# So what makes a camera a "pro" camera?



## wsmith96 (Oct 14, 2014)

Coming back from a brief photography sabbatical, I've found quite a few posts on the forum regarding qualities that would make a camera considered professional vs. a camera considered non-professional. But that got me thinking, what is it that makes a camera a professional camera? Is it build quality? Is it megapixels or the size of the sensor? Is it a monetary figure that one must cross, or is it a camera that can perform in any situation even though most of those situations won't be experienced by the owner? I'm under the current believe that if you are making money on what you do, then the tool is a professional tool whether it is a 1Dx or a 110 film camera. I'd like to pose the question to the forum here. What are your opinions?


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 14, 2014)

The person holding it.


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## Maui5150 (Oct 14, 2014)

Build, Performance, Features.

A solid photographer can take great photos with crap equipment and a n00b can screw up even the best of top end gear. 

A pro camera is often more metal allow than plastic and has better weather sealing.


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## wsmith96 (Oct 14, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> The person holding it.


I agree.


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## wsmith96 (Oct 14, 2014)

Maui5150 said:


> Build, Performance, Features.
> 
> A solid photographer can take great photos with crap equipment and a n00b can screw up even the best of top end gear.
> 
> A pro camera is often more metal allow than plastic and has better weather sealing.



If you shoot studio, and are making a living from it, do you need weather sealing?


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## Don Haines (Oct 14, 2014)

wsmith96 said:


> Maui5150 said:
> 
> 
> > Build, Performance, Features.
> ...


A "pro" camera is the right tool for the job....

I saw a tv add for a dishwasher and to my eye, it looked like the action shots were taken with a GoPro  definitely a case where weather sealing was needed for a studio shot... but I get your point, almost all the time weather sealing is not needed in a studio.


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## Don Haines (Oct 14, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> The person holding it.


+1000


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## jdramirez (Oct 14, 2014)

The person behind it which is a sentiment many if us share. 

It takes vision, understanding, and a willingness to fall, but in a positive way.


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## Hjalmarg1 (Oct 14, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> The person holding it.



agree 100%


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## jdramirez (Oct 14, 2014)

Dig rev tv on YouTube does a bit where they have photogs who are well respected, presumably, use cheap cameras to recreate their magic. It is great.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 14, 2014)

The right tool in the hands of someone who knows how to use it wisely. 

This may mean 1DX 
Or it can mean Go Pro 
Or it could mean SL1 

If someone gets paid to take pictures using a Rebel, he is playing such an important profession like any other. If the specified job does not require 1DX even EOS-M may be sufficient for this use.


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## MichaelHodges (Oct 14, 2014)

The sensor. Peripherals can be overcome by a competent photog.


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## RLPhoto (Oct 14, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> The person holding it.


And making money with it.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 14, 2014)

Generally, we refer to professional grade tools as those which are better made, have tighter tolerances, are rugged and reliable. 

Certainly, a Pro can and will use whatever tool is available. If he cannot afford Snap-On tools, he might use some from a dollar store. A person who depends on a tool for making a living certainly wants tools that will get the job done and not fail him when he needs them to work. Professional grade cameras and other tools are made to be rugged and reliable, more so than the consumer grade tools.

Professional Grade DSLR's have been around for many years now, they originally had very few MP, but were professional quality.


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## iron-t (Oct 14, 2014)

A pro camera is one that is suitable for the professional photographer's work. I think there is a specific sense in which OP is using the term, one that we can all understand. It is not a "pro's camera," which would be whatever camera is being used by a person who makes his/her living in photography. It would be a collection of characteristics that most would agree are important for the professional user. This of course will have changed significantly over time, as camera specs and capabilities have dramatically expanded in the last 10 years.

I think we can agree that a pro camera should be built to be durable. The shutter should be rated to last for several years of high frequency use. It needs to be reliable. An accidental drop should not be capable of destroying it. This is one reason most people wouldn't consider a 6D or 70D to be a pro camera, whereas a 5D mark II could be considered a pro camera depending on the use to which it is put (action sports? It's not pro for that).

Put it this way: among current wedding/event photogs, how seriously would you take someone who is using a Rebel XS (1000D) as his/her only camera? What about a sports photog using a 60D? I'd feel more confident that the "pro" was serious about his/her work if they were using 7D (sports/wildlife), 5D or 1D series bodies.


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## Menace (Oct 14, 2014)

RLPhoto said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > The person holding it.
> ...



+1

The photographer.


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## unfocused (Oct 14, 2014)

MichaelHodges said:


> The sensor...



Absolutely wrong answer. There isn't an APS-C or Full Frame sensor made today that is not "pro quality" and most other sensor formats today are pro quality under the right conditions, even camera phones. 



neuroanatomist said:


> The person holding it.



That's the right answer.


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## eli452 (Oct 14, 2014)

wsmith96 said:


> ... Is it a monetary figure that one must cross... What are your opinions?


My two cents: the angle of the cost/performance graph from one/two models beneath.


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## Khnnielsen (Oct 14, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> The person holding it.



Clearly that isn't the whole answer. Canon have a line of cameras aimed at professionals with a distinct set of features, which appeal the kind of people, who take pictures for a living.


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## NancyP (Oct 14, 2014)

The user of the camera makes money with it. 
That can cover anything from an iPhone to a view camera, in theory. 
I think that pro event photographers should have two bodies, and I would think better of a photographer who showed up with two 60Ds than one that showed up with a single 5D3 and no backup.

"Pro grade" cameras are generally those with predicted higher shutter actuations to failure (1D 400K, vs Rebel 100K) and weather-proofing. And, I might add, pro grade cameras can be covered by CPS for priority repair, loaners, etc.


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## wsmith96 (Oct 14, 2014)

Khnnielsen said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > The person holding it.
> ...



This is the point that I'm getting at. For example, the 5D series camera I have considered to be the ultimate wedding photographer's camera. Now along comes the 6D. It is generally plastic, it does not have all of the bells and whistles that the 5D series do, but it does have some that the 5D series do not have. The 6D can also be considered a fantastic wedding photographer's camera. So why would the 6D be less of a professional camera than that of the 5D? 

My theory is that it is the professional who sets the criteria for what they consider to be professional grade equipment. They are the one's making the money and most professionals I know, in any profession, will spend only the right amount of money on the right tool to do the job.

I recently went with a wedding photographer to a shoot to be an unpaid apprentice to see what it's all about. I was stunned when he whipped out a Nikon 5100 and a kit lens, and that was all that he had. It went against all that I believe and had read in the forums here on CR. There was no backup, it was a crop sensor camera with an average lens. He didn't have a flash either. I was expecting at least 2 cameras, a few lenses in the f/2.8 or larger range with one being a 70-200, another being 24-70 and the last a macro of some kind. Maybe an assortment of flashes and portable modifiers. At the end of the day, though, the bride was happy. 

Now I still would bring at least two cameras to such an event for redundancy purposes, but looking beyond that - the bride was happy. That is when I started to question what I believed a professional level camera should be. I can see the build quality being a valid differentiator, but I'm failing to see anything else at the moment. Even support levels are questionable to me since that is a choice that, in the example given above, CPN does not want to offer the level of service to a T3 that they would provide to a 5DIII.

I don't believe there is a right or wrong answer here. From the responses so far, it appears that "professional grade" falls to the perspective of the professional and what they value in their respective tools. This was a fun thread to post - thank you for all of your responses.


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## Mitch.Conner (Oct 14, 2014)

This is a question for the underpants gnomes.


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## wsmith96 (Oct 14, 2014)

Mitch.Conner said:


> This is a question for the underpants gnomes.



 actually, it was meant to make people think. Cheers, and what are gnomes doing in your underpants?


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## wsmith96 (Oct 14, 2014)

iron-t said:


> Put it this way: among current wedding/event photogs, how seriously would you take someone who is using a Rebel XS (1000D) as his/her only camera? What about a sports photog using a 60D? I'd feel more confident that the "pro" was serious about his/her work if they were using 7D (sports/wildlife), 5D or 1D series bodies.



So, it is then the perception given to the client? Does that go back to the notion that a camera is more professional based upon the amount of money it is, or because, in the example provided above, they are physically bigger? I do agree that a 1D is very impressive looking on the sidelines.


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## jdramirez (Oct 14, 2014)

wsmith96 said:


> iron-t said:
> 
> 
> > Put it this way: among current wedding/event photogs, how seriously would you take someone who is using a Rebel XS (1000D) as his/her only camera? What about a sports photog using a 60D? I'd feel more confident that the "pro" was serious about his/her work if they were using 7D (sports/wildlife), 5D or 1D series bodies.
> ...



I could use the original 1d and it would only be marginally effective at capturing the shots that we take now (outside of ideal light)... big doesn't mean better...


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## Khnnielsen (Oct 14, 2014)

wsmith96 said:


> iron-t said:
> 
> 
> > Put it this way: among current wedding/event photogs, how seriously would you take someone who is using a Rebel XS (1000D) as his/her only camera? What about a sports photog using a 60D? I'd feel more confident that the "pro" was serious about his/her work if they were using 7D (sports/wildlife), 5D or 1D series bodies.
> ...


It is difficult to make a list of features. 

Sometimes it is the little things, that is important, when you are talking about pro gear. For example pro camcorders from Panasonic and Sony have more or less the same button layout. That way I am instantly familiar with a broad range of cameras across different brands.


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## Besisika (Oct 14, 2014)

unfocused said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > The person holding it.
> ...


This one reminds me Brad Pitt's mission to Israel in the film Wold War Z.
Even though it totally makes sense that "the person holding it" is the right answer, and even though "everybody" seems to be convinced about it, I will try to be that 13th man of that film and please let me know how wrong I am.
Let me begin by adding a salt to the wound.
To me that statement is just a big lie to your own self, no offense intended at all. That is what I feel.

In his glorious days, give a mandolin to Jimmy Hendrix. Do not advertise it. And let's see how many people will be satisfied vs how many would through him rotten tomatoes.
Michael Jordan wouldn't wear any shoes fabricated by some African villager when he wants to face Magic Johnson, and even the mighty Ronaldo wouldn't put any shoes on him to play the world cup, except the one the branch he has tested.

Frankly, a professional gear is the best among the best, not any, it is the one a professional would choose when facing his most feared nightmare. 
I dare that every single one of you would not pick up any gear when facing the most important assignment of your life. Whatever gear you pick, that is the professional grade gear for you.
Tell me if I am wrong.
Back to the question, only 1DX has been the professional gear I have met. It simply works for me and I have no doubt in my mind, whenever I have it in my hand that if I fail, it wouldn't be the gear, it would be me. The fps, the built, the buffer, double CF card, powerful battery. 5D3 is not at all.

Result, result and consistent result in an acceptable time and cost by the customer; that is my definition of professional gear, never a one time success by chance.

Again, I understand your position. I am just trying to be that 13th man in that film. Now, it is time for you to tell me I am wrong and thanks for sincere answer.


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## pwp (Oct 14, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> The person holding it.


+1 Hah! These were the exact four words that formed quickly for me as soon as I saw the thread subject line.

-pw


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## Orangutan (Oct 14, 2014)

The question is missing context. The preliminary question is to define what "professional photographic work" is. After you answer that question you can answer the equipment question: it's the gear needed to accomplish professional photographic work to the satisfaction of both the photographer and the client.


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## pwp (Oct 14, 2014)

OK, I'll come back to this one. While "the person holding it" is the first and extremely accurate answer, for the OP it's a fairly glib answer too.

I look to a pro-grade camera to be well enough made and have adequate performance benchmarks and ergonomics to not get in the way of the process of achieving great images. And that will vary according to the sort of projects you're likely to take on. When I'm working well, the camera almost disappears from my consciousness and I'm just getting the images. 

So while a 5D3 will deliver in spades for an events projects or most commercial projects, it's not necessarily going to suit a sports shooter or news shooter who will look to a 1DX class of camera, one that will hack the daily grind in often robust conditions and in any weather. Some advertising, high-end art and landscape shooters genuinely need medium format. For some the perfect working camera will be a high megapixel Nikon with a tilt-shift lens.

I saw a piece on TV about a news shooter working in Afghanistan who carried four or five iPhones, swapping over the sim card to the next iPhone as the battery ran flat. He could be highly unobtrusive, almost invisible. He could do a quick edit sitting in a car or truck and send images to his news-service instantly, all from the iPhone. So the iPhone is the perfect "pro" camera for him.

-pw


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## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 14, 2014)

Suppose I need a photographer shoot a wedding with me. If I had to choose between the options below, I decide by the number 2: 

OPTION 1 - Only one 5D classic + 28-135mm 

OPTION 2 - One T5i with grip + 17-55mm + 430EXii + other T5i + Sigma 50mm Art


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## Halfrack (Oct 15, 2014)

Too many folks here are equating a 'pro camera' with a 'pro photographer'. A pro photographer can use the tools available to create a great image. A pro camera is a camera designed with durable components and has a longer R&D cycle compared to a consumer camera. A pro camera should work in any condition, take a licking and keep on ticking. A pro photographer can plot their way through a situation and will select gear based on their experience, not based on what is advertised as 'pro'.

IMHO 5D mk3 is a low end pro camera, with a lot of advanced technology, while the 1Dmk4/1Dx are pro cameras.


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## Orangutan (Oct 15, 2014)

Halfrack said:


> Too many folks here are equating a 'pro camera' with a 'pro photographer'. A pro photographer can use the tools available to create a great image. A pro camera is a camera designed with durable components and has a longer R&D cycle compared to a consumer camera. A pro camera should work in any condition, take a licking and keep on ticking. A pro photographer can plot their way through a situation and will select gear based on their experience, not based on what is advertised as 'pro'.
> 
> IMHO 5D mk3 is a low end pro camera, with a lot of advanced technology, while the 1Dmk4/1Dx are pro cameras.



There are pro photographers who would never choose a 1D-series for their studio work. Some studio photographers believe that anything short of MFD is not a pro camera, yet a Hasselblad probably can't take the same "licking" that a 1D can.

Furthermore, longer R&D cycles are irrelevant: if Sony releases a FF SLR next week with 80MP and 16 stops of DR (with other expected performance) on a $3k body made from plastic, you can bet a bunch of pros are going to grab one and make money from it.

A pro camera is any device a pro photographer uses to accomplish professional work Beyond that, it's a question of which professional camera suits a particular area of photography


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## Don Haines (Oct 15, 2014)

As so many have said, it is the person behind the camera.... and being a pro, that person will pick the right tool for the job.... be it a 1Dx, a GoPro, or an iPhone. Everything has it's time and place and a real pro will not limit their options...


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 15, 2014)

Khnnielsen said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > The person holding it.
> ...



In different geographies, Canon places different cameras on either side of that enthusiast/pro 'line' – so even within Canon the definition is arbitrary. AFAIK, the 6D isn't in the pro category anywhere, yet it's fairly equivalent to the 5DII and both are used by many pro photographers. 

What about pro lenses? Canon's L-series is 'pro' but the red L stands for 'luxury' (an inessential, desirable item). 

I have a 1D X and ~$30K worth of lenses, I don't know many (and none personally) professional photographers that can spend on gear what I spend on my hobby. I know pros who make a living (a quite decent one) shooting with 20D bodies. 

Canon wants to sell cameras (and lenses) to people who take pictures, whatever they're called.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 15, 2014)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Suppose I need a photographer shoot a wedding with me. If I had to choose between the options below, I decide by the number 2:
> 
> OPTION 1 - Only one 5D classic + 28-135mm
> 
> OPTION 2 - One T5i with grip + 17-55mm + 430EXii + other T5i + Sigma 50mm Art



If that's how you prefer to make your decision, ok...after all, it's your decision. Personally, I'd choose based on the quality of their *portfolios*, not the gear they used to develop them.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 15, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > Suppose I need a photographer shoot a wedding with me. If I had to choose between the options below, I decide by the number 2:
> ...


Obviously, the technical ability and artistic vision of the photographer is more important than the camera. As the subject of this topic is the camera, I did a comparison between a camera supposedly amateur and other professional. 

Actually I saw a photographer shooting a paid job, with the combination: *5D classic + 28-135mm + Nikon SB600 flash*.


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## candc (Oct 15, 2014)

To me pro quality means that it is built to hold up to heavy everyday use with the features needed to do a specific job without unnecissary features to get in the way or break.


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## pwp (Oct 15, 2014)

dilbert said:


> It has to have the word "pro" written on it. If those three letters are missing, it is not a "pro" camera.



That's funny! ;D



Halfrack said:


> Too many folks here are equating a 'pro camera' with a 'pro photographer'.



That's right. Put me behind the wheel of a professional race car and I'd probably smash it at the first corner. 1DX ownership will make most photographers deliriously happy but it won't turn anyone into a pro. 

Ahhh....the minutia of definitions, it's the pixel peeping of language.

-pw


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## dryanparker (Oct 15, 2014)

RLPhoto said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > The person holding it.
> ...



Yes to Neuro's point, but not necessarily yes to RL's.

Not every professional makes a living (or any money at all) using their camera. Think of all the fantastically talented hobbyists out there, or perhaps fine art photographers. These are "professionals" in terms of their knowledge, capacity and portfolio quality, but it's not necessarily about money.

That said, I'll concede to RL that "professionals" are often described by some associations (ASMP, for instance) as those making a living with their camera.


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## Besisika (Oct 15, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon wants to sell cameras (and lenses) to people who take pictures, whatever they're called.


+1
I am with you on that one.
To me, many will find me wrong, professional photographers are business people. It is the business side of the job that makes them special, that differenciates them from enthusiasts.
My question is, professional gear; is that the best gear for the job or the gear a professional uses? Don't get me wrong, why would you use a 5D mk iii for weddings if you can use a 1DX? The silent shoot? I own both and I have used both during weddings.
In my mind, correct me if I am wrong, a business person would calculate the benefit, cost vs income. I doubt they would buy the best gear if a lesser cost one can do the job correctly.
So my question to the OP is did you have in mind the best gear for the job or the gear used by people who makes money of it.
Looking at myself, I spent 3 or 4 times on the hobby part of my photography than the making money. I am one of those who shoots for money in order to pay for the amount used to buy the gear for my hobby.


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## RLPhoto (Oct 15, 2014)

dryanparker said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


I'm positive that there are many photogs who don't make money that are 100x better than most pros, but nonetheless they are not professionals. They are advanced amateurs, which is not a bad thing.

A professional takes pictures and makes money with the photos. Some pros are absolute garbage, others not so bad but consistent and others are really good. I have overhead costs that involve things such as extra taxes, a LLC, insurance and other stuff that being a pro is required (or recommended for good business.) The line is blurred some with weekend semi-pro shooters but they still are professionals who get paid.

so a pro camera is the camera that makes me money.


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## bdunbar79 (Oct 15, 2014)

You're all wrong. Only the D810 is a pro camera and you all know it!


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## Don Haines (Oct 15, 2014)

bdunbar79 said:


> You're all wrong. Only the D810 is a pro camera and you all know it!



No! GoPro! The name says it all.... Go Pro.....

Nobody would mount 29 D810's to their car, but they would (and did) with GoPro 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6wI_lBj3mc


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## kphoto99 (Oct 15, 2014)

A pro camera is the one that has the P(ro) setting ;D


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## DominoDude (Oct 15, 2014)

A "pro" camera is the one a pro attaches his/hers lenses to, to get the work done. It's a camera which its user don't feel the need to debate the pros and cons of, since it is a reliable tool that can be depended on.


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## expatinasia (Oct 15, 2014)

I do not think a pro camera has anything to do with the person holding it. 

A pro will choose the best he can use (buy/borrow/etc) for the job in front of him/her. If that person can only get his hands on a Samsung Galaxy Note 3 to take pics, that does not make that phone a pro camera.

I think manufacturers decide which are the pro models, whether it be a set of knives, a camera or laptop (though in the latter they are called business models rather than pro).

Just look at cars. All Mercedes-Benz will get you from a to b, but the S series may do it in a lot more comfort and style than the lowly C series.

If you shoot sports, then it would be the top of the range Nikon or Canon combined with the best glass you can get. If you shoot landscape or architecture, you may be more tempted by the 5D Mark III then the 1D X for example.

If a pro shoots with a 50D that does not make the 50D a pro model, it does however make it that pro's model.


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## Orangutan (Oct 15, 2014)

expatinasia said:


> I think manufacturers decide which are the pro models, whether it be a set of knives, a camera or laptop (though in the latter they are called business models rather than pro).



But what criteria do they use to make that determination? For any pro criterion you choose I can probably find a counter-example. About the only criteria I can think of that might have no exceptions would be profit margin and level of support from the manufacturer. Here are some proposed criteria and why each doesn't hold.

Image quality: 6D arguably has equal/better IQ compared to 1DX

Physical toughness: Pro studio photographers don't need this (e.g. MFD)

Speed: Pro landscape or studio photographers don't need this (e.g. MFD)

You get the idea.


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## pwp (Oct 15, 2014)

expatinasia said:


> I think manufacturers decide which are the pro models, whether it be a set of knives, a camera or laptop (though in the latter they are called business models rather than pro).


Errm, being pedantic for just a moment...I have a Macbook _Pro_ laptop. Must make me a pro! Whoo-hoo!
This is an entertaining thread! 8) I hope the OP has got something out of it.

-pw


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## expatinasia (Oct 15, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > I think manufacturers decide which are the pro models, whether it be a set of knives, a camera or laptop (though in the latter they are called business models rather than pro).
> ...



The manufacturer sets the pro level, and I do not know what that is. But generally speaking it is the best overall performance and life of product etc. Whether it be kitchen knives or cameras, the manufacturer will more often than not say that this model is aimed more at pros over an inferior product etc. That's just the way it is. If a new set of knives comes out and has one benefit, or even two over the pro set then I would imagine that most manufacturers would consider putting those benefits into their new pro line when the time comes to do so.

Same applies for everything, pans, ovens, laptops, cars. etc.



pwp said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > I think manufacturers decide which are the pro models, whether it be a set of knives, a camera or laptop (though in the latter they are called business models rather than pro).
> ...



Haha! But now you are confusing a name for a product line. Manufacturers like Dell and Lenovo have business lines (the pro equivalent of a camera) which are made to last longer and more often than not have much higher quality build and components than their consumer lines. Even though those consumer lines may have some advantages (lighter, more stylish etc).

But for some to say it is the people behind the camera that makes the camera a pro camera makes no sense to me. Like I said before a 50D does not become a pro camera because it is used by a pro, it is just a pro's camera.


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## Bernd FMC (Oct 15, 2014)

RLPhoto said:


> I'm positive that there are many photogs who don't make money that are 100x better than most pros, but nonetheless they are not professionals. They are advanced amateurs, which is not a bad thing.
> 
> A professional takes pictures and makes money with the photos.



+1

The only Difference between Pro and competent Amateur - is making Money ( with it ) or not.
A Pro Camera ist a Pro Camera when a Pro use it, in my Business every tool is a Pro Tool when
i use(buy) it - and i´ll be able to mark them as a buy for Pro uses to the Governourment - and this
Costs will reduce my Profit - and so it reduces the Amount of my Taxxes i have to Pay.
If i bought a expensive Cam. - i will not be automatically a Pro, if i earn not enough Money as a Pro
with my expensive Camera, i will not be a Pro for al long Time ;D .

IF i would be a Pro, i would buy that Kind of Camera which does the Job for me, including an
Backupbody - because a fail of the Device would prohibit my Work for the Day .
( And better Bodys with 2 Cards recording parallel to avoid Cardfailures )

The most important Piece for a good Photo is the Person behind the Camera, but only when he/her
get Paid for the Work he/her is a Professional.

I am only an Amateur in Photographics, but i am a Pro in my Business .
My (Semi)Pro 5DM3 does not make me a Pro  .

Edit: and my 5DM3 is an Amateurbody because i am an Amateur 

Only my 2 ct´s

Bernd


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## The Bad Duck (Oct 15, 2014)

Clearly it has to say "pro" in the name of the camera.

So... canon pro-1 must be the only canon pro camera, right?


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## ewg963 (Oct 15, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> The person holding it.


+100000000000000


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## FEBS (Oct 15, 2014)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Suppose I need a photographer shoot a wedding with me. If I had to choose between the options below, I decide by the number 2:
> 
> OPTION 1 - Only one 5D classic + 28-135mm
> 
> OPTION 2 - One T5i with grip + 17-55mm + 430EXii + other T5i + Sigma 50mm Art



I can not choose who would be the pro in this case. Having more gear does not imply to me that it is a pro. Having a 1dx does also not mean to me that he can deliver nice photos. 

So, I join the group that agree with Neuro that the pro is not the gear but the photographer itself.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 15, 2014)

expatinasia said:


> Just look at cars. All Mercedes-Benz will get you from a to b, but the S series may do it in a lot more comfort and style than the lowly C series.



So the S series is for professional drivers? Why are so many taxi cabs Toyotas and Fords, and so many limos Lincolns and Chryslers? 

However, Mercedes does make vehicles for professional drivers. Here's one:


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## Orangutan (Oct 15, 2014)

expatinasia said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > expatinasia said:
> ...





> The manufacturer sets the pro level





> But generally speaking it is the best overall performance and life of product etc.



These seem like two distinct, sometimes contradictory criteria. The first one is purely marketing, meaning there's not really any objective criterion. The second seems vague. These criteria are more likely to tell us useful information about the marketing department than the products.


----------



## 300D (Oct 15, 2014)

Isn’t the unimog something of overkill for studio work?
Surly a professional would use a less rugged camera indoors! ;D


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## AcutancePhotography (Oct 15, 2014)

What makes a camera a "pro" camera?

1. If the camera marketing department calls it a pro camera
2. If a professional photographer uses it

I don't think there is any other "standard" for what ever the term "pro camera" means. 

I would opine that any camera I use is, by definition, not a pro camera. ;D


----------



## pwp (Oct 15, 2014)

The Bad Duck said:


> Clearly it has to say "pro" in the name of the camera.
> So... canon pro-1 must be the only canon pro camera, right?


Canon Pro-1! Whoa! (_Rhymes with Pro.._.) Now there's a killer of a camera. This is embarrassing, but I had the misfortune to know someone whose neighbors brother-in-law actually had one of the ten or so of these cameras that were sold in this country. 

-pw


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## Sporgon (Oct 15, 2014)

Yes it is fair to say that any camera that is being used by a _real_ professional is a pro grade camera, whatever it is.

Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but by the sounds of it I don't think many here realise the abuse that a real pros gear has to take, especially if it is portable stuff like a dslr and lenses. It has to be able to take that abuse and keep working, same for lenses. It also has to function satisfactorily under stressful, rushed situations. Take the 650D for example, a camera I had for a short while. The rear controls were so doll-like I couldn't feel them half the time. Take the 6Ds top command wheel, it's so softly clicked I can't feel it when I'm having to work fast. The rear wheel is even worse. What about lenses that have elements glued in place with three spots of glue like the Tamron 24-70. Just recently I had put the camera plus 24-105L on the dashboard in a Land Rover, had to pull out really quick in traffic and the camera shot off backwards and crashed into the footwell. I didn't even have to consider any damage. A friend of mine in Australia had a 1DII + 70-200 knocked over on a full height tripod onto a Tarmac pavement; no issues. 

So if you're going to baby your gear you can get away with almost any camera that offers full control, esthetic satisfaction apart, and not withstanding unforeseen accidents, but gear that must keep working to keep paying the photographer has to be more robust.


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## keithfullermusic (Oct 15, 2014)

A pro level camera must have:

1) a sensor with 14+ stops of DR
2) the ability to shoot 4K at 120fps minimum
3) the ability to take clean shots of the back of the lens cap
4) the highest score possible on DxO
5) the ability to post to Facebook
6) the ability to find jobs
7) a price of at least $3,500

I'm sure i forgot a few things, but that's what I consider the bare minimum of a "Pro-Level Camera."


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## expatinasia (Oct 15, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > Just look at cars. All Mercedes-Benz will get you from a to b, but the S series may do it in a lot more comfort and style than the lowly C series.
> ...



Haha! I knew the car example was a bad example when I wrote it, and I think you know that. But a professional taxi driver will drive what he is allowed or given. This varies all over the world, and the company or individual that does that as a profession will try to choose a car that is economical, easy/cheap to repair with lots of spare parts around and likely to run for a long time. A professional racing driver will need a different car. But if you swap the two around and give the taxi driver the racing car and the racing driver the taxi, that does not suddenly make the taxi car a professional racing car simply because it is being driven by the racing driver.

Generally speaking, a manufacturers top of the range product is aimed at pros. Take knives, pans, laptops (the business lines), and I presume microscopes etc. Even washing machines, professional grade washing machines are different from a consumer washing machine, it has nothing to do with the operator.

My point being that a 50D in the hands of a pro is still not a pro camera, just that pro's camera. In the same way that a 1D X in the hands of an amateur does not make that amateur a pro.

There is the romantic notion that the best camera is the one in your hands at that moment, and that is true. But it is not true that a camera suddenly becomes pro grade just because it is being used by a pro.


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## Orangutan (Oct 15, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> It has to be able to take that abuse and keep working, same for lenses. It also has to function satisfactorily under stressful, rushed situations.



Is a Hasselblad MFD a "pro" camera? Does it meet your above criteria? If the answer the first is yes, and to the second is no, then your criteria may be indicative, but are not definitive.


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## RLPhoto (Oct 15, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > It has to be able to take that abuse and keep working, same for lenses. It also has to function satisfactorily under stressful, rushed situations.
> ...


It can't be a pro camera because it has a pop-up flash. XD


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## wsmith96 (Oct 15, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > You're all wrong. Only the D810 is a pro camera and you all know it!
> ...


To me it sounds like a recommendation ;D ;D ;D


----------



## Sporgon (Oct 15, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > It has to be able to take that abuse and keep working, same for lenses. It also has to function satisfactorily under stressful, rushed situations.
> ...



The Hasseldlad MFD most definitely meets that criteria.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 15, 2014)

expatinasia said:


> Generally speaking, a manufacturers top of the range product is aimed at pros. Take knives, pans, laptops (the business lines), and I presume microscopes etc.



My Calphalon Commercial cookware was bought at Macy's, and my Wusthof pro knives came from Williams-Sonoma...not a restaurant supplier. I've never seen a 'pro' microscope. General Motors ran a marketing campaign for their Professional Grade trucks...I know a few people who use them to commute to their professional office jobs. 

The top end is aimed at *people who are willing and able to pay* the higher price. "Pro" is purely a marketing distinction.


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## wsmith96 (Oct 15, 2014)

pwp said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > I think manufacturers decide which are the pro models, whether it be a set of knives, a camera or laptop (though in the latter they are called business models rather than pro).
> ...



The word "pro" used in a product name is often used to entice people to buy up - especially in compute equipment. As an example, I don't remember the models, but one of the series of macbook pro's was pretty much identical to a lower range HP business laptop. A friend of mine was able to run a bios hack and run OSX from 2 ~$2000 macbook on a ~$450 HP laptop. Of course, the HP didn't have the all metal body, but that was the primary difference. 

http://www.hackcollege.com/blog/2012/10/26/hp-probook-4530s-hackintosh-macbook.html

Yes, I did get something out of this thread. I had read in another thread that having a better auto focus system on the 6D would make it more professional. To me that didn't make sense as there are many others out there that use the 6D that find the camera fine. What I believe the person was saying was that the 6D's capabilities didn't meet their needs, but that doesn't necessarily make the 6D less of a professional camera - it just wasn't the right one for them.

I found that most are struggling to provide a definitive list of attributes that make a camera a professional camera. I also found that comments kept shifting to the person behind the camera, rather than focusing on the camera itself - which comes back to the difficulty answering the question. The one attribute that has been repeated, and that I also agree with, is build durability to maintain the operation of the camera through daily use. Beyond that, I think it's up to the owner and their needs.


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## Orangutan (Oct 15, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > Generally speaking, a manufacturers top of the range product is aimed at pros. Take knives, pans, laptops (the business lines), and I presume microscopes etc.
> ...



I think we're having another one of those "is" vs "ought" arguments.

The "is" group asserts (and I agree) that a high-end camera is largely bought by people willing to pay for it, most of whom will not use it for professional work.

The "ought" group asserts that a high-end camera ought to be built and marketed to professionals, and it's fine if wealthy amateurs also want to buy one.

I don't believe there's a clear definition of a pro camera, but I'm pretty sure Canon has a pro marketing department.


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## wsmith96 (Oct 15, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > Generally speaking, a manufacturers top of the range product is aimed at pros. Take knives, pans, laptops (the business lines), and I presume microscopes etc.
> ...



If you are able to go into the kitchen at a restaurant, I bet you won't find calphalon or wusthof knives either.


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## bdunbar79 (Oct 15, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > You're all wrong. Only the D810 is a pro camera and you all know it!
> ...



This is exactly why I love this site so much! ;D


----------



## Khnnielsen (Oct 15, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > Generally speaking, a manufacturers top of the range product is aimed at pros. Take knives, pans, laptops (the business lines), and I presume microscopes etc.
> ...



The pro designation is not without meaning. There are products, which is almost entirely bought for professional purposes, and are tailored to suit the professionals.

Sachtler tripods for example. The most expensive model can carry a payload of 140 kg, which is aimed at studio cameras. I have never heard of anyone spending 200k on a studio camera for hobby purposes. No one buys a ENG camera for fun either.


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## gsealy (Oct 15, 2014)

*Professional level equipment*

A professional level camera is one that meets the performance requirements of the person (the professional) using it. People who make a living by taking pictures or shooting videos must have solid equipment that will reliably perform out in the field. The requirements could come in many forms depending on the particular needs of the shooter. In some cases it could be weather sealing or it could be shutter actuations. In other cases it is the quality of the image or it could be auto focus speed and accuracy. The point is that when a person's livelihood depends on the equipment they are using then that equipment has to deliver not some of the time, but ALL of the time. 

I recently attended a golf tournament. There were pros there racing around from hole to hole taking lots and lots of pictures of the players from all angles around the greens and tee boxes. If you were close enough, then you would hear brrraaattttt.... brrraaatttt.... as the camera fired off 10 or 12 shots catching the players. It sounded like a machine gun going off. They were using 1D's that gave them the FPS and AF that they needed. They probably took thousands of pictures that day. Could these guys afford to have a camera that locked up or failed to focus to get those shots? No way. They wouldn't get paid.


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## kphoto99 (Oct 15, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> The top end is aimed at *people who are willing and able to pay* the higher price. "Pro" is purely a marketing distinction.



Nuro has hit the nail on the head. Adding anything else to this discussion is pointless.


----------



## The Bad Duck (Oct 15, 2014)

pwp said:


> The Bad Duck said:
> 
> 
> > Clearly it has to say "pro" in the name of the camera.
> ...



You know.... the pro-1 has a sensor made by... sony!!!


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## sgs8r (Oct 15, 2014)

The features. Pro cameras have advanced features that pros need and/or know how to take advantage of. Manufacturers generally have more than one "pro" camera because there is more than one kind of pro and they may need different (but overlapping) sets of features. These include things like:

- high durability
- high frame rate
- high performance, highly configurable AF
- mirror lockup
- high dynamic range
- better noise performance
- 100% viewfinder
- usability features (e.g. extra buttons/wheels/etc. that make it fast and easy to change settings

etc.


Saying "the person behind the camera" is glib, but wrong. Are all the cheap cameras in the Digital Rev series now "pro" cameras because they are being used by pro photographers? Does a camera switch from pro to non-pro (and back) depending on who is holding it? Obviously not. As with other tools, whether it is a "pro" tool or not is independent of whether a pro is actually using it. The results, of course, depend on both the tool and the user. 

So pro cameras? In the current Canon line, it is the 1Dx and 5D3. 7D? Not really (and I have one). It's kind of a transitional camera for poorer pros that can't afford the 1DX and the lenses to go with it. Similarly, the 6D is mostly for those who can't swing the cost of the 5D3 (it may have a small sensor advantage because it is newer, but for pros this is trumped by the AF and usability features of the 5D3).


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## NunoMatos (Oct 15, 2014)

If the gear doesn't matter, then I change my 1100d for your 1Dx


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## IgotGASbadDude (Oct 15, 2014)

According to most concert venues a "professional" camera is one with a detachable lens. This is a stupid answer which shows they're still mentally stuck in the '80's when the difference between a standard film camera and a "point and shoot" was night and day. Back then those good images were valued (I think) because they had re-sell value in magazines. Made sense back in the day . . .

Today, they're afraid of my 5D3 + Art 50 lens because it "looks" professional. What they're to ignorant to understand is the Gx1 Mark II they're letting me use will do similar quality.

The most hilarious part is they won't let me bring in the 5D3, yet I can stand there all night using my iPhone 6 to record video & stills. And under certain lighting circumstances, even that thing produces pretty darn good still images.

Everyone these days has a camera at concerts. I wish bands/mangagement/venues etc. would use their brains and encourage people to record the best images and video they could.

Maybe I'm missing something here? ???


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## NancyP (Oct 15, 2014)

Neuroanatomist, here's a "pro" microscope for you: http://phys.org/news/2013-01-three-photon-microscopy-biological-imaging.html
Image the full thickness of a live mouse's cortex! But you must have seen this - I put it up here for the entertainment of other geeks.


----------



## Orangutan (Oct 15, 2014)

sgs8r said:


> The features. Pro cameras have advanced features that pros need and/or know how to take advantage of. Manufacturers generally have more than one "pro" camera because there is more than one kind of pro and they may need different (but overlapping) sets of features. These include things like:
> 
> - high durability
> - high frame rate
> ...


Does a pro body need all of them? Some of them? Certain specific combinations? 




> Saying "the person behind the camera" is glib, but wrong.



No, it's a way of saying that each pro needs a different subset of the features you have in your list above, and that each pro will choose a camera that meets their needs. 

I once met a pro photojournalist who used to travel to unstable areas. He would take several cheap DLSRs because he knew one or more would be taken from him (requested). He'd pull out (and hide) his flash cards frequently, and be prepared to surrender the camera. It was his choice to use cheap gear because in the end he'd have his photos.

"the person behind the camera" is the one who chooses the right tool for the job, and uses it to produce professional work.


----------



## Orangutan (Oct 15, 2014)

NunoMatos said:


> If the gear doesn't matter, then I change my 1100d for your 1Dx



No one said gear doesn't matter. The point is that there is no objective, indisputable definition of the dividing line between pro and non-pro gear. Therefore, the only thing that can be said is that any camera used by a competent pro for professional work is a pro camera.


----------



## AcutancePhotography (Oct 15, 2014)

sgs8r said:


> - high durability
> - high frame rate
> - high performance, highly configurable AF
> - mirror lockup
> ...



I would opine that there are some professional photographers who don't need this. Studio product photographers who have absolute control over the subject and lighting and plenty of time, for example.


----------



## dstppy (Oct 15, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> sgs8r said:
> 
> 
> > - high durability
> ...


It's like asking for IS on a Tilt-Shift lens . . . or a truck-bed on a Ferrari.

High-Reliability (not exactly durability) seems, to me, to be the only real requirement, aside from the obvious things like MFA, full manual operation etc, and as good specs as regular consumer stuff . . .

Formal Portraits aren't Candids, Landscape isn't sports . . .


----------



## c.d.embrey (Oct 15, 2014)

*Any camera used by a Professional is a Pro Camera. Simple as that.* 

Yes, that means that the *iPhones* used by Photo Journalists in war zones are Pro Cameras  Also the* 4x5 Film Cameras* used to shoot *Arizona Highways* magazine covers are Pro Cameras


----------



## Mitch.Conner (Oct 15, 2014)

wsmith96 said:


> Mitch.Conner said:
> 
> 
> > This is a question for the underpants gnomes.
> ...



On the adult cartoon series "South Park", the underpants gnomes are a group of gnomes who seek to make profit by stealing people's underpants.

Their formula for success is: Step 1: Steal underpants... Step 2: ______ ... Step 3: Profit!

Step 2 is unknown.

So, when I said, "This is a question for the underpants gnomes" - what I was implying was that the answer to your question is:

Step 1: Call a camera "Professional grade" or "Pro".... Step 2: __?___...... Step 3: Profit!

In other words, it's marketing in my opinion.


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## Larry (Oct 15, 2014)

Mitch.Conner said:


> On the adult cartoon series "South Park", the underpants gnomes are a group of gnomes who seek to make profit by stealing people's underpants.



Do they steal underpants that are being worn at the time? ( I am tempted by "step 3 - profit", but can't figure out how to go about step 1.)

Thanks for any tips, :-\

[ PS - I think Conner is a much better last name than McConnell! (...mentioned only because I'm sure my opinion is very important to you.  ]


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## AcutancePhotography (Oct 15, 2014)

keithfullermusic said:


> http://www.k2focus.com I'm currently updating it, but the layout is done.


Did you post this in the wrong thread? Looks like it belongs in the "show your website" thread


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## sgs8r (Oct 15, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> sgs8r said:
> 
> 
> > The features. Pro cameras have advanced features that pros need and/or know how to take advantage of. Manufacturers generally have more than one "pro" camera because there is more than one kind of pro and they may need different (but overlapping) sets of features. These include things like:
> ...



As I said, there are different kinds of pros who need different features. A sportshooter doesn't care about mirror lockup. A landscape pro doesn't care about high frame rate. My list was simply meant to be examples of features you typically see on a camera marketed to pros and you wouldn't see on an entry-level camera.



Orangutan said:


> sgs8r said:
> 
> 
> > > Saying "the person behind the camera" is glib, but wrong.
> ...


My point is that "pro" (or "pro-level" or "pro-targeted") is a characteristic of the camera and not the person using it. The user doesn't determine whether a camera is a "pro camera" any more than the camera determines whether the user is a pro. I think that we would all agree that a 1DX is a "pro camera", whether it is being used by Peter Reed Miller or Donald Trumps's niece who is thinking about getting into photography. We don't need to know who the user is to say that it is a "pro camera". 

Similarly, the vast majority would agree that a Rebel is not a pro camera. Why? Because pro cameras have a lot of features like those in my list (which wasn't meant to be exhaustive). Non-pro cameras have few of those features. Peter Reed Miller may use a Rebel (temporarily, because his 1DX was lost or stolen, or he's working in a bad area), but that doesn't make it a pro camera. Just a non-pro camera being used by a pro. He's a pro; the camera is not. He may get good results---better results than a average non-pro with a 1DX---but that's because he's using his "pro talent" to compensate for his non-pro camera.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 15, 2014)

NancyP said:


> Neuroanatomist, here's a "pro" microscope for you: http://phys.org/news/2013-01-three-photon-microscopy-biological-imaging.html
> Image the full thickness of a live mouse's cortex! But you must have seen this - I put it up here for the entertainment of other geeks.



Cool stuff!

Kinda my point, though...where is it called 'pro'? I have scopes costing from $1,000 to $800,000 – none of them are called 'pro microscopes'.


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## AcutancePhotography (Oct 15, 2014)

Perhaps the cogent questions are "what makes a camera professional quality?" and "what makes a manufacturer call a camera "pro".

The answers may be quite different. 

I think there is a lot of professional equipment in other industries that does not have the name pro on it. 

If you have to tell customers your product is pro, it ain't. ;D 

Professionals know what is pro quality without needing the marketing department tell them so. 

None of the professional equipment I use in my non-photography career was ever marked "pro".


----------



## Orangutan (Oct 15, 2014)

sgs8r said:


> My point is that "pro" (or "pro-level" or "pro-targeted") is a characteristic of the camera and not the person using it. The user doesn't determine whether a camera is a "pro camera" any more than the camera determines whether the user is a pro. I think that we would all agree that a 1DX is a "pro camera",



I get your point; however, the reason I disagree with your conclusion is that there's no objective criteria to separate pro from non-pro. At the extremes, e.g. 1DX vs Rebel, we will probably agree. But what about in the middle?

In the end, it devolves into the famous Potter Stewart test.


----------



## Mr_Canuck (Oct 15, 2014)

Whatever the general marketing messaging momentum tells us is a pro camera. Or, likely, whatever is most expensive and provides the greatest advantages. Just like a pro bicycle.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 15, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> sgs8r said:
> 
> 
> > My point is that "pro" (or "pro-level" or "pro-targeted") is a characteristic of the camera and not the person using it. The user doesn't determine whether a camera is a "pro camera" any more than the camera determines whether the user is a pro. I think that we would all agree that a 1DX is a "pro camera",
> ...


Yes. Appearance of a camera can radically change the perception people have of it with accessories...


----------



## Pinchers of Peril (Oct 15, 2014)

I thought it had to say "Leica" somewhere on it?


----------



## Don Haines (Oct 15, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> Perhaps the cogent questions are "what makes a camera professional quality?" and "what makes a manufacturer call a camera "pro".
> 
> The answers may be quite different.
> 
> ...



Got about 8 million dollars of test equipment in the lab at work..... none of it is marked as "pro"....


----------



## kphoto99 (Oct 15, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> sgs8r said:
> 
> 
> > My point is that "pro" (or "pro-level" or "pro-targeted") is a characteristic of the camera and not the person using it. The user doesn't determine whether a camera is a "pro camera" any more than the camera determines whether the user is a pro. I think that we would all agree that a 1DX is a "pro camera",
> ...



Which camera would a professional choose today:
EOS-1D or Rebel T5i


----------



## Orangutan (Oct 15, 2014)

kphoto99 said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > sgs8r said:
> ...



6D or 7DMkII?


----------



## c.d.embrey (Oct 15, 2014)

sgs8r said:


> > "the person behind the camera" is the one who chooses the right tool for the job, and uses it to produce professional work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's all about the *right tool for the job*. Your list has little or nothing to do with why a pro would pick a tool. As an example; a pro photographer needs to be inconspicuous (dangerous area), would he pick a 1Dx with a 70-200mm f/2.8 lens, a SL1 with a kit lens or maybe an iPhone ??? 

At the other end our pro needs absolutely the best image quality. Does he pick a Canon 1Dx or a Phase One IQ 280 (80Mp, ISO 35-800, .7 FPS, 3 Auto Focus Points). Most people will agree that the Phase One IQ 280 is a pro camera. But it's specs prevent it from being a pro camera according to your list


----------



## wsmith96 (Oct 15, 2014)

Pinchers of Peril said:


> I thought it had to say "Leica" somewhere on it?



or either NASA or Air Force


----------



## Don Haines (Oct 15, 2014)

Part of what I do at work is photography, and I get paid for it..... I am most certainly a professional, so that makes me a "pro" photographer.

This is the imaging gear I use....

Cannon 7D, many would consider it to be a "pro" camera.
70-200F4.0 IS lens, an "L" lens, many consider it a "pro" lens.
100F2.8L macro lens, an "L" lens, a "pro" lens
18-200 Canon "superzoom lens.... if I am a pro, then it must be a "pro" lens  (I did not buy or recommend it!)
800F5.6 lens... definitely a "pro" lens........
used to have a "rebel", dropped it 110 feet onto a concrete pad... it did not survive, but it was still "pro" equipment right up until it hit.....

Olympus "Tough" p/s camera... works great in heavy rain.... obviously a "pro" camera.

iPhone camera.... an inspection camera.... if you shove the 7D and lens through a 1 1/2 inch access port it stops working  Since it is used professionally, it must be a "pro" camera.

An assortment of USB webcams, used to let me remotely see where satellite dishes are really pointed to, and to observe/record cloud cover in the signal direction.... since this is a professional use, they must be "pro" cameras.

And yes, I have used a GoPro to record information in field trials.... once again, since it is a professional use, it must be a "pro" camera, and it is one of two pieces of kit that I have that have "pro" in the name. (The other is a 3/4 inch drive socket set)

Get the point? A pro will use whatever the appropriate tool is to get the required job done and not get hung up on some designation by people on the internet.


----------



## skoobey (Oct 15, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> The person holding it.



Absolutely.


----------



## pwp (Oct 15, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> NancyP said:
> 
> 
> > Neuroanatomist, here's a "pro" microscope for you: http://phys.org/news/2013-01-three-photon-microscopy-biological-imaging.html
> ...



Must be time to trade-up Dr Neuro...

-pw


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 15, 2014)

pwp said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > NancyP said:
> ...



I was wrong, it seems...

http://www.promicroscope.com/

I had no idea pro microscopes were so cheap compared to my systems!! ;D


----------



## wsmith96 (Oct 16, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> pwp said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Remember what we said earlier about equipment with Pro in the name


----------



## Rofflesaurrr (Oct 16, 2014)

Any camera body that is eligible for CPS.


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## steliosk (Oct 16, 2014)

"So what makes a camera a "pro" camera?"

Selecting the right tool for the job and NOT just the photographer behind it.

EX. even the most skillful photographer won't deliver soft wedding pictures with shalow DOF taken with an i-phone or a compact camera.

As it comes to hardware, the better helps most, but its not always needed.

Sure its best if you have the cleanest FF sensor and fast and sharp lenses to shoot in low light conditions costing a 5 digit price range

But it doesn't mean that you can't do eg, landscape with an entry level camera with a 3 digit price range.

So i disagree. The photographer only is NOT good enough without the appropriate hardware for each job, and its always BEST to demand from companies to upgrade the hardware and not being afraid and safe by telling that the photographer is a god with a magic wand that can capture everything.


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## surapon (Oct 16, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> The person holding it.



+1,000 times of agree of this statement " The person holding it."


----------



## expatinasia (Oct 16, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > Generally speaking, a manufacturers top of the range product is aimed at pros. Take knives, pans, laptops (the business lines), and I presume microscopes etc.
> ...



I do not see why you think where you bought something has to do whether it is pro-grade or not.

You are right to say "The top end is aimed at *people who are willing and able to pay* the higher price".

But is also true to say those products tend to be of a better build, quality and lifetime expectation which are things that pros look for!

I know nothing about microscopes, but I would doubt that a consumer grade microscope is the same as those used at multi-million dollar R&D departments or in hospitals that demand the best. 

Are you saying that if a trained doctor is using a consumer-grade microscope then it automatically becomes a pro-grade microscope?!

No of course it does not. 

Same as if a pro photographer uses a 10D or a point and shoot or a phone to capture his shots. It does not make those cameras pro grade, and as such they are not pro cameras.


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## Don Haines (Oct 16, 2014)

expatinasia said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > expatinasia said:
> ...



In general, doctors use very low end microscopes... if at all. Now lab technicians.... they have decent gear... but if you really want to see the good stuff go to a physics lab for a scanning tunneling electron microscope so you can see those individual atoms... 

A real "pro" goes for the gear that get's the job done, not the very best. A doctor in a fertility clinic is not going to get the very best.... they want to watch how the sperm moves, not kill it and check to see if all the atoms are in the right place


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## sgs8r (Oct 16, 2014)

c.d.embrey said:


> It's all about the *right tool for the job*. Your list has little or nothing to do with why a pro would pick a tool. As an example; a pro photographer needs to be inconspicuous (dangerous area), would he pick a 1Dx with a 70-200mm f/2.8 lens, a SL1 with a kit lens or maybe an iPhone ???
> 
> At the other end our pro needs absolutely the best image quality. Does he pick a Canon 1Dx or a Phase One IQ 280 (80Mp, ISO 35-800, .7 FPS, 3 Auto Focus Points). Most people will agree that the Phase One IQ 280 is a pro camera. But it's specs prevent it from being a pro camera according to your list



My list was meant to be illustrative, not definitive or exhaustive. I thought this was obvious (note the trailing "etc."). One would certainly add "large sensor" and "high pixel count" to the list (along with "weather sealing" "dual card slots" and many other things. Few CR readers would doubt that the Phase One is a "pro camera". I also think few would think that an SL1 is one also, even if used by a pro. A pro would use an SL1 only if the primary concern(s) were non-photographic (e.g. personal safely). Sometimes the right tool is a non-pro camera. 

Like most of photography, this is subjective to some degree and debating definitive criteria is a waste of time. My point was that _most_ of us could easily classify _most_ cameras pretty quickly as pro or non-pro by looking at the features. Why? Because pro cameras have a goodly number of features that most pros understand and appreciate and a sizable subset need and would be willing to pay up for (differing subsets for different features and types of photography). On the other hand, the typical non-pro (*not* CR readers!) would not understand most of the features ("Mirror lockup? Eh?"), the features wouldn't be part of their purchase criteria, and they wouldn't pay up for them. This is true across many fields. Experienced, sophisticated users understand, appreciate, and exploit the special features of higher-end tools whereas inexperienced, less-sophisticated users do not. Most pros are experienced and sophisticated users. Most non-pros are not.


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## Don Haines (Oct 16, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > Generally speaking, a manufacturers top of the range product is aimed at pros. Take knives, pans, laptops (the business lines), and I presume microscopes etc.
> ...


I worked my way through school cutting meat in a butcher shop. Knives were a disposable item. You sharpened them several times a day and they did not last. No butcher would consider getting "pro" knives... and those silly handles are not meant for someone who uses them 8 hours a day.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 16, 2014)

sgs8r said:


> On the other hand, the typical non-pro (*not* CR readers!) would not understand most of the features ("Mirror lockup? Eh?"), the features wouldn't be part of their purchase criteria, and they wouldn't pay up for them.



My Rebel T1i had mirror lockup. Apparently I had a pro camera way back then. 

EDIT: Canon omitted that feature from the EOS M, and Sony left it out of the a7 series. I guess that makes all of those consumer cameras.


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## expatinasia (Oct 16, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> In general, doctors use very low end microscopes... if at all. Now lab technicians.... they have decent gear... but if you really want to see the good stuff go to a physics lab for a scanning tunneling electron microscope so you can see those individual atoms...
> 
> A real "pro" goes for the gear that get's the job done, not the very best. A doctor in a fertility clinic is not going to get the very best.... they want to watch how the sperm moves, not kill it and check to see if all the atoms are in the right place



So are you saying that there is no such thing as "pro grade gear"?

My point is that there is, and it is up to the manufacturer to label it as such.

The 1D X is obviously a pro camera, especially for sports shooters. The 400 f/2.8 ii is also a pro lens. Is it only bought by individual pros? No, agencies, publishing houses, enthusiasts and those that want the best purchase it too.

Does it fit every pros needs? No, but that does not make it any less pro-grade.

If a pro sport shooter sits on the sidelines and shoots pictures with his Samsung Galaxy Note 3 are you seriously suggesting that that phone is a pro piece of photographic kit?

You may say that is a bad example, but would you say that if the guy was using a 5D Mark III because he could not afford the 1D X? But if so, what if you can't afford the 5D Mark III or even II, but you can afford the Samsung Galaxy Note III which double up as a phone when you are not shooting......... 

To say that it is the operator which makes his or her tool a pro grade piece of kit is ludicrous in my mind. But it is not a big deal, it is just my humble opinion.


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## Don Haines (Oct 16, 2014)

expatinasia said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > In general, doctors use very low end microscopes... if at all. Now lab technicians.... they have decent gear... but if you really want to see the good stuff go to a physics lab for a scanning tunneling electron microscope so you can see those individual atoms...
> ...


What I was trying to say is that a pro will use the appropriate level of gear for the job at hand. I don't think that anyone would dispute that as you move towards higher end gear that image quality improves or that cameras like a 1DX increase the odds of capturing that shot under difficult conditions.....and in general captureing the shot is the highest priority for a pro, but it is the task that determines gear and priorities, not some "pro" designation on the gear.

A good example of this is inspection photography. The goal is to determine if there is visible wear and to determine if there is adequate grease on the gears, look for signs of rust, etc.. The access port is 1.5 inches by 6 inches, so the camera must fit through the slot. The camera used takes crappy pictures, but it fits into the gear and the pictures are good enough for the task at hand. I have a so called "pro" camera and L glass in a pelican case on a shelf behind me, but it is the wrong tool for the job, despite being a vastly superior camera. On the other hand, when things are spread out on the bench I love that 100L macro lens.....


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## Helios68 (Oct 16, 2014)

For me a pro body should have at least key features. For a "standard" pro who shoots a lot of events/action/weddings:
+FF body
+High ISO performance usable at least at 6400 or 12800 ISO
+Fast and accurate AF system which can lock in low light conditions (-3IL ?)
+Weather/dust sealed
+High burst rate at least 7/s
+Two cards slots with at least one CF and suitable for automatic backups
+Integrated or external battery grip
+Programmable shortcuts to software functions
+State of the art ergonomics, user should be able to shoot for hours without being disturbed by a poor balance for example
+High MP is not necessary. 20 or 24MP should be enough.
+Integrated remote control for speelites
+Wifi and GPS are plus


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 16, 2014)

expatinasia said:


> So are you saying that there is no such thing as "pro grade gear"?
> My point is that there is, and it is up to the manufacturer to label it as such.



There is higher end gear and lower end gear. Calling the higher end gear 'pro grade' is just a marketing tactic used by some manufacturers to label their higher end stuff. As pointed out earlier, car makers use letters or numbers in the naming scheme for differentiation...that really has nothing to do with professional drivers. "Pro" gear is just an arbitrary marketing designation, it doesn't connote anything about the intended use.


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## expatinasia (Oct 16, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> What I was trying to say is that a pro will use the appropriate level of gear for the job at hand. I don't think that anyone would dispute that as you move towards higher end gear that image quality improves or that cameras like a 1DX increase the odds of capturing that shot under difficult conditions.....and in general captureing the shot is the highest priority for a pro, but it is the task that determines gear and priorities, not some "pro" designation on the gear.
> 
> A good example of this is inspection photography. The goal is to determine if there is visible wear and to determine if there is adequate grease on the gears, look for signs of rust, etc.. The access port is 1.5 inches by 6 inches, so the camera must fit through the slot. The camera used takes crappy pictures, but it fits into the gear and the pictures are good enough for the task at hand. I have a so called "pro" camera and L glass in a pelican case on a shelf behind me, but it is the wrong tool for the job, despite being a vastly superior camera. On the other hand, when things are spread out on the bench I love that 100L macro lens.....



I think you are perfectly right, and I agree with you 100%.

I think that no matter what the job, the person/company doing it will have different choices as to the level of quality of the tools they decide to use/purchase for the job at hand.

As you say a 1D X, while ideal for sports, will not work for the inspection camera example you used. And, I would presume that there are different quality cameras on the market that are specifically designed for that job, and it depends on the person/company to decide which best fits their needs/budget.

I should just clarify what I meant by a manufacturer designating a product as pro-grade. What I meant is that they will often (depending on product) have consumer lines and then possibly pro-sumer and then pro. These labels do not need to be on the product, it is just what the manufacturer is aiming the product to be. Canon designed the 1D X to be used by professional photographers all over the world, especially sports photographers, and it designed it, and built it as such. But Canon also fully knows that consumers whether they be enthusiasts or something else will also buy the top of the line as well. It does not fulfil the demands of every job, nor every professional photographers' demands but it is a pro-grade camera.


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## sandymandy (Oct 16, 2014)

The pro camera is the one that imposes the least technical limits on your photography adventure. And just simply said the latest technology available at the moment.


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## Occams_Cat (Oct 16, 2014)

A 'pro'camera is any camera a professional chooses to use. The specs don't matter, only the end result.


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## Helios68 (Oct 16, 2014)

Occams_Cat said:


> A 'pro'camera is any camera a professional chooses to use. The specs don't matter, only the end result.



That is also right. They are "pro" who also do ugly pictures with a 5D mkIII. The photograph takes the picture and not the camera itself. But in extreme conditions... You can do what you want if you have poor light for example every camera will not perform well enough. So specs really matter but not as much as some might think.


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## IgotGASbadDude (Oct 16, 2014)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Yes. Appearance of a camera can radically change the perception people have of it with accessories...













Funny you mention this and even posted pics. I came up with the same idea/logic to allow me to use my 5D3 at concerts. The low light ability of this camera makes it hard to leave at home. I figured (successfully) that the guys at the front door of concerts only go by how the camera LOOKS. 

Part 1) Purchase the 40mm pancake. It's 2.8 and maybe not the best or fastest lens, but it LOOKS like a fixed lens.

Part 2) Leave the battery grip at home (OMG this is hard as I LOVE the feel & balance it provides). 

Part 3) Bring extra batteries, just in case. (Never needed them but ya never know).

And there you go. A "non-professional" camera setup. 8) I'm sure someday I'll encounter a security guard that will say, "no way, dude that's a 5DMark III". 'Till then, every other MORON at the front door won't know the difference between this and some crappy point an shoot.


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## c.d.embrey (Oct 16, 2014)

sgs8r said:


> My point was that _most_ of us could easily classify _most_ cameras pretty quickly as pro or non-pro by looking at the features ...



Only *non-pros* care. For some *non-pros* the _right too_l is a camera that makes him/her feel like a *pro*.



> This is true across many fields. Experienced, sophisticated users understand, appreciate, and exploit the special features of higher-end tools ...



I always thought that *middle-aged men* bought a Red Porsche because they were trying to impress *younger women*. Now you inform me that they appreciate Horsepower & Handling


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## dstppy (Oct 16, 2014)

c.d.embrey said:


> sgs8r said:
> 
> 
> > My point was that _most_ of us could easily classify _most_ cameras pretty quickly as pro or non-pro by looking at the features ...
> ...



Working at the capital of Porsche purchases in the Northeastern US, most people either buy the brand either simply to impress other people (not necessarily the other sex) or for the actual performances.

A Red Porsche just says "Ticket me"; most tend to be Black or Silver in this neck of the woods, the occasional White or Yellow do show up.

Now, Ferrari, that is what is used to attract younger women of a certain inclination. There's absolutely no secret or shame from those that do.


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## AshtonNekolah (Oct 16, 2014)

To me a pro camera is the camera that you are one with, many people have cameras that they still don't know its strength and weakness, you should know how to use your camera without thinking, if your still chimping around then your not understanding your camera. Noise and high ISO's are controlled by experience and knowledge now the newest of bodies. Having new gear don't mean you have the best pictures but it will help make things easer. This is my humble opinion.

After reading most of the treads, for real, pro really means paid, so the camera you make money from is your pro, that's my straight answer to the what makes a camera a "pro" hahaha


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## Mitch.Conner (Oct 16, 2014)

Larry said:


> Mitch.Conner said:
> 
> 
> > On the adult cartoon series "South Park", the underpants gnomes are a group of gnomes who seek to make profit by stealing people's underpants.
> ...



No. I'd link to a Youtube video showing it, but it contains mild profanity.


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## Deleted member 91053 (Oct 17, 2014)

Occams_Cat said:


> A 'pro'camera is any camera a professional chooses to use. The specs don't matter, only the end result.



Good point - my 1DX is distinctly amateur, especially in my hands! A friends Canon 40D is a much more professional camera - well she sells a lot more images than I do!


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## sgs8r (Oct 17, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > So are you saying that there is no such thing as "pro grade gear"?
> ...



You've just replaced "pro" with "high end". If you like that term better, then what makes a camera "high end". In the original question I interpreted "pro" to be a qualitative term, not official marketing (does Canon, Nikon, or Phase use "Pro" in their naming?). So "pro" as in "designed for professionals", "targeted at professionals", "used as the primary workhorse by a sizable fraction of professionals using the brand", etc., 

I have to say that I'm surprised at how this seemingly innocuous question seems to have devolved into another version of the "it's the photographer, not the camera" debate.


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## sgs8r (Oct 17, 2014)

c.d.embrey said:


> sgs8r said:
> 
> 
> > My point was that _most_ of us could easily classify _most_ cameras pretty quickly as pro or non-pro by looking at the features ...
> ...



If you mean that pros don't care whether is called a "pro" camera? Of course they don't (are any actually called that?). Do pros choose their _*workhorse*_ camera because it has a _lot_ of features like those on my list? Absolutely. Otherwise they'd save money and get a Rebel. I'm sure the vast majority of pros that use Canon (for example) use a 1DX or 5D3 as their primary workhorse. Why? Because they have features not found on other Canons. Features that help them create images more easily and miss fewer shots. Could they make great images with other camera xyz? Sure, maybe, but it would probably be harder. In the absence of other constraints, they would use the 1D or 5D because it has features that make their job easier and the images better. That's why they own it. These features make it a "pro" camera, as in "the choice of professionals," "appealing to professionals," "designed for and targeted at professionals."


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 17, 2014)

sgs8r said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > There is higher end gear and lower end gear. Calling the higher end gear 'pro grade' is just a marketing tactic used by some manufacturers to label their higher end stuff. As pointed out earlier, car makers use letters or numbers in the naming scheme for differentiation...that really has nothing to do with professional drivers. "Pro" gear is just an arbitrary marketing designation, it doesn't connote anything about the intended use.
> ...



I think you've missed my point, it's not about 'pro' in the name. High end gear is designed for people who can/will pay more for it. Of course such gear has characteristics that differentiate it from other products in the lineup, but 'intended for professionals' isn't one of them. I'd bet a much more sizable fraction of professional photographers use xxD bodies than 1-series bodies. The 5DII was a widely used by pros, the 6D is essentially the same camera, but Canon's websites which break down pro vs. enthusiast bodies list the 6D among the latter. Arbitrary marketing decisions.


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## Orangutan (Oct 17, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon's websites which break down pro vs. enthusiast bodies list the 6D among the latter. Arbitrary marketing decisions.



This.

I've seen a fair number of assertions on this forum that the 1D-series are Canon's only pro bodies, and the 5D-series and below are consumer or prosumer cameras. There's no dispute that more expensive models in the product line tend to have better features on average. The question, however, is whether there are certain specific characteristics which distinguish a "pro" camera from a "consumer" camera. So far just two assertions seem to have gone unrefuted:

[list type=decimal]
[*]Pros seem to be able to make a living with a range of cameras, from smartphones to FF to MFD to large format film. A photographer's needs will determine which is the appropriate tool.
[*]In general, the more expensive the (digital) camera, the more abuse it can take without losing function.
[/list]


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## Helios68 (Oct 17, 2014)

Helios68 said:


> For me a pro body should have at least key features. For a "standard" pro who shoots a lot of events/action/weddings:
> +FF body
> +High ISO performance usable at least at 6400 or 12800 ISO
> +Fast and accurate AF system which can lock in low light conditions (-3IL ?)
> ...



I forgot this ones: reliability and durability (shutter higher than 150.000)


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## AcutancePhotography (Oct 17, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> [*]In general, the more expensive the (digital) camera, the more abuse it can take without losing function.[/list]



I would not want to take a Hassy out in the damp dirty woods. More expensive does not necessarly mean more rugged.


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## Orangutan (Oct 17, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > In general, the more expensive the (digital) camera, the more abuse it can take without losing function.
> ...




I've never used one, but a previous poster asserted that Hasselblads were quite durable. 

Of course, if you have a Hassy, you probably also have two assistants to set up a tent and hold umbrellas, right?


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 17, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Canon's websites which break down pro vs. enthusiast bodies list the 6D among the latter. Arbitrary marketing decisions.
> ...



That's what Canon Australia seems to think. Canon Europe has a different opinion. Canon USA doesn't segregate them. There's no 'official' Canon designation, because it's all about marketing.


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## Sporgon (Oct 17, 2014)

Canon didn't fit the 5DIII with a stainless steel bottom plate for 'consumers' - honestly. It not even been used by a Canon as a marketing feature, it's there because the base of pro cameras tend to get hammered, and a nice touch by Canon. Stainless is also a lot harder ( pun intended) to form than the likes of mag alloy.


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## keithfullermusic (Oct 18, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> keithfullermusic said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.k2focus.com I'm currently updating it, but the layout is done.
> ...



Ha, you're right. Sorry about that.


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## Don Haines (Oct 18, 2014)

Not sold by Best Buy


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## tcmatthews (Oct 18, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Not sold by Best Buy



I think it depends on the Best Buy mine has Canon 5D III and other relatively high end cameras. If you really felt like it you can order a 1dx from Best Buy . http://www.bestbuy.com/site/canon-eos-1d-x-digital-slr-camera-body-only-black/6304299.p;jsessionid=3701442F8BA8C909E6B058C19C5127C1.bbolsp-app01-121?id=1218726452741&skuId=6304299&st=canon 1Dx&cp=1&lp=1

I guess you do not consider a 1dx pro enough.

What is even more crazy is you could order a Canon 5D III with the 24-105L from Walmart and have in store pick up. At least if they were in stock. I also so a Nikon Df on there in black and Silver. The Df is in stock.


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## Don Haines (Oct 18, 2014)

tcmatthews said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Not sold by Best Buy
> ...



smiley face.... it is not a serious comment....

but it does bring up a very interesting example about how much the lines have blurred. At one point you could only get the higher end cameras from specialty shops and "real" camera stores. Now you can get them almost anywhere... very few stock them, but everyone will order them for you with a day or two delivery time (more in remote areas).


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## c.d.embrey (Oct 18, 2014)

sgs8r said:


> If you mean that pros don't care whether is called a "pro" camera? Of course they don't (are any actually called that?). Do pros choose their _*workhorse*_ camera because it has a _lot_ of features like those on my list? Absolutely. Otherwise they'd save money and get a Rebel. I'm sure the vast majority of pros that use Canon (for example) use a 1DX or 5D3 as their primary workhorse. Why? Because they have features not found on other Canons. Features that help them create images more easily and miss fewer shots. Could they make great images with other camera xyz? Sure, maybe, but it would probably be harder. In the absence of other constraints, they would use the 1D or 5D because it has features that make their job easier and the images better. That's why they own it. These features make it a "pro" camera, as in "the choice of professionals," "appealing to professionals," "designed for and targeted at professionals."



I shoot in a studio, using Profoto packs and Canon FF cameras (if Canon made a 56mm f/2.8 T&S I'd use a xxD camera) and a Foba Camera Stand (because I hate to hold griped cameras). I don't need weather sealing. I don't need high ISO, I don't need high frame rate. I use single-point auto focus or manual focus (depending on the lens used).

For location work I like the ergonomics of a xxD camera without a grip. No weather sealing needed because It Seldom Rains in southern California  I use light weight battery powered Profoto packs for location lighting.

BTW I don't *own* much gear, I prefer *renting* The Right Tool For The Job  YMMV.

BTW2 I've had several photo essays published that were shot with a borrowed Film Rebel. I don't just talk-the-talk ...


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## skoobey (Oct 19, 2014)

Ahaaaa, so if you can buy something at Walmart, it means it's not a product suited for professionals? Ahahaah

Excuses, excuses, go practice with your non-pro cameras!


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## bdunbar79 (Oct 19, 2014)

Does it have a cowbell?


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## eninja (Oct 21, 2014)

Menace said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



But I want to argue that, the professional you refer here is the whole system not the camera only..

For me professional camera means, reliable in terms of photo taking.. not necessarily complete or high features.
and Should accept 2 memory cards.


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## Maiaibing (Oct 21, 2014)

People can make all kind of "own" definitions. 

I tend to follow Canon definition and they reserve "Professional" to the 1D-series. So the cut off for Canon is that 5D/5DII/5DIII did/do not qualify. Just taking a 5D/5DII/5DIII into your hand and then comparing with a 1D-series camera says everything.

This makes sense as most Camera makers (all?) typically have reserved their absolute top model(s) for the designation "Pro".

Thus, when it comes to hardware I do not currently have any "Pro" camera.


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## Hillsilly (Oct 21, 2014)

When elves take photos of children with Santa, they typically use the cheapest Canon DSLRs. Seeing these elves make up more than half of all the pro photographers in the world (and possibly 90%+ of the higher income ones), does that make their cameras "pro" cameras?


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## kaihp (Oct 21, 2014)

Maiaibing said:


> People can make all kind of "own" definitions.
> 
> I tend to follow Canon definition and they reserve "Professional" to the 1D-series. So the cut off for Canon is that 5D/5DII/5DIII did/do not qualify.



Sorry, but that is simply not true. Canon does classify the 5D3 as a professional camera, as least in Europe. Take a look at these Canon websites:
http://www.canon.dk/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/professional/ 
http://www.canon.co.uk/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/professional/
http://www.canon.de/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/professional/
http://www.canon.fr/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/professional/

Oddly, the 5D3 is categorized as 'Enthusiast' on the canon.com.au website, and the Canon USA and CN websites don't make that distinction in their website layout.


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## AcutancePhotography (Oct 21, 2014)

Hillsilly said:


> When elves take photos of children with Santa, they typically use the cheapest Canon DSLRs. Seeing these elves make up more than half of all the pro photographers in the world (and possibly 90%+ of the higher income ones), does that make their cameras "pro" cameras?



I presume that many would try to make a "no true Scotsman" argument about that. ;D


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## jd7 (Oct 23, 2014)

Apparently when it has two memory cards ... according to KR ...
http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/5d-mk-iii.htm

or at least when KR says it's professional ...
http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d700.htm
http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d3.htm
http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/1d-x.htm

But then again, maybe gear isn't truly professional unless KR says it's "fully professional"?
http://www.kenrockwell.com/sony/a99.htm
http://kenrockwell.com/canon/lenses/35mm-is.htm
http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/lenses/70-200mm-f28.htm
http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/lenses/100-400mm.htm

...



Joking aside, I think the answer is there is no such thing as a professional camera. People are professionals - which comes from a combination of knowledge, skill and application (and some would say earning money therefrom). Gear cannot possess those attributes. 

Gear can be designed for professionals, ie designed with a focus on the likely/perceived needs of professionals - which generally speaking will go beyond high quality optics and AF to features like tough/resilient build quality and weather-sealing (eg do you want your professional photographer failing to get good shots of your event because a bit of rain sent him/her scurrying inside to protect his/her equipment?) - but that is a separate issue.


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## Maiaibing (Oct 24, 2014)

kaihp said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > People can make all kind of "own" definitions.
> ...



Interesting. I'll take a closer look when I have more time. Also a surprise when compared to other Canon info such as their promo materials at release (which I checked but not for Europe). Maybe because its so expensive in Europe compared to the rest of the Western World? Or because 5D/5DII/5DIII makes you qualify for the European CPS-programme?


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## kaihp (Oct 24, 2014)

Maiaibing said:


> Interesting. I'll take a closer look when I have more time. Also a surprise when compared to other Canon info such as their promo materials at release (which I checked but not for Europe). Maybe because its so expensive in Europe compared to the rest of the Western World? Or because 5D/5DII/5DIII makes you qualify for the European CPS-programme?



Your guess is as good (or maybe better) as mine and only Canon Europe can say for sure.


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## dickgrafixstop (Oct 29, 2014)

whoever's holding it


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## kaihp (Oct 31, 2014)

kaihp said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting. I'll take a closer look when I have more time. Also a surprise when compared to other Canon info such as their promo materials at release (which I checked but not for Europe). Maybe because its so expensive in Europe compared to the rest of the Western World? Or because 5D/5DII/5DIII makes you qualify for the European CPS-programme?
> ...



Just yesterday I got a customer satisfaction survey mail from CPS. In that survey, the lumped the 1D and 5D together as "Professional" level camera bodies.


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## entropy69 (Nov 3, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> The person holding it.


+1


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## wsmith96 (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks everyone for all of your responses!


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## jepabst (Nov 4, 2014)

dickgrafixstop said:


> whoever's holding it


+1


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