aren't. Find me a fast big flash unit that doesn't cost $1,000's, cameras and flashes have grown up together and whilst very low power flashes can have exceptionally fast durations once you want any kind of power output the duration time goes way up. Most flashes will have a full power duration close to 1/200 sec because that is what they have needed to be because that is general shutter sync speed, one begat the other.


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## Andy Westwood (Jan 18, 2021)

I'm not sure if this camera will shoot in 8K but I fear it might cost 8K to buy one


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## EOS 4 Life (Jan 18, 2021)

Robert Marxreiter said:


> If it came out with 8k capability they would most likely support downsampling to lower resolution RAWs in-camera.


One does not downsample to RAW


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## dolina (Jan 18, 2021)

Nigel95 said:


> This is exactly how stock traders react if you confront them that stock-picking is an illusion of skill (see Daniel Kahneman, thinking fast and slow work). It's their job so they rather defend it. What would you rather like to hear when doing your work that your skilled or based on luck? People tend to see personal outcomes more as a result of skill. While outcomes of other are more a result of randomness in their eyes (look up contribution bias). Predicting the future accurate is an illusion as well IMO. To many variables going on in the world and rare events.
> 
> If you didn't like Fooled by Randomness by Nicholas Taleb try the book from Daniel Kahneman, thinking fast and slow. The evidence you asked can be find over there. Widely respected guy and a Nobel Prize winner. Try not to be biased against me just because I quoted you about your speculation about the release date of the R1. I highly recommend those books, give them a read with an open mind. If your opinion is still different after that no worries. Each on their own.
> 
> ...



Lotsa words with little to say. Pls tag me when you have any evidence other than rumors to back up the R1. Better yet reply back when you buy your R1.

For those wondering I did not participate in this thread until he tagged me.


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## arbitrage (Jan 18, 2021)

This all sounds great but none of it matters unless they can give us a true live feed off the sensor to the EVF at the top FPS in ES. The 20FPS slideshow on the R5/R6 is great in that it is blackout free (as is the 12FPS MS slideshow) but it is still a slideshow and if you take your finger off the shutter mid-way in a burst you are brought back to the live EVF view and realize what you've been looking at for the past second or so wasn't reality. This can be a bit jolting and interfere with getting a second burst off as the subject (in my case BIF) gets closer. 

Currently I spend my shooting days doing about 50% with R5 and 50% with A9II. The one big difference I notice in tracking the faster, erratic BIF is the slideshow of the R5 compared to the A9II's live feed. But the R5's EVF shooting experience at top FPS is still well ahead of anything else out there that I've tried (A7RIV, Z7, Z50) other than the A9/A9II.

My final verdict on the R5's AF and EVF shooting experience will come this spring when I finally get my swallows back to shoot with the R5.


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## TAF (Jan 18, 2021)

I wonder if the R1 will have a somewhat larger body than the R5? I just received my R5, and am enjoying learning a new camera (my 5D3 was exact 7 years old when I traded it for the R5). But I find the R5 body just a little small on the left side; the right side fits my hand nicely, and I can reach all the buttons, but the left doesn’t offer as much purchase as the 5D3 did.

Not that I would go back, but I would seriously consider an upgrade going forward for a more comfortable hold.


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## padam (Jan 18, 2021)

TAF said:


> I wonder if the R1 will have a somewhat larger body than the R5? I just received my R5, and am enjoying learning a new camera (my 5D3 was exact 7 years old when I traded it for the R5). But I find the R5 body just a little small on the left side; the right side fits my hand nicely, and I can reach all the buttons, but the left doesn’t offer as much purchase as the 5D3 did.
> 
> Not that I would go back, but I would seriously consider an upgrade going forward for a more comfortable hold.


BG-R10, problem solved, the R1 will be heavier than an R5 with a battery grip.


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## mdcmdcmdc (Jan 18, 2021)

goldenhusky said:


> The real loser so far is Nikon. Hopefully they turn around too. We definitely need competition otherwise Canon will become lame duck again like they were between 2014 till 2019.


Indeed. While I've never been a fan of their cameras, I think it would be tragic for the industry if they were to bail.


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## Robert Marxreiter (Jan 18, 2021)

Oh yes they do. Just look at the D850 with its MRAW and SRAW options.



EOS 4 Life said:


> One does not downsample to RAW


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## Tangent (Jan 18, 2021)

dolina said:


> Lotsa words with little to say.



Are you new here?


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## Daner (Jan 18, 2021)

Quackator said:


> How come everybody salivates at global shutter for video and nobody mentions the 800lb gorilla in the room: Flash?
> 
> Sync at all shutter speeds. Fill flash across 100ft distances with fast big flash units.....



None of which is worth a damn if the venue doesn't permit flash photography. Red-carpet reception lines might, but most sporting events and concerts do not.


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## dolina (Jan 18, 2021)

Tangent said:


> Are you new here?


You made my day.  Thanks!


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## Hector1970 (Jan 18, 2021)

dolina said:


> Reason why I do not believe why a 1-Series MILC will come out in 2021 as of this writing
> 
> Canon Inc is a for profit company that will produce products in line with customers needs/wants so long as it is profitable
> Customers of the 1-Series like bulk buying photo news agencies surveyed between 2017-2020 wanted an SLR and not a MILC
> ...



Some reasonable points here. Canon had a great year in 2020 it really went on the front foot and all out on mirrorless.
The 1DX III was almost like an anomaly. It really did seem to be designed with the Olympics in mind and by asking professional sports photographers what they want. While its not necessarily a bad strategy its a conservative one. Following the needs of people who are happy with what they have you may not be catering for a new upcoming generation of sports photographers who may see some of the benefits of mirrorless. Especially if mirrorless autofocus proves better than autofocus with a mirror. 
I think Canon can make an R1 better is all ways than the 1DXIII except in terms of battery life. 
If they don't do that, Sony surely will. 
For the me the lack of lens is less of an issue as the EF lens will work fine on it.
They perhaps only need to bring out an RF 400mm 2.8 .

If they do bring it out the price will be premium again on the 1DX III
I think they will also have until 2022 to have it ready for the Olympics. For me this is another reason why it might arrive. 
I don't think the Olympics would work out at all if it were held this year.


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## Hector1970 (Jan 18, 2021)

goldenhusky said:


> We definitely need competition otherwise Canon will become lame duck again like they were between 2014 till 2019.


Sure Competition is good for Canon and for Canon users but I would say it was far from a lame duck from 2014 to 2019. 
In that period I bought the 5DIII (which was a 2012 release I think (great camera but unfortunately couldn't swim in the sea), a 5DSR and a 5DIV.
The 5DIII and 5DIV in particular are excellent cameras. The 5DSR is great at ISO 100 and on a tripod. I would call them no excuse cameras. If you can't take a good photograph with them its not because they are a bad camera but that the photographer needs to improve. 
I never felt the need or want to switch to Sony cameras in this period.
Canon have certainly pulled out all the stops with the R5 and R6 and mirroless has advantages. It would be very hard to show side by side on the same subject a better image from them than a 5DIV.


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## ronaldzimmerman.nl (Jan 18, 2021)

Autofocus points that are cross type would be amazing! It’s the only real shortcoming of the R5.


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## peters (Jan 18, 2021)

If its a sports camera I doubt it will have 8k (45mpixel). I bet its more like 30mpixel and 6k or something. Though I might be wrong. Since they managed to get 45mpixel with 20fps out of the R5, it may be very well possible for the R1...

Coming from the R5 I mostly hope for:
- a full size HDMI port
- 4k50 and 4k100 without overheat and with audio
- 1080p480
- more physical buttons (especialy a mode dial, dedicated ISO button and WB button)


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## usern4cr (Jan 18, 2021)

DrToast said:


> I'd be surprised if the camera had 8K. The 1D body has always prioritized FPS, and 8K resolution would limit that.


I think that an R1 would have to have 4K video, with quad pixels apparently.
But I can see that having 8K and quad pixels might be too much.
I've heard of 6K Apple monitors being sought by some lately.
So I wonder if they may have 6K quad pixel video? That might be a compromise they can afford.


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## dolina (Jan 18, 2021)

Hector1970 said:


> Some reasonable points here. Canon had a great year in 2020 it really went on the front foot and all out on mirrorless.
> 
> The 1DX III was almost like an anomaly. It really did seem to be designed with the Olympics in mind and by asking professional sports photographers what they want. While its not necessarily a bad strategy its a conservative one.
> 
> ...


Note... this is how you have a discussion.

2020 turned out better than projected by Canon. A few months back it was reported they have inched into 45.4% of the a shrinking camera market. To me that means that their volume of shipping products was least impacted among all the brands. A good thing if you want Canon to be solvent so your system stays relevant and a bad thing if you want Canon to innovate due to competition.

When the EOS R came out in 2018 it signaled to me that there would be no more further development of the EF mount and whatever bodies made available by Sep 2018 will be continued to be produced until demand is too expensive to cater for.

This makes the 1D X Mark III somewhat of a paradox. I was expecting the R1 in 2020 but often with mission critical hardware you tend to err on being conservative. Last thing Reuters, Getty, EPA, etc want is new tech that may not function as expected.

This is a fundamental reason why I see the R1 to more likely appear by Q1 2024.

Will the release of the R1 significantly offset the loss on the 1D X Mark III? This will cause the Osborne Effect.

It is very difficult and very expensive to move from 1 system to another if you have a large and built up ecosystem in place. My guess is that Sony gave a very generous discount to AP to switch their whole operations to their hardware last year. I would not be surprised that Sony gave up any margin to get them as a client to legitimize their system among photo news agencies.

RF mount lens will perform better than EF mount lens due to more modern engineering and better materials science. Canon needs to transition at least 80% of the L lenses before the R1 would be taken seriously.

If Canon positioned the R1 as more expensive than the $6,499 1D X Mark III then I see it as very probable to come out this year but that would make the Sony a9 II half it's price. 

Will there be a 2022 Olympics?  If I was the OIC I'd push everyone back by 4 years. Tokyo 2024, Paris 2028, etc.


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## dolina (Jan 18, 2021)

peters said:


> If its a sports camera I doubt it will have 8k (45mpixel). I bet its more like 30mpixel and 6k or something. Though I might be wrong. Since they managed to get 45mpixel with 20fps out of the R5, it may be very well possible for the R1...
> 
> Coming from the R5 I mostly hope for:
> - a full size HDMI port
> ...


You can buy a micro HDMI to HDMI cable for cheap.

I think overheating can be avoided when Canon uses 5nm process on their DIGIC chips.


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## David - Sydney (Jan 18, 2021)

DrToast said:


> I'd be surprised if the camera had 8K. The 1D body has always prioritized FPS, and 8K resolution would limit that.


If it has a global shutter then the read speed would be instantaneous (or close enough). The R5 can move 45mp @ 20fps in eshutter mode so the downstream tech is there and 20fps is the current speed of the 1DXiii in eshutter mode (16fps mechanical). 

If the R1 has 2 Digix processors (as previous ones had) then 45mp could be down sampled to ~20mp easily @ 20fps. 

Best of both worlds - high res and high speed!


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## peters (Jan 18, 2021)

dolina said:


> You can buy a micro HDMI to HDMI cable for cheap.
> 
> I think overheating can be avoided when Canon uses 5nm process on their DIGIC chips.


Jeah, we use these, but the port is still SUPER SUPER fragile. No cable or adapter sits tight in such a tiny port. I even use the Smallrig Cage with the clamps for the ports - but its still a very ugly solution. There has to be full-size hdmi. Micro HDMI breaks super easily (as it happend on my GH4). Its by far the worst port out there. Even Mini HDMI is a bad port, but still much better... there would be easily enough space for a bigger port. 

Jeah, I also think that overheating can be SUPER EASILY fixed in a larger body. Just a small heatsink in the grip would do.
This guy custom modded the R5 with a internal heatsink (the watercooling in the titel ist just a first try in the video) and it worked out noteable better. With a big grip like the 1D got, its no problem at all. 




Great Channel btw :-D


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## David - Sydney (Jan 18, 2021)

domo_p1000 said:


> I need to sell several big things... or do I just start saving now for the R1 MkII and give the 1DX3 the four-year hard-working life it deserves?!!
> More seriously, this product line tends not to be at the cutting edge of video resolution, so 8K would likely present too many technological hurdles or unnecessary compromises over the more typical feature list on a press camera. (Not that video has ever interested me, although I am pleased to be using my 1DX2 as my Zoom and Teams webcam!)


The 1D series always had leading video specs. 1DXiii with 4k60 and no overheating is still class leading. The R5 is the single instance of video res being higher than a 1 series


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## dolina (Jan 18, 2021)

peters said:


> Jeah, we use these, but the port is still SUPER SUPER fragile. No cable or adapter sits tight in such a tiny port. I even use the Smallrig Cage with the clamps for the ports - but its still a very ugly solution. There has to be full-size hdmi. Micro HDMI breaks super easily (as it happend on my GH4). Its by far the worst port out there. Even Mini HDMI is a bad port, but still much better... there would be easily enough space for a bigger port.
> 
> Jeah, I also think that overheating can be SUPER EASILY fixed in a larger body. Just a small heatsink in the grip would do.
> This guy custom modded the R5 with a internal heatsink (the watercooling in the titel ist just a first try in the video) and it worked out noteable better. With a big grip like the 1D got, its no problem at all.
> ...


Good point about the micro HDMI being fragile but how do you fit a full sized HDMI onto it though? A main draw of MILC is supposed to make it smaller than SLR. I'm thankful Canon did not do an Apple and force people to use USB-C as the sole port of their devices.

Also watched that video. Doesn't Canon have a 8K body that does not overheat?


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## HarryFilm (Jan 18, 2021)

arbitrage said:


> This all sounds great but none of it matters unless they can give us a true live feed off the sensor to the EVF at the top FPS in ES. The 20FPS slideshow on the R5/R6 is great in that it is blackout free (as is the 12FPS MS slideshow) but it is still a slideshow and if you take your finger off the shutter mid-way in a burst you are brought back to the live EVF view and realize what you've been looking at for the past second or so wasn't reality. This can be a bit jolting and interfere with getting a second burst off as the subject (in my case BIF) gets closer.
> 
> Currently I spend my shooting days doing about 50% with R5 and 50% with A9II. The one big difference I notice in tracking the faster, erratic BIF is the slideshow of the R5 compared to the A9II's live feed. But the R5's EVF shooting experience at top FPS is still well ahead of anything else out there that I've tried (A7RIV, Z7, Z50) other than the A9/A9II.
> 
> My final verdict on the R5's AF and EVF shooting experience will come this spring when I finally get my swallows back to shoot with the R5.




----

"....This all sounds great but none of it matters unless they can give us a true live feed off the sensor to the EVF at the top FPS in ES. ...."

If you want to go all crazy in terms of FPS for a live-view display, I have a few 10,000 fps CMOS micro-LED RGB emitters in our inventory (we make them in-house!). Would THAT work for ya? Right now they are 4096 by 2160 pixels with a two-frame latency (1/5,000ths of a second delay) from photon capture, DSP and 64-bit RGBA pixel conversion/export to final micro-LED display/emission so that is actually VERY VERY VERY GOOD compared to an all-optical viewfinder !!!

While they are a tad expensive right now at $15,000 CDN per chip we should be able to drop them at around $750 per chip within two years and $300 CDN in four years!

V


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## peters (Jan 18, 2021)

dolina said:


> Good point about the micro HDMI being fragile but how do you fit a full sized HDMI onto it though? A main draw of MILC is supposed to make it smaller than SLR. I'm thankful Canon did not do an Apple and force people to use USB-C as the sole port of their devices.
> 
> Also watched that video. Doesn't Canon have a 8K body that does not overheat?


The Panasonic GH5 (along many other Panas) got a fullsize HDMI Port and its a noteable smaller Camera. Same for the Sony A7s III. The Body is big enough, juding from some teardownvideos - I would say just minimal adjustments inside would have allowed for a fullsize HDMI port. Which would have been a BIG improvment in my opinion. HDMI out is super important on this camera - especialy since 4k60 internal overheats after 20-40 minutes while external works perfectly.
I totaly agree on the USB-C of courese =) Thats absolutely no replacment for HDMI at the moment. Though maybe in the future. USB-C is at least better than MICRO hdmi ^^

At the moment, i dont think so. If I am not mistaken, the R5 is the only 8k camera from canon, isnt it? Even flagships like the C700 FF offer "only" 5,9k. 
Not that its an important feature at the moment. I would have absolutely prefered 4k RAW about 8k raw. 4k RAW is sadly not available on the R5. And 8k overheats in 10-15 minutes and is very difficult to edit (proxies is the way to go). It also offers no visible advantage over 4k HQ, if you watch it on a 4k screen (its identical). Unless you need to crop.


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## David - Sydney (Jan 18, 2021)

dolina said:


> Note... this is how you have a discussion.
> 
> 2020 turned out better than projected by Canon. A few months back it was reported they have inched into 45.4% of the a shrinking camera market. To me that means that their volume of shipping products was least impacted among all the brands. A good thing if you want Canon to be solvent so your system stays relevant and a bad thing if you want Canon to innovate due to competition.
> 
> ...


I think that the anchor point to your position is the cost of amortising the R&D for the 1Dxiii over time. We don't have an accurate view of the 1DX sales but it is small. The summer olympics would have been a relative bump in sales though which hasn't happened yet.
Although every camera body has unique R&D costs, the 1DXiii body is recycled from previous models with the exception of the AF smart controller which is a standalone feature. A lot of the SW is based on the same Digic processing as the R5/R6. The downstream tech (processing, memory, bus and cards) is also used in the R5/R6. The 1DXiii sensor has volume based on R6 sales.
Unique R&D costs were the new mechanical shutter and the viewfinder AF system.
Canon needed to release a new 1DX to compete (and beat) Nikon as a halo model. Manufacturers don't always make much money with halo models but they are needed to showcase what is possible as a company as tech slowly flows to lower models.
I fully expect the R1 to have features far in excess of the 1DXiii and charge an appropriately higher cost to segment their top models.


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## HarryFilm (Jan 18, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> The 1D series always had leading video specs. 1DXiii with 4k60 and no overheating is still class leading. The R5 is the single instance of video res being higher than a 1 series



---

If you do the math on the 8K at 30 fps of the Canon R5, a 20 megapixel R1 SHOULD be able to do a little over 42 fps Burst Rate at Full Resolution 3:2 aspect ratio Stills which WOULD make it truly class-leading in pro-sports/action/wildlife photography!

If they change the sensor over to global shutter AND change over to high-sensitivity BicMOS (Bi-Polar Complimentary Metal Oxide Semiconductor)

see link for:
Avalanche photodiode image sensor in standard BiCMOS technology:
(by Alice Bibera, Peter Seitz, Heinz Jäckel)









Avalanche photodiode image sensor in standard BiCMOS technology


To overcome the transistor-induced noise limitations of solid-state image sensors at low light levels, we investigate a programmable camera concept based on an image sensor that employs the avalanche effect for photogenerated charge carriers. Each pixel consists of an avalanche photodiode (APD)...



ieeexplore.ieee.org





This would BLOW AWAY the Sony A7s3 in terms of low-noise at ISO-819200 levels of sensitivity!

We're working on those types ourselves and have a few prototypes in-house but they not ready for prime time yet but will be within four years! These put the Sony Starvis-series of image sensors to shame in terms of full-colour RGB night vision!

V


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## David - Sydney (Jan 18, 2021)

Repeating my previous guess for R1 specs. Combination of R5/1DXiii current capabilities and global shutter/quad pixel AF.
.....
My guess for R1 is minimum specs as R5 but in 1D body ( AF-On smart controller buttons, dual CFe slots) with:
- Global shutter (no mechanical shutter). Rolling shutter artifacts significantly better than current electronic shutter
- 45mp sensor with IBIS (IBIS can be turned off)
- 30fps electronic shutter burst with full tracking - perhaps with buffer ie not unlimited
- ~20mp on-the fly over sampled (no lossy compression/cRAW/S-RAW) at full 30fps unlimited buffer. Best of both worlds.
- Dual Digic X to spread the heat generation and generate less heat per CPU
- Unlimited 8k cinema raw lite internal recording to CFe card capacity
- 6K/60. 4k/120 unlimited no crop internal recording.
- No line skipping/pixel binning 4k/6k modes ie oversampled of full sensor width
- 29:59 recording limit
- Clog2/3
- minimum 16fps using anti-flicker depending on frequency of the flicker lighting
- AF in very low light (quad pixel makes sense but would be equivalent to a 180mp sensor!)
- pixel shift high res stills
- 9+ megadot EFV with no blackout and fast refresh rates (at least 120fps). >0.5" in size
- full sized HDMI 2.1 port (48G) or thunderbolt 3 USB-C or both
- Mini XLR audio option
- Ethernet port
- Flippy screen included. This one I am not sure on but still needed I think. Weather sealing will need to be excellent though

USD10k

Won't directly compete with cinema line due to form factor but there will be a similar specced cinema form factor with unlimited 8k raw option, heaps of buttons and vented/fan cooled. Cxxx option will be more expensive.


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## John Wilde (Jan 18, 2021)

In 20*15*, there was a [CR1] rumor that a 1D X would have a global shutter. One of these years, a global shutter rumor will come true.


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## jam05 (Jan 18, 2021)

Nigel95 said:


> @dolina Your overly confident predictions don't held up well if this rumor is right. About the R1 not launching before 2024.
> 
> 
> I repeat my previous post.
> ...


I had been told him that he was wrong. Canon has most always released it's 1DX prior to every Summer Olympics and even went as far delivering cameras to the venues.


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## dolina (Jan 18, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> I think that the anchor point to your position is the cost of amortising the R&D for the 1Dxiii over time. We don't have an accurate view of the 1DX sales but it is small. The summer olympics would have been a relative bump in sales though which hasn't happened yet.
> Although every camera body has unique R&D costs, the 1DXiii body is recycled from previous models with the exception of the AF smart controller which is a standalone feature. A lot of the SW is based on the same Digic processing as the R5/R6. The downstream tech (processing, memory, bus and cards) is also used in the R5/R6. The 1DXiii sensor has volume based on R6 sales.
> Unique R&D costs were the new mechanical shutter and the viewfinder AF system.
> Canon needed to release a new 1DX to compete (and beat) Nikon as a halo model. Manufacturers don't always make much money with halo models but they are needed to showcase what is possible as a company as tech slowly flows to lower models.
> I fully expect the R1 to have features far in excess of the 1DXiii and charge an appropriately higher cost to segment their top models.


Another point is the lack of RF L lenses that is normally paired with a 1-Series body.

Canon disclosed years ago that 1-Series bodies make up 1% of all EOS bodies sold.

R1 body at more than $6,499 would be almost double the price of a Sony a9 II.


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## dolina (Jan 18, 2021)

peters said:


> At the moment, i dont think so. If I am not mistaken, the R5 is the only 8k camera from canon, isnt it? Even flagships like the C700 FF offer "only" 5,9k.
> Not that its an important feature at the moment. I would have absolutely prefered 4k RAW about 8k raw. 4k RAW is sadly not available on the R5. And 8k overheats in 10-15 minutes and is very difficult to edit (proxies is the way to go). It also offers no visible advantage over 4k HQ, if you watch it on a 4k screen (its identical). Unless you need to crop.


If I was getting married today I'd want it to be recorded in 8K. I'd even buy extra R5 bodies for the production team so they can easily swap out bodies when it needs to cool down.

Why the need for 8K? By your 10th anniversary 8K displays would cost as much as a 65" 4K OLED TVs are today. By your silver anniversary 8K displays would sell for $300.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Jan 18, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Repeating my previous guess for R1 specs. Combination of R5/1DXiii current capabilities and global shutter/quad pixel AF.
> .....
> My guess for R1 is minimum specs as R5 but in 1D body ( AF-On smart controller buttons, dual CFe slots) with:
> - Global shutter (no mechanical shutter). Rolling shutter artifacts significantly better than current electronic shutter
> ...



Thinking of it from pro sports and pro wildlife shooters, some things here don't add up. Now wildlife shooters want 45 MP, sports shooters don't and we have the 1DIV to 1DxIII and even the D3 to D6 all coming in very similar MP with supposed backlash if they go higher. Oversampled might be a thing, but that sounds like extra on camera processing that wouldn't be trusted.

Video features and tilt/flip screens, that isn't something I see mattering to someone with it attached to a 400mm f/2.8 on a tripod at the edge of a football match.

I expect more we'll see big improvements like 2.5 Gbps ethernet, which would benefit these shooters on top of the global shutter and Dual Digic X 2 processors. Quad pixel AF makes sense as mirrorless struggle focusing on vertical lines. 20-30 FPS is a done deal. Removing the mechanical shutter, that is iffy but if they have a true global shutter then a mechanical shutter is superfluous.

USB 4 (which has TB3) would be my guess on connector, but unsure why we need HDMI 2.1. If they do put in TB3 then that can spit out the video to a TB3 to HDMI cable.

Overall, I think the specs you guess are possible, just not logical for the target market. Maybe if there was a stadium and field version of the R1?


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## unfocused (Jan 18, 2021)

A few thoughts on this. Not criticizing, just thinking while typing...



David - Sydney said:


> I think that the anchor point to your position is the cost of amortising the R&D for the 1Dxiii over time. We don't have an accurate view of the 1DX sales but it is small. The summer olympics would have been a relative bump in sales though which hasn't happened yet.



I think we overestimate the impact of Olympics. Photographers at the Olympics represent a tiny fraction of a fraction of the professional sports photographer universe, which in itself is very small. Most sports photographers today are more likely to be like me -- employed by an institution, such as a college or university -- or trying to eke out a living through freelance contracts or hanging on as one of the few remaining local newspaper photographers out there or selling pictures to particpants and their families at local sporting events. There remain a few top level sports photographers, people like Scott Kelby and Peter Read Miller for example, but even these guys are contract workers. Point being that even if Canon sold two bodies to every single photographer covering the Olympics, it wouldn't be enough to sustain the line.

Sales these day are at least as likley, and probably more so, to be coming from amateurs who have sufficient disposible income and the desire to own the top of the line camera. As I said in a previous post, the olympics is important not because it puts cameras in the hands of pros but because it represents a marketing opportunity to sell cameras to enthusiasts who have the money to afford the top of the line. 

Not disagreeing with your point, just adding that I doubt Olympics-related sales even enters into Canon's calculations one way or another. I've said before that I can't see any real Olympic photographers taking the risk of shooting events with a new and untried body, especially given that COVID-19 means they will have had limited events to become familiar with the camera before the Olympics. 

On the other hand, the promotional aspect of the Olympics does enter into the equation and I can see Canon finagling press access for a bunch of photographers to take pictures using an R1 so they can promote it in their marketing campaign.



David - Sydney said:


> Although every camera body has unique R&D costs, the 1DXiii body is recycled from previous models with the exception of the AF smart controller which is a standalone feature.



Stand alone for now. Rumors of the death of the DSLR might be greatly exagerated. If Canon continues offering DSLRs in any form, the smart controller is likely to become a standard feature. (It is, by the way, a great feature and negates one of the big advantages of mirrorless in my personal opinion.)



David - Sydney said:


> A lot of the SW is based on the same Digic processing as the R5/R6. The downstream tech (processing, memory, bus and cards) is also used in the R5/R6. The 1DXiii sensor has volume based on R6 sales.



Plus, we don't know how much new development costs were actually invested in the sensor, which was an incremental improvement over the existing 1Dx II sensor. And, we don't know, but can assume, that development costs for sensors transfer across the varying resolutions.



David - Sydney said:


> Canon needed to release a new 1DX to compete (and beat) Nikon as a halo model. Manufacturers don't always make much money with halo models but they are needed to showcase what is possible as a company as tech slowly flows to lower models.



Exactly.


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## unfocused (Jan 18, 2021)

dolina said:


> If I was getting married today I'd want it to be recorded in 8K. I'd even buy extra R5 bodies for the production team so they can easily swap out bodies when it needs to cool down.
> 
> Why the need for 8K? By your 10th anniversary 8K displays would cost as much as a 65" 4K OLED TVs are today. By your silver anniversary 8K displays would sell for $300.



But, you would still be watching that video on a smart phone display, where no one can tell it was shot in 8K. Plus, in 25 years you will be divorced and the last thing your new wife would want to look at would be your wedding video with wife #1.


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## David - Sydney (Jan 18, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> Thinking of it from pro sports and pro wildlife shooters, some things here don't add up. Now wildlife shooters want 45 MP, sports shooters don't and we have the 1DIV to 1DxIII and even the D3 to D6 all coming in very similar MP with supposed backlash if they go higher. Oversampled might be a thing, but that sounds like extra on camera processing that wouldn't be trusted.
> 
> Video features and tilt/flip screens, that isn't something I see mattering to someone with it attached to a 400mm f/2.8 on a tripod at the edge of a football match.
> 
> ...


Not sure about "trusted". Dual processors is standard for 1DX models in the past. My understanding is that (and correct me if I am wrong) most pro sports are sending jpg and not raw so the oversampling could be compared to the jpg engine.
I agree that a flippy screen wouldn't balance a 400mm/2.8 but the 1DX have always had leading video and a flippy screen is important for video. You can always fold it in if you don't use it as I do with the R5 for indoor events. Video will become more and more important over time.
Wildlife shooting is not always standing up so using a flippy screen for more comfortable waiting positions would be an advantage. The weather sealing for the 1DX combined with great video specs would be great for wildlife videography without using a dedicated video format.
Expeed is for Nikon vs Digic for Canon?
Connectivity is an issue for the R5. HDMI 2.0 is included but can't handle 8k/30, 4k/120 bandwidths. HDMI 2.1 is newer and hard to get certified cables for instance but does handle the bandwidth. New firmware promised by Canon for the R5 will have reduced (compressed) cinema raw which would hopefully allow external recording with greater record times without the CFe card heat. Whether HDMI2.1 or USD4 or UBS-C or 10G ethernet will be the question but connectivity will need to be greater than current connectors.
I don't see a split of models as the volume isn't there. It will have features that some won't use but they are all in the spare parts bin at the moment to be assembled


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## David - Sydney (Jan 18, 2021)

unfocused said:


> On the other hand, the promotional aspect of the Olympics does enter into the equation and I can see Canon finagling press access for a bunch of photographers to take pictures using an R1 so they can promote it in their marketing campaign.
> 
> Stand alone for now. Rumors of the death of the DSLR might be greatly exagerated. If Canon continues offering DSLRs in any form, the smart controller is likely to become a standard feature. (It is, by the way, a great feature and negates one of the big advantages of mirrorless in my personal opinion.)


With the demise of camera shows/exhibitions, something like the olympics would be best marketing opportunity for Canon. Pros would need time to get used to a new model but the 1DXiii is incremental so ergonomics would have been simple to adapt to.
The R1 is likely to be in the same form factor as the 1DX. Battery life, portrait duplication, weather sealing, size to distribute heat all make sense and smaller doesn't help balance bg lenses. 
My use of "standalone" was more in the sense that it is a feature that was added without significant changes to the body.
The R5 has the joystick and the rear screen to move the AF point. In portrait orientation, the screen is hard to use and not ideal for people wearing gloves. The dual AF smart controllers make perfect sense for mirrorless as well as DLSR for this.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 18, 2021)

I don’t believe it is the sales Canon and Nikon chased at the Olympics, it was the prestige and headlines. Heck Canon were a major sponsor for many games and brought out special models specifically commemorating the Games As well as developing highly capable specialized models with very specific shots in mind. For generations the impetus of that four year cycle pushed the R&D teams, it gave them a focal point they could aim for and try to beat the other with higher fps, etc etc.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Jan 18, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Expeed is for Nikon vs Digic for Canon?



Updated my post.


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## dolina (Jan 18, 2021)

unfocused said:


> But, you would still be watching that video on a smart phone display, where no one can tell it was shot in 8K. Plus, in 25 years you will be divorced and the last thing your new wife would want to look at would be your wedding video with wife #1.


Divorce is illegal where I live.  May not even occur a quarter century from now because of how backward people here are.

I watch YouTube and other videos on my 65". By 2026 I'm scheduling to get 8K microLED display.


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## David - Sydney (Jan 18, 2021)

unfocused said:


> But, you would still be watching that video on a smart phone display, where no one can tell it was shot in 8K. Plus, in 25 years you will be divorced and the last thing your new wife would want to look at would be your wedding video with wife #1.


Ouch! As someone who recently celebrated our 30th wedding anniversary, I beg to differ!
Our wedding was videoed at 480i (I think) and the quality is really poor but we still have it.
I recorded our daughter's wedding 4 years ago on my iphone on a tripod with a mic (separate to the professional video/stills) in 4k. Very big file but the quality is great and the phone didn't overheat after 90 minutes.
To forecast how we will watch a video taken today in 25 years' time is a bit ambitious. Humans are really bad at comprehending exponential growth. Perhaps AI will clean it all up and bring it to standard future quality irrespective of how it was recorded.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Jan 18, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Not sure about "trusted". Dual processors is standard for 1DX models in the past. My understanding is that (and correct me if I am wrong) most pro sports are sending jpg and not raw so the oversampling could be compared to the jpg engine.
> I agree that a flippy screen wouldn't balance a 400mm/2.8 but the 1DX have always had leading video and a flippy screen is important for video. You can always fold it in if you don't use it as I do with the R5 for indoor events. Video will become more and more important over time.
> Wildlife shooting is not always standing up so using a flippy screen for more comfortable waiting positions would be an advantage. The weather sealing for the 1DX combined with great video specs would be great for wildlife videography without using a dedicated video format.
> Expeed is for Nikon vs Digic for Canon?
> ...



Regarding trust or trusted solutions: The environment is almost akin to distrusting anything new. Specifically in a stadium and the users seem to want to get a RAW image or perhaps even a JPEG as you suggest right over to the editors. Though when tethered, there isn't a need for a memory card, the images are being spat right at a editor and 2.5 Gbps ethernet would be a logical improvement here (5 and particularly 10 Gbps require new cable runs, expensive switches, and lots of cooling.).

I am still not convinced about the screen, I think the shooters will life on the EVF and for video you can use a R5 or a proper video camera that Canon will be delighted to sell you.

I did indeed mix up Expeed and Digic. Dual Digic X/11 make sense here, not so much for heat as it is for increased processing. Unless they can put out a multicore chip which is easier to shove on a board. 

Replacing the HDMI 2.0 and USB-C port with a TB3 connector would give you HDMI 2.1 just with an adaptor or a TB3 to HDMI cable. A worth while tradeoff if the TB3 chip doesn't want to melt the camera.


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## analoggrotto (Jan 18, 2021)

Perhaps they have determined a repeatable method to use all pixels to form the final image instead of half of the dual or forth of the quad pixel's sensor? 

For example, the 5D4 is 60 ish MP for dual pixel but produces 30 MP images - with, say, double the processing and onboard memory; could this become a native 60MP sensor?


----------



## David - Sydney (Jan 18, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> Regarding trust or trusted solutions: The environment is almost akin to distrusting anything new. Specifically in a stadium and the users seem to want to get a RAW image or perhaps even a JPEG as you suggest right over to the editors. Though when tethered, there isn't a need for a memory card, the images are being spat right at a editor and 2.5 Gbps ethernet would be a logical improvement here (5 and particularly 10 Gbps require new cable runs, expensive switches, and lots of cooling.).
> 
> Dual Digic X/11 make sense here, not so much for heat as it is for increased processing. Unless they can put out a multicore chip which is easier to shove on a board.
> 
> Replacing the HDMI 2.0 and USB-C port with a TB3 connector would give you HDMI 2.1 just with an adaptor or a TB3 to HDMI cable. A worth while tradeoff if the TB3 chip doesn't want to melt the camera.


Another connectivity option is 5G wireless. The speed is sufficient but coverage is the issue for the moment. 4 years time will be a very different story though.
We have seen that thermal solutions for a single processor in the R5 is problematic. Heat pipes could improve it but dual processors will distribute the heat more evenly to the body especially if each doesn't need to run at current R5 temperatures. Bigger body also mean low temperature burns are easier to manage.


----------



## Pixel (Jan 19, 2021)

It won't be called "R1"
Name one other pro flagship camera not called EOS-1(something)...not to mention over three decades of precedent.


----------



## navastronia (Jan 19, 2021)

dolina said:


> If I was getting married today I'd want it to be recorded in 8K. I'd even buy extra R5 bodies for the production team so they can easily swap out bodies when it needs to cool down.
> 
> Why the need for 8K? By your 10th anniversary 8K displays would cost as much as a 65" 4K OLED TVs are today. By your silver anniversary 8K displays would sell for $300.



I'm not sure I'd hold up to 8K capture at my own wedding unless I were wearing makeup


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 19, 2021)

dolina said:


> Divorce is illegal where I live.  May not even occur a quarter century from now because of how backward people here are.
> 
> I watch YouTube and other videos on my 65". By 2026 I'm scheduling to get 8K microLED display.


Sorry to hear about divorce being illegal. I guess there are a lot of things you might wish were different, too.
I'm glad you can contribute to the talk here.


----------



## David - Sydney (Jan 19, 2021)

Pixel said:


> It won't be called "R1"
> Name one other pro flagship camera not called EOS-1(something)...not to mention over three decades of precedent.


You are right about the EOS prefix which all Canon bodies have had but mirrorless have had a letter prefix ie M and R series. The EOS-R1 is the likely name to differentiate it from the 1DX series DLSR
Not to mention the Rebel/Kiis naming variants in different regions. 
Full list at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS


----------



## David - Sydney (Jan 19, 2021)

dolina said:


> Divorce is illegal where I live.  May not even occur a quarter century from now because of how backward people here are.
> 
> I watch YouTube and other videos on my 65". By 2026 I'm scheduling to get 8K microLED display.


Are you from Malaysia? I believe that muslim men there can have up to 4 wives with sharia court permission.


----------



## dolina (Jan 19, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Are you from Malaysia? I believe that muslim men there can have up to 4 wives with sharia court permission.


im north east and it’s legal there


----------



## definedphotography (Jan 19, 2021)

peters said:


> The Panasonic GH5 (along many other Panas) got a fullsize HDMI Port and its a noteable smaller Camera.



Just a quick aside - the GH5 is pretty much the same size as the R5. Same height and thickness, just a slightly different shape.

That said, no excuse for Canon not putting a proper HDMI port on the R5. Especially given its price.


----------



## Pixel (Jan 19, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> You are right about the EOS prefix which all Canon bodies have had but mirrorless have had a letter prefix ie M and R series. The EOS-R1 is the likely name to differentiate it from the 1DX series DLSR
> Not to mention the Rebel/Kiis naming variants in different regions.
> Full list at:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS


But there also won't be anymore EOS-1Dx's and my guess is that their new flagship will carry on the EOS-1 moniker albeit with an "R" now.


----------



## AEWest (Jan 19, 2021)

unfocused said:


> A few thoughts on this. Not criticizing, just thinking while typing...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why such a focus on the Olympics? Certainly the FIFA World Cup is an equally large event for sports photography and it comes around in 2022, which may work better for the timing of the R1 release.


----------



## AEWest (Jan 19, 2021)

Pixel said:


> It won't be called "R1"
> Name one other pro flagship camera not called EOS-1(something)...not to mention over three decades of precedent.


I prefer the moniker "1R" to accentuate that the one series as being more important than RF mount.


----------



## Quackator (Jan 19, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Find me a fast big flash unit that doesn't cost $1,000's, cameras and
> flashes have grown up together and whilst very low power flashes can
> have exceptionally fast durations once you want any kind of power
> output the duration time goes way up.



I have a bunch of Hensel Expert D 250 SPEED which are able to 
fire 64 Ws at 16fps while at the same time maintaining very short 
flash durations. 64 ws is pretty much what a 600EX-RT fires at 
full power. Coupled with an inverter this is still very transportable.
The Hensel Power Max L inverter will give you more than 10,000 
pops at 64 ws with this baby and one single battery charge.
No overheating, of course.

Due to the ultrashort flash durations and extremely fast recycle times
this is good for fill flash 1 f-stop below bright sunlight at 1/4000 sec / f=2.8
across 60ft distance.

Tested successsfully up to 1/2000 sec with the leaf shutter of a G5X.
Just needed to wait for a reasonable fast camera with global shutter.

The flash is there, proven to work as intended and already in my bag.
Now bring on the camera.


----------



## Quackator (Jan 19, 2021)

Robert Marxreiter said:


> My thoughts exactly. Can't wait to use on camera fill flash on a sunny day for group portraits at 800mm.



Funny way of saying you have no imagination what this will enable good photographers to do.


----------



## raptor3x (Jan 19, 2021)

analoggrotto said:


> Perhaps they have determined a repeatable method to use all pixels to form the final image instead of half of the dual or forth of the quad pixel's sensor?
> 
> For example, the 5D4 is 60 ish MP for dual pixel but produces 30 MP images - with, say, double the processing and onboard memory; could this become a native 60MP sensor?



You already have that capability with DualPixel RAW, it's just nobody is processing it that way.


----------



## Quackator (Jan 19, 2021)

Daner said:


> None of which is worth a damn if the venue doesn't permit flash photography. Red-carpet reception lines might, but most sporting events and concerts do not.



Don't stop thinking at news gathering opportunities.
Commercials, staged sports shots.... there's more.


----------



## David - Sydney (Jan 19, 2021)

raptor3x said:


> You already have that capability with DualPixel RAW, it's just nobody is processing it that way.


I always wondered why DPRaw didn't have any real applications. Only DDP could extract the information if I recall correctly.
Has there been any usage of DPRaw in practical situations?


----------



## raptor3x (Jan 19, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> I always wondered why DPRaw didn't have any real applications. Only DDP could extract the information if I recall correctly.
> Has there been any usage of DPRaw in practical situations?



I know somebody wrote a utility that uses the DualPixel RAW to extend dynamic range by improving highlight headroom but I haven't heard anything other than that.


----------



## eosuser1234 (Jan 19, 2021)

If I am correct a global shutter also enables flash sync at any speed without having to switch to HSS mode which is great for when shooting action and provides much clearer sharper photos than HSS mode with its pulsing method. This would be great.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Jan 19, 2021)

Hector1970 said:


> The 5DIII and 5DIV in particular are excellent cameras. The 5DSR is great at ISO 100 and on a tripod. I would call them no excuse cameras. If you can't take a good photograph with them its not because they are a bad camera but that the photographer needs to improve.



LOL, the 5DsR could be easily used up to ISO 3200 the same as the 5D3 and still was superior for IQ when downsampled to 22MP. The AF of the 5DsR was also more reliable and I sold my 5D3 about a week after getting the 5DsR and used it a lot even for birding where it was regularly at ISO 400 - 1600. In fact I often used it more than my 1DX when FL the IQ was so vastly superior.


----------



## TAF (Jan 20, 2021)

padam said:


> BG-R10, problem solved, the R1 will be heavier than an R5 with a battery grip.



Thank you for the suggestion, but alas it doesn’t scratch the itch.

The grip only adds bulk to the bottom; it does not make the body wider.


----------



## unfocused (Jan 20, 2021)

padam said:


> BG-R10, problem solved, the R1 will be heavier than an R5 with a battery grip.



Probably not. The 5D series with a grip is actually heavier than the 1Dx.

1Dx IIII 3.17lb with battery; 2.75 lb w/o battery

5DIV 1.76 lb BG grip 1.165 lb, two batteries .25 lb each = 3.425 lb; 2.925 w/o batteries


----------



## padam (Jan 20, 2021)

TAF said:


> Thank you for the suggestion, but alas it doesn’t scratch the itch.
> 
> The grip only adds bulk to the bottom; it does not make the body wider.


Being longer means it fits in the palm of the left hand more comfortably.



unfocused said:


> Probably not. The 5D series with a grip is actually heavier than the 1Dx.
> 
> 1Dx IIII 3.17lb with battery; 2.75 lb w/o battery
> 
> 5DIV 1.76 lb BG grip 1.165 lb, two batteries .25 lb each = 3.425 lb; 2.925 w/o batteries


1DX III 1440g
5D IV 890+390+79=1359g

And the 1DX II was the correct model to compare it with since it is the same generation, which is heavier (1530g)


----------



## degos (Jan 20, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> The summer olympics would have been a relative bump in sales though which hasn't happened yet.



Not particularly. For example here is Getty's entire inventory for the last Summer Olympics:







40 1-series isn't going to make or break profit for Canon.

Again, the Olympics really aren't that big a deal in terms of pro camera use. For example think how many photos will be shot at the US Presidential Inauguration tomorrow. And that's just one event in one country on one day.


----------



## TravelerNick (Jan 20, 2021)

It's reasonable to expect both Canon and Nikon to sell both a DSLR and a ML top of the line for awhile. You aren't going to convince too many people to switch over overnight. Especially while the lens line up fills out.

They don't have to use HDMI. SDI 12 could be used instead. 

The advantage of HDMI is you can plug it into any consumer equipment around the house but I'm guessing the average TV station would be better served by SDI.


----------



## bbasiaga (Jan 20, 2021)

Price on a 1 series R with QPAF, etc? My guess $8k. 

-Brian


----------



## cayenne (Jan 20, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Why such a focus on the Olympics? Certainly the FIFA World Cup is an equally large event for sports photography and it comes around in 2022, which may work better for the timing of the R1 release.



That's like a soccer game, right?


----------



## SteveC (Jan 20, 2021)

cayenne said:


> That's like a soccer game, right?



Isn't the grand prize for hokey a cup?


----------



## unfocused (Jan 20, 2021)

SteveC said:


> Isn't the grand prize for hokey a cup?


Is that the sport where you put your right foot in and shake it all about?


----------



## David - Sydney (Jan 20, 2021)

TravelerNick said:


> It's reasonable to expect both Canon and Nikon to sell both a DSLR and a ML top of the line for awhile. You aren't going to convince too many people to switch over overnight. Especially while the lens line up fills out.
> 
> They don't have to use HDMI. SDI 12 could be used instead.
> 
> The advantage of HDMI is you can plug it into any consumer equipment around the house but I'm guessing the average TV station would be better served by SDI.


I would imagine that Canon will keep SDI for their cinema cameras as a differentiator. Although SDI connector locks well, it also takes up a lot of real estate on the body. A full sized HDMI would better suit the form factor IMHO


----------



## Danglin52 (Jan 20, 2021)

dolina said:


> Reason why I do not believe why a 1-Series MILC will come out in 2021 as of this writing
> 
> Canon Inc is a for profit company that will produce products in line with customers needs/wants so long as it is profitable
> Customers of the 1-Series like bulk buying photo news agencies surveyed between 2017-2020 wanted an SLR and not a MILC
> ...


Several things to consider: 

Canon released very aggressive cameras with the R5/R6
The R5 provides a great look at Canon capabilities with mirrorless
The R5/R6 has given Canon the ability to test new technologies and determine where they need to fine tune their R1 approach. 
The R1 has probably been in development as long / longer than the R5, with quad pixel sensor work beginning even earlier (including software development) 
Most of the capabilities in an R1 would be building on the capabilities of the R5, making the R1 "better", more "capable", and "reliable". 
Many of the "issues" could be solved with different components - new VF for faster readout/display, more memory for faster transfers, dual CFexpress cards, etc, etc. 
Basically, more refinement and doing everything better than the R5 (look at 1dx II/5dIV relationship). I am sure Canon released the 1dx III because development was not complete on the R1 and they were not going to release a substandard product. Canon has jumped into the mirrorless market with both feet and I am sure they do not want to loose there coveted professional market. If Nikon and Sony are on track to release pro cameras this year, Canon will not be far behind. 

Time will tell...


----------



## slclick (Jan 20, 2021)

unfocused said:


> Is that the sport where you put your right foot in and shake it all about?


Yep, that's what it's all about.


----------



## dolina (Jan 20, 2021)

Danglin52 said:


> Several things to consider:
> 
> Canon released very aggressive cameras with the R5/R6
> The R5 provides a great look at Canon capabilities with mirrorless
> ...


Those are not several things but 6. 

R1 was not released as the surveyed bulk buyers and other 1-Series customers from 2017-2019 prefer SLRs.

That may have changed within the last 52 weeks but the question I'd pose is is Canon willing to take the financial lose of Osborning the 1D X Mark III and Series III EF 600/4 & EF 400/2.8?

Now, if Canon released a RF 600/4 & RF 400/2.8 in 2018 instead and R1 in 2020 instead then that would have been better.

I have no doubt that the MILC tech for the R1 has been there for more than 2 years already but what is needed to support a 1-Series body is the appropriate lens and accessories for it. Thus far only the three L f/2.8 zooms are there. No white long fast primes.

Nikon themselves admitted that their transition to MILC was slow. By my estimate by 2 years. Canon was late by 1.

Sony timed it perfectly. Their FE 400/2.8 came out in 2018, FE 600/4 and a9 II came out in 2019.


----------



## Sporgon (Jan 20, 2021)

Mr Majestyk said:


> LOL, the 5DsR could be easily used up to ISO 3200 the same as the 5D3 and still was superior for IQ when downsampled to 22MP. The AF of the 5DsR was also more reliable and I sold my 5D3 about a week after getting the 5DsR and used it a lot even for birding where it was regularly at ISO 400 - 1600. In fact I often used it more than my 1DX when FL the IQ was so vastly superior.


What's all this "was" and past tense stuff ? It still is !


----------



## Bert63 (Jan 20, 2021)

bbasiaga said:


> Price on a 1 series R with QPAF, etc? My guess $8k.
> 
> -Brian



Probably. Worth it to someone I’m sure.


----------



## analoggrotto (Jan 20, 2021)

raptor3x said:


> You already have that capability with DualPixel RAW, it's just nobody is processing it that way.


Yes but I'm talking about native, real time handling. That way the sensor could be rated to the true amount of pixels not half as all dual pixel sensors are now.


----------



## Danglin52 (Jan 20, 2021)

dolina said:


> Those are not several things but 6.
> 
> R1 was not released as the surveyed bulk buyers and other 1-Series customers from 2017-2019 prefer SLRs.
> 
> ...


The R1 is not really a follow on for the 1dx III, it is a transition platform to new technology direction. Canon released the R5/R6 to establish the beachhead and prove the technology. Even if the bulk buyers are not clamoring for a mirrorless, any company with an eye to the future is already evaluating the mirrorless alternatives. If Nikon releases a flagship mirrorless and Sony updates the A9 III (at least they already have an offering) Canon can't afford to miss the early evaluation cycle. Canon seems to keep things pretty close, so they would not want a lot of evaluation units in the field. My guess is that most of the bulk orders for the EF 400 & 600 III have already been placed and release of an R1 won't have that much impact. I believe there was a rumor that some of the RF mount big whites would be out this year, so that should take care of your concerns about RF lenses. If not, expect a weather sealed RF - EF adaptor to allow a transition.

I don't think Canon will wait until 2024 to release an R1, although it may not start shipping until 2022 based on the factory delays.

I would love to have one for my Namibia trip this year!


----------



## dolina (Jan 21, 2021)

Danglin52 said:


> The R1 is not really a follow on for the 1dx III, it is a transition platform to new technology direction. Canon released the R5/R6 to establish the beachhead and prove the technology. Even if the bulk buyers are not clamoring for a mirrorless, any company with an eye to the future is already evaluating the mirrorless alternatives. If Nikon releases a flagship mirrorless and Sony updates the A9 III (at least they already have an offering) Canon can't afford to miss the early evaluation cycle. Canon seems to keep things pretty close, so they would not want a lot of evaluation units in the field. My guess is that most of the bulk orders for the EF 400 & 600 III have already been placed and release of an R1 won't have that much impact. I believe there was a rumor that some of the RF mount big whites would be out this year, so that should take care of your concerns about RF lenses. If not, expect a weather sealed RF - EF adaptor to allow a transition.
> 
> I don't think Canon will wait until 2024 to release an R1, although it may not start shipping until 2022 based on the factory delays.
> 
> I would love to have one for my Namibia trip this year!


That's why I have strong doubts about the R1.

R5/R6 are the direct replacement of the 5D4/6D2 as they're spaced out by 4 & 3 years respectively unlike the R1 that will be spaced out by 13-24 months?


----------



## TravelerNick (Jan 21, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> I would imagine that Canon will keep SDI for their cinema cameras as a differentiator. Although SDI connector locks well, it also takes up a lot of real estate on the body. A full sized HDMI would better suit the form factor IMHO



On a camera this size is the SDI size really going to be an issue?

The problem with HDMI on this type of camera is it's not really designed for field use. A camera with extreme weather sealing and all the other hard life features this sort of market demands might/will be better off with something other than HDMI.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

Maximilian said:


> My guess: 3 1/2 years until summer olympics Paris 2024 as Tokyo 2020/21 will be canceled because of COVID-19.
> 
> As for winter games I have hope for winter 2022 if the vaccines can be distributed fast enough...



BINGO!


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> With a quad pixel sensor, a 20 MP sensor is sending 80 MP worth of data to the processor, a 30 MP would be possible, but quad pixel is not a variant of a R5 sensor unless it has quad pixel already there. A global shutter requires memory for each pixel, so a layered sensor would be likely to do all of that. It would bump up the cost. The heat generated from all that is a issue as well, so 8K seems unlikely.



You are assuming one of several possible interpretations of quad pixel. 

What if "quad pixel" were to be actually much like dual pixel except that a significant number of the the dual pixels used for AF are vertically oriented instead of horizontal? In the same way "cross-type AF points" in DSLRs are actually a horizontal set and a vertical set of AF lines superimposed over one another? One set of vertical and one set of horizontal dual pixels would give the appearance of quad pixel AF capability. This is then greatly simplified if the raw files only record to composite values for each dual pixel group (the way most DP cameras record raw files) instead of recording the values of each subpixel the way the cameras capable of dual pixel raw can. Since the 1-series has been significantly lower resolution compared to the 5-series since the 1DX II/5D IV were introduced in 2016, I don't think it would be that big a deal to most potential buyers.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

dolina said:


> Reason why I do not believe why a 1-Series MILC will come out in 2021 as of this writing
> 
> Canon Inc is a for profit company that will produce products in line with customers needs/wants so long as it is profitable
> Customers of the 1-Series like bulk buying photo news agencies surveyed between 2017-2020 wanted an SLR and not a MILC
> ...


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

dolina said:


> My speculation is based on precedence. Your point of view has little substance.
> 
> Perhaps grounding your position on evidence or even some data may make your words be more compelling to be taken seriously.



Most precedence went completely out the window in 2020 with emergence of the SARS-CoV-2 virus and the economic fallout from that.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

Quackator said:


> How come everybody salivates at global shutter for video and nobody mentions the 800lb gorilla in the room: Flash?
> 
> Sync at all shutter speeds. Fill flash across 100ft distances with fast big flash units.....







Robert Marxreiter said:


> My thoughts exactly. Can't wait to use on camera fill flash on a sunny day for group portraits at 800mm.




There would still be the limitation of the length of time needed for a full power dump by the flash. The larger the flash, the longer a full power dump takes. So while sync would be much easier to manage, available power would still diminish with shorter Tv as the flash would become more like a continuous light that stays on for longer than the total exposure time.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> One does not downsample to RAW



Essentially that is what a standard raw file from any Canon camera with DPAF is. Each half of each dual-pixel is combined in the raw file. Only when one records the files as "DP Raw" files are the values saved separately.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

peters said:


> If its a sports camera I doubt it will have 8k (45mpixel). I bet its more like 30mpixel and 6k or something. Though I might be wrong. Since they managed to get 45mpixel with 20fps out of the R5, it may be very well possible for the R1...
> 
> Coming from the R5 I mostly hope for:
> - a full size HDMI port
> ...



The digital 1-series has no mode dial, all the way back to the original 1D in 2002.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

dolina said:


> Another point is the lack of RF L lenses that is normally paired with a 1-Series body.
> 
> Canon disclosed years ago that 1-Series bodies make up 1% of all EOS bodies sold.
> 
> R1 body at more than $6,499 would be almost double the price of a Sony a9 II.



They were selling Rebels hand over fist when they made that less than 1% statement, too. The lower end of the ILC is drying up fast. The 1-Series will need to be more than 1% of Canon's future market for the 1-Series to survive.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

unfocused said:


> But, you would still be watching that video on a smart phone display, where no one can tell it was shot in 8K. Plus, in 25 years you will be divorced and the last thing your new wife would want to look at would be your wedding video with wife #1.



If he always has to be right in real life the way he does here, he ain't ever getting married.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

Pixel said:


> It won't be called "R1"
> Name one other pro flagship camera not called EOS-1(something)...not to mention over three decades of precedent.



It will be the EOS R1. What's so hard to understand about that?

The EOS 5D Mark IV became the EOS R5
The EOS 6D Mark II became the EOS R6

That's before one must consider that the EOS EF mount numbering system was not the same as the FD mount model numbering system.

The EOS-1 was the EF mount equivalent of the New F1 (Yes, "new" was an official part of the model name) that was built like the T90. Take your pick. 

When Canon went from the FD mount to the EF mount they went from letter-number model names to number-(sometimes letter) model names. When they went from film to digital, they added the "D" after the numbers. When they went to the RF mount they placed the R before the numbers.

It's not that hard to understand. It really isn't.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Why such a focus on the Olympics? Certainly the FIFA World Cup is an equally large event for sports photography and it comes around in 2022, which may work better for the timing of the R1 release.



It's not a marquee event concentrated in one locale/region over only a 2-3 week period with multiple sports having events every morning, afternoon, and night. There are nowhere near the same number of total events, much less that number of events in only a 2-3 week period. 

The FIFA world cup, including the qualifying rounds, is spread over months at various locations around the world. The tournament involves 31 games spread over about a month for an average of one game per day. The Summer olympics has at least 30 events every single day for 2-3 weeks spread over every summer sport imaginable. It's not the same at all.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I prefer the moniker "1R" to accentuate that the one series as being more important than RF mount.



Just like the FD mount F1, right?


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

Quackator said:


> I have a bunch of Hensel Expert D 250 SPEED which are able to
> fire 64 Ws at 16fps while at the same time maintaining very short
> flash durations. 64 ws is pretty much what a 600EX-RT fires at
> full power. Coupled with an inverter this is still very transportable.
> ...



64 Ws? That's puny compared to the current battery powered flashes offered by ProFoto, Godox, and others. 500-600 Ws is the current standard. Even the Godox "pocket flash" AD200 series puts out 200 Ws.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

eosuser1234 said:


> If I am correct a global shutter also enables flash sync at any speed without having to switch to HSS mode which is great for when shooting action and provides much clearer sharper photos than HSS mode with its pulsing method. This would be great.



Only if the flash is fast enough to keep up. The more power a flash has, usually the longer the duration of the flash to do a full power pop.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

slclick said:


> Yep, that's what it's all about.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

dolina said:


> Those are not several things but 6.
> 
> R1 was not released as the surveyed bulk buyers and other 1-Series customers from 2017-2019 prefer SLRs.
> 
> ...



What if the EF 600mm f/4 L IS III and EF 400mm f/2.8 L IS III are really the RF 600mm f/4 L IS and RF 400mm f/2.8 L with EF housings on the back end?

Nothing past 200mm gains any advantage from the shorter registration distance of the RF mount. None of Canon's Super Telephoto EF lenses have rear elements that come close to the flange ring.

Sigma, Tamron, etc. do this kind of thing all of the time.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2021)

dolina said:


> That's why I have strong doubts about the R1.
> 
> R5/R6 are the direct replacement of the 5D4/6D2 as they're spaced out by 4 & 3 years respectively unlike the R1 that will be spaced out by 13-24 months?



Think of the 1D X Mark III more like the 1D X Mark IIn with a test-bed OVF AF system that is essentially an image sensor (and thus the lessons learned can be applied to a MILC 1-Series body), rather than a traditional dedicated PDAF style sensor? Does it make more sense now?

Consider the EOS R (mid-2018) and EOS RP (early-2019) that were transitional models between the 5D Mark IV (2016) and the R5 (2020) , and the 6D Mark II (2017) and the R6 (2020), respectively. Does it make more sense now?


----------



## dolina (Jan 21, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> Think of the 1D X Mark III more like the 1D X Mark IIn with a test-bed OVF AF system that is essentially an image sensor (and thus the lessons learned can be applied to a MILC 1-Series body), rather than a traditional dedicated PDAF style sensor? Does it make more sense now?
> 
> Consider the EOS R (mid-2018) and EOS RP (early-2019) that were transitional models between the 5D Mark IV (2016) and the R5 (2020) , and the 6D Mark II (2017) and the R6 (2020), respectively. Does it make more sense now?


You make no sense, now.


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## dolina (Jan 21, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> What if the EF 600mm f/4 L IS III and EF 400mm f/2.8 L IS III are really the RF 600mm f/4 L IS and RF 400mm f/2.8 L with EF housings on the back end?
> 
> Nothing past 200mm gains any advantage from the shorter registration distance of the RF mount. None of Canon's Super Telephoto EF lenses have rear elements that come close to the flange ring.
> 
> Sigma, Tamron, etc. do this kind of thing all of the time.


Lets see what the future will bring.


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## analoggrotto (Jan 21, 2021)

Given the form factor of the A9, I wonder if this new R1 (or Arrrgh!  ) will be offered with and without the second grip ? Could be encouraging, so much power a normal size. But I suspect the passive cooling systems will prevail and maintain some heft.


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## Sporgon (Jan 21, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> The digital 1-series has no mode dial, all the way back to the original 1D in 2002.


Indeed the original EOS film 1 series from (about) 1990 was the beginning of this design, and to be honest I do prefer the two handed approach to changing modes of the 1 series than I do the mode dial, because after all you still have to be holding the camera anyway. But as the digital 1 series don't suit me I only have the pleasure of using the 1n this way.


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## AEWest (Jan 21, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> Just like the FD mount F1, right?


Actually more like the 1D, where the importance of it being a 1 series camera superceded the revolutionary change of being a digital pro camera for the first time for Canon.

They could have called it the D1 but didn't.


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## peters (Jan 21, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> The digital 1-series has no mode dial, all the way back to the original 1D in 2002.


Jeah, and I must say, I realy dont like it. 

Mode dial:
- current mode can be seen any time, not only in the viewfinder or on the shoulder display. even when camera is off. I can pick the camera up and while grabbing it, I allready know which mode Its in
- It can be changed while the camera is off, with only one hand, and without looking. I get a haptic feedback and know right away, which mode I am in. 
- It can be watersealed just as on every other camera

Actual method on the R5 and 1D:
- I have to click one button and than dial another button
- I have to actualy look at a rather small icon to make sure I stop at the right mode
- cant see the mode easily when camera is off
- no haptic feedback about the current mode. 

I prefer the mode dial by A LOT.


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## PerKr (Jan 21, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Actually more like the 1D, where the importance of it being a 1 series camera superceded the revolutionary change of being a digital pro camera for the first time for Canon.
> 
> They could have called it the D1 but didn't.



They could have called it "D1" but that was a Nikon camera. Plus, it was really the digital version of the EOS-1 SLR. It wasn't about "the importance of the 1-series", whatever that means.


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## AEWest (Jan 21, 2021)

PerKr said:


> They could have called it "D1" but that was a Nikon camera. Plus, it was really the digital version of the EOS-1 SLR. It wasn't about "the importance of the 1-series", whatever that means.


Simply put, once Canon introduces more RF bodies there could be R5, R6, R7, RP, etc..
Having the name 1R better differentiates it as their top line pro camera, at least in my opinion.
In terms of D1, both Canon and Nikon previously had cameras named D60, Canon could always differentiate using the full name: EOS D60. They could have done so with the D1.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jan 21, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Simply put, once Canon introduces more RF bodies there could be R5, R6, R7, RP, etc..


I think Canon should keep the RP designation around to have more models between RP and R like having an RP6 as a model name



AEWest said:


> Having the name 1R better differentiates it as their top line pro camera, at least in my opinion.


We get it but that is not a very popular opinion.
R1 makes more sense to most of us.

.


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## jhpeterson (Jan 21, 2021)

peters said:


> Jeah, and I must say, I realy dont like it.
> 
> Mode dial:
> - current mode can be seen any time, not only in the viewfinder or on the shoulder display. even when camera is off. I can pick the camera up and while grabbing it, I allready know which mode Its in
> ...


I've never liked the mode dial. It's likely a dealbreker and a major reason why I use only 1D series cameras for nearly all my work. They seem a weak point in terms of letting water and other matter in, as well as prone to breaking. (Many years ago I had an A2 which lasted about three or fours weeks before it needed to be sent for repair.)

As for clicking one button and having to dial another on the other side of the camera, that seems no more difficult than holding one button down while simultaneously turning it or, worse, using the other hand to do so with the camera now off balance.

As I've been using the 1D series for more than 15 years, and before that the EOS 1 film models for nearly another 15, I find I perform this task almost automatically. It must be deeply ingrained into muscle memory.

I'm a big fan of haptic feedback and would much rather be depressing buttons than scrolling through menus. The latter is pretty much not going to happen when I'm in the middle of a shoot.

Let's hope Canon keeps the controls on their new flagship where they've been.


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## Quackator (Jan 21, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> There would still be the limitation of the length of time needed for a full power dump by the flash.
> The larger the flash, the longer a full power dump takes.



You missed my next answer. Big, fast flashes already do exist.
The Hensel Expert D 250 Speed delivers 64 Ws within
1/10,000 sec - enough for very fast shutter speeds.


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## Quackator (Jan 21, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> 64 Ws? That's puny compared to the current battery
> powered flashes offered by ProFoto, Godox, and others.
> 500-600 Ws is the current standard. Even the Godox
> "pocket flash" AD200 series puts out 200 Ws.



Yeah, in 1/220 sec at full power. The 250 speed dumps 
the 64Ws (~full power of a 600EX-RT) within only 1/10,000 sec.
That's 0.1 ms.

The AD200 need 4,55ms for it's 200 Ws.

It can't fit even nearly as much power in the same short timespan.
And certainly none of them can do so at 16fps.


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## slclick (Jan 21, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I think Canon should keep the RP designation around to have more models between RP and R like having an RP6 as a model name
> 
> 
> We get it but that is not a very popular opinion.
> ...


Canon has already stated that the R and RP were temps. The R5/6 nomenclature should continue so we don't run into an Olympus nightmare of naming schemes.The M series was bad enough, they know better now I believe.


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## a4jp.com (Jan 21, 2021)

Here are some other requests as well. It would be great if they also had LiDar or some depth measuring software built in, better dynamic range, accurate GPS built in with an accelerometer, no overheating issues so we can have unlimited recording times, and better webcam software for it (wireless if possible)... I'm not asking for much but I'm sure they could do all that. I'd love to be able to help add some or all of these these features. I'm an industrial designer.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jan 21, 2021)

slclick said:


> Canon has already stated that the R and RP were temps.


That is not what I mean.
I mean have an RP6 just like there is am M6 and an R6


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## cayenne (Jan 21, 2021)

a4jp.com said:


> Here are some other requests as well. It would be great if they also had LiDar or some depth measuring software built in, better dynamic range, accurate GPS built in with an accelerometer, no overheating issues so we can have unlimited recording times, and better webcam software for it (wireless if possible)... I'm not asking for much but I'm sure they could do all that. I'd love to be able to help add some or all of these these features. I'm an industrial designer.



I really like that idea of the Lidar in there....that would really be forward looking with computational photography coming into its own....and who knows what that could lead to in the future....could turn regular shots into VR or AR type shots, etc....?

If an iPhone can do it, I should think Canon could add that in there somewhere?

C


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## Busted Knuckles (Jan 21, 2021)

DrToast said:


> I'd be surprised if the camera had 8K. The 1D body has always prioritized FPS, and 8K resolution would limit that.


What is the difference of 8k w/ global shutter at 30 or 60 fps than 10:2:2 vs. a jpg?


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## slclick (Jan 21, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> That is not what I mean.
> I mean have an RP6 just like there is am M6 and an R6


Drilling down ....Not sure they do things that way, or should. Subsets of a camera body which has been superseded by other models?


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## Lucas Tingley (Jan 22, 2021)

wont a CCD suffer from blooming?


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## koenkooi (Jan 22, 2021)

a4jp.com said:


> Here are some other requests as well. It would be great if they also had LiDar or some depth measuring software built in,[..]



DPAF already gives you a depth map, Canon just doesn't give you nice tools to extract it and so far no 3rd parties support either.


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## Methodical (Jan 22, 2021)

If the camera with global shutter is $7-8k it won't matter to me because I refuse to give Canon that much money for a camera body.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jan 22, 2021)

Lucas Tingley said:


> wont a CCD suffer from blooming?


Global Shutter ≠ CCD


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## addola (Jan 22, 2021)

Quackator said:


> How come everybody salivates at global shutter for video and nobody mentions the 800lb gorilla in the room: Flash?
> 
> Sync at all shutter speeds. Fill flash across 100ft distances with fast big flash units.....



I wanted to scroll through all the pages to see when I see first mention of flash! Thank you for saving me the time. Quackator! I salivate over the idea of flash & fast shutter, but that would "technically" give third party manual flashes an HSS function for free. I hope the Canon-you-know-what-hammer doesn't touch that. It would be great for outdoor portraits as you mentioned, but also for macro photography of little moving insects.


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## Quackator (Jan 23, 2021)

addola said:


> I salivate over the idea of flash & fast shutter, but that would
> "technically" give third party manual flashes an HSS function
> for free. I hope the Canon-you-know-what-hammer doesn't
> touch that.



No danger there. Except for the mentioned Hensel Expert D 250 Speed,
which is a rather hefty studio type mono flash, 99% of the third party 
flashes can't dump their stored power within the necessary short time.

Only a few flashes will be able to make use of an extra two or three time 
steps due to global shutter. There is room for new flash units as well 
which can go all the way up. Flash duration is one of the hardest things 
to reduce without giving up power.

This is the flash that I would put to use, I have five of them:





Expert D 250 Speed - Compact Flashes - Flash - Products | HENSEL


<div> </div> <ul> <li>Max. 250Ws</li> <li>Ultra short flash durations from 1/4000 to 1/10.000 s</li> <li>Shortest flash duration 1/10.000 s from 90-32 Ws</li> <li>Extremely fast flash sequences from only 0.22 s to 0.045 s (4,5-22 flashes/second)




katalog.hensel.eu





And this is the mobile power source that I have for it:





Power Max L (230 V) - Mobile Power Source - Products | HENSEL


<p><strong>2x Schuko sockets 230 V / 50 Hz</strong></p> <ul> <li>Flash capacity: up to 880 flashes at 250 Ws, 440 flashes at 500 Ws, 220 flashes at 1000 Ws etc.</li> <li>Suited for max. 3 Integra Mini, Integra Plus, 2 Expert D or 1 Speed Max. Please as




katalog.hensel.eu





A 120V version is also available.

This gives me up to 16fps at 64 Ws with several thousand pops per charge.
Manual flash power, all manual mode, of course.

Yes, this narrows down the number of people with enough skills that
are needed to put this to good use. Or those who can fork over 4 grand 
for the setup.

I don't think Canon needs to protect their own flashes for this.


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