# Canon EOS M200 coming soon



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 13, 2019)

> As previously reported, Canon will announce a replacement to the entry-level EOS M100 soon according to Nokishita.
> No specifications have leaked out for the little EOS M camera, but we wouldn’t be surprised to see it keep the same 24mp image sensor as the EOS M50, with the EOS M50 replacement getting the new 32.5mp image sensor that recently appeared in the new EOS M6 Mark II and EOS 90D. Here’s hoping we do get surprised and Canon brings the new sensor to the entry-level EOS M camera.



Continue reading...


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## The3o5FlyGuy (Sep 13, 2019)

no... please. Don't do it.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 13, 2019)

yay. M200, M6II, and 90D if all their megapixels are blended together, may make a high-res RS with 83 mp sensor!!


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## Nbien (Sep 13, 2019)

Another canon M, but still no new ef-M lens...


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## slclick (Sep 13, 2019)

Different strokes for different folks. Nothing wrong with more cameras, even if it's not the one you are looking for.


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## SouthpawSD (Sep 13, 2019)

What I would really love for this system is a wide angle prime. Something like the Samyang 12mm f2 but with STM AF ...


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## i_SH (Sep 13, 2019)

Canon пожалуйста M5II + пара линз:
1. EF-M 12-48 / 1.8-4 ( https://www.canonwatch.com/canon-patent-for-12-48mm-f-1-8-4-0-lens-for-eos-m -система / ). Еще лучше - 11-55 / 1,8-2,8!
2. EF-M 55-250 / 2.8-4 + Удлинитель EF-M 2x


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## SteveC (Sep 13, 2019)

i_SH said:


> Canon пожалуйста M5II + пара линз:
> 1. EF-M 12-48 / 1.8-4 ( https://www.canonwatch.com/canon-patent-for-12-48mm-f-1-8-4-0-lens-for-eos-m -система / ). Еще лучше - 11-55 / 1,8-2,8!
> 2. EF-M 55-250 / 2.8-4 + Удлинитель EF-M 2x



My Russian is very, very rusty but I believe I'm largely in agreement; I'd like to see the same things.


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## cellomaster27 (Sep 13, 2019)

man, if canon hired ONE person from the forum.. at random. we'd see some actual developments that are needed. seriously..


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## blackcoffee17 (Sep 13, 2019)

SteveC said:


> My Russian is very, very rusty but I believe I'm largely in agreement; I'd like to see the same things.



Those lenses would be epic. Especially the 12-48 (20-76) is amazing range, especially if the quality is there. I really like the new M6, EVF aside, but we need few more lenses.


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## Cryhavoc (Sep 13, 2019)

While I love me some Canon hardware, when I wanted a smaller full featured camera to pack around light, I went with a used Oly OM-D EM1. Fantastic tech packed into that camera from 5 years ago. Bought it with three batteries, the grip and a 32gb mem card for $369. Paid $200 for an Oly 17mm. So for basically $600 bucks out the door, I have 10fps, ibis, pro features and a lightweight mirrorless that is such a nice feature packed camera that I have no need for a Canon M series ecosystem. Since I have absolutely no need for 4k video in a stills camera, I'm good to go with this Oly.

That being said, that M6 mkII is looking pretty sweet.


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## SteveC (Sep 13, 2019)

Cryhavoc said:


> That being said, that M6 mkII is looking pretty sweet.



My major "I wish it had" was the flippy screen--if it had that, I'd buy it. Even the Canon rep acknowledged he liked those better than tilt ones. I do like the Fv mode that it inherited from the R series. So now I have to hope the M5 II not only happens, but has the flippy screen.


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## Sharlin (Sep 13, 2019)

SteveC said:


> My major "I wish it had" was the flippy screen--if it had that, I'd buy it. Even the Canon rep acknowledged he liked those better than tilt ones. I do like the Fv mode that it inherited from the R series. So now I have to hope the M5 II not only happens, but has the flippy screen.



I wonder how the eventual M50 successor is going to look like. Even though one step below the M6II on the product ladder, it may well end up being an extremely attractive camera if it inherits even half of the new goodies _and_ retains the builtin EVF and the full tilty-flippy LCD.


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## SteveC (Sep 13, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> I wonder how the eventual M50 successor is going to look like. Even though one step below the M6II on the product ladder, it may well end up being an extremely attractive camera if it inherits even half of the new goodies _and_ retains the builtin EVF and the full tilty-flippy LCD.



I _did _point out that the flippy screen was on the M50 (which is what I currently use) so it logically should be on all higher models. (The EVF, not so much, because the M6's whole "thing" is to not have a VF bump on it, but the M5 II should have one.)


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## SteveC (Sep 13, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Here’s hoping we do get surprised and Canon brings the new sensor to the entry-level EOS M camera.



I got to "play" with an R last Saturday...and came away with a positive impression. I had actually thought about getting either it or an RP (the RP has more physical controls that are useful and is much cheaper), but now, ironically, I'm hesitant to buy a full frame camera with *fewer* megapixels than the APS-C I will likely also have soon.


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## mcfrlnd (Sep 13, 2019)

Surprised (not really) to hear about more mark II releases vs new fast(er) EF-M lenses. It's not like Canon needs that many to up the M game, but it needs it.


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## mattc (Sep 13, 2019)

Tired of the EOS M. I go sleepy now.


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## SteveC (Sep 13, 2019)

mcfrlnd said:


> Surprised (not really) to hear about more mark II releases vs new fast(er) EF-M lenses. It's not like Canon needs that many to up the M game, but it needs it.



A few weeks ago someone was speculating that maybe Canon is willing to let third parties do the lens development for these cameras--maybe even was licensing them to do so. It seemed plausible at the time but now I'm thinking...why would Canon want to give up that market?


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## slclick (Sep 13, 2019)

cellomaster27 said:


> man, if canon hired ONE person from the forum.. at random. we'd see some actual developments that are needed. seriously..


Someone please create an acronym based upon how Forum members are not typical camera customers.


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## Etienne (Sep 13, 2019)

Another cheapo camera that would struggle to compete with my phone, and without: fully stabilized 4K video, a zillion sharing and publishing options, many many editing options, shallow DOF portrait options. And I'll always have that fully portable nano-studio with me while el-cheapo McCanon with next-to-nothing extra to offer stays at home. No thanks.
Tick tock, time is running out on the market for mediocre little cameras. Bring the goods or go home. Top notch M5 mk II, and stop the cheapskate crap.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 13, 2019)

slclick said:


> Someone please create an acronym based upon how Forum members are not typical camera customers.


FMANTCC?


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## Sharlin (Sep 13, 2019)

Etienne said:


> shallow DOF portrait options.



I believe that's called "the kit lens"


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## LSXPhotog (Sep 13, 2019)

I just want more lenses for this system! A new faster standard zoom or another pancake wide angle. PLEASE CANON!!


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## Otara (Sep 13, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> FMANTCC?



Im thinking MANT covers it.


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## cellomaster27 (Sep 13, 2019)

slclick said:


> Someone please create an acronym based upon how Forum members are not typical camera customers.



Exactly, "typical" camera consumers are.. not smart. lol They buy into things like 4K, more MP, fps, smaller/larger size camera body.. I want to see something epic - not good.


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## Sporgon (Sep 13, 2019)

Otara said:


> Im thinking MANT covers it.



Well judging by a lot of the posters on CR:

Canon Luminaries InTent On Rival Imaging Systems


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## rjbray01 (Sep 13, 2019)

LSXPhotog said:


> I just want more lenses for this system! A new faster standard zoom or another pancake wide angle. PLEASE CANON!!


Yeah plus IBIS, high res and low latency viewfinder, a native 24-105 f/4 plus an electronic diopter control for bragging rights and it would be a half decent camera


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## BillB (Sep 13, 2019)

SteveC said:


> A few weeks ago someone was speculating that maybe Canon is willing to let third parties do the lens development for these cameras--maybe even was licensing them to do so. It seemed plausible at the time but now I'm thinking...why would Canon want to give up that market?


I don't how much control Canon has over the moderate price prime market once third party manufacturers can produce back engineered compatible lens mounts or how much Canon is willing to put into competing for that market. If Sigma wants to sell EF-M primes, Canon might let them do it, figuring that market isn't big enough to fight them for it.


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## SteveC (Sep 13, 2019)

BillB said:


> I don't how much control Canon has over the moderate price prime market once third party manufacturers can produce back engineered compatible lens mounts or how much Canon is willing to put into competing for that market. If Sigma wants to sell EF-M primes, Canon might let them do it, figuring that market isn't big enough to fight them for it.



In this particular case...I could imagine Canon actually encouraging them do it under license--"you pay us money, we give you the spec for the M mount--oh, and sign this non-disclosure"


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## BillB (Sep 13, 2019)

SteveC said:


> In this particular case...I could imagine Canon actually encouraging them do it under license--"you pay us money, we give you the spec for the M mount--oh, and sign this non-disclosure"


Sure, that's possible. On the other hand, Sigma might decide to save some money and do what it has been doing--just go with its backengineered mount, and there are a few shades of grey in between these possibilities.


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## mjg79 (Sep 14, 2019)

Well I'm pleased to see any activity from Canon for the M mount and it seems the focus is largely shifting to the cheaper cameras - I suspect they will replace Ef-S with Ef-m.

I have now had a couple of Ef-m cameras and love them. If you accept what they are - an attempt to deliver high quality in a very small package - then you'll likely be happy. Even lenses others dislike like the 55-200 I have enjoyed because they are so much smaller than the Ef-s equivalents. When I've travelled for work I've been able to have a wide angle and telephoto zooms with me, perhaps just to see sunrise from the hotel roof in situations i would never have taken my full frame gear with me. If you're going to make a crop sensor mirrorless at least make it tiny and that's what Canon did.

The quality of all the M gear is great though I am disappointed much isn't made in Japan at least it isn't off-shored to China or Thailand, Taiwan seems a reasonable compromise.

I feel the need to speak up for it I suppose as I so often see it criticised on here but I think the system as a whole is lovely and I hope we get more and more lenses in the future and in particular I want an M5 II.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 14, 2019)

slclick said:


> Someone please create an acronym based upon how Forum members are not typical camera customers.



I agree likely they aren't, yet there's a possibility that they are. Canon rumours guy once mentioned there's 30k subscribers or so, what makes you think they're definitely not typical? 

And even if they aren't, then what? They cannot discuss the rumours and speculate about the cameras they want on the forum dedicated to rumours and speculations?


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 14, 2019)

mjg79 said:


> Well I'm pleased to see any activity from Canon for the M mount and it seems the focus is largely shifting to the cheaper cameras - I suspect they will replace Ef-S with Ef-m.



Yeah maybe they plan to completely separate the crop and FF lines, in which case the crop R camera some people here were envisaging will never happen.


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## BillB (Sep 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I agree likely they aren't, yet there's a possibility that they are. Canon rumours guy once mentioned there's 30k subscribers or so, what makes you think they're definitely not typical?
> 
> And even if they aren't, then what? They cannot discuss the rumours and speculate about the cameras they want on the forum dedicated to rumours and speculations?


But how many of the forum members post on the Forum?


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## M. D. Vaden of Oregon (Sep 14, 2019)

cellomaster27 said:


> man, if canon hired ONE person from the forum.. at random. we'd see some actual developments that are needed. seriously..


 

Let complainers start a company and do better.

Canon is changing over a brand new mount system, actually has a tilt-shift lens selection, has various RF lenses out and coming, and even stuff others don't have like the semi auto 470eX ai flash. There's a lot going on over at Canon. It would take a stoner to miss it.


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## BillB (Sep 14, 2019)

M. D. Vaden of Oregon said:


> Let complainers start a company and do better.
> 
> Canon is changing over a brand new mount system, actually has a tilt-shift lens selection, has various RF lenses out and coming, and even stuff others don't have like the semi auto 470eX ai flash. There's a lot going on over at Canon. It would take a stoner to miss it.


None so blind....


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## privatebydesign (Sep 14, 2019)

M. D. Vaden of Oregon said:


> Let complainers start a company and do better.
> 
> Canon is changing over a brand new mount system, actually has a tilt-shift lens selection, has various RF lenses out and coming, and even stuff others don't have like the semi auto 470eX ai flash. There's a lot going on over at Canon. It would take a stoner to miss it.


I was using that 470EX AI recently, what an amazing little flash, it just works! I wish they had that tech in a 600EX RT that could be used as an on camera master!


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 14, 2019)

BillB said:


> But how many of the forum members post on the Forum?


My point is, it's irrelevant whether they're typical or not. 

Why is it important for them to be "typical"??


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## BillB (Sep 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> My point is, it's irrelevant whether they're typical or not.
> 
> Why is it important for them to be "typical"??


It's only important when people start believing (or fantasizing ) that they are typical.


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## BillB (Sep 14, 2019)

SteveC said:


> A few weeks ago someone was speculating that maybe Canon is willing to let third parties do the lens development for these cameras--maybe even was licensing them to do so. It seemed plausible at the time but now I'm thinking...why would Canon want to give up that market?


Because they don't see enough money it it to be worth the investment with third parties active in a thin market. Don't know whether Canon has given up on the market, but that would be the rationale for doing so.


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## blackcoffee17 (Sep 14, 2019)

Etienne said:


> Another cheapo camera that would struggle to compete with my phone, and without: fully stabilized 4K video, a zillion sharing and publishing options, many many editing options, shallow DOF portrait options. And I'll always have that fully portable nano-studio with me while el-cheapo McCanon with next-to-nothing extra to offer stays at home. No thanks.
> Tick tock, time is running out on the market for mediocre little cameras. Bring the goods or go home. Top notch M5 mk II, and stop the cheapskate crap.



If image quality is next to nothing then you can be happy with your phone. Nobody is forcing you to buy it.


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## slclick (Sep 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> My point is, it's irrelevant whether they're typical or not.
> 
> Typical camera customers not typical forum members. Two very different things and you might get that with some comprehension and a little less devil's advocacy.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 14, 2019)

slclick said:


> Two very different things and you might get that with some comprehension and a little less devil's advocacy.



Again let's assume it's true that forum members are not typical camera customers (which is arguable but anyway).

So I'll just repeat my question, so they cannot discuss the rumours and speculate about the cameras they want on the forum dedicated to rumours and speculations? Or why is it important here that they're not typical?


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 14, 2019)

BillB said:


> It's only important when people start believing (or fantasizing ) that they are typical.



I didn't see it in this thread, but even if someone's believing here they're "typical camera customers", what's the problem?


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## SteveC (Sep 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Yeah maybe they plan to completely separate the crop and FF lines, in which case the crop R camera some people here were envisaging will never happen.



My suspicion is that the Crop R people will end up being served a full frame camera...with a crop mode. (Heck, that already exists if you adapt an EF-S lens to the R mount.) Do that with an 83 MP full frame, and you have a 32 MP crop behind an R mount.


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## Bahrd (Sep 14, 2019)

slclick said:


> Someone please create an acronym based upon how Forum members are not typical camera customers.


NPD. 
There is no need to create a new one...


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## Sharlin (Sep 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I didn't see it in this thread, but even if someone's believing here they're "typical camera customers", what's the problem?



The problem is they’re spamming threads with complaints how Canon is stupid and ******* for not catering to their uncommon use case that they actually think is the norm. Even with bodies that they’re obviously not in the target audience of.


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## SecureGSM (Sep 14, 2019)

cellomaster27 said:


> man, if canon hired ONE person from the forum.. at random. we'd see some actual developments that are needed. seriously..


Unfortunately, it is all about revenue and Bottomline, asset utilisation and cost of goods, productivity and time to value.
It takes an amazingly good sales person, A Dealmaker, a visionary strategist to commit a senior decision maker to a strategy overhaul. Typically, not possible unless there is a alarming financial data to support the claim. Well, I see what Canon is doing now from a strategy standpoint. They bought some time with R body at release, polishing quirks with firmware revisions and continue working on a pro level bodies to support a host of amazing RF glass.
Personally I am convinced that the 5D level R body cameras will be an absolute success.


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## SecureGSM (Sep 14, 2019)

SteveC said:


> My suspicion is that the Crop R people will end up being served a full frame camera...with a crop mode. (Heck, that already exists if you adapt an EF-S lens to the R mount.) Do that with an 83 MP full frame, and you have a 32 MP crop behind an R mount.


You may be correct in circumstances where price is not an issue. And even then. It remains to be seen what the high resolution R camera speed limitations will be like.(fps figure)
But you are looking at US$4000 camera.


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## cellomaster27 (Sep 14, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Unfortunately, it is all about revenue and Bottomline, asset utilisation and cost of goods, productivity and time to value.
> It takes an amazingly good sales person, A Dealmaker, a visionary strategist to commit a senior decision maker to a strategy overhaul. Typically, not possible unless there is a alarming financial data to support the claim. Well, I see what Canon is doing now from a strategy standpoint. They bought some time with R body at release, polishing quirks with firmware revisions and continue working on a pro level bodies to support a host of amazing RF glass.
> Personally I am convinced that the 5D level R body cameras will be an absolute success.



Me too. And actually I'm going to be purchasing the EOS R next month for my trip to Kenya. Just the body and the adapter. I saw the new firmware and I think it's a winner. I've been using my M5 for a while and the touch to focus function isn't terrible even on a small camera. I think its time to part from my trusty 5D3. Should be a good "upgrade".


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## mustafa (Sep 14, 2019)

Enough! Where the **** is the M5 Mk2?

My money's waiting, Canon.


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## scyrene (Sep 14, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> The problem is they’re spamming threads with complaints how Canon is stupid and ******* for not catering to their uncommon use case that they actually think is the norm. Even with bodies that they’re obviously not in the target audience of.



Yeah, this is the issue many of us have. Every rumour thread gets hijacked by the same complaints, even when they're totally irrelevant. So Canon is going to release an entry-level body, and yet you still get people saying 'where's my 7D3/mirrorless 5D/top-of-the-line Sony killer?'; it's boring (and frankly pathetic).


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 14, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> The problem is they’re spamming threads with complaints how Canon is stupid and ******* for not catering to their uncommon use case that they actually think is the norm. Even with bodies that they’re obviously not in the target audience of.


Yeah, but so what?  Let them whine, who cares. Canon won't collapse because of whining.


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## Sharlin (Sep 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Yeah, but so what?  Let them whine, who cares. Canon won't collapse because of whining.



Well, some of us are annoyed by unnecessary noise in our conversations. I'd have thought that most people are. Some of us are also annoyed by being reminded that stupid people exist and are indeed abundant.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 14, 2019)

SteveC said:


> My suspicion is that the Crop R people will end up being served a full frame camera...with a crop mode. (Heck, that already exists if you adapt an EF-S lens to the R mount.) Do that with an 83 MP full frame, and you have a 32 MP crop behind an R mount.


Maybe, but it would only make sense if that crop mode enables faster shooting. Otherwise I'd be pointless.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 14, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Well, some of us are annoyed by unnecessary noise in our conversations. I'd have thought that most people are.


I'm only interested in Canon roadmap because I'm looking for an upgrade. Basically I'm looking into what's available now and what will be available in a few months. Otherwise I don't really care much about Canon profits, market share etc. Likewise I just skip or ignore "Canon is *******" posts.


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## mjg79 (Sep 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Yeah maybe they plan to completely separate the crop and FF lines, in which case the crop R camera some people here were envisaging will never happen.



I suspect so for a few reasons.

The high resolution full frame sensors allow easy cropping. Of course a dedicated crop camera can likely retain high frame rates etc - look at Nikon's D500. I think most would prefer the flexibility of full frame with the exception of those always at the long end eg birders. However they are a relatively small group in terms of getting a product line built just for them and more and more of them will go full frame anyway.

Secondly is ergonomics. I remember lots of people arguing about what size the RF mount would be with regard to allowing small bodies but also not being too restrictive. Well Canon nicely side stepped that - it's a large mount, not as wide as Nikon's but much bigger than Sony. And if you want a small camera? The M series is absolutely tiny even compared to Sony's A7 series. Sometimes it's better not to compromise.

A lot of people think this is some sort of accident and mistake by Canon. I know Thom Hogan, a man I respect, keeps going on about it in industry analysis. He is trapped in the mindset of 10 years ago when Nikon and Canon did manage to get people into their systems with a cheap rebel and gradually took them all the way to full frame in part because of the single mount while also keeping birders using crop cameras as full frame were 12 megapixels.

In the days of SLR this made some sense. The crop cameras couldn't really be that small anyway so you might as well use SLR sized lenses plus it meant two groups - birders and upgraders - were well served by being able to use full frame glass on crop. I think Canon decided to not make decisions just for those groups but instead look at the big picture. The average person is still far more likely to put price and size as the first two priorities. For the average person the M line is perfect, far better than the Ef-S line I think in terms of ergonomics. 

One question it leaves is the 7D user of course. In terms of resolution he will be able to use full frame and crop. But what about size and build quality etc? I would love a tougher version of the M5 with a grip. I accept we won't get tilt-shift lenses etc but looking to competitors like Sigma and Fuji clearly something like an 18-35/1.8 and 56/1.2 would be desirable and allow some nice lenses to sell alongside the kit zooms.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> My point is, it's irrelevant whether they're typical or not.
> 
> Why is it important for them to be "typical"??


It isn't important or relevant to be typical, it is important and relevant to realize your wishes, desires and needs in a camera are not typical of the general camera buying population, and Canon are more interested in the later than you personally.

This means saying things like 'I need uncropped 4k', 'I need 24p', 'I need 15 stops of DR' and then following on with, 'if the next Canon doesn't have 'X' feature they are *******/DOA/I'm jumping ship/I'll get a Sony' is an entirely illogical extension.

Canon for whatever reason, probably expensive market research rather than hysterical guessing, have decided model 'Y' doesn't need 24p or an intervalometer and their sales history points to the fact that they get the price to feature ratio right consistently more accurately than any other camera manufacturer.


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## canonnews (Sep 14, 2019)

i_SH said:


> Canon пожалуйста M5II + пара линз:
> 1. EF-M 12-48 / 1.8-4 ( https://www.canonwatch.com/canon-patent-for-12-48mm-f-1-8-4-0-lens-for-eos-m -система / ). Еще лучше - 11-55 / 1,8-2,8!
> 2. EF-M 55-250 / 2.8-4 + Удлинитель EF-M 2x




it's a shame that like many patents, CW gets it entirely wrong, even though all he does usually is read what I wrote. I've even tried to help and correct him on some of his off base conclusions or comments on patents, only to get into a brick wall against head session after back and forth emails.

here's the original post that CW "copied" and somehow even in that translation, got it wrong:









Canon Patent Application: Various lenses for ... Micro Four Thirds sensor size?


This is a strange lens patent application from Canon. Atypically there are 5 or so different sensor sizes that Canon create lenses for. broadcast cameras, 2/3" compact, 1" powershot, APS-C and full frame. Every now and then, you see strange ones, such as this one, where the image height is...



www.canonnews.com





I mean I even explain why it can' t be APS-C :/

That 12-48mm was for m43 sensors, and not for the EF-M unless they magically shrink the size of APS-C sensors when I wasn't looking.

the 55-250 2.8-4 would be quite large. I doubt you'd see that any time soon (consider the size of a 70-200 f/4)


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## i_SH (Sep 14, 2019)

canonnews said:


> it's a shame that like many patents, CW gets it entirely wrong, even though all he does usually is read what I wrote. I've even tried to help and correct him on some of his off base conclusions or comments on patents, only to get into a brick wall against head session after back and forth emails.
> 
> here's the original post that CW "copied" and somehow even in that translation, got it wrong:
> 
> ...


canonnews, thank you very much for explaining the patent!
I understand that any of the two lenses that I wrote about, unfortunately, is unlikely to appear in life. I really wanted versatility with a minimum of optics.
I have to think about a much more expensive Canon FF camera. I don’t want to sacrifice a possible shallow depth of field and, as a result, a possible bokeh.


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## SteveC (Sep 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Maybe, but it would only make sense if that crop mode enables faster shooting. Otherwise I'd be pointless.



I agree--that would have to be part of it. Less data to pull off the sensor should equal a faster frame rate, presumably very close to the M6 II's. So a slow(er) full frame could also be a fairly fast APS-C. (I don't know how current crop modes work. Do they imply a higher fps as things are currently designed, or would this be a new way for Canon engineers to think about those things, because cropping happens in the RAW file, not the electronics?)

The point has been made that this would end up being a $4000 camera, and that doesn't seem like a ridiculous number for what it actually is. On the other hand, if it's basically what I'll call an R6--it could be fairly slow in full frame mode so long as it speeds up for crop mode, and maybe that can make it less expensive.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 14, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> It isn't important or relevant to be typical, it is important and relevant to realize your wishes, desires and needs in a camera are not typical of the general camera buying population, and Canon are more interested in the later than you personally.



Right, it's a hard mission to teach people to control their wishes, desires and needs. Good luck, Sisyphean job is easy to get but not easy to finish.


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## SteveC (Sep 14, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> This means saying things like 'I need uncropped 4k', 'I need 24p', 'I need 15 stops of DR' and then following on with, 'if the next Canon doesn't have 'X' feature they are *******/DOA/I'm jumping ship/I'll get a Sony' is an entirely illogical extension.



You've cited four possible endings for their if...then statement, and called them all illogical. I think, on the contrary, two of them ARE logical. If the next Canon doesn't have vital (to them) Feature 'X' they absolutely _should_ jump ship/get a Sony. [Assuming Sony has the feature of course.] They're basically using that to extend to the other two...because I should jump ship, so should everyone else, and that's the stupid in their 'logic.'

EDIT TO ADD: All of this, of course, assumes these are real people with actual sincere wants, rather than just paid trolls who don't actually own a camera that doesn't also make phone calls.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 14, 2019)

SteveC said:


> I agree--that would have to be part of it. Less data to pull off the sensor should equal a faster frame rate, presumably very close to the M6 II's. So a slow(er) full frame could also be a fairly fast APS-C. (I don't know how current crop modes work. Do they imply a higher fps as things are currently designed, or would this be a new way for Canon engineers to think about those things, because cropping happens in the RAW file, not the electronics?)



I think if it's ever done, it'll be done at the readout time, not in the raw files. Similar to the 4k crop mode - they don't read the whole sensor in that case. So technically it's all feasible, the question is if Canon ever implements it and how much it will cost.


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## SteveC (Sep 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I'm only interested in Canon roadmap because I'm looking for an upgrade. Basically I'm looking into what's available now and what will be available in a few months. Otherwise I don't really care much about Canon profits, market share etc. Likewise I just skip or ignore "Canon is *******" posts.



I find this entirely understandable. I want to upgrade. I'd like to upgrade to something specific that could (plausibly) come out in the next few months (an M5 II--assuming it comes with viewfinder and flippy screen). Failing that, I can take what is coming out in two weeks (M6 II). Since I don't know their intentions, I have to decide for how long to bide my time before giving up on the still-not-existent better model and buying the Plan B model. I'm essentially delaying a purchase. When I finally do decide to pull the trigger, though, I'll have this nasty suspicion in the back of my mind that once it's too late to return the product, Canon will announce the M5II. At which point I will kick myself, but I WON'T just go buy the M5 II unless I can get almost all my money back for the M6 II.

But my personal dilemma means nothing to Canon--unless enough other people are thinking exactly the same thing, in which case Canon could be delaying sales of the M6 II for no advantage (if they don't intend to release the M5) or sabotaging sales of the M5 II (if they do).


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## Joules (Sep 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> So technically it's all feasible, the question is if Canon ever implements it and how much it will cost.


It is implemented in the M6 II, which can do 32.5 MP 14 FPS 14 bit shooting or use a cropped mode for a 18 MP 30 FPS 12 bit burst mode, if the specs I've read are correct. They should be, but we'll see in less than two weeks anyway.

Edit: An additional thing to note here is that using the burst mode, you'll give up on using a mechanical shutter. If the readout is so fast on the new sensor, that this is not a problem for action, we'll very likely see an equivalent crop mode in the high res R, I think (Going from more than 5.5 FPS at full res to more than 14 at a 32.5 MP crop - assuming it will have a larger throughout than the M6 II).

If electronic shutter only is an issue, this will probably just appear in a really expensive model with a shutter as capable as the one in the 1DX II or greater.


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## scyrene (Sep 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Right, it's a hard mission to teach people to control their wishes, desires and needs. Good luck, Sisyphean job is easy to get but not easy to finish.



Well in principle that is for each of us to learn for ourselves, I don't think it can be taught to others. Call it gaining wisdom.


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## ritholtz (Sep 14, 2019)

Can we use removable evf with M200/M100. I want get something in smaller size to take with me always. I moved to 6d2 from 80d. It is over kill for my needs with very little time to spend on photography. Other option is to just get RP with adapter.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 14, 2019)

SteveC said:


> You've cited four possible endings for their if...then statement, and called them all illogical. I think, on the contrary, two of them ARE logical. If the next Canon doesn't have vital (to them) Feature 'X' they absolutely _should_ jump ship/get a Sony. [Assuming Sony has the feature of course.] They're basically using that to extend to the other two...because I should jump ship, so should everyone else, and that's the stupid in their 'logic.'
> 
> EDIT TO ADD: All of this, of course, assumes these are real people with actual sincere wants, rather than just paid trolls who don't actually own a camera that doesn't also make phone calls.


yes you are entirely correct and I went too far in that suggestion. "I'm jumping ship/I'll get a Sony" are perfectly rational comments and not the same thing as saying 'Canon are *******/DOA/failing/the next Kodak/etc etc.'

Of course experience here is that many more say they are going to jump ship than actually do, and many that don't say it actually do. Personally I think those that make the most noise are just the biggest blowhards and probably don't even have a camera other than in their phone.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 14, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Right, it's a hard mission to teach people to control their wishes, desires and needs. Good luck, Sisyphean job is easy to get but not easy to finish.


Indeed were I to take on that task I would expect it to be an uphill struggle for eternity!

I like to think that if I was a long term Canon user and forum pundit and I needed functionality I couldn't get in a Canon camera I'd buy the camera that did have the feature, I'd use it and then post it here saying 'look this is what a **** can do, Canon lost my business because you can't do this with a Canon'. We used to have two posters here (Eldar and eml58) who both bought medium format digital initially just to try out but we lost them both fully to that medium format goodness, they both posted images from their new cameras pointing out where it whopped 135 formats butt and they moved on.

I use Canon because they have an 11-24 'full frame' rectilinear lens and a TS-E17, both with very high optical quality that no other manufacturer offers. Nothing they don't have comes close to those two things they do have for my personal uses.


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## mb66energy (Sep 15, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> I wonder how the eventual M50 successor is going to look like. Even though one step below the M6II on the product ladder, it may well end up being an extremely attractive camera if it inherits even half of the new goodies _and_ retains the builtin EVF and the full tilty-flippy LCD.


Same here: The M50 won against M5 due to the better display (tilty-flippy) and the high speed movie modes (I use it for physics lessons where the students have to analyse motion, 100 fps is fast enough and easy: 10msec between frames). Builtin EVF is a must - for bright days, setting params easily and sometimes the review under bright conditions without removing my glasses.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 15, 2019)

I'm relatively flexible with my photo gear budget, but medium format is a bit too much for me. The cost of migration to Sony is roughly 2-3k AUD, migrating to the cheapest MF Fuji means 10k+ 'investment' and I'll get a limited choice of bulky lenses and will always be afraid to shoot seascapes. So in terms of an upgrade, I'm looking into what's on the market atm and I'm very interested in the prospective high-res R camera, but I don't really care whether Canon takes right or wrong decisions or whether it gains or loses its market share. Even less I care about someone else's whining about the Canon's roadmap. Although it's fun to read sometimes. 
Also I don't feel I'm loyal to Canon despite using Canon gear for many years. If there's a better and proper option within my budget - I won't hesitate to migrate. Currently Sony 7RIV looks disappointing, so I'm probably stuck with my 5DIV for a while.



privatebydesign said:


> Indeed were I to take on that task I would expect it to be an uphill struggle for eternity!
> 
> I like to think that if I was a long term Canon user and forum pundit and I needed functionality I couldn't get in a Canon camera I'd buy the camera that did have the feature, I'd use it and then post it here saying 'look this is what a **** can do, Canon lost my business because you can't do this with a Canon'. We used to have two posters here (Eldar and eml58) who both bought medium format digital initially just to try out but we lost them both fully to that medium format goodness, they both posted images from their new cameras pointing out where it whopped 135 formats butt and they moved on.
> 
> I use Canon because they have an 11-24 'full frame' rectilinear lens and a TS-E17, both with very high optical quality that no other manufacturer offers. Nothing they don't have comes close to those two things they do have for my personal uses.


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## mb66energy (Sep 15, 2019)

If this camera has the 32 MPix sensor and costs around 400 EUR it might be a great body for "not so often used" lenses staying in the bag for those rare situation. In my case it might be the 11-22mm lens.
Just to explain my idea: I would like to have three bodies for ultrawide (simple body), 50mm f/1.4 equiv or 100mm f/2 macro equiv + f/4 70-200mm(2 x good body) in a small backpack. Just changing cameras, not lenses


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## Kit. (Sep 15, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I agree likely they aren't, yet there's a possibility that they are. Canon rumours guy once mentioned there's 30k subscribers or so, what makes you think they're definitely not typical?
> 
> And even if they aren't, then what? They cannot discuss the rumours and speculate about the cameras they want on the forum dedicated to rumours and speculations?


Yeah, they can, but in the thread dedicated to a m100 replacement it just looks silly.


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## Etienne (Sep 15, 2019)

blackcoffee17 said:


> If image quality is next to nothing then you can be happy with your phone. Nobody is forcing you to buy it.


Oh puhleaassee. 
That's nothing but a camera snob comment. I have the M original, M3 and M6, with the 11-22, the 22 f/2, and the 32 f/1.4. While they provide decent IQ, they are not head and shoulders above a top smart phone anymore. Maybe a few years ago that would have been true.
I have also owned each of the 5D series since the beginning, and you definitely do not need these top cameras for everything, unless you are so arrogant that you think you are creating art every time you push the shutter button.
Canon needs to make these little cameras truly compelling, or just stop making them.


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## SteveC (Sep 16, 2019)

Etienne said:


> Canon needs to make these little cameras truly compelling, or just stop making them.



They obviously think there's a niche for this camera that ENOUGH people will see. If they turn out to be wrong, it's on them, but in the meantime "needs to" advice comes across as someone assuming everyone else shares their evaluation of the camera's worth.


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## Sharlin (Sep 16, 2019)

SteveC said:


> They obviously think there's a niche for this camera that ENOUGH people will see. If they turn out to be wrong, it's on them, but in the meantime "needs to" advice comes across as someone assuming everyone else shares their evaluation of the camera's worth.



I mean, the M100 is _the third best selling MILC_ in Japan, with about 10% market share (the M50 is, naturally, the best seller, with the a6400 on the second place)! Even if they sold _zero_ M200’s outside East Asia, it would likely still be a big hit. Etienne seems to be seriously out of touch with even the most basic facts of what is going on in the camera market.


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## Etienne (Sep 16, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> I mean, the M100 is _the third best selling MILC_ in Japan, with about 10% market share (the M50 is, naturally, the best seller, with the a6400 on the second place)! Even if they sold _zero_ M200’s outside East Asia, it would likely still be a big hit. Etienne seems to be seriously out of touch with even the most basic facts of what is going on in the camera market.


Sure dude,
Check back in a couple years when entry level phones have better cameras than today's top phones. The writing is on the wall for these compact cameras unless they offer something of significant value over a phone.
High end cameras will continue on, which is why we are seeing so many new FF, even in video, and medium formats coming in.
Anyway, camera snobs will always poo-poo smartphones and no evidence can change that.


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## Sharlin (Sep 16, 2019)

Etienne said:


> Sure dude,
> Check back in a couple years when entry level phones have better cameras than today's top phones. The writing is on the wall for these compact cameras unless they offer something of significant value over a phone.



Sure. But given that the M100 probably sells better than, say, all Fuji cameras combined, I’m sure there will be plenty of buyers for the M200 as well. Farther in the future, hard to say, but Canon certainly has a better idea than anyone on this forum.


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## SteveC (Sep 16, 2019)

Etienne said:


> Sure dude,
> Check back in a couple years when entry level phones have better cameras than today's top phones. The writing is on the wall for these compact cameras unless they offer something of significant value over a phone.
> High end cameras will continue on, which is why we are seeing so many new FF, even in video, and medium formats coming in.
> Anyway, camera snobs will always poo-poo smartphones and no evidence can change that.



And if that turns out to be the case...then Canon will discontinue it at that time. In the meantime, though, they will have made a good deal of money off of it filling a need that a cheapass smartphone doesn't--yet--fill.


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## Etienne (Sep 17, 2019)

SteveC said:


> And if that turns out to be the case...then Canon will discontinue it at that time. In the meantime, though, they will have made a good deal of money off of it filling a need that a cheapass smartphone doesn't--yet--fill.


In the meantime Canon will make a good deal of money off of milking camera snobs for profit using cheap-ass tech that provides nothing that a phone can't do better, faster, and cheaper.
Camera snobs are always the last people to get it. I watched as camera snobs claimed that AF would never replace manual focus pros in the film era. I was there there as camera snobs claimed that digital cameras would never beat analog (and these dingbats are still out there), I was there as the video world claimed that AF would never replace a focus puller (now they are couching all their words in fear of the future). Camera snobs are always the LAST people to get it. They will be there clinging to their egos as the power company shuts down the lights and no one in the world cares what they think. 
Smartphones have already replaced the overwhelming majority of what these small cameras are used for. And they often do it better. Canon won't stop releasing incremental updates, not because the new cameras offer valuable functions, but because camera snobs believe they are valuable. Canon will happily separate suckers from their money. And I do not blame them. But they are not getting my money for nothing.


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## blackcoffee17 (Sep 17, 2019)

Etienne said:


> In the meantime Canon will make a good deal of money off of milking camera snobs for profit using cheap-ass tech that provides nothing that a phone can't do better, faster, and cheaper.
> Camera snobs are always the last people to get it. I watched as camera snobs claimed that AF would never replace manual focus pros in the film era. I was there there as camera snobs claimed that digital cameras would never beat analog (and these dingbats are still out there), I was there as the video world claimed that AF would never replace a focus puller (now they are couching all their words in fear of the future). Camera snobs are always the LAST people to get it. They will be there clinging to their egos as the power company shuts down the lights and no one in the world cares what they think.
> Smartphones have already replaced the overwhelming majority of what these small cameras are used for. And they often do it better. Canon won't stop releasing incremental updates, not because the new cameras offer valuable functions, but because camera snobs believe they are valuable. Canon will happily separate suckers from their money. And I do not blame them. But they are not getting my money for nothing.




I have a phone and love it and would be happy to have better phone cameras with multiple focal lengths and hope one day they will be good enough to replace and 1 inch compact.

But compared to APS-C the IQ is still night and day difference, except for the best of lighting conditions.
Let's not talk about low light performance, interchangeable lenses, flashes, ergonomics, speed etc, etc.
So i will keep buying and using dedicated cameras and lenses for a long time.

Of course, camera companies could and should offer more and there is no excuse for example why a phone JPEG looks more pleasant than an out of camera jpeg in many cases. Canon could have released at least 2-3 more primes for the M and 1-2 F4 zooms at least. Or added even a cheap EVF to the $1000 M6. But adding more features won't save the low end market from phones.

Phones are eating the market not because they are better - they are much worse in most ways - but because of convenience and they are good enough for casual situations.

Camera companies cannot do anything if someone is happy with the IQ of a phone and images resized to web use. Those users won't care if everything is a mush on the picture when viewed at 100%, they just want to record a memory. And they won't buy a separate camera even if it's a Nikon D850 in a pocketable size.

So probably enthusiast and PRO market will survive, they rest will go to the phones.


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## scyrene (Sep 17, 2019)

Etienne said:


> In the meantime Canon will make a good deal of money off of milking camera snobs for profit using cheap-ass tech that provides nothing that a phone can't do better, faster, and cheaper.
> Camera snobs are always the last people to get it. I watched as camera snobs claimed that AF would never replace manual focus pros in the film era. I was there there as camera snobs claimed that digital cameras would never beat analog (and these dingbats are still out there), I was there as the video world claimed that AF would never replace a focus puller (now they are couching all their words in fear of the future). Camera snobs are always the LAST people to get it. They will be there clinging to their egos as the power company shuts down the lights and no one in the world cares what they think.
> Smartphones have already replaced the overwhelming majority of what these small cameras are used for. And they often do it better. Canon won't stop releasing incremental updates, not because the new cameras offer valuable functions, but because camera snobs believe they are valuable. Canon will happily separate suckers from their money. And I do not blame them. But they are not getting my money for nothing.



You keep using the word 'snob', but the snobbiest attitude here seems to be your own. The idea that people are buying M series cameras for reasons other than that they suit them best is pretty snobbish for a start. The idea that people who don't find smartphone image quality to be as good as APS-C are doing so because of an attitude problem rather than because sensor and lens size make a difference to IQ is also a form of sobbery - essentially you think you know best, that your opinion is the truth, and anyone dissenting is stupid. That's as pure an evocation of snobbery as I can think of.


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## blackcoffee17 (Sep 17, 2019)

"using cheap-ass tech that provides nothing that a phone can't do better, faster, and cheaper "

What does a phone better? Image details, high ISO, wide angle, macro or telephoto shooting? Ergonomics? AF tracking?
Changeable lenses? Should i say more?


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## blackcoffee17 (Sep 17, 2019)

scyrene said:


> You keep using the word 'snob', but the snobbiest attitude here seems to be your own. The idea that people are buying M series cameras for reasons other than that they suit them best is pretty snobbish for a start. The idea that people who don't find smartphone image quality to be as good as APS-C are doing so because of an attitude problem rather than because sensor and lens size make a difference to IQ is also a form of sobbery - essentially you think you know best, that your opinion is the truth, and anyone dissenting is stupid. That's as pure an evocation of snobbery as I can think of.



Very well said and totally agree.


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## SecureGSM (Sep 17, 2019)

blackcoffee17 said:


> "using cheap-ass tech that provides nothing that a phone can't do better, faster, and cheaper "
> 
> *What does a phone better? *Image details, high ISO, wide angle, macro or telephoto shooting? Ergonomics? AF tracking?
> Changeable lenses? Should i say more?


A: it is always on you and ready to shoot.


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## blackcoffee17 (Sep 17, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> A: it is always on you and ready to shoot.



And small size, better sharing options.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 17, 2019)

blackcoffee17 said:


> "wide angle, macro or telephoto shooting?
> Changeable lenses?


Covered.


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## john kriegsmann (Sep 20, 2019)

Really happy that Canon is continuing to improve Canon M bodies. I wish they would add more high quality native lenses for the system. At the present time there is only the 50mm 1.4 comes close to professional level quality. The rest with the exception of the 3mm f2 pancake lens are cheap kit l lenses that do not do justice to the quality of the Canon M's new sensors and chips.


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## SteveC (Sep 20, 2019)

john kriegsmann said:


> Really happy that Canon is continuing to improve Canon M bodies. I wish they would add more high quality native lenses for the system. At the present time there is only the 50mm 1.4 comes close to professional level quality. The rest with the exception of the 3mm f2 pancake lens are cheap kit l lenses that do not do justice to the quality of the Canon M's new sensors and chips.



Unless there's a whole raft of M lenses I am unaware of (possible but unlikely), there is no 50mm prime for the M series. Nor is there a 3mm prime. Could you have meant the 32mm (which is probably the best M prime lens) and the 22mm (a pancake)?

Aside from that, I tend to agree, it'd be nice if there were more lenses, even some higher-end ones. (I suspect in order for that to happen Canon will have to break with their prior pattern and create lenses with a larger diameter.) This is true especially if all APS-C is going to be M-mount somewhere down the road (maybe, maybe not, who outside of Canon knows?). 

Mitigating this, of course, is the fact that you can use your EF and EF-S lenses with an adapter. You don't get much size savings, but you do get the new sensor, etc.


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## Brikna (Sep 25, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


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## Joules (Sep 25, 2019)

Looks like it still has the M5 / 80D sensor... Or at least they make no mention of it being new or giving uncropped 4K as they did with the M6 II / 90D. Funny enough, the M200 has 4k 24p (And nothing else for non-timelapse 4k). Superior trolling right there. Maybe Canon isn't run by the out of touch old folks like many say, but by S rank meme gods?

Specs: https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...s/mirrorless/eos-m200-ef-m-15-45mm-is-stm-kit


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## Sharlin (Sep 25, 2019)

Hands on with the Canon EOS M200


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