# Canon Disappointment



## Magnardo (Mar 28, 2015)

Hi everyone,..
I need some opinions.

When Canon came up with the 5D Mark III, I made the switch from Nikon to Canon and bought a bunch of Canon gear.
Canon 5d MArk III, CAnon 7D, Canon 580 Ex flash, Canon 430ex Flash, Canon 85 1.2, Canon 135 F2, Canon 100 2.8, Canon 40 2.8, Canon 35 f 1.2, Canon 17-55 F2.8IS.

The Canon 7D was bought in March 2013.
Was mainly intended for back up.
I did not use it much. Maybe less then 500 shutter actuations.
Mainly it sat in weather sealed bag.
In November 2014 we went to Hawaii for vacation and I decided to bring the 7D with the 17-55 for the vacation photos.
When we got there the camera had developed a depression and would not turn on.
I checked it at home , before departure, and only thought the batteries were dead and that was the reason.
Had two batteries, fully charged them both, none would turn the camera on.
I called Canon and they told me to send it in.

They told me that the circuit board is bad and needs to be replaced for $569.
I complained that the camera has barely been used , never dropped, and mainly kept in a sealed bag.
Only left the house twice.
They could check the shutter actuations which should prove that.
The only way this camera could break is if there was something faulty to begin with, and that, in turn, makes it their responsibility.
They said that they checked with their repair people and told me that the camera's circuit board can also stop functioning, if submerged under water.
I told them that it is very easy for them to check if there is water damage and I will guarantee there is none.
That's the first thing they do at an Apple store if you return an Apple phone and it takes them 5 minutes.
I am sure Canon has the same technology.

Then the operator got back on the line and said they will take the $219 off for labor from the repair price but that's the best they can do. Also claimed that cameras break due to condensation. Ended up paying for it because otherwise it would be a paperweight.

Now,.. A camera sold for $1500 by Canon. 
A camera that is professional weather sealed.
A camera that was barely used. Around 500 shutter actuations.
A camera that was stored in a professional weather sealed Tamarac bag.
How could it break?


You have to pay for repair costs of $350 reduced as a courtesy from $569.
....For a camera that right now gets sold by BH for $750.
How is that fair?

Forget about the lost memories that were lost by trusting on Canon reliability and the quality of their products.

HOW CAN ANYONE BUY OR RECOMMEND CANON PRODUCTS TO ANYONE THEY DO NOT HATE?


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## Marsu42 (Mar 28, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> In November 2014 we went to Hawaii for vacation and I decided to bring the 7D with the 17-55 for the vacation photos. [...] A camera that is professional weather sealed.



Bad news, buddy: Your camera is not weather sealed at all, because a camera consists of a body and a lens - and the latter isn't, leaving you with a big, gaping hole on the front. And even "if", it wouldn't be "professional", that's 1d or 7d2 level.



Magnardo said:


> Then the operator got back on the line and said they will take the $219 off for labor from the repair price but that's the best they can do. Also claimed that cameras break due to condensation. Ended up paying for it because otherwise it would be a paperweight.



That's very nice of them, usually they don't give away money like that. Any water damage is on you, full stop. And it's probability, you can be lucky for a long time, and it can hit you on the first shot.



Magnardo said:


> HOW CAN ANYONE BUY OR RECOMMEND CANON PRODUCTS TO ANYONE THEY DO NOT HATE?



Absolutely: Any product that matches the purpose you intend to use it for. In your case, you'd better go Pentax as a backup as those have good sealing for a moderate price, or an actually water*proof* camera.

Note that I'm not a Canon fanboi, I find they're really lacking in sealing - for example the level of sealing on expensive non-L lenses and bodies of a $2000+ camera like the 6d is a joke. But then again, it's no secret Canon doesn't have good "value" below their pro-line products - fortunately, the market offers alternatives.


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## Magnardo (Mar 28, 2015)

There is no water damage.
You did not read.

I did not use that camera. 
500 shutter actuations is basically a fart by camera standards.

They said that water can damage the circuit board and I told them that no water ever came close to that camera.
They can easily check for that with their water damage detector.

That camera for it's entire life, sat mostly in a bag, unused.
It was taken out of the house twice and left unused in the bag.

I just said that both were weather sealed just to highlight my point.
Both manufacturers claim that about their products.

They said condensation,...can damage it.
In the end it was a crap product that did not work.


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## Magnardo (Mar 28, 2015)

Also the 7D spent it's life being the roommate of the 5d Mark III inside my house.
Although the 5d was the more active of the two,... it works fine.
Both cameras have similar weather sealing.

The claim for Condensation is bull.
I do not even fully understand what condensation is,... but if there was some, it should affect both cameras.
I own Fujifilm and Canon now.
I have owned Nikon before.

Never, ever have I had any camera break due to Condensation or ever heard of anybody that claimed that.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 28, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> Both cameras have similar weather sealing.



They do? I wouldn't know, I never have screwed open my cameras to have a look.



Magnardo said:


> The claim for Condensation is bull. I do not even fully understand what condensation is



Please do consider these two statements in conjunction and what sense the first one makes in light of the second.

Alas, I very much understand you being upset with something breaking just like that that you might have considered bullet-proof. But then again, I'm not Canon cps or a Canon dealer trying to defend a product.



Magnardo said:


> Never, ever have I had any camera break due to Condensation or ever heard of anybody that claimed that.



You have now, and Google is your friend (if you're not a civil rights activist). Condensation and a camera killer is a big issue when taking a camera from relative cold to relative warmth, esp. if the warm environment is damp.

The problem is that the water condensates *inside* the camera and doesn't need to make it through the seals in liquid state. And the corrosion damage can kill your camera weeks or months after the fact. Yes, that's physics for you (i.e. a huge repair bill) :-o


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## agierke (Mar 28, 2015)

Long periods of inactivity can also be electronic killers. using electronics as little as once a month can ward off the type of failure you experienced. Did you put silica gel packs in the camera bag while storing the 7d? If you didn't that's where you went wrong.

sry you had to learn this the hard way. I actually think canons response was pretty generous and sympathetic. I wonder what nik ons repair response would have been?

I have watched various cameras and lenses deteriorate considerably fast due to inactivity and improper storage. Time and inactivity is a powerful destructive force. Do some googling, educate yourself on the risks, be better prepared in the future.


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## sunnyVan (Mar 28, 2015)

If you don't plan on using the camera for a long time you should remove the battery and keep it moisture free by inserting descicant bags. If there's moisture to begin with and you put it in a sealed bag and the battery is not removed then bad things will certainly happen.


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## IgotGASbadDude (Mar 28, 2015)

Hey, I'm in the same situation only at a VERY larger scale.

I purchased a Dodge Ram 1500 in April 2011. Brand new 2011 model. It currently has exactly 6,000 miles on it.

If that thing is factory defective I'm going to be financially screwed. But I won't blame Dodge even if the problem is their fault.

The warranty time has expired and I can only blame myself for letting it sit these four years.  I should have ignored the HORRIBLE gas mileage it gets and put some miles on it.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Mar 28, 2015)

The liquid water could be prevented from entering the camera lens a sealed weather is connected.
But the water in a gaseous state (humidity) enters into any camera.

Suppose that one day you switched lenses in an environment with high humidity, salinity, corrosive gases, etc., and then put the camera for 10 months. This air "contaminated" would have been confined inside the camera, eroding the circuits.

Watch this video where 7D is subjected to cruel tests and survived.

https://youtu.be/RCT-YMgjm9k


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## East Wind Photography (Mar 28, 2015)

agierke said:


> Long periods of inactivity can also be electronic killers. using electronics as little as once a month can ward off the type of failure you experienced. Did you put silica gel packs in the camera bag while storing the 7d? If you didn't that's where you went wrong.
> 
> sry you had to learn this the hard way. I actually think canons response was pretty generous and sympathetic. I wonder what nik ons repair response would have been?
> 
> I have watched various cameras and lenses deteriorate considerably fast due to inactivity and improper storage. Time and inactivity is a powerful destructive force. Do some googling, educate yourself on the risks, be better prepared in the future.



Generally speaking if you cant store with silica gel, it's best to not store them in a camera bag. Particularly one that's sealed. It's also best not to store them with the lens on it. You are trapping any moisture and humidity absorbed by the bag or in the camera. Other things can give off gases as well. Things such as alkaline or lithium ion batteries can emit gases just sitting and slowly draining over time. If those are trapped in a sealed bag everything gets exposed.

Weather sealed does not mean water or gas sealed.

Either way he ended up with a good deal on the repair and was still cheaper than buying a replacement camera.


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## East Wind Photography (Mar 28, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> Hi everyone,..
> I need some opinions.
> 
> When Canon came up with the 5D Mark III, I made the switch from Nikon to Canon and bought a bunch of Canon gear.
> ...



If the 7d was a backup to your 5diii how is that you have lost memories by trusting on canon reliability? Your 5diii should have reasonably filled that vacancy.


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## unfocused (Mar 28, 2015)

There is only one thing I would add to the comments here: Just because the 5DIII has not failed yet, that doesn't mean it won't.

The OP makes a point of saying the two were stored in identical conditions and one failed and one didn't. But, what we don't know is if the 5DIII also has condensation inside and it's either not in an area that will cause failure or has not deteriorated to the point yet of causing failure. 

Learn from your mistake and change your storage method for all your equipment.


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## LDS (Mar 28, 2015)

unfocused said:


> The OP makes a point of saying the two were stored in identical conditions and one failed and one didn't.



Not identical. One was used and thereby the bag opened and the camera removed from the bag. It is true that if you want to preserver something in anything "sealed", you have to ensure that 1) whatever "environment" you start with is "clean" 2) nothing inside the sealing can contaminate the environment later, or there are facilities to remove the contaminant(s). Otherwise the sealing is actually dangerous because it doesn't let airflow remove contaminants.
Camera and lenses are not sold in "weather sealed" boxes because beside being more expensive, it would need a really complex packaging in a "clean environment" to ensure the sealing doesn't act against the camera instead of preserving it, and with very little advantages unless the boxes are kept in an harsh environment.
The camera manual, for long conservation, suggests a cool, dry place with sufficient airflow (not a weather sealed box), and to activate the camera periodically. Also, suggests a check before using it, especially for something important.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 28, 2015)

LDS said:


> The camera manual, for long conservation, suggests a cool, dry place with sufficient airflow (not a weather sealed box)



I do store my gear in waterproof (Pelican Storm) cases, with desiccant cartridges. But I use my gear - the cases don't stay unopened for more than a few days. 




LDS said:


> ...suggests a check before using it, especially for something important.



+1 Reading the OP, it sounds like it failed to turn on before the trip, he assumed it was dead batteries and then packed the kit, charged them at the destination and the camera still wouldn't turn on. If so, he has no one but himself to blame.


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## martti (Mar 28, 2015)

Looks like you've been sold a bad camera.
If you had been using it, you would have noticed the problem before the warranty expired.
That's basically what warranties are for. 
You had not so you did not and the warranty expired.
Sorry for your holiday pictures but you had a deal with Canon and you screwed it up.

In similar cases, I have been able to twist the arm if the question was of two weeks but longer than that, no way.


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## Dylan777 (Mar 28, 2015)

I understand OP frustration. 

On the other side we all MUST understand how a business needs to be operated, especially a product is no longer in warranty window.


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## unfocused (Mar 28, 2015)

LDS said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > The OP makes a point of saying the two were stored in identical conditions and one failed and one didn't.
> ...



Yes. True. My point was in response to this statement: _I do not even fully understand what condensation is,... but if there was some, it *should affect both* cameras._

I was just trying to make the simple point that just because the 5DIII did not fail (yet), he isn't home free. If the conditions were sufficient to cause the 7D to fail due to condensation, then I'd be making sure that I changed where and how I stored all my equipment, instead of just assuming that one was defective – it might just be the canary in the mine.


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## TeT (Mar 28, 2015)

Strike it up to bad luck ...

Pretty cool that Canon ate part of the labor for you. I am surprised that you got that out of them.


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## Magnardo (Mar 28, 2015)

Really,...it is not cool.
Because if that part really costs $350, then Canon makes no money on their cameras.
Probably the production price of a Canon 7D does not exceed $500.

I see that everyone here thinks Canon is great, no matter what.
Fact is, I have a few cameras,...all stored in identical conditions, none of them broke because of condensation.
Not the Nikon F5, Not the Nikon Fm3A, Not the NIKONOS V, Not The Fujifilm XT1, Not the Fujifilm 100T, Not The Canon Rebel XTi.
I guess condensation is not that bad inside my house.

Another thing is,.... When a camera is weather sealed,...You should be able to shoot with it in a rainforest and it should work fine because that is why you pay a ton of money for it.

It is very nice to see how someone has disinterested opinions about something that did not really happen to them.
If I would be mean,..I would say,...I hope this will happen to you soon, so I can return the liquid advice you gave me.
It is very important to be in someone else's shoes to understand their vantage point.
But I will not wish this on any of you because it is awful.

It is nothing funny when you pay $1500 for a professional weather sealed camera and 17 months later is unusable.
Then you pay another $350 to fix it and , as such, you end up paying $1850 for a camera that sell right now for $750.

When I will need to buy another camera, I will surely consider Canon at the top of my list.
I need a lot of cameras for a game of DODGECANON.
This game will consist in a random person throwing Canon cameras at another dude,...and the Dude is supposed to dodge them all.

Now, We live in a time where all major firms, hire professional writers with fake user names, to address negative reviews and reviewers in a very efficient manner.

Cannon Rumors seems like the perfect place to meet these guys.

I understood from all these opinions that it was my fault,.... and I already do apologize to myself,..... 
...,for buying Canon.

Thank you for your time.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Mar 28, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> Now, We live in a time where all major firms, hire professional writers with fake user names, to address negative reviews and reviewers in a very efficient manner.
> 
> Cannon Rumors seems like the perfect place to meet these guys.


Hey? I want my payment for defending Canon ...


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 28, 2015)

If you bought the camera with a credit card, some of them (AMEX) double the manufacturers warranty, so it might still have a warranty.


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## iseerings (Mar 28, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> Another thing is,.... When a camera is weather sealed,...You should be able to shoot with it in a rainforest and it should work fine because that is why you pay a ton of money for it.



I understand that you're upset but the truth is none of the lenses you listed is weathersealed. So it doesn't matter if the body is weathersealed or not if the lens isn't.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 28, 2015)

iseerings said:


> I understand that you're upset but the truth is none of the lenses you listed is weathersealed. So it doesn't matter if the body is weathersealed or not if the lens isn't.



I agree, but imho "doesn't matter" is a bit strong, it's certainly nice if the back and top buttons are sealed because that's where rain hits if you point the camera downwards. And even a non-sealed lens on a sealed camera has half the rubber ring, it's just missing the companion on the other side.



Magnardo said:


> Probably the production price of a Canon 7D does not exceed $500.



And where does the money for developing these things come from? 



iseerings said:


> Another thing is,.... When a camera is weather sealed,...You should be able to shoot with it in a rainforest and it should work fine because that is why you pay a ton of money for it.



With this attitude, you're in for lots of further disappointments in the future. Try to grow up a bit, it helps understanding the world around you a bit better. And please don't waste other people's time if you just want to vent your frustration.


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## old-pr-pix (Mar 28, 2015)

OP, I somewhat understand your frustration; but it seems you knew you had a problem before you left and didn't address it. Cameras need to be used. I learned that long ago in the film era. I had a T-90 that was one of five bodies I used. The T-90 had a reputation of being very rugged, its nickname was "the tank." However, mine would occasionally sit idle for a couple months because I was using other bodies. One day after an idle period I decided it was the best body for a project so I grabbed it; but, the shutter wouldn't fire. Changed battery and all it did was show error code. Canon service cost $120 and the repair was "dirty shutter release mechanism." The same thing happened multiple times at $120 a pop! The last time I spent 1/2 hour on the phone with actual service technician trying to figure out the issue. I kept asking how does the release mechanism get dirt in it sitting on my shelf? He kept saying all they did to fix it was clean it and reassemble, no new parts. Turns out mine wasn't the only T-90 with just that issue. Someone even started a business fixing T-90's with that failure. Yet, most T-90's worked flawlessly for years. I always assumed the problem was residual magnetism, not actual dirt, causing the shutter to not release. Of course, the more often it failed the less likely I was to use it. Too bad because it was a fantastic body for that time. I loved the multi-spot metering and highlight/shadow bias controls. Moral of the story... use your gear consistently, don't let it sit idle.


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## fish_shooter (Mar 28, 2015)

old-pr-pix said:


> OP, I somewhat understand your frustration; but it seems you knew you had a problem before you left and didn't address it. Cameras need to be used. I learned that long ago in the film era. I had a T-90 that was one of five bodies I used. The T-90 had a reputation of being very rugged, its nickname was "the tank." However, mine would occasionally sit idle for a couple months because I was using other bodies. One day after an idle period I decided it was the best body for a project so I grabbed it; but, the shutter wouldn't fire. Changed battery and all it did was show error code. Canon service cost $120 and the repair was "dirty shutter release mechanism." The same thing happened multiple times at $120 a pop! The last time I spent 1/2 hour on the phone with actual service technician trying to figure out the issue. I kept asking how does the release mechanism get dirt in it sitting on my shelf? He kept saying all they did to fix it was clean it and reassemble, no new parts. Turns out mine wasn't the only T-90 with just that issue. Someone even started a business fixing T-90's with that failure. Yet, most T-90's worked flawlessly for years. I always assumed the problem was residual magnetism, not actual dirt, causing the shutter to not release. Of course, the more often it failed the less likely I was to use it. Too bad because it was a fantastic body for that time. I loved the multi-spot metering and highlight/shadow bias controls. Moral of the story... use your gear consistently, don't let it sit idle.



Good story! It may also be a matter of distributing lubricant over the shutter parts that is done when the camera is triggered - note the problem of lubricant specks on sensors. 

The shutter of my 1Ds2 failed with less than 70K actuations - got the exact # from Canon but do not recall it exactly right now. I bought it 2nd hand from another photographer because he hardly used it, less than 10K shots after several years. Then I started shooting with it and had it fail, a bit prematurely given the shutter rating, within two years. It is now still going strong but it gets several 10Ks worth of shots per year even as a back-up (I can shoot with more than one housing at a time).


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## Magnardo (Mar 28, 2015)

Mt Spokane Photography

Actually great advice,..I think it was bought with an Amex,.... I know for some electronic items they will double warranty. Just forgot about it. First helpful tip. Thank you.

iseerings,...The weather sealed conversation it is kind of futile because I only used it a few times to take pictures of my daughter around the house, indoors. Never tested or pushed it to the limit outdoors.


So it does not matter about the lenses used either. I only mentioned the weather sealed part in order to highlight the supposed durability of the camera. Also the camera did not sit unused for almost two years. I used it a few times every four months or so. 

Since it is the only camera that it is acting up, out of 8 cameras kept in identical conditions,..(I forgot about the Nikon f100) the only obvious reason for me is that it was a faulty piece of equipment to begin with and Canon should have honored the repair, especially since these cameras are selling for $750$ now. Every other opinion I consider biased.


Fact is they made $350,...and lost thousands, especially with their new line of products coming up,....because I dislike dishonesty and people that do not own up to their mistakes.
I also have a big mouth and know a few people in the industry.

It's like one of those restaurants that have served you bad food, I will never again eat there. 
It only takes one time for trust to be broken.
Money are very hard to come by now days,...When I will need to spend $1500,...."I will take my talents" elsewhere, until they will all disappoint me.

This was not a $450 camera. This was a very expensive camera that did not work.
Therein lies the big problem for me.

Thank you all for your help.
Goodbye Canon.

Canon = Buy at your own risk.


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## jhpeterson (Mar 28, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> Hi everyone,..
> I need some opinions.
> 
> When Canon came up with the 5D Mark III, I made the switch from Nikon to Canon and bought a bunch of Canon gear.
> ...


I hear your pain, Magnardo.
My area of specialization is boating, so I'm on the water 100 or so days each year. I'm very familiar with your situation. You might say I've owned some very expensive disposable cameras.
In November 2004 I took my first step into digital. Reluctant to pay $6000-8000 for a pro model, I bought a Canon 20D. (At the time I was using EOS-1V and 1-N film bodies.) I, too, paid $1500. I used it for no more than 200 shots, to get familiar with it, before bringing it with me on a trip to Central America the following month.
On the second day I used it on a rafting trip, the camera and 70-200/2.8 pulled out of a dry bag only when I safely could take shots. Barely an hour after I got ashore, I removed the camera from the bag. Both the viewfinder and the front element of the lens were covered with condensation AND it wasn't working. It still had fewer than 400 actuations.
Immediately, I set it in the late afternoon sun in hopes the equipment would dry out. I continued trying to get the moisture out throughout the rest of the trip, then, as soon as I got home, sent it to Canon Factory Service for repair. A few days later, I heard from them, telling me it could not be fixed. Not unexpectedly, I was upset. Something that was almost new, and that the dealer repeatedly told me would hold up for my line of work, a couple magnitudes more intense than what I put this camera through, was now worthless. I asked for a second opinion and got it. Their top technician confirmed the dismal diagnosis and sent me several pictures to back it up. Both camera and lens came back to me, reassembled, but nothing working. By selling the gear for parts, at least I was able to get something out of what I had spent close to $3500 for. 
And, I learned at least one thing from the experience: 
NEVER store your camera in a weather-sealed bag. As soon as you are able to find a dry location, take it out, as whatever moisture that may be in there is trapped and can't escape.
Since then, I've been most reluctant to purchase any piece of consumer-level electronic equipment. After that harsh dose of reality, I've stuck with 1D and 1DS bodies for nearly everything. For a short time I had a 5D2, but traded it in a private sale for a near-mint 7d plus cash, believing the latter was a better build, if only slightly. Over a span of ten months that camera had to be sent back to Canon four times for repairs. (Okay, three, but it got returned once because a circuit board hadn't been hooked up properly.) If it hadn't been for my CPS discount (I'm a Platinum member), it would have cost me more in fixes than I could have bought it new.
All my current gear is 1D series, except for a 6D that I bought primarily for low-light situations. And I'm very careful with that.
Reflecting back on this, I can't really fault Canon for what they'd done. Besides, they have great US-based customer support and, since that unfortunate situation, have always treated me very fairly. What I see as the real problem is the camera buyer wanting in their low-priced toys all the bells and whistles that are in the big boys kit. The expectation of getting a camera with nearly all the features of a pro-level model, but sold at a half, third or quarter of the price AND is repairable for much less than the original purchase is not a reasonable one. In today's global economy, where most everything is made to the standards of "good enough", consumer goods aren't built to last. These days, you have to figure most everything is disposable.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 28, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> It is very important to be in someone else's shoes to understand their vantage point.



Actually, you made it quite easy to understand your vantage point...by shouting it at us. 



Magnardo said:


> HOW CAN ANYONE BUY OR RECOMMEND CANON PRODUCTS TO ANYONE THEY DO NOT HATE?


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## fish_shooter (Mar 28, 2015)

BTW I had a Nikon D70 with only ~30K actuations die while sitting on the passenger seat of my pickup. I took some pictures then put it down and a little while later after having driven a few miles it would not come on. It was the first amateur grade camera owned by me since owning a Canon FTb and a Nikkormat FTN in the 1970's. This was a few years ago when the D70 relatively new. A friend of mine bought the first D Rebel about the same time and his camera died before mine. So I have avoided similar grade cameras since, though I did get the M 8).

Moral of story is that any camera can die. It may or may not be worth (~ 1/2 of the cost a new one (assuming your $750 is correct) is rather marginal IMHO) getting fixed given how fast D cameras depreciate. IMHO one should only buy to use and not sit on the shelf as a camera will lose value as each day passes. It is also very easy to "overbuy" given the frequent appearance of new and better models.


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## unfocused (Mar 28, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> I see that everyone here thinks Canon is great, no matter what....
> 
> ... When a camera is weather sealed,...You should be able to shoot with it in a rainforest and it should work fine because that is why you pay a ton of money for it.
> 
> ...



I think the mistake here is that people thought you wanted some advice and opinions on whether or not Canon had treated you fairly and what you could do to prevent this from happening again.

People provided advice and opinions, but they didn't meet your expectations.

That's the trouble with internet forums – they are very good places to get advice and share opinions, but not very good places if all you want is for people to agree with you.


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## Don Haines (Mar 28, 2015)

As a canoeist and a photographer, I know the dangers of water.... People think about immersion and rain, but forget about condensation, and that's the one that will most likely get you.

Pelican cases and dry bags are a fancy way of keeping your cameras wet. If you do not have a bag of desiccant thrown into the case or bag, you WILL get condensation and it WILL kill your gear.

You can take the best sealed camera body in the world, mount a "sealed" zoom lens on it, and unless it is a constant length lens, as you zoom in and out you are pumping air through your camera like a bellows. As temperatures fall, that moisture becomes condensation INSIDE your camera.... you really need to keep your gear somewhere where it can "breathe" and let the moist air out.


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## Valvebounce (Mar 29, 2015)

Hi Magnardo. 
As much as I sympathise with your situation, unfortunately the weatherproof bit is worthless, both as a statement and against condensation. Any piece of equipment is only weather / waterproof if accompanied by an IP XX rating, Canon, and very likely all removable lens cameras (I have not checked all the manuals hence likely) do not have an IP XX rating. If it has any opening it will be susceptible to condensation. 
By the way I understand your assertion that it was stored in a sealed environment , but in this instance I would think it is the very infrequent use that is as much of an issue, especially if you have ever connected your camera to any software that reads the internal temperature of the camera, this is often in the mid twenties, warm enough to dry the device of water vapour? 

Cheers, Graham.


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## RLPhoto (Mar 29, 2015)

I had great service from CPS and have recommended them to other photographers. I've never had any issues from them receiving loaner equipment or having my cameras fixed. Its possible you got a bad service tech and usually I'll call back again another time to find someone else. Its a shame your camera conked out at less that 1k actuation's but keep trying as you might find that one tech who'd be willing to waive some/all the fees, which he was already willing to do.


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## Don Haines (Mar 29, 2015)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Magnardo.
> As much as I sympathise with your situation, unfortunately the weatherproof bit is worthless, both as a statement and against condensation. Any piece of equipment is only weather / waterproof if accompanied by an IP XX rating, Canon, and very likely all removable lens cameras (I have not checked all the manuals hence likely) do not have an IP XX rating. If it has any opening it will be susceptible to condensation.
> By the way I understand your assertion that it was stored in a sealed environment , but in this instance I would think it is the very infrequent use that is as much of an issue, especially if you have ever connected your camera to any software that reads the internal temperature of the camera, this is often in the mid twenties, warm enough to dry the device of water vapour?
> 
> Cheers, Graham.


Nikon used to have the Nikonos IV, an interchangeable lens UNDERWATER camera..... but nobody in their right mind would use it out of water.....


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 29, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> Valvebounce said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Magnardo.
> ...



The Nikon AW-1 is a MILC that's waterproof to 15 m.


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## Hillsilly (Mar 29, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> I see that everyone here thinks Canon is great, no matter what.


Yeah - you'll tend to get that on a site aimed at Canon enthusiasts. 

I hope you get to the bottom of the problem. Given that you say the camera has a had little use, it would be disappointing to find out now that you are experiencing a problem that might have been identifiable form day 1. FYI, Canon warranty terms vary worldwide. For example, in Australia, Canon provides a 2 year warranty on all DSLRs. So, if you can show it was a manufacturing issue, you can at least ask why it would be a free repair in some places, but not others. And, if it is true that Canon USA is under pressure from grey market imports, providing better warranty support is one way to combat that.


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## jdramirez (Mar 29, 2015)

I can sympathize. I bought a cheap after rebate Polaroid dvd player once and when I opened up the box around six or so months the dvd player was doa. So I called, explained it was never used and the warranty, only a three month warranty, while expired, should still be honored. They didn't... I didn't repair it...

And I'm thinking, I don't think I have purchased a single Polaroid product in the past ten years. And I have purchased around $50,000 in Canon gear... Maybe $3000 in Nikon. 

And another related story... My first digital camera was an Olympus and it had a 1 year warranty and the usb out stopped working, so I called them and they refused to do the repair because I didn't have the receipt, though I did register it. They didn't fix it and I haven't bought a single Olympus product in the past 11 years. (Before this I was naive that a receipt was required... I've since learned my lesson)

Canon tried to meet you half way... I might have been satisfied with their offer. As consumers, we have the final say on the matter.. But the problem is, if we get angry too often we are going to leave ourselves with very few options.


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## JEL (Mar 29, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> Hi everyone,..
> I need some opinions.
> 
> In November 2014 we went to Hawaii for vacation and I decided to bring the 7D with the 17-55 for the vacation photos.
> ...



Just speculating here; if it was stored for that 1½ year with the battery attached, isn't it likely that will destroy the battery? I believe I've read in some manual that leaving a battery inside will over-drain it and make it impossible to re-charge that battery again.

That could account for why the 7D wouldn't fire up before your holiday to Hawaii (how lucky are you! hawaii, must be a dream going there  )

Second; maybe the camera got damage during the travel to Hawaii?
Assuming you flew there (are there even any non-special charters that sail people to Hawaii?), then maybe the 7D was damaged by airport-Xrays or shaking/airpressure changes during the flight?

Like I said, I'm just speculating as to what MIGHT have caused your 7D to stop working. It is ofcourse possible you had a half-bad 7D from the start and the problem slowly evolved. That does indeed happen (kind of like the backside navigator-button on the 5D3 that some have reported falls off. Mine hasn't fallen off yet, but since those reports I do ofcourse worry about it (and treat it all the more gentle  ))

All that said; Canon is rich enough that they could have the best customer-service in the world, but obviously they're a business and not your friend. Let's not kid ourselves here. Businesses don't care about you! That's just a fact (even if you are in pain and have spent all your money buying their product)
I'm not sponsored by Canon. They do not pay me in any way. I've paid for my Canon products myself and I do not in any way advertise for Canon. I couldn't care less about Canon or any other commercial company. I treat them the way they treat me; ME FIRST, THEM SECOND! There's no fairness involved, just the law. So remember all this the next time you vote for government; vote for somebody who will regulate business instead of letting them get away with whatever they want. That's all you can do at this juncture I think.

Good luck with your future electronics 

PS: I do concur with what's been said about storage in sealed bags: Don't do it. Keep your equipment out in the open room-air. Leave your bag open. An unzipped camera-bag for example. If you don't want dust on it, put a little towel over it or something. But don't seal it up


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## Magnardo (Mar 29, 2015)

If you take "neuroanatomist" out who was not very neuro,..and also "unfocused" who clearly was not focused,...I thank everyone for your opinions.

It helped. 
I did not know condensation was such a problem.

The 7D did not work a month before Hawaii, as my wife remembered. I tried too shoot something with it and assuming the batteries were dead I picked up the 5D Mark III. Same thing happened before we left for Hawaii, I again assumed the batteries were dead and, as it takes same batteries as the 5d Mark III and again I though that I might have confused charged batteries with uncharged ones.
It has never crossed my mind, for 1 second, that a brand new camera can break through not using it.

Also 7D was not a cheap camera.
When I bought it, It was the best crop sensor camera in the world with identical body armor as 5D Mark III. 
And probably better at shooting video then the 5D Mark III.
It was way better then the comparable Nikon 300s.
As you all know Crop sensors have their advantages that's why it made this the perfect back up camera,..especially since, also, at that time the 17-55 2.8 was the only 2.8 lens that had IS incorporated and when converting,... it covered a greater range then the twice as expensive 24-70 2.8 without IS. And also it gave me the option to try the excellent Sigma 18-35 F1.8.

Paying $10.000 for a camera just feels like a waste of money so I never considered auctioning a kidney.
Also those cameras are a lot bigger and battery packs cannot be removed so size was an impediment.

Nikons V is the best underwater camera ever made. The 35 lens is an amphibian one and I think maybe the 80 lens (which I never owned),..the rest of the lenses are water only.

As for Canon, if they sell a camera they probably manufacture for $350-$500 for a price of $1500 they better make stuff that does not break through not usage and deal with the condensation issue, If they have one.

A while back the waterproof phones were thought a novelty when it was very cheap to make one by introducing some rubber seals. There are plenty of phones that have that technology without increasing price.
The only thing that stands in the way is the willingness to improve on a product.
That's it.
Same thing,... Before,...Electric cars or Hybrid cars could not be made, now they are everywhere.
Humans are only as great as the ceilings they impose on themselves. 
There are a lot of strong nonexistent obstacles that keep us from being excellent.

Canon who made a profit of at least $1000 on this camera can afford to fix it.
For me $350 means a whole lot less then it means for Canon. I am losing an extra $350 when Canon would still be profitable in the transaction they did with me. They would just win $650 instead of $1000.

In the long run, the way they behaved with me, will translate, in them not getting all the money they could get from me and actually transitioning it to their competitors. And the $350 they could have spent (and I strongly doubt that part costs them $350, more like $150), to win me as a customer for a long time, will be infinitely small compared to what they could have got, therefore what they lost.
So in regards to business techniques,...Not the smartest move Canon to maximize profit.

If I had a girlfriend that lied to me once, I was gone. 
No turning back. No reason to. People that lie once will lie again and again and again.
The rules were clear in the beginning.

When I buy a camera for a lot of money and I do not use it and I do not put it through abnormal circumstances, I expect it to work every time. I do not care about excuses. 
Same as I did not care what the girls had to say,.."I lied to you because",...Once trust it's gone it's gone!... and the life after becomes torture if you chose to continue,...so it's best to save both parties a lot of wasted energy.

Canon if you have a problem with condensation, and you want people to continue to buy your products, please make better cameras. The Technology exists to do so and it's not expensive, it just takes effort. Like having a decent camera on a phone, which everyone overlooked until it became a trend.

Also about professional trolls.
It is the biggest new thing in advertising.
There are a lot of companies with a comprehensive staff of, somewhat failed writers, operating many fake virtual identities that get hired to bail out bad products, be internet watch dogs, assassinate competitor's products or save celebrities from the public internet backlash when they do stupid things.
This is a multimillion dollar industry.

They are always easy to spot as they have funky uninspired and somewhat obvious names, they are extremely and unjustifiably active blog contributors, for someone that claims disinterest, and for the most part they do not have anything creative or intelligent to say, some of them personally attack the consumer who has a problem with the product they are paid to protect, and they never tackle the issue, others praise the manufacturer and talk about their great experiences with them, others recite from the latest commercial campaigns great stories of convenient and unverifiable greatness. 

If this is the latest trend, why would Canon fall behind the latest advertising trend?!
Honesty? Fairness? Accountability? 
Forget about it.

How about Rockwell, the biggest Nikon lover of all time, meticulously and suddenly reediting his strong- best in the world-opinions to reflect his new acquired love for Canon. Trust me, there are no more objective and unbiased product reviewers for a long time now. I know in detail how the companies buy them out. So as the old saying,... The thief is yelling the loudest "Catch the thief." Works the same for those who fart and quickly indignant, they blame others.

We live in the age where everything gets Sacrificed for Profit.
The Age where the only common denominator which everyone understands is making more and more money.
That is the only tool and explanation used to justify every single action or thought.
He, They, She ,Them,..were just trying to make more money.
Not cool, fellow friends.

For the real people involved in this,..I thank you all for your help.


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## sanj (Mar 29, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> Really,...it is not cool.
> Because if that part really costs $350, then Canon makes no money on their cameras.
> Probably the production price of a Canon 7D does not exceed $500.
> 
> ...



I believe in that too. BUT you must ALWAYS keep a lens attached on the camera. And a flash when the going gets wet. Did you store the camera with just the lens cap or a lens mounted on it? I think since Canon gave you a discount you should call this even and more on.


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## weixing (Mar 29, 2015)

Hi,
Although I sympathies your situation, but if you want a truth answer (truth always hurts), it's probably your fault if you don't include a suitable amount of desiccant inside the seal bag. When you brought a new electronics product, you always saw 1 or 2 small bags of desiccant inside the box... it's there for a reason.

By the way, *Weather sealed is not condensation proof* and I don't think there is any ILC that is condensation proof. 

Have a nice day.


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## gbchriste (Mar 29, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> Canon if you have a problem with condensation, and you want people to continue to buy your products, please make better cameras. The Technology exists to do so and it's not expensive, it just takes effort. Like having a decent camera on a phone, which everyone overlooked until it became a trend.



What you're demanding is physically impossible. Condensation is what occurs when water that has evaporated in to the atmosphere and now exists in the environment as a gas, re-condenses into liquid form, usually by coming in to contact with a surface that is colder than the surrounding air.

The only way to make the interior of anything condensation proof is make it air tight. But a camera built for typical use in the real world can never be air tight. 

You change lenses, you've just flooded the body with air - air that contains moisture in the form of evaporated water

You open the battery compartment, you've just introduced water-laden air

You open the memory card compartment, you've just introduced water-laden air

You expose the USB port, you're allowing the intrusion of water-laden air

There's nothing defective or substandard about the camera build.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 29, 2015)

gbchriste said:


> Magnardo said:
> 
> 
> > Canon if you have a problem with condensation, and you want people to continue to buy your products, please make better cameras. The Technology exists to do so and it's not expensive, it just takes effort. Like having a decent camera on a phone, which everyone overlooked until it became a trend.
> ...



No, it's not. Canon simply needs to hermetically seal all the openings in bodies and lenses, incorporate a vacuum pump into the body, and redesign the entire lineup to withstand a vacuum. Or maybe the technology exists to alter the laws of thermodynamics. 

Either way, it's not expensive, it just takes effort. :


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## Magnardo (Mar 29, 2015)

There are some of those little white packs in the camera bag. They have always been there.

So,..by that rational,...I can buy a $1500 camera every day and then, one day past the one year warranty, I would have to pay a ton of money to fix all of them and there is nothing anybody can do about it, because Condensation is an evil superhero. 

They make Sony Z3 phones and other devices where stuff is sealed,..Sealing stuff is fairly cheap if you want to do it. Z3 costs as much as the I phone and all the rest of them phones.

Like I said I have 8 different cameras in identical situations in the house. 
7 of them work. 
Every other electronic equipment in the house works.

Does the Condensation play favorites and was only targeting the poor 7D cause it was black?
I think not.

Stop the childish commentaries.
Thank you.


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## jdramirez (Mar 29, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> There are some of those little white packs in the camera bag. They have always been there.
> 
> So,..by that rational,...I can buy a $1500 camera every day and then, one day past the one year warranty, I would have to pay a ton of money to fix all of them and there is nothing anybody can do about it, because Condensation is an evil superhero.
> 
> ...



You sound a little petulent... and I have two little girls who can't be reasoned with when they decide to go nuts. It is an unfortunate situation... I would be upset too... zz vf,.l;[poliu re321q


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 29, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> Stop the childish commentaries.



You mean like the one with which you ended your opening post of this thread? :




Magnardo said:


> There are some of those little white packs in the camera bag. They have always been there.



How often do you replace them? The little packets can saturate in days. I use desiccant cartridges with indicator dye so I know when to replace/regenerate. 




Magnardo said:


> Does the Condensation play favorites and was only targeting the poor 7D cause it was black?
> I think not.



Did you not state the 7D went to Hawaii? Right now in Hawaii (at 6 AM) the relative humidity is 100% and the forecast temp today is 81 °F. If your camera is outside it will be filled with warm, humid air...when you bring it inside an air conditioned environment (hotel, car), that moisture in the air inside your camera will condense. Physics 101. 

Another point about moisture inside electronics - if it happens and a tiny amount of corrosion starts, it's like a time bomb with an unknown duration. If Canon accurately diagnosed the problem and it occurred while the 7D was being stored with other gear, that gear may be 'ticking' away on a countdown.


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## LDS (Mar 29, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> There are some of those little white packs in the camera bag. They have always been there.



Do you know they don't last forever because they can't simply make water disappear magically? Do you know they need to be regenerated or changed after a while? Do you know they work only against the chemicals they are designed to react with, and not everything?

You should stop being childish. You didn't store the camera as the manual tells. You didn't test the camera with know charged batteries. You bought it but didn't use it before the warranty expired. Sure, it could have been a faulty camera, it happens, with any brands, that's why usually a warranty is mandatory - in EU, it's two years. But if you don't use it and the warranty expires, it's your fault. The service center can only follow the rules.


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## jdramirez (Mar 29, 2015)

Any sympathy people llike me had for you is quickly disapting... so maybe you throttle back on the petulence.

If you purchased the 7d with a credit card within 2 years... your credit card may double the manufacturer warranty. 

Stop blaming Canon... because this could have happened with any manufacturer.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 29, 2015)

LDS said:


> ...a warranty is mandatory - in EU, it's two years.



In the US, the manufacturer gets to determine the warranty coverage, if any. I think it's part of the "liberty" thing… You know, the American way – life, liberty, and the pursuit of getting others to pay for our mistakes.


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## Magnardo (Mar 29, 2015)

See,..The funny thing is neuroanatomist is an extremely active busy little bee and full of adversary comments, without anything positive or of real value to say, just looking for faults in something I might have done or said,...Extremely interesting for someone that does not really care. He pretends that he did not read that the camera stopped working before going to Hawaii. Anyways,... Hope your efforts get compensated accordingly. I have described your type of employee above.

The second funny thing is,...Everyone talks about Condensation like it's the Michael Jackson of reasons for why a circuit board goes bad. That was the rabbit hole we all got sucked into. And I was guilty of that myself.

Fact is, only Canon said it was Condensation initially.
Is it the most probable cause?!
Probably not.

That is the "Everybody weaves" of law enforcement.
When I lived in Ohio, prior to 9/11, police had to have a probable cause to stop a motorist when driving.
They always had it readily available,...."Everybody weaves!" 
Hard to prove otherwise.

See, when the consumer has a problem, the manufacturer (And they all do the same - not just Canon, and after Jobs died Apple is doing same thing) instead of trying to find the cause of something and assess the situation objectively they always assume the consumer is to blame.

So even if something has a 2% chance of happening, and some other thing has a 5% of happening, and another thing has a 13% of happening,...they first go through only the list of things that makes them not assume responsibility. Going for the unlikely 20% that could place the fault with the consumer, instead the obvious 80%.

So then, the consumer has to prove their innocence , for the 20%, completely beyond reasonable doubt, and if they are able to do so, only then the manufacturer makes good and assumes responsibility.

Every once in a while the manufacturer comes up with a magic word like Condensation and then, Everybody weaves.

First they said that cameras's circuit boards , if submerged underwater, stop working.
I said Please check for water damage, I guarantee there is none.
That's the 2% they started with.

But then, it came the magic cloud,...Condensation.
The unprovable, all encompassing, mysterious cause from out of space.

Fact is that most likely cause for which my camera stopped working is not Condensation but Bad Circuitry, Bad Wiring etc. But that would mean that it's not my fault,..so let's concentrate on Condensation.

Fact is, again,.... I have 7 working cameras in the house.
Likely Commonsense Conclusion? Condensation not bad.

Is this Condensation a common problem?
Most likely not,...otherwise most cameras would break right away and nobody would buy them.

Ps. The guy with two girls,..You know what I did after I made my baby girl?! I made a boy. He is less petulant.

The idea is,.. I already paid the money. Canon made their $1500 profit for their garbage 7D. 
This was mainly a conversation about fair and assuming responsibility, more then anything.
Thank you.


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## Magnardo (Mar 29, 2015)

Take a look neuroanatomist has over 15000 posts,...Hmmm,...Also take a look at the nearest guy that has anything to say. Not a contest. I would suggest getting a new identity and starting fresh with the negative comments. This identity of yours is compromised. 

So easy to spot dudes with ulterior motives.


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## Magnardo (Mar 29, 2015)

Neuroanatomist 15768 comments,... Probably most of them negative harassments,....busy little bee,..I would suggest you refresh your identity and reinvent yourself. This one is compromised. We all know what you are here for: Life , liberty and the pursuit of financial rewards through negative observations.

Take a look at the next commentator,..Nobody comes close.


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## Don Haines (Mar 29, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> I did not know condensation was such a problem.
> <snip>
> 
> Canon if you have a problem with condensation, and you want people to continue to buy your products, please make better cameras. The Technology exists to do so and it's not expensive, it just takes effort. Like having a decent camera on a phone, which everyone overlooked until it became a trend.



Condensation is a HUGE problem, and it is with everyone, not just Canon. The basic problem is that you can not have a sealed system and interchange lenses, as every time you swap a lens, you break the seal. It also means that you can not have lenses that extend when they zoom or focus, as that means air pumping in and out of the system..

You could cover the circuit boards with corrosion resistant coatings ( they already do) and coat the connectors between boards with gold (corrosion resistant, and also already done), but it still happens. You could encase everything in some form of epoxy, but then you loose any chance of servicing.... And then we have the mechanicals like shutters and mirrors that can not be protected that way. 

pall this helps, but does not solve the problem. For that, you need either constant heat, or an unbroken seal

This is a Canon forum, so we just hear about this problem on Canon cameras, but the people on the Nikon forums and the 4/3 forums are suffering too.


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## Magnardo (Mar 29, 2015)

It's fine.
Never heard of it before, so it's not as frequent as it probably seems.
Everyone hears loudly of the bad cases.
Probably like with airplanes going down,... It looks bad, even though statistically they claim it is very safe.
It just sucks to be in a downed 7D airplane.

Hope the 5D does not really crap on me.
I really like it.
5D Mark III with the 85 f 1.2 is , sometimes, better then sex.
My birthdate is 5th of March. 
Match made in heaven. 

I was using the XT1 recently and I really liked it, but when I picked up the 5D again, it felt retroactively, like I was underwater the whole time and could not breathe.
XT1 is a really good looking slow witted girl.
A pleasure to play with, but requires hard work, and, after a while, it becomes old.

5D? 
The whole package.

Thank you for your help.
I've learned things.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Mar 29, 2015)

Concrete fact:

A camera outside the warranty period has stopped working: The owner must bear the costs to repair, or give up the camera. :'(

Or that consumer ignores who left his camera long inactive inside the bag, and makes comments abuse towards people say he was wrong. :-X


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## Vivid Color (Mar 29, 2015)

To Magnardo,

I wasn't going to weigh in until you made that awful statement about your children in general and your daughter in particular. Girls don't act differently from boys because they are girls. So please get that sexist thinking out of your head. And don't tell me you were just trying to be funny because it just isn't. Children in one family may act differently from one another because they are different people with different personalities and different brains and different makeups. Children also learn what they live so think about the type of behavior you are modeling for them. 

As I understand the facts as you presented them, you discovered a problem with your camera outside it's warranty period. You also stated that you stored your camera in a manner that in itself could've caused a problem. So in my mind, Canon was pretty generous at giving you a substantial reduction in repair fees, especially if you are not a member of CPS. 

I get that it must've been upsetting to get to Hawaii and find out your camera was not functioning. But you admit you didn't thoroughly test things before you left the house. And even if you had, and everything worked, things sometime break at the most inopportune moments. Stuff happens – – own it, and take responsibility.You say you have seven other cameras in your house. Either call your credit card company and see if you are covered under an extended warranty, decide to pay for the repair bill yourself, or go use one of your other cameras. Those are your options – – and more ranting and venting won't change that. It's time to go to resignation on this.


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## WillT (Mar 29, 2015)

I feel your pain, I have a 100mm L at Canon service center right now being fixed for a loose IS. I used the lens 3 times in a few years and it has always been babied compared to all my other lens. Never dropped or banged around. 270 to fix as a CPS gold member


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## unfocused (Mar 29, 2015)

Just when I'm about ready to hang up Canon Rumors Forum and find something more constructive to do, a thread like this pops up and I'm hooked again. So entertaining.

Magnardo's claims that people here get paid by Canon, started me wondering though: First, how can I get a job like that?; and second, maybe Magnardo is actually getting paid by Canon Rumors Guy to boost the site. Maybe he doesn't even exist and Craig is laughing all the way to the bank? 

Even if that's the case, though, it's worth it for the entertainment value. Well played, Canon Rumors Guy! Well played!


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## East Wind Photography (Mar 29, 2015)

unfocused said:


> Just when I'm about ready to hang up Canon Rumors Forum and find something more constructive to do, a thread like this pops up and I'm hooked again. So entertaining.
> 
> Magnardo's claims that people here get paid by Canon, started me wondering though: First, how can I get a job like that?; and second, maybe Magnardo is actually getting paid by Canon Rumors Guy to boost the site. Maybe he doesn't even exist and Craig is laughing all the way to the bank?
> 
> Even if that's the case, though, it's worth it for the entertainment value. Well played, Canon Rumors Guy! Well played!



So by that same claim, Nikon or Sony could be paying people to just get on here and post complaints without asking for real advice. Make the canon folks think about changing vendors.


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## Magnardo (Mar 29, 2015)

Vivid,..boys have a different make up then girls.
Everything about the way they operate is different. 
Even the way that their brains operate is different.
They start looking at things from a different vantage point.
Not better or worse, but different.
No point in denying that.

People worried constantly about racism are completely racist themselves.
People worried constantly about sexism are completely sexist themselves.

I made no statement about my kids.
The other guy did.
The boy is three months but compared to the girl when she was 3 months, he makes less noise, therefore he is less petulant. I never said she was a problem. She was never a problem, but he is less. More manly. 

My daughter is genius, not yet 2 years old, she knows many countries on the globe, she puts on the board the initial letter to about 55 different words or if you put the letter she says the words. Knows most animals by name. Can draw. She also knows it is not a good idea to buy a Canon 7D because some of them they are completely crap. etc.

But at the same time, I have a boy, and he is less petulant.

And the guy with two girls,... has two girls that are more petulant by his own admission.

Aj foto film a gem,...
I never made any " comments abuse " toward anyone even though I might be a "consumer ignores".

Again the camera has been paid for twice.
And Yes,..out of warranty means out of warranty.

Still, call me stubborn, but a $1500 camera with 500 shutter actuations should work fine.

Craigslist will take care gradually of all my Canon stuff that breaks.

And BH or Adorama (or any others) will not have me on record purchasing anymore Canon stuff.
I am really afraid of that Big Bad Condensation.
Canon seems to have a weakness for it.

Conclusion?!
Simple.
If out of warranty is out of warranty, for a slightly used camera that carries a great promise, I will take my talented investments elsewhere.

Nobody is wrong, 
We are both right,
Just a matter of making choices.

Maybe, like Le Bron, I'll be back in Canonland, but for now, Nikonami sounds great.


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## Magnardo (Mar 29, 2015)

Unfocused please concentrate, please focus.
It is not that hard to make some sense.

It is not a question if Canon has people policing Canon rumors,.. It is a question of who they are.
So nice of you to jump to the defense of your coworker.
Strategical Redirect,...I was waiting for it, therefore it does not surprise me.
If you remember,.....I have identified and mentioned both of you by name,.... in an earlier post.

Not hard to spot the whale in the bath tub.
Kinda' obvious.
Thanks for putting lipstick on this pig.

Not just Canon has these guys trying to influence public opinion,..everyone has them.
Because social interaction has been identified by advertisers and marketing people as the most efficient and quantifiable way of advertising. 
What is a blog called Canon Rumors?..... but a place where Canon users come to discuss their issues.

Surely Canon keeps an eye on it.
They are not dumb,..they came up with Condensation.


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## Magnardo (Mar 29, 2015)

Let me make it easy for you,...

"Also about professional trolls.
It is the biggest new thing in advertising.
There are a lot of companies with a comprehensive staff of, somewhat failed writers, operating many fake virtual identities that get hired to bail out bad products, be internet watch dogs, assassinate competitor's products or save celebrities from the public internet backlash when they do stupid things.
This is a multimillion dollar industry.

They are always easy to spot as they have funky uninspired and somewhat obvious names, they are extremely and unjustifiably active blog contributors, for someone that claims disinterest, and for the most part they do not have anything creative or intelligent to say, some of them personally attack the consumer who has a problem with the product they are paid to protect, and they never tackle the issue, others praise the manufacturer and talk about their great experiences with them, others recite from the latest commercial campaigns great stories of convenient and unverifiable greatness. "


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## Magnardo (Mar 29, 2015)

From same earlier post,..." If you take "neuroanatomist" out who was not very neuro,..and also "unfocused" who clearly was not focused,...I thank everyone for your opinions.

It helped.


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## Magnardo (Mar 29, 2015)

ME:"...they are extremely and unjustifiably active blog contributors, for someone that claims disinterest."

You: "Just when I'm about ready to hang up Canon Rumors Forum and find something more constructive to do, a thread like this pops up and I'm hooked again."


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## Don Haines (Mar 29, 2015)

Magnardo,

You had bad luck, but learn from it....

Focus on how the cameras are stored, focus on proper testing before taking them on a trip...... What happened to you can happen to anyone, with any brand or model of camera.... If you throw all your canon gear into the garbage and get Nikon or Sony, you don't want to go through this again....

It sucks to have a camera die. I had one die on a two week canoe trip the day after the warranty expired and shot the rest of the trip with a waterproof P/S camera (always carry a backup  ). Unfortunately, you can not make electro-mechanical devices portable, low cost, and robust. The point here being that if it is an important shoot, always carry a backup. Wedding photographers are full of stories about how their A body died and the B body saved thier ass....

Long term sealed storage containers are a bad idea. You have learned the hard way, but hopefully you have learned and will keep your future gear from suffering the same fate.

Pre testing before an important use is another lesson to be learned, particularly if the device has not been used for a long time. Hopefully you will save yourself from that one in the future....


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 29, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> He pretends that he did not read that the camera stopped working before going to Hawaii.



What you stated was that the camera did not turn on before your trip, and you _assumed_ it was just a discharged battery. Then you took the camera to Hawaii. So perhaps it was a completely dead battery (which can happen if Li-ion batteries are left unused in a device like the 7D or any other Canon body with a transmissive LCD, which continually draws power from them even when 'off', so that the cells completely discharge), and the condensation occured in Hawaii.




Magnardo said:


> Hope your efforts get compensated accordingly. I have described your type of employee above.



Your perseveration on this on this topic has become inane. Amusing, but inane.




Magnardo said:


> This was mainly a conversation about fair and assuming responsibility, more then anything.



Ahhh, I see. Tell us, where exactly do *you* assume responsibility for your own actions? For example:


Magnardo said:


> Forget about the lost memories that were lost by trusting on Canon reliability and the quality of their products.



So let's see...you failed to verify that you had a functional camera before leaving on your trip, but that's Canon's fault. So it seems what you really mean is you want someone else to take responsiblity for _your_ mistakes, including improper storage of your camera.

Whatever, guy. You started this thread with a petulant rant, blaming someone else for your own foolishness. In fact, your foolishness is compounded because unlike many, you are fortunate enough actually have another (better!) dSLR you could have brought instead, had you actually bothered to test the 7D properly. 

Regardless, the terms of the warranty are clear. Your 7D's warranty had expired, and the camera failed. Canon USA was generous enough to discount the cost of the repair, even though they were under no obligation to do so. Any gratitude for that? Nope, ranting that they charged you at all. You claim you've already paid for it, so it's not even clear why you're posting this? Looking for opinions, as you claim? Perhaps...but when those opinions are not universally supportive, you become hostile (or rather, more hostile since you were hostile at the outset).

At any rate, there's no point in continuing with this line of discussion. Good luck with your problems, including those related to your camera.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 29, 2015)

Vivid Color said:


> So in my mind, Canon was pretty generous at giving you a substantial reduction in repair fees, especially if you are not a member of CPS.



Without entering into any specific discussion I'd like to stress this fact, I mentioned it above, too: Canon doing the repair labor for free is a huge stroke of luck, I could absolutely never, ever, imagine my local Canon service doing that - cps member or not, inside warranty (but user's fault) or outside warranty. 

Actually I do find it a bit depressing that talking them down like that seems to have some effect while I'm stupid enough to sheepishly pay my repair bills w/o even trying to lament about the huge bill. And I would have every reason to as I'm running on a extremely tight budget and my equipment breaking like the op's would really, really bad for me.


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## Don Haines (Mar 29, 2015)

Neuro, how much is CR guy paying you? Is it per posting or per month?

I'm thinking that PBD, Spokane, Jrista, Marsu, and the rest of us should go on strike demanding better pay... Right now we are getting $0.00 per post..... And to make it worse, it's even in Canadian dollars.... We demand our pay to be doubled!


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## ajfotofilmagem (Mar 29, 2015)

I think the pharmaceutical industry in the USA is paying very low wages.  The economic crisis has become so severe that Neuro need a precarious work as "writer defending Canon". :-[

I live in Brazil, and economic growth here was 0.1% in 2014. I also want to receive money of Canon to write positive things about this greedy company. : Tell me, what is the salary?

If Nikon pay more, and I can change sides and write Nikonrumors, or maybe Sony pay better wages ...


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## zim (Mar 29, 2015)

Wow it's like having our favourite Swede back, brilliant ;D


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## Aglet (Mar 29, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> Mainly it sat in weather sealed bag.



If you stored it mainly in this sealed bag, with a battery in the camera, and without swapping fresh dessicant packs into the bag to keep it really dry, then you likely caused a possible condensation issue and the battery would have driven a corrosion process that would destroy parts of a circuit board.

I've read many Canon owner's manuals cover-to-cover (they're very well written) and I'm pretty sure there's a topic in there about proper storage procedures.

Sorry to say, as a few others have, this is a problem you likely created by improper storage and is unlikely due to any defect in quality or workmanship of the product.
If you understand that, then the fact Canon gave you a break on the repairs you don't really have a lot to grouse about.


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## gbchriste (Mar 29, 2015)

Whether condensation was the actual cause of malfunction or not, you are the one *demanding* that Canon manufacture a DSLR with interchangeable lenses that is immune to condensation. This is a practical impossibility because once you remove a lens, you have opened up the entire camera body to the exposure of latent water in the atmosphere, which exists as a gas, and will eventually permeate through even the most tightly sealed and seemingly impenetrable commercial materials.

And you say you stored it in a sealed water tight bag. What was the atmospheric humidity on that day? If there was even a small trace of humidity, you trapped whatever water was in the air inside the bag, with your camera, when you sealed the bag up. That water had no where to go and no way to dry out. So every time the temperature changed you ran the risk of that water condensing out of the air and collecting on and in the camera.

I don't know what the cause of the malfunction was but condensation was certainly a possibility.

Where do I submit my invoice to Canon for this post?


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## rs (Mar 29, 2015)

7D user manual:
http://gdlp01.c-wss.com/gds/5/0300004275/02/eos7d-im4-en.pdf

Page 2:
"After shooting, playback and check whether the image has been properly recorded. If the camera or memory card is faulty and the images cannot be recorded or downloaded to a computer, Canon cannot be held liable for any loss or inconvenience caused"

Page 261:
"Before storing the camera or accessory when not in use, remove the battery pack"

Page 262:
"Do not store the equipment in dusty or humid places"


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## serendipidy (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks for a very informative and entertaining thread ;D


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## Marsu42 (Mar 29, 2015)

rs said:


> "Do not store the equipment in dusty or humid places"



To be fair, that's very vague and rather sounds like written as a precaution and to be able to say "we told you so". Well, we told you so  ...

... but what's the level "dusty" that poses a threat, what humidity - anything above "center of the desert at noon" level, or above usual moderate climate room-temperature level, or tropical rainforest, or... ?



serendipidy said:


> Thanks for a very informative and entertaining thread ;D



That's what CR is all about - watch the Canon fanboi police clash with newbies wanting max value and iq out of the box, and grab the popcorn :->


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## East Wind Photography (Mar 29, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> ME:"...they are extremely and unjustifiably active blog contributors, for someone that claims disinterest."
> 
> You: "Just when I'm about ready to hang up Canon Rumors Forum and find something more constructive to do, a thread like this pops up and I'm hooked again."



Being fairly new to these forums you will see that this kind of discussion will actively bring out the flames and challenges. Don't get too worked up over it. You clearly stated your opinion. I too recently had a bad experience but that ended well. Bought a 7d2 and after several months of testing was bitterly disappointed in the product. I sent it back to canon and they fixed it. Yes it was under warranty and I was happy about that.

Others here had bought and returned the same model several times to try and get a good one...and finally gave up. I instead sent it to get fixed. It was a new camera. While others were complaining about the problems, I got my camera back and was working all as good as my 5d3. 

People complained that after spending 1700 on a new camera it should work right out of the box...and was unsatisfied wheni it didn't. I saw it differently. I got a camera back that was repaired, re-calibrated and re-tested back to factory specs and I am certain this camera is functioning as canon designed it.

Now it may crap out 1 day after the warranty expires but the odds are against that. I have 5 canon bodies now and have never had any issues with them. In fact I personally don't know of anyone that has had a canon body issue. I do know several that have had nikons fail during a trip...and not a vacation. One had 3 nikons fail at the onset of photographing cheerleading competitions. He had to go out and buy all new canon gear not having any trust in Nikon anymore. His experience persuaded me to switch as well.

My point here is to look at things a bit differently. If I had been like the guy who returned his camera 3 times and was not pleased, I would not have it now and it's now my primary camera for sports and wildlife.

The reality is that all of these complex electronic devices are just crap, waiting for someone to destroy them completely and totally beyond repair. Might be an electronic failure, might be a slip and it falls to the floor. Sometimes we need to take a loss or get it repaired.

Your 7D is now repaired. Just go out and use it and enjoy photography. If you switch to Nikon now it will cost you even more money. It's the technological world we live in.


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## Magnardo (Mar 30, 2015)

Well,....We are past information collecting now,..It's gotten to the point where everyone is trying to prove their smarts and debating skills.

Canon asked for $579 to fix a camera that costs $750 right now.

I was upset.
They dropped it to $350.

Now again, the guys that refuse to intelligently process information said: Ohhh,.. That was so nice in the part of Canon.
In fact they have sold me their repair of $350 which probably cost them less then half, therefore again making money in the process.

I would have never paid $579 to repair a camera that cost an extra $150 brand new and they knew that. 

I do not like repaired stuff. We live in a world where most people are not pursuing excellence and as such, reassembly of a camera, is an extra procedure, with less oversight, that might make things go wrong in the future. Then the other thing to go wrong will not be covered by the warranty.

Somebody posted this: 

"After shooting, playback and check whether the image has been properly recorded. If the camera or memory card is faulty and the images cannot be recorded or downloaded to a computer, Canon cannot be held liable for any loss or inconvenience caused"

Page 261:
"Before storing the camera or accessory when not in use, remove the battery pack"

Page 262:
"Do not store the equipment in dusty or humid places"

Basically these are written by lawyers and state that: Any camera can break at any time for whatever reason and Canon does not bear any responsibility.

Stop talking about Condensation,...Let's talk about Bad Circuitry and Bad Wiring.
That's why the camera went wrong.
Condensation it's just a convenient decoy.
Everyone glorifies Condensation, while nobody else can explain why oh why? the other cameras work fine.

Bad Circuitry and Bad Wiring.
Let's talk about this.
Is this a possibility?

Some busy little bee talks about assuming responsibility.
I paid for the camera twice. 
Please allow me to be unhappy about it.


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## slclick (Mar 30, 2015)

I feel your pain, been there with other products, not Canon but electronics all the same. My theory, shit breaks, no matter the brand. Now as for a mfg taking a hit for repairing those damages, well I'm sorry you didn't get things your way. I just can't see them rubberstamping everything on a customer's word. Personally, I have had nothing but stellar and fast customer service which has exceeded my expectations in every way. True, I have Gold level CPS membership. Now sometimes someone will get a bad item, it sounds like you did, It is not inherent of the 7D line. Just bad luck. I would not give up on the Canon system because of this isolated incident. 

Try Nikon customer service and you'll be a Canon devotee for life.


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## jdramirez (Mar 30, 2015)

I've grown bored of this back & forth.


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## old-pr-pix (Mar 30, 2015)

This tread highlights some stark realities of buying and using high tech products:
1) Anyone who has a product fail is unhappy - if it fails just out of warranty they are really ticked.
2) Stuff happens - even the best designed products can have faulty parts/batches, users do things wrong, etc.
3) Most companies only derive a profit margin around 5-10% on most products once they pay for R&D, manufacturing costs, advertising, marketing, shipping, distributors, dealers, etc. Product cost does drop over time as R&D is paid off or as a product nears the end of its life and parts are being used up. Companies don't have a lot of margin to play with and can't afford a lot of #2! Assumptions that Canon is making several hundred dollars profit on a $1700 camera are likely way off base. 
4) Repair parts are expensive and labor and equipment to handle repairs is really expensive. In production there is a steady flow of known quantities of parts. For repair they need to stock parts for years which may, or may not, ever be used. Plus they need to have all the expensive equipment needed to assemble and calibrate every product they support. It's not all used every day like it is in manufacturing. The inventory and equipment costs a lot of money, hence repair costs tend to be high. Comparing repair cost to manufacturing cost is apples and oranges.
5) "Weather sealed" is a marketing term. As mentioned, unless cameras start showing up with IPxx ratings it should be interpreted as "we tried!" From Roger Cicala we know that on the 7DII Canon "tried harder" to seal the camera. Pentax is well known for consistently "trying harder" to weather seal their cameras, but even they won't put an IPxx rating on them.
6) Condensation is evil; but, unlike the "weaving" example used above, it leaves definite evidence behind. If one suspects it is being used as a "cop-out" to avoid a real explanation for a failure, one should request photos of the damaged parts. Obviously a devious repair tech could send photos of someone else's camera, but that would escalate the situation to out-and-out fraud and could easily be exposed by reopening the OP's camera.
7) Some companies successfully rely on a business model where "consumables" are where the real profit resides (think ink jet cartridges) but I can't think of one company that uses a business model where repair centers are their primary profit centers. Companies can't survive intentionally selling crap and making their money by fixing it. (If someone has an example to the contrary please contribute it.)

To the OP, I fully understand your frustration and why you would be angry. You certainly have every right to never buy from Canon again. It certainly is possible Canon had a bad batch of circuit boards made with the wrong solder flux that corrodes over time and that the repair tech has a list of serial numbers (s)he checks and then is told to mark the repair as "condensation" to stick it to the customer. But, I don't think that's the case. If it were there would be a lot more complaints like yours on this forum


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## East Wind Photography (Mar 30, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> Well,....We are past information collecting now,..It's gotten to the point where everyone is trying to prove their smarts and debating skills.
> 
> Canon asked for $579 to fix a camera that costs $750 right now.
> 
> ...



You are certainly welcome to be unhappy about it. However it's not best to super dwell on it too much. You now have two working cameras that will likely service your needs well.

Think of how much you will spend switching to Nikon or Sony? Lenses, bodies, flash. I would just use what you have until both reach the end of their service life.

There is a reason why Canon is used most by professionals. You can be unhappy but remember that other vendor equipment is likely worse.

Don't worry, I don't work for canon. Just a happy canon customer over the years. I still own an EOS 3 film camera that works as good as the day it was bought.


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## Don Haines (Mar 30, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> Bad Circuitry and Bad Wiring.
> Let's talk about this.
> Is this a possibility?



Yes, everything is possible....but what about probable?

Every component in your camera has a MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure) It's a bell curve and everything is designed to be in the safe side of the curve for a normal lifespan. Occasionally, a component will fail far earlier than expected and you get a camera that dies out of warranty. There are a few things that accelerate the process, like heat, temperature cycling, impact, and humidity. Ocean air, with it's salt content, is particularly nasty and the bane of marine electronics...

When electronics that is "in storage" fails, the usual culprit is corrosion... and corrosion and humidity go hand in hand. It does not matter one bit if you like it or not, but it is the most likely cause of your problem. Personally, I hate it because I live in a climate that bounces between +40C and -40C and I spend my summers on the water, and often salt water. I am far more likely to have these problems than the typical user, so I take great care of my gear..... but even that's no guarantee. Shit happens and we are left to deal with it the best we can.


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## TeT (Mar 30, 2015)

@Magnardo

We are not all a bunch of Canon Fanboys... it is unfortunate that your camera broke. You bought it sat on it and found out it was defective after it was out of warranty. Not Canons fault.

IF Canon 7D cameras had a history or evidence of breaking in this manner, then you would have an argument for them fixing it for free.

They don't:

it was nice that you got something from them...

I would add that waterproof bags are not good for storage in general.


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## jhpeterson (Mar 30, 2015)

Yes, everything is possible....but what about probable?
Every component in your camera has a MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure) It's a bell curve and everything is designed to be in the safe side of the curve for a normal lifespan. Occasionally, a component will fail far earlier than expected and you get a camera that dies out of warranty. There are a few things that accelerate the process, like heat, temperature cycling, impact, and humidity. *Ocean air, with it's salt content, is particularly nasty and the bane of marine electronics...*
When electronics that is "in storage" fails, the usual culprit is corrosion... and corrosion and humidity go hand in hand. It does not matter one bit if you like it or not, but it is the most likely cause of your problem. Personally, I hate it because I live in a climate that bounces between +40C and -40C and I spend my summers on the water, and often salt water. I am far more likely to have these problems than the typical user, so I take great care of my gear..... but even that's no guarantee. S___ happens and we are left to deal with it the best we can.
[/quote]+1 (and to the nth power!)

As a boating photographer I'm on the water a significant portion of the year. Far more often it's salt rather than fresh. 
It's essential I take excellent care of my gear, since my business demands that it works. Yet, no matter what conditions are, I need to come back with the shot. Many times, those two forces are in conflict, and I'm forced to make a decision, balancing risk against reward.
Corrosion is something I can never avoid from the moment I set on the water. Over the years, I've learned a few tools and techniques, from on-water storage in dry bags and coolers to wrapping the bodies and lenses in Gore-Tex and neoprene jackets to making sure when I get back onshore of giving everything a thorough wipe-down. But, in the end, all I can do is minimize the exposure and do my best to mitigate the damage.

I feel bad for Magnardo. He's in a no-win situation. I've often been in the same one.


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## Magnardo (Mar 30, 2015)

Old PR Pix Intelligently written points and arguments. 
Thank you.

Also JHpeterson and slclick etc,... Everyone was cool about responding.
See,... you can have a smart conversation.

The 7D and all it's wardrobe is going on Craig's list.
Do not like refurbished products.

5D and it's wardrobe I will keep, until they decide to crap themselves, and if that happens, than I will put my Canon stuff in a Cannon and blow it up.

Will not buy new Canon stuff for a while.
I wanted the 24 1.4 and the 14 2.8...or maybe the 11-24 f4 zoom,...Even the 5Dr and 5Ds looked nice,but, right now,.... That's going to have to wait.

If trust gets broken, on a personal note, I have a hard time overlooking that.
We need to rebuild our relationship.

I saw a few of you guys talking about,... Gold level CPS.
Can you please explain what that is and how one will go about getting it.
Thanks.


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## tpatana (Mar 30, 2015)

Things break. If you don't like it, don't buy things.

Of course it sucks when it happens to YOU, but crying and blaming the brand doesn't help anything.


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## AcutancePhotography (Mar 30, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> Pelican cases and dry bags are a fancy way of keeping your cameras wet. If you do not have a bag of desiccant thrown into the case or bag, you WILL get condensation and it WILL kill your gear.



I really like that. Things that are good at keeping things out are often good at keeping things in.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 30, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> I saw a few of you guys talking about,... Gold level CPS. Can you please explain what that is and how one will go about getting it.



Refusal to use Google and other symptoms make the op fit into the definition of "help vampire", one definition here: http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/19665/the-help-vampire-problem


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## East Wind Photography (Mar 30, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> If trust gets broken, on a personal note, I have a hard time overlooking that.
> We need to rebuild our relationship.



Wow. So your trust was broken when you expected Canon to repair your camera for free outside of the warrenty?

Remember the warrenty is an agreement between you and the manufacturer. When you bought that camera you agreed to a 1 year warrenty. It's not a shutter count warrenty.

If that's the kind of trust you put into your relationships then I feel sorry for everyone in your circle. But I no longer feel sorry for you.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 30, 2015)

AcutancePhotography said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Pelican cases and dry bags are a fancy way of keeping your cameras wet. If you do not have a bag of desiccant thrown into the case or bag, you WILL get condensation and it WILL kill your gear.
> ...



Very true. I'll reiterate that it's a good idea to use a desiccant pack with an indicator dye, so you know when to replace/regenerate it. Personally, I use these Bel-Art cartridges in smaller cases (65mm in small cases, 100mm in medium cases), and this EvaDry unit in my large case. 

The desiccant absorbs the moisture inside the case, the case offers protection – roofs leak, pipes burst, etc.


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## jhpeterson (Mar 30, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> I saw a few of you guys talking about,... Gold level CPS.
> Can you please explain what that is and how one will go about getting it.
> Thanks.


CPS membership is designed to provide additional support for full-time professionals. There are three levels, Silver, Gold and Platinum, as well as Cinema and Enterprise (designed for medium to large businesses). Which one you choose depends both on your price of admission as well as the amount of certain Canon gear you own (they have a list of just what items qualify), based on a point system. Silver requires 10 points and is free, Gold needs 20 points and $100 annually and Platinum cost you $300 and 50 points. 
Looking through your equipment list, I'd say you're right around the 50-point mark. If you use your equipment as hard as me, I'd recommend you buy in at the highest level you qualify for. More than once, I've benefited from the extra attention.


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## Sporgon (Mar 30, 2015)

Good tip on the desiccant that has an indicator. Reading through this and other threads about 'weather sealing' I think it's apparent that often as not it's what you do after using your gear in rain / high humidity / extreme changes of environment etc that can causes the problems, rather than the environment the camera is exposed to at the time.

Also overlooked by many seems to be the fact that water ingress, even in light rain, between the mount surfaces if there is no gasket, is surprisingly rapid. In the days before lenses had these rubber gaskets, and even to day for lenses that don't, I found two lady's panty pads, doubled over lengthways and held around the mount with a rubber band worked great. Still does. Others used to wrap a flannel or the like around, but my method was much more subtle.


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## RustyTheGeek (Mar 30, 2015)

East Wind Photography said:


> Magnardo said:
> 
> 
> > If trust gets broken, on a personal note, I have a hard time overlooking that.
> ...





serendipidy said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > Things break. If you don't like it, don't buy things.
> ...



After (finally!) getting through this long thread, entertaining as it is, the above quotes echo my eventual thoughts on the subject. I'm an IT guy, I see a lot of different failures and problems with technology and electronics of all kinds. If I took every failure and disappointment with a piece of equipment/software as personally as you have with this one incident, I would have shot myself in the head 30 years ago.

And after the devastating experience you had to endure wound down, you found a canon forum with some intelligent and active members (who gave you honest feedback) to share/vent your terrible experience with expecting... what? What did/do you want? Were you expecting everyone to just fall in line with you and say Canon sucks, they are a terrible company to be in a _relationship_ with and so we will all sell our gear and join you in some kind of protest of how badly Canon screwed up a single piece of gear out of the millions of pieces of gear they have manufactured over the years?

And when you read many of the posts here, many of which echo the same points trying to help you, you literally call out every poster individually and... _grade them on their conduct and worthiness of their posts_? Do you realize that the longest and most tedious posts in this thread are from YOU, commenting on (and criticizing)... the other comments and members? We are so glad someone finally arrived after all these years to 'fix' all the problems we didn't even know we had with membership and advice.

Magnardo, seriously, on a positive note - welcome to the forum. I think you will find many of the members here very sharp, helpful and fun to interact with. But you really need to get some perspective. Many of the members here have shot tens of thousands of images with tens of thousands of dollars of Canon gear. Everyone experiences gear failure and they deal with it. It's just a fact of life. It sucks. But it's not personal.


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## old-pr-pix (Mar 30, 2015)

RustyTheGeek said:


> Magnardo, seriously, on a positive note - welcome to the forum. I think you will find many of the members here very sharp, helpful and fun to interact with. But you really need to get some perspective. Many of the members here have shot tens of thousands of images with tens of thousands of dollars of Canon gear. *Everyone experiences gear failure and they deal with it. It's just a fact of life. It sucks. But it's not personal.*



... At this point the stage lights go dark, the curtain closes to the roar of thunderous applause. The show is over.


P.S. Thanks, neuro, for details on desiccant packs.


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## jdramirez (Mar 30, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> I saw a few of you guys talking about,... Gold level CPS.
> Can you please explain what that is and how one will go about getting it.
> Thanks.



I would normally have a different answer... but my answer to you is that it is for professionals and you do not qualify.


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## awinphoto (Mar 30, 2015)

jdramirez said:


> Magnardo said:
> 
> 
> > I saw a few of you guys talking about,... Gold level CPS.
> ...



Usually when i answer with that, i get yelled at by the canon rumors community, with that being said, i've had a 5 year old 7d finally take a crap on me due to weather sealing and a bad circuit board, but then again, i also got my fair share of usage out of it so i dont feel cheated or jaded. I live in a dry climate in the high sierras, but, I've had cameras fail of me on trips to the coast and chicago, places with high humidity and whatnot... the cameras would work for like 1-2 hours, shut off and i would have to dry them out before they would work again. They were not submerged in water or anywhere near the water, but just high humidity, like hawaii, can be tough on cameras. Even if you look at the user manual, you will find recommended shooting temperatures and humidity...


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## 3kramd5 (Mar 30, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> Fact is, again,.... I have 7 working cameras in the house.
> Likely Commonsense Conclusion? Condensation not bad.



Did your 7D ever leave the house without its seven siblings or are you being intentionally obtuse?

Condensation isn't magical. My son is learning about it now and he isn't yet four years old.

If there is water damage (easy to diagnose) and you didn't introduce your camera to water (taken at your word), condensation is extremely likely, not a 2% shot or whatever you pegged it at to suggest that there is a fundamental problem with the EOS7D that nobody else has run into in the 6 years the camera has been around.



Magnardo said:


> Stop talking about Condensation,...Let's talk about Bad Circuitry and Bad Wiring.
> That's why the camera went wrong.



That's quite a claim. 



Magnardo said:


> Everyone glorifies Condensation, while nobody else can explain why oh why? the other cameras work fine.



Nobody is glorifying anything, just agreeing that it makes sense, and since that's what the experts who diagnosed your camera think happened, it's a good bet that's what happened.

The other cameras work fine. If they all experienced the exact same temperature and moisture environments as your 7D, either you got lucky, or they will likely start having issues themselves. I presume however that is not the case. 



Magnardo said:


> I paid for the camera twice.
> Please allow me to be unhappy about it.



You're more than welcome to be unhappy that your relatively unused camera needed a costly repair, but suggesting there is a design or manufacturing flaw that only affects you rather than a well understood phenomenon that everyone who has ever viewed a cloud can relate to is rather far removed from merely being upset.


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## tpatana (Mar 30, 2015)

That claim that it cannot be condensation because other cameras are ok, is almost the most moronic thing I've ever heard.

So next time you drive on a nail, go ahead and blame the tire manufacturer. "The tires are defect, can't be the nail because other 3 tires are fine".


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## jdramirez (Mar 30, 2015)

awinphoto said:


> Usually when i answer with that, i get yelled at by the canon rumors community, with that being said, i've had a 5 year old 7d finally take a crap on me due to weather sealing and a bad circuit board, but then again, i also got my fair share of usage out of it so i dont feel cheated or jaded. I live in a dry climate in the high sierras, but, I've had cameras fail of me on trips to the coast and chicago, places with high humidity and whatnot... the cameras would work for like 1-2 hours, shut off and i would have to dry them out before they would work again. They were not submerged in water or anywhere near the water, but just high humidity, like hawaii, can be tough on cameras. Even if you look at the user manual, you will find recommended shooting temperatures and humidity...



It was hidden in the subtext... but we what I was hinting at is that we are happy to help those who warrant being helped. But... if you act petulent, or entitled... you may get an accurate answer... but it doesn't mean it is the full answer.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 30, 2015)

tpatana said:


> That claim that it cannot be condensation because other cameras are ok, is almost the most moronic thing I've ever heard.



This is not accurate - if you watch the threads on CR closely, you'll easily pick up many much more moronic things


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## DRR (Mar 30, 2015)

You paid $1500 for the privilege of having a camera sit largely unused in your bag for almost 2 years. You can't complain about the original purchase price because you made those decisions to 1) buy it 2) not use it. You're the one that kept it in questionable conditions and never checked it, and that's what caused the failure. I don't see how this is a Canon problem.

Now you are complaining about a $350 repair charge, which seems pretty reasonable to me. Answer me, why did you not just save the $350, and put some rocks in your weather sealed bag for another 2 years? You'd derive about the same amount of usefulness out of that for much less money.

Honestly though you could have saved the $350, (+$350) bought a used 7D body instead, (-$500) and sold the bad one as-is (+$350), and you may actually have come out ahead in the transactions.


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## tpatana (Mar 30, 2015)

jdramirez said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Usually when i answer with that, i get yelled at by the canon rumors community, with that being said, i've had a 5 year old 7d finally take a crap on me due to weather sealing and a bad circuit board, but then again, i also got my fair share of usage out of it so i dont feel cheated or jaded. I live in a dry climate in the high sierras, but, I've had cameras fail of me on trips to the coast and chicago, places with high humidity and whatnot... the cameras would work for like 1-2 hours, shut off and i would have to dry them out before they would work again. They were not submerged in water or anywhere near the water, but just high humidity, like hawaii, can be tough on cameras. Even if you look at the user manual, you will find recommended shooting temperatures and humidity...
> ...



There's this karma thingy, and while I don't believe it works in some supernatural way, I think it works exactly as you describe. If you are an asshole and act like it all the time, that how people will treat you. If you're nice and helpful, people will treat you nice and help you when needed.

Karma is cool.


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## tpatana (Mar 30, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > That claim that it cannot be condensation because other cameras are ok, is almost the most moronic thing I've ever heard.
> ...



That is true.

I shouldn't even try to remember the first time I cleaned the sensor myself,... Well, I was young and stupid. Now I'm not young anymore. I'm sure people who I told my cleaning story, thought I'm the biggest moron in the world. Luckily we have this internet-thingy, with some effort I can prove that there's actually even more stupid people around.


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## kelpdiver (Mar 31, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> Nikon used to have the Nikonos IV, an interchangeable lens UNDERWATER camera..... but nobody in their right mind would use it out of water.....



The nikonos line saw a fair amount of surface use. It was a rugged camera that could be dumped in water to clean afterwards, making it a very good camera for harsh environments.

These days it makes a lot less sense - manual focus (and for pre IVa, no autoexposure), and only the 35mm and 80mm lenses available.

---
Going back to the OP

Your primary incorrect assumption is believing that new and used cameras are the most reliable. These are in fact the least reliable. They don't have any wear, but nor have they proven themselves. When I buy electronics, I want to give them their shakedown testing before the 30 day vendor return period ends. Much easier to return to them then to try to get it serviced under warranty. 

Cameras in the 5-50k clicks are well proven, and even the heavily used ones (by pros) are proven, though eventually you might have to replace the shutter. But that the model stands up to heavy use is a very good endorsement.

Funny enough, the refurbs being sold are also more reliable than new. For the new production line, they only spot check a few units for QA purposes. The warranty addresses the others. It's too costly to test them all. You may well have gotten a bad unit. But refurbs get tested 100% of the time. As do repairs. Your repaired 7d is a better bet than a new unit, esp since they've been sitting in a warehouse for a long time now. If it does fail again, you should be able to lobby them to give you one of those new ones or refurbs. 

Your other objection is that the repair cost was nearly as high as the current sale price of the 7d. But this is the clear out price of a model released 5.5 years ago. It's not a realistic comparison. And if you really paid $1500 for it less than 2 years ago, where on earth were you shopping? I paid 1400 for it 4 years ago, and it's routinely been under a grand since. I suspect you're engaging in a bit of hyperbole there.


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## Magnardo (Mar 31, 2015)

We are past making sense now,...and that's fine.

I've read a few moronic things from these last few contributors.

The most accomplished moronic thing was comparing condensation to a nail. Great one Einstein.

Also to everything I said, there's 10 different responses from reoccurring people that complain that I am wasting their time.

Dude,...You do not have to be here. Please stop helping me with your negativity. Go and play with yourself. Do something important,... Go and see your proctologist.
That should clear things up for you.

Some people were willing to help and I thank them for it. 
Others needed an outlet for their brain farts.

Some, who probably failed Debate classes in high school, came here just to argue. 
Nothing in particular,..just anything they could. 
People with unhappy lives, looking to spread their own misery like pixiedust.

The call me idiot and other names but fail to do the first intelligent thing required in any conversation and the backbone of any Debate.
In order to participate successfully, you have to have the ability to Listen, in this case, to have the patience to read the entire paragraph of the guy you think you are arguing with, to know what you have to counteract.
For those failed debaters: That's how you destroy someone's opinion about something. 
First step is you need to understand what they are saying so you can compose a game plan. 
Otherwise you embarrass yourselves like you just did here.

Moving on.

Warranty is not a contract.
A contract cannot be binding when only one side signs it.
I, as a consumer, have absolutely no say in it.
Warranty could be a contract but it is not necessarily. 
Mainly, it is a promise of honor to honor a product in case it is defective.

I, myself, have sold something to someone before, with no warranty.
It broke. I took it back.
I was able to identify the product was faulty, indifferent of their usage.
That is the honorable thing to do.
Now I could have said,..I told you no warranty,....but I did not, because it did not feel right.
There is an internal clock with an arrow inside everyone and it points to what is correct.
It is up to everyone in particular if they decide to act on it or just ignore it.
Did I have to give that guy's money back?
No.
But, for me, that would have not been fair.
In the future, if I will have anything to sell, they will probably trust me as an honest seller and come back.

Anyways,...

My camera broke.
There could be many reasons why.
One of them was Condensation.
Was it Condensation?
Maybe.
Was it for sure?
Nobody knows.
If Condensation was in my house, should affect other cameras that lived in identical environment.
Probably.
Was it possible that it might have been a faulty circuit board?
Yes it was.
Can anybody know for sure?
No.Nobody knows.
If the repair people wanted to investigate the cause could they?
Probably.
Did they investigate the cause?
Who knows?! But not likely.
Are investigating and fixing something two different activities?
Yes they are.
Was the camera past it's warranty promise?
Yes it was.
Did Canon have any incentive to investigate the real cause of the camera breaking down?
No, they did not.
_(and By the Way, They never said that my camera went bad because Condensation. Their exact words were: " One of the reasons for why a circuit board goes bad is if it's submerged underwater or it could be because of condensation.")_
If the circuit board was bad to begin with and they sold me a bad camera to begin with, should have they assumed responsibility?
It would have been nice.
Would that have been smart?
Probably.
Is that how Apple won over many consumers, by going beyond the minimality of their service?
Yes it is.
Now, if I took my camera in an unhealthy environment and did not take care of my camera properly, would it be right for me expect Canon to fix the camera for free?
No. It would be not.
Can anybody asses properly that my house has high levels of humidity which damaged the camera?
No, they cannot.
Is it likely?
No it is not.

That's it. 
And that's all.

Too many people concentrate on the specifics and minute exact details and try to outsmart each-other, instead of trying to find the truth,.... behaving the same way like the lawyer that put OJ back on the street because the glove did not fit.
Nobody cares about Justice, Honor, Truth Decency and other things.
These are terms from out of space.
It is all a game to outsmart one another through tricky contracts, excuses and overusing cliche blind corners.
Credit cards writing things in fine print that you can barely read. etc.

The most funny thing for me, when I meet fake people, is their Hypocrisy.
They all wave around like flags, big notions they do not understand, and talk really loud like they are the keepers of the universal knowledge but mostly, they repeat things they have been told or heard somewhere, without truly processing information.

I see a lot of the same things here,...
I understand that a few of you do not understand and will not understand because you cannot understand and If you were ever close to understanding, your brain would explode. 

Simple thing is: I can do whatever I want with my money.
Canon can do whatever they want with their cameras.

If I am happy with their equipment, I will buy more.
If i'm unhappy, I will stop buying.

We are both right. Nobody is wrong.
Everything else is a coincidence.

Again,... The good people that were trying to help. 
This was not intended for you.

It was written for the flaccid minds jealous of anything that sits straight.


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## tpatana (Mar 31, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> with your negativity.



;D



> Go and play with yourself.



Every night.

Cheers mate. You seem to be the one all worked up. Not worth that much agony over $350. Yes, it sucks, but your rant is totally too much compared to what happened.


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## serendipidy (Mar 31, 2015)

After 8 pages, I think the main lessons I have learned (IMHO) are that if you buy something expensive (that can sometimes either be defective or can break early in use for whatever reason) and it has a time limited return or warranty then: 

1) Use it a lot when you first get it to make sure it is good and reliable so if it breaks, it does so in the return or warranty time
2) Read carefully the instruction manual and be sure to follow it closely when it comes to maintenance and upkeep-this may or may not help
3) Once in a while you are gonna get screwed and you will be very angry but as much as possible try to keep your cool and calmly try to get satisfaction-may or may not be successful
4) Do your diligent consumer research (google is your friend as is the internet) before you spend your hard earned money
5) Go home, relax and have a drink, hug your wife and kids (if you have any), see the big picture and count your blessings
6) In a public forum, the way you say things and the way you present yourself can influence the response you get from others


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## Magnardo (Mar 31, 2015)

Amen.


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## martti (Mar 31, 2015)

A couple of years back I had a similar experience with iPhone. The home button stopped working while still under warranty. I was told that it was a humidity event and the repair would be for me to pay. What I did was very mature: I changed my provider, got an Android phone and never went back.

Until I read about iFixit site and decided to see what could be done with the iPhone that had in the mean time killed its battery. When I openend the phone, all the detectors were white –no sign of water of even humidity.
So the f*****s had lied to me. So I changed the battery, jailbroke the phone and reprogrammed the home button funtion to the movement sensor. Somebody was very happy with the phone for three years....

So people –in addition to producing and selling shoddy merhandise– they also lie.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 31, 2015)

martti said:


> So people –in addition to producing and selling shoddy merhandise– they also lie.



I wouldn't say cps is actively lying (not that I think you're implying that)...

... but recently a friend of mine wanted his 5d2 fixed that had problems with the af system. Canon told him that the thing is broken beyond repair, and they were nearly right - when they returned it, it was completely broken (unlike the state he gave it to them). He did the wrong thing and sold it as broken on ebay, but the next guy managed to repair it just like that for a $ of parts and labor outside cps. So I'd ask for a private, second opinion if cps says something's broken for good.


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## East Wind Photography (Mar 31, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> martti said:
> 
> 
> > So people –in addition to producing and selling shoddy merhandise– they also lie.
> ...



This is true. Generally speaking manufactures will replace entire sub assemblies instead of just the bad component. A 3rd party could possibly find the fault and replace something specific to bring it back to working order given time and labor...could be extensive.

The issue becomes what caused the failure in the first place? Was it a component failure or was it environmental? If the latter, something else could fail again after the repair and you would be pissed off again.

Manufacturers generally don't have the time or means to perform component repairs when they can just install a new circuit board. It used to be easy to troubleshoot electronic issues before surface mount components and multilayer circuit boards were introduced. And now we have moved to everything on a chip models.

There are components that simply cannot be purchased by 3rd parties because they are canon specific. I've never heard of anyone purchasing say a Digic 6 processor chip. However a 3rd party may be able to buy the board assembly.

There are 3rd party options for repair but it's not always in your favor or best interest to go that route.


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## AcutancePhotography (Mar 31, 2015)

serendipidy said:


> After 8 pages, I think the main lessons I have learned (IMHO) are that if you buy something expensive (that can sometimes either be defective or can break early in use for whatever reason) and it has a time limited return or warranty then:



If I could add two more to your great list

7. If you happen to have a bad experience with one piece of equipment that does not mean that every product produced by the company will be bad. 

8. If you don't like a product made by a specific company, don't buy it. But don't make comments indicating that others should not buy products from that company.


> HOW CAN ANYONE BUY OR RECOMMEND CANON PRODUCTS TO ANYONE THEY DO NOT HATE?


. If you don't like Canon, fine. Billions of people on the earth don't use Canons. But many people do like Canon and their products. 

Of course my two items apply to many discussions on CR. ;D


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## Hector1970 (Mar 31, 2015)

I can understand it must have been a very frustrating incident for you as it is upsetting to have a such a valuable piece of equipment unusable. It's fair too to vent from time to time.
It's also important to remember that not everyone will agree with you and people don't necessarily disagree with you out of spite.
I for one are glad that people like Neuroanatomist, Mt Spokane, Marsu, Surapon, Jrista, Dilbert etc and others do take their time to throw in their 2 cents worth in the forum. I think they always give good points of view. Sometimes it might be funny, irreverant, cheeky, snappy but generally in good spirit.
They've personally been helpful to me in learning alot of technical things and corrections of mis-guided opinions or ideas. 
Best of luck with your next equipment supplier. I hope you will be happy with them and take great photos.


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## martti (Mar 31, 2015)

When I destroyed the CF connector of my 5DII with a defective CF card, Canon France told me that they'd have to change the motherboard for 565 euros. I said 'merci mais non merci'. The official Canon repair center in Finland changed the connector for 130 euros. 

So I repeat what I said: People do lie. Or 'tell the version of truth that suits their purposes' if you prefer Newspeak.

Marsu's suggestion of an independent guy taking a look is a good one. There might be and extra 5DII body somewhere that one could cannibalise. For the Greater Good.


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## DRR (Mar 31, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> We are past making sense now,...and that's fine.



Couldn't agree with you more.



> Moving on.
> 
> Warranty is not a contract.
> A contract cannot be binding when only one side signs it.
> ...



A warranty is not exactly a contract, however, in most cases (including yours) it acts like one.

When you agreed to purchase the camera, the warranty that came with it was one of the terms. You agree to pay $1500 to the retailer, and the retailer delivers to you a camera, AND conveys the warranty from Canon. Canon promises to fix defects in the camera, free of charge, for ONE YEAR. NOT IN PERPETUITY.

You do have a say in your warranty coverage. You could, not buy that camera. Or, you could purchase supplemental coverage (Squaretrade for example). More coverage = more money. Less coverage = less money. Just like auto, or home insurance.

If you buy a refurbished camera, the warranty period is less (90 days for example), so you expect to pay less for a refurbished camera than new. If you buy a used camera out of warranty, you expect to pay significantly less, because it's used, and comes with no warranty. As you can see, the warranty itself actually has a monetary value, which you already paid for, and didn't use. That's not Canon's fault, that's your fault.

You are outside of the warranty period. You have _absolutely no basis_ for a complaint.

So I understand your frustration but you have very little recourse aside from b*tching about it on a forum. Canon has in fact honored their part of the warranty - in fact they've gone beyond that, by offering you a discounted repair - you are the one who is asking for too much - you are asking for a free out of warranty repair. 

I don't know what the cause of the problem was - when I first read that it was in a waterproof bag for essentially two years, the first thing that popped into my mind was condensation issues - but who knows. It could very well have been a faulty circuit board from the factory, as you suggest. It could have been someone dropping the box from a shelf at the retailer. It could be a hundred different things, and when you're out of the warranty period, it doesn't actually matter what caused the damage - you are responsible.

I am sorry that seems to be a difficult truth for you to accept but pretty much no one on this thread shares your anger and your outrage because you are the one who has a lot of responsibility in this matter, and you don't seem to be accepting any of it. You cannot be helped, because you are not accepting of help. 

I wish you good luck, and I would not blame you if you decided to switch back to Nikon, or Pentax, or mirrorless, or whatever. I can understand this experience has soured you on Canon. However I'll leave you with a warning - in the same situation, a different company would have done the exact same thing as Canon. You are not going to get better service from Sony or Samsung or anybody else.

Good luck.


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## kfreels (Mar 31, 2015)

> A warranty is not exactly a contract, however, in most cases (including yours) it acts like one.
> 
> When you agreed to purchase the camera, the warranty that came with it was one of the terms. You agree to pay $1500 to the retailer, and the retailer delivers to you a camera, AND conveys the warranty from Canon. Canon promises to fix defects in the camera, free of charge, for ONE YEAR. NOT IN PERPETUITY.
> 
> ...


This is absolutely correct. I couldn't have said it better myself except maybe to summarize it... "Sh*t happens".


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## IgotGASbadDude (Mar 31, 2015)

DRR said:


> You are outside of the warranty period. You have _absolutely no basis_ for a complaint.



Summary from Judge Logical:

"The defendant may (or may not) have produced a defective product. You failed to meet your responsibility of identifying the defect during the clearly defined terms of the warranty. Judgement for defendant. Case closed."

END OF THREAD . . .


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## Skatol (Mar 31, 2015)

Page 12 of Canon 7D user manual:
"If the camera will not be
used for an extended period, remove the battery
and store the camera in a cool, dry, *well-ventilated location*. Even while the
camera is in storage, press the shutter button a few times once in a while to
check that the camera
is still working."
AND:
"If the camera has not been
used for an extended period, *test all its functions*
before using it. *If you have not used the
camera for some time or if there is
an important shoot coming up, have
the camera checked by your Canon
dealer or check the camera
yourself and make sure it is working properly.*"

Even if this occurred within the warranty period Canon would not be obligated to repair (though I'm sure they would) since the proper storage procedure was not followed according to their instructions.



> I used it a few times every four months or so.





> Mainly it sat in weather sealed bag.



I think, in my opinion, Canon has treated you fairly. You asked for opinions, sorry that they ended up not being what you wanted to hear.


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## jdramirez (Mar 31, 2015)

kelpdiver said:


> Your other objection is that the repair cost was nearly as high as the current sale price of the 7d. But this is the clear out price of a model released 5.5 years ago. It's not a realistic comparison. And if you really paid $1500 for it less than 2 years ago, where on earth were you shopping? I paid 1400 for it 4 years ago, and it's routinely been under a grand since. I suspect you're engaging in a bit of hyperbole there.



Last year I bought a used 7d and a 28-135mm for 650... And after selling the lens, my final cost for a like new 7d body was around $500. 

That is uncommon, but certainly the market value for a 7d body wasn't $1500.


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## Magnardo (Mar 31, 2015)

Tacatam. Tacatam, Tacatam.

Like I said, past making sense.

People concentrate again on talking and running their mouths, without reading and processing.

They are preoccupied with just tacatam, tacatam, tacatam.
They isolate something out of context and respond to a single thing that means nothing by itself.
Like I stated before, no one can make another person think, if they themselves do not want to.

Warranty is a proposal and a promise it is not a contract.

You have no say in it.

None.

If every manufacturer out there decides to sell cameras without any warranty , you will have no choice but to buy a camera with no warranty, if you want one. Then, maybe you can sue them for selling you crap. Warranty makes things simpler.

All the cameras I owned over the years, I never had one break because of condensation, or never heard any of the photographers I know, have a camera break because of Condensation.
Only on this tread cameras break very often because of condensation.

I never went boating or scuba diving with Canon equipment.

Camera was broken before Hawaii. Had nothing to do with Hawaii humidity.

As my wife remembered,...I put a few batteries inside, on two different occasions, but wrongly assumed they were discharged. I have 4 Canon batteries. Never used third party. Never ever crossed my mind the camera could be broken because *I trusted in Canon reliability* and also this was not an entry model and also camera was barely used. 

The idea of having back up stuff, is so you can use them if your primary camera breaks.

When you have a better camera, you will use your better camera with your full sensor lenses, until it breaks, because it produces better results. The stand in actor may or may not work, if the main actor wants to do more.

Logically , for me, the only time to use the 7D, was when I did not want to jeopardize the 5D, parties etc, for sports as it has faster frames per sec, or when I needed the versatility and the convenience of the 17-55 IS. I like using primes so,... not that much for me. 

Camera was NOT not used for two years. It was used every so often but not too often, when I tried the 15-35 Sigma or with the other Cannon crop sensor zoom lens 17-55 and when I used the 135 to get closer to something. Every few months or so. Sorry I did not keep a log of its usage, but it is safe to assume every 3-4 months. 

Never kept camera in waterproof bag, kept it in weather sealed bag. Which is not the same thing.
It means that it shields it from rain, if exposed. It was never exposed to any rain.

I do not think I have strong condensation in my house.


Personal Conclusion,...Condensation does not happen very often, under normal circumstances, except on this tread.

The camera broke because it was bad to begin with.

I do not like it. It feels wrong.

Money? 

I got two kids.
350$ means more then it did before.
Let me repeat, before I had kids, I had no kids.

The main issue that bothers me, though, is basically fairness.
Not the fairness of the binding none existent contract but that of doing the right thing.

If the circuit is bad, even if it's out of warranty, it's the manufacturer's fault.
They sold a bad piece of equipment.
If I did not catch it in time, it's a matter of circumstance.
It's not one of those things that had a limited life span and goes bad through extensive usage.

All you guys concentrate on Warranty , Warranty , Warranty.
Fine.
The manufacturer is very nice to offer warranty for their products.
Once the warranty expires the manufacturer has fulfilled the warranty promise and nobody has any real leverage to ask for anything more.
They behaved correctly according to the rules they set before hand. They do not have to do anything else.
In my case They did not.

They offered to fix it for 579$.
I said too much.
They said ok,... 350$?
I said ok.
They did not do it because they were nice and tried to help me.
It was another business transaction where they made money.

For me, that's not enough, if what they sold was bad to begin with.

It is enough but it is not enough.

They behaved correctly according to the rules they set before hand but if the part was bad, then it was bad.
We cannot know for sure who is right or wrong and what happened because nobody investigated nothing.

Reading a lot of stuff here, maybe Canon should make a church where a lot of the guys here can pray to Canon.
Basically , the consumer should be eternally grateful for every piece of equipment they buy from them.
*They should not expect it to work past the warranty period. If it works, you should pray some more.*
Everything Canon does is nice and friendly, everything others do, is trying to suck the life out of Canon.

I dropped a Canon camera once.
It broke.
I never expected Canon to fix it.

When I buy a camera that is not cheap.
I expect it to perform for a lot of years and to get a lot of usage out of it.
One year, use it or not use it, is not enough.
Those are the rules, but it's not enough.

In fact nobody would buy cameras if they all would die after one year.
The general understanding and expectation is that the cameras should work for many years and not break.

I understand that it is hard to offer individual warranty based on individual camera problems and this is the convenient encompass all variant and that's ok. 

In my case,....Canon did everything correctly.
Question is,...Was it enough to make me buy more of their stuff?

Now,..Next time I decide to spend money, do I have the right to be picky about where and who I spend it with?
I think so.

Do I feel my trust in Cannon was shaken?
Yes I do.

I will remember your advice next time I see a Cannon billboard.
I will say: Sorry Cannon,...S___ happens. 

It could have been forever love, but this relationship was fun.
See I am not married to Canon, like a lot of you here.

Everything said,....I am still deeply in love with my 5D March III and 85 1.2 (which I do not know how people complain about autofocus,...I can shoot sports with it no problem. Mine is very very responsive,) Also 135 2 and 100 2.8 and 35 1.4 are Lovely.

I will not post on this because there is no more juice left.
We have all squeezed everything out already.

Thank you.
I've learned a few.

Jdramirez Nice picture of your daughter with the 85 1.2. 
The piano makes it look really cool.
Your daughter is very beautiful.

This is , if you can take a compliment from an unaccomplished nonprofessional photographer that probably lies about the price for which he purchased stuff.


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## AcutancePhotography (Mar 31, 2015)

I honestly do not know what the OP wants any more.

Best of luck to you. Hope you can take some nice photographs.


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## Skatol (Mar 31, 2015)

AcutancePhotography said:


> I honestly do not know what the OP wants any more.
> 
> Best of luck to you. Hope you can take some nice photographs.


Nor do I. OP stated he "needs opinions", gets them and then is very unhappy with the results.
Best of luck to him. With this attitude I'm afraid he is in for more disappointment down the road with whomever he deals with.


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## slclick (Mar 31, 2015)

Perhaps a lock is needed


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## Don Haines (Mar 31, 2015)

Dude,

Sometimes cameras die for no particularly good reason. Shit happens! I just swapped out a pair of hard drives.... they failed after about a year's usage. I could go on a rampage about how unreliable Western Digital hard drives are because these two barely made it to the end of the warranty.... but the other 478 drives in the array are chugging along just fine.

Why did those two die and not the others? They were all the same temperature, they all saw the same duty cycle.... what was different?

NOBODY can manufacture to perfect tolerances. Things either fail almost instantly, or they follow a bell curve. Your camera died on the near side of the bell curve, but not excessively so. We do not know all the mitigating factors and neither do you. Some possibilities were suggested, and mitigating actions were suggested to help alleviate this problem in the future, but even if we did know what happened, IT DOES NOT MATTER AS THE CAMERA IS DEAD!

I am not being harsh, I am being realistic. Shit happens, deal with it. Learn from it. This can happen to any piece of gear from any manufacturer.

Nothing new (including this post) is being said. This thread has gone nuts and will start attracting squirrels soon....


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## RustyTheGeek (Mar 31, 2015)

Skatol said:


> AcutancePhotography said:
> 
> 
> > I honestly do not know what the OP wants any more.
> ...



Based on the impressive amount of screen space used by all of the OP's lengthy posts in response to everyone in a thread he started, I guess he wants the attention. That and some kind of validation from this forum to the same points he made in the beginning which he continues to stubbornly repeat in an attempt to somehow make them sound more justified. And with each repetition, the points become more personal and therefore more deeply entrenched. From a psychological standpoint, it's rather interesting. I'm not saying this in a negative or critical way, it's just an observation of how things seem to be progressing. But I'm wearing my fire coat so flame away if you like.

And I also hope you make many beautiful images in the future using whatever photo gear helps you love the hobby. After all, the whole point is to enjoy the craft, the comradery and fellowship. Right? I wish the OP all the best in that regard.


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## unfocused (Mar 31, 2015)

RustyTheGeek said:


> ...Based on the impressive amount of screen space used by all of the OP's lengthy posts in response to everyone in a thread he started, I guess he wants the attention. That and some kind of validation from this forum to the same points he made in the beginning...
> 
> ...From a psychological standpoint, it's rather interesting...



Yes, I have to admit I have a morbid attraction to these kinds of train-wreck threads., although at some point they tend to veer off into territory that usually has me feeling pity for the wives and families of the posters (not being sexist, but it is usually male posters who go seriously off the rails.)

Remember the guy who wrote in mad as hell at his wife, because she bought him a 5DIII, when he wanted an older model 1D? 

Or there was the guy who took his new 6D out in a speedboat in the ocean in the rain. People kept telling him to put it away and he kept saying, "don't worry, it's weatherproof"...except of course, it wasn't and he was shocked...shocked...when it quit working. 

As I recall, these guys didn't get the validation and sympathy they were looking for either. Magnardo's complaint is a little easier to understand, but it seems that what really irritated him is that that people disagreed with him.

My observation is: if you want sympathy, call your mom. If you write to an internet forum, expect people to disagree with you.


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## IgotGASbadDude (Mar 31, 2015)

This post is merely to push the insanity to page 10.

Wait for it . . .


Wait for it . . .


Wait for it . . . 


Wait for it . . .


Wait for it . . .


Wait for it . . .


Wait for it . . . 


Wait for it . . .


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## RustyTheGeek (Mar 31, 2015)

IgotGASbadDude said:


> This post is merely to push the insanity to page 10.
> 
> Wait for it . . .



It's only going to be page 4 for me... is that a setting or something? Maybe your pages are in metric? LOL!


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## D. (Mar 31, 2015)

Somewhere in this picture, though you can't see him, is a squirrel. Judging you...


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## RustyTheGeek (Mar 31, 2015)

D. said:


> Somewhere in this picture, though you can't see him, is a squirrel. Judging you...



And what a beautiful and peaceful squirrel picture it is!! Very nice.


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## zim (Mar 31, 2015)

There should be some kind of rule like three squirrels and the thread gets locked


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## scarbo (Mar 31, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> We are past making sense now,...and that's fine.
> 
> I've read a few moronic things from these last few contributors.
> 
> ...



I have read most of this thread and just wanted to let you know that I support the sentiments you have expressed in this and other posts. I think you have been perfectly reasonable in your opinions and conduct. 

Unfortunately, there appears to be a lot of unwarranted negativity in this and other photographic forums, especially if someone is voicing some criticism about one company or another. It's still a mystery to me why this is, but you're probably right that some of it can be attributed to planted shills. Others may simply be easily influenced, have shares or certain leanings that compel them towards a combative approach. As I said, I don't get it, but just wanted to let you know you are not alone in your observations.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 31, 2015)

unfocused said:


> RustyTheGeek said:
> 
> 
> > ...From a psychological standpoint, it's rather interesting...
> ...



My main interest in these is that I'm curious if I was right about a specific poster, and alas, in this case I was: Somebody starting off a bit strange tends to spiral down further and further in progress of the discussion.



unfocused said:


> My observation is: if you want sympathy, call your mom. If you write to an internet forum, expect people to disagree with you.



"If you want a friend, buy a dog" ... having said this, I find CR the most civil forum around, save some dr trash threads nobody can really take seriously. So any complaints of the op are really over the top.


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## candc (Mar 31, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> Dude,
> 
> Sometimes cameras die for no particularly good reason. S___ happens! I just swapped out a pair of hard drives.... they failed after about a year's usage. I could go on a rampage about how unreliable Western Digital hard drives are because these two barely made it to the end of the warranty.... but the other 478 drives in the array are chugging along just fine.
> 
> ...


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## Pinchers of Peril (Mar 31, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> Dude,
> 
> Why did those two die and not the others? They were all the same temperature, they all saw the same duty cycle.... what was different?



I think it was probably condensation that killed your hard drives


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 31, 2015)

Pinchers of Peril said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Dude,
> ...



I bet it was a nail.


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## Pinchers of Peril (Mar 31, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Pinchers of Peril said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



Yeah, but there was probably condensation on the nail


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## 3kramd5 (Mar 31, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> Like I said, past making sense.



To whom? I think you are confusing "makes sense" with "says what I want it to say" (something like: you're right, no one should recommend canon since all their cameras are susceptible to mysterious deaths that they'll suggest may have occurred due mythical phenomena).

The fact of the matter is: nobody knows whether it failed because of something they did wrong, something you did wrong, or just bad luck. They met you half-way on a repair when they had no obligation to do so, and to me that's good customer service. 




Magnardo said:


> Only on this tread cameras break very often because of condensation.



It's a well understood and recognized failure, hence the specific instructions on how to avoid it. Where was stated that it's a common failure? 



Magnardo said:


> I do not think I have strong condensation in my house.



If you have air in your house, you have vapor in your house. However, there is no reason to assume that any vapor which may have condensed in your camera came from or did so in your house unless the camera never left your house.



Magnardo said:


> Personal Conclusion,...Condensation does not happen very often, under normal circumstances, except on this tread.



Preposterous. Go outside and look up. Condensation happens all the time. That doesn't mean it leads to damaged electronics all the time. You may have been unlucky.



Magnardo said:


> 350$ means more then it did before.
> Let me repeat, before I had kids, I had no kids.



So don't fix it now. 



Magnardo said:


> If the circuit is bad, even if it's out of warranty, it's the manufacturer's fault.



Also preposterous.

If it came to you bad, of course it's either their or a middle man's fault. If that is the case, by all means show them. 



Magnardo said:


> For me, that's not enough, if what they sold was bad to begin with.



The operative term is *IF*


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## ajfotofilmagem (Mar 31, 2015)

As is well known, the squirrels restore sanity in anachronistic discussions.

Does the weather sealing it is enough to protect your camera from squirrel pee?


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## serendipidy (Mar 31, 2015)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> As is well known, the squirrels restore sanity in anachronistic discussions.
> 
> Does the weather sealing it is enough to protect your camera from squirrel pee?



Now I understand why Nikons need more DR (dribble range) than Canons ;D


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## Magnardo (Mar 31, 2015)

Nothing new,...Anything else?

Please also complain for the fact that you are writing confused crap just to write something, anything.

Easy to write random words with nothing to say.
*
Not everyone* disagreed with what I had to say, some people did.

And the people that did complain vehemently about my 7D camera complaint started really strong from the beginning with a lot of false assumptions and never at any point did they bother to ask any questions about how the camera was kept in order to gather the correct information. They assumed I was guilty of something,..they did not really know what, but they were bent on proving some guilt no matter the costs. 
That proves they showed up with an agenda. They had a target to achieve.
Truth did not matter, just the direction of placing the fault with the consumer by digging and digging and desperately grabbing on to anything they could, but all in one direction.

Other people tried to help with pertinent information and they did just that.

The same people that write garbage and insults also continue this conversation for no reason and then they blame me for responding to their accusatory statements and trying to shed some light on their insistence in spreading of false information.

I do not know how many of them are great photographers but they seem to have a whole lot lot of time to write crap comments on this photography blog.

I do not mind debating valid points but now, this is a waste of everyone's time. 
I kept feeling compelled to respond when untruths were uttered,but the level of this conversation has degraded slowly to the point of respect lacking mumble.

I used to fight bullies in high school even if I occasionally lost.Just for the hell of it, because it felt right. I did not mind getting my ass kicked, if I knew I was right to stand up for something I believed in or someone weak.

That's why I was trying to fend off multiple attackers here and it did not bother me. 
From the beginning the mean ones in bunches, like wolves, made personal observations and attacks without trying to know more or find out anything about me or what happened.

Mind you,....please observe, I did not attack or insult any of the other bloggers, I was having a conversation about a product and a camera Manufacturer and a situation. Nothing personal.

*But now there is no more incentive for me to say anything.*

Any positive information about the situation I was in, was completely exhausted after many repetition.

The stupid people continued and shall continue to prove their stupidity unperturbed.


Nothing more to do.

Enjoy yourselves.

Thank you.


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## Machaon (Mar 31, 2015)

Magnardo said:


> Forget about the lost memories that were lost by trusting on Canon reliability and the quality of their products.
> 
> HOW CAN ANYONE BUY OR RECOMMEND CANON PRODUCTS TO ANYONE THEY DO NOT HATE?



Sorry to hear about your bad experience, mate.

I've used Canon EOS products for maybe 15 years and they have never been anything but rock-solid reliable, including the 7D. (Especially the 7D.) I haven't babied my cameras or lenses, taken them into some fairly hostile places, and they just don't stop.

So I would regard your tale as unusual and unfortunate. Best of luck.


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## rs (Mar 31, 2015)

Nuts


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## slclick (Mar 31, 2015)

It's a bit overdue but....


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