# Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 14, 2012)

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<p><strong>Lots of small things

</strong>The rumor mill has started to heat up as of late, most of the stuff seems pretty out there. However, stuff is appearing on other sites and in my inbox. I’m not sure how much of it is recycled speculation, but that does happen from time to time.</p>
<p>I’ll rate each bit of information on its own.</p>
<p><strong>3 new DSLR bodies this summer [CR1]

</strong>A mention of 3 new EOS bodies before Photokina in September. Only one of them being a full frame camera. It was suggested that an “entry level” full frame camera wouldn’t be announced and it would be an upper level EOS-1D style camera.</p>
<p><strong>7D Mark II to be full frame? [CR1]

</strong>I’ve seen this in my inbox a few times, and it has shown up on [<a href="http://www.canonwatch.com/rumor-eos-70d-will-be-top-of-aps-c-line-up-eos-7d-mark-ii-will-be-entry-level-full-frame/" target="_blank">cw</a>]. I’ve never really believed this one, I don’t think they can call it “7D Mark II” and change the sensor size from a marketing perspective. There are lots of EF-S lenses in the hands of 7D owners.</p>
<p>I have no doubt there will be a full frame camera under the 5D Mark III, but it can’t have all the prosumer features of the 7D to retain the moniker and stay around $2000. That just doesn’t seem like smart marketing. But hey, I’m not in marketing. :)</p>
<p><strong>Canon EOS 70D [CR1]

</strong><a href="http://www.canonwatch.com/rumor-eos-70d-will-be-top-of-aps-c-line-up-eos-7d-mark-ii-will-be-entry-level-full-frame/" target="_blank">More mentions</a> of the 70D moving up the ranks in the APS-C realm and becoming the flagship APS-C camera. We’ve heard similar things and think it’s entirely plausible.</p>
<p><strong>Adobe Photoshop CS6 Review

</strong>We have posted Ben Long’s review of the Adobe’s latest version of Photoshop, <strong><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/reviews/adobe-photoshop-cs6-review/" target="_blank">Read it here</a></strong>.</p>
<p><strong>Nikon D600

</strong>The speculated “entry level” full frame Nikon D600 looks to be quite real. <a href="http://nikonrumors.com/2012/06/14/first-leaked-nikon-d600-images.aspx/" target="_blank">Check the photo evidence here</a>.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## rsdofny (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

Is this a major marketing screw-up for having only 5d3, 650D (June 19) available before Olympics?


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## hammar (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

I think it makes sense to move the 70D up to the level of 7D since the xxD series has been bumped up, with the xxxD series taking its place. I guess a 7D Mark II could become an entry level FF but as you said, it doesn't make much sense in a marketing perspective. With a D600 out, Canon will most definitely need a entry FF which is better than 5D2 (with a decent AF). Maybe "EOS 7D F".


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## Gothmoth (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



> I have no doubt there will be a full frame camera under the 5D Mark III, but it can’t have all the prosumer features of the 7D to retain the moniker and stay around $2000. That just doesn’t seem like smart marketing. But hey, I’m not in marketing.



well that depends to some point on what nikon has to offer.


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## pedro (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



hammar said:


> I think it makes sense to move the 70D up to the level of 7D since the xxD series has been bumped up, with the xxxD series taking its place. I guess a 7D Mark II could become an entry level FF but as you said, it doesn't make much sense in a marketing perspective. With a D600 out, Canon will most definitely need a entry FF which is better than 5D2 (with a decent AF). Maybe "EOS 7D F".



*I would not call it 7D F. This might give way to the 6D as discussed earlier this year*


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## bp (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

IMHO, the only way a FF sensor on 7D2 would make sense, would be If they also gave it a crop sensor mode. Something to allow current APS-C shooters with lots of EF-S lenses continue to use their glass. This could also lead some of them to buy new EF lenses, to take advantage of the non-cropped full frame and get more out of their new camera, and sell more glass in the process. Could be a smart move. But then of course, the lack of a crop mode in other models would cause grumbling.


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## Astro (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



bp said:


> IMHO, the only way a FF sensor on 7D2 would make sense, would be If they also gave it a crop sensor mode. Something to allow current APS-C shooters with lots of EF-S lenses continue to use their glass.



that is not possible with the EF mount and EF-S lenses.... or is it?

the cameras made for EF-S allowing lens elements to be closer to the sensor.
and if you put them on FF you would have troubles with the image circle of EF-S lenses.. not?
because they need to be farther away because of the larger mirror.


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## ruuneos (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

If 7D2 is going to be full frame so yeah going to upgrade with those rumored specs!


Astro said:


> bp said:
> 
> 
> > IMHO, the only way a FF sensor on 7D2 would make sense, would be If they also gave it a crop sensor mode. Something to allow current APS-C shooters with lots of EF-S lenses continue to use their glass.
> ...


Well 7D to 1100D have already EF and EF-S mounts so why not?


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## Astro (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



ruuneos said:


> If 7D2 is going to be full frame so yeah going to upgrade with those rumored specs!
> 
> 
> Astro said:
> ...



they are not FF.
the APS-C sensor has to cover a smaller image circle and needs a smaller mirror. 

you can adopt nikon lenses on canon cameras but not the other way around (flange distance).
this is a different issue but shows you can not always expect a bi-directional compatibility.



> The "S" in EFS stands for "Short back focus", which means the distance between the rearmost optical surface of the lens and the film (or in this case the digital sensor) is shorter than that of a normal Canon EF series lens. A shorter back focus does have some advantages when designing wide-angle lenses, but there's a limit to how short it can be in an SLR lens since it can't be so short that the SLR mirror hits it when it flips up. The lower limit on the size of the mirror depends on the size of the film (or sensor). Medium format SLRs need a big mirror, 35mm SLRs need a smaller mirror and SLRs with a digital sensor smaller than a full frame 35mm frame can use an even smaller mirror.
> 
> Since the sensor in the Digital Rebel is only 22.7mm x 15.1mm, smaller than the 24mm x 36mm full frame 35mm frame size, the SLR mirror can be (and is) smaller, so it can use a lens with a shorter back focus than full frame cameras, hence the EF-S lens.
> 
> ...


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## pedro (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

*Entry Level FF by Q1 2013?*


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## Daniel Flather (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

Maybe with the mystical D600 and rumoured new entry ff from Canon, we'll see the beginning of the end of APS-C in everything but the rebel line. Really, if you have a ff camera and need more reach you probably can afford one of the TCs.


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## pedro (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Daniel Flather said:


> Maybe with the mystical D600 and rumoured new entry ff from Canon, we'll see the beginning of the end of APS-C in everything but the rebel line. Really, if you have a ff camera and need more reach you probably can afford one of the TCs.



I would like it to be that way again. The first DSLR I bought back in the film days was "FF" ;-) Call it 6D, 2k price tag, ISO 100-25.600, extensions ISO 50, ISO 51200, improved 18 MP sensor (feasable?), 4-5fps, 5D3 AF (don't have it yet, but I do not read lots of complaints). If you want more, pay more 8)


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Daniel Flather said:


> Really, if you have a ff camera and need more reach you probably can afford one of the TCs.



Sure...if your variable-aperture or f/5.6 lens will AF with one...


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## KyleSTL (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Astro said:


> ruuneos said:
> 
> 
> > If 7D2 is going to be full frame so yeah going to upgrade with those rumored specs!
> ...



Close, but EF-S lenses will not work on FF cameras for another reason. In the Canon system the EF-S stands for short back focus, meaning that the rear element is able to protrude further into the camera body than a 35mm lens. This is only allowed by decreasing the size of the reflex mirror.

In the Nikon system, they kept the mount and specifications for intrusion the same for their 'DX' lenses. Therefore, you can mount any DX lens onto an FX camera (full-frame). The only difference is DX lenses will not project an image on all parts of the FX sensor due to the smaller image circle. The D70 is an example of a Nikon camera with a mirror the same size as a 35mm film camera, despite having a smaller sensor size.

If you tried to mount an EF-S lens on a full-frame or 35mm camera, the reflex mirror would either prevent the lens from mounting, or would break the mirror when the shutter is pressed


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## Astro (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



KyleSTL said:


> Close, but EF-S lenses will not work on FF cameras for another reason. In the Canon system the EF-S stands for short back focus, meaning that the rear element is able to protrude further into the camera body that a 35mm lens. This is only allowed by decreasing the size of the reflex mirror.



well that is not close.. it is exactly what i have quoted from bobatkins an written in my first reply.

no need to repeat it


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



KyleSTL said:


> In the Canon system the EF-S stands for short back focus...



Actually, the -S in EF-S stands for small image circle. Yes, I know Wikipedia says it stands for short back focus, and Bob Atkins and lots of other sources do, too. But they're wrong.


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## JEAraman (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Astro said:


> KyleSTL said:
> 
> 
> > Close, but EF-S lenses will not work on FF cameras for another reason. In the Canon system the EF-S stands for short back focus, meaning that the rear element is able to protrude further into the camera body that a 35mm lens. This is only allowed by decreasing the size of the reflex mirror.
> ...



That's exactly what I was thinking


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## KyleSTL (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



JEAraman said:


> Astro said:
> 
> 
> > KyleSTL said:
> ...



Sorry for the repetition, I did not read the quoted text. What astro said about lens compatiblity between Nikon and Canon has nothing to do with DX/FX or EF/EF-S compatibility, only with FBD, which is a different story entirely.



neuroanatomist said:


> KyleSTL said:
> 
> 
> > In the Canon system the EF-S stands for short back focus...
> ...



Citation? I know incorrect information gets disseminated pretty rapidly and thoroughly on the internet, but do you have any citation for the correct abreviation?


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



KyleSTL said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > KyleSTL said:
> ...



Because I said so... 

If you look at the Canon Technical Report for the EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM, you'll see the notation, "_*The "S" in "EF-S" comes from "Small image circle."_"

Also, if you look at p. 128 of EF Lens Work III (it's in section 7, The Basics of Interchangeable Lenses...), there's a notation that, "_* Some of the EF-S lenses does not employ a short back focus optical system._" (yes, that's grammatically incorrect, but correctly quoted)


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## WildBill (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

I edited the wiki page complete with reference. We'll see if it stays.


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## unfocused (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



neuroanatomist said:


> Daniel Flather said:
> 
> 
> > Really, if you have a ff camera and need more reach you probably can afford one of the TCs.
> ...



Well, if you have a full frame camera and need more reach, you should just buy a 7D. That way your variable-aperture or f/5/6 lens will AF. (Credit Neuro with pointing this out many times on previous threads. The best available extender is an APS-C body.)


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## KyleSTL (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



neuroanatomist said:


> KyleSTL said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


Thanks for the information. I am continually impressed with your knowledge of the Canon EOS system, and photography and optical systems in general.


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## c-law (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

I cannot see the 7D going FF. Forget what was said about naming problems that come from continuity of sensor size or annoying legions of 7D and EF-S owners looking for an upgrade path (which are both real concerns) but think about what a FF 7DII that retains the ethos of the 7D with good AF/fast FPS. You end up with the 5DIII but trading a worse AF (but still very good) for better FPS. How could they release this without killing the 5D line dead? It is just too similar.

If it were me, this is how I'd pitch the Canon line-up (coming from pure speculation based on nothing more then what I think makes sense).

1Dx - Top of the line Pro camera @ $6800
5DIII - High-end small form factor FF @ $3500
7DII - High-end small form factor APS-C @ $2200 (61pt AF/8-10FPS)
9D - Entry level FF @ $1600 (Build like a rebel or xxD, not highly sealed, low FPS, xxD or 7D AF)
70D - Enthusiast APS-C @ $1200 (7D AF/6FPS)
650D - Everyman's DSLR APS-C @ $850
1100D - Low-level budget APS-C @ $500


The only thing I am unsure of is where I'd place the high MP camera. Do you go 3D level @ $5000 and go for really impressive and hope that everyone who gets upset about price already got offended by the 5DIII price and jumped ship to the D800? Or do you place it competitive to the D800 at around $3000 and risk over crowding the 5DIII/7DII (and if this is the case, what will Canon leave out to make it fit the price slot)? Finally, if it does compete with the D800 price wise then what will move into the mysterious $5000 price range unless Canon goes for 2 high MP cameras?


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## RLPhoto (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

More evidence that the 7DII will be aps-H.


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## Astro (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



KyleSTL said:


> well that is not close.. it is exactly what i have quoted from bobatkins an written in my first reply.
> 
> 
> Sorry for the repetition, I did not read the quoted text. What astro said about lens compatiblity between Nikon and Canon has nothing to do with DX/FX or EF/EF-S compatibility, only with FBD, which is a different story entirely.



that is why i wrote it is different story. 
the nikon/canon example was only to show that there must be no "bi-directional" compatibility in such cases.



c-law said:


> 9D - Entry level FF @ $1600 (Build like a rebel or xxD, not highly sealed, low FPS, xxD or 7D AF)



if the D600 is in the same league that would be fine.
but i think canon could not afford that the D600 is much better feature wise.

im only guessing here but a 1600-1800$ fullframe will create a lot of interest, in my opinion.


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## c-law (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Astro said:


> c-law said:
> 
> 
> > 9D - Entry level FF @ $1600 (Build like a rebel or xxD, not highly sealed, low FPS, xxD or 7D AF)
> ...


I believe Canon would risk that their name would carry a slightly inferior spec's camera as long as it isn't too far out. They pitted the 19pt AF of the 7D against the 51pt Af of the D300/s, although they did have the FPS advantage.


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## aznable (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



c-law said:


> Astro said:
> 
> 
> > c-law said:
> ...



i think for moving subjects the af of 7d performs better, not talking about the advantage in shutter lag the 7d has, and the 50% more pixels on sensor.


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## traveller (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

The debate over whether we'll see a direct 7D (and D300s) replacement is getting even more interesting. If the pictures of the D600 on NR are real, what does this imply for a D300s replacement? The D600 looks very similar to the D7000, both in size and control interface (e.g. the mode dial), which would confirm it's budget status compared to the Nikon semi-pro interface of the D800. Could Nikon therefore market a 'D400' in the same position as the D300s (i.e. a high end "DX" camera in a D800 style body) alongside this D600 without sending out mixed messages, and if they did, what price point would it occupy? Perhaps the lack of a D400 with the D7000 generation indicates that the high-end 'DX' format camera is dead? Having made this suggestion, Nikon have done this before with the D100 and D70.


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## c-law (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

Theres an interesting thought, could Canon possibly kill two birds with... well two well aimed stones by making the $5000 price point and the new entry level FF both high MP beasts?

You could hit the two levels of people who really care about high MP, people who don't know much about cameras other than more MP are better and those few who genuinely need lots more MP.

You'd probably still upset some people but you always will.


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## Haydn1971 (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

...and Neuro gets quoted on "The Digital Picture"

Your famous now ;-)


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## unfocused (Jun 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



traveller said:


> The debate over whether we'll see a direct 7D (and D300s) replacement is getting even more interesting. If the pictures of the D600 on NR are real, what does this imply for a D300s replacement? ...Could Nikon therefore market a 'D400' in the same position as the D300s (i.e. a high end "DX" camera in a D800 style body) alongside this D600 without sending out mixed messages, and if they did, what price point would it occupy? Perhaps the lack of a D400 with the D7000 generation indicates that the high-end 'DX' format camera is dead? Having made this suggestion, Nikon have done this before with the D100 and D70.



Could Nikon market both a D600 and a D400 at similar price points? Could Canon market both a 7DII and a Full-Frame Rebel at similar price points? 

Why not?

APS-C and Full Frame are two very different formats with very different strengths and weaknesses. One is not better than the other, they are simply different. It is much easier to market two different products at similar price points than it is to market two nearly identical products at vastly different price points – but that will be the real challenge both Nikon and Canon will face if they release "entry-level" full frame cameras that compete with the 5DIII and the D800.

Almost every other industry gives people similar choices. Look at cars for example. Order the small coupe with all the options or for the same price, get the stripped down full-size sedan. One doesn't eat into the sales of the other because they are bought by two different customers. A much more difficult marketing challenge would be to sell the same full-size sedan at $25,000 and $60,000 with the same engine and nearly identical options.


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## qualityresults (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

Although I would like to see this when the announcement comes 
I don't think the 7dII will be FF 
I think you will see a 4D to follow the 1 D 5D format for full frame and 
the 7dII will be the 7D with the digic V processors and the new 2.0 firmware and the af of the 5D mkIII but still APS-C and 24MP plus sensor


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## Jmanc (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

I'm just hoping the 7DII just an updated version (APS-C) of the current 7D since that's what I'm holding out for.


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## EchoLocation (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

Is it just me, or did Canon get smoked this year. Sure, I love the 5DIII, but at worst it should be the same price as the D800. There is no test or review that shows it as being better than the D800, while the D800 has been hailed as wunderkind by most reviews I have read.
Now, there are rumors of a High MP 1D series body. Sure this is nice for die hard Canon users. But what Nikon user, or undecided non partisan buyer would purchase a 1D series priced camera when the D800 is only 3000.
Now, Nikon is seeming to be getting ready to drop the D600 for lets say 2000 dollars(rumors say 1500.) Even at 2000 dollars, this is 1500 dollars, and If you look at the specs, it looks rather similar than the 5DIII.
Sure, the 5DIII might be better, but if you aren't a blind fanboy of Canon, why would you pay 1500 dollars or 2000 dollars more for something that is just a little bit better.
With this new round of updates, it seems pretty obvious that Canon's sensor technology is getting trounced by Sony/Nikon. 
I would not be surprised at all if the D600 has the same or better DXO scores as the 5DIII.
For me it seems that the best way(possibly only way) for Canon to one up Nikon in this series of releases(where there sensor is obviously not nearly as improved as Nikon's) is to put that sensor in a FF mirrorless body, but I really doubt that would happen.
This is probably the only thing that would keep me from buying the D600 at this point.

BTW, I've been a Canon owner for a few years and have a 5DC, 24-105 and 50mm 1.4. If the 5DIII was 2500 dollars I would have pre ordered it, but at 3500 it was way out of my price range and didn't get good enough reviews for me to consider spending that kind of money. I wasn't even considering Nikon at all one year ago but have been very disappointed by the price points of the new lenses and cameras(when i bought in to the system i thought Nikon lenses and bodies were more expensive, now it's the opposite.)
I have never lusted after the 5DII as the AF of my T2i/5DC is the biggest drawback for me and the 5DII doesn't seem significantly better.
At this point, I think Canon has royally screwed up, and their pricing is just out of touch.


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## AprilForever (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

The 7D mk II HAS to be APS-C. If it is not, there will be blood, sweat, and tears!!!

On a serious note, neutering the 7D MK II would indeed be a marketing disaster. Will canon bloat the sensor to FF? I think not. The 5D MK III is nearly a FF 7d. Will Canon turn the 7D into the 70D? Only if they want Nikon to gobble that market.

Is it possible for Canon to do something mind-numbingly stupid? Yes. Anyone remember ET, the atari game?


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## Daniel Flather (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



unfocused said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel Flather said:
> ...



Two great points, but maybe the 1dx can be fooled and will AF @ f8 with a little tape. Has this been tried with the 5d3 by any forum members?


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## wickidwombat (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



AprilForever said:


> The 7D mk II HAS to be APS-C. If it is not, there will be blood, sweat, and tears!!!
> 
> On a serious note, neutering the 7D MK II would indeed be a marketing disaster. Will canon bloat the sensor to FF? I think not. The 5D MK III is nearly a FF 7d. Will Canon turn the 7D into the 70D? Only if they want Nikon to gobble that market.
> 
> Is it possible for Canon to do something mind-numbingly stupid? Yes. Anyone remember ET, the atari game?



I really hope is APS-H mostly because I really want to see your reaction 

that and I love APS-H 

but more seriously I think APS-H with an APS-C crop mode which gives a FPS boost would be really awesome
I also think they should use the 45 point AF and keep the f8 AF regardless
say maybe 6FPS in APS-H and 9 FPS in APS-C

FF in a 7D would just be retarded


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## briansquibb (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Daniel Flather said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



It would be good if there was a 'super sports' body with either a 1.3 or 1.6 crop. 1.3 would be the best compromise because of the IQ benefits


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## unfocused (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



AprilForever said:


> The 7D mk II HAS to be APS-C. If it is not, there will be blood, sweat, and tears!!!
> 
> On a serious note, neutering the 7D MK II would indeed be a marketing disaster. Will canon bloat the sensor to FF? I think not. The 5D MK III is nearly a FF 7d. Will Canon turn the 7D into the 70D? Only if they want Nikon to gobble that market.
> 
> Is it possible for Canon to do something mind-numbingly stupid? Yes. Anyone remember ET, the atari game?



Possible? Yes. Likely? No.

Don't despair. Canon is a shrewd, sophisticated company. They know their 7D customers and they know how to get us to upgrade to the II. We will see an APS-C 7DII and it will be spectacular. (And of course, they'll probably squeeze every cent out of us that they can. But we will go happily like lambs to the slaughter because we loves our 7Ds)


----------



## x-vision (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



AprilForever said:


> Will Canon turn the 7D into the 70D? Only if they want Nikon to gobble that market.



Have you not seen this:
http://nikonrumors.com/2012/06/14/first-leaked-nikon-d600-images.aspx/

Nikon will obviously have a FF camera at the $1800 price point, where the D300 and 7D used to live.
After Photokina, any crop camera at this price point will be *******, as it just stands no chance when it comes to image quality. 

So, if Canon doesn't want Nikon to gobble _that_ market, the 7DII will have to be FF and priced competitively.


----------



## x-vision (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



unfocused said:


> We will see an APS-C 7DII and it will be spectacular.



You realize that no crop camera stands a chance against the upcoming D600 in terms of image quality, right. 

So, let's say Canon indeed makes an APS-C 7DII and prices it at $1699 (like the 7D).
The review sites will inevitably compare it to the similarly priced D600, with its 24mp latest generation Sony FF sensor (which will likely make the 5DIII sensor look bad).
How do you think these comparisons will turn out ???.


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



x-vision said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > We will see an APS-C 7DII and it will be spectacular.
> ...



Journos are infatuated with ff - but the wildlife people will see through that ....


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

Isn't the 5D3 the FF 7D? What on Earth would a FF 7D2 be??


----------



## Ricku (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

I don't care what they'll call the new cameras. I don't really care about the price either.

All I care about is that Canon gets their act together when it comes to sensor tech, especially low ISO read noise (dynamic range).

Nikon/Sony's sensor tech has a ridiculously big advantage right now, and makes the 5D3 sensor look like a toy.


----------



## wickidwombat (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Ricku said:



> I don't care what they'll call the new cameras. I don't really care about the price either.
> 
> All I care about is that Canon gets their act together when it comes to sensor tech, especially low ISO read noise (dynamic range).
> 
> Nikon/Sony's sensor tech has a ridiculously big advantage right now, and makes the 5D3 sensor look like a toy.



in the imortal words of Brian

what hogwash you speak


----------



## nicku (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

I still hope to see a new entry level FF camera; not the 7D with a FF sensor inside. From my point of view now *Nikon is leading the trend in DSLR market*. Canon is following and try to keep the pace. 

*The only think that Canon have and Nikon doesn't is the APS-H sensor*. A 7D2 with an APS-H sensor inside will be a unique camera on the market. Think about the 7D2 with 22MP APS-H sensor inside 8-10 fps and 1D4 AF at say $2500. i believe will be a huuuge success; don't mention that will be a camera format without any rival. That is marketing.


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

you know, I could really actually easily see this as a move canon would do. when they announced the specs for the mk3, they also made it known that the mk2 would be continued until end of 2012. With the cost and spec sheet of the mk3, taking that around $2000 camera off the scene would be a blow. And if nikon is doing a around $2000 FF, what better way to revamp the 7D. Lots have said the only issue with the 7d was that its 1.6 crop (of course, those in wildlife would disagree). For those in studio, wedding, and fine art though a good FF cam in the 2K price range would be awesome. More times than not, the 7D is compared to the 5d2, and vice versa. In fact, many 5d2 users love the IQ, but wisdhed for the functionality of the 7D, and many 7d users have wanted a FF 7D (basically for the AF and fps). Now we have the mk3, which I think is a pretty badass camera, with an AF system that is far better than the mk2. I got my first taste on one last night. The quality of the shots I saw on it at ISO 128,000 with no flash ...frankly WOW, better than what I see out of my 7D at 4000-6400 with flash. So the mk2 crowd should be way pleased (unless you never shoot in low light!) But that leaves all of those folks on a 7D wondering whats next, save for the mk3???? That's where I think a FF 7D makes a lot of sense....

make it awesome enough to bring the 7d crowd in, while not cannibalizing mk3 sales:

Dual digic 5+
one CF card slot
FF sensor 18 MP
ISO range 100-128,000 (1 stop shy of mk3)
21pt AF (same as current 7d)
8fps

That would make for a solid backup to the mk3 for wedding shooters. That would also make for a really nice upgrade for current 7D users. It kind of would be the camera everyone wanted to see in the mk3 (actually, the cam we wanted before the mk3 and the d800 became a reality - now there will be - I want MP and dynamic range whining, but, before the mk3 and d800 was announced, people wanted nothing more than the 7D AF with a 5d sensor...)

if the specs for the new T4i are any indication of whats next, its really hard to find a spot for the 7d. I am suspecting the 70d will be improved enough to take the 7d's place as the king of crop sensor for canon.

The only other direction I could see for the 7D is this:

APS-C sensor
30 MP
fill in the rest with whatever...


----------



## wickidwombat (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



nicku said:


> I still hope to see a new entry level FF camera; not the 7D with a FF sensor inside. From my point of view now *Nikon is leading the trend in DSLR market*. Canon is following and try to keep the pace.
> 
> *The only think that Canon have and Nikon doesn't is the APS-H sensor*. A 7D2 with an APS-H sensor inside will be a unique camera on the market. Think about the 7D2 with 22MP APS-H sensor inside 8-10 fps and 1D4 AF at say $2500. i believe will be a huuuge success; don't mention that will be a camera format without any rival. That is marketing.


damn right! the big keys to success are

1) competitors have no equivalent sensor so no direct competition
2) keeping the older AF (which is proven and reliable) and thus keeping the f8 AF which also gets around that little annoyance that the new sensors dont do f8 might divert a fair bit of flak at least giving people an option
3) 5Dmk3 build quality VF nifty functions like the Dof preview button being configurable etc
4) a price point close to $2000 but realistically based on canons current prices we would see it come in at $2500


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## briansquibb (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Chuck Alaimo said:


> APS-C sensor
> 30 MP
> fill in the rest with whatever...



I think that would be pushing the lens too hard

The current EF-S lens would not make it - and those are the main argument for keeping the APS-C sensors


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## birtembuk (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

There’s a price war looming. Canon is going to be hard pressed to adjust to whatever the competition push them to do. Good for us anyway. 

Now, As far as the format goes, I don’t see just how Canon could manage to keep prices in check if they dilute the sensor size all over the range. Besides, correct me if I’m wrong, APS-H would not take the EF-S line. So, it looks like after the 70D with 22 MP, my take is that we’re going to see a 7DII with the same sensor and a bunch of badass features. Just nice for file size and don’t forget, just nice for video downsizing. 

I would guess that the debate might go like this: for about 2000 bucks, would you prefer a crappy FF or a very capable APS-C ? I know, sometimes consumers just don’t know a damn thing about technology and just want the latest gizmo available. This might be a marketing factor. But. Larger sensors will remain more expensive for a while. This means you’ve got to strip down somewhere to keep price low. So, I don’t see what’s wrong with APS-C myself. Good for price, very good for wild life, very good for macro, very good for those who carry one FF and one APS-C as second camera: one lens equals two lenses.

As for FF’s, Canon have them. No sweat. Again guessing through the crystal ball, I would think that big 5DIII rebates will come after the 1Dx is well out and 5DII is near phase out. Say another 6 months or so. Line’s complete then. With the progress we can expect to see with the APS-C technology, I bet they’ll probably continue with it in 7D’s, xxD, xxxD. Sort of Nikon on reverse gear. Yet, I can’t see anything wrong with that.


----------



## nicku (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



birtembuk said:


> There’s a price war looming. Canon is going to be hard pressed to adjust to whatever the competition push them to do. Good for us anyway.
> 
> Now, As far as the format goes, I don’t see just how Canon could manage to keep prices in check if they dilute the sensor size all over the range. Besides, correct me if I’m wrong, APS-H would not take the EF-S line. So, it looks like after the 70D with 22 MP, my take is that we’re going to see a 7DII with the same sensor and a bunch of badass features. Just nice for file size and don’t forget, just nice for video downsizing.
> 
> ...



Canon must response somehow to Nikon. Don't forget the marketing ( something new, something unique ... WOW)...

The APS-H sensor, mirror mechanism, mount, AF system is allready in use. Canon must only redesign the sensor MP and the camera body ( everything else is existing) From the cost point of view only the body and sensor must be redesigned. 

This is my personal opinion... In the last year or so Nikon have taken the lead in DSLR innovation and technology and the gap is widening; don't mention the price.

After all we will see what will happen at Photokina in September.


----------



## nicku (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dilbert said:


> nicku said:
> 
> 
> > Canon must response somehow to Nikon. Don't forget the marketing ( something new, something unique ... WOW)...
> ...



You forget one essential aspect for wildlife/outdoor photography ... The extra reach.


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## briansquibb (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dilbert said:


> nicku said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Have you not noticed that pro sports togs use 1D4's. There must have been a reason! 

APS-C does not give the same IQ as APS-H
APS-H has more reach than ff

APS-H is the compromise solution that has no major weakness


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> APS-H is the compromise solution that has no major weakness



Except the lack of availability of ultrawide lenses...


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## samirachiko (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



*I would not call it 7D F. This might give way to the 6D as discussed earlier this year*
[/quote]

Me too I think so. The economic FF will be the 6D... (maybe^^)


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## nicku (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dilbert said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Have you not noticed that pro sports togs use 1D4's. There must have been a reason!
> ...



I understand exactly what you mean... and i agree with you. BUT there is a solid reason for all 1D series ( 1D, 1Dmk2, 1Dmk2N, 1Dmk3 1Dmk4) to be APS-H and *NOT* FF.


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## TTMartin (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

I think it is more likely the 7D MkII remains a high frame rate APS sensor sports oriented camera.

I think the 70D will be a full frame upgrade to the 60D, with a polycarb body and an articulating screen.

I think this makes a lot more sense for Canon. With the 1D going full frame many sports pros still want the extra reach of an APS sensor (C or H) and the pro level 7D would fill that.

A full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII.

So I see Canon's line up as:
1DX
3D a high mega pixel full frame camera to match the D800
5D Mk III
7D Mk II high frame rate APS sensor camera 
70D poly carb swivel LCD full frame camera (Full Frame Super Rebel)
T4i
T4 entry level APS-C camera
?? Mirrorless Camera designed to use STM lenses.


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## nicku (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dilbert said:


> nicku said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...




Reasonable enough until 1D3 and 1D4. If the money was the main reason then was more easy to use an already existing sensor in Canon range ( 5D 12.7MP for 1D3 and 5D2 sensor for 1D4) ... not spending money developing new APS-H sensors. Starting with Digic 3 processors canon had the processing power to use those sensors at 10 fps..... so the money reason is not standing up from my point of view.

PS 1D series was not a $2000 camera.


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## pedro (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



TTMartin said:


> I think it is more likely the 7D MkII remains a high frame rate APS sensor sports oriented camera.
> 
> I think the 70D will be a full frame upgrade to the 60D, with a polycarb body and an articulating screen.
> 
> ...



I added my version to your lineup:
1DX
3D a high mega pixel full frame camera to match the D800
5D Mk III
*6D (5DII with new sensor and tech, slightly improved AF)*
7D Mk II high frame rate APS sensor camera 
70D poly carb swivel LCD full frame camera (Full Frame Super Rebel)
T4i
T4 entry level APS-C camera
?? Mirrorless Camera designed to use STM lenses.


----------



## TTMartin (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



pedro said:


> TTMartin said:
> 
> 
> > I think it is more likely the 7D MkII remains a high frame rate APS sensor sports oriented camera.
> ...



From a marketing perspective, a full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, to answer the Nikon D600 without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII or the 7D MkII. It could be priced around the 7D without hurting its sales. Just like today most sport shooters would still buy a 1D MkIV over a 5D MkIII, they would by the 7D Mk II over the 70D entry level full frame. 

Also an entry level full frame camera is still and entry level camera, not a pro camera, not marketed to pros, it doesn't need pro numbering or a pro body. A poly carb Super Rebel body like the 60D allows lower cost of production to keep the price low. It would work as a back up body for pro full frame shooters, or as an entry level full frame camera for those that want to step up.

The 6D you describe would have too much presure from used 5D MkIIs to make sense. Improve its features to much over the 5D MkII and now you compete with the 5D MkIII. Wrap it in a poly carb body and you don't hurt your 5D Mk III sales, even if its features are better than the 5D MkII.

Lots of reasons why a Full Frame Polycarb 70D makes sense. And it really doesn't go that much in the face of the rumor statements.


----------



## AprilForever (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



unfocused said:


> AprilForever said:
> 
> 
> > The 7D mk II HAS to be APS-C. If it is not, there will be blood, sweat, and tears!!!
> ...


 Indeed... A better 7D I would drop more for... I am guessing 2399.00...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dilbert said:


> A particular format of sensor has no IQ. There's nothing inherently better about APS-H than APS-C or FF.



True when you're talking about IQ on the pixel level, untrue when you're talking about IQ on the image level. The 20D and 5DII have the same size pixels. Yes, the 5DII pixels are 'better' but not better enough to account for the IQ differences between the sensors. The FF sensor has better IQ because as a whole, the larger sensor gathers more total light.


----------



## unfocused (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



TTMartin said:


> From a marketing perspective, a full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, to answer the Nikon D600 without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII or the 7D MkII. It could be priced around the 7D without hurting its sales. Just like today most sport shooters would still buy a 1D MkIV over a 5D MkIII, they would by the 7D Mk II over the 70D entry level full frame.
> 
> Also an entry level full frame camera is still an entry level camera, not a pro camera, not marketed to pros, it doesn't need pro numbering or a pro body. A poly carb Super Rebel body like the 60D allows lower cost of production to keep the price low. It would work as a back up body for pro full frame shooters, or as an entry level full frame camera for those that want to step up.



100% agreement with your comments. Not sure about the numbering convention though. I think they'll call the full frame entrance level camera something different. (They are running out of numbers though, so not sure what they do) I'm still predicting the high megapixel camera will be called a 5DHD or something similar. Same body as the 5DIII, just a different sensor (and lower frame rate as a result). I think they still need the 70D in the lineup as an APS-C option for those who don't or won't spend as much as what a 7D costs. 

Lots of people seem to think Canon and Nikon want to move everyone to full frame. But they might prefer to move everyone to two bodies: one full frame and one APS-C. Having a full range of choices in both formats gives them greater flexibility to suck every available dime out of us.


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

It still makes sense to me that the 7d2 could be the FF offering. But, there is also a good argument for the 70D to be FF. 

But if this is the competition:
New/updated Nikon D600 specifications:

24.7MP full frame sensor
Weight: 760g (850g with battery and memory cards), the D800 weights 900g
3.2" LCD with 921K dot with ambient sensor control
HDMI output
Video compression: H264/MPEG-4
Full HD with 30p, 25p, 24p, HD with 60p, 50p, 30p, 25p
Viewfinder coverage: 100% for FX , 97% for Dx
The Nikon D600 will have built-in AF motor
The body most probably will be weather sealed
The D600 may not have built-in GPS as initially reported
ISO range: 100-6400 (with Lo-1 ISO 50 and Hi-2 ISO 25,600)
39 AF points (with an option of 11 AF points), 9 cross-type AF points
AF face detection
Exposure compensation: ±5 EV (same as the D800)
The D600 will probably use the EN-EL15 rechargeable Li-ion battery

If that's what the d600 is going to look like, then I'd say canon may be screwed if the the entry FF doesn't have some pro featured (like weather sealing). Canon has kind of forced themselves into a hole right now where they have to do something bold to stay competitive. Maybe nikon is seriously gambling, cause if those specs are retail price of $1500, they are mst certainly selling it at a loss to keep themselves relevant. Does a polycarb ff70d stand a chance???? can a ff super rebel make it (the ef-s glass issue is way more valid for the XXd series)..

If canon moves the 7D into FF territory, then they can for the firswt time really say that they xd series is their pro FF series. 

From what I have heard, in Japan the number 6 is bad mojo, so its doubtful that they'd name anything with a 6 and no 0 after the 6.

no way the entry FF is called the 3d - 3D would have to fit in between the 1d and the 5d series, and if the rumors of a high MP body are true, the 3D would probably be that.

When it comes down to it though, we're all just have to sit and wait to see what actually happens!!!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dilbert said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Yes, cropping throws away the benefit of the FF sensor gathering more total light. I'm saying that if you move closer with the FF camera (or zoom in with a zoom lens) so you're getting the same framing covering the sensor, you'll get better IQ from the FF sensor. That means there *is* an inherent advantage to FF, unless you go around shooting everything wider than you need and planning to crop away 60% of all your images.


----------



## dlleno (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



unfocused said:


> TTMartin said:
> 
> 
> > From a marketing perspective, a full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, to answer the Nikon D600 without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII or the 7D MkII. It could be priced around the 7D without hurting its sales. Just like today most sport shooters would still buy a 1D MkIV over a 5D MkIII, they would by the 7D Mk II over the 70D entry level full frame.
> ...


 yes I follow the reasoning to introduce an entry level FF, but you're right, imho, that the succession of 60D to 70D would be confusing for those who upgraded to 70D without knowing their APS-C lenses won't work.


> ... I think they still need the 70D in the lineup as an APS-C option for those who don't or won't spend as much as what a 7D costs.
> 
> Lots of people seem to think Canon and Nikon want to move everyone to full frame. But they might prefer to move everyone to two bodies: one full frame and one APS-C. Having a full range of choices in both formats gives them greater flexibility to suck every available dime out of us.



+1. for the pros who have 1DXs -- they will either buy more glass to get the reach once enjoyed by the 1D4, or they will turn to a different body. But with no1D5, the weight of evidence to me suggests a premium crop body of some flavor ,perhaps as a primary sports body for prosumers and secondary body for pros.


----------



## dlleno (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



neuroanatomist said:


> Yes, cropping throws away the benefit of the FF sensor gathering more total light. I'm saying that if you move closer with the FF camera (or zoom in with a zoom lens) so you're getting the same framing covering the sensor, you'll get better IQ from the FF sensor. That means there *is* an inherent advantage to FF, unless you go around shooting everything wider than you need and planning to crop away 60% of all your images.



As a practical matter, I suspect the crop debate, at least in part, boils down to the fact that FF sensors are not likely to emerge with sufficient pixel density to produce IQ equivalent to a high quality crop sensor in distance constrained situations using the same lens, i.e. the same subject distance. At least not at a cost attractive to those who would be the most likely to benefit from such a camera. Perhaps the rumored high-MP FF would achieve this performance level I dont' know, but I note that the motivations for FF bodies are generally different from that of the cop bodies, such that to date we've not seen a FF body that can do this.


----------



## BobSanderson (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...




Agree -I think many of the "experts" at camera shops don't understand this either.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dlleno said:


> As a practical matter, I suspect the crop debate, at least in part, boils down to the fact that FF sensors are not likely to emerge with sufficient pixel density to produce IQ equivalent to a high quality crop sensor in distance constrained situations using the same lens, i.e. the same subject distance.



Surprisingly, when you shoot the same subject at the same distance and crop the FF image to the FoV of the APS-C sensor, the IQ isn't too different, at least based on my comparison of the 5DII with the 7D. The 7D image was slightly sharper, the 5DII image was slightly less noisy (and you can trade noise for sharpness, meaning effectively a wash). But...the cropped 5DII image is only 8 MP, compared to the full 18 MP of the 7D. So...if you need to crop further (or if 8 MP is not enough resolution for your desired output), then the APS-C sensor is the better choice.

Practically speaking, I often need to crop my 7D images of birds shot at 400mm, therefore I'm keeping my 7D after getting the 1D X.


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## BobSanderson (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

"IF" Canon can still change their plans to compete more effectively with Nikon's FFs I think what would make most sense would be:

The forthcoming 70D would become the premiere Canon APS-C with many of the bells, whistles of and structure of the past 7D with faster fps and a newer AF but stay at 18 MP. Priced somewhere between $1,400 to 2,000...a better value (and much better than the new Rebel) with an improved sensor (dynamic range and IQ upped a little)

The 7D II would go FF with many of the same features of the 5D III tempered down (less AF points, not as wonderful weather sealing...) with faster FPS but also at 22 MP. Similar but less robust than the 5D III. Call it the Jr. at about $500 more than the 7D II. This still leave a large pricing gap to reach the 5D III. It would be the prosumer FF.

The 5D II would be retired after great service to Canon and photographers.

The 5D III would begin to be offered, after catching up with demand, with some tactical rebates and lens offers to compete more effectively with D800 on price - updates would tweek some of the complaints and offer new features to make this great camera even better and the price would settle down at around $3,000 eventually.

Canon would start looking to deliver a high MP camera with a latest sensor for landscapers and others worried about MP wars....


----------



## KyleSTL (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

TTMartin and unfocused are singing my tune. If Canon released a 60D body with a FF sensor in it, I would be all over it. Furthermore, it would probably push down the selling price of the 5DI, due to lower market demand. A $500 5DI sounds awesome. It would also probably affect the 5DII market since it would almost definitely have 9 cross-type AF sensors (from the 40D, 50D, 60D, and T4i) and a newer sensor and Digic 5, etc of the latest generation. I hope the D600 comes out soon, since we're likely to see a reply from Canon shortly thereafter.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

Same light per unit area, true (thus, same exposure). More area = more total light. If you frame the subject identically (which, IMO, is the most relevant comparison since composition determines the picture), the subject is occupying a larger fractional area of the image circle, meaning more total light from the subject will fall on a FF sensor.



dilbert said:


> Right, so if the 1DX was 46MP and had the same pixel density as the 7D then you could dispense with the crop camera



Heck, if it was 36 MP and could still deliver that high frame rate, I'd dispense with the 7D...


----------



## dlleno (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dilbert said:


> Right, so if the 1DX was 46MP and had the same pixel density as the 7D then you could dispense with the crop camera



There is little question that one could produce a FF sensor with the same pixel density as a crop sensor and therefore preclude the need to crop externally, but I'm not convinced that today's state-of-the-art is capable of producing such a camera in a way that makes it attractive to those who want to use it for its FF capabilties, i.e. without throwing away the advantages relating to low pixel pitch. 

There is, certainly, some FF pixel count which will produce the optimimum "end to end resolution IQ" competition for an 18MP crop sensor, of the same technology cycle, for the distance-constrained situations where one must crop the FF image to obtain the same FOV. I suspect that pixel count is less than 46, and that such a camera would produce images inferior to the otherwise equivalent lower density FF in those situations that benefit from that lower density. 

THere is no question that the FF is superior when the subject can be framed optimially. The only area in which the crop debate rightfully exists, imho, is in those situations where is not NOT possible to frame the subject optimally-- for example, wildlife situations where the subject distance cannot be reduced, or one does not have a longer lens


----------



## TTMartin (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dilbert said:


> I would be surprised if there weren't already FF sensors in existence with the same pixel density as crop sensors today. The problem is manufacturing. With a larger sensor there is also a similar increase in the chance of a flaw in the fabrication process to render the sensor useless. With fewer sensors per slice of silicon than with crop sensors, the requirements for a good yield are much more stringent with full frame sensors. The chance of a flaw during production goes up as the size of the pixels go down and the megapixel count goes up.
> 
> Nikon/Sony delivering a 36MP sensor camera for $500 less than the 5D3 also says a lot about the manufacturing processes being used. It may be that Canon have got more catching up to do than we realise.



Well, Canon has built a 120mp APS-H sensor.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2010/8/24/canon120mpsensor

And a huge CMOS Sensor.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2010/08/31/canonlargestsensor

Everybody talks like Sony/Nikon have some sort of amazing technological advantage over Canon. Except for DXOMark scores there is nothing that shows this. Dispite what DXOMark says tests at DPReview show that the 5D Mk III has more dynamic range than the D800 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/19

So either Nikon has some really crappy processors that mess up the 2.7 stop advantage that DXOMark says the D800 has, or we should stop quoting, worrying about, or looking at what DXOMark says.

If we're going to base or view of Canon's sensors on DXOMark scores, than Canon might as well not do anything. Because no matter how good a sensor Canon produces, DXOMark will still rate it the same.


----------



## x-vision (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> APS-C does not give the same IQ as APS-H
> APS-H has more reach than ff



... but by that logic, APS-H does not give the same IQ as FF, no?



> APS-H is the compromise solution that has no major weakness



Nope. 

Even the kids know that bigger is better 8). 
So, from a marketing perspective, APS-H has one really major flaw: it's smaller than FF. 
And if your camera has a smaller thingy than the competition, you can't charge same/more than the competition. 
It's that simple. 

Nikon switched from DX to FX in their pro Dx line because Canon was winning with a bigger thingy in their cameras.
And Canon in turn switched from APS-H to FF in the 1-series because now Nikon had a bigger thingy. 

So, despite all the cheerleading, APS-H is out forever. Get over it .


----------



## poias (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



TTMartin said:


> Dispite what DXOMark says tests at DPReview show that the 5D Mk III has more dynamic range than the D800 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/19



You are joking, right? Turn the ADL to Extra High and see D800 range go from the end to end. Let's face it, 5D3's DR is even worse than its 4 year old predecessor's.


----------



## TTMartin (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



x-vision said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > APS-C does not give the same IQ as APS-H
> ...



Well, remember the original APS-H spec (Kodak Film) was for a 16X9 aspect ratio. With the same height as APS-C. So, Canon could have a 16X9 APS-H sensor with a mirror that was the same height as an APS-C camera, only wider. So, it would clear EF-S lenses. If they did that, Canon could have an APS-H sensor camera that was compatible with EF-S lenses.


----------



## Albi86 (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



TTMartin said:


> Everybody talks like Sony/Nikon have some sort of amazing technological advantage over Canon. Except for DXOMark scores there is nothing that shows this. Dispite what DXOMark says tests at DPReview show that the 5D Mk III has more dynamic range than the D800 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/19



Well, it's obvious that Sony is a much bigger company with a much bigger wallet, and thus can afford to invest a lot more in R&D than Canikon. Also, Sony is into many more things than just photography.

A sensor is a piece of tech, by itself has little to do with photography. I think Nikon was very smart to buy them from someone who knows better in this respect, while keeping processor coding in-house.


----------



## TTMartin (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dilbert said:


> TTMartin said:
> 
> 
> > Everybody talks like Sony/Nikon have some sort of amazing technological advantage over Canon. Except for DXOMark scores there is nothing that shows this. Dispite what DXOMark says tests at DPReview show that the 5D Mk III has more dynamic range than the D800 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/19
> ...



The whole point about DXOMark is that they are supposed to be measuring the sensor without all the electronic nannies.

So, yes ADL and HTP can stretch the data to expand the dynamic range, but, DXOMarks claim that the D800s sensor alone has more dynamic range just doesn't hold water.

Or just look at DXOMarks own data the Canon 5D Mk III matches or outscores the Nikon D800 on the screen scores for ISO Sensitivity, SNR 18%, Tonal Range, and Color Sensitivity, yet for some reason the Nikon D800 has a massive Dynamic Range advantage? My understanding that all of those other scores are necessary components that would give the camera its dynamic range. It just doesn't add up!

The Canon 50D was the first casualty of DXOMark. It had much better sensor performance than the D90, yet, people kept pointing to DXOMark and saying how lacking the camera was. Well, sorry the vast majority of people who actually have owned a 50D know it was one heck of a camera, much better than it was ever given credit for.

So, stop getting a complex over Canon's sensors because of DXOMark, and focus on how they actually perform.


----------



## simonxu11 (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



TTMartin said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > I would be surprised if there weren't already FF sensors in existence with the same pixel density as crop sensors today. The problem is manufacturing. With a larger sensor there is also a similar increase in the chance of a flaw in the fabrication process to render the sensor useless. With fewer sensors per slice of silicon than with crop sensors, the requirements for a good yield are much more stringent with full frame sensors. The chance of a flaw during production goes up as the size of the pixels go down and the megapixel count goes up.
> ...


----------



## TTMartin (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dilbert said:


> ...
> 
> Now it may be that you still don't grasp that. Ok. Go and read some of the reviews of the D800 and look at what people are able to do with shadows - they can get meaningful detail out of the shadows without introducing any amount of significant noise. You simply cannot do that with any currently available Canon DSLR.
> 
> DxO are right and their measurements have been backed up by numerous folks with D800s when working with raw files in Lightroom, ACR, etc. dpreview's results match up with DxO's, you're just misunderstanding all of the data that dpreview are giving you.




Actually what DPReview shows it that the 5D MkIII has better highlight capability than the D800. So while with the D800 you might be able to dig more data out of the shadows it is at the expense of dynamic range on the high end. Dynamic range isn't just on the shadow end, its at the highlight end too. So, while the D800 retains more shadow detail, the 5D MkIII retains more highlight detail, the total EV range of the two cameras is very similar.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



neuroanatomist said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > As a practical matter, I suspect the crop debate, at least in part, boils down to the fact that FF sensors are not likely to emerge with sufficient pixel density to produce IQ equivalent to a high quality crop sensor in distance constrained situations using the same lens, i.e. the same subject distance.
> ...



Yeah, each left to their max res, the 7D gives more detail with more noise. Normalize them for same detail and then the 7D has a bit less artifacts and a trace less noise.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Chuck Alaimo said:


> The only other direction I could see for the 7D is this:
> 
> APS-C sensor
> 30 MP
> fill in the rest with whatever...



Not so sure, why not 5D3 AF, 22MP, APS-C, 6fps (8-10fps if they can fit two digic 5+, part of me thinks they could get at least 7fps out of one digic 5+ and they chose not to for the 5D3 maybe due to using a slower mirror box, but who knows).
Basically the exact same thing as the 5D3 only it is APS-C and maybe 1-3 more fps.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > nicku said:
> ...



APS-H has more reach than FF, IF they both have the same number of MP or the FF doesn't have more than a certain number more than the APS-H camera does.


----------



## unfocused (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Chuck Alaimo said:
> 
> 
> > The only other direction I could see for the 7D is this:
> ...



I don't see 30MP. Perhaps someone is just being pessimistic. Given Canon's emphasis so far this year on ISO over resolution, I wouldn't be surprised to see the 7D sensor stay between 18-22 MP. I wouldn't be surprised to see an extra 1-3 fps and I also expect in most other respects it will be an APS-C version of the 5DIII.


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dilbert said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Have you not noticed that pro sports togs use 1D4's. There must have been a reason!
> ...



I guess you cant see how you are contradicting yourself


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dilbert said:


> What gives a lens its "reach" is the pixel density, not the sensor format. A 300mm lens on a 20D will give you almost the same "reach" as on a 5D Mark II/III/1Ds3.



Yep - perhaps you need to tell the sports pros that they have been using the wrong sensors for the last 10 years, never mind the wrong manufacturers cameras

You seem to have missed out the bit about APS-C using thr sweet spot of the lens and why the ff D800/D600 is such a good camera.

I actively use all 3 sensor types - I dont think I need your opinion about which is best


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

Honestly, the odds of BOTH the 7DII and a 70D being released are hard to swallow. I would see one or the other, but given the "failures" of the 60D to continue the legacy of the XXD series, I forsee the XXD line being dropped for a new flagship APS-C 7D mark II. 

They won't upgrade the 7DII to full frame or APS-H (unless it supports EF-s lenses) and it doesn't make much sence to release TWO high performace APS-C cameras (which is where the 70D and 7DII would have to be placed) after the T4i.

The merging of the 70D and 7DII is logical. My guess with the sucess of the 7D, they will call the "new" camera the 7DII and NOT the 70D.

Just my 2 cents.

D


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## Richard8971 (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



unfocused said:


> I also expect in most other respects it will be an APS-C version of the 5DIII.



I would have to agree.

The 7DII would most likely be 

Dual Digic 5

22+ MP APS-C sensor (or perhaps even higher MP) This could be the high MP APS-C Canon Camera. 

8-10 fps. 

The XXD line will be dropped (in MO). It has to be dropped based on the features found on the new T4i. Canon won't drop the flagship line 7D in favor of a "new" flagship 70D. The 60D "sucked" in terms of performace (based on previous XXD cameras) and the T4i is almost as good (almost) at $150.00 cheaper. 

They HAD to "strip" some of the XXD features to encourage sales of the 7D. The 50D was too close to the 7D in terms of basic features so the downgrade of the XXD line was unavoidable. 

I had always assumed that the XD line (7D) was going to be a replacement of the XXD line anyway. It IS the flagship APS-C camera and will continue the trend. No WAY the 70D will replace that. 

Sorry guys, just my opinion and will stay such.

D


----------



## ThomasN (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

*Canon must get their house in order*

Entry level FF will be called 6D not 7DII because Canon will kill the 7D APS-C by making it FF and will not have the possibility to get back to 7D APS-C on a later time if that should fit into the lineup.
An entry level 6D makes sense.
And put the 7D to sleep and put the features into 70D, and let th 70D again be the top of the APS-C line.

*This gives us this perfect lineup*

1D Top of the line pro camera
3D (name saved for 3D video DSLR for movie use)
4D 46MP (or so) studio and pro 4K video camera
5D wedding and architect camera
6D Entry level FF
70D Top of the APS-C line (prosumer)
xxxD Top amateur APS-C line
xxxxD entry level DSLR 

8)


----------



## samirachiko (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

In my opinion: 70D will replace 7D and it will be the top of aps-c sensor. The next 7D will be called 6D: the cheap full frame!!! 

Totally agree with ThomasN! ;D


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## briansquibb (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dilbert said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



So we are in agreement - Canon made the best camera they could and the pro used it. I would guess then that the sensor that Canon chose was the one they knew would deliver what was needed. So by inference the APS-H sensor was the best sensor to sports/action.

IMO therefore would make sense therefore that the APS-H would make perfect sense for a super sports camera to come in above the 7D - tried tested and proven over the last 10 years and with the R&D done to increase the mps well above 36mps.


----------



## daniemare (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



TTMartin said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > TTMartin said:
> ...



I have been saying this from even before the D600 rumours. A 70D FF will really be entry level, so preventing 5D pressure and will be the most probable $1500 - $1700 price point delivery.

Marketing will be easy:
xD = Pro (regardless of sensor size as many birders like the "built-in" TC of a Pro 7D)
xxD,xxxD,xxxxD & mirrorless = Consumer (also regardless of sensor size)


----------



## dlleno (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> Honestly, the odds of BOTH the 7DII and a 70D being released are hard to swallow. I would see one or the other, but given the "failures" of the 60D to continue the legacy of the XXD series, I forsee the XXD line being dropped for a new flagship APS-C 7D mark II.
> 
> They won't upgrade the 7DII to full frame or APS-H (unless it supports EF-s lenses) and it doesn't make much sence to release TWO high performace APS-C cameras (which is where the 70D and 7DII would have to be placed) after the T4i.
> 
> ...



Well, since this is a rumor/opinion site, every opinion is valid if it has some reasonable number of neurons behind it. The above seems the most logical to me, depending of course on how one second-guesses the 7D intro. I'm not sure there is room to continue with four APS-C bodies xxxxD, xxxd, xxd, and 7D, so one of those has to go. I see the 7D intro as an effort to assert, or even experiment with, a near-pro C body and squeeze out one of the others eventually. The outcome of the 7D intro, it seems to me, was wildly succesful, which suggest that something with a 7 on the front will continue. 

Marketing and customer messaging is both an art and a science, and moving the 7D itself to a FF sensor would drastically change the positioning of this body, as well as the market perceptions in ways far more profound than the merge of the APS-H 1D4 with the FF 1DS -- which itself was accomplished by droping the 1D<x> moniker altogether. So, just my interpretation of Canon's actions I would say 7D either disappears entirely or stays as the flagship APS-C body. and since the latter appears to have been Canon's intentions all along ,that seem the most likely outcome. Even a change to APS-H, as cool as that would be, would be even more confusing to today's 7D community who have already invested in EF-S lenses that would not work with such a sensor change. 7D owners would wanted to upgrade would be forced into the 70D or sell their S lenses. From a marketing perspective, the 70D name doesn't quite cut it, imho, as the flaship C body, when you already have 7D doing that already. 

What's still conspicuously absent is an indication from Canon as to how they will fulfill their stated commitment to pro wildlife and sports without a 1.3x in the picture - unless it is with the combination of 1DX and 7D. and to do that, a new APS-C sensor in the 7D could have to produce better images than cropped 1DX images of the same FOV -- and do so more convincingly than todays 7D when compared with the 5D3. Such a (7D2) camera would have to reign as the premium flagship C body that the pros would be happy to carry as a 2nd body. 

of course, we could see an APS-H surprise as well, which would be a fascinating show to watch on this board if it ever happend!


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dlleno said:


> of course, we could see an APS-H surprise as well, which would be a fascinating show to watch on this board if it ever happend!



Indeed it would


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

Some here are concluding that APS-H is dead. When did _Canon_ make such an announcement? Didn't they just produce a prototype APS-H 120MP sensor about a year or so ago? 

http://www.canonrumors.com/2010/08/canons-120mp-aps-h-sensor/

Why would they do so if the APS-H sensor was eventually going to be eliminated? Hmmmm....

There is nothing wrong with the APS-H sensor. It allows some crop (additional reach) and can allow for "cleaner" images over the APS-C sensor and it's cheaper to produce than a FF sensor. 

However, that being said, I cannot imagine the 7DII being FF or APS-H, _unless_ it came compatable with EF-s lenses but hardware limitations won't allow for that, _yet._ Too many 7D owners have EF-s lenses that would NOT be compatable with a 7DII if it was produced with a FF or APS-H sensor. That would be a poor marketing decision for Canon, in MO.

I still believe the XXD line will be dropped and the 7DII will take it's place.

D


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dlleno said:


> The above seems the most logical to me...
> 
> ...of course, we could see an APS-H surprise as well, which would be a fascinating show to watch on this board if it ever happend!



Thanks. 

And I agree, no one here knows exactly what Canon will do.

D


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dilbert said:


> If 10 years ago Canon had the machinery it does today then APS-H would never have existed.



And how do you come to this conclusion? Canon simply made DSLR sensors to co-exist with some of the existing SLR film standards, 35mm, APS-H and APS-C. Film users would more easily adapt to sensor sizes tailored to what they were already used too.

Each sensor offers pros and cons over the other. Nothing wrong with any of them, just depends on what you need/want in a camera.

I own both the 5DII and 7D. Am I unhappy with one of them? NO! Each camera offers something the other cannot and I for one am glad I have both to choose from, depending on my shooting needs.  If I had a 1D mark (whatever) with an APS-H sensor, I would use it too!

D


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dilbert said:


> There's a thread elsewhere about some Euro football shooter that is using the 1DX. Does he complain anywhere about no longer having a 1.3x crop? No. All he cares about is the autofocus performance and frame rate. Wonder of wonders.



I can't follow the logic of your threads - one minute you are advocating APS-C because of the reach now you are talking about ff. My difficulty is understanding why you are so anti APS-H - and assume I am a APS-H fanboy when you consider that I only bought it October 2011 as an upgrade to the 7D.

From my ownership of both the 7D and a 1D4 I am suggesting a replacement for the 7D as a APS-H super sports camera not a replacement for the 1DX. I would be interested to know whether 7D owners would like to upgrade to:

- 10fps
- 24mps
- twin CF slots
- 42 point AF
- AF point metering

All these features would be available by migrating down the technology from the 1D4. Not a big deal and from my experience a very valid suggestion.


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > There's a thread elsewhere about some Euro football shooter that is using the 1DX. Does he complain anywhere about no longer having a 1.3x crop? No. All he cares about is the autofocus performance and frame rate. Wonder of wonders.
> ...



I'm very serious here. Brian if that were the case, I'd buy that over the 1D X and be very happy.


----------



## plutonium10 (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> I still believe the XXD line will be dropped and the 7DII will take it's place.



I seriously doubt Canon would just drop the XXD line. I agree that a 7D MK II (if the 7D/60D product lines are in fact merged) could successfully become the spiritual successor to both the 7D and 60D in many regards, but dropping the actual XXD moniker? No. In my mind, it could make sense for the rumored entry-level FF camera to use the XXD badge, which would further help distance it from the more advanced features of the 5D III / 7D II. Then again, if it does end up being more expensive than the 7D II, the 6D name might be a better fit.


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



plutonium10 said:


> Richard8971 said:
> 
> 
> > I still believe the XXD line will be dropped and the 7DII will take it's place.
> ...



OK, I could see keeping the XXD line IF the line went FF (which is very unlikely). BUT, not if the 70D and 7DII were APS-C sensors.

I forsee the XXD line being dropped in favor of a flagship 7DII and I forsee an entry level FF (3D or 6D, maybe) to replace the 5DII.

Besides the 70D and 7DII would more than likely be APS-C sensors. Given the features of the T4i where would you place the specs of the two? Any ideas anyone? My opinion? IF they released the 70D and 7DII the 7DII would have to be placed in the APS-C 32MP+, 8-10 fps range (with 1DX/5DII features). It's possible, but who knows really. The 70D would have to be placed in the 24MP+ 6-8 fps range to be better than the T4i.

D


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



plutonium10 said:


> I seriously doubt Canon would just drop the XXD line.



Why not? They "just" "downgraded" it to a plastic body and lower FPS to not directly compete with the 7D. :-[

D


----------



## plutonium10 (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> plutonium10 said:
> 
> 
> > I seriously doubt Canon would just drop the XXD line.
> ...



That's true, they did just that, but the XXD name is useful in itself from a marketing perspective because it allows a model to be placed somewhat below the greatness of xD bodies and somewhat above the xxxD consumer line. This is what leads me believe that the xxD line will survive, and it's also why I think a "budget" FF could fit the name well. I do admit the idea is somewhat unlikely but who knows?


----------



## RLPhoto (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

Ill Take APS-H over APS-C any day. I really hope the 7D is 10FPS and APS-H.


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



plutonium10 said:


> Richard8971 said:
> 
> 
> > plutonium10 said:
> ...



True, but from a marketing standpoint the 70D and 7DII would continue the APS-C sensor trend. We are talking about some high MP, high performance cameras from both. Canon cannot keep every future camera at 18MP. If true, I cannot wait to see what Canon comes up with.

D


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



RLPhoto said:


> Ill Take APS-H over APS-C any day. I really hope the 7D is 10FPS and APS-H.



Yes I agree but to "upgrade" from a 7D to a "7DII" the upgrade would have to justify the cost. As suggested, too many 7D owners (myself included) own EF-s lenses. The EF-s (as of yet) is not compatible with an EF APS-H body. I don't see Canon making such a decision.

D


----------



## RLPhoto (Jun 17, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Ill Take APS-H over APS-C any day. I really hope the 7D is 10FPS and APS-H.
> ...



Thats what the 70D will be. The next Flagship APS-c camera.


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 17, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dilbert said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



So I take that as meaning you dont have experience of both APS-C and APS-H on which to base your arguments.

My understanding of a troll would seem to fit you like a glove:

"a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response"


----------



## distant.star (Jun 17, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*


.
Wow, that's some definition. I've seen people described as trolls, but never had a precise meaning, and this is amazing. That suggests some people actually have an emotional attachment to photographic equipment? Maybe this gay marriage thing really has gone too far. Someone will marry their camera next?

Oh, and so I'm not a troll...

Again, I don't believe Canon will use the APS-H again in still cameras. I don't think there will be a 70D either.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.





briansquibb said:


> "a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response"


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 17, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



distant.star said:


> That suggests some people actually have an emotional attachment to photographic equipment?



I understand that might be more of name calling, posting a very controversial or illogical argument knowing that it would provoke an angry response


----------



## plutonium10 (Jun 17, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> "a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of *provoking readers into an emotional response*"


Anyone who says good things about Nikon. :


----------



## Rocky (Jun 17, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

There are a few interesting and heated discussion about APS-H. Here is my take on it. APS-H is 56% larger than the APS-C. A 28 MP APS-H will have the same pixel density density as the 18 MP APS-C. So it is an easy way to increase pixel count without losing image quality. If we go the opposite way. Keep 18MP on the APS-H we will have better picture quality, better dynamic range than the 18MP APS-C. The cost of APS-H sensor will be definitely less than the FF sensor. 
So far there are two argument against the APS-H: "Reach" and not enough wide angle lenses. For me both are not as important as it sounds. There is only a 20% difference in "Reach" between APS-H and APS-C. It is not such a big deal. It is the same difference between a 250mm lens and a 300mm lens. In real world. It doe not matter. As for wide angle. There is a 14mm L. It will be equal to 18mm on the APS-H and 22.4mm on the APS-C. There Is a EF-S 10-22mm. That will make it a 16 to 35mm on APS-C. There is about 10% difference in coverage between 18mm and 16mm coverage. It is a big deal when we need it. But how many of us will be using these focal length??? 
For the APS-C user that is having a 17-40mm L. Your effective wide angle will be increased from a 27mm coverage to 22mm coverage. That is a bonus.

Therefore I am totally for a APS-H body with 18MP and no grip to give us good IQ and DR. A poor man's 1D without the weight and size. Or Canon can put it it a GOOD mirrorless and make it a poorman's M8.


----------



## expatinasia (Jun 17, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Rocky said:


> There are a few interesting and heated discussion about APS-H. Here is my take on it. APS-H is 56% larger than the APS-C. A 28 MP APS-H will have the same pixel density density as the 18 MP APS-C. So it is an easy way to increase pixel count without losing image quality. If we go the opposite way. Keep 18MP on the APS-H we will have better picture quality, better dynamic range than the 18MP APS-C. The cost of APS-H sensor will be definitely less than the FF sensor.
> So far there are two argument against the APS-H: "Reach" and not enough wide angle lenses. For me both are not as important as it sounds. There is only a 20% difference in "Reach" between APS-H and APS-C. It is not such a big deal. It is the same difference between a 250mm lens and a 300mm lens. In real world. It doe not matter. As for wide angle. There is a 14mm L. It will be equal to 18mm on the APS-H and 22.4mm on the APS-C. There Is a EF-S 10-22mm. That will make it a 16 to 35mm on APS-C. There is about 10% difference in coverage between 18mm and 16mm coverage. It is a big deal when we need it. But how many of us will be using these focal length???
> For the APS-C user that is having a 17-40mm L. Your effective wide angle will be increased from a 27mm coverage to 22mm coverage. That is a bonus.
> 
> Therefore I am totally for a APS-H body with 18MP and no grip to give us good IQ and DR. A poor man's 1D without the weight and size. Or Canon can put it it a GOOD mirrorless and make it a poorman's M8.



Great post Rocky. Very informative.


----------



## dlleno (Jun 17, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



bdunbar79 said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > From my ownership of both the 7D I am suggesting a replacement for the 7D as a APS-H super sports camera not a replacement for the 1DX. I would be interested to know whether 7D owners would like to upgrade to:
> ...




I would be all over that one too -- even without integrated grip, but otherwise nicely weather sealed. And no, Canon has made no announcment (correct me if wrong, here) that the APS-H has been placed in end of life status. That doesn't mean it isn't at the end of its life, it just means Canon hasn't said so. All they've said is that 1D and 1DS are merged in the 1DX and they remain committed to sports/wildlife. whatever that means. I still think their plans to fulfil this commitment have not yet been telegraphed -- other wise we wouldn't be speculating so vigorously  

Of course, what Canon wants us to do is buy the 1DX AND some other body. 

Without APS-H in the picture, that "other body" has to be a flagship APS-C , probably 7D2. It better be good, as I say 'more convincing' than the 7D's present edge over cropped 5D3 images. But then we would still have four APS-C bodies so one of those has to either go away or go to FF in my opinion. Who knows, maybe we'll see both a 7D2 (APS-C) and 7DX (FF), while 70D drops. 

Honestly Brian I wish Canon would pull off just the surprise you mention, as a differentiator. Such a body would fill the frame better than the tog next to you who has a FF body -- when you are both using a 600mm f/4 + 1.4x TC trying to capture a black bear cub in the tree. You can't get closer but you are both glad to have noise performance and shadow detail superior to what an APS-C sensor would provide due to its elevated pixel density. who's gonna get the better photo? 

I Refer to Rocky's well articulated analysis of the FOV benefits and tradeoffs. Great job Rocky. 

On another note -- honestly I don't consider any of the historical argments valid at all, i.e. why or how APS-H came to be. I don't care how it came to be, I care that it is. I care about whether or not its benefits will survive the market pressures and perceptions, and I care whether or not it is part of Canon's strategic roadmap.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 17, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Rocky said:


> There are a few interesting and heated discussion about APS-H. Here is my take on it. APS-H is 56% larger than the APS-C. A 28 MP APS-H will have the same pixel density density as the 18 MP APS-C. So it is an easy way to increase pixel count without losing image quality. If we go the opposite way. Keep 18MP on the APS-H we will have better picture quality, better dynamic range than the 18MP APS-C. The cost of APS-H sensor will be definitely less than the FF sensor.



I'd prefer the 28 MP APS-H, personally. 



Rocky said:


> So far there are two argument against the APS-H: "Reach" and not enough wide angle lenses. For me both are not as important as it sounds. There is only a 20% difference in "Reach" between APS-H and APS-C. It is not such a big deal. It is the same difference between a 250mm lens and a 300mm lens. In real world. It doe not matter. As for wide angle. There is a 14mm L. It will be equal to 18mm on the APS-H and 22.4mm on the APS-C. There Is a EF-S 10-22mm. That will make it a 16 to 35mm on APS-C. There is about 10% difference in coverage between 18mm and 16mm coverage. It is a big deal when we need it. But how many of us will be using these focal length???
> For the APS-C user that is having a 17-40mm L. Your effective wide angle will be increased from a 27mm coverage to 22mm coverage. That is a bonus.



Not sure I buy this - where do you draw the line? 20% more reach is 400mm to close to 500mm - that's significant. 10% wider doesn't sound like a lot, but when you look at 16mm vs 18mm, it's a bigger difference than it sounds.

What I'd really like is for Canon to deliver an APS-C sensor with significantly lower ISO noise, and put it in a 1-series type body.


----------



## unfocused (Jun 17, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



> What I'd really like is for Canon to deliver an APS-C sensor with significantly lower ISO noise, and put it in a 1-series type body.



I'd be happy with that sensor in a 5- or 7-series body.


----------



## wickidwombat (Jun 18, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

I think 28MP APS-H would be a bit much with current sensor tech
i'd be concerned about potential IQ issues also it will kill the ability to have high FPS

stick it at 22MP
9 or 10 FPS
dual cards
5D3 body, same VF etc, same level of customisation
1Dmk4 AF including keeping the f8 AF


----------



## dlleno (Jun 18, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



wickidwombat said:


> I think 28MP APS-H would be a bit much with current sensor tech
> i'd be concerned about potential IQ issues also it will kill the ability to have high FPS



as long as we're still amusing ourselves with the possibility of an APS-H body...

yes this is what, imho, makes it less likely that an APS-C body will become a go-to crop body for pro wildlifers along side the 1DX. Even if Canon pulls some astonishing breakthrough that makes APS-C viable for this purpose, it would seem the advantage would even better realized if such a breakthrough were applied to APS-H instead -- unless of course the breakthrough were so astonishing that H offered little advantage over C, in which case the next 48MP FF will render the whole question moot anyway. 

So -- until such a breakthrough happens, Canon could keep dodging and dancing with the competition instead of confronting it head on -- by offering an H body with a unique mix of reach and IQ. 

I would also suggest that the "missing" FOV/Focal length concerns relative to APS-H are not important if Canon is expecting the pro togs to also carry a 1DX.


----------



## PhotoCharlie (Jun 18, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

So long as we're all speculating (whether you can justify it technically, or with market segmentation, or with competition, let's all agree it's simply fun to speculate), here's some I haven't seen suggested, or haven't seen in this thread.


Mirrorless becomes the new entry level multi-lens camera
4Ti/650D is the continuation of the xxD APS-C series (continuing the 60D body form factor step down from 50D)
70D is the entry level FF at $1500 (MP properly sized for proper video downsizing, but smaller MP than 5Diii)
7Dii remains the premier APS-C with new 22.1MP for improved video downsizing and the rumored 2.0 firmware features.
A 5Diii variant (4D anyone or how about 5Diiix?) with FF big MP in a density/ratio that retains the 5Diii video downsizing benefits.

So there would be 2 mid level segments with APS-C and FF cameras for each: the mostly affordable entry level enthusiast and the more expensive advanced enthusiast/pro.

My 2 cents (or at least my current speculation whether I beleive it or not).


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## Richard8971 (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



PhotoCharlie said:


> Mirrorless becomes the new entry level multi-lens camera
> 4Ti/650D is the continuation of the xxD APS-C series (continuing the 60D body form factor step down from 50D)
> 70D is the entry level FF at $1500 (MP properly sized for proper video downsizing, but smaller MP than 5Diii)
> 7Dii remains the premier APS-C with new 22.1MP for improved video downsizing and the rumored 2.0 firmware features.
> A 5Diii variant (4D anyone or how about 5Diiix?) with FF big MP in a density/ratio that retains the 5Diii video downsizing benefits.



I would have to agree but I am not sure I see the XXD becoming FF. Reason? It's the same reason why the XD line will not become FF, too many XXD owners and XD owners have EF-s lenses. An upgrade HAS to be justified by the buyer and if the upgrade cannot use ones current hardware, what's the point of upgrading?

Example, the 5D line has ALWAYS been FF, just as the Rebel line has ALWAYS been APS-C and so on and so on. Canon intergrated two high performance lines (1Ds and 1D) for the better, BUT APS-H bodies CANNOT use EF-s lenses SO, it makes sense to upgrade to the newer body. 

I forsee the XXD and XD line becoming the new flagship APS-C camera (into the 7DII) and a new 5 series (or 3D) FF entry level. Canon will likely stay within current camera labels or create new ones (I.E. 3D or 6D) Simple marketing is my reasoning, they will likely keep the current tried and proven trends going.

D


----------



## wickidwombat (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons

1) lets be real there are a total of 2 EF-S lenses worth having that are affected the 17-55 and the 15-85
the rest are blown away by EF lenses

2) yes there are good non canon Dx lenses but I dont think canon really care about them 

3) when people are using the crop for reach arguement they are NOT talking about EF-S lenses they are using longer EF lenses and often L lenses


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



wickidwombat said:


> the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons



Um WRONG. Some EF-s lenses are just as good as many "L" class lenses and Canon continues to produce them.

Example: Standard Zoom Lenses (7 EF-s lenses vs 3 EF lenses and 1 is a replacement)

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/ef_lens_lineup

Some EF-s lenses are very expensive, tell this to many happy EF-s lens owners, like myself, that Canon somehow will not take EF-s lenses into consideration when releasing an upgrade to a current camera line.

D


----------



## wickidwombat (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons
> ...



yes i specified all 2 of them :


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



wickidwombat said:


> yes i specified all 2 of them :



Well, say what you want, but I own EF-s lenses as well as EF "L" lenses and some EF-s lenses I have I will put against "L" glass anyday.

D


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## wickidwombat (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

woops i missed the 10-22 so there are 3 the rest are pretty lackluster


----------



## dlleno (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



wickidwombat said:


> the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons
> 
> 1) lets be real there are a total of 2 EF-S lenses worth having that are affected the 17-55 and the 15-85
> the rest are blown away by EF lenses



I don't think I can buy this argument. first of all, you left out the 10-22. All three are high dollar S lenses which equal or approach L optical quality in a less expensive build quality. serious APS-C body users will have one and usually two out of the three


> 3) when people are using the crop for reach arguement they are NOT talking about EF-S lenses they are using longer EF lenses and often L lenses



well this point is not valid either because when people use the crop for reach argument along with the EF-S lens question they are talking about preserving their camera body's ability to function at WA and UWA FOVs with their existing glass. Look up the price of the 10-22 and the 17-55, and then imagine the migration to a FF body, making that investment suddenly useless. Thats big evidence in favor of an APS-C 7D2, and 70D bodies.


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dlleno said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons
> ...



Well put, thank you. 

D


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



wickidwombat said:


> woops i missed the 10-22 so there are 3 the rest are pretty lackluster



Well, that's still 3 EF-s lenses to 2 EF lenses (In ONLY the standard zoom line), and Canon has shown it's dedication to the EF-s line by coming out with some pretty impressive EF-s lenses, hands down. 

Oh, and not every "EF" lens ever produced were of excellent quality either, BUT some EF-s lenses HAVE shown themselves to be "L" class quality optically.

D


----------



## wickidwombat (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

yeah I added the 10-22 that I missed out and you will notice the 3 lenses are they 3 that preserve the wide end on APS-C they are they only EF-S lenses that fit into the higher quality bracket. for the tele end APS-C give you the 2 added benefits on the EF lenses of sweet spot effect and the additional reach.

If the 70D steps back into having decent build quality and good features and regain the top level APS-C crown

it leaves room for a high performance APS-H camera which has the following significant advantages over APS-C

1) significantly better image quality
2) still get the sweet spot effect
3) till get some additional crop factor reach but not at the expense of image quality
4) ability to increase FPS over FF

of course this is all based on current sensor tech, If crop sensors can overcome the current IQ issues and approach current FF IQ then I would expect to see a similar jump in corresponding FF image quality.

Personally I think the way to go would be for a APS-H camera to enable a crop mode similar to nikon with EF-S lenses giving a boosted FPS due to smaller file sizes
for example 8 FPS in APS-H mode and with an EF-S ens attached the image size is reduced automatically to fit the image circle and FPS increase to 10 FPS

Also important would be to not use the new 61pt AF and use the old 1D 45 pt AF including the f8 AF

this would be the best way to make a killer crop camera that can really hand it to the competition but more importantly fill several gaps appearing in canons line.

I still maintain there are only 3 EF-S lenses made by canon worth owning


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## unfocused (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

Just to add some fuel to the fire: I don't think we know what the quality of the new 18-135 STM lens is yet, so that might be Number Four.

Does make you wonder too, if Canon is considering changing formats, why they would be releasing their first affordable zoom for video in EF-S format? 

I think I'm just going to surrender on the whole APS-H format discussion. It's become a religious issue for some people and no amount of logic or facts will shake their faith that APS-H will rise from the dead and walk the earth again.


----------



## wickidwombat (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



unfocused said:


> Just to add some fuel to the fire: I don't think we know what the quality of the new 18-135 STM lens is yet, so that might be Number Four.
> 
> Does make you wonder too, if Canon is considering changing formats, why they would be releasing their first affordable zoom for video in EF-S format?
> 
> I think I'm just going to surrender on the whole APS-H format discussion. It's become a religious issue for some people and no amount of logic or facts will shake their faith that APS-H will rise from the dead and walk the earth again.


true about the 18-135 STM however looks like its going to be more of a video lens than for stills.

I am a self confessed shameless APS-H fanboi.  I have no problem admitting that

APS-C crowd have their fair share of zealots too 

I think alot of people that have never owned or used 1D bodies write APS-H off as a half way solution
they dont realise that those are actually where its strengths lie
everyone that use them know how much better they are than the on paper specs appear
ever used a 16-35 f2.8L II on an APS-H? it gives you 20-48mm effectively corner to corner sharp 
and makes for the best walkaround lens around IMO (many other will agree)


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



wickidwombat said:


> _If_ the 70D steps back into having decent build quality and good features and regain the top level APS-C crown...



Your words, itallics and underline mine. That my friend is a BIG IF!!!

The downgrade of the XXD line (I.E. 60D... R.I.P. XXD line...  ) and the upgrade of the Rebel line tells me that the XXD line will soon pass like the cassette tape and Beta video tape player.  (Dodo bird, Dinosaurs... you get the idea) I mean come on, WHY would Canon make the T4i so close to the 60D in features if that wasn't the plan? That is one HUGE jump for the lowely "Rebel" line, really.

The XD (7D) body was meant to be a test bed for the features found in the 5DIII, 1DX and other future cameras and was DESIGNED AND MARKETED to be the flagship APS-C camera. 

Now, tell me WHY Canon would "upgrade" a dying, "downgraded" XXD class body in favor of dropping it's current flagship XD line? (7D)

The 7D upgrade (7DII) WILL remain APS-C AND the flagship camera body, you can bank on it.

D


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

And just for the record, I own BOTH FF and APS-C camera bodies. I love them both for what they can and cannot do. I mean come on, Canon WILL NOT make ONE camera for everyone, they can't!!! So, each camera body offers something that appeals to one shooter and not to another, for whatever reason.

There will ALWAYS be APS-C cameras and FF and whatever sensors... Not one is better than another, depending on your budget/shooting needs. Get over it.

D


----------



## wickidwombat (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > _If_ the 70D steps back into having decent build quality and good features and regain the top level APS-C crown...
> ...



That pretty sound logic and I agree

(its nice to be able to have these discussions / arguements without it degenerating into name calling )

definately see room for only 2 APS-C bodies too

I think canon need to step up the game with the 70D to counter the nikon and sony offerings

I would be disapointed to see the use the same sensor from the 650D in the top line APS-C since it doesnt really look like much more than a rehash of the existing sensor (this is said without any real reviews being done at this date)

there is no reason they couldn't make the 70D the next 7D take the existing body maybe tweak the weathe sealing a bit and bugger up the image review zoom like they did on the 5Dmk3 
give it dual card slots better AF (personally I would just bolt the 1Dmk4 AF straight in and call it done) better sensor say a new gapless microlens 22MP APS-C to further differentiate from the rebel.

this gives them the 80D and 90D for 2 more generations by which time the playing field will be vastly different with mirroless etc and the landscape changing alot

I really dont know what they will do with the 7D maybe keep it as an experimental proving ground?

I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.

same goes for the king of crops be it a 70D or a 7Dmk2 it needs to substantially stand out from the rebels


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



wickidwombat said:


> (its nice to be able to have these discussions / arguements without it degenerating into name calling )



Oh I agree.  Part of the "rumors" thing is that I really don't know for sure, but it's fun to speculate.

D


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



wickidwombat said:


> I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.



I don't think the APS-H is "dead" as others would think. I would believe that Canon will produce a APS-H high performace camera body in the next year or so, based on the 120MP APS-H prototype sensor they made a year ago. 

D


----------



## wickidwombat (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.
> ...



LOL wouldnt that be funny wait for all the MP junkies to have switched to nikon sold all their lovelly L glass then say "stuff it you know what lets just release this bad boy who cares if anything can actually resolve it"
mind you even with dual digic 5+ i would think 120MP APS-H would struggle to push out more than 2 fps if it was lucky, still landscapers would go gaga for it


----------



## Chewngum (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.
> ...



I sincerely doubt the 120MP sensor will be making into a DSLR, imagine the 200MB files with current computing power and storage speeds. I do think that APS-H is not coming back and hope that it doesn't. I would much prefer Canon put some real R&D into APS-C and produce something which even nearly matches what competitors have been offering for years, think Pentax K5 or Sony 16MP. APS-C would give the reach people are asking for in a pro body, pair it with the 1d4 AF and your set. Then it would retain f8 focusing for the people who like essentially using telescopes and given the right build would be a worthy filler for the wildlife and super-duper-telephoto photographers. Price it at $2500AUD $2100US 2000EURO and people will happily pay the premium for some pro-er features and it'll be king of the crops.


----------



## Wild (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.
> ...



120 megapixels?! Those'd sell like hotcakes! Why aren't they selling those already??? 

In all seriousness though, I think the safest bet here is an upgraded 70d to the top of the line aps-c, and getting rid of the 7d line. Why? Because Canon won't just let Nikon steal all the thunder with an entry-level FF. And with an entry level FF at a similar price point to a 7dii, what's the point of the 7d line? (We know the point, but most consumers wouldn't) Why not just go back to the old days where xxD was top of the line aps-c? 

Make the 70d a 7dii-equivalent, but price it a few hundred less than the FF entry level camera, and everybody is happy (including Canon since they won't have two cameras at the same price competing for sales). 

Oh and if they do decide to release an entry-level full frame, my money is going to it being called a 6d ;D


----------



## wickidwombat (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Chewngum said:


> Richard8971 said:
> 
> 
> > wickidwombat said:
> ...



if they just took the 1Dmk4 bits as they are now stuck it all in a 5Dmk3 body and sold it at $2500 i would buy one as soon as i could find one  even if it is only 16MP


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Wild said:


> Make the 70d a 7dii-equivalent, but price it a few hundred less than the FF entry level camera, and everybody is happy (including Canon since they won't have two cameras at the same price competing for sales).



Won't happen. The 60D has become the "joke" of the Canon EOS bodies (I have seen it being called "The Rebel that should have been") compared to features found on previous XXD bodies. (What? The 30D had 5 fps as well... wait, at least the 30D had a metal body...) Tell me what other Canon EOS body was DOWNGRADED and then UPGRADED to the flagship body. 

Like I have said, the 7D was designed and marketed as the FLAGSHIP APS-C camera body and will remain so. Can anyone give me a reasonable reason why the 7D replacement (and continue the 7D name) will not continue this tradition?? Oh and what marketing strategy are you basing your logic on? Remember, marketing (sales based on previous bodies) is the only thing Canon will be concerned with when they make a APS-C replacement and if you don't believe me, then you going to be sadly dissapointed with your prediction(s). 

The 60D was "downgraded" so AS NOT TO DIRECTLY COMPETE with the 7D. Fact, fact, fact...  

So now why would the so called "future" 70D compete with the 7D OR it's replacement? Based on history, the 70D should be, "feature-wise" somewhere in the lines of the 40D or XSi.... Makes sense to me.  I mean why not? The new T4i is darn near a 60D in a slightly smaller body, so where does that leave the 70D? 7D status? They already have a 7D status camera body, THE 7D!!!

D


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> The XD (7D) body was meant to be a test bed for the features found in the 5DIII, 1DX and other future cameras and was DESIGNED AND MARKETED to be the flagship APS-C camera.
> 
> Now, tell me WHY Canon would "upgrade" a dying, "downgraded" XXD class body in favor of dropping it's current flagship XD line? (7D)
> 
> ...



The 7D is the top prosumer sports body and that is a niche that Canon have dominated for some years.

There is no reason why Canon cannot trickle down and improve this technology into the 70D - the traditional nomenclature for the prosumer range

In place of the 7D a new sports body would be needed to surpass the 70D. I dont believe the technology is important for the sports camera however it would have to:

- be good for birds/wildlife
- be good for sports
- be good in low light
- be good at higher iso (to keep the shutter speed fast)
- have good IQ/DR for bigger prints

There are 3 current technologies, APS-C, APS-H, FF

The difficulty here is that APS-C and FF fail on several points whereas APS-H is good (not excelling) at all of them

I believe that the EF-S issue can be discounted for a sports camera as the sports lens are all EF. Those with the high value EF-S lens would have a 70D which be at least as good as the 7D - perhaps with the same sensor as the 650D plus other enhancements

That leave APS-H as the easiest technology to use - as it has already been developed into the best sports camera, So trickling that technology down to the sports camera would cost least, be quick to get to market and give Canon a high profit body (due to the low R&D)


----------



## Wild (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> Wild said:
> 
> 
> > Make the 70d a 7dii-equivalent, but price it a few hundred less than the FF entry level camera, and everybody is happy (including Canon since they won't have two cameras at the same price competing for sales).
> ...




Let's just assume here for a second (this is a _rumors_ site here so cut me some slack) that if and when the D600 is released at around $1500 (the D800 rumors of $3K were spot on if you remember) that Canon will more than likely release a new body to compete. All signs point to an entry-level FF anyways so it's more than likely to compete on pricing. So if Canon does release this body in the $1500-$2000 range, they're going to release a new version of the 7D in the same exact price range, if not more? That just doesn't make much sense - from a marketing stand point. I mean there's already enough confusion for consumers as it stands now, let alone if they release two more new bodies, one with the superior FF sensor with less features and one with an aps-c sensor with more features, at nearly the same price. Just doesn't add up if you look at it from a pricing perspective. 

A 70d bump into the premium aps-c spot in the lineup makes sense. If they did however progress both the 60d and 7d with aps-c sensors, then what? A $850 T4i, a $1500ish 70d, and a $2000ish 7dii? Doesn't add up with a prospective entry-level FF (unless of course Canon's answer to the D600 is a $2700 6D FF camera) ;D


----------



## Wild (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> That leaves APS-H as the easiest technology to use - as it has already been developed into the best sports camera, So trickling that technology down to the sports camera would cost least, be quick to get to market and give Canon a high profit body (due to the low R&D)



I'm right there with ya on the 70d being able to be bumped up to the 7d's spot, and that an aps-h sensor'd body would be a great alternative for the affordable pro sports camera, rather than another aps-c body.

Also, they bumped the 1d series up to FF, why can't they bump the 7d up to aps-h? Sounds reasonable to me...then again when has that ever mattered? ;D


----------



## lola (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

If D600 is announced with the rumored specs and a price tag of $1500, there's no salvation for Canon after that. Fanboys were always good with finding blind excuses for dynamic range, resolution and stuff but I wonder what they'll say for the presumably good full-frame D600 with a $1500 price tag...


----------



## Birdshooter (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

Who cares about Full Frame. Not me that is for sure.
I would like a camera 7D style APS-C with better AF and better noise control. The 7D itself is already a terrific body.

When going to FF it means that I will have to invest in glass as well. More mm to get the same VOF. Don't give me the crap of adding extenders because:
 A) Already using extenders
 B) With extenders you will loose a stop of light (or two), but more important, you will loose AF speed and accuracy 

Example the 300 F4 on an APS-C wil give you 480mm F4. This lens costs USD 1,500
To get the same VOF and aperture, you will need the 500 F4. This lens is just USD 9,000

Just explain to me why an wildlife photographer shooting birds would want to go FF. Why?


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Birdshooter said:


> Who cares about Full Frame. Not me that is for sure.
> I would like a camera 7D style APS-C with better AF and better noise control. The 7D itself is already a terrific body.
> 
> When going to FF it means that I will have to invest in glass as well. More mm to get the same VOF. Don't give me the crap of adding extenders because:
> ...



This is why there is the suggestion of an APS-H sensor in the same body. The better high iso performance allows you to keep the shutter speed up at dawn and dusk. The equivalent lens to the 300 f/4 would be the 400 f/5.8 at a simillar cost.


----------



## dlleno (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> ...I am not sure I see the XXD becoming FF. Reason? It's the same reason why the XD line will not become FF, too many XXD owners and XD owners have EF-s lenses. An upgrade HAS to be justified by the buyer and if the upgrade cannot use ones current hardware, what's the point of upgrading?
> 
> Example, the 5D line has ALWAYS been FF, just as the Rebel line has ALWAYS been APS-C and so on and so on. Canon intergrated two high performance lines (1Ds and 1D) for the better, BUT APS-H bodies CANNOT use EF-s lenses SO, it makes sense to upgrade to the newer body.
> 
> ...



nothing wrong with your reasoning; I would just bring in the following factors that seem to get left out of the discussions:

1. Canon has already telegraphed a willingness to shake up what has "always" been, in the product line, by merging the 1D and 1DS. So names like 7D2 and 7DX could appear, even at the same time, or some new integer that hasn't been used before. 

2. The "glass" impact in (1) above for the 1D folks is not trivial. these guys have to either buy more glass and/or produce lower res shots by cropping. This is no insignificant thing especially for birds and small wildlife. make no mistake: the distance-constrained situation does actually happen, in spite of all the comments from those are speaking without experience. 

3. Canon has not yet telegraphed how they will maintain their stated commitment to pro wildlife market

These factors leave lots of room to speculate on how Canon will fulfill (3) above. I see two possibilities

1. APS-H is out: pretty clear; 7D2 re-asserted as flagship crop body in APS-C and the pro togs carry a 7D2 as a second body. I'm still not sure there is room for four APS-C bodies... but thats another subject

2. APS-H is in: no matter what the new H body may be called, there will still be a premier APS-C body, so current 7D owners will have a choice to upgrade to the latest APS-C or have both H and C bodies to preserve their EF-S investment.


----------



## pknight (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

The APS-H is a compromise for everyone. Those who want "reach" don't want to drop down to 1.3x, and those who want FF benefits don't want to, well, drop down to 1.3x. It should die.


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## unfocused (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

Can someone explain the logic here to me, because no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't make sense.

*1) There are too many APS-C camera bodies.* According to whom? They are all selling quite nicely, which is the criteria Canon and Nikon use to judge whether or not their marketing strategy is working. Does someone on this forum have some inside knowledge or secret criteria that trumps sales?

*2) Canon and Nikon need to merge their second tier crop bodies with their flagship crop bodies.* Why? Both seem to have found their markets and sell very well. As long as both companies recover their costs and make a profit on both bodies, what incentive is there to merge them? 

*3) There isn't enough room for differentiation between the 70D and 7DII.* This is basically a variant of #2, but it is patently false. There is already a significant gap in features and construction between the 60D and 7D. The upgrade path for each is pretty clear: 70D inherits most of the features of the 7D, but retains the same body construction and style; 7DII inherits most of the features of the 5DIII but retains the APS-C sensor. Still plenty to differentiate them both and the full frame differentiates the 5DIII and the 7D II.

*4) You can't have an APS-C body with a single-digit designation. *Probably the most childish and irrational of the points. Who says? It's Canon's company and they can use any designation they want. It's a marketing tool and just like the "L" lens designation, it means whatever Canon wants it to mean. As their use of "L" demonstrates, they don't feel the need to be consistent in anything except that the designation means a higher price.

*5) You can't have both an entry-level full frame camera and a flagship APS-C body.* Setting aside the fact that this mysterious full frame camera has yet to surface, why can't you? If given a choice between a fully-equipped 7DII that basically mirrors the 5DIII in everything but sensor size vs. a stripped down full framer that causes all my telephoto lenses to lose more than a third of their reach, I know which I will pick. Both cameras can exist side by side because they both have different target markets. 

*6) Canon wants to move everyone to full frame. *Well, yes, they said that several years ago. That's good marketing language, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back it up. And, frankly, wouldn't it make more sense for Canon and Nikon to try to move their enthusiast, prosumer and professional markets to _two_ bodies instead of just one. Having a top of the line 7DII and an entry-level full frame just gives them an opportunity to sell more cameras to the same customers. 

Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera. 

(As an aside, how they do that, I think is pretty clear. They will do it the same way they differentiate the 60D from the 7D: Construction. The full framer will likely be an overgrown 60D in a similar composite body with a weaker autofocus and slower frame rate, but with a nifty swivel screen)


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## KyleSTL (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dlleno said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons
> ...


Canon is certainly able to produce cheap, FF AF lenses. They did it for 13 years before ever releasing a single digital body. Who's to say that Canon couldn't or won't produce a decent 24-85mm non-L IS, or 20-35mm, or 18-35 non-L given the right body to go along with it. There are tons of reasonable quality used lenses on the market (20-35mm f/3.5-4.5, 24-85 f/3.5-4.5, 28-105mm f/3.5-5.6, both 70-210mm lenses, 75-300 IS, 70-300 IS) that would go well with an affordable FF camera if/when released, and I'm sure Canon could do better after such a camera is made.


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## dlleno (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



pknight said:


> The APS-H is a compromise for everyone. Those who want "reach" don't want to drop down to 1.3x, and those who want FF benefits don't want to, well, drop down to 1.3x. It should die.


well it is a compromise, but not for everyone. APS-H would fill the same niche that it does today, which is a very good compromise/mix between reach and IQ/ISO/noise, esp in certain wildlife situations that have been mentioned. With sufficient APS-C advances in IQ of course, the need for H will diminish, and that could be what Canon is marching towards or even trying to accelerate. 

in any case, the arguments against "H" have not yet credibly addressed the market needs of those currently served by it, imho anyway. Unless it is "7D2 will be killer APS-C with great low-light IQ, and the pro togs will be proud to carry that along side the 1DX"


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## briansquibb (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dlleno said:


> well this point is not valid either because when people use the crop for reach argument along with the EF-S lens question they are talking about preserving their camera body's ability to function at WA and UWA FOVs with their existing glass. Look up the price of the 10-22 and the 17-55, and then imagine the migration to a FF body, making that investment suddenly useless. Thats big evidence in favor of an APS-C 7D2, and 70D bodies.



They also forget the 8-15 fisheye, 14mm, 16-34 and 17mm TSE and that the 24-70/24-105 that cover the same as their lower grade ef-s lens


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

Whether it's a 7D Mark II or a 70D, it would be stupid to say it won't be an APS-C sensor.


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## briansquibb (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



bdunbar79 said:


> Whether it's a 7D Mark II or a 70D, it would be stupid to say it won't be an APS-C sensor.



The replacement for the 7D could be any of the 3 sensor types - there are valid arguments for them all


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## distant.star (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

.
Wow.

Amen to that!




unfocused said:


> Can someone explain the logic here to me, because no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't make sense.
> 
> *1) There are too many APS-C camera bodies.* According to whom? They are all selling quite nicely, which is the criteria Canon and Nikon use to judge whether or not their marketing strategy is working. Does someone on this forum have some inside knowledge or secret criteria that trumps sales?
> 
> ...


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Whether it's a 7D Mark II or a 70D, it would be stupid to say it won't be an APS-C sensor.
> ...



What I meant was, if the sensor changes, why would it be a 7D Mark II? It wouldn't be a "Mark II", it would be a different model. Otherwise, I can't make sense of it.


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



 bdunbar79 said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



I agree a different sensor would make more sense with a different number - 2,3,4,6,8 and 9 are free ;D


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## dlleno (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



unfocused said:


> Can someone explain the logic here to me, because no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't make sense.



Well I dont' pay much attention to random silliness  so some these I've never even heard of. for example:


> *4) You can't have an APS-C body with a single-digit designation. *


*

even on a rumor site, this one isn't even worth typing in "canonrumors.com" to read *


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## dlleno (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> I agree a different sensor would make more sense with a different number - 2,3,4,6,8 and 9 are free ;D



although... When canon introduced a different sensor back in 2002, they kept the same integer  I guess 10 years later they decided not to do that anymore


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## Albi86 (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



unfocused said:


> Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.



Bingo.
This is why, IMHO, if the D600 keeps faith to its spec/price rumours, the 5D3 will become Canon's entry level. They will price it at around 10% more than the D600, and that will be it.


----------



## Marine03 (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Albi86 said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.
> ...



10% more than D600 would be 1650 if the rumor of 1500 is correct and cannon is not going to drop the price of the 5D3 almost 2 grand in a year. no, but they might release a FF for 1900 that is cheaper construction, hopefully not too much slower in the FPS and with a 19pt AF or something like that and just in firm ware limit the Max ISO to be 25% lower than the 5D3


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## TTMartin (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



unfocused said:


> Can someone explain the logic here to me, because no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't make sense.
> 
> *1) There are too many APS-C camera bodies.* According to whom? They are all selling quite nicely, which is the criteria Canon and Nikon use to judge whether or not their marketing strategy is working. Does someone on this forum have some inside knowledge or secret criteria that trumps sales?
> 
> ...



Agree, this is why I think the 70D will be a full frame enthusiast’s camera, composite body, nifty swivel screen, pop-up flashy with off camera flash control.

It will probably have a lower frame rate than the D600, but, be better optimised for video, with a hybrid sensor (full frame version of the T4i's sensor) and support for auto focus during video and STM lenses.

Price will be higher than the D600, but, will still sell better due to the better feature set.

edit: And if Nikon touts the D600 as being a ‘Pro’ camera, Canon can market the 70D as the ‘first’ full frame enthusiast’s camera. If Nikon touts the D600 as an enthusiast’s camera, then the 70D moniker matches.


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## Wild (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



unfocused said:


> *5) You can't have both an entry-level full frame camera and a flagship APS-C body.* Setting aside the fact that this mysterious full frame camera has yet to surface, why can't you? If given a choice between a fully-equipped 7DII that basically mirrors the 5DIII in everything but sensor size vs. a stripped down full framer that causes all my telephoto lenses to lose more than a third of their reach, I know which I will pick. Both cameras can exist side by side because they both have different target markets.




Of course we know the differences between a flagship APS-C and an entry-level FF, but that's not the point. We're the 1% who follow this stuff every day. For the average consumer, they're going to walk into a Best Buy and have two options with vastly different feature sets for a similar price. 

Can you imagine a 16 year old Best Buy rep trying to explain the differences between the two bodies at a store? It'd probably go something like this:

*Joe:* "These two bodies are basically the same price, what's the difference?"
*Best Buy kid*: "Well....ummm....hang on a sec. Wait! It says right here that this _6D_ has 22 megapixels and this _7D mark II_ only has 18 megapixels. So obviously the 6D is better."
*Joe:* "Oh cool! 22 megapixels sounds great! But what's this thing about 10 FPS on the _7D mark II_? What does FPS stand for?"
*Best Buy kid:* "Ummmm....hang on....I'm not seeing anything on the display about that, but I'm pretty sure it just means it's a little bit better at blocking out the sun than the other one."
*Joe:* "Well that won't be a problem because I always wear sunglasses."
*Best Buy kid:* "Well then it looks like the 22 megapixel one is the way to go!"
*Joe:* "Sounds good to me! Hang on a sec though, I'm going to put a picture of my new camera on Instagram."


In all seriousness though, I think you're right that they can co-exist, I just think it will be more difficult to do if Canon tries to squeeze three new bodies in between the T4i and the 5D mark III without stealing some of the 5D's thunder.


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## Albi86 (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Marine03 said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



Sorry, you're right. This is because I actually think the D600 will be priced around 2000$/1800€. So I guess the 5D3 will eventually drop to around 2200-2400$.


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## briansquibb (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Marine03 said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



So that would be the 5DII then?


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## Richard8971 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> The replacement for the 7D could be any of the 3 sensor types - there are valid arguments for them all



True, BUT like I have suggested already. Canon ALREADY has 7D owners who ALREADY have some EF-s lenses. The 7D upgrade will STILL use EF-s (APS-C), period. Otherwise what's the point of an upgrade? That is simple marketing, nothing more, nothing less.

The 1Ds line and 1D line was a logical merge even though one was APS-H. Why? Becuase BOTH bodies only use EF lenses! Nothing for a current 1Ds or 1D owner to LOOSE if they upgraded to the 1DX! Each camera (I.E. XXD, XD, XXXD...etc) is marketed to a certain group and Canon will continue to market each camera body to that group and BUDGET!

It's easy to justify a camera body upgrade IF it uses your current hardware, right? Otherwise there would have to be a SERIOUS NEED to upgrade a camera body if suddenly half of your equipment would not work with it!!! The 7D was designed to be the flagship APS-C camera and no one can give me a good reason to believe why Canon will dump the current flagship XD line in favor of a new flagship XXD line they just DOWNGRADED last year in the form of the 60D!

D


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## briansquibb (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > The replacement for the 7D could be any of the 3 sensor types - there are valid arguments for them all
> ...



I think the logical conclusion to what you are saying is that if you buy APS-C then you are locked into it for life?? 

What I was suggesting was that a 70D could be the upgraded 7D and that there would be a supersports camera introduced. I dont think it is important which sensor technology it utilises providing it meets the basic criteria.

I rather suspect that someone who needs a supersports/wildlife specialised camera would not be worrying about EF-S lens as their bag might already be full of large whites as there aren't any long EF-S lens.


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> I think the logical conclusion to what you are saying is that if you buy APS-C then you are locked into it for life??



That isn't what I said, please reread my post.

I am simply looking from a MARKETING standpoint from Canon.. Why? They are the ones making the darn thing and then have to sell it to us!!!

An upgrade from one camera body to another HAS to make sense. A person who owns a APS-C camera will justify the costs to FF (or any camera body that ONLY uses EF lenses), IF they NEED the upgrade.

Otherwise, a person will stick to WHAT THEY ALREADY HAVE AND CAN USE WITH THE HARDWARE THEY ALREADY OWN. Times are getting hard, extra money for high performance cameras (esp entry-level ones) is becomming hard to come by. Canon has to make decisions that make sense to future camera buyers AND people who already own cameras and Canon NEEDS them to upgrade, to buy current stock!

Don't know about you, but I work hard for my money and I am only willing to upgrade something if it works with what I already have OR the increased cost(s) are justified by my NEED.

A person who only uses their camera now and then will look at an upgrade differently than someone who makes MONEY with their camera. Unfortunately, the 7D is still aimed at "semi-pros" and mainstream users, not professionals. The 7D does not fall under the "professional" catagory, even though it is one hell of a camera.

D


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> That isn't what I said, please reread my post.



I do beg your pardon I read



> True, BUT like I have suggested already. Canon ALREADY has 7D owners who ALREADY have some EF-s lenses. The 7D upgrade will STILL use EF-s (APS-C), period. Otherwise what's the point of an upgrade? That is simple marketing, nothing more, nothing less.



as meaning that 7D users had no reason to upgrade to anything other than APS-C and that sensor changes (sic to APS-H/FF) were just a marketing ploy


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> The downgrade of the XXD line (I.E. 60D... R.I.P. XXD line...  ) and the upgrade of the Rebel line tells me that the XXD line will soon pass like the cassette tape and Beta video tape player.  (Dodo bird, Dinosaurs... you get the idea) I mean come on, WHY would Canon make the T4i so close to the 60D in features if that wasn't the plan? That is one HUGE jump for the lowely "Rebel" line, really.
> 
> The XD (7D) body was meant to be a test bed for the features found in the 5DIII, 1DX and other future cameras and was DESIGNED AND MARKETED to be the flagship APS-C camera.
> 
> ...



I hate quoting myself, but this is why I feel the way I do about any 7D replacement. (And why the XXD line will be merged into the XD line).

D


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> as meaning that 7D users had no reason to upgrade to anything other than APS-C and that sensor changes (sic to APS-H/FF) were just a marketing ploy



Yup. Otherwise why would Canon make lenses NOT compatible with FF bodies???

Why not just make ONE size sensor for ALL of your cameras, regardless of entry level or professional??? Come on...

D


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> I do beg your pardon I read



Then please don't make something out of what I said that wasn't there. I never said one was "stuck" into APS-C cameras. I simply said that an upgrade has to be justified (for whatever reason) for a person to fork out high $$$ to do so.

D


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> Richard8971 said:
> 
> 
> > The downgrade of the XXD line (I.E. 60D... R.I.P. XXD line...  ) and the upgrade of the Rebel line tells me that the XXD line will soon pass like the cassette tape and Beta video tape player.  (Dodo bird, Dinosaurs... you get the idea) I mean come on, WHY would Canon make the T4i so close to the 60D in features if that wasn't the plan? That is one HUGE jump for the lowely "Rebel" line, really.
> ...



I have never heard of the 7D being the early prototype 5DIII/1DX before and it surprises me especially as it was released not long after the 5DII and before the 1D4

The 7D being a flagship? Again an interesting term I wouldn't have associated with it as it has no 'pro' features. I always thought of the 7D as the camera that the 50D should have been :

- better sensor
- better AF
- better fps (the 50D was slower than the 50D)


----------



## Forceflow (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> The 7D being a flagship? Again an interesting term I wouldn't have associated with it as it has no 'pro' features.



Exactly what features do you consider to be 'pro'? After all the 7D is weather sealed, has a very high FPS, awesome AF, can trigger remote flashes and has a lot of features built in that seem to appeal to the pro folks. (Customization and 3 fully definable presets come to mind)


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Forceflow said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > The 7D being a flagship? Again an interesting term I wouldn't have associated with it as it has no 'pro' features.
> ...



- has weathersealing, not sealed
- fps is no more than high, 40D was 6.3fps, 7D is 8fps
- AF is adequate, certainly not the best AF at the time
- customisation is limited
- high iso is poor in comparison to other bodies of the time

Top of the prosumer range - yes. Flagship I think not.


----------



## Albi86 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> So that would be the 5DII then?



What usually would be of cameras that were already old 3 years ago, I guess.


----------



## ThomasN (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

After reading this thread, I don't quite know what to think.

I did earlier write:

Canon must get their house in order

Entry level FF will be called 6D not 7DII because Canon will kill the 7D APS-C by making it FF and will not have the possibility to get back to 7D APS-C on a later time if that should fit into the lineup.
An entry level 6D makes sense.
And put the 7D to sleep and put the features into 70D, and let th 70D again be the top of the APS-C line.

This gives us this perfect lineup

1D Top of the line pro camera
3D (name saved for 3D video DSLR for movie use)
4D 46MP (or so) studio and pro 4K video camera
5D wedding and architect camera
6D Entry level FF
70D Top of the APS-C line (prosumer)
xxxD Top amateur APS-C line
xxxxD entry level DSLR

So on one hand something tells me that there will be no 7DII.
And then a 70D with all the 7D features, but improved, 22MP, better ISO, IQ, AF and DR, video features from the 650D and so on.
Nikon has just launched the D3200 with 24MP and we know marketing(Canon and all other) would love to appeal to the megapixel freaks. Not that you can compare the D3200 and a feature 70D/7DII.
Nikon is properly the main competitor and Nikon do have 4 lines: DX, DXX, DXXX and DXXXX though it’s mixed together and messy. Therefore it makes sense that Canon still has 4 lines: XD, XXD, XXXD and XXXXD (some order, please )

On the other hand the 7D has a very good position and brand in the market and that speaks for a 7DII showing up and Canon may therefore give still room for an APS-C camera in the FF proff line?

What do you guys think? 

But whatever it will be called I would very much like the new 7DII/70D to be something like this:

Approx. 22 MP APS-C CMOS
ISO 100 – 25600
8-10 fps
Wireless EyeFi
1920x1080 (60, 30, 25 fps)
Hybrid AF
Stereo mic
2x Digic 5
SDXD and CF UDMA
Mid-size Magnesium alloy weather sealed body
OLED 3,2” 1.040.000 screen

This wouldn’t cannibalize from 1DX due to non-FF, lower ISO, lower fps an so on.
And if someone will say: but this is a wish liste. Yes sorry, you will be right.
But it *would * be an _*awesome * _ killer camera and would beat all the competitors out in to the cold for many years. ;D 

And I will like to apologize for my notes with the veeeery big letters on page 7. I did not mean to be rude. :-[ 

PS! Concerning APS-H. 
I don’t think we will see a news APS-H. The technology today is so sophisticated that Canon will rather please the EF-S owners and use a new APS-C (and don’t use the APS-H.) 
And more importent the economic synergy in letting the XXD, XXXD and XXXXD inherit the APS-C over time is too tempting.


----------



## aznable (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

and it has to cost less than 1000€ to be competitive :

so let's start with a price list

xxxxD 400€
xxxD 700€
xxD 999€
XD 1500€-5800€

it doesnt make sense


----------



## Albi86 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



ThomasN said:


> But it *would * be an _*awesome * _ killer camera and would beat all the competitors out in to the cold for many years. ;D



Eeerrr... where is this 22MP sensor that puts Sony's to shame?


----------



## caruser (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> The 7D being a flagship?



Why spend so much time on sticking a label on these products?

The 7D is just what it is, with exactly the features that it has! Discussing the "flagship" or "pro" labels doesn't help anybody because it's completely irrelevant, it's not as if the camera changes because it gets assigned an arbitrary label.

Let's at least speculate about the constellation of the product line-up, or about specifications of non-existing cameras, anything is more interesting than these labels!


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



caruser said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > The 7D being a flagship?
> ...



To go on a journey you have to have directions. Directions are useless unless you know where you are.

So whether the 7D is indeed a flagship product is important and it will detirmine the marketing direction of its replacement


----------



## caruser (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> caruser said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



You can observe that, following the 7D, the xxD line was devaluated slightly, but that with the 650D the trend was reversed by giving an xxxD some features from the xxD line, and can therefore speculate on whether the new 70D will reach high enough to also succeed the 7D, or whether it means that the 7D2 will reach even higher. Now tell me how putting the "flagship" label on the 7D, or not, helps; this is a sincere question, I just fail to see it.


----------



## whatta (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



caruser said:


> You can observe that, following the 7D, the xxD line was devaluated slightly, but that with the 650D the trend was reversed by giving an xxxD some features from the xxD line, and can therefore speculate on whether the new 70D will reach high enough to also succeed the 7D, or whether it means that the 7D2 will reach even higher.


What do you mean with xxD feaure in xxxD? AF? for me it is the normal evolution (it has been the same AF for many generations already). It happened with the 400D too (30D AF). If there was a pentaprism viewfinder in 650D, than it would be something..


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



caruser said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > caruser said:
> ...



If you read the original post you will see that it was suggested that the 7D was the 'flagship' If this is true and Canon replace it with something else then there is a marketing issue.

Personally it is not my understanding that the 7D was a flagship - just the top of the prosumer range. If this is true then I believe there are fewer issues in replacing it with an updated model labelled 70D (again top of the prosumer range) - allowing Canon greater freedom with the technology inside the '7DII'


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

Sorry. When I said "flagship" in terms of the 7D, I was simply meaning Canon's flagship APS-C camera.

Didn't mean to get everyone in a tussle.


----------



## dlleno (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> caruser said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



from a marketing perspective, names are essentially a brand and Canon has accumulated a great deal of marketing capital in the 7D brand. If you consider that the 7D brand itself embodies the top APS-C body, it does seem likely that it would continue to emphasize that brand, and all that it stands for, and therefore unlikely that it would change sensors. 

We can consider this from the standpoint of branding and how Canon intends to fulfill its stated commitment to pro sports/wildlife. Here are some scenario choices, which I would arrange in the following order of likelihood: 

1. Canon emphasises the 7D2 "flagship" APS-C status enhancing the 7D brand to include pro wildlife activities as a companion to the 1DX. This of course depends on suitable APS-C sensor technology that can produce convincingly better images, even under low light, than one can obtain by cropping 1DX images to the same FOV. 

2. 7D2 doesn't quite make it as (1) above describes, but Canon continues their wildlife niche camera brand with a new APS-H camera body, essentially a successor to the 1D4, that does produce convincingly better photos than the 1DX (or 5D3) cropped to the same FOV. If they cannot produce a "flagship" APS-C body with sufficient IQ to appeal to the the pros, or to compete directly with Nikon, they might still punt with an H body -- as expensive as that would be to continue the manufacturing investment of APS-H for only one body. 

2.5: on edit: I guess a less likely (to me) but possible scenario is to put a twist into the 7D brand by making the 7D2 an APS-H body and propelling the 70D to the top prosumer APS-C body. THAT would be a fascinating show to watch, especially on this forum 

3. Canon walks away from its its stated commitment to pro sports/wildlife, and produces no worthy crop body companion to the 1DX, and the pros just crop their 1DX images as subject distance requires. BTW, the equivalent APS-C crop is ~6MP.


----------



## TTMartin (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

XD has ways meant pro level camera and NOT full frame at Canon.
XXD has meant prosumer/enthusiast 
XXXD/Rebel has meant entry level.

The 7D is a pro level APS camera, just like the 1D MkIV is a pro level APS camera.
The 5D MkIII is a pro level full frame camera.
The 7D MkII will most likely be a pro level APS camera.

If Canon comes out with a new camera to answer the Nikon D600, it will most likely be the 70D, simply because it is full frame doesn't make it a pro level camera (sorry Nikon Fanbois). 

Canon could simply choose to lower the price of the 5D MkII to as an answer to the D600.

Even if Canon moves the price of the 5D MkII to match the current 7D it would not substantially hurt 7D sales as the two cameras are targeted to different markets.

An APS sesnored 7D MkII could actually sell for substantially more than than either a full frame 70D or a 5D MkII with a lowered price, one only has to look at the 1D MkIV to realize this.


----------



## whatta (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



TTMartin said:


> If Canon comes out with a new camera to answer the Nikon D600, it will most likely be the 70D


if 70d is FF, then xxxd and xxd owners cannot really upgrade to it if they have invested into efs (like me ). 

I am more in favout of 8d/6d to be cheaper FF.


----------



## Albi86 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



whatta said:


> TTMartin said:
> 
> 
> > If Canon comes out with a new camera to answer the Nikon D600, it will most likely be the 70D
> ...



No, I guess he meant that Canon will have an APS-C compete with a FF by Nikon.
(Science fiction imho)


----------



## TTMartin (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



whatta said:


> TTMartin said:
> 
> 
> > If Canon comes out with a new camera to answer the Nikon D600, it will most likely be the 70D
> ...



Why exactly would a full frame 70D keep your from upgrading to an APS-C 7D MkII?

I upgraded from a 50D to a 7D, because I felt the 60D wasn't an upgrade for my type of shooting.

edit: for that matter you could upgrade to a 7D today.


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



ThomasN said:


> After reading this thread, I don't quite know what to think.
> 
> I did earlier write:
> 
> ...



If the camera had all those features, you better believe it will be a $5k and up camera, defeating the purpose of the replacement.


----------



## Albi86 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



TTMartin said:


> whatta said:
> 
> 
> > TTMartin said:
> ...



You understand how unlikey it is that a hypothetical 70D will be a FF camera, right?


----------



## whatta (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



TTMartin said:


> whatta said:
> 
> 
> > TTMartin said:
> ...


well, 7d is too big and heavy for me and 7d2 will be too expensive too 
a 7d in 60d body (=? 70d) would be just right for me. mainly af and viewfinder what I'd like from 7d.


----------



## TTMartin (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Albi86 said:


> TTMartin said:
> 
> 
> > whatta said:
> ...



No I don't understand that at all. I find it so silly that everybody thinks that if Canon introduces an ENTRY LEVEL full frame camera, that it would have to have a XD moniker.

The only reason there is a 60D at all, is that when Canon upgraded the 50D to the 7D, everybody kept asking 'where is the 60D?'. So, Canon had both a marketing opportunity and a dilemma, slot a camera between the Rebel series and the 7D. So, Canon built the Super Rebel 60D. 

There is absolutely no reason that the XXD line has to continue as an APS-C camera. It actually makes a lot more sense to have entry level APS-C cameras be XXXD/Rebels, and an entry level full frame camera be XXD cameras, and your pro level cameras regardless of sensor be XD.


----------



## whatta (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



TTMartin said:


> whatta said:
> 
> 
> > TTMartin said:
> ...


let's have a 70D apsc and a 70DX for FF then


----------



## dlleno (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



TTMartin said:


> There is absolutely no reason that the XXD line has to continue as an APS-C camera. It actually makes a lot more sense to have entry level APS-C cameras be XXXD/Rebels, and an entry level full frame camera be XXD cameras, and your pro level cameras regardless of sensor be XD.



could be! nor is there any reason why 7D2 cant be APS-H. most of us here would quickly adjust to whatever Canon does. 

Canon can do whatever they want, but their marketing departement might tell them that the 70D brand is important, and that the upgrade path for people with EF-S lenses from 60D to the Rebel branded camera is not acceptable. Here is where we are venturing into the marketing mind of Canon, a venue where not many of us are qualified...

I like 70DX though. cool suggestion by TMartin.


----------



## BXL (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> I think the logical conclusion to what you are saying is that if you buy APS-C then you are locked into it for life?


Only if you buy EF-S lenses. However, many of us buy EF (L) lenses and those work on FF as well. The advantage of APS-C (and the prosumer/pro 7D) is that you can get a much longer reach.


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



BXL said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > I think the logical conclusion to what you are saying is that if you buy APS-C then you are locked into it for life?
> ...



I haven't got any EF-S lens because none of them are long enough. The longest decent ef-s lens is the 15-85 which hardly counts as a sports/wildfife lens - too short, too slow


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

I think you guys are forgetting something in your "thoughts" about future cameras.

The XXXXD is Canon's entry level DSLR now, so there is no reason for the Rebel class to be classed as an entry level DSLR anymore and the features seen on the new T4i equals some found on the 60D/7D and proves my point that Canon is moving that direction.

With canons new mirrorless entry soon and 4 APS-C cameras in the line up, there is going to be a lot of competition for sales. 

The recent "downgrading" of the XXD line so as to NOT compete with the 7D makes me think that the merging of the XXD line and XD line is in the works. Again why would they downgrade the line just to bring it back as the flagship APS-C body and get rid of the XD line? The success of the 7D was extremely impressive so why wouldn't Canon run with it in the next upgrade to the Canon lineup?

The XXXXD line is the entry level
The XXXD line is the mid-level
The XD line is the flagship APS-C

That leaves room for a mirrorless interchangeable camera AND plenty of room for a entry level FF as well as a high performance APS-H. But Canon is going to do whatever they want to do and hopefully soon we will find out who is right and who is wrong.

Who cares what Nikon is doing. The recent features and price of the 5DIII and 1DX prove that Canon isn't "worried" about Nikon's cheap camera offerings. Also Nikon is going the route of high MP/low cost cameras and Canon is sticking with mostly 18MP offerings and a higher price. I think Canon is only worried about doing things their own thing right now. 

D


----------



## wickidwombat (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

or xxxxD disapear / become mirrorless APS-C

xxxD entry level DSLR

xxD or xD top level APS-C doesnt matter there can be only 1

if xxD is the top APS-C then they might get creative with the 
xD and make it a Premium sports / wildlife body say maybe something along the lines of 
a 1Dmk4 in a 5Dmk3 body


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



wickidwombat said:


> or xxxxD disapear / become mirrorless APS-C
> 
> xxxD entry level DSLR
> 
> ...



True... I would have to agree with this.

D


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



TTMartin said:


> I upgraded from a 50D to a 7D, because I felt the 60D wasn't an upgrade for my type of shooting.



When I had to upgrade from my 40D, the 60D wasn't even worth looking at in MO. I went straight for the 7!!!

D


----------



## dlleno (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



BXL said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > I think the logical conclusion to what you are saying is that if you buy APS-C then you are locked into it for life?
> ...




The "reach" APS-C argument doesn't really belong in the same room with the EF-S lens compatibility argument. with the possible exception of the bargin zoom, 55-250 or whatever it is, the folks who want "reach" don't buy EF-S long lenses -- they buy long "L" glass, and after market FF compatible long lenses. 

The only practical value to the EF-S compatibility argument is for the WA and UWAs -- the 10-22s and the 17-55s and the 15-85s -- where a significant investment has been already made, both in $ and in IQ, that cannot be utilized in FF. These folks have to either sell their EF-S lenses and re-invest, or keep the old APS-C body. If one has invested in long EF-S glass, that investment is not very sizable.


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

I think everyone is forgetting that Canon APS-C, APS-H and full frame (35mm equivalent) sensors exist today for two reasons.

1) They correspond to existing film formats, making the switch from film to digital easier for those doing so. The logic behind Canon using these formats in digital sensors is clear.

2) The different sensors have different costs involved in production allowing Canon could offer budget minded entry level cameras ranging to the high performance professional cameras. APS-C sensors cost much less to produce than an equivalent MP full frame sensor!

Am I unhappy that the different formats exist? NO! They all offer something the other cannot. I use my 7D just as much as my 5DII! It all depends on what I want to shoot. I still throw my T1i (with my _EF-s_ 60mm 2.8 macro) in my backpack when I want a throw-and-go camera that will consistently take awesome shots even though I have a sweet full frame 5DII to use whenever I need it! Now, I COULD throw my EF 100mm 2.8 macro on my 5DII, but the DOF (and sharpness, and ease of use) on the T1i/60mm is unmatched. 

Now, will cameras exist one day that are all full frame? Maybe. Will Canon develop medium format digital sensors? That's very likely. There will be no end to the megapixel race as well as to the size of the sensor. (http://news.yahoo.com/supercameras-could-capture-never-seen-detail-171825569.html) For now, we have what we have. 

D


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dlleno said:


> BXL said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



Tell that to Canon, they keep making EF-s glass and some of it is expensive! I own some EF-s glass that I wouldn't trade for anything! 

D


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > BXL said:
> ...



What is being said is that for reach there is no EF-S glass

Even at the wide end AF glass is better for FF

It all boils down to how much you are prepared to spend on a camera system, the more specialist the more money.

There is a leap between the (relatively) cheap 7D and the ff bodies and the glass that is needed to support ff


----------



## benhar (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

Stepping back slightly from what has been discussed, Canon urgently needs to provide an viable upgrade path for its current users. The Rebel DSLRs provided an affordable way for people such as myself to get interested in and then thoroughly addicted to digital photography. I have had my 550D for near on two years and while I still enjoy using it I am itching to upgrade. I am sure I am not alone.

The most frustrating aspects of my 550D are the poor low light performance, weak AF, low FPS and small buffer. Neither the 7D nor the 5Dmkii provide a complete solution to my needs. The 5Dmkiii does to an extent, but it is hard for me to justify spending that much money. A 7D with better lowlight would be perfect and if they released it tomorrow I would buy it tomorrow. 

Right now everything between the 650D and the 5Dmkiii is just a bit tired and old. Whatever it does (7Dmkii, 70D, 6D...whatever) Canon needs to do something quickly because right now it just seems to be floundering.


----------



## wickidwombat (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*




benhar said:


> Right now everything between the 650D and the 5Dmkiii is just a bit tired and old. Whatever it does (7Dmkii, 70D, 6D...whatever) Canon needs to do something quickly because right now it just seems to be floundering.



Very true however I think for your particular situation is that its unfortunate for you that the segment of the line where you are most interested in are in the trough of the wave cycle.

what strikes me as strange is how the 5Dmk3 and 650D released very close to each other so there must have been alot of concurrency in the design have ended up with new features in the 650D that are not in the 5Dmk3, or 1Dx.

Would AF in video in the 5Dmk3 made video people happier? perhaps some
quite likely it would have drawn more fire. touchscreen? personally i'm glad the 5Dmk3 didnt get one 
but i'm sure many people would like it.

When looking at some of this stuff it makes the planning/ roadmap/ product range design seem quite hap hazard

so while I can see your frustration I guess you can console yourself that whatever gets announced in your area of interest it most likely will inherit some features that much higher end bodies dont have

this happened with the 7D too it got heaps of goodies that the 1D and 5D lines missed out on


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## briansquibb (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



benhar said:


> Stepping back slightly from what has been discussed, Canon urgently needs to provide an viable upgrade path for its current users. The Rebel DSLRs provided an affordable way for people such as myself to get interested in and then thoroughly addicted to digital photography. I have had my 550D for near on two years and while I still enjoy using it I am itching to upgrade. I am sure I am not alone.
> 
> The most frustrating aspects of my 550D are the poor low light performance, weak AF, low FPS and small buffer. Neither the 7D nor the 5Dmkii provide a complete solution to my needs. The 5Dmkiii does to an extent, but it is hard for me to justify spending that much money. A 7D with better lowlight would be perfect and if they released it tomorrow I would buy it tomorrow.
> 
> Right now everything between the 650D and the 5Dmkiii is just a bit tired and old. Whatever it does (7Dmkii, 70D, 6D...whatever) Canon needs to do something quickly because right now it just seems to be floundering.



They announced the 650D recently and there is a CR2 for 4 more cameras this year.

A used 1D3 might be a good option - has everything except large mps - and are going for the price of a 650D


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## briansquibb (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



wickidwombat said:


> this happened with the 7D too it got heaps of goodies that the 1D and 5D lines missed out on



What the 1D missed out on cannot have been important as I haven't noticed it. The 1D4 was announced just after the 7D so I suspect it got everything


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## wickidwombat (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > this happened with the 7D too it got heaps of goodies that the 1D and 5D lines missed out on
> ...



it didnt get a Mfn button  or the snazy elctro VF thingo where you can turn on grid line and have the elctronic level, no built in flash commander. no IR trigger reciever


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## briansquibb (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



wickidwombat said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > wickidwombat said:
> ...



I have never used those on the 7D : : :

I can see the benefit of the electronic level


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## wickidwombat (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

just sayin


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## briansquibb (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



wickidwombat said:


> just sayin



I tend to use the same controls on all the bodies so this little differences get ignored

My brain cant cope with the 'which camera am I using today' analysis ;D ;D ;D


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## wickidwombat (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > just sayin
> ...


yeah try the image review and zooming on any other camera and then swapping to the 5Dmk3 and back

drives one absolutely nuts i tell ya


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## briansquibb (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



wickidwombat said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > wickidwombat said:
> ...



... and changing iso in flight.

1D4 is set for auto iso, my others aren't

IIRC the 5DIII is different again ???


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## dlleno (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > BXL said:
> ...



aside from the three mentioned, what is your total investment in EF-S long glass? what long glass do you reach for when needed?


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## Richard8971 (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dlleno said:


> aside from the three mentioned, what is your total investment in EF-S long glass? what long glass do you reach for when needed?



Who said my EF-s lenses were long reach? They make other EF-s lenses. If I choose to spend any amount of $$$ on ANY lens, regardless of EF or EF-s, you better believe I thought it out first and will use it until it dies!

D


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> Who said my EF-s lenses were long reach? They make other EF-s lenses. If I choose to spend any amount of $$$ on ANY lens, regardless of EF or EF-s, you better believe I thought it out first and will use it until it dies!



Which, of course, precludes a shift to exclusive use of a FF camera...

Personally, I had two high-end EF-S lenses - the EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 and the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS - which I used on my 7D. After getting a 5DII and 16-35mm f/2.8L II, I sold the 10-22mm. I use the 7D almost exclusively for birds/wildlife - I think I've mounted the 17-55mm all of twice in the past year.


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## dlleno (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > aside from the three mentioned, what is your total investment in EF-S long glass? what long glass do you reach for when needed?
> ...



sure, not very many of us invest in glass without thinking it through. For example, I have invested in the 10-22 and the 17-55 and this is not a trivial investment, but necessasy to optimize IQ across all conditions with one camera body. So let me re-frame the background of my question -- I was just calling out that there are three major EF-S lenses which form the biggest case for an investment in EF-S glass that would give one pause in a migration to FF, and that an investment in LONG EF-S glass is not sizable. I did think, initially, that your response implied an investment in long EF-S but I see your comment is a more general statement that one one should account for examples other than what I mentioned. 

Not to trivialize anyones choices or investments I was just highlighting the biggest case representing the most likely IQ fanatics that have a sizable EF-S investment that would be most impacted by a move to FF and that Canon would be the most concerned about in their branding and upgrade paths. What are the EF-S lenses you have?


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



neuroanatomist said:


> After getting a 5DII and 16-35mm f/2.8L II, I sold the 10-22mm.



FWIW, after about a year of use I sold my 10-22mm for only $50 less than I paid when I bought it new from Amazon. Pretty low barrier to moving to FF, IMO. 

A bigger barrier that some people cite is the cost to replace those lenses with their FF counterparts. But I disagree - for the 10-22mm, even though I got the expensive 16-35 II, the 17-40mm is only 1mm less wide. Likewise, there are a whole bunch of people who claim that there is no EF 'replacement' for the 17-55mm since the 24-105mm is a stop slower and the 24-70 does not have IS. To that, I say false!! The 'FF equivalent' of the 17-55mm f/2.8 IS would be a hypothetical 27-88mm f/4.5 IS lens - therefore, the 24-105mm on FF is wider, longer, and faster than the 17-55mm on APS-C (note: faster in terms of DoF for the same framing, but the 1.3-stop ISO advantage of FF more than makes up for the 1-stop loss of shutter speed, so really the only thing you lose is activation of the f/2.8 AF points).


----------



## dlleno (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



neuroanatomist said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > After getting a 5DII and 16-35mm f/2.8L II, I sold the 10-22mm.
> ...



I haven't actually heard the argument that there is no FF equivalent of the 17-55, and would gladly take a FF/24-105 over an APS-C/17-55 combination!

as for the migration penalty -- yea I think those who have invested in the high dollar EF-S lenses will find the used market attractive enough to make the transition worth it with minimal cost penalty. These lenses will hold their value in the Rebel market for some time, I expect. I do suspect that other of the EF-S lenses would not hold value as well, but at the same time represent less overall financial risk anyway -- but I'm speaking without experience there...

Indeed I would agree that the 17-55 still makes a very good general purpose lens for a 2nd (APS-C) body


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## distant.star (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*


.
Well thought out post. Thanks.

One point especially rings true for me -- the EF-S 60mm lens has been overlooked as one of the excellent EF-S lenses. It doesn't have the expense, but it delivers great IQ. I've found it also has a very distinctive look that I like. I use it for everything from general macro to landscapes.




Richard8971 said:


> I think everyone is forgetting that Canon APS-C, APS-H and full frame (35mm equivalent) sensors exist today for two reasons.
> 
> 1) They correspond to existing film formats, making the switch from film to digital easier for those doing so. The logic behind Canon using these formats in digital sensors is clear.
> 
> ...


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## Richard8971 (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dlleno said:


> Not to trivialize anyones choices or investments I was just highlighting the biggest case representing the most likely IQ fanatics that have a sizable EF-S investment that would be most impacted by a move to FF and that Canon would be the most concerned about in their branding and upgrade paths. What are the EF-S lenses you have?



Well, seeing as how I shoot with BOTH APS-C and FF cameras I see no reason to NOT invest in EF-S lenses, if the need is there. 

I love my 5D2 for what it can do and I love my 7D and NOBODY is taking my 7D away! My wife loves her T1i even though she has the 5D2 and 7D to play with. You see, each camera will appeal or not appeal to everyone differently. Just because one person swears by FF cameras, someone out there will disagree and they won't be wrong for doing so!

It's not really an issue to me and as to what lenses I own, that is a different subject that is not part of the 7D2/70D discussion we are having. I simply meant that Canon needs to take into account someone who has bought a APS-C camera and if they make an upgrade to it, it should be compatible with what equipment they already own. (EF, EF-s) Canon has maintained that tradition so far and I believe they will continue to do so with future camera bodies.

If there is a 70D, it WILL be APS-C

If there is a 7D2, it WILL be APS-C

If there is a T5i, it WILL be APS-C

If there is a 5D4, it WILL be FF

Any new cameras that do not conform to the existing formats will simply be named something new. (I.E. 3D, 6D... whatever) Pretty simple really.

D


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## dlleno (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

I tend to agree Richard8971, esp as I consider those names to be brands, with a particular market perception that Canon wants attached to them. It will be interesting if Canon Shakes things up, though, with name variants like 70DX, but whatever they do you can count on the fact that a lot of expensive salaries will have contributed to whatever branding strategy they come up with!


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## wickidwombat (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

I hope that what ever the king crop camera is called it gets a different sensor from the rebel to further differentiate it. 

a 22MP sensor makes sense to
A) compete a bit more with the sony 24MP demigod blah blah sensor
B) maybe at 22MP it will help the video people more like the 5Dmk3 was supposed to (I really dont understand this at all but I can see them do that from a marketing perspective)
C) gapless microlens stuff and better iso performance both low and high (IMO this is the achilles heal of the 7D)

I think they should just use the same body as the 5Dmk3 ergonomically its a stellar design dual card slots and all. 100% Viewfinder, No more R&D there boys just whack it in

AF system should really be the 1D4 AF (Again 0 R&D) to retain the f8 AF this makes massive sense since alot of the 7D crowd are people that use great L lenses and would like to be able to use a 1.4 or 2x TC on it for more reach at a sane price examples are 70-300 L + 1.4TC 400 f5.6L + 1.4 TC or the 300f4L +2x TC these combos on a crop with a good sensor will be wonderfull for everyone. I am sure most pros would carry one as an additional body purely for this reason. The 1D4 AF is also a proven system.

It would be nice if it was priced at $2000 or less however given canons current price strategy i would expect to see it at $2500

It all hinges on sorting out the IQ on the sensor!


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



No way I could change between 1D4 and 5D3 quickly. Of course I don't need to, b/c when I can't miss a shot at sports I take the 1D4


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## pknight (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dlleno said:


> aside from the three mentioned, what is your total investment in EF-S long glass? what long glass do you reach for when needed?



I was wondering, just how much _can_ you invest in EF-S long glass? (Or, perhaps, how do you define long glass? ) The 55-250 is the longest EF-S lens offered, following the 18-135. Everything else tops out at 85, I believe. EF-S lenses are designed to give croppers the FOV of wider EF lenses. There is no demand for long EF-S lenses, since people use long lenses to "reach." I mean, who would buy an EF-S lens with the FF FOV of the 100-400 when they can use the 100-400 perfectly well and get 1.6x the "reach"?


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## dlleno (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



pknight said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > aside from the three mentioned, what is your total investment in EF-S long glass? what long glass do you reach for when needed?
> ...



I know what you mean, so not to pick nits here but to be more precise I would state the objectives of EF-S this way: 

1. one of the primary intentions of the UWA EF-S lenses is to give the cropper the FOV of longer EF lenses when used on FF bodies. (10mm on a APS-C gives the equivalent FOV to the longer, 16mm on a FF). 

2. All EF-S lenses benefit from a reduced cost of R&D and mfg, arising from the fact that the image circle does not have to accomodate the larger FF sensors. therefore, the lens can be produced cheaper with equivalent or similar IQ compared to a FF lens. As a matter of practice, certain EF-S lenses bear this out, i.e. 10-22, 17-55, 15-85 (I think thats the "third" one...) 

3. one of the secondary (imho) intensions of the longer EF-S lenses is to give the cropper a way to acheive moderately long focal lengths with a very minimal investment. The 55-250 is a great example of this. 


So yes, generally the IQ aware croppers don't buy EF-S "long" glass -- most of us turn to L glass. But the casual entry level APS-C tog who just wants the full range of focal lengths can obtain coverage from 18 to 250mm with a very minimal investment.


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## briansquibb (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dlleno said:


> 3. one of the secondary (imho) intensions of the longer EF-S lenses is to give the cropper a way to acheive moderately long focal lengths with a very minimal investment. The 55-250 is a great example of this.



The 55-250 was one of the few EF-S I used reguarly - it was good on the 40D for street photography. The ff equivalent of 100-400 is far too instrusive as is the 70-300 for candids/street.

The IQ from this lens was incredible for its cost, and it came with IS


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## samirachiko (Jun 23, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Richard8971 said:


> If there is a 70D, it WILL be APS-C
> 
> If there is a 7D2, it WILL be APS-C
> 
> ...



If there is a 70D, it WILL APS-C

If there is a 7D2, it WILL be the TOP of APS-C

If there is a cheap full frame, it WILL be a 6D


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## pknight (Jun 23, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dlleno said:


> pknight said:
> 
> 
> > dlleno said:
> ...



This is what I meant when I said EF-S lenses were intended to give crop users the FOV of wider EF lenses, the wider EF lenses being those around 16mm. So we agree.


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## briansquibb (Jun 23, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



pknight said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > pknight said:
> ...



Apart from the 14mm and 8-15 8)


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jun 23, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dlleno said:


> Richard8971 said:
> 
> 
> > dlleno said:
> ...



Similar here, I debated long and hard with the option of 10-22 or 16-35, and ended up going with the 10-22 because I knew i was still about a year off from migrating to FF, and while it may be a pain, selling the 10-22 for close to the cost paid won't be too hard - and 16mm on a crop just wasn't wide enough for my needs. Other than that though, I went with the 24-70 L v1, and the 70-200 2.8 v1 no IS.... And sorry to be almost snobbish, but I really don't see the need for IS on any lens below 100mm - I know for some there are valid arguments out there for it, but with L glass, to me at least adding IS on the sub 100mm lenses only means the lens will be more expensive and heavier, and from my perspective, I'd just rather have a steady hand while shooting. On the 24-70, i can take it down to about 1/30th and shoot without worry, 1/15th if i am shooting on the wide end, and on the 70-200, I can go down to 1/60th-1/100th (1/60th at 70mm to about 150mm, and 1/80th-1/100th for150mm-200mm). I would really like IS on the 70-200, and yeah I could get that for about $900 more, or, now that I have used it a bit, the f4 70-200 with IS really isn't a bad option. I find the bokeh on the 70-200 to be amazing even up to f8, of course though, the extra light you can at 2.8 is hard to beat too. Either way, at least from my perspective, if you have the 10-22mm i don't see much reason to go with the 17-55 EF-S lens at all - with most EF-S glass the price makes it attractive, but the 17-55 isn't far off from the 24-70 (well, at least the V1, the V2 is much pricier), but the 24-105 is right in the same ball park. If your at that stage and know that EF-S glass won't work on FF, I really have no sympathy for ya.


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 23, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



samirachiko said:


> Richard8971 said:
> 
> 
> > If there is a 70D, it WILL be APS-C
> ...



+1. There will be no 5D Mk IV announced for at least 3 years. That doesn't make sense. But the post I quoted, I can see that for sure. Remember, 50D, then 7D, then 60D


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## dlleno (Jun 24, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Chuck Alaimo said:


> ...And sorry to be almost snobbish, but I really don't see the need for IS on any lens below 100mm ...
> 
> .. if you have the 10-22mm i don't see much reason to go with the 17-55 EF-S lens at all - with most EF-S glass the price makes it attractive, but the 17-55 isn't far off from the 24-70 (well, at least the V1, the V2 is much pricier), but the 24-105 is right in the same ball park. If your at that stage and know that EF-S glass won't work on FF, I really have no sympathy for ya.



I seriously doubt very many at "that" stage care about your sympathy. People purchase lenses because the capabilities they offer produce results in the situations that are important. 

Not many, with a single APS-C body, will purchase those two lenses in that order, and even if they do, it will be for a good reason. I use my 17-55 a lot, and I use the IS a lot at f/2.8, and highly value both of those capabilities because they increase the keeper rate especially indoors and for handheld HDR. and the lens has great re-sale value as well, with or without your sympathy. 

I also use IS very heavily between 70-99mm and value the difference between acceptable and tack sharp.


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## briansquibb (Jun 24, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dlleno said:


> I also use IS very heavily between 70-99mm and value the difference between acceptable and tack sharp.



IS is a good thing for longer lens. Even my binoculars have IS

However at the shorter end motion blur becomes the main enemy. So for example at 24mm on a ff the 1/30 shots will be sharp, yet any movement of the subject will be blurred. 

From experience I would say that motion blur becomes an issue (except while panning) when shooting under 1/60. On a crop this would be about 40mm where IS isn't needed.


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## dlleno (Jun 24, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > I also use IS very heavily between 70-99mm and value the difference between acceptable and tack sharp.
> ...



That's certainly reasonable. beyond that, the value of IS at even shorter focal lengths is more evident on a 1.6x crop because lower ISO speeds are often used to avoid noise especially when there is no subject movement. Here the rule of thumb from the film days is still good guidance, i.e. to know when IS is contributing or should be used.

That said we should note that some have never had the need or desire to shoot handheld 28mm f/2.8 at 1/6th second.


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## canonrumorstony (Jul 1, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

If a 7D2 comes out with AF equal to the 5DMk3, I will buy one.


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## booshi (Jul 1, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

After hours of searching and reading 7D2 spec speculations, I have come to a point where I think 7D2 will not have a FF sensor. It can have, either APS-C or APS-H,still, the probability of having an APS-H is very less.

This is simply based on a theory:

Lets assume a person, very new to the DSLR community, wants to buy a DSLR. He would go with the Rebel series if he is not a great spender(most likely with T2i, with its lesser price and a great review 8)). If he is ready to spend more, then he would go with 7D for its amazing power. A person having a Rebel series would like to upgrade to 7D and not to 60D as 60D is not that much of an upgrade. So where does 60D stand? Does it have a strong base like Rebel series or 7D? No. 

7D has its legendary sales number and a huge fan base. So Canon would not destroy 7D's line up just to reply for Nikon's cheap entry level FF DSLR. And there are rebel DSLRs to cope the need of entry levels or photo enthusiasts. So we do not need 60D line, as there are many APS-C cameras for each and every need. Thats where 70D come in with a FF sensor and features borrowed from 7D in a 60D body.

So basically,

70D -> FF + some 7D features + 60D body priced above the current 7D - around $1500 or $1600.
Or this can also be a new line up. say 6D or 70Dx  and 70D could still be an upgrade to the current 60D.

7D -> APS-C or APS-H with upgrades taken from 1Dx and 5D3 -> 61 AF, 10 - 12 fps, dual digic 5, higher ISO ( 2 stops more) and low noise at higher ISO, better IQ and probably 22MP if APS-C or 16-18MP if it is APS-H (would be happy if they resurrect the legendary APS-H, but with cameras moving towards mirrorless, canon is unlikely to have an extra burden to continue APS-H sensor parallel to their current active sensors).
Making it the top Crop DSLR, very much suitable for sports and wildlife as it still has a base crop sensor in its body. 

And as all the canon rumors say, 70D will come out first and later 7D2. 70D would come out in September in Photokina along with Nikon's D600 - The 2 entry level FF DSLRs. And after some time, canon would release 7D2, later this year or early next year to haunt the speculated Nikon's D7100.

This is just my opinion, donno what will happen. Have to just wait and watch.


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## KyleSTL (Jul 10, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dlleno said:


> That said we should note that some have never had the need or desire to shoot handheld 28mm f/2.8 at 1/6th second.



What about:
Waterfall photographs without tripod
Cityscape night shots with crowd movement (again, without tripod)
Longer panning shots

There is value in handholding exposures > 1/10 sec, even if some people refuse to believe it. Brian Carnathan (the-digital-picture.com) has a 1 sec handheld exposure with the 15-85mm IS on his review (including a 100% crop), you can't tell me the stabilization didn't have a significant role in creating that image.


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## dlleno (Jul 10, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



KyleSTL said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > That said we should note that some have never had the need or desire to shoot handheld 28mm f/2.8 at 1/6th second.
> ...



exactly right -- that was my point as well. those who reject the value of IS just don't have the need or desire to shoot these situations, it seems.


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## Rocky (Jul 10, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



dlleno said:


> KyleSTL said:
> 
> 
> > dlleno said:
> ...


Also useful for interior shots inside castles, churches, temples,museums etc. where tripod is not allowed.


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## dlleno (Jul 10, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

IS can benefit multiple-exposure alignment for HDR situations as well. my most recent experience was with my feet in the surf where wind, wet sand, and other dynamic conditions precluded the setup necessary for a tripod.


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## wickidwombat (Jul 10, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



Rocky said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > KyleSTL said:
> ...



also very usefull when you are standing on a vibrating platform trying to shoot in low light


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## briansquibb (Jul 10, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



wickidwombat said:


> also very usefull when you are standing on a vibrating platform trying to shoot in low light



Make sure the lens is weatherproof if you are going to take pics on the waterbed


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## wickidwombat (Jul 11, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > also very usefull when you are standing on a vibrating platform trying to shoot in low light
> ...



LOL i would have got a pic of the 1D and 24-105 covered in iron ore but i was too busy
crying like a little girl and trying to clean it all off with disposable glasses lens cleaning alcohol wipes
these do an amazing job by the way. It did cost me $175 to have the iron ore removed from the focus ring though hence why i would prefer a non telescoping zoom


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## samirachiko (Jul 13, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

The canon entry level full frame will be 6D! It makes no sense call it 7D MK2! the xD comeback to FF; the XXD will be top of aps-c! 

My hope is: entry level full frame with swivel screen + 24-105L= 2000 Euro! ;D


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## daniemare (Jul 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



samirachiko said:


> The canon entry level full frame will be 6D! It makes no sense call it 7D MK2! the xD comeback to FF; the XXD will be top of aps-c!
> 
> My hope is: entry level full frame with swivel screen + 24-105L= 2000 Euro! ;D



Why must FF = xD? I have asked this before and nobody has an answer (I am not a long time photography follower so I would like to know from the more senior folk here)

I think PRO = xD regardless of sensor size. From marketing point this makes more sense.

Prosumer & Consumer = mirrorless, xxxxD, xxxD or xxD. Again regardless of sensor size. 

This is why I also think remaking the xxD into the FF entry level, swivel screen + 24 - 105L for your 2000Euro makes the most sense. For this price it cannot be magnesium alloy and fully weather sealed or 100% viewfinder. All attributes I will more likely attribute to the xD line than mere sensor size (from a marketing point of view)


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## briansquibb (Jul 14, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



daniemare said:


> I think PRO = xD regardless of sensor size. From marketing point this makes more sense.
> 
> Prosumer & Consumer = mirrorless, xxxxD, xxxD or xxD. Again regardless of sensor size.



That is a fair way of doing it, however that would mean

- 7D would have to be renamed
- 5DII would have to be renamed
- 5DIII might have to be renamed

and I dont think that will happen

Traditionally the only pro cameras have been the 1 series

The single digits have been the semi pro

The double digits have been the 'enthusiasts'

The triple digits for the 'hobbyists'

The 4 digits the entry level


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## TTMartin (Jul 15, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> daniemare said:
> 
> 
> > I think PRO = xD regardless of sensor size. From marketing point this makes more sense.
> ...



1 series has been the 'Flagship'

Single digits has been pro/semi pro


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## daniemare (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



briansquibb said:


> daniemare said:
> 
> 
> > I think PRO = xD regardless of sensor size. From marketing point this makes more sense.
> ...



By Pro I mean anyone that earns a fair bit of money from their photography. Be it full time (pro) or part time (semi-pro). Also, Pro can also refer to ruggedness and overall ability.

From where I am sitting, the 5D is for sure a Pro camera. I think it is safe to make an accurate (yet unsientific) conclusion that most Canon wedding shooters use that cam - thus it is Pro. And from what I am reading, a lot of sport guys are using the 7D.

For me, there is a distinct difference between Pro and Flagship. The Flagship cam will probably be Pro, but not all Pro cams will be flagship.


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## briansquibb (Jul 17, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*



daniemare said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > daniemare said:
> ...



This is where people get tied up in definitions

- a pro photographer
- a pro camera

are not necessary linked

I know of a (good) pro wedding photographer that has a 400d as a backup body - does that make a 400d a pro camera? And a lot of second shooters have a G series as P&S for receptions.

To me a pro camera is one that will do all jobs, in all conditions, giving top IQ. That to me means 1 series as all the others fall down in weather proofing.

Yes a 5D is used by pro photographers - but how many wedding shoots are out in the rain?


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## jueming23 (Jul 17, 2012)

*Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6*

where is 70d？


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