# Manual Focusing



## climber (Sep 6, 2014)

Hi.

I'd like to ask something about manual focusing those of you, who are experienced with this technique. I understand that, it's not a problem while shooting landscape on a tripod. But what, when the subject is not still? Is even possible to maintain the subject in focus in this case? I also understand that this would not be a big issue if shooting with an ultra-wide angle lens like 15 mm. In this case almost everything is in focus anyway.

I get this question now, when Zeiss is going to announce their 85mm f/1.4 lens. Whit this lens, DOF should be really shallow. Is even possible to shoot something handheld with this lens? Or even more extreme example: Is even possible to shoot handheld a moving subject?

Thanks


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## Marsu42 (Sep 6, 2014)

climber said:


> But what, when the subject is not still? Is even possible to maintain the subject in focus in this case?



Short answer: forget it (imho, ymmv, afaik of course ).

Long answer: Even modern af systems are challenged to get something reliably in focus on full frame with a 85mm wide open - the "standard" depth of field is just 1cm for a subject 1m away. If you do larger prints, it gets worse since the (always!) subjective dof depends on export/view size.

As for mf'ing a moving object, I'd love to since my 6d's af tracking is below mediocre. But even this af is still way better than anything manual unless you train for a specific scene. I guess it's like knife throwing: If you've managed to calibrate for a certain distance and object, you can reproduce it, but only for this constellation. Seasoned photogs feel free to contradict me though.


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## Sporgon (Sep 6, 2014)

climber said:


> Hi.
> 
> I'd like to ask something about manual focusing those of you, who are experienced with this technique. I understand that, it's not a problem while shooting landscape on a tripod. But what, when the subject is not still? Is even possible to maintain the subject in focus in this case? I also understand that this would not be a big issue if shooting with an ultra-wide angle lens like 15 mm. In this case almost everything is in focus anyway.
> 
> ...



Many action shots in the days of manual focus were 'zone focused' ie you focus on a predetermined point and then the action reaches that point you shoot. In those days a very shallow dof action shot was rare and potentially valuable, whereas now they are everywhere. 

Tracking with manual focus is possible with practice and skill, but in reality requires a greater dof. If someone is going to shoot a manual 85/1.4 @ 1.4 without live view they are going to need an 's' screen and good eye sight to get even something that is stationary sharp, let alone moving.


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## Artifex (Sep 6, 2014)

Manual focus is more difficult than automatic focus, but it is, in my opinion, possible in every situation. A good focusing screen really helps, especially for a fast telephoto like a 85mm f/1.4. If you want to be effective with manual focussing however, there is no secret, you just have to practice, practice, and practice some more! I have been shooting manually for years now and I find it faster and more precise than autofocusing, but it did took lots of missed shots beforehand.


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## yorgasor (Sep 6, 2014)

I've shot a lot of manual focus stuff while either the subject was moving or I was (took a canal tour in Thailand a couple weeks ago). For the canal tour, I used a 40 yr old 180mm Nikon, took a lot of photos and had a lot of misses. If I had been shooting at f/2.8, I don't know that I would've had any hits. I certainly wouldn't use an 85mm at f/1.4 on a moving subject and expect to get anything other than by sheer luck. Spray and pray


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## NancyP (Sep 6, 2014)

Manual focus of fast-moving subjects is a skill requiring a lot of practice and a good focusing screen. That's why good sports photography was considered difficult in the old days, although a lot of the shots were obtained by zone focusing and waiting for the player to pass through that in-focus zone. Manual focus of portrait subjects is a lot easier, and I suspect that the 85mm f/1.4 MF lenses are used primarily by portrait photographers, 85mm being a flattering FL on full frame for portraiture. 

I find MF of my 400mm f/5.6L plus 1.4x TC, a combo that won't AF on my 60D or any other non-1D series camera, difficult even for static subjects. I usually end up zone focusing on the nest or in front of the nest hole when waiting for parent bird to approach nest. Setting up usually requires live view magnification for MF.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 6, 2014)

NancyP said:


> I find MF of my 400mm f/5.6L plus 1.4x TC, a combo that won't AF on my 60D or any other non-1D series camera, difficult even for static subjects.



The 5d3 now has f8 af, too, and you can try taping some pins to force the camera into af'ing even if it's slow and hit-or-miss with an older camera like the 60d. The other alternative is to use the Kenko 1.4x tc, it convinces all Canon bodies to af at f8.


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## Eldar (Sep 8, 2014)

I have close to 30 years of manual focus experience, before I got my first AF, so that may give me some advantage. After more than a decade with nothing but AF, I have bought a number of manual focus lenses and I am now using them more and more. I use the Ec-S focusing screen on the 1DX and I also tried the Eg-S focusing screen on the 5DIII, which is meant for the 5DII and 6D, but that did not work over time. I am dreaming of a 40MP FF Canon, with 14 stop DR and a good S focusing screen.

With the 1DX and quite a bit of practice, I get (in my view) very high keeper rates. The Otus 55 at f1.4 and the 135 at f2.0 represents challenges though. So if things starts moving, I normally go to higher f-stop numbers. But landscape, stills and portraits are clearly doable, even wide open.

The attached is with the 135 at f2.0 and handheld 1DX and Ec-S

(Unfortunately all my posts have horrible colors, but if you open it, it looks better)


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## BL (Sep 8, 2014)

Eldar,

Do you have to apply a global EC when you use the Ec-S, since the metering doesn't know how to handle the unsupported screen?

I've been using live view in the meantime, which is a PITA handheld haha


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## Sporgon (Sep 8, 2014)

Eldar said:


> I have close to 30 years of manual focus experience, before I got my first AF, so that may give me some advantage. After more than a decade with nothing but AF, I have bought a number of manual focus lenses and I am now using them more and more. I use the Ec-S focusing screen on the 1DX and I also tried the Eg-S focusing screen on the 5DIII, which is meant for the 5DII and 6D, but that did not work over time. I am dreaming of a 40MP FF Canon, with 14 stop DR and a good S focusing screen.
> 
> With the 1DX and quite a bit of practice, I get (in my view) very high keeper rates. The Otus 55 at f1.4 and the 135 at f2.0 represents challenges though. So if things starts moving, I normally go to higher f-stop numbers. But landscape, stills and portraits are clearly doable, even wide open.
> 
> ...



Horse just back from a competition ? Lots of cool clay left on !


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## Eldar (Sep 8, 2014)

BL said:


> Eldar,
> 
> Do you have to apply a global EC when you use the Ec-S, since the metering doesn't know how to handle the unsupported screen?
> 
> I've been using live view in the meantime, which is a PITA handheld haha


With the Eg-S focusing screen in the 5DIII I had to apply about 2/3 f-stop EC. But I cannot recommend this combo to anyone. It is not a perfect mechanical fit and it gave me a weird focus offset (looked as if the diopter was totally off). 

The Ec-S is supported on the 1DX and I am not using any offset to regular metering, other than what a particular shooting situation may require.


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## Eldar (Sep 8, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> Horse just back from a competition ? Lots of cool clay left on !


Yupp. Beautiful animal!


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## climber (Sep 8, 2014)

Beautiful image, Eldar!

So, thank you for all your responses.

Below which focal lengths do you think autofocus really isn't necessary? Probably with Zeiss 15mm lack of AF is not a problem at all?


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## mackguyver (Sep 8, 2014)

Eldar, you're not helping my Zeiss 135 f/2 lust today! Great photo and what a beautiful horse and farm. Also, I was just looking through the 1D X manual and see that the Ec-S screen is not fully supported (beyond fitting in the camera). I have one on the way now, and I'm not worried about it based on your & Edward's comments, but take a look at what it says:


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## Eldar (Sep 8, 2014)

climber said:


> Beautiful image, Eldar!
> 
> So, thank you for all your responses.
> 
> Below which focal lengths do you think autofocus really isn't necessary? Probably with Zeiss 15mm lack of AF is not a problem at all?


With my 15mm and 21mm lenses I hardly have any missed shots (from a focusing point of view that is ). With the Otus I can hit most moderately moving subjects from about f4.0, whereas the 135mm requires maximum concentration (and not much movement) every time.


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## gsealy (Sep 8, 2014)

One thing to do is to plan ahead a little bit by calculating the depth of field using different parameters. You can estimate the distance. There are some nice mobile apps that do this. Once you have a depth of field in which the subject can move, then fire away. One good thing about this method is that will enhance one's understanding between exposure, f stop, distance, and DOF. It is a good exercise in camera 101. 

Video guys use mostly manual focus when they can script a segment. They will want a narrow depth of field to get the 'film effect". For that they use a follow focus, cine style lens, and tons of practice. Documentaries are done a whole lot easier when there is a good AF such as found in the current C300 and C100 cameras.


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## Eldar (Sep 8, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> Eldar, you're not helping my Zeiss 135 f/2 lust today! Great photo and what a beautiful horse and farm. Also, I was just looking through the 1D X manual and see that the Ec-S screen is not fully supported (beyond fitting in the camera). I have one on the way now, and I'm not worried about it based on your & Edward's comments, but take a look at what it says:


I ordered it from B&H after having read "Compatible with Canon EOS 1D Mk II N, 1D Mk III, 1D Mk IV, 1Ds Mk III, and 1Dx". It fits perfectly and, after a fairly high number of shots, it works perfectly. On the Norwegian Canon-site they say that Ec focusing screens are supported.


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## nc0b (Sep 8, 2014)

My only manual focus lens is the Zeiss 18mm f/3.5. I generally zone focus it, though the focus acknowledgement on my Canon bodies works pretty well, with some hysteresis. The attached photo, taken with a 5D classic, was zone focused to keep the distant landscape and the close-in foliage reasonably sharp. The depth-of-field scale on the Zeiss is a bit optimistic in my opinion, so I use the scale as if I was setting the aperture one stop wider. Attached image was shot at 1/320 sec/ f/11 and ISO 200. The uploaded file was reduced by 50% in Photoshop. Nothing else was done to the image. With a standard focusing screen, I think I would have problems manually focusing any lens well at wide apertures. In the dim past, with my Nikon F2 and a "P" 45 degree angle split image screen, focusing was pretty much a piece of cake.


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## eml58 (Sep 8, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> Eldar, you're not helping my Zeiss 135 f/2 lust today! Great photo and what a beautiful horse and farm. Also, I was just looking through the 1D X manual and see that the Ec-S screen is not fully supported (beyond fitting in the camera). I have one on the way now, and I'm not worried about it based on your & Edward's comments, but take a look at what it says:



That's interesting mackguyver, Thanks appreciated (at some point in my life I'll start to actually read the Manuals that come with this gear, or keep reading CR, which is easier).

I've not found any need as yet to apply compensation when using the Ec-S screen in the 1Dx, but having said that I set Manual Exposure 100% of the time when using the Zeiss Lenses, and about 50% of the time I use a Sekonic 758DR or more recently the Sekonic 478DR. When I have the time & compare Exposure between the Sekonics & the 1Dx on Auto, there's invariably some difference, but not to the point that exposure adjustments in Auto really make the expense of the Sekonics a must, I just like using the Sekonics I guess.

To the point I recently purchased the Sekonic C500R, not sure it's helped but it's techy enough to keep me interested.

Also, Nice Horse Image Eldar, they have big teeth & often bad attitude as well, worth shooting.


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## mackguyver (Sep 9, 2014)

My first job out of school was as a technical writer producing manuals so I suppose I have a bit more appreciation for them than the average person . I have also realized over the years that the Canon manuals are full of great information in the tips and notes sections and these little things can actually make a big difference in how the camera works. I don't sit down and read them, but I will look them up here and there.

As for the metering, I am constantly using exposure compensation in Av mode or shooting in M, so I'm not too worried about it. It's interesting to hear about your experience with the Sekonic and though I sold my meter back when I got out of film, I can appreciate their place.


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## Eldar (Sep 15, 2014)

I think this thread deserves to live a little longer. 

I and many with me have a history in the old manual focus world, so I/we are probably less skeptical to manual focus than some of you with only autofocus background. So I thought I´d start, and I hope many others will follow, to give manual focus examples.

Be aware that this is from manual focus practice and not something else. In this example I believe most autofocus systems would fail and focus on the boards in front of The Local Lion. With manual focus, I could easily make sure he was in focus. 

1DX, w. Ec-S focusing screen, Zeiss Otus 55mm, f1.4, 1/1000s, ISO100


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## JimKarczewski (Sep 15, 2014)

Depends on your experience level and how long you've been shooting. Saw an ex-boss shooting for another paper and he was there with his Nikon 400/2.8 MF. He says it's hit or miss, but for what most of the freelancers get paid it's not something that you will be able to upgrade to a 400/2.8 AF lens unless they have you shooting daily and you do a LOT of sports.

I MF on still landscapes, but that's about it.


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## lo lite (Sep 15, 2014)

Eldar said:


> I have close to 30 years of manual focus experience, before I got my first AF, so that may give me some advantage. After more than a decade with nothing but AF, I have bought a number of manual focus lenses and I am now using them more and more. I use the Ec-S focusing screen on the 1DX and I also tried the Eg-S focusing screen on the 5DIII, which is meant for the 5DII and 6D, but that did not work over time. I am dreaming of a 40MP FF Canon, with 14 stop DR and a good S focusing screen.



I've read (here in the forums) that the focusing screen on the 5DIII is not interchangeable. Is this wrong or how did you manage to get that screen into the body?


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## Eldar (Sep 15, 2014)

lo lite said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > I have close to 30 years of manual focus experience, before I got my first AF, so that may give me some advantage. After more than a decade with nothing but AF, I have bought a number of manual focus lenses and I am now using them more and more. I use the Ec-S focusing screen on the 1DX and I also tried the Eg-S focusing screen on the 5DIII, which is meant for the 5DII and 6D, but that did not work over time. I am dreaming of a 40MP FF Canon, with 14 stop DR and a good S focusing screen.
> ...


The Eg-S screen is slightly smaller than the standard screen, so you´ll get it in easily. But it is a bit nerve wrecking. You find a video at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1xUyqQNlys explaining what you have to do. At first it worked very well, but after a while i got a weird focus offset. So today I am only using the standard screen.

A couple of days ago I ordered a custom made S-screen for the 5DIII from Taiwan. It was 3x the price, but if it works, it is well worth it. I´ll report back when I have tried it.


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