# Leica Announces SL Type 601 Mirrorless Camera



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 20, 2015)

```
<strong>The LEICA SL mirrorless system camera sets new standards in terms of speed, picture quality and versatility</strong></p>
<p>Wetzlar, 20 October 2015. The Leica SL system marks the beginning of a new era of professional photography made in Germany. The Leica SL mirrorless system camera is impressive on account of its innovations in exceptional Leica quality. Its 24 MP full-frame CMOS sensor and perfectly matched components – from superior-quality lenses to its electronic viewfinder – guarantee exceptional imaging performance.</p>
<p><strong>EyeRes viewfinder and touchscreen display for total control of every picture

</strong>Developed especially for the Leica SL, this electronic viewfinder is the first of its kind to feature Leica EyeRes technology. With a latency time below the threshold of perception, an impressive resolution of 4.4 million pixels and a magnification reminiscent of a medium format camera, this electronic viewfinder offers an entirely new visual experience and numerous advantages: the final image is visible in the viewfinder before the shutter release is pressed, which enables optimum control over the final picture in any situation. The EyeRes viewfinder is activated simply by looking through it. In addition, the Leica SL also features a 2.95″ back panel display with a viewing angle of up to 170° that enables reliable viewing of pictures and efficient touchscreen menu navigation.</p>

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<p><!--more--></p>
<p><strong>Maestro II processor for maximum performance

</strong>The high-performance Maestro II series processor guarantees that photographers never miss even the fastest-moving subjects and that the camera responds instantaneously to all commands. Together with 2 GB of buffer memory, the processor makes it possible to capture consecutive exposures at rates of up to 11 frames per second at full 24 MP resolution and 4K video with a frame rate of 30 frames per second. Pictures can be saved simultaneously to an SD memory card as both a JPEG and DNG in line with the fast UHS II standard. Thanks to its Maestro II series processor, the Leica SL achieves the best performance currently possible in the professional camera class and underlines the innovative character of the camera.</p>
<p><strong>24 MP CMOS sensor for exceptional picture quality in 35 mm full-frame format

</strong>The 24 MP CMOS full-frame sensor guarantees impressive dynamic range, excellent contrast rendition, exceptional sharpness, the highest resolution, and noise-free images in almost all lighting conditions. The shutter provides speeds from 30 minutes to 1/8000 sec. The sensor reveals its full potential in combination with Leica SL lenses, especially in available-light situations, and captivates users with atmospheric exposures in superior quality at ISO settings up to a maximum of 50,000. What’s more, it is optimised for use with Leica M-Lenses and, in addition to supporting all their functions, delivers the excellent picture quality with which Leica has been synonymous for more than 100 years.</p>
<p><strong>The new movie star: professional video in cinematic resolution

</strong>The Leica SL is much more than a professional still-picture camera with video recording capability: it fulfils even the most stringent demands of moviemakers as a fully fledged video camera. Thanks to its 24 MP CMOS sensor and high-performance Maestro II series processor, the Leica SL enables the production of professional videos in 4K resolution. Videos can be recorded in UHD at 30 frames per second or even in Cine4K at 24 frames per second. In full HD, the Leica SL records video at up to 120 frames per second and makes use of the entire sensor area. Here, the logical and intuitive handling concept of the camera makes a clear distinction between still- and motion-picture recording. As soon as the camera is in video mode, the display shows only relevant information for video recording, such as safe area, aspect ratio, zebra function or the recording level of the microphone. An optional audio adapter allows you to connect an external microphone and the audio recording level can be set without accessing the menu. Videos can be output in 4:2:2 10-bit format in 4K resolution over HDMI 1.4.</p>
<p><strong>Aluminium body for robust performance in everyday photography

</strong>From the beginning, resilience and robustness were at the focus of the Leica SL’s development. Body components machined from solid aluminium and precisely engineered seals around controls and in the lenses provide optimum protection against dust, moisture and splashes for the sensitive technology inside. At the same time, integrated ultrasonic sensor cleaning removes dust and dirt from the sensor. The glass covering the back panel display is extremely scratch-resistant and features an anti-reflex coating. All these properties make the camera an ideal tool for use in the rough, everyday conditions faced by professional photographers. In the interplay between its equally classic and functional design and its distinctive lines, the Leica SL is another example of Leica’s fine art of engineering.</p>
<p><strong>A new generation of lenses for excellent picture quality

</strong>The combination of outstanding imaging performance and the fastest autofocus currently possible makes working with the Leica SL an entirely new experience and enables photographers to produce images in a quality never before seen in 35 mm format. True to Leica’s principles, the new lenses specific to the Leica SL are distinguished by superior optical and mechanical precision. With its wide range of focal lengths and high speed, the Leica Vario-Elmarit-SL 24–90 mm f/2.8–4 ASPH. is the ideal standard zoom lens in the Leica SL-System portfolio. The zoom range of the fast Leica APO-Vario-Elmarit-SL 90–280 mm f/2.8–4 follows on directly from this and the current lens portfolio is rounded off by the Leica Summilux-SL 50 mm f/1.4 ASPH., the new reference lens for this focal length.</p>
<p>What’s more, the exceptional compatibility of the Leica SL-System grants photographers access to almost all Leica lenses ever made. For instance, all lenses for the Leica T camera can be used without an adapter. In addition, appropriate adapters allow Leica S, M, and R system lenses and lenses from other manufacturers to be mounted on the Leica SL.</p>
<p><strong>Availability

</strong>The Leica SL (Type 601) body will be on sale from 16 November 2015. The Leica Vario-Elmarit-SL 24–90 mm f/2.8–4 ASPH. zoom lens will be available at the same time. Further Leica SL lenses will follow.</p>
<p><strong>Leica SL (Type 601) Body: <a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1192093-REG/leica_10850_sl_typ_601_mirrorless.html/bi/2466/kbid/3296" target="_blank">B&H Photo</a> | <a href="http://www.adorama.com/LCSL.html?KBID=64393" target="_blank">Adorama</a> </strong> | <strong><span class="s1">Leica 24-90mm f/2.8-4 ASPH <a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1192094-REG/leica_11176_vario_elmarit_sl_24_90_f_2_8_4_asph.html/BI/2466/KBID/3296" target="_blank">B&H Photo</a> | <a href="http://www.adorama.com/LC2490SL.html?KBID=64393" target="_blank">Adorama</a></span></strong></p>
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## Dylan777 (Oct 20, 2015)

I like the body style, also "noise-free images in almost all lighting conditions."  :


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## ahsanford (Oct 20, 2015)

Fairly detailed walkthrough here:

http://goo.gl/RoR8ab

But Ming is rather talented and may fool you into thinking the camera had something to do with the shots he took. 

- A


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## mkabi (Oct 20, 2015)

Why is it so big?


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## Haydn1971 (Oct 20, 2015)

Mirrorless ! The new small that's erm... Big !


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## Bennymiata (Oct 20, 2015)

Looks nice, but where is the mirrorless size and weight advantage?


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## MrFotoFool (Oct 20, 2015)

For those who did not click on the BH link, the price is 7,450. I bought the Canon M with pancake lens when they were on sale a year ago for 250 (or was it 299?). If Leica can come close to matching that price, I am in!


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## RobertG. (Oct 20, 2015)

It's an interesting camera. But the initial price of 6.900 EUR + 4.300 EUR for the lens (11.200 EUR total) is definitely too high. If they could manage to sell it for 2.500 EUR + 2.000 EUR for the lens, its sales would skyrocket. But it's a Leica....


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## RobertG. (Oct 20, 2015)

After having seen the first photos of it on DPreview, it looks more like a MF mirroless body with a too small sensor. It's huge and heavy. The same camera body and perfomance with the sensor of Pentax 645Z would be awesome... and probably worth the price and size of it.


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## Busted Knuckles (Oct 20, 2015)

Ah common - no one has complained about dynamic range yet... geez people are getting slow. 

So now Canon might come out w/ a real functional mirrorless hope the flange distance is less/same as the Leica. "R" type sensor. Resolution to burn 

Can't wait to see Roger at lens rental work this new uber resolution solution


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## mkabi (Oct 21, 2015)

Normally, I wouldn't complain with this many goodies in one machine... but may be removing wifi & GPS can reduce the size?


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## PhotographyFirst (Oct 21, 2015)

As a person of German heritage, this about sums up our ability to over-engineer the usefulness out of just about anything. ;D

Seriously though, that camera and lens looks like prototype mockups, not production ready models. Yikes!


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 21, 2015)

I was intrigued by the rumors, but the final product doesn't do much for me due to its size. I'll have to try one out in person. For now, I think my M-P and three M lenses is going to stick with me, it's the right size.


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## dadohead (Oct 21, 2015)

As I said elsewhere, I was afraid this camera was going to make me regret buying a Q. I'm good now--I've already got a big-ass DSLR.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 21, 2015)

dadohead said:


> As I said elsewhere, I was afraid this camera was going to make me regret buying a Q. I'm good now--I've already got a big-ass DSLR.



I just said to someone that they'll likely see a spike in Q sales, as the SL rumors have been around for a while.


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## Bernard (Oct 21, 2015)

No complaints about the size from me. I can't make my hands any smaller!

The true test will be the viewfinder. All full-frame viewfinders are a disaster. The 1Dx is probably the best of the bunch, but it isn't all that good; the 5Ds is just like looking through a soft-focus filter hidden behind stained glass.

Current reviews say that the SL's viewfinder is amazingly clear and doesn't suffer from video delay, but only "friends of Leica" have had access so far. Let's hope it's not a disappointment like all other EVFs.


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## arthurbikemad (Oct 21, 2015)

For 7G+ I'd hope it is clear


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## ahsanford (Oct 21, 2015)

I really don't see the size of the SL as a problem. If you are bolting a lead pipe of a lens like the one below, do you really want to hold it with a dainty little FF mirrorless body?

I've said this before -- you are into *mirrorless for size reasons* and should do everything to keep it small, or you are into *mirrorless to completely replace the SLR and everything it does for you*. This new product is clearly the latter, so it's built like a tank. If you're in the other group the A7 (or more likely Fuji X, m43, etc.) are better suited for your needs.

All that said, this is a Bismarck-ian super battleship that is too ponderous to succeed in the market. Forgetting the price for a moment, only a very small slice of photographers would seriously consider this rig, and I certainly am not one of them.

- A


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## dolina (Oct 21, 2015)

I think this will sell as well as any 1-Series body.


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2015)

Bernard said:


> No complaints about the size from me. I can't make my hands any smaller!
> 
> The true test will be the viewfinder. All full-frame viewfinders are a disaster. The 1Dx is probably the best of the bunch, but it isn't all that good; the 5Ds is just like looking through a soft-focus filter hidden behind stained glass.
> 
> Current reviews say that the SL's viewfinder is amazingly clear and doesn't suffer from video delay, but only "friends of Leica" have had access so far. Let's hope it's not a disappointment like all other EVFs.


It has to be relative big for the ergonomic reason. Also the original SL (as in film) is not small either.


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## PhotographyFirst (Oct 22, 2015)

You know, after reading Ming's review of the camera, it actually seems much cooler in actual use than on paper. My only beef would be the fact that long exposure noise reduction can't be turned off. That would be a no-go for stitching astro landscape shots. No way I am waiting 20-30 seconds after each exposure to take the next one. Hopefully the production models are foxed or offered a firmware update. 

On the other hand, the top display apparently give min and max depth of field distance info based on focus distance and aperture. That would be really sweet for focus stacking. 

http://blog.mingthein.com/2015/10/21/premiere-review-2015-leica-sl-601/

The weather sealing seems to have been a huge priority for this camera, which is pretty nice. 

Ming also mentions that the EVF is basically lightyears ahead of anything ever made before for a consumer product. Insanely fast refresh, resolution, and size. Could be the jump that leaves the OVF with less of an advantage. 

He says the AF is decent light is as fast as they claim, which is impressive for a full frame mirrorless.


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## scyrene (Oct 22, 2015)

The problem with the size is, it loses some of the advantages of mirrorless without gaining the advantages of a DSLR - the battery life is especially disappointing.

A large mirrorless camera would interest me (with caveats) for ergonomic reasons, but battery life is crucial too.


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## ahsanford (Oct 22, 2015)

scyrene said:


> The problem with the size is, it loses some of the advantages of mirrorless without gaining the advantages of a DSLR - the battery life is especially disappointing.
> 
> A large mirrorless camera would interest me (with caveats) for ergonomic reasons, but battery life is crucial too.



But of course mirrorless can do some awesome things _better_ than an SLR that have nothing to do with size:


A viewfinder that can do things traditional OVFs cannot: focus speaking, realtime histo, light amplification in dark rooms, etc.
No mirror slap
Faster max shutter than 1/8000
Less moving parts, less things that can fail --> potentially a more reliable instrument over a longer period of time
[Mirrorless proponents back me up here, I know I've forgotten a few nice upsides in this list.]

Keep in mind that I don't own a mirrorless rig b/c today the performance is only there from a pure IQ (sensor) perspective. On so many other fronts, handling/ergonomics, AF, tracking, burst, responsiveness, etc. I find mirrorless way behind my 5D3.

But consider the bullet points above. Mirrorless can be much more than making things smaller.

- A


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## Dylan777 (Oct 22, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > The problem with the size is, it loses some of the advantages of mirrorless without gaining the advantages of a DSLR - the battery life is especially disappointing.
> ...



Let's discuss more when you own one. Until then, big sensor in compact body still the primary key for mirrorless over DSLR.


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## 3kramd5 (Oct 22, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> But of course mirrorless can do some awesome things _better_ than an SLR that have nothing to do with size:
> [Snip]
> Faster max shutter than 1/8000.



The EOS 1D resents that comment.

But I posted this less to inquire what the mirror has to do with the shutter, and more to pick at a pet peeve of mine. 1/8000 (or whatever) is the min shutter. Not the max. The unit is of time, not velocity


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## Bernard (Oct 22, 2015)

scyrene said:


> the battery life is especially disappointing.



All the user reports so far mention a battery life of 700+ exposures. Is that not enough?

I think the problem could be that battery life tests are based on point-and-shoot usage: using the rear screen all the time, chimping after every shot, refocusing after every shot, etc. Real-world results will be different if you use this camera like an SLR.


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## 3kramd5 (Oct 22, 2015)

Bernard said:


> I think the problem could be that battery life tests are based on point-and-shoot usage: using the rear screen all the time... Real-world results will be different if you use this camera like an SLR.



Note that on the Sony A7R2 (which many people claim this camera competes with... somehow), using the EVF takes *more *juice than using the rear screen.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 22, 2015)

*Canon EOS 5DS R & Leica SL Side-by-Side Comparison*


```
Yesterday, <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/leica-announces-sl-type-601-mirrorless-camera/">Leica announced the Leica SL (Type 601)</a> which looks to be a near full frame DSLR sized mirrorless camera. Most of the rumor mill was expecting something around the <a href="http://www.photographyblog.com/news/leica_sl_vs_sony_a7r_ii_side_by_side_comparison/" target="_blank">size of the Sony A7 series of cameras</a> and were surprised to see that wasn’t the case, myself included. This is definitely a new take on the mirrorless concept and it will be interesting to see how the market responds and if Leica can get this camera into the hands of true professionals, something they’ve been unable to do for quite some time.</p>
<p class="fs16 OpenSans-600-normal upper product-highlights-header"><strong>Leica SL (Type 601) Highlights:</strong></p>
<ul class="top-section-list" data-selenium="highlightList">
<li class="top-section-list-item">24MP Full-Frame CMOS Sensor</li>
<li class="top-section-list-item">Leica Maestro II Image Processor</li>
<li class="top-section-list-item">Internal DCI 4K Video & V-Log L Gamma</li>
<li class="top-section-list-item">0.66″ 4.4MP 0.8x Electronic Viewfinder</li>
<li class="top-section-list-item">2.95″ 1.04M-Dot LED-Backlit Touchscreen</li>
<li class="top-section-list-item">Contrast AF System with 49 Fields</li>
<li class="top-section-list-item">Up to 11 fps Shooting and ISO 50000</li>
<li class="top-section-list-item">Two SD Card Slots; 1.3″ Top LCD Screen</li>
<li class="top-section-list-item">Weather-Resistant Milled Aluminum Body</li>
<li class="top-section-list-item">Built-In Wi-Fi Connectivity and GPS</li>
</ul>
<p>PhotographyBLOG has posted a series of comparison shots of the Leica SL and EOS 5DS R. You can view the rest of the <a href="http://www.photographyblog.com/news/leica_sl_vs_canon_eos_5ds_r_side_by_side_comparison/" target="_blank">comparison images here</a>.</p>

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## scyrene (Oct 22, 2015)

Bernard said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > the battery life is especially disappointing.
> ...



I was going by the CIPA, which DPR said was 400 shots. Even 700 though seems low compared to the 5D3 (and therefore definitely low compared to the 1Dx).


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## scyrene (Oct 22, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > The problem with the size is, it loses some of the advantages of mirrorless without gaining the advantages of a DSLR - the battery life is especially disappointing.
> ...



I wasn't saying small size was the only advantage to mirrorless.

EVFs offer intriguing capabilities, sure.

Mirror slap... is that a big problem? You can lock up the mirror, and don't the newest Canon DSLRs have a dampening feature that reduces it otherwise?

As I've mentioned on another thread, do all-electronic devices really fail less frequently or later than mechanical ones? I'd love to see some evidence either way. Both fail. Both are susceptible to different things - shocks might harm a mirror mechanism but not a circuit, but moisture might be fatal to the former and not the latter, etc. And are mechanical parts easier or harder, cheaper or more expensive to replace or repair if and when they do fail? It's nothing like as simple as you imply.

As others have mentioned, 1/8000 isn't the fastest a mechanical shutter/mirror can do (just the standard maximum for some now). Incidentally, though more is almost always better, I can't say I use 1/8000 often at all.


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## jeffa4444 (Oct 22, 2015)

scyrene said:


> Bernard said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...


If your going to compare anything to the 1DX you need to add a battery grip which is effectively built-in on the 1DX otherwise its meaningless. 
700 shots for the vast majority are fine.


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## jeffa4444 (Oct 22, 2015)

The size comparisons to the 5DS/R / 5D MKIII still show the camera smaller in most planes. Ive had Olympus mirrorless cameras since they brought them out this certainly lookd gigantic compared to them though.


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## scyrene (Oct 22, 2015)

jeffa4444 said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Bernard said:
> ...



Fair enough, the 5DIII then. It might be fine, but it's much less, right? My point was, IF it's going to be DSLR-sized (shallower, fine, but especially with those lenses, essentially the same overall) THEN the lower battery life is disappointing. Not a fair point?


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## erjlphoto (Oct 22, 2015)

Have a great deal of gratitude to Leica for their longtime contribution to photography. The size of this system and its lack of external controlls seems quite unlike the Leica's I have loved and known (film). Simply stated, it looks to be a bit of an oddball offering and I have no lust to own this system...


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## whothafunk (Oct 22, 2015)

god that Leica is ugly as hell


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## George D. (Oct 22, 2015)

Absolutely marvelous. A thin line between toy and professional tool. Or is it both. And minimal. Four numbers on the top deck LCD and that's it. That's all you need. 5DS looks like a Humvee as compared.


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## jeffa4444 (Oct 22, 2015)

I must confess it does come across as odd-ball, I dont like the angular shape it will more readily scratch at these corners but then again most people that buy there cameras treat them like jewelry not photographic tools. The M-240 is a brilliant camera the mono version in particular but Im not sure who they are trying to appeal to with this camera. 
Forgetting cost I would never trade this for my 5DS.


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## Bullwye (Oct 22, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> Less moving parts, less things that can fail --> potentially a more reliable instrument over a longer period of time



I do not think this is a more durable system. I would bet that an EVF fails quicker than a mirror since it is way more complex.


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## ahsanford (Oct 22, 2015)

Bullwye said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Less moving parts, less things that can fail --> potentially a more reliable instrument over a longer period of time
> ...



Does your SLR sensor or back LCD conk out at a higher rate than your mirror box does?

- A


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## ahsanford (Oct 22, 2015)

I'm having a hard time pegging who this Leica system is for without saying something snotty about one percenters. 

Disregarding the sickeningly wealthy crowd for a second, this system represents:

1) The first interchangeable lens setup with AF on an FF sensor for Leica (...right?)

2) Prior Leica glass will work on this, with some caveats to crop factor, and of course, it will be MF.

So the most likely scenario someone would buy this professionally would be...


Current Leica rangefinder users who have need for longer focal lengths (I seem to recall rangefinders have problems/limitations/handling complications with longer glass)


Current Leica rangefinder users who need AF for whatever reason


Current Leica users who want to move from a multi-company setup (Leica for general use, Canon/Nikon for other uses -- video, sports, reach, etc.) to a single company setup


And I have a hard time coalescing that venn diagram into a single type of photographer. Photojournalist, maybe? Wedding photographer, perhaps? I've seen wedding photogs shoot wide aperture Leica shots after the wedding and crack out the Canon/Nikon gear for the reception.

Who is pumping their fist at this announcement _for what it now allows them to do that they could not before?_ 

- A


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## Sporgon (Oct 22, 2015)

Mr Leica really shouldn't have let his kids design his camera.


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## hubie (Oct 22, 2015)

Dudes, I am just waiting for a mirrorless camera, similar to the A7R/A7II's, with standard EF-mount from Canon.


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## 3kramd5 (Oct 22, 2015)

hubie said:


> Dudes, I am just waiting for a mirrorless camera, similar to the A7R/A7II's, with standard EF-mount from Canon.



By the time Canon brings something like that to market, the proper comparison will likely be to the A7IX


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## arthurbikemad (Oct 22, 2015)

It's as big as its price tag!

I'm lost, I just do t get it...at least the neighbours will see the red dot. haha


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## brad-man (Oct 22, 2015)

Beauty is only skin deep. I'm looking forward to seeing the performance of this camera with the APO-Vario-Elmarit-SL 90–280mm f/2.8–4. That is one honkin lens with a MFD of less than a meter. I guess it's meant to compete with the new 100-400. I hope Roger can afford to tear one of these apart and give us the lowdown on weather sealing, etc...


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## ahsanford (Oct 22, 2015)

brad-man said:


> Beauty is only skin deep. I'm looking forward to seeing the performance of this camera with the APO-Vario-Elmarit-SL 90–280mm f/2.8–4. That is one honkin lens with a MFD of less than a meter. I guess it's meant to compete with the new 100-400. I hope Roger can afford to tear one of these apart and give us the lowdown on weather sealing, etc...



Leica glass made for first-party Leica cameras isn't meant to compete with anything -- it's been offered to give Leica shooters a new focal length, that's all. I don't think they'd lose a wink of sleep on their bed of gold coins if some other 70-200 or 100-400 outperforms it.

This camera does not have a traditional value proposition in comparison to competitive alternatives at least as far as I can tell. It's almost an Apple-like sales approach -- _"You could buy a non-Apple (take your pick: wifi-router, phone, tablet, etc.) but since you own so much of our stuff, you should buy ours. We're the devil you know, and we've never ever ever let you down."_

- A


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## Bernard (Oct 23, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> And I have a hard time coalescing that venn diagram into a single type of photographer.



I know some high-end wedding/event/corporate photographers who use Leica, and some who use Leica glass on Canon bodies. This would suit them just fine. If you are already carrying 3 M's, then 2 M's and an SL could work.

Anybody who's been struggling with adapted R glass would also be interested. I'm sure that Leica's R adapter will be way better than a 3rd-party R-to-EOS adapter.

No point saying that 90% of buyers will be amateurs. That's true of the 1Dx and "pro" Nikons as well. For every hard-working pro, there's 10 amateurs who enjoy owning the best equipment. Even the most expensive photo gear is cheaper than a kitchen reno, or a week at a 5 star resort, or even seats in first class flight for the family. I can't blame anyone for wanting to own the finest tools in their favorite hobby, I've been there myself.


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## brad-man (Oct 23, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> brad-man said:
> 
> 
> > Beauty is only skin deep. I'm looking forward to seeing the performance of this camera with the APO-Vario-Elmarit-SL 90–280mm f/2.8–4. That is one honkin lens with a MFD of less than a meter. I guess it's meant to compete with the new 100-400. I hope Roger can afford to tear one of these apart and give us the lowdown on weather sealing, etc...
> ...



Seeing as how the SL601 body alone costs slightly less than a 1DX + 24-70ll + 100-400ll, I was being a bit tongue & cheeky...


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## infared (Oct 23, 2015)

I just don't get it. :-X


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## deleteme (Oct 23, 2015)

I was one who eagerly anticipated the arrival of this camera. I used to own an M-4 many years ago and loved it. I sold it because I need an SLR and it couldn't do the job I needed at the time.
I have always had a high regard for Leica and have lamented their missteps but celebrated their willingness to try something that may not pan out.

The churlishness that greets their latest effort by some seems to miss the point. 
Yes it is expensive. 
Just as some cars are very expensive. Like a less expensive car, a less expensive camera will still get the result that (most likely) will be indistinguishable from the expensive alternative.
But expensive goods exist because there are customers for them who enjoy the difference they offer. This is a pleasure some can afford. I can't afford it but I am happy it is there to learn from.

I won't own the vast majority of cameras I read about, but I sure get pleasure from them nonetheless.
I am happy for the Leica's of the world who give us something other than another committee generated DSLR.

I do wish they introduced a line of leaf shutter lenses though. :/


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## Bullwye (Oct 23, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> Bullwye said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



Luckyly none of that happened so far. It was more a theoretical approach aasuming that simple parts last longer than complex ones...


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## moreorless (Oct 23, 2015)

I can certainly see the reason for Leica going with a mirrorless mount with very small flange distance in order to make M mount lenses adaptable BUT I would say this SL system does really call into question the need for it with a FF system.

Sony have as much as possible looked to beat around the bush about lens size but you look at this Leica system and honestly would it make any difference if the camera had 2.5 cm extra flange distance? most of that likely saved by shorter lenses.

Playing into what I'v thought for awhile that really having an EOS/F mount that removes the mirror would actually give you most of the advantage of mirrorless on FF in terms of size saving via removing the larger prism.


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## HarryWintergreen (Oct 23, 2015)

It will be interesting to see, if or to what extent this poses a challenge to Canon. Will they take the mirrorless issue seriously or will they fob us off with something clearly inferior? Don’t get me wrong, you can’t or shouldn’t imitate Leica but there is undoubtedly a dynamics of change. Let’s see.


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## Ivan Muller (Oct 23, 2015)

I have noticed the following:

1. no aperture ring on lens - strange omission from such a traditional company

2. Joystick ala Canon seems to be a great idea - wish all Canons had that feature especially M3

3. I just dont know if the minimalism will work on a camera aimed at pros (although probably more amateurs can afford it and therefore will buy it - than pros) I think this camera has too much design over practicality, ther eis a reason why Canon (&Nikon) dslrs look the way they do

4. The rear dial makes sense ergonomically speaking but the top dial strangely seems out of place

5. The hump on left side of the top plate must be for the gps and wifi - hopefully Canon can adopt it so that all future dslr's can have those features too - and still retain metallic bodies

6. Even Leica cant design a small AF zoom!

7. Big body makes sense with big lenses - my M3 really doesn't handle well with my 70-300L zoom

8. Maybe the new trend will be that mirrorless is not just about being 'small' but should also be practical, which I think the new SL body is for what its aiming to be

9. It sucks that a 'small' company like Leica and with relatively little experience in mirrorless, can design and manufacture a camera with such nice features and 'reportedly' such fast AF - c'mon Canon if they can do it why not you?

10.Leica's are still are out of reach of almost all but the most wealthy - but they sure are nice to look and read about...just like exotic cars and watches...

11. My bet is that they will be the first to bring out a medium format 'mirrorless' camera especially if this sells well.


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## Bernard (Oct 23, 2015)

Ivan Muller said:


> My bet is that they will be the first to bring out a medium format 'mirrorless' camera especially if this sells well.



I would have already ordered a Leica SL if they equipped it with the same sensor as the S (30 x 45 mm). That would be awesome: a camera that can use medium format lenses at 40 megapixels, or full frame lenses at 24 megapixels, or shoot 4K in Super35 format (while fully accommodating PL-mount lenses). "One ring to rule them all."


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## gdanmitchell (Oct 23, 2015)

I'm sure that the new Leica is a solid piece of camera equipment, and I'm sure that a number of Leicaphiles will pick one up. That said, even (perhaps "especially") those described in this and other posts as "professionals" are going to wonder about the scarcity of clothing on the emperor, especially at a price that is several times that (for the body alone!) of competing cameras that perform admirably for serious and/or "professional" photography. While some folks imagine that "professional" photographers will throw money at any gear, no matter the cost, the reality is quite different — most professional photographers watch their bottom lines and consider the value that a product provides. It is very, very difficult to see a valid value proposition in this system.


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## tiltshift (Oct 23, 2015)

I wish Canon would release a mirror-less like this... I didn't buy a a7rII for its size, I bought it for its features... (I actually wise for many reasons it was larger... I would be excited if Canon did a full frame mirror-less even if it was 5D sized for the benefits mirror-less has. But I am guessing most people dont agree or people aside from Leica would be building large mirror-less cameras. 

I can hope....


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## dolina (Oct 23, 2015)

I'd be more ecstatic for a medium format digital point & shoot.

Sony could do it.


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## unfocused (Oct 23, 2015)

brad-man said:


> Beauty is only skin deep.



Am I the only one who thinks this thing is ugly? It reminds me of the East German and Russian knock-off SLRs of the 1960s. Boxy and clunky looking.


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## aj1575 (Oct 23, 2015)

It's a rich mans toy, not more, not less.

Packs a lot of good technology in a fancy housing with a big red dot on it, and sell it for twice as much as it actually is worth.


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## sunnyVan (Oct 23, 2015)

People buy Rolex for symbol of status. In the same way, some people just like their cameras to have a Leica logo. Comparing features is pointless.


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## PureClassA (Oct 23, 2015)

$7000 for the body and $5000 for the glass... yikes. Comparing MILC to MILC, is this really THAT much better than, say, an a7II with a similar 24-70 lens for 1/3- 1/4 the price? Leica makes great machines but good lord.... I get the size... they want to make it more of robust pro-level size. I don't care for the smaller, typical MILC bodies. 11fps is great but are wildlife/sports/photojournalists really going to consider this camera? No way. So what's left is pure image quality and I can't see it being $6000 better than an Alpha also with 24MP.


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## ahsanford (Oct 23, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> $7000 for the body and $5000 for the glass... yikes. Comparing MILC to MILC, is this really THAT much better than, say, an a7II with a similar 24-70 lens for 1/3- 1/4 the price? Leica makes great machines but good lord.... I get the size... they want to make it more of robust pro-level size. I don't care for the smaller, typical MILC bodies. 11fps is great but are wildlife/sports/photojournalists really going to consider this camera? No way. So what's left is pure image quality and I can't see it being $6000 better than an Alpha also with 24MP.



The funny bit is that H'Blad tried a similar value proposition with cloning one-step-older-than-current-gen Sony tech into their terrible Lunar/Stellar rigs and they were laughed off the map.

Now, Leica's actually making their own product here and it's likely far better dialed-in for professional use, but spec wise, it's a similar value proposition to H'Blad from before -- underwhelming specs for considerably more money than the spec leaders. 

Again, other than wealthy people, I'm whiffing on nailing down who sees this camera's announcement and says "At last! Now I can do _________ that I never could before. Take my money."

- A


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## Bernard (Oct 23, 2015)

Question: How much is the Canon camera that can do 4K and 11 fps?

Answer: $8,000 (above $10k at introduction)

...but that's completely different, right? $8k for 11 fps and 24 MP is outrageous, but $8k for 12 fps and 18 MP is a good deal!


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## Eldar (Oct 23, 2015)

Back in the film days I drooled over Leica cameras and, in particular, lenses. But they were simply out of my budget. However, today, when budget is much less of a concern and we have gone digital, I have great difficulty seeing why I should go that way. In addition to Canon´s eminent L-series, which is getting better for every new release (I´m getting the 35/1.4L II tomorrow), I have Zeiss and, in particular, the Otus series, which is way beyond my skill sets and probably also beyond what Leica can offer. I simply don´t see a single reason why I should pay the premium of getting a Leica.


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## aceflibble (Oct 23, 2015)

Leica will always have a market and for decades now they have not remotely tried to be the everyman's camera. That's fine. This camera isn't aimed at the average working photographer or keener hobbyist, so I wouldn't complain about it not being practical or overpriced...

... Except, even by the standards of Leica, £5,050 for a mirrorless camera which is essentially a Sony A7RmkI in a body the size of a 5D? Just bizarre.


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## 3kramd5 (Oct 23, 2015)

aceflibble said:


> ... Except, even by the standards of Leica, £5,050 for a mirrorless camera which is essentially a *Sony A7RmkI* in a body the size of a 5D? Just bizarre.



More like an a7 II plus 4k


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## Xyclopx (Oct 23, 2015)

about all the size complaints:

mirror-less is the future. i think that's pretty clear. the mirror someday will not offer any advantage, and will always be a disadvantage in certain ways.

however, that does not mean that mirror-less = small. i think many people prefer the size of their SLRs over the current rage of smaller MILCs, especially when already mounting gigantic lenses.

someday mirrorless cameras will replace SLRs. but the only way to 100% eliminate SLRs is to make some MILCs the same size for those that need the size and robustness. this is just the first step. canon and nikon will definitely follow someday. it's just a matter of time.


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## ahsanford (Oct 23, 2015)

Bernard said:


> Question: How much is the Canon camera that can do 4K and 11 fps?
> 
> Answer: $8,000 (above $10k at introduction)
> 
> ...but that's completely different, right? $8k for 11 fps and 24 MP is outrageous, but $8k for 12 fps and 18 MP is a good deal!



You are making the colossal assumption that this new rig's AF will track like the 1DX. *It doesn't.*

http://www.cnet.com/products/leica-sl/

From the text review: "*For speed shooting, keep in mind that it lacks tracking autofocus*, and that its zone AF frequently picks the wrong part of the zone for focusing. Just like everyone else's."

In the video: "With continuous focus and auto exposure, that tests out to about *7 fps for JPEGs.*"

Just like most Sony mirrorless (and like a Ford Mustang) it's only good in a straight line. High FPS without continuous AF, pedestrian FPS with continuous AF.

Apples and oranges. The 1DX utterly obliterates the value proposition of this this Leica for action work. They are not even in the same time zones.

- A


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## brad-man (Oct 23, 2015)

unfocused said:


> brad-man said:
> 
> 
> > Beauty is only skin deep.
> ...



No, you are not the only one. It looks like a German Industrial brick and is not appealing in the slightest. That is what I actually meant by the skin deep thing. It looks like it would probably survive a fall off of a mountain though, so I was curious as to the weather sealing/build quality aspect. I hope Lens Rentals gets one to test/dissect.


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## ahsanford (Oct 23, 2015)

brad-man said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > brad-man said:
> ...



1) LR typically doesn't dissect $10k+ gear. I'm not sure they'll bite at tearing open such an expensive niche item.

2) Here's what the CNET reviewer thought of the grip -- it's pretty awesome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu0xNMMhDXY&t=1m10s
(should queue up at 1:10 for the comment in question)

- A


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## Deleted member 375103 (Oct 24, 2015)

It looks like a skinnier version of the Leica S, could this be the replacement for the big S? They aren't exactly the same in specs but the SL could be a scale down version of the S.


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## StudentOfLight (Oct 24, 2015)

I like the large size but wish they put more thought into the grip. Some contours could have made it more comfortable to hold.


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## Berowne (Oct 24, 2015)

Shake Junt said:


> It looks like a skinnier version of the Leica S, could this be the replacement for the big S? They aren't exactly the same in specs but the SL could be a scale down version of the S.



Leica S-(Light)


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## sanj (Oct 24, 2015)

Bernard said:


> Question: How much is the Canon camera that can do 4K and 11 fps?
> 
> Answer: $8,000 (above $10k at introduction)
> 
> ...but that's completely different, right? $8k for 11 fps and 24 MP is outrageous, but $8k for 12 fps and 18 MP is a good deal!



Point!


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## sanj (Oct 24, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> hubie said:
> 
> 
> > Dudes, I am just waiting for a mirrorless camera, similar to the A7R/A7II's, with standard EF-mount from Canon.
> ...



hahahahahah.


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## 3kramd5 (Oct 24, 2015)

Xyclopx said:


> the mirror someday will not offer any advantage



It's hard to envision a future in which a mirror doesn't offer a power advantage over an electronic viewfinder.


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## scyrene (Oct 24, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> Xyclopx said:
> 
> 
> > the mirror someday will not offer any advantage
> ...



Well, moving the mirror out the way must take a *teensy* bit of power, right? Could even out eventually?


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## Sporgon (Oct 24, 2015)

scyrene said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > Xyclopx said:
> ...



Not if its done by mechanical springs.


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## 3kramd5 (Oct 24, 2015)

scyrene said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > Xyclopx said:
> ...



I expect displays to become more power hungry. Even if they go to OLED, with increases in resolution and brightness, the power consumption of an EVF will be greater than that of moving a flimsy mirror.


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## brad-man (Oct 25, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



That's OK. The space savings from eliminating the mirror box, pentaprism, etc. will ultimately allow for larger, more powerful (and more expensive) batteries.


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## 3kramd5 (Oct 25, 2015)

brad-man said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



Agreed, manufacturers could fill in the space with batteries and thermal management. I wish Sony did something like that with the alpha series (A7R2 owner), even if the additional battery isn't removable due to location (plug in and get additional charge).

However, the point stands: a mirror and OVF will always hold a power advantage over an EVF.


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## Bernard (Oct 25, 2015)

I don't think that EVF power is a limiting factor. They can just use a bigger battery.

The problem is that Canon's optical viewfinders have been getting worse. The 5Ds is fuzzy, and it's overlaid with useless information. The unique selling point for an SLR is the great real-time view it affords, but that selling point is lost if you make a camera with a poor viewfinder.
Trouble is, good viewfinders aren't cheap. You basically need the optics from a high quality telescope, a super-fine and bright screen, and you need to assemble it with extraordinary precision. The mirror box has to be within a few microns of its optimal location, and it has to stay that way through years of abuse.

I really hope that Canon will finally decide to tackle this engineering issue. The path they chose for the 5Ds hasn't worked out; you've got 50 megapixels, but you can only see a fraction of that information in the viewfinder. It may as well be mirrorless because you need to use live-view if you want to nail focus.


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## scyrene (Oct 25, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



Springs! Clever. Lucky I'm not an engineer.


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## dufflover (Oct 26, 2015)

It's Leica ... any notion of cost/value/benefit is instantly irrelevant.

We already know Leica are in their own market of buyers, at least not the typical CaNikon market)


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## Eldar (Oct 26, 2015)

Bernard said:


> The path they chose for the 5Ds hasn't worked out; you've got 50 megapixels, but you can only see a fraction of that information in the viewfinder. It may as well be mirrorless because you need to use live-view if you want to nail focus.


I disagree. I have no problem with the 5DSR viewfinder. The lack of alternative focusing screens is annoying though. However, if that is your main concern, you can buy a custom made focusing screen and then the problem is gone. I have had an S-screen made by www.focusingscreens.com installed for the last couple of weeks and, with a little bit of practice, I nail focus on f1.4 lenses (@f1.4), like the Otus 55 and 85. I did the same with the 5DIII and I use a standard Canon Ec-S on my 1DX.


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## Bernard (Oct 26, 2015)

Eldar,

I think that Canon should do even better than that. They need to offer an optical viewfinder that blows EVFs into the weeds: more magnification, better brightness, better contrast. Something like an Arriflex (film) VF, or a Hasselblad finder.

I know they can do it. They're an optics company, and this is an optics problem. There was no reason to improve when their main competition was Nikon, which also offers poor viewfinders. The market has changed, they can either step-up or face long-term irrelevance.


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