# There's More to a Camera System Than Just the Gear



## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 15, 2016)

```
There’s an<a href="http://petapixel.com/2016/03/14/photographer-matt-granger-ditching-sony/" target="_blank"> interesting article on PetaPixel</a> about Australian professional photographer Matt Granger and his experience with the Sony A7 cameras and the level  of support you receive when you own Sony gear in Australia.</p>
<p>His experiences seem to mimic mine in Canada, the quality of service from Sony Canada is abysmal at best. I’ve had a number of items that have needed repair, and every single one of them took more than 12 weeks to get back to me, and one of the items I haven’t seen for 6 months.</p>
<p>I  tracked all of our Canon repairs when Lens Rentals Canada was open, and 90% of the repairs done by Canon Canada took less than 2 weeks door-to-door.</p>
<p>From Matt Granger</p>
<blockquote><p>“It all comes down to <em>service</em>,” Granger <a title="" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apCc5JD4PYs" target="_blank" rel="external">writes</a>. “For many types of my work the gear itself is suitable for me. The sensors are quality. The images and video are outstanding. For other work I have never used them (rough conditions, tricky focus).”</p>
<p>“But with service like this – I just can’t use them at all.”</p></blockquote>
<p>Service isn’t going to be great every time, but it should be more often than not. In Canada, I recommend joining the <a href="http://www.canon.ca/inetCA/en/categoryHome/msegid/5/catid/4345" target="_blank">Canon Canada CPS program</a>, even if you’re not a professional, you can qualify for the Gold level of service and support.</p>
<p>The quality of image that the Sony system can produce is outstanding, but I don’t feel it’s worth being without a camera or lens for months if something goes wrong.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


----------



## Maximilian (Mar 15, 2016)

> There's More to a Camera System Than Just the Gear


+1000
What do you gain from a few percent of better image quality if you can't rely on gear or service?


----------



## axtstern (Mar 15, 2016)

Depends on where in the world you are.

I d not earn money with my gear but a failing central piece of my equipment still hurts.
However my situation is special. A lot of very old Canon gear, a lot of thirdparty.

My strategy is usually: Avoid single failure when you take your equipment to anywhere it counts.
If it breaks outside of the 1, 3 or 5 year warranty or if it broke because I dropped it:
Buy a newer, better or more sexy substitue to apieve my GAS and take the broken warrior on my next China trip. The various camera shop sprawls in the larger Chinese cities always have skilled tinkerers who stangely have all that spareparts Canon has ceased to provide. Also 3rd party lenses especially the expensive Sigma zooms like the 120-300 seem often to fail with the rolls running inthe bearings of the zoom mechanism. A major finacial pain in Europe, a 50 Euro operation in China. Canon lenses are spread enough over the world to allow you to find people who can deal with them. The more exotic manufacturers (including Sony) simply never reached critical mass.


----------



## Refurb7 (Mar 15, 2016)

But ... but ... but ... Sony has 4K. And mirrorless. So it must be good.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Mar 15, 2016)

Refurb7 said:


> But ... but ... but ... Sony has 4K. And mirrorless. So it must be good.



The sensor, man...the sensor!! Nothing else matters... :


----------



## JohanCruyff (Mar 15, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Refurb7 said:
> 
> 
> > But ... but ... but ... Sony has 4K. And mirrorless. So it must be good.
> ...


So, IF Canon's new generation of Sensors+ADC improves Low ISO Dynamic Range, they will reduce the quality of service accordingly?


----------



## kaptainkatsu (Mar 15, 2016)

Service is everything. That is why for my primary job, 99% of the time I buy Snap-on tools. If I have any problems, I call my dealer, he's at my shop within a week and fixes/replaces no questions asked.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Mar 15, 2016)

JohanCruyff said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Refurb7 said:
> ...



Sure – after copying their sensor, why not copy Sony's innovatively poor service?


----------



## Don Haines (Mar 15, 2016)

kaptainkatsu said:


> Service is everything. That is why for my primary job, 99% of the time I buy Snap-on tools. If I have any problems, I call my dealer, he's at my shop within a week and fixes/replaces no questions asked.



I broke one of their 3/4 inch drive 2 1/2 inch sockets..... The Snap-on guy showed up at 8:00am next morning and said "you get a free replacement but you have to tell me how you broke it". Despite having used an 8' long "handle extension", they still claimed it should not have happened and the guy opened up a new set to give me my replacement socket as they did not have any loose spares of that size..... Now that's service!


----------



## J.R. (Mar 15, 2016)

The best camera is the one in your hands, as long as it is working, that is!


----------



## MrFotoFool (Mar 15, 2016)

This is the main (perhaps only) reason I chose Canon over Nikon about 16 years ago when I wanted to switch to an autofocus (film) system. I had been using Pentax K1000. I was leaning towards a newly released Nikon model, I think it was N90S, so I filled in a photo magazine reply card to Nikon for information. Several weeks, no information arrived. So I called their 800 number, request appropriate brochures, they took my address, several weeks nothing arrived. I thought if they cannot even respond to a potential new user who wants to buy their equipment, they must have terrible service and I do not want to deal with them.

So I called Canon 800 number and in less than a week several brochures were in my mailbox. Based on that experience I bought the Canon Elan2e (and eventually a second one) which were my main cameras for about a decade.

Another important factor (that has nothing to do with sensors, dynamic range, etc) is overall feel and ease of use. I taught camera classes at a local photo lab and the layout of Nikon bodies is far less intuitive than Canon bodies. Even my co instructor who is a Nikon user himself often had a hard time finding how to change functions on Nikons.


----------



## StanFoxworthy (Mar 16, 2016)

I have to agree completely. As a working pro (going into my 40th year doing this!), service is paramount. When I finally went digital in 2003, a buddy of mine who is an Olympus Visionary, connected me with Olympus and the E-1. They had their OGPS (Olympus Global Professional Service) and to great care of us working pros. Then they went through some issues corporate wide and service became non-existent beginning in 2010. We put out the call to both Canon and Nikon to check out demo gear for the studio, and something very interested happened.
The Canon rep drove four and a half hours out to our studio, spent the day with us, and set us up with demo gear. He also made a personal introduction to the head of CPS and made sure we had everyone's contact info. In the mean time, we didn't so much as even get a return phone call or e-mail from Nikon. I had shot professionally with Nikon in the late 1970's, so I figured I had at least a chance with them!
We have been with Canon ever since, and I must say their service is unsurpassed! We all know that things will stop working sooner or later, or they get dropped and damaged. I love the fact that there is someone in our corner on the gear side!


----------



## Maui5150 (Mar 16, 2016)

Canon service has been amazing. Already told the story a few times where a kid knocked my 5D MK III out of my hands and cracked the casing near the hot shoe - under 1 week turn around and far cheaper than I expected. Would not have been worth an insurance claim, that is for sure. Love CPS, they have always treated me well and super fast. Heard the stories about Nikon and my three main reasons for Canon were 1) The Glass, 2) The Service, 3) The presence.

Canon products, especially glass, seems to hold the value well, and given they have a larger presence, often easier to find products on secondary market. Some of the Nikon offerings as of late have been a little tempting, but for those few thinks I like better, there is far more I don't want to give up.


----------



## kubelik (Mar 16, 2016)

when my brother-in-law decided to get into photography as a hobby, we had a long discussion of whether or not he should go Sony or Canon. as a computer science guy, he was initially enamored of Sony as a company really pushing the technical envelope. browsing some forums, he deduced that Canon was imminently in fear of death due to not shoving all the best technical goodies into the 5D Mark III and this further convinced him to go Sony.

so I discussed the concept that the OP has pointed out, that when you buy an interchangeable lens camera, you are buying into a system. Sony doesn't come close to matching Canon's system. it's clear that Sony wins if you want a mirrorless body, or if you want lots and lots of bells and whistles. to me though, that's pretty much where the Sony wins stop.

lens selection: only Nikon can even come close to Canon. Sony is decades away from having the comprehensive lens portfolio that Canon provides to EF-mount users. and with lens rentals becoming a thing, you really do have affordable access to every single one of those EF-mount lenses.

lens cost: Sony lenses are generally more expensive than their equivalent performing Canon counterparts.

customer support: even for non-pros, we sometimes break things. I busted a 16-35mm f/2.8 L lens horribly, it got shipped out to Canon, fixed, sent back like-new, and has kept on working for four years now. cost me a little north of $200 at the time, and only took a week between sending it out in a box and getting it back in my hand. not using CPS, just support for regular joes. 

ubiquity: in a similar vein, if you were to lose/drop/destroy a lens while traveling somewhere else in the world during a long trip, I'm pretty sure the first camera store you waltz into will have something that can mount to your EF or EF-S camera. not so confident about Sony.

confidence in system: Sony has been all over the map with their camera offerings. they're doing what we refer to in the corporate world as "throw it against the wall and see what sticks". you've got A-mount, you've got A-mount DT, you've got E-mount, you've got E-mount FE... now it's NEX, now it's just Alpha, now it's DSLRs, now it's pellicle mirror DSLRs, now it's mirrorless. Sony is a massive corporation that could easily write off their entire camera division and just dedicate themselves to sensors, or rededicate themselves to cell phones, or pull out altogether and focus on any of the thousand other things that Sony does (basically, pull a Samsung). Canon's got other divisions but their camera unit is a fundamental part of their corporate identity. where some people see lack of innovation and boring products when they view the Canon M-line and unwillingness to go crazy with EF-S and EF DSLRs, I actually see a very reassuring constancy in product lineup that makes me confident in continuing to buy their products.

the stuff you don't see: read Roger Cicala's lens teardowns and look at how Canon is paying attention to designing its circuit boards and barrels for robustness and ease of service. also read his experiences with different companies from the perspective of a vendor. check out the Canon CPS room at the Super Bowl or the Olympics. this is why Canon is the apex predator in the photo world. people on forums always talk about how "it's so simple, why can't Canon see this one thing" when in reality, it's Canon that sees millions of tiny details that you, the casual shooter and forum browser, are missing. and it's those things that actually make the biggest impact on the bottom line.

the doom-and-gloom is overhyped: I laughed when my brother-in-law told me the part about how if Canon doesn't "fix" the 5D Mark III with the 5D Mark IV, it's *******. I told him that everyone on forums said the same thing about ... pretty much every other Canon DSLR ever. I've been around long enough to remember the complaints about the 5D Mark II, the 50D, the 7D, the 1D Mark IV, the 1DX, the 7D Mark II, the 6D... and yet each of these products releases, they sell fantastically, and you walk around and see them in the hands of tons of people who shoot seriously and casually. I told him to actually keep track as we were on vacation and see how many people were shooting with Canon DSLRs versus Fuji, Olympus, Sony, Panasonic, and Nikon bodies. not just draw a data set from one anecdote, or one day, or your impressions from one moment, but very seriously keep track of every camera body you see. we saw a TON of canons.

and finally, word of mouth: when your product occupies a large part of the market, it's easy to find people with lenses that are compatible with your camera. while I'm not a professional, I have photographed for half a dozen weddings as the primary photographer. I've been able to swap lenses with the video guy because, hey, we're both shooting Canon. I've been able to swap lenses with coworkers for fun because, hey, we both shoot Canon. nowadays my brother-in-law swaps lenses with me because, hey, he wound up buying a 6D and loving it.

props to the OP for starting this thread. I don't think it will be read or appreciated that much by the folks who like to come here and whine about Canon, but it needs to be pointed out time and again to new folks who haven't had an opportunity yet to see or understand the whole package that Canon offers.


----------



## AcutancePhotography (Mar 16, 2016)

I guess I have been lucky. I have been shooting 35mm/DSLR since 1980 and I have never had to send in any camera equipment in for servicing. 

I don't really consider the servicing in my purchasing decisions. But then, I am a hobbyist.


----------



## Random Orbits (Mar 16, 2016)

AcutancePhotography said:


> I guess I have been lucky. I have been shooting 35mm/DSLR since 1980 and I have never had to send in any camera equipment in for servicing.
> 
> I don't really consider the servicing in my purchasing decisions. But then, I am a hobbyist.



Depends... on the initial cost. For something that cost a few hundred dollars with a repair cost of a few hundred, the quality/availability of service is not that important. For something that cost a few thousand dollars with repair costs in the hundreds, then service can be important. And it's not just to address manufacturer defects. It is also for user-induced damage (i.e. drops).

I'm a hobbyist too, but my 5DIII started giving me intermittent error codes after a couple years of use (past the warranty period). It cost several hundred for the repair, but that was far cheaper than buying a camera to replace it.


----------



## slclick (Mar 16, 2016)

Get a taste of CPS with a free Silver membership. It's not a lot but you get more than what you pay for and then if you decide to go Gold you have an idea of just what value it offers and more. It's also far cheaper than some insurance policies. (Have both, I do)


----------



## Jopa (Mar 16, 2016)

Never dealt with the Sony photo service, but dealt with their laptop repair service. TL;DR, but if somebody's interested - read on. I had ~$3000 VAIO Z laptop and one of the USB ports broke. I had an on-site repair warranty, so a technician popped up in a few days after my call, and that's not bad. The bad thing - he had no parts to replace at all, no idea what he expected to do on site though... He ordered a PCB with the port and showed up next week and suddenly realized the broken port is actually soldered onto the motherboard (left side), and it's not the PCB he got (right side). Nice... He offered to mail the laptop to a Sony repair facility in CA. A week later I got the laptop back repaired but with a broken lid sensor. Called Sony again, spent a little over 1 hr explaining that it's not a "driver issue" and I did "turned it off and on again", talked to a few "supervisors" and finally got a confirmation to send the laptop back to CA. A week after got the laptop back fully functioning, it worked happily ever after for about a year and then motherboard died but it was out of warranty already 
So you may ask did I learn a lesson? Yes I did - when the ISO dial stopped clicking on my A7r I just sold the camera on eBay and didn't mess with the Sony service. The Sony stuff is good while it's working. If you buy something from Sony - make sure to buy their best and longest warranty, and consider the warranty price as a part of the actual equipment you're buying. And unfortunately it still means nothing if the service sucks.


----------



## drjlo (Mar 17, 2016)

*Matt Granger explains why he is dropping Sony for his work*

I guess poor Sony service is not exactly news..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apCc5JD4PYs


----------



## J.R. (Mar 17, 2016)

*Re: Matt Granger explains why he is dropping Sony for his work*



drjlo said:


> I guess poor Sony service is not exactly news..
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apCc5JD4PYs



No its not. Poor service from Sony is known to everyone who has owned a Sony cameras.


----------



## Maui5150 (Mar 17, 2016)

*Re: Matt Granger explains why he is dropping Sony for his work*



drjlo said:


> I guess poor Sony service is not exactly news..
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apCc5JD4PYs



Ironically, or maybe not, the YouTube video is by the guy (Matt Granger) who the 1st post in this thread is about...

It comes Full Circle I guess


----------



## Maui5150 (Mar 17, 2016)

Listened / Watched the Granger YouTube Video.

I really don't see Sony Professional services taking off. Sony right now is a niche in the camera industry. There is an economy to scale. Nikon and Canon have such a large population, especially in the Pro community, they can have several world wide dedicated service centers. Sony on the other hand, has a few Pros, more enthusiasts, and in general, my past experience has been Sony ALWAYS outsources, so the same service center that treats the camera, DVD players, laptops, etc. 

This to me is a case for Sony to provide the same level of service as Canon for example would be EXTREMELY expensive, because there just are not the volume of lenses and bodies in the wild, so to have convenient World Wide Service Centers, there would be too much down time to properly staff.

As an example. Canon has produced over 100 MILLION EF lenses. How many are still in production? Who knows... But When I start looking at the number of Canon Lenses, 1D and 5D bodies, there is enough demand for Canon, and I just don't see it with Sony


----------



## bardamu (Mar 17, 2016)

Canon gets s**tcanned relentlessly on these forums a lot of the time. There's no shortage of negativity. On a few counts it is justified but mostly not.

However, nice to see here that so many people have positive things to say about the quality of Canon's service.

The present thread actually reminded me of one from the past. I never thought I'd be able to find it in the archives, but to my surprise I did:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=14036.0

Really outstanding story and nice that the person was appreciative enough to post it on the forum too.

I had one experience with Canon's service centre, also here in Australia, regarding a burnt out motor within one of my macro lenses. Problem was fixed very quickly, with good communication, and not exorbitantly either. Was totally pleased with it.


----------



## RustyTheGeek (Mar 17, 2016)

I think Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax, et al all mean different things to different people. They all market to certain target buyers and offer a different product and system to the market.

My personal impression is that Canon/Nikon have been consistent for decades in marketing two product lines to both pros and consumers respectively and cater to both in a different way. Both companies enjoy a long tradition of loyal customers and decent service to both. Over the past decade, I think Canon has pulled ahead in all areas but that doesn't mean there aren't still a lot of Nikon shooters out there.

The rest of the camera market is more complicated to discuss and fragmented. Various levels of everything. For the retail consumer, comparing and choosing is a big challenge. For the experienced pro, I think the Matt Granger video is a good example of what most pros probably think.

For quite a while, I have considered buying a Pentax for its rugged weatherproof design and interesting feature set. But this would mean having to buy more lenses, flash, etc. Building another system. (At least Sony can mount the EF lenses.) While I would love to play with the Pentax (or maybe the Sony), I honestly don't have the time or need to store even MORE gear. But I digress...

The point is that I have a winner with Canon. No camera or company is perfect but I am very glad that Canon takes their time and releases gear that is reliable and works. It may not be as cutting edge as Sony but I think that is probably a good thing. The key thing is that the Canon images are great and consistent. I don't feel like a beta tester for Canon when they finally release a new product. (At least as far as bodies and lenses are concerned.) And if things do go wrong, I can count on their service which is getting pretty rare these days in this throw away world we now live in.


----------



## kaswindell (Mar 17, 2016)

I am one of those who have had extremely good experiences with Canon cameras and lenses for many, many years. And when I have on rare occasion needed service it was top rate. Why would anyone switch to a second-rate camera manufacturer like Sony if Canon has never let you down?


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Mar 17, 2016)

MrFotoFool said:


> This is the main (perhaps only) reason I chose Canon over Nikon about 16 years ago when I wanted to switch to an autofocus (film) system. I had been using Pentax K1000. I was leaning towards a newly released Nikon model, I think it was N90S, so I filled in a photo magazine reply card to Nikon for information. Several weeks, no information arrived. So I called their 800 number, request appropriate brochures, they took my address, several weeks nothing arrived. I thought if they cannot even respond to a potential new user who wants to buy their equipment, they must have terrible service and I do not want to deal with them.
> 
> So I called Canon 800 number and in less than a week several brochures were in my mailbox. Based on that experience I bought the Canon Elan2e (and eventually a second one) which were my main cameras for about a decade.
> 
> Another important factor (that has nothing to do with sensors, dynamic range, etc) is overall feel and ease of use. I taught camera classes at a local photo lab and the layout of Nikon bodies is far less intuitive than Canon bodies. Even my co instructor who is a Nikon user himself often had a hard time finding how to change functions on Nikons.


 I had a Pentax K-1000 and then moved to an Elan IIe as well. The AF and motor drive were nice, but man, talk about a huge downgrade in viewfinder. Pentax K1000 was the best viewfinder I have ever used to this day.


----------



## KeithBreazeal (Mar 17, 2016)

Customer service does make or break a company. I went to a seminar all about this, the speaker made the point how important good customer service was to the return customer. With excellent customer service, expect a 87% return rate and positive word of mouth bringing in new customers.
I have used my Canon Gold service three times. My old 50D- a new shutter was only $136. I broke my 10-22 into many pieces. All but the front lens group was replaced- $59.(!!!!!) The 100-400L had a sticking lock ring- estimate $234. *Here's where it gets good*. Canon found the sticking wasn't the main issue. They had to tear it down completely and replace the entire inner barrel assembly. Canon stuck with the original estimate! When I got it back, the lens was like brand new and all the elements had been cleaned. 
*That is customer service*! 



Canon 10-22mm Lens- forced disassembly by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr


----------



## rshachar (Mar 22, 2016)

+1 on the topic and honesty by Matt.
It does not matter whether it is a built-in over or a 1Dx Mark II, it will rise or fall on the level of customer service.
And the more equipment/stuff you have, the more you'll be contacting service.


----------



## barracuda (Mar 22, 2016)

About a year ago, I sent my 70-200mm 2.8 IS in to Canon for a free cleaning as a member of CPS Gold. On the form I mentioned that the IS and AF switches on the lens get bumped out of position fairly easily and asked if there was something they could do. When the lens was returned about a week later (door to door), it included a note from a technician that said he replaced the entire panel for free even though it was outside of the scope of the free cleaning. The lens felt like new again! Now that's customer service!


----------



## typer1998 (Mar 23, 2016)

I agree. Customer service is an often overlooked criteria when choosing a camera system.
Customer service is a difficult thing to quantify like FPS, Megapixels, Dynamic Range, or AF points.

In the early 90's I had several problems with Nikon service in Torrance, Ca. They wouldn't fix an aperture
ring that was clearly too tight. In those days you would manually adjust the aperture with the ring on the lens.
This is in the days before Yelp and the internet in general. I had to go back and forth and threaten them before
Nikon finally fixed it. This left a real bad taste in my mouth.

In 2006, I bought a Sony PSP from the Sony Store in SF and it had two bad pixels. I took it
back the same day and the sales person wouldn't exchange it for a new one or refund
my money. I told him and his manager I'd never buy a Sony product again and the
manager just said, "that's store policy." So I told him my policy will be to never buy a Sony product. Ever.

In 2010 I dropped my 2 month old Canon t2i. It hit some rocks and busted open. 
I kept shooting with it but there was a line throughout every shot. 
I sent it in to Canon and I got it back within 2 weeks. Fixed. Free. Wow. I've been shooting Canon ever since.
I've bought 8 Canon bodies and 10 lenses since getting my t2i back.
Of course this isn't the only reason I've bought so many Canon products but to have a fast and generous
repair facility makes me confident that I'll always have working equipment when I need it. Moreover, it
creates brand loyalty. Other companies should learn from this. Since the t2i I haven't had any reason to
send in any of my Canon equipment in for repair.


----------



## RustyTheGeek (Mar 23, 2016)

It's a pretty simple plan... make a high quality product that works well and people want. Then you don't have to fix it as often but when you do, fix it right with a smile and keep that customer (happy) that you worked so hard to get selling the quality product in the first place. Oh... and a bonus is that a happy customer will bring other customers to you and sell for you.


----------

