# Advice needed: thinking of a 5D as a second body



## sagittariansrock (Apr 17, 2014)

I am considering the pros and cons of getting a 5DI as a second body. 
It might come handy as an inexpensive camera for street photography, or in suboptimal conditions (like for my Niagara trip) where I don't want to take my $ 3K camera. It will be a good second camera where I don't want to or cannot change lenses.
However, I have never actually held a 5D and since I might buy online, I was trying to get an idea of what to expect in terms of features (or lack thereof), ergonomics, usage guidelines, etc. I have used a 50D and 7D before getting my 5DIII and I am quite familiar with the 5DII. 
Also, what should I expect to pay for a reasonably good condition 5D? The prices are widely variable and quite confusing. I see people selling 8+ ones of FM for $ 380 and 7+ ones for $ 600 on CR. 
Are there things to specifically look for in a used 5D (I know the mirror fix is one)? Is it better to buy from FredMiranda or Craigslist? I have never bought a camera on CR, although I've bought lenses. Or should I play it safe and get it from Adorama or KEH?
Sorry for the many questions. As always your time is most appreciated.
Thanks, Deep


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## Sporgon (Apr 17, 2014)

I used a 5D for years - from 2005 in fact. You'll find the LCD, menus and transfer rates inferior to later cameras. Also it doesn't have AFMA so it's important to check a new purchase is accurate with your lenses. Ones that have a serial number beginning with '2' or '3' have both the mirror modification and a better LCD screen, so avoid ones beginning with '0' or '1'. 

Ooc joeys are also much better from later cameras, but you're probably using predominantly RAW anyway so it's of no consequence. Obviously there is no live view or video. 

Other than the factors I'm mentioned I think it's pretty close to the latest kit at 100 to 400 ISO. Perhaps a little harsher in tonal quality. It also responds really well to ISO 50 - or overexposing 100 by one full stop in Raw on reducing in post. ( highlights allowing).

In the UK a good one sells for £450. As a comparison a good mark II goes for about £950.


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## sagittariansrock (Apr 17, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> I used a 5D for years - from 2005 in fact. You'll find the LCD, menus and transfer rates inferior to later cameras. Also it doesn't have AFMA so it's important to check a new purchase is accurate with your lenses. Ones that have a serial number beginning with '2' or '3' have both the mirror modification and a better LCD screen, so avoid ones beginning with '0' or '1'.
> 
> Ooc joeys are also much better from later cameras, but you're probably using predominantly RAW anyway so it's of no consequence. Obviously there is no live view or video.
> 
> ...



Thanks Sporgon, that was really informative.


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## BL (Apr 17, 2014)

I too have been shooting the 5D since 2005 and I still enjoy using it. It was the camera that convinced me to ditch wet processing for dry! 

That said, you have to understand its limitations given what's available to us today - dated LCD (just use it for histograms), AWB can be fiddly at times, forget AI servo, not a lot of headroom for cropping, and I generally won't push the ISO beyond 1250.

But I still enjoy using it because it produces lovely files and really like how simple a tool it is. If the mirror work hasn't been done, don't worry about it. Contact Canon and they will still honor that recall and fix it at no cost to you, even though it's been 5 years since they announced it.

Look out for dirty viewfinders. My 5Ds viewfinder looked like a litter box after 7 years, but Canon was kind enough to clean it out along with the sensor when they performed my mirror reinforcement fix a year or so ago.

Should be able to find a clean one for around $500USD. I would suggest craiglist or a way to buy in person so you can check it out, unless the online seller has posted more than enough pictures to leave little to the imagination.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Apr 18, 2014)

There are hardcore supporters of the idea that "full frame is always better. :-X" I do not think so, and choose 70D without hesitation. ??? Weather sealed, AFMA, AF far superior, more images per second, higher resolution, LCD infinitely better, etc... : I have not used original 5D, but some friends use and the noise in the shadows is very ugly. :-[ Any Rebel model currently has more like colored noise film, while the original 5D has horrible colored spots. 8)


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## sagittariansrock (Apr 18, 2014)

Thanks, BL. Very useful tips. 

aj, to each his own. For my specific purpose, I need a cheaper full frame body to complement my 5DIII where I cannot take the latter, and where I cannot change lenses. 
Also, thanks for sharing the information about shadow noise in the 5D. 

I do understand one cannot get everything at once. I have to expect some trade-off for getting a FF camera for so cheap. I just need to make sure the trade-off is in the right areas. The AFMA is a bit of a worry though.


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## BL (Apr 18, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:


> Thanks, BL. Very useful tips.
> 
> aj, to each his own. For my specific purpose, I need a cheaper full frame body to complement my 5DIII where I cannot take the latter, and where I cannot change lenses.
> Also, thanks for sharing the information about shadow noise in the 5D.
> ...



I did not notice a problem with my 2.8 lenses in regards to AFMA. Anything faster than that, prepare to use your eyeballs and a high precision Ec-S screen 




ajfotofilmagem said:


> There are hardcore supporters of the idea that "full frame is always better. :-X" I do not think so, and choose 70D without hesitation. ??? Weather sealed, AFMA, AF far superior, more images per second, higher resolution, etc... : I have not used original 5D, but some friends use and the noise in the shadows is very ugly. :-[ Any Rebel model currently has more like colored noise film, while the original 5D has horrible colored spots. 8)



I have not used any rebels, but I don't think i experienced what I would call horrible colored spots in the shadows. I expose everything to the right with the 5D (as with all my canons), so perhaps that is a partial offset?

I do however use the M frequently and its performance does not leave me thinking twice to reach for the 5D, despite the technology gap. Although I will say I prefer the noise pattern of my 5D over the M when ISOs go north of 400.


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## sagittariansrock (Apr 18, 2014)

BL said:


> sagittariansrock said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks, BL. Very useful tips.
> ...



Oh, that's true. I can use the Ec-S with the 5d!


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## BL (Apr 18, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:


> Oh, that's true. I can use the Ec-S with the 5d!



Oops! I think the Ec-S is for the mkII. I believe the Ee-S is for the 5Dc. Sorry about that.

The Ee-S works well on 2.8 aperture lenses and confirming your AF is on track. Let me temper your expectations on anything faster than 2.8. While the center AF point is golden for most all my lenses, it was not up to the challenge with my 85II. I had a *passable* hit rate using the Ee-S leveraging skills carried over from the old FD system, but that lens is really singing now paired with modern AF.


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## JonAustin (Apr 18, 2014)

I bought a 5D1 in 2007, and moved my 20D to back-up body status. Then I bought a 5D3 in 12/2012, moved my 5D1 to back-up, and the 20D collects dust.

Using the 5D1/20D combo was easy, because their controls and menu systems are virtually identical, and they use the same batteries. Also, the 20D's sensor is higher resolution and an APS-C crop of the 5D1, so when I used both bodies together (to avoid lens changes), I would mount a wide-angle or standard lens on the 5D1, and a telephoto on the 20D.

The 5D3 is a different beast, entirely. When switching between the two 5D generations, I'm constantly having to remind myself which one I'm using, and adjust my interaction with it accordingly. 

There isn't anything wrong with your plan to buy a 5D for use as a 2nd body, but I wouldn't do it. For the money, I'd rather buy a more modern crop body with controls and interface more similar to the 5D3.

Personally, I'm (patiently) waiting for the price of the 5D3 to drop to about $2,500, and then I'll buy a second one. Sadly, it seems like the price has gone UP lately, what with Canon's recent MAP policy enforcement and all.


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## BL (Apr 18, 2014)

You bring up some good points, but it sounds like the OP needs/wants his backup to be a FF body, despite the advances and benefits to be had with a more modern crop sensor.

For the pricepoint (~$500), there really aren't other options to be had.


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## sagittariansrock (Apr 18, 2014)

JonAustin said:


> There isn't anything wrong with your plan to buy a 5D for use as a 2nd body, but I wouldn't do it. For the money, I'd rather buy a more modern crop body with controls and interface more similar to the 5D3.



Jon, I see your point. However, purchasing a more advanced camera will defeat the point of having a cheap second fiddle for me. Even the 5DII doesn't go for lower than 1K, and for that money I'd rather pay extra and get the 6D. Maybe if I shoot 20K pictures in 2014 I will reward myself with a second 5DIII (not a question of quantity really, just challenging myself to go out and shoot more). 



BL said:


> The Ee-S works well on 2.8 aperture lenses and confirming your AF is on track. Let me temper your expectations on anything faster than 2.8. While the center AF point is golden for most all my lenses, it was not up to the challenge with my 85II. I had a *passable* hit rate using the Ee-S leveraging skills carried over from the old FD system, but that lens is really singing now paired with modern AF.



Well, that's a bummer! I learnt dSLR photography on an FM-10 (shhh!) and the split image focusing was good enough even for the 1.4 primes. I really miss that... (WISTFUL SMILEY)


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## Sporgon (Apr 18, 2014)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> I have not used original 5D, but some friends use and the noise in the shadows is very ugly. :-[ Any Rebel model currently has more like colored noise film, while the original 5D has horrible colored spots. 8)



As a long time user of the 5D, often in very 'difficult' lighting conditions, I strongly disagree. If you really foul up the exposure of a 5D II the 'noise in the shadows' is actually worse than the 5D. 

Regarding buying a more modern crop camera for the same money; I can't disagree on that. It just depends upon have valid your reasons are for wanting the larger sensor.


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## JonAustin (Apr 18, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:


> JonAustin said:
> 
> 
> > There isn't anything wrong with your plan to buy a 5D for use as a 2nd body, but I wouldn't do it. For the money, I'd rather buy a more modern crop body with controls and interface more similar to the 5D3.
> ...



It's all good, and I certainly understand your objective of not wanting to risk damage to -- or loss of -- an expensive body in hazardous environments.

I also agree that you could get a good-quality 5D for well under $1K, but it wasn't clear to me that that was your price ceiling.

Given the low prices for 5D bodies, my concern would then shift to how expensive a lens you plan to mount on it when you're roaming about risky terrain. After all, the body is only half of the (camera / investment) equation.


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## sagittariansrock (Apr 18, 2014)

JonAustin said:


> sagittariansrock said:
> 
> 
> > JonAustin said:
> ...



That's easy, it would be either my 50 1.8 or my 35A.


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## gshocked (Apr 19, 2014)

Hi

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works but aren't you better getting a new or second hand 7d?
Wouldn't that camera perform better overall than an older 5d mk I?


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## BL (Apr 19, 2014)

But the OP wants a FF sensor to match his 5D3.

the 40mm pancake lives on my 5Dc. I love that combo!


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## gshocked (Apr 19, 2014)

BL said:


> But the OP wants a FF sensor to match his 5D3.
> 
> the 40mm pancake lives on my 5Dc. I love that combo!



Oh... Could you save a little more and get a 5d II second hand?


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## Don Haines (Apr 19, 2014)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> There are hardcore supporters of the idea that "full frame is always better. :-X" I do not think so, and choose 70D without hesitation. ??? Weather sealed, AFMA, AF far superior, more images per second, higher resolution, LCD infinitely better, etc... : I have not used original 5D, but some friends use and the noise in the shadows is very ugly. :-[ Any Rebel model currently has more like colored noise film, while the original 5D has horrible colored spots. 8)


I'd pick a 70D over a 5D any day of the week. With a 5D2, there would be a lot of humming and hawing and then I'd get the 5D2. The 5D2 is a major improvement over the 5D... heck, a T5i is an improvement over the 5D.

to go from a 5D to a 5D2 changes:
from 12 to 21 megapixels
max ISO from 3200 to 25,600
both with 9 focus points
a larger screen with 4 times the number of pixels
an impossible to find battery to the LP-E6 that seems to be in everything now....
you get video
you get live view
you get sensor cleaning


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## sagittariansrock (Apr 19, 2014)

Thanks for the suggestions aj, gshocked and Don regarding the 7D/70D, however:
I just sold my 7D after buying my 5DIII because I simply don't see a role for APS-C camera for me any more.
While the 7D and 70D are excellent cameras,

1. They aren't as cheap. 
2. They won't replace my FF focal lengths or replicate the DoF I can get (this really is the most important aspect I want my backup to have the same sensor size- which is why I am not considering the 60D either).
3. Won't be as good in high ISO- now that, of course, is a presumption. I am presuming the 5Dc will be better than any crop sensor camera at ISO, say 1600. Is that true? I am only thinking theoretically having never used the 5D. The 5DII, of course, blows the 7D out of the water.

Now what you say about getting a used 5DII instead makes more sense, except that won't be possible for me right now. 
I suppose I can always wait a few months and save a bit more, and hope 5DII prices come down as well. Of course, the 5DII is a fantastic camera- just could never stand missing the 7D AF. But for a 2nd camera it isn't a problem. Hmmm (THOUGHTFUL SMILEY)


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## Don Haines (Apr 19, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:


> Thanks for the suggestions aj, gshocked and Don regarding the 7D/70D, however:
> I just sold my 7D after buying my 5DIII because I simply don't see a role for APS-C camera for me any more.
> While the 7D and 70D are excellent cameras,
> 
> ...


6D????


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## sagittariansrock (Apr 19, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> 6D????





sagittariansrock said:


> Jon, I see your point. However, purchasing a more advanced camera will defeat the point of having a cheap second fiddle for me. Even the 5DII doesn't go for lower than 1K, and for that money I'd rather pay extra and get the 6D.


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## gshocked (Apr 19, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > There are hardcore supporters of the idea that "full frame is always better. :-X" I do not think so, and choose 70D without hesitation. ??? Weather sealed, AFMA, AF far superior, more images per second, higher resolution, LCD infinitely better, etc... : I have not used original 5D, but some friends use and the noise in the shadows is very ugly. :-[ Any Rebel model currently has more like colored noise film, while the original 5D has horrible colored spots. 8)
> ...



+1

Hi sagittariansrock,

The AF of the 5D mk II is quite usable. Its not as snappy as the 7D but its OK.
I know the price difference is quite a bit but if you can wait I think you'd be happier.


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## RLPhoto (Apr 19, 2014)

I also shot a 5Dc + 7D combo for some years waiting for the mk3. The 5Dc is a 20d with a FF sensor. It feels like cheap plastic in the hands, the LCD is low resolution and hard to check focus even zooming in, the AF is about the same as 5d2, the handgrip feels to squared off, and it makes the most satisfying clunk when you release the stone and mortar like shutter. 

However, if you can get one sub-400$ and the eg-s focusing screen, it makes a sweet beat up camera. The RAW files you get are very flat and more natural looking than what I get out of my mk3s straight away with no fiddling. I found all its ISO range to be usable if processed but it's limited to 3200. The single center point Is very good. It's just a simple camera with no frills and I'd still choose one over a rebel thus far in 2014.


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## sagittariansrock (May 18, 2014)

Hi all,
Thanks for the great advice. I ended up getting a nice deal on the 5Dc and having used it for a couple of days, and I like it already. Unfortunately, I have only shot people till now (who don't like their pictures on the net), but I should be able to post some pictures soon. 
In case someone has the same questions as me, here's what I like so far:
1. The images are very nice (and I mean *really* nice), and as RLP said, I needed very little PP in LR. Actually, I just fitted the lens profile and pushed the WB a tad, and that was it. Shots at ISO 1600 are totally ok to push exposures by a stop without any significant deterioration of shadows (didn't try more than that). The fact that I can shoot at 1600 and be perfectly happy with it, trumps the 7D (that I had) right there.
2. AF with center point was absolutely fine. I didn't want to fiddle with the peripheral ones anyway because it was dark.
Here's what I don't like so much:
1. The shutter sound is loud, I almost flinch and worry the mirror will come off (well, it has been reinforced).
2. The LCD is small and low-res and green (Did they borrow this one from Nikon?). There's no way to see a histogram at the same time (it might be technically possible, but practically pointless).
3. No Auto ISO. I really miss that feature.
4. The long-winded menu system. They could have updated the firmware...
I did know 2 and 3 going in though, so not much bothered.

Now, I have a follow-up question. The sensor has a bit of dust, and I know there is no sensor cleaning system.
So should I send it in and get Canon to do it (might also get a replacement screen), or is it something that can be safely attempted by self using a rocket blower (no, I won't go into the stamping/swiping tools)? I have attached a picture of the sensor. Advice will be greatly appreciated. 

Second question- I know RLP suggested getting the Ee-S screen, but is there any benefit to the Ee-D with the grids? Thanks.


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## Valvebounce (May 18, 2014)

Hi Sagittariansrock.
I would try blowing, possibly seeing how much junk you have in there I would try a small tube taped to the vacuum cleaner, adjust suction and overload on the motor by leaving part of the taped joint open, place the end just inside the mount to encourage the junk to leave rather than just redistribute it! 
May I ask why you won't try a wet clean if it is needed? With a system from one supplier, their swabs and fluid following the instructions you can't really go wrong. I suspect that blowing will remove some but not all dirt, I would not be happy with any dirt on the sensor after cleaning, I was looking at a couple of pics yesterday and had the damn I have dirt , then I realised one was an OOF bird and the other was debris (seaweed?) in the wave splash!

Cheers Graham.



sagittariansrock said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Now, I have a follow-up question. The sensor has a bit of dust, and I know there is no sensor cleaning system.
> So should I send it in and get Canon to do it (might also get a replacement screen), or is it something that can be safely attempted by self using a rocket blower (no, I won't go into the stamping/swiping tools)? I have attached a picture of the sensor. Advice will be greatly appreciated.
> ...


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## Sporgon (May 18, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:


> Second question- I know RLP suggested getting the Ee-S screen, but is there any benefit to the Ee-D with the grids? Thanks.



The Ee-d is just the standard screen with a grid, so whilst it is a benefit for keeping the camera level it is no better for real dof. 

If you are using lenses faster than 2.8 then the s screen will show real dof and help manual focus between f1.2 and f2.8. With the standard screen the dof at these apertures is hidden so you can't manually or even see, the exact point of focus within a 2.8 dof. 

With the AF system of the 5Diii Canon must have felt you don't need to manually focus an f1.2 - f2 lens, or see real dof. Not sure if the CR community is representative of the whole, but if it is they got that wrong.


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## RLPhoto (May 18, 2014)

Skip the ee-d screen. It doesn't help with seeing DOF.

As for dust, try a blower first then move onto sensor swabs if the previous fails. Then if all else fails, send it to canon for a cleaning.


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## sagittariansrock (May 18, 2014)

Thanks RL, Sporgon and Graham
I will try the blower>sensor swab (Why didn't I want to try this? Because I'm skittish)>Canon, unless I decide for the Ee-S sooner, in which case I might just send it in.
I don't have an f/1.2 lens though, I'll have to see how the 5D AF feels with the f/1.4s and the 135/2.


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