# Mirrorless Update - APS-C? [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 12, 2012)

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<strong>Going bigger?


</strong>We’ve mentioned in teh past that the upcoming mirrorless camera from Canon would have the G1 X sensor. While an apparent prototype exists using the sensor, the coming camera is apparently an APS-C sized sensor based around the 18mp sensor in the Rebel T4i (Hopefully the rubber grip isnt the same).</p>
<p>The camera will also feature an articulating touchscreen, and maybe larger than some people are anticipating.</p>
<p>More to come I’m sure. An announcement is expected on July 23, 2012.</p>
<p>Seems [<a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html" target="_blank">NL</a>] is hearing similar things.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## Dylan777 (Jul 12, 2012)

APS-C size in 2012. FF sensor in 2013 ;D 

Wonder how fast AF will be?


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## Lee Jay (Jul 12, 2012)

The important thing is, how smooth does the film winder operate?


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## unfocused (Jul 12, 2012)

Well, that would be a pleasant surprise. 

A decent rangefinder and "classic" styling would complete the package. 

Interesting though that they continue to essentially recycle the 18 mp sensor. It makes me wonder if the rumored 70D will also use the hybrid 18 mp sensor and Canon saves a new sensor for the 7DII.


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## Etienne (Jul 12, 2012)

An APS-C mirrorless will get interesting when they have a 20mm pancake, and some other small lenses.


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## Gothmoth (Jul 12, 2012)

i guess that´s how the canon mirrorless will look.. more or less:







no honest i think it will resemble more a DSLR then a PEN or GF or a classic camera.


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## Rocky (Jul 12, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> i guess that´s how the canon mirrorless will look.. more or less:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hope not. That will make it not even coat-pocketable.


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## Gothmoth (Jul 12, 2012)

Rocky said:


> I hope not. That will make it not even coat-pocketable.



im not sure if "pocketable" is a concern for canon when it comes to the new mirrorless camera.
APS-C is not the way to go then. the body can be small but as you see on NEX.. the lenses are not.

they will sure try to make it smaller then the SX1... but i would not be suprised when it resembles a bridge/DSLR look.


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## VASH1291 (Jul 12, 2012)

This also appeared on M4/3 Rumors ;D

http://www.43rumors.com/something-else-canon-goes-aps-c-with-the-new-mirrorles-system/


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## c.d.embrey (Jul 12, 2012)

Please, please, please no *fugly faux retro rangefinder* look! No Hybrid viewfinder needed, just a high quality EVF.

Also it would be nice to have *Body Only* or *Body plus EF Adapter* as an option.


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## Stone (Jul 12, 2012)

Great news if true, and I'll definitely give it a look although I still have a candle burning for a FF mirrorless. I'll probably continue to sit on the sidelines until I see who decides Leica shouldn't be the only FF game in town....


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## Rocky (Jul 12, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> Rocky said:
> 
> 
> > I hope not. That will make it not even coat-pocketable.
> ...


It will be coat-pocketable if a pancake prime is used. The zooms are too big.


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## dstppy (Jul 12, 2012)

I re-read up on all of this every time a new rumor comes out and the point really still eludes me . . . 

As I understand it, they're trying to get features from P&S cameras (lightweight, small, no mirror noise) and SLRs (interchangeable lenses, bigger sensors) to work together, no?

If that's the case, is this like the 'buy a hybrid car' thing, where the economics don't work from a practical sense but it's the principal of the thing?

Someone help me out here  I can't see what's wrong with the current (and possibly future) lineup of SLRs and P&S cameras.

Thanks


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## Dylan777 (Jul 12, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> i guess that´s how the canon mirrorless will look.. more or less:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then no one would buy it. The "classic" looks way better.


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## DzPhotography (Jul 12, 2012)

"(Hopefully the rubber grip isnt the same)" ROFL ;D


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## c.d.embrey (Jul 12, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> im not sure if "pocketable" is a concern for canon when it comes to the new mirrorless camera.
> APS-C is not the way to go then. the body can be small but as you see on NEX.. the lenses are not.
> 
> they will sure try to make it smaller then the SX1... but i would not be suprised when it resembles a bridge/DSLR look.



The only M4/3 camera that I'd buy is the Olympus OM-D E-M5, it's 4.8 inch (W) x 3.5 inch (H) x 1.7 inch (D) and weighs 15 Oz with battery and memory card. Not what I'd call a small pocketable camera. Add to that a lens length of 1.7" to 2.9" (12mm f/2.0 and 75mm f/1.8 ) and they won't even fit in the pocket of Cargo Shorts  My Sony NEX 5n (APS-C) isn't really pocketable, even with the 16mm f/2.8 pancake lens.

If I need a pocketable camera, I use my iPod Touch 4G


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## Gothmoth (Jul 12, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> Then no one would buy it. The "classic" looks way better.




you would not buy it.. but i really doubt you can speak for other customers. 

you have not done a survey, right?
so you can not even say how many people would prefer a classic look.

the SX1 is no beauty.. but then i find angelina jolie not that sexy either.


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## Lee Jay (Jul 12, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> Then no one would buy it. The "classic" looks way better.



Who cares how they _look_? You aren't taking pictures of them, you're taking pictures with them.

I hated using my AE-1 - rotten ergonomics. Much better with an actual grip.


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## thewallbanger (Jul 12, 2012)

Retro looks with 3rd party adaptors for vintage lenses would peak my interest.


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## Ricku (Jul 12, 2012)

APS-C mirrorless from Canon is good news!

Because then there is still a chance for a full frame version.

I will be waiting.


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## Canon-F1 (Jul 12, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> Gothmoth said:
> 
> 
> > i guess that´s how the canon mirrorless will look.. more or less:
> ...



maybe im different then you.
i go out shooting with my camera i don´t take pictures of my camera.

if the ergonomics are ok, if the image quality is great i would even buy a camera made by ricoh designers. .


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## Rocky (Jul 12, 2012)

Ricku said:


> APS-C mirrorless from Canon is good news!
> 
> Because then there is still a chance for a full frame version.
> 
> I will be waiting.


It will be a very LONG wait. I doubt that Canon will do a FF mirrorless system (Body and lenses) within 10 years.


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## RLPhoto (Jul 12, 2012)

Yes. Atleast APS-C!!! Now just package a good 50mm 1.8 Equivalent and im good to go.


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## TrumpetPower! (Jul 12, 2012)

As I've previously (and repeatedly) observed, Canon's mirrorless will bridge (and presumably cannibalize) their high-end P&S line and the Rebel line.

If it's APS-C, it's a given that it'll take EF-S lenses at the least, and the Shorty McForty strongly hints that it'll take regular EF lenses as well. Considering that there won't be a mirror to get in the way and that that's the reason you can't mount EF-S lenses on EF cameras, the new mirrorless being able to mount EF lenses would almost seem to be a given.

I think the only remaining question will be if Canon introduces a new, even more compact lens series that still uses the EF physical mounts but moves even more of the optics farther back into the body. That might let them design something as pocketable as many are clamoring for -- say, a slow kit zoom not much bigger than the Shorty McForty. They might also take this opportunity to introduce in-camera IS to further save on lens size

But, again -- mirrorless will never encroach on the pro line any more than EF-S has. And if the new mirrorless comes introduced with a new lens that can't be mounted on EF-S, then it's guaranteed that there'll never be a Canon mirrorless with any size sensor other than APS-C.

I think the Canon lineup will eventually look mostly something like this:

PowerShot - Pocketable P&S, many many models, no significant change from today
Mirrorless - Replaces G-series PowerShots and all Rebels, 3 - 5 models total
??D - APS-C DSLR, one model, replacing both the 60D and 7D
5D - Full-frame DSLR w/o integrated grip, one model
1D - Flagship model
...plus whatever pro video stuff they do like the 1DC

The interesting questions will be whether they add an entry-level full-frame camera (I'm guessing they won't) and what their insane megapickle camera will be (I'm guessing a 1 series something-or-other that puts the D800 to shame but also costs at least half again as much).

b&


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## Rocky (Jul 12, 2012)

I am sure that the Canon Mirrorless will have it own mount (due to thinner body) with adapter for EF/EF-S lenses. Then the third part manufacturers will come up with adapters for virtually all the 'Classic lenses".


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## Dylan777 (Jul 12, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Then no one would buy it. The "classic" looks way better.
> ...



We can make quick survey to see how CRs members respond to body design  Classic Vs XS1 style


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## RLPhoto (Jul 12, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> Gothmoth said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



Classic Styling anyday.


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## Rocky (Jul 12, 2012)

TrumpetPower! said:


> Mirrorless - Replaces G-series PowerShots and all Rebels, 3 - 5 models total



I doubt that will be happening soon. Not until there is a huge breakthrough in EVF technology (in both performance and cost). The optical view finder on the Rebel beats any existing EVF anytime.


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## c.d.embrey (Jul 12, 2012)

dstppy said:


> Someone help me out here  I can't see what's wrong with the current (and possibly future) lineup of SLRs and P&S cameras.
> 
> Thanks



There are some of us who think that DSLR bodies have grown too large. We don't want to lug around a 2.5 lb Pro Body DSLR or a 2+ lb DSLR. My 16.2Mp Sony NEX 5n (APS-C, 1.5 crop) weighs 7.4 Oz. A 24Mp NEX 7 (APS-C, 1.5 crop) weighs 9.3 Oz. Are you starting to get the picture ??? Small light weight cameras that produce high quality files are what we want. The Sony NEX and Olympus OM-D E-M5 (15 Oz) are what many photographers want/need. These cameras may look like toys to you, but they are producing magazine covers and advertising photos. Hopefully the upcoming Canon Mirrorless with be good enough to join the party.

BTW there will be no future P&S cameras, they will be replaced by smart phones


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## Rocky (Jul 12, 2012)

Ergonomic is more important than the style. Out of ALL the existing mirrorless, Leica M9 got the best ergonomics. I doubt that canon will put a Leica style and function view finder on its mirrorless.


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## Ricku (Jul 12, 2012)

Rocky said:


> Ricku said:
> 
> 
> > APS-C mirrorless from Canon is good news!
> ...


Not really. I think Canon will go for full frame mirrorless sooner than later. If not, then Nikon or Sony will beat them to it. 

The demand is definitely out there. I saw a rather big poll at Fred Miranda not long ago, where they asked what people wanted in a mirrorless camera. "Full frame" dominated the poll completely.

And besides, Leica is already standing at the mirrorless full frame hill, taunting the others. We'll see who goes first.


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## Rocky (Jul 12, 2012)

Camera is a personal item. Everybody has his own preference. A lot of people feels that the Rebel is too small and cannot hold it comfortably let alone it is unbalance with a longer and heavier lens. Obviously, a lot of people like it. It is the best selling Canon DSLR. I will not buy a 1D due to the size and weight regardless of the price and some people will feel that anything other 1D is not comfortable for them. Between the 20D and 7D, the 7D has grown only 0.2 inches in length and 0.1 inches in height. For me the 20D size fit me perfectly.


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## Ale (Jul 12, 2012)

As the recent rumors are telling that Canon's DO technology is well and alive, I wouldn't be surprised if they released some DO lenses to the mirrorless lineup to keep lens sizes smaller than they would "normally" be. The current DO lenses are tele lenses only, but I recall reading some other DO patent news of shorter focal lengths.

DO pancake, anyone? 

When it comes to body design, I'm betting more on a GX1 style than SX1. We'll see...


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## dstppy (Jul 12, 2012)

c.d.embrey said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > Someone help me out here  I can't see what's wrong with the current (and possibly future) lineup of SLRs and P&S cameras.
> ...



See, that's where I don't get it; my wife's 4s is the *only* half way 'keepable' phone camera but it is nothing compared to any of canon's entry-level IS cameras.

The S95 is tiny but I can create better shots out of it than some of the parents with DSLRs at my kids games. 

The SX40IS type cameras are super light and get great IQ for the price, which brings me back to the original point:
We're pretty sure this camera's price isn't going to be cheap and nothing is going to be revolutionary on it . . . so is this all just a case of people being excited because at some point in the future they're going to be great?

Is there really anything exciting here or are we talking about Neapolitan Ice-cream where you sorta get a little of everything but there's nothing to really love?


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## pdirestajr (Jul 12, 2012)

Or they could play off of this style of camera with a modern take.


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## hoghavemercy (Jul 12, 2012)

What's the pricing on these?


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## chito (Jul 12, 2012)

Why do people keep insisting that it will use EF and EF-S lenses without an adapter? The flange focal distance for the EF mount is 44 mm... Unless you think the Canon mirrorless will be chunky like the Pentax K-01.. then it will most certainly have a new lens mount. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flange_focal_distance


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## RLPhoto (Jul 12, 2012)

pdirestajr said:


> Or they could play off of this style of camera with a modern take.



THIS WOULD BE AWESOME IN APS-C!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000


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## ecka (Jul 12, 2012)

Rocky said:


> Gothmoth said:
> 
> 
> > Rocky said:
> ...



Even 5D is coat-pocketable if a pancake prime is used . However, I wouldn't carry it in a pocket anyways ... a small camera bag is much much better for carrying such expensive and fragile equipment.


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## infared (Jul 12, 2012)

Based on the latest update...the Canon mirrorless sounds like a TOTAL disappointment for this photographer. Canon hit ALL of the points that I do NOT care about....like small size...being the MAIN one. OH well...I will keep Canon around for my FF needs! LOL!


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## infared (Jul 12, 2012)

Rocky said:


> Gothmoth said:
> 
> 
> > i guess that´s how the canon mirrorless will look.. more or less:
> ...



ANYTHING APS-C sensor will be perhaps knap-sackable. Get real. LOL!


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## infared (Jul 12, 2012)

c.d.embrey said:


> Gothmoth said:
> 
> 
> > im not sure if "pocketable" is a concern for canon when it comes to the new mirrorless camera.
> ...


Now your are talkin!!!!!! Canon missed the whole point to mirrorless! SMALL...SMALL & SMALL! LOL!


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## Rocky (Jul 12, 2012)

infared said:


> c.d.embrey said:
> 
> 
> > Gothmoth said:
> ...


Unfortunately, either camera have good ergonomics.


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## intown (Jul 12, 2012)

> BTW there will be no future P&S cameras, they will be replaced by smart phones



Completely agree. 

I think the majority of camera owners will never own a camera that costs more than $350 but they will own a smartphone that will take pictures as good as a P&S. These pictures will never be printed they will just be sent in text messages and posted to Facebook. IMO some of the new smart phones do a great job for this level of photography.


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## TrumpetPower! (Jul 12, 2012)

Rocky said:


> TrumpetPower! said:
> 
> 
> > Mirrorless - Replaces G-series PowerShots and all Rebels, 3 - 5 models total
> ...



I agree with you that we're ages away from an EVF that can even pretend to compete with the real thing, even the dark and dinky ones on a Rebel.

However, I'd bet that the overwhelming majority of Rebel owners already mostly use live view anyway. Note, that's the majority of those who own Rebels, and certainly not the majority of Rebel owners who read Canon Rumors -- those are two entirely distinct sets of people.

But the EVF problem is yet another reason why there'll never be a full-frame mirrorless Canon camera. The only reason for full-frame is image quality, and APS-C is already overkill for the largest desktop printers. The only reason for mirrorless is to make something you can slip in the opposite pocket from your cellphone. If you're really making 24" x 36" and bigger prints, fitting your camera in your pocket is the least of your photographic challenges.

Cheers,

b&


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## c.d.embrey (Jul 12, 2012)

dstppy said:


> See, that's where I don't get it; my wife's 4s is the *only* half way 'keepable' phone camera but it is nothing compared to any of canon's entry-level IS cameras.



*Most people don't care about quality!!!* All they ever do with their photos is post them on FaceSpace. They don't even make 4x6 prints. For these *Non-Photo-Enthusiasts* a camera phone makes more sense than a Real Camera, 'cause they can post to Social Sites directly from their Smart Phone (no computer needed).



> The SX40IS type cameras are super light and get great IQ for the price ...



But you can't make a phone call on them or post to directly to SpaceFace 



> We're pretty sure this camera's price isn't going to be cheap and nothing is going to be revolutionary on it . . .



I'm not looking for a cheap price! I'm looking for a small/light camera and I'm willing to pay a reasonable amount of money to get it. The M4/3 Olympus OM-D E-M5 sells for $999.00 and there is a waiting list to get them, so it's not just me wanting this type of small/light camera.


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## Dylan777 (Jul 12, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Then no one would buy it. The "classic" looks way better.
> ...



With current survey, people seems to prefer classic body style. 

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=7984.msg145588;topicseen#new

I think I know the person voted for SX1 body style ;D


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## Dylan777 (Jul 12, 2012)

Lee Jay said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Then no one would buy it. The "classic" looks way better.
> ...



Canon users and CRs members do care:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=7984.msg145588;topicseen#new


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## c.d.embrey (Jul 12, 2012)

Rocky said:


> Unfortunately, either camera have good ergonomics.



I like my NEX 5n, ergonomics isn't a problem for me. And I wear X-Large gloves  The NEX 5n's biggest problem is lack of a hot-shoe. Without a hot-shoe I can't use PocketWizanrds to trigger Profoto packs


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## unfocused (Jul 12, 2012)

Dylan777 said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



Yes. All 12 of them. 

Just one more example of why people are delusional if they think Canon should pay any attention at all to the ramblings on this forum. This is entertainment, but under no circumstances should anyone think that the opinions expressed here are typical or representative of the customer base.


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## Lee Jay (Jul 12, 2012)

c.d.embrey said:


> BTW there will be no future P&S cameras, they will be replaced by smart phones



Maybe someday, when they get the basics, like a shutter release button, a zoom lens, and a tripod mount.


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## Kernuak (Jul 12, 2012)

Lee Jay said:


> c.d.embrey said:
> 
> 
> > BTW there will be no future P&S cameras, they will be replaced by smart phones
> ...


The vast majority of owners of P&S and low end DSLRs don't care how it works and don't own a tripod. Most would find the zoom useful, but there have been quite a few cheap P&S cameras without zooms.


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## zim (Jul 13, 2012)

I feel intimidated nowadays walking around with a DSLR but something with a classic look (I prefer the Canon-p as an example) I’d be fine with, and the general public/police/security guards. For me the problem with phone camera’s is not the quality of the picture, I’ve printed 12x16 off of my wife’s Samsung galaxy and was rather surprised at the results - she was ecstatic, but the slowness of the AF and shutter reaction times are the issue. I’d really want DSLR performance on that for a mirrorless rangefinder type.

On the other hand…..
Maybe if I tried my D500 with a pancake and lost the strap I’d feel better which would mean I’m only a couple of hundred pounds away from a real good street setup and will that be really be that much bigger than this mirrorless?


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## Blaze (Jul 13, 2012)

TrumpetPower! said:


> Rocky said:
> 
> 
> > TrumpetPower! said:
> ...



I disagree that the "only reason for full-frame is image quality, and APS-C is already overkill for the largest desktop printers." Full frame sensors are not good just for extra resolution; they gather more than twice as much light as an APS-C sensor. That makes a big difference to me shooting sports in low light.


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## Rocky (Jul 13, 2012)

zim said:


> I feel intimidated nowadays walking around with a DSLR but something with a classic look (I prefer the Canon-p as an example) I’d be fine with, and the general public/police/security guards. For me the problem with phone camera’s is not the quality of the picture, I’ve printed 12x16 off of my wife’s Samsung galaxy and was rather surprised at the results - she was ecstatic, but the slowness of the AF and shutter reaction times are the issue. I’d really want DSLR performance on that for a mirrorless rangefinder type.
> 
> On the other hand…..
> Maybe if I tried my D500 with a pancake and lost the strap I’d feel better which would mean I’m only a couple of hundred pounds away from a real good street setup and will that be really be that much bigger than this mirrorless?


Usually, the length of the lens attracts attention from the security people, not the camera. I was stopped by the security when I entered the pavilion for the children's tennis match. They told me that the lens cannot be longer than 3 inches. So I changed into a shorted lens and walked in.


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## TrumpetPower! (Jul 13, 2012)

Blaze said:


> I disagree that the "only reason for full-frame is image quality, and APS-C is already overkill for the largest desktop printers." Full frame sensors are not good just for extra resolution; they gather more than twice as much light as an APS-C sensor. That makes a big difference to me shooting sports in low light.



But that's just image quality again. Boost the ISO by a stop or two and you get pretty much the same shot as on full frame, just with more noise. Now, downsample that frame to 1024x768, to post on the Web or send in an email, and the noise vanishes.

Would you be satisfied with the image quality? Obviously not. But 99 44/100% of Rebel owners would be thrilled with it, and that's why we're not going to see a full-frame mirrorless.

b&


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## whatta (Jul 13, 2012)

yes, apsc please, then it would be possible to use my efs lenses, so it can be a real alternative to replace my 400d.


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## ecka (Jul 13, 2012)

TrumpetPower! said:


> Blaze said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree that the "only reason for full-frame is image quality, and APS-C is already overkill for the largest desktop printers." Full frame sensors are not good just for extra resolution; they gather more than twice as much light as an APS-C sensor. That makes a big difference to me shooting sports in low light.
> ...



It seems like many people are underestimating "image quality" just because they don't care. For me, it is not about noise in unreasonably high ISO shots or gigantic prints, but about clear, sharp and not smeared details of an image with fully usable resolution. I often find 100% crops from my 5D2 (good lighting, low ISO, sharp lens) being high quality images by themselves, while the 18mp APS-C is really pushing it. Most of the time, high resolution APS-C may be reasonable for prints, but it is an overkill (+ many compromises) for digital use. For what I do with my camera, FF can pretty much compensate for using a small prime instead of a huge L zoom, just by cropping the image. APS-C is a few levels below in this regard. FF + 40/2.8 can pretty much act like APS-C + 24-70 in term of usable image resolution for screen.


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## briansquibb (Jul 13, 2012)

ecka said:


> For what I do with my camera, FF can pretty much compensate for using a small prime instead of a huge L zoom, just by cropping the image. APS-C is a few levels below in this regard. FF + 40/2.8 can pretty much act like APS-C + 24-70 in term of usable image resolution for screen.



Using large whites is as much a reason for IQ than closeups. I use a 200 f/2 rather than the 70-200 f/2.8 for the better IQ. The 100-400L does not compare with the 400 f/2.8 either

Cropping has the effect of reducing the bg blur that you would get with a longer lens


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## ecka (Jul 13, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > For what I do with my camera, FF can pretty much compensate for using a small prime instead of a huge L zoom, just by cropping the image. APS-C is a few levels below in this regard. FF + 40/2.8 can pretty much act like APS-C + 24-70 in term of usable image resolution for screen.
> ...



Well, first of all, why would you use large whites with a mirrorless camera?



> Cropping has the effect of reducing the bg blur that you would get with a longer lens



So, are you going closer to the lion just to get that bg blur you want?  (sorry, I couldn't resist)
Now seriously, if I put something like 85L on my 5D2, there is nothing in the APS-C world I could compare it to, even 85/1.8 on FF is unbeatable for the price (opposed to 50/1L on crop). FF wins in bokeh competition any day of the year. The distance is an important factor. To get the same framing with the same lens on both FF and crop cameras you have to be closer when using FF and that's where the bonus bokeh comes from. More on that, using a crop sensor camera and cropping FF image to match it (same lens on both cameras), gets you to a similar result without any compromises in bg blur. So, in my mind, FF is a win/win.
24-105L on FF *>* 17-55/2.8 on APS-C, while price and weight are the same + 24-105L has wider (15-65/2.5 equivalent) focal range as well as dust and moisture resistance. If not cropping, 40/2.8 on FF equals 25/1.8 on crop, which wouldn't be a pancake lens for $199 (or could it be?).


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## briansquibb (Jul 13, 2012)

ecka said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > ecka said:
> ...


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## dstppy (Jul 13, 2012)

c.d.embrey said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > See, that's where I don't get it; my wife's 4s is the *only* half way 'keepable' phone camera but it is nothing compared to any of canon's entry-level IS cameras.
> ...



Okay, this seems like the first lucid response  So you're expecting the mirror less to surpass even the G-series, while still being compact (which isn't going to be necessarily cheap). That makes sense.

Re: SmartPhones
I think once people have kids, their perceptions about image quality change though . . . and $100 P&S take fabulous photos these days. 

Don't get me wrong, I've had 2 iPhones, and plan to replace the one I have, but I'm ready to go back to a dedicated phone and just have a PDA (as soon as I can get one with wifi) and with privacy concerns (some places don't like cameras on their visitors) I think we'll see some non-camera choices soon.

Eventually, (some) people will realize that 1 camera, phone and 'computer' means when your phone breaks, your camera does too . . . but that's another topic entirely 

Thanks for the explanation about your thoughts on the mirror less; makes more sense (for some people).


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## ecka (Jul 13, 2012)

briansquibb said:


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You may use mirrorless with large whites, but would you buy one specifically for that purpose or choose to use it instead of your DSLR for any reason? It could be nice for video using EVF, but you can use a Z-finder on your DSLR as well.
..and yes, heavy cropping is no good for bokeh, you just have to get closer with a FF camera.


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## jouster (Jul 13, 2012)

Lee Jay said:


> c.d.embrey said:
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> > BTW there will be no future P&S cameras, they will be replaced by smart phones
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I think you're wrong. Most people don't care about the first two things, and the thought of buying a tripod would never even occur to them. I think fewer and fewer people are going to replace their P&S cameras. Isn't that why camera companies are making these larger sensor systems in the first place? To differentiate them from phone cams in a way that is not possible with P&Ss?


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## briansquibb (Jul 13, 2012)

ecka said:


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I think long term DSLRs will go so we will end up with full size with EVT

If the compact mirrorless with exchangeable lens takes off then I would expect to see white lens for them with a native mount.

To have compact and full size bodies would mean the end of the Rebel sized bodies and format.


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## ecka (Jul 13, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I think long term DSLRs will go so we will end up with full size with EVT


It may be so. (I hope)


> If the compact mirrorless with exchangeable lens takes off then I would expect to see white lens for them with a native mount.


I wouldn't . I think that a lens adapter would work just fine. However it may be coming much much later, when all the Pro DSLR series will be replaced by mirrorless systems.


> To have compact and full size bodies would mean the end of the Rebel sized bodies and format.


Not everybody wants a smaller body, many are using battery grips with their Rebels, 60Ds/7Ds/5Ds and they like the size of it.


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## TrumpetPower! (Jul 13, 2012)

ecka said:


> It seems like many people are underestimating "image quality" just because they don't care.



Oh, believe me. I care about image quality. That's why I use a 5DIII and my favorite lens right now is a tossup between the TS-E 24 II and the 400 f/2.8 II -- and why I've got an iPF8100 sitting ten feet away from me.

But you and me, we're not the market that Canon is targeting with the mirrorless cameras. And, in that market, the APS-C sensor is overkill -- but, of course overkill in a good way such that it gives the users plenty of margin for error without any significant penalty.

Of the list of problems that a mirrorless camera is meant to solve, image quality isn't even on the radar. And of the list of problems that a full-frame sensor can potentially solve...well, there isn't even any hint of a hypothetical overlap with the list of problems that mirrorless is supposed to solve. Full frame is only needed when the image quality (including resolution, low-light capability, control over depth of field, and the rest) of APS-C isn't good enough, and we've already established that APS-C is <i>far</i> more than good enough for the target market.

Cheers,

b&


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## briansquibb (Jul 13, 2012)

ecka said:


> Not everybody wants a smaller body, many are using battery grips with their Rebels, 60Ds/7Ds/5Ds and they like the size of it.



I cannot work with the small bodies - 1 series is ideal for me

Likewise I dont like the 5Dx size without grips as I shoot a lot in portrait mode which is a killer for the hands


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## RLPhoto (Jul 13, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> ecka said:
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> > Not everybody wants a smaller body, many are using battery grips with their Rebels, 60Ds/7Ds/5Ds and they like the size of it.
> ...



Mirrorless = Compact with good IQ and a basic lens selection.


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## briansquibb (Jul 13, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


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That might be how it starts ....

Not sure how good IQ and basic lens selection works unless you mean a limited range?


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## Lee Jay (Jul 13, 2012)

jouster said:


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I know I'm not. I'm not talking about the masses that don't give a damn about photography or their photos - they already use useless cell phones for pictures and videos. I'm talking about cameras for enthusiasts and above.


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## RLPhoto (Jul 13, 2012)

briansquibb said:


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Well, I wont want/need a 200mm F/2 to go with it but an adapter so you could if you'd like.

24mm prime eqiv.

50mm prime eqiv.

100mm prime eqiv.

and a 18-55mm & 55-300mm zooms for the consumers. Done. 8)


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## TrumpetPower! (Jul 13, 2012)

Lee Jay said:


> jouster said:
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But that's just the thing. The only "camera enthusiasts and above" who buy Rebels and G-series PowerShot models are starving students and spendthrifts, and they're such a small part of the market that Canon doesn't care much about them.

Most of those who buy G-series PowerShot cameras are the masses who don't give a damn about photography but want something a bit better than run-of-the-mill, and most of those who buy Rebels are the same but with more disposable income (think soccer moms with a T3I and a $200 75-300 on the sidelines). Mirrorless will be perfect for them.

The set of "enthusiasts and above" who want full frame but aren't willing to put up with the physical size of a 5DIII is virtually nonexistent (though, granted, vocal).

Again, Canon is going to keep making cheap PowerShot cameras in a dozen different colors until cell phones eat up that market. Mirrorless will take over G-series PowerShot and Rebels both, and the XD series will remain pretty much as it is for a long time to come (except, of course, for the same sorts of improvements as always).

b&


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## ecka (Jul 13, 2012)

TrumpetPower! said:


> ecka said:
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I believe you . However, when I don't need high image quality, I don't even need a big sensor camera for that shot, P&S or a smartphone would do. When I look at all the 5D2 features, I realize that I don't really need a DSLR. What I need is FF mirrorless. If only Leica M9 had LiveView, EVF and was like 4 times cheaper : ...
For example, I never (or like once a year) use P, Av, Tv, B, CA or AUTO. All I want is C1,C2 and M mode + autoISO, autoSS, autoF settings *in it*. So, it is possible to integrate the whole mode dial into the ON/OFF switch  and add a 3rd dial + some buttons instead. Simple is perfect. Or maybe that's just me...


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## Blaze (Jul 13, 2012)

TrumpetPower! said:


> Blaze said:
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> > I disagree that the "only reason for full-frame is image quality, and APS-C is already overkill for the largest desktop printers." Full frame sensors are not good just for extra resolution; they gather more than twice as much light as an APS-C sensor. That makes a big difference to me shooting sports in low light.
> ...



That works if you still have an extra stop or two of ISO available and don't care about losing a significant amount of dynamic range (it's _not_ just a difference in noise). But then DR is "just image quality" as well, I suppose.

As far as what to expect, it really boils down to who the mirrorless is marketed towards. If they target the Rebel buying populous (and that's where the profit is to be made), it would indeed be silly to put a FF sensor in it.


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## drjlo (Jul 13, 2012)

CanonRumors is now reporting possibly APS-C sensor the Canon mirrorless 

http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/07/mirrorless-update-aps-c-cr2/


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## TrumpetPower! (Jul 13, 2012)

ecka said:


> Simple is perfect. Or maybe that's just me...



It's not just you...but you and your brethren are not only one of the smallest minorities in Canon's set of customers, you're also generally willing to make do with the offerings they have. Either you'll decide you're okay with APS-C and go with mirrorless for its pocketability, or you'll decide you can live with the bulk of a 5DIII.

The target audience for mirrorless (again, think of soccer moms) won't put up with the extra expense for full frame, and the target audience for full frame (wedding pros and the like) couldn't give a damn about camera size and will laugh at you if you suggest they can do without the viewfinder.

I feel your pain, but Canon doesn't....

b&


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## TrumpetPower! (Jul 13, 2012)

Blaze said:


> As far as what to expect, it really boils down to who the mirrorless is marketed towards. If they target the Rebel buying populous (and that's where the profit is to be made), it would indeed be silly to put a FF sensor in it.



You've got it.

And, yes -- the soccer mom on the sidelines with a Rebel and a 75-300 has no clue what dynamic range is or why she'd care about not having it. Indeed, she'd just think you were a sleazy salesman trying to upsell her with something she doesn't really need, like that $100 tripod the last one foisted off on her that she hasn't even used once.

Besides, auto-adjust makes those dark areas look brighter, and it only takes one click in Picassa.

Cheers,

b&


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## ecka (Jul 13, 2012)

TrumpetPower! said:


> ecka said:
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> > Simple is perfect. Or maybe that's just me...
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Yes, I'll be just another unsatisfied customer, who would buy a FF mirrorless camera from whatever manufacturer that actually make such a camera, and then sell my Canon toys the next day .



> The target audience for mirrorless (again, think of soccer moms) won't put up with the extra expense for full frame, and the target audience for full frame (wedding pros and the like) couldn't give a damn about camera size and will laugh at you if you suggest they can do without the viewfinder.
> 
> I feel your pain, but Canon doesn't....
> 
> b&



Who decided that there has to be only one Canon mirrorless? Why not 2 or 3 ... and one of those could be FF


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## c.d.embrey (Jul 13, 2012)

ecka said:


> Simple is perfect. Or maybe that's just me...



No, I agree, for most things (including photography), simple is best.

But when it comes to discussions on fora (like Canon Rumors), *simpleminded* rules the day 

WhyTF are we discussing the IQ of the 5D3 when the subject is an APS-C Mirrorless camera (that may or may-not be announced). 

WTF have Big Whites got to do with mirrorless cameras ??? Most photographers don't shoot BIF. The longest lens I use on APS-C is an 85mm f/1.8, so the rumored APS-C Mirrorless will be OK, for me.

BTW, I couldn't care less about your big hands


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## briansquibb (Jul 13, 2012)

ecka said:


> I believe you . However, when I don't need high image quality, I don't even need a big sensor camera for that shot, P&S or a smartphone would do. When I look at all the 5D2 features, I realize that I don't really need a DSLR. What I need is FF mirrorless. If only Leica M9 had LiveView, EVF and was like 4 times cheaper : ...
> For example, I never (or like once a year) use P, Av, Tv, B, CA or AUTO. All I want is C1,C2 and M mode + autoISO, autoSS, autoF settings *in it*. So, it is possible to integrate the whole mode dial into the ON/OFF switch  and add a 3rd dial + some buttons instead. Simple is perfect. Or maybe that's just me...



So you want a low IQ P&S with 1 series controls?


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## TrumpetPower! (Jul 13, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > I believe you . However, when I don't need high image quality, I don't even need a big sensor camera for that shot, P&S or a smartphone would do. When I look at all the 5D2 features, I realize that I don't really need a DSLR. What I need is FF mirrorless. If only Leica M9 had LiveView, EVF and was like 4 times cheaper : ...
> ...



Actually, I think most people want the same thing I do: a pocketable integrated-lens design with a full-sized 645-format hundred-megapickle sensor and a TS-E 12-1200 f/0.95 IS AF that does 30 FPS with a million-shot RAW buffer, and it should cost $49.95 before rebates.

The only real debate here is over which compromises people would be happiest with, and we're seeing that the things people here care most about are the things that Canon's PowerShot and Rebel customers care least about, and vice-versa.

So it's no wonder that the mirrorless camera will be a huge disappointment to the peanut gallery while simultaneously becoming Canon's best-selling, most profitable line of cameras.

Cheers,

b&


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## ecka (Jul 14, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> So you want a low IQ P&S with 1 series controls?



No. Why?
Do you want one?


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## ecka (Jul 14, 2012)

TrumpetPower! said:


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You are overreacting . Most P&S users do not care about what brand cameras they use ...  and they don't post about it online.


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## Sith Zombie (Jul 14, 2012)

TrumpetPower! said:


> briansquibb said:
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> > Actually, I think most people want the same thing I do: a pocketable integrated-lens design with a full-sized 645-format hundred-megapickle sensor
> ...


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## Lee Jay (Jul 14, 2012)

TrumpetPower! said:


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?????

I have $15k in camera gear, and I have an Elph 500HS in my pocket (wonderful camera for it's size, by the way - 24-105 equivalent, f/2 at the wide end, and usable up to ISO 1600), a D20 for use in the water, and an SX260HS for my wife. I think most people like me that also want a pocket camera to have with them at all times won't put up with a near-useless cell phone camera.


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## c.d.embrey (Jul 14, 2012)

Lee Jay said:


> ?????
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> I have $15k in camera gear, and I have an Elph 500HS in my pocket ... I think most people like me that also want a pocket camera to have with them at all times won't put up with a near-useless cell phone camera.



Seems like you are a *Photo Enthusiast*, and *not the target audience* for camera phones. Just don't be under the illusion that *Low Cost P&S cameras* will be made forever. Once the market shrinks to a size that is unprofitable, these Low Cost P&S cameras will join the Dodo and Passenger Pigeon on the extinct list  Those P&S cameras that survive will be like the $649.95 Sony Cyber-shot RX100.


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