# Canon 600 ex ii rt made in china ????



## Andrew Davies Photography (May 3, 2017)

OK so just took delivery of a new Canon 600 ex rt ii and it says made in China , was under the impression all canons decent gear was made in Japan has that now changed , was purchased from mifsuds as UK stock so expecting its genuine.

If Canon are now using china to make their products then i might have well as bought 3x yongnuos for the same price !


----------



## Mikehit (May 3, 2017)

Andrew Davies Photography said:


> OK so just took delivery of a new Canon 600 ex rt ii and it says made in China , was under the impression all canons decent gear was made in Japan has that now changed , was purchased from mifsuds as UK stock so expecting its genuine.
> 
> If Canon are now using china to make their products then i might have well as bought 3x yongnuos for the same price !



Why?
You make superior products by having superior QC processes and use superior materials, not by making it in Japan.


----------



## Andrew Davies Photography (May 3, 2017)

Why , because Japan has a reputation of excellent workforce and QC so you answered your own question, China however does not.


----------



## Mikehit (May 3, 2017)

Failure of QC is down to the lack of proper control by the owners of the company - nothing more, nothing less. It is not a national stereotype. 
The British had an appalling reputation for quality of manufactured goods (cars being the most obvious example) - but those were all British companies owned by Brits. The Japanese came in with their Nissan plant and that factory for decades has been the most productive manufacturing plant in Europe, arguably one of the top in the world. By your logic that should not have happened.
What had failed was British management had failed the workforce and the customer. Not the other way round.

China turns out some of the best value for money hifi (quality as well as performance) in the world. How does that fit with your prejudice?


----------



## Andrew Davies Photography (May 3, 2017)

As a hifi buff I can tell you quite simply it doesnt as my Teac reference system and Technics Turntable were made in Japan, I live in a town desimated by the import of cheap inferior chinese steel which has closed our steelworks and cost many jobs. The chinese work force are treated disgracefully made to work far too young and paid a pittance but if you feel you would like to support that behaviour then fair enough. I attempt where possible to buy quality goods from ethical production companies as hard as that is, granted. This just seems to me Canon selling out and moving production to a cheaper plant in China whilst still expecting to command the same prices, hardly fair is it.


----------



## Mikehit (May 3, 2017)

So is your issue about quality of goods or their profit margins on lower wage costs? 
The latter I can understand your comments, the former is down to Canon not the Chinese workforce and I would expect Canon to maintain the quality.


----------



## YuengLinger (May 3, 2017)

Andrew Davies Photography said:


> As a hifi buff I can tell you quite simply it doesnt as my Teac reference system and Technics Turntable were made in Japan, I live in a town desimated by the import of cheap inferior chinese steel which has closed our steelworks and cost many jobs. The chinese work force are treated disgracefully made to work far too young and paid a pittance but if you feel you would like to support that behaviour then fair enough. I attempt where possible to buy quality goods from ethical production companies as hard as that is, granted. This just seems to me Canon selling out and moving production to a cheaper plant in China whilst still expecting to command the same prices, hardly fair is it.



Yes, "Made in Japan" is comforting. "Made in China" is finger crossing time. Though QC is much improved over the past 15 years in China, counterfeiting is still a problem, and sometimes locally sourced plastics and other materials aren't up to standards. I'm with you on being a little disappointed to hear top tier products are being made there.

But please don't blame China for loss of jobs in the USA and Europe. China had little legal protection for their workers before WTO, and little better now. American voters must take the responsibility for being stupid, lazy, and self-involved while being led by arrogant, greedy elites who claimed shutting factories here would be good for our economy.

Also, the USA, and I would expect Europe too, have vastly cleaner environments because the nastiest, most toxic manufacturing is done "over there." I lived in China for six years. The air, water, and even soil are horrible. The Chinese people certainly have reason to gripe about their leaders, but a significant improvement in the standard of living for most Chinese, and a belief that in the long run all the problems will be solved, that sacrifices now for China will result in national respect and a better world in the hazy future, leads most Chinese to accept current conditions.

Questioning the West's morality for shipping pollution to Asia, and our common sense for sending our jobs there too, is fair. Perhaps both China and America have been cheated by respective leaders.

From what I've gathered over the past decade or so, Japan is facing, if not struggling with now, a labor crisis. Apparently they fear immigration, so issue very restrictive visas, and they have a dwindling population along with a weakening work ethic. If Canon can manage QC abroad, what better options does the company have at this point?

Like I said, I agree that it is a concern; I hope the upcoming ef 85mm 1.4L IS will be built in Japan, if just for psychological comfort. 

I hope this hasn't veered too far into politics. I don't blame anybody for being wary of products being outsourced overseas, especially when the companies involved have great reputations for QC in their home countries. If it's any comfort, China is facing tougher competition than last decade for these outsourced jobs; if they want the money to keep pouring in, they have to be sharper and sharper.


----------



## Andrew Davies Photography (May 3, 2017)

YuengLinger i agree too with your comments and you have put the case well, I do feel the west has been more than happy to jump on the bandwagon importing everything and anything from china for the sake of a few quid saving and more profit , in the long run that has turned out to be a bad thing for china and its pollution and badly treat workforce and also for the west whom have lost countless jobs and companies. The only people to profit were the politicians ceos and big massive corps ebay amazon etc. I still dont trust the quality of china v japan and its from past experience - whether this can turn the corner and things change i will keep an open mind too and will be putting this chinese flash gun through its paces over the coming months , my previous ex600s have lasted 2 years and around 60,000 shots each so through proof of the pudding as they say ....


----------



## Ozarker (May 4, 2017)

Andrew Davies Photography said:


> YuengLinger i agree too with your comments and you have put the case well, I do feel the west has been more than happy to jump on the bandwagon importing everything and anything from china for the sake of a few quid saving and more profit , in the long run that has turned out to be a bad thing for china and its pollution and badly treat workforce and also for the west whom have lost countless jobs and companies. The only people to profit were the politicians ceos and big massive corps ebay amazon etc. I still dont trust the quality of china v japan and its from past experience - whether this can turn the corner and things change i will keep an open mind too and will be putting this chinese flash gun through its paces over the coming months , my previous ex600s have lasted 2 years and around 60,000 shots each so through proof of the pudding as they say ....


And the consumer forever demanding ever lower prices and not caring where the product comes from.

Let's not forget also that Japanese products were also considered junk before Mr. Demming came along.


----------



## Sporgon (May 4, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> Failure of QC is down to the lack of proper control by the owners of the company - nothing more, nothing less. It is not a national stereotype.
> The British had an appalling reputation for quality of manufactured goods (cars being the most obvious example) - but those were all British companies owned by Brits. The Japanese came in with their Nissan plant and that factory for decades has been the most productive manufacturing plant in Europe, arguably one of the top in the world. By your logic that should not have happened.
> What had failed was British management had failed the workforce and the customer. Not the other way round.
> 
> China turns out some of the best value for money hifi (quality as well as performance) in the world. How does that fit with your prejudice?



Hey don't start dragging up our classic British slobby attitude and car manufacturing ! That was nothing compared with the "forty thieves" from the post Nelson era, when Britain was supposed to rule the waves ;D


----------



## Mikehit (May 4, 2017)

Sporgon said:


> Hey don't start dragging up our classic British slobby attitude and car manufacturing ! That was nothing compared with the "forty thieves" from the post Nelson era, when Britain was supposed to rule the waves ;D




A colleague of mine liked his classic British cars (Jaguars etc...when they were British companies) because they had 'character' as opposed to the 'sterile' German marques. I asked if he mean 'sterile' as in they worked and 
didn't give him much option for DIY maintenance. He just gave me a wry grin....


----------



## LDS (May 4, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> Why?
> You make superior products by having superior QC processes and use superior materials, not by making it in Japan.



Up to a point. You may also need a skilled workforce - and it takes time to train it in some specific jobs, especially when some jobs can't be (yet) automated (or the cost would be too high), and require skillful workers. 

Assembling electronic devices is not, for example, grinding and assembling high-end lenses. 

QC can do little if the number of out of specs products is too high because of the lack of a proper workforce, costs inevitably raise anyway.

A qualified and skilled workforce (for a given job) needs education, training, and years of experience, and that costs as well, and it may not be easily available in some countries. You may be also wary of creating it, because it can create competitors...

For example. China were not able to manufacture good ballpoint pen balls until this year (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-01-16/china-s-latest-innovation-the-ballpoint-pen), and it was no little effort.

I would not be surprised if Canon moved flash production from Japan to China - after all there's very little difference from a flash and a smartphone (but the high voltage part). And now it's trying to automate more even some "L" lenses manufacturing, it may move that too to areas where costs are inferior.


----------



## Mikehit (May 4, 2017)

LDS said:


> Up to a point. You may also need a skilled workforce - and it takes time to train it in some specific jobs, especially when some jobs can't be (yet) automated (or the cost would be too high), and require skillful workers.
> 
> Assembling electronic devices is not, for example, grinding and assembling high-end lenses.
> 
> ...



So in a country of 1.2 billion people it seems they can't find enough people to do skilled jobs like this. We'd better tell Apple before they realise how shoddy their iphones and tablets are...and we had better warn Canon that they have to make sure they have the skilled people fore they start on this high-risk venture. 



> For example. China were not able to manufacture good ballpoint pen balls until this year


And yet they are able to manufacture space rockets, iphones and nuclear power plants...go figure.


----------



## YuengLinger (May 4, 2017)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Andrew Davies Photography said:
> 
> 
> > YuengLinger i agree too with your comments and you have put the case well, I do feel the west has been more than happy to jump on the bandwagon importing everything and anything from china for the sake of a few quid saving and more profit , in the long run that has turned out to be a bad thing for china and its pollution and badly treat workforce and also for the west whom have lost countless jobs and companies. The only people to profit were the politicians ceos and big massive corps ebay amazon etc. I still dont trust the quality of china v japan and its from past experience - whether this can turn the corner and things change i will keep an open mind too and will be putting this chinese flash gun through its paces over the coming months , my previous ex600s have lasted 2 years and around 60,000 shots each so through proof of the pudding as they say ....
> ...



Yes, those pesky middle-class "consumers" (no longer referred to as citizens) who haven't had a pay raise in the USA in 15 years...Because we sent so many jobs overseas! And now come the robots...


----------



## LDS (May 4, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> So in a country of 1.2 billion people it seems they can't find enough people to do skilled jobs like this.



Yes, because skilled people don't "happen". They are created by education, training and experience. When you have 1.2 billions of peasants, and nor the facilities nor the personnel to train them, yes, you won't find enough skilled ones. While a small country like Switzerland or South Korea may have them.

Assembling electronic devices doesn't require highly skilled workers. That's why I pointed out I'm not surprised if flashes are made in China.

But looks at optics. and the huge difference in capabilities that still exists between China (and most of the world...) and Germany/Japan. Remember how Russia raided German factories and deported workers to acquire skills it would take generations to create from scratch, despite being much larger. Remember how the US space program got a big boost by the experienced and skilled German technicians.

China created them in some military sectors (with foreign support..., although hidden), but not in others. That's why it could make some rockets and not balls for pens, and many other goods - including the factories machines - it has to import. That's one of the reason the Japanese government doesn't like Foxconn to buy Toshiba memory business - it would acquire skills to build basic components it hasn't.

Also, that's why when whole sectors close down, it's very difficult to restart them later - you lose all the experienced skilled workforce, and recreating it is not easy nor quick.


----------



## Mikehit (May 4, 2017)

LDS said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > So in a country of 1.2 billion people it seems they can't find enough people to do skilled jobs like this.
> ...



I'm confused. 
The discussion was about whether it is a good idea that Canon have their flashes made in China. You say they don't have enough people able to do jobs like this because 'skilled people don't happen" , then in the next paragraph you say 



> I'm not surprised if flashes are made in China



Do you really think Canon would do this if they did not have the people to do it in China?  Do you think that someone in Canon decided to move production to China without the training? If you believe they did the due diligence, I am not sure what point you are making in the context of this thread.


----------



## LDS (May 4, 2017)

I wonder if you can read more than a few words. I wrote assembling a device like a flash doesn't require highly skilled workers, especially after the tooling and procedures have been refined, so I'm not surprised if Canon moved production to China to decrease production costs (and maybe make room for more demanding production lines), and earn more per unit . I would be much more surprised if they moved production of big whites, for example, because of the skill level required. Hope I've been brief enough...


----------



## YuengLinger (May 4, 2017)

Anybody who believes China is short of brains and talent is suffering from denial or lack of knowledge.

They aren't short of people who understand and celebrate hard work either.

Even with labor costs going up there, it might be more attractive than ever to big multinationals.

Does Canon still have a strong presence in less than stable Thailand? Not surprising if some production has been moved from there.


----------



## Andrew Davies Photography (May 5, 2017)

LDS said:


> I wonder if you can read more than a few words. I wrote assembling a device like a flash doesn't require highly skilled workers, especially after the tooling and procedures have been refined, so I'm not surprised if Canon moved production to China to decrease production costs (and maybe make room for more demanding production lines), and earn more per unit . I would be much more surprised if they moved production of big whites, for example, because of the skill level required. Hope I've been brief enough...



So if it doesnt require skilled workers and you say there could be decreased production costs how are they now charging the most they have ever charged for the unit. Its a £500 flashgun , that is no small amount of money even for a photography business.


----------



## Andrew Davies Photography (May 5, 2017)

Also just going through all the settings features etc , not much changed apart from maybe an easier to use menu system and apparently faster flash which i shall be testing out shortly.

However and this is a BIG however , they STILL havent got a battery level indicator , there is a charge level when you first insert batteries and turn on , which is not useful as as this point the batteries are full charged , and this appears to be only an indicator of the flash charge status and not necessary the battery level ?


----------



## AcutancePhotography (May 5, 2017)

I assume that the flash unit is covered by the Canon warranty. If so, I would not worry too much about it. 

I seriously doubt that Canon just randomly chose some Chinese factory to make products under the Canon name. Pretty sure there are Canon people at these factories and that Canon has checked out the manufacturing process. 

Canon has more to lose in this deal than you do.

I, personally, would not worry too much about it.


----------



## Jopa (May 5, 2017)

As long as it doesn't overheat after 20 full power shots like the Sony F60M, i don't really care where it is made...


----------



## Andrew Davies Photography (May 8, 2017)

Ok some interesting comments on the thread and people saying that the chinese work force is just as good as the japanese. In which case why would you pay for a Canon flashgun when you can get an identical spec Yongnuo ( made in china too ) for a quarter of the price ? and that goes for lenses now too as YN are into the lens game aswell.

If its true that flashes are uncomplicated and can be knocked out anywhere then Canon cannot justify charging £500 for a 600exii when you can get the same for £99 in a yongnuo.


----------



## Mikehit (May 8, 2017)

Andrew Davies Photography said:


> Ok some interesting comments on the thread and people saying that the chinese work force is just as good as the japanese. In which case why would you pay for a Canon flashgun when you can get an identical spec Yongnuo ( made in china too ) for a quarter of the price ? and that goes for lenses now too as YN are into the lens game aswell.



In a word - reliability.
When you set out to manufacture a product you include in the design the materials, the manufacturing tolerances and the QC specification. 
Canon, as a premium manufacturer, will likely use a higher spec for raw materials because it is what the customer expects, whereas a third party would be more free to use lower quality materials. The lower quality materials may be enough for 99% of the people in 99% of situations, but Canon may decide they want it to be suitable for 99.999% of situations and you pay more for that higher specification. Then comes the killer - higher QC standards. Every item that is rejected has to be covered in the pricing of the ones that sell, so the higher your QC, the more rejects, and the higher the price of the ones on the market.

Go onto Amazon and see how many complaints you have about build quality on Youngnuo flashes vs Canon flashes. That is what you pay for. 
Even with lower QC standards, every now and again the third party will put out an absolutely excellent unit and that is when you see comments like 'Superb, as good as any Canon I have had in the past...don't know why people pay for Canon'. But it is in some respects a lottery.
Canon could lower their price if the slackened their QC and had a lower reject rate. But I question how long their reputation would last if they did.

Sigma lenses have this issue - get a good 'un and it is superb, but a lot of people talk about having to try several units to find that good 'un.


----------



## ifp (May 8, 2017)

Andrew Davies Photography said:


> Ok some interesting comments on the thread and people saying that the chinese work force is just as good as the japanese. In which case why would you pay for a Canon flashgun when you can get an identical spec Yongnuo ( made in china too ) for a quarter of the price ? and that goes for lenses now too as YN are into the lens game aswell.



:


----------



## arthurbikemad (May 8, 2017)

Good read.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2090708/Why-iPhone-China-America.html


----------

