# Canon EOS 90D promotional video appears to have leaked



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 19, 2019)

> It looks like an official promotional video for the upcoming Canon EOS 90D has leaked.
> *There are the specifications from the video:*
> 
> 32.5mp APS-C Sensor
> ...



Continue reading...


----------



## nostrovia (Aug 19, 2019)

No mention of IBIS, Dual Digic, Dual SD, or 4K60 per the previous rumor. Still a significant upgrade from my 70D.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 19, 2019)

So what's the over/under on whether 4K is full sensor or not? I say not.


----------



## neilfisher (Aug 19, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> So what's the over/under on whether 4K is full sensor or not? I say not.


Considering it's full sensor on the M6mkII, it'll likely also be full sensor on the 90D...? Just guessing.


----------



## amorse (Aug 19, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> So what's the over/under on whether 4K is full sensor or not? I say not.


I'm betting full sensor. This screen capture shows 120 is cropped, but it doesn't say that for 4K (see the *2/*3):


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 19, 2019)

amorse said:


> I'm betting full sensor. This screen capture shows 120 is cropped, but it doesn't say that for 4K (see the *2/*3):
> View attachment 186056


Yeah, but what's the "through image processing" bit about?


----------



## amorse (Aug 19, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> Yeah, but what's the "through image processing" bit about?


Yea, that caught my eye too. No idea!


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 19, 2019)

amorse said:


> Yea, that caught my eye too. No idea!


The M6 II has the same note in it's video. That doesn't sound like it's full sensor readout downscaled "4K".

The M6 II doesn't have a note about a FOV crop for 120fps FHD. The RAW Burst shooting feature of the M6 II seems to be missing from the 90D also.


----------



## Tom W (Aug 19, 2019)

Looks like a pretty nice package overall. Interesting...


----------



## Tangent (Aug 19, 2019)

For me the big remaining question is sensor architecture and DR. Since they're not touting new and improved sensor technology on these splash videos my guess is that it's the old sensor tech with a MP bump. Same DR, more or less, is the way it would seem... We'll see....

These are very nice evolutionary upgrades, but I had hoped for kaikaku, not mere kaizen.


----------



## codynpatterson (Aug 19, 2019)

Doesn't seem like a significant upgrade from my 80D. 4k60 no crop on APSC would finally out it in competition with the A6500 and GH9 not sure why they leave things like 4k60 and ibis out on a camera that's so far behind in tech today.


----------



## Meatcurry (Aug 19, 2019)

Joystick!!


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 19, 2019)

Tom W said:


> Looks like a pretty nice package overall. Interesting...


This is how all new Canon cameras seem to start out these days. They look quite promising at first glance, but unfortunately the more you find out about the specific details the more your interest wanes. The G7X III is a perfect case in point.


----------



## rbielefeld (Aug 19, 2019)

A snip from the 90D video. Does the statement "During viewfinder shooting (AF fixed/tracking)" mean that when looking through the optical viewfinder and shooting at the high rate of 10 fps the AF is fixed; as in you have no AF available when shooting stills at 10fps? Please tell me I am reading this incorrectly.


----------



## bitcars (Aug 19, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> A snip from the 90D video. Does the statement "During viewfinder shooting (AF fixed/tracking)" mean that when looking through the optical viewfinder and shooting at the high rate of 10 fps the AF is fixed; as in you have no AF available when shooting stills at 10fps? Please tell me I am reading this incorrectly.


I'd like to think that means AF fixed *or *tracking mode both gets 10 fps when using the viewfinder, which is not a new tech by any means.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 19, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> The M6 II has the same note in it's video. That doesn't sound like it's full sensor readout downscaled "4K".



You can't do full sensor readout of a 32mp sensor and generate 4k frames without image processing. If they were grabbing 4k frames directly it would have to be from a crop. The note may therefore mean the opposite of what you imagine.


----------



## nostrovia (Aug 19, 2019)

bitcars said:


> I'd like to think that means AF fixed *or *tracking mode both gets 10 fps when using the viewfinder, which is not a new tech by any means.



I thought that too - 10FPS fixed and "normal" servo tracking, but not eye AF.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 19, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> A snip from the 90D video. Does the statement "During viewfinder shooting (AF fixed/tracking)" mean that when looking through the optical viewfinder and shooting at the high rate of 10 fps the AF is fixed; as in you have no AF available when shooting stills at 10fps? Please tell me I am reading this incorrectly.


You should read it as however is more restrictive / less useful to an end user.


----------



## Sharlin (Aug 19, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> This is how all new Canon cameras seem to start out these days. They look quite promising at first glance, but unfortunately the more you find out about the specific details the more your interest wanes. The G7X III is a perfect case in point.



And yet when people actually get to use Canon bodies, not just argue about spec sheets on the internet, they are almost universally considered great cameras and better than the sum of their parts.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 19, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> You can't do full sensor readout of a 32mp sensor and generate 4k frames without image processing. If they were grabbing 4k frames directly it would have to be from a crop. The note may therefore mean the opposite of what you imagine.


So why is the note not mentioned for FHD? The same thing you describe would be the case for FHD video, but there is no * in the video for those with that explanation.


----------



## Sharlin (Aug 19, 2019)

nostrovia said:


> I thought that too - 10FPS fixed and "normal" servo tracking, but not eye AF.



Well, there's no eye AF in viewfinder shooting. The 220kpix metering sensor is the second largest in any Canon DSLR ever, though.


----------



## Joules (Aug 19, 2019)

codynpatterson said:


> Doesn't seem like a significant upgrade from my 80D. 4k60 no crop on APSC would finally out it in competition with the A6500 and GH9 not sure why they leave things like 4k60 and ibis out on a camera that's so far behind in tech today.


I don't know, looks like a gigantic update over an 80D. 42% more FPS, 30% more resolution, more AF features, better wheather sealing and a joystick... I would not be surprised if the sensor quality makes a good jump as well. I just got my 80D 1,5 years ago... Since this new 90D will likely jump up in price as well I'm not upgrading. But only because I just got the 80D.


----------



## bitcars (Aug 19, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Well, there's no eye AF in viewfinder shooting. The 220kpix metering sensor is the second largest in any Canon DSLR ever, though.



I thought the first thing they are showing is some kind of face detection AF from the viewfinder, seems quite fancy. Or am I just reading it wrong perhaps.  They call it the iTR (Intelligent Tracking and Recognition) AF with face detection. Seems promising but speed is unknown, definitely not 10FPS.

(edited)


----------



## bsbeamer (Aug 19, 2019)

Have two 70D bodies that I use for some corporate work in addition to 5D4's. This might be enough of an upgrade to sell those two 70D's and pickup one or two 90D depending on the price.

Assume LPE6/LPE6N batteries?


----------



## justawriter (Aug 19, 2019)

So better connectivity, more pixels, and tilty-flippy screen over the 7DMII, plus AF enhancements. It will be interesting to see how 7D series users react to it. (I'm at least three years from replacing any of my current cameras, so I am just going to sit back and watch the show.)


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 19, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> So why is the note not mentioned for FHD? The same thing you describe would be the case for FHD video, but there is no * in the video for those with that explanation.



FHD isn't mentioned at all except with respect to 120p/100p where the note is: "AF fixed when shooting. The angle of view becomes narrower." This is in the exact same section as the "through image processing" note on 4k (bullet points 2 and 3).

You could be right (which would be a huge disappointment). But I would think the language would be the same for both bullet points if 4k was cropped like 120p/100p FHD is.


----------



## PRINZMETAL (Aug 19, 2019)

Eye af tracking I bet is in live view!!!!!...maybe This is not a mirrorless camera!!!! If one wants a mirrorless canon camera then one gets a M or a R/RP not a D90. My guess this camera was on the drawing boards before camera sales took a nose dive and the investment dollars was insignificant....bp


----------



## Joules (Aug 19, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Well, there's no eye AF in viewfinder shooting. The 220kpix metering sensor is the second largest in any Canon DSLR ever, though.


No eye AF. BUT at 48 seconds it says "EOS iTR AF (Face detection)". So you can get Face AF in the Viewfinder. That's pretty awesome already.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Aug 19, 2019)

nostrovia said:


> No mention of IBIS, Dual Digic, Dual SD, or 4K60 per the previous rumor. Still a significant upgrade from my 70D.



4K 60p was not really realistic expectation in my opinion. Let's hope for a good quality 4K with dual pixel AF


----------



## Viggo (Aug 19, 2019)

Joules said:


> No eye AF. BUT at 48 seconds it says "EOS iTR AF (Face detection)". So you can get Face AF in the Viewfinder. That's pretty awesome already.


1dx(2) also had this .


----------



## Viggo (Aug 19, 2019)

PRINZMETAL said:


> Eye af tracking I bet is in live view!!!!!...maybe This is not a mirrorless camera!!!! If one wants a mirrorless canon camera then one gets a M or a R/RP not a D90. My guess this camera was on the drawing boards before camera sales took a nose dive and the investment dollars was insignificant....bp


No one said it’s a mirrorless. It’s clearly stated having Optical Viewfinder.


----------



## Avenger 2.0 (Aug 19, 2019)

bitcars said:


> I thought the first thing they are showing is some kind of face detection AF from the viewfinder, seems quite fancy. Or am I just reading it wrong perhaps.


You are correct. I'm pretty sure they have figured out how to do face detection from the viewfinder. That slide shows image going to viewfinder & other sensor. That is probably why the joystick is also there (to change faces).


----------



## hazydave (Aug 19, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> So what's the over/under on whether 4K is full sensor or not? I say not.


It's a XXD, so APS-C sensor, is my bet. Full Frame has always been the XD series.


----------



## Sharlin (Aug 19, 2019)

Joules said:


> No eye AF. BUT at 48 seconds it says "EOS iTR AF (Face detection)". So you can get Face AF in the Viewfinder. That's pretty awesome already.



Yes, like the current higher-end Canon DSLRs. Although with any luck this version is improved from the 7D2, for example. The 80D with its much lower-res 7600-pixel metering sensor also has "skintone detection" but naturally it's less capable.



Avenger 2.0 said:


> You are correct. I'm pretty sure they have figured out how to do face detection from the viewfinder. That slide shows image going to viewfinder & other sensor. That is probably why the joystick is also there (to change faces).



This is not new; the >100kpix metering sensors in the 7D2, 5D4, 1DX, and 1DX2 can also track faces (as part of the more general "iTR" feature). Although being able to switch between detected faces would be a new feature. The joystick's primary purpose is certainly switching between AF points, just like other joystick-equipped Canon bodies.



DrToast said:


> Poor Sony. They will no longer be able to claim the APS-C mode on the A7r IV has higher resolution and than native APS-C bodies.



I'd wager they're soon going to lose the FF resolution crown as well.


----------



## DrToast (Aug 19, 2019)

Poor Sony. They will no longer be able to claim the APS-C mode on the A7r IV has higher resolution and than native APS-C bodies.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 19, 2019)

hazydave said:


> It's a XXD, so APS-C sensor, is my bet. Full Frame has always been the XD series.


You might want to re-read what you quoted a few times. The discussion is whether there's a crop in "4K", not the size of the sensor.


----------



## Avenger 2.0 (Aug 19, 2019)

Looks like 7D series is dead or might only be mirrorless version in future. No dual sd card slots unfortunately.


----------



## bitcars (Aug 19, 2019)

Viggo said:


> 1dx(2) also had this .



I thought it was new for 90D. Silly me.

Internet says:
Canon has introduced a new feature coined EOS iTR AF - *Intelligent Tracking and Recognition Auto Focus* on the Canon EOS-1D XDSLR.
EOS iTR AF is also now available (as of April, 2019) with the EOS 1D X Mark II, EOS 7D Mark II, EOS 5Ds/5Ds R, and EOS 5D Mark IV.

Hopefully it is a faster and better implementation in 90D.


----------



## EduPortas (Aug 19, 2019)

7D fanbase will have to wait. This is not a pro-spec body. Rather, a great update from the 70/80D.

Clear telltale signs this is *not* a 7DM2 substitute or merger: no dual card slots, single processing unit, and back wheel-control à la the middle tier 6DM2, not the beefier, heavier, 7DM2, 5DM4 and of course 1DX models (see image below).

Move along.


----------



## Tugela (Aug 19, 2019)

nostrovia said:


> No mention of IBIS, Dual Digic, Dual SD, or 4K60 per the previous rumor. Still a significant upgrade from my 70D.



Lol..so I called no 4K60 correctly on that original rumor then


----------



## 12Broncos (Aug 19, 2019)

I'll be so glad when the 90D is finally announced.


----------



## Sharlin (Aug 19, 2019)

EduPortas said:


> Clear telltale signs this is *not* a 7DM2 substitute or merger: no dual card slots, single processing unit, and back wheel-control à la the middle tier 6DM2, not the beefier, heavier, 7DM2, 5DM4 and of course 1DX models (see image below).



To be fair, you can't really fit a large back dial in a body that also has a tilty-flippy. But from the picture it appears that they _have_ enlarged it a bit. They have moved the groove you use to flip open the display to the top right, and it appears the display is also more flush with the rest of the back surface, which improves the ergonomics as well.


----------



## Tugela (Aug 19, 2019)

blackcoffee17 said:


> 4K 60p was not really realistic expectation in my opinion. Let's hope for a good quality 4K with dual pixel AF



It was predictable that it would be absent as soon as they said that it had a Digic 8 processor. If the R cameras can't do 4K60 then these will not be able to either.


----------



## BillB (Aug 19, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> So why is the note not mentioned for FHD? The same thing you describe would be the case for FHD video, but there is no * in the video for those with that explanation.


At a guess, 4K is a new feature so got an asterisk, FHD is same as before, so no asterisk


----------



## Sharlin (Aug 19, 2019)

Tugela said:


> Lol..so I called no 4K60 correctly on that original rumor then



Well, that wasn't exactly difficult call. But if the 4K really is just 30/25fps without 24fps option, I can already hear the angry screams...


----------



## Cryhavoc (Aug 19, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> A snip from the 90D video. Does the statement "During viewfinder shooting (AF fixed/tracking)" mean that when looking through the optical viewfinder and shooting at the high rate of 10 fps the AF is fixed; as in you have no AF available when shooting stills at 10fps? Please tell me I am reading this incorrectly.



this means 10fps with either fixed or servo tracking focus when shooting through the viewfinder
it would be less than 10fps when shooting in Live View is my take on this.


----------



## Tugela (Aug 19, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> A snip from the 90D video. Does the statement "During viewfinder shooting (AF fixed/tracking)" mean that when looking through the optical viewfinder and shooting at the high rate of 10 fps the AF is fixed; as in you have no AF available when shooting stills at 10fps? Please tell me I am reading this incorrectly.



It probably means that AF is fixed while shooting, in other words no dynamic AF, whatever point the camera was focused on initially stays the focus point.


----------



## Tugela (Aug 19, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Well, that wasn't exactly difficult call. But if the 4K really is just 30/25fps without 24fps option, I can already hear the angry screams...



Probably from the same people who say 60p is a must have. There is no satisfying them


----------



## Memirsbrunnr (Aug 19, 2019)

my big disappointment is that the 7D M2 focussing system is not there, but the 80d version. For the rest I am not unhappy


----------



## BillB (Aug 19, 2019)

Tugela said:


> It probably means that AF is fixed while shooting, in other words no dynamic AF, whatever point the camera was focused on initially stays the focus point.


Except when in servo


----------



## Sharlin (Aug 19, 2019)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> my big disappointment is that the 7D M2 focussing system is not there, but the 80d version. For the rest I am not unhappy



If the new higher-res metering sensor and full iTR significantly improves tracking, I'm totally fine with 45 points.


----------



## Lee Jay (Aug 19, 2019)

So, if there's no 7DII upgrade and if this is the last of the SLRs, I would have to choose between getting one of these and never buying anything else, or selling most things I have an "upgrading" (actually downgrading) to mirrorless full-frame.

The 24-70/2.8IS for the R's interests me, as does the 24-240. But I'd have to have a body with around 60-100MP so in crop mode it would be similar to the 90D (83.2MP would be equal). And I'd have to resign myself to tolerating an EVF.

That's a lot of money to spend to get something I don't really want, but the alternative is being stuck with unsupported hardware lines (EF, EF-s and EOS SLRs).


----------



## rbielefeld (Aug 19, 2019)

Tugela said:


> It probably means that AF is fixed while shooting, in other words no dynamic AF, whatever point the camera was focused on initially stays the focus point.


If this is the case, then there is no way this is a 7DII replacement. Continuous tracking AF is a necessity for an action camera body IMO.


----------



## flip314 (Aug 19, 2019)

I was attracted by the 10fps, until I realized that I never even shoot in high-speed continuous on my 80D (7fps), hahaha.

It looks like a good camera, but probably not compelling for 80D owners, then again the 80D is not that old. I'll still be looking at FF mirrorless options, and keeping my 80D as a second body.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Aug 19, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> If this is the case, then there is no way this is a 7DII replacement. Continuous tracking AF is a necessity for an action camera body IMO.



The 80D already has 7 fps with tracking, so 10 would not be such a big update.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Aug 19, 2019)

Question is how good is the new sensor. A serious resolution upgrade from the 80D.


----------



## rbielefeld (Aug 19, 2019)

blackcoffee17 said:


> The 80D already has 7 fps with tracking, so 10 would not be such a big update.


The issue is the 90D may not have tracking, but instead fixed AF when shooting 10fps, so whatever your focus point/plane was when you started a burst, that is where the AF stays. The AF does not actively track the subject in between frames. For me this would be a no go.


----------



## Canon1966 (Aug 19, 2019)

I guess no IBIS...looks nice otherwise....definitely kills the 7D2.


----------



## Lee Jay (Aug 19, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> The issue is the 90D may not have tracking, but instead fixed AF when shooting 10fps, ...



I seriously doubt that. If that were true, it wouldn't say "'/tracking".


----------



## rbielefeld (Aug 19, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> I seriously doubt that. If that were true, it wouldn't say "'/tracking".


I think and hope you are correct.


----------



## max_sr (Aug 19, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> Yeah, but what's the "through image processing" bit about?



2x2 pixelbinning from the full sensor width and then scaling up to UHD


----------



## Dantana (Aug 19, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> So, if there's no 7DII upgrade and if this is the last of the SLRs, I would have to choose between getting one of these and never buying anything else, or selling most things I have an "upgrading" (actually downgrading) to mirrorless full-frame.
> 
> The 24-70/2.8IS for the R's interests me, as does the 24-240. But I'd have to have a body with around 60-100MP so in crop mode it would be similar to the 90D (83.2MP would be equal). And I'd have to resign myself to tolerating an EVF.
> 
> That's a lot of money to spend to get something I don't really want, but the alternative is being stuck with unsupported hardware lines (EF, EF-s and EOS SLRs).



What are you lacking right this moment that would make you buy a new body? Not trying to be snarky, just curious.


----------



## Kharan (Aug 19, 2019)

I’m waiting to see what wonderful finishing touches they made with the Cripple Hammer. It looks too good* as it is now. If it’s nothing serious, I’ll be impressed.

*for current Canon standards.


----------



## Lee Jay (Aug 19, 2019)

Dantana said:


> What are you lacking right this moment that would make you buy a new body? Not trying to be snarky, just curious.



A second body, a higher-resolution sensor (for cropping when 600mm isn't enough), lower noise in the shadows and better video features.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Aug 19, 2019)

Canon1966 said:


> I guess no IBIS...looks nice otherwise....definitely kills the 7D2.



If there will be not 7D3, they could have used the 7D's 65 point AF system and dual card slots.


----------



## Dantana (Aug 19, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> A second body, a higher-resolution sensor (for cropping when 600mm isn't enough), lower noise in the shadows and better video features.


Why not a 5DIV as a second body? They compliment each other quite well it would seem.

But, fair enough. You know your needs.


----------



## Lee Jay (Aug 19, 2019)

Dantana said:


> Why not a 5DIV as a second body?



Because it has lower resolution (larger pixels) at the same focal length compared with my 7DII, much less the 90D. I'm often focal length limited even at 600mm.

I also have four crop-lenses (18-35/1.8, 10-18STM, 18-135nanoUSM, 55-250STM) and four full-frame lenses (8-15/4L, 50STM, 70-200/2.8L IS II, 150-600C).


----------



## Dantana (Aug 19, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Because it has lower resolution (larger pixels) at the same focal length compared with my 7DII, much less the 90D. I'm often focal length limited even at 600mm.
> 
> I also have four crop-lenses (18-35/1.8, 10-18STM, 18-135nanoUSM, 55-250STM) and four full-frame lenses (8-15/4L, 50STM, 70-200/2.8L IS II, 150-600C).


Makes sense. Here's hoping they put out something you can use.


----------



## Lurker (Aug 19, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> The issue is the 90D may not have tracking, but instead fixed AF when shooting 10fps, so whatever your focus point/plane was when you started a burst, that is where the AF stays. The AF does not actively track the subject in between frames. For me this would be a no go.



You passed right over Cryhavoc post (#46), which is most likely correct and took Tugela post (#47) to heart and now the sky is falling and Canon is *******. I would read the / as an or. A/B is the same as A or B but saves 3 key strokes.


----------



## hoodlum (Aug 19, 2019)

It looks like there is no 4k crop.


----------



## EduPortas (Aug 19, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> To be fair, you can't really fit a large back dial in a body that also has a tilty-flippy. But from the picture it appears that they _have_ enlarged it a bit. They have moved the groove you use to flip open the display to the top right, and it appears the display is also more flush with the rest of the back surface, which improves the ergonomics as well.



Great observation. That would indicate some variation for future, higher-end, models.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 19, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Because it has lower resolution (larger pixels) at the same focal length compared with my 7DII, much less the 90D. I'm often focal length limited even at 600mm.
> 
> I also have four crop-lenses (18-35/1.8, 10-18STM, 18-135nanoUSM, 55-250STM) and four full-frame lenses (8-15/4L, 50STM, 70-200/2.8L IS II, 150-600C).



Then get the 90D and stop worrying about the future. EF and EF-S lenses are not "unsupported", they work flawlessly on RF and EF-M mounts. It doesn't matter if this is the 'last of the DSLRs' (which I highly doubt) or if Canon ever releases another new EF lens. What matters is if it fits your needs right now.

It's going to be a very long time before there are RF versions of every EF lens, if that ever happens. And EF lenses have two advantages on RF (control ring adapter and filter adapter). New EF lenses are still being made and Black Magic just used the EF mount in a (stunning) cinema camera. So buy what works for you today.


----------



## RustyTheGeek (Aug 19, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> A snip from the 90D video. Does the statement "During viewfinder shooting (AF fixed/tracking)" mean that when looking through the optical viewfinder and shooting at the high rate of 10 fps the AF is fixed; as in you have no AF available when shooting stills at 10fps? Please tell me I am reading this incorrectly.


Ha ha - Maybe it means they finally 'fixed' the AF. Now it works at 10fps? LOL


----------



## criscokkat (Aug 19, 2019)

I'm a bit disappointed that it doesn't have AF expansion points. The particular type of action sports I shoot is problematic with tracking. Maybe the face part will help, I shoot BMX racing mostly and on my 80d I have to use zone, which can sometimes detect and focus on skin, sometimes not. In BMX racing most kids have full face helmets on so their faces are in shadow. Having it track that same point better with the AF expansion would have helped and was something I was hoping for. 

The eye detection will be nice however when taking more static lower speed subjects, even if I can't use the viewfinder. I am hoping having an actual joystick will be an improvement over the R series when selecting which eye even if I do have to use the flip screen to use it.


----------



## mpmark (Aug 19, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> A snip from the 90D video. Does the statement "During viewfinder shooting (AF fixed/tracking)" mean that when looking through the optical viewfinder and shooting at the high rate of 10 fps the AF is fixed; as in you have no AF available when shooting stills at 10fps? Please tell me I am reading this incorrectly.



for me it indicates fixed and tracking, that's usually what a "/" is for


----------



## navastronia (Aug 19, 2019)

mpmark said:


> for me it indicates fixed and tracking, that's usually what a "/" is for



Hope you're right!


----------



## Joules (Aug 20, 2019)

The YouTube comments to this are quite a mess. The snark in some peoples comments is unreal. Canon is so far ahead of everyone in terms of market share despite beeing behind in so many spec sheet areas. Having caught up in sensor read out speed will allow them to get video, AF capabilities and FPS much higher. They don't have to exceed the competition in these areas. So far, beeing behind was enough. So having caught up is quite a big deal in itself.

I can't wait to get some results for Dr and ISO.


----------



## tron (Aug 20, 2019)

Spot AF and Joystick! Mmmmm my 2 out of the 3 musts. Now if it has programmable buttons just like 7DII I will probably oversee the 45 (instead of 65) AF points 

EDIT: I just read above that it doesn't have AF expansion points


----------



## windsorc (Aug 20, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> And yet when people actually get to use Canon bodies, not just argue about spec sheets on the internet, they are almost universally considered great cameras and better than the sum of their parts.


Not sure I'd say universally and I'm pretty sure the RP isn't considered great, the 7d II wasn't great either, nor the 5d iv (from some users). Better than the sum of their parts is what you say when trying to find a reason to like something.


----------



## Sharlin (Aug 20, 2019)

windsorc said:


> Not sure I'd say universally and I'm pretty sure the RP isn't considered great, the 7d II wasn't great either, nor the 5d iv (from some users).



Clearly I must have missed the memo


----------



## unfocused (Aug 20, 2019)

justawriter said:


> So better connectivity, more pixels, and tilty-flippy screen over the 7DMII, plus AF enhancements. It will be interesting to see how 7D series users react to it. (I'm at least three years from replacing any of my current cameras, so I am just going to sit back and watch the show.)


Sample size of one says very interested. Waiting until it is actually released and reviews come in.


----------



## unfocused (Aug 20, 2019)

windsorc said:


> Not sure I'd say universally and I'm pretty sure the RP isn't considered great, the 7d II wasn't great either, nor the 5d iv (from some users). Better than the sum of their parts is what you say when trying to find a reason to like something.


I'm just curious, how many of these bodies that you are knocking do you actually own? Or, are you just trolling? 

I don't own the RP, but it's certainly great for its price. The 7DII was a great camera at the time of release and still holds its own against much newer bodies. The 5D IV is also a great camera.


----------



## Don Haines (Aug 20, 2019)

That is one great camera! It’s so good that we should start hearing the cries of “Canon is *******”


----------



## syder (Aug 20, 2019)

We have a bunch of ageing 70ds at work... This looks like a very worthwhile upgrade in terms of resolution, fps, AF, video and (assuming its no worse than the 80d) dr.


----------



## Lee Jay (Aug 20, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> I'm a bit disappointed that it doesn't have AF expansion points. The particular type of action sports I shoot is problematic with tracking.



Agreed. Center plus expansion is basically the only mode I use on my 7DII.


----------



## wsmith96 (Aug 20, 2019)

yawn


----------



## criscokkat (Aug 20, 2019)

tron said:


> Spot AF and Joystick! Mmmmm my 2 out of the 3 musts. Now if it has programmable buttons just like 7DII I will probably oversee the 45 (instead of 65) AF points
> 
> EDIT: I just read above that it doesn't have AF expansion points


I wrote that based on the screen shots of the focus mode icons. Theoretically you could have a custom setting that enables it whenever manual AF selection is chosen, but I’m not sure if they’d implement that. If they have lifted this from other systems it could be buried to go along with the simpler 80d type interface.


----------



## Bennymiata (Aug 20, 2019)

The connectivity is also very interesting.
If you can send photos and videos (?) to your phone or pc automatically, it will keep a lot of bloggers very happy.
I've been waiting for a replacement for my 70d and this new 90d seems a very good upgrade.


----------



## jvillain (Aug 20, 2019)

Bennymiata said:


> The connectivity is also very interesting.
> If you can send photos and videos (?) to your phone or pc automatically, it will keep a lot of bloggers very happy.
> I've been waiting for a replacement for my 70d and this new 90d seems a very good upgrade.


Sending photos to your phone is in the 80D so ya it has to be here.


----------



## SteB1 (Aug 20, 2019)

Tangent said:


> For me the big remaining question is sensor architecture and DR. Since they're not touting new and improved sensor technology on these splash videos my guess is that it's the old sensor tech with a MP bump. Same DR, more or less, is the way it would seem... We'll see....
> 
> These are very nice evolutionary upgrades, but I had hoped for kaikaku, not mere kaizen.


However, when Canon released the 80D and 1Dx mkII, which had much improved DR over previous Canon DSLRs, Canon made very little of it in their literature and promotional material. My guess as to the reason for this is that, firstly it would be acknowledging that DR matters, and previous Canon DSLRs, still in production at the time, were behind the times. Secondly, whilst the DR was much improved it was not class leading and a bit behind the opposition, so again not in Canon's interest to make too much of this. Therefore I don't believe you can read too much into this, because even if the DR was on par or even slightly better than all other APS-C cameras, highlighting it would put other Canon DSLRs, still in production, in less than good light. In other words, overall it's not in Canon's best interest to make too much about DR unless they were replacing the whole of their range with increased DR.


----------



## x-vision (Aug 20, 2019)

Congrats, CanonRumors!
You got it right on all accounts: the new 32mp sensor and the fact that the 90D will replace both the 80D and 7D.
Job well done.

With a new sensor, an AF joystick, and 10fps,the 90D is definitely a step up from the 80D (which I own and love). 
Should be a great camera.


----------



## Chaitanya (Aug 20, 2019)

Now will wait for confirmation of dual sd slots before pulling the plug. Overall impresaive camera.


----------



## c.d.embrey (Aug 20, 2019)

Very interesting—but I'd prefer a R-Crop. Even if I have to wait another year.


----------



## x-vision (Aug 20, 2019)

Avenger 2.0 said:


> Looks like 7D series is dead or might only be mirrorless version in future. No dual sd card slots unfortunately.


+1


----------



## SteB1 (Aug 20, 2019)

I think this pretty much confirms that there will be no 7D mkIII soon and that this is the stand in for it. The multi-controller and 10 fps tells us that. Likewise if it had IBIS, dual card slots or any of the other features hinted at in rumours, I think they'd have mentioned it in the video. The only thing we can't be certain of is the DR, or whether this is a Sony sensor, as it would not be in Canon's interest to make anything about this.

The big question is whether this is more or less the end of the line for DSLRs. It could very well be the last DSLR in this category. However, it's interesting that Canon are producing an EVF for the M6, which tends to suggest no more APS-C M cameras with viewfinders for a while.


----------



## SteB1 (Aug 20, 2019)

c.d.embrey said:


> Very interesting—but I'd prefer a R-Crop. Even if I have to wait another year.


I think there might be one, even if not right away. Canon seem to have introduced the 90D as a stop gap for the lack of a 7D mkIII, but this doesn't mean that Canon won't produce an R version of it. If Canon are going to bring out new RF long lenses, this could create a niche for an APS-C R camera for reach.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Aug 20, 2019)

In fact it looks closer to 7DII than to 80D. Joystick, weather sealing, optical viewfinder, improved AF - what else do wildlifers need?
But for me, the most interesting question is the sensor specs and DR. Also, does it have an AA filter?

Most likely it'll gave the same sensor as the new M6II. I'm not into 90D but I might be interested in M6II as a hiking landscape camera, the question is, is this sensor any close to 5DIV?


----------



## Durf (Aug 20, 2019)

I think it'll be a great camera. The 80D is a excellent camera and the 90D looks to be better. I'm in no hurry to replace my 80D but I can see myself shooting with a 90D in a year or two from now....


----------



## Diltiazem (Aug 20, 2019)

It may still have two processors, not just two Digic 8.


----------



## codynpatterson (Aug 20, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Yes, like the current higher-end Canon DSLRs. Although with any luck this version is improved from the 7D2, for example. The 80D with its much lower-res 7600-pixel metering sensor also has "skintone detection" but naturally it's less capable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The 80D already has face detection, that isn't just a 7dii thing.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 20, 2019)

SteB1 said:


> The only thing we can't be certain of is the DR, or whether this is a Sony sensor, as it would not be in Canon's interest to make anything about this.



It's DPAF which means it's almost guaranteed to be a Canon sensor with Canon's dual pixel tech.


----------



## unfocused (Aug 20, 2019)

SteB1 said:


> However, when Canon released the 80D and 1Dx mkII, which had much improved DR over previous Canon DSLRs, Canon made very little of it in their literature and promotional material. My guess as to the reason for this is that, firstly it would be acknowledging that DR matters, and previous Canon DSLRs, still in production at the time, were behind the times. Secondly, whilst the DR was much improved it was not class leading and a bit behind the opposition, so again not in Canon's interest to make too much of this. Therefore I don't believe you can read too much into this, because even if the DR was on par or even slightly better than all other APS-C cameras, highlighting it would put other Canon DSLRs, still in production, in less than good light. In other words, overall it's not in Canon's best interest to make too much about DR unless they were replacing the whole of their range with increased DR.


Or...they know that actual camera buyers don't give a rat's behind about Dynamic Range, so why highlight it in a promotional video.


----------



## ashmadux (Aug 20, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> And yet when people actually get to use Canon bodies, not just argue about spec sheets on the internet, they are almost universally considered great cameras and better than the sum of their parts.



SOrry, that train stopped with the 5d3. It's been a while since...a* LONG* while.


----------



## unfocused (Aug 20, 2019)

ashmadux said:


> SOrry, that train stopped with the 5d3. It's been a while since...a* LONG* while.


Umm...No.


----------



## unfocused (Aug 20, 2019)

Assuming someone at Canon Australia jumped the gun, I'm wondering when the official announcements will take place.

Also wondering when we will see the 83 mp EOS-R s.


----------



## ashmadux (Aug 20, 2019)

Kharan said:


> *I’m waiting to see what wonderful finishing touches they made with the Cripple Hammer. *It looks too good* as it is now. If it’s nothing serious, I’ll be impressed.
> 
> *for current Canon standards.



*Dear lord, LOLOLOLOLOL. *

Not only does the devil lie in the details, demons and the lords of hell are in there also. Thier only job is to make propsective canon buyers say, OH NO, NOT BUYING THAT'. The cripple master lords must be satisfied. 

After using a M series for the last three years, there's no longer a need for a full size crop for me. If its big, make it FF (or small FF!). If not....See ya


----------



## ashmadux (Aug 20, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Clearly I must have missed the memo



You did., 5d4 notwithstanding


----------



## Chaitanya (Aug 20, 2019)

Meatcurry said:


> Joystick!!


Yep, where is Neuro who had been trolling about lack of space in X0D sized bodies for joystick. While now this camera which is same sized as 80D has a joystick.


----------



## David - Sydney (Aug 20, 2019)

So the solution to dual cards is single card + wireless transfer to phone? Any idea about the buffer wireless transfer speed or does the wireless transfer go from the card itself in the background so not slowing down the buffer to the card?


----------



## Chaitanya (Aug 20, 2019)

Kharan said:


> I’m waiting to see what wonderful finishing touches they made with the Cripple Hammer. It looks too good* as it is now. If it’s nothing serious, I’ll be impressed.
> 
> *for current Canon standards.


Probably still comes with AA filter, single card slot , no 24 fps option for video and 10fps with Ae/af lock not dynamic tracking.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Aug 20, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> FHD isn't mentioned at all except with respect to 120p/100p where the note is: "AF fixed when shooting. The angle of view becomes narrower." This is in the exact same section as the "through image processing" note on 4k (bullet points 2 and 3).
> 
> You could be right (which would be a huge disappointment). But I would think the language would be the same for both bullet points if 4k was cropped like 120p/100p FHD is.



Think of it this way. 4K @ 30fps requires same read speed as 1080p @ 120fps, if they can't do the latter without heavy crop they can't do the former either. Given the price of this camera I doubt we can expect 4K to be taken from either full sensor readout with binning or even 6K crop with downsampling. It's a worry they say 1080p @ 120fps has smaller angle of view, but how large a crop they will use is unknown.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Aug 20, 2019)

So far this would be a D7500 killer if performance matches specs. I would like to see how it could stack up against my D500 for BIF, as that camera is noticeably better than any of my Canon's overall including 1DX. If it can do AF with all points @ f/8 and could match my 5D4 I might get one. But let's see if it can best the 7DII first.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Aug 20, 2019)

Tugela said:


> It was predictable that it would be absent as soon as they said that it had a Digic 8 processor. If the R cameras can't do 4K60 then these will not be able to either.


Canon sensors outside the 1DXII have far too slow a sensor read speed to handle 4K 60p and that still requires large crop. Even 4K @30p requires huge crop to read the data fast enough. Given heat issues and pricepoint of 90D/M6II expecting 4K 60p is too much, not even Sony A9 can offer that.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 20, 2019)

Mr Majestyk said:


> Canon sensors outside the 1DXII have far too slow a sensor read speed to handle 4K 60p and that still requires large crop. Even 4K @30p requires huge crop to read the data fast enough. Given heat issues and pricepoint of 90D/M6II expecting 4K 60p is too much, not even Sony A9 can offer that.


Remember 10 years ago when Canon was at the forefront of video in ILCs (DSLRs)? The 7D and 5D2 were cutting edge, class leading, ahead of everyone else products at the time. Those days are long gone for Canon. Now Canon has a line of Cinema cameras to protect, so they're happy to afflict their ILC lineups with the cripple hammer when it comes to video features. The only question is whether Canon has learned anything and changed their way a bit or if they're the same old Canon. I guess we'll find out more once the full details are released on the 90D and the M6 II. The recent G5X II and G7X III are not good foreshadowing though.


----------



## Diltiazem (Aug 20, 2019)

Fun speculating. 
What do you folks think about 60p?
I think it will be cropped 4K with DPAF.


----------



## canonnews (Aug 20, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> It's DPAF which means it's almost guaranteed to be a Canon sensor with Canon's dual pixel tech.


It's a canon sensor.


----------



## Chaitanya (Aug 20, 2019)

Diltiazem said:


> Fun speculating.
> What do you folks think about 60p?
> I think it will be cropped 4K with DPAF.


I have said before, I really dont mind cropped video as long as it is sharp and has little to no rolling shutter. For shooting behavioural videos of small insects and frogs that extra reach from cropped video is really useful.


----------



## -pekr- (Aug 20, 2019)

Looks like a nice upgrade to 80D, let alone our 70D. It all boils down to the question - does it use new sensor generation tech and eventually sports IBIS? If not, we will gladly pass on. Well, I am eventually already decided to accompany our 5DIV with 6D II, just becaue .... looks retro, is small, can go to various travels more easily and eventually, can be a backup / second shooter (bts) during the weddings. If M6II does not have IBIS either, it will be dissapointing too, but well, we will see - so far we are doing all our work without IBIS, so ...


----------



## Kharan (Aug 20, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Probably still comes with AA filter, single card slot , no 24 fps option for video and 10fps with Ae/af lock not dynamic tracking.



I can live with the filter and single card slot, and also with a fully-usable 8 FPS burst. But the omission of 24p is too much. It feels as if they were spiting me. The hardware can support it, so *WHY!?*
I also think there must be some other nasties lying in wait in the technical specs.


----------



## Antono Refa (Aug 20, 2019)

nostrovia said:


> No mention of IBIS, Dual Digic, Dual SD, or 4K60 per the previous rumor. Still a significant upgrade from my 70D.



I take the "card slot" note to mean the 90D will not have dual SD.


----------



## KenSoftTH (Aug 20, 2019)

Canon Australia seems to leak the full spec sheet for a few minutes. I saved it here.


----------



## gregster (Aug 20, 2019)

KenSoftTH said:


> Canon Australia seems to leak the full spec sheet for a few minutes. I saved it here.



Some interesting specs:



> The EOS 90D shoots a fast 10 frames per second continuous shooting with full auto focus tracking.
> 4K (3840 x 2160) Uncropped/Cropped 29.97 fps
> Full HD (1920 x 1080) 119.88 fps
> 1/16000 shutter
> LP-E6N



Given Australia is a day ahead of NA, perhaps the release is imminent and they posted only a day too soon?


----------



## Bennymiata (Aug 20, 2019)

And I bet someone at Canon Oz is getting his knuckles rapped.
I'll wait until I see Rudi from Canon US give his spiel on the B and H site.


----------



## jvillain (Aug 20, 2019)

Shutter speed up to1/16000 the 80D was 1/8000. Useful wnen shooting in daylight wide open. 
Integrated Speedlite Transmitter
*&%$$*(*%)(^[email protected]$%^&*(() CR3 files. ..!.. Canon. If you shoot RAW make sure yer software will support CR3. Most still don't.
6960 x 4640 what would be the FF equivelant?
No LOG
SD, SDHC or SDXC (UHS-II) card


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 20, 2019)

jvillain said:


> 6960 x 4640 what would be the FF equivelant?



11,236 x 7,474 for nearly 84mp (83.97).


----------



## Avenger 2.0 (Aug 20, 2019)

David - Sydney said:


> So the solution to dual cards is single card + wireless transfer to phone? Any idea about the buffer wireless transfer speed or does the wireless transfer go from the card itself in the background so not slowing down the buffer to the card?


Good luck with that. You just know this is going to fail at a critical moment. Better just rely on 1 card and pray it doesn't fail or buy a camera that has two.


----------



## KenSoftTH (Aug 20, 2019)

Personally, I will wait for 7d mark iii if it's exist. I still love 65 points AF on my 7D2 and dual card slot. Don't wanna risk life on one SD card.


----------



## Sharlin (Aug 20, 2019)

ashmadux said:


> You did., 5d4 notwithstanding



The 80D is a prime example. And saying that the 7D2 is not a great camera is ridiculous.


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Aug 20, 2019)

Going on 7 pages in this thread and no significant crippling detected from the Sony fangirls. You love to see it.


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Aug 20, 2019)

So it's even faster in Live View mode, 11FPS! And that's with AI Servo AF naturally, unlike the weird suspicions of some who think the AF is fixed at that framerate.


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Aug 20, 2019)

I think I now know why the Sony fangirls are in meltdown in the other forums, this model & the M6 Mark II would only just increase Canon's marketshare even further, all they had to do was match the specs of the other brands and exceed them in some aspects, who would have thought...


----------



## Diltiazem (Aug 20, 2019)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> So it's even faster in Live View mode, 11FPS! And that's with AI Servo AF naturally, unlike the weird suspicions of some who think the AF is fixed at that framerate.
> View attachment 186065
> View attachment 186066


You beat me. I was just going to post this.


----------



## degos (Aug 20, 2019)

KenSoftTH said:


> Canon Australia seems to leak the full spec sheet for a few minutes. I saved it here.



1/16000th shutter speed is a surprise. What was the last Canon camera to offer that, the original 1D?


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Aug 20, 2019)

degos said:


> 1/16000th shutter speed is a surprise. What was the last Canon camera to offer that, the original 1D?


Well 1D had a CCD sensor (by Panasonic) so sensor could be cleared faster than CMOS. Is the 90D's 1/16000 e-shutter or mechanical or both?


----------



## whothafunk (Aug 20, 2019)

KenSoftTH said:


> Personally, I will wait for 7d mark iii if it's exist. I still love 65 points AF on my 7D2 and dual card slot. Don't wanna risk life on one SD card.


Never in my life as a photographer doing regular sports events to redbull events, weddings and olympic activities I had a fail on a card, whether it was a 550D, 70D, 7D2, 5D4, 1DX or 1DX2. I know it happens, but people keep panicking where they dont have to. No disrespect to you, but with 7D2, I am guessing you arent really a professional photographer, so your concern about single card slot is even less understandable. 

45/65 points.. makes little difference. More important are the AF capabilities, which aren't connected with number of points. This is where 7D2 should shine compared to 80D/90D, but I, and many other on this board and dpreview had apparently shit experience with 7D2's AF. It just wasn't as good as it was promoted, the older 1DX with its fewer AF points still smokes it out of the water.


----------



## RickWagoner (Aug 20, 2019)

a 0D finally got a single spot AF option....birders rejoice! Question is how large is the buffer?


----------



## Aussie shooter (Aug 20, 2019)

whothafunk said:


> Never in my life as a photographer doing regular sports events to redbull events, weddings and olympic activities I had a fail on a card, whether it was a 550D, 70D, 7D2, 5D4, 1DX or 1DX2. I know it happens, but people keep panicking where they dont have to. No disrespect to you, but with 7D2, I am guessing you arent really a professional photographer, so your concern about single card slot is even less understandable.
> 
> 45/65 points.. makes little difference. More important are the AF capabilities, which aren't connected with number of points. This is where 7D2 should shine compared to 80D/90D, but I, and many other on this board and dpreview had apparently shit experience with 7D2's AF. It just wasn't as good as it was promoted, the older 1DX with its fewer AF points still smokes it out of the water.


You are wrong on much of that. Cards do fail. Rarely, but it happens. I have had one fail on me. Luckily it was in a 7d2 and I record images to both cards because it contained one of my best images from a trip to the Galapagos. A trip I spent a lot of money on and one which I doubt I will ever get to do again. And plenty of pros use the 7d2. It is a pro camera through and through. Agree that the 45v 65 af points is not too big an issue as long as the AF is good.


----------



## KenSoftTH (Aug 20, 2019)

whothafunk said:


> Never in my life as a photographer doing regular sports events to redbull events, weddings and olympic activities I had a fail on a card, whether it was a 550D, 70D, 7D2, 5D4, 1DX or 1DX2. I know it happens, but people keep panicking where they dont have to. No disrespect to you, but with 7D2, I am guessing you arent really a professional photographer, so your concern about single card slot is even less understandable.
> 
> 45/65 points.. makes little difference. More important are the AF capabilities, which aren't connected with number of points. This is where 7D2 should shine compared to 80D/90D, but I, and many other on this board and dpreview had apparently shit experience with 7D2's AF. It just wasn't as good as it was promoted, the older 1DX with its fewer AF points still smokes it out of the water.



I would agree that my 7d2 AF miss a lot of the time. I never have a card fail too, but i ran into several hard drive fail. So, dual slot kind of make a peace of mind when you formatting a card, knowing that u have another backup.


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Aug 20, 2019)

bitcars said:


> I'd like to think that means AF fixed *or *tracking mode both gets 10 fps when using the viewfinder, which is not a new tech by any means.


Don’t know why people are even questioning this tbh


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Aug 20, 2019)

Mr Majestyk said:


> Well 1D had a CCD sensor (by Panasonic) so sensor could be cleared faster than CMOS. Is the 90D's 1/16000 e-shutter or mechanical or both?





I see no asterisks or any other express/implied limitation, 1/16000 top SS is mechanically-achievable given the physically smaller & lighter shutter curtains needed to cover an APS-C sensor. I think Canon can even do a 1/300 mechanical X-Sync in this body if they wanted to.


----------



## Proscribo (Aug 20, 2019)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> 1/16000 top SS is mechanically-achievable given the physically shorter distance the shutter curtains need to travel in front of an APS-C sensor. I think Canon can even do a 1/300 mechanical X-


The travelled distance doesn't directly affect the shortest exposure time as it is achieved by first curtain opening and the second closing at the same time (at which point they can travel closely as long as necessary). It's more about how accurately they travel.

Flash sync could be achieved at higher speeds, yes.


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Aug 20, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> If this is the case, then there is no way this is a 7DII replacement. Continuous tracking AF is a necessity for an action camera body IMO.


Come on people! Of course it’s going to have continuous tracking!


----------



## Diltiazem (Aug 20, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Come on people! Of course it’s going to have continuous tracking!


 It is in servo AF (continuous tracking). 









EOS 90D Tech Sheet.pdf







drive.google.com


----------



## Avenger 2.0 (Aug 20, 2019)

whothafunk said:


> Never in my life as a photographer doing regular sports events to redbull events, weddings and olympic activities I had a fail on a card, whether it was a 550D, 70D, 7D2, 5D4, 1DX or 1DX2. I know it happens, but people keep panicking where they dont have to. No disrespect to you, but with 7D2, I am guessing you arent really a professional photographer, so your concern about single card slot is even less understandable.
> 
> 45/65 points.. makes little difference. More important are the AF capabilities, which aren't connected with number of points. This is where 7D2 should shine compared to 80D/90D, but I, and many other on this board and dpreview had apparently shit experience with 7D2's AF. It just wasn't as good as it was promoted, the older 1DX with its fewer AF points still smokes it out of the water.


Good for you. Just tell that to the wedding couple the first time you do get a card failure. Sorry, lost your wedding, but don't worry, the chance of it happening again is very slim.


----------



## rosstcorbett (Aug 20, 2019)

Excited to see the 120fps. I'm confused though, is this with Autofocus?


----------



## max_sr (Aug 20, 2019)

rosstcorbett said:


> Excited to see the 120fps. I'm confused though, is this with Autofocus?



No AF for 120fps


----------



## Dalantech (Aug 20, 2019)

Tangent said:


> For me the big remaining question is *sensor architecture and DR*. Since they're not touting new and improved sensor technology on these splash videos my guess is that it's the old sensor tech with a MP bump. Same DR, more or less, is the way it would seem... We'll see....
> 
> These are very nice evolutionary upgrades, but I had hoped for kaikaku, not mere kaizen.



Same question I have -if not a significant increase over the 80D then I won't upgrade. I don't need all the AF features.


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Aug 20, 2019)

Proscribo said:


> The travelled distance doesn't directly affect the shortest exposure time as it is achieved by first curtain opening and the second closing at the same time (at which point they can travel closely as long as necessary). It's more about how accurately they travel.
> 
> Flash sync could be achieved at higher speeds, yes.



Same difference. The absolute travel time to traverse 14.8mm is shorter than 24mm, everything else being equal. Easier, cheaper & more reliable to do 1/16000 mechanical SS on a physically smaller shutter assembly. Edited my post to clarify my original point.


----------



## tron (Aug 20, 2019)

Bennymiata said:


> The connectivity is also very interesting.
> If you can send photos and videos (?) to your phone or pc automatically, it will keep a lot of bloggers very happy.
> I've been waiting for a replacement for my 70d and this new 90d seems a very good upgrade.


It depends! If it sends jpegs only then this feature it is of no interest to me. YMMV.

Still waiting to learn if there are programmable buttons just like 7DII/5DsR, etc....


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Aug 20, 2019)

tron said:


> It depends! If it sends jpegs only then this feature it is of no interest to me. YMMV.


Think it’s pretty likely it’ll be jpegs only. No real reason to transfer files that need to be later processed like that anyway.


----------



## tron (Aug 20, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Think it’s pretty likely it’ll be jpegs only. No real reason to transfer files that need to be later processed like that anyway.


Big reason if you want to use it as another backup (in addition to cards of course).
Otherwise no big deal for me. 5DIV and 1DxII can send raw files automatically if desired (it's configurable) by using ftp.

But as this is an upgrade from 7DII (which had minor connectivity and this only by replacing one sd card with the wireless one) I have no objection of course. Just not interested a lot.


----------



## deltoo (Aug 20, 2019)

In my Opinion, after reading the comments and seeing the video, another year of hoping, that there could be a 7D III, only point for the 90D ist the sensor and the Joystick. Especially these flippy screens and 4k30p, are nothing that i need on a pro DSLR, in the end it is a cam for photos not videos


----------



## TPatS (Aug 20, 2019)

Let's be realistic here guys. What would a 7D mk3 offer over the 90D? The 61af point system from the 5D4? Dual card slots? While those features are all well and good and crucial to some buyers, I don't think they're big enough of an advantage that canon would spend more R&D to create a camera with very little difference especially when the market is moving towards mirrorless and canon's profits are falling. With the rumours that the 90D would effectivley be the successor to the 7D2, I can see that this is most likely indeed the sucessor to the 7D line and there will be no 7D3. You got weather sealing, AF joystick, spot AF, 10fps etc, all 7D line features at what i can only assume will be a much lower price point.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 20, 2019)

Kharan said:


> I can live with the filter and single card slot, and also with a fully-usable 8 FPS burst. But the omission of 24p is too much. It feels as if they were spiting me. The hardware can support it, so *WHY!?*


Because you don't "need" it. If you do, in Canon's delusional fantasy world you're supposed to buy one of their Cinema cameras and make them rich. In the real world you'll just buy an ILC from a competitor instead.



> I also think there must be some other nasties lying in wait in the technical specs.


If they're true to their roots there most certainly will be. If they've truly changed maybe not. The lack of p24 suggests they haven't changed very much.


----------



## scyrene (Aug 20, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> Remember 10 years ago when Canon was at the forefront of video in ILCs (DSLRs)? The 7D and 5D2 were cutting edge, class leading, ahead of everyone else products at the time. Those days are long gone for Canon. Now Canon has a line of Cinema cameras to protect, so they're happy to afflict their ILC lineups with the cripple hammer when it comes to video features. The only question is whether Canon has learned anything and changed their way a bit or if they're the same old Canon. I guess we'll find out more once the full details are released on the 90D and the M6 II. The recent G5X II and G7X III are not good foreshadowing though.



Wow so negative. But I'm confused - what do you mean by "The only question is whether Canon has learned anything" - learned from what?


----------



## uri.raz (Aug 20, 2019)

KenSoftTH said:


> I ran into several hard drive fail.



HDD failure is inevitable, which is why I backup photos to the cloud (when I finish processing them) and optical media (once a month).

Flash memory cells can be written to a limited number of times, then it fails. Good memory cards do wear leveling, but it only delays the inevitable. Then, other parts might fail too. E.g. I bought a SanDisk Extreme PRO 256GB USB 3.1 Solid State Flash Drive, and the memory controller failed after a few months of light use. According to Amazon reviews, this is a common problem with this product.

With today's technology, buying from good brands may give the impression that the odds are ever in your favor, but failure is a real possibility.


----------



## tron (Aug 20, 2019)

TPatS said:


> Let's be realistic here guys. What would a 7D mk3 offer over the 90D? The 61af point system from the 5D4? Dual card slots? While those features are all well and good and crucial to some buyers, I don't think they're big enough of an advantage that canon would spend more R&D to create a camera with very little difference especially when the market is moving towards mirrorless and canon's profits are falling. With the rumours that the 90D would effectivley be the successor to the 7D2, I can see that this is most likely indeed the sucessor to the 7D line and there will be no 7D3. You got weather sealing, AF joystick, spot AF, 10fps etc, all 7D line features at what i can only assume will be a much lower price point.


How much to spend on R&D for a technology that already exists? (65 AF point sensor, dual cards, etc)

But of course 90D is very appealing (assuming it has the same programmable buttons for continuity and assistant AF points)


----------



## Chaitanya (Aug 20, 2019)

Kharan said:


> I can live with the filter and single card slot, and also with a fully-usable 8 FPS burst. But the omission of 24p is too much. It feels as if they were spiting me. The hardware can support it, so *WHY!?*
> I also think there must be some other nasties lying in wait in the technical specs.


We will have to wait for final release to get full specifications. Also reading at leaked material, noticed the USB port is type-C but the controller sitting behind it only supports 2.0 speeds not SS rating. There are going to be somethings that Canon is hiding behind that marketing material with purposeful castrations done for segmentation. I have lost photos before due to card failure(Sandisk extreme) and it really sucks when that happens. Would much rather have liked to see dual card slots.


----------



## koenkooi (Aug 20, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> We will have to wait for final release to get full specifications. Also reading at leaked material, noticed the USB port is type-C but the controller sitting behind it only supports 2.0 speeds not SS rating.[..]



I would have expected the usb controller to be part of the digic chip. That, combined with the fact that the R does support USB3 I think Canon decided to segmentize it. M*, RP -> USB2, R, Rx, Rs -> USB3


----------



## dslrdummy (Aug 20, 2019)

The specs don't say which of the AF points are dual cross-type. Assume it will be same as 80D.


----------



## Adrianf (Aug 20, 2019)

No-one I know with a recent Canon crop DSLR wanted more pixels. They wanted BETTER pixels. I really hope the DR and high ISO performance is good on this new camera. I'm also guessing that only the very best top-end glass will resolve 32MP on a crop sensor.


----------



## TPatS (Aug 20, 2019)

dslrdummy said:


> The specs don't say which of the AF points are dual cross-type. Assume it will be same as 80D.


I believe the vid said that ALL points would be cross type


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Aug 20, 2019)

He meant dual cross-type AF point, which on the 80D is only for the center point.


----------



## chrysoberyl (Aug 20, 2019)

Neither body interests me. I can only imagine what the DLA is – the 80D DLA is f/6.0, so the DLA for these bodies will be what? f/4.5? Much too low for my macro needs.

The other problem is resolution. I have compared the resolution of my 5DIV to my 80D numerous times and the 80D is always inferior – so much so that I rarely use my 80D. Same lens, f/5.6, same other settings, same post-processing. Is it possible the 90D sensor tech is substantively better than that of the 80D?


----------



## TPatS (Aug 20, 2019)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> He meant dual-cross AF point, which on the 80D is only for the center point.


Ah i see, my bad.


----------



## Chaitanya (Aug 20, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> I would have expected the usb controller to be part of the digic chip. That, combined with the fact that the R does support USB3 I think Canon decided to segmentize it. M*, RP -> USB2, R, Rx, Rs -> USB3


Its not just with 90D but if you look at previous gen cameras 7D mk2 and 5D mk4 both came with USB 3.0 support while 80D and 6D mk2 only kept USB 2.0 support. While people see Canon Castration in video and other features its even with connectivity that Canon segements its products.


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 20, 2019)

chrysoberyl said:


> Neither body interests me. I can only imagine what the DLA is – the 80D DLA is f/6.0, so the DLA for these bodies will be what? f/4.5? Much too low for my macro needs.
> 
> The other problem is resolution. I have compared the resolution of my 5DIV to my 80D numerous times and the 80D is always inferior – so much so that I rarely use my 80D. Same lens, f/5.6, same other settings, same post-processing. Is it possible the 90D sensor tech is substantively better than that of the 80D?


DLA is such a ridiculous number that doesn't mean what most people think it does. 

For your macro work for a same sized subject reproduction you will get more detail out of more pixels irrespective of the DLA figure.


----------



## criscokkat (Aug 20, 2019)

TPatS said:


> Let's be realistic here guys. What would a 7D mk3 offer over the 90D? The 61af point system from the 5D4? Dual card slots? While those features are all well and good and crucial to some buyers, I don't think they're big enough of an advantage that canon would spend more R&D to create a camera with very little difference especially when the market is moving towards mirrorless and canon's profits are falling. With the rumours that the 90D would effectivley be the successor to the 7D2, I can see that this is most likely indeed the sucessor to the 7D line and there will be no 7D3. You got weather sealing, AF joystick, spot AF, 10fps etc, all 7D line features at what i can only assume will be a much lower price point.


This is especially true if there is a forthcoming APS-C R mount sports oriented camera. Upgrade the 90d to specs that birders and other niche cases where having a mirror is an advantage, then release essentially the same camera with dual digic/dual memory card/faster fps with an R mount and a 18-xx something variable aperture kit lens. Thereby creating a new category of prosumer aps-c R mount that's roughly equivalent to the the 7d mk2.

They keep saying something unexpected is coming, I still think that might be it. Making the 90d more like the 7d mk2 has more to do with positioning against Sony and their new APS-C cameras than it does as being a true replacement for the 7d line. They needed to have a list of features comparable to Sony so that sitting in a box store at Christmas the average consumer picks the one that says "Canon" (because they know 'Canon is supposed to be a good brand') over the one that is just slightly more megapixels or fps on the display. The only real unexpected thing on this to me is the joystick, but since Sony has them on theirs in this range it's another tick in the box.


----------



## chrysoberyl (Aug 20, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> DLA is such a ridiculous number that doesn't mean what most people think it does.
> 
> For your macro work for a same sized subject reproduction you will get more detail out of more pixels irrespective of the DLA figure.



I've read enough of your posts to respect your opinion, but:

1. I do not like the 5DIV above f/11; the loss of resolution is excessive. In fact, at some point I'll pull out my 6D to compare, f/11-f/16.
2. The 80D resolution is distinctly inferior for macro, with the same lens (Sigma 70mm Art) and framing the subject the same.

Is it likely I have a bad copy of the 80D? What does DLA mean to you?


----------



## BillB (Aug 20, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Its not just with 90D but if you look at previous gen cameras 7D mk2 and 5D mk4 both came with USB 3.0 support while 80D and 6D mk2 only kept USB 2.0 support. While people see Canon Castration in video and other features its even with connectivity that Canon segements its products.


Either it's product segmentation or it' s reusing parts from previous models without upgrading them, most likely for budget reasons. Or maybe it's for some other reason. Since we are unlikely to know for sure why Canon did what it did, we can each believe what we want to believe. And announce our beliefs to the cyber world if we are so inclined.


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Aug 20, 2019)

Adrianf said:


> No-one I know with a recent Canon crop DSLR wanted more pixels. They wanted BETTER pixels. I really hope the DR and high ISO performance is good on this new camera. I'm also guessing that only the very best top-end glass will resolve 32MP on a crop sensor.


You need to get out more, then - wildlife photographers (I'm one) will _love_ the additional pixels.

And "better" pixels?

Doesn't mean what you think it means. If you can't get all the DR and high ISO performance you need out of a Canon sensor, it ain't the pixels...


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Aug 20, 2019)

Avenger 2.0 said:


> Good for you. Just tell that to the wedding couple the first time you do get a card failure. Sorry, lost your wedding, but don't worry, the chance of it happening again is very slim.



A wedding 'tog without a back-up camera to hand?

Unlikely...


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Aug 20, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> Because you don't "need" it. If you do, in Canon's delusional fantasy world you're supposed to buy one of their Cinema cameras and make them rich. In the real world you'll just buy an ILC from a competitor instead.



I'm sure Canon will be deeply grateful for your insightful explanation of the economic realities.

That'll be why Canon continues to outsell all of its competitors then, eh?


----------



## Avenger 2.0 (Aug 20, 2019)

Keith_Reeder said:


> A wedding 'tog without a back-up camera to hand?
> 
> Unlikely...


If the day after your sd card is dead, a backup camera won't help much. Not sure they will be very happy with only the 70-200 and no 24-70 pictures.


----------



## Adrianf (Aug 20, 2019)

Keith_Reeder said:


> You need to get out more, then - wildlife photographers (I'm one) will _love_ the additional pixels.
> 
> And "better" pixels?
> 
> Doesn't mean what you think it means. If you can't get all the DR and high ISO performance you need out of a Canon sensor, it ain't the pixels...


I am a wildlife photographer. I use both a 5D4 and 7D2 on my 500mm F4 mkii. I love the 7D2 but its noise performance and DR, particularly in poor light, is nowhere near as good as the 5D4. I really wanted an updated 7D2 with a sensor as good as the 5D4, however many pixels it had. Quality pixels over quantity for me, any day!


----------



## Chaitanya (Aug 20, 2019)

BillB said:


> Either it's product segmentation or it' s reusing parts from previous models without upgrading them, most likely for budget reasons. Or maybe it's for some other reason. Since we are unlikely to know for sure why Canon did what it did, we can each believe what we want to believe. And announce our beliefs to the cyber world if we are so inclined.


Reusing parts doesnt make sense as both 80D and 6D mk2 have USB mini-B connector with High-speed capabilities while both 7D mk2 and 5d mk4 have USB 3.0 micro-B connector with super speed capabilities(i.e 5Gbps). So yeah I dont know how they are using reusing parts to save costs here.


----------



## $winter (Aug 20, 2019)

uri.raz said:


> HDD failure is inevitable, which is why I backup photos to the cloud (when I finish processing them) and optical media (once a month).
> 
> Flash memory cells can be written to a limited number of times, then it fails. Good memory cards do wear leveling, but it only delays the inevitable. Then, other parts might fail too. E.g. I bought a SanDisk Extreme PRO 256GB USB 3.1 Solid State Flash Drive, and the memory controller failed after a few months of light use. According to Amazon reviews, this is a common problem with this product.
> 
> With today's technology, buying from good brands may give the impression that the odds are ever in your favor, but failure is a real possibility.


who need 2 slots in furture? instant clound! 

"""With integrated Wi-Fi and Bluetooth connectivity, you can share the
images from your EOS 90D to your smart device quickly and easily
with the Canon Camera Connect App. A constant connection
between the EOS 90D and your smartphone can be maintained via
Bluetooth® connectivity, letting you view your photographs without
taking the camera from your bag.
""


----------



## Avenger 2.0 (Aug 20, 2019)

$winter said:


> who need 2 slots in furture? instant clound!
> 
> """With integrated Wi-Fi and Bluetooth connectivity, you can share the
> images from your EOS 90D to your smart device quickly and easily
> ...


Nice feature, but not sure it would be 100% reliable. In my experience wireless rearly is.


----------



## tron (Aug 20, 2019)

$winter said:


> who need 2 slots in furture? instant clound!
> 
> """With integrated Wi-Fi and Bluetooth connectivity, you can share the
> images from your EOS 90D to your smart device quickly and easily
> ...


As mentioned previously it is most probably for jpegs only.

EDIT: And I guess you still have to take your camera out of the bag to take ... pictures


----------



## OneSnark (Aug 20, 2019)

Avenger 2.0 said:


> If the day after your sd card is dead, a backup camera won't help much. Not sure they will be very happy with only the 70-200 and no 24-70 pictures.



Ahhh. . . . . The dreaded single card failure scenario. 

I can’t tell you the number of times I have been burned by a card failure.

Since the advent of digital photos in the 90s – I may have lost two entire images due to data corruption. Maybe three. I have never lost an entire card.

No - that’s not true. Thinking back, I have lost two cards. Each case – lost the card along with the entire camera. I travel hard.

I have had more flash failures than I care to count. I have also had lens failures. Even an entire body failure. Never a card failure. 

Dual memory card slots doesn’t make the bottom of my wish list.

For important occasions – I have two if not three cameras in the bag. Having dual card slots adds some albeit minimal value. 

Discover that you have a dead card the next day? Do you seriously never chimp the images? Never mind card failure – there are 100 things that can go wrong with the camera that prevents capturing images. You have to check along the way.

I bet you format the card before every session as well?


----------



## OneSnark (Aug 20, 2019)

Avenger 2.0 said:


> Nice feature, but not sure it would be 100% reliable. In my experience wireless rearly is.



I agree. 

I wouldn’t bet more than a ham sandwich on the functionality - but the WiFi on my 80d has proven to be a neat trick. I have used it to get images to my phone while on location (either for texts or Facebook). Also have sent images to a little photo printer. Nice way to show off. 

The canon implementation of connectivity is, however, an abomination. It works - but barely. Hope it improves in the new cameras. 

(Much more useful than dual card slots  )


----------



## koenkooi (Aug 20, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Reusing parts doesnt make sense as both 80D and 6D mk2 have USB mini-B connector with High-speed capabilities while both 7D mk2 and 5d mk4 have USB 3.0 micro-B connector with super speed capabilities(i.e 5Gbps). So yeah I dont know how they are using reusing parts to save costs here.



The RP has a USB-C connector with a USB2 interface.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 20, 2019)

scyrene said:


> Wow so negative. But I'm confused - what do you mean by "The only question is whether Canon has learned anything" - learned from what?


The negativity, mockery, and general perception new buyers have of the brand as being technologically behind (because they are). They went from the feature leader to the begrudging follower who only adds features when they have to and they still find ways to cripple those features. Canon management made public statements to the effect of "we're not going to hold back anymore." Clearly that's not true, or Canon really is in far deeper trouble than anyone imagined if these cameras are the best Canon can make.



Keith_Reeder said:


> I'm sure Canon will be deeply grateful for your insightful explanation of the economic realities.
> 
> That'll be why Canon continues to outsell all of its competitors then, eh?


Past performance is no guarantee of future results. It will catch up to them eventually. The idea that they can't be knocked off their perch flies in the face of reality. IBM still has a stranglehold on the PC market right? Blackberry still has the dominant share of smart phones right? RCA and Zenith still are the dominant brands of TVs right?


----------



## Chaitanya (Aug 20, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> The RP has a USB-C connector with a USB2 interface.


Same as 90D. Also why are they still using old USB 2.0 controllers when most modern PC dont even come with USB 2.0 connectors anymore. I really appreciate that Canon has finally dumped mini-B and micro-B connectors from its cameras. At best USB 2.0 provides a data transfer speed of 25MBps and tethering using that old interface is painful at best.


----------



## Avenger 2.0 (Aug 20, 2019)

OneSnark said:


> Ahhh. . . . . The dreaded single card failure scenario.
> 
> I can’t tell you the number of times I have been burned by a card failure.
> 
> ...


I once had a card failure (new SanDisk extreme pro) the day after, it can happen. Had also some lost images, broken lens, failing body and once stolen camera (keep backup sd card always on you and change cards). Unless you want to be that wedding photographer that gets a headline in the local newspaper that he lost some couples wedding pictures and gets sued (yes seen that multiple times).


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 20, 2019)

If you want dual cards, buy a camera with dual cards. This is pretty simple.


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 20, 2019)

chrysoberyl said:


> I've read enough of your posts to respect your opinion, but:
> 
> 1. I do not like the 5DIV above f/11; the loss of resolution is excessive. In fact, at some point I'll pull out my 6D to compare, f/11-f/16.
> 2. The 80D resolution is distinctly inferior for macro, with the same lens (Sigma 70mm Art) and framing the subject the same.
> ...



1. Diffraction is a function of enlargement, if you enlarge the 5D MkIV and 6D the diffraction is the same, the smaller pixels of the 5D MkIV might be able to define the diffraction better, but the diffraction is the same in both images at the same size. It's only when you go to "100%" (or any percentage enlargement of pixel numbers not area) that the differences in same sized sensors becomes visible, but think about it, if you enlarge anything 'more' than something else it will show optical aberrations more even though they are actually the same.

2. Probably not, but you are enlarging a smaller pixel to a larger size thus exaggerating any aberrations more.

Possible, but probably not. DLA means this to me https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography.htm

Imagine this scenario. You have a 24mm long fly, you can reproduce that at 1:1 on your 80D, 5D MkIV or 6D, on the 80D it fills the frame but it is reproduced the same size on all the sensors. Take the three shots at the same settings.

Now make three 8" x 10" prints where the fly fills the paper, the 80D print is uncropped, obviously, the other two are cropped but the fly is the same size on all three prints. The diffraction is the same in all three prints. Now really crop in to the eye of the fly and make three more 8" x 10" prints where just the eye of the fly fills the print, the diffraction is the same but, assuming good technique etc the image with the most pixels will retain the most detail even though theoretically it is 'suffering' DLA, all it really means is the pixels are capable of defining the airy discs of the diffraction, those airy discs are the same in all three photos though.

More pixels on a same area are never worse, they just sometimes don't give you much more detail, especially in macro shooting scenarios where reproduction size and capture ratios are so important.


----------



## Canon1966 (Aug 20, 2019)

There is no doubt the 90D has valid improvements over the 80D, but not so much over the competition. It makes me think of buying a car without air conditioning or some other standard feature. Don't get me wrong I love Canon. I think the L lenses are superb. But I would like to feel proud of the camera company. Of course gear isn't everything and if you know what you're doing you can take great photos no matter what you use. I'm not a highly tech person, but it's obvious to me Canon has slowed down it's pace in comparison to other manufacturers unless they are waiting for the right time to shock the world with something completely different. I personally think Sony is leading the way and setting the standards for the 21st century with Nikon and then Canon after it. Just my opinion... I was venting just now.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 20, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> Past performance is no guarantee of future results. It will catch up to them eventually.


The sun will become a red giant and destroy the earth eventually. 

Meanwhile, people here have been saying for years that Canon is *******. Maybe they’ll be right before the earth is obliterated.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 20, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> The sun will become a red giant and destroy the earth eventually.
> 
> Meanwhile, people here have been saying for years that Canon is *******. Maybe they’ll be right before the earth is obliterated.


Way to sell it short. It's a near absolute certainty that at some point in the next few billion years Canon will be *******.


----------



## deltoo (Aug 20, 2019)

I dont know why so many people are complaining about USB2.0, the last time i connected the camera for transfering pictures is more than 10 years ago. Using CardReaders is especially when using more than two cards much easier


----------



## jvillain (Aug 20, 2019)

Adrianf said:


> No-one I know with a recent Canon crop DSLR wanted more pixels. They wanted BETTER pixels. I really hope the DR and high ISO performance is good on this new camera. I'm also guessing that only the very best top-end glass will resolve 32MP on a crop sensor.



The Sigma 18-35 and 50-100 Art are going to rock on this thing. 



chrysoberyl said:


> I've read enough of your posts to respect your opinion, but:
> 
> 1. I do not like the 5DIV above f/11; the loss of resolution is excessive. In fact, at some point I'll pull out my 6D to compare, f/11-f/16.
> 2. The 80D resolution is distinctly inferior for macro, with the same lens (Sigma 70mm Art) and framing the subject the same.
> ...



I use both the Sigma 18-35 an 50-100 on the 80D often stopped down as far as they will go for landscape work and at 100% I am not finding issues with the picture. Properly designed crop glass will work better on a crop camera than FF glass.


----------



## scyrene (Aug 20, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> The negativity, mockery, and general perception new buyers have of the brand as being technologically behind (because they are). They went from the feature leader to the begrudging follower who only adds features when they have to and they still find ways to cripple those features. Canon management made public statements to the effect of "we're not going to hold back anymore." Clearly that's not true, or Canon really is in far deeper trouble than anyone imagined if these cameras are the best Canon can make.



Why do you think negativity and mockery by a small number of people online (a minority even of forum dwellers, who are themselves a vanishingly small percentage of the total camera-buying population) is of interest to them, if sales continue to go their way? You can find negativity and mockery anywhere online regarding any subject imaginable. I would suggest it's foolish to base business decisions on that. And they don't have to make the best cameras they can, they just have to make cameras that sell well enough, with enough profit margin, to continue bringing in adequate revenues.



Stereodude said:


> Past performance is no guarantee of future results. It will catch up to them eventually. The idea that they can't be knocked off their perch flies in the face of reality.



This discussion has been had before, on other threads. Past performance is indeed no _guarantee_ of future results but it can be a good indication - it would be foolish to ignore consistently good (market) performance for many years when trying to determine which companies are best placed to continue in the near future. "It will catch up to them eventually." is a very confident statement indeed, and one which we've heard year after year. I ask you what I ask everyone who says this: based on what specifically (hint: 'they aren't making the product I want' isn't an adequate response), and why now?


----------



## scyrene (Aug 20, 2019)

Canon1966 said:


> I would like to feel proud of the camera company.



Why? And more broadly, what is missing from this camera that you think it ought to have?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 20, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> Way to sell it short. It's a near absolute certainty that at some point in the next few billion years Canon will be *******.


True. And as long as your use of the word ‘eventually’ is on the cosmic time scale, you’re correct. Of course, we both know your implication was that the exclusion of 1080p24 and similar ‘crippling’ (your word, not mine) will catch up with them _soon_. Because, you know, 1080p24 is absolutely mission critical for a huge swath of the ILC market.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 20, 2019)

scyrene said:


> Why do you think negativity and mockery by a small number of people online (a minority even of forum dwellers, who are themselves a vanishingly small percentage of the total camera-buying population) is of interest to them, if sales continue to go their way? You can find negativity and mockery anywhere online regarding any subject imaginable. I would suggest it's foolish to base business decisions on that. And they don't have to make the best cameras they can, they just have to make cameras that sell well enough, with enough profit margin, to continue bringing in adequate revenues.


You don't know that the number of potential camera buyers who are unhappy with these cameras is vanishingly small. In fact all signs point to the fact that the majority of camera buyers are "unhappy" with them. Canon has less than a 50% market share. That means that the majority of camera buyers are "unhappy" with them.



> This discussion has been had before, on other threads. Past performance is indeed no _guarantee_ of future results but it can be a good indication - it would be foolish to ignore consistently good (market) performance for many years when trying to determine which companies are best placed to continue in the near future. "It will catch up to them eventually." is a very confident statement indeed, and one which we've heard year after year. I ask you what I ask everyone who says this: based on what specifically (hint: 'they aren't making the product I want' isn't an adequate response), and why now?


Sales are on a consistent decline and even Canon predicts that trend will not reverse. So, if you ignore that and only look at marketshare you can call the performance "good". I guess if they want to be the premiere manufacturer of buggy whips in an automobile world that option is open to them.

I didn't say anything about features I want. They are missing features that are being offered by their competitors and Canon seems to be falling further and further behind and are baking in even more and more bizarre artificial limitations into the cameras. Like removing relevant features that they previously offered for no reason.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 20, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> True. And as long as your use of the word ‘eventually’ is on the cosmic time scale, you’re correct.


You're the one who switched to the cosmic time scale. I simply pointed out that on a cosmic time scale you were most certainly soft selling the situation.



> Of course, we both know your implication was that the exclusion of 1080p24 and similar ‘crippling’ (your word, not mine) will catch up with them _soon_. Because, you know, 1080p24 is absolutely mission critical for a huge swath of the ILC market.


I didn't say it was absolutely mission critical, but p24 isn't the only crippling in Canon's cameras. The removal of it certainly send a very clear message about the apparent pettiness and arogance of Canon and what they think of their buyers. A business who doesn't have a monopoly can't treat their customers with disdain in this way indefinitely and hope to stay on top.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 20, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> Canon has less than a 50% market share. That means that the majority of camera buyers are "unhappy" with them.


In that case, a much much larger majority of camera buyers are unhappy with manufacturers that offer those features you are bashing Canon for omitting. 

Evidently, logic is not your forte.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 20, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> A business who doesn't have a monopoly can't treat their customers with disdain in this way indefinitely and hope to stay on top.


Sure, sure. They’ve been doing it for 16 years now and people have been complaining about it on this forum for over a decade, but it will catch up to them eventually. Cosmically. Got it.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 20, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> In that case, a much much larger majority of camera buyers are unhappy with manufacturers that offer those features you are bashing Canon for omitting.
> 
> Evidently, logic is not your forte.


There you go again projecting. You seem to have overlooked that the majority of the cameras sold have that feature, so explain your "logic" to me again...



neuroanatomist said:


> Sure, sure. They’ve been doing it for 16 years now and people have been complaining about it on this forum for over a decade, but it will catch up to them eventually. Cosmically. Got it.


Who said they've been doing it for 16 years now? 10 years ago Canon was on the cutting edge on video features. They're still riding out the momentum they gained 10 years ago by establishing the market.


----------



## scyrene (Aug 20, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> You don't know that the number of potential camera buyers who are unhappy with these cameras is vanishingly small. In fact all signs point to the fact that the majority of camera buyers are "unhappy" with them. Canon has less than a 50% market share. That means that the majority of camera buyers are "unhappy" with them.



Wow. Neuro's reply is all the answer this needs.



Stereodude said:


> Sales are on a consistent decline and even Canon predicts that trend will not reverse. So, if you ignore that and only look at marketshare you can call the performance "good". I guess if they want to be the premiere manufacturer of buggy whips in an automobile world that option is open to them.



The market overall is contracting. Is it your contention that this would not be the case if Canon made cameras with specifications you think would be better than they currently are? You *seem* to have taken something very small and specific (the omission of a niche feature) and extrapolated it to the state of the entire photographic market.



Stereodude said:


> I didn't say anything about features I want. They are missing features that are being offered by their competitors and Canon seems to be falling further and further behind and are baking in even more and more bizarre artificial limitations into the cameras. Like removing relevant features that they previously offered for no reason.



What doesn't seem to have occurred to you is that maybe they've realised that these features are irrelevant to so many people that they can omit them henceforth without it impacting their sales? We don't know their reasoning, but why is your hypothesis better than this one? I doubt it's 'for no reason' either way. After all, if these features *are* as vital as you seem to be implying, their competitors should surely be taking market share away from them?


----------



## scyrene (Aug 20, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> They're still riding out the momentum they gained 10 years ago by establishing the market.



You keep criticising others for making unsubstantiated claims, then you swoop in with far more sweeping ones yourself, like this. CITATION NEEDED.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 20, 2019)

scyrene said:


> You keep criticising others for making unsubstantiated claims, then you swoop in with far more sweeping ones yourself, like this. CITATION NEEDED.


First you'll have to clarify which part you think is unsubstantiated...


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 20, 2019)

scyrene said:


> What doesn't seem to have occurred to you is that maybe they've realised that these features are irrelevant to so many people that they can omit them henceforth without it impacting their sales? We don't know their reasoning, but why is your hypothesis better than this one? I doubt it's 'for no reason' either way. After all, if these features *are* as vital as you seem to be implying, their competitors should surely be taking market share away from them?


Give it time. They've only started removing it from new models.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 21, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> Give it time.


Yes, cosmic-scale time.


----------



## David - Sydney (Aug 21, 2019)

Avenger 2.0 said:


> Good luck with that. You just know this is going to fail at a critical moment. Better just rely on 1 card and pray it doesn't fail or buy a camera that has two.


Everything will fail at some point but isn't an additional layer of redundancy still a benefit? I don't see the point of ignoring it if it is possible with single card cameras. Has anyone got any additional information on the speed and buffer related issues with wireless tethering to phones?


----------



## OneSnark (Aug 21, 2019)

David - Sydney said:


> Everything will fail at some point but isn't an additional layer of redundancy still a benefit? I don't see the point of ignoring it if it is possible with single card cameras. Has anyone got any additional information on the speed and buffer related issues with wireless tethering to phones?



Suuuuure. 
I don't have any information about "speed" and "buffering" for a 90D. . . .but I do know that I always seem to have to fiddle with my 80D and my phone to get the two to pair up. I have a canon P&S with similar wi-fi functionality. My general impression is that this functionality in both cameras is 3/4 baked. . .some fiddling is always required to make things work. Especially with constant app and phone software upgrades, and the fact that my phone is primarily used for non-camera activities. I am also not sure how operation with *two* cameras at the same event would work out. 

I am sure I could figure something out - maybe buy some dedicated cheap hardware / software to make everything work in portable studio setup. Then we can talk about Wi-Fi speed and whatnot.

But Canon wifi connectivity is definitely not "apple in their prime" bullet-proof easy.
Given the state of the Canon software, I wouldn't *depend* on any of the WiFi stuff for "mission critical" images.
Given the controversy over 24fps video, it would take some convincing to make me think Canon is about to improve *WiFi connectivity* in the new batch of cameras.

It all boils down to "how paranoid are you?".
If I really thought "SD Card failure during an event* was something to worry about, I would definitely look towards a camera with a dual slot solution.

For securing data after an event.. .there are a number of equally valid approaches which we can discuss in a different thread.


----------



## scyrene (Aug 21, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> First you'll have to clarify which part you think is unsubstantiated...



The part I literally quoted in my reply


----------



## scyrene (Aug 21, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> Give it time. They've only started removing it from new models.



So you are definitely saying that removing (or not including) a particular video framerate will cause a decline in sales, okay. That's a hypothesis, although of course we can't really test it because even though we can see overall sales, we don't have access to the reasons people choose to buy (except as anecdote). But that takes me back to what I asked earlier - given we've had people coming on these forums for years saying X feature will cost Canon their market dominance (some examples include low ISO DR, absence of 4K, absence of full frame 4K, dual card slots in some models), and so far it hasn't, why *this* feature, and why *now*?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 21, 2019)

scyrene said:


> ... given we've had people coming on these forums for years saying X feature will cost Canon their market dominance (some examples include low ISO DR, absence of 4K, absence of full frame 4K, dual card slots in some models), and so far it hasn't, why *this* feature, and why *now*?


Because he wants it, Precious. The people who want more DR claim Canon is ******* without it, the people who want a second card slot claim Canon is ******* without it, the people who want a hot pink ILC claim Canon is ******* for making black ones, etc. His p24 is yet another example of someone deluding themselves by thinking their personal want is a universal desire. He thinks _this_ time his prediction of doom for Canon is right.


----------



## scyrene (Aug 21, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Because he wants it, Precious. The people who want more DR claim Canon is ******* without it, the people who want a second card slot claim Canon is ******* without it, the people who want a hot pink ILC claim Canon is ******* for making black ones, etc. His p24 is yet another example of someone deluding themselves by thinking their personal want is a universal desire. He thinks _this_ time his prediction of doom for Canon is right.



Pyschology is strange.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 21, 2019)

scyrene said:


> The part I literally quoted in my reply


So you don't agree that Canon established the market for video in ILCs 10 years ago with the 5D II and the 7D? If you think that's unsubstantiated I'll just leave you to your ignorance.



neuroanatomist said:


> Because he wants it, Precious.


You two should get a room if you're going to talk to each other like that.


----------



## scyrene (Aug 21, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> So you don't agree that Canon established the market for video in ILCs 10 years ago with the 5D II and the 7D? If you think that's unsubstantiated I'll just leave you to your ignorance.



Erm how did your sentence start? "*They're still riding out the momentum they gained 10 years ago...*". THAT is unsubstantiated. THAT is supposition. How do you know this? You think that all the sales they make now are based on something they did ten years ago? Camera buyers are so nostalgic or uneducated that they think 'the 5D2 broke the mould for DSLR video, I'll buy whatever Canon is making now'. That most new buyers are even AWARE of what was happening in the market ten years ago seems a stretch. You seem pretty articulate so maybe you're playing dumb for effect. I really hope so, because most of what you've posted on these forums recently has been so bizarre and obviously warped that it would be a shame if you really believed it.


----------



## Kit. (Aug 21, 2019)

scyrene said:


> Erm how did your sentence start? "*They're still riding out the momentum they gained 10 years ago...*". THAT is unsubstantiated. THAT is supposition. How do you know this? You think that all the sales they make now are based on something they did ten years ago? Camera buyers are so nostalgic or uneducated that they think 'the 5D2 broke the mould for DSLR video, I'll buy whatever Canon is making now'.


To be honest, I've just paid Canon €500 for fixing my broken 5D2. Obviously, that must be a lot of momentum for Canon.

I don't use it to shoot videos, though.


----------



## chrysoberyl (Aug 22, 2019)

jvillain said:


> I use both the Sigma 18-35 an 50-100 on the 80D often stopped down as far as they will go for landscape work and at 100% I am not finding issues with the picture. Properly designed crop glass will work better on a crop camera than FF glass.



Thanks for the feedback! I expected my 80D to equal my 5DIV in resolution and it definitely does not for moon shots, macro, etc. I conclude my expectations are just out of line.

The thing about crop glass working better has me a little mystified; it is my understanding that using FF glass on crop means the sensor uses only the best part of the lens, avoiding the edge issues, especially vignetting.


----------



## ++k (Aug 22, 2019)

Hey, has anyone checked out these leaked official SAMPLE IMAGES from 90D? They're probably highly processed, but at the first glance, some of them show a nice DR and contrast. Unfortunately, they were scaled down and have no EXIF. What do you think of them?


----------



## haggie (Aug 22, 2019)

TPatS said:


> Let's be realistic here guys. What would a 7D mk3 offer over the 90D? The 61af point system from the 5D4? Dual card slots? While those features are all well and good and crucial to some buyers, I don't think they're big enough of an advantage that canon would spend more R&D to create a camera with very little difference especially when the market is moving towards mirrorless and canon's profits are falling. With the rumours that the 90D would effectivley be the successor to the 7D2, I can see that this is most likely indeed the sucessor to the 7D line and there will be no 7D3. You got weather sealing, AF joystick, spot AF, 10fps etc, *all 7D line features *at what i can only assume will be a much lower price point.



"_You got ..... all 7D line features_"? 
You are joking, right?
If not: download and read the 7D II's Manual (apparently you do not have one, hence: download it).


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Aug 22, 2019)

90D also inherits the best 80D feature: it costs ~$700 less than the 7D line when it was released.


----------



## Sharlin (Aug 22, 2019)

++k said:


> Hey, has anyone checked out these leaked official SAMPLE IMAGES from 90D? They're probably highly processed, but at the first glance, some of them show a nice DR and contrast. Unfortunately, they were scaled down and have no EXIF. What do you think of them?



At that size, could have been taken with any remotely modern ILC. Impossible to say much about actual IQ before we get RAWs.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 23, 2019)

scyrene said:


> Erm how did your sentence start? "*They're still riding out the momentum they gained 10 years ago...*". THAT is unsubstantiated. THAT is supposition. How do you know this? You think that all the sales they make now are based on something they did ten years ago? Camera buyers are so nostalgic or uneducated that they think 'the 5D2 broke the mould for DSLR video, I'll buy whatever Canon is making now'. That most new buyers are even AWARE of what was happening in the market ten years ago seems a stretch. You seem pretty articulate so maybe you're playing dumb for effect. I really hope so, because most of what you've posted on these forums recently has been so bizarre and obviously warped that it would be a shame if you really believed it.


It's not at all an unsubstantiated supposition. If people didn't have a legacy of using Canon for video back from when they were the best and established the market and have a pile of EF glass virtually no one would still be buying Canon ILCs for video. Established video shooters are still using Canon because they invested in the Canon EF lens system back when Canon was the best and these shooters haven't bailed yet because they're financially invested in the EOS/EF system and lets not underestimate brand loyalty either. Any unattached newbie buying into Canon ILCs for video certainly isn't buying in because they're the best. They're heavily influenced because they see established legacy users with Canon and they're emulating what they see figuring the established legacy Canon users must be using them for a good reason. If new brand came to the market with a series of ILCs with the exact video features found in Canon cameras at the same prices they would not be competitive in the market and would not sell well.

So, yeah Canon is riding out momentum in the video arena with their ILCs from when they were the best and established the market.

Why do you think people are still buying Canon ILCs for video? It's certainly not for their feature set.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Aug 23, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> At that size, could have been taken with any remotely modern ILC. Impossible to say much about actual IQ before we get RAWs.


Most images look like they could have been taken with any remotely modern ILC. Outside some obvious fast motion, I never look at a photo and think “boy that must be some great gear,” and even fast motion isn’t a sure thing.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Aug 23, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> It's not at all an unsubstantiated supposition. If people didn't have a legacy of using Canon for video back from when they were the best and established the market and have a pile of EF glass virtually no one would still be buying Canon ILCs for video. Established video shooters are still using Canon because they invested in the Canon EF lens system back when Canon was the best and these shooters haven't bailed yet because they're financially invested in the EOS/EF system and lets not underestimate brand loyalty either. Any unattached newbie buying into Canon ILCs for video certainly isn't buying in because they're the best. They're heavily influenced because they see established legacy users with Canon and they're emulating what they see figuring the established legacy Canon users must be using them for a good reason. If new brand came to the market with a series of ILCs with the exact video features found in Canon cameras at the same prices they would not be competitive in the market and would not sell well.
> 
> So, yeah Canon is riding out momentum in the video arena with their ILCs from when they were the best and established the market.
> 
> Why do you think people are still buying Canon ILCs for video? It's certainly not for their feature set.



Interesting theory, but unless you can substantiate it, it was properly labeled.


----------



## TPatS (Aug 23, 2019)

haggie said:


> "_You got ..... all 7D line features_"?
> You are joking, right?
> If not: download and read the 7D II's Manual (apparently you do not have one, hence: download it).


I think you severly misunderstood me there. What i mean by ALL 7D LINE, was that the features i mentioned directly before that, SPECIFICALLY weather sealing, joystick, 10fps are ALL TRADITIONALLY FOUND ON THE 7D LINE, I didn't say that EVERY SINGLE 7D FEATURE was to be present on the 90D


----------



## Sharlin (Aug 23, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Most images look like they could have been taken with any remotely modern ILC. Outside some obvious fast motion, I never look at a photo and think “boy that must be some great gear,” and even fast motion isn’t a sure thing.



Yeah, that’s what I meant. With JPEGs at web resolution there’s no telling really.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 23, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Interesting theory, but unless you can substantiate it, it was properly labeled.


It aligns with all the observable evidence. That's how a hypothesis is substantiated. When evidence can be found that disproves the hypothesis then you can falsify it and write it off.

Further, it is more substantiated than his claims that it's not true.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> Why do you think people are still buying Canon ILCs for video? It's certainly not for their feature set.


Sure, no one cares about DPAF as a reliable AF for video capture. Sure, the rest of the system, lenses, etc., are not relevant.



Stereodude said:


> It aligns with all the observable evidence.


Does it, though? Well, at any rate it aligns with your conformation bias, which is evidently sufficient for you.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Aug 23, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> It aligns with all the observable evidence.



Kindly share your observable evidence for peer review. That's how demonstrating your hypothesis is true works.

_If people didn't have a legacy of using Canon for video back from when they were the best and established the market and have a pile of EF glass virtually no one would still be buying Canon ILCs for video. _**needs citation*

_Established video shooters are still using Canon because they invested in the Canon EF lens system back when Canon was the best and these shooters haven't bailed yet because they're financially invested in the EOS/EF system..._ **needs citation*

_They're heavily influenced because they see established legacy users with Canon and they're emulating what they see figuring the established legacy Canon users must be using them for a good reason. _**needs citation*

_If new brand came to the market with a series of ILCs with the exact video features found in Canon cameras at the same prices they would not be competitive in the market and would not sell well. _**needs citation*

The first three you could perhaps address with polling. The last one you won't be able to substantiate without coming to market with said products.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 23, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Sure, no one cares about DPAF as a reliable AF for video capture. Sure, the rest of the system, lenses, etc., are not relevant.


Which Canon ILC has full sensor 4K oversampled video and DPAF again?


----------



## 3kramd5 (Aug 23, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> Which Canon ILC has full sensor 4K oversampled video and DPAF again?



Incidentally, which non canon ILC has that?


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 23, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Incidentally, which non canon ILC has that?


You're really asking me which Canon competitor makes a camera with a Canon exclusive feature???  There are numerous ones with full sensor 4K oversampled video and PDAF. I await your retort exhorting the superiority of DPAF to PDAF and how it's just not the same thing.

Incidentally Canon is capable of making a full sensor 4K camera with DPAF. They just aren't going to let the plebes have it in the consumer line-up just yet lest they impact the sales of their $6.5k model. They slow roll features just fast enough to keep the faithful from defecting.


----------



## Kit. (Aug 23, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> Incidentally Canon is capable of making a full sensor 4K camera with DPAF. They just aren't going to let the plebes have it


I don't want a fan in my photo camera, thank you very much.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Aug 23, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> You're really asking me which Canon competitor makes a camera with a Canon exclusive feature???  There are numerous ones with full sensor 4K oversampled video and PDAF. I await your retort exhorting the superiority of DPAF to PDAF and how it's just not the same thing.



Typically I wouldn’t ask rhetorical questions. In the context of a your post and the one it replied to, it was reasonable.

What one must understand: some people value some things. Other people value other things.

As an example, I’ve never used DPAF and I don’t care about it (being in a camera I purchase, that is) and especially don’t exhort anything about it. In a technical discussion I may be moved to point out that DPAF isn’t superior to PDAF, but rather, that it IS PDAF, achieved a certain way that’s only available in products from Canon and Samsung.

Let me ask this: do you go on various brand-centric websites lambasting business decisions? Sony forums complaining that (like canon) they only sell global shutter cameras to people willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars? I’ve never understood the point. If brand a offers a value proposition you like and brand b doesn’t, go buy something from brand a. If they both do but different capabilities, buy both. Or buy neither.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> Incidentally Canon is capable of making a full sensor 4K camera with DPAF. They just aren't going to let the plebes have it in the consumer line-up just yet lest they impact the sales of their $6.5k model. They slow roll features just fast enough to keep the faithful from defecting.


Of course it’s not possible there’s a technical reason for that. Heat management? Remember the 1DX and 1DC where they had to engineer a big heat sink in the latter to deal with that problem?

No, no…you’ve decided it’s Canon being malicious and you’re going to ride that particular hobbyhorse until it breaks down. Have fun!


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 23, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> You're really asking me which Canon competitor makes a camera with a Canon exclusive feature???  There are numerous ones with full sensor 4K oversampled video and PDAF. I await your retort exhorting the superiority of DPAF to PDAF and how it's just not the same thing.
> 
> Incidentally Canon is capable of making a full sensor 4K camera with DPAF. They just aren't going to let the plebes have it in the consumer line-up just yet lest they impact the sales of their $6.5k model. They slow roll features just fast enough to keep the faithful from defecting.


Er the C200 is an S35 sensor, that's 24mm x 18mm, or a crop sensor! There is a massive difference between a fan cooled non weatherproof native 9mp crop sensor 'full sensor'' (all of the frame) readout and a *'full frame*' (sized, 36mm x 24mm) sensor or any sized sensor with 30-60MP doing a full sensor readout and resampling in real time to 8mp/4k.


----------



## Stereodude (Aug 23, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Of course it’s not possible there’s a technical reason for that. Heat management? Remember the 1DX and 1DC where they had to engineer a big heat sink in the latter to deal with that problem?


Can you explain how it generates more heat in the sensor to do full sensor readout for 1080p than for 2160p? The same amount of data comes out of the sensor in both cases.



> No, no…you’ve decided it’s Canon being malicious and you’re going to ride that particular hobbyhorse until it breaks down. Have fun!


So what's your theory? Are you a subscriber to what seems to be the prevalent theory that Canon is just not as capable as their competitors? I guess they should have invested more in R&D with all the money their making from their #1 marketshare.



privatebydesign said:


> Er the C200 is an S35 sensor, that's 24mm x 18mm, or a crop sensor! There is a massive difference between a fan cooled non weatherproof native 9mp crop sensor 'full sensor'' (all of the frame) readout and a *'full frame*' (sized, 36mm x 24mm) sensor or any sized sensor with 30-60MP doing a full sensor readout and resampling in real time to 8mp/4k.


And? It doesn't change that pretty much every other main player offers ILCs that can do full sensor readout oversampled "4K" on "high" MP sensors. Is your argument is that Canon is just less capable than Sony, Panasonic, Olympus, etc.? I don't buy that, but either way customers can't get the same video features from Canon in their consumer ILCs that they can from their competitors.


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 23, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> And? It doesn't change that pretty much every other main player offers ILCs that can do full sensor readout oversampled "4K" on "high" MP sensors. Is your argument is that Canon is just less capable than Sony, Panasonic, Olympus, etc.? I don't buy that, but either way customers can't get the same video features from Canon in their consumer ILCs that they can from their competitors.



No, I'm just saying the example you posted to 'prove' whatever it is you are trying to prove is not a relevant comparison.

To the second part, so what? If you need the features others offer buy a different brand. What difference does it make?


----------



## Kit. (Aug 23, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> So what's your theory? Are you a subscriber to what seems to be the prevalent theory that Canon is just not as capable as their competitors?


They need to work with two times as much pixels as their competitors (5D4/EOS R sensor is actually a 60-megapixel one). It's the price one pays for DPAF.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 24, 2019)

Stereodude said:


> So what's your theory? Are you a subscriber to what seems to be the prevalent theory that Canon is just not as capable as their competitors? I guess they should have invested more in R&D with all the money their making from their #1 marketshare.


My hypothesis is that Canon has data/modeling supporting the decision in terms of increased profit. Could be through upselling, could be through reduced costs. Likely their data support it not mattering to a sufficient number of buyers to justify inclusion. It’s exceedingly unlikely that their motivation was to ‘treat their customers with disdain’ (your words).


----------



## YuengLinger (Sep 3, 2019)

uri.raz said:


> HDD failure is inevitable, which is why I backup photos to the cloud (when I finish processing them) and optical media (once a month).
> 
> Flash memory cells can be written to a limited number of times, then it fails. Good memory cards do wear leveling, but it only delays the inevitable. Then, other parts might fail too. E.g. I bought a SanDisk Extreme PRO 256GB USB 3.1 Solid State Flash Drive, and the memory controller failed after a few months of light use. According to Amazon reviews, this is a common problem with this product.
> 
> With today's technology, buying from good brands may give the impression that the odds are ever in your favor, but failure is a real possibility.



Recently I just decided to toss a couple CF cards, the two Transcend 32GB cards I bought with my 5D III back in 2012. Never had a problem with them, but just felt like it was time. 

Did I throw away perfectly good cards?


----------



## uri.raz (Sep 3, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> I would have expected the usb controller to be part of the digic chip. That, combined with the fact that the R does support USB3 I think Canon decided to segmentize it. M*, RP -> USB2, R, Rx, Rs -> USB3



Even if the USB controller is a part of the digic chip, its design was probably bought from 3rd party. The decision to use one of the other might have to do with price, e.g. royalties and fabrication.


----------



## Michael Clark (Sep 4, 2019)

chrysoberyl said:


> Thanks for the feedback! I expected my 80D to equal my 5DIV in resolution and it definitely does not for moon shots, macro, etc. I conclude my expectations are just out of line.
> 
> The thing about crop glass working better has me a little mystified; it is my understanding that using FF glass on crop means the sensor uses only the best part of the lens, avoiding the edge issues, especially vignetting.



That it does. But it also magnifies what flaws and resolution limits are in the center of the lens' light circle.

To display an APS-C image at the same size as a FF image, the enlargement ratio has to be 1.6X more for the APS-C camera. That means to get the same number of lines per millimeter on the finished image, the lens used for the APS-C camera needs to be 1.6X sharper than the lens used on the FF camera. If a lens used on a FF body has a resolving capacity of 850 lpmm (measured on the sensor), one would need a lens with 1,360 lpmm to get the same amount of resolution at the final display size.


----------



## chrysoberyl (Sep 9, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> That it does. But it also magnifies what flaws and resolution limits are in the center of the lens' light circle.
> 
> To display an APS-C image at the same size as a FF image, the enlargement ratio has to be 1.6X more for the APS-C camera. That means to get the same number of lines per millimeter on the finished image, the lens used for the APS-C camera needs to be 1.6X sharper than the lens used on the FF camera. If a lens used on a FF body has a resolving capacity of 850 lpmm (measured on the sensor), one would need a lens with 1,360 lpmm to get the same amount of resolution at the final display size.



Thank you; an excellent way of explaining it.


----------

