# Here are more Canon EOS R6 Specifications [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 18, 2020)

> A little bit lost in the hype of the Canon EOS R5 is the Canon EOS R6. We broke the news of this model back in January, and Canon hasn’t done any sort of teasing for it. However, some early specs have remained true over the last few months, and now we have more information about the coming EOS R6
> The Canon EOS R6 is aimed squarely at people looking for high ISO performance, great video specifications, and priced right for a lot of shooters.
> *Canon EOS R6 Specifications: *(New information in *BOLD*)
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## SteveC (Jun 18, 2020)

In bold it says the EVF is identical to the R5

In standard weight it says the EVF has less resolution than the R5.


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## spomeniks (Jun 18, 2020)

This camera is gonna sell like crazy if those specs play out - oversampled, 10 bit 5k video is what most of us would love to see, along with the AF system and those crazy photo frame rates. Not to mention the fact that many people will probably prefer dual SD over CFexpress/SD like in the R5. The control dial on top in place of top down LCD is concerning, though.


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## gatabo (Jun 18, 2020)

SteveC said:


> In bold it says the EVF is identical to the R5
> 
> In standard weight it says the EVF has less resolution than the R5.


I suppose Bold is the CR2


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## arbitrage (Jun 18, 2020)

Lets double check those EVF contradicting lines. Hopefully the newer bolded one is the correct one for R6 buyers.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 18, 2020)

SteveC said:


> In bold it says the EVF is identical to the R5
> 
> In standard weight it says the EVF has less resolution than the R5.



Fixed.. thanks.


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## davidhfe (Jun 18, 2020)

Nice to see Canon isn't skimping on the EVF, since that's one of the biggest concerns DSLR users have about mirrorless.


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## sobrien (Jun 18, 2020)

Same AF and EVF as the R5 suddenly make this an incredibly interesting proposition.


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## Justhandguns (Jun 18, 2020)

Yes, if AF performance is on par with R5, that is actually pretty good, because traditionally in the DSLR lines, Canon used to cripple the AF performance for the lower models. I wonder if the AF is quick enough to capture fast jets or flying bird actions.


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## Tangent (Jun 18, 2020)

Eye detect also? One would think so. Big question aside from price for R6 is DR. ???


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 18, 2020)

Tangent said:


> Eye detect also? One would think so. Big question aside from price for R6 is DR. ???



This is very likely the 1DX3 sensor or something similar. That's my guess.


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## jeffa4444 (Jun 18, 2020)

High ISO points to this being a great combo for the two f11 telephoto lenses. Aimed at birders and wildlife photographers as well as landscape photographers. Mind I never use the video.


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## Fran Decatta (Jun 18, 2020)

Defenitely, before 2022 begins, this camera will be in my bag (my eos R body still having a lot of work to do). If all this info is true and the DR is same or better than eos R and less noise at higher isos, is THE camera for wedding photography


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## PhotoRN86 (Jun 18, 2020)

sorry few questions for anyone who can answer

-could someone explain oversampling 5K video for me please?
- Being C log and 10bit doesn't that mean the grading potential of the 4K and Full HD will be nearly that of Raw video?
-When they say No Raw Video mode I get confused if it means you can grab a RAW frame from the video or does it mean it does not record Raw gradable video
- Ah and do you guys think the R6 will have a joystick also?
nonetheless AMAZING specs!


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## Richard Anthony (Jun 18, 2020)

Fran Decatta said:


> Defenitely, before 2022 begins, this camera will be in my bag (my eos R body still having a lot of work to do). If all this info is true and the DR is same or better than eos R and less noise at higher isos, is THE camera for wedding photography


I was just thinking it would make great 2nd camera to the R5 for wedding work .


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## EverydayPhotographer (Jun 18, 2020)

Group photo makes the R6 and R5 look like they are built on about the same chassis. Interesting set of specs. I do like that these don't alienate the R or RP, but rather appear to compliment the overall body lineup.


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## PhotoRN86 (Jun 18, 2020)

EverydayPhotographer said:


> Group photo makes the R6 and R5 look like they are built on about the same chassis. Interesting set of specs. I do like that these don't alienate the R or RP, but rather appear to compliment the overall body lineup.



AGREED , I got the RP as a camera that can use RF lenses before I got my main body which was the wait for the R5, I really like that the RP will remain to be the smallest mirrorless camera of the bunch and that would make it a more unique secondary camera to have (for travel photography) something smaller and hopefully more discreet.


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## PhotoRN86 (Jun 18, 2020)

sobrien said:


> Same AF and EVF as the R5 suddenly make this an incredibly interesting proposition.



yea I thought my heart was set on the R5 this whole time, but now I'm really curious about the R6.. still waiting for official specs on R5 before i know for sure


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## davidhfe (Jun 18, 2020)

PhotoRN86 said:


> sorry few questions for anyone who can answer
> 
> -could someone explain oversampling 5K video for me please?
> - Being C log and 10bit doesn't that mean the grading potential of the 4K and Full HD will be nearly that of Raw video?
> ...



- "Oversampled 5K video" likely means that when the camera is capturing 4K, it's doing so by reading the entire sensor at ~5.5K, and then scaling that down to produce a 4K image. This is generally going to produce a higher quality 4K image.

With respect to RAW vs 10 bit:
- RAW on the 1DX3 is 12 bit, not 10 bit. I don't think we know raw depth yet for the R5.
- RAW is not chroma subsampled AFAIK, whereas the 10 bit will likely be 422.

A 10 bit, 422, clog image should be pretty flexible when it comes to grading, but probably wouldn't be "nearly that" of a 12 bit raw image.


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## goldenhusky (Jun 18, 2020)

Anyone know "No top-down screen" means the R6 has fixed (no vari-angle tilt) LCD screen on the back or that referes to the LCD screen that shows setting on the top?


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

So I guess with these features, it is going to sell very well at 2500$, definitely more interesting than the R5.


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

goldenhusky said:


> Anyone know "No top-down screen" means the R6 has fixed (no vari-angle tilt) LCD screen on the back or that referes to the LCD screen that shows setting on the top?


The latter, it has a mode dial instead of that, the swivel screen is identical (resolution not confirmed).


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## goldenhusky (Jun 18, 2020)

padam said:


> The latter, it has a mode dial instead of that, the swivel screen is identical (resolution not confirmed).



Thank you.


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## WOODS (Jun 18, 2020)

goldenhusky said:


> Anyone know "No top-down screen" means the R6 has fixed (no vari-angle tilt) LCD screen on the back or that referes to the LCD screen that shows setting on the top?


The latter


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## Fischer (Jun 18, 2020)

"Head detection" but not "eye detection". Unbelievable. Not in the market for the R6, but if I was I'd be severely disappointed.


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

Fischer said:


> "Head detection" but not "eye detection". Unbelievable. Not in the market for the R6, but if I was I'd be severely disappointed.


That one is already included, probably in an even better version than before...
It just means that it won't loose the subject if the head is turned away, goes right back to eye-tracking if it detects it again.


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## Fischer (Jun 18, 2020)

padam said:


> That one is already included, probably in an even better version than before...
> It just means that it won't loose the subject if the head is turned away, goes right back to eye-tracking if it detects it again.



Hope you are right. Time will tell.


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## Baron_Karza (Jun 18, 2020)

padam said:


> That one is already included, probably in an even better version than before...
> It just means that it won't loose the subject if the head is turned away, goes right back to eye-tracking if it detects it again.


That's what I was thinking, where HEAD is different and at times harder to do than FACE detection.


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

Fischer said:


> Hope you are right. Time will tell.


They are not going backwards, they are going forwards.
And in the case of these two cameras, they look like quite a big jump over previous models.
Not sure why the R6 was hiding until now, it is definitely looks strong even on the specs sheet 

Just like with the 5D category, they have lifted the 6D category as well to something much more serious than before, I was definitely wrong on this one, but I am not complaining, probably buying it instead, when the timing becomes right for that.


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## miketcool (Jun 18, 2020)

They both better have intervalometers along with a firmware upgrade that gives the EOS R this functionality.


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## PureClassA (Jun 18, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



WOW

C-Log, 1080p @120, [email protected] Zebras?! Really? 

Was not expecting all that to actually make it down through from the R5. WOW WOW WOW. And considering the new image next to the R5, I think the R6 is back on the table for my consideration. I didn't want an RP sized compact


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## herein2020 (Jun 18, 2020)

Sooo....who still thinks this is a 6DII entry level replacement body? No way with a 20MP sensor, dual card slots, and now 5K oversampled video is this a 6D replacement. The RP mark II will be the 6D replacement.

I still want to know if it will have a recording limit, will record video to both card slots at the same time, and if they will make an XLR module for it...other than that this body is exactly what I predicted it to be; a GH5, GH5s, S1, and maybe even an S1H killer for an incredible price. I don't even bother to mention the Sony A7S because IMO even the GH5 already beats that one.

Lets not forget, probably a reused 1DXIII sensor with IBIS which is the icing on the cake. For those that don't remember, here is my original predictions list:

R1 - 1DX Mirrorless Replacement
R5 - 5D Replacement
R5S - 5DS Replacement
R6 - Video focused body but with less resolution to protect the R5
R8 - Entry level FF Canon Mirrorless (aka RP Mark II)


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## Maximilian (Jun 18, 2020)

If the R6 was close to the RP in size I would have been in the market for it. 
Now as we see that it is a downsized (feature wise) R5 with high ISO as only better feature, I'd start saving for a R5 or a 5D5. 
But it will be VERY interesting to see the performance of the new EVF. 
I didn't expect them R5 and R6 to have the same. I thought that would be som downsizing feature as well. 
Interesting times.


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## Maximilian (Jun 18, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> ... The RP mark II will be the 6D replacement.


True. Let's hope it'll have IBIS and a better battery. So the waiting season begins again


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## Maximilian (Jun 18, 2020)

goldenhusky said:


> Anyone know "No top-down screen" means...


"No top-down screen" means the R6 hase a top dial wheel instead of a top LCD as EOS r and R5 have. No word about the back monitor/LCD/OLED or whatever tech it'll have.


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## herein2020 (Jun 18, 2020)

Maximilian said:


> True. Let's hope it'll have IBIS and a better battery. So the waiting season begins again



I think IBIS is a given, no way will they not include IBIS. And I think the battery will be the same as the R5, from the rumors the new Canon battery will be better and fit the existing 5DIV so it really doesn't get any better than this.


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## PureClassA (Jun 18, 2020)

PhotoRN86 said:


> sorry few questions for anyone who can answer
> 
> -could someone explain oversampling 5K video for me please?
> - Being C log and 10bit doesn't that mean the grading potential of the 4K and Full HD will be nearly that of Raw video?
> ...


That would suggest the camera is using a full sensor width readout at 16:9, which at a 2:3 sensor size of 20MP, you're getting 5K ish. So instead of punching down to a 1.3x crop at 1:1 4k. You're NOT cropping, sampling from the entire sensor area and then compressing the 5K read down to 4K files with 10 bit CLog 422 etc.


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## Maximilian (Jun 18, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I think IBIS is a given, no way will they not include IBIS. ...


Since I own a EOS 200D/SL2 that has that age, age, age, age old nine digit diamond AF I believe that Canon can do everything to downsize a camera as long as they think it sells. 
BTW I only got the 200D as a replacement with some delta money for my 100D that was ruined by Canon service. I wouldn't have bought it to replace my 100D/SL1. 
But it was a fair deal of my Canon service, so I said "yes!".


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## PureClassA (Jun 18, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> With respect to RAW vs 10 bit:
> - RAW on the 1DX3 is 12 bit, not 10 bit. I don't think we know raw depth yet for the R5.
> - RAW is not chroma subsampled AFAIK, whereas the 10 bit will likely be 422.
> 
> A 10 bit, 422, clog image should be pretty flexible when it comes to grading, but probably wouldn't be "nearly that" of a 12 bit raw image.



I have been really amazed at the latitude I've had in that 10bit 4:2:2 C-Log gamma recorded externally in ProRes 422 off the EOS R. I'm assuming this will be pretty much identical. RAW would get you even more, but you have to ask yourself "Is all that extra workflow and computing power necessary for X project?" I would suspect not in nearly every typical case, short some real high end Pro level commercial work. I can't ever see myself using that RAW recording except to screw with it and do comparisons. That being said... IF IF IF Canon were to pay the piper and give us ProRes RAW output ability with the Atomos products (Like Nikon did)... well hell, now I'm interested. Because that basically eliminates the extra workflow issues


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Sooo....who still thinks this is a 6DII entry level replacement body? No way with a 20MP sensor, dual card slots, and now 5K oversampled video is this a 6D replacement. The RP mark II will be the 6D replacement.


The 6D is the little brother to the 5D.
The R6 is the little brother to the R5 (they are just not as far away as expected).
Go figure.

Apart from a high-megapixel and a sports-oriented/more durable model (maybe with an even newer sensor to make it the flagship) and possibly a crop-sensor body to be used with new telephoto lenses, the FF line-up has been pretty much completed (for now)

The RP can soldier on for about 2,5 years until it is time to replace it.


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## Fran Decatta (Jun 18, 2020)

Richard Anthony said:


> I was just thinking it would make great 2nd camera to the R5 for wedding work .



Yeah, it surely is a great option as a second body, but i won't take profit of the R5 specifications, so the R6 will be my main (and only, this last year I only used eos R + 28-70 f2 on weddings). R5 is a monster camera, but very expensive just to have more megapixels. I will use 0 video features. 

My backup body will be the RP.


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## Richard Anthony (Jun 18, 2020)

Fran Decatta said:


> Yeah, it surely is a great option as a second body, but i won't take profit of the R5 specifications, so the R6 will be my main (and only, this last year I only used eos R + 28-70 f2 on weddings). R5 is a monster camera, but very expensive just to have more megapixels. I will use 0 video features.
> 
> My backup body will be the RP.


Yeah I get that , I was going to buy the R5 and keep my RP as the second shooter , I need the R5 because I aslo shot videos for my daughter (music) , so it is has more value to me , now though I think I might sell the RP and buy the R6 so I have 2 cameras with dual card slots .


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

Fran Decatta said:


> Yeah, it surely is a great option as a second body, but i won't take profit of the R5 specifications, so the R6 will be my main (and only, this last year I only used eos R + 28-70 f2 on weddings). R5 is a monster camera, but very expensive just to have more megapixels. I will use 0 video features.
> 
> My backup body will be the RP.


Let's just hope they don't forget the joystick.


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## herein2020 (Jun 18, 2020)

PhotoRN86 said:


> sorry few questions for anyone who can answer
> 
> -could someone explain oversampling 5K video for me please?
> - Being C log and 10bit doesn't that mean the grading potential of the 4K and Full HD will be nearly that of Raw video?
> ...



-Oversampling 5K means it is going to read some portion of the sensor that is larger than the final resolution then downsize (oversample) that larger image into 5K resolution. In the context of the R6 I have no idea what it means; maybe it will be able to output 5K video to an external recorder, maybe only be able to records a few seconds of 5K...who knows until we see the full specs.

- CLog and 10bit will still not quite equal RAW video which is typically 12bit or higher. Also the data rates (30/50/100/150/200/400?), codecs (H.264, H.265?), and color sampling (4:2:0 or 4:2:2?), as well as the compression options (LongGOP, ALl-Intra) can all affect how close to raw quality the video is. Without knowing all of the specs all we can do is speculate. Even with CLOG, is it CLOG, CLOG2, or CLOG3?

-Raw video mode means raw video straight off of the sensor with no compression and metadata that allows you to adjust things like WB in post (similar to raw images)

- I think the R6 will probably have a joystick, though to be honest for video work you really don't need it especially if the screen has tap to focus as an option. My GH5 does not have a joystick and I've never missed it, and my C200 has a joystick and I've never used it except to navigate the menus. The joystick is not a big deal as long as they didn't keep the function bar.


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## Fran Decatta (Jun 18, 2020)

Richard Anthony said:


> Yeah I get that , I was going to buy the R5 and keep my RP as the second shooter , I need the R5 because I aslo shot videos for my daughter (music) , so it is has more value to me , now though I think I might sell the RP and buy the R6 so I have 2 cameras with dual card slots .



Totally, in your case, is a sure movement without doubt. If I were a videographer, R5 would be a clear choice!


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## Fran Decatta (Jun 18, 2020)

padam said:


> Let's just hope they don't forget the joystick.



If the R6 have the same feature to focus as the eos R, for me is ok, if the camera don't have joystick. I feel that I work much faster with the finger in the screen than with joystick. But this is just a personal taste  Maybe with a very sensitive joystick is also fine!


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## herein2020 (Jun 18, 2020)

padam said:


> The 6D is the little brother to the 5D.
> The R6 is the little brother to the R5 (they are just not as far away as expected).
> Go figure.
> 
> ...



My point is the 6D was traditionally the entry level FF, IMO both the R5 and R6 have moved up the scale far enough to leave room below for a new entry level FF which would be the RP. Many people on here were saying the R6 won't be much of a camera due to the 20MP sensor, no top down LCD, and lower build quality. My point all along is that those specs actually are clues to anyone in the video world that this thing will actually be a workhorse for video while still taking fantastic stills....a slot the 6D never held.


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## PhotoRN86 (Jun 18, 2020)

Fran Decatta said:


> Totally, in your case, is a sure movement without doubt. If I were a videographer, R5 would be a clear choice!



Thanks a bunch!!! so was it assume that the R5's raw recording at 4 and 8k automatically mean is 12bit then, which is where WB can be adjusted pretty well in post? thanks for answering all that!


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## chrisgibbs (Jun 18, 2020)

It may be time to come back to Canon, they're doing everything right so far. Let's hope Canon implemented their IBIS right, and it parks/locks in-place *like Nikon's* when Camera powered OFF, and doesn't rattle like Sony and Fuji X-T4.


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

Fran Decatta said:


> If the R6 have the same feature to focus as the eos R, for me is ok, if the camera don't have joystick. I feel that I work much faster with the finger in the screen than with joystick. But this is just a personal taste  Maybe with a very sensitive joystick is also fine!


When I don't want to use the EVF and use touch and drag AF, I really wish I could use the joystick, much more stable for video.


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> My point is the 6D was traditionally the entry level FF, IMO both the R5 and R6 have moved up the scale far enough to leave room below for a new entry level FF which would be the RP. Many people on here were saying the R6 won't be much of a camera due to the 20MP sensor, no top down LCD, and lower build quality. My point all along is that those specs actually are clues to anyone in the video world that this thing will actually be a workhorse for video while still taking fantastic stills....a slot the 6D never held.


Actually, the A7, the entry-level mirrorless FF, was evolved in a very similar way to the 6D line.
First it was the basic one, then it was the basic one with IBIS and minor tweaks (not that big of an upgrade, just like the 6D Mark II)
And then it suddenly steamed ahead with dual card slots, big battery, advanced AF, high fps, and massive video features, but it was still referred to as "the new entry-level model" in Sony's introductory video.

With these features and big upgrades, the R6 is already aiming at the A7IV, which will also be rising to that 2500$ price bracket.


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## herein2020 (Jun 18, 2020)

padam said:


> When I don't want to use the EVF and use touch and drag AF, I really wish I could use the joystick, much more stable for video.



I'm the opposite, I don't want to bump the camera body for say an interview with two talking heads so I tap the screen to switch focus points, the VF mount absorbs the slight vibration vs a joystick which would shake the camera body.

I think both have their uses but if I had to pick one for video I would pick touch AF.


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I'm the opposite, I don't want to bump the camera body for say an interview with two talking heads so I tap the screen to switch focus points, the VF mount absorbs the slight vibration vs a joystick which would shake the camera body.
> 
> I think both have their uses but if I had to pick one for video I would pick touch AF.


Well, the joystick does not take away any features, it only adds one more option.

I just want to use the camera handheld, the left hand under the swivel screen stabilises the camera from the left, but I can't reach over there with the right hand and I want to stay on the grip anyway. With the joystick I can adjust the focus very easily without changing the grip and I can just move over to AF-ON to disengage it if need.
All without any additional accessories, pretty neat for a run and gun camera.

After I dream about this, I am sure Canon will not keep that in there in the R6 and just keep it to the R5


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## kocmonabt (Jun 18, 2020)

Just another video camera. Give us FF with M line ergonomics!


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

kocmonabt said:


> Just another video camera. Give us FF with M line ergonomics!


Not really, it is a stills camera with advanced video features.
The RF lenses are a lot bigger than EF-M lenses, and the sensor consumes more power, so it makes perfect sense to have different ergonomics with a bigger battery.
The RP is as close as you can get to an M body with a FF sensor anyway.


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## navastronia (Jun 18, 2020)

The 6D line is now Canon's version of the a7s - price, features, resolution, and use. If this all plays out and it launches at $2499, I'll feel vindicated 

There was always a snowball's chance in hell that a camera with IBIS and the 1DX mk III's sensor was going to become the new entry-level body


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## janhalasa (Jun 18, 2020)

"Build quality not as good as the EOS R5"

I hope it has a reasonable weather sealing. That's my biggest gripe about the RP - its battery door is a joke.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 18, 2020)

I wonder if it has 5 GHZ wi-fi? The 20mp sensor apparently has better high ISO capability. That could be good if you have a F/11 tele lens.


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## slclick (Jun 18, 2020)

Justhandguns said:


> Yes, if AF performance is on par with R5, that is actually pretty good, because traditionally in the DSLR lines, Canon used to cripple the AF performance for the lower models. I wonder if the AF is quick enough to capture fast jets or flying bird actions.


I believe the word you were looking for was 'differentiate'


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## PhotoRN86 (Jun 18, 2020)

So... does the R6 have better iso capability (does the mean low light capability?) because of the 20MP count? vs the R5's possible 40+? I remember seeing posts in the past that say high megapixels have no relation to the low light abilities... but yea just not sure sure which info is correct.


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## Tsun (Jun 18, 2020)

I think unless Canon has some surprise for us R6 @$2500 won't be much of a competition in photography to Sony a7 III/a7R III, due to higher price, lower pixel count and worse lens selection - unless R6 has something special in terms of image quality, looks like Sony will be the clear choice.


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## navastronia (Jun 18, 2020)

Tsun said:


> I think unless Canon has some surprise for us R6 @$2500 won't be much of a competition in photography to Sony a7 III/a7R III, due to higher price, lower pixel count and worse lens selection - unless R6 has something special in terms of image quality, looks like Sony will be the clear choice.



It's competing with the a7s


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

Tsun said:


> I think unless Canon has some surprise for us R6 @$2500 won't be much of a competition in photography to Sony a7 III/a7R III, due to higher price, lower pixel count and worse lens selection - unless R6 has something special in terms of image quality, looks like Sony will be the clear choice.


It is aimed at the future A7IV (or a bit towards the A7SIII as well).
It has much better video specs than the A7III with 10bit 4k60p, swivel screen, probably better IBIS, more advanced AF, way better EVF and screen, both card slots are UHS-II, etc.
A7RIII is a cheap option to get 42MP, but severly lacking in other aspects, slower frame-rate, not as good AF, no full touchscreen, etc. I mean it is a much older camera of course, so it should be lagging behind.

And while the current lens selection is less, but what they have for the new wider RF mount is looking better than the Sony, with IS on both the 15-35/2.8 and 24-70/2.8 lenses, with Sony one has to go to f/4 to get lens IS, 70-200/2.8 much more compact, etc.
Nothing particularly wrong with Sony, but the EOS R system is looking pretty strong for 2020, and it's only going to get better still.


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## navastronia (Jun 18, 2020)

PhotoRN86 said:


> So... does the R6 have better iso capability (does the mean low light capability?) because of the 20MP count? vs the R5's possible 40+? I remember seeing posts in the past that say high megapixels have no relation to the low light abilities... but yea just not sure sure which info is correct.



I don't think it's going to have better high-ISO performance than the R5.

Evidence: photonstophotos.net's DR/ISO performance chart shows that the 1DX mk. III and the 5D mk. IV have basically the same DR from ISO 400 to ISO 25600, with the mk. IV actually pulling ahead (despite its higher MP sensor) after that point.


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## iheartcanon (Jun 18, 2020)

Is the R6 expected to have better high ISO performance than the R5?

Surely not, am I missing something?


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

iheartcanon said:


> Is the R6 expected to have better high ISO performance than the R5?
> 
> Surely not, am I missing something?


It is probably just a hair better, the AF might also be a little more sensitive and in some video modes (like 4k60p) the ISO should be much better.

The main purpose of this to have a camera much cheaper than the R5, while keeping as much stills and video features as possible.
Looks like they've done a pretty good job with that.


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

navastronia said:


> I don't think it's going to have better high-ISO performance than the R5.
> 
> Evidence: photonstophotos.net's DR/ISO performance chart shows that the 1DX mk. III and the 5D mk. IV have basically the same DR from ISO 400 to ISO 25600, with the mk. IV actually pulling ahead (despite its higher MP sensor) after that point.


There is more to it than just graph numbers and point scores.
Looking at actual test images, from ISO 6400 upwards, the 1DX III starts to retain better colour and detail compared to the 5D IV.
I expect the R5 to improve, but when pushing the ISO beyond 10000 (which most people don't actually do), the R6 might still be a bit better.


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## Sharlin (Jun 18, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> - RAW is not chroma subsampled AFAIK, whereas the 10 bit will likely be 422.



Well, a Bayer sensor inherently has less chroma than luma resolution (half green, quarter red and blue). So RAW footage is unlikely to have much more chroma information than 4:2:2 compressed YCbCr video.


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## Sharlin (Jun 18, 2020)

Fischer said:


> "Head detection" but not "eye detection". Unbelievable. Not in the market for the R6, but if I was I'd be severely disappointed.



I thought this was a rumor, not a comprehensive spec sheet. But maybe I was wrong...


----------



## DBounce (Jun 18, 2020)

This sounds like the camera that a Sony A7S3 would have to compete with. Both 4K high sensitivity.


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## Joules (Jun 18, 2020)

PhotoRN86 said:


> So... does the R6 have better iso capability (does the mean low light capability?) because of the 20MP count? vs the R5's possible 40+? I remember seeing posts in the past that say high megapixels have no relation to the low light abilities... but yea just not sure sure which info is correct.


If you aren't sure if MP count has a significant impact on low light capability (noise), just see for yourself:






Studio shot comparison: Digital Photography Review


Expert news, reviews and videos of the latest digital cameras, lenses, accessories, and phones. Get answers to your questions in our photography forums.




www.dpreview.com





Do the images on the right (lower resolution) look better to you then the ones one the left (higher resolution)?


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## ryebread (Jun 18, 2020)

will the R6 have 1/8000?


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## peters (Jun 18, 2020)

padam said:


> So I guess with these features, it is going to sell very well at 2500$, definitely more interesting than the R5.


I think that largely depends on who you ask. The big gap in resolution can be an important reason for the R5. 
We do a lot of product photography (currently with the Sony A7R IV). And having a high resolution is truely beneficial for clean cutouts and clean retouch. 20mpixel is simply not enough for the kind of quality we seek.
Also landscapes for big prints, birds, sports, weddings, events... all these realy benefit from a higher resolution. 
In video terms, I guess it depends. 120fps in 4k is truely a magnificent features. Its realy a big think for weddings, event documentation, some sports, imagefilms. And the 8k RAW mode may be interesting for some commercial productions. Maybe even in bigger film productions as a B-Cam for droneshots, or shots in tight spaces where a big cinema camera wont fit. 

I think the R6 will be the budget friendly fullfram, just like the 6D was. And it will be VERY much loved by all the influencers on youtube who will recommend it as "the perfect camera out there" for "filmmakers". Mark my words :-D The price point will also make sure that it will sell well. 
But I guess that most working photographers will prefer the R5. Very much like the 6D and 5D. Most pros used 5Ds and most amateurs and advanced amateurs used the 6D (which was also a nice camera, no doubt ;-))


----------



## peters (Jun 18, 2020)

Joules said:


> If you aren't sure if MP count has a significant impact on low light capability (noise), just see for yourself:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True, there is indeed no difference. But an optimized sensor with lower megapixel count CAN be noteable better.
And these examples are cameras with a rather medium difference in megapixel. The 20mpixel compared to 45mpixel is a bigger gap.
Also the R6 sensor may be build for better high iso performance. Just like the 6D was. So I guess that its liekely that the R6 will perform notable better.


----------



## Joules (Jun 18, 2020)

Maximilian said:


> Since I own a EOS 200D/SL2 that has that age, age, age, age old nine digit diamond AF I believe that Canon can do everything to downsize a camera as long as they think it sells.


Not to mention they straight up removed 24p at one point  There's nothing safe from the Canon differentiation hammer (Doesn't sound as fun as the c word )


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

peters said:


> I think that largely depends on who you ask. The big gap in resolution can be an important reason for the R5.
> We do a lot of product photography (currently with the Sony A7R IV). And having a high resolution is truely beneficial for clean cutouts and clean retouch. 20mpixel is simply not enough for the kind of quality we seek.
> Also landscapes for big prints, birds, sports, weddings, events... all these realy benefit from a higher resolution.
> In video terms, I guess it depends. 120fps in 4k is truely a magnificent features. Its realy a big think for weddings, event documentation, some sports, imagefilms. And the 8k RAW mode may be interesting for some commercial productions. Maybe even in bigger film productions as a B-Cam for droneshots, or shots in tight spaces where a big cinema camera wont fit.
> ...


Resolution is probably the most overrated feature ever *for most people*.
20MP is plenty for stills, really.
People can still use a 5D Mark II for landscapes in 2020 and beyond, and create award-winning large prints from it.

45MP is better of course, if one can justify spending more, that's totally fine as well, but it is not nearly as much of a difference as the numbers would suggest.
And people will also pay more for bigger memory cards and more storage, a better PC to cope with the bigger files, when they might not actually need it. It is quite linear in terms of file size increase, but not linear in terms of actual resolution gain.


----------



## WriteLight (Jun 18, 2020)

PhotoRN86 said:


> yea I thought my heart was set on the R5 this whole time, but now I'm really curious about the R6.. still waiting for official specs on R5 before i know for sure


Same here. That 20mp though...that's a tough one. I need a flippy screen as well - has that been confirmed? I don't think I've seen that listed wither way.
EDIT: Looks like flippy screen has been confirmed! Yay!


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## Joules (Jun 18, 2020)

peters said:


> True, there is indeed no difference. But an optimized sensor with lower megapixel count CAN be noteable better.
> And these examples are cameras with a rather medium difference in megapixel. The 20mpixel compared to 45mpixel is a bigger gap.
> Also the R6 sensor may be build for better high iso performance. Just like the 6D was. So I guess that its liekely that the R6 will perform notable better.


Would you mind providing an example for your first point? I can't think of one.

Sure, the MP difference isn't as big in my example, but I had to chose cameras with comparable sensor tech. And unfortunately the 5DS isn't quite the same tech as the 1DX II, as it doesn't have DPAF yet. So any difference could be explained by sensor tech. Nonetheless, I don't think the 1DX II really outperforms it purely in noise. One also has to keep in mind that higher resolutions allow for more effective noise reduction. And that the R5 also has a new sensor. I don't see why the R5 would lack any optimizations the R6 is getting.

I guess that the R6 is just reusing the 1DXIII sensor. Looking at the comparison, I would hardly call that notably better than any of the others:






Studio shot comparison: Digital Photography Review


Expert news, reviews and videos of the latest digital cameras, lenses, accessories, and phones. Get answers to your questions in our photography forums.




www.dpreview.com


----------



## peters (Jun 18, 2020)

padam said:


> Resolution is probably the most overrated feature ever *for most people*.
> 20MP is plenty for stills, really.
> 45MP is better of course, if one can justify spending more, that's totally fine as well, but it is not nearly as much of a difference as the numbers would suggest.
> And people will also pay more for bigger memory cards and more storage, a better PC to cope with the bigger files, when they might not actually need it. It is quite linear in terms of file size increase, but not linear in terms of actual resolution gain.


Hm jeah, I think it depends. I personaly found the difference between the 5D III and my 5D IV with 22 vs 30mpixel not that important (thought notable) in the real world.
But my Sony A7R IV with 60mpixel is truely A LOT better for product photography in the studio. The level of detail is simply impressive (given good light and sharp lenses). It allows for way cleaner cutouts and way better retouching. And the possibilites that comes with the room to crop is also very handy for event-photography. 
45mpixel is a small step back for me, but I agree that its indeed not important in the real world. 

Storage and better PC is no problem though. We use dropbox business with unlimited backup storage. Also big NAS systems with enough space.
Since we used the 1DX II (with ludacrous big files) and now the Lumix S1H (also very big files in 6k) for a lot of video productions, we are totaly used to a lot of massive foldes. Photography is (compared to that) not even a dent in our storage count :-D


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## peters (Jun 18, 2020)

Joules said:


> Would you mind providing an example for your first point? I can't think of one.
> 
> Sure, the MP difference isn't as big in my example, but I had to chose cameras with comparable sensor tech. And unfortunately the 5DS isn't quite the same tech as the 1DX II, as it doesn't have DPAF yet. So any difference could be explained by sensor tech. Nonetheless, I don't think the 1DX II really outperforms it purely in noise. One also has to keep in mind that higher resolutions allow for more effective noise reduction. And that the R5 also has a new sensor. I don't see why the R5 would lack any optimizations the R6 is getting.
> 
> ...


Hm, you are correct, I justed wanted to name the Canon 6D which was always named as a good high iso performer - but in this test its not so much better than the canon 5D line...

I think the a7s vs a7r could be a good exmaple. Though its a truely big gap in resolution here. If we downsample the a7r images to 12mpixel, its likely to look very similar.





Studio shot comparison: Digital Photography Review


Expert news, reviews and videos of the latest digital cameras, lenses, accessories, and phones. Get answers to your questions in our photography forums.




www.dpreview.com


----------



## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

peters said:


> But my Sony A7R IV with 60mpixel is truely A LOT better for product photography in the studio. The level of detail is simply impressive (given good light and sharp lenses). It allows for way cleaner cutouts and way better retouching. And the possibilites that comes with the room to crop is also very handy for event-photography.
> 45mpixel is a small step back for me, but I agree that its indeed not important in the real world.
> 
> Storage and better PC is no problem though. We use dropbox business with unlimited backup storage. Also big NAS systems with enough space.
> Since we used the 1DX II (with ludacrous big files) and now the Lumix S1H (also very big files in 6k) for a lot of video productions, we are totaly used to a lot of massive foldes. Photography is (compared to that) not even a dent in our storage count :-D


I have marked the important thing in bold letters.
Yes, some photographers do benefit from the R5, those probably don't have a problem affording it and they already have the storage system to support it.
But most people probably don't actually need it, are going to be do just as well with the R6. (in the same way most people will do just fine with an A7III over an A7RIV, no question which camera is the more popular one)

I thought we are taking about different things, video is completely different to stills but I feel the same about 8K video.
4K is more than enough, and probably overkill for most things, 1080p should be fine for many, as long as it is as clean as possible, like a Canon C100, and lower-res clean RAW video looks better than higher-res compressed video, but they only offer that in video cameras for now.



peters said:


> I think the a7s vs a7r could be a good exmaple. Though its a truely big gap in resolution here. If we downsample the a7r images to 12mpixel, its likely to look very similar.







If the ISO is high enough, the A7R will smear more compared to the A7S


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## navastronia (Jun 18, 2020)

padam said:


> There is more to it than just graph numbers and point scores.
> Looking at actual test images, from ISO 6400 upwards, the 1DX III starts to retain better colour and detail compared to the 5D IV.
> I expect the R5 to improve, but when pushing the ISO beyond 10000 (which most people don't actually do), the R6 might still be a bit better.



Do you have any comparison images you could share? I'm interested in your idea, here.


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## Xavitxaung (Jun 18, 2020)

The real question it is... The EOS R6 is it going to become a real rival to the Sony A7III?


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## navastronia (Jun 18, 2020)

Joules said:


> If you aren't sure if MP count has a significant impact on low light capability (noise), just see for yourself:
> 
> http://[URL]https://www.dpreview.co...1&x=0.21908346372337578&y=0.23348189356344348[/URL]
> 
> Do the images on the right (lower resolution) look better to you then the ones one the left (higher resolution)?



To me, the 5D mk. IV and 1DX mk. II look almost the same at 12800, which is more to my point (above).


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## navastronia (Jun 18, 2020)

ryebread said:


> will the R6 have 1/8000?



That's a great question. I could see it going either way.


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## Joules (Jun 18, 2020)

padam said:


> If the ISO is high enough, the A7R will smear more compared to the A7S


I am not at all disagreeing with your point that high MP aren't necessary for many use cases.

But these new Canons are unlike anything we've seen before. The R5 throughput is just insane. As long as no pixels are left out during read out, no light should be lost. And if they are based on the same amount of light, images from sensors of the same generation should have the same amount of noise. Both the R6 and R5 appear to have a mode where they read the entire sensor (8K for the R5, oversampled 5K for the R6), the same argument I made for stills should apply. Downsample both to the same resolution / magnification, and the quality should be comparable. Although I'm not sure how temporal noise is affected by resolution. It probably is still beneficial to have a higher resolution for reducing it?


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Do you have any comparison images you could share? I'm interested in your idea, here.


For Canon product reviews I look at popco.net (with Google translate), they are very detailed with plenty of examples, I have taken the test images from there and looked at them and concluded that the 1DX III is indeed better at high ISO.
Looking at dpreview samples, they seem to be more equal, so not sure what's going on there. But here is another guy who have shot with a 5D IV for ages, and claims the 1DX II outperforms it for ISO:








Canon 1D X Mark II - A High ISO King!


Regular readers will know that these days my camera of choice is the Canon 5D Mark IV because I love its versatility. It's not as fast as the 1-Series




dancarrphotography.com




*'I would guess that the high ISO performance is roughly 2/3 of a stop, to one full stop better than what I have seen from my 5D Mark IV in the past few years of use.'*


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## rom (Jun 18, 2020)

I will stick with my R. I never shoot movie, so don’t care much for these new cameras.
Happy that Canon didn’t do a replacement for the R  It’s perfect in it’s own way.


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## criscokkat (Jun 18, 2020)

Everyone's predicting a much higher price for this compared to the 6D Mk II, and I don't think that will be the case. The leaked R5 pricing shows everyone's thoughts on that being significantly more than the 5dMk4 didn't pan out, and I think people are off on this one too.

I think they will be aggressive. I suspect 2499 is the high end kit, with the 24-105mm f4. The 24-240 at 2199 and the 24-105 f4-71 at 1899. (body only at 1699, so the low end kit is half price for lens).

The reason I think they will keep it aggressive: This entices people to buy into a new ecosystem of lenses. The prices above are roughly 100 more than the 6d MKII's initial MSRP. The R5 pricing looks to be the same as the 5d MkIV. People are desperate for a sony like mirrorless solution that is combined with Canon color and Canon Lenses. I suspect that once the initial rush is over with, the street price will drop another 100-200 to be competitive, because Canon wants to get these cameras in as many hands as possible. The market that buys the r5 and r6 are the same people who drive most of their lens sales. Very few of these people already have RF lenses, so they will be buying new lenses at an increased clip compared to people who buy a new d5 body just to put old lenses on. The RP and R will drop in price (again) as well. The RP in particular will be in the same spot that the rebel series used to be. I expect the rp + 24-240 to be in a lot of big box stores this Christmas for 1199 or so. They can continue cranking out the sensor for that at a much higher profit, as the initial run has already paid for the development. People have seen Apple make a lot of money just keeping old production lines going for cheaper price points. Other companies are seeing the advantages of this now too.


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## Joules (Jun 18, 2020)

padam said:


> I have taken the test images from there and looked at them and concluded that the 1DX III is indeed better at high ISO.
> Looking at dpreview samples, they seem to be more equal, so not sure what's going on there.


What is crucial for these comparisons is that they are made at the same magnification. So, the images must have identical framing, or in other words, must be Downsampled to the same resolution.

If one compares images at 1:1, a higher resolution image will be magnified further. And yes, that does reveal more noise. But it is an apples to oranges comparison. If you magnify a lower res image the same amount, it will start to look mushy.

At 1:1, a lower resolution image shows less noise, but also less detail. If magnified so that images show the same amount of detail, the shot noise is identical. And if the sensor tech is identical, so is the read noise. So they will look the same for practical purposes.


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

Joules said:


> What is crucial for these comparisons is that they are made at the same magnification. So, the images must have identical framing, or in other words, must be Downsampled to the same resolution.
> 
> If one compares images at 1:1, a higher resolution image will be magnified further. And yes, that does reveal more noise. But it is an apples to oranges comparison. If you magnify a lower res image the same amount, it will start to look mushy.
> 
> At 1:1, a lower resolution image shows less noise, but also less detail. If magnified so that images show the same amount of detail, the shot noise is identical. And if the sensor tech is identical, so is the read noise. So they will look the same for practical purposes.


I have looked at EOS R images at very high ISO values and fine details just get smeared away.
It does not matter what magnification you are looking at, they are not there anymore, while they are still showing up on the lower-resolution, but less noisy 1DX III image.
Same with the colour information, once it starts loosing colour or it starts to heavily shift towards one direction, there is no way to get it back.
People tend to overlook these things and just assume downsampling equals everything. These graph tests are quite misleading in that way.
Yes, it does make it equal up to a certain ISO value, but beyond that, probably not. Ymmv.

Again, I never claimed that the R6 is going to be much better than the R5, I wrote it might be a hair better.
I just claimed that the breaking point with the ISO might be reached a little higher.


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

criscokkat said:


> Everyone's predicting a much higher price for this compared to the 6D Mk II, and I don't think that will be the case. The leaked R5 pricing shows everyone's thoughts on that being significantly more than the 5dMk4 didn't pan out, and I think people are off on this one too.


2500$ compared to 2000$ with the 6D Mark II is really not much of an increase at all, if we compare the massive jump in features.
It will cost much more with the L kit lens, but there is the cheapo RF 24-105 f/7.1 IS STM which shouldn't cost much extra (maybe 200$).
The numbers you are expecting (dreaming) are way off.


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## ryebread (Jun 18, 2020)

navastronia said:


> That's a great question. I could see it going either way.



the R6 should have 1/8000, 
but the 6D/II does not
and they haven't said anything yet. that is scaring me.

the A7iii and the EosR does have 1/8000 - so I'm guessing the R6 will have it.
otherwise, it's crippled IMO


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## Joules (Jun 18, 2020)

padam said:


> I have looked at EOS R images at very high ISO values and fine details just get smeared away.
> It does not matter what magnification you are looking at, they are not there anymore, while they are still showing up on the lower-resolution, but less noisy 1DX III image.
> [...]
> People tend to overlook these things and just assume downsampling equals everything. These graph tests are quite misleading in that way.


I wasn't talking about any measurements. I linked to some pictures. I don't have access to cameras with different resolutions but the same sensor tech. If you do, and your experience with them contradicts the results from the DPR Studio tool, could you please share them?

I can see how color deteriates with very low light. Especially in the R, since it is essentially continuously being read and probably generating a good bit of heat in the sensor and hence dark current when used in low light (longer exposure time). But I have a hard time believing the detail part is due to the sensor, rather than the method of comparison. Any demonstration of what you are saying (ideally in Form of pictures, as you said) would be highly appreciated.


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## Joules (Jun 18, 2020)

ryebread said:


> the R6 should have 1/8000,
> but the 6D/II does not
> and they haven't said anything yet. that is scaring me.
> 
> ...


Another argument that might point to it having it:

The R5 and R6 have the same mechanical shutter rate (12 FPS). So they likely have the same shutter. So, if the R5 has 1/8000 and the R6 doesn't use a lower quality version of that shutter, it should have it.


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## Stuart (Jun 18, 2020)

Is that AF in video mode with touch screen AF area selection?

Also what's High ISO in practice likely to be here ?


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## BakaBokeh (Jun 18, 2020)

This camera is pretty amazing. If we had zero information on the R5 and it just never existed. The R6 and it's specs are mindblowing by themselves. This is the Camera I wanted when Canon came out with the EOS R. Dual Card slots? IBIS? 4K60p? HD120? Hell yes! Hopefully it has no crop and working DPAF in all shooting modes like the R5.

I've grown to love and become very attached to the EOS R in the past half year that I've owned it. I fully intend to buy an R5 and was going to keep the R as a 2nd body. Now, I am very likely going to sell the EOS R and replace it with an R6.


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## bergstrom (Jun 18, 2020)

20MP is lame though.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 18, 2020)

peters said:


> True, there is indeed no difference. *But an optimized sensor with lower megapixel count CAN be noteable better.*
> And these examples are cameras with a rather medium difference in megapixel. The 20mpixel compared to 45mpixel is a bigger gap.
> Also the R6 sensor may be build for better high iso performance. Just like the 6D was. So I guess that its liekely that the R6 will perform notable better.



Can you provide an actual real world same generation sensor support of that? I've never seen any.


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## PhotoRN86 (Jun 18, 2020)

DBounce said:


> This sounds like the camera that a Sony A7S3 would have to compete with. Both 4K high sensitivity.


woooow crazy great site thanks!


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## privatebydesign (Jun 18, 2020)

bergstrom said:


> 20MP is lame though.


Tell that to 1DS III, 1DX, 1DX II, 1DX III, D5, D6, A9, and A9 II users.


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## Joules (Jun 18, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Tell that to 1DS III, 1DX, 1DX II, 1DX III, D5, D6, A9, and A9 II users.


Or the huge number of people who used a Canon with the 18 MP sensor... found in such lame cameras as the original 7D. Oh yeah, the 7D II is 20 MP as well. And noby liked that camera . That's why Canon won't refresh it  (RIP)


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## peters (Jun 18, 2020)

padam said:


> I thought we are taking about different things, video is completely different to stills but I feel the same about 8K video.
> 4K is more than enough, and probably overkill for most things, 1080p should be fine for many, as long as it is as clean as possible, like a Canon C100, and lower-res clean RAW video looks better than higher-res compressed video, but they only offer that in video cameras for now.


I generaly agree, since even most hollywood productions are mostly mastered in 1080p and most cinemas are still only 2k. So 1080p is certainly enough, if its a good 1080p.
In the R5 I think the 4k 120fps mode is even more important than the 8k RAW mode. I think thats realy a big deal for commercial work, event dokus, weddings etc. 
But also the 8k RAW can have its place. While its certainly only usable for very well planned and very short shots (given the crazy data rate that this resolution produces in RAW), I think it can be great. We do some architecture video-productions where an even cleaner image with better white-balance control and higher dynmic range is certainly welcome. Also I think it could be great for VFX heavy work, greenscreen, tracking etc. This are things that usualy benefit greatly from higher bitdepth and higher resolved images. This is usualy done with very big, heavy and pricey cinema cameras - but suddenly its open to users with a way cheaper camera. It can bring down total cost of production by quite a lot, since it can be operated basicaly by one person  
I am excited to work with 8k RAW - but I am also a bit afraid of the amount of data and render speed. A proxy workflow is certainly the way to go :-D


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## peters (Jun 18, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Tell that to 1DS III, 1DX, 1DX II, 1DX III, D5, D6, A9, and A9 II users.


Its allways the same discussion. 20mp have its place. But as you noted, these are only the high end sports cameras (super specialized tools) where super fast turnaround and upload times are crucial. For more general tools (which are used for imagephotos, fashion, products, weddings) a higher megapixel count is certainly an advantage in many many situations. Though certainly not the most important thing.


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## basketballfreak6 (Jun 18, 2020)

I am probably part of the minority in today's market but argh give me the R5 without the high end video specs and sell it for $1k cheaper and I am snapping one up.

If the R6 had higher res and joystick like the R5 I'd probably be willing to overlook the lack of top lcd and pick it up over the R5.


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## peters (Jun 18, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Can you provide an actual real world same generation sensor support of that? I've never seen any.


I think sony a7s and a7r could be an example. Especialy in video mode the a7s was very astonishing when it comes to high ISO


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## jam05 (Jun 18, 2020)

spomeniks said:


> This camera is gonna sell like crazy if those specs play out - oversampled, 10 bit 5k video is what most of us would love to see, along with the AF system and those crazy photo frame rates. Not to mention the fact that many people will probably prefer dual SD over CFexpress/SD like in the R5. The control dial on top in place of top down LCD is concerning, though.


with SD express on the horizon I def would not chose an express bus over an SD bus. The mere fact that its an express bus system and the SD slot eventually would hold an SD express card.


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## mangobutter (Jun 18, 2020)

20MP is not lame. It's absolutely PREMIUM. Hell, 16MP would be more premium than 20MP. or even 12. I want every ounce of low light advantage I can get. Every. ounce. Glad to see Canon not going with the megapixel war with that camera. We need a low light war.


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

peters said:


> I am excited to work with 8k RAW - but I am also a bit afraid of the amount of data and render speed. A proxy workflow is certainly the way to go :-D


But the fact that there is no slow motion RAW makes it more limiting than a 1DX III or C200 (but it is probably a very powerful second camera)
I am just excited to have a highly capable stills camera with a FF sensor, that probably has great IBIS, great grip, great EVF, great low-light, easy to use AF, good built-in picture profiles or not so difficult Log profile, good internal codecs, while not having a crop factor or lacking in frame rates.
And now we suddenly have two cameras that are able to offer that.
It's just simply what many people have been waiting for since the 5D Mark II, so what could be the catch...?


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## mangobutter (Jun 18, 2020)

Also... since 2012 6D launch.. i rocked the 6D's 20 megapixels super hard with stunning images. 20MP is extreme overkill.


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## jam05 (Jun 18, 2020)

spomeniks said:


> This camera is gonna sell like crazy if those specs play out - oversampled, 10 bit 5k video is what most of us would love to see, along with the AF system and those crazy photo frame rates. Not to mention the fact that many people will probably prefer dual SD over CFexpress/SD like in the R5. The control dial on top in place of top down LCD is concerning, though.


not going an SD bus over express bus. Express bus technology any day. SD cards have very slow write times and is where the bottleneck starts.


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## peters (Jun 18, 2020)

padam said:


> But the fact that there is no slow motion RAW makes it more limiting than a 1DX III or C200 (but it is probably a very powerful second camera)
> I am just excited to have a highly capable stills camera with a FF sensor, that probably has great IBIS, great EVF, great low-light, easy to use AF, good built-in picture profiles or not so difficult Log profile, good internal codecs, while not having a crop factor or lacking in frame rates.
> And now we suddenly have two cameras that are able to offer that.
> It's just simply what many people have been waiting for since the 5D Mark II, so what could be the catch...?


I also think that the R5 sounds INCREDIBLE perfect. The specs we know so far are nothing but incredible. And the overall package is also incredible great.
The only big and aweful problem I can think of right now is a heavy rolling shutter. Like on the 5D IV or even worse... this could be close to a dealbreaker... the rolling shutter is also the biggest problem of the 5D IV video mode (along many others). Its even worse than the insane crop factor it had...
But given the obviously very fast and powerfull sensor/CPU, and the reasonable imrpovement the 1DX III showed here, I think its reasonable to expect a way better rolling shutter in the R5 (at least in 4k 60) than the 5D IV had.


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## navastronia (Jun 18, 2020)

peters said:


> I also think that the R5 sounds INCREDIBLE perfect. The specs we know so far are nothing but incredible. And the overall package is also incredible great.
> The only big and aweful problem I can think of right now is a heavy rolling shutter. Like on the 5D IV or even worse... this could be close to a dealbreaker... the rolling shutter is also the biggest problem of the 5D IV video mode (along many others). Its even worse than the insane crop factor it had...
> But given the obviously very fast and powerfull sensor/CPU, and the reasonable imrpovement the 1DX III showed here, I think its reasonable to expect a way better rolling shutter in the R5 (at least in 4k 60) than the 5D IV had.



If the 5R has bad rolling shutter, it will be heartbreaking. If a future 1R has bad rolling shutter, it will be tragic. If the 6R has bad rolling shutter, it will be hilarious, in the most schadenfreude type of way


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

peters said:


> The only big and aweful problem I can think of right now is a heavy rolling shutter. Like on the 5D IV or even worse... this could be close to a dealbreaker... the rolling shutter is also the biggest problem of the 5D IV video mode (along many others). Its even worse than the insane crop factor it had...
> But given the obviously very fast and powerfull sensor/CPU, and the reasonable imrpovement the 1DX III showed here, I think its reasonable to expect a way better rolling shutter in the R5 (at least in 4k 60) than the 5D IV had.


When shooting in 4k24p FF mode, the 1DX III rolling shutter is actually worse than the 5D IV, but fine in any other mode.
FF 4k50p (when the AF get disabled) it gets twice as fast, weirdly.
So I guess it could be bad in a few modes, but fine with the rest.


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## Go Wild (Jun 18, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Sooo....who still thinks this is a 6DII entry level replacement body? No way with a 20MP sensor, dual card slots, and now 5K oversampled video is this a 6D replacement. The RP mark II will be the 6D replacement.
> 
> I still want to know if it will have a recording limit, will record video to both card slots at the same time, and if they will make an XLR module for it...other than that this body is exactly what I predicted it to be; a GH5, GH5s, S1, and maybe even an S1H killer for an incredible price. I don't even bother to mention the Sony A7S because IMO even the GH5 already beats that one.
> 
> ...



I guess we were right about the R6 being a more video-centric camera! 

Canon is going really strong! This 2 cameras are going to be winners!! Really happy!

This two cameras complement each other! R5 to resolution and making 4k at higher FPS and R6 for low light and for about almost everything that a video creator needs! Finally Zebras!! Just hope the R5 have it too....

This new info adds a bit more of interest on the 9th of July announcement! (like we needed it....!!  )


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## herein2020 (Jun 18, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> I guess we were right about the R6 being a more video-centric camera!
> 
> Canon is going really strong! This 2 cameras are going to be winners!! Really happy!
> 
> ...



I'm greedy...can I get a waveform monitor? I don't use zebras as much as I use the WFM, WFM is way more useful but usually so small you need an external monitor to see it. 

Canon has definitely final awoken and created two legendary cameras. It just really NEEDS to record video to both card slots.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 18, 2020)

peters said:


> I think sony a7s and a7r could be an example. Especialy in video mode the a7s was very astonishing when it comes to high ISO


Yes you might think that, but when you actually look it isn't true when image size is normalized, and don't forget neither of these have had NR applied, optimize them both and there is nothing at all in it. Once you apply a touch more color noise reduction to the a7R than the a7S and lose some of that additional detail it's a wash.

It certainly isn't the example I hoped to see and doesn't illustrate the_ "But an optimized sensor with lower megapixel count CAN be noteable better."_ mindset so many people have.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 18, 2020)

peters said:


> Its allways the same discussion. 20mp have its place. But as you noted, these are only the high end sports cameras (super specialized tools) where super fast turnaround and upload times are crucial. For more general tools (which are used for imagephotos, fashion, products, weddings) a higher megapixel count is certainly an advantage in many many situations. Though certainly not the most important thing.


I'd venture 20mp has every bit as much of a place in the amateur arena as the pro arena, how many amateurs regularly _need _more than 20mp? As always there are exceptions and specific use cases but the vast majority of people shoot for screen and email and maybe a modest sized print, all easily handled by 20mp.


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## Fast351 (Jun 18, 2020)

Maximilian said:


> Since I own a EOS 200D/SL2 that has that age, age, age, age old nine digit diamond AF I believe that Canon can do everything to downsize a camera as long as they think it sells.
> BTW I only got the 200D as a replacement with some delta money for my 100D that was ruined by Canon service. I wouldn't have bought it to replace my 100D/SL1.
> But it was a fair deal of my Canon service, so I said "yes!".



SL1 is my favorite walkaround camera. 90% of my 70D in performance in the package of a point and shoot. With the 18-300 I have on there it is quite possibly my favorite walkaround.

I am PUMPED for the R6 tho. The EVF and AF was my primary concern (don't care about video at all) and that looks like it's the same as the R5. Although I fear that may drive the price to where I need to think about spending the extra grand for more resolution... 3 weeks......


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## herein2020 (Jun 19, 2020)

padam said:


> Resolution is probably the most overrated feature ever *for most people*.
> 20MP is plenty for stills, really.
> People can still use a 5D Mark II for landscapes in 2020 and beyond, and create award-winning large prints from it.
> 
> ...



I agree, the only time I am glad I have 30MP is when I run out of focal length and need to crop in quite a bit which is not often. For 90% of the time I wish my 5DIV was around 20MP due to file sizes and processing times.


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## DBounce (Jun 19, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> This camera is pretty amazing. If we had zero information on the R5 and it just never existed. The R6 and it's specs are mindblowing by themselves. This is the Camera I wanted when Canon came out with the EOS R. Dual Card slots? IBIS? 4K60p? HD120? Hell yes! Hopefully it has no crop and working DPAF in all shooting modes like the R5.
> 
> I've grown to love and become very attached to the EOS R in the past half year that I've owned it. I fully intend to buy an R5 and was going to keep the R as a 2nd body. Now, I am very likely going to sell the EOS R and replace it with an R6.


I gave away my R and will replace it with the R5.


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## davidhfe (Jun 19, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> Well, a Bayer sensor inherently has less chroma than luma resolution (half green, quarter red and blue). So RAW footage is unlikely to have much more chroma information than 4:2:2 compressed YCbCr video.



I thought about that, but realized I had zero idea about when de-bayering happens. Is the image in a non-raw context, debayered and then chroma subsampled? Or is there a subsampling scheme that takes into account the bayer filter? Seems like you'd have a double compression issue otherwise.

Back in the day when 3 chip CCDs were common I'd assume it was a non issue, but with most cinema cameras now just being a single sensor I'd be surprised if it hasn't been worked out.


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## Go Wild (Jun 19, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I'm greedy...can I get a waveform monitor? I don't use zebras as much as I use the WFM, WFM is way more useful but usually so small you need an external monitor to see it.
> 
> Canon has definitely final awoken and created two legendary cameras. It just really NEEDS to record video to both card slots.



I don´t think we´re gonna have waveforms...Could be great, but don´t think so. Zebras are already a big help! I am now used to use an external recorder so, I get the waveform from there. If in a hurry situation, or working without external recording, Zebras will make a big help! 

I don´t know if it will record to both cards simultaneously....maybe that´s one of the features Canon will want to keep only in cinema line....

Now I also want to trade my EOS R for the EOS R6...I believe having EOS R5 and R6 will make a huge combo!! Ohh boy....It´s going to be one of those years....Good bye bank account!!!


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## Tangent (Jun 19, 2020)

GAS attack for the R6, yes. But my voice of reason says to stick with the RP and wait a while. This time I'll listen.


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## canonnews (Jun 19, 2020)

mangobutter said:


> 20MP is not lame. It's absolutely PREMIUM. Hell, 16MP would be more premium than 20MP. or even 12. I want every ounce of low light advantage I can get. Every. ounce. Glad to see Canon not going with the megapixel war with that camera. We need a low light war.


 there could be a low light benefit to ISO with video, but it's not really there with stills. that's been dead for a while now.


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## herein2020 (Jun 19, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> I don´t think we´re gonna have waveforms...Could be great, but don´t think so. Zebras are already a big help! I am now used to use an external recorder so, I get the waveform from there. If in a hurry situation, or working without external recording, Zebras will make a big help!
> 
> I don´t know if it will record to both cards simultaneously....maybe that´s one of the features Canon will want to keep only in cinema line....
> 
> Now I also want to trade my EOS R for the EOS R6...I believe having EOS R5 and R6 will make a huge combo!! Ohh boy....It´s going to be one of those years....Good bye bank account!!!



They will be the perfect combo for both video and photography, dual camera angles for video, great gimbal cameras, dual cameras for events such as weddings, conferences; nothing short of incredible.

I think Canon may include the dual card slot writing, at least for the R6 since both slots are the same. The GH5, GH5s, S1, S1H and probably the Sonys as well all do it; I don't even understand the point of two card slots if you can't use both at the same time.

The Cinema line still has plenty to differentiate itself, especially with the C300III on the way, I think  hope Canon will come to their senses.


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## Darrell Cadieux (Jun 19, 2020)

Tsun said:


> I think unless Canon has some surprise for us R6 @$2500 won't be much of a competition in photography to Sony a7 III/a7R III, due to higher price, lower pixel count and worse lens selection - unless R6 has something special in terms of image quality, looks like Sony will be the clear choice.


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## herein2020 (Jun 19, 2020)

Darrell Cadieux said:


>



My reaction as well....Sony is no longer even on the same planet as Canon. They had a good run, but I think its time for them to focus on their Playstations, TVs, and BluRay players and leave cameras to Canon.


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## canonnews (Jun 19, 2020)

peters said:


> I also think that the R5 sounds INCREDIBLE perfect. The specs we know so far are nothing but incredible. And the overall package is also incredible great.
> The only big and aweful problem I can think of right now is a heavy rolling shutter. Like on the 5D IV or even worse... this could be close to a dealbreaker.



it's really not that bad, step away from the cliff.

the A7R IV is around 1/30th of a second, the A7 III is around 1/15 - 1/28th of a second.

however, the dude at EOSHD is losing his mind at 1/32 of a second on the 1DX Mark III. Of course, because it's canon. Never mind his current love affair with the GFX 100 which has a worse rolling shutter.

Sure it's no A9 but I don't think Canon ever claimed it was.


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## canonnews (Jun 19, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> This two cameras complement each other! R5 to resolution and making 4k at higher FPS and R6 for low light and for about almost everything that a video creator needs! Finally Zebras!! Just hope the R5 have it too.


R5 has zebras, that was leaked a while ago when someone accidentally showed the menus of the R5.


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## canonnews (Jun 19, 2020)

Tsun said:


> I think unless Canon has some surprise for us R6 @$2500 won't be much of a competition in photography to Sony a7 III/a7R III, due to higher price, lower pixel count and worse lens selection - unless R6 has something special in terms of image quality, looks like Sony will be the clear choice.


Curious .. do you get paid by Sony per message or on a time basis?


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## dwarven (Jun 19, 2020)

How about the shutter? Does it close when you turn the camera off?



bergstrom said:


> 20MP is lame though.



*laughs in 1DX III*


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## usern4cr (Jun 19, 2020)

Thanks Craig, for posting this. I was surprised to see that the R6 EVF has 5 MP as does the R5. That's truly great new for both of them. From the picture and the specs, it almost looks like these are mostly the same camera, which gets the production cost down for both cameras. The R6 difference is a lower res sensor and matching slower (but sufficient) throughput and less expensive build quality, but it still has truly excellent value in it's own right. That allows Canon to intentionally sell the R6 much cheaper and be a major (and only) competitor to the Sony A7... & A7s... line of bodies & lenses. If they sell the R6 kit cheap enough then they can get a surge of new people into their system who might also buy additional lenses. This is a very good move by Canon!


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## navastronia (Jun 19, 2020)

canonnews said:


> there could be a low light benefit to ISO with video, but it's not really there with stills. that's been dead for a while now.



What's the difference?


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jun 19, 2020)

I kind of overlooked the R6 but it's starting to take form as a very interesting release. It appears to hit most of the metrics I'm looking for with video and I don't mind 20MP's for stills as long as I can use the entire sensor without much of a crop. That can be a challenge on the 1DX2 shooting action with long primes but shouldn't be a problem for general photography. If Canon throws in some sort of IBIS based super-sampled landcape mode for the ocassional HQ landscape this could be a really nice travel body. Some of those existing RF lenses would have to go on a diet before I'd let them into my travel bag but it sounds like some lighter lenses are on the way. I could see the price on this one softening up a bit down the road. Regardless of how much of a difference it actually makes, 20Mp's is going to put off a significant number of buyers.


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## Joel C (Jun 19, 2020)

Can I just pre order this already?! Sheesh!


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## Danglin52 (Jun 19, 2020)

padam said:


> That one is already included, probably in an even better version than before...
> It just means that it won't loose the subject if the head is turned away, goes right back to eye-tracking if it detects it again.


It also said same AF as the R5 and I believe the development announcement for the R5 included Eye detect.


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## Danglin52 (Jun 19, 2020)

padam said:


> It is aimed at the future A7IV (or a bit towards the A7SIII as well).
> It has much better video specs than the A7III with 10bit 4k60p, swivel screen, probably better IBIS, more advanced AF, way better EVF and screen, both card slots are UHS-II, etc.
> A7RIII is a cheap option to get 42MP, but severly lacking in other aspects, slower frame-rate, not as good AF, no full touchscreen, etc. I mean it is a much older camera of course, so it should be lagging behind.
> 
> ...



AND, most (if not all) current generation CANON EF lenses adapt flawlessly to the R bodies. Any concern over adapting EF lenses to the R is unnecessary.


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## padam (Jun 19, 2020)

I wonder, if it is really a new sensor, does that mean that 4k30p does record in FF mode but 4k60p would be an APS-H crop.
That would make it different to both 1DX II and 1DX III.


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## Danglin52 (Jun 19, 2020)

If all the planets align, 90% of the speculation is true, and the IQ of the new systems is as expected, my EOS EF gear will go up for sale. Below is my pre-order list with the objective of fine tuning based on evaluating reviews prior to shipment. I am a wildlife photographer and my assumption is that the R5 + RF 100-500 f4-f7.1 will be my primary combo for daytime and best part of golden hour. The R6 + RF 800mm f11 will be the choice for bright daylight when I need more reach during cloudy days / the worst part of golden hour - assuming R6 performs on high ISO. I had written off the R6 & RF 800 f11 until reading the spec and anticipated low light performance. The sale of my 1dx II & EF gear (just sold my 200-400, 5dIV plus other stuff sold last year) should fund the switch. I am not a pro and don't need the rugged construction for the 1dx II, jus the AF & low light performance which should be matched or exceeded by the R's. My current gear provides far more capability than my skills can exceed, but I am an old guy and want new toys before I have to find a less strenuous subject (wildlife).

R5 Primary for all around shooting including wildlife
R6 Backup & extremely low light if the 20mp performs as expected.
RF 24-105 f4 L IS or RF 24-70 f2.8 L IS (I like the 24-105 idea and it is getting great review)
RF 100-500 f4-f7.1 L IS
RF 800 f11 IS - Not totally sold on f11, but will pre-order and cancel / return if not satisfied.
RF 1.4x TC depending on compatibility/performance with the the 100-500, not planning to use on the 800 f11. 
EF to R adaptor which will stay on the EF 70-200 f4 L IS II (Kepping this lens, I love the weight/size/IQ)
R5 Grip (if available)
3 LP-E6NH batteries
4 / 128gb CFexpress cards (I already have SD UHS II cards) .
This is going to be a hefty bill, but it should be covered by the "sunk" cost recovered by selling my EF gear.

In for a penny, in for a pound!


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## CDR (Jun 19, 2020)

Well that's me pretty much me done! I was one of those who wished there was an R5 version with less video capabilities to bring the price down of the R5 given our weak local currency. If these specs are correct I will certainly be in for the R6 as very little crippling it seems (so far at least). I have used the R for a while and whilst it is truly capable of great images it was never meant to be a wildlife camera especially with the EVF refresh rates / FPS limitations. But this whoa, with the same AF and EVF - I am in and may even be able to look at the 100-500 (well in a while) ...


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## padam (Jun 19, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> RF 100-500 f4-f7.1 L IS
> RF 800 f11 IS - Not totally sold on f11, but will pre-order and cancel / return if not satisfied.
> RF 1.4x TC depending on compatibility/performance with the the 100-500, not planning to use on the 800 f11.


Why do you need all three items? I mean, the prime should be sharper and lighter, but two lenses mean double the cost and the teleconverter should be an expensive add-on expensive as well.


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## Jasonmc89 (Jun 19, 2020)

Really interested to find out just how well this performs in low light. Being interested rainforest wildlife, I’ve had to bin many shots over the years because the iso was just too high. This combined with software such as topaz denoise AI should be pretty amazing.


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## kocmonabt (Jun 19, 2020)

padam said:


> Not really, it is a stills camera with advanced video features.
> The RF lenses are a lot bigger than EF-M lenses, and the sensor consumes more power, so it makes perfect sense to have different ergonomics with a bigger battery.
> The RP is as close as you can get to an M body with a FF sensor anyway.


True. I disagree with the side swiveling display.


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## padam (Jun 19, 2020)

kocmonabt said:


> True. I disagree with the side swiveling display.


You can call it a brand characteristic, each has its ups and downs. For instance, I realised that the swivel screen works great for portrait orientation at a lower angle for shooting kids. I also like it to support my left hand a little for shooting video.
They have used it in interchangeable lens cameras for a decade now, starting with 60D in 2010, and the majority of people liked it and went with it going forward.
Nowadays, they probably also use their smartphones to take selfies or videos, so why would they change it now and take away that option.

For the minority, they might still make cameras like the EOS M5 or M6 with the tilt screen, but those will be the niche ones and more people will prefer cameras like the M50, which is the big seller.


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## Danglin52 (Jun 19, 2020)

padam said:


> Why do you need all three items? I mean, the prime should be sharper and lighter, but two lenses mean double the cost and the teleconverter should be an expensive add-on expensive as well.


This list is just a pre-order list that I will fine tune based on reviews during the period of pre-order to ship. It is easier to get on the list up front rather than see a positive review and want to change your pre-order. I am hoping to have a two week trip to GTNP/YNP in late September/early October and would like to have the gear available for the trip. In wildlife photography you shoot in a wide variety of situations, environment and lighting that push the gear requirement. If possible, I will always choose a zoom combination over primes for the versatility IF I can get the IQ, low light performance & reach required for the shot. I shoot the 200-400 w/1.4 integrated TC (f5.6 @560mm) when using a tripod and the 100-400 II + 1.4x TC when I need something handheld. Because the 100-400 is a f5.6 a and f8 with the TC it is slow but workable for handheld shooting in dim conditions. Since the 100-500 is F7.1 + 1.4x tC will be f10, the 800mm becomes a reasonable option @ f11. I don't see any situations other than high noon on a bright sunny day when I would even consider using the 800mm + 1.4x. This is especially true when you consider the lack of separation you will have based on DOF @f16. My bet is that my choice will be the 100-500 + 1.4x TC over the 800mm, but I won't know until I see the reviews OR have it in my has to test. If I don't like it, I will return to the vendor within the return policy.

I wouldn't place any bets on a non-L prime being shaper than an L zoom until I saw the tests, UNLESS it is something like the EF 400mm f4 DO IS II @ $6k plus. You are probably correct on lighter weight based on the experience with the 400 DO. In addition, I might eliminate the TC but the 100-500 is a much more versatile / usable lens than the 800mm. If I had to choose only 1 lens of the 2, it would be the 100-500 + 1.4x TC unless I was a full time birder. There is also the issue of the [email protected] f11 for birders shooting in forest conditions. I did't do all of the math, but I would only need to crop the R5 + 100-500mm image 18-20% to equal the FOV of the 800mm. With 40-45 mp, that would still leave a 30mp file.


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## Simon Younglof (Jun 19, 2020)

Very excited by the R6 specs now, but until someone with inside information can explain to me how that camera will suffer from less rolling shutter in 4K than the dreadful one on display with the 1dxiii, color me pessimistically intrigued.


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## padam (Jun 19, 2020)

Simon Younglof said:


> Very excited by the R6 specs now, but until someone with inside information can explain to me how that camera will suffer from less rolling shutter in 4K than the dreadful one on display with the 1dxiii, color me pessimistically intrigued.


It probably won't in FF mode, that's not great, but the other modes should be fine.
With the IBIS, it probably won't be very noticeable for most things in practise.
If it is, switch to crop mode, simple as that.
I don't think cropping in is such a huge deal, it can be considered better for shooting in Canon Log, since correcting the heavy vignetting of some lenses would result in a lot of noise, and the blur will look more even as well.


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## Chaitanya (Jun 19, 2020)

So both cameras will share battery grip and should be a good competition to all the 24MP MILC on market.


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## Tsun (Jun 19, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> My reaction as well....Sony is no longer even on the same planet as Canon. They had a good run, but I think its time for them to focus on their Playstations, TVs, and BluRay players and leave cameras to Canon.



Care to elaborate how Canon R6 beats Sony a7 III/a7R III in terms of photography? For video I agree, unless something unexpected happens it will be superior, but in terms of stills it looks like it will be the other way around. Other than personal attacks I haven't seen any arguments to the contrary, other than "probably better IBIS, more advanced AF", which are not possible to compare with just leaked specs.


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## Etienne (Jun 19, 2020)

I'm glad I held off with my jump to mirrorless into Sony A7 system, or R ( EOS-M bodies don't count). 
This is looking great, better than I expected from Canon. I hope it is real. The R6 looks like it will be best for me, although I may miss the high res photos that I'd get from the R5 once in a while, and build quality.
Build quality is the main concern from R6 specs. I hope it is weather sealed and tough


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## Etienne (Jun 19, 2020)

Simon Younglof said:


> Very excited by the R6 specs now, but until someone with inside information can explain to me how that camera will suffer from less rolling shutter in 4K than the dreadful one on display with the 1dxiii, color me pessimistically intrigued.



There is no way of knowing until the camera is tested. There may be a different sensor, a different processor. One would think that if it is intended to be a video-centric camera that they would have paid attention to rolling shutter. My first thought upon seeing the large drop in megapixels from the R5 was so that they could speed up readout for video thereby reducing rolling shutter. 
We'll just have to wait and see, but it is definitely a concern.


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 19, 2020)

Darrell Cadieux said:


>


.its been a while since we have seen a sony attempt at fake news. You can only laugh


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## Etienne (Jun 19, 2020)

Another thought on video of R5 vs R6: Digital zoom.
If Canon implements a usable digital zoom on the R5 you could get 4K at twice the focal length and 1080p at 4 times the focal length.
This would turn the RF 70-200 f/2.8L into a 70-400 in 4K, or a 70-800 in 1080p. That would be worth the extra money if the resulting video is excellent.


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## padam (Jun 19, 2020)

Tsun said:


> Care to elaborate how Canon R6 beats Sony a7 III/a7R III in terms of photography? For video I agree, unless something unexpected happens it will be superior, but in terms of stills it looks like it will be the other way around. Other than personal attacks I haven't seen any arguments to the contrary, other than "probably better IBIS, more advanced AF", which are not possible to compare with just leaked specs.


The EOS R is already superior in quite a few ways to those Sony cameras despite lacking in quite a few things.
Of course if you haven't even tried using the camera, you may not know about these things.
Now: here are these two new cameras, which aren't lacking in those other things, and as good or even better with those things that were already superior. All this in a very well integrated lens system with tons of options and full integration.
Go figure.
All these negative comments are coming from people already invested in Sony, being so sure that they've made "the right choice".
Why do they actually care, if the EOS R6 is better or not, what difference does it make for them if they are mainly looking forward to what Sony is doing and there is no doubt they are going to improve as well?
These comments make no sense.


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## LesC (Jun 19, 2020)

If the R6 ends up almost half the price of the R5 I'd be very interested. The one thing that's odd is the relatively low 20MP sensor. As I have the R & RP (26 &30MP), 20MP seems a bit of a step down? Although i never had an issue with my original 6D which was 'only' 20MP too...


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## Tsun (Jun 19, 2020)

padam said:


> The EOS R is already superior in quite a few ways to those Sony cameras despite lacking in quite a few things.
> Of course if you haven't even tried using the camera, you may not know about these things.
> Now: here are these two new cameras, which aren't lacking in those other things, and as good or even better with those things that were already superior. All this in a very well integrated lens system with tons of options and full integration.
> Go figure.
> ...



I have zero loyalty towards either brand. I'm looking to upgrade from a fixed-lens Panasonic FZ1000, and a7 III and Canon R6 are the primary contenders. Main purpose is travel photography, I don't care about videos at all.
Before Canon appeared in the picture I was planning to buy a7 III with Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 for about $3k total. It looks like similar set of R6 + Canon RF 24-70MM F2.8L lens will be about $4,7k - over a 50% premium, with not much to justify it at least in terms of specs for my use case. At below $2k with attractively priced option for 24-105 f/4 kit lens it could be worth considering, but at $2,5k body-only + more expensive lenses, it would have to crush Sony in terms of image quality.


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## Kampie (Jun 19, 2020)

Is anything known about the body size of the r6? Will it be comparable to the r5 or smaller like the rp?


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## usern4cr (Jun 19, 2020)

Tsun said:


> I have zero loyalty towards either brand. I'm looking to upgrade from a fixed-lens Panasonic FZ1000, and a7 III and Canon R6 are the primary contenders. Main purpose is travel photography, I don't care about videos at all.
> Before Canon appeared in the picture I was planning to buy a7 III with Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 for about $3k total. It looks like similar set of R6 + Canon RF 24-70MM F2.8L lens will be about $4,7k - over a 50% premium, with not much to justify it at least in terms of specs for my use case. At below $2k with attractively priced option for 24-105 f/4 kit lens it could be worth considering, but at $2,5k body-only + more expensive lenses, it would have to crush Sony in terms of image quality.


I agree with your post regarding the R6 kit needing to be very competitive on price & quality to the A7III(or IV or s) with Sigma(Tamron) 24(28)-70(75) f/2.8 lens if they want to take a big piece of that market. BUT, since you are a FZ1000 shooter you already have a fully articulating screen. If you absolutely love a fully articulating screen (as I do) then that would steer you to the Canon (as it does for me). I take lots of portraits holding the camera at waist level or so and that's a disaster on the Sony. If it doesn't matter to you, then the Sony with their overwhelming line of inexpensive native lenses may be something to seriously consider. But, I'd also look into how much dust gets stuck on the Sony sensor (and not on most other brands) in case it's still an issue. Also make sure you like the feel of it in your hand and using their menus. Better to know you're OK with that before diving into that new system.


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## padam (Jun 19, 2020)

Tsun said:


> I have zero loyalty towards either brand. I'm looking to upgrade from a fixed-lens Panasonic FZ1000, and a7 III and Canon R6 are the primary contenders. Main purpose is travel photography, I don't care about videos at all.
> Before Canon appeared in the picture I was planning to buy a7 III with Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 for about $3k total. It looks like similar set of R6 + Canon RF 24-70MM F2.8L lens will be about $4,7k - over a 50% premium, with not much to justify it at least in terms of specs for my use case. At below $2k with attractively priced option for 24-105 f/4 kit lens it could be worth considering, but at $2,5k body-only + more expensive lenses, it would have to crush Sony in terms of image quality.


Just looking at just the specs sheet and prices (especially for an aftermarket lens) is the wrong way to look at it. If you want cheaper lenses, the Sony has them covered better (but not everything is expensive with Canon, EF can be adapted). It is also smaller.
There are advantages and disadvantages to each system, one thing is just to put the camera in your hand. The Sony is smaller but the grip isn't very comfortable, it is not really made with a 24-70 2.8 in mind.
The Canon sizing (imho) is just perfect.
They also operate in a different manner.

A much older camera with loads of stock available everywhere is going to be priced lower than a brand new one with features we haven't seen in this category, there isn't going to be any surprise about that.
But there are some compromises with that, which you will find once you start using them. Or you don't, that's fine too.
Just don't think that the R6 needs to "crush" Sony in terms of image quality, it probably won't (apart from the colour which Sony users are sensitive about), because its advantages are not related specifically towards that, it is more about the AF system, the wider mount, handling, higher-end lens selection, etc, etc. it's about everything that may attribute to what can make a camera "great" overall.

For travel purposes, the EOS R or even an EOS RP should be taken into consideration, for travel they may not be that much weaker than the R6 in practise, and they cost way less money. There is also the Nikon Z6, etc. plenty of options to choose from.


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## Canfan (Jun 19, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


24MP or 32.5MP would of been nice


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## jd7 (Jun 19, 2020)

I'll be interested to see how the R6 performs in the real world (especially the EVF), but at least at the moment I just can't get excited about 20 MP. And I'm not interested in video, so the video capabilities are wasted on me.

The R5 - not to mention most of the RF lenses - is (going to be) more than I want to spend on photography gear (it's just a hobby), I'm not feeling excited about the R6, and even the R is still selling (new) for over A$2500 and often cloe to A$3000 (even before spending over A$300 if you want a control ring adapter) ... and I'm far from sold on an EVF. I'm sure the R/RF gear is good, but at this stage it's not appealing to me as something I actually might buy. I will remain interested to read the R5 and R6 real world reviews though. I guess it's always possible I'll change my mind.

PS - the largest prints I've made at 45 inch x 30 inch, and the shots were taken with a 20 MP 6D, so I know 20 MP is not bad ... but I also know I would have liked a few more MP, and I'm up to 26 MP with the 6D II so I going back to 20 MP just doesn't appeal.


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## BadHorse (Jun 19, 2020)

> AF identical to the EOS R5


I can't understand how this can be true with 20MP instead of 45MP -- does this mean not all pixels in the sensor are used for DPAF?


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## peters (Jun 19, 2020)

canonnews said:


> it's really not that bad, step away from the cliff.
> 
> the A7R IV is around 1/30th of a second, the A7 III is around 1/15 - 1/28th of a second.
> 
> ...


Hm never realy used my A7R IV for video, since its not that great when it comes to colors - the 1DX II and Lumix S1H are much nicer in this regard. 

But in the everyday work I found the rolling shutter on my 5D IV realy realy bad. The crop is one thing - I can work around that somehow (though its not that great to have a fullframe camera and only 1,84 crop in video mode). But the rolling shutter cant be fixed with another lense. And especially at higher focals lenses the rolling shutter is realy annoying. Its not only that pans look bad - the general image feels more teared when you use the camera handheld. For example if you tilt the camera upwards, the image gets teared a bit and feels not realy smooth. 

However, I am very confident that the R5 will be noteable better in this regard. "Dealbreaker" was a bit of an hyperbole from me ;-D


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## tomri (Jun 19, 2020)

20mpix is a little low for a landscape/studio camera I plan to buy in 2022. What were they thinking, grading it down from the R in the same price bracket? Canon probably understands that resolution is a hard limit that will entice people to buy again in a couple of years. Bad battery life you could deal with, but resolution is what it is....


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## peters (Jun 19, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> RF 24-105 f4 L IS or RF 24-70 f2.8 L IS (I like the 24-105 idea and it is getting great review)


I personaly like 24-70 2,8 MUCH more than 24-105. I have the EF 24-105 L (as backup) and I pretty much never use it, not even for travel. I prefer the better IQ of the 24-70 L 2,8 II. But most important is for my work the F2,8 over F4 - I think its a noteable difference for portraits. With the 24-70 I could shoot an entire wedding - even portraits with a nice shallow depth of field and even shots in rather dark light are possible. F4 is a little bit less usefull in this area in my opinion


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## TomR (Jun 19, 2020)

Do you guys think the R5 Mark II will be released soon? should i wait to buy?


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## Etienne (Jun 19, 2020)

The rolling shutter and digital zoom capabilities of the R5 and R6 will probably be the deciding factor for me. Of course, other unexpected differences will probably materialize after these cameras are released.
On the other hand, 4K 120p of the R5 and Raw record are attractive.
I'm going to have to wait for full reviews of both cameras to decide.


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## magarity (Jun 19, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I still want to know if it will have a recording limit


By recording limit do you mean the 29 minute 59 seconds thing? You shouldn't need to ask that; it's a tax thing. Certain large markets tax "video cameras" at a much higher rate and the primary definition is whether it can record 30 minutes or more at a go. Don't bother asking this about any brand's cameras that are not dedicated video cameras.


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## Danglin52 (Jun 19, 2020)

peters said:


> I personaly like 24-70 2,8 MUCH more than 24-105. I have the EF 24-105 L (as backup) and I pretty much never use it, not even for travel. I prefer the better IQ of the 24-70 L 2,8 II. But most important is for my work the F2,8 over F4 - I think its a noteable difference for portraits. With the 24-70 I could shoot an entire wedding - even portraits with a nice shallow depth of field and even shots in rather dark light are possible. F4 is a little bit less usefull in this area in my opinion



Are you talking the EF versions of the 24-70 / 24-105 or the RF versions? I have been very conflicted over this decision the new RF is shaper than the old. I currently own the EF 24-70 f2.8 L II which I could keep and adapt to the R system. My interest in the RF 24-105 f4 L IS was the .25lbs lighter (.50lbs lighter than the RF 24-70), IS, and extra 35mm of focal length. It also gave me a 2 RF lens solution that covered 24-500 without a break. I know the f2.8 is an advantage and both f2.8's are probably shaper than the RF 24-105 f4 L IS. Do you think you would use the RF 24-105 if it was sharper than the old 24-105? I replaced my EF 70-200 f2.8 L IS II with the EF 70-200 f4 L IS II to save weight and have never looked back, great lens.


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## Bahrd (Jun 19, 2020)

TomR said:


> Do you guys think the R5 Mark II will be released soon? should i wait to buy?


You shouldn't. Wait for Mark III...


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## tomri (Jun 19, 2020)

Lacking economies of scale in the sensor business will likely continue to be Canon‘s biggest weakness in the future. I suspect the R6 20mpix is for that reason too, i.e. synergies with 1dxiii production. One needs to factor that into the decision for a future camera system.


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## PeterParker (Jun 19, 2020)

Suddenly very interested in the R6. The big question for me is "identical AF" -- will the R6 have an identical processor to the R5? I could live with 20MP quite comfortably if I could get 1DXIII live view-esque AF in an ~$2,500 USD package.


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## TomR (Jun 19, 2020)

Bahrd said:


> You shouldn't. Wait for Mark III...



any rumoured specs on that bad boy?


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## peters (Jun 19, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> Are you talking the EF versions of the 24-70 / 24-105 or the RF versions? I have been very conflicted over this decision the new RF is shaper than the old. I currently own the EF 24-70 f2.8 L II which I could keep and adapt to the R system. My interest in the RF 24-105 f4 L IS was the .25lbs lighter (.50lbs lighter than the RF 24-70), IS, and extra 35mm of focal length. It also gave me a 2 RF lens solution that covered 24-500 without a break. I know the f2.8 is an advantage and both f2.8's are probably shaper than the RF 24-105 f4 L IS. Do you think you would use the RF 24-105 if it was sharper than the old 24-105? I replaced my EF 70-200 f2.8 L IS II with the EF 70-200 f4 L IS II to save weight and have never looked back, great lens.


I mean the EF 24 - 105 f4L IS I and the EF 24-70 f2,8L II.
The EF 24- 105 f4L I is not that sharp or great. Also the IS is quite loud. The II is a bit better I read. And the RF is said to be also better. So the difference to the 24-70 (which is very sharp and has great colors, bokeh and af) isnt that big anymore. 
But I think that the advantage of one stop is for me more important than the extra 35mm zoom range


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## wockawocka (Jun 19, 2020)

goldenhusky said:


> Anyone know "No top-down screen" means the R6 has fixed (no vari-angle tilt) LCD screen on the back or that referes to the LCD screen that shows setting on the top?



It means the settings screen at the top. I'm finding the R6 more interesting that the R5 from a usability point of view. On the R the visibility of the top down display wasn't that great compared to the old style, the dial is welcome and the lower pixel count could mean fatter pixels and better IQ.


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## spomeniks (Jun 19, 2020)

jam05 said:


> not going an SD bus over express bus. Express bus technology any day. SD cards have very slow write times and is where the bottleneck starts.



I agree with you! But my statement was about what people _prefer_. People (online, at least) have gotten so mad about cameras that use more expensive CFexpress media instead of SD - and they don't look at what the benefits of an Express bus are offering them.. they just see price. I totally expect that the fact the R6 has two SD slots over the mixed media option of the R5 will be a selling point to many people, those who don't want to pay for the extra performance of CFexpress.


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## spomeniks (Jun 19, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I'm greedy...can I get a waveform monitor? I don't use zebras as much as I use the WFM, WFM is way more useful but usually so small you need an external monitor to see it.



Waveform is something I'm really curious about too. I switched from a 5D Mark IV to a Panasonic S1 a year ago and am unsure about whether I'd want to move to the R5 if it doesn't have a waveform overlay. The lack of that feature in the 1DX Mark III has me worried


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## Drcampbellicu (Jun 19, 2020)

padam said:


> It is aimed at the future A7IV (or a bit towards the A7SIII as well).
> It has much better video specs than the A7III with 10bit 4k60p, swivel screen, probably better IBIS, more advanced AF, way better EVF and screen, both card slots are UHS-II, etc.
> A7RIII is a cheap option to get 42MP, but severly lacking in other aspects, slower frame-rate, not as good AF, no full touchscreen, etc. I mean it is a much older camera of course, so it should be lagging behind.
> 
> ...



Sony’s mirrorless AF has been better than canons. I am hoping that this camera changes that.
The current R series is not better than the older A73 in terms of autofocus.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jun 19, 2020)

Waveforms would be nice but they require a lot of processing and I don’t think Canon can handle that extra load on top of everything else they are trying to manage. The Panasonic’s aren’t putting anywhere near as much effort into AF as Canon’s DPAF so they can afford the extra cycles. I’m guessing you’ll need to go with an external recorder if you really want waveforms at this point. I’d love to be wrong


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## padam (Jun 19, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> Sony’s mirrorless AF has been better than canons. I am hoping that this camera changes that.
> The current R series is not better than the older A73 in terms of autofocus.


I think the low-light AF is better on the EOS R compared to the A7III
While I do think face detect looses the subject sometimes, as long as I keep it in single-point, it works really well.
Not a sports camera, but for most situations, it does the job pretty well overall.

Looking at the 1DX III A9II AF comparison video, you can see a big improvement though, I expect the R6 to be similar.

Here in this test the A7III focuses on the wrong eye on many of the pictures, is that normal?
The EOS R just has a much higher hit rate, and that's with an f/1.2 lens instead of f/1.4.





It is not that easy to compare, because they might behave differently with various lenses, but overall, I don't think the A7III is "walking over" the EOS R in terms of autofocus (the A9/A9II is a different story)


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## herein2020 (Jun 19, 2020)

magarity said:


> By recording limit do you mean the 29 minute 59 seconds thing? You shouldn't need to ask that; it's a tax thing. Certain large markets tax "video cameras" at a much higher rate and the primary definition is whether it can record 30 minutes or more at a go. Don't bother asking this about any brand's cameras that are not dedicated video cameras.



Yes that's what I mean and I should absolutely ask that; the GH5, GH5s, and S1H does not have recording limits. Panasonic simply released different firmware for European markets which is absolutely the way it should be; the rest of the world shouldn't have a recording limit because of some country's tax laws. 

Additionally, it is my understanding this import duty has been removed in the EU: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2016-001277-ASW_LT.html?redirect but I am no lawyer so I can't verify it is actually removed.

If Panasonic can do it then Canon can certainly do it as well.


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## herein2020 (Jun 19, 2020)

spomeniks said:


> Waveform is something I'm really curious about too. I switched from a 5D Mark IV to a Panasonic S1 a year ago and am unsure about whether I'd want to move to the R5 if it doesn't have a waveform overlay. The lack of that feature in the 1DX Mark III has me worried



Yes, especially when exposing CLOG, you really need a WFM to do it properly in WDR scenarios. Of course there is the external monitor option, but that's more gear to lug around and set up, and it's not practical on a gimbal.


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## Whowe (Jun 19, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> This list is just a pre-order list that I will fine tune based on reviews during the period of pre-order to ship. It is easier to get on the list up front rather than see a positive review and want to change your pre-order. I am hoping to have a two week trip to GTNP/YNP in late September/early October and would like to have the gear available for the trip. In wildlife photography you shoot in a wide variety of situations, environment and lighting that push the gear requirement. If possible, I will always choose a zoom combination over primes for the versatility IF I can get the IQ, low light performance & reach required for the shot. I shoot the 200-400 w/1.4 integrated TC (f5.6 @560mm) when using a tripod and the 100-400 II + 1.4x TC when I need something handheld. Because the 100-400 is a f5.6 a and f8 with the TC it is slow but workable for handheld shooting in dim conditions. Since the 100-500 is F7.1 + 1.4x tC will be f10, the 800mm becomes a reasonable option @ f11. I don't see any situations other than high noon on a bright sunny day when I would even consider using the 800mm + 1.4x. This is especially true when you consider the lack of separation you will have based on DOF @f16. My bet is that my choice will be the 100-500 + 1.4x TC over the 800mm, but I won't know until I see the reviews OR have it in my has to test. If I don't like it, I will return to the vendor within the return policy.
> 
> I wouldn't place any bets on a non-L prime being shaper than an L zoom until I saw the tests, UNLESS it is something like the EF 400mm f4 DO IS II @ $6k plus. You are probably correct on lighter weight based on the experience with the 400 DO. In addition, I might eliminate the TC but the 100-500 is a much more versatile / usable lens than the 800mm. If I had to choose only 1 lens of the 2, it would be the 100-500 + 1.4x TC unless I was a full time birder. There is also the issue of the [email protected] f11 for birders shooting in forest conditions. I did't do all of the math, but I would only need to crop the R5 + 100-500mm image 18-20% to equal the FOV of the 800mm. With 40-45 mp, that would still leave a 30mp file.


I believe the R5 may also has crop modes, like the 5DS. With EVF, this will allow you to see the full cropped frame in camera while shooting and give you the extra reach on the 100-500.


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## Bahrd (Jun 19, 2020)

TomR said:


> any rumoured specs on that bad boy?


It will have an 8k vertical video mode - for those who will make signage ads...


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## TAF (Jun 19, 2020)

Humm; save $1500 and get half the resolution, but probably better low light performance.

Decisions...


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## Drcampbellicu (Jun 19, 2020)

AF performance has been reviewed widely for these 2 cameras before and after updates and it’s been consistent that Sony has better AF for mirrorless 
Canon fell behind and we all hope they will catch up with the new models.

QUOTE="padam, post: 837568, member: 376398"]
I think the low-light AF is better on the EOS R compared to the A7III
While I do think face detect looses the subject sometimes, as long as I keep it in single-point, it works really well.
Not a sports camera, but for most situations, it does the job pretty well overall.

Looking at the 1DX III A9II AF comparison video, you can see a big improvement though, I expect the R6 to be similar.

Here in this test the A7III focuses on the wrong eye on many of the pictures, is that normal?
The EOS R just has a much higher hit rate, and that's with an f/1.2 lens instead of f/1.4.





It is not that easy to compare, because they might behave differently with various lenses, but overall, I don't think the A7III is "walking over" the EOS R in terms of autofocus (the A9/A9II is a different story)
[/QUOTE]


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## NoNaCannon (Jun 19, 2020)

Any news on data rates of the video files on either of the new cameras?


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## Danglin52 (Jun 19, 2020)

Whowe said:


> I believe the R5 may also has crop modes, like the 5DS. With EVF, this will allow you to see the full cropped frame in camera while shooting and give you the extra reach on the 100-500.


I am really hoping for a crop feature since it would be a plus to save time in post and let you see the framing during capture. I know several wildlife guys that have used the 5dS in crop mode and got some great photos. They tell me the challenge using the 5dS are frame rate and overall processing throughput. They like the results when they can get the capture. I hope the R5 45mp is true so that I we plenty of pixels to work with on the crop. It is always better to fill the frame with the image, but cropping to a 30mp image is still a win. .


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 19, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I am really hoping for a crop feature since it would be a plus to save time in post and let you see the framing during capture. I know several wildlife guys that have used the 5dS in crop mode and got some great photos. They tell me the challenge using the 5dS are frame rate and overall processing throughput. They like the results when they can get the capture. I hope the R5 45mp is true so that I we plenty of pixels to work with on the crop. It is always better to fill the frame with the image, but cropping to a 30mp image is still a win. .


I expect it to be a lot like the EOS R, not the 5Ds. The R accepts adapted Canon crop lenses and automatically goes into APS-C crop mode or you can set it manually.


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## Czardoom (Jun 19, 2020)

Tsun said:


> I have zero loyalty towards either brand. I'm looking to upgrade from a fixed-lens Panasonic FZ1000, and a7 III and Canon R6 are the primary contenders. Main purpose is travel photography, I don't care about videos at all.
> Before Canon appeared in the picture I was planning to buy a7 III with Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 for about $3k total. It looks like similar set of R6 + Canon RF 24-70MM F2.8L lens will be about $4,7k - over a 50% premium, with not much to justify it at least in terms of specs for my use case. At below $2k with attractively priced option for 24-105 f/4 kit lens it could be worth considering, but at $2,5k body-only + more expensive lenses, it would have to crush Sony in terms of image quality.



If you have a chance, I would rent the cameras that you are interested in. Basing an expansive purchase on internet forum opinion or a spec list is not the best way to go about it. Comparing specs is especially misleading as a spec may or may not really work very well. All cameras, for example, have a dust removal system, but some users will tell you that one brand will have lots of dust issues while another has never or rarely had an issue. The same can be said for many specs.

While I have not tried the Sony A7 III, I did try both the A7 and the A7 II. My brief experience was quite enough to never consider Sony again - but, as I mentioned, that is just my opinion and you may not agree if you try one. I have both Canon and Olympus cameras - and in my opinion, They both have superior color to Sony and far better ergonomics. Both Sonys I tried underexposed the pics - one by a full stop, the other by 1 1/2 stops. Again, personal opinion, but the EVF was definitely inferior. While I didn't shoot any video, the Sony IBIS is reported by some to create a jitter effect with some video. The dust issue I mentioned, is also Sony's. Since you are looking at a Sigma lens, you wouldn't experience what might be the worst aspect of Sony - and that is their notoriously de-centered lenses. Their kit lenses - not at all inexpensive - were very poor. I tried two - and they were very poor away from the center. Reveiws agreed with my experience.

Again, that is just my opinion. Some of my favorite pro photographers use Sony and love them. Try them for yourself. That's my advice.


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## PhotonShark (Jun 19, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I'd venture 20mp has every bit as much of a place in the amateur arena as the pro arena, how many amateurs regularly _need _more than 20mp? As always there are exceptions and specific use cases but the vast majority of people shoot for screen and email and maybe a modest sized print, all easily handled by 20mp.



I used to get some great pictures on my 30D which was an 8.2mp camera. The only thing I would venture is that Canon is trying to move consumers towards FF. Putting an EF-S lens onto 20mp gives 7.8mp which is a little on the low side. I would have guessed that 26mp was more of the sweet spot. That allows a 10.1mp image on EF-S which is enough for 4K video and a reasonable image for stills.


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## martin_ (Jun 19, 2020)

It will be my first own camera. My bet is that the price will be $ 2300 (body only), although I would like $ 2000. I am from Argentina, which will be more expensive for me, but I am sure it will be worth it. I also hope that Sigma or Tamron will release their 24-70 2.8 IS RF, if that happens it will be part of my kit.


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## JeffP (Jun 20, 2020)

goldenhusky said:


> Anyone know "No top-down screen" means the R6 has fixed (no vari-angle tilt) LCD screen on the back or that referes to the LCD screen that shows setting on the top?


No Top Down screen refers to the screen on top of the camera. It will have a dial like the RP to adjust aperture, shutter etc


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## Skux (Jun 20, 2020)

Would be keen to know if it can do 4k with EF-S lenses.


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## navastronia (Jun 20, 2020)

PhotonShark said:


> I used to get some great pictures on my 30D which was an 8.2mp camera. The only thing I would venture is that Canon is trying to move consumers towards FF. Putting an EF-S lens onto 20mp gives 7.8mp which is a little on the low side. I would have guessed that 26mp was more of the sweet spot. That allows a 10.1mp image on EF-S which is enough for 4K video and a reasonable image for stills.





Skux said:


> Would be keen to know if it can do 4k with EF-S lenses.



DCI 4K is about 8.8mp, so if PhotonShark's math is correct, and EF-S lenses mounted on a 20mp body only have access to 7.8mp, then 4K would not be possible without the camera interpolating some data to make up for lacking resolution. Even 4K UHD (16:9 aspect ratio) requires 8.3mp.


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## Maarten (Jun 20, 2020)

I'm curious how it's stills will be since most of the leaked specs are aimed on video


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## Dermax22 (Jun 20, 2020)

The R6 Specs looks really good!
The only thing missing for me is GPS. - what do you think?


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## Fast351 (Jun 20, 2020)

TAF said:


> Humm; save $1500 and get half the resolution, but probably better low light performance.
> 
> Decisions...



That's what is boils down to for me as well. The extra money would solely be for a higher MP sensor. Not sure that it's worth it to me. 

Some of the other features (top down screen, better build Q) would be nice, but not worth the money. I don't do video so that has very little value to me. I think the fact that the EVF and AF systems will be the same as the big brother has sealed the R6 as the winner for me. It's just a question of pricing now. If the R5 and R6 are only $1K apart then the decision gets harder, but I think the $3999/$2499 thinking sounds about right to me. Hope the R6 is a little cheaper, but a couple hundred bucks won't change the decision.


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## Max TT (Jun 20, 2020)

"No raw video mode"

Does that mean no raw video mode internally and externally? 

Or just internal?


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## privatebydesign (Jun 20, 2020)

ryebread said:


> the R6 should have 1/8000,
> but the 6D/II does not
> and they haven't said anything yet. that is scaring me.
> 
> ...


Could you explain that, I find it hard to understand what you shoot where 1/8000 is a regular requirement.


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## WelshTony (Jun 20, 2020)

Could someone explain why it states 'Head' detection, rather than 'Eye' detection? Does that mean there is no eye detection or does head detection include eye detection?


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## peters (Jun 20, 2020)

spomeniks said:


> Waveform is something I'm really curious about too. I switched from a 5D Mark IV to a Panasonic S1 a year ago and am unsure about whether I'd want to move to the R5 if it doesn't have a waveform overlay. The lack of that feature in the 1DX Mark III has me worried


I think the AF alone is reasone enough to switch back  
I have the S1H, while it offers a incredible good image quality, the lack of a good constant AF makes it use in a lot of situations more difficult. Especialy on a gimbal, there is pretty much no way to use it with a shallow depth of field...


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## Kit. (Jun 20, 2020)

WelshTony said:


> Could someone explain why it states 'Head' detection, rather than 'Eye' detection? Does that mean there is no eye detection or does head detection include eye detection?


Head detection is supposed to be a more advanced technology (capable of finding heads by postures, and not just as local face-like patterns).

Besides, with f/11 lenses, do you really need to focus on an eye?


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## herein2020 (Jun 20, 2020)

peters said:


> I think the AF alone is reasone enough to switch back
> I have the S1H, while it offers a incredible good image quality, the lack of a good constant AF makes it use in a lot of situations more difficult. Especialy on a gimbal, there is pretty much no way to use it with a shallow depth of field...



As much as I love my GH5, AF and the L mount was the reason I am still waiting for Canon. The S1H looks like a great camera and I really wanted to like it, but that fan pulling in dust, no useable AF, and having to buy into the L mount made it a non starter for me. I'm glad Panasonic never released a GH6 because I'd have been stuck with another body right when the R6 was announced.


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## herein2020 (Jun 20, 2020)

Tsun said:


> Care to elaborate how Canon R6 beats Sony a7 III/a7R III in terms of photography? For video I agree, unless something unexpected happens it will be superior, but in terms of stills it looks like it will be the other way around. Other than personal attacks I haven't seen any arguments to the contrary, other than "probably better IBIS, more advanced AF", which are not possible to compare with just leaked specs.



I always find posts like yours comical because you are staring at spec sheets all day vs actually being in the field, shooting every single day on video and photography gear that is producing footage that customers are paying for. There is so much more that goes into a camera ecosystem that no spec sheets will ever tell you. Little things like ergonomics, lens selection, warranty support, temperature extremes performance, reliability, menu system, longevity, weather sealing, accessories, compatibility, real world battery life....my list goes on and on.

I'm not here to sell you on Canon, I couldn't care less either way what you end up buying, if a few posts on a Canon forum affect your buying decision then you are already off to a bad start. I have never owned a Sony, and I don't claim to know their product lineup; but what I do know is the stories I hear about reliability issues, quality control issues, lens quality control issues, non existent support, premature body failures....etc. I met a photographer at an event who had two of the latest Sony bodies; he mentioned that the sensor had just died in his previous Sony (which was only a year old) but that it was a good thing because he wanted to upgrade to the newest body anyway...this blew my mind. I have never heard of a Canon sensor dying in a little over a year in any body, even my Canon Rebel is 6 years old, has passed the 50K shutter count mark and is still going strong.

Long story short I am sure every spec sheet from Sony will tell you what you want to hear, but I guarantee you my little T6 Canon Rebel will take better pictures than any Sony on the list if that Sony's battery has already died, the lens won't focus, or the sensor has failed. My only first hand experience with Sony was handling a display model in a store. The buttons felt like cheap plastic, my hands were jammed up against the lens, the menu system was terrible, and everything felt like cheap plastic. I've never touched one since.

My 5DIV has shot in conditions with -20 degree wind chill, 130 degree blazing desert heat, was doused with a huge saltwater wave in Hawaii (my tripod still hasn't recovered), and still works like the day I got it. That type of reliability to me is more important than any spec sheet any manufacturer will ever release.

BTW I am far from a Canon "fanboy", I don't care what brand I shoot with as long as it meets my requirements (i.e. I did not get the EOS R because it had one card slot and that awful function bar). I got a Panasonic GH5 because Canon was not meeting my video needs. I would have left Canon long ago if there was a photography company that would better meet my needs. I am probably the least brand loyal consumer imaginable; I don't care who makes the equipment as long as it gets the job done. With that being said, for me, when it comes to photography and the types of photography that I offer; Canon has no equal. IMO when the R5 and R6 are released; for the type of video work that I do....Canon will once again have no equal.


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## Deleted member 378664 (Jun 20, 2020)

Dermax22 said:


> The R6 Specs looks really good!
> The only thing missing for me is GPS. - what do you think?


This is one thing, I'm also missing. Once one is used to a build in GPS it is "hard to swallow" to use the external GPS receiver or the Canon Camera connect App to get GPS data via phone. But leaving out GPS will certainly help to get more shots out of a battery charge.

Frank


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## Foa2020 (Jun 20, 2020)

Xavitxaung said:


> The real question it is... The EOS R6 is it going to become a real rival to the Sony A7III?


Is that a question


Darrell Cadieux said:


>


if you are a photographer I can understand your reaction but for video centric users with EF glass, this sounds like the tool many us have waited for. If you combine it with the electronic var ND RF-EF lens mount, it could be a formidable camera that is way superior to any other offering in it’s class. If this is confirmed, I will continue to use my 5DIV for photography and replace my GH5/speedbooster with this camera for sure.


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## bokehmon22 (Jun 20, 2020)

I'm surprised R specs is as good as it is. IBIS + 5.6 mpx, I'm in.
I will probably pick this up used or refurbished since I retired from wedding photography.


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## Ralph Conway (Jun 20, 2020)

Canon is going the Nikon way now (Z7/Z6). Looks like the bodies are near to be equal (hope so they do on the back side, too). I want back a scroll wheel and a joystick. And if EVF and batteries are same, it would be great. A 5 Million dots EVF will make any OVF obsolete, too. Even more because in my opinion the existing Rs EVF was the best one up to date. My RP´s one is already far better then Sony a7 III (and coming a7 I´s?). And I am pretty sure Canon will show no Nikonlike battery grip stupidity. I guess, If all those specs turn out to be the truth here come the siblings to rule all mirrorless competitors for the next couple of years. Nice!


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## Ralph Conway (Jun 20, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> My point is the 6D was traditionally the entry level FF, IMO both the R5 and R6 have moved up the scale far enough to leave room below for a new entry level FF which would be the RP. Many people on here were saying the R6 won't be much of a camera due to the 20MP sensor, no top down LCD, and lower build quality. My point all along is that those specs actually are clues to anyone in the video world that this thing will actually be a workhorse for video while still taking fantastic stills....a slot the 6D never held.





PhotoRN86 said:


> So... does the R6 have better iso capability (does the mean low light capability?) because of the 20MP count? vs the R5's possible 40+? I remember seeing posts in the past that say high megapixels have no relation to the low light abilities... but yea just not sure sure which info is correct.





Tsun said:


> I think unless Canon has some surprise for us R6 @$2500 won't be much of a competition in photography to Sony a7 III/a7R III, due to higher price, lower pixel count and worse lens selection - unless R6 has something special in terms of image quality, looks like Sony will be the clear choice.


Not my opinion. The EVF of a7 III is to bad. My RPs one is much better and more reliable. A7R III might be able to compete. Here in germany it has an comparable price as R6 (rumored). But the ergonomics are horrible, too (imo). Next to this Sony still does not offer any working lens adapter. Both, Nikon and Canon did an excellent job here. Comparable expensive as Sony lenses the RF lenses belong to the best available lenses in the market. I am pretty sure I will not invest in any Sony lenses. I switched to mirrorless with RP being able to use my existing lenses without any restrictions (they perform better witrh adapter than on native EF mount bodies). Now I am open to switch to one or two of those excellent RF lenses within the next couple of years.


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## cpsico (Jun 20, 2020)

Canon is going to sell a ton of RF lenses to go with these bodies if everything is absolutely true about the specs of these cameras.


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## Ralph Conway (Jun 20, 2020)

Xavitxaung said:


> The real question it is... The EOS R6 is it going to become a real rival to the Sony A7III?


I do not think that this is the "real" question. The first Sony body that became interesting for me to get a job done was A7 R III. But it was way to expensive had to many pixels (I prefere 20-24 MP and noone of my customers ever ever asked for more) and I never felt comfortable with its ergonomics. 

The a7 IV might feel better in the hands than its predecessor. But in my opinion it will still suck in EVF, a horrible menu, in missing touch functioality and articulated screen. If the final price is in my range, the R6 might be the right mirrorless choice for me. Like 6D was and still is (I am using the 3rd body now) in DSLR.


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## Ralph Conway (Jun 20, 2020)

Joules said:


> Or the huge number of people who used a Canon with the 18 MP sensor... found in such lame cameras as the original 7D. Oh yeah, the 7D II is 20 MP as well. And noby liked that camera . That's why Canon won't refresh it  (RIP)



Can it be that you do not know what you are talking about? As far I can remember 7D and 7D II where successful cameras 11 and 6 years ago. They became obsolete because most actual consumercameras can do the same today. The professional bodies mentioned above are amed to a completely different target group of professional users. You might find 20 MP "lame". But it is more than enough for (imo) 90% of the jobs that have to be done.


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## Ralph Conway (Jun 20, 2020)

Kampie said:


> Is anything known about the body size of the r6? Will it be comparable to the r5 or smaller like the rp?


On the picture it looks like the same size. At the front one of the connections is missing. And it will not have a mode dial wheel instead of the shoulder screen. But as far I know there are still no pictures of the back side. If it looks like R5 I guess I would be in.


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## unfocused (Jun 20, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Could you explain that, I find it hard to understand what you shoot where 1/8000 is a regular requirement.


1/8000 with the f11 lenses will be great for location shooting on the sun.


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## scyrene (Jun 20, 2020)

Ralph Conway said:


> Can it be that you do not know what you are talking about? As far I can remember 7D and 7D II where successful cameras 11 and 6 years ago. They became obsolete because most actual consumercameras can do the same today. The professional bodies mentioned above are amed to a completely different target group of professional users. You might find 20 MP "lame". But it is more than enough for (imo) 90% of the jobs that have to be done.



It seems you are unfamiliar with "sarcasm".


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## Joules (Jun 21, 2020)

Ralph Conway said:


> Can it be that you do not know what you are talking about? As far I can remember 7D and 7D II where successful cameras 11 and 6 years ago. They became obsolete because most actual consumercameras can do the same today. The professional bodies mentioned above are amed to a completely different target group of professional users. You might find 20 MP "lame". But it is more than enough for (imo) 90% of the jobs that have to be done.


Sorry for not including an /s tag. I thought the emojis where enough to convey the sarcasm.


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## navastronia (Jun 21, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Could you explain that, I find it hard to understand what you shoot where 1/8000 is a regular requirement.



Full sun at f/1.2 can necessitate 1/8000 even at ISO 100. Sunny 16 tells us that 1/8000 could be useful even at f/1.4, and in a sandy/snowy environment, even moreso.

1/8000 is useful to have, and if the R6 doesn't have it, it _will_ be an issue for some shooters.

While it may be lame to call a camera "crippled" for any reason, especially in this day and age (honestly, can we be done with that?), I don't see the purpose in defending a hereto-unannounced product in the case that it's missing a feature some people use.


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## PhotoRN86 (Jun 21, 2020)

I’m trying to find more reasons to solidify my decision with an R5 over the R6 since the R6 has rumored specs that got a lot of us interested... so another thing I wanted to touch on was the idea of ever since RF glass came out, people kept saying there were great, but we still needed a Canon camera to be able to get these lenses to their full potentials... so with that idea, wouldn’t the R5 be THAT camera to do so more than the R6 because of the MP count? I got the RF 50mm 1.2 and the RF 70-20 2.8 For my RP, so would the R5 be the obvious direction to go to make take advantage because of the higher MO count? Or are there other factors that I am missing when these people said these lenses were not being used to their fullest properly because of the current bodies.


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## Besisika (Jun 21, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Could you explain that, I find it hard to understand what you shoot where 1/8000 is a regular requirement.


A regular requirement is an overstatement, but occasionally, yes possible. Those who shoot at 1.4 would need it at mid day. 
I used to shoot wide open back in the day. Below photo was taken at F16 (1/6400th, F2.0). Her shoulder was overexposed so I fixed it in post.
I do not shoot wide open any longer, but I remember shooting batman at 1/8000th at 2.8 in order to get contrasty look using reflections on cars as source of bokeh. I started at 1/3200th f2.8 but there were too many bokeh so I stepped down to 1/8000th to get rid of the majority. After 5 or 6 shots my 1200W strobe began to falter and I stopped, but the few I got were good enough. 
It is a mater of taste but I do not understand people shooting at 1.4 midday, outdoor. Again, I used to shoot at 2.0, but don't do that any longer. Nowadays, the widest I shoot is 3.5 when outdoor. Indoors, I can go down to 1.6. I would re-take below photo at 5.6 if I could.
I wouldn't need a 1/8000th, but some people might and you never know who asks for it.


__
https://flic.kr/p/WiVqRr


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## privatebydesign (Jun 21, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Full sun at f/1.2 can necessitate 1/8000 even at ISO 100. Sunny 16 tells us that 1/8000 could be useful even at f/1.4, and in a sandy/snowy environment, even moreso.
> 
> 1/8000 is useful to have, and if the R6 doesn't have it, it _will_ be an issue for some shooters.
> 
> While it may be lame to call a camera "crippled" for any reason, especially in this day and age (honestly, can we be done with that?), I don't see the purpose in defending a hereto-unannounced product in the case that it's missing a feature some people use.


After posting my question earlier I looked at my LR library EXIF, I have 100,070 images in it and 365 images shot at 1/8000, that's 0.36%. Indeed all shutter speeds above 1/4000 (1/5,000 - 1/16,000) were 1,287, or less than 1.3%. In almost all of those situations it was because the shutter speed was set to auto in bright situations many where there are reflections off water (that throw the EV off anyway), I could have lowered ISO in the majority of those situations.

Now I agree it is something nice to have on rare occasions but that wasn't my question, I asked what ryebread what they shot that *necessitated* that capability to the point that the camera wasn't worth buying without it. Most of us have shot in sun and wanted narrow dof, but in my experience it isn't a particularly pleasing look and I have't seen anybody that specializes in it, is there another case use?


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## PhotonShark (Jun 21, 2020)

Dermax22 said:


> The R6 Specs looks really good!
> The only thing missing for me is GPS. - what do you think?



Would love GPS on these bodies, although not that hopeful.

Short of an included GPS, I really wish Canon (and other manufacturers) would allow a Bluetooth link with stand alone GPS receivers.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 21, 2020)

This out of camera image would be a typical 1/16,000 exposure from me, because the light changed rapidly as the surfers came into shade from a hillside I tried auto exposure in Av mode. The camera chose 1/16,000 and obviously was thrown by the white water, this is full Caribbean sun at 10 in the morning.

Now if I was still shooting surfers in the Caribbean I'd want a camera that shoots 1/8,000 though back then I was limited to 200 iso and I could go at least two stops lower on that and I need at least one stop more exposure anyway.

Like I say, yes there are case uses for needing, not wanting, actually needing 1/8,000, I just wondered what ryebread's were.


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## navastronia (Jun 21, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> This out of camera image would be a typical 1/16,000 exposure from me, because the light changed rapidly as the surfers came into shade from a hillside I tried auto exposure in Av mode. The camera chose 1/16,000 and obviously was thrown by the white water, this is full Caribbean sun at 10 in the morning.
> 
> Now if I was still shooting surfers in the Caribbean I'd want a camera that shoots 1/8,000 though back then I was limited to 200 iso and I could go at least two stops lower on that and I need at least one stop more exposure anyway.
> 
> Like I say, yes there are case uses for needing, not wanting, actually needing 1/8,000, I just wondered what ryebread's were.



I understood your post as the kind of rhetorical question I see here often when discussing new Canon launches, e.g., forumers reactively ask "why do you actually _need_ (attribute)?" (e.g., 24p) when someone complains that Canon has left a feature out of a product.

I apologize if I was wrong about your question -- although, even if that wasn't the sentiment behind it, I certainly doubt that kind of thinking has gone away, here, generally.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 21, 2020)

navastronia said:


> I understood your post as the kind of rhetorical question I see here often when discussing new Canon launches, e.g., forumers reactively ask "why do you actually _need_ (attribute)?" (e.g., 24p) when someone complains that Canon has left a feature out of a product.
> 
> I apologize if I was wrong about your question, although even if that wasn't the sentiment behind your comment, I certainly doubt that kind of thinking has gone away, here, generally.


You are right, we are on the same page. Like 24p, 4K, >35mp etc etc, I understand desires, flip screens, WiFi, AF point linked spot metering etc but to write off lower order cameras because they don’t have a very specific technical feature with limited practical applications that is normally only seen on higher end more expensive bodies begs the simple enquiry. Heck I’m happy to learn!


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 21, 2020)

Dermax22 said:


> The R6 Specs looks really good!
> The only thing missing for me is GPS. - what do you think?


Never once used GPS. First thing that gets turned off


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## privatebydesign (Jun 21, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Never once used GPS. First thing that gets turned off


I never saw the interest in it until I had it. because it integrates so well with Lightroom I just use it as another search term now and wouldn't be without it.


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 21, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I never saw the interest in it until I had it. because it integrates so well with Lightroom I just use it as another search term now and wouldn't be without it.


Fair enough. I guess with the way I use lightroom it doesn't seem to be something I need


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## Ralph Conway (Jun 21, 2020)

Joules said:


> Sorry for not including an /s tag. I thought the emojis where enough to convey the sarcasm.


Now I saw them


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## koenkooi (Jun 21, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I never saw the interest in it until I had it. because it integrates so well with Lightroom I just use it as another search term now and wouldn't be without it.



That's how I use it as well, and when exporting I have LR name the files with date and location to make them easier to identify later on: *20180926 0959 Canada Vancouver - Canon EOS M - EF-M11-22mm f-4-5.6 IS STM at 22 mm - IMG_3517 -_.jpg*

If I could go back in time, I'd bribe the EXIF committee to add support for timezones. Since I don't know how to time-travel, I hope Canon adds an option to derive the timezone from the location.


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## Fischer (Jun 21, 2020)

peters said:


> But my Sony A7R IV with 60mpixel is truely A LOT better for product photography in the studio. The level of detail is simply impressive (given good light and sharp lenses). It allows for way cleaner cutouts and way better retouching. And the possibilites that comes with the room to crop is also very handy for event-photography.



The improved post processing options of a high megapixel count is too often underrated. The advantage for cropping is evident - and very handy. Even when you can control the situation extra pixels allow you to i.e. use a 50mm lens like a 85mm lens or a 24mm like a 35mm lens - something I often rely on when just taking one prime to go instead of carrying a bag around.


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## Fischer (Jun 21, 2020)

Dermax22 said:


> The R6 Specs looks really good!
> The only thing missing for me is GPS. - what do you think?


GPS is leaving cameras. It costs money and everyone has a mobile phone that can do the tracking anyway. I'd like to have it too, but I can see why its a dead end for camera makers to include it until they start connecting what you are shooting to the web in realtime.


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## Th0msky (Jun 21, 2020)

Would it be worth to buy the R6 together with the build-in ND rf-ef adapter and stick with EF lenses? Or are RF lenses that much better to just stick with those and buy a polarpro ND filter with any stepup rings? Because I will need some sort of ND filters for my run & gun stuff and a 24-105 f4 lens


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## BillB (Jun 21, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Full sun at f/1.2 can necessitate 1/8000 even at ISO 100. Sunny 16 tells us that 1/8000 could be useful even at f/1.4, and in a sandy/snowy environment, even moreso.
> 
> 1/8000 is useful to have, and if the R6 doesn't have it, it _will_ be an issue for some shooters.
> 
> While it may be lame to call a camera "crippled" for any reason, especially in this day and age (honestly, can we be done with that?), I don't see the purpose in defending a hereto-unannounced product in the case that it's missing a feature some people use.


Some people manage to make do with neutral density filters.


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## peters (Jun 21, 2020)

Fischer said:


> The improved post processing options of a high megapixel count is too often underrated.


ha, jeah indeed 
And its not even important if you actualy deliver the product shots in this resolution or in a lower resolution. The Cutout and retouch is so much more detailed, cleaner and easier - its a better end result with less hussle 
But of course good light, low ISO, sharp lenses and perfect focus is very important to actualy get a perfectly sharp 60mp image. Things that would be okay at 20mp are suddenly visible at 60mp.


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## Twinix (Jun 21, 2020)

Th0msky said:


> Would it be worth to buy the R6 together with the build-in ND rf-ef adapter and stick with EF lenses? Or are RF lenses that much better to just stick with those and buy a polarpro ND filter with any stepup rings? Because I will need some sort of ND filters for my run & gun stuff and a 24-105 f4 lens



I’m in the same situation, and my question is to you: Do you want to adjust the ND filter whilst filming or use the control ring to adjust ISO?
For me, right now I got the Xa50 (I need XLR, c100 ii to old and c200 not right now for me) and that has internal ND, and I adjust the gain (ISO) to get the right exposure. Another question for you: Do you need ND anyways to shoot at the aperture you want? 
Sorry for not knowing/answering your questions directly, but thats my thoughts being in the same situation more or less. I love having the sunhood on, so I might go for the adapter (so I get “internal”, variable ND), but at the same time I would like to get native lens + control ring.


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## Th0msky (Jun 21, 2020)

Twinix said:


> I’m in the same situation, and my question is to you: Do you want to adjust the ND filter whilst filming or use the control ring to adjust ISO?
> For me, right now I got the Xa50 (I need XLR, c100 ii to old and c200 not right now for me) and that has internal ND, and I adjust the gain (ISO) to get the right exposure. Another question for you: Do you need ND anyways to shoot at the aperture you want?
> Sorry for not knowing/answering your questions directly, but thats my thoughts being in the same situation more or less. I love having the sunhood on, so I might go for the adapter (so I get “internal”, variable ND), but at the same time I would like to get native lens + control ring.



I'm a videographer and I am going to buy the R6 for video. I'm not interested in the photography side whatsoever. So for me, I want to shoot outside with my fastest apertures possible (like f1.4-4) and I very likely will have to use ND filters in those cases in order to keep right exposure.


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## Stig Nygaard (Jun 21, 2020)

Fischer said:


> GPS is leaving cameras. It costs money and everyone has a mobile phone that can do the tracking anyway. I'd like to have it too, but I can see why its a dead end for camera makers to include it until they start connecting what you are shooting to the web in realtime.



Except the smartphone solution works like shit. At least that's my experience so far. It works better with an external gps-device and synchronize geolocation in post-processing even though it is extra work in an already too time-consuming post-process and feels like going 6-8 years back in time to before I purchased the EOS 7DII and Powershot S100 :-/ ...
My new experience is from G5XII and EOS 90D (I'm going to sell the 90D again).


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## Besisika (Jun 21, 2020)

BillB said:


> Some people manage to make do with neutral density filters.


True. I used ND filter on my old canon 135mm 2.0 and got a lot of failures when shooting backlit late in the afternoon.
I am planning on getting the adapter with built-in variable ND. I hope it would deliver better result, given that the ND is not on the front of the lens.
What ND do you use that you prefer it over HSS?


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## Ozarker (Jun 22, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> This out of camera image would be a typical 1/16,000 exposure from me, because the light changed rapidly as the surfers came into shade from a hillside I tried auto exposure in Av mode. The camera chose 1/16,000 and obviously was thrown by the white water, this is full Caribbean sun at 10 in the morning.
> 
> Now if I was still shooting surfers in the Caribbean I'd want a camera that shoots 1/8,000 though back then I was limited to 200 iso and I could go at least two stops lower on that and I need at least one stop more exposure anyway.
> 
> Like I say, yes there are case uses for needing, not wanting, actually needing 1/8,000, I just wondered what ryebread's were.


I'll often go 1/8000 at ISO 50 and f/1.2 during outdoor portraits when using flash. Especially if I want the sun in the background. This is even the case near sundown. However, I could always throw on an ND filter or stop down a little to overcome a 1/6000 sec limit. It allows me to shoot in full sun and things don't look harsh. It's just what I like to do, but not something I have to do. I wouldn't not buy a camera because of 1/6000.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 22, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I'll often go 1/8000 at ISO 50 and f/1.2 during outdoor portraits when using flash. Especially if I want the sun in the background. This is even the case near sundown. However, I could always throw on an ND filter or stop down a little to overcome a 1/6000 sec limit. It allows me to shoot in full sun and things don't look harsh. It's just what I like to do, but not something I have to do. I wouldn't not buy a camera because of 1/6000.


At 1/8000 and iso 50 how much flash power do you think you are getting? You are minimum of five stops down from full power but most HSS flashes are going to lose another couple of stops on top of that. A reflector would be much more effective and powerful and a darn sight cheaper.


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## stevelee (Jun 22, 2020)

PhotonShark said:


> Would love GPS on these bodies, although not that hopeful.
> 
> Short of an included GPS, I really wish Canon (and other manufacturers) would allow a Bluetooth link with stand alone GPS receivers.


I usually leave GPS on with my 6D2, even though these days I’m mostly shooting within walking distance of my house. The metadata is not needed, but then close to home, battery life is not an issue.

When traveling, though, I shot S and G series cameras (currently a G5X II) that rely on Camera Connect to get GPS data from my phone. I have found that works just fine, but usually don’t bother to turn it on. On a long day of sightseeing I am concerned about battery life on both devices, perhaps needlessly. What I do when I’m somewhere I will want pinpoint later is just take a shot with my iPhone. Then later I can just check the metadata from that shot. It happens rarely enough that it is not a bother. I think of times on the Antrim coast of Ireland and on beaches in Hawaii (other than Waikiki). The time stamp helps me coordinate pictures from both camera and phone if there is some doubt.


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## Ozarker (Jun 22, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> At 1/8000 and iso 50 how much flash power do you think you are getting? You are minimum of five stops down from full power but most HSS flashes are going to lose another couple of stops on top of that. A reflector would be much more effective and powerful and a darn sight cheaper.


Since I don't use Canon Speedlites, but use Flashpoint gear, the flash power isn't reported in exif for me to tell you the exact power I used. That would depend upon the position of the sun, brightness of the sun, and time of day, and how much diffusion I use (single, double, or triple or none). Usually I am using a large parabolic with a focusing rod that I can use to move the flash further into or out of the parabolic to focus the light on the model. I should probably start logging the flash settings for the shots when I do it and eliminate the trial and error. Usually though, it will vary from 1/4-1/2 power (usually double diffused or single diffused) and the model is always very close to the modifier (3-5 ft). Sometimes it is a single 600ws monolight in a single modifier, sometimes I'm using a 600 ws in one modifier and then dual 200ws lights in another modifier. Unfortunately, I only get to practice 3-4 times a year and this year has been terrible for doing anything at all thanks to the pandemic. I also rarely do anything in the winter. I doubt I'll be shooting anyone other than my grandson this year.

What I will do is underexpose the ambient and then light the model. I do everything in manual, no TTL because it doesn't allow me the control I want.

Yes, I could use a reflector, but I most often have nobody to hold one for me and I find they don't allow me much control of the light. Since I already own the flash and the modifiers, cost isn't an issue. My three light were under $1,500 combined.

On three photos below, no ND filter is used. I have other photos where I use either a 3-stop or 6-stop ND and the shutter speeds are considerably slower.

At any rate, it works well enough for me. I am more than happy with what I get. On the rare occasion I get a paid shoot, everyone has been thrilled. A lot of people say f/1.2 is not practical for portraits because of the shallow depth of field. I don't believe that to be true at all. Distance to subject makes all the difference.

The last photo is also f/1.2, but with a 6-stop ND @ 1/60 sec. I didn't have a 3 stop ND for that lens at the time.


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## Viggo (Jun 22, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Could you explain that, I find it hard to understand what you shoot where 1/8000 is a regular requirement.


I’m regularly over 1/4000s , shooting wide open both without strobes and especially with when you want to underexposed background. I could have used 1/16.000 also...


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## Besisika (Jun 22, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> The last photo is also f/1.2, but with a 6-stop ND @ 1/60 sec. I didn't have a 3 stop ND for that lens at the time.


Nicely done! Nice set.


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## Twinix (Jun 22, 2020)

Th0msky said:


> I'm a videographer and I am going to buy the R6 for video. I'm not interested in the photography side whatsoever. So for me, I want to shoot outside with my fastest apertures possible (like f1.4-4) and I very likely will have to use ND filters in those cases in order to keep right exposure.


Yes, and I did not say anything about photographing.


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 22, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Since I don't use Canon Speedlites, but use Flashpoint gear, the flash power isn't reported in exif for me to tell you the exact power I used. That would depend upon the position of the sun, brightness of the sun, and time of day, and how much diffusion I use (single, double, or triple or none). Usually I am using a large parabolic with a focusing rod that I can use to move the flash further into or out of the parabolic to focus the light on the model. I should probably start logging the flash settings for the shots when I do it and eliminate the trial and error. Usually though, it will vary from 1/4-1/2 power (usually double diffused or single diffused) and the model is always very close to the modifier (3-5 ft). Sometimes it is a single 600ws monolight in a single modifier, sometimes I'm using a 600 ws in one modifier and then dual 200ws lights in another modifier. Unfortunately, I only get to practice 3-4 times a year and this year has been terrible for doing anything at all thanks to the pandemic. I also rarely do anything in the winter. I doubt I'll be shooting anyone other than my grandson this year.
> 
> What I will do is underexpose the ambient and then light the model. I do everything in manual, no TTL because it doesn't allow me the control I want.
> 
> ...


It is interesting learning about flash and modelling. As someone who would rather chew on broken glass than photograph humans it is so out of my field but i am always impressed with those who master it


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## Fischer (Jun 22, 2020)

Stig Nygaard said:


> Except the smartphone solution works like shit. At least that's my experience so far. It works better with an external gps-device and synchronize geolocation in post-processing even though it is extra work in an already too time-consuming post-process and feels like going 6-8 years back in time to before I purchased the EOS 7DII and Powershot S100 :-/ ...
> My new experience is from G5XII and EOS 90D (I'm going to sell the 90D again).


With Lightroom and a smartphone its easy peasy. Biggest risk is to forget to turn the app on. But you can also forget to turn the gps on the camera,...


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## koenkooi (Jun 22, 2020)

Fischer said:


> With Lightroom and a smartphone its easy peasy. Biggest risk is to forget to turn the app on. But you can also forget to turn the gps on the camera,...



The issue I'm running into is that either the app or camera gets stuck and 'sticks' to an old position. So it will tag photos with a position from hours ago. I wish it would just fail to tag them, that would make clean up afterwards a lot easier.

I still have the best luck when attaching the GP-E2, I hope the R5 keep supporting that.


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## Fischer (Jun 22, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> The issue I'm running into is that either the app or camera gets stuck and 'sticks' to an old position. So it will tag photos with a position from hours ago. I wish it would just fail to tag them, that would make clean up afterwards a lot easier.
> 
> I still have the best luck when attaching the GP-E2, I hope the R5 keep supporting that.


I don't let the app connect to the camera. I sync the time on the camera to match the iphone and the app records my gps position every minute. Afterwards I import the timestamps to Lightroom. That works.


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## koenkooi (Jun 22, 2020)

Fischer said:


> I don't let the app connect to the camera. I sync the time on the camera to match the iphone and the app records my gps position every minute. Afterwards I import the timestamps to Lightroom. That works.



That's what I do for the non-bluetooth Canon cameras as well, it works great. I wish Lightroom would allow you to use the "Automatically tag photos" option to *re*tag photos where something went wrong.


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## Ozarker (Jun 22, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> It is interesting learning about flash and modelling. As someone who would rather chew on broken glass than photograph humans it is so out of my field but i am always impressed with those who master it


While I would like to master it, I am just a hack. It takes me a lot of trial and error. I might take 30-40 photos to get 5 or 6 I like. I don't get much opportunity these days. This year will be a wash.

I understand what you mean about photographing people sometimes. I am very intimidated by it as I am not the most social of persons. I really like people, I just have difficulty feeling comfortable with the interactions. I fell in love with portraits when living in the Mojave desert as a way to add some color and interest to my shots.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 22, 2020)

criscokkat said:


> Everyone's predicting a much higher price for this compared to the 6D Mk II, and I don't think that will be the case. The leaked R5 pricing shows everyone's thoughts on that being significantly more than the 5dMk4 didn't pan out, and I think people are off on this one too.
> 
> I think they will be aggressive. I suspect 2499 is the high end kit, with the 24-105mm f4. The 24-240 at 2199 and the 24-105 f4-71 at 1899. (body only at 1699, so the low end kit is half price for lens).
> 
> The reason I think they will keep it aggressive: This entices people to buy into a new ecosystem of lenses. The prices above are roughly 100 more than the 6d MKII's initial MSRP. The R5 pricing looks to be the same as the 5d MkIV. People are desperate for a sony like mirrorless solution that is combined with Canon color and Canon Lenses. I suspect that once the initial rush is over with, the street price will drop another 100-200 to be competitive, because Canon wants to get these cameras in as many hands as possible. The market that buys the r5 and r6 are the same people who drive most of their lens sales. Very few of these people already have RF lenses, so they will be buying new lenses at an increased clip compared to people who buy a new d5 body just to put old lenses on. The RP and R will drop in price (again) as well. The RP in particular will be in the same spot that the rebel series used to be. I expect the rp + 24-240 to be in a lot of big box stores this Christmas for 1199 or so. They can continue cranking out the sensor for that at a much higher profit, as the initial run has already paid for the development. People have seen Apple make a lot of money just keeping old production lines going for cheaper price points. Other companies are seeing the advantages of this now too.



U.S Dollars? Euros? British Pounds? Rubles? Pesos? Franks? Rands? Australian Dollars? Canadian Dollars?


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## Michael Clark (Jun 22, 2020)

bergstrom said:


> 20MP is lame though.



Yeah, there are currently 84 pages of lame image after lame image from the 1D X Mark III at this thread.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 22, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> This list is just a pre-order list that I will fine tune based on reviews during the period of pre-order to ship. It is easier to get on the list up front rather than see a positive review and want to change your pre-order. I am hoping to have a two week trip to GTNP/YNP in late September/early October and would like to have the gear available for the trip. In wildlife photography you shoot in a wide variety of situations, environment and lighting that push the gear requirement. If possible, I will always choose a zoom combination over primes for the versatility IF I can get the IQ, low light performance & reach required for the shot. I shoot the 200-400 w/1.4 integrated TC (f5.6 @560mm) when using a tripod and the 100-400 II + 1.4x TC when I need something handheld. Because the 100-400 is a f5.6 a and f8 with the TC it is slow but workable for handheld shooting in dim conditions. Since the 100-500 is F7.1 + 1.4x tC will be f10, the 800mm becomes a reasonable option @ f11. I don't see any situations other than high noon on a bright sunny day when I would even consider using the 800mm + 1.4x. This is especially true when you consider the lack of separation you will have based on DOF @f16. My bet is that my choice will be the 100-500 + 1.4x TC over the 800mm, but I won't know until I see the reviews OR have it in my has to test. If I don't like it, I will return to the vendor within the return policy.
> 
> I wouldn't place any bets on a non-L prime being shaper than an L zoom until I saw the tests, UNLESS it is something like the EF 400mm f4 DO IS II @ $6k plus. You are probably correct on lighter weight based on the experience with the 400 DO. In addition, I might eliminate the TC but the 100-500 is a much more versatile / usable lens than the 800mm. If I had to choose only 1 lens of the 2, it would be the 100-500 + 1.4x TC unless I was a full time birder. There is also the issue of the [email protected] f11 for birders shooting in forest conditions. I did't do all of the math, but I would only need to crop the R5 + 100-500mm image 18-20% to equal the FOV of the 800mm. With 40-45 mp, that would still leave a 30mp file.



Cropping a 500mm shot to equal an 800mm shot will reduce both the width and height by 38%. The resolution of such a crop from a 45MP sensor will be a around 18MP. You're taking 62% of 62% when talking about area.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 22, 2020)

Etienne said:


> I'm glad I held off with my jump to mirrorless into Sony A7 system, or R ( EOS-M bodies don't count).
> This is looking great, better than I expected from Canon. I hope it is real. The R6 looks like it will be best for me, although I may miss the high res photos that I'd get from the R5 once in a while, and build quality.
> Build quality is the main concern from R6 specs. I hope it is weather sealed and tough



None of these cameras (R5, R6, 1D X Mark III, etc.) are "weather sealed". Canon is very careful to refer to certain parts of their construction as "weather sealing", but they never use the term "sealed".

Look at the official Canon description for the 1D X Mark III's weather and dust resistance:

"Designed for use in a variety of weather conditions, the EOS-1D X Mark III camera has sealing materials that are used in critical areas like the buttons, terminal covers, the battery compartment and the card slot cover. Precise design and construction help to minimize accidental insertion of dust and moisture in the rest of the camera body. The EOS-1D X Mark III camera proves to be a reliable partner in virtually any climate."

Notice that they say these materials and construction _"... help to minimize accidental insertion of dust and moisture..."_ in _"... virtually any climate."_ What they *don't* say is, "These materials and construction _eliminate_ insertion of dust and moisture in _any_ climate."

They NEVER use the word "proof" in conjunction with the words "dust" and "weather". I also do not recall them ever claiming any ILC or lens is "sealed", only that the are made with "weather sealing" materials at specific openings and may be "more dust and weather resistant" than other products.

As Uncle Roger often says:

*"Weather resistant* – _A term that consumers falsely define as ‘weatherproof’ and camera companies accurately define as ‘the warranty doesn’t cover water damage_’. "


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## criscokkat (Jun 22, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> U.S Dollars? Euros? British Pounds? Rubles? Pesos? Franks? Rands? Australian Dollars? Canadian Dollars?


American Dollars. Sorry for the US-centricity.


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## cdcooker (Jun 22, 2020)

miketcool said:


> They both better have intervalometers along with a firmware upgrade that gives the EOS R this functionality.


Yes yes yes! I share exactly the same thoughts as you in here.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 22, 2020)

PeterParker said:


> Suddenly very interested in the R6. The big question for me is "identical AF" -- will the R6 have an identical processor to the R5? I could live with 20MP quite comfortably if I could get 1DXIII live view-esque AF in an ~$2,500 USD package.



Unfortunately, it seems to me that if the R6 has "identical AF" as the R5, that argues that the R5 will not have AF as good as the 1D X Mark III has in Live View.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 22, 2020)

spomeniks said:


> I agree with you! But my statement was about what people _prefer_. People (online, at least) have gotten so mad about cameras that use more expensive CFexpress media instead of SD - and they don't look at what the benefits of an Express bus are offering them.. they just see price. I totally expect that the fact the R6 has two SD slots over the mixed media option of the R5 will be a selling point to many people, those who don't want to pay for the extra performance of CFexpress.



Yet the fastest UHS II SD cards are not much, if any, cheaper than their CFExpress counterparts of the same amount of storage. But the fastest UHS II cards are slower than even pedestrian CFExpress cards...

From a cost perspective, an SD card bus is only more attractive if one does not mind using cheaper, slower UHS I SD cards and taking the performance hit in terms of camera speed that doing so entails.


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## Deleted member 378664 (Jun 22, 2020)

Fischer said:


> I don't let the app connect to the camera. I sync the time on the camera to match the iphone and the app records my gps position every minute. Afterwards I import the timestamps to Lightroom. That works.


Just in case you did not know:
An easy way to sync the time of camera and phone is just to take a photo of the phone screen with the phone time displayed. As result one gets a photo which has the camera time in the EXIF data and the phone time in the picture itself.
the difference between both times can be used in LR to match the GPS data track from the phone with the pictures taken at these GPS positions.

Frank


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## Michael Clark (Jun 22, 2020)

navastronia said:


> DCI 4K is about 8.8mp, so if PhotonShark's math is correct, and EF-S lenses mounted on a 20mp body only have access to 7.8mp, then 4K would not be possible without the camera interpolating some data to make up for lacking resolution. Even 4K UHD (16:9 aspect ratio) requires 8.3mp.



You've also got to consider that the 7.8MP is 3:2 ratio, not 16:9, so you'll lose even more when changing the aspect ratio. To get 8.8MP at 16:9, you need about 10.5 MP with 3:2.


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## cellomaster27 (Jun 22, 2020)

this camera is surprising!! actually would be very happy with this camera instead of the R5!! Canon has really stepped up!! :O speaking of which.. haven't heard much from my Sony friends. XD


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## Ozarker (Jun 22, 2020)

Besisika said:


> Nicely done! Nice set.


Thank you. Just a hobby for me.


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## stevelee (Jun 22, 2020)

I like having the time to be correct on all my devices without regard to any other use. That is a reason I keep GPS turned on in my 6D2 even when I stay within a short walk of home. I like now having GPS in my car, since it sets the time as well as the other functions it serves. Oddly, the G5X II does not have home and travel times, so you have to switch time zones when traveling, rather than just switching between home and away. I did wind up with two different creation times an hour apart in the metadata of shots in Europe. I never figured out why. The earlier one turned out to be correct, when I coordinated with something I had shot with the phone.


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## SteveC (Jun 22, 2020)

Last time I took a major trip, I had one camera off by a day, the other off by an hour and 15 minutes (got DST mixed up and it had fallen behind 15 minutes). And not realizing they were BOTH wrong for "at home" I left them that way figuring I could just add 14 hours for the timezone. Whoops. Well, I did figure it out when I got back!

Reminder to self to check camera clocks before departing on ANY major trip!


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## privatebydesign (Jun 22, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Since I don't use Canon Speedlites, but use Flashpoint gear, the flash power isn't reported in exif for me to tell you the exact power I used. That would depend upon the position of the sun, brightness of the sun, and time of day, and how much diffusion I use (single, double, or triple or none). Usually I am using a large parabolic with a focusing rod that I can use to move the flash further into or out of the parabolic to focus the light on the model. I should probably start logging the flash settings for the shots when I do it and eliminate the trial and error. Usually though, it will vary from 1/4-1/2 power (usually double diffused or single diffused) and the model is always very close to the modifier (3-5 ft). Sometimes it is a single 600ws monolight in a single modifier, sometimes I'm using a 600 ws in one modifier and then dual 200ws lights in another modifier. Unfortunately, I only get to practice 3-4 times a year and this year has been terrible for doing anything at all thanks to the pandemic. I also rarely do anything in the winter. I doubt I'll be shooting anyone other than my grandson this year.
> 
> What I will do is underexpose the ambient and then light the model. I do everything in manual, no TTL because it doesn't allow me the control I want.
> 
> ...


At 1/8000 sec the Flashpoint 600 is down to 1/128th power even without HSS, or the seven stops I mentioned!

Of course I have never said there is no use for shutter speeds over 1/4,000, just that it is a relatively limited _need_, indeed I can only think of one style of photography that demands it, underexposed ambient with narrow depth of field and HSS/HS flash, and both you and Vigo know I use that on occasions. Having said that there are other ways to achieve the same thing, like ND filters etc, heck it wasn't that long ago that there were no HSS flashes powerful enough nor fast enough discharge to underexpose the ambient at those shutter speeds and we had to use ND filters.


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## Ozarker (Jun 22, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> At 1/8000 sec the Flashpoint 600 is down to 1/128th power even without HSS, or the seven stops I mentioned!
> 
> Of course I have never said there is no use for shutter speeds over 1/4,000, just that it is a relatively limited _need_, indeed I can only think of one style of photography that demands it, underexposed ambient with narrow depth of field and HSS/HS flash, and both you and Vigo know I use that on occasions. Having said that there are other ways to achieve the same thing, like ND filters etc, heck it wasn't that long ago that there were no HSS flashes powerful enough nor fast enough discharge to underexpose the ambient at those shutter speeds and we had to use ND filters.


Well, I never took the power that low. All I know is what I do. I don't know the technicalities or how you are getting your calculation. I use the following as a rough guide, but it is only good down to f/1.4. Gets me close most of the time, depending on how I diffuse or don't diffuse or whether or not I use an ND or how much I underexpose the ambient or how far the modifier is from the subject or where the flash focusing rod is positioned. Of course, as you say, there are many different ways to do it. You were just wondering when people use it and how. I think I provided when I do. I am not disagreeing with you at all. I hope I have not given that impression. You are far more experienced than I. I get out to do this a few times a year and just do what works for me. I'm not asking you to like how I do it. I do it for me.


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## stevelee (Jun 23, 2020)

I can’t imagine a situation where I would need or want to use 1/8000 second. That is something I never missed having on my cameras. I would not be surprised if I had never used 1/4000. Maybe I tried that on a hummingbird one time.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 23, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I don't know the technicalities or how you are getting your calculation.


Think of a flash as turning on a faucet, the longer you turn it on the more light you get though unlike a faucet flashes turn on and off very quickly. So when you adjust the power what you are actually doing is changing the amount of time the flash is on for, less power obviously means less time, at 1/8,000 of a second the Flashpoint 600 can only output less than 1/128 of its power the rest of the flash light falls before and after the shutters have opened or closed.

This is a big oversimplification because it isn't allowing for HSS which flashes the light continuously very very quickly, this means the light is off a percentage of the time and is the reason going from sync speed to HSS always costs 'power'. Moving to HSS normally costs 1-2.5 stops of light.

The important point is even when your Flashpoint 600 is turned on at full power at 1/8,000 sec shutter speed it only has the time to deliver less than 1/128 of its total output power.

Further, I am not judging you at all, I praise you for getting out there and doing it even if it isn't as often as you'd like, but obviously having a bit more understanding of how its all working will help your technique grow. I have commented before on how much I like some of Viggo's images, and yours, and I see you pushing a similar technique but very different style and it is one I have posted examples of before too.

But yet again, my original question was a simple one for ryebread, what is it that he shoots that requires 1/8,000 or the camera isn't worth buying?


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## SteveC (Jun 23, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> So when you adjust the power what you are actually doing is changing the amount of time the flash is on for, less power obviously means less time, at 1/8,000 of a second the Flashpoint 600 can only output less than 1/128 of its power the rest of the flash light falls before and after the shutters have opened or closed.



So it's lying to you, then, in calling it "power." The _power_ is constant (well, other than the difference between "on" and "off"), the amount of _energy,_ delivered as a reaaaally bright light, increases because the time increases. (Energy=power x time, or alternatively, power is the _rate_ of the delivery or use of energy, the rate remains the same with this flash, the duration changes.)

If CanonFanBoy ever took physics I can understand his confusion; what's called power, _isn't_.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 23, 2020)

Here is a screenshot of the Flashpoint 600 at 1/128 power with a t0.1 time of 1/7,462.


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## SecureGSM (Jun 23, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Think of a flash as turning on a faucet, the longer you turn it on the more light you get though unlike a faucet flashes turn on and off very quickly. So when you adjust the power what you are actually doing is changing the amount of time the flash is on for, less power obviously means less time, at 1/8,000 of a second the Flashpoint 600 can only output less than 1/128 of its power the rest of the flash light falls before and after the shutters have opened or closed.
> 
> This is a big oversimplification because it isn't allowing for HSS which flashes the light continuously very very quickly, this means the light is off a percentage of the time and is the reason going from sync speed to HSS always costs 'power'. Moving to HSS normally costs 1-2.5 stops of light.
> 
> ...


++++ Moving to HSS normally costs 1-2.5 stops of light.

A.M. if not 3 stops in real life.

it is worth for me to use a 1 or 2 stops ND filter Instead in order to bring shutter speed within the X-Sync range rather than have flash firing in HSS.
another point is that my light meter is useless in HSS mode so...


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## Danglin52 (Jun 23, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Cropping a 500mm shot to equal an 800mm shot will reduce both the width and height by 38%. The resolution of such a crop from a 45MP sensor will be a around 18MP. You're taking 62% of 62% when talking about area.


Sorry, when I was referencing the 100-500 and cropping to get a FOV I meant to reference the 600mm not the 800mm. I think it is reasonable to crop a 500mm shot to a 600mm equivalent FOV. You are correct point out my error using 800mm. Basically I wouldn't buy the 600mm because it is too close in each to the 100-500. Better to invest in the 800mm


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## Fischer (Jun 23, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Last time I took a major trip, I had one camera off by a day, the other off by an hour and 15 minutes (got DST mixed up and it had fallen behind 15 minutes). And not realizing they were BOTH wrong for "at home" I left them that way figuring I could just add 14 hours for the timezone. Whoops. Well, I did figure it out when I got back!
> 
> Reminder to self to check camera clocks before departing on ANY major trip!


Travel a lot around the world and am really surprised that the internal camera clock is so "off" time relatively quickly. My electric tooth brush keeps the time better... (Great tip above about taking a shot of your mobile time btw - so simple a solution)


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## privatebydesign (Jun 23, 2020)

SteveC said:


> So it's lying to you, then, in calling it "power." The _power_ is constant (well, other than the difference between "on" and "off"), the amount of _energy,_ delivered as a reaaaally bright light, increases because the time increases. (Energy=power x time, or alternatively, power is the _rate_ of the delivery or use of energy, the rate remains the same with this flash, the duration changes.)
> 
> If CanonFanBoy ever took physics I can understand his confusion; what's called power, _isn't_.


Absolutely correct, and that is why all 'studio' flashes (strobes to us old-timers) have their output rated in W s, Watt seconds, although even that doesn't allow for beam pattern differences so isn't a good measure of how much light you can get on any given subject, it's just a good way of comparing one strobe output to another. It seems all speedlights are measured in guide numbers which also isn't very intuitive nor easy to translate when you take zoom heads into account. Fortunately nobody actually does flash calculations anymore, nor polaroids, so we can leave the working out to chimping or ETTL.


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## Twinix (Jun 23, 2020)

Hopefully the R6 (and R5 ofc) will be able to output clean hdmi for as long as I want to (of course external power). No record limit would also be amazing.


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## Kit. (Jun 23, 2020)

SteveC said:


> So it's lying to you, then, in calling it "power." The _power_ is constant (well, other than the difference between "on" and "off"), the amount of _energy,_ delivered as a reaaaally bright light, increases because the time increases. (Energy=power x time, or alternatively, power is the _rate_ of the delivery or use of energy, the rate remains the same with this flash, the duration changes.)


It's a bit more complicated in normal mode and completely different in HSS mode.

In HSS mode, the flash is acting as a "constant" light source in one long pulse for the whole time of shutter curtains travel (slightly longer than the X-sync speed; it's lying to you about "1/8000s"), with power being constant _during the pulse_, but configurable for the pulse. If this power provides illuminance on the subject comparable to illuminance from the Sun, the flash can be used as a daylight fill flash no matter how fast the shutter is(*).

*) Being pedantic, the faster the shutter, the (slightly) less time the pulse needs to last, the (slightly) more power the flash could provide for the same energy of the pulse.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 23, 2020)

Kit. said:


> It's a bit more complicated in normal mode and completely different in HSS mode.
> 
> In HSS mode, the flash is acting as a "constant" light source in one long pulse for the whole time of shutter curtains travel (slightly longer than the X-sync speed; it's lying to you about "1/8000s"), with power being constant _during the pulse_, but configurable for the pulse. If this power provides illuminance on the subject comparable to illuminance from the Sun, the flash can be used as a daylight fill flash no matter how fast the shutter is(*).
> 
> *) Being pedantic, the faster the shutter, the (slightly) less time the pulse needs to last, the (slightly) more power the flash could provide for the same energy of the pulse.


Don’t confuse HSS with HS/Hypersync/Hi-Sync you are conflating the two types and they are very different. Also HSS and regular IGBT strobes and flashes control the output by shortening the duration the flash tube is energized, or in the case of HSS how rapidly the tube pulses. I believe HS/Hypersync/Hi-Sync do all work by varying the energy provided to the tube.

this link gives the best graphics I have seen to explain the difference between HSS and HS/Hypersync









HS - HSS? WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?


HyperSync, HSS, Hi-Sync, all these flash techniques are misunderstood. Let’s overview these technics to shoot at shutter speeds higher than the standard flash sync speed of DSLR cameras.




www.elinchrom.com


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## Kit. (Jun 23, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Don’t confuse HSS with HS/Hypersync, you are conflating the two and they are very different. Also HSS and regular IGBT strobes and flashes control the output by shortening the duration the flash tube is energized, or in the case of HSS how rapidly the tube pulses.


Don't adjustable-power LED sources do the same?

Averaged over 1/8000 s it looks like a constant intensity light source with adjustable power, otherwise HSS wouldn't work.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 23, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Don't adjustable-power LED sources do the same?
> 
> Averaged over 1/8000 s it looks like a constant intensity light source with adjustable power, otherwise HSS wouldn't work.



I understood that in HSS the output by varied by reducing the flash frequency not the light output per pulse, but I can’t find a link to confirm that so I don’t know where I read it. HS/Hypersync/Hi-Sync only have one flash pulse over sync speed so the only way to vary the output is to lower the power to that one flash, you can’t shorten the duration as with a single pulse sub sync speed flash which is how IGBT circuits work.

i suppose in HSS they could shorten the duration of each pulse rather than change the number of pulses.


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## smr (Jun 23, 2020)

As the R6 is purportedly going to have the same sensor as the 1DXIII I've just been reading about the sensor... some interesting sounding stuff...

"Тhе еvеr-іmрrоvіng hіgh іmаgе quаlіtу іn thе ЕОЅ-1D Х rаngе іѕ оwеd tо thе ѕіnglе DІGІС Х Іmаgе Рrосеѕѕоr, Gаuѕѕіаn Lоw Раѕѕ Fіltеr, аnd thе НЕІF Іmаgе Fоrmаt аlоng wіth оthеr fеаturеѕ. Тhе ехtrеmеlу fаѕt аnd еffісіеnt DІGІС Х Іmаgе Рrосеѕѕоr іѕ іn сhаrgе оf thе саmеrа’ѕ оutѕtаndіng іmаgе quаlіtу аnd rеѕроnѕіvе реrfоrmаnсе. 

Тhе lаttеr іѕ сhаrасtеrіѕеd bу 20fрѕ соntіnuоuѕ сарturе 4К/60р оvеrѕаmрlеd vіdео. Тhе рrосеѕѕоr еnѕurеѕ іnсrеdіblу lоw lеvеlѕ оf nоіѕе whеn wоrkіng аt а hіgh ІЅО, іn аddіtіоn tо еnаblіng grеаtеr DLО, АLО, аnd Ніghlіght Тоnе Рrіоrіtу.

Тhе Gаuѕѕіаn Lоw Раѕѕ Fіltеr wоrkѕ bу ѕаmрlіng lіght оvеr а lаrgеr numbеr оf ріхеlѕ whеn соmраrеd tо а соnvеntіоnаl lоw раѕѕ fіltеr. Тhіѕ mеаnѕ thаt fіnе ѕhаrрnеѕѕ аnd сlаrіtу оf thе іmаgе аrе рrеѕеrvеd whіlе орtісаl іѕѕuеѕ ѕuсh аѕ mоіrе аrе mіnіmіѕеd. Fіnаllу, thе НЕІF Іmаgе Fоrmаt; аlѕо knоwn аѕ thе Ніgh Еffісіеnсу Іmаgе Fіlе; іѕ thе nехt-gеn оf fіlе fоrmаtѕ - grеаt nеwѕ fоr dіgіtаl рhоtоgrарhеrѕ. 

Іt аllоwѕ fоr а hіghеr іmаgе quаlіtу wіthоut thе іnсrеаѕе іn fіlе ѕіzе, аѕ орроѕеd tо ЈРЕGѕ. НЕІF fіlеѕ оffеr а ѕmаllеr аmоunt оf аrtеfасtѕ аnd аn аmрlіfіеd dуnаmіс rаngе fеаturіng 10-bіt соlоur dерth."


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## Kit. (Jun 23, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I understood that in HSS the output by varied by reducing the flash frequency not the light output per pulse, but I can’t find a link to confirm that so I don’t know where I read it. HS/Hypersync/Hi-Sync only have one flash pulse over sync speed so the only way to vary the output is to lower the power to that one flash, you can’t shorten the duration as with a single pulse sub sync speed flash which is how IGBT circuits work.
> 
> i suppose in HSS they could shorten the duration of each pulse rather than change the number of pulses.


That's how Canon describes it:


> *HSS changes the way your Speedlite fires*
> 
> In normal flash mode, your Speedlite fires as a single pulse of light. In HSS, the Speedlite turns into an ultra-fast strobe light that turns on and off up to 35,000 times per second. The staccato of light is so fast that the Speedlite effectively becomes a continuous light source for the brief duration of the exposure – this enables virtually any shutter speed to be utilised with flash.


35kHz doesn't look like a safe enough high limit if they only control the duty cycle by changing the frequency of pulses.


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## Etienne (Jun 23, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> None of these cameras (R5, R6, 1D X Mark III, etc.) are "weather sealed". Canon is very careful to refer to certain parts of their construction as "weather sealing", but they never use the term "sealed".
> 
> Look at the official Canon description for the 1D X Mark III's weather and dust resistance:
> 
> ...



Good point, but many years ago I used my 5D3 with 70-200 f/2.8L IS in a strong rain in Florence, Italy, for almost an hour. When I got back to the apartment I wiped it off, and let it sit overnight to dry out before opening anything, and the camera and lens were perfectly fine. I've used that that same camera with an L lens attached in may other wet conditions for almost four years without problem as well. 

I agree with you, but their "weather-resistance" is actually pretty good.


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## Jack Douglas (Jun 23, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Don’t confuse HSS with HS/Hypersync/Hi-Sync you are conflating the two types and they are very different. Also HSS and regular IGBT strobes and flashes control the output by shortening the duration the flash tube is energized, or in the case of HSS how rapidly the tube pulses. I believe HS/Hypersync/Hi-Sync do all work by varying the energy provided to the tube.
> 
> this link gives the best graphics I have seen to explain the difference between HSS and HS/Hypersync
> 
> http://[URL]https://www.elinchrom.com/learn/hss-hs.html[/URL]


Thanks for the link. I shall be getting educated.

Jack


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## briangus (Jun 23, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> None of these cameras (R5, R6, 1D X Mark III, etc.) are "weather sealed". Canon is very careful to refer to certain parts of their construction as "weather sealing", but they never use the term "sealed".
> 
> Look at the official Canon description for the 1D X Mark III's weather and dust resistance:
> 
> ...



When I first encountered this site I was quite bemused by this weather sealing and what it actually meant.
I actually thought that Canon had released a Nikonos equivalent due to some of the claims.

People are still making comparisons of how "weather sealed" one camera is to another when there seems to be no set of standards to compare.

Unfortunately the internet doesn't help as some sites seem to infer that these newer cameras can withstand any type of inclement weather.
One site rates the EOS R as "Weather sealed like crazy"
When it rains down this way I am somewhere safe and dry and so are my cameras


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## Michael Clark (Jun 23, 2020)

Etienne said:


> Good point, but many years ago I used my 5D3 with 70-200 f/2.8L IS in a strong rain in Florence, Italy, for almost an hour. When I got back to the apartment I wiped it off, and let it sit overnight to dry out before opening anything, and the camera and lens were perfectly fine. I've used that that same camera with an L lens attached in may other wet conditions for almost four years without problem as well.
> 
> I agree with you, but their "weather-resistance" is actually pretty good.






briangus said:


> When I first encountered this site I was quite bemused by this weather sealing and what it actually meant.
> I actually thought that Canon had released a Nikonos equivalent due to some of the claims.
> 
> People are still making comparisons of how "weather sealed" one camera is to another when there seems to be no set of standards to compare.
> ...



I've shot in plenty of rainy environments without any damage to my gear as well. Canon's weather resistance is very good in their upper tier models. But if it is pouring down rain I put the plastic covers on. Yes, they are a pain but they're insurance. My standard is that if I need a rain jacket and hat, then so does my gear. I shudder when I read people use the terms "weather proof" or even "weather sealed" when talking about cameras and lenses. I think it may give those who do not understand the subtleties a false confidence about how much water or dust or sand their gear can resist.

Again, drawing from Roger Cicala's blog at lensrentals:

Here’s a list of bad things that we’ll discuss.


Camera manufacturers market their equipment as weather resistant. But if you get water inside the camera the warranty is void. So that’s pretty much “we guarantee it will work unless it breaks.”
People think weather resistant means waterproof because they want to believe that.
Service Centers play the impact/moisture damage card so much that everyone assumes they are full of …shirt… when they say so.
There are two kinds of photographers: Those who have ruined a camera from water damage and are careful about water and see #2.
Most service centers won’t work on a water damaged camera, even if you pay them. Some won’t even open it up to look inside if they see evidence on the outside.


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## reefroamer (Jun 24, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> None of these cameras (R5, R6, 1D X Mark III, etc.) are "weather sealed". Canon is very careful to refer to certain parts of their construction as "weather sealing", but they never use the term "sealed".
> 
> Look at the official Canon description for the 1D X Mark III's weather and dust resistance:
> 
> ...


Exactly. It’s the same reason that wristwatches are all called water “resistant” these days rather than water “proof.” This is because the legal department won’t let the company make absolute claims. The lawyers review every word of marketing materials, advertising and press releases. Trust me on this. I once had to describe a desktop printer as “designed to fit on a desktop.” Notice it doesn’t say it will actually fit on a desktop, only that it was designed to do so. We used to call these “weasel words.”


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 24, 2020)

briangus said:


> When I first encountered this site I was quite bemused by this weather sealing and what it actually meant.
> I actually thought that Canon had released a Nikonos equivalent due to some of the claims.
> 
> People are still making comparisons of how "weather sealed" one camera is to another when there seems to be no set of standards to compare.
> ...


It is more a case of anecdotal evidence suggesting that canons weather sealing tends to perform better than the rest. Certainly way way better than Sony has historically performed but I imagine Nikon is damn close to Canon. None of them are perfect but some are clearly better than others


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## Viggo (Jun 24, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> At 1/8000 and iso 50 how much flash power do you think you are getting? You are minimum of five stops down from full power but most HSS flashes are going to lose another couple of stops on top of that. A reflector would be much more effective and powerful and a darn sight cheaper.


It was no issue with the Broncolor Siros 800 L. It uses HS, which much more flashes should use, and it was 800Ws, so even at 1.2 and 1/8000s I had a two-three stops away from full power. Meaning it sometimes worked at 200Ws. With my old HSS enabled flashes it was max power and very close to subject, but it worked


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## Jaysheldon (Jun 24, 2020)

What I'm dreaming of is an R6/IBIS with my EF 400mm 5.6 and EF 200 f2.8 for sports, wildlife


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## Michael Clark (Jun 24, 2020)

The elephant in the room regarding HSS is that no matter what the shutter duration is, the curtain transit times are the same for a given camera. For the top tier DSLRs that's around 2.5 milliseconds, or 1/400 second. Entry level digital cameras used to be in the 4-5 ms (1/250-1/200) range but lately seem to be closer to around 3-4 ms. Everything else is in between. I know not how much faster, if any, the transit times will need to be for the 20 fps (mechanical shutter) cameras currently emerging in the market.

Keep in mind that for normal flash sync, both curtains must remain open long enough for flash signalling and flash duration to occur. So even if a camera has a transit time of 2.5ms (1/400), the second curtain can not begin to close immediately after the first curtain is fully open. It must wait until the "fire" signal has been sent and the flash has had time to release its energy, or at least 90% of it for a t.1 exposure. For speedlights, that's typically at least as long as the shutter curtain transit time. _Speedlights_ are so named because they can reach T.1 so quickly. Many monolights tend to take much longer for a full power pulse to reach T.1 (mostly because they are releasing much more power than a typical speedlight), and that's why we often need to reduce Tv to well below the X-Sync for the camera to get the full benefit of a studio flash.

At 20 fps with a 2.5 ms shutter transit time in mirrorless/LV shooting there's still 47.5 ms less the exposure time (another 0.125ms for 1/8000, another 0.25ms for 1/4000, 0.5ms for 1/2000, 1 ms for 1/1000, and so on) available in each frame's 1/20 second (50ms) to reset the second shutter curtain which uncovers the sensor, do AF/metering, and then reset the first curtain to cover the sensor. With an OVF it probably gets a bit more difficult to drop the mirror, give it time to stop bouncing, do AF/metering, raise the mirror, give it time to stop bouncing, and confirm it is up in only 46-47.5 ms. If one looks at super slow-mo videos of DSLRs at 1/8000, it's pretty clear the shutter curtains wait until the mirror is almost all the way back down to begin resetting and they complete the reset before the mirror hits bottom and stops bouncing.

HSS is supposed to time the pulses of the flash so that as the slit between curtains moves across the sensor, each part of the sensor gets an equal number of pulses. Thus the timing of the pulses needs to be variable to accommodate different shutter speeds/slit widths or needs to be so fast that it is pulsing at least at the lowest common multiple of all of the available exposure times/slit widths in ms, which I imagine would be astronomically high if one assumes 1/3 stop Tv intervals are allowed.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 24, 2020)

briangus said:


> When I first encountered this site I was quite bemused by this weather sealing and what it actually meant.
> I actually thought that Canon had released a Nikonos equivalent due to some of the claims.
> 
> People are still making comparisons of how "weather sealed" one camera is to another when there seems to be no set of standards to compare.
> ...



When a review site's standard is the weather resistance of the early Sony α7-series, any Canon camera is "weather sealed like crazy!"


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## unfocused (Jun 24, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> Exactly. It’s the same reason that wristwatches are all called water “resistant” these days rather than water “proof.” This is because the legal department won’t let the company make absolute claims. The lawyers review every word of marketing materials, advertising and press releases. Trust me on this. I once had to describe a desktop printer as “designed to fit on a desktop.” Notice it doesn’t say it will actually fit on a desktop, only that it was designed to do so. We used to call these “weasel words.”


There are good reasons for that. The entire trial lawyer industry is made up of people who earn their living suing companies, often for mishaps that result from idiots doing stupid things. There once was a time, when if someone made a mistake and something unfortunate happened, you lived with the consequences. These days, no one is expected to live with the consequences of their own stupidity. That's why we have baby strollers with warnings like "do not fold stroller with child inside." 

I remember a few years ago on this very site, some dummy took his brand new 6D out in a boat in a middle of rainstorm and was shocked when it quit working because it was "weather sealed."


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## usern4cr (Jun 24, 2020)

It's interesting to hear of "weather sealed/sealing" claims by various manufacturers. The reality is that some are incredible, most are adequate if you don't keep them in continuous rain, and some are downright lying.

I have an Olympus EM1mark2 and pro lenses. If you bet me some big money if I dunked it with lens into a toilet or swimming pool and it'd still work fine, I'd take your bet and it'd be fine. They're one of the few(maybe only) than went truly overboard in weather sealing. Too bad the sensor is so small and so old (even in the mark3). *Edit* Well, going out of business doesn't bode too well for them either. 

Sony is the opposite. From what I've read, they often don't even have a rubber seal around the lens mount that actually touches the camera mount when connected. Their bodies have sometimes been found to let in large amounts of water at various places. 

Canon seems to have a very good reputation for sealing, and I'm very much looking forward to checking it out myself with a new R5 and some RF lenses. 

No matter what the sealing quality, I don't use the camera in the rain, period! But if I get caught in the rain before I can put it away, it's good to know it'd be safe.


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## briangus (Jun 24, 2020)

A couple of years ago i was in Phuket for Songkran/Thai New Year 
It’s celebrated by the pouring of water on folks to wash away their sins but has degenerated into a mass water pistol fight.

Normally would have taken the 6D and some primes but decided the EM5 and 12-40 would be better choice.
Smaller so would be less of a target, wouldn’t miss it if it died and it allegedly was quite well sealed.

The EM5 never took a direct hit, most of the water pistol guys seemed to be targeting women and children.
After a couple of hours the EM5 started to play up then it just stopped.
Following day was still not working so it went straight into the dry cabinet when i got home.

Left it for a day and it fired up but still unusable, so back in cabinet to dry out for longer.
I actually forgot all about it until a couple of months later, popped the battery in and away it went.

Thankfully this years celebrations were cancelled


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## stevelee (Jun 24, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> No matter what the sealing quality, I don't use the camera in the rain, period! But if I get caught in the rain before I can put it away, it's good to know it'd be safe.



If it is raining, I don't go out taking pictures. That is not out of concern for the camera.


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## Dpickup (Jun 25, 2020)

smr said:


> As the R6 is purportedly going to have the same sensor as the 1DXIII I've just been reading about the sensor... some interesting sounding stuff...
> 
> "Тhе еvеr-іmрrоvіng hіgh іmаgе quаlіtу іn thе ЕОЅ-1D Х rаngе іѕ оwеd tо thе ѕіnglе DІGІС Х Іmаgе Рrосеѕѕоr, Gаuѕѕіаn Lоw Раѕѕ Fіltеr, аnd thе НЕІF Іmаgе Fоrmаt аlоng wіth оthеr fеаturеѕ. Тhе ехtrеmеlу fаѕt аnd еffісіеnt DІGІС Х Іmаgе Рrосеѕѕоr іѕ іn сhаrgе оf thе саmеrа’ѕ оutѕtаndіng іmаgе quаlіtу аnd rеѕроnѕіvе реrfоrmаnсе.
> 
> ...


I'm confused, why use the 1DXIII sensor not the RP sensor ?
arguably one was designed for an SLR and the other for Mirrorless.....


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## koenkooi (Jun 25, 2020)

Dpickup said:


> I'm confused, why use the 1DXIII sensor not the RP sensor ?
> arguably one was designed for an SLR and the other for Mirrorless.....



LOL, the RP sensor is the 6D2 sensor with new microlenses. It also is one of the old, slow sensors. As we can see from the 32MP M6II, it's not the Digic 8 holding back performance on the R and RP, it's the sensor.

FWIW, on this forum 'sensor' tends to be used for the bare sensor, Canon uses 'sensor' to describe the bare sensor + microlens array. That's why Canon can call a sensor "new!!!" with a straight face when reusing an old one.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 25, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> It's interesting to hear of "weather sealed" claims by various manufacturers. The reality is that some are incredible, most are adequate if you don't keep them in continuous rain, and some are downright lying.
> 
> I have an Olympus EM1mark2 and pro lenses. If you bet me some big money if I dunked it with lens into a toilet or swimming pool and it'd still work fine, I'd take your bet and it'd be fine. They're one of the few(maybe only) than went truly overboard in weather sealing. Too bad the sensor is so small and so old (even in the mark3).
> 
> ...



I've never seen Canon refer to an ILC as "weather sealed". They use the term "weather sealing" a lot to describe a camera's parts, but they don't ever call those cameras "weather sealed." They call their cameras "dust and weather resistant", they don't call them "dust and weather proof."


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## usern4cr (Jun 25, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I've never seen Canon refer to an ILC as "weather sealed". They use the term "weather sealing" a lot to describe a camera's parts, but they don't ever call those cameras "weather sealed." They call their cameras "dust and weather resistant", they don't call them "dust and weather proof."


I haven't paid too much attention to whether they say 'sealed' or 'sealing' as I wouldn't think there was much difference between them. I know they don't use the term 'proof' as probably all manufacturers avoid that claim. I didn't mean to imply anything negative about Canon's sealing, as I've heard that they do a good job of sealing in general. In fact, that's one (of many) reasons I'm so eager to get the R5 and start a new chapter in my photographic adventures with it.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 25, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> I haven't paid too much attention to whether they say 'sealed' or 'sealing' as I wouldn't think there was much difference between them.



I think there is a rather significant difference between saying, "This gasket is placed there to provide additional sealing", and saying, "This camera is sealed."


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## bernie_king (Jun 25, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> It's interesting to hear of "weather sealed" claims by various manufacturers. The reality is that some are incredible, most are adequate if you don't keep them in continuous rain, and some are downright lying.
> 
> I have an Olympus EM1mark2 and pro lenses. If you bet me some big money if I dunked it with lens into a toilet or swimming pool and it'd still work fine, I'd take your bet and it'd be fine. They're one of the few(maybe only) than went truly overboard in weather sealing. Too bad the sensor is so small and so old (even in the mark3). *Edit* Well, going out of business doesn't bode too well for them either.
> 
> ...


I've shot 1 Series cameras since the 1D Mk 3 and have never worried about rain. I have been caught in downpours with almost all of them with my 500 f4 and 600 f4 and had no issues. Just kept shooting. 

I was at a PGA event a few years ago on a rainy day and not only did I see the pros sitting their cameras in the mud but also cleaning them off with a garden hose. I wouldn't go that far myself (mostly because I have to pay for my own gear and I assume they don't) but the higher end cameras can certainly handle some rain.


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## usern4cr (Jun 25, 2020)

bernie_king said:


> I've shot 1 Series cameras since the 1D Mk 3 and have never worried about rain. I have been caught in downpours with almost all of them with my 500 f4 and 600 f4 and had no issues. Just kept shooting.
> 
> I was at a PGA event a few years ago on a rainy day and not only did I see the pros sitting their cameras in the mud but also cleaning them off with a garden hose. I wouldn't go that far myself (mostly because I have to pay for my own gear and I assume they don't) but the higher end cameras can certainly handle some rain.


You've seen pros cleaning the mud off their camera & lens with a garden hose?  Wow, I didn't know Canon had sealing that good for people to try and have no problems with. I've heard they were good at sealing, but that makes me even happier to get into the Canon system now. Hopefully the R5 and RF L lenses will be sealed that good!


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## brad-man (Jun 25, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> You've seen pros cleaning the mud off their camera & lens with a garden hose?  Wow, I didn't know Canon had sealing that good for people to try and have no problems with. I've heard they were good at sealing, but that makes me even happier to get into the Canon system now. Hopefully the R5 and RF L lenses will be sealed that good!


Funny how different people react to different details of a story. You're surprised they hosed off their gear, while I'm astonished that they would set it down in the mud in the first place...


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 25, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> You've seen pros cleaning the mud off their camera & lens with a garden hose?  Wow, I didn't know Canon had sealing that good for people to try and have no problems with. I've heard they were good at sealing, but that makes me even happier to get into the Canon system now. Hopefully the R5 and RF L lenses will be sealed that good!


It was only the 1d series and 7d2 that had that levelof of sealing. Not the 5series or 6 series etc.


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## bernie_king (Jun 26, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> It was only the 1d series and 7d2 that had that levelof of sealing. Not the 5series or 6 series etc.


I do not expect the R5 or R6 to be sealed that well. Heck, I wouldn't do it to my 1DX II, but like I said I have to pay for my own gear . Something's got to differentiate the top level. Seeing the specs on the R5 makes me pretty excited to see what a potential R1 will be like!


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## bernie_king (Jun 26, 2020)

brad-man said:


> Funny how different people react to different details of a story. You're surprised they hosed off their gear, while I'm astonished that they would set it down in the mud in the first place...


I was as well! Of course to them the cameras are just their tools that are paid for by their company.. and if they do break there's always a Canon tent somewhere that will replace their gear if it goes bad.


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## beketoff (Jun 27, 2020)

Have a big dillemma here now that most specs and prices are known. I have several EF L lenses and 6D (first edition) due to be upgraded. R5 is too expensive, R6 is too low resolution and no tilted screen. Plus, any R version would require EF-RF adapter for me (extra cost and bulk). Would it make sense to buy 5D mark IV in 2020? Especially considering the massive discounts now that Canon tries to offload mark iv? Could 5D mark IV sensor be at least as good or better as R6, what do you think?


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## BillB (Jun 27, 2020)

I think the R6 will have an articulated screen, pretty good video and high frames per second, but it will have only 20mp The Canon R and the 5DIV have the same 30mp sensor, and the R with an adapter with be about the same price as the 5DIV. So one big question is how you feel about wanting to be able to use RF lenses. Other questions are whether you want an articulated rear screen, good video and high FPS. The good news is you don’t have to make your mind up right away, and all of the choices look pretty good


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## Michael Clark (Jun 28, 2020)

bernie_king said:


> I've shot 1 Series cameras since the 1D Mk 3 and have never worried about rain. I have been caught in downpours with almost all of them with my 500 f4 and 600 f4 and had no issues. Just kept shooting.
> 
> I was at a PGA event a few years ago on a rainy day and not only did I see the pros sitting their cameras in the mud but also cleaning them off with a garden hose. I wouldn't go that far myself (mostly because I have to pay for my own gear and I assume they don't) but the higher end cameras can certainly handle some rain.



Most of the sports pros these days are freelancers that use their own gear. The days of agencies with dozens upon dozens of staff photographers are history.

Those freelancers do, however, have their gear insured against damage just as any other good business person would have their tools insured against loss.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 28, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> It was only the 1d series and 7d2 that had that levelof of sealing. Not the 5series or 6 series etc.



The 5D Mark IV was said to have the same amount of sealing as the 7D Mark II. The 5D Mark III, not so much, and the 5D Mark II much less so. Canon seems to realize that as they hold the 1-Series to around 20 MP, more and more pros are choosing to use the 5-Series when appropriate for jobs needing higher resolution.

At the time Roger Cicala did a tear down of a 7D Mark II, he said it was the most weather sealed camera he'd ever taken apart. One would assume that would have included previous 1-series bodies, as Roger likes to tear down everything he can find an excuse to take apart.


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## stevelee (Jun 28, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Those freelancers do, however, have their gear insured against damage just as any other good business person would have their tools insured against loss.


There is surely a line somewhere between what the insurance company would consider abuse and a covered loss.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 28, 2020)

stevelee said:


> There is surely a line somewhere between what the insurance company would consider abuse and a covered loss.



I think the presumption among the photogs is that what the insurance company does not know won't hurt them...


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 28, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The 5D Mark IV was said to have the same amount of sealing as the 7D Mark II. The 5D Mark III, not so much, and the 5D Mark II much less so. Canon seems to realize that as they hold the 1-Series to around 20 MP, more and more pros are choosing to use the 5-Series when appropriate for jobs needing higher resolution.
> 
> At the time Roger Cicala did a tear down of a 7D Mark II, he said it was the most weather sealed camera he'd ever taken apart. One would assume that would have included previous 1-series bodies, as Roger likes to tear down everything he can find an excuse to take apart.


Interesting. I was not aware that the 5d4 had better sealing than its predecessors. But not surprised. It is the workhorse camera for pros and deserves the best treatment


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## justaCanonuser (Jun 28, 2020)

bernie_king said:


> I've shot 1 Series cameras since the 1D Mk 3 and have never worried about rain. I have been caught in downpours with almost all of them with my 500 f4 and 600 f4 and had no issues. Just kept shooting.
> 
> I was at a PGA event a few years ago on a rainy day and not only did I see the pros sitting their cameras in the mud but also cleaning them off with a garden hose. I wouldn't go that far myself (mostly because I have to pay for my own gear and I assume they don't) but the higher end cameras can certainly handle some rain.


Same with my 7D I/II series cameras, plus my old 5D3. I had my original 7D I once in a severe autumn storm on a North sea shore with me, shooting birds in the drifting sand with my EF 500mm. Soon the camera was covered with sand and salt water spray. Afterwards, the thumb wheel scratched for about two weeks until the last grain of sand fell out, and then it was turning smoothly again. In contrast, our Nikon D300S, the competition for the 7D series back then, lost several button functions in another heavy rain (for ever!). That day, my 5D3 was much more exposed to the wet conditions, but worked flawlessly. Canon gear is really rugged on the pro/prosumer level, that's at least my experience.


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## justaCanonuser (Jun 28, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> You've seen pros cleaning the mud off their camera & lens with a garden hose?  Wow, I didn't know Canon had sealing that good for people to try and have no problems with. I've heard they were good at sealing, but that makes me even happier to get into the Canon system now. Hopefully the R5 and RF L lenses will be sealed that good!


But do not expect that you can dive with your new gear without underwater camera housing


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## justaCanonuser (Jun 28, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The 5D Mark IV was said to have the same amount of sealing as the 7D Mark II. The 5D Mark III, not so much, and the 5D Mark II much less so. Canon seems to realize that as they hold the 1-Series to around 20 MP, more and more pros are choosing to use the 5-Series when appropriate for jobs needing higher resolution.
> 
> At the time Roger Cicala did a tear down of a 7D Mark II, he said it was the most weather sealed camera he'd ever taken apart. One would assume that would have included previous 1-series bodies, as Roger likes to tear down everything he can find an excuse to take apart.


As I just wrote in another posting, even my 5D III did take heavy rain without covering and never failed to work. The 7D series is famous for being nearly indestructible, since Kai W's Digital Rev TV video many years ago, where they even burned a poor copy of a 7D. I tested my copies also the hard way with some severe accidents - unintentionally. In fact, before I invest, I frequently check Roger Cicala's blog whether he has written something about this particular camera or lens. At lensrentals, they really have a lot of customers as sickeningly cheeky gear testers.


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## usern4cr (Jun 28, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> But do not expect that you can dive with your new gear without underwater camera housing


Aw, shucks! I was hoping I could drop it into my blender and get a great video of the *"Making of the Epic Smoothie!"*


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## o2cui2i (Jun 29, 2020)

Tangent said:


> Eye detect also? One would think so. Big question aside from price for R6 is DR. ???



this was the thing I noticed as well, not sure why it wouldn't since their other mirrorless cameras have it. would be dumb to have a more expensive camera lacking something the EOS R has? I was willing to maybe look past the 20Mpix sensor but not EYE AF. will have to save a while for the R5


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## PhotonShark (Jun 30, 2020)

stevelee said:


> What I do when I’m somewhere I will want pinpoint later is just take a shot with my iPhone. Then later I can just check the metadata from that shot. It happens rarely enough that it is not a bother. I think of times on the Antrim coast of Ireland and on beaches in Hawaii (other than Waikiki). The time stamp helps me coordinate pictures from both camera and phone if there is some doubt.



How funny, I do the same. But, it’s still annoying and time consuming to do something that could be automated.

A Bluetooth connection to a stand alone GPS would solve the problem. They’re cheap (as low as as $50), have all day battery life and can live in the top of your camera bag.

No reason why a firmware update couldn’t enable this functionality.


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## canonmike (Jul 1, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


I'm hoping that the R6 will include in camera auto focus stacking capabilities, like its younger RP sibling does. This feature, if included, along with DPP 4 will allow for further focus stacking experimentation with the new line of RF lenses without having to purchase light room or photoshop. I'm particularly looking fwd to trying it in closeup macro and landscape work. Depending on the final specs, the R6 may be just what I'm looking for in my next Canon mirrorless camera. We're getting closer.


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## smeyer02 (Jul 2, 2020)

I'm hoping someone can confirm or correct my thinking about the R6 sensor. I've been shooting with EF lenses on my 70D, taking advantage of the crop factor as de facto magnification. Going to a FF sensor with the same lens (say the EF 100 f/2.8L) will result in the same hypothetical subject appearing smaller within the frame, right?

I think this means that the 20MP FF sensor on the R6 will give me a significantly smaller pixel density when I crop an image to match the FOV of the 20.2 MP APS-C sensor I've got.

Seeing that I like to use my camera mostly for macro work and air shows (both of which frequently means cropping the images to help the subject fill the screen), I'm thinking a FF camera with more pixels might be a better choice than the R6 (which is very attractive because of its other features).

Thoughts?


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## Aussie shooter (Jul 3, 2020)

smeyer02 said:


> I'm hoping someone can confirm or correct my thinking about the R6 sensor. I've been shooting with EF lenses on my 70D, taking advantage of the crop factor as de facto magnification. Going to a FF sensor with the same lens (say the EF 100 f/2.8L) will result in the same hypothetical subject appearing smaller within the frame, right?
> 
> I think this means that the 20MP FF sensor on the R6 will give me a significantly smaller pixel density when I crop an image to match the FOV of the 20.2 MP APS-C sensor I've got.
> 
> ...


Yes....and no. Yes. When cropping you will be sacrificing pixels on target but due to the lower noise intitially it may not be as much of a hit in IQ as you think. Less resolution but also less noise in the final image


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## Joules (Jul 3, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Yes....and no. Yes. When cropping you will be sacrificing pixels on target but due to the lower noise intitially it may not be as much of a hit in IQ as you think. Less resolution but also less noise in the final image


After cropping a FF image to match the FoV taken from the same spot, they will actually have the same amount of noise in them. Unless the sensors are very different, which should be the case comparing the 70D to any newer Canon of course.

But the point remains. After all, both images would have come from an identical sized sensor area and therefore have the same amount of light. Why would one be less noisy than the other?


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## Aussie shooter (Jul 3, 2020)

Joules said:


> After cropping a FF image to match the FoV taken from the same spot, they will actually have the same amount of noise in them. Unless the sensors are very different, which should be the case comparing the 70D to any newer Canon of course.
> 
> But the point remains. After all, both images would have come from an identical sized sensor area and therefore have the same amount of light. Why would one be less noisy than the other?


Pixel density. Generally the apsc sensor have smaller pixels so you would be expanding everything about that pixel more. Including the noise . I will be honest though there is nothing scientific behind what I am saying. Just what I have generally noticed. I could be wrong though


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## stevelee (Jul 3, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Pixel density. Generally the apsc sensor have smaller pixels so you would be expanding everything about that pixel more. Including the noise . I will be honest though there is nothing scientific behind what I am saying. Just what I have generally noticed. I could be wrong though


Like for most things, the answer is usually "It depends." For most of us, experience will suggest the best tool for the job out of what we have available to use. Having more pixels and more noise is its own tradeoff, and the advantage/disadvantage could easily vary by what you want to do with it. My experience goes along with your observations.


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## Sporgon (Jul 3, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> I didn't mean to imply anything negative about Canon's sealing, as I've heard that they do a good job of sealing in general. In fact, that's one (of many) reasons I'm so eager to get the R5 and start a new chapter in my photographic adventures with it.



I wouldn't get too carried away with it in the rain if I were you. Canon's 1 series might be reasonably water resistant, but there's been far too many cases of water damaged lesser models in the Canon range, and that might well include the R5.


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## smeyer02 (Jul 3, 2020)

stevelee said:


> Like for most things, the answer is usually "It depends." For most of us, experience will suggest the best tool for the job out of what we have available to use. Having more pixels and more noise is its own tradeoff, and the advantage/disadvantage could easily vary by what you want to do with it. My experience goes along with your observations.



Thanks @Aussie shooter , @Joules , and @stevelee for the responses. I've got to decide if the R6 tradeoff of fewer pixels for (assumed) less noise works for what I like to shoot.

I think it's going to be a pretty steep reduction in pixels, though. If I hypothetically fill the frame with a subject at the minimum WD of my macro lens on the 70D, I'll get a 20.2 MP image. An image taken at the same WD on the R6 will fill only the center 39% of the sensor (1/1.6^2). That's only a 7.8 MP image based on the R6 sensor spec of 20 MP.

(again, I welcome corrections to my math / logic).


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## Aussie shooter (Jul 3, 2020)

smeyer02 said:


> Thanks @Aussie shooter , @Joules , and @stevelee for the responses. I've got to decide if the R6 tradeoff of fewer pixels for (assumed) less noise works for what I like to shoot.
> 
> I think it's going to be a pretty steep reduction in pixels, though. If I hypothetically fill the frame with a subject at the minimum WD of my macro lens on the 70D, I'll get a 20.2 MP image. An image taken at the same WD on the R6 will fill only the center 39% of the sensor (1/1.6^2). That's only a 7.8 MP image based on the R6 sensor spec of 20 MP.
> 
> (again, I welcome corrections to my math / logic).


I think that despite the loss of resolution you will be happy with the images. Just based on the much newer sensor tech if nothing else. You will have far more ability to raise the shadows etc. I certainly hope it is a good choice because I will be making pretty much the same choice when I get an R6 to compliment my 7d2 which has the same sensor as the 70d.


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## spomeniks (Jul 6, 2020)

peters said:


> I think the AF alone is reasone enough to switch back
> I have the S1H, while it offers a incredible good image quality, the lack of a good constant AF makes it use in a lot of situations more difficult. Especialy on a gimbal, there is pretty much no way to use it with a shallow depth of field...



Oh man, I went from the 5D4 to the S1 and I know exactly what you mean! Having decent AF while using a gimbal is an incredible thing from a usability standpoint


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## AlP (Jul 6, 2020)

And here are some pictures (source: Nokishita):






AF-Joystick also on the R6


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