# EOS M Update Information [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 18, 2013)

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<p><strong>Same sensor as 70D?

</strong>Another couple of emails have mentioned at least one of the updated EOS M bodies will feature the same 20.2mp APS-C sensor as the EOS 70D. DIGIC 6 is also going to be in both bodies. We’ve reported this before, it just seems we’re getting more confirmations on the topic.</p>
<p>We also got a mention about an EF-M 55-200 IS STM lens coming whenever a body is announced. We have heard various focal lengths for the telephoto zoom that will come to the EF-M mount. A grain of salt on this one.</p>
<p>I receive emails almost daily asking about the possibility of a full frame EOS M body. I do not see this happening for the foreseeable future.</p>
<p><strong>When?

</strong>We haven’t confirmed the reports of an announcement this week, nor have we heard from the usual suspects in that regard. I would think if Canon wants to reinvigorate the EOS M line, then a little bit of fanfare should be expected.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## pharp (Sep 18, 2013)

Sounds like there on the right track - big question now, how much? Presumably less than a 70D.


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## AvTvM (Sep 18, 2013)

> Sounds like there on the right track





> I receive emails almost daily asking about the possibility of a full frame EOS M body. I do not see this happening for the foreseeable future.


to me it sounds looks like they're on the wrong track. 



> big question now, how much? Presumably less than a 70D.


No, it will be 200 USD/Euro more expensive than a 70D. Stupids ehm, esteemed Canon customers - will buy it anyway. And it makes for a higher percentage discount, once they sell all the inventory at fire sale price. 



> When?
> We haven’t confirmed the reports of an announcement this week, nor have we heard from the usual suspects in that regard. I would think if Canon wants to reinvigorate the EOS M line, then a little bit of fanfare should be expected.


Ideal timing would be the day before or after Sony announces its new full-frame mirrorless cameras. ;D

LOL


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## infared (Sep 18, 2013)

Pretty funny...Canon comes to the mirrorless segment dead last...with an absolute dog of a product...overpriced and lagging behind all of the other manufactures...Why?
Now, after all of the complaints and disappointment just about everywhere (until they cut the price in half),...they may get it right. Is there anyone at the helm of market awareness???
Sounds like this may be a much better offering. Let's hope they can save a little face here. The rumors sound promising!


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## pharp (Sep 18, 2013)

infared said:


> Pretty funny...Canon comes to the mirrorless segment dead last...with an absolute dog of a product...overpriced and lagging behind all of the other manufactures...Why?
> Now, after all of the complaints and disappointment just about everywhere (until they cut the price in half),...they may get it right. Is there anyone at the helm of market awareness???
> Sounds like this may be a much better offering. Let's hope they can save a little face here. The rumors sound promising!



Agreed, they may actually have something with decent AF, maybe an EVF and add some more lenses, especially * IF* they can keep it under a grand. I would also love to see a Metabones speed booster for this. Despite it obvious flaws, I really rather like mine.


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## Bob Howland (Sep 18, 2013)

If Canon wanted to introduce a FF mirrorless camera, my guess is that they would simply shorten the sensor-to-flange distance of the current EF mount and introduce both a new series of lenses and an adapter so that current lenses could also be used. APS-C *is* full frame for the EOS-M lensmount.

As for reinvigorating the EOS M line, fanfare would be good but only if they use it to introduce a much broader range of bodies and many more lenses.


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## Dylan777 (Sep 18, 2013)

I *REALLY REALLY* want FF, Retro Design, mirrorless :


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## SwampYankee (Sep 18, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> I *REALLY REALLY* want FF, Retro Design, mirrorless :


pick 2. Full frame mirrorless? upcoming Sony NEX-9
Mirrorless Retro? Fuji x100S


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## SwampYankee (Sep 18, 2013)

I know that they would not show up here but when are we going to see a glimmer of a new line of sensors? Hopefully in the 7DII. Truth be told Canon is making some great cameras. New features, great lenses, excellent stuff, but any Canon camera you buy has a sensor that is outclassed by the other manufacturers. If I'm going to drop big dollars I want something that will not be obsolete as soon as I drive it out of the showroom. I'm in the market for a mirrorless. I have the money, ready to pull the trigger ,give me something good


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## Dylan777 (Sep 18, 2013)

SwampYankee said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > I *REALLY REALLY* want FF, Retro Design, mirrorless :
> ...



Since I already own RX1, I'm more than happy with Fuji retro, just bring that crop sensor to 35mm. I can shoot with 35mm(f1.4ish) fixed lens all day 

I doubt the rumor Sony FF, NEX-9 would have same body size as RX1 :


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## fxk (Sep 18, 2013)

Don't count on FF ... I ass-u-me, that like the EF-S lenses, this M dedicated glass was not designed to have an image circle to cover FF. I believe the die is cast. 

As a FF proponent, and at the risk of opening the old can of worms, other than at short focal lengths, what REAL advantage does FF have in the real world? Keep in mind, folks, this camera was not designed to be a replacement for a 1-series camera.


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## josephandrews222 (Sep 18, 2013)

Bob Howland said:


> APS-C *is* full frame for the EOS-M lensmount.



Well stated.

I am looking forward to getting my hands on the M-sized 55-250 or whatever it is--the singular advantage of the M is its overall footprint--so will this new zoom be significantly smaller than its EF-S counterpart?

Canon really does have a conundrum with the M that includes the 70D sensor.

What will people be willing to pay for this souped-up M? I honestly don't know...


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## privatebydesign (Sep 18, 2013)

fxk said:


> Don't count on FF ... I ass-u-me, that like the EF-S lenses, this M dedicated glass was not designed to have an image circle to cover FF. I believe the die is cast.
> 
> As a FF proponent, and at the risk of opening the old can of worms, other than at short focal lengths, what REAL advantage does FF have in the real world? Keep in mind, folks, this camera was not designed to be a replacement for a 1-series camera.



Over one stop of noise, over one stop less DOF for the same framing (but that isn't necessarily an advantage).

No, bearing in mind what the camera was designed for this constant clamoring for FF really is comical, especially because if they did make one the price would be too high, or not the right lens selection, or the buttons too rounded, the battery too big/small. I see virtually no actual market for a FF mirrorless, a handful of wealthy enthusiasts. Well we already have Leica for them and Sony can keep the rest happy. Can you imagine the blasting Canon would get here if they brought out a FF mirrorless with a fixed lens for over $2,000?

I think the APS-C sensor format is the sweet spot for these cameras.


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## Dylan777 (Sep 18, 2013)

fxk said:


> As a FF proponent, and at the risk of opening the old can of worms, other than at short focal lengths, what REAL advantage does FF have in the real world? Keep in mind, folks, this camera was not designed to be a replacement for a 1-series camera.



Since the M has slower AF speed, the real advatange off FF mirrorless:

1. Be able to use 6400ISO or 12,000ish maybe
2. Compact, lighter, easy to carry around


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## fxk (Sep 18, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> fxk said:
> 
> 
> > Don't count on FF ... I ass-u-me, that like the EF-S lenses, this M dedicated glass was not designed to have an image circle to cover FF. I believe the die is cast.
> ...



Even if it were interchangeable lens... $2K would indeed be laughable. This new one best come in around $700, or prepare for yet another belly flop. 

The original M at the original price (irrespective of the performance panning) was not an attractive option. The price drop made it a give-away and maybe created a otherwise uninterested customer base for their new M. I'm among that number.

Noise is less an issue as each sensor gen is released, but is an issue. DOF at same framing: com se com sa.
Indeed, APS-C is the sweet spot, and for many reasons, will all the M will all ever be.


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## mountain_drew (Sep 18, 2013)

josephandrews222 said:


> Bob Howland said:
> 
> 
> > APS-C *is* full frame for the EOS-M lensmount.
> ...


As I said in another thread, I think sony's Nex-3N and Nex-6 are good examples for Canon. Cheap : weak fill in flash, tiltable lcd, no EVF, fewer connection for external stuff. Expansive : EVF (maybe tiltable), better LCD, more buttons, more connections (mic and headphone stuff maybe?), better grip.


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## dtaylor (Sep 18, 2013)

SwampYankee said:


> I know that they would not show up here but when are we going to see a glimmer of a new line of sensors? ...but any Canon camera you buy has a sensor that is outclassed by the other manufacturers.



Please...no...not this dead horse again :-[


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## dtaylor (Sep 18, 2013)

fxk said:


> As a FF proponent, and at the risk of opening the old can of worms, other than at short focal lengths, what REAL advantage does FF have in the real world? Keep in mind, folks, this camera was not designed to be a replacement for a 1-series camera.



The high ISO on Canon's current FF sensors is admittedly pretty amazing. (As for the "Canon's sensors are behind!" crowd, I say the 6D is 1 stop better overall at the highest ISOs then the D600 even though the D600 has better noise in shadows that are pushed hard.)

It's absolutely great to be able to shoot at 25,600...but it's not often that is actually needed. For the vast majority of photographic tasks, APS-C is fine. And slowly improving in Canon's line. (My M's sensor is better then my 7D's sensor, and the 70D is better still from what I've been able to see online. Small improvements, but there.)


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 18, 2013)

That would make a lot of sense. Hopefully not too much .
If they get the 70D sensor in there and then they have the new AF they could finally have something with their M system.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 18, 2013)

SwampYankee said:


> I know that they would not show up here but when are we going to see a glimmer of a new line of sensors? Hopefully in the 7DII. Truth be told Canon is making some great cameras. New features, great lenses, excellent stuff, but any Canon camera you buy has a sensor that is outclassed by the other manufacturers. If I'm going to drop big dollars I want something that will not be obsolete as soon as I drive it out of the showroom. I'm in the market for a mirrorless. I have the money, ready to pull the trigger ,give me something good



Yeah, in all honesty if the next round 7D2/5D4 doesn't have better sensors (And if they end up making 5D4 video worse than ML hacked 5D3 RAW video) I will not buy either and I will hold off on more lenses and maybe even nab a nikon with one lens to start going a bit dual system. If the following round doesn't either, as much as I don't want to, I will switch over systems entirely.


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## Etienne (Sep 19, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> SwampYankee said:
> 
> 
> > I know that they would not show up here but when are we going to see a glimmer of a new line of sensors? Hopefully in the 7DII. Truth be told Canon is making some great cameras. New features, great lenses, excellent stuff, but any Canon camera you buy has a sensor that is outclassed by the other manufacturers. If I'm going to drop big dollars I want something that will not be obsolete as soon as I drive it out of the showroom. I'm in the market for a mirrorless. I have the money, ready to pull the trigger ,give me something good
> ...



You may switch, but it won't be an improvement. You'll just get a different system with different weaknesses; it's not all roses in the Nikon camp. For an awful lot of us, the 5D3 is the best all-round value for the money available today. I wish some things were better on the 5D3, but what camera offers better in that price range? Not the D800: moire and aliasing in video, slower fps, no magic lantern option, not as ergonomic (YMMV). 

I'd like a C300 for video at $3000, but not happening today. It's available today, but just too expensive for me. When the C300 is $3000, the lust worthy options will be $15,000.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 19, 2013)

Etienne said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > SwampYankee said:
> ...



Well if nikon video is still no good, i'd just keep the old 5d3 and a lens or two for video and have to live with that compromise, if by 5D5 they still don't have better DR, forget it. Even if the 5D4 doesn't have it I'll be just about there.


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## ranplett (Sep 19, 2013)

> The high ISO on Canon's current FF sensors is admittedly pretty amazing. (As for the "Canon's sensors are behind!" crowd, I say the 6D is 1 stop better overall at the highest ISOs then the D600 even though the D600 has better noise in shadows that are pushed hard.)



I'd rather have cleaner pushed shadows at base ISO's, effectively improving DR over slightly less noise at ISO 12800. To me Canon sensor tech is still way behind Sony. I just love pushing shadows and pulling highlights.

Anyone using the old argument of learning the gear better, or bringing fill lights, that is such a joke. A real photog knows that they'll have to push and pull to get the image looking right.


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## fxk (Sep 19, 2013)

Wow. This thread certainly went off-topic fast. Stick a fork in this one: it's done.


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## dtaylor (Sep 19, 2013)

ranplett said:


> I'd rather have cleaner pushed shadows at base ISO's, effectively improving DR over slightly less noise at ISO 12800. To me Canon sensor tech is still way behind Sony. I just love pushing shadows and pulling highlights.
> 
> Anyone using the old argument of learning the gear better, or bringing fill lights, that is such a joke. A real photog knows that they'll have to push and pull to get the image looking right.



I'm sorry, but I have yet to see one person prove the difference means anything in practice. I push/pull some of my Canon photos pretty hard, including crop sensor RAWs, without difficulty. Is there more noise then there would be on a Sony sensor while pixel peeping? Yes. Does it ruin the image when viewed normally? Can't even see it.

Sure you can underexpose a dark brick wall and shove the ACR slider to +5 and the Sony looks better. (And if you want to bias it, turn NR down or off completely.) Right up until it's compared to a properly exposed shot and you realize that A) you shouldn't rely on ACR to fix gross exposure errors, and B) if you need dramatic DR then you are best off blending exposures. Tonality is typically trashed in the dark brick wall samples people use to "prove" that Sony sensors have better DR.

Sony sensors have better DR, but not by enough to be worth the forum drama. Personally I would rather have the cleaner overall high ISO.

Oh yeah..."real photogs" do everything in their power to capture great light and/or shape their light, because light is *everything.* If their choice is between pushing shadow detail that has no real tonality or pushing an image that was blended or shot with a graduated ND filter, they will choose the latter if at all possible.


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## Rienzphotoz (Sep 19, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> I *REALLY REALLY* want FF, Retro Design, mirrorless :


+1 but with a view finder PLEASE


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## Rienzphotoz (Sep 19, 2013)

Bob Howland said:


> many more lenses.


Lots of tiny prime lenses (similar to the current 22mm lens size) and a tiny radio trigger ... *please*
This is what I have in mind:
* EF-M 10mm at least f/4 
* EF-M 16mm f/2.8 at least
* EF-M 35mm f/2 at least
* EF-M 50mm f/1.8 at least
* EF-M 85mm f/1.8 at least
* EF-M 100mm Macro f/2.8 at least
* Last but not the least ... a tiny version of the ST-E3-RT speedlite transmitter
That would make me very happy


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## ranplett (Sep 19, 2013)

dtaylor said:


> I'm sorry, but I have yet to see one person prove the difference means anything in practice. I push/pull some of my Canon photos pretty hard, including crop sensor RAWs, without difficulty. Is there more noise then there would be on a Sony sensor while pixel peeping? Yes. Does it ruin the image when viewed normally? Can't even see it.
> 
> Sure you can underexpose a dark brick wall and shove the ACR slider to +5 and the Sony looks better. (And if you want to bias it, turn NR down or off completely.) Right up until it's compared to a properly exposed shot and you realize that A) you shouldn't rely on ACR to fix gross exposure errors, and B) if you need dramatic DR then you are best off blending exposures. Tonality is typically trashed in the dark brick wall samples people use to "prove" that Sony sensors have better DR.
> 
> ...



Hey, no need to be sorry. We can agree to disagree. From my experience, I get a lot of pattern noise when I push shadows, and they are very visible, especially if the sensor heats up (which it does quickly). This is from a 5D mk II. From the sample images I've worked with, the more recent Nikon images seem much cleaner and more workable. As for the various ways of working with light, bracketing, HDR, strobes, reflectors, scrims, etc. I think ND grads don't really apply because they are quite limited in what you can do, along with the bulk and time it takes to set up, I'd rather just bracket and manually piece the image together in PS.

A beautiful photograph is most important. I just want it to look cleaner. Pattern noise in the shadows of a 5dII image, or even 5DIII image somewhat inhibits my processing. I appreciate your perspective though. Sometimes I can be too OCD.


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## RGomezPhotos (Sep 19, 2013)

I'm quite excited about a better EOS-M coming out. The original, after the firmware update, seemed to be a very decent camera. I mean, this is a Point and Shoot for crying out loud.

I played briefly with the Canon 70D. It's an impressive camera. If that sensor is going into the EOS M.. That's going to be a beautiful thing.


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## Fleetie (Sep 19, 2013)

RGomezPhotos said:


> I'm quite excited about a better EOS-M coming out. The original, after the firmware update, seemed to be a very decent camera. I mean, this is a Point and Shoot for crying out loud.
> 
> I played briefly with the Canon 70D. It's an impressive camera. If that sensor is going into the EOS M.. That's going to be a beautiful thing.


Yes, I am getting impatient for it, too. I wish they'd just announce the thing!


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## Dylan777 (Sep 19, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> Bob Howland said:
> 
> 
> > many more lenses.
> ...



Count me in for these:
EF-M 10mm at least f/4
EF-M 50mm f/1.8 at least


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## Chris Burch (Sep 19, 2013)

A "new" 55-200 IS STM was posted for pre-order on Adorama last night? Is that the same one mentioned in the inital post? If so, at least half of the rumor is true.


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## jebrady03 (Sep 19, 2013)

Chris Burch said:


> A "new" 55-200 IS STM was posted for pre-order on Adorama last night? Is that the same one mentioned in the inital post? If so, at least half of the rumor is true.



I checked out Adorama's site and didn't see it. Do you have a screen shot or a link?


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 19, 2013)

jebrady03 said:


> Chris Burch said:
> 
> 
> > A "new" 55-200 IS STM was posted for pre-order on Adorama last night? Is that the same one mentioned in the inital post? If so, at least half of the rumor is true.
> ...



Seems he's talking about the EF*-S* 55-2*5*0 f/4-5.6 IS STM, which Adorama has labeled as a 'new release'.


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## UrbanVoyeur (Sep 19, 2013)

Any word on:
- Flip up screen
- WiFi
- GPS
- Built in flash


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## fxk (Sep 19, 2013)

UrbanVoyeur said:


> Any word on:
> - Flip up screen
> - WiFi
> - GPS
> - Built in flash



Current M camera can utilize Eye Fi cards, so Wi Fi is solved. :-*


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 19, 2013)

I'm guessing that the next iteration of the EOS M will not be waterproof. 

Nikon just announced a waterproof mirrorless system.


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## fxk (Sep 19, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> I'm guessing that the next iteration of the EOS M will not be waterproof.
> 
> Nikon just announced a waterproof mirrorless system.



The next body may be (probably not) but the current lenses surely are not. 
A bird and a fish may fall in love, but where would they live?


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## RGomezPhotos (Sep 19, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> I'm guessing that the next iteration of the EOS M will not be waterproof.
> 
> Nikon just announced a waterproof mirrorless system.



For $800 dollars? It's cool. But that much for a fairly mediocre camera? I'll pass...


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## dtaylor (Sep 19, 2013)

RGomezPhotos said:


> For $800 dollars? It's cool. But that much for a fairly mediocre camera? I'll pass...



Yep. The problem is that the Nikon 1 sensors aren't much better then the sensors they're putting in waterproof P&S bodies which are a lot cheaper.

I'm baffled as to why Nikon hasn't started using the sensor used in the Sony RX100.


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## Don Haines (Sep 19, 2013)

fxk said:


> UrbanVoyeur said:
> 
> 
> > Any word on:
> ...


Eye Fi just gives you file transfer... many like WiFi for the remote control abilities.


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