# D810 users are seeing spots



## neuroanatomist (Aug 19, 2014)

Seems like this issue affects all units in the initial production runs. Good job by Nikon to quickly acknowledge the issue and offer a fix. 

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Service-And-Support/Service-Advisories/hyvanded/Technical-Service-Advisory-for-Users-of-the-Nikon-D810.html

Guess they learned something from the D600 oil/dust spot fiasco.


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## ahsanford (Aug 19, 2014)

*Nikon D810 Product Advisory*

FYI on Nikon's latest postmarket findings:
http://www.thephoblographer.com/2014/08/19/nikon-europe-issues-product-advisory-d810/

I'm on the fence with this one. Dust with the D600 100% should have been caught in evaluation period before launch. But finding an issue that only shows up in crop mode + long exposures might be more of the weird lightning bolt of an issue you don't find until you release it to the masses.

- A


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## privatebydesign (Aug 19, 2014)

It is amazing how responsive a company can become once a big market flexes its muscles, Nikon and China, GM and the USA.



ahsanford said:


> I'm on the fence with this one. Dust with the D600 100% should have been caught in evaluation period before launch. But finding an issue that only shows up in crop mode + long exposures might be more of the weird lightning bolt of an issue you don't find until you release it to the masses.
> 
> - A



I'm not, long exposures and crop mode should be covered in even the most basic field trial testing protocols, what the hell are these guys doing? Not saying Canon is often any better, but come on, this is basic stuff. It might not affect many users actual images, but should easily be noticed with an efficient testing strategy.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 19, 2014)

*Re: Nikon D810 Product Advisory*



ahsanford said:


> FYI on Nikon's latest postmarket findings:
> http://www.thephoblographer.com/2014/08/19/nikon-europe-issues-product-advisory-d810/
> 
> I'm on the fence with this one. Dust with the D600 100% should have been caught in evaluation period before launch. But finding an issue that only shows up in crop mode + long exposures might be more of the weird lightning bolt of an issue you don't find until you release it to the masses.
> ...



The point is that they denied issues with the D600, and recently agreed to replace all D600's in China with D610's. We'll be seeing those D600's on ebay soon.

Hopefully, they have learned to react when a issue is spotted rather than go into denial. That costs them much more than the eventual fix and loss of reputation.


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## AcutancePhotography (Aug 19, 2014)

I would never buy a new camera model as soon as it comes out. 

With todays manufacturing ethic, it is just two risky.

Same as with the new 7D. I rather other people be the first to buy/find manufacturing and design errors.

It is kinda like walking through a mine field -- I prefer waiting for the other people to go first. LoL


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## ahsanford (Aug 19, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> I would never buy a new camera model as soon as it comes out.
> 
> With todays manufacturing ethic, it is just two risky.
> 
> ...



Yeah, but Canon has a pretty good track record of making field announcements and repairing affected units free of charge.

With _lenses_, I wait for consensus in reviews and play the price waiting game. Their lifecycles are much, much longer. 

But the shorter the product lifecycle, the earlier you have to get in. So with _bodies_, I treat it like a new Apple cell phone or laptop offering. I obviously don't buy _everything_, but when I do make a purchase, I do in on the _very first day_ to maximize the time before the gear is obsoleted or outclassed by something clearly better (not necessarily the next revision, but the game changer new product that forces my hand to upgrade). This is less a matter of 'the pride of owning the coolest new stuff' and more a matter of maximizing the time I can use the item and still have complete support from the manufacturer. 

- A


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## charlesa (Aug 20, 2014)

Have they quantified the fault though? As a dedicated long exposure shooter, one of the things that had driven me away from getting a D800 for long exposure work was that it got way too noisy with exposures over 4 minutes, which is a deal breaker. Not like we can afford a Phase One Achromatic you know Canon!


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## psolberg (Aug 20, 2014)

like the last gen's 1Ds series oily mirrors fiasco on canon's side, nikon learned and that is always good.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 20, 2014)

psolberg said:


> like the last gen's 1Ds series oily mirrors fiasco on canon's side, nikon learned and that is always good.



There is a quantum difference between oil on a mirror, and oil on the sensor or long exposure hot pixels. Besides my 1Ds MkIII's both had and have oily mirrors and I am not concerned enough to worry about it.

Things that don't affect IQ, like oily mirrors, could hardly be called a fiasco, things that do affect IQ, oily sensors (Nikon), hot pixels on long exposures (Nikon), or intermittent unrepeatable AF inaccuracies (Canon 1D MkIII) could. But it isn't really the issue that classifies anything as a fiasco, it is the way the company deals with that issue, Nikon had to be forced to accept the D600 issues by China banning sales of them!


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 20, 2014)

psolberg said:


> like the last gen's 1Ds series oily mirrors fiasco on canon's side, nikon learned and that is always good.



Nikon had to learn the hard way. Did the country with the world's second-largest economy forbid Canon from selling a defective dSLR model in their country?


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## V8Beast (Aug 20, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Seems like this issue affects all units in the initial production runs. Good job by Nikon to quickly acknowledge the issue and offer a fix.
> 
> http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Service-And-Support/Service-Advisories/hyvanded/Technical-Service-Advisory-for-Users-of-the-Nikon-D810.html
> 
> Guess they learned something from the D600 oil/dust spot fiasco.



Who cares about some silly spots? It in no way affects your ability to stroke yourself after intentionally underexposing an image of your cat by five stops, and playing around with the sliders in Lightroom. 

I see psolberg has already joined the party. Surely, dilbert can't be far behind ;D


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## Joe M (Aug 20, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> It is amazing how responsive a company can become once a big market flexes its muscles, Nikon and China, GM and the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll have to agree with this. It's not like the issue shows up under a magenta moon while you stand on your head and take a 5 minute photo of a black bear in a cave. This is something that a lot of people do on a regular basis otherwise you wouldn't see it so talked about so quickly. And unfortunately, like so many other manufacturers, Nikon finally reacted quickly because of so much recent bad press. Good for them that they did respond but I wonder how much the China 600 ban decision had to do with it.


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## Keith_Reeder (Aug 20, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Nikon had to learn the hard way.



They don't learn quickly: back in the day, when I shot Nikon, a solution to the D200's horrible banding problem had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, out of the buggers - and it never did _really_ fix it (for me anyway) on either of my D200s.

That camera is why I'm a Canon shooter now.


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## scottkinfw (Aug 20, 2014)

+1 to that

sek



AcutancePhotography said:


> I would never buy a new camera model as soon as it comes out.
> 
> With todays manufacturing ethic, it is just two risky.
> 
> ...


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## Sporgon (Aug 20, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> It is amazing how responsive a company can become once a big market flexes its muscles, Nikon and China, GM and the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would think it's been rushed to market. Quite a few years ago we sold our digital imaging business to Mitsubishi -the owners of Nikon - (and then ended up buying it back) so I know how these guys work. Nikon will be under a lot of pressure to increase margins, profitability per unit, farming production out to cheaper countries etc etc. I have no way of knowing but I would guess that a D810 costs less to produce than a 5DIII. Probably not in the D4s / 1Dx range. Seems to me they are trying to get the D8xx into a guise that will increase its appeal. Adding sRaw is a good start. I just cannot believe that Nikon introduced a 36mp camera without a smaller raw option.

Or perhaps it's intentional because the D820 will be out by Christmas.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 20, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Does anyone here remember how long it took Canon to address issues with the 5D Mark II? It definitely wasn't this quick!



Does anybody remember Canon getting banned from importing or selling a model because of an unacknowledged fault? Nikon were banned from selling the D600 in China.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 20, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Does anyone here remember how long it took Canon to address issues with the 5D Mark II? It definitely wasn't this quick!



What problems were those? I can't find any Canon Service Notices (firmware updates notwithstanding) for the 5DII...


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## Joe M (Aug 21, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone here remember how long it took Canon to address issues with the 5D Mark II? It definitely wasn't this quick!
> ...


That's all I remember, a firmware update (quite quick) for some minor "black pixel" issue where under some circumstances a black pixel or halo could be seen around extreme highlights. Maybe that's the "issue" he's referring to. Again, didn't it get a firmware fix in under a month or something of the sort?


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## Sporgon (Aug 21, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Does anyone here remember how long it took Canon to address issues with the 5D Mark II? It definitely wasn't this quick!



Does anyone remember issues with the 5DII ? Talk about clutching at straws.


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## Viggo (Aug 21, 2014)

If you're going down that route dilbert, at least use the 1d3 as an example :


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## sarangiman (Aug 21, 2014)

Keith_Reeder said:


> They don't learn quickly: back in the day, when I shot Nikon, a solution to the D200's horrible banding problem had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, out of the buggers - and it never did _really_ fix it (for me anyway) on either of my D200s.
> 
> That camera is why I'm a Canon shooter now.



Having issues with banding, and then being satisfied by switching to Canon... now there's something I'm going to have to scratch my head over for a bit.


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## charlesa (Aug 21, 2014)

Hot spots are quite normal during long exposures, how bad is this?


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## MLfan3 (Aug 21, 2014)

*Re: Nikon D810 Product Advisory*



ahsanford said:


> FYI on Nikon's latest postmarket findings:
> http://www.thephoblographer.com/2014/08/19/nikon-europe-issues-product-advisory-d810/
> 
> I'm on the fence with this one. Dust with the D600 100% should have been caught in evaluation period before launch. But finding an issue that only shows up in crop mode + long exposures might be more of the weird lightning bolt of an issue you don't find until you release it to the masses.
> ...



it is not only in crop mode, if you have this camera you know it but it is quite serious issue.
I had it for a couple of weeks, and it is really a big issue.
it sometimes even shows up normal exposure mode such as ISO 6400 1/15th, f4.
it is now a big issue here in Japan and many people here returned it 3 or 4 times to get an acceptable copy.
and this is not first time, but 4 times in a row we found this kind of unacceptable QC issues in recent Nikon FF cameras.
the d600 with dust and shutter issues, the D800 with left AF and sudden freeze up issue, the D4 with battery issue, this one with terrible thermal noise and color issue. I think this is not acceptable at all.
I know all manufactures have some sort of issues but not this bad, and most of what this D810 has over the D800E actually done with FW updates, which Nikon seldom does.
I think most of people even extreme die hard Nikon fans lost respect and faith in them.
as a result , Nikon stock hits really hard and keeps dropping every day.
And for high resolution required work, we do not need or want the mirrorslap anyway, and thus the A7R would be much better choice for most of us.

Nikon is seriously *******.


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## Sporgon (Aug 21, 2014)

*Re: Nikon D810 Product Advisory*



MLfan3 said:


> Nikon is seriously *******.



Wouldn't be good for any of us if they were. 

I can't help wondering if Sony might buy Nikon from Mitsubishi.


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## Maximilian (Aug 21, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> [...] long exposures and crop mode should be covered in even the most basic field trial testing protocols, what the hell are these guys doing?


nowadays problem is, that even system and field tests are "optimized". that means *cost *optimized.
You reduce the test protocols to the min and let the bananas mellow and get yellow in the customers hand.

Pitty, but OTOH todays systems are sometimes so complex, that you cannot cover even 20% of test and use cases.
:-\
But I agree with you: these here should have been tested and detected. Maybe the returns from field test came in too late for the scheduled release... 
:


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 21, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone here remember how long it took Canon to address issues with the 5D Mark II? It definitely wasn't this quick!
> ...



I received on of the first 5D MK II's about November 27, and a week or so later, on December 8, reports of a issue from black spots appearing on bright highlights when people shot Christmas lights. NR normally made them go away, so many did not see them. I had to review my shots to find one that had them.

On December 15, about two weeks after the first Camera deliveries, Canon announced that they were looking at the issue. Canon modified the firmware to eliminate them. On January 9, three weeks later, Canon issues a firmware update to fix them.

So, it took ~ a whole month from initial reports to verify the issue, develop a firmware update, test it and release it.

How many D810 users will have their camera fixed in a month?


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## tron (Aug 21, 2014)

The 5DII problem has been solved via a firmware update (If I recall correctly 1.07). I remember this issue because solving it was a prerequisite for me to get a 5DII...

Now, to defend Nikon, if I had a D810 and I was doing a long exposure I wouldn't even think of using it at crop mode.

If problems can be solved in firmware and companies are willing to do so all is well.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 21, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Indeed. Plus, Canon's fix was a downloadable firmware update. Reports to date indicate the D810 fix is also a firmware update, but users must bring/send the camera to a service center for the update to be applied. I suppose that's better than a 'fix' of having to wait for then buy the D820, but still... :

Keep grasping those straws, dilbert. I hear they come in handy if you want to suck.


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## sarangiman (Aug 21, 2014)

*Re: Nikon D810 Product Advisory*



MLfan3 said:


> most of what this D810 has over the D800E actually done with FW updates, which Nikon seldom does.



Like the redesigned mirror & shutter mechanism, the complete lack of OLPF, faster processor, and true ISO 64 along with the shot noise and DR benefits it can bring?



> And for high resolution required work, we do not need or want the mirrorslap anyway, and thus the A7R would be much better choice for most of us.
> 
> Nikon is seriously *******.



That's ironic, b/c the A7R's shutter shock is literally unavoidable (at longer focal lengths), while the D810 at least offers an option for an electronic 1st curtain that - when combined with mirror up+delay - can completely get rid of camera-induced shake. So, despite Nikon's poor implementation of electronic 1st curtain (only available in Mirror Up mode), at least it offers a way to completely eliminate shutter shock. The only way to mitigate it on the A7R is to add a ton of mass to your camera (which kind of defeats the whole point of the little FF wonder), and even then you may or may not completely eliminate it.


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## Harv (Aug 21, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Keep grasping those straws, dilbert. I hear they come in handy if you want to suck.



Neuro, you crack me up. ;D


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## Sporgon (Aug 21, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



I also got my 5DII when it was first released and have never had an issue. Neither have I ever updated the firmware - 'cos I never do 

The 5DII must be remembered as one of the best sorted cameras right from its inception; _not_ a good example to use !


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 21, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Curious that the camera must be sent to a service center for the fix to be applied.
> 
> Kind of like how if you have a 1DC and just want a regular firmware upgrade.



Except that it's adding features to the 1D C vs. fixing a defect for the D810. Oh, and one is a >$10K camera intended for cinema professionals, and the other is a "versatile camera for versatile shooters."




dilbert said:


> Whilst it may not have impacted you, I know people for whom it did delay their purchasing decision until after it was fixed/resolved.



A whole month? How tragic. That's assuming they could even get ahold of a copy in December, 2008 since initial availability was pretty limited. 

Once again, you've managed to make your comic strip namesake look comparatively brilliant.


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## Aglet (Aug 22, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> I also got my 5DII when it was first released and have never had an issue. Neither have I ever updated the firmware - 'cos I never do
> 
> The 5DII must be remembered as one of the best sorted cameras right from its inception; _not_ a good example to use !



HEHE.. that makes me chuckle. 



dilbert said:


> Whilst it may not have impacted you, I know people for whom it did delay their purchasing decision until after it was fixed/resolved.



yup, I remember seeing those xmas light black dot examples and I waited until after a FW update before getting one - but no matter what firmware version I ran on mine, it was a bandy bass terd of a camera.


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## Sporgon (Aug 22, 2014)

Aglet said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > I also got my 5DII when it was first released and have never had an issue. Neither have I ever updated the firmware - 'cos I never do
> ...



Bet I was chuckling a lot louder when I read your complaints of noise in skies shot on the 5DII.

I stand my my earlier remark; the mkII was ( and still is) a well sorted camera.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2014)

Aglet said:


> ...no matter what firmware version I ran on mine, it was a bandy bass terd of a camera.



Maybe if you took off the lens cap and/or didn't push the exposure 4-5 stops in post, you'd have had better luck... :


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 23, 2014)

Aglet said:


> but no matter what firmware version I ran on mine, it was a bandy bass terd of a camera.



Weird. You must have had a dud. Couldn't possibly have been user error.

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/inter211/12086336096/
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/inter211/9181846945/in/photostream/
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/flatworldsedge/8113424031/
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/keris-tuah/6115806294/


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2014)

3kramd5 said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > but no matter what firmware version I ran on mine, it was a bandy bass terd of a camera.
> ...



Seriously?? How can you possibly conclude the 5DII can deliver good images if you are showing shots that were clearly taken without the lens cap properly covering the lens. As everyone Aglet knows, the only way to properly evaluate IQ is to shoot a black frame with the lens cap in place, then push the exposure several stops. How dare you show actual pictures of real scenes shot with the 5DII in some sort of misguided attempt to distract everyone from the proper way to evaluate IQ. What abominable hubris!


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## Aglet (Aug 23, 2014)

3kramd5 said:


> Weird. You must have had a dud. Couldn't possibly have been user error.



I'm sure I did get a dud. Teach me to buy a first run of a new product! (Ooops, i did that again w d800s and XT1, no issues tho except the fuji's light leak)

The 5d2 banding flaw I first noticed in gray midtones and clear blue sky, then discovered I was not the only one complaining about it.
There were 2 sources of vertical banding. One was a FPN read noise with an 8 pixel cycle, like the 7D/60D/etc.

The other was a different issue, and actually the first flaw I'd noticed in the 5D2's smooth midtones. After looking more closely I found the other noise issues. Then I was just seriously annoyed!

But, back to the other banding issue. I've also just discovered it in one of my recently acquired 2nd-hand Fuji XE1s.
About the central third of the sensor is affected. When doing a dust-check at 200mm and f/22, I found this central region was also inhabited by wide bands of slightly lighter-darker areas, but not perfectly regular in alignment. When I shot another test w-o any lens, I could no longer see this issue. So it is some strange sort of interference effect?.. Anyone have a good guess?.. I thot it if was a simple interference it might make radial patterns but it created wider, relatively vertical bands.
When I still had the 5d2 I didn't try a no-lens shot to see if that effect was still there.
If I get some time, I'll post an example from the Fuji, it's very similar.

I suspect it might be minor misalignment of micro-lenses over their pixels producing subtle variations in effective QE.


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## jrista (Sep 2, 2014)

V8Beast said:


> I see psolberg has already joined the party. Surely, dilbert can't be far behind ;D



2Hrs later:



dilbert said:


> Does anyone here remember how long it took Canon to address issues with the 5D Mark II? It definitely wasn't this quick!



Ding Ding!


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## jrista (Sep 2, 2014)

*Re: Nikon D810 Product Advisory*



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > FYI on Nikon's latest postmarket findings:
> ...



This is one of the reasons I'm not fond of the idea of adding Nikon to my kit.

Does anyone know if Sony has had any such problems, and if so, how their customer support of the issue/turnaround time on a fix is?


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## psolberg (Sep 2, 2014)

I'll be renting one this fall to evaluate it with some ultra high DR fall foliage situations and will be sure to apply the firmware update, then report if I'm seeing dots on some long exposures I have planned.


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## sarangiman (Sep 3, 2014)

I'm still trying to find a sunset where some some subject in the scene hits the noise floor of the D810 at ISO 64. I just can't. I need one of those special spectacular sunsets that happen like once a year where the clouds light up half an hour after sunset.

I had similar trouble with a Pentax 645z at ISO 100. These sensors are incredible. 

Remember: shadow SNR is still limited by shot/photon noise. Only extending FWC or sensor size will help here.


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