# Hejnar Macro Rails



## chrysoberyl (Feb 5, 2018)

I am becoming more interested in real macro and have realized the importance of having a macro rail. I am open to all recommendations, but the Hejnar rails look well made. But which is best for me? My likely subjects will mostly be insects, gastropods and mineral crystals. Thanks.


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## NancyP (Feb 5, 2018)

Hejnar products are well designed. The standard rails are suitable for up to 1x magnification. The vernier-equiped rails are for 1X and greater, in general. Note the degree of travel that you get with standard rail (lots, but increments less fine) vs vernier rail (very little, but increments are extremely fine). All are manually operated. Standard rails also provide for fine adjustment of camera body position, sometimes a bit of a PITA without a rail. 

Are you doing focus stacking?

Another option is an automated focus stacking rail with the motorized Cognisys Stackshot system.


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## chrysoberyl (Feb 5, 2018)

NancyP said:


> Hejnar products are well designed. The standard rails are suitable for up to 1x magnification. The vernier-equiped rails are for 1X and greater, in general. Note the degree of travel that you get with standard rail (lots, but increments less fine) vs vernier rail (very little, but increments are extremely fine). All are manually operated. Standard rails also provide for fine adjustment of camera body position, sometimes a bit of a PITA without a rail.
> 
> Are you doing focus stacking?
> 
> Another option is an automated focus stacking rail with the motorized Cognisys Stackshot system.



Thanks very much! I will not be stacking any time soon, but thanks for the suggestion. I found the Canon Rumors thread on Hejnar rails and am planning to buy a 'screw-adjusting macro rail'.


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## snappy604 (Feb 5, 2018)

I've done some ok Macro, but would like to get to the next level myself. That rail seems expensive, but don't know why vs say a $40 from amazon. Any advice on what to look for and alternatives? 

Also been curious.. can this really be used on bugs unless you freeze/kill them? most move too fast (other than spiders waiting for prey) .. I use the Canon 180mm Macro for reference


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## chrysoberyl (Feb 5, 2018)

snappy604 said:


> I've done some ok Macro, but would like to get to the next level myself. That rail seems expensive, but don't know why vs say a $40 from amazon. Any advice on what to look for and alternatives?
> 
> Also been curious.. can this really be used on bugs unless you freeze/kill them? most move too fast (other than spiders waiting for prey) .. I use the Canon 180mm Macro for reference



Ha! I intend to shoot stationary bugs only, especially spiders and dragonflies. I see no need to chill or kill.

Search 'Hejnar' in the forum for a good discussion of macro rails. My thought is to buy a good one to begin with, rather than upgrade later. I am also concerned that the cheaper ones will be wobbly and/or fall apart under the weight of a 180mm macro + camera. A little wobble when you are shooting macro could really through your focus off.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 5, 2018)

I'd suggest looking into Macro photography carefully before jumping in.

Macro rails are the easiest and most popular method, but not the best. A long throw lens where you manually focus beats and proper use of a bellows setup is better.

Since you are considering a rail, check out this video by one of the best Macro Photographers. 

https://lensvid.com/gear/choosing-the-best-focusing-rail-for-macro-photography/


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## snappy604 (Feb 5, 2018)

Long video, got about half way through.

hmm.. so in order of quality he goes Bellows, turning the focus ring, then last macro rails. Not what I was expecting or am I hearing it wrong?

I doubt I'd get a bellows, but now wondering if bothering with macro rails is worth while. Also now sorely missing Magic Lantern capabilities... on my 7d you could put it on and have it focus step which was great for stacking... but not avail for my 80d (yet)..


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## Zeidora (Feb 6, 2018)

I have had the cheap Amazon rails (including Velbon x/y versions). The problem with most is the wobble. Second is the lack of Arca style QR. While generally a RRS fan, their macro rail gets less than stellar reviews, so bought a Hejnar and quite happy with it. It is the MS5P-8, works well at 1:1, can do some simple stacking. With MPE 65 it is a bit trickier, but still works ok. One turn of knob = 1.06 mm stage travel, so if your DOF is about 250 microns (1/4 turn) that can be done manually. At 1:1 at f/2.8 you are about at limit. at 5:1 and f/2.8 DOF is around 0.04 mm, so a bit tricky to do that consistently with a helical thread.

Re vernier callipers, just depends on the magnification you need. If you go much above 5:1, then certainly vernier. Or Stack-Shot. >>5:1 without stacking, I don't see the point. Stacking is so much easier with Stackshot. Just make sure to get the X3 controller even if you only use single axis. 

Re bellows, had them, and recently got one back for UV reflectance z-stacking with an M39 enlarger sense (Nikon EL 80/5.6 silver). The problem is the additional bayonets and their intrinsic play. Camera-lens: one junction. Camera-bellows-lens: two junctions. Then there is also some play in the front and rear standards. They have certain utilities (e.g. T/S options with some, WA lens reversal, mounting 160 mm tube length microscope lenses with RMS adapter, ...), but a blanket "bellows is better for macro" is nonsense. There are also distinct problems, such as handholding a below set-up [good luck!], fragility of the system, light leaks, ground clearance, to name just a few. Only get a bellows if you really need it.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 6, 2018)

A Bellows is definitely limited to those who have the right situation for one, same for a rail or long throw lens. There are different build qualities for each.

I would be concerned about oil on the threads of a center adjustable rail, I'm prone to making a mess of things. Its hard to get a unbiased review unless its from someone who has each design and is able to compare them side by side.

I have a Minolta autobellows III and have no serious issues with it, but it is big and certainly not something to hand hold. I'd have a hard time believing anyone who claims they could shoot 100 incrementally focused frames using either of the 3 methods handheld. 

I'm a normally a hand held close focus shooter, and use my 100L with autofocus and holding my breath. It works as well as could be expected, considering my low level of talent.

I bought a vintage German Made rail, beautiful machining, but not up to par, so I sold it. I've held off of spending $350 or more including A-S clamp for a nice rail, or even more for a top quality long throw lens.

Every once in a while, I search for a good rail that would work for me.


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## snappy604 (Feb 6, 2018)

thanks, I find I learn more from folks who have different systems and basically I think while in my head I'd hoped a macro rail would help, it probably wouldn't help me much due to speed and some possible artifacts as you stack via rail (If I heard the article attached correctly)

I've had decent results handheld (see attached) with the 180mm + 1.4x extender and a flash/diffuser combo (manual focus). But the closer/higher magnification gets super tricky and as people noted the DOF gets crazy small.. I've had 2mm ants where the antenna is in focus and the eye is not.

Really impressed with some macro work I've seen, but not sure how to get from where I am to what I see on some photos.


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## Zeidora (Feb 6, 2018)

One more thought. If you shoot vertically, then rack and pinion may not hold your set-up, while helical thread will. The Hejnar hods my gripped 5DsR, with Zeiss macro plus MT24/26 no problem. With rack and pinion either you can lock it, or it will not hold, but smooth movement that also holds is out of the question. The Stackshot can also deal with pretty heavy set-ups.


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## chrysoberyl (Feb 6, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:



> I'd suggest looking into Macro photography carefully before jumping in.
> 
> Macro rails are the easiest and most popular method, but not the best. A long throw lens where you manually focus beats and proper use of a bellows setup is better.
> 
> ...



Thank you, but I will be using my kit in the field and a bellows setup just looks too cumbersome. It is also more expensive than I wish to invest. Interesting video.


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## chrysoberyl (Feb 6, 2018)

Thanks for the additional input, Zeidora. I ordered a MS5P_8.

Has your copy needed lubrication?


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 6, 2018)

Zeidora said:


> While generally a RRS fan, their macro rail gets less than stellar reviews...



I’ve used Velbon rails and agree that wobble is the main issue, especially with a heavier rig. I have the RRS rails, and I am happy with them. Agree they’re good up to 1-2x, less effective >3x. 

Regarding using a long focus throw, to the extent that a lens exhibits focus breathing (and most macro lenses have significant focus breathing, for example Canon’s 100/2.8L Macro IS is ~68mm at the MFD), the changing framing and magnification can be problematic for focus stacking, so a rail or Stackshot is a better choice.


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## Zeidora (Feb 7, 2018)

chrysoberyl said:


> Thanks for the additional input, Zeidora. I ordered a MS5P_8.
> 
> Has your copy needed lubrication?


No. Have it only for about a year now, and don't use it very much. I mostly use the StackShot, but I like to have a low tech option.


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## stevelee (Feb 7, 2018)

My macro shots this week have been handheld using the flippy screen on my 6D2 for composition. The crocuses in the front yard are blooming, and of course are so close to the ground that much of a setup would be a lot of trouble. I also used autofocus and autoexposure. Results were surprisingly good, and I posted some in the macro pictures of flowers thread.

Back in 2014 shortly after I got the 100mm macro, I bought a $20 focusing rail, 6" Dot Line Adjustable Camera Platform from B&H. I found it more than adequate for my purposes, mainly focus stacking. It seems stable enough in my limited use. Photoshop does a good job with the stacking, there again in my limited experience.


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## Zeidora (Feb 7, 2018)

stevelee said:


> Photoshop does a good job with the stacking ...



Maybe for 3-4 frames, but once you hit 50-200 frames in >>1:1 macro, PS is completely useless (tested CS5.5 back in the day resulted in a smeary mess). ZereneStacker and HeliconFocus are the applications you want to use. AffinityPhoto is doing an OK job, but still not as good as ZS or HF.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 7, 2018)

Unless you are very critical, and I mean very, a rail will likely work just fine for most of us. A used Olympus can be had for a reasonable price from ebay, but you have to watch for one.


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## stevelee (Feb 7, 2018)

Zeidora said:


> stevelee said:
> 
> 
> > Photoshop does a good job with the stacking ...
> ...



I think I tried it in the 5-6 frame range with good and fairly predictable results. I don't envision needing more than that for anything I'd want to do. And I doubt I have the patience for 50-200 shots of anything, or have a clue as to why I'd need them (the two obviously go together). My macro lens goes just to 1:1. I have some cheap extension tubes, but can't control the aperture, so shooting everything wide open. They did give me enough fun playing with them to let me know I wanted a macro lens. And I got one picture of detail of a mum flower that I really like and have a framed 16" x 20" of it in my living room. I just posted a small version of it on the macro flower thread.

But I certainly don't doubt that one can benefit from more specialized software, if one knows what one is doing (unlike me). My point was to suggest that we clueless duffers can get some good results for what we want, just adding a bit of cheap hardware and using software we already have.

Is there some example of how (and why) you use such big stacks that you can explain without a lot of trouble?


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## gruhl28 (Feb 7, 2018)

I have the RRS rail. The only issue I have with it is that when you lock it down there is a bit of image shift. 

I had read that using a rail was better for stacking than changing focus, but I'm not sure I agree with that now having some experience. Sure, focus breathing is an issue, but framing changes when using a rail also, and not only that but relative positions of objects change when moving a camera, which cause issues with focus stacking.


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## stevelee (Feb 7, 2018)

gruhl28 said:


> I have the RRS rail. The only issue I have with it is that when you lock it down there is a bit of image shift.
> 
> I had read that using a rail was better for stacking than changing focus, but I'm not sure I agree with that now having some experience. Sure, focus breathing is an issue, but framing changes when using a rail also, and not only that but relative positions of objects change when moving a camera, which cause issues with focus stacking.



Issues with just changing focus were what caused me to get a rail. The latter generally works better for me, but the range that works is rather limited close to 1:1.


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## gruhl28 (Feb 7, 2018)

stevelee said:


> gruhl28 said:
> 
> 
> > I have the RRS rail. The only issue I have with it is that when you lock it down there is a bit of image shift.
> ...



I haven't really tried much yet with changing focus, just recently realized that the changing relative positions when moving using the focus rail was what was causing the stacking problems. What issues did you have with changing focus?


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## chrysoberyl (Feb 7, 2018)

Zeidora said:


> Or Stack-Shot. >>5:1 without stacking, I don't see the point. Stacking is so much easier with Stackshot. Just make sure to get the X3 controller even if you only use single axis.



So then I had to check out Stackshot. Oooh, looks sweet! I'm likely to keep the rail for field work. But if my obsession intensifies...


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 7, 2018)

Changing focus works best using a lens with rear focus group, since the entrance pupil then stays fixed. Some lenses are much better for the changing focus method than others.

A Voitlandar125mm Macro is excellent for the focus method, 630 degree rotation focus ring 

They are over priced though. $$$$ so thats out for me, unless I find one at a estate sale cheaply.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Voigtlander-Macro-APO-LANTHAR-SL-125mm-f-2-5-Lens-Native-EF-mount-Excellent/173126327708?epid=101744630&hash=item284f221d9c:g:5AsAAOSwz7NabhB2

https://www.ebay.com/itm/EXCELLENT-Voigtlander-Macro-APO-Lanthar-125mm-F2-5-SL-Lens-w-Hood-from-JAPAN/323048548430?hash=item4b3731a84e:g:~6AAAOSwZLhY26-i


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## Zeidora (Feb 8, 2018)

stevelee said:


> Is there some example of how (and why) you use such big stacks that you can explain without a lot of trouble?



I shoot small flowers with MP-E 65 at up to 5:1 with 5D2 and up to 4:1 with 5DsR. At 4:1 f/2.8 DOF is 53 µm, stacking steps = 70% of DOF = 37 µm. Flower are about 1.5 mm long plus rachis of inflorescence, and flowers in back of inflorescence so say 4 mm travel. 4000 µm : 37 µm/step = 108 steps. 

I shoot fully open because that gives sharpest images. Effective f-stop is f/14 when setting lens to f/2.8, so just about at diffraction limit for 5DsR. On those photos I can see individual cells of the flowers. I compare that then to my scanning electron micrographs, which are B&W only. So the stacked images give me color, the SEM gets me detail. I also stack on stereo and compound microscope, but that's a different story again.

I go through that trouble for ongoing research into systematics of orchids. Those images get published in peer reviewed scientific journals, and I use them in my talks. 

Processing 100 5DsR images, first from RAW to 16-bit tif in DXO, then stack in Zerene takes about 10 minutes on a 6 core MacPro desktop. Looking forward to the new MacPro, rumored to have 32 cores or so. 

I know, a bit out there ... but people like me exist.


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## Zeidora (Feb 8, 2018)

chrysoberyl said:


> Zeidora said:
> 
> 
> > Or Stack-Shot. >>5:1 without stacking, I don't see the point. Stacking is so much easier with Stackshot. Just make sure to get the X3 controller even if you only use single axis.
> ...



Yep! My X3 set-up just lives on top of one tripod. The old single axis is used to control a stepper motor on the fine focus of my compound microscope, and the Stackshot controller is run from a laptop with Zerene. The Hejnar rail is just for occasional outdoor work.


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## stevelee (Feb 8, 2018)

gruhl28 said:


> I haven't really tried much yet with changing focus, just recently realized that the changing relative positions when moving using the focus rail was what was causing the stacking problems. What issues did you have with changing focus?



I've tried it with just the one macro lens I have. From Mt Spokane's post I gather there are lenses where it would work better. With mine, magnification changes with focus I guess, since closest focus is how you get 1:1.

The lens is the 100mm USM macro. I really like the lens for both macro and farther away. Now that I have a FF camera, it could be my portrait lens until I can afford an 85mm. Wide open it could blur the background pretty well. I've not used it for that purpose since I got the 6D2, so that suggests to me that a portrait lens would not be a priority until I have other gaps in my lens arsenal filled. I used the 50mm f/1.4 for that purpose on my Rebel, and hadn't used it for a long time, and still have found no reason to put it on my 6D2. So I'm not one of the people crying for an improved 50mm prime.

The kit 24-105mm STM has turned out to be more useful than I would have expected. The pictures I have made of people with it showed them in the context of the setting, so I didn't need wide lens openings to get what I wanted.


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## Random Orbits (Feb 8, 2018)

gruhl28 said:


> I have the RRS rail. The only issue I have with it is that when you lock it down there is a bit of image shift.
> 
> I had read that using a rail was better for stacking than changing focus, but I'm not sure I agree with that now having some experience. Sure, focus breathing is an issue, but framing changes when using a rail also, and not only that but relative positions of objects change when moving a camera, which cause issues with focus stacking.



I find the rail works ok with the 100L up to 1:1, but I don't unlock it with the MP-E. The image shift from unlocking, turning the screw and relocking it gives me more problems than changing the magnification/focus plane at higher magnifications.


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## NancyP (Feb 8, 2018)

Hey Zeidora, that's cool!
Tiny orchids! 

I am rather fond of the Spiranthes cernua "Lady's Tresses" terrestrial orchids that are common in Missouri.


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## Zeidora (Feb 9, 2018)

NancyP said:


> Hey Zeidora, that's cool!
> Tiny orchids!
> 
> I am rather fond of the Spiranthes cernua "Lady's Tresses" terrestrial orchids that are common in Missouri.


Here's an illustration from one of my papers. Scale bars are 10 cm for plant, 1 cm for inflorescence, 1 mm for flowers.


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## chrysoberyl (Feb 12, 2018)

I like this rail! Very well made and just what I need.

1 cm calcite crystal.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 18, 2018)

The subject had me thinking about focus rails. I also started researching stacking software.

One interesting and helpful article can be found in the help files for Zerene Stacker. They do not sell rails, so its purely based on the facts as seen by the author.

It has me thinking that either using the focus ring or my bellows would do well for the larger subjects that I do, I currently have no interest in photographing extremely tiny subjects, but then, a motorized screw or a microscope focus block(whatever that is) looks best. I noted that there were only 3 entries for ideal, and all three used the rear of a bellows to vary the focus of larger objects. Some methods are rated excellent.

So, consider what you will be photographing and pick your tool knowing its limitations.








http://zerenesystems.com/cms/stacker/docs/troubleshooting/ringversusrail


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## Zeidora (Feb 18, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> microscope focus block(whatever that is) ..



It is the fine focus mechanism of a microscope stage. Some people get a cheap microscope off eBay, and just strip everything except the focusing mechanism, then use that to focus the camera or/and to move the specimen. Typically, a the travel distance per turn is 100 µm (compared to 1 mm of a screw focusing rail), so you can focus much more precisely. Hejnar make something equivalent with the micrometer screws. 

I personally don't use that. If I need the precision of a microscope focus, I use a microscope. It's much easier to use a tool designed for the job.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 18, 2018)

Zeidora said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > microscope focus block(whatever that is) ..
> ...



Interesting. I have a old microscope out in my shop. Its really heavy and welol built, but too much magnification unless I bought a different lens. I also have a inspection microscope with a ring light around the lens. Its a 5X scope and has a long working distance. I use it to inspect my camera sensor for specs of dirt, but have never bothered to get a simple camera adapter. I guess that I should give it a try someday. I have it mounted on a heavy granite slab to keep vibrations down. Since I calibrated sensitive digital scales, I needed a stable platform and it seemed like a good place for the microscope.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 23, 2018)

My Novoflex Castel XL arrived this morning, bought from a photographer on ebay after some back and forth. Its main usage will be on my light table for product photos. I have a head bolted to it with heavy duty bolts, this will allow me to move my camera forward or backwards a bit, which will make a difference. I can try it for macros as well, but my bellows will do a better job in the studio when mounted on the light table. 

I expect to use the focus method for most closeup photography, I really do not need to go to 1:1 or greater. I have a Canon 50mm f/2.5, a 100L, and a old 55 micro Nikkor AIS I've generally preferred my crop cameras for close focus use, I'll re-evaluate that.

Next is software. Zerene Stacker seems to be very powerful, and is integrated with Lightroom such that it will convert images to tiff for editing. Helicon will control the lens motor for a complete end to end solution, but has a tad less control over the output. Neither of them could handle one stack of images that were too much misaligned due to extreme focus breathing of my 15-85mm zoom. The 24-70mm f/2.8L II had no issues there. I'll be trying primes, I just did not have one on my camera at the time.


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