# What do you think will be the Shelf life of the EOS 6D ?



## Rams_eos (Jul 15, 2013)

Hi,
I was wondering if you could give your opinion on that? ???

On one side, the 6D is a full frame. The life of such products is around 3 years (on average) until now.
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html

But on the other side, Canon seems to consider the 6D as a consumer camera.
Marketing, button layout, build quality, fps, SD card, same level of CPS support than APS-C, and so on are not definitively on the pro side.
“the EOS 6D is truly the Full-Frame DSLR camera for everyone.” From canon’s website.

So roughly, my question is?
Will the 6D last at least 3 years or will it be renewed every year (like rebel/XXXD) ? 
Thanks to share your ideas.


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## northbyten (Jul 15, 2013)

I reckon 18 months.


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## bholliman (Jul 15, 2013)

2-3 years would be my guess. To me its a similar level camera to the 7D and that is over 3 years old. I don't think the refresh cycle will be anywhere close to the Rebels.


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## captainkanji (Jul 15, 2013)

I hope to get many years out of mine. Most likely, I will sell it when a future 'improved' model comes out (Maybe 2 or three years). For me, I'd like a model that has improved image IQ at high ISOs and more crosstype AF points, but my cut off point for a body is around $2,500. It's not like I 'need' to replace it in 2 years, I just like new gadgets. I really love my 6D. I need to focus on upgrading my lenses. ;D


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## CarlTN (Jul 15, 2013)

To the OP: In asking this question, is it to determine whether the 6D is worth owning for you?

Given Canon's history of introducing new full frame cameras, but taking into account the lower price segment of this new class of full frame cameras...my guess is at least 24 months. If this were 2010 rather than 2013, certainly it would be 36 months or more. It really all depends on what Nikon does, and to a lesser extent, Sony.

The rebel series all sell for $1k and less, and are thus updated more often. The updates they usually get are not major. The rebels are meant to be a compromise, entry level camera. The 6D is meant to be a compromise full frame entry level camera.

The question is, does the market want a "bare bones" autofocus on a full frame camera? Has the Nikon D600 outsold the 6D? I've not seen any official sales figures from Canon or Nikon, and they might not ever release them for specific bodies. The aggressive price drops recently of the 6D, might be an indicator of poor sales, or it might be an indicator that Canon makes an incredibly high profit on this model, no matter how low the price goes.

Certainly the price of used 6D's is holding up, with the lowest on amazon marketplace currently $1624.39. I paid $1760 for mine new in March from Adorama, four and a half months ago!

When the time comes, the 6D's replacement will possibly use the same image sensor, but using "digic 6" or "7". Whether the autofocus sensor gets updated with just minor tweaks, or gets something higher in performance, is probably more due to whether the market wants a $2500 body rather than an under $2k body. Time will tell, they will know what to build before then. Certainly if the 5D3 does not get a major update before then, an amped up 6D definitely would cut into the 5D3's sales...especially if they fix the moire in the video of the 6D. 

So it seems to me the 5D3 would get some kind of update before the 6D does. And Canon will not give the 6D line enough bells and whistles to displace the 5D line. 3 to 5 years from now, as the second update cycle approaches, it's possible the 5D and 6D lines would morph together into one....or not. Just depends on what the market wants, and what other models or product lines are introduced before then. 

As for using the 6D for professional stills photography, I have found it works great. At its fps, it does not need the faster compact flash media. The files are usually just small enough to be dealt with. Shallow depth of field files (often present in action shots) are often 20MB and smaller, RAW. As jpegs they're obviously even smaller.


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## hamada (Jul 15, 2013)

northbyten said:


> I reckon 18 months.



it´s not a xxxD.


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## distant.star (Jul 15, 2013)

.
Interesting question. And frankly, I have no idea since the whole thing has mystified me from the start.

But I'm looking forward to answers, thank you.


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## dstppy (Jul 15, 2013)

Anything with a shelf life should be stamped with a freshness date.

The new twinkies apparently have a longer shelf life, so I'd figure as long as they don't ship with the batteries IN the camera, they can sit there for a few good years, assuming the place doesn't get too hot.

:/


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## brad-man (Jul 15, 2013)

I would guess that the refresh cycle of most of Canon's non-rebel bodies will be determined more by _when_ they release the new 0.18_um _ process sensors rather than historical timelines. _Presumably_, the first will be released in the 7Dll. I can't imagine that a FF version would be too far behind. Since there have been rumors of some new EOS bodies being released in the near future, who knows which cameras will get the updated sensors first.

_Disclaimer: Keep in mind that I have no idea of what I'm talking about..._


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## BPLOL (Jul 16, 2013)

No idea, but I believe we will see at least a new "big megapixel" FF camera, and a new 5D before we ever see another 6D.

The 6D doesn't look like a yearly Rebel. I imagine that if Canon released a new 6D every year, prices would drop _very_ fast - and with added bells and whistles, a updated 6D would eat even more 5D sales (I now it's not on the same league, but hey, before the 6D if I wanted a FF camera the 5D was my only option). I expect two or three years.


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## CarlTN (Jul 16, 2013)

BPLOL said:


> No idea, but I believe we will see at least a new "big megapixel" FF camera, and a new 5D before we ever see another 6D.
> 
> The 6D doesn't look like a yearly Rebel. I imagine that if Canon released a new 6D every year, prices would drop _very_ fast - and with added bells and whistles, a updated 6D would eat even more 5D sales (I now it's not on the same league, but hey, before the 6D if I wanted a FF camera the 5D was my only option). I expect two or three years.



Glad to see someone else agrees with pretty much every point I made.


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## archiea (Jul 16, 2013)

I know people who still shoot with the orig 5D and the 20D. In the case of the former, sometimes they shoot professionally with it. If you are an event or pro photographer where your gear pays for itself, yeah I understand the upgrade cycle concern. However for most other peeps, canon's release cycle is almost irrelevant.


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## Marsu42 (Jul 16, 2013)

bholliman said:


> 2-3 years would be my guess. To me its a similar level camera to the 7D and that is over 3 years old. I don't think the refresh cycle will be anywhere close to the Rebels.



The 6d won't be a very long life product: It's only rated for 150k shutter cycles, plus it has an outdated af system. Note while Canon is hesitant to annoy their premium and pro customers with obsoleting their cameras too soon, but the 6d is a consumer camera (fw/hardware feature set + only cps silver in the EU).

But in this special case my guess is that a replacement doesn't depend on Canon's schedule alone, but rather on the competition just like there wouldn't be a 6d at all if Nikon wouldn't have had thrown down the gauntlet with the d600:

The 6d is built to be further dropped in price a lot, as long as it goes on selling it won't be replaced, once Nikon releases a d600 successor or the 6d sales stall Canon will put a new af system in once the high-mp 5d4 has been released maybe in the end of 2014.


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## Janbo Makimbo (Jul 16, 2013)

I would suggest that those who expect an early demise will be disappointed!! In terms of specs and actual use the camera punches well above its weight!! It is a great camera to use and produces great images, similar to what the 40D was!!

There is, in my opinion, a lot of unfair criticism from those who have eother not used the camera or simply don't know how to use it!!


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## adhocphotographer (Jul 16, 2013)

I guess 2 years... the theoretical cycle time of xxD's.


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## x-vision (Jul 16, 2013)

CarlTN said:


> Just depends on what the market wants ...



Very good points overall and I do agree with them (for a change ).

Anyway, hard to tell how long the 6D will 'live'. 
It definitely won't be replaced next year but who knows what will happen after that.

My overall impression is that the 6D is not selling all that well (unless discounted).
And despite having better specs, Nikon's D600 is not faring better either. 

So, we'll see what happens to the so called 'entry level' FF category in 2015.
Canon might decide that it's better for them to sell a higher-spec'd 6DII for $2500 - rather than the 'entry level' 6D.


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## PKinDenmark (Jul 16, 2013)

I have no idea - and I try not to bother 

Let me elaborate a bit: 
I upgraded from a Rebel / 450D, that I used and enjoyed for 4½ years. 
Now the 6D represents a giant step forward in capabilites (FF / low light capabilities / better AF / WiFi / ergonomics ......).
And it allows me to move upwards again on my own learning-curve. 
So I am certain the 6D will stay on my shelf (when not in use) for a long while.

After having a look in my crystal-ball I assume, that (again) my next new body will be some significant step forward in technology - be it new sensor generation (180 nm process?), mirror-less, ... ? .. who knows. And probably only when this new technology has reached some level of maturity.

Untill then: I will enjoy my great new tool, the 6D. 
Some upgrades are very likely - will be in additional quality optics, flash etc. 

By the way: Just now I have my hands on a Canon TS/E 24mm II. 
What a fine and interesting tool, and it works just great with the 6D.


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## munkymorgy (Jul 16, 2013)

PKinDenmark said:


> I upgraded from a Rebel / 450D, that I used and enjoyed for 4½ years.
> Now the 6D represents a giant step forward in capabilites (FF / low light capabilities / better AF / WiFi / ergonomics ......).
> And it allows me to move upwards again on my own learning-curve.



Ditto, except I upgraded from a 400D, so it has been a bit closer to 7 years for me. Sticking with an older camera with less ISO range has taught me a lot about how to hand hold the camera in low light. 

Given that the 6D is a lot more camera and has a lot more ISO range there would have to be something really special for me to consider upgrading again in the next 5 years. Unless of course I start making bucket loads of money from photography and the equipment cost becomes irrelevant


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## Rams_eos (Jul 16, 2013)

Thanks for the interesting points here.

I don’t know the sales figure for 6D but it seems Nikon D600 suffered from the “Dustgate” despite being a “better speced” camera. So if Nikon release a D600_2 (to give it a better reputation), it is likely Canon will have to respond with something. In that case, it will be nothing revolutionary like Digic 6, slightly better AF…

I don’t think Canon will do anything to cannibalize 5D3 sales but with Sony also coming FF, they may still want to keep a good market share for “Cheap” FF cameras. And so pushing it make sense. 

However, it is unlikely the average consumer will spend over 2000$/Euro on a FF camera.


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## Hannes (Jul 16, 2013)

I think it'll depend on what Nikon does with the D600. I'm hoping it'll get replaced sooner rather than later with a better AF system so my hope would be around 2 years.

It is obvious how canon sees the camera, the 6D falls into the same CPS category as a 40D which should hopefully mean it'll be changed quicker. It would also be a reasonable upgrade if they specced it with a better AF system and could see the enthusiasts upgrade.


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## Cariboucoach (Jul 16, 2013)

Janbo Makimbo said:


> I would suggest that those who expect an early demise will be disappointed!! In terms of specs and actual use the camera punches well above its weight!! It is a great camera to use and produces great images, similar to what the 40D was!!
> 
> [size=12pt]As good as the 40D is/was, that is what I shoot with, it was replaced by the 50D in about 15 months. Why was such a good camera replaced so early in it's cycle? Yet I don't think they will do that with the 6D.
> 
> Leo[/size]


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## RTPVid (Jul 16, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> ...just like there wouldn't be a 6d at all if Nikon wouldn't have had thrown down the gauntlet with the d600...



The 6D was introduced maybe 3 months after the D600. People who say things like this apparently have no idea what is involved in developing a new high tech consumer product and the time it takes to bring it to market.


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## CarlTN (Jul 16, 2013)

x-vision said:


> CarlTN said:
> 
> 
> > Just depends on what the market wants ...
> ...



Thanks, and it shouldn't be "for a change"...my points are always valid...there...yes I did say that! Your personal animus toward me is simply the result of schoolyard group think on this forum, nothing more.

It's not my impression that the 6D and D600 are not selling well. I suspect the 6D has outsold the 5D3, since the 6D was released. That might not mean that it is "selling well", since the 5D3 had been out a while...but to me it does seem like it's holding it's own. Again, the dropping price, is the result of the product finding its true price...and not the result of discounts which weren't meant to cut into profit. I.E., Canon intro'd it as a $2k camera, took those higher margin profits, then let the price settle where they meant for it to be all along. Again, the price for used units has not dropping accordingly...so there is decidedly high perceived value for the product in the marketplace. If there was not...again you would see the asking price for most of the used units well under $1400 right now. And they're still from $1600 and up.

As for an up-spec 6D2, keep in mind that this would move the 5D4 farther up market, closer to $4000+. Perhaps everyone who loves the 5D3 who posts on this forum, would immediately pay $4k, or even $5k for a 5D4. But would the vast majority of those who buy it want to spend that much more? I submit that they would not. Canon seems to know how to run a business, their business model works, their products are high quality for the most part...they are Number One in the world...so I trust their judgment. If they want to turn a 6D2 into something very close to the current 5D3, and turn the 5D4 into an even higher spec camera...then they will know they're making the right call. I just don't see that happening at all.


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## x-vision (Jul 16, 2013)

CarlTN said:


> Thanks, and it shouldn't be "for a change"...my points are always valid...there...yes I did say that!



Heh. I mean to say that we are, for a change, in agreement - unlike other times, when we argue 8). 



> If they want to turn a 6D2 into something very close to the current 5D3, and turn the 5D4 into an even higher spec camera...then they will know they're making the right call. I just don't see that happening at all.



I see you point but there are other equally valid views as well. 

Like I said, I'm waiting to see what happens to the 'entry level FF' concept.
Both Canon and Nikon will likely do some reshuffling of their FF lineups. 
Just my opinion. We'll see.


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## tcmatthews (Jul 17, 2013)

Not sure but I fully expect the release of the Rebel F next year. It will contain the exact same senor as the 6D. Loose the shoulder display. It will have a pentamirror instead of the pentaprism and be around the same size as existing rebels. It will have articulating screen. Should complete Canons goal to move to full frame dominance. It would also end any need to have a major sensor update in the rebel line for the next 4-5 years.

Intro price around 1500 but street will be around 1100 within 6 months. 

End sarky but plausible remark that will most likely never happen.


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## Dylan777 (Jul 17, 2013)

northbyten said:


> I reckon 18 months.



It's single digit model(6D), not 60D, rebel or consumer level cameras.

How long 7D(single digit) been around again?


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## jdramirez (Jul 17, 2013)

I didn't read all the comments, but I think of the 6D as the 5d mkii mkii. It is basically a upgraded and stripped down 5d mkii as I see it though I do acknowledge all of the upgrades the 6D has over the mkii. But I tend to agree with others that it isn't going to have a yearly cycle. The 60D has been out for three years, the 7D for four years, and bother of those are considered consumer or prosumer cameras. The demand for a good quality full frame option at a reasonable cost is rather high (I'm surprised at exactly how so). So they will keep pumping them out as long as people buy them. It also helps to separate and inflate the price of the 5D mkiii because those who need the 5d mkiii performance know they have to shell out more money for better otherwise they are settling for an excellent camera, but one that might not fit the bill.


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## MLfan3 (Jul 17, 2013)

Hannes said:


> I think it'll depend on what Nikon does with the D600. I'm hoping it'll get replaced sooner rather than later with a better AF system so my hope would be around 2 years.
> 
> It is obvious how canon sees the camera, the 6D falls into the same CPS category as a 40D which should hopefully mean it'll be changed quicker. It would also be a reasonable upgrade if they specced it with a better AF system and could see the enthusiasts upgrade.



well, I have both the 6D and D600 and the D600 AF is not better in any area.
seriously , the D600 AF is the same old consumer grade AF of the D7000, which is very inaccurate and unreliable.
you may be an only Canon system user and are not very aware of the other side(Nikon). 

many many Nikon shooters consider the D600/7000 AF was one of the worst AF systems ever made by Nikon despite of its quite decent paper specs.

Nikon tends to give you great numbers on paper but in real life it does not work as well as the spec sheet suggests.
I wished my D600 had gotten the same AF used in my D800E(or the D4).
That said even the D4 AF is not as good as the 5D3 AF , and the for that AF , I may make complete switch to Canon after a couple of church events over in this summer.
I still prefer UI of Nikon since I am very very very used to shooting D800/D700/D600 but now video and AF are becoming most important aspect of camera qualities, at least in my area of work.
the 6d AF on paper is poor , but in real life it is excellent, at least the center point of it is very very sensitive and reliable even in an extremely dark church or rave.
I think having even one very sensitive AF sensor is better than having useless 39 points that cannot focus in dim light.
honestly, the D600 is one of the most over rated and hyped cameras ever , it is not that good.
it has dust issue , LV issue ,LCD green cast issue and its weak plastic pop-up flash makes my PCE lenses useless(I really hate popup-crap , and never understand why Nikon has to put that crap in every Nikon prosumer camera?)
the 6D was harshly criticized when it was first announced but most of its actual users love it while many many D600 users having the infamous dust issue or AF issue or LV issue or all of these like me.
so, if possible, go Amazon.com and read some D600 horror stories and compared that to EOS6D reviews.
the 6D is bashed only by haters or trolls but the real users love it.


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## jdramirez (Jul 17, 2013)

MLfan3 said:


> Hannes said:
> 
> 
> > I think it'll depend on what Nikon does with the D600. I'm hoping it'll get replaced sooner rather than later with a better AF system so my hope would be around 2 years.
> ...



That is very interesting. I'm glad to know I'm not missing out on anything AMAZING!


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## kaihp (Jul 17, 2013)

Does the commercial shelf life of the 6D really matter to you? - my step mother has been photographing professionally with her 1Ds since 2003, and have only just now bought a 5D3 as replacement.


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## RGF (Jul 17, 2013)

bholliman said:


> 2-3 years would be my guess. To me its a similar level camera to the 7D and that is over 3 years old. I don't think the refresh cycle will be anywhere close to the Rebels.



Agree 2-3 years. But just because there is a new model, does not mean the old model will stop working. I have a 12 year old 500mm F4. Still works great even though a newer model is out. I used my 1D M4 for 18 months after the 1Dx was released.

So unless you need the latest model, don't worry about life cycle - if the new model has some feature you absolutely must have, then you can upgrade.


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## wsheldon (Jul 18, 2013)

RGF said:


> So unless you need the latest model, don't worry about life cycle - if the new model has some feature you absolutely must have, then you can upgrade.



+1

I enjoy reading about the latest camera tech and ogling each new iteration of camera body (that's why I follow CR, after all), but it is important to keep perspective. I only buy new bodies every 3-4 years when I'm ready to "grow" into a new area of photography. I just bought my first FF camera (6D) because I wanted to explore portraiture and other subjects that benefit from shallow DOF. If I get more serious about event photography or wildlife I may eventually get a 5DIII or 1D, but why break the bank now?

Also my older cameras are still great tools, and the existence of newer bodies doesn't change that as RGF says. In fact I just got a 13x19 print from my old 20D + 17-40 into a highly competitive juried art exhibition, and that camera is still clicking away in the hands of my son who's starting out.


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## CarlTN (Jul 19, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> bholliman said:
> 
> 
> > 2-3 years would be my guess. To me its a similar level camera to the 7D and that is over 3 years old. I don't think the refresh cycle will be anywhere close to the Rebels.
> ...



I think the 6D has been a good seller, and have not seen any stats that say otherwise. And again, I don't see its replacement coming earlier than 24 months after initial release. As for the 150k shutter cycles...I thought it was only 100k. Also thought 100k rating was average, and the only body that's rated for more than 150k is the 1Dx, is it not? Pretty sure the 5D3 is not rated for more than 150k. In any case, that's still a lot of cycles. I don't go out and just hold the shutter down all day long, I only have like 7000 cycles on mine in 4 months, and it feels like I've used it a lot.

You're right about one thing, that Nikon's product release has a lot of impact on what Canon releases.


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## CarlTN (Jul 19, 2013)

x-vision said:


> CarlTN said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks, and it shouldn't be "for a change"...my points are always valid...there...yes I did say that!
> ...



Good point. Canon might even bring out a full frame mirrorless to compete with Sony. If it could use EF lenses without an adaptor, it seems like a viable option. If it needed special lenses and an adaptor to use EF lenses, then maybe it won't happen.


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## Marsu42 (Jul 19, 2013)

CarlTN said:


> I think the 6D has been a good seller, and have not seen any stats that say otherwise.



Canon's interest in volume is secondary, as every company they're after profits. So the question is how far the 6d price drops after other enthusiast cameras with much better af are released (70d, 7d2) that also have good iq for most of us. If the profit margin becomes too small, they'll release a 6d2. They won't do it just for sticking a "new" badge on the 6d2 like the quick succession of Rebels though.



CarlTN said:


> As for the 150k shutter cycles...I thought it was only 100k. Also thought 100k rating was average, and the only body that's rated for more than 150k is the 1Dx, is it not? Pretty sure the 5D3 is not rated for more than 150k. In any case, that's still a lot of cycles.



Uhg, you're correct, the 6d has only a 100k rating, just like my 60d and the Nikon d600. I had 150k (like 5d3) in mind since I see the 6d as the "real" 5d2 successor which also has 150k... the 1d series have 200k or even 300k.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jul 19, 2013)

x-vision said:


> CarlTN said:
> 
> 
> > My overall impression is that the 6D is not selling all that well (unless discounted).
> ...


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## Jay Khaos (Jul 19, 2013)

I was going to ask the same... mine only shows the month, no year


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## BrettS (Jul 19, 2013)

distant.star said:


> .
> Interesting question. And frankly, I have no idea since the whole thing has mystified me from the start.
> 
> But I'm looking forward to answers, thank you.



+1


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## CarlTN (Jul 20, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> CarlTN said:
> 
> 
> > I think the 6D has been a good seller, and have not seen any stats that say otherwise.
> ...



You'll find I'm correct about a lot of things...and don't compare 1.6x crop cameras to full frame. The 6D's price on new units has fallen about as far as it ever will until its replacement is announced. Used units still holding up well, as I have stated a few times. If you start seeing a lot of used units in new condtion start selling below $1400, I will be very surprised.


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## Marsu42 (Jul 20, 2013)

CarlTN said:


> You'll find I'm correct about a lot of things



My, someone's take a lot of self confidence pills this morning :-> ... or do you have any professional/nda insight into Canon internals?



CarlTN said:


> and don't compare 1.6x crop cameras to full frame. The 6D's price on new units has fallen about as far as it ever will until its replacement is announced.



Big -1 ... it's dropping €25 every week and now reached nearly €1600, that's coming from €2100 at the start of the year when the 6d was just out. I'd wager the guess it will continue dropping like this to at least €1400 and Canon will still make a healthy profit looking at the build quality & components of the 6d.



CarlTN said:


> Used units still holding up well, as I have stated a few times.



Same with 5d2, and that's discontinued - to me it seems L lenses and ff cameras simply have a high resale value, no matter what the current market position of new units is.


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## CarlTN (Jul 20, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> CarlTN said:
> 
> 
> > You'll find I'm correct about a lot of things
> ...



Not sure I agree 100%, but mostly we agree. I don't speak in terms of euros, or whatever that symbol is...I'm only familiar with prices I have seen in US Dollars. I have no idea how the pricing is going in Europe, other than apparently the 6D has sold for generally a higher price than the Nikon D600 over there...as some of you have pointed out to me.

1600 euros, is like $2,200, is it not? It would almost save you money if you just flew here and bought a US version, then flew home. Well, maybe if you stowed away aboard a freighter ship or something!


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 20, 2013)

CarlTN said:


> You'll find I'm correct about a lot of things...and don't compare 1.6x crop cameras to full frame. The 6D's price on new units has fallen about as far as it ever will until its replacement is announced. Used units still holding up well, as I have stated a few times. If you start seeing a lot of used units in new condtion start selling below $1400, I will be very surprised.



You will find that it is you who are mistaken, about a great many things. . Sorry, Star Wars marathon was on recently. 

FWIW, it's current price is a couple of hundred dollars higher than it was a couple of months ago. 







An even lower nadir would not come as a surprise to me, perhaps even before the holidays. A crop user upgrading to FF means Canon profits from EF lenses bought to replace EF-S lenses


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## CarlTN (Jul 20, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> CarlTN said:
> 
> 
> > You'll find I'm correct about a lot of things...and don't compare 1.6x crop cameras to full frame. The 6D's price on new units has fallen about as far as it ever will until its replacement is announced. Used units still holding up well, as I have stated a few times. If you start seeing a lot of used units in new condtion start selling below $1400, I will be very surprised.
> ...



I was speaking about the recent low prices posted on CR from ebay sellers for supposed "new" units, in the $1500 to $1600 range (which is about 1000 euros or so...) I paid $1760 for mine, new...but got a card and a small camera bag as part of the deal...so the total was $1790.

If you're saying we will see, for example either Adorama, B&H, or Amazon, selling a new 6D body by holidays 2013, for under $1500 US dollars...I will be surprised. If that does happen, then it is likely there could be a short-lived swath of "used" units selling around $1400 or a bit under, in the months following (after they play with it a while and wait for the price on new units to climb back above $1700 or so).

Don't ever apologize to me for Star Wars quotes!! "Who's the more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him?" The answer is obvious, but he was illustrating a point...to not follow fools.

Apparently 2010 was a very kind year to you...


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## eha (Jul 21, 2013)

[list type=decimal]
[*]The 6D's *AF system* is not old or bad in any way. I've used the 5D2 quite a bit, and the AF system of my 6D is simply much, much better. It's more responsive, faster and more reliable. Although it's not as good as the 5D3 or the 7D in most areas, it's leagues ahead of 5D2 which feels outdated.
[*]The *IQ* of the 6D is at least as good as 5D3 (slightly less detail, but also slightly less noise).
[*]The *build* of the 6D is at least as good as my 7D, and ergonomics are way better than the 5D2. It's just way more modern in every aspect. It's light and it _still_ feels utterly solid. Bravo, Canon!
[*]Wifi and GPS are very useful.
[*]The silent mode is really great!
[*]It has interchangable focus screens!
[*]The camera is a joy to use. Extremely reponsive and fast. Great value and leagues ahead of 5D2.
[/list]

These are facts that spec nazis will never understand.

Shelf life? Pfft. Happy picture taking


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## verysimplejason (Jul 21, 2013)

The only thing I want to improve in 6D is to have at least a 9-11 pts all cross type AF with -2EV sensitivity (or 19AF which maybe is too much to ask for?), 8 bit channel read (I envy what ML might do with a 70D) and compact flash card instead of SD. I can still wait a little bit for the next generation 6D since I don't trust 1st generations that much. 8)


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## Janbo Makimbo (Jul 21, 2013)

eha said:


> [list type=decimal]
> [*]The 6D's *AF system* is not old or bad in any way. I've used the 5D2 quite a bit, and the AF system of my 6D is simply much, much better. It's more responsive, faster and more reliable. Although it's not as good as the 5D3 or the 7D in most areas, it's leagues ahead of 5D2 which feels outdated.
> [*]The *IQ* of the 6D is at least as good as 5D3 (slightly less detail, but also slightly less noise).
> [*]The *build* of the 6D is at least as good as my 7D, and ergonomics are way better than the 5D2. It's just way more modern in every aspect. It's light and it _still_ feels utterly solid. Bravo, Canon!
> ...



+1


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## Hillsilly (Jul 21, 2013)

Canon's upgrade cycle seems more aligned with the price of the camera. My crystal ball is telling me 18months. We'll see a 6Dii mid next year.

The release of the 7Dii will be the big factor. If the 7Dii has an improved sensor, improved AF and sells for a similar price to the 6D, I can see Canon rolling out a 6Dii shortly after. I suspect the 6Dii will have more megapixels (>24mp) and maybe slightly improved AF. For around $2k, you could then choose performance and better weather sealing with the 7Dii (which will probably stay around 16mp), higher MP with the 6Dii, or spend a little more for the 5Diii for a better combination of performance and features with a FF body. 

My old banger is a 1Ds Mkii. I've been thinking about upgrading it for a while, but I'm a member of a camera club and every month we get a well known photographer to be a guest speaker. Nearly all of them are professional photographers. A surprising number still use the same camera as me. Very few have new cameras. While that probably says more about the pay rates of photographers, it also shows that you often don't need the latest and greatest as long as you know how to use your camera properly. In my case, as long as I stay in the 100-400 ISO range (which I do 99% of the time), the images are comparable with all other cameras. And if I venture into higher ISOs, it isn't as though the images are "bad". Shelf life - wouldn't worry about it. As long as a new camera doesn't offer something that you "need", who cares about it?


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## jrista (Jul 21, 2013)

Personally, I think a camera has a shelf life for as long as it is useful to you, and not holding you back from your real potential. Particularly with the latter, if either of those become untrue, then you probably need to upgrade.

Recently I purchased the EF 600mm f/4 L IS II. I purchased it because my previous lens, the EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS, was holding be back. I couldn't fill the frame with my subjects, and even when I did manage to, things weren't as sharp as I really wanted. My upgrade was incredibly expensive...however it solved my problems, I am no longer being held back by my lens, and this purchase should last me for 20 years, if not a lifetime.

(Only problem now is I realize the 7D really is a noisy bugger, and it's AF system is rather spotty...)


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## eha (Jul 21, 2013)

verysimplejason said:


> The only thing I want to improve in 6D is to have at least a 9-11 pts all cross type AF with -2EV sensitivity (or 19AF which maybe is too much to ask for?), 8 bit channel read (I envy what ML might do with a 70D) and compact flash card instead of SD. I can still wait a little bit for the next generation 6D since I don't trust 1st generations that much. 8)


There's really no need for CF cards anymore, now that there's UHS-I (which only 6D and not 5D3 supports, by the way) and the soon-to-come UHS-II SD card standard which approaches 250 MB/s read/write speeds.


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## CarlTN (Jul 23, 2013)

eha said:


> [list type=decimal]
> [*]The 6D's *AF system* is not old or bad in any way. I've used the 5D2 quite a bit, and the AF system of my 6D is simply much, much better. It's more responsive, faster and more reliable. Although it's not as good as the 5D3 or the 7D in most areas, it's leagues ahead of 5D2 which feels outdated.
> [*]The *IQ* of the 6D is at least as good as 5D3 (slightly less detail, but also slightly less noise).
> [*]The *build* of the 6D is at least as good as my 7D, and ergonomics are way better than the 5D2. It's just way more modern in every aspect. It's light and it _still_ feels utterly solid. Bravo, Canon!
> ...



Well said!


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## jrista (Jul 23, 2013)

eha said:


> verysimplejason said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing I want to improve in 6D is to have at least a 9-11 pts all cross type AF with -2EV sensitivity (or 19AF which maybe is too much to ask for?), 8 bit channel read (I envy what ML might do with a 70D) and compact flash card instead of SD. I can still wait a little bit for the next generation 6D since I don't trust 1st generations that much. 8)
> ...



There are other problems with SD cards. The worst being that they degrade in performance rather considerably, shockingly quickly once they start getting use. As far as I know, only a few of the top end SD card types (i.e. SanDisk Extreme Pro) actually perform any kind of wear leveling.

All of the major CF cards, such as SanDisk, Transcend, Lexar, do wear leveling in their UDMA 6 and 7 devices, so they maintain their write performance for a much longer period of time. So, while a brand new SD UHS-II might achieve 250mb/s, I am always wary about that amazing performance degrading to half that, or less, within a month or two of my average use (I usually come home with 32 to 48 Gb of new photos from each outing, and there are times when I'm out photographing every day of the week.) So far, my four 16Gb Transcend CF 600x cards are still spinning like new over a year and a half later. I can't recall a single SD card that ever performed at its peak for more than a couple months.

So...I wouldn't call CF irrelevant. It is far from it.


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## CarlTN (Jul 23, 2013)

jrista said:


> eha said:
> 
> 
> > verysimplejason said:
> ...



Out of curiosity, what UHS-I SD cards have you used, and on what devices?


----------



## dgatwood (Jul 23, 2013)

jrista said:


> There are other problems with SD cards. The worst being that they degrade in performance rather considerably, shockingly quickly once they start getting use.



That's probably caused by the cameras not supporting TRIM (which allows the flash part to pre-erase flash pages that contain only deleted files so that writing to them does not require you to wait for an erase cycle) and/or not having enough spares (which are pre-erased ahead of time).




jrista said:


> As far as I know, only a few of the top end SD card types (i.e. SanDisk Extreme Pro) actually perform any kind of wear leveling.



AFAIK, almost all flash cards made since the late 1990s have wear leveling. Even 2000-era CF cards did wear leveling. Not all SD cards (or all CF cards, for that matter) do *static* wear leveling, unfortunately. This means that flash pages that never change also never get migrated to new pages so that the low-write-count pages can be used for new content. As a result, if you fill up a card and then repeatedly delete one picture and rewrite it, you'll start hitting write errors much more quickly than you would with a better flash card.




jrista said:


> All of the major CF cards, such as SanDisk, Transcend, Lexar, do wear leveling in their UDMA 6 and 7 devices, so they maintain their write performance for a much longer period of time.



Wear leveling has nothing to do with write performance. Wear leveling is about write endurance—how long you can keep replacing files before the part starts generating I/O errors.


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## CarlTN (Jul 23, 2013)

dgatwood said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > There are other problems with SD cards. The worst being that they degrade in performance rather considerably, shockingly quickly once they start getting use.
> ...



I learn something new every day!


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## jrista (Jul 24, 2013)

dgatwood said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > There are other problems with SD cards. The worst being that they degrade in performance rather considerably, shockingly quickly once they start getting use.
> ...



I know CF cards have had decent wear leveling for a while. I used to use SanDisk SD cards for a number of generations until last year when I got a 7D. I remember them being quite slow most of the time, even on newer compacts that had UHS support. I am not sure if any of the cameras had TRIM support or not, but it would make sense if that was the primary cause of the performance degredation. I've never really been a formatter...I don't think I've ever formatted even one of my CF cards, and I did not format my SD cards very often. It is entirely possible that forced continual wiping of deleted files for each write...I can understand that decimating write performance. 

I suspect the 7D does support TRIM, as my CF cards seem to be as clippy today as they've ever been (I can still usually burst ~35 shots before the camera slows down, and before the 7D firmware update, I was usually able to burst 28, when the actual rated limits were 18 and 24, and most of these cards are over a year old, having been written to hundreds of times.)


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## yura5555 (Jul 24, 2013)

MLfan3 said:


> Hannes said:
> 
> 
> > I think it'll depend on what Nikon does with the D600. I'm hoping it'll get replaced sooner rather than later with a better AF system so my hope would be around 2 years.
> ...



+1. I've upgraded from 350D - had it for 7,5 years. i think for my prosumer photos it'll be great for another 5-7 years IQ is great, central AF is great even in dim light (get used to only one point on 350D).

and now i have no regrets or thoughts of another upgrade.

only bought on sale EOS M + 22f2 + 18-55 STM + 90 EX + mount adapter - to use as second camera (for parents/wife) - or travel purposes and mount big EF lenses when want to

so doesn't matter shelf life. What does matter - do you like it and pictures made by it, or not and want something else (than look 5dMk3 or new 7dMk2 or else)

P.s. as for SD cards - for ordinary users SD cards are better - i just bought 2 sundisk 64gb 30mbs MicroSD +adapter for 50$ each - and have no problems with buffer or video records - and i can use they same card with tablet/phone/Macbook Pro etc.


----------



## dgatwood (Jul 24, 2013)

jrista said:


> dgatwood said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



TRIM was introduced in CF 6.0, which was not finalized until 2010 (a year after the 7D was released). So if the 7D supports TRIM, it was added in a firmware update.

The SD standard has provided an ERASE command since the dawn of time that can be used to pre-erase a flash page. eMMC 4.5 (2011) defined a more exact TRIM equivalent that lets the flash card decide when to erase the page.


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## johnhenry (Jul 29, 2013)

I would say it has a lifespan similar to some of the prosumer models. It is kind of a stopgap camera, meant to test the waters to see how a FF camera with fewer features would do.

I Believe it would just scavenge sales from their Pro FF cameras, not generate addition revenue by "upselling" people from lower cost cameras.


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## pedro (Jul 29, 2013)

Hillsilly said:


> Canon's upgrade cycle seems more aligned with the price of the camera. My crystal ball is telling me 18months. We'll see a 6Dii mid next year.
> 
> The release of the 7Dii will be the big factor. If the 7Dii has an improved sensor, improved AF and sells for a similar price to the 6D, I can see Canon rolling out a 6Dii shortly after. I suspect the 6Dii will have more megapixels (>24mp) and maybe slightly improved AF. For around $2k, you could then choose performance and better weather sealing with the 7Dii (which will probably stay around 16mp), higher MP with the 6Dii, or spend a little more for the 5Diii for a better combination of performance and features with a FF body.
> 
> My old banger is a 1Ds Mkii. I've been thinking about upgrading it for a while, but I'm a member of a camera club and every month we get a well known photographer to be a guest speaker. Nearly all of them are professional photographers. A surprising number still use the same camera as me. Very few have new cameras. While that probably says more about the pay rates of photographers, it also shows that you often don't need the latest and greatest as long as you know how to use your camera properly. In my case, as long as I stay in the 100-400 ISO range (which I do 99% of the time), the images are comparable with all other cameras. And if I venture into higher ISOs, it isn't as though the images are "bad". Shelf life - wouldn't worry about it. As long as a new camera doesn't offer something that you "need", who cares about it?



Well said, sane statement. As I like extreme ISOs at very low light (did so in filmdays as well, had a Contax 139 Quartz and a Carl Zeiss 85 f/1.8 for just that) I am more than happy with the 5D3 I purchased about 11 month ago while upgrading from a 30D which I shot for more than five years. I only shot about 5400 frames to date on the 5D3. But I absolutely like it. It is my perfect allround high ISO tool. Even insanely high ISOs work out quite fine...
ISO 51k (not much difference to original sized RAW file, some decent NR and adjustments in DPP, slightest PS processing)



Z96A5407bTLKlein by Peter Hauri, on Flickr




Z96A5407bTLBWKleindefCrop by Peter Hauri, on Flickr


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 18, 2013)

CarlTN said:


> If you're saying we will see, for example either Adorama, B&H, or Amazon, selling a new 6D body by holidays 2013, for under $1500 US dollars...I will be surprised.


Are you surprised?

http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/10/deal-canon-eos-6d-body-1575-at-bh-photo/

Granted, it's not under US$1500, technically. But you get 4% back, meaning net $1512, and it's a bundle including $145 worth of extras, which could be sold to bring the final net cost down well under $1500.

Oh, and it's not quite to the holidays yet - we're still a few weeks short of Black Friday and Cyber Monday.


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## Marsu42 (Oct 18, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> CarlTN said:
> 
> 
> > I will be surprised.
> ...



Did you set a reminder on your smartphone not to forget to post this for CarlTN  ? Btw I'm sure the 6d will drop even further, the whole build quality and specs are meant for cheaper production - since Canon cannot compete in the aps-c sensor segment, at least they'll have a cheapish ff camera with one af point.


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## unfocused (Oct 18, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> ...since Canon cannot compete in the aps-c sensor segment, at least they'll have a cheapish ff camera with one af point.



I'm guessing that was supposed to be a joke. Amazon best selling DSLRs as of a few minutes ago:
No. 1-2 Canon APS-C Sensor
No. 3 6D
No. 4 5DIII (This is truly incredible, since it's about $2,000-$2,500 more expensive than the typical camera in the top 10)
No. 5-6 Nikon APS-C Sensor
No. 7-9 Canon APS-C Sensor
No. 10 - Nikon APS-C Sensor

So, five of the top 10 are Canon APS-C sensor cameras. I would say they seem to be able to compete pretty well.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 18, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Did you set a reminder on your smartphone not to forget to post this for CarlTN  ?



Just a good memory and the ability to use the forum's search functionality. 



Marsu42 said:


> since Canon cannot compete in the aps-c sensor segment, at least they'll have a cheapish ff camera with one af point.



Define compete. If you're not Mikael or DxOMark, Canon not only competes in the APS-C market, they lead it.


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## Marsu42 (Oct 18, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Define compete.



Compete in the sense that Canon has an aps-c camera with similar aim like the 6d - high iq stills shooting (Canon divides their aps-segment into low-end, video and wildlift/sports). if I'd want to buy an aps-camera for that my current choice wouldn't be Canon - ignoring lenses/flashes, brand attachment and Magic Lantern.

Btw I'm often using Magic Lantern's new dual_iso feature to get over 14 stops dr from the 6D at low iso, I have to admit I'm envious of Nikon that they can do this without any tricks, you can shoot straight into the non-noon sun and still recover the backlit shadows (a little fill flash helps though)... it doesn't need a fanatic to see this is very handy for some :-o


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## Ruined (Oct 18, 2013)

Given the now furious competition in this price bracket I wouldn't be surprised if the 6D was replaced in 2014.


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## Janbo Makimbo (Oct 18, 2013)

Not while it stills sells at the rate it does!


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## Sporgon (Oct 18, 2013)

About the same as the original 5D - people will still be taking great images with it eight years from now


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## pedro (Oct 18, 2013)

brad-man said:


> I would guess that the refresh cycle of most of Canon's non-rebel bodies will be determined more by _when_ they release the new 0.18_um _ process sensors rather than historical timelines. _Presumably_, the first will be released in the 7Dll. I can't imagine that a FF version would be too far behind. Since there have been rumors of some new EOS bodies being released in the near future, who knows which cameras will get the updated sensors first.
> 
> _Disclaimer: Keep in mind that I have no idea of what I'm talking about..._



+1


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## TAF (Oct 19, 2013)

Rams_eos said:


> I was wondering if you could give your opinion on that? ???



While I realize the OP is talking about the marketing lifecycle, I am curious about the real shelf-life of the product.

Since the move to RoHS in electronics, I am seeing more and more devices fail for no apparent reason - some of which have literally just sat on the shelf. So this begs the question: has anyone experienced any hardware failures in older cameras, or worse in more recent ones, that cannot be explained by external issues?

I have a Rollei TLR that is over 80 years old, and it takes marvelous photos. Will my 5D3 still be functional in 10 years, never mind 80?

Thoughts on that?


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## Zv (Oct 19, 2013)

TAF said:


> Rams_eos said:
> 
> 
> > I was wondering if you could give your opinion on that? ???
> ...



Hmmm good point. I wonder as the 6D is more of a budget FF and not quite as robust as other models such as the 7D or 5D class. That was one reason I went with the 5D2. I'd rather have something solid. Recently all the stuff we buy is so poorly made I wonder if it's on purpose. We pay more for crap. What gives? We had a microwave oven that lasted over 15 years. Still worked fine but we "upgraded". The new one lasted about a year and a half. 

And it's not just ovens. Things just seem to fall apart easier. My iPad case is crumbling like a shortbread biscuit in hot tea. I need new earphones every few months. 

However, I've not had any Canon related failures. Even my Yongnuo flash took a fall and survived without a scratch. Can't see a 6D breaking down that easily as even the rebels have a long lifespan. My guess is 10 years at least with moderate use.


----------



## Marsu42 (Oct 19, 2013)

Ruined said:


> Given the now furious competition in this price bracket I wouldn't be surprised if the 6D was replaced in 2014.



I doubt it, because the specs of the 6d aren't targeted at the competition, but at the 5d3. The 6d2 is bound to have a better af system (Canon doesn't have a new sensor, so what else would go into the 6d2?)...

... but combined with some 5d3 price drop and an at first higher priced 6d2 (vs 6d1) this would screw up Canon's carefully engineered product lineup. My bet is 5d4 in q4/2014 or h1/2015, then 6d2 in h2/2015.



Zv said:


> Hmmm good point. I wonder as the 6D is more of a budget FF and not quite as robust as other models such as the 7D or 5D class. That was one reason I went with the 5D2. I'd rather have something solid. Recently all the stuff we buy is so poorly made I wonder if it's on purpose.



Planned Obsolescence is a sad fact of electronics, but with dslrs you don't need to build crappy cameras to sell new ones because everyone will want the latest sensor anyway.

As for 5d2 vs 6d, I wouldn't be so sure, the 5d2 feels more clunky alright but that doesn't mean much - we'll only know about the life span of the 6d shutter and buttons in some years. In the main area of concern "sealing" both 5d2 or 6d are rather mediocre and should be about equal.


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## Sporgon (Oct 19, 2013)

Zv said:


> Hmmm good point. I wonder as the 6D is more of a budget FF and not quite as robust as other models such as the 7D or 5D class. That was one reason I went with the 5D2. I'd rather have something solid.



I just don't understand this 'the 6D is more flimsy than the 5D II' nonsense on the web. I presume it stems from the fact the 6D has a polymer top plate, is smaller, lighter and is 'entry level'. 

I have both and the accusation is nonsense. You just can't tell the difference in the top plate. I would put them both on the same level. In fact it is my guess that the 6D uses a lot of parts from the 5D mkII. They both have a plastic LCD cover as opposed to the toughened glass on the 5DIII and 7D etc etc. The 5D III is definitely a couple of steps up in construction from the II. 

The 6D had had a few 'crippling' features to separate it; no LCD auto brightness for instance, but construction wise - they're the same.


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## Zv (Oct 19, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> Zv said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm good point. I wonder as the 6D is more of a budget FF and not quite as robust as other models such as the 7D or 5D class. That was one reason I went with the 5D2. I'd rather have something solid.
> ...



I dunno, if I were to bash someone over the head with my 5D it would likely come out on top, I just wouldn't feel as confident weilding a 6D! ;D

Also - i never used the word flimsy. I said not as robust. And I wrapped up with .... Would last 10 years. None of that sounds flimsy.


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## Marsu42 (Oct 19, 2013)

Zv said:


> I dunno, if I were to bash someone over the head with my 5D it would likely come out on top



True, also the 1d series or some lenses can be used as a self defense weapon - but what does this mean for normal usage?

Afaik a full metal body isn't less likely to break than a plastic one when dropped, it depends on the circumstance because plastic might bounce where metal might crack (or vice versa if there's a hard edge like a stone on the floor). One decisive difference is the plastic lcd screen, but you can easily fix this with a glass protector which might be a good idea anyway because it's cheap and easy to replace.


----------



## Otara (Oct 19, 2013)

I broke the rear 6D LCD screen with my Ipad which I also broke. Its a cover rather than the actual screen so it still worked fine, just looked ugly.

It was about $100 to fix, for people who worry about doing that often a protector might be worthwhile, for me it was a relief to know if I somehow manage to repeat that level of bad luck/silliness, the cost is relatively minor anyway.


----------



## Marsu42 (Oct 19, 2013)

Otara said:


> It was about $100 to fix [...] the cost is relatively minor anyway.



"relatively"  ... it's 1/15th of the cameras value. Also $100 repair vs ~€3 for a glass protector (from ebay china), well, that made me order it.


----------



## Sporgon (Oct 19, 2013)

Zv said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > Zv said:
> ...



I agree that the 5D would be more suitable for bashing someone over the head, but as I'm not from Scotland I don't see this as normal photographic technique. Also it would really screw up your camera's AF module.

I was using writer's license when using the word 'flimsy', and wasn't referring to your post alone. I think it is the fact that the 5D is larger that makes it feel different too.


----------



## Zv (Oct 19, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> Zv said:
> 
> 
> > Sporgon said:
> ...



;D ;D ;D


----------



## CarlTN (Oct 22, 2013)

The solidity of the 6D is not an issue, it is very rigid and robust. There really is no major issue at all. If you like a camera body to feel heavy, that's fine...I don't...the 6D is more than heavy enough with any L lens on it. The analogy about the head-bashing photo technique does make sense, haha. What's amusing to me with a 5D2 comparison, is the 5D2 cost 50% more over most of its life than the 6D does...yet overall it was a less capable camera (at least for still images). And a 6D replacement, if or when that happens, will likely _still_ sell for less than the 5D2 did for much of its run...yet hopefully have a bit more speed and better AF than the current 6D. But that's perhaps still 2 or 3 years away. I guess what I'm saying is, I see zero valid reason to buy a used 5D2 over a new or used 6D today...other than nostalgia. I barely miss the joystick of my 50D...and the rest of the ergonomics and feel, seem great to me. If you need more speed or features, the 5D3 is the other obvious choice (especially a used one)...not a 5D2. If you need a lot of resolution, then the D800E is just 5 feet behind you on the other side of the aisle. I suspect more of us would try one if the grip wasn't designed for the hands of those cloners on the other side of the Rishi Maze...


----------



## Marsu42 (Oct 22, 2013)

CarlTN said:


> The solidity of the 6D is not an issue, it is very rigid and robust. There really is no major issue at all.



Not putting too fine a point on it: How could you tell? The 6d is not out long enough to evaluate its durability, but the specs cast a doubt on it (short shutter life, no 1/8000 shutter) plus it's only "amateur" cps silver in the EU vs. 5d2/5d3 "platinum" which might mean it's just marketing, but then again it might mean Canon really thinks the 6d will be broken more often.



CarlTN said:


> I guess what I'm saying is, I see zero valid reason to buy a used 5D2 over a new or used 6D today...other than nostalgia.



Joystick is nice if your other camera bodies also have it (that's why I'm happy with my 60d & 6d) ... and for the 5d2 there's longer shutter life, 1/8000s shutter speed, 1/200 x-sync which are important/hard aspects and might make some people decide still for the 5d2.


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## unfocused (Oct 22, 2013)

I pretty much quit worrying about sturdiness after watching that Digital Rev segment where they abuse a Rebel and a similar level Nikon.


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## Sporgon (Oct 22, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Not putting too fine a point on it: How could you tell? The 6d is not out long enough to evaluate its durability, but the specs cast a doubt on it (short shutter life, no 1/8000 shutter) plus it's only "amateur" cps silver in the EU vs. 5d2/5d3 "platinum" which might mean it's just marketing, but then again it might mean Canon really thinks the 6d will be broken more



I noticed this too. The original 5D is 'gold'. The 6D sits in a different marketing position that it's creation created. It wouldn't surprise me if the 6D uses quite a few 5D mkii parts such as the prism, shutter etc and the syncs, max Ss etc are just marketing. Only time will tell on the durability, but I'm quite confident.


----------



## Skirball (Oct 22, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> CarlTN said:
> 
> 
> > The solidity of the 6D is not an issue, it is very rigid and robust. There really is no major issue at all.
> ...



You're right, you can't. But it goes the other way too. People talk a lot of the increased durability of the bigger heavier cameras, but the data is anecdotal at best. Mostly it's based off the assumption that heavier = better. I've heard just as many stories of high end Canon and Nikon cameras falling to pieces when dropped.

Most talk on the internet when it comes to the body makes it sound like the Rebel falls apart if you look at it wrong. I've beat the crap out of mine and it's still clicking. I prefer the feel of my 6D, but I don't have any data to suggest it's going to last longer than the plastic Rebel (given the relatively short lifespan of the technology inside).


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## Marsu42 (Oct 22, 2013)

Skirball said:


> You're right, you can't. But it goes the other way too. People talk a lot of the increased durability of the bigger heavier cameras, but the data is anecdotal at best.



... except for shutter life, there's no doubt more expensive cameras are built to withstand shooting at max. shutter speed, while a landscape/portrait camera like the 6d won't withstand that abuse but is expected to be shot at moderate shutter speeds.

That's probable also the reason why Canon fw disables 1/8000s shutter - you can set it with Magic Lantern (but Canon keeps resetting it) which most likely means Canon considered a 6d with 1/8000s but then decided against it, may it be because of marketing or durability or both.


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## Skirball (Oct 22, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Skirball said:
> 
> 
> > You're right, you can't. But it goes the other way too. People talk a lot of the increased durability of the bigger heavier cameras, but the data is anecdotal at best.
> ...



Yes, agreed. I actually had a "except for shutter life..." in my original post but I pulled it out to keep it shorter. But to me that has more to do with the fact that Canon made a claim on the shutter life, so I would hold Canon to it if it came up short. But even that is just a guideline, I had well over 100k on my 450D before I replaced it, and it’s still shooting just fine.

And I’m not claiming that Rebels are as robust as higher end models, just that the perceived robustness of higher end models may not make a marked difference in the life span in general.


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## Skirball (Oct 22, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> That's probable also the reason why Canon fw disables 1/8000s shutter - you can set it with Magic Lantern (but Canon keeps resetting it) which most likely means Canon considered a 6d with 1/8000s but then decided against it, may it be because of marketing or durability or both.



I didn't realize that was done already.

Not to derail the discussion, but how is the ML with 6D? I poked my nose in a few months ago and it wasn't official yet so I thought I'd wait. I've never used ML, and I don't do video, but I'd probably give it a go for little things like 1/8000 and focus stacking (is that available on 6D?).


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## Zv (Oct 23, 2013)

unfocused said:


> I pretty much quit worrying about sturdiness after watching that Digital Rev segment where they abuse a Rebel and a similar level Nikon.



The one where they try and trash a 7D and at the end it still worked was when I stopped worrying about sturdiness. Haven't seen the rebel one, need to look it up.


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## Marsu42 (Oct 23, 2013)

Skirball said:


> Not to derail the discussion, but how is the ML with 6D? I poked my nose in a few months ago and it wasn't official yet so I thought I'd wait.



Works fine, all features available - but it isn't stable and will crash on you occasionally (= remove battery). 

Since there is only one guy really working on it (and some others submitting a few patches now and then like me) it will be quite a while until it's labeled stable as he's also doing 7d & eosm... so if you don't shoot weddings & want it go for it now - see "new ports" in the ml forum.


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## jm (Oct 24, 2013)

i think give the awsmness of the 70d and crappy auto-focus of the 6d, it has to go. aside from auto-focus, its an amazing camera with great image quality and features.

http://www.johnmckayphotography.com


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## Janbo Makimbo (Oct 25, 2013)

jm said:


> i think give the awsmness of the 70d and crappy auto-focus of the 6d, it has to go. aside from auto-focus, its an amazing camera with great image quality and features.
> 
> http://www.johnmckayphotography.com


think it will outlast the 70D..... which will be overshadowed by the 7D II.


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## CarlTN (Oct 25, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> CarlTN said:
> 
> 
> > The solidity of the 6D is not an issue, it is very rigid and robust. There really is no major issue at all.
> ...



Is there that much difference between 1/180 sec flash sync, and 1/200? The strobe effect of the flash is much faster than the sync, so that is essentially the exposure of light on the subject. There was another thread about flash photogs always shooting in manual mode, to vary the amount of ambient light that fills their flash images...so how much of an issue is 1/20 of a second of flash sync difference going to make? None really.

And the 6D is rated for the same 100,000 shutter cycles as your 60D, so unless you're going to sell your 60D immediately...you're kind of trying to have it both ways here. I believe the 5D2 was rated for 150,000 cycles...not a huge difference, especially when compared to 1 series...and their rumored shutter lives of half a million plus actuations.

I believe you own and use the 6D, do you not? I could be mistaken...but if you do, you definitely should sell it immediately, since it's such an inept camera for you.


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## CarlTN (Oct 25, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Not putting too fine a point on it: How could you tell? The 6d is not out long enough to evaluate its durability, but the specs cast a doubt on it (short shutter life, no 1/8000 shutter) plus it's only "amateur" cps silver in the EU vs. 5d2/5d3 "platinum" which might mean it's just marketing, but then again it might mean Canon really thinks the 6d will be broken more
> ...



+1 !!


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## CarlTN (Oct 25, 2013)

Skirball said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Skirball said:
> ...



Interesting points, and most interesting that you've gotten over 100k cycles on your Rebel. Which Rebel is it again?

Frankly I don't need to shoot 150,000 cycles at 1/8000 of a second, and neither does anyone else in the world for that matter. 1/4000 of a second more than gets the job done. For my pro aerial shots, 1/2500 is fast enough to freeze everything completely...while being shaken up and down as if I'm on the back of a bucking bronco (turbulence in a Cessna going 90+ mph, window open...prop blast occasionally coming in)...and even while zoomed in to 200mm...while managing accurate infinity autofocus to boot.

What is the maximum shutter speed any sports pro uses 95% of the time? I bet it's under 1/4000. Even Formula 1 crash shots are usually under 1/4000...at least the ones I've seen published. Why? Well because they're at F/8 at 600mm or more, and I guess they don't wanna shoot at ISO 12,000+...


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 25, 2013)

CarlTN said:


> Frankly I don't need to shoot 150,000 cycles at 1/8000 of a second, and neither does anyone else in the world for that matter. 1/4000 of a second more than gets the job done.



Good point, I don't think I've ever _needed_ 1/8000 s to stop action when 1/4000 s wouldn't have worked (though I have had times when neither were fast enough, and I needed the ~1/30000 s duration of a Speedlite at 1/128 power). But, it's not only about stopping action - I've used 1/8000 many times. The extra stop is useful when shooting outdoor portraits with a fast prime, if you don't have an ND filter handy, want a strong background blur, and don't want blown highlights.


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## CarlTN (Oct 25, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> CarlTN said:
> 
> 
> > Frankly I don't need to shoot 150,000 cycles at 1/8000 of a second, and neither does anyone else in the world for that matter. 1/4000 of a second more than gets the job done.
> ...



True...but an ND filter costs a lot less than $1200, if you need to shoot f/1.2 in bright sunlight. Of course you can always pay a lot for the convenience of not having to take the filter out of the bag and screw it on. It just depends on how much luxury you're willing to buy to get the job done. Those of us who would prefer to make a profit from photography, would have a hard time doing so if we spent a fortune up front, though.

I've used 1/8000 of a second too with other bodies, but it was about .005% of the time. 1/6400 and 1/5000/second was more like .008% of the time. Not exactly a necessity. The better 61 point AF is radically more useful than going from 1/4000 to 1/8000 of a second...or going from 1/180 sync to 1/200...or an extra 50k shutter cycles 5 years from now (pretty sure I will have sold my own 6D before it even hits 30 or 40k cycles...let alone 100k...my 50D only had 25k cycles in 4 years. It also had a flash sync specified at 1/250 second, so I guess it was better than a 5D3 in that regard).

I hope you've racked up the cycles on your 1DX like you rack up posts in this forum...how many cycles you got on the 1DX now? 30k? That's my guess anyway. I just rolled over 10k on my 6D...I think. I need to check and see how many my cousin has on his 1DX. I bet it's only like 4000, if that.


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## Marsu42 (Oct 25, 2013)

CarlTN said:


> True...but an ND filter costs a lot less than $1200, if you need to shoot f/1.2 in bright sunlight.



The situation where the lack of 1/8000 hurts is bracketing in bright light, for example if you've got the evening sun in the picture... and you can't use an nd filter here, because you also want to have the shadows in one bracket.



CarlTN said:


> or going from 1/180 sync to 1/200...



My main issue with the slow x-sync is not the difference to 1/200s, but that you have to set 1/2ev exposure level increments to get it (or it's 1/160s) - but that *also* means you can only set 1/2ev flash ec steps, which are far too large steps for ettl metering :-(

I didn't succeed yet to force 1/180s on the 6d in 1/3ev more through Magic Lantern because the canon fw forces it to 1/2ev steps... the only way to combine max. x-sync with the smaller steps is in Av mode with a fixed 1/180s shutter speed (in the flash menu).



CarlTN said:


> or an extra 50k shutter cycles 5 years from now (pretty sure I will have sold my own 6D before it even hits 30 or 40k cycles...let alone 100k...my 50D only had 25k cycles in 4 years.



Oh my, I'm at nearly 10k after one month (I shoot a lot of fluffy things that move around), I really hope the 6d shutter is sturdier than what the spec indicates, my 100k rated 60d is still fine @150k cycles :-o


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## CarlTN (Oct 25, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> CarlTN said:
> 
> 
> > True...but an ND filter costs a lot less than $1200, if you need to shoot f/1.2 in bright sunlight.
> ...



Thanks for setting me straight, certainly HDR exposure in that situation would be helped by 1/8000/sec...but I think I could get by without it anyway...perhaps with an ND filter that is weaker (to be able to bracket for the shadows as well...or else remove it). I don't do much HDR, and none directly into sun that is not shrouded by cloud...if that is what you're referring to. Those images have a trite look to them, to me. And clear skies can be boring.

10k in one month is kind of high. You sure you've only had the 6D for a month? Could have sworn you were talking about your 6D like back in June or whenever it was. You should use more than one body (or perhaps you already do have more than one 6D). 10k on the 6D in a month, which only fires at 4.5 fps...you're working it a lot aren't you? What are you shooting?

Are you implying you honestly think the 6D's shutter could be less robust than the 60D's? (Since it is apparently exceeding its rated life for you already?) I guess _it's possible that it could be of lesser quality than the 60D's_, time will tell. I would bet big that it is not lesser quality, or less durable. Still, I won't be keeping mine to 100k cycles. Perhaps 50k if I go really nuts, but not more than that...assuming I don't lose track of the count before then.


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## pensive tomato (Oct 25, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> My main issue with the slow x-sync is not the difference to 1/200s, but that you have to set 1/2ev exposure level increments to get it (or it's 1/160s) - but that *also* means you can only set 1/2ev flash ec steps, which are far too large steps for ettl metering :-(
> 
> I didn't succeed yet to force 1/180s on the 6d in 1/3ev more through Magic Lantern because the canon fw forces it to 1/2ev steps... the only way to combine max. x-sync with the smaller steps is in Av mode with a fixed 1/180s shutter speed (in the flash menu).



I'm curious about what you're describing here. I have my 6D set to 1/3-stop increments. Shooting in M with a speedlite, I can adjust my shutter speed and aperture in thirds up to 1/180 s (of course, no HSS involved). So it goes from 1/160-s to 1/180-s, in a 1/6-stop increment, but otherwise it's 1/3 of a stop, as in from 1/125-s to 1/160-s. I use E-TTL, and I can also keep doing 1/3-stop FEC adjustments without a problem.

Am I missing your point here? Basically I don't understand what you mean about being forced to work on 1/2 increments (which I agree it's limiting).

I'm not commenting on the shelf life of the 6D. For my use as a hobbyist, I hope that I'll be replacing the camera before it dies. I'm honestly curious to know what is the limitation you're pointing out.


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## Marsu42 (Oct 25, 2013)

pensive tomato said:


> Am I missing your point here?



No, you're not missing my point here, but I have always set my speedlite to HSS - and then 1/180s is not available with C.Fn I-1 set to 1/3ev ... *but* you're correct, if you set the speedlite to non-HSS or 2nd curtain the camera indeed goes 1/160s -> 1/180s, I admit I never noticed this.

Unfortunately this means to go from 1/180s to a higher shutter speed you not only have to dial, but have to press the sync button on the speedlite ... but still better than switching the C.Fn I guess :-o so thanks for the hint!


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## CarlTN (Oct 25, 2013)

pensive tomato said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > My main issue with the slow x-sync is not the difference to 1/200s, but that you have to set 1/2ev exposure level increments to get it (or it's 1/160s) - but that *also* means you can only set 1/2ev flash ec steps, which are far too large steps for ettl metering :-(
> ...



Thanks for pointing this out. Which speedlite do you use? I would like to buy a cheap one that can still do everything. Do you have thoughts on the Yongnuo 568?


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## pensive tomato (Oct 25, 2013)

CarlTN said:


> Which speedlite do you use? I would like to buy a cheap one that can still do everything. Do you have thoughts on the Yongnuo 568?



I use the Canon RT system which works great and it's very flexible. One limitation is the cost, although rebates and refurbished units can make them easier on the wallet. There are cheaper options (the Yongnuo units included), but I don't have experience with them. Plenty of people around here at CR can give you feedback about their reliability and features.


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## CarlTN (Oct 26, 2013)

pensive tomato said:


> CarlTN said:
> 
> 
> > Which speedlite do you use? I would like to buy a cheap one that can still do everything. Do you have thoughts on the Yongnuo 568?
> ...



I've read some of it, and thank you for getting back to me. I can always borrow a Canon 580 from my cousin, but would be nice to have my own.


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