# Where are the Rumors? EOS 5D Mark IV



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 19, 2015)

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There’s been a lot of chatter about the EOS 5D Mark III replacement, most of it rooted from a talkative forum member at DPReview. We haven’t played into it, because that sort of detailed information doesn’t come out 6 months before the release of camera, it never has and it never will. Leaks out of Canon has tightened up significantly over the years (my bad), which makes the chanced of such rumors being true, highly unlikely.</p>
<p>There is no imminent announcement for an EOS 5D Mark III replacement and we’ll likely be seeing an EOS-1D X Mark II beforehand. The rumored August 14, 2015 announcement date came and went without a new product from Canon, but we should be seeing something in the next month or so. Please be sure to check sources on posts, we do posts things that aren’t told directly to us.</p>
<p>All that said, the EF 35mm f/1.4L II is the real deal and we should see that shipping before December of this year. Beyond that, the next Canon DSLR is an unknown at this time.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
```


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## sdeutscher (Aug 19, 2015)

I think we should see a 70D replacement in the next 6 months with the new 24mpx sensor from the T6s/i(750D,760D)


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## Chaitanya (Aug 19, 2015)

sdeutscher said:


> I think we should see a 70D replacement in the next 6 months with the new 24mpx sensor from the T6s/i(750D,760D)



Dont forget the Dual Pixel Af capability which will be carried forward into 80D with the new 24Mp sensor. I think Canon will make sure to add Dual Pixel Af into 5D Mk IV as well. I hope adds 4K recording capabilities as well, all the competitors are offerring 4K capable cameras really attractive prices.


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## sanj (Aug 19, 2015)

Is it at all a possibility that 5ds/r are the 5d3 replacements?


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 19, 2015)

sanj said:


> Is it at all a possibility that 5ds/r are the 5d3 replacements?



I can assure you that they are not.


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## Maui5150 (Aug 19, 2015)

The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world he did not exist.


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## Etienne (Aug 19, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> There’s been a lot of chatter about the EOS 5D Mark III replacement, most of it rooted from a talkative forum member at DPReview. We haven’t played into it, because that sort of detailed information doesn’t come out 6 months before the release of camera, it never has and it never will. Leaks out of Canon has tightened up significantly over the years (my bad), which makes the chanced of such rumors being true, highly unlikely.</p>
> <p>There is no imminent announcement for an EOS 5D Mark III replacement and we’ll likely be seeing an EOS-1D X Mark II beforehand. The rumored August 14, 2015 announcement date came and went without a new product from Canon, but we should be seeing something in the next month or so. Please be sure to check sources on posts, we do posts things that aren’t told directly to us.</p>
> <p>All that said, the EF 35mm f/1.4L II is the real deal and we should see that shipping before December of this year. Beyond that, the next Canon DSLR is an unknown at this time.</p>
> <p><em>More to come…</em></p>



I sure hope Canon hits the 5D mk IV out of the park. What I really want is a killer 5D4 paired with a C100 mk III (with full sensor DPAF, better codec, and 4K). The other option is Sony FS7 paired with an A7s II . But I am hoping to stay with Canon


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## xps (Aug 19, 2015)

I heared at an introduction event of the Sony 7RII (where they promoted the superb Batis lenses too) talks about products of the "foe". It was said that Nikon is working on an competitor with an Sony sensor inside in the 800er class. And: Canon is holding back an 5DIII successor as they first do not want to harm the 5DS sells, second they will update their strategy what to put in the 5DIII successor, third the priority is recently on making an 1DX successor. Canon - so I heared - is astonished about the good AF system of the 7RII (not on the IQ (!) of the 7RII) and seems to do a work around on the planned AF system of the 5DIV. 
I personally was astonished about the mentioned "not being in fear" of the 7RII IQ, as it is really an excellent IQ of the 7RII. Maybe, the coming new sensor is better or equal to the Sony IQ, or they say, that the "whole system" (camera and lens) is on par with the competitors.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 19, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We haven’t played into it, because that sort of detailed information doesn’t come out 6 months before the release of camera, it never has and it never will.
> ...



Parts for a new model likely go into the early stages of production 1-2 years in advance. Tooling can take a long time. So some aspects are finalized long in advance.

I'm sure that the camera physical parts are beginning assembly at least 6 months before release. However, firmware is one of the last things to tweak. Adobe has previously said they do not get information from Canon in advance. Canon just does not allow for leaks like giving info to Adobe.


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## tcmatthews (Aug 19, 2015)

I still think that a 5D Mark IV is a spring 2016 announcement. It could really easily turn into a fall 2016 announcement. Probably 2017 before a new 70D successor comes out. That said I would like to be surprised by an early announcement. 

In the mean time I am considering selling my A7II and buying a A7rII. Or picking up a Best buy credit card to purchase a A7II on a 12 month 0 interest loan. That way it will be easier to use my Canon lenses. If the 5D Mark IV is smaller and has an articulating screen I may pick one up otherwise I will wait for the 6DII to make my next Canon purchase discussion. 

I now use my 6D primarily when I want a flash or need to use a long lens. Every thing else I use my Sony. Primarily because I enjoy manual focus. But have been planning on buying more Sony FE mount lenses.


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## NancyP (Aug 19, 2015)

I enjoy manual focus lenses too, but tend to shoot macro or landscape, with some tripod or monopod assistance. Our local brick and mortar store doesn't carry the Sony bodies. How are the ergonomics? "Hand feel" is important to me, as well as weight and size. 60D and 6D are perfect fits for my hands, L bracket on the cameras 100% of the time. I have held a 1DX at the store, feels ginormous, not for me, at least hand-held. I haven't done the Magic Lantern bit, which can give you focusing aids, admittedly on the LCD only, on Canon DSLRs.


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## x-vision (Aug 19, 2015)

tcmatthews said:


> I still think that a 5D Mark IV is a spring 2016 announcement.



I think so too.

I believe we'll only see the announcement of the 1DXII this year.
Probably in October - with the camera likely shipping in the spring of 2016.

The 5DIV is likely to be announced between February-June 2016, IMO.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 19, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We haven’t played into it, because that sort of detailed information doesn’t come out 6 months before the release of camera, it never has and it never will.
> ...



That isn't how I recall the comment. It was more like _'Adobe, and others, are given the RAW file specs, and possibly samples, 6 months out', _that is a completely different thing, there is no way on earth Canon are sending out complete cameras, or there specs, to all and sundry. Adobe and other key software companies need some kind of preempt from Canon to make the cameras attractive to early adopters, if those early adopters are forced to make too many concessions or wait too long to actually manipulate their files they won't buy the cameras.

However, even those pre release files will be subject to last minute changes, hence the delays we sometimes get for ACR updates even after a camera has been out for a while.


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## unfocused (Aug 19, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> dilbert said:
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> > Canon Rumors said:
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Exactly. Not being a programmer, I don't know how much the raw file specs change from one camera to another. I imagine if there is a major rewrite of the code, it would take Adobe and others longer to incorporate that. But, if it's just minor tweaks, it might not take as long. I'm sure Canon and Adobe work hand in hand to make sure that the necessary updates are available as soon as possible. As Private points out, Canon doesn't want to be shipping cameras that have files that cannot be read by Camera Raw and Lightroom.

But honestly, Dilbert, let's try not to be so much of a..."Dilbert." You know full well that that discussion was about Raw files, not about Camera specs. And really, even among the geariest gear-heads on this forum, would anyone really care about a rumor that said, "We've learned that on line 64 of the new Canon 5DIV code there will now be eight zeros and 12 ones, instead of the old code, which had 10 zeros and 10 ones," even if such a rumor were CR3.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 19, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> dilbert said:
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> > Canon Rumors said:
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+1 but some things are beyond the understanding of certain people.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 19, 2015)

xps said:


> I heared at an introduction event of the Sony 7RII (where they promoted the superb Batis lenses too) talks about products of the "foe". It was said that Nikon is working on an competitor with an Sony sensor inside in the 800er class. And: Canon is holding back an 5DIII successor as they first do not want to harm the 5DS sells, second they will update their strategy what to put in the 5DIII successor, third the priority is recently on making an 1DX successor. Canon - so I heared - is astonished about the good AF system of the 7RII (not on the IQ (!) of the 7RII) and seems to do a work around on the planned AF system of the 5DIV.
> I personally was astonished about the mentioned "not being in fear" of the 7RII IQ, as it is really an excellent IQ of the 7RII. Maybe, the coming new sensor is better or equal to the Sony IQ, or they say, that the "whole system" (camera and lens) is on par with the competitors.



That's because the A7rII and Sony sensors are good, but not as amazing as some people might infer. Nikon still manage to produce better images out of the 36MP sensor than Sony but cannot launch a 42MP product for 6 months after the A7rII launches. But Nikon will be in "adjusting firmware and field testing" phase for the D820 or whatever it will be called.

Canon will be surprised on how well Sony has reverse engineered Canon IP, but one wonders if they (Sony/Metabones) will have to tweak things as new Canon lenses are released.

I do concur, no MK IV till 2016 as they are doing fine with the 5Ds/R and don't need to crowd out that space with another 5D model. Pus I think they will wait and see what the 42MP Nikon is like


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## Stu_bert (Aug 19, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We haven’t played into it, because that sort of detailed information doesn’t come out 6 months before the release of camera, it never has and it never will.
> ...



Agree - a CR summary page would be cool...


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## Stu_bert (Aug 19, 2015)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> dilbert said:
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> > Canon Rumors said:
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Yes, given the 3 year cycle, new sensor and AF will be ready around the 12-24 month gate to allow production, although they always have 6 months to produce initial samples as Canon announces and then ships much later


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## Stu_bert (Aug 19, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> dilbert said:
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> > Canon Rumors said:
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yes, that's exactly how it is likely to be - mods to the RAW spec, which I thought was similar to TIFF in the way it worked, and perhaps a sample or two - maybe not even a complete picture or maybe even a simulated RAW ie not from the camera itself - it doesnt have to be real, but the values have to be correct.

And yes, ACR always requires tweaks / testing after the camera has released with full firmware...


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## gggplaya (Aug 19, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> privatebydesign said:
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> 
> > dilbert said:
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Correct, adobe does not need to know anything about the camera, and i doubt canon would give them that information. All adobe needs is a few sample images to work with to dial in default colors and exposure settings.


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## shutterlag (Aug 19, 2015)

That's because Canon has given up. The A7R2 has such superior feature set that the existing plans for the 5Dmk4 have been scrapped.


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## Sporgon (Aug 19, 2015)

shutterlag said:


> That's because Canon has given up. The A7R2 has such superior feature set that the existing plans for the 5Dmk4 have been scrapped.



Very funny, but that 's not the feedback that's coming from many of the back to back tests between the A7RII and the 5Ds. If anything I'm getting a whiff of disappointment in the BIS Exmor R full frame sensor. 

What is interesting is how good both the 7DII and 5Ds are, and that's with a very small pixel pitch. (Forget the DxO crap, I'm referring to people that actually use the cameras). Assuming that the 5DIV has larger pixels and lower density then the efficiency of this future thing could be amazing.

And if it has my idea of a interchangeable viewfinder - optical pentaprism or EVF,coupled with DPAF then it will be another 5DII moment that many have been asking for.


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## LukasS (Aug 19, 2015)

shutterlag said:


> That's because Canon has given up. The A7R2 has such superior feature set that the existing plans for the 5Dmk4 have been scrapped.


Stop taking drugs! They are bad for your health.


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## CanonGuy (Aug 19, 2015)

LukasS said:


> shutterlag said:
> 
> 
> > That's because Canon has given up. The A7R2 has such superior feature set that the existing plans for the 5Dmk4 have been scrapped.
> ...



I agree that *shutterlag* went too far, but I also know that Canon needs to step up. In this world, a tech company can't lag. There's nothing called 'catch up game'. Either you innovate and lead or perish.


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## jeffa4444 (Aug 19, 2015)

With the launch of the Canon 5DS and 5DSr they dont need to rush the 5D MKIV. Not even certain that the 1DX MKII is a priority either given the numbers that are sold. The volume high end cameras are the 70D and the 6D or should be if your upselling so they should be the priority particularly the 6D that has a AF system stuck in the days of the 5D MKII. If correctly featured this could move up to narrow the present gap between the 6D and 5D MKIII in the pricing model and sit where Nikon positioned the D750.


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## pedro (Aug 19, 2015)

My insurance just covered the loss of my 5DIII (bought in August 2012) and the online pricing of my 16-35 F/2.8 USM II lens. It got stolen during an assault earlier this month. So, the 5DIV and the rumored faster Sigma 12-24 would make a perfect combo for me sometime by December 2016...Hoping for another 1/2 or a 3/4 of a stop of better high ISOs. ISO 12800ish 25k would be great. Along with a Sigma I'd be ready for the stars again 8)


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## LonelyBoy (Aug 19, 2015)

CanonGuy said:


> I agree that *shutterlag* went too far, but I also know that Canon needs to step up. In this world, a tech company can't lag. There's nothing called 'catch up game'. Either you innovate and lead or perish.



Why is it that "innovation" is always taken to mean "_sensor_ innovation"?


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## bcflood (Aug 19, 2015)

sdeutscher said:


> I think we should see a 70D replacement in the next 6 months with the new 24mpx sensor from the T6s/i(750D,760D)



I hope so! I've held off on buying a 70D in anticipation of a 80D around the corner.


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## NancyP (Aug 19, 2015)

I finally got sick of the "let's wait until...." game and just bought a 7D2. There will always be something better down the pike. There are still people getting good service from 5 year old 7D originals, I have gotten good service from the less well built 60D for 5 years, here's hoping that the 7D2 lasts 5+ years of birding in crappy as well as good weather.


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## Sporgon (Aug 19, 2015)

NancyP said:


> I finally got sick of the "let's wait until...." game and just bought a 7D2. There will always be something better down the pike. There are still people getting good service from 5 year old 7D originals, I have gotten good service from the less well built 60D for 5 years, here's hoping that the 7D2 lasts 5+ years of birding in crappy as well as good weather.



Let us know what your opinion of the 7DII's output at ISO 100 is compared with the 6D - perfect technique applied of course  I'm tempted by a 7DII myself.


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## Buck (Aug 19, 2015)

I can not see Canon waiting much past Jan. 2016. They will not go into the 2016 Rio Olympics without new high end equipment.


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## unfocused (Aug 19, 2015)

sdeutscher said:


> I think we should see a 70D replacement in the next 6 months with the new 24mpx sensor from the T6s/i(750D,760D)



I doubt that we will see a 70D II/80D until after both the 1D and 5D are released. I expect the next model will continue to be the top level hybrid (video/stills) enthusiast DSLR. 

Add a headphone jack, give the video autofocus variable speed for smoother follow focus, give the stills side a slight improvement in autofocus. Sensor will be DPAF again. Number of megapixels is likely to be determined by whether or not it offers 4K. I expect it will because too many competitors are offering 4K. Megapixels will be scaled to match the needs of 4K. Maybe we will see a new STM lens at the same time.


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## CanonGuy (Aug 19, 2015)

LonelyBoy said:


> CanonGuy said:
> 
> 
> > I agree that *shutterlag* went too far, but I also know that Canon needs to step up. In this world, a tech company can't lag. There's nothing called 'catch up game'. Either you innovate and lead or perish.
> ...



So you accept canon has some 'innovation' to do with sensors right? lol! I hope they do that. That's it.

Argue all you want, sensor is an absolute key part of a camera right? And you'd expect a leading camera manufacturer would get the key part of the camera right/better than others. Isn't that normal?! And as I said, innovate or perish. Time will tell if Canon did the right thing.


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## unfocused (Aug 19, 2015)

Buck said:


> I can not see Canon waiting much past Jan. 2016. They will not go into the 2016 Rio Olympics without new high end equipment.



For the 1Dx II, yes. Although it is the *summer* Olympics, so they've got some time. 5D could be a photokina announcement.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 19, 2015)

CanonGuy said:


> LonelyBoy said:
> 
> 
> > CanonGuy said:
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Well, I don't quite fully follow your argument. Canon isn't innovating in sensors. As an aside, remember they have the highest resolution FF sensor on the market. Or are you referring to low ISO DR again? See how it just keeps getting narrower and narrower and eventually zones in on that low ISO DR thing again. It's a fixation point for some. Remember that Canon, overall, has the best lenses, the best mount (EF), best speedlite system, best service, best AF system, highest resolution sensor, and most importantly, highest sales. 

I guess when you look at it, they are certainly much better off than the completion, wouldn't you say? Or does low ISO DR trump all of that?

Canon produces a system that works. WORKS. No way in hell I'd ever show up to a sports event that I shoot with a Sony A7R II, because I want to keep my job. I don't really give a rats behind of its DR from ISO 100-400.


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## CanonGuy (Aug 19, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> Well, I don't quite fully follow your argument. Canon isn't innovating in sensors. As an aside, remember they have the highest resolution FF sensor on the market. Or are you referring to low ISO DR again? See how it just keeps getting narrower and narrower and eventually zones in on that low ISO DR thing again. It's a fixation point for some. Remember that Canon, overall, has the best lenses, the best mount (EF), best speedlite system, best service, best AF system, highest resolution sensor, and most importantly, highest sales.
> 
> I guess when you look at it, they are certainly much better off than the completion, wouldn't you say? Or does low ISO DR trump all of that?
> 
> Canon produces a system that works. WORKS. No way in hell I'd ever show up to a sports event that I shoot with a Sony A7R II, because I want to keep my job. I don't really give a rats behind of its DR from ISO 100-400.



I totally agree with you. Canon has the best lens, AF, highest MP sensor and highest sales. That's why I am a CPN member for last 4 years  I do not do sports or landscape photography. I only shoot weddings. And I believe they have quite a bit of work to do there. I do not want to mention low ISO DR. Rather I want to ask, is there room for improvement for canon for me and 1000 other wedding photographers? I think the answer is yes. if you think the answer is 'no', then that's absolutely fine. everyone is entitled to their own opinion. but, if canon also thinks that's a 'no', then we have company that's lagging in one area. That one may become two/three in next 2/3 years.

Tech world moves very fast. look at blackberry, nokia, microsoft mobile and so on so on. they were great companies with billions in revenue. all went down in merely 2/3 years. 

anyways, happy clicking.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 19, 2015)

I agree with the low ISO DR. No one will argue that. If I had unlimited assets I may shoot landscapes in the summer and fall with a D810 and 14-24. Or maybe even interior/exterior photos. 

But the other side is that I don't see the competition really doing anything at all to overtake the areas where Canon excels. Maybe some efforts are made here and there, but not to a very significant degree. D750 better overall than the 5D3? Yes I think so, but that doesn't address the overall superiority of Canon's AF system, as an example, or the flash system available to the 5D3 (for a price, yes of course). What is Nikon doing to make better supertele lenses, or f/1.2 lens that AF, or service, or speedlite system? What is Sony doing in those areas? Nothing. So you cannot compare Canon to short-lived companies that came and went.


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## CanonGuy (Aug 19, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> I agree with the low ISO DR. No one will argue that.



Then let's not argue anymore and let's leave it at that. Rest is on Canon's hand.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 19, 2015)

xps said:


> I heared at an introduction event of the Sony 7RII (where they promoted the superb Batis lenses too) talks about products of the "foe". It was said that Nikon is working on an competitor with an Sony sensor inside in the 800er class. And: Canon is holding back an 5DIII successor as they first do not want to harm the 5DS sells, second they will update their strategy what to put in the 5DIII successor, third the priority is recently on making an 1DX successor. Canon - so I heared - is astonished about the good AF system of the 7RII (not on the IQ (!) of the 7RII) and seems to do a work around on the planned AF system of the 5DIV.
> I personally was astonished about the mentioned "not being in fear" of the 7RII IQ, as it is really an excellent IQ of the 7RII. Maybe, the coming new sensor is better or equal to the Sony IQ, or they say, that the "whole system" (camera and lens) is on par with the competitors.



Maybe something was lost in translation. The original 5D has better AF than the A7RII. The onyl way they might fear it is if they fear it's good enough to get the landscape, very basic AF type shooter to 100% swap over to get all the top 4k and stills IQ. But then they say they fear the top 4k and stills IQ not at all.... so yeah very bizarre. Makes no sense! If they think they need to update the 5D4 to get even better AF than planned, but need do nothing about the IQ for stills or video, then wow, Canon is lost beyond lost. But even I don't think they are THAT lost.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 19, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> Pus I think they will wait and see what the 42MP Nikon is like



Might be nice for them to lead once again.
Anyway I'd imagine, it will be pretty astonishing. Think 6fps FF, 7-8 fps APS-C. Nice RAW buffer for the APS-C mode. I'd think they'd port over the oversampled, top 4k video. The stills, they tend to get even more out of it than Sony does. It will be interesting to see if they tweak it for ISO64 and add another 1/2 stop of DR over the A7RII at the low end at the cost of 1/2 stop at high end (even so it would still be, other than A7RII, pretty much class leading high ISO DR). Some pretty solid AF. Lots of little things in the specs NOT left out.

OTOH it won't have the nice Canon UI and even worse it won't have EF mount. But man it might be enough to say heck with the EF mount as superior and totally awesome as it is. A choice between one brand that does it all, but won't take EF. Or having to get two bodies, a Sony to add to some older Canon body for the stuff the Sony can't do but get to use EF on everything.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 19, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> If anything I'm getting a whiff of disappointment in the BIS Exmor R full frame sensor.



really?
did you see even the new high ISO and high ISO DR tests at Fred Miranda. The thing is a beast even at high ISO. It looks like more than a stop better than the A7R in below mid-tones high ISO stuff.

the oversampled 4k without any line skipping or even binning is pretty astonishing


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 19, 2015)

CanonGuy said:


> LonelyBoy said:
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> > CanonGuy said:
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Funny how back in the 20D era all Canon users went on about was how the sensor was all that mattered, back when Nikon tended to have noticeably worse sensors, but better featured bodies. Don't forget that a lot of people went with Canon for DSLR because they had the best sensors. It's not like a 20D had solid AF or anything. Heck I was talking a guy from Getty who was getting so sick of the Nikon sensors he was saying he was seriously thinking of moving to Canon. Now suddenly a DSLR almost might be fine even if they didn't even a put a sensor in it at all ;D.

And yeah of course the otehr stuff matters too, but why bend over backwards to actually CHEER Canon for not even bothering and just sitting back and not bothering as they kings of hill and don't have to do anything (as they so nicely put it during a show in Europe some years back). How the heck does that do any good for the Canon user? Even if you don't want to whine about it, why cheer it and actively fight to knock down any suggestions that they push forward? Root for your local sports team not some mega corp brand!


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 19, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> CanonGuy said:
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> > LonelyBoy said:
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They are way behind in video now, both usability features and actually image quality and specs.
They are now behind for high ISO DR too and with high ISO having limited DR to begin with, the DR affects a greater percentage of tonal area and percent of each shot up there.

And the 5Ds doesn't just work for your sports events anyway so that is a red herring. You'd still need to use a different Canon body for that anyway, at which point, when adding an additional body that won't be a main action body, might not an A7RII or such offer someone a lot more for their buck? Instead of just getting a lot more MP they could also get that plus a lot more DR at low ISO AND now high ISO too it seems as well as much more advanced video. A lot more cost effective and also easier to not need to drag like THREE bodies around and possibly even a second lens system.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 19, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> bdunbar79 said:
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I don't follow. I would most certainly choose the 5Ds for sports over the A7R II. There's no adapter and the AF system is way better. At high ISO, the 1Dx is plenty clean enough. I'd rather have the current tonal range I'm getting and have nailed-down AF vs. better tonality and OOF shots. The more keepers, the better. 5Ds = more keepers too.


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## NancyP (Aug 20, 2015)

I will give the 7D2 some workouts at ISO 100 on tripod, but I expect that it will spend most of its time at ISO 400 to 800, for birds in flight. I tend to shoot either birds/macro (APS-C, for the pixel density - more pixels on bird with same focal length) or landscapes/macro/nightscapes (FF 6D, a splendid camera for those uses).


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## privatebydesign (Aug 20, 2015)

CanonGuy said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I don't quite fully follow your argument. Canon isn't innovating in sensors. As an aside, remember they have the highest resolution FF sensor on the market. Or are you referring to low ISO DR again? See how it just keeps getting narrower and narrower and eventually zones in on that low ISO DR thing again. It's a fixation point for some. Remember that Canon, overall, has the best lenses, the best mount (EF), best speedlite system, best service, best AF system, highest resolution sensor, and most importantly, highest sales.
> ...



But cameras, particularly the ones we most talk about here, are not pure tech items. The much higher investment for most of the people interested in multi thousand dollar DSLR's/FF mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras is in lenses. Your examples were two phone companies (and a third which mistimed buying one of the first two), which we use for a few years and upgrade with no other hardware investment, those don't align with the business model of high end camera systems.

Not suggesting Canon, and all the other camera companies, don't have work to do, just pointing out that the all too often used phrase of 'innovate or die in the tech world' doesn't actually apply particularly well to camera system investments where lenses are upgraded in the ten year or so cycle.


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## Don Haines (Aug 20, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> CanonGuy said:
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> > bdunbar79 said:
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+1
Cameras are expendable. Lenses are an investment....

We expect that our cameras will be obsolete in a few short years, but many of us have lenses that are ten or more years old and expect our recent lens purchases to last that long as well..


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 20, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
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> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



Yeah 5Ds over A7RII for sports, but it doesn't really cut it for sports either. It doesn't even have a true crop mode to get a decent buffer or even just 6fps. So the point is you need anotehr body anyway if you get a 5Ds. It's not really an all-around body either. Less so than the 5D3 was. So at that point, for many, it might be more value to add something like an A7RII to a 5D3 rather than add a 5Ds.


----------



## bdunbar79 (Aug 20, 2015)

Yes I agree with on that.


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## Big_Ant_TV_Media (Aug 20, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> NancyP said:
> 
> 
> > I finally got sick of the "let's wait until...." game and just bought a 7D2. There will always be something better down the pike. There are still people getting good service from 5 year old 7D originals, I have gotten good service from the less well built 60D for 5 years, here's hoping that the 7D2 lasts 5+ years of birding in crappy as well as good weather.
> ...



here various shots i taken with my 7D2 shooting the NFL NY GIANTS
1st image ISO 640


9W9A3581-1 by Bigz Ant, on Flickr
2nd image ISO 800


9W9A3569-1 by Bigz Ant, on Flickr


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## gregory4000 (Aug 20, 2015)

LukasS said:


> shutterlag said:
> 
> 
> > That's because Canon has given up. The A7R2 has such superior feature set that the existing plans for the 5Dmk4 have been scrapped.
> ...



Your missing his point.
What sony did with the A7Rii is offer a lot of great features in one camera.
Great 4K video, Great resolution, Dynamic range that Canon is a bit behind on ( please take no offense). etc...
And with OUTSTANDING pre sales Canon, I hope is taking notice consumers reactions.
Personally, I hope canon is delaying, for the reason of offering us a great all in one camera.
You'ed have to be on drugs not to desire that!


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## privatebydesign (Aug 20, 2015)

dilbert said:


> gggplaya said:
> 
> 
> > Stu_bert said:
> ...



If I do, or did, I wouldn't tell you on an internet forum.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 20, 2015)

dilbert said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Ditto.............


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## privatebydesign (Aug 20, 2015)

dilbert said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Back in the 20D era the differences in Canon and Nikon sensors were huge, now the differences are not as big and they are in specific metrics not overall performance, MP numbers, DR (high iso and low iso), actual iso performance, colour rendering etc etc. If you can't take a good picture with any digital camera nowadays it isn't the sensor that is the problem, back in 2004 that wasn't the case.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 20, 2015)

dilbert said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



AF, lenses, service, speedlites all still suck though.


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## sanj (Aug 20, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Is it at all a possibility that 5ds/r are the 5d3 replacements?
> ...



Thanks!!


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## LonelyBoy (Aug 20, 2015)

CanonGuy said:


> So you accept canon has some 'innovation' to do with sensors right? lol! I hope they do that. That's it.
> 
> Argue all you want, sensor is an absolute key part of a camera right? And you'd expect a leading camera manufacturer would get the key part of the camera right/better than others. Isn't that normal?! And as I said, innovate or perish. Time will tell if Canon did the right thing.



Are you going to admit that Canon does a ton of innovation everywhere else? Because you didn't, in the post I replied to, and none of the other naysayers will either. Why are you treating innovation as if it is exclusively a matter for sensors?


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## Hector1970 (Aug 20, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


But it's still an investment. Not a very good one money wise as with most lens depreciate in value after you buy them. However you have to add the value they give in terms of enjoyment and achievement and maybe then they are a worthwhile investment. Your Apple shares might be worth more but as never get to use them or even physically see them you don't get much enjoyment out of them.
I always think your should spend your money on experiences rather than objects. I find with Lens even though they are an object I enjoy the experience they give me. The initial spike of happiness on purchasing dips a bit but keeps going over time. I still love my 70-200mm II years later or my 24 TSE. I enjoy using them
Camera's are probably relatively more disposable and my glass seems to stay with me longer. Cameras burn out faster than I break lens.
I knew the day the 5DIII came out I wanted it.
I hope its the same with the 5DIV. So far I haven't seen something that would guarantee I'd switch. I haven't seen a wow feature so far. With the 5DIII it fixed alot of the 5D II concerns and was a great all-round package. Its hard to improve upon.
I've been tempted by the 5DS / 5DR but I shoot too generally and under all types of conditions and think they are move for tripod shoot on a perfect day.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 20, 2015)

dilbert said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Reread my ENTIRE post and don't just cut bits and pieces out that help your argument. You are talking about ONE little tiny area of innovation. All of that stuff Sony did was to get more DR at low ISO. Could have gotten higher ISO performance, but nonetheless that's all it did. In the real world it didn't do anything else. 

Sony is in the sensor business. They had better innovate in sensors, because after all, that's their business. Canon is in the system business. Their system far outshines Sony or any other company because all of their stuff works for the vast majority of photographers, amateurs and pros alike. You can't ignore all of the innovations of Canon and point out pretty much the one area they aren't with the competition.

They are not as innovative right now in sensor tech as Sony. They trounce Sony pretty much everywhere else in innovation.


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## scyrene (Aug 20, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Funny how back in the 20D era all Canon users went on about was how the sensor was all that mattered, back when Nikon tended to have noticeably worse sensors, but better featured bodies. Don't forget that a lot of people went with Canon for DSLR because they had the best sensors. It's not like a 20D had solid AF or anything. Heck I was talking a guy from Getty who was getting so sick of the Nikon sensors he was saying he was seriously thinking of moving to Canon. Now suddenly a DSLR almost might be fine even if they didn't even a put a sensor in it at all ;D.



It's probably not the same people, a lot of us have come along in the intervening years. It's also worth pointing out that all sensors have improved since then. It could be that it's an area that's now mature - I don't take a view either way but it's possible. A bit like, you don't tend to judge a phone on its ability to send/store text messages, because they are all more than good enough.


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## danski0224 (Aug 20, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Or to put it differently...
> 
> If you bought $100,000 worth of Canon lenses today and $100,000 worth of Apple or Google stock, in 3 years, which would represent a net gain? The resale of the Canon lenses or the shares?



How does that line go?

Past performance does not indicate future results... or something like that.

If you bought and held, it is possible that there could be very little net change in stock value... or it could go down.


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## LonelyBoy (Aug 20, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Using pixels as autofocus points is innovation.



So, you're willing to concede that Canon's dual-pixel AF is sensor innovation?


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## gsealy (Aug 20, 2015)

Hector1970 said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



You can't look at the purchase of a lens for say $1000 then expect to sell it for more money. We all know it doesn't happen that way unless it is some sort of a collector's item. However, it is still an investment. The reason is that the money spent on the lens allows the user to earn income from using it that they would not otherwise gain. This is the same in any business. If Verizon invests in 4G by buying $Billions of equipment, then they can compete better in the telecom marketplace and make a ton of money. In the end Verizon will depreciate that equipment to $0 and then sell it or scrap it. But they still made money from spending the money on that equipment, so it is very much an investment. 

The thing about a lens is that it has a longer life cycle than a camera. Realistically, a lens is going to have about a 10 year depreciation life, but a camera is probably only about 3 years. So, this means that the user has a longer time to get a 'return' from a lens than from a camera.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 20, 2015)

dilbert said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Bottom line is that your argument that Canon isn't innovating is asinine at best. Canon is innovating in other areas and just because it's not in the area that you want, you draw some stupid conclusion that Canon in general isn't innovating and they are *******. That's what you sound like. Whether that's exactly what you are saying or not is irrelevant because that's the perception you are drawing. Canon innovates in areas A, B, C and Sony innovates in areas D, E, F. Only disadvantages Sony has are 1. Sales, 2. Lenses, 3. Service, 4. AF, 5. Speed lites. Whether Sony innovated with AF in the A7R II doesn't matter; it's still worse than Canon's AF system. I personally, along with other sports photogs and PJ's, still can't use any Sony equipment.


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## zigipha (Aug 20, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



The question was lens vs camera
If you bought a 3k camera and 3k worth of lenses, which would be worth more after 3 years?

The answer (usually) is the lenses.

Also, lenses don't "fall behind the latest" as quickly or as much vs cameras. Cameras are being driven by silicon technology, moores law and all that, and have had leaps and bounds of improvements over the past 10 years.

Glass..not so much. Yes better versions come out, but there is less drive to upgrade glass than to upgrade the camera


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## CanonGuy (Aug 20, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> Bottom line is that your argument that Canon isn't innovating is asinine at best. Canon is innovating in other areas and just because it's not in the area that you want, you draw some stupid conclusion that Canon in general isn't innovating and they are *******. That's what you sound like. Whether that's exactly what you are saying or not is irrelevant because that's the perception you are drawing. Canon innovates in areas A, B, C and Sony innovates in areas D, E, F. Only disadvantages Sony has are 1. Sales, 2. Lenses, 3. Service, 4. AF, 5. Speed lites. Whether Sony innovated with AF in the A7R II doesn't matter; it's still worse than Canon's AF system. I personally, along with other sports photogs and PJ's, still can't use any Sony equipment.



I think Canon systems are best for sports considering fps, AF and lens. No doubt. But many (if no the majority) of the professional bodies are bought by the wedding and and portrait photographers. And I believe, canon bodies are not best there. I am about to retire my backup 5D iii and 6D and I'm considering 810+35 art OR A7r ii+eos adapter. Deny it as you like, I myself have seen quite a few of fellow photographers going to the same route.

I personally seen the demise of companies who were in denial phase. I hope canon is not one of them. I would hate to sell my excellent collection of L glasses.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 20, 2015)

CanonGuy said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Bottom line is that your argument that Canon isn't innovating is asinine at best. Canon is innovating in other areas and just because it's not in the area that you want, you draw some stupid conclusion that Canon in general isn't innovating and they are *******. That's what you sound like. Whether that's exactly what you are saying or not is irrelevant because that's the perception you are drawing. Canon innovates in areas A, B, C and Sony innovates in areas D, E, F. Only disadvantages Sony has are 1. Sales, 2. Lenses, 3. Service, 4. AF, 5. Speed lites. Whether Sony innovated with AF in the A7R II doesn't matter; it's still worse than Canon's AF system. I personally, along with other sports photogs and PJ's, still can't use any Sony equipment.
> ...



Not really a good example. I can tout off anecdotal evidence just like you. I've shot plenty of weddings, know plenty of wedding photographers, and most if not all use a 5D3 and Canon L glass. None I know are changing. Why? Two reasons: 1. AF system of the 5D3 and 2. The flash system (600EX-RT's).

Both examples don't really mean much. Some regions are heavier in Nikon users and others Canon. 

Personally when shooting weddings I rely heavily on AF, which eliminates the A7R II right away. I'd consider the D810, sure. But I'd rather have the security of the AF system of the 1Dx. Since I don't push shadows in wedding photography the DR is plenty and the noise is much less than the D810 at higher ISO's. 

I could use more DR at lower ISO's during noon-time sports events in high sun. That is absolutely awful. There I could certainly use shadow-pushing ability. But I need it in a camera with the AF of the 1Dx.


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## scyrene (Aug 20, 2015)

dilbert said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



How convenient that the things Sony has done are innovations in your eyes. You could spin it differently of course - they've released the largest BSI sensor, but it's just a bigger version of an existing technology. Etc.


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## CanonGuy (Aug 20, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> Not really a good example. I can tout off anecdotal evidence just like you. I've shot plenty of weddings, know plenty of wedding photographers, and most if not all use a 5D3 and Canon L glass. None I know are changing. Why? Two reasons: 1. AF system of the 5D3 and 2. The flash system (600EX-RT's).
> 
> Both examples don't really mean much. Some regions are heavier in Nikon users and others Canon.
> 
> ...



Absolutely agree that Canon AF is the best. That's why 5d 3 is my main body and will be for a while till i get my hands on 5d 4. I never had a 1dx cause it's AF and fps is overkill for me. But kudos to Canon for that amazing body.

I'm based in toronto and I have a few of my fellow mates who added another body to their lineup other than canon. not as the main body, yet. but certainly those bodies let them be more creative and push the limit. i'll follow the suite. but mentioning again, not replacing my main body with non-canon yet, but definitely getting a non-canon for my next addition. although i would have preferred to give my business to canon if i had the option. come on canon!


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## Sportsgal501 (Aug 20, 2015)

CanonGuy said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Bottom line is that your argument that Canon isn't innovating is asinine at best. Canon is innovating in other areas and just because it's not in the area that you want, you draw some stupid conclusion that Canon in general isn't innovating and they are *******. That's what you sound like. Whether that's exactly what you are saying or not is irrelevant because that's the perception you are drawing. Canon innovates in areas A, B, C and Sony innovates in areas D, E, F. Only disadvantages Sony has are 1. Sales, 2. Lenses, 3. Service, 4. AF, 5. Speed lites. Whether Sony innovated with AF in the A7R II doesn't matter; it's still worse than Canon's AF system. I personally, along with other sports photogs and PJ's, still can't use any Sony equipment.
> ...



Just checked a fellow photographer (weddings mainly but they do sports) what pops up on their instagram but a new Sony A7
What!! He owns 2 1Dx and a 5D MarkIII not anymore keeping the 1Dx for sports sold the 5DMARKIII. And this guy is Canon all the way but I knew when he picked up that Sony A6000 the temptation would be strong.


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## jeffa4444 (Aug 20, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> CanonGuy said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...


Silly question maybe but have you actually used the Sony A7rII? Its not actually on sale yet in the UK (due) and Im sure still rare in the US. I never write something off until Ive tested it or used it and your assumptions about its AF dont jazz with people who have tested it.


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## unfocused (Aug 20, 2015)

dilbert said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Sources please. Please provide 1-year, 3-year and 5-year sales data for both companies, preferably from a third-party source. Of course, one-year trends are unreliable, since different companies have different release schedules for their cameras. So, thus the need for multi-year data.

And, is that for DSLR/ILCs or for fixed-lens or for a combination of the two? Since this thread concerns the 5D IV, please provide information on the relative sales of the 5D vs. Sony. Ideally, it would be best to also correct for the year of release, perhaps provide the sales numbers for the 5DIII in its first year after introduction as opposed to any Sony ILC in its first year after introduction, so we can compare the relative market share of comparable models. 

And, of course, please provide not only percentage growth/loss year over year, but actual numbers as well. It will give us a better pictures as to the relative market share of each company.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 21, 2015)

jeffa4444 said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > CanonGuy said:
> ...



Silly question? I had other adjectives, but yes I have. 

So, not surprisingly, you're completely wrong.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 21, 2015)

unfocused said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



You don't need sources in dilbertland. You can say that Walmart's sales are higher than Canon's sales so Walmart must be more innovative than Canon. That's typical logic of dilbertland. Sometimes in dilbertland you may also infer that Walmart must be more innovative in sensor technology for DSLR's and MILC's if sales are higher than Canon. A stretch yes, but sometimes occurs.


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## CanonGuy (Aug 21, 2015)

unfocused said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



You keep analyzing 5, 10 or 100 year data. While me and a number of photographers buy something that suits (at least for the backup body). 

I just hope Canon is not analyzing last 100 year data to keep them assured that everything's fine. 

Denial is fine in personal level. When a company goes into denial phase, the consumers deny that company too.


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## unfocused (Aug 21, 2015)

CanonGuy said:


> You keep analyzing 5, 10 or 100 year data. While me and a number of photographers buy something that suits (at least for the backup body).
> 
> I just hope Canon is not analyzing last 100 year data to keep them assured that everything's fine.
> 
> Denial is fine in personal level. When a company goes into denial phase, the consumers deny that company too.



You do understand that your reasoning is a non-sequitur.

Dilbert: Canon sales are shrinking.

Me: Please back that up with some data.

You: I don't need any data. I buy something that suits me. Canon does not suit me. Therefore Canon is in trouble.

Me: What? Huh?


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## privatebydesign (Aug 21, 2015)

dilbert said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > I could use more DR at lower ISO's during noon-time sports events in high sun. That is absolutely awful. There I could certainly use shadow-pushing ability. But I need it in a camera with the AF of the 1Dx.
> ...



Given recent results I'd say Canon improving it's IQ is more likely. Actual users of the 5DS/R are actually very complimentary of the IQ boost over the 5D MkIII.

Meanwhile videos like this are demonstrating how compromised even the 'new improved and all conquering AF via adapter' of the Sony actually is, if that was an EOS-M4 everybody would be saying how crap it is, go figure.................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuJ4XWc1Jv8

For that vocal few here the Canon cup will always be half empty, meanwhile the Sony/Nikon cup will always be overflowing with amazing innovative goodness, it really is kinda boring, the literal contortions and rewriting history are beyond farcical now.

Absolute idiocy like this, 



dilbert said:


> .........7DII comes in at 12.9 vs the 7D at 8.3. Which would make the 7DII 50% noisier than the 7D! Canon went a bit backwards there.



Just ask anybody who shoots a 7D MkII if it is 50% noisier.


And the complete misrepresentation and singular narrow definition of word like investment 



> in·vest·ment
> inˈves(t)mənt/
> noun
> noun: investment; plural noun: investments
> ...



It doesn't just mean to make money and that isn't how I used it! 

I meant that to use our cameras we need to buy lenses, generally those lenses last longer than the digital tech in the bodies, plus many of the lenses, and certainly when you add them up, account for a far higher percentage of a photographers (pro or CR reading amateur) expenditure on camera gear, unlike a $700 phone where we might buy a cover for $25, there is no reason to stick with that brand when the contract ends and you get an upgrade. Who cares about the $25 case, who doesn't care about the $5,000-$15,000 tied up in lenses? 

And before you go back to the _'but the Sony can focus EF lenses better than EOS cameras can'_ nonsense, watch that YouTube video again. If you find that totally compromised joke as a solution to getting the sensor you 'need' then have at it, just go cry on the Sony forums after the 1000th missed shot.


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## unfocused (Aug 21, 2015)

dilbert said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Except that's not really a pertinent point because it is just one isolated bit of information and does nothing to provide an accurate picture of either company's long or short term prospects. 

I expect you are relying on these stories:

[quote author=Reuters, June 30, 2015]
“Sony is only just emerging from decline, booking a net loss of 126 billion yen in its latest fiscal year, though it expects a profit of 140 billion yen in the current year.

The move (Issuing $2.62 billion in stock) caught investors by surprise on Tuesday, with fears the new stock will dilute per-share earnings sending the stock 8.3 percent lower at the close.” [/quote]

So, we know that Sony lost 126 billion yen last year, but hopes to make 140 billion yen this year. And, we know they are going to issue stock and borrow for a total of $4 billion. If you feel comfortable investing your money in Sony based on that, go right ahead.

[quote author=Reuters, July 27, 2015]
Japan's Canon Inc cut its earnings outlook for the full year and reported a 16 percent fall in quarterly profit as consumers, increasingly in the habit of taking photos with their smartphones, bought fewer compact digital cameras.

The world's largest camera maker said on Monday its second-quarter net profit fell to 68 billion yen ($552 million) compared with 81 billion yen a year earlier. Analysts on average expected 65 billion yen, according to Thomson Reuters data.

The firm said it now expects* full-year profit of 245 billion yen *rather than the 255 billion it forecast three months ago. [/quote]

So Canon is projecting 245 billion net profit this year. Which is 105 billion more than Sony is projecting. And, while this article does not state what Canon's profits were last year, we know they made a profit, since they project to make a slightly smaller *profit* this year, while Sony suffered a loss last year. 

So, again, if you want to divest yourself of Canon stock because they aren't going to make as large of a profit this year as they did last year, go right ahead. 

As for me, I'd rather look at the whole picture: The companies' track records; their relative market positions; their commitment to the market; etc. etc.


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## unfocused (Aug 21, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> And the complete misrepresentation and singular narrow definition of word like investment...
> It doesn't just mean to make money and that isn't how I used it!



Well there is this (a bit dated): http://www.canonpricewatch.com/canon-lenses-better-stocks/


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## barracuda (Aug 21, 2015)

dilbert said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Dilbert, you may have to dig a little deeper into Canon's financials so as not to mislead.

Canon's second quarter results ending June 30, 2015 can be found here: http://www.canon.com/ir/results/2015/rslt2015q2e.pdf

In it, while they do say "demand continued to decline for interchangeable-lens digital cameras and digital compact cameras", they go on to say that "Within the Imaging Systems Business Unit, although total sales volume of interchangeable-lens digital cameras declined due to market shrinkage, unit sales of interchangeable-lens digital cameras *increased* from the same period of the previous year in Japan thanks to healthy demand for such new models as the EOS 5DS, EOS 5DS R, and EOS M3."

They further state that "As for digital compact cameras, although sales volume declined amid the ongoing contraction of the market due to the effects of the growing popularity of smartphones, *profitability improved* thanks to the growing ratio of high-added-value models featuring high image quality and high-magnification zoom capabilities, along with a smooth transition from old products to new products."

In the supplemental section of the report, where Canon breaks down sales by geographic area and business unit, they report the following for their Imaging System unit, which includes digital cameras:

2Q2015=2nd quarter 2015
1H2015=1st half 2015

Change year over year:

Japan: 2Q2015 = +21.7%, 1H2015 = -7%
Americas: 2Q2015 = +7.8%, 1H2015 = +3.3%
Europe: 2Q2015 = -9.1%, 1H2015 = -10.8%
Asia and Oceania: 2Q2015 = -6.7%, 1H2015 = -4.9%
Total: 2Q2015 = 0.0%, 1H2015 = -4.8%

So in the second quarter, digital camera sales actually increased in Japan and the Americas; they decreased in Europe and Asia/Oceania (presumably ex-Japan); and overall, the Imaging System unit was flat (0.0%) in the second quarter.

Your comment, "Sony's sales are growing, Canon's sales are shrinking" is misleading on at least a couple of points:

Your inference in this context is that Canon (and Sony, for that matter) only sell digital cameras, which of course isn't the case. Further, you're implying that Canon cameras are losing market share to Sony, which is not stated anywhere in Canon's financials that I could find. They do, however explain that "sales volume declined amid the ongoing contraction of the market due to the effects of the growing popularity of smartphones", which we all are well aware of.

Further, they state that "unit sales of interchangeable-lens digital cameras increased from the same period of the previous year in Japan thanks to healthy demand for such new models as the EOS 5DS, EOS 5DS R, and EOS M3.". One can infer that this is the case for the Americas as well, since second quarter and first half sales from their Imaging Systems increased 7.8% and 3.3%, respectively.

While it's true that digital camera sales declined in Europe and Asia/Oceania, there is no indication from the financials that the declines in those regions were due to market share losses to Sony or any other competitor. It may just be because Europe has been in an economic slowdown for some time, and China's growth is beginning to slow as well. One has to look no further than China's recent stock market meltdown to gauge their level of discretionary spending.

Hope this helps.


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## barracuda (Aug 21, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Sensors have improved, yes. Well kind of. Look at the numbers on sensorgen.
> 
> For example, the 30D has similar read noise to the 6D (27 & 26 e-), the 70D is down to 13e- and amazingly the 7DII comes in at 12.9 vs the 7D at 8.3. Which would make the 7DII 50% noisier than the 7D! Canon went a bit backwards there.



Not that I believe everything Northrup says, but he appears to discredit your notion that the 7D2 went "backwards" compared to the 7D in terms of noise. The whole video sets up his observations, but the 7D2 vs. 7D comparison starts at 7:25.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTuBr0W0Zhw&list=PLwIVS3_dKVpsjSZrQ7H-Nw8GQ7ZuDYyaD&index=30

He further argues that the 7D2 is only 3% worse in "Sensor Efficiency" than the Nikon D810. Extrapolating, Northrup argues that Canon has made a huge leap in image quality. He claims that if they Canon can make the image sensor bigger and scale it to full frame, Canon will be able to match the D810 noise levels. For this reason, he is looking forward to the release of the 5D Mark IV. This discussion starts at approximately 13:33.


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## jeffa4444 (Aug 21, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...


http://reviews.gizmodo.com/heres-how-fast-canon-lenses-focus-on-the-new-sony-a7r-m-1725106830
http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_Alpha_A7r_II/
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6884391759/sony-alpha-7r-ii-can-match-or-beat-dslr-low-light-af-performance?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=related-news&utm_medium=text&ref=related-news

Three different reviews, three different people, all stating how good the AF is and there are others.


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## jeffa4444 (Aug 21, 2015)

Canon Rumors often quote the Lens Rental guys here is a brief review of the Sony A7r II 

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/08/sony-a7r-ii-a-brief-review


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## jeffa4444 (Aug 21, 2015)

dilbert said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Except that's not really a pertinent point because it is just one isolated bit of information and does nothing to provide an accurate picture of either company's long or short term prospects.
> ...


Your both comparing Apples to Oranges. Sony has a much larger product / division portfolio than Canon and its domestic electronics business plus mobile has been the real issue. The sensor business where the $ 4BN is mainly going has 40% of the global market and Sony is upgrading its fab plants and investing in more R&D because the growth in the sensor market is predicted to remain double digit, its a company in transition. Canon divided into three divisions Office, Imaging, Industrial & other is seeing falls in Imaging, slight growth in Office and serious investment into Industrial & other to beef up Surveillance. The irony is Sony is a customer of Canon & Canon a customer of Sony but there the similarity end.


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## Sporgon (Aug 21, 2015)

barracuda said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Sensors have improved, yes. Well kind of. Look at the numbers on sensorgen.
> ...



I don't find the min read noise figures on the sensorgen site have much relevance. However i wouldn't say the same for the QE and max saturation figures. There's something practical in these, though I'm not sure exactly how it works out. Maybe a combination of QE and saturation.

The reason I mention it is because back in the day I found the 20D to be a very pleasing camera. When the 30D came out with it's larger screen I got one of those, and was immediately disappointed with the results compared with the 20D, especially so as it appeared to have the same sensor - 8 mp if I remember rightly.

Looking at the Sensorgen info you'll see that although the sensor specs between the 20D and 30D appeared to be identical from Canon, Sensorgen has the QE of the 20D at 35% and saturation at 80911 and the 30D at 33% and 45363 respectively. Quite a difference in saturation capacity despite the same size pixels. In fact I would say that the 30D was the worst EOS I ever used. 

Also some cameras that I really liked the IQ from have _either_a relatively high QE or max sat readings, for instance the D200 - good 53% QE but 'poor' max sat, whereas cameras that I really didn't like, like the Pentax K7, had both low QE _and_ max saturation capacity. 

If you look at the 7DII / 70D results you can see that the 7DII does have improvements over the 70D, probably microlens tech / quality etc. 

The information also shows that the quality of the sensor infrastructure on the 6D and 5DIII are probably similar despite the difference in price of the cameras. 

So I can't really put my finger on exactly what practical info the site is giving us. I really like the 5D (original) - low QE but very high max sat. Maybe this tells us to overexpose the 5D slightly and get the best IQ currently available at low ISO 

I'll just add that another camera I really admire the low ISO 'IQ' from is the 1Dx, and this is a camera that has both high QE and very high sat sat capacity. 

Unfortunately the 1Dx is both far too large and far too expensive for my tastes !


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## massive (Aug 21, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Sony's profit reports are trending up and Canon's are trending down.



which company has sold more DSLRs year on year?


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## unfocused (Aug 21, 2015)

massive said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Sony's profit reports are trending up and Canon's are trending down.
> ...



Keep in mind that in Dilbertland, one year is a trend.


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## mikekx102 (Aug 22, 2015)

Its going to be so awesome when the 5D Mark IV is announced and we can all discuss the specs 

Right now its just like Canon Rumors is Dilbert v. Everyone and Everyone v. Dilbert.  

I'm waiting until this body comes out and I'll upgrade from my 6D. I'm hoping for the following:
- A really good (perhaps interactive) Micro AF Adjust. At the moment its a bit over my head to be honest (and my lenses are good enough).
- Super awesome AF - I want to take action photos at 200mm f2 and my 6D leaves a lot to be desired.
- 8+ FPS - I'd like a baby 1DX
- Intelligent AF - to track the eyes and colours
- Spot metering on many points and expose to the skin tones of the model
- better low light performance 
- dual ISO mode built in
- headphone jack
- ettl-III (why not?)
- wifi and gps are things that i dont mind either way, but would be very nice
- base iso (not extended) less than 100.
- 18+ Megapixels
- very low light focusing ability
- higher flash sync speed
- somewhat weather sealed
- better DR (but this is not the highest on my list)
- 1080p with better quality and lower compression
- 1080p and 720p at more like 120 fps or so
- anti-flicker mode
- dual CFast 2.0
- Master Radio flash transmitter built in

Mike.


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## unfocused (Aug 22, 2015)

I'll play. It's certainly more fun than responding to our favorite troll.



mikekx102 said:


> Its going to be so awesome when the 5D Mark IV is announced and we can all discuss the specs
> 
> Right now its just like Canon Rumors is Dilbert v. Everyone and Everyone v. Dilbert.
> 
> ...


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## sanj (Aug 22, 2015)

barracuda said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



Nicely written.


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## barracuda (Aug 22, 2015)

dilbert said:


> barracuda said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Yes he does. He uses DxoMark Sensor/ISO Scores as the basis for his argument. I guess you missed that.


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## barracuda (Aug 22, 2015)

dilbert said:


> barracuda said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Not true. Improved margins increases profitability as well. A company can have increased profits even when the top line (revenue/sales) decreases.

In fact, Canon's financials state: "profitability improved thanks to the growing ratio of high-added-value models featuring high image quality and high-magnification zoom capabilities, along with a smooth transition from old products to new products." Are you disputing that statement or just ignoring the parts of the financials that don't support your position?

When you say that "Canon's profits are dropping", that refers to all their business units which, in addition to digital cameras, include office multifunction devices (MFD's) and semiconductor lithography products . If you're going to refer to Canon's financials in this forum, I believe the relevant numbers to be considered are those pertaining to camera sales, and those numbers indicate an overall year-over-year flat 2nd quarter.

Once again, you may have to dig a little deeper into Canon's financials so as not to mislead.


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## LonelyBoy (Aug 22, 2015)

gsealy said:


> You can't look at the purchase of a lens for say $1000 then expect to sell it for more money. We all know it doesn't happen that way unless it is some sort of a collector's item. However, it is still an investment. The reason is that the money spent on the lens allows the user to earn income from using it that they would not otherwise gain. This is the same in any business. If Verizon invests in 4G by buying $Billions of equipment, then they can compete better in the telecom marketplace and make a ton of money. In the end Verizon will depreciate that equipment to $0 and then sell it or scrap it. But they still made money from spending the money on that equipment, so it is very much an investment.
> 
> The thing about a lens is that it has a longer life cycle than a camera. Realistically, a lens is going to have about a 10 year depreciation life, but a camera is probably only about 3 years. So, this means that the user has a longer time to get a 'return' from a lens than from a camera.



You do understand that an "investment" can be "any allocation of a resource to a purpose", right? The fact that it's often taken, now, to mean "allocation of money into a financial product intended to return a gain" does not mean that that's the only definition, nor that you can correct people who use it otherwise.

Buying a lens is absolutely an investment. It's not an investment that's likely to return a profit upon hypothetical resale, but it is an investment. For a pro it may even provide a financial gain overall, but it's still an investment for an amateur.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 23, 2015)

jeffa4444 said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > jeffa4444 said:
> ...



http://joshanon.com/blog/2015/08/09/from_canon_to_sony_almost

Real world review from someone using Canon and wanting to migrate.

Tony Northrup's video review is similar (but more successful). 

I have also seen a video review via sonyalpha with a guy shooting a tennis player with a 600mm f/4.

No dispute that it definitely helps if you want to transition, plus a $600 attachment is cheaper than a decent Zeiss/Sony lens. But, it is does seem to depend on the lens you are using it with, the focal length, whether your subject is static or you tracking it, and whether you are taking a single shot or burst. 

Just as per the D8xx and 5Ds/R, I suspect we will see a list of what lenses work well, what ones are acceptable, and which ones cause problems.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 23, 2015)

Who cares how good the AF is? It's not better than my gear, so that's all that matters. Nothing to offer me.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 23, 2015)

Just like DxOmark scores, people tend to extrapolate things. Just because the AF was improved in the A7R II, that automatically means it's the best AF system in the world, including over the 1Dx. Which is ridiculous of course. But hey, if you want to, go ahead:


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## unfocused (Aug 24, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> Who cares how good the AF is? It's not better than my gear, so that's all that matters. Nothing to offer me.



I think this is more significant than many people realize. I may be taking too many liberties with your comment, but it seems to me that there are many customers of many brands and products who really aren't interested in chasing the latest technology. That's something that often gets lost on this forum. 

If you have a product that meets your needs and is working well, most people aren't going to jump ship on a whim. That's true of both professionals and amateurs. In fact, it may be even more true of professionals. Regardless of the business, professionals tend to stick with what they know works for them. There are too many risks involved in switching brands. 

Honestly, photographic technology has reached the point where differences between brands and models are very small; and one always knows that whatever one company releases, the rest will soon follow with something similar or even a little better.


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## kubelik (Aug 25, 2015)

unfocused said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Who cares how good the AF is? It's not better than my gear, so that's all that matters. Nothing to offer me.
> ...



unfocused, your point not only stands from brand-to-brand, it's even true within a single brand now. I can't imagine anyone who's shooting with a 5D Mk 3 right now will feel a dire need to upgrade to a 5D Mk 4 when it releases - simply because, to be honest, the 5D Mk 3 is a really, really great camera.

I remember stalking the web hungrily before the 5D Mk 3 announcement, desperate to get something that improved the AF and FPS performance of my 5D Mk 2 ... and pretty much from the moment I traded in for the Mk 3, I've barely felt any compulsion to browse camera body rumors. Lenses ... haha, that's another story. Still hoping that Canon will release a 500mm f/5.6 prime...


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## jrista (Aug 25, 2015)

Really hoping we get some news on the 5D IV soon. It's the only Canon camera I am interested in at the moment, as a replacement for my 5D III. The 5D III is really long in the tooth, and I'm not happy with its IQ. The 5Ds/r, on the other hand, has shown some decent improvements in IQ. If those improvements move over to the 5D IV, without any increases (and preferably with reductions) in noise, along with a higher frame rate (preferably 8fps), I'll be a happy camper. 

I'm just starting to wonder when....it's been a long time now...


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## AlanF (Aug 25, 2015)

[/quote]

unfocused, your point not only stands from brand-to-brand, it's even true within a single brand now. I can't imagine anyone who's shooting with a 5D Mk 3 right now will feel a dire need to upgrade to a 5D Mk 4 when it releases - simply because, to be honest, the 5D Mk 3 is a really, really great camera.

I remember stalking the web hungrily before the 5D Mk 3 announcement, desperate to get something that improved the AF and FPS performance of my 5D Mk 2 ... and pretty much from the moment I traded in for the Mk 3, I've barely felt any compulsion to browse camera body rumors. Lenses ... haha, that's another story. Still hoping that Canon will release a 500mm f/5.6 prime...
[/quote]

+1 for camera and lens


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## bedford (Aug 27, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> Who cares how good the AF is? It's not better than my gear, so that's all that matters. Nothing to offer me.



Well, I really would like to know how good the AF of the A7RII really is in comparison to DSLRs. Some claim it's superior (dpreview), others say the opposite. And I mean in a photographically relevant context.

Oliver


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## pedro (Aug 29, 2015)

jrista said:


> Really hoping we get some news on the 5D IV soon. It's the only Canon camera I am interested in at the moment, as a replacement for my 5D III. The 5D III is really long in the tooth, and I'm not happy with its IQ. The 5Ds/r, on the other hand, has shown some decent improvements in IQ. If those improvements move over to the 5D IV, without any increases (and preferably with reductions) in noise, along with a higher frame rate (preferably 8fps), I'll be a happy camper.
> 
> I'm just starting to wonder when....it's been a long time now...



jon, just subscribed to your great wordpress blog btw... The 5DIII I had got stolen due to an assault earlier this month but as insurance fully covered the loss I am in the waiting line for a next 5D body sometime by the end of next year... I really liked the cam, not having an 1DX still handheld ISO 12800 photography resulted quite usable. But yes, I hope for real improvement in high ISO IQ... Wish that the 5DX at 18 MP/5DC really hits the shelves... Or they give us an 24 MP sensor with at least 1/2 to 3/4 stop of improvement in IQ. But being aware of your knowledge this might remain wishful thinking


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## jrista (Sep 3, 2015)

pedro said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Really hoping we get some news on the 5D IV soon. It's the only Canon camera I am interested in at the moment, as a replacement for my 5D III. The 5D III is really long in the tooth, and I'm not happy with its IQ. The 5Ds/r, on the other hand, has shown some decent improvements in IQ. If those improvements move over to the 5D IV, without any increases (and preferably with reductions) in noise, along with a higher frame rate (preferably 8fps), I'll be a happy camper.
> ...



I just hope the 5D IV gets similar relative IQ improvements as the 7D II and 5Ds did. That's all. I don't much hope for Canon to do anything radical in the sensor space. I read about sensor news a few times a week. Canon isn't even a blip on the outer edge of the radar when it comes to sensor technology. They are so far behind the times, there isn't any point in talking about it. 

That said, there was a visible improvement with the 5Ds IQ. It did not gain much in base DR (unscaled DR)...Canon's DR performance has effectively been flat. On a normalized basis, depending on what you normalize to, the improvement may be around a stop. That's decent, but nothing to write home about. 

With what I use my 5D III for, AF system, metering, power to drive the AF of large & heavy lenses, frame rate, buffer depth, etc. are more important factors. I could really, really use reliable AF at 8fps in a 5D style body. By reliable, I mean AF that does not jitter between frames. The 7D jittered a ton between frames, so the effective frame rate (where you got decently in focus or ideally focused frames) was more like 5fps. The 5D III still has some jitter, and I don't feel it's got a practical FPS much faster than 5fps either. Having the ability to acquire and maintain focus lock at 8fps while tracking a moving subject without having a largish percentage of the frames pop out of focus (i.e. completely unusable) would be extremely useful for me. I could indeed use the better iTR metering and AF capabilities with a high res RGB metering sensor as well, especially for BIF (the 5D III is ok for BIF, but far from great...the iTR tech from the 7D II would really help that.) 

At the moment, I still believe that a dedicated PDAF unit in a DSLR is still a better way of achieving that, hence my interest in the 5D IV. 

I don't know how long that will remain true, though. I need to test the A7r II with my 600mm lens, see how it does. I'm very curious to see if it could be usable for BIF. The biggest drawback with the A7r II for BIF is it would need to be done on a tripod...the small mirrorless body is a non-starter for hand-held BIF with a lens that large.


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## kubelik (Sep 8, 2015)

jrista, purely out of curiosity and not meant to be sarcastic - what's keeping you from investing in a 1D-type body? from your webpage and based on your comment above, it sounds like at least for the wildlife part that a 1D X (or even perhaps an older 1D Mark IV) could be a better fit for half of what you do, no?


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## jrista (Sep 12, 2015)

kubelik said:


> jrista, purely out of curiosity and not meant to be sarcastic - what's keeping you from investing in a 1D-type body? from your webpage and based on your comment above, it sounds like at least for the wildlife part that a 1D X (or even perhaps an older 1D Mark IV) could be a better fit for half of what you do, no?



The 1D bodies are just too expensive, and the gains are becoming marginal. There isn't going to be much if any real IQ benefit. Maybe some relative to other Canon cameras...it's really tough for me to spend that kind of money when I can have top notch IQ in a competitor's camera for much less. 

There is probably at least twenty grand worth of equipment I need to buy for astrophotography. I'm buying things bit by bit, and I'm looking at spending somewhere around $5500 to $6000 on a mono CCD camera and a couple sets of filters soon here. I put about $2800 into a new 8" Ritchy-Cretien telescope and robotic focuser and a bunch of additional parts to adapt my 5D III for use with it earlier this year. I also need a new mount, something much more reliable than the one I have (which cost me $1400), and that will cost me about $7000-$10,000. Finally, at some point, after I get the mount, I have plans to get a larger telescope. Something larger than my current mount can handle. It will either be a 14" Celestron EdgeHD, which is about $5000, or a 16" Ritchy-Cretien Truss design, which is about $8000. 

Buying expensive Canon equipment just isn't in the books in the face of all that.  I'd be willing to spend $3000 on a 5D Mark IV if it had solid improvements in frame rate, metering, and AF performance, as well as at the very least the same level of IQ improvements as the 7D II and 5Ds. I'd obviously prefer IQ on the level of an Exmor, but I stopped holding out hope for that a long time ago, and have no intention of building up hopes for it any time soon. The 5D IV, if it gives me the performance characteristics I need and want, will probably be my last Canon camera for a long time. 

If Sony keeps improving their adaptive AF technology in the future, and I can get Canon-like AF performance with my 600mm f/4 lens out of say an A7r III with at least 6-7 fps, it is entirely possible I'll ditch Canon bodies alltogether. They just....don't impress me anymore. I'm a details oriented guy. The details matter to me. Canon has been ignoring a detail that REALLY matters to me for a very, very long time...instead trotting out vaporware products like 120mp DSLRs and 250mp sensors every couple of years to rattle the cage and keep people interested, rather than investing that money on creating something real, tangible, that they can put into an actual consumer product that people can put in their hands and use. That irks me, as I waited, loyally, for too many years, and never got the IQ improvements I was looking for, while the rest of the DSLR & mirrorless world kept plowing forward.


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