# Canon's Full Frame Future [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 24, 2015)

```
There’s a lot of random information out there about what Canon is going to do with it’s three long-in-the-tooth full frame cameras, the EOS 6D, EOS 5D Mark III and EOS-1D X. One of our sources wants to shed a little bit of light on things, but even admits things are very “muddy” at the moment.</p>
<p><strong>EOS 5D Mark IV</strong>

This camera’s focus will be high ISO performance over resolution. The camera will use a new DIGIC processor and will share a version of a new flagship AF system. We had <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2015/02/possible-canon-eos-5d-mark-iv-spec-talk-cr2/" target="_blank">heard back in February</a> that an 18mp sensor was in testing in a camera body and that’s what could appear here. Are consumers willing to sacrifice 4mp for a few stops of ISO performance boost? I’m pretty sure they would be. I don’t believe the resolution of the APS-C offerings has any bearing on how the full frame sensor development will play out in the prosumer & professional markets.</p>
<p>4K? It depends on the day and who’s talking. I think it’s safe to say that 4K video recording appearing in the EOS 5D Mark IV is 50/50 at the moment. :)</p>
<p><strong>EOS 6D Mark II</strong>

This camera is said to be moving slightly “upmarket”, as it will get a better AF system and a few other consumer features like NFC. We’re also told this camera could have a higher resolution sensor than the EOS 5D Mark IV. The source couldn’t confirm this, but said all signs seemed to point that way. It was suggested that the “consumer” market still cares about resolution and that the EOS 6D Mark II could become the “do everything pretty well” DSLR in the lineup. No resolution number was given, but I can see a 24mp-28mp sensor.</p>
<p><strong>EOS-1D X Mark II</strong>

This camera is on its own and the goal is to improve ISO performance as well as “industry leading” dynamic range, we’re apparently going to see some C300 Mark II technology in this camera. It will have a brand new flagship AF system and an increased framerate. 4K video is still a possibility, as no one expects to see a follow-up to the EOS-1D C.</p>
<p>We’re not very close to an announcement for any of these cameras, so it’s very possible there’s a lot of misdirection and false information being floated around internally at Canon. I expect things to start getting a bit clearer towards the end of the summer and into early fall.</p>
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## dolina (Jun 24, 2015)

The features these three bodies will have will largely depend on what Sony/Nikon will have on offer before August 2016.

Learned my lesson with the 5DsR. I will wait about a week before pursing an order. Could have saved myself $300 if I did. >_<


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## Chaitanya (Jun 24, 2015)

eager to see what Af unit 6D mark II gets. I really liked overall performance of orignal 6D but its AF unit was stupid and only that unit being upgraded would make it a very good camera. Also a tilt-swivel screen would be a good upgrade.


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## meywd (Jun 24, 2015)

What I read from this is that:

1) 5D IV will be the 1D X in a 5D body and maybe get the new AF as a boost.
2) 6D II will be the 5D III in a smaller, feature rich body.
3) 1D X II will be the new King to rule them all (beat the D5(s) and Sony offerings).


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## tayassu (Jun 24, 2015)

I'm actually surprised about that. I always figured that the 5D line was the allround type of bodies, I assumed the next one would have just around 24-28MP and stellar AF, while the 6D line was something like the low-light, travel cameras with ~20 MP that also could compete with something like the A7S. It seems to be reverse here...


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## meywd (Jun 24, 2015)

tayassu said:


> I'm actually surprised about that. I always figured that the 5D line was the allround type of bodies, I assumed the next one would have just around 24-28MP and stellar AF, while the 6D line was something like the low-light, travel cameras with ~20 MP that also could compete with something like the A7S. It seems to be reverse here...



Maybe since the 5D is the king of video under the cinema line - 1D C is from the cinema line - they want it to be the one to beat the a7S, though this is only a rumor...


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## Maximilian (Jun 24, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> We’re not very close to an announcement for any of these cameras, so it’s very possible there’s a lot of misdirection and false information being floated around internally at Canon. I expect things to start getting a bit clearer towards the end of the summer and into early fall.


Early fall is not so far away. Inderesting to see that we're still poking around in the dark. 
But Canon has been quite good throughout the last few years in only leaking what they want to. 

Would be quite interesting to know, what alternative designs of those FF cameras are considered and maybe even tested. Esp. with the 5D4 and 6D2.


Craig, do you have any info about the order of announcements and releases?


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 24, 2015)

tayassu said:


> I'm actually surprised about that. I always figured that the 5D line was the allround type of bodies, I assumed the next one would have just around 24-28MP and stellar AF, while the 6D line was something like the low-light, travel cameras with ~20 MP that also could compete with something like the A7S. It seems to be reverse here...



I think Canon has started the change of course, with more focused products, especially for the prosumer. If you can't get new DSLR customers, get the ones you have to buy more of them.


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## Maximilian (Jun 24, 2015)

tayassu said:


> ... while the 6D line was something like the low-light...


Thinking about the 5D3 beeing the wedding and event workhorse where availabe light capabilities and no flash is quite often required some of these event photogs would have asked themselves, why the 6D got a "better" sensor and more sensible AF. So maybe this was a requirement coming back from the market to turn this around with the 5D4.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 24, 2015)

Maximilian said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We’re not very close to an announcement for any of these cameras, so it’s very possible there’s a lot of misdirection and false information being floated around internally at Canon. I expect things to start getting a bit clearer towards the end of the summer and into early fall.
> ...



I expect the 6D2 to be the last of the 3. No idea on the order of the 1DX2 and 5D4.


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## Maximilian (Jun 24, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > Craig, do you have any info about the order of announcements and releases?
> ...


Thanks. 
If I were Canon I would go the price order, highest features and price first, esp. if I reuse top line features in the minor lines.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 24, 2015)

dilbert said:


> The phrase 'new flagship AF system' is mentioned twice.
> 
> Does it mean that the 5DIV will get new AF when it is announced and then the 1DXII will get its own new AF when it is announced? Or will they both share the same?



I suspect it will be like the current 1dx and 5d3.


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## TheJock (Jun 24, 2015)

Is it probable that the 5DIV will have an 18mp sensor? 
Even considering better DR and low light IQ, isn't that a step backwards compared to the competitors??.....or do I sound like one of the Sonikon fanboys ;D


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## Maximilian (Jun 24, 2015)

TheJock said:


> Is it probable that the 5DIV will have an 18mp sensor?
> Even considering better DR and low light IQ, isn't that a step backwards compared to the competitors??.....or do I sound like one of the Sonikon fanboys ;D


compared to an a7s with 12.1 MP it would be an improvement. 
But as it will be no EXMOR it is impossible to compare those two


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## GuyF (Jun 24, 2015)

"1DX mk2....the goal is to improve ISO performance as well as “industry leading” dynamic range."

Pfff, I'll still only go by what DxO Mark measures.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 24, 2015)

The 5D MkIV having less than 24MP would be a massive mistake, a backwards step like that in a major spec is a marketing nightmare and will confuse the good name the 5D has. 

The 1DX MkII having less than 21MP would be a massive mistake, people demand ever more, even news and sports shooters want to crop hard sometimes (often).

The 1DX MkIV not having 4K (though I don't care) would be a massive mistake, by the time it is a mature product in 2020 it will be a joke if it doesn't have 4k.

Yes there is good reasoning for specialisation, but most people still shoot generally and the 5D has always sold because you could do a bit if everything with it. I see a three 5 lineup making much more sense than an 18MP backwards (in eveybodies mind) step, a 5DC that is video orientated and low light specialist, a 5D MkIV that kills the general purpose and wedding scene but never goes backwards on a spec, and a 5DS'10' a single high MP camera that doesn't have an AA filter.


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## LSXPhotog (Jun 24, 2015)

Based on speculation and rumors, Canon should really reconsider its approach to the camera market. There needs to be a camera to compete with Nikon and Sony at every price point and compete at a similar level. The d610, d750, d810, d4S. It doesn't need to reinvent the wheel here and go nuts - these are ultra specific and stands to cannibalize its following.

If Canon starts to...continues to go crazy with its strategy here, it will further confuse consumers and continue to piss off professionals who want their next camera to become more competitive not more limited in use.

They're in a very delicate dance when the competition allows us to switch and keep our glass. Camera bodies are more important than ever at establishing a following. Canon has the biggest, but that can only last so long.


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## davidmurray (Jun 24, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> tayassu said:
> 
> 
> > I'm actually surprised about that. I always figured that the 5D line was the allround type of bodies, I assumed the next one would have just around 24-28MP and stellar AF, while the 6D line was something like the low-light, travel cameras with ~20 MP that also could compete with something like the A7S. It seems to be reverse here...
> ...



Personally I would consider it a step backwards if Canon reduced the resolution of the 5D4.

I'm hoping for incremental improvements in all aspects of the 5D4 over the 5D3.

The areas that I'd like to see the biggest improvement is in low light image quality and improvements in low light auto focus.

Of course all the other areas - resolution, speed, DR, low ISO quality would be nice, but they already largely do what I need. It's low light performance and low light/small aperture auto focus that would get me replacing my 5D with another 5D.

I certainly wouldn't want to see any feature taking a step backwards.


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## LDS (Jun 24, 2015)

IMHO not all 5D users will be happy with a 18Mp sensor, especially if the 6D reaches 24-28 Mp. Not everybody needs high ISO, but somebody needs some cropping space or a little more pixels - and the 5D III is today a good all-round camera for many different needs. 
Even if Canon makes the 6D pricier, it risks to move a lot of customers to the cheaper camera. Unless Canon wants a clear big difference from the 5D and 5Ds, even larger than today.
Could specializing too much eventually backfire? Selling more cameras to the same customer is not that easy, especially at those prices. Unless you're a commercial photographer specialized in one field only, you may want a more versatile camera, especially when travelling. It can also create a lot of confusion in customers, especially new ones.


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## verysimplejason (Jun 24, 2015)

Chaitanya said:


> eager to see what Af unit 6D mark II gets. I really liked overall performance of orignal 6D but its AF unit was stupid and only that unit being upgraded would make it a very good camera. Also a tilt-swivel screen would be a good upgrade.



Yup. +1. The tilt-swivel screen is very much handy for especially for events and macro.


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## RLPhoto (Jun 24, 2015)

It's going to be very tough for Canon to get my money this cycle for a camera body. The a7rii is a mighty tempting addition to my mk3.


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## K (Jun 24, 2015)

The 18MP thing could be a huge misdirection. Being very specific, great way to isolate a leak in your organization.

But it is plausible.

Canon IS a practical kind of company in what it offers. It wants to offer what is best for REAL photography, not necessarily moronic tests on DXO, DP, or to please the tech junkies who want specs. This is why Canon likes the AA filter. It improves IQ. To the layman or amateur, current day use of an AA filter in a DSLR seems like an archaic practice.

The same is true of megapixels. The 1DX absolutely and undeniably proves that its IQ is superior to the higher MP 5D3 as the ISO goes up. Megapixels certainly isn't everything. Less noise more than makes up for less resolution. High resolution is of no help to anyone and cannot be realized or used when it is utterly destroyed by noise. This is a fact. There is no debate. The thousands of images made in comparison is the evidence to all who are not blind.

Also, real pros doing real work know that 18MP is perfectly fine. While the 5D3 is the wedding photography king, a lot of event shooters use the 1DX also for its low light capability. They aren't bothered in the slightest about the MP count because they know the images these cameras produce is more than enough for any wedding album or print. 

Really, if you need more MP for a larger print - they now offer the 5DS for that. And once you are in the realm of creating large prints with such high detail - you're either doing studio or landscape work, and high ISO isn't in the game any more. This was a good segregation of specialties by Canon.

All that said, for the NEEDS of real pros (not the wants of internet reviewers), 18MP would not be viewed at all as a negative selling point, not if the ISO was improved at least 1 stop. 

Thus, this is a plausible rumor because it appears that Canon is basically giving the 1DX sensor to the 5D4. Not a bad move at all. Nothing wrong with it. Now, if it is an improved 1DX sensor at 18MP (using newer process), even better. But we'll see.

Now, from a marketing point of view - this would be disastrous. All the tech junkies, nerds and people who argue and debate incessantly about the most minute aspects of technical specs and THEORETICAL IQ will be in uproar over this. To them, going down in MP signifies a step backwards. Even though direct evidence to the contrary is in their face as to why this is not. 

But this all depends on who Canon is marketing the camera to. If the 5D line is going back to its roots as being for pros - no problem. If there is still a large enough market of prosumers and techies with lots of disposable cash, it could be a problem. They'll miss out sales to these people.


There's still rumor of a two-flavor 5D4, one with the 18MP and the other with 28MP to satisfy everyone. Personally, I don't see splitting that model out happening like it did with the 5DS. 

If the 6D2 is decent enough, an 18MP 5D4 is possible. 


The 6D2 though will be sufficiently crippled to protect any 5D4. Namely, weaker AF system and single-card slot. In order to have those extra 10 megapixels, you'll give up probably one full stop of ISO, a high end AF system and the data safety of a 2nd card slot. (and likely 4K video). All of which, in my opinion, is a major deal breaker for anyone thinking about saving money by doing professional work with the 6D2. Precisely what Canon wants. 


So a 6D2 has got to be the prosumer all purpose camera to appease the masses, while the 5D4 becomes a serious tool for the event photographer.


Another thing to note is, 18MP would be a bit of a gamble for Canon. By going "backwards" in MP, and taking a major hit in marketing - Canon would really, truly need to come through on ISO performance. It would need to be a TRUE 1 stop improvement across the board at minimum. But I would say it would have to be more. 1.5 stops would be sufficient to balance out the lower MP count issue.

If it is anything short of 1 stop, this will be a flop. It will need to be easily noticeable in IQ side by side comparisons with the 5D3. None of this drawn out side by side comparing to try and find the differences. On a basic zoom in of the image, it will need to be immediately apparent. A short glance to say "wow, big difference" ...not tedious pixel peeping of very similarly noisy images.

1.5 stops isn't unreasonable. the 1DX is basically a stop better than the 5D3, so right there that sensor has it. Add in newer sensor technology and it shouldn't be out of reach I would think.


Overall though, I'm not too certain about this rumor. If I had to bet, I would say the 5D4 is going UP in megapixels. There's just something wrong about going down, and Canon knows it. Marketing will prevail. After all, Canon did not have to put out 50MP in the 5DS, they could have done 36 - 46 MP instead. 50 was a marketing driven goal. 

I expect the 5D4 to be anywhere from 24 - 28MP, and improve ISO by 3/4 stop, but no more than 1. It will get close to the 1DX in ISO, but with more MP. I expect a 20 or 22MP sensor with one more stop of ISO on the 1DX2. Which will be amazing. 

If there's going to be any real big leaps (like full stop improvements), it's going to be on the flagship. Not the 5D line.


Figure it this way. With 18MP in a 5D4, Canon pleases pros and those doing real practical photography. But kills themselves in the media and marketing world. On the other hand, if they go 24-28MP, now they don't have to come up nearly as big in ISO because they don't have to offset a "downgrade" in MP. They'll still improve ISO a bit, just not as much. This overall is still an improvement. They will still please the pros and event shooters, all without killing themselves in media and marketing.

Which is most likely? The latter. The latter is because it is positive in all areas without causing damage. The former is problematic and thus unrealistic.

18MP in a 5D4 is ONLY happening as a two-model offering, if that even happens.


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## massive (Jun 24, 2015)

I just want the highest IQ for still/landscape in regular (or controlled) lighting conditions.

dont care about video
dont care about huge amounts of autofocus points
dont care about 1 million ISO
dont even care about FPS

pure image quality is what I want from a full frame body. i.e. a 5d IV or 5dx. an un-compromised body would be awesome

If its moving, I'll grab a 1dx or a 7d
if it doesnt = 5d?

perhaps the 5ds/5dsR is the current match but I still feel they are somewhat compromised, even though the video has thankfully been scaled back on the sR


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## Steve Balcombe (Jun 24, 2015)

verysimplejason said:


> Chaitanya said:
> 
> 
> > eager to see what Af unit 6D mark II gets. I really liked overall performance of orignal 6D but its AF unit was stupid and only that unit being upgraded would make it a very good camera. Also a tilt-swivel screen would be a good upgrade.
> ...



Plus another 1 here. I want to switch to full frame for macro but I need an articulated screen - tilt-only would be ideal. The D750 has it. Now the A7RII has it. Come on Canon, don't make me buy a Sony...


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## Orangutan (Jun 24, 2015)

massive said:


> an un-compromised body would be awesome


This is not possible without making it too expensive for its market segment. Maybe you should consider MFD?



> If its moving, I'll grab a 1dx or a 7d
> if it doesnt = 5d


Not everyone has this luxury, the 5D-series seems to be the FF all-'rounder, not a specialist camera (except maybe event/wedding photographers).


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## massive (Jun 24, 2015)

Orangutan said:


> > If its moving, I'll grab a 1dx or a 7d
> > if it doesnt = 5d
> 
> 
> Not everyone has this luxury,



I appreciate not everyone has that luxury - but its not my business to suggest a camera which will work for everyone. I'm merely stating what I would buy in a heartbeat for my needs. It's ok to be selfish sometimes you know


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## jeffa4444 (Jun 24, 2015)

LSXPhotog said:


> Based on speculation and rumors, Canon should really reconsider its approach to the camera market. There needs to be a camera to compete with Nikon and Sony at every price point and compete at a similar level. The d610, d750, d810, d4S. It doesn't need to reinvent the wheel here and go nuts - these are ultra specific and stands to cannibalize its following.
> 
> If Canon starts to...continues to go crazy with its strategy here, it will further confuse consumers and continue to piss off professionals who want their next camera to become more competitive not more limited in use.
> 
> They're in a very delicate dance when the competition allows us to switch and keep our glass. Camera bodies are more important than ever at establishing a following. Canon has the biggest, but that can only last so long.


I think the logic shown here i.e. competitive full frame cameras at the Nikon D610, D750, D810 & D4S price & feature points is exactly where Canon needs to be. If the 6D moves up to compete with the D750 then they will not have an entry level full frame camera. Moving the 5D MKIII to compete with the Sony A7S seems like a strange move its logical competitor is the A7R / Nikon D810. 
As stated by others the 6D needs better AF and less banding everything else about the camera works fine and fixing both of those doesnt make it 25% more expensive dont penalise loyal customers to make up for the iPhone brigade. The 5D MKIV should have better resoltion and better DR if Sony can do it why not Canon, and upgrades to the AF only if their is something majorly wrong with the present system which their is not. Like the 6D its weakness is banding in low light or dominate grey / white areas which also in its case highlight noise.


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## wtlloyd (Jun 24, 2015)

I'd buy a lightly used/refurb/marked down new 1DX for the same $$$ or less, before getting a new 18 megapixel 5D4.


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## YuengLinger (Jun 24, 2015)

If true about 5DIV, the used and refurbished market for the 5DIII will be smokin' for years!!!


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## geonix (Jun 24, 2015)

If these rumors on the 5D IV are true, I will get a Sony A7RII
I am NOT willing to sacrifce 4 MP for better ISO performance, as I mostly shoot in Situations where the ISO performance of the 5D III is already sufficent. What I want is a better resolution to get better Details when cropping into pictures. And better DR would also be good.

So for me the 5D IV should defentily move into the direction of the A7RII. Make it faster with around 7-8 fps, 28-36 MP, new (really improved) sensor, weather sealing, 4k (that canon is still 50:50 on that is so ridiculous - YES! it must have 4k at least with 30p) and GPS.


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## K (Jun 24, 2015)

wtlloyd said:


> I'd buy a lightly used/refurb/marked down new 1DX for the same $$$ or less, before getting a new 18 megapixel 5D4.



+1

1DX is already where the 5D4 is in the sensor rumor. Except you get a superior body, more FPS and other features. A gray market 1DX for $3999 is tempting. Especially since Canon isn't likely to release a 5D4 for less than the 5DS.


This alone is probably another reason why 18MP isn't happening in the 5D4.


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## jeanluc (Jun 24, 2015)

I for one hope the 5d4 does not go down in resolution. I also don't think it needs to go up a whole lot either.

I shoot mainly landscapes, but other things too. I don't have a 5DS (yet), but with my 5d3 I can print 24 x 36 with pretty darn good results. I am not sure the huge file size of the 5DS coupled with what are nice, but relatively small improvements in build quality and features over the 5d3 is a good trade.

I also would like to see the 5D4 at about 24-28MP, with some improvement in DR, high ISO, build quality etc. The DR issue is discussed ad nauseum but the reality is that at some point Canon will have to address this to at least some degree. It would be nice to have simply to make PP a little faster, even if it really only affects a small percentage of shots for most people.

The 6D2 may end up having a lot of these specs, but I think a lot of us buy 5d series bodies because we want the build quality, weather sealing, features etc. found on the 5 series. It would be a shame to have to give up resolution to keep all the features we love on our 5D's.

The 1DX2 sounds like it will be awesome, but the price tag pretty much takes it out of the running for a lot of people.

I have pretty much always shot Canon, and it would take a lot for me to switch. A Canon 
"D750" equilvalent I think is what most people would really like. If you think about it, the D750 is really just the Nikon version of the camera I want, ie. an upgraded 5D3.

Except I want a Canon, not a Nikon or Sony, since I have no interest in losing all the advatages of an awesome camera system, ergonomics and a UI I know very well.


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## K-amps (Jun 24, 2015)

RLPhoto said:


> It's going to be very tough for Canon to get my money this cycle for a camera body. The a7rii is a mighty tempting addition to my mk3.



Same here... short of the 1dx ii giving us 16 stops of DR... the 7rII it is for me.... and it will need to fail major in the AF area for it to be de-throned by a Canon 5D announcement. What the A7Rii is , is an update to the 5d3 that Canon wont give it. If it AF's even 50% as fast as the 5d3 does, that's a no brainer for me. (I don't do sports and BIF)

The 5DS/R will be the first model in the line that is not a runaway success in my opinion. Its a very Niche body, and Canon is not thinking straight if they feel people will buy 3 5D bodies (High MP, Cinema & High DR) instead of the one 5D successor that should have encompassed all 3 attributes. The 5D3 was a brilliant all-rounder... which is why it sold so well. 

Even if they knew which direction they were going to go, looks like the A7rII threw them off , and I am glad they are not making decisions in isolation anymore... but considering choices people have now.


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## The Flasher (Jun 24, 2015)

K said:


> ... real pros doing real work know that 18MP is perfectly fine...



Absolutely disagree. "real pros" know that as soon as you crop your image that 18mp figure drops substantially. High megapixel count and high iso performance is best of both worlds. So far on paper, the a7r2 delivers both, where as Canon, as rumors suggest, is widening this divide among multiple bodies. Higher return on investment, feature wise so far, goes to Sony. Well see what canon announces, hopefully sooner than later.


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## K (Jun 24, 2015)

The Flasher said:


> K said:
> 
> 
> > ... real pros doing real work know that 18MP is perfectly fine...
> ...




You're right. My statement of "perfectly fine" for 18MP is contingent on* filling the frame*. The current Canon lineup of 18, 20 and 22MP FF cameras (5DS not included), is fine until a heavy crop is needed. Then it gets ugly.

Most wedding and event pros aren't doing a lot of heavy cropping. At least not the ones I know. Filling the frame is key. Not having to fill the frame is a luxury of sorts. You can be a little quicker and sloppier. However, you pay for it in post processing. Then again, these days everything is so heavily processed - that "penalty" has become a non-factor. It's now just part of the photographic process. And this is coming from me, a person who likes to shoot JPG and get it right in camera whenever I can get away with it to avoid time wasted post-processing.

Becoming crop-dependent is a bad thing though. Although it wins you some flexibility in getting away with glass lineup, it's not a good thing over all.

Good technique of filling the frame with correct composition and using the right glass is the better way to go. But it is nice to have the flexibility to crop for sure.


This is why top pros running the 1DX and 5D3 create images that have incredibly high detail and look great even in big prints. Because 18 - 22MP is a lot of data and detail. It's just can YOU get that detail out of an image.


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## RLPhoto (Jun 24, 2015)

K-amps said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > It's going to be very tough for Canon to get my money this cycle for a camera body. The a7rii is a mighty tempting addition to my mk3.
> ...


And on top that the 5D3 is really a solid camera. You can build a business on it and they're only getting cheaper. Canon would have to make an a7rii in dslr form for me to even consider it. I don't expect canon users to flee canon but I don't doubt many users will add a a7 series camera to their bags this cycle. Canon would really have to butcher their cinema line and devour itself to make a camera compelling enough to consider now with the a7rii. Let's hope canon puts everything they got into the 5D4 and make a leap forward instead of a revamp.


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## Kiton (Jun 24, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> ...........
> 
> This camera’s focus will be high ISO performance over resolution.
> version of a new flagship AF system.
> ...




CR, I think you gage the market very well! 

The extra cropping margin of a 22 or 24mp sensor would be the icing on the cake. 
Bring us top tier focusing and a little more _useable_ iso and the camera will sail off the shelf.

I tried the 5Ds, the camera, as amazing as it is, is not for me in the streets. Last night, hand holding, in a tight crowd of 100,000 people with high winds blowing, I fear I would not get a single frame sharp with the 5Ds.


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## shutterlag (Jun 24, 2015)

Unless Canon magically releases a mirrorless FF with electronic first curtain, I'm no longer interested in their products. I'm keeping a couple of my L lenses, but only until the Sony equivalents are available. Canon's complacency has finally killed them.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 24, 2015)

Kiton said:


> I tried the 5Ds, the camera, as amazing as it is, is not for me in the streets. Last night, hand holding, in a tight crowd of 100,000 people with high winds blowing, I fear I would not get a single frame sharp with the 5Ds.



I think you don't understand the relationship between image blur and pixel size. For a same sized picture the image blur in a 5DS image would be identical to a 5D MkIII image. 

It would only appear worse if you looked at one bigger than the other, why is that so hard to understand? Look at the 5D MkIII image bigger than the 5DS image and the 5D MkIII image would look less sharp.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 24, 2015)

shutterlag said:


> Unless Canon magically releases a mirrorless FF with electronic first curtain, I'm no longer interested in their products. I'm keeping a couple of my L lenses, but only until the Sony equivalents are available. Canon's complacency has finally killed them.



What do you see as so important in a mirrorless ff camera with an electronic first curtain that is so different from a current DSLR in Live View with an electronic first curtain?


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## Kiton (Jun 24, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> I think you don't understand the relationship between image blur and pixel size. For a same sized picture the image blur in a 5DS image would be identical to a 5D MkIII image.
> 
> It would only appear worse if you looked at one bigger than the other, why is that so hard to understand? Look at the 5D MkIII image bigger than the 5DS image and the 5D MkIII image would look less sharp.



I checked all frames at 100%
The tack sharp ratio of frames was lower on the S than the 3. 
Add the limited iso of the S, and I don't think the camera is not for me. I will hold until the 5D mk 4 comes and re-evaluate then.
The highest tack sharp ration came my 1d mk 4.
But I don't carry that camera 24/7, it is too heavy and draws too much attention. I carry a 5d 3 with a 40 stm or a sigma 35 1.4 24/7. And I really mean 24/7.


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## gsealy (Jun 24, 2015)

It seems to me that these specs are somewhat underwhelming and serve to confuse the consumer. A 6DII having more MP than the 5DIV? And in my case, I am not about to spend money on any of it having a perfectly fine 5DIII. Anyway I believe you get better bang for the buck spending money on high quality glass, such as a Zeiss, because it makes every camera you own better and well into the future too. 

But, we shall see what actually happens.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 24, 2015)

Kiton said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > I think you don't understand the relationship between image blur and pixel size. For a same sized picture the image blur in a 5DS image would be identical to a 5D MkIII image.
> ...



I stand by my point, indeed you make it very well for me.

Your _'tack sharp'_ results are in order of magnification, the 1D MkIV is enlarged least, the 5D MkIII second and the 5DS is enlarged over twice the size as the 5D MkIII and nearly three times the size of the 1D MkIV! Look at them all the same size, such that the subjects when shot with the same lens are the same size on screen, NOT MAGNIFICATION, and they will have the same 'tack sharp' rate. 

I am not saying the 5DS is a camera you should buy, I am saying giving opinions to others based on failed methodology is silly.

P.S. If you look at downsampled 5DS files at high iso compared to 5D MkIII files the 5DS is actually a better performer. Yet another case of if you actually know what you are doing, and the best way of achieving it the Canon 5DS is performing very well.


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 24, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> Kiton said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



Thanks for jumping on that PBD. I was going to respond but had to tend to the ulcer I developed reading it.


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## GMCPhotographics (Jun 24, 2015)

The rumors for the 5D4 are pretty disappointing. Sure a few extra stops will be nice, but I want to retain the same MP as the current camera and get the new HDR tech that's rumored to be in the 1DX2.

I'm pretty happy with my current 5D3's...if this rumour's true...I'll be missing a generation and looking to a 5D5 instead.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 24, 2015)

GMCPhotographics said:


> I'm pretty happy with my current 5D3's...if this rumour's true...I'll be missing a generation and looking to a 5D5 instead.



I think that is THE issue Canon have. The 5D MkIII is so good for so many people that trying to entice those owners, who must make up the bulk of the potential 5D MkIV market, is going to be very difficult. There is nothing groundbreaking, the 5D MkIII is a crazy capable camera and no single feature is going to have thousands of owners dropping them for an expensive upgrade. 

A stop or so here, a fps there, so what? The 5D MkIII is a supremely capable all round camera. If they just threw 4K into it as it is it would stand the test of time, make it external recording for a couple of years then a firmware upgrade to make it internal and the product is still good in 2019. Add in some general froo froo stuff, like the 1DX AF, the much better shadow noise from the 5DS and who needs to reinvent the wheel?


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## WeekendWarrior (Jun 24, 2015)

So basically nothing has changed with this announcement lol.. If Canon can't get it together by the time the Sony a7R II comes out, I will be switching.. I've been trying to hold off on leaving Canon for a long time now, even after everyone else I know has already switched. 

_"Are consumers willing to sacrifice 4mp for a few stops of ISO performance boost? I’m pretty sure they would be." 
_Uh?? Says who? The a7R II will have more than double the resolution, ISO boost, while shooting 4K without any "sacrifices"


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## meywd (Jun 24, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty happy with my current 5D3's...if this rumour's true...I'll be missing a generation and looking to a 5D5 instead.
> ...



Still many bought the 1D X, of course unless you get paid for what you do the value of the 5D III will be better, however if the 5D IV has a7S performance level with 4K video, AF of the 1D X II, improved noise handling and no banding, higher FPS, while maintaining the 5D III body and robustness, why would a few more MPs stop you from buying? Is that the most important feature? Then get the 5Ds(r)


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## meywd (Jun 24, 2015)

dilbert said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > I think that is THE issue Canon have. The 5D MkIII is so good for so many people that trying to entice those owners, who must make up the bulk of the potential 5D MkIV market, is going to be very difficult. There is nothing groundbreaking, the 5D MkIII is a crazy capable camera and no single feature is going to have thousands of owners dropping them for an expensive upgrade.
> ...



Really man, is that how you study the market for a new product? Reactions by unknowns on a rumor...


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## privatebydesign (Jun 24, 2015)

dilbert said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > I think that is THE issue Canon have. The 5D MkIII is so good for so many people that trying to entice those owners, who must make up the bulk of the potential 5D MkIV market, is going to be very difficult. There is nothing groundbreaking, the 5D MkIII is a crazy capable camera and no single feature is going to have thousands of owners dropping them for an expensive upgrade.
> ...



I agree, but once you go to two generations of incremental increases then the improvements become much greater. Besides, whilst the 5D MkII will always have it's fans, as the even older 5D does, they will be getting old with generally high shutter counts and thoughts of longevity and reliability start to become more important to the owners.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 24, 2015)

dilbert said:


> ....this isn't the first time that Sony's latest camera has been mentioned in this thread and it is doubtful to be the last.



I am sure it won't be if you can have your way, if it does and you derail yet another thread then the thread is of no interest to me.


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## seamonster (Jun 24, 2015)

18mp will NOT be acceptable for a 5DIV unless there was a MASSIVE (4-5 stop) improvement in high ISO and an absurd (9-10) fps shooting AND a MASSIVE (4-5 stop) improvement in DR.

People rely on the 5D line to be "do everything" full frame cameras that have excellent AF, good framerate, nearly class leading high ISO performance, class leading video features and that includes enough resolution to crop. Are they not selling enough 7DII's to try and pull a REDUCTION in megapixels for the main model in the 5D line?


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## Mitch.Conner (Jun 24, 2015)

The front page link to this thread appears to be broken. It says "0 Comments" and the button's link is to http://www.canonrumors.com/#


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 24, 2015)

Mitch.Conner said:


> The front page link to this thread appears to be broken. It says "0 Comments" and the button's link is to http://www.canonrumors.com/#



Works fine on my end, try clearing your cache.


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## Takingshots (Jun 24, 2015)

At this juncture if Sony A7rii is as good as they stated on the write up, I will pass up Canon and go for Sony. I will be waiting for more reviews and test field b4 plunging 3,000 + dough into the new system. I will use meta bone for my Canon lens....


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## ScottyP (Jun 24, 2015)

GMCPhotographics said:


> The rumors for the 5D4 are pretty disappointing. Sure a few extra stops will be nice, but I want to retain the same MP as the current camera and get the new HDR tech that's rumored to be in the 1DX2.
> 
> I'm pretty happy with my current 5D3's...if this rumour's true...I'll be missing a generation and looking to a 5D5 instead.



They have their high MP camera now. Two of them in fact, at an insane 50MP. They have realized they can't beat all the competition on every spec in one single do-it-all body. They are specializing and kneecapping the competition with specialized bodies. Solid idea.

Let the MP fans go buy the high MP camera. If Canon could REALLY add "a few" stops (as CR Guy joked) of high ISO performance to a body specially designed for that purpose there would be a big market, myself enthusiastically included. Even adding "just 2" full stops and AF at -3 or -4 EV would be insaneLy great. I would be happy to take this camera in either 5d4 form, or in a 6d2 provided they will improve the latter's AF system with about 30 or 35 all cross-type points. That light up RED in the dark.

Please please.


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## dak723 (Jun 24, 2015)

Would be very happy if Canon did not increase the MPs in any of their new FF. Give me bigger pixels rather than more. My 6D can give me prints well over 24" if I wanted them. I can crop almost half the frame and still get a perfectly fine 8" x 12" print. 

The APS-C Cameras already have too many pixels for my liking, and as we have seen with the 5Ds models, you already need faster shutter speeds, camera improvements to minimize shake and a tripod in many situations because of the smaller pixels. No thanks to more MPs.

Of course, since a smaller MP number seems like a step backwards (even if the IQ improves, which it definitely should) people will call it a step backwards and be outraged.


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## Kiton (Jun 24, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> I stand by my point, indeed you make it very well for me.
> 
> Your _'tack sharp'_ results are in order of magnification, the 1D MkIV is enlarged least, the 5D MkIII second and the 5DS is enlarged over twice the size as the 5D MkIII and nearly three times the size of the 1D MkIV! Look at them all the same size, such that the subjects when shot with the same lens are the same size on screen, NOT MAGNIFICATION, and they will have the same 'tack sharp' rate.
> 
> ...





You bring up an interesting point about photography in general.

There is an old saying: Ask 10 photographers a question and you will get 12 answers.

I am an old school, life long, newspaper shooter. I am pretty well published in a major market newspaper somewhere, every day of every week, year after year, for decades running now. All I care about is what I see on my screen. Charts, theories and perfect workflows mean nothing at the end of the day. What does my file look like. Not the guy next to me, the file on my card, the image on my screen, nothing else.

Is my workflow flawed? Probably!
Is my work flawed? No!

So I guess we have to agree to disagree. I shot with the s and handed it back. I was not in love with what I saw, for the way I work.

I have learned over the years that there is only ONE photographer out there whose opinion is solid enough that I will take it blindly without testing myself. One! 

No one should be buying, or not buying, anything on someone else’s word. Looking at something they may want to test or try, maybe, but flat out buying or not buying based on an opinion of one fotog you don’t work with and trust blindly is insane.

I am off to shoot a portrait of a pro football player at home with his family, I bet I will break about a dozen “rules of photography” but the picture will be nice I have no doubt! 



On another note, I see a bunch of posts about Canon better do this or that because Sony did XYZ.

People talk about how the Sony can/will do this and that, but when you have 300 2.8, 400 2.8, a bag full of lenses and 6 Canon flashes, you are not jumping to Sony or Nikon because of one new camera body. Sadly, Canon is very well aware of that fact. 
I would bet the amount of brand jumpers is actually very low amongst people who have a substantial amount of gear. One body and 2 or 3 lenses, maybe it is a little higher. I looked at switching when Canon released the price of 200-400, but at the end of the day, I passed on the 200-400 and stayed with Canon.

have a good day guys,


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## martti (Jun 24, 2015)

For somebody non-professional it is difficult to imagine what is going on in Canon's huge R&D department.
Having had the Sony A6000 for six months now I can imagine that the Canon's engineers have scrutinized every part of it and gone 'A-ha!' more than once.

They will have to do something about the Live View and my guess would be phase-detecting photosites on the sensor like they have on the A6000. There should be tracking and face recognition as well. It is unbelievable how much easier it is to get sharp pictures of screaming little kids with the Sony A6000 than with the 5DIII. 

Swiveling screen is part of this, of course. You do not have to kneel down to get to eye level.

Will there finally be apps for 5DIII? People love apps...they love stuff that keeps them busy without actually achieving anything. That's what apps are for...does a typical or potential 5Dx user need apps? 
Who cares, as long as he buys them! The problem with Canon is that they are a bit like Nokia was in cell phones. They think that people (not talking about professionals here but those with time and money to spare, Customers) want business while most of them want to play. Money is in passtime, games, social media and other totally idiotic stuff. I do not think Canon will introduce apps as yet. Sony will stumble with their effort and only Samsung will finally make money with the idea. They will give us apps that simulate Nikon Canon and Sony. Buy a Samsung and get the 'shooting experience' of the old greats! (And we get the cash)

What I would like to have is a configuration screen on my Mac where I could program the M1, M2, M3...the way I want to, press 'enter' and have the functions set on the 5Dx. My head is old and not very good in concentrating on things and I actually need a pencil and a piece of paper to dial in the quickset preferences. 
How difficult could that be to make it happen with a USB cable? Maybe it is possible already? I do not know.

I know I am a disappearing species. Nobody else probably would enjoy having a rotating f-stop ring right on the camera body just proximally to the bayonet? After twenty years with EOS I am still not quite at home with the f-stop being where it is. I will never be. (sigh)

The megapixel war has gone crazy. Very few people actually need all the megapixels they have at their disposal.
The big files take an eternity to upload on the computer where they take a lot of space and processing power. The limitations are on the net and on the printer much in the same way as in Hifi where the amp goes from 15 to 50.000 Hz while the top frequencies can only be enjoyed by your pets and the bats in the attic.
But they are nice to have, like gigapixels and ceramic turbochargers in the four o'clock traffic jam.

Will Canon put phase detection on their screen and improve their 'gamma' or, which is more probable, just go for more pixels because more is good. The sensor goes to eleven! Like Nigel Tufnel's amp in Spinal Tap!
I would like to have a bit more stuff in the gamma curve in the lower left corner. With their current constructs, is it possible?

I would really like to get the 5Dx in camo and in pink. I cannot understand how Canon has totally neglected the needs of minorities in its exterior design. Or why not a chrome version with dark tan leather. I would probably fall for it, seeing it as the reincarnation of the Voigtländer Vito that my father had and I took a picture of President Kekkonen with it because I was so small that they let me in 1959. I was six years old.

Why only Nikon understands the retro power? Canon was there. Nikon beat Leica, Canon beat Nikon.
True, all the Canon bruisers were black but who remembers. Falsify history, make titanium, camo and chrome/leather versions. I could imagine even serious professionals welcoming various colors of 5Dx's so they could differentiate their teams...yellow goes wideangle, blue does closeups at close range, and burgundy shoot long lenses.

There is very little Canon high-class paraphernalia dedicated to the 5Dx.
Classy saddle leather, camo, canvas...how can it be that this sector is so totally neglected. 
Where are the brand builders?

Could I have an HD touch screen that would fit on the flash shoe and serve as the Live View screen?
Like made by Canon? Click-click not klonk klonk? No external cables?
Does it exist? Why the hell not?

Iwould also like to see the Arca dovetail machined in the bottom plate of the 5Dx instead of having to buy these idiotic 3rd party screw-on parts. Now the construction is upside down but no big deal to turn it the right way.

And so forth. I am sure that real professionals (if some of them has read this far) alrady have hundreds of better ideas that I have presented here. Let's hear them!


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## wsmith96 (Jun 24, 2015)

meywd said:


> What I read from this is that:
> 
> 1) 5D IV will be the 1D X in a 5D body and maybe get the new AF as a boost.
> 2) 6D II will be the 5D III in a smaller, feature rich body.
> 3) 1D X II will be the new King to rule them all (beat the D5(s) and Sony offerings).



Correction: 2) 6D II will be the 5D III in a smaller, feature rich body, but with the 7D 19 point autofocus.


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## pedro (Jun 24, 2015)

ScottyP said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
> 
> 
> > The rumors for the 5D4 are pretty disappointing. Sure a few extra stops will be nice, but I want to retain the same MP as the current camera and get the new HDR tech that's rumored to be in the 1DX2.
> ...


Count me in, Scotty...!


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## e17paul (Jun 24, 2015)

wsmith96 said:


> meywd said:
> 
> 
> > What I read from this is that:
> ...



Once all these arrive back at the original launch prices of the models they replace, there will be a gap at the bottomn of the FF range. Existing 6D in a cheaper body? Canon would be mad not to open up up the FF market a little further, and the launch of FF STM lenses seems to be preparing the ground for such a camera.


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## llocq (Jun 24, 2015)

I really don't care about MP...I got that covered with the 5DS/R..

I actually need 2 type of cameras in my bag.

A high MP monster (5DS/R) and an all around type (current 5DMKIII) or the MKIV with whatever MP count.
All I need in that camera is high iso, DR and a descent fps (6-7).If they go with the 18MP is still enough to work with.

Currently own a 6D and a 5DMKIII and I feel like I have the same camera twice...

As for the 6D things that really need to change are 
1:the AF system (check)
2:the back wheel (I really hate that thing)
3:A non fixed screen (don't really need it but I'd love to have one)
4UAL CARD SLOT (the one thing I don't get...it should have been there in the first place)


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## Silvertt7 (Jun 24, 2015)

5DIV sounds like a step backwards as well as forward... NOT what it needs right now. Canon needs to move forward only given what the competition is doing with their bodies.


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## Neutral (Jun 24, 2015)

If Canon wants to make new bodies (e.g. 5DmiV) to be attractive for videographers and not only for photographers I am afraid they need to do something really difficult for them to make something that could be capable of doing the same as shown below: 

https://vimeo.com/131567877
REFUGE // A Moonlit Short Film from Sam Shapson

Enjoy, this is really interesting how modern technologies opening possibilities that were kind of science fiction not long time back ))
This short movie was done in almost full darkness , the only source of light was the moonlight.
Camera was Sony A7s set to 51,200 ISO, lenses used were Canon Cine Primes -- 24, 35, 50, 85 -- at T1.3/1.5 with Metabones Speedbooster. 
System is done using best components from both Sony and Canon worlds ) 

It is interesting to see what would be possible with A7S II when it will come to life.

I think that instead of endless arguing which system is better it is better just to open eyes and mind to be able to receive and absorb useful information from whatever possible)))

I just hope that 1DX m II will be really big step forward compared with 1DX otherwise I will feel very sad.


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## Maiaibing (Jun 24, 2015)

K said:


> Also, real pros doing real work know that 18MP is perfectly fine.



No. Real Pro's know that you need the right tool for the job. And a lot of Pro's doing real work need a lot more than 18 MPIX.


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## PureClassA (Jun 24, 2015)

Rumors. Rumors. And more RUMORS. Someone said (and I think it's perfectly plausible) that the 18MP figure may be a leak test for Canon. I'd be shocked out my mind if they went backwards 20% on resolution. If they want a lower MP/High ISO performer like the a7S, rest assured they aren't going to Megapixel hijack the cash cow centerpiece of the vaunted 5D line to do it. 

I'd predict we see an excellent FF version of the new 24MP APS-C sensor found in the Rebel t6. That seems to make the most sense for a 5D4 given a Digic 7 chip (or 6+, or whatever) with a small step up in FPS (7-8) and a notable jump in being able to cleanly pull up shadows (like the 5DS) with a stop or two better high ISO than the 5D3


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## Maiaibing (Jun 24, 2015)

18 MPIX 5DIV????? LOL!!!!

This rumor makes me happy that I have the new SONY on pre-order. ;D

However, Canon's express acknowledgment that they underestimated the market demand for more MPIX also makes me think that this is one of the worst rumors this site has ever tried to promote...

My money is still on 32 MPIX+. I'll take bets against a 18 MPIX 5DIV any day.


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## mrsfotografie (Jun 24, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> There’s a lot of random information out there about what Canon is going to do with it’s three *five* long-in-the-tooth full frame cameras, the EOS 6D, EOS 5D Mark III, *EOS 5Ds, EOS 5Ds R* and EOS-1D X. One of our sources wants to shed a little bit of light on things, but even admits things are very “muddy” at the moment.</p>
> <p><strong>EOS 5D Mark IV</strong>



I think we can include the 5Ds and 5Ds R in this list. New sensor, old body. :


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## zim (Jun 24, 2015)

CR2 - 18mp 5DIV naww, someone's havin a laugh  24 minimum, 30 max please :'(


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## StudentOfLight (Jun 24, 2015)

What was each of the predecessors intended for? This is how I see the current generation:

1) 1D-X - Action photography
-Primarily need to shoot action
-Need high fps 
-Need reliable AF
-Need excellent high-ISO IQ

2) 5D Mark-III - Portable, does it all (but 1D-X is better for action)
-Wide user base, many professionals, a fair number of advanced amateurs
-Occasionally need to shoot action
-Need reliable AF
-Need good IQ even in low light
-more controls and ports available for DLSR videographers

3) 6D - Portable, more suited to static subjects
-Wide user base, appeals to younger photographers and many advanced amateurs
-Do not specialize in action photography
-Need good IQ even in low light
-Prefer lighter weight

Will the replacements cater to the same users or has the digital landscape changed enough for there to be some shifts in thinking?


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## unfocused (Jun 24, 2015)

We've grown accustomed to improvements in low-light sensitivity and dynamic range and new innovations like Dual Pixels. There should be no reason why sensors wouldn't improve in the "cropability" of pixels as well. Who's to say an 18mp sensor produced in 2016 wouldn't stand up better to cropping than an 18 mp sensor from five years ago?


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## gunship01 (Jun 24, 2015)

1DX Mark II:

30 MP
10-12 FPS
Shots useable to 1600 ISO (Pragmatic approach)
HDR
Time Lapse
Dual Digic 6 
Dual CF cards

Don't need GPS, nor Video.

It can be done.

Price: $5,000


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## justsomedude (Jun 24, 2015)

I hope these rumors aren't real. If so, Canon is really putting me to sleep, and Sony is looking more and more attractive.

Zzzzzzzzzzzz


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## PureClassA (Jun 24, 2015)

30MP? at 14 FPS, you have any idea how much CPU juice that will take? Dual Digic 6 won't cut that. You'll probably have Dual Digic 7 with an extra Digic 5+ or Digic 6 in there strictly for metering and AF like they have in the 1DX now (Dual 5 plus single 4) Sensor density? Think closer to 24MP. That is plenty good for a camera like this and will yield 33% greater cropping ability than current design but effectively even better with the newer pixels. And shots "usable" to 1600? If you know what you're doing the shots at 6400 on the current 1DX are very good and highly "usable". Maybe we need more clarification on what you meant there. We have Dual CF cards now. We'll have them again on a DX2 (if Not CFast2 cards which I'm not crazy about because they are still obscenely expensive). Will an HDR mode even be necessary with the 15 stops in the new sensor? (HDR will still be in firmware either way).




gunship01 said:


> 1DX Mark II:
> 
> 30 MP
> 10-12 FPS
> ...


----------



## StudentOfLight (Jun 24, 2015)

gunship01 said:


> 1DX Mark II:
> 
> 30 MP
> 10-12 FPS
> ...


$5000, isn't that cheaper than the current 1D-X? I seriously doubt that 1D-X Mk-II would release at below the price of the 1D-X. Retailers would struggle to clear old stock. I don't remember Canon doing hard-launches of bodies, they always seem to do a soft-launch and gradually phase out the old model. 

I think the camera will use CFast 2.0 just as is used in the C300 mk-II and the XC10.

I don't think acceptable IQ up to ISO-1600 is good enough for sports. Sportographers needed ISO-3200 - ISO-6400 using f/2.8 and f/4 zooms for events like the winter Olympics where broadcast-quality-lighting was in place. The core users need the high ISO capability of the 1D-X. 

Also, a smaller pixel count will help with high-ISO IQ as well as with buffer and data transfers to news agencies.


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## K (Jun 24, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Will an HDR mode even be necessary with the 15 stops in the new sensor? (HDR will still be in firmware either way).



Who rumored there would be 15 stops of DR?


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## thepancakeman (Jun 24, 2015)

Kiton said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > I stand by my point, indeed you make it very well for me.
> ...



Here's maybe a simpler way to think about it: the 3 does not have the resolution to show the flaws that you are seeing with the S. They're there but the camera cannot resolve them, so what you see as "tack sharp" is only because the flaws are at a level the camera cannot reveal. Move up to the S and viola, you see the issues.

And if you take the output of the S and reduce it to that the of 3, they'll be identical (and least the "flaws" we're discussing will.)


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## mkourouyan (Jun 24, 2015)

With technology moving forward so quickly, and almost every new video camera and action camera, and drone camera shooting in 4K, it would be a shame and an embarrassment if the 5D Mark IV didn't come with 4K. I realize that they don't want to take away customers from the Cinema line, but those cameras have other high-end features that make them desirable to professionals and filmmakers. 
I do a combo of both photography and video promotional work, so I would need the 5D Mark IV to have 4K in order to future proof my work. C'mon Canon, don't let me down!


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## scyrene (Jun 24, 2015)

So all the people saying 18MP would be DOA, terrible, a step backwards, etc. think the A7S is likewise? Double standards? Or would it be the use of the name "5D" on such a product that offends?

I doubt it would happen in any case.


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## Luds34 (Jun 24, 2015)

What's up with all the 18 MP hate? What is the 5D3 now, 22? Am I the only one remembering that your big MP scalar number needs to be spread out in two dimensions? That a linear increase in total MP does not achieve a linear increase in resolving detail? 22 and 18 are, for practical purposes, the same.

22.3MP: 5760 x 3840 (5D3)
17.9MP: 5184 x 3456 (T5i)

So nearly 25% increase in pixels leads to only about an 11% gain in resolution (and magnification).


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## PureClassA (Jun 24, 2015)

As per the new sensor technology of the C300 Mk II that does, which will be turned over to the 1DX2 and perhaps the 5D4 as well.



K said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Will an HDR mode even be necessary with the 15 stops in the new sensor? (HDR will still be in firmware either way).
> ...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 24, 2015)

LSXPhotog said:


> Based on speculation and rumors, Canon should really



...have quit making dSLRs a couple of years ago, because based on speculation and rumors mirrorless was to have killed the dSLR by then. :


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## M_S (Jun 24, 2015)

18MP. Really? For an allround camera? This would be a huge let down. I expected something in the range of 28 to 36 MP. If this is true, I will skip the Mark 4 and stick with the Mark 3 or look elsewhere.


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## NancyP (Jun 24, 2015)

Actually, I am pretty happy with the 20 MP 6D. A bit more dynamic range, a swivel screen, and I would go for a 6DII. 20-24 MP sounds fine.


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## gunship01 (Jun 24, 2015)

StudentOfLight said:


> gunship01 said:
> 
> 
> > 1DX Mark II:
> ...



I'm thinking the price of the current DX will get below the $4K mark at the time this version sees the light of day. 

The Dual Digic 7 might be in place by then as well and should be able to push high MP shots fast. 

Sounds like the ISO will not be an issue then. Cool.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 24, 2015)

gunship01 said:


> 1DX Mark II
> Price: $5,000









This may help awaken you from your dream.


----------



## drjlo (Jun 24, 2015)

Full frame mirrorless. Better late than never, Canon :-[


----------



## switters (Jun 25, 2015)

I just wish the 5D IV would have spot metering from non center AF points, but my guess is Canon will never put that feature in anything other than a 1D series camera—despite the fact that it's available on cameras 1/3 of the price of 5Ds.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 25, 2015)

Blahhh. I really had hoped to stay with Canon, but it looks like Sony A7R II it is and perhaps even Nikon, depending.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 25, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Blahhh. I really had hoped to stay with Canon, but it looks like Sony A7R II it is and perhaps even Nikon, depending.



You're still here?


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 25, 2015)

dilbert said:


> the 5Ds is kind of like the A7RII



Only without the 4k, basic video usability features or the dynamic range....


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 25, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> They made the 5D4 low MP



I missed the press release, do you have a link?


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 25, 2015)

Crosswind said:


> I hope they make a 6Da with less resolution but much better high ISO performance... as I don't like the 5D's size and weight.



It's not possible to make much better high ISO performance. Unless they did away with the color array filter and managed to capture all light and directly read the wavelength per sensor layer and maintain the old efficiency they are already too close to perfect with the 6D to improve the SNR at high ISO much more without hitting upon the limits of physics. I supposed high ISO DR could still be improved a lot, but that might take cooling and the camera would weigh a ton and cost more.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 25, 2015)

RLPhoto said:


> It's going to be very tough for Canon to get my money this cycle for a camera body. The a7rii is a mighty tempting addition to my mk3.



+1 this looks like my move too

Which is what I've been trying to say for years. Canon has be on a path that even many of the fanboys might eventually find they are less than thrilled with after enough years go by. Look, even you are now thinking about simply keeping your 5D3 and adding an a7R II. I wasn't do it to destroy Canon (not that I could if I tried) but to make them better.


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## docsmith (Jun 25, 2015)

"...a few stops of ISO performance boost."

I thought we were in the range where we should only expect increments of a single stop of ISO performance? "A few" to me means ~3 stops. I'll take 18 MP if I get noise equivalent to ISO 3200 on my 5diii at ISO 25,600 on the 5DIV. 

But, seriously, I am not expecting that. 

Out of what I am expecting, I'd be interested in ~26-28MP and 0.5-1 stop High ISO improvement.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 25, 2015)

K said:


> It wants to offer what is best for REAL photography, not necessarily moronic tests on DXO, DP, or to please the tech junkies who want specs.



Only problem is those tests point to things that CAN make a true real world difference for some. Canon is doing what costs them the least and gives the most margin per body.



> This is why Canon likes the AA filter. It improves IQ. To the layman or amateur, current day use of an AA filter in a DSLR seems like an archaic practice.



I do agree here and they do get credit for this. I have a bad feeling this is where they may fall prey and follow Nikon/Sony marketing nonsense though and I wonder if the next round will have AA. It would be a shame if the one thing they follow from the new Nikon/Sony stuff is the one thing that isn't a great idea.



> The same is true of megapixels. The 1DX absolutely and undeniably proves that its IQ is superior to the higher MP 5D3 as the ISO goes up. Megapixels certainly isn't everything. Less noise more than makes up for less resolution. High resolution is of no help to anyone and cannot be realized or used when it is utterly destroyed by noise. This is a fact. There is no debate. The thousands of images made in comparison is the evidence to all who are not blind.



Compared at the same scale though the high MP cams do pretty well though. Take a 5Ds shot and then use smart NR and deliver same final detail as a 5D3 shot and I'd bet the 50MP 5Ds actually does better than the 5D3 at high ISO.... although it's true that tons of MP do slightly hurt the max potential. But again, since NR is more advanced than simepl MP scaling and since tiny grain tends to look better to the eye than a bit less but larger grain...




> Also, real pros doing real work know that 18MP is perfectly fine. While the 5D3 is the wedding photography king, a lot of event shooters use the 1DX also for its low light capability. They aren't bothered in the slightest about the MP count because they know the images these cameras produce is more than enough for any wedding album or print.



It depends upon the 'real' pro. Not all shooting is weddings. Sometimes reach helps a lot, especially for sports and wildlife. And sometimes it's nice to have more freedom to cop in later in general But yeah it's not like 18MP are so bad for many.



> Really, if you need more MP for a larger print - they now offer the 5DS for that. And once you are in the realm of creating large prints with such high detail - you're either doing studio or landscape work, and high ISO isn't in the game any more. This was a good segregation of specialties by Canon.



Only problem is then they fail to deliver modern levels of dynamic range at low ISO.
It's about the quality of the pixels too not just the MP count as you just said above. So why do you say that only for high ISO MP and not low ISO MP?



> All that said, for the NEEDS of real pros (not the wants of internet reviewers), 18MP would not be viewed at all as a negative selling point, not if the ISO was improved at least 1 stop.



Using 18MP instead of 40MP won't give you more than 1 stop better, the bonus is smaller than that for sure.





> If it is anything short of 1 stop, this will be a flop. It will need to be easily noticeable in IQ side by side comparisons with the 5D3. None of this drawn out side by side comparing to try and find the differences. On a basic zoom in of the image, it will need to be immediately apparent. A short glance to say "wow, big difference" ...not tedious pixel peeping of very similarly noisy images.
> 
> 1.5 stops isn't unreasonable. the 1DX is basically a stop better than the 5D3, so right there that sensor has it. Add in newer sensor technology and it shouldn't be out of reach I would think.



Maybe if you were more of a nerd you'd realize that expecting 1.5 stops better SNR over the 5D3, min, IS unreasonable. The current stuff is already too good the types of sensors used today.

And since when does the 1DX have 1 stop better SNR than the 5D3?


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 25, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty happy with my current 5D3's...if this rumour's true...I'll be missing a generation and looking to a 5D5 instead.
> ...



Exactly, these things are not free. It's a lot of dough. So if the 5D4 doesn't offer high quality 4k with basic usability features, improved sensor with Exmor DR and some more MP and so on, why bother spending money? Why not just keep shooting your 5D3? Or why not just add on an A7R II if the 5D3 misses things you want (say DR, more MP, 4k video)? You get DR and MP and 4k with peaking, zebras, etc. and can't still use the same lens set as you use on the 5D3. It would be far nicer to be able to sell the 5D3 and get a 5D4 that did the 5D3 and A7R II stuff but it seems Canon has no desire, or maybe even ability now, to make such a camera (although there had been some rumors about 30MP and dual gain per photosite and 4k, but they seem to have gone away though).


----------



## Perio (Jun 25, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Blahhh. I really had hoped to stay with Canon, but it looks like Sony A7R II it is and perhaps even Nikon, depending.



Sony A7Rii is a very interesting camera, and I understand why many Canon users are so exited about it. But there is a reason I personally would never consider camera like that, and it's the size. I was holding one of my co-resident's Canon T3i today, and it feels so inconvenient in my relatively average hands (I use 7.5-size gloves). As soon as I got the camera in my hands, I felt "how do Sony's guys hold their A7 series cameras?". Seriously, guys, I understand it's a personal choice, but I can't imagine a person with larger hands to hold these small cameras comfortably. 

So, how many of you who pre-ordered A7Rii cameras actually ever held A7-series cameras in your hands?


----------



## unfocused (Jun 25, 2015)

First of all, I think we are so far away from Canon finalizing the specs on a new 5DIV that it's crazy to get worked up over rumors of the number of megapixels.

That said, I don't know of too many 1DX owners complaining about low resolution. I'm not sure the difference between 18 mp and 22 mp would be that noticeable and if it improved low-light performance, I'd probably opt for the fewer megapixels.

But, as others have pointed out, it really comes down to trade-offs. A quarter of a stop improvement in noise, would not be worth the loss of resolution. On the other hand, there is no reason to assume that an 18 mp sensor in 2016 would have the same limitations as an 18 mp sensor from 2012. If dynamic range and noise can be improved from one generation to the next, I'm not sure we should assume that an 18 mp sensor from 2016 could not withstand more cropping than an 18 mp sensor from 2012. 

Everyone sees things from their own perspective. For my personal use, I'd like to see the resolution remain at 22 mp and have some slight improvement in noise. For my work, I often need to squeeze every bit of ISO sensitivity out of the sensor, so an 18 mp sensor could be quite tempting if the already amazing low-light performance of the current 5DIII gets even better. There are lots of times when the 5DIII's low light performance has saved my bacon, so I certainly can't dismiss a camera that might give even better low light performance. 

It almost sounds as though Canon is playing with the idea of turning the 5DIV into a 1DX with a detachable battery grip. I'm really not planning on a 5DIV until at least two years into the cycle (when prices have dropped). But, if they produce a mini 1Dx it could be hard to resist.


----------



## Mancubus (Jun 25, 2015)

I really don't think that Canon would go backwards in resolution on the 5d4 just for a few improvements on low light.

Maybe the 1dX2 will remain at 18mp to allow ultra fast shooting and huge buffer that wouldn't be viable with large files, but the 5d4 doesn't need to be that fast. 

Something within the 24-28mp range would be more realistic I think. By the time the 5d4 gets released, they've had 4 years to improve the sensor and I really hope they can make something at least as good as the Nikon D750 (which does just fine with 24mp) in terms of low light performance.


----------



## M_S (Jun 25, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Rumors. Rumors. And more RUMORS. Someone said (and I think it's perfectly plausible) that the 18MP figure may be a leak test for Canon. I'd be shocked out my mind if they went backwards 20% on resolution. If they want a lower MP/High ISO performer like the a7S, rest assured they aren't going to Megapixel hijack the cash cow centerpiece of the vaunted 5D line to do it.
> 
> I'd predict we see an excellent FF version of the new 24MP APS-C sensor found in the Rebel t6. That seems to make the most sense for a 5D4 given a Digic 7 chip (or 6+, or whatever) with a small step up in FPS (7-8) and a notable jump in being able to cleanly pull up shadows (like the 5DS) with a stop or two better high ISO than the 5D3



Could be. But lets say it this way. Canon rumours should be seen as an excellent vehicle to promote upcoming gear. In the advent of new technology of other competing companies, tech that is by far more advanced than what Canon at the moment has to offer in some areas, is very tempting. I would be very cautious to spread a rumour which such statements (18MP ?????) just to get to a source in the company. This rumour might as well tick people off and take what's out there right now, making them lost for the next product of the company and perhaps lost forever if they are satisfied with what the have then. From a marketing standpoint this would definitly and totally be the wrong approach.


----------



## Hjalmarg1 (Jun 25, 2015)

TheJock said:


> Is it probable that the 5DIV will have an 18mp sensor?
> Even considering better DR and low light IQ, isn't that a step backwards compared to the competitors??.....or do I sound like one of the Sonikon fanboys ;D


It might be but the 5DIV would be more like the A7S and hopefully will have better ISO performance and dinamic range than the current model.


----------



## RobPan (Jun 25, 2015)

unfocused said:


> First of all, I think we are so far away from Canon finalizing the specs on a new 5DIV that it's crazy to get worked up over rumors of the number of megapixels.
> 
> That said, I don't know of too many 1DX owners complaining about low resolution. I'm not sure the difference between 18 mp and 22 mp would be that noticeable and if it improved low-light performance, I'd probably opt for the fewer megapixels.
> 
> ...



Could not agree more. I hate flash. Artificial lighting is unthinkable in the situations where I take my pictures. (Never in a studio.) High ISO performance to me is much more important than high resolution. 18 MP is enough for most good lenses. Just compare Plus-X and Panatomic-X resolution. For me in most situations, Plus-X is good enough, no need for Panatomic-X. (I used Tri-X most of the time.) I don't have the figures, but I suppose 18MP is more or less comparable to Plus-X is resolution, perhaps even better.
Kind regards from grandpa Rob.


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## zim (Jun 25, 2015)

I want to be able to print to 36" without stitching and have 7fps also need to be able to afford to loss around 15-20% of the frame in crop.
As unfocused said 'Everyone sees things from their own perspective'
It will be interesting to see what the specs actually end up, the months of speculation I suspect will be painful though!


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 25, 2015)

​


zim said:


> I want to be able to print to 36" without stitching and have 7fps also need to be able to afford to loss around 15-20% of the frame in crop.



Nothing about DR? Gir would be angry, nobody wants that.


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## mark99 (Jun 25, 2015)

How about a 1dxNV
NO Bloody Video 

Putting video in to press cameras is causing rights issues at football grounds where moving images are rights reserved.
Then it adds at least £1000+ to the body price.
The video is a gimmick, we are not all film makers with a team of focus pulling experts on hand, a small compact like a Sony hx50 will win hands down anyway.
What we want is lower price and a good stills camera, at present if you see a tog with a 1DX they are either from one of the main agencies or a weekend warrior.
They have priced themselves out of the freelance tog market.
By knocking out the video, it saves VAT as well, in we could see nearly a £2000 drop in cost.
We dont want it, we dont need it.
Just make a bloody camera !


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## pedro (Jun 25, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> *As per the new sensor technology of the C300 Mk II that does, which will be turned over to the 1DX2 and perhaps the 5D4 as well.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If this isn't included in a 5DIV it will be quite a let down to many pro's using the 5D as an alloround/event cam...my two cents.


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## pedro (Jun 25, 2015)

docsmith said:


> "...a few stops of ISO performance boost."
> 
> I thought we were in the range where we should only expect increments of a single stop of ISO performance? "A few" to me means ~3 stops.* I'll take 18 MP if I get noise equivalent to ISO 3200 on my 5diii at ISO 25,600 on the 5DIV. *
> 
> ...


*+1*


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## x-vision (Jun 25, 2015)

My take on the lineup (based on what makes the most sense to me; I'm only speculating, of course):
1DX2 - announced at the end of 2015 with 22-24mp, shipping in 2016
5DIV - announced in the spring of 2016 with 28-30mp, shipping mid-2016
6DII - announced in the fall of 2016 with 28-30mp

The 1DX2 doesn't need to have 4K video. High-speed 1080p, though, makes a lot of sense for this camera.
I'm expecting 22mp on the 1DX2, since this resolution is optimized for full-frame 1080p - through either pixel binning or full-capture downsizing.

For the 5DIV to make a splash, it needs to have 28-30mp and 4K video.
Anything below that will be considered a disappointment by many - and I don't think Canon is stupid to not realize it. 
28-30p is a good increase in resolution vs the 5DIII. 
It's also good for 4K video through downsizing of full-capture images. 
So, that's what I'm expecting from the 5DIV.

The 6DII is the wildcard, basically.
I personally think that it should be a D750 competitor but who knows what Canon has in store for it.
Do they want to sell a sub-$2000 (and under-spec'd) FF camera - or do they want to sell a reasonably spec'd $2000 camera.
We'll find out when they announce it.

To me, it makes the most sense that the 5DIV and 6DII use the same sensor but who knows what Canon is thinking.
And I'm fully expecting that all three FF cameras will finally catch up with Sony in terms of dynamic range.


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 25, 2015)

Don't know about S/N but the 1Dx has over 1 stop more DR than the 5D3 at ISO 6400.


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## gunship01 (Jun 25, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> gunship01 said:
> 
> 
> > 1DX Mark II
> ...



LOL! I know...

Can't hurt...


----------



## PureClassA (Jun 25, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> LSXPhotog said:
> 
> 
> > Based on speculation and rumors, Canon should really
> ...



LOL! Nice.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 25, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > They made the 5D4 low MP
> ...



it's too late once it's real

possibly marketing feelers though might occur before it's completely too late


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 25, 2015)

mark99 said:


> How about a 1dxNV
> NO Bloody Video
> 
> Putting video in to press cameras is causing rights issues at football grounds where moving images are rights reserved.
> ...



there is no way adding video adds 1000 pounds, if anything it might slightly reduce the cost due to higher sales

and i doubt an hx50's video will touch a7rii quality (nor even, for 1080p, 5D3 ML RAW)


----------



## zim (Jun 26, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> ​
> 
> 
> zim said:
> ...



Nope my tall one  nothing about DR, quite deliberately.


----------



## TominNJ (Jun 26, 2015)

my take for what it's worth:

My 5D3 is a great camera. As an older person who cut my teeth on manual focus, screw mount average weighted metering I am astonished at the progress that has been made in these things. It is so easy to take pictures that were impossible when I started. My eyesight isn't near what it was and I am eternally grateful for the autofocus. With that being said:

autofocus could still use some improvement. I've missed some bird in flight pictures because the AF locked onto the background and it missed the focus on my granddaughter in a swing.

less noise in timed exposures would be great. I dabble in astrophotography and the dark sky areas at high ISO settings are pretty bad.

higher resolution would be awesome. I shoot songbirds and it's impossible to fill the frame sometimes no matter how big my glass. I have to crop those shots quite a bit and I could always use more detail.

more DR would be great for my landscapes. The HDR function helps with this but there is still room for improvement.

Something no one has mentioned (that I've seen anyway) but would be pretty cool if it was technically feasible:
how about a focus stacking function built into the camera?

I don't use the video much but will probably start using it more as my grandkids get older. I definitely would like to see it retained but I don't care too much if it's 4k.


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## ChristopherMarkPerez (Jun 26, 2015)

Checking with a local camera shop that sells to professionals and avid hobbyists I am surprised to learn the new 5Ds are not selling well. 

According to the sale droids the new Sony A7rII seems to really have caught folks attention.

If this holds true across the larger market (and not just this isolated instance) then Canon might very well have missed the mark with their new Wonder Device.

As is sometimes said: Stay Tuned


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## docsmith (Jun 26, 2015)

ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> Checking with a local camera shop that sells to professionals and avid hobbyists I am surprised to learn the new 5Ds are not selling well.
> 
> According to the sale droids the new Sony A7rII seems to really have caught folks attention.
> 
> ...



While Canon wouldn't put something out on the market that they didn't expect to sell, I never had the impression that the 5Ds /sR were aimed at a mass market, but rather a niche of the market. That said, the 5Ds is available at Amazon, B&H and Adorama...where the 5Ds R is on backorder at all three locations. So it could be that the niche going for the high MP is skipping over the 5Ds and going straight to the 5Ds R. 

Which is what I would do as well.


----------



## massive (Jun 26, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> mark99 said:
> 
> 
> > How about a 1dxNV
> ...



having video means its taxed a lot more.


----------



## scyrene (Jun 26, 2015)

massive said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > mark99 said:
> ...



Video cameras are taxed differently in the EU, but that's why recording times are artificially limited on DSLRs, to get round it. So a stills-only camera and a 29:59-recording length-limited camera are in the same tax bracket.

And given the RRP of the 5D3 is ~£2000-2500, are you really saying it adds up to 50% on to the price? I've heard this myth touted a few times, but never in quite such an extreme way.


----------



## NancyP (Jun 26, 2015)

I suspect that the 5Ds/r are not going to be popular as a generic camera, that's the 5D3 niche. Sony does have the mirrorless small size advantage, which is important for those who like to carry a large kit. Sony A7II plus 3 lenses ought to be lighter than 5D3 plus 3 lenses. However, the analogous Sony is the not-yet-released A7R II. I am guessing that there are some people out there who are waiting to see the Sony before they make a decision on the 5Ds/r.


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## Zeidora (Jun 27, 2015)

ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> Checking with a local camera shop that sells to professionals and avid hobbyists I am surprised to learn the new 5Ds are not selling well.
> 
> According to the sale droids the new Sony A7rII seems to really have caught folks attention.
> 
> ...



There is more to success than number of units sold, such as margin and break-even-point. Those are tightly guarded secrets. 

You can look at Zeiss and their rather low volume. I would not consider them "missing the mark", they are spot on for a very specific clientele. Or look at Tesla (I drive a MS), another niche product, also high-end, and quite successful, despite low production numbers compared to large brands.

Where Canon did miss the mark with the 5ds/r is a) not ditching the video, b) no easy user-replaceable focusing screen as on the 5d2. For a) it might me more difficult to remove video, than to leave it in. For b) I have no explanation, but it seems not to be too difficult on the 5d3, so I expect I won't have problems when my 5dsr arrives to try both the Eg-S and the Eg-S mod by focusingscreen.com. 

Re future, I'm set for a while. None of the rumored features in 5d4 etc hold any appeal. I got the 5d2 as my first dslr (after Contax RTSIII), but did not see anything in the 5d3 to make it worth getting it. The 5dsr meets my most important need for larger file sizes. As I do also 4x5", I am already a slow photographer, hence, taking care with set-up on the 5dsr is nothing new.

I will be paying close attention to new Zeiss lenses.


----------



## Adelino (Jun 27, 2015)

Zeidora said:


> ChristopherMarkPerez said:
> 
> 
> > Checking with a local camera shop that sells to professionals and avid hobbyists I am surprised to learn the new 5Ds are not selling well.
> ...



You mention Tesla is successful, are they making money? They are (hopefully) five years away from making money at that point you can call them successful. But I get your point about other small and successful companies.


----------



## WorkonSunday (Jun 27, 2015)

one benefit for high volume sales is driving down the per-unit cost for even higher quality product. look at 70-200mm F4 L non-is. no other brands can offer anything remotely similar in IQ for the price.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 28, 2015)

dilbert said:


> No AA has been widely denounced here as being an invitation for disaster with moire.



Widely? :




dilbert said:


> Couldn't possibly be that because everyone is an expert here.



Not everyone, dilbert...clearly not everyone.


----------



## GuyF (Jun 28, 2015)

ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> Checking with a local camera shop that sells to professionals and avid hobbyists I am surprised to learn the new 5Ds are not selling well.



I was at a seminar last Friday where the Canon Ambassador was saying they are amazed at the demand for the new cameras. Back orders up the wazoo (looking on a map, I think that's near Shit Creek). So who's right? The cameras might not be selling well in your location but on a global scale, they appear to be selling better than expected. Sure, the cynical among us may think the Canon Ambassador would say that but I have no reason to doubt him.

Whilst there, I asked a Canon rep about the 1DX mk2 and he only knew of rumours about rumours (maybe CR needs a sister website to deal with those). His suggestion was, if you want that sort of camera, just buy the current 1DX now and it'll last you years. This, to me, is a veiled indication they want to sell off their current stock prior to announcing the replacement


----------



## scyrene (Jun 28, 2015)

dilbert said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Of course, that assumes both were made in the same numbers. If the manufacturer assumed the AA-filtered one would sell better, they may have produced more of them.

You might be right, but there are a lot of unknowns in this situation - certainly too many to judge whether moiré is indeed an issue.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 28, 2015)

dilbert said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Oh, I see. A few people highlighting the risk of moiré in certain situations (architecture, feathers, some fabrics) is a wide denouncement and guarantee of disaster. 

Conversely, the fact that more people might be buying the 5DsR means that moiré won't be an issue for them. 

More facts from dilbertland, thanks for sharing your expert knowledge.


----------



## docsmith (Jun 29, 2015)

dilbert said:


> docsmith said:
> 
> 
> > While Canon wouldn't put something out on the market that they didn't expect to sell, I never had the impression that the 5Ds /sR were aimed at a mass market, but rather a niche of the market. That said, the 5Ds is available at Amazon, B&H and Adorama...*where the 5Ds R is on backorder at all three locations*. So it could be that the niche going for the high MP is skipping over the 5Ds and going straight to the 5Ds R.
> ...



All I know is that, at least thus far, lensrental/TDP have shown that there is a bump in resolution going from the "s" to the "s R" and I've only seen one example of moire from the 5Ds R (bird feathers) with several people trying to create moire. I am sure more will come up, but given the effort some have put into this and the difficulty they had in producing moire, the extra resolution (and $) would be worth it to me for the "s R"....if I wanted to deal with 50-100 MB files. Which...I don't.


----------



## mistaspeedy (Jun 29, 2015)

I'm really curious as how Canon will get video from the upcoming 5D mark IV. If there is any hope of getting a nice 4K video stream from the camera, it will need to be one of two resolutions (or crop from a larger resolution)
4K sensor for 4K video = 3840 * 2560 (stills) and 3840 * 2160 (video) 
8K sensor for 4K video = 7680 * 5120 (stills) and 7680 * 4320 (video)

The problem being that 9.8 megapixels (full sensor for stills) seems way too small, and 39.3 seems like too much.

The current sensor in the 5D mark III is perfectly optimized for 1080p video... exactly 3 pixels width and 3 pixels height (a total of 9 pixels) reduce down to 1920*1080 nicely.

Also, what do you think about DCI 4K video (4096 x 2160 pixels)... it is featured in the Panasonic GH4, so it is possible that it could make its way into the 5D mark IV.
However, this would require different sensor resolutions to the ones I mentioned above.
It would require:
4096*2730 (stills) and 4096*2160 (video) = 11.3 megapixels full sensor (similar to Sony A7s)
8192*5460 (stills) and 8192*4320 (video) = 44.72 megapixels full sensor (higher than Sony A7rII)

Does anyone know how other sensor sizes would scale nicely into 4K video without being an exact multiple?


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## meywd (Jun 29, 2015)

mistaspeedy said:


> I'm really curious as how Canon will get video from the upcoming 5D mark IV. If there is any hope of getting a nice 4K video stream from the camera, it will need to be one of two resolutions (or crop from a larger resolution)
> 4K sensor for 4K video = 3840 * 2560 (stills) and 3840 * 2160 (video)
> 8K sensor for 4K video = 7680 * 5120 (stills) and 7680 * 4320 (video)
> 
> ...



or they can do a crop mode for the 4k video


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## unfocused (Jun 29, 2015)

dilbert said:


> No AA has been widely denounced here as being an invitation for disaster with moire.
> Clearly something is wrong if more people are buying/ordering the "please give me moire" version of the camera than the one without.
> 
> That or the average poster on CR that has criticized the lack of AA filter doesn't know what they're talking about. Couldn't possibly be that because everyone is an expert here.



Typical uninformed comment. We don't know the ratio of models being manufactured or shipped, so it is impossible to say which is more popular until or if sales figures are released. If canon projected the no-AA filter model would sell at a ratio of one-to-twenty with the AA filter model and it is actually selling at one-to-10, there could be a shortage but that would still mean they are selling 10 times as many of the AA filter models.


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## GuyF (Jun 29, 2015)

Further to the "AA or disabled-AA filter" war that is now starting :

During the seminar I was at last Friday, both S and SR cameras were talked about at length. Until then, the only image examples I'd seen were either in magazines (not the highest quality of printing) or on the web (quality of image examples vary immensely. (sidenote: why do Canon post small jpegs on their example pages?)).

Images were projected onto a screen approx 4ft wide. What I did see was the SR is capable of resolving the most incredible detail. One example shown was a crop of a flower bed and stone plant pot - the "plain" 5DS looked soft almost as if taken with a cheap lens whereas the 5DSR was crisp without being over-sharpened. No contest, night and day, quite staggering. _However!_ We were also shown a shot from the 5DSR of a cloth jacket. Yikes. The moire was grim. Like, traffic accident grim.

So, where does that leave us? Simple, get the one that will suit your type of photography and ignore those who tell you you bought the wrong body.

More importantly, where's the 1DX replacement?


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## jeffa4444 (Jun 29, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


For the majority of stills shots it will be fine and rarely bother. For video panning with certain materials etc. it could well be a problem and thats the reason so far you will not find any professional video camera without an OPLF.


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## 1982chris911 (Jun 29, 2015)

GuyF said:


> Further to the "AA or disabled-AA filter" war that is now starting :
> 
> During the seminar I was at last Friday, both S and SR cameras were talked about at length. Until then, the only image examples I'd seen were either in magazines (not the highest quality of printing) or on the web (quality of image examples vary immensely. (sidenote: why do Canon post small jpegs on their example pages?)).
> 
> ...



Strangely what you say matches exactly what Canon told us here in the introduction for the 5DsR and 5Ds ...  
So I guess they really intended the 5Ds for photographers who have an interest to control moire above absolute sharpness in details, where as the DsR is the opposite 

Same as with D800 and D800E. Another thing is that the most detail critical pictures taken with MF backs are always taken without AA filter... simply because MF backs don't have an AA filter ... so I guess for professional fashion photographers that is not too much of a concern then ... 

Back to the topic I really think it boils down to the personal requirement to decide which of two bodies is better suited as you say.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 29, 2015)

GuyF said:


> One example shown was a crop of a flower bed and stone plant pot - the "plain" 5DS looked soft almost as if taken with a cheap lens whereas the 5DSR was crisp without being over-sharpened. No contest, night and day, quite staggering. _However!_ We were also shown a shot from the 5DSR of a cloth jacket. Yikes. The moire was grim. Like, traffic accident grim.



The question is how were they processed? In one sense, logic would suggest they should be treated identically. That was how the initial D800/E comparisons were handled, and the increased sharpness in the absence of the AA filter. However, in practice one would actually process images as best for the images themselves, and with the D800 it became apparent that the AA-filtered images can be sharpened substantially more than the non-AA images. In that sort of comparison, the differences were much less apparent. The softening imparted by an AA filter is quite predictable and sharpening algorithms are very effective. 

OTOH, removing moiré is far more problematic.


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## GuyF (Jun 29, 2015)

Neuro,

The images were processed in DPP as the Canon Ambassador (David Clapp http://www.davidclapp.co.uk/) had the bodies on loan just for a week back in March. DPP was a beta at the time. I gather he applied a fairly minor amount of unsharp mask - no more than "2" or "3" to images.

Whichever way you slice it, both bodies produced very impressive images when seen on a large scale. A scale on which most users (non-professionals?) will never see their efforts. In my pixel-peeping capacity, the DsR would be the one I'd get, moiré be damned.

Regards.


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## PureClassA (Jun 29, 2015)

I got the R and I haven't had moire issues yet even though I've deliberately shot some typical things I'd otherwise suspect should produce it. Granted I have not yet really put it through the ringer. I'm sure I'll get it eventually on certain models in satiny gowns. That being said, I've had good success removing moire when present with the LR tool. Seems to do a pretty darn good job of it with minimal side-effects.



neuroanatomist said:


> GuyF said:
> 
> 
> > One example shown was a crop of a flower bed and stone plant pot - the "plain" 5DS looked soft almost as if taken with a cheap lens whereas the 5DSR was crisp without being over-sharpened. No contest, night and day, quite staggering. _However!_ We were also shown a shot from the 5DSR of a cloth jacket. Yikes. The moire was grim. Like, traffic accident grim.
> ...


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## mistaspeedy (Jun 29, 2015)

meywd said:


> or they can do a crop mode for the 4k video



Yes, but if they crop, they are reducing quality by using a smaller surface area, instead of the whole surface.
A direct 4K (8.29 megapixel) crop from a 22 megapixel sensor means:
8.29 / 22 = 37.6% of the sensor is in use
or 8.29 / 18.6 = 44.5% of 16:9 available area in use
OR 18.6 / 8.29 = 2.24 crop factor.... significantly smaller than APS-C!
If they increase the resolution of the 5D mark IV, then this situation will only become worse, as a 1:1 crop of the sensor becomes a smaller and smaller part of the whole sensor.

Any other sizes will need some weird internal scaling (worsen quality) to get 4K video.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 29, 2015)

GuyF said:


> Further to the "AA or disabled-AA filter" war that is now starting :
> 
> During the seminar I was at last Friday, both S and SR cameras were talked about at length. Until then, the only image examples I'd seen were either in magazines (not the highest quality of printing) or on the web (quality of image examples vary immensely. (sidenote: why do Canon post small jpegs on their example pages?)).
> 
> ...



The thing is that that grim looking jacket, that is actually happening EVERYWHERE the photo is in focus, it's just that something like the jacket makes the aliasing pop out to the eye, but it's all aliased throughout even where you don't get moire popping up and slamming you in the face.

If you were to project 50MP still sequences as movies (or more possibly playback 2-8MP 100% crops from 50MP stills as movies) I'd bet you'd see the R version crawling all over the place and thus clearly demonstrating that even the stills where the damage doesn't seem so apparent, is still there.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 30, 2015)

dilbert said:


> It is good to see that you're changing your tune with respect to the lack of the AA filter being a significant problem that prevents people from taking good photographs.



A tune that exists only in your head, like many other 'facts' to which only you are privy.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 30, 2015)

dilbert said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



I'm not saying anything, you are.


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## Eldar (Jun 30, 2015)

My God! Dilbert and Neuro; Get a life! :


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## 9VIII (Jun 30, 2015)

www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=15495.0


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## GuyF (Jun 30, 2015)

Eldar said:


> My God! Dilbert and Neuro; Get a life! :



I've just had a horrible thought. What if they are one and the same person?!? Has anyone ever seem them together at the same time? No? Hmmm, makes you wonder....

C'est la guerre. :


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## Eldar (Jun 30, 2015)

GuyF said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > My God! Dilbert and Neuro; Get a life! :
> ...


Gollum?


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## 1982chris911 (Jun 30, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > GuyF said:
> ...



mmmhhh I had another Idea - Maybe dilbert is CR guy's second identity ... Kind of like a second personality to have a high discussion potential in the forum on certain things or a case of split personality that comes out every now and than and shows a secret hate for Canon if there are no news for a longer time (kind of anger management) ... Only theories of course ;D ;D


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## GuyF (Jun 30, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > GuyF said:
> ...



Aha! That's exactly what we expected you to say!! I put it to you, you are Neuro in disguise! Okay Scoobie, you unmask him and I'll get the Mystery Mobile. After we wrap this one up, we're off to the old haunted amusement park built on the indian graveyard to find out why Canon can't match others' Dynamic Range.

I don't get out much....


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 30, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > GuyF said:
> ...



Of course not. The Precious is a Sony camera you caress and stare at for hours as you crouch in your cave.


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## 1982chris911 (Jun 30, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Eldar said:
> ...



How should that work if there is no "Ring" on the lens ... 

Oh wait I just realized that Sony Cameras have an orange ring on the lens mount ... but to fully appreciate its beauty you may never put a lens on it ... otherwise the precious might get scratched ... :


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## Eldar (Jun 30, 2015)

1982chris911 said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Eldar said:
> ...


An theory worth developing: 

Let's say; I love a good discussion, but I do not like to be out much. So the best thing is to start a web site, to avoid the presence of humans, targeted at something I know a fair deal about .... think, think, think ...Cameras and Lenses!! Ok, I start a forum on Cameras and Lense and since Canon is my thing, I go for Canon (CR). 

So far so good. However, the discussions are a bit slow, so I enter personality no.2, an expert on anything from market research, the technology dungeons and most facets of psychology (Neuro) and I start threads and participate in everyone else's. Now things are moving … for a while.

But the thing I like more than a discussion is an argument and if that argument gives me more hits, I make more money and life is good. So I enter personality no. 3 (Dilbert), a Canon critic, who will oppose anything personality No.2 is saying. And since personality No.2 is confident he’s right in pretty much anything, I have a self-feeding forum, where, in case a thread might stop, I can choose if CR, Neuro or Dilbert will post something to moderate or provoke whatever camp needs provoking.

Brilliant!

PS! I’m sitting at an airport with nothing better to do …


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## 1982chris911 (Jun 30, 2015)

Eldar said:


> 1982chris911 said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Now it all makes sense ... And you already said the two most important words: marketing and money ... ;-) LOL


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## IglooEater (Jun 30, 2015)

GuyF said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > My God! Dilbert and Neuro; Get a life! :
> ...



The strange case of... Neuro and Dilbert? Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde?...


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## zim (Jun 30, 2015)

A film and book anyone..... Alright Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close up(s)


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## 1982chris911 (Jun 30, 2015)

Eldar said:


> 1982chris911 said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



To think that whole thing further there is still at least one character missing (Woman Lead Role) ... So if in the next few weeks out of a sudden a pretty female landscape photographer appears - torn between her desire for a 50MP Canon body but paired with Sony EXMOR DR asking of help from bpth to elaborate on their points why one or the other might be better ...WE finally all know its made up marketing for the forum ... ;D ;D ;D


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## GuyF (Jun 30, 2015)

IglooEater said:


> The strange case of... Neuro and Dilbert? Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde?...



See, now we have a problem. For the movie, "Neurobert: Destroyer of Worlds", do we shoot in 4k or what?

Well while you all ponder that one, I'm off to set up a Kickstarter account. $60m should be enough.

Since this is a rumour site, I gather Dr. Evil from Austin Powers will play Neuro and Kim Jon-il from Team America will play Dilbert. Meryl Streep is up for leading lady.

(I think I may have just made an enemy or two (you know what Streep is like.)


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 30, 2015)

GuyF said:


> IglooEater said:
> 
> 
> > The strange case of... Neuro and Dilbert? Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde?...
> ...



I'd opt for Jennifer Lawrence, she's nicer and will be developing relevant experience on a Spielberg biopic about Lynsey Addario.


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## RLPhoto (Jun 30, 2015)

In practical reality, I don't see canon users selling their equipment to jump entirely to sony. I can see myself adding a A7Rii to my 5D3 but I still need a native mount camera.


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## 1982chris911 (Jun 30, 2015)

RLPhoto said:


> In practical reality, I don't see canon users selling their equipment to jump entirely to sony. I can see myself adding a A7Rii to my 5D3 but I still need a native mount camera.



With Sony having a lot less lenses, especially the ones needed for high MP bodies that would not be possible... Just remember there are no real Ultra Wides, no in any way realistically priced Great White ones, (nearly) no very fast primes and only some MF primes for Sony ... most of the rest is not even worse mentioning. And the best 55 and 85mm lens in the world is not even produced for Sony Mount ... although it is a Zeiss lens ... strange but true ...  ;D


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## meywd (Jun 30, 2015)

1982chris911 said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > In practical reality, I don't see canon users selling their equipment to jump entirely to sony. I can see myself adding a A7Rii to my 5D3 but I still need a native mount camera.
> ...



I think he meant the 5D3 as the native mount camera.


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## Neil1000 (Jun 30, 2015)

Toes crossed Neuro is getting a full time posting to Basel - and what a breath taking location for a photographer. Not much time to spend at Canon Rumors.

Working at Novartis, Roche or Syngenta will allow Neuro to visit foto Marlin every Lunch and after work. The top end gear from all manufacturers is great and they have very specialised photo trips with tutorials within Switzerland but to exotic locations also. Their second hand window is worth spending hours pouring over. 

If he has a management contract the car will let him take the family to a million photo sites. Even without the car just hop on a train at Bahnhof SBB to Colmar for a great medieval architectural photo weekend. Or why not just walk down from Bahnhof SBB to the No. 70 bus to Reigoldswil. Nice drive from Basel and then take the Gondol Bahn up the hill and on alighting walk to the top and have a great Swiss mountain lunch. Do not take the GondolBahn down but make a walk with a million photo opportunities. Bus every hour.

Neil


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## PureClassA (Jun 30, 2015)

Apparently I need to go get more popcorn for this....


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## 1982chris911 (Jun 30, 2015)

meywd said:


> 1982chris911 said:
> 
> 
> > RLPhoto said:
> ...



Of course he did - but I was generally speaking about fully switching to Sony ... I mean if I ever think about it (and I currently am not as I am just getting a 5DsR) a Sony Body would only be an accessory kind of like a second back at an MF system ...


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## 1982chris911 (Jun 30, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Apparently I need to go get more popcorn for this....



Bring beer too ;-)


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## GuyF (Jul 1, 2015)

Neil1000 said:


> Toes crossed Neuro is getting a full time posting to Basel



Well I didn't expect to read that on a rumours site! That could mess up me filming the Neuro/Dilbert smackdown.


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## 1982chris911 (Jul 1, 2015)

GuyF said:


> Neil1000 said:
> 
> 
> > Toes crossed Neuro is getting a full time posting to Basel
> ...



Hehehe ... I only say EPIC Boss fight ;-)


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## GuyF (Jul 1, 2015)

1982chris911 said:


> Hehehe ... I only say EPIC Boss fight ;-)



Or handbags at ten paces. ;D

Latest I've heard is it'll only be on pay per view.


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## 1982chris911 (Jul 1, 2015)

GuyF said:


> 1982chris911 said:
> 
> 
> > Hehehe ... I only say EPIC Boss fight ;-)
> ...



If my previous stated theory about CR guy, Neuro, dilbert being the same person is correct... It should be very much like in LotR with ... well they already call him "Gollum" here anyway


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## Marlena13 (Jul 1, 2015)

such a great forum


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## GuyF (Jul 1, 2015)

Sorry all, my flight of fancy may have started to derail this thread. :-[

Back to the FF future....

Regarding the expected 1DX mk2, "...It will have a brand new flagship AF system..." Is there any good reason why Canon may not implement the eye-tracking focus mode from a number of years back? Do any of you recall if it was accurate?


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## PureClassA (Jul 1, 2015)

Ahhh the old Elan 7E. Yes, I owned one. The eye tracking thing wasn't perfect but it did a pretty good job. I can only assume that 10-15 years advance in technology would have improved it tremendously should they decide to implement it again.



GuyF said:


> Sorry all, my flight of fancy may have started to derail this thread. :-[
> 
> Back to the FF future....
> 
> Regarding the expected 1DX mk2, "...It will have a brand new flagship AF system..." Is there any good reason why Canon may not implement the eye-tracking focus mode from a number of years back? Do any of you recall if it was accurate?


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 1, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Ahhh the old Elan 7E. Yes, I owned one. The eye tracking thing wasn't perfect but it did a pretty good job. I can only assume that 10-15 years advance in technology would have improved it tremendously should they decide to implement it again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, speaking of the future...or a long time ago in a galaxy far far away...

_"Look, good against 3-7 AF points is one thing. Good against the 60+ AF points? That's something else."_


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## GuyF (Jul 1, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> _"Look, good against 3-7 AF points is one thing. Good against the 60+ AF points? That's something else."_



If it isn't practical for individual points, perhaps some of the expanded selections may be feasible?


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## K-amps (Jul 2, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> gunship01 said:
> 
> 
> > 1DX Mark II
> ...


+

That Alarm is set for 2019, just before the 1Dx3 announcement.... the 1Dx2 could be on a deal for $4999.... unless Planet earth has; all switched over either to Sony, or Sony OEM Customers...


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## 1982chris911 (Jul 2, 2015)

K-amps said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > gunship01 said:
> ...



there was some 3999,- announcement on FB for the 1DX dunno if it is legit: http://www.canondeal.com/hot-deal-canon-eos-1d-x-for-3999-2/


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## K-amps (Jul 2, 2015)

TominNJ said:


> Something no one has mentioned (that I've seen anyway) but would be pretty cool if it was technically feasible:
> how about a focus stacking function built into the camera?



It IS technically feasible, I use it on my 5D3 with Magic Lantern. However the solution is far from a complete one, and there are compromises, which may hinder Canon, offering it. 

It requires some Post processing and Canon would have to either make external software companion, or offer it incam, which purists would not use.

The issue... is the lenses, not the Body. For example the 100L I use, has focus breathing, so if I take 20 stacks, each successive frame with ML, is smaller and smaller, making it not straightforward in terms of composing or processing the misaligned shots (due to the lens focus breathing).

Having said that, give magic lantern a try, with a little learning curve you can come up with some nice macro shots. Here is one I took a couple of months ago. (lost some detail and softness when I down sized it to post here)


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## K-amps (Jul 2, 2015)

NancyP said:


> I suspect that the 5Ds/r are not going to be popular as a generic camera, that's the 5D3 niche. Sony does have the mirrorless small size advantage, which is important for those who like to carry a large kit. Sony A7II plus 3 lenses ought to be lighter than 5D3 plus 3 lenses. However, the analogous Sony is the not-yet-released A7R II. I am guessing that there are some people out there who are waiting to see the Sony before they make a decision on the 5Ds/r.



What Sony has done with the A7r II, is what Canon did 7 years ago, with the 5D II. It has everything one can reasonably desire in a Body in that price range. It looks like it's got everybody's attention. I would love to have those specs in a 5D type Body...


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## 1982chris911 (Jul 2, 2015)

K-amps said:


> NancyP said:
> 
> 
> > I suspect that the 5Ds/r are not going to be popular as a generic camera, that's the 5D3 niche. Sony does have the mirrorless small size advantage, which is important for those who like to carry a large kit. Sony A7II plus 3 lenses ought to be lighter than 5D3 plus 3 lenses. However, the analogous Sony is the not-yet-released A7R II. I am guessing that there are some people out there who are waiting to see the Sony before they make a decision on the 5Ds/r.
> ...



the kit is not really much smaller if you need adapters as the lenses are about the same size wise (dunno if the Zeiss lenses for Sony are not even heavier than the Canon ones) and most ppl. at the moment want to use other than Sony lenses on the a7rII also ...


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## K-amps (Jul 2, 2015)

I have an a6000, and find it hard to grip. I am assuming the a7 would be slightly grippier, but not as much as the 5D which I like.


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## 1982chris911 (Jul 3, 2015)

K-amps said:


> I have an a6000, and find it hard to grip. I am assuming the a7 would be slightly grippier, but not as much as the 5D which I like.



back in the day that was my first point why I chose Canon over Nikon (lenses being second and more resolution of the 5d mk2 against the then Nikon offerings being third) My hand just does not play well with a Nikon ... and you just hesitate to buy something you carry all day if somehow you hand does not feel all right ... same reason I don't really like the 1DX or gripped 5DIII and 7d ...


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## kevl (Jul 6, 2015)

I love the way my 5D3 feels in my hands, but that being said if the 5D4 is a compromise camera then I will simply go with the Sony. Canon is charging luxury prices for compromise bodies and that's got to change. 

EDIT: There is no reason the 5DIV shouldn't squash the D810. Why is everyone so eager to accept an 18MP camera? Everyone else is doing better ISO performance and better dynamic range with larger pixel counts. I've bought into the Canon system so it isn't easy to switch systems, but my glass will work with the A7R II very well. 

Canon doesn't need to remain a generation (or more) behind with the brand new camera.


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## TonyR (Jul 9, 2015)

I hope Canon hasn't forgotten how to improve on a camera like the 5d3. What I consider improvement is:

1. Higher resolution
2. Better dynamic range
3. Lower noise at higher ISO's
4. Faster fps
5. Faster and more accurate AF

I don't want a 5d4 that will be an improvement in one of these only by sacrificing other criteria. If they come out with a camera that's good in the noise department but drops to 18MP, they can keep it. I'll stick with my 5d3 until they can improve on it for real. What happened to the days when one camera was good for everything?


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## scyrene (Jul 9, 2015)

TonyR said:


> I hope Canon hasn't forgotten how to improve on a camera like the 5d3. What I consider improvement is:
> 
> 1. Higher resolution
> 2. Better dynamic range
> ...



Those days never existed. There has been and always will be specialisation.


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## dak723 (Jul 9, 2015)

TonyR said:


> I'll stick with my 5d3 until they can improve on it for real. What happened to the days when one camera was good for everything?



One camera is still good for everything...and you've got one!


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## Steve Balcombe (Jul 10, 2015)

TonyR said:


> What happened to the days when one camera was good for everything?



I don't even have one hammer that's good for everything.


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