# Which camera setting affect the RAW image ? (NR - Color - Sharpness - etc...)



## fanfan (Aug 28, 2012)

Hello,

I have a 5D MKIII and 7D
I have switch from Nikon to Canon about a year ago
I would like to know, which camera setting affect the RAW image
When I was using Nikon, on some model, the long exposure noise reduction was clearly affecting not only the JPEG but also RAW image

What about Canon? is there any setting (Noise reduction, color, contrast, sharpness, in camera color filter for monochrome image) that will affect the RAW image?
If so, which one?

Thanks for your help
This is my first post, so I want to say hi to everyone


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 28, 2012)

The only one that _directly_ affects RAW is Long Exposure NR, since that takes a dark frame after the exposure and subtracts that from the RAW file before writing it to the card. Note that with Canon, when you set Long Exp NR to off, it really is off (with Nikon, it isn't at least on some models, and there is a median blur filter applied as well, google 'Nikon Mode 3 NR').

The other setting that 'sort of' affects the RAW file is Highlight Tone Priority. This doesn't really modify the RAW data, only the metadata. The camera uses an ISO that's 1 stop less than selected (which is why ISO 100 is unavailable with HTP on), i.e if you select ISO 400, the camera is exposing at ISO 200 (but reporting ISO 400 in the metadata), then it applies a selective tone curve to boost the signal but preserve the highlights. DPP and other RAW converters recognize the HTP flag in the metadata - DPP will apply Canon's tone curve during conversion, other converters will apply their versions. but some converters don't recognize the flag and will just show you an underexposed image.

Do note that NR, color, contrast, saturation, etc., including those settings as applied by a Picture Style, can _indirectly_ affect a RAW image. For a RAW image, the camera generates a JPG preview image that's embedded in the RAW file. That JPG preview is generated using the in-camera settings (picture style, ALO, etc.) even when shooting RAW, it's what is shown on the LCD review, and it's used to generate the histogram. That means if you use the histogram or 'blinkies' (blown highlight alert) to judge exposure, you may expose incorrectly, and that obviously affects the RAW image. You may want to use the Neutral picture style to get a closer approximation of how the RAW file will look, as a basis for the histogram and highlight alert.


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## jointdoc (Aug 28, 2012)

Thank you neuroanatomist. I have always wanted a clear explanation of this and you have provided it.


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## Tcapp (Aug 28, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> The only one that _directly_ affects RAW is Long Exposure NR, since that takes a dark frame after the exposure and subtracts that from the RAW file before writing it to the card. Note that with Canon, when you set Long Exp NR to off, it really is off (with Nikon, it isn't at least on some models, and there is a median blur filter applied as well, google 'Nikon Mode 3 NR').
> 
> The other setting that 'sort of' affects the RAW file is Highlight Tone Priority. This doesn't really modify the RAW data, only the metadata. The camera uses an ISO that's 1 stop less than selected (which is why ISO 100 is unavailable with HTP on), i.e if you select ISO 400, the camera is exposing at ISO 200 (but reporting ISO 400 in the metadata), then it applies a selective tone curve to boost the signal but preserve the highlights. DPP and other RAW converters recognize the HTP flag in the metadata - DPP will apply Canon's tone curve during conversion, other converters will apply their versions. but some converters don't recognize the flag and will just show you an underexposed image.
> 
> Do note that NR, color, contrast, saturation, etc., including those settings as applied by a Picture Style, can _indirectly_ affect a RAW image. For a RAW image, the camera generates a JPG preview image that's embedded in the RAW file. That JPG preview is generated using the in-camera settings (picture style, ALO, etc.) even when shooting RAW, it's what is shown on the LCD review, and it's used to generate the histogram. That means if you use the histogram or 'blinkies' (blown highlight alert) to judge exposure, you may expose incorrectly, and that obviously affects the RAW image. You may want to use the Neutral picture style to get a closer approximation of how the RAW file will look, as a basis for the histogram and highlight alert.



I love the blinkies.


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## marek.sykora (Aug 28, 2012)

What about noise when shooting with HTP=on? Does it mean when I shooting at iso1600 it's in fact iso 800 in term of noise? I have always set HTP on, because results look better for me. Some people claims 7D is too noisy but I happy with iso 1600...

Similar to primary issue. Picture style affects movie, am I right? There is no way to change it easily, right? So it's a good idea to have neutral style for still and some colorful for movie.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 28, 2012)

marek.sykora said:


> What about noise when shooting with HTP=on? Does it mean when I shooting at iso1600 it's in fact iso 800 in term of noise? I have always set HTP on, because results look better for me. Some people claims 7D is too noisy but I happy with iso 1600...



Not exactly - pushing the exposure increases noise, meaning with HTP you get a differential increase in shadow noise in the image.



marek.sykora said:


> Similar to primary issue. Picture style affects movie, am I right? There is no way to change it easily, right? So it's a good idea to have neutral style for still and some colorful for movie.



True. You can also download a Technicolor CineStyle picture style for shooting video.


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## fanfan (Aug 29, 2012)

Thanks a lot for the explanation, this is exactly what I wanted to know 

One more question... Long exposure NR, does it do a good job on Canon camera or better turn it off and fix the image in Lightroom or DPP ?

Thanks again


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## dr croubie (Aug 29, 2012)

Long exposure NR is a bit different to normal NR.

Normal NR, software scans the image and picks out pixels that aren't coloured they way they should be ('should be' is based on what the pixels around them look like).

Long exposure NR is different, as neuro said, the camera takes two photos, one normal one with shutter open, one with the shutter closed. the one with the shutter closed is what the sensor 'sees' all the time, ie where there's noise anyway. So by subtracting that from the normal image, it gets rid of the noise that is always present (like dead-pixels, at least in theory).

Basically, it's always a good thing to have Long Exp NR on all the time (it only happens above 1-second exposures anyway), it's always on on my 7D.

The only times I turn it off are:
- when you're capturing action (not that you'd really capture action with 1-second or longer exposures).
- you're impatient (or your better half is impatient, or it's just freezing outside and you want to get inside quicker)
- capturing star-trails (or other trails) or other HDR work (especially with moving clouds), basically where you're going to merge a lot of files together afterwards. If you're only taking one 30-second exposure every minute (where the other 30-seconds is being used to capture the dark-frame), then your star-trails may have gaps in the final picture.


It's different to the NR you get in DxO, DPP, Lightroom, etc. Long Exposure NR doesn't make your pictures softer like normal NR does. You can probably get the least noise when using both types of NR together.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 29, 2012)

If you're taking a long exposure, especially with dark areas in the image, use long exposure NR in camera. The other option (often used by astrophotographers) is to take a dark frame manually and subtract it (using appropriate software) in post. 'Regular' NR isn't a good substitute.


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## dude (Dec 30, 2012)

I have a 5D iii and I Long Exposure NR set to Auto. I have been taking some really long photo's lately. Some over 15 minutes. I shoot in RAW and I don't experience any wait between photo to start waiting on a dark frame. 

If I take a 30 second picture, are you all sure there is a 30 second dark frame being taken and not just a quick 1 second dark frame?


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 30, 2012)

dude said:


> I have a 5D iii and I Long Exposure NR set to Auto. I have been taking some really long photo's lately. Some over 15 minutes. I shoot in RAW and I don't experience any wait between photo to start waiting on a dark frame.
> 
> If I take a 30 second picture, are you all sure there is a 30 second dark frame being taken and not just a quick 1 second dark frame?



The Auto setting applies Long Exposure NR if the camera 'thinks' there's enough image noise to warrant it. If you're not waiting on a dark frame, the camera doesn't think NR is needed. Try Enable. Note that the manual states Enable may reduce noise that the Auto setting can't detect c


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## dude (Dec 30, 2012)

I enabled it. Took a series of long exposures. No difference. Are we sure about this dark frame behavior? It has never happened to me and I have shot a lot of long exposures the last few weeks.


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## Jesse (Dec 30, 2012)

There seems to always be a longish buffer time after I take a 30 second or longer exposure with my 5D3. Is that because of NR? I don't remember it taking this long with my 5D2....


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 30, 2012)

dude said:


> I enabled it. Took a series of long exposures. No difference. Are we sure about this dark frame behavior? It has never happened to me and I have shot a lot of long exposures the last few weeks.



I'm sure. The dark frame isn't always the same duration as the exposure, depending on the exposure duration. With exposures in the ~1-5 s range, it is, but with exposures longer than ~5 s, the dark frame is ~5 s. The 'longish buffer time' Jesse mentions isn't buffering, it's the dark frame. Watch that red light: it's on during the long exposure, then you'll hear the shutter close, but the light stays on for a few seconds - that's the dark frame being acquired.


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## dude (Dec 31, 2012)

So we are all in agreement what I put in bold (and increased font size) below is incorrect information?



dr croubie said:


> Long exposure NR is a bit different to normal NR.
> 
> Normal NR, software scans the image and picks out pixels that aren't coloured they way they should be ('should be' is based on what the pixels around them look like).
> 
> ...


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 31, 2012)

dude said:


> So we are all in agreement what I put in bold (and increased font size) below is incorrect information?



For the 1D X and presumably the 5DIII, I think so. But...I have a recollection of waiting much longer with previous cameras, so something may have changed (perhaps Canon now extrapolates the noise to save time? Or perhaps my recollection is wrong...maybe I'll pull out the 7D tomorrow and check, if no one beats me to it.).


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## dude (Dec 31, 2012)

I'll be waiting anxiously. 

If you don't, I will get my brothers 7D at some point and get to the bottom of this.


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## ahab1372 (Dec 31, 2012)

Just tried on a T3i. For a 25s exposure it took a 25s dark frame


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## Aglet (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Which camera setting affect the RAW image ? (NR - Color - Sharpness - etc...*



fanfan said:


> One more question... Long exposure NR, does it do a good job on Canon camera or better turn it off and fix the image in Lightroom or DPP ?



In-camera long-exposure NR does a great job of eliminating hot-pixels if you have the time to spare for it to expose and subtract dark frames = to exposure time (up to 30s at least)

BUT, it also INCREASES the baseline (blacklevel) noise slightly on all the the Canon cameras I've tested. (and there's lots)  

you probably won't notice this increased black level noise unless you are also pushing the dark areas up in post to do something like show more foreground detail in a starry sky shot.

I now use a different method to shoot and post-process such shots.


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## Don Haines (Dec 31, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> For the 1D X and presumably the 5DIII, I think so. But...I have a recollection of waiting much longer with previous cameras, so something may have changed (perhaps Canon now extrapolates the noise to save time? Or perhaps my recollection is wrong...maybe I'll pull out the 7D tomorrow and check, if no one beats me to it.).



On the 60D, long exposure noise reduction can be OFF, AUTO, or ON. When set to AUTO it never seems to happen. When I set it to ON it works as expected....Camera set to manual, ISO400, lens cap on, 15 second exposure..... and the shutter stays open for 15 seconds, followed by 15 seconds wait, then the image appears. Change it to bulb mode, hold the shutter down for 60 seconds, then the camera waits for 60 seconds, and the image appears.

And best of all, both pictures are BLACK!


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 31, 2012)

Don Haines said:


> On the 60D, long exposure noise reduction can be OFF, AUTO, or ON. When set to AUTO it never seems to happen. When I set it to ON it works as expected....Camera set to manual, ISO400, lens cap on, 15 second exposure..... and the shutter stays open for 15 seconds, followed by 15 seconds wait, then the image appears. Change it to bulb mode, hold the shutter down for 60 seconds, then the camera waits for 60 seconds, and the image appears.
> 
> And best of all, both pictures are BLACK!



Same on the 7D. And on the 1D X. After checking more carefully, long exposure NR on the 1D X is behaving as normal - wne set to Enable, a 30 s exposure is followed by a 30 s dark frame.

Sorry for the earlier confusion.



dude said:


> I'll be waiting anxiously.



How are you determining that the dark frame is done? After the exposure and a few seconds into the dark frame, the read LCD comes back on (showing the quick control menu). Last night, that's when I stopped the timer - I was holding the camera, and my hand was covering the red light. :-[ But, the red light is still on and the 'shots remaining' display flashes until the dark frame is done, and the review image is displayed. To confirm, on both my 7D and my 1D X, with long exposure NR enabled (not Auto), the dark frame is the same duration as the exposure setting.

So...I recommend checking again, timing from the shutter/mirror click until the red light goes out and the review image shows up - that should be the same length of time as the exposure was set. If not, I'd call Canon.


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## ahab1372 (Dec 31, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> How are you determining that the dark frame is done? After the exposure and a few seconds into the dark frame, the read LCD comes back on (showing the quick control menu). Last night, that's when I stopped the timer - I was holding the camera, and my hand was covering the red light. :-[ But, the red light is still on and the 'shots remaining' display flashes until the dark frame is done, and the review image is displayed. To confirm, on both my 7D and my 1D X, with long exposure NR enabled (not Auto), the dark frame is the same duration as the exposure setting.
> 
> So...I recommend checking again, timing from the shutter/mirror click until the red light goes out and the review image shows up - that should be the same length of time as the exposure was set. If not, I'd call Canon.


Not sure if it applies to 7D/5D/1D, but on the Rebel it helps to turn on Live View. You get a second "clack" at the end of the dark frame, and the display says "BUSY" while it is taking the dark frame


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