# Can a 7D do Landscapes?



## friedmud (Dec 12, 2011)

Short Answer: Yes!

Long Answer: Read On

A few days ago I was "Earthshatteringly Disappointed" with my new 7D. However, upon learning that I couldn't return it, I decided to give it a fair shake to see if it would be worth keeping or dumping for a loss.

I took it out to Jackson, Wyoming yesterday and shot quite a few shots and I wanted to share the results here.

Firstly, the photos linked from this post were all shot with these settings in common:

Camera: 7D
Lens: 17-55 f/2.8 IS
Filter: Lee 0.6 ND Soft Grad
Tripod: Manfrotto 055XPROB with 322RC2 Head
Focus: Manual
Mode: Av
Exposure: Evaluative
Image Stabilizer: Off
Drive Mode: Single
Shutter Release: 2 Second Delay
Mirror Lockup: On
Auto Lighting Optimizer: Off
Silent Shooting: Off
Long Exposure NR: Off
Output: Full RAW
Edited In: Adobe Lightroom 3.5 (Camera Raw 6.5)

Now, my best two shots of the day (full resolution jpegs):

Shot 1:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7017/6495423747_4172bc55fc_o.jpg

Shot 2:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7016/6495421331_29a396d12d_o.jpg

Shot 1 Details:
ISO: 100
Aperture: 9.0
Focal Length: 24
Focus: Back of Barn

Shot 1 Edits:
Blacks: 5
Saturation: +9
Tone Curve Adjustments
Sharpening:
Amount: 46
Radius: 1
Masking: 26
Noise Reduction:
Luminance: 15
Color: 25

Shot 2 Details:
ISO: 100
Aperture: 8.0
Focal Length: 35
Focus: Mountains

Shot 2 Edits:
Blacks: 5
Saturation: +12
Tone Curve Adjustments
Sharpening:
Amount: 56
Radius: 1
Masking: 34
Noise Reduction:
Luminance: 19
Color: 25
Lens Profile Corrections:
Distortion: 0
CA: 100
Vignetting: 100

Personally, I am really happy with these shots. Are they winning any awards? No. But, that is _my_ failing and not the camera ;-)

Both shots show a ton of detail. Shot2 is a familiar shooting place. I have tons of photos that look exactly like this from my XSiâ€¦ but they don't even come close to the level of detail displayed here. Shot1 I've shot a few times (most recently a few months ago) and comparing to my XSi I definitely received quite a bit more detail from my 7D.

But what about noise? The 7D has quite a lot of it for shooting at Low ISO, but I found that I could clean it up adequately with NR without too much of a loss of detail in other areas (which is one thing I was worried aboutâ€¦ what good are 18 MP if I have to blur everything with NR?). Here is a comparison of the tip of the "Grand" in Shot2 both before and after editing:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7161/6495416405_1318e18975_o.jpg

The noise in the sky is easy to notice, but there is also quite a bit of noise "on" the mountain as well. But as you can see it cleaned up pretty nicely. Would I rather the noise wasn't there? Definitely! Is it tolerableâ€¦ it might be.

That was at ISO 100â€¦ someone in the "Earthshattering" thread suggested I shoot at ISO 160. Let's compare 100 vs 160 before we do any edits:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7154/6495415439_e27d29e1e9_o.jpg

To my eyes the 100 (which is on the left) is ever so slightly cleaner. Let's see what those same shots look like after we edit the photo:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7174/6495415939_aa6ac7d7aa_o.jpg

Now we can definitely see that the ISO 100 shot cleaned up better. These zooms are from Shot2â€¦ but the same phenomena happens in Shot1 (where ISO 100 is again cleaner). I think I'll be sticking to ISO 100.

Last thing I was interested in is the diffraction limit using this lens / body combo. In the "Earthshattering" thread it was proposed that the diffraction limit on the 7D is f/6.9â€¦ and in fact that appears to be the case! I shot a _ton_ of exposures from f/5.6 up to f/14â€¦ and anything over f/7 definitely gets fuzzier! That said, I found that up to about f/9 there wasn't any real difference, but beyond that you were definitely losing sharpness. Here is a comparison of f/8 to f/11 for the trees in the foreground of Shot2:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7012/6495472603_bdae7d4f33_o.jpg

The reason I chose to zoom to the trees here is because they were "foreground interest" in this shot, but not terribly close to the camera. Recall from above that in this shot I manually focused on the mountains in the backgroundâ€¦ so I would need some amount of a small aperture to make sure everything in the foreground is sharp. Turns out, that for this situation f/8 was enough to keep things sharp in the foregroundâ€¦ and pushing further, even to f/11 caused a loss of clarity!

This situation was the same in Shot1â€¦ where I focused toward the back of the barn (which is probably a little close for true hyperfocus, I just wanted to make sure I had the barn in focus). When I look at the mountains in the back I was expecting that something beyond f/9 was going to be necessary to get the most sharpness back thereâ€¦ but not true. Again, anything over f/9 softened the details in the mountains.

This is something I never saw on my XSi. I don't know the exact diffraction limit on my XSi but anything over about f/13 or f/14 definitely produced a softer image. This is telling me that the 7D is definitely more sensitive to being fed a sharp imageâ€¦. i.e. the 7D is definitely recording more detail.

Now were both of these shots (f/8 and f/11) acceptable: definitely. But it's always good to know where the limits actually are for your kit.

So what's the final verdict here?

I believe that when it comes to IQ the 7D can hold it's own for landscape photography. When you include the numerous benefits of using the 7D in the mix, I think it makes a great landscape photography tool.

Pros For Lanscapes:
- Body Design
It was ~15 degrees when I was shooting these yesterday. Because of the layout of the 7D I was able to keep my gloves on the whole time! Good Stuff: dedicated buttons for advanced options, joystick and wheels workable with gloves, big buttons on the left easy to press with gloves, big bright viewfinder, LCD panel on top gives an instant reading of current options, and more

- Custom Modes
C1 is now "Landscape Mode" for me. This has been a dream of mine for years. All those options at the top of the post are dialed into C1â€¦ it brings tears to my eyes to know that I can put the camera in C1 and shootâ€¦

- Built In Level
I have bubble levels, but being able to use the built-in electronic level is handy.

- One Touch Live View
I use Live View to do manual focusing for tripod mounted shots - the 7D has a nice big button that makes that easy to do with gloves on.

- Feels good in the hands with a heavy lens on.
Again, with gloves, the 7D is not going anywhereâ€¦ always a bit dicey with my XSi!

- Megapixels
Details! I feel like I got a level of detail in those shots that I wouldn't have been able to get with my XSi. I don't currently have my XSi or I would do a direct comparison, but just looking at the photos on my screen (and comparing to previous shots with my XSi) the details certainly stand out.

- Focusing
I didn't need to use AF much when shooting yesterday (had plenty of time to setup a tripod and manually focus) but the few times I did I was extremely impressed with how quick and accurate the focusing was on the 7D. It just doesn't mess around! I also love how I can switch focusing modes right in the viewfinder without taking my eye away (to select AF point or points, etc.)

- Metering
For both of the shots I posted I think I dialed in +1/3 exposure adjustment (just to bring out a bit more shadow detail for use in post). The +1/3 certainly wasn't necessary. The built-in evaluative metering is _awesome_. It never failed me all day! I actually never use my XSi in evaluative metering modeâ€¦ it just always does the wrong thing. I actually always use center weighted averageâ€¦ at least then I would have some idea of what it would do so I could compensate manually. The 7D frees me up to focus more on composition and less on trying to second guess the metering system.

- Weatherproofing
This thing feels like a tank. I wouldn't hesitate to take it out in a storm. It certainly didn't mind the fairly cold temperatures yesterday.

Cons for Landscapes:

- Low ISO Noise
It is there. I do wish it wasn't. But it can be cleaned fairly well in post.

- Weight
Not a big deal, but when hiking around I did notice the weight a bit. For the weatherproofing and hardiness of the body the weight is certainly acceptable.


So am I going to sell it? At this point: I don't think so. I just enjoyed using it a little too much yesterday.

If I could send it back, would I?? That is a hard one. I still think the answer to that question is probably yes. I think I would probably wait a few months and see if a 5D3 comes out. However, this isn't an option for me. Yes, I could sell it, but I would probably lose $300-$500â€¦ which is hard to justify considering all of the great things about this camera.

Note that in this post I didn't talk about any of the other things the 7D does well. I did use it to shoot around Jackson Wyoming quite a bit with my wife yesterday and found it an ABSOLUTE joy to use while walking around and taking candid photos of my wife. I won't go into all of that here though, because I don't think anyone is questioning the 7D for that use.

It's been shown numerous times that the 7D excels in basically every way other than landscapesâ€¦ hopefully I've shed some light on some issues surrounding that use of a 7D.


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## wickidwombat (Dec 12, 2011)

I use the Topaz noise reduction and its really great you might want to give the demo a try and see what you think, they have plugins for LR3 as well as CS5
also if your main focus is landscape I think you would be more than happy with the 5Dmk2 as the lack luster AF would be a non issue for you.


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## friedmud (Dec 12, 2011)

wickidwombat said:


> I use the Topaz noise reduction and its really great you might want to give the demo a try and see what you think, they have plugins for LR3 as well as CS5



Thanks wombat - I'll check that out.


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## EYEONE (Dec 12, 2011)

Great, detailed, and clear shots. Very good work.


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## friedmud (Dec 12, 2011)

Thanks EYEONE!

Also - I tried out Topaz on Shot2. Here is Topaz vs LR3 NR:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7141/6496173171_1f8273d3a5_o.jpg

Note that there _are_ jpeg artifacts in here. The Topaz version (on the left) is so smooth it gets impacted more by the jpeg artifacts.

Topaz does a pretty awesome job of removing noise while keeping detail. I might consider purchasing it. I don't think I would use it all the time but if I knew something was going to be blown up huge... that would be the time to pull it out. Definitely a good tool to have in your back pocket...


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## justicend (Dec 12, 2011)

looking at your shot friedmud
It seems 7D can do decent landscape. Looking at your picture noise is not that issue for me. Good Luck


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## awinphoto (Dec 12, 2011)

I'll second the Topaz Denoise filter... I liked it... Nik software has a great filter I believe but I haven't had much experience and cant vouch for them... I'm glad you gave the 7d a fair trial. =) Keep shooting and keep us updated... we'd love to see more pictures...


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## wickidwombat (Dec 12, 2011)

try use topaz de-jpeg first to clear up jpg artifacts, the whole suite is pretty cool
another tip for the topaz noise reduction is even shooting low iso portraits even though there is no noise to speak of i often run the topaz NR with a very low setting of 0.2 or 0.3 as it cleans up the skin nicely will cover very fine wrinkles and doesnt give off that horrible re-touched look that those retouching sausage making programs give off, and it only takes a few seconds, I usually run that as a last step


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## jrista (Dec 12, 2011)

@friedmud: Great shots. The sky's look excellent, even with noise. One thing you might try is smaller apertures. I know many of the comments on your other thread seemed to indicate as much, but stopping down the aperture beyond the DLA does NOT cost you detail in relation to the 450D (XSi)!! It can become "the same", but never _worse_. (See: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=747761)

At f/8, the DOF is probably not really what you need for those shots, and the mountains in the background might be a bit soft more because they are ever so slightly out of focus. I would be willing to bet you gain more sharpness by increasing DOF than you would lose to diffraction at f/16. You might be able to get away with f/11 if you readjust your focal plane to be a little farther back than it currently is as well. 

Either way, excellent shots. I'd LOVE to see those at sunset...especially the one with the barn. Such an amazing landscape....I need to visit the Tetons again now that I have a 7D.


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## wickidwombat (Dec 12, 2011)

oh i also forgot to mention if you enter a discount code when you buy topaz you get 15% off
I used stuckincustoms when i got mine, I think its the same now but lots of websites have their own discount referal codes, I think they get a little kick back from topaz but the 15% discount makes it pretty good value IMO


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## JR (Dec 12, 2011)

Your shot1 is just spectacular when I look at it full size on a 27" screen. Very nice composition too!


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## friedmud (Dec 12, 2011)

wickidwombat said:


> try use topaz de-jpeg first to clear up jpg artifacts, the whole suite is pretty cool
> another tip for the topaz noise reduction is even shooting low iso portraits even though there is no noise to speak of i often run the topaz NR with a very low setting of 0.2 or 0.3 as it cleans up the skin nicely will cover very fine wrinkles and doesnt give off that horrible re-touched look that those retouching sausage making programs give off, and it only takes a few seconds, I usually run that as a last step



The jpeg artifacts came from the conversion flickr did from the tiffs that I uploaded from the screenshot program (grab) I was using. They're not there on my screen or in the actual files.


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## friedmud (Dec 12, 2011)

jrista said:


> @friedmud: Great shots. The sky's look excellent, even with noise. One thing you might try is smaller apertures. I know many of the comments on your other thread seemed to indicate as much, but stopping down the aperture beyond the DLA does NOT cost you detail in relation to the 450D (XSi)!! It can become "the same", but never _worse_. (See: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=747761)
> 
> At f/8, the DOF is probably not really what you need for those shots, and the mountains in the background might be a bit soft more because they are ever so slightly out of focus. I would be willing to bet you gain more sharpness by increasing DOF than you would lose to diffraction at f/16. You might be able to get away with f/11 if you readjust your focal plane to be a little farther back than it currently is as well.
> 
> Either way, excellent shots. I'd LOVE to see those at sunset...especially the one with the barn. Such an amazing landscape....I need to visit the Tetons again now that I have a 7D.



I tried tons of aperutres and f/8 gave the best results (I gave one comparison in the OP). In the case of Shot1 I simply just focused too closely to be able to get everything "in focus" without losing a ton of detail overrall. With my old camera it was more forgiving in that regard... because of that I grew quite sloppy in my hyperfocusing technique... guess I'll have to be more careful in the future!

As for the tetons at sunset / sunrise: they are spectacular!

Here Is one of mine at sunset: http://500px.com/photo/1388503

And here's one at sunrise: http://500px.com/photo/2126402


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## friedmud (Dec 12, 2011)

JR said:


> Your shot1 is just spectacular when I look at it full size on a 27" screen. Very nice composition too!



Thanks JR!


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## CanonFanNum1 (Dec 12, 2011)

friedmud said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > I use the Topaz noise reduction and its really great you might want to give the demo a try and see what you think, they have plugins for LR3 as well as CS5
> ...



Friedmud, glad you are keeping the 7D. If you look at my post (on page 10 ) of your other thread), you'll see I say something very simple: "two words: topaz denoise". 

Make good friends with it.


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## RC (Dec 12, 2011)

Friedmud, thanks so much for sharing your thorough analysis with all of us! I too do a lot of landscape shooting with my 7D so what you have shared is very valuable to me. Also, thanks for including your camera settings and PP steps. As many others I've also been following all these recent 7D threads and trying to learn/understand as much as I can. My 7D is my only body, someday I'll add likely a 5D3.

A few questions:

[list type=decimal]
[*]Why did you manual focus instead of auto focus on a specific point? 
[*]Did you use live view to assist with manual focus?
[*]Why the 2 second delay and locked shutter? Were you just trying to be ultra conservative for testing purposes?
[/list]

Again, thanks for your time and sharing


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## RC (Dec 12, 2011)

wickidwombat said:


> oh i also forgot to mention if you enter a discount code when you buy topaz you get 15% off
> I used stuckincustoms when i got mine, I think its the same now but lots of websites have their own discount referal codes, I think they get a little kick back from topaz but the 15% discount makes it pretty good value IMO



Thanks for the discount tip!


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## friedmud (Dec 12, 2011)

RC said:


> Friedmud, thanks so much for sharing your thorough analysis with all of us! I too do a lot of landscape shooting with my 7D so what you have shared is very valuable to me. Also, thanks for including your camera settings and PP steps. As many others I've also been following all these recent 7D threads and trying to learn/understand as much as I can. My 7D is my only body, someday I'll add likely a 5D3.
> 
> A few questions:
> 
> ...



I compose the shot I want with the camera mounted on my tripod. Then to focus perfectly (either from hyperfocal or to achieve some other goal) I want to focus within that composition on a particular point. There is no way to do that with AF without moving the camera (which I don't want to do because it's already in the "perfect" position). So manual focus is what you want.

Yep, Live View is the way to go for manual focusing. I pop into live view, zoom all the way in on what I want to focus on, then manually focus until it's sharp. Then drop out of live view.

The two second delay works together with mirror lockup. The idea is to have _zero_ vibrations in the camera when the shutter releases, so you can get the sharpest possible photo. Mirror lockup puts the mirror in the "up" position long before the shutter fires, ensuring that there are no vibrations from the mirror movement when the image is captured. 

If you just use mirror lockup by itself, the first time you press the shutter release it will put e mirror up - then you press it again to actually release thhe shutter. However, when you have the camera in 2 second delay mode (or you use a remote with a delay) the mirror will lockup when you press the shutter release and then 2 seconds later the shutter will automatically release.

What this does is give ample time for there to be no vibrations or other movement of the camera when the shutter is released... which means no chance for _any_ blurring of the picture through camera movement.

One more thing to point out: turn Image Stabilization OFF! IS will actually cause a slight blurring when mounted on a tripod. This is NOT conjecture. If you remove all other sources of vibrations and you do a test with IS on or Off it is easy to see.

This is not just the way I shot these tests. This is actually the way I always shoot with a tripod.


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## RC (Dec 12, 2011)

friedmud said:


> I compose the shot I want with the camera mounted on my tripod. Then to focus perfectly (either from hyperfocal or to achieve some other goal) I want to focus within that composition on a particular point. There is no way to do that with AF without moving the camera (which I don't want to do because it's already in the "perfect" position). So manual focus is what you want.
> 
> Yep, Live View is the way to go for manual focusing. I pop into live view, zoom all the way in on what I want to focus on, then manually focus until it's sharp. Then drop out of live view.
> 
> The two second delay works together with mirror lockup. The idea is to have _zero_ vibrations in the camera when the shutter releases, so you can get the sharpest possible photo. Mirror lockup puts the mirror in the "up" position long before the shutter fires, ensuring that there are no vibrations from the mirror movement when the image is captured.



Thanks for the quick response

I do use mirror lockup with a 2 sec delay and the RC6 remote when shooting the moon. I use my 70-200 F4 IS (without IS of course) and my 1.4x Extender. I've never though of using it for day time landscapes.

Just curious why you don't use a single AF point with manual positioning. I must admit I have a hard time manually focusing with this camera--of course I'm at the age where your close up vision goes to crap. The one thing I do not like about the 7D is non user changeable focus screens. I do miss the old SLR split prisms. I know there are 3rd party ones out there but I'm not really comfortable changing it out.

BTW, I love your shots! I grew not too far from there, on the Idaho side.


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## friedmud (Dec 12, 2011)

RC said:


> friedmud said:
> 
> 
> > I compose the shot I want with the camera mounted on my tripod. Then to focus perfectly (either from hyperfocal or to achieve some other goal) I want to focus within that composition on a particular point. There is no way to do that with AF without moving the camera (which I don't want to do because it's already in the "perfect" position). So manual focus is what you want.
> ...



Choosing a single AF point didn't work so well on my XSi ;-)

On the 7D it is definitely more of a possibility... but when I'm taking that much time and care to get the shot I want... I want it to be _perfect_ (hence the reason for my "Earthshattering" post from last week ;-)

Where at in Idaho? I'm living near Idaho Falls right now myself. Haven't been here too long... but I'm loving it. It truly is a nature photographer's dream!


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## unfocused (Dec 12, 2011)

I glad you are happier with the 7D now. 

My take-away: buy from B&H or Adorama. No hassle returning or exchanging.


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## jrista (Dec 12, 2011)

@RC: Automatic focus isn't particularly useful in landscapes. For the most part (and there are some exceptions), you want a deep DOF, so the entire scene is in focus. There really isn't anything specific to focus on, so AF usually just gets in the way.

More specifically, when photographing a landscape, focus is more about the art of compromise as much as anything. You really can't get *everything* in focus, so you have to fine-tune focus for the selected DOF to get as much of the entire field of view as sharp as possible, without losing too much on the front or back. The only way to do that is with manual focus. Better yet, the ideal way to do that is with dedicated manual focus lenses with a nice, long focus throw, so fine adjustments are easy. (AF lenses tend to have very short focus throw, as it helps them focus less precisely faster.)

In the heydays of large format, you had a REAL NICE, HUGE ground glass screen to compose and focus your shot with. It was 4"x5", maybe 8"x10", clear and easy to see focus. The direct equivalent today would be like having a small TV attached to your DSLR, however Live View serves this purpose extremely well. Its many times larger than the largest viewfinders, clearer, brighter in most cases (OLED screens are even bright in direct sunlight), and usually more capable. With most Live View features on DSLR's today, you can zoom in and focus to a pixel-perfect level at various locations of a landscape scene, and never have to worry that some part of your photo may be out of focus, or that it was focused clearly on the wrong thing.


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## RC (Dec 12, 2011)

friedmud said:


> ...Choosing a single AF point didn't work so well on my XSi ;-)
> 
> On the 7D it is definitely more of a possibility... but when I'm taking that much time and care to get the shot I want... I want it to be _perfect_ (hence the reason for my "Earthshattering" post from last week ;-)
> 
> Where at in Idaho? I'm living near Idaho Falls right now myself. Haven't been here too long... but I'm loving it. It truly is a nature photographer's dream!



Thanks for the clarification. I'll shoot you an "offline message" regarding my Idaho and current location


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## RC (Dec 12, 2011)

jrista said:
 

> @RC: Automatic focus isn't particularly useful in landscapes. For the most part (and there are some exceptions), you want a deep DOF, so the entire scene is in focus. There really isn't anything specific to focus on, so AF usually just gets in the way.
> 
> More specifically, when photographing a landscape, focus is more about the art of compromise as much as anything. You really can't get *everything* in focus, so you have to fine-tune focus for the selected DOF to get as much of the entire field of view as sharp as possible, without losing too much on the front or back. The only way to do that is with manual focus. Better yet, the ideal way to do that is with dedicated manual focus lenses with a nice, long focus throw, so fine adjustments are easy. (AF lenses tend to have very short focus throw, as it helps them focus less precisely faster.)
> 
> In the heydays of large format, you had a REAL NICE, HUGE ground glass screen to compose and focus your shot with. It was 4"x5", maybe 8"x10", clear and easy to see focus. The direct equivalent today would be like having a small TV attached to your DSLR, however Live View serves this purpose extremely well. Its many times larger than the largest viewfinders, clearer, brighter in most cases (OLED screens are even bright in direct sunlight), and usually more capable. With most Live View features on DSLR's today, you can zoom in and focus to a pixel-perfect level at various locations of a landscape scene, and never have to worry that some part of your photo may be out of focus, or that it was focused clearly on the wrong thing.



Thanks jrista for the additional information. I'm going to try this technique out this week. I probably put too much trust in AF and assuming I'm getting hyper-focal distance with a smaller aperture.


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## Edwin Herdman (Dec 12, 2011)

RE: 7D landscapes?

I'll find out soon enough, I suppose - I finally have a 7D on order after finding one at an amazing price (not new, but near the $1K price mentioned earlier, and this one WILL be shipping). I shot many landscapes on the T1i, though, with its noisy chroma, and didn't have too much trouble so I don't anticipate much trouble here either. A 5D would be better for that but I need the resolution (and density) more.


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## briansquibb (Dec 12, 2011)

jrista said:


> The direct equivalent today would be like having a small TV attached to your DSLR, however Live View serves this purpose extremely well.



The serious landscapers I have met carry around a 17inch laptop and tether it to the body. That is why there are so many backpacks with laptop compartments .....


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## friedmud (Dec 12, 2011)

briansquibb said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > The direct equivalent today would be like having a small TV attached to your DSLR, however Live View serves this purpose extremely well.
> ...



An ipad with the camera connection kit works pretty well as well... I carry one with me to review photos in the field.


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## briansquibb (Dec 12, 2011)

friedmud said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...


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## dtaylor (Dec 12, 2011)

friedmud said:


> Short Answer: Yes!



Congratulations on giving the 7D an honest run and discovering what it can do! Good shots, good comparisons, and good analysis. Your detailed post can serve as a guideline to future 7D/60D/T2i owners.

A couple comments:

* I often use Local Contrast Enhancement on my photos. http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/contrast-enhancement.shtml. I bring this up because this can also greatly increase the perception of sharpness and fine detail in some shots.

* Playing with an online DoF calculator is a great way to get a feel for what apertures are actually needed in different situations: http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html.

* +1 on the LiveView focusing suggestion. I do it all the time. This also helps to achieve the optimum combination of focus and aperture as you can scroll around the scene and use DoF preview. Doing this rather than blindly stopping down can create a greater difference in fine detail then any difference between Canon's current APS-C and FF sensors.

I'm glad you took the effort to get the best out of the 7D. Enjoy it. Yes, eventually I think a >30 MP 5D3 will come out. But that could be a ways off and the 7D is a brilliant 24" - 30" print landscape camera in the mean time. You really could not get much more out of the 5D2 sensor for this purpose.


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## dtaylor (Dec 12, 2011)

friedmud said:


> I tried tons of aperutres and f/8 gave the best results (I gave one comparison in the OP). In the case of Shot1 I simply just focused too closely to be able to get everything "in focus" without losing a ton of detail overrall. With my old camera it was more forgiving in that regard... because of that I grew quite sloppy in my hyperfocusing technique... guess I'll have to be more careful in the future!



I'm surprised you even needed f/8. How far from the barn were you?



> As for the tetons at sunset / sunrise: they are spectacular!



Nice shots. I especially like the first one.


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## briansquibb (Dec 12, 2011)

I would suggest the 7D is more than good enough for prosumer landscapers, printing happily up to A3 (c.16x12) on a simgle image

After that multiple image stitching is a good option.

It may not be the 7D's strong point but it will perform more than adequately for the average user.

Specialist landscapers will probably go a different route


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## torger (Dec 12, 2011)

I have shot quite much landscapes with the 7D.

The good:
- large LCD good live view, good for manual focusing
- electronic start of shutter (less vibration)
- good build for the price (better weather proofed than the 5Dmk2)
- if full-frame glass is used, good corner-to-corner performance, little vignetting
- if using APS-C lenses - good performance for low price, lightweight

The bad:
- lower res and less sharp per pixel (due to stressing lens resolving power) than full-frame 5Dmk2
- no weather-proofed APS-C lenses
- no APS-C tilt-shift and primes, making wide-angle lens choice a bit limiting.
- ISO100 performance less good than the competition (but still adequate)

If you like working with primes and tilt-shift full-frame is a better choice. If you like working with zooms, the practical quality out of the 7D is quite close the 5Dmk2.


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## bycostello (Dec 12, 2011)

nice images, don't know why u were stresseed


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## briansquibb (Dec 12, 2011)

torger said:


> If you like working with primes and tilt-shift full-frame is a better choice. If you like working with zooms, the practical quality out of the 7D is quite close the 5Dmk2.



It is fine with primes - but not tiltshift

+1 - especially in good light


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## torger (Dec 12, 2011)

briansquibb said:


> torger said:
> 
> 
> > If you like working with primes and tilt-shift full-frame is a better choice. If you like working with zooms, the practical quality out of the 7D is quite close the 5Dmk2.
> ...



Yes you're right, it is good on many of the available primes. What I meant is that on the wide end there's not really any good primes. Those 14mm and 17mm full-frame primes don't perform that great on the small-pixel APS-C compared to longer primes, then it is better with the wide-angle 10-22mm APS-C-specific zoom lens. Full-frame primes are sharp down to 24mm, but less than 24mm they lose some sharpness, meaning that they don't perform well on small-pixel APS-C. Since APS-C needs shorter focal lengths to get the wide angle views, the full-frame wide angle primes are not great to use, and there are no wide angle APS-C-specific primes made (APS-C-specific can be made a bit sharper due to the smaller image circle).

However, the 50, 85, 100mm etc primes perform very well on APS-C, but may be a bit long for landscape shots. I've done quite many 50mm landscape shots on the 7D though.


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## briansquibb (Dec 12, 2011)

torger said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > torger said:
> ...



I do a lot of longer prime landscapes (135 and 200f/2.8) where there is architectural interest. I also find the 50 f/1.4 and 85 f/1.8 work well too.


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## pj1974 (Dec 12, 2011)

I've said for many years that people often overstate that the 'best of the best of current day photographic equipment' is needed for good photos. Landscape photography is one of the photographic genres that have less of a demand on equipment essentially than some other genres (eg sports).

The ability to understand light (colour, tone, brightness, contrast, etc); think and apply powerful composition tools (form, shape, contrasting elements, etc) - often sets apart good landscape photos from 'just average' ones. 

The Canon 7D can create amazing landscape photos with a skilled photographer using it. While some full frame cameras would benefit to some degree, that's often at the pixel peeping level.  I have used a variety of cameras including my Canon 7D (and even from over 10 years ago when owning a humble Fuji p&s, then migrating to a Canon 350D) - to take landscape photos.

Many of my landscape photos have been acknowledged as being very good (and I consider there is much I can learn and improve on).

While I would like the 7D to have somewhat lower ISO noise, it's not that bad. With correct exposure and careful post processing, magnificent results are indeed possible.

Wishing everyone (whether with Canon 7D cameras or other equipment) joy while taking & sharing photos, especially at this time of the year. 

Regards,

Paul


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## torger (Dec 12, 2011)

pj1974 said:


> I've said for many years that people often overstate that the 'best of the best of current day photographic equipment' is needed for good photos. Landscape photography is one of the photographic genres that have less of a demand on equipment essentially than some other genres (eg sports).



I agree here. With sports you may need high class auto focus and low light capability to be able to make the shot at all. With landscape, you can make the shot with any equipment.

However, with landscape and other slow tripod-mounted photography you also have the ability to max out what the camera can do in terms of resolution and dynamic range. This can also be appreciated by making large high res fine art prints, and landscapes are often detailed so there's small details to discover. So while the equipment will not lead to better images artistically, it can certainly improve print quality. How important that is, and how good "good enough" is, is a matter of taste of course.


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## sawsedge (Dec 12, 2011)

Friedmud,

I'm glad you kept the 7D and are out using it. Those samples are great.

A note on diffraction... I've tested diffraction on 35mm film, my old 20D, and my 50D, and I saw the same result. Worries about diffraction are somewhat overblown. I'm OK down to f/16 on all of them. Yes, when you conduct a test and compare the results side-by-side you see the image degrade some from, say, f/5.6 as you stop down to f/16, but it isn't bad really. The results are quite usable in my opinion. When you do landscapes and you need the DOF, don't be afraid to stop down, don't worry about diffraction too much. But it doesn't hurt to vary your aperture either. It won't cost you anything but a few more moments, enjoying a scene you find worthy.

On noise reduction, I've had great luck with CS5 (in ACR) and Noise Ninja (rarely using both, mostly using CS5 now). I've heard great things about Topaz DeNoise too. Glad it works for you.

As I said in your other thread, I think digital becomes more demanding in general as the pixels get smaller, so we have a bigger learning curve.


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## akiskev (Dec 12, 2011)

friedmud said:


> Short Answer: Yes!
> 
> Long Answer: Read On
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your experience with us! I found your tips very useful!
+ RAW conversion settings were excellent! Good job!
Do you have any shots with a Circular PL filter on?


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## pedro (Dec 12, 2011)

As an amateur I sold a nightscape to a company this early year after being published in a regional newspaper as a readers photograph for USD 1000. 00. No joke. This was taken by my current 30D and a EF-S 10-22. Therefore I strongly guess the 7D CAN do landscape as well. 8)
FYI: http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/5362831447/in/set-72157602075454706

Cheers, Pedro


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## Texas711 (Dec 12, 2011)

Please excuse the noob here, I just purchased the 7D and notice it has 3 levels of NR in the custom menus.
Is it better to shoot with this off and smooth the picture is post production?


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## friedmud (Dec 12, 2011)

dtaylor said:


> Congratulations on giving the 7D an honest run and discovering what it can do! Good shots, good comparisons, and good analysis. Your detailed post can serve as a guideline to future 7D/60D/T2i owners.
> 
> * Playing with an online DoF calculator is a great way to get a feel for what apertures are actually needed in different situations: http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html.



Thanks!

As for DoF calculators... I personally use a simple DoF calculator on my iPhone. There are several good ones. One thing I like about the one I have is that you can set your camera and lenses and then it gives you tailored hyperfocal distances based on what you want in focus.


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## friedmud (Dec 12, 2011)

dtaylor said:


> I'm surprised you even needed f/8. How far from the barn were you?
> 
> Nice shots. I especially like the first one.



I was about 50-75 feet from the barn.... but I was miles away from the mountains. I haven't done a proper hyperfocal calculation... but f/8 or so seems about right.

Thanks!


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## strikerwy (Dec 12, 2011)

I think your detailed report and break down of things is quite informative, but I've never questioned for a moment the 7Ds ability in the realm of landscape imagery. I am finding myself achieving stunning results with very little post-production. This is not an advertisement for myself, but you can see a number of landscapes taken with a 7D by following the link. 95% of the images posted were captured with my 7D. The other 5% came from a 50D. I think the images are a grand testimony to the ability of the camera to render my vision quite well.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1384191182#!/pages/Tim-Doolin-Photography/127209093980710


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## friedmud (Dec 12, 2011)

strikerwy said:


> I think your detailed report and break down of things is quite informative, but I've never questioned for a moment the 7Ds ability in the realm of landscape imagery. I am finding myself achieving stunning results with very little post-production. This is not an advertisement for myself, but you can see a number of landscapes taken with a 7D by following the link. 95% of the images posted were captured with my 7D. The other 5% came from a 50D. I think the images are a grand testimony to the ability of the camera to render my vision quite well.
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1384191182#!/pages/Tim-Doolin-Photography/127209093980710



Nice photos - do you live out here in the west somewhere? I noticed quite a few from Yellowstone and the Tetons...

Maybe we could get together for a hike sometime...


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## strikerwy (Dec 13, 2011)

Friedmud-

I live in Sheridan, WY, so the Tetons and Yellowstone are in my backyard. I'd love to get together some time if we're in the same vicinity. I'm a school teacher, so much of my work is done suring the summer months, although I'm headed for Yellowstone over Christmas break. Send me an email sometime [email protected]


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## AprilForever (Dec 13, 2011)

All my landscapes are 7D!!! ;D


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## rebelphil (Feb 27, 2012)

RC said:


> friedmud said:
> 
> 
> > Yep, Live View is the way to go for manual focusing. I pop into live view, zoom all the way in on what I want to focus on, then manually focus until it's sharp. Then drop out of live view.
> ...


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## Pieces Of E (Feb 27, 2012)

friedmud, let me ask you a question, and please answer quickly and honestly. Are you happpy with your 7D? Because we're not. And I think you're not either, otherwise, why would you be doing all these tests and posts, etc. if you were a happy satisfied user/owner of the Canon EOS 7D?
Answer this post people, If the 7D had no issues, why would the internet be full of complaints of AF and ISO issues? We've upgraded 40D's to 7D's and are very unhappy with the bodies. 
Camera body numbers 2971208672 & 2771211338, firmware 1.2.5. Shots done of moving objects are abhorrent and pathetic with zone AF, AI Servo, Custom Functions properly set. 
We don't shoot little puppy dogs 5 feet from the camera, or boys jogging in a junior high school track race like Canon's commercials on Youtube, we are trying to shoot birds and animals in the REAL world and are getting fuzzy, noisy results. Need examples? We got 'em. Work for Canon? Get lost.


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## wickidwombat (Feb 27, 2012)

Pieces Of E said:


> friedmud, let me ask you a question, and please answer quickly and honestly. Are you happpy with your 7D? Because we're not. And I think you're not either, otherwise, why would you be doing all these tests and posts, etc. if you were a happy satisfied user/owner of the Canon EOS 7D?
> Answer this post people, If the 7D had no issues, why would the internet be full of complaints of AF and ISO issues? We've upgraded 40D's to 7D's and are very unhappy with the bodies.
> Camera body numbers 2971208672 & 2771211338, firmware 1.2.5. Shots done of moving objects are abhorrent and pathetic with zone AF, AI Servo, Custom Functions properly set.
> We don't shoot little puppy dogs 5 feet from the camera, or boys jogging in a junior high school track race like Canon's commercials on Youtube, we are trying to shoot birds and animals in the REAL world and are getting fuzzy, noisy results. Need examples? We got 'em. Work for Canon? Get lost.



I'd be really interested to see your review of the 5D Af system....


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## briansquibb (Feb 27, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> I'd be really interested to see your review of the 5D Af system....



You wicked Wombat ;D ;D ;D


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## DRD photo (Feb 27, 2012)

Pieces Of E said:


> friedmud, let me ask you a question, and please answer quickly and honestly. Are you happpy with your 7D? Because we're not. And I think you're not either, otherwise, why would you be doing all these tests and posts, etc. if you were a happy satisfied user/owner of the Canon EOS 7D?
> Answer this post people, If the 7D had no issues, why would the internet be full of complaints of AF and ISO issues? We've upgraded 40D's to 7D's and are very unhappy with the bodies.
> Camera body numbers 2971208672 & 2771211338, firmware 1.2.5. Shots done of moving objects are abhorrent and pathetic with zone AF, AI Servo, Custom Functions properly set.
> We don't shoot little puppy dogs 5 feet from the camera, or boys jogging in a junior high school track race like Canon's commercials on Youtube, we are trying to shoot birds and animals in the REAL world and are getting fuzzy, noisy results. Need examples? We got 'em. Work for Canon? Get lost.



I have a canon 7d, and I shot landscapes with a tokina 11-16 lens as well as the canon 17-40 L. The pictures are beautiful, and since shooting landscapes with my recently acquired Canon 5d mark ii, I see the difference in IQ between the 2 camera's, but the 7d is still more than impressive. Now onto the ridiculous post regarding issues with AF and ISO, well you should go back and check your EXIF info on your photo's as I shot a Large blue heron in flight and a junior league football with my 7D and a 150-500mm sigma lens with no issues at all. You maybe shooting at too slow of a shutter, or better yet using Zone AF for shooting moving animals is not recommended if I remember correctly. There is a wonderful link on the Canon website on the AF features of the 7D, I highly recommend it. And it does take some time to figure out the AF abilities of the Canon 7D coming from a 40D. 

And I do not work for Canon. Good luck with your journey.


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## Mac_Canon (Feb 27, 2012)

Very nice shots dude.


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## Circles (Mar 1, 2012)

Amazing shots Mate. Thanks for postings! Sorry if I'm posting alot just trying to kill time! Waiting for the big day.


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