# Is it worth it...for me?



## fonts (Dec 2, 2012)

Quick Bullet Post:

Current
Body: Canon T3i
Lens: Sigma 30mm F1.4
No Flash

Photo
Smugmug: http://jonfonts.smugmug.com/
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jlizfonts/

I am not a professional at all. I only started in July and even though people around me are saying I'm progressing pretty quickly, I feel like I still can't really get photos that appeal me and match my vision. Also with my lack of experience I have trouble picturing the shot sometimes. My favorite photos are the one of my girlfriend in my Flickr page.

Now, when it comes to having money in my account, it means I will spend it tomorrow >.< I am trying to save for a new lens. The ones I'm currently looking at is the 50mm F1.2 vs 85mm F1.2. Currently leaning towards the 50mm, and I know the 1.4 is cheaper, but I like to shoot at those wide apertures and hear that the 1.4 isn't sharp open, but if you can really convince me to get it instead please do.

The thing is that I want to get a FF camera as well, probably 5D3 just cause I like the more AF points as I HATE focus + recompose and I can't understand how so many people ONLY use the center point, it really doesn't make sense to me. So in a sense within a year I'm already thinking about spending about $5000 in new gear. 

With my photos do you feel like it's a logical decision? I mean I don't mind taking a chance and spending money but I also want to be mature into this decision and ask you guys who many of you might of gone through this or have expert opinions about this. I know I need more experience but it would be nice in a sense to have better gear to motivate me, which I might really need since Minnesota gets so dark so early now.

Sorry bout the long winded post but I put a lot of energy into this hoping I would get the same in return. Also if you do recommend another lens, I would honestly like a prime better than a zoom only for the reason that I don't have to worry about deciding what focal length I should be on, I just want to get the exposure and shoot.

Btw, just incase I might go to hockey games this winter just so I can get SOME sport shots, it's like the only thing I feel like I can capture in the winter with my school and work schedule. I do like portraits and night time or indoor low light photography. 


Thank you in advance!


----------



## Hillsilly (Dec 2, 2012)

Buying new camera gear is rarely a logical decision. For instance, any real gain from using a 5D3 over a t3i is incremental and not readily apparent to a lot of non-photography people. If you go looking for the impovements in shadows, background blur, higher ISOs etc, you will see them. But while you wax lyrically about these improvements and how they make your photos better, your family and friends will stand there with glazed eyes and just say "yes...they are nice photos". But it is nice using top quality gear and the 5D3 will excel in low light and indoors.

Both the 50 and 85 are great lenses. Which one to go for might be easier to decide once you've worked out if you are sticking with the t3i. A quick glance through some of you photos suggests some are taken with a 17-55? That's a nice lens. And it looks like you use it a lot at 55mm. Do you regularly wish for a longer focal length? If not and you like the 50mm focal range, then the 50mm with the t3i and 85 with the 5D3 would seem the way to go. Just note that while these lenses will be great in low light and for portraits, neither is widely regarded as a sports lens. But that's ok - another excuse to go shopping....


----------



## fonts (Dec 2, 2012)

Haha true about the family stuff! Now of course I'm assuming the way you should think I go is the lens first then body? I definitely will get a FF camera one day, I feel like I need the ISO capabilities cause I never even push past 800 on my t3i, I just don't feel comfortable. 

I was thinking the 85 on the crop would be a nice reach for sports and then once I get a FF it'll be a nice portrait, but I definitely lean towards the 50mm being a nice portrait length on camera then a nice normal on FF. The thing that bugs me is the back focus issues? but I would be shooting wide open usually anyways which I hear isn't an issue than. 

Could you also help me out with understanding why people choose only to AF with the center point only? 
And leading into that, another reason why I would definitely like a new body is cause I hate how it feels like my t3i AF system isn't reliable at all, well not at all but not to my tastes, I sometimes just switch to live view, zoom and MF to my spot if I have the time.


----------



## EchoLocation (Dec 2, 2012)

There are many reasons why people choose center point AF only. I thnk that by far the most common one is that the outside AF points don't work as well. This is particularly true in the Canon world. In the Nikon forum i hang out on, there is wayyyyy less talk of it. Probably because the D700's AF kills the 5DII's.... Now that people are moving on to D800's and 5DIII's it's becoming a mute point(unless you're getting a 6D.)
Personally, I chose the 5D classic and the Sigma 50 1.4... I loved this FF combination while i got used to the FF look and using the bigger more complex body, but after a couple of years, i wanted better AF and a pop up flash, so I switched to a D700(i got really sick of carrying around the litte 240EX flash from Canon.)
I'd probably go with the Sigma 50 1.4 or (in my dreams) the 50mm 1.2. I wouldn't get the 50 1.4 Canon unless you can get one for super cheap, especially since there are rumors it will be replaced very soon.
Your pictures are nice, but as others have said, most people wont really notice much differencebetween camera bodies. I guess the decision about whether it's worth it is up to you.
However, i will say that lenses will depreciate much faster than bodies will so buying glass first is always a good idea. If you can get a 5DIII for around 2500 bucks I think thats a good deal though as the camera will probably be around that price for a couple more years.


----------



## Hillsilly (Dec 2, 2012)

You'll generally find that if you are shooting wide open and using the centre focus point and recomposing, then you will have more back focusing issues. At f/1.2 there is only a very thin plane of sharpness. Moving the camera moves this plane and causes backfocusing problems. As you stop down and use smaller apertures, the area of sharpness increases and focusing problems become less noticeable.

I'm not really suggesting lenses before bodies. It comes down to priorities, which issues you are trying to address, which capabilities you are trying to gain etc etc. There's rarely a right answer. Usually its all trial and error. I can guarantee that, like everyone, you will make some decisions or buy some gear that you'll later regret. Its all part of the fun.

Also, I think EchoLocation above meant camera bodies lose value faster than lenses. If you buy an "L" lens, it won't drop too much in value over the short to medium term. If you buy the wrong one, you can sell it second hand and shouldn't be out of pocket by too much. However, camera bodies will decrease in value faster. A lot of my lenses have very steady prices. Why have money sitting in the bank not earning any interest, when you could have that money invested in lenses that you can use? Most people wouldn't be any worse off. (Disclaimer: Please don't take my investment advice. In fact, don't even take my advice not to take my advice.]

I don't know if most people AF with the centre point only. I do occassionally as I know the centre point works well and I have my cameras set up so that at the press of a button I'm back at the centre point. But that's a personal choice and I find it works well for me when shooting sports and other fast moving subjects. I then crop later if needed. But I try to use the AF closest to what I want to focus on when I can. The thing that annoys me is that while my cameras have 45 AF points, they're all crammed into the centre of the frame. I'm just waiting for Canon to release a camera with a very wide array of AF points and I'll be jumping on it.


----------



## sandymandy (Dec 2, 2012)

Get 5dmk3 first. It will be your companion for years. Then just add 50mm 1.4 lens from whatever brand u prefer. FF already got a bit more of shallow DOF and i think 50mm 1.2L is nice but its not good if its gonna be about the only lens u are using. It really only shines at wide open and besides that it gets beaten by cheaper alternatives. 
Of course the higher f/numbers wont give u bad results its just....I think 50mm 1.2L shouldnt be the first pro lens _if_ u dont already have several other lenses for backup.

* and believe me u will come to a point in ur photo career where u want to try something else than bokeh craving*

Perhaps even the 6D might be good for you. You should really test it out in a store in ur area. Maybe u like it so u can save some more money compared to 5dmk3.
Besides that i think its not about "am i worth the FF camera and L lens?". If you are happy with what you are doing u are a good photographer.


----------



## koolman (Dec 2, 2012)

Heh Fonts

I'm not sure why you feel the need to spend so much $$$ so quickly - your shots are very nice with existing equipment. You seem to have good natural skill for someone shooting only a few short months.

As I see you like portraits with blurred backgrounds, maybe consider a longer lens. Id'e skip the 50mm options and go to 85mm options. Either:

1) Canon 85mm 1.8 = classic lens not expensive.

2) Samyang 85mm 1.4 MF lens - in the right hands this can produce stellar results.


----------



## cocopop05 (Dec 2, 2012)

My two cents.

Definitely 85mm if you like mainly shooting portraits.

Now, regarding the equipment. Photography is a recent hobby for me. I bought my first DSLR, a 5D Mark III with the 24-105mm f/4 L lens and a Speedlight 600ex-rt.

A family friend has a 60D with 18-200mm lens. We both take lots of family photos, his family photos are very similar to mine in terms of content. However, there is a massive gap in technical terms between our photos. My family think I am a gifted photographer (don't all families have inflated options on us), purely because my photos are so much sharper and clearer. 

Now I am new to photography and by no means am I a gifted photographer. I make tonnes of mistakes technically and on a composition and lighting level. I have so much to learn. 

What I am trying to say here is that having high quality gear gives your photos a quality that cannot be replicated by lower end equipment. It is a quality that may be hard to quantify, but people do notice.

If you have some budget to spend on new and higher quality equipment, then I would encourage you to go ahead. It will make a noticeable difference. I also highly recommending hiring the equipment you are looking to buy. That way you can see if the improvements are enough to warrant buying new gear and will help you decide which lens you prefer


----------



## picturesbyme (Dec 2, 2012)

1. go FF (5D2-it will be a good backup later, if you won't do it as a pro go for a deal on a 5D3)
2. since you like primes I'd check these out (inexpensive, yet great quality)
- canon 85 1.8 (you'll love it on crop and will be even better on ff)
- sigma 50 1.4 (smooth finish), I shot these with the 1st version.. still not that bad (http://atlanticpicture.com/p460965309)
- canon 200 2.8L
(Disagree with the lenses are losing value faster than bodies comment but that's another topic...)

You already have a good skills so you prob. already realized it's not the gear that makes the photos.. 
Some big name in the industry shot with only one or two lenses for years.. if you have a little time I suggest to 
see some of the vids here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/creativelive
http://www.youtube.com/user/BHPhotoVideoProAudio


----------



## sdsr (Dec 2, 2012)

Don't worry about whether someone else will notice differences in the finished results - better equipment is more enjoyable to use (some of us like the actual process of *using* a camera) and if you find a camera and/or lens more enjoyable to use you will likely end up taking better photos anyway.

If you don't know someone with a FF camera, do what I did and rent one (ditto lenses you're interested in); doing so isn't exactly free, but you may end up saving money (or not!); and there's no substitute for hands-on experience.

One last thing - if you like portraits with blurred background, consider going longer (esp. if you end up FF); 135L is not only fantastic in its own right, but considerably less expensive than 50L or 85L. Or try a good zoom such as Canon's 70-200 f/4 IS (or a 70-200 2.8 - needn't be Canon). If you want 85, consider the Sigma.

Have fun!


----------



## PavelR (Dec 2, 2012)

sdsr said:


> Don't worry about whether someone else will notice differences in the finished results - better equipment is more enjoyable to use (some of us like the actual process of *using* a camera) and if you find a camera and/or lens more enjoyable to use you will likely end up taking better photos anyway.
> 
> If you don't know someone with a FF camera, do what I did and rent one (ditto lenses you're interested in); doing so isn't exactly free, but you may end up saving money (or not!); and there's no substitute for hands-on experience.
> 
> ...


+4 ;-)
enjoying, longer FL, 135/2, 85/1.4


----------



## And-Rew (Dec 2, 2012)

Many moons ago - well approximately 4 years give or take, i asked my wife to let me have a budget to by a 5D2 to replace my 30D or 40D. When she was given the price of £2100 the smelling salts were in great use. 

That said, budget was given and i purchased said camera and on taking it out for its first shoot, she was impressed in the difference in almost all aspects of the pictures. 

ISO800 was not something to be used in emergency - ISO 6400 became the extent of the usable range. The level of detail captured and ability to crop were also something she picked up on quickly. Over the next few months, as the number of 'keepers' increased - she grudgingly accepted the investment was worth while in so far has what "equipment could do to help me improve my photography".

Unlike you, i had already invested in L class lens so did not have that aspect of choice you do. My one and only gripe with the 5D2 ever, was its 9 point AF. Like you, I'm not a center point AF person - i like to choose the AF point according to shot, and sadly all i can say is - i learned to work with the 5D2 AF system.

5D3 AF is a whole new ball game - i don't own one but have tried it and it would be fair to say my gripe has been remedied - and i think you would be happy with it as well. So in that respect, the 5D3 would be a valuable investment to your photography. We've already said how good ISO is on thr 5D2, and it is no worse on a 5D3, so that's most bases covered.

As for lens option - i really would suggest renting the 50 1.2, 85 1.2 or 135 f2 and seeing which floats your photographic boat the most. I've used the 85 1.2 but didn't get on with it - but i think i was the problem, not the lens.


----------



## Dylan777 (Dec 2, 2012)

From T3i to 5D III is a HUGE jump. Therefore, you will see HUGE improvement in IQ in low light.

I love my 5D III + 24-70 f2.8 II combo


----------



## Zv (Dec 2, 2012)

Nice images on flickr I commented on one I really liked. If I could go back an learn from the start I would learn about LIGHTING, using light effectively and understanding it will help you create better images than simply buying a new lens. Some of my best images were done with my nifty fifty and t2i. When I look at which images worked out well it always comes down to how the light played out. Buy a flash and get it off camera or even just a reflector for some fill. 

You have creative skills, just think what you could do by controlling and shaping light! 

I guess moving to FF is inevitable so you might as well do it now! 

If you do go for a lens, analyse your shots for focal length to see which you like the best. A 35L might be nice as you could crop it later, it gives a kinda 50ish equivalent on FF. Otherwise if you like tele / compressed look with nice bokeh I would say 85L possibly the sigma as an alternative. 135 is a bit long for portraits on a crop body, best leave that until FF. 

Added - Yeah I'm an advocate for select your focus point manually, I even wrote a blog article about focusing to help spread the word! 
zeebytes.blogspot.jp


----------



## SJTstudios (Dec 2, 2012)

Definitely the 50 if you're going to ff. it makes some really nice shots, and you're already used to the 30mm on your crop body, which is 50mm ff equivalent, now the 50 will make a good portrait lens, and it will look nice on ff.

The 85 may not do you much good now, if you get it and then upgrade, the 85 will be the only ff lens you'll have. 
Get once you move to ff, or sell the 30mm and get the 85mm 1.8


----------



## Sojuko Hitami (Dec 2, 2012)

Buy nothing but the following in this exact order...

1) Current 5D
2) Current 85 1.2
3) Current 70-200 2.8 IS
4) Current radio flash #1
5) Current 24-70 2.8
6) Current 16-35 2.8
7) Current radio flash #2
8) Current 2x extender

Buy it as you can afford it. Shoot the hell out of it as you go. Done.


----------



## elflord (Dec 2, 2012)

fonts said:


> Now, when it comes to having money in my account, it means I will spend it tomorrow >.< I am trying to save for a new lens. The ones I'm currently looking at is the 50mm F1.2 vs 85mm F1.2. Currently leaning towards the 50mm, and I know the 1.4 is cheaper, but I like to shoot at those wide apertures and hear that the 1.4 isn't sharp open, but if you can really convince me to get it instead please do.



Take a look at the photozone benchmarks. Sharpness (wide open, at f/1.4 or otherwise) is not a reason to prefer the vastly more expensive L lens.

I think given your subject matter, full frame makes sense. As far as glass is concerned, I'd recommend getting the/a 50mm f/1.4 (great on crop -- get this before you get a new body), and a flash. Then look at a full frame body and more lenses. 

Re focus and recompose, I find it more intuitive and faster than manually selecting the AF point. I find fumbling with the joystick a bit cumbersome, and the center point performs better anyway. I do sometimes select the AF point but usually focus and recompose. I never allow the camera to select the AF point.


----------



## distant.star (Dec 2, 2012)

.
Sorry to rain on the shopping parade, but you need experience far more than you need equipment. You've already got decent picture making equipment; spend your time using that to make the best images you possibly can. Give yourself a year with what you've got. A few suggestions:

1. Get involved with a photo club or some class or group that will critique your work constructively. Typically, they will give you "challenges" to go out and get a particular type of picture so you have to get focused on what it takes to MAKE that kind of image.

2. Limit your shooting to only one lens for a day or week or so. That forces you to live within the limitations of that lens and schools you in the discipline of being challenged by limitations. Photography is nothing if not dealing with limitations. The better you get at accepting and dealing with that, the better photographer you will become.

3. Take pictures relentlessly. Shoot every single day. Maybe for 2013, do a 365 project where you have to take and post a picture every day. This forces you to do the work that makes you better.

4. Do some formal training (reading, classes, online videos, etc.) in the theory of photography -- composition, lighting, optics, etc. I know the more I do this the more it eventually sinks in.

Finally, if you can't resist playing Santa for yourself this month, get one of these two lenses:

EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro. This gives you a tighter portrait capability as well as a new option to try some macro work. 

EF 135mm f/2.0L. This provides some reach for the sports you mentioned, and it's great for low light, nighttime work. If you get this, go out and walk around at night taking pictures. Also spend a day doing "headhunting," portraits of everyone you see.

Both of those are L-class lenses and will become part of your kit when you move to full-frame photography. Also, you can get either one for less than $1000US.

Thanks for asking -- a good first step.


----------



## christianronnel (Dec 2, 2012)

distant.star said:


> .
> Sorry to rain on the shopping parade, but you need experience far more than you need equipment. You've already got decent picture making equipment; spend your time using that to make the best images you possibly can. Give yourself a year with what you've got. A few suggestions:
> 
> 1. Get involved with a photo club or some class or group that will critique your work constructively. Typically, they will give you "challenges" to go out and get a particular type of picture so you have to get focused on what it takes to MAKE that kind of image.
> ...



+1 Best advice given here. But if the cash is burning a hole in your pocket, buy the 85 1.2 or the 70-200II. The 50 1.2 will not give you that much different look than the 85 1.2 can. And since you already have the 17-55 zoom, the 24-70II can wait. Never buy a full frame body without any lens to go with it. I mean, what would be the point?

As for the 50 1.4 not being sharp wide open, that's correct. In fact it's not sharp until f2-f2.8. The 50 1.2 is okay at 1.2 and would only add to your ego nothing more. 

For some insights (not sure if adding anything), almost all pro photographers I had a chance to hang out with use 35L, *50 1.4*, 85LII, 135L, 70-200LII for portrait. Some carry the 24-105 or the new 24-70II... and 16-35II but use it grudgingly for lack of a better option.

If I'm asked to assist they hand me the 24-70 and 70-200II


----------



## Marsu42 (Dec 2, 2012)

fonts said:


> The ones I'm currently looking at is the 50mm F1.2 vs 85mm F1.2. Currently leaning towards the 50mm, and I know the 1.4 is cheaper, but I like to shoot at those wide apertures and hear that the 1.4 isn't sharp open, but if you can really convince me to get it instead please do.



The 50L is said to be notoriously complicated to handle, and except for the bokeh easily outperformed by other lenses - did you look at the Sigma, too? But given your two choices you don't seem to have made up your mind what you want to do with these primes anyway? 



fonts said:


> as I HATE focus + recompose and I can't understand how so many people ONLY use the center point



Focus & recompose is much faster than selecting the correct af point when the scene constantly changes ... and not all af points perform equally, esp. not on the 5d3 - it depends on the lens attached.



fonts said:


> With my photos do you feel like it's a logical decision?



I don't think getting a 5d3 and stretching or exhausting one's budget is a smart idea atm except if you're a pro and are likely to get a return of invest. Canon is bound to make a leap in sensor tech in 2013, probably starting with the crop cameras.



fonts said:


> Finally, if you can't resist playing Santa for yourself this month, get one of these two lenses: EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro. This gives you a tighter portrait capability as well as a new option to try some macro work.



+1 for a macro lens (it doesn't *have* to be the L or Canon at all, but the L can be dual-used as a general prime) is the most fun lens on the block and opens up new possibilities. If I would have to choose one lens, it'd be the 100L (and a Kenko 1.4x extender to accompany it).

Last not least, buying other gear imho is as important as lenses - flashes, lighting gear, filters, tripod(s)+head(s) - much more fun & possible advancement than the latest and greatest camera body or biggest lens on the block.


----------



## bycostello (Dec 4, 2012)

fonts said:


> I am not a professional at all. I only started in July and even though people around me are saying I'm progressing pretty quickly, I feel like I still can't really get photos that appeal me and match my vision.



then u need to practice, new kit won't get u that


----------



## unfocused (Dec 5, 2012)

One more opinion to muddy the water.

You seem to like portraits (based on your photo stream). The good news then, is that you can invest in lenses that will work on either full frame or crop without having to decide between the two just yet. 

There is nothing in your pictures that will be improved by going full frame, but a lot that will be improved by getting a longer lens. Choices would be: 85mm; 100mm, 135mm or 70-200mm. All will give you a little more reach which will flatter your subjects and create greater separation between them and the background. Even on a crop sensor, all of these lenses are very usable for portraits. 

Also, consider investing in a strobe. With the T3i you can remotely fire an off-camera flash. You'd be amazed at how much you can do and learn with a single off-camera flash and an umbrella. 

Cameras are short-term investments, lenses are long-term investments. Invest in a lens or two now, and when you feel you've outgrown the camera, then start shopping.


----------



## robbymack (Dec 5, 2012)

unfocused said:


> One more opinion to muddy the water.
> 
> You seem to like portraits (based on your photo stream). The good news then, is that you can invest in lenses that will work on either full frame or crop without having to decide between the two just yet.
> 
> ...



+1 glass and a strobe (430exii is probably all you need for now) should be the next step. I also liked this posters photostream, some of them could have used some fill flash (dont be afraid to pop the flash on The t3i when you need some fill flash outdoors) and it seems a lot where outside so no reason to worry about small spaces inside and for that the 17-55 is awesome on crop. I'd say a 85/100 1.8,either won't break the bank and would be a great choice, if it must be L then maybe the 100L macro, also a good portrait lens plus you can play with some macro, or a 135L but that may be a little long on crop but both are still half the price of an 85L


----------



## Area256 (Dec 5, 2012)

distant.star said:


> .
> Sorry to rain on the shopping parade, but you need experience far more than you need equipment. You've already got decent picture making equipment; spend your time using that to make the best images you possibly can. Give yourself a year with what you've got. A few suggestions:
> 
> 1. Get involved with a photo club or some class or group that will critique your work constructively. Typically, they will give you "challenges" to go out and get a particular type of picture so you have to get focused on what it takes to MAKE that kind of image.
> ...



+1 This is great advice.

Also if you like taking pictures of people, I can't empathize enough how important it is to learn lighting! Both how to use external lighting (flashes/strobes/reflectors/modifiers/etc), and how to take advantage of natural light sources. Strobist.com is a good place to learn more about getting into cheep off camera lighting, but there are many other sources both online and in print. The best part of lighting is you don't have to spend a lot, since a cheap $100 manual flash will give you the same results as a $600 one in manual mode. I've had at least 10 times more ROI from lighting, in terms of how much it has improved my photography, than I have from better lenses/cameras.

Specifically I'd advise learning how to light and pose people; there are some amazing things that can be done with a combination of good posing and good lighting. Want to make a person look lighter and thinner, or stronger and larger? Want to create an atmosphere, or a specific mood? No camera will do that, but there are lighting/posing/composing tricks that will.

Now I'll admit I enjoy fancy equipment as much as the next person (I'm buying a 6D this week, and I own the 100mm f/2.8L macro and I love it for portraits and macro). And I'd love to own an 85mm f/1.2L, a 135mm f/2L, and a 5D3 someday. It's fun to shoot with awesome equipment. And if you have the means and will enjoy using it, why not. However, it won't make your photos automatically better. Only a combination of experience and knowledge will do that. Looking at your photos you are off to a great start already.

Best of luck, and keep having fun taking pictures!


----------



## SJTstudios (Dec 5, 2012)

distant.star said:


> .
> Sorry to rain on the shopping parade, but you need experience far more than you need equipment. You've already got decent picture making equipment; spend your time using that to make the best images you possibly can. Give yourself a year with what you've got. A few suggestions:
> 
> 1. Get involved with a photo club or some class or group that will critique your work constructively. Typically, they will give you "challenges" to go out and get a particular type of picture so you have to get focused on what it takes to MAKE that kind of image.
> ...



I agree 100%, expierience is Key. L lenses are there for the pros. Ive got an l macro and its awesome, and i love it but money can be spent much wiser. Go out and buy some cheap primes if you really want some new lenses. Primes make you expierience the world differently.
-canon 50mm 1.8
-canon 85mm 1.8
-old canon 35mm f2
-old canon 24mm/28mm 2.8
-canon 100mm f2
-canon 60mm 2.8 ef-s
-canon 15mm 2.8

Or even...
-canon 135mm 2.8 soft focus
-canon 20mm 2.8
-a lensbaby
-or even the canon 200mm f2.8 l

All these primes are sub $1000, all the ones in the top group would total $3000

L lenses are the pinnacle of lenses, but they're pro quality. Unless the photos you take will be printed poster size plus, you don't need a l lens.

If I had to go on a shoot with a 5dii and a 50mm 1.2 or a giant load of primes with a rebel, I'd go rebel. Lenses make the image. That's why not a lot of pros shoot with an 18-200. And I think anybody's friends would be just as jealous or think you're just as pro with 7 nice lenses, rather than a 1.2l

I like to think that amateurs unless they're filthy stinkin' rich should set a budget for gear prices. If you have to spend a year saving up for a 5d iii and an l lens, when you just shoot your kids, your wasting time and money. People are allowed to choose what they do, and I respect that, but I enjoy using my primes and my rebel to make stunning images, I make a little cash here and there, but not enough to justify such an expensive purchase. I buy the cheaper primes so I can make interesting images, my l macro is for the flowers, portraits, and I shoot everything with it. I've put aside a fund for a 70-200, since I use my telephoto for most of my profitable photos.

But I love primes, and that is how I learned and still learn how to shoot. Although the 1.2 lenses will wow all your friends and family for portraits, something like the canon 60mm macro or the 15mm fisheye will wow everyone, and that is where you could start making money, and the l lenses will become more justifyible.

I have my own printer for my house framing, and I love playing with it, it teaches me how to work colors, and now I can justify purchasing a large format printer. But, start out with your rebel, a couple primes, and some lessons, and you'll go far. You can actually ask Walgreens to print photos, and it's fairly cheap. I purchased 2 4x6's for 42 cents.

But if you really want an l lens, 135mm f2, or 100mm l macro. I highly recommend the macro.

And, best thing about small primes, you can wrap them and put them in your stockings 

Santa left me a 50mm 1.8 ii, a 28mm 1.8, and a 430 ex ii nobody knew.


----------



## Marsu42 (Dec 5, 2012)

SJTstudios said:


> Ive got an l macro and its awesome, and i love it but money can be spent much wiser.



For non-outdoor (dust, sand...) macro work on a budget I'd advise a used Canon 100mm non-L ... there are tons around used so the price is rather low and it's a very good lens.


----------



## Zv (Dec 5, 2012)

I disagree, if you want an L lens and you have the means why shouldnt you buy one? Reserved for pros my foot. almost everyone on this forum has an L and most are hobbyists. I regret NOT buying L from the start. Sometimes you just need a better lens.


----------



## Marsu42 (Dec 5, 2012)

Zv said:


> I regret NOT buying L from the start. Sometimes you just need a better lens.



Personally, I think when buying ef (L) lenses for crop, it should be an educated decision like the need for dust sealing or the possibility to upgrade to ff. Esp. for uwa lenses the choices on crop smoke the expensive and/or mediocre offers on ff, and there are excellent value standard zooms for ef-s, too. 

You're correct most people have L lenses and feel a 70-200/2.8ii is an absolute necessity, but this forum is really very biased - if you look at other more general, non-enthusiast forums it's completely different, so looking/asking around a bit is always a good idea.

The main bias is that of course expensive equipment is excellent, but few people have a direct comparison how/if the cheaper version would have done any worse - just about every Canon lens except for Rebel kits is at least decent. After buying expensive stuff you feel 99% of the time it was worth it, this is just human, and it's the same with me.


----------



## M.ST (Dec 5, 2012)

RE to: I feel like I still can't really get photos that appeal me and match my vision. 

All you need to match a vision is the right light and a perfect composition. Expensive equipment can only assist.

It´s very funny that everyone need or recommend a pro camera and pro lenses for hobby photographers.


----------



## EchoLocation (Dec 5, 2012)

M.ST said:


> RE to: I feel like I still can't really get photos that appeal me and match my vision.
> 
> All you need to match a vision is the right light and a perfect composition. Expensive equipment can only assist.
> 
> It´s very funny that everyone need or recommend a pro camera and pro lenses for hobby photographers.


Says the man with 2 1DX's and an essay of gear for a signature.....
do you love using a T2i and an 18-55?
.....neither do most hobbyists who care enough about their gear to hang out on CanonRumors Forum


----------



## Zv (Dec 5, 2012)

My first L was a 70-200 and first thing I noticed was the images look fine straight out of Camera, and that meant less time dicking around on LR trying to correct things like CA, color and contrast. Time is money, saved time = money well spent. ;D


----------



## aprotosimaki (Dec 5, 2012)

I like your photographs especially your black and white work. I would seriously consider starting to work with off camera flash and spend your winter perfecting throwing light on to your subjects. I might even buy two flashes (since money is not holding you back) and get both off your camera. I bought a set of Cactus V5 triggers because the price was right and they seem to work ok for manual work.


----------



## tron (Dec 5, 2012)

At minimum get a body that supports AFMA ...


----------



## Zv (Dec 5, 2012)

aprotosimaki said:


> I like your photographs especially your black and white work. I would seriously consider starting to work with off camera flash and spend your winter perfecting throwing light on to your subjects. I might even buy two flashes (since money is not holding you back) and get both off your camera. I bought a set of Cactus V5 triggers because the price was right and they seem to work ok for manual work.



+1

Yeah, get a couple of Yongnuo YN560II's and Cactus v5 or some other cheap trigger. A few gels and the speedliters handbook and your good to go!


----------



## christianronnel (Dec 5, 2012)

I think the advice given here is somewhat "generational" in nature. Those who started out in film, when the gear is very expensive and processing is also very expensive, they didn't start with L grade equipment. But I think if they could afford it at the time they would have. Those who are starting out in digital age only need to spend on gear at the early stage of their hobby. Also new generation of photographers have access to fantastic photographs online which are taken with better gear. Anecdotally, there is this guy I know and he was talking badly about a kid younger than I am. He said, "I hate that kid already shooting with 5D mkII and L lenses. I didn't get to L lenses until 20 years into my career." I think that's just jealousy talking but I didn't say anything.

Personally, I would rather the gear I'm using not get in the way of learning. It's hard enough to control light, create good composition, pose the model, communicate to the model, make them comfortable. If you have to add the complexity of trying to use a gear a certain way because of it's limitation, well, that's not fun anymore. Here's an example of the gear getting in the way


fonts said:


> The thing is that I want to get a FF camera as well, probably 5D3 just cause I like the more AF points as I HATE focus + recompose and I can't understand how so many people ONLY use the center point, it really doesn't make sense to me. So in a sense within a year I'm already thinking about spending about $5000 in new gear.



I disagree with this 


SJTstudios said:


> -canon 50mm 1.8
> -canon 85mm 1.8
> -old canon 35mm f2
> -old canon 24mm/28mm 2.8
> ...



Why spend $3000 on gear you don't want or need.


But let's not forget the title of this post: Is it worth it...for him? My answer, rent them both and see if they are worth it. And with your statement:


fonts said:


> I am not a professional at all. I only started in July and even though people around me are saying I'm progressing pretty quickly, I feel like I still can't really get photos that appeal me and match my vision. Also with my lack of experience I have trouble picturing the shot sometimes...
> 
> ...With my photos do you feel like it's a logical decision? I mean I don't mind taking a chance and spending money but I also want to be mature into this decision and ask you guys who many of you might of gone through this or have expert opinions about this. I know I need more experience but it would be nice in a sense to have better gear to motivate me, which I might really need since Minnesota gets so dark so early now.



I still think the best advice given here is this:


distant.star said:


> .
> Sorry to rain on the shopping parade, but you need experience far more than you need equipment. You've already got decent picture making equipment; spend your time using that to make the best images you possibly can. Give yourself a year with what you've got. A few suggestions:
> 
> 1. Get involved with a photo club or some class or group that will critique your work constructively. Typically, they will give you "challenges" to go out and get a particular type of picture so you have to get focused on what it takes to MAKE that kind of image.
> ...



Know your gear, get more experience, then decide what you're missing. Rent the gear you think you need, or like, for a week, or borrow from a friend. Expense it in your head. Don't have buyer's remorse. And don't be a lens collector. "The best gear you have is the one you carry with you." (unless you carry a cabinet, or a sherpa )


----------



## fonts (Dec 6, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies!

Just clearing some stuff up: I only use a Sigma 30mm F1.4....the 17-55 was rented for a week where I wanted to record my cousins wedding. Link to video http://youtu.be/9Xwt1yE1Esk?hd=1 - it has spanish background music just to warn you.

But yea, so in terms of lenses, the sigma is always on the camera, the only other lens I have is the kit 18-55 which has stayed in my bag for idk how long. 

I have researched hundreds of hours already online, and I think that's why I'm progressing as quickly as I am. I also am taking a basic digital photo class to make sure I have all of my basic foundation grounded. I will be taking another photo class next semester and even join the universities photo club as suggested.



christianronnel said:


> Personally, I would rather the gear I'm using not get in the way of learning. It's hard enough to control light, create good composition, pose the model, communicate to the model, make them comfortable. If you have to add the complexity of trying to use a gear a certain way because of it's limitation, well, that's not fun anymore. Here's an example of the gear getting in the way



This is the whole reason why I am trying to invest in new gear. I know my limitations, and I'm to a point with my current body where I just "feel" like I need more coverage in what I want to do. I ALWAYS shoot in manual M mode. Like when I mean always, I mean it, cause there are times where once I switch to Av I get lost and have to reteach my self "ok, Ev Comp, change it with...this dial to get....this image". I installed ML to get me more stuff to mess around with in my menu, and I feel like that's not enough sometimes.



tron said:


> At minimum get a body that supports AFMA ...



Haha, yea trust me, I'm always second guessing myself if the lens needs it or not. Camera with AFMA would be nice.



aprotosimaki said:


> I like your photographs especially your black and white work. I would seriously consider starting to work with off camera flash and spend your winter perfecting throwing light on to your subjects. I might even buy two flashes (since money is not holding you back) and get both off your camera. I bought a set of Cactus V5 triggers because the price was right and they seem to work ok for manual work.



Thank you! and I am thinking of buy the 430 EX II. I did play around with the on-camera flash settings (thank ML too for given me more control of the flash) and for my last couple of photos have been using a white sheet of paper to give me SO MUCH better and softer light to the subject. But yea, I think if anything an off-camera flash would be my next purchase.



Oh and it's not that I love taking portraits, I just like the experience of it, and with my school and work hours, its hard to get a chance to walk around in the day to get some different pictures.


----------



## RustyTheGeek (Dec 13, 2012)

It's all been said so I'll just throw out my opinion... It sounds like you are starting off right, reading a lot and learning by using M and thinking about the shots. Don't get caught up in the hype of buying so much. It's not necessary.

*The essence of a good photographer is not what he can do with equipment, it's what he can do without it!* All the fancy stuff does is make it a little easier but you don't learn as much if you can overcome all the challenges with high ISO, fast fps, etc. For example, having a Classic 5D in low light forced me to improve my camera stabilization technique and watch for subject movement. It also eventually made me really appreciate the difference a faster lens makes.

- *Don't spend a lot of money now.* Get ONE additional lens of your choice to enjoy at Christmas and learn.
- *Learn about the LIGHT.* Flash, Bounce, Diffuse, Available, Off Camera, whatever. Inexpensive triggers would be easy to add. Check out David Hobby's Strobist blog. It rocks for off camera flash info. Read Joe McNally. Lots of great interesting stories about real life challenges and how their experience saved them, not their equipment.
- *Build evenly.* Buying a 5D3 is NOT building evenly. This stuff isn't going anywhere. Buy what you need a little at a time and really use it as you buy it. After a year of heavy use, you will really know what you want or need and perhaps you can get a great used 5D3 for less if you still even want it.
- Get protection for your equipment, small things like a monopod and/or tripod, high quality strap and case system with room to grow, etc.
- If you want to experience FF, rent and then perhaps buy a 5D Classic or 5D2 used. What's the rush to spend $3K on a body?

*EQUIPMENT OVERLOAD* - I can't emphasize this enough... it won't be long before you will experience frustration with too much equipment. I know that sounds hard to believe but eventually you will have trouble choosing which lenses to take, which body works best, should I just take it all?, etc. You'll start having storage issues. It will happen. So don't rush it. I think many here will agree that there is a lot to be said about owning one body and two or three lenses total. The more familiar you are with what you own, the easier it will be to choose how you use it and what you buy next.

I'll repeat - take it slow. Buy used if possible. Sure you can go out and spend $5K on a body and one L lens but I think you will be robbing yourself of a much more interesting experience of slower growth. Enjoy the process and get plenty of books to learn from to maximize your satisfaction and knowledge. There is another thread on here currently that is discussing books. See my post along with others for good suggestions. http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=11435.0

Have fun and shoot often!!


----------



## Zv (Dec 13, 2012)

+1 on the gear overload thing! I always try to carry the lightest equipment possible for the situation, often opting for the cheap 50 1.8 as my only lens over my zooms. Makes me wanna buy the 40 pancake! 

I can just about fit my camera, lenses and speedlites in one Kata 205 bug backpack so I always try to balance a new purchase by selling something. Like for like or lighter! 

It's all about downsizing these days!


----------



## AudioGlenn (Jan 26, 2013)

sandymandy said:


> If you are happy with what you are doing u are a good photographer.



amen


----------



## AudioGlenn (Jan 26, 2013)

to the OP. nice work man. keep up the shooting

I know this is an older thread but I would just like to add my votes for new gear purchases. I'm all for the newest/latest/greatest gadgets but frankly I'm surprised by all the recommendations for "specialty" lenses considering what you own and don't own.

I think at first, we need to shop for things offer quality (IQ), versatility, and value. This helps us learn more about what we want/need. We can then make more informed decisions about future purchases/upgrades. As an example, I thought I wanted to go ALL primes, but for my style of shooting, I found that I could do more with 2.8 zooms and in the end, save tons of money (at least before I decide I want all the prime lenses again!)

There are a handful of pieces of gear that really made a huge change to my photography. The most important purchases I made (for my style) when I first started were the following:

1) flash....get it off camera. get 2 if you can. when you have time to play with lighting setups, you can really change the look of your photos. Also, you don't have to worry so much about high ISO noise performance. Your t3i can already trigger a flash wirelessly. have fun with that.

2) ultra wide angle lens. (I got a used Canon 10-22mm when I first started). a very different look and one that I found I loved... especially for "fun" shots (family parties, dance floor at a wedding reception, etc.) I love playing with the distortion of a wide angle

3) 70-200 2.8 IS II sharpest lens I own. AWESOME bokeh. I thought you could only get this look from primes but the 70-200 is a beast. the longer focal lengths helps create a shallower depth of field. pair this up with a FF camera and you'll have TONS to play with. Not sure if I'd recommend an 85 1.2 before this (as some people have stated). The 70-200 is way more versatile and it's in the same price range.

4) Adobe Lightroom 4... not sure what you're using for post but this is a must. It's always a pain to learn new software (I came from Aperture) but this was probably one of my best (top 3) investments ever.

5) 5d mk3. FF has many advantages over crop. I didn't appreciate the differences in details until I tried it. (I borrowed a friends mk2)

on a side note: AFMA is very useful. It turned my old 50 1.4 into a lens that shined. Still found I was using it at 2.8 though so I sold it and bought a 24-70 II.

Best of luck to you. Keep us posted on your purchases. =)


----------



## sanfranchristo (Jan 26, 2013)

Adding my $.02 to some of the good advice that has been offered. With all due respect, and as constructively as possible, I think you are getting WAY ahead of yourself with your proposed purchases based on on how long you have been shooting. Just a few things I will echo or challenge...

As far as bodies, I think you are overestimating the nuances with various AF capabilities and proposing a pretty giant leap in functionality and price from where you are now. There's no doubt that the AF system of the 5DIII is much improved over the 5DII, but either a used 5DII, which can be had at a very reasonable price now, or a 6D while still on promo seems like a better value proposition from where you are now. Bodies change every few years, so this is not going to be a very long-term investment for you. I'd strongly recommend a used 5DII to make the initial move to FF instead of spending on a 5DIII right now.

For lenses, I am a bit shocked that you're even considering a 50 L or 85 L. We can go on for days about "sharpness" of the 50 1.4 vs. 1.2, etc. but I find the debates about sharpness to be the most over-emphasizes aspect of photography for all but those shooting commercially or for large-format print. Look around the web at some of the top-notch shots taken with the 1.4 before you settle on how sharp it isn't. When used properly (assuming a good copy), the vast majority of people will not see the difference in a very good lens vs. a "legendary" lens. The 50 1.4 (or even 1.8 ) would be my general recommendation for the first lens to buy on a FF. The 85 1.8 is perhaps the best value portrait lens, and unless you have a very specific reason for the 1.2 (and the skill to use it), there is no reason for you to consider spending that much yet. The work of many of the best photographers (historically) would not be considered "sharp" by the standards of today's digital pixel peepers.

Other lens thoughts... the 40 2.8 is a very capable and fun lens to explore FF with - and a tremendous value. I'd recommend that as a first purchase - even if you outgrow it, you'll always have a great-performing option in your pocket or travel bag. Consider a used 70-200 4.0 IS - you can get good deals on these, and unless you have a specific, income-generating, need for more light, it is one of the most versatile lenses to explore the longer end with - with fantastic results. That, paired with a "normal" prime will get you very far. I will also plug the 100 macro L as a possible first L - it's true that the non-L has almost equal IQ, but this makes a fantastic macro and portrait lens (the IS helps) that you will have fun with and probably never outgrow (and is somewhat reasonably priced right now).

One other +1 would be Lightroom. Looking at some of your photos, you will be well served to improved your PP skills (corrections, enhancements and cropping) and Lightroom is easy and affordable. It will make a big difference in quality and sanity.

Renting is often a good option, as is befriending other photographers in the same situation as you to periodically trade lenses and equipment. Have a good macro? Find someone with a very long tele.

If I could tell my former self one thing, it would be go out and shoot and stop reading about technical capabilities of cameras and lenses and what they do or do not do in labs or for others. It's good to be informed when making investments, but the best equipment for you is what you enjoy and actually use. Choose one thing and use it until you have a very specific, well-defined, need for an upgrade or addition. Good luck and go SLOW with the $ investments.


----------



## bycostello (Jan 27, 2013)

no practice more first


----------



## Zv (Jan 30, 2013)

I agree with sanfran. Some of my best shots were with my cheapest gear. You only NEED to upgrade if there is a specific reason to do so. I have still got my little nifty fifty and use it because it still works and rarely lets me down! If you can get the job done with the tools you got why change em?


----------

