# Best creative mode (other than M) for E-TTL flash photography



## SumanV (Apr 9, 2020)

Hi,

I am a beginner in flash photography and I have recently bought an EOS RP. I have a flash (Godox TT 685C) and I am experimenting with it. I would like to know which creative modes (Av/Tv/P/Fv) is the best to use for flash photography with E-TTL? Will these be different say if one uses flash in different ways i.e. fill vs non-fill? Also, some years back when I was using flash in E-TTL with a EOS T2i/550D, I was getting darker results with flash in a particular mode (I don't remember which one it was). When I changed the mode then the images came out brighter. Is it that that mode prioritized for ambient light and then added flash?

I apologize if the question has been asked before. I will be grateful for help/advice.

Thanks and Regards
Suman


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## Valvebounce (Apr 9, 2020)

Hi Suman. 
I‘m no expert and I’m not familiar with the Fv setting, but I have used flash quite a lot. I mostly use M on flash and camera, gives total control. I believe that Av is the most limited, and Tv is basically the same as M with one part of the exposure triangle automated. 
The best thing I can recommend is that you read Strobist lighting 101. This is a link to the page with the download, you can just read it on line too, as well as Strobist 102 and 103!
There are loads of other resources online too, for which I’m sure you will recommendations. 

Cheers, Graham.


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## SumanV (Apr 10, 2020)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Suman.
> I‘m no expert and I’m not familiar with the Fv setting, but I have used flash quite a lot. I mostly use M on flash and camera, gives total control. I believe that Av is the most limited, and Tv is basically the same as M with one part of the exposure triangle automated.
> The best thing I can recommend is that you read Strobist lighting 101. This is a link to the page with the download, you can just read it on line too, as well as Strobist 102 and 103!
> There are loads of other resources online too, for which I’m sure you will recommendations.
> ...



Hi Graham,

Thank you very much for the reply and for the link to Strobist lighting. I have seen the site but have not followed it completely. M gives the most control but for people shooting events which other creative mode would they choose?

Thanks and regards
Suman


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## Valvebounce (Apr 10, 2020)

Hi Suman. 
ETTL is very versatile and will within reason expose a shot correctly, the real decision for Tv or Av comes down to what, where and why you are shooting a subject 
Shutter speed has little impact on the light from the flash that hits the sensor until you get in to high speed sync, above 1/200th or 1/250th depending on the camera due to the short duration of the light emitted from a flash.
Aperture size really affects the flash light hitting the sensor just the same as ambient light, however some bodies have settings to limit the shutter speed available when a flash is detected.
If you are wanting to shoot birds with flash, go manual, they react to the ETTL pre-flash and are either missing from the shot or in some bizarre non photogenic pose. Having said that there are some at the local hide that are so used to flash that they rarely even look up!

For example this is from my 7DII manual,
“To prevent a slow shutter speed, under [z1: Flash control], set [Flash sync. speed in Av mode] to [1/250-1/60 sec. auto] or [1/250 sec. (fixed)]”

This is to prevent the camera dropping down to shutter speeds below hand holdable speeds to expose the background correctly. Imagine trying to hand hold a camera for 30seconds for the background exposure!  

Cheers, Graham.


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## SumanV (Apr 10, 2020)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Suman.
> ETTL is very versatile and will within reason expose a shot correctly, the real decision for Tv or Av comes down to what, where and why you are shooting a subject
> Shutter speed has little impact on the light from the flash that hits the sensor until you get in to high speed sync, above 1/200th or 1/250th depending on the camera due to the short duration of the light emitted from a flash.
> Aperture size really affects the flash light hitting the sensor just the same as ambient light, however some bodies have settings to limit the shutter speed available when a flash is detected.
> ...



Hi Graham,

Thanks again for the reply and a great tip regarding shooting birds with flash! I now understand that shutter speed doesn't affect the exposure from flash; it affects ambient light. I learnt about it before but … I forgot. I wondered how events (weddings etc.) are shot using flash as one doesn't have enough time to calculate exposure via M mode? This was the primary reason for my question. Would one still use M mode even in a fast paced situation? Also, can one calculate camera settings such that all elements of the photo (ambient light, colour) are satisfactory without trial and error i.e. without shooting trial photos?

Best regards
Suman


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## Valvebounce (Apr 10, 2020)

Hi Suman.
Having only done the odd friends and family wedding (to use your example) I am not really the best one to answer that, but I think most pro photographers probably shoot manual and have learned to react quickly to changing light, they do it all the time so probably can visualise required changes and muscle memory combined with the viewfinder meter enables them to dial in changes quickly, plus ETTL will adjust accordingly.
I'm guessing that it is normal for a wedding photographer to use ETTL as I have watched a few at weddings and not noticed them making changes to flashes, with the possible exception of perhaps dialing in a bit of + or - value on the flash power which can be done via the top buttons and wheels whilst looking through the viewfinder on many (all?) cameras.

Cheers, Graham.


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## old-pr-pix (Apr 10, 2020)

TBH, shooting indoor events I frequently use P or Tv mode. P mode is easy and I'm lazy. Tv lets me tweak how much background exposure I allow mostly relying on past experience to know what shutter speed to use. M is best when you have time to fine tune things but can be problematic otherwise - leave M for staged shots. Per Graham's comment, if you plan to use Av make sure you set the shutter speed range - I use the 1/250 - 1/60 setting. Otherwise you can get surprised by the camera exposing for the background and blowing out the foreground that is lit by the flash. Plus, multi-second hand held exposures just equal blurry pix unless you have excellent IBIS. (I can usually go down to 5 sec. + with my Olympus gear - I look forward to Canon providing similar capability.)


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## snegri45 (Apr 10, 2020)

Events.
Situation 1: Steady ambient light. Take a test shot, P, ISO Auto. Then switch to Manual, use results from test shot, adjust as needed, go for -1 ambient exposure, let the flash do its own thing at E-TTL II.

Situation 2: Ambient all over the place. Go with P, ISO Auto, E-TTL II. You may still want ambient at -1.

Obviously 1 is preferable, it typically yields great exposures that need little post production work. Case 2 gets iffier, but you will typically get workable images most of the time. More PP, though.


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## SumanV (Apr 10, 2020)

@Valvebounce Thanks again Graham. I understand that experienced photographers use Manual mode with flash due to their experience.

@old-pr-pix Thank you for the reply and the suggestion to limit shutter speed when using Av mode. A year back, I think I used Av+Flash for my T2i and the image that came out looked as if flash didn't even fire. I read some explanation somewhere for this but I don't remember now. 

@snegri45 Thank you for the tips and great photos by the way. When I used flash recently my exposures came out okay but the color was overwhelmed from flash. How do I preserve the ambient light color in the flash shot and achieve good exposure?


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## privatebydesign (Apr 10, 2020)

E-TTL is proprietary and 'intelligent' it depends on what it thinks is going on in the way it reacts, it also tries to work out what it believes is the subject and will try to optimally expose only that.

So what does that mean? Well nobody knows exactly how E-TTL works (we know the order in which things happen, we don't know the actual calculations that are going on in the background or the algorithm it is following) or at what light levels it decides to become a fill flash, yes it will automatically ramp the power up and down depending on the scene EV.

Canon E-TTL flash metering is very clever because it actually works out two independent exposures, the ambient exposure that it will adjust shutter speed to expose, and subject exposure that it will adjust flash power to expose for. That means to unleash the true potential of E-TTL you cannot use Tv, you must use another mode, the best for control is Av, using Tv severely limits the ability of the system to work as intended. Obviously M mode gives the user most control but I generally use Av and keep an eye on shutter speed to make sure it isn't becoming too slow for the intended use.


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## SumanV (Apr 10, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> E-TTL is proprietary and 'intelligent' it depends on what it thinks is going on in the way it reacts, it also tries to work out what it believes is the subject and will try to optimally expose only that.
> 
> So what does that mean? Well nobody knows exactly how E-TTL works (we know the order in which things happen, we don't know the actual calculations that are going on in the background or the algorithm it is following) or at what light levels it decides to become a fill flash, yes it will automatically ramp the power up and down depending on the scene EV.
> 
> Canon E-TTL flash metering is very clever because it actually works out two independent exposures, the ambient exposure that it will adjust shutter speed to expose, and subject exposure that it will adjust flash power to expose for. That means to unleash the true potential of E-TTL you cannot use Tv, you must use another mode, the best for control is Av, using Tv severely limits the ability of the system to work as intended. Obviously M mode gives the user most control but I generally use Av and keep an eye on shutter speed to make sure it isn't becoming too slow for the intended use.



Thank you very much for the explanation @privatebydesign. I am starting to understand the effects of various modes using flash.

Best regards
Suman


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## privatebydesign (Apr 10, 2020)

SumanV said:


> Thank you very much for the explanation @privatebydesign. I am starting to understand the effects of various modes using flash.
> 
> Best regards
> Suman


NK Guy was the person who documented the way E-TTL II works best but that was way back in 2001-2006. the site can still be retrieved via webarchive http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html but below I have copied and pasted the most pertinent part. There are a lot more flash models now and a lot of his articles are not very relevant anymore as they include the older E-TTL and the even earlier A-TTL.

Hope this helps.

*EOS flash photography confusion.*



> The main area of confusion in EOS flash photography is the fact that P, Tv, Av and M modes handle flash illumination differently, especially when ambient light levels are not bright. Here’s a summary of how the modes basically work when you have a flash unit turned on. This summary assumes that you do _not_ have FP mode flash enabled if that option is available to your particular camera and flash unit combination.
> 
> 
> *Mode**Shutter speed**Lens aperture**P*Automatically set from 1/60 sec to the camera’s maximum X-sync speed. Automatically set according to the camera’s built-in program.*Tv*You can set any shutter speed between 30 seconds and the camera’s maximum X-sync speed. Automatically set to match the shutter speed you have set.*Av*Automatically set between 30 seconds and the camera’s maximum X-sync speed to match the lens aperture you have set.You can set any lens aperture you like.*M*You can set any shutter speed between 30 seconds and the camera’s maximum X-sync speed. You can set any lens aperture you like.
> And here are the details:


*Program (P) mode flash.*



> The overriding principle of Program (P) mode in flash photography is that the camera tries to set a high shutter speed so that you can hold your camera by hand and not rely on a tripod. _If that means the background is dark, so be it._
> Program mode operates in one of two modes, depending on the ambient (existing) light levels.
> 1) If ambient light levels are fairly bright (above 13 EV) then P mode assumes you want to fill-flash your foreground subject. It meters for ambient light and uses flash, usually at a low-power setting, to fill in the foreground.
> 2) If ambient light levels are not bright (below 10 EV) then P mode assumes that you want to illuminate the foreground subject with the flash. It sets a shutter speed between 1/60 sec and the fastest X-sync speed (see above) your camera can attain. The aperture is determined by the camera’s built-in program.
> ...


*Tv (shutter priority) mode flash.*



> In this mode the camera lets you change the shutter speed. It then automatically chooses an aperture setting to expose the _background_ correctly. Flash duration (flash output) is determined by the flash metering system. In other words, the camera always works in fill flash mode when it’s in Tv mode - it always tries to expose the background adequately, unlike P mode.
> If the maximum aperture value of your lens starts flashing in the viewfinder it means the _background_ of the scene you’re shooting is too dimly lit. If you want to try and expose the background then you should decrease the shutter speed to compensate. Otherwise the camera will just try and expose the foreground with flash and the background will come out dark. Naturally at slower shutter speeds you’ll need to use a tripod to avoid blurring caused by camera shake.
> As always, the camera will prevent you from exceeding its built in X-sync speed unless FP mode is available to you and engaged. If the minimum aperture value of your lens starts flashing then your scene is too brightly lit. You must then either engage FP mode if it’s available or perhaps put a neutral density filter on the camera or use slower film. Or turn off flash altogether and simply use a reflector of some type to bounce ambient light onto the subject.


*Av (aperture priority) mode flash.*



> Av mode lets you set the depth of field by specifying the lens aperture. The camera then chooses a shutter speed ranging from 30 seconds to the camera’s X-sync speed, in order to expose the _background_ correctly. _If that means the shutter speed is some really low value so that you need to use a tripod to avoid camera-shake blur, so be it._ In dark conditions, therefore, Av mode works in slow sync mode.
> Flash duration (flash output) is determined by the flash metering system. Like Tv mode the camera always works in fill flash mode when in Av mode.
> There is one exception to this. A number of EOS cameras have a custom function you can set to ensure that the shutter speed in Av mode when using flash is locked to the X-sync speed. The EOS 10/10s and Elan II/EOS 50, for example, have such a custom function, which lets your camera behave more like P mode when in Av mode. However this custom function will only lock the camera to X-sync in Av mode and will not choose a shutter speed from 1/60 sec to X-sync, the way P mode does.
> As always, the camera will prevent you from exceeding its built in X-sync speed unless FP mode is available to you and engaged. If the shutter speed value of 30" flashes in the viewfinder then there isn’t enough light to expose the background correctly and you’ll need a larger aperture or faster film. If the camera’s X-sync flashes in the viewfinder then you’ll need to decrease the lens aperture, engage FP mode if it’s available or use slower film.


*Manual (M) exposure mode flash.*



> In manual exposure mode you specify both the aperture and shutter speed, and your exposure settings will determine how the background (ambient lighting) is exposed. The subject, however, can still be illuminated by the automatic flash metering system since the flash can automatically calculate flash output levels for you. This is a marked contrast to the olden days, when photographers would carry around little flash exposure tables with them in order to work out manual flash settings.
> This is how flash works in manual mode. Note that we’re talking about the manual _exposure_ mode setting only, which can use automatic TTL flash metering (it will not use A-TTL metering in manual exposure mode). Also, we _aren’t_ talking about setting the output of the flash manually - that’s manual flash and a different topic altogether.



Set your camera to M for manual exposure mode.
Set the aperture and shutter speed to expose the background correctly.
Press the shutter button down halfway if your flash has a rear-panel LCD (liquid crystal display). The flash coupling range will appear in the flash unit’s LCD. This range is the distance that can safely be covered by the flash.
If your lens has a distance scale you can check the current focussing distance to ensure that the distance to your subject falls within this range. Otherwise you’ll have to estimate.
If the “flash ready” lightning bolt symbol appears in the viewfinder you can press the shutter all the way to take the photo. The flash’s TTL or E-TTL system will determine the flash exposure level of the subject.



> If your flash lacks a rear-panel LCD you won’t have a preview of the flash coupling range, of course. Also, LCD-equipped flash units will not calculate the flash coupling range if you’re using bounce flash, and the coupling range will not necessarily be correct if you have a diffuser on the flash head.
> Some Speedlite flashes, such as the 540EZ and 580EX, can display the coupling range in either feet or metres, depending on which measurement system has been set by the small switch in the battery compartment. Others, such as the 430EZ, are hardwired to one measurement system or the other, depending on where the flash was sold. US market flashes used feet and all other countries on the planet* had only metre flashes available to them.
> * Trivia note - even countries such as Canada and the UK which are officially metric but which are nonetheless full of people who still use imperial measurements. Also Yemen, Rwanda, Burundi and Burma, which used to stand proudly with the USA as the planet’s only officially non-metric countries and which have now given up and are switching over to metric. Liberia is the only holdout I can find, and even there it’s only the government - apparently businesses and schools use metric.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 10, 2020)

*E-TTL flash metering patterns:*

The camera uses its evaluative metering system to meter the flash output, based upon the preflash. When in autofocus mode most EOS bodies which do not use E-TTL II bias flash metering toward the currently selected AF point, but always in an evaluative mode pattern - they don’t use spot or partial metering patterns. When in manual focus mode it appears that at least some EOS bodies switch to centre-weighted averaging.

Note, however, that this biasing of E-TTL metering to the active point is potentially problematic, since it means that the flash metering is done in almost a spot-metering fashion. Many user complaints regarding flash metering problems in E-TTL mode appear to be linked to this issue. If the camera happens to be over a dark object, for example, flash metering can be considerably overexposed, and vice-versa. The standard answer to this problem is to use FEL and meter off something mid-toned, but this is clearly not a solution for rapid-shooting situations such as weddings and sports. Another approach is to set the camera lens to manual focus, since the body apparently switches to centre-weighted average metering in that mode, but that’s obviously not a useful answer much of the time either.

Users of the digital D30 and D60 have been particularly unhappy with E-TTL flash metering. The 10D apparently reduces this problem by defaulting to a centre-weighted averaging metering pattern in E-TTL, even when the lens is set to autofocus.

E-TTL II addresses this problem by altering flash metering considerably. It examines each evaluative metering zone before and after the E-TTL preflash. It then calculates the weighting for each zone independently, biasing against those zones with high reflectivity in the preflash. This means that E-TTL II does not have a flash metering pattern as such, since it’s calculated dynamically.

Note that since I’ve been unable to find definitive published statements from Canon on this topic it isn’t as authoritative as it could be. Please contact me if you have further information about E-TTL flash metering.


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## Valvebounce (Apr 10, 2020)

Hi PBD. 
As always you are a wealth of information, thank you for sharing this with us, so much to take in.

Cheers, Graham.


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## snegri45 (Apr 11, 2020)

Flash color vs. ambient light color temperature.

The woman with the choker was shot under very benign lighting, hanging globes with what seemed like 5,500 K LEDs. I used Auto color balance. The other woman was shot in a lounge with cloudy daylight from a large window behind me, I don't remember the color of the artificial light in the lounge. In both shots there were no significant color issues with the ambient (lucky me!) Also, when you suppress the ambient by a stop you do at least reduce the color conflict.

The nightmare is a room with incandescent light that the Maitre D' turns way down to save electricity. The best way to deal with this is the gel. Slap a CTO (Color Temperature Orange) gel on your flash head. It works. If you are sneaky you can also set the camera white balance to incandescent and you avoid the all orange look.


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## SumanV (Apr 11, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> NK Guy was the person who documented the way E-TTL II works best but that was way back in 2001-2006. the site can still be retrieved via webarchive http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html but below I have copied and pasted the most pertinent part. There are a lot more flash models now and a lot of his articles are not very relevant anymore as they include the older E-TTL and the even earlier A-TTL.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the wonderful information @privatebydesign. I have now understood how the flash works with various modes. I will experiment with the EOS RP and learn flash photography.

Best regards
Suman


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## SumanV (Apr 11, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> *E-TTL flash metering patterns:*
> 
> The camera uses its evaluative metering system to meter the flash output, based upon the preflash. When in autofocus mode most EOS bodies which do not use E-TTL II bias flash metering toward the currently selected AF point, but always in an evaluative mode pattern - they don’t use spot or partial metering patterns. When in manual focus mode it appears that at least some EOS bodies switch to centre-weighted averaging.
> 
> ...



This is amazing! I thought that the metering mode specified will apply for ETTL. As per this information, when the camera is in autofocus mode, it will not use spot/partial metering but instead use evaluative metering. So, in that case, can there be instances when ETTL doesnt do its intended job? Does this mean that manual flash is the only way to go for precise control of lighting? Is there a way to know which metering mode has been chosen by the ETTL to calculate flash exposure? Is this information present in EXIF data?

Best regards
Suman


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## SumanV (Apr 11, 2020)

snegri45 said:


> Flash color vs. ambient light color temperature.
> 
> The woman with the choker was shot under very benign lighting, hanging globes with what seemed like 5,500 K LEDs. I used Auto color balance. The other woman was shot in a lounge with cloudy daylight from a large window behind me, I don't remember the color of the artificial light in the lounge. In both shots there were no significant color issues with the ambient (lucky me!) Also, when you suppress the ambient by a stop you do at least reduce the color conflict.
> 
> ...


Thank you @snegri45 for the tips!

Best regards
Suman


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## privatebydesign (Apr 11, 2020)

SumanV said:


> This is amazing! I thought that the metering mode specified will apply for ETTL. As per this information, when the camera is in autofocus mode, it will not use spot/partial metering but instead use evaluative metering. So, in that case, can there be instances when ETTL doesnt do its intended job? Does this mean that manual flash is the only way to go for precise control of lighting? Is there a way to know which metering mode has been chosen by the ETTL to calculate flash exposure? Is this information present in EXIF data?
> 
> Best regards
> Suman


I just wrote out a long reply but deleted it because the truth is this 2 page article does a much better job. The earlier answer might not have made the differences between E-TTL and E-TTL II clear enough and I apologize if I have caused confusion.









E-TTL II flash technology - Canon Professional Network


<div id="decoration_container"> <img src="./files/education/technical/E-TTL_II/header.jpg" alt="PowerShot G11 G11 II...




cpn.canon-europe.com





But yes, manual flash mode is the only way to get consistent and reliable output from the flash as in E-TTL II there are simply too many variables to process what the camera thinks it should do. However in most situations I find E-TTL II to be reliable enough to give me good enough exposures of what I want so I often use it in dynamic situations like receptions and functions where varying subject distances are simply too numerous to work the flash power accurately.


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## scottkinfw (Apr 12, 2020)

Hi Suman

Great info posted. I have one slight disagreement with @*Valvebounce. The shutter speed plays a role in the flash exposure in this situation. At slower shutter speeds, you begin to pick up more ambient light.

sek*


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## SumanV (Apr 12, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I just wrote out a long reply but deleted it because the truth is this 2 page article does a much better job. The earlier answer might not have made the differences between E-TTL and E-TTL II clear enough and I apologize if I have caused confusion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi @privatebydesign. I will go through the new link you posted. I am once again indebted to you and the other forum members who posted. 

Regards
Suman


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## SumanV (Apr 12, 2020)

scottkinfw said:


> Hi Suman
> 
> Great info posted. I have one slight disagreement with @*Valvebounce. The shutter speed plays a role in the flash exposure in this situation. At slower shutter speeds, you begin to pick up more ambient light.
> 
> sek*



Hi @scottkinfw , thank you very much. I agree with you. I read that aperture and shutter speed control the ambient exposure with the latter controlling the flash exposure as well. I am just learning flash photography and I will experiment as much as possible to learn how different modes behave. My kindest thanks to you and other forum members for the help!

Best regards
Suman


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## Valvebounce (Apr 12, 2020)

Hi Scott.
Thank you for picking up on this point, however my point was that it doesn’t affect the flash power, unlike aperture which affects both the flash and ambient equally.
“Shutter speed has little impact* on the light from the flash” *
perhaps I should have added the caveat that it does affect ambient as normal!

Cheers, Graham. 



scottkinfw said:


> Hi Suman
> 
> Great info posted. I have one slight disagreement with @*Valvebounce. The shutter speed plays a role in the flash exposure in this situation. At slower shutter speeds, you begin to pick up more ambient light.
> 
> sek*


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## VegasCameraGuy (Sep 16, 2020)

I haven't had much experience with flash on my R5 but with my EOS 80D I used my Godox AD360ii-c flash with the Xpro-C flash trigger. What I do is set to Av mode with the aperature set at f8. Configuring the flash for E-TTL, the camera will control the flash and when it gets enough light will turn the flash off. The camera should recognize the flash and set the shutter speed appropriately. Like you I've struggled to find decent information on using flash with the Canon EOS cameras. I've found that the camera does a pretty decent job and you can use the FEC to adjust the exposure up or down a little as required. My 80D tends to shoot about a half stop hot but I can turn it down a little or fix it in Lightroom.

Lots of good comments in this thread!


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## VegasCameraGuy (Sep 16, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I just wrote out a long reply but deleted it because the truth is this 2 page article does a much better job. The earlier answer might not have made the differences between E-TTL and E-TTL II clear enough and I apologize if I have caused confusion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Could you repost the link to his article as I can't find it now?


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## privatebydesign (Sep 16, 2020)

VegasCameraGuy said:


> Could you repost the link to his article as I can't find it now?


Hi VegasCameraGuy, it seems to have been taken down, probably because almost nobody uses the original ETTL now so it might have been considered confusing. 

Specifically what is your question because unless you are using original ETTL gear in truth it is a bit academic.


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## VegasCameraGuy (Sep 16, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Hi VegasCameraGuy, it seems to have been taken down, probably because almost nobody uses the original ETTL now so it might have been considered confusing.
> 
> Specifically what is your question because unless you are using original ETTL gear in truth it is a bit academic.


What I was trying to do is retrieve all of the article that pertains to E-TTL use of flash and store it for future reference. This is the first definition that I've found for using flash on an EOS camera. Thank you for posting this as I haven't found anything similar before. I use a lot of fill flash but it's been mostly trial and error as how the EOS cameras interact with flash has been a mystery to me. I've got a R5 and Godox AD360ii-c flashes.

Is this information available in a book anywhere? Any other resources would be greatly appreciated?


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## VegasCameraGuy (Sep 17, 2020)

VegasCameraGuy said:


> What I was trying to do is retrieve all of the article that pertains to E-TTL use of flash and store it for future reference. This is the first definition that I've found for using flash on an EOS camera. Thank you for posting this as I haven't found anything similar before. I use a lot of fill flash but it's been mostly trial and error as how the EOS cameras interact with flash has been a mystery to me. I've got a R5 and Godox AD360ii-c flashes.
> 
> Is this information available in a book anywhere? Any other resources would be greatly appreciated?


I just found Mastering Canon EOS Flash Photography, 2nd Edition by NK Guy on Amazon and ordered a copy. Thanks for the information about him.


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## SumanV (Sep 17, 2020)

@VegasCameraGuy and @privatebydesign Neil van Niekerk has excellent resources and technical discussion on flash photography. I found that the doubts/confusions I had were already discussed and answered there. 

This is his URL (https://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/) and I think many beginners like me will appreciate the contents.


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## VegasCameraGuy (Sep 17, 2020)

SumanV said:


> @VegasCameraGuy and @privatebydesign Neil van Niekerk has excellent resources and technical discussion on flash photography. I found that the doubts/confusions I had were already discussed and answered there.
> 
> This is his URL (https://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/) and I think many beginners like me will appreciate the contents.


Thanks for the link. It looks like he's got a lot of great information. I can see that I'm going to need a bigger hard drive! LOL


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## VegasCameraGuy (Sep 17, 2020)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Scott.
> Thank you for picking up on this point, however my point was that it doesn’t affect the flash power, unlike aperture which affects both the flash and ambient equally.
> “Shutter speed has little impact* on the light from the flash” *
> perhaps I should have added the caveat that it does affect ambient as normal!
> ...



I'll throw in my favorite quote, "The smarter you become, the dumber you realize you are."


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## privatebydesign (Sep 17, 2020)

VegasCameraGuy said:


> What I was trying to do is retrieve all of the article that pertains to E-TTL use of flash and store it for future reference. This is the first definition that I've found for using flash on an EOS camera. Thank you for posting this as I haven't found anything similar before. I use a lot of fill flash but it's been mostly trial and error as how the EOS cameras interact with flash has been a mystery to me. I've got a R5 and Godox AD360ii-c flashes.
> 
> Is this information available in a book anywhere? Any other resources would be greatly appreciated?


The web archive version can be seen here http://web.archive.org/web/20180720...e.com/content/education/technical/E-TTL_II.do , it will show you the written part of the original article, it won't show the linked pictures.

But be aware that much of the research and articles you are reading are old material much of it reverse engineered by amateurs. Canon are deliberately vague about the details of the way ETTL II works at the level of anticipated exposure, the way it treats subject reflectivity, the way it lowers subject power as EV rises etc etc because those algorithms are proprietary. The concept of how ETTL II works is the same but the only way you get repeatable results is flash and camera in M mode. I do find ETTL II to get subject and background exposures within post processing limitations virtually all the time though, so I happily use it at functions and events. I also love that the Canon system always treated exposure compensation and flash exposure compensation differently, Nikon didn't, so you genuinely and easily have control over both exposures at the same time.



SumanV said:


> @VegasCameraGuy and @privatebydesign Neil van Niekerk has excellent resources and technical discussion on flash photography. I found that the doubts/confusions I had were already discussed and answered there.
> 
> This is his URL (https://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/) and I think many beginners like me will appreciate the contents.


SumanV, I've been a fan and strong advocate of Neil for years and was very relieved he got over his health scare a couple of years ago. His best single piece of advice for on camera flash use BY FAR, the Black Foamie Thing https://neilvn.com/tangents/the-black-foamie-thing/ . I have taught this technique since I first saw it on his site in 2009! Some of his event and on camera flash images are simply amazing and he certainly elevated my on camera flash game substantially.

Here is one of my example images for the BFT use from 2012. No ambient light in this shot at all just a 550EX on camera with a 50c piece of foam and a hairband!


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## SteveC (Sep 18, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> The web archive version can be seen here http://web.archive.org/web/20180720...e.com/content/education/technical/E-TTL_II.do , it will show you the written part of the original article, it won't show the linked pictures.
> 
> But be aware that much of the research and articles you are reading are old material much of it reverse engineered by amateurs. Canon are deliberately vague about the details of the way ETTL II works at the level of anticipated exposure, the way it treats subject reflectivity, the way it lowers subject power as EV rises etc etc because those algorithms are proprietary. The concept of how ETTL II works is the same but the only way you get repeatable results is flash and camera in M mode. I do find ETTL II to get subject and background exposures within post processing limitations virtually all the time though, so I happily use it at functions and events. I also love that the Canon system always treated exposure compensation and flash exposure compensation differently, Nikon didn't, so you genuinely and easily have control over both exposures at the same time.
> 
> ...



Beautiful woman!


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## privatebydesign (Sep 18, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Beautiful woman!


I’m a lucky guy Steve, she’s my wife.


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## SteveC (Sep 18, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I’m a lucky guy Steve, she’s my wife.



I had the sneaking suspicion that would turn out to be the case. Anyway, she might appreciate hearing some guy on the internet was bummed to hear that. (Your option as to whether you want to pass that along.)


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## VegasCameraGuy (Sep 18, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> But be aware that much of the research and articles you are reading are old material much of it reverse engineered by amateurs. Canon are deliberately vague about the details of the way ETTL II works at the level of anticipated exposure, the way it treats subject reflectivity, the way it lowers subject power as EV rises etc etc because those algorithms are proprietary. The concept of how ETTL II works is the same but the only way you get repeatable results is flash and camera in M mode. I do find ETTL II to get subject and background exposures within post processing limitations virtually all the time though, so I happily use it at functions and events. I also love that the Canon system always treated exposure compensation and flash exposure compensation differently, Nikon didn't, so you genuinely and easily have control over both exposures at the same time.


Thanks for the link and I appreciate the difference between older TTL and current designs. Thanks to you, I've finally been able to better understand how the latest EOS flash works. I agree that Canon does not explain how their flash controls operate and it would seem to be in their benefit to fully explain how the various modes operate. I'm sure Nikon and Sony know but amateurs don't have a ton of experts to call upon. Manual is the best way to go but when you're shooting events and don't have the ability to make everyone stand still while you check lighting and reset your camera, forces you to rely on the automated modes. In the old days, I'd use my Metz 202 and my Canon F1 at concerts to get shots when no one else could.


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## SumanV (Sep 22, 2020)

@privatebydesign


privatebydesign said:


> The web archive version can be seen here http://web.archive.org/web/20180720...e.com/content/education/technical/E-TTL_II.do , it will show you the written part of the original article, it won't show the linked pictures.
> 
> But be aware that much of the research and articles you are reading are old material much of it reverse engineered by amateurs. Canon are deliberately vague about the details of the way ETTL II works at the level of anticipated exposure, the way it treats subject reflectivity, the way it lowers subject power as EV rises etc etc because those algorithms are proprietary. The concept of how ETTL II works is the same but the only way you get repeatable results is flash and camera in M mode. I do find ETTL II to get subject and background exposures within post processing limitations virtually all the time though, so I happily use it at functions and events. I also love that the Canon system always treated exposure compensation and flash exposure compensation differently, Nikon didn't, so you genuinely and easily have control over both exposures at the same time.
> 
> ...



@privatebydesign Great photo! I didn't know that Neil had a health scare. I am glad that he is doing fine now. His technical contents are superb. After going through his webpage, I can now say with a degree of confidence that I understand flash photography a little better. I need to practice often in order to hone my skills though and I hope to do that! I am trying to understand how a softbox works. I have seen a couple of videos but I am unable to achieve the look I wanted.

If I remember correctly, he had a youtube video where he tested different light modifiers. This might be the link 




I have a question to ask you. When shooting fast paced events where the subject moves and the location changes how do you get the correct composition and lighting?

Cheers
Suman


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## VegasCameraGuy (Sep 22, 2020)

I often shoot people indoors and with my EOS Canon 80D, I used it in Av mode with the f-stop set to 8 typically. Then I use a 360-watt/sec Godox flash firing into an umbrella on a light stand, fired by an XPro-C wireless trigger. It's a little cumbersome but indoors with a lightweight light stand, you can move it pretty easily. I've got a shoot this weekend and am going to try the same setup with my R5. PrivateByDesign helped a lot with understanding how the new EOS flash works and NK Guy's book on flash are very helpful. My 80D would do pretty good at controlling the light and was seldom more than 1/2-stop off when moving around. I've got a shoot this weekend at the Carol Shelby Museum and am hoping that I get good results with my new camera.


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## unfocused (Sep 22, 2020)

Completely non technical person's opinion using ETTL:

If you are shooting something where you want most of your light to come from the strobe, use manual mode and reduce/increase the shutter speed and or aperture to let in more or less ambient light.

If you are shooting something where you want most of the light to be ambient, use P, AV or TV and use flash compensation to reduce or increase the amount of light coming from the strobe.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 24, 2020)

SumanV said:


> I have a question to ask you. When shooting fast paced events where the subject moves and the location changes how do you get the correct composition and lighting?
> 
> Cheers
> Suman


Well being familiar with the location helps a lot, either because you have shot there before or because of a scouting trip. Knowing where you get good bounce and backgrounds in advance is very valuable.

But if you can’t do that then I just rely on manual camera exposure to nail my ambient and ETTL to control the subject exposure, it is very rare that either exposure is so far off that post processing is impossible. In fast delivery dynamic situations, typically events where they want real time social media output, I shoot RAW and jpeg, if the images don’t need much fettling I’ll give them the jpeg for speed, if they need a bit more pulling and pushing I’ll adjust the RAW file and then give them a jpeg. But the truth is ETTL gets me close enough most of the time.


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## Sporgon (Sep 26, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> typically events where they want real time social media output, I shoot RAW and jpeg, if the images don’t need much fettling I’ll give them the jpeg for speed, if they need a bit more pulling and pushing I’ll adjust the RAW file and then give them a jpeg. .



Yes indeed. A genuinely useful use for two cards slots !!

(P.S. Did you get my files ?)


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## privatebydesign (Sep 26, 2020)

Sporgon said:


> Yes indeed. A genuinely useful use for two cards slots !!
> 
> (P.S. Did you get my files ?)


I did, I have a few more for you I shot this morning too. I'll pm later.


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## VegasCameraGuy (Sep 28, 2020)

Indoors, I try to let the flash supply the light and outdoors just use fill flash.

It's interesting that the R5 has three settings for flash (1) Fill, (2) Standard (whatever that means), and (3) Flash.

I haven't had a chance to really work with flash but it seems like the control is improved over the older design that PBD & MK Guy talked about.

My schedule has been so hectic lately that I haven't been able to experiment with flash but that's high on my list. I'm hoping that based upon the menu selections that you can more easily select fill flash or entirely light the scene with flash.

My primarily flash units are 360watt second Godox units and even bare tube firing into an umbrella, I can typically light an entire room at ISO 100 and f8 using the normal room lighting as a fill.

What I'm planning is to set the shutter speed to 1/60 - 1/200th and Av at f8 and shoot on auto and not manual with the camera set for flash priority. My hope is that will work properly. I don't like to use manual because it adds another layer of complexity. It's too easy to forget a setting and then realize you've screwed up a bunch of shots.


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## snegri45 (Sep 29, 2020)

Since this is still going, and also has evolved a bit, let me jump back in. When I have had enough prep time at a location I have occasionally done as Vegas and lit the whole room with studio type AC strobes, usually Adorama Budget Flash 160 or 300. Put one in each corner, bounce it into the wall/ceiling corner and you will have pretty constant manual exposure anywhere and in any direction. It makes life easy.

Experienced photographers adjusting the flash manually? Haven't done that since the eighties. H'blad, Distagon 50, Vericolor(?) 160, 1/60 sec, f/8, and always keep 8' distance, and you got proper exposure and focus with the proper manual flash setting. There was often a significant "Deer caught in the headlight" look to the subjects, though. So this old and (hopefully) experienced photographer is a dedicated fan of E-TTL II. The flash is a lot smarter than me (doesn't really take a lot) and it sure thinks a lot faster than me.

The young lady eating chicken was shot using the "Blast the Room!" approach. My own approach was a bit messed up, however. No need to use ISO 400 or f/14, ISO 100 and f/ 5.6 or 7.1 would have been just fine. I should also probably have used "Cloudy" white balance on the camera. Live and learn!

The two little girls were lit similarly, but with a spot of fill flash. The two foxy ladies were shot with fairly crappy ambient overhead light and again a bit of Speedlite ceiling bounced fill. The commonality is that in each situation I had time to evaluate the ambient and decide to work with it or against it. But in more fluid situations it gets to be use all the helpful kinds of Auto settings the fabulous Canon eco system gives us, and if need be, adjust in post. All the client wants are great photos that are technically proficient but with GREAT emotions, expressions, and feelings. Let the camera do the proficiency while you work on the emotional part.


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## VegasCameraGuy (Nov 29, 2020)

I've been experimenting with my R5 and a Godox AD360ii strobe into a 24-inch Godox softbox. With AV, ISO 100, and f8 I get good exposures on E-TTL mode using a XPro wireless trigger in typical room lighting. From what I can tell, when the wireless trigger is on the shutter is always 1/200th which is the fastest sync speed.

While the actual exposure is good, it is still from a single softbox so you have to watch for shadows. But, the actual exposure itself looks good letting the camera auto control the flash.


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## privatebydesign (Nov 29, 2020)

VegasCameraGuy said:


> I've been experimenting with my R5 and a Godox AD360ii strobe into a 24-inch Godox softbox. With AV, ISO 100, and f8 I get good exposures on E-TTL mode using a XPro wireless trigger in typical room lighting. From what I can tell, when the wireless trigger is on the shutter is always 1/200th which is the fastest sync speed.
> 
> While the actual exposure is good, it is still from a single softbox so you have to watch for shadows. But, the actual exposure itself looks good letting the camera auto control the flash.


That is not ‘normal‘ behaviour for E-TTL, do you have your Slow Synchro set to 1/250? If you do it will fire the mechanical shutter at 1/200 for all flash exposures.

I’d recommend setting it to 1/250-1/60 Auto to get a better ambient mix.


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## VegasCameraGuy (Nov 29, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> That is not ‘normal‘ behaviour for E-TTL, do you have your Slow Synchro set to 1/250? If you do it will fire the mechanical shutter at 1/200 for all flash exposures.
> 
> I’d recommend setting it to 1/250-1/60 Auto to get a better ambient mix.


I'll check that but I'm pretty sure that the R5 manual says that 1/200 is the highest shutter speed you can use with the R5. Unless I'm using flash for outdoor fill, I'm typically shooting indoors and letting my stobe supply virtually all of the light. Assuming some contribution from room lighting, 1/200 is plenty fast as I like to shoot at f8 or better as much as I can. Even outdoors in the sun, I normally shoot at minimum shutter speeds to allow me smaller apertures for better DOF.


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## privatebydesign (Nov 29, 2020)

VegasCameraGuy said:


> I'll check that but I'm pretty sure that the R5 manual says that 1/200 is the highest shutter speed you can use with the R5. Unless I'm using flash for outdoor fill, I'm typically shooting indoors and letting my stobe supply virtually all of the light. Assuming some contribution from room lighting, 1/200 is plenty fast as I like to shoot at f8 or better as much as I can. Even outdoors in the sun, I normally shoot at minimum shutter speeds to allow me smaller apertures for better DOF.


Yes 1/200 mechanical and 1/250 with the electronic shutter are the fastest sync speeds, but that isn’t traditionally how ETTL II works, traditionally in Av and P modes it will use the shutter speed to give you a better background exposure, it will use the flash power to give you a correct subject exposure. There are two completely different exposure calculations it does automatically, if you are always getting 1/200 shutter speed then it isn’t doing that calculation for the ambient it is just making a subject flash exposure calculation.


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## VegasCameraGuy (Nov 29, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> That is not ‘normal‘ behaviour for E-TTL, do you have your Slow Synchro set to 1/250? If you do it will fire the mechanical shutter at 1/200 for all flash exposures.


You're right thanks for the tip.


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## SumanV (Dec 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> That is not ‘normal‘ behaviour for E-TTL, do you have your Slow Synchro set to 1/250? If you do it will fire the mechanical shutter at 1/200 for all flash exposures.
> 
> I’d recommend setting it to 1/250-1/60 Auto to get a better ambient mix.



@privatebydesign I did not follow you when you said that the behavior was not normal. May I know why it isnt normal?

Thanks and regards
Suman


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## privatebydesign (Dec 2, 2020)

SumanV said:


> @privatebydesign I did not follow you when you said that the behavior was not normal. May I know why it isnt normal?
> 
> Thanks and regards
> Suman


Hi Suman,

By ‘normal’ behaviour I meant always using a shutter speed of 1/200 as VegasCameraGuy said he was getting.

There are two main aspects to ETTL II that the camera controls In Av and P modes, it uses the flash power to control the subject illumination in combination with the set aperture, *and* it controls the ambient exposure separately by changing the shutter speed in combination with the aperture. These are two distinct exposures controlled completely independently at the same time that share a common aperture, which is why ETTL is at it’s most powerful when used in Av mode.

But this can lead to issues because in very dark conditions where the ambient light is minimal the shutter speeds can be very long, up to 30 seconds, the old fashioned way we dealt with this was to use ETTL for the flash but use the camera in M mode, thereby we set the background/ambient exposure and ETTL only dealt with the subject exposure.

The modern solution is to give the camera menu options for shutter speed regardless of the background brightness, the R5 has three options in the Menu under Slow Sync, 1/250-30sec Auto, 1/250-1/60 Auto, and 1/250. Traditionally ETTL II uses 1/250 - 30 sec Auto (or max sync speed to 30 sec), in that it will use any shutter speed it can to get a complimentary background exposure. But as I said this can cause issues in dark settings so rather than us learn how it is actually working Canon gave us a Menu option work around. The 1/250-1/60 Auto is the most useful setting as it caps the slow shutter speed to 1/60 sec thereby preventing the worst of the long exposures in dark situations. The 1/250 option is the newest and sets the background exposure in Av mode to the set aperture and the fastest shutter sync speed, on the R5 that is 1/250 electronic and 1/200 mechanical. Effectively when 1/250 is set in the menu in Av mode the camera is behaving exactly the same as it would be in M mode set to 1/250 electronic or 1/200 mechanical, the ETTL is being limited simply to the subject exposure.

This means half the computing power of ETTL II is being overridden, so is not ‘traditional’ behavior in Av mode. So if you are always getting 1/200 (max mechanical sync speed) as an exposure in Av mode with an R5 and a flash mounted in ETTL then the camera is not working out a background exposure and is behaving exactly the same as it would if you had it in M mode and set the shutter speed to 1/200. Ergo you must have the camera set to override ‘normal’ ETTL II behavior in the Slow Sync options.

Hope this explains it in an understandable way.


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## VegasCameraGuy (Dec 3, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Hi Suman,
> 
> By ‘normal’ behaviour I meant always using a shutter speed of 1/200 as VegasCameraGuy said he was getting.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that helpful explanation. I'm often having to shoot and scoot which means that I don't have the luxury to do test shots and fiddle with the camera and flash settings. For me, being able to shoot ETTL takes one worry off my mind as I'm dealing with moving subjects.


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## privatebydesign (Dec 3, 2020)

VegasCameraGuy said:


> Thanks for that helpful explanation. I'm often having to shoot and scoot which means that I don't have the luxury to do test shots and fiddle with the camera and flash settings. For me, being able to shoot ETTL takes one worry off my mind as I'm dealing with moving subjects.


For sure there is no right or wrong way to work just different ways of achieving the look you want, and ETTL II in general is a great tool. The suggestion was really more about what is happening to the ambient exposure than the flash/subject part, for which I agree ETTL takes a huge amount of stress out of dynamic situations and rarely misses the exposure so badly the image can't be saved. 

Many people seem to miss the fact that you can use ETTL even when the camera is set in M mode, but more importantly depending on the ambient light and the ambience understanding how you can get the camera to include, or exclude, that ambient light is important, people pay fortunes for venues and lighting/branding/ambience and having the camera automatically exclude it all in favor of a single small on camera bulb is rarely optimal. Back in the day wedding and event photographers would call the technique 'dragging the shutter', nowadays that ability completely automatically is hidden amongst obscure settings in the menus like Slow Sync!


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## SumanV (Dec 4, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Hi Suman,
> 
> By ‘normal’ behaviour I meant always using a shutter speed of 1/200 as VegasCameraGuy said he was getting.
> 
> ...



Thank you, @privatebydesign. I now understand this perfectly.

I wanted to ask you whether AE lock would help in achieving good exposure without having to resort to overriding the normal ETTL II behavior?

Thanks and regards
Suman


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## VegasCameraGuy (Dec 5, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> For sure there is no right or wrong way to work just different ways of achieving the look you want, and ETTL II in general is a great tool. The suggestion was really more about what is happening to the ambient exposure than the flash/subject part, for which I agree ETTL takes a huge amount of stress out of dynamic situations and rarely misses the exposure so badly the image can't be saved.
> 
> Many people seem to miss the fact that you can use ETTL even when the camera is set in M mode, but more importantly depending on the ambient light and the ambience understanding how you can get the camera to include, or exclude, that ambient light is important, people pay fortunes for venues and lighting/branding/ambience and having the camera automatically exclude it all in favor of a single small on camera bulb is rarely optimal. Back in the day wedding and event photographers would call the technique 'dragging the shutter', nowadays that ability completely automatically is hidden amongst obscure settings in the menus like Slow Sync!


Thanks as always for your sage advice. Now if I could just get Godox to build a potato masher style flash with the capacitors in the battery pack, I'd be in heaven! I love the AD360ii but it's heavy on an L bracket. There are times when I'm tempted to dig my Metz 202's out of storage and use those.


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## privatebydesign (Dec 7, 2020)

SumanV said:


> Thank you, @privatebydesign. I now understand this perfectly.
> 
> I wanted to ask you whether AE lock would help in achieving good exposure without having to resort to overriding the normal ETTL II behavior?
> 
> ...


No I don't think AE lock is going to help much because that is going to lock in your slow shutter speed ambient exposure. But don't forget in this 'dual exposure' ETTL II situation exposure compensation, EC, will only affect the ambient exposure so you can raise the auto shutter speed by three stops by dialing in -3 on your EC. Flash exposure compensation, FEC, will only affect the subject exposure (although that relies on their not being too much flash spill), so if your subject is very bright, or dark, or has reflective clothing on etc you can compensate for that alone with FEC.

For me this ability to control the flash and the ambient exposures independently was a key selling feature of the Canon flash system over the earlier Nikon flash system that worked a very different way. Though I do wish Canon flashes had a simple dumb light trigger like most Nikon flashes do and did.


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## VegasCameraGuy (Dec 9, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> No I don't think AE lock is going to help much because that is going to lock in your slow shutter speed ambient exposure. But don't forget in this 'dual exposure' ETTL II situation exposure compensation, EC, will only affect the ambient exposure so you can raise the auto shutter speed by three stops by dialing in -3 on your EC. Flash exposure compensation, FEC, will only affect the subject exposure (although that relies on their not being too much flash spill), so if your subject is very bright, or dark, or has reflective clothing on etc you can compensate for that alone with FEC.
> 
> For me this ability to control the flash and the ambient exposures independently was a key selling feature of the Canon flash system over the earlier Nikon flash system that worked a very different way. Though I do wish Canon flashes had a simple dumb light trigger like most Nikon flashes do and did.





privatebydesign said:


> For sure there is no right or wrong way to work just different ways of achieving the look you want, and ETTL II in general is a great tool. The suggestion was really more about what is happening to the ambient exposure than the flash/subject part, for which I agree ETTL takes a huge amount of stress out of dynamic situations and rarely misses the exposure so badly the image can't be saved.
> 
> Many people seem to miss the fact that you can use ETTL even when the camera is set in M mode, but more importantly depending on the ambient light and the ambience understanding how you can get the camera to include, or exclude, that ambient light is important, people pay fortunes for venues and lighting/branding/ambience and having the camera automatically exclude it all in favor of a single small on camera bulb is rarely optimal. Back in the day wedding and event photographers would call the technique 'dragging the shutter', nowadays that ability completely automatically is hidden amongst obscure settings in the menus like Slow Sync!


I tried setting the shutter speed to go between 1/60 - 1/200th and the results were good in TTL mode except the flash tended to over expose by 1/2-1 stop. I was shooting pictures at dusk in a park and thinking about it, the camera was trying to light up the whole scene. Looking at the images they were shot at 1/60th f8 and somewhat overexposed but the background was dark as expected. It was easy to correct the exposure and limiting the slowest shutter speed to 1/60 prevented the camera from doing a long exposure to show the background.


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## SumanV (Dec 15, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> No I don't think AE lock is going to help much because that is going to lock in your slow shutter speed ambient exposure. But don't forget in this 'dual exposure' ETTL II situation exposure compensation, EC, will only affect the ambient exposure so you can raise the auto shutter speed by three stops by dialing in -3 on your EC. Flash exposure compensation, FEC, will only affect the subject exposure (although that relies on their not being too much flash spill), so if your subject is very bright, or dark, or has reflective clothing on etc you can compensate for that alone with FEC.
> 
> For me this ability to control the flash and the ambient exposures independently was a key selling feature of the Canon flash system over the earlier Nikon flash system that worked a very different way. Though I do wish Canon flashes had a simple dumb light trigger like most Nikon flashes do and did.


Thank you @privatebydesign 

Regards
Suman


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