# Here are the Results From Our Poll Regarding Camera Innovation Perception at Canon



## Canon Rumors Guy (Feb 19, 2018)

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<p>Last week <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/heres-why-canon-doesnt-need-to-innovate-but-it-does/">we posted a bit of an opinion piece</a> based off an <a href="https://fstoppers.com/originals/heres-why-canon-does-not-need-innovate-201130">article at Fstoppers</a> about perceived innovation at Canon when it comes to camera design and development.</p>
<p>We took an unscientific poll to see what our readers thought about Canon’s place in the market, and these are the results</p>
<p>[socialpoll id=”2487498″ path=”/polls/2487498″ fif=”false” width=”728″]</p>
<p>This being an enthusiasts site, I don’t think anyone will be too shocked by the results. I was a little surprised about the DSLR results, as the forum discussion seemed to be pretty forgiving when it came to that segment. The mirrorless and compact results? I don’t think those results will surprise anyone.</p>
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## nonac (Feb 19, 2018)

Sad, but true. I have been using Canon cameras exclusively since I picked up my first camera (AE-1) in 1979-80ish. i have been an ambassador for the brand, recommending them to many for years. However, of late, it is becoming harder and harder to do. They may be the top seller out there, but they are not the top innovator. I make part of my living with a camera and I need a brand that keeps up. When you watch another company like Sony, who hasn't been making cameras near as long as Canon, bring some amazing cameras to market, you start to lose confidence in what you own. I know that Sony cameras are rough around the edges and I am not planning to "jump ship" anytime soon, but they appear to be listening to consumers and progressively getting better. Look how far they have come in such a short period. Eventually they will be there, and Canon, at it's current pace sitting on it's hands, will start to feel it, more so with those just entering the market that have little invested in bodies or glass. Additionally, for working professionals, they can't continue with a brand when their competitors are providing better images to publishers with other brands. They will switch or be out of work. Canon, you need to wake up, selling on name alone will not always work.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 19, 2018)

nonac said:


> However, of late, it is becoming harder and harder to do. They may be the top seller out there, but they are not the top innovator.



Why are they the top seller? Obviously, what to recommend is your choice. Personally, I find that most people who ask me for a brand+product recommendation are new to ILCs. I generally recommend something affordable (they may not make this a lifelong hobby), user-friendly (if they have to RTFM, it's not), and reliable. I tend not to recommend products that are 'rough around the edges', at least not to people that I like.  Affordable, user-friendly, reliable...Canon has those covered. From an image-making standpoint, there's really nothing to differentiate among all current brands for the vast majority of users and use cases. 




nonac said:


> Canon, you need to wake up, selling on name alone will not always work.



Oh, so most buyers choose Canon because of the brand name? How do you know that? How many of the *~5 million* people who bought a Canon ILC last year did you ask about their motivation?


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## unfocused (Feb 19, 2018)

nonac said:


> ...for working professionals, they can't continue with a brand when their competitors are providing better images to publishers with other brands. They will switch or be out of work...



You get first prize...for hyperbole. 

Sorry, but that's just a ridiculous statement. Tech geeks obsess over features. But professionals value reliability, consistency, durability and predictability. Most professionals readily admit that the camera brand has little to nothing to do with the quality of images. I'd love to know where you got the idea that professional photographers using Canon gear are delivering inferior work.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 19, 2018)

unfocused said:


> nonac said:
> 
> 
> > ...for working professionals, they can't continue with a brand when their competitors are providing better images to publishers with other brands. They will switch or be out of work...
> ...



The DR, man...the DR. Where have you been for the past few years? All those poor Canon photographers out of work, how sad.


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## Don Haines (Feb 19, 2018)

When you consider that the vast majority of DSLR (and mirrorless) owners leave their camera in the full AUTO mode, that very few have more than 2 lenses, that they don't know about colour science and DR, and that they just don't care.... coupled with the fact that this site targets the fanatics/enthusiasts/geeks and it's members are not representative of the general public (for any brand), any such poll is at best misleading.....

This is like asking race car drivers to design a family mini-van and then listening to them when they want it to do 300Kph in the straights..... or even worse, TURN RIGHT!!!!!


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## RayValdez360 (Feb 19, 2018)

unfocused said:


> nonac said:
> 
> 
> > ...for working professionals, they can't continue with a brand when their competitors are providing better images to publishers with other brands. They will switch or be out of work...
> ...


 that's is true but some features add to convenience (such as 60p 4k, decent codecs, focus peaking, flip scenes etc). As a professional we want to be as comfortable as possible when doing our jobs but also have reliability. Using a lot of cameras for different things or missing function because a particular camera cant do it can make life a bit harder.


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## Talys (Feb 19, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> When you consider that the vast majority of DSLR (and mirrorless) owners leave their camera in the full AUTO mode, that very few have more than 2 lenses, ...



Is that true?

If so, that's terrible... they'd be better served with a non-ILC with a built-in superzoom, if they need reach, or a good smartphone if they don't.


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## romarja (Feb 19, 2018)

Hello everyone, 

Funny thing is that everyday Canon is making new patents but, when will we be able to see it in a new camera? 
Canon is not working properly. Giving us technology litlle by a little and in a high price.
For example, Canon 6d mark II, 5-6 years waiting for making a camera with worst RD than the previous Canon 6d.
At less, they should keep the same quality with some more tecnology .
Canon 5d mark IV focus system coming from canon 80D I think. I´m waiting Canon some day can surprise me. 
I started with a NIkon Fm2 and changed to Canon 40d because I thought it was better. Now I have a Canon 6d and some good L lens where Canon for me is a leader, but I am still disappointed and wondering what are making Canon engineers all these past years.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 19, 2018)

I think alot of canon's innovations get overlooked because they never show up on the spec sheet.

the 5DsR has an excellent ability to be tripod mounted with additional reinforcement to the mount and also the tripod mount, and a new shutter assembly. No shutter shock or other problems from a high resolution camera.

the M5 is possibly the most ergonomic mirrorless camera out there with a combination of direct control dials and DIAL FUNC dial offering expansion over a normal fiddly as f.. mirrorless. Not mention a super configurable AF area on the LCD.

No one has been able to match DPAF to date, and still some mirrorless suffer from IQ degeneration across the lines where the PDAF sensors are located if the image is pushed.

Their UI for liveview / mirrorless is one of the best out there, beating everyone except perhaps Panasonic for ease of use, and smartphone like behavior.

However, they aren't catering to the video whiners and the spec sheet / DXO watchers that base everything on what they can't hold, touch or feel, just what they read about.

As far as powershots, outside of providing 4K, they have the most complete lineup of 1" camera bodies of any manufacturer - from the super small G9X II to the larger superzoom G3X.


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## stevelee (Feb 19, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> When you consider that the vast majority of DSLR (and mirrorless) owners leave their camera in the full AUTO mode, that very few have more than 2 lenses, that they don't know about colour science and DR, and that they just don't care.... coupled with the fact that this site targets the fanatics/enthusiasts/geeks and it's members are not representative of the general public (for any brand), any such poll is at best misleading.....



One of the pleasant surprises of the 6D2 is how well the auto settings work in such a wide variety of situations. I don't do the A+ mode, which I gather is what you mean by full AUTO, but in P mode I usually have everything set on auto, and the camera makes really good decisions for the body and the lens. I'm shooting RAW, so some of the settings are not baked into the file, but I need only tweak them a bit, for my tastes, most of the time. I can see why folks would be happy with results from A+ mode for their JPEGs.

And even though I'm lazy most of the time and am not aiming beyond "good enough," I'm still glad to have all the manual controls when I feel a need for or interest in using them. I realize that I am not typical of the general public, and even less so of the denizens of this board.


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## crashpc (Feb 19, 2018)

rrcphoto: You're right about that one. But those guys doing camera menu, outer design, lenses, are not the same guys doing sensors, obviously. There are good sides and bad sides of their job. M system has not good choice of lenses for enthusiasts, I always envy Sony for their sensors. I jumped the ship and got back, finding out that sensor alone is not everything, but we have the right for some expectations from nr1. manufacturer an LEADER, how they call themselves. They're lacking with this one for years, and it will be very hard to keep up with smaller sensors (APS-C) and dual pixels (split diodes. Microlenses cannot fully offset this "deficiency"). That's like 1/3 stops already, before any lack in technology.


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## Don Haines (Feb 19, 2018)

Talys said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > When you consider that the vast majority of DSLR (and mirrorless) owners leave their camera in the full AUTO mode, that very few have more than 2 lenses, ...
> ...



There are more birders in my camera club with superzooms than with DSLRs......

And sadly, yes, most people use automatic modes.... on the plus side, the auto modes are very capable


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## Don Haines (Feb 19, 2018)

stevelee said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > When you consider that the vast majority of DSLR (and mirrorless) owners leave their camera in the full AUTO mode, that very few have more than 2 lenses, that they don't know about colour science and DR, and that they just don't care.... coupled with the fact that this site targets the fanatics/enthusiasts/geeks and it's members are not representative of the general public (for any brand), any such poll is at best misleading.....
> ...



I will probably get roasted by the forum members for saying this, but most of the time the full auto mode will do as good of a job as most of us will. It’s the more difficult situations where manual intervention (including semi auto modes) where our skills shine......


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## dak723 (Feb 19, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> stevelee said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



Kinda funny, but true of course. When I got my first SLR - The Olympus OM-1 - and it had a built in (very simple) light meter, The "photography elite" said, "Oh, no, If you are a real photographer, you need a real light meter." Guess what...you didn't. When I got my first Canon rebel with AF, it was, "Oh no, you need to use manual focus if you want to be a real photographer." Guess what...you didn't. As the quality of zoom lenses improved and all I owned was two zooms to cover all my needed focal distances, it was, "Oh, no, you still need primes to be a real photographer." Guess what...you didn't. Auto mode...yes, there are plenty of photographs taken by "experts" that could be improved if they used it - but no, you can't be a real photographer.... ;D


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## scyrene (Feb 19, 2018)

nonac said:


> I make part of my living with a camera and I need a brand that keeps up.



What does this actually mean? When a new camera model is launched (by any company), your current gear no longer produces usable images??

With the greatest of respect, I am immediately suspicious of anyone who claims to have been taking photographs for decades but has such a short-termist, narrow perspective. Surely after decades, one becomes more equivocal about innovation?


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## scyrene (Feb 19, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> stevelee said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



It shouldn't be controversial! Auto modes are great, and nobody should be embarrassed to use them. I only use manual because of habit, and because I got burned a bit when starting out, when I didn't understand why some shots were good and some sucked, because the camera changed the settings between shots (it was the 300D, and no doubt auto modes have improved a lot since then!). But nobody should consider 'manual only' as a badge of honour.


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## stevelee (Feb 19, 2018)

The point of wisdom is know what you want or need to control or override.

Obviously, most of us are not going to want to take shots of a waterfall at 1/4000 sec. or take head-and-shoulders portraits at f/16 no matter how bright the light is. And if and when we might for some special reason, we know how to do that, too.

And even if you want to set both aperture and shutter speed, you may well still use Auto ISO a lot of the time.

I'd rather concentrate on composition and timing of shots rather than twisting dials needlessly. I'd also like to get better at twisting the dials when needed, and I admit that takes practice.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 19, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> I will probably get roasted by the forum members for saying this, but most of the time the full auto mode will do as good of a job as most of us will.



My dSLR doesn't have a full auto mode. :'(


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## pwp (Feb 19, 2018)

unfocused said:


> nonac said:
> 
> 
> > ...for working professionals, they can't continue with a brand when their competitors are providing better images to publishers with other brands. They will switch or be out of work...
> ...


Exactly. I stopped fussing over features minutia a long time ago. The quality of the images has little to do with the piece of hardware in your hands, it's the brain driven creativity and experience that delivers the keepers.

-pw


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## scyrene (Feb 19, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > I will probably get roasted by the forum members for saying this, but most of the time the full auto mode will do as good of a job as most of us will.
> ...



Showoff ;P


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## unfocused (Feb 20, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> I will probably get roasted by the forum members for saying this, but most of the time the full auto mode will do as good of a job as most of us will. It’s the more difficult situations where manual intervention (including semi auto modes) where our skills shine......



There is a reason why the "P" stands for Professional.


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## 3dit0r (Feb 20, 2018)

I too was surprised when I voted that the DSLR vote was so high, I can’t see that Canon are far behind on that; in which area? If you watch, e.g., Dustin Abbot’s latest video series comparing the 5D mark IV to the Sony A7riii, what’s striking is how incredibly evenly matched they are overall, mildly beating each other in certain areas, but overall, about equal.

Of course, the A7riii is a mirrorless camera, which brings me to the mirrorless innovation vote score. Think about that above Dustin Abbot video comparison in that context and it shows a worrying lack of innovation from Canon on that front - Sony’s mirrorless tech is already head to head with one of Canon’s top DSLRs, and bests it in some ways. The A9 goes head to head with the 1Dx mark II and bests it in some ways. Can Canon claim it has a mirrorless which can compete with its own top DSLRs? This is where the real lack of innovation resides.

To me, areas where Canon lack innovation compared to other brands include: mirrorless tech in general, IBIS, perhaps a slight improvement in DR (but this is over exaggerated on the current generation, I think).

OTOH, DPAF still rules for video AF and their touch screen control on the 5Dmkiv is the best I’ve experienced. Ergonomics are fantastic (weight could be shaved a little though) and menu system is excellent. Lens choice is second to none and colour science is still probably the best in the industry.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 20, 2018)

3dit0r said:


> Can Canon claim it has a mirrorless which can compete with its own top DSLRs? This is where the real lack of innovation resides.



'Top dSLRs' are generally FF, and Canon doesn't yet offer a FF MILC. You are suggesting that they can't develop a competitive FF MILC, based on what? What we do know is that Canon can develop a very competitive APS-C MILC, at least in the minds of buyers.


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## Don Haines (Feb 20, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> 3dit0r said:
> 
> 
> > Can Canon claim it has a mirrorless which can compete with its own top DSLRs? This is where the real lack of innovation resides.
> ...



The M series is (obviously) Canon's into the world of mirrorless DSLR cameras. It is a crop camera, it is very successful, and it is a learning camera. By that, I mean that Canon, being a conservative company, is using the M series to learn about what sells and what does not, and how the various features/software works in the real world.

When (not if, WHEN) they come out with a FF camera, they should be able to hit the ground running. I would expect it to be competing with the 5D series, possibly the replacement to the 5DS.... However you look at it, the safe bet is that they will not come out with a FF mirrorless camera until it is BETTER than the mirrored equivalents....

There is a difference between lack of innovation and rushing in before you are ready. This is particularly true when you are dealing with a company that values reliability and stability more than others in the industry.....


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## 9VIII (Feb 20, 2018)

nonac said:


> ...appear to be listening to consumers and progressively getting better...



It's like a novice athlete, you see massive performance gains in your first year when you start from nothing, then most people give up once the easy gains are gone.


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## Neil1000 (Feb 20, 2018)

what if Canon innovation is so poor it promotes camera sales? eg 1 buys canon, 1 buys Nikon,, 1 buys Sony, 1 buys Fuji and one buys Olympus , 5 buys BUT Canon guy is frustrated with poor innovation and buys another and then another new camera . Suddenly Canon has majority market share from poor innovation with no new buyers in the system.

Just thinking aloud = no data


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## Ozarker (Feb 21, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > I will probably get roasted by the forum members for saying this, but most of the time the full auto mode will do as good of a job as most of us will.
> ...



Neither does my LWRC.  Some will get the reference. Some won't.


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## Talys (Feb 21, 2018)

Neil1000 said:


> what if Canon innovation is so poor it promotes camera sales? eg 1 buys canon, 1 buys Nikon,, 1 buys Sony, 1 buys Fuji and one buys Olympus , 5 buys BUT Canon guy is frustrated with poor innovation and buys another and then another new camera . Suddenly Canon has majority market share from poor innovation with no new buyers in the system.
> 
> Just thinking aloud = no data



So, the hypothesis is that Canon customers are so frustrated with Canon products, _that they buy three times as much hoping for a different result?_

That seems like a bit of a stretch  More so, because it's Canon, and Canon has relatively slow release cycles. I mean, if you were a 7D or a 5D or 1D shooter, you'd have to buy 3 of the same camera, hoping the next one was magically better  

I'd actually argue that this is more likely with Sony, than Canon.

The only way it would work with Canon is someone buys an 80D, goes oh shoot, buys a 5D, goes oh shoot, and then buys a 1DX. I kinda doubt it 8)

Where it DOES happen though is Canon glass. I've seen a whole lot of people who genuinely want to improve their photography (as a hobby) go through a cycle of buying progressively better lenses, and by the time they're "finished", they own everything from the $50 kit lens to a full set of 2.8 zooms and a handful of L primes -- and everything in between.


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## Ozarker (Feb 21, 2018)

Talys said:


> Neil1000 said:
> 
> 
> > what if Canon innovation is so poor it promotes camera sales? eg 1 buys canon, 1 buys Nikon,, 1 buys Sony, 1 buys Fuji and one buys Olympus , 5 buys BUT Canon guy is frustrated with poor innovation and buys another and then another new camera . Suddenly Canon has majority market share from poor innovation with no new buyers in the system.
> ...



I bought a T5i and went, "Oh shoot!" Then bought a 70D six months later and said, "Oh shoot!" At the same time I was buying EFs lenses left and right. Then I said, "Oh shoot! After spending all this money I could have already had my dream camera, the 5D Mark III. So I said, "Oh shoot!" and gave away almost all of that, bought my 5D Mark III and have been happy since.

I think it is the nature of this hobby. I'm just wondering how Talys knows me. Scary.


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## Talys (Feb 21, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I think it is the nature of this hobby. I'm just wondering how Talys knows me. Scary.



hahahahaha! 8)

touché!

In hindsight, I regret buying boatloads of cheap EF lenses from Canon and almost every third party vendor that mostly made their way into Christmas presents (along with a T5i, LOL).

I bought a 70D also, but still have and use it (though only in my basement studio). It takes amazing shots, and because I "grew up" on crop bodies, I'm more used to them in terms of picking the right lens to get the perspective/composition that I'm looking for than I am with full frame. I've only recently taken that dive with 6D2, which I'm very happy with.

I'm slowly getting there though, and I have no doubt that at some point I'll be mostly FF.


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## 9VIII (Feb 21, 2018)

Talys said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > I think it is the nature of this hobby. I'm just wondering how Talys knows me. Scary.
> ...



I think this just goes to show how different people can be.
I bought an 1100D, kept reading about how awesome Full Frame is, bought a used 5D2, then traded it away after less than a year.
For my purposes the cheapest body that Canon has ever made is still effectively superior, that summer when I had both I just kept leaving the 5D2 at home and I couldn’t stand to think about how much I wasn’t using it.
My biggest regret is not getting a 6D instead of the 5D2, given that it’s lighter and smaller (and it has wi-fi), I may have been perfectly content with a 6D.


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## dak723 (Feb 21, 2018)

9VIII said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > CanonFanBoy said:
> ...



What camera works best for an individual depends on so many factors - perhaps most importantly - what do you shoot and how do you view (or what size do you print) your photos.

The 6D is a great camera and I had one for about 4 years. You can probably pick on up for a good price now. As for me, I found that a crop camera (the M5) gave me results that were just as good for a cheaper price and more importantly - much reduced size and weight. I shoot in daylight and outdoors and rarely print over 8 x 10 inches. The same shots taken with my 6D and my M5 were indistinguishable from one another, so the 6D (somewhat regrettably) was sold on Ebay and the M5 is now my primary camera. If I shot a lot indoors and low light - and printed larger - The 6D would definitely be my choice.


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## Talys (Feb 21, 2018)

dak723 said:


> What camera works best for an individual depends on so many factors - perhaps most importantly - what do you shoot and how do you view (or what size do you print) your photos.
> 
> The 6D is a great camera and I had one for about 4 years. You can probably pick on up for a good price now. As for me, I found that a crop camera (the M5) gave me results that were just as good for a cheaper price and more importantly - much reduced size and weight. I shoot in daylight and outdoors and rarely print over 8 x 10 inches. The same shots taken with my 6D and my M5 were indistinguishable from one another, so the 6D (somewhat regrettably) was sold on Ebay and the M5 is now my primary camera. If I shot a lot indoors and low light - and printed larger - The 6D would definitely be my choice.



That's an excellent point.

Until I became more interested in birds in flight, full frame was just not a big deal. Even though higher ISO was inferior on crop, it was something I rarely encountered because I'd augment light; I don't think I shot over ISO 640 for years. But you can't do that out in the wild, or at least not very easily  So, to get the 1/2000 - 4000 shutter speeds, especially in good but non-ideal conditions, I really wanted a full frame camera, but held off until Canon popped a flippy screen model (not that I need it for birds; for other purposes).

Frankly, the 6D2 is very nearly everything I want from a camera, just like the 100-400LII is very nearly everything I want from a birding lens. It would be nice to have more resolution, because that would allow shooting subjects a little further away on a comfortable, handheld lens.

Eventually, when I get a super tele, I would like 2 FF bodies, so that I set up at a location, and have one on a gimbal and one that I shoot handheld. Or, if the 7D3 is truly amazing in ability to resolve ISOs up to 3200, perhaps that would be a consideration.

But at the end of the day, I'm at the point in equipment where I will not get visibly better shots out of a better sensor. Mostly, that's going to require better composition/lighting/direction for one type of photography, and better field skills for the other. And more time for photography, which no amount of gear can give me


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## Don Haines (Feb 22, 2018)

Apparently Canon has listened, and released the 4000D!


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 22, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Apparently Canon has listened, and released the 4000D!



With a seriously innovative 18 MP sensor! ;D


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## Ozarker (Feb 24, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently Canon has listened, and released the 4000D!
> ...



Yes. It would have been more innovative had they listed it as an XVIII MP sensor.


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