# anyone else notice that a new rebel has yet to be announced?



## wsmith96 (Jul 15, 2014)

I find it odd that we have not seen our annual update to the rebel line up. Anyone hear of anything? I thought it would have be an announced by now. I guess there's a lot of work going on regarding DPAF to get it right.

Just an observation.


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## moreorless (Jul 15, 2014)

Maybe the delays in getting large amounts of the 70D sensor made? maybe a decision to leave putting that sensor into a rebel for another year?


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## Jim Saunders (Jul 15, 2014)

Two questions:

What can Canon put into a T6i to make it interesting?

What can another brand put into theirs to make Canon envious?

At the moment I can't think of anything to answer either of those questions. Anyone?

Jim


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## Viggo (Jul 15, 2014)

That's what I was thinking, I don't see what you can't to with the current that you can with the next, then it's time to move up to a 70d or other. Seems canon can only make it in white to make it interesting.


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## tron (Jul 15, 2014)

Jim Saunders said:


> Two questions:
> What can Canon put into a T6i to make it interesting?


Only a better sensor, oups : They will put it first into more expensive cameras


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## AcutancePhotography (Jul 15, 2014)

Jim Saunders said:


> What can Canon put into a T6i to make it interesting?



Integrate a cell phone into it. 

We already have cell phones that can take pictures. Perhaps the market is ripe for a camera that can make cell calls? ;D


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 15, 2014)

Jim Saunders said:


> What can Canon put into a T6i to make it interesting?
> 
> ...
> 
> At the moment I can't think of anything to answer either of those questions. Anyone?



Plenty. They can put the 1Dx AF unit in. They can bring back CF. They can make an APS-C version of their 120MP APC-H sensor. Etc.

There is quite a lot they CAN put in it. The better question is what WILL they put in it, and history suggests that if there are any improvements beyond a higher model number, they'll be marginal. DPAF seems likely.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 15, 2014)

Its just another sign of tight corporate budgets due to slowing camera sales. Rebadging a old design and adding minor upgrades every year is expensive, in terms of changing all the advertising, literature, software, stocking warehouses, discounting the previous model, etc. 


Look for longer intervals between models. Canon seems to be very good at squeezing every possible dollar out of a design, so they do well when everyone else is struggling. From a business standpoint, that's smart. 


I'd rather only see new models when something significant is changing. I expect that the 70D technology, or other new sensor technology will trickle down eventually. You are not going to see the high end features go into a base model. Eventually, they will appear, but it will take a lot of time.


I can remember when a heater was optional in a new car, and forget about air conditioning or radio, or many features like power steering that are now pretty much standard.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jul 15, 2014)

3kramd5 said:


> Jim Saunders said:
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> > What can Canon put into a T6i to make it interesting?
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1dx AF?....that will never be in a rebel

CF, doubtful as the market trend is SD for the low end

120MB sensor???? are you smoking something????

The rebel is never going to have anything crazy like that. and a dev announcement???? I really doubt we'll see that as there is little to no dev going into it ---it's a rehash of the old which is what happens on a product that gets refreshed yearly. With new FF bodies on the horizon and the 7d's replacement, they have plenty to talk about. Rebel releases will only get hype in a year that offers no other significant model updates.


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## Viggo (Jul 15, 2014)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> 3kramd5 said:
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Think you missed the point man, he said they COULD put anything in from the awesome tech they already have, including the 120mp (not mb like you wrote) aps-h sensor, which is real btw. But they don't put that in becasue obvious reasons.


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## jdramirez (Jul 15, 2014)

Jim Saunders said:


> Two questions:
> 
> What can Canon put into a T6i to make it interesting?
> 
> ...



For the soccer mom sect... connect via Bluetooth, post directly to Facebook from the camera via the mobile phone...


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## jdramirez (Jul 15, 2014)

Oh... and stream images over a network to a smart tv... like my phone does.


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## McSpike (Jul 15, 2014)

What about GPS and/or wi-fi?
I know that currently, only the 6d offers both, and the 70d has wi-fi, but those might be features that would attract entry-level buyers.

Smaller/lighter always are selling points as well. The SL1 (err, 100d in other parts of the world) seems to be attracting attention, and isn't all that old, so maybe that is the new direction for Rebels? Maybe Canon will try to push upgraders from the new 1xx series into the x0 series instead of the xxx series?


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## cosmopotter (Jul 15, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> Jim Saunders said:
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> > Two questions:
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I think this is the closest to the point for the Rebel line. It is an entry level line used for beginners and converts who want to take better pictures than their smart phone or point and shoot. That being the case, Canon should hire a software designer from Apple or Samsung to make a better touch screen interface. better EOS Remote App and generally improve usability and connectivity. Why not use the GPS function of your phone to geotag photos? The WiFi capability of my 70D is okay, but could be greatly improved.


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## dgatwood (Jul 15, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Its just another sign of tight corporate budgets due to slowing camera sales. Rebadging a old design and adding minor upgrades every year is expensive, in terms of changing all the advertising, literature, software, stocking warehouses, discounting the previous model, etc.
> 
> 
> Look for longer intervals between models. Canon seems to be very good at squeezing every possible dollar out of a design, so they do well when everyone else is struggling. From a business standpoint, that's smart.



Actually, it isn't smart. The reason the DSLR market is slowing is that the market is saturated, and new hardware isn't enough better than the existing hardware to warrant an upgrade even after several minor updates. Consumers don't buy minor bumps, generally speaking. They buy every major rev or every second major rev. That means that DSLR sales are going to tank unless they release at least one major improvement, and maybe two.

You're right that Canon releases too many minor bumps, but to be fair, they mostly do that at the low end (consumer goods) because yearly updates are what that market demands. I'm not sure they can help it. The real problem is not the number of bumps, but rather the perceived lack of innovation and improvement in each bump. If you don't make it enough better to drive the upgrade cycle, your sales begin tonslump, and people start making foolish comments about smartphones eating into the DSLR market....

So what can Canon do? Well, if they can't make big improvements in sensors, why not innovate in their user interface? Right now, at least on the 6D, Canon's menu system feels like it has been patched too many times, and it no longer holds together logically. Their GPS behavior is a bit glitchy.

Their Wi-Fi UI is a disaster and a half. It is tied, among other things, to the rather baffling notion that users either use it standalone or on an infrastructure network, but never change from one to the other. Its ability to set passwords doesn't seem to work, and it chooses a new random password for its network each time you set it up standalone, which makes it very hard to use with multiple devices.

And the lock switch should be more flexible. If I were designing a camera purely for my use, I would lock the WB to auto and lock the image size so that they can't be changed without going into a menu and unlocking them. I would make the lock switch prevent exposure compensation in the auto modes, but not prevent aperture adjustment in manual mode. But that's just my personal preference. Users should be able to customize that behavior, locking various settings either semi-permanently or based on the lock switch.

I'd also try to make it easier to choose whether maximum ISO or minimum shutter speed should have priority when the camera can't respect both.

That's just off the top of my head.


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## ecka (Jul 15, 2014)

Rebel T5 doesn't count? Why?


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 15, 2014)

Viggo said:


> Chuck Alaimo said:
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Exactly. The open ended question in the OP was "What can Canon put into a T6i to make it interesting?" They can put any tech they're capable of producing into the T6i. They won't, but they can.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jul 15, 2014)

Viggo said:


> Chuck Alaimo said:
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I was just injecting that this is a really really really far off COULD to the point that it's just not feasible! They could put english muffins and a colony of ants in there too. 1dx AF system in a rebel just ain't happening. 120MP's is just as unlikely. More reasonable GPS, Wi-fi, more x-points, touchscreen, better phone to camera interface, these are things that are more likely to happen. 

and I know there is that prototype 120Mp sensor, but unless your a millionaire that won't be anywhere near consumer tech. 

Now reasonable is 1 MP per upgrade is proabably a bit more reasonable.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 15, 2014)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> Now reasonable is 1 MP per upgrade is proabably a bit more reasonable.



Sure, a 1MP upgrade is more reasonable/realistic, but it certainly isn't interesting


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## wsmith96 (Jul 15, 2014)

ecka said:


> Rebel T5 doesn't count? Why?



Good Point - I completely forgot about this camera. Was expecting a Rebel T(x)i.


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## sdsr (Jul 15, 2014)

Jim Saunders said:


> Two questions:
> 
> What can Canon put into a T6i to make it interesting?
> 
> ...



Making it interesting to those who read this forum and making it something that consumers are going to want to buy are probably rather different things. I have no clue about the latter. To interest me it would have to be something like the Sony a6000 but with IBIS added, and that surely won't happen. As for Canon being envious, they may be noticing the slight uptick in mirrorless sales in recent months, but otherwise they seem to be doing rather well as it is (even if some might think they don't deserve to).


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## jdramirez (Jul 15, 2014)

Interesting... such a vague term. 

Back in my Canon xs days, I like the 60d over the t3i because of the auto focus points and the fps. 

That was interesting to me. 

What would Canon have to do to improve the t5i so someone in my similar position, a t3i or t3 owner, would be interested? We know it can't be better than the 70d. It can't be worse than the t5i.

How about this. Wi-Fi plus video out to your cell phone with wireless triggering and pinch and zoom focus capabilities. Zoom in using live view, control auto focus over your phone, take the shot and it auto shares to Facebook. 

While we are at it... built in rf control over the 450ex-rt (guessing this will come out). Built in swivel bounce off the flash... just up and behind, but it would be better than head on. 

You stay with sd... but also have a usb input to flash drive to copy.

Also have digital zoom that saves the original image and the in camera crop. Obviously a live mode function. 

Auto saves to the stupid Canon cloud.


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## Hannes (Jul 15, 2014)

I think canon have done the very sensible thing of updating their kit lens line up instead of the cameras. The new STM lenses are much nicer to use than the old kit lenses. Comparing the new kit lens to the old will make people want the newer lens, just getting rid of that old horrible focussing motor makes a massive difference. Also bearing in mind that most rebel user won't stray far from the kit 18-55 or possibly to the 55-250 the new lenses are going to be massively important for the appeal of the newer models despite the lack of updates. 

What they should have done I think though it to have introduced a new 20-22 mpix sensor for the rebels to replace the ageing 18mpix as it would make the average consumer see the new sensor as an update. I'm pretty sure the 70D sensor will find its way into the 750D as it has always done in the past but it strikes me as being a little late but at least they have sensibly upgraded the 1200D to the 18mpix sensor instead of the now ancient 12mpix one. Nikon really beat them to it when it came to the entry level segment and I think Canon lost a lot of sales because of it.

As boring as these rebels are to us, these are what drives canon. I doubt there is any way Canon could survive on their single digit cameras, they need to bottom end to cover costs.


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## ScottyP (Jul 21, 2014)

You'd think they'd put AFMA in it. It counts as a good user feature but really it also helps Canon increase user satisfaction by letting owners fix any minor manufacturing boo boos themselves. 

Why wouldn't they do that? Otherwise most people with slightly out of whack lenses or bodies just suffer with it and tell people their Canon just wasn't very sharp. Maybe they buy a Pentax next time. 

Then others have to deal with the hassle of sending their body and one favorite lens off for adjustment at Canon which is no fun for either the owner or for Canon, and it is all avoidable if they'd just include AFMA.

If the ketchup companies are smart enough to add "shake well before serving" to their labels, so that the user is more likely to have a positive experience with their condiments, why would a camera maker leave out AFMA?


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## dgatwood (Jul 21, 2014)

ecka said:


> Rebel T5 doesn't count? Why?



IMO, Canon hasn't actually updated the Rebel line since 2012. The T5 doesn't count, because it's basically just a cost-reduced T5i, which in turn is just a T4i with a few firmware changes and a couple of tiny mechanical tweaks (most of which were probably just cost reductions).


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## jdramirez (Jul 22, 2014)

ScottyP said:


> You'd think they'd put AFMA in it. It counts as a good user feature but really it also helps Canon increase user satisfaction by letting owners fix any minor manufacturing boo boos themselves.
> 
> Why wouldn't they do that? Otherwise most people with slightly out of whack lenses or bodies just suffer with it and tell people their Canon just wasn't very sharp. Maybe they buy a Pentax next time.
> 
> ...



I think 80% of Canon rebel users primarily use the 18-55mm, a 75-300mm, a 55-250mm, and then the 50mm f/1.8.

So the max aperture range is 3.5 to 5.6 for the first three lenses... and the 50mm is really quite soft from f/1.8 to f/2.8ish... So you will tend to stop down the 50... 

Would yall say that rebel owners who have a good f/1.4 (or a 100L which has a really shallow depth of field) lens is probably around 10%. Maybe a 35L, the 100L, a 50L, etc. 

I'd think 90% of the rebel market don't have a need for it... and probably another 5% wouldn't use it. I would want AFMA, but I suppose I'd be ok with afma being @ the X0D or higher.


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## wsmith96 (Jul 22, 2014)

ScottyP said:


> You'd think they'd put AFMA in it. It counts as a good user feature but really it also helps Canon increase user satisfaction by letting owners fix any minor manufacturing boo boos themselves.
> 
> Why wouldn't they do that? Otherwise most people with slightly out of whack lenses or bodies just suffer with it and tell people their Canon just wasn't very sharp. Maybe they buy a Pentax next time.
> 
> ...



If I were canon, the thought of allowing afma to the mass population of ma and pa photographers would be terrifying to me and my call centers. Afma is a great tool for those who know how to use it, but any increase in my call center activity would reduce my profit margin on the rebel line. Enthusiasts, sure offer this option to allow them to grow with their camera. Most who can afford a single digit model probably have an idea of what they are doing. Mainstream usually has no clue what they are doing, but they don't know it. All they know is that if they screw it up, it would be canon's fault for making such crappy gear and social media would spread that word.


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## ecka (Jul 22, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> ecka said:
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IMO, for now, Rebel SL1 is the best choice  and if I'd want something better I would aim for 70D.


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## dgatwood (Jul 22, 2014)

wsmith96 said:


> ScottyP said:
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> > You'd think they'd put AFMA in it. It counts as a good user feature but really it also helps Canon increase user satisfaction by letting owners fix any minor manufacturing boo boos themselves.
> ...



Just bury it deep in the custom functions menu so the newbies won't discover it accidentally. Better yet, make it mindless. Have the camera remember each lens it sees, and when it detects a new one, ask the user to set the lens to each end of its zoom range and point it at something close and far away. Then have the camera calculate the AFMA values by computing the difference between the AF-sensor-computed OOF amount and the DPAF-computed OOF amount several times in rapid succession.


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## henrywang (Jul 22, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> ecka said:
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> > Rebel T5 doesn't count? Why?
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As I saw it, the T5 to me was just a repackaged T2i because of the lack of flip out screen :-\
I was pretty shocked when they actually dared to release something like that...


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jul 22, 2014)

wsmith96 said:


> ScottyP said:
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> > You'd think they'd put AFMA in it. It counts as a good user feature but really it also helps Canon increase user satisfaction by letting owners fix any minor manufacturing boo boos themselves.
> ...



Utter nonsense.

If anything, it might reduce calls, since it is VERY common that lens and body are not matched and at least this might allow a few to get things matched. And it's just NOT rocket science, it's ridiculous how fearful everyone has become of any with a hint of tech over the last couple decades, everything has been dumbed down and then dumbed down some more.

And if someone is not capable of resetting to zero, if they mess it up, then they are not capable of using a DSLR in the first place. I mean how hard is it to simply hit reset or place MFA back to 0? If you can turn the knob to +3 or -3 you can also turn it back to 0.


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## wsmith96 (Jul 22, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> wsmith96 said:
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I utter nonsense your utter nonsense. You would be surprised that what you and I would take for granted would cause chaos for others. I understand that you are proficient with your equipment, and that's fine. I also agree with you that more and more equipment, no matter what it is, appears to have training wheels attached to it. There is a reason for this which was explained in my previous post. 

Let me approach it from a different perspective to explain my point. If my parents wanted a new PC, there is no way I would ever let them have a machine with Linux on it. EVER! If they are somewhat proficient, then Windows is fine. If they had no clue what they were doing, then I would buy them a Mac. Btw, I'm not ragging on macs - they just happen to be the easiest computers to work on.


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## wsmith96 (Jul 22, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> wsmith96 said:
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Sounds like you should talk to Canon. I believe that would be an awesome use of automation.


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## AcutancePhotography (Jul 23, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> If anything, it might reduce calls, since it is VERY common that lens and body are not matched and at least this might allow a few to get things matched. And it's just NOT rocket science, it's ridiculous how fearful everyone has become of any with a hint of tech over the last couple decades, everything has been dumbed down and then dumbed down some more.
> 
> And if someone is not capable of resetting to zero, if they mess it up, then they are not capable of using a DSLR in the first place. I mean how hard is it to simply hit reset or place MFA back to 0? If you can turn the knob to +3 or -3 you can also turn it back to 0.



From this, can I presume that you have never worked product techsupport with the general public? ;D You would be surprised at what confuses the "average" customer when it comes to changing settings on a technologically advanced product. 

I think that AFMA is the last thing that the average camera user needs. Even so called experienced photographers have problems with (as evidenced by the threads on many of the forums)

No one ever got into trouble by underestimating the capabilities of the average person. ;D ;D


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## Antono Refa (Jul 23, 2014)

3kramd5 said:


> They can make an APS-C version of their 120MP APC-H sensor. Etc.



That would make for a 66MP sensor. Does any of Canon's lenses have the resolving power to match that?


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## jdramirez (Jul 23, 2014)

Antono Refa said:


> 3kramd5 said:
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> > They can make an APS-C version of their 120MP APC-H sensor. Etc.
> ...




Depends on who is buying... some people have more money than sense.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jul 23, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> wsmith96 said:
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food for thought from another topic ---http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=21908.msg417183;topicseen#new --- only 5% of the buying public buys more than 1 lens apparently. That leaves 95% with a kit lens. What to venture a bet as to what percentage of that 95% never even take a peek at their manual? What percentage of that 95% even knows what an AF point is? LOL....that is why AFMA won't be in a rebel! How many users are in P mode would end up messing with their AFMA because they have blurry shots - because they don't know their shooting at a slow SS? Or because the AF is locking on to other things (all point active!!!). I would love to have more faith in humanity that this wouldn't happen, but, time and time again I get questions from the first time DSLR user and yup, theynever even opened the manual, hell they don't know where it is and ----yeah they look at me like I'm Satan for asking....I paid $$$$ for this and it should just work. UGGGGGG....no no no no no....AFMA just has no place in the rebel line....


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## crashpc (Jul 23, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> Antono Refa said:
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Well, at least it´s nearly free on sensor side. You´ll have the image resolution up to lens resolution EVERY TIME, which is good approach. But there is still not processing power and bandwith to shoot 66MP at lovely 10+FPS and transfer it on the SD card. Then Postprocessing will be longer. I wouldn´t care, but I´m not alone on this planet....
I hope for something like 22+Mpx full color sensor. It would possibly add more resolution than "current" 32Mpx bayer sensors...


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## Don Haines (Jul 23, 2014)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
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and most of those people shoot in "green box" mode.... do you really want them to be doing a complex and precise calibration sequence on a tool that they do not know how to use? AFMA is hard for advanced users to get right....


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## brianftpc (Jul 24, 2014)

Take a 7D and call it a 6Ti. its enough of an upgrade to the 5Ti to make sense to buy at the Ti series price point and lacks features included in the 70D to keep it from cannibalizing it


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## dgatwood (Jul 24, 2014)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> food for thought from another topic ---http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=21908.msg417183;topicseen#new --- only 5% of the buying public buys more than 1 lens apparently. That leaves 95% with a kit lens. What to venture a bet as to what percentage of that 95% never even take a peek at their manual? What percentage of that 95% even knows what an AF point is? LOL....that is why AFMA won't be in a rebel! How many users are in P mode would end up messing with their AFMA because they have blurry shots - because they don't know their shooting at a slow SS? Or because the AF is locking on to other things (all point active!!!). I would love to have more faith in humanity that this wouldn't happen, but, time and time again I get questions from the first time DSLR user and yup, theynever even opened the manual, hell they don't know where it is and ----yeah they look at me like I'm Satan for asking....I paid $$$$ for this and it should just work. UGGGGGG....no no no no no....AFMA just has no place in the rebel line....



Actually, I'd go the opposite direction. The Rebel bodies should have their kit lenses pre-AFMAed as part of the initial burn-in and packing process. That way, non-advanced users won't ever even have to think about it.





Don Haines said:


> and most of those people shoot in "green box" mode.... do you really want them to be doing a complex and precise calibration sequence on a tool that they do not know how to use? AFMA is hard for advanced users to get right....



Only because Canon didn't bother designing an AFMA UI that makes sense for non-advanced users. There's nothing even slightly complex about AFMA in principle. The UI just sucks harder than a Hoover. 

Instead, the camera should just provide a one-button-press option to recalibrate the currently attached lens, and should hide the AFMA values from the user entirely. I would envision something like this:



Would you like to calibrate this lens?


[YES] [NO] [DON'T ASK ME AGAIN]



Please set the zoom to its widest setting.


[Waiting]/[OK]



Please put the camera on a tripod and aim it at something more than 50 feet away.

[Too Close]/[OK]




I'm having trouble. Please make sure the camera is on a tripod, aim it at something far away, then press OK.

[Too Close]/[OK]



No, seriously, you [expletive] dolt, put it on a tripod.

[OK]



Calibrating.

(At this point, it flips the mirror up and down repeatedly, focusing in alternation between live view and normal mode. Periodically, it kicks the focus way out and repeats this process. Then, after about twenty flips, it continues.)



Please aim the camera at something about 5 feet away, then press OK.

[Camera goes into servo focus mode.]

[Too Close]/[Too Far]/[OK]



Calibrating.

(At this point, it flips the mirror up and down repeatedly, focusing in alternation between live view and normal mode. Periodically, it kicks the focus way out and repeats this process. Then, after about twenty flips, it continues.)



Please set the zoom to its narrowest setting.

[Waiting]/[OK]



Repeat these screens:

Please point the camera at something more than 50 feet away, then press OK.
Calibrating.
Please point the camera at something about 5 feet away, then press OK.
Calibrating.



Done calibrating.


[OK]



That's the sort of UI that you need when designing a feature like this for end users. From there, you calculate the mean AFMA value and the standard deviation. Then, throw away any outliers, and recompute the mean. If the standard deviation is too high or there are too many outliers, display the "make sure the camera is on a tripod" screen. Otherwise, use the resulting mean (with outliers removed) as the AFMA setting.


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## kphoto99 (Jul 24, 2014)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> UGGGGGG....no no no no no....AFMA just has no place in the rebel line....



But including WB shift/bracketing does? How many non Rebel photographers use that?

If AFMA is simply called AFMA in the menus, nobody would use it on a Rebel unless they read about it first. It is not exactly a common acronym.


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## StudentOfLight (Jul 27, 2014)

AFMA is more critical with faster lenses and larger sensors which would drive DoF down for a given subject-framing so if the function is missing on entry level cameras it's not a catastrophic issue, after all they are all APS-C.

Maybe WB-Shift & bracketing just happens to form part of the standard function-set used for all the Canon DSLRs. One of the Magic Lantern guys might be able to elaborate.


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## Antono Refa (Jul 28, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> Antono Refa said:
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Yes, a richer person could buy better lenses, but that doesn't answer the question of whether any of those better lenses could resolve 66MP (or even 44MP) on an APS-C sensor.


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## crashpc (Jul 28, 2014)

Of course it will not resolve full 44Mpx. But I´m pretty sure it will resolve significantly more, that way it is worth.


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## slclick (Jul 29, 2014)

The Canon body tech spec gaps are closing in and there needs to be a lineup refresh. The 6D, 50D to 60D gaff and the proposed 7D2 specs all muddied the waters and when you see other industries doing such a thing it leads to consumer confusion. Well, not for us smart kids in the CRF.


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## wsmith96 (Jul 30, 2014)

I guess other than wireless networking and more video features, I'm not sure what else they can put into this line of cameras. Maybe more local help files/videos.... who knows. Maybe a pop up flash that doubles as a bottle opener.


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## AcutancePhotography (Jul 31, 2014)

wsmith96 said:


> I guess other than wireless networking and more video features, I'm not sure what else they can put into this line of cameras. Maybe more local help files/videos.... who knows. Maybe a pop up flash that doubles as a bottle opener.



A texting function on the LCD so you can text and send your "friends" pictures. It is only a matter of time before someone makes a camera that has a phone built in to it. ;D


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## scyrene (Aug 6, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> Chuck Alaimo said:
> 
> 
> > food for thought from another topic ---http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=21908.msg417183;topicseen#new --- only 5% of the buying public buys more than 1 lens apparently. That leaves 95% with a kit lens. What to venture a bet as to what percentage of that 95% never even take a peek at their manual? What percentage of that 95% even knows what an AF point is? LOL....that is why AFMA won't be in a rebel! How many users are in P mode would end up messing with their AFMA because they have blurry shots - because they don't know their shooting at a slow SS? Or because the AF is locking on to other things (all point active!!!). I would love to have more faith in humanity that this wouldn't happen, but, time and time again I get questions from the first time DSLR user and yup, theynever even opened the manual, hell they don't know where it is and ----yeah they look at me like I'm Satan for asking....I paid $$$$ for this and it should just work. UGGGGGG....no no no no no....AFMA just has no place in the rebel line....
> ...



I'd be interested to know what percentage of people have a tripod. Surely a minority, especially at the low end. I'd like AFMA to be more automated, but I don't think it would be a feature most people would use.


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## dgatwood (Aug 6, 2014)

scyrene said:


> dgatwood said:
> 
> 
> > Please put the camera on a tripod and aim it at something more than 50 feet away.
> ...



"Please put the camera on a tripod or sturdy table and..." would work just fine. It doesn't have to be a tripod per se; it just has to be completely stationary, and pointed at something that's also completely stationary. 

I suspect that if it were automated, most folks would use it, particularly if it immediately asks you if you want to calibrate a new lens whenever you first attach it. Mind you, most people would use it exactly once per lens, but that's usually all it takes, so....


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## scyrene (Aug 6, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > dgatwood said:
> ...



Haha fine. I have to say though, I've only felt the need to do it a couple of times - most lenses focus accurately enough for me. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I'm less fussy (I'm going with the former).


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## Antono Refa (Aug 6, 2014)

crashpc said:


> Of course it will not resolve full 44Mpx. But I´m pretty sure it will resolve significantly more, that way it is worth.



Which is why Canon wouldn't do it - it would not only take sensor resolution out of the numbers race until the next generation of lenses comes out in a decade. That is not good for Canon's bottom line.


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## jeffa4444 (Aug 6, 2014)

In the end of the day we want sharp, naturally saturated as possible photographs. Why are smartphones taking over? partially because they are simple to use not stuffed full of menus Canon & Nikon et al. need to go back to basics with a DSLR at the entry level. Yes have programmed & then just manual leave everything else out, minimise the buttons and major on composition, lighting etc. 

In the middle add more features for serious amateurs and then finally an all singing all dancing professional camera. Job done. Think AT-1 / AE-1, A-1 & F1 and drop APS-C then its simply EF lenses. Everything else is a complication.


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## jdramirez (Aug 6, 2014)

jeffa4444 said:


> In the end of the day we want sharp, naturally saturated as possible photographs. Why are smartphones taking over? partially because they are simple to use not stuffed full of menus Canon & Nikon et al. need to go back to basics with a DSLR at the entry level. Yes have programmed & then just manual leave everything else out, minimise the buttons and major on composition, lighting etc.
> 
> In the middle add more features for serious amateurs and then finally an all singing all dancing professional camera. Job done. Think AT-1 / AE-1, A-1 & F1 and drop APS-C then its simply EF lenses. Everything else is a complication.



I think people think they are going to get better... so they want the bells and whistles there... how often have we heard... I didn't know my camera could do that... so... yeah. Oh and my second point is that people never do get really proficient... so they don't have to be there.. but as a consumer you want to know they are stuffed to the gills because they think they will take the time to learn...


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## iron-t (Aug 6, 2014)

Mark my words: the next Rebel will feature an 8-12 mp rear-facing camera for taking selfies while taking portraits of others. "This is what I look like when I'm taking photos!"

There appears to be no cute shorthand or portmanteau for "photos one has taken of another person." Othersies? Someday we will have to have a word for it.


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## jdramirez (Aug 6, 2014)

iron-t said:


> Mark my words: the next Rebel will feature an 8-12 mp rear-facing camera for taking selfies while taking portraits of others. "This is what I look like when I'm taking photos!"
> 
> There appears to be no cute shorthand or portmanteau for "photos one has taken of another person." Othersies? Someday we will have to have a word for it.



We kinda do it now... with our thread... photos of other photographes.


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## scyrene (Aug 6, 2014)

jeffa4444 said:


> In the end of the day we want sharp, naturally saturated as possible photographs. Why are smartphones taking over? partially because they are simple to use not stuffed full of menus Canon & Nikon et al. need to go back to basics with a DSLR at the entry level. Yes have programmed & then just manual leave everything else out, minimise the buttons and major on composition, lighting etc.
> 
> In the middle add more features for serious amateurs and then finally an all singing all dancing professional camera. Job done. Think AT-1 / AE-1, A-1 & F1 and drop APS-C then its simply EF lenses. Everything else is a complication.



I don't agree. Depends what you mean by 'taking over' maybe. I think there are far more photos being taken - well there are. Most people carry a phone around most of the time. Once a camera was added, it meant they could take photos when they wouldn't be carrying a camera, and gave the option not to carry a camera at all. Some areas of traditional photography (like landscapes, photojournalism, weddings, and portraiture) might be suffering a little from the encroachment, but people still use dedicated cameras for wildlife, sport, and anything high end. It's not that phones are pushing cameras out so much as massively increasing the opportunities for photographs of general interest (and the internet has allowed them to be shared far more easily). And most people don't know or care about the loss of image quality (or the difference isn't apparent when viewed on small devices).

If simplicity is the selling point, why aren't simpler cameras like point-and-shoots doing better? Besides, you can buy a camera and ignore most of the buttons if you like. I really don't think DSLRs are competing directly with smartphones most of the time. Someone taking the plunge and buying a camera with interchangeable lenses has already decided that complication is an acceptable tradeoff for better image quality (perceived or real), or specialist capabilities.


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## jeffa4444 (Aug 6, 2014)

jdramirez

The AE-1 was one of Canon biggest selling cameras but was simple to use, likewise the step-up the A-1 was packed full of features both amateurs & professionals used yes that was film days and you needed to change film to change ISO but fantastics pictures were taken by those cameras. The AE-1 Program added you guessed it Programmed or basically auto expose but stayed true to the AE-1 formula now canon have depending where you live the EOS 1200D, 100D, 650D, 700D, 70D, 7D, 6D, 5DMKIII, 1D X & 1D C thats 10 different DSLRs if the market is saturated they will need to slim that down or face a sqeeze on margins in a shrinking marketplace.


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## jebrady03 (Aug 6, 2014)

iron-t said:


> Mark my words: the next Rebel will feature an 8-12 mp rear-facing camera for taking selfies while taking portraits of others. "This is what I look like when I'm taking photos!"
> 
> There appears to be no cute shorthand or portmanteau for "photos one has taken of another person." Othersies? Someday we will have to have a word for it.



I overheard what was probably a 12 year old girl inform her mother that a selfie with others on it is a "groupie". I think her mother rolled her eyes but I'm not positive as I had my head in my hands...


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## jeffa4444 (Aug 6, 2014)

scyrene
My point was adding more & more features is not what is going to advance or maintain DSLR camera sales the market is already confusing to many and even basic point & shoot cameras offer manual, shutter priorty, aperture priority, programmed & full auto. My point is the key to survival will be better image quality and the weakness currently is dynamic range 12-14 stops is well below the human eye, and streamlining products. 

Already car companies are looking to lower the number of variants on models because now they have confused car buyers just look at VW group, BMW etc. whereas Apple are hugely successful selling two versions of the iPhone.


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## scyrene (Aug 6, 2014)

jeffa4444 said:


> scyrene
> My point was adding more & more features is not what is going to advance or maintain DSLR camera sales the market is already confusing to many and even basic point & shoot cameras offer manual, shutter priorty, aperture priority, programmed & full auto. My point is the key to survival will be better image quality and the weakness currently is dynamic range 12-14 stops is well below the human eye, and streamlining products.
> 
> Already car companies are looking to lower the number of variants on models because now they have confused car buyers just look at VW group, BMW etc. whereas Apple are hugely successful selling two versions of the iPhone.



Hmm. I don't know anything about marketing, so I can't comment on that. I suspect true newbies mostly go for what they perceive as the best value option. Streamlining may make sense - but Canon must disagree, since they introduced another lower line (the 1100D, followed by 1200D). Then there's the 100D vs 700D. Although at the top end, they seemed to merge the 1D lines.

I absolutely don't think better image quality is the key to survival - since so few people seem to know or care what that is (assuming is can be objectively discussed at all). I see people very happy with shots I find execrable - they care about the content more than the dynamic range, sharpness, composition or whatever.


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## wsmith96 (Aug 6, 2014)

I'm amazed that this thread is still going.


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## jdramirez (Aug 6, 2014)

jeffa4444 said:


> scyrene
> My point was adding more & more features is not what is going to advance or maintain DSLR camera sales the market is already confusing to many and even basic point & shoot cameras offer manual, shutter priorty, aperture priority, programmed & full auto. My point is the key to survival will be better image quality and the weakness currently is dynamic range 12-14 stops is well below the human eye, and streamlining products.
> 
> Already car companies are looking to lower the number of variants on models because now they have confused car buyers just look at VW group, BMW etc. whereas Apple are hugely successful selling two versions of the iPhone.



That reminds me of Silicon Valley... when they are having the discussion about lessor formats winning out... like beta max over vhs... I forget what example they used... but I dare say it was funny.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Aug 6, 2014)

scyrene said:


> I absolutely don't think better image quality is the key to survival - since so few people seem to know or care what that is (assuming is can be objectively discussed at all). I see people very happy with shots I find execrable - they care about the content more than the dynamic range, sharpness, composition or whatever.



+100

Gear nerds will wish for better IQ and DR. Casual users won'y, and that is the vast majority of the entry level market. DR really only makes a difference for post processing - and yeah, how many causal users actually do any post processing? If they do, are they shooting in RAW? I'd dare say that most entry level users are shooting in jpeg, have 1 memory card that never leaves the camera. Connectivity will be the thing that breathes life into the market. I'd look for wifi, and simple file sharing (either through better phone to camera action, or direct from camera!) to be in rebels. dual Pixel will trickle both up and down - and IQ and DR will follow, but in a trickle down manner. New sensors aren't being made directly for rebels, the new tech will be in the pro bodies first. We may see some of that in the 7d2. But any of this tech is most liekly being designed with FF sensors in mind first!

Either way, I know we geeks would love to think that everyone values the same stuff as we do, but in reality - we geeks are the minority.

Even when it comes to pro shooting - like weddings - how many times are the crisp, post shot gets overlooked by the client in favor of a slightly out of focus/ overexposed/ poorly composed candid of the bride and groom laughing, or a hug...sometimes emotion trumps IQ and technical correctness!


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 6, 2014)

Antono Refa said:


> That would make for a 66MP sensor. Does any of Canon's lenses have the resolving power to match that?



I doubt it, but it's impossible to know.

Given that the 5D3 resolves more (on average) across the lens lineup than does the D800 across its lens lineup, I think it's likely that for Canon, the sensor is the limiting factor in total system resolution at the moment. By how much? Anybody's guess. Chances are they'll release a higher resolution sensor sometime soon. Regardless, more resolution in any one area improves total system resolution (with diminishing returns).

And finally: I was joking. They could, but they obviously won't.



wsmith96 said:


> Btw, I'm not ragging on macs - they just happen to be the easiest computers to work on.



I've been using OSX for several years now, and I still don't have it figured out. Windows is far more intuitive to me. Shrug.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 6, 2014)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> Gear nerds will wish for better IQ and DR. *Casual users won'[t]*, and that is the vast majority of the entry level market.



I must not be alone in having heard many times (not necessarily about my work): wow, nice photo, you must have a nice camera.

To most people who don't pursue photography, there is an expected link between quality of gear and quality of result. Of course there is a value decision, but casual buyers don't want low-quality images, and many are willing to pay higher prices on the assumption that doing so will improve their results.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Aug 6, 2014)

3kramd5 said:


> Chuck Alaimo said:
> 
> 
> > Gear nerds will wish for better IQ and DR. *Casual users won'[t]*, and that is the vast majority of the entry level market.
> ...



Very true. I used to get offended when people said that to me! Really all I'm saying is that 75% of the stuff we talk about here would go right over the heads of those of most entry level DSLR buyers and yes, users!!!


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## campbbri (Aug 6, 2014)

The sub-rebel model I would build would be called the "Serenity" or something stupid like that, with internal non removable flash, and have only a few buttons:

1. Shutter button
2. Mode dial with green box and 5 or so modes like sports / portrait, etc
3. Autofocus point selector between ALL / Center / Face Recognition (when using DPAF)
4. Send Photos button

The touchscreen menu would have very few options like disable flash, etc. The main feature would be to wirelessly connect to an iPhone or computer and either autosend to the device after each photo or manual send whenever the "Network Send" button is pushed. Micro-USB would be the only port, for both charging and connecting (although the battery would be removable).


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## jdramirez (Aug 7, 2014)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> +100
> 
> Gear nerds will wish for better IQ and DR. Casual users won'y, and that is the vast majority of the entry level market. DR really only makes a difference for post processing - and yeah, how many causal users actually do any post processing? If they do, are they shooting in RAW? I'd dare say that most entry level users are shooting in jpeg, have 1 memory card that never leaves the camera. Connectivity will be the thing that breathes life into the market. I'd look for wifi, and simple file sharing (either through better phone to camera action, or direct from camera!) to be in rebels. dual Pixel will trickle both up and down - and IQ and DR will follow, but in a trickle down manner. New sensors aren't being made directly for rebels, the new tech will be in the pro bodies first. We may see some of that in the 7d2. But any of this tech is most liekly being designed with FF sensors in mind first!
> 
> ...



I dare say I'm a reasonably seasoned photographer at the moment, but when I first got my xs I shot in aperture priority after a month...

I probably didn't post process until after a year or so... and I didn't start shooting in raw until three years in...

Off camera flash a few months after...

Backgrounds shortly thereafter... 

Dynamic range STILL ISN'T AN ISSUE FOR ME... though I'll cheat and use hdr if the lighting is a real challenge.


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## jeffa4444 (Aug 7, 2014)

The casual user may not know about dynamic range but they certainly notice burnt out skies, or overexposed parts of the frame. Lattitude would provide more keepers and better satifaction for casual photographers and a greater confidence in photography if it was not important I doubt all the CMOS designners & manufacturers would be spending $$$$$$ on improving sensitivity for a minority. 
Obviuosly in itself its only one aspect and Wi-Fi, GPS etc. is more appealing for advertizers to sell cameras to consumers after all we EXPECT cars to be reliable and that every new model has better gas consumption so it follows each new generation of camera should improve overall performance the point is we have a long way to go between 12 stops and 20 stops.


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## scyrene (Aug 7, 2014)

jeffa4444 said:


> The casual user may not know about dynamic range but they certainly notice burnt out skies, or overexposed parts of the frame. Lattitude would provide more keepers and better satifaction for casual photographers and a greater confidence in photography if it was not important I doubt all the CMOS designners & manufacturers would be spending $$$$$$ on improving sensitivity for a minority.
> Obviuosly in itself its only one aspect and Wi-Fi, GPS etc. is more appealing for advertizers to sell cameras to consumers after all we EXPECT cars to be reliable and that every new model has better gas consumption so it follows each new generation of camera should improve overall performance the point is we have a long way to go between 12 stops and 20 stops.



I dunno. Maybe we're thinking of different people, but most mobile photos shared on places like Twitter and Instagram have blown channels in the sky, or skin. And I daresay if I mentioned it, 99% of them wouldn't even know what I meant. It took me a couple of years to get to grips with photography terminology, and I was pretty obsessive about it. When I think how I would explain concepts to total beginners, I shudder.

That's not to say most people wouldn't think a photograph taken with a camera that has better dynamic range (to take one aspect of image quality) wasn't better than one taken with poorer kit, but I don't think most of them would know why - or be able to express it. And they wouldn't know what aspects of better equipment would give them that better image quality.

(I don't want to sound like I'm belittling people, but I have to go on what I've seen).


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## Chuck Alaimo (Aug 7, 2014)

jeffa4444 said:


> The casual user may not know about dynamic range but they certainly notice burnt out skies, or overexposed parts of the frame. Lattitude would provide more keepers and better satifaction for casual photographers and a greater confidence in photography if it was not important I doubt all the CMOS designners & manufacturers would be spending $$$$$$ on improving sensitivity for a minority.
> Obviuosly in itself its only one aspect and Wi-Fi, GPS etc. is more appealing for advertizers to sell cameras to consumers after all we EXPECT cars to be reliable and that every new model has better gas consumption so it follows each new generation of camera should improve overall performance the point is we have a long way to go between 12 stops and 20 stops.



this goes right back to what i said in a few posts back though, the benefit of that DR comes in post process - the image out of camera will not look significantly different. The point of DR is that to give latitude after the shot is taken. What I am saying is that most casual users shoot in jpeg and don't use any post process. Hell, I know many causal users who have shots from 2 years ago still on their memory cards, some even further back. Some that don't even know how to get the photos off their camera! 

IMO, the casual user would prefer some kind of in cam HDR to more DR because they can get the effect of more DR without doing any PP. It's easy to be here on these forums and forget that WE are in the minority.

Another point to consider here too - casual users and burnt out skies, overexposed parts of the frame, and more than likely lots of red eye washed out on camera flash - we are talking about casual users, folks who go full auto everything (AF in all points active mode too) ---- maybe the skies would be a bit better if they took the time to learn how to use their camera!!!! I know that sounds real condescending, but, you have no clue how often I get asked simple questions - and many of these people have owned their rebel for years (and yeah, the nikon equivalent). At least when its a canon i can show them stuff, but when its an entry level nikon person, I always say ---check the manual, it'll explain it...they say, I don't have the manual... I say - well, you should be able to find it online ---- then they say, I'll just ask my other friend, he shoots nikon....I shoot a lot of events so I get asked these questions quite a bit. These are the users that drive the entry level market. 

Some end up liking photography enough to read the manual, then find tutorials and learn, maybe even take a class or 2. these are the folks that end up taking the plunge into the XXD, XD series cameras. 

Things like DR and low ISO IQ, max ISO IQ, buffer, FPS, AF control, AF tracking, AFMA, ...this is all stuff that will only matter to those who take things to the next level. That's why new awesomeness will come first in the semipro and pro bodies. The XXD and XD series market does care about this stuff.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Aug 7, 2014)

scyrene said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > The casual user may not know about dynamic range but they certainly notice burnt out skies, or overexposed parts of the frame. Lattitude would provide more keepers and better satifaction for casual photographers and a greater confidence in photography if it was not important I doubt all the CMOS designners & manufacturers would be spending $$$$$$ on improving sensitivity for a minority.
> ...



+100 that's pretty much what I just said!


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## pablo (Aug 7, 2014)

Arguably Canon haven't launched a new rebel since the T2i...


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