# Bingo! New Canon 5Ds has 50.6 MP new rumored specs



## pedro (Jan 30, 2015)

Hi, just saw this at NL

"*Two new 5D variants are suggested, both with a 50.6MP full frame CMOS sensor
An EOS 5DS R version will be without low-pass filter
Magnesium alloy body, dust and water sealed
Dual DIGIC6
ISO 100-6400
5 fps
High precision 61 AF points
EOS iTR AF
150,000 pixel RGB + IR photometry sensor
New "fine detail" picture style
1.3x and 1.6x crop modes
Customisable "Quick Control Screen"
Time-lapse movie
Interval Timer, Bulb timer
This info (and pic) first appeared on the japanese site [DC - Google xlt]"*
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdigicame-info.com%2F2015%2F01%2Feos-5ds-eos-5ds-r.html&edit-text=


http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_5ds.html


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## wockawocka (Jan 30, 2015)

I only have two questions:

Who made the sensor?

What's the dynamic range?


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## adhocphotographer (Jan 30, 2015)

Hmmmm... 5 fps... I do a lot of wildlife as well as everything else... 5fps is not quite there.... 6 is ok...

Lets see what it is like and the reviews! It is not as though i gun it all that much anyway!


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## keithcooper (Jan 30, 2015)

*AA or not to AA?*

Whilst I'll miss the heft and usability of a 1 series body, it's such a big increase over the 1Ds3 I use, that I'll be getting one for our architectural work.

But, which version to get?

Good to see no huge ISO or video features in the spec list (YMMV, as I expect we'll see here ;-) )


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## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

I don't understand the narrow ISO range. This is the same pixel size as the 70D and 7DII which go to 12,800 and 16,000 respectively. This camera would be 1 1/3 stops better at the same final size or the same at the same enlargement ratio so I don't see why they'd restrict it so much. One of my only disappointments with my 5D was the ISO range which was 100-1600 with 3200 as the extension. It was fine for many purposes at 6400-12,800 using the underexpose and push technique.

Of course it's just a rumor so it could be wrong.

Also, where's dual pixel technology?


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## Gormantel (Jan 30, 2015)

Only 6400 ISO... 
The Nikon D810 has 12800 ISO.

So should we expect the Canon to be 1 Stop worse?

I hoped they would hold the status quo for the next MP jump.
But this seems to be worse than a scaled up 7D MK2.

NO DP, NO WIFI, NO GPS, NO VIDEO mentioned... let´s wait and see.


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## SPKoko (Jan 30, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> Also, where's dual pixel technology?



This!!! It looks like nobody in the forums is noticing the lack of dual pixel! If we get a confirmation that the camera will definitely not get dual pixel, that would be a strong indication that it is a Sony sensor...


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## Gormantel (Jan 30, 2015)

SPKoko said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Also, where's dual pixel technology?
> ...



It´s more that you don´t notice that People notice.


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## Gormantel (Jan 30, 2015)

I see there will be a "normal" 5D MK4 too.

Let´s hope it´s a 28-30MP camera with more FPS and increased DR and low ISO performance.
That´s what i really was hoping for.


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## keithcooper (Jan 30, 2015)

If, as I suspect, such a camera is aimed firmly at 'detail' photographers, then it will elicit howls of derision from many quarters.

If ISO only going to 6400 means that results are better at 100, then so be it.

Does DPAF contribute to image quality at base ISO, or hinder it? If the later, then I'd not miss it one jot (particularly given the amount of manual focus shots I take).

If the design effort has gone into making a top notch stills camera rather than a glorified camcorder, then I applaud it.

Hopefully a whizzo 5D4 will be along before too long to keep the naysayers happy* ;-)

_*A forlorn hope, almost by definition ;-)_


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## Gormantel (Jan 30, 2015)

keithcooper said:


> If ISO only going to 6400 means that results are better at 100, then so be it.



how is that?
can you explain the logic behind it?

from my (limited) experience the higher the max ISO goes the better the low ISO is.


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## traveller (Jan 30, 2015)

Looks like the rumours of a Sony-Canon 50MP sensor are true, even SAR states that one of his 'trusted sources' confirms this and SAR is a bit of a mouthpiece for Sony's marketing department to build hype. 

If true then it looks like the Japanese camera manufacturers are in deep retreat in the face of falling DSLR sales. It looks like the Canon don't want to invest in a new fab line at this time, so they're outsourcing to Sony, at least for production. They are both scared -sales are falling and everything they try seems to fail to change this...


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## keithcooper (Jan 30, 2015)

Gormantel said:


> keithcooper said:
> 
> 
> > If ISO only going to 6400 means that results are better at 100, then so be it.
> ...



I don't know whether there are any significant changes in the sensor technology. This may or may not make a difference - note the 'If' at the start of the sentence. 

My point was that I'm one of those users who doesn't really care about high ISO performance for my work, in that it's a nice thing to have, but not -if- it reduces aspects of performance at lower ISO.

It's why I'd hope to see a 5D4 that does 'all the stuff I don't need' and keep others happy ;-)


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## drob (Jan 30, 2015)

Gormantel said:


> I see there will be a "normal" 5D MK4 too.
> 
> Let´s hope it´s a 28-30MP camera with more FPS and increased DR and low ISO performance.
> That´s what i really was hoping for.


I think the "regular" 5DMkIV will be more equivalent to the Nikon D750. And hopefully, in the future, the 6DII will be the rough equivalent to the D620. 
Just a prediction, but it makes sense.


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## Kairumorman (Jan 30, 2015)

traveller said:


> Looks like the rumours of a Sony-Canon 50MP sensor are true, even SAR states that one of his 'trusted sources' confirms this and SAR is a bit of a mouthpiece for Sony's marketing department to build hype.
> 
> If true then it looks like the Japanese camera manufacturers are in deep retreat in the face of falling DSLR sales. It looks like the Canon don't want to invest in a new fab line at this time, so they're outsourcing to Sony, at least for production. They are both scared -sales are falling and everything they try seems to fail to change this...



both the first global shutter rumor (i gave me the name KAI) and then the sony canon partnership was send in by me. 

both websites where happy to report this pure fantasy..

i still roll on the floor laughing....


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## lintoni (Jan 30, 2015)

dilbert said:


> So a 30MP 1.3x mode and a 20MP 1.6x mode.
> 
> Comes packed with "extra reach" for birders
> 
> *This is also the first time a Canon DSLR has had an intervalometer.*


7D2?


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## Maiaibing (Jan 30, 2015)

adhocphotographer said:


> Hmmmm... 5 fps... I do a lot of wildlife as well as everything else... 5fps is not quite there.... 6 is ok...



You should expect to be able to shot 30 mpix @8 fps and 20 mpix @ 10 fps using the crop modes. This is what they are made for.


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## Maiaibing (Jan 30, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Anyone want to guess on the price?



Guessing in Japan is 400.000JPY = 3.450 USD. Sounds about right to me.


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## scyrene (Jan 30, 2015)

lintoni said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > So a 30MP 1.3x mode and a 20MP 1.6x mode.
> ...



I was gonna say...


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## bholliman (Jan 30, 2015)

keithcooper said:


> If ISO only going to 6400 means that results are better at 100, then so be it.
> 
> If the design effort has gone into making a top notch stills camera rather than a glorified camcorder, then I applaud it.
> 
> Hopefully a whizzo 5D4 will be along before too long to keep the naysayers happy* ;-)



+1 People buying hi-megapixal bodies would primarily be using them for landscape or product photography, where they will normally be shooting on a tripod at the lowest possible ISO. Higher ISO's make sense on a more general purpose body like the 5D Mk3 successor.


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## RickWagoner (Jan 30, 2015)

dilbert said:


> So a 30MP 1.3x mode and a 20MP 1.6x mode.
> 
> Comes packed with "extra reach" for birders
> 
> This is also the first time a Canon DSLR has had an intervalometer.





Don't forget most Nikon full Frames will do higher FPS in Crop mode, maybe this one will do faster also.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 30, 2015)

lintoni said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > *This is also the first time a Canon DSLR has had an intervalometer.*
> ...



Yes, the 7DII has an intervalometer. Once again, dilbert has managed to demonstrate his lack of technical knowledge.


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## Maiaibing (Jan 30, 2015)

bholliman said:


> +1 People buying hi-megapixal bodies would primarily be using them for landscape or product photography, where they will normally be shooting on a tripod at the lowest possible ISO.



Why on earth do you expect that? 

The leaked camera specs points to a far more flexible camera body than the current 5DIII which is used for a very wide range of situations only being hampered by its relatively low fps. 

So just as the D810 is being used for everything - including sports, wildlife, macro, astro, fashion etc. etc. - so we should expect this camera will used by all photographers that want to be able to do more with their camera. Especially, if the new Canon gains fps just as the Nikon D810 does when shooting in crop mode (up to 7 fps) allowing it to excel at action and sports. Here I hope for 8-10 fps in crop mode (time will tell).


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 30, 2015)

dilbert said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > lintoni said:
> ...



Then perhaps you should avoid making blanket statements like that out of ignorance…


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## tinkertinker (Jan 30, 2015)

calm down children 
better get excited!
good news after years of waiting 
thanx CANON


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## scyrene (Jan 30, 2015)

dilbert said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > lintoni said:
> ...



That explains why you were incorrect, but if your attitude is 'I make statements even knowing there are huge gaps in my knowledge', no wonder your pronouncements are so often at odds with other people's.


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## scyrene (Jan 30, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> bholliman said:
> 
> 
> > +1 People buying hi-megapixal bodies would primarily be using them for landscape or product photography, where they will normally be shooting on a tripod at the lowest possible ISO.
> ...



I have to say I look forward to more megapixels for extra cropping of wildlife shots, although I don't know how tiny a minority I'm in.


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## adhocphotographer (Jan 30, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> adhocphotographer said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmmm... 5 fps... I do a lot of wildlife as well as everything else... 5fps is not quite there.... 6 is ok...
> ...



SOLD!  hmmmm better start sweet talking my wife!


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## NorbR (Jan 30, 2015)

I'm actually pleasantly surprised by the 5 fps, I was expecting even lower with the 50MP (although now that I do the math, it is pretty much the same data transfer rate as the 1DX @14fps). If the fps do indeed get faster in crop mode, I'll be pretty happy with it. 

Now waiting for the price ...


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## adhocphotographer (Jan 30, 2015)

Ok... not quite sold... if it has nice low light capabilities, at least marginally better than the 5DIII, then i'm sold!


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## lintoni (Jan 30, 2015)

adhocphotographer said:


> Ok... not quite sold... if it has nice low light capabilities, at least marginally better than the 5DIII, then i'm sold!


Seems unlikely, given the ISO 6400 rating...


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## adhocphotographer (Jan 30, 2015)

lintoni said:


> adhocphotographer said:
> 
> 
> > Ok... not quite sold... if it has nice low light capabilities, at least marginally better than the 5DIII, then i'm sold!
> ...



come on 5D MK IV then! :
Sept?


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## AE-1Burnham (Jan 30, 2015)

Cool.

Come on Canon, now let's hear something about a 1-series "S" body..?


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## dolina (Jan 30, 2015)

Iso 6.400...


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## romanr74 (Jan 30, 2015)

i cannot work like that: when already i have to live with a lousy 50mp, then i need at least a 15fps burst rate with 409'600 iso. built in flash? swivel-screen? face-recognition? children birthday mode? white paint? hellooooooooooo!!!???


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## Deva (Jan 30, 2015)

Gormantel said:


> I see there will be a "normal" 5D MK4 too.
> 
> Let´s hope it´s a 28-30MP camera with more FPS and increased DR and low ISO performance.
> That´s what i really was hoping for.



Sorry, I missed this - where do see the "normal" 5D Mk4?


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## Helios68 (Jan 30, 2015)

pedro said:


> ISO 100-6400
> 5 fps



Hi,

I must say that these specs are quite disapointing to me. After the nice featured 7D mkII I was expecting a higher end full frame. But let's see what it can do.

Regards


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## Quackator (Jan 30, 2015)

Hmpf.... no radio flash controller, no Wifi, no global shutter,
no multilayer RGB imager - and a downgrade in high ISO
performance as well.

Not quite what I was hoping for. Not at all.


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## moreorless (Jan 30, 2015)

It could I spose be that ISO 6400 is the maximum "non boost" value, Canon do often differentiate between that and the actual maximum.

Honestly as a high resolution body though I think you could argue that the most important unknown would be whether it offers a native ISO 50 with superior noise/DR performance.

Price will likely be key as well given that the current 5D sells for about the same as the D810 you would expect it will be significantly higher. Honestly I think its tricky to tell just how price sensitive this market is, the really high cost double grip bodies like the D3x and 1Ds mk3 didn't do very well but you could argue that Canon do have lenses like the 17/24mm TS-E's, the 24-70mm F/2.8, the 85mm 1.2 , the MP-E 65mm and the new 11-24mm F/4 that target a high end resolution market and aren't cheap themselves


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## danski0224 (Jan 30, 2015)

Quackator said:


> Hmpf.... no radio flash controller, no Wifi, no global shutter,
> no multilayer RGB imager - and a downgrade in high ISO
> performance as well.
> 
> Not quite what I was hoping for. Not at all.



Could start a rumor about a 1DsIV


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## dancook (Jan 30, 2015)

If it has crop modes, will it have an EVF?

Else how will you be able to see it?


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jan 30, 2015)

If these specifications are confirmed, seems a natural replacement for the old (and wonderful) 1DS Mark iii, and not for the 5D Mark iii.


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## lux (Jan 30, 2015)

I surprised it doesn't beat the low light of my 6d. I guess I'll keep using the 6d for portrait and event and my 70d for birds and both for sports. This doesn't sound like it adds a lot to my current combination. I'm better off spending the money taking the family to a cool spot to take pics.


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## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2015)

It doesn't say anything about a battery either, so does this mean we have to plug it into the wall? Damn.... And nothing about a warranty either. I guess Canon gave up on those too along with viewfinders. 

Think I'll wait for the official (and complete) spec list before I start bemoaning these cameras ;D


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## zim (Jan 30, 2015)

Looking forward to seeing the actual full specs to see if my glass is half full or half empty!

Really like the idea of crop modes (assuming full RAW) but if the top ISO is only 6400 in crop mode, and how could it not be, that would be a half empty.

At the moment my pennies are still going towards a 5DIV


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## scyrene (Jan 30, 2015)

moreorless said:


> It could I spose be that ISO 6400 is the maximum "non boost" value, Canon do often differentiate between that and the actual maximum.



Surely that's a given. Although boost modes are notoriously dodgy in quality.


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## scyrene (Jan 30, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> It doesn't say anything about a battery either, so does this mean we have to plug it into the wall? Damn.... And nothing about a warranty either. I guess Canon gave up on those too along with viewfinders.
> 
> Think I'll wait for the official (and complete) spec list before I start bemoaning these cameras ;D



Ha! Well said 

Incidentally, a lot of people are taking the high ISO level to mean it'll be poorer in low light than the 5D3. At the risk of reopening a massive can of worms, isn't it the sensor size that's important? Like, if you downscale the 50+MP to 22MP, we'd expect it to be no worse, and maybe slightly better?


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## lintoni (Jan 30, 2015)

dilbert said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...


dilbert, Canon Rumors' very own Black Knight.


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## Eagle Eye (Jan 30, 2015)

Yeah, these stats are a HUGE letdown. No EF lens compatibility? No aperture priority mode?! I'M OUT! Oh, wait. These aren't the full stats? I guess I'll wait for the full specifications before criticizing it for lacking features it will obviously have.


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## Gary Irwin (Jan 30, 2015)

For me, the decision to buy will all likely hinge on it's noise and DR performance at low ISO's. If it's just an upsized 7DII sensor, forget it...I'll stick with my D800. Don't get me wrong...I like my 7DII for fast-action/wildlife, but for this type of high MP FX camera, sensor performance is THE most important feature.


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## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2015)

Eagle Eye said:


> Yeah, these stats are a HUGE letdown. No EF lens compatibility? No aperture priority mode?! I'M OUT! Oh, wait. These aren't the full stats? I guess I'll wait for the full specifications before criticizing it for lacking features it will obviously have.



Good call! Back the old FD manual lenses I suppose.


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## torger (Jan 30, 2015)

On the topic "which version to get" that is with or without AA filter, it will depend if you care about pixel peep crispness or _real_ image quality. AA filter is a good idea, sure it will reduce crispness but also take away most false colors and aliasing, and moire. Diffraction won't kill aliasing fully until you're up at f/16, so yes AA filter is the way to go.

But what will happen of course is that people will prefer pixel peep crispness over aliasing, jaggies, moire (because most don't really know about these issues or choose to ignore them) and buy the 5DsR and the next high res camera will only exist without AA filter, that was the case with the D800 and I think the same will happen here.


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## Proscribo (Jan 30, 2015)

Gary Irwin said:


> For me, the decision to buy will all likely hinge on it's noise and DR performance at low ISO's. If it's just an upsized 7DII sensor, forget it...I'll stick with my D800. Don't get me wrong...I like my 7DII for fast-action/wildlife, but for this type of high MP FX camera, sensor performance is THE most important feature.


No it isn't an upscaled 7DII sensor with that MP count. Then again it could be that these stats are wrong, but I assume the source has been quite reliable in the past.


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## Chaitanya (Jan 30, 2015)

droool.... now I am going to announce bankruptcy soon


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## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2015)

These cameras are built for studio and landscape. Period. So it seems. Check out the newer post with a 5D4 coming later this year


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## Maiaibing (Jan 30, 2015)

*WIFI, GPS?*

I wonder why the list does not mention wifi or gps. I find it difficult to imagine it will not have wifi at least (especially after Canon said that improved interconnectivity was one of the ways they wanted to regain lost DSLR sales). 

As for GPS I am less optimistic. Seems almost given to me it will not be built in since GPS is missing from the list.

Not a deal breaker for me, but a huge disappointment given how cheap it would be to do and how extremely useful it would be to have...

PS: Anyone else here have gps runners?


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## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: WIFI, GPS?*



Maiaibing said:


> I wonder why the list does not mention wifi or gps. I find it difficult to imagine it will not have wifi at least (especially after Canon said that improved interconnectivity was one of the ways they wanted to regain lost DSLR sales).
> 
> As for GPS I am less optimistic. Seems almost given to me it will not be built in since GPS is missing from the list.
> 
> ...



That will be your 5D4 I'd bet. But again....this isn't official.


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## mackguyver (Jan 30, 2015)

...and the memory card makers rejoice! 5FPS and 50MP, wow, that's going to fill up cards fast!


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## vjlex (Jan 30, 2015)

I'm curious about the Dual Digic6? Isn't the dual chip usually implemented for higher FPS or something?


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## rrcphoto (Jan 30, 2015)

shunsai said:


> I'm curious about the Dual Digic6? Isn't the dual chip usually implemented for higher FPS or something?



7DII processes 20MP @ 10 fps = 200 MP / sec. 5Ds/R 50MP @ 5 fps = 250 MP / sec.

thus needing dual digics.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 30, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> These cameras are built for studio and landscape. Period. So it seems. Check out the newer post with a 5D4 coming later this year



I wouldn't say that .. 61 point AF and ISO 6400 will work well in alot of cases as well.

if they've implemented faster fps with the crop modes aka nikon - then it could be a very well rounded body.

19MP at 1.6 crop. that's pretty sweet.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: WIFI, GPS?*



Maiaibing said:


> I wonder why the list does not mention wifi or gps. I find it difficult to imagine it will not have wifi at least (especially after Canon said that improved interconnectivity was one of the ways they wanted to regain lost DSLR sales).


depends on the chassis - the specs say full mag alloy. it may have GPS aka 7DII but probably not wifi. canon's implementation of wifi requires some part of the body to have a plastic chassis component.


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## jebrady03 (Jan 30, 2015)

Kairumorman said:


> both the first global shutter rumor (i gave me the name KAI) and then the sony canon partnership was send in by me.
> 
> both websites where happy to report this pure fantasy..
> 
> i still roll on the floor laughing....



Wow... you managed to troll a rumors website. You must be proud. How about you throw that accomplishment on your resume and tell all of your friends and family so everyone who actually might matter knows what to think of you.


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## BrianPowell (Jan 30, 2015)

Wow you guys are missing the point. 

The 50mp body with 6400iso is for people shooting for print and likely using their own lighting or shooting in perfectly fine natural light. 

It's not for wedding and event shooters. 
The 5Dmk4 will be the next 5D for low light shooters. 

What I'm curious about is where all the video upgrades go... assuming the mk4.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 30, 2015)

torger said:


> On the topic "which version to get" that is with or without AA filter



I'm sure we'll see a couple of hundred threads in the future on this issue 



shunsai said:


> I'm curious about the Dual Digic6? Isn't the dual chip usually implemented for higher FPS or something?



At the 50mp data rate, 5 fps *is* "high" fps!



zim said:


> Really like the idea of crop modes (assuming full RAW) but if the top ISO is only 6400 in crop mode, and how could it not be, that would be a half empty.



Fyi: On current cameras, iso 6400 is the highest setting *anyway* - everything above is more or less digitally amplified, so you can just shoot raw and underexpose. But as no one realizes, it will enable Canon selling both the 5ds and 5d4.


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## JonAustin (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: WIFI, GPS?*



rrcphoto said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder why the list does not mention wifi or gps. I find it difficult to imagine it will not have wifi at least (especially after Canon said that improved interconnectivity was one of the ways they wanted to regain lost DSLR sales).
> ...



Not necessarily so. I think you're confusing _body_ with _chassis_. The WiFi antenna would of course be placed within the body, but not inside the chassis.


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## InterMurph (Jan 30, 2015)

When comparing a new camera to the 5D3, I think it's reasonable to ask for better low-light performance, or higher pixel count, but not both.

This camera has more than twice as many pixels as the 5D3. If it were built with the same sensor technology, we should expect it to be about 1 stop worse on low-light performance. That is, a shot at ISO 400 on the 5DS would look like a shot at ISO 800 from the 5D3.

We can hope that advanced sensor technology could cancel out that disadvantage, and bring the 5DS low-light performance back to the level of the 5D3. But I think it's ridiculous to expect _better_ low-light performance from this new camera.

If low-light performance is the most important thing to you, I suggest you check out the Sony a7S. It's a full-frame sensor with just 12 megapixels. Those pixels are HUGE, and this camera can effectively see in the dark.

If you want to stick with Canon, then the 5D4 is your best hope; similar pixel density to the 5D3, but with improved low-light performance.


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## Light_Pilgrim (Jan 30, 2015)

Hello all,
I am a new users here. I have been reading this forum for many years, but never bothered to register. Well...there is something that made me register today - it is the rumor about the new high MP camera from Canon and the reaction from people. 

It is no secret that people are hard to please. Let me tell you one thing, Professional and serious amateurs in the field of Landscape, portrait, architecture and studio photography will buy this camera like mad.

I am the one. I only do Landscapes and portraits (www.lightpilgrim.com) and this camera has everything I need:
1. Most probably a very clean ISO 100 - this is what I use 100% of the time for landscapes
2. Very good DR and plenty of details - I am dreaming about it for landscapes
3. I will be able to print images that have more details and that are sharper

I am perfectly happy with 5 FPS - I am probably going to be happy with 1 FPS for landscapes 
I have never done anything beyond ISO 3200 simply because I only want to have top quality, clean images.
I started with 40D, then I went to 5D MKII and then to 5D MKIII and I never used video. I am just this kind of guy that needs a perfect tool for landscapes and portraits...I am not dwelling on things that I did not use or needed for years.

I think there are many people like me....

So I personally want to thank Canon. I will wait for review and I think I am getting this camera.


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## Maiaibing (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: WIFI, GPS?*



rrcphoto said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder why the list does not mention wifi or gps. I find it difficult to imagine it will not have wifi at least (especially after Canon said that improved interconnectivity was one of the ways they wanted to regain lost DSLR sales).
> ...



Thanks. I'll study this closer.

I'd personally prefer GPS over WIFI. But it would in my view be a mistake for Canon not to have wifi when it has functions such as intervalometer - how is that going to work (efficiently)?? Would also be unhappy not to be able to control the camera remotely (without buying clumsy $$$ accessories).


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## canonvoir (Jan 30, 2015)

adhocphotographer said:


> Hmmmm... 5 fps... I do a lot of wildlife as well as everything else... 5fps is not quite there.... 6 is ok...
> 
> Lets see what it is like and the reviews! It is not as though i gun it all that much anyway!



5 fps for a 50MP camera? I think it sounds pretty dang good. Besides, this isn't a 5D iii successor. It is a totally different camera for completely different uses. Impressive if I say so myself.


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## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

keithcooper said:


> If, as I suspect, such a camera is aimed firmly at 'detail' photographers, then it will elicit howls of derision from many quarters.
> 
> If ISO only going to 6400 means that results are better at 100, then so be it.



One has essentially nothing to do with the other.



> Does DPAF contribute to image quality at base ISO, or hinder it?



Helps, if done right. Think ML dual ISO done with separate sensors in each pixel.


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## Luds34 (Jan 30, 2015)

keithcooper said:


> If, as I suspect, such a camera is aimed firmly at 'detail' photographers, then it will elicit howls of derision from many quarters.
> 
> If ISO only going to 6400 means that results are better at 100, then so be it.
> 
> ...



Well said! 

This is a specialized camera that will appeal to a smaller audience. I think a "jack of all trades" 5D mark IV will follow later this year as well.


----------



## ewg963 (Jan 30, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Anyone want to guess on the price?


Great question dilbert hummmmmmmmmmm.....


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Jan 30, 2015)

wow, i don't get it. to me these specs look good, real good especially if they get the sensor right (and for a beast like this they better because if it doesn't come with some serious high quality at the low ISO's and more DR, then it should just be a jack of all trades camera). 

what I don't get though is how many negative comments here. It's like the past 2.5 years of canon rumors posts and posts just flipped over to the bizarro world. For 2.5 years - sonikon has XXX MP"S and sonikon has XX DR - and how canon FF bodies are only suitable for FB selfies and kneel and pray to exmor, oh holy exmor. Now we hear of this ---and yes this is a rumo spec list - no cr rating at all and the majority of posts want ---high iso and low light capabilities????? REALLY???? Did the past 2.5 years just happen or did I blink while the majority of folks here had their priorities change??? Get a grip people!!!

Rant aside - this does look pretty sweet. I can't wait to see what the actual specs are, and yes, I want to see sample images. Even as a wedding shooter, I can see many uses for this kind of beast - engagement shoots, bride and groom portraits, first dance, ring shots. 

the only thing to not like about this is that it does mean I probably won't be able to sell either of my other bodies - because for the ceremony I will still most likely need the 5d3/6d combo (I shoot lots of primes so I do need 2 low light capable bodies), which is fine. Oh darn I'll have 3 nice bodies by the end of the year, I know - terrible right?


----------



## CaptureWhatYouSee (Jan 30, 2015)

To me, the specs are not bad. Is it the same size body as the 5DIII? If so, I would have to wait for this sensor in the 6d...


----------



## candyman (Jan 30, 2015)

Light_Pilgrim said:


> ...........
> 
> It is no secret that people are hard to please. Let me tell you one thing, Professional and serious amateurs in the field of Landscape, portrait, architecture and studio photography will buy this camera like mad.
> 
> ...


This is the target group. You're right. The right specs for this group.
BTW absolutely great photos that you do!


And, welcome to CR!


----------



## Maiaibing (Jan 30, 2015)

dilbert said:


> What I think is upsetting people is that this camera isn't being aimed at action photography or low light photography AND has a huge number of megapixels.



Time will tell. It could easily have quite a lot more mpix and fps than the 5DIII (30 mpix w/1.3 crop @8 fps). Certainly the processing power is there.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2015)

Action Camera... Thats what the 7D2 and 1 Series are for. Cant deride the 5 Series for not being what it was never really intended for. Not saying it cant be, but its not designed to be the best at that.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> what I don't get though is how many negative comments here. It's like the past 2.5 years of canon rumors posts and posts just flipped over to the bizarro world. For 2.5 years - sonikon has XXX MP"S and sonikon has XX DR - and how canon FF bodies are only suitable for FB selfies and kneel and pray to exmor, oh holy exmor. Now we hear of this ---and yes this is a rumo spec list - no cr rating at all and the majority of posts want ---high iso and low light capabilities????? REALLY???? Did the past 2.5 years just happen or did I blink while the majority of folks here had their priorities change??? Get a grip people!!!



I've wanted a high pixel count sensor (with cropping options) forever, but base ISO DR means essentially nothing to me. My 550D has plenty of base ISO DR. I do want dual pixel. The whole reason I want full-frame is for better low-light performance.

If the specs are true, this camera meets only one of my required specifications for such a camera (high pixel count with cropping) and fails at the others (better low-light, dual pixel).


----------



## rrcphoto (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: WIFI, GPS?*



Maiaibing said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



not sure why a intervalometer has anything to do with wifi. you set up the camera's intervalometer and let it run?

it would still use all the same remote accessories that canon has used since the dawn of time including USB tethering. and there's third party wifi support if you really really really really need it.


----------



## bertrandG (Jan 30, 2015)

I would bet on a resolution of 8712 x 5808 then.

It makes 50.599 MP and each axis can be divided by 24 (3 * 8)which is convenient for binning pixels together (software-wise if not hardware-wise)


----------



## fiend (Jan 30, 2015)

I don't know if most people here are just stupid or just trolling?

This camera is not for everybody.
This is mainly a camera for:
- Landscape
- Studio
- Portrait

In which you often don't need 14fps, ISO 104 000 or something similiar.
What you need is good color accurancy, high megapixel, a lot of focus-points.

This camera is superb! I can't wait to get one in my hands.

When Canon 5d mk IV comes along, there will be better ISO, FPS etc but not that high mpix.
But even then. .some trolls will complain about a lot of things again.. sigh..


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Jan 30, 2015)

fiend said:


> I don't know if most people here are just stupid or just trolling?
> 
> This camera is not for everybody.
> This is mainly a camera for:
> ...



Grateful people are hard to find these days. You would think their dismissive attitudes would stem from their technical expertise in being able to make their own digital cameras in their tool shed. 

I think it's really great news that Canon is bringing back the legacy of the 1dsiii line, in an even smaller package. Should be a stunning machine matched with the new 11-24!


----------



## slclick (Jan 30, 2015)

I truly wonder if all these folks that go off about DR actually pay attention to Subject Brightness Range and Zones. You can chat all you want but does your work reflect actual attention to detail and texture in a wide Zone range say 3-7 at the very least?


----------



## ewg963 (Jan 30, 2015)

Light_Pilgrim said:


> Hello all,
> I am a new users here. I have been reading this forum for many years, but never bothered to register. Well...there is something that made me register today - it is the rumor about the new high MP camera from Canon and the reaction from people.
> 
> It is no secret that people are hard to please. Let me tell you one thing, Professional and serious amateurs in the field of Landscape, portrait, architecture and studio photography will buy this camera like mad.
> ...


 Welcome


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Jan 30, 2015)

Also, the D800 was ISO 100-6400. Even then the 36MP sensor is being pushed from ISO 1600 to gain its "native" ISO values. Not many people complained about the high ISO on that when sampled at the same size as lower MP and higher ISO sensors. I'm not 100% sure about eh D810, but I would assume it also pushes a lower native ISO to gain the claimed "native" ISO levels. 

If the ISO 6400 has tons of DR and is pretty clean, then pushing to 12,800 should not even be a issue.


----------



## thejager (Jan 30, 2015)

Now i just need to find a good way to put my Coastal lens on it...

exciting times!


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2015)

How often does anyone shoot above 6400 anyway? I really haven't. 6400 on this machine may be as good as the 6D or maybe only off in either direction by a small amount (less than a stop). The Sony a7s is an exception to that but it's a very special beast. Again let's wait and see what we ACTUALLY get.


----------



## bereninga (Jan 30, 2015)

50.6 MP! Where will I store all of that data?! Way too much already!


----------



## takesome1 (Jan 30, 2015)

fiend said:


> This camera is not for everybody.
> This is mainly a camera for:
> - Landscape
> - Studio
> - Portrait



Are you saying that wildlife and bird photographers will not be able to appreciate the increased resolution, improved color, dust and weather sealing? I would think it would work nicely on my 500mm.

And I have yet to see any one mentionn this about the crop function. Sure 5 fps at 50mp makes sense, the processors will probably not handle more than that. But how about in crop mode where the files will be smaller? Why couldn't you have a body that could deliver 10 fps in crop mode?


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2015)

takesome1 said:


> fiend said:
> 
> 
> > This camera is not for everybody.
> ...



Bingo. We simply are speculating. those 1.3 and 1.6 crop modes certainly open up the data flow for higher FPS. Maybe not 10, but 7-8? I doubt they put a mirror and shutter system in this body equivalent to a 1 series Action cam.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

takesome1 said:


> Why couldn't you have a body that could deliver 10 fps in crop mode?



Because you'd need a very fast mirror assembly. If it has that, then fine. If not...you can't do it.


----------



## takesome1 (Jan 30, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > Why couldn't you have a body that could deliver 10 fps in crop mode?
> ...



Often over the course of DSLR history the processing speed in a large part dictated the fps.
Keep in mind mirror assemblies that could put out high fps in a full frame body is old technology.
It would make this camera an all in one body.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2015)

Hmmmm.... CanonWatch has updated their post on this to reflect a CW# rating on the fact that the sensor has been made by Canon. Not Sony. Hmmm... the plot thickens ;-)


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

takesome1 said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > takesome1 said:
> ...



Yes, we have fast mirror assemblies, in some cameras (1Dx).

No, this wouldn't make it an all-in-one body, at least without dual-pixel and high ISOs. These pixels are the size of those in the 7DII, and that camera goes to ISO 16,000. There no reason I can think of that this camera shouldn't do the same.


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Jan 30, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> Chuck Alaimo said:
> 
> 
> > what I don't get though is how many negative comments here. It's like the past 2.5 years of canon rumors posts and posts just flipped over to the bizarro world. For 2.5 years - sonikon has XXX MP"S and sonikon has XX DR - and how canon FF bodies are only suitable for FB selfies and kneel and pray to exmor, oh holy exmor. Now we hear of this ---and yes this is a rumo spec list - no cr rating at all and the majority of posts want ---high iso and low light capabilities????? REALLY???? Did the past 2.5 years just happen or did I blink while the majority of folks here had their priorities change??? Get a grip people!!!
> ...



if this is true then snag yourself a 5d3 or 6d and shoot away! if dual pixel is an absolute need, then get a 7d2, or, wait until the next group of FF bodies is released. DPAF is a new tech, it's only in 2 bodies so it's time to get whats thee or wait. But if like you say -- "The whole reason I want full-frame is for better low-light performance," then stop complaining and grab a cheap 6d or a 5d3. This new beast is a specialized beast ---and yeah, I'd rather have a specialized beast if it kicks butt in what it's made to do rather than a crippled beast that had huge files and crazy iso's but no improvement at the base ISO's ----now that would be a FAIL!


----------



## kphoto99 (Jan 30, 2015)

Will it take EF-S lenses in crop mode?


----------



## erjlphoto (Jan 30, 2015)

Sounds like Canon is moving towards specialty DSLR's rather than a one size fits all.
These two should please the landscape and studio photographer while the mk iv might
Be geared towards action/wildlife, leaving my lowly 6D as just an entry level camera 

Only wish the mk iv comes out close on the heals of the 5Ds.


----------



## takesome1 (Jan 30, 2015)

kphoto99 said:


> Will it take EF-S lenses in crop mode?



Yes but you will need the extra mirror option and switch it out to do so.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Chuck Alaimo said:
> ...



No, that wouldn't solve the problem (undersampling) that a higher pixel count would solve.


> if dual pixel is an absolute need, then get a 7d2, or, wait until the next group of FF bodies is released. DPAF is a new tech, it's only in 2 bodies so it's time to get whats thee or wait. But if like you say -- "The whole reason I want full-frame is for better low-light performance," then stop complaining and grab a cheap 6d or a 5d3. This new beast is a specialized beast ---and yeah, I'd rather have a specialized beast if it kicks butt in what it's made to do rather than a crippled beast that had huge files and crazy iso's but no improvement at the base ISO's ----now that would be a FAIL!



Frankly, dual-pixel has the capability to improve base ISO DR more than any of Sony's sensor technology. Using dual pixels and simultaneous different exposure has the ability to get you to 20 stops with 7DII pixels and nothing but software.

And I still think base ISO DR is a relatively unimportant parameter.


----------



## K-amps (Jan 30, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> Helps, if done right. Think ML dual ISO done with separate sensors in each pixel.



That makes perfect sense, but how often has that sort of Logic driven the Canon marketing department.....


----------



## kphoto99 (Jan 30, 2015)

erjlphoto said:


> Sounds like Canon is moving towards specialty DSLR's rather than a one size fits all.
> These two should please the landscape and studio photographer while the mk iv might
> Be geared towards action/wildlife, leaving my lowly 6D as just an entry level camera
> 
> Only wish the mk iv comes out close on the heals of the 5Ds.



I think the main reason for specialized cameras is to increase sales. If you can not sell to more people then sell more cameras to fewer people.


----------



## preppyak (Jan 30, 2015)

Funny how we always rip Canon for not innovating. With what they have released in the last 2 years, they now have:

The highest MP DSLR (5Ds/r)
The widest rectilinear lens (11-24)
The best/most versatile super teles (200-400f/4 w teleconverter built in, 400DO, etc)
Incredibly sharp wide angles (16-35)
Cheap primes with IS (24, 28, 35, etc)
Cheap pancake primes (40, ef-s 24)

It's basically only in the super-fast prime (24, 35, 50, 85) that they have to update to be a leader for the next 10 years. And the 50 or 85 may just not get updated for a while


----------



## AA (Jan 30, 2015)

Hmmm, still no features like:
- touch screen
- GPS
- Wi-Fi
- NFC
- fast AF in live view
- pop-up flash

I guess Canon believes only people who pay less than $1,000 for a camera deserve those. (Or those who leave them and go Sony.) The more you pay, the less you get. Makes sense, right? 

And please don't come with the usual BS "only amateurs need those features" crap. The touch screen on the new 5500D can be used to pick focus points with your thumb when not even in live view. In ten years, every pro camera will have those features. A pro camera should be just as easy to use as a smartphone camera. As long as that's not the case, volumes will keep falling like they have since the first iPhone came out. and CaNikon deserve it.


----------



## psolberg (Jan 30, 2015)

really glad to see canon join the present. Suddenly everybody will now think MP matters again . off course we all knew it was just Nikon/Sony envy and that the MP race isn't over at all. 

This is indeed fantastic news. I can't wait to see sony's response too. good times.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 30, 2015)

AA said:


> I guess Canon believes only people who pay less than $1,000 for a camera deserve those. (Or those who leave them and go Sony.) The more you pay, the less you get. Makes sense, right?



Obviously Canon is dropping their linear strategy with "more expensive is better" - you're supposed to buy multiple cameras, or ideally a high fps 7d2, a high mp 5ds and a low light 6d 



psolberg said:


> really glad to see canon join the present. Suddenly everybody will now think MP matters again .



Time to dig out "18mp is plenty 'nuff" and "only Nikon trolls need a d800" posts of future enthusiastic 5ds owners :->


----------



## vjlex (Jan 30, 2015)

"EOS iTR AF"

Is this the eye-tracking autofocus feature I've heard people been clamoring for, or is this something that is already currently available in other cameras?


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

What does the "R" stand for? Ridiculous? Retarded? Wretched doesn't seem to fit (that would be a "W").


----------



## scyrene (Jan 30, 2015)

kphoto99 said:


> erjlphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like Canon is moving towards specialty DSLR's rather than a one size fits all.
> ...



I dunno. Is the reason we have dozens of different lenses to choose from because they cynically want us to buy more, or because they know the small number of people who buy several lenses want the best tool for each job? Try using a kit lens for specialist purposes (high mag macro, sport/wildlife, low light, etc).


----------



## bereninga (Jan 30, 2015)

erjlphoto said:


> Sounds like Canon is moving towards specialty DSLR's rather than a one size fits all.
> These two should please the landscape and studio photographer while the mk iv might
> Be geared towards action/wildlife, leaving my lowly 6D as just an entry level camera
> 
> Only wish the mk iv comes out close on the heals of the 5Ds.



The 6D as en "entry level camera" is still very capable! Plus, think of how much hard drive space you're saving. Do you really need 50.6 MP? I certainly do not as far as I know.


----------



## scyrene (Jan 30, 2015)

AA said:


> Hmmm, still no features like:
> - touch screen
> - GPS
> - Wi-Fi
> ...



As far as no popup flash is concerned, it's certainly contentious but is a deliberate decision on Canon's part. It doesn't bother me much, but it's a valid criticism.

As for GPS/wifi etc, some people claim it's harder in sealed metal bodies. Assuming that's true, they have every right to prioritise ruggedness and reliability over convenience for pro gear.

And you *can* buy external flashes, GPS, and wifi memory cards.


----------



## WeekendWarrior (Jan 30, 2015)

Well, no good news here.


----------



## gsealy (Jan 30, 2015)

bereninga said:


> erjlphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like Canon is moving towards specialty DSLR's rather than a one size fits all.
> ...



I agree with the specialty camera idea. And having two different models leaves me in a quandary as in which one do I buy, cause I sure couldn't buy two! There are trade-offs with each version. Then there is that ISO thing. And do I need the crop feature when I have other crop cameras already? 

The bottom line is that for me the 5DIII is perfectly fine, and great actually. It can do a lot of things and handle many, many situations with excellent quality. It just seems that for me, right now, the 5DIII represents a lot more value for the money. 

Maybe there is more to the story than we know.


----------



## NancyP (Jan 30, 2015)

First things first. Clean up my file-keeping and ratings. Upgrade that dang computer! I have been happy with it, but it is a 2010 pre-Retina MacBookPro. Granted, it's pretty fast with well-designed programs like AutoPanoGiga, but it has only been crunching 18 to 20 MP files. 

Canon may be recognizing that the (U.S.) market is segmenting into 1. the non-technically minded, screen-quality-only masses, currently heading rapidly to cellphone-ography ; 2. well-off enthusiasts and pros who are looking for a single all-around camera with good low light capability (6D, 5D3, 1DX in increasing complexity) and some relatively automated video capacity (PDAF should be on the 5D4 at least) 3. well-off enthusiasts and pros who have specialty interests (sports, wildlife = burst speed; architecture, studio, landscape = high MP) and are willing to buy specialty cameras in addition to their likely general-use camera. Making "specialty" cameras is one way to deal with the decreasing interest of the masses and still keep selling cameras to that segment of the gear-oriented population with disposable income and the far smaller number of specialized pros. It really is the only way for Canon to proceed in a relatively mature product line appealing primarily to stills photographers. Most general purpose photography camera users are going to conclude that the body they have is good enough for almost anything they do, and get off the camera body upgrade cycle, and Canon hopes, on to the more lenses cycle.


----------



## jiphoto (Jan 30, 2015)

I'm kinda wondering why no one is addressing the elephant in the room, video. I can't imagine Canon going the Nikon Df route and excluding it altogether, but will they make it impressive or an afterthought? This camera certainly has the processing power (and croppable resolution) for 4K video (although who knows about the heat-dispersion capability ala 1D C), but I highly doubt that Canon will actually put 4K video in a camera that, as some have suggested, will retail around $3500 US. Thoughts?


----------



## Quackator (Jan 30, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> What does the "R" stand for?



*Removed*.

They removed the AA filter.


----------



## DRR (Jan 30, 2015)

Quackator said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > What does the "R" stand for?
> ...



Resolution-ier.


----------



## gsealy (Jan 30, 2015)

jiphoto said:


> I'm kinda wondering why no one is addressing the elephant in the room, video. I can't imagine Canon going the Nikon Df route and excluding it altogether, but will they make it impressive or an afterthought? This camera certainly has the processing power (and croppable resolution) for 4K video (although who knows about the heat-dispersion capability ala 1D C), but I highly doubt that Canon will actually put 4K video in a camera that, as some have suggested, will retail around $3500 US. Thoughts?



I was definitely thinking about too. We will see. I would be surprised to see 4K in one of these cameras given that the C100, a true video camera costing $5K+, does not. It seems, just seems, that these cameras are tailored to the specialty still markets.


----------



## NancyP (Jan 30, 2015)

For those bemoaning the lack of pop-up flash, yes, on-board commander unit is a great idea, but I just hate the look of pop-up flash used as main light source. It's a "desperation" light source for snapshots.

On board commander unit now should be an RF unit, not optical pre-flashing unit. The market has spoken, and there are abundant very inexpensive third party radio commanders and flashes available. Canon could capture some flash business back by running the command through the menu and viewfinder (integral to camera, in other words), and providing a less expensive and slightly less powerful RF slave only unit analogous to the 430 EXII in addition to the 600 RF commander/slave unit they currently sell. On board command should include wake-ups, 4 or 5 groups instead of 3 (not that a lot of people actually use more than 3 groups), ETTL and manual mode control of each group from the camera, ability to mix ETTL and manual groups, etc


----------



## KBStudio (Jan 30, 2015)

Any thoughts on lens performance? Will the higher resolution push the capabilities of the current L series? No mention of new lenses, except for the 11-24. Hopefully the top of the line "L" glass will match the possible stellar resolution of this new chip.

Anyone interested in a Sony A7r and Metabones EF adapter?


----------



## bereninga (Jan 30, 2015)

NancyP said:


> First things first. Clean up my file-keeping and ratings. Upgrade that dang computer! I have been happy with it, but it is a 2010 pre-Retina MacBookPro. Granted, it's pretty fast with well-designed programs like AutoPanoGiga, but it has only been crunching 18 to 20 MP files.
> 
> Canon may be recognizing that the (U.S.) market is segmenting into 1. the non-technically minded, screen-quality-only masses, currently heading rapidly to cellphone-ography ; 2. well-off enthusiasts and pros who are looking for a single all-around camera with good low light capability (6D, 5D3, 1DX in increasing complexity) and some relatively automated video capacity (PDAF should be on the 5D4 at least) 3. well-off enthusiasts and pros who have specialty interests (sports, wildlife = burst speed; architecture, studio, landscape = high MP) and are willing to buy specialty cameras in addition to their likely general-use camera. Making "specialty" cameras is one way to deal with the decreasing interest of the masses and still keep selling cameras to that segment of the gear-oriented population with disposable income and the far smaller number of specialized pros. It really is the only way for Canon to proceed in a relatively mature product line appealing primarily to stills photographers. Most general purpose photography camera users are going to conclude that the body they have is good enough for almost anything they do, and get off the camera body upgrade cycle, and Canon hopes, on to the more lenses cycle.



Whoa, +1! I couldn't agree more w/ this analysis! Canon is really pushing the limits of what people want/need, AND their wallets.


----------



## RickWagoner (Jan 30, 2015)

AA said:


> Hmmm, still no features like:
> - touch screen
> - GPS
> - Wi-Fi
> ...



Seems as though this camera is going after the Pro Studio market, type of people using Medium format cameras now. No use for pop up flash in a studio and same goes for GPS. Wifi and nfc would be pointless because you can tether it to a laptop which is always close in a pro studio setup and allows greater control.


----------



## bitm2007 (Jan 30, 2015)

> Guessing in Japan is 400.000JPY = 3.450 USD. Sounds about right to me.



Count me in at that price, for that spec i'm expecting it will be at least another K.


----------



## Tinky (Jan 30, 2015)

not much mention of video specification....


----------



## jrista (Jan 30, 2015)

Interesting about the ISO, but for this particular camera (5Ds...studio camera, pplz! ;P), I truly don't think it matters. It's got a good mp count and the nice big frame, which should be better for landscapes. I really couldn't care about much more than ISO 800 tops for landscapes.


The only thing I really care about is...what's the read noise? Did Canon fix their DR issues, or not? If _not_, then I still don't care if it's 50mp, 80mp, or 100mp...I'd still get a D810.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

KBStudio said:


> Any thoughts on lens performance? Will the higher resolution push the capabilities of the current L series?



Not even close.


----------



## bmwzimmer (Jan 30, 2015)

I Really like the direction Canon is going with this.

Below are my predictions!!

1,) 5DS and 5DS R for high megapixel/DR Landscape/Studio work at lower ISO's. Available in the Spring. 

2.) 24-28mp 5D mk4 (Canon Sensor with adequate DR slightly improved ISO from old 5D3) that's the jack of all trades with 8 frames/sec & 1.3/1.6 crop modes with true 1DX Autofocus (61pt 1DX AF > 61 pt 5Diii AF). I'm OK with this camera having a minimum of the 7Dii's video capabilities (1080p/60 & no touchscreen). Available in the Fall.

3.) And finally a 6Dii with the A7S's 12mp high ISO sensitivity sensor with 70d swivel touchscreen with 19 cross type sensors all cluttered in the middle. Full Polycarbonate body to keep costs down and capable of some kind of limited 4K video. OF course no headphone out jack and single SD card slot. Available in the Fall with the 5D4 or Winter of 2015.

4.) New 1D series that is Mirrorless that can shoot 20-30 fps with similar to the Sony's A6000's 179+ AF points (but better)???


----------



## GuyF (Jan 30, 2015)

The latest update from Canonwatch:


50.6MP full-size CMOS sensor (53MP total count)
5DS R is without low-pass filter
Magnesium alloy body
Dust and water sealed
Dual processor DIGIC6
Regular sensitivity ISO 100-6400, expand to 12800
Continuous shooting 5 frames / sec.
High precision 61-point AF, 41 cross type
EOS iTR AF
150,000 pixel RGB + IR photometry sensor
Added “fine detail” to the Picture Style
1.3x and 1.6x crop shooting mode
Customizable “Quick Control Screen”
Time-lapse movie
Anti-flicker
Interval Timer
Bulb timer
No headphone terminal
No DAF
No HDMI output for video (clean out). Not to compete with 5D III other video features are same.

The source also stated that the sensor is made by Canon using a new CMOS manufacturing process.

So, who's first to pre-order one?


----------



## SwnSng (Jan 30, 2015)

Light_Pilgrim said:


> Hello all,
> I am a new users here. I have been reading this forum for many years, but never bothered to register. Well...there is something that made me register today - it is the rumor about the new high MP camera from Canon and the reaction from people.
> 
> It is no secret that people are hard to please. Let me tell you one thing, Professional and serious amateurs in the field of Landscape, portrait, architecture and studio photography will buy this camera like mad.
> ...



+1


----------



## can0nfan2379 (Jan 30, 2015)

RickWagoner said:


> AA said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm, still no features like:
> ...



If they are going for the studio / landscape / portrait shooter, I sure as heck hope that they are going to include high precision interchangeable focus screens for fast MF glass (ala Zeiss Otus). I still detest live view for walk around use.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

GuyF said:


> The latest update from Canonwatch:
> 
> 
> 50.6MP full-size CMOS sensor (53MP total count)
> ...



If that's really the spec list, I probably wouldn't pay more than the cost of a 6D for it.


----------



## Stu_bert (Jan 30, 2015)

Karlpedal said:


> traveller said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like the rumours of a Sony-Canon 50MP sensor are true, even SAR states that one of his 'trusted sources' confirms this and SAR is a bit of a mouthpiece for Sony's marketing department to build hype.
> ...



Different things, the camera business selling the whole, not the parts, ie sensor, may well be in retreat. Bear in mind it's addition purchase which they want to sell to make the profits, not just a sensor, ie lenses and the like. Tom Hogan has a similar article on his site, interesting read...


----------



## jiphoto (Jan 30, 2015)

GuyF said:


> The latest update from Canonwatch:
> 
> 
> 50.6MP full-size CMOS sensor (53MP total count)
> ...


Well there's our answer for video... same as 5D III, except no serious filmmakers will want to use it because it lacks a headphone port and clean HDMI. No surprises there really, Canon likes making videographers pay more (1D C) or stick with a camera that may be missing features they would like (5D II originally). And no, I won't be pre-ordering. Poor college students can't afford this sort of thing, and the specs aren't up my alley anyway - indoor high ISO performance appears to take a backseat to detail. Now don't get me wrong, I love higher resolution, and my 7D is really lacking sometimes, but I need clean indoor shots, so I'd go for the 5D III over the 5Ds or whatever it is any day.


----------



## bartoloman (Jan 30, 2015)

I really hope this is true. Fingers crossed !


----------



## skoobey (Jan 30, 2015)

Sounds about right. A studio camera.


----------



## Light_Pilgrim (Jan 30, 2015)

Most probably for the first time in my life I can say that I will get a camera that is just perfect for me. Based on what I read, it has all the things I wanted and doesn't have things I completely do not need. It is hard to imagine, but I really feel like I was designing this thing specifically for my needs

1. I am more and more into landscapes and I want the best possible ISO 100, the sharpest possible image and as many details as I can possibly get

2. I am also into portraits, but I do it outside and I love the ambient light. I always go for ultimate image quality, so ISO 1200-1600 is the limit for me, but I always try to use ISO 100-800 for portraits.

3. I am trying to learn to take a lot less photographs and behave as if I had a film camera. This way I challenge myself to plan better, think harder and be a lot more creative

I have never used video with 5D MKII or 5D MKIII. I have never taken a photo beyond ISO 3200.

Can't believe this camera can give all the things I really need and will take away things that were never needed. Maybe this is what it means to be more professional and segmented - you do not make a camera that works for everybody, but give your segments the best possible tools. Cool!


----------



## Light_Pilgrim (Jan 30, 2015)

I am sure you can take landscapes with it too...



skoobey said:


> Sounds about right. A studio camera.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 30, 2015)

Light_Pilgrim said:


> Most probably for the first time in my life I can say that I will get a camera that is just perfect for me.



Be careful what you wish for: If you produce mediocre results, you've got no excuse left :->


----------



## CaptureWhatYouSee (Jan 30, 2015)

Light_Pilgrim said:


> I am sure you can take landscapes with it too...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How can it be a true landscape Camera without GPS?


----------



## Light_Pilgrim (Jan 30, 2015)

Because true landscape photographers know their spots and do not want anybody else to know them....



CaptureWhatYouSee said:


> Light_Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> > I am sure you can take landscapes with it too...
> ...


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 30, 2015)

CaptureWhatYouSee said:


> How can it be a true landscape Camera without GPS?



Because landscape doesn't equal travel, so never mind the added bulk or accepting the hassle of merging the tracklogs in post. And of course Canon is willing to take the €€€ for more addon equipment 

External gps is more precise, has less warm-up time, longer battery life - and Canon's in-camera version doesn't even record the camera's direction as hotshoe versions do with a compass.


----------



## CaptureWhatYouSee (Jan 30, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> CaptureWhatYouSee said:
> 
> 
> > How can it be a true landscape Camera without GPS?
> ...



True if you live in ALL landscapes. Otherwise, you will have to travel to get to one... ;}

Thanks. I'll look into the external versions. Any suggestions?


----------



## Pesto (Jan 30, 2015)

It seems to me that Canon has abandoned us EOS1D users...such a pitty.


----------



## justsomedude (Jan 30, 2015)

Am I bonkers for having no interest in this 5Ds business? 50MP just seems silly to me.

I'll be waiting until august to see what the 5D4 brings.


----------



## scyrene (Jan 30, 2015)

CaptureWhatYouSee said:


> Light_Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> > I am sure you can take landscapes with it too...
> ...



I know you could argue against all innovation like this, but people have managed to take awesome landscape shots without GPS for a century and a half. Surely the best landscapes are taken by people who precisely where they're shooting from.

Sure GPS would be nice, but its absence hardly disqualifies this from being a good landscape camera, if that is indeed how it is aimed.


----------



## scyrene (Jan 30, 2015)

Seeing as everyone else does this, I may as well add my personal standpoint. Birds are my top subject, and I welcome more MP. Cropping is still a huge part of what I do. If the ISO is essentially the same as the 5D3 then more pixels would be enough at that level (fps isn't a problem, I usually use the 'silent' mode and find it fast enough, which is less than 6fps, I forget exactly what). Crop modes are all very well, but you can crop after the fact of course (if it involved higher fps that might be useful in some circumstances).

So for me - extra MP = good. Better high/low ISO is good but I don't care too much. That's it really! Well, price of course


----------



## The Flasher (Jan 30, 2015)

Quackator said:


> Hmpf.... no radio flash controller, no Wifi, no global shutter,
> no multilayer RGB imager - and a downgrade in high ISO
> performance as well.
> 
> Not quite what I was hoping for. Not at all.



No swivel screen either.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 30, 2015)

Pesto said:


> It seems to me that Canon has abandoned us EOS1D users...such a pitty.



You're so right. Yesterday, my 1D X was awesome...today it's suddenly a piece of crap.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2015)

Pesto said:


> It seems to me that Canon has abandoned us EOS1D users...such a pitty.



No one said a new 1DX isn't coming this year too.... a $4000 price drop on a 1DC on Monday? No DPAF in that one, but almost certainly in a new 1DX2... Hmmm... Something tell me the 1DC series is on the endangered species list and the 1DX2 will fully encompass BOTH high speed sports/action AND 4k at the same $7-8k price point. The 1DC as it is NOW is really nothing more than a 1DX with 4k added in. Wouldn't make much sense to have a DPAF 1 series for stills and a 1DC for video without DPAF for Canon at this point...

Read between the lines.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 30, 2015)

dancook said:


> If it has crop modes, will it have an EVF?
> 
> Else how will you be able to see it?



So you're saying that the Nikon FX cameras with a DX crop mode have an EVF? Or are you saying that since those cameras don't have an EVF, the crop mode cannot be used? :

In fact, with the transmissive LCD in many current Canon bodies, indicating the crop frame on-demand would be trivial.


----------



## drjlo (Jan 30, 2015)

Hmm. With the Canony collaboration, I wonder if the sensor in 5D IV will be the current Sony 24 MP sensor that is in Nikon D750 and Sony A7? 
If Canon is going to use Sony sensors, I personally wish the Sony 36MP sensor would make it into 5D IV :-\


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 30, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Pesto said:
> 
> 
> > It seems to me that Canon has abandoned us EOS1D users...such a pitty.
> ...



As far as usability and iq goes, the low-res 1dx might do still do ok-ish  ... 

... but alas, with about a third of the metapixie count if the new flagships, the glamour and prestigious ownership might take a hit for six. I imagine we'll see less "just get the best" 1dx people who don't make use of its capability as these customers will go 5ds now.


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Jan 30, 2015)

drjlo said:


> Hmm. With the Canony collaboration, I wonder if the sensor in 5D IV will be the current Sony 24 MP sensor that is in Nikon D750 and Sony A7?
> If Canon is going to use Sony sensors, I personally wish the Sony 36MP sensor would make it into 5D IV :-\



Now why would they do that? the 5d4 will be the nimble camera for action/event shooters/low light shooters - if it has 36 mp then that really dampens the uses a bit (huge files that don't need to be huge, hence why the res of the 5d4 shouldn't be much more than the current one - a modest increase in Res and better af, increased high iso sensitivity. 36 is overkill if you have a studio cam like the rumored one.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 30, 2015)

I'll be waiting for a 5D MK IV. This camera seems aimed directly at studio photography, wedding photography, and landscape photography. 

I'm more into low light photography, and ISO 6400 is not high enough. I'm sure that this one will be just what many want and will use.


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Jan 30, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Pesto said:
> ...



the funny thing about this is ----look at nikon --- they went with big mp first...but what did their flagship d4 and d4s get? 16.2MP --- 16 on the d4 which was pre sony chip era, and 16 on the d4s which was after the sony partnership. 

maybe canon's market research showed that people who need extremely high quality large file images aren't shooting sports? LOL, how many studio strobes can fire at 14 fps???? lol (and yeah, do you really need 14fps if you mounted to a tripod at iso 100, f16, and a 10 stop filter on your camera....lol....)


----------



## cliffwang (Jan 30, 2015)

Not excited. ISO 6400 camera is not for me. Where is 5D MK4?


----------



## justsomedude (Jan 30, 2015)

cliffwang said:


> Not excited. ISO 6400 camera is not for me. Where is 5D MK4?



Coming in August - according to Northlight.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 30, 2015)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> maybe canon's market research showed that people who need extremely high quality large file images aren't shooting sports?



It'll be interesting what the Canon 1dx2 will feature. With Nikon, imho 36mp isn't a game-changing difference ... it's the worst of both worlds, large files and not that much of a real world x*y pixel increase.

However, 50+mp is really a big splash, and manufacturers' marketing divisions will need nerves of steel (and reliable market data, if something like this exists at all) to keep their gripped "pro" models below 20mp. After all, it's not only "pros" buying them, but also rich folk looking for the "best".



Chuck Alaimo said:


> LOL, how many studio strobes can fire at 14 fps???? lol (and yeah, do you really need 14fps if you mounted to a tripod at iso 100, f16, and a 10 stop filter on your camera....lol....)



Thank the maker for that, because otherwise I'd really feel inferior with my 6d. But ignoring the crappy af system, the low fps doesn't matter as I'm using (fill) flash all the time.


----------



## dolina (Jan 30, 2015)

Why is Canon following the naming convention of Sony?

Is it because they're using a Sony sensor that only goes up to ISO 6,400. ;D

The 7D Mark II by contrast goes up to 160,000?

Based on how many other sites see the specs it appears to be very legit.

Disappointments for me are...

AF system is not equal or exceeds those of the 7D Mark II
No mention of GPS
No mention of WiFi
No mention of NFC
No mention of 4K (which to me would justify it costing beyond $3,000)

Any who I hope the announcement does happen on the first Friday of February


----------



## justsomedude (Jan 30, 2015)

dolina said:


> Disappointments for me are...
> 
> AF system is not equal or exceeds those of the 7D Mark II
> No mention of GPS
> ...



I would not take the spec list as final and or Gospel; it was hocked from a Japanese camera website translated by Google translate. Probably just a sneak peek... next week should give us a full spec breakdown.


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## vscd (Jan 30, 2015)

Sometimes I don't understand the customers... wanting a High Megapixel cam but ISO409600?  Haha. Of course you get ISO6400 with that small pixels... but if the sensor is a recent Sonysensor then you can easily Push it up to 2-3 stops. The H1/H2/H3 Modes will be quite clean I think.

Canon was aiming to high ISOs in the last few years, being way beyond their competitor from ISO800 and up... 

Now, increased Dynamic Range will come with decreased ISO. Really surprised? :


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

vscd said:


> Sometimes I don't understand the customers... wanting a High Megapixel cam but ISO409600?  Haha. Of course you get ISO6400 with that small pixels...



Those small pixels give us ISO 16,000 in the 7DII.


----------



## Jesse (Jan 30, 2015)

Alright, so... do I want the S or the S R?

Someone explain the difference!!


----------



## Don Haines (Jan 30, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> vscd said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes I don't understand the customers... wanting a High Megapixel cam but ISO409600?  Haha. Of course you get ISO6400 with that small pixels...
> ...



although we don't yet know if there is a H1 or H2 ISO setting... Too early to tell for sure, but not looking good....


----------



## vscd (Jan 30, 2015)

> Those small pixels give us ISO 16,000 in the 7DII.



No, the Pixels of the 7DM2 are larger. Should be anything equal to a D800 (36MP).

By the way...never wondered why ISO* 16000* is no real *full *stop in the exposure-line?  I guess the cam already pushed it internally. The 7DM2 is quite likely @ISO6400, also. But internally the newer Digic will push it 1.3 stops up...


----------



## dash2k8 (Jan 30, 2015)

Apart from the megapixel bump, it only looks like a minor improvement over the 5D3 on paper. Gotta have more "paper" stats to draw our attention. The 7D2 also had this problem. If anything it was under-marketed. Its specs were almost laughable for a latest-gen camera, but in practice the majority love it. Hope the same goes for these new 5Ds's.


----------



## Perio (Jan 30, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> vscd said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes I don't understand the customers... wanting a High Megapixel cam but ISO409600?  Haha. Of course you get ISO6400 with that small pixels...
> ...



I guess a part of the reason it goes to ISO 6400 is also to differentiate 5ds from coming 5div. If you shoot in studio or landscapes, get 5ds as you won't need higher ISO. If you need more speed and higher ISO, wait for 5div. One won't get everything in the same package


----------



## wsgroves (Jan 30, 2015)

So as it stands right this minute, the new 5ds will not do video? I hoped the flagship would do 4k with autofocus. I was in the market for a nice 4k camcorder and was waiting to see if it would be better to just upgrade my 5d3 to a do it all new model. Looks like that will have to wait for the 5d4?


----------



## Famateur (Jan 30, 2015)

dash2k8 said:


> Apart from the megapixel bump, it only looks like a minor improvement over the 5D3 on paper.



But that megapixel bump is the whole point of this camera (plus the stronger color filter for better color. That's why they called it a 5DS and not 5D Mark IV.


----------



## Don Haines (Jan 30, 2015)

vscd said:


> > Those small pixels give us ISO 16,000 in the 7DII.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A FF with the same pixel density as the 7D2 would have 20.2*1.6*1.6 Mpixels, or 51.7Mpixels. (Actually the 7D2 sensor is a hair bigger than APSC so the crop factor is slightly smaller, perhaps 1.58?) A crop factor of 1.583 would give you a 50.6Mpixel FF camera, so my suspicion is that the pixels are the exact same size as on the 7D2.....


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2015)

vscd said:


> > Those small pixels give us ISO 16,000 in the 7DII.
> 
> 
> 
> No, the Pixels of the 7DM2 are larger.



No, 20MP * 1.6*2 = 51.2MP - about the same.


----------



## overniven (Jan 30, 2015)

I for one am kind of excited to see what the new cameras bring. I'll hold my complaints until I see real world photos and confirmed specs. 50MP sure seems like Overkill for me, but so did 15MP when I bought my first digital SLR (T1i).

Lots of great cameras out there. Should be interesting to see where Canon goes. I've been debating about going FF for a while. More choices is always good.

Thanks for the coverage.


----------



## Famateur (Jan 30, 2015)

dolina said:


> Disappointments for me are...
> 
> AF system is not equal or exceeds those of the 7D Mark II
> ...
> No mention of 4K (which to me would justify it costing beyond $3,000)



It would seem to me that the "S" in 5DS is for Studio. Why would they put a top-of-the-line fast action AF system or 4K video in a studio camera with 50MP? The rumored 61-point (41 cross-type) AF system seems like plenty for studio and landscape.

If you want full frame with the 7DII or better AF system, you'll probably need to wait for the successor of the 1DX. If you don't want to go 1-series, I'm confident the 5D Mark IV will be a lot closer to what you're looking for.


----------



## Famateur (Jan 30, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Pesto said:
> 
> 
> > It seems to me that Canon has abandoned us EOS1D users...such a pitty.
> ...



You know, I said the same thing about my 70D when the SL1 came out...in white. My camera is still black, and the pictures show it! :


----------



## NancyP (Jan 30, 2015)

My G.A.S. just blew a gasket.....Existing 60D gets converted to full spectrum camera....Existing 6D keeps on doing general/ low light / astro.....possible 7D2 purchase for birding and sports.....possible Canon high-MP camera for landscapes. Want Sigma 50 Art, want 16-35 f/4 (less expensive) vs want TS-E 24 (more expensive, want 100 f/2.8L IS macro as a lighter weight option to my current 180 macro (which I love), and last but not least want a fast Big White that takes extenders - 500 f/4 or 600 f/4L IS II. 

I am The Scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz - if only I had a brain. I was blown away by how good the 60D was when I got it, my first non-toy digital camera. Then I was thrilled to have the 6D. I have some great lenses. My gear is so much better than I am, it is ridiculous. Basta!

I need to upgrade my brain. And my computer. And print more, and have "print of the week" posted at home and office. Spend money on photo books, seminars, trips to galleries, etc. And my one current GAS episode concerns learning to use flash effectively in nature photography (have a 580, cords, stand, am buying remote trigger, gridded snoot, mini-softbox, flag/reflector, gels, mini-reflector/diffuser (18") with a variety of covers, maybe later larger modifiers. I have been perusing the Syl Arena Speedlite handbook, a Joe McNally anecdotal book (Sketching the LIght), the gold-standard lighting text "Light Science and Magic". Time to start assigning myself some homework and learning to work a single speedlite. Then, two, then, three. (More gear purchases). The good thing is that a lot of the gear is cheap relative to lenses and bodies.


----------



## wockawocka (Jan 30, 2015)

What's with the CR guy saying it was reported on CR first?

There was nothing on the homepage for several hours. This post was but it was found on Northlight and Canonwatch were reporting it too.

Am I missing something?


----------



## Famateur (Jan 30, 2015)

If it's not clear to everyone by now (especially after the resolution vs. sensitivity interview), Canon appears to be segmenting their DSLR lineup to more deliberately cater to differing genres of photography:

> You have the 1DX (and successor) for the ultimate fast-action, low light, rough conditions camera.
> You'll (apparently) have a 5DS for high-detail, rich color studio/landscape work.
> You have the 5DIII (and likely a 5DIV) as the jack-of-all-trades event, portrait, wedding, video camera.
> You have the "my first full frame" 6D (and successor) with limited features but excellent image quality.
> You have the 7DII for the ultimate fast action, rough conditions camera with extra reach in lieu of top ISO.

My hunch is that (based on the philosophy behind the "X" in the 1DX moniker), we won't see any more segmentation in the 1 Series* -- at least for a while. Moving the "S" designation from the 1 Series to the 5 series seems to confirm that, to me.

Certainly, there will be some overlap in capability/needs with these genres, and those in between will be the ones to complain that the 50MP body doesn't go to a usable ISO 25,600 at 10+ frame per second, or that it doesn't do 4K with clean HDMI out, or...

It looks to me like Canon is saying, "If you want a camera for _________, get this body. If you want a camera for ______, get that body. If you need a camera that can do both, buy both bodies." 




* _I get that the 1DC is an exception to this. To me, the Cinema designation sets it apart in its own world. With the C-XXX dedicated video cameras and 4K likely coming to lower DSLR bodies, it would not surprise me if Canon does not make a successor to the 1DC. Who knows, though...all just fun speculation_.


----------



## Famateur (Jan 30, 2015)

NancyP said:


> My G.A.S. just blew a gasket.....Existing 60D gets converted to full spectrum camera....Existing 6D keeps on doing general/ low light / astro.....possible 7D2 purchase for birding and sports.....possible Canon high-MP camera for landscapes. Want Sigma 50 Art, want 16-35 f/4 (less expensive) vs want TS-E 24 (more expensive, want 100 f/2.8L IS macro as a lighter weight option to my current 180 macro (which I love), and last but not least want a fast Big White that takes extenders - 500 f/4 or 600 f/4L IS II.
> 
> I am The Scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz - if only I had a brain. I was blown away by how good the 60D was when I got it, my first non-toy digital camera. Then I was thrilled to have the 6D. I have some great lenses. My gear is so much better than I am, it is ridiculous. Basta!
> 
> I need to upgrade my brain. And my computer. And print more, and have "print of the week" posted at home and office. Spend money on photo books, seminars, trips to galleries, etc. And my one current GAS episode concerns learning to use flash effectively in nature photography (have a 580, cords, stand, am buying remote trigger, gridded snoot, mini-softbox, flag/reflector, gels, mini-reflector/diffuser (18") with a variety of covers, maybe later larger modifiers. I have been perusing the Syl Arena Speedlite handbook, a Joe McNally anecdotal book (Sketching the LIght), the gold-standard lighting text "Light Science and Magic". Time to start assigning myself some homework and learning to work a single speedlite. Then, two, then, three. (More gear purchases). The good thing is that a lot of the gear is cheap relative to lenses and bodies.



Your ailment might single-handedly bring the global economy back to health! 

Wouldn't it be great if your health insurance covered it? I might be onto something there...


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 30, 2015)

adhocphotographer said:


> Hmmmm... 5 fps... I do a lot of wildlife as well as everything else... 5fps is not quite there.... 6 is ok...
> 
> Lets see what it is like and the reviews! It is not as though i gun it all that much anyway!



I wonder if they allow it get 6fps in the 1.6x crop mode (or cheaped out and made the mirror box only 5fps capable, 5fps is quite good for the full 50MP, but it sure would be nice to get 6fps in crop mode, 5fps tends be just enough to not quite do it, although it's certainly better than 4; at the very least the crop mode would mean not wasting tons of storage space when shooting wildlife that you can't get close to which is nice).


----------



## ray5 (Jan 30, 2015)

NancyP said:


> My G.A.S. just blew a gasket.....Existing 60D gets converted to full spectrum camera....Existing 6D keeps on doing general/ low light / astro.....possible 7D2 purchase for birding and sports.....possible Canon high-MP camera for landscapes. Want Sigma 50 Art, want 16-35 f/4 (less expensive) vs want TS-E 24 (more expensive, want 100 f/2.8L IS macro as a lighter weight option to my current 180 macro (which I love), and last but not least want a fast Big White that takes extenders - 500 f/4 or 600 f/4L IS II.
> 
> I am The Scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz - if only I had a brain. I was blown away by how good the 60D was when I got it, my first non-toy digital camera. Then I was thrilled to have the 6D. I have some great lenses. My gear is so much better than I am, it is ridiculous. Basta!
> 
> I need to upgrade my brain. And my computer. And print more, and have "print of the week" posted at home and office. Spend money on photo books, seminars, trips to galleries, etc. And my one current GAS episode concerns learning to use flash effectively in nature photography (have a 580, cords, stand, am buying remote trigger, gridded snoot, mini-softbox, flag/reflector, gels, mini-reflector/diffuser (18") with a variety of covers, maybe later larger modifiers. I have been perusing the Syl Arena Speedlite handbook, a Joe McNally anecdotal book (Sketching the LIght), the gold-standard lighting text "Light Science and Magic". Time to start assigning myself some homework and learning to work a single speedlite. Then, two, then, three. (More gear purchases). The good thing is that a lot of the gear is cheap relative to lenses and bodies.



   
I laughed so hard I fell off my chair!!! I fully agree. But that bit about upgrading the brain was pure genius. That's exactly what I think I need to do. 
Cheers
Ray


----------



## Don Haines (Jan 30, 2015)

overniven said:


> I for one am kind of excited to see what the new cameras bring. I'll hold my complaints until I see real world photos and confirmed specs. 50MP sure seems like Overkill for me, but so did 15MP when I bought my first digital SLR (T1i).
> 
> Lots of great cameras out there. Should be interesting to see where Canon goes. I've been debating about going FF for a while. More choices is always good.
> 
> Thanks for the coverage.


I remember upgrading to an 8Mpixel camera and thinking "WOW! This is great!!!!" We live in great times for digital imaging.


----------



## NancyP (Jan 30, 2015)

Ray, pleased to amuse you!

Famateur: Well, Lumiquest III 9" x 8" vinyl/cardstock softbox is made in the USA, as are the Lastolite TriGrip/Flip diffuser frames (I think they may off-shore the sewing of the slipcovers that go over the diffusers), and the Lastolite diffusion/reflector fabrics may be USA-made. I don't know about the gels, I think that they are USA-made also. Rogue products - some made in China (flashbender?), some in USA (injection-molded snoot/grid). Books - written in USA, printed in USA. RF triggers/ receivers - cheap ($30.00/ pair) simple ones made in China. 

I think that our fantasy kit would boost the world economy some, the actual kit less so.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 30, 2015)

wockawocka said:


> I only have two questions:
> 
> Who made the sensor?
> 
> What's the dynamic range?



Yeah.

If it has Canon DR and with the only 5fps and no improved video and no 4k then FORGET IT! It is a only a pseudo jack of all trades and not even close to a master of anything. I'd still rather use 36MP Nikon/Sony for landscapes to get the much better DR than just get the extra 14MP. The 5D3 with RAW video would surely take better 1080P and the Sony A7S does 4k. The 5fps max would be just slow enough to not quite be really comfortable for action. I surely couldn't see myself getting it. I'd get double the MP over my 5D3 but not one thing more and even go backwards for video and fps. Not for me. No way, no how.


OTOH, if it has Exmor DR and with the 50MP giving great landscape detail and fantastic reach for wildlife and 5fps and cropped mode to save space when doing wildlife.... then it becomes much more interesting. 

And if it manages that plus 6fps in cropped mode then it becomes super interesting and it's one heck of a heck of a stills camera, really just about totally ideal for a low ISO aimed one (maybe the high iso is a trace weak as a compromise for ideal low ISO colors) and again other than the high ISO SNR basically the ideal all around stills cam (and it's probably decent enough with the SNR).

It would be feeble enough for video that you'd still need to spend and carry more, but as a stills cam.... nice and probably enough so to live with the video having to be gotten elsewhere. The costs in total would start becoming uncomfortable :'(, but I guess that's how it would go.

So yeah much remains to be seen. 

IMO it could be a disaster of a still cam release or getting close to an ideal stills cam (fully there if it did manage 6fps in cropped mode).

Sounds like it will be a turd for video, but if the stills is truly top in every way maybe it doesn't entirely matter.


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Jan 31, 2015)

Know what would be neat? Maybe magic lantern can do this...

If the 5Ds used the AF point to auto crop the image. That way when shooting something like birds, the FPS could go up, AND you would not have to be stuck with the center of the frame. The center of the cropped area would always be right over the focus point for 1.3 or 1.6x. That way if a bird goes into the other portions of the frame you are less likely to lose a body part due to the cropping. 

Also, if the metering is good enough to track objects, it could have a fail-safe mode where if the whole subject goes out of the crop area, it reverts back to a full frame capture for that image!

Canon really needs to hire me as a product designer! This would be a brilliant feature!


----------



## vscd (Jan 31, 2015)

> A FF with the same pixel density as the 7D2 would have 20.2*1.6*1.6 Mpixels, or 51.7Mpixels. (Actually the 7D2 sensor is a hair bigger than APSC so the crop factor is slightly smaller, perhaps 1.58?) A crop factor of 1.583 would give you a 50.6Mpixel FF camera, so my suspicion is that the pixels are the exact same size as on the 7D2.....



OK, then maybe a hint to global shutter? Readout of a global shutter is told to be slower


----------



## Famateur (Jan 31, 2015)

NancyP said:


> Ray, pleased to amuse you!
> 
> Famateur: Well, Lumiquest III 9" x 8" vinyl/cardstock softbox is made in the USA, as are the Lastolite TriGrip/Flip diffuser frames (I think they may off-shore the sewing of the slipcovers that go over the diffusers), and the Lastolite diffusion/reflector fabrics may be USA-made. I don't know about the gels, I think that they are USA-made also. Rogue products - some made in China (flashbender?), some in USA (injection-molded snoot/grid). Books - written in USA, printed in USA. RF triggers/ receivers - cheap ($30.00/ pair) simple ones made in China.
> 
> I think that our fantasy kit would boost the world economy some, the actual kit less so.



Being in the USA myself, I'm fine with boosting the global American economy. 8)


----------



## Famateur (Jan 31, 2015)

ray5 said:


> NancyP said:
> 
> 
> > My G.A.S. just blew a gasket...
> ...



That's easy enough with a firmware upgrade.


----------



## Famateur (Jan 31, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> I remember upgrading to an 8Mpixel camera and thinking "WOW! This is great!!!!" We live in great times for digital imaging.



Amen to that!


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2015)

dilbert said:


> So a 30MP 1.3x mode and a 20MP 1.6x mode.
> 
> Comes packed with "extra reach" for birders



very nice

I wonder why they don't give these modes a fps burst like Nikon does though? Nikon hits the critical 6fps in the cropped modes. Now a fast FF mirror box is expensive, but surely they could at least put a 6fps 5D3-class mirror box in there and easily drive 20MP crop mode at 6fps no? I mean the processor wouldn't even sweat, it has so much more power than a 5D3 which already drives 23MP at 6fps.

Of course the details might not be complete, maybe it does??


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2015)

Kairumorman said:


> traveller said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like the rumours of a Sony-Canon 50MP sensor are true, even SAR states that one of his 'trusted sources' confirms this and SAR is a bit of a mouthpiece for Sony's marketing department to build hype.
> ...



Wow, you're pretty cool!


----------



## Famateur (Jan 31, 2015)

Just pondering on the ISO 6400 rumor for the 5DS...

I wonder if the explanation of the stronger color filter being the reason is just what the public is supposed to know. It wouldn't surprise me if it was a limitation built into the firmware (or even hardware), for product differentiation purposes, and not an actual limitation of the sensor itself.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2015)

scyrene said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't say anything about a battery either, so does this mean we have to plug it into the wall? Damn.... And nothing about a warranty either. I guess Canon gave up on those too along with viewfinders.
> ...



Yeah they might just be rating it on how it is using all 50MP, but if comparing at the same scale as 5D3 maybe it's the same or like only 1/3 stop worse (no big deal at all).


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2015)

torger said:


> On the topic "which version to get" that is with or without AA filter, it will depend if you care about pixel peep crispness or _real_ image quality. AA filter is a good idea, sure it will reduce crispness but also take away most false colors and aliasing, and moire. Diffraction won't kill aliasing fully until you're up at f/16, so yes AA filter is the way to go.
> 
> But what will happen of course is that people will prefer pixel peep crispness over aliasing, jaggies, moire (because most don't really know about these issues or choose to ignore them) and buy the 5DsR and the next high res camera will only exist without AA filter, that was the case with the D800 and I think the same will happen here.



+1


----------



## Machaon (Jan 31, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> If it has Canon DR and with the only 5fps and no improved video and no 4k then FORGET IT! It is a only a pseudo jack of all trades and not even close to a master of anything.



I don't think anyone is promoting this camera as "jack of all trades". It seems to be designed as a master of well-lit studio, daylight and still life applications.

Demanding high frame rate and video out of that sort of camera is like expecting similar from digital medium format.

I'm sure that Canon will step up to the plate with an all-rounder in the EOS 5D IV come August... Like you, I wait in fond anticipation.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Hmmmm.... CanonWatch has updated their post on this to reflect a CW# rating on the fact that the sensor has been made by Canon. Not Sony. Hmmm... the plot thickens ;-)



oh no   :'( :-\ :'(

just gotta hope they are wrong or they are using a new fab somehow....


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2015)

Machaon said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > If it has Canon DR and with the only 5fps and no improved video and no 4k then FORGET IT! It is a only a pseudo jack of all trades and not even close to a master of anything.
> ...



That's exactly what people said about the 5D Mark II. And they were wrong.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2015)

Quackator said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > What does the "R" stand for?
> ...



moiRE + moRe aliasing


----------



## Famateur (Jan 31, 2015)

Machaon said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > If it has Canon DR and with the only 5fps and no improved video and no 4k then FORGET IT! It is a only a pseudo jack of all trades and not even close to a master of anything.
> ...



Agreed. Otherwise, why put an "S" as the model designation?


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2015)

Famateur said:


> Why would they put a top-of-the-line fast action AF system or 4K video in a studio camera with 50MP?



Because 4k video is big for landscape video and wildlife video work, things to which this camera is well suited (depending).

Of course there might be technical issues getting video out of 50MP (you;d think you could do the same 5D3 on chip video binning though and get 4k out of it though).

Since the video on it seems to be a joke, let's hope the stills are grand slam (exmor DR at worst, top color, at least 6fps in cropped modes, AF at least as good as in 5D3).


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2015)

Machaon said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > If it has Canon DR and with the only 5fps and no improved video and no 4k then FORGET IT! It is a only a pseudo jack of all trades and not even close to a master of anything.
> ...




yes but if it has Canon DR then it's not a master of studio/landscape stuff, especially not the latter

I'd rather use 36MP Exmor for that stuff than just 14MP more and worse DR.


----------



## Famateur (Jan 31, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > Why would they put a top-of-the-line fast action AF system or 4K video in a studio camera with 50MP?
> ...



It's probably reasonable to suspect that the video side will be lacking since if it will have 4K, it would likely be in the rumor. Still, I would consider video features to be unannounced _and _unrumored. If it is lacking, then I agree -- let's hope the stills performance (for its studio/landscape market) is a grand slam.


----------



## Famateur (Jan 31, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Machaon said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



Not holding my breath, but if the rumor that it's a Canon sensor from a new process is true, we could be pleasantly surprised on the dynamic range front...


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 31, 2015)

Famateur said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > I'd rather use 36MP Exmor for that stuff than just 14MP more and worse DR.
> ...



Canon increasing dr *and* res significantly at the same time? "Oink oink flap flap"


----------



## 2cool4games (Jan 31, 2015)

They need this camera to have 4k video.. And if the 5D Mark IV comes out... It needs the same... 4k video!!!! Man!

That would be awesome.


----------



## Kahuna (Jan 31, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



So no confidence in Canon .. what's keeping you around? 

Edit: Don't bother with a response...good night and good luck finding that magical camera that does everything you need or think you need.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 31, 2015)

Kahuna said:


> So no confidence in Canon .. what's keeping you around?



I dunno if you realize - but photography doesn't equal lingering for new gear, it's about making do with what you have since there will always be limitations. I know this is irritating to a fanboi, but as a Canon shooter of 3 decades I feel free not to get overwhelmed by rumors, even if it's a nice pastime while my LR is plenty busy trying to cope with my 20mp files 



Kahuna said:


> Edit: Don't bother with a response...



*snigger* hey, see, there's always something new 'round here - I don't remember reading a trollish poster asking not to reply . Good night to you, might your dreams be in high definition.


----------



## Kahuna (Jan 31, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Kahuna said:
> 
> 
> > So no confidence in Canon .. what's keeping you around?
> ...



Troll ... Nope but you should look in the mirror.. Wasn't happy with Canon and made my decision to move on and went to a camera that meets my needs very nicely (Pentac 645Z). Happy as I could ever be... suggest the same for you cuz its gonna take more than pigs flying to meet your needs.... good night and good luck.


----------



## Gcon (Jan 31, 2015)

My best guess is that there is some sort of collaboration between Sony and Canon to get economies of scale and share the same 50MP sensor.
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-trusted-source-i-am-99-sure-the-new-a7rii-is-coming-with-50mp-sensor/

This will put Canon back in the high MP and high DR game.

I doubt it will have dual pixel. Standard live view is fine for landscape, and I assume studio work. I can imagine dual-pixel being used in the 5DIV, but not 5Ds / 5DsR.

As for GPS - assume that will be a bolt on extra - as studio people don't really need it, and allows Canon to extract more funds from people who really do need it. I will be pleasantly surprised if it's built in but at this stage - I doubt it. Same goes for wifi but opposite reasons - something that's more for the studio (wireless tethering) than the landscape crowd, although wifi to smartphone is handy for the landscape bloggers, but not a must-have in my view.

Intervalometer / bulb I think was always a given as it's a pure software tweak, and that it had appeared on the 7DII. Good.

Focus peaking / zerbras. A real shame if that doesn't go into this camera. I really really would like to see peaking and exposure zerbras, as it's a software tweak so well do-able. I'm 50/50 as to whether they will put it in or not. If magic lantern can do it - then so can Canon!


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2015)

Famateur said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Machaon said:
> ...



Famateur, having read the last few pages of all your posts, I have to say you're one of the few on here who really gets it. Canon has obviously created a whole new line up to suit each professional need. There won't be 4k on the 5Ds because it's not meant for that. My prediction is that we see a 1DX2 before the 5D4. Both of these rigs will have 4K. The 1DC just got a $4000 price drop. It's now $7999. Releasing a new 1DX2 also at $7k+ makes no sense with a 1DC at the same price. The 1DC is being phased out I bet. The 1DX and 1DC will become the 1DX2. A 1DC now is nothing more than exactly a 1DX with 4k added. If a 1DX2 comes out with DPAF...which it most assuredly will... A 1DC is suddenly a bit of a dog. What I think we will get at the end of the summer is an all around 25mp ish 5D4 and 20.2MP 1DX2 both with DPAF and 4k capability with the 1DX2 blasting 14FPS, some obscene number of AF points spread wide across the frame and fabulous low light high ISO ability along with the full time video AF features in the 7D2 and maybe even a Real audio preamp for mic input.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> There won't be 4k on the 5Ds because it's not meant for that.



Why not? How was the 1DC more meant for it?
If anything a high DR landscape/wildlife cam matches more to 4k than an ultra-speed brick action/sports body.

How are any of the DSLR meant or not meant for 4k?

Only if their is a tech reason can you say it was not meant for it (maybe there was, maybe not, you certainly can't likely expect a full sensor read from the 50MP cam for video, but a on chip bin mode like 5D3 seems like it could have worked, although I can't know for sure, perhaps not as maybe it is a Sony chip and Sony didn't make with binned 4k and Canon wanted a high DR camera and couldn't make one themselves and there you have it high DR amazing stills but no 4k??).


----------



## rrcphoto (Jan 31, 2015)

Hmm I see all the eeyore's have weighed in on this thread already.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > There won't be 4k on the 5Ds because it's not meant for that.
> ...



Don't need a tech reason. It's a model line up reason. This is looking like a studio stills machine. With a separate 5D4 coming later, it seems to make more sense to drop 4k into your all-around machine... Because then they can sell it at 3500-4000 just like the 5DS will probably be and have that major distinction to justify the pricie strategy? I'm guessing my friend


----------



## rrcphoto (Jan 31, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > There won't be 4k on the 5Ds because it's not meant for that.
> ...


yawn.
the A7II has no 4K . heck even the A7S has no internal 4K.
the A7R has no 4K.
the D750, D810, D4s, D610 has no 4k.
do you see where I'm going here? and some of these cameras are even brand spanking new.


----------



## rrcphoto (Jan 31, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > PureClassA said:
> ...



agreed - not to mention;

Some could actually think and go - hmm line skipping a 50Mp sensor would be HELL and horrid with tons of artifacts.
And then they could also go .. hmm. binning each frame in firmware for 4k output would be insane on processing.

but no.. can't have logic and common sense


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2015)

rrcphoto said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > PureClassA said:
> ...



And you hit the nail to my point. The a7r and a7s released at the same price. One did high res, one did superb video at 4k (lack of internal recording was a physical design constraint..but it CAN do it). So here comes Canon. We have a high res 5 body and (perhaps) a 4k body in a subsequent 5D4 that is ALSO a fantastic all around camera that CAN record internally 4k... If both are $4k then that is the same price as an a7s plus Shogun.


----------



## gecko (Jan 31, 2015)

Looking forward to the inevitable 5Ds vs 645z shoot-out. ;D


----------



## RLPhoto (Jan 31, 2015)

The true specs will decide but looking at those specs it's very meh.


----------



## gecko (Jan 31, 2015)

RLPhoto said:


> The true specs will decide but looking at those specs it's very meh.



Beauty is in the eye of the be holder - I'd get one in a flash.


----------



## rrcphoto (Jan 31, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



canon obviously has the capability of doing internal 4K, since they were the first to do it in an SLR/ILC.

and it makes far more sense to have this on the more general purpose body that started the DLSR video revolution than it would a studio camera.

However I'm pinning it down to eeyore syndrome .. some just can be happy with anything.


----------



## Fr3nzy Photography (Jan 31, 2015)

gecko said:


> Looking forward to the inevitable 5Ds vs 645z shoot-out. ;D



As my first post (been reading for about a year or two), this is what I am certainly looking for. I've been looking to step to MF for my landscapes for a bit now, and was heavily considering a 645D since they've come down in price a bit. Plus I read some reviews that had it ahead of Nikon's D810 (might have been the D800E, I don't remember 100%) when it came to large prints - think 24"x32" and up. That's not to say that Nikon's didn't perform well, and if this beast of a 5Ds comes in and that mark or higher, I'm in. I'd love to get close to MF quality without having to break the bank and build any entirely separate system.


----------



## 9VIII (Jan 31, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> torger said:
> 
> 
> > On the topic "which version to get" that is with or without AA filter, it will depend if you care about pixel peep crispness or _real_ image quality. AA filter is a good idea, sure it will reduce crispness but also take away most false colors and aliasing, and moire. Diffraction won't kill aliasing fully until you're up at f/16, so yes AA filter is the way to go.
> ...



Just use Sunny 16!
And f11 should still mostly work, I've been using f16 and f22 in most of my macro shots lately anyway. If you know about the problem then the solution is easy.
Hopefully we'll see some Gigapixel cameras soon, then we could shoot moire free all way up to f2.8! At that point lens resolution might take care of the problem anyway.


----------



## LovePhotography (Jan 31, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> lintoni said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Dilbert, have you forgotten the oath you took when you signed up for this chat room to only "tell the truth and nothing but the truth"?
Heaven forbid somebody say something inaccurate in casual conversation, not when The Punisher is on the lookout. Remember, you're under oath.
Shame on you.


----------



## LovePhotography (Jan 31, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> It doesn't say anything about a battery either, so does this mean we have to plug it into the wall? Damn.... And nothing about a warranty either. I guess Canon gave up on those too along with viewfinders.
> 
> Think I'll wait for the official (and complete) spec list before I start bemoaning these cameras ;D



+1


----------



## LovePhotography (Jan 31, 2015)

torger said:


> On the topic "which version to get" that is with or without AA filter, it will depend if you care about pixel peep crispness or _real_ image quality. AA filter is a good idea, sure it will reduce crispness but also take away most false colors and aliasing, and moire. Diffraction won't kill aliasing fully until you're up at f/16, so yes AA filter is the way to go.
> 
> But what will happen of course is that people will prefer pixel peep crispness over aliasing, jaggies, moire (because most don't really know about these issues or choose to ignore them) and buy the 5DsR and the next high res camera will only exist without AA filter, that was the case with the D800 and I think the same will happen here.



So, which software is best at correcting moire, etc?

I think only one of these will survive more than a year or two. Like Blue Ray vs (whatever that other was called) Betamax vs VHS, etc...


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > PureClassA said:
> ...



still makes no sense, assuming of course there wasn't some tech reason like say it is Sony chip and it happens to not bin for video and that is that and they wanted to get us more DR and this was the only way, in that case it makes plenty of sense, otherwise not so much


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2015)

rrcphoto said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > PureClassA said:
> ...



so lots of other new stuff does and plenty more later this year
and you want to be a leader not a total follower

but if they at least get every bit of stills top notch....


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2015)

rrcphoto said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



you bin in HW not firmware, what good is firmware binning? at that point it means you had to have been able to read the entire sensor every frame so why even bin then if that was possible?

and the 5D3 bins 23MP so why three years later is 2x the bin crazy?

I mean maybe it turns out with how they make their chips it can't handle heat or whatnot of even a little more binning or mayne it's some thrid party chip thta just doesn't do it and that would make sense.


----------



## PerfectSavage (Jan 31, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



Sounds like you need an A7S and Shogun, STAT, then! Get on it! 99% of those who will buy the 5Ds have no interest in video....and 100% of that 1% will have no use for 4K...just as most who own 4K cameras don't.


----------



## eninja (Jan 31, 2015)

AA said:


> Hmmm, still no features like:
> - touch screen
> - GPS
> - Wi-Fi
> ...



only amateurs NEED those features.


----------



## Famateur (Jan 31, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



Love the image, but there's just not enough dynamic range in the scene to impress me. Maybe if you had shot it directly into the sun... 

Seriously, though...you may be right. It feels nice to hope, though, even if it might be a little naive.


----------



## Famateur (Jan 31, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Famateur, having read the last few pages of all your posts, I have to say you're one of the few on here who really gets it. Canon has obviously created a whole new line up to suit each professional need. There won't be 4k on the 5Ds because it's not meant for that. My prediction is that we see a 1DX2 before the 5D4. Both of these rigs will have 4K. The 1DC just got a $4000 price drop. It's now $7999. Releasing a new 1DX2 also at $7k+ makes no sense with a 1DC at the same price. The 1DC is being phased out I bet. The 1DX and 1DC will become the 1DX2. A 1DC now is nothing more than exactly a 1DX with 4k added. If a 1DX2 comes out with DPAF...which it most assuredly will... A 1DC is suddenly a bit of a dog. What I think we will get at the end of the summer is an all around 25mp ish 5D4 and 20.2MP 1DX2 both with DPAF and 4k capability with the 1DX2 blasting 14FPS, some obscene number of AF points spread wide across the frame and fabulous low light high ISO ability along with the full time video AF features in the 7D2 and maybe even a Real audio preamp for mic input.



Thanks...it's fun trying to piece everything together from a combination of legitimate clues and wild speculation. 

Your thoughts on the fate of the 1DC are interesting -- the price drop sure seems to be a signal that they could make a major change in the Cinema line.

One thing is sure: Canon is making a move, and that's exciting (to me, anyway). There will be plenty who complain about the move, no matter which way it goes, but I'm still excited.


----------



## K (Jan 31, 2015)

This camera is obviously for landscape and studio work. Remember that canon isn't a body...its a system. With the latest L lenses being sharper than nikon, and 50 mp... We should see some amazing results. If the rumors are true about lack of video features..that further confirms this is a landscape and studio machine. No one uses even 1600 ISO in studio or landscapes. Why all the fuss. Wait for the 5d4 to complain about iso when those specs arrive.


----------



## PhilA (Jan 31, 2015)

K said:


> This camera is obviously for landscape and studio work. Remember that canon isn't a body...its a system. With the latest L lenses being sharper than nikon, and 50 mp... We should see some amazing results. If the rumors are true about lack of video features..that further confirms this is a landscape and studio machine. No one uses even 1600 ISO in studio or landscapes. Why all the fuss. Wait for the 5d4 to complain about iso when those specs arrive.



+1. This will be my 1Ds Mk III replacement for studio and landscape work. Continue using the 1Dx for action. Not interested in video. All good! ;D


----------



## sanj (Jan 31, 2015)

gecko said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > The true specs will decide but looking at those specs it's very meh.
> ...



Me too… Will order as soon as I decide between the S or normal.


----------



## Spiros Zaharakis (Jan 31, 2015)

[/quote]
100% of that 1% will have no use for 4K...just as most who own 4K cameras don't.
[/quote]
You obviously have no clue about video.


----------



## K (Jan 31, 2015)

PhilA said:


> K said:
> 
> 
> > This camera is obviously for landscape and studio work. Remember that canon isn't a body...its a system. With the latest L lenses being sharper than nikon, and 50 mp... We should see some amazing results. If the rumors are true about lack of video features..that further confirms this is a landscape and studio machine. No one uses even 1600 ISO in studio or landscapes. Why all the fuss. Wait for the 5d4 to complain about iso when those specs arrive.
> ...






I have no interest in video either, but I'm not interested in high megapixel since I don't focus on landscape work. The massive 55+ mb files from this thing is a workflow concern for me, and this is still considering I have high end computer gear. I'm one of those people that will wait for the 5D4 "event" camera. I think this thing could be the landscape king, and a "poor man's medium format" for the studio.

I mentioned in a previous post the desire for a crop mode. This is great news, but I doubt it will come with any if much FPS increase. The rumored ISO level is not good for events. I'm one of those people that takes whatever is advertised by Canon/Nikon as the highest "native" ISO, and I reduce it by 1 or 2 stops and then consider that to be the minimally useful quality. Example, if 6400 is the max, 3200 is probably the max useful ISO on the camera. 

But again, I can't complain about a camera not designed or marketed toward users like myself. This thing sounds great for the target market, the same exact way the 7D2 incredible for its target market. Canon's product road map looks better than ever - they seem to be really creating cameras to please the various types of pro-level DSLR users. 


I will say this though - I'm extremely eager to see the results of this 50mp sensor.

I know for a fact that the Canon 24-70 II on both the 20.2mp 6D and 22.3mp 5D3 out resolves the Nikon 24-70 on all Nikon 24mp FF bodies. The Nikon has the MP advantage and newer tech advantage on sensor - it should stand to reason that there is nothing holding back their 24-70 for and apples to apples. It is Canon with the mp disadvantage.

This is an indication that current Canon sensors cannot take advantage of the improved optical quality of the newest L lenses like the 24-70, 70-200, 16-35...No sensor is ever 100% efficient or gives its full resolution, but I anticipate that there is a significant amount of unused potential in the latest L lenses we haven't been able to see yet.


----------



## GuyF (Jan 31, 2015)

Fr3nzy Photography said:


> gecko said:
> 
> 
> > Looking forward to the inevitable 5Ds vs 645z shoot-out. ;D
> ...



I'd love to go medium format - images often look so "velvety" (if you get my meaning), excellent colours, tonal definition etc. etc. But I wonder how many people will read the 50mp headline in the forthcoming adverts and expect the new 5Ds to go toe to toe with MF sensors? I think they'll be in for a shock when they see what lots of tiny photosites on a full-frame sensor give you when compared to the same number on a MF sensor.

I think someone's gonna be disappointed!


----------



## Light_Pilgrim (Jan 31, 2015)

Many people notice that it is going to be a camera designed for landscape and portrait/studio photographers. It is obvious that Canon is trying to give the best possible tool to this specific segment of photographers. Why other people complain that it is not a camera for them? Do not think about yourself only, try to be happy that landscape and studio photographers are getting a superb camera body. 

There different types of cars:
1. Family vans
2. SUVs
3. Coupes
4. Sedans
5. Small city cars
6. Big tracks
7. Hypercars

Do you complain that you cannot pull a trailer with Ferrari Italia? 
Do you expect dodge ram to have the same gas consumption as Toyota Yaris?

Silly right?

This is how it looks. It is a camera designed to suit a specific segment. Accept it. There will be a camera for you if you are not into landscape or studio. I am extremely happy to see this announcement.


----------



## sanj (Jan 31, 2015)

cliffwang said:


> Not excited. ISO 6400 camera is not for me. Where is 5D MK4?



Really? Hmmm


----------



## gecko (Jan 31, 2015)

sanj said:


> cliffwang said:
> 
> 
> > Not excited. ISO 6400 camera is not for me. Where is 5D MK4?
> ...



I'm looking fr landscape camera with a squillionty megapickles and 50 frames/sec.

Srly - i'd be very happy, with ISO 25-1600.


----------



## K (Jan 31, 2015)

Canon has no doubt in my mind been losing sales to Nikon for that market segment who shops based off of printed specs. This is your high end techno-enthusiast spenders. I think these folks are underestimated in the market place. There's a lot of them out there and they are willing to spend on toys.


This 50mp camera is Canon's way to one-up Nikon. 

Do these megapixels translate to better image quality? Yes and no. It depends on what you want to do. 

I would bet that the majority of enthusiasts out there simply get personal pleasure from pixel peeping and admiring the technical quality of the equipment on their computer.

I say this because one can ONLY appreciate such high megapixel resolution on a PC at 1:1. You cannot appreciate it on the web, nor in print unless you're creating a giant poster, mural or billboard. You can't even full screen the image of a 5D3 at 1:1 on the latest 4K monitors!!! Think about that. To see all the pixels and detail, there's no monitor out there that can show you the whole image AND the full detail at the same time. You have to choose, full detail and just look at part of the image, or the whole image with less detail. Or you can just wait for 8K monitors....


The only advantage at all is cropping. Having more resolution to still yield a decent image after a severe crop. But that opens a whole other discussion. Cropping is generally inferior to using a proper focal length. It is at times a lot more convenient than swapping lenses. Or a necessity if you just don't own the needed focal length for a proper shot.

Real landscape guys and commercial studio guys will take advantage, since the real ones do print and they print huge or sell to clients who plan to print huge.



Figure this, at 50mp, will it be the equal of a Hasselblad? No way. Pixel size does matter. Larger ones are typically better, but when you are constrained by 35mm format, fitting more means making them smaller. Increases in resolution comes at the cost of smaller pixels. Thus, smaller pixels will have to become more efficient and accurate. The rumored 6400 ISO is an indication that efficiency wasn't increased much at all - they're just putting out high mega pixel count.


At some point Canon was going to have to deal with the realities of marketing and the market itself. They have been being beat up by the number 36 over and over. Hanging over their heads as the monument that they are not top dog. 

To those who take the time to learn, they know the truth is more complicated. It is hard to overcome THE specification that has been the spotlight of digital photography since the beginning with a reputation for great image quality. It is always the number that sticks out. It is always the number which is the measure.

Now Canon has 50. Big 50. Nope, not the rumored 46...a wimpier looking number. But big bold 50mp to be king of the hill again.


----------



## Perio (Jan 31, 2015)

I'm still wondering whether or not the sensor in 5ds will be made by Sony. I remember 100+ MP APS-H sensor rumored to be developed by Canon quite a while ago. Is there a way to modify this sensor to use for full frame cameras? And if it's a Sony's sensor, I'd love to see DxO report on 5ds 

Also, what would be (and is there?) theoretical limit of megapixels in full frame sensors?


----------



## donn (Jan 31, 2015)

Excited for the actual announcement and the actual specs... And if it's a good performer on high ISO, I'll get one if the price is not higher than $4000!


----------



## Maiaibing (Jan 31, 2015)

K said:


> The only advantage at all is cropping. Having more resolution to still yield a decent image after a severe crop. But that opens a whole other discussion. Cropping is generally inferior to using a proper focal length.



You forget to imagine the possible needs of others. 

I have lenses to shoot anything. However, I do a lot of targeted street photography where I cannot control any of the surrounding circumstances. Cars and people get in my way. Disturbing backgrounds popping up from nowhere. Unruly pedestrians wanting to pass me during a shot. Good scenes appearing and disappearing in an instant. 

Cropping is an essential way to help me focus those shots on what I want to show and get rid of all the urban "noise". A ruined full body shot can thus often be saved by cropping the picture into a close portrait shot in stead.

I am sure others also have their reasons to crop a lot regardless of arming themselves with the "right" tool for the right job. Not all of us have the luxury of having control over our subject and surroundings.


----------



## SPL (Jan 31, 2015)

K said:


> This camera is obviously for landscape and studio work. Remember that canon isn't a body...its a system. With the latest L lenses being sharper than nikon, and 50 mp... We should see some amazing results. If the rumors are true about lack of video features..that further confirms this is a landscape and studio machine. No one uses even 1600 ISO in studio or landscapes. Why all the fuss. Wait for the 5d4 to complain about iso when those specs arrive.


+1!
I'm very interested, very interested!


----------



## wockawocka (Jan 31, 2015)

I can see the 5Dr and 5Ds being a Canon sensor with those limits. 6400 ISO might be Ug-ly though.

But the 5D4, if a Sony sensor, would be spectacular.

I'm already at 50mp with the 645z, but will probably go with a 5Dr to replace my 5D3 for the interim. Providing 6400 is comparable or better than the 5D3. I'm kinda happy with the 1DX ISO6400, so if the 5Dr has an increase in ISO it'll be a welcome swap.


----------



## Orangutan (Jan 31, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> *Unruly* pedestrians



Unruly: I do not think it means what you think it means. If you're getting in the way of free flowing traffic (pedestrian or mechanical) then it is you who are unruly. Perhaps the word you are looking for is "indignant," "perturbed," "hindered" or "vexed."


----------



## takesome1 (Jan 31, 2015)

Orangutan said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > *Unruly* pedestrians
> ...



I think he used it correctly. Pedestrians are components of the landscape / streetscape and are difficult to control.
You have made the assumption that the pedestrians wishes, destination, wants, desires, convenience or feelings matter. Obviously this is a perspective issue.


----------



## Orangutan (Jan 31, 2015)

takesome1 said:



> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 31, 2015)

Orangutan said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > *Unruly* pedestrians
> ...



Inconceivable!


----------



## SPL (Jan 31, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...


+1
Hilarious


----------



## Maiaibing (Jan 31, 2015)

Orangutan said:


> Unruly: I do not think it means what you think it means. If you're getting in the way of free flowing traffic (pedestrian or mechanical) then it is you who are unruly. Perhaps the word you are looking for is "indignant," "perturbed," "hindered" or "vexed."



Quite some imaginative suggestions here and elsewhere. Unfortunately the truth is mundane as I don't really ever get in the way of any pedestrians while shooting. 

I use unruly as in "uncontrollable" i.e. not being able to control the flow of others who then upset the scenes I hope to capture. Which according to the dictionary is a correct use of the word.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Jan 31, 2015)

With the differences in sensor and pixel pitch like we have seen with Sony with the A7, A7R, A7S driving the best out of the lenses will be interesting. A matched system will want to strive to have the best nyquist outcome and oversampling in video will become the norm as UHD and SuperUHD become the reality of technology. Oversampling of a native 4K image actually provides for a clean 2K image so to have a clean 4K image you need 8K. Oversampling however requires huge amounts of data to be processed which is why the 50.6MP Canon sensor is limited to 5fps any higher will likely mean using an FPGA/s and generating more heat which a weather-proofed body will trap inside. 
So Im not suprised that the Canon 5dMKIV will likely be a smaller MP sensor if its going to be 4K however to move it on from Canon current 4K offerings it will need to adopt H.265 (HEVC) with up to 50Mbs data rate and REC.2020 this will be the minimum new 4K Bluray standard.


----------



## mb66energy (Jan 31, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> K said:
> 
> 
> > The only advantage at all is cropping. Having more resolution to still yield a decent image after a severe crop. But that opens a whole other discussion. Cropping is generally inferior to using a proper focal length.
> ...



Well spoken - there is a lack of "open mindedness" in our world ...

I see a lot of applications for 50MPix:

"One shot" panoramic photos without stitching -- let's think about a scene with moving objects (or subjects)
Possibility for downsampling to get cleaner images e.g. for monochromatic light sources
Use "THE IMAGE" for a really large wall mounted image (2x3m or so) if it occurs to you ...
Creating overview + detail shots in ONE image (landscapes, macro, ...)

The only thing I would really like: If you decide an image is cropped to e.g. 10 MPix or downsampled to e.g. 18 MPix it would be nice to save the result as raw image with reduced image size (and file size)!

I am not shure I will buy such a 50 MPix beast but I am at least very interested -- it too depends on estimates of future development of displays. As a fresh owner of an Ultra HD display (500 Euro/$ TV-Set [900Euro MSRP]) I am really excited to view my 10 year old images shot with EOS 20D near native resolution -- and I think they will go 8k in the next decade (at least to have reasons to sell new products ...). So I would like to be prepared.


----------



## mjardeen (Jan 31, 2015)

The number of morons attacking this camera for not having higher frame rates, 4K, or higher ISO is pretty amusing.

This is the camera for the rest of us who have felt ignored by Canon in its rush to Video. Studio and Landscape artist have been staring at the Nikon 8xx and the Sony A7r with sad eyes as they went out to shoot with their Canons. My concern is price. I might consider this but Weight and size is impacting my older arms. For this reason I am likley to go to the A7II and the soon to be announced A7rII or A9.

For those of you complaining wait for the 5DmIV -- that will have higher frame rates, really high ISO, 4K, at around 24mp (my guess). I think that one will have a SONY/Canon sensor that Nikon will not get.


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Jan 31, 2015)

mjardeen said:


> The number of morons attacking this camera for not having higher frame rates, 4K, or higher ISO is pretty amusing.
> 
> This is the camera for the rest of us who have felt ignored by Canon in its rush to Video. Studio and Landscape artist have been staring at the Nikon 8xx and the Sony A7r with sad eyes as they went out to shoot with their Canons. My concern is price. I might consider this but Weight and size is impacting my older arms. For this reason I am likley to go to the A7II and the soon to be announced A7rII or A9.
> 
> For those of you complaining wait for the 5DmIV -- that will have higher frame rates, really high ISO, 4K, at around 24mp (my guess). I think that one will have a SONY/Canon sensor that Nikon will not get.



They're probably envious like a child who's sibling is getting cool presents on their birthday, while they get nothing for a few months until their birthday comes around.

Or it could also be like Christmas where one kid get what he wanted, as the other gets socks and ugly sweaters from grandma. 

It can only be explained in terms of childishness, don't you think? haha!


----------



## jrista (Jan 31, 2015)

mjardeen said:


> The number of morons attacking this camera for not having higher frame rates, 4K, or higher ISO is pretty amusing.
> 
> This is the camera for the rest of us who have felt ignored by Canon in its rush to Video. Studio and Landscape artist have been staring at the Nikon 8xx and the Sony A7r with sad eyes as they went out to shoot with their Canons. My concern is price. I might consider this but Weight and size is impacting my older arms. For this reason I am likley to go to the A7II and the soon to be announced A7rII or A9.
> 
> For those of you complaining wait for the 5DmIV -- that will have higher frame rates, really high ISO, 4K, at around 24mp (my guess). I think that one will have a SONY/Canon sensor that Nikon will not get.




Absolutely. This is (hopefully, pending _tttmnbso_* results) the camera I've been waiting for to become my Canon landscape camera. 


_* *TTTMNBSO*: The thing that must not be spoken of _


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2015)

jrista said:


> mjardeen said:
> 
> 
> > The number of morons attacking this camera for not having higher frame rates, 4K, or higher ISO is pretty amusing.
> ...



Can we just say "Voldemort" instead? Thats seems a lot easier and means exactly the same thing


----------



## Click (Jan 31, 2015)

jrista said:


> _* *TTTMNBSO*: The thing that must not be spoken of _



;D lol


----------



## mb66energy (Jan 31, 2015)

mjardeen said:


> The number of morons attacking this camera for not having higher frame rates, 4K, or higher ISO is pretty amusing.
> 
> This is the camera for the rest of us who have felt ignored by Canon in its rush to Video. Studio and Landscape artist have been staring at the Nikon 8xx and the Sony A7r with sad eyes as they went out to shoot with their Canons. My concern is price. I might consider this but Weight and size is impacting my older arms. For this reason I am likley to go to the A7II and the soon to be announced A7rII or A9.
> 
> For those of you complaining wait for the 5DmIV -- that will have higher frame rates, really high ISO, 4K, at around 24mp (my guess). I think that one will have a SONY/Canon sensor that Nikon will not get.



I am guessing around 3 ... 3.5 k$/k€ - Canon surprised us with 7d ii price and has strong competitors. For me 50 MPix is good enough for 5...8 years, sth. like a natural (physical) limit. An OTUS would be more helpful than upgrading to a 100 MPix body.
If it's a landscape cam weight is a concern and it will be around 950 grams (below 1000g for spec lists).


----------



## Famateur (Jan 31, 2015)

K said:


> Figure this, at 50mp, will it be the equal of a Hasselblad? No way. Pixel size does matter. Larger ones are typically better, but when you are constrained by 35mm format, fitting more means making them smaller. Increases in resolution comes at the cost of smaller pixels. Thus, smaller pixels will have to become more efficient and accurate. The rumored 6400 ISO is an indication that efficiency wasn't increased much at all - they're just putting out high mega pixel count.



K, I agree with most of your comments. This one, I'm not so sure. If the smaller pixels were the reason for the ISO 6400 limit, would we not see the same limit on the 7DII? I believe the pixels are about the same size, yet the 7DII goes to ISO 16,000. In addition, it has been reported that the quantum efficiency of the 7DII is higher than that of earlier Canon sensors, including full frame.

I would think the biggest differences/advantages of medium format are:

1. Shallower depth of field.
2. Larger sensor = more light.

Anyway, food for thought...


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2015)

Famateur said:


> K said:
> 
> 
> > Figure this, at 50mp, will it be the equal of a Hasselblad? No way. Pixel size does matter. Larger ones are typically better, but when you are constrained by 35mm format, fitting more means making them smaller. Increases in resolution comes at the cost of smaller pixels. Thus, smaller pixels will have to become more efficient and accurate. The rumored 6400 ISO is an indication that efficiency wasn't increased much at all - they're just putting out high mega pixel count.
> ...



I thought the limiting factor in this case was the heavier CFA design. Get more color depth, sacrifice sensitivity?


----------



## Famateur (Jan 31, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> I have lenses to shoot anything. However, I do a lot of targeted street photography where I cannot control any of the surrounding circumstances. Cars and people get in my way. Disturbing backgrounds popping up from nowhere. Unruly pedestrians wanting to pass me during a shot. Good scenes appearing and disappearing in an instant.
> 
> Cropping is an essential way to help me focus those shots on what I want to show and get rid of all the urban "noise". A ruined full body shot can thus often be saved by cropping the picture into a close portrait shot in stead.
> 
> I am sure others also have their reasons to crop a lot regardless of arming themselves with the "right" tool for the right job. Not all of us have the luxury of having control over our subject and surroundings.



Great point, Maiaibing. I often find myself cropping for similar reasons. Sometimes I frame for one composition, but some time later, I'll see a composition I like even better with some cropping. To me, cropping is one of the tools of the the creative process, and 50MP would sure enhance that.

It all comes down to philosophy of use, and that can vary a lot from one artist to the next...


----------



## talicoa (Jan 31, 2015)

So how does the pixel density compare to a 7dII? I'm not sure cropping is always the answer when composition is more important.

Also, I really feel the 5DMKIII has hit a very useable sweetspot of quality and useability. If I were to upgrade, I would need to update my computer, cards, and card reader. I think if I need this level of quality I will just flip to portrait mode, and take three shots and photoshop a pano. 

I will probably sit this one out. Looks good for some people though. If nothing else it will give me something entertaining to read about for a while. What will the fanboys on both sides say if this thing has a Sony sensor?


----------



## Famateur (Jan 31, 2015)

jrista said:


> Absolutely. This is (hopefully, pending _tttmnbso_* results) the camera I've been waiting for to become my Canon landscape camera.
> 
> 
> _* *TTTMNBSO*: The thing that must not be spoken of _



LOL! I love it. Thanks, jrista!


----------



## Famateur (Jan 31, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > K said:
> ...



Yep. That's what's being reported, and it would seem to make sense to me. Still wondering if there's some artificial limiting at play, too, in order to more clearly differentiate this body for its target segment...


----------



## jrista (Jan 31, 2015)

Click said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > _* *TTTMNBSO*: The thing that must not be spoken of _
> ...




8)


----------



## Dholai (Jan 31, 2015)

*I am likely the happiest....*

..person and one in a micro minority looking at the specs.

I need...

Excellent DR and low ISO performance. Will be using it for Landscape/Portrait and Macro work.

I do NOT need..

Video capability-4K or 444K
High ISO 
WiFi
GPS
Very high frame rate

All I care about is a still camera with so far unseen still image quality in 35 mm format for the work I mentioned above.

I will buy it even if it breaks me. Will work many more extra shifts but will enjoy it immensely.

Thanks Canon


----------



## jrista (Jan 31, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > _* *TTTMNBSO*: The thing that must not be spoken of _
> ...




"Voldemort" implies unmitigated, unfettered evil....threfor, they don't mean the same thing.


----------



## jrista (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: I am likely is the happiest....*



Dholai said:


> ..person and one in a micro minority looking at the specs.
> 
> I need...
> 
> ...




Aye, I don't need much for a landscape camera. Would probably make for a nice macro camera as well, true true. All I care about is getting the best RAW image quality possible. Resolution certainly plays into that, but noise does as well. At 50mp+ they are certainly not going to have any problems on the resolution front. That leaves noise...and I REALLY hope they worked their asses off on the noise front.


----------



## Lawliet (Jan 31, 2015)

Famateur said:


> I would think the biggest differences/advantages of medium format are:
> 
> 1. Shallower depth of field.


MF lenses rarely are what one would consider fast in 35mm, f/4 or f/5.6 are quite normal, f/2.8 takes the place of f/1.4. They're rather designed to avoid the flaws lots of small frame lenses have wide open. And you've got the leaf shutter to avoid mortons fork of ND filters or f/16.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2015)

A big reason for DSLR video is the cost and weight savings, so if they force to spend more and to lug a second set of stuff around for top video too that defeats the purpose and those extra sales mostly won't go to them anyway. If they don't want to let 4k and basic usability features go for quite so little yet then they should have (maybe they did?) also a 5Dsc for say $2000 more than the 5Ds adds 4k video internally recorded and the basic zebras/various while filming focusing aids, etc.

Assuming there is no technical reason it can't be done with this sensor (and perhaps there is, in which case then it's all besides the point and you just cheer on that it's a top stills only camera and they have delivered that).


----------



## takesome1 (Jan 31, 2015)

I am going to be so upset with this camera.

It should have been able to do 12 fps and noise improvement so we can get great results at 12800.
It should have had GPS, WIFI and Pop Up Flash.
It should shoot 4K video (even though it would have 42 million wasted pixels since 4K is only 8 mp).


Any way I am so upset.

I wish they would announce this thing so I can get my pre-order in.

Oh, and that will upset me as well. I want this camera released now, not in a few months.


----------



## takesome1 (Jan 31, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Assuming there is no technical reason it can't be done with this sensor (and perhaps there is, in which case then it's all besides the point and you just cheer on that it's a top stills only camera and they have delivered that).



I don't know technically, but common sense looking at the numbers. 8mp for 4k video. A 50mp camera. Wouldn't it be wise to make your best 4K video camera on a body that has fewer and larger pixels? Wouldn't it give a better image overall?
Then occasionally what is common sense and obvious isn't what is technically correct.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2015)

takesome1 said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Assuming there is no technical reason it can't be done with this sensor (and perhaps there is, in which case then it's all besides the point and you just cheer on that it's a top stills only camera and they have delivered that).
> ...



Details matter, but likely not.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Feb 1, 2015)

Main point of 4K video is resolution 8MP doesn't cut it and larger pixels may give wider DR but not resolution. The current "sweet spot" is around 5.5um to 6.5um. 
Sony FF A7r is 12MP. 

Canon should be aiming to adopt H.265 HEVC for 4K it's double the data rate of H.264, 10bit instead of 8bit as in the 1D c and conforms to 4K bluray.


----------



## chilakamarthi (Feb 1, 2015)

With all these new models in market, where 6D MK2 stands and will they come with 2 or not ? If there is one when can we expect it?


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2015)

chilakamarthi said:


> With all these new models in market, where 6D MK2 stands and will they come with 2 or not ? If there is one when can we expect it?



All the 5 bodies will be $3000-4000, including the mark4. So yes we still have a 6 body around 2k.


----------



## Arkarch (Feb 1, 2015)

Regarding 4K video,

While the bulk of my work is landscape, I am sometimes called in to do event work including video. I found the Ninja-2 to be a fine outboard External Video Recorder via the HDMI cable for these needs. Actually I found it to be a superior solution with the direct disk editing capabilities.

This seems like a great opportunity for Atomos and other EVR manufacturers to provide 4K connection off this high res sensor. What am I missing other than small portability (and of course the yet-to-be-known HDMI output spec)


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 1, 2015)

takesome1 said:


> It should shoot 4K video (even though it would have 42 million wasted pixels since 4K is only 8 mp).



that's not how it works


----------



## zim (Feb 1, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > It should shoot 4K video (even though it would have 42 million wasted pixels since 4K is only 8 mp).
> ...



He'll be upset about that ;D


----------



## RGF (Feb 1, 2015)

Wonder if lack of GPS in rumored specs is significant or just an omission


----------



## Perio (Feb 1, 2015)

takesome1 said:


> I am going to be so upset with this camera.
> 
> It should have been able to do 12 fps and noise improvement so we can get great results at 12800.
> It should have had GPS, WIFI and Pop Up Flash.
> ...



Oh no, not again. Why do some people keep complaining that a soon to be released camera is not made to satisfy their personal needs. To my mind, this camera is to a certain degree a 1ds iii successor aimed at studio photographers, portrait and landscape shooters and maybe for macro. Why would you expect it to have 12 fps? Why does it have to have GPS and WIFI, and 4k video? If that's the case, what would make other people to buy 5div with (I guess) all these features?


----------



## sanj (Feb 1, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Pesto said:
> 
> 
> > It seems to me that Canon has abandoned us EOS1D users...such a pitty.
> ...



First point is an assumption. Second is false.


----------



## sanj (Feb 1, 2015)

Perio said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > I am going to be so upset with this camera.
> ...



Dude smile. The guy is joking. OBVIOUSLY.


----------



## Orangutan (Feb 1, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > Unruly: I do not think it means what you think it means. If you're getting in the way of free flowing traffic (pedestrian or mechanical) then it is you who are unruly. Perhaps the word you are looking for is "indignant," "perturbed," "hindered" or "vexed."
> ...



I apologize if I misunderstood you. I saw this



> Unruly pedestrians wanting to pass me during a shot



and it implied to me you were blocking traffic. At least, that's what this expression typically implies in American English. Perhaps you meant _pedestrians wanting to pass in front of you during a shot_. If so, then I misunderstood your meaning.


----------



## Aglet (Feb 1, 2015)

Just imagine how much improved that DR number's gonna be on DxOmark when they scale down to 8MP! 
snark aside, I hope you Canonites get a better IQ body, finally. You've all been so patient and hopeful.


----------



## mb66energy (Feb 1, 2015)

Lawliet said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > I would think the biggest differences/advantages of medium format are:
> ...



So the 100mm 2.2 for Hasselblad and the manual focus 85 or 90mm 1.9 from Mamiya transform roughly into f/1.0


----------



## Creative69 (Feb 1, 2015)

Thank you Canon! I do expect a forum to be filled with debate and criticism but some of the negative feedback is disappointing to say the least. The fact is the line between a consumer and pro camera is very blurred today, and if anyone that thinks that buying a specific model ie a 1d makes you a pro then canon obviously doesn't agree. A built in battery grip can be useful to many people not only "pros" even though most pros I know use the 5d series not the 1d series. Take The Apple iMac this was never previously considered a "pro" computer but now I bet more pros are using it than the Mac PRO. By the way I say this from a point of privaliged knowledge. Anyway thank you canon and bring it on, I own a 5d3 but it seems this new line up may finally kill my desire for the Nikon 810. In my opinion following the sony model of giving us choice in a range and not trying to make a one size fits all camera is spot on.


----------



## mark99 (Feb 1, 2015)

What disappoints me is the smoke and mirrors from canon.
Just admit defeat, the sensor technology has fallen so far behind Nikon and Sony that they are not even in that race any more.
They jumped up and down about video, so Nikon stuck out 60fps 1080 and sony have 4k video.
Now they are obviously cap in hand to Sony begging a place back at the sensor technology top table.
Fair enough, they are so far behind Nikon on ISO and clarity that they had no choice, they were never going to get close let alone catch up.
Even the archaic d700 absolutely hammers anything Canon have on ISO and the D3s show the 1DX up as a bad joke on a bad day.
But they have to do this handy capping of cameras thing all the time, buy this one to do that, that one to do this.

Do they really think people will buy 3 or 4 cameras just to have all the features.
This company is obviously staffed by complete idiots, they were out of the Press end of cameras 5 years ago, only die hard fools use Canon gear on Press work.

Now they get a seat at the top table again and what do they do ?
Slice the cake they have been given, 5fps ? oh come on, just make a Flaming camera that works as good as a camera possibly can and stop this dividing and spreading bits around multiple cameras.
Nikon make 1 camera that does it all, Canon you need 3 bodies to get the same technology.
FFS, stop it and sack these idiots in the marketing department.
Stop over pricing as well and you might actually sell some.


Bingo ? Bingo ? A line when yin get a full house from Nikon .


----------



## Eldar (Feb 1, 2015)

mark99 said:


> What disappoints me is the smoke and mirrors from canon.
> Just admit defeat, the sensor technology has fallen so far behind Nikon and Sony that they are not even in that race any more.
> They jumped up and down about video, so Nikon stuck out 60fps 1080 and sony have 4k video.
> Now they are obviously cap in hand to Sony begging a place back at the sensor technology top table.
> ...


Splendid first post. Totally off reality and well in the tradition of our good old Sweedish friend ...


----------



## Creative69 (Feb 1, 2015)

mark99 said:


> What disappoints me is the smoke and mirrors from canon.
> Just admit defeat, the sensor technology has fallen so far behind Nikon and Sony that they are not even in that race any more.
> They jumped up and down about video, so Nikon stuck out 60fps 1080 and sony have 4k video.
> Now they are obviously cap in hand to Sony begging a place back at the sensor technology top table.
> ...



Maybe you have signed up to slag of Canon and it's users which is your prerogative but doesn't take away from the fact that me and my customers are very happy with the results coming from my Canon equipment. Of course of that's not why your in the game then I see how simply comparing features from one brand to another may be appealing to you. I personally don't want or need a camera that can do it all as you put it, it even grieves me that I payed a premium for my 5d mk3 video features because I will never use them. Don't be fooled most people here know that as much slagging off of Nikon and Sony goes on at the respective forum so just rejoice in the fact we have choice and if one brand doesn't float your boat you can trot off to another. I'm loving my Canon kit and if that makes me a blind fan boy who's getting paid so be it.


----------



## stargate (Feb 1, 2015)

a camera is a tool we use to bring our internal vision / idea / story into a tangible creation for ourselves or for others to view and experience. I have never seen one tool that could do all things to that end. different cameras for different reasons and outcomes. just as we do lenses. soon we will have one more option to our creative ends. that has to be a good thing


----------



## mb66energy (Feb 1, 2015)

mark99 said:


> [...]
> 
> Do they really think people will buy 3 or 4 cameras just to have all the features.
> This company is obviously staffed by complete idiots, they were out of the Press end of cameras 5 years ago, only die hard fools use Canon gear on Press work.
> ...



If you need ONE camera to do it all -- 50 MPix, 4k @ 60Hz and 6k @ 24 Hz with 12 fps and 100 AF points -- you will end up with a 12000 €/$ camera which is out of reach for mortals. There live a lot of people in this world who like photography. Some like birding and sports - others like landscape or macro. If you can fullfill the needs of those "specialists" at 3000 €/$ - why not?
Having two or three bodies has a lot more bang for the bucks sometimes: Think about a 5Ds with a wide angle and an 1Dx with 70-200 ... without changing lenses you are prepared for nearly anything 

Idiots?  Because they deliver very good tools at reasonable prices for those who like to shoot photos (and not so comparing specs or peeping for pixel quality)?


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## SPL (Feb 1, 2015)

Trolls.....


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## Stu_bert (Feb 1, 2015)

mark99 said:


> What disappoints me is the smoke and mirrors from canon.
> Just admit defeat, the sensor technology has fallen so far behind Nikon and Sony that they are not even in that race any more.
> They jumped up and down about video, so Nikon stuck out 60fps 1080 and sony have 4k video.
> Now they are obviously cap in hand to Sony begging a place back at the sensor technology top table.
> ...



oh dear. Everyone on this forum believes everyone have the right to express their view, but you might find people a little bit more receptive and prepared to discuss your points when you are a little more measured in your comments. if you're a Nikon user and you're trying to highlight their benefits, to attract Canonites to convert, you may want to reconsider your approach.

I'm sure a lot of people get frustrated at Canon's policies, but I doubt few on this forum have experience of running a large division like Nikon's or Canon's and therefore can speak with any authority.


----------



## Orangutan (Feb 1, 2015)

mark99 said:


> What disappoints me is the smoke and mirrors from canon.
> Just admit defeat, the sensor technology has fallen so far behind Nikon and Sony that they are not even in that race any more.
> They jumped up and down about video, so Nikon stuck out 60fps 1080 and sony have 4k video.
> Now they are obviously cap in hand to Sony begging a place back at the sensor technology top table.
> ...



Dear Mark99,

You may not be aware of it, so I bring to your attention the fact that on the Internet you may find anything you need. In your case, you will want to avail yourself of the very low-cost Trolling lessons, which can be found in both audio and video formats, smartphone apps, as well old-school text format. Your above writing sample strongly indicates you should start with a remedial course in Trolling.

Orangutan


----------



## lintoni (Feb 1, 2015)

Orangutan said:


> mark99 said:
> 
> 
> > What disappoints me is the smoke and mirrors from canon.
> ...


You shouldn't mock the handy capped!


----------



## Lawliet (Feb 1, 2015)

mb66energy said:


> So the 100mm 2.2 for Hasselblad and the manual focus 85 or 90mm 1.9 from Mamiya transform roughly into f/1.0



More like the f/1.2s , depending on how you round to get that number.
And the sensor format, of course - being able to change that just as easy as the lens shouldn't be forgotten 
The limited availability of larger then 645 sensors is annoying though.


----------



## takesome1 (Feb 1, 2015)

Orangutan said:


> mark99 said:
> 
> 
> > What disappoints me is the smoke and mirrors from canon.
> ...



He was somewhat successful in that he has several responses.
However they were probably not the responses he was hoping for.
He is bashing a camera that is still a rumor, that is pretty silly.

I think you took the correct approach. We should feel sorry for him and offer advice on how to become a better troll.

Lesson #1 would be attack products that already exist and people own, not products that are still rumors.


----------



## mark99 (Feb 1, 2015)

No A Canon user for 25+ Years, just a very Pizzed off one that this company will not listen to its customers.
I have stuck with them against all my senses, but the choice is no longer an option, I have yo either move to working equipment or retire for press work.
Canon are unable to make what nikon can offer and have been unable to do so for a number of years.
Shooting static well lit objects is easy on any camera, but once the light goes and they start moving you have to accept the Nikon users are going to spank your gear and spank it hard.
My rant is I can no longer wait for them to get their bloody act together and the Rumours of yet even more spreading out of working features over other models has angered me no end.

This time Next Month after at least 25+ years, I will be switching, I held on, foolishly hoping and hoping they would get the act together then out comes the 1dx which to be honest is not even as good as the mkiv on working ISO j-peg output.
To hear they are getting sony technology but are going to drip feed and divide it slowly is the last straw.
If that Makes me a Nikon forum troll, so be it.

Yours one fed up Canon waiting tog.


----------



## takesome1 (Feb 1, 2015)

mark99 said:


> No A Canon user for 25+ Years, just a very Pizzed off one that this company will not listen to its customers.
> I have stuck with them against all my senses, but the choice is no longer an option, I have yo either move to working equipment or retire for press work.
> Canon are unable to make what nikon can offer and have been unable to do so for a number of years.
> Shooting static well lit objects is easy on any camera, but once the light goes and they start moving you have to accept the Nikon users are going to spank your gear and spank it hard.
> ...



Wouldn't it be wise to wait and see what Canon actually announces before you get worked up?


----------



## dpc (Feb 1, 2015)

mark99 said:


> No A Canon user for 25+ Years, just a very Pizzed off one that this company will not listen to its customers.
> I have stuck with them against all my senses, but the choice is no longer an option, I have yo either move to working equipment or retire for press work.
> Canon are unable to make what nikon can offer and have been unable to do so for a number of years.
> Shooting static well lit objects is easy on any camera, but once the light goes and they start moving you have to accept the Nikon users are going to spank your gear and spank it hard.
> ...




This is pointless. Just move on.


----------



## BeenThere (Feb 1, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > K said:
> ...


Yes, sharper cut-offs on the color filters means less light reaches each collector. Better color purity, but lower sensitivity. The interesting question is "how much noise at 6400 ISO". Will it be equivalent to noise at much higher ISO without the new CFA design?


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## Lawliet (Feb 1, 2015)

BeenThere said:


> Will it be equivalent to noise at much higher ISO without the new CFA design?



Then they could have set the lowest native ISO to lets say 50. I.e. just shift the whole sensitivity range.


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## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

mark99 said:


> No A Canon user for 25+ Years, just a very Pizzed off one that this company will not listen to its customers.
> I have stuck with them against all my senses, but the choice is no longer an option, I have yo either move to working equipment or retire for press work.
> Canon are unable to make what nikon can offer and have been unable to do so for a number of years.



You ever processed D700 images? ISO 200 on the D700 looks like ISO 800 on a 5Dc.

I've processed a lot of Nikon images and I've never been impressed. The 7D Mark II beats the D7100 at all ISOs above 200.


----------



## manyhats (Feb 1, 2015)

mark99 said:


> No A Canon user for 25+ Years, just a very Pizzed off one that this company will not listen to its customers.
> I have stuck with them against all my senses, but the choice is no longer an option, I have yo either move to working equipment or retire for press work.
> Canon are unable to make what nikon can offer and have been unable to do so for a number of years.
> Shooting static well lit objects is easy on any camera, but once the light goes and they start moving you have to accept the Nikon users are going to spank your gear and spank it hard.
> ...



how do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you can't even write in english?


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## saveyourmoment (Feb 1, 2015)

and let us hope for USB 3.0. 50MP tethering without USB 3.0 and Canon would lose my attention... can't wait to see the performance for my jewelry photography... especially colors and dynamic Range in low ISO...


----------



## scyrene (Feb 1, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> overniven said:
> 
> 
> > I for one am kind of excited to see what the new cameras bring. I'll hold my complaints until I see real world photos and confirmed specs. 50MP sure seems like Overkill for me, but so did 15MP when I bought my first digital SLR (T1i).
> ...



This reminds me rather of when I went from the 300D to 50D. It was more cost effective to increase the number of pixels than go for a longer lens (cropping for birds being the main motivation). And again here. More than doubling the pixel count increases my reach - even if you get diminishing returns for every extra MP. I'm quite excited


----------



## canonic (Feb 1, 2015)

For me is a winner if ... there is more DR as "Canon-normal" and no pattern noise. I expect at least 1 Stop more DR before i make my decision. If this should be a landscape camera, there is no problem with that, isnt ist?
And for a studio camera i would expected at least 1/250 Syncro time.
Otherwise, as i said, is a winner.


----------



## canonic (Feb 1, 2015)

manyhats said:


> mark99 said:
> 
> 
> > No A Canon user for 25+ Years, just a very Pizzed off one that this company will not listen to its customers.
> ...



But we are taking serious a rumor from a japanese website, right?!  There are more languages out there in the world, not only english


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## Creative69 (Feb 1, 2015)

So I'm in front of my eizo looking at my 5dmk3 photos from last nights engagement party, and I'm smiling at my 2000 iso photos, and thinking maybe there are a lot of users out there that really have no clue as to how to get the best out of their equipment! I mean can I be that good or maybe my mk3 is really a Nikon in disguise? So I conclude this if this is what I can achieve now please hurry the new range to my hands Santa Canon.


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## clicstudio (Feb 1, 2015)

Can someone please explain the advantage of no low pass filter? Thanks!


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2015)

Regarding the updated specs this morning:

Looks like Sync Speed tops out at 1/200 of a second. UGH. For a studio camera I was hoping for at least 250. Crap, my 6D does 180. Wonder what kept them from having a higher sync speed on here. Thoughts anyone?


----------



## canonic (Feb 1, 2015)

clicstudio said:


> Can someone please explain the advantage of no low pass filter? Thanks!


More sharpness but moire (or more moire).


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## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2015)

clicstudio said:


> Can someone please explain the advantage of no low pass filter? Thanks!



Anti Aliasing filter removed from sensor die. Allows for more fine detail to be resolved, but run increased risk of picking up things like moire in fine patterns. However a 50MP sensor itself may mitigate much of that problem due to high resolution. Find out soon enough


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

clicstudio said:


> Can someone please explain the advantage of no low pass filter? Thanks!



Gives you more false detail, jaggies, moire, and color artifacts, but makes people feel good who can't tell the difference between false detail and actual detail.


----------



## canonic (Feb 1, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Regarding the updated specs this morning:
> 
> Looks like Sync Speed tops out at 1/200 of a second. UGH. For a studio camera I was hoping for at least 250. Crap, my 6D does 180. Wonder what kept them from having a higher sync speed on here. Thoughts anyone?



There is no upgrade here. Same as the older 5D-s.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2015)

canonic said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding the updated specs this morning:
> ...



I get that part, I'm just wondering why. I would think on a S = Studio camera, they would try and step up the sync speed or what the technological limitation is. the 1dx does 250 I believe, granted a better shutter...


----------



## canonic (Feb 1, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> clicstudio said:
> 
> 
> > Can someone please explain the advantage of no low pass filter? Thanks!
> ...



And probable more expensiv as the 5D with low pass filter 
Lee Jay, i admite "false details", relating to no low pass filter, is new for me. Can you explain?


----------



## canonic (Feb 1, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> canonic said:
> 
> 
> > PureClassA said:
> ...



I think there are only marketing limitations ...


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

canonic said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > clicstudio said:
> ...



Let's say you have 6 fence pickets in the distance. Let's say they're far enough away and close enough together that you don't have enough pixels to resolve them. With an AA filter, you'll just get a mostly smooth area. Without, you might get 4 fence pickets. 4, not 6. None of them are real, they're aliasing artifacts.


----------



## AdjustedInCamera (Feb 1, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> canonic said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



At the risk of seeming very dim on a popular thread...

Is true that all the AA filter is doing is smoothing things out a bit?

On that basis, if someone goes with no AA filter, and gets moire/etc., they can just smooth it out in PP?


----------



## rs (Feb 1, 2015)

mark99 said:


> No A Canon user for 25+ Years, just a very Pizzed off one that this company will not listen to its customers.
> I have stuck with them against all my senses, but the choice is no longer an option, I have yo either move to working equipment or retire for press work.
> Canon are unable to make what nikon can offer and have been unable to do so for a number of years.
> Shooting static well lit objects is easy on any camera, but once the light goes and they start moving you have to accept the Nikon users are going to spank your gear and spank it hard.
> ...


This is a new one for me. Current Canon gear holds an advantage over current Nikon gear in low light situations - Canon sensors have better DR at high ISO, and less noise. This is before we include the f1.2 lenses in the current range.

The main complaints people have about Canon vs Nikon in the current range is resolution and low ISO performance - and it looks like this particular camera is aimed at addressing those issues.

If all you want is better high ISO performance than Nikon, look no further than the current full frame Canon bodies.


----------



## canonic (Feb 1, 2015)

> Let's say you have 6 fence pickets in the distance. Let's say they're far enough away and close enough together that you don't have enough pixels to resolve them. With an AA filter, you'll just get a mostly smooth area. Without, you might get 4 fence pickets. 4, not 6. None of them are real, they're aliasing artifacts.



I understand till "None of them are real, they're aliasing artifacts."Why, are they not real? And, are 4 not better as 6? Maybe, do you have a link about this? I think examples (fotos) will help me better in this regard.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

AdjustedInCamera said:


> At the risk of seeming very dim on a popular thread...
> 
> Is true that all the AA filter is doing is smoothing things out a bit?
> 
> On that basis, if someone goes with no AA filter, and gets moire/etc., they can just smooth it out in PP?



The AA filter is a blur filter, and yes it smooths things out. This cannot be done in post processing. The AA filter does it to the incoming light before sampling. Once the signal has been digitally sampled, the damage is done. You can use a few tricks to try and hide it, but the original signal cannot be recovered, even theoretically.

Here's a comparison of the D800e (no AA filter) to the D800. Note the vertical lines and blue/magenta colored streaks in the D800e image (top). Neither one exists. The D800 in the bottom has them too but to a much smaller degree (it has an effective, but imperfect AA filter). This a completely black and white area with nothing but horizontal lines.


----------



## rs (Feb 1, 2015)

AdjustedInCamera said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > canonic said:
> ...


No. The moire is baked into the image, and no amount of softening or downsampling can entirely remove it. Here's an example of what you'd be left with (although its not a fence):


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

canonic said:


> > Let's say you have 6 fence pickets in the distance. Let's say they're far enough away and close enough together that you don't have enough pixels to resolve them. With an AA filter, you'll just get a mostly smooth area. Without, you might get 4 fence pickets. 4, not 6. None of them are real, they're aliasing artifacts.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand till "None of them are real, they're aliasing artifacts."Why, are they not real? And, are 4 not better as 6? Maybe, do you have a link about this? I think examples (fotos) will help me better in this regard.



I suggest you read these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliasing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kell_factor

And watch this carefully, in full-screen, starting about 2:20 in. Make sure you look at the area to the right as well.

http://vimeo.com/54863241


----------



## mskrystalmeth (Feb 1, 2015)

I have read some of the messages...

The two Canon 5d's are Studio Cameras. The 50mp Sensor is Produced by Sony! Now we all know Canon loves to way over price their cameras, that Cinema Camera comes to mind on that point...I am guessing $3,500 to almost to $5,000.


----------



## canonic (Feb 1, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> AdjustedInCamera said:
> 
> 
> > At the risk of seeming very dim on a popular thread...
> ...



This is a good example. I see D800E has a little more contrast detail (see vertical lines - the real ones), but has more aritifact in form of moire. Thanks.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

dilbert said:


> AdjustedInCamera said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



That's not true.

https://nikoneurope-en.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/56368

"The OLPF generally consists of two layers of birefringent plates and one wavelength plate. Light is split while being transmitted through the birefringent plates onto the image sensor as shown below.In addition, IR coating, AR coating, and IR absorption glass are also used for better colour reproduction characteristics."

Same information here: http://www.optics-online.com/doc/files/Optical%20Low%20Pass%20Filters%20Theory%20and%20Practice.pdf

"OLPFs are made of several layers of birefringent optical crystals cemented together. The number of layers and thickness of each layer is defined by the pixel spacing of the sensor and the application. It follows that each OLPF design must be tuned to a particular sensor and application.

For color imaging, an IR cut-off function is often integrated into OLPF as well. A reflective IR cut-off coating can be applied to an external surface or an absorptive IR cutoff filter layer can be added to the quartz layers."


----------



## IsaacImage (Feb 1, 2015)

The same exact discussion all over again, as a 3 y ago with d800 vs d800e.
But keep in mind after all Nikon get rid from D800 and left one body only - D810 with no AA.

So I wouldn't surprise if in a next upgrade 5dS mk II there will no be a two different models , will be one super high mega pixel body with no AA filter.

And BTW Canon do realize that those bodies are not the best video, that's why they keeping 5d mk IV line with lower mp count.
Hopefully 5DsR will be at least with 7d mk II AF system.
www.IsaacImage.com


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2015)

mskrystalmeth said:


> I have read some of the messages...
> 
> The two Canon 5d's are Studio Cameras. The 50mp Sensor is Produced by Sony! Now we all know Canon loves to way over price their cameras, that Cinema Camera comes to mind on that point...I am guessing $3,500 to almost to $5,000.



There is no confirmation the sensor is produced by Sony. Not saying it isn't. But there is no confirmation it is. In fact, Canon Watch had a subsequent CW3 (CR 1-2 equivalent) that it is NOT Sony, but Canon. And No Canon doesn't over price their cameras. Everyone thought the 7D2 was going to be $2500+ while kept saying no way, it'll be under $2000 just like the older model. Wham. Same thing with the 100-400 Mk2. Everyone thinking $3000+. I said $2000-$2500. Wham. As you can see I'm planning on going 3 for 3 ;-) The new Studio Rigs will be between $3500-$4000 (maaaaaybe $4200 high side but I'm not feeling' it. They are there to compete with a D810. The 5D4 will Also be the same price as it will have 4k included where these Studio models will not. The Prognosticator hath spoken! ;D


----------



## lintoni (Feb 1, 2015)

mskrystalmeth said:


> I have read some of the messages...
> 
> The two Canon 5d's are Studio Cameras. The 50mp Sensor is Produced by Sony! Now we all know Canon loves to way over price their cameras, that Cinema Camera comes to mind on that point...I am guessing $3,500 to almost to $5,000.


How's your 3D printer doing?


----------



## mjardeen (Feb 1, 2015)

> At the risk of seeming very dim on a popular thread...
> 
> Is true that all the AA filter is doing is smoothing things out a bit?
> 
> On that basis, if someone goes with no AA filter, and gets moire/etc., they can just smooth it out in PP?



Exactly


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

mjardeen said:


> > At the risk of seeming very dim on a popular thread...
> >
> > Is true that all the AA filter is doing is smoothing things out a bit?
> >
> ...



No, you can't.


----------



## xps (Feb 1, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> mskrystalmeth said:
> 
> 
> > I have read some of the messages...
> ...



+1 if you are right...

I heared that Canon was indeed thinking of using an non-Canon sensor on one of the tryout-models oft the 7DII, but decided not to do this. I read somewhere in the past, that there was an 24MP sensor in the wild with great specifications (better DR, better ISO,...). The poster wrote, Canon was happy with this sensor, but they were in fear that an marvellous 7DII will "crop" al lot 5D... buyers.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> canonic said:
> 
> 
> > > Let's say you have 6 fence pickets in the distance. Let's say they're far enough away and close enough together that you don't have enough pixels to resolve them. With an AA filter, you'll just get a mostly smooth area. Without, you might get 4 fence pickets. 4, not 6. None of them are real, they're aliasing artifacts.
> ...



Great video. Thanks for sharing. I don't know much about the Panys except the GH4, but I don't know whether ANY of them have or have not the low pass filter. What was I looking at? I have to assume based on the strength of that moire that they have no AA?


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > canonic said:
> ...



This is an example of aliasing, not an example of a lack of an AA filter. Because this is a video output at a far lower resolution than the sensor's resolution, the aliasing is caused by other effects besides the lack of an AA filter. However, the effect is the same just easier to visualize.


----------



## Rick (Feb 1, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Kairumorman said:
> 
> 
> > traveller said:
> ...



Or just a tool.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2015)

xps said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > mskrystalmeth said:
> ...



I dunno about the other sensor. But my only slight qualm in prediction is the fact that the 5d4 is rumored not be announced until late summer. That does throw a bit of a monkey wrench into the call I'm making, but I'm wondering if the 5D3 itself doesn't get an official price drop the same day the 5DS is officially announced, preserving that sacred $3500ish marketing space for the new studio gems. That would make a ton of sense. Drop the 5D3 to, say, $2799MSRP (where the street will go $2500) and $3500-$4000 opens back up for a 5D4. Look, they just did it with the 1DC to start phasing it out and the DX2 isn't even rumored yet (so far as specs). This is gonna be VERY VERY banner year for Canon no matter how you slice it.


----------



## xps (Feb 1, 2015)

For me personally, the question is:

Will the rumored (http://www.techtoyreviews.com/canon-5ds-image-leaked-price-tag-3800/) *3800$ (5DS) or the 4300$ (5DsR)* be worth the price, Canon will want to have for it?

Or wait for an 5DIV, an goldenegglayingwoolmilksaw??? But how much will this be????


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

It would be really funny if Canon charges more to NOT include one of the most expensive items in the camera, and that some people decide to pay extra for NOT getting a component that improves image quality.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2015)

Yeah I'm willing to bet the R is NOT more expensive than the S. I wonder if they won't be the exact same price. Same the 5D4 when it comes out.


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Feb 1, 2015)

xps said:


> For me personally, the question is:
> 
> Will the rumored (http://www.techtoyreviews.com/canon-5ds-image-leaked-price-tag-3800/) 3800$ (5DS) or the 4300$ (5DsR) be worth the price, Canon will want to have for it?
> 
> Or wait for an 5DIV, an goldenegglayingwoolmilksaw??? But how much will this be????



Those prices are way too high. If true, Canon killed the success of this camera right out the door. It can't be more than the D810. If anything it needs to be less, as most people looking for higher MP and higher DR have already moved to Nikon. I doubt many people are going to pay more for something with just more MP. 36MP is already taxing out many lenses and is a huge amount of detail! 

I can't even think of a single professional landscape photographer who hasn't moved on to an A7R or D800/810 by now, who shoots with 35mm format gear.


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 1, 2015)

sorry, may have overlooked it: but what does the "ITR AF" on the rumored spec list stand for? 



> - AF 61 points (41 points cross type). EV-2 support.
> *- ITR AF*



Thanks


----------



## rs (Feb 1, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> sorry, may have overlooked it: but what does the "ITR AF" on the rumored spec list stand for?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Intelligent Tracking and Recognition Auto Focus

http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2013/eos1dx_afpoint_selection_using_color_information.shtml


----------



## xps (Feb 1, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> xps said:
> 
> 
> > For me personally, the question is:
> ...



Sir, I am just an hobby photographer, but why shouldn´t Canon drain our wallet as much they can?
Look at Apple, whose iPhones are just incremental better than the earlier model? But on each sucessor, the price moves up and up....

Edit: My son in law mentioned, that the a7rII (successor) will be priced significantly lower than 3000Euro, at 2500+-. As many parts of the camera-systems are better from Canon, the pricetag could be true


----------



## V8Beast (Feb 1, 2015)

mark99 said:


> This time Next Month after at least 25+ years, I will be switching, I held on, foolishly hoping and hoping they would get the act together then out comes the 1dx which to be honest is not even as good as the mkiv on working ISO j-peg output.



So let me get this straight. After 25+ years of shooting Canon, you wait until one month before switching to Nikon to come onto this forum and complain? Makes perfect sense to me


----------



## paulrossjones (Feb 1, 2015)

does anyone know what "EV-2 support" is?


----------



## lintoni (Feb 1, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> xps said:
> 
> 
> > For me personally, the question is:
> ...



I can.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> xps said:
> 
> 
> > For me personally, the question is:
> ...



Why then does the 5D3 continue to sell so well and be used by WAY more professional photographers than any Sony? Canon will sell a boatload of these AND the 5D4 will sell even more. Sony has not the same level of AF capability, the ergonomics, or especially the competitive and unique glass Canon has. Nor does it have so nearly a loyal following. One of the biggest reasons for this is three simple letters. CPS. Canon Professional Services. Sony can barely spell customer service. Neither can most other companies. Even Nikon's pales in comparison to Canon. This is a critical measure for real pros who demand high levels of and super fast service. Try getting a major repair done on a $2500 lens with Sony with a door to door turnaround time of 3 days. Canon does it.


----------



## AdjustedInCamera (Feb 1, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> AdjustedInCamera said:
> 
> 
> > At the risk of seeming very dim on a popular thread...
> ...



Okay, thanks for this.

So while it's true that the AA is smoothing things out, it's actually only smoothing out the high-frequencies (edges, sharp patterns, etc.) that the sensor doesn't have the resolution to record correctly anyway. Trying to record these sharp patterns with a sensor without an AA filter will result in artefacts that are then impossible to selectively remove from the digital image.

So do the parts of an image without sharp patterns get recorded equally well with and without an AA filter?


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Feb 1, 2015)

Memory Card SD-HC only until speed UHS-I, if there is already UHS-II? ???


----------



## raptor3x (Feb 1, 2015)

paulrossjones said:


> does anyone know what "EV-2 support" is?



That's the one that's piqued my interest. As much as I'm against giving up the OVF, I would be very happy if you could add on an EVF through the hotshoe like on the Olympus Pen cameras.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

AdjustedInCamera said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > AdjustedInCamera said:
> ...



That's the idea, but it's actually impossible to build a so-called "brick wall" filter with a perfect pass band and a straight drop to zero right at the Nyquist frequency. So, since that's impossible, some compromise has to be struck. This usually involves some impact on the pass band (where you want everything to get through) and some residual in the stop band (where you want nothing to get through). This is why an AA filter has some impact on the very high frequencies in the final image and yet still allows some aliasing. The small impact on the pass band is why some people don't want the filter at all - they'd rather suffer all the aliasing to get no impact (or, more likely, they're ignorant of the aliasing or the reason for such a filter to exist).

The good news is, modern post processing can compensate for most of the pass band impact. With good AA filters and good processing, it's possible to get about 90% of the theoretical maximum with almost no effect of aliasing.


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 1, 2015)

paulrossjones said:


> does anyone know what "EV-2 support" is?



yes ... central sensor of phase AF-system will work down to light levels of minus 2 EV [@ ISO 100]

has nothing to do with (support for) an electronic viewfinder (EVF).


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 1, 2015)

rs said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > sorry, may have overlooked it: but what does the "ITR AF" on the rumored spec list stand for?
> ...



Thanks, rs!


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> AdjustedInCamera said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



Yes, and we have the R version for those who don't mind the extra moire so long as they can resolve that extra spec of dust on a distant gorilla's butt hair.


----------



## RickWagoner (Feb 1, 2015)

xps said:


> PhotographyFirst said:
> 
> 
> > xps said:
> ...




Actually the very first iPhone was $600 with out any help from AT&T and you still had a locked 2 year contract, after a month or so Apple lowered it $100. The second iPhone came in at $200 or $300 with AT&T contract, no options without the contract either way in USA. Today with contract (to be fair to the original iPhone at $600 with 2 year contract) you can have an iPhone 5C for free that is hundreds times faster and better than the original. So you're wrong on your example...


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Feb 1, 2015)

raptor3x said:


> paulrossjones said:
> 
> 
> > does anyone know what "EV-2 support" is?
> ...


This does NOT seem anything with viewfinder abbreviation.

It seems the sensitivity of the central focal point, capable of working with EV -2, which means something like the lighting of a nightclub.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

EV -2 is really dark - ISO 3200, f/2.8, 1 second shutter speed.


----------



## paulrossjones (Feb 1, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> paulrossjones said:
> 
> 
> > does anyone know what "EV-2 support" is?
> ...



bummer


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2015)

Comparatively speaking, the 6D had -3 EV on center point. Means your camera can focus a lot more easily in the dark. Landscape shooting at night using AF for example.. the lower the number the easier it will be to grab focus


----------



## Nelu (Feb 1, 2015)

xps said:


> For me personally, the question is:
> 
> Will the rumored (http://www.techtoyreviews.com/canon-5ds-image-leaked-price-tag-3800/) *3800$ (5DS) or the 4300$ (5DsR)* be worth the price, Canon will want to have for it?
> 
> Or wait for an 5DIV, an goldenegglayingwoolmilksaw??? But how much will this be????


Yeah, I`m sure the article is very reliable:
"According to Kenrockwell, which is the most reliable source and famous website for evaluating the camera and lens posted a live photo of Canon 5DS, it’s identical to pictures leaked on the Internet. "
LOL


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

paulrossjones said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > paulrossjones said:
> ...



Why?

If you really want an EVF on a 6D, buy a Hoodman or similar. Done.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

JS5 said:


> So... big sensor, more megapixels ( to keep you buying crap ) after all the technology and research, still could not sync the camera to a higher shutter speed ? Seriously Canon ? Are you serious ? You don't even stretch your focus point to the edges where some of us use daily... Yet you make more megapixels ( which are barely needed ) but you won't make the camera sync at a higher shutter speed ?????????
> Canon GET a clue or maybe buy one !!! Listen Canon you make cameras that most sports guys use... why can't you sync the shutter at a higher speed ?
> You guys are ridiculous... get off the megapixel wars and make a good camera that syncs faster and the main thing to keep in mind is to shoot it on manual ! For crying out loud !!!
> I am disgusted... Shame on you Canon !!!



A higher sync speed requires a physically faster shutter. Extending focus points to the edge is difficult on a full-frame because many lenses don't project a big enough image circle for the edge focus points to see through.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

150,000 pixel RGB-TR metering sensor
252 zone TTL metering

I don't get this. I thought the 150,000 pixel metering sensor replaced the 35 zone (and similar) metering sensors. Why would this be specified twice?


----------



## marcel (Feb 1, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> PhotographyFirst said:
> 
> 
> > xps said:
> ...




To be precise they will have to repair within 48 hours and give you a replacement.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 1, 2015)

"50.6mp full frame CMOS
53mp total resolution
"

???

" RAW (50MP), M-RAW (28MP), S-RAW (12.4MP)
Crop modes 1.3x and 1.6x
"

So which is it? The dumb mRAW,sRAW stuff that rob you of all reach for wildlife and don't give you the true quality of a real RAW file either or useful crop modes? Or, best of all, both?


"Continuous shooting 5 frames / sec"

In all modes? Did Canon a dumb one and NOT use cropped modes which maintain full reach and allow for faster fps and just use the silly mRAW and sRAW stuff that rob you of reach and don't allow for more fps???

Or is the info just incomplete?

The way Nikon does it make their bodies a LOT better for general usage, since you get slow speed for FF but then nice speed with nice reach for sports and wildlife with true cropped RAW.

Will Canon be obstinate and refuse to 'lose face' that their way makes less sense or not?

"Video 1920×1080 30fps (ALL-I or IPB)
"

Hello 2007!!!!!
And of course it won't even have the basic usability features of zebras or focusing aids or RAW historgram, etc. etc.


----------



## lintoni (Feb 1, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> paulrossjones said:
> 
> 
> > does anyone know what "EV-2 support" is?
> ...



http://www.crutchfield.com/S-NEZxYw40jMK/p_280EV2SMS/Canon-EV2.html


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> "50.6mp full frame CMOS
> 53mp total resolution
> "
> 
> ???



All CMOS sensors have pixels that are masked out. This is often used for black point calibration.



> " RAW (50MP), M-RAW (28MP), S-RAW (12.4MP)
> Crop modes 1.3x and 1.6x
> "
> 
> So which is it? The dumb mRAW,sRAW stuff that rob you of all reach for wildlife and don't give you the true quality of a real RAW file either or useful crop modes? Or, best of all, both?



Both. I'm sorry Canon is still using mraw and sraw despite the existence of the far-superior approach in the new DNG spec - lossy raw compression and/or downsampling.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> "Video 1920×1080 30fps (ALL-I or IPB)
> "
> 
> Hello 2007!!!!!



Gee...I don't even have an HD TV yet. The only HD device in my house is my computer. I may buy a 4k device later this year, but it will be used as a computer monitor. I'm not planning to replace my CRT SD TVs at any point in the foreseeable future.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> 150,000 pixel RGB-TR metering sensor
> 252 zone TTL metering
> 
> I don't get this. I thought the 150,000 pixel metering sensor replaced the 35 zone (and similar) metering sensors. Why would this be specified twice?



Wondered the same thing


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> "50.6mp full frame CMOS
> 53mp total resolution
> "
> 
> ...



Guessing rumor misinterpretation. Time will tell. And obviously they are dilberately not tuning this for video use whatsoever to preserve the same price point for a 5D4, I'm betting.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Guessing rumor misinterpretation. Time will tell. And obviously they are dilberately not tuning this for video use whatsoever to preserve the same price point for a 5D4, I'm betting.



FF = 50.6MP
1.3 crop (really, 1.25 if it's like the 1D-1DIV) = 32.4MP
1.6 crop = 19.8MP

Since they don't match the mraw and sraw specs, I'm guessing it has full-frame mraw and sraw modes on top of the crop modes.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 1, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > "50.6mp full frame CMOS
> ...



OK, well they phrased it weirdly since normally you'd say a 53MP FF sensor with 50.6MP actual resolution.



> Both. I'm sorry Canon is still using mraw and sraw despite the existence of the far-superior approach in the new DNG spec - lossy raw compression and/or downsampling.



Yeah.
But it is really certain it has the true crop modes too and that it wasn't just a mistaken bit of info mixing up mRAW and sRAW with cropped modes?

I hope they are there and I hope they were like Nikon and give it a boost to 6-7fps in those modes.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 1, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > "Video 1920×1080 30fps (ALL-I or IPB)
> ...



1. You are in the extreme minority still using SD 4:3 CRT for movies/TV. (personally I've had HD1080P TV since early 2007 and HD1080 tuner for computer monitor since something like 2005)
2. even you say you are going 4k for a monitor later this year and that could certainly be used to view 4k no?
3. 4k allows for much better quality 1080P overall
4. 4k can act as a 2x TC for 1080P wildlife
5. 4k allows for panning in 1080P frame

beyond just not having 4k, it sounds like no zebras, focusing aids, raw historgram, no 1080p60, not even the (granted in many ways useless, at least from a quality standpoint) clean HDMI out, for all we know it might even have aliasing (so far only 1DX and 5D3 have provided video without bad aliasing from Canon)


Granted, if they the stills totlaly knocks it out of the park (exmor performance, 50MP, 6+ fps in cropped modes, etc.) the video could be forgiven (although still a shame and a major lost selling point that will cost Canon money one way or another) and the stills would be totally amazing.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 1, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > 150,000 pixel RGB-TR metering sensor
> ...



yeah there are a few small things about the specs that are not adding up....


----------



## tphillips63 (Feb 1, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > 150,000 pixel RGB-TR metering sensor
> ...


It is an improved 1D X metering system, the same in the 7D MkII, the 150000 pixels are divided into the 252 zones for a greater coverage. You can read more about it now in 7D Mk II reviews or Canon information pages.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



I suppose, but that isn't its purpose. It's purpose is to allow me to use four simultaneous 1080p windows for a sort of all-in-one quad-monitor setup. I do a lot with many windows open at a time.



> 3. 4k allows for much better quality 1080P overall
> 4. 4k can act as a 2x TC for 1080P wildlife
> 5. 4k allows for panning in 1080P frame



I know. The only reason I want it is for post-capture stabilization in the process of producing 1080p final videos.


----------



## Proshooter (Feb 1, 2015)

These specs look perfect for my needs.

I shoot architectural, Industrial & product.
Been shooting Canon professionally since 1981 as well as 6x6, 6x17 & 4x5.

For Architectural I need as wide an angle of view as possible with minimal distortion.
I shoot a lot of interiors including many tight spaces like automotive and aircraft interiors.
That means full sized sensor bodies paired with quality wide angle lenses fit my work best.

At one time I shot with Hasselblad SWC Superwide, but once I went all digital I found medium format digital systems didn't offer comparable wide fields of view due to crop factors as well as full system costs. My first full time digital body was a 1Ds mkII. I found that RAW files I could make with this system were comparable to the film scans I could make from my medium format system (8000ED scans, not $100 wet drum). I had several disappointments with that system including the $8000 price tag and sensor dust issues but once I started using it I stopped shooting film.

My newer body is a 5D mkIII. Compared to the 1Ds it nearly completely solved the sensor dust issue, cost far less ($3500) and added capabilities of HD video, 14 bit (over 12 on the 1Ds) and HDR which I use as an auto bracket. The only thing I need to improve on this is more resolution and perhaps addition bit depth.

I do high end retouching. Over 12,000 hrs of Photoshop when I last tallied it a couple of years ago. When I'm detailing shots to remove signs, fix pavements and other details more resolution helps. I understand that 50mp will likely exceed the resolving powers of my lenses, which is why I shoot all L lenses and use top end polarizer filters. I am planning to upgrade my glass as improved version are available.

I'm not concerned about high ISO, I can use the 5D for anything that requires on camera flash, low light, high fps, etc. If this new camera shot only ISO 100 and was full manual I'd be fine with that. I'm also not worried about file sizes. I already manage terabytes of files on my desktop and use high powered computers to work and manage my files.

I can understand shooters that want everything in one camera, but I don't think this is that type of camera. There are plenty of other do-everything options, but most have to make multiple trade offs to do that. I'm happy this includes HD video and would have liked a 4K capability, but I'll happily give that up for the additional resolution. 50mp fits my needs. 40+ might have been acceptable but 36 would have fallen short of my expectations.

I'm also glad to see the "R" version that will allow me to decide when to add anti-aliasing, moire control and edge softening in post production if needed at all.

Some earlier posts suggest the US pricing might be $3450. That would be great. I can consider anything up to $6000 per body and make a business model for it, over that becomes less clear. 

Looking forward to Feb.6th when more details about the specs, cost and availability come out.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

Proshooter said:


> I understand that 50mp will likely exceed the resolving powers of my lenses, which is why I shoot all L lenses and use top end polarizer filters.



Your lenses will out-resolve this sensor, easily.



> I'm also glad to see the "R" version that will allow me to decide when to add anti-aliasing, moire control and edge softening in post production if needed at all.



You cannot do, in post, what an AA filter does. It's actually theoretically impossible. All you can do in post is something that hides some of the aliasing that is captured. You can't recover the original signal.


----------



## Busted Knuckles (Feb 1, 2015)

I suspect that I will be one of the first to pre-order this. The only question I really have is the AA filter vs not.

These photosites are going to be pretty small already - I have to now go study the Nikon discussions on the topic. How often and to what extent a shot gets wiggled up.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2015)

Busted Knuckles said:


> I suspect that I will be one of the first to pre-order this. The only question I really have is the AA filter vs not.
> 
> These photosites are going to be pretty small already - I have to now go study the Nikon discussions on the topic. How often and to what extent a shot gets wiggled up.



Good luck beating me to it ;D. And it's easy. You get the 5DS. I'm betting Canon is rather begrudgingly making the R model, to play ball and silence the small but noisy "F the Filter crowd".


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Proshooter said:
> ...



It's stupid, harmful, and can lead to Canon getting a bad reputation.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2015)

I bet for every one R model Canon sells, they sell 4 S models. And I bet they're planning on this.


----------



## sarangiman (Feb 1, 2015)

tphillips63 said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



If you look at the specifications on Canon's own Canon 1D X page:
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_1d_x#Specifications

... you'll see they also say: "252-zone metering with approx. 100,000-pixel RGB AE sensor and TTL maximum aperture metering employed."


----------



## Boykinally (Feb 1, 2015)

I will be preordering the R version myself.


----------



## Fazz1977 (Feb 1, 2015)

50MP gets me very excited... as a landscape shooter who actually prints large. Even while shooting aurora in darkness in Finland, I didn't go above ISO6400 on my 6D. I don't shoot sports... always tripod mounted, and shoot in seconds or minutes, rather than fractions of seconds... so a body like this is perfect!!! Video? Get a 5D3 and stop moaning.

My main concern is can L glass actually resolve that high, or am I going to have to look at zeiss or Schneider glass to complement this body?


----------



## kurcobolja (Feb 1, 2015)

Synchro is 1/200 sec, serious?


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

Boykinally said:


> I will be preordering the R version myself.



Shoot a lot at f/18.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 1, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Proshooter said:
> ...





Lee Jay said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Why are you so afraid of a Canon camera without an anti-alias filter?
> ...



I have to agree with Dilbert on that one 

It isn't stupid, if it is harmful I am sure Canon have run the numbers and think it is worth it, and they can look after their own reputation, even when there are really serious issues. The 1D MkIII got them a terrible reputation for AF, the 1DX is widely regarded by those that push the AF envelope to be the best in the world.

Besides we don't know the nature of 'no AA filter' yet, obviously the D800E was a kludge and not widely loved, but the D810 isn't a kludge and does seem to be loved by its owners, maybe if the 5DRS is an even better implementation of 'no AA filter' that can retain some of the EF lens quality then it could approach MFD for all but the most discerning shooters. 

To be sure, some shooters will be more than happy to make the trade off between the additional moire and the intrinsic sharpness 'no AA filter' will give them.


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Feb 1, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> xps said:
> 
> 
> > For me personally, the question is:
> ...



ummmmmm...your logic here is like in some form of lala land. the 5d3 held it's own and sold really well at a higher price point than the d800's (up until the d810 came out, but, the d810 was also released in the last year of the 5d3's lifespan). Straight up, If 22MP's and less DR can sell extremely well then why in the world would anyone at canon ever even consider putting a 3k price tag on a 50mp body????


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Feb 1, 2015)

JS5 said:


> So... big sensor, more megapixels ( to keep you buying crap ) after all the technology and research, still could not sync the camera to a higher shutter speed ? Seriously Canon ? Are you serious ? You don't even stretch your focus point to the edges where some of us use daily... Yet you make more megapixels ( which are barely needed ) but you won't make the camera sync at a higher shutter speed ?????????
> Canon GET a clue or maybe buy one !!! Listen Canon you make cameras that most sports guys use... why can't you sync the shutter at a higher speed ?
> You guys are ridiculous... get off the megapixel wars and make a good camera that syncs faster and the main thing to keep in mind is to shoot it on manual ! For crying out loud !!!
> I am disgusted... Shame on you Canon !!!



? ? ? wow, now this is a great first post...lol...did someone that's a regular get their account banned and is back now as this guy to post this???


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> I have to agree with Dilbert on that one
> 
> It isn't stupid, if it is harmful I am sure Canon have run the numbers and think it is worth it, ...



Sure...they think they can make some extra money leaving out an expensive part and charging extra for doing so. They surely know there are people willing to pay extra for a lower cost item and that makes Canon far greater profits.


----------



## Proshooter (Feb 1, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> Proshooter said:
> 
> 
> > I understand that 50mp will likely exceed the resolving powers of my lenses, which is why I shoot all L lenses and use top end polarizer filters.
> ...



I currently have a 16-35 L (series I), 24-70 L, 70-200 IS, a 2X (series I) and a Sigma 12-24
Last year CPS loaned me a 16-35 mkII, 14 L and their shortest TL (17?) to compare. The 14 was sharper than anything I currently have, the 16-35 was only slightly sharper on the edges than my current 16-35 but requires a larger filter - it's nice to have one $250 filter that works with 3 lenses. I hope the coming 11-24 is sharp, but only to replace my Sigma, I don't expect it to be close to the 14mm L.

Point being that I've seen the difference in my lenses and newer lenses and plan to continue to upgrade. I believe from what I've read on several of the review sites that a 50mp sensor cannot be fully appriciated with currently available lenses. It seems apparent that Canon has been upgrading their lenses in anticipation of higher resolution sensors.

In so far as "theoretically impossible", you don't know what can do in Photoshop. I would not be trying to replicate "what an AA filter does".


----------



## benperrin (Feb 1, 2015)

Busted Knuckles said:


> I suspect that I will be one of the first to pre-order this. The only question I really have is the AA filter vs not.



Me too. Wondering if we should start a new topic for the subject. It will be interesting to hear from the perspective of Nikon users as well.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 1, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Wow, such strong words.
> 
> Phase One doesn't use an anti-alias filter and they don't have a bad reputation.
> 
> ...



I do data acquisition for a living. I spend a lot of time thinking about bandwidth, sampling and anti-aliasing. Some of the things I measure make anti-aliasing very difficult. If I collect data without proper anti-aliasing people can't publish much when it comes to analyzing my data because there's no way to know if the data is accurate except in the mean. So I'm very familiar with the lies being told by a sampling system that doesn't do proper anti-aliasing in the analog domain. The idea of paying extra to NOT get that is just idiotic to me. I often pay $700 per channel (often for hundreds of channels) for high-quality anti-aliasing filters.

Why would Canon have been putting such an expensive component into every SLR they make since they started making them if they were not only not useful, but harmful?


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 1, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > yadayadayada
> ...



I'll keep a bookmark around of this historical occasion :->



privatebydesign said:


> Besides we don't know the nature of 'no AA filter' yet, obviously the D800E was a kludge and not widely loved, but the D810 isn't a kludge and does seem to be loved by its owners, maybe if the 5DRS is an even better implementation of 'no AA filter' that can retain some of the EF lens quality then it could approach MFD for all but the most discerning shooters.



Imho it doesn't really matter - they are simply reacting to demand as seen with the d800e.

As Canon offers both versions, the joke is on people buying the r as they cannot complain it's Canon's fault. From their business pov, it makes sense - selling a camera with *less* (hardware) for *more* (money) would be the dream of their marketing people, better than selling white Rebels :-o


----------



## Photo_e (Feb 1, 2015)

*FPS and Flash Sync Speed*

I wonder why they aren't able to increase the flash sync speed past 1/200. Would the only reason for this be that the shutter / mirror assembly isn't fast enough? If that is the case and the camera has a relatively slow mirror, maybe we shouldn't hope for faster fps in crop modes either.


----------



## JonB8305 (Feb 1, 2015)

*Re: FPS and Flash Sync Speed*



Photo_e said:


> I wonder why they aren't able to increase the flash sync speed past 1/200. Would the only reason for this be that the shutter / mirror assembly isn't fast enough? If that is the case and the camera has a relatively slow mirror, maybe we shouldn't hope for faster fps in crop modes either.



1/200 is very disappointing for a studio body, where sync speeds are important.


----------



## Pag (Feb 1, 2015)

I'm surprised at the lack of wifi and GPS. Wifi is useful in the studio (for wireless tethering) and GPS is useful to landscape photographers, the two types of photographers the 5Ds seems to target. Not a deal breaker (the price, however...) but they would have been nice features.


----------



## benperrin (Feb 1, 2015)

Karlpedal said:


> I am surprised that the rumors that have subsequently been denied receiving such a meaning, the man behind the cameras rumours one with with aa filter and one without having renounced these facts and explained it as a joke



That's if it actually was the person who submitted the rumour. Most likely the person is just trolling everyone. But all this debate on specs that are most likely inaccurate, is getting a little silly. We all just need to wait a little while longer to see what the real specs are.


----------



## flairolini (Feb 1, 2015)

So a RAW file will be what..60-70mb?

If we are playing guess the price I am saying *$6490*


----------



## jeffa4444 (Feb 2, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, such strong words.
> ...


AA filters are not born equal and it would be wrong to assume they are a cure all they are not. Red Camera for the Epic Dragon do three different types for instance. AA filters as we know reduce resolution but they also can affect colorimagery or impart magenta casts or shift the focus point of some lenses. What I will say is all motion picture cameras have them and for good reason getting rid of aliasing or moire patterns is not an easy task and made worse at 24fps and a panning camera. 
If this camera is focused on stills rather than video and the highest resolution then I understand why but I would not buy without an AA fitted.


----------



## Famateur (Feb 2, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> The idea of paying extra to NOT get that is just idiotic to me.



I'm still irked that if I ask for extra pickles on my hamburger, I pay extra, but they won't drop the price if I ask to hold the onions. If I had to pay extra to hold the onions, that would be idiotic, too! 

From a business perspective, this is great for Canon (as long as implementation is as good as it can be). Whether or not people are paying for hype or actual added value doesn't much matter, as long as they're paying. Lower production cost and higher market equilibrium price just means more profit. 

Canon (in the voice of Bart Simpson): "I'd be stupid _not _to do this!"


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 2, 2015)

dilbert said:


> The AA filter is a grid on top of the sensor but the grid spacing is different to that of the sensor's. Light that hits the grid material is lost.



Consistent with your technical knowledge, your explanation isn't even close to the truth. 




dilbert said:


> Lightroom and Photoshop have a "moire removal" tool.



I suppose you think they actually remove moiré, too. :


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 2, 2015)

sarangiman said:


> tphillips63 said:
> 
> 
> > PureClassA said:
> ...



In low light it uses a zone system, binning pixels to increase sensitivity.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 2, 2015)

Karlpedal said:


> Zone system with a digital sensor, tell me who does that work?



It works just as it did with film, though that isn't what neuro was talking about. He was referring to the fact that the metering system divides the scene into 252 separate areas that it analyzes, along with RGB data from 100,000 pixels, to try to intelligently work out optimal exposure.


----------



## paulrossjones (Feb 2, 2015)

*Re: FPS and Flash Sync Speed*



JonB8305 said:


> Photo_e said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder why they aren't able to increase the flash sync speed past 1/200. Would the only reason for this be that the shutter / mirror assembly isn't fast enough? If that is the case and the camera has a relatively slow mirror, maybe we shouldn't hope for faster fps in crop modes either.
> ...



isn't that a 3rd of a stop?


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 2, 2015)

*Re: FPS and Flash Sync Speed*



JonB8305 said:


> Photo_e said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder why they aren't able to increase the flash sync speed past 1/200. Would the only reason for this be that the shutter / mirror assembly isn't fast enough? If that is the case and the camera has a relatively slow mirror, maybe we shouldn't hope for faster fps in crop modes either.
> ...



In what studio? The only need for faster sync speeds in a studio is to minimise the ambient, the studio is the one place where you have complete control of the ambient.


----------



## dolina (Feb 2, 2015)

Not that excited over the specifications. I hope the rumored 3rd body this Friday is a 5D Mark IV.

Rather than the 5D Mark IV being announced August.


----------



## vjlex (Feb 2, 2015)

*Re: FPS and Flash Sync Speed*



privatebydesign said:


> In what studio? The only need for faster sync speeds in a studio is to minimise the ambient, the studio is the one place where you have complete control of the ambient.



Such a slow sync speed makes it difficult to shoot with wide apertures which I sometimes would prefer using. Especially since I have such a small studio space which limits the amount of background blur I can do at higher F-stops.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 2, 2015)

*Re: FPS and Flash Sync Speed*



shunsai said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > In what studio? The only need for faster sync speeds in a studio is to minimise the ambient, the studio is the one place where you have complete control of the ambient.
> ...



The difference between 1/200th and 1/250th is the difference between f/4.5 and f/4. In other words, not much.


----------



## starship (Feb 2, 2015)

*5Ds: WiFi anyone? even my radiators do support wifi...*

WiFi anyone? even my radiators do support wifi...

come on, canon. it´s 2015. nobody want´s to mount an extra big wifi-dongle for 700$ to get the functionality of a 1$ semicon.

let´s hope, this canon-sensor has a sony-style dynamic range, at least.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 2, 2015)

*Re: FPS and Flash Sync Speed*



shunsai said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > In what studio? The only need for faster sync speeds in a studio is to minimise the ambient, the studio is the one place where you have complete control of the ambient.
> ...



That makes no sense, in your studio why can't you get the ambient below 1/200, 100iso and f1.2, or around EV8-9? I can understand not being able to turn your flashes down low enough in a small space at that aperture, but I can't understand not controlling your ambient.


----------



## Jesse (Feb 2, 2015)

So... when's the firmware that adds 24fps coming out?


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 2, 2015)

dilbert said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



It works like Liquefy - makes fat people look skinny, even though they really aren't.


----------



## Khufu (Feb 2, 2015)

Apologies if this has been covered on each and every one of the past 346 pages but is this correct in a way I'm totally not getting?:

- 50.6mp full frame CMOS
- 53mp total resolution

Sounds like something to upset the RAW-mongers!


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 2, 2015)

Khufu said:


> Apologies if this has been covered on each and every one of the past 346 pages but is this correct in a way I'm totally not getting?:
> 
> - 50.6mp full frame CMOS
> - 53mp total resolution
> ...



Almost all sensors have masked pixels.

The 7DII is 20MP with 21MP worth of pixels.

http://www.dpreview.com/products/canon/slrs/canon_eos7dii/specifications


----------



## Khufu (Feb 2, 2015)

Aye, it just reads a little odd to me, perhaps because I'm used to seeing the smaller number followed by "effective pixels" rather than "CMOS"? 
In my head it still reads like it's telling us "there are a total of 50.6mp on the CMOS sensor but you can resolve 53 of those 50.6!" - but that's just me then?


----------



## weddingvideosydney (Feb 2, 2015)

I think the crop function will be useful for *video*. so unlike photo that probably will reduce the file size,
cropping the picture in video mode won't result in lost of size, so basically you'll get zoom ranges. as basically video only need e.g. 1920 1080 pixel where the actual photo that is available is way above that.

I remember vaugely there was a camera that have this function for video. meaning 100mm lens will be 160mm with the 1.6 crop in video mode.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 2, 2015)

weddingvideosydney said:


> I think the crop function will be useful for *video*. so unlike photo that probably will reduce the file size,
> cropping the picture in video mode won't result in lost of size, so basically you'll get zoom ranges. as basically video only need e.g. 1920 1080 pixel where the actual photo that is available is way above that.
> 
> I remember vaugely there was a camera that have this function for video. meaning 100mm lens will be 160mm with the 1.6 crop in video mode.



The 70D and a couple of the Rebels have a 100% crop mode (1 output pixel = 1 input pixel). The fact that not all of the cameras have this (notably the 7DII) is just crazy from Canon.

I doubt these crop modes will apply to video.


----------



## The Flasher (Feb 2, 2015)

Proshooter said:


> I currently have a 16-35 L (series I), 24-70 L, 70-200 IS, a 2X (series I) and a Sigma 12-24
> Last year CPS loaned me a 16-35 mkII, 14 L and their shortest TL (17?) to compare. The 14 was sharper than anything I currently have, the 16-35 was only slightly sharper on the edges than my current 16-35 but requires a larger filter - it's nice to have one $250 filter that works with 3 lenses. I hope the coming 11-24 is sharp, but only to replace my Sigma, I don't expect it to be close to the 14mm L.



If you don't mind losing a stop (shooting architecture, I reckon you won't) skip right past the 16-35 2.8 II and indulge in the *16-35/4 IS*. Cheap(er) and bounds sharper - sharper than the 14mm/2.8 II. Or, skip that and wait for the 11-24/4 - given the recent releases Canon seems to be getting the new glass just right.

Cheers


----------



## vjlex (Feb 2, 2015)

*Re: FPS and Flash Sync Speed*



privatebydesign said:


> That makes no sense, in your studio why can't you get the ambient below 1/200, 100iso and f1.2, or around EV8-9? I can understand not being able to turn your flashes down low enough in a small space at that aperture, but I can't understand not controlling your ambient.



Ambient light isn't a problem in my indoor setup. But 1/250 and slower is one of those limitations I've never understood why there hasn't been any progress in decades. I make do and usually end up shooting at 5.6 and up, but sometimes I want to shoot wide open (and yeah, sometimes it is a problem bringing the studio lights' level low enough for what I want).


----------



## benperrin (Feb 2, 2015)

*Re: FPS and Flash Sync Speed*



shunsai said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > That makes no sense, in your studio why can't you get the ambient below 1/200, 100iso and f1.2, or around EV8-9? I can understand not being able to turn your flashes down low enough in a small space at that aperture, but I can't understand not controlling your ambient.
> ...



A variable ND filter will fix that. Unfortunately it can also make it quite difficult to see through the viewfinder depending on the strength.


----------



## ranplett (Feb 2, 2015)

*Re: FPS and Flash Sync Speed*



benperrin said:


> A variable ND filter will fix that. Unfortunately it can also make it quite difficult to see through the viewfinder depending on the strength.



ND gels over the strobes could be easier and less costly. I also shoot 1/8000 sec at f1.4 with my 600RT EX speedlights.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 2, 2015)

I'll toss a two stop ND on if need be but I'd prefer a higher sync speed regardless. I usually shoot at 1/125. I've had a few hit and miss at 1/180 on the 6D where my shot is catching the shutter at the bottom of the frame. Don't hVe that problem when I slow it down a half stop. Anyone else have this issue? Anyway, I'd rather a faster speed just to reduce the propensity for motion blur. Most shits come out tack sharp at 125 but occasionally I'll get some where the model moved etc... (Dancers posing I my case). Getting a clean 250 with no shutter roll in frame would be awesome. 500 even better. It's not always convenient to have your strobes be your shutter. Hoping the new DX will surprise us with something crazy here. I have two Buff Einsteins. You can control those things up and down 9 stops from 2 watts to 640. And I'd rather use the shutter speed and lights than having to resort to an ND filter anyway.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 2, 2015)

*Re: FPS and Flash Sync Speed*



ranplett said:


> benperrin said:
> 
> 
> > A variable ND filter will fix that. Unfortunately it can also make it quite difficult to see through the viewfinder depending on the strength.
> ...



Yes but you'd get much shorter exposure times if you didn't use HSS and controlled the ambient, thereby relying on very short flash duration as your effective shutter speed. Which is very doable and was the point of my first comment about this.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 2, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> I'll toss a two stop ND on if need be but I'd prefer a higher sync speed regardless. I usually shoot at 1/125. I've had a few hit and miss at 1/180 on the 6D where my shot is catching the shutter at the bottom of the frame. Don't hVe that problem when I slow it down a half stop. Anyone else have this issue? Anyway, I'd rather a faster speed just to reduce the propensity for motion blur. Most S___s come out tack sharp at 125 but occasionally I'll get some where the model moved etc... (Dancers posing I my case). Getting a clean 250 with no shutter roll in frame would be awesome. 500 even better. It's not always convenient to have your strobes be your shutter. Hoping the new DX will surprise us with something crazy here. I have two Buff Einsteins. You can control those things up and down 9 stops from 2 watts to 640. And I'd rather use the shutter speed and lights than having to resort to an ND filter anyway.



Outside I agree, in your own studio I don't.

I also have a couple of Einsteins, but when I do narrow dof product shots I often can't get them low enough without ND gelling them, particularly for snooted accents.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 2, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > I'll toss a two stop ND on if need be but I'd prefer a higher sync speed regardless. I usually shoot at 1/125. I've had a few hit and miss at 1/180 on the 6D where my shot is catching the shutter at the bottom of the frame. Don't hVe that problem when I slow it down a half stop. Anyone else have this issue? Anyway, I'd rather a faster speed just to reduce the propensity for motion blur. Most S___s come out tack sharp at 125 but occasionally I'll get some where the model moved etc... (Dancers posing I my case). Getting a clean 250 with no shutter roll in frame would be awesome. 500 even better. It's not always convenient to have your strobes be your shutter. Hoping the new DX will surprise us with something crazy here. I have two Buff Einsteins. You can control those things up and down 9 stops from 2 watts to 640. And I'd rather use the shutter speed and lights than having to resort to an ND filter anyway.
> ...



That's essentially what I meant. Anywhere you don't have control of ambient lighting


----------



## mb66energy (Feb 2, 2015)

*Re: FPS and Flash Sync Speed*



Photo_e said:


> I wonder why they aren't able to increase the flash sync speed past 1/200. Would the only reason for this be that the shutter / mirror assembly isn't fast enough? If that is the case and the camera has a relatively slow mirror, maybe we shouldn't hope for faster fps in crop modes either.



It's a matter of travel speed of the moving parts of the shutter. From 1/250 downwards only a "slit" is traveling over the sensor for exposure. It's getting smaller for shorter exposures. (Think about a flat bed scanner as loose analogy.)

If you need shorter sync times go Mamiya - the go down to 1/800 or 1/1600 with leaf shutters.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 2, 2015)

dilbert said:


> why did Nikon go from the D800 to D810 and drop the version of their camera *with* the AA filter



because marketing nonsense


----------



## benperrin (Feb 2, 2015)

*Re: FPS and Flash Sync Speed*



ranplett said:


> ND gels over the strobes could be easier and less costly. I also shoot 1/8000 sec at f1.4 with my 600RT EX speedlights.



Well if speedlights are being used I would say use hss but strobes are a different breed. Putting gels over the strobes would decrease the amount of light hitting the subject but at some point you would risk an amount of ambient light being introduced. This can create issues with blur and colour casts. Depends on the amount of light in the room. Also adding modifiers and bouncing the light will help reduce the amount of light on the subject. Of course this will also change the look of the image, so might not be an option.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 2, 2015)

Khufu said:


> Aye, it just reads a little odd to me, perhaps because I'm used to seeing the smaller number followed by "effective pixels" rather than "CMOS"?
> In my head it still reads like it's telling us "there are a total of 50.6mp on the CMOS sensor but you can resolve 53 of those 50.6!" - but that's just me then?



I think it must be a mistranslation and they must've meant 53MP total sensor with 50.6MP imaging.


----------



## benperrin (Feb 2, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Anyway, I'd rather a faster speed just to reduce the propensity for motion blur. Most S___s come out tack sharp at 125 but occasionally I'll get some where the model moved etc... (Dancers posing I my case).



This is to do with flash duration not shutter speed. Unless you've introduced ambient light into your scene which is causing that blur. Some stobes have a long duration making them not as good as other higher end stobes.


----------



## JonB8305 (Feb 2, 2015)

*Re: FPS and Flash Sync Speed*



privatebydesign said:


> shunsai said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



Controlling ambient is pretty easy. I have a small home studio and the flash power is too high. I solved this by getting a lee ND filter system, but it makes it harder to focus as the view finder is dark, plus some introduce a color cast that needs to be corrected in post. The higher sync speed would've been cool to freeze action for strobes with a long flash duration, my profoto D1's are pretty good but they aren't the fastest. I just would've like to have see something better than 1/250 to push the tech forward in this area. They're pushing it forward in so many other areas.


----------



## sarangiman (Feb 2, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > why did Nikon go from the D800 to D810 and drop the version of their camera *with* the AA filter
> ...



My best guess is b/c if they'd decided they wanted a non-AA version, they decided to prioritize that. And it's better to remove the filter altogether than to have a canceling filter. At that point, it's more difficult to produce versions with and entirely without an AA filter, as the filter stack thickness changes, which means there'd be additional considerations in manufacturing and assembly.

This is my best guess as to why, for any particular model, companies don't introduce a model with, and without, an AA filter... instead they introduce one with a canceling filter.

In this implementation, the filter stack thickness remains the same. The AA version has two lowpass filters, one that 'separates' the image in a horizontal direction, and the other in the vertical direction. The AA canceling version has one that separates in the vertical direction, and one that combines in the vertical direction. 

I may be wrong, that's just my guess. Anyone know any different?


----------



## Adelino (Feb 2, 2015)

What is: RGB-TR metering sensor? I am sure that is a total newbie question sorry.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 2, 2015)

flairolini said:


> So a RAW file will be what..60-70mb?


 
The raw NEF files from my 36MP D800 ran from 40mmb to 52 mb, depending on the amount of noise and detail. Most ran 42-44 MB. Remember, these are compressed files, open them up, and they suddenly can become 100mb files. I opened one of the larger NEF files, it was a 52.3 MB NEF, and uncompressed to 103.5MB in Photoshop.

Based on this, I'd expect to see 60-90mb CR2's and having the uncompressed files be 120-150MB. Its no problem to open one in lightroom or photoshop, but DXO 10 elite takes a long time for each action.


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 2, 2015)

Adelino said:


> What is: RGB-TR metering sensor? I am sure that is a total newbie question sorry.



Never mind what it is, it'll be plenty expensive to it has to be terrific  ... and please don't embarrass the experts and copy/paste sites by asking questions like this, it's like the emperor's new clothes :->


----------



## dufflover (Feb 2, 2015)

(this is me commenting on the updated rumor, not anyones' posts in particular)
I'm actually quite surprised it can do 5fps, although the all important buffer capacity is usually something that people only find out from hands-on based reviews rather than spec sheets unfortunately. If it has an ok buffer depth, say 15 shots (I base this on the typically less 60D buffer, not on calculations) then it seems pretty decent to me even for full resolution casual sports/wildlife and that's not taking into account faster crop modes. Obviously very short of more specialised cams like 7D/70D/1-series but imo still flexible enough given the image sizes being dealt with.


----------



## bgran8 (Feb 2, 2015)

Has there been an update on if this is in fact the Sony Exmor sensor? I apologize if someone has already mentioned it. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Maiaibing (Feb 2, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Adelino said:
> 
> 
> > What is: RGB-TR metering sensor? I am sure that is a total newbie question sorry.
> ...



Its a known Canon focusing tech. There's a good short explanation here: http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/16499/what-is-eos-itr-af
And the long authoritative Canon version here: http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2013/eos1dx_afpoint_selection_using_color_information.shtml

Its a kind of cool AF assist system, but I also think this is why the 5Ds will not offer eye focus AF (which I would still have preferred).


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 2, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Adelino said:
> ...



Thanks, "Canon’s *Intelligent Tracking and Recognition*", who'd have guessed.

Sounds like Canon can now do with their rgb metering what Nikon has been doing all along and given a clever fw, this is certainly very useful for tracking. Unless you're trying to track gray horses in snow like I am trying to, that is


----------



## canonic (Feb 2, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> I usually shoot at 1/125. I've had a few hit and miss at 1/180 on the 6D where my shot is catching the shutter at the bottom of the frame. Don't hVe that problem when I slow it down a half stop. Anyone else have this issue?


I had the same issue with Canon 5D2. I have been forced to shoot at 1/125, otherwise the shutter was visible in foto. It is ok when the model is not moving, otherwise ...


----------



## Floydian (Feb 2, 2015)

I see no GPS or Wifi in the specs. For me GPS would be a very useful feature.


----------



## Lawliet (Feb 2, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> I'll toss a two stop ND on if need be but I'd prefer a higher sync speed regardless. I usually shoot at 1/125. I've had a few hit and miss at 1/180 on the 6D where my shot is catching the shutter at the bottom of the frame. Don't hVe that problem when I slow it down a half stop. Anyone else have this issue?



5D I-III do the same, 1/200s is hit and miss, to be sure 1/160s is a better choice. In the studio it's not that bad - but outdoors it hurts, considering that even with FP shutters you can reliably go twice as fast. Blur from the longer ambient exposure meets doubled work for the strobes.


----------



## Isurus (Feb 2, 2015)

Floydian said:


> I see no GPS or Wifi in the specs. For me GPS would be a very useful feature.



Agree. How these basic features are still missing in new DSLRs is beyond me. I'm hoping they are included specs that just haven't leaked yet.


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 2, 2015)

Lawliet said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > I'll toss a two stop ND on if need be but I'd prefer a higher sync speed regardless. I usually shoot at 1/125. I've had a few hit and miss at 1/180 on the 6D where my shot is catching the shutter at the bottom of the frame. Don't hVe that problem when I slow it down a half stop. Anyone else have this issue?
> ...



Are you people using original Canon flashes and not the cheapest ettl cables (if any)? I'm not promoting original Canon equipment, but a shutter shadow at max. x-sync should *definitely* not be to be expected as these values obviously are rather conservative in the first place esp. on 6d. I for one never, ever experienced this, and I'm using flash all the time (though often at hss for motion fill flash).


----------



## Proshooter (Feb 2, 2015)

The Flasher said:


> Proshooter said:
> 
> 
> > I currently have a 16-35 L (series I), 24-70 L, 70-200 IS, a 2X (series I) and a Sigma 12-24
> ...



Hey, thanks! That lens slipped under my radar and might be a good replacement for my 16-35/2.8. Even mounts a 77mm filter like my other lenses. Relatively cheap too.


----------



## RLPhoto (Feb 2, 2015)

Is spot metering now linked to the AF point? Such a simple thing to have...


----------



## wockawocka (Feb 2, 2015)

dufflover said:


> I'm actually quite surprised it can do 5fps, although the all important buffer capacity is usually something that people only find out from hands-on based reviews rather than spec sheets unfortunately. If it has an ok buffer depth, say 15 shots (I base this on the typically less 60D buffer, not on calculations) then it seems pretty decent to me even for full resolution casual sports/wildlife and that's not taking into account faster crop modes.



5fps is pretty good. The 645z maxes out at 3fps and the buffer craps out at 10 shots.

This sets a precedent for the 5D4 though. If it's 24mp you 'should' expect 10fps. This falls into line with the rumors on that it will be a jack of all trades. i.e. a direct competitor to the D750.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Feb 2, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> I usually shoot at 1/125. I've had a few hit and miss at 1/180 on the 6D where my shot is catching the shutter at the bottom of the frame. Don't hVe that problem when I slow it down a half stop. Anyone else have this issue?



Yes, but not at 1/180. I maybe catch the half a percent of the time at 1/200 on 5D bodies.



Marsu42 said:


> Are you people using original Canon flashes and not the cheapest ettl cables (if any)?



Not sure off the top of my head that I've ever seen it with speedlites or wired triggers. Usually notice it with elinchrom monos and triggers.


----------



## wyldeguy (Feb 2, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



Actually it's supposed to be RGB-IR which is a color and infra-red metering system for exposure. This has very little if anything to do with autofocus. This is the same exposure metering system as in the 7D mark2


----------



## lintoni (Feb 2, 2015)

wockawocka said:


> dufflover said:
> 
> 
> > I'm actually quite surprised it can do 5fps, although the all important buffer capacity is usually something that people only find out from hands-on based reviews rather than spec sheets unfortunately. If it has an ok buffer depth, say 15 shots (I base this on the typically less 60D buffer, not on calculations) then it seems pretty decent to me even for full resolution casual sports/wildlife and that's not taking into account faster crop modes.
> ...


Not really, the fps is also dependant on the mirror assembly and unless Canon choose to put the 1DX's mirror box into the 5D4...


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 2, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Lawliet said:
> 
> 
> > 5D I-III do the same, 1/200s is hit and miss, to be sure 1/160s is a better choice.
> ...


Somewhat conservative with Canon Flashes. This example is from a camera with a 1/250th rating. It made 1/320th but just barely missed 1/400th.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 2, 2015)

Well Canonwatch.com now has another new CW3 rated rumor showing this is a Sony Sensor. That equal to a CR2 here. So 50/50. Looks like there is still life to this possibility.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 2, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Lawliet said:
> ...



You guys need to get out more.....

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2010/01/know-your-sync.html


----------



## Rahul (Feb 2, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> http://strobist.blogspot.com/2010/01/know-your-sync.html



Thanks for the link. I learn something new everyday 



> Just turn the camera upside down and let the unsynced half of the frame fall on the sky. The sky needs no sync -- it is all ambient, right?


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 2, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> You guys need to get out more.....
> 
> http://strobist.blogspot.com/2010/01/know-your-sync.html



Something wrong with doing my own tests on my own equipment?


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 2, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > You guys need to get out more.....
> ...



No, but there is with making blanket statements and generalisations based off your testing of one body. The point of the link was to illustrate the differences in cameras of the same model.

Besides, if you use Canon flashes on Canon cameras as intended by Canon then you can't fool the sync. Start to introduce off brand triggers or cables, or pin taping work arounds, and the world becomes more interesting, use off brand flashes, strobes et al and you start to get a broad feature set that has limitations in different areas. 

But the world of stills illumination is currently in a quickly expanding phase, akin to the early days of digital cameras, with a plethora of interesting and feature rich products of different qualities rolling out almost daily. 

Too often we lose sight of the fact that, by definition, photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, MP's or AF, it is about the light.


----------



## LukasS (Feb 2, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Are you people using original Canon flashes and not the cheapest ettl cables (if any)? I'm not promoting original Canon equipment, but a shutter shadow at max. x-sync should *definitely* not be to be expected as these values obviously are rather conservative in the first place esp. on 6d. I for one never, ever experienced this, and I'm using flash all the time (though often at hss for motion fill flash).



With external flashes (on 5Dc) I had to go down to 1/160th otherwise I could see black border on one side. They were released with radio transmitter, frankly I haven't tested it on cable - maybe there would be a difference.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 2, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



And yet, that's exactly what I did.


> Start to introduce off brand triggers or cables, or pin taping work arounds,



Which is exactly how I did it.


----------



## Maiaibing (Feb 2, 2015)

wyldeguy said:


> Actually it's supposed to be RGB-IR which is a color and infra-red metering system for exposure. This has very little if anything to do with autofocus. This is the same exposure metering system as in the 7D mark2



So the spec list is wrong?


----------



## Arkarch (Feb 2, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Well Canonwatch.com now has another new CW3 rated rumor showing this is a Sony Sensor. That equal to a CR2 here. So 50/50. Looks like there is still life to this possibility.



I am of the opinion it is a Sony sensor. 

Canon's big markets are wedding, media, sports, etc which are mostly fine with sensors in the low to mid-20 MPs - and I suspect their R&D to increase IQ, sensitivity, DR, speed, noise, is on squarely on those sizes. We'll see those R&D results in the 5D4 and next gen 1DX.

Given this is built on an existing and proven 5D3 body, the 5DS seems to be a low-effort implementation project to stuff the lastest Sony sensor into the shell; write some ne6w firmware; and get something out to to a more limited studio and landscape market. Just an opportunity for them; maybe as part of a patent trade previously suggested.

I could be pleasantly wrong; this could be a Canon sensor; but other than measuring Canons state of R&D and patents, what difference does the sensor label make it so long as it provides us great results. 

Should know for certain soon!


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 2, 2015)

Arkarch said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Well Canonwatch.com now has another new CW3 rated rumor showing this is a Sony Sensor. That equal to a CR2 here. So 50/50. Looks like there is still life to this possibility.
> ...



Cast your vote here  ... http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=24876.0


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## Antono Refa (Feb 2, 2015)

FHD video, UHS-I, and UDMA7 slots?

I was hoping for dual UHS-I (or even -II) slots, and be done with the pins.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 3, 2015)

RickSpringfield said:


> How is this thread tracking in terms of all time popularity?



medium high


----------



## gunship01 (Feb 3, 2015)

Hope it's not more than $4,200. Nikon showed what is in the realm of the possible. Now Canon has the chance to make it better.


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Feb 3, 2015)

RickSpringfield said:


> How is this thread tracking in terms of all time popularity?


Just wait until sample RAW files show up and it only has 10 stops of DR. It will hit 1000 pages.


----------



## candyman (Feb 3, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> RickSpringfield said:
> 
> 
> > How is this thread tracking in terms of all time popularity?
> ...



;D ;D ;D


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 3, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> RickSpringfield said:
> 
> 
> > How is this thread tracking in terms of all time popularity?
> ...



Very true. ;D

more:

If it arrives with 6 stops it will hit 38 pages (since even fanboys will be sickened a that point and everyone gives up and goes Nikon/Sony hah).

If it arrives with 10 stops it goes to 1000 pages. ;D

If it arrives with 14 stops it goes to 38 pages (everyone is happy, a few quick yays from everyone and the thread ends).

If it arrives with 16+ stops it goes to 48-100 pages (since the usual suspects (Keith Reeder, Neuro, etc.) now do a 180 and brag about how Canon is the king and Nikon and Sony are useless because they have such poor DR and how everyone knows that DR is the one and only aspect to a camera that matters and that, of course, at least 75% of all shots taken require a camera with extremely high DR and go on and on about it).


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## dufflover (Feb 3, 2015)

Even if some people aren't interested in this particular type of camera and it turns out to be a current DR Sony sensor, it's always a good sign to see movement in the sensor area that maybe the next cams which are more customised for their genre might end up with something different too.


----------



## Plainsman (Feb 3, 2015)

This is could be just a very expensive "show-off" camera to show they can do it.

More realistically what are the chances of the rumoured 24.2Mp 750D? I think highly unlikely as it would crash the sales of the 70D. So overall (maybe) not so much progress.


----------



## MintChocs (Feb 3, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> RickSpringfield said:
> 
> 
> > How is this thread tracking in terms of all time popularity?
> ...



Ha ha, nearly fell off my chair from laughing when I read this.


----------



## msatter (Feb 3, 2015)

Antono Refa said:


> FHD video, UHS-I, and UDMA7 slots?
> 
> I was hoping for dual UHS-I (or even -II) slots, and be done with the pins.



At least because of the dual Digic it should write full speed on the SD card. On the current 5D mkiii this speed is crippled down to hook it up to the internal USB port.


----------



## wockawocka (Feb 3, 2015)

This much dynamic range will do, ta


----------



## wyldeguy (Feb 3, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> wyldeguy said:
> 
> 
> > Actually it's supposed to be RGB-IR which is a color and infra-red metering system for exposure. This has very little if anything to do with autofocus. This is the same exposure metering system as in the 7D mark2
> ...


Probably just a typo. Maybe a slight misinterpretation as well.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Feb 3, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> PhotographyFirst said:
> 
> 
> > RickSpringfield said:
> ...


Working with many different DOPs one of the things they constantly ask for is more DR. 
The subject was one of the topics at IBC / Photokina / CINEC most talked about and a scientific paper was presented at CINEC that highlighted the human eye ability through scanning a scene rapidly to see between 16-20 stops depending on age, visual acutity and gender (some women have an additional cone) which also affects the number of colors people can see as well. The latest research suggests through the eye & brain ability to adjust to light levels over a 15 min period that more than 20 stops is possible for younger people with twenty / twenty vision. 
Having taken numerous photographs in Africa clipping of highlights is an all to frequent problem with the current 11.5 of Canon sensors so I for one would welcome more DR.


----------



## Antono Refa (Feb 3, 2015)

msatter said:


> Antono Refa said:
> 
> 
> > FHD video, UHS-I, and UDMA7 slots?
> ...



Main point is dumping the CF card, having the SD slots serve as both primary and backup. It would save in camera size and in bent pins in the CF slots.


----------



## msatter (Feb 3, 2015)

Antono Refa said:


> msatter said:
> 
> 
> > Antono Refa said:
> ...



Personally I find SD cards to small and to bent pins then you first have bent them. I use and SD card but only to transfer the control JPG to my tablet and due to the crippeling by Canon it takes to long to write RAW to SD and lets hope Canon will use the gained computing power also in that way.


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Feb 3, 2015)

dilbert said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Maybe not! The lower end of the DR is crap anyway, so a 16 EV DR could be clipped at the bottom into a 14 bit file? It would still allow for cleaner shadows than any sexmore sensor available right now using 14 bit. 

Would be nice option for smaller file sizes, but massive shadow lifting ability?


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 3, 2015)

dilbert said:


> For > 16 stops, we would have .CR3 files. The .CR2 file is based on TIFF and is thus limited to 16bits per colour, limiting the image to 16 stops of DR.



Nope, you're wrong for several reasons: 

First off, you said it yourself: it's based (sic!) on tiff, which is the most extensible format around - including floating point tiff or 32bpp integer. If some of the bits are empty, well, that's what it's compressed for.

Next, even this doesn't matter: Canon doesn't even need to register any extension with Adobe - that's why they call it cr2 and not tiff! If they want, they can any new payload they want.

Last not least, as every raw converter needs to be updated *anyway* with each new camera release, the file extension is worth nothing and cr2 just serves as an indicator what the format is at all. If you think the file *extension* still determines the exact *format*, you're being stuck in the 90s


----------



## memoriaphoto (Feb 3, 2015)

Available in late march/early april huh!!

I'm turning 40 on april 2nd. Just sayin... (hope my wife reads this)


----------



## clifflwms (Feb 3, 2015)

dancook said:


> If it has crop modes, will it have an EVF?
> 
> Else how will you be able to see it?



On the Nikon's the full frame area is greyed out in the OVF, you can see through it, but it's obvious where the image is cropped.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 3, 2015)

clifflwms said:


> dancook said:
> 
> 
> > If it has crop modes, will it have an EVF?
> ...



Or I imagine they could use crop markings overlaid in red akin to the AF points. Lot of ways to do it. Frankly I'd rather they maintain the OVF on the pro bodies. Call em crazy, but I'd rather see straight through the lens itself as is. If I want an EVF I'll switch on the Live View. That said, I can understand EVF necessity for Video/Cinema shooting, but obviously that isn't what this rig was intended for. Maybe there's a chance you see one on the 5D4, but I'm doubtful of that. I'll be the first to admit I haven't seen what I'd call a great EVF so I'm jaded.


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 3, 2015)

Antono Refa said:


> msatter said:
> 
> 
> > Antono Refa said:
> ...



I had never a problem with bent pins and always liked CF cards because of the built-in Controller (as opposed to SD).

But now (2015) I would prefer to standardize all my flash memory cards in Micro-SDXC format (UHS II). I am skipping fully size SD cards.

And of course both Micro-SD slots in a camera should be the same high speed/performance. Fuji X-T1 already has a UHS II SD (not Micro SD) slot. Canon is trailing behind again.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 3, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> Antono Refa said:
> 
> 
> > msatter said:
> ...



Ok, I'll be the buzzkill and say I greatly prefer fast CF cards. They are bigger, tougher, and I've never lost one or mistaken for a party snack. I don't mind SD cards but I prefer the heft of CF. And Micro SD?? o lord no. I've broken more of those little bits of junk than I can remember. ;D


----------



## Eldar (Feb 3, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Antono Refa said:
> ...


+1
I don´t use SD cards in my 5DIIIs and the 7DII, just CF. I have a good stack of CF cards, which I hope to use for a while longer. I have never broken a CF card (only a card reader), but I have wrecked a few SD cards, which is why I don´t use them.


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## PureClassA (Feb 3, 2015)

Eldar, Yup!

If I have any REAL gripe about the 6D, it's the fact it has no CF slot.


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 3, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> If I have any REAL gripe about the 6D, it's the fact it has no CF slot.



Personally, I've never had a cf camera - but whenever I happen to have one in my hands it seems bulky like holding a 1980s vhs video cassette in my hands. The size alone these things occupy in a camera...

I see the point of the faster write speeds the premium cards have and the benefit of the on-card controller, but concerning size and capacity I'd rather stay with sd.


----------



## mackguyver (Feb 3, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > If I have any REAL gripe about the 6D, it's the fact it has no CF slot.
> ...


Marsu, sometimes old is good and big is good. The CF cards size is actually a nice thing as it makes them harder to lose and less likely to be left in a pocket. You can't easily bend or break them, either. It's similar to SD vs. microSD in that way. I know some complain about the pins and bending them, but I have never had a single issue in the 16+ years I've been using CF cards.


----------



## ritholtz (Feb 3, 2015)

is new rebel going to come with 70D sensor with duel pixel tech. I would like to switch to rebel with small form factor.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 3, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > PureClassA said:
> ...



I dont think I've ever bent a single pin in all the years, but I've lost/broken more than one SD card. but hey, that's what made the 5D3 and the 7D2 so great. You got one slot for each. I hope they do the same with the S


----------



## SwnSng (Feb 3, 2015)

gunship01 said:


> Hope it's not more than $4,200. Nikon showed what is in the realm of the possible. Now Canon has the chance to make it better.



If this thing retials for 3999 i'm most likely going to wait until it comes down to 3500...before picking one up. Unless of course it gets some legendary reviews.


----------



## docsmith (Feb 3, 2015)

Am I the only one that finds a couple of things odd? 
[list type=decimal]
[*]We haven't seen any event announcements
[*]Canon doesn't typically announce 4 cameras and a lens at the same time. Typically, they give each their due
[/list]

I know that this is CR3 or to be treated as fact. But if true, why is Canon doing it this way? Announce the 5Ds on its own or with the EF 11-24. Then, two weeks later, announce the rebel and the EOS-M3.

While I have grown to trust this site and am very impressed by how accurate it has been this close to a release...I am not 100% sold on all of these being announced at once.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Feb 3, 2015)

docsmith said:


> But if true, why is Canon doing it this way?



New strategy? 

Check out this post:



Maiaibing said:


> Canon is finally acting on their deep DSLR sales troubles..
> [snip]
> *My notes from the conference call:*
> Plan to introduce more DSLR camera models than previous years to stimulate additional demand in this segment.


----------



## tphillips63 (Feb 3, 2015)

wockawocka said:


> This much dynamic range will do, ta


You know I expect you to rent and review one as soon as possible! Time, work, etc., is no excuse ;D


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 3, 2015)

5DS and 5DSR go together, so that's 2. The 11-24 Landscape lens is a perfect marriage to these new bodies, so you bring them out together. That's 3. 

Now you have the EOS M3 and a new upper level Rebel with perhaps a new sensor or the first rebel with DPAF. Those are big news and serve a totally different market than the first 3 pieces. So that's all 5.

Canon is going to blow a big part of it's wad at CP+ which is around the anniversary of the EOS system. They want to suck as much air out the room from everyone else as possible, making all other companies seem second tier. Plus, they have the 5D4 and the 1DX2 which will likely debut later this year... In otehr words Canon has planned 2015 to be a wall-to-wall new product marketing nuclear bomb. It's aggressive and I love it.


----------



## docsmith (Feb 3, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Canon has planned 2015 to be a wall-to-wall new product marketing nuclear bomb. It's aggressive and I love it.



Ok...I'd love to see it....maybe this is Canon just being uber aggressive and trying to suck all the air out of CP+. But, it is certainly a break from recent history.


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Feb 3, 2015)

docsmith said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Canon has planned 2015 to be a wall-to-wall new product marketing nuclear bomb. It's aggressive and I love it.
> ...



It's rumored that Sony is going to be making a huge power play soon, so Canon might finally be scared of their rabid market share grabbing. Canon might be a big, slow company, but when they feel truly threatened, they put the hammer down.


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 3, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> It's rumored that Sony is going to be making a huge power play soon, so Canon might finally be scared of their rabid market share grabbing. Canon might be a big, slow company, but when they feel truly threatened, they put the hammer down.



... or maybe a "hammer powered by Sony" ;D


----------



## 3kramd5 (Feb 3, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> docsmith said:
> 
> 
> > PureClassA said:
> ...



Shades of when AMD finally woke the guys at Intel up, and Intel acted decisively. If we're at a point where the established companies start feeling threatened, that's probably good thing.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 3, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> PhotographyFirst said:
> 
> 
> > docsmith said:
> ...



And AMD has not done terribly well ever since.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 3, 2015)

UPDATE: possible higher FPS in Crop. Canon designed/Sony produced?

http://www.canonwatch.com/cw2-canonsony-sensor-tidbits-sensor-designed-canon-manufactured-sony/


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 3, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> PhotographyFirst said:
> 
> 
> > Canon might be a big, slow company, but when they feel truly threatened, they put the hammer down.
> ...



I don't think computer cpus and digital camera systems are comparable: With each new computer customers buy, they don't care what's inside and chose the best offer. With dslr systems, when customers jump ship they probably do it for a longer time, so to turn the Canon supertanker around it'll take more than some nice new releases. 

Canon will have to show the market and their shareholders that they are willing and able to compete for the next couple of technology iterations and into the mirrorless era... having a large market share doesn't protect you forever. In Canon's favor is that dslrs aren't their singular point of sale, unless some other former market leaders...


----------



## 3kramd5 (Feb 3, 2015)

> > PureClassA said:
> >
> >
> > > It's rumored that Sony is going to be making a huge power play soon, so Canon might finally be scared of their rabid market share grabbing. Canon might be a big, slow company, but when they feel truly threatened, they put the hammer down.
> ...



Not in the desktop market anyway. I believe they do okay with their acquisition of ATi, although there too they play second fiddle (to nVidia).

Regardless, the point was that Intel for years just kinda sat around adding a 20 more 30% more cycles per second with each iteration. Then AMD introduced the Athlon and carved up a bit of the market. That's really what lit a fire under Intel, and since they've been putting out innovative products. 

We can hope that something similar will happen in digital cameras.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Feb 3, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > PhotographyFirst said:
> ...



With computers, you have the enthusiasts/geeks (like me) who care which *chipset* they use let alone processor manufacturer. With cameras, you have enthusiasts/geeks (like me) who are interested in architecture and low-level performance.

With computers, you have generic users who care about price and what's bundled. With cameras, you have generic users who care about price and what's bundled. 

Corporations like Canon mostly have to cater to the generic user; there aren't enough geeks.


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 3, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> With computers, you have the enthusiasts/geeks (like me) who care which *chipset* they use let alone processor manufacturer. With cameras, you have enthusiasts/geeks (like me) who are interested in architecture and low-level performance.



Sure, I used to build my own computers, choosing which mainboard with what chipset and whatnot to assemble - but nowadays it's all so generic that it's hardly worth it and imho only a few geeks are left with some brand attachment.

With dlsr, brand attachment isn't just based on the logo on the chipset, but on the whole system's usability (firmware, menus, lenses, flashes, software, postprocessing files, service). That's why I guess that the computer market is much more volatile than camera systems.


----------



## Tugela (Feb 3, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> PhotographyFirst said:
> 
> 
> > docsmith said:
> ...



Except that in this case the big company is Sony. Perhaps it is the other way around, and the sleeping giant that was awoken is Sony, not Canon. Canon are more like AMD and will probably go the same way.


----------



## Tugela (Feb 3, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > With computers, you have the enthusiasts/geeks (like me) who care which *chipset* they use let alone processor manufacturer. With cameras, you have enthusiasts/geeks (like me) who are interested in architecture and low-level performance.
> ...



Based on the number of naked motherboards sold, millions of people disagree with you.


----------



## Eldar (Feb 3, 2015)

Tugela said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > PhotographyFirst said:
> ...


I believe it is a bit far fetched to claim Sony is the sleeping giant of the camera world, especially DSLR. What did Sony sell year by year the last 20 years, compared to Canon? What is Sony´s lens line up worth next to Canon´s? Sony is big, but in this business they are still an embryo that may become something, whereas Canon has been on top for as long as I can remember.

I am looking forward to Friday like a child for Christmas


----------



## Tugela (Feb 3, 2015)

docsmith said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Canon has planned 2015 to be a wall-to-wall new product marketing nuclear bomb. It's aggressive and I love it.
> ...



They won't suck the air out of anything if they keep putting out products based on 3-4 year old technology. If they want to "suck all the air out of CP+" they are going to have to come up with next generation tech that is a step ahead of the competition, and that is very improbable.


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Feb 3, 2015)

Tugela said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > PhotographyFirst said:
> ...



Good point. Although Canon does still have an advantage of not having to outsource any of their lens development to 3rd parties. Sony is obviously more able to compete on the sensor front in terms of tech and cost. Which may explain the rapid release of bodies that are getting really really damn cheap. $2,000 or less for a 36MP full frame camera is pretty damn impressive right now. 

If I were Sony, I would be trying to snipe away Canon's lens engineers with big wads of cash. Boosting their own dev and taking away from Canon. It's probably already happening.


----------



## Tugela (Feb 3, 2015)

Eldar said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



Sony can draw on the insight, expertise and experience of the rest of their divisions however. Not to mention that they have a lot more resources available. If they make a serious effort in camera tech there is no way Canon are going to be able to keep up.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 3, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> It's rumored that Sony is going to be making a huge power play soon, so Canon might finally be scared of their rabid market share grabbing.



Nice rumor, but the facts don't support 'rabid market share grabbing' by Sony. They're still fighting for scraps, in market share terms.


----------



## jrista (Feb 3, 2015)

Eldar said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...




I don't know about sleeping giant...maybe sleeping dwarf at the moment.  But I see Samsung as the next major force. They have an extremely compelling product in the NX1. The programmable hardware with the whole "camera hardware apps" concept, the SDK they are developing (which sounds like it will rival Canon's for richness, if not surpass it), and the lenses they are starting to develop (like the 300mm f/2.8, which sounds like it will at least match Canon's for features...not sure about optical quality yet), etc. put Samsung in a position where they could, if they execute well, start to give Canon a run for the money. I think Samsung might actually bring the mirrorless market to life...as they actually seem to be doing it right. A camera that rivals the 7D II on key features, with solid DSLR-like ergonomics...just without the mirrorbox. 


I'm not calling them a giant...but I do believe they could become one in five to ten years. They certainly became the giant in the smartphone industry, and in less time than that.


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Feb 3, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> PhotographyFirst said:
> 
> 
> > It's rumored that Sony is going to be making a huge power play soon, so Canon might finally be scared of their rabid market share grabbing.
> ...


Correct, I meant market grabbing, ATTEMPT. My bad in choice of words.


----------



## Eldar (Feb 3, 2015)

Tugela said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...


Sony has a higher sales volume than Canon. But revenue is falling and they have been losing money for 4 of the last 5 years. In the same period, Canon has grown sales and made a healthy profit every year. Canon ticked in as No.1 on patents in the USA by a foreign company (any business), for the 10th year in a row. So who can draw on which resources ??


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 3, 2015)

Tugela said:


> Sony can draw on the insight, expertise and experience of the rest of their divisions however. *Not to mention that they have a lot more resources available. *



You're right, you shouldn't have mentioned it, or at least you might have bothered checking your facts before spouting nonsense. 

Canon: three main divisions, moderately diverse product portfolio, 42.3B market cap 

Sony: many divisions, very diverse product portfolio, 26.8B market cap

Now, who do you think has more resources available for camera development? Yeah, that's what I thought. :


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Feb 3, 2015)

jrista said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...



Good points. Samsung has the money and tech to compete. They just need better work on brand recognition and perception. They have the pull to get their products on top shelves in places like Best Buy, Costco, and Fred Meyer. 

I don't follow the TV market, but when I bought my last flat screen TV is was Samsung, and everyone I knew was buying Samsung. They dominated Sony and everyone else for price and quality at one time. My TV is still working great and I see no reason to upgrade. In fact, I am typing on it with a remote keyboard at this moment. It's also been a stellar computer monitor for me.


----------



## Eldar (Feb 3, 2015)

jrista said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...


That is more likely. Samsung is in a very strong financial position (both Sony and Canon are dwarfs in comparison) and they have shown in market after market that they are capable of making it. I believe, as you say, that the quality of their next lens releases will determine if they will make it.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Feb 3, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > With computers, you have the enthusiasts/geeks (like me) who care which *chipset* they use let alone processor manufacturer. With cameras, you have enthusiasts/geeks (like me) who are interested in architecture and low-level performance.
> ...



Every time I go to upgrade, I wonder if the time has come that it's cheaper to buy a ready-made system. In my experience (most recent build being several months ago), it's not. It's still cheaper to assemble you own, given equivalent components. Naturally, it comes with the potentially painful process of determining exactly what isn't working, and the annoying return trip to Fry's (or UPS) to return it. 

I don't have any brand attachment. In the past 5 years I've used Asus, MSI, Gigabyte, and EVGA motherboards; I've used Antec, PC Power & Cooling, and Corsair power supplies; I've used EVGA, XFX, Sapphire, and Asus video cards; I've used Patriot, Corsair, and Crucial memory. Spinning hard drives go to the best bang for the buck; SSDs I tend towards Samsung but also have Patriot. However, all my processors have been Intel. There's practically no competition at the performance level. There used to be. 



Tugela said:


> Except that in this case the big company is Sony. Perhaps it is the other way around, and the sleeping giant that was awoken is Sony, not Canon. Canon are more like AMD and will probably go the same way.



Sony is certainly a big company, but in this market they're AMD to Canon's Intel. 

Is it an entirely sound analogy? Certainly not. But may the "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" type of competition spur the production side of Canon to get together with the R&D side of Canon? Maybe. Hopefully.


----------



## jrista (Feb 3, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Sony can draw on the insight, expertise and experience of the rest of their divisions however. *Not to mention that they have a lot more resources available. *
> ...




Canon's largest business unit is their office equipment unit, with over 53% of revenues. The digital photography division has tanked in terms of revenue recently, due to the advent of smartphone cameras, and is only a part of their consumer equipment business (which also includes camcorders and printers, which are still big business.) 


Canon does innovate, however out of their thousands of patent filings a year, relatively few have to do with digital photography, and very few if any have to do with sensor development each year. If you take the ~10% they spend on R&D each year, that's about 4.5 billion dollars. If you figure Canon distributes those funds around their business units by size, then about 1.7 billion is spent on R&D on the consumer equipment business...most of that likely goes to photography equipment, and most of that probably goes to lens R&D, and a solid chunk probably goes to AF and metering R&D. Who knows how much goes to sensor R&D...but Canon isn't even a blip on the radar as far as sensor innovation goes.


In contrast, Sony's patent filings each year have more and more to do with digital photography and video, particularly sensors (one just has to look at image sensor's world blog to see Sony's name is among the top innovators, alongside Omnivision, Aptina, Samsung, Toshiba and a couple of others. Hell, even Rambus is a bigger innovator in the sensor market than Canon is...)


Sure, Canon may have more funds for R&D...but Sony seems to be investing more of what they have into camera technology than Canon does in total.


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## AvTvM (Feb 3, 2015)

Tugela said:


> Sony can draw on the insight, expertise and experience of the rest of their divisions however. Not to mention that they have a lot more resources available. If they make a serious effort in camera tech there is no way Canon are going to be able to keep up.


unless Sony really goes broke before that happens. ;D


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## raptor3x (Feb 3, 2015)

jrista said:


> If you take the ~10% they spend on R&D each year, that's about 4.5 million dollars. If you figure Canon distributes those funds around their business units by size, then about 1.7 million is spent on R&D on the consumer equipment business...most of that likely goes to photography equipment, and most of that probably goes to lens R&D, and a solid chunk probably goes to AF and metering R&D. Who knows how much goes to sensor R&D...but Canon isn't even a blip on the radar as far as sensor innovation goes.



1.7 million on R&D for an entire division of a major corporation seems way too low.


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## jrista (Feb 3, 2015)

raptor3x said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > If you take the ~10% they spend on R&D each year, that's about 4.5 million dollars. If you figure Canon distributes those funds around their business units by size, then about 1.7 million is spent on R&D on the consumer equipment business...most of that likely goes to photography equipment, and most of that probably goes to lens R&D, and a solid chunk probably goes to AF and metering R&D. Who knows how much goes to sensor R&D...but Canon isn't even a blip on the radar as far as sensor innovation goes.
> ...




Sorry, I used the wrong unit. It's 1.7 billion. That's a lot, however Sony has accumulated tens of billions in debt the last few years, the majority of which was invested into their sensor division.


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## dflt (Feb 3, 2015)

Why do people think that sensor R&D is all about consumer grade tools? Military, defense industry, maybe?


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## dufflover (Feb 3, 2015)

Money and resources doesn't necessarily translate into anything. ... you'd think Apple would come up with something super crazy with all their resources yeah?

/runs away 

CF card: even though SD cards have reached decent speeds now (and more importantly camera manufacturers are putting the correct spec'd slot in FFS!) the CF card can still be faster and I think just part of the 1-series and 5-series identifying features. I mean think about how "un-pro" it would be if a 5-series suddenly had a flip screen, no CF card, and a pop up flash - forget the other features, snobs would be talking it down like crap because of all the "n00b" features.


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## kphoto99 (Feb 3, 2015)

dufflover said:


> CF card: even though SD cards have reached decent speeds now (and more importantly camera manufacturers are putting the correct spec'd slot in FFS!) the CF card can still be faster and I think just part of the 1-series and 5-series identifying features. I mean think about how "un-pro" it would be if a 5-series suddenly had a flip screen, no CF card, and a pop up flash - forget the other features, snobs would be talking it down like crap because of all the "n00b" features.



CF card is a pro feature you say.

Let me see, in the back of my drawer I have a Canon camera that uses a CF card, so it must be pro. Is a PowerShot A300. Yes, definitely it is a pro camera with pro feature 8)
(Also no *pop up* flash, more pro)


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## AvTvM (Feb 3, 2015)

dufflover said:


> CF card: even though SD cards have reached decent speeds now (and more importantly camera manufacturers are putting the correct spec'd slot in FFS!) the CF card can still be faster and I think just part of the 1-series and 5-series identifying features. I mean think about how "un-pro" it would be if a 5-series suddenly had a flip screen, no CF card, and a pop up flash - forget the other features, snobs would be talking it down like crap because of all the "n00b" features.



Well, I generally don't give a damn what other people think or say about me or my gear. Life is way more pleasant that way.

I still have a stock of CF cards that I use in my 5D3, since the SD slot is basically unusable due to CCC [Canon Creative Crippling]. :

But the 5D3 is the only device in my possesion that still uses CF cards. I have skipped regular size SD cards and am standardizing on Sandisk Extreme Pro Micro SDXC cards - currently 90 MB/s which is fast enough to clear buffer speedily and I don't ever shoot video. I use the Micro-SD cards inside the "regular size SD-adapters", so they are the same size as regular SD cards (which I personally find quite good, have never lost one) and they are also protected quite well that way. I can put them straight into any camera with an SD slot - eg my n00by EOS M 8) - as well as many (non-Apple) phones, tablets and virtually all notebook computers. So I do not need an extra USB card reader any longer. 

I would like my 5D 3 to have a popup fill flash which also serves as optical master for Canon EX speedlites. And a built-in RT commander in addition - apparently this is still not featured in the 5D2/R. Cannot see anything "n00b" in using advanced controls over wireless flash setups.

And lastly, I would absolutely LOVE to have a 360 articulated TOUCH-Screen on any camera that I ever use. Love the touch screen on the EOS M - much quicker to change settings in Q-Menü that way and to select AF-field. 

If this makes me look "un-pro" in the eyes of the ignorant, then the better. It's less conspicuous, which helps in a lot of shooting situations. ;D


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## erjlphoto (Feb 3, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Anyone want to guess on the price?



5Ds 1999.95
5Ds r 5999.95 (evil smirk)


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## msatter (Feb 3, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> dufflover said:
> 
> 
> > CF card: even though SD cards have reached decent speeds now (and more importantly camera manufacturers are putting the correct spec'd slot in FFS!) the CF card can still be faster and I think just part of the 1-series and 5-series identifying features. I mean think about how "un-pro" it would be if a 5-series suddenly had a flip screen, no CF card, and a pop up flash - forget the other features, snobs would be talking it down like crap because of all the "n00b" features.
> ...



Canon will fullfil all those wishes....however it will take 15 years in 5 iterations.


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## msatter (Feb 3, 2015)

erjlphoto said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone want to guess on the price?
> ...



WHAT!! I thought that 'r' was standing for reduced price.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 3, 2015)

kphoto99 said:


> CF card is a pro feature you say.



You have to admire these marketing people - how do they manage to make cf appear "pro" and a swivel screen or pop-up flash "amateur"? With these markers, they don't even need to legitimize why a certain product costs xyz €/$ because every customer immediately sees how "pro" it is, i.e. how much worth it has to have.


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## unfocused (Feb 3, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> kphoto99 said:
> 
> 
> > CF card is a pro feature you say.
> ...



The crazy thing is, they don't even have to do anything. The customers themselves arbitrarily decide that certain features are not "pro." Look at the negative comments that get generated anytime someone suggests that a $3,000 camera ought to be at least as functional and connected as a cell phone – ability to navigate menus by touch screen, connectivity to the internet, basic photo editing functions – all things that would make life easier and offer more options for professionals, but whenever someone suggests that on this site, you get comment after comment from users who refuse to evolve.


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 3, 2015)

unfocused said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > kphoto99 said:
> ...



+100 

Lots of "disconnected fat old mirrorslappers" around here. ;D


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## Lee Jay (Feb 3, 2015)

unfocused said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > kphoto99 said:
> ...



I'd love to have a pop up flash on my 5D because it would be useful and I wouldn't have to carry my mini flash. Connectivity to the internet and basic photo editing functions would add no value for me as I'd never use them for anything, and I certainly wouldn't pay for a cell data plan for my camera.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Feb 3, 2015)

unfocused said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > kphoto99 said:
> ...



I'm all for value-added software features (basic editing, for example), provided they don't bog down the system or otherwise impede my usage (Lightroom seemed to get noticeably slower when they added things like the Book module, but it may have been a coincidence).

I don't mind features like GPS, but I have no need for them and therefore no desire to pay for them, and since I would (were they included), I prefer they be left off


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## bescki (Feb 3, 2015)

Does this have: 
d t
I hope it will have WIFI and Touch Screen


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## Arkarch (Feb 4, 2015)

For my purposes, a pop-up flash would be a waste... most of my lenses would cast shadows either because of barrel size or length. I do want to add a fill flash to my kit - probably a 400-series; but it needs to be an outboard flash with some distance from the lens.

Tilt screen - seems like that would be challenging to weatherproof; plus one more thing to break. Wifi or any other radio device also gets compromised by faraday cage effects of a metal body. 

What I really care about with the 5DS / R is IQ, DR, and Resolution. The ability to print a 30" at 300 DPI with better color fidelity and better DR is exactly what I need. I'll carry a second camera for everything else - I do anyway as backup in the field - things do break.

From that point of view - I see the 5DS for those who already have a general purpose camera. It is a specialist rig - a second camera. Mix it with a 5D3 or 1DX.


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## Woody (Feb 4, 2015)

I will be keen on EOS M3 if it has DPAF. I don't care about dynamic range at low ISO for this camera. Only my primary camera needs it, the M3 is my back-up.

Also keen on 50 f/1.4 ring-USM update.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 4, 2015)

Arkarch said:


> Tilt screen - seems like that would be challenging to weatherproof; plus one more thing to break. Wifi or any other radio device also gets compromised by faraday cage effects of a metal body.



Those are rediculous ideas. There is no difficulty in weatherproofing, or even waterproofing, a swivel screen, Olympus have done it with a P&S. And we are well past the age of not understanding radio, EyeFi cards work perfectly in 1 series all metal bodies, you could put the antenna in the card door with a 100% metal body and still get interference free results.


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## Arkarch (Feb 4, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> Arkarch said:
> 
> 
> > Tilt screen - seems like that would be challenging to weatherproof; plus one more thing to break. Wifi or any other radio device also gets compromised by faraday cage effects of a metal body.
> ...



The door would be a good spot,, I agree. its generally clear. 

So why not MiFi cellular? It would be much easier to mark and upload images direct to your personal or clients server. That seems a better use case than WiFi when I am in the middle of the desert. Yes, I have done Eye-Fi to MiFi to Server for "live" event posting. 

While I too could use a tilt, I am still dubious about having it. I know how well I manage to break things - broke another remote shutter able this past trip - could just be me.


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## steven kessel (Feb 4, 2015)

I've about decided to buy this camera, depending on its price. North of $4000 and I will quickly lose interest.

That said, I still have a few questions. First, how will the crop format work? Is the camera going to utilize just a reduced portion of the sensor? If so, well, then I'd probably prefer to do my cropping in Photoshop. Second, is the fps burst speed going to be linked to the format? Will it increase when a crop format is used (as is the case with the Nikon D810) or will it always max at 5 fps? 

I have a couple of 5Diiis that are a long way from retirement and they will still be my go-to cameras for birds in flight and for long telephoto work. I envision the 5Ds as being ideal for landscapes and for closeup photography. Probably 50% of what I do involves closeups, using a 180mm Macro lens, so this camera ought to be a real workhorse for me.

Depending on price, that is.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 4, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> I'd love to have a pop up flash on my 5D because it would be useful and I wouldn't have to carry my mini flash.



But the posers can't have that because then they won't look like real pros as they wander about.


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## PureClassA (Feb 4, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:
 

> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > I'd love to have a pop up flash on my 5D because it would be useful and I wouldn't have to carry my mini flash.
> ...



Eh...pop ups are mostly useless. But how about putting a pop up on there that does nothing more than blast a low power wide strobe to trigger slaves? I'd love that!


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## benperrin (Feb 4, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > I'd love to have a pop up flash on my 5D because it would be useful and I wouldn't have to carry my mini flash.
> ...



The pop up flash is pure garbage. An on camera small light source is always a bad idea even as an optical flash trigger. There is no point in including this on a professional camera. It has nothing to do with looks. I'd rather them use that space for something I might actually use.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 4, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> And we are well past the age of not understanding radio



Tell that to Apple circa 2010


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## Lee Jay (Feb 4, 2015)

benperrin said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



You're just wrong. What makes you think I'm taking flash dominated exposures of people up close? I'm often using it for fill, and only occasionally of people. I had to buy a little hot shoe mounted flash to replace the missing popup. If I always carried a 580 I'd have to leave something behind that I want to carry, probably my 35/1.4L.


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## vjlex (Feb 4, 2015)

Honestly, popup flash is one of the things I have missed the most since jumping from crop to FF. If it's not useful for you- fine. But even a popup flash is useful in some situations where I don't want to haul my 580EX and batteries for it along. There's really no good reason not to include a popup flash (I don't buy the weather-sealing excuse; I used to trek through lots of different terrain with a Rebel XTi and popup flash and never had problems). It's not like having one means you're FORCED to use it for every shot.

Regarding CF cards, I like the format. I don't particularly want Canon to dump the format. While I don't buy new CF cards anymore though, I have been buying inexpensive, large capacity SD and micro-SD cards which I put in a CF adapter. I bought one adapter that holds 2 micro-SD cards and another one that holds a regular size SD. So now I have 2 128 Gb "CF cards" I can use in my camera. They record video fine, and they didn't even come close to breaking the bank.


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## benperrin (Feb 4, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> You're just wrong. What makes you think I'm taking flash dominated exposures of people up close? I'm often using it for fill, and only occasionally of people. I had to buy a little hot shoe mounted flash to replace the missing popup. If I always carried a 580 I'd have to leave something behind that I want to carry, probably my 35/1.4L.


Even for fill it is terrible. Use a reflector or modified flash off camera and the results are a lot better. Small light source in relation to the subject = harsh ugly light. Keep that light source on camera and the results are worse. Also I didn't make any assumptions as to what type of images people are taking. Sorry, but it's just not a professional feature.


----------



## raptor3x (Feb 4, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> Arkarch said:
> 
> 
> > Tilt screen - seems like that would be challenging to weatherproof; plus one more thing to break. Wifi or any other radio device also gets compromised by faraday cage effects of a metal body.
> ...



1 series memory card doors are made of plastic.

EDIT: Actually I take that back, both my 1Ds3 and 1DX have a really smooth paint on the inside of the memory card door that makes it feel plasticky but they're cold to the touch so they're probably metal.


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## jcfalconer (Feb 4, 2015)

What is "iTR AF"?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 4, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



they are great for a little fill when the need pops up totally unexpectedly or for a little fill on some snapshots with friends or what not


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 4, 2015)

benperrin said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



oh really?

and suppose something unexpected happens and you are close but have no flash and they need a shot and there is terrible back lighting?

it's happened to me and others and it was interesting to see all the pros asking to borrow the xxD people had for the shot and tossing their 1D's to the side

or maybe you are on a trip and mostly taking landscapes but then want a few shots with friends now and then and don't wanna be dragging a flash along, just one more thing to be a menace and a drag


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 4, 2015)

benperrin said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > You're just wrong. What makes you think I'm taking flash dominated exposures of people up close? I'm often using it for fill, and only occasionally of people. I had to buy a little hot shoe mounted flash to replace the missing popup. If I always carried a 580 I'd have to leave something behind that I want to carry, probably my 35/1.4L.
> ...



great if you happen to run around EVERYWHERE, ALL THE TIME, with a reflector

maybe you are coming back at night and suddenly a tree frog pops out?

maybe the Stanley Cup came for a secret visit without prior announcement and they want one pick and everyone is backlit and it has to be taken in that direction and you were not on call but happened to just have your camera with you but no flash and nobody else was close enough to make it in time? I was sure glad I was still using an xxD camera then and, for the record, so was the other guy who showed up and tossed his 1D aside and used my xxD for his shot too. He didn't thumb his nose at the xxD and get all snooty and ridiculous, he was just like awesome, this is great, gotta love the pop-up, all cameras should have this.

etc.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 4, 2015)

benperrin said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > You're just wrong. What makes you think I'm taking flash dominated exposures of people up close? I'm often using it for fill, and only occasionally of people. I had to buy a little hot shoe mounted flash to replace the missing popup. If I always carried a 580 I'd have to leave something behind that I want to carry, probably my 35/1.4L.
> ...



You think it's worse than nothing?

Obviously off camera flash is often better (not always, by the way, or ring flashes wouldn't sell). But the usual other option is no flash at all. When I'm traveling or in a highly portable mode (no umbrellas, no external flashes) I'd rather have something than nothing. I was recently in a cave and used my little micro flash for fill in a crevasse that had no light at all. An off camera flash wasn't available and probably wouldn't have worked anyway because it would have been too far from the lens.


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## WorkonSunday (Feb 4, 2015)

is the new 11-24mm still rumored to be 3000 USD? :-[


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## benperrin (Feb 4, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> oh really?
> 
> and suppose something unexpected happens and you are close but have no flash and they need a shot and there is terrible back lighting?
> 
> ...


I would go back and forth with you all night but I don't think it would get us very far. There are solutions to all of those problems and I don't think the popup flash is the correct one.

When considering light we have to remember 3 main factors; quality, quantity and direction. A popup flash can only address the issue of quantity, which stills leaves poor quality and bad direction. Is that acceptable to you as a photographer? It might well be and that is totally fine but for me (and this doesn't have to apply to anyone else) I find that light to be lacking. YMMV.

Anyway, it's all a pointless discussion. Canon won't include a popup flash on the 5d and 1d series anyway.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 4, 2015)

benperrin said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > oh really?
> ...



Correct or not, it might be the only one. Again, would you rather have nothing, or something?


> Anyway, it's all a pointless discussion. Canon won't include a popup flash on the 5d and 1d series anyway.



Which is stupid of them. The Nikon D800 series has one.


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## PhotographyFirst (Feb 4, 2015)

dilbert said:


> On models with a built-in flash, it also doubles as a strobe for AF assistance.
> 
> Back on some of the EOS SLRs, there was a separate red light for that.
> 
> With the 1D and 5D series, there is no AF assist at all.



The AF assist on my Elan IIe actually saved my life once when we got stuck out in frigid weather at night with a broken flashlight. We had to navigate a treacherous icy path over a raging river in pure darkness. The lamp was just enough to keep us from stepping in the wrong spots to our deaths. Waiting until morning would have meant certain hypothermia. 

How about them apples?


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## Marsu42 (Feb 4, 2015)

benperrin said:


> The pop up flash is pure garbage. An on camera small light source is always a bad idea even as an optical flash trigger. There is no point in including this on a professional camera.



There you go - whatever makes you think a 6d (or 5d2, 5d3) is a "professional" camera? What would be the pro:amateur ratio with these - maybe 1:10000? Nikon has it on their ff cameras, so they probably aren't "pro" 

I agree that the pop-up flash isn't usable for a lot of situations (esp. too weak for bounce), but I've come to like it as a quick optical master or af assist on my 60d - sometimes even the flash being near the optical axis is an advantage for fill.



PhotographyFirst said:


> The AF assist on my Elan IIe actually saved my life once when we got stuck out in frigid weather at night with a broken flashlight.



Probably material for a Nikon marketing campaign as in "death by lack of Canon ff features"  ... but I know the use of the pop-up flash, too, as I used to flash my way around pitch black cellars when I didn't have another light source with me.


----------



## vscd (Feb 4, 2015)

> oh really?
> and suppose something unexpected happens and you are close but have no flash and they need a shot and there is terrible back lighting?



If you carry a 1D Pro Series camera and you have no flash you should set up the ISO  If you miss it to a real shoot you should think about your job. Popup-flashes are really useless, they do nothing except of flashing something near to death. It's not the problem to have it in the cam, it's the problem that you carry it with the cam for 99% of the time, not using it. You make the body bigger, heavier, more prone to water and the viewfinder is more complicated for a decent 100% view. The flash even sucks on your batterylife. You can Put a 270EX on your Body every time you go out. 

Nikon has a flash in the body? Wow. Leica doesn't. And the real Pro Models are D3s and D4 not the D800... guess what. They have no flash 8)


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## AvTvM (Feb 4, 2015)

vscd said:


> > oh really?
> > and suppose something unexpected happens and you are close but have no flash and they need a shot and there is terrible back lighting?
> 
> 
> ...



quite funny to argue with size constraints for a tiny pop-up flash with respect to a BEHEMOTH Canon EOS 1D body. ;D

As far as "professional" is concerned, I would expect either a (optical master capable) pop-up flash in any (large) DSLR body OR since we are in 2015 and talking about Canon ... an even tinier RT-radio wireless commander built right into the camera. Ideally in addition to pop-up flash, since the RT commander cannot provide fill flash capability in a pinch nor AF assist in a pinch. 

That's what I would consider "professional". And it would be UNIQUE for Canon. No Nikon or Sony has a RT flash system. ANd more 600EX-RTs would probably be sold ... 8)


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## Marsu42 (Feb 4, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> quite funny to argue with size constraints for a tiny pop-up flash with respect to a BEHEMOTH Canon EOS 1D body. ;D



Good observation  and it proves that people go to some lengths to rationalize their current idea of what's "pro" and valuable.



AvTvM said:


> That's what I would consider "professional". And it would be UNIQUE for Canon. No Nikon or Sony has a RT flash system. And more 600EX-RTs would probably be sold ... 8)



The only reason apart from simply money grabbing I can come up with that it's difficult or near-impossible to build in an rt transmitter into the camera body. Remember that the flash sync *relies* on 100% valid split-second communication over potentially large distances, it's not like wifi "wait and re-transmit" or "update every other minute" gps. Yongnuo has shown how not to do it with their dodgy st-e3 clone, and they've certainly tried...


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## AvTvM (Feb 4, 2015)

Yongnuo and other "reverse engineering" Chinese manufacturers cannot possibly serve as a benchmark for what Canon might be able to built into their cameras ... 

I can see no reason for not building a fully-blown "COMM" module into large DSLR bodies. With the following components, ALL of them - as in many small smartphones:
* WiFi - latest mainstream iteration (currently ac)
* NFC
* GPS
* Canon only: RT commander
all of them separatly switchable by user, of course.
Antenna/s: always built into LCD bezel/frame on rear of camera. More than enough spacxe there. And no shielding metal either. 

And one version, in which the power cable to the COM module is not built in. For those markets where odd-ball communications laws and ferquency crap make communicating devices "illegal". 

Problem solved, next please!


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## Marsu42 (Feb 4, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> Yongnuo and other "reverse engineering" Chinese manufacturers cannot possibly serve as a benchmark for what Canon might be able to built into their cameras ...



Sure, but it does serve as an example that after due consideration, "unreliable" can be considered worse than "not at all".



AvTvM said:


> Antenna/s: always built into LCD bezel/frame on rear of camera. More than enough spacxe there. And no shielding metal either.



They should then put sviwel screens into their "pro" cameras after all, if you fan it out it should improve the connection


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## weixing (Feb 4, 2015)

Hi,


AvTvM said:


> I can see no reason for not building a fully-blown "COMM" module into large DSLR bodies. With the following components, ALL of them - as in many small smartphones:
> * WiFi - latest mainstream iteration (currently ac)
> * NFC
> * GPS
> ...


 If you built in the LCD bezel/frame, only the rear is free of obstruction and shielding... the wifi might not work properly if you are in front of the camera and GPS might take very long to get a position lock. IMHO, people will probably complaint if you don't include the features, but if you include the features and it's not working properly, people will curse and swear... IMHO, if you cannot guarantee it'll work properly, it's better not to have it in the first place.

Have a nice day.


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## whitedjp (Feb 4, 2015)

I'm so excited to see this camera being released soon, it will probably be my upgrade I use for a long time  I am super excited with almost all of the specs released but the one thing that I feel slightly disappointed about is the autofocus system. It looks to me that Canon might be tweaking the 5d3 autofocus for this body :s Although I think the 5d3 autofocus is no slouch whatsoever, after seeing the comparisons for the 5d3 and 7d2 for focusing from Digitalrev, I really hope they would extend it to a premium camera of this sort! Im going to be one poor uni student in a couple months


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## calotype (Feb 4, 2015)

Not written in this first spec, but  I hope  I want USB3 pleeease !!


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## scyrene (Feb 4, 2015)

Although I've done without on-camera flash for a couple of years, it does have one advantage: its internally powered. Whatever its other drawbacks, and there are many, it doesn't require you carrying AA batteries or a separate charger. Of course the flipside is I guess it drains the camera battery quicker.

The 90EX is a great little unit for triggering other flashes, or as an emergency light source akin to in-camera flash, but its battery life is so terrible (taking size AAA) that its usefulness is really limited imho.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 4, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> Yongnuo and other "reverse engineering" Chinese manufacturers cannot possibly serve as a benchmark for what Canon might be able to built into their cameras ...
> 
> I can see no reason for not building a fully-blown "COMM" module into large DSLR bodies. With the following components, ALL of them - as in many small smartphones:
> * WiFi - latest mainstream iteration (currently ac)
> ...



GPS would be flaky when it's in the vertical position. the Wifi would be very directional there too since behind the antenna is metal - and would even have to be even more shielded because of EMI,etc.


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## Famateur (Feb 4, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> What makes you think I'm taking flash dominated exposures of people up close? I'm often using it for fill, and only occasionally of people.



This.

It seems that those who poo-poo the pop-up flash only think of it as a primary light source when light is low. In such a scenario, of course -- it's awful. I use it in the opposite scenario, though -- modest fill in bright daylight when the subject is back-lit or somewhat shaded. It adds catch lights, too.


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## Famateur (Feb 4, 2015)

benperrin said:


> Even for fill it is terrible. Use a reflector or modified flash off camera and the results are a lot better. Small light source in relation to the subject = harsh ugly light.



Yes, the larger the source in relation to the subject, the softer the light. However, there's more to light quality than relative size. Intensity is another factor. When using pop-up flash for fill, turn down the intensity. You can add enough light to a back-lit or slightly shaded subject to brighten it without adding harsh shadows.

Sure, a reflector or off-camera flash with modifier is more likely to give the most pleasing results, but it's not always possible or convenient. You either have to hold it at the correct angle with one hand while shooting with the other, or have a stand (more to carry) or an assistant (not always possible).

With a bit of practice adjusting pop-up flash intensity, and in certain scenarios, using a pop-up flash works well for fill and is very convenient. If it's possible to have one without compromising weather sealing, why not have it? People who don't want to use it can leave it down.


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## Famateur (Feb 4, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> As far as "professional" is concerned, I would expect either a (optical master capable) pop-up flash in any (large) DSLR body OR since we are in 2015 and talking about Canon ... an even tinier RT-radio wireless commander built right into the camera. Ideally in addition to pop-up flash, since the RT commander cannot provide fill flash capability in a pinch nor AF assist in a pinch.



Would be cool if Canon did this. I'm sure the technical challenges can be solved -- Canon has some pretty brilliant/creative engineers.

I think the main reason we don't see the built-in RF commander yet is that hot-shoe commanders still sell. I think it's a matter of time, though, before it happens. Might be a long time, but I'm confident there will eventually be built-in commanders in studio-oriented bodies.

Maybe Yongnuo will start making bodies, too.  :-X


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## Lawliet (Feb 4, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> The only reason apart from simply money grabbing I can come up with that it's difficult or near-impossible to build in an rt transmitter into the camera body. Remember that the flash sync *relies* on 100% valid split-second communication over potentially large distances, it's not like wifi "wait and re-transmit" or "update every other minute" gps.



The V-Grip for the 645DF+ contains an Air remote, so the whole concept is possible - if Canon can't do it that would be a flaw in their design or implementation. Esp. considering the different ranges and possible shutter speeds.


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## 9VIII (Feb 4, 2015)

weixing said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> AvTvM said:
> ...



What they should do is have an exposed metal strip running across in front of the hot shoe, or maybe just use the hot shoe itself?


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## raptor3x (Feb 4, 2015)

Famateur said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > What makes you think I'm taking flash dominated exposures of people up close? I'm often using it for fill, and only occasionally of people.
> ...



Let's not forget that the cool Canon fullframe viewfinder hump would look way less cool if you stuck a pop-up flash on it.


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## Famateur (Feb 4, 2015)

raptor3x said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



LOL...good point.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 4, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > On models with a built-in flash, it also doubles as a strobe for AF assistance.
> ...



Wow, now there you go!
Can't get a better or more dramatic than this one!


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## paulrossjones (Feb 4, 2015)

calotype said:


> Not written in this first spec, but  I hope  I want USB3 pleeease !!



it has to be- how are you going to move 50mp files? the 7d mk2 has usb3, so my guess it will have it.

paul


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 4, 2015)

vscd said:


> > oh really?
> > and suppose something unexpected happens and you are close but have no flash and they need a shot and there is terrible back lighting?
> 
> 
> ...



How does that fix heavy backlighting? Especially with Canon sensors that have low DR?



> If you miss it to a real shoot you should think about your job. Popup-flashes are really useless, they do nothing except of flashing something near to death.



Nonsense. For a little fill, if nothing else is available they are a heck of a lot better than the nothing else available. 

Or as I say, maybe you wandering back and it's dark and then out of nowhere a Luna Moth or a tree frog appears, the pop-up can mean zero shot vs a shot. It won't happen often, but it's happened to me three times over the last five years.

Not everyone is always on the job or on a real shoot, but sometimes an urgent call comes in our of nowhere or you run into something unexpected or you are just on vacation and not caring about flash photography but then you suddenly wouldn't mind if a snapshot with a friend had a little fill.

What the what does the pop-up hurt? If you'd rather use nothing than something or only shoot under 100% prepared conditions then simply don't use it!




> It's not the problem to have it in the cam, it's the problem that you carry it with the cam for 99% of the time, not using it. You make the body bigger, heavier, more prone to water and the viewfinder is more complicated for a decent 100% view.



popup flash weights like 2 ounces or something



> The flash even sucks on your batterylife. You can Put a 270EX on your Body every time you go out.



270EX is a bulky mess to drag around all the time

I did finally get a sunpack which is really small, although it's still easy enough to forget.



> Nikon has a flash in the body? Wow. Leica doesn't. And the real Pro Models are D3s and D4 not the D800... guess what. They have no flash 8)



And real pros, not posers, don't brag about how it's so pro and cool that they have no pop-up.


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## AvTvM (Feb 4, 2015)

rrcphoto said:


> GPS would be flaky when it's in the vertical position. the Wifi would be very directional there too since behind the antenna is metal - and would even have to be even more shielded because of EMI,etc.



Any 1 and 5 series Canon EOS including 5Ds/R does have a top LCD as well, right? Whcih makes at least TWO good spots to place radio communications antennae of all sorts and kinds in all sorts of orientations. Third one could be put around the lens mount bajonet up front .... etc. 

Problem solved, next please. ;D


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## privatebydesign (Feb 4, 2015)

Can anybody show me a 'good' photograph where a pop up flash actually made the image? By 'good' I mean an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family, ie, if a P&S or phone could have taken it then we are just relegating our DSLR's to that level, not lifting our image making to a higher level.

I am not elitist and don't consider this a 'pro' vs 'amateur' argument, but I just cannot see the point of them other than as remote flash controllers, and they are pretty limited for that, besides as we now have the RF system they have even less use. 

For instance I always use lens hoods, I cannot think of a lens I own where shadowing would not be an issue. I, for one, don't want a pop up flash on any camera I own for purely practical reasons.


----------



## rrcphoto (Feb 4, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > GPS would be flaky when it's in the vertical position. the Wifi would be very directional there too since behind the antenna is metal - and would even have to be even more shielded because of EMI,etc.
> ...



for GPS perhaps. however that still makes wifi very directional.

ideally they would need at least two or three antennas in various areas of the body, to get around the bulky layer of metal that is surrounding most of a modern top end DSLR made by canon or Nikon. A lot of additional shielding and engineering.

Listen if you think it's easy - go patent it because neither canon OR Nikon have added full communications in without a fair amount of plastic in the body.

do you think it's just because canon wanted to that they made the top shell of the 6D entirely out of plastic to support wifi and GPS? or that Nikon made the D750 out of polycarbonate to support Wifi as well?

smh..backyard engineers...everything is easy.


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## Lee Jay (Feb 4, 2015)

My son was asleep inside his infant car seat with the cover in place over his head. I saw him smiling in his sleep. I grabbed by 10D, pushed the pop up flash button and fired. This shot could not have been taken with a 550EX (my off-camera flash at the time) because it would have been too tall to fit under that top cover on the car seat. If I had backed away, the cover would have shaded the flash. Of course, the flash also wasn't on the camera at the time since I had just been out side doing something else, and the smile lasted just a couple of seconds.


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## candyman (Feb 4, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> My son was asleep inside his infant car seat with the cover in place over his head. I saw him smiling in his sleep. I grabbed by 10D, pushed the pop up flash button and fired. This shot could not have been taken with a 550EX (my off-camera flash at the time) because it would have been too tall to fit under that top cover on the car seat. If I had backed away, the cover would have shaded the flash. Of course, the flash also wasn't on the camera at the time since I had just been out side doing something else, and the smile lasted just a couple of seconds.


Looks like he is dreaming of the new 5Ds  
Very nice photo


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## Lee Jay (Feb 4, 2015)

candyman said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > My son was asleep inside his infant car seat with the cover in place over his head. I saw him smiling in his sleep. I grabbed by 10D, pushed the pop up flash button and fired. This shot could not have been taken with a 550EX (my off-camera flash at the time) because it would have been too tall to fit under that top cover on the car seat. If I had backed away, the cover would have shaded the flash. Of course, the flash also wasn't on the camera at the time since I had just been out side doing something else, and the smile lasted just a couple of seconds.
> ...



I sure wish I could sleep like that!


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 4, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> My son was asleep inside his infant car seat with the cover in place over his head.



It's a very nice 'family memory' type of image, but if you're posting in response to the below, it doesn't fit. 



privatebydesign said:


> Can anybody show me a 'good' photograph where a pop up flash actually made the image? By 'good' I mean an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family, ie, if a P&S or phone could have taken it then we are just relegating our DSLR's to that level, not lifting our image making to a higher level.


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## Lee Jay (Feb 4, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > My son was asleep inside his infant car seat with the cover in place over his head.
> ...



I have more, but searching for images for which the pop up is used rather than an external is very difficult since both just show up in the EXIF data as "flash fired". I just happened to have that one handy.


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## AvTvM (Feb 4, 2015)

@Lee Jay: really nice image!
Plus it demonstrates very well, how a pop-up flash can not only be "better than nothing" ... but "much better". 8)


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## privatebydesign (Feb 4, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> @Lee Jay: really nice image!
> Plus it demonstrates very well, how a pop-up flash can not only be "better than nothing" ... but "much better". 8)



But it doesn't demonstrate how having a pop up flash on a DSLR is any better than having a phone or a P&S.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 4, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > @Lee Jay: really nice image!
> ...



Of course it does - if the 5ds would have a pop-up flash, the image would be 50mp - try that with your phone 



privatebydesign said:


> Can anybody show me a 'good' photograph where a pop up flash actually made the image? By 'good' I mean an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family



Probably you'll say that any photo one might present cannot be good because it's pop-up flash style  ... but I used this flash type for a while in the zoo for insect/snake/... macro shots. If you manage to get around the harsh drop shadow the tiny flash can do nice fill shots, though I admit I'm too lazy to dig one out atm.

The most annoying problem is that the flash reflection in the eye is really ugly, and the flash isn't powerful enough to be used with a round diffuser. After that, I switched to a 430ex2 and used both internal and external flash in conjunction, again the pop-up can do ok for a bit of fill as it's very near the optical axis.


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## theroadie (Feb 4, 2015)

As a primarily studio photographer, I couldn't' be happier with the proposed specs. As long as ISO 100 is clean with a good DR, I see no reason to complain about not having an insane high/noisy ISO (and everything else the early posters were complaining about). Regarding the current rants over popup flash, it seems that a lot of people here are not getting that this is a fairly specialized camera. Much like with the 60Da, Canon is targeting a specific market with these models. This isn't a take-snaps-of-the-family product. It's very much geared towards landscapes and studio work. Both places where extreme detail is king and a popup flash is not needed. Sure Canon could shoe horn one in. Make the hump above the viewfinder a bit bigger and add a few more ounces to an already hefty product (shoot for six hours and tell the that every little ounce isn't a big deal), but why? If someone is going to look at a $3500 professional product and not buy it because it doesn't have feature "x" that most professionals don't use (it may be handy, but a crappy little light is a crappy little light), maybe they need to look at a different product Canon makes several to choose from. No camera will ever please everyone, so why not just try to please the people in the market segment who will actually buy it? Yes, wifi and GPS would be nice in certain conditions, but for myself I will gladly forgo a little convenience for quality.


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## AvTvM (Feb 4, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > @Lee Jay: really nice image!
> ...



... not at small web size as shown here. But view the image full size on a 5k iMac display today and it will be better than any smartphone pic ... a lot better! And view it on the 8k TV set and monitors in 2 years. Not to mention those 16k TV sets we'll all have once the little guy turns 18. 8)


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## Lee Jay (Feb 4, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > @Lee Jay: really nice image!
> ...



First of all, a phone doesn't have a flash, it has an LED. A 1/15th of a second burst from an LED doesn't do the same thing as a 1/1000th of a second Xenon flash burst. Second, they are weaker than a P&S flash, which itself is weaker than a pop up (GN 2 or so versus GN 12 or so).

Attached is a recent one. This was taken at full flash power, ISO 1600, f/2.8, 1/5th with a 15mm fisheye on a full-frame camera. Can't do that with a P&S or a phone. The entire central area except that green section was totally unlit and so would have been totally black without the flash.


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## Lee Jay (Feb 4, 2015)

theroadie said:


> Regarding the current rants over popup flash, it seems that a lot of people here are not getting that this is a fairly specialized camera. Much like with the 60Da, Canon is targeting a specific market with these models. This isn't a take-snaps-of-the-family product. It's very much geared towards landscapes and studio work. Both places where extreme detail is king and a popup flash is not needed.



The regular 5D series is the do-it-all camera (sports, travel, family, studio, etc.). I won't be buying this one but I do have a 5D and would like to buy a 5DIV when it comes out, and a pop up flash is a pretty big feature for me on a camera like that. My 5D is my vacation camera. I bought a little Sunpac flash to make up for the lack of a pop up. It's a hassle to carry, it's not very good (exposure is unreliable), and it's often in the bag because it's this little weak thing that sticks off the shoe and catches on everything, so I keep it out of the way most of the time.


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## kphoto99 (Feb 4, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> Can anybody show me a 'good' photograph where a pop up flash actually made the image? By 'good' I mean an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family, ie, if a P&S or phone could have taken it then we are just relegating our DSLR's to that level, not lifting our image making to a higher level.



Does this qualify?


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## privatebydesign (Feb 4, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



Yes, and as far as I can see it still doesn't qualify as 'good', that is _"By 'good' I mean an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family"_. It is a crappy picture of a cave that could be done vastly 'better' with more time and effort with the gear you have.

I am not being personal here, the question was becoming a pissing contest between people that described the feature as 'not pro' and those that debunked it and those posters. So my challenge was, show me a 'pro' image (that I maybe limitingly suggested could be defined as _"an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family"_) that was made because of having a pop up flash as illumination. I am not saying for some people a pop up flash isn't useful, I am saying for commercial work, ie pro use, it *is* a useless 'feature' particularly now we have the RT flash system.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 4, 2015)

kphoto99 said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Can anybody show me a 'good' photograph where a pop up flash actually made the image? By 'good' I mean an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family, ie, if a P&S or phone could have taken it then we are just relegating our DSLR's to that level, not lifting our image making to a higher level.
> ...



Not as far as I can see. Would a discriminating stock agency take it?


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## Lee Jay (Feb 4, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> kphoto99 said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



Who cares? I don't do stock, and what other people often love, I usually hate, and often vice-versa. My goal is to get the images I want, not the images others want.


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## dufflover (Feb 4, 2015)

ahhh, just like the excuses for not putting image stabilization on anything less than 70mm : 
If it's there and you don't need it, don't use it. Except in the case of some camera features stabilization actually takes some decent effort to implement well; flash, GPS, WiFi, swivel or touch screen etc. are a few cents/dollars a pop with all the base ground work already completed.

Funnily enough for bodies like these I'm a bit more forgiving on things like lack of WiFi and GPS, except I don't make excuses on behalf of Canon on why they aren't there. GPS on a landscape cam makes good sense to me. Even a flippy screen for easier LV shooting while it's on a tripod is handy at times.


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## AvTvM (Feb 4, 2015)

the entire question is not, "is a pop-up flash good enough to produce professional images as good as carefully lit studio images with a full lighting setup?". Nobody claims it is. Pop-up flash is a useful tool when no other lighting options are immediately available. Not more. But not less, either.

the question is: would a majority of potential buyers find a popup flash useful in a specific camera. If potential customers ever were asked - rather than only 10 hand-selected "arch-conservative Canon Explorers of mirrorslapping" - probably around 70-80% of all potential buyers would like to have a built-in pop flash in ANY camera. Especially if that little pop-up also serves as wireless speedlite commander. 

The percentage is very likely much larger than those who want "advanced video capabilities" in every DSLR. 

And that little pop-up flash also costs very little to implement, otherwise it would not be included in vritually any € 99 powershot digicam. 

re. "un-Pro" 
7D II is "as specialized and professional" a camera as 5D S / R are going to be. 7D II does have a pop-up flash. As had the 7D. Nikon FX cams like the rather professional D810 also have a pop-up flash. 

Not many reports about "wheathersealing problems", "broken off pop-.up flashes in the field" around. All those "un-pro" myths are solidly debunked. 

No, this is no "rant". It is my opinion.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 4, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > kphoto99 said:
> ...



And that is absolutely 100% fine by me, and the 5D MkIV having a pop up flash is important for you personally, but in the spirit of the thread and by your own admission that makes it a 'pro' feature. 

As I said, I have no problem with people wanting one, and using it on the occasions it is useful, but it isn't a commercially viable illumination technique, and because of that it has no place on 'pro' camera bodies.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 4, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> the entire question is not, "is a pop-up flash good enough to produce professional images as good as carefully lit studio images with a full lighting setup?". Nobody claims it is. Pop-up flash is a useful tool when no other lighting options are immediately available. Not more. But not less, either.



I agree, but that wasn't the question I asked. For those that feel a pop up flash has a place on a 'pro' camera my request is simple, _"show me a 'good' photograph where a pop up flash actually made the image? By 'good' I mean an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family, ie, if a P&S or phone could have taken it then we are just relegating our DSLR's to that level, not lifting our image making to a higher level."_


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## PureClassA (Feb 4, 2015)

So I found this to make things interesting. James Miller is a cinema/video guy in the UK who now works some with Philip Bloom. Apparently Miller tore down his 5D3 a couple years back and ditched the AA filter. Here's what he got:

http://www.eoshd.com/2012/03/james-miller-removes-optical-low-pass-filter-from-5d-mark-iii-for-resolution-increase/

Obviously more detail without AA, but I can damn sure see the aliasing particularly in fine edges of pavement stripes and in the parked cars. Does the added detail (false, noise, real, otherwise) outweigh the use of the AA. Miller seems to think Canon "used too strong an AA" to begin with.

That said... This is a 22MP sensor. Now with an almost 250% increase in density... is aliasing really going to even be a factor? Using his own pictures and video in Brighton Beach, how much of that effect can we assume 50MP would mitigate on its own without the filter?

If medium format 50MP cameras are without an AA, could this body (the R) not also stand up the same way (granted there's an obvious sensor and pixel size difference)

Toss out your thoughts please! This would be a lot more interesting than pop-up flashes.... geez... come on guys!! :


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## manyhats (Feb 4, 2015)

i'm going to make a shockingly bold call and say that the smart people who think a pop-up flash on a professional level camera is a good idea, probably aren't the target market for this camera...


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## Lee Jay (Feb 4, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > the entire question is not, "is a pop-up flash good enough to produce professional images as good as carefully lit studio images with a full lighting setup?". Nobody claims it is. Pop-up flash is a useful tool when no other lighting options are immediately available. Not more. But not less, either.
> ...



That's one of you patented stupid questions designed to have either no answer or the answer you want. It presupposes that the 5D series of cameras are used for nothing other than pro stock photography, product photography or the like. The premise of your question is obviously false. The 5D series of cameras are used for all sorts of different types of photography, including family and vacation photography.

For when I'm shooting professionally, which is 95% events, I'll bring the big lighting gear. But I also use the 5D cameras for family, vacation, and personal photography. For those, a pop up flash is so essential that not having one was such a loss that I went out and bought a crummy, inconvenient replacement. But it's better than the nothing that the camera came with, and also the nothing I would carry on vacation without it.


----------



## cfargo (Feb 4, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



I find that most pop up flashes won't work with most pro lenses do to the shadow created by the larger diameter pro lenses. The pop up flashes are normally not high enough to get the light onto the subject without have a shadow on the bottom half, from my lens being in the way. 

So I personally never use a popup flash on a DSLR.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 4, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> But I also use the 5D cameras for family, vacation, and personal photography. For those, a pop up flash is so essential that not having one was such a loss that I went out and bought a crummy, inconvenient replacement. But it's better than the nothing that the camera came with, and also the nothing I would carry on vacation without it.



Obviously, it's a matter of personal preference. 100% of my photography is, "...family vacation and personal." For those, a pop-up flash is so useless that I didn't use it even when my dSLR had one. If a pop up flash is the only way to get the shot, why bother pushing the shutter button at all? Failing to plan is planning to fail. If making good images is a priority, bring a real flash. If simple documentation is the goal, and the 'deer in the headlights' look is acceptable, a smartphone camera or P&S will do as well (or even better, since that would avoid the shadow cast by many lenses when a pop-up flash is used).


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## Lee Jay (Feb 4, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > But I also use the 5D cameras for family, vacation, and personal photography. For those, a pop up flash is so essential that not having one was such a loss that I went out and bought a crummy, inconvenient replacement. But it's better than the nothing that the camera came with, and also the nothing I would carry on vacation without it.
> ...



That's just so wrong, on so many levels.

Not carrying a 580EX means I _can _carry my 35/1.4L. Since the flash is only used for fill (basically, ever), and the 35L is used for all sorts of things, the 35L wins easily. So I have to carry either no flash or a flash I can carry along with the 35L, and that means a little tiny inconvenient flash I don't really like, or a pop up.

Lenses are generally more important to me than flashes, so I'm not giving up a lens to carry a fancy flash. For those times I know I'm going to need a fancy flash (or two, or three), I carry another bag with my lighting kit. But that's not a vacation thing since it's 5 times the size of my camera bag.


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## AA (Feb 4, 2015)

I'm so sorry for you "I am sooooo pro" guys for not using the pop-up flash on your camera when you needed it. What did you use instead? Your 600 EX-RT that was sitting around at home because it was too heavy to log around?

*The best flash is the flash you have with you. That makes the pop-up flash the best flash I can imagine.* For vacation shooting, it's perfect. It's light. It requires no extra batteries. It's awesome. 

It is down to Canon's incredible arrogance (while sales are falling at an alarmingly rapid rate to smart phones that do have a flash!!!) not to include one.

And yes, you can use it with a 24-70 type lens without blocking the light with the lens.

And no, your 600EX-RT will NOT give you much better results even if you log it around unless you have a transmitter, an umbrella / soft box and a light stand with you (/ can bounce it from a wall, which is rare.) That's at least 3-5 kg right there. Over triple the weight of the camera...

So let me ask these real pros here. When you take a photo with your smartphone, do you bring an external flash unit with you with modifiers or do you use the integrated flash??? How is that any different from a pop-up flash (besides the massive red eye it gives you) on a real camera?

I have Nikon shooter friends who take no flash with them on their vacation... I'm envious of them.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 4, 2015)

AA said:


> I'm so sorry for you "I am sooooo pro" guys for not using the pop-up flash on your camera when you needed it. What did you use instead? Your 600 EX-RT that was sitting around at home because it was too heavy to log around?
> 
> *The best flash is the flash you have with you. That makes the pop-up flash the best flash I can imagine.* For vacation shooting, it's perfect. It's light. It requires no extra batteries. It's awesome.
> 
> ...



Dude, that is one pathetic childish rant.

I am not, and have never said, a pro is superior to an amateur, all I have pointed out is that they have different needs. I am a pro photographer, I never take a picture with my phone and I take some god awful images with my DSLR, that isn't the point. The point is as a pro I have never, ever, needed a pop up flash, and I have made a simple request for anybody to post a commercially viable image that has been made because of a pop up flash. There is no judgement call here, just a rational request by those who declare it so to illustrate that it is so.

Besides, if Canon considered it a pro feature it would, by necessity, be on every pro camera they made, yet it has never been on one of them, ever, do you think that might be because a pop up flash is not a 'pro' feature?


----------



## SwnSng (Feb 4, 2015)

I agree with both sides of the argument here...I didn't pack my 600EX RT on the last trip to Maui and I regretted it. Even the families with a pop-up flash were able to get nice shots with the Sunset exposed properly and the subjects lit with their pop-up. 

I had to blow up the background to get the shot and wouldn't even dare try to bracket with 2 young boys who don't even stay still for a 1/200 shot let alone 3 of them 

This is the case where a pop-up would have been better than nothing. I do think that these moments are rare though and I know now I would bring the 600ex-rt next time even if the new cameras come with the pop-up. Now if it was also a transmitter that would be a no-brainer of an option.


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 4, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> AA said:
> 
> 
> > I'm so sorry for you "I am sooooo pro" guys for not using the pop-up flash on your camera when you needed it. What did you use instead? Your 600 EX-RT that was sitting around at home because it was too heavy to log around?
> ...



There's no such thing as a "pro" feature.

Canon does this for no good reason (from the customer's point of view). It does save them money, in both ICC and warranty, and I suspect they hope you'll buy one. I did - a Sunpak, not a Canon.


----------



## benperrin (Feb 4, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> If a pop up flash is the only way to get the shot, why bother pushing the shutter button at all?


This is my philosophy as well. There are some pretty heated posts here making responding in a rational manner difficult. I have to ask though; how many people here that are advocates for pop-up flash are even using a 5 or 1 series and are even interested in this upcoming camera?

Anyway, this topic has been a diversion from the real subject of interest. It will be interesting to see how this new camera performs in the real world and if Canon does indeed launch a 5d4 later in the year.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 4, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> There's no such thing as a "pro" feature.
> 
> Canon does this for no good reason (from the customer's point of view). It does save them money, in both ICC and warranty, and I suspect they hope you'll buy one. I did - a Sunpak, not a Canon.



Of course there is, it is something that would *have* to be on a camera who's target market was primarily professional photographers. 

Things like AF point linked spot metering, 100% viewfinder, the best current AF and metering, etc. However a feature being a required feature on a pro orientated camera does not mean it couldn't be seen on a different model, but, if a feature is not included on a professional photographer orientated model then it is not considered a 'pro' feature, that is, a feature required or needed by professional photographers to earn their living.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 4, 2015)

benperrin said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > If a pop up flash is the only way to get the shot, why bother pushing the shutter button at all?
> ...



Couldn't agree with you both more..................


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 5, 2015)

benperrin said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > If a pop up flash is the only way to get the shot, why bother pushing the shutter button at all?
> ...



I use a 5 series, and I bought a Sunpak RD2000 because my 5D doesn't have a pop up flash.

I would be interested in this camera if it weren't for the poor high ISO range and the presumed color filter choice that caused it. I shoot less than 15% of my shots at ISO 100. I shoot more above ISO 1600 than at ISO 100. I'll wait for the 5DIV.


----------



## benperrin (Feb 5, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> I use a 5 series, and I bought a Sunpak RD2000 because my 5D doesn't have a pop up flash.
> 
> I would be interested in this camera if it weren't for the poor high ISO range and the presumed color filter choice that caused it. I shoot less than 15% of my shots at ISO 100. I shoot more above ISO 1600 than at ISO 100. I'll wait for the 5DIV.


Fair enough. I'll admit, I'm at ISO 100 about 90-95% of the time so the 5ds is probably more suited to my needs than yours. I may also purchase a 5d4 down the track though specifically for event photography. Of course we have no idea what this camera is actually capable of yet.


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## RayValdez360 (Feb 5, 2015)

I love how there is like 2 pages talking about flashes. I want to see more info about this camera not flashes. Take that shit to the lighting forum. Is pop up pro or not, who cares.


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## kphoto99 (Feb 5, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> Besides, if Canon considered it a pro feature it would, by necessity, be on every pro camera they made, yet it has never been on one of them, ever, do you think that might be because a pop up flash is not a 'pro' feature?



Based on your logic a RT commander is not pro since it is not included in any pro cameras.

Canon does not have it on "pro" cameras because they want to sell a separate flash to the "pros".
Don't confuse pro features with Canons desire to extract more money.


----------



## kphoto99 (Feb 5, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> benperrin said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



So basically any newsworthy pictures taken by a photojournalist do not qualify for being taken if a pop up flash is involved. (No, I don't have any examples) Or are photojournalists not pros?


----------



## RLPhoto (Feb 5, 2015)

If a pop up flash was the work around to get in-body RT transmission, full steam ahead. I'd love one.

For awhile, on the 7D, I only used the pop-up as a transmitter and it was a temp job until I got RT flashes. I'd rather over expose and process than attempt to use a harsh direct pop-up flash in 99% of situations. The other 1 percent was when I didn't matter and/or to use the horrible burst focus assist. Eh, pop-ups are expendable for me but if somehow it had a little roller on top to turn the bulb for the tiniest bounce, it would be really useful.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 5, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



I prioritize bringing good light with me if I'll need it. Even a 600EX doesn't add much to a bag, IMO...I don't omit a lens I'll need to take a flash, I bring both. The weight/space doesn't bother me, but shots with crappy lighting do bother me. 


But ultimately:



Lee Jay said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously, it's a matter of personal preference.
> ...



I believe you're clearly in the wrong, on so many levels.


----------



## takesome1 (Feb 5, 2015)

The pop up flash argument for this body is ridiculous.

Besides 5Ds is going to have so much DR you will not need a flash. Just slide the shadow bar in LR and all is solved.


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## PureClassA (Feb 5, 2015)

Wow. Well so much for the OLPF debate... I tried. Everyone seems more interested in fighting over a pop up flash. Unreal. If anyone would care to raise the bar, go back a couple pages and read the post about the 5D3 with the AA removed


----------



## Arkarch (Feb 5, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Wow. Well so much for the OLPF debate... I tried. Everyone seems more interested in fighting over a pop up flash. Unreal. If anyone would care to raise the bar, go back a couple pages and read the post about the 5D3 with the AA removed



I did see your post. But right now the flood of pop-up flash debate on a 5DS thread is, as you noted, obscuring other conversation. I'll wait a bit.


----------



## ScottyP (Feb 5, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> So I found this to make things interesting. James Miller is a cinema/video guy in the UK who now works some with Philip Bloom. Apparently Miller tore down his 5D3 a couple years back and ditched the AA filter. Here's what he got:
> 
> http://www.eoshd.com/2012/03/james-miller-removes-optical-low-pass-filter-from-5d-mark-iii-for-resolution-increase/
> 
> ...



I agree this is more interesting than pop up flash, .......so........... I BUMP THEE.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 5, 2015)

kphoto99 said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > benperrin said:
> ...



That, the purple bit, is my point :


----------



## ecqns (Feb 5, 2015)

> I agree this is more interesting than pop up flash, .......so........... I BUMP THEE.



Thanks for cutting through that all engrossing pop up flash debate....
As a pro architectural photographer I've been waiting for this camera for a long long time. They could make the high iso 800 for all I care if 100 has clean shadows. I assumed I would get the AA filter version but this post above makes me wonder. Would I be better served by the R version if the 50mpx sensor doesn't add much moire? There are a lot of situations with repeating patterns in building materials.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 5, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> And you've never once hit upon a scenario where a backlit snap of some friends would not have turned out better with a touch of fill flash?? Never came upon, totally unexpectedly some animal at night on the way back?



I've certainly run across backlit situations needing fill flash...and I had a Speedlite with me. An animal at night...what, a house cat? Or maybe you think a popup flash would be useful with my 600/4? Or maybe a nice, close deer...really driving home my point about the 'deer in the headlights' look that sends the file straight to the trash can...except I wouldn't have even bothered taking the shot with direct onboard flash in darkness, popup or Speedlite. 




LetTheRightLensIn said:


> This is not the final pose, angle, aperture or anything, which I can't post, but the test shot for *emergency* pop-up fill. Without the fill all the faces were shadowed and dark and not at all balanced to the background.



As I said, failing to plan is planning to fail. Nice that the popup flash may have saved you, but if you needed saving it was due to a lack of proper preparation.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 5, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Wow. Well so much for the OLPF debate... I tried. Everyone seems more interested in fighting over a pop up flash. Unreal. If anyone would care to raise the bar, go back a couple pages and read the post about the 5D3 with the AA removed



Well, that was all done to death when it was fresh news and the D800 vs. D800E was the hot topic. Yes, you could certainly get moiré with an AA-less 50 MP sensor. You'd get it with higher frequency detail (smaller repeating patterns) than with a 22 MP sensor.


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## benperrin (Feb 5, 2015)

ecqns said:


> Thanks for cutting through that all engrossing pop up flash debate....
> As a pro architectural photographer I've been waiting for this camera for a long long time. They could make the high iso 800 for all I care if 100 has clean shadows. I assumed I would get the AA filter version but this post above makes me wonder. Would I be better served by the R version if the 50mpx sensor doesn't add much moire? There are a lot of situations with repeating patterns in building materials.


This is something I'm certainly interested in talking about. Also once some post sharpening is applied do people think that the s version can match the r? Or is the r still going to maintain an advantage? Can't wait to see some real world examples.


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## PureClassA (Feb 5, 2015)

Ok... but how much mitigation would 50MP deliver to aliasing? Obviously as Neuro pointed out it would reduce the visual effects. But how close would the aliasing on a 50MP no-OLPF sensor be to the 22MP 5D3 sensor WITH OLPF? If the size/appearance of aliasing is reduced by, say, 250%, equivalent to the increase in pixel density... the 5DR may have aliasing and moire so small than it becomes insignificant. Maybe not in EVERY scenario, but perhaps in far more than now?


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## PureClassA (Feb 5, 2015)

ecqns said:


> > I agree this is more interesting than pop up flash, .......so........... I BUMP THEE.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's what I'm wondering. I agree the lack of AA on the 5D3 James Miller modified was HARSH, but it also removed a notable amount of mush. Even the video looked stunningly different! Seemed like the "wax" video output was suddenly gone, granted with a dose of aliasing.

So will 50MP aliasing be sooooo small that short of really, really pixel peeping to ridiculous levels, it will be overwhelmingly unnoticeable? Aliasing is from, more or less, a lack of resolving power. Does 50MP largely cure this ill? Does it cure it so largely than any minor remaining effects CAN truly be effectively dealt with in post? One wonders....


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 5, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Ok... but how much mitigation would 50MP deliver to aliasing? Obviously as Neuro pointed out it would reduce the visual effects. But how close would the aliasing on a 50MP no-OLPF sensor be to the 22MP 5D3 sensor WITH OLPF? If the size/appearance of aliasing is reduced by, say, 250%, equivalent to the increase in pixel density... the 5DR may have aliasing and moire so small than it becomes insignificant. Maybe not in EVERY scenario, but perhaps in far more than now?
> ...



Ok, I hear ya. But MF cameras like the 645z, Phase One, etc... no AA. Granted a bigger sensor. But 50MP. This is what has me wondering.


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## PureClassA (Feb 5, 2015)

Assuming it is indeed a Canon sensor, yes. 7D2 would be similar. I'm waiting for sample shots but where I was formerly in the 5DS camp, I'm now admittedly back in the middle again. If nothing else, I'm keeping my 6D regardless. Another reason pushing me in the R direction to have something different


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## Famateur (Feb 5, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Wow. Well so much for the OLPF debate... I tried. Everyone seems more interested in fighting over a pop up flash. Unreal. If anyone would care to raise the bar, go back a couple pages and read the post about the 5D3 with the AA removed



It was a worthy effort -- thanks for trying! 

Let me try something...


Sooooooo... A true professional never needs any more than 11 stops of dynamic range! 







Oh wait. Out of the frying pan and...


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 5, 2015)

Famateur said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Wow. Well so much for the OLPF debate... I tried. Everyone seems more interested in fighting over a pop up flash. Unreal. If anyone would care to raise the bar, go back a couple pages and read the post about the 5D3 with the AA removed
> ...



Aww sh!t no... That isn't even funny on this forum... People will die....


----------



## Famateur (Feb 5, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > It was a worthy effort -- thanks for trying!
> ...



LOL! That might be closer to the truth than I want to admit. 

Guess I'll put my popcorn popper away now...


----------



## CaptureWhatYouSee (Feb 5, 2015)

14.6 DR


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## Marsu42 (Feb 5, 2015)

Famateur said:


> Sooooooo... A true professional never needs any more than 11 stops of dynamic range!



Wrong. Someone truly capable of good photography and being able to handle his/her gear will be fine with 8 stops of dynamic range, everything above is just a crutch to smooth over the inability to expose properly


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## Famateur (Feb 5, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > Sooooooo... A true professional never needs any more than 11 stops of dynamic range!
> ...



I love it. Thanks, Marsu!


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Feb 5, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



Nikon D7100 is high in pixels and it gets wicked moire in some cases due to no AA

Look here. 5Dsr is going to be no exception. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8591919388/sizes/o/

Gotta admit though, it's one hell of a sharp image! Holy cow! I think it was taken with the Sigma 50 art.


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## Arkarch (Feb 5, 2015)

Interesting photo of the silver coat - good example of where lack of AA would not work.

I do think 50MP will reduce that - curious if there are studies of no AA on a subject across a range of resolutions. I am leaning toward "R" as I do a landscape. But I also will use it for motorsports (yeah I know its 5 fps but I can deep crop) and thats where some patterns caused by tight graphics, fence lines, grandstands, could be problematic. Should I get it, it will be fun to shoot Vegas (my town) - places like Aria with a mesh awning should be great tests.

Anyway, interested in seeing the sample shots. Should take forever to download full sizes!!


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Feb 5, 2015)

Arkarch said:


> Interesting photo of the silver coat - good example of where lack of AA would not work.
> 
> I do think 50MP will reduce that - curious if there are studies of no AA on a subject across a range of resolutions. I am leaning toward "R" as I do a landscape. But I also will use it for motorsports (yeah I know its 5 fps but I can deep crop) and thats where some patterns caused by tight graphics, fence lines, grandstands, could be problematic. Should I get it, it will be fun to shoot Vegas (my town) - places like Aria with a mesh awning should be great tests.
> 
> Anyway, interested in seeing the sample shots. Should take forever to download full sizes!!


Nope 50MP won't do anything. The image shown was from a Nikon D7100 which is crop. Similar pixel size as a 54MP FF. 50MP FF will moire without AA filter +sharp lens.


----------



## OmarSV11 (Feb 5, 2015)

USB 3.0 mentioned anywhere?


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## rambarra (Feb 5, 2015)

leaked press realease from canonwatch:

http://www.canonwatch.com/cw5-canon-eos-5ds-eos-5ds-r-ef-11-24mm-f4l-press-release-leaked/

seems like cameras will be getting a canon sensor?


----------



## benperrin (Feb 5, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> Canon press release saying they are using a Sony sensor? Snowball chance in hell.
> 
> Notice how they mention increased dynamic range? Have they used that language lately?
> 
> It doesn't matter who made the sensor as long as it in improved tech I guess.


Well they only say wide dynamic range, not increased so we'll have to cross our fingers really tight until we find out if there is any improvement. I like the idea of a quieter shutter. Definitely looking like a camera I am going to like.


----------



## Rahul (Feb 5, 2015)

If there is no improvement in DR, the bitchfest here will be impossible to handle ;D


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## ijohnsson (Feb 5, 2015)

I hope that they have made some compromises that sacrifice high ISO for excellent dynamic range, but I am no sensor designer so I don't know if that is the case. I don't ever use any ISO above 6,400 so this is perfectly ok (not sure what one would use higher grainy settings for; 6,400 is great for Milky Way shots but certainly not clean). 5 fps is also perfectly fine for studio and landscape, which is of course what these cameras are for.


----------



## zim (Feb 5, 2015)

rambarra said:


> leaked press realease from canonwatch:
> 
> http://www.canonwatch.com/cw5-canon-eos-5ds-eos-5ds-r-ef-11-24mm-f4l-press-release-leaked/
> 
> seems like cameras will be getting a canon sensor?



Three things I note

_EOS 5DS R also includes:
•Low-pass cancellation filter_

It's called a 5DS R and what is a Low-pass 'cancellation filter' I thought the AA was being taken out not cancelled.
Could it be possible therefore to switch AA off and on?

Up to 5fps - so no faster in crop modes


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## PureClassA (Feb 5, 2015)

The moire in that image you linked you is obvious when zoomed in, but a more normal size it's impossible to see almost. That lends some hope for this R version, but again, two different sensors.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 5, 2015)

zim said:


> rambarra said:
> 
> 
> > leaked press realease from canonwatch:
> ...



You stack another filter atop the AA 180 degrees outta phase with the first and cancel out the effect. It was probably a lot cheaper to do it this way rather than creating TWO fab processes where by half the sensors get made WITH and the other half WITHOUT. PLUS, the AA filter is also stacked with the IR filter, so to take out the AA is to take out the IR. Finally, you still have to have something there to maintain the same focal distance from lens to sensor.


----------



## zim (Feb 5, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> zim said:
> 
> 
> > rambarra said:
> ...



Ah thank you for the explanation!

rotating AA filter anyone............... joking honest ;D


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Feb 5, 2015)

If Canon is using Sony sensors, how is DXO going to try their best to give them low scores? 

It's pretty obvious they have a huge axe to grind with Canon and will lie anything up they can possibly invent to make them look bad. Every review on the planet shows the new STM 55-250 is vastly better than the previous version in all aspects. 

"Canon-EF-S-55-250mm-f-4-5.6-IS-STM-lens-review-Updated-EF-S-telephoto-zoom-no-improvement-on-predecessor"

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Canon-EF-S-55-250mm-f-4-5.6-IS-STM-lens-review-Updated-EF-S-telephoto-zoom-no-improvement-on-predecessor

Here's what they consider "no improvement" LoL

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=777&Camera=736&Sample=0&FLI=4&API=1&LensComp=856&CameraComp=736&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=4&APIComp=1


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 5, 2015)

Drawing on all the many Nikon D800 vs D800E discussions ... my personal takeaway is: if I was shopping for a 50 MP Canon EOS, I'd definitely take the 5Ds for any studio, fashion, people shots (as long as they have any clothes on). And I'd definitely take the 5Ds R for nudes, landscape and everything else.


----------



## sparda79 (Feb 5, 2015)

rambarra said:


> leaked press realease from canonwatch:
> 
> http://www.canonwatch.com/cw5-canon-eos-5ds-eos-5ds-r-ef-11-24mm-f4l-press-release-leaked/
> 
> seems like cameras will be getting a canon sensor?



;D LOL... That site has more trolls than Mordor...


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Feb 5, 2015)

sparda79 said:


> rambarra said:
> 
> 
> > leaked press realease from canonwatch:
> ...



No kidding! It's like the youtube comments of the camera world. I would be ashamed if I ran that website.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 5, 2015)

I like CanonWatch personally, but the people on there are batsh!t crazy. Makes our own trolls look like Smurfs.


----------



## pierlux (Feb 5, 2015)

sparda79 said:


> rambarra said:
> 
> 
> > leaked press realease from canonwatch:
> ...



Indeed! But I had a good laugh reading those comments, there's also another fake neuroanatomist.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 5, 2015)

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/new-competition-pentax-goes-full-frame-with-sony-sensor-and-olympus-makes-qx-alike-cameras/


Everyone fixin' to get in on the action this year...


----------



## Stu_bert (Feb 5, 2015)

a question please to the more knowledgeable folk here.

When the D800 was launched, there was a lot of talk about using the proper techniques to ensure you got sharp images based on the resolution. If the pixel density of the 5Ds will be similar to the 7d MK II, why is this never said about APS-C cameras, and does it therefore only apply to the high resolution models? If it is only the high resolution sensors, could please someone explain, in simple terms, why this is.

Thanks in advance

Roll on 6hrs 15 mins


----------



## AshtonNekolah (Feb 5, 2015)

pedro said:


> Hi, just saw this at NL
> 
> "*Two new 5D variants are suggested, both with a 50.6MP full frame CMOS sensor
> An EOS 5DS R version will be without low-pass filter
> ...



I would go as far to say it looks more like 100MP detail this machine can pump out. But dont take my word for it.


----------



## Lawliet (Feb 5, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> If it is only the high resolution sensors, could please someone explain, in simple terms, why this is.



It's about pixels per image height. If you take a picture of, lets say, an animal in the zoo you could either use ff/300/4mm or APS-C/200/2.8mm, you'll get basically the same result. The same amount of shake will cause the same details to vanish.
But if you use a higher res ff sensor you should be able to resolve smaller details - those have already been destroyed when you're applying the same standards as before.


----------



## Stu_bert (Feb 6, 2015)

Lawliet said:


> Stu_bert said:
> 
> 
> > If it is only the high resolution sensors, could please someone explain, in simple terms, why this is.
> ...



Thanks for replying, and sorry, but I'm not quite clear. I get the point about different lenses / different focal lengths. But if my high res sensor has the same pixel density as it's APS brethren, does it apply equally to both (as in the caution required) ?

Off to bed, so won't be able to read any response for a few hours


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 6, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> Lawliet said:
> 
> 
> > Stu_bert said:
> ...



It applies to both equally if you look at the pixel level, or 1.6 times more on the crop camera if you keep final size constant.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 6, 2015)

Well, we were discussing ML type Dual ISO .... could this be our boy?

http://www.slrlounge.com/patent-basis-canons-rumored-new-sensors-2015/


----------



## Stu_bert (Feb 6, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> Stu_bert said:
> 
> 
> > Lawliet said:
> ...



Thank you. So why don't we hear much (or do we and I'm just not very observant) about the same issues with APS-C sensors?


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 6, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> Thank you. So why don't we hear much (or do we and I'm just not very observant) about the same issues with APS-C sensors?



Because there is no such issue. People just hear high pixel count numbers and freak out. They freak out about noise too, and there's no real problem there either.


----------



## Lawliet (Feb 6, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> Thank you. So why don't we hear much (or do we and I'm just not very observant) about the same issues with APS-C sensors?


Because you get a much tighter framing, here everybody expects to need higher shutter speeds or a tripod.
People keep quoting the 1/f rule of thumb, 1/400s for 400mm and so on. With crop cameras people understood that the focal length has to be the apparent FL to keep the validity so you needed 1/640 under otherwise similar circumstances. Now with the higher res sensor you get the original framing of the lens back, but still require the faster shutter speed from the crop camera - it's the same pixel pitch after all, just with more picture along the borders. That raise from 1/400 to 1/640 would be the one way to get sharp pictures, the other would involve better technique, to get similar improvements at the old shutter speed.
(nota bene: the rule of thumb is just that; between higher resolution and IS it's even less set in stone then in analouge times)


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 6, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> So why don't we hear much (or do we and I'm just not very observant) about the same issues with APS-C sensors?



Where were you when the 7D came out, and many people upgrading from the 10 MP 40D complained that their old camera was sharper...until they learned to use a higher shutter speed?


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## takesome1 (Feb 6, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> a question please to the more knowledgeable folk here.
> 
> When the D800 was launched, there was a lot of talk about using the proper techniques to ensure you got sharp images based on the resolution. If the pixel density of the 5Ds will be similar to the 7d MK II, why is this never said about APS-C cameras, and does it therefore only apply to the high resolution models? If it is only the high resolution sensors, could please someone explain, in simple terms, why this is.
> 
> ...



You do have to use proper technique to maximize the pixel density of a body like the 7D II. 
I have had the discussion many times in the forums. 
It is often overlooked or ignored and occasionally surfaces during a crop factor benefit debate, usually thrown out to discount the reach advantage of a crop body.


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## takesome1 (Feb 6, 2015)

Lawliet said:


> Stu_bert said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you. So why don't we hear much (or do we and I'm just not very observant) about the same issues with APS-C sensors?
> ...



And all this time I thought the reason you have to take more care to get the benefit of a higher resolution sensor would be that the smaller the subject detail you are trying to resolve the steadier your camera would have to be.


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## Famateur (Feb 6, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Well, we were discussing ML type Dual ISO .... could this be our boy?
> 
> http://www.slrlounge.com/patent-basis-canons-rumored-new-sensors-2015/



Good find! I had forgotten about that article and patent. We're just hours away from the official release, and I'm excited to see what Canon will show us.

I'm hoping that having so many announcements on one day isn't to try to have quantity make up for the quality...


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## PureClassA (Feb 6, 2015)

GAME ON!!! Pre-Orders live on BHPhoto and Adorama!!!!!! Expected availability in June


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## takesome1 (Feb 6, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> GAME ON!!! Pre-Orders live on BHPhoto and Adorama!!!!!! Expected availability in June



Um..No....
Pre-orders not up yet 

Bodies are there though


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## rocksubculture (Feb 6, 2015)

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-5Ds.aspx


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## Arkarch (Feb 6, 2015)

rocksubculture said:


> http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-5Ds.aspx



"The headline feature for this camera is unquestionably the 50.6 MP full frame CMOS sensor, designed and produced completely by Canon (according to Chuck Westfall). Here is a chart comparing some current and recent EOS camera models."


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## CaptureWhatYouSee (Feb 6, 2015)

"The 5Ds has the same dynamic range as 5D III. While some will complain that the closest Nikon-equivalent body has more dynamic range (and more is better), I haven't had an issue with the 5D II's DR. When I can't retain both shadows and highlights in an image, that scene generally needs very significantly more DR and exposure bracketing with HDR handles those instances nicely."


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## rocksubculture (Feb 6, 2015)

From TDP:



> While the 5D III supports the fast UDMA Mode 7 CompactFlash specification, it does not support the fast UHS-I SD/SDHC/SDXC standard. The good news is that the 5Ds does. No longer do CF cards need to be chosen just for their speed.



Is that something that could be upgraded on the 5D III via firmware? Or is it a hardware thing?

Jason


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 6, 2015)

rocksubculture said:


> http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-5Ds.aspx



That's a lot of words for a camera he's bever used


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## Arkarch (Feb 6, 2015)

I dont see anything about color-optimized CFA.


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## PureClassA (Feb 6, 2015)

takesome1 said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > GAME ON!!! Pre-Orders live on BHPhoto and Adorama!!!!!! Expected availability in June
> ...



Not quite... but what's most important is I'm now 3 for 3 on price predictions and that's even better for all of us when so many folks were betting on $4-5k and beyond....


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## takesome1 (Feb 6, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > PureClassA said:
> ...



Such a value for them, they should be the first in line to buy.


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## Stu_bert (Feb 6, 2015)

Lawliet said:


> Stu_bert said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you. So why don't we hear much (or do we and I'm just not very observant) about the same issues with APS-C sensors?
> ...



thank you


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## Stu_bert (Feb 6, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Stu_bert said:
> 
> 
> > So why don't we hear much (or do we and I'm just not very observant) about the same issues with APS-C sensors?
> ...



Using one - I used to have one before I bought a 2nd hand mk IV, never had the problem...


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## Stu_bert (Feb 6, 2015)

CaptureWhatYouSee said:


> "The 5Ds has the same dynamic range as 5D III. While some will complain that the closest Nikon-equivalent body has more dynamic range (and more is better), I haven't had an issue with the 5D II's DR. When I can't retain both shadows and highlights in an image, that scene generally needs very significantly more DR and exposure bracketing with HDR handles those instances nicely."



same noise as the 7D MK II according to Chuck. And indeed nothing about the CFA.


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## Eldar (Feb 6, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> CaptureWhatYouSee said:
> 
> 
> > "The 5Ds has the same dynamic range as 5D III. While some will complain that the closest Nikon-equivalent body has more dynamic range (and more is better), I haven't had an issue with the 5D II's DR. When I can't retain both shadows and highlights in an image, that scene generally needs very significantly more DR and exposure bracketing with HDR handles those instances nicely."
> ...


What a phenomenal turn-off


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## Marsu42 (Feb 6, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> CaptureWhatYouSee said:
> 
> 
> > "The 5Ds has the same dynamic range as 5D III.
> ...



Well, there is little difference: 5d3 = 11ev and 7d2 11.2ev, though the 5d3 manages to sustain dr a bit longer at higher iso: http://www.sensorgen.info/

The best Canon camera at low iso remains the 6d (11.5ev), but that only makes a noticeable difference when it's multiplied by Magic Lanter's dual_iso to nearly 15ev.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 6, 2015)

[quote author=Bryan Carnathan TDP]
The 5Ds has the same dynamic range as 5D III.
[/quote]

Woe to the republic a few people on CR forums.


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## traveller (Feb 6, 2015)

Chuck Westfall has insisted that the 5DS sensor is designed and manufactured in-house, but what is interesting is the fact that it doesn’t feature Dual-pixel AF (and neither do the 750D, 760D nor EOS-M3). 

I understood that DPAF is part of the core design of the sensor, you can’t just remove it from or add it to the front of existing sensors. Thus, assuming that these new sensors don’t simply have DPAF disabled (why would you do that -especially if you are going to add HCAF, like on the 750/760D?), they are of a fundamentally different design to the 7D MkII.


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## kphoto99 (Feb 6, 2015)

traveller said:


> Chuck Westfall has insisted that the 5DS sensor is designed and manufactured in-house, but what is interesting is the fact that it doesn’t feature Dual-pixel AF (and neither do the 750D, 760D nor EOS-M3).
> 
> I understood that DPAF is part of the core design of the sensor, you can’t just remove it from or add it to the front of existing sensors. Thus, assuming that these new sensors don’t simply have DPAF disabled (why would you do that -especially if you are going to add HCAF, like on the 750/760D?), they are of a fundamentally different design to the 7D MkII.



Maybe Canon has decided that DPAF is a dead end.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 6, 2015)

kphoto99 said:


> traveller said:
> 
> 
> > Chuck Westfall has insisted that the 5DS sensor is designed and manufactured in-house, but what is interesting is the fact that it doesn’t feature Dual-pixel AF (and neither do the 750D, 760D nor EOS-M3).
> ...



I never understood the hoopla over DPAF, it seems the best thing it did was gave limited AF in Live View, so what?


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## Stu_bert (Feb 6, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> kphoto99 said:
> 
> 
> > traveller said:
> ...



I would have thought simplifying production would be better than not having the feature even if of limited benefit for the target users of the 5Ds. I guess DPAF adds to costs, and removing it provides better margin.


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## traveller (Feb 6, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> kphoto99 said:
> 
> 
> > traveller said:
> ...



It only really makes sense on video and mirrorless cameras -but as that's meant to be the future...?  

My point was that the sensor design of the 7D MkII and the 5DS must be different if one has DPAF and one doesn't as DPAF is part of the architecture of the sensor.


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## TexPhoto (Feb 6, 2015)

Crop mode without faster FPS, or some kind of advantage seems pointless. Granted you will fill the memory cards slower, but you can always crop at home to 1.3, 1.6 or whatever else you want.


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## ecqns (Feb 6, 2015)

All I wanted was Sony/Nikon like dynamic range, great color, clean low ISO's.
Looks like we aren't getting that and a release 4+ months away! - pretty typical Canon.
Pretty disappointed, I thought they were finally coming around, but not very surprised after all.

I'm getting a Sony a7r for the time being for my TS-Es and see what happens. 
I will most likely be getting that 11-24 though if its as good as it looks.


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## Mogwai2 (Feb 6, 2015)

kphoto99 said:


> traveller said:
> 
> 
> > Chuck Westfall has insisted that the 5DS sensor is designed and manufactured in-house, but what is interesting is the fact that it doesn’t feature Dual-pixel AF (and neither do the 750D, 760D nor EOS-M3).
> ...



More likely the split into 100 Million photosites would result in technical problems.
And it´s not a camera aimed at Video anyway.


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## Neutral (Feb 6, 2015)

ecqns said:


> All I wanted was Sony/Nikon like dynamic range, great color, clean low ISO's.
> Looks like we aren't getting that and a release 4+ months away! - pretty typical Canon.
> Pretty disappointed, I thought they were finally coming around, but not very surprised after all.
> 
> ...



I did that as soon as a7r became available and I was not disappointed.
I am using a7r mostly with Canon TS-E 17, Canon EF 24-70 F.2.8 L II USM and Sony Zeiss 55 F1.8.
What is interesting that using Canon manual TS-E 17 on a7r is much more easier and more convenient than on Canon camera as a7R has EVF and focus peaking feature. Viewing 10x enlarged focus area in EVF with focus peaking makes it extremely easy for manual focusing.

I had a hope that 5Ds would have sensor with performance similar to Sony sensors (or Aptina sensors with their new sensor technologies) but this did not come true. 
5Ds has very nice set of new exciting features (which I would be very interested to use) and if that would be combined with sensor which is on par with existing Sony sensor in a7R that would be really game changing combination.
But only increase to 50mpx based on old sensor tech is not attractive at all to me. Sony a7R with Canon lenses works perfectly well and provides extremely well looking images. Will see soon what Sony will answer with new Hi-Res camera ( ???a7rII or a9 ???) which is rumored to have new tech 46mpx sensor


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## Marsu42 (Feb 6, 2015)

kphoto99 said:


> traveller said:
> 
> 
> > Chuck Westfall has insisted that the 5DS sensor is designed and manufactured in-house, but what is interesting is the fact that it doesn’t feature Dual-pixel AF (and neither do the 750D, 760D nor EOS-M3).
> ...



My guess that it's about sensor yield.

Rumor has it that Canon didn't "upscale" their crop sensors before because the flaws in the manufacturing process of the sensor die are frequent and given the large ff size, this would make it very expensive. Probably the have optimized it so can go ahead...

... but: enabling dpaf might lower the yield even more, so they probably just disabled it as it's not that important for the 5ds. Maybe like cpu manufacturers disabling cores or parts of the cache when a die has a flaw so they don't need to dump the whole thing.


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## spandau (Feb 6, 2015)

I heard Mike say that the sensor in the 5ds and 5dsr was the same sensor they use in the 1Dx. Is that possible?


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## Mogwai2 (Feb 6, 2015)

spandau said:


> I heard Mike say that the sensor in the 5ds and 5dsr was the same sensor they use in the 1Dx. Is that possible?



no... because that sensor is 18 MP.


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## msm (Feb 6, 2015)

A camera that is specialized for landscape that is 2-3stops behind the competition in DR. And all this blahblah about damped mirror but still it has a mechanical first curtain. Canon just saved me alot of money .


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## Marsu42 (Feb 6, 2015)

msm said:


> Canon just saved me alot of money .



Canon keeps being Canon, evolving their legacy dslr line step by step, avoiding big decisions or risks if the can help it (that's why they do a 5ds and 5ds-r, even though Nikon decided to only do one d810 w/o low pass filter).

Canon are very good at the numbers game and keep shuffling around their lineup, try to limit r&d costs and re-assemble new gear from old designs. If you're not ok with switch to Sonikon or - as you indicate - simply skip a couple of generations.

I don't think this will ever change unless they get in serious trouble with their current policy, and as the 5ds will find a lot of customers the end isn't nigh.


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## KitsVancouver (Feb 6, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> msm said:
> 
> 
> > Canon just saved me alot of money .
> ...



If I understand your post correctly, I fully agree. I had the 5D1 and hoped for better AF and more resolution. When the 5D2, came out, I got more resolution but the same crappy AF system. They could have easily put in better AF as they were doing it in lower end models, but they INTENTIONALLY held back the features. Then the 5D3 comes out and AF improves, but not resolution. Now with the 5DS, they improve resolution, but keep everything else (the stuff that matters to me) the same. It's probably good product marketing for Canon, but they sure don't lead the market with innovation. That said, I would probably do the same if I was in their shoes, but it still pisses me off. 

For my preferences, it seems like they are releasing improvements a tiny bit a time and holding back improvements or even regressing if they can get away with it. They make cameras JUST good enough. I really hope this is not just a larger 7D2 sensor.


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## Famateur (Feb 6, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> msm said:
> 
> 
> > Canon just saved me alot of money .
> ...



+1 Canon is running a business, and for now, well enough to lead in market share.

Off Topic: The "shuffling around their lineup" comment reminds me of Taco Bell. [For those outside the US, it's a fast-food chain that makes Mexican food -- and I use that description very loosely.] They really only have a handful of ingredients (tortillas, ground beef, chicken, rice, beans, onions, lettuce, orangey-yellowish stuff they call cheese, et cetera), yet they seem to come out with a new way to combine these ingredients into some "new" product all the time, with an equally creatively concocted name. Somehow they stay in business. Occasionally, they even get my business...don't ask my why.


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## V8Beast (Feb 6, 2015)

So Canon's business strategy is like Taco Bell? That's the best analogy I've heard yet ;D


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## msm (Feb 6, 2015)

Mogwai2 said:


> msm said:
> 
> 
> > A camera that is specialized for landscape that is 2-3stops behind the competition in DR. And all this blahblah about damped mirror but still it has a mechanical first curtain. Canon just saved me alot of money .
> ...



Never claimed to be an expert nor promised to go anywhere. But maybe you are so maybe you can explain why there is no problem with first curtain in live view?


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## Famateur (Feb 6, 2015)

V8Beast said:


> So Canon's business strategy is like Taco Bell? That's the best analogy I've heard yet ;D



LOL...not really, in a serious way, but Marsu's description reminded me of it. Glad you like it, even if it's just meant for a laugh.


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## RLPhoto (Feb 6, 2015)

Famateur said:


> V8Beast said:
> 
> 
> > So Canon's business strategy is like Taco Bell? That's the best analogy I've heard yet ;D
> ...


But taco bell has quite a system to support those tacos. Like those cinnamon twists and Burritos. : : :


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## Maiaibing (Feb 6, 2015)

V8Beast said:


> So Canon's business strategy is like Taco Bell? That's the best analogy I've heard yet ;D



Except Taco Bell's share price over the last 5 years is steadily trending up while Canon's is steadily trending down... maybe Canon needs to accept that the same old ingredients won't cut it in the Camera business. :


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## RobertG. (Feb 6, 2015)

ecqns said:


> All I wanted was Sony/Nikon like dynamic range, great color, clean low ISO's.
> Looks like we aren't getting that and a release 4+ months away! - pretty typical Canon.
> Pretty disappointed, I thought they were finally coming around, but not very surprised after all.
> 
> ...



+1!


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## tcmatthews (Feb 6, 2015)

RobertG. said:


> ecqns said:
> 
> 
> > All I wanted was Sony/Nikon like dynamic range, great color, clean low ISO's.
> ...


+1
Same old Canon Colors (a good thing), same old Canon DR (Not a good thing) but now there is more of it. Really these cameras should have been released a couple of months after the 5D III if they are not going to break ground in other areas besides resolution. Its all rather boring. Maybe ML can add dual ISO to them and salvage the situation. 

I am going to continue using my Canon 6D for wildlife. I do not regret upgrading my Nex6 to a A7 II at all now. After buying some more lenses I will likely pick up an A7 r II and possibly a 7D II for the Tamron 150-600.


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## Famateur (Feb 7, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> V8Beast said:
> 
> 
> > So Canon's business strategy is like Taco Bell? That's the best analogy I've heard yet ;D
> ...



True. I wonder how much of that is from KFC and Pizza Hut (the other chains owned by Yum Brands). 

Maybe Canon should start selling fried chicken and pizza. ;D

Then again, the 5DS R might be considered "extra crispy" with that AA cancellation filter.


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## drjlo (Feb 7, 2015)

ecqns said:


> All I wanted was Sony/Nikon like dynamic range, great color, clean low ISO's.
> I'm getting a Sony a7r for the time being



I just picked up A7r with Zeiss 55mm even before the 5Ds announcement, thinking I don't need 50 MP, even if it was Sony sensor with better DR. Finding out its a Canon 50 MP sensor with same DR as 5D III just makes me glad I picked up the A7r. 

I will still use my 5D III for most things, but A7r is a nice portable/backup solution. I do wish the A7r had either a touch screen to utilize touch-focus or a 5D III type joystick for moving AF points. Pushing C1 button to activate AF point to move, then using the front dial to move AF point up/down and a separate back dial to move AF point left/right a slow, painful, annoying process for A7r.. :'(


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