# Fact from Fantasy?



## YuengLinger (Mar 12, 2017)

Most of the gear I own is in the "big seller" category: lenses and bodies familiar to many CR members, reviewed by popular and generally reputable review sites and individuals.

However, I recently picked up a Sigma 180mm f/2.8 APO OS. The lens was rarely reviewed; despite popping up quite a bit in Google, most of the "reviews" are rehashes of the original press release. By coincidence, just in the past day or two a new thread was started about this lens, the first discussion of it in years on CR. The OP was asking for those with personal experience for a comparison between the Sigma and the Canon 180mm f/3.5.

What surprises me, now that I have a piece of gear relatively few people buy, try, or know anything about, is how much completely wrong info is so quickly passed around. Ok, I'm naïve. But the number of posts with fragments of poorly remembered bits of reviews or rumors or just complete BS is incredible.

So, I'm asking other CR members to talk about HOW DO YOU SEPARATE FACT FROM FANTASY (aka BS) when making gear purchasing decisions? Many of us are now living in areas hundreds of miles from the nearest camera shop. 

Thanks!


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## Tyroop (Mar 12, 2017)

I tend to rely on my sixth sense/gut instinct/intuition, whatever you want to call it, to sense when I can trust what someone says. On one popular photography site the author raves about every single product, encourages his readers to buy it, and conveniently gives a link to one of his many affiliate sites. I don't trust a word he says because obviously his only concern is earning money through affiliates. I haven't been to his site for many years now.

On the other hand, when I read something by someone like Roger Cicala it's obvious that 1)he has a superb technical understanding and 2)he's being completely honest with no selfish motives.

If people are just repeating things they have heard elsewhere and don't even own the product, they have zero credibility in my eyes. I see this too. People seem eager to want to reply to forum questions and when they don't have any personal thoughts or opinions they just regurgitate something they've seen elsewhere.

The other way I make purchasing decisions, and I know this sounds weird, is to look at sample images. When I used to buy audio equipment I listened to it first. Technical specifications and other people's opinions don't necessarily mean that I will like something. There is a search facility on PBase so you can see images taken with a certain camera or lens, which I have used quite a lot.

I agree that the amount of conflicting information on the Internet these days does make decision making difficult if you rely only on other peoples views and reviews. Whatever you look for - whether it is camera gear, hotels or car tires - you will fine really positive reviews alongside equally negative ones.


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## IglooEater (Mar 12, 2017)

Basically I do the same as you. Starting by finding the press release to find out what the manufacturer says helps eliminate rehash "reviews". Then I google violently to find every reference to the article on the internet and compare notes. I like to hear a consensus in the conclusions between reviewers, but more than that I like to read arguments and study tests. If all you have is conclusions you're basically stuck counting noses, which is only a little helpful. The more popular items become more difficult because there is simply too much info on them.


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## chrysoberyl (Mar 12, 2017)

Ockham's razor. I gather the maximum amount of data from what I consider reliable sources, then eliminate the inconsistent data. What's left is the simplest answer.

Sometimes I just go for it, though, as when I ordered a Rockinon SP 14mm 2.4.

John


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## Dylan777 (Mar 12, 2017)

I no longer wait for reviews.

I'm more look into higher price products with specs I'm looking for. Always buy from authorized dealers, hand on products MYSELF. Review the results, good or bad? I should know myself.


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## IglooEater (Mar 12, 2017)

Dylan777 said:


> I no longer wait for reviews.
> 
> I'm more look into higher price products with specs I'm looking for. Always buy from authorized dealers, hand on products MYSELF. Review the results, good or bad? I should know myself.



Now that's a fair enough way about it. Especially with the fantastic return policies many stores have these days.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 12, 2017)

If I say it, its fact! If you say the same thing, its Fantasy  That's human nature!

I take reviews from owners with no record of test experience with a grain of salt. I have no idea as to their ability to properly setup a test, so I mentally class the opinions as unreliable. If they provide good detail about their setup and technique, then I can better classify them as expert or incompetent like me.


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## Ozarker (Mar 15, 2017)

I read Lens Rentals and Dustin Abbott. Then I keep in mind that any purchase I make is probably going to be the only purchase I make for a particular focal length, so cost is not a factor. However, I must admit that I am very heavily biased towards Canon products and always buy "L" lenses if the purchase is Canon.

I do own the Tamron 15-30mms, but I think it is going to be the last non-Canon lens I will buy.

For bodies I have decided to never buy lower than the 5D line and to skip at least one generation.

Like others here, I try to avoid sites that nearly always say the latest thing is the best... while providing links to stores. One of those sites is real bad about it.


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## geekpower (Mar 15, 2017)

if people are simply expressing their opinions it can be impossible.

"i love cilantro!"

"i hate cilantro!"

neither tells you what cilantro tastes like, or if you will like it, even if both are sincere.

certain things may tip you off that an opinion isn't fully formed or based on personal experience, such as repeating verbiage from add copy or other reviews, but even then, it proves nothing, as they could be right by accident.

on the other hand, if real evidence is presented to support an opinion, it becomes easier to judge the conclusion based on the thoroughness of the tests, soundness of the logic, etc, but this still requires the reader to be fairly competent, and while it is easy to see the flaws in the reasoning of a less intelligent person, it is difficult to impossible to see a hole in the logic of a much smarter person. for example, i could read a research paper on astrophysics and have no way to judge whether it came to the right conclusions or not. trusting an authority is not the same as understanding them.

so, short answer, in many cases it is impossible to judge anything that others say. which makes you wonder why we keep trying?

for bonus points, think about Poe's Law, fake news, alternative facts, etc.


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## Pookie (Mar 15, 2017)

Since my last response was removed... I'll state it again.

This site is rife with opinions of gear that members neither own or use... some here have no problem "reviewing" or giving "opinion" about lenses and cameras they have never laid hands on. You yourself YuengLinger have made some pretty nonsensical claims about the 50L so I find it a real laugh when now you start this thread about "Fact from fantasy?".

It is the number one reason I will attach a few images taken with either the camera or lens I am speaking of. I use them daily in my line of work. Not just rented or used once but daily, for years. Reality always takes precedence over parroted technical data and MTF charts. You know why you won't hear me comment on the 500mm or 600mm or TS lenses?!?! I don't own them !!!! I can read BS reviews like everyone else, I won't go spouting off "opinions" about a piece of gear if I never use them.


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## YuengLinger (Mar 16, 2017)

Pookie said:


> Since my last response was removed... I'll state it again.
> 
> This site is rife with opinions of gear that members neither own or use... some here have no problem "reviewing" or giving "opinion" about lenses and cameras they have never laid hands on. You yourself YuengLinger have made some pretty nonsensical claims about the 50L so I find it a real laugh when now you start this thread about "Fact from fantasy?".
> 
> It is the number one reason I will attach a few images taken with either the camera or lens I am speaking of. I use them daily in my line of work. Not just rented or used once but daily, for years. Reality always takes precedence over parroted technical data and MTF charts. You know why you won't hear me comment on the 500mm or 600mm or TS lenses?!?! I don't own them !!!! I can read BS reviews like everyone else, I won't go spouting off "opinions" about a piece of gear if I never use them.



Without going through my posts to find poor wording, I've never said I tried the 50mm 1.2 myself, but I have laid out why I chose not to buy it--poor reviews, lack of a floating element, many, many poor sample images (compared to any other of the many Canon lenses I've checked). Many images I saw had missed focus or bokeh that was not "dreamy" or "creamy." Some were impressive, but most were off. If I remember correctly, you have suggested that the lens takes a lot of effort to master. But my 85mm 1.2 and my 35mm 1.4 II work great out of the box, with just a little AFMA. No, I have no personal experience, but I don't buy something that suspect just to try and return--I have respect for the stores that sell gear. I buy with high hopes and expectations.

I do remember making a comment to the effect that you seem to take the same photo over and over, which was a jab you didn't deserve, but it was probably in response to a very cynical, arrogant post of your own. Your current signature indicates you still feel that you are slumming when you comment here.

Since you decided to scold me in this thread, rather than the one mentioned above (from a couple months back), I responded here. But my intention was to get some helpful input for myself and others searching CR and the web for info to make purchase decisions. Maybe I've been misled about the 50mm 1.2, though members here who I do respect have not been thrilled, and a highly successful wedding photographer in our area confirmed pretty much every negative issue that turned me off--after really wanting to make it work for herself. 

Again, I'm sorry for the jab about your photos, Pookie. Note I had no idea you posted in this thread before the one I'm replying to, so if there was a complaint, it did not come from me.

One other thing--I've posted quite a bit here, and I've made a few mistakes. As soon as they were brought to my attention, or I learned elsewhere I was wrong, I got right back on that thread and retracted and apologized. I'll do the same thing next time I make a mistake!


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## Hillsilly (Mar 16, 2017)

Virtually all modern gear is designed appropriately for the specs and price point that it occupies. So a bit of common sense and perspective is generally all that is needed. 

FWIW, I purchased a used Sigma 300mm F/4 APO lens last year to use for landscape work with a Fuji mirrorless camera (almost always tripod mounted - so I'm giving the lens the best opportunity to show what it can do). The reviews at the time were generally average to slightly positive, but on a digital camera, it works great. This makes me wonder how much bad gear is really out there.


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## AlanF (Mar 16, 2017)

Scientific papers/reviews go through rigorous peer review by editors and referees to separate fact from fantasy. The result? Depending on the scientific area, a small to large number contain significant errors and some are completely wrong and have to be retracted. And some published ones are even fraudulent. Further, the most desirable journals in which to publish, such as _Science_ or _Nature_, have the highest numbers of retractions. So, I teach my students not to believe what they read without careful circumspection. And, if you have to do that with a system that attempts to eliminate error and bias, then beware of unregulated websites and reviewers.


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## Hillsilly (Mar 16, 2017)

Don't knock scientific journals - They can be used for good. I'm just about to submit a new batch to some OMICS magazines on "Why fat is good for your heart", "Chocolate: the new miracle food", "Exercise with caution: Why all unnecessary exertion MUST be avoided" and "How ice cream brain freeze reduces brain swelling and improves mental acuity". Not only will these articles be picked up by the Buzzfeeds, CNNs etc of the world (and make everyone happy for a few days), but doctors will be forced to advise patients accordingly because they'll appear in peer-reviewed journals with very serious titles.


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## Mikehit (Mar 16, 2017)

Most reputable gear nowadays, and that includes nearly all gear from established manufacturers, will do an excellent job for nearly everyone 90% of the time and we pay more for that 10% (in my case probably less than 5%) when the difference is really needed. So when reading a review my judgements are based on:

Is it someone I have grown to trust and this comes down to whether I consider their comments thoughtful, well conceived and well explained. And part of 'well-explained' is how their style of photography matches what I want to do with it. Too often I read a review of a body or a lens for wildlife being reviewed by someone whose main interest is weddings and portraiture so I ask myself whether they have spent the time to set it up correctly and to understand how to use it to best effect (operator limitations). 

Have they discussed good an bad points - anyone can write a positive review, what I find interesting is where the gear fails as this often (not always) suggests they have tried to push it to the gear's limit and comparing different reviews will suggest to me whether it is the limitation of the gear or the operator. I am usually given confidence in reviews that end with 'Great camera, but I won't buy one because....' because to me that shows a real understanding of what the gear can do and also of their own needs and expectations.

Gear comparison always helps because it shows a wider experience and understanding of their benchmarks - when I spend premium price on a Canon lens I want to know why I am buying the Canon lens instead of a Sigma equivalent


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## AlanF (Mar 16, 2017)

Hillsilly said:


> Don't knock scientific journals - They can be used for good. I'm just about to submit a new batch to some OMICS magazines on "Why fat is good for your heart", "Chocolate: the new miracle food", "Exercise with caution: Why all unnecessary exertion MUST be avoided" and "How ice cream brain freeze reduces brain swelling and improves mental acuity". Not only will these articles be picked up by the Buzzfeeds, CNNs etc of the world (and make everyone happy for a few days), but doctors will be forced to advise patients accordingly because they'll appear in peer-reviewed journals with very serious titles.



To the uninitiated, OMICS journals have a certain reputation, and Hillsilly has made a great in-joke.


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## dak723 (Mar 18, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> So, I'm asking other CR members to talk about HOW DO YOU SEPARATE FACT FROM FANTASY (aka BS) when making gear purchasing decisions? Many of us are now living in areas hundreds of miles from the nearest camera shop.
> 
> Thanks!



Buy from a company that will accept returns. Your own opinion is all that really matters. And when it comes to camera gear, I don't think you will find any items that are "lemons." If you are primarily interested in photography, they all do the job far more than adequately. If you are primarily interested in specs, then read the reviews at your own risk!


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## danski0224 (Mar 18, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> Most of the gear I own is in the "big seller" category: lenses and bodies familiar to many CR members, reviewed by popular and generally reputable review sites and individuals.
> 
> However, I recently picked up a Sigma 180mm f/2.8 APO OS. The lens was rarely reviewed; despite popping up quite a bit in Google, most of the "reviews" are rehashes of the original press release. By coincidence, just in the past day or two a new thread was started about this lens, the first discussion of it in years on CR. The OP was asking for those with personal experience for a comparison between the Sigma and the Canon 180mm f/3.5.
> 
> ...



The Sigma 180 has many stellar reviews on Fred Miranda's site. There are as many reviews combined on Amazon for the different available mounts (but one must watch for "fake reviews" on Amazon now).

I'd guess that this lens/focal length is "fairly uncommon" compared to the 135mm and smaller lenses, so fewer sales.

The only thing one can do is due diligence and scour the internet for reviews across many forums... and make an educated guess.

Being able to return the item is a big plus.


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