# The highend comparison ;-)



## daniela (Aug 23, 2017)

Michael the Maven posted an youtube video on an comparison of the highend bodies.
Interestingly the Sony A9 performed superior to the other bodies in some aspects. I would like to see this features in my Canon bodies too. As he said, sony lists to its customers. I do not think Canon or Nikon does.
You can watch it at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xo9qKPVhEk


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## Mikehit (Aug 23, 2017)

daniela said:


> Michael the Maven posted an youtube video on an comparison of the highend bodies.
> Interestingly the Sony A9 performed superior to the other bodies in some aspects. I would like to see this features in my Canon bodies too. As he said, sony lists to its customers. I do not think Canon or Nikon does.
> You can watch it at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xo9qKPVhEk



Rather than having me wade through that video, can you explain where you think Sony are superior what you want Canon to do?
To say that Canon does to listen to its customers is plain dumb - listening to them is why you have massive outcries from a very vocal minority every time Canon release a new body but it still ends up selling well.


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## daniela (Aug 23, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> daniela said:
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Hi Mikehit!
Edit: You missed my ";-)" in the headline
If Canon would listen to our wishes, they would have given us more dynamic range on the 6D MK II and 4K 

What I like at the Alpha 9 is the quiet _noiseless_ burst shooting mode (and this is an big plus if you shott in the near of birds), the low noise at >1600 ISO and the tracking AF (when our model jumped with the skateboard, the nearly field covering AF followed the head precisely)


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## PavelR (Aug 23, 2017)

I like also:
* reviewing image in the viewfinder
* zebra/histogram in the viewfinder before image is captured
* Eye AF - recomposing from left 1/3 to right 1/3 can be done only by moving camera and eye is still in the focus


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## soloyc (Aug 23, 2017)

Canon listened to most of the customers and the market in designing the 6DII: they provided an improved AF system, increased the frame rate, improved weather sealing and added a swivel screen. Those features were suggested from almost day 1. However, I do not remember reading from most of the 6D owners that the DR was so bad that it was the most important feature to improve...

But I disgress and regarding the high end bodies, I do not believe Canon did not listen to its target customers either: does anyone complain about bad DR and 4K on the 1DXII?



daniela said:


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## Dylan777 (Aug 23, 2017)

PavelR said:


> I like also:
> * reviewing image in the viewfinder
> * zebra/histogram in the viewfinder before image is captured
> * Eye AF - recomposing from left 1/3 to right 1/3 can be done only by moving camera and eye is still in the focus



My number #1 favorite feature as mirrorless shooter, especially, shooting with f1.4 primes.

A9 addressed many-many minor issues from A7 plus new improvements: battery life, colors, buffers, etc....A9 has everything I ever wanted from mirrorless system. It will stay in bag for many years to come


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## Mikehit (Aug 23, 2017)

daniela said:


> Hi Mikehit!
> If Canon would listen to our wishes, they would have given us more dynamic range on the 6D MK II and 4K
> 
> What I like at the Alpha 9 is the quiet burst shooting mode (and this is an big plus if you shott in the near of birds), the low noise at >1600 ISO and the tracking AF (when our model jumped with the skateboard, the nearly field covering AF followed the head precisely)



I agree with soloyc - more DR is certainly welcome but not top of the list. And even then, the 5DIV, 80D and 1Dx are so close to Sony in practical terms that to pick the 6D2 as a criticism of Canon as a whole is stretching a point.
As for 4k? That has been done to death so many times and is probably way behind DR as an essential upgrade. 
I have a 7D2 and 6D and the quite mode is excellent, but I also have a 1Dx2 and have not scared any birds yet even from as close as 5metres.

The coverage of AF points is not a result of Canon's inability to design effective AF but is about their preference for phase AF rather than contrast AF. 
But overall, many (nearly all) of the non-sensor advantages of the Sony arise from its design as a mirrorless camera and for some very good reasons Canon has decided to remain concentrated on DSLR. 

When Sony get anywhere near the success of Canon then I will have more sympathy with comments as to whether Canon listen to their customers. Bear in mind Canon is #2 in mirrorless as well!

I am not being a fanboy on this by any means - I would love to have all the functions that Sony offer in Canon DSLRs. But it is all about balancing the different priorities from the masses of marketing feedback that they get and when people talk about 'listening to customers' then the only true test is how many customers by their products (ie do they get the balance of issues right). Otherwise 'listening to customers' is really nothing more than 'listening to me'.


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## BillB (Aug 23, 2017)

PavelR said:


> I like also:
> * reviewing image in the viewfinder
> * zebra/histogram in the viewfinder before image is captured
> * Eye AF - recomposing from left 1/3 to right 1/3 can be done only by moving camera and eye is still in the focus



It's not all that easy to do image review or zebra stripes in an optiical viewfinder.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 23, 2017)

Very often, there is a trade off, you can get features that sound nice, but only by also adding features that are unwanted. Its a juggling act to produce something that appeals to the largest number of customers. Generally, that means pricing entry level models at the lowest possible price.

If a person wants features found in a $4500 camera body for $2000, they are dreaming. Pony up your $4500 and see what you get.


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## unfocused (Aug 23, 2017)

Skimmed through the video. Seems pretty much of a joke. Particularly amused by the "sports" test which consisted of a single person jogging back and forth. A situation no sports photographer ever encounters. The more common challenge for autofocus is to keep the camera focused on the correct subject when you've got a field full of other players moving in and out of the frame.

Anyway, not sure what the point here is supposed to be. Buyers of the Canon and Nikon flagships are already heavily invested in the brand and have made their decision based on past experience. Sure, if one company consistently lagged behind on key features, it might have an impact, but that's not the case. There simply isn't that much difference between the two flagships and candidly, Sony isn't even in the game yet.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 23, 2017)

Dylan777 said:


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How many times have you thought that Dylan?  ;D


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## daniela (Aug 23, 2017)

unfocused said:


> Skimmed through the video. Seems pretty much of a joke. Particularly amused by the "sports" test which consisted of a single person jogging back and forth. A situation no sports photographer ever encounters. The more common challenge for autofocus is to keep the camera focused on the correct subject when you've got a field full of other players moving in and out of the frame.
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> Anyway, not sure what the point here is supposed to be. Buyers of the Canon and Nikon flagships are already heavily invested in the brand and have made their decision based on past experience. Sure, if one company consistently lagged behind on key features, it might have an impact, but that's not the case. There simply isn't that much difference between the two flagships and candidly, Sony isn't even in the game yet.



This was the reason, why I added the ";-)" in the headline. 
Yes, Sony has to struggle, to come close to Nikon/Canon. But in some years, maybe they are. They are doing hard on it, just see the frequent announcements of lenses (and they are often high end).
As I´ve been critizied hard today, when I wrote that in my Country the Sony service ist not good (and it isn´t!), the service quality is an lacked buying-decision. 
But it is hard to resist the GAS-virus, when you read some postings here. Especially, when you join an workshop and an Sony specialist tells you how to use the body and asks for feedback afterwards. And Sony called me later...


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## daniela (Aug 23, 2017)

Dylan777 said:


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Maybe you will switch to canon, when they build an FF MLS too... ;D
http://www.canonwatch.com/canon-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-eventually-coming-2018-sensor-30mp/


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## unfocused (Aug 23, 2017)

daniela said:


> ...But it is hard to resist the GAS-virus, when you read some postings here. Especially, when you join an workshop and an Sony specialist tells you how to use the body and asks for feedback afterwards. And Sony called me later...



Valid point. Sony is trying hard to capture a share of the high-end market (good for them and good for us, if it makes Canon and Nikon more competitive). I have to admit, I'm biased against "Michael the Maven" because he used to regularly troll this site with posts trying to promote his videos.

Some people on this site defend Canon's autofocus with religious fervor. Frankly I tend to agree with DPR, that it still has a lot of room for improvement and I'm willing to entertain the possibility that Nikon may be superior in that regard.


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## daniela (Aug 23, 2017)

unfocused said:


> daniela said:
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> > ...But it is hard to resist the GAS-virus, when you read some postings here. Especially, when you join an workshop and an Sony specialist tells you how to use the body and asks for feedback afterwards. And Sony called me later...
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Ok, I did not know that the Video author is promoting his videos here. Thanks.

AF: Yes, I´m still struggling to get most out of the AF system of the 5D MK IV. Last week terns took everything out of the AF system, when they performed varios high-speed-batturns over an lake surface. And it takes a lot of concentration to deal well with this body.
I´m still not satisfied with the AF, when birds come directly toward to you. A lot of these shots are unsharp. Laterally passing birds and birds that fly away are no problem.


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## Mikehit (Aug 23, 2017)

daniela said:


> I´m still not satisfied with the AF, when birds come directly toward to you. A lot of these shots are unsharp. Laterally passing birds and birds that fly away are no problem.



Even the best AF in the world relies on the photographer to keep the AF point on the bird for enough time to lock on, even when you have things like iTR or Nikon's 3D focussing.
But birds coming hard at you, especially with aerial acrobatics, is still a huge challenge with any camera. If you can say with certainty that the main focus point was locked onto the bird for every frame of the sequence then it maybe the AF cannot keep up, if the AF point wavers by any amount I will always wonder if it is the user. In challenging situations like that you need to be hypercritical before you commit to changing cameras.


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## Jopa (Aug 24, 2017)

I would avoid watching a video made by a person that calls himself a "maven".


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## Jopa (Aug 24, 2017)

Dylan777 said:


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2 years top until they release an A9-2 that hopefully won't have some issues of the current generation, and maybe will even shoot 4k @ 60p


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 24, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> daniela said:
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Software wise, capturing and locking on to one of the birds is likely quite possible. In the current state of the art, ability to run really heavy duty software comes up against hardware limitations, starting with the relatively underpowered processor they must use in cameras to make a battery last longer than 5 seconds. If we did have the power to run a capable processor, then cooling the camera would also be neigh impossible, its a challenge even now.


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## candc (Aug 24, 2017)

A7rii: I really like being able to see the exposure compensation in the viewfinder. It eliminates the guesswork. I also like how the focus peaking and viewfinder magnification work with manual focus lenses.I don't like the freeze frame effect you get in continuous shooting mode. I haven't used the a9 but it seems that is not a problem with it.

Sony is steadily whittling away at the criticisms of their mirrorless cameras and making them compare very favorably and even better than dslr's in many ways. There are still drawbacks but the list is getting shorter.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 24, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


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As long they get it right, I'm ok with it Scott


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## Dylan777 (Aug 24, 2017)

daniela said:


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I'm open to any good FF mirrorless. But I doubt Canon would have better mirrorless over Sony & Fuji anytime soon


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## Dylan777 (Aug 24, 2017)

unfocused said:


> Skimmed through the video. Seems pretty much of a joke. Particularly amused by the "sports" test which consisted of a single person jogging back and forth. A situation no sports photographer ever encounters. The more common challenge for autofocus is to keep the camera focused on the correct subject when you've got a field full of other players moving in and out of the frame.
> 
> Anyway, not sure what the point here is supposed to be. Buyers of the Canon and Nikon flagships are already heavily invested in the brand and have made their decision based on past experience. Sure, if one company consistently lagged behind on key features, it might have an impact, but that's not the case. There simply isn't that much difference between the two flagships and candidly, Sony isn't even in the game yet.



A9 has lock-on af = you pick target by half press shutter then cams will cont. to track it.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 24, 2017)

candc said:


> A7rii: I really like being able to see the exposure compensation in the viewfinder. It eliminates the guesswork. I also like how the focus peaking and viewfinder magnification work with manual focus lenses.I don't like the freeze frame effect you get in continuous shooting mode. I haven't used the a9 but it seems that is not a problem with it.
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> Sony is steadily whittling away at the criticisms of their mirrorless cameras and making them compare very favorably and even better than dslr's in many ways. There are still drawbacks but the list is getting shorter.



Besides that, playing with DOF through EVF is help with those creative shots 


I have 2 friends(pro wedding for 20yrs plus) they just dumped all their 1dx II, 5D4 and all their "L" lenses. They now carry four A9 + two a7r II.


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## Talys (Aug 24, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


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There would need to be a "bird mode" -- it's tough when the birds start in the trees, or are flying not against blue sky (or other homogenous background), because the camera just doesn't know whether you're trying to catch the bird, the flower, the leaf, the squirrel.... or the other bird.

How could Sony win my money with an EVF? I would buy an A9II if it had Bird Mode, and through the EVF, highlighted boxes around everything it thought was a bird in the viewfinder, let me pick one, and then automatically tracked it. Extra points if it had motion detection, and took a series of photos every time it moved.

I would pay huge, huge bucks it could be attached to a motorized gimbal that would automatically pan and track the bird as it moved 

And then 1 year later, I would sell that $25,000 rig and because birding will have become a boring, pointless exercise, LOL.


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## Jopa (Aug 26, 2017)

Dylan777 said:


> candc said:
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> > A7rii: I really like being able to see the exposure compensation in the viewfinder. It eliminates the guesswork. I also like how the focus peaking and viewfinder magnification work with manual focus lenses.I don't like the freeze frame effect you get in continuous shooting mode. I haven't used the a9 but it seems that is not a problem with it.
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Hope they also carry some lenses, otherwise they must be super PRO if they can take pictures without lenses


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## SecureGSM (Aug 26, 2017)

Had a play with A9 yesterday. Man, the thing is tiny. My hands are about an averag size but I struggled to grip the camera properly. There is no way I could be Shooting with A9 and a telephoto lens attached for 8 hours and avoid damaged joints mid to long term. 
Sigma 120-300 F2.8 Sports with m11 adapter attached to A9 is a rediculous combination handheld.



Jopa said:


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## PavelR (Aug 26, 2017)

I own all 3 pieces of gear you mention (+ battery grip) and I do not have any problem with weight distribution comparing to Canon 1Ds3. I have long fingers & relatively slim thus I do not have any problem using 85 GM, 70-200 GM. I have only one problem with small size of all buttons - I do not think that I'll be able to shoot with gloves. Native lenses AF I like far better than on Canon (AF speed is the same, but frame coverage and Eye AF are huge advantages). Adopted lenses works pretty good on AF-S mode.



SecureGSM said:


> Had a play with A9 yesterday. Man, the thing is tiny. My hands are about an averag size but I struggled to grip the camera properly. There is no way I could be Shooting with A9 and a telephoto lens attached for 8 hours and avoid damaged joints mid to long term.
> Sigma 120-300 F2.8 Sports with m11 adapter attached to A9 is a rediculous combination handheld.


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## Don Haines (Aug 26, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


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Actually........

I have a p/s camera that does facial recognition, plus it has "cat mode" and "dog mode" where the AF will track the pet....


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## Dylan777 (Aug 26, 2017)

Jopa said:


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Sony is missing few bazookas in their mirrorless: 400mf2.8, 600mmf4 etc...However, not every A9 owners would need these big lenses. From everyday large primes to f2.8 zooms Sony covered. I don't see reason we keep mention Sony has issue with lens selection.

Visit your site, very cute model.Great shots


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## Talys (Aug 26, 2017)

Dylan777 said:


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I don't think it was a dig at Sony lenses. More that before, they were lugging around all these Canon bodies and L lenses, and now they're carrying Sony bodies (without mention of lenses ). 

On the subject of Sony lenses, though, my friend with an A7RII spends a lot more for his lens purchases than I do for Canon lenses. I don't watch Sony prices that closely, but it_seems_ that street prices have a pretty big gap.

I think a lot of people who go aren't professionals and who get into a high end body like an A9 are really unprepared for how puny the improvement is when they use their compatible, but relatively low-end lens. Then, they're equally unprepared for how puny the improvement is again, when they use their new top-of-the-line lens, and are frustrated by how their portraits, wildlife shots, sunsets, and landscapes just don't look anything like professional photography.


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## Mikehit (Aug 28, 2017)

Dylan777 said:


> Sony is missing few bazookas in their mirrorless: 400mf2.8, 600mmf4 etc...However, not every A9 owners would need these big lenses. From everyday large primes to f2.8 zooms Sony covered. I don't see reason we keep mention Sony has issue with lens selection.
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> Visit your site, very cute model.Great shots



IMO the criticism comes because the A9 was clearly aimed at sports and wildlife and anyone who does those regularly will want want 400mm+ with f4 or faster. 
If you use a CaNikon tele (or even their own A-mount tele!) with adapter all those AF/drive features vaporise in a cloud of footnotes on their spec sheet. 

And if you don't need their fancy AF and functionality, the case for buying the A9 becomes weaker.


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## padam (Aug 28, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> Dylan777 said:
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It has a lot more going for it at the moment, it is the most powerful small camera that can be used completely silently with almost no penalty on image quality. It has tracking eye-AF with the whole sensor area that can be used with a very good EVF.
It has full sensor readout 4k recording with built in image stabilization (pity about S-Log but not much different to Canon, still has more features)
And it does not have the usual drawbacks with mirrorless like the battery or the single card slot or the general lack of responsiveness.

Yes it is very expensive, one pays a lot for the technology (the production cost is probably not that high) but we probably won't see a camera like this with a stacked full-frame sensor in the foreseeable future (more resolution will compromise other features, same with less resolution)


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## Dylan777 (Aug 28, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> Dylan777 said:
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Faster frame rate and more adv. AF are huge benefits in photography, regardless, type of photography you in. Sure wildlife and sports shooters would enjoy more....what about wedding pros? You think they would benefit lugging that 400f2.8 and 600f4 around their neck with A9???

Wedding group shots, to have camera recognizes(face recognition AF) on the groom + bride and stays in focus while compose the shots....that just one of many features wedding pros could benefit. About completely "silent shooting mode" in the church???


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## privatebydesign (Aug 28, 2017)

Dylan777 said:


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I've shot a fair number of weddings and I have never found either frame rate or af limiting, what I would kill for is the truly silent camera. If I were a minister (actually I am but that is a different story) I'd ban anything but truly silent cameras from the service.

I really like some of the features in the A9, also the D850, and just like the rest of us if I could pick and choose features I'd take a bit from each. However, there is one thing I, as a professional image maker, can't do my job without, lenses. Canon are not only ahead but are pushing ever further ahead with specialist lenses, if that is something you need Canon really don't have any serious competition.

I have used the TS-E 17 extensively since not long after release, it has earned me more than just about every other lens I own, the 11-24 is catching up with it fast, the new TS-E's elevate that specialist area even more. Of course that is pretty irrelevant if you mainly work a 24-70 f2.8 or a faster 35 and/or 85 primes. I had thought the zenith of photography had been a half dozen years ago with many competing brands, I now think we have a double bump, let the big three push each other, we can only benefit whichever brand ultimately suits our uses best.


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## Mikehit (Aug 28, 2017)

Dylan777 said:


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Please re-read my post. Carefully. And you will see I don't actually disagree with you.


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