# More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 30, 2015)

```
<p>The first thing people have noticed is the maximum ISO of 6400 for both the EOS 5DS and EOS 5DS R.</p>
<p>We’re told this is because of a much stronger CFA which will produce much greater color accuracy than anything currently in the Canon lineup.</p>
<p>The EOS 5D Mark IV will be the camera geared to sensitivity and lowlight performance and we will see one sometime in 2015.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

So this really is a straight up studio and landscape camera.... Interesting.


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## danski0224 (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I have read more than once that high ISO ability takes something away from low ISO- you can't have both with current technology.

So, if Canon tuned this for low ISO, it should be great.


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## dolina (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

So there will be a 5Ds, 5Ds R and 5D Mark IV?


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## torger (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

That's really interesting. A claimed advantage of medium format digital cameras have been that they have color-optimized CFAs rather than high ISO, it would be awesome if this sensor has taken the same type of optimization.

I think a 50 megapixel camera for sure should be optimized at high resolution use cases, rather than trying to be a hand-held low light action camera.


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## jaayres20 (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

So how does the Color Filter change the ISO sensitivity? Just as long as I can get usable images at ISO 6400 then I am good. I hardly ever go above that, and if I need to I can utilize my 1DX.


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## Orangutan (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



jaayres20 said:


> So how does the Color Filter change the ISO sensitivity? Just as long as I can get usable images at ISO 6400 then I am good. I hardly ever go above that, and if I need to I can utilize my 1DX.


I imagine stronger (darker) tinting on the filter lets in less light, but the color is more pure.


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## Jesse (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

Ugh so I'm gonna have to buy two cameras this year? One for portraiture and one for events?

NOOOOOOOOOO


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## Orangutan (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



dilbert said:


> Not once have I read someone complain about colour accuracy when shooting birds or sport.


I've seen mention of it for those situations, though more with human skin tone. I think the reason it's not common with birds and sports is that there are other factors which have a greater influence on the image quality of the final product. It doesn't matter how perfect the color (or DR), a blurry photo of the winning score is still just fodder for the bit-bucket.


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## torger (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



dilbert said:


> Not once have I read someone complain about colour accuracy when shooting birds or sport.



No, it's a medium format thing, on medium format forums these kind of very subtle and subjective color issues are discussed at length.

I can guarantee that it's a very small difference in the CFA, and it does not limit high ISO that much. Capping it at ISO6400 is probably more about differntiating their own products than that the sensor is really limited. It could be that the real fact is that they aim this camera to be a studio/landscape/architecture camera and people that care about utmost image quality and color and then you don't use high ISO much, and that fact has been transformed to this type of rumor.

Pentax 645z is a MF camera that is said to have CFA optimised for color accuracy and it also happens to have ISO 204800


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## Floydian (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

Who cares what kind of sensor is inside, i want maximum quality. Sony, Canon, i don't care at all. I'm a landscaper, i'm also not interested in a fast gun. High iso, yes nice, but only when it's usable, i have nothing on 12.600 images when i can't use it use. Superb 3200 would already be something to shoot northern lights.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Canon Rumors said:


> <p>The first thing people have noticed is the maximum ISO of 6400 for both the EOS 5DS and EOS 5DS R.</p>
> <p>We’re told this is because of a much stronger CFA which will produce much greater color accuracy than anything currently in the Canon lineup.</p>
> <p>The EOS 5D Mark IV will be the camera geared to sensitivity and lowlight performance and we will see one sometime in 2015.</p>
> <p><em>More to come…</em></p>
> <p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>



last summer you reported that canon was field testing in a NYC studio a new camera - and the color accuracy was commented on being better. (thus starting all the fovean rumors)

is it safe to say this was the sensor they were testing out?

http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/05/new-full-frame-camera-in-testing-cr1-2/


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## Marsu42 (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Canon Rumors said:


> The first thing people have noticed is the maximum ISO of 6400 for both the EOS 5DS and EOS 5DS R.



Most likely this is mostly due to marketing considerations to keep on selling two camera bodies - the high res and a "low light". 

But it doesn't make any difference as on the current ff cameras, *iso 6400 is the highest setting anyway* and everything above is (mostly) digitally amplified, so you can just shoot raw and underexpose. In any case, maybe Magic Lantern can "unlock" higher iso values if there's demand, we'll see.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Marsu42 said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > The first thing people have noticed is the maximum ISO of 6400 for both the EOS 5DS and EOS 5DS R.
> ...



if they are based upon EXMOR design and are close to ISOless - then it really doesn't matter.


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## Eagle Eye (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I suspect this camera is going to under-spec but outperform the D810, and performance at ISO 100 is what matters to me. More than a few times I took a hard look at the D800. Canon glass kept me in place, not because of investment but because of the EF mount and Canon's consistent forward progress with lenses. When I started shooting full frame, Nikon didn't even have a line of pro-grade fixed f/4 lenses. Nikon caught up option-wise, but I see the EF mount as more capable of handling the advanced lens designs necessary for digital 35mm to bridge the gap to medium format.


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## Diko (Jan 30, 2015)

*Colou*

Can't wait to see sample images and sensitivity comparisons...



torger said:


> That's really interesting. A claimed advantage of medium format digital cameras have been that they have color-optimized CFAs rather than high ISO, it would be awesome if this sensor has taken the same type of optimization.
> 
> I think a 50 megapixel camera for sure should be optimized at high resolution use cases, rather than trying to be a hand-held low light action camera.


 Actually NO! The trend with MF is to optimize the ISO availability ;-)

_A plea to the more knowledgeable people here:_ 
Could you please enlighten me why Canon is going for colour that actually eye perception is UNABLE to differentiate? Or I misunderstood it?


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## torger (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: Colou*



Diko said:


> Can't wait to see sample images and sensitivity comparisons...
> 
> Actually NO! The trend with MF is to optimize the ISO availability ;-)
> 
> ...



You can read this about the Phase One IQ250

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/the_phase_one_iq250_cmos_fully_realized.shtml

quoting the section on the CFA:

"As one example, the selection of a CFA, the color pattern put in front of the sensor, is a choice between quality of color, and ISO performance. If the CFA allows each pixel to see a broader spectrum of color (e.g. for the green pixels to see a bit further into yellow) a camera’s ISO range can be modestly increased. The resulting loss in color quality is subtle – subtle variations in color are missed and a handful of specific colors become difficult to photograph. In a market where a ISO 25,600 camera has a leg up on a ISO12,800 camera, the engineers are under enormous pressure to pick the modestly increased ISO over subtle color quality."

The trend of going to more ISO in MF is because CMOS has become available just recently. The olde CCD tech was just not capable. Still The IQ250 is capped at ISO6400.

Stay at MF-oriented forums for a while. Color is a big thing there. What's real and what's imagined differences is harder to understand, but even microscopic differences are important to that kind of users. So if you want to get good credibility in those circles this kind of optimization, regardless of how subtle it is, is valuable.


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## Zv (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Jesse said:


> Ugh so I'm gonna have to buy two cameras this year? One for portraiture and one for events?
> 
> NOOOOOOOOOO



You already have one for events. Did your 5D3 suddenly become useless?


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## Diko (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: Colou*



torger said:


> ....
> "As one example, the selection of a CFA, the color pattern put in front of the sensor, is a choice between quality of color, and ISO performance. If the CFA allows each pixel to see a broader spectrum of color (e.g. for the green pixels to see a bit further into yellow) a camera’s ISO range can be modestly increased. The resulting loss in color quality is subtle – subtle variations in color are missed and a handful of specific colors become difficult to photograph. In a market where a ISO 25,600 camera has a leg up on a ISO12,800 camera, the engineers are under enormous pressure to pick the modestly increased ISO over subtle color quality."
> ....


 Thanks for the INFO. But that did NOT in any way answer my question. I suppose most people here are clear that High ISO means low DR When you split in three RGB Monochrome signals it is more than clear that with high ISO you get not so nice images. 

And yet my question was related to: "*colour *that actually *eye perception* is *UNABLE *to differentiate?"


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: Colou*



Diko said:


> Can't wait to see sample images and sensitivity comparisons...
> 
> 
> torger said:
> ...


I think you did not understand. A strong color filter allows saturated colors (as a bright red flower) be captured without loss of color depth. In this regard, the old 1DS Mark iii was well above the 5D Mark II, which supposedly would have the same sensor.

It turns out that 1DS Mark iii had images with depth of color much better at ISO100, and noise worse at ISO 3200. I believe that we will see something similar with the new 5DS.


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## JonAustin (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



dolina said:


> So there will be a 5Ds, 5Ds R and 5D Mark IV?



It looks like Canon is planning to deploy three variants of a single design platform ... smart. As the market matures and saturates, it becomes necessary to segment to appeal to the niches.


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## ewg963 (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

Thumbs up Canon!!!


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## Arkarch (Jan 30, 2015)

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I'm in! 

It is definitely a specialists camera for Landscape / Studio. 

And I did need another FF to handle specific shots in other categories. I can see this as the "second body" for many - combined with a 5D3 or 1DX, you would have unstoppable range.


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## rfdesigner (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

Colour wise, I wonder if they are using 4 colours each one more seperated, compared to say the pro-photo colour space it would cover about 120%.. compared to the human eye probably about 100%.

Another thought on the colour: the 5Dc was always cited as producing excellent skin tones.. part of the reason I think is the lesser green sensitivity and the fact that it was a slightly more red biased green, not unlike human vision. see: http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/50d/test.htm.. about half way down there's a QE comparison between the 5Dc and the 5DII.

Whatever, it does look like canon have accepted the need for a "landscape/studio" camera, and hopefully it will be better built than the D800.

I'm still wondering if it will come with an updated mount.. EF compatible, but able to accept EFX (or whatever they call the next mount)


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## Maiaibing (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Jesse said:


> Ugh so I'm gonna have to buy two cameras this year? One for portraiture and one for events?
> 
> NOOOOOOOOOO



Listed high mpix specs seems great for events? If crop modes come with higher fps its even a hit.


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## memoriaphoto (Jan 30, 2015)

*FINALLY!*

A thousand times YES! 

This sounds like a new modern version of the 1Ds Mark III. If the files turn out to be 1Ds-ish in color and character with no AA filter and better DR I am soooo getting this one. This sounds like THE studio/wedding/portrait camera.

It will be an expensive year for sure... 

What about the price, anyone?


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## PhotographyFirst (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I can't seem to find the logic as to why people complain about certain things. 

We have options for everyone. Why is it when a new option comes along people act like they are being forced to buy it at gunpoint for something it is not intended? 

When 7D2 was released, people complained it didn't have a flippy touch screen and wifi. Does the 70D not exist? 

When the 11-24 was rumored, people complained it is too wide, too slow, and doesn't take filters. So no other fast UWA lens exists that takes filters? 

I really hope people's lives are not so boring and miserable that they feel the need to just constantly complain. These companies are giving us amazing options for little or no profit. I swear some people would complain about a free sandwich because it wasn't slice at the angle they prefer. 

I bet if we took someone from 1990 and brought them ahead in time, they would be dumbfounded, and eager to slap some people around for their perceived "first world problems." Back then, digital photography was a fantasy. Today, it is better than anyone could have ever imagined.


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## bereninga (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I guess to state the obvious: it looks like Canon and other camera companies are starting to ditch the idea of making a camera that does it all. More and more cameras that are specialized are being released. What's the difference between the 5DS and 5DS R though? Sorry if I had missed that somewhere in the flood of posts.

Added: Nevermind, just saw that 5DS R has no AA filter.


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## sanj (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Zv said:


> Jesse said:
> 
> 
> > Ugh so I'm gonna have to buy two cameras this year? One for portraiture and one for events?
> ...



ahahaha. well said!


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## Graphix501 (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I won't be able to afford any of these :'(.... why am I even here *pulls out iphone & gives up on photography*


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## bereninga (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



JonAustin said:


> dolina said:
> 
> 
> > So there will be a 5Ds, 5Ds R and 5D Mark IV?
> ...



Yes, it is very smart because the pros who have all of the needs (lowlight capabilities, fast AF) will end up having to buy more than one body. I hope they have deep pockets!


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## Meh (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



PhotographyFirst said:


> I can't seem to find the logic as to why people complain about certain things.
> 
> We have options for everyone. Why is it when a new option comes along people act like they are being forced to buy it at gunpoint for something it is not intended?
> 
> ...



You must be new to the Internet... it's what people do 'round these parts ;D


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## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



sanj said:


> Zv said:
> 
> 
> > Jesse said:
> ...



Exactly. I'm not giving up my 6D. I'll have a perfect general FF and now a kick-ass studio/landscape rig. If someone cant afford to keep both, wait for the 5D4 and get that instead. Given that THESE are the high MP bodies, how much better is the actual 5D4 going to be than the 5D3? A small to modest boost in MP? same 61 AF? 7-8 FPS? maybe 4k? It all depends on what you need. I suspect if you are very happy with a 5D3 now... a 5D4 won't add much to your plate. Buy the 5DS and keep the 5D3


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## siegsAR (Jan 30, 2015)

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Given all this, plus the mention that 6D's successor is going upmarket, maybe _there'll never be_ a 6DMkII after all. Hmmm, remains to be seen. :


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## The Flasher (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



dilbert said:


> ... I'm kind of expecting it to be in the vicinity of the 1DX so far as price goes.



At that price it'll be dead on arrival. The competition's offerings are in the $3.5k mark.

Cheers


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## drmikeinpdx (Jan 30, 2015)

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I can't see myself buying any of the new cameras, as I'm *very* happy with the 5D3 for my needs. However, it is gratifying for this Canon fanboy to see Canon moving ahead. I was starting to worry about their commitment to the DSLR market. 

It will be interesting to see if the strong dollar helps hold the USA price down a bit.

If anyone is in need of a new full frame body, the prices we are seeing for 5D3 bodies are very attractive right now!


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## Arkarch (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

>> What's the difference between the 5DS and 5DS R though?

The "R" model is for Pirates.


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## c.d.embrey (Jan 30, 2015)

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*Who makes the NEW Sensor * ??? The administrator over at *S*ony *A*lpha *R*umors is bleating that's it's *probably a Sony Sensor*. 

Of course he's often wrong about claiming wishful thinking to be truth


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## c.d.embrey (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



dolina said:


> So there will be a 5Ds, 5Ds R and 5D Mark IV?



And Canon is hoping you'll buy at least two of the three  An interesting way to increase lagging sales


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## Skirball (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Arkarch said:


> >> What's the difference between the 5DS and 5DS R though?
> 
> The "R" model is for Pirates.



I laughed.


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## lintoni (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Arkarch said:


> >> What's the difference between the 5DS and 5DS R though?
> 
> The "R" model is for Pirates.



I _did_ laugh out loud.


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## vjlex (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



The Flasher said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > ... I'm kind of expecting it to be in the vicinity of the 1DX so far as price goes.
> ...



If $3.5K is where it lands, they've got my attention. If I were to venture a shot in the dark, I would guess either $3999 or $4999. I would hope I was way off (like I was about the 7D2), but I just still remember being gobsmacked by the jump in price from 5D2 to 5D3.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



drmikeinpdx said:


> I can't see myself buying any of the new cameras, as I'm *very* happy with the 5D3 for my needs.



Going by that, Canon won't sell any 5ds at all - it has been stated again and again that 18mp is plenty 'nuff and there are severe drawbacks with higher sensor resolutions ...

... unless everyone has 50mp, you're getting left behind and the thing sits in front of you at your favorite retailer or one click away on amazon :->


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## rfdesigner (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



lintoni said:


> Arkarch said:
> 
> 
> > >> What's the difference between the 5DS and 5DS R though?
> ...



I'll never be able to look at any "R" version now without thinking of this.


brilliant!


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## Khalai (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Arkarch said:


> >> What's the difference between the 5DS and 5DS R though?
> 
> The "R" model is for Pirates.



Canon Fayf Dee Es Yarr?


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## KBStudio (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I wonder if Canon will be introducing new glass for the 5DS line or will the top of the line "L"s resolve enough for this chip. I am thinking they will as nothing except the 11-24mm has been mentioned in terms of new lenses.

Anyone interested in a Sony A7r with Metabones?


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## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



danski0224 said:


> I have read more than once that high ISO ability takes something away from low ISO- you can't have both with current technology.



Please ignore such claims. Anything that helps at high ISO helps at low ISO as well. Some things that help at low ISO help less at high ISO, but this isn't tuning an engine for low RPM versus high RPM.


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## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Canon Rumors said:


> We’re told this is because of a much stronger CFA which will produce much greater color accuracy than anything currently in the Canon lineup.



I'd be incredibly shocked if this made any real difference in color performance. Current raw images have way, way more gamut than any of the spaces we use and we have plenty of ability to find the right color in those areas with the possible exception of the whole purple/violet issue.

I've never found color accuracy to be a problem with any sensor, given raw shooting and processing with good tools.


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## Viggo (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Lee Jay said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We’re told this is because of a much stronger CFA which will produce much greater color accuracy than anything currently in the Canon lineup.
> ...



I disagree, I find when correcting color with my Color Checker that introduces noise that I could do without. To able to get correct color, and especially skin color, without the color checker would be fantastic!


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## DRR (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*


Happy with the announcement but this camera is not for me. It's for you guys, and I will be picking up a used 5D3 once you all start ditching them. 8)

Maybe in 3-4 years I'll get my 5Ds...


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## memoriaphoto (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Lee Jay said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We’re told this is because of a much stronger CFA which will produce much greater color accuracy than anything currently in the Canon lineup.
> ...



Just compare an older Canon with a newer - for example 1Ds Mark III vs 5D Mark III. The color balance and accuracy out of camera on normal ISO is much better in the old-timer thanks to a thicker CFA. Files simply need less work and that might be a huge time-saver for many photographers.


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## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Viggo said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



A stronger CFA is going to give you less light captured and thus more noise, not less.


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## Khufu (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

So my 5D3 is still relevant and trendy for another 6 months? Coool...
Enjoy all your shiny new megapickles, guuuiz - I'm off to shoot in the dark! (but not too dark for people to see my camera's still awesome and therefore so am I in 2015..)


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## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



memoriaphoto said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



Well, I have a 5D and a 550D, and I just don't see any real difference in this area between those two, and they would, I would guess, represent opposite ends of the spectrum in this area.


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## manyhats (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

i absolutely love this camera is potentially designed for studio and landscape. PLEASE have groundbreaking dynamic range!

for wedding/portrait crew that have their panties in a bunch: get over it already, get a 5D3, or stop wasting time complaining on an internet forum because you're probably an amateur anyway. any truly talented pro can produce incredible images with a 5D3.

my $.02


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## chromophore (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Lee Jay said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



The reality is somewhat more complex than that. It really depends on the implementation. For a given, fixed sensor efficiency, and ignoring the effects of read noise, stronger separation of color through more selective filters will generally result in less chrominance noise at the expense of greater overall luminance noise due to greater photon shot noise. If there is *no* filter, such as in the Leica Monochrom, then you have no ability to distinguish color (hence chroma noise is essentially undefined). If the filter is very weak, you could pick out colors, but very poorly--your chroma noise will be large if you try to compensate by boosting the saturation. If the filter is too strong, you've lost a lot of luminance information--a full stop or more--and although you've reduced the chroma noise, the luminance noise is worsened enough that the overall result is an increase in perceived noise. So we would expect that there would be a sweet spot of filter bandwidth that strikes a balance between color fidelity versus light-gathering ability.

Then things get even more complicated with read noise and other considerations such as lens transmission as a function of wavelength. Real-world photographic systems perform in ways that do not necessarily follow theoretical or idealized models. In fact, they rarely do.


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## Eldar (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

Canon has not earned their long term position on top of this market by being stupid. So even though there are lots of information we still need to see about these cameras, I am confident that for all of us who want a high resolution, high DR, low noise body, we will get it this time. (By the way, I am sometimes regarded as a bit optimistic ...)

I believe/hope this body will be the perfect compliment to my 1DX, which I expect to keep for action, birds and wildlife. My 5DIII will be for sale some time during the weekend.


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## andrewflo (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I think this is great news. Trying to make the 5DIV both a studio/landscape ultimate high resolution stills camera AND a sports/all-around/versatile/video camera would've meant sacrifices in both domains.

Now that there will be 2 (3) options of the next 5D, each can focus on their strengths.

Personally I'm looking forward to what the 5DIV has to offer.


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## Tinky (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

Hurrah!

Common sense over ISO's. Whilst the high numbers have been amazing.... I kind of felt out on a limb for doing the traditional things like adding light and keeping the ISO's low. In my film days I would have used 800 with reservations and would have had a long think before using 1600. 

Whilst I cannot claim there are no practical situations requiring 12'800, 104'500 etc.. I did get the feeling that for a lot of users it was because they could, rather than because they should....

Keen to see the video. Even a 16:9 crop of the 3:2 sensor should still yeild above 32MP.... nice clean UHD sampling.. potentially.


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## Bruce Photography (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

It is too early to say for sure whether to place my order for the R but next month I'll plan on cleaning up my Canon glass and a testing strategy and plan. I'm choosing the R because I have the D800 and the D800E and the D810 and for my high definition landscape work I prefer to work without the AA filter and it surpasses the D800 in resolution. As a side note, I see this result in the D7100 as well. 

My work is really almost always on a tripod, live view, cable release, shutter delay or electronic shutter on the 810. On this new Canon camera, my questions revolve around dynamic range (pulling detail out of the shadows while protecting detail in the highlights) as well as price and delivery. Now that I know Canon has finally committed to a high MP camera I can relax knowing that I will once again be able to use my Canon tilt-shift lenses as well as my super-tel. Now I might even look at that new lightweight 400mm that has caught my eye. This R version camera looks like my kind of camera as long as IQ is excellent at low ISO.


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## kurtj29 (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I can't wait to get this camera to use for my Instagram account.

LOL, but in all seriousness, I am looking forward to picking up a cheap lightly used 5DM3 from someone that just has to have the best.


----------



## dtheune (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

Anyone think they will kill the 6D and replace it with one of these 5D variants? I bought one of the refurnished 6D's over the holidays thanks to this site, paid $1200. It's great, but I can see them killing it off and replacing it with the 5D's with no low-pass filter.

Thoughts?


----------



## CaptureWhatYouSee (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

If it's the same size as the 6D, I'll stick with Canon. If it's the size of the 5DIII, I'll have to go with Sony.

BTW, does anyone know what makes the 5DIII so much bulkier than the 6D?


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

No kill on the 6D. There is nor will be anything else for it's price point. 5D4 isn't coming down to $2k. A 6D2 will stay right there


----------



## Menace (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

Very interested in this one


----------



## fox40phil (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

What does CFA mean? Would be nice if someone would explane me this or name me the fullname. Thanks !


----------



## Famateur (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



fox40phil said:


> What does CFA mean? Would be nice if someone would explane me this or name me the fullname. Thanks !



CFA = Color Filter Array


----------



## JimKarczewski (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

Could care less about a 6400ISO Max. For landscapes and portrait work, don't need it.

Hell, basketball I never shoot over ISO 320. It's either 320 or 160 but I strobe every basketball game, so this would be a backup to my backup.

My biggest beef with canon is completely unrelated to this body, it's with the 11-24/4. It better be one DAMN good piece of glass for the estimates of the price posted or I'm going to pick up a Nikon 14-24 with an adapter. 2.8 would had really been nice Canon. Really, especially if the lens is $3000


----------



## wockawocka (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

They're splitting the line to pull people from Nikon.


----------



## LukasS (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Jesse said:


> Ugh so I'm gonna have to buy two cameras this year? One for portraiture and one for events?
> 
> NOOOOOOOOOO


Well we both, but after 5 years with 5D classic I can say that this may be it .


----------



## Famateur (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



torger said:


> That's really interesting. A claimed advantage of medium format digital cameras have been that they have color-optimized CFAs rather than high ISO, it would be awesome if this sensor has taken the same type of optimization.



With 50MP, I wonder if this sensor (when it was in the field in prototype bodies) started the whole "Canon is getting into medium format" rumors. Sounds like this body gets you to medium format resolution and color, lacking only the depth of field.


----------



## jrista (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



c.d.embrey said:


> *Who makes the NEW Sensor * ??? The administrator over at *S*ony *A*lpha *R*umors is bleating that's it's *probably a Sony Sensor*.
> 
> Of course he's often wrong about claiming wishful thinking to be truth




I highly doubt it. It sounds like the new sensor has the same pixel pitch as the 7D II, and Canon has long been proud of their "fully integrated in house" approach. I'll believe it has a Sony sensor when someone tears it apart and actually finds a Sony sensor inside...and I personally believe hell will freeze over on that day.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



JimKarczewski said:


> Hell, basketball I never shoot over ISO 320. It's either 320 or 160 but I strobe every basketball game, so this would be a backup to my backup.



Really? Wow. As a person who gets ophthalmic migraines from bright camera flashes, the first thing I'd do as a basketball player in a game you're shooting is accidentally on purpose crash into your strobes.


----------



## V8Beast (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



PureClassA said:


> Given that THESE are the high MP bodies, how much better is the actual 5D4 going to be than the 5D3? A small to modest boost in MP? same 61 AF? 7-8 FPS? maybe 4k? It all depends on what you need. I suspect if you are very happy with a 5D3 now... a 5D4 won't add much to your plate. Buy the 5DS and keep the 5D3



Excellent point. I tend to buy bodies every other generation (I went from a 5DC to 5D3) and keep them for a very long time. My 5D3 is nearly three years old now, and I've said all along that I'm so happy with it that I'd most likely skip the 5D4 and wait for the 5D Mark 5. A modest bump in resolution, frame rate, or DR simply won't be enough to entice me to upgrade. 

On the other hand, there are some (but not many) shooting scenarios where a 5Ds-type body would be beneficial to me. Segmenting the 5D line at least has me considering purchasing such a body to complement my 5D3, whereas I had no intention of buying another body until reading the recent rumors.

Honestly, a set of Profoto B1 lights are much higher on my priority list than a 50 megapixel camera


----------



## jrista (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

So this is a camera optimized for low ISO performance. Canon is talking about stronger CFA and all of that....(which, given that for color depth above 24 bits is basically indiscernible to the human eye, is a total waste of time IMO. The only potential benefit MIGHT be lower color noise, if they are more finely restricting the colors through each CFA...but color noise would also be reduced if they would reduce their darn read noise.)


But once again...utter silence about read noise and dynamic range. This is, clearly, a Low ISO part from Canon. If they had resolved their low ISO read noise issues...one would think they would be proclaiming it to the heavens. Why the silence? :\


I don't want to lose the last little bit of hope I have in Canon...


----------



## fox40phil (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Famateur said:


> fox40phil said:
> 
> 
> > What does CFA mean? Would be nice if someone would explane me this or name me the fullname. Thanks !
> ...



thx !


----------



## Dylan777 (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Eldar said:


> Canon has not earned their long term position on top of this market by being stupid. So even though there are lots of information we still need to see about these cameras, I am confident that for all of us who want a high resolution, high DR, low noise body, we will get it this time. (By the way, I am sometimes regarded as a bit optimistic ...)
> 
> I believe/hope this body will be the perfect compliment to my 1DX, which I expect to keep for action, birds and wildlife. My 5DIII will be for sale some time during the weekend.



+1...for different reason on my end


----------



## mrsfotografie (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I can see that these camera's address a need for certain photographers, but I'm more interested to see what the Mk IV will bring. The 'S' looks like it has the body of the MkIII so it may not be a good example of what the MkIV will be like.


----------



## wsmith96 (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

Did I miss it? I didn't see if these cameras came with DPAF or not.


----------



## chromophore (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



jrista said:


> So this is a camera optimized for low ISO performance. Canon is talking about stronger CFA and all of that....(which, given that for color depth above 24 bits is basically indiscernible to the human eye, is a total waste of time IMO. The only potential benefit MIGHT be lower color noise, if they are more finely restricting the colors through each CFA...but color noise would also be reduced if they would reduce their darn read noise.)
> 
> 
> But once again...utter silence about read noise and dynamic range. This is, clearly, a Low ISO part from Canon. If they had resolved their low ISO read noise issues...one would think they would be proclaiming it to the heavens. Why the silence? :\
> ...



The point you make about the read noise being an overriding factor is a good one and I agree.

Given that the information provided thus far about the camera is very preliminary, and we know nothing about the technology in the sensor, much less seen any actual images from this camera, there are "glass half-empty" and "glass half-full" viewpoints:

Pessimist view: Increased color discrimination in this camera will be largely useless because Canon didn't improve the low ISO read noise. Canon did it because all they can do is implement incremental, tangential improvements in their sensor technology, and cannot compete against Sony.

Optimist view: Increased color discrimination in this camera was implemented precisely because Canon improved the low ISO read noise hence making the existing CFA performance inadequate, especially in post processing losses in color fidelity when bumping shadows by several stops.

Which one will turn out to be the case is unknowable at this time. But the answer will most definitely determine the success of this camera.


----------



## V8Beast (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



jrista said:


> But once again...utter silence about read noise and dynamic range. This is, clearly, a Low ISO part from Canon. If they had resolved their low ISO read noise issues...one would think they would be proclaiming it to the heavens. Why the silence? :\



Probably because Canon hasn't officially announced anything yet  Other than a small percentage of forum dwellers, if Canon bragged about reduced read noise, who would even understand what they're talking about? 

That said, I too find it a bit peculiar that everyone is so seduced by the megapixel count of this machine that the whole DR issue has flown under the radar thus far. I didn't think we'd ever see that day on Canon Rumors ;D 

Hell, both dilbert *and* psolberg responded in the other thread, and the discussion still hasn't devolved into a DR pissing match


----------



## Perio (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

Guys, please pardon my ignorance but I'd like to clarify the ISO question. If Canon 5ds has Sony sensor and let's say you shoot at ISO 3200, would you be able to push shadows 1-2 stops in post-processing like for D810? In this case, would ISO 3200 be kind of equivalent to ISO 6400-12800? Sorry for my very naive description of what I wanted to ask. 

Another question is, do you guys think there's any chance 5Ds would come with integrated non-detachable grip, like 1D series? 

Thanks!


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Perio said:


> Guys, please pardon my ignorance but I'd like to clarify the ISO question. If Canon 5ds has Sony sensor and let's say you shoot at ISO 3200, would you be able to push shadows 1-2 stops in post-processing like for D810? In this case, would ISO 3200 be kind of equivalent to ISO 6400-12800? Sorry for my very naive description of what I wanted to ask.



Pushing doesn't just push the shadows, it pushes everything. Canon sensors are already as good as the rest once you're at ISO 400-800 and above so no difference there.


> Another question is, do you guys think there's any chance 5Ds would come with integrated non-detachable grip, like 1D series?



I sure hope not, and I doubt it.


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Perio said:


> Guys, please pardon my ignorance but I'd like to clarify the ISO question. If Canon 5ds has Sony sensor and let's say you shoot at ISO 3200, would you be able to push shadows 1-2 stops in post-processing like for D810? In this case, would ISO 3200 be kind of equivalent to ISO 6400-12800? Sorry for my very naive description of what I wanted to ask.
> 
> Another question is, do you guys think there's any chance 5Ds would come with integrated non-detachable grip, like 1D series?
> 
> Thanks!


The true native ISO range of the D800 is 100-1600. The "native" ISO range up to 6400 is actually not native ISO and is a lie by Nikon to an extent. In practice, the rear noise is so clean, they could push it to ISO 12,800 from ISO 1600 and still have nice images.

If Canon's 5Ds is truly native to ISO 6400, AND they reduced the read noise, then it should be pretty good at ISO 12,800.

On a side note, it is worth mentioning that 50+MP means we are seeing the different color channels of the Bayer array actually begin to reach much better levels. The 20-22 MP sensors only produce a fraction of that resolution in the Red color channel.


----------



## LukasS (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Perio said:


> Another question is, do you guys think there's any chance 5Ds would come with integrated non-detachable grip, like 1D series?



They might, considering doubling pixel count (i think) would result in more energy consumption.


----------



## lintoni (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



V8Beast said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > But once again...utter silence about read noise and dynamic range. This is, clearly, a Low ISO part from Canon. If they had resolved their low ISO read noise issues...one would think they would be proclaiming it to the heavens. Why the silence? :\
> ...


Because the camera(s) are yet to be released? Because nobody has seen any images from the camera(s)?


----------



## davidcl0nel (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

As a landscape/cityscape-photographer... I would like to have ISO 10 (yes ten!) much more than ISO 100.000 ...


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



davidcl0nel said:


> As a landscape/cityscape-photographer... I would like to have ISO 10 (yes ten!) much more than ISO 100.000 ...


You can put filters on a camera for that effect mostly. It's kinda hard to put filters on that increase ISO sensitivity. 

Nighttime landscape photography is pretty big these days. It's no longer valid to put "landscapes" and "low ISO" in the same exclusive category. Landscapers are using every ISO from 100-12,800 these days. That's just a solid fact.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



PhotographyFirst said:


> On a side note, it is worth mentioning that 50+MP means we are seeing the different color channels of the Bayer array actually begin to reach much better levels. The 20-22 MP sensors only produce a fraction of that resolution in the Red color channel.



Ugh? Not saying that you're wrong, but if the 50mp sensor is (more or less) an upscaled crop, you're stating tat a crop sensor has better red resolution? I ask because at least with my 60d, I see the exact reverse effect vs. 6d.


----------



## davidcl0nel (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



PhotographyFirst said:


> You can put filters on a camera for that effect mostly.



Sure... 

And I can use an external intervalometer or bulb meter. (30sek is crap!!, why this limit, its only software)
But if its in the main firmware (I often use these features with ML! Its great.), why not?
Same with Lowest ISO. You don't have to use it, but it can help.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



jrista said:


> But once again...utter silence about read noise and dynamic range. This is, clearly, a Low ISO part from Canon. If they had resolved their low ISO read noise issues...one would think they would be proclaiming it to the heavens. Why the silence? :\



Isn't it obvious? In an announcement, you mention the strengths (i.e. more metapixies) and not the status quo (good read noise on 6d) or weaknesses (less dr vs. exmor). 

However, I still think that a high-res camera is made for settings with controlled light or situations when you can bracket anyway ... maybe they'll go for more dr on the 5d4, if they further advance on higher iso it'd be great for action photogs.


----------



## V8Beast (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



lintoni said:


> V8Beast said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Since when has that stopped people from debating over DR?


----------



## gmon750 (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I bought the Mark III back in July. I though Canon would stick to the 4-year upgrade cycle for this camera. I was about to drop some serious change for an underwater housing and now that is on hold until I see what the Mark IV has.

I'm not a fan of crazy-high megapixels if it detracts from the advantages of having bigger individual pixels to collect more light.

As a diver, I have to choose my gear carefully. Those housings get crazy expensive. I hope the 5DM4 has the same body/button layout then I would consider keeping my Mark III as well.

Crossing fingers to see what Canon comes up with!


----------



## Mitch.Conner (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I wonder if the narrow ISO range and high MP will mean Canon will finally come out with an image stabilized version of either the 24-70 f/2.8 or an f/2.8 version of the 24-105 IS L


----------



## CaptureWhatYouSee (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I am looking for a landscape and travel type of camera with these specs. But I want GPS, and I think most people would for such a camera. Not for a studio camera though....


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



CaptureWhatYouSee said:


> I am looking for a landscape and travel type of camera with these specs. But I want GPS, and I think most people would for such a camera. Not for a studio camera though....



Do you have a smart phone, especially one that already has Google Maps on it? If so, you really don't even need GPS.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



chromophore said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > So this is a camera optimized for low ISO performance. Canon is talking about stronger CFA and all of that....(which, given that for color depth above 24 bits is basically indiscernible to the human eye, is a total waste of time IMO. The only potential benefit MIGHT be lower color noise, if they are more finely restricting the colors through each CFA...but color noise would also be reduced if they would reduce their darn read noise.)
> ...



I don't agree with that last point, except perhaps as it pertains to CR Forum members. I suspect that the majority of 5DIII/D8x0/a7R owners don't know what "CFA" stands for, and only know the difference between luminance and chrominance noise because there are separate sliders for them in Lightroom.


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



CaptureWhatYouSee said:


> I am looking for a landscape and travel type of camera with these specs. But I want GPS, and I think most people would for such a camera. Not for a studio camera though....


The GPS cameras don't have maps or any type of guidance system. They just record your spot.

A dedicated GPS or smartphone is far more useful and you can use one of those super complex notepads and pencils to note which shots were taken where. 

If there was every any feature that could be considered a gimick, it is the camera GPS. My 6D is pretty useless in that regard. The wifi on the other hand proves to be very helpful in some situations.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Lee Jay said:


> CaptureWhatYouSee said:
> 
> 
> > I am looking for a landscape and travel type of camera with these specs. But I want GPS, and I think most people would for such a camera. Not for a studio camera though....
> ...



+1 I don't do lots of landscape, but I also don't understand this "gotta have it" obsession with built in GPS. I'm sure there are some folks who live and die by it, but I can't imagine it's so prolific a need that Canon just simply ignored it without good reason. I'll take 50MP and not whine an ounce about GPS. I've never used it or Wifi on my 6D. If I'm going to shoot to a computer for studio work, I'd prefer the hard line of a 15ft USB tether cable.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



PhotographyFirst said:


> CaptureWhatYouSee said:
> 
> 
> > I am looking for a landscape and travel type of camera with these specs. But I want GPS, and I think most people would for such a camera. Not for a studio camera though....
> ...



You don't need a notepad for that. Time sync your camera's images to accurate time and the GPS data recorded by the phone can be easily matched up. Lightroom has all the necessary feature for this.

Last trip I took a picture of my watch (which sync's itself to WWV every day) but a cell phone using the timeanddate website will work too. Then I adjusted all my pictures to that picture in Lightroom (it's one, simple operation). Then I downloaded the KMZ file of each day of my trip from Google's location history website. Then I used a free web site to change those into .gpx files which I loaded into the Lightroom Map module. Whamo! All my pictures are properly geocoded (well, except for those taken where there was no GPS or cell signal - I did those by hand).


----------



## Fotofanten (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I wonder what (highly speculative) conclusions can be drawn based on these rumors, with regards to the next iteration of the 6D. I personally hope they ditch the metal alloy in the body in favour of something lighter like polycarbonate or carbon fibre, and improve the weather sealing. A ultra light, affordable landscape beast with minimal frills. For hiking landscape photographers I would argue that *grams *is the most important specification, right after file quality. ISO 25 or less with no DR punishment would be awesome too.


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Fotofanten said:


> I wonder what (highly speculative) conclusions can be drawn based on these rumors, with regards to the next iteration of the 6D. I personally hope they ditch the metal alloy in the body in favour of something lighter like polycarbonate or carbon fibre, and improve the weather sealing. A ultra light, affordable landscape beast with minimal frills. For hiking landscape photographers I would argue that *grams *is the most important specification, right after file quality. ISO 25 or less with no DR punishment would be awesome too.


Agreed. Magnesium Alloy has horrible heat transfer properties. I hate using mag cameras in the cold and when moving indoors from the cold. It condenses quicker for some reason. It is also very cold to handle outdoor in freezing temps. Even a Rebel plastic has vastly more protection than is needed for a landscape and studio camera. 

The Canon marketing department would shoot it down though, because Mag Alloy is highly valued in spec sheets, even if it does or does not proved any advantage. 

I have tons is experience with Mag Allow components in downhill mountain bikes. Impact resistance is the very last thing that goes into the decision to use Mag Alloy for parts. It is stiff and light, but far from having any great impact resistant properties.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



PureClassA said:


> +1 I don't do lots of landscape, but I also don't understand this "gotta have it" obsession with built in GPS.



I see the limitations of my 6d's gps and the advantages of an external solution, but it unexpectedly has grown on my because it's so darn convenient. Unlike wifi, I wonder if it's really that hard to put the tiny gps receiver into the 5ds or if the decision is mostly driven by marketing.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I hear ya. point was that we have countless, endless threads on "More MP" and "More DR" ... no one (or very very few) is screaming "More GPS!"


----------



## AshtonNekolah (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



PhotographyFirst said:


> I can't seem to find the logic as to why people complain about certain things.
> 
> We have options for everyone. Why is it when a new option comes along people act like they are being forced to buy it at gunpoint for something it is not intended?
> 
> ...



I fully agree, that's why I just focus on the important things in life, its just to dam short to waste it on bit*** and complaining. I never saw yet or heard of any judges asking what camera took this shot before deciding on which images is a winner. 

Looks like to me that people are more into the hardware instead of mastering what they got and make it work, technology from 8 years ago is way more advance than 50 years ago, and even thou having the latest and greatest is nice, it will never make you take better pictures. I heard from somewhere that cameras don't take pictures people do.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



PureClassA said:


> I hear ya. point was that we have countless, endless threads on "More MP" and "More DR" ... no one (or very very few) is screaming "More GPS!"



It doesn't matter who screams at what noise level, it's the accumulated customers' decision making that matters. Even the most verbose advocates of this or that only buy one camera at a time.

And while of course the "core" specs are the most discussed in an enthusiasts' forum ("If I'd have more mp/dr, I'd be a good photog") I'd speculate that a bunch of handy features is as important for the mass market business aspect.


----------



## JonAustin (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Mitch.Conner said:


> I wonder if the narrow ISO range and high MP will mean Canon will finally come out with an image stabilized version of either the 24-70 f/2.8 or an f/2.8 version of the 24-105 IS L



Yes, bring it! (Either one.)


----------



## JonAustin (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Marsu42 said:


> I see the limitations of my 6d's gps and the advantages of an external solution, but it unexpectedly has grown on my because it's so darn convenient. Unlike wifi, I wonder if it's really that hard to put the tiny gps receiver into the 5ds or if the decision is mostly driven by marketing.



For all we know, a GPS receiver is present on the 5DIII mainboard, but just not implemented (no antenna / operational firmware / menu options). I'm not saying it is, but it could be. Lots of electronic products with good / better / best models are built around identical mainboards (and, often, identical enclosures), and vary only in model identification, price and which features are implemented in firmware / software.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



JonAustin said:


> For all we know, a GPS receiver is present on the 5DIII mainboard, but just not implemented (no antenna / operational firmware / menu options). I'm not saying it is, but it could be.



Great conspiracy theory worthy of this forum, keep 'em coming 



JonAustin said:


> Mitch.Conner said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if the narrow ISO range and high MP will mean Canon will finally come out with an image stabilized version of either the 24-70 f/2.8 or an f/2.8 version of the 24-105 IS L
> ...



"Shut up and take my money" anyone ?


----------



## Famateur (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



fox40phil said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > fox40phil said:
> ...



No prob.


----------



## Don Haines (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



JonAustin said:


> For all we know, a GPS receiver is present on the 5DIII mainboard, but just not implemented (no antenna / operational firmware / menu options). I'm not saying it is, but it could be.


[/quote]

Many times, GPS receivers and/or WiFi cards are tiny (1 square cm) boards that plug into the main board. It allows you to have 1 design that can be used without radio (leave card out) or for different areas where different frequencies are licensed.... so for all we know, the slot might already be there... (but I doubt it)


----------



## Famateur (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Marsu42 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > But once again...*utter silence* about read noise and dynamic range. This is, clearly, a Low ISO part from Canon. If they had resolved their low ISO read noise issues...one would think they would be proclaiming it to the heavens. Why the silence? :\
> ...



What announcement?


----------



## Famateur (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



V8Beast said:


> ...I too find it a bit peculiar that everyone is so seduced by the megapixel count of this machine that the whole DR issue has flown under the radar thus far...The discussion still hasn't devolved into a DR pissing match



My guess is that it has something to do with the rumor that it's a Sony sensor, bringing with it an assumption of high performance in the dynamic range department.

Give it time. Once the sensor is proven to be of Canon origin, the DR battles will resume.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Famateur said:


> Give it time. Once the sensor is proven to be of Canon origin, the DR battles will resume.



I'm looking forward to the first samples of the 50mp sensor, I'm confident these 0.5mp web-sized to max. 5mp "very large" images will look _totally different_ than from the ancient ~20mp sensors  ...

... except for shots with blown whites, because clipping keeps being clipped no matter how you downscale, denoise or crop it. Let the dynamic range wars begin anew, the king is dead, long live the king!


----------



## Diltiazem (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Famateur said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



;D


----------



## Famateur (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Marsu42 said:


> ... except for shots with blown whites, because clipping keeps being clipped no matter how you downscale, denoise or crop it.



Must you insist on repeatedly bringing reality into this discussion?


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Lee Jay said:


> JimKarczewski said:
> 
> 
> > Hell, basketball I never shoot over ISO 320. It's either 320 or 160 but I strobe every basketball game, so this would be a backup to my backup.
> ...



Since he used the term strobe and not flash, how do you know he isn't referring to the high above ceiling strobes that they have at pro arenas and at the bigger NCAA D1 schools?


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



chromophore said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > So this is a camera optimized for low ISO performance. Canon is talking about stronger CFA and all of that....(which, given that for color depth above 24 bits is basically indiscernible to the human eye, is a total waste of time IMO. The only potential benefit MIGHT be lower color noise, if they are more finely restricting the colors through each CFA...but color noise would also be reduced if they would reduce their darn read noise.)
> ...



+1


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > JimKarczewski said:
> ...



I was assuming it was something like Elinchroms on stands or similar since he said he strobes them rather than using the house strobes (which are now banned in many places, and always unnecessary).


----------



## Mitch.Conner (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Marsu42 said:


> JonAustin said:
> 
> 
> > Mitch.Conner said:
> ...



I'm hoping we'll see it this year. I seriously don't care how much it weighs.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Famateur said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > ... except for shots with blown whites, because clipping keeps being clipped no matter how you downscale, denoise or crop it.
> ...



Yes, because I use ML's dual_iso fro 14+ ev dr all the time and have settled for the fact that indeed ~20mp is fine for what I do ... so Canon releasing a 50mp sensor makes my head all fuzzy and I have to do a reality check


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Marsu42 said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



Nailed it. I keep wondering when Canon will bust that feature out in native firmware rather than a Magic Lantern hack. dPAF seems ideal for it. Maybe in the 5D4


----------



## JonoRees (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

A lot of great points in the thread.

Have a agree with a couple of points inbuilt GPS on a camera such as these is a bit redundant. When I need GPS the good old Sunnto Ambit2 does the business, with easy GPX exports. used this in my 2 month trip to india... perfect.

Even if they leave wifi out of the body, can they add them to a decent grip that actually works well...

I had seriously been considering moving to the sony mirrorless systems, but its great to see that canon are at least developing and releasing cameras this year.

Have upgraded to a 5dmiii when it was released and the thing I miss the most is the 1d series controls and don't think I am the only one.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



JonoRees said:


> Have upgraded to a 5dmiii when it was released and the thing I miss the most is the 1d series controls and don't think I am the only one.



The biggest reason I've never seriously considered a 1 series body is ergonomics.


----------



## Famateur (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



PureClassA said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Famateur said:
> ...



I'd love to see this, too. Good for the guys (and gals?) at Magic Lantern for pushing the capabilities of the Canon system to new levels. Might light a fire for Canon...

And thanks, Marsu, for touting ML so often. There are probably a number of members here who heard about it first from your posts...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Lee Jay said:


> JonoRees said:
> 
> 
> > Have upgraded to a 5dmiii when it was released and the thing I miss the most is the 1d series controls and don't think I am the only one.
> ...



The biggest reason I'm not personally excited about a 5-series high MP body is ergonomics.


----------



## Perio (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



neuroanatomist said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > JonoRees said:
> ...



Same here. I loved 5d series with and without grip till I got 1dx via Canon loan program. OMG, it's day and night at least for me. 1dx is so much more comfortable and honestly feels lighter than 5d+grip. Even my gf was holding 1dx+200 2.0 quite easily, and she is not athletic at all.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Perio said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



I never use a grip and will never purchase a body with a non removable grip. I have small hands and the 1 series grips are so thick that with my hand in the proper comfortable place my index finger doesn't reach the shutter release. With my index finger on the shutter release the camera is supported only by the tips of my fingers and thumb.

Only the Alphas are worse.

My 5D fits my hand perfectly.


----------



## Eldar (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Lee Jay said:


> Perio said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


Lucky me, I like both


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I really love the ergonomics of ALL the Canon bodies. But like anything, there is a learning curve. I read a lot of comments about weight and size and such, but to me, none of that has ever bothered me. Loved the 7D. Loved the 6D (although wish it had a bit more to it, but it's a base model, so ...OK) and I love the 5D3. I've seen a few remarks where people claim to prefer the "size" of the 6D over the 5 series...but honestly I don't get it. The difference between the two seems pretty insignificant to me. Now going from a Rebel t2i to a 7D .... ok, THAT was a wake-up call. But once you're in the pro bodies, I can't tell much difference except for the 1DX which I also love shooting. I shot a 1DX non-stop for 3.5 hours at a time, 4 times over one weekend for 4 huge dance recitals with the 70-200 IS 2 strapped to it. My upper body was whipped but shooting literally 8000 frames for that long, I would have been just as whipped with a 7D, a 5D, or a 6D. Plus...the 1DX just looks like a bad ass. I'll be first in line for a new 1DX2 this year. Weight and size be damned. Get the best camera you NEED for your type of work. If it's too heavy, I'd respectfully suggest the gym and develop good PHYSICAL technique and body posture for long shoots. Straight back, use your legs and core to stabilize your center of gravity, relax your upper body completely. I know it sounds a bit silly, but I practice and teach martial arts too, so that sort of talk is gospel for us. It translates extremely well into fast paced sports photography.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



PureClassA said:


> I really love the ergonomics of ALL the Canon bodies. But like anything, there is a learning curve. I read a lot of comments about weight and size and such, but to me, none of that has ever bothered me. Loved the 7D. Loved the 6D (although wish it had a bit more to it, but it's a base model, so ...OK) and I love the 5D3. I've seen a few remarks where people claim to prefer the "size" of the 6D over the 5 series...but honestly I don't get it. The difference between the two seems pretty insignificant to me. Now going from a Rebel t2i to a 7D .... ok, THAT was a wake-up call. But once you're in the pro bodies, I can't tell much difference except for the 1DX which I also love shooting. I shot a 1DX non-stop for 3.5 hours at a time, 4 times over one weekend for 4 huge dance recitals with the 70-200 IS 2 strapped to it. My upper body was whipped but shooting literally 8000 frames for that long, I would have been just as whipped with a 7D, a 5D, or a 6D. Plus...the 1DX just looks like a bad ass. I'll be first in line for a new 1DX2 this year. Weight and size be damned. Get the best camera you NEED for your type of work. If it's too heavy, I'd respectfully suggest the gym and develop good PHYSICAL technique and body posture for long shoots. Straight back, use your legs and core to stabilize your center of gravity, relax your upper body completely. I know it sounds a bit silly, but I practice and teach martial arts too, so that sort of talk is gospel for us. It translates extremely well into fast paced sports photography.



It's not too heavy, it's too big. I regularly shoot with a 20D+70-200/2.8 and 5D+24-105L, both with 580EX's attached, simultaneously for as long as 12 straight hours while also carrying 3 other lenses and accessories in a waist pouch. The problem with the 1D cameras for me is that the grip is too thick. Well, that and I can't remove the useless (for me) portrait grip. It's just in the way.

I realize this is mostly because I have little hands. But the 5D series fits perfectly.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I gotcha. Yeah the grips do get a bit bigger on the DX. Maybe the next model will deepen the finger molds on the grip so it wont be as bad. It is a japanese company. Not like those folks are known for having large hands  ;D


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



PureClassA said:


> I gotcha. Yeah the grips do get a bit bigger on the DX. Maybe the next model will deepen the finger molds on the grip so it wont be as bad. It is a japanese company. Not like those folks are known for having large hands  ;D



No, but my hands are really small.

It's strange to me that the 5D series fits many people. I'd think the fact that it fits me so perfectly would mean that it would be too small for most, the way my Rebel 550D/T2i is too small for me.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Lee Jay said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > I gotcha. Yeah the grips do get a bit bigger on the DX. Maybe the next model will deepen the finger molds on the grip so it wont be as bad. It is a japanese company. Not like those folks are known for having large hands  ;D
> ...



I bought the battery grips from Vello for both my 6 and my 7. Love them. I don't have big hands either, probably about average or slightly less than for a guy I suppose, but I love the feel of the DX. THAT SAID. What I would LOVE to see (and it probably won't happen) is to see a new DX with the vertical grip being removable. They would have to employ smaller batteries that fit directly into the chassis like all the other models. Todays battery technology I would think could allow for that. Maybe not. But the bottom grip for me isn't a problem of size... it can sometimes get in the way of making a shot.

When shooting dancers during classes I'm on the floor quite a bit. The 1DX grip lifts the lens and sensor too far off the floor for some of the shots. The 6D however, with the extra grip removed, sits perfectly on the floor with a lens all by itself, and I can get things like this:

So yeah, give me a 1DX2 that comes with a removable vertical grip if they can solve the battery issue. I suspect a lot of folks would really appreciate that option.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

Sorry, this is the one I meant to grab. Horizontal framing with body on the floor. COuldn't make this shoot with a bottom grip.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



PureClassA said:


> I gotcha. Yeah the grips do get a bit bigger on the DX.



I find the accessory grips to be bulkier and less comfortable to hold than the 1-series. Balance is more important to me than weight, and the grip balances most L-series lenses better, meaning my hands don't get sore after a day of shooting. There's always flex between the body and an accessory grip, that can be an issue for tripod use (and swapping the grip off/on isn't very practical), so I far prefer the integrated design. But it's definitely a personal preference.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



neuroanatomist said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > I gotcha. Yeah the grips do get a bit bigger on the DX.
> ...



Great valid points as well. But I wonder if a 1DX2 with a removable grip (wild dreams here), could not better integrate the joint from grip to body so that flex would not be so. But I know what you mean. I've tripod mounted bodies with separate grips attached and it certainly doesn't that same feel of stability as without or with a DX. However, it's never presented a problem. I probably shoot a lot more often with the extra grip ON my 6D and 7D than off because I like the balance better, as you do. Particularly with the Sigma 50 ART and the 70-200 IS2. But it's nice to be able to take them off to snag shots from the floor.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



neuroanatomist said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > I gotcha. Yeah the grips do get a bit bigger on the DX.
> ...



That's a problem with the design, not a problem with integration versus separate. The 1 series bodies should be designed like the 1V/1VHS.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Lee Jay said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > PureClassA said:
> ...



Have you ever used a 1VHS? I have two here.

There is flex between the grip and body when using the tripod socket of the grip. Also the design is necessarily bigger and heavier than necessary for an all in one design, you have to have two bottom plates strong enough to take the tripod sockets and the grip needs a top plate.

It is a nice idea in theory, in practice, even the 1 series designs fall short in application as to make it 'better' would necessitate even more weight and space in materials.


----------



## jrista (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



V8Beast said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > But once again...utter silence about read noise and dynamic range. This is, clearly, a Low ISO part from Canon. If they had resolved their low ISO read noise issues...one would think they would be proclaiming it to the heavens. Why the silence? :\
> ...




I think the notion that what, over 90% of Canon users DON'T understand, at the very least, that more _tttmnbso*_ is better, is a gravely mistaken notion. Canon doesn't have to use the term "read noise", all they have to do is say that they have "Significantly improved low ISO dynamic range", and EVERYONE will know what they are talking about. People don't even have to actually know what _tttmnbso*_ is. But a significant number of the types of people who actually do buy "higher end" DSLRs, like the 5D III, D810, 1D X, D4, A7r/s, etc. are going to know at the very least that "more _tttmnbso*_ is better", and many are also going to know what _tttmnbso*_ actually is. These are pro-grade cameras were talking about, not your consumer-grade rebel.  


I use the term read noise because *that*, specifically, is what's holding Canon's _tttmnbso*_ back. Plus, I know most regular people here, because of the endless petty wars, (and hopefully because of some of my past posts on the topic of read noise specifically), know what read noise is as well.  There are other things that can be done to improve _tttmnbso*_, but Canon is already doing them. Bigger pixels, less dark current, etc. They need to reduce their read noise, and they will immediately start realizing the benefits of it. (And I don't just mean shadow benefits...noise is additive:



```
SNR = S/SQRT(S + D + R^2)
```


Where S = signal, D = dark current, and R = read noise. Reduced SNR affects the entire signal.) But from a marketing standpoint, Canon just has to say "Improved dynamic range", and people will generally understand. Even those who don't actually know what it is, and only know that "more _tttmnbso*_ is better". 


Anyway, not here to start a war (although I'm sure there are a few who just won't be able to resist trying to start one off this post). All I'm here to say is, I think people are smarter than a certain forum group is willing to give them credit for, particularly the types that are buying big high end cameras like the 5D series. 


Personally, I'm VERY glad to hear Canon has created a new line of camera that is, at least supposedly, going to focus on LOW ISO performance. That's the first somewhat exciting news I've heard from Canon in...a very long time now. (I was really hoping this announcement would involve their BSI layered sensor technology...but, sounds like not. If it had...I'd have been quite excited.) The 7D II has made a bit of news in the astro world...but testing is already starting to show that the NX1 could very well best it in that arena as well (read noise on the NX1 may be as low as 0.9e- at ISO 1600...which would mean it has the lowest read noise of any current camera on the market, even lower than Exmor... ), but the A7s is quickly shaping up to be one of the biggest light-sucking fiends we've ever seen.  


Still, I am glad to hear that Canon has at least shifted some resources to focus on the low ISO end of the spectrum, after some eight years or so focusing pretty exclusively on the high ISO and action end of the spectrum. I just hope they have done the ONE SINGLE thing that will actually improve their low ISO performance: reduce read noise. They have already done everything else. The 7D has 59% Q.E....I don't expect the 5Ds cameras to come in at 41-49% again. They already have the phenomenal focus and metering system (iTR). They already have very good CDS. They already have some of the lowest dark current in the industry. They have already addressed everything else...so that leaves read noise. If they don't do something about that, then it doesn't matter how much Canon improves color purity or how much they limit high ISO settings...they still won't stand a chance against the D810 or any of the MFD cameras using Sony's 50mp MF sensor. As this is a studio camera...I'll be dumbfounded if they don't...but...faith waned a long time ago. :-\ 


_*_ *TTTMNBSO*: The term that must not be spoken of


----------



## jrista (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



chromophore said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > So this is a camera optimized for low ISO performance. Canon is talking about stronger CFA and all of that....(which, given that for color depth above 24 bits is basically indiscernible to the human eye, is a total waste of time IMO. The only potential benefit MIGHT be lower color noise, if they are more finely restricting the colors through each CFA...but color noise would also be reduced if they would reduce their darn read noise.)
> ...




I agree, stronger CFA won't improve the perceived color quality. Not, at least, unstretched RAW images. It could improve color noise, which would affect the color quality of the shadows.



Improved color discrimination should reduce color crosstalk, which should reduce color noise. Color noise is an issue Canon cameras have had for a while, and it got worse when Canon weakened their CFA with the release of the 1D X. Strengthening the CFA may be doing nothing more than restoring it to what it was before the 1D X, I dunno. Regardless, the fact that Canon is doing anything that could reduce color noise is a good thing. I don't know if reducing color noise will improve _tttmnbso*_...I kind of doubt it, not if other sources of noise remain high. The primary source of Canon read noise is downstream. I don't think their per-pixel amplifiers add much noise, and their CDS units at each column are very good. I think it's the downstream amp and the ADC units that add most of the read noise.


Based on research I've found on future innovations for CMOS sensors, integration of the ADC into the sensor is a big step towards reducing read noise. Most other manufacturers have at least moved to some kind of highly parallel on-die ADC. Current research involves embedding ADC units into each pixel (well, currently, into each group of four pixels), which reduces read noise even further. I'm hoping Canon moved to an on-die ADC system (which they do have patents for). We won't be seeing any kind of per-pixel ADC any time soon, and I don't think we will until they figure out how to get CDS embedded into the pixels as well (currently CDS is per-column). 


_* *TTTMNBSO*_: The term that must not be spoken of


----------



## jrista (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Marsu42 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > But once again...utter silence about read noise and dynamic range. This is, clearly, a Low ISO part from Canon. If they had resolved their low ISO read noise issues...one would think they would be proclaiming it to the heavens. Why the silence? :\
> ...




I don't think the 6D has good read noise. Not trying to pick a fight...I just think that's a fact. The 6D doesn't really have much of an improvement in read noise over any other Canon camera. Nor does the 7D II. Characteristically, it's slightly "prettier" read noise, but it's still _high_. It's the level of RN that affects _tttmnbso*_, not how pretty it is.

At ISO 100, the 6D has ~27e-, vs. the 5D III's ~33e-. That's compared to the ~3-6e- common on most Exmor cameras, the <3e- on Toshiba sensors, etc. 

Further, comparing the 6D/7D II to prior cameras...the primary improvement in those cameras over their predecessors was not so much read noise as it was dark current. The 5D III had a decent improvement in dark current noise over the 5D II. The 6D had a fairly huge improvement in dark current noise over the 5D III. The 7D II had an even bigger improvement in dark current noise over the 6D. The cleaner high ISO performance of the 6D and 7D II is thanks to the reductions in dark current as much, if not more so, than the minor reductions in read noise. The other improvement was banding...but that is just a characteristic change, it doesn't actually improve _tttmnbso*_. Canon's current sensor tech actually has lower dark current than the Toshiba sensors, and is on par, maybe even a bit lower than, Sony's sensors. Not sure yet about the NX1...but that sensor is shaping up pretty darn nicely as well.


I am not trying to be rude or inflammatory. These are just the cold hard facts, based on measurements. This isn't a perception thing or a feelings thing (not saying that perceptions are bad, just less concrete). The 5Ds line is a studio camera line. It's a low ISO performance line, at least as spoken of in the rumors (but with the "s", I'd say officially as well). I think the very high read noise of Canon's DSLRs at ISO 100 matters more to these cameras than any prior Canon camera. I can sort of understand people getting irate over _tttmnbso*_ debates in the past. But, this has explicitly been stated as a low ISO performance camera...when would _tttmnbso*_ matter more?



Marsu42 said:


> However, I still think that a high-res camera is made for settings with controlled light or situations when you can bracket anyway ... maybe they'll go for more dr on the 5d4, if they further advance on higher iso it'd be great for action photogs.




I'd argue that high res cameras are not made for one single purpose. Certainly studio photography with flash or other artificial lighting is one of those use cases. But it is also just as certainly not the only one. Without a doubt weddings is going to be a huge use case, and with all the articles from Nikon wedding photographers talking about the ability to shoot without flash (which is often a critical thing for wedding photographers, as flash can be disruptive to ceremony and whatnot), low noise in general is a bonus for a camera like this. With the explosion of landscape photography in recent years, as well as all the die-hard LF film photographers who previously refused to leave their field cameras and Velvia 50 finally moving to the D810 and A7r, I would offer that the landscape photography could even be a bigger use case for a 5Ds/s R than studio photography. 

Landscapes, just as much as weddings, can definitely use more tttmnbso. I'd buy the 5Ds R if it had fourteen stops of low noise goodness...and give me all the megapickles you can.


_* *TTTMNBSO*: _The term that must not be spoken of


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



jrista said:


> But, this has explicitly been stated as a low ISO performance camera...



Where? It hasn't even been announced yet!



> ...and with all the articles from Nikon wedding photographers talking about the ability to shoot without flash (which is often a critical thing for wedding photographers, as flash can be disruptive to ceremony and whatnot), low noise in general is a bonus for a camera like this.



Low noise, yes, but do you know how many base ISO shots I generally take at weddings? Almost none. Most are ISO 800 and up, and that's where losing a stop to stronger filtering in the CFA will be a huge loss of performance.


----------



## jrista (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



Lee Jay said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > But, this has explicitly been stated as a low ISO performance camera...
> ...




In the rumor itself. Also implied by the "s" in the camera model name.



Lee Jay said:


> > ...and with all the articles from Nikon wedding photographers talking about the ability to shoot without flash (which is often a critical thing for wedding photographers, as flash can be disruptive to ceremony and whatnot), low noise in general is a bonus for a camera like this.
> 
> 
> 
> Low noise, yes, but do you know how many base ISO shots I generally take at weddings? Almost none. Most are ISO 800 and up, and that's where losing a stop to stronger filtering in the CFA will be a huge loss of performance.




Well, I guess it's a darn good thing you already have Canon cameras that perform great at high ISO then. :


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



jrista said:


> ...so that leaves read noise. If they don't do something about that, then it doesn't matter how much Canon improves color purity or how much they limit high ISO settings...they still won't stand a chance against the D810 or any of the MFD cameras using Sony's 50mp MF sensor.



Lol. The 5Ds won't stand a chance against MFD cameras...with their industry-wide annual sales of less than 10,000 units? Ummmm...sure. Or maybe you meant 'won't stand a chance' _of getting a higher DxOMark Score_, and about that you're correct. But so what?


----------



## jrista (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



neuroanatomist said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > ...so that leaves read noise. If they don't do something about that, then it doesn't matter how much Canon improves color purity or how much they limit high ISO settings...they still won't stand a chance against the D810 or any of the MFD cameras using Sony's 50mp MF sensor.
> ...




"Won't stand a chance " *in terms of image quality.* God, the amount of excessive qualification required here is unbelievable. Time to go back to my astrophotography forums where people are smart enough to get the implications without it all having to be spelled out. :


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



jrista said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Maybe on your astro forums they enjoy reading statements as blatantly obvious as, "Canon sensors have high read noise at low ISO,"...head over and post, "Stars are hot," why don't you? Then toss out some insults while you're at it, I'm sure all those smart folks love that. 

Sheesh. :


----------



## Tinky (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



privatebydesign said:


> Have you ever used a 1VHS? I have two here.
> 
> There is flex between the grip and body when using the tripod socket of the grip. Also the design is necessarily bigger and heavier than necessary for an all in one design, you have to have two bottom plates strong enough to take the tripod sockets and the grip needs a top plate.
> 
> It is a nice idea in theory, in practice, even the 1 series designs fall short in application as to make it 'better' would necessitate even more weight and space in materials.



I have a 3 with a bg2. I know it's not quite the one build but it is fairly solid, every eos I've had with a grip has been slightly creaky, and the BG-E7 went hari kari and tried to take the 7 with it. I barely use grips these days unless I know I'm specifically going to be shooting action in portrait orientation.

I could live without the bulk of an integrated design 95% of the time.


----------



## jhpeterson (Feb 1, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I, for one, am disappointed in the camera. I was still hoping for a flagship model, constructed along the lines of the 1D series. As one who works on the ocean for a significant part of the year, I need a camera that's pretty robust and able to ward off a lot of spray and salt. My experience has shown that, unless it's a 1D model, all the claims about it being weather sealed... well, they just don't hold water.

And I've never been impressed with that top dial either, going back to the days of the A2. (I broke at least two.) Nor do I wish for a model that needs a battery grip if I want to get off more than five or six hundred shots. Times being what they are, when even consumer cameras can shoot at ISOs of 25600 and beyond, it would be nice if the range went beyond 6400. And, I kind of like the way the controls on the 1Ds are layed out....


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## xps (Feb 1, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

http://www.canonwatch.com/cw5-image-specs-canon-5ds-5ds-r-leaked-50mp-sensor/

They wrote:



UPDATE

I got some more tidbits about the specs (thanks). Here is the new specification list (lines in bold are the new specs):

50.6MP full-size CMOS sensor (53MP total count)
5DS R is without low-pass filter
Magnesium alloy body
Dust and water sealed
Dual processor DIGIC6
Regular sensitivity ISO 100-6400, expand to 12800
Continuous shooting 5 frames / sec.
High precision 61-point AF, *41 cross type*
EOS iTR AF
150,000 pixel RGB + IR photometry sensor
Added “fine detail” to the Picture Style
1.3x and 1.6x crop shooting mode
Customizable “Quick Control Screen”
Time-lapse movie
Anti-flicker
* Interval Timer*
Bulb timer
* No headphone terminal
No DAF
No HDMI output for video (clean out). Not to compete with 5D III other video features are same.
*
The source also stated that the sensor is made by Canon using a new CMOS manufacturing process. I rate the added specs as CW3. The new specs (if real) confirm that these are DSLRs not oriented to the videographers.


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## K-amps (Feb 1, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



jrista said:


> _*_ *TTTMNBSO*: The term that must not be spoken of



Jon, just start calling it Voldemort... will be easier.


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## Eldar (Feb 1, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

I have asked for a still photography optimised camera, since I have absolutely no interest in video. Now it seems I will be getting one. I think I was hoping for an Exmor sensor, but I guess we´ll have to wait and see if this new CMOS process from Canon is the real deal ...

Hopefully the omission of video functionality can give us a respectable price for these cameras. The 5DIV will most likely be an expensive all singing and dancing machine, but these 5Ds bodies could well be both functional and price wise real 810 bashers


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## Eldar (Feb 1, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*



dilbert said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked for a still photography optimised camera, since I have absolutely no interest in video. Now it seems I will be getting one. I think I was hoping for an Exmor sensor, but I guess we´ll have to wait and see if this new CMOS process from Canon is the real deal ...
> ...


I am sure the majority want a combined still/video camera and they are fortunate to have multiple options today. As I said, I am sure the new 5DIV will be an all singing and dancing machine, with 4k and the lot, giving them most of what they want. But I have not recorded a single minute of video (except with an iPhone) since my son was born, 26 years ago ... So for me, they could remove every last bit of video functionality from these cameras. Less buttons, cleaner menus etc. etc. 

My shooting can be split in two. One half of my images are almost exclusively shot below ISO400 (portraits and landscape/nature) and I am printing in larger and larger formats. So for the 5Ds I am really hoping for a very high quality sensor, with improved low-ISO performance and DR, at least as the Exmor (who isn´t) etc. And if I could get a very high quality focusing screen for manual focus on top of that ... It could well be the last landscape and portrait camera I´ll buy. 
The other half of my shooting (action, birds and wildlife) is in the other end of the scale, where I´ll be waiting for the 1DX replacement. If that tics in around 24MP, with improved high-ISO performance (and a few others), I´ll promise to be a good boy for a looong time


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## Creative69 (Feb 1, 2015)

*Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R*

Thank you Canon! I do expect a forum to be filled with debate and criticism but some of the negative feedback is disappointing to say the least. The fact is the line between a consumer and pro camera is very blurred today, and if anyone that thinks that buying a specific model ie a 1d makes you a pro then canon obviously doesn't agree. A built in battery grip can be useful to many people not only "pros" even though most pros I know use the 5d series not the 1d series. Take The Apple iMac this was never previously considered a "pro" computer but now I bet more pros are using it than the Mac PRO. By the way I say this from a point of privaliged knowledge. Anyway thank you canon and bring it on, I own a 5d3 but it seems this new line up may finally kill my desire for the Nikon 810. In my opinion following the sony model of giving us choice in a range and not trying to make a one size fits all camera is spot on.


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