# 5D Mark III & 1D X Black Focus Point in AI Servo Information



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 24, 2012)

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<strong>Some technical stuff for you


</strong>I wrote about this functionality a <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/05/canon-eos-5d-mark-iii-ai-servo-af-point-issue/" target="_blank">few weeks ago</a>, and it appears no solution is in sight. I have been given a bit of information as to why it may be difficult to address.</p>
<p><strong>Background


</strong>For some of us shooting the 5D Mark III, there is an issue that is driving some, not all, photographers bonkers. That is, when shooting in AI Servo mode, the focus point we have selected does not illuminate red, like it does on the EOS-1′s like the 1D Mark IV. The 7D has always had the black focus points in AI Servo and we never really heard many complaints about it. However, since the 5D3 came about, there have been countless complaints about shooting in AI servo mode without the illuminating focus points.</p>
<p>I finally spent a serious amount of time with the 5D Mark III, and I am on the side of it being extremely annoying that I can’t see my AF point in AI servo mode in various situations. Lowlight, black shirts, birds in flight and that sort of thing. With the 61 AF points, I do move the focus point off of center during AI Servo usage.</p>
<p>As mentioned, there have been lots of <a href="http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1099852" target="_blank">forum threads</a> on the topic and I have finally heard from a few people what the issue is.</p>
<p><strong>Below is some technical information about why (correct me if we’re wrong).


</strong>The transmissive LCD is the issue with both the 5D Mark III and the 1D X. Despite greatly improved AF, the exposure is affected by the red light of the AF point. This is why they do not light up in AI servo just prior to the exposure reading being made.</p>
<p>In order to solve the problem, Canon will have to figure a way to turn them on (red), yet adjust for the exposure differential. That isn’t as easy as it sounds, as each focus point will affect exposure slightly differently not to mention it’s also dependant on which exposure mode is active.</p>
<p><strong>Can it happen?


</strong>It’s possible, because I’m told Canon is working on a solution. They do know a segment of photographer is having trouble with the black AF points. I am told the 1D X will launch with the same functionality as the 5D Mark III.</p>
<p>For some photographers, this is not an issue, or even a minor annoyance.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## DustinF00 (May 24, 2012)

I have an issue in just single shot mode, where when you half press for focus, the single focus point selected doesnt light up at all, so you have no idea what's trying to focus on where (if you say forget which AF Point you've left selected).

This behavior is driving me nuts.

Does this make sense to anyone else?


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## neuroanatomist (May 24, 2012)

DustinF00 said:


> I have an issue in just single shot mode, where when you half press for focus, the single focus point selected doesnt light up at all, so you have no idea what's trying to focus on where (if you say forget which AF Point you've left selected).



AFAIK, you can set it to light up in the C.Fn's.


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## awinphoto (May 24, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> The 7D has always had the black focus points in AI Servo and we never really heard many complaints about it. However, since the 5D3 came about, there have been countless complaints about shooting in AI servo mode without the illuminating focus points.</p>



Coming from the 7d, i guess it never really bothered me and I appreciated the AF system so i learned to deal. When I had it in AI Focus, which I have my cameras set on most the time, It illuminates when it gets initial focus but doesn't after the subject starts moving. I think it would annoy me more than help me if the freaking VF kept blinking as the subject moved and af adjusted.. Just kinda would drive me bonkers but my 2 cents.


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## Drizzt321 (May 24, 2012)

The solution is probably Canon running every single possible focus point combination against all metering modes under a variety of lighting & subject conditions to get information on how the metering is affected when it's black vs red. And then run a whole bunch of calculations, and figure out the best adjustments/algorithms to add into a later firmware. That's my guess, and it'd be extremely time consuming. 

I for one would like this to be an option, and I'm hoping they do come up with the necessary fixes to release another firmware to enable this.


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## zhap03 (May 24, 2012)

DustinF00 said:


> I have an issue in just single shot mode, where when you half press for focus, the single focus point selected doesnt light up at all, so you have no idea what's trying to focus on where (if you say forget which AF Point you've left selected).
> 
> This behavior is driving me nuts.
> 
> Does this make sense to anyone else?



Dustin, you can go into your menu and change the setting that will illuminate the AF points red. I can't remember where this option resides in the menu, but it does exist. I'm at work right now and my 5d3 isn't here, otherwise I'd tell you exactly which option to change. It's time to open your instruction manual or play around with your 5D3's menu.


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## danqi (May 24, 2012)

A much bigger issue in my opinion is that you do not get any visual focus confirmation in single shot mode, when you are in an environment that is bright enough to make the red light invisible.

When I have the beep sound off (as I often have to), how do I know if the camera was able to achieve focus? My old 5D Mark I would flash the focus point red as confirmation that it achieved focus. But with the Mark III this works only in low-light situations, as the red light is impossible to see in brighter circumstances.

At first I thought the option to make the focus point disappear when focussing would act as a confirmation, but unfortunately it disappears every time, wether the camera achieved focus or not.

The little dot at the bottom right of the viewfinder is not useful at all in my opinion. When I shoot fast (focus, click, focus, click) and need to keep my eye on the action I find it impossible to look down there every time.


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## Pompo (May 24, 2012)

Sports photographers might not have probs because they shoot with"slower" 2.8 and 4.0 or even 5.6 lenses, as the lens used is darker the the af points get darker and more visible too. When using 1.2 -1.4 1.8 the af point becoesgery and almost transparent in bright daylight.

Yeah, shooting in the dark the af point selectd is almost impossible to see and therefore to constantly keep on top of a moving subject.


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## DustinF00 (May 24, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> DustinF00 said:
> 
> 
> > I have an issue in just single shot mode, where when you half press for focus, the single focus point selected doesnt light up at all, so you have no idea what's trying to focus on where (if you say forget which AF Point you've left selected).
> ...



I am not sure if I explained it right, I want it to flash RED, as its trying to focus, not just flash black.

I've tried a lot of functions in the AF functions in the menu, I dont believe it will make it flash red.


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## Pompo (May 24, 2012)

danqi said:


> A much bigger issue in my opinion is that you do not get any visual focus confirmation in single shot mode, when you are in an environment that is bright enough to make the red light invisible.
> 
> When I have the beep sound off (as I often have to), how do I know if the camera was able to achieve focus? My old 5D Mark I would flash the focus point red as confirmation that it achieved focus. But with the Mark III this works only in low-light situations, as the red light is impossible to see in brighter circumstances.
> 
> ...


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## Pompo (May 24, 2012)

I will wait fornext round of bodies and see if after the 1Dx they will go back to the regular "non - intelligent " viewfinder like on the 1D MIV, why Nikon can do it and Canon can't?!?


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## Chewy734 (May 24, 2012)

I would like to say first, that I'm glad Canon is looking into the issue. It's nice to see a company that listen to its photographers' plight.

That being said, I'm in the camp of people where the black focus points annoys the hell out of me. You have a camera that's a low-light beast, but then you can't figure out what the hell you're focusing on. Having it light up red (even for a second) is necessary, imo.


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## facedodge (May 24, 2012)

It doesn't bother me. I hope any changes that are made are optional.


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## VirtualRain (May 24, 2012)

If you came from the 7D, you know to get around this limitation by using the joystick to move the focus point which would trigger the red illumination. If the focus point was already where you wanted it, you wasted two pushes of the joystick to confirm... if it wasn't... there was no real cost to this. I know it's no consolation to those that miss it, but you do get use to doing this after awhile to ensure your focus point is correctly positioned.

Having said this, if you can press the shutter half way, and move the joystick to trigger the red illumination and not affect your exposure, I'm not sure why the camera can't do this on it's own without impacting exposure.


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## babuljak-dot-com (May 24, 2012)

I am having the same issue in One Shot mode as well. It goes from black to red AFTER it gets in focus to confirm. The hard part is first trying to find which point you have selected. I constantly hit the AF select button on the back to see which point I have selected. The Mark II lights red as soon as you engage the AF. I hope they can fix this too!




DustinF00 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > DustinF00 said:
> ...


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## awinphoto (May 24, 2012)

Those of you guys who have problems with the VF... How many of you guys shot with the 7d and how many of you guys had similar issues?


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## TrumpetPower! (May 24, 2012)

I like the idea of keeping the point(s) illuminated at all times, except to turn them off long enough to get the exposure -- which should be a minuscule fraction of a second.

Canon, are you listening? This should be a trivial fix.

Cheers,

b&


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## THX723 (May 24, 2012)

VirtualRain said:


> Having said this, if you can press the shutter half way, and move the joystick to trigger the red illumination and not affect your exposure, I'm not sure why the camera can't do this on it's own without impacting exposure.


I believe what's being asked to implement is to have the focus point remain lit (not momentary blink) throughout tracking. This would surely affect the exposure metering.


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## acoll123 (May 24, 2012)

I got a 5D3 as a second body for my 1DIV. Most of the time, the black focus point isn't an issue but when I shoot sports and use both at the same time in servo mode and move the focus points around, it is very annoying. The only solace is being able to press the multi-controller to have the focus point reset back to the center point when it gets lost on dark backgrounds. During a typical baseball game I bet I lose the focus point on the 5D3 2-3 times which sometimes but not always results in an OOF shot or I should say, the focus point not where I want/expect it to be.

The red focus points on the 1DIV are great - never lose them in the viewfinder. I hope Canon provides the option at some point in the future.


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## Pompo (May 24, 2012)

acoll123 said:


> I got a 5D3 as a second body for my 1DIV. Most of the time, the black focus point isn't an issue but when I shoot sports and use both at the same time in servo mode and move the focus points around, it is very annoying. The only solace is being able to press the multi-controller to have the focus point reset back to the center point when it gets lost on dark backgrounds. During a typical baseball game I bet I lose the focus point on the 5D3 2-3 times which sometimes but not always results in an OOF shot or I should say, the focus point not where I want/expect it to be.
> 
> The red focus points on the 1DIV are great - never lose them in the viewfinder. I hope Canon provides the option at some point in the future.



+1 There ya go!!! Agreed! a killer AF system yet you miss home shots because a bad VF...isn't life wonderful (sarcasm...)


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## awinphoto (May 24, 2012)

Pompo said:


> acoll123 said:
> 
> 
> > I got a 5D3 as a second body for my 1DIV. Most of the time, the black focus point isn't an issue but when I shoot sports and use both at the same time in servo mode and move the focus points around, it is very annoying. The only solace is being able to press the multi-controller to have the focus point reset back to the center point when it gets lost on dark backgrounds. During a typical baseball game I bet I lose the focus point on the 5D3 2-3 times which sometimes but not always results in an OOF shot or I should say, the focus point not where I want/expect it to be.
> ...



I've shot with the 7d for nearly 3 years, shot track, NCAA football, cars, planes, air force 1, kids running around indoors/outdoors... cant say the VF has every caused me to lose shots... with the 5d3 I feel right at home... Personally I think the red illumination constantly would suck, it would suck having your eyes compensate between the bright red light and the dark scene, suck battery life, suck the LCD/LED life, and could give me a headache staring at that all day. i dont mind they implement a fix, but have it be an optional thing so I dont have to deal with it.


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## pwp (May 24, 2012)

acoll123 said:


> I got a 5D3 as a second body for my 1DIV. Most of the time, the black focus point isn't an issue but when I shoot sports and use both at the same time in servo mode and move the focus points around, it is very annoying. The only solace is being able to press the multi-controller to have the focus point reset back to the center point when it gets lost on dark backgrounds. During a typical baseball game I bet I lose the focus point on the 5D3 2-3 times which sometimes but not always results in an OOF shot or I should say, the focus point not where I want/expect it to be.
> 
> The red focus points on the 1DIV are great - never lose them in the viewfinder. I hope Canon provides the option at some point in the future.



Yep I've also got a 5D3 to partner my Mk4. Last night I shot a black suit function and the 5D3 just about drove me nuts. Even in OneShot mode you have to keep pumping the joystick or AF selection button to see where your AF point is. I missed shots I would have got with previous bodies. Canon have set this camera up with a fantastic AF system but strangled its usability with these insane black AF points. 

This needs a very quick fix from Canon, particularly with the Olympics moments away and plenty of Canon shooters will be shooting 1DX which has an identical Black AF Point functionality. Canon don't need another AF related shemozzle after the mess they made with Mk3 AF. At least the Mk3 has red AF points!

PW


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## wickidwombat (May 25, 2012)

my immediate thought when i read about the exposure from it lighting up red being the issue.
simple solution at least in the interim make a firmware update that makes the point light up in manual mode
where all the exposure is set manually anyway so its a non issue and shooting manual you get to see the point
this would at least make all us manual shooters happy while they think up a clever way around for other modes


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## WoodyWindy (May 25, 2012)

For what it is worth, the old EOS D60 (not the current 60D) did have exposure changes with the illuminated focus point blocks. This was fixed in a firmware update. Unfortunately, the same problem also existed in the contemporary film body - the Elan II/EOS 50 - which didn't have provision for firmware updates. Fortunately, it only was significant in low-light situations.

- Woody -


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## Woody (May 25, 2012)

Doesn't Nikon use the same transmissive LCD thingy in their viewfinders? They have no issues keeping the AF points lit.


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## THX723 (May 25, 2012)

Woody said:


> Doesn't Nikon use the same transmissive LCD thingy in their viewfinders? They have no issues keeping the AF points lit.


Curiously enough, I thought of the same and wondered why that hasn't been a sticking point with Nikonians or has it?

I do have to agree it would sure be nice to be able to see the AF points in low light conditions. In fact, I thought of it as far back as owning the 7D, now with the 5D3, and just the other day playing with the D800.


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## pwp (May 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> DustinF00 said:
> 
> 
> > I have an issue in just single shot mode, where when you half press for focus, the single focus point selected doesnt light up at all, so you have no idea what's trying to focus on where (if you say forget which AF Point you've left selected).
> ...



It doesn't exactly "light up". It's there in disappointing black. It blinks once in red when you half-press the shutter release, hit the joystick or the AF Select point button. You have to get into the habit of lightly "pumping" the shutter release button. Canon, there's a proven way that everyone likes....the OLD way.

I'd be more than happy to take a small, probably barely measurable performance drop in exposure accuracy if I could only see WHERE my AF point was. 

PW


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## llcanon (May 25, 2012)

The Al Servo performance under low light condition is not great anyway, so I don't see an issue for low light shooting. You also don't want to focus on a black shirt which is not contrasty enough for accurate focus. If you shoot a bird in the sky and cannot find the AF point in the sky, then it's on the bird. Feeling annoyed is the most annoying thing and it definitely affect your performance.


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## Pompo (May 25, 2012)

*Re: email Canon and demand a fix if you are't happy with it! (Addy)*

if you aren't happy with the VF af point display email support here, the more people the better hope for a fix... even small improvement, whatever that might be: http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/support/consumer/eos_slr_camera_systems/eos_digital_slr_cameras/eos_5d_mark_iii/form_display/support_by_kb_email


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## briansquibb (May 25, 2012)

Pompo said:


> I will wait fornext round of bodies and see if after the 1Dx they will go back to the regular "non - intelligent " viewfinder like on the 1D MIV, why Nikon can do it and Canon can't?!?



Stupid comment - Canon do it on the 1D4 and then Canon cant do it - oxymoron rules OK


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## kozakm (May 25, 2012)

Yes, this was my very initial complain, but after two week of shooting with 5D III I msut admit I never had a problem. 
Btw, Nikon D800 AF point illumination is a lot worse...


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## eosbit (May 25, 2012)

As a professional wedding photographer, I'm in the camp where this issue is bugging the HELL out of me in single shot mode. Black suits, reception venues... it's a freakin nightmare!

I don't see how it can be difficult to resolve with regard to the exposure. If it were such an issue, then how does the 5D2, and pretty much every camera before it not suffer from the same?

As mentioned earlier, the point should light up as soon as the button is pressed half way, and blink black for a fraction of a second to get exposure. Just like every other camera before it.

I also find it curious that 7D shooters were never bothered by this. To me that says that hardly any professionals use the 7D.


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## briansquibb (May 25, 2012)

eosbit said:


> I also find it curious that 7D shooters were never bothered by this. To me that says that hardly any professionals use the 7D.



Probably not pro wedding photographers maybe wildlife though as black is not such an issue


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## eosbit (May 25, 2012)

True.


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## danski0224 (May 25, 2012)

I have a 7D and the black AF spot "problem" never clicked with me.


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## briansquibb (May 25, 2012)

I would also guess that using fast lens makes the black AF points easier to see. I only use my 7D in good light and with fast lens that seeing the black AF points are not a problem.


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## neuroanatomist (May 25, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I would also guess that using fast lens makes the black AF points easier to see.



To a point - specifically, with an f/2.8 lens the viewfinder is as bright as it's going to get and the AF points are as dark as they're going to get, meaning maximum contrast. If you use lenses faster than f/2.8, the AF points actually get washed out - even though the standard focusing screen means the viewfinder doesn't get any brighter with lenses faster than f/2.8, the additional light does affect the transmissive LCD, such that with an f/1.2 lens, the AF point display appears light gray instead of black.


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## briansquibb (May 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > I would also guess that using fast lens makes the black AF points easier to see.
> ...



My fastest on the 7D is f/2 - and I expect most of the time the 7D will be used with longer lens for sports/wildlife etc


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## fiend (May 25, 2012)

I would really like to have a fix to this. It's annoying as hell. Trying to take pictures with ND-filter is almost impossible!


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## briansquibb (May 25, 2012)

fiend said:


> I would really like to have a fix to this. It's annoying as hell. Trying to take pictures with ND-filter is almost impossible!



Is this for landscapes? If so is it an improvement when tethered to a laptop - does the AF point show black in liveview?


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## sublime LightWorks (May 25, 2012)

eosbit said:


> I also find it curious that 7D shooters were never bothered by this. To me that says that hardly any professionals use the 7D.



That would be a mistaken assumption.


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## awinphoto (May 25, 2012)

eosbit said:


> I also find it curious that 7D shooters were never bothered by this. To me that says that hardly any professionals use the 7D.



Think again, I used the 7d as my primary camera for almost 3 years since it was first released. Never bothered me once. To be fair weddings isn't my bread and butter but whenever I needed focus in dark areas, I never had to fear about missing shots... ever. It just grew to be practically second nature to me.


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## Pompo (May 26, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> eosbit said:
> 
> 
> > I also find it curious that 7D shooters were never bothered by this. To me that says that hardly any professionals use the 7D.
> ...



the 7d didn't have so many af point as the 5D Mark III does...Then again if you shoot stills subject this is not an issue, try shooting something fast, action, it dim light, a concert, a wedding dance even which aint fast at all, then you will see how bad this is


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## Cyrano (May 26, 2012)

Pompo said:


> ... Then again if you shoot stills subject this is not an issue, try shooting something fast, action, it dim light, a concert, a wedding dance even which aint fast at all, then you will see how bad this is



I shoot ballet dancers -- often in black leotards, running and jumping on a dark stage, under low light. I shoot in AI Servo mode, with a single AF point manually selected. 

I'm very concerned. I have a 1DX on order, and it may prove unsuitable for my primary use.


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## pwp (May 26, 2012)

Cyrano said:


> Pompo said:
> 
> 
> > ... Then again if you shoot stills subject this is not an issue, try shooting something fast, action, it dim light, a concert, a wedding dance even which aint fast at all, then you will see how bad this is
> ...


Yes, I'm in a similar predicament. Last night I shot a low light black suit event, mostly bouncing flash. Just for the exercise I put the 300 f/2.8 on the 5D3, cranked iso up to 6400 and picked out candid AL portraits of the guests. I wanted to see how AI Servo with single point selected would perform. Compared to the 1D4 in identical circumstances the 5D3 knocked my socks off. Where I managed to keep sight of the AF point the keepers rate was way above my expectations. If we had the red AF points visible, the only lost shots would have been from motion blur. I was astounded.

So what a pity Canon has set this camera up with such strong AF and all but murdered it's usability. Cancel the 1DX pre-order? It's a tough call...

PW


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## briansquibb (May 26, 2012)

pwp said:


> Compared to the 1D4 in identical circumstances the 5D3 knocked my socks off.



Low light AF on the 1D4 is not stellar - I noticed it in contrast to the 5DII which of course is class leading in low light.


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## distant.star (May 26, 2012)

.
"I have been given a bit of information as to why it may be difficult to address."

The historical imperative.

In WWII the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers had a motto:

"The difficult we do immediately. The impossible takes a little longer."

Maybe Canon should bring in the Corp on a consulting basis.


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## John Thomas (May 26, 2012)

There are two paths which I see now:

1. Keep the AF point(s) lit and adjust for the amount of (over)exposure. Complicated, because there are many lookup tables to combine: many AF points, many AF modes (pinpoint, single, expansion etc.) and many exposure programs. However _*if*_ the amount of light which each red square emits is additive (ie. the amount of light of 2 (adiacent) AF points is double than one AF point), or obeys to a single simple rule, then the things are fixable.

2. Alternate the phases: In fact, what means "AI Servo" - or rather "_continous_" exposure?

a.) Turn down the AF points (they will be black)
b.) Get the exposure
c.) (After, let's say) 300 ms turn the AF points on (they will became red)
d.) Keep them red for another 300 ms
e.) Go to a.)

The net effect is that the AF points will blink red while the metering is done inbetween. 

Focusing should be done in the best case in parallel. Anyway It is not affected by the light in the way in which we discuss it here.

The second solution will have the advantages that A.) we'll see the camera is "working" (focusing, metering etc.) because the AF points are blinking and B.) we'll see also the subject between the AF point's blinks (here perhaps is better to turn off completely the AF point).

Thoughts? Comments?

HTH


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## mrjamiegilbert (May 26, 2012)

John Thomas said:


> There are two paths which I see now:
> 
> 1. Keep the AF point(s) lit and adjust for the amount of (over)exposure. Complicated, because there are many lookup tables to combine: many AF points, many AF modes (pinpoint, single, expansion etc.) and many exposure programs. However _*if*_ the amount of light which each red square emits is additive (ie. the amount of light of 2 (adiacent) AF points is double than one AF point), or obeys to a single simple rule, then the things are fixable.
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly. I'm sure there are a bunch of tricks Canon could pull to make this work. What immediately came to my mind was either turning off the light *just* before acquiring the exposure (surely should only take a few milliseconds? But would increase shutter lag..), or strobing the light so it appears constant to the user but would actually be providing enough information to the camera to expose properly under any combination of focus points, if there was enough processing power to do so. Or as you say HTH, just flashing the points.. Even as a menu option I would choose this. Anything would be better than nothing.

I'm heading out to shoot a concert tonight. I expect the black servo points will be an annoyance


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## fiend (May 26, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> fiend said:
> 
> 
> > I would really like to have a fix to this. It's annoying as hell. Trying to take pictures with ND-filter is almost impossible!
> ...



No, this was in Studio. Trying to use NDfilter for a shallow depth of field which was almost impossible. I have to guess where the focuspoint was. If I pushed the "fokuspoint-change"-button they all illuminated and I could see them but that don't work that I have to press them first to see where my focuspoint is.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 26, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> Those of you guys who have problems with the VF... How many of you guys shot with the 7d and how many of you guys had similar issues?


 
I have the 7D and its not a big issue because its no good in low light in any event, so I do not use it in dark situations. However, with the 5D MK III being a low light camera and able to shoot in almost darkness, I'd like to light up the focus point like the 1D MK IV, and the Nikon D800.

There is a workaround, briefly press the AF point selection button, and all points light with the selected ones flashing, and try to put the point on the subject before they turn off. Then remember where its at and don't move, or it will focus on something else. Its really unworkable.

I returned mine and bought a slightly used1D MK IV for the same price, and like it better. Its not as good in low light, particularly at focusing, but I've been using it at up to ISO 12800 and its produces a reasonable image. I can also AF at f/8 when I'm using TC's. Its no wonder dealers sells out as soon as they are in stock.

I'd like to keep it and my D800, but one has to go, I can't justify having a duplicate set of high end lenses. I just can't decide which, but I do find myself grabbing the D800 because its smaller.


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## Cyrano (May 26, 2012)

*Use Manual exposure until the metering question is sorted*

One possible way of handling the exposure metering problem with keeping the AF points illuminated during AI Servo: do nothing to fix the metering -- accept that the metering won't work properly, and shoot in Manual exposure mode. 

Of course this would not be a viable long-term solution for everyone -- but for those situations where Manual exposure is used, this might permit Canon to provide an interim fix quickly. 

When I shoot ballet, it's 100% Manual exposure. For me, having the AF points illuminated continuously at the expense of impaired metering would be an acceptable solution for my primary application of the 1DX.


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## Cyrano (May 26, 2012)

pwp said:


> ... Compared to the 1D4 in identical circumstances the 5D3 knocked my socks off. Where I managed to keep sight of the AF point the keepers rate was way above my expectations. If we had the red AF points visible, the only lost shots would have been from motion blur. I was astounded.
> 
> So what a pity Canon has set this camera up with such strong AF and all but murdered it's usability. Cancel the 1DX pre-order? It's a tough call...
> 
> PW



You've just confirmed my fondest hopes and my worst fears. 

The 1D4 does a great job overall for my dance work, but I lose too many shots to imperfect AF when the dancers are dimly lit and wearing low-contrast costumes. By all accounts, the AF system in the 1DX is brilliant in low light ... but if one can't keep it trained on the subject, it's useless.


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## briansquibb (May 27, 2012)

fiend said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > fiend said:
> ...



Turn down the lights? Move them further away?


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## awinphoto (May 27, 2012)

Hey guys, just playing around with my 5d3 and found a way that suits me, don't know about you. Set the multicontroller to select AF points, and shot Ai focus... Was shooting birds in a dim room and birds don't like to stay still. Anywho as I moved the points around with the one touch movements the light illuminate and pumping the shutter to lock focus illuminated the points. Once the composition is correct, bam. Still don't get how people lose shots but try it out. I feel this is almost overkill for my taste but keeping the AF points moving, with all those AF points, is probably best.


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## Pompo (May 27, 2012)

Cyrano said:


> pwp said:
> 
> 
> > ... Compared to the 1D4 in identical circumstances the 5D3 knocked my socks off. Where I managed to keep sight of the AF point the keepers rate was way above my expectations. If we had the red AF points visible, the only lost shots would have been from motion blur. I was astounded.
> ...



Dunno what to do either, I'm gonna wait and see if Canon can somehow improve this dumb a$$ "intelligent" view finder before I forkout $7000...It is crazy that the 1Dx is supposed to be great at low light, yet you won't be able to use it successfully because the dang AF points


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## fiend (May 27, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> fiend said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



Not an option  the lights are turned down to the lowest level and I don't want to move them further away. I want to be able to use ND-filters to get that 1.2 - 2.5 aperture in my studio when I want to. And that's kind of hard to achive without the ND-filters even if Im at ISO 50. (which is a must even if I use a 8x ND-filter).

I would like to see where my Focus point is. And in AI Servo-mode its REALLY impossible to see any focus point because it doesn't light up at any state anyhow. They are just all black against black..


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## bornshooter (May 27, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > I would also guess that using fast lens makes the black AF points easier to see.
> ...


Well jeff ascough thinks other wise when using fast primes but what does he know lol he doesn't shoot test charts like you lol


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## briansquibb (May 27, 2012)

fiend said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > fiend said:
> ...



The 7D has the option to show only the in use AF points - not the same for the 5D?


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## fiend (May 27, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> fiend said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



And that doesn't help me either, since the black point is black against the black background.


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## briansquibb (May 27, 2012)

fiend said:


> And that doesn't help me either, since the black point is black against the black background.



I had my red dot AF invisible yesterday in the strong sunlight. No system is perfect unfortunately


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## fiend (May 27, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> fiend said:
> 
> 
> > And that doesn't help me either, since the black point is black against the black background.
> ...



Still want an option to turn on the focuspoint/have the focus point light up when I hit focus in AI servo-mode


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## pwp (May 27, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I had my red dot AF invisible yesterday in the strong sunlight. No system is perfect unfortunately.


No system is perfect, from manufactured goods to political systems. But in the context of this discussion, it's clear that Canon inexplicably let go the highly workable red AF point system for a comprehensively inferior, deeply unpopular, black AF point system. Sigh...And just as the Canon PR machine thought they had put the 1D Mk3 AF debacle behind them they've got yet another AF related bomb to defuse. 

And what a shame. My 5D3 AF is the best I have ever experienced in either OneShot or AI servo mode in bright light or dimly function rooms, _except _when I lose sight of the selected AF point. And that's far too often. 

Canon have re-written the paradox manual; a brilliant new AF system throttled by a simple, wrong GUI decision.

PW


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## briansquibb (May 27, 2012)

pwp said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > I had my red dot AF invisible yesterday in the strong sunlight. No system is perfect unfortunately.
> ...



The 7D users have managed with this arrangement for 3 years without it becoming an issue. Perhaps Canon had not taken into account the different shooting habits of 5D and 7D users


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## neuroanatomist (May 27, 2012)

pwp said:


> ... a comprehensively inferior, deeply unpopular, black AF point system.



_Comprehensively_ inferior, i.e. in every way? Bit harsh, don't you think? As stated, there was no hue and cry over the same system in the 7D. Does everyone _really_ want that dense array of AF points etched into the viewfinder? Think it's deeply unpopular with people who switched back and forth between the standard and -D grid focus screen? Nobody likes the ability to display an electronic level in the VF?


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## danski0224 (May 27, 2012)

So, where are all of the professionals that tested this camera along the way and why wasn't the "problem" flushed out before now?


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## neuroanatomist (May 27, 2012)

bornshooter said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > To a point - specifically, with an f/2.8 lens the viewfinder is as bright as it's going to get and the AF points are as dark as they're going to get, meaning maximum contrast. If you use lenses faster than f/2.8, the AF points actually get washed out - even though the standard focusing screen means the viewfinder doesn't get any brighter with lenses faster than f/2.8, the additional light does affect the transmissive LCD, such that with an f/1.2 lens, the AF point display appears light gray instead of black.
> ...



How, exactly, does Jeff Ascough disagree with the basic physical properties of the way the standard focus screen and transmissive LCD work?


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## pwp (May 27, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> pwp said:
> 
> 
> > ... a comprehensively inferior, deeply unpopular, black AF point system.
> ...


Comprehensively? In every way? Well yes, but I'm referring exactly to the black AF points, nothing else. You can run my post through the Oxford dictionary if you like, but look past my lack of language mastery and concider what I'm trying to communicate.

I stand by my statement and it's backed by direct experience. I've worked a busy daily schedule with 1D4 & 5D3 side by side for a three weeks now in all sorts of shooting environments. The 5D3 AF system is powerful and pleasingly accurate, all the way out to the outer AF points. It outperforms the 1D4 in most situations. But it's galling that full access to its power is denied because of the black AF points. I shoot in dynamic, not static situations and have either lost shots or missed peak moments because I've lost sight of my selected AF point. 

Not really sure what you are saying about the standard and D grid focus screen and the level in the VF. These functions can be chosen if required/desired. Of course nobody wants that dense array lit up full time, nobody is saying otherwise. We just need to keep track of our selected AF point. Red has always worked, and works "comprehensively" better than black. 

Yes, the black can be tolerated, but as my Uncle Bob once told me, "Why not travel first class?" Ahem....it's a metaphor.

PW


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## briansquibb (May 27, 2012)

pwp said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > pwp said:
> ...



I think you mean "Red has always worked, and works "comprehensively" better than black for you"

7D black worked comprehensively better for me than the 1D red yesterday in the bright sunlight


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## pwp (May 27, 2012)

Peace brothers. It's all getting a bit dogmatic. Myself included. 
It's a useful discussion which I think I'd better exit from.

See you on another thread.

PW


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## neuroanatomist (May 27, 2012)

pwp said:


> Not really sure what you are saying about the standard and D grid focus screen and the level in the VF. These functions can be chosen if required/desired. Of course nobody wants that dense array lit up full time, nobody is saying otherwise. We just need to keep track of our selected AF point. Red has always worked, and works "comprehensively" better than black.



Those features are possible _only_ because of the transmissive LCD. Could you 'turn off' (render invisible) the AF points or spot metering circle on the 1DIV? No. Could it show only cross-type points for a given lens? No. The AF point array on the 1DIV (and all other cameras except the 7D) is etched in place. As a result, the red illumination is more effective, because the etched surface provides an opportunity for enhanced reflection of the red light. It's a trade off, yes, but IMO the benefits significantly outweigh the losses. For you, it sounds like that's not the case, so I guess you'll be skipping the 1D X and keeping the 1DIV (or picking up a 1DsIII if you want/need FF).


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## John Thomas (May 27, 2012)

> 7D black worked comprehensively better for me than the 1D red yesterday in the bright sunlight



This is yet another reason for which a blinking solution (black-red-black) of the AF point is better.


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## Pompo (May 28, 2012)

pwp said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > I had my red dot AF invisible yesterday in the strong sunlight. No system is perfect unfortunately.
> ...



EXACTLY how I feel... +1


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## Axilrod (May 29, 2012)

I honestly don't even think I noticed that they weren't red until I heard other people complaining about it. I usually only used the center point with the 5DII so whether or not it was red was irrelevant. But with the 5DIII the autofocus is amazingly accurate, I don't need a red confirmation of how accurate it is. But I guess for some it's important, but it seems like some people are just using it as an excuse to bitch about the 5DIII.


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## Pompo (May 29, 2012)

I just dont bitch without a reason I have better things to do


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## UngerPhotography (May 29, 2012)

Axilrod said:


> I honestly don't even think I noticed that they weren't red until I heard other people complaining about it. I usually only used the center point with the 5DII so whether or not it was red was irrelevant. But with the 5DIII the autofocus is amazingly accurate, I don't need a red confirmation of how accurate it is. But I guess for some it's important, but it seems like some people are just using it as an excuse to bitch about the 5DIII.



I just recently added a 7D to go along with my 5D II, and didn't notice the lack of blinking red in AI Servo mode until I read about it in the manual. For what I shoot, it doesn't bother me.

That said, there are people who like the blinking red and are used to it. It also seems strange that it is not an option. I do think people are overreacting about selling the camera off or switching brands because of it, but I suppose that it one way to get Canon to pay attention.

Strange though that there was no out roar about it in the 7D, and professionals were certainly using it. I have seen more than a handful of Getty photographers at various sports games using the 7D.


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## briansquibb (May 29, 2012)

UngerPhotography said:


> Axilrod said:
> 
> 
> > I honestly don't even think I noticed that they weren't red until I heard other people complaining about it. I usually only used the center point with the 5DII so whether or not it was red was irrelevant. But with the 5DIII the autofocus is amazingly accurate, I don't need a red confirmation of how accurate it is. But I guess for some it's important, but it seems like some people are just using it as an excuse to bitch about the 5DIII.
> ...



+1


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 30, 2012)

UngerPhotography said:


> Axilrod said:
> 
> 
> > I honestly don't even think I noticed that they weren't red until I heard other people complaining about it. I usually only used the center point with the 5DII so whether or not it was red was irrelevant. But with the 5DIII the autofocus is amazingly accurate, I don't need a red confirmation of how accurate it is. But I guess for some it's important, but it seems like some people are just using it as an excuse to bitch about the 5DIII.
> ...


 
Have you actually compared a 7D with a 5D MK III? I have! They are not the same. The 7D lights up nicely in one shot mode for about 2 seconds, you can see the selected AF point clearly.

The 5D MK III, on the other hand, has 61 tiny AF points that are difficult to see, and the light flickers for maybe 1/10 sec, you don't have time to make sure your subject is under the tiny point, and, in low light, thats the only chance you get.

Those who have not used both seem to have lots of expert opinions!


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## briansquibb (May 30, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> UngerPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > Axilrod said:
> ...



The 5DIII I borrow uses expansion so you get the cluster of points


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## Bosman (May 30, 2012)

UngerPhotography said:


> Axilrod said:
> 
> 
> > I honestly don't even think I noticed that they weren't red until I heard other people complaining about it. I usually only used the center point with the 5DII so whether or not it was red was irrelevant. But with the 5DIII the autofocus is amazingly accurate, I don't need a red confirmation of how accurate it is. But I guess for some it's important, but it seems like some people are just using it as an excuse to bitch about the 5DIII.
> ...


Thats because it is a sports camera, a wedding photographer shoots at night too and needs the focus point illumination. I still like my 1d focus point lighting up for sports because i sometimes do go off center.


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## briansquibb (May 30, 2012)

Bosman said:


> Thats because it is a sports camera, a wedding photographers shoots at night too and need the focus point illumination.



It is a shame when the 5DII is still best in class for low light shooting


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## MazV-L (May 30, 2012)

Sorry if this has been covered, I haven't read all the posts. I use the joystick to select the AF point on my 5Diii, then if I want the point I've selected to light-up red I only have to half press the shutter.


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## risc32 (May 31, 2012)

I'm with the people who wish the AF points where easier to find in low light conditions. A thought, if the black af points where getting it done, then why let us use red ones on image review on the lcd? perhaps those should be black as well.  my other canon cameras use some variation of red points. The 5dmk3 is the first camera i've used that is good enough to very reliably use AF points other than the center. And that's great, as often i don't want to slap the target dead center. that meant cropping. So now it's great, I have 22mp and i get to use more of them.


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## bloodstupid (Jun 1, 2012)

The light doenst need to be on all the time. Just a short flash upon AF-start..as it was with the 5D. And light metering can happen before and after the short AF point flash.


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## pwp (Jun 1, 2012)

bloodstupid said:


> The light doesn't need to be on all the time. Just a short flash upon AF-start..as it was with the 5D. And light metering can happen before and after the short AF point flash.


I don't know if you shoot fast action sports but it's valuable and highly productive to have the red AF point stay illuminated on as it does on the 1D4 when shooting AI Servo with a single selected focus point or cluster. You simply _have _to keep sight of your selected point and keep it on the part of the action you're tracking. It all happens blindingly fast. By the time you re-activate a disappearing focus point the touchdown or goal has happened, the hurdles race has flashed past you, the race car has vanished...you get the idea? Constantly visible AF points are one of an action shooters prime productivity tools.

PW


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## bloodstupid (Jun 1, 2012)

Ya well i never worked with a 1 series so i dont know about that much comfort. But if the illumination is affecting light metering i would be happy enough to have that short AF point flash as soon as i hit the AF button. Just as it was with the MII. But having nothing at all sucks just as having to push the AF selector button as a workaround before pressing the focus button.


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## Tcapp (Jun 1, 2012)

pwp said:


> bloodstupid said:
> 
> 
> > The light doesn't need to be on all the time. Just a short flash upon AF-start..as it was with the 5D. And light metering can happen before and after the short AF point flash.
> ...



Action shooter AND wedding shooters alike!


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## Cyrano (Jun 3, 2012)

pwp said:


> ... You simply _have _to keep sight of your selected point and keep it on the part of the action you're tracking. It all happens blindingly fast. By the time you re-activate a disappearing focus point the touchdown or goal has happened, the hurdles race has flashed past you, the race car has vanished...



I can't imagine how it will be possible to shoot ballet without having the selected AF point always visible:


The position of the subject relative to the frame changes constantly, and in the blink of an eye.

Using automatic AF point selection is not an option. For my shooting conditions, DOF is so shallow that if the AF locks on the male dancer standing immediately behind the woman he is partnering, instead of on the woman, the shot is ruined. Even if the intended subject is a single dancer, there are often other dancers nearby in the frame, at varying distances from the camera. 



Even using the center AF point would often be difficult without it being visible, because in many cases, *everything* is dark -- the dancers' costumes, the stage, the backdrop, and the house. In such conditions, one can't see the edges of the viewfinder frame -- making it hard to tell where the center of the frame is.


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## Pompo (Jun 12, 2012)

*Re: ordered a 3 stops ND filter for bright daylight shootings*

I have just ordered a 3 stops ND filter for bright daylight shootings, the black af points should be as visible as when using a 2.8 lens with it, hopefully the AF won't lose too much speed...

It isn't a fix but if it should improve shooting in daylight quite a bit with fast primes at least.


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## Cyrano (Jun 30, 2012)

I've just used a 5D3, and my fears were confirmed. The display of AF points cripples this camera for much of my dance work. 

Now I'm really depressed. My 1D4 is aging; there are no new 1D4s to be had (as the model is discontinued); and the 1DX won't work for me.


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## Pompo (Jun 30, 2012)

Cyrano said:


> I've just used a 5D3, and my fears were confirmed. The display of AF points cripples this camera for much of my dance work.
> 
> Now I'm really depressed. My 1D4 is aging; there are no new 1D4s to be had (as the model is discontinued); and the 1DX won't work for me.



same here on movie sets where is dark I cannot see the dang af points, I don't think I'l get the 1Dx either, I just hope canon will go back to the "regular" non-intelligent(!) viewfinder next round! I still cannot believe how crippled this is...


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## Zouk (Jun 30, 2012)

pwp said:


> I don't know if you shoot fast action sports but it's valuable and highly productive to have the red AF point stay illuminated on as it does on the 1D4 when shooting AI Servo with a single selected focus point or cluster. You simply _have _to keep sight of your selected point and keep it on the part of the action you're tracking. It all happens blindingly fast. By the time you re-activate a disappearing focus point the touchdown or goal has happened, the hurdles race has flashed past you, the race car has vanished...you get the idea? Constantly visible AF points are one of an action shooters prime productivity tools.
> 
> PW



Is there no option to keep the point from disappearing during continuous focus? When I saw this video, I thought that the point would stay visible during AF tracking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=frTjF-qIuVg#t=96s

...but if the point disappears once you start tracking, I'm going to call in _right now_ and cancel my 1DX order.

Trevor


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## Pompo (Jun 30, 2012)

Zouk said:


> pwp said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know if you shoot fast action sports but it's valuable and highly productive to have the red AF point stay illuminated on as it does on the 1D4 when shooting AI Servo with a single selected focus point or cluster. You simply _have _to keep sight of your selected point and keep it on the part of the action you're tracking. It all happens blindingly fast. By the time you re-activate a disappearing focus point the touchdown or goal has happened, the hurdles race has flashed past you, the race car has vanished...you get the idea? Constantly visible AF points are one of an action shooters prime productivity tools.
> ...



you better hurry up and cancel it then! I use the 85 1.2 in bright daylight and even then the af are so freaking hard to see that is a joke! With a 2.8 lens its gets easier BUT the red in serve disappears no matter what....


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## Zouk (Jun 30, 2012)

Pompo said:


> you better hurry up and cancel it then! I use the 85 1.2 in bright daylight and even then the af are so freaking hard to see that is a joke! With a 2.8 lens its gets easier BUT the red in serve disappears no matter what....



Okay, just so I have this straight:

The red illumination turns off, but the black AF point + surrounding assist points stay?

Fortunately the lens that is going to live on my 1DX would be my 400 2.8... but still. :-X

Trevor


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## Pompo (Jun 30, 2012)

Read the review her the vf is just like the 5d3 http://blog.martinbaileyphotography.com/2012/06/27/podcast-341-canon-eos-1d-x-digital-slr-review/

No Illuminated Focus Point in AI Servo

"There is one annoying thing that was fixed in the 1D Mark IV, but is currently regressed in the 1D X, and that is that the focus point that has focus is not illuminated as the subject moves around the frame. I really liked this functionality in the 1D Mark IV, but it’s gone again. The Canon Rumors Web site says it’s something to do with the red light affecting the exposure calculation, and that Canon may be working on a fix, but no details are available as of June 2012."


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## Zouk (Jun 30, 2012)

Pompo said:


> Read the review her the vf is just like the 5d3 http://blog.martinbaileyphotography.com/2012/06/27/podcast-341-canon-eos-1d-x-digital-slr-review/
> 
> No Illuminated Focus Point in AI Servo
> 
> "There is one annoying thing that was fixed in the 1D Mark IV, but is currently regressed in the 1D X, and that is that the focus point that has focus is not illuminated as the subject moves around the frame. I really liked this functionality in the 1D Mark IV, but it’s gone again. The Canon Rumors Web site says it’s something to do with the red light affecting the exposure calculation, and that Canon may be working on a fix, but no details are available as of June 2012."



That tells me it's not _illuminated_ - but my question is, does the black square on the VF that represents the AF point go away, or is it just no longer illuminated?

I've never been able to glean that information - the SNR of threads discussing it is too unfavorable.

Trevor


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## Pompo (Jun 30, 2012)

Zouk said:


> Pompo said:
> 
> 
> > Read the review her the vf is just like the 5d3 http://blog.martinbaileyphotography.com/2012/06/27/podcast-341-canon-eos-1d-x-digital-slr-review/
> ...




It doesn't actually go away but if you are shooting in a dark scene it's like it does! It becomes almost invisible when placed over a certain color or texture...so you have to worry where your dang thing is and you endup missing the shots


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## Zouk (Jun 30, 2012)

Pompo said:


> It doesn't actually go away but if you are shooting in a dark scene it's like it does! It becomes almost invisible when placed over a certain color or texture...so you have to worry where your dang thing is and you endup missing the shots



Okay - that's exactly what I wanted to know. Thanks. 

Trevor


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 30, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> The 5DIII I borrow uses expansion so you get the cluster of points


 
You have many options for setting AF points, single and clusters as well, but they are all difficult to see in low light, and when using just one, nearly impossible.

I'd like to place the select point over the subject, not half press the shutter just to find out its missed the subject. When the subject is moving, its useless to try it that way.


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## briansquibb (Jun 30, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > The 5DIII I borrow uses expansion so you get the cluster of points
> ...



Bring back the tried and tested ways. Little red dots work even in a low light disco like this one from last night where even the smoke machine didn't stop the 1D4 AF. Got low ISO as I was using my 3 x 580EX light stick plus 580EX on shoe


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