# APS-C Canon EOS R body likely [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 9, 2018)

> A good source has chimed in on the possibility of a Canon EOS R body with an APS-C sensor.
> In a recent interview, a Canon executive made a comment about the EOS M and EOS R systems, saying (google translated) “Since EOS R is a full-size system, it can not be downsized to EOS M size. EOS M has a role/existence value as an APS-C system.”
> A few sites took that to mean that there would be no APS-C sensor equipped EOS R body. We took it to mean that they cannot shrink the RF mount and the ergonomics needed for a “prosumer/professional” camera to the EOS M size of a camera and that a compact APS-C system like the EOS M would continue to exist for the foreseeable future.
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## jeanluc (Nov 9, 2018)

A different spin, but what are your sources saying about a 5dsr replacement? Many here seem to feel thatis also overdue.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 9, 2018)

jeanluc said:


> A different spin, but what are your sources saying about a 5dsr replacement? Many here seem to feel thatis also overdue.



The signs are pointing to an EOS R replacement instead of a Mark II version. This should come into focus in the next month or two.


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## YuengLinger (Nov 9, 2018)

This makes so much sense in terms of moving mirrorless to the forefront, focusing resources for engineering, production, and marketing.

But where does that leave the M series? A just slightly smaller alternative? With the size and flexibility of the 80D, I've never been tempted by the M's. Speaking only for myself, of course.


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## zim (Nov 9, 2018)

_"Why do we believe this? The EOS 7D series of cameras. If EOS R and the RF mount as the future for Canon, which I think most people they are. There is no way that the hugely popular EOS 7D series of cameras is going to be cancelled or just remain a DSLR"_

Not 'If' but 'When' The only thing that they could technically do (ignoring price) is put a crop mode into the FFs which increased FPS when engaged, I'd love that but Canon have shown no signs of going in that direction.


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## BeenThere (Nov 9, 2018)

More confirmation that we are transitioning from EF to RF. Guessing that transition is complete in 3-5 years.


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## zim (Nov 9, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> This makes so much sense in terms of moving mirrorless to the forefront, focusing resources for engineering, production, and marketing.
> 
> But where does that leave the M series? A just slightly smaller alternative? With the size and flexibility of the 80D, I've never been tempted by the M's. Speaking only for myself, of course.



I think the M line stands on its own, small/light mass market appeal good value/quality. APS-C on the R is more about the 7D brigade, robust, weather resistant, L glass users looking for reach at a more affordable price point than FF equivalent. The possibility that some specs on say a m5II may be the same or even better on paper than an APS-C R (fps for example) doesn't mean it's a superior camera for the job. The reverse is also true and an APS-C R would not make the M line redundant.


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## mirage (Nov 9, 2018)

Hopefully Canon brings a really excellent "flagship M" ... EOS M5 II or "M7" soon. It should be a "mirrorfree 7D III" and a veritable Fuji XT-3/Nikon D-500 II killer ... at around 1499. EOS "R6" entry level could then come at 1699. 

That would sort things out nicely and end all speculation regarding future: 
* EOS M = APS-C (from entry level to hi-end)
* EOS R = FF sensor (with crop mode)


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## Random Orbits (Nov 9, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> This makes so much sense in terms of moving mirrorless to the forefront, focusing resources for engineering, production, and marketing.
> 
> But where does that leave the M series? A just slightly smaller alternative? With the size and flexibility of the 80D, I've never been tempted by the M's. Speaking only for myself, of course.



The M takes the place of the powershot series, so it can remain its own system. However, as EF transitions to R, the M series will need a few more lenses because people will not be buying EF lenses anymore, and M can not take RF lenses.

I have both FF EF and the M system. I choose the M when portability is the most important criteria (areas restricting "pro" like cameras). For everything else, its EF.


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## Random Orbits (Nov 9, 2018)

mirage said:


> Hopefully Canon brings a really excellent "flagship M" ... EOS M5 II or "M7" soon. It should be a "mirrorfree 7D III" and a veritable Fuji XT-3/Nikon D-500 II killer ... at around 1499. EOS "R6" entry level could then come at 1699.
> 
> That would sort things out nicely and end all speculation regarding future:
> * EOS M = APS-C (from entry level to hi-end)
> * EOS R = FF sensor (with crop mode)



That makes no sense. Why would Canon produce a second series of "L" lenses for the M ecosystem when portability is the M's advantage. It makes for sense for a APS-C R mount. Then Canon can produce a few consumer zooms/primes for APS-C and the users that want better lenses can use RF natively.


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## lwan (Nov 9, 2018)

what makes no sense is that in an interview when asked if there would be an APS-C body with the R mount canon THEMSELVES said no. So what is going on either at canon or with the "sources"


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## Daner (Nov 9, 2018)

I have a 7D Mk II and a selection of appropriate glass for it. I would like a replacement that will allow me to use my current lenses and retains the interface features, durability, and weather-resistance of my current camera, but I would appreciate a bit more dynamic range, a touch-screen, and eye-detect AF. I sometimes miss the flippy screen from my old 70D, but I can live without that if need be. If it will be mirrorless, I will need equivalent battery life for my use cases. If that means that I need to invest in a battery grip, so be it. If that opens up the world of RF lenses, so much the better, but I am more concerned about D500 focus performance and image quality envy than I am about whether Canon's replacement for my 7D Mk II is mirrorless or not.


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## TMHKR (Nov 9, 2018)

mirage said:


> * EOS R = FF sensor (with crop mode)



Unlikely, since not everyone would be able to afford it, which defeats the purpose of EF-S glass.


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## canonmike (Nov 9, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> This makes so much sense in terms of moving mirrorless to the forefront, focusing resources for engineering, production, and marketing.
> 
> But where does that leave the M series? A just slightly smaller alternative? With the size and flexibility of the 80D, I've never been tempted by the M's. Speaking only for myself, of course.


I felt the same way until I got tired of lugging my heavy 7d around while hiking the mountain trails for miles. After watching several reviews and YT videos, I decided, mostly because of its compact size and capabilities, to try an M50 and see if it might be a good fit for me. Well, I have to say, that while not a perfect camera, it's a perfect camera for the trail, lack of weather sealing not withstanding. Peak Designs Capture clip is the perfect compliment to the M50, allowing easy access to immediate photo ops, via attachment to my pack strap. An added bonus is crisp sharp photos and very usable video, both being somewhat better than what my 7D was producing for me, not to mention the fantastic small form factor, a real plus on the trail, where size and weight constraints are everything. So, as your last statement pointed out, it's all in your perspective. Like you, until I started using the M50, I had never given the M series a second glance. Now, I see why the line has such a following. It's time to now give my bruised and battered 7D a well deserved rest. While a good camera, the new EOS R is just too big for me on the trail, while carrying so much other gear.


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## YuengLinger (Nov 9, 2018)

TMHKR said:


> Unlikely, since not everyone would be able to afford it, which defeats the purpose of EF-S glass.


But what would the new mount be called? RF-S?


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## josephandrews222 (Nov 9, 2018)

The APS-C camera with an 'R' mount...will it have its own family of lenses?

Something about this just doesn't quite seem right to me...

As I've posted previously, those who felt/hoped/believed that Canon's first full-frame mirrorless body would utilize the EF mount...I believe their thoughts were from their hearts and not their brains.

Here, too...I'm getting the same vibe.

The EF-S series of lenses (of which I own a couple)...presumably...would function on this rumored APS-C/R body only with an adapter?!

That doesn't make sense to me.

So will there be a whole new family of lenses?

A 17-55 2.8 IS ER-S?

That just doesn't make sense, at least to me.

What works, in my mind, is a bare-bones (full-frame) R mount starter camera, with the least expensive 28-70 R-mount lens that can be built.

Build it (price it right)...and they will come.


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## BrightTiger (Nov 9, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> But where does that leave the M series? A just slightly smaller alternative? With the size and flexibility of the 80D, I've never been tempted by the M's. Speaking only for myself, of course.



The M series is the portable line, as a couple of manufacturers have/are doing. Sony has a clear semi-pro/pro, larger size line (a7) and an enthusiast/semi-pro portable line (aXXXX). Panasonic is basically going to follow this model with a larger FF announced and yet declaring intention to support their existing m4/3 line, among others.

The Canon M series has been extremely popular in Japan and is actually popular with certain niches elsewhere. It has a been a good development proving ground for their R system; it will continue to be used as a gateway drug for current smartphone and soccer parents, a good B-roll/back up system for pros, and a satisfying system for travelers and those seeking to downgrade to a smaller, inexpensive system with great IQ.
This is not to say this is unique to Canon. This appears to be approach by a number of companies, as stated previously.


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## Stig Nygaard (Nov 9, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> But what would the new mount be called? RF-S?



The camera would still have RF mount. As mentioned, the existing R camera already goes into crop mode when a crop lens is attached. But the lenses could be called RF-C or something (?). But who cares about the name? The important thing is that crop-sensors are significant cheaper than fullframe sensors, and that some lenses could be made lighter and more compact if designed for crop-mode on the R cameras.
I can easily imagine going APS-C mirrorless some day (I currently own a 7DII). But after the launch of the new fullframe mirrorless system from Canon, I can't ever imagine going the route of EOS-M. If I'm going to invest in mirrorless from Canon, it should be in a camera compatible with their most interesting and broad selection of lenses. That's not what the RF system is today, but that is the way I expect it to go...


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## mirage (Nov 9, 2018)

i don't think there will ever be R-mount crop lenses. 

i'd rather expect a slightly larger, higher-end M body to succeed 7D II.


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## Rumourhasit (Nov 9, 2018)

I used the Canon M5 as my travel camera and can’t wait to see what replaces it. I’ve never used M Glass with it. Preferring to use EFS lenses 10-18 and 18-135. These paired excellent with the M5. I bought the eosR to replace my 5DIII as it’s was hardly being used being so bulky and heavy I only used it with my bigger lenses as the 100-400 didn’t sit well on the M5. If canon can solution EFS glass replacement on the M5 II with an R type mount I’d be a happy man


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## jvillain (Nov 9, 2018)

lwan said:


> what makes no sense is that in an interview when asked if there would be an APS-C body with the R mount canon THEMSELVES said no. So what is going on either at canon or with the "sources"



What they actually said was that there would be no R mount on a M body. Some people then started extrapolating that because M is APS-C that meant no APS-C with R. Go read the interview. 

If Canon stuck an APS-C sensor in the R body I would buy one of each today. They would be completely different tools. But until I know for sure what the plan is for APS-C with an R mount I won't be buying ether. Canon sold a mountain of Rebels, Kiss, crop EOS etc cameras. Far more than they sold full frame cameras. Every one that bought one sized their lenses for for an APS-C sensor. To tell all those customers to throw all their equipment in the garbage and start over would be suicide. I would switch brands or quit photography before I would drop $20,000 -$30,000 to recreate my APS-C rig in FF.

An APS-C sensor with an R mount would not mean the end of FF cameras or the M system like some people seem to believe. A FF EOS R with a crop lens is around 11MP so can we please stop regurgitating that over and over again as the solution. It isn't.


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## josephandrews222 (Nov 9, 2018)

All EF-M lenses, to my knowledge, have a diameter of 60.9 mm.

My guess is that all future EF-M lenses will have that same diameter.

Why?

Volume and mass considerations, I would guess.

But there is no doubt that well-designed large volume/large mass lenses are better than small volume/small mass lenses, in terms of image quality.

That's why, whenever possible, I utilize Canon full-frame bodies and Canon full-frame lenses in my modest photography efforts.

Which leaves the rest of the time (particularly when traveling)--in which case Canon's M line of bodies and lenses *more *than fills the bill as far as supplying the necessary tools for me to screw up nice photo/video ops!

When I read posters who write that they'll 'never go M'...I kind of chuckle inside.

As my favorite sportstalk show host often says: "They don't know no better."

M bodies are so tiny, for extended trips I generally travel with three of them...each mated to one lens, each inside its own very small camera bag: the 22mm 2.0; the 11-22mm IS; and the 18-150mm IS.

Each of these camera/lens combinations resides nicely on what I believe is a small camcorder tripod...which weighs less than a pound and telescopes to less than 12 inches.

With the iOS Canon Connect app, and the tripod...we get instant family vacation pictures whenever I can get my daughters to sit for them...without asking for a stranger to help.

I am so wedded to using the M's while traveling that I kind of understand exactly how I use them, and how I won't. So as of yet I have not purchased the 32mm f1.4 EF-M lens--because for portraits I go back to full frame. I am tempted, though, by the f1.4...for low-light vacation/traveling photo opportunities (of which there are many). That's why the 22mm 2.0 is always there...and is it ever tiny and stealthy.

All of which makes me wonder about the reasonableness of APS-C and R mounts.

But who knows for sure?! It is all kind of fun.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 9, 2018)

In one of the recent interviews, Canon was asked about a APS-C version of the R. As I recall, he said that we are thinking about it. That to me means that at the very least, they are specifying a version, and pricing it to see if they can get the cost to build it down. In the total cost of a camera, the build cost is only a small part of what we pay, most of the other costs like distribution, service, training, advertising are fixed, so markup is less, and sales volume must be high. 

Using the same parts where possible cuts costs because of the higher volume, so that's desirable from a cost standpoint.

That does not mean that the M would go away at all. A strong market exists for a small body camera, it would be competing with high end point and shoot models like the G1 for sales.


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## docsmith (Nov 9, 2018)

mirage said:


> i don't think there will ever be R-mount crop lenses.
> 
> i'd rather expect a slightly larger, higher-end M body to succeed 7D II.


Well, if you start changing enough things, I suppose anything is possible. But, I consider a "higher end" M body to be unlikely. The simple reason is the entire M ecosystem is somewhere below "higher end" compared to the 7D, L series glass, etc. It would be odd to have a $1,800 M body and mount a $300 variable aperture general purpose lens on it. To get better glass to mount to your "higher end" M body, if it were released, you would have to use an adaptor, which just doesn't seem very higher end. So, unless Canon starts pushing out higher end EF-m lenses, I would not expect a higher end EFm body. 

For example, I own an M3, EVF, EFm 18-35, 11-22, 22, 28 macro and 55-200 lenses in my "M" kit. The whole thing cost me just over $2,000 (bought much of it on sale or refurbished). That is the M ecosystem. The EOS-R ecosystem will have single lenses that cost more than that.

So, it makes complete sense to have a R APS-C body that has a more powerful battery to drive the AF on expensive lenses that, eventually, will mount natively to the RF mount. 

This is all about price points of the different ecosystems. M is going to be small and moderately expensive. The R ecosystem is going to likely range from moderate to higher end.


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## nchoh (Nov 9, 2018)

lwan said:


> what makes no sense is that in an interview when asked if there would be an APS-C body with the R mount canon THEMSELVES said no. So what is going on either at canon or with the "sources"



I understood, from the first time I read the comment, the same as this CanonRumor... the R cannot be shrunk down to the M mount size did not preclude that R mount would not get an APS-C sensor. There is no contradiction.


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## LSXPhotog (Nov 9, 2018)

I would love to see a 7D level EOS R as well as a high resolution EOS R. Really looking forward to the future of the RF mount cameras.


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## brad-man (Nov 9, 2018)

lwan said:


> what makes no sense is that in an interview when asked if there would be an APS-C body with the R mount canon THEMSELVES said no. So what is going on either at canon or with the "sources"


You sir, are full of fertilizer. No Canon representative ever said any such thing. Even if that were their position, which I'm sure it isn't, they would not say so. Provide a link and prove me wrong...


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## Don Haines (Nov 9, 2018)

Personally, I think that there should be a few slow, but high quality R mount lenses. Slower lenses means smaller, and that helps a lot with the idea of having a portable system.....

Imagine this... you have a 24-70 F5.6 R mount lens, image circle covers a crop size sensor, and depending on the focal length and aperture, might cover a FF sensor.... A crop R mount camera gives you a great and compact package, but the lens is still usable on a FF R mount camera... kind of like what you could do now on EF and EF-S if the mirror did not hit...


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## Bob Howland (Nov 9, 2018)

jvillain said:


> What they actually said was that there would be no R mount on a M body.



What exactly does that mean? By definition, a camera with an R mount is an R body since it takes R lenses, FF or crop.


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## delta0 (Nov 9, 2018)

APS-C EOS R would be the 90D I expect. I’m very keen on this.


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## snappy604 (Nov 9, 2018)

canonmike said:


> I felt the same way until I got tired of lugging my heavy 7d around while hiking the mountain trails for miles. After watching several reviews and YT videos, I decided, mostly because of its compact size and capabilities, to try an M50 and see if it might be a good fit for me. Well, I have to say, that while not a perfect camera, it's a perfect camera for the trail, lack of weather sealing not withstanding. Peak Designs Capture clip is the perfect compliment to the M50, allowing easy access to immediate photo ops, via attachment to my pack strap. An added bonus is crisp sharp photos and very usable video, both being somewhat better than what my 7D was producing for me, not to mention the fantastic small form factor, a real plus on the trail, where size and weight constraints are everything. So, as your last statement pointed out, it's all in your perspective. Like you, until I started using the M50, I had never given the M series a second glance. Now, I see why the line has such a following. It's time to now give my bruised and battered 7D a well deserved rest. While a good camera, the new EOS R is just too big for me on the trail, while carrying so much other gear.




tell me about it.. loved the 7D.. built like a tank.. and as heavy. Used to lug a kid on my back, my 7D and 400mm + 17-55mm 2.8 on trails when I first got it, sigh.. not so easy now. I really notice weight now too.

its one of the things I was intrigued about the EOS R.. that it can use Crop... wondering if it improves performance (FPS) for a smaller image.


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## snappy604 (Nov 9, 2018)

jvillain said:


> What they actually said was that there would be no R mount on a M body. Some people then started extrapolating that because M is APS-C that meant no APS-C with R. Go read the interview.
> 
> If Canon stuck an APS-C sensor in the R body I would buy one of each today. They would be completely different tools. But until I know for sure what the plan is for APS-C with an R mount I won't be buying ether. Canon sold a mountain of Rebels, Kiss, crop EOS etc cameras. Far more than they sold full frame cameras. Every one that bought one sized their lenses for for an APS-C sensor. To tell all those customers to throw all their equipment in the garbage and start over would be suicide. I would switch brands or quit photography before I would drop $20,000 -$30,000 to recreate my APS-C rig in FF.
> 
> An APS-C sensor with an R mount would not mean the end of FF cameras or the M system like some people seem to believe. A FF EOS R with a crop lens is around 11MP so can we please stop regurgitating that over and over again as the solution. It isn't.




I was under impression EOS R can shoot with EF-S lenses with the normal adapter. Just shoots differently (smaller image?)


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## Memirsbrunnr (Nov 9, 2018)

I want a 7D replacement, and if possible on a R series body, the M50 is too small and cumbersome holding. That does not mean I would love to own a travel camera based on m50 but shooting birds on an M50?? I think not


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## padam (Nov 9, 2018)

delta0 said:


> APS-C EOS R would be the 90D I expect. I’m very keen on this.


It has already been confirmed that the 90D will be a DSLR camera.
https://www.canonrumors.com/breaking-down-the-latest-canon-gear-to-appear-for-certification/


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## delta0 (Nov 9, 2018)

padam said:


> It has already been confirmed that the 90D will be a DSLR camera.
> https://www.canonrumors.com/breaking-down-the-latest-canon-gear-to-appear-for-certification/


I don’t think that is definitive as the code for the certification has been estimated for the camera model. With APS-C the frame rate will be higher but I do not see it being at a 7D level yet so if it is not the 90D I expect it will be an equivalent performance-wise. There are two Canon new EOS-R cameras coming with one lower spec and one higher spec.


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## Adelino (Nov 9, 2018)

jvillain said:


> What they actually said was that there would be no R mount on a M body. Some people then started extrapolating that because M is APS-C that meant no APS-C with R. Go read the interview.
> 
> If Canon stuck an APS-C sensor in the R body I would buy one of each today. They would be completely different tools. But until I know for sure what the plan is for APS-C with an R mount I won't be buying ether. Canon sold a mountain of Rebels, Kiss, crop EOS etc cameras. Far more than they sold full frame cameras. Every one that bought one sized their lenses for for an APS-C sensor. To tell all those customers to throw all their equipment in the garbage and start over would be suicide. I would switch brands or quit photography before I would drop $20,000 -$30,000 to recreate my APS-C rig in FF.
> 
> An APS-C sensor with an R mount would not mean the end of FF cameras or the M system like some people seem to believe. A FF EOS R with a crop lens is around 11MP so can we please stop regurgitating that over and over again as the solution. It isn't.


Good point. In addition, a lot (the majority?) of those Rebel owners do not have to replace 20k in lenses, they have less than one k, but to that level of user it would feel like 20k, for their usage. Canon really doesn't want to piss off the Rebel crowd, Canon sells TONS of EFS cameras.


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## LensFungus (Nov 9, 2018)

jeanluc said:


> A different spin, but what are your sources saying about a 5dsr replacement? Many here seem to feel thatis also overdue.


In my opinion the release of one of these two (Canon 5DSR II and a mirrorless 5SDR version) will delay the other one by at least 6 months. Canon knows if the release dates are too close the products will hurt each other sales, since they will be most likely similiar priced.

Would it be about time to release the Canon EOS 5DSR Mark II? Yes. But the problem for the people who want this camera is, that Canon will remain numero uno in DSLR sales with or without the 5DSR Mark II. It's a different situation with a mirrorless version of that camera. While we can argue all day what Canon thinks about the Sony A7R Mark III competition- and saleswise, it should be clear that answering to the release of Nikon's version, the Nikon Z7, enjoys a higher priority for Canon.


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## canonmike (Nov 9, 2018)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> I want a 7D replacement, and if possible on a R series body, the M50 is too small and cumbersome holding. That does not mean I would love to own a travel camera based on m50 but shooting birds on an M50?? I think not


You are almost right. Actually, it is smaller than small but I've gotten used to it, after my initial observation of it looking like a toy camera + I can still use my EF lenses via the adapter. It just works for me and it's all I need on the trail.


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2018)

I move from 40D to M50. I have never feel that the M50 is too small and cumbersome to hold. In fact, I feel very comfortable holding the M50 with EF 28-135 with adapter.


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## Architect1776 (Nov 9, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



At this point when I change I will go FF in the R series. Keep my 7D and then for a compact ILC go with the M system that will still use my EF lenses 100%. But a M5 MII with an 18-150mm and an 11-22mm would be a sweet little hiking camera setup that I would add the heavy 100-400mm as an incase lens if I felt like I wanted to carry a truly long lens unless the M series comes out with a sweet 200-400mm compact lens.
But for many the APSC R would be a great addition like the 7D currently is in the EF line up. I would say Canon needs to drop the EF system as quickly as they can do a similar RF camera and provide a wider array of RF lenses. I see this next year to see some pretty incredible stuff come out with all the lens patents that have been made for a couple of years now.


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## Architect1776 (Nov 9, 2018)

zim said:


> _"Why do we believe this? The EOS 7D series of cameras. If EOS R and the RF mount as the future for Canon, which I think most people they are. There is no way that the hugely popular EOS 7D series of cameras is going to be cancelled or just remain a DSLR"_
> 
> Not 'If' but 'When' The only thing that they could technically do (ignoring price) is put a crop mode into the FFs which increased FPS when engaged, I'd love that but Canon have shown no signs of going in that direction.



The current R has a crop mode seeing as it uses the EF-S lenses as well.


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## noncho (Nov 9, 2018)

7D successor for EOS R... Why not APS-H?


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## lwan (Nov 9, 2018)

brad-man said:


> You sir, are full of fertilizer. No Canon representative ever said any such thing. Even if that were their position, which I'm sure it isn't, they would not say so. Provide a link and prove me wrong...


While you can remain polite, I checked the website again (canonwatch). I think the canonwatch article couldn't have been interpreted differently than "no APS-C EOS R system". So I looked up myself the original article. There it's a whole different story and the question asked is clearly not what was hinted by canonwatch, so it was misleading. So my apologizes I was wrong. Anyway, rumors websites are what they are..


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## mirage (Nov 9, 2018)

to me it is clear. Canon is basically saying in a more veiled way: "forget it. there will be no APS-C EOS R because it simply would not make much sense. It could not be made small enough with R mount. So, if you want crop, fine - we have EOS M and EF-M lenses for you. EOS R will be FF, and if you want, use the built-in crop mode. Now suit yourselves".


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## delta0 (Nov 9, 2018)

mirage said:


> to me it is clear. Canon is basically saying in a more veiled way: "forget it. there will be no APS-C EOS R because it simply would not make much sense. It could not be made small enough with R mount. So, if you want crop, fine - we have EOS M and EF-M lenses for you. EOS R will be FF, and if you want, use the built-in crop mode. Now suit yourselves".


To me EOS M would be a step down and really doesn’t suit my lenses. Owning Ef-s and EF lenses I want a semi professional/enthusiast body but manageable lens costs. I won’t be investing in EOS M and would prefer to transition to R and the lens on offer there. I feel there would be a significant gap. It is ok if it is a full frame sensor but the price needs to be down around the £700-1k range. If Canon leave this gap then the Nikon z5 gets really tempting.


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## dak723 (Nov 9, 2018)

Neither Canon nor anyone else knows what the consumers will decide in regards to mirrorless and DSLR sales. So it seems likely that they will throw everything they can out there and see what sticks, so to speak. So I would expect an APS-C R camera or two to be made - in line with the XXD and XD series. Existing EF-S lens owners will be able to use the adapters to keep them happy.

RF-S lenses may be another question. Perhaps they will all be RF (not RF-S) but with focal lengths that translate well to the crop factor.


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## neonlight (Nov 9, 2018)

If that was from the Googl translation it is not a certain conclusion. As the R system can take EF-S lenses which will create an APS-C image size, there is nothing to say that an APS-C sensor cannot be used in an R body. All I take from the canon exec interview is that M and R are not compatible. To me that means M is a low cost mirrorless, does not exclude APS-C R.


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## Don Haines (Nov 9, 2018)

mirage said:


> to me it is clear. Canon is basically saying in a more veiled way: "forget it. there will be no APS-C EOS R because it simply would not make much sense. It could not be made small enough with R mount. So, if you want crop, fine - we have EOS M and EF-M lenses for you. EOS R will be FF, and if you want, use the built-in crop mode. Now suit yourselves".


Why can't you make a lower cost lens for the R mount that has a smaller image circle?


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## zim (Nov 9, 2018)

mirage said:


> i don't think there will ever be R-mount crop lenses.
> 
> i'd rather expect a slightly larger, higher-end M body to succeed 7D II.



absolutely agree on the first part not convinced on the second though, I see it as a variant of the R line, why not just use the same body and mount after all that's what the did with the 7d


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## zim (Nov 10, 2018)

Architect1776 said:


> The current R has a crop mode seeing as it uses the EF-S lenses as well.



yes but a 'really right' crop mode would also give added fps, that's my point


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## Otara (Nov 10, 2018)

I cant see the point of a 7D III in EF-M mount. I think it would pretty much have to be R, unless they plan to actively support EF.


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## Don Haines (Nov 10, 2018)

Otara said:


> I cant see the point of a 7D III in EF-M mount. I think it would pretty much have to be R, unless they plan to actively support EF.


I agree.

The 7D and 7D2 are about three things. A good AF system, great ergonomics, and the best in robustness.


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## Otara (Nov 10, 2018)

And also ability to use full-frame lenses like the 100-400mm. If they brought out an R 100-400mm and I couldnt use it, I would be irked. 

For a 7D III to be a good idea in EF-M, you'd want to see native lenses to match, which almost certainly isnt going to happen.


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## djack41 (Nov 10, 2018)

Canon will have to prove it is capable of building a mirrorless flagship with exceptional AF and frame rate to rival the Sony A9. I have my doubts. Canon has considerable ground to make up and may be embarrassed by the competition.


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## Marius Schamschula (Nov 10, 2018)

My M5, with the EF-M 18-150 IS STM is for travel. Otherwise I use the M5 with the mount adaptor as a second body to complement the 7D. I'm watching this space to see what Canon's solution to the 7D mark II replacement is. The M5 can't handle shooting a burst and storing both RAW and JPEG to the memory card the same rate my old 7D can. If there is a 7D mark III or a R body capable of high frame rates, I'll be looking to upgrade.


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## [email protected] (Nov 10, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> I agree.
> 
> The 7D and 7D2 are about three things. A good AF system, great ergonomics, and the best in robustness.



And, most importantly to me, high frame rate.


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## tron (Nov 10, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The signs are pointing to an EOS R replacement instead of a Mark II version. This should come into focus in the next month or two.


Yes the EOS R must be replaced! It has a single card, it's AF tracking in servo is almost non-existent (dropping from 5 to 3fps for Focus priority) and ... it lacks a mirror!


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## jvillain (Nov 10, 2018)

snappy604 said:


> I was under impression EOS R can shoot with EF-S lenses with the normal adapter. Just shoots differently (smaller image?)



As stated earlier because your down to 11MP in crop mode on the R. I didn't buy lenses capable of 50MP resolution to then shoot 11MP images. I would probably be better off shooting with my cell phone and cropping instead of zooming at that point.


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## jvillain (Nov 10, 2018)

Nice one Tron



padam said:


> It has already been confirmed that the 90D will be a DSLR camera.
> https://www.canonrumors.com/breaking-down-the-latest-canon-gear-to-appear-for-certification/



If they bring a 90D and I think they will. It will be interesting to see what is new in it. If it is just upgraded to the 77D sensor and and has a new name tag and thats it, then you can stick a fork in the APS-C slapper line.


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## herion (Nov 10, 2018)

djack41 said:


> Canon will have to prove it is capable of building a mirrorless flagship with exceptional AF and frame rate to rival the Sony A9. I have my doubts. Canon has considerable ground to make up and may be embarrassed by the competition.



I'd say a good bit but not considerable. Dual Digic 8's can add a lot of horsepower - even a Digic 8 and a Digic 7 could add a lot. I'd say the elephant in the room is the BSI processor. I don't know if BSI technology and dual-pixel autofocus are mutually exclusive - are they?


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## Architect1776 (Nov 10, 2018)

zim said:


> yes but a 'really right' crop mode would also give added fps, that's my point



Perhaps it will. The R is only the first iteration and likely helping inform Canon as to future developments.


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## Bundu (Nov 10, 2018)

LSXPhotog said:


> I would love to see a 7D level EOS R as well as a high resolution EOS R. Really looking forward to the future of the RF mount cameras.


The jackpot for me personally would be the two combined. High fps crop mode (20mp) and 50mp full frame. With a 1.3 crop in between! I love my 7dii but many times I had to switch to the 6dii (now replaced by the R) early morning or late afternoon when the light was bad. It is not an action camera! But I could still get some shots, better than none with the 7dii. The 6dii I used for astro, mackro, landscapes etc. The flippy screen I could not live without, hence the 6dii and not 5div (wich i tried for a while). So if I could have those two bodies in one...... win win win for me. Did not use the R much but already love it.


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## Talys (Nov 10, 2018)

tron said:


> Yes the EOS R must be replaced! It has a single card, it's AF tracking in servo is almost non-existent (dropping from 5 to 3fps for Focus priority) and ... it lacks a mirror!



I would love an EOS R with an optical viewfinder, and a mode dial 

Or, even better, Canon could just sell me a 5D4 with a flippy screen, which is what I've really wanted since like, the day 5D4 came out


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## Memirsbrunnr (Nov 10, 2018)

Talys said:


> I would love an EOS R with an optical viewfinder, and a mode dial
> 
> Or, even better, Canon could just sell me a 5D4 with a flippy screen, which is what I've really wanted since like, the day 5D4 came out


So a 5D5 should be 5D4 tilty flippy version?


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## wyotex43n (Nov 10, 2018)

I think one of the big drivers for Canon is their huge user base of lenses. Two lines the EF-S lenses and the EF lenses. 
1. If they look at the users of their crop sensor cameras I would bet the large majority use EF-S lenses. So the M mount offers them a mirrorless path to keep there EF-S lenses. 
2. But there is also a sizable group of crop sensor users ( 7d family for example ) that use EF lenses along with EF-S lenses. The R mounts offers these users a mirrorless path. Sure its lower res but you don't have to throw away your investment in EF-S. What Canon has to decide is this group large enough to justify a crop sensor in an R mount. ie. a prosumer mirrorless 7d m2 . Other factors will also enter into this such as battery life and others. 

The M mount is for the masses and to compete with M4/3 and Fuji. The R for the Pros and serious amateurs. I think Canon have decided its takes two mounts but wanted to provide a path for both.


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## padam (Nov 10, 2018)

wyotex43n said:


> I think one of the big drivers for Canon is their huge user base of lenses. Two lines the EF-S lenses and the EF lenses.
> 1. If they look at the users of their crop sensor cameras I would bet the large majority use EF-S lenses. So the M mount offers them a mirrorless path to keep there EF-S lenses.
> 2. But there is also a sizable group of crop sensor users ( 7d family for example ) that use EF lenses along with EF-S lenses. The R mounts offers these users a mirrorless path. Sure its lower res but you don't have to throw away your investment in EF-S. What Canon has to decide is this group large enough to justify a crop sensor in an R mount. ie. a prosumer mirrorless 7d m2 . Other factors will also enter into this such as battery life and others.
> 
> The M mount is for the masses and to compete with M4/3 and Fuji. The R for the Pros and serious amateurs. I think Canon have decided its takes two mounts but wanted to provide a path for both.


If the EOS R didn't have the 1.8x 4k crop, then they wouldn't even bother recommending to mount EF-S lenses (a handful or cheaper FF glass is available). I think what we have is mix-up between rumors, while I think a more video-focused XC-like RF-mount camera is a real possibility (earlier it was rumoured to be EF, but why would they do it like that now) and it might be able to take still images.
I just don't see an APS-C RF-mount stills camera at this time, basically throwing everything that they've did with the design of the RF-mount out of the door, no dedicated glass at all, and also making in-house competition to an M5 Mark II, just doesn't make much sense. Nikon doesn't even have a crop sensor mirrorless system at this time, and yet it still doesn't make much sense for them for the same reason (for the time being, of course).


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## memoriaphoto (Nov 10, 2018)

18-50/1.8


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## Stig Nygaard (Nov 10, 2018)

mirage said:


> to me it is clear. Canon is basically saying in a more veiled way: "forget it. there will be no APS-C EOS R because it simply would not make much sense. It could not be made small enough with R mount. So, if you want crop, fine - we have EOS M and EF-M lenses for you. EOS R will be FF, and if you want, use the built-in crop mode. Now suit yourselves".



Well, R mount is same size as the EF mount. And the EF mount has both fullframe and popular APS-C DSLR cameras.


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## mirage (Nov 10, 2018)

i don't see a "7D class EOS R with crop sensor" but expect Canon to keep EOS R series "FF only". It is all about R mount, which would be "wasted on a crop sensor".

i expect 2 mirrorfree cameras launched in the direction of "80D / 7D owners":
A) "EOS R7" / FF / 1799 - same as 7D II launch price
B) "EOS M7" / APS-C / 1499 - same as Fuji XT3 launch price

*A) FF sensor "EOS R7" *
will also take EF and EF-S lenses with any of the 3 adapters and have a "true crop mode" with less MP but faster fps. Simply a question of CPU/DIGIC and firmware. No need to "physically hobble" R series with an APS-C sensor.

*B) APS-C sensor "EOS M7" *
some people seem to only think of "M50 size and performance", but it is just a lower tier model. Canon will also (have to) bring a new "higher end / flagship" EOS M model soon. M5 is urgently due for replacement - I don't think Canon is selling many M5 these days. It was "eaten alive" by better specced, lower priced, more compact M50. 

While more compact than EOS R new "top model M7" could have a slightly larger body than current M5 so it can fit strong LP-E6N power pack plus a somewhat bigger grip and a solid user interface with useful wheels, dials and buttons. For specs/performance just look at Fuji XT3. It beats 7D II and D500 nicely. 

* e.g. a APS-C sensor with eg 28 MP
* 12 fps without any small print limitations = full AF tracking and AE for every frame
* top notch DP-AF incl. eye tracking
* top notch EVF
* fully articulated screen
* wheathersealing in line with 7D II
* EF-M lenses natively, EF and EF-S via adapter [... not RF - for those Canon wants us to spend more money and buy EOS R  ];

"M7" would/will meet Fuji XT3 and upcoming new Sony crop MILCs - A7000/A6### head on. 


By offering A) plus B) Canon can effectively combat competition, strengthen both EOS R and EOS M product lines and nail the coffin shut for mirrorslapping EOS crop sensor cameras. No 90D, no 7D III. not needed any longer. M50 effectively killed xxD/Rebel slappers. "M7" will kill xxD and 7D class.


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## neonlight (Nov 10, 2018)

I suggest there will be an APS-C R body, which will likely replace the 7D series.


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## BillB (Nov 10, 2018)

There might be a niche for an aps-c with an R mount as an additional option for someone who working mostly or completely with FF R mount equipment. As has been pointed out, the crop on the EOS R is 11mp, considerably less than the 24mp which is the current aps-c standard. An aps-c with an R mount might even have a sensor above the 24mp level, as a stepping stone to a very high mp FF with an R mount.


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## wyotex43n (Nov 10, 2018)

mirage said:


> i don't see a "7D class EOS R with crop sensor" but expect Canon to keep EOS R series "FF only". It is all about R mount, which would be "wasted on a crop sensor".
> 
> i expect 2 mirrorfree cameras launched in the direction of "80D / 7D owners":
> A) "EOS R7" / FF / 1799 - same as 7D II launch price
> ...


My only issue with this approach is this. Canon would be saying to those users who have a mix of FF and specifically 7d or 7dmk2 you have to chose between the M or R mount. If you choose R you loose the extra reach the crop gives you unless as you suggest they but a 50 mp sensor in the body that will do 10 FPS plus with fast autofocus. That would be cool.


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## mirage (Nov 10, 2018)

Yes, going forward there is only choice between R [FF] and M [APS-C].
But to make things easier, EF and EF-S stay functional on both M and R.


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## -1 (Nov 10, 2018)

CR: "When could an APS-C EOS R body arrive? I would think after the “professional/sports/wildlife” EOS R body. This point is just a prediction."

That would be after the 2020 Olympics then... I think that it's more likely that we get to see more sturdy M's and native lenses in the mean time. Get adapters for your favorite EF and EF-S lenses, they are about 25 USD a pop...








https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Meike-AF-A...iid=181964597280&_trksid=p2047675.m4097.l9055


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## tron (Nov 10, 2018)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> So a 5D5 should be 5D4 tilty flippy version?


Only when they take their time to improve the already very good 5D4 sensor increase buffer space and fps a little. Ok would that make it a baby 1Dx somehow?


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## brad-man (Nov 10, 2018)

lwan said:


> While you can remain polite, I checked the website again (canonwatch). I think the canonwatch article couldn't have been interpreted differently than "no APS-C EOS R system". So I looked up myself the original article. There it's a whole different story and the question asked is clearly not what was hinted by canonwatch, so it was misleading. So my apologizes I was wrong. Anyway, rumors websites are what they are..


Apology gladly accepted and pardon my gruff reply. I do get a little put off by people making factual statements that are untrue. Ridiculous opinions, on the other hand, abound in mass quantities and must be endured. We have a local atmospheric disturbance with limitless "insights." 
P.S. Welcome to CR


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## Talys (Nov 10, 2018)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> So a 5D5 should be 5D4 tilty flippy version?


I don't care what they call it. I really like the 5D4, except that because I have to mount my camera high up on a tripod and compose what I'm photographing, a flippy screen (and specifically, the mirror mode) is invaluable. This is the only reason I don't own one


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## LSXPhotog (Nov 10, 2018)

Bundu said:


> The jackpot for me personally would be the two combined. High fps crop mode (20mp) and 50mp full frame. With a 1.3 crop in between! I love my 7dii but many times I had to switch to the 6dii (now replaced by the R) early morning or late afternoon when the light was bad. It is not an action camera! But I could still get some shots, better than none with the 7dii. The 6dii I used for astro, mackro, landscapes etc. The flippy screen I could not live without, hence the 6dii and not 5div (wich i tried for a while). So if I could have those two bodies in one...... win win win for me. Did not use the R much but already love it.



I would still like a solid mirrorless full-frame camera up to the 1DX Mark II standard, but if my main body could be a 50+mp camera with a high-speed crop mode to shoot with alongside a full-frame sports body...I would be a happy camper for sure. However, I won't be holding my breath. LOL


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## zim (Nov 10, 2018)

Architect1776 said:


> Perhaps it will. The R is only the first iteration and likely helping inform Canon as to future developments.


here's hoping!


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## zim (Nov 10, 2018)

mirage said:


> i don't see a "7D class EOS R with crop sensor" but expect Canon to keep EOS R series "FF only". It is all about R mount, which would be "wasted on a crop sensor".
> 
> i expect 2 mirrorfree cameras launched in the direction of "80D / 7D owners":
> A) "EOS R7" / FF / 1799 - same as 7D II launch price
> ...




this is what I really hope for but I see no signs of canon going this way, instead I think they have a 'why sell one camera when we can sell two' attitude. I hope I'm wrong.
as far as lenses are concerned, three lines, RL, R small and M no need for anything else.


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## Arod820 (Nov 11, 2018)

I really hope an APSC-R happens, it just makes sense. People need affordable B cameras. Havin an R or R pro coupled with a 7d equivalent on a long lens is crucial for wedding photogs. As for the M line I think that’s your bread and butter beginner market ie T6i. What would you rather buy, a t2-7i or a m5?


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## Memirsbrunnr (Nov 11, 2018)

One thing that comes to mind is the following, if you want to entice people to buy into the R system, you need a cheap apc R version where people can ease into the R glass. When you have heavily invested into M glass i see a very difficult upgrade åath, as for the enthusiast it will be too difficult/expensive
to switch


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## mirage (Nov 11, 2018)

you cannot be "heavily invested" in EF-M lenses, since they are (relatively) inexpensive. All of them together are a lot less money than a single RF 50/1.2.

No real problem, if there is no technical "upgrade path" to EOS R. folks able to spend a couple grand on an EOS R with expensive RF lenses can easily afford to sell an entire EOS M set and loose a few bucks on it.


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## mirage (Nov 11, 2018)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> One thing that comes to mind is the following, if you want to entice people to buy into the R system, you need a cheap apc R version where people can ease into the R glass.



nope. it needs
1. less expensive EOS R cameras (with FF sensor)
and
2. less exotic, less expensive RF lenses (FF image circle).

Canon will launch both - eventually. If still too expensive, then it is budget-friendly "EOS M land" waiting in "crop-sensor universe".


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## mirage (Nov 11, 2018)

Arod820 said:


> What would you rather buy, a t2-7i or a m5?



none. EOS M50. 

would also take M50 for only 500 $/€ over 80D or 7D II any day. Unless I was heavily into birds, wildlife, sports, fast action, long tele-lens stuff.


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## dave61 (Nov 11, 2018)

To be successful in the mirrorless space Canon needs a range of cameras that provide a path for amateurs to gradually upgrade their equipment from entry level (for me: a 450D and a couple of EF-S lenses nearly 15 years ago) to prosumer (EOS-R and mostly L glass). That means at least one and possibly two models that are cheaper than the R, and cheaper lenses too. An APS-C body and maybe RF-S lenses are the obvious ways to reduce the cost, and differentiate from more expensive gear.


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## BillB (Nov 11, 2018)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> One thing that comes to mind is the following, if you want to entice people to buy into the R system, you need a cheap apc R version where people can ease into the R glass. When you have heavily invested into M glass i see a very difficult upgrade åath, as for the enthusiast it will be too difficult/expensive
> to switch


The common denominator is EF, for what that is worth


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## mirage (Nov 11, 2018)

dave61 said:


> . An APS-C body and maybe RF-S lenses are the obvious ways to reduce the cost, and differentiate from more expensive gear.



that is taken care of very well by EOS M lineup.


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## tron (Nov 11, 2018)

There is really no reason for someone into APS-C or M series to change system. Their needs are covered quite adequately and I cannot find any reason for someone to pay more to mere go into an APS-C R system (apart from psychological reasons of some few of course who define anything newer better...).


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## zim (Nov 11, 2018)

dave61 said:


> To be successful in the mirrorless space Canon needs a range of cameras that provide a path for amateurs to gradually upgrade their equipment from entry level (for me: a 450D and a couple of EF-S lenses nearly 15 years ago) to prosumer (EOS-R and mostly L glass). That means at least one and possibly two models that are cheaper than the R, and cheaper lenses too. An APS-C body and maybe RF-S lenses are the obvious ways to reduce the cost, and differentiate from more expensive gear.



No need for RF-S lenses, cheaper smaller RF lenses will happen. How many of those EF-S lenses are you still using and when did you stop using them? I bet Canon have a lot of data regarding lens purchasing trends.


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## degos (Nov 11, 2018)

mirage said:


> i don't see a "7D class EOS R with crop sensor" but expect Canon to keep EOS R series "FF only". It is all about R mount, which would be "wasted on a crop sensor".



I see more 7D2s with 500 / 600 / 150-600mm EFs mounted than I do EF-S. Actually I don't know any 7D2 shooters who even bother with EF-S.

Is that a waste of EF mount? Not at all.


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## aceflibble (Nov 11, 2018)

This is the most "no shit" 'rumour' possible. _Of course_ there's going to be an APS-C R camera. The RF is going to replace the EF line across the board; mirrorless versions of every existing EF camera _are completely inevitable_. Some will happen in this next year, some others may take 5 years, and a few extremes (the absolute cheapest entry-level bodies and the 1D) might not be _fully_ replaced for 6-8 years, but it's all going to be swapped out at some point or another. Of those, getting a cheaper (i.e. APS-C) option out ASAP is by far the most obvious and logical choice.

In other news, sources tell us the sky should be blue tomorrow, while grass remains green for at least the rest of the week.


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## brad-man (Nov 11, 2018)

aceflibble said:


> This is the most "no shit" 'rumour' possible. _Of course_ there's going to be an APS-C R camera. The RF is going to replace the EF line across the board; mirrorless versions of every existing EF camera _are completely inevitable_. Some will happen in this next year, some others may take 5 years, and a few extremes (the absolute cheapest entry-level bodies and the 1D) might not be _fully_ replaced for 6-8 years, but it's all going to be swapped out at some point or another. Of those, getting a cheaper (i.e. APS-C) option out ASAP is by far the most obvious and logical choice.
> 
> In other news, sources tell us the sky should be blue tomorrow, while grass remains green for at least the rest of the week.


Isn't it astounding how something can be so obvious to some and so illusive to others...


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## Bob Howland (Nov 11, 2018)

degos said:


> I see more 7D2s with 500 / 600 / 150-600mm EFs mounted than I do EF-S. Actually I don't know any 7D2 shooters who even bother with EF-S.
> 
> Is that a waste of EF mount? Not at all.



Although I'm a generation behind, that is certainly how I use my 7D. I don't even own an EF-S lens.

So why couldn't Canon introduce a 50MP, 9FPS FF camera that could also crop to a 19MP, 24FPS APS-C camera and bin pixels 2x2 to create a 12.5MP, 24FPS FF Lord of Darkness camera? Would that make a worthy replacement for the 1Dx2 at the 2020 Summer Olympics?


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## neonlight (Nov 11, 2018)

I agree with him .. (aceflibble) that there will be an APS-C R and I suspect one model will be a 7DII replacement/upgrade. It would use all EF/EF_S glass (I still use my older 18-135 and 10-22 though most of the time my 7DII has a 100-400 on it).
There might be an entry level APS-C R model but much later (Canon will surely prioritise a Pro body and the 7D earlier), but that does seem less likely to attract M-system users.
And as R/RF will be Canon's future then I also think we will see cheaper APS-C RF lenses.


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## scyrene (Nov 11, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Why can't you make a lower cost lens for the R mount that has a smaller image circle?



You could, but it would add an extra layer of complexity. Either they call it RF and then have to explain in the small print that it doesn't give the FL/FOV you expect, or they create yet another line of lenses ("RF-S"). Casual consumers are already confused enough (the Amazon page for pretty much every Canon lens has dozens of questions 'can I use this on X camera?', even EF lenses on EOS DSLRs ). Mind you, Canon has surprised me before, I'm no marketing guru.

To me, the whole idea of a crop R body is weird. You can already mount EF-S lenses on the FF one. Creating a sub line of APS-C R bodies/lenses seems like unnecessary complication.


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## Don Haines (Nov 12, 2018)

scyrene said:


> You could, but it would add an extra layer of complexity. Either they call it RF and then have to explain in the small print that it doesn't give the FL/FOV you expect, or they create yet another line of lenses ("RF-S"). Casual consumers are already confused enough (the Amazon page for pretty much every Canon lens has dozens of questions 'can I use this on X camera?', even EF lenses on EOS DSLRs ). Mind you, Canon has surprised me before, I'm no marketing guru.
> 
> To me, the whole idea of a crop R body is weird. You can already mount EF-S lenses on the FF one. Creating a sub line of APS-C R bodies/lenses seems like unnecessary complication.


Yeah, it’s weird, but I know nothing about marketing either.....

Another thing I would expect to eventually see are some pancakes...... that would make a light and compact package!


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## Memirsbrunnr (Nov 12, 2018)

Bob Howland said:


> Although I'm a generation behind, that is certainly how I use my 7D. I don't even own an EF-S lens.
> 
> So why couldn't Canon introduce a 50MP, 9FPS FF camera that could also crop to a 19MP, 24FPS APS-C camera and bin pixels 2x2 to create a 12.5MP, 24FPS FF Lord of Darkness camera? Would that make a worthy replacement for the 1Dx2 at the 2020 Summer Olympics?



They could but it would be an extremely expensive body to deliver a 20 MPish cutout from a very high resolution sensor- that is why most people bought a 7D instead of a 1dx. Bcause it should at the sae time be great at high resolution FF shots and lower resolution apsc shots. Bringing it firmly in the 1dx price bracket it would be cheaper to buy a EOS R and a EOS r7 and have wo more specialised bodies to chose from


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## dave61 (Nov 12, 2018)

mirage said:


> that is taken care of very well by EOS M lineup.


There is no upgrade path from M to R.


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## dave61 (Nov 12, 2018)

zim said:


> No need for RF-S lenses, cheaper smaller RF lenses will happen. How many of those EF-S lenses are you still using and when did you stop using them? I bet Canon have a lot of data regarding lens purchasing trends.


They certainly need cheaper lenses, whether under RF-S brand or not.


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## mirage (Nov 12, 2018)

dave61 said:


> There is no upgrade path from M to R.



not needed.

there would also be no upgrade path from an APS-C sensored EOS R model with crop-only RF lenses to FF EOS R models and FF lenses. Buying FF lenses for crop cameras or using crop lenses on FF sensor cameras is no "upgrade path" it is a stop gap measure at best.

Reality is: going from crop to FF, requires buying new, different, larger, more expensive gear to utilize FF potential.

Personally i would rather want to upgrade from an inexpensive EOS M set to FF compared to 1. first sinking substantial money into "crop EOS R camera" plus "crop RF-S" lenses" and then 2. spend a lot more money again to buy into FF EOS R lineup.

Either crop gear for "small, inexpensive and somewhat limited photographic capabilities". or FF gear with "more photographic capabilities (depending on use case) , bigger size and bigger price.

Nobody would ask for an "upgrade path" from Fuji C (APS-C) to Fuji GFX or for Panasonic mFT to upcoming Panasonic FF gear (SR-1, SR-2). Only a few of the people who once bought Canon EF lenses for their crop cameras because "one day they might eventually switch to FF" (* have this strange notion of an "upgrade path".

(* i did that too. but i realized since that the "upgrade path" is not really one.


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## scyrene (Nov 12, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Yeah, it’s weird, but I know nothing about marketing either.....
> 
> Another thing I would expect to eventually see are some pancakes...... that would make a light and compact package!



I'm sure smaller lenses are coming, but again I think Canon would argue if size is your limiting factor, go for the M series


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## scyrene (Nov 12, 2018)

dave61 said:


> There is no upgrade path from M to R.



Does there need to be? Perhaps it turns out that too few people follow upgrade paths for compatibility to be a big issue in Canon's view.


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## delta0 (Nov 12, 2018)

The upgrade path has always been there. XXXD/XXD/7D owners do often own a mix of EF-S and EF lenses or completely EF lenses. It makes taking that step to the 5D/6D easier and attractive if you want to go FF. However even if you don’t want to make that step you get to keep access to some superb EF lenses particularly on the telephoto end. EOS M would be a step down for many and as everything moves to RF you lose access to the future great lenses. An EOS M lens will never be as good as an RF lens and for me I wouldn’t be happy with an EOS M but I want to upgrade slowly over time with RF. This means keeping my Sigma 18-35, 70-300L etc. and as new lenses come out and my budget permits I can start picking up RF lenses.


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## mirage (Nov 12, 2018)

delta0 said:


> ... I want to upgrade slowly over time with RF. This means keeping my Sigma 18-35, 70-300L etc. and as new lenses come out and my budget permits I can start picking up RF lenses.



no problem. All it takes is purchase of an EOS R body. All EF lenses will keep working. All EF-S/crop glass and most 3rd party crop lenses - will also keep working ... in crop mode. One can keep the EOS DSLR as well. All those lenses work on all EOS DSLRs and R cameras. I also believe that using an EOS R with FF glass [EF or RF] and cropping in post/software to "APS-C size" will yield at least as good if not better IQ than using a 7D2. 

And nobody is forced to "move down" to EOS M, as a matter of fact even the inexpensive, "entry level" M50 would be a clear upgrade for all EOS Rebel + EF-S owners. In terms of IQ, sensor, AF [eg Eye Tracking, AF points across entire frame, etc.], viewfinder, handling, size, weight, noise. And EF-M lenses are often superior to EF-S glass. Notably EF-M 11-22, 22/2, 28/3.5, 32/1.4, 18-55. 

For most use cases I'd also rate an M50 "better" than an EOS 80D. I also hope, that upcoming Canon "EOS M5 II" or whatever the "top M model" may be called, will be fully on par with Fuji XT3. Then it will also blow 7D II out of the water.


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## mirage (Nov 12, 2018)

scyrene said:


> I'm sure smaller lenses are coming, but again I think Canon would argue if size is your limiting factor, go for the M series



they will bring more compact and more affordable RF lenses pretty soon. They now they have to do it to entice folks [like me] to buy into EOS R.


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## dirk-jan (Nov 12, 2018)

I sure would love to see a 7D equivalent in the R-lineup.

Currently I shoot a 6D and 7d (both first iteration) with a 24-70 F/4, 70-200 F/4 and 400 F/5.6, which when doing nature and wildlife shots, get mounted in different configurations.
Having an EOS R and a hypothetical M5 Mark II would mean that I could never upgrade to an RF 24-70 or RF 70-200, as I couldn't mount those on the M5 Mark II.

To me, having a single high MP camera that can do fast fps in crop mode isn't feasible, as it would be rather expensive and on safaris I prefer shooting with two bodies anyway. I would much rather by an EOS R and a 7D equivalent in the R-line than a single 1Dx equivalent body.


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## delta0 (Nov 12, 2018)

mirage said:


> no problem. All it takes is purchase of an EOS R body. All EF lenses will keep working. All EF-S/crop glass and most 3rd party crop lenses - will also keep working ... in crop mode. One can keep the EOS DSLR as well. All those lenses work on all EOS DSLRs and R cameras. I also believe that using an EOS R with FF glass [EF or RF] and cropping in post/software to "APS-C size" will yield at least as good if not better IQ than using a 7D2.
> 
> And nobody is forced to "move down" to EOS M, as a matter of fact even the inexpensive, "entry level" M50 would be a clear upgrade for all EOS Rebel + EF-S owners. In terms of IQ, sensor, AF [eg Eye Tracking, AF points across entire frame, etc.], viewfinder, handling, size, weight, noise. And EF-M lenses are often superior to EF-S glass. Notably EF-M 11-22, 22/2, 28/3.5, 32/1.4, 18-55.
> 
> For most use cases I'd also rate an M50 "better" than an EOS 80D. I also hope, that upcoming Canon "EOS M5 II" or whatever the "top M model" may be called, will be fully on par with Fuji XT3. Then it will also blow 7D II out of the water.


I definitely think that is a possibility. Currently the resolution is too low in crop mode. It needs to be in the mid 20s/early 30s.


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## lwan (Nov 12, 2018)

brad-man said:


> Apology gladly accepted and pardon my gruff reply. I do get a little put off by people making factual statements that are untrue. Ridiculous opinions, on the other hand, abound in mass quantities and must be endured. We have a local atmospheric disturbance with limitless "insights."
> P.S. Welcome to CR


 Thank you 
I've been following this site for some time, hoping to finally see a 7D3 trustable hint but never had anything to post before.
Back on topic, I don't know what Canon is up to, but after some years of disapointment in the field that I'm interested into (high end crop sensor for wildlife), it'd better be good because I don't have enough glass to feel married to the brand.


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## Rocky (Nov 12, 2018)

There is nothing wrong to run R (FF) and M (APS-C) parralllel. Just like the situation of EF and EF-M now. M system is cheap enough to be left alone when some one wants to up grade to R. Then the old M system becomes a back up and/or easy to carry travel system. Personally, I do not agree that going from xxxD and xxD to M is a step down.


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## jvillain (Nov 12, 2018)

Bob Howland said:


> Although I'm a generation behind, that is certainly how I use my 7D. I don't even own an EF-S lens.
> 
> So why couldn't Canon introduce a 50MP, 9FPS FF camera that could also crop to a 19MP, 24FPS APS-C camera and bin pixels 2x2 to create a 12.5MP, 24FPS FF Lord of Darkness camera? Would that make a worthy replacement for the 1Dx2 at the 2020 Summer Olympics?



So why are you shooting on a 7D instead of buying a 5DSR and shooting it in crop mode? BTW having a high MP sensor and tossing most of the pixels will not make it a low light beast. It will be a worst of all worlds camera. High cost, poor low light, low image quality. 



mirage said:


> no problem. ...



I would disagree with every thing you said. The M is a tourist camera. It is not designed for the abuse of heavy users and if you look at the patents Canon keeps producing for future M lenses it will never be a platform for the people that have been shooting 7Ds and 80Ds. If I look at the M lens line up I see [email protected]+(5.6+ FF eq) , [email protected]+( 7.2+ FF eq), [email protected]( 3.2 FF eq) and [email protected](2.24FF eq) Sure it is an upgrade if you are shooting an SL2 with the kit lens but that's about it. I doubt many photographers shooting either a 7D or a 80D are shooting on the (runs to dig in the back of the closet) 18-35 F3.5 kit lens. The only reason I still have my kit lenses is in case a friend (or their kid) is starting out in photography I would just give them away. Now they aren't even fit for that purpose.


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## snappy604 (Nov 12, 2018)

jvillain said:


> As stated earlier because your down to 11MP in crop mode on the R. I didn't buy lenses capable of 50MP resolution to then shoot 11MP images. I would probably be better off shooting with my cell phone and cropping instead of zooming at that point.



wasn't aware of any EF-S lenses capable of 50MP 

the old 17-55mm 2.8IS is pretty decent (I use it all the time), but not sure it'd do well at 50MP crop.

anyways the point was it allows a gentle path to full frame. Many crop camera users (me being one) have a mix of EF-S and EF. I generally stopped buying crop lenses after that 17-55 2.8IS (which really should be refreshed if they continue crop, it's the workhorse for crop). I have EF lenses, but can't afford (yet) the cost of getting a 24-70 2.8 + a FF body. Anyways, really seems to me the game has changed a bit.. and it will be interesting to watch.


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## snappy604 (Nov 12, 2018)

Bundu said:


> The jackpot for me personally would be the two combined. High fps crop mode (20mp) and 50mp full frame. With a 1.3 crop in between! I love my 7dii but many times I had to switch to the 6dii (now replaced by the R) early morning or late afternoon when the light was bad. It is not an action camera! But I could still get some shots, better than none with the 7dii. The 6dii I used for astro, mackro, landscapes etc. The flippy screen I could not live without, hence the 6dii and not 5div (wich i tried for a while). So if I could have those two bodies in one...... win win win for me. Did not use the R much but already love it.




I... would love to see something like that. Being able to shoot crop for speed, or FF for detail.


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## Danglin52 (Nov 12, 2018)

mirage said:


> Hopefully Canon brings a really excellent "flagship M" ... EOS M5 II or "M7" soon. It should be a "mirrorfree 7D III" and a veritable Fuji XT-3/Nikon D-500 II killer ... at around 1499. EOS "R6" entry level could then come at 1699.
> 
> That would sort things out nicely and end all speculation regarding future:
> * EOS M = APS-C (from entry level to hi-end)
> * EOS R = FF sensor (with crop mode)



I have the m5 and don't believe it is the correct form factor for a sports / wildlife 7dII replacement. I have used the m5 with a 70-200 f4 L IS II and it is surprisingly well balanced, but that falls apart when you throw on the 100-400 or something larger. I think even with the R form factor, you would want a battery grip to give you a better balance with longer lenses. That said, I would love a beefed up m5 II with fast, accurate AF and more robust capabilities.


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## Bob Howland (Nov 12, 2018)

jvillain said:


> So why are you shooting on a 7D instead of buying a 5DSR and shooting it in crop mode? BTW having a high MP sensor and tossing most of the pixels will not make it a low light beast. It will be a worst of all worlds camera. High cost, poor low light, low image quality.



"FPS" means Frames Per Second. Notice the differences between the first configuration and the latter two configurations. Also, 2X2 binning refers to treating a 2 by 2 matrix of pixels as a single much larger presumably more light sensitive pixel, which reduces the number of pixels by a factor of 4, although the entire sensor area is used. Whether Canon (or Nikon or Panasonic) can actually do it is another question entirely.


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## koenkooi (Nov 12, 2018)

snappy604 said:


> wasn't aware of any EF-S lenses capable of 50MP [..]



The Canon EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM comes to mind, I find it very sharp, but that's on an 18MP APS-C sensor.


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## delta0 (Nov 12, 2018)

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Sigma 18-35 1.8 worked well with high MP sensors.


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 12, 2018)

Bob Howland said:


> "FPS" means Frames Per Second. Notice the differences between the first configuration and the latter two configurations. Also, 2X2 binning refers to treating a 2 by 2 matrix of pixels as a single much larger presumably more light sensitive pixel, which reduces the number of pixels by a factor of 4, although the entire sensor area is used. Whether Canon (or Nikon or Panasonic) can actually do it is another question entirely.


I don’t see why canon or Panasonic couldn’t figure it out. Binning is a neat trick. The CMOSIS sensors which support it and have published datasheets advertise a 1:1 increase in well capacity (i.e. the binned readout of a 4 pixel block is 4 times that of an individual pixel).


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## Memirsbrunnr (Nov 13, 2018)

mirage said:


> no problem. All it takes is purchase of an EOS R body. All EF lenses will keep working. All EF-S/crop glass and most 3rd party crop lenses - will also keep working ... in crop mode. One can keep the EOS DSLR as well. All those lenses work on all EOS DSLRs and R cameras. I also believe that using an EOS R with FF glass [EF or RF] and cropping in post/software to "APS-C size" will yield at least as good if not better IQ than using a 7D2.
> 
> And nobody is forced to "move down" to EOS M, as a matter of fact even the inexpensive, "entry level" M50 would be a clear upgrade for all EOS Rebel + EF-S owners. In terms of IQ, sensor, AF [eg Eye Tracking, AF points across entire frame, etc.], viewfinder, handling, size, weight, noise. And EF-M lenses are often superior to EF-S glass. Notably EF-M 11-22, 22/2, 28/3.5, 32/1.4, 18-55.
> 
> For most use cases I'd also rate an M50 "better" than an EOS 80D. I also hope, that upcoming Canon "EOS M5 II" or whatever the "top M model" may be called, will be fully on par with Fuji XT3. Then it will also blow 7D II out of the water.



It might be technical superior top 80D although I a, not convinced it is all around the case. i both loved and hated the size of the M50 when i tried it in the store. Love to have one as a walk around camera or as BACKUP.. but i feel it would be tedious when i put a large lens on it for birding.. For that I would like a cheap apc EOS R sized body without having to shell out 1dx 2 amounts of money because you keep on insisting the FF chip has to download to get the 20-24 MP i would like for birding. 
You may not like an apc body, fine don't buy one, but don't be as hard headed to state other people would not need one and should just buy the extreme expensive high resolution version only to use it in apc mode. With your logic the 7D series was also not needed, a FF body size what a waste to put an apc sensor in it.


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## Rocky (Nov 13, 2018)

jvillain said:


> I would disagree with every thing you said. The M is a tourist camera. It is not designed for the abuse of heavy users and if you look at the patents Canon keeps producing for future M lenses it will never be a platform for the people that have been shooting 7Ds and 80Ds. If I look at the M lens line up I see [email protected]+(5.6+ FF eq) , [email protected]+( 7.2+ FF eq), [email protected]( 3.2 FF eq) and [email protected](2.24FF eq) Sure it is an upgrade if you are shooting an SL2 with the kit lens but that's about it. I doubt many photographers shooting either a 7D or a 80D are shooting on the (runs to dig in the back of the closet) 18-35 F3.5 kit lens. The only reason I still have my kit lenses is in case a friend (or their kid) is starting out in photography I would just give them away. Now they aren't even fit for that purpose.


The beauty of the M is that you can use ANY lens with the proper adapter. So the lens is not limited to EF-M. I have used various EF lenses on the M, the focusing speed did not suffer with the adapter. Therefore your lens limitation of EF-M can be overcome easily. I have also used a few Leica lenses ( MF) on the M50. I am having a ball with it. I moved from 40D to M and I have never looked back. In fact, I travel with EF-M, EF and Leica lenses


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## mirage (Nov 13, 2018)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> With your logic the 7D series was also not needed, a FF body size what a waste to put an apc sensor in it.



hehe, i am a former 7D owner myself. Liked it a lot ... before i went FF (5D3) plus EOS M. Now the 5D3 gets little use, M gets almost daily use. Solely due to size/weight.

i do agree with you that for certain use cases - "focal length limited + action + budget limited" - APS-C cameras are still useful.

but i think/guess (!) Canon will meet that demand with a "higher-end" EOS M model rather than putting an APS-C sensor into its EOS R series.

And i see zero chance for a new lineup of crop-only "RF-S" lenses, just when they are about to transition from EF + EF-S to RF + EF-M and consolidate 4 concurrent lens lines into 2.

upcoming EOS M5 successor could be as capable as Fuji XT3 (= better than 7D II and Nikon D500) and come in a fairly rugged, weathersealed body that is
* a bit larger than M5 (more grip, stronger LP-E6N battery - like EOS R)
* but still smaller than (current) EOS R model and
* priced substantially lower than EOS R - eg 1299-1499 (again, competitive with Fuji XT3).

i believe Canon will clearly distinguish its 2 MILC product lines by imaging circle:
1. EOS R = "FF all the way"
2. EOS M = APS-C sensors, covering spectrum from entry level "point and shoot style" (M100, powershot replacement) all the way up to and including "80D/7D class" segment

But ... i am only a "market observer" for many years, not a Canon insider. We shall see, which route they'll really take. 

Personally I always prefer "functionality with as little bulk as possible" = cameras with "large sensor in as compact/portable a shell as feasible". worst case for me is "a dwarf-sized mFT sensor buried in a giant camera that could easily house an FF sensor ... (eg Pana GH5). 

i am hoping/waiting for the opposite ... a mirrorfree FFsensor Canon EOS R model as capable, but smaller and lower price eg 1599 to 1799. Ideally (for me) almost as compact as a Sony A7 first gen ... but with serious LP-E6N class power pack ... and with pop-up EVF (as seen on some Sony cameras) instead of "permanent hump on top". Minimum pack size (mountaineering) and inconspicuousness (street, concerts) are important for me.


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## koenkooi (Nov 13, 2018)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> It might be technical superior top 80D although I a, not convinced it is all around the case. i both loved and hated the size of the M50 when i tried it in the store. Love to have one as a walk around camera or as BACKUP.. but i feel it would be tedious when i put a large lens on it for birding.. For that I would like a cheap apc EOS R sized body without having to shell out 1dx 2 amounts of money because you keep on insisting the FF chip has to download to get the 20-24 MP i would like for birding.
> You may not like an apc body, fine don't buy one, but don't be as hard headed to state other people would not need one and should just buy the extreme expensive high resolution version only to use it in apc mode. With your logic the 7D series was also not needed, a FF body size what a waste to put an apc sensor in it.



I bought a SL1/100D as backup for my 7D, it's exactly as you say it is with large lenses. But it fits in a purse or diaper bag with ease. The SL1+60mm macro also can go into tighter spaces than the 7D/100mm combo.
Personally, I'm waiting for a 50MP+ R body, that would get me about the same number pixel in an APS-C frame as the 7D and extra width for all the EF lenses. That will also be like 3-4 times the price I paid for the 7D originally...


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## dave61 (Nov 13, 2018)

scyrene said:


> Does there need to be? Perhaps it turns out that too few people follow upgrade paths for compatibility to be a big issue in Canon's view.


There doesn't _need_ to be an upgrade path, but it is in Canon's interest to provide one.

I should add that there would be a path from M to R if Canon release an RF adapter for the M (like the EF to M adapter).


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## dave61 (Nov 13, 2018)

mirage said:


> Only a few of the people who once bought Canon EF lenses for their crop cameras because "one day they might eventually switch to FF" (* have this strange notion of an "upgrade path".
> 
> (* i did that too. but i realized since that the "upgrade path" is not really one.


Of course using FF lens on a crop-sensor camera is an upgrade path. It is exactly what I did, and deliberately so, because it has enabled to spread the cost of getting to good glass on a FF camera over a long period.


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## mirage (Nov 13, 2018)

dave61 said:


> There doesn't _need_ to be an upgrade path, but it is in Canon's interest to provide one.
> I should add that there would be a path from M to R if Canon release an RF adapter for the M (like the EF to M adapter).



[probably] physically/geometrically not possible, since there is only 2mm difference in flange focal distance [R = 20mm, M = 18mm] and in addition fairly large difference in throat width [R = 54, M=47mm].


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## mirage (Nov 13, 2018)

dave61 said:


> Of course using FF lens on a crop-sensor camera is an upgrade path. It is exactly what I did, and deliberately so, because it has enabled to spread the cost of getting to good glass on a FF camera over a long period.



this "upgrade path" has little real benefit. At the end of the day, FF needs FF lenses and you have to buy those. "Spreading out the cost" means you don't have FF lenses to shoot with until you buy them. And typically EF lenses purchased for use with crop DSLRs were tele (zooms) ... 70-300, 70-200, 100-400, etc. - since they were not offered as EF-S and/or would not be any smaller or less expensive for crop image circle.  

First i bought some EF-S lenses. 
Then some EF lenses. 
Then I sold all EF-S lenses [except 60 Macro]. 
Then I bought some EF-M lenses. 
Now I could sell my EF lenses. 
And buy RF lenses ... 
Rinse and Repeat. 
 

Similar to the transition in music industry. I would be paying the 4th time now for the same piece of music. 
1. Vinyl LP ->  2. CD -> 3. download -> 4. Streaming [rent, subscription = even worse, so I refuse and stick with #2. CD + RIP ] ... welcome to the digital age.


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## BillB (Nov 13, 2018)

mirage said:


> hehe, i am a former 7D owner myself. Liked it a lot ... before i went FF (5D3) plus EOS M. Now the 5D3 gets little use, M gets almost daily use. Solely due to size/weight.
> 
> i do agree with you that for certain use cases - "focal length limited + action + budget limited" - APS-C cameras are still useful.
> 
> ...


RF-S lenses seem unlikely to me also. However, it seems to me that the may be some people using RF lenses who want a camera that delivers higher pixel densities than are available from a reasonably priced FF R mount camera. Whether this market is big enough for Canon to go after, I do not know. (A lot of people thought the 7DII was strange at the time.)


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## tron (Nov 13, 2018)

herion said:


> I'd say a good bit but not considerable. Dual Digic 8's can add a lot of horsepower - even a Digic 8 and a Digic 7 could add a lot. I'd say the elephant in the room is the BSI processor. I don't know if BSI technology and dual-pixel autofocus are mutually exclusive - are they?


I am NOT an expert but Canon sensors improved alot with the 5D4 and it supports dual-pixel autofocus. Even if it is not the same technology that was used to make this sensor we care about this kind of improvement (results) and hoping for something even better and not actually how they can induce these.

EDIT: And Dual Digic 8 could be a solution for a decent performance increase (in fps).


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## mirage (Nov 13, 2018)

in related news ... Panasonic will not offer an "upgrade path" for mFT lens owners to upcoming FF L-mount system. OMG! 
https://www.l-rumors.com/panasonic-will-not-make-a-mft-to-l-mount-lens-adapter/


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## dave61 (Nov 14, 2018)

mirage said:


> this "upgrade path" has little real benefit.


The benefit is that you spread out the cost.

Imagine you only have €500 free cash per year. At my local camera shop you can get a 1200D with EF-S 18-55 lens and an EF-S 55-250 for a total of €478. Next year you upgrade the short-zoom (EF 24-105, €349), the following year the mid-zoom (EF 70-300, €545), now wait two years and buy a 6D for €999. 

This way you have a camera in year one. The alternative is waiting 4 years with no camera to buy the 6D with the two EF lenses.


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## mirage (Nov 14, 2018)

In the above example - and in hindsight - it would be smarter to buy the 6D + 24-105 (non-L) in year 2. And save yourself all the Rebel and EF-S trouble. 

Or buy an M50 with 15-45 at about 550. Then 22/2.0, 11-22, 18-150. And leave FF alone. A lot of money saved.


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## beegee (Nov 15, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The signs are pointing to an EOS R replacement instead of a Mark II version. This should come into focus in the next month or two.


In that case will this APS-C model be more of a 7D MkIII MILC alternative? Or are your sources still hinting at a separate 7D MkIII in the current body format?

Thanks


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## padam (Nov 16, 2018)

mirage said:


> In the above example - and in hindsight - it would be smarter to buy the 6D + 24-105 (non-L) in year 2. And save yourself all the Rebel and EF-S trouble.
> 
> Or buy an M50 with 15-45 at about 550. Then 22/2.0, 11-22, 18-150. And leave FF alone. A lot of money saved.


That sounded attractive to me as well after I've checked the prices, but thinking about it, it is very specific who can be happy with a setup like this. f/2 on a crop sensor is not that fast (yes, there is now the 32/1.4 but it is not cheap) and the zooms are just slow.
I would rather still buy the bigger 10-18mm because it is a little wider than the 11-22mm and it can be utilised on more cameras.


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## mirage (Nov 16, 2018)

beegee said:


> In that case will this APS-C model be more of a 7D MkIII MILC alternative? Or are your sources still hinting at a separate 7D MkIII in the current body format?



if i recall correctly, CR guy said:
* 5Ds/R successor might come as mirrorfree hi-rez sensor EOS R model, rather than as Mk. II DSLR
* he has not received any (halfway credible) information regarding possible 7D II successor / "7D III"

There is only this unspecific rumor "potential APS-C sensored EOS R model likely". But it would not really make a lot of sense ... and also contradict statements by Canon managers in published interviews .. despite CR2 rating ... "unlikely to materialize" in my opinion.


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## jolyonralph (Nov 16, 2018)

So. I think that Canon have pretty much killed off the DSLR. They've already said no new EF lenses in 2019, only RF lenses. We'll no doubt have one more iteration at least of the main families of DSLRs, although one has to wonder if Canon would launch a 7D Mark III in 2019 knowing it wouldn't have another 5-6 year market life. Same with a 5D Mark V. I think if they are going to come out, they'd have to come out very soon (it's possible based on information from the certification tests).

The EOS R is good, and feedback has been strongly positive and sales good apparently. I'm sure we'll see one more round of DSLRs but then that'll probably be it, except maybe for the 1D class which will carry on for a while. 

Now, I said before that I think there will be RF-S lenses if they produce an APS-C RF body. Thinking about this more I think probably not. 

Instead they will likely produce low-end full-frame zooms that are excellent optically over the APS-C area but with compromises in the extended area. Something like the 17-70 design they have already patented (but maybe a simpler version).

This would be a perfect kit lens for the APS-C RF camera, with the added bonus that it would work as a full-frame wide angle to standard zoom on full-frame bodies.

We know a lot of software development has gone into automatically fixing distortion and chromatic issues, so I think what will happen is that these native lenses could be simpler optically (ie cheaper) and rely on software to fix issues that would otherwise compromise image quality. Pros wouldn't want this, but then that's not the market for this kind of lens.

So lenses could be marketed as primarily for APS-C use, but would work fine on full-frame cameras, albeit with some issues.

This isn't the first time that Canon have done this. When they launched their EOS IX7 APS film camera they bundled it with a EF 22-55mm lens which was optimised for APS-C use but still gave a full frame image circle. It isn't a great lens for full frame, but it does work.


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## mirage (Nov 16, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> So lenses could be marketed as primarily for APS-C use, but would work fine on full-frame cameras, albeit with some issues.
> 
> This isn't the first time that Canon have done this. When they launched their EOS IX7 APS film camera they bundled it with a EF 22-55mm lens which was optimised for APS-C use but still gave a full frame image circle. It isn't a great lens for full frame, but it does work.



don't think they'll do this. And if, i hope they get as much burned for it as they did with the DOA APS-C film system back then. 

Canon will launch "very good to excellent IQ" RF lenses - all fully capable to handle 50+ MP FF sensors. Anything for APS-C - cameras and lenses - will be delivered via EOS M / EF-M lineup.


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 16, 2018)

mirage said:


> In the above example - and in hindsight - it would be smarter to buy the 6D + 24-105 (non-L) in year 2. And save yourself all the Rebel and EF-S trouble.



To me, the wisdom of that depends on whether the buyer has a functional camera to use in year 1, and if not whether they’d prefer to forgo taking photos for that year in exchange for a net savings realized.

I don’t personally like being without a camera, which is (tangent alert) why I don’t play the “wait in case there is an upgrade around the bend” game and prefer the model of releasing technology when it’s ready (arguably what Sony does, or perhaps used to) rather than on a contrived business cycle.


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## Rocky (Nov 16, 2018)

Sound like a lot of the posters are proposing getting the APS-C R with the FF R lens or APS-C R lens and then upgrade to FF R. That sounds familiar in the EF and EF-S saga. How many EF-S lens and APS_C dslrs are sitting in the closet or dump yard now? Do we want the same saga to be repeated again?


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## delta0 (Nov 16, 2018)

Rocky said:


> Sound like a lot of the posters are proposing getting the APS-C R with the FF R lens or APS-C R lens and then upgrade to FF R. That sounds familiar in the EF and EF-S saga. How many EF-S lens and APS_C dslrs are sitting in the closet or dump yard now? Do we want the same saga to be repeated again?


Isn’t that what ebay is for?


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## mirage (Nov 17, 2018)

except ebay does not work any longer for truly private sales. they are exclusively servicing f*cking hongkong "power sellers". you and i and uncle bob are only welcome as stupid buyers. not as sellers. got it?


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2018)

delta0 said:


> Isn’t that what ebay is for?


If you want the EOS R FF, han go straight to the EOS R FF body and lenses. Why brother with APS-C R body and lenses, then go through the trouble of selling it later at ebay.


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## delta0 (Nov 17, 2018)

Rocky said:


> If you want the EOS R FF, han go straight to the EOS R FF body and lenses. Why brother with APS-C R body and lenses, then go through the trouble of selling it later at ebay.


Most people can’t afford to go FF and the heavy investment into FF lenses. It takes time. Ebay is great to shift the old lenses/bodies and help with the upgrading over the years. People need that path otherwise we might as well have just L lenses and the 1D.


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## Don Haines (Nov 17, 2018)

If an “R” crop model comes out, it will not be a 7D2 replacement unless it has better performance than the existing model. The market of those who wish to pay more for less is quite limited


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## tron (Nov 17, 2018)

A friend bought the EOS R. He told me that it's useless for flying birds (he was referring about its EVF and not its AF capability). He likes it for landscapes using the 24-105 though.


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## BeenThere (Nov 17, 2018)

tron said:


> A friend bought the EOS R. He told me that it's useless for flying birds (he was referring about its EVF and not its AF capability). He likes it for landscapes using the 24-105 though.


A little more color about the EVF when using for BIF would be helpful.


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## tron (Nov 17, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> A little more color about the EVF when using for BIF would be helpful.


Actually his complain was that it was slow (or the bird faster  ) He had no problem to shoot them with 5D3 and 5D4.


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2018)

tron said:


> Actually his complain was that it was slow (or the bird faster  ) He had no problem to shoot them with 5D3 and 5D4.


That is true for ANY CAMERA WITH EVF. THere is a DELAY between the sensor and the EVF. Also another delay between you eye and your trigger finger plus another delay between your finger and the movement of the shutter.


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2018)

delta0 said:


> Most people can’t afford to go FF and the heavy investment into FF lenses. It takes time. Ebay is great to shift the old lenses/bodies and help with the upgrading over the years. People need that path otherwise we might as well have just L lenses and the 1D.


Assuming you have already up graded from APS-C to FF in the EOS DSLR system. You should already have a collection of EF lense. Just get the EOS R (FF) body now and use an adapter with all your EF lens. This may be cheaper than buying a future APS-C R plus couple RF lenses.


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## BeenThere (Nov 17, 2018)

Rocky said:


> That is true for ANY CAMERA WITH EVF. THere is a DELAY between the sensor and the EVF. Also another delay between you eye and your trigger finger plus another delay between your finger and the movement of the shutter.


Two of these delays are also present with mirror slappers.


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> Two of these delays are also present with mirror slappers.


Sensor to EVF delay is a lot more than the other 2.


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## delta0 (Nov 17, 2018)

Rocky said:


> Assuming you have already up graded from APS-C to FF in the EOS DSLR system. You should already have a collection of EF lense. Just get the EOS R (FF) body now and use an adapter with all your EF lens. This may be cheaper than buying a future APS-C R plus couple RF lenses.


Most haven’t made that step to FF yet and could well be on that journey or want to keep that option open for later. There will of course be many others starting with Canon and they need that entry point that isn’t straight into FF with expensive lenses. Of course they could go for the Ef-m but that isn’t going to be a transition to progress into any R system whether FF or aps-c.


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2018)

delta0 said:


> Most haven’t made that step to FF yet and could well be on that journey or want to keep that option open for later. There will of course be many others starting with Canon and they need that entry point that isn’t straight into FF with expensive lenses. Of course they could go for the Ef-m but that isn’t going to be a transition to progress into any R system whether FF or aps-c.


Are you ready to buy an APS-C RF body with the heavy and expensive FF RF lens just because you are anticipating to up grade to FF later??


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## delta0 (Nov 17, 2018)

Rocky said:


> Are you ready to buy an APS-C RF body with the heavy and expensive FF RF lens just because you are anticipating to up grade to FF later??


I want access to the best lenses I can afford. That could be an aps-c, FF or even an L lens. You don’t need to make the step to FF but having access to great lenses is very appealing. Many people do have Ef-s and Ef lenses with aps-c bodies.


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## brad-man (Nov 18, 2018)

delta0 said:


> I want access to the best lenses I can afford. That could be an aps-c, FF or even an L lens. You don’t need to make the step to FF but having access to great lenses is very appealing. Many people do have Ef-s and Ef lenses with aps-c bodies.


Save your breath. Some folks around here are convinced the R is a fancy new elite camera system with nothing but high-end lenses. In reality, it is Canon's new mount, and as such it will be servicing all sorts of camera models and lenses.


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## scyrene (Nov 18, 2018)

dave61 said:


> There doesn't _need_ to be an upgrade path, *but it is in Canon's interest to provide one*.
> 
> I should add that there would be a path from M to R if Canon release an RF adapter for the M (like the EF to M adapter).



The bit in bold: this is my point which you seem to have missed. It might *not* be in their interest. They must have crunched the numbers on sales, and maybe they saw that so few people followed upgrade paths, it wasn't important enough to bother with (maybe they even make more money by selling lenses and then selling new ones when people upgrade to an incompatible body). We simply don't know - but they must have had (what they considered) good reasons for not providing one.

As for your adaptor comment, I didn't think that was possible, as you'd be mounting the RF lens too far away (by adding an adaptor)? Can lens mount people comment on this?


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## Rocky (Nov 18, 2018)

delta0 said:


> I want access to the best lenses I can afford.


Please look into the Leica M or SL system.


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## Rocky (Nov 18, 2018)

dave61 said:


> There doesn't _need_ to be an upgrade path, but it is in Canon's interest to provide one.
> 
> I should add that there would be a path from M to R if Canon release an RF adapter for the M (like the EF to M adapter).


The RF to M adapter is a pie in the sky. 1. The Flange of RF Is only 2mm ,more than the M. 2. The throat opening of RF IS bigger than the M. You are asking the adapter to jam the RF mount pus the electric connection all in 2mm space


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## dave61 (Nov 19, 2018)

Rocky said:


> The RF to M adapter is a pie in the sky. 1. The Flange of RF Is only 2mm ,more than the M. 2. The throat opening of RF IS bigger than the M. You are asking the adapter to jam the RF mount pus the electric connection all in 2mm space


I am not _asking_ for it. My point is that without such a thing, which is highly unlikely for the reasons you give, there is no upgrade path from M to R.


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## dave61 (Nov 19, 2018)

scyrene said:


> The bit in bold: this is my point which you seem to have missed. It might *not* be in their interest. They must have crunched the numbers on sales, and maybe they saw that so few people followed upgrade paths, it wasn't important enough to bother with (maybe they even make more money by selling lenses and then selling new ones when people upgrade to an incompatible body).


I struggle to see that it is not in their interest to tie people into the Canon ecosystem at the earliest possible point. Why risk them going to another brand?



scyrene said:


> We simply don't know - but they must have had (what they considered) good reasons for not providing one.


It is much too early to say that they are not providing one.


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## BillB (Nov 19, 2018)

dave61 said:


> I am not _asking_ for it. My point is that without such a thing, which is highly unlikely for the reasons you give, there is no upgrade path from M to R.


The upgrade path, such as it is, is through EF lenses, which can be adapted to the EF-M mount and the R mount.


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## scyrene (Nov 19, 2018)

dave61 said:


> I struggle to see that it is not in their interest to tie people into the Canon ecosystem at the earliest possible point. Why risk them going to another brand?
> 
> It is much too early to say that they are not providing one.


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## dave61 (Nov 20, 2018)

BillB said:


> The upgrade path, such as it is, is through EF lenses, which can be adapted to the EF-M mount and the R mount.


True. Pretty ugly though.


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## Rocky (Nov 20, 2018)

dave61 said:


> True. Pretty ugly though.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I was using 28-135 with adapter on my M50 in two major trips. Quite a few people told me that looks cool.


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## dave61 (Nov 21, 2018)

Rocky said:


> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I was using 28-135 with adapter on my M50 in two major trips. Quite a few people told me that looks cool.


Not surprised, my M6 on the end of a _big white_ looks cool too, but I didn't mean aesthetically.


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