# Sigma 50 f/1.4 Art Lens Should be Amazing



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 15, 2014)

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<p><a href="http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/01/08/sigma-50mm-f-1.4-art-targets-zeiss-otus-ignores-canon-l-nikon-glass" target="_blank">Imaging-Resource</a> sat down with Sigma at the CES show that wrapped up last week in Las Vegas to talk about the new Sigma 50mm f/1.4 Art lens they announced.</p>
<p>It turns out Sigma’s goal isn’t to top the Canon 50′s in performance, but to get as close as possible to the new king of resolution, <a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1007599-REG/zeiss_2010_056_55mm_f_1_4_otus_lens.html/bi/2466/kbid/3296" target="_blank">the $4000 Zeiss Otus 55 f/1.4</a>.</p>
<p><strong>From Imaging-Resource</strong>

<em>“But the most impressive information we gleaned? When discussing their goals of image quality and sharpness for the lens, Sigma mentioned they’re confident they’ll surpass competitive products from Canon and Nikon and are instead gunning for Zeiss’s new 55mm Otus lens. It’s a serious claim. The Zeiss 55mm f/1.4 Otus lens – with its $4000 price tag — is squarely aimed at high-end professional shooting such as fashion, advertising and editorial work.”</em></p>
<p>A lofty goal indeed.</p>
<p>Source: [<a href="http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/01/08/sigma-50mm-f-1.4-art-targets-zeiss-otus-ignores-canon-l-nikon-glass" target="_blank">IR</a>] via [<a href="http://photorumors.com/2014/01/14/the-new-sigma-50mm-f1-4-dg-hsm-art-lens-should-be-crazy-good/#more-53136" target="_blank">PR</a>]</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## Rienzphotoz (Jan 15, 2014)

A lofty goal indeed! These are good times for the consumer.


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## IsaacImage (Jan 15, 2014)

Let's see the images first.


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## candyman (Jan 15, 2014)

IsaacImage said:


> Let's see the images first.


+1
If the praise is already so high before any raw-pictures have been released, it might become a disappointment because expectations are too high :


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## NancyP (Jan 15, 2014)

For that number of elements/groups and the expected increased weight from all that glass, this lens should be a serious improvement over the existing Canon and Sigma offerings and over the Zeiss Macro-Planar 50mm f/2. 

I am looking forward to this lens and to the Canon replacement, because I am trying to assemble a primes kit and don't have a modern native 50-55mm lens yet. I am using ancient all-manual lenses I had already: Nikkor 50mm f/1.2 (amazing aberrations at f/1.2, can be put to use in a pictorial low-contrast effect, but usable as a regular lens from f/2.8), Mamiya-Sekor 55 mm f/1.4 and 60mm f/2.8 macro, with non-chipped adapters.

Sigma seems to be on a roll. I have contemplated getting a FF walkaround zoom as well, and the Sigma new 24-105mm f/4 behemoth has good reviews (not in local stores yet). I have the Sigma 35mm f/1.4, a very nice lens worth its price and bulk/weight.

Now back to my conditioning program, so I can carry that 35-40 pound photo plus camping pack come springtime.


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## Etienne (Jan 15, 2014)

I'll definitely watch for the reviews.


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## ewg963 (Jan 15, 2014)

Yes that's a very loft goal indeed but I'm excited to see the outcome...


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## ewg963 (Jan 15, 2014)

IsaacImage said:


> Let's see the images first.


+1


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## cliffwang (Jan 15, 2014)

It's nice to hear that. However, where is the lens and reviews?


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## beckstoy (Jan 15, 2014)

I've been following this, but haven't seen an ETA on this lens. Does anyone know?


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## fox40phil (Jan 15, 2014)

Release date hmm? 

Start to save my money now^^...


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## infared (Jan 15, 2014)

I am so glad to hear this about the Sigma lens...I own the original Sigma 50mm, because even with "it's" issues...it was better than any of the Canon lenses to me....WHY???? has Canon not delivered a better 50mm after all of these years? It is the normal lens for FF cameras...it is an important lens format...and big red has just never given it any real respect. For that matter..why has it taken Sigma so long to do this!!!! LOL!!!
...can't wait to see what this lens can do.


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## infared (Jan 15, 2014)

candyman said:


> IsaacImage said:
> 
> 
> > Let's see the images first.
> ...


I am expecting this lens to best all of the Canon offerings but not reach as high as the Zeiss (in price either!!! LOL!)..
plus...we have AF with this bad boy. If you just look at the construction of the lens, 13 elements (I believe)...Sigma is obviously serious about this offering. I am sure it will be a great lens at a decent price. Can't wait!!!


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## rpiotr01 (Jan 15, 2014)

Sold my Sigma 50 1.4 some time ago, AF issues were too much to bear.

I am sure this lens will be awesome in many ways, curious to see sample shots and bokeh. Always thought the bokeh on Sigma 50 1.4 was a little clinical looking, but it's a matter of taste. 

I feel I've been burned by Sigma once, but this lens - along with that USB thing that allowed you to change focus adjustment at different levels between MFD and infinity - may get me to bite again.


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## Albi86 (Jan 15, 2014)

NancyP said:


> For that number of elements/groups and the expected increased weight from all that glass...



It actually weighs "only" 470g. The 35mm ART is 670g, for a comparison.


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## PTRush (Jan 15, 2014)

Will this lens offer image stabilization? I'm guessing, no. crucial for hand held video work~


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## rpiotr01 (Jan 15, 2014)

PTRush said:


> Will this lens offer image stabilization? I'm guessing, no. crucial for hand held video work~



You'll probably be very interested in Canon's 50 1.8 IS offering that should be out in 2014. 

May finally be a good year for Canon 50 mm primes


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## mb66energy (Jan 15, 2014)

I have made a simple synopsis of the sequence of lenses/lens groups and their type (divergent/convergent).
+ means a convergent lens, - a divergent lens, lens sequences without blanks mean lens groups
*
+- -+ Doppelgauß type
+ +- -+ + Planar type
+ + - -+ -+ + EF1.2 50
+ - +-+ + +- -+ +- + Sigma 1.4 50 Art
- - + + + +- -+ - + + Zeiss OTUS 1.4 55
+ - + - + - + - + + EF 2.8 24 as another retrofocus design with positive first element
*

Sigma and Zeiss are similar in their complexity and roughly in the number of lens elements. I expect that the Sigma is much more comparable to the Zeiss OTUS in terms of IQ. But the Zeiss might have an advantage because it uses 6(?) lenses made from different special glass types while the Sigma has only 4 LD glass lenses perhaps of the same glass type. But this might result in a marginally better IQ compared to the Sigma.

But ... truly let's see real images to discuss the IQ!


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## jdramirez (Jan 15, 2014)

I loved my 50mm f1.8 but I was ambivalent to the f1.4. I wanted to love it.. but I just couldn't. 

If the sigma is amazing, I'm in. 35 is too wide for me and 85otoo long. Goldie locks.... don't care... but I will wait a year or two for the 50 to come down in price the was the 35 has. 699 New... on sale... thank you very much.


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## FocalFury (Jan 15, 2014)

Great news even if they fall short of this ambitious target. I will settle for 50L-type resolution  Just hope the AF is up to the task. My first 35 Art had erratic AF and a faulty AF motor that died in a couple of days.


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## Ricku (Jan 15, 2014)

If the 35 1.4 Art, 50 1.4 Art, and 18-35 1.8 Art wont put some pressure on Canon's lens developers, then I don't know what will. 

Well I guess it's like how Sony's Exmor sensor doesn't put pressure on them.

Canon likes to think they exist in isolation.


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## Etienne (Jan 15, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> I loved my 50mm f1.8 but I was ambivalent to the f1.4. I wanted to love it.. but I just couldn't.
> 
> If the sigma is amazing, I'm in. 35 is too wide for me and 85otoo long. Goldie locks.... don't care... but I will wait a year or two for the 50 to come down in price the was the 35 has. 699 New... on sale... thank you very much.



I hated the 50 1.8, and find the 50 1.4 much better. But I am hoping for a new sharp-wide-open 50 1.4 with IS. I'd settle for a well-made sharp 50 1.8 IS.


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## RohamR (Jan 15, 2014)

my gut feelings predict that 2014 is going to be a revolutionary year within photographic equipment. I am ABSOLUTELY sure that Canon will surprise us soon, but will the surprise be as "reasonable" as Sigma? It remains to be seen.


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## BLFPhoto (Jan 15, 2014)

Based on the reports so far, and my experience with the 35mm 1.4 Art, I'm looking forward to giving this lens a good working over when it comes out. 

I have had my Canon 50 1.4 since the mid 90's, and loved it in the film and early digital days. But over the years, as my L lens inventory grew, I used it less and less. It's sharp enough in the mid apertures, but wide open never has really satisfied me, especially in the last few years when the 5D II and 5D III showed its weaknesses. When I got my 35 1.4L around the turn of the century, the 50 1.4 has pretty much sat in my bag, with a 28-70 and then 24-70 L zoom handling the focal range at mid apertures. 

I like the 35 1.4 Art so well that I'm seriously considering giving up my 35 1.4 L. I'm keeping the Canon for another year or so while I see what Canon does for an encore, and while I see what the long-term reliability is for the Sigma. Right now, I'm really pleased with every other aspect of the lens, including all AF-related areas of performance.

Again, if this 50mm 1.4 from Sigma is anything like the 35, I'll be a happy camper. For sure the Canon 50 1.4 will be gone in an instant. It is a necessary evil at this point, even though I love a large aperture 50mm from an artistic standpoint.


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## jdramirez (Jan 15, 2014)

Etienne said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > I loved my 50mm f1.8 but I was ambivalent to the f1.4. I wanted to love it.. but I just couldn't.
> ...



How about this... I love my f1.8 compared to the kit 18-55 is, the 75-300, and the 55-250. When I got around to getting the f1.4, i had a 24-105, a 100m L and I'm drawing a blank on what else. But it wasn't add impressive by comparison.


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## Badger (Jan 15, 2014)

Any one know what the MSRP on this lens is going to be? Don't want to get excited over a lens I can't afford. :-\


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 15, 2014)

Certainly sounds excitingly promising. Although setting the bar THAT high may be a dangerous game. It can easily lead to expectations not met, that otherwise may have been well met. But it certainly sounds like the 50 1.4 and 50 1.2L and all the rest, other than the Otus, will have nothing on it.


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## alexturton (Jan 15, 2014)

Sharpness has never really concerned me with a 50mm prime. I'm more interested in af speed and accuracy


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## mackguyver (Jan 15, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Certainly sounds excitingly promising. Although setting the bar THAT high may be a dangerous game. It can easily lead to expectations not met, that otherwise may have been well met.


Did someone say Leica X Vario? It was over-hyped to hell and while it turned out to be a decent camera (based on the reviews I've read) by the time the announcement was over no one was interested.

Then again, Zeiss wasn't exactly humble about the Otus, but it certainly lived up to the hype and then some. I think much of the hype will disappear if it streets north of $1,000 and/or has poor bokeh or other shortcomings.


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## Ricku (Jan 15, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Certainly sounds excitingly promising. Although setting the bar THAT high may be a dangerous game. It can easily lead to expectations not met, that otherwise may have been well met.* But it certainly sounds like the 50 1.4 and 50 1.2L and all the rest, other than the Otus, will have nothing on it.*


That will be good enough for me. My first 50mm lens!

Been wanting one for ages, but didn't want to deal with the shortcomings of the current offerings.


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## unfocused (Jan 15, 2014)

It may just be me, but I can't get at all excited about any 50mm lens. I just find the focal length uninteresting. I suppose it has to do with how we "see" images, but I find myself composing most shots at either the wide or long end.


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## alexturton (Jan 15, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> I loved my 50mm f1.8 but I was ambivalent to the f1.4. I wanted to love it.. but I just couldn't.
> 
> If the sigma is amazing, I'm in. 35 is too wide for me and 85otoo long. Goldie locks.... don't care... but I will wait a year or two for the 50 to come down in price the was the 35 has. 699 New... on sale... thank you very much.



+1 on your view of the 1.4.


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## westr70 (Jan 15, 2014)

alexturton said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > I loved my 50mm f1.8 but I was ambivalent to the f1.4. I wanted to love it.. but I just couldn't.
> ...



+1 me too. Gonna get rid of it.


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## ewg963 (Jan 15, 2014)

infared said:


> candyman said:
> 
> 
> > IsaacImage said:
> ...


+1


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## CarlMillerPhoto (Jan 15, 2014)

Very much looking forward to this lens. Thought I was gonna get the 50L, but probably not now.


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## greger (Jan 15, 2014)

I don't shoot at 50mm. I bought my 50mm 1.8 for lowlight situations. I would like IS but will stick to what I have for now.


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## jdramirez (Jan 15, 2014)

50 is such a strange balancing act. Too shall and the bokeh suffers. Pleasing bokeh and your subject is blurry. I don't always shot in a studio setting, but when I do I want my subject tack sharp. Then I'll soften in post because no one is that pretty. 

Damn you 50! I was just mulling over the 85 L.... 

You think your out, but they keep pulling you back in!


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## RohamR (Jan 15, 2014)

Cocky or not, but remember that photographers may be the world's most discerning people. By hype up the new 50mm expectations will be developed vigorously. And God bless Sigma if they dont deliver. But if it is near the quality of Zeiss I will buy 2 of it, easy


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## Efka76 (Jan 15, 2014)

I will wait for test results and I really expect that these lenses are going to be superb. Will definitely sell my Canon 50 mm 1.4 and buy these lenses (maybe after 1 year when their retail price will go down).

Canikon will be ashamed  Sigma and Tamron are reaching new levels. Customer wins in such case as these companies offer even better products than Canikon for significantly less price. I really hope that Sigma and Tamron will start releasing very quality big primes which will match or be better than Canon's 300 mm, 500 mm and 600 mm


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## mackguyver (Jan 16, 2014)

unfocused said:


> It may just be me, but I can't get at all excited about any 50mm lens. I just find the focal length uninteresting. I suppose it has to do with how we "see" images, but I find myself composing most shots at either the wide or long end.


I'm drawn to the 24mm focal length myself, but for me, there's a distinct challenge in using the 50mm. It's so "normal" that it takes a lot of work to make distinctive photos with it. I think I remember reading something about Cartier-Bresson having felt that way and it stuck with me.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 16, 2014)

alexturton said:


> Sharpness has never really concerned me with a 50mm prime. I'm more interested in af speed and accuracy



And AF speed and accuracy are the two things the Canon 50mm lenses MOST suffer at, so bring this Sigma on.


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## Artifex (Jan 16, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > It may just be me, but I can't get at all excited about any 50mm lens. I just find the focal length uninteresting. I suppose it has to do with how we "see" images, but I find myself composing most shots at either the wide or long end.
> ...



It would be logical. If I am not mistaking, when he was shooting for himself, Cartier-Bresson only used a 50mm lens. He thought that by always working with the same focal would help it become as an "extension" of his eye. Looking at his work, I can only agree with him.


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## surapon (Jan 16, 2014)

Dear Friends.
Do I need to dump My Old/ Awesome Sigma 50 mm. F/ 1.4 EX, DG, HSM now, And Get this New Sigma Art Lens soon ?
Surapon


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## RGomezPhotos (Jan 16, 2014)

I wouldn't be surprised if this new Sigma will surpass the Canon L glass in terms of performance. Both their new 35mm and 24-105mm have done just that. I think if this 50mm can get within 80% - 90% of the performance of the Zeiss 55mm Otus.. That would be quite a feat. 

Forget about the price of the Otus for a second.. How many reviewers have claimed the Zeiss 55mm Otus as being the best DSLR lens E-V-E-R?  Quite a number of them. I'm thinking the Sigma 50mm will come in around $750 considering the 35mm version comes in around $900. And if you think you're going to get a Zeiss 55mm Otus copy for $750. It's not going to happen. 

Would the Sigma be worthwhile if it has 80 - 90% of the performance of the Zeiss Otus at their price level? Sure! A 2014 Mustang/Corvette are hot cars and totally great. But they are not Ferraris. Whether you like Ferraris or not. There is a reason why you pay a premium.

And that's a great comparison. The lenses will be for two different markets. A pro photographer making $100k+ plus a year shouldn't sweat about a $4k, near-perfect lens. Especially if it's used often for the next 5 years or more. The pro should make an easy $30k a year from using that lens.

I love Sigma for coming out with amazing glass and going for the best. And all for a very reasonable price.


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## jdramirez (Jan 16, 2014)

surapon said:


> Dear Friends.
> Do I need to dump My Old/ Awesome Sigma 50 mm. F/ 1.4 EX, DG, HSM now, And Get this New Sigma Art Lens soon ?
> Surapon



I think when the 50mm art comes out, it will be in a different class and price range, much like the 50 f/1.4 v. the 50 f1.2. If Canon today came out with a new L lens, I don't think the f/1.4 would go down in value... 

I say keep it... if you got a good copy that works really well, don't let it go.


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## Solar Eagle (Jan 16, 2014)

Sigma must have pretty good intel on the likes of Canon and Zeiss. I mean Sigma dropped their 35mm on the table just before the Canon 35 IS; they appear to be doing the same with their 50mm, and they even claim to have been shooting to nearly match the Zeiss Otus, which was just announced a few months ago. Sigma must have known about the Zeiss long ago if they were aiming for it. Then again Nikon had a new 58mm ready to drop as well... Is it common for manufacturers to know what the competition has in development/testing?


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## Rienzphotoz (Jan 16, 2014)

Solar Eagle said:


> Is it common for manufacturers to know what the competition has in development/testing?


I think it is very common ... coz all the companies I've ever worked with, always kept an "eye" on the competitor's future developments ... it would be foolish not to know what your competition is up to. Also, there is the possibility of insider info leaking out to the "highest bidder".


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## TexPhoto (Jan 16, 2014)

Rienzphotoz said:


> Solar Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > Is it common for manufacturers to know what the competition has in development/testing?
> ...


Maybe they know some secret website that publishes Rumors about Canon products? What would you call that?

Yankin you chain a little. I'm sure they do look into these things, but of course the competition may also be consulting with outside... consultants. And they file public patents... Heck, they send press releases.


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## MovingViolations (Jan 16, 2014)

My opinion for this lens is reserved until I have a 24"x48" print in my hands on metallic paper that came from my 6D that I worked up and printed. Maybe Sigma is after $'s they can't conquer with bodies.


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## Rienzphotoz (Jan 16, 2014)

TexPhoto said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > Solar Eagle said:
> ...


 ???


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## Dylan777 (Jan 16, 2014)

As much as I love my 50L II, I will give this 50mm ART a try - I'm impressed with Sigma 35mm art


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## jdramirez (Jan 16, 2014)

Dylan777 said:


> As much as I love my 50L II, I will give this 50mm ART a try - I'm impressed with Sigma 35mm art



I'd honestly like to know what you think about it. I know you hold your 50mm in high regard and if the Sigma can top the L in your opinion, that's good enough for me.


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## Viggo (Jan 16, 2014)

Dylan777 said:


> As much as I love my 50L II, I will give this 50mm ART a try - I'm impressed with Sigma 35mm art



I seemed to have missed the announcement of the new 50 L 8)


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 16, 2014)

RGomezPhotos said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if this new Sigma will surpass the Canon L glass in terms of performance. Both their new 35mm and 24-105mm have done just that. I think if this 50mm can get within 80% - 90% of the performance of the Zeiss 55mm Otus.. That would be quite a feat.



Well it didn't surpass any of the new standard L glass from Canon though, not the 24-70 II nor the 24-70 f/4 IS and it doesn't seem it surpasses the Tamron 24-70 VC either. And the crazy thing is it weighs more than any of them and is only f/4!

And the 35L is pretty old. We will see how it fair against a new 35L.

That said yeah the 35 they made does sound pretty awesome and this new 50mm may really be something.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 16, 2014)

Viggo said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > As much as I love my 50L II, I will give this 50mm ART a try - I'm impressed with Sigma 35mm art
> ...



50 1.0L (50L I) replaced with the 50 1.2L (50L II)


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## Albi86 (Jan 16, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> RGomezPhotos said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't be surprised if this new Sigma will surpass the Canon L glass in terms of performance. Both their new 35mm and 24-105mm have done just that. I think if this 50mm can get within 80% - 90% of the performance of the Zeiss 55mm Otus.. That would be quite a feat.
> ...



It should be said, for fairness sake, that the Canon 24-105 is T/5.1 while the Sigma is T/4.2. The Sigma is effectively 2/3 EV brighter than the Canon.


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## Viggo (Jan 16, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



The mk II is only at the same aperture. The 200 f2.0 is not a mk II although it replaced the 1.8. And it is also marked, or not marked, on the lens itself.


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## wickidwombat (Jan 16, 2014)

if it even gets close to the otus im going to get one


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## Einstein333 (Jan 16, 2014)

*Amazing*

If it will be just as sharp as the new Sigma 35mm f1.4 art is (and I don't see a reason why I shouldn't) it will be amazing and lightyears ahead of its Canon counterpart (at least in terms of sharpness).


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## surapon (Jan 16, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> surapon said:
> 
> 
> > Dear Friends.
> ...



Thanks, Dear my friend jdramirez.
I have a great Old Sigma 50 mm, With Very Lucky = Perfected AF. for all my 5 EOS. Bodies.----BUT, If the Review come up with IQ = Canon 50 mm. F/ 1.2 L , and the price under $ 800 US Dollars, I might Try--If I like, I might Trade in with the new ART Lens.
Well You are right, I use this Awesome sigma 50 mm . just yesterday, 1 day, to try with my new EOS-M---Most of the Time, I use Canon Ts-E 24 mm. F/ 3.5 L MK II for every days Photos, and 70-200 mm F/ 2.8 L in another Camera., And If I want to shoot Portrait Photos, Canon EF 85 MM. F/ 1.2 L MK II is a must.
Have a great day, Sir.
Surapon


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## jdramirez (Jan 16, 2014)

For what it is worth, I'm starting to get annoyed with all the vague-eries that we grade lenses by. This build quality is better than this one. Don't drop your lens and the fact that space age plastic v. A metal housing shouldn't come into play. This lens has a magic bokeh, but this lens's bokeh makes me want to wretch. That reminds me of the one part in Bamboozled where the one producer says, You want to know how I know it is good? Because my d!x hard. I'm paraphrasing of course but praising one lens doesn't mean disparaging another. I'm rambling... Damn it.


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## Eldar (Jan 16, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> For what it is worth, I'm starting to get annoyed with all the vague-eries that we grade lenses by. This build quality is better than this one. Don't drop your lens and the fact that space age plastic v. A metal housing shouldn't come into play. This lens has a magic bokeh, but this lens's bokeh makes me want to wretch. That reminds me of the one part in Bamboozled where the one producer says, You want to know how I know it is good? Because my d!x hard. I'm paraphrasing of course but praising one lens doesn't mean disparaging another. I'm rambling... Damn it.


There are some qualities that are objective and there are some qualities that are more subjective. We measure the objective ones and we quarrel over the subjective ones.

Two very good examples are the Canon 50 1.2L and 35 1.4L. From a pure objective measurement perspective, these are fairly poor. But looking at the right images from these two, they are producing stunning results. That's subjective, but still an obvious quality. How do you measure build quality or one weather sealing compared to another? AF speed can be measured, but AF accuracy (where is the threshold for being accurate?) is subjective etc. etc.

In my view we spend too much time pixle peeping and reading graphs and statistics. One of my ohter passions in life is music and high end audio systems. Compared to that domain, photography is like mathematics


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## Dylan777 (Jan 16, 2014)

Viggo said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > As much as I love my 50L II, I will give this 50mm ART a try - I'm impressed with Sigma 35mm art
> ...



I was on my 4th glass of red wine last night when typing that statement ;D

"As much as I love my 50L II f1.2, I will give this 50mm ART a try"


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## anbjerknes (Jan 16, 2014)

I have been very impressed with Sigma recently and their 35mm Art lense is just beautiful. If the 50mm turns out to be of similar quiality and with an optical performance that matches the build and feel of the lens, then I think I might be tempted to add one to my collection.


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## jdramirez (Jan 16, 2014)

Thank god I'm not am audiophile. It does annoy me when the family listens to the tv through the tv speakers. How can you not hear the difference between that and the 5.1 system? It is like chef boy r Dee v olive garden. 



 Eldar said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > For what it is worth, I'm starting to get annoyed with all the vague-eries that we grade lenses by. This build quality is better than this one. Don't drop your lens and the fact that space age plastic v. A metal housing shouldn't come into play. This lens has a magic bokeh, but this lens's bokeh makes me want to wretch. That reminds me of the one part in Bamboozled where the one producer says, You want to know how I know it is good? Because my d!x hard. I'm paraphrasing of course but praising one lens doesn't mean disparaging another. I'm rambling... Damn it.
> ...


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## mackguyver (Jan 16, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> Thank god I'm not am audiophile. It does annoy me when the family listens to the tv through the tv speakers. How can you not hear the difference between that and the 5.1 system? It is like chef boy r Dee v olive garden.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To chime on this discussion, I have some high end audio gear, but I'm not an audiophile. No cone stabilizers, $2,000 power cables, or the like for me, but yes, my 7.1 system blows the doors off TV speakers!

Unlike the "warm sound of tube amplifiers" or "wide sound stage of a balanced XLR interconnect", I think the qualities of these lenses can be objectively explained for the most part. 
* Better build quality = more reliable lenses, lenses that can be used in harsh conditions, and lenses that will last longer.
* Better bokeh is more natural and pleasing to the eye because it is less distracting than "bad" bokeh and it comes from three things:
1. Bigger physical apertures along with circular apertures result in larger "blobs" of out-of-focus light that result in simpler backgrounds/foregrounds 
2. Circular apertures result in smoother out-of-focus "blobs" that appear more natural to our eyes vs. distinct hexagonal, pentagonal, etc. shapes
3. Lens (elements) designed for good bokeh have less "ringing", "'onion'-like substructures", false color, and other artifacts in the "blobs' that are distracting to the eye
* The "magical quality" that lenses like the 50L, 85L, and 135L have come from the smooth bokeh, shallow depth of focus one can obtain from them, the slight softening of the skin that is flattering, and in some cases from the halation associated from their optics, particularly when used wide open.


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## Radiating (Jan 16, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> For what it is worth, I'm starting to get annoyed with all the vague-eries that we grade lenses by. This build quality is better than this one. Don't drop your lens and the fact that space age plastic v. A metal housing shouldn't come into play. This lens has a magic bokeh, but this lens's bokeh makes me want to wretch. That reminds me of the one part in Bamboozled where the one producer says, You want to know how I know it is good? Because my d!x hard. I'm paraphrasing of course but praising one lens doesn't mean disparaging another. I'm rambling... Damn it.



A lot of photographers do not know how to quantify different aspects of a lens. There are objective ways to do so. A old of the confusion stems from rating the color contrast bokeh, bokeh transitions, distortion, and vignette. These are all things you can measure. For example Nikon has two defocus control lenses that let you play with bokeh rendering. There is a pleasing way to render these things and an ugly way. 

The 50mm L f/1.2 objectively has some of the best bokeh and bokeh transitions on earth, as well as excellent color and contrast you can analyze the Out of focus areas and see they are some of the least flawed ever and look at color chart photos and see excellent rendering. The lens also delivers resolution that is visibly lacking at 720P, which makes it one of the worst lenses available for resolution. The 50mm 1.4 from Canon has better resolution but has some of the worst bokeh I have ever seen. It's extremely busy and ugly wide open so I only use it stopped down. 

As I mentioned in the other thread though all 50mm full frame lenses have used an archaic lens design called the double gauss design. This lens design is very simple and delivers good stopped down performance but inherently cannot deliver good wide open peformance. All 50mm double gauss lenses deliver image quality that is 5-10 times worse wide open than any other modern pro lens, with low resolution high haze and glow, and high CA. That's a mind blowing difference and is like comparing an iPhone to a d800e, literally. Zeiss was the first ever normal lens to use a retro focal design and Sigma will be the second. So Sigma is not kidding when they say that they will make anyone but Zeiss obsolete, there is no question that they are not even trying to compete with Canon or Nikon, and will be clearly superior. Were talking around an order of magnitude difference in performance. Guns vs nuclear weapons. Sigma has gone nuclear on Canon's 50mm lineup. 

Here's the difference you can expect wide open between any non retro focal 50mm and this Sigma:







Sigma's design already inherently has good bokeh and it should have pleasing distortion and vignette.

So basically this lens will be like a higher resolution version of the 50mm 1.2L


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## mackguyver (Jan 16, 2014)

Radiating said:


> Sigma has gone nuclear on Canon's 50mm lineup.


I think you should revise this to say "Sigma has gone nuclear on Canon's *Prime *lineup."  

I'm all for competition and keeping the big guys on their toes. The Zeiss didn't serve that purpose because of its price, but this might give Canon a kick in the pants to revisit the 50L. I hope the new Sigma is a near-Otus on a beer budget. I'll definitely give it a try and will be in line when the pre-order opens up. If it has the sharpness of my 24-70 2.8 II and the smooth bokeh of my 50L, I'll be very happy


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## jdramirez (Jan 16, 2014)

Here's a quick question for y'all? Why didn't sigma or zeiss go f1.2 for their 50's?

Is it a dumb question?


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## mackguyver (Jan 16, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> Here's a quick question for y'all? Why didn't sigma or zeiss go f1.2 for their 50's?
> 
> Is it a dumb question?


It's not a dumb question, but not a simple one, either. The aperture numbers on the side of the lens are normally the theoretical aperture, not the actual amount of light that comes through the lens. Lens coatings, front elements, physical aperture, and other factors influence the actual light that reaches the sensor. That amount is the T-Stop, which is used in the cinema world and is measured by DxO as well. If you check out their measurements, you'll see that the f/1.2 lenses measure a T-Stop of 1.4 and the Sigma 35 Art and Zeiss Otus measure 1.5. 

Putting the marketing aside, the larger the aperture (theoretical or otherwise), the more complex the design, the bigger the lens, and the more expensive the lens. In some cases, the optical abberations of the large aperture simply can't be overcome at an affordable price - hence the 50L trading sharpness for smooth bokeh and f/1.2. I believe Zeiss and Sigma chose f/1.4 to balance cost, size, and performance.


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## Radiating (Jan 16, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> Here's a quick question for y'all? Why didn't sigma or zeiss go f1.2 for their 50's?
> 
> Is it a dumb question?



Digital cameras have problems absorbing light from lenses that are extremely fast because the pixels are shaped like buckets, so they reject some of the light that enters them at a high angle of incidence. A faster aperture simply allows light at a greater angle of incidence to reach the sensor. Film does not have this effect on the other hand though, and micro lenses on top of pixels have helped to improve but not solve the issue. To compensate for the lost light, most cameras boost the ISO in the background and report the set ISO to maintain exposure relationships.











Basically the difference from f/1.2 to f/1.4 is less than 1/6th of a stop on a 5D Mark III not 1/2.

So you have basically the same results:











There would be no meaningful difference between f/1.2 and f/1.4. They looks and performs pretty much the same, and choosing to go f/1.2 would create much worse image quality with little benefit. So f/1.4 is the best choice. Sigma has also been known to understate their apertures, so the lens may be f/1.3 wide open. The difference between f/1.4 and f/1.0 is noticeable though on digital, but not recommended as you get very poor image quality with lenses that have that aperture.


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## Rienzphotoz (Jan 16, 2014)

Dylan777 said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...


That sounds like some good quality wine Dylan ;D
I actually took your statement seriously yesterday and did a CR and google search for new 50 L, obviously I couldn't find it ... so thanks for robbing 5 minutes of my time, which I will never get back due to your drinking problem ;D


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## Solar Eagle (Jan 17, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> It's not a dumb question, but not a simple one, either. The aperture numbers on the side of the lens are normally the theoretical aperture, not the actual amount of light that comes through the lens. Lens coatings, front elements, physical aperture, and other factors influence the actual light that reaches the sensor. That amount is the T-Stop, which is used in the cinema world and is measured by DxO as well. If you check out their measurements, you'll see that the f/1.2 lenses measure a T-Stop of 1.4 and the Sigma 35 Art and Zeiss Otus measure 1.5.



I like that almost all of Canon's latest lenses (24/28/35/40 and 24-70 f4) have a T-Stop that matches their aperture value. Can't say I've seen any other lenses that can claim that achievement.


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## Eldar (Jan 17, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


He he, you don´t kill an audiophile discussion by suggesting blind testing, you rather throw fuel on the fire. To manipulate a blind test is the easiest thing to do and to judge a system requires time, which is very difficult with blind testing.

An important element here is the subjectivity of the evaluation and people´s obsession with disagreeing. Some like it loud, some like it soft, some like it hard, some like it analytical, some like it warm, some like classical/acoustic, some like metal, some like surround, some like stereo, some like digital, some like analogue ... the list is endless. Some setups work for orchestra, some for chamber, some for heavy metal, some for voice. But very few works well across them all.

And in photography, we have some of the same issues. Portrait vs. architecture vs. sports vs. landscape vs. wildlife, light, color, contrast, bokeh, AF speed vs. accuracy, size, weight, ruggedness ... the list can be veeerry long. One lens being the ultimate for one thing may well be crap for another. But isn´t that part of what makes this fun?


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## SeanL (Jan 17, 2014)

Zeiss Otus and now these Sigma claims...

Might these manufacturers have an inside track on high MP 35mm sensors in the pipeline?


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## Eldar (Jan 17, 2014)

SeanL said:


> Zeiss Otus and now these Sigma claims...
> 
> Might these manufacturers have an inside track on high MP 35mm sensors in the pipeline?


They know the empirically proven theory: "Moore's law is the observation that, over the history of computing hardware, the number of transistors on integrated circuits doubles approximately every two years. The law is named after Intel co-founder Gordon E. Moore, who described the trend in his 1965 paper.[1][2][3] His prediction has proven to be accurate, in part because the law is now used in the semiconductor industry to guide long-term planning and to set targets for research and development."


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## dcm (Jan 17, 2014)

Eldar said:


> They know the empirically proven theory: "Moore's law is the observation that, over the history of computing hardware, the number of transistors on integrated circuits doubles approximately every two years. The law is named after Intel co-founder Gordon E. Moore, who described the trend in his 1965 paper.[1][2][3] His prediction has proven to be accurate, in part because the law is now used in the semiconductor industry to guide long-term planning and to set targets for research and development."



in 2005 Moore also noted this cannot be sustained indefinitely and we would eventually run into the limitations of physics (in 10-20 years). There are indications from the semiconductor industry that the rate is already slowing to doubling every three years.


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## Eldar (Jan 17, 2014)

dcm said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > They know the empirically proven theory: "Moore's law is the observation that, over the history of computing hardware, the number of transistors on integrated circuits doubles approximately every two years. The law is named after Intel co-founder Gordon E. Moore, who described the trend in his 1965 paper.[1][2][3] His prediction has proven to be accurate, in part because the law is now used in the semiconductor industry to guide long-term planning and to set targets for research and development."
> ...


The 5DII with 21.1MP was released in March 2010. A 45MP by March 2014 would be proper then


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## mackguyver (Jan 17, 2014)

dcm said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > They know the empirically proven theory: "Moore's law is the observation that, over the history of computing hardware, the number of transistors on integrated circuits doubles approximately every two years. The law is named after Intel co-founder Gordon E. Moore, who described the trend in his 1965 paper.[1][2][3] His prediction has proven to be accurate, in part because the law is now used in the semiconductor industry to guide long-term planning and to set targets for research and development."
> ...


Yes, it seems that it is beginning to slow, but given the pixel density of the D800(E), Sony APS-C sensors, and most of all cell phones, it's clear that the technology to produce 60+ MP sensors for FF cameras already exists. The yields are probably too low to be cost-effective for FF sensors at the moment but in time they will be. The lens makers (OEM and 3rd party) would be fools to "wait" for the technology. Better to have the lenses ready when the sensors hit the market. Take a look at the number of Nikkor lenses that were essentially made obsolete by the D800 (all of the ones not on this list: http://nikonrumors.com/2013/04/29/nikon-published-an-updated-list-of-recommended-lenses-for-the-d800e-camera.aspx/) and it makes sense to be ahead of the curve


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## Albi86 (Jan 19, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> dcm said:
> 
> 
> > Eldar said:
> ...



This is going to create a clear shift in Canon optical signature. Most of the current L primes are already designed for great creamy bokeh rather than great sharpness across the frame. I believe that releasing sharper lenses in the < 85mm range will partly sacrifice the creaminess. The new Nikon 58mm is quite creamy but, case in point, not amazingly sharp. Having great sharpness and creamy bokeh might take an Otus-like optical effort (and size and price).

With that I don't mean to say they're going to have a bad bokeh. Creamy bokeh is not the only possible pleasant bokeh. But it's just going to be different from what people were used to with their 35L, 50L, 85L, etc....


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## Badger (Feb 4, 2014)

Any word on pricing?


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## jdramirez (Feb 4, 2014)

Badger said:


> Any word on pricing?



I have a few guesses... but no.


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## Eldar (Feb 4, 2014)

Has anyone seen an announced release date?


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## Albi86 (Feb 4, 2014)

Eldar said:


> Has anyone seen an announced release date?



Nope... I assume that they're keeping the full announcement for next week's CP+.


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