# Canon will release an RF mount ‘vlogging’ camera in 2022 [CR3]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 30, 2022)

> Yesterday, Nikon announced the Nikon Z30 Z-mount camera targeting vloggers and people that want a small camera body.
> Canon will be releasing a similar camera sometime this year. It could be the rumored EOS R100, but we have long said that Canon would release an RF-mount APS-C camera with a similar form factor as the EOS M6 Mark II, which is a logical next step for Canon.
> It’s possible that we’ll see this camera announced alongside the upcoming Canon RF 24mm f/1.8 IS STM Macro & Canon RF 15-30mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM, both of which will likely have compact designs.
> More to come…
> Note: The image for this post is the Canon EOS M6 Mark II



Continue reading...


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## Chaitanya (Jun 30, 2022)

So basically a replacement for M6 series with optional(hopefully) EVF carried over from M6.


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## Andy Westwood (Jun 30, 2022)

An updated M200 or M6 is overdue, it looks like Canon is moving the M series cameras into the updated RF-S mount, not a bad idea.

I’m temped with an R7 and I would be interested in a smaller boded R range, camera such as the rumoured “R100” a family holiday play thing that I can carry around without even noticing it is with me.

My only gripe is the new kit lens why 18-45 and not like the M-Series 15-45. OK, I know neither are not anything special, far from it, but 18mm on a crop sensor camera is not wide enough for a general kit lens. For the masses who will buy these, that might matter.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 30, 2022)

Andy Westwood said:


> An updated M200 or M6 is overdue, it looks like Canon is moving the M series cameras into the updated RF-S mount, not a bad idea.


Part of what made the m50, and m100 ideal vlogging cameras was them being small cameras with small lenses.
The RF mount limits how small those cameras and lenese can be


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## koenkooi (Jun 30, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Part of what made the m50, and m100 ideal vlogging cameras was them being small cameras with small lenses.
> The RF mount limits how small those cameras and lenese can be


The Nikon Z30 seems to squeeze out every bit of smallness while using the 'big' Z mount. I'm impressed by how good it actually looks.


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## lote82 (Jun 30, 2022)

RF? But there is already a very well suited (and very lively ) M system ... very strange!


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## Bob Howland (Jun 30, 2022)

lote82 said:


> RF? But there is already a very well suited (and very lively ) M system ... very strange!


They could use this camera as the basis for an M6-2 replacement using an M lens mount and slightly different firmware. (Is that wishful thinking?)


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## bbasiaga (Jun 30, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> They could use this camera as the basis for an M6-2 replacement using an M lens mount and slightly different firmware. (Is that wishful thinking?)


Unfortunately, yes, I think it is wishful thinking. Its possible we could finally see the official end of the M series with the release of this camera. M6II was just recently discontinued. M50II may be the last of the breed. 

-Brian


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## entoman (Jun 30, 2022)

The appearance of the Z30 was guaranteed to produce this wee click-bait rumour!

A compact "R100" without an EVF has always been on the cards, as a means of producing a very cheap entry into the RF system, and given the popularity of vlogging, is guaranteed to be video-orientated. So not a difficult prophecy!


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## bbasiaga (Jun 30, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> Unfortunately, yes, I think it is wishful thinking. Its possible we could finally see the official end of the M series with the release of this camera. M6II was just recently discontinued. M50II may be the last of the breed.
> 
> -Brian


Saw this link on another forum - the roller coaster continues!









No, it's not dead! "The EOS M line DOES have a place in our range" says Canon


The Canon EOS R7 and R10 have NOT killed the EOS M cameras, but rather "sit alongside as part of the EOS family"




www.digitalcameraworld.com


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## Bob Howland (Jun 30, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> Saw this link on another forum - the roller coaster continues!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And maybe Canon doesn't want to kill the residual presumably highly profitable market for M cameras by convincing potential buyers that buying one of them is a dead end.


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## John Wilde (Jun 30, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> Saw this link on another forum - the roller coaster continues!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Inaction speaks louder than words. The M50 was announced way back in 2018, and the 2020 M50 Mark II was just a minor tweak. "The 4K/24p video is heavily cropped and you can't use the camera's dual-pixel autofocus (it's contrast-detection only)." -DPReview


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## jwpatmore (Jun 30, 2022)

Any idea when the RF 24m f/1.8 IS STM Macro Lens will be released???


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 30, 2022)

John Wilde said:


> Inaction speaks louder than words. The M50 was announced way back in 2018, and the 2020 M50 Mark II was just a tiny tweak, with poor 4K.


And both cameras have consistently been among the top 10 best-selling cameras in Japan since their launch, and usually one or both have been among the top three. Canon is smart enough to know that if it ain't broke, you don't fix it. Canon is also smart enough not to let forum members make their product decisions for them. Imagine that...


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## Bob Howland (Jun 30, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> And both cameras have consistently been among the top 10 best-selling cameras in Japan since their launch, and usually one or both have been among the top three. Canon is smart enough to know that if it ain't broke, you don't fix it. Canon is also smart enough not to let forum members make their product decisions for them. Imagine that...


"Cash Cow"


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## Felix (Jun 30, 2022)

I would like something cheap without EVF for 600€/$ as a small second body


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## lustyd (Jun 30, 2022)

Let's hope it still has a fold up display like the M6ii. Fully articulating is trendy and all, but it's utterly hopeless for vlogging purposes and makes eyes look creepy as people look to the right.


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## flaviojzk (Jun 30, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Part of what made the m50, and m100 ideal vlogging cameras was them being small cameras with small lenses.
> The RF mount limits how small those cameras and lenese can be





Bob Howland said:


> They could use this camera as the basis for an M6-2 replacement using an M lens mount and slightly different firmware. (Is that wishful thinking?)


Yes (unfortunately)


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## josephandrews222 (Jun 30, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> Saw this link on another forum - the roller coaster continues!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


...thanks for this link.

Note the mention of the 200 and M5 series but not the M6 series...sort of makes sense to me--the M6 MkII really is sort of a 'baby' R7 with 2-3 year old technology inside. So my guess has been (and written here) is no more M6 bodies from Canon...but perhaps the smaller Ms will move forward.

Think about it for a minute--the refurbished M200 + 15-45 EF-M lens combination (and a backpack thrown in for good measure)...is $350 at Canon...right now. That's quite the deal, especially when compared to some 'point-and-shoot' Canons that were ubiquitous not all that long ago (pre cellphone).

=====

It makes no sense for Canon to abandon the tiny APS-C body market to its competitors.

I own the EF-M 18-150 IS lens (in fact, purchased one for a family member, too)...while a fine lens it is somewhat limited in terms of image quality. But when I use an M camera, I'm prepared to make compromises...size-and-weight compromises.

Some measure of the quandary Canon faces is that the kit lens for the R7 has the innards of the EF-M 18-150 with an R mount! That makes no sense...the R7, I think, deserves the best glass the R mount can offer, right!?

=====

There are two EF-M lenses that really really shine, in terms of these kinds of compromises: the 22mm and the 11-22mm IS lenses.

Both of these lenses work nicely on the 'large' M6 MkII...but they also excel on the smaller Ms.

I look forward to evaluating the RS 15-30 lens when it is mounted on the smallest R body.


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## flaviojzk (Jun 30, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> Unfortunately, yes, I think it is wishful thinking. Its possible we could finally see the official end of the M series with the release of this camera. M6II was just recently discontinued. M50II may be the last of the breed.
> 
> -Brian


Agree


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 30, 2022)

josephandrews222 said:


> I own the EF-M 18-150 IS lens (in fact, purchased one for a family member, too)...while a fine lens it is somewhat limited in terms of image quality. But when I use an M camera, I'm prepared to make compromises...size-and-weight compromises.
> 
> Some measure of the quandary Canon faces is that the kit lens for the R7 has the innards of the EF-M 18-150 with an R mount! That makes no sense...the R7, I think, deserves the best glass the R mount can offer, right!?


The R7 is more like an xxD body. Not really aimed at the L-series lens owners, IMO. 

The EF-M 18-150mm seems to have substantial copy variation. The copy that Bryan/TDP first tested for his ISO 12233-type charts was rather poor, significantly worse than the EF-M 55-200mm, for example. When I was drafting the review of the M18-150 for TDP, I found my copy to be quite good, on par with the M55-200. Bryan ordered another copy, and it was much better (the second copy is the one now in the charts). 



josephandrews222 said:


> There are two EF-M lenses that really really shine, in terms of these kinds of compromises: the 22mm and the 11-22mm IS lenses.


I'd add the EF-M 32/1.4 to that list. It delivers IQ similar to many L-series lenses.


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## JohanCruyff (Jun 30, 2022)

So the expected "Full Frame Sub 800$ Viewfinder-free R camera" could be an APS-C?








Canon aiming for a $799 full-frame camera? [CR2]


A pretty solid source with a decent track record has told me that Canon is aiming to release a full-frame RF mount camera for under $800 USD in 2022. The Canon



www.canonrumors.com


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## mccasi (Jun 30, 2022)

Imagine... Canon could be the first one who actually makes a mid range vlogging cam. 

12MP 4k, IBIS, good codecs, good autofocus, flip screen, tally light, digital audio in via hotshoe

...basically A7S3 but 3 years later and half the price and without the stupid ultra high end EVF.


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## Bob Howland (Jun 30, 2022)

JohanCruyff said:


> So the expected "Full Frame Sub 800$ Wiewfinder-free R camera" could be an APS-C?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And if it's going to be APS-C, why not M?


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 30, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> And if it's going to be APS-C, why not M?


Because there are already sub-$800 non full frame M cameras, so we don't need a rumor about one being the holy grail?


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## Skyscraperfan (Jun 30, 2022)

The Z30 is quite underwhelming. It is basically a crippled Z50 or Z fc. They used the same sensor for the third time, but this time they even got rid of the EVF, which makes it quite unusable for stills.


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## John Wilde (Jun 30, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> And both cameras have consistently been among the top 10 best-selling cameras in Japan since their launch, and usually one or both have been among the top three. Canon is smart enough to know that if it ain't broke, you don't fix it. Canon is also smart enough not to let forum members make their product decisions for them. Imagine that...


To Canon, M is "The system that dare not speak its name".  In the Canon USA press release "Canon EOS System celebrates 35th anniversary" there wasn't a single word about the existence of M. In Canon's financial documents, M is never mentioned. Nobody, other than Canon, knows what M50 worldwide sales are, and they aren't saying. It's clear that Canon Imaging cares about three things - EOS R, EOS R, and EOS R.
​


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## xelaq (Jun 30, 2022)

lote82 said:


> RF? But there is already a very well suited (and very lively ) M system ... very strange!



Here we go again...


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## John Wilde (Jun 30, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> The Z30 is quite underwhelming. It is basically a crippled Z50 or Z fc. They used the same sensor for the third time, but this time they even got rid of the EVF, which makes it quite unusable for stills.


Z30 is Nikon's version of the Sony ZV-E10. But yes, it's pretty much Variation 3 of the Z50.
​


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## unfocused (Jun 30, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> And both cameras have consistently been among the top 10 best-selling cameras in Japan since their launch, and usually one or both have been among the top three. Canon is smart enough to know that if it ain't broke, you don't fix it. Canon is also smart enough not to let forum members make their product decisions for them. Imagine that...


While I generally agree, I'm not sure if Canon does. 

I think it may be getting to the point where, just as with the R7, you will have to reconsider your position. (And, yes, the R7 may not be a *direct* replacement for the 7D, but it is certainly a replacement.) 

For video bloggers I'm not sure the smaller size of the M series would have any benefit over this body. Also we haven't yet seen how small Canon can make a crop-sensor R, although the lens mount will be a limiting factor. 

I suppose it is possible that Canon could retain the M series as the "tiny, portable" system for travel and the R system for everything else, but siphoning off the video market would certainly cut into M sales and make sustaining the system less viable. 

Only Canon knows if size alone is a deciding factor for purchasing interchangeable lens bodies. However, when I look at how the iPhones and iPads have been supersized in recent years, I wonder just how much of a factor small size is. 

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it," sounds good, but in reality companies break their products all the time.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 30, 2022)

John Wilde said:


> To Canon, M is "The system that dare not speak its name".  In the Canon USA press release "Canon EOS System celebrates 35th anniversary" there wasn't a single word about the existence of M. In Canon's financial documents, M is never mentioned. Nobody, other than Canon, knows what M50 worldwide sales are, and they aren't saying. It's clear that Canon Imaging cares about three things - EOS R, EOS R, and EOS R.


Canon execs stated that the EOS M line accounts for 30% of their camera sales worldwide. In the same interview, they stated that DSLRs comprise 40% of their camera sales, and the EOS R line comprises 20%. They did not say, but from those numbers is it obvious they are talking about unit sales, not revenue. 

Of course, when two lines are mature and one is new, the new one gets the bulk of development resources.


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## mxwphoto (Jun 30, 2022)

So basically R10 without EVF and knocked down a couple hundred bucks in a smaller form factor. Unfortunately it probably won't have IBIS at that price point which imo is much more important to vlogging.

Given that a lot of targeted user base already own M cameras or others with similiar capabilities, this camera would not be much of an upgrade. I would much rather see Canon remove EVF but add in IBIS and keep price around the same as R10 as that would provide much more incentive for vloggers to upgrade into the RF ecosystem.

Also Canon should build a mic with a tally light built in for those that want to vlog with R7 or R10.


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## Pierre Lagarde (Jun 30, 2022)

Actually, the Z30 is 74mm high vs 70mm for M6 MarkII (which is the "biggest" EVF-less EOS M to date in that regard).
On specs sheet, The Z30 is overall significantly bigger than the EOS M6 MarkII, though, it's said to be slightly lighter (405g vs 408g), which is good thing of course.

With RF mount, Canon could reasonably shrink their camera's height at a minimum of 72mm, at best (they need to leave room for the hot shoe, at least).
Reading from here and there, replacing the M6 line-up with RF looks possible. But, IMO, they would have to keep EOS-M if they still intend to sell smaller ILCs than M6 MarkII.


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## Bob Howland (Jun 30, 2022)

Pierre Lagarde said:


> Actually, the Z30 is 74mm high vs 70mm for M6 MarkII (which is the "biggest" EVF-less EOS M to date in that regard).
> On specs sheet, The Z30 is overall significantly bigger than the EOS M6 MarkII, though, it's said to be slightly lighter (405g vs 408g), which is good thing of course.
> 
> With RF mount, Canon could reasonably shrink their camera's height at a minimum of 72mm, at best (they need to leave room for the hot shoe, at least).
> Reading from here and there, replacing the M6 line-up with RF looks possible. But, IMO, they would have to keep EOS-M if they still intend to sell smaller ILCs than M6 MarkII.


Not being a vlogger, I have to ask the question: Is there a real benefit in vlogging for having the smallest camera (and lenses) possible?


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## hachu21 (Jun 30, 2022)

josephandrews222 said:


> ...thanks for this link.
> 
> Note the mention of the 200 and M5 series but not the M6 series...sort of makes sense to me--the M6 MkII really is sort of a 'baby' R7 with 2-3 year old technology inside. So my guess has been (and written here) is no more M6 bodies from Canon...but perhaps the smaller Ms will move forward.
> 
> ...


You forgot the 32/1.4 wich is the best M lens.


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## hachu21 (Jun 30, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> Not being a vlogger, I have to ask the question: Is there a real benefit in vlogging for having the smallest camera (and lenses) possible?


Yes : to put them on a small gimbal and get nicely stabilized footage, while keeping the whole setup light and compact.


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## Pierre Lagarde (Jun 30, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> Not being a vlogger, I have to ask the question: Is there a real benefit in vlogging for having the smallest camera (and lenses) possible?


Having a small camera can be a benefit in many different use cases, to my sense. As long as you can couple the camera with useful accessories/lenses and have the right features for your own needs, I can't see any disadvantage. And even if you got big hands, light weight still can be wished for travel, for instance.


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## josephandrews222 (Jun 30, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> The Z30 is quite underwhelming. It is basically a crippled Z50 or Z fc. They used the same sensor for the third time, but this time they even got rid of the EVF, which makes it quite unusable for stills.



"but this time they even got rid of the EVF, which makes it quite unusable for stills"

=====

As Sly and the Family Stone sang:

"Different strokes for different folks...and so on and so on and scooby dooby dooby."

=====

IMHO, there are certainly many specific cases where a viewfinder is essential in/to the process of image acquisition.

But there are other cases where a viewfinder of any kind is NOT essential...and there are literally *tens of thousands* of stills in my library proving that very point.

No snark intended...it is just that sometimes I think this sort of thinking ******* the M from the start.

Change is hard.

Hell change is hard for me! I want new M's!

=====

EDIT: ******* = do-om-ed (remove the hyphens)


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 30, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> ...but this time they even got rid of the EVF, which makes it quite unusable for stills.





josephandrews222 said:


> But there are other cases where a viewfinder of any kind is NOT essential...and there are literally *tens of thousands* of stills in my library proving that very point.


No, no, no. A viewfinder is needed to take still images. At least, good ones. I'm sure all of your shots with the M6 are crap. Just like mine.


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## Skyscraperfan (Jun 30, 2022)

How will you hold your camera still, if is not pressed onto your face? Just stabilized by your hands like a smartphone? Then you need at least some kind of gimbal or even a tripod. Otherwise you introduce a shake that could be avoided with a viewfinder. Unlike smartphones the Z30 does not even have IBIS. And if the sun is too bright, it is harder to nail the exposure just with a screen.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 30, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> How will you hold your camera still, if is not pressed onto your face?


With good technique. It's not hard. The waterfall shot above is a 1.0 s exposure (M18-150 @ 45mm), no tripod. Pretty sharp as you can see at 1:1, albeit with some softening from diffraction at f/18.


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## lustyd (Jun 30, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> Not being a vlogger, I have to ask the question: Is there a real benefit in vlogging for having the smallest camera (and lenses) possible?


Yes. Unlike photographers who are there to take a photo, vloggers are there do do whatever it is they are doing, getting footage is usually secondary so carrying 30kg of camera gear is undesirable since it impedes the ability to get on with doing things. Also, when recording, the camera is often held at arms length pointed back at the person, weight is a big issue here. Because of this technique, it's also useful to have a screen that folds up for framing purposes since it looks natural to glance 3" upwards but not 5" to the side.

It would also be nice if they removed the hotshoe from the top of the camera. Vloggers generally don't need a flash and certainly not on top of the camera. It would be more useful to have some M5 threads to mount things to with accessories such as hot/cold shoes to match. I suspect many M6ii users would accept a slightly larger body if it didn't need a Smallrig cage.


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## lote82 (Jun 30, 2022)

xelaq said:


> Here we go again...


Sorry, I was bored for a moment!


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## Skux (Jul 1, 2022)

If Nikon can do it with Z mount, Canon can do it with RF mount.

But they will need the lenses to back it up though. The RF-S 18-45mm is far too narrow for arms-length vlogging.


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## SnowMiku (Jul 1, 2022)

I like using the EVF for video on the M5, but I can understand if they decide to make it an add on if the target market doesn't want it.


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## lustyd (Jul 1, 2022)

Not sure how you'd use an EVF on a camera for video and produce anything usable unless your camera is fixed to something?


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## SnowMiku (Jul 1, 2022)

lustyd said:


> Not sure how you'd use an EVF on a camera for video and produce anything usable unless your camera is fixed to something?


It's just for quick handheld video, nothing professional.


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## lustyd (Jul 1, 2022)

Ah fair enough, was wondering if there was some special technique I was unaware of


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## tapanit (Jul 1, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> How will you hold your camera still, if is not pressed onto your face? Just stabilized by your hands like a smartphone? Then you need at least some kind of gimbal or even a tripod. Otherwise you introduce a shake that could be avoided with a viewfinder. Unlike smartphones the Z30 does not even have IBIS. And if the sun is too bright, it is harder to nail the exposure just with a screen


There are more than a few photographers who use a tripod all the time, for every picture they take. Including some who only take pictures at night and never use a viewfinder. Different strokes for different folks.

And as others have already mentioned, with good technique it's perfectly possible to take handheld photos with the screen, too, at least with short focal lengths.


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## lote82 (Jul 1, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> How will you hold your camera still, if is not pressed onto your face? Just stabilized by your hands like a smartphone? Then you need at least some kind of gimbal or even a tripod. Otherwise you introduce a shake that could be avoided with a viewfinder. Unlike smartphones the Z30 does not even have IBIS. And if the sun is too bright, it is harder to nail the exposure just with a screen.


Yes, because of the reasons you named I personally would never buy a camera without an viewfinder.
But I understand that there is also a market for cameras like this. Giving such an option to the RF-system would make sense.


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## lustyd (Jul 1, 2022)

Probably worth mentioning that I don't have an issue buying a camera with an EVF per se, I have an issue with the compromises that drives. Usually they make the camera bigger for no useful reason to people who won't use them. They also take up prime real estate on the camera which could be used for useful ports, a better internal mic, or an LED light array. Same issue with internal flash, which is utterly useless to a vlogger, where an LED light might be useful, or again more ports or smaller camera.
For me, at least, cost isn't a driver here.


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## Pierre Lagarde (Jul 1, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> With good technique. It's not hard. The waterfall shot above is a 1.0 s exposure (M18-150 @ 45mm), no tripod. Pretty sharp as you can see at 1:1, albeit with some softening from diffraction at f/18.


Indeed... that plus the fact that holding the camera in various positions gives you more versatility in shooting. 
You can be more discrete, more reactive and handle angles that aren't allowed when you're forced to put your eyes in a viewfinder and then, bring the rest of your head to the place (which can be impossible in many cases, especially when your surrounded by a crowd)  ...
Stabilisation in gears can be also a good help of course in that kind of situation...
Two samples with M6 at arm's length


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## lote82 (Jul 1, 2022)

These viewfinder (vs. no viewfinder) discussions are nearly as refreshing as the RF (vs. M) system discussions!

To be precise:
I personally would never buy an camera without viewfinder. 
But I personally would also never buy a camera without screen.

For me(!) and maybe most(?) people both is best. Which one is better is only dependable on the situation/motiv.

But yes ... these discussions proof that there is a market for cameras without viewfinder.


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## Skyscraperfan (Jul 1, 2022)

Of course you could always use a tripod, but then you lose the advantage of having a small and light camera. The whole idea of those small cameras is that they are portable.


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## lustyd (Jul 1, 2022)

lote82 said:


> maybe most(?) people both is best


No, both is a compromise of everything. There is plenty of space in the range to include purpose specific models, and indeed that's where the most value lies. Fitting everything is what Homer did when designing a car in the Simpsons, and indicates lack of purpose and design direction. What we need is a great photo camera, a great vlogging camera and a great all rounder for people who aren't sure (which will be a compromise). What we have is various all rounders at various price points which have been artificially crippled in some way because it's all Canon knows how to do. If they designed for a purpose they wouldn't need to artificially differentiate because the devices would in fact be different.


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## lote82 (Jul 1, 2022)

lustyd said:


> No, both is a compromise of everything.


Yes, like every camera is a compromise.


lustyd said:


> What we need is a great photo camera, a great vlogging camera and a great all rounder for people who aren't sure (which will be a compromise).


What "we" need? Who is "we"?
I think you are only talking about what you need ... which is ok, but please just say it.
I think "we" (as canon users) already have great photo cameras, great vlogging cameras and a great all rounders.
Maybe a vlogging camera for the RF system is missing. But I think there are even vloggers who prefer having an viewfinder. If you don't want/need a viewfinder doesn't mean everybody else has the same needs.


lustyd said:


> What we have is various all rounders at various price points which have been artificially crippled in some way because it's all Canon knows how to do. If they designed for a purpose they wouldn't need to artificially differentiate because the devices would in fact be different.


So ... the R3 for ex. is an "all rounder"? Are we really discussing about this?
You are expecting the perfect camera fitting your specific needs.
You won't get this. Not from Canon nor from any other manufacturer.
Even a highly specialized cameras like the R3 has to fit different style of users and even different style of shooting scenarios (for ex. Wildlife AND Sports; Photos AND Videos). Maybe you can ask Leica if they build a camera specifically for your needs. Please tell me about the expected price, I'm very courious!


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## gregedwards69 (Jul 1, 2022)

lustyd said:


> Yes. Unlike photographers who are there to take a photo, vloggers are there do do whatever it is they are doing, getting footage is usually secondary so carrying 30kg of camera gear is undesirable since it impedes the ability to get on with doing things. Also, when recording, the camera is often held at arms length pointed back at the person, weight is a big issue here. Because of this technique, it's also useful to have a screen that folds up for framing purposes since it looks natural to glance 3" upwards but not 5" to the side.
> 
> It would also be nice if they removed the hotshoe from the top of the camera. Vloggers generally don't need a flash and certainly not on top of the camera. It would be more useful to have some M5 threads to mount things to with accessories such as hot/cold shoes to match. I suspect many M6ii users would accept a slightly larger body if it didn't need a Smallrig cage.


true. I'm not vlogger, but I have taken a number of selfies with my camera. The Canon G12 at a variangle floppy screen that flipped out to the side. I constantly had to remind myself (and the wife) to look at the lens, not the screen as the results looked weird. The M3 screen flipped upwards and cured this issue - perfect selfie framing, but I had to remove anything attached to the hotshoe such as the EVF or speedlite. My M5's screen flips down because the design of built-in EVF prevents it from flipping up. Framing looks okay, but it also prevents you from using the tripod mount, such as a steady cam for a vlogger.

I can certainly see the market for a hotshoe-less vlogger camera with a flip up screen. As it's clear to me there's not perfect solution for everyone.


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## lustyd (Jul 1, 2022)

lote82 said:


> I think "we" (as canon users) already have great photo cameras, great vlogging cameras and a great all rounders.


If Canon sell a great vlogging camera I can't imagine which one that would be. Not a single one of them has a good microphone setup, for instance. All of them have flashes as far as I can see (with none having a light), and all but one have EVFs which make them larger and heavier than needed. Very few have fold up screens, and most of them cut the video at 30 minutes.

Please, which is the great vlogging camera?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 1, 2022)

lustyd said:


> If Canon sell a great vlogging camera I can't imagine which one that would be. Not a single one of them has a good microphone setup, for instance. All of them have flashes as far as I can see (with none having a light), and all but one have EVFs which make them larger and heavier than needed. Very few have fold up screens, and most of them cut the video at 30 minutes.
> 
> Please, which is the great vlogging camera?


Any camera that shoots video is a vlogging camera. At least, as far as those with no real vlogging experience are concerned. 

FWIW, I am one of those with no vlogging experience, but at least I know and acknowledge what I don't know, and defer to those with actual experience in those areas rather than speaking for them. Sort of like how some claim it's impossible to take a good still photo without a viewfinder, but have never actually used an ILC without a viewfinder.


----------



## lnz (Jul 1, 2022)

I can't wait to put a 28-70 inside that nice little thing


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## melgross (Jul 1, 2022)

lote82 said:


> RF? But there is already a very well suited (and very lively ) M system ... very strange!


Everyone’s been telling Canon to discontinue the M series in favor of RF APS-C. I quest a few mms in size and three or four ounces in weight won’t make much of a difference to most buyers. But they do have to have a fuller small lens complement.

I understand why they can’t adapt actual M series lenses to RF, but there’s no reason why these designs can’t be in a new lens body that would have an RF mount. That would temporarily up the lens line for this at lower cost while newer lenses come out over time.


----------



## lote82 (Jul 1, 2022)

lustyd said:


> If Canon sell a great vlogging camera I can't imagine which one that would be. Not a single one of them has a good microphone setup, for instance. All of them have flashes as far as I can see (with none having a light), and all but one have EVFs which make them larger and heavier than needed. Very few have fold up screens, and most of them cut the video at 30 minutes.
> 
> Please, which is the great vlogging camera?


I'm not an vlogger but I 've heard those Canon cameras are quite suitable for vlogging:

G5X MARK II
M6 II
M 200

Even three options without viewfinder! And at least one of it even has a fold up screen.

Which hybrid camera in the world has no flash but light?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 1, 2022)

melgross said:


> I understand why they can’t adapt actual M series lenses to RF, but there’s no reason why these designs can’t be in a new lens body that would have an RF mount.


ICYMI, that's exactly what they did with the RF-S 18-150mm. Here's the EF-M 18-150 block diagram tinted magenta and dropped onto the RF-S 18-150 block diagram. Same glass in a different barrel with a different mount.




They could not do that with the EF-M 15-45mm, because while the 15mm wide end doesn't need to be retrofocal with the 18mm flange distance of the EF-M, it would need to be retrofocal with the 20mm flange distance of the RF mount (meaning the lens would need to be larger, heavier, more complex, and more expensive). Thus, they designed the RF-S 18-45mm lens instead.

They certainly can do what they did with the 18-150mm to the 11-22, 55-200, and the three EF-M primes.


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## stevelee (Jul 1, 2022)

lote82 said:


> I'm not an vlogger but I 've heard those Canon cameras are quite suitable for vlogging:
> 
> G5X MARK II
> M6 II
> ...


Weren't features in the G7X Mark III intended for vloggers? Since I didn't need those features, and I liked some of the improvements in the G5X II, I bought it instead to replace my G7X II.


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## John Wilde (Jul 1, 2022)

With both the Sony ZV-E10 and Nikon Z30 on the market, it's inevitable that Canon will "join the party". Canon introduced a no-viewfinder ILC in 2017 (M100) so they are familiar with that form factor.  
​


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## koenkooi (Jul 2, 2022)

John Wilde said:


> With both the Sony ZV-E10 and Nikon Z30 on the market, it's inevitable that Canon will "join the party". Canon introduced a no-viewfinder ILC in 2017 (M100) so they are familiar with that form factor.
> ​


And the original M in 2012


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## LogicExtremist (Jul 2, 2022)

lustyd said:


> If Canon sell a great vlogging camera I can't imagine which one that would be. Not a single one of them has a good microphone setup, for instance. All of them have flashes as far as I can see (with none having a light), and all but one have EVFs which make them larger and heavier than needed. Very few have fold up screens, and most of them cut the video at 30 minutes.
> 
> Please, which is the great vlogging camera?


The Canon camera that is really popular with many vloggers/youtubers is the M50 with a EF-M 11-22mm f/4-f/5.6. Prior to that the G7XIII was really popular.
The Sony ZV-1 (24-70 equiv. f/1.8-2.8, 20.1MP stacked back illuminated 1" CMOS sensor, 4K 30 with full pixel readout and no pixel binning, 24fps continuous stills shooting with AF/AE tracking, human/animal eye AF) does much better video, and is more probably the preferred option these days if stills photography isn't a priority.


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## Bob Howland (Jul 2, 2022)

LogicExtremist said:


> The Canon camera that is really popular with many vloggers/youtubers is the M50 with a EF-M 11-22mm f/4-f/5.6. Prior to that the G7XIII was really popular.
> The Sony ZV-1 (24-70 equiv. f/1.8-2.8, 20.1MP stacked back illuminated 1" CMOS sensor, 4K 30 with full pixel readout and no pixel binning, 24fps continuous stills shooting with AF/AE tracking, human/animal eye AF) does much better video, and is more probably the preferred option these days if stills photography isn't a priority.


Is it the G7x-3 that is/was popular for vlogging or the G7x and G7x-2? I own the G7x and it would be my first choice for vlogging. But I've read some really nasty comments about the G7x-3 focusing.


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## LogicExtremist (Jul 2, 2022)

The G7x series were all popular with vloggers, and Canon tried to add more features that would be of interest to vloggers with each new version. The G7xII had a 20MP BSI CMOS sensor, DIGIC7 image processor and could do 1080/60 video and constant shooting speed (stills) of 8 fps, which was upgraded in the G7xII to a stacked 20MP BSI CMOS sensor, DIGIC8 image processor and 4K/30 video and constant shooting speed (stills) of 20 fps. The newer model got fast charging and livestream capability, and 3.5mm mic input, but like you said, they messed up something with the AF. It had issues with autofocus when shooting video if people were moving, it would lose them. They released a firmware update with an additional mode but many said it improved the AF a bit but didn't really fix the problem.


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## illadvisedhammer (Jul 2, 2022)

Pierre Lagarde said:


> Indeed... that plus the fact that holding the camera in various positions gives you more versatility in shooting.
> You can be more discrete, more reactive and handle angles that aren't allowed when you're forced to put your eyes in a viewfinder and then, bring the rest of your head to the place (which can be impossible in many cases, especially when your surrounded by a crowd)  ...
> Stabilisation in gears can be also a good help of course in that kind of situation...
> Two samples with M6 at arm's length


I don't want to pile on the original poster because wanting a viewfinder is a totally valid preference. I've always the original/6 form factor, and seldom use the add-on viewfinder, despite sometimes not seeing well in high light. I also wonder if the lack of EFCS problem, which is real, is partly due to lower stability with no head bracing. I get better shots using electronic shutter at middle shutter speeds, and that's a pain sometimes and not available in all modes, but still worth it to me for a smaller camera, and especially greater freedom to hold the camera at diverse heights and angles. I had a favorite uncle whose fondest photographic memories were using a Rollei TLR, and sometimes I'll flip up the screen and take a day from belly button height, which of course you can do with a viewfinder camera, so it comes down to size. If canon made a refreshed M with IBIS but lighter or the same weight as the current M6ii I'd buy it. I'll totally get an R 7iii when my 90D has started to flake. I'm concerned that the M6 is at the high end for 'travel-everyday-non-disruptive' camera, and that the compact R cameras will go past my own threshold. I'd get a 200 if it had full control dials. If they make an R-mount camera as small and light as the M6 I'd, well, wait until my M died and they had ported the 32 and 11-22, so, probably in 5 years.


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## stevelee (Jul 2, 2022)

I’m not a vlogger so I don‘t know how relevant my experience might be. About September, 2019, I considered replacing my G7X II travel camera before a fall trip. At the store I looked at the M50, but decided to stick with something pocketable. The Sony option didn’t appeal to me because they had opted to make the lens much slower to make a longer zoom, just the opposite of what I wanted for my travel pictures. As I stated above, I didn’t need the new vlogging features of the new 7, so I got the G5X II.

Before the trip I took the camera with me to a college football game in the afternoon. I was in a hospitality area (free food and beer) behind one end zone. Even with the limited zoom, I got some surprisingly good video shooting to the other end of the field. Of course the touchdown I shot near to me was really clear.

On the trip, I shot over 3,000 stills, but no video. I was very pleased. I didn’t use the popup viewfinder often, but it was handy in really bright sunlight sometimes.

My main video project each year is to shoot some after-hours pick-up basketball during camp. It features returning college players, new players, pros who play in Europe but back in the states for the summer, and sometimes in the past some NBA players. I often have used it to learn how to use new cameras, but they had not had these games since I had this camera until this year.

My main mistake was in using autofocus. I’ve never had focus problems with this camera before, But several clips began with the camera fishing around for focus. There is enough depth of field with the little lens that I should have just focused manually on one of the baskets and known that everything else would be good, and leave it there. I was going to learn from my mistakes and do better the next night, but they didn’t play again. The zoom lever is not practical to use during shooting, so I leave it zoomed to around 40 or 50mm equivalent and shoot in 4K and then do my zooming in post. That worked fine.

The problem was with all that 4K shooting, the camera overheated. So I shot for a little while with my iPhone in 4K. I had to crop a little more on that footage, but had plenty of resolution still. So I concluded that the G5X II is not the ideal camera for that project, though I could do better with it knowing what I know now. My audience is interested in how the new guys play, how the returning guys have improved, and how the pros are coming along after college. They don’t care much about whether the beginnings of some shots are fuzzy. When the camera was new, I set it up on a tripod on my deck and tested the autofocus by shooting me as I moved back and forth à la Dr. Tongue, and it tracked my face really well. So I was surprised at the basketball focus issues. At vlogging distances, it did great.


----------



## jam05 (Jul 3, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> Unfortunately, yes, I think it is wishful thinking. Its possible we could finally see the official end of the M series with the release of this camera. M6II was just recently discontinued. M50II may be the last of the breed.
> 
> -Brian


m6Ii had not been discontinued globally. Only one or two small markets that dont sell a lot of cameras. Canon management has already debunked that rumor.


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## jam05 (Jul 3, 2022)

mccasi said:


> Imagine... Canon could be the first one who actually makes a mid range vlogging cam.
> 
> 12MP 4k, IBIS, good codecs, good autofocus, flip screen, tally light, digital audio in via hotshoe
> 
> ...basically A7S3 but 3 years later and half the price and without the stupid ultra high end EVF.


Midrange meaning costly.


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## jam05 (Jul 3, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> Not being a vlogger, I have to ask the question: Is there a real benefit in vlogging for having the smallest camera (and lenses) possible?


The dimensions are critical when swaping devices on a gimbal and not desiring to recalibrate on location and hopefully the eyepiece doesnt slam and hit the gimbal during pitch alignment.


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## masterpix (Jul 3, 2022)

lote82 said:


> RF? But there is already a very well suited (and very lively ) M system ... very strange!


One mount to meet them all, one mount to bind them, One mount to bring them all, and have only one mount production line by Canon. It is VERY reasonable


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 3, 2022)

masterpix said:


> One mount to meet them all, one mount to bind them, One mount to bring them all, and have only one mount production line by Canon. It is VERY reasonable


Just like Canon unified the format of their printer ink and toner cartridges.

Oh, wait…they have many different form factors for those. Why? Because they make printers for different uses and user segments. Just like cameras.

I believe we’ve previously discussed business acumen, and lack thereof. It might make sense for a tiny company with limited scope and manufacturing capabilities to make one product type for their little segment of the market. That description does not apply to Canon.


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## lote82 (Jul 3, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Just like Canon unified the format of their printer ink and toner cartridges.
> 
> Oh, wait…they have many different form factors for those. Why? Because they make printers for different uses and user segments. Just like cameras.
> 
> I believe we’ve previously discussed business acumen, and lack thereof. It might make sense for a tiny company with limited scope and manufacturing capabilities to make one product type for their little segment of the market. That description does not apply to Canon.


You have forgotten to mention how many Toyota M50s were sold the last month (in Japan). 

Yep, printer cartridges and camera lenses are nearly the same price segment... Excellent comparison, genius!


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 3, 2022)

jam05 said:


> m6Ii had not been discontinued globally. Only one or two small markets that dont sell a lot of cameras. Canon management has already debunked that rumor.


I’m not sure that second part is correct. One of the two countries where M6II sales were apparently discontinued is Japan.

Canon management stated the M line would be continued and suggested there would be new M-series products coming. But they said nothing about the M6 line specifically. It would make sense for them to try and shift high-end M users to the R line, so dropping the M6 line while releasing successors to the M200 and/or M50 II would make sense.

What would _not_ make sense for Canon is abandoning a line that comprises 30% of the cameras they sell. There are some that think Canon is that foolish, just as there are some that believe the earth is flat.


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## jam05 (Jul 4, 2022)

This is not a believable rumor. Simply a makeup for the failed R10 m50 replacement speculation. Canon normally is not reactionary. For CR to simply post that after decades of Canon being a leader and trend setter to all of a sudden change to being this reactionary over a product that barely is in consumers hands, let alone being anyrhing close in popularity is simply stupidity. This is basically the same near decade old recycled speculation masquerading as a new rumor.


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## jam05 (Jul 4, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I’m not sure that second part is correct. One of the two countries where M6II sales were apparently discontinued is Japan.
> 
> Canon management stated the M line would be continued and suggested there would be new M-series products coming. But they said nothing about the M6 line specifically. It would make sense for them to try and shift high-end M users to the R line, so dropping the M6 line while releasing successors to the M200 and/or M50 II would make sense.
> 
> What would _not_ make sense for Canon is abandoning a line that comprises 30% of the cameras they sell. There are some that think Canon is that foolish, just as there are some that believe the earth is flat.


However, The M6 mk 2 is still for sale in Japan. So maybe one vendor in Japan may have discontinued selling it. It was never reported that the entire country of Japan including Canon online sales has discontinued the M6k 2, only a particular online site. It is still very much for sale in the country of Japan.


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## jam05 (Jul 4, 2022)

It is most probable that Canon will release a point and shoot Powershot camera and simply market it in much the same way as the Sony EV1. vlogging


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 4, 2022)

jam05 said:


> However, The M6 mk 2 is still for sale in Japan. So maybe one vendor in Japan may have discontinued selling it. It was never reported that the entire country of Japan including Canon online sales has discontinued the M6k 2, only a particular online site. It is still very much for sale in the country of Japan.


As far as I can tell, it cannot be bought on Canon Japan’s web store. It’s listed, but cannot be added to a cart. Since I can add other items to a cart, I presume there’s not some geographical issue. Certainly some retailers will still have stock, but that’s generally true for a discontinued product. Amazon.jp only lists it from 3rd party sellers, not Amazon itself. 

If Canon Japan isn’t selling it, that has implications. Maybe not major ones, since it’s just Japan and Australia (but we’re not talking about Tuvalu and Liechtenstein here).


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## DanP (Jul 4, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> As far as I can tell, it cannot be bought on Canon Japan’s web store. It’s listed, but cannot be added to a cart. Since I can add other items to a cart, I presume there’s not some geographical issue. Certainly some retailers will still have stock, but that’s generally true for a discontinued product. Amazon.jp only lists it from 3rd party sellers, not Amazon itself.
> 
> If Canon Japan isn’t selling it, that has implications. Maybe not major ones, since it’s just Japan and Australia (but we’re not talking about Tuvalu and Liechtenstein here).


I can’t say for sure if the M6II has been discontinued in Canada, but I searched on 6 retailers websites and can’t find it listed for sale. Amazon.ca shows some listings through external sellers. I found it on the Canon Canada website, but when I hit Buy it produces an error message.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jul 4, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Canon normally is not reactionary.


This rumor is basically an m300 or m6 mark III for the RF mount
Such a product would not be reactionary even though the rumor is worded that way


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## EOS 4 Life (Jul 4, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> As far as I can tell, it cannot be bought on Canon Japan’s web store. It’s listed


The m6 mark II is listed as discontinued
The KISS M2 and M200 are the only two models available for purchase there


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## EOS 4 Life (Jul 4, 2022)

jam05 said:


> It is most probable that Canon will release a point and shoot Powershot camera and simply market it in much the same way as the Sony EV1. vlogging


Sony shortly followed that up with the ZV-E10 ILC


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## lote82 (Jul 4, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon management stated the M line would be continued and suggested there would be new M-series products coming.


Really? 
Where is this statement? 
Did Canon use the words "continue" and "new M-series products"? 
Where are the facts?


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## SnowMiku (Jul 4, 2022)

lote82 said:


> Really?
> Where is this statement?
> Did Canon use the words "continue" and "new M-series products"?
> Where are the facts?


Here is an article about what Canon sees for the future of the M series.









No, it's not dead! "The EOS M line DOES have a place in our range" says Canon


The Canon EOS R7 and R10 have NOT killed the EOS M cameras, but rather "sit alongside as part of the EOS family"




www.digitalcameraworld.com


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## Bob Howland (Jul 4, 2022)

SnowMiku said:


> Here is an article about what Canon sees for the future of the M series.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, that's an article about what Canon _says_ they see for the future of the M series. "Observe the behavior and infer the motivations."


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## lote82 (Jul 4, 2022)

SnowMiku said:


> Here is an article about what Canon sees for the future of the M series.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know this article, thank you! 
There is no word about "continue" or "new M-series products".

So ... what am I missing?!


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## stevelee (Jul 4, 2022)

If I wanted an M series camera, I would buy it right now, just in case. My brief look at the M50 was a positive experience, but I never figured out a usage niche for anything between my G cameras and my DSLR. I never have occasion to use my T3i as it is. I have removed its battery so that it is less likely to ruin just sitting. Until I bought the 16–35mm f/4, I figured I’d use the EF-S 10–22mm on the T3i for my wide angle needs. Instead, when driving home from a classmate’s funeral, I decided that life was too short to put off buying the lens. So I stopped at the Best Buy on my way home and bought it. Am I correct that I could use the EF-S lens on an M camera?


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 4, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> No, that's an article about what Canon _says_ they see for the future of the M series. "Observe the behavior and infer the motivations."


Canon is a publicly traded company. Their primary motivation is to increase ROI for their shareholders, no inference required.

The article @SnowMiku linked is not the source to which I was referring. In an interview, the CEO of Canon China stated, …”_it is unlikely that the M series will not be upgraded in the future._” More importantly, he provided the relative breakdown of Canon’s camera line unit sales:

EOS R - 20%
EOS M - 30%
DSLR - 40%
P&S - 10%

The idea that Canon will produce only the RF mount going forward, effectively abandoning 70% of their camera sales, is patently asinine. If Canon can shift that 70% to RF, sure. But it’s been 10 years since Canon launched MILCs, and 44% of the ILCs they sell are still DSLRs. That’s a very slow shift.

Could a person of reasonable intelligence or with even a rudimentary business acumen look at those numbers and infer that Canon will be motivated to walk away from two major market segments? Of course not, but reading posts on this forum makes it obvious that some members lack reasonable intelligence or have less business acumen than a bowling ball.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 4, 2022)

stevelee said:


> If I wanted an M series camera, I would buy it right now, just in case. My brief look at the M50 was a positive experience, but I never figured out a usage niche for anything between my G cameras and my DSLR. I never have occasion to use my T3i as it is. I have removed its battery so that it is less likely to ruin just sitting. Until I bought the 16–35mm f/4, I figured I’d use the EF-S 10–22mm on the T3i for my wide angle needs. Instead, when driving home from a classmate’s funeral, I decided that life was too short to put off buying the lens. So I stopped at the Best Buy on my way home and bought it. Am I correct that I could use the EF-S lens on an M camera?


Yes, with the EF-M mount adapter any EF or EF-S lens will work on an M-series body. 

I’m a bit confused, though. Did you buy the 16-35/4? Do you have a FF ILC? A 16-35 on a an APS-C camera (like the T3i or M50) gives framing like 26mm on FF, and I believe most G series have lenses starting equivalent to 24mm.


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## lote82 (Jul 4, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon is a publicly traded company. Their primary motivation is to increase ROI for their shareholders, no inference required.
> 
> The article @SnowMiku linked is not the source to which I was referring. In an interview, the CEO of Canon China stated, …”_it is unlikely that the M series will not be upgraded in the future._” More importantly, he provided the relative breakdown of Canon’s camera line unit sales:
> 
> ...


You were fooled by canonwatch. 

The source of the interview is here:


佳能：EOS R7/R10是对EOS R系统的补充，研发重心将转向EOS R_器材_色影无忌



The supposed quote _"... it is unlikely that the M series will not be upgraded in the future"_ is nowhere to be found!

This and a lot more is falsely interpreted and written by canonwatch.

Just read the hilarious translation of the original source!


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## stevelee (Jul 4, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yes, with the EF-M mount adapter any EF or EF-S lens will work on an M-series body.
> 
> I’m a bit confused, though. Did you buy the 16-35/4? Do you have a FF ILC? A 16-35 on a an APS-C camera (like the T3i or M50) gives framing like 26mm on FF, and I believe most G series have lenses starting equivalent to 24mm.


Sorry I wasn't clear. I bought a 6D2 not long after it came out. I got it with the non-L 24–105mm kit lens with the idea that I would use it along with the EF lenses I already had until I decided what new lenses to buy. The kit lens turned out to be fine for general use, and so I mainly needed to get something longer and something shorter. The next year I decided that I would buy the 16–35 f/4 for my birthday present to myself the following October. I didn't see a need to rush because I could always use the 10–22 on my T3i for my wide-angle needs. But in the spring a high school classmate died unexpectedly, and driving home from the funeral, I decided given the uncertainties of life, it didn't make sense to wait for October to buy a lens I could use already, and I wasn't going to be any better off financially in October than I was then. So that is when I stopped at Best Buy for the lens. After the camera, I bought the EF 100–400 II, so have the range pretty well covered. I travel with the G5X II and use the 6D2 for everything else.


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## Del Paso (Jul 4, 2022)

Calumet Germany still sells the M6 II.
So, if you need-want one ...


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 4, 2022)

lote82 said:


> You were fooled by canonwatch.
> 
> The source of the interview is here:
> 
> ...


Although I’ll generally continue ignoring your drivel, I will on occasion correct blatant misinformation when you post it.

The actual source of the interview is here:



佳能：EOS R7/R10是对EOS R系统的补充，研发重心将转向EOS R_器材_色影无忌



I have colleagues who can properly translate Chinese, probably the person who runs CanonWatch does, as well.

Short of that, find this section of the actual source, it’s about 40% of the way down the page:



> 顺便再跟您说一下，*EOS R大概占比是两成，我们单反相机占比是四成。*您从我的介绍之中可以听出来，在我们相机销售收入之中M系列占到了三成之多，这是一个很高的数字，所以我们接下来不可能就不再对M系列进行升级了。



…and put it through Google translate:



> By the way, let me tell you again, the EOS R accounts for about 20%, and our SLR cameras account for 40%. You can hear from my introduction that the M series accounts for as much as 30% of our camera sales revenue, which is a very high number, *so it is impossible for us to stop upgrading the M series in the future.*



That’s an even stronger affirmation of the M series’ future upgrades that CanonWatch’s translation.

So, who is being fooled? The only thing hilarious here is your lack of comprehension.


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## lote82 (Jul 4, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Although I’ll generally continue ignoring your drivel, I will on occasion correct blatant misinformation when you post it.
> 
> The actual source of the interview is here:
> 
> ...





佳能：EOS R7/R10是对EOS R系统的补充，研发重心将转向EOS R_器材_色影无忌



This link was given by canonwatch!
Now you come with your own sources and translations... 

Xitek is the well known source for being the number one source of anything you want to hear. It is so popular and such a reputable source that you need to do your own translation...


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 4, 2022)

lote82 said:


> 佳能：EOS R7/R10是对EOS R系统的补充，研发重心将转向EOS R_器材_色影无忌
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The links are the same source. CanonWatch provided a link to a Google translation of the source article, but the link specifies translating from Japanese to English which is why the translation is filled with gibberish. The original source is written in Chinese. Evidently you cannot tell the difference between Japanese and Chinese. Selecting Chinese for the source language in Google Translate, or simply letting Google auto-detect the source language (which it does, as Chinese), gives a proper translation.

Are you really that clueless?

That was a rhetorical question, it's clear that you are.

I’m done here, as usual a discussion with you is pointless.


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## lote82 (Jul 4, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> The links are the same source. CanonWatch provided a link to a Google translation of the source article, but the link specifies translating from Japanese to English which is why the translation is filled with gibberish. The original source is written in Chinese. Evidently you cannot tell the difference between Japanese and Chinese. Selecting Chinese for the source language in Google Translate, or simply letting Google auto-detect the source language (which it does, as Chinese), gives a proper translation.
> 
> Are you really that clueless?
> 
> ...


Thank you and all the best while waiting for your chinese M-whatsoever!


----------



## Bob Howland (Jul 4, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon is a publicly traded company. Their primary motivation is to increase ROI for their shareholders, no inference required.


Given that, why should we believe that the quote _"... it is unlikely that the M series will not be upgraded in the future"_ is intended to provide useful and correct information to current and prospective buyers instead of just manipulating those buyers so that the M-system cash cow dies more slowly?


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 4, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> Given that, why should we believe that the quote _"... it is unlikely that the M series will not be upgraded in the future"_ is intended to provide useful and correct information to current and prospective buyers instead of just manipulating those buyers so that the M-system cash cow dies more slowly?


What makes you think most buyers of entry level bodies are repeat buyers of entry level bodies, such that they would need reassurance?

Step back and look at the bigger picture. Multiple Canon representatives in multiple geographies are stating that Canon will continue supporting a system that represents 30% of its camera sales. It’s a very reasonable statement to make, just as if a Toyota exec stated they would keep selling the Camry. 

But you think it’s a global marketing conspiracy to dupe unsuspecting consumers in to bait-and-switch purchases of a line that Canon is about to abandon. Better get your tinfoil hat checked, sounds like it’s too tight.


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## lote82 (Jul 4, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> What makes you think most buyers of entry level bodies are repeat buyers of entry level bodies, such that they would need reassurance?
> 
> Step back and look at the bigger picture. Multiple Canon representatives in multiple geographies are stating that Canon will continue supporting a system that represents 30% of its camera sales. It’s a very reasonable statement to make, just as if a Toyota exec stated they would keep selling the Camry.
> 
> But you think it’s a global marketing conspiracy to dupe unsuspecting consumers in to bait-and-switch purchases of a line that Canon is about to abandon. Better get your tinfoil hat checked, sounds like it’s too tight.


But will it still be 30% when R7 and R10 are broadly available?


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 4, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> … the M-system cash cow dies more slowly?


Remember in 2013, when the ‘death of the consumer DSLR’ was predicted to be 5 years away?




It’s been 9 years and DSLRs still comprise 40% of Canon’s camera sales.

These ‘dying cash cows’ sure seem to take their own sweet time about dying, don’t they? 

Here’s an idea: those who believe the M line is dead can just keep stating that consistently. In the same way a broken analog clock shows the correct time twice a day, maybe they’ll be right…in a decade or two. Until then, their statements will continue making them look foolish, just like Andrew Reid.


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## stevelee (Jul 4, 2022)

lote82 said:


> But will it still be 30% when R7 and R10 are broadly available?


Depends upon the prices including a kit lens.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 4, 2022)

stevelee said:


> Depends upon the prices including a kit lens.


R7 w/ kit lens: $1900
R10 w/ kit lens: $1100
M50 II w/ kit lens: $700
M200 w/ kit lens: $550
Rebel T7 (2000D) w/ kit lens: $480

Certainly cameras costing 2-4x as much will dramatically cut into sales of those much cheaper cameras. Or so I might say if I had less business acumen than a bowling ball and/or a strong desire to make myself look foolish.


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## lote82 (Jul 5, 2022)

stevelee said:


> Depends upon the prices including a kit lens.


Yes, but it also depends on who is willing to spend its hard earned money in an dying system with old cameras and lenses or rather in a new system with state of the art cameras and lenses ... 

Keep in mind R7 and R10 are already reality. 
R100, R7c and (NEW!)R10a are already rumored.
Not to mention the upgrade path to new FF R-cameras.
Not to mention the rumored new RF and RF-S lenses.

What are the M news?
Nothing (except some babble of a neurotic anatomist)

By the way ... R10 (kit) and M6 II (kit) have quite exactly the same price!


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## lote82 (Jul 5, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> R7 w/ kit lens: $1900
> R10 w/ kit lens: $1100
> M50 II w/ kit lens: $700
> M200 w/ kit lens: $550
> ...


You have "forgotten" to mention the M6 II.

The M6 II kit 1082€
R10 kit 1099€

There is a direct competition between M6 II and R10.
Somehow a business clown like you has missed that! 

Oh wait ...
First you claim the M6 II isn't discontinued.
Now the M6 II is even not existing.
Funny!

_"You change your mind
Like a girl changes clothes"_


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## EOS 4 Life (Jul 5, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> Given that, why should we believe that the quote _"... it is unlikely that the M series will not be upgraded in the future"_ is intended to provide useful and correct information to current and prospective buyers instead of just manipulating those buyers so that the M-system cash cow dies more slowly?


It is generally not wise for publicly traded to make false comments that could influence investors


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## Bob Howland (Jul 5, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> It is generally not wise for publicly traded to make false comments that could influence investors


What about ambiguous comments to influence customers?

Update: How is "unlikely" testable at any level?


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## ryanbird (Jul 5, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Remember in 2013, when the ‘death of the consumer DSLR’ was predicted to be 5 years away?
> 
> View attachment 204493
> 
> ...


but are they making any new ef lens or DSLR?


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 5, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> What about ambiguous comments to influence customers?


Does, ”The M series accounts for as much as 30% of our camera sales revenue, which is a very high number, so it is impossible for us to stop upgrading the M series in the future,” sound ambiguous to you?

I’m just not seeing it. Maybe if I had a tinfoil hat like yours I could see the subtle nuances of ambiguity Canon is using to influence their weak-minded customers with statements like the above. 

More broadly, of course corporate spokespeople make ambiguous statements, especially in interviews. Usually, it’s because they either can’t provide the information or don’t know it. Even when they do know and are allowed to state the information, they usually throw in a little intentional ambiguity because experience has taught them that plans change. That’s why, in this case, I suspect CanonWatch’s translation of the phrase as ‘unlikely the M series will not be upgraded’ is probably more accurate than Google’s translation as ‘impossible for us to stop upgrading the M series’. The former sounds more like what an exec would say (at least in the US and Europe, I don’t know if behavior is different in Asia). But the point of the intentional ambiguity is to avoid statements being made retroactively false if current plans change, not to dupe customers.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 5, 2022)

ryanbird said:


> but are they making any new ef lens or DSLR?


I don’t think we’ll see anymore EF lenses launched. It’s a mature line, releases in the last decade were incremental upgrades to existing lenses.

I do suspect we will see one or two more DSLR launches from Canon – xxxD and/or xxxxD bodies with minor upgrades from current entry-level bodies, the main purpose really wbeing to update the release year.


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## stevelee (Jul 5, 2022)

lote82 said:


> Yes, but it also depends on who is willing to spend its hard earned money in an dying system with old cameras and lenses or rather in a new system with state of the art cameras and lenses ...


Entry-level buyers are rarely much concerned about buying into a system. A fair percentage of them never buy any more lenses than the one or two they get with the camera.

Even I, who had once been rather serious about photography, bought my first Rebel as an impulse purchase. I stopped into H. H. Gregg to look at TVs and washers and dryers. I saw a good price on the camera. The deal included a case and some odds and ends, and for an extra $100 I could get a 75–300mm lens, too. With the kit lens that gave me the equivalent of 24mm to 480mm range, so why would I buy anything else or worry about an upgrade path? I took many good photos with that equipment. (When I was a kid I took many good photos with a Kodak Brownie, though likely not as good as the pictures that Ansel Adams took with a box camera.)

As it turned out, I did over the years spend thousands of dollars more on Canon cameras and lenses, but that was not my concern when I bought the first Rebel. I can easily understand folks who buy entry level cameras without thinking, “How will this affect me ten or fifteen years from now?” I was one of them. As it turned out, in retirement I wound up more comfortable financially than I had anticipated, and I wound up devoting more of my time to photography, but I didn’t know that in 2007.

(And I realize things have changed somewhat over the last 15 years, as cell phone cameras have gotten better, and a lot of folks are mainly just taking pictures of themselves. So the number and range of folks buying entry-level cameras has changed. Stats suggest that the cash cows for camera makers tend more toward Rebel and M class than toward TS-E lenses or the R3.)


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## EOS 4 Life (Jul 5, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> What about ambiguous comments to influence customers?


Those are pretty typical of Canon.
Yet somehow narratives get pushed that they just made a definitive statement


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## EOS 4 Life (Jul 5, 2022)

ryanbird said:


> but are they making any new ef lens or DSLR?


Canon just made two EF/PL cinema zoom lenses.
One is available now and the other is scheduled for September.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 5, 2022)

stevelee said:


> Entry-level buyers are rarely much concerned about buying into a system. A fair percentage of them never buy any more lenses than the one or two they get with the camera.


Exactly. While you're correct that the entry-level buyer profile has changed over time, it can be reasonably inferred from data Canon has shared (e.g. 70% of their camera sales are DSLR and M bodies) and top-seller lists that entry-level kits still comprise the majority of Canon's camera sales. Such buyers are not following interviews with Canon executives as they make their buying decisions. Canon tries to influence them through advertisements placed with media outlets and by providing cameras to 'influencers'. The suggestion that Canon is trying to influence entry-level buyers with ambiguous statements by executives being interviewed is ridiculous.


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## Czardoom (Jul 5, 2022)

It is quite amazing that people can spend pages and pages of arguments on a subject that* they don't know the answers to*. 
Question to those who feel like that they are on a mission to convince others that the M system is dead and will be discontinued. What exactly are you trying to prove? We don't know the answer as to what will happen to the M system, and yet you seem to be adamant that you do know. Trying to show everyone here that you have brilliant predictive powers? Or what exactly? 

What do we know?
The M system makes up 30% of Canon's sales.
The M6 II is apparently discontinued, at least in some markets.
Canon is releasing APS-C cameras.

All the rest is speculation.

Who has the guts to admit they don't actually know what will happen and that all of their arguments regarding the demise of the M system are just a waste of time and effort? And that name-calling and insults when people confront them with the facts are just immature and border on trolling? 

Anybody have the guts??


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## lote82 (Jul 5, 2022)

stevelee said:


> Entry-level buyers are rarely much concerned about buying into a system. A fair percentage of them never buy any more lenses than the one or two they get with the camera.
> 
> Even I, who had once been rather serious about photography, bought my first Rebel as an impulse purchase. I stopped into H. H. Gregg to look at TVs and washers and dryers. I saw a good price on the camera. The deal included a case and some odds and ends, and for an extra $100 I could get a 75–300mm lens, too. With the kit lens that gave me the equivalent of 24mm to 480mm range, so why would I buy anything else or worry about an upgrade path? I took many good photos with that equipment. (When I was a kid I took many good photos with a Kodak Brownie, though likely not as good as the pictures that Ansel Adams took with a box camera.)
> 
> ...


As you said, the buying behavior for cameras changed in the last 15 years.

15 years ago a lot of people (me included) weren't spending that much money in their (smart)phones. Therefore impulse purchases for "real" cameras were far more likely.

Nowadays smartphone cameras are so good that only an decreasing(!) number of people are willing to spend their money in additional "traditional" cameras. These people are more aware of what they need and what they buy regarding photography. If you already have spent 800€ (or even more) in your iPhone13 you are well aware that spending only 500€ in a camera (with kit lens) won't give you much (or even no) advantage to your smartphone!

M isn't dying because of the R system. It is dying because it cannot evolve with time.
It is limited to small, cheap, light which was good enough while (smart)phone cameras were also limited. But this is not enough to compete with increasingly powerful smartphone cameras nowadays and in the future.

For nearly every photographing subject you will also find very good smartphone examples nowadays. The big advantages of traditional cameras are better tracking capabilities of fast moving subjects with higher burst speed and more reach (tele lenses). Especially everything combined as in sports and wildlife photography.

M never offered this nor probably(!) will.
R does and will also do in the future.

This is my OPINION (based on facts).


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## lote82 (Jul 5, 2022)

What has M to offer what modern smartphones can't?
Even the rather cheap R10 has the same AF system as the much more expensive R3.
Is Canon gone crazy or is this a very smart move to give even entry models features no smartphone (at least now) can offer?


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 5, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> It is quite amazing that people can spend pages and pages of arguments on a subject that* they don't know the answers to*.
> Question to those who feel like that they are on a mission to convince others that the M system is dead and will be discontinued. What exactly are you trying to prove? We don't know the answer as to what will happen to the M system, and yet you seem to be adamant that you do know. Trying to show everyone here that you have brilliant predictive powers? Or what exactly?
> 
> What do we know?
> ...


Definitely agree that no one here knows the fate of the M-series. However, I presume that a VP and country-level CEO for Canon is likely to have at least some knowledge of the fate of the M-series, and one of those individuals explicitly stated the line would see future updates. For him to state that publicly is significant, because he would have known in advance what he could and could not reveal about Canon's plans.

As you say, we know that the M system comprises 30% of Canon's camera sales. Letting that market segment wither away is certainly not in Canon's best interest. Honestly, I'm not sure how it's in anyone's on this forum's best interest to have _fewer_ camera choices. I was completely wrong about Canon launching an APS-C EOS R, but for photographers in general I'm quite happy that I was wrong about that. 

I suppose maybe the argument is that if Canon stops making [insert products I don't personally want], then they'll develop and launch [insert products I spend my nights dreaming about fondling], just for me. Lol.


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## lote82 (Jul 5, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I was completely wrong about Canon launching an APS-C EOS R, but for photographers in general I'm quite happy that I was wrong about that.


My first thought: Your account was hacked! 
My second: I'm quite speechless ... I never thought you would ever admit a mistake!

Well ... I knew I was wrong with the xitek translation but it was too late to admit! 


neuroanatomist said:


> Honestly, I'm not sure how it's in anyone's on this forum's best interest to have _fewer_ camera choices.


I think that was related (not only but also) to me. Let me try to clarify some things:
Yes, I think Canon will offer "fewer camera choices" in the future. This is also regarding to mounts. I have reasons to think so, like you have your reasons not to think so!

But this doesn't mean I am happy about that! If I could decide I would always prefer having more options instead of less. But I can't decide. I have to accept what's been offered. Like you and everyone else I also don't know what Canon will do in the future. All is speculation based on what I see and hear.

I know you (and others) in this forum think I hate the M system. This is not true. I hated how M supporters were talking about supposed RF APS-C cameras over the years. Probably I feel too much malicious joy now that the tables have turned. 

If I'm wrong about the future of the M system it would be totally fine because now I already have what I wanted (R7)!



neuroanatomist said:


> I suppose maybe the argument is that if Canon stops making [insert products I don't personally want], then they'll develop and launch [insert products I spend my nights dreaming about fondling], just for me. Lol.


No, the argument is that there is no reason to support two APS-C lines (or even three with EF) and nothing else!


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## Jethro (Jul 5, 2022)

lote82 said:


> My first thought: Your account was hacked!
> My second: I'm quite speechless ... I never thought you would ever admit a mistake!


This is simply untrue - Neuro immediately and fully acknowledged his mistake (by which I mean: mistaken opinion) when the R7 and R10 were announced. That is, months ago. As did a bunch of others here (including me) who doubted that an APS-C RF body (and specific lenses) would appear. 

All of which clearly affects the medium term future (and 'development') of the M system, but won't have much short term effect, despite the fixations of some posters.


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## lote82 (Jul 5, 2022)

Jethro said:


> This is simply untrue - Neuro immediately and fully acknowledged his mistake (by which I mean: mistaken opinion) when the R7 and R10 were announced. That is, months ago. As did a bunch of others here (including me) who doubted that an APS-C RF body (and specific lenses) would appear.
> 
> All of which clearly affects the medium term future (and 'development') of the M system, but won't have much short term effect, despite the fixations of some posters.


I'm sorry, but I'm not aware of every post anybody has made in the last months. But feel free to show me!



Jethro said:


> All of which clearly affects the medium term future (and 'development') of the M system, but won't have much short term effect, despite the fixations of some posters.


I'm sorry, but even with google translator I'm not able to understand what you are trying to say ... what do mean with "fixations of some posters"? 
I fixate my posters with UHU Patafix (awesome stuff!), but I don't think this is what you meant!


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## Linteria (Jul 6, 2022)

jam05 said:


> m6Ii had not been discontinued globally. Only one or two small markets that dont sell a lot of cameras. Canon management has already debunked that rumor.


Thank youuuu... Too many are still repeating that lie.


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## Skux (Jul 6, 2022)

EOS M is not dying without an equivalently-priced RF equivalent, and right now Canon seems to hate the idea of introducing RF in this price bracket (understandable given supply constraints and the much more profitable margins on enthusiast/pro gear).

With that being said my outlook is that EOS M development is finished and they are happy to just keep manufacturing the lenses and bodies as long as they're selling. When that drops off maybe they'll finally introduce budget RF cameras to reinvigorate the lower end market (if that market even exists in five years).


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## EOS 4 Life (Jul 6, 2022)

jam05 said:


> m6Ii had not been discontinued globally. Only one or two small markets that dont sell a lot of cameras. Canon management has already debunked that rumor.


Japan is a small market?


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## Bob Howland (Jul 6, 2022)

jam05 said:


> m6Ii had not been discontinued globally. Only one or two small markets that dont sell a lot of cameras. Canon management has already debunked that rumor.


When Samsung was abandoning their NX system, they denied it for quite a while. Companies often mislead when it suits their purpose.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 6, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> When Samsung was abandoning their NX system, they denied it for quite a while. Companies often mislead when it suits their purpose.


When Samsung was abandoning their NX system, what fraction of Samsung’s total corporate revenue did it represent?

The M system accounts for ~4% of Canon’s total corporate revenue. Are you simply being argumentative, or do you actually believe that Canon is purposefully misleading customers while already having decided to abandon 4% of their corporate top line?


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## ryanbird (Jul 6, 2022)

Linteria said:


> Thank youuuu... Too many are still repeating that lie.


They are not selling here in HongKong.


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## lote82 (Jul 6, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> When Samsung was abandoning their NX system, what fraction of Samsung’s total corporate revenue did it represent?


I don't know ... do you?


neuroanatomist said:


> The M system accounts for ~4% of Canon’s total corporate revenue. Are you simply being argumentative, or do you actually believe that Canon is purposefully misleading customers while already having decided to abandon 4% of their corporate top line?


Two completely different starting points:

1. When Samsung abandoned the NX system they left the whole camera market.

2. If Canon abandons the M system they are able to shift the revenue to the R system.

This is quite exactly what Canon is already doing. It is a slow process which already started by not developing new M products anymore. It is going further by selling the old products till consumer interest dries out. Meanwhile the consumer interest is shifted to new R models that substitute the old M products.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 6, 2022)

ryanbird said:


> They are not selling here in HongKong.


The M6II is widely available in the US, body in both color options and various lens ± EVF kits, direct from Canon USA as well as from major authorized retailers. In fact, I'm about to order one – I use an M6 for travel, and my oldest child has been using my old M2. Now my middle child has progressed to the point where she an ILC will serve her better than a P&S, so I'll shift the M2 to her, hand down my M6 to my oldest, and replace it with an M6II for myself.


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## -pekr- (Jul 7, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Although I’ll generally continue ignoring your drivel, I will on occasion correct blatant misinformation when you post it.
> 
> The actual source of the interview is here:
> 
> ...





neuroanatomist said:


> Short of that, find this section of the actual source, it’s about 40% of the way down the page:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What if we just underestimate what Canon marketing speach reflects in "future upgrade" to the EOS-M line? Might it also mean its continuation in an RF APS-C form? To answer my own rhetoric question - size wise, they can still get smaler than even R10 and some smaller RF-S lens might appear. I know that it will never be as small as an EOS-M equivalent, but maybe small enough for the market to buy the idea.

Where the idea does not work for me, though, is the price. If they would go under 800$, they would undermine the price point of R10 and other EOS-R APS-C cameras?


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## koenkooi (Jul 7, 2022)

-pekr- said:


> What if we just underestimate what Canon marketing speach reflects in "future upgrade" to the EOS-M line? Might it also mean its continuation in an RF APS-C form? To answer my own rhetoric question - size wise, they can still get smaler than even R10 and some smaller RF-S lens might appear. I know that it will never be as small as an EOS-M equivalent, but maybe small enough for the market to buy the idea.
> 
> Where the idea does not work for me, though, is the price. If they would go under 800$, they would undermine the price point of R10 and other EOS-R APS-C cameras?


If they are M200 style cameras, with a single dial, without an EVF and a very simplified user interface, they won't directly compete with the R10. Just look at the amount of "a _*real*_ photographer uses a viewfinder" gatekeeping we get on this forum


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 7, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> The M6II is widely available in the US, body in both color options and various lens ± EVF kits, direct from Canon USA as well as from major authorized retailers. In fact, I'm about to order one – I use an M6 for travel, and my oldest child has been using my old M2. Now my middle child has progressed to the point where she an ILC will serve her better than a P&S, so I'll shift the M2 to her, hand down my M6 to my oldest, and replace it with an M6II for myself.


After adding an M6II to my cart, it occurred to me that I’ve also got an EOS R that I am planning to sell, and an RF 24-240 on that would also be a possibility for my oldest. So I put the M18-150 on the M6 and the RF 24-105/4 (not too different from the 24-240) on the R and asked her preference. 

Turned out her preference was just to swap with her sister and use a P&S for simplicity and pocketability. Best laid plans and all that…


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## John Wilde (Jul 8, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon management stated the M line would be continued and suggested there would be new M-series products coming.


Inaction speaks louder than words.

For comparison:

"Asked to comment on a report by respected US website dpreview.com, which believes the Nikon 1 system is no longer in development, Brinkman said: ‘No, it’s not ending. Those are rumours. You can expect the J series especially to continue. This is really our mainstream model."

- Nikon Europe product manager Jordi Brinkman, 2016


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 8, 2022)

John Wilde said:


> Inaction speaks louder than words.
> 
> For comparison:
> 
> ...


The Nikon 1 never topped any best-seller lists, and certainly didn't comprise a reasonable fraction of Nikon's corporate bottom line. You're comparing apples to, well, not oranges...maybe to the sad little clementines accidentally left in the Xmas stocking that was stored in the hot attic for 11 months before being found. Yuck.

The M system is Canon's very successful attempt to penetrate the crop MILC market and is a global best-seller, has been for several years, and accounts for 30% of Canon's camera sales and ~4% total corporate revenue, while the Nikon 1 system was their attempt at penetrating the crop sensor MILC market that manifestly failed.


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## John Wilde (Jul 8, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Japan is a small market?


CIPA Mirrorless Shipments, in Yen, Jan-May 2022
Japan Mirrorless Camera Shipments, in Yen: 14,115,156
Mirrorless Camera Shipments, Except For Japan, in Yen: 150,442,479


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## Stakeout (Jul 8, 2022)

maybe before Canon starts bringing out more new camera models they ought to think hard about fulfilling the thousands of backorders on cameras like the R7 and others.. supply chain backlog is one thing.. adding to the mess at the expense of their customers that Canon seems to promote is another... all the rest are in the same boat--Nikon et al


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## scyrene (Jul 8, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> After adding an M6II to my cart, it occurred to me that I’ve also got an EOS R that I am planning to sell, and an RF 24-240 on that would also be a possibility for my oldest. So I put the M18-150 on the M6 and the RF 24-105/4 (not too different from the 24-240) on the R and asked her preference.
> 
> Turned out her preference was just to swap with her sister and use a P&S for simplicity and pocketability. Best laid plans and all that…


What a photographic family!


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## Rocky (Jul 8, 2022)

scyrene said:


> What a photographic family!


Daughters see, daughters do


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## koenkooi (Sep 13, 2022)

Very few new rumours about this model, I do hope Canon will announce it soon and have it actually available in 2022 as well.


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## Del Paso (Sep 13, 2022)

lote82 said:


> As you said, the buying behavior for cameras changed in the last 15 years.
> 
> 15 years ago a lot of people (me included) weren't spending that much money in their (smart)phones. Therefore impulse purchases for "real" cameras were far more likely.
> 
> ...


Based on YOUR "facts".


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 13, 2022)

Each smartphone camera I saw so far has horrible image quality, if you reall pixel peep. Of course on a 1920x1080 screen on a notebook those images will always look great and on Instagram even more, but if you look at those photos at pixel level, you will see a huge difference to even the cheapest DSLR with an APS-C sensor. 

I can't understand why smartphones are considered as serious cameras by some people. Smartphones are more a lifestyle product with a lot of compromises. While computational photography sometimes might improve a photo a lot, imagine how good it would look if you applied those same algorithms to a full frame photo. 

Why uuse a smartphone, if a real camera would allow you to get so much more light onto your sensor? Diffraction is a huge problem from a certain f-stop and it gets worse the smaller the sensor is. Those smartphone also cheat a lot when it comes to specs. No smartphone has an f/2 lens. A full frame f/2 lens already is an f/2.8 or so at APS-C and it gets worse and worse the smaller it gets. So a tiny smartphone might have an f/10 or f/14 lens with all its downsides. Those smartphones need to apply very aggressive noise reduction algorithms and that become very visible if you look at the 100% version of a smartphone photo.


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## EOS 4 Life (Sep 13, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> I can't understand why smartphones are considered as serious cameras by some people.


Most people do not need serious cameras.
The point and shoot market has been what the camera companies are claiming sales declines can be attributed to.


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## koenkooi (Sep 13, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> [..]I can't understand why smartphones are considered as serious cameras by some people. [..]


I'm in the "the best camera is the one that you have with you" camp. For a lot of situations bringing a 'proper' camera isn't practical and having *a* picture is better than having no picture.

As an anecdote: when my eldest was born, I put an EOS-M10 in the hospital bag and took some pictures. When my youngest was born I only brought my phone. There is a huge gap in image quality, but I have more and more interesting pictures from the phone, as well as had less stress when taking them. The phone can be dropped on a hard floor and still work, the M10 would just explode into tiny bits.

And there's a niche where recent phones do astronomically better than dedicated cameras: night mode. Handheld 3-second exposures that have a lot less motion blur that you'd expect and great colours.

And like you say a bit later in your post, it would be nice if we'd be able to use the same computational magic on our dedicated cameras, if only to watch the reactions here to having both distortion and artistic correction available


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 13, 2022)

What I do not like about smartphones is that they are optimized for being very flat and light. I wish there was at least something like the "Galaxy Camera" still available. Something that is still small enough to carry it with you at all times, but much thicker than a phone ans with a much larger sensor. I hate sacrificing image quality just because the smartphone manufacturer is proud of building a very slim phone. I am glad that there at least is a trend towards camera bumps getting bigger again. That is a step into the right direction. 

Also many people pay a lot of additional money for a high end smartphone with a better camera. I wish they invested that additional money into a real camera. That could last for much longer than a phone that many people replace after two years. I still use my DSLR from 2013 today. So next year it gets ten years old and still has a superb image quality.


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## lote82 (Sep 13, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> Based on YOUR "facts".


At least better than based on YOUR farts.


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## SnowMiku (Sep 13, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> I can't understand why smartphones are considered as serious cameras by some people. Smartphones are more a lifestyle product with a lot of compromises. While computational photography sometimes might improve a photo a lot, imagine how good it would look if you applied those same algorithms to a full frame photo.



The reason why people use smartphones for photography is because they are light weight, easy to use, decent image quality, always in your pocket ready to go and you can upload to social media very quickly. It doesn't matter to them if the APS-C or Full Frame looks better at 100%. For lots of people the compromises and the loss of IQ of the smart phone is well worth it for the convenience.

I don't think I've pixel peeped with my current smartphone photos on my PC but it will be interesting to see the difference.


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## SnowMiku (Sep 13, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> Why uuse a smartphone, if a real camera would allow you to get so much more light onto your sensor? Diffraction is a huge problem from a certain f-stop and it gets worse the smaller the sensor is. Those smartphone also cheat a lot when it comes to specs. No smartphone has an f/2 lens. A full frame f/2 lens already is an f/2.8 or so at APS-C and it gets worse and worse the smaller it gets. So a tiny smartphone might have an f/10 or f/14 lens with all its downsides. Those smartphones need to apply very aggressive noise reduction algorithms and that become very visible if you look at the 100% version of a smartphone photo.



The depth of field issue is addressed with AI. My phone has a lens that simulates a shallow depth of field, you can also change the focus after you take the shot which is pretty cool.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> Why uuse a smartphone, if a real camera would allow you to get so much more light onto your sensor?


How do you define 'real camera'? Why use a FF camera, when a large format digital back allows you to get so much more light onto your sensor? The LargeSense LS45 camera has ~25x larger area than a FF sensor, that's double the ~12x difference between the new iPhone 14 Pro's sensor and a FF sensor. 

The reason is compromise.


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## Del Paso (Sep 13, 2022)

lote82 said:


> At least better than based on YOUR farts.


You just won the prize for most stupid post of the year...


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 13, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> How do you define 'real camera'? Why use a FF camera, when a large format digital back allows you to get so much more light onto your sensor? The LargeSense LS45 camera has ~25x larger area than a FF sensor, that's double the ~12x difference between the new iPhone 14 Pro's sensor and a FF sensor.
> 
> The reason is compromise.


Of course cameras are always compromises, but a compromise usually is something in the middle of the spectrum and not at the extrem low end with the smallest possible sensor. A full frame is pretty much a compromise between very heavy and for most of us unffordable cameras and a smartphone.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 14, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> Of course cameras are always compromises, but a compromise usually is something in the middle of the spectrum and not at the extrem low end with the smallest possible sensor. A full frame is pretty much a compromise between very heavy and for most of us unffordable cameras and a smartphone.


Similarly, a smartphone is a compromise between a dedicated camera kit one must make an effort to carry at one extreme and no camera at all at the other extreme. For most people, a cell phone is always with them… and cameras are one of the main areas in which smartphones have been improving year over year.


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## stevelee (Sep 16, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> After adding an M6II to my cart, it occurred to me that I’ve also got an EOS R that I am planning to sell, and an RF 24-240 on that would also be a possibility for my oldest. So I put the M18-150 on the M6 and the RF 24-105/4 (not too different from the 24-240) on the R and asked her preference.
> 
> Turned out her preference was just to swap with her sister and use a P&S for simplicity and pocketability. Best laid plans and all that…


About 3 years ago I decided to replace my G7X II. The G7X III had come out, but it made advances in areas not so relevant to me. I went to Best Buy and looked at the M50. It seemed like a nice camera in a convenient size and price. But I decided that for travel I still preferred a camera that would fit in my jacket or pants pocket, and bought a G5X II. That worked out great for me for the trip to Italy and a Mediterranean cruise I did that fall. I took 3000 pictures with it. My only disappointment with it was some basketball video I shot this summer. The autofocus fished around too much at the beginning of shots. I should have just focused manually on a rim and depended upon the depth of field in the small lens to keep everything sharp enough. Also, extended 4K time cause overheating. I thought, great, I could have the 5R experience for thousands of dollars less. So I shot some of the video with my iPhone while the camera cooled off. But for stills, I have no complaints. So I can see where the daughter was coming from.

I am still favorably disposed toward the M system, but can’t come up with a usage case to buy one. If I’m going to be closer to home and traveling by car, then my DSLR is handy enough.


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## Johnw (Sep 16, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> on a 1920x1080 screen on a notebook those images will always look great and on Instagram even more



Right.



Skyscraperfan said:


> I can't understand why smartphones are considered as serious cameras by some people.



Didn't you just answer why that is? If they only care about viewing the pictures on Instagram or a notebook display, maybe that's all they need.


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## stevelee (Sep 16, 2022)

Some folks spend a lot of money upgrading their phone to get a better camera. If I want a better camera, I buy a new camera and keep my 2020 generation iPhone SE. At least in Apple’s line, to get the best camera, you get a humongous phone. I want a phone that fits in my shirt pocket. I don’t use the charging cradle in my car that much, but I doubt the Super Pro Max phone would fit anyway.


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## koenkooi (Sep 17, 2022)

stevelee said:


> [..]I want a phone that fits in my shirt pocket. [..]


Since I started selecting shirts to be able to fit a Kindle, I noticed that it isn't so much the size that makes keeping a phone in your shirt pocket annoying, it's the weight and grip. Bend over slightly and that glass and metal brick will come sliding out at warp speed!


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