# Tilta shows off a cooling module for the Canon EOS R5



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 26, 2020)

> Unless you’ve been living under a rock, you’ve probably heard about the heat issues with the Canon EOS R5 when recording high-resolution 4K or 8K video.
> I haven’t touched the camera, so I’m not jumping in with an opinion. However, what I have noticed on social media is very different results and conclusions about using the EOS R5 as a video camera regarding heat. There have been those that have said it is unusable for videography work, and there are others that have said they haven’t had an issue and have loved shooting with it.
> Knowing social media, it’s probably somewhere in the middle.
> Now we have the company Tilta that is showing off a fan that quickly mounts to the rear Canon EOS R5 when the screen is flipped out. As you can see by the images below, it’s pretty and may look like it it’ll be an effective solution, but I...



Continue reading...


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## adigoks (Jul 26, 2020)

> Simply blowing environmental air at the camera without any way for the camera to exhaust the heat likely won’t have any real effect on cooling the camera down


Yes same as i thought. but we should wait for someone to test it out.


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## yaakovsloman (Jul 26, 2020)

adigoks said:


> Yes same as i thought. but we should wait for someone to test it out.



The exploded view shows a Peltier module, so it’s active cooling. The fan is cooling for the hot side of the module, not the camera.


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## Mark3794 (Jul 26, 2020)

They have a peltier cooling module so actually i think it can cool down the camera. We have to see the tests


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 26, 2020)

The problem here is the plastic on the outside of the camera. Plastic for the most part is an insulator, so a Peltier cooler is not going to draw heat through the plastic.


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## Jack Douglas (Jul 26, 2020)

Heat conduction is somewhat like a series/parallel resistive circuit preceding the location where this heatsink is placed so its efficiency will be very much dependent on the path from the heat source to the location of the sink. Intuition says it's not going to be super.

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Jul 26, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The problem here is the plastic on the outside of the camera. Plastic for the most part is an insulator, so a Peltier cooler is not going to draw heat through the plastic.


There is a great deal of ambiguity here. What type of "plastic", how thick etc. will influence the thermal resistance and we know none of this so it's kind of pointless to speculate.

Jack


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## timmy_650 (Jul 26, 2020)

So my wife has a mini fridge with a Peltier cooler which isnt much bigger than that. I had to replace the rear fans bc they were going bad, so I played around with it. So I think it there is a fair chance that it will work. Not as good as a C200 body but you will notice a difference.


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## dwarven (Jul 26, 2020)

Surely they’d have thoroughly tested the overheating aspect while they were developing the camera right? I’m skeptical that it’s as bad as some people are saying. Could be that the preproduction firmware on the review bodies is not as well optimized as the production models. Inefficient software can definitely cause a device to overheat.
A lot of the early reviewers probably want to cash in on the drama and hype. I’ll be waiting for Gordon Laing’s in-depth review. He’s the most fair and drama free camera review channel I’ve seen so far.


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## masterpix (Jul 26, 2020)

I wonder if is it possible to cool the body like that, there is no real connection between the heat source and the fan. Other thing is that the size of the fan don't allow the user to look into the OVF. Anw have teh screen open all the time.


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## bbb34 (Jul 26, 2020)

This solution works, if the camera has a good thermal interface to the backside of the camera.

Drilling holes into the camera wouldn´t help much.


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## bbb34 (Jul 26, 2020)

masterpix said:


> I wonder if is it possible to cool the body like that, there is no real connection between the heat source and the fan. Other thing is that the size of the fan don't allow the user to look into the OVF. Anw have teh screen open all the time.



The screen is folded out. This cooler goes where the screen was before.


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## genriquez (Jul 26, 2020)

Agree. Without a direct connection to the processor this will most likely not be very effective. To get the heat to escape fast you need heat sinks or heat pipes (like the 1dx ii) on the processor as well as a fan. Canon should just make a version of the R5 that ditches the weather sealing and has holes or exhaust it in to end this silly debate for hybrid shooters.

I don't think that the heat will transfer fast enough through the body. Plus I'm gonna guess that the R5 is designed to exhaust heat forward (I think the 5d IV did this) instead of backward.


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## skp (Jul 26, 2020)

I still really want to see Linus Tech Tips mod an R5 like they did with their Red.


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## Tom W (Jul 26, 2020)

I have my doubts, but a true test of 8K video run time with and without the cooler would be the best test. If it extends the run time by 50%, it might be worthwhile. 10%, maybe not.


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## BeenThere (Jul 26, 2020)

bbb34 said:


> This solution works, if the camera has a good thermal interface to the backside of the camera.
> 
> Drilling holes into the camera wouldn´t help much.


Right. A conduction path from the heat generators to the cooler has a chance of helping. However, relying on internal convection will be minimally useful. And as was previously stated, condensation can become an issue if parts are cooled below room temperature. Interesting though that some entrepreneur jumped on this right away. Was there anticipation of an issue? I’m skeptical that many will find this to be a practical answer if they do have overheating problems in their use. A more likely solution would be an external recorder, or a true dedicated video camera IMO.


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## pererik_2000 (Jul 26, 2020)

My first thought around this was that, maybe Canon has been clever designing the body such as they have prepared for a battery grip with a fan and a termal connection to the interior of the body, accessible through the battey chamber and thus in normal cases weather sealed. The termal connection could be either conduction (Peltier?) or convection based (air channels).


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## Joules (Jul 26, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> There is a great deal of ambiguity here. What type of "plastic", how thick etc. will influence the thermal resistance and we know none of this so it's kind of pointless to speculate.
> 
> Jack


This is worth emphasizing. After all, it is very much in Canon's own interest to use materials that help with heat dissipation.

Also, my from my experience, this cooling device is placed perfectly. That is only based on my 600D, which did get very warm in the area behind the screen when being pushed by Magic Lantern.

Also, keep in mind that we aren't dealing with a huge amount of heat here. It is just too much for the camera to dissipate it faster than it builds up. But getting around 20 Minutes of recording and further recordings after a few minutes of passive cooling makes me believe that even a little active heat dissipation will help a lot. It's the same issues flag ship smartphones are having. Asus sells a simple cooling fan attachment for their gaming smartphone and it does actually work. But as noted, not much will come from speculating either way. The cameras aren't even out in the hands of consumers yet.

People have also had success with cooling DSLR in this way for astro in the past:









T3ia DSLR cooler Mod...DIY - DSLR, Mirrorless & General-Purpose Digital Camera DSO Imaging - Cloudy Nights


Page 1 of 2 - T3ia DSLR cooler Mod...DIY - posted in DSLR, Mirrorless & General-Purpose Digital Camera DSO Imaging: Hi everyone, i though i might show my home,made cooler mod for my T3ia DSLR canon. Its completely detachable from the DSLR... all the part were found on Amazon and Ebay. took...




www.cloudynights.com


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## AlanF (Jul 26, 2020)

I don't do video so this discussion about the camera cutting out doesn't really worry me. What would worry me is if the sensor gets warm and it increases the noise in the circuits, which would be noticeable at lower isos.,


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## CanoKnight (Jul 26, 2020)

The only realistic thing for Canon to do (besides bending their heads down to their knees and apologizing) is to discontinue the model and come out with a quick successor - the R5b , one that will have vents and a fan. The PR damage is already done but if they act fast they may get some to look past the initial blunder.


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## jam05 (Jul 26, 2020)

I'm quite sure they already used and infrared thermometer and tested it. It should work if using the proper CFM and dm rating. Yes blowing forced air onto equipment will lower the ambient temperature at which the equipment operates. Many radars and complex equipment systems may continue to operate uponin losing air conditioning in an emergency with the use of fans in close proximity. Many times for days. Remember those huge equipment racks with racks of equipment modules etc. What sits at the very top of them? You guessed it, fans.


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## Starting out EOS R (Jul 26, 2020)

More worryingly is the C&T Northrup video where she had the camera overheating taking stills and the battery running out after an hour, plus EVF blackout. A really weird video that totally contradicts the Canon Ambassador reviews who clearly said the VF was almost like using a DSLR View finder on both mechanical 12FPS & Electronic 20FPS. If there is overheating on stills, that is worrying but something doesn't seem right with this?


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## LSXPhotog (Jul 26, 2020)

What is your source that the camera body is plastic? Canon claims its magnesium alloy shell and it's pretty clearly made from metal in this "Terminator" image. Haha

Magnesium alloy is the 7th most efficient metal with thermal conductivity.


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## Joules (Jul 26, 2020)

CanoKnight said:


> The only realistic thing for Canon to do (besides bending their heads down to their knees and apologizing) is to discontinue the model and come out with a quick successor - the R5b , one that will have vents and a fan. The PR damage is already done but if they act fast they may get many people to look past the initial blunder.


What PR damage? Sony has been getting away with compromising for years. And now that Canon wants to have a slice of that cake as well (While currently outperforming all competitors in terms of specs, mind you!), it is suddenly doing damage to your PR if you have reasonable trade-offs in your product? Trade-offs concerning video, on a camera that is primarily stills oriented, even.

I mean, it's nice to see the Sony trolls innovating  But a moderate perspective on things continues to be advisable in my opinion.


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## BeenThere (Jul 26, 2020)

CanoKnight said:


> The only realistic thing for Canon to do (besides bending their heads down to their knees and apologizing) is to discontinue the model and come out with a quick successor - the R5b , one that will have vents and a fan. The PR damage is already done but if they act fast they may get many people to look past the initial blunder.


Haha haha.


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## jam05 (Jul 26, 2020)

Actually forced air has been the most desired ventilation for electronic equipment. Even with AC, equipment room racks most often still have forced air fans at the top to move and dissipate heat.


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## jam05 (Jul 26, 2020)

ok


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## bbb34 (Jul 26, 2020)

This is the chassis of the R5 (from https://asia.canon/en/consumer/eos-r5-body/product):



One can see the inside of the back. Different from older DSLR, the backside is closed. That is good for the cooling.

There must be some heat management from heat sources to the body.

The best way to transport a lot of heat in a cramped space are heat pipes. I expect to see some of them in the first R5 tear-down video.

Air channels need a lot of volume, for the air, and for chunky heat sinks with fins.


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 26, 2020)

CanoKnight said:


> The only realistic thing for Canon to do (besides bending their heads down to their knees and apologizing) is to discontinue the model and come out with a quick successor - the R5b , one that will have vents and a fan. The PR damage is already done but if they act fast they may get many people to look past the initial blunder.


Comedy gold, thanks I needed that!!!!


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## BeenThere (Jul 26, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Actually forced air has been the most desired ventilation for electronic equipment. Even with AC, equipment room racks most often still have forced air fans at the top to move and dissipate heat.


Desirable, but not very efficient unless there is a lot of air flow directly over the hot components. Take a look at how CPU coolers work. A thermal block is mounted directly on the CPU, the block uses conduction to remove heat from the CPU, and then a fan or liquid cooler removes heat from the block which has large cooling fins built into it.


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## bbb34 (Jul 26, 2020)

Only the simplest CPU coolers rely only on heat conduction. Most of them have heat pipes to move the heat away from the bottleneck. Like this one, where you can easily see the heat pipes that are made from copper.


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## LSXPhotog (Jul 26, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> More worryingly is the C&T Northrup video where she had the camera overheating taking stills and the battery running out after an hour, plus EVF blackout. a really weird video that totally contradicts the Canon Ambassador reviews who clearly said the VF was almost like using a DSLR View finder. If there is overheating on stills, that is worrying but something doesn't seem right with this?



I don't believe a single thing those people say. Just finished watching their video and it was a joke.

"You can't choose the subject" then doesn't explain (or maybe doesn't know) that you can manually select the object with your eye on the viewfinder two different ways - 1.) With "initial AF selection" using a manually moveable box. 2.) With touch and drag. These guys went out there and just let the camera do everything? How about a deep dive into the AF features and modes I know are there that make the camera work better? Even DPReview knows about this and brings it up.

'*EVF blackout caused me to lose my subject!' No....no it didn't. Absolutely everything I've heard is that the EVF lag is nearly non existent and is absolutely gone in electronic shutter mode. It's also refreshing at 120Hz. I need to come in before my race this weekend so I can actually test it as a professional motorsports photographer and not a YouTuber that doesn't make their living off professional photo assignments. Haha

The battery life has me deeply DEEPLY concerned. From most accounts, the battery has performed poorly. Something to consider is that all of these people online are using an external recorded to record their EVF at the same time which drains battery. Nobody is walking around taking photos with an external recorder. LOL I've also heard that it lasts all day, who knows. If I can get EOS R life, I'll be happy. But, just judging from their track record of questionable information, I'd like to know if she started with a brand new, freshly charged LP-E6NH battery...or if this is another SD card sham like they pulled at the Canon press event in Hawaii.


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## Starting out EOS R (Jul 26, 2020)

LSXPhotog said:


> I don't believe a single thing those people say. Just finished watching their video and it was a joke.
> 
> "You can't choose the subject" then doesn't explain (or maybe doesn't know) that you can manually select the object with your eye on the viewfinder two different ways - 1.) With "initial AF selection" using a manually moveable box. 2.) With touch and drag. These guys went out there and just let the camera do everything? How about a deep dive into the AF features and modes I know are there that make the camera work better? Even DPReview knows about this and brings it up.
> 
> ...


All great points. I was surprised that Tony was really impressed with the AF. That must have hurt him to say that but it all seemed a little weird and totally contradictory. Probably not ideal that they were using an adapter, 2x converter and a very big EF lens which isn't probably representative of the ultimate AF performance if RF lenses had been used.

Like you, I've seen other interviews that said the battery life was pretty good and no overheating issues.

I'm sure that the camera will have some things that are not perfect but Chelsea painted a very dismal picture that they must realise could be quite damaging, or do they not care and just want views??

Personally I cant wait for it to arrive at the end of the week and I'll make my own mind up.


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## genriquez (Jul 26, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> More worryingly is the C&T Northrup video where she had the camera overheating taking stills and the battery running out after an hour, plus EVF blackout. A really weird video that totally contradicts the Canon Ambassador reviews who clearly said the VF was almost like using a DSLR View finder on both mechanical 12FPS & Electronic 20FPS. If there is overheating on stills, that is worrying but something doesn't seem right with this?



Do we know the ambient they were shooting at? I'm a few hours away from CT and it's been 90+ degrees F out here. Maybe long exposure to a hot ambient disabled the intensive video options (but allows the regular 4k)


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## Starting out EOS R (Jul 26, 2020)

genriquez said:


> Do we know the ambient they were shooting at? I'm a few hours away from CT and it's been 90+ degrees F out here. Maybe long exposure to a hot ambient disabled the intensive video options (but allows the regular 4k)


Nope, no idea on the temperatures but this was more about getting hot & overheating after taking stills, not video.


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## CaMeRa QuEsT (Jul 26, 2020)

I did previously mention that somebody will come out with a Peltier or straight blowing fan for the R5/R6 sooner or later, but I am amazed at how soon both solutions have appeared:

This is a screengrab from the video mentioned in the previous blog post:




And here is the exact same blower on ebay ($35, 160 Mph blowing speed):









Greenworks 24012 7 Amp Single Speed Electric 160 MPH Blower | eBay


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Granted, the Peltier option will allow for longer continuous shooting, while the leaf blower option will only work between takes. Both are valid walkarounds for the overheating problem, while still maintaining the R5/R6's low-cost FF 8K/4K60p edge over other alternatives. Only downside is they don't have the Canon brand stamped on them.


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## LSXPhotog (Jul 26, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> All great points. I was surprised that Tony was really impressed with the AF. That must have hurt him to say that but it all seemed a little weird and totally contradictory. Probably not ideal that they were using an adapter, 2x converter and a very big EF lens which isn't probably representative of the ultimate AF performance if RF lenses had been used.
> 
> Like you, I've seen other interviews that said the battery life was pretty good and no overheating issues.
> 
> ...


I would like to add to this because they are also great points. Just watching their AF woes when using the worst option for AF made me laugh. The first thing I did when I got my R was turn on "Initial AF Selection" to manually be controlled by ME, the photographer. Anybody out there that's letting a camera make every decision for them is probably an indicator of why they don't do it for a living. LOL JK Nobody knows what you want to focus on better than YOU. At a wedding when there are 15-20 faces in a frame, I can put a box over the bride and not worry at all. This methodology would lead to a lot of frustration and, likely they would blame the gear when it's entirely user error. Testing a lens the way they would normally shoot and pushing on the camera hard to work in a less-than-ideal lens combo is fine, but I think they should also balance those findings out with other lens combinations. This is exactly one lens being used for a determination of AF aquiity, which irresponsible journalism.

While I have a battery grip on order - along with three other batteries - I do not like changing my batteries out often if I don't have to. I rarely am in a shooting scenario where I can't just flip a door and change a battery or cars. As a matter of fact, I will rotate cards and batteries every time I go back into a media center or there is a pause during a day. But as soon as I saw her talk about battery life, I realized it was a horrible explanation. Where did the battery start. Did you ever turn the camera or IS system off? Where you living inside the EVF that entire time? How had the use of an external recorder the entire time influenced battery life? etcetera, etcetera! There are a lot of information that should be considered.

Oh, and they showed animal eye detection taking a shot of a dog's nose? That's not a fair representation of what everyone else has already demonstrated, so it's their job to figure out what they did wrong.

I can't wait to get mine in as well. My plan is to throw it to the wolves shooting this weekend. This will be 200+mph cars on track at a race, multiple magazine shoots, portraits, and event coverage - basically everything I do with my cameras. So if I can push it there and it works for me, I'm happy and couldn't care less about any problems others are having trying to shoot 1TB of 8K RAW footage for the vlog. haha


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## LSXPhotog (Jul 26, 2020)

CaMeRa QuEsT said:


> I did previously mention that somebody will come out with a Peltier or straight blowing fan for the R5/R6 sooner or later, but I am amazed at how soon both solutions have appeared:
> 
> This is a screengrab from the video mentioned in the previous blog post:
> 
> ...



The main benefit to the Peltier cooling module is that it works during the process that the camera is creating the heat. This helps to reduce the build-up and extend the time it takes to get hot. Those other solutions appear to have been used AFTER the camera was already hot in an attempt to cool it.

People want to crack on this cooler for it not working. Peltier cooling is insanely capable - although the heatsink on the back of this one doesn't look all that effective, which will diminish the effectiveness of the whole thing.

I personally hope it works as advertised...because it could be a legitimate solution that would be no different than internal cooling...it just comes down to how well it can work on the R5 and/or R6 with their different body materials and how the heat is being distributed within the camera. If the heat is mainly building up on the back panel where this is attached to, then thermal transfer will work back to the source to push back the heat. This is how CPU coolers work.


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## BeenThere (Jul 26, 2020)

bbb34 said:


> Only the simplest CPU coolers rely only on heat conduction. Most of them have heat pipes to move the heat away from the bottleneck. Like this one, where you can easily see the heat pipes that are made from copper.
> View attachment 191584


That white block at the bottom of your photo is not the CPU. It is the CONDUCTION BLOCK that is in direct contact (actually a thin layer of thermal grease is inbetween) with a CPU (not in the image). The heat pipes draw heat from this block. All those fins you see are to exchange heat with air that is expelled to the exterior environment. Not much air space inside a camera body, and the air that is there has no place to go.


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## BeenThere (Jul 26, 2020)

LSXPhotog said:


> The main benefit to the Peltier cooling module is that it works during the process that the camera is creating the heat. This helps to reduce the build-up and extend the time it takes to get hot. Those other solutions appear to have been used AFTER the camera was already hot in an attempt to cool it.
> 
> People want to crack on this cooler for it not working. Peltier cooling is insanely capable - although the heatsink on the back of this one doesn't look all that effective, which will diminish the effectiveness of the whole thing.
> 
> I personally hope it works as advertised...because it could be a legitimate solution that would be no different than internal cooling...it just comes down to how well it can work on the R5 and/or R6 with their different body materials and how the heat is being distributed within the camera. If the heat is mainly building up on the back panel where this is attached to, then thermal transfer will work back to the source to push back the heat. This is how CPU coolers work.


Peltier coolers are useful if you have plenty of energy available to power them. Either a plug in power supply, or a sizeable battery. Those Astro guys go to extremes to reduce sensor noise. Not unusual to have a car battery to drive equipment in the field (tracking mount, computer, sensor cooling).


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## TomR (Jul 26, 2020)

Armando thinks this fan is a gimmick


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287288684081868800


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## David - Sydney (Jul 26, 2020)

I think that Canon missed an opportunity to increase the sales of the grip with the 5Ghz transmitter/ ethernet by not having a heat pipe into it. Even extending the video recording times by 10 minutes may have pushed sales of the more expensive grip a lot.


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## CaMeRa QuEsT (Jul 27, 2020)

TomR said:


> Armando thinks this fan is a gimmick
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287288684081868800



If that's true, then the overheating problem lies in the sensor not having a physical conduit, for example a heat pipe, to route heat out of it to a separate, larger heat sink due to it having to float freely inside the IBIS unit, thus there is no possible workaround to cool it down in a fast manner other than blowing cool air directly onto the sensor's surface, which will explain the fan-cooled EF-to-RF adapter Canon patent that is floating around. In the Northrups' second video, Chelsea explains that after an hour of still shooting, the battery was mostly depleted and also couldn't make a video longer than just a couple minutes before an overheating warning would stop her from further shooting. Things do really not good now, but then I've never really been very interested in either one of these bodies.


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## tss68nl (Jul 27, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The problem here is the plastic on the outside of the camera. Plastic for the most part is an insulator, so a Peltier cooler is not going to draw heat through the plastic.



Well, it all comes down to thickness. If plastic would insulate heat that well, all refrigerators would just have a thin plastic wall.

The plastic underneath the screen is probably going to be paper thin and sandwiched to the magnesium alloy frame backing plate and is basically one connected piece with the rest of the body. With a peltier element, you will be able to cool the entire magnesium alloy body, as once you penetrate the plastic, magnesium alloys are quite good thermal conductors (less than aluminium, but way more than steel). 

The plastic will have some resistance, but the surface area is large enough to still get quite some heat through.

If there is plastic....it would be quite easy for Canon to make that part of the housing out of aluminium. Or maybe they alloyed the plastic with metals to make it more heat-conductive. Or maybe if they didn't think of that before, they'll now steal my idea and R5/R6 delivery will be delayed by a month 

Anyway. 
The external cooling element will allow you to cool the entire frame way below room temperature in advance, no matter what insulation the plastic poses. And to what extent the thermal capacity will hold up to what the R5 produces: we'll see. If they come anywhere close to 50-80% of the heating capacity it'll make a huge difference in how long you can run the camera for. It'd mean a 5-25 times increase of running times.


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## raptor3x (Jul 27, 2020)

TomR said:


> Armando thinks this fan is a gimmick
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287288684081868800



Honestly that sounds like they either put the ice in a bad place or there's some kind of overly conservative software limitation rather than something actually based on the electronics temperature. Would be really interesting if we could get some kind of thermal imaging of the camera to see how it's behaving when overheating.


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## tss68nl (Jul 27, 2020)

raptor3x said:


> Honestly that sounds like they either put the ice in a bad place or there's some kind of overly conservative software limitation rather than something actually based on the electronics temperature. Would be really interesting if we could get some kind of thermal imaging of the camera to see how it's behaving when overheating.



Well, I'd be surprised if they managed to have a contact-patch larger than a dime with the ice surface for a prolonged period. Added fact that ice will never go below 0 degrees celcius in that particular situation, where the surface of a peltier could. The 100 MPH air remarks make it even more likely they didn't know what they where doing.

Blowing air is effective when you can actually replace the hot air inside the body....but they are replacing the air outside the body, and that air is not hot anyway. So they are not creating a better thermal conductivity or just by an insignificant amount. They'd be better off keeping the body moist, then blowing air over it to evaporate. Essentially making the body sweat. But that'll just help out a couple degrees.


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 27, 2020)

raptor3x said:


> Honestly that sounds like they either put the ice in a bad place or there's some kind of overly conservative software limitation rather than something actually based on the electronics temperature. Would be really interesting if we could get some kind of thermal imaging of the camera to see how it's behaving when overheating.


That is a cool idea I have thermal cameras at work, when I get my unit I will give this a try. 

Another thing that keeps bouncing around in my head is someone tested a bunch of cfexpress cards and reported how hot they got. I really want to know how much of a factor that is by testing if I can extend record times by swapping the cards in before I see a thermal warning on screen.


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## Ben Sparrow (Jul 27, 2020)

The problem is Canon releasing a camera incapable of not overheating when shooting 8K RAW. A workaround is not a fix. A real fix will be a future release of the R5 line when they have enough technology to shoot 8K RAW without overheating. Until then...


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## weixing (Jul 27, 2020)

Astrophotographer had been modding camera to active cool the camera sensor, so I don't think it'll be difficult to do, but will void the warranty.


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 27, 2020)

Ben Sparrow said:


> The problem is Canon releasing a camera incapable of not overheating when shooting 8K RAW. A workaround is not a fix. A real fix will be a future release of the R5 line when they have *enough technology* to shoot 8K RAW without overheating. Until then...


Not sure a fan and a bigger body is a big leap for Canon.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 27, 2020)

Ben Sparrow said:


> The problem is Canon releasing a camera incapable of not overheating when shooting 8K RAW. A workaround is not a fix. A real fix will be a future release of the R5 line when they have enough technology to shoot 8K RAW without overheating. Until then...


Buy a $5,995 Z Cam, a $9,995 Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro, a $24,500 body only RED Helium S35...


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## SGo (Jul 27, 2020)

This might work. This is a peltier cooler. The heat sink and fan is not to keep the back of the camera cooler but to keep one side of the peltier cooler. If you put a voltage across a peltier device, one side get very cold and the other side get very hot. If you reverse the voltage the cold side not gets hot and the hot side get cold.
As the device get too hot, it start to loose it effceincy.


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## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2020)

Ramage said:


> Another thing that keeps bouncing around in my head is someone tested a bunch of cfexpress cards and reported how hot they got. I really want to know how much of a factor that is by testing if I can extend record times by swapping the cards in before I see a thermal warning on screen.



That dude was me. I doubt that swapping cards would have an enormous effect, but perhaps using an external recorder would cause the heat to happen outside of the camera. Just swapping cards wouldn’t hurt, and they *were* quite hot. For background, the heat was generated while doing read/write torture tests in a card reader, not in an R5.


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## vangelismm (Jul 27, 2020)

If the body is hot to touch, it will work.


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## sanj (Jul 27, 2020)

yaakovsloman said:


> The exploded view shows a Peltier module, so it’s active cooling. The fan is cooling for the hot side of the module, not the camera.


What is 'active' cooling please?


----------



## raptor3x (Jul 27, 2020)

sanj said:


> What is 'active' cooling please?



Active cooling generally means cooling facilitated with an external power source as opposed to passive cooling which does not require an external power source. With air cooling that usually means there's is some type of fan to provide forced convection where a passively cooled system with operate purely on some a combination of natural convection and conduction. You can also have forced convection but with other fluids like water, phase change system, thermoelectric systems, chemical reaction based systems, and if you want to get super fancy and achieve extremely low temperatures magnetic refrigeration systems.


----------



## BeenThere (Jul 27, 2020)

So many wonderful ideas here to fix problems. I think you guys should start your own camera manufacturing company. Think of the internet fame coming your way.


----------



## Chaitanya (Jul 27, 2020)

It's a rehoused peltier mobile cooler that can be bought for cheap on aliexpress.






mobile cooler - Buy mobile cooler with free shipping on AliExpress


Quality mobile cooler with free worldwide shipping on AliExpress




www.aliexpress.com


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 27, 2020)

TomR said:


> Armando thinks this fan is a gimmick
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287288684081868800



So basically nothing gets in and nothing gets out.

This is what I get from all the videos and articles I've encountered so far. EXCEPT for ONE: And that is from CANON themselves. They say to use an external fan. WTF??

Come one guys, enough is enough! I love Canon but we can't be apologizing about the heat issues. Canon's become a joke now.


----------



## canonnews (Jul 27, 2020)

TomR said:


> Armando thinks this fan is a gimmick
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287288684081868800



He's right in way, but the camera at the time they started cooling it was already hot, so he's also very wrong as well.

the concept of this is to reduce the temperature delta over time in a sealed space by making the magnesium alloy colder.

I wrote up about this just now. these chips (and sensors) are not getting super hot like CPU's in your laptop or computer, but any increase of temperature over ambient over time in a sealed camera will increase until the point of where it's a problem if it rises too quickly.

what this is attempting to do is reduce that "delta-T" to where it's less of a problem by adding some active lower temperature surface inside versus the hotter running chips, sensor,etc.

It's entirely possible that this will work, but it won't still cool off an already hot camera.

He also doesn't understand what a peltier device is either. Those things can get bloody cold - alot colder than ice.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Jul 27, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> So basically nothing gets in and nothing gets out.
> 
> This is what I get from all the videos and articles I've encountered so far. EXCEPT for ONE: And that is from CANON themselves. They say to use an external fan. WTF??
> 
> Come one guys, enough is enough! I love Canon but we can't be apologizing about the heat issues. Canon's become a joke now.


I think most will decide that someone other than Canon is the joke in this case.

Jack


----------



## Joules (Jul 27, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Come one guys, enough is enough! I love Canon but we can't be apologizing about the heat issues. Canon's become a joke now.


People loosing their mind over incomplete testing of a product that is not even in the hands of consumers yet and pushes the limits of technology on all aspects is a joke.

More information will become available as the cameras become available to a broader group of testers. Performance may improve over time as well, if Canon has ways to address some aspects of these cameras with firmware updates. Or it may not. Regardless, for the majority of use cases the R5 seems to provide some of the best performance available at the time. For the specific case of recording very high detail video, there is a temporal limitation, that may or may not be expanded by additional hardware. In any case, nobody is forced to make use of that. The old method of getting 4K video without overheating is still available. Canon has just added more options. Options, that few to no competitors offer at similar prices currently. Complaining about that is fair, but only as long as the context is right. Calling Canon as a whole a joke seems silly to me.


----------



## cornieleous (Jul 27, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> More worryingly is the C&T Northrup video where she had the camera overheating taking stills and the battery running out after an hour, plus EVF blackout. A really weird video that totally contradicts the Canon Ambassador reviews who clearly said the VF was almost like using a DSLR View finder on both mechanical 12FPS & Electronic 20FPS. If there is overheating on stills, that is worrying but something doesn't seem right with this?



Not worrying for me at all. I'll wait for the camera to be in my hands late this week before listening to Sony Northrup. I find him a dismal presenter and sensationalist with frequent bias. Very, very few camera gear reviewers are entertaining and honest at the same time, and Sony Northrup is neither in my opinion. People making a living cranking out sensationalist youtube content are just like influencers to me; a form of parasite existing off the actual work of others who sell themselves out and contribute little. For those of you who enjoy his 'reviews' and 'tests', carry on. Very few youtube reviewers I find balanced and entertaining. Also, just to be clear I place no brand over others, I happen to enjoy Canon but find many major brands offer great stuff these days. If it turns out there is a real issue with the R5, I will be the first to admit it, but something has been way off with a LOT of reviews and comments blowing things out of proportion. I have never seen Canon put a poorly tested camera into the field with major issues.


----------



## Joules (Jul 27, 2020)

canonnews said:


> He's right in way, but the camera at the time they started cooling it was already hot, so he's also very wrong as well.
> 
> the concept of this is to reduce the temperature delta over time in a sealed space by making the magnesium alloy colder.


We had a lot of people set them selves up for eating crow back when many were doubting the specs of the R5. I guess some still haven't got enough, so they are getting in line for a second serving  

I like your article, nice and nuanced.

I have previously linked a thread to an astro forum. There somebody attached a peltier to his T3i without any modification to the camera itself, just pushed against the are behind the screen. They claim visible differences in noise, so a decent improvement in cooling. If that can be done even with the actual plastic body of the T3i, I don't see how the paint on the magnesium shell will hinder this solution from working at all.

Probably the most interesting question is what actually generates the heat. If it is the sensor, and that has poor heat transfer to the body due to IBIS, it may actually be a problem. But in that case I don't see how they pull off 20 minutes before reaching problematic temperatures, as they should have very, very little thermal mass.


----------



## cornieleous (Jul 27, 2020)

LSXPhotog said:


> The main benefit to the Peltier cooling module is that it works during the process that the camera is creating the heat. This helps to reduce the build-up and extend the time it takes to get hot. Those other solutions appear to have been used AFTER the camera was already hot in an attempt to cool it.
> 
> People want to crack on this cooler for it not working. Peltier cooling is insanely capable - although the heatsink on the back of this one doesn't look all that effective, which will diminish the effectiveness of the whole thing.
> 
> I personally hope it works as advertised...because it could be a legitimate solution that would be no different than internal cooling...it just comes down to how well it can work on the R5 and/or R6 with their different body materials and how the heat is being distributed within the camera. If the heat is mainly building up on the back panel where this is attached to, then thermal transfer will work back to the source to push back the heat. This is how CPU coolers work.





I see no way it can work well enough through the camera body especially if that area of the body was not a designed thermal sink. Even then, it takes a lot of ambient temperature difference for a small CFM fan like that to cool a heat sink and it will probably be massively noisy. What will power it? Also, you can only cool to ambient unless you use refrigeration, so in hot conditions this will likely do little.

For me, the most legit solution to this complete non problem getting way too much attention will be not to waste thousands upgrading my memory cards, monitors, and computer for long clips of 8K workflow. I have plenty of CPU, GPU, RAID and SSD storage that is already challenged enough by 4K.

I have to wonder, was there this much hype and alleged 'disaster' and problem solving for any previous MILC overheating? All I recall is people complaining at shutdown and saying those cameras were still the best and could be used with care.


----------



## raptor3x (Jul 27, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> I see no way it can work well enough through the camera body especially if that area of the body was not a designed thermal sink. Even then, it takes a lot of ambient temperature difference for a small CFM fan like that to cool a heat sink and it will probably be massively noisy. What will power it? *Also, you can only cool to ambient unless you use refrigeration, so in hot conditions this will likely do little.*



That's exactly what a Peltier/thermoelectric cooler does, it's a solidstate refrigeration unit. The fan is to cool off the hot side of the peltier element, not the camera body directly. Even the ubiquitous Tec1-12706 elements that you can buy anywhere for a few dollars should be able to provide some pretty significant cooling 60C worth of deltaT.


----------



## kozakm00 (Jul 27, 2020)

EOS HD tried to cool R5 with bag of ice with little to no effect, can't imagine how this could have any effect at all.


----------



## Joules (Jul 27, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> I see no way it can work well enough through the camera body especially if that area of the body was not a designed thermal sink.


As I provided earlier, this sort of stuff absolutely works, even for cameras with plastic shells (which the R5 is not):









T3ia DSLR cooler Mod...DIY - DSLR, Mirrorless & General-Purpose Digital Camera DSO Imaging - Cloudy Nights


Page 1 of 2 - T3ia DSLR cooler Mod...DIY - posted in DSLR, Mirrorless & General-Purpose Digital Camera DSO Imaging: Hi everyone, i though i might show my home,made cooler mod for my T3ia DSLR canon. Its completely detachable from the DSLR... all the part were found on Amazon and Ebay. took...




www.cloudynights.com





As was also noted earlier, we aren't dealing with crazy amounts of heat here. Just a buildup over time. Symphoning off just a little of that buildup should have a good chance of extending record times, maybe to the point where even the very critical folks can no longer melt their brains in agony over this limitation. Or more likely, they'll go on bashing something else.


----------



## mb66energy (Jul 27, 2020)

Joules said:


> [...]
> Also, my from my experience, this cooling device is placed perfectly. That is only based on my 600D, which did get very warm in the area behind the screen when being pushed by Magic Lantern.
> [...]
> But getting around 20 Minutes of recording and further recordings after a few minutes of passive cooling makes me believe that even a little active heat dissipation will help a lot.
> [...]



So my 600D with ML is NOT an exception! Good to hear. Thought about a 5V-fan operated by a power bank (like the camera) which is mounted via the hot shoe and blows air downwards around sensor back and inner grip area which are warm ... hot.
EOS M need a lot more time to achieve the same temperature - the metal housing helps maybe ...

2nd point: Yes, I do think that too. And I like Canon for the fact that they give that information to potential users instead letting users find out about that property of the camera themselves.


----------



## Joules (Jul 27, 2020)

kozakm00 said:


> EOS HD tried to cool R5 with bag of ice with little to no effect, can't imagine how this could have any effect at all.


Care to link to that test? I couldn't find it on the fly.

Without some insight into the methodology, no parallels can be drawn to the solution discussed here.


----------



## mb66energy (Jul 27, 2020)

Heat flow rate is a matter of temperature difference.

If the camera inside has e.g. 70 °C and the outside temperature of the plastic is 50°C in operation you can cool the outside easily down to 30 °C with a (bigger) fan alone at 20°C room temperature.
Temperature difference between inside and outside is 20 °C without fan, but 40°C with fan. That results in twice the heat transfer which is proportional to the temperature difference.

The peltier might help to reduce size of the cooling device and reduce the air flow resulting in lower noise - they probably do not cool it down to -10 °C to avoid rain/dew inside the camera. So power consumption might be on the moderate side.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 27, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The problem here is the plastic on the outside of the camera. Plastic for the most part is an insulator, so a Peltier cooler is not going to draw heat through the plastic.


Scrap the plastic off, bolt the heatsink on with a heat conducting grease


----------



## mb66energy (Jul 27, 2020)

About "plastics do not conduct heat" - this is a bold statement which is close to correct for 10cm sheets of polyurethane foam in vacuum but not for 1mm compact polycarbonate sheets which have low thermal conductivity - but it's far from zero:

Thermal conductivity of polycarbonate (as example) is 0.2 watts per meter and Kelvin meaning that ..
a block of 1 m² area and 1m thickness transfers 0.2 watts (or joule per second) @ 1 Kelvin (=1 °C) temperature difference.
(by the way this is equivalent to roughly 15 centimeters of low density rockwool and would be sufficient for passive house construction or three times better than a three sheet insulating glass window (the glass))

If you have a 1mm thick and 0.0025 m² sheet of plastic - roughly a 4 x 6 cm area - you have 0.5 Watt per degree temperature difference. If the camera produces roughly 10 Watts cooling down from e.g. 50 °C to 30 °C would be sufficient to remove these 10 Watts permanently.

10 Watt power consumption should be right order of magnitude because the battery has 15 Watt hours and I would expect some hour + X for the amount of video @ 8k.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Jul 27, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Not worrying for me at all. I'll wait for the camera to be in my hands late this week before listening to Sony Northrup. I find him a dismal presenter and sensationalist with frequent bias. Very, very few camera gear reviewers are entertaining and honest at the same time, and Sony Northrup is neither in my opinion. People making a living cranking out sensationalist youtube content are just like influencers to me; a form of parasite existing off the actual work of others who sell themselves out and contribute little. For those of you who enjoy his 'reviews' and 'tests', carry on. Very few youtube reviewers I find balanced and entertaining. Also, just to be clear I place no brand over others, I happen to enjoy Canon but find many major brands offer great stuff these days. If it turns out there is a real issue with the R5, I will be the first to admit it, but something has been way off with a LOT of reviews and comments blowing things out of proportion. I have never seen Canon put a poorly tested camera into the field with major issues.


Well said!


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## mariosk1gr (Jul 27, 2020)

For me I canceled my preorder of R5. Beside photography work, I work with video a lot also so I'm very confused with all this situation. I will give 1-2 months at most to see real world reviews and take my final decision if I buy it or not. I want it badly ofc but the fear that it may overheat in front of a client is a little scary. But to be honest with you what made also to cancel is that may Canon introduce next month a new RF mount camera. I have the dream that it may be a R5C just like Canon did with original 1Dx and 1Dc. Time will tell soon I hope...


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## Starting out EOS R (Jul 27, 2020)

mariosk1gr said:


> For me I canceled my preorder of R5. Beside photography work, I work with video a lot also so I'm very confused with all this situation. I will give 1-2 months at most to see real world reviews and take my final decision if I buy it or not. I want it badly ofc but the fear that it may overheat in front of a client is a little scary. But to be honest with you what made also to cancel is that may Canon introduce next month a new RF mount camera. I have the dream that it may be a R5C just like Canon did with original 1Dx and 1Dc. Time will tell soon I hope...


I'm sure in a previous post, I read that whilst there is a new Canon RF mount camera to be announced, it wouldn't be a EOS R line body so chances are it's unlikely to be an R5C, sorry.


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## 12Broncos (Jul 27, 2020)

Unbelievable! If you had to make the camera a little bigger for cooling purposes, then do it. To me the size of the camera doesn't matter, what matters is I will be able to use it for more than fifteen minutes, then have to set it aside for forty minutes for it to cool down.


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## Ale_F (Jul 27, 2020)

I don't do video so this discussion about the heating is useless for me,
BUT
What's the limit between
Photo-camera
Video-camera
Cine-camera

I'm assuming that the border between the 1st and 2nd is becoming null, why?


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## raptor3x (Jul 27, 2020)

mb66energy said:


> The peltier might help to reduce size of the cooling device and reduce the air flow resulting in lower noise - they probably do not cool it down to -10 °C to avoid rain/dew inside the camera. So power consumption might be on the moderate side.



The peltier is going require a bigger fan that will likely be noisier since it's generating a significant amount of heat on its own. The biggest effect of the peltier is just to drive the temperature difference beyond what you can get from the natural ambient temperature.


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## Baron_Karza (Jul 27, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> I think most will decide that someone other than Canon is the joke in this case.
> 
> Jack



Really? Like who? I only see Canon being laughed at by both the community and the industry:


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## Jack Douglas (Jul 27, 2020)

It remains to be seen who gets the last laugh!  Sale numbers will be telling too.

Jack


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## Baron_Karza (Jul 27, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> It remains to be seen who gets the last laugh!  Sale numbers will be telling too.
> 
> Jack



I hope Canon does well. Actually, no... what I really hope for is that the heating issues isn't as pathetic as it is pointing out to be, and so far it really is! And if it remains that horrendous, then I hope Canon does not do well and instead learns from their mistake.


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## Jack Douglas (Jul 27, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> I hope Canon does well. Actually, no... what I really hope for is that the heating issues isn't as pathetic as it is pointing out to be, and so far it really is! And if it remains that horrendous, then I hope Canon does not do well and instead learns from their mistake.


It's a non-issue for me. I will use what it is capable of delivering (and it isn't pathetic) and be happy as can be. This issue is completely overblown and associated with folk who consistently complain instead of being thankful for the amazing multi-brand products we have access to. For me it's analogous to those who join protests so they can trash and loot. As an electrical engineer, I understand the physics of heatsinking and the challenges and compromises involved.

Jack


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 27, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> It's a non-issue for me. I will use what it is capable of delivering (and it isn't pathetic) and be happy as can be. This issue is completely overblown and associated with folk who consistently complain instead of being thankful for the amazing multi-brand products we have access to. For me it's analogous to those who join protests so they can trash and loot. As an electrical engineer, I understand the physics of heatsinking and the challenges and compromises involved.
> 
> Jack



I disagree with that.

As an electrical engineer, you should know that Canon could have implemented a solution but didn't.


----------



## cornieleous (Jul 27, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> I hope Canon does well. Actually, no... what I really hope for is that the heating issues isn't as pathetic as it is pointing out to be, and so far it really is! And if it remains that horrendous, then I hope Canon does not do well and instead learns from their mistake.




Pathetic? No cameras in customer hands yet and you say it is pathetic and horrendous and hope Canon learns from their mistake? 

The R5 and R6 are only a mistake for those who should own a 12MP low bitrate brick shaped video camera, not a stills power house with video features and full weather sealing with excellent ergonomics and lenses.

Stop watching so many youtube influencers.



Baron_Karza said:


> As an electrical engineer, you should know that Canon could have implemented a solution but didn't.


Whiners never cease. Always the same thing. 'Canon could have and should have but betrayed the customer!' How many cameras have YOU designed that can shoot this bitrate of data with weather sealing? Why are you even here? Why not out shooting your much superior Sonikon and enjoying life? Or is there an agenda behind your continued complaining?


----------



## SteveC (Jul 27, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Pathetic? No cameras in customer hands yet and you say it is pathetic and horrendous and hope Canon learns from their mistake?
> 
> The R5 and R6 are only a mistake for those who should own a 12MP low bitrate brick shaped video camera, not a stills power house with video features and full weather sealing with excellent ergonomics and lenses.
> 
> ...



I put Mr. Karza on ignore a couple of weeks ago, and so far I've seen nothing to indicate that was a wrong choice. I hope Sony isn't paying him too much, he's doing a terrible job for them.


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## mb66energy (Jul 27, 2020)

raptor3x said:


> The peltier is going require a bigger fan that will likely be noisier since it's generating a significant amount of heat on its own. The biggest effect of the peltier is just to drive the temperature difference beyond what you can get from the natural ambient temperature.


Yeah, you are right, I always think of peltiers like 100 % efficiency devices but they have less. Just today I printed a fan holder for my 600D to cool it by air flow: marginal effect through the plastic housing. So you are right too with using the peltier to get a lower temperture on the back side of the camera!


----------



## Dragon (Jul 27, 2020)

bbb34 said:


> Only the simplest CPU coolers rely only on heat conduction. Most of them have heat pipes to move the heat away from the bottleneck. Like this one, where you can easily see the heat pipes that are made from copper.
> View attachment 191584


Uh, the fact that the heat pipes are made of copper is a marketing gimmick and has just slightly more than nothing to do with the efficiency of the heat pipe. Go study how a heat pipe works. Clue- it's an evaporation/condensation cycle.


----------



## jvillain (Jul 27, 2020)

This is certainly a bad look for Canon but is likley the low water mark. Taiwan semi is building a 5nm fab in the US for the US gov and are getting ready to build a 3nm fab back in Taiwan. That says the pace of shrinking circuits is still moving at a good pace. As Canon is able to incorperate the state of th art and incoporate it in their fabs they will be able to take advantage of the ever shrinking transitor size the circuitry will require less power which will produce less heat and use less power. The R5/6 won't benifit from that but the MKII might.


----------



## Kit Lens Jockey (Jul 27, 2020)

12Broncos said:


> Unbelievable! If you had to make the camera a little bigger for cooling purposes, then do it. To me the size of the camera doesn't matter, what matters is I will be able to use it for more than fifteen minutes, then have to set it aside for forty minutes for it to cool down.


It was not just a matter of making the camera bigger. Almost all serious cinema cameras have air vents and fans to circulate air through the body. This is a stills camera first and foremost. And if Canon had come out with a 5 series level of camera that claimed *no* weather sealing due to the camera having air vents in and out of it, the backlash against the camera would have been *much* bigger than if the camera just needed some breaks when using its most intensive video modes. People seem to have totally forgotten this is a stills camera first and foremost. And professional stills cameras are expected to be weather sealed. Seems like Canon just can't make people happy... Put amazing video capability into a stills camera as a bonus, and people are ready to crucify Canon because that stills camera won't perform to the level of a dedicated cinema camera.


----------



## Fast351 (Jul 27, 2020)

pererik_2000 said:


> My first thought around this was that, maybe Canon has been clever designing the body such as they have prepared for a battery grip with a fan and a termal connection to the interior of the body, accessible through the battey chamber and thus in normal cases weather sealed. The termal connection could be either conduction (Peltier?) or convection based (air channels).



I was surprised that Canon didn't do something like this. Like a metal plate covered by a plastic cover on the bottom of the body that could be exposed to couple to a cooling device with thermal paste...


----------



## Jack Douglas (Jul 28, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> It was not just a matter of making the camera bigger. Almost all serious cinema cameras have air vents and fans to circulate air through the body. This is a stills camera first and foremost. And if Canon had come out with a 5 series level of camera that claimed *no* weather sealing due to the camera having air vents in and out of it, the backlash against the camera would have been *much* bigger than if the camera just needed some breaks when using its most intensive video modes. People seem to have totally forgotten this is a stills camera first and foremost. And professional stills cameras are expected to be weather sealed. Seems like Canon just can't make people happy... Put amazing video capability into a stills camera as a bonus, and people are ready to crucify Canon because that stills camera won't perform to the level of a dedicated cinema camera.


Oh no; Canon does make people happy and I'm one of them. Where Canon has trouble is in making the haters on the other side, happy - seems they do just the opposite, which is fine by me. Let the whiners be perpetually unhappy and waste their lives.

Jack


----------



## wanderer23 (Jul 28, 2020)

Amazed at the level of technical expertise here, very impressive. The way I see it, it takes one real world review to say this thing is useless to make it all fall apart for Tilta (i'm sure they'll sell tons of the cage anyway but for the coolling unit). So they must know at least from preliminary testing that it does something at least half decent. Hard to think their quoted #'s came out of pure speculation or marketing-team only.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Jul 28, 2020)

Things getting worse for the R5, now apparently if you shoot stills for an hour then want to use the video modes, you can't the camera has already overheated too much. Honestly, that's a deal breaker. As a birder I like to shot a little video in the field, 4K120p would be nice for some stuff. Canon can't be pushing the video angle heavily on one hand then saying it's only for very casual shooters. If it were a $2K camera I could accept that, but to pay big premium for video features tha may not even be usable ina normal workflow is poor form. 

Looking at the internal board layout for the R5 it puts lot of hot components next to the sensor. Maybe they need a redesign with passive cooling and vents that can be opened and closed as needed. I was going to wait until after Xmas as it was before getting one, but now I'm going to sit pat and see how this plays out.


----------



## bbb34 (Jul 28, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Uh, the fact that the heat pipes are made of copper is a marketing gimmick and has just slightly more than nothing to do with the efficiency of the heat pipe. Go study how a heat pipe works. Clue- it's an evaporation/condensation cycle.



Copper is by far the dominant heat pipe envelope material for cooling of electronic devices. The reason is not marketing, but compatibility with the working fluid: water or methanol. See here: ACT, or Wikipedia, or whatever you prefer.

Clue: If you write your postings in a less patronizing tone, it will be easier to admit being mistaken.


----------



## Dragon (Jul 28, 2020)

bbb34 said:


> Copper is by far the dominant heat pipe envelope material for cooling of electronic devices. The reason is not marketing, but compatibility with the working fluid: water or methanol. See here: ACT, or Wikipedia, or whatever you prefer.
> 
> Clue: If you write your postings in a less patronizing tone, it will be easier to admit being mistaken.


Yes, compatibility is a reason, but the way you made your first statement, it sounded like you were proposing that the copper was the medium moving the heat. Sorry if I misinterpreted your intent. Aside from working fluid compatibility, for CPU cooling, copper is useful at the evaporator end because it is easy to bond to the copper heat spreader block. At the condenser end, it is less than ideal because for all but the most far out designs, aluminum fins are used and they are not easily bondable to the copper pipes, resulting typically in a pressure contact at best. For a camera heat pipe, copper would be unacceptably heavy (likely the reason you don't see many heat pipes in cameras), which could lead to something creative like carbon fiber tubes. Also graphene may well be a more suitable thermal transport approach due to its light weight and simplicity.


----------



## adigoks (Jul 28, 2020)

just imagine if this stuff works. it maybe also work on fuji XT4 , A7SIII, & all camera with flipside screen . 
with that into consideration, eventually flipside screen would be a norm.


----------



## bbb34 (Jul 28, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Yes, compatibility is a reason, but the way you made your first statement, it sounded like you were proposing that the copper was the medium moving the heat. Sorry if I misinterpreted your intent. Aside from working fluid compatibility, for CPU cooling, copper is useful at the evaporator end because it is easy to bond to the copper heat spreader block. At the condenser end, it is less than ideal because for all but the most far out designs, aluminum fins are used and they are not easily bondable to the copper pipes, resulting typically in a pressure contact at best. For a camera heat pipe, copper would be unacceptably heavy (likely the reason you don't see many heat pipes in cameras), which could lead to something creative like carbon fiber tubes. Also graphene may well be a more suitable thermal transport approach due to its light weight and simplicity.



No, my friend, compatibility is _the_ reason. I mentioned copper to let people who have never seen a heat pipe discover it in the image.

You should stick to read what people write, not try to interpret their intent.

Most people don't see heat pipes in cameras and mobile phones, because they usually don't open them. 

How heavy do you think are heat pipes? How thick do you think is the envelope?

Now, you make me really curious, do you think heat pipes are used in mobile devices because, or despite their weight?


----------



## Dragon (Jul 28, 2020)

bbb34 said:


> No, my friend, compatibility is _the_ reason. I mentioned copper to let people who have never seen a heat pipe discover it in the image.
> 
> You should stick to read what people write, not try to interpret their intent.
> 
> ...


Now you are the one being smug. I have opened a number of laptops that that had aluminum heat pipes. Compatibility is not an absolute, but rather a matter of lifetime. If the product lifetime is estimated to be less than the lifetime of the heat pipe, then alternate materials are sometimes used. Heat pipes are generally lighter than conduction cooling and often heavier than fans. The cooling method that gets used depends on many engineering variables.


----------



## bbb34 (Jul 28, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Now you are the one being smug. I have opened a number of laptops that that had aluminum heat pipes. Compatibility is not an absolute, but rather a matter of lifetime. If the product lifetime is estimated to be less than the lifetime of the heat pipe, then alternate materials are sometimes used. Heat pipes are generally lighter than conduction cooling and often heavier than fans. The cooling method that gets used depends on many engineering variables.



When you compare cooling solutions, you have to consider the complete system. For air cooling you have to include heat sinks.

I never wrote that Al pipes are not in use, did I? What was the working fluid in the aluminium heat pipes you found in your laptops?


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## Dragon (Jul 29, 2020)

bbb34 said:


> When you compare cooling solutions, you have to consider the complete system. For air cooling you have to include heat sinks.
> 
> I never wrote that Al pipes are not in use, did I? What was the working fluid in the aluminium heat pipes you found in your laptops?


I didn't take the laptop heat pipe apart an analyze the working fluid, but given that a laptop has a high risk of being left an an environment that could go below freezing, it may well have been something other than water. Water has the advantage of supporting a very high heat flux (watts per unit area), but the disadvantage that it doesn't support very low temperatures.


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## bbb34 (Jul 29, 2020)

Dragon said:


> I didn't take the laptop heat pipe apart an analyze the working fluid, but given that a laptop has a high risk of being left an an environment that could go below freezing, it may well have been something other than water. Water has the advantage of supporting a very high heat flux (watts per unit area), but the disadvantage that it doesn't support very low temperatures.



How can you talk about material compatibility, if you don't know the materials involved?


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## bbasiaga (Jul 29, 2020)

12Broncos said:


> Unbelievable! If you had to make the camera a little bigger for cooling purposes, then do it. To me the size of the camera doesn't matter, what matters is I will be able to use it for more than fifteen minutes, then have to set it aside for forty minutes for it to cool down.



People would then complain about lack of good weather sealing, making it useless for everything (apparently). 

I always find it amusing that 'its so obvious they should have done XXX instead' is such a common statement. if it was that easy and obvious, all the posters who say that would be in the camera design business. 

Here we have a camera that is about two thirds to half as expensive as the next 8k camera (Based on some numbers posted earlier in this thread) but comes with some record time limitations as a trade off. It has a feature set that has never been seen before in a stills camera, but is somehow DOA already because it has limits on things nothing that came before it could do. Step back and get some perspective guys....its getting ridiculous in here. 

-Brian


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## Dragon (Jul 29, 2020)

bbb34 said:


> How can you talk about material compatibility, if you don't know the materials involved?


Engineering data on materials is available as you so deftly pointed out.


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## AlanF (Jul 29, 2020)

I've teamed up with the finest British Engineers to produce the RR of coolers for the R series.


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## CraigC (Jul 31, 2020)

So can you turn the fan around? That would keep my glasses from fogging as I shoot with my mask on!! THAT I would pay for. Anyone actually shot 8K video or had a client ask for it??? Thought so.


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## justaCanonuser (Jul 31, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Maybe it would be smarter to design a tea/coffee heater that uses the sensor heat to work?  I wasn't surprised about the heat issues - same as with Sony's A9. The problem is indeed that IBIS allows only for quite weak links that can transport heat out of the sensor. But people want IBIS, so Canon had no choice as to come up with a critical technology. If I had to shoot extended video professionally with a stills camera, I'd really prefer to work with a 1D-X III because this classic camera design allows a much more effective cooling of the sensor. Unfortunately, today's silicon semiconductor technology is extremely ineffective, that's the fundamental problem the engineers have to struggle with. If the neurons in our brains would be based on silicon semiconductors, we would burn off Megawatts of energy when we think, not just a few Watts.


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## justaCanonuser (Jul 31, 2020)

AlanF said:


> I don't do video so this discussion about the camera cutting out doesn't really worry me. What would worry me is if the sensor gets warm and it increases the noise in the circuits, which would be noticeable at lower isos.,


Don't worry if you mostly shoot stills, that shouldn't heat up the sensor critically. The problem comes with longer 4/8k video takes, because then the huge numbers of image to be converted from the analogue photodiode signals to digital signals, pre-amplificated and read out gives the on-sensor processing really a massive go. Sony's original A9 had the same issues, Steve Huff e.g. changed to the 1D-X II after his Sony ruined him some video jobs. It's a problem that comes with IBIS. See my other comment a few minutes ago.


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## justaCanonuser (Jul 31, 2020)

Dragon said:


> I didn't take the laptop heat pipe apart an analyze the working fluid, but given that a laptop has a high risk of being left an an environment that could go below freezing, it may well have been something other than water. Water has the advantage of supporting a very high heat flux (watts per unit area), but the disadvantage that it doesn't support very low temperatures.


I guess the idea of connecting such a massive heat pipe to the sensor would ruin the whole Sheik Yerbouti business of IBIS?


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## Dragon (Aug 1, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> I guess the idea of connecting such a massive heat pipe to the sensor would ruin the whole Sheik Yerbouti business of IBIS?


Yes, IBIS and a conventional heat pipe are incompatible. If the sensor is the overheating issue (and some cautions in the manual re image quality when the camera is overheated suggest that it might be), then a flexible strip of graphene might be one of the only options to improve the situation.


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## justaCanonuser (Aug 1, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Yes, IBIS and a conventional heat pipe are incompatible. If the sensor is the overheating issue (and some cautions in the manual re image quality when the camera is overheated suggest that it might be), then a flexible strip of graphene might be one of the only options to improve the situation.


Graphene has a high heat conductivity (electron transport in this exotic material is quite special) but given it has the thickness of only one atom layer I doubt it would be sufficient to transport the huge amount of heat that is required


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## Dragon (Aug 1, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Graphene has a high heat conductivity (electron transport in this exotic material is quite special) but given it has the thickness of only one atom layer I doubt it would be sufficient to transport the huge amount of heat that is required


The layers can be stacked.


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## SecureGSM (Aug 1, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Yes, IBIS and a conventional heat pipe are incompatible. If the sensor is the overheating issue (and some cautions in the manual re image quality when the camera is overheated suggest that it might be), then a flexible strip of graphene might be one of the only options to improve the situation.


yup, superconductors to the rescue.. I hate to see the price ticket though


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## Dragon (Aug 1, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> yup, superconductors to the rescue.. I hate to see the price ticket though


Another option would be to really seal the camera and fill it with helium. That would improve the internal convection cooling by a factor of 6. Also it would be for sure weatherproof since helium is very sneaky about finding places to leak from.


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## justaCanonuser (Aug 4, 2020)

Dragon said:


> The layers can be stacked.


Good job for lifelong prisoners


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 5, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The problem here is the plastic on the outside of the camera. Plastic for the most part is an insulator, so a Peltier cooler is not going to draw heat through the plastic.


The space on my EOS R under the LCD appears to be metal, not plastic. I don't know about the heat path, but it looks like it at least had a metal surface to cool. I wonder if we will see cheap stick on heat sinks that provide a few more minutes?


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## Chris.Chapterten (Aug 5, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The space on my EOS R under the LCD appears to be metal, not plastic. I don't know about the heat path, but it looks like it at least had a metal surface to cool. I wonder if we will see cheap stick on heat sinks that provide a few more minutes?


I'm not sure if a heatsink will do much at all. According to some tests I've seen, the camera body isn't getting very warm when it overheats. The heat isn't making it to the surface much at all.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 5, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> I'm not sure if a heatsink will do much at all. According to some tests I've seen, the camera body isn't getting very warm when it overheats. The heat isn't making it to the surface much at all.


Since the tests show ambient temp does have a effect, cooling will help. Just how much is the question. In my case, its a non issue, I'm just keeping up with the news. I'm also a engineer who has worked with lots of similar gadgets. A cooling module will use lots of power, so its not going to be portable without a very large battery or very long cord.


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## Chris.Chapterten (Aug 5, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Since the tests show ambient temp does have a effect, cooling will help. Just how much is the question. In my case, its a non issue, I'm just keeping up with the news. I'm also a engineer who has worked with lots of similar gadgets. A cooling module will use lots of power, so its not going to be portable without a very large battery or very long cord.


Strange, in a few of the tests I've seen the reviewer says that ambient temps made little to no difference to record times. Dan Watson and Gerald Undone make a point of this. At the start of this video Gerald makes a point of ambient temps having basically no effect:


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## SecureGSM (Aug 5, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Since the tests show ambient temp does have a effect, cooling will help. Just how much is the question. In my case, its a non issue, I'm just keeping up with the news. I'm also a engineer who has worked with lots of similar gadgets. A cooling module will use lots of power, so its not going to be portable without a very large battery or very long cord.


the other consideration: would you be brave enough having your facial features in a such close proximity to a fast spinning fan on the back of the camera?
can you imaging what may happen if long hairs will get in the spinning fan? oh boy..


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 5, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> the other consideration: would you be brave enough having your facial features in a such close proximity to a fast spinning fan on the back of the camera?
> can you imaging what may happen if long hairs will get in the spinning fan? oh boy..


I presume its not likely. A fan that is covered my a filter or inside a protective housing. I think it is likely of very limited use but that does not always stop gadgets from selling. If the solution was easy, we would not see overheating, its one of the tradeoffs and was likely reviewed by professional video makers to see what they thought. They don't rely one a single camera or even two, so they see it differently from those hoping for a $100K cinema camera for $4K.


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## gtsviper (Aug 21, 2021)

It's available for order. Just ordered mine. Something is better than nothing until R5c is available.









Tiltaing Cooling System - Black


Arm your camera with the Tiltaing Cooling System designed specifically for the Canon R5/R6. This Cooling System allows you to shoot longer with higher resolutions and faster frame rates without…




tilta.com


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## Jonathan Thill (Aug 21, 2021)

gtsviper said:


> It's available for order. Just ordered mine. Something is better than nothing until R5c is available.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please keep us informed how it works!


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## Bdbtoys (Aug 21, 2021)

At this point, the Ninja V+ is probably the better alternative.


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## Jonathan Thill (Aug 21, 2021)

Bdbtoys said:


> At this point, the Ninja V+ is probably the better alternative.


$2k CDN has me not 100% sold but I am tempted. 

Tempting -


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## wanderer23 (Sep 3, 2021)

Can't wait for the r5c.


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