# National Park Advice Needed



## ray5 (Aug 5, 2015)

Hi,
I am firming up my plans to Southern UT and Northern AZ this fall. Due to the rush I am having to change my plans around a bit. On my way from Salt Lake City to Page,AZ i will have about a day and half. Wondering what I could see during that time. I will be passing Zion and Bryce canyons which were not on my original plans, at least this time. Would you recommend doing one of those parks, is it enough time? Or do you have any other suggestions? Thanks,
Ray


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## Zen (Aug 5, 2015)

Both are spectacular, especially Bryce's Hoo-doos. They are both very much worth the time, or even an extra trip. Don't forget your polarizer . . .

Happy shooting.

Zen


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## ray5 (Aug 5, 2015)

This time I have only a day and a half. So have to be content with that. Is that enough for one park? And if yes could you recommend good photographic spots? This trip is entirely a photo trip. Thx


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## unfocused (Aug 6, 2015)

We did a weeklong trip to the area last fall. Stayed outside of Zion. Visited Zion, Bryce, North Rim of the Grand Canyon and I drove over one afternoon/evening to Cedar Breaks National Monument.

Here are a few facts of life.

You cannot drive into the main park areas of west Zion. You must stop just outside the park at the visitors area and take a bus in. Count on a full day just getting into the park, taking one or two hiking trails and getting back out.

You can drive West to East (or East to West) through the park and see the East Zion area, which geologically is very different from the main portion of the park. Very beautiful and interesting things there, but it is not the classic Zion experience. It is a two-lane road and traffic can be back up for quite a distance at the tunnel that separates east and west Zion. Expect to burn a lot of your day driving.

Bryce also does not allow private vehicles inside the park, but it is much less time consuming to catch a bus and ride to the Hoodoos in Bryce than to the main portions of Zion. You can do Bryce in a day. Zion not so much.

The North Rim of the Grand Canyon is much less visited than the South Rim. You won't find the classic Grand Canyon scenes that you may be used to, but it is still very beautiful. It is much higher than the South Rim and thus much cooler in the fall. In fact, it shuts down around Oct. 1 and snow can come anytime in the fall. Unless you want to hike part way down the Canyon, a visit to the North Rim won't take a lot of time (other than drive time) as all you can do is look out over the Canyon and gawk and then eat at the lodge. 

One of the most delightful things I did while there was visit Cedar Breaks. It is pretty much in the middle of nowhere and you are likely to find that you are sharing the overlooks with tens of people, rather than hundreds. I timed my visit to be there in late afternoon and stayed until sunset. I got my best pictures there. Be aware though, it is much higher elevation than Bryce or Zion. I made the mistake of going in shorts and shirtsleeves and man, was it cold! 

It is out of the way though, which is why so few people visit it. The Hoodoos there are similar to Bryce and Bryce is easier to get to.

My suggestion for a short trip would be to head for Bryce for the most bang for your time.


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## scottkinfw (Aug 6, 2015)

Hey Ray, congrats, you are in for a great trip!

Don't forget to to keep an eye out during the drive, the scenery is beautiful too.

I have been to all of the places. Here are some ideas for you.

For Page AZ, you will love Antelope Canyon. Bring a sturdy tripod and be patient. You will get some great shots, but there tends to be a lot of traffic. I was shooting around 30 second exposures.

Another option for you in Page is to look up Charlie, with overland tours. OOPS! I just went to the site and they no longer offer tours. You may still want to contact him however.

While in Page, see if you can get to Canyon X. When I went with Charlie about a year and a half ago, he lead private tours with only 4 total serious photogs. No crowds, but canyon X isn't as great as Antelope. Both are on Navajo Nation land, and you will need to get a photo license ~ $20.

You wlll want to see horseshoe bend, and have a uwa lens <= 14mm to get the whole river in (Samyang 14 mm 2.8 is a great cheap lens if you don't have one). Get up early and find the Tee Pees. Before the sun comes up and during golden hour, they are very photogenic, and in the distance, the steam fired power plant is an excellent subject- especially if it is cold- the steam is very dramatic. By the way, check the weather, it gets mighty cold up there.

Try to find waterhole Canyon, and an area called "the fins". You will see some pics on Charlie's site. These are awesome to walk around and photograph. I agree that you will do well to have a polarizer, and these open areas are better during golden hour. Plan to be in Antelope canyon during harsh mid-day sun since it won't be an issue while in slot canyons.

I liked Brice Canyon. There are about 10 or so "amphatheaters", but only the first 4 or so are really spectacular. These are imho best shot during golden hours. This is especially so when the sun first clears the horizon because the sun rays will bounce off of walls and give even lighting. I did not think that this was as good as Antelope Canyon.

Zion is awesome, and if you are going from Zion to Page, the road is scenic and you may want to stop in areas to get some landscapes. I ventured out and stumbled into a small heard of Prong Horns- what a treat.

If you are going to Zion, it is HUGE. They have a slot canyon with a stream running through it. I missed it but be sure that you find it and get pics there.

I went to both rims of Grand Canyon. The North rim is not only less visited and more remote, it closes in the fall due to impassable roads etc. Check the site to be sure you are not closed out. You can catch a mule ride down the Canyon. If you do, bring a bandana to wear like an outlaw, as the dust is bad on the trip. You may want to wet it to filter the air.

For my money, I would recommend Zions slot canyon, and Antelope along with the other sites in the area. Remember that your best shots will be golden hour, and during the day, hit the slots.

Don't forget to look up at the sky at night. You will see great heavenly bodies, The Milky Way, and lots of shooting stars. When I was there it was like fireworks. Again perfect for a fast uwa lens on a sturdy tripod.

Have a great trip.

sek



ray5 said:


> Hi,
> I am firming up my plans to Southern UT and Northern AZ this fall. Due to the rush I am having to change my plans around a bit. On my way from Salt Lake City to Page,AZ i will have about a day and half. Wondering what I could see during that time. I will be passing Zion and Bryce canyons which were not on my original plans, at least this time. Would you recommend doing one of those parks, is it enough time? Or do you have any other suggestions? Thanks,
> Ray


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## timmy_650 (Aug 6, 2015)

If you are rushed on time. Get to Bryce before sunrise and start the worlds best 2 miles hike. I would start by Thors Hammer. If you are really rushed on time just shoot around there and hike just a little but I would suggest doing the whole 2-3 miles hike. Then leave and head to zions and you should be able to make it before sunset and the little car bridge is a good easy place to take picture. It is like a 2-3 hour drive so it doesn't too much out of your day. 

What time of year are you headed there? depending on the time of year will change if you can drive your car or have to take the bus.


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## ray5 (Aug 6, 2015)

Thanks a lot for the great suggestions.
Headed there Sept 11-18th. Antelope Canyons, Monument Valley, Arches and Canyonlands.
It all started with just Antelope canyons and then crept up on me. Because my desired days and photo tour times were booked I had to flex and now have these two days or so before I get to Page rather than after. And hence the thought about Bryce/Zion on the way there. While I am in Page, in between the Upper and Lower Tours I will be shooting Horseshoe Bend at sunset and if I still have some energy might do the night tour of the Upper Canyon. Has anyone ever done it? It is pricey but sounds exciting and different.
Thor's Hammer is a good suggestion. We will be in an RV so though we will have flexibility and moving when we want but might be limited of where we can go and park.
I understand that each of these areas can take weeks to explore but am limited by time but also don't want to just park and shoot and run! So want to be reasonable and enjoy them and not just from behind the camera.
Thanks once again and please keep your suggestions coming.


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## JPAZ (Aug 6, 2015)

Sounds like a great trip although lots of driving for that time allotted.

Please remember it can be very hot during the day so be prepared. And, it will still be our "monsoon" season so flash floods in any washes or slot canyons can occur. If any storm clouds or lightning, even a distance away, get out of the washes quickly.

Sounds like a great time with lots of ideal photo opportunities. Post some stuff when you get back.


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## ray5 (Aug 6, 2015)

Will do, Thx


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## timmy_650 (Aug 7, 2015)

So if you go to Bryce and then you go to Zion. Know if you drive the most direct route and don't come in through springville. There is a tunnel which I believe you can get though but I think you just have to pay money and close down the tunnel. I don't really know how it works bc I have never done it. 
Bryce you can see a lot of it in one day, I think i like it better than Zions for a short trip. Zion is great and have a lot to see but you have to work a lot more for it. I also think you can easily do Canyonland in one day too.


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## unfocused (Aug 7, 2015)

timmy_650 said:


> ...There is a tunnel which I believe you can get though but I think you just have to pay money and close down the tunnel...



I was not aware that the OP was driving an RV until his later post. There are two tunnels in east Zion. One is too short for an RV to drive through without driving down the middle. They shut down the tunnel when an RV comes, wait for the tunnel to clear and then send the RV through driving down the middle of the road. During the middle of the day, this can cause quite a few delays as they have to do this for every RV.


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## kaihp (Aug 7, 2015)

ray5 said:


> While I am in Page, in between the Upper and Lower Tours I will be shooting Horseshoe Bend at sunset


If you shoot at sunset, you'll be shooting into the sun. I did a reconnaissance tour around sunset one day and then went back before dawn the next morning to shoot. The light changes due to the rising sun, so there are amble opportunity to keep shooting for several hours. I think I shot from around 7am to 10.30am.


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## Schmave (Aug 7, 2015)

kaihp said:


> ray5 said:
> 
> 
> > While I am in Page, in between the Upper and Lower Tours I will be shooting Horseshoe Bend at sunset
> ...



I was in Page in May this year and went to Horseshoe Bend early in the morning one day (though just after sunrise) and thought the lighting was terrible. Once the sun comes up and directly hits the top of the canyon it isn't really worth it to take any photos. The top will be in bright sun and the bottom will be in dark shadow. Now, if you were to get there before the sun came up, but when it was starting to get light outside the lighting could be good but you'll have to get there really early.

There was another guy who was staying at the bed & breakfast I was staying at and he had gone the previous day during sunset. He only had some phone pics but the lighting looked far better than in the morning when I was there. You may have to wait until the sun goes down below the horizon to get the good light but it will be there. If you have any cloud cover it should be even better.

Of course you could always go really early before sunrise and then also go back at sunset. It's a short enough hike.


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## ray5 (Aug 8, 2015)

Hmmm...
I saw an article where the author took the trouble of shooting the Horseshoe Bend at various times the same day. It gave me the sense that predawn would be better than after the sun rises and sunset would be nice if there were clouds and right at the time when the sun goes at/below the horizon. Here is the link:
http://horseshoebend.com/brian-klimowski-photography-tips-from-the-pros/

For me I might have the opportunity to do both. I certainly have planned a sunset time but after reading your post and seeing this article am trying to see if I can get there early enough for a sunrise time as well. Does anyone know if there is parking for a mid size RV at the Horseshoe bend parking lot?


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## Schmave (Aug 8, 2015)

Interesting article on the different times of day. I kind of like some of the afternoon shots he has.

There is room for an RV in the parking lot as long as it isn't full. In the morning you won't have any problems, but you may later in the day. It probably also depends on the day of the week. It's pretty close to town though so even if you drove out there and couldn't get parking it wouldn't be a major loss.


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## ray5 (Aug 8, 2015)

Yes I thought so too. Particularly the mid afternoon shot. I think there were clouds and whether he used ND filters in not clear but I do like that shot. I can see what you meant by when the sun is just rising and the difference in light and why you didn't like it. It would be nice to have some clouds to diffuse the light and if there are clouds around sunset it would be awesome! 
Since I will be driving down from Bryce/Zion I might decide to just park there for convenience for the pre dawn shot before my Upper Antelope Photo tour at 1030. 
Thx


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## ray5 (Aug 8, 2015)

Other questions:
My current plan is NOT to change lenses while in the Antelope Canyon and hence mount my EF 16-35 F/4L on to my 5D MKIII and the tripod. I plan on renting another 5D MKIII for backup and for handheld shots but wasn't sure which lens to mount on it in the Antelope Canyon, 24-70 F/2.8L II or the 70-200 F/2.8L II?
Are there good choices? Which one would you recommend? I have all three so won't have to rent. 
Should I bother taking my photo backpack in the canyon? Is there enough room? Or should I just take my camera, lenses, cleaning cloth and blower and leave the rest in the car?
Thx


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## kaihp (Aug 8, 2015)

ray5 said:


> Yes I thought so too. Particularly the mid afternoon shot. I think there were clouds and whether he used ND filters in not clear but I do like that shot.


Oh yes, a graded ND filter is very recommendable (I used that too).


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## ray5 (Aug 8, 2015)

kaihp said:


> ray5 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I thought so too. Particularly the mid afternoon shot. I think there were clouds and whether he used ND filters in not clear but I do like that shot.
> ...



A 2 stop?


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## kaihp (Aug 8, 2015)

ray5 said:


> kaihp said:
> 
> 
> > ray5 said:
> ...



Yup, I used 2-stop 100 x 150mm Lee 0.6ND grad hard/soft filters, but I could have used 3-4 stops for sure as the sun was pretty harsh that day.


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## ray5 (Aug 9, 2015)

Great!Thx
Does anyone have any suggestions or recommendations for my other questions above? Thx





kaihp said:


> ray5 said:
> 
> 
> > kaihp said:
> ...


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## kaihp (Aug 9, 2015)

ray5 said:


> Great!Thx
> Does anyone have any suggestions or recommendations for my other questions above? Thx



Sorry, I missed those questions.

Totally agree on not changing lenses while inside the slot canyons. You're good to go with the 16-35/4L on the 5D3.

When I went to the upper Antelope, I had the (then) 17-40 on the 5D3, and the 24-70 on my 50D. I barely used the 24-70/50D, so when I went for the lower, I didn't even bring the 50D. In fact, the lower is so narrow that I wouldn't want to bring anything else than the camera (with lens ) and a tripod - and even then expect that your gear could take a few dings from touching the sandstone as you walk through the Canyon.

I would not rent an extra body, as there were very few shots where I wished I had a longer focal range.

Remember that the Upper Antelope Canyon is A-shaped, while the lower is V shaped. That means that you get the best in upper around noon (but there will be more visitors then), and early/late in the day in the lower.

If I got it right, you are driving in from Zion/Bryce. I didn't quite catch if you're going to do a stop in Arches? Arches is very spectatular, but several of the big arches are quite a walk away from the parking areas (esp. Delicate arch, although you can get within photografing range with a fairly short walk.


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## ray5 (Aug 10, 2015)

Thanks.
After I finish Antelope, I will be going to Monument Valley for a Sunset Photo Tour and then onwards to Arches and Canyonlands for two days and then done.
I do hope to do the Delicate Arch at sunset and the Mesa at sunrise, don't know which day yet. 
Ray








kaihp said:


> ray5 said:
> 
> 
> > Great!Thx
> ...


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## monkey44 (Aug 10, 2015)

Well, my thoughts on the 70-200 in the wide open spaces ...

I bring it - and get a lot of very unusual shots with it -- it will pull "things / areas / details" closer that you miss with a wider lens. I shoot a lot of small details, almost like cropping a landscape image to focus on a specific rock, tree, flower critter, but with an interesting background, but the detail remains clear (as opposed to a wide shot that crops and loses detail the more you enlarge it) Hope that makes sense ... 

Usually, shooters use 70-200 and 100/400 for action -- but if you close it down, you get good detail at distance -- works well, especially in areas like you'll find in Utah ... it's a amazing area, a photographer's dream.

ON EDIT: And, you get a unique shot with long lens due to compression on those distances as well.


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## ray5 (Aug 10, 2015)

monkey44 said:


> Well, my thoughts on the 70-200 in the wide open spaces ...
> 
> I bring it - and get a lot of very unusual shots with it -- it will pull "things / areas / details" closer that you miss with a wider lens. I shoot a lot of small details, almost like cropping a landscape image to focus on a specific rock, tree, flower critter, but with an interesting background, but the detail remains clear (as opposed to a wide shot that crops and loses detail the more you enlarge it) Hope that makes sense ...
> 
> ...


Agree. My intent for getting a second body is two fold. There is a theoretical chance of my first body failing. I will be super mad and paralyzed. Also want to get the exact shots you are taking about, above me and more abstract. Thanks


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## scottkinfw (Aug 10, 2015)

I suggest that you go to Brice and be set up and ready to shoot before sun up. The first 3 or so amphitheaters are the best, and after the sun gets high in the sky, contrast gets to be a problem. Therefore I would hit the road after you shoot the golden hour.

For horseshoe bend, you absolutely need uwa <= 14mm or it will be hard to get it in. Again, you will be shooting into the sun here, so best when it is low in the sky.

Since Charlie no longer does Canyon X tours, you might want to give him a call and see if anyone else has picked it up. On the other hand, see if he gives tours other than Canyon X. He took me to some awesome spots. This might be a great fall back plan. Do get to Anetelope canyon, have a sturdy tripod, be patient, as lots of foot traffic. 

Remember that Antelope can be photographed at any time of the day so you can plan around it. Only caveat is that twice a year the sun is high enough that it sends beams of light into the canyon for dramatic effect. Find out if you will be there for that, and be on time to catch it. I think it only lasts about an hour or two and is for about 2 weeks in spring and 2 weeks in fall.

Sek



ray5 said:


> Thanks a lot for the great suggestions.
> Headed there Sept 11-18th. Antelope Canyons, Monument Valley, Arches and Canyonlands.
> It all started with just Antelope canyons and then crept up on me. Because my desired days and photo tour times were booked I had to flex and now have these two days or so before I get to Page rather than after. And hence the thought about Bryce/Zion on the way there. While I am in Page, in between the Upper and Lower Tours I will be shooting Horseshoe Bend at sunset and if I still have some energy might do the night tour of the Upper Canyon. Has anyone ever done it? It is pricey but sounds exciting and different.
> Thor's Hammer is a good suggestion. We will be in an RV so though we will have flexibility and moving when we want but might be limited of where we can go and park.
> ...


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## ray5 (Aug 10, 2015)

Will do. I am trying to see if I can drive to Bryce from SLC on Friday evening instead of Sat morning to be there at sunrise to shoot Thors Hammer and then spend about 3/4 day there Sat and then get to Zion by around 6-7pm. That way I will have a bit more time at Zion before we leave for Page on Sunday.
At Page I have photo tours booked for Upper Canyon at 1030Am Monday Morning to catch the beams if they are still there in Sept and the day is right and try to do sunrise shot of Horseshoe Bend right before. Caome back later that day for a Sunset Shot as well of the Horseshoe.
What I haven't heard from anyone is the Night Photo Tour of the Upper Canyon? It seems no one has done it. It's expensive at $150 but some pictures I have seen are amazing, the guides get the lights for light painting etc.
Tuesday 830 am Photo Tour of Lower Canyon and then leave for Monument Valley.
Thanks


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## scottkinfw (Aug 10, 2015)

If you are energetic, there are some amazing sandstone formations that are great in the evening, not too far from horseshoe bend I think called the fins. Nobody is there at all, and there is a small area to park. Ill get some information for you if I can. That way you can have different stuff to shoot at all times of the day.

Another great one is waterhole canyon. Again, choose one and go golden hour otherwise pics will be bland.
Charlie has closed, look at his pics and they tell where the pics were taken. All of these things are in or around Page which is a small area. The food sucks too!

You should google for directions. All of the areas that I mentioned require a small easy hike of about an hour, so figure that in. Finding them would be the hardest thing.

Sek

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+fins+page+arizona&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CCsQsARqFQoTCNfgq5fqnscCFQh1Hgodu2EAPg&biw=1870&bih=1095

Sek



ray5 said:


> Will do. I am trying to see if I can drive to Bryce from SLC on Friday evening instead of Sat morning to be there at sunrise to shoot Thors Hammer and then spend about 3/4 day there Sat and then get to Zion by around 6-7pm. That way I will have a bit more time at Zion before we leave for Page on Sunday.
> At Page I have photo tours booked for Upper Canyon at 1030Am Monday Morning to catch the beams if they are still there in Sept and the day is right and try to do sunrise shot of Horseshoe Bend right before. Caome back later that day for a Sunset Shot as well of the Horseshoe.
> What I haven't heard from anyone is the Night Photo Tour of the Upper Canyon? It seems no one has done it. It's expensive at $150 but some pictures I have seen are amazing, the guides get the lights for light painting etc.
> Tuesday 830 am Photo Tour of Lower Canyon and then leave for Monument Valley.
> Thanks


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## ray5 (Aug 10, 2015)

Those look great! Please send info if you can find them. If I get good shots of the Horseshoe at sunrise I might be able to skip the sunset time and go here. Thx




scottkinfw said:


> If you are energetic, there are some amazing sandstone formations that are great in the evening, not too far from horseshoe bend I think called the fins. Nobody is there at all, and there is a small area to park. Ill get some information for you if I can. That way you can have different stuff to shoot at all times of the day.
> 
> Another great one is waterhole canyon. Again, choose one and go golden hour otherwise pics will be bland.
> Charlie has closed, look at his pics and they tell where the pics were taken. All of these things are in or around Page which is a small area. The food sucks too!
> ...


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## Stu_bert (Aug 11, 2015)

Just as a different opinion re Antelope, when I've shot there over the years (most recent 2012), I prefer the lower to upper (more time, no guide!), have no issues changing lenses and I've shot probably 1/5 to 1/4 on a medium telephoto (70-300) compared with a wide angle (for all my North America trips, LR tells me I shoot about 1/3 on medium telephoto). It's personal taste of course, but I'd have one lens on each body and a quick release plate.

In terms of research - I'd pick up a copy of Laurent Martres' books (he does 3 covering the SW from Denver through to Arizona) and then chose. He details locations, times, lenses and each time I venture across the pond, I'm normally bringing at least one of them with me.

I would leave both Bryce & Zion till you have more time, unless you dont plan on travelling there again.

The best known locations are indeed beautiful and I've shot many times at them, but some of the less well known are equally enjoyable. It depends again on your taste, your appetite for adventure and what vehicle you drive. For consideration


Alstrom Point is just outside Page, is beautiful at sunset (to me), but does require a 4x4 for the last 1/3 of the trip - or if you are energetic you can hike it.
The Wave is via lottery, but iconic. Enjoyable Hike and good photo op along the hike 
White Pocket (deflate tyres as you go over a lot of sand and gps gets messed up, but great fun)
South Coyotte Buttes - hiking, but only registration required IIRC
Glenn Canyon Dam (during the daytime if you want non landscape stuff)
Wahweap Overlook, for shots of the Marina looking down, easy to get to. I've done in combi with Alstrom
The Needles District - Less frequented part of Canyonlands NP

Whatever you chose, have a great trip


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## ray5 (Aug 11, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> Just as a different opinion re Antelope, when I've shot there over the years (most recent 2012), I prefer the lower to upper (more time, no guide!), have no issues changing lenses and I've shot probably 1/5 to 1/4 on a medium telephoto (70-300) compared with a wide angle (for all my North America trips, LR tells me I shoot about 1/3 on medium telephoto). It's personal taste of course, but I'd have one lens on each body and a quick release plate.
> 
> In terms of research - I'd pick up a copy of Laurent Martres' books (he does 3 covering the SW from Denver through to Arizona) and then chose. He details locations, times, lenses and each time I venture across the pond, I'm normally bringing at least one of them with me.
> 
> ...


Thank you.
I had considered some of them but being in an RV kind of precluded them. I am still considering Waheap Hoodoos but it seems it needs some hiking and though I am reasonably fit have no hiking experience and don't really want to be found a few days later by rangers. But the hoodoos look awesome and if it is possible, light hiking and not too far for civilization I would love to see and photograph it. Let me know. Thx again


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## Stu_bert (Aug 11, 2015)

ray5 said:


> Stu_bert said:
> 
> 
> > Just as a different opinion re Antelope, when I've shot there over the years (most recent 2012), I prefer the lower to upper (more time, no guide!), have no issues changing lenses and I've shot probably 1/5 to 1/4 on a medium telephoto (70-300) compared with a wide angle (for all my North America trips, LR tells me I shoot about 1/3 on medium telephoto). It's personal taste of course, but I'd have one lens on each body and a quick release plate.
> ...



Doh, should have read more closely, sorry. The only two which an RV would preclude is definitely White Pocket & maybe Alstrom. I did a quick google on Alstrom and if you were ok to walk 4 mile round trip on flat terrain, then you could get there without problem. Again, it depends on what you like

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=alstrom+point,+arizona&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CDAQsARqFQoTCKa1ne-OoscCFSEh2wod85UAKg&biw=1920&bih=941

I've done all of the above, the Wave was a 6 mile round trip "hike", and they provide you with a map to follow. I guess everyone will have their definition of what a hike is or isnt, lol.

South Coyote Buttes, you just walk around and take pictures. If you're worried, just use a smartphone app to find your way back to your RV, but I doubt you would need it.

Cant recommend that book enough though if you want to seek out some of the less frequented places.


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## Schmave (Aug 12, 2015)

There's a Flickr group I found for Antelope Canyon that I thought you should take a look through. It might give you some ideas for what sorts of shots you want to take. 

https://www.flickr.com/groups/antelopecanyon/pool/

Also, don't be afraid to get the floor of the canyon in your shots. I took a lot of shots where I didn't get the floor in, but I think I would have liked to get more where you can see the bottom so it doesn't quite look so abstract.


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## ray5 (Aug 12, 2015)

Schmave said:


> There's a Flickr group I found for Antelope Canyon that I thought you should take a look through. It might give you some ideas for what sorts of shots you want to take.
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/groups/antelopecanyon/pool/
> 
> Also, don't be afraid to get the floor of the canyon in your shots. I took a lot of shots where I didn't get the floor in, but I think I would have liked to get more where you can see the bottom so it doesn't quite look so abstract.



Yes, I saw these and have been drooling for almost a year.
And also been reading the Martres books as well. Truly astonishing images. I am so looking forward to it but at the same time apprehensive about the crowds. I hope doing the Photo tours will certainly help somewhat with that. I am reading it is very pressured due to the crowds so one really has to have exposures and all pretty set in mind at least. Thx


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## kaihp (Aug 12, 2015)

ray5 said:


> Yes, I saw these and have been drooling for almost a year.
> And also been reading the Martres books as well. Truly astonishing images. I am so looking forward to it but at the same time apprehensive about the crowds. I hope doing the Photo tours will certainly help somewhat with that. I am reading it is very pressured due to the crowds so one really has to have exposures and all pretty set in mind at least. Thx



I found that if the sun doesn't light up the walls they get very dull brownish, instead of the beautiful rich reds. 

BTW, I forgot to mention that my answers on whether to bring other lenses and an extra body with strictly from the point of the Antelope canyons. Bringing, say, a 24-70, 70-200 and a backup body for the trip make absolute sense.


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## ray5 (Aug 12, 2015)

I really am hoping to have good lighting.
I will be bringing all the lenses listed and as if I am not crazy enough am tempted to bring my recently acquired Zeiss 135mm. Though more of a specialty portrait lens it is know to give outstanding Landscapes as well though certainly not in the Antelope canyon particularly as I am learning to use MF. Might get to use it in Monument valley and elsewhere though not sure I'll take it as it's very heavy and my backpack is already full with anticipated gear!
Thx


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## kaihp (Aug 12, 2015)

ray5 said:


> I really am hoping to have good lighting.
> I will be bringing all the lenses listed and as if I am not crazy enough am tempted to bring my recently acquired Zeiss 135mm. Though more of a specialty portrait lens it is know to give outstanding Landscapes as well though certainly not in the Antelope canyon particularly as I am learning to use MF. Might get to use it in Monument valley and elsewhere though not sure I'll take it as it's very heavy and my backpack is already full with anticipated gear!
> Thx



I brought of the 17-40, 24-70, 70-200/2.8, 1h e16-35.4x TC, two bodies (5D3 and 50D as backup) and a tripod when I went to the South-West in 2012, plus C-POL and graduated ND filters (soft+hard).
If you're a bit of a gearhead like me, it's easy to bring far too much gear 

I visited the Hoover Dam, Valley of Fire, Zion, Bryce, Grand Staircase (HW12), Torrey (try the Café Diablo), Capitol Reef, Canyonlands, Arches, Canyonlands (Needles area), Natural Bridges, Monument Valley, Upper+Lower Antelope, Horseshoe bend, and Grand Canyon in that order in the span of less than 10 days, but that was a bit crazy.

FWIW, I primarily used the 24-70 in Monument Valley, but I also used the 17-40 and the 70-200 for quite a few shots. As I don't use LR, I can't tell you the distribution, though.

But all in all, I found I was well covered with those lenses. Should I do it again, I would take the 16-35/4L, 24-70/II and 70-200/II and possibly skip on the TC.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 12, 2015)

ray5 said:


> Schmave said:
> 
> 
> > There's a Flickr group I found for Antelope Canyon that I thought you should take a look through. It might give you some ideas for what sorts of shots you want to take.
> ...



Make sure you get the photo tour for the upper. I've only ever done the lower in late Jan/early Feb, but I've done the upper in July. The photo tour leader co-ordinates with the other tour leaders (remember they are all Navajo guides), and ensures you get your shots. It does get a little crazy and you certainly try and walk briskly in between locations. It does mean in the upper you wont have much time per location, so yes, if you know the sort of shots you want, and you are really happy quickly altering your camera settings, then you will be fine. 

I'm personally much happier in the lower (time to look at the scene, change the shots etc) and whereas I might do the upper again one day, I'd do the lower without hesitation. In fact I've never managed to get all the way through the lower in the time allowed as I'm always enjoying what I'm doing and not (note to self, next time book a double slot ;D)


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## ray5 (Aug 13, 2015)

kaihp said:


> ray5 said:
> 
> 
> > I really am hoping to have good lighting.
> ...


I think those are the lenses I'll be bringing along with filters etc. Thx


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## ray5 (Aug 13, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> ray5 said:
> 
> 
> > Schmave said:
> ...



I have photo tours booked in both places as well as Monument Valley.
Now, the lower canyon Photo tour, are there photo guides or do they just let you in and let you explore for two hours?
I am booked on the 830Am tour of the lower. I am told that's the best time to go there. Any experience with that or is the late afternoon(230pm) tour a better idea?Thx


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## Schmave (Aug 13, 2015)

For the lower canyon photo tour they do still have a guide go with you. When I went the guide did a good job helping to control traffic so we could get the shots we wanted. I did the 10:30 AM tour but, FWIW, I asked her when she thought the light was the best in the lower canyon and she said around 8:00 AM. So I think your 8:30 AM tour will be good.


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## ray5 (Aug 13, 2015)

Thanks!


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## Stu_bert (Aug 13, 2015)

ray5 said:


> Stu_bert said:
> 
> 
> > ray5 said:
> ...



The lower photo tour is indeed a do your own thing - or it was when I did it in 2012. You don't have to book though - I just rocked up, paid the dollars and walked down. But that was 3.5 years ago so maybe it's changed ? It's easy to find, basically on one side is the upper and on the other side of the road is the lower.

I've shot there around noon, my understanding was as the sun is overhead you get better light into the canyons, but if your research says differently then please don't rely on mine as of course it might have been better in the morning!


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## ray5 (Aug 13, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> ray5 said:
> 
> 
> > Stu_bert said:
> ...



To be absolutely certain I did go ahead and book. Didn't want to get there and be turned away.
I had originally heard what you say, that they give you a tag with your name and time on it and off you go. But then I heard that it may have changed now and has a guide. Don't know for sure, have written to them to clarify. 
Most people say that either early morning or late afternoon are the best times. I was trying to see if I can be more time efficient and do the lower canyon the same afternoon as the Upper tour but it sounds that I should stay put with the 830am tour for the best lights. I am just hoping the weather cooperates. Will let you guys know when I hear from them. Thanks


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## Stu_bert (Aug 13, 2015)

ray5 said:


> Stu_bert said:
> 
> 
> > ray5 said:
> ...



Thank you. Also ask them if you can do it without a guide. In the upper, it's inevitable based on the crowds. But if you want to take your own photos, then explore by yourself. I will certainly bear it in mind when I next go there, and if the light is better for the early morning / late afternoon then clearly stick with that. 

Finally, without appearing to be dramatic, if there has been any rain, I'd not do the lower at all. It's below ground, you go down probably 20" ladder and it gradually declines as you walk through it. I'm sure that's not the case, July is the best month for dramatic storms and light - hence my preferred time to go to Southern Utah / Norther Arizona - makes the landscapes just zing more imho.


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## ray5 (Aug 13, 2015)

Thanks. I had heard of flash flooding and will certainly be aware of such events. I have seen some fantastic images of storms particularly over Monument Valley. For the sake of Antelope Canyon I would rather not have rain but for everywhere else I would. :
If only I could control that...ha ha.


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## ray5 (Aug 13, 2015)

Website says the Lower Antelope Photo tours are now guided.
http://lowerantelope.com/?page_id=53


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## Stu_bert (Aug 13, 2015)

ray5 said:


> Website says the Lower Antelope Photo tours are now guided.
> http://lowerantelope.com/?page_id=53



I remember them telling us that they'd got really peeved as people were doing nude photography down there which is why on the webpage you supplied it clearly is covering for that. But in the FAQ is the telling piece, I quote:

*Can we hike the canyon ourselves / without a guide? *No, Tribal law requires that ALL people be guided down. People have been caught vandalizing the canyon (writing and climbing the canyon walls). To discourage this, everyone must go down with a guide. I am sorry, but we no longer do Photo Pass, EVERYONE goes down with a guide now. It has changed to PHOTOGRAPHERS TOUR.

Which is a major, major b*mmer.

I'd mail them and ask them how it works. If they are good, you are given some freedom and the guide just keeps an eye to ensure you're taking photos (which should be the case if you're there with a tripod, but clearly others abuse it so they have to lock it down). My friend and I were never in the same "stretch" to ensure that we never got in each anothers photos - and given I was there in Feb, I had long exposures. If there are multiple photographers then it's not as wide as Upper and it will be interesting to know how they control / manage it. Also, I would love to be able to advise you that the best stuff is down the far end, but like I said, I never managed to get that far - always rushing to get back out in the 2 hrs...

Thanks for the heads up, seems that if I ever want to do it again then I need to be off season OR find a way to pay for my own guide, which isn't going to be cheap, and therefore unlikely. 

</rant on>

Why people have to be so disrespectful is beyond me. I understand and agree with what they have done, I just wish people would stop, think, and stop being do darn selfish. 

 x10 trillion 

</rant off>

Thanks again for the info.


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## ray5 (Aug 13, 2015)

Indeed unfortunate why they had to make the changes. Though I understand the reasons for wanting to go and shoot alone, since I am going for the first time it might be better for me to have a guide and perhaps if and when I return and things change I could do it alone. Let's see how it goes.


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## Schmave (Aug 13, 2015)

So I went in May this year and we had a guide for our lower photo tour. There were 4 photographers in my group and they kept us basically in the same area at each place we stopped. So we all had to be kind of quick and "share" the space. With tripods, especially, often only one of us could get a shot at a time so we would have to wait a little to get "the shot". 

Actually, now that I think about it, that might be a good opportunity if you did end up bringing a second body/lens so you could shoot tighter details while someone else is shooting the main "view". But I do think it will be a little painful to lug around a second body like that.


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## ray5 (Aug 14, 2015)

Schmave said:


> Actually, now that I think about it, that might be a good opportunity if you did end up bringing a second body/lens so you could shoot tighter details while someone else is shooting the main "view". But I do think it will be a little painful to lug around a second body like that.


Yup, plan to do that. Except not sure which lens to put on the spare, handheld body 24-70 or 70-200mm both F2.8L II.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 15, 2015)

Schmave said:


> So I went in May this year and we had a guide for our lower photo tour. There were 4 photographers in my group and they kept us basically in the same area at each place we stopped. So we all had to be kind of quick and "share" the space. With tripods, especially, often only one of us could get a shot at a time so we would have to wait a little to get "the shot".
> 
> Actually, now that I think about it, that might be a good opportunity if you did end up bringing a second body/lens so you could shoot tighter details while someone else is shooting the main "view". But I do think it will be a little painful to lug around a second body like that.



That's a pity they run it like that, similar to the upper. 

I'd take the longer lens. If you are creative, whilst people are shooting wide, you can use the long (take a 1.4x if you have it), and get some different stuff, the additional reach means you should be able to stand behind whoever is up doing their thing and shoot at the same time. of course it all depends on your style and the answer to the question below about speed etc. If I'm doing long exposure stuff, I take my travel tripod as well as my Gitzo and so long as I am careful with the lens choice, then I can use the second body at the same time as my prime rig.

Another technique to consider is multiple exposure of the same scene and then do image stacking (some people use this to reduce noise, but you can also use it to remove people from landscape or urban shots - not the same as HDR or focus stacking). It relies on you not moving the camera of course, and the other photogs moving in between shots, but this may also help you get shots while the main photog is shooting. Photoshop CC and the extended ed of CS5/6 can process this sort of image. Again, it depends on how many frames you can do as to how successful it is.

I also have a tripod pouch which cost about $18 and can easily hold a couple of lenses and a body, and of course this is personal, but I had no problems carrying it around. Longer walks, sling the body on my shoulder and a lens in my pocket, and leave the other body attached to the tripod.

@Schmave - did you get enough light to handhold as sensible ISO and decent aperture?


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## Schmave (Aug 15, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> That's a pity they run it like that, similar to the upper.
> 
> I'd take the longer lens. If you are creative, whilst people are shooting wide, you can use the long (take a 1.4x if you have it), and get some different stuff, the additional reach means you should be able to stand behind whoever is up doing their thing and shoot at the same time. of course it all depends on your style and the answer to the question below about speed etc. If I'm doing long exposure stuff, I take my travel tripod as well as my Gitzo and so long as I am careful with the lens choice, then I can use the second body at the same time as my prime rig.
> 
> ...



For the lower canyon I was on the photo tour with a tripod and tried to keep it at ISO 100 and was shooting exposures in about the 0.5-5 second range at f8 usually. I just did a walking tour of the upper canyon so I was shooting handheld there and needed ISO 3200 to 6400 which, on my 70D, I wouldn't consider very usable other than for web viewing. 

With that said, the lower canyon was definitely brighter than the upper canyon, especially if you wanted to try shooting detail shots of small areas near the top of the canyon. So for that I think I'd also recommend that Ray take the 70-200 on his second body. I think that would definitely be hand-holdable for some of the brighter areas.


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## ray5 (Aug 17, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> Schmave said:
> 
> 
> > So I went in May this year and we had a guide for our lower photo tour. There were 4 photographers in my group and they kept us basically in the same area at each place we stopped. So we all had to be kind of quick and "share" the space. With tripods, especially, often only one of us could get a shot at a time so we would have to wait a little to get "the shot".
> ...



Hi,
Will do. What is image stacking? Thx


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## ray5 (Aug 17, 2015)

Schmave said:


> Stu_bert said:
> 
> 
> > That's a pity they run it like that, similar to the upper.
> ...


Makes sense. I will be ending another 5D MK III just so that I am familiar with the controls etc.Thanks


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## Stu_bert (Aug 17, 2015)

ray5 said:


> Stu_bert said:
> 
> 
> > Schmave said:
> ...



Easiest to point you to Photoshop documentation 

https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/using/image-stacks.html

or John Knack's video

http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2007/03/safe_humane_tourist_zapping_in_photoshop_e.html


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## Stu_bert (Aug 17, 2015)

Spooky, Luminous Landscape just did an article about it...

https://luminous-landscape.com/making-people-and-other-things-go-away/


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## ray5 (Aug 18, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> Spooky, Luminous Landscape just did an article about it...
> 
> https://luminous-landscape.com/making-people-and-other-things-go-away/


Thanks. Saw it. Somewhere in the video the person says focus stacking. That's different, correct from image stacking. I haven't done either but what I understand is in focus stacking you change your focussing point to get a lot of DOF. But image stacking is totally different, isn't it. Exposure and focus points remains same, it's just multiple same images taken over a period of time and then merged to remove anything that is not static. Correct?
Will there be enough time to do this in the canyon?


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## Stu_bert (Aug 18, 2015)

ray5 said:


> Stu_bert said:
> 
> 
> > Spooky, Luminous Landscape just did an article about it...
> ...



Correct, focus stacking is about taking advantage of the best aperture on your lens, avoiding diffraction and achieving the DOF you desire.

Image stacking is good for reducing noise and eliminating cars or people. Astro photographers use it a lot. As you say it relies on fairly constant exposure, focal length, focusing etc. the only reason to consider it is it may allow you to take shots whilst another photographer is in front doing their shot. Theoretically if you only have one human to eliminate, then even if you have a photographer in every shot, so long as they don't occupy the same space image stacking will remove them... 

Or if there are say four or five photographers in your group, you could be waiting a while between each shot. Set the camera on tripod to do 3 or 4 shots whilst you use the second body and the zoom. Alternatively, frame your shot how you want, handheld and then mount in the tripod when it's your turn


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## ray5 (Aug 19, 2015)

Thanks.
For Shooting Mesa Arch at sunrise, what is the optimum position? I googled it and it seems as we face the arch it will be towards the right of the arch, relatively close(?10-15feet) to it? Of course arrive early to get that spot. Any recommendations?


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## ray5 (Aug 23, 2015)

I will be bracketing in Antelope Canyon. Typically I do -2,0,+2. I am wondering whether I should bracket -3,-2,0,+2,+3.
Or -3,0,+3? Thx


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