# Another upgrade question.



## Valvebounce (Nov 28, 2015)

Hi Folks. 
I have a 7D which I struggle to get quality shots from, usually the focus appears off, yes I have AFMA'd the lenses, I see people using the same gear (7D with 70-200 IS LII with 2X III) getting good shots and wonder if it is me, technique etc but the odd sharp shot during a days shooting where I haven't knowingly changed technique has me confused. Just occasionally the shots are much sharper so I wish to upgrade as I feel consistently disappointed with my photography. 

Targets are wildlife, cars, planes and general family and pets. 

I was very much set on a 5DIII, then some of you (you know who you are ;D) started posting shots from the 7DII which look great. 
So this is aimed primarily at people who have upgraded from a 7D and have experience of using the 70-200 IS LII with and without 2X III converter on both a 7DII and 5DIII. 
How does this combination hold up on each camera? 
What is the highest ISO that you use on each camera that gives clean shots?
How is the ISO noise, is one nicer than the other? 
How is the shadow banding? I have found it a couple of times on the 7D and it is horrible! 
Does the shadow banding lift batter on one than the other? 
The AF system looks similar on paper, but is the 7DII much better?
Do cropped 5DIII shots compare well to the "extra reach" of the 7DII?
What does each camera have that is missing (and that you miss when swapping bodies)?
If you think I have missed an important question please add it and an answer. 

Tomorrow (Sunday) I'm going to the LCE camera show in Southampton, I hope to try both bodies with this combination for myself with my own CF card so I can look at and edit them for myself. 

I understand that ISO and noise is subjective, but I'm hoping that although each person may have different limits there will be a similar difference from each person. 
Sorry for the rambling post. 

Thanks in advance for your help. 

Cheers, Graham.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Nov 28, 2015)

I did not use the settings that you quoted. but I remember reading in Canonrumors which 7D Marl ii works surprisingly well with a 2X teleconverter.


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## gregorywood (Nov 28, 2015)

As a 4 year owner of the 7D and the lens combination you speak of, I can say that I can get consistently great actions shots. This was not always the case and I spend a great deal of time reading and learning about all the settings that effect the autofocus. 

The two settings that had that greatest impact were the point selection - I use single point expansion exclusively for anything moving...the second was the setting for the tracking focus priority - I have mine set to -1 so that it doesn't "grab" focus of something that comes between me and the subject. 

There are many other settings, and I don't want to assume that you haven't been through all this yourself, but you should investigate for yourself and experiment. If you haven't, I'd highly recommend it because you may end up being happy with what you have, and if you buy the latest iteration of this camera, the same settings apply. Without understanding them and changing them accordingly, you may end up with similar results. However, the 7DII is quite a step up from the 7D and I myself have thought of upgrading! 

Best of luck!
Greg


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## Valvebounce (Nov 28, 2015)

Hi ajfotofilmagem. 
Thank you for your reply, I do remember that thread and it does seem that adding the 2X III has quite an impact on the image quality with the 7D. 

Cheers, Graham. 



ajfotofilmagem said:


> I did not use the settings that you quoted. but I remember reading in Canonrumors which 7D Marl ii works surprisingly well with a 2X teleconverter.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Nov 28, 2015)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi ajfotofilmagem.
> Thank you for your reply, I do remember that thread and it does seem that adding the 2X III has quite an impact on the image quality with the 7D.
> 
> Cheers, Graham.


Usually we care about our lens copy is "Conforming" and not be decentralized, but what teleconverter? Does your are perfectly centered? It would be nice to take the opportunity, and test your copy of the teleconverter with the cameras in the camera show.


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## Valvebounce (Nov 28, 2015)

Hi Greg. 
Thank you for your reply. You are absolutely correct, I have tried changing the tracking sensitivity -1 and -2, settled on -1. I have focus and tracking priority set and use continuous AF track priority, but have tried main focus point priority. I have tried single point expansion, single point, let the camera use the whole damn lot and everything in between! 
My problem for example is tracking a car down the straight, slow speed continuous drive somewhere in the 70-200mm range, shutter speed priority set to 1/1000 sec ISO set to give me around f5.6 to F8 I might take 6 shots no obstructions no fence, no tannoy poles, not even a blade of grass, I might get 1 shot crisp, and if I did I'd be happy because the norm would be 1 nearly crisp. 
As for panning, well I know that is hard and I'd settle for a much lower ratio, 1 in 100 but even when I manage to keep the focus point in one place, say the middle of a 0 of the number on the door for 3 shots in a row none are in focus. Not even the 0! 
AFMA done with FoCal pro. 
I even took a picture of a Royal Marine bugler the other day and that is soft, really pissed about that!

Cheers, Graham. 




gregorywood said:


> As a 4 year owner of the 7D and the lens combination you speak of, I can say that I can get consistently great actions shots. This was not always the case and I spend a great deal of time reading and learning about all the settings that effect the autofocus.
> 
> The two settings that had that greatest impact were the point selection - I use single point expansion exclusively for anything moving...the second was the setting for the tracking focus priority - I have mine set to -1 so that it doesn't "grab" focus of something that comes between me and the subject.
> 
> ...


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## Valvebounce (Nov 28, 2015)

Hi ajfotofilmagem. 
Thanks for that suggestion, but it is a problem with all lenses, I didn't list them all as I thought the fact that some are third party would make it less likely for people to have them to compare. 

Cheers, Graham. 



ajfotofilmagem said:


> Valvebounce said:
> 
> 
> > Hi ajfotofilmagem.
> ...


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## FTb-n (Nov 28, 2015)

I don't understand the focus issues with your 7D. Mine has been very reliable.

The 7D2 should fair well in daylight and I would expect the focus tracking to have an edge over the 5D3 when it comes to erratic movement. It also has a flicker setting which can be a big benefit when shooting in gyms with older, flicker-prone lighting. In these gyms, I get very different lighting with consecutive burst shots from both my 5D3 and my 1Dx. In one frame, my subject can be in shadow with goofy WB, in another frame the subject can have a nice highlight cast with nicely balance WB.

When compared to the 7D, my cropped images from the 5D3 fair quite well. The 5D3 offered better color depth and sharper images. When shooting soccer, I often switched bodies for the reach benefit of the 7D while using the 70-200 f2.8L II. In post, I ended up choosing the 5D3 images over the 7D, even if I had to crop them. I have since added the 100-400 II to my kit and no longer worry about the extra reach of a crop body for field sports.

When filling the frame with the same subject with both bodies, I would expect the 5D3 to produce a sharper image with more color depth. This link will give you idea of how the FF body is sharper than crop.

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=972&Camera=963&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=972&Sample=0&CameraComp=453&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0

High ISO is where the 5D3 shines. I live around 6400 and during night football games will go up to 12800. There's noise, but it if you over expose slightly, it cleans up well in Lightroom. I rarely add noise reduction for shots up to 3200. Shots up to 6400 get a modest amount of cleanup. I would expect about a two stop benefit over the 7D2.

In my opinion, the 5D3 is an underrated sports body. With the right lens (24-70 f2.8 II, 70-200 f2.8 II, 100-400 II), it will lock on quick and follow most subjects well. I shoot a lot of figure skating and the only area where the 5D3 has trouble is with rotational jumps when the skater is mid-air. The 5D3 can have trouble tracking and capturing that moment when the skater is looking in your direction due to the slower FPS. You need to play with the focus case settings to improve your odds -- or get the 1Dx.

I did take the plunge with the 1Dx because I was pushing the 5D3 to its limits. For what it's worth, not only does the 1Dx stay locked on with challenging movement, but I'm getting another stop of cleaner ISO. I often shoot night football at ISO 40000.


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## Valvebounce (Nov 28, 2015)

Hi FTb-n. 
Thanks for the reply, I don't understand the issues either, it is something that has always been the same that I can remember, I know the camera has never been dropped unless it happened in the mail! 
I put it down to technique initially, but I think my technique has improved through following the advice on here. 
I forget about the digital picture, I have the site saved as a shortcut but never think to use it so thanks for that, the FF image looks so much sharper, is that because it is 1/3 closer than the crop for the same field or is that the real difference. The fact that you chose the cropped FF over the crop camera is something that seems common and what had me heading for FF until the 7DII came along and some people reversed that situation. 
You say that you live around 6400 with the 5DIII, what was the limit with the 7D? 
Yeah I tried the 1Dx at last years show, but that is way out of budget, even second hand, I did like it and it felt good in use, but then I have a grip on my 7D so it is not such a leap up in size. I have looked in to the 1DsIII, and the only thing that worries me is not being able to use moderately high ISO as it only has 1600 expandable to 3200. I sometimes push to 6400 to get a shot, not a pro so it's about the memory not the money. 

Cheers, Graham. 



FTb-n said:


> I don't understand the focus issues with your 7D. Mine has been very reliable.
> 
> The 7D2 should fair well in daylight and I would expect the focus tracking to have an edge over the 5D3 when it comes to erratic movement. It also has a flicker setting which can be a big benefit when shooting in gyms with older, flicker-prone lighting. In these gyms, I get very different lighting with consecutive burst shots from both my 5D3 and my 1Dx. In one frame, my subject can be in shadow with goofy WB, in another frame the subject can have a nice highlight cast with nicely balance WB.
> 
> ...


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## dhr90 (Nov 28, 2015)

I've been having some similar problems, so will be very interested to hear if a 7DII or 5DIII does help you! The other issue I have with the 7D is noise performance when shooting aircraft, blue skies at even ISO 100 are absolutely crippled I feel.

Personally, I think that for now at least, many of my problems are down to technique for not getting the point I want in focus, but I have noticed a vast improvement if I remove the 2xIII and then just crop heavily in post. To the point I almost don't want to use the teleconverter most of the time now.


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## FTb-n (Nov 30, 2015)

Valvebounce said:


> ...the FF image looks so much sharper, is that because it is 1/3 closer than the crop for the same field or is that the real difference....


To my understanding, it has more to do with the "resolving power" of the lens being better suited for pixel density the FF sensor. In theory, the newer "Mark II" Canon lenses are supposed to be better suited for smaller, more densely populated pixels of new sensors like those in the 5DIIIs.

These two threads offer an interesting read on the "true reach" of crop bodies:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=23518.0

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=22399.0



Valvebounce said:


> You say that you live around 6400 with the 5DIII, what was the limit with the 7D?


Yes, for a long time my personal limit on the 7D was 3200. But, later I got more confident with 4000-6400 to keep the shutter speed at or above 1/500. Sharp with noise was better than clean and blurry. Still, I did a lot of noise reduction with Noise Ninja or Lightroom and lost some detail in the process. The target rendering size of my images was largely web or yearbook and not poster size, so the noise was less of an issue. Still, when you get "THAT SHOT", it's nice to be able to blow it up.

The 5D3 gave me the breathing room that I needed to balance shutter speed and ISO without relying heavily on noise reduction in post.


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## Hector1970 (Nov 30, 2015)

I have both the 7D II and the 5D III.
The 7D II is great for day time sports. The frame rate is great in terms of capturing that vital moment.
It has a very clear viewfinder
As an allround camera the 5DIII wins hands down to me.
Its very flexible. Very good ISO performance.

The 7DII I feel is poor at higher iso's say 6400. I don't like the noise.
I find picture very clear in the view finder aren't so good on a computer screen.
If I had to drop 1 I'd drop the 7DII in a heartbeat and keep the 5DIII.
This is because I take lots of different types of photographs other than sport.
For sport in good light the 7DII Shines.
You capture great moments within that 10 FPS.
You do a burst and there is often just one good frame in it but it's perfect.
Both have very good focusing systems.
The 100-400II is very good with the 7DII.

Kind Regards
Fergal


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## Valvebounce (Nov 30, 2015)

Hi Folks. 
Well despite having been given the go ahead on cost up to the 5DIII, I decided on the 7DII for my new body. 
Despite completely bungling the comparative test at the show, one body set to RAW plus JPEG, one to JPEG, one might have been set to AF OFF on the back button as it doesn't show any focus points on the files in DPP on some of the shots, but the shots that were in focus looked good on both, but at higher ISO's the 7d noise looked nicer to me. Plus there are the other things like dual pixel AF in live view and video modes, I'd like to have had that when I was trying to get footage of the Vulcan, I might have more than a blurred sky with a great soundtrack! GPS, I've tried doing it with a phone and there has always some discrepancy despite synchronising clocks! 
Also I feel that things like the illuminated AF points in AI Servo and EC in manual will be beneficial. 
The other thing is I would have had to wait and save up for a 24-105 for the 5DIII, I was prepared to do this if necessary. 
I hope I don't regret this choice! 
The Black Friday weekend (and a bit) purchase is made, but I am not allowed it until Christmas! ;D (probably)

Thanks to all for your help and advice, if it seems like I went against your advice after you took the trouble to give it I assure you it was all read and given great consideration and I was impressed by the value of the information. 
I was unsure pretty much up to trying the live view focus which is lightning quick compared to the non dual pixel system, the only thing that could have changed my mind then would have been a marked difference in the image quality and I couldn't see one given the short test I was able to make. 

Cheers, Graham.


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## FTb-n (Nov 30, 2015)

Congrats on your purchase. Only you can determine which body best meets your needs and budget. The advice that we offer comes from our own bias in needs and interests and I think we all understand that your's will differ. Hopefully we can help you make an informed decision. 

One thing that I should add is that IQ differences between current crop and FF bodies can be easy to see when comparing shots taken side-by-side of the same subject. Take away the side-by-side, and it's much harder to spot the crop image (as long as it's within its "workable" ISO). Show me photos of random subjects (that don't challenge ISO limits) and I'm not sure that I would be able to pick out the crop image from the FF image. 

The body is just a tool. Know its strengths and its limits and you'll capture great images with your 7D2.


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## wsmith96 (Nov 30, 2015)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Folks.
> Well despite having been given the go ahead on cost up to the 5DIII, I decided on the 7DII for my new body.
> Despite completely bungling the comparative test at the show, one body set to RAW plus JPEG, one to JPEG, one might have been set to AF OFF on the back button as it doesn't show any focus points on the files in DPP on some of the shots, but the shots that were in focus looked good on both, but at higher ISO's the 7d noise looked nicer to me. Plus there are the other things like dual pixel AF in live view and video modes, I'd like to have had that when I was trying to get footage of the Vulcan, I might have more than a blurred sky with a great soundtrack! GPS, I've tried doing it with a phone and there has always some discrepancy despite synchronising clocks!
> Also I feel that things like the illuminated AF points in AI Servo and EC in manual will be beneficial.
> ...



Congrats on your new camera!


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## dhr90 (Nov 30, 2015)

I look forward to seeing what you capture with the new camera!


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## Valvebounce (Dec 1, 2015)

Hi dhr. 
I'm looking forwards to seeing what I capture with some trepidation lest it prove I'm just not good at taking pictures! It could just be that the grain on my OOF pictures will look better!  : ;D

Cheers, Graham. 



dhr90 said:


> I look forward to seeing what you capture with the new camera!


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