# The Canon EOS M5 Mark II and Canon EOS M6 Mark II are on the way [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 24, 2019)

> WIth Canon expected to announce new products on or around August 28, 2019, things have started to leak, true or not. It’s expected that at least the Canon EOS M5 will get a replacement, but we’ve seen our first mention of a Canon EOS M6 replacement coming at the same time.
> We have received our first mention of new EOS M bodies for the first time in a long time.
> *Canon EOS M5 Mark II & Canon EOS M6 Mark II:*
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## Hector1970 (Jul 24, 2019)

_Hmm Project _Nacho. Sounds tasty
Slim maybe. 
Well Canon are still investing in the M Series. It’s a series that seemed a dead end to me but must be doing well enough for Canon to give it more support with new cameras.
It’s small and compact and well loved by users.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 24, 2019)

Hector1970 said:


> _Hmm Project _Nacho. Sounds tasty
> Slim maybe.
> Well Canon are still investing in the M Series. It’s a series that seemed a dead end to me but must be doing well enough for Canon to give it more support with new cameras.
> It’s small and compact and well loved by users.



I think the EOS M lineup could become a regional system. For a while, a few EF-M lenses weren't available in North America.


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## michi (Jul 24, 2019)

I'm currently selling my M6. The one thing that drives me insane is the slow CPU. Switching between some functions, especially between image review and back is painfully slow. As is AF still. I've lost too many images waiting for the camera and it's not like I am a sports or action photographer. I'm over it. Somehow I don't have faith that the Mark II will fix things. I would be happy to be surprised though as I am keeping my lenses for now, just in case.


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## Mr Majestyk (Jul 24, 2019)

The fact Sigma will release lenses in M mount gives you confidence it's not going anywhere soon.


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## koenkooi (Jul 24, 2019)

michi said:


> I'm currently selling my M6. The one thing that drives me insane is the slow CPU. Switching between some functions, especially between image review and back is painfully slow. As is AF still. I've lost too many images waiting for the camera and it's not like I am a sports or action photographer. I'm over it. Somehow I don't have faith that the Mark II will fix things. I would be happy to be surprised though as I am keeping my lenses for now, just in case.



What surprised me is that the same internal SoC, Digic 8, the RP feels a lot more responsive in the menus and handling than the m50. I have both in the 'classic' mode without the pretty illustrations and help text.


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## 12Broncos (Jul 24, 2019)

Patiently waiting.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 24, 2019)

michi said:


> I'm currently selling my M6. The one thing that drives me insane is the slow CPU. Switching between some functions, especially between image review and back is painfully slow. As is AF still. I've lost too many images waiting for the camera and it's not like I am a sports or action photographer. I'm over it. Somehow I don't have faith that the Mark II will fix things. I would be happy to be surprised though as I am keeping my lenses for now, just in case.


I am, and I'm looking forwards to taking a very close look at the M5 II, once the top of the line M gets full EOS firmware it will get much speedier. Once it gets quicker AF and image review it will be an amazing sleeper APS-C camera making a very capable compliment to an EF or RF system. 

I recently got the M5 after having the original M since release, the 18-150 is a very high quality general use lens pared with the 22 f2 I am very very happy.


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## koenkooi (Jul 24, 2019)

I really wish Canon would release a new M with the same body as the original M. I have a Richard Franiec grip on mine which makes it near perfect. I'd settle for an M6 style body, but not with an EVF bulge. 
The M10/M100 don't work for me since they lack a hot-shoe. The EL-100 or 270EX-II do a great job as fill flash when using the EF-M.


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## koenkooi (Jul 24, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I am, and I'm looking forwards to taking a very close look at the M5 II, once the top of the line M gets full EOS firmware it will get much speedier. Once it gets quicker AF and image review it will be an amazing sleeper APS-C camera making a very capable compliment to an EF or RF system.
> [..]



I also hope they move the trash button away from the d-pad to the bottom right, where it is on the RP. It would make quickly deleting pictures from bursts less tedious. 
Another feature from the RP that I'd like to see is that the magnify button in playback can zoom in on the focus point, not zoom out to show 4 pictures like it currently does. It's a great way to verify eye-AF did its thing and check if you didn't make the camera go back to 1/60th.


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## andrei1989 (Jul 24, 2019)

any news on lenses? something similar to what fuji just launched, 16-80 f4, and what sony had for many years, 16-70 f4
the M5 body currently works great for me and i wouldn't upgrade


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## BillB (Jul 24, 2019)

Mr Majestyk said:


> The fact Sigma will release lenses in M mount gives you confidence it's not going anywhere soon.


It will be interesting to see how many Sigma EF-M primes get bought. They do complement slow zooms very nicely. Between Canon and Sigma, there will be a fair number of zooms to choose from.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 24, 2019)

Hector1970 said:


> _Hmm Project _Nacho. Sounds tasty


I wondered about the authenticity of the ‘code name’, but maybe nachos are a thing in Japan. They have nacho-flavored Pringles!


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## slclick (Jul 24, 2019)

Hmm, Canon's E-X3? I'd be fine with that form factor. Just lose the Powershot menus


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## BillB (Jul 24, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I am, and I'm looking forwards to taking a very close look at the M5 II, once the top of the line M gets full EOS firmware it will get much speedier. Once it gets quicker AF and image review it will be an amazing sleeper APS-C camera making a very capable compliment to an EF or RF system.
> 
> I recently got the M5 after having the original M since release, the 18-150 is a very high quality general use lens pared with the 22 f2 I am very very happy.


Hmmm. Full EOS firmware. Might that be part of a rational for an RFmount aps-c camera?


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## zonoskar (Jul 24, 2019)

M6 with pop-up EVF and M5 with fixed EVF and hotshoe. I hope the rest will be identical (so also touch-n-drag focus for M6-II now).


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## Josh Leavitt (Jul 24, 2019)

zonoskar said:


> M6 with pop-up EVF and M5 with fixed EVF and hotshoe. I hope the rest will be identical (so also touch-n-drag focus for M6-II now).



My thoughts exactly. I'm really hoping the M6 II will employ the same pop-up EVF that the G5 X II is using. If it was also designed to allow for an attachable magnifier (say a x1.25), then it would be even more useful. But I could make do with just a pop-up EVF.


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## Stephenmreyes (Jul 24, 2019)

Will they remove 24fps?!


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## privatebydesign (Jul 24, 2019)

BillB said:


> Hmmm. Full EOS firmware. Might that be part of a rational for an RFmount aps-c camera?


I don't see that as likely. Given the size weight and quality of the RF lenses to date I think Canon's intent is to make the R line a high quality higher cost ff system, I'd expect them to leave APS-C to the M and the generally low cost slower zooms much better suited to a more general audience and market. 

The lines between the EF and EF-s market became very grey, at this point the differences between the EF-M and RF are very apparent to even the most basic of consumers. Why muddy the waters with an RF-S series of bodies and lenses when I'd think, in this shrinking camera market, R&D is best focused on the actual RF line and possibly a couple more complimentary EF-M lenses to keep people like me happy with our $1,000 bodies.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 24, 2019)

Stephenmreyes said:


> Will they remove 24fps?!


If they do I will just shoot 25p and not give a damn. Every single video capable Canon camera can shoot 25p.


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## mpb001 (Jul 24, 2019)

With the ever cheaper FF mirrorless cameras continually evolving, I’m really not sure of the point of the M series anymore. I guess Canon knows there must be a market for it, but with the market being over saturated, I just don’t see the point in making it anymore.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 24, 2019)

mpb001 said:


> With the ever cheaper FF mirrorless cameras continually evolving, I’m really not sure of the point of the M series anymore. I guess Canon knows there must be a market for it, but with the market being over saturated, I just don’t see the point in making it anymore.


Size, weight, cost! As has been proven you can make the FF camera body smaller but you can't make the lenses to cover that FF sensor smaller, indeed if customers demand ever higher pixel count and pixel level image quality then the lenses have gotten bigger and heavier and even more expensive.

Of course all this ignores the fact that the M is the best selling camera line in several key markets! It's like Europeans saying _'why don't Ford stop making F150's they only sell a few thousand a year in Europe?'_


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## FramerMCB (Jul 24, 2019)

Hector1970 said:


> _Hmm Project _Nacho. Sounds tasty
> Slim maybe.
> Well Canon are still investing in the M Series. It’s a series that seemed a dead end to me but must be doing well enough for Canon to give it more support with new cameras.
> It’s small and compact and well loved by users.


Coupled with the fact that Sigma is introducing 4 new M-mount lenses soon. Remember that CR bit from a couple weeks ago...?


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## FramerMCB (Jul 24, 2019)

Mr Majestyk said:


> The fact Sigma will release lenses in M mount gives you confidence it's not going anywhere soon.


Yes! This. And I'm quite sure that Sigma would not be taking this step without very good info/assurances (maybe insider, or some tacit private agreement) that Canon would continue to develop and release M-series bodies.


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## mpb001 (Jul 24, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Size, weight, cost! As has been proven you can make the FF camera body smaller but you can't make the lenses to cover that FF sensor smaller, indeed if customers demand ever higher pixel count and pixel level image quality then the lenses have gotten bigger and heavier and even more expensive.
> 
> Of course all this ignores the fact that the M is the best selling camera line in several key markets! It's like Europeans saying _'why don't Ford stop making F150's they only sell a few thousand a year in Europe?'_


Yes, I do understand about the size and weight. I guess Canon understands the market.


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## LensFungus (Jul 24, 2019)

Project Nacho means that Canon will release the first edible cameras [CR4]

Sony is ******* [CR5]


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## padam (Jul 24, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> If they do I will just shoot 25p and not give a damn. Every single video capable Canon camera can shoot 25p.


But 4k still remains 24fps only, they only remove it from 1080p.

That being said, it is probably a flagship mirrorless APS-C model with a new sensor, so they will probably bring them back, and the price will be higher than what people expect.


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## LSXPhotog (Jul 24, 2019)

michi said:


> I'm currently selling my M6. The one thing that drives me insane is the slow CPU. Switching between some functions, especially between image review and back is painfully slow. As is AF still. I've lost too many images waiting for the camera and it's not like I am a sports or action photographer. I'm over it. Somehow I don't have faith that the Mark II will fix things. I would be happy to be surprised though as I am keeping my lenses for now, just in case.


It's remarkable how different the speed of my M5 is from my M50 in all aspects. I still greatly prefer shooting the M5 because of the superior manual controls. I am really looking forward to a new M5. I'm sure the M6 will be a reduced spec M6 with a pop-up EVF or something.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 24, 2019)

padam said:


> But 4k still remains 24fps only, they only remove it from 1080p.
> 
> That being said, it is probably a flagship mirrorless APS-C model with a new sensor, so they will probably bring them back, and the price will be higher than what people expect.


So shoot 1080 25p, done.

I’m sorry I just don’t see limitations only opportunities, I don’t think what can’t this do and why am I being penalized, I think this is great and has these new capabilities look where it can take me. I am more interested in tethering abilities, .cr3 compatibility with mobile DPP Express, intervalometer, full functionality with the 470EX AI etc things that give me real advantages, than getting bent out of shape over the non difference between 24p and 25p in 1080.


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## LSXPhotog (Jul 24, 2019)

I've been waiting for this camera since the EF-M 32mm came out. I really love my M cameras and the M50 is selling so well that Canon must be paying attention. It's just a shame that there wasn't a better pathway to upgrade to the RF mount, so I'm sure the time for this camera system is limited.

I would like to see a grip attachment for the M5 so that it was more comfortable when adapting EF lenses or when using a flash on top.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jul 24, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I don't see that as likely. Given the size weight and quality of the RF lenses to date I think Canon's intent is to make the R line a high quality higher cost ff system, I'd expect them to leave APS-C to the M and the generally low cost slower zooms much better suited to a more general audience and market.
> 
> The lines between the EF and EF-s market became very grey, at this point the differences between the EF-M and RF are very apparent to even the most basic of consumers. Why muddy the waters with an RF-S series of bodies and lenses when I'd think, in this shrinking camera market, R&D is best focused on the actual RF line and possibly a couple more complimentary EF-M lenses to keep people like me happy with our $1,000 bodies.



Exactly, i don't see Canon doing a 5th mount...4 is more than enough to maintain. Maybe a high-end APS-C with RF mount without APS-C lenses, but that does not make much sense.


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## melgross (Jul 24, 2019)

These are very popular cameras. I don’t know why Canon would discontinue the line. APS-C cameras with the “R” mount would have more, and likely, better lenses. But they would be bigger and heavier and more expensive.

i can’t believe that when Canon was designing these cameras, they didn’t know that they would be doing full frame later. They had to. Yet, they still came out with these. They must have discussed this in some detail before doing this. It’s a decision that costs, and makes, hundreds of millions, and possibly, billions of dollars.

the fact that they’re still coming out with new and upgraded lenses and bodies, makes me think that they are going to stick with what is one of the most popular mirrorless lines.


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## Stephenmreyes (Jul 24, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> If they do I will just shoot 25p and not give a damn. Every single video capable Canon camera can shoot 25p.


On a 23.976, 24, or 25 timeline?


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## privatebydesign (Jul 24, 2019)

Stephenmreyes said:


> On a 23.976, 24, or 25 timeline?


In my experience which I admit is not particularly broad, with the editing programs I have used, FCPX, LumaFusion, iMovie, it really doesn't matter. It seems you can put practically anything in and get practically anything out and I don't see impacts in quality and I have yet to see a demonstration that does. 

I'd happily have somebody point me to an authoritative and peer supported example where IQ is impacted to a noticeable degree by doing so. I'd also like to see the same for anything that demonstrated a visible difference between a 23.976, 25 or a 24 timeline.


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## melgross (Jul 24, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> In my experience which I admit is not particularly broad, with the editing programs I have used, FCPX, LumaFusion, iMovie, it really doesn't matter. It seems you can put practically anything in and get practically anything out and I don't see impacts in quality and I have yet to see a demonstration that does.
> 
> I'd happily have somebody point me to an authoritative and peer supported example where IQ is impacted to a noticeable degree by doing so. I'd also like to see the same for anything that demonstrated a visible difference between a 23.976, 25 or a 24 timeline.


Quite frankly, it’s exaggerated when it comes to video. My company had, as one service, a still frame print from 70mm film, for motion picture companies. When they sold 8x10’s from their films to fans, they would pick a still from the film in a number of places, and our 70mm camera would make a 4x5 transparency or negative, and make hundreds of prints for them to take to openings or, usually, fan fests.

Some people would ask me why they didn’t print from the still photos taken while the film was being made. Simple. Fans want the EXACT image they saw in the film at that exact moment. A still isn’t good enough, because it’s not from the camera that took the movie. So, it’s not the ”real” picture.

ok, so why bring this up? Because our visual cortex doesn’t see motion the way it sees a still. While watching that movie, everything looks more than sharp enough. We don’t really see the grain, and small defects aren’t noticed. But when we print a still, it’s different. Suddenly, it’s soft, there may be scratches we need to fix, the grain is prominent.

so, yes, some of the things complained about, such as not using the full frame for video isn’t really as noticeable as some think it is. Yeah, if someone is staring at the screen, looking for it, likely, if the monitor is good enough, you might see it. But if you’re not sitting close enough, you won’t.


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## BillB (Jul 24, 2019)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Exactly, i don't see Canon doing a 5th mount...4 is more than enough to maintain. Maybe a high-end APS-C with RF mount without APS-C lenses, but that does not make much sense.


Well, you can adapt EF-S lenses to an RF mount with an afs-c sensor if you want. An RF mount camera with an afs-c sensor might fill the 7DII niche, while serving as a testbed for Canon's high end mirrorless AF, and getting reach with less size weight and cost than FF.


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## Stephenmreyes (Jul 24, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> In my experience which I admit is not particularly broad, with the editing programs I have used, FCPX, LumaFusion, iMovie, it really doesn't matter. It seems you can put practically anything in and get practically anything out and I don't see impacts in quality and I have yet to see a demonstration that does.
> 
> I'd happily have somebody point me to an authoritative and peer supported example where IQ is impacted to a noticeable degree by doing so. I'd also like to see the same for anything that demonstrated a visible difference between a 23.976, 25 or a 24 timeline.


I know potato jet did something with the rp. I gotta find it.


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## Stephenmreyes (Jul 24, 2019)

padam said:


> But 4k still remains 24fps only, they only remove it from 1080p.
> 
> That being said, it is probably a flagship mirrorless APS-C model with a new sensor, so they will probably bring them back, and the price will be higher than what people expect.


But will they remove dpaf like they have in the past? From 4K 24


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## Don Haines (Jul 24, 2019)

mpb001 said:


> With the ever cheaper FF mirrorless cameras continually evolving, I’m really not sure of the point of the M series anymore. I guess Canon knows there must be a market for it, but with the market being over saturated, I just don’t see the point in making it anymore.


It is small


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## privatebydesign (Jul 24, 2019)

Stephenmreyes said:


> I know potato jet did something with the rp. I gotta find it.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 24, 2019)

I can't imagine why anyone would prefer an M over one of FujiFIlm's little "pocket rockets" but they do. Just another one of life's mysteries I suppose.


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## Andy Westwood (Jul 24, 2019)

I enjoy using my M5 it makes an excellent backup camera for me as it takes up very little room in my camera bag. I still shoot video for web use with it and paired with the EF-M 22mm f2 it makes a viable lightweight option.

I recently went on holiday to Norway and rattled off several hundred shots with my M5 and I’d forgotten how much I loved using it. I would be interested in the MKII; however, I think I will wait for the price to settle first. I was so keen to get an M5 when it was first announced I pre ordered it only to see it soon drop in price considerably once pre orders were fulfilled.


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## Stephenmreyes (Jul 24, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> It is small


Exactly!


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## Stephenmreyes (Jul 24, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


>


That’s the one! Did you see a difference?


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## jayphotoworks (Jul 24, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> In my experience which I admit is not particularly broad, with the editing programs I have used, FCPX, LumaFusion, iMovie, it really doesn't matter. It seems you can put practically anything in and get practically anything out and I don't see impacts in quality and I have yet to see a demonstration that does.
> 
> I'd happily have somebody point me to an authoritative and peer supported example where IQ is impacted to a noticeable degree by doing so. I'd also like to see the same for anything that demonstrated a visible difference between a 23.976, 25 or a 24 timeline.



I have to chime in here. For starters, I have no idea why Canon would remove 24p in 1080. You have to actually change the video system back and forth in the menus to toggle between NTSC/PAL. If you are in PAL, you only get 25p in 4K as well. You have to switch it back to NTSC for 24p... It's a major inconvenience.

But aside from that, I mainly shoot in North America w/ 60HZ lighting. I'm more or less free to use any shutter angle while working in 24P. When forced to shoot in 25P, I now have to be selective with my shutter angles, or I will run into a ton of trouble with moving bands in my shot, especially with fluorescent lighting. Likewise in Euro/Asia, a person can shoot 25P with pretty much any shutter angle since the lighting there is 50HZ, but when shooting 24p, there are the same restrictions in shutter angles to avoid flicker. So while most people won't notice a significant difference dropping a 25p shot in a 24p timeline since Adobe will automatically conform them for you, if they are shooting in North America, they WILL notice the moving vertical bands in the shot and will spend hours working with plugins trying to rectify the issue all because they had to shoot in 25P.






Flicker Free







www.red.com





Here is a calculator offering safe shutter angles depending on the region.


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## canonical (Jul 24, 2019)

i don't believe they'll update both 2 cameras M5 and M6 to mark II. if they go pop-up EVF (plus hotshoe!), one well-specced, yet still very compact M5 II with slightly bigger grip for LP-E6N power pack and without bulky ugly central hump will kill both birds with 1 stone. no need for a m6 II. "no evf camera" will only survive at entry level: M100 II or whatever its going to be called.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 24, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> I have to chime in here. For starters, I have no idea why Canon would remove 24p in 1080. You have to actually change the video system back and forth in the menus to toggle between NTSC/PAL. If you are in PAL, you only get 25p in 4K as well. You have to switch it back to NTSC for 24p... It's a major inconvenience.
> 
> But aside from that, I mainly shoot in North America w/ 60HZ lighting. I'm more or less free to use any shutter angle while working in 24P. When forced to shoot in 25P, I now have to be selective with my shutter angles, or I will run into a ton of trouble with moving bands in my shot, especially with fluorescent lighting. Likewise in Euro/Asia, a person can shoot 25P with pretty much any shutter angle since the lighting there is 50HZ, but when shooting 24p, there are the same restrictions in shutter angles to avoid flicker. So while most people won't notice a significant difference dropping a 25p shot in a 24p timeline since Adobe will automatically conform them for you, if they are shooting in North America, they WILL notice the moving vertical bands in the shot and will spend hours working with plugins trying to rectify the issue all because they had to shoot in 25P.
> 
> ...


I am not being a Canon apologist, not for one second. I am trying to be a realist and point out the desperate hand wringing over _'the issue'_ is largely overblown and grossly exaggerated.

Of course it should be included, but it isn't and for most people most of the time it genuinely makes no difference.


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## Andy Westwood (Jul 24, 2019)

It will be interesting to see how much Canon price the new Canon EOS M5 MKII at. I paid a whooping £1049 for my MKI only to see it selling in the UK now for just £599.

Given the EOS M50 is also just £489 or even £429 with current Canon cash back offer and the new full frame RP is £1399 I can’t see Canon pitching the new M5 MKII any more than £750 unless it has some very special new features or a big bump in spec.


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## jeffa4444 (Jul 24, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I don't see that as likely. Given the size weight and quality of the RF lenses to date I think Canon's intent is to make the R line a high quality higher cost ff system, I'd expect them to leave APS-C to the M and the generally low cost slower zooms much better suited to a more general audience and market.
> 
> The lines between the EF and EF-s market became very grey, at this point the differences between the EF-M and RF are very apparent to even the most basic of consumers. Why muddy the waters with an RF-S series of bodies and lenses when I'd think, in this shrinking camera market, R&D is best focused on the actual RF line and possibly a couple more complimentary EF-M lenses to keep people like me happy with our $1,000 bodies.


I kinda agree that the EF-S has become redundant. The RP entry price is quite low and all the RF lenses so far are superior to their EF counter-parts. Better that Canon concentrates on the M lenses and upscales the high end cameras to give a successor to the 7D MKII. Still if the rumours are true about an upcoming 90D were soon find out whether it prolongs the EF-S or jumps to RF. With the EOS R and RP both able to have an APS-C crop mode and the continued introductions into the M line up I think Canon R&D bucks will need to compromise somewhere.


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## Ricardo_fon (Jul 24, 2019)

I love my M5. If they release a mkii I won't upgrade, but I'll feel better about buying more lenses. I'd really like that 32, but don't wanna be bitten by them cancelling the system like Nikon did with their 1 system. Still sore about that.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 24, 2019)

jeffa4444 said:


> I kinda agree that the EF-S has become redundant. The RP entry price is quite low and all the RF lenses so far are superior to their EF counter-parts. Better that Canon concentrates on the M lenses and upscales the high end cameras to give a successor to the 7D MKII. Still if the rumours are true about an upcoming 90D were soon find out whether it prolongs the EF-S or jumps to RF. With the EOS R and RP both able to have an APS-C crop mode and the continued introductions into the M line up I think Canon R&D bucks will need to compromise somewhere.


As a pure thought experiment where is Canon most likely to go with their stills camera lineups?

1: EF-s is a dead end, it will get the 90D and maybe a Rebel T8. You can still buy T5's new so even when they stop manufacture they will have several years of stock.
2: EF is at the end of it's high R&D costs. The 1DX MkIII is basically done in terms of R&D and the 5D MkV will be close too. After that I just don't see any more EF DSLR's, who'd buy a 6D III when they can have an RP or discounted R?
3: EF-M is a high volume but irregular regional money maker, but the specific market, in general, are not exotic lens buyers so little extra lens development is needed to keep the customer base happy. Niche lenses like the 32mm f1.4 and the 28mm f3.5 Macro keep many extras happy too.
4: RF is taking up nearly all the ILC R&D budget with a range of cameras and lenses laid out in a roadmap we would all love to be privy too. RF is the future for Canon.


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## Act444 (Jul 24, 2019)

michi said:


> I'm currently selling my M6. The one thing that drives me insane is the slow CPU. Switching between some functions, especially between image review and back is painfully slow. As is AF still. I've lost too many images waiting for the camera and it's not like I am a sports or action photographer. I'm over it. Somehow I don't have faith that the Mark II will fix things. I would be happy to be surprised though as I am keeping my lenses for now, just in case.



I actually like my M6. It performs decently in the situations that I use it for, mainly as the "alternate" camera. It + the 18-150 squeezes into a mini-bag, making it incredibly handy at times. I will somewhat agree about the delay in image review, but I suppose I'm used to it by now, especially after having used the original M and the M10. The M6 is a beast compared to those two cameras...

If speed and responsiveness are critical, I'll use the 5D instead.


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## EverydayPhotographer (Jul 24, 2019)

Hector1970 said:


> _Hmm Project _Nacho. Sounds tasty
> Slim maybe.
> Well Canon are still investing in the M Series. It’s a series that seemed a dead end to me but must be doing well enough for Canon to give it more support with new cameras.
> It’s small and compact and well loved by users.



It’s still frustrating. If these two bodies are released, it furthers a disparity in the M series - they have released 9 M series bodies, but only 7 EF-M lenses. I’d love to see that “support” include additional lenses to fill in some gaps in the system.


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## TonyPM (Jul 24, 2019)

Would be nice to se an EosM camera with the shape and size of the RP. And would be awesome if it had ibis and weather sealing too. With that new 32mp sensor.

I would go head first for it.

One question though: Would my trusty Tamron 17-50 2.8 work on it with the ef to Ef-M adapter?


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## Mr Majestyk (Jul 24, 2019)

FramerMCB said:


> Yes! This. And I'm quite sure that Sigma would not be taking this step without very good info/assurances (maybe insider, or some tacit private agreement) that Canon would continue to develop and release M-series bodies.



That's exactly how I see it. Now it may not have been much work given the EF-M is what 18mm flange distance anyway, to adapt the FE versions, but still I doubt they waste their time if they sawEF-M as an evolutionary dead end. Still curious how Canon will move forward with APS-C EOS R though.


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## Mr Majestyk (Jul 24, 2019)

TonyPM said:


> Would be nice to se an EosM camera with the shape and size of the RP. And would be awesome if it had ibis and weather sealing too. With that new 32mp sensor.
> 
> I would go head first for it.
> 
> One question though: Would my trusty Tamron 17-50 2.8 work on it with the ef to Ef-M adapter?


Surely that would just be the APS-C version of EOS RP, with RF mount not M mount.


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## BillB (Jul 24, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> As a pure thought experiment where is Canon most likely to go with their stills camera lineups?
> 
> 1: EF-s is a dead end, it will get the 90D and maybe a Rebel T8. You can still buy T5's new so even when they stop manufacture they will have several years of stock.
> 2: EF is at the end of it's high R&D costs. The 1DX MkIII is basically done in terms of R&D and the 5D MkV will be close too. After that I just don't see any more EF DSLR's, who'd buy a 6D III when they can have an RP or discounted R?
> ...


Canon will likely keep producing EF-s and EF cameras and lenses as long as people keep buying them in enough volume to be attractive. At this point, Canon is being pretty much handed the DSLR market except for Nikon's high end cameras FF cameras. We may not be talking very much about EF cameras and lenses on Canon Rumors though.


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## stevelee (Jul 25, 2019)

melgross said:


> ok, so why bring this up? Because our visual cortex doesn’t see motion the way it sees a still. While watching that movie, everything looks more than sharp enough. We don’t really see the grain, and small defects aren’t noticed. But when we print a still, it’s different. Suddenly, it’s soft, there may be scratches we need to fix, the grain is prominent.



A neighbor has a home in the mountains, and he shot some video at a ski resort. He had a shot where he had panned from left to right. He asked me whether I could make him a mural off of it. He wanted to frame it and put it on a wall in his house up there. I told him I'd give it a shot.

I took the clip into Photoshop and had it to extract every frame. Then I looked through some of the fames and came up with several sequences that each showed overlaps of about 1/3 and had Photoshop to stitch each set into panoramas. I picked out the one I thought looked best and edited it a bit and printed on 13" roll paper. The results are really good. I was quite surprised at how well that worked. I figured that in theory it would look softer at the very best.


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## HarryFilm (Jul 25, 2019)

The M5/M6 exist SOLELY for the reason that Smartphones DO NOT HAVE (i.e. NOT TODAY! But coming soon!) the requisite image quality and perception of depth that a larger sensor has.

These photos I took below were taken with a smartphone AND a cheap point-and-shoot! From afar and if you don't pixel-peep too much they are QUITE ACCEPTABLE for online/website display. For print? NO! It takes quite a bit of work to get them to output at a decent quality BUT again for web they are fine! This means FOR NOW, that the upcoming M5/M6 replacements will be viewed by MANY camera enthusiasts as viable GIFTS for family (i.e. high school or college kids!) and for use in many work-related or personal stills/video applications BECAUSE people will be taking photos SIMILAR to mine who do not need fancy gear! Truly portable and lightweight gear is what they really want!

I predict the NEW M5/M6 will sell quite well for about one to two years UNTIL people start realizing that newer smartphones with LARGER image sensors are now available as a COMBINED high-resolution stills/video camera AND super-smartphone.

ONLY THAT type of device will finally KILL OFF the Powershot-series, the M50, M100, M5/M6 and even the 7D/6D series of Canon cameras!

---

A lot of moms, dads, grandparents and teens will be buying the NEW M5/M6 because they only need to photograph that which is similar to these below photos.


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## PGSanta (Jul 25, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> I wondered about the authenticity of the ‘code name’, but maybe nachos are a thing in Japan. They have nacho-flavored Pringles!



I was in Tokyo last November and was shocked at just how many Mexican restaurants had popped up. 

Yes. I tried one. They didn’t have guacamole quiet right, but nachos were on the menu.


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## amorse (Jul 25, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I am not being a Canon apologist, not for one second. I am trying to be a realist and point out the desperate hand wringing over _'the issue'_ is largely overblown and grossly exaggerated.
> 
> Of course it should be included, but it isn't and for most people most of the time it genuinely makes no difference.


I'm no cinematographer, and I don't have a lot of issues with Canon's camera equipment, but the absence of 24 fps in the RP did strike me as a bit concerning considering the limitations it could cause for flickering and my (maybe misguided?) perception that adding 24 fps shouldn't come with any further technical limitations already in place with 30 fps. Why leave it out if there is no technical barrier or added cost to add it in (again, I'm assuming there isn't a technical limitation)? I've always been of the opinion that Canon seems to leave things out because those things aren't technically possible for Canon at the moment without notable compromises, or it is possible but would drive the price of the camera up considerably. I've never bought into the idea that Canon intentionally held back features to protect one line over another, and that's why the 24p issue rubbed me the wrong way - I had no idea why it wasn't included.

I won't suggest that the issue isn't overblown (it is definitely overblown), but in the context of what is good enough for most people most of the time, one could just as easily argue that a cell phone camera that produces 4k footage is *more* than good enough for most people most of the time - overkill even. We could even go not quite as far and say full frame video is overkill too - "just get an APS-C camera with 1080/24p if it's so important". But for those willing to invest in a full frame camera and full frame glass *for* video, I think it is safe to assume that those people are more likely to want some level of specific control over the way their video footage looks that they can't get elsewhere (hence their investment), and good enough for most people may not be good enough for them. I completely understand why the issue came up - the RP is so close to being a perfect solution for people who want full frame video at a low price, but omitting 24p in 1080, yet giving you 24p in 4k makes no reasonable sense.


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## Ricardo_fon (Jul 25, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> The M5/M6 exist SOLELY for the reason that Smartphones DO NOT HAVE (i.e. NOT TODAY! But coming soon!) the requisite image quality and perception of depth that a larger sensor has.



I don't know about this Harry. The benefits of the camera are more than just image quality. I own an M5, my wife an M6. I was shooting Fuji before but it's easier to share a system.

This works because I'm not a pro photographer, but as a graphic designer the camera offers me a few things I need. I spend a lot of time doing street photography. So the 22mm, small size and control dials are important. 

I also get a few jobs a year where I need to do product shots in a make shift studio. So hot shoe for controlling strobes and availability of lenses is important. One little camera can do alot of work for me.

My wife chose the M6 because of availability of control dials, hot shoe and proper tripod mount. She likes doing still lifes and landscapes.

I'm glad we went Canon because of 2nd hand lens availability and lens rental availability for when I need it. Something that's a struggle with Fuji. Even if a phone had an apsc sensor in it, it wouldn't be useful to me. At the same time I have no need or want for a FF system. As long as my M5 works I'll keep using it. But I really want canon to continue supporting the system.


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## Michael Clark (Jul 25, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> I wondered about the authenticity of the ‘code name’, but maybe nachos are a thing in Japan. They have nacho-flavored Pringles!



What kind of Pringles don't belong to you?

Nah-cho Pringles!


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## Ricardo_fon (Jul 25, 2019)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would prefer an M over one of FujiFIlm's little "pocket rockets" but they do. Just another one of life's mysteries I suppose.


I was with Fuji before. Lenses are more affordable on Canons side (not apples with apples, but I couldn't afford the Fuji glass I wanted). Also more variety of lenses available to rent which I can adapt when needed. The only thing I miss from my xpro is build quality and that the camera is actually able go into sleep mode while you carry it.


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## Jack Jian (Jul 25, 2019)

amorse said:


> I'm no cinematographer, and I don't have a lot of issues with Canon's camera equipment, but the absence of 24 fps in the RP did strike me as a bit concerning considering the limitations it could cause for flickering and my (maybe misguided?) perception that adding 24 fps shouldn't come with any further technical limitations already in place with 30 fps. Why leave it out if there is no technical barrier or added cost to add it in (again, I'm assuming there isn't a technical limitation)? I've always been of the opinion that Canon seems to leave things out because those things aren't technically possible for Canon at the moment without notable compromises, or it is possible but would drive the price of the camera up considerably. I've never bought into the idea that Canon intentionally held back features to protect one line over another, and that's why the 24p issue rubbed me the wrong way - I had no idea why it wasn't included.
> 
> I won't suggest that the issue isn't overblown (it is definitely overblown), but in the context of what is good enough for most people most of the time, one could just as easily argue that a cell phone camera that produces 4k footage is *more* than good enough for most people most of the time - overkill even. We could even go not quite as far and say full frame video is overkill too - "just get an APS-C camera with 1080/24p if it's so important". But for those willing to invest in a full frame camera and full frame glass *for* video, I think it is safe to assume that those people are more likely to want some level of specific control over the way their video footage looks that they can't get elsewhere (hence their investment), and good enough for most people may not be good enough for them. I completely understand why the issue came up - the RP is so close to being a perfect solution for people who want full frame video at a low price, but omitting 24p in 1080, yet giving you 24p in 4k makes no reasonable sense.



Seems you lose the concept of segmentation (Canon has the largest segmentation - xxxxD, xxxD, xxD, xD, M6, M5, R series:

1. RP is an entry level FF, targeted at FF beginners or vlogers or whatever at that level. 30fps is excellent and shows no difference to people viewing it: smartphone / Laptop / PC screen. None of major chunk of target population will even know what's 24fps, so it's fine. Do I want it, absolutely, but I understand market segmentation, and lack of 24fps is not at all an issue. Shooting at the right shutter (1/60 or 50) and reducing in PP also simulates 24fps look very well (doesn't affect lip sync when mixing as online"experts" claims. reducing the shutter a little bit also removes flickering, which not destroying the look. Whatever it is - Market Segmentation, and target users and their audience!

2. "...But for those willing to invest in a full frame camera and full frame glass *for* video,.." - Again, segmentation, "those" have already many other option and RP is not one of them, if they absolutely need "24fps" in 1080p.

3. 24p in 4k - could be sensor limitation preventing it to add 6 more frames per second - with that bad rolling shutter + lower buffer.


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## mb66energy (Jul 25, 2019)

O.k., I will wait another 6 weeks or so until I buy a 2nd M50 ... or a M5 mk ii! On my last journey I had a M50 and M + EF-M 32 and EF 70 200 4.0 IS mark i with adapter with me: A great combo but it is much better to have TWO IDENTICAL bodies or at least two similar bodies - M50 and M are not similar except maybe in IQ if you have lots of light and enough time for AF and a simple subject.

Hopefully the anticipated M5 mark ii is at least similar to the M50 in terms of basic operation. Looking forward to that camera. And hopefully the microphone input/sound recording for movies is (1) low noise and (2) Linear PCM. The audio files from the TASCAM DR-70 with a matched stereo pair from RODE (M5) on its SD card are very good - if I feed the sound into the M50 microphone input the sound quality is mediocre: I would like to skip the synchronization in postprocess!


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## canonical (Jul 25, 2019)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would prefer an M over one of FujiFIlm's little "pocket rockets" but they do. Just another one of life's mysteries I suppose.



simple. price : value. Fuji charges about 80% of FF price for half-frame gear, cameras and lenses. EOS M delivers same IQ with less bulk and at considerably lower cost. Especially M50 is a price-value winner. And it beats Fuji x-t100 hands-down. Same with EF-M lenses. Fuji X lenses are more expensive and bulkier yet none of them beats IQ of EF-M 22/2.0, 28/3.5, 32/1.4 or 11-22. and the dirt-cheap EF-M 55-200 may be regarded low even by some CR forum dwellers, but it is a hell of a lot better than its sorry Fuji competitor XC 55-230/6.7 at twice the price. lol

little bang for the buck is what limits fuji to less than 10% market share. most potential customers obviously know aperture rings and hipster-appeal are not needed to create great images.


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## jolyonralph (Jul 25, 2019)

BillB said:


> It will be interesting to see how many Sigma EF-M primes get bought. They do complement slow zooms very nicely. Between Canon and Sigma, there will be a fair number of zooms to choose from.



Hope Sigma have better luck at decoding the EF-M format than Tamron did. They gave up with EF-M mount after their disastrous 18-200 EF-M lens which continually needed firmware upgrades to allow it to keep working. Bet you anything the Tamron 18-200 won't work on the new EOS M cameras.


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## HarryFilm (Jul 25, 2019)

Ricardo_fon said:


> I don't know about this Harry. The benefits of the camera are more than just image quality. I own an M5, my wife an M6. I was shooting Fuji before but it's easier to share a system.
> 
> This works because I'm not a pro photographer, but as a graphic designer the camera offers me a few things I need. I spend a lot of time doing street photography. So the 22mm, small size and control dials are important.
> 
> ...




---

YOU are the PRIME MARKET for the M5/M6 replacements as they are small, lightweight, will take more-than-decent photos and you probably DO NOT want to spend big bucks on a 7D-series or higher! Again, the M5/M6 will sell very well to people just like you and your wife!

NOW.... the fly-in-the-ointment will become VERY apparent once large sensor (i.e. 2/3rds inch and APS-C) super-smartphones come out that have POWERFUL CPU processors (i.e. Qualcomm Snapdragon 855 and better!) that can do a LOT of on-board Pixel-3 or Huaweii P30 like photo processing and computational photography tasks what will MAKE your photos conform-to and/or actually become professional level with a minimum of fuss!

Once that happens ALL manufacturers (Canon included!) ABSOLUTELY WILL need to change their product lineup and pricing schemes in order to compete with products that will BLEED over 90% of their point-n-shoot or mid-range camera business away from their bottom lines. While I do have SOME VERY SPECIFIC INSIDER KNOWLEDGE of what is coming out very soon now in terms of large-sensor smartphones, I am STILL confused as to what Canon is thinking about doing business-wise to counteract devices that are BOTH very portable pro-level cameras AND portable personal supercomputers!

.
We live in VERY interesting times and while the M5/M6 replacements are more-than-decent in their own right, they are merely unstable footholds for staying with old technology rather than a means to march into the future!

IT'S COMING !!!! The merging of computational photography, large low-noise image sensors AND supercomputer-level smartphones WILL BE A REALITY VERY SOON !!! So WHAT is Canon going to DO ABOUT THAT ABSOLUTE FACT ??? !!!

.


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## Isaacheus (Jul 25, 2019)

Jack Jian said:


> Seems you lose the concept of segmentation (Canon has the largest segmentation - xxxxD, xxxD, xxD, xD, M6, M5, R series:
> 
> 1. RP is an entry level FF, targeted at FF beginners or vlogers or whatever at that level. 30fps is excellent and shows no difference to people viewing it: smartphone / Laptop / PC screen. None of major chunk of target population will even know what's 24fps, so it's fine. Do I want it, absolutely, but I understand market segmentation, and lack of 24fps is not at all an issue. Shooting at the right shutter (1/60 or 50) and reducing in PP also simulates 24fps look very well (doesn't affect lip sync when mixing as online"experts" claims. reducing the shutter a little bit also removes flickering, which not destroying the look. Whatever it is - Market Segmentation, and target users and their audience!
> 
> ...



I understand what your getting at with segmentation, but it still is a strange choice overall - removing an option that older cameras have, and which wouldn't appear to cost any extra, just seems like omitting something because they can. 

If they were looking for meaningful segmentation, wouldn't adding a higher fps option for the higher cameras be far better? Ie 120 at 1080 on the r, but leave it out of the rp. 

It feels a bit like if Canon decided to leave out m-raw on the next 5dsr release, but kept s-raw. Not something that will affect everyone that uses it, but it'd feel Canon were removing something for the sake of it


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## TonyPM (Jul 25, 2019)

Mr Majestyk said:


> Surely that would just be the APS-C version of EOS RP, with RF mount not M mount.


I didn't say it would have the same specs. Just the same body size and shape with an M mount on it. Hopefully it would have specs that would make it worth buying. 

As I said, ibis and specially weather sealing are a must at that price point.


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## amorse (Jul 25, 2019)

Jack Jian said:


> Seems you lose the concept of segmentation (Canon has the largest segmentation - xxxxD, xxxD, xxD, xD, M6, M5, R series:
> 
> 1. RP is an entry level FF, targeted at FF beginners or vlogers or whatever at that level. 30fps is excellent and shows no difference to people viewing it: smartphone / Laptop / PC screen. None of major chunk of target population will even know what's 24fps, so it's fine. Do I want it, absolutely, but I understand market segmentation, and lack of 24fps is not at all an issue. Shooting at the right shutter (1/60 or 50) and reducing in PP also simulates 24fps look very well (doesn't affect lip sync when mixing as online"experts" claims. reducing the shutter a little bit also removes flickering, which not destroying the look. Whatever it is - Market Segmentation, and target users and their audience!
> 
> ...


I don't think I've lost the concept of segmentation at all. In fact, I'm well aware of Canon's segmentation in their lineup and don't disagree with it. I do believe that getting more advanced features is worth more money and have no issue with that. But suggesting that the 23.976 frame rate aka 24p was removed as a way to segment the rp from it's competitors in Canon's stable is seems like purposefully removing a standard feature. Here's a few of Canon's other cameras that can do 24p at 1080: SL2, t7, t7i, 80d, 77d, 70d, 7D, 7Dii, 6D, 6Dii, 5Dii, 5Diii, 5Div, EOS R, etc. Even the 4000D, Canon's cheapest DSLR, can do 24p at 1080. Based on that list I'm confident that Canon has even more cameras that can do it, I'm just tired of verifying each camera one at a time. I really have a hard time thinking than Canon is using the lack of 1080/24 on the RP as a way to protect all those other cameras. Having this seetting as an option on what seems to be every other DSLR or mirrorless they make (below or above the RP in Canon's segmentation) indicates that it should be considered a standard feature. 

My point is that most of Canon's segmentation is based on adding hardware (which adds cost), or new tech (which is unavailable at lower segmented camera bodies). This is neither - it's removal of a standard feature which removes no cost, and is available in ever other ILC Canon makes. 

Further, video isn't something I worry about a lot as I'm really just a stills photographer. My issue here is that removal of 24 at 1080 is out of character for Canon as there is no reasonable excuse for doing so. I think we can explain away other missing features from any camera Canon makes with good sense: i.e. 4k uncropped on full frame was not feasible with proper heat management and weather sealing, or adding a second card slot to the R would add cost - those things make sense. Omission of 24p at 1080 does not make sense.


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## mustafa (Jul 25, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> YOU are the PRIME MARKET for the M5/M6 replacements as they are small, lightweight, will take more-than-decent photos and you probably DO NOT want to spend big bucks on a 7D-series or higher! Again, the M5/M6 will sell very well to people just like you and your wife!
> 
> ...



Could you stop SHOUTING at us please Harry?


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## privatebydesign (Jul 25, 2019)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would prefer an M over one of FujiFIlm's little "pocket rockets" but they do. Just another one of life's mysteries I suppose.


System compatibility. I can carry an M and use the lenses I have with me as a backup. Flash system, I can use my extensive flash system with the M. If I want to use an exotic lens for some special purpose I already have it. For many users even batteries and chargers are interchangeable.

That kind of think is very difficult to put a value on but makes the experience of living with a system very different. When I transitioned to EOS from FD I was carrying two systems, I swore off ever doing that again!


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## Architect1776 (Jul 25, 2019)

amorse said:


> I'm no cinematographer, and I don't have a lot of issues with Canon's camera equipment, but the absence of 24 fps in the RP did strike me as a bit concerning considering the limitations it could cause for flickering and my (maybe misguided?) perception that adding 24 fps shouldn't come with any further technical limitations already in place with 30 fps. Why leave it out if there is no technical barrier or added cost to add it in (again, I'm assuming there isn't a technical limitation)? I've always been of the opinion that Canon seems to leave things out because those things aren't technically possible for Canon at the moment without notable compromises, or it is possible but would drive the price of the camera up considerably. I've never bought into the idea that Canon intentionally held back features to protect one line over another, and that's why the 24p issue rubbed me the wrong way - I had no idea why it wasn't included.
> 
> I won't suggest that the issue isn't overblown (it is definitely overblown), but in the context of what is good enough for most people most of the time, one could just as easily argue that a cell phone camera that produces 4k footage is *more* than good enough for most people most of the time - overkill even. We could even go not quite as far and say full frame video is overkill too - "just get an APS-C camera with 1080/24p if it's so important". But for those willing to invest in a full frame camera and full frame glass *for* video, I think it is safe to assume that those people are more likely to want some level of specific control over the way their video footage looks that they can't get elsewhere (hence their investment), and good enough for most people may not be good enough for them. I completely understand why the issue came up - the RP is so close to being a perfect solution for people who want full frame video at a low price, but omitting 24p in 1080, yet giving you 24p in 4k makes no reasonable sense.



Canon does make FF camera and FF glass for superb video.


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## H. Jones (Jul 25, 2019)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Maybe a high-end APS-C with RF mount without APS-C lenses, but that does not make much sense.



I think something that gets neglected in these conversations are the 1.3x APS-H sensor cameras. They were always full frame mount, but had smaller sensors. I don't think it's totally beyond the realm of possibility that Canon would release a 1.6x crop RF mount in the same vein as the 1.3x APS-H. 1.3x crop never made much sense to me as it wasn't that far off from full frame, which I think is why Canon got rid of it, but I could really see them making something 1.6x.

This is kinda a reach, but I'd also note the RF 15-35mm f/2.8L IS works out to a 24-56mm f/2.8L IS on a crop.. That's kinda a really sweet general use lens for a crop camera.


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## amorse (Jul 25, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> Canon does make FF camera and FF glass for superb video.


I'd agree with that - despite all the hate the R seems to get for 4k crop, everything I've read/watched has suggested that its 1080 is great by all accounts, especially if you use an external recorder.


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## cayenne (Jul 25, 2019)

padam said:


> But 4k still remains 24fps only, they only remove it from 1080p.
> 
> That being said, it is probably a flagship mirrorless APS-C model with a new sensor, so they will probably bring them back, and the price will be higher than what people expect.



Hm.......so, wouldn't the solution be to shoot 4K at 24fps and crop that down into 1080?

I thought that's what most folks with 4K capable cameras did these days when wanting to export to 1080?

cayenne


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## canonnews (Jul 25, 2019)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would prefer an M over one of FujiFIlm's little "pocket rockets" but they do. Just another one of life's mysteries I suppose.


The fuji's aren't pocket rockets by the time you add on lenses. the canon M lenses while slow, are small, light, optically good (most times), and inexpensive - and they also respond well to DLO which you get for free.


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## melgross (Jul 25, 2019)

Ricardo_fon said:


> I love my M5. If they release a mkii I won't upgrade, but I'll feel better about buying more lenses. I'd really like that 32, but don't wanna be bitten by them cancelling the system like Nikon did with their 1 system. Still sore about that.


The Nikon 1 was always a lame duck. I saw it when Nikon first introduced it. I was struck my the decidedly mediocre image quality, and somewhat clumsy handling. Apparently, a lot of people felt that way, and it never had particularly good sales.

The M series, on the other hand has been popular from the beginning, and has gained in popularity pretty much everywhere. Despite a number of writers, such as ThomHogan, saying that Canon needs an APS-C system with the same mount as the R series, I’m not so sure that’s true. With that mount, the camera will be larger, heavier, and likely more expensive.

The truth is that sizes smaller than full frame are shrinking (heh) in sales faster than full frame is—other than Canon’s M series, which is doing well, so why discontinue it? Possibly Canon might come out with an R mount APS-C, but this is a distinctive line with good sales, and I assume, at least a decent profitability. That’s rare these days.


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## melgross (Jul 25, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> YOU are the PRIME MARKET for the M5/M6 replacements as they are small, lightweight, will take more-than-decent photos and you probably DO NOT want to spend big bucks on a 7D-series or higher! Again, the M5/M6 will sell very well to people just like you and your wife!
> 
> ...



Well, you can ask what is any of these companies doing about the increasingly competent smartphone. I think that they can do very little. A smartphone is what it is because it’s a computerized communications device with built-in LTE which everyone expects to pay for every month. Nobody expects to have, and pay for, LTE in their stand alone camera. Apple’s industry leading SoC which powers it all is estimated, by Microprocessor Reports, to cost Apple between about $35 to $40 each. If they sold them to others, the price would be a lot higher, and they won’t. Top Android SoCs are cheaper, one reason why they don’t perform as well. But, even so, they’re much more powerful and general purpose than the chips built into cameras.

then you need RAM, NAND, and everything else to go with it. I can’t see that happening. A much bigger battery, more bulk, and a lot more money. It’s not in the cards.


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## BillB (Jul 25, 2019)

melgross said:


> The M series, on the other hand has been popular from the beginning, and has gained in popularity pretty much everywhere. Despite a number of writers, such as ThomHogan, saying that Canon needs an APS-C system with the same mount as the R series, I’m not so sure that’s true. With that mount, the camera will be larger, heavier, and likely more expensive.
> 
> The truth is that sizes smaller than full frame are shrinking (heh) in sales faster than full frame is—other than Canon’s M series, which is doing well, so why discontinue it? Possibly Canon might come out with an R mount APS-C, but this is a distinctive line with good sales, and I assume, at least a decent profitability. That’s rare these days.



If Canon wants to make an aps-c camera to fill the 7DII niche, it could make sense to use the new high end mirrorless AF system and put an RF mount on it, in order to use long RF glass. With an adapter it could even use EF-s lenses.


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## HarryFilm (Jul 26, 2019)

melgross said:


> Well, you can ask what is any of these companies doing about the increasingly competent smartphone. I think that they can do very little. A smartphone is what it is because it’s a computerized communications device with built-in LTE which everyone expects to pay for every month. Nobody expects to have, and pay for, LTE in their stand alone camera. Apple’s industry leading SoC which powers it all is estimated, by Microprocessor Reports, to cost Apple between about $35 to $40 each. If they sold them to others, the price would be a lot higher, and they won’t. Top Android SoCs are cheaper, one reason why they don’t perform as well. But, even so, they’re much more powerful and general purpose than the chips built into cameras.
> 
> then you need RAM, NAND, and everything else to go with it. I can’t see that happening. A much bigger battery, more bulk, and a lot more money. It’s not in the cards.



===

Yet I can buy a super high end Google Pixel-series phone for less than a $800 U.S. while a Canon M5 with a decent prime lens is about $950. The pixel-3 has a FAAAAAAAR more powerful CPU, MUCH better touch screen and much MORE IQ !!! The person I have direct contact for the 2/3rds inch and APS-C Super-Smartphones have specifically stated that their INITIAL bulk price for the 33 megapixel (DCI-8K 8192 x 4320 pixel) Bayer sensors that are fast enough for 60 fps AND ARE GLOBAL SHUTTER, are in the range of $130 US for the 2/3rd inch CMOS sensor and $200 US for APS-C version. They are video-centric 4:4:4 60 fps at up to 16 bits per channel with low-light high-sensitivity photosites and all initial DSP onboard. Those bulk wholesale prices are a tad expensive these days BUT for any other CMOS manufacturer you can actually DOUBLE that wholesale price!

I think you can GUESS who it is we are taking about, soooooooo it is the INCLUSION of the 10,000+ mAh battery to the new large-sensor super-smartphones which will will ALL the difference in terms of usability of such a high end imaging system. A Qualcomm Snapdragon 855 is EASILY ABLE to do full video processing and compression of DCI-8K (8192 x 4320 pixel) 60 fps RGBA 64-bit colour video and 60 fps burst-rate stills but until recently, BATTERY LIFE has always been the limiting factor!

So it is by merely thickening the phone to a still-acceptable level and adding a MUCH LARGER and LONGER LASTING BATTERY, users can have BOTH a personal super-computer AND a super-resolution mid-range APS-C camera for $1500 and less!

.

WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE ABOUT THAT ??? !!!

.


----------



## Jack Jian (Jul 26, 2019)

amorse said:


> I don't think I've lost the concept of segmentation at all. In fact, I'm well aware of Canon's segmentation in their lineup and don't disagree with it. I do believe that getting more advanced features is worth more money and have no issue with that. But suggesting that the 23.976 frame rate aka 24p was removed as a way to segment the rp from it's competitors in Canon's stable is seems like purposefully removing a standard feature. Here's a few of Canon's other cameras that can do 24p at 1080: SL2, t7, t7i, 80d, 77d, 70d, 7D, 7Dii, 6D, 6Dii, 5Dii, 5Diii, 5Div, EOS R, etc. Even the 4000D, Canon's cheapest DSLR, can do 24p at 1080. Based on that list I'm confident that Canon has even more cameras that can do it, I'm just tired of verifying each camera one at a time. I really have a hard time thinking than Canon is using the lack of 1080/24 on the RP as a way to protect all those other cameras. Having this seetting as an option on what seems to be every other DSLR or mirrorless they make (below or above the RP in Canon's segmentation) indicates that it should be considered a standard feature.
> 
> My point is that most of Canon's segmentation is based on adding hardware (which adds cost), or new tech (which is unavailable at lower segmented camera bodies). This is neither - it's removal of a standard feature which removes no cost, and is available in ever other ILC Canon makes.
> 
> Further, video isn't something I worry about a lot as I'm really just a stills photographer. My issue here is that removal of 24 at 1080 is out of character for Canon as there is no reasonable excuse for doing so. I think we can explain away other missing features from any camera Canon makes with good sense: i.e. 4k uncropped on full frame was not feasible with proper heat management and weather sealing, or adding a second card slot to the R would add cost - those things make sense. Omission of 24p at 1080 does not make sense.



Completely Agree with you that removing 24fps in 1080 doesn't make any "sense", from consumer's (enthusiast/Pro) point of view. But if you think "Business" and from Canon's marketing point of view, they are doing a hell of excellent job with this 'Segmentation' LOL

Also, I remember in one of their interview, (I think, not sure, with DPreview), a Canon Rep answering YES to a question: Will there be a more cheaper R FF body than the RP?
Just waiting on that to see what's more to be removed..haha...but I am fine as I am concerned with photography only and is okay with 6D level DR, 4fps with fully touch screen. All I need is the DPAF to avoid the PITA AFMA requirement for lenses in DSLR.


----------



## canonical (Jul 26, 2019)

Romain said:


> 90% of canon's users want a 90D, a 6d3 and a 5d5. What's wrong here??


your assumption is wrong. only few Canon customers want a 5D5 or 90D, hardly anyone wants a 6D3. 

vast majority wants compact, decent and affordable mirrorfree cameras like M50 II, M5/M6 II and a low-cost RP II (at $ 999), hi-rez RS-5 (2019) and action-oriented RX-1 (2020).

end of slapping mirrors is near.


----------



## Quirkz (Jul 26, 2019)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would prefer an M over one of FujiFIlm's little "pocket rockets" but they do. Just another one of life's mysteries I suppose.



Owning a Fuji x-e3, and until recently, having owned the m5, I can answer:

1. Price vs performance. The Fuji is great, The lens selection excellent, but expensive.
2. Canon colors. This is a personal preference, as I know some prefer the Fuji, but I much prefer the canon colors, and they also match the output of my 5d4 - no post processing when using both. I also find the greens just a little off on the Fuji.
3. I found the AF just a little more reliable on the M5 - more misses when using the Fuji that we’re only apparent later
4. Fuji lenses are, in general, quite a bit more portable than full frame, but not always (16-55, or 100-400 are surprising large, for example). The M5 lenses are all wonderfully light and compact compared to their Fuji counterparts apart from a few exceptions like the 18-55 & 28mm 2.8

So why did I keep the Fuji and sell the m5?
1. Honestly? GAS.we all like new toys.
2. Fuji lens lineup more extensive, and canon didn’t seem committed. (This has changed, especially with sigma now involved)
3. Most importantly, the Fuji+28mm pancake combo was pocketable, like my original eos m+22mm. The m5+22 was not.

Food for thought.- When I sold the m5, I kept my 22mm and 11-22 lens, selling only the 18-150 - I knew that it was inevitable I’d be back with an m series camera in the future, and these two lenses were favorites.

And since getting the RP, the Fuji didn’t come out of my bag once on my last trip. The RP is just that much better, and sacrifices just a little portability (can’t be squeezed in to a jacket pocket - which doesn’t happen in the summer anyway.)


----------



## mb66energy (Jul 26, 2019)

canonical said:


> your assumption is wrong. only few Canon customers want a 5D5 or 90D, hardly anyone wants a 6D3.
> 
> vast majority wants compact, decent and affordable mirrorfree cameras like M50 II, M5/M6 II and a low-cost RP II (at $ 999), hi-rez RS-5 (2019) and action-oriented RX-1 (2020).
> 
> end of slapping mirrors is near.



@Romain, @canonical:

While I always like the direct path of DSLRs more the advantages of mirrorless cameras are evitable: Really great AF reliability (while maybe not the highest AF speed with Canon), digital spirit systems implemented just in cheap cameras (it'2 a 2 $ sensor chip and maybe hundred lines of code), less mechanical parts, 100% viewfinder in the (more or less) cheapo M50, unprecedented speed (in low cost cameras) due to omitting the mirror, no eye damage if the sun is in the image (wanted or accidentally), etc.

The only downside I see is the high power consumption.

Now I am more than satisfied with the M50s IQ, flexibility, speed, small weight and size and I am really thinking of a 2nd one to have my two body - two lens setup:
M50 + EF-S 10-22 / M50 + EF-M 32
M50 + EF-M32 / M50 + 60/100 2.8 Macro
M50 + EF-M32 / M50 + 70-200 4.0 IS
with a 2nd adaptor
M50 + EF-S 10-22 / M50 + 60 2.8 Macro
Both bodies fit easily in a small photo backpack with room for more, e.g. an audio recorder with two microphones.


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## melgross (Jul 27, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ===
> 
> Yet I can buy a super high end Google Pixel-series phone for less than a $800 U.S. while a Canon M5 with a decent prime lens is about $950. The pixel-3 has a FAAAAAAAR more powerful CPU, MUCH better touch screen and much MORE IQ !!! The person I have direct contact for the 2/3rds inch and APS-C Super-Smartphones have specifically stated that their INITIAL bulk price for the 33 megapixel (DCI-8K 8192 x 4320 pixel) Bayer sensors that are fast enough for 60 fps AND ARE GLOBAL SHUTTER, are in the range of $130 US for the 2/3rd inch CMOS sensor and $200 US for APS-C version. They are video-centric 4:4:4 60 fps at up to 16 bits per channel with low-light high-sensitivity photosites and all initial DSP onboard. Those bulk wholesale prices are a tad expensive these days BUT for any other CMOS manufacturer you can actually DOUBLE that wholesale price!
> 
> ...


Well, most people would balk at thickening their phone by that much. Don’t believe it? Just understand that Motorola came out with a phone recently with a super large battery, and it went nowhere. People want thin phones, no matter how much they like to complain about a camera bump. They don’t want them to be heavier either. They will certainly never accept an APS-C type smartphone. That was tried years ago, and it also failed.

they (we) want a slim smartphone that, without giving up more than a mm, or so, of thickness, has better battery life, a small camera. module, that using advanced computational photography, gives much better results. They don’t want to spend $1500 to get it.


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## HarryFilm (Jul 28, 2019)

melgross said:


> Well, most people would balk at thickening their phone by that much. Don’t believe it? Just understand that Motorola came out with a phone recently with a super large battery, and it went nowhere. People want thin phones, no matter how much they like to complain about a camera bump. They don’t want them to be heavier either. They will certainly never accept an APS-C type smartphone. That was tried years ago, and it also failed.
> 
> they (we) want a slim smartphone that, without giving up more than a mm, or so, of thickness, has better battery life, a small camera. module, that using advanced computational photography, gives much better results. They don’t want to spend $1500 to get it.



===

Well then, the MARKET will have to decide! Red sold quite a few Hydrogen phones at $1500 and Huaweii is selling MILLIONS of the $1000+ versions of the P30 in various markets OTHER than the USA !!! So people WILL likely buy a thick and expensive phone if it is validly seen to be actually ABLE to replace two different items and combine them into one slick package.

And based what I have seen so far, I think the 2/3rd inch and APS-C supersmartphone have a legitimate ability to grab some decent market share even at their loft prices and thickness. 

In terms of the Motorola, you have to understand that the USA is NOW a pip-squeak market compared to China or Europe where teh Big Boys sell 10x the number of phones compared to just the USA! The super-thick Doogee S60 and S90 series or Blackview BV5800 rugged phones are ALSO SELLING IN THE MILLIONS in those markets! You just have NOT heard of them because they just have NOT arrived in the western markets.

To put it in perspective, the Doogee S60 by the end of just tonight will have sold 20,000 copies! It means people are WILLING to buy THICK rugged phones! Maybe not in the USA but certainly in the much larger and much MORE IMPORTANT China, Euro, South-Asia, India markets! That's nearly 15 MILLION thick rugged phones by the end of the year for just ONE model!

.


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## Ricardo_fon (Jul 28, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ===
> 
> Well then, the MARKET will have to decide! Red sold quite a few Hydrogen phones at $1500 and Huaweii is selling MILLIONS of the $1000+ versions of the P30 in various markets OTHER than the USA !!! So people WILL likely buy a thick and expensive phone if it is validly seen to be actually ABLE to replace two different items and combine them into one slick package.
> 
> ...


Phones have already killed the point and shoot. But I still don't think they're going to move into this sector that easily. There's more to it than just the end result. What about ergonomics, controls, lenses, speed of use, looking professional in front of clients and just enjoyment (which is why my film cameras still get used – a heart over head choice).

I hope you're wrong – but I'll also be looking out for the "I told you so". Remember the S4 Zoom?


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## HarryFilm (Jul 28, 2019)

Ricardo_fon said:


> Phones have already killed the point and shoot. But I still don't think they're going to move into this sector that easily. There's more to it than just the end result. What about ergonomics, controls, lenses, speed of use, looking professional in front of clients and just enjoyment (which is why my film cameras still get used – a heart over head choice).
> 
> I hope you're wrong – but I'll also be looking out for the "I told you so". Remember the S4 Zoom?



---

For large-sensor super-smartphones to TRULY kill point-n-shoot and even Canon 5D/6D/M5/M5/M50 cameras, it will HIGHLY DEPEND on the quality of the lens itself (i know the TWO smartphones have a 2x optical zoom so that's good!). It was actually an easy thing to do engineering-wise to get the 2/3rds inch and APS-C sensors themselves into the phones once they were made thicker and larger BUT I have some "Unknown Unknowns" regarding the lens elements themselves. 

All I know is they are fairly wide angle and use VERY depth-compact elements to get their quality because the face is TRULY FLAT AND FLUSH on the back of the large sensor smartphones. The large multimedia manufacturer did this because a durable plastic box containing a handgrip, a flush external lens mount, an external recording SSD tray and a large battery mount WILL be made available at the same time of introduction to give the super smartphones Black Magic pocket 4k functionality at a cheaper price! Software and IQ is a NON-ISSUE because both phones use a Qualcomm Snapdragon 855+ type of CPU chip which is MORE than powerful enough to do 60 fps DCI 8k video (8192x4320 pixels at Cinema 1:89:1 aspect ratio) and 50.3 megapixel (8192 x 6144 pixels) at full 4:3 aspect ratio 30 to 60 fps burst rates.

In terms of patents I have seen, there are fairly recent and noted compound curve lens elements that CAN be used to ensure proper focal plane focus in a phone that is as thin as 9 or 10 mm thick for a 2/3rd inch sensor AND as thin as 15mm thick for an APS-C sensor! That 15mm thickness is right on the optical limits for proper sensor focal plane focus and would require special Hyper-HAD style microlenses over each CMOS sensor photosite to achieve a 15mm or less thickness for an APS-C sized imaging chip! I am assuming that combining THAT sensor size and a DCI 4K screen (4096 x 2160) is probably WHY the both phones were filled-out with extra battery space! For 2/3rds inch, you need about 7000 mAh and APS-C REQUIRES a minimum of 10,000 mAh batteries to get normal all-day usage!

.
We shall see!
.


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## BillB (Jul 28, 2019)

Ricardo_fon said:


> Phones have already killed the point and shoot. But I still don't think they're going to move into this sector that easily. There's more to it than just the end result. What about ergonomics, controls, lenses, speed of use, looking professional in front of clients and just enjoyment (which is why my film cameras still get used – a heart over head choice).
> 
> I hope you're wrong – but I'll also be looking out for the "I told you so". Remember the S4 Zoom?


The availability of camera phones can affect replacement sales at all levels

At any level of camera specs a possibly substantial portion of camera buyers are buying more camera performance than they need. As phone cameras get better and better, these are the buyers that decide a phone is all they need (in addition to the camera they already have). This can affect upgrade sales at all levels. At higher spec levels, higher proportions of sales are upgrade sales. So the availability of camera phones can affect camera sales at higher levels of camera specs.

Possibly, an even more important factor in reducing the sales of higher level cameras may be that fewer and fewer are interested in printing prints on paper, and that too may affect sales at higher spec levels. 

Also, as camera specs get better, fewer people feel the need to replace the camera they already have, especially older people like me.


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## transpo1 (Jul 28, 2019)

If true, it's about time Canon implemented no crop 4K and high frame rates in slow motion. But will be worthless unless they also give people 24p and a decent codec.


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## melgross (Jul 29, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ===
> 
> Well then, the MARKET will have to decide! Red sold quite a few Hydrogen phones at $1500 and Huaweii is selling MILLIONS of the $1000+ versions of the P30 in various markets OTHER than the USA !!! So people WILL likely buy a thick and expensive phone if it is validly seen to be actually ABLE to replace two different items and combine them into one slick package.
> 
> ...


Really? How many of those crappy phones that were panned by everyone, with a terrible camera, and an even worse screen, did RED sell? Was it more than 1? More than a dozen?

is also like to see some actual evidence as to how well the P30 is selling, and where.

actually, you’re wrong on sales numbers as well. Chinese mostly buy low cost phones, and even with the problems caused by trade tensions and the arrest of the Huawei CFO, Apple still sells more high end phones there than anyone else.

you have some strange ideas, and some strange numbers. It’s not like,y the Doogee will sell even a million, possibly not even a half million—if that, and that’s stretching it.

also, would you please stop using caps so often, it’s really annoying?


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## HarryFilm (Jul 30, 2019)

melgross said:


> Really? How many of those crappy phones that were panned by everyone, with a terrible camera, and an even worse screen, did RED sell? Was it more than 1? More than a dozen?
> 
> is also like to see some actual evidence as to how well the P30 is selling, and where.
> 
> ...




---

My HK friend owns one of the Top-5 mobile phone Business-to-Business reseller chains in China and he is selling over 10,000 Doogee S60's and similar IP-67/IP-68 Rugged phones per day to various companies and group buys (he only sells wholesale lots at 10 phones minimum per order!) That's almost 4 million rugged phones per year!

The Huaweii P30 sold 10 million phones in less than 85 days!

Where the HELL are you getting your sales data from? The largest smart phone sales leaders in China are Huaweii, Oppo, Vivo, Xiaomi, and ONLY THEN is Apple at number 5!

Apple has NOWHERE NEAR the sales of high phones as Huweii or Xiaomi who are the LARGEST Flagship-level phone sales leaders!

You REALLY NEED TO PHYSICALLY goto China and SEE what is actually selling! And it DEFINITELY is NOT Apple as the high end phone sales leader! That belongs to Huawei and Xiaomi. Time to get your story straight cuz YOU are WAAAAAY OUT IN LEFT FIELD !!! I get my sales data straight from the horse's mouth IN CHINA! You are COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY WRONG in your assertions!!!!

.


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## HarryFilm (Jul 30, 2019)

melgross said:


> Well, most people would balk at thickening their phone by that much. Don’t believe it? Just understand that Motorola came out with a phone recently with a super large battery, and it went nowhere. People want thin phones, no matter how much they like to complain about a camera bump. They don’t want them to be heavier either. They will certainly never accept an APS-C type smartphone. That was tried years ago, and it also failed.
> 
> they (we) want a slim smartphone that, without giving up more than a mm, or so, of thickness, has better battery life, a small camera. module, that using advanced computational photography, gives much better results. They don’t want to spend $1500 to get it.



===

Again, the USA is a PIP-SQUEAK MARKET in terms of mobile sales! It no longer matters!

The TOP WORLDWIDE phone companies are in in the following order:

1) Huaweii

2) Samsung

3) Apple

4) Xiaomi

5) Oppo

In China itself Apple is only number 5 with Huawei taking the number one spot for flagship-level phones!

It is VERY COMMON to see 6.6 inch and larger phones in China! VERY few people like the small phones:









Top 10 Most Popular Smartphone Brands and Models in China (Summer 2018)


The ten most popular Chinese smartphone brands buzzing on social media.



www.whatsonweibo.com





NOBODY who is ANYBODY in China wants a dinky small phone! It's GO BIG OR GO HOME !!!!

In China, I see TONS of people with $20,000 US Vertus or $7000 Russian smartphones or the $2000 US Super-Flagships that aren't even IN the USA! You people HAVE UTTERLY NO CLUE what goes on in the rest of the world! If you use the Purchasing Power Metric where if you take 300 common household items and services and compare the AVERAGE Chinese and USA citizen's cost of the items in question and what percentage it takes out of the AVERAGE yearly income, China's economy is ALREADY the Number One in the world in terms of Consumer Purchasing Power.

Using U.S. Dollars and Purchase Power Equivalency, the U.S.'s GDP (Gross Domestic Product) is forecast in 2019 to be $21 Trillion Dollars! The Absolute GDP value for China is $14 Trillion U.S. BUT ... when converting for Purchase Power Equivalency irrespective of currency value translations, the ACTUAL GDP for China is like $35 Trillion U.S. There's people so rich in China it is PASSE to be buying an Apple iPhone X max when a $20,000 Vertu has TRUE Cachet!

AND the largest phone seller in China is an Honor near-flagship phone which is QUITE a bit ahead of what the US has!

The USA has more people in ABSOLUTE 2nd and 3rd World poverty than China does! The 700 Million people STILL in the Chinese Hinterlands cooking in concrete boxes with microwaves STILL HAVE GREATER equivalent purchasing power than MANY in the southeast and midwest USA. It is the USA that is now a 2nd and 3rd world impoverished nation with 52% of it's population in actual living paycheque-to-paycheque near poverty-level living conditions! These people in the USA CANNOT afford the Top-Selling Honor smartphone in China WHILE in China nearly everyone has something very similar to it!

NO! No! and Double No! The USA HAS NOWHERE NEAR the smartphone sales numbers of China!

Again, YOU PEOPLE REALLY NEED to actually GOTO China to see what is actually SELLING THERE and what people are actually using ON THE STREET --- It Ain't Apple Gear and They DO NOT LIKE USING SMALL smartphones in China !!!

.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 30, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> Again, YOU PEOPLE REALLY NEED to actually GOTO China to see what is actually SELLING THERE and what people are actually using ON THE STREET --- It Ain't Apple Gear and They DO NOT LIKE USING SMALL smartphones in China !!!



Yah man, collecting anecdotes is always preferable to data.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 30, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> System compatibility. I can carry an M and use the lenses I have with me as a backup. Flash system, I can use my extensive flash system with the M. If I want to use an exotic lens for some special purpose I already have it. For many users even batteries and chargers are interchangeable.
> 
> That kind of think is very difficult to put a value on but makes the experience of living with a system very different. When I transitioned to EOS from FD I was carrying two systems, I swore off ever doing that again!


Yes, I totally get the value of an M as a complement to an existing Canon kit. Nobody does system compatibility better than Canon.


----------



## melgross (Jul 30, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> My HK friend owns one of the Top-5 mobile phone Business-to-Business reseller chains in China and he is selling over 10,000 Doogee S60's and similar IP-67/IP-68 Rugged phones per day to various companies and group buys (he only sells wholesale lots at 10 phones minimum per order!) That's almost 4 million rugged phones per year!
> 
> ...


I doubt those numbers. I’m not reading what you’re stating. You’re looking at overall sales numbers. I said that most phones in China are low cost, but that Apple is the bigg4est seller of high end phones. That’s true.

And please grow up, and stop the caps. Whats your problem?


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## HarryFilm (Jul 31, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Yah man, collecting anecdotes is always preferable to data.



---

It is NOT an anecdote when my business buddy is selling 10,000+ Doogee S60's and like phones PER DAY in China !!!! That doesn't even count his next largest market which is India but they sell the cheaper phones there because India is much poorer than China! To get an idea of his sales rate, there are 86,400 seconds per 24 hour day. Every 8.64 seconds he sells another rugged phone! EVERY 8.64 seconds! No wonder the USA is deemed an UNIMPORTANT market compared to China, India, South Asia and even Europe!


.


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## HarryFilm (Jul 31, 2019)

melgross said:


> I doubt those numbers. I’m not reading what you’re stating. You’re looking at overall sales numbers. I said that most phones in China are low cost, but that Apple is the bigg4est seller of high end phones. That’s true.
> 
> And please grow up, and stop the caps. Whats your problem?



---

I am WAAAAY LESS grown up than you are. Sales Figures talk and uneduated guesses and online B.S. WALKS!

The BIGGEST PHONE SELLERS IN CHINA are the following phones:









Top 10 Most Popular Smartphone Brands and Models in China (Summer 2018)


The ten most popular Chinese smartphone brands buzzing on social media.



www.whatsonweibo.com





DO ANY of these look cheap to you? NOPE! If you know ANYTHING about the concept of "Face" in China (Which I can see you DO NOT!), then you would understand WHY these phones are the LARGEST sales leaders in China! In China, social constructs of "Financial Status and Social Appearances" mandate that one in the lower-to-upper-middle class Chinese (550 million of them!) must APPEAR to be comfortable and that means small status symbols such as Phones, Shoes, Clothes, Bikes, Computers, etc TEND to be the items most heavily spent on! Ergo, EVERYONE has these giant 6+ inch super phones that make an iPhone Max look small and wear those ridiculously BRIGHT COLOURED high-tech running/fashion shoes from "361"!

You must be thinking of INDIA, where the average phone is a really cheap, less-bright-phone and is costs $50 U.S. or even less!


P.S. I Drink Brawndo: THE THIRST MULITILATOR !!!!!!

It's like a Monster Truck you can pour into your face AND it makes you WIN AT ONLINE YELLING !!!!!

It's Got ELECTROLYTES and FIVE KINDS OF SUGAR !!!!!!

And it makes you wanna kick your lowercase letters into UPPERCASE ALL THE TIME !!!!

AND I LIKE KICKING lowercase letters into UPPERCASE every time and ALL-the-TIME! !!!

THAT'S MY PROBLEM !!!!


...


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 31, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> It is NOT an anecdote when my business buddy is selling 10,000+ Doogee S60's and like phones PER DAY in China !!!! That doesn't even count his next largest market which is India but they sell the cheaper phones there because India is much poorer than China! To get an idea of his sales rate, there are 86,400 seconds per 24 hour day. Every 8.64 seconds he sells another rugged phone! EVERY 8.64 seconds! No wonder the USA is deemed an UNIMPORTANT market compared to China, India, South Asia and even Europe!


Seeing what people are using on the street, indeed, is anecdotal.

Btw what has a rugged phone, something sold to be used in an industrial or adverse environment, have to do with typical consumers’ tastes?

Would you point to one person’s toughbook sales, with no context given for that person’s business strategy, to predict consumer laptop trends?


----------



## HarryFilm (Jul 31, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Seeing what people are using on the street, indeed, is anecdotal.
> 
> Btw what has a rugged phone, something sold to be used in an industrial or adverse environment, have to do with typical consumers’ tastes?
> 
> Would you point to one person’s toughbook sales, with no context given for that person’s business strategy, to predict consumer laptop trends?




---

Rugged phone are becoming quite popular WITH consumers in China and not just business. MANY of the phones my business buddy sells in wholesale blocks of 10, 100, 1000+ are resold to local consumers from every part of China and SouthEast Asia. And since many of the places he sells to are hot, humid and/or really rainy and/or bitingly cold and snowy in winter, China is now the world's BIGGEST MARKET for ruggedized IP-67/IP-68 smartphones and rugged tablets. The USA is still bigger for rugged LAPTOPS but those are mostly made in Taiwan, UK, Singapore and USA and shipped back to the USA. China OWNS the OEM, ODM and SALES market for Rugged smartphones and tablets ....BUT.... if this certain media company has anything to say, that same trend will be introduced to North American and European markets where consumers will BEGIN to prefer devices that can take a beating and keep on ticking!

Again I no longer see an issue with thicker phones if the extended all-day battery life, the large image sensors and waterproof ruggedness is there! Consumers WILL START spending serious money ($400 to $1500 US) for near-flagship and truly flagship rugged super-smartphones when they starting come out pretty soon now!

A certain well-known media company is getting ready to introduce RUGGEDIZED IP-68 2/3rds inch and APS-C super-smartphones which will shatter the current pipeline for all-in-one devices that have multiple onboard sensors, fast communications, advanced imaging and powerful computing capabilities in a SINGLE pocketable device! That will make rugged devices POPULAR in the USA, Canada, Mexico, Central America, South America and Europe!

The changeover is going to hit the current smartphone and point-n-shoot/DSLR manufacturers like a ton of bricks! Canon sure can't compete. Neither can Nikon! They have Faaaaaar Tooo Much corporate inertia to make a fast changeover into NEW product lines! However, I do see Olympus and Fujifilm making a run for this All-in-One Camera/Smartphone/Multi-Sensor market though because their parent companies are large enough and forward-enough thinking they can afford to take the risk and changeover QUICKLY! That famous media company GAVE a demo of their large sensor smartphone products to a group of Olympus employees/management and THEY (Olympus!) are very, very excited at licencing some of the technology!

Do I see an Olympus all-in-one micro-four-thirds super-camera + super-sensor smartphone coming up soon?

DOUBLE YES !!! I actually DO see that coming! And my guess is that mid-next year WE ABSOLUTELY WILL SEE an announcement from Olympus for a super-smartphone with a micro 4/3rds image sensor running at 60 fps 4k or even 8k 4:2:2 10-bit video + bright 4K screen + big long-life all-day battery + ruggedized IP-68 rating + a removable external lens attachment/handgrip box ALL for $1000 U.S. !!!!!!!!!!

The big media company will have the TRULY Big Boy super-smartphones, But Olympus and Fujifilm WILL make a BIG run at the super-smartphone all-in-one-device market!

Again, Canon and Nikon SIMPLY WILL NOT compete and will see SIGNIFICANT shrinkage in their camera markets!

.


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## Del Paso (Jul 31, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> I am WAAAAY LESS grown up than you are. Sales Figures talk and uneduated guesses and online B.S. WALKS!
> 
> ...


On what kind of dope are you ????? Asbach Uralt again?


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 31, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> Rugged phone are becoming quite popular WITH consumers in China and not just business. MANY of the phones my business buddy sells in wholesale blocks of 10, 100, 1000+ are resold to local consumers from every part of China and SouthEast Asia. And since many of the places he sells to are hot, humid and/or really rainy and/or bitingly cold and snowy in winter, China is now the world's BIGGEST MARKET for ruggedized IP-67/IP-68 smartphones and rugged tablets. The USA is still bigger for rugged LAPTOPS but those are mostly made in Taiwan, UK, Singapore and USA and shipped back to the USA. China OWNS the OEM, ODM and SALES market for Rugged smartphones and tablets ....BUT.... if this certain media company has anything to say, that same trend will be introduced to North American and European markets where consumers will BEGIN to prefer devices that can take a beating and keep on ticking!
> 
> ...


So I suppose all that was a “yes” to my very direct question?


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## HarryFilm (Jul 31, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> So I suppose all that was a “yes” to my very direct question?




Asbach Uralt is PERFECTLY FINE as an evening libation! It goes VERY WELL into the cake batter and Uralt-soaked cherries for Black Forest Cake!

It just MAKES MY DAY AND NIGHT HERE on CanonRumours soooooo much better!

---

I'm doing a lot of "Leaks" here but YES it seems that Olympus took a real close look at the 2/3rds inch and APS-C super-smartphones from said VERY BIG MEDIA COMPANY and are in ACTIVE CORPORATE TALKS with same to licence some of the large sensor patents relating to focal plane issues, removable external lens box with handgrip attachment technology and the 50+ and other-size megapixel GLOBAL SHUTTER SENSOR technology!

SO YES, while I may be having my evening tipple of Asbach Uralt (a relatively cheap but STILL very good German Brandy!), I have ALSO been getting my Burst Rate Anecdotes from MULTIPLE sources in Japan, China, Germany, Singapore and few from the USA .... Soooooo, I do have some INSIDE information on what SOME of the bigger manufacturers are doing!

Right now, the ABSOLUTE IN-PROGRESS PLAN of said VERY LARGE media company is the upcoming sales of a set of rugged/waterproof IP-68 rated, 2/3rds inch and APS-C super-smartphones BOTH with 4:3 aspect ratio 8912 x 6144 pixel (50.3 megapixels) global shutter sensors and BOTH with up to DCI 8192 by 4320 pixel HDR 8K video running at 60 fps and with up to 16-bits per colour channel set at FULL RAW, 3:1 or 2:1 RAW or intraframe + interframe compressed Wavelet/MP4/H.264/H.265 audio/video files! Still Images are FULL RAW, RGB uncompressed or run-length encoded lossless PNG, and JPEG or JPEG-2000 compressed file formats.

Both phones have very large ALL-DAY batteries and BOTH phones have TWO 3.5 mm jacks comprising an audio input jack AND a headphone out jack and AND a CLEAN HDMI up-to-60 fps 8K video output port AND a USB 3.1 port!

I DO KNOW WITH CERTAINTY that the APS-C phone will starting at $1500 US !!! --- I'm not fully sure what the price point of the 2/3rds inch phone is but I am guessing anywhere from $800 to $1200 US.

---

NOW, THE TENTATIVE PLAN for Olympus is by mid-2020 to announce and then make/sell a 20+ megapixel stills and 4k video 4:2:2 10 bit HDR at 60 fps video micro-four-thirds GLOBAL SHUTTER sensor Waterproof/Shockproof/FreezeProof IP-68 rugged super-smartphone with some extra unusual built-in environmental sensors (i.e. temp/pressure/3D-XYZ rotational mems, O2/H2S/NO/CO/CO2 gas sensors), a secondary low-res infrared camera (i.e. 640 by 480), GPS/GLONASS/Beidou/Galileo positioning and 4G/5G calling and internet functions for $1000 U.S. or less !!!!! The display may be 2.7K ....OR... it may be a full 4K resolution -- it is undecided which it will be AND whether it will be an OLED or IPS display! I personally think it will be 2.7K IPS for cost reasons if they want the rugged super-smartphone to be under $1000 US.

I've heard Fuji is ALSO interested and MAY have seen a prototype from said VERY LARGE MEDIA company but I don't have any other info as of yet as to what THEIR plans are!

---

Sooooooo, it looks like SOME of the Big Boys in Camera Tech are going into Super-Smartphones with all-in-one super-sensors and IP-68 ruggedness ratings! WHAT are Canon and Nikon going to do....... ( I hear crickets chirping !!!! ) ......

.


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## canonical (Aug 2, 2019)

don't believe for one second there will ever be phones with APS-C sensors, not even m43. physically simply too large, especially optical lens and cooling needs (for video)

i do look forward to Canon M5 mk. II at $ 899 beating Fuji X-T3 and M50 Mk II at $ 599. 

both with same, greatly improved sensor and digic, even better AF system. M5 II with beefier grip and LP-E6N power pack for 400+ shots. M5 II with ultra-compact form factor and pop-up EVF (G5X II style). 

only care for stills performance, video features totally irrelevant to me, I never record videos.


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