# Lenses for 1DC?



## billybob (Aug 29, 2012)

I need some advice on lenses for the soon to be released 1DC and couldn't find a better place on the forum to raise the issue.

My understanding was the 1DC used the EF system, so thought I would be okay choosing whatever EF lenses I liked and shooting away in 4K. But I have now learnt that actually if you're using EF Cinema zoom lenses you have to change the setting on the camera from the 4K APS-H crop to Full HD Super 35mm crop. What I need to know is what lenses can you use on the 1DC in 4K mode?

Please note that my question is deliberately broad and vague - I am not yet at the point where I want to get very specific about the glass, nor indeed specific about shooting in 4k... rather I am looking to know what range I can choose from and definitely be covered in any format on the camera.

Any input would be much appreciated!


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## 5D Freak (Aug 29, 2012)

Good question about the new "cine" lenses - does the image circle cover full frame? My gut feeling, without thorough research is that they would, given their match to equivalent focal length/apeture specs. A "t" stop (transmission equivalent to "f" stop) and focal length would lead me to believe that Canon are using existing optical tech and therefore full frame coverage. I cannot be sure. They already have an 85mm t1.6 and now a 14mm t3.1. I'm sure others can answer.


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## billybob (Aug 29, 2012)

Mmmm... since EF lenses, not EF-S, are designed for those full frame sensors, perhaps any normal EF lenses would work fine at any resolution on the 1DC... except those zoom lenses that have been said to not work at 4k on this model... or are there other types of EF lenses that might not work?


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## untitled10 (Aug 29, 2012)

According to this they only have a super 35 coverage http://www.photographyblog.com/news/canon_cn-e15.5-47mm_t2.8_l_s_sp_cn-e30-105mm_t2.8_l_s_sp/


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## preppyak (Aug 29, 2012)

billybob said:


> except those zoom lenses that have been said to not work at 4k on this model


Well, these zooms are designed for an APS-C image circle, thus why you have to change to Super 35 mode. If you're in an APS-H mode using a lens designed for an APS-C image circle, you're going to get an ugly vignette. My guess is they were designed for the APS-C image circle to keep them lighter (thus the headline, "lightweight compact zooms" on the CR page)

EF lenses, being designed for a full-frame image circle, would presumably not have this issue


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## Axilrod (Aug 29, 2012)

I'm pretty sure the cinema primes are the same as general EF lenses in terms of FOV (14mm would actually be 18.3mm on 1DC in 4k mode). I would say you'd be ok with any EF lenses, I'd go with Zeiss ZE's honestly as they are much better suited for video, or the CP.2's if you have a huge budget.


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## Videoshooter (Aug 29, 2012)

The Canon cinema primes should cover the FF, since they appear to be re-housed L-primes. The zooms however, where designed specificially for cinema use to cover a super-35 cinema sensor, so might not work on FF cameras. 

All EF photo lenses (which inlcuded all L-series lenses) can be used on the 1Dc and will cover the full sensor at 4k. EF-S lenses will not work, and I'm guessing they will not even physically be capable of mounting on the 1Dc (same as with the 1Dx/5D).


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## billybob (Aug 30, 2012)

Folks, I just have to say thanks a million because this is exactly the kind of discussion I was after.

I will be buying two lenses - one is Canon and one I would like to be Zeiss or Leica if possible although I admit there may be some romanticism or subjectivity there because we used those lenses back in film school... 

I have already chosen the Canon - it's the new wide one, the Canon CN-E 24mm T1.5 L F Cine Lens - and very happy with that decision.

I just need to choose a Zeiss or Leica now. I'd probably like something slightly less wide but still somewhat wide and with a shallow depth of field. Ideally, I would like that cinematic effect, where the foreground is sharp but quickly softens in the background.

Given my forestated concern about my lenses working in all formats on this cam, and what I am saying about Zeiss and Leica preference and shallow depth of field, any recommendations - especially from you Axilrod? ;D


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## Axilrod (Aug 30, 2012)

billybob said:


> Folks, I just have to say thanks a million because this is exactly the kind of discussion I was after.
> 
> I will be buying two lenses - one is Canon and one I would like to be Zeiss or Leica if possible although I admit there may be some romanticism or subjectivity there because we used those lenses back in film school...
> 
> ...



I can't really speak about Leica, as I don't have much experience with them, although from what I've seen they're all amazing, but will they even fit on an EF mount? But I can say that I absolutely love all of the Zeiss glass in terms of color accuracy/rendition, bokeh, sharpness, and micro contrast, they are all superb. I'd say a 50mm would be pretty crucial to add to your set initially. There are a few options with that:

1.Zeiss CP. 2 50mm T/1.5 Super speed - $4500, available October 15th. 
2. Zeiss CP.2 50mm T/2.1 - $3990, already available
3. Zeiss ZE 50mm f/2 Makro - $1283 - Amazingly sharp lens, just as good optically as the others

Honestly even the Zeiss 50mm f/1.4 is a stellar lens, and it's only $725. Keep in mind the CP.2's are essentially just ZE's in a cinema housing with built in gears and smooth aperture ring, but optically they are very similar. The only difference you'll see visually is the CP.2's have a 14-blade iris vs. the 9 the ZE's have, so you'll get a more circular bokeh. If you have the money by all means go for the cine lenses, but I wouldn't expect too much more out of them than the ZE's in terms of optics. You're paying more for the convenience of uniform size across the board to make it easier to switch them out and make adjustments on your rig/mattebox. And of course the focus throw is much better (although they are great on the ZE's) and you have a smooth aperture ring so you can change it without anyone noticing. 

I'm not sure about the Canons, although I'd venture to say they are optically similar to their L-counterparts just in a cinema housing. They are debuting quite a bit cheaper than initially expected, they said $6800 when they were announced but now that I'm looking they're all around $5k. 

I'd also look into the Duclos modded lenses (http://www.ducloslenses.com/), they pretty much sell the ZF.2's with the aperture ring declicked and a follow focus gear built in, and I think they make the thread size uniform as well. You'd be able to get the entire set (http://www.ducloslenses.com/products/zeiss-zf-2-set) for about the same price as 2 cinema primes. Just a thought.


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## billybob (Aug 30, 2012)

Thanks Axilrod. I have just emailed them to check that all five lenses in their Zeiss ZF.2 set are compatible with the Canon EOS DC1 in both HD and 4K Mode. I like the look of that. Will let you know what they say.


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## wickidwombat (Aug 31, 2012)

What about the ziess 85mm it's supposed to be super awesome


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## Axilrod (Aug 31, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> What about the ziess 85mm it's supposed to be super awesome



If he's only going to start with the 24mm and one other I think the 85mm might be too long. It's 110mm with the 1.3x crop in 4k mode. But I would suggest that as the next purchase after the 50mm. That was my suggestion if he was set on a cinema prime. But if he was willing to do the ZF's the Duclos set includes all of these (so he would get the 85mm):

21mm f/2.8
25mm f/2.0
35mm f/1.4
50mm f/2.0 macro
85mm f/1.4


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## Axilrod (Aug 31, 2012)

billybob said:


> Thanks Axilrod. I have just emailed them to check that all five lenses in their Zeiss ZF.2 set are compatible with the Canon EOS DC1 in both HD and 4K Mode. I like the look of that. Will let you know what they say.



They are most definitely compatible with the 1DC, any EF mount lens will be. The only difference between HD and 4K mode will be the field of view, but it won't be too much different since the crop is only 1.3x. The ZF.2's were actually intended for Nikon, but the Duclos set all come with EF adapters attached out of the box. Don't let the fact that they were originally intended for Nikon scare you, they are optically identical, but the manual iris ring is preferred for cinema (which the ZE's don't have).

Also, I think this test will be of interest to you: http://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2011/12/lens-test/. It's a comparison between Canon L glass, the Zeiss ZE's (same as ZF's, the Duclos set), the CP.2's, and the Leica R. You'll be hard pressed to tell a difference between the CP.2's and the ZE's, the only place you can really tell a slight difference is in the guitar scene at the end, the bokeh is more rounded on the CP.2 because of it's 14-blade iris (vs. the 9 of the ZF.2 counterparts).


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## Policar (Aug 31, 2012)

For the money the Samyang lenses can't be beat. If a little breathing (not that bad) doesn't bother you and flare isn't an issue they are really on par with the best of the best and super inexpensive.

24mm f1.4 on APS-H "feels" like 18mm on super35, 35mm feels like 25mm, etc. So a 24m, 35, 50, 85 kit at f1.4 then a big zoom or optionally an UWA zoom (depending on needs) would cover most things great.

The typical "cinema" package is 18mm to 85mm at f2.8 or faster (in APS-C/super35 terms).

Optically these lenses are more than up to the task, too.


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## Axilrod (Aug 31, 2012)

Policar said:


> For the money the Samyang lenses can't be beat. If a little breathing (not that bad) doesn't bother you and flare isn't an issue they are really on par with the best of the best and super inexpensive.
> 
> 24mm f1.4 on APS-H "feels" like 18mm on super35, 35mm feels like 25mm, etc. So a 24m, 35, 50, 85 kit at f1.4 would cover things great.
> 
> Optically these lenses are more than up to the task, too.



He's buying a $10k camera and the first lens he seemed seriously interested in is $5200, the Samyangs are great if you're on a budget but clearly he's not.


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## Policar (Aug 31, 2012)

Axilrod said:


> Policar said:
> 
> 
> > For the money the Samyang lenses can't be beat. If a little breathing (not that bad) doesn't bother you and flare isn't an issue they are really on par with the best of the best and super inexpensive.
> ...



They're comparable to the Canon L equivalents (well, the 35mm outperforms the 35mm L wide open and the others are not far behind) and, in my experience, they outperform the Cooke S4s and Zeiss Superspeeds as well in terms of sharpness and micro contrast wide open. Granted the mechanics and "look" are worse, but just because you CAN spend more money doesn't mean you need to, especially when the rest of a decent package (tripod, camera support, matte box, filters) can add up so fast. I know a lot of Scarlet users are using these lenses, and that's the same price range (though I'd much prefer the 1DC!).

That said, if money is no issue, the Canon cinema primes seem like the best things going; the selection is just very limited and the prices are high.


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## Axilrod (Aug 31, 2012)

Policar said:


> They're comparable to the Canon L equivalents (well, the 35mm outperforms the 35mm L wide open and the others are not far behind) and, in my experience, they outperform the Cooke S4s and Zeiss Superspeeds as well in terms of sharpness and micro contrast wide open. Granted the mechanics and "look" are worse, but just because you CAN spend more money doesn't mean you need to, especially when the rest of a decent package (tripod, camera support, matte box, filters) can add up so fast. I know a lot of Scarlet users are using these lenses, and that's the same price range (though I'd much prefer the 1DC!).
> 
> That said, if money is no issue, the Canon cinema primes seem like the best things going; the selection is just very limited and the prices are high.



First off, the CP.2 Super speeds aren't even available until October 14th, so how you're qualified to say the Samyangs outperform them is beyond me. Maybe you're talking about the older Super Speeds, but that would be just as ridiculous. And are you seriously trying to say that the Samyang outperforms (as in are better than) $20,000+ Cooke Primes? Are you out of your mind or just joking? 

I mean don't get me wrong, they're great for the money and if you're on a budget, but you're giving them way, way, way, way too much credit. Yes, the Samyang 35 is comparable to the 35L in terms of performance, but that's the exception, the rest of the Samyangs have gotten pretty mediocre reviews. So let's say he does get the Samyang 35, what about every other focal length? 

How you can slam Cooke's and Zeiss CP.2's yet be cool with the Canon's are beyond me, since the Canon Cine's aren't even available, how do you have any idea how they perform? 

And OP was clearly interested in the Canon Cine's and the CP.2's, I suggested the Duclos modded ZF.2's which are reasonably priced cinema lenses. But if a guy says he wants a Lamborghini and you think it's too much, try talking him down to a Corvette or something first, not a Geo Metro.


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## billybob (Sep 1, 2012)

This is helping refine my understanding and inclination, so thanks everyone.

Definitely gravitating towards the Duclos Mods, even if Duclos were non-committal when I inquired about compatibility with the 1DC - although their stated reason was merely that they're unfamiliar with this new model. 

My sense is the Duclos set of 5 is compatible with the 1DC and it's great you guys are backing that up. Budget for glass is around 10K, by the way, but would rather get 1 or 2 high quality lenses than 5 mediocre ones. I am moving towards the Duclos mods because my gut is telling me they will perform to the same level as Canon's new cine primes, as far as my eye is concerned at least.

Question - which of the five has the most shallow depth of field?


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## billybob (Sep 1, 2012)

Actually, I've just been advised that the Duclos 11-16 is not meant for even APS-H sensor, so for filming at 4K, it will vignette at 11mm and should improve when you are go towards 16mm - also that the Zeiss CP.2 s are also not meant for APS-H (1.3 crop factor as in the 1D Mark IV ). They are meant for the 1.6 crop factor 7D and other cameras. So Those should also vignette when you are filming at 4K on the 1DC....

Aaaaargh!

;D


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## Policar (Sep 1, 2012)

Axilrod said:


> Policar said:
> 
> 
> > They're comparable to the Canon L equivalents (well, the 35mm outperforms the 35mm L wide open and the others are not far behind) and, in my experience, they outperform the Cooke S4s and Zeiss Superspeeds as well in terms of sharpness and micro contrast wide open. Granted the mechanics and "look" are worse, but just because you CAN spend more money doesn't mean you need to, especially when the rest of a decent package (tripod, camera support, matte box, filters) can add up so fast. I know a lot of Scarlet users are using these lenses, and that's the same price range (though I'd much prefer the 1DC!).
> ...



What are you talking about? Super speeds are all time classics. I am referring to the Mark IIIs. They're super35 only, of course. They are a bit older (1980s and 1970s) but still command $35,000 used for a a good set. Divisive lenses due to bokeh, harshness, coma wide open, and poor close focus but they are my favorite cinema lenses in some respects...so small and fast. But not as sharp as the Samyang 35mm! I am also dead serious that this lens is as sharp if not sharper than the Cooke S4 primes, but the Cookes have a beautiful dreamy effect (that actually reduces resolution) and gorgeous bokeh and no breathing--all I'm saying is, resolution isn't everything!

Fwiw, I have the 85mm Samyang and it's pretty close to the best of the best fast 85mms. There's a bit less resolution, but micro-contrast is still excellent and bokeh is fine. Build quality is just okay, but your comparison is ridiculous. Maybe MPs to kit lenses is Lambo to Metro, but MPs don't even cover APS-H reliably (though they are probably fine from 14mm+)....this is more like Benz to Bentley...you pay for fit and finish, performance is better but with diminishing returns.... Worth it to some, of course, but diminishing returns is key and performance and utility wise they are in the same category as the CPs. Not MPs or Cookes, of course, though performance is surprisingly close in terms of sharpness alone. If you put a high end cinema lens on a still camera and shot it against still glass I think you would be surprised--performance is not that much better. The reduction in breathing is something, but the CPs breathe a bit and aren't even true cinema lenses. (Which aren't really options for the 1DC, anyway, because of its oversized sensor.)

Canon cinema lenses haven roughly the same designs as their L lenses except better coatings and different aperture blades and build quality is better...so speculating on their quality is easy and they will trump the CPs for the price. 24mm f1.4 II is a great lens and I can't imagine the Zeiss lenses are worth it by comparison when price is taken into account. They are pretty sharp but slow for the money and the super speed CPs should be expensive for a $10,000 kit. Modified ZE lenses seem like a better idea, but again performance won't beat Samyang or Canon to a field significant extent. (Canon L is a bad choice, though, only since there are no hard focus stops!). Zeiss lenses do have nice coatings and good micro-contrast and flare control, so that is worth something. Whatever you can afford is best, though--having the right focal lengths, filters, and useable mechanics is 1000X more important than a little resolution at stops you will almost never use--who shoots wide open (except David Fincher) and gets away with it? t2.8-t5.6 are the stops that count--all these lenses will be great at those stops.

The 11-16mm will be fine if you don't mind soft corners with a little CA and zooming in to 14mm or so before using it. It works great on the Epic, usable with major vignetting even at 11mm, and kind of works at 16mm on full frame. I wouldn't recommend it if you can afford better, but I wouldn't recommend the 17-40mm f4 L, either, which is optically poor. These are extreme UWA focal lengths of course, cool for music videos and cramped locations but not classically useful.

Btw, a normal cinema kit needs to cover the 18-85mm on super35 (approx 24-110mm on APS-H) range and then wider or tighter or zooms as needed for the specific project...no one wants one or two good lenses if they don't have the proper focal lengths and in terms of IQ you will not be able to detect a difference between any of these lenses at normal stops. You are paying for build quality; yes it is worth it but not to the exclusion of having the right focal lengths. It is worth it if you plan to rent, though. A Zeiss CP kit with appropriate focal lengths will rent over the alternatives, I would wager, because of the name recognition, important to less experienced shooters who don't realize they're just expensive Cosinas, not that there is anything wrong with that.

Also get a full complement of NDs: .3 .6 .9 1.2 1.5, a polarizer, a set of diffusion filters if you can afford it, a .6ND hard, soft, and attenuator, a follow focus (not cheap) with whip, and tripod of course...


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## Policar (Sep 1, 2012)

Also, although the site is full of absolute garbage information for the most part, the lens section of reduser.com has some good info on affordable high quality glass.

Fwiw, I really love the MF Nikkors and they have hard stops and good focus throws and are almost free (of course you need adapters, which are a pain). The 105mm f2.5 is a gem so you can put together a great full kit, but... The 24mm f2 is garbage (I think the 24mm f2.8 is better, but maybe not much and it's slow; the 28mm f2 has spherical aberration wide open but is otherwise excellent), though so the wide end becomes tricky. For a "vintage" look these lenses are amazing, though, and so inexpensive.

Another option is the 24-70mm and 70-200mm zooms, but then you have issues with pulling focus.


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## billybob (Sep 2, 2012)

Sorry, I just realised the 11-16 that might vignette is not in the Duclos package and the entire package should work in 4k mode.

It does seem a better option than one or two lenses, to get five if they are going to match the quality to my eye...


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## eyeland (Feb 14, 2013)

I have some considerations similar to the OP - Should I necro this thread or start a new? Guess I'll try to revive it as it already contains a host of valuable advice.
Anyways, I have been offered to shoot a travel/nature/lifestyle pilot (and much more if the pilot goes well) on a 1DC for an upcoming 4K content production house, and I will be partly responsible for putting the kit together along with the boss  
Initially, he thought he'd be able to get one do-it-all-zoom, but I have warned him that he WILL need several pieces of glass, and that the canon cine zooms are too expensive for our budget so far (and too heavy to e versatile enough for our trips.)
We are starting small and building from there, so I need a little advice on lenses. We will be shooting alot outdoors (desserts, rain-forest, underwater housing, stabilized aerials) so I think we need a rugged kit  
As mentioned, the Cine-zooms are above budget. I would love to go straight for a full prime-kit such as the Duclos, but firstly, we might need to start even simpler than that, and secondly, I think that we might really need a zoom lens or 2 for certain scenarios.
In the end, we might rent glas for the pilot, but the questions remain the same.
Does it make sense to start out with a 24-70II and a few cheap primes for the Pilot?
Also, are the canon cine primes worth the premium over eg. the Duclos set?
Whats the best way to go for landscape beauty shots?
I assume that 16-35L is sub par?
Canons recent non-L primes with IS (for the occasional semi-candid hand-helds) look very nice, but I think we will need the build and sealing of the L/Cine. How are the Duclos in terms of sealing?
I am yet unsure the extend to which de-clicking and gears will be needed.

Ps. I know these are enough questions for several threads, and I might be overly enthusiastic atm but cut me some slack, I just got one step closer to my dream job, "70,000 fathoms deep"  .
 This pilot is a big thing for me and I really want to do everything I can to make run smoothly so I can stay and grow with the job (and the cam. (just thinking about the 1DC with a set of Zeiss primes makes me all warm and fuzzy inside)


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## brad goda (Feb 15, 2013)

I think more important to consider is what rig you are using for your set up... focus pulling... T adjust
the EF and ZF lenses are good.. but NOT cinema lenses... focus racking and seamless T adjustments are made way different on Canon cinema and Zeiss CP.2

yes any or most lenses will be good... but what kind of mechanics will your film making require.
there will be many adaptations you will have to make to make EF lenses fit matte boxes and rigs...


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## eyeland (Feb 15, 2013)

brad goda said:


> I think more important to consider is what rig you are using for your set up... focus pulling... T adjust (...) yes any or most lenses will be good... but what kind of mechanics will your film making require. there will be many adaptations you will have to make to make EF lenses fit matte boxes and rigs...


I understand this and I realize that my post was very vague.
To begin with, we're doing a very crude setup for the pilot (its just a 2-3 day shoot), I will mostly be doing landscape beauty-shots (big panoramas and star-timelapse), so I think we might do the first shoot without any real rig. Probably a nice tripod, a merlin glide and a simple slider. Maybe a very simple follow-focus, but this is not even certain. In future shoots, (if all goes well) we'd be going much more cinematic, eg. more narrative shots, more characters and much more focus pulling. 
Maybe I should distinguish between questions that have to with optical qualities and questions pertaining to ergonomics and other non optical considerations. 




brad goda said:


> the EF and ZF lenses are good.. but NOT cinema lenses... focus racking and seamless T adjustments are made way different on Canon cinema and Zeiss CP.2



I don't understand what you mean by this? 

From what it looks like today, we might start off with one or two zooms and a few primes. I assume that eg. 24-70II+70-200 2.8II is a sturdy combo, but what if we want to go wider than that? 
From an optical standpoint, are there any L-glass that you would NOT recommend using for 4K?


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