# Breakthrough Photography Launches World's First Tempered GND & ND Filters



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 4, 2017)

```
<strong>SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA</strong> – May 1st, 2017 – Breakthrough Photography unveiled a new line of filters which includes the X4 GND and X4 ND Square – the world’s first tempered GND and Square ND filters – which is available for <a href="https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/breakthrough/dark-cpl-and-x4-gnd">pre-order on Kickstarter by clicking here</a>.</p>
<p>The new line of filters consists of six new products: Dark CPL, X4 GND (100mm & 150mm), X4 ND Square (100mm & 150mm) and a 100mm holder called the X100 Holder. Breakthrough Photography also claims the X4 GND and X4 ND Square filters to be the world’s sharpest and most color neutral.</p>
<p><!--more--></p>
<p>“With the professional outdoor photographer in mind, we’re excited to introduce the world’s first tempered glass GND and square ND filter system, available in both 100mm and 150mm formats. We also guarantee these filters to be the world’s sharpest and most color neutral GND and square ND filters.” said founder and photographer Graham Clark.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/40eee260dd95940cc77aa9f6c9ae78a5_original_grande.jpg"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-29320" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/40eee260dd95940cc77aa9f6c9ae78a5_original_grande.jpg" alt="" width="600" height="334" /></a></p>
<h3><strong>Dark CPL</strong></h3>
<p>Breakthrough Photography is introducing a ND and CPL combination filter, which they call a ‘Dark CPL’. “Stacking ND and CPL filters is a common scenario for outdoor photographers. But the primary drawback of doing this is vignetting at 16mm on a full-frame setup. By combining our <a href="http://amzn.to/2pbMg6O">X4 ND</a> and X4 CPL into one filter – which we call a Dark CPL – we’ve eliminated vignetting down to 16mm on a full-frame setup.”</p>
<p>The X4 ND Filter is the highest rated HD on the market, check it out at <a href="http://amzn.to/2pbMg6O">Amazon</a> & <a href="https://bhpho.to/2p8RrDA">B&H Photo</a></p>
<p>The Dark CPL is compatible with the following camera and lens systems: Leica®, Carl Zeiss® lenses, Schneider Xenon®, Canon® Cinema and L lenses, Nikon®, Sony®, Fuji® and others.</p>
<p>Dark CPL thread sizes: 46, 49, 52, 58, 62, 67, 72, 77, 82, 86, 95 and 105mm</p>
<p><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/SS-_2017-05-03_at_11.52.28_PM_large.jpg"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-29321" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/SS-_2017-05-03_at_11.52.28_PM_large.jpg" alt="" width="480" height="432" /></a></p>
<p> </p>
<h3><strong>X4 GND</strong></h3>
<p>Singh-Ray’s line of American-made GND filters have been the industry leader for decades, delivering unparalleled color neutrality. Singh-Ray’s use of high quality CR-39 optical resin also provided unparalleled resolving power.</p>
<p>The X4 GND introduces a new era of durability and resolving power by using SCHOTT B270® optical glass, made in Germany, and it’s the world’s first tempered glass GND. The result is an incredibly durable filter glass that doesn’t break even when dropped onto hard surfaces.</p>
<p>“For years I’ve been a happy user of Singh-Ray’s great line of GND filters. I loved the performance, but the durability of resin filters in general is not so great for meeting the demands of outdoor photographers. And then there’s this problem of image quality and distortion once the surface of the resin GND has been scratched or warped.” said Clark. “After we introduced the X4 ND, I made it our number one goal to reinvent the GND. We encountered numerous manufacturing and engineering problems along the way, but we finally did it, and the X4 GND is the result of all that hard work.”</p>
<p><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/SS-_2017-05-03_at_11.54.24_PM_grande.jpg"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-29322" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/SS-_2017-05-03_at_11.54.24_PM_grande.jpg" alt="" width="600" height="285" /></a></p>
<p> </p>
<h3><strong>X4 ND Square</strong></h3>
<p>Breakthrough Photography is also introducing a new neutral density filter in 100mm and 150mm square formats, called the X4 ND Square.</p>
<p>“Since the introduction of the X4 ND, photographers have continually asked us if we could make it available in 100mm and 150mm square formats.” said Clark. “We’re excited to announce the X4 ND Square, which shares the same technology as our X4 ND circular filters, making the X4 ND Square the world’s sharpest and most color neutral square ND filter. And like the X4 GND, they’re also tempered.”</p>
<p><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/SS-_2017-05-03_at_11.55.12_PM_grande.jpg"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-29323" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/SS-_2017-05-03_at_11.55.12_PM_grande.jpg" alt="" width="600" height="302" /></a></p>
<h3><strong>X100 HOLDER</strong></h3>
<p>Breakthrough Photography is also releasing a new universal 100mm filter holder, called the X100 Holder, which they claim eliminates vignetting down to 16mm on a full-frame setup, and it features an innovative snap-lock mechanism for securely connecting 100mm holders to the camera lens.</p>
<p>X100 Holder Features:</p>
<ul>
<li>No vignetting down to 16mm on a full-frame setup</li>
<li>Innovative Snap-Lock mechanism makes attaching holder quick and secure</li>
<li>One handed operation for attaching and detaching</li>
<li>Traction on exterior of holder makes it easier to grip</li>
<li>CNC machined with aircraft grade alumium provides smooth rotation</li>
<li>Only $49 for X100 Holder, $7 for each adapter ring</li>
</ul>
<p>“A new 100mm filter system just wouldn’t be complete without a great universal holder, and we found a real lack of thoughtfully designed holders on the market, so we decided to try our hand at redesigning the traditional holder. It took well over 50 prototypes to get to the final product.” said Clark. “There were a few features I wanted in a holder that I thought other outdoor photographers might appreciate. The first being the ability to quickly attach/detach with one hand. That led to the second feature, a reliable snap-lock mechanism at the top of the holder, which makes a confident ‘click’ when attaching to the adapter ring. The third was to eliminate vignetting at 16mm on a full-frame setup even with 3 levels installed. I’ve always been disappointed with filter holder and adapter ring prices being so high despite the quality being low, so we decided to go the other way and price our new universal X100 Holder right at only $49, and only $7 for each aluminum adapter ring, $17 for brass. And since it’s universal, it will even work with your existing 100mm filters.”</p>
<p>Each X100 Holder is manufactured from aircraft grade aluminum and features two levels installed, and includes a third level which can be easily installed by the photographer. The front of the X100 Holder also has traction, similar to the traction frame on Breakthrough’s X4 ND filter.</p>
<p><strong>SINGH-RAY AND LEE GND 100% BUYBACK</strong></p>
<p>With the launch of the X100 Filter System, Breakthrough Photography is also starting a new buyback program where they will buy any Singh-Ray or Lee GND filter purchased within the last 15 years from an approved retailer, and provide the photographer with 100% of the value paid on the GNDs in the form of a gift card, which never expires. Valid until May 1st, 2018.</p>
<p><a href="https://breakthrough.photography/pages/100-gnd-buyback-for-singh-ray-and-lee">Click here</a> for more details on the buyback.</p>
<h3><strong>Pricing & Av ailability</strong></h3>
<p>The new filter lineup is available for pre-order on Kickstarter at up to $50 off each filter. Breakthrough Photography has set a projected ship date of July, 2017.</p>
<p>Dark CPL will be available in 3, 6 and 10-stop densities, and will be available in the following thread sizes: 49mm, 52mm, 58mm, 62mm, 67mm, 72mm, 77mm, 82mm, 86mm, 95mm and 105mm.</p>
<p>The X4 GND will be available in the 100x150mm and 150x170mm formats in the following densities:</p>
<ul>
<li>X4 GND 2-stop Soft & Hard: $179 each</li>
<li>X4 GND 3-stop Soft & Hard: $189 each</li>
<li>X4 GND 3-stop Soft & Hard Reverse: $199 each</li>
</ul>
<p>X4 GND in 150x170mm:</p>
<ul>
<li>X4 GND 2-stop Soft & Hard: $239 each</li>
<li>X4 GND 3-stop Soft & Hard: $249 each</li>
<li>X4 GND 3-stop Soft & Hard Reverse: $259 each</li>
</ul>
<p>X4 ND Square will be available in the 100mm and 150mm square formats in the following following densities:</p>
<ul>
<li>X4 ND Square 100mm 1, 2, 3-stop:  $179</li>
<li>X4 ND Square 100mm 4, 5, 6-stop:  $189</li>
<li>X4 ND Square 100mm 7, 8, 9, 10-stop:  $199</li>
<li>X4 ND Square 100mm 15-stop: $229</li>
</ul>
<p>X4 ND in 150mm square:</p>
<ul>
<li>X4 ND 150mm 1, 2, 3-stop: $239 each</li>
<li>X4 ND 150mm 4, 5, 6-stop: $249 each</li>
<li>X4 ND 150mm 7, 8, 9, 10-stop: $259</li>
<li>X4 ND 150mm 15-stop: $279</li>
</ul>
<p>The Universal X100 Filter Holder will be available in 100mm for $49.</p>
<p>X100 Adapter Rings:</p>
<ul>
<li>Aluminum: 49mm, 52mm, 55mm, 58mm, 60mm, 62mm, 67mm, 72mm, 77mm, 82mm and 86mm for $7 each.</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>Brass: 49mm, 52mm, 55mm, 58mm, 60mm, 62mm, 67mm, 72mm, 77mm, 82mm and 86mm for $17 each.</li>
</ul>
<p><strong><a href="https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/breakthrough/dark-cpl-and-x4-gnd">Visit Breakthrough Photography</a></strong></p>
<h3><strong>Product Images</strong></h3>

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## scottkinfw (May 4, 2017)

This company disrespects customers, especially Graham. They shouldn't be allowed to advertise on this site.

Graham, go ahead and accuse me of being a troll, one of your fav insults.

And no Graham, I won't go away. I am just one of many who you have mistreated.

sek


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## Maximilian (May 4, 2017)

scottkinfw said:


> This company disrespects customers, especially Graham. They shouldn't be allowed to advertise on this site.
> 
> Graham, go ahead and accuse me of being a troll, one of your fav insults.
> 
> ...


Just to counter this - probably real - experience and opinion. 
I was in contact with stuff and Graham several times and always treated friendly and with respect.
I am also pleased with the filters I bought from them (CPL, ND) so far.

So Scott, YMMV, but it is not the only experience with Breakthrough Photography.


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## Ladislav (May 4, 2017)

I started with Lee recently and have only holder with few adaptors and Big Stopper. I'm very tempted to go for 2-3 NDs (6,10,15 stops) and 2-3 GNDs (2 and 3 stops soft and 3 stops reverse hard) and maybe even holder.


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## Pookie (May 4, 2017)

Maximilian said:


> scottkinfw said:
> 
> 
> > This company disrespects customers, especially Graham. They shouldn't be allowed to advertise on this site.
> ...



When they came out here a few of the people from my studio bought in, had filters with really weird quality control issues regarding coatings on their filters. They took forever to respond and by the 2nd email Graham was just as "pleasant" as he is here. I live here in the bay area of California and always try and buy local if they are a good alternative... like buying and supporting Peak's great products. 

They may have some good products but the attitude of Graham and his tall tales are ridiculous. There are numerous places to get great filters, I wouldn't spend a dime with Breakthrough at this point.


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## Random Orbits (May 4, 2017)

I hesitated on trying out Breakthrough products after seeing several people in this community have difficulties with the company but TDP had a positive review of its product. I finally bought a 6 stop ND via one of the NYC stores (easier return policy), and more recently got a 3 stop ND directly from the company because it was not listed in the NYC store's website. The 3 stop was on back-order and after a few emails, I got an estimated ship date which was > 1 month after the order date but I had ordered it knowing it was on back-order and was ok with it. It arrived within a week of that date. So far, so good...


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## Hector1970 (May 4, 2017)

Very expensive. I've found Formatt Hitech Firecrest neutral density filters the best in terms of cast. Ive spent lots on Lee Filters too. The biggest problem is robustness. Scratching in the polymer and breaks on the glass ones. I've broken two big stoppers, two little stopper, a 16 stop Formatt Hitech and a 2.4 Formatt Hitech. I've almost cried each time. Is it possible to make these with harder to break glass.


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## Ladislav (May 4, 2017)

Pookie said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > scottkinfw said:
> ...



I may be completely naive since I have never used Kickstarter before but shouldn't "300 DAY RISK FREE MONEY BACK GUARANTEE" mentioned in the campaign cover that?


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## Ladislav (May 4, 2017)

Hector1970 said:


> Very expensive. I've found Formatt Hitech Firecrest neutral density filters the best in terms of cast. Ive spent lots on Lee Filters too. The biggest problem is robustness. Scratching in the polymer and breaks on the glass ones. I've broken two big stoppers, two little stopper, a 16 stop Formatt Hitech and a 2.4 Formatt Hitech. I've almost cried each time. Is it possible to make these with harder to break glass.



Well, Formatt Hitech seems to be another company which does not invest into quality control and customer relations. Just check few comments on Amazon and BHPhoto. I read enough to simply skip them even though their filters seem very good on the paper.


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## Zeidora (May 4, 2017)

Maximilian said:


> scottkinfw said:
> 
> 
> > This company disrespects customers, especially Graham. They shouldn't be allowed to advertise on this site.
> ...


Bought several times from them, very happy. Had one small order mishap, was quickly resolved, and threw in an extra lens cap free of charge. Excellent customer service. I don't know what the problem is with a 300 day money back guarantee, particularly on filters!

Scott: Could it be, that if the customer is rude, that the people at company are not excited of dealing with you? In German we say "as one shouts in the forest, that's the way it rings back" (wie man in den Wald hineinruft, so schallt es heraus). 

Was looking for glass ND grads, which thus far nobody produces. Have two sets of Lees, and they have pretty bad color casts. Re price, nobody is forced to buy anything. Enjoy your freedom of choice.


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## ahsanford (May 4, 2017)

See all these complaints about the various filters out there, it always made me wonder B+W (rock solid for on-lens filtering) never made 100x100 or 100x150 filters.

So I searched, _and they do_. I can't believe I never thought to look. See attached. Standard 100mm dimensions for use with a standard 100mm setup. Glass, and not 'B+W pricey' at all.

It seems very very limited in scope, but has anyone used these?

- A


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## Mac Duderson (May 4, 2017)

??? Gosh I have a few filters of theirs and I have never had any issues and I use them daily for video. I'm kinda shocked with the comments above. 100% opposite of what I have experienced and whenever I had questions they responded immediately. Perhaps there were real complaints and they have responded with better service now...?
Anyhow when I received mine I tested them to my Hoya Pro1 MC NDx8, Pro1 MC NDx32, Marumi DHG Super C PL and I must say they have replaced all of them. Color, Vignetting, and more true density. I couldn't quite see sharpness difference but just the color and vignette diff was enough for me.
Happy customer here... ;D ;D ;D


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## M_S (May 4, 2017)

I wonder: How do you adjust the polarizer effect with the 10 stop combi pol filter????


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## sbauer (May 4, 2017)

FWIW, I've been using Breakthrough Photography filters since their initial Kickstarter and have been very pleased with the quality and performance of each filter. I've also had several e-mails with Graham discussing my thoughts on the filters. He's always been very professional and prompt. Before I began using the Breakthrough Photography filters, I was using the Lee filter system, to include the Big Stopper, and was getting frustrated with the color cast. That problem went away when I started using the Breakthrough Photography filters. I understand that others may have had a different experience but, I've been impressed with both Graham and his products.


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## Ladislav (May 4, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> See all these complaints about the various filters out there, it always made me wonder B+W (rock solid for on-lens filtering) never made 100x100 or 100x150 filters.
> 
> So I searched, _and they do_. I can't believe I never thought to look. See attached. Standard 100mm dimensions for use with a standard 100mm setup. Glass, and not 'B+W pricey' at all.
> 
> ...



That is something very new - I found some announcement from end of March. My local favorite local shop has few of those square NDs for pre-order.


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## jeffa4444 (May 4, 2017)

Canon Rumors seems to have a "relationship" with Breakthrough Photography" but not its competitors!

Breakthrough made some claims about polarizers needing to be at the front of any filter stack and I knew this was rubbish so I conducted rigorous tests and asked a respected optical engineer / designer who designs for Leica, Cookes and he discredited this statement also (front or back makes no difference, its about the quality of filters and the multiplier of filters). 

Nisi make glass filters using Schott glass as do others, that's no big deal. Lee Filters make cinematography glass NDs that are hard coated and truly neutral (tested independently) and these are now available as 100mm & 150mm filters x 2mm (Cinematography is 4mm). 

Consumers or independent testers should be the judge not the companies that sell products that have a vested interest and bad mouthing your competitors as Breakthrough do in public is frankly juvenile and would count me out of buying their products.


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## ahsanford (May 4, 2017)

M_S said:


> I wonder: How do you adjust the polarizer effect with the 10 stop combi pol filter????



Good question. Some say LiveView is still possible with a 10 stop in place (depending on your ambient light levels), but I usually nail things down in LiveView M mode _without_ the ND in place and then add it afterwards (and make the 1000x time correction when I expose under Bulb).

I suppose they (or you, after buying it) could mark the 'clocking' of the two CPL rings -- like put a white dots on the outside of the rings that coincides with max and min polarizing effect so that you wouldn't need to rely on seeing the frame to know what level of polarization it's set for.

...but yes, most people want to see the image effect as they are turning it. 

- A


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## ahsanford (May 4, 2017)

Ladislav said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > See all these complaints about the various filters out there, it always made me wonder B+W (rock solid for on-lens filtering) never made 100x100 or 100x150 filters.
> ...



Ah, that's why I hadn't heard of it, not because I am a knucklehead and waited until 2017 to search for it. : (You just made me feel better, thx.)

1-stop and 2-stop soft grads only. No hard grads and nothing stronger than 2 stops. No sale... yet. I'd like to see reviews on those, though.

- A


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## LesC (May 4, 2017)

Seems to me the polariser should either fit the front of the holder (like Lee) or fit inside the holder like Firecrest or WCC holders). Fitting the polariser to the lens first & then adding the holder seems a bit odd?


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## ahsanford (May 4, 2017)

LesC said:


> Seems to me the polariser should either fit the front of the holder (like Lee) or fit inside the holder like Firecrest or WCC holders). Fitting the polariser to the lens first & then adding the holder seems a bit odd?



Odd _indeed_:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=32456.0

Read from start to finish for our prior conversations with Graham last week when word of this first dropped. It's painful to read, because it looks like they might have a solid product. But until their claims are substantiated, the questions will keep rolling in.

- A


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## Zeidora (May 4, 2017)

Just put some money down, and am happy to see that the goal of $50K is already far exceeded ($147K). So in Fall there will be some comparison images popping up. 

I have Lee plus 105 polarizer and ordered the Breakthrough polarizer and set of NDgrads, so will be able to make direct comparisons on Zeiss glass and 5DsR.


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## YuengLinger (May 4, 2017)

Tempered glass? Great! Now I won't be nearly as worried if my toddlers run head first into a filter.\\ :

Another solution to a problem we never knew existed.


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## LordofTackle (May 4, 2017)

Zeidora said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > scottkinfw said:
> ...



Funny enough, it seems the germans are having very good experiences with BP (including me). I had to order directly with the company since they have no local distributor. But everything went nice and smooth and the contact so far was friendly. So far it seems the ND I bought has no quality issues.

I do remember some rude comments from Graham here at CR, but also that some members weren't exactly polite... 

There is another figure of speech in german that is very fitting: "Der Ton macht die Musik" (it's the WAY you say it..)

-Sebastian


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## ahsanford (May 4, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> Tempered glass? Great! Now I won't be nearly as worried if my toddlers run head first into a filter.\\ :
> 
> Another solution to a problem we never knew existed.



Biggest problems with 100mm systems:

[list type=decimal]
[*]Vignetting on wide angles It's a reality of a 100mm system that you cope with and don't ever solve, but every small improvement here helps.


[*]Holders are primitive, clunky and lack ergonomic intuitiveness. Neither of the words 'quick' or 'slick' ever come up with these systems.


[*]CPLs and ND grads coexisting require painful options: 105mm+ front CPLs that cost a fortune and slightly worsen vignetting, or (IMHO, worse) you put the CPL on the lens and stackevery thing on top of that.


[*]Moving a tripod after you've set everything up is frustrating: you have a choice of removing the filter holder and putting it down _somewhere_ (in the dark / near-dark perhaps), dismounting the camera with everything attached and finding ground to put it on, or moving the entire tripod with everything attached and pray you don't drop a filter or the cable release doesn't come taut as you walk, etc.


[*]It has not been a problem for me (I'm an amateur here), but light leaks have plagued some folks such that they further complicate things with a side baffle / accordion hood.


[/list]
- A


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## PhotographerJim (May 4, 2017)

M_S said:


> I wonder: How do you adjust the polarizer effect with the 10 stop combi pol filter????



Live View


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## PhotographerJim (May 4, 2017)

I'm excited for the dark CP, I have the X4 CP and I love it. Works very well, smooth adjustments and grippy edge.


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## ghosthouse (May 4, 2017)

Wow, I wish I hadn’t read some of comments about some of the customer experiences during the upstart of Breakthrough. I am now a damaged BP fanboy. I either got lucky or came onboard after they matured a bit. 

I’ve ordered directly from BP and from a large online retailer with success. They even send you a letter, nice cleaning cloth and that iconic pic of the Golden Gate bridge you’ll find in their marketing materials.
I own one ND3, 6 & 10 and the CP. I’ve taken some great pictures using these filters but in full disclosure I haven’t run any scientific tests or performed any comparison testing. It could all be an illusion but’s it my illusion and I like the results I am seeing. The X4s, man that coating is so easy to clean. 

Feelings for BP aside, I am in for a DarkCP. I have the 82mm size and use them on my 16-35mm F4 with a step up ring. If I stack the CP on an ND I do get some vignetting. I can stack on a 24-70 just fine.

Graham if you are reading this, hook a brother up! You can't pay for this kind of advertising. Sounds like you have some explaining to do as well!


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## ghosthouse (May 4, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> M_S said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder: How do you adjust the polarizer effect with the 10 stop combi pol filter????
> ...



Live View does work on a Mark IV -- I was surprised that it could see through the 10 but it does. At first I tried using a ND calculator but Live View really does all the work for me now. With a 10 I find myself over exposing to see a little better then I dial in what I want.

It is not ideal on a 10 and the 6 is easier. I like the idea of marking the CP. I'll try that.


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## brad-man (May 4, 2017)

Hector1970 said:


> Very expensive. I've found Formatt Hitech Firecrest neutral density filters the best in terms of cast. Ive spent lots on Lee Filters too. The biggest problem is robustness. Scratching in the polymer and breaks on the glass ones. I've broken two big stoppers, two little stopper, a 16 stop Formatt Hitech and a 2.4 Formatt Hitech. I've almost cried each time. Is it possible to make these with harder to break glass.




Stop using them as beer coasters! These filters are made of tempered glass. If the quality is there (glass, coatings, etc.) then these are the filters you're looking for...


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## Bungle (May 4, 2017)

Funny that a couple of years ago I was just looking for a good protective filter to complete weather seals, Graham putting the smack down on a reviewer on amazon is what sold me. 
I don't remember what the reviewer was complaining about but it was pretty unreasonable. And rather than kiss the guys kiester he basically told him to go <blank> himself. 
I'm so sick of people crying expecting companies to bend over and cater to their ridiculousness. Graham berating the guy was a breath of fresh air. 
I now have BP protective filters on pretty much everything, and recently started using their X4 CPL and couldn't be happier with it. The 3stop ND just came in the mail today. 

OH! And I recently toppled a tripod at it's lowest setting with camera attached. I was packing up to leave after a short trip and the ground was a little more uneven than I expected. The filter hit the rock and sand and got scuffed up just a little bit. I talked to someone via their facebook and a few days later I had a replacement in my hands. Free. 

I agree with an earlier post (in german) about personality mirroring. You come off like a jerk, expect to be treated like one.


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## danski0224 (May 5, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> CPLs and ND grads coexisting require painful options: 105mm+ front CPLs that cost a fortune and slightly worsen vignetting, or (IMHO, worse) you put the CPL on the lens and stackevery thing on top of that.
> - A



Wine Country Camera has a 100mm system that has a solution to the CPL issue.


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## YuengLinger (May 5, 2017)

How many of these replies, particularly from new posters, are being written by employees or others with an investment interest in Breakthrough? C'mon, y'all, 'fess up. 

This grassroots, social media buzz generating is giving me a headache.


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## ahsanford (May 5, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> How many of these replies, particularly from new posters, are being written by employees or others with an investment interest in Breakthrough? C'mon, y'all, 'fess up.
> 
> This grassroots, social media buzz generating is giving me a headache.



+1. Graham has showed up here a 2-3 times immediately after a press release, kickstarter announcement, etc. and after last week's episode of_* 'Why is 'trust me' not good enough to substantiate my seemingly impossible vignetting claims?'*_, I wonder... Has he sent a surrogate or some friendly voices in to soften up the skeptics? :

FTR, I'm no enemy of Breakthrough or anyone else hawking gear for that matter. I welcome a useful new product idea. I just want to see substantiation of claims + any fine print needed to attain that performance level in real use.

Their product concept looks interesting, honestly. But their claims and chief person speaking to those claims, on the other hand, have moved me 'curious / I wonder how they pulled that off / tell me more' to outright skeptical. It's nothing personal, angry or inappropriate. It's just that I tend to barter in facts / logic / proof, and responses of 'trust me' do not motivate me to reach for my wallet.

- A


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## Sashi (May 5, 2017)

Why are we all still using filters with all the advancements in dynamic range?

Oh wait, this is 'Canon' rumours.


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## Woody (May 5, 2017)

The Sony A7 camera series have rendered the use of filters (apart from polarisers) obsolete through the use of PlayMemories Camera Apps. Hopefully, all cameras will made this way in future.


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## Axilrod (May 5, 2017)

I have 2 Breakthrough X2 ND's and love them. And I'm really surprised to hear people mention bad customer service. I had an issue where dust was sticking to the front of the filters and I messaged them asking about it and they immediately offered to ship me brand new ones even though it had been a year since I'd purchased them. I've had nothing but good experiences with them and they make solid products.


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## scottkinfw (May 5, 2017)

Maximilian said:


> scottkinfw said:
> 
> 
> > This company disrespects customers, especially Graham. They shouldn't be allowed to advertise on this site.
> ...



What does YMMV mean?

I am glad you were treated well, I only report on the poor treatment I received. 

sek


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## scottkinfw (May 5, 2017)

Pookie said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > scottkinfw said:
> ...



Thanks for posting this Pookie. Graham "troll shamed" me to the point that I thought I was the only one and I was nuts. Thank you for the validation. I don't recall publicly expresseing displeasure with a company before.
I agree, Peak is great.
sek


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## scottkinfw (May 5, 2017)

Zeidora said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > scottkinfw said:
> ...


Hey ZeidoraI deal with people all day every day and service them. I would agree with your wise German saying. If a customer was rude, dit would tend to make people less receptive. Works the same here in The USA.
I won't beat a dead horse here. My experience, especially with Graham, was what it was.

sek


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## scottkinfw (May 5, 2017)

ghosthouse said:


> Wow, I wish I hadn’t read some of comments about some of the customer experiences during the upstart of Breakthrough. I am now a damaged BP fanboy. I either got lucky or came onboard after they matured a bit.
> 
> I’ve ordered directly from BP and from a large online retailer with success. They even send you a letter, nice cleaning cloth and that iconic pic of the Golden Gate bridge you’ll find in their marketing materials.
> I own one ND3, 6 & 10 and the CP. I’ve taken some great pictures using these filters but in full disclosure I haven’t run any scientific tests or performed any comparison testing. It could all be an illusion but’s it my illusion and I like the results I am seeing. The X4s, man that coating is so easy to clean.
> ...



Ghosthouse, I am glad you had a good experience. I'm not saying all customers get disrespected, so maybe I was just unlucky. In any event, if you order more, I hope your luck continues and you are totally happy with your purchases.
From my experience, if they were the best quality filters, I wouldn't buy them due to the bad feelings about them.

sek


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## scottkinfw (May 5, 2017)

Bungle said:


> Funny that a couple of years ago I was just looking for a good protective filter to complete weather seals, Graham putting the smack down on a reviewer on amazon is what sold me.
> I don't remember what the reviewer was complaining about but it was pretty unreasonable. And rather than kiss the guys kiester he basically told him to go <blank> himself.
> I'm so sick of people crying expecting companies to bend over and cater to their ridiculousness. Graham berating the guy was a breath of fresh air.
> I now have BP protective filters on pretty much everything, and recently started using their X4 CPL and couldn't be happier with it. The 3stop ND just came in the mail today.
> ...


Hey Bungle. I don't know if that incident with Graham was with me, but I don't remember that I was the target of his abuse on this forum.
I would ask you to consider how you would feel if you got the "treatment". Maybe it wouldn't be as amusing as it was when someone else got reamed.
You could very well be the next victim of his arrogant abuse, so if not for the sake of insight, then at least for the sake of understanding that you could be victimized, think that through.

sek


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## Bungle (May 5, 2017)

scottkinfw said:


> Bungle said:
> 
> 
> > Funny that a couple of years ago I was just looking for a good protective filter to complete weather seals, Graham putting the smack down on a reviewer on amazon is what sold me.
> ...


 If it was _unwarranted_ then obviously that would be a problem and I would completely agree. This person went onto a review site expecting unrealistic things to happen without actually contacting anyone. 

What I took away from it is: Graham cares deeply about/stands by his product. Contact them and they will fix the problem. My take away was further confirmed by them sending a new filter when I admitted the damage was completely my fault. They didn't seem to care at all about that and sent me a new one the next day.


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## Maximilian (May 5, 2017)

scottkinfw said:


> What does YMMV mean?


Hi Scott! Sorry for using an abbreviation you don't know. And maybe I used it wrong (German native speaker) but I got used to it here 
As far as I understand YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary (in gasoline consumption) is also used as = Your results/opinion may be different.



> I am glad you were treated well, I only report on the poor treatment I received.


And that is you absolute right. And I admit that Grahams reaction in other threads was also disturbing to me.
But I also don't know what happened in detail, so in such conflicts you don't even know the truth when carefully listening to both sides.


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## Maximilian (May 5, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> How many of these replies, particularly from new posters, are being written by employees or others with an investment interest in Breakthrough? C'mon, y'all, 'fess up.
> 
> This grassroots, social media buzz generating is giving me a headache.


Don't forget those competitors doing the same thing the other way 'round. 
(not accusing anyone here)
Considering this makes the headache becoming a severe migraine 

The only three choices are to stay away, to ignore or to read between the lines.


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## M_S (May 5, 2017)

PhotographerJim said:


> M_S said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder: How do you adjust the polarizer effect with the 10 stop combi pol filter????
> ...


Could be a very hard task as you don't see much. I will have to try it out but I guess he pol first and then ND option is far easier to manage.


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## ahsanford (May 5, 2017)

Woody said:


> The Sony A7 camera series have rendered the use of filters (apart from polarisers) obsolete through the use of PlayMemories Camera Apps. Hopefully, all cameras will made this way in future.



I believe the PlayMemories ND grad is a _multi-shot _solution, is it not? That's far from obsoleting anything.

https://petapixel.com/2015/12/17/sonys-new-sky-hdr-app-replaces-the-graduated-nd-filter-for-landscapes/

It's just a streamlined process for bracketing via HDR, correct? I'll keep using my grads, thanks.

- A


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## Woody (May 5, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> I believe the PlayMemories ND grad is a _multi-shot _solution, is it not?



Yup. It also produces 2 RAW shots. This (i) simplifies workflow (ii) removes the need to carry a bag of filters and filter holder (iii) reduces costs and (iv) eliminates filter-related issues such as discoloration, distortion and vignetting.

An impressive example of the use of in-camera app:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1485089/0


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## Ladislav (May 5, 2017)

Woody said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > I believe the PlayMemories ND grad is a _multi-shot _solution, is it not?
> ...



That is just another option to use. It is not direct replacement which will make filters obsolete for everyone.


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## ghosthouse (May 5, 2017)

Maximilian said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > How many of these replies, particularly from new posters, are being written by employees or others with an investment interest in Breakthrough? C'mon, y'all, 'fess up.
> ...



I resemble this persona and am compelled to reply…

I am real, as in genuine. A genuine nobody without a conflict of interest. Long time reader and more recently a spotty contributor. Happy to be a part of the community. In this era of fake news I completely understand any skepticism or reading me between the lines / ignoring


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## ahsanford (May 5, 2017)

Woody said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > I believe the PlayMemories ND grad is a _multi-shot _solution, is it not?
> ...



You just described the upsides of HDR over front-filtering; you are not proving the obsolescence of front filters. 

_There's a reason why people carry those filter bags around:_ one can nail exposure in-camera while capturing everything at the same moment in time. HDR / compositing / apps do not.

Don't get me wrong -- HDR/compositing shots are valuable tools when some compositions' contrast / skylines don't allow grad use, sure, but front filtering remains my preference.

- A


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## 100 (May 6, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



It’s not HDR.

Quote from Fred Miranda:
_ 64 average images at 0.5s shutter speed for the background (Equiv. 30 sec.) and 4 images at 1/3s for the foreground. (2-image focused stacked using Zerene in post)
The great thing about the in-camera SR app is that I ended up with only 2 RAW files, one for the background and one for the foreground._

64 times the same exposure averaged will get you more or less the same as 1 long exposure of 32 seconds. So it will get you the same result as a 6 stops ND filter. 
He used this to smoothen the water and clouds (they move due to the wind) just like you would use an ND filter. Without the app you need to average 64 images in photoshop, with the app it’s done in camera.
With ultra wide angle lenses this will be the better option I think. 

With HDR you combine different exposures to get the full dynamic range of the scene when it’s greater than the camera is able to capture in a single exposure. The images are not averaged in that case but combined with light masks for instance.


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## privatebydesign (May 6, 2017)

100 said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Woody said:
> ...



This is not HDR.
Combining the two in post in Zerene is HDR.

Neither is a anything to do with filters they are about image averaging to reduce noise. The fact that he ends up with a single image made from two different exposures, each made from averaging multiple exposures (even though they are very similar, 0.3 and 0.5 sec), means it is an HDR technique.

PlayMemories ND grad is an in camera multi shot HDR technique and is an effective grad filter replacement, he didn't use that feature for these two images that went into the single image. He used the averaging option which is completely different.

By the way, there is nothing in the app that can't be done in post more effectively and with greater control.


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## Jack Douglas (May 6, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> 100 said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



Scott, once again I'm new to all this, never having used an ND filter. I've read various commentary and have a general idea what is going on and now want to get set up for long exposures with the 11-24. The dinner plate out front doesn't seem too appealing but considering these will be tripod landscapes, perhaps that's not such an issue.

I'm interested in recommended resources - links, books etc. I have committed to ON1 RAW and with very limited usage it seems like it is an alternative to PS (I don't intend to get into a PS yearly license) and they are producing a lot of resource material that appears helpful. Again, I'm not at this point competent to judge all this and am still too busy with my "inside reno project" - will it ever end! 

Anyone else care to chime in with advice also, I'm listening. The rear glass filter for the 11-24 seemed promising but ...?? :-\

Jack


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## 100 (May 7, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> 100 said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



Image averaging can be done to reduce noise, but shooting 64 frames at ISO 100 tells me that was not the (main) purpose in this case. 
The reason was given:
_Mono Lake was extremely windy that day... The solution was capturing long exposures with the help of the Sony SR app._

In my opinion the technique in this case is used to get the smoothening effect you get with long exposures, the same thing a 6 stops ND filter would have accomplished. 

Zerene stacker is a tool to increase DOF, not dynamic range. 

The only reason left to call this “an HDR technique” is the small difference in exposure between the foreground and background. I didn’t ask, but I don’t think his intention was to increase dynamic range. 

Does this make all ND filters redundant? No, it doesn’t but it’s a good alternative in this particular case where you want a long exposure for the smoothening effect.


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## LesC (May 7, 2017)

Seems there are numerous filter systems all claiming to be the best or to have the most neutral ND filters etc but none seem to be able to make the perfect holder.

I'm quite happy with my Lee filters & have no desire to change them. Colour casts with the big/super stoppers are minimal & more often than not I like the effect anyway.

However the Lee holder is certainly the weak point of the system & does seem a bit cheap.

The Breakthrough holder looks nice but fitting it onto a polariser is just plain silly in my opinion. 

The new WCC holder looks very promising although I would want such a fancy holder & expensive filters held on to the adaptor solely by the one thumbscrew - needs a securing catch like the ones that hold it's polariser in place. I asked about this & they said they will consider it. I'd be very interested then.

The NISA V5 Pro looks to be a good option - polariser fits in the adaptor ring like the WCC & they now make a landscape polariser (I like my Lee landscape polariser). Not sure if my Lee Little/Big/Supper stoppers will fit though ...


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## neuroanatomist (May 8, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> +1. Graham has showed up here a 2-3 times immediately after a press release, kickstarter announcement, etc. and after last week's episode of_* 'Why is 'trust me' not good enough to substantiate my seemingly impossible vignetting claims?'*_, I wonder... Has he sent a surrogate or some friendly voices in to soften up the skeptics? :
> 
> FTR, I'm no enemy of Breakthrough or anyone else hawking gear for that matter. I welcome a useful new product idea. I just want to see substantiation of claims + any fine print needed to attain that performance level in real use.
> 
> Their product concept looks interesting, honestly. But their claims and chief person speaking to those claims, on the other hand, have moved me 'curious / I wonder how they pulled that off / tell me more' to outright skeptical. It's nothing personal, angry or inappropriate. It's just that I tend to barter in facts / logic / proof, and responses of 'trust me' do not motivate me to reach for my wallet.



+1

When someone makes claims, then when called on to support them with evidence, they refuse, insist others just trust them, and become belligerent – that makes me highly skeptical. When that individual represents a company, and goes on to accuse their highly-reputed competitors of incompetence or outright lying, and still refuse to back up their claims with evidence – to me, that's unacceptable.


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## Jack Douglas (May 8, 2017)

Boy is this the real Neuro, being so soft spoken?  I agree and can't understand how anyone doesn't recognize the wisdom in the previous posts that point out similar. Perhaps it boils down to someone representing sales that should stick to the technical end of the business where they hopefully shine?

Jack


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## JPAZ (May 8, 2017)

FWIW and this is only my opinion. I have filters by B&W and by Breakthrough and am happy with both. I have CPLs UVs, and NDs (3, 6, 9 stop). There are some others in a drawer somewhere by other companies that got put into that drawer because they are not very good. I would have no problem recommending Breakthrough and feel that their claims about color cast and quality are accurate. The first purchase from Breakthrough was direct and went well but the number of customer service issues brought up on these threads have made me purchase subsequently from one of our favorite New York vendors so returns or customer service would be through them.


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## jeffa4444 (May 9, 2017)

Let look at one of the technical claims 

Schott B270 is an Ultra White Glass according to Schott and has a fire polished surface. This means the surface of the glass is heated to a very high melting point to create a flat polished surface, in doing so it will be harder than ordinary plate glass. It is a form of toughened glass but not in the same realm as toughened glass you would get for oven door or severe applications where chemicals would be used to toughen the glass. 

Schott B270 is being used by Nisi so the claim about being the first company with toughened glass if indeed its classified as such is not true in the camera filter market. Schott dont make any claims on there technical sheet about it being toughened. If I had to guess I would say Nisi are the supplier but I maybe wrong. 

A simple Google search would explain the processes for toughened glass but like everything there are degrees of toughness.


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## jeffa4444 (May 9, 2017)

Sorry I should have pointed out tempered / toughened are inter-changeable in this context.


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## ijohnsson (May 28, 2017)

I can see why one would use ND filters to extend exposures, but GNDs? Today? I used a ton of Singh-Ray GNDs in the 80s and 90s when I was still shooting film. These days it is so much easier to just bracket the exposures and blend in post.


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## privatebydesign (May 28, 2017)

ijohnsson said:


> I can see why one would use ND filters to extend exposures, but GNDs? Today? I used a ton of Singh-Ray GNDs in the 80s and 90s when I was still shooting film. These days it is so much easier to just bracket the exposures and blend in post.



Not only is it easier, the results from luminosity mask blending gives vastly better results than the use of GND's ever could.


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