# Old [larger sensor] cameras a cheap alternative to 80D?



## mistaspeedy (Feb 1, 2017)

Hi there!
I will probably be trading in my 20D and getting a 1D Mark II for a small upgrade fee.

Combing through the data on (yes, I'll say the D word) DXOmark I find the following chart very interesting:
A comparison between the 1D mark II, 5D classic, and the 80D.
https://gyazo.com/c0a8a31a214593391b04d114b3e49b8c

It seems that the 80D is only slightly ahead of the 1D mark II, with the 5D classic beating them both when it comes to SNR (signal to noise ratio).

Low ISO dynamic range is an area where the new 80D shines (but the 5D catches up at ISO 800):
https://gyazo.com/65e7a932bc521f819fb7583a86699b46

Tonal range is pretty close across all cameras:
https://gyazo.com/168854f962bb33f7e0365382d8689db6

Color sensitivity is similar too, with the 5D pulling ahead at higher ISOs:
https://gyazo.com/34ba154c9efaf2c27e1f35735faf30b5

MY QUESTION:
So.... has anyone tested a few of these cameras side to side? How close are these two older cameras to the 80D's image quality, and can you describe in words what the charts show (and the real world implications)?

My wild guess: 80D has less noise in the shadows, but in scenes with less shadow/dynamic range, the older cameras are pretty much the same?

I honestly thought that these older cameras would be totally destroyed by the 80D in all areas, and that the competition would not even be close (until I took a look at the charts).


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 1, 2017)

Older APS-C cameras are going to miss the features of the 80D, and shadow noise on a older APS-C is definitely higher at low ISO's.

Your budget determines which recommendations to make.

If you are comparing 80D to FF, even a old FF like the 5D will produce beautiful images, probably beating all Canon APS-C cameras handily. It does not do video, if that's a concern. Canon no longer repairs them, but you can toss it if it dies and get another for less than a repair would have cost.

Its a personal choice based on a mix of dozens of things, but for just plain IQ at low ISO and no special super autofocus, any of the FF bodies will be excellent. A 1DS III is a very nice camera, and still repairable. I believe that the 1DS II's are not, plus you need firewire for some of the features. That catches some by surprise. The firewire driver does not support 64 bit computers so your firewire will want to be on a older computer. 

A used 1D MK IV is also a really good choice, its not FF, but does a great job.

Personally, there are two features that should be on a camera before I'l buy it.

1. AFMA
2. Liveview.

Thats why I recommend starting with 5D MK II or 1D/1DS MK III as low priced cameras to consider.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 1, 2017)

Thanks for the input! 
If I end up getting the 1D Mark II (because of a quick and easy trade-in for my 20D), it will only be a temporary camera (about a year) until I save up some more money and evaluate the situation for a more permanent (and expensive) option.

You took the words right out of my mouth for the 'must have' features on a camera. AFMA and live view are certainly useful, and they will definitely be on any more permanent solution I get. (I'll look at the options you listed).

Photography is a hobby I want to get into more, and I'm trying out various used combinations now to see how they handle in the real world.

Current kit:
Canon 20D + grip
Canon 18-55mm F3.5-F5.6 STM
Canon 55-250mm F4-F5.6 IS
Canon 50mm F1.8 STM

Kit I'll have after the trade (and I'll take my time before getting anything else):
Canon 1D mark II
Canon 50mm F1.8 STM
Tamron 28-75mm F2.8

As you can probably tell, I am leaning towards some full frame or 1.3x option, and part of the transition is getting rid of my EF-S lenses.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 2, 2017)

mistaspeedy said:


> Thanks for the input!
> If I end up getting the 1D Mark II (because of a quick and easy trade-in for my 20D), it will only be a temporary camera (about a year) until I save up some more money and evaluate the situation for a more permanent (and expensive) option.
> 
> You took the words right out of my mouth for the 'must have' features on a camera. AFMA and live view are certainly useful, and they will definitely be on any more permanent solution I get. (I'll look at the options you listed).
> ...



I misread your post, I thought you referred to 1DS Mark II, which is newer and way ahead of the 1D MK II. I'd stick with your 20D until you can move up a little more, unless your 20D is broken. The 1D MK II is a crop, so suddenly, those focal lengths become 1.3X wider. You will still have 8mp, and a old style battery that will not work on a newer model, it is little improvement, if any.


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## Sporgon (Feb 2, 2017)

I can't comment on the 80D but I have the M3 which seems pretty close in overall IQ, and also the 5D. (And 5DII). Used the 5D since its introduction in 2005, the got the 5DII as well in 2010, ran them both together for a few years, then sold the 5D, regretted it and bought another used late serial number one. 

One of the beauties of the Canon CR2 raw is that it is totally uncooked, so it really is able to benefit from more advanced raw converters as time goes on. Compare the OOC jpegs from the M3 and the 5D and the former is much better. But using the latest raw converters on them both the 5D is really very good at low ISO with a pleasing combination of very high perceived sharpness due to the large pixels, but not too much dramatic resolution. Hence why you'll hear some people say they like to use them for portraits. 

Although the 5D is "only" 13 MP it can be interpolated up to large sizes very well ( given good files) due to those larger, better defined pixels, so for instance if you make a 36" print from the 5D and 5DII - so both files are larger than native, there is actually very little difference, because the real resolution difference is small anyway. from my experience, once you enlarge over a certain size, the 5D is actually better than the M3. All at relatively low ISO of course. The actual quantum efficiency of the 5D ( and 5DII for that matter) is relatively low compared with the latest cameras, so it does suffer at higher ISO, unless you are in a position where you can over expose and bring back down in post. 

Regarding SNR I do not think you can take this metric on its own in practical shooting.

For shadow pushing, as long as you don't under expose, the 5D is not at all bad. Probably better than the II and III.

So to conclude, if you are shooting raw with latest converters at ISO below 400, do not need sophisticated AF or very shallow dof, don't need great speed of operation and are not printing over A3 size, the 5D is still as good as it gets at the present time.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 2, 2017)

Actually, my 20D is having a bit of trouble with autofocus consistency and accuracy (even after being serviced). The grip is also unreliable, turning the camera off randomly (when the nearly full batteries work perfectly in the camera). So it is going back to the person who sold it to me.

I realize that the 1D mark II is an old hunk of junk, just as ancient as my 20D, but it should be a small upgrade that gives me the chance to try out the weight of a 1-series body and the 1.3X crop factor.

It's just a temporary measure to see if the 1-series is for me, whilst collecting money to upgrade.


Thank you both for the input. I will probably end up with some full frame camera in the end. Whether it will be one of the 5D or 1Ds models, or the 6D, is yet to be determined... but I am in no rush, and will gain some experience with my temporary setup in the meantime.


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## Snzkgb (Feb 2, 2017)

mistaspeedy said:


> Thanks for the input!
> If I end up getting the 1D Mark II (because of a quick and easy trade-in for my 20D), it will only be a temporary camera (about a year) until I save up some more money and evaluate the situation for a more permanent (and expensive) option.
> 
> You took the words right out of my mouth for the 'must have' features on a camera. AFMA and live view are certainly useful, and they will definitely be on any more permanent solution I get. (I'll look at the options you listed).
> ...


I had once 30D and 1D Mark IIN, which is close to your 20D and your option of 1D Mark II.
1D Mark IIN is definately a better image quality machine than 30D, has great AF system even by nowdays standards, but even at ISO 800 the images are noisy.

If you want really cheap and great IQ canon camera, go for 5D classic. 1D II is not bad option either.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 2, 2017)

That's the exact comparison I was hoping to hear. The 20D and 30D have an identical sensor. The same thing with the 1D mark II and 1D mark IIN (same sensor).

Considering I have basically zero budget at the moment, it's more a matter of what camera is available with this trade-in, than choosing the ideal camera.

Things will change later this year, so that's when I'll start seriously weighing my options for body and glass.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 2, 2017)

Seeing that your 20D is dying, you will find the camera to be a definite upgrade. It is certainly capable of taking great photos, just ancient when I bought mine in 2009. Junk, it is not.

Here is a photo from my 1D MK II of a killdeer nest in my front yard. The birds all hatched by the next day, and moved out the next. They are born ready to leave the nest. Those eggs blend in with the gravel rocks very nicely.

Here is a second image, also the same lens.

It was with a 70-200 L, the model was not recorded, but I think it was either the non IS or my f/4 IS, it was many years ago back in 2009. I paid $600 for that camera including a lens and nice case which I still use. This is at 200mm ISO 400, f/6.3 and cropped severely.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 2, 2017)

Nice shots (as well as your knowledge of the subject matter).

I should know more about my camera/lens exchange tomorrow afternoon (if it will take place or not).
I will make sure I post my experiences if it goes down.


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## Snzkgb (Feb 2, 2017)

Here is my casual shots from 1D Mark IIN. Possibly with 85/1.8 lens, I don't remember.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 2, 2017)

Nice shots. I am also looking forward to the slightly shallower depth of field I will be able to get with the 1.3x crop of the 1D mark II compared to the 20D's 1.6x crop. Portraits taken with my 50mm F1.8 STM should pop just a little bit more 

The Tamron 28-75mm F2.8 lens I'm getting should also totally blow away the kit lens (Canon 18-55mm F3.5-F5.6 STM) in a number of ways.

I rarely shoot at wider than 24mm on the kit lens (38.3mm equivalent when counting 1.6x crop), so the 28mm wide end of the Tamron (36.4mm equivalent when counting 1.3x crop) should not be too limiting in most cases.


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## Snzkgb (Feb 2, 2017)

mistaspeedy said:


> Nice shots. I am also looking forward to the slightly shallower depth of field I will be able to get with the 1.3x crop of the 1D mark II compared to the 20D's 1.6x crop. Portraits taken with my 50mm F1.8 STM should pop just a little bit more
> 
> The Tamron 28-75mm F2.8 lens I'm getting should also totally blow away the kit lens (Canon 18-55mm F3.5-F5.6 STM) in a number of ways.
> 
> I rarely shoot at wider than 24mm on the kit lens (38.3mm equivalent when counting 1.6x crop), so the 28mm wide end of the Tamron (36.4mm equivalent when counting 1.3x crop) should not be too limiting in most cases.


You should also consider buying 10-18 IS STM to your existing kit plus buying a newer crop body, like 50D or even 60D.
1D Mark II won't make any wonders alone, it need FF lenses.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 2, 2017)

I will consider all options, the point you make is certainly valid.
For starters I will have two full frame lenses:
Canon 50mm F1.8 STM
Tamron 28-75 F2.8

I will of course have to get more lenses, regardless of which route I go (full frame, 1.3x or 1.6x).

I will get a feel for the camera and lens first, and make a decision when I have some more money and experience with this new kit.


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## danski0224 (Feb 3, 2017)

mistaspeedy said:


> Hi there!
> I will probably be trading in my 20D and getting a 1D Mark II for a small upgrade fee.



The 20D and 1DII were released in the same year.

You will be picking up a slightly bigger review screen (physical size and resolution), way more AF points and more FPS.

Both have the same number of megapixels, but the 1DII is APS-H vs APS-C, so the pixels in the 1D are larger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canon_EOS_digital_cameras

There is more to a camera than the number of megapixels.

The 1DII was the top of the line when your 20D was new. Even if the sensor was seemingly "the same" there will be differences in output, much like the 5DII vs 1DsIII.

I suspect that you will be quite surprised at how much better the 1DII files will look compared to the 20D files.

And yes, most of the custom functions will only be accessible via FireWire and an old copy of the Canon software. It will NOT work on anything MS based newer than 32 bit XP- even a virtual machine.


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## steepjay (Feb 3, 2017)

I had a 20D and moved up to a 5D original and have some really great shots from it. I skipped the Mk2 and have the 5D3 now along with a 1Dmk4 and a 6D. The 1D4 is a really great camera (APS-H sensor so 1.3 crop) but for general purpose shooting, I would recommend either a 5D2 or a used 6D. The 1D is heavy and the crop means needing very wide lenses for WA shots. If your budget is very tight, take an original 5D over the 1D2.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 4, 2017)

Well, I ended up getting the 1D mark II and the Tamron 28-75 F2.8 lens.
I have only had a short time to play with it, and all I can do is take a few random images in my dark apartment (night).
I'll do a proper test soon. This camera is an interesting beast, and takes some getting used to because of the whole different concept of operating it.

For now I am happy with things, but I will only know after I do some proper test shots during the day.


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