# Canon to use a Sony image sensor in an upcoming APS-C ILC body? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 10, 2018)

> We’re told that Canon will be using the brand new Sony IMX571 image sensor in an upcoming Canon APS-C ILC camera body. The source thinks it’s going to be in a mirrorless camera, but there’s also the possibility we’ll see it in a DSLR.
> The Sony IMX571 is a back-illuminated 26mp CMOS APS-C image sensor built for DSLRs, which we believe includes mirrorless ILC applications. The sensor is also capable of shooting at 16fps.
> Canon has used Sony image sensors in PowerShot cameras in the past, but I cannot remember the last time they used a 3rd party image sensor in an interchangeable lens camera.
> You can learn more about Sony’s image sensors here.
> More to come…



Continue reading...


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## delta0 (Nov 10, 2018)

This could be the 90D/7D mirrorless RF mount replacement. One down from the current EOS R. Could we see this early 2019?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 10, 2018)

Its possible, APS-C sensors are becoming more of a commodity, FF sensors may become a focus for Canon in the future. Canon will take the lowest cost method for similar performance. With sales falling everywhere, there is more attention being paid to the high end products.


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## cpreston (Nov 10, 2018)

The main question would be whether they could overlay the DPAF on the sensor or not. Sony seems to be better at producing sensors with faster readouts (at least based on camera specs), but DPAF is currently Canon's primary advantage on the tech side.


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 10, 2018)

cpreston said:


> The main question would be whether they could overlay the DPAF on the sensor or not.



Not. DPAF requires specific pixel architecture; it’s not an addon.


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## JonSnow (Nov 10, 2018)

i think that rumor is total nonsense.

why would canon start using sony sensors now?

ok some canon exec said they will use the best sensors available.... but then they should use sony sensors for a few years now.

add to that that the sony sensor will not have DPAF.


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## Hector1970 (Nov 10, 2018)

I'd agree that APS-C might be coming a commodity product. Canon will probably want to produce their mid-range cameras as cheaply as possible. I'd say a buyer who only has limited knowledge of cameras and video will just be looking at how many MP's what FPS and does it have 4K video. It will meet those criteria. 
I don't think they won't use Sony sensors as point of principle. I'd say they'd go for the cheapest source.
FF for the moment they will be producing their own sensors.


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## mirage (Nov 10, 2018)

don't believe it. 1" sensors yes. APS-C or FF: no. All Canon EOS ILCs will have DP-AF aboard.


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## docsmith (Nov 10, 2018)

mirage said:


> don't believe it. 1" sensors yes. APS-C or FF: no. All Canon EOS ILCs will have DP-AF aboard.


This is my general thought too. I am trying to think of some specialty niche where Canon might be ok not including DPAF and that would really benefit from a Sony sensor. Maybe an astro version of the 90D?

Mostly, I am in the "nonsense" category as well.


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## Uneternal (Nov 10, 2018)

Yeah I also believe they will use this sensor in a powershot like the G7X III but very unlikely they gonna use it in any DPAF camera. Why would Canon ditch their major advantage DPAF which is not even exhausted to its full potential yet?


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## TMHKR (Nov 10, 2018)

A nonsense so severe, you might as well delete this entire article.


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## Talys (Nov 10, 2018)

JonSnow said:


> add to that that the sony sensor will not have DPAF.


… and I can't imagine Canon selling an ILC without DPAF.

It's a bizarre rumor that deserves a -100 CR rating.


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## BeenThere (Nov 10, 2018)

Could be a 7D3 DSLR with very limited video. The high frame rate with Canon ergonomics would probably sell OK and quiet the herd waiting for a sports or birding upgrade.


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## Cryve (Nov 10, 2018)

docsmith said:


> This is my general thought too. I am trying to think of some specialty niche where Canon might be ok not including DPAF and that would really benefit from a Sony sensor. Maybe an astro version of the 90D?
> 
> Mostly, I am in the "nonsense" category as well.



the 7d iii wouldnt need dpaf if its only focus is photography and not video


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## jvillain (Nov 10, 2018)

I'm not feeling this rumor ether. I doubt it is aimed at the low end of the M series as Canon's answer for low end low cost sensors has always been to stick a hand me down sensor from a previously higher end model in. After all once you have paid for the design and the fab for a sensor the cost of cranking them out after that is pretty cheap.

It won't be for a high end M as doing that would mean abandoning their own sensors in APS-C all together. That would cut a ton of R&D money out of sensor design and hurt the FF and other sensors going forward. Besides Canon is trying to sell more sensors not fewer. 

Maybe a 7D3 if it is the last of the line. Contrast AF can save the day for the bird shooters. But I don't know what the answer is on the video side. But the new Sony sensor will do 16fps at full resolution as it is BSI which would make the bird shooters happy...er. That is if Canon has a processor to handle it. But the biggest blocker of all is ... "Get our new flagship APS-C camera, now with Sony sensors". Would it be worth the hassle of months of Sony trolls (and TN) proclaiming the end of Canon?


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## jebrady03 (Nov 10, 2018)

I'm not sure why people think that Sony couldn't create a dpaf sensor for Canon. They make sensors to spec all the time. Additionally, Sony's sensor manufacturing is a separate business from their cameras and must remain that way.


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## Otara (Nov 10, 2018)

If the 7DIII didnt have DPAF or video, I and I suspect many others would be pretty annoyed. This is CR -1 or worse.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 10, 2018)

After looking up the specs for the IMX571, it would not be my choice for a new Canon APS-C, It is supposedly the sensor used in the Fujii X-T3, which is marketed as a X-Trans CMOS 4 sensor which is not going to be used by Canon. Fujii addict may be wrong about the sensor though.

Canon does like to use the same sensor or a slight variation in all of their APS-C cameras. For them to abandon DPAF would be a shock.


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 10, 2018)

jebrady03 said:


> I'm not sure why people think that Sony couldn't create a dpaf sensor for Canon. They make sensors to spec all the time. Additionally, Sony's sensor manufacturing is a separate business from their cameras and must remain that way.


Who alleged that they could not?

IMX571 is a COTS sensor from Sony, not a custom job. 

https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/IS/sensor2/products/index.html


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## jebrady03 (Nov 10, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Who alleged that they could not?
> 
> IMX571 is a COTS sensor from Sony, not a custom job. And it lacks dual pixels.


Everyone has said it will lack dpaf. I'm saying Sony could make a sensor for Canon with DPAF if Canon asked them to.
Also, it's a CR1. What do you think the likelihood is that the exact sensor information is known about an otherwise completely unknown camera? Seriously. Think about that.


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 10, 2018)

jebrady03 said:


> Everyone has said it will lack dpaf. I'm saying Sony could make a sensor for Canon with DPAF if Canon asked them to.
> Also, it's a CR1. What do you think the likelihood is that the exact sensor information is known about an otherwise completely unknown camera? Seriously. Think about that.


Nobody said a canon camera will lack DPAF. People asked if canon could add DPAF to a Sony sensor.

I think the likelihood anyone outside canon knows anything is approximately 0%, unless there is supply chain information suggesting canon purchased a large quantity of the aforementioned sensor.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 11, 2018)

jebrady03 said:


> Everyone has said it will lack dpaf. I'm saying Sony could make a sensor for Canon with DPAF if Canon asked them to.
> Also, it's a CR1. What do you think the likelihood is that the exact sensor information is known about an otherwise completely unknown camera? Seriously. Think about that.


Thats because the sensor mentioned lacks Dual Pixels. Sure, Sony could make a Dual Pixel Sensor, but thats not part of the rumor.


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## Adelino (Nov 11, 2018)

Uneternal said:


> Yeah I also believe they will use this sensor in a powershot like the G7X III but very unlikely they gonna use it in any DPAF camera. Why would Canon ditch their major advantage DPAF which is not even exhausted to its full potential yet?


Even the G7XIII there are strong rumors that it will have Dual Pixel, so again Sony sensor seems unlikely there.


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## BlueBomberTurbo (Nov 11, 2018)

Sony (and even Samsung) makes smartphone sensors with DPAF, so they definitely know how to add it. How much it differs from Canon's, who knows? Also, X-Trans is only a CFA layer, added on top of the base sensor instead of a Bayer filter. Has no affect on the build of the sensor itself.


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## [email protected] (Nov 11, 2018)

I've taken more than 500k shots on a 7d2. Not only would I prefer 16fps over dual pixel AF, I'd pay 50 percent more for it. 

I think dpaf is great, but it is not typically a bread and butter feature for a 7 series shooter.

If one were to guess the fastest way for Canon to release a 7d3 with improved fps, this would be it. My impression is that Canon needs some significant time to catch up on sensor readout, so this could be a rational move, if it is true. 

I don't think Canon would bemoan the embarrassement of using a Sony sensor, as Sony's new sensors are already out there for everyone to see, and they're pretty great. That ship has sailed. 

Having one in a Canon-made body, with the ergonomics and interfaces we love would make lots of us pretty happy, as most of us aren't keeping “brand score.” I mean if the alternative is an rf7d with 8 fps during af servo focusing, who wouldn't be?

Of course, i too would hope the rumor is off because Canon may have a crop answer to the A9 in the wings. But of the three options: 
1) Launching a Canon with a Sony sensor
2) Canon's crop A9 imminent
3) Canon will sit around for another 18 months and not do much of anything
... guess which is most probable.


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## Berowne (Nov 11, 2018)

How well will Canon's proprietary Signal-processor work with a "foreign" Sensor?


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## addola (Nov 11, 2018)

An image sensor has all these little pins and connectors coming in and out of it. These connectors are for various things like voltage in, data-in/out, etc, etc. These pins also would connect to the image processor (DIGIC whatever). If we assume that Canon-made sensor follow certain designs and certain outputs coming out of the sensor, then using a Sony sensor (potentially with a different signal format, and pins at different positions) might require them make major redesigns for their boards and image processors.

According to Canon, a DPAF-capable sensor would have two photodiodes (that's a fancy word for light sensors), a design that might not be similar to what Sony has. Also, I thought Canon had some patents going around for "Quad Pixel AF". So I personally don't think they'll go this route, but who knows!

Exciting to see what they're up to.


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## traveller (Nov 11, 2018)

We’ve heard this rumour before, just before Canon launched the 5DS(R) there was a rumour that it would have a Sony sensor. I remember that everyone got very excited and then the 5DS(R) came out with a Canon sensor and a lower DR figure than people had expected. Cue much hand-wringing and “that’s it, I’m switching to (Sony/Nikon)”... 

So please excuse me if I pop to my local merchant and order a ton-bag of road-gritting salt, with which to consume this particular CR1 rumour.


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## memoriaphoto (Nov 11, 2018)

I see this as plausible. It is in the midrange that the market is whining about DR, 4K video and IBIS. Not that Pros wouldn´t need it but we are not chasing specs like that. If Sony has a great sensor on the shelves and Canon can guarantee a certain volume, I am sure they´ll get a good offer and can price the camera accordingly. Having that said, I still think Sony saves the very best and latest for their own cameras to make sure they are always one step ahead in the sensor department.


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## mirage (Nov 11, 2018)

Sony could possibly manufacture a DP-AF sensor according to Canon's detailed specs. But i don't think Canon is willing to share those. Even when Sony sensor business is sonewhat separated from Sony imaging division ...

Canon can make APS-C sensors in-house, it does not need Sony. Even if some Sony sensor might be 2/3 EV ahead in DR and/or a few cents lower cost per unit - in practice that has never kept Canon from selling more cameras with their sensors than Sony and Nikon/Sony combined.

in short: don't believe this rumour.

oO ... now i sound like a CanonFanBoy. But rest assured I am not.


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## clicstudio (Nov 11, 2018)

If you can't beat them, join them!


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## mb66energy (Nov 11, 2018)

Cryve said:


> the 7d iii wouldnt need dpaf if its only focus is photography and not video



Until now I am 99.99% photographer and I am glad that DPAF is there because it just works nearly without flaws for ... PHOTOGRAPHY.
If you like to compose your image first and set the focus point according to your composition you need a very precise on sensor AF and that is there Canon designed DPAF. And I need nearly the whole sensor surface as potential AF point depending of what I do.


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## criscokkat (Nov 11, 2018)

The only way I could see this as true is a aps-c point and shoot, or _if this is the start of switching to Sony for all image sensors using Canon specs._

If Canon has decided to throw in the towel at higher read speed chips and are going to use Sony as a custom fabricator for their chips, they could cross license some of their enormous amount of patents in return for sony’s Expertise and fabs. They could even sell Sony the equipment needed in the fabs. There is no reason why canons dpaf could not be fabricated by Sony, if canon worked with them on the design.

This would explain canons recent push for using their sensors wholesale in machine applications. When a production line is too slow in the chip world for the newest computers it’s repurposed many times to make other chips that don’t need to be quite as fast. I could see that in the imaging sensor world as well.

However I had read previously that one of Canons foundaries was setting up a new processing line to make smaller chips - maybe they think it’s better outsourced? In today’s chip market, that might make sense. A whole string of successful patent lawsuits around the world have enforced the idea that companies get paid. Even AMD doesn’t make their own chips, their spun off company Global manufacturers does, along with TSMC.


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## JonSnow (Nov 11, 2018)

jebrady03 said:


> I'm not sure why people think that Sony couldn't create a dpaf sensor for Canon. They make sensors to spec all the time. Additionally, Sony's sensor manufacturing is a separate business from their cameras and must remain that way.



that´s not the question. the rumor says canon will use an *existing* sony sensor....


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## bichex (Nov 11, 2018)

A Canon 7d III with a 12 FPS, better AF and a good sony sensor, I would buy. I'm not interested in video


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Nov 11, 2018)

The Sony IMX571 is the sensor that FujiFilm uses in the X-T3 which is an extremely capable video camera. Far better than anything Canon is offering outside of their cinema line of cameras. Not sure why posters are saying this camera wouldn't be able to offer video. DPAF does nice cinematic focus pulls but it's just one of many ways to manage video focus and for the time being it seems to be a challenge for DPAF to read out fast enough for DSLR level frame rates. Canon is now competing directly with the best MILC's out there and they may need to look outside of their own R&D to find solutions. Sony doesn't appear interested in developing their own APS-C line so they may be open to letting Canon have their most advanced APS-C sensor. Probably won't happen but nobody should rule it out IMO.


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## Otara (Nov 11, 2018)

It wasnt so much that it wouldnt offer it as the usual 'video doesnt matter' argument for why DPAF wasnt needed - it has to offer good quality video and video focus, anyone asking for otherwise is ignoring where the market is at these days and simply asking for what they want personally. To do this for one camera with the extra development etc needed also seems awfully unlikely to me.

I also see this as a marketting disaster, to say that DPAF 'doesnt matter' when its a major point of differentiation for them.


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## bhf3737 (Nov 11, 2018)

jebrady03 said:


> I'm not sure why people think that Sony couldn't create a dpaf sensor for Canon. They make sensors to spec all the time. Additionally, Sony's sensor manufacturing is a separate business from their cameras and must remain that way.


My understanding is that Sony provides the CMOS sensor and the buyer can put color filter array (e.g. Beyer, X-Trans) on it for producing pictures. But the AF technology is different. The sensor MUST be tailored to the AF technology (phase or contrast detect or DPAF). This cannot be added to an existing sensor afterwards.
Perhaps Canon has set its sensor line to produce DPAF sensors all the way from 1-inch or smaller to full frame in its new plant. And for Canon, perhaps it is more economical to buy a sensor without DPAF elsewhere rather than setting a new production line for it. 
DPAF is computationally expensive because it computes phase shift for every pixel and not for the AF points only. With phase detect or hybrid AF technology on a Sony sensor, Canon can possibly achieve very high FPS, I guess, as Fujifilm has reached 16-30 FPS on their XT3. This may suit well the 7Dx line.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 11, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> My understanding is that Sony provides the CMOS sensor and the buyer can put color filter array (e.g. Beyer, X-Trans) on it for producing pictures. But the AF technology is different. The sensor MUST be tailored to the AF technology (phase or contrast detect or DPAF). This cannot be added to an existing sensor afterwards.
> Perhaps Canon has set its sensor line to produce DPAF sensors all the way from 1-inch or smaller to full frame in its new plant. And for Canon, perhaps it is more economical to buy a sensor without DPAF elsewhere rather than setting a new production line for it.
> DPAF is computationally expensive because it computes phase shift for every pixel and not for the AF points only. With phase detect or hybrid AF technology on a Sony sensor, Canon can possibly achieve very high FPS, I guess, as Fujifilm has reached 16-30 FPS on their XT3. This may suit well the 7Dx line.



I agree, but would like to add...

Canon digic processors being developed are optimized for DPAF as is the firmware. I can imagine that maintaining two types of firmware, including service tools and training is expensive, so if they were to use this sensor, they would likely abandon DPAF for all APS sensors.


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## applecider (Nov 12, 2018)

Anyone know the ratio of APS C to full frame cameras for canon?

I’d bet it’s 5-10 to one. That said I can’t see canon outsourcing its most common sensor, and if they do it seems only a matter of time before full frame follows the same course, as R and D and even manufacture has got to be cheaper in volume.


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## AJ (Nov 12, 2018)

It'll be called a Canony.


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## David Hull (Nov 12, 2018)

memoriaphoto said:


> I see this as plausible. It is in the midrange that the market is whining about DR, 4K video and IBIS. Not that Pros wouldn´t need it but we are not chasing specs like that. If Sony has a great sensor on the shelves and Canon can guarantee a certain volume, I am sure they´ll get a good offer and can price the camera accordingly. Having that said, I still think *Sony saves the very best and latest for their own cameras to make sure they are always one step ahead in the sensor department.*



I would bet that Sony’s camera division ant Sony’s semiconductor division are completely different entities with little connection. To the semiconductor guys the camera division is a customer just like Nikon. If it weren’t that way, Sony semiconductor would have no customers other than Sony Camera Division. One of the first rules of buisness if you are a component supplier is: “don’t compete with your customers”. If they want to supply sensors as components to other camera manufacturers, you cannot play these sort of games and would have no financial incisive to do so.


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## David Hull (Nov 12, 2018)

mirage said:


> Sony could possibly manufacture a DP-AF sensor according to Canon's detailed specs. But i don't think Canon is willing to share those. Even when Sony sensor business is sonewhat separated from Sony imaging division ...
> 
> Canon can make APS-C sensors in-house, it does not need Sony. Even if some Sony sensor might be 2/3 EV ahead in DR and/or a few cents lower cost per unit - in practice that has never kept Canon from selling more cameras with their sensors than Sony and Nikon/Sony combined.
> 
> ...



Canon may be running up against a readout speed issue with their disintegrated sensor solutions.


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 12, 2018)

David Hull said:


> I would bet that Sony’s camera division ant Sony’s semiconductor division are completely different entities with little connection.


It's more concrete than that. Sony Semiconductor Solutions is not a division, it is a corporation. https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201510/15-082E/


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## Mbell75 (Nov 12, 2018)

Canon is obviously lacking in mirrorless tech, especially in sensor speed. Would be great if Canon just focused on their DSLRs and making lenses for Sony and then Sony made sensors for Canon's mirrorless cameras. That would be the best of both worlds.


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## scyrene (Nov 12, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> I've taken more than 500k shots on a 7d2. Not only would I prefer 16fps over dual pixel AF, I'd pay 50 percent more for it.



The problem with this kind of assertion - and we see it here from time to time - is that presumably _the market_ would not be prepared to pay 50% more for any given feature. Most customers are sensitive to price first and foremost.


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## jschoonj (Nov 12, 2018)

If this is true it wouldn’t be for any existing line I think. Canon APS-C lenses are 1.6x crop compared to full frame whereas Sony APS-C is 1.5x crop. Surely this means existing lenses would not be optimized for the new sensor size.


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## jolyonralph (Nov 12, 2018)

Never going to happen.


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## photonius (Nov 12, 2018)

Maybe Canon bought a couple of Sony chips to try them and play around, and compare with the competition. Maybe the "source" saw some chips somewhere, or saw that Canon bought some from Sony. But I would also think it unlikely that they would end up in any mirrorless. Maybe in some Powershot.


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## David Hull (Nov 12, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> It's more concrete than that. Sony Semiconductor Solutions is not a division, it is a corporation. https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201510/15-082E/


Well, that pretty much sums it up. Thanks. This means that the camera group is just another customer.


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## melgross (Nov 12, 2018)

I hope this isn’t the beginning of the end for Canon’s own sensors.


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## crazyrunner33 (Nov 12, 2018)

melgross said:


> I hope this isn’t the beginning of the end for Canon’s own sensors.



I hope it is. Focusing more resources on fine tuning the sensor, the pipeline and end user experience instead of worrying about the manufacturing would be a smart move. It would be similar to Nikon using Sony sensors, Sony manufactures the sensor, but Nikon uses their resources to optimize the sensor. It's too resource intensive to try and keep up with the tooling needed to build sensors, especially when Sony gets so much income from smartphones to allow them to update their tooling so frequently.


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## Proscribo (Nov 12, 2018)

crazyrunner33 said:


> *I hope it is*. Focusing more resources on fine tuning the sensor, the pipeline and end user experience instead of worrying about the manufacturing would be a smart move. It would be similar to Nikon using Sony sensors, Sony manufactures the sensor, but Nikon uses their resources to optimize the sensor. It's too resource intensive to try and keep up with the tooling needed to build sensors, especially when Sony gets so much income from smartphones to allow them to update their tooling so frequently.


I don't understand why people think monopolies are a good thing.


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## crashpc (Nov 12, 2018)

I would not trust this one. If that was dedicated high-res 48Mpx sensor, then I might raise one of my eyebrows.


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## jvillain (Nov 12, 2018)

Canon isn't getting out of the sensor business. Full stop. Canon isn't just a camera company. For example Toshiba uses Canon equipment to produce it's NAND chips. Canon sells sensors in other fields besides photography. It's printer tech is used in it's semiconductor fabs. etc, etc. A large and more profitable part of the company would go away if they were to throw their hands up and say. <ahem> it we don't know how to make sensors or chips. What they learn making their own sensors allows them to feed back into their fab side etc. 

I highly expect the next camera in the R line to tell us far more about where Canon sensor tech is headed than the R did.


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## raptor3x (Nov 12, 2018)

Maybe the reason Canon is starting to offer a foundry business is because they plan to have more capacity due to outsourcing their DSLR sensors to Sony? It seems like Canon would need to upgrade their entire process node just to be competitive and it seems unlikely that they'd be able to recoup that investment without the volume from the compact camera market.


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## transpo1 (Nov 12, 2018)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> The Sony IMX571 is the sensor that FujiFilm uses in the X-T3 which is an extremely capable video camera. Far better than anything Canon is offering outside of their cinema line of cameras. Not sure why posters are saying this camera wouldn't be able to offer video. DPAF does nice cinematic focus pulls but it's just one of many ways to manage video focus and for the time being it seems to be a challenge for DPAF to read out fast enough for DSLR level frame rates. Canon is now competing directly with the best MILC's out there and they may need to look outside of their own R&D to find solutions. Sony doesn't appear interested in developing their own APS-C line so they may be open to letting Canon have their most advanced APS-C sensor. Probably won't happen but nobody should rule it out IMO.



As someone who has been using the video on the X-T3 for several months now, I can tell you that sensor is extremely capable of great looking motion images. (And stills.) It makes sense that Canon would need to quickly achieve video parity with competitors by using sensors outside of their own lineup.


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## melgross (Nov 12, 2018)

crazyrunner33 said:


> I hope it is. Focusing more resources on fine tuning the sensor, the pipeline and end user experience instead of worrying about the manufacturing would be a smart move. It would be similar to Nikon using Sony sensors, Sony manufactures the sensor, but Nikon uses their resources to optimize the sensor. It's too resource intensive to try and keep up with the tooling needed to build sensors, especially when Sony gets so much income from smartphones to allow them to update their tooling so frequently.



Bad idea. Despite that Canon slow walked the onboard amplifier, which is why their chips have been behind, that era is over. Canon has an excellent semiconductor manufacturing structure. They’ve been doing it for decades. Having them go to Sony for everything eliminates any chance they could advance further. They make a whopping number of video sensors, including some of the worlds most advanced.

I’d like to see them apply some of the technology they’ve been showing at the Canon shows here in NYC every two years, or so.

Just don’t forget that Canon is much larger and more diversified than Nikon is, and that Sony makes almost all of its profits from the Playstation, games, accessories and network, not from their hardware sales.


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## melgross (Nov 12, 2018)

raptor3x said:


> Maybe the reason Canon is starting to offer a foundry business is because they plan to have more capacity due to outsourcing their DSLR sensors to Sony? It seems like Canon would need to upgrade their entire process node just to be competitive and it seems unlikely that they'd be able to recoup that investment without the volume from the compact camera market.


That makes no sense. Sensors and regular chips are very different. It could be because point and shoot business is almost dead, though most of those sensors weren’t built by Canon. Also, no matter what, the camera business, for everyone, is tottering. Even Sony is making fewer sensors.


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 12, 2018)

melgross said:


> That makes no sense. Sensors and regular chips are very different. It could be because point and shoot business is almost dead, though most of those sensors weren’t built by Canon. Also, no matter what, the camera business, for everyone, is tottering. Even Sony is making fewer sensors.


I’m not putting any eggs in this basket, but what might make more sense is canon looking to source sensors for a camera run while spinning a new process in their own fab.


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## David Hull (Nov 12, 2018)

Proscribo said:


> I don't understand why people think monopolies are a good thing.



Sony doesn't have a monopoly on sensor design there are quite a few others who make them (including Canon).


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## raptor3x (Nov 12, 2018)

melgross said:


> That makes no sense. Sensors and regular chips are very different. It could be because point and shoot business is almost dead, though most of those sensors weren’t built by Canon. Also, no matter what, the camera business, for everyone, is tottering. Even Sony is making fewer sensors.



I'm not talking about them making regular chips, there was a press release a few days ago that they're starting to offer foundry services to make image sensors for outside customers.


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## David Hull (Nov 12, 2018)

melgross said:


> Bad idea. Despite that Canon slow walked the onboard amplifier, which is why their chips have been behind, that era is over. Canon has an excellent semiconductor manufacturing structure. They’ve been doing it for decades. Having them go to Sony for everything eliminates any chance they could advance further. They make a whopping number of video sensors, including some of the worlds most advanced.
> 
> I’d like to see them apply some of the technology they’ve been showing at the Canon shows here in NYC every two years, or so.
> 
> Just don’t forget that Canon is much larger and more diversified than Nikon is, and that Sony makes almost all of its profits from the Playstation, games, accessories and network, not from their hardware sales.



I assume you are claiming Canon has moved the VGA on-chip? I had suspect this looking at some of the tear-downs recently. It looks like the ADC(s) is still off-off chip but they have moved them to the main PCB (they used to be parked right on the back of the sensor PCB). These also appear to be bigger ADC packages which I presume do not contain an AFE.

Do you have any references to discussions of this?


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## raptor3x (Nov 13, 2018)

melgross said:


> Bad idea. Despite that Canon slow walked the onboard amplifier, which is why their chips have been behind, that era is over..



It was the on-chip analog-to-digital converter that made the difference, not the amplifier.


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## raptor3x (Nov 13, 2018)

David Hull said:


> I assume you are claiming Canon has moved the VGA on-chip? I had suspect this looking at some of the tear-downs recently. It looks like the ADC(s) is still off-off chip but they have moved them to the main PCB (they used to be parked right on the back of the sensor PCB).



That's very unlikely that they would move them so much farther away as that opens you up to much more electronic noise. The lack of ADCs on the back of the chip, along with Canon explicitly saying they were moving the ADCs on chip in an IR interview and the sudden increase in dynamic range strongly point toward the ADCs being on chip in current Canon bodies.


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## David Hull (Nov 13, 2018)

raptor3x said:


> That's very unlikely that they would move them so much farther away as that opens you up to much more electronic noise. The lack of ADCs on the back of the chip, along with Canon explicitly saying they were moving the ADCs on chip in an IR interview and the sudden increase in dynamic range strongly point toward the ADCs being on chip in current Canon bodies.



OK, can you provide a link to a statement (actually from Canon) that they put the ADC's on chip. I thought that as well and made that argument. however, if you look at the teardown of the 5DIV and some of the shots of the 80D MB there is what appears to be a multi-channel ADC chip between the DiGiC part and the sensor. I know that they DID improve the DR starting with that generation but they could have done that by reducing the effective noise figure ahead of the ADC as well. Looking at Bill Claff's results, the DR curves look like the 5DIII generation just moved up a stop.

This all said, I looked at the M5 which is supposed to resemble the 80D and the recent teardown of the EOS R which is supposed to be similar to the 5DIV and I don't think I see a similar ADC chip. If the amps are on board, they can tolerate more noise since the signal levels coming down from the sensor would be louder.


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## raptor3x (Nov 13, 2018)

David Hull said:


> OK, can you provide a link to a statement (actually from Canon) that they put the ADC's on chip. I thought that as well and made that argument. however, if you look at the teardown of the 5DIV and some of the shots of the 80D MB there is what appears to be a multi-channel ADC chip between the DiGiC part and the sensor. I know that they DID improve the DR starting with that generation but they could have done that by reducing the effective noise figure ahead of the ADC as well. Looking at Bill Claff's results, the DR curves look like the 5DIII generation just moved up a stop.
> 
> This all said, I looked at the M5 which is supposed to resemble the 80D and the recent teardown of the EOS R which is supposed to be similar to the 5DIV and I don't think I see a similar ADC chip. If the amps are on board, they can tolerate more noise since the signal levels coming down from the sensor would be louder.



Here's the Imaging-Resource interview with Masaya Maeda.



IR Interview with Masaya Maeda said:


> *DE: *This is actually a very technical question. I’m not sure if it’s one that you would be free to answer or not, but with sensor technology some have pointed to the analog-to-digital conversion implementations being very critical for image quality and dynamic range. Can you tell us whether Canon currently uses on-chip or off-chip A/D converters?
> 
> *MM:* _Right now, we use both on-chip and off-chip, but recently I made the decision going forward to concentrate on the on-chip._
> 
> ...


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## David Hull (Nov 13, 2018)

raptor3x said:


> Here's the Imaging-Resource interview with Masaya Maeda.


Yes, I remember seeing that one. I wonder if that was after the 80D and 5DIV. Both iof those appear to have external ADC's. Not sure about the "R" and M5.


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 13, 2018)

David Hull said:


> Yes, I remember seeing that one. I wonder if that was after the 80D and 5DIV. Both iof those appear to have external ADC's. Not sure about the "R" and M5.


What do they use for audio from the mic input? An integrated solution? If not, there would still be an ADC even if the image sensor has its on die.


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## David Hull (Nov 13, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> What do they use for audio from the mic input? An integrated solution? If not, there would still be an ADC even if the image sensor has its on die.


In this case the thing is connected to the sensor board. Here is the sensor PCB. Note the blue ribbon cable that comes off the sensor board (middle left) and folds down to the bottom left.




This cable connects to the main board as shown below:




The signals on this cable feed over to the Analog Devices part above and to the left of the ribbon connector attachment connector.

These signals don't appear to be going to the AV connectors on the edge of the camera (although, I also at first thought that).


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 13, 2018)

David Hull said:


> In this case the thing is connected to the sensor board. Here is the sensor PCB. Note the blue ribbon cable that comes off the sensor board (middle left) and folds down to the bottom left.
> 
> View attachment 181553
> 
> ...


Thanks. The second image is too blurry for me to read the PN, but I’ll take your word it’s an ADC.

Boy is that blue flex cable an ugly run...


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## David Hull (Nov 13, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Thanks. The second image is too blurry for me to read the PN, but I’ll take your word it’s an ADC.
> 
> Boy is that blue flex cable an ugly run...



Agreed. It could be a few things but the one thing that you can see clearly is the Analog Devices logo. The PN may be a problem anyway since the parts may have a special PN just for Canon. Semiconductor companies often times play games with part numbering. For example they may have a catalog part at a given price, they may offer that same part (possibly with a different pinout and some features killed or not tested) to someone like Canon (in large volume, at a significantly lower price) but mark it differently. That "different" PN may not appear in any catalog. FWIW: I come from the semiconductor business (now retired). That part bears a resemblance to a 10 channel part that AD makes.


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## raptor3x (Nov 13, 2018)

David Hull said:


> Yes, I remember seeing that one. I wonder if that was after the 80D and 5DIV. Both iof those appear to have external ADC's. Not sure about the "R" and M5.



That interview was from before the 80D release.


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## drama (Nov 13, 2018)

This is an embarrassing post from CR guy. I guess not enough people are leaking stories so we have to fill with this nonsense.

Canon is on record as talking proudly as being an "end to end" imaging company, who make everything from their sensors through to printers. They've just had an event in Europe showcasing their sensors, that they're trying to sell to other companies as the best. Further, they're aggressively going after Sony in the mirrorless space. 

So yeah, I don't see that happening, ever.


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## mirage (Nov 13, 2018)

@David Hull and @3kram5d ...guys with your line of expertise (semi conductors/electronics) should team up with Roger Cicala at lensrentals.com .. it would give us even better tear-downs! (seriously).


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## mirage (Nov 13, 2018)

drama said:


> Canon is on record as talking proudly as being an "end to end" imaging company, who make everything from their sensors through to printers. They've just had an event in Europe showcasing their sensors, that they're trying to sell to other companies as the best. Further, they're aggressively going after Sony in the mirrorless space.



that does not stop them from using 3rd party sensors in many/most/all (?) of their (compact/Powershot) cameras, including from Sony.

for a whoke number of reasons i personally also don't believe *this specific rumour* - Canon supposedly using an existing Sony APS-C image sensor (presumably the same part as in Fuji XT3) in an interchangable lens camera. 

But *in general* it may very well happen any time. 

competing "on the outside" and "celebrating rivalry" while at the same time collaborating with competitors "behind the scenes" is regular business practice not only in the consumer electronics industry. no problem with that, except the players should not consider us "end users" to be "too stupid to ever notice".


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## Ozarker (Nov 13, 2018)

Time for more popcorn.


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## David8476 (Nov 13, 2018)

A lot of nonsense on this thread. It is very unlikely that Canon will use Sony sensors on their ILC’s.

There is a lot of discussion on technological issues which are irrelevant. In the unlikely event that Canon will use a Sony sensor would be due to change in corporate strategy, not due to technological reasons.


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## Berowne (Nov 13, 2018)

David8476 said:


> A lot of nonsense on this thread. It is very unlikely that Canon will use Sony sensors on their ILC’s. ...



In this Interview: Canon Q&A: Imaging chief promises EOS-M for enthusiasts, more and better APS-C lenses, and new printers “in the very near future” , Masaya Maeda said: 

*MM:* First of all, for those cameras with interchangeable lenses, the sensors are all Canon-made sensors. However, as you say, for compact cameras we use both in house-made sensors and external vendor sensors. As to whether to use the third-party vendors’ sensors or not, naturally what we are aiming for is to make a very good camera, so if we determine that a better camera can be made using a third party-made sensor, there’s a possibility that we’ll use such sensors. 

He is "Senior Managing Director and Chief Executive of Canon Inc's Image Communication Products Operations". He clearly said, that canon may use third-party-sensors in their Cameras with interchangeable lenses. So we are not talking about nonsense.


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## David8476 (Nov 13, 2018)

The interview was made more than 3 years ago which is a long time in the past. 

The interview had 2 subjects: ILC’s and digital camera/PS (fixed lens). When third party sensors were mentioned, was MM referring to ILC’s or digital cameras/PS?


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## YuengLinger (Nov 13, 2018)

drama said:


> This is an embarrassing post from CR guy. I guess not enough people are leaking stories so we have to fill with this nonsense.
> 
> Canon is on record as talking proudly as being an "end to end" imaging company, who make everything from their sensors through to printers. They've just had an event in Europe showcasing their sensors, that they're trying to sell to other companies as the best. Further, they're aggressively going after Sony in the mirrorless space.
> 
> So yeah, I don't see that happening, ever.


This is a harsh post from you.
Let us think this through together. Imagine you run a popular _rumors_ website. You hear from a "source" that Canon is considering using a _specific _ Sony sensor in an upcoming APS-C body. So, you think to yourself, "Visitors and members won't find this interesting, and it won't spark any discussion. Don't post." Would that have been your choice?

From this member's point of view, the decision to post was correct.


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 13, 2018)

David Hull said:


> Agreed. It could be a few things but the one thing that you can see clearly is the Analog Devices logo. The PN may be a problem anyway since the parts may have a special PN just for Canon. Semiconductor companies often times play games with part numbering. For example they may have a catalog part at a given price, they may offer that same part (possibly with a different pinout and some features killed or not tested) to someone like Canon (in large volume, at a significantly lower price) but mark it differently. That "different" PN may not appear in any catalog. FWIW: I come from the semiconductor business (now retired). That part bears a resemblance to a 10 channel part that AD makes.



Yes I can definately make out their logo and have familiarity with custom semicon parts (I’m currently struggling with finding alternate sources for some RF PA dies; and everyone has their own PN mapping to my spec).

If I squint real hard it looks like there are 14 pins coming off that blue flex. It would kinda sorta make sense if it were carrying digital values (14-bit registers) into a logic device (Analog makes gate arrays, etc). Additionally, I’d expect differential pairs for the analog signal (probably LVDS), and those traces don’t look length-matched.

It’s impossible to tell, but I’m guessing those discrete components adjacent to it are little 0201 resistors to bias the chip.

If it’s an ACD, how do you think it works? How do they buffer the sensor output such that they can write it in blocks of 14 over the cable and into Analog’s part? Clock signal generated on the main board which synchronizes some analog buffers on the sensor board to the ADC?

Note: whatever they are doing seems to work fine, this is just personal curiosity.



mirage said:


> @David Hull and @3kram5d ...guys with your line of expertise (semi conductors/electronics) should team up with Roger Cicala at lensrentals.com .. it would give us even better tear-downs! (seriously).



I can speak fairly intelligently to the electronics packaging design, i.e. the chassis, how the boards are configured, cables, mechanisms, thermal management, etc.

When it comes to circuit level stuff (schematic, like we’re discussing here) I probably know more than many purely due to professional interactions, but I’m not an electrical engineer. Of course, when I look at other people’s designs I usually come away with more questions than conclusions


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## Antono Refa (Nov 13, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Its possible, APS-C sensors are becoming more of a commodity, FF sensors may become a focus for Canon in the future. Canon will take the lowest cost method for similar performance. With sales falling everywhere, there is more attention being paid to the high end products.





Hector1970 said:


> I'd agree that APS-C might be coming a commodity product. Canon will probably want to produce their mid-range cameras as cheaply as possible. I'd say a buyer who only has limited knowledge of cameras and video will just be looking at how many MP's what FPS and does it have 4K video. It will meet those criteria.
> I don't think they won't use Sony sensors as point of principle. I'd say they'd go for the cheapest source.



I disagree, as

1. There's higher volume, and therefore profits, in lower end models.

2. Going with a Sony sensor would force Canon to share profits with Sony.

3. All the more so as Canon squeezes the last cents out of every part in the xxxxD series.


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## Antono Refa (Nov 13, 2018)

docsmith said:


> This is my general thought too. I am trying to think of some specialty niche where Canon might be ok not including DPAF and that would really benefit from a Sony sensor. Maybe an astro version of the 90D?



Previous astro versions of xxD simply had a filter removed.

Having two 90D models with completely different sensors would be weird, e.g. the two cameras would have different firmware, and Canon would need to add support a Sony sensor in it's freeware DPP.

Maybe Canon would use a Sony sensor in a PowerShot G, or a cinema camera.


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## mirage (Nov 13, 2018)

Antono Refa said:


> Maybe Canon would use a Sony sensor in a PowerShot G, or a cinema camera.



yes. They do. But so far only up to 1" sensors - not APS-C.
Canon Powershot G1X Mk. III is the first Powershot model with APS-C sensor [24 MP, DP-AF - same or very similar as the one in 77D, M5/M6] - presumably made in-house by Canon.


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## Go Wild (Nov 13, 2018)

I am sorry, I didn´t read all off the topic answers...but I found this on youtube today and then i read this post! Well.....i guess i am connecting dots here, but it is a tremendous curiosity that suposed linked specs of a possible 7DmkIII, are similar to this sensor specs....


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## mirage (Nov 13, 2018)

hehe ... for Sony you have the very same rumor today for their "expected next" APS-C ILCs A6700, A7000 ... with this very sensor [Sony IMX571].
https://www.sonyrumors.co/new-rumored-specs-of-sony-a6700-a7000/


Personally I find the exciting rumor "next Sony cameras will use Sony imaging sensor" a tiny bit more credible than "next Canon ILC will have a Sony APS-C sensor inside". 

btw: here is Sony Semi Conductor Solutions' current line-up of relevant imaging sensors if more material is needed for new rumors. 
https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/IS/sensor2/products/index.html


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## David Hull (Nov 13, 2018)

raptor3x said:


> That interview was from before the 80D release.


Well, here is a shot of the 80D MB where you can actually read the PN on the AD device. I don't see it in their catalogue, though:


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## raptor3x (Nov 13, 2018)

Interesting, you seemed pretty convinced that it was an on-chip ADC over on the DPreview discussion. Is the 80D teardown shot what changed your mind?


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## snoke (Nov 14, 2018)

Canon want IBIS. Sony sensor cheapest path.


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## jschoonj (Nov 14, 2018)

snoke said:


> Canon want IBIS. Sony sensor cheapest path.


I don't think the sensor itself has any influence on ibis.


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## Hector1970 (Nov 15, 2018)

Antono Refa said:


> I disagree, as
> 
> 1. There's higher volume, and therefore profits, in lower end models.
> 
> ...



1. There is profit in the lower end model but Canon would be trying very hard to reduce the cost of making the model to maximise profits. It's a cost competitive area
2. Canon won't care about Sony's profits. They will only care about their own. Those sensors are probably low margin high volume items for Sony
3. Canon probably have calculated its cheaper to buy rather than make high volume APS-C Sensors

It's all about profit margin and volume in the end. Canon will look to try and get the best outcome and nothing is sacred.


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## mirage (Nov 15, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> 3. Canon probably have calculated its cheaper to buy rather than make high volume APS-C Sensors



Don't think so. I think the "sony APS-C in Canon camera/s" rumor is a totally unfounded, if not consciously propagated "fake-news". I fully expect Canon to continue using their own sensors in all of their upcoming APS-C ILCs, primarily mirrorfree EOS M models [M5 II, M6 II ?, M100 II ...] plus maybe 1 or 2 last crop DSLRs ... possibly a "90D", less likely also a 7D Mk. III. 

Crop-sensor mirrorslappers in the "xxD/xxxD/xxxxD" categories have lost their reason ever since Canon launched the EOS M50. Better specs in a smaller package at a very affordable price. That's why the bottom is falling out of "entry level" [DSLR] sales ... and M5, M6, M100 are not attractive any longer either, update urgently needed. 

see Canon Q3 financial report


> _Within this, sales of mirrorless cameras increased mainly supported by sales of such new products as the EOS Kiss M. However, unit sales decreased overall compared with the same period of the previous year *due to a temporary slowdown in demand, mainly for entry-level models*. _



I am sure that despite this statement Canon is well aware that "slowdown in demand for [crop] mirrorslappers" is not temporarily, but rather permanent ... and "terminal".


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 15, 2018)

mirage said:


> I am sure that despite this statement Canon is well aware that "slowdown in demand for [crop] mirrorslappers" is not temporarily, but rather permanent ... and "terminal".



I suspect they’re feeling the brunt of market saturation and increasing ability in smart devices. I wouldn’t be surprised if the slowdown is persistent, regardless of whether a mirror is part of the box, and if canon etc. turns more focus towards the high end.


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## mirage (Nov 15, 2018)

ofc there has been an ongoing onslaught of mobile devices with cameras. Canon and all other "traditional" imaging gear makers have stubbornly ignored the market for the longest time and simply continued to churn out ever-same boring iterations of their big, heavy, clunky, noisy, non-modular, non-communicating, un-intuitive and expensive mirrorslappers. I quite like to see that they now are finally "feeling the brunt of their disgruntled former customers".

looking forward to new players taking rhe stage with computational imaging gear free of any moving mechanical parts and devoid of heavy polished glass blocks up front. from time to time paradigms need to shift, tilt, rise and fall.


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## Antono Refa (Nov 16, 2018)

mirage said:


> Crop-sensor mirrorslappers in the "xxD/xxxD/xxxxD" categories have lost their reason ever since Canon launched the EOS M50.



According to Wikipedia, the M5 got "the same sensor is used in the Canon EOS 80D", which goes back to my original point - Canon recycles sensors to make the most sales, and profit, on the initial investment.

The xxxxD series just squeezes the last cents out of existing parts. As the 2000D & 4000D were launched in February, it seems to me Canon thinks there's still some profit to be made even in that category.


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## mirage (Nov 16, 2018)

Antono Refa said:


> According to Wikipedia, the M5 got "the same sensor is used in the Canon EOS 80D", which goes back to my original point - Canon recycles sensors to make the most sales, and profit, on the initial investment.
> 
> The xxxxD series just squeezes the last cents out of existing parts. As the 2000D & 4000D were launched in February, it seems to me Canon thinks there's still some profit to be made even in that category.



I really doubt Canon is making much profit on several different models of their low-end crop-mirrorslappers [4000D, 2000D, 1200D, 1300D] at retail prices between € 289 and € 369 in my country / Central Europe ... often including some version of EF-S 18-55 kit lens ... and always including 20% VAT (sales tax).


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## Hector1970 (Nov 16, 2018)

mirage said:


> I really doubt Canon is making much profit on several different models of their low-end crop-mirrorslappers [4000D, 2000D, 1200D, 1300D] at retail prices between € 289 and € 369 in my country / Central Europe ... often including some version of EF-S 18-55 kit lens ... and always including 20% VAT (sales tax).


You'd be surprised how Canon can squeeze a decent profit out of these.
Canon is a very business focussed company. They for sure would use Sony Sensors if it were cheaper for them. As volumes drop is less economical for them to make their own APS-C sensors. You have to focus your resources on future products and make the existing me too products as cheaply as possible.


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## Antono Refa (Nov 17, 2018)

mirage said:


> I really doubt Canon is making much profit on several different models of their low-end crop-mirrorslappers [4000D, 2000D, 1200D, 1300D] at retail prices between € 289 and € 369 in my country / Central Europe ... often including some version of EF-S 18-55 kit lens ... and always including 20% VAT (sales tax).



Not having sales / profit numbers, my bet is...

Those cameras make *some* profit, or else Canon would have killed it years ago. My guess is the low price comes from the cameras being made from hand me down (sensor, AF sensor, DIGIC) and common (EF-S mount, etc) parts from / with higher models. The R&D & manufacturing facilities setup costs were probably covered, and Canon makes just makes a small profit on keeping the manufacturing lines running.

A cheap kit gets customers into the system. I started with a 450D w/ EF-S 18-55mm (just before the 1000D hit the shelves), and stuck with the system. Now I have a 5Dmk3, four L zooms, a couple of primes, and an EX flash. My cousin bought an xxxxD camera w/ 2 lenses kit. Her sister liked it enough to buy an xxxD & 3 lenses.


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