# Canon engineers talk all things RF, DS and DO



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 2, 2019)

> DPReview had a chance to interview some senior engineers and planners at Canon to discuss all things lenses and the future.
> *Canon employees interviewed:*
> 
> *Manabu Kato* – Head of EF + RF mount R&D
> ...



Continue reading...


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## Maximilian (Apr 2, 2019)

All this sounds very interesting and promissing.

The DS tech interests me most, esp. how its IQ will be compared to the standard lens.


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## Del Paso (Apr 2, 2019)

The important sentence being: "we understand that expectations are really high".
Sounds promising!


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## amorse (Apr 2, 2019)

"We understand that expectations are really high."

It seems like Canon engineers say this every time someone asks about a pro mirrorless body. That always catches my attention. Maybe I haven't been watching closely enough, but I don't remember them ever taking a step back like that on other releases - I don't remember them saying anything like that leading into a 1D series or 5D series release. It seems to me that if they weren't working on the pro body they'd just say that they can't disclose their future plans and leave it at that. 

Acknowledging high expectations and then not trying to meet it seems like admitting defeat, so as the market leader I have a hard time seeing Canon do that. It seems like they're making the acknowledgement to subtly say "we're working on it, but it's going to take some time." In the end that statement often seems to raise expectations even more: I'm pretty excited to see what they come up with.


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## Tom W (Apr 2, 2019)

I'd be willing to bet that the new 85 f/1.2 RF mount lenses will incorporate the sharpness of the 50/1.2 RF and the bokeh of the old standard 85/1.2L I and II. It could be an absolutely stellar lens.

I like that they mentioned that they will be working on some compact lenses for the RF mount. They're obviously going after the pro/semi-pro with most of this first batch of lenses, but they know that one of the strengths of the RF mount is its compact size.

The mock-up 24-240 mounted on the RP looks pretty big, but I bet it's a pretty light lens, lighter than the 24-105 RF.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Apr 2, 2019)

What was said about the Pro-Body. - Please don't forget the pro-level camera that you're expecting is on the way.


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## Berowne (Apr 2, 2019)

Nothing new.


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## navastronia (Apr 2, 2019)

Berowne said:


> Nothing new.



Still feels nice to have them check in with us, though.


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## SUNDOG04 (Apr 2, 2019)

No roadmap? Nikon has one for their S-Line lenses which are much more appealing to me (since I would not want a real-high-end Canon lenses) as their Z6 with IBS. Just a comment, not a troll. I am pleased with the Canon equipment I own know.


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## Chaitanya (Apr 2, 2019)

SUNDOG04 said:


> No roadmap? Nikon has one for their S-Line lenses which are much more appealing to me (since I would not want a real-high-end Canon lenses) as their Z6 with IBS. Just a comment, not a troll. I am pleased with the Canon equipment I own know.


Why would you need a roadmap canon has announced they will be bringing 6 new lenses for RF mount by the end of this year. Unfortunately other than RF 35mm and RF 24-240mm all other lenses are highend L lenses only for this system.
https://petapixel.com/2019/02/13/canon-announces-the-development-of-6-new-rf-lenses/


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## unfocused (Apr 2, 2019)

To me, roadmaps are like vaporware. They raise expectations and their main purpose is to lock consumers into a brand in exchange for promises that seldom materialize.


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## flip314 (Apr 2, 2019)

I'm really hoping the 24-240mm will be like a full-frame version of the 18-135mm APS-C (with slightly wider equivalent range at both ends). The 18-135mm is the lens that's usually on my 80D.

If the 24-240 is affordable and good quality, I will be all over that for a general-purpose walk-around lens...

Though, the one I'm really looking forward to is a Canon 24-70 2.8 that finally has IS.


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## epiieq1 (Apr 2, 2019)

I'm really hoping Canon does release something special in a pro mirror-less. Based on wording, I do feel like Canon is feeling the pressure, hence this interview (and others referenced at the end of the article).


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## Hector1970 (Apr 2, 2019)

They didn't seem to be giving much away. I'm continuously surprised they haven't brought out a Pro mirrorless already.
For me that would be a dual slot camera that is better than the Canon 5D IV.
I could understand the logic of the RP but it wouldn't be a great leap forward to produce something better than the EOS R.
I can understand that a 1DR might be difficult camera to come up with.
So many pro lens but not a camera to push those lens to their limits
Nothing wrong with the RP or R both are good cameras but not pushing any new limits in mirrorless.
They don't seem overly concerned with Sony and expect inertia from Canon users.


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## Tom W (Apr 3, 2019)

I think the interview was actually done at the last event, when Canon introduced the 6 additional lenses (Holy Trinity, 24-240, 85's). So, it's dated a few weeks already.


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## Tom W (Apr 3, 2019)

Hector1970 said:


> They didn't seem to be giving much away. I'm continuously surprised they haven't brought out a Pro mirrorless already.
> For me that would be a dual slot camera that is better than the Canon 5D IV.
> I could understand the logic of the RP but it wouldn't be a great leap forward to produce something better than the EOS R.
> I can understand that a 1DR might be difficult camera to come up with.
> ...



I think that there's a couple of things going on. One, the next generation of sensor (next in line from the 5D4/R sensor) is probably nearly completed and would be a shoe-in for both a next-generation DSLR and a pro/semi-pro mirrorless. Also, if they're going for a high-pixel count body, perhaps they wish to again utilize the next generation of sensor technology, which would be the next step after the 80D. I could see a 7D3 and a high-pixel mirrorless full frame coming out with that technology. 

They played the proven cards they had on hand for the first 2 mirrorless bodies, the 26 and 30 mpx sensors. The fact that they're putting out the "holy trinity" of zooms is a strong indication that a high-end body is coming too.

It seems to me that they are concerned about Sony, given that Sony has produced some serious products of late. But the answer to that involves producing better products. The RP and R are good, but the next step is coming.

All IMHO, of course.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Apr 3, 2019)

unfocused said:


> To me, roadmaps are like vaporware. They raise expectations and their main purpose is to lock consumers into a brand in exchange for promises that seldom materialize.


The issue with a roadmap is that it gives competitors too much information about longer term planning, they don't even have to pay spies to obtain it.

Canon's development announcement happened only because they want to sell R series cameras and need to convince potential buyers that they are working on several new lenses.


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## jolyonralph (Apr 3, 2019)

flip314 said:


> If the 24-240 is affordable and good quality, I will be all over that for a general-purpose walk-around lens...





Tom W said:


> The mock-up 24-240 mounted on the RP looks pretty big, but I bet it's a pretty light lens, lighter than the 24-105 RF.



I have the Sony 24-240 FE lens and it's a remarkably unimpressive lens. In terms of weight it's about the same as the RF 24-105, so I'm going to predict that the RF 24-240 will be about the same. 

I'm going to bet that you'll like the RF 24-240 lens if you've never tried the RF 24-105 or anything else better. It's a compromise lens, plain and simple. The ten times zoom is really useful but the image quality won't be anywhere near as good. If it was then Canon would sell it as an L lens.


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## shaunotter (Apr 3, 2019)

Tom W said:


> ...
> The mock-up 24-240 mounted on the RP looks pretty big, but I bet it's a pretty light lens, lighter than the 24-105 RF.



Hopefully the RF 24-240 will be more corrected and also sharper than Sony's, otherwise it will be avoided by most people ... and I would absolutely buy it if it's somewhat weather resistant and built quite solid like the fairly sharp and solid Fujinon XF 18-135mm OIS WR. That lens is great and versatile for travel and video, but also nice/sharp enough for some pro usage, depending on amount of light, etc.


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## shaunotter (Apr 3, 2019)

jolyonralph said:


> I'm going to bet that you'll like the RF 24-240 lens if you've never tried the RF 24-105 or anything else better. It's a compromise lens, plain and simple. The ten times zoom is really useful but the image quality won't be anywhere near as good. If it was then Canon would sell it as an L lens.



You're probably going to be at least partly right, but I hope Canon improves that type/model and we are somewhat pleasantly surprised by their 24-240mm.


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## YuengLinger (Apr 3, 2019)

Didn't we have some claims the RF mount could only help make wider angle lenes easier to downsize? Sigh...So many "experts."


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## shaunotter (Apr 3, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Didn't we have some claims the RF mount could only help make wider angle lenes easier to downsize? Sigh...So many "experts."



It looks to me like they added IS to the wider L-series 2.8 zooms, but still managed to keep them about the same size


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## degos (Apr 3, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Didn't we have some claims the RF mount could only help make wider angle lenes easier to downsize? Sigh...So many "experts."



Per the patent filing the RF 70-200 2.8 is longer when retracted than the EF 70-300 L ( 153 versus 143 mm ) and longer when extended than the EF 70-200 2.8 II ( 223 versus 199 mm ) so forgive me if I can't see where the magical smallness exists.


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## docsmith (Apr 3, 2019)

Tom W said:


> It seems to me that they are concerned about Sony, given that Sony has produced some serious products of late. But the answer to that involves producing better products. The RP and R are good, but the next step is coming.
> 
> All IMHO, of course.


There was a post a few months ago that caught my eye citing a business report that Sony made a massive R&D investment into cameras, but that the camera division was now expected to stand on their own.

The obvious implication being that it would be difficult for Sony to keep up with their rate of innovation or meaningful new product releases. 

This is one of those "we will see" type of things. But Canon seems to have a good long term view of the market and wants to maintain their dominance.


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## YuengLinger (Apr 3, 2019)

degos said:


> Per the patent filing the RF 70-200 2.8 is longer when retracted than the EF 70-300 L ( 153 versus 143 mm ) and longer when extended than the EF 70-200 2.8 II ( 223 versus 199 mm ) so forgive me if I can't see where the magical smallness exists.


I believe Canon's mockup is close to what they'll release.


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## degos (Apr 3, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> I believe Canon's mockup is close to what they'll release.



Though it's difficult to measure due to the angle of the shot it seems like the RF lens when retracted is about 75% the length of the EF, around 150 mm. So in line with the patent.

Also note that the RF lens is constant-diameter, about the same as the EF at its widest point but for the whole barrel length so it's actually more of a handful.

Note how they haven't shown the RF lens fully extended, because that would undermine the 'wow factor'. I conjecture that a retracting EF 70-200 2.8 would be approximately the same size.


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## shaunotter (Apr 3, 2019)

degos said:


> Per the patent filing the RF 70-200 2.8 is longer when retracted than the EF 70-300 L ( 153 versus 143 mm ) and longer when extended than the EF 70-200 2.8 II ( 223 versus 199 mm ) so forgive me if I can't see where the magical smallness exists.



Whyyy would you selectively compare a 70-200 2.8 IS to a much slower 70-300??? ... Just to make it look unimpressive and fit your point of view?

The RF is compact until you need the longer parts of it -- and impressively so! Nice development!


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## QuisUtDeus (Apr 3, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> I believe Canon's mockup is close to what they'll release.



I believe you're right. I also believe that when you use the released 70-200/2.8 at 200mm it will be substantially longer than the mockup.


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## flip314 (Apr 3, 2019)

jolyonralph said:


> I'm going to bet that you'll like the RF 24-240 lens if you've never tried the RF 24-105 or anything else better. It's a compromise lens, plain and simple. The ten times zoom is really useful but the image quality won't be anywhere near as good. If it was then Canon would sell it as an L lens.



I have used the RF 24-105, and better lenses. I still think that "compromise" lenses have a place. Zooms are already "compromised" anyway, but they're way more convenient than carrying around a suitcase full of primes. For days when you want to travel lighter and don't know exactly what you'll be shooting, the 10x zoom range will be incredible.


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## QuisUtDeus (Apr 3, 2019)

flip314 said:


> I have used the RF 24-105, and better lenses. I still think that "compromise" lenses have a place. Zooms are already "compromised" anyway, but they're way more convenient than carrying around a suitcase full of primes. For days when you want to travel lighter and don't know exactly what you'll be shooting, the 10x zoom range will be incredible.



My hope is that the 24-240 + 35/1.8 would make for a nice traveling set. The 24-240 has to produce better output than the 18-135 on a crop, doesn't it? And then for indoors or nighttime shots the 35 will drink in the light.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 3, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Didn't we have some claims the RF mount could only help make wider angle lenes easier to downsize? Sigh...So many "experts."


The claim holds true. The RF mount isn't making the 70-200/2.8 shorter, going from a fixed zoom design to an extending zoom design is making it smaller. The same could be done for EF, but Canon has chosen not to do that.



degos said:


> Per the patent filing the RF 70-200 2.8 is longer when retracted than the EF 70-300 L ( 153 versus 143 mm ) and longer when extended than the EF 70-200 2.8 II ( 223 versus 199 mm ) so forgive me if I can't see where the magical smallness exists.


You're comparing apples to oranges, or in this case, optical formulae to actual lenses. When you look at the 'lens length' in a patent filing, understand that 'measurement' is for the optical formula, which runs from the sensor to the front of the lens. When you look at the measurement of a real lens, you need to add 44mm for EF lenses and 20mm for RF lenses to approximate the 'lens length' in a patent filing. 

My back of the envelope estimate suggests that the sensor to front of lens length will be about the same for the EF 70-200/2.8 on a DSLR and the fully extended RF 70-200/2.8 on an EOS R.


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## GMCPhotographics (Apr 3, 2019)

amorse said:


> "We understand that expectations are really high."
> 
> It seems like Canon engineers say this every time someone asks about a pro mirrorless body. That always catches my attention. Maybe I haven't been watching closely enough, but I don't remember them ever taking a step back like that on other releases - I don't remember them saying anything like that leading into a 1D series or 5D series release. It seems to me that if they weren't working on the pro body they'd just say that they can't disclose their future plans and leave it at that.
> 
> Acknowledging high expectations and then not trying to meet it seems like admitting defeat, so as the market leader I have a hard time seeing Canon do that. It seems like they're making the acknowledgement to subtly say "we're working on it, but it's going to take some time." In the end that statement often seems to raise expectations even more: I'm pretty excited to see what they come up with.



Yes...it's quite clear that this is a marketing exercise presented by a bunch of engineers who can't actually say much due to company NDA's. We all know that a Pro camera is coming...but I suspect that it's not the all encompassing Pro camera we are assuming ie a 1dRf. A 7DII, 5D4 and 5Dsr are all classed as pro cameras...so it's most likely a double accounting announcement for the already rumored 5Dsr replacement. Some pros will jump at the idea...but most pros will not. A 5Dsr replacement in the Rf format means that Canon can release a "pro" featured camera (dual slots, weather sealing, joystick etc) but without actually having to release a 1dx capable AF system using the software based AF system that the Rf mount is using. We all know that system will arrive at some point...but it's way off and Canon currently don't have the system working at that kind of speed yet (15fps in continuous servo mode). 
At the moment the Rf mount is for every one except high frame rate and big white lens users. When the tech is there...i'm sure Canon will launch a range of DO super teles along with a 1D equivalent Rf camera body.


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## BillB (Apr 4, 2019)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Yes...it's quite clear that this is a marketing exercise presented by a bunch of engineers who can't actually say much due to company NDA's. We all know that a Pro camera is coming...but I suspect that it's not the all encompassing Pro camera we are assuming ie a 1dRf. A 7DII, 5D4 and 5Dsr are all classed as pro cameras...so it's most likely a double accounting announcement for the already rumored 5Dsr replacement. Some pros will jump at the idea...but most pros will not. A 5Dsr replacement in the Rf format means that Canon can release a "pro" featured camera (dual slots, weather sealing, joystick etc) but without actually having to release a 1dx capable AF system using the software based AF system that the Rf mount is using. We all know that system will arrive at some point...but it's way off and Canon currently don't have the system working at that kind of speed yet (15fps in continuous servo mode).
> At the moment the Rf mount is for every one except high frame rate and big white lens users. When the tech is there...i'm sure Canon will launch a range of DO super teles along with a 1D equivalent Rf camera body.


Looking at it another way, if you are going to upgrade the 5DsR sensor, why not do it in a new R "pro" camera (with a couple of card slots to keep everybody happy). Not sure How much practical value IBIS would have with all those megapixels, but a lot of people would be unhappy without that too. A tripod might be more sensible though.


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## FramerMCB (Apr 4, 2019)

jolyonralph said:


> I have the Sony 24-240 FE lens and it's a remarkably unimpressive lens. In terms of weight it's about the same as the RF 24-105, so I'm going to predict that the RF 24-240 will be about the same.
> 
> I'm going to bet that you'll like the RF 24-240 lens if you've never tried the RF 24-105 or anything else better. It's a compromise lens, plain and simple. The ten times zoom is really useful but the image quality won't be anywhere near as good. If it was then Canon would sell it as an L lens.


You do realize that Canon already has made (it's quite old now) and is making the 28-300mm f3.5-5.6L IS lens right? And by all accounts it's a pretty decent lens other than it's a "weighty" beast, performance wise pretty good. I'm guessing with all of the much newer tech to design and build lenses today that the 24-240mm will be a decent performer, hopefully similar to the Canon EF-S 15-85mm f3.5-5.6 IS USM. But time will tell.


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## Trey T (Apr 5, 2019)

*



How have you made the 70-200mm [f/2.8] so small?

Click to expand...

*


> We were actually surprised as we started developing this particular product. The idea is that, with the introduction of the large diameter mount with the shorter back-focus distance, we were expecting it to be more suitable for designing wider-angle lenses, but it turned out to be very effective for designing this telephoto lens.


Next thing you know, they will improve it to make it faster, allowing more lights in. Maybe not since the sensor sensitivity (ISO) continues to improve and may compensate for faster lenses. However, there might interest in getting more DoF @ 70mm, e.g. 70-200 f/2.0-2.8.

I assumed the world top lens maker (i.e. Canon) is surprised by traditional lens design (aka physics).


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## QuisUtDeus (Apr 7, 2019)

Trey T said:


> I assumed the world top lens maker (i.e. Canon) is surprised by traditional lens design (aka physics).



Why would you take anything said in a marketing fluff piece at face value?


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## Trey T (Apr 8, 2019)

QuisUtDeus said:


> Why would you take anything said in a marketing fluff piece at face value?


So you believe that CR made up the story?


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## QuisUtDeus (Apr 9, 2019)

Trey T said:


> So you believe that CR made up the story?



You are being rude and belligerent, and for some reason are aggressively misinterpreting what I said.

For the benefit of others, Canon treats all of these sorts of interviews as additional opportunities to perform additional marketing puffery. "Wow, this lens mount is so good it surprised even us!". This is the same company that in another recent interview with DPR (https://www.dpreview.com/interviews...e-want-to-capture-as-many-customers-as-we-can) refused to confirm that the RF70-200/2.8 will extend. These interviews are vaguely interesting, but nothing new will come out of them, no insight into their future plans and certainly no new product information. Marketing and nothing more. Any real information will be revealed through carefully-crafted press releases.


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## jolyonralph (Apr 15, 2019)

FramerMCB said:


> You do realize that Canon already has made (it's quite old now) and is making the 28-300mm f3.5-5.6L IS lens right? And by all accounts it's a pretty decent lens



Well, yes, I am fully aware of that lens (and the older 35-350 it replaced). Great lens when 10 megapixel sensors were the norm. But nowadays, I certainly wouldn't use one on any modern >20mpx body.

As I said before the RF 24-240 will, I'm sure, produce acceptable results. But it's not going to be anywhere near even the RF 24-105 in terms of image quality.


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## jolyonralph (Apr 15, 2019)

QuisUtDeus said:


> My hope is that the 24-240 + 35/1.8 would make for a nice traveling set. The 24-240 has to produce better output than the 18-135 on a crop, doesn't it? And then for indoors or nighttime shots the 35 will drink in the light.



I've done just that. I took the A7RII with the FE 24-240 and the Sony Zeiss 35mm f/2.8 with me when I went to Myanmar a couple of years ago. The 24-240 ended up staying in the bag most of the time. i'm probably going to try to trade the 24-240 for the 24-70 f/4 which I suspect I'll use a lot more.


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## QuisUtDeus (Apr 15, 2019)

jolyonralph said:


> I've done just that. I took the A7RII with the FE 24-240 and the Sony Zeiss 35mm f/2.8 with me when I went to Myanmar a couple of years ago. The 24-240 ended up staying in the bag most of the time. i'm probably going to try to trade the 24-240 for the 24-70 f/4 which I suspect I'll use a lot more.



That sort of feedback makes me wonder if the way to go is M50 + 22/2 or SL2 + 24pancake.


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## FramerMCB (Apr 17, 2019)

jolyonralph said:


> I've done just that. I took the A7RII with the FE 24-240 and the Sony Zeiss 35mm f/2.8 with me when I went to Myanmar a couple of years ago. The 24-240 ended up staying in the bag most of the time. i'm probably going to try to trade the 24-240 for the 24-70 f/4 which I suspect I'll use a lot more.


You need to go for that new "bigma", the Sigma 60-600mm... That will cover everything but the short end. ;-)


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## jolyonralph (Apr 19, 2019)

QuisUtDeus said:


> That sort of feedback makes me wonder if the way to go is M50 + 22/2 or SL2 + 24pancake.



The EF-M 22 is a beautiful lens. Get the new M5 mark II when it comes out, get the EF-M 22, the EF-M 32 and the EF-M 11-22 as and when you can afford them - and I'd add on soemthing like the EF 70-200 f/4 with the EF-M-EF adaptor for reach.


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