# 4K to spend and I don't know what to do with it!!!



## darryl (May 15, 2012)

So the money has finally come in and now its time to make some purchases. My wife is just starting wedding photography and I'm the one that researches the gear to make wise purchases. She has done one extremely small wedding (50 people very very laid back) and this is what we had at the time.

Canon 60D
Canon 50 f/1.4
Canon ef-s 18-135
speedlight 430 ex ii

This wedding season we have 3 weddings lined up. I know we were lucky to get away with one body the first time through but I don't want to take that chance again and I know having a second body would be nice (dont have to change lenses 100 times). So I'm looking to buy a second body and a lens or two and I have around 4K. 

I know that primes have the best IQ and really low f-stops which are great for weddings but considering my wife is just getting going I think quality L zooms would in the end provide the best results.

So my question is which body should I get? And which zoom lenses should I get?

I was thinking a 5D mark II, and a 16-35mm f/2.8 II L and then some other lens. What do you guys think?

p.s. the total doesn't have to be 4k exactly. No more then 4.5K though.


----------



## EOBeav (May 15, 2012)

You've got your focal ranges covered, along with a 50 prime, although I have no idea what IQ you're getting with that 18-135. Having a 2nd body at the event would be a must. 

Personally, I'd go with a 7D body, and then look to boost your lighting by quite a bit. You should be able to get a couple of bigger setups along with some triggers/power for that kind of change, but that is some unexplored territory for me.


----------



## bycostello (May 15, 2012)

training...


----------



## darryl (May 15, 2012)

I just had a mini panic attack. My last name is costello and I thought that somehow the forum got my information. Then I just realized you prolly have the same name 

Anyways, I'm not sure what training has to do with spending 4,000 dollars. I'm not asking how to be a better wedding photographer but am asking what equipment I should buy.

As for EOBeav thanks for your reply. The IQ on the 18-135 is laughable in my opinion. I'm looking to get some L glass to help in that area.

So you think upping my lighting setup should come before new lenses?


----------



## KreutzerPhotography (May 15, 2012)

2nd the 7d suggestion... good glass is a must... I tend to shoot with tele more than WA at weddings so i would reccommend a 70-200 2.8 is II... That is what I am currently saving up for (as an upgrade from my f/4 L is). upgrading to FF without lenses to match feels like a waste of time. If you have 1 EF-s and 1 EF lens I would put your money into more glass first... 

I currently run a 70-200 f/4L IS and a 16-35 f/2.8L on crop bodies for weddings... I do miss having the medium focal length (24-70) and will look into that soon...

I guess ultimately I would get a second hand 7D ($1200-1400) a 70-200mm L IS ([f/4-$1000]-[f/2.8II-$2400]) and a 24-70mm 2.8 ($1100) totaling 4.5K or so... I bought both my L lenses on Craigs List and got a great deal... Be sure to check the glass for scratches...


----------



## KreutzerPhotography (May 15, 2012)

darryl said:


> I just had a mini panic attack. My last name is costello and I thought that somehow the forum got my information. Then I just realized you prolly have the same name
> 
> Anyways, I'm not sure what training has to do with spending 4,000 dollars. I'm not asking how to be a better wedding photographer but am asking what equipment I should buy.
> 
> ...



a good 430ex II should be fine as far as flash goes... I guess another flash couldnt hurt (backup purposes)... Since you have a 430 already glass would be my next step!


----------



## nitsujwalker (May 15, 2012)

You could consider the 5d2 and maybe the 70-200 f2.8


----------



## Astro (May 15, 2012)

> 4K to spend and I don't know what to do with it!!! )



http://www.brot-fuer-die-welt.de/english/index.php


----------



## AJ (May 15, 2012)

darryl said:


> I was thinking a 5D mark II, and a 16-35mm f/2.8 II L and then some other lens.



Don't get the 16-35 for now. It's a specialty lens.

I suggest 5D mk2, 24-105/4L kit lens, and a 580 EX flash. You could pocket the rest of the money, splurge on a 70-200/2.8L IS mk2, or compromise and look for a used 70-200/2.8L IS mk1.


----------



## scotthillphoto (May 15, 2012)

Personally it all depends on the style of shooting you are doing, since I come from a sports background my set up is a 7D and 5Diii both have a great autofocus system and that's a big key for me. If you don't need that then I would go for the 5Dii its a great body and the noise performance is better than that of the 7D, but the focus system and FPS is not as good.... As for glass I would get the cheaper 70-200 2.8 non IS, you save about a grand and as long as you keep a higher shutter speed you won't need it... I wouldn't get the 16-35 its too wide to use 9 times out of 10, but it is nice for those specialty shots, but you can use you 18-135 if you need to... but until I just recently upgraded I shot with a 30 1.4 on my 50D and a 70-200 on my 7D... That is a great set up and doesn't require a ton of money, but I have money invested in other strobes and stuff.... But the main thing you need is some good fast glass....


----------



## D_Rochat (May 15, 2012)

AJ said:


> Don't get the 16-35 for now. It's a specialty lens.



Agreed. Maybe in the future, but 24mm will be wide enough on a full frame if you get a 5D mark II.

What I would do is consider selling the 60D with your lenses and talking to a local store about bundling a 5D mark II with a 24-70 and pick up a used 550D (same sensor as the 60D) for a back-up. A 5D body with a used lens is something to consider to save. 

I would look into a 70-200 as well. Ideally, you'd want the 2.8 IS ver II (amazing lens), but a non IS or IS ver I is also something to consider. 

You could stretch your money further if you buy all used, but I would want the 5D II with a 24-200 focal range and a rebel back-up to start. I think the 430 ex II is fine for now and revisit upgrading after a few more weddings.


----------



## Drizzt321 (May 15, 2012)

I'd probably go with the 7D (better AF than 5d2, although not as good high ISO). If you really want a FF body, the 5d2 is great, but once I got the 5d3 the AF blew me away compared to the 5d2 (important for a wedding), and the high ISO is a good bit better (quality of noise especially) than the 5d2. It's an expensive upgrade, $3500 just for the body and you can't use the EF-S lens on it. If you can push it, the extra $300 for the kit with the 24-105 is a good deal, as it's a very nice & versatile lens. It is only f/4, but with the 5d3 you can make it work fine.

As KreutzerPhotography said, putting your money into good glass, and maybe the 7D is a better way to go. If she wants to go up to the 5d2/5d3 at some time, I'd avoid EF-S lenses, and stick with EF for now. For used lenses, CL can be good (careful to check the glass, including the looking through to make sure there's no fungus), or keh.com I've heard is good as well.


----------



## mdm041 (May 15, 2012)

The 7d high iso noise won't be odeal for indoor wedding photography IMHO. It will be no better than your 60d. Go with the 5d mkii or mkiii and the 24-70 f2.8 is a great walk around wedding lens. If you want some more reach then go for the 70-200 f/2.8...pick a version depending on how much money you have left. 

I agree the 16-35 isn't useful enough to add to your kit just yet. 

Another idea that was mentioned above was to add some flashes, radios and some tall flash stands. Take that with an off camera flash bracket and you could get away with a 7d perhaps. You would also need to grab a few flash battery backs as well. But you might spend so much on flashes and radios that you might not have enough for a lens.


----------



## preppyak (May 15, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> What I would do is consider selling the 60D with your lenses and talking to a local store about bundling a 5D mark II with a 24-70 and pick up a used 550D (same sensor as the 60D) for a back-up. A 5D body with a used lens is something to consider to save.


I'm not sure the turnaround on that conversion is really worth the, what, $200 you'll get from it. The 550D body feels like crap in your hand; which is a big deal if you'll be holding it for several hours at a time. Then we can talk about battery life (nearly 3x as long with the 60D and the compatibility of 60D batteries with the 5D and 7D), how easy the controls are to work (much easier on a 60D, though not as good as the 5D/7D); not to mention AF and burst rate. There are other smaller things; but the ones listed above are reason enough not to downgrade.

I'd sell the 18-135 ($200), unless you see yourself using it for travel, etc. Then get yourself a 5DmarkII to complement your 60D ($1500 through Canon Loyalty Program)...then I'd consider where you are shooting those 3 weddings. If they are outdoor weddings, I'd get the 70-200 f/4 IS and mount on the 60D($1000ish used), and a 24-70 f/2.8 ($1000). If they are indoor weddings, then you want to go more primes for low-light handling. Either way, you should have leftover money for another flash, even if it's another 430ex.

Lots of ways you could go...but, Id say going the full-frame low-light handling route would be the most ideal to complement the 60D. And going 5DII over 5DIII allows you a lot more room for new glass. Then maybe next wedding season you'll upgrade the 60D to something else


----------



## preppyak (May 15, 2012)

Also, in terms of places to shop for equipment, I've had good luck on FredMiranda.


----------



## darryl (May 15, 2012)

Thanks for all the reply's. Alot of good information. I really appreciate it. 

As for selling the 60D I can't. I used it to propose to my wife (bait and switch...2 year aniversary get a camera not a ring....except I did get a ring and caught it on film!!! Proposal if you care to take a look). Anyways she would never ever ever let me sell that camera. Sentimental value.

Also I didn't know the 16-35 was considered a specialty lens. I heard alot of great reviews about getting good shots in tight spots when your inside and can't get the distance needed to frame properly. What do you guys thinK?


----------



## D_Rochat (May 15, 2012)

darryl said:


> As for selling the 60D I can't. I used it to propose to my wife (bait and switch...2 year aniversary get a camera not a ring....except I did get a ring and caught it on film!!!



Well played! She seemed a little excited.

The 550D thing was just an option with a tight budget in mind. Yes $4000 is tight with body and glass! I'd still get at least a 5D II for ff and low light performance and see what you budget looks like after that. Don't worry about the AF either. You're shooting weddings, not Formula One.


----------



## cayenne (May 15, 2012)

bycostello said:


> training...


Suggestions for where one would go to get training like this?

C


----------



## zim (May 15, 2012)

finally someone has demonstrated a good use for video on a DSLR, lovely!!! very well done


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (May 15, 2012)

For weddings, a 5D MK II might be a good choice. Often, you can't use a flash, and you need not only low light capabilities found in full frasme bodies, but the 5D MK II's ability to focus in low light. I'd only use the center point with this camera, but the center point is very good.

You can often find a good used one at the Canon site. They do run out quicklly, so keep an eye on it. If you can find a old Canon film slr or broken posershot, its good for about 20% off a refurb thru the Canon Loyalty program, which drops the price with tax and shipping to about $1500. I have my old camera here and am waiting  

As for lens, a 35mm L and a 85mm f/1.8 will supplement your 50mm nicely. I do not recommend anything slower than f/2.8, and without flash, thats marginal. Your 18-135 is a outdoor lens, keep it at f/8 and it will do reasonably well.


----------



## preppyak (May 15, 2012)

darryl said:


> Also I didn't know the 16-35 was considered a specialty lens. I heard alot of great reviews about getting good shots in tight spots when your inside and can't get the distance needed to frame properly. What do you guys thinK?


It's specialty depending on your style. On a crop body it'd actually be a pretty decent general zoom...but that's only because of the crop factor cutting out the main area of distortion on the edges.

On full frame, the distortion at the wide end means you have to be very careful about where you place your subjects. Anything in the edges and you get some really fat looking people...not so good. And so unless you plan to use the 16-24 range a lot, it makes more sense to go another way.

Really depends a lot on your style. If you're used to zooms, a complete change to prime will take some adjustment that might be tough during wedding season


----------



## cayenne (May 15, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> For weddings, a 5D MK II might be a good choice. Often, you can't use a flash, and you need not only low light capabilities found in full frasme bodies, but the 5D MK II's ability to focus in low light. I'd only use the center point with this camera, but the center point is very good.
> 
> You can often find a good used one at the Canon site. They do run out quicklly, so keep an eye on it. If you can find a old Canon film slr or broken posershot, its good for about 20% off a refurb thru the Canon Loyalty program, which drops the price with tax and shipping to about $1500. I have my old camera here and am waiting
> 
> As for lens, a 35mm L and a 85mm f/1.8 will supplement your 50mm nicely. I do not recommend anything slower than f/2.8, and without flash, thats marginal. Your 18-135 is a outdoor lens, keep it at f/8 and it will do reasonably well.



Canon website charges *sales tax*?!?!?!?

What's the deal with that?


----------



## Enrico (May 15, 2012)

I would go for:

5d2
35/1.4L
135/2L

Find some of them used and you will be fine with 4k.

(Edit. bad spelling)


----------



## kwwalla (May 15, 2012)

Hi, and very nice video! Was worth the cost of the camera to capture such a memory!

Anyhow, my two cents:

Get a 5DII. It's low light (high ISO) performance will come to the rescue (trust me). Next, obviously the 24-70 is the best choice, but the 24-105 will work in most scenarios, although she will have to push the ISO at times. This lens will be used for the majority of her work. 

If you are going to use the 60D as a backup, then you should sell the 18-135 and replace it with something like the 17-55 or 15-85. As far as I'm concerned, you will need a 580EX-II as well. Learn to bounce the flash. Learn to gel the flash using CTO gels. Find some local venues and practice. After that, generate some revenue and look to purchase a 70-200 f2.8 and other "quality" lenses at some point.

Have fun!


----------



## Dylan777 (May 15, 2012)

My 2 cents:
I think 7D + 17-55mm f2.8 IS is GREAT COMBO. 

You can find a used pair for $2500 to $3000 - and you still have 1000plus in your pocket.

AF on 5D II is NOT that good...save your money for 5D III. Been there done that


----------



## Enrico (May 15, 2012)

It of course depends on her shooting style.

I'd say most people want some dreamy photos of their wedding, and given the 1.6 crop of 60D the FF has a huge advantage in creating thos dreamy shots.

The 50/1.4 you have as of today will be different of a FF. All lenses will be more weddingish on FF, hence go FF.

While the 5d3 would be tempting I think she/you would be better of proving the business with a 5d2 and better glass.

The 35/1.4 is great (and you already have 50mm covered decently)

And then I would choose between a Sigma 85/1.4 and the Canon 135/2.

The 70-200/2.8 L IS II is great. But it will not create the same images as mentioned lenses above (in terms of dreaminess) and you will get 2 L glass for amost the price of one 70-200...

There are complaints about 5d2 AF, but we should not forget it has been one the most used wedding cameras the past 3 years and the center point is OK. And I would go for "crappy AF" on a FF vs good AF on a crop for weddings every day...

And finally... the 5d2 ISO capabilities is far better than those of the 7D, sure you will throw away a few shots... but still... when it hits it will give more customers...


----------



## elflord (May 15, 2012)

darryl said:


> I know that primes have the best IQ and really low f-stops which are great for weddings but considering my wife is just getting going I think quality L zooms would in the end provide the best results.
> 
> So my question is which body should I get? And which zoom lenses should I get?
> 
> ...



5D Mark II , a flash, 24-70mm and a tele lens (one of the 70-200 lenses would be a safe choice but could blow your budget). 

Keep the 24-70L on the 5D Mark II and you should be able to go wide enough. The 16-35L is too wide for general use on full frame (you really want to cover 50mm). On the other hand, 24-70mm is normal to tele on APS-C. 

If she likes shooting with primes, this does become much more feasible if you have two bodies -- you can mount a prime on one body and a zoom on the other. If you do pick up a prime, I'd suggest the 135L.


----------



## D_Rochat (May 15, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> AF on 5D II is NOT that good...save your money for 5D III. Been there done that



They're shooting weddings not sports. The AF is just fine for that and the ISO performance of the 5D is far better than the 7D's. 

I believe he also said they are looking at zooms, not primes.


----------



## Dylan777 (May 15, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > AF on 5D II is NOT that good...save your money for 5D III. Been there done that
> ...



Have you ever use 5D II before?? AF in low light is a challenge. Canon 17-55mm f2.8 IS is one of the BEST EF-S zoom lens out there. With crop sensor, I'll take this lens over 24-105L or even 24-70 mrk I.


----------



## briansquibb (May 15, 2012)

24-70 and 70-200 f/2.8 II

Body is sufficient - good glass is paramount


----------



## darryl (May 15, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > AF on 5D II is NOT that good...save your money for 5D III. Been there done that
> ...



The only reason I suggested zooms and not primes is that my wife is experienced but shes not a 5 year vet like most of you guys are. Zoom with feet is a learned trait and I think for the time being zoom lenses might be best. I think getting a prime or two and throwing them into the mix is a good way to get practice but I would be nervous just having primes only.

So it sounds like 5D mark II is the way to go. I think the 24-70 is what alot of people are suggesting. What do you guys think about the 24-70 markII? Probably going to cost alot. And I'm not sure when it will become available.


----------



## briansquibb (May 15, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> Have you ever use 5D II before?? AF in low light is a challenge. Canon 17-55mm f2.8 IS is one of the BEST EF-S zoom lens out there. With crop sensor, I'll take this lens over 24-105L or even 24-70 mrk I.



Low light on a 5DII is class leading. 

To not get focus it has to be nearly dark and the surface single colour with no contrast


----------



## agierke (May 15, 2012)

let it all ride on black and then start a post about having 8k to spend and not know what to do with it.


----------



## EOBeav (May 16, 2012)

agierke said:


> let it all ride on black and then start a post about having 8k to spend and not know what to do with it.



+1 ;D


----------



## D_Rochat (May 16, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> D_Rochat said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



The prime vs. zoom wasn't directed at you.


----------



## elflord (May 16, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> Have you ever use 5D II before?? AF in low light is a challenge. Canon 17-55mm f2.8 IS is one of the BEST EF-S zoom lens out there. With crop sensor, I'll take this lens over 24-105L or even 24-70 mrk I.



I own a 5DII. One shot AF with the center point works very well. Outer points don't work quite as well in low light but I can still get them to work in less than perfect light. I always use one shot with a single point (I don't see why you'd want any other AF setting if you're shooting at large apertures)


----------



## prestonpalmer (May 16, 2012)

put it in savings!


----------



## D_Rochat (May 16, 2012)

prestonpalmer said:


> put it in savings!



That's no fun! Besides, the gear he wants to purchase is an investment.


----------



## elflord (May 16, 2012)

darryl said:


> The only reason I suggested zooms and not primes is that my wife is experienced but shes not a 5 year vet like most of you guys are. Zoom with feet is a learned trait and I think for the time being zoom lenses might be best. I think getting a prime or two and throwing them into the mix is a good way to get practice but I would be nervous just having primes only.
> 
> So it sounds like 5D mark II is the way to go. I think the 24-70 is what alot of people are suggesting. What do you guys think about the 24-70 markII? Probably going to cost alot. And I'm not sure when it will become available.



You will blow your budget very quickly if you get the MkII.

One question -- since she is the one who actually has the expertise in operating the gear, why isn't she the one doing the shopping for it ? You can get some generic recommendations / advice on a forum about what other people think would work, but ultimately it's going to boil down to what she prefers to shoot with. 

Regarding "zooming with feet" -- there's no such thing. Zooming and moving are different things -- zooming changes perspective, moving your feet changes your position. You need to get into the right position whether or not you are using a zoom lens. What a zoom buys you is that you can very quickly snap a wide shot and then a portrait without having to change lenses or bodies.


----------



## darryl (May 16, 2012)

elflord said:


> darryl said:
> 
> 
> > The only reason I suggested zooms and not primes is that my wife is experienced but shes not a 5 year vet like most of you guys are. Zoom with feet is a learned trait and I think for the time being zoom lenses might be best. I think getting a prime or two and throwing them into the mix is a good way to get practice but I would be nervous just having primes only.
> ...



We both operate the gear she just uses it more. While she understands majority of things regarding lenses and bodies (aperture, dof, iso, shutter speed..ect ect) the little things like chromatic abberations, vingette, IQ, peoples personal testimonies, the math...ect ect bores her to tears. I enjoy looking things up comparing items, seeing what is the best value for my money. Her expertise is limited to handling the gear we have and handling a few other lenses a professional wedding photographer let her use when she helped shoot a wedding for her. If she had extensive experience with various lenses I'm sure she would be telling me what to buy but for now I'm the research and purchase guy.

While I agree with your comment about having to be in the right position, some wedding moments happen quickly and to be able to zoom in and frame it before the moment is lost is priceless. Part of learning how to shoot weddings has to do with being in the right position I would imagine. Zooms allows some wiggle room there.


----------



## lonelywhitelights (May 16, 2012)

5D mark II is the obvious and best option since the camera is pretty damn excellent (as every knows already)

the 16-35 is a great lens but you'll get MUCH more use out of a 24-70 and 70-200

the lenses are the most important thing here (though the full frame body helps a great deal), your lenses will out live your camera body since you'll want to upgrade to a 5D3 in a year or so


----------



## AJ (May 16, 2012)

elflord said:


> Regarding "zooming with feet" -- there's no such thing. Zooming and moving are different things -- zooming changes perspective, moving your feet changes your position. You need to get into the right position whether or not you are using a zoom lens. What a zoom buys you is that you can very quickly snap a wide shot and then a portrait without having to change lenses or bodies.


Yes indeed.

The other thing is that "zooming with the feet" is very disruptive during the wedding ceremony, reception speeches, etc. Primes have their place, but for weddings you need a standard zoom.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (May 16, 2012)

cayenne said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > For weddings, a 5D MK II might be a good choice. Often, you can't use a flash, and you need not only low light capabilities found in full frasme bodies, but the 5D MK II's ability to focus in low light. I'd only use the center point with this camera, but the center point is very good.
> ...


 
If Canon does business in your state, they are required to charge sales tax in the amount your state levies. Otherwise, you are required to report and pay it, so either way, you are required to pay any sales taxes due.


----------



## cayenne (May 16, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...



I thought it was more that if Canon had a brick and mortar presence in your state...that they had to pay. I don't know of any canon stores, or warehouses, etc....in many states?

LOL...yes, I know that most states have a 'use' tax...but seriously, how many people know about that one, much less pays it if they do? That's why most people order online.


----------



## seandiggy (May 25, 2012)

This is what I would do:

5DII used ($1,800)
135 f/2.0 new ($1,100) no one sells these used, top 5 lens of all time
35 1.4L used ($1,200)
85 1.8 ($400), IMO 95% the lens of the 85 1.2L and lighter, cheaper, and faster to focus.

If you need a '50' throw the 35 on your 60D, likewise if you need a '200' throw the 135 on your 60D.

focal lengths covered, 35,50,85,135,200.

If you MUST buy a zoom, only get the 70-200 2.8 II, don't compromise on the mark I or the f/4 you'll regret it.

If you don't like the 135 because of lack of IS, I doubt you will, the lens is phenomenal. Sell it for 95% of what you paid for it in 2 years.

Use flash sparingly with a $30 off hot shoe ETTL cord.

Boom goes the dynamite.


----------



## stilscream (May 27, 2012)

Personally, depending on how much gear you have already:
None: 
T2i $450 used each
580 ex ii $350 used
35L 1.4 $1300 used or 24-70 f2.8 $1200 used
Later, I'd upgrade to 5d mk iii for low light ability.

Lens collector:
5d mk iii $3250 refurbs on eBay
50 f1.4 $300


----------



## RLPhoto (May 28, 2012)

Easy, 4K is plenty.

100mm F/2 - 500$

24mm 1.4L II - 1500$

5DC - 700$ (or the mkII if you can afford it.)

1x 580 EX II - 500$

Total - 3200$ more or less.

Ditch the 18-135MM, Kinda slow for weddings.


----------

