# Guess what?



## EOBeav (Jul 22, 2013)

If you're shooting with a 135mm prime lens (non-IS), and your camera max shutter sync speed is only 1/200...that's not a lot of wiggle room.


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## polarhannes (Jul 22, 2013)

Did you consider HSS or was that not an option?


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## hyles (Jul 22, 2013)

Usually flash is faster then any shutter speed, and it is flash light that freezes the movement.
Diego


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## RAKAMRAK (Jul 22, 2013)

EOBeav said:


> If you're shooting with a 135mm prime lens (non-IS), and your camera max shutter sync speed is only 1/200...that's not a lot of wiggle room.



It is too cryptic.... could you elaborate the situation you are facing a little bit more?


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 22, 2013)

hyles said:


> Usually flash is faster then any shutter speed, and it is flash light that freezes the movement.
> Diego



True in a studio. Not so true for fill flash on bright summers days.


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## RLPhoto (Jul 22, 2013)

EOBeav said:


> If you're shooting with a 135mm prime lens (non-IS), and your camera max shutter sync speed is only 1/200...that's not a lot of wiggle room.



That can be an issue if your mixing ambient with flash on the 135L. That's only an issue if you want everything in the frame sharp and not just what the flash strikes handheld. If your mixing slower than 1/135th, and want a sharp frame, a tripod is the best bet. Now handheld, IS will work but it wouldn't stop motion from your subject blurring by movement. 

There is a lot of ways to slice this, specifics are important.


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## hyles (Jul 22, 2013)

paul13walnut5 said:


> hyles said:
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> > Usually flash is faster then any shutter speed, and it is flash light that freezes the movement.
> ...


In this case the problem is not caused from movement of the sobject, but it is more likely caused by a double exposure, the first caused by flash light and the second formed by ambient light. You can solve this problem closing diafragm. If you want to keep lens open and flash light you can chose HSS or a ND filter.
Diego


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 23, 2013)

hyles said:


> paul13walnut5 said:
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In this case the problem is caused by camera shake because the flash enforced shutter max synch speed of 1/200th is too slow.

It is not a double exposure, it is a question of mixing and balance flash with ambient light.

Closing the diaphragm will give the flash more work to expose at all, and make it tricker to reach an ambient / flash balance, the result is likely to be dark background and caught int headlights subject, flat batteries and long recycling time.

HSS is probably part of the answer, although for fill flash against bright daylight you probably want to keep the power up, HSS will diminish the power.. A monopod is probably the other part.


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## EOBeav (Jul 25, 2013)

This isn't really a problem, just an a-ha moment that I had. I have the Canon 135mm f/2 L, which is non-IS. I also shoot with a Canon 5DmkII, max shutter speed sync of 1/200 sec. I also have a non-HSS flash. When I was combining all three the other day (combining flash with ambient), I realized that I need to keep my shutter speed at least ~1/160 but under 1/200. That's not a lot of wiggle room. 

Not a complaint, just an observation. I won't be able to get the HSS for awhile, but you can bet its next on my wish list. 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum.


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## jdramirez (Jul 25, 2013)

Chicken butt.


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## Ryan708 (Jul 25, 2013)

http://www.amazon.com/Yongnuo-YN568EX-YN-568EX-Speed-Speedlite/dp/B0094O6GNI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1374715228&sr=8-3&keywords=yongnuo+568

Yongnuo are pretty well praised, I have a Sigma with HSS, and it works great (other than the firmware being glitchy) I can shoot @ f 1.8 in the snow and still use fill-flash, although the 61 meter range is cut about in half.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 25, 2013)

Ryan708 said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Yongnuo-YN568EX-YN-568EX-Speed-Speedlite/dp/B0094O6GNI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1374715228&sr=8-3&keywords=yongnuo+568
> 
> Yongnuo are pretty well praised, I have a Sigma with HSS, and it works great (other than the firmware being glitchy) I can shoot @ f 1.8 in the snow and still use fill-flash, although the 61 meter range is cut about in half.



A secondhand 550EX is better value and will always have 100% functionality with any EOS camera now and in the future.


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## EOBeav (Jul 27, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Ryan708 said:
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> > http://www.amazon.com/Yongnuo-YN568EX-YN-568EX-Speed-Speedlite/dp/B0094O6GNI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1374715228&sr=8-3&keywords=yongnuo+568
> ...



I've got 2 YN-560's, and I wouldn't have a problem buying a HSS version. That company is still trying to shake the QC reputation of some of their first production runs. I just haven't had a problem with mine after two years.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 27, 2013)

EOBeav said:


> privatebydesign said:
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I don't care what anybody but me buys, I really don't. I got some Yongnuo RF-602's years ago and was very happy to recommend them. Just pointing out that as far as flashes go there are actually cheaper branded options. I used 550EX's for years, never saw the point in the 580EX or 580EX II, once the 600-EX-RT came out I did see the advantages so went to that, but I still have several 550's and couldn't be happier with them, best $120 a Canon shooter can spend on speedlites.


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## Daniel Flather (Jul 28, 2013)

Use a leaf shutter, problem solved.


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## EOBeav (Jul 28, 2013)

Daniel Flather said:


> Use a leaf shutter, problem solved.



I've heard of those, but that's not really an option in a 5DmkII.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 28, 2013)

Leaf shutters have their own issues. People that think they give true sync at high speeds don't understand how they work. They are not a panacea they are an effective second aperture.


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## RLPhoto (Jul 29, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Leaf shutters have their own issues. People that think they give true sync at high speeds don't understand how they work. They are not a panacea they are an effective second aperture.



Yeah because I remember vividly of how well my 35mm cams true sync @ 1/800th. :


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## privatebydesign (Jul 29, 2013)

This series of videos gives a best case scenario, and aptly demonstrates that *leaf shutters act as second apertures at high sync speeds*.

http://petapixel.com/2013/05/07/a-slow-motion-look-at-the-fujifilm-x100s-shutter-speeds-and-syncing/

Remember three things, first, the X100S is designed from the word go to do this, and it fakes it somewhat by not energising the sensor for the first half of the shutter travel (effectively it has an electronic first curtain), any camera not designed with an electronic first or second curtain can't get close to this efficiency; second, when a leaf shutter acts as a second aperture you lose flash power; third, your flash t1 times become critical, don't think about using a small flash at full power because it isn't fast enough to get the light out there, studio strobes are very slow, with some t1 times as slow as 1/60 second. 

Of course there are options to get light out at high speeds, but they all cost good money, even Einsteins aren't cheap if you have to gang them because they only do a full power t1 of 1/666. *A leaf shutter is not a panacea to high speed sync issues.*


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## RLPhoto (Jul 29, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> This series of videos gives a best case scenario, and aptly demonstrates that *leaf shutters act as second apertures at high sync speeds*.
> 
> http://petapixel.com/2013/05/07/a-slow-motion-look-at-the-fujifilm-x100s-shutter-speeds-and-syncing/
> 
> ...



Cutting ambient foremost is why we sync at these speeds. Flash power at those speeds is secondary to cutting ambient light. Add less flashes by cutting ambient, otherwise have fun shooting through 3 stop NDs. Getting the sync at all is what matters. 

Like mr. Hobby lighting a group shot in broad daylight with two sb900s. Lol if you attempted that with a focal shutter.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 29, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> Like mr. Hobby lighting a group shot in broad daylight with two sb900s. Lol if you attempted that with a focal shutter.



If you mean this shot

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2013/05/leaf-shutter-nd-flash-fuji-x100s.html

that is not difficult, just put both flashes on full power, as opposed to one, sync at 1/250 and go to iso 100 (he used 200) both at f8. Simple. You would lose a fraction of a stop of separation, but nothing dramatic. If you weren't worried about the f8 then it would be even easier and you could match the separation perfectly.


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## RLPhoto (Jul 29, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> RLPhoto said:
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> > Like mr. Hobby lighting a group shot in broad daylight with two sb900s. Lol if you attempted that with a focal shutter.
> ...



I guess the point flew over again. Don't you love quotes taken out of context?


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## privatebydesign (Jul 29, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> privatebydesign said:
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Seeing as how I quoted your entire paragraph, and you are the one who loves to selectively/out of context quote me, I must be honest and say I am amused by your response. Given up on the technical side have we? Realised you are talking rubbish, yet again? What exactly was your point?

But lets take a minute here, you said _"Lol if you attempted that with a focal shutter."_ How am I wrong to give you the settings for a focal plane shutter to get exactly the same image?

I own three leaf shutter equipped lenses, I use them, I understand them, I know what they can do and what they can't do. Leaf shutters have their uses, but they are no panacea to high sync speeds as is so often implied in threads like this, there are far more considerations to take into account, things like shutter travel speed, actual sync actuation timing (ever wonder why leaf shutter lenses normally have several sync options?), aperture used, flash t1 and t5 times, flash power needed etc etc. It is not a case of if you have a leaf shutter turn on a flash and fire at 1/1000 or more, it just isn't that simple.

But back to the selective or out of context quoting, here is a test for you that you should smoke, seeing as how you regularly lambast me for having made a supporting comment, which of these is shot at f2.8 and which is shot at f5.6?


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## RLPhoto (Jul 29, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> RLPhoto said:
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> > privatebydesign said:
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That's a lie. Re-read this portion you omitted... 

"Cutting ambient foremost is why we sync at these speeds. Flash power at those speeds is secondary to cutting ambient light. Add less flashes by cutting ambient, otherwise have fun shooting through 3 stop NDs. Getting the sync at all is what matters. "


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## privatebydesign (Jul 29, 2013)

Dude, not only can you not tell the difference between a 135 f2 and a 100 f2.8, or the difference between f2.8 or f5.6, but now you show us you can't tell the difference between a paragraph and a complete post.

I have nothing more to say to you, ignorance is bliss and I'd hate to awaken you from your blissful state.


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## RLPhoto (Jul 29, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Dude, not only can you not tell the difference between a 135 f2 and a 100 f2.8, or the difference between f2.8 or f5.6, but now you show us you can't tell the difference between a paragraph and a complete post.
> 
> I have nothing more to say to you, ignorance is bliss and I'd hate to awaken you from your blissful state.



I enjoy popping bubbles with real photography. Please do tell me how I know nothing about sync speed my friend. 

The point seems to have flew past you again...


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## docholliday (Jul 29, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Leaf shutters have their own issues. People that think they give true sync at high speeds don't understand how they work. They are not a panacea they are an effective second aperture.



Huh? Ignoring the stupid strobist videos that are diluted at best...I think you need to learn and actually use a leaf shutter. A 1/1000s leaf is completely open and exposes the entire frame 'sync'ronously for the flash exposure to fire. The 'second aperture' comment only applies on cameras where a shutter is augmented by the sensor for capture. Look at the original 1Ds - 1/500 because the CCD could start and stop listening to data faster than the focal plane shutter.

Before you give ME a "I own and use 3 leaf shutter lenses"...maybe you should try shooting medium and large format - all my Hasselblads and Schneider lenses (many more than 3) say that you're not truly comprehending why a leaf is important when balancing ambient and flash. Go push some real power on the flash side (not some strobist < 250w/s - I'm talking 5000+ w/s for large groups outdoor) and see why you need a leaf.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 29, 2013)

OK, in the hope that you might realise something I am going to try one more time.

You said _"Lol if you attempted that with a focal shutter. "_ I took that to mean you didn't think that shot could be taken with the equipment to hand with a focal plane shutter equipped camera.

Hobby's ambient exposure was 1/500, iso 200 @f8, my suggestion to replicate that with a slower sync speed was 1/250, iso 100 @f8, that gives exactly the same ambient exposure. No killing needed, the ambient is exposed exactly the same with both the leaf shutter and the focal plane shutter equipped bodies. Now as I said the flash exposure, the separation, is slightly different, his flash exposure is one flash 1/1 one flash 1/4 power, iso 200 and f8, mine is both flashes 1/1 iso 100 and f8, that means the flash exposure is around 1/3 stop different. Doesn't that prove your hyperbole to be incorrect? You can take that shot with a focal plane shutter, you implied you couldn't.

Are there shots you can take with a leaf shutter that you can't take with a focal plane shutter? YES, but the example you held up is not one of them.

As to your example image. To me it shows a certain youthful exuberance, the kind of image you will look back on in a few years and think 'How could I mess up my exposure so badly? Why would I show that to anybody? Thank god I got better.'

I am sure you will say it looks better in real life, that the clients loved it, that the burnt out edges are not burnt out on the file etc etc. But if that is the best example you can produce to demonstrate balancing light sources you have a long way to go, my friend.

As for saying you know nothing about sync speed, I never did say such a thing, I just demonstrated that you know nothing about the practical use of leaf shutters and high sync speeds, and there is a subtle difference in the two.


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## docholliday (Jul 29, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> As for saying you know nothing about sync speed, I never did say such a thing, I just demonstrated that you know nothing about the practical use of leaf shutters and high sync speeds, and there is a subtle difference in the two.



Huh, again? There is a major difference between using a leaf and HS. Go try shooting a race car with HS and see how your image looks compared to one burst of full power from a 2400w/s strobe using a leaf.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 29, 2013)

docholliday said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
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> > Leaf shutters have their own issues. People that think they give true sync at high speeds don't understand how they work. They are not a panacea they are an effective second aperture.
> ...



Maybe you should get some facts straight too. The 1Ds has a CMOS sensor, the 1D has a CCD, I know, I have one.

Second, that is not how leaf shutters work, they open sequentially (basically but not entirely) from the center out, and then close in the reverse order, from outside to center, the second aperture is totally relevant, the Fuji halves this effect because it has an electronic first curtain, it doesn't start exposing the sensor until the shutter is completely open, if the senor does not have an electronic first and/or second curtain then it is reacting to light as the shutter opens and/or closes.

My three lenses are medium format!

As for flash power, tell me your t1 times. You might realise there is no difference between the light on the subject at full power and quarter power over 1/750 sec sync speed or so. PCB Einsteins are very fast but look at the graph, and comparison, here, under the Comparison Data tab. http://www.paulcbuff.com/e640.php


YET AGAIN, there are good reasons for leaf shutters, but the way they are talked about in threads like these makes them sound like panaceas for flash use, as I keep saying, they are not, they have their limitations, and it is surprising how close to focal plane shutter sync speeds those limitations start kicking in.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 29, 2013)

docholliday said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > As for saying you know nothing about sync speed, I never did say such a thing, I just demonstrated that you know nothing about the practical use of leaf shutters and high sync speeds, and there is a subtle difference in the two.
> ...



This is NOT a comparison between leaf shutters and HSS, it is a comparison between real world leaf shutter sync performance and focal plane shutter sync performance.


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## RLPhoto (Jul 29, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> OK, in the hope that you might realise something I am going to try one more time.
> 
> You said _"Lol if you attempted that with a focal shutter. "_ I took that to mean you didn't think that shot could be taken with the equipment to hand with a focal plane shutter equipped camera.
> 
> ...



LOL! Right on broski... never admit your wrong even though I hold your opinion on photography more weightless than a single molecule of hydrogen about to be consumed in the center of the sun.

If your very knowing PBD, Please I'll wait and you inform me how I shot this. Details, shutter speed, through ND's or not, Outdoors or Indoors. Afterall, I know nothing about balancing ambient or flash but please do post some of your examples of your work. I'd like to see some. ;D


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## privatebydesign (Jul 29, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> LOL! Right on broski... never admit your wrong even though I hold your opinion on photography more weightless than a single molecule of hydrogen about to be consumed in the center of the sun.
> 
> If your very knowing PBD, Please I'll wait and you inform me how I shot this. Details, shutter speed, through ND's or not, Outdoors or Indoors. Afterall, I know nothing about balancing ambient or flash but please do post some of your examples of your work. I'd like to see some. ;D



You might find my opinion worthless, however that clearly doesn't mean it is wrong because you can't accurately contradict any of it, hurling insults is a sure sign of an argument lost.

Why would I want to deconstruct such a badly exposed image other than to learn what not to do? I should have stuck to my earlier opinion, that you are only interested in a bitch fight, not actually learning anything.

Enjoy your blissful state.


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## RLPhoto (Jul 29, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> RLPhoto said:
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> 
> > LOL! Right on broski... never admit your wrong even though I hold your opinion on photography more weightless than a single molecule of hydrogen about to be consumed in the center of the sun.
> ...



You mad bro?    I'm not the one who's been typing long drawn out posts... : : : ;D ;D ;D

Nice lawnchair photo BTW, it really reflects your skill level... :-X


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## docholliday (Jul 29, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> docholliday said:
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1. That's not a 1Ds I'm talking about - it's in reference to PLURAL 1D cameras

2. Ever rebuilt a leaf shutter? From the sounds of it, not. When you've rebuilt a few dozen leaf shutters, then we'll talk. Try rebuilding a few Prontor Hasselblad lens shutters from a CF or newer. And then, give a few LF Copal #3's a working. 

3. Yup, a leaf shutter opens from the center and closes to the center - EXPOSING THE FRAME EQUALLY at high speed. Whereas, a FP would form a slit because the second curtain is already moving before the first curtain is completely open. Congratulations, you pass a basic physics lesson.

4. Get some real lights - we'll talk when you start to use Broncolor and have some really high speed flash with ultra short durations that can keep up with high FPS. The pulsing of HS sync reduces your distance, hence coverage and for motion, it isn't consistent. Therefore, firing ONE burst of light at a subject will freeze ONE frame of the motion. On top of it all, you would actually be able to get some light > 50ft.

You can keep arguing your (lack of) point. Those of us out here who actually get out and use our equipment will just keep on going using our (to you obviously useless) leaf shutters in daylight with great results, just like the example above. 

BTW, let's see you HS sync a H5D Hasselblad if it had a FP shutter. Good luck. Your sync speed would be something like 1/30s. The larger the sensor/film, the longer it takes to get the shutter curtains moving. So, yes, there is a reason for LS in modern application.

Anyways, have fun with your theories and spewing of internet-obtained info. The rest of us will now go shoot some actual pics with our gear...


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## privatebydesign (Jul 30, 2013)

docholliday said:


> 1. That's not a 1Ds I'm talking about - it's in reference to PLURAL 1D cameras
> 
> 2. Ever rebuilt a leaf shutter? From the sounds of it, not. When you've rebuilt a few dozen leaf shutters, then we'll talk. Try rebuilding a few Prontor Hasselblad lens shutters from a CF or newer. And then, give a few LF Copal #3's a working.
> 
> ...



1: If you meant 1D's then it might have helped if you had written that, you didn't however, you wrote 1Ds, that is another camera altogether. I am supposed to guess when you make errors?

2: No, I never built a rocket or a helicopter either, but I can tell you exactly how they work.

3: Not according to this link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shutter_%28photography%29 read the bit under diaphragm shutter_ " Effectively the shutter acts as an additional aperture, and may, for example, cause vignetting or increase depth of field, undesirable if shallow focus is being used creatively."_

4: Only at low power settings, which has been my point, you know, one of the several you just don't get. Turn your top of the range Broncolor A4S 3200 heads down to 3Ws and you get 1/8,000 pulse, still slower than a Profoto at 1/12,000 @ 4.7 WS, and they are both slower, though more powerful, than an Einstein at 1/13,000 sec at 2.7WS. OH, AND YET AGAIN, THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT HSS, IT IS ABOUT *syncing at high speeds*, NOT CANON"S PROPRIETARY HIGH SPEED SYNC MODE.

Here is a picture taken by a leaf shutter camera, a five bladed shutter with the lens wide open at high speed. I think this suitably demonstrates another one of my points.


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