# What is 20,000 shutter clicks worth?



## TexPhoto (Aug 13, 2013)

I just bought a 1D Mark IV on eBay, and got a pretty good deal. I paid $2925 and $30 for shipping. Looks flawless, and only has 7500 shutter clicks (according to the listing) Problem is the camera has 26,996. (according to EOScount.com) Other than that the camera is spot on. Looks flawless, has the accessories (2 batteries, A/C adapter, big 2 batt charger)

There was another hick-up in that the buyer emailed me asking for $35 more for shipping and seemed to think it was my fault that shipping was higher than his prediction. I explained that I did not pick the shipping (set before the auction), or send the invoice with $30 shipping after the auction. A buyer can't even change the shipping, it's set by the seller. I was considering paying all or part of it when it arrived, but felt a little strong armed by the first emails.

Anyway, I think 19,494 clicks is a bit much to overestimate. And I intend to request the price is lowered, or return the camera. I don't "need" it. It was sort of a birthday gift for myself and an upgrade to my 7D. 

What do you think? Just return it? Just suck it up? Ask for a partial refund? $300?


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## mwh1964 (Aug 13, 2013)

20.000 shutter clicks is like nothing on a pro body. Don't worry about it. Enjoy the camera instead. Just my opinion though.


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## Jim Saunders (Aug 13, 2013)

On principle send it back. On pragmatism consider what it would cost new and how much a new shutter will cost; Do you expect to wear it out?

Jim


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## Canon1 (Aug 13, 2013)

At the least I would report the seller to eBay for selling items not as described and for the shipping issue. Otherwise if the camera is sound, enjoy it. Never hurts to ask for partial refund and getting eBay involved might help facilitate this. 

At the end of the day you still got a great deal, just a bummer it didn't go smoothly.


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## PeterJ (Aug 13, 2013)

I guess if you wanted to put a dollar figure on it the extra is about 6% of the rated count. Not sure exactly what a replacement shutter costs but if say $500 then it would be 'worth' $30.


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## Invertalon (Aug 13, 2013)

Not sure why people worry so much about shutter failure... They can fail at ANY time. The one you got with 30K may last to 300K no problem, if not longer. If you return and get another with 5K, it may fail at 10K... It is a roll of the dice.

My 5D3 has 60K on it right, going strong. It has its routine check-ups with Canon twice a year... I don't worry about it failing at all. It IS rated up to 150K but I know it can fail now, at 150K or at 300K (or more).

Shutter replacement is what, $250-300 and your camera is brand new again... Not that significant, considering the camera cost me $3500. I think of it as routine maintenance, like a car battery!  ;D

I would buy a high shutter count camera without thinking twice, as long as it was taken care of along the way...

If you want figures though... Let's assume on the high side, the camera shutter is $400... (I believe it is $250-300 though). Your 1D IV has a rated shutter life of 300,000...

The 7500 you were told it would have would roughly be $10 of 'usage'... The 27,000 would be $36 of 'usage'.

So if you really want to worry about $26 of shutter usage cost...  

Your "estimate" of a $300 refund is just insane and a rip-off to the seller. Considering its only $26 of usage... Just forget about it and enjoy the camera.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 13, 2013)

The thing to be concerned about is that the seller is a liar. That means that anything he said about the camera is suspect.
Return it for a refund. Chances are that it has other expensive issues that you will discover later. Leave feedback explaining the issue.


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## helpful (Aug 13, 2013)

20,000 shutter clicks is absolutely nothing, completely ignorable. For what I do in sports, it's easy to shoot 5,000 in a day. I've shot as many as 12,000 in a day. The back up to my back up to my back up Canon 7D already has 36,000 photos on it and I consider it to be brand new. In fact, I've only had one camera shutter fail so far, and that was a Nikon D7000 after 136,000 actuations (it was completely replaced for free under warranty).

Pro bodies like this one have never had a shutter failure for me, but I'm probably lucky because they have hundreds of thousands of shots, and they definitely DO fail (more often for people who don't have backups, it seems to me, however!).

But just 20K is completely irrelevant. Don't return it. Just enjoy it.

As far as lying, the other posters do have a valid point there. A lie is a lie, and maybe you can't trust the seller to be clear about other details. But it is possible that those extra exposures were actually put on the camera AFTER the sale began. For example, he used it for a wedding while the auction was going on... 3,000 actuations... for track and field in Moscow.... 25,000 more actuations, etc.

But if there is anything wrong with the camera worth returning it, it has to be something else, not the actuations.


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## Tabor Warren Photography (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm sorry that you even had to post this. The seller should have been honest in the first place.

My 2 cents, if you are going to use it as a pro body, return it sooner than later, however, if it is going to be a "fun" yet expensive toy for a hobby then I would not worry about it in the least. I imagine either way it would be fine.

For my purposes, I would return it simply because my business relies on my equipment working when I need it to. Additionally, I hate lying, it has got to be my greatest pet peeve, (just ask my kids). If nothing else, you have grounds to return it, but if you decide to keep it, have an awesome time.

Essentially, whatever you choose will be the right decision.

Cheers,
-Tabor


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## dgatwood (Aug 13, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The thing to be concerned about is that the seller is a liar. That means that anything he said about the camera is suspect.



Including, quite possibly, the claim that the seller actually owned the camera. Is there a way to do a search for camera serial numbers to make sure it hasn't been reported as stolen?


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## Atonegro (Aug 13, 2013)

dgatwood said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > The thing to be concerned about is that the seller is a liar. That means that anything he said about the camera is suspect.
> ...



That came into my mind as wel...

I never do business with people who are lying to me, not even the small lies.
When they lie about the small things, they lie about the big things.


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## M.ST (Aug 13, 2013)

20000 shutter releases more are not much for a pro body. Even my 350D prototype (with 20D shutter system in it) has now over 1,6 million shutter releases.

But if the seller say that the camera has only 7.000 shutter releases then return the camera. Don´t make business with liars.

If the seller is a professional photographer I even don´t believe only 26996 shutter releases.

In the last years I saw a lot of 1Ds Mark III bodys sold by alleged pro photographers with only 3500 or 15000 shutter releases, but the bodys look much worser than my 350D now. 

The truth is, that some people are able to change the shutter amount and sell bodys with a few hundred shutter releases or more as nearly brand new for a lot of money.

The last hint comes from the Canon headquarter in Japan. But if you ask Canon official as a normal customer or magazine they don´t confirm this fact.


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## DigiAngel (Aug 13, 2013)

i dont think it makes any difference (technically and from a price point of view) if a pro body has 7500 or 25.000 shutter cycles. Its practically brand new either way. 

But your seller gave false information, thats another story. Maybe he just did a mistake. Or, worst case, the cam was stolen. i would ask for a clarification, copy of purchase bill or anything.


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## alexturton (Aug 13, 2013)

I had a 7d for 3 years which I think had over 300k of shutter clicks before I sold it (for a 5d3). I had no problems @ 300k


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## sama (Aug 13, 2013)

dgatwood said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > The thing to be concerned about is that the seller is a liar. That means that anything he said about the camera is suspect.
> ...



Yes. http://www.stolencamerafinder.com/


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## ams2d (Aug 13, 2013)

Based on the other posts seems the extra shutter clicks isn't a big deal. But I agree that you should either report the seller to ebay or give the seller a negative review for not being honest about the details of the camera. Would make me concerned if there was anything else that wasn't disclosed. For example I would ask to see any paper work from canon that the sensor was cleaned.

As far as knowing if the body was stolen or not there are sites like https://www.lenstag.com/stolen/ that allows owners to register their gear and if stolen will be posted on their site. But the trick is getting people to check these sites before buying.


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## jdramirez (Aug 13, 2013)

I don't think accurate shutter count would have devalued the camera, but it would annoy me. if it is in otherwise pristine condition, I'd ask for a 6% refund. I hate eBay, but all the power is given to the customer.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 13, 2013)

My 2cents:

1. How did the seller cames up with 7500ish clicks? Was he been honest or playing around? Maybe he is 2nd or 3rd owner and only used 7500ish clicks, not counting prev. owner(s)

2. 26,000ish clicks are not that much for the pro body.

With that much money, why not get a NEW 5D III from authourized dealer


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## jdramirez (Aug 13, 2013)

alexturton said:


> I had a 7d for 3 years which I think had over 300k of shutter clicks before I sold it (for a 5d3). I had no problems @ 300k



out of curiosity, how much did you sell it for?


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## dstppy (Aug 13, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The thing to be concerned about is that the seller is a liar. That means that anything he said about the camera is suspect.
> Return it for a refund. Chances are that it has other expensive issues that you will discover later. Leave feedback explaining the issue.



THIS. I would send it to a dispute rather than return right away since you're going to eat shipping. If he cares about his reputation, you'll get out of it OK, if he doesn't, he needs to be dinged for the deceit.

IF you get stuck with this, send it in for service/evaluation right away so you can figure out what it'll cost you since failure later on will be more stress and money down the road.


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## dude (Aug 13, 2013)

How much does it cost to get a shutter replacement on a pro body? Is it even worth the price to pay Canon for a swap?


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## WPJ (Aug 13, 2013)

So wrong shutter count and it was not cleaned when he said it was.

I would call canon ask the total cost inc shipping both ways to get it cleaned.

request that by showing evidence that it was my cleaned. Once he agrees and pays still ding him for neutral or negative feed back if he gives you any hassle and you need to open a case.

if he is an honest seller he will refund you with out opening a case if he does positive feed back if you have to open a case beg.
remember you have 40-45 days to open so don't rush get all your facts lined up and approach it respectfully and I hope it all works put.


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## Ewinter (Aug 13, 2013)

I see it went for service. I don't suppose anyone's thought that it might only have 7,500 shots since a shutter replacement, and maybe asking the seller if he had an explanation before mentioning refunds might be the most civil way to handle this?


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## shashinkaman (Aug 13, 2013)

@TexPhoto. It could have been far worse, there could have been a SCRATCH on it!!!!


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## dryanparker (Aug 13, 2013)

In checking out the sold listing on eBay, the seller seems to check out with a 100% positive rating. However, there are some interesting red flags...including his poor-form additional shipping request.

#1) Why would he elect not to accept a return? The good news is he doesn't have to for you to be protected. Since the item did not arrive as described, eBay Buyer Protection should cover you.

#2) You might be able to reach out to CPS and inquire based on the serial of the camera. That could at least help you check out his claim of being the original purchaser and the associated refurb/service reports. If he's a high-level CPS member, they should have some info on him.


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## awinphoto (Aug 13, 2013)

Shoot your freaking out over nothing... 7000 clicks vs 20000, it's still a baby. Heck i've had my 5d3 for a year and a bit or so and i wouldn't be at all surprised if it has more than 20,000, although it doesn't bother me as i'll be driving this camera into the ground... Assuming the 1d4 shutter will last 400k shutter clicks on average, 25000 is like 6% of it's lifespan? You already go the camera for almost 50% original full price retail, not the 6% depreciation, so dont sweat it. Unless there is additional damages or issues, stop fretting and go take some picture.


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## Jay Khaos (Aug 13, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> With that much money, why not get a NEW 5D III from authourized dealer



I thought I was the only one thinking this... +1

Even if 20K clicks is nothing... for me, the deceptive listing justifies asking for a refund. Something to the effect of "Given your shutter count (the most important factor in considering a used camera) is higher by over double what your listing claims, I propose that....etc" I'd probably make a subtle hint that you plan on reporting/leaving negative feedback if they don't agree to credit you a reasonable difference. 

The fact is, if you DON'T know the actual shutter count, dont make one up. Even if it's an innocent mistake—it's still the seller's mistake and he has to be left accountable for destroying his own credibility and the piece of mind of the buyer. And now the buyer is responsible for shipping a 10lb package and being out thousands of dollars in the bank for something they didnt even want in the first place. I say you deserve a credit (do it by issuing the seller an invoice through PayPal and be clear about what it's for). If you decide to return it, I say the seller should be responsible for taking it back without hassle and comping you the return shipping. I've done that on eBay as a seller when I made a mistake in the listing...


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## mrsfotografie (Aug 13, 2013)

20,000 clicks proves it works reliably. Enjoy!


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## awinphoto (Aug 13, 2013)

Jay Khaos said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > With that much money, why not get a NEW 5D III from authourized dealer
> ...



I've sold 3 used cameras on ebay and i dont know about this listing, but on all mine, i list sold as is... I have a rough guess on the shutter count, and I give the disclosure of what I presume the shutter count to be and say it has been professionally used. They take responsibility in accepting the camera. Plus, it's not like a car where the car blatantly displays the odometer for everyone and their brother can see, it is rather tricky to find. So if the seller doesn't take it back, you could have ebay act as a mediation, but if you received the camera in good condition and in the physical condition claimed to be (minus shutter count), then i doubt ebay would force a refund. Just take the camera and enjoy it.


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## vitalboy (Aug 13, 2013)

Give the seller a VERY negative feedback and wait him to come back to revise the feedback, then you ask him a partial refund for the trouble. IT WORKS LIKE A CHARM


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## tiger82 (Aug 13, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The thing to be concerned about is that the seller is a liar. That means that anything he said about the camera is suspect.
> Return it for a refund. Chances are that it has other expensive issues that you will discover later. Leave feedback explaining the issue.



+1


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## CarlTN (Aug 13, 2013)

TexPhoto said:


> I just bought a 1D Mark IV on eBay, and got a pretty good deal. I paid $2925 and $30 for shipping. Looks flawless, and only has 7500 shutter clicks (according to the listing) Problem is the camera has 26,996. (according to EOScount.com) Other than that the camera is spot on. Looks flawless, has the accessories (2 batteries, A/C adapter, big 2 batt charger)
> 
> There was another hick-up in that the buyer emailed me asking for $35 more for shipping and seemed to think it was my fault that shipping was higher than his prediction. I explained that I did not pick the shipping (set before the auction), or send the invoice with $30 shipping after the auction. A buyer can't even change the shipping, it's set by the seller. I was considering paying all or part of it when it arrived, but felt a little strong armed by the first emails.
> 
> ...



I can sympathize with you a bit, because it sounds like the seller could be dishonest. So the first question is, should his dishonesty be rewarded? The bit about asking you for more shipping after the fact, just seems low-class...what is his feedback rating on ebay? What shipping service was it? If I shipped something camera-sized UPS and insured it for $3000, it doesn't seem like it should cost in the $70 range unless the shipping was expedited, or unless it came from Asia or something. Also, recently I was told by USPS that they cannot legally ship anything with a lithium battery outside the continental USA...

As for the shutter cycles, (as others have indicated) 25,000 is lower than average for a pro sports body, especially since the most recent time it could have been bought new, was over a year ago. (I assume you checked the serial number before buying it?). My xxD body had about that many cycles when I sold it, but it still looked and performed like brand new (most of those cycles were not at its max 6 fps). And it was only rated for 100k cycles. Of course I baby my gear. 

*The main question is*...Is this a fair asking price for a typical 1D4 in similar condition? I had a look at Amazon marketplace, and it looks like the average asking price for used units in "good" but not "like new" condition is $3300 to $3400. So unless this one is scratched up or otherwise worn, the price is probably fair...but that does not make up for the seller's apparent dishonesty.

In my opinion you would have been better off just buying a new 5D3 (and its battery grip if you need the capacity/form factor). I rented the 1D4 last fall, and loved it. But renting it, got the desire to own one out of my system. The only thing the 1D4 can really do better than a 5D3, is fire 4 additional frames per second. It can't AF quite as well, it has worse image noise, and it can't go as wide with wide angle lenses. As for the "crop factor", it is 25 MP "effective full frame resolution" vs. 22. When you factor in the better noise performance, the 5D3 will begin to have a resolution advantage at higher ISO. 

That said, for my needs, the 6D fit the bill even better, and it gave me enough funds left over to buy another lens. The only pro body I now aspire to own, is the 1DX replacement...time will tell.

TexPhoto, I hope you make the right decision, and that it works out for you.


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## tiger82 (Aug 13, 2013)

The seller probably confused the battery shot count for the shutter count.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 14, 2013)

The guy clearly listed it was a refurb, does anybody know when a shutter count starts for a refurb unit? I don't but I know for a fact Canon can reset them. He also says it has 11 months Canon warranty on it, which he will honour and that Canon verified the 7,400 count. There should be paperwork supporting that, I'd trust Canon letterhead paperwork over some third party software hack that has been proven to be inaccurate in the past.

As for his feedback, he has a 190 with 132 from sales and a 100% record. Not as good as TexPhoto though none of them were for Lego, but plenty good enough to be considered honest, especially looking at the consistent type of items he has sold, 300 f4, lots of high end P&S's (which seems to be a hobby all in itself nowadays) and a laptop or two.

Without at least looking at both sides to a story I'd hold off on the crucifixion. If I were the seller and I had Canon paperwork I'd take the camera back, cancel the auction and blacklist TexPhoto.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 14, 2013)

In that case, bearing in mind he has the wrong box, I wouldn't be very happy. For me it would be no Canon paperwork no sale, regardless of shutter count, excuses or emails.

I have bought several 1 series cameras via eBay, one was $4,250, but I would not deal with such waffle and excuses, if they can't back up their claims then send it back for the principal of the thing as much as anything. I am sure there is not much wrong with the camera, just the seller.


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## CarlTN (Aug 14, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> In that case, bearing in mind he has the wrong box, I wouldn't be very happy. For me it would be no Canon paperwork no sale, regardless of shutter count, excuses or emails.
> 
> I have bought several 1 series cameras via eBay, one was $4,250, but I would not deal with such waffle and excuses, if they can't back up their claims then send it back for the principal of the thing as much as anything. I am sure there is not much wrong with the camera, just the seller.



Kind of reinforces my point...


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## Jim O (Aug 14, 2013)

I've been a member of eBay since 1998 and did a lot of selling and buying there back in the "wild west" days when scam sellers could leave negatives for buyers. I've seen and lived through the changes as the pendulum has swing way over to the buyers' side and has only now started to *very* slowly swing back a small amount. I have a small eBay business now (10-15 sales/week most of the time, 50-100/week September-early December).

This sale has several red flags:

Red flag number one is when he asked for more money for shipping.

Red flag number two is the discrepancy in the shutter count. As a seller, if I were notified of that I would fall all over myself in horror and immediately offer to make things right in any number of ways including taking it back or offering some cash consideration. The seller didn't do that. In fact he seems to be changing his story.

Red flag number three is a dirty camera that was allegedly recently cleaned.

Red flag number four is the lack of any documentation from Canon, even an email.

But the biggest red flag of them all is a sale with "No Returns". An honorable seller always offers to take something back, particularly if it is not as described. I understand no returns for "buyer's remorse" but if there is a material discrepancy between the description and the actual item, that's not buyer's remorse. 

You are potentially protected by eBay's buyer protection since the shutter count is off and the seller can't provide proof. It's a judgment call but eBay tends to err on the side of the buyer.

In order for eBay to make money they need buyers. They make money every time a buyer makes a purchase. They want happy buyers who trust in their marketplace. They want buyers with loads of cash. They really couldn't care less if someone can't sell his camera because the competition is such that someone else with a similar camera will come along and the buyer with the cash will buy.

In fact, things tend to sell for what they are worth, especially on auctions. There are only occasional "bargains" on eBay.

This is what I would do:

File an eBay buyer protection case for an "item not as described". Have all your documentation ready including screenshots, emails, etc. Now the ball is in his court. Perhaps he will offer to make things right. If he doesn't. and you proceed to have eBay settle the dispute one of two things will happen. Either you win and get your money back plus the cost of return shipping, or you lose. If you lose, you are exactly where you are today. If you win, buy from a more accommodating seller with a reasonable return policy.


What I would *NOT* do:

Do not, under any circumstances, threaten to leave negative or neutral feedback in any way. It could hurt your case, and also it would be grounds to have that feedback removed, thus preventing other buyers from knowing about this transaction.

A little more about feedback. I have very rarely left so much as a neutral. Even in a bad transaction, if it ends well, I might say nothing, or find something nice to say in the context of a positive. People can see the feedback you leave and people can cancel your bids and blacklist you if you are a frequent complainer. I've left one neutral and zero negatives in the last five years or so. The neutral was well deserved. The seller changed shipping methods (from UPS Ground as stated in the listing, to UPS Mail Innovations, a slower, cheaper service), he lied about the actual shipping date to keep his Top Rated Seller standing and discount (they get 20% off final value fees but must ship by next business day), he was evasive when I asked about the fact that the tracking number was not yet in the system, and he generally was a creep.


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## awinphoto (Aug 14, 2013)

TexPhoto said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > The guy clearly listed it was a refurb, does anybody know when a shutter count starts for a refurb unit? I don't but I know for a fact Canon can reset them. He also says it has 11 months Canon warranty on it, which he will honour and that Canon verified the 7,400 count. There should be paperwork supporting that, I'd trust Canon letterhead paperwork over some third party software hack that has been proven to be inaccurate in the past.
> ...



hmmm... given what you mentioned in your correspondence, I guess I would be nervous also... Did he initially in the listing mention that it was refurbished? I know when i sold my 5d mark 2, i had tons of scammers, kinda opposite though, saying they were deployed and if i could ship it to their spouses and such and lots of wire money and stuff... I never went for it, but since he's pulling the same stunt, it would be just as cautious, and whether he could or even would return the money or not is another concern... a lot of these scams, the moment you send money, unless you are protected by your bank, paypal, etc, once the money is gone, it's gone. Granted, usually if it was a scam, you would have likely received a picture of your camera rather than the real thing... Most warranties last a year and refurbished aren't even that long, so warranties, I would expect would be null and void. Good luck


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## whothafunk (Aug 14, 2013)

i think people in this thread overreact quite a lot. oh my god, he lied about shutter count, what if he actually stole it as well? what if he is a murderer? what if, what if... WHAT IF he is an honest guy, but really didnt bother to check the actual shutter count and estimated it and is telling the truth about the papers?

its a PRO body as many have stated before, and if as you said, its in mint condition, i wouldnt worry one bit if it was a good sale.


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## CarlTN (Aug 14, 2013)

Jim O said:


> I've been a member of eBay since 1998 and did a lot of selling and buying there back in the "wild west" days when scam sellers could leave negatives for buyers. I've seen and lived through the changes as the pendulum has swing way over to the buyers' side and has only now started to *very* slowly swing back a small amount. I have a small eBay business now (10-15 sales/week most of the time, 50-100/week September-early December).
> 
> This sale has several red flags:
> 
> ...



Interesting points and seems like good advice.


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## pwp (Aug 15, 2013)

TexPhoto said:


> I just bought a 1D Mark IV on eBay, and got a pretty good deal. I paid $2925 and $30 for shipping. Looks flawless, and only has 7500 shutter clicks (according to the listing) Problem is the camera has 26,996...


The counters reset to zero every 10,000 shots. The seller may have been reading the current shutter count. In any case, 26,996 is absolutely nothing to a 1D4. Barely run in. I'll occasionally run up 25,000 frames in a month on my 1D4 which must be up over 500,000 clicks by now. My old 1D MkIIn must have had over 750,000 clicks when I gave it to an assistant who has added a couple of hundred thousand more....all on the original shutter. 

I have run with 1-Series Canons since the 1D. The only one I've missed was the flawed 1D3. They all have run up into the several hundreds of thousands on original shutters without blinking. There are plenty of 1-Series Canons with well over a million clicks still in robust daily use.

Even if your 1D4 had over 100,000 clicks on it you still got a good buy. Just forget it and enjoy your fantastic new camera. The 1D4 is a gem. 

-PW


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## CarlTN (Aug 15, 2013)

pwp said:


> TexPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > I just bought a 1D Mark IV on eBay, and got a pretty good deal. I paid $2925 and $30 for shipping. Looks flawless, and only has 7500 shutter clicks (according to the listing) Problem is the camera has 26,996...
> ...



Great point, and that is some impressive shutter life!


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