# Canon 5D MkIII difficult assignment. REALLY low light show coverage issues.



## drjlo (Jun 5, 2012)

I just covered T.H.E. Show (The Home Entertainment Show) in Newport Beach with 5D MkIII and 35L. Many rooms were almost pitch dark with small spotlights on products, many with dimmed flourescent/tungsten, and it was extremely difficult to have high enough shutter speed to prevent hand shake even with 35L. Could not use really wide aperture because system shots required better DOF. I shot with and without on-camera flash 580EX II (with ColorRight FlashRight Pro diffusor), and flash's default iso of 400 would not cut it and had to be increased. Even then I had a fair number of shots with hand-shake effects, especially when shutter reached into 1/8 or so. 

For next time, what would be some other strategies to prevent camera shake, preserve good DOF when you have no control over room lights. Is one flash simply not going to do it? I'd rather not carry a tripod, as there were dozens of rooms. To make matters worse, many rooms had the bright window uncovered, so I was shooting into the window light.

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## drjlo (Jun 5, 2012)

The above were better because of the close-up and better light control, and I had time to process my RAW's. But when whole systems were shot, the issues were much worse. For the following report, mostly in-camera JPEGS were used because I needed to post them asap. In-camera NR was "off."
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The lovely McIntosh electronics powering the CLX. 



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Angel City Audio and Melody Valve Hifi



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Melody amps on the floor



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MSB room with YG Acoustic speakers. 



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MSB Platinum IV DAC



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## drjlo (Jun 5, 2012)

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Affordable Audio room featuring the gorgeous Sonist speakers



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drjlo3, on Flickr


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## awinphoto (Jun 5, 2012)

Not bad at all given the situation. Light will always be the name of the game... If your limited at iso 400, then a good tripod, assuming they will allow one, or more lighting will be key. I think if you shoot in manual, you can change ISO to whatever you want and the flash power will be more powerful in relation to the increase in ISO... I think it's only limited at 400 if you shoot auto ISO. Also as far as lighting, you can also see if you can pick up a Q-flash... I thought I read they were even making a shoemount q-flash but I dont know if it's out or not... They tend to pack quite the punch light wise. All else fails, pick up a metz 76mz handle mount flash... GN is 76m at 100... Compared to the 58 for the 580 or even 60 for the 600 Canons, it is just more powerful. I shot with these guns and can testify they are that powerful... plus off camera axis so no worry about red eye, plus comes with rechargeable battery, ettl, modeling light, etc... Hope this helps.


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## K-amps (Jun 5, 2012)

Very nice pics, thanks for sharing! 

Did you get a chance to hear the YG acoustics?


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## avatar13 (Jun 5, 2012)

Just wondering what your 5D MIII ISO was set to? If you need smaller apertures then flash is your only way to go, you get that mixed light though due to the tungsten so you could probably gel your flash head with CTO. How much really depends on the color of the light but you can get close enough. Since you are in rooms you can try bouncing the light off the walls to create a bigger soft box effect rather than direct flash (point the flash head mounted on your camera backwards or to the sides for instance). It really depends on the look you are going after if you do it this way, this will create more even flash coverage and less of the specular highlights on the components you are photographing.


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## drjlo (Jun 6, 2012)

K-amps said:


> Very nice pics, thanks for sharing!
> 
> Did you get a chance to hear the YG acoustics?



Yes, they had several rooms featuring various YG acoustics speakers, and as they are built from CNC-aluminum cabinet, they always sound very clean, clear, and smooth. Only problem is the price.


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## drjlo (Jun 6, 2012)

avatar13 said:


> Just wondering what your 5D MIII ISO was set to?



The default iso of 400 with flash attached wasn't cutting it, so I was shooting with manual iso 800 to 1600 most of the time. 5DIII could do a pretty clean 3200, but I was still trying not to go there and was trying to stay with f/2.8 to f/5.6 range if possible. I suppose I could have used even smaller aperture for more DOF and crank up the iso even more to compensate.


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## drjlo (Jun 6, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> All else fails, pick up a metz 76mz handle mount flash... GN is 76m at 100... Compared to the 58 for the 580 or even 60 for the 600 Canons, it is just more powerful.



That's some powerful flash. Looks like it's going to run >$1100 with the Canon adapter and needed accessories though. It might be cheaper, although more painful, to drag along one of my Alien Bees next time..


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 6, 2012)

Why not post a link to your flickr page, or limit your post to 4 images? It is really annoying to have my computer hang while it is downloaing dozens of images. Not everyone has gigabit internet.

By the time my computer came back to life, I was too disgusted to enjoy the ton of images.


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## helpful (Jun 6, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Why not post a link to your flickr page, or limit your post to 4 images? It is really annoying to have my computer hang while it is downloaing dozens of images. Not everyone has gigabit internet.
> 
> By the time my computer came back to life, I was too disgusted to enjoy the ton of images.



Be nicer! I'm sure it took a long time for the poster to post all those images, and it's not your computer that's hanging, just the time it takes for the photos to download. The CPU load is almost nothing for viewing images on a website, at least with any computer more recent than 1995 or so. (I remember a 1980s computer that was still being used, and it took about two seconds of processing time just for the cursor to hover over a "rollover" image and show the "highlighted" version.)

Believe me, your computer has no ill effects as a result. I know you know this, but I just wanted to remark that our inconvenience (I have slow internet at the moment as well) is more than made up for by the huge amount of time that the poster had to invest in producing such a huge post.


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## Orion (Jun 6, 2012)

Goodness! Some of those systems go for 10s of thousands of $$$$ . . . . mmmmmmm 

Thanks for sharing!

anyhoot,



helpful said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Why not post a link to your flickr page, or limit your post to 4 images? It is really annoying to have my computer hang while it is downloaing dozens of images. Not everyone has gigabit internet.
> ...



At the risk of going OT, what is the point of saying that the poster took a lot of time and effort to post, when all that needed to be done is link to flickr, etc . . . . ., or post a FEW examples HERE, with a link to flickr?

The use of time and effort to post so many images, and having to scroll down so many, is no casue for appreciation or some sort of acknowledgement. . . different way of looking at things, I guess.


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## V8Beast (Jun 6, 2012)

Personally, I'd just suck it up and bring a tripod. Your arms will hurt, but it will alleviate all your headaches  I also find myself shooting static subjects in low-light all the time while trying to maintain a relatively deep DOF. Unfortunately, these situations often coincide with shooting in tight quarters where it's physically impossible to use a tripod. That's why I love my 24-105. Having IS on the wide end is awesome. 

Considering that you nabbed these shots with a 35mm prime, I'd venture to say you'd get a very decent hit rate with the 24-105 at that focal length with 1/8- to 1/4 second shutter speeds.


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## V8Beast (Jun 6, 2012)

One more thing. In the first series of images, where there is only one subject in each frame, you can get some surprisingly good results with a couple of off-camera flashes even without any light modifiers to diffuse the light. It just takes some practice to balance the ambient vs. the flash output, and to get the angles right, but it's hardly rocket science. 

This technique isn't practical in the images with multiple items per frame, but as others suggested, balancing the ambient with bounce flash off the ceiling might work quite well. 

What will your client be using these images for? Print, web? I know it takes a while to build trust in new equipment, but I wouldn't hesitate cranking the ISO up to 6400 or even 12,800. I've been pleasantly surprised by how well the 5D3's files clean up in post.


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## drjlo (Jun 6, 2012)

You know, maybe I should have brought my Monopod. I did buy a carbon monopod a while back, and it's probably portable enough to drag into dozens of show rooms quickly unlike a tripod. Also, I've been frowning upon Canon's new 24 and 28mm IS, mostly due to price, but maybe they would have been useful in situations like this, i.e. needing IS for hand-holdability in dark while needing higher f/stop for more DOF. 

As far as the photos, well I've seen people complain on different forums when somebody just posts a link to another website, so I thought I would just directly post them here to save people the extra step. I'm running a regular Time Warner internet, wireless to my computer, and the photos loaded pretty instantly, but I guess people have different internet speeds.


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## Bennymiata (Jun 6, 2012)

Those shots look pretty good to me.

You should try a 24-104 though.
The IS is pretty useful in low light.

I do a fair bit of event photography, mostly in very dim lighting, and I find the IS really helps.


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## tomscott (Jun 6, 2012)

You could do with working more on perspective. Looks like your shooting down on most things and its not very flattering. But not bad given the situation. Events are always hard because its busy and bustling.


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## Viggo (Jun 6, 2012)

Bring a longer lens like 50 or 85 to avoid distortion, perspective as mentioned above here. 

And just bring a tripod, because with static subjects you can do what ever you want when on a tripod instead of ending up with motion blurred images. And the light itself is interesting enough, if you bring a flash, bring GELS also.


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## hhelmbold (Jun 6, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> Personally, I'd just suck it up and bring a tripod. Your arms will hurt, but it will alleviate all your headaches ...



The tripod way was my initial thought too, but I can see from the shots that it would only solve half of the issues. You would never get the angles you need for some of these shots with a tripod, especially getting in close. You would need 2 assistants to carry all the extra clamps and different tripods for the different shots ;D

The monopod idea would have saved a couple more shots I think, but I would have personally rather pushed the ISO to the extreme and have a grainy image than a blurred image. Grain can still be handled to a certain level - blurr can't. I still remember the days where I was adament I will get my shots at the lowest ISO possible.... then one day experience kicked some sense into me


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## TW (Jun 6, 2012)

Well, I'm not sure there is any photographic technique that could present that stuff in a good light. With one or two exceptions, that is the ugliest bunch of stereo equipment I've seen in my life. And I've been an audiophile for nearly 40 years now. "Cash does not equal class."


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## Dylan777 (Jun 6, 2012)

This is when 24-70 f2.8 mrkII with *"IS"* can be very usefull


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## LewisShermer (Jun 6, 2012)

First of all try working on your verticals and getting your horizons straight. Then try and at least get an accurate WB. A 7D would handle this at 1600ISO without any noise what so ever so if you've shelled out on a 5D mk 3 then have a read about the specs and what lighting conditions it can handle. Also, why would you need 2 assistants to carry a tripod and a couple of clips?


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## awinphoto (Jun 6, 2012)

drjlo said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > All else fails, pick up a metz 76mz handle mount flash... GN is 76m at 100... Compared to the 58 for the 580 or even 60 for the 600 Canons, it is just more powerful.
> ...



It is a beast of a flash... Prices have gone up (surprise surprise) since I last bought on many moons ago. For that price you can pick up a decent strobe kit (alien bee's or white lightings or a cheap profoto) but then you have to worry about stands, awkward transport from display to display... There are trade-offs either way. The metz semi attaches to your camera via bracket and it's a portable easy set up with ettl, strobo/multi flash, modeling lamp, etc... all the functionality we love from our canon flashes but the power of a small strobe. I shot with those back in the film days but when I switched to the 10d, that model couldn't support digital cameras, I moved to a cheaper metz shoemount flash, and then when i got the 7d, moved to canon flashes for the wireless flash triggering... I miss the raw power of this flash but admittedly it's gone up in price and I'd rather grab even more power with white lightnings for half the cost... But then there are the trade off's mentioned before.


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## CanonCollector (Jun 6, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Why not post a link to your flickr page, or limit your post to 4 images? It is really annoying to have my computer hang while it is downloaing dozens of images. Not everyone has gigabit internet.
> 
> By the time my computer came back to life, I was too disgusted to enjoy the ton of images.



...and you spend all that time on the internet commenting? This was not helpful.


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## RLPhoto (Jun 6, 2012)

Tripod


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## awinphoto (Jun 6, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> Tripod



assuming the venue allows tripods... many conventions and shows will not allow tripods if theres any chance it could impede on consumer walkways. If they do allow it, bring it, if not, IS and stronger flash.


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## RLPhoto (Jun 6, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Tripod
> ...



Joby Gorilla Pod Then. Mount it to a lamp somewhere but make the camera still.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 6, 2012)

helpful said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Why not post a link to your flickr page, or limit your post to 4 images? It is really annoying to have my computer hang while it is downloaing dozens of images. Not everyone has gigabit internet.
> ...


 
The point is that 4 images are enough in a post. Thats why CR limits attachments to 4 images.

By posting a link to a website where many images can be viewed, its just plain easier on viewers with slow internet, and the poster does have something to share, so we'd all like to see at least a few of the images. 

A alternative would be to post small images that can be clicked to download a larger version.


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## keithfullermusic (Jun 6, 2012)

A couple of things:

First, please chill with the photos. I thought you were just trying to show us some examples, not your entire portfolio of the event.

Second, the answer to your question is obvious. If its dark you can either do one or more of the above: use tripod, higher flash, more flashes, higher ISO, smaller DOF, lens with really good IS. The only "trick" that I can think of is to simply underexposed your shots by nearly a stop to gain shutter speed, then bump it up in post. I do that a lot and my 50D handles it just fine. I'm not sure what you expect if you want a wide DOF, no tripod, and low ISO - especially in REALLY low light.


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## distant.star (Jun 6, 2012)

.
No reflection on the images, they seem mostly fine. But to me, that's one ugly bunch of stuff.

I'm no fan of Steve Jobs, but it would be nice if all product designers had his gift.


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## VanWeddings (Jun 6, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> This is when 24-70 f2.8 mrkII with *"IS"* can be very usefull



indeed. the tamron 24-70 2.8 vc would also be ideal for this job


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jun 6, 2012)

what i don't get is how the tripod is somehow to big...set cam to tripod, then just fold legs when done and carry...I kind of don't agree with the idea of more flash power, unless you were taking it off cam, but then you've really got a lot to carry. A tripods really not much to take around with you though, unless you have some giant beast of a tripod meant to hold 50+ lbs for astrophotography or something...

also, if no tripod, from what i have seen of the mkiii, crank that ISO - high iso performance is one of that bodies best attributes!


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## cayenne (Jun 6, 2012)

drjlo said:


> K-amps said:
> 
> 
> > Very nice pics, thanks for sharing!
> ...



Ahh...still putting out good old McIntosh amps....man, I love those things..their old tube amps.

Stereos that 'glow'.....are cool, and sound soooo good!!!

Lot's of high dollar gear at this show!

C


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## Daniel Flather (Jun 6, 2012)

Nice. Your 5D3 was the LEAST expensive thing in the room!


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## awinphoto (Jun 6, 2012)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> what i don't get is how the tripod is somehow to big...set cam to tripod, then just fold legs when done and carry...I kind of don't agree with the idea of more flash power, unless you were taking it off cam, but then you've really got a lot to carry. A tripods really not much to take around with you though, unless you have some giant beast of a tripod meant to hold 50+ lbs for astrophotography or something...
> 
> also, if no tripod, from what i have seen of the mkiii, crank that ISO - high iso performance is one of that bodies best attributes!



No arguments however certain venues will not let you bring it in... Some venues even frown on monopods... Some venues dont like pro cameras regardless... This is where a photographer needs to do homework before hand to find out what is, what isn't, what gray areas a certain venue may have BEFORE going.


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## K-amps (Jun 6, 2012)

keithfullermusic said:
 

> A couple of things:
> 
> First, please chill with the photos. I thought you were just trying to show us some examples, not your entire portfolio of the event.



I enjoyed looking at each and everyone


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## keithfullermusic (Jun 6, 2012)

K-amps said:


> I enjoyed looking at each and everyone



I'm not saying that they were terrible pictures or anything. Just imagine if everyone posted 50 pictures every time they posted. All I'm saying is that there are certain "accepted" practices, and posting 40,000 pictures isn't one of them.


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## BobSanderson (Jun 6, 2012)

keithfullermusic said:


> K-amps said:
> 
> 
> > I enjoyed looking at each and everyone
> ...



Easy on the hyperbole.


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## Quackator (Jun 6, 2012)

The main problem seems to be that you didn't match ambient and flash in color.
Tripod and HDR would have been another solution.

I don't see this assignment as so difficult.


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## keithfullermusic (Jun 7, 2012)

Quackator said:


> The main problem seems to be that you didn't match ambient and flash in color.
> Tripod and HDR would have been another solution.
> 
> I don't see this assignment as so difficult.



about matching colors - thats something that is really simple to do. just buy a set of rosco gels for like 10 bucks. it comes with 100 or so in varying colors. then, match the flash with the color temp of the lights in the building. make sure you shoot in raw, because you will probably have to seriously adjust the white balance afterwards unless you set a good custom white balance. that way the light from the flash doesn't stand out as a white light against yellow, blue, or green (depending on the light source). if there are fluorescent, tungsten, halogen, and sun while you're using your flash then good luck.


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## keithfullermusic (Jun 7, 2012)

BobSanderson said:


> Easy on the hyperbole.



rough day. i went a little overboard - i apologize. thank goodness we still don't have the smite button...


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## cayenne (Jun 7, 2012)

keithfullermusic said:


> Quackator said:
> 
> 
> > The main problem seems to be that you didn't match ambient and flash in color.
> ...



Sorry for the extreme noob questions...but how does one go in 'matching' the color of the room lights with a gel? Is there a meter you use to find the room light color temperature...and use a chart to match it to a gel?

Thanks in advance,

C


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## keithfullermusic (Jun 8, 2012)

Different lights give off different colors. Most tungsten lights (normal house lamps) give off an orange color, so I use some sort of CTO orange gel on my flash, fluorescent gives off green, so there are gels for that, and halogen and the sun tend to be bluer, so there are gels for that.

There are ways of testing, but the best way I found is to simply take a shot with the flash and the other lights in the room. Then, if you see two different colors put a matching gel on your flash to even them out. This makes indoor flash shots look a lot better, and I'm not just being nitpicky. If you are taking pics of the interior of a house and you have huge exposure extremes with the windows open and lights on you pretty much have to use a flash or two, then you will definitely notice a massive diffence with the gels on and off in terms of a nice even color all the way around.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 8, 2012)

CanonCollector said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Why not post a link to your flickr page, or limit your post to 4 images? It is really annoying to have my computer hang while it is downloaing dozens of images. Not everyone has gigabit internet.
> ...


 
I'd like to be helpful, but I do not want to spend all my time on the internet waiting for them to download. 

I thought that was a helpful hint for the poster to give him some feedback.

What helpful comment did ypou post??


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## Fleetie (Jun 8, 2012)

I enjoyed all the photos too. 

I LOVE hi-fi, me!

It was my money-drain before photography.

I noticed the pair of Spendor speakers; I used to have SP1 speakers before I got burgled and some **** stole them.

Those ones look kinda like the size of SP1s, but with only 2 drivers like SP2s.

Now I use Dynaudio Audience 52SE, which are smaller and have less bass, but awesome mid and treble.

I'd use electrostatics if I had a bigger room.

Once I've finished buying photo gear (heh, yeah... ), I wanna go back and put more dosh into the hi-fi and get a nice valve amp. Used to have QUAD IIs when I was 18-21 but sold them as I was a poor student. TDP has reworked the QUAD II into a new version, or I might just think about getting one of his own EAR amps.

But I still have at least 3 lenses to buy! Extender 2x, 85Lf/1.2, 24-70LII.


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## K-amps (Jun 8, 2012)

distant.star said:


> .
> No reflection on the images, they seem mostly fine. But to me, that's one ugly bunch of stuff.
> 
> I'm no fan of Steve Jobs, but it would be nice if all product designers had his gift.



When you realize the volumes these are sold in, you'd know how cost prohibitive it can get. Same drivers/ crossovers and enclusure size done in MDF and a plain box might cost $1500, the same thing done in an applesque or similar motif, will cost $20k or more.... I'd rather spend $1500 and hide the suckers somehow... then again I don't have $20k to spare either...


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## cayenne (Jun 9, 2012)

Fleetie said:


> I enjoyed all the photos too.
> 
> I LOVE hi-fi, me!
> 
> ...



With me...photography looks like an additional money drain.


I have 50th anniversary Klipshorns....running off a couple of Decware (budget when I bought them) SET amplifiers....
Some day..will find some good classic McIntosh tube amps....and I'll be complete...


And now, I'll be able to take quality pictures for insurance purposes...next time a Katrina comes close!!


C


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