# Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera



## Canon Rumors Guy (Feb 26, 2018)

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<em>New Additions to the Canon EOS Family include EOS M50 and EOS Rebel T7</em></p>
<p><strong>MELVILLE, N.Y., February 25, 2018 –</strong> Upgrading from a smartphone camera to an entry-level interchangeable lens camera (ILC) can be considered to some people a daunting task. Canon U.S.A., Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, supports those looking to advance their skills by continuously developing and evolving its gear. Today, the company announced their latest additions to its all-encompassing lineup of digital cameras: the EOS M50 Interchangeable Lens Camera, the first Canon EOS M-series camera with 4K video recording which is four-times the size of full HD 1080, and the EOS Rebel T7, the latest addition to the wildly popular EOS Rebel line of entry-level DSLR Cameras, with an upgraded CMOS sensor to deliver sharp, high-resolution images to capture life’s key moments.</p>
<p>For photographers actively seeking to upgrade their skills, the EOS M50 is an all-around, entry-level camera with an extensive list of user-friendly features that encourages users to broaden their creative visions. Providing improved Dual Pixel CMOS AF, a 24.1MP APS-C CMOS sensor resulting in less noise and high definition in low-light situations, and the capability of recording 4K video, the EOS M50 will capture crisp, photographic expressions in various situations.</p>
<p>“Our core goal when developing new entry-level interchangeable lens cameras for our consumers is to meld high-quality features and usability together. In listening to our customers, we believe we have achieved this goal with both the EOS M50 and EOS Rebel T7, ” said Yuichi Ishizuka, president and COO, Canon U.S.A., Inc. “With enhanced features for photographers of all skill levels to enjoy, both cameras demonstrate Canon’s commitment to developing and manufacturing best-in-class quality imaging solutions.”</p>
<p>Additional features of the EOS M50 include:</p>
<ul>
<li>New DIGIC 8 Image Processor</li>
<li>HD 120p High-frame video rate</li>
<li>Built-in OLED Electronic Viewfinder with Touch and Drag Autofocus</li>
<li>Vari-Angle LCD touchscreen</li>
<li>Wi-Fi<span class="green">*</span>, NFC<span class="green">**</span> and Bluetooth connectivity<span class="green">***</span></li>
<li>Automatic image transfer to compatible devices while shooting<span class="green">*</span></li>
<li>New Silent Mode</li>
</ul>
<p>The EOS Rebel T7 DSLR camera, featuring an upgraded CMOS sensor of 24.1 megapixel resolution, is the successor to the EOS Rebel T6. Offering easy sharing of high-quality photos and videos on social media sites, the EOS Rebel T7 provides continuous shooting up to 3.0 frames per second (fps), a nine-point autofocus system and a three-inch LCD monitor, offering users a multitude of options to capture and share life’s important moments.</p>
<p>Additional features of the EOS Rebel T7 include:</p>
<ul>
<li>Built-In Wi-Fi<span class="green">*</span> and NFC<span class="green">**</span> connectivity</li>
<li>Scene Intelligent Auto Mode</li>
<li>Optical View Finder</li>
</ul>
<p>For an additional cost, both products are also eligible for the reliable protection of CarePAK PLUS, Canon’s optional service plan, which includes accidental damage protection and Image Recovery, designed to retrieve irreplaceable images or videos otherwise lost or corrupted. CarePAK PLUS, along with all Canon camera service plans, is performed exclusively by Canon’s renowned service and support team.</p>
<p>The Canon EOS M50 is scheduled to be available in April 2018 for an estimated retail price of $779.99<span class="green">^</span> for the body only. The EOS M50 will also be available with the EF-M 15-45mm f/3.5-6.3 IS STM lens in both black and white for an estimated retail price of $899.99<span class="green">^</span>. Additionally, the EOS M50 will be sold with the EF-M 15-45mm f/3.5-6.3 IS STM and the EF-M 55-200mm f/4.5-6.3 IS STM in black only for an estimated retail price of $1,249.00<span class="green">^</span>. A Video Creator Kit will also be available for the EOS M50 for an estimated retail price of $999.99<span class="green">^</span>.</p>
<p>The EOS Rebel T7 is scheduled to be available in April 2018, and will be sold as a lens-and-body kit with the EF-S 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 IS II for an estimated retail price of $549.99<span class="green">^</span>.

For more information, please visit usa.canon.com.</p>
<p><strong>Canon EOS M50 Body (Black) $779</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>USA: <a href="https://bhpho.to/2HO5RDF">B&H Photo</a> | <a href="https://mpex.com/canon-eos-m50-mirrorless-digital-camera-body-only-black.html?acc=3">Midwest Photo</a> | Amazon | <a href="https://www.adorama.com/icam50.html?kbid=64393">Adorama</a></li>
</ul>
<p><strong>Canon EOS M50 (Black) w/EF-M 15-45mm f/3.5-6.3 IS STM $899</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>USA: <a href="https://bhpho.to/2EWpbg6">B&H Photo</a> | <a href="https://mpex.com/canon-eos-m50-mirrorless-digital-camera-with-15-45mm-lens-black.html?acc=3">Midwest Photo</a> | Amazon | <a href="https://www.adorama.com/icam50k1.html?kbid=64393">Adorama</a></li>
</ul>
<p><strong>Canon EOS M50 (White) w/EF-M 15-45mm f/3.5-6.3 IS STM $899</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>USA: <a href="https://bhpho.to/2Fwerq2">B&H Photo</a> | <a href="https://mpex.com/canon-eos-m50-mirrorless-digital-camera-with-15-45mm-lens-white.html?acc=3">Midwest Photo</a> | Amazon | <a href="https://www.adorama.com/icam50wk1.html?kbid=64393">Adorama</a></li>
</ul>
<p><strong>Canon EOS M50 (Black) w/EF-M 15-45mm & EF-M 55-200mm $1249</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>USA: <a href="https://bhpho.to/2FvqZ0I">B&H Photo</a> | <a href="https://mpex.com/canon-eos-m50-mirrorless-digital-camera-with-15-45mm-55-210mm-lenses-black.html?acc=3">Midwest Photo</a> | Amazon | <a href="https://www.adorama.com/icam50k2.html?kbid=64393">Adorama</a></li>
</ul>
<p><strong>Canon EOS M50 (Black) w/EF-M 15-45mm Video Creators Kit $999</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>USA: <a href="https://bhpho.to/2EW91TV">B&H Photo</a> | <a href="https://mpex.com/canon-eos-m50-mirrorless-digital-camera-with-15-45mm-lens-video-creator-kit.html?acc=3">Midwest Photo</a> | Amazon | <a href="https://www.adorama.com/icam50vk.html?kbid=64393">Adorama</a></li>
</ul>
<p><strong>Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI $399</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>USA: <a href="https://bhpho.to/2HICUJr">B&H Photo</a> | <a href="https://mpex.com/canon-speedlite-470ex-ai.html?acc=3">Midwest Photo</a> | Amazon | <a href="https://www.adorama.com/ca470ex.html?kbid=64393">Adorama</a></li>
</ul>
<p> </p>

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## R1-7D (Feb 26, 2018)

These pretzels are making me firsty. 

Interested in the M50. Looks like it will be a neat little camera.


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## Talys (Feb 26, 2018)

Whoa...

Fully articulating screen!!! <3
Touch drag autofocus
Pupil AF

I hope M5 mkII has an articulating screen like that.


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## Mac Duderson (Feb 26, 2018)

Great... 
Now can we have a 50mm 1.4 IS and 28mm 1.4 or should we wait for 1st party name brand companies like sigma to do them?  haha! ;D ;D ;D


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## syyeung1 (Feb 26, 2018)

For the further cropping in 4K video, does it mean that it will use a small part of the censor but focal length remains the same as APS-C?


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## rrcphoto (Feb 26, 2018)

dpreview is reporting:

4K video at 1.6 crop with no DPAF at a bitrate of 120mbps h.264

the bitrate is actually decent, that's better than you get out of any of the Sony's (100mbps)

IMO the lack of DPAF is the one disappointment I see with this over anything else. it makes this a not-to-great option as a 4k vlogger camera.


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## goldenhusky (Feb 26, 2018)

*Disappoinments! Disappoinments!! Disappoinments!!!* as usual from the leader in digital imaging solutions 

SD/SDHC/SDXC memory card UHS-I compatible WTF Canon?
4K UHD* at 24 frames per second
* Shooting at 23.98p is possible. Shooting takes place by cropping pixels from the center of the sensor. Contrast detection AF is used.

high-speed 120p** mode is possible in HD
** AF is fixed. Playback is 1/4 slow motion playback (29.97p).
I really don't know when these knuckleheads will catch up with the competition


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## R1-7D (Feb 26, 2018)

Wow, no DPAF in 4K. Never mind, no longer interested. Maybe next time, Canon.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 26, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> SD/SDHC/SDXC memory card UHS-I compatible WTF Canon?



who really cares about this? on an entry level camera?


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## Chaitanya (Feb 26, 2018)

Still no uhs-ii sd slot or type-c usb port.


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## Talys (Feb 26, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> goldenhusky said:
> 
> 
> > SD/SDHC/SDXC memory card UHS-I compatible WTF Canon?
> ...



Exactly.


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## goldenhusky (Feb 26, 2018)

It says silent shooting but there is no mention of an electronic shutter. Sounds like another gimmick. I would be happy to proven wrong here


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## goldenhusky (Feb 26, 2018)

Talys said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > goldenhusky said:
> ...



It is 2018. UHS ll was introduced back in 2011 and it is expected to be in a camera in 2018.


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## transpo1 (Feb 26, 2018)

R1-7D said:


> Wow, no DPAF in 4K. Never mind, no longer interested. Maybe next time, Canon.



Wow, is this true?


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## goldenhusky (Feb 26, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> R1-7D said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, no DPAF in 4K. Never mind, no longer interested. Maybe next time, Canon.
> ...



Yep


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## Isaacheus (Feb 26, 2018)

So a ~2.5 effective FF crop with the asp-c sensor and the 1.6 crop? 

The crop part wasn't unexpected but the lack of dpaf in 4k is quite the downside - this has been confirmed?
I wonder why 30 fps couldn't have been done either, seems a bit of an odd limitation


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## Talys (Feb 26, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> It is 2018. UHS ll was introduced back in 2011 and it is expected to be in a camera in 2018.



But if it's of zero benefit, and UHS II cards just cost more, who cares?


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## transpo1 (Feb 26, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > R1-7D said:
> ...



I really should not be surprised, but I am. Why would a company make a product great by pairing their most powerful feature- DPAF- with a new feature- 4K (okay, new to Canon cameras)- that so many people wanted. They ALMOST had my money.


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## Isaacheus (Feb 26, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> goldenhusky said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



Because that would make it much too attractive for people ;D

The crop was kinda expected (although I think it comes out to ~ 2.5 FF equiv which is fairly heavy) but the lack of dpaf means it doesn't really have any standout video feature as a canon camera.


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## Talys (Feb 26, 2018)

syyeung1 said:


> For the further cropping in 4K video, does it mean that it will use a small part of the censor but focal length remains the same as APS-C?



The sensor's resolution is 6000x4000 (=24mp). 4k is 3840x2160.

1.6 crop factor, if you applied it proportionately to the sensor would give you 3750x2500, but of course, the aspect ratio is different. So all 1.6 crop means is that Canon is taking the center 3840 pixels horizontally and the center 2160 pixels vertically when recording video.

The lens hasn't changed, so the focal length remains the same as APSC for the purposes of perspective. But for field of view, because you're only getting the center 1.6 out of APSC, you'll need a wider angle lens to capture the same frame.


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## Talys (Feb 26, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> I really should not be surprised, but I am. Why would a company make a product great by pairing their most powerful feature- DPAF- with a new feature- 4K (okay, new to Canon cameras)- that so many people wanted. They ALMOST had my money.



I suspect that this is because it will be a differentiator between their $740 camera, and their future $1000 camera. After all, what other $740 camera has DPAF 4k video?


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## transpo1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > goldenhusky said:
> ...



So much for getting the vloggers back.


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## transpo1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Talys said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > I really should not be surprised, but I am. Why would a company make a product great by pairing their most powerful feature- DPAF- with a new feature- 4K (okay, new to Canon cameras)- that so many people wanted. They ALMOST had my money.
> ...



Fair enough- let’s get that camera out, then. Time to turn out some good products instead of protecting future brackets of ones that don’t exist yet.


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## goldenhusky (Feb 26, 2018)

Talys said:


> goldenhusky said:
> 
> 
> > It is 2018. UHS ll was introduced back in 2011 and it is expected to be in a camera in 2018.
> ...



Yep it is definitely of no use for you


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## ritholtz (Feb 26, 2018)

Crop factory and no dpaf in 4k is disappointing. Let us see if at least matches with M5 with rest of the stuff except those missing physical buttons. Don't know why did they release this. Instead, they should just reduce price of M5.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 26, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > goldenhusky said:
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no real use to anyone unless there's the communication lanes available to run it at a higher bus speed, outside of looking like the ultimate spec sheet warrior.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 26, 2018)

ritholtz said:


> Crop factory and no dpaf in 4k is disappointing. Let us see if at least matches with M5 with rest of the stuff except those missing physical buttons. Don't know why did they release this. Instead, they should just reduce price of M5.



why would it have to match the M5 - it's really sitting above the M100. not around the M6/M5 level of cameras.


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## Talys (Feb 26, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > goldenhusky said:
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UHS II cards are a way more expensive, so what's the point, unless the camera does something that takes advantage of the faster card?

I'm not saying that UHS II cards serve no purpose; just that they serve no purpose in _this camera_ because of limitations either in other subsystems or artificially imposed to fit a $740 price point.




rrcphoto said:


> ritholtz said:
> 
> 
> > Crop factory and no dpaf in 4k is disappointing. Let us see if at least matches with M5 with rest of the stuff except those missing physical buttons. Don't know why did they release this. Instead, they should just reduce price of M5.
> ...



Right -- it should have specs between the M100 and M5/6, but (as with most Canon consumer body releases) because it's newer, it will get some nice features that will make it into the next M5/6's.


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## Isaacheus (Feb 26, 2018)

Talys said:


> syyeung1 said:
> 
> 
> > For the further cropping in 4K video, does it mean that it will use a small part of the censor but focal length remains the same as APS-C?
> ...



In practice, it looks like the 15-45mm kit lens on this would have a ~38 - 112mm effective focal length when using the 4k video mode, which is pretty similar to the ~40 - 120mmangle you get on the 5dmk4 with a 24-70mm lens in that camera's 4k mode.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 26, 2018)

Talys said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > I really should not be surprised, but I am. Why would a company make a product great by pairing their most powerful feature- DPAF- with a new feature- 4K (okay, new to Canon cameras)- that so many people wanted. They ALMOST had my money.
> ...



performance tweaks I'm sure need to be done. they have to sample 8 million AF points in between frames for DPAF. contrast is taken as part of the frame capture.


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## ritholtz (Feb 26, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> ritholtz said:
> 
> 
> > Crop factory and no dpaf in 4k is disappointing. Let us see if at least matches with M5 with rest of the stuff except those missing physical buttons. Don't know why did they release this. Instead, they should just reduce price of M5.
> ...


It doesn't need to match. If it does, that is a bonus for me.


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## syyeung1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Talys said:


> syyeung1 said:
> 
> 
> > For the further cropping in 4K video, does it mean that it will use a small part of the censor but focal length remains the same as APS-C?
> ...



So the crop factor can be partially compensated with the 11-22 lens. Not sure how the small sensor area will affect the overall quality. Also, not sure how bad the contrast AF performance is.


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## Talys (Feb 26, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > I suspect that this is because it will be a differentiator between their $740 camera, and their future $1000 camera. After all, what other $740 camera has DPAF 4k video?
> ...



No doubt. I suspect that there will be a DIGIC 8 camera that supports DPAF 4k at some point, though. Of course, that's just a wild guess on my part 

After all, this is Canon. They always have to leave something for the next body 8)



Isaacheus said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > syyeung1 said:
> ...



Yeah, that sounds right. 

5D4's crop mode is 1.7 (because it's a 30 megapixel sensor, less is used), but it's pretty close to the same crop factor, so we can just figure on using the regular APSC to FF lens conversion factor when figuring field of view.


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## goldenhusky (Feb 26, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> It says silent shooting but there is no mention of an electronic shutter. Sounds like another gimmick. I would be happy to proven wrong here



There is no electronic shutter. It is yet another Canon's *"innovation"* like Dual pixel RAW in 5D4 confirmed.


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## Talys (Feb 26, 2018)

syyeung1 said:


> So the crop factor can be partially compensated with the 11-22 lens. Not sure how the small sensor area will affect the overall quality. Also, not sure how bad the contrast AF performance is.



Definitely. The small sensor area gives you the center of the lens, and on consumer lenses, that's a big plus, since the corners are usually comparatively crappy.

AF can't be worse than pre-DPAF cameras (like a t5i in live view). And it certainly can't be worse than Nikon ;D


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## rrcphoto (Feb 26, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> goldenhusky said:
> 
> 
> > It says silent shooting but there is no mention of an electronic shutter. Sounds like another gimmick. I would be happy to proven wrong here
> ...



nothing with with DPRAW. Canon needs to make strides in computational post processing. no one else is.

You really need to take a break from the keyboard a bit. you're getting a bit much.

it says virtually no shutter sound, so it will be interesting to see how they implemented that *without* going electronic.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 26, 2018)

Talys said:


> syyeung1 said:
> 
> 
> > So the crop factor can be partially compensated with the 11-22 lens. Not sure how the small sensor area will affect the overall quality. Also, not sure how bad the contrast AF performance is.
> ...



Kai did a video, it hunts like CDAF, it appears rather disappointing.

still probably not as bad as nikon though.

there's still some cool things that I'll look forward to on a M5 Mark II.. the quiet shutter wil be nice, the automatic image transfer will be as well.

AF is down to -2EV versus -1EV in prior sensors.

not as good as alot would have liked but at least, finally .h264 4K made it into DIGIC.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 26, 2018)

Please remember that this is a mid-entry level mirrorless camera, and that it costs $779.
I'm sure that they will introduce other models with better specifications (less limitations), later on.

Up until now, if you wanted 4K and DPAF, you needed to pay at least $3,300 (5D mark IV).

We will probably get a model that does both, but it will probably cost at least $1,000 (even $2000 wouldnt surprise me)

The Sony a6500 costs $1300 can do 30 minutes, unless it overheats (your luck may vary).
The Fujifilm X-H1 costs $1900 but can only record 4K for 15 minutes (or 1080p for 20 minutes) unless you buy an extra $330 battery grip.

So we can't really expect the same features for $779 (on a APSC-sized sensor).


Side note: I guess the 1.6x 4K crop will generate sales for the 11-22mm lens.
I wonder what the quality of 1080p video will be like... can we have DPAF and nice, crisp, clear 1080p from the full sensor?


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## goldenhusky (Feb 26, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> goldenhusky said:
> 
> 
> > goldenhusky said:
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I don't need your advice just mind your own business.


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## transpo1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > syyeung1 said:
> ...



It’s too bad about the crop and no 4K DPAF. Together, those kill a lot of interest in this camera.


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## Ah-Keong (Feb 26, 2018)

Looks like a great step in the right direction....


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## Sharlin (Feb 26, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> I don't need your advice just mind your own business.



Don't post on forums then where someone might, gasp, reply to your ramblings.


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## Isaacheus (Feb 26, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> It’s too bad about the crop and no 4K DPAF. Together, those kill a lot of interest in this camera.



Even with the crop, if the 4k had dpaf, it would still be an interesting option with something like the 11-22mm ef-m lens, for people wanting a one person rig/vloggers etc. 

The cdaf doesn't look great from some of the pre-production reviews - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGHh5062azE around the 7 min mark

looks like the electronic stablilizinng crops in even further too


----------



## Woody (Feb 26, 2018)

Pupil AF only in AF-S mode. Sigh...

I hope it's just a handicap in the M50, not a limitation imposed by the DIGIC 8 processing speed.


----------



## Larsskv (Feb 26, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> goldenhusky said:
> 
> 
> > I don't need your advice just mind your own business.
> ...



While speaking of business. Some people these days are paid to troll. Just saying.


----------



## tron (Feb 26, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...


Even on a camera that doesn't make use of UHS-II speed. Great logic!


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 26, 2018)

tron said:


> goldenhusky said:
> 
> 
> > It is 2018. UHS ll was introduced back in 2011 and it is expected to be in a camera in 2018.
> ...



B-but it's 2018! Nobody is going to buy this unless there's "UHS-II" in the spec sheet! :


----------



## 3dit0r (Feb 26, 2018)

Woody said:


> Pupil AF only in AF-S mode. Sigh...
> 
> I hope it's just a handicap in the M50, not a limitation imposed by the DIGIC 8 processing speed.



Yeah, this is my thought about the whole camera. I don't really care that 4K is cropped that heavily in an _entry level_ camera (even though the competition don't crop this heavily at all - let's be realistic, in video terms, this is now using a sensor area _smaller_ than micro 4/3), etc.

But it does send very mixed signals to those looking to the future of Canon's higher-end DSLR/mirrorless options; is this just 'crippling' an entry level camera to protect higher end models, or does it signify that Canon _still_ don't recognise that the heavy 4K video crop has been very unpopular, and forgetting that, on full frame cameras at least, that they have no lenses suitable for wideangle shots on that 1.7 crop? Or does it mean that they simply don't have the sensor/processing tech yet to compete with other brands which have been perfecting this tech in full-frame or near full-readout APS-C for some time?

It still leaves me on the fence as to how much I should commit to Canon long-term, they're not helping customers, or potential customers who are/have been on the fence to have a lot of faith here. We could do with clearer indications, or even actual roadmaps, of where Canon intend to take some of this, it really would be very helpful.


----------



## traveller (Feb 26, 2018)

Woody said:


> Pupil AF only in AF-S mode. Sigh...
> 
> I hope it's just a handicap in the M50, not a limitation imposed by the DIGIC 8 processing speed.



I’m guessing that there will be a “Digic 8+” for the higher end mirrorless and DSLR models.


----------



## Don Haines (Feb 26, 2018)

tron said:


> goldenhusky said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...



At the video storage rate of 120 Mbits/ second , you are writing to the card at 15Mbytes per second, easily done on UHS-1.

If you store Raw files plus Jpgs, you need about 40 Mbytes times 10FPS, or about 400MBytes per second to keep up.... UHS-2 would certainly help here.....


----------



## Deleted member 380306 (Feb 26, 2018)

Pricing Confusion!

Here in the UK the M5 costs £789.00 yet the M50 is £539.00

The main differences seem to point to the m50 being a better camera, with added flip-out screen, 4k, DPOF file format, DIGIC 8 processor, IBIS, more auto focus points... yet the price is a lot lower than the m5! 

Can anyone explain what's going on?


----------



## -pekr- (Feb 26, 2018)

Wonder if m6 II gets touch & drag focus too, when an external EVF is connected. This is a nice feature missing for those, who find m5/m50 design kind of displeasing and want a bit of a more rangefinder like design  ...


----------



## leGreve (Feb 26, 2018)

Atleast we can always trust Canon to underdeliver.... mainly because they produce so much crap in order to cover all segments. Another half way there gimped camera... but yeah, vloggers are probably gonna love for some reason.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 26, 2018)

TonyPicture said:


> The main differences seem to point to the m50 being a better camera, with added flip-out screen, 4k, DPOF file format, DIGIC 8 processor, IBIS, more auto focus points... yet the price is a lot lower than the m5!
> 
> Can anyone explain what's going on?



*There’s no IBIS*. I don’t get how people think there is.

Anyway, it’s a nice leap in technology but it’s still an entry-level body. However, I suspect an M5 Mark II isn’t that far off.


----------



## Diltiazem (Feb 26, 2018)

Some JPEG samples for anyone interested. Only 100-200 ISO though.

http://cweb.canon.jp/eos/lineup/kissm/samples/index.html


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## Deleted member 380306 (Feb 26, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> TonyPicture said:
> 
> 
> > The main differences seem to point to the m50 being a better camera, with added flip-out screen, 4k, DPOF file format, DIGIC 8 processor, IBIS, more auto focus points... yet the price is a lot lower than the m5!
> ...



I'm really wondering why the better looking camera ref specs is so much cheaper?


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 26, 2018)

TonyPicture said:


> According to Canon's website in the movie mode it has 'In-camera Digital IS' and I see now so did the M5(I didn't know that)



Yeah, M5 indeed has it too. But IBIS usually is taken to mean stabilization based on physically moving the sensor. Which no Canon cameras has.



> But lets not get bogged down here with that issue, I'm really wondering why the better looking camera ref specs is so much cheaper?



Other than the obvious lack of physical controls and C modes, I presume it also lacks other features Canon usually uses to differentiate enthusiast bodies from entry-level ones. But from the specs viewpoint it does indeed look like a very good deal right now. The M5 and M6 apparently did just get a ~50¤ price drop.


----------



## traveller (Feb 26, 2018)

To a certain extent, the M50 is well specified for its intended entry-level market. The challenge for Canon is that their new entry level cameras at their launch price are bound to be compared with the older mid-high end models from other manufacturers that are nearing the end of their life-cycle. Party this is because (not trying to spark a flame war here) Canon hasn’t exactly been leading the way with headline grabbing new features on their consumer level models, so there’s nothing that the entry level consumer can point at and say “oh that feature is missing, it’s old tech so I’ll go for the Canon”. In some ways (if it works seamlessly), the instant export image to smartphone feature is the closest that the M50 gets to a “killer feature”. 

As existing Canon users, we may argue that it doesn’t matter because we know that Canon makes cameras that in use, just work extremely well (caveat: how many of us have that extensive a experience of using other brands’ {recent} cameras for comparison?). We might also argue that in practice 95% of people don’t actually need feature xyz, but as a new buyer you just can’t appreciate these aspects as you have probably never used a “serious” camera before. Therefore you fall back on: 

[list type=decimal]
[*]Friends’ advice: “I use brand x and they make the best cameras because if they didn’t, I’d be using something else”
[*]Dealer’s advice: “I recommend camera y, it’s the best because selling one to you helps me reach my monthly sales target for that model”
[*]The internet review sites’ advice: “Our expert reviewers recommend camera z, it’s the best because it’s *NEW* and has lots of exciting features that we can talk about without our reviews becoming carbon-copy dull... are you excited? Then hit the _Buy Now!_ link at our affiliate advertiser, or consider making a small donation to help support the great work we do taking photos of the foam on the top of our artisan vegan-soy latte”.
[/list]

I’m now totally confused. I’ll just type in “camera comparison” into Google.... aha, here’s a couple of great websites:

http://cameradecision.com/search
http://snapsort.com/compare

Now why doesn’t everyone just make it that simple?


----------



## tron (Feb 26, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > goldenhusky said:
> ...


I do not believe that someone who selects both RAW and JPG is a person who would utilize 10fps. Plus this camera is not a sports one (although admittedly higher fps can be used for anything not only sports). Having said that higher specs are always welcome in every model. I do not defend Canon. I believe eventually they will turn to the faster standard. And if I saw a 7D3 and/or a 5DsRMkII with a UHS-I controller I would be upset!


----------



## Deleted member 380306 (Feb 26, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> TonyPicture said:
> 
> 
> > According to Canon's website in the movie mode it has 'In-camera Digital IS' and I see now so did the M5(I didn't know that)
> ...



They both have '5-axis electronic image stabilization (IBIS?)' I think you're a little confused as to what IBIS actually means...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_yStTHxgqo


----------



## MayaTlab (Feb 26, 2018)

3dit0r said:


> But it does send very mixed signals to those looking to the future of Canon's higher-end DSLR/mirrorless options; is this just 'crippling' an entry level camera to protect higher end models, or does it signify that Canon _still_ don't recognise that the heavy 4K video crop has been very unpopular, and forgetting that, on full frame cameras at least, that they have no lenses suitable for wideangle shots on that 1.7 crop? Or does it mean that they simply don't have the sensor/processing tech yet to compete with other brands which have been perfecting this tech in full-frame or near full-readout APS-C for some time?



Regarding cropped 4K and lack of DPAF at this resolution I'm fairly certain that it isn't crippling, but rather a sensor readout speed issue. Canon engineers probably know very well how to improve that spec, but I guess that Canon is reluctant to commit to processes to make the production of such sensors a reality, at least at a given price point. The same goes for the 6DII, Canon probably can't produce x design for a sufficiently low price to make it a reality. 

This is actually kind of worrying because it was all fine and dandy when Canon simply lagged behind in terms of DR, now with video and mirrorless cameras it's basic operational capabilities that are lagging behind. The Sony A9's silent shutter, for example, seems totally out of reach for Canon for a few years at least. 

On a positive note we finally seem to have an efficient Digic that can do 4K in H264.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 26, 2018)

TonyPicture said:


> Sharlin said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, M5 indeed has it too. But IBIS usually is taken to mean stabilization based on physically moving the sensor. Which no Canon cameras has.
> ...



I don't think _I'm_ the confused one here. Even though some random youtuber might call the digital _video_ stabilization "IBIS", that's not how the term is understood by most people. Note that Canon themselves definitely don't call the video stabilization feature "in-body image stabilization". And the "5-axis" part is only when coupled with a lens with actual physical stabilization. The cameras that do implement "actual" IBIS do so by physically moving the sensor, meaning that both stills and video are stabilized and there's no extra cropping involved.


----------



## sanj (Feb 26, 2018)

Such a badly made video. Horrible lighting, treatment etc. etc.


----------



## espressino (Feb 26, 2018)

So this is a great little camera, and it's marketed as an entry-level one (at, perhaps, not quite an entry-level price just now, but the price will surely drop a little bit going forward) but there are two things that really bother me: the battery is actually a dealbreaker. A friend of mine uses the M10 and the LP-E12 is borderline annoying since it barely edges through a full day of shooting on vacation. I'm not convinced the LP-E12 will perform a lot better in the M50 when shooting 4K videos. And I don't think vloggers will be too enthusiastic about having to swap batteries every half an hour or so.
The other thing doesn't concern the camera itself but what I'd call conditional or asterisked marketing (which appears to be more pronounced on the Canon Europe website): 10 fps! (oh, but only with locked focus. Under normal conditions it's 7.4 fps. Which is still impressive, so why not advertise that?) Silent shutter! (Oh, but only in a special scene mode; it is one of the scene modes just like for night photography or HDR). Enlarged AF area! (Nevermind, to all intents and purposes it's still 80%x80% if you want to use DPAF). I have a hunch that they do this so the 'better' specs can be displayed on camera ranking websites, and then it's up to the consumer to find out which is a 'true' spec and which one is inflated. Whether 10 or 7.4 fps really doesn't make much of a difference for hobby photographers (of which I am one), but to me it leaves a bad aftertaste which then actually eclipses the many great features of a totally capable camera. Case in point is the interplay between camera and the Camera Connect App, where every single camera model seems to support a different set of features, and you really have to geek up beforehand to know whether your camera is going to perform as the marketing might have lead you to believe (EOS 77D: bluetooth only serves to establish wifi connection, no GPS support in app; M6: GPS support in app and smartphone remote via bluetooth connection; SL2: GPS support in app; m10: wifi remote but not via eos utility on a computer etc. etc.), and those are absolutely arbitrary limitations which of course help market segmentation but also lead to costumer frustration. And it becomes especially infuriating when a cheaper camera supports a feature (GPS data via app) that a more expensive one doesn't.


----------



## mistaspeedy (Feb 26, 2018)

This little camera might just be the right thing for me. One thing that concerned me about the 77D (basically 
identical price) is the lack of autofocus micro-adjustment (AFMA) when using the viewfinder.
I was also considering the 200D (SL2), but it has an ancient autofocus system and no AFMA.
Since mirrorless dont have microdjustment issues, this is no longer an issue.

I tend to leave my Canon 1D mark II at home because it is too big, and Im looking for something a lot smaller and lighter.

The M5 costs a bit too much for my liking, and I wont consider anything without a good built in viewfinder or some sort of grip.
I would also like focus peaking, so I can adapt old lenses or use Samyang (Rokinon) prime lenses like the 85mm F1.4.

It seems to tick a lot of boxes although it isnt perfect.

However, with an eos ef to m adapter, Im back up at the price of an 80D which has AFMA and 1/8000 shutter speed, etc.


----------



## Khufu (Feb 26, 2018)

I just watched a few videos, and I think it was a quick dpreview teaser which confirmed for me that the FHD video mode lacks the 3x video crop mode...

I believe it's made its return in the 200D, it's around in the 70D & 80D (thought not 5D4 or 6D2) and I use it lots with my EOS M2, alas since the EOS M series became glorified Powershot projects instead of having EOS firmware the option has disappeared...

I'm desperate for an EOS M with a viewfinder & flippy screen and 1:1 pixel HD shooting... They're annoying everyone by making 4K shoot this way, they've done it before with HD (and still do in some models) why not just activate the HD option?! 

I'm sure someone at Canon is out to see just how many ways they can disappoint different people with all kinds of both mainstream and niche hopes for their products...


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Feb 26, 2018)

How dare Canon release an entry level mirror-less targeted at smartphone users without including 4K specs rivaling their cinema series cameras! Have they no shame!


----------



## fussy III (Feb 26, 2018)

Canon Rumors said:


> The new silent mode can shoot without any shutter sound



There have been exactly two reasons for which I would have bought this camera:
1) silent shooting for wildlife
2) Dual Pixel AF in 4K

Today I not only found out about the Dual-Pixel-4K-crippling but also that *silent shooting cannot be used in M or Av modes*: "Canon has also included a silent shooting mode that uses a fully electronic shutter – the first time this has appeared on a EOS camera. Frustratingly, though, it’s only available from a fully automated mode that’s accessed from the SCN position on the exposure-mode dial. The electronic shutter can’t apparently be selected in any other shooting mode, which feels like a missed opportunity." See http://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/canon-eos-m50

Despite the Dual-4K-crippling, the lower price of the EOS M50 as compared to the a6500 and a possibly better continous photo-AF in combination with EF-lenses would still have made the M50 a camera to consider for my main purpose which is shooting absolutely silently with my existing EF-lenses. But under no circumstances will I start operating my camera in fully automatic exposure mode. So I guess I will have yet another Sony in my bag (besides the A7s) soon.

Canon: You are amazing me with every other release. "Frustrating our faithful customers" seems to be point number ONE in your tick-off list before any camera-release. I cannot express my disappointment. I am absolutely stunned. Do they really know what they are doing?


----------



## -pekr- (Feb 26, 2018)

fussy III said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > The new silent mode can shoot without any shutter sound
> ...



You should think twice before posting here  Now gurus will come and prove you wrong, using arguments like successful sales figures, knowing how to do your exposure correctly, wanting professional features at half the price and similar stuff


----------



## exquisitor (Feb 26, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> 3dit0r said:
> 
> 
> > But it does send very mixed signals to those looking to the future of Canon's higher-end DSLR/mirrorless options; is this just 'crippling' an entry level camera to protect higher end models, or does it signify that Canon _still_ don't recognise that the heavy 4K video crop has been very unpopular, and forgetting that, on full frame cameras at least, that they have no lenses suitable for wideangle shots on that 1.7 crop? Or does it mean that they simply don't have the sensor/processing tech yet to compete with other brands which have been perfecting this tech in full-frame or near full-readout APS-C for some time?
> ...



Exactly. For this reason DPAF is available at FHD and HD resolution, which still makes it very capable for video. But I think this is rather a processing problem, not a readout (sensor) problem.1DXII and 5DIV both have dual DIGIC processors and they both have DPAF at 4K. 6DII has only one DIGIC 7 and subsequently no 4K at all. Obviously DIGIC 8 now allows for 4K, but without DPAF.


----------



## jayphotoworks (Feb 26, 2018)

We laugh at Sony for releasing a high powered spec list to then pad it with caveats. Looks like Canon is going that route as well. 4K*! 1.6 Crop**! 5 Axis IS*** Silent Shutter****!

* No DPAF in 4K
** "Inception Crop": 1.6 4K crop on top of a 1.6 APS-C Crop
*** Gyro Lens+Digital IS. Sensor fixed
**** Only in Full Auto Scene Modes


----------



## MayaTlab (Feb 26, 2018)

exquisitor said:


> MayaTlab said:
> 
> 
> > 3dit0r said:
> ...



I don't think that it's processing. Other factors point to a low readout speed from Canon sensors, such as the M line's inability to show a live view feed from the sensor when doing C-AF in burst mode. 

EDIT : besides, Imaging-Resource mentions that "when recording 4K UHD video, which has four times the pixels than Full HD video, the M50 can still record for up to 29 minutes and 59 seconds, which is an impressive recording limit for 4K in this class. The bit rate of 4K video is 120 Mbps.", which seems to indicate that at least on the video processing side, the new Digic is fairly powerful : https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-eos-m50/canon-eos-m50A.HTM


----------



## MayaTlab (Feb 26, 2018)

jayphotoworks said:


> We laugh at Sony for releasing a high powered spec list to then pad it with caveats. Looks like Canon is going that route as well. 4K*! 1.6 Crop**! 5 Axis IS*** Silent Shutter****!
> 
> * No DPAF in 4K
> ** "Inception Crop": 1.6 4K crop on top of a 1.6 APS-C Crop
> ...



Well it's working : doing a search on Google about the M50 ruveals that most headlines mention that it serves 4K realness, even though it's busted 4K. 
But yeah that camera is basically Canon's attempt to dust a catfish with chicken cutlets padding to dress up the spec list to eleganza extravaganza levels, but I'm clocking that mug and I'm not gagging. 
Anyway no T no shade the M50 isn't flooding my basement, I'm just totally flazéda about it. 
Come on Canon, when will you be sick'ning ?


----------



## ritholtz (Feb 26, 2018)

jayphotoworks said:


> We laugh at Sony for releasing a high powered spec list to then pad it with caveats. Looks like Canon is going that route as well. 4K*! 1.6 Crop**! 5 Axis IS*** Silent Shutter****!
> 
> * No DPAF in 4K
> ** "Inception Crop": 1.6 4K crop on top of a 1.6 APS-C Crop
> ...


Yup. Older Nikons as with some limitations with Aperture change in video. There is also 12bit limit with continuous shooting like Sony. Canon is just doing like Sony with 2-4 years delay.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Feb 26, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> IMO the lack of DPAF is the one disappointment I see with this over anything else. it makes this a not-to-great option as a 4k vlogger camera.



If Canon introduces DPAF for razor sharp in-focus 4K video with the M5 Mk II they should implement an automatic warning that pops up on the screen:

"Make sure you have shaved nostrils before you start 4K vlogging!"

8)


----------



## Talys (Feb 26, 2018)

fussy III said:


> There have been exactly two reasons for which I would have bought this camera:
> 1) silent shooting for wildlife
> 2) Dual Pixel AF in 4K



1) If you buy a $740 camera for shooting wildlife, you're probably going to be disappointed.

2) Because there are many other $740 cameras that have DPAF and 4k, right?


From the types of questions I hear at camera shops, I think that the vast majority of people buying an entry level 4k camera are interested in three things: does it record 4k, is it easy to use, and how much does it cost?

At the entry level price point, most people are not a whole lot more sophisticated than that, and the rest of it boils down to what the salesperson makes a nice commission on and what's in stock at the store.

Within the first year, we'll probably see the camera discounted up to $100-$140 -- or bundled with extra stuff like EF adapter. I'm pretty sure that the M50 will move off the shelves pretty well.


----------



## 9VIII (Feb 26, 2018)

espressino said:


> The other thing doesn't concern the camera itself but what I'd call conditional or asterisked marketing (which appears to be more pronounced on the Canon Europe website): 10 fps! (oh, but only with locked focus. Under normal conditions it's 7.4 fps. Which is still impressive, so why not advertise that?) Silent shutter! (Oh, but only in a special scene mode; it is one of the scene modes just like for night photography or HDR). Enlarged AF area! (Nevermind, to all intents and purposes it's still 80%x80% if you want to use DPAF). I have a hunch that they do this so the 'better' specs can be displayed on camera ranking websites, and then it's up to the consumer to find out which is a 'true' spec and which one is inflated...



Canon is not the one to complain about, every Mirrorless body has always been marketed this way, and it’s one of the reasons the entire mirrorless industry (along with fake focal length/aperture ratings, especially on M4/3) has always smelled like snake oil.
(If Olympus were marketing a lens like Canon’s 55-250STM, they would call it “88-400mm f5.6”, except that’s the Canon crop ratio, “Olympus” would actually call it a 110-500mm f5.6 lens)

M4/3 cameras are the most ridiculous thing in this entire industry.


----------



## BillB (Feb 26, 2018)

Talys said:


> fussy III said:
> 
> 
> > There have been exactly two reasons for which I would have bought this camera:
> ...



There seem to be a couple of ways to look at the M50 value proposition. The simplest way, which Canon seems to be emphasizing, is that it is better than a smart phone and easy to use. Good video and interchangeable lenses are part of this proposition, at least to some degree. Another value proposition is that the M50 is one of several ways to fill the hole between a smartphone and a high end DSLR, something to bring along when you don't want lug your DSLR around. This puts the M50 more squarely in competition with the M5 and the M6, with cost/performance trade offs.


----------



## ritholtz (Feb 26, 2018)

jayphotoworks said:


> We laugh at Sony for releasing a high powered spec list to then pad it with caveats. Looks like Canon is going that route as well. 4K*! 1.6 Crop**! 5 Axis IS*** Silent Shutter****!
> 
> * No DPAF in 4K
> ** "Inception Crop": 1.6 4K crop on top of a 1.6 APS-C Crop
> ...


We are also not sure if sensor design is like new aps-c sensors or 6d2. It seems to do everything like M5 with less physical buttons, cheaper price, faster dpaf, no FPS penalty and smaller.


----------



## ritholtz (Feb 26, 2018)

Talys said:


> fussy III said:
> 
> 
> > There have been exactly two reasons for which I would have bought this camera:
> ...


If some one wants to buy Canon M camera for wild life, isn't M50 better choice than M5. It has latest version of DPAF and improved focusing system. I think it can also shoot with faster FPS.


----------



## transpo1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Talys said:


> fussy III said:
> 
> 
> > There have been exactly two reasons for which I would have bought this camera:
> ...



People will buy it thinking it has 4K but will ultimately be underwhelmed with the 4K it offers. They will keep it for the stills but if 4K is what will initially sell this, Canon is setting customers up for massive disappointment. 

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy now- Canon fans want 4K, Canon offers 4K but incredibly hobbled, cropped 4K with no DPAF. The people who buy it, buy it for stills. Canon does market research saying how 4K did not move that many cameras. And therefore they can continue to not offer it or offer hobbled versions of it.

Hopefully, this is really the turning point for Canon and not just them trying to prove once and for all that they don't need to offer high IQ 4K in their lineup.


----------



## transpo1 (Feb 26, 2018)

exquisitor said:


> MayaTlab said:
> 
> 
> > 3dit0r said:
> ...



Which is great news, because Canon now has no excuse not to offer no crop, DPAF 4K in every dual-processor model camera from here on out.


----------



## ritholtz (Feb 26, 2018)

Any one using M5, please explain these focus points modes. What is the deal with number of focus points. I thought every fixel is going to act like a focus point. I use live view with tracking option for video shooting. Never tried with by selecting single focusing point. AF operation vs AF mode is very confusing with M series.


----------



## Talys (Feb 26, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Which is great news, because Canon now has no excuse not to offer no crop, DPAF 4K in every dual-processor model camera from here on out.



I think that it is a given that every dual processor model is going to get DPAF 4k, since the 5D4 already has this. But why would you assume that it would be no crop? I'm not really sure why this is such a big deal. How many people want to shoot video wider than wider than 16mm full frame or 11mm APSC with a 1.6 crop? That's about 24mm full frame, which is quite wide, using easily accessible glass. 

The crop also gives you more pixels on the telephoto end, which is more expensive and bigger to lug around.



 ritholtz said:


> If some one wants to buy Canon M camera for wild life, isn't M50 better choice than M5. It has latest version of DPAF and improved focusing system. I think it can also shoot with faster FPS.



I understand why someone may want to buy a Canon M, and I understand why someone who has one would use it to photograph wildlife. But I can't imagine why someone would specifically choose a Canon M for wildlife photography.

Most obviously, all of the lenses that you'd want to use don't exist in EFM, and it's ergonomically handicapped when using telephoto lenses anyways. You can't balance one on a tripod/gimbal without a ridiculously long plate, because it will be too front-heavy, and I don't think it's controversial to say that optical viewfinders are still much more popular for wildlife photography. Not only is it easier to use, but you spend a lot of time looking down the barrel of the lens, and there are no EVFs that will run for many hours of constant use.




transpo1 said:


> People will buy it thinking it has 4K but will ultimately be underwhelmed with the 4K it offers. They will keep it for the stills but if 4K is what will initially sell this, Canon is setting customers up for massive disappointment.
> 
> It's a self-fulfilling prophecy now- Canon fans want 4K, Canon offers 4K but incredibly hobbled, cropped 4K with no DPAF. The people who buy it, buy it for stills. Canon does market research saying how 4K did not move that many cameras. And therefore they can continue to not offer it or offer hobbled versions of it.
> 
> Hopefully, this is really the turning point for Canon and not just them trying to prove once and for all that they don't need to offer high IQ 4K in their lineup.



There are people on the forums are looking for a silver bullet that does it all for the cheapest price possible.

But I think that the reality of it is that a lot of people actually buy entry level MILCs/DSLRs for some reasons and end up using it for others, or very little at all. Whether they have a good experience or a poor one with a camera (at the entry level end) is rarely about megapixels, dynamic range, encoding, bitrate, crop factor or any of that. It's mostly just, was it easy to use to record some video.

I think people who want the best 4k recording device possible will have to spend more money than this.

However, it's a stretch to say that 4k is "incredibly hobbled". Folks who are really into videography always say to use manual focus anyways. But personally, I am a Canon fan, and I could care less about 4k. I would much rather have that video record button reprogrammable to something else that has nothing to do with video


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 26, 2018)

ritholtz said:


> Any one using M5, please explain these focus points modes. What is the deal with number of focus points. I thought every fixel is going to act like a focus point. I use live view with tracking option for video shooting. Never tried with by selecting single focusing point. AF operation vs AF mode is very confusing with M series.



You cannot select individual DPAF pixels, of course. The sensor area is divided into selectable zones. The M5 has 49. The DSLRs have some similar number. Now, the M50 has a finer division of the zones, allowing you to pinpoint focus more precisely (the camera will focus _somewhere_ within the selected zone, most likely the closest feature, so smaller zone==more precise focusing). The Face+Tracking mode is not bound to these zones but picks its own zone that moved around the sensor as it tracks. And now the M50 can also focus specifically on the eye of a face it’s tracking, so the more precise focusing capability manifests there as well.


----------



## bhf3737 (Feb 26, 2018)

fussy III said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > The new silent mode can shoot without any shutter sound
> ...



The two reasons you mentioned, it is not clear whether they are your current job/hobby strict requirements or 
some nice-to-have use-cases you wished to fulfill using M50. 

Could you please tell me how you currently achieve this shooting absolutely silently with existing EF-lenses? 
And what is the problem with your current setting that you wanted it to be replaced with the M50? 

If you wished for some nice-to-have scenarios that you think they are not addressed by the M50, well we all get disappointed every now and then and we move on.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 26, 2018)

As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer _high IQ_ 4K' (or they're *******). 

Complainers gonna complain.


----------



## Don Haines (Feb 26, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer _high IQ_ 4K' (or they're *******).
> 
> Complainers gonna complain.



I feel sorry for all those people who do not read CR.... They will not know about all the limitations of this camera, buy one, and have to suffer through years of taking great pictures.... OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!


----------



## jayphotoworks (Feb 26, 2018)

Talys said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > Which is great news, because Canon now has no excuse not to offer no crop, DPAF 4K in every dual-processor model camera from here on out.
> ...



Actually if you consider the crop on this camera in 4K, it will be essentially shooting with a 1" sensor (M50 4K =2.56x, 1" = 2.7x). If you really want to shoot 4K, you would be better with many other 1" options including the Sony RX series. The next closest 1" ILC system was the discontinued Nikon 1 series. Nikon had to come out with a 6.7mm lens to make it shoot 18mm.


----------



## rrcphoto (Feb 26, 2018)

ritholtz said:


> Any one using M5, please explain these focus points modes. What is the deal with number of focus points. I thought every fixel is going to act like a focus point. I use live view with tracking option for video shooting. Never tried with by selecting single focusing point. AF operation vs AF mode is very confusing with M series.



in auto AF modes, the camera selects one of of a number of the focus "zones" for lack of a better words. If you are in AI Servo, face or probably eye detect, or single point AF, you can basically move the point to whereever you want in the area of supported AF coverage, irrespective of the zones.

basically the 49 point / 99 point / 139 point zones are only used for automatic AF areas. As processing gets faster, I would imagine these number of zones will continue to go up.


----------



## rrcphoto (Feb 26, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer _high IQ_ 4K' (or they're *******).
> 
> Complainers gonna complain.



while it certainly is a disappointment as far as what was offered, we all need to take a deep breath and step back from the ledge.

this was a cheap camera, ergonomically sitting to around where the M100 is. it doesn't supplant the M5, or the M6,etc.

4K h.264 at a healthy bitrate is actually a good sign of things to come and probably the only takeaway.

the other improvements should certainly spark the next generation of M5,6 and 100 camera bodies.

People didn't get a CINI 4K camera for $799 from Canon in an entry level camera. go figure.

one problems with rumors is that they tend to not manage expectations well.

everyone in here seems to be suffering from that. Heck some in here were giddy thinking it would have cini RAW light ..


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 26, 2018)

*"one problems with rumors is that they tend to not manage expectations well."
*

Just like other new camera threads - only putting in nickle but they want a dollar song.  Don't we all. 

Jack


----------



## fussy III (Feb 26, 2018)

Talys said:


> ritholtz said:
> 
> 
> > If some one wants to buy Canon M camera for wild life, isn't M50 better choice than M5. It has latest version of DPAF and improved focusing system. I think it can also shoot with faster FPS.
> ...



If you do not comprehend the need to combine truly silent shutter with workable AF in wildlife photography, you are simply not experienced in wildlife-photography. So why do you comment? 

I had stated I had invested into the Ef-System already. But no matter how fast or rugged of a Canon-Camera I employ, all of them make some kind of shutter noise. Silent mode just has not been truly silent with Canon so far because electronic shutter was missing from the system until now. Ruggedness and fps I can sacrifize in many situations, especially sitting in a hide photographing shy and alert mammals. So the M50 would have been "ok" for my needs if it had not been for the stupid and exclusive implementation of electronic shutter into SCN-mode.

None of this means to say that I applaud Canon for not offering a fast and rugged mirrorless pro-level camera with electronic shutter for bigger money.

Crippling silence into the SCN-mode must seem like a stupid move by Canon to any experienced photographer or intelligent being. No soup for anyone! I simply do not understand why Canon seems to be embracing incompetent fools only and to noone's benefit. IMO people who do not understand manual exposure should not be messing with electronic shutter.


----------



## Yasko (Feb 26, 2018)

What about the sensor? It's the same as on their new "higher" entry level cameras, isn't it?
So is it better than the previous that is in the 80D/M5 or is it some strange version with some disadvantages to keep the distance?


----------



## ritholtz (Feb 26, 2018)

Yasko said:


> What about the sensor? It's the same as on their new "higher" entry level cameras, isn't it?
> So is it better than the previous that is in the 80D/M5 or is it some strange version with some disadvantages to keep the distance?


Video on DPReview says it is same as 80d/M5 in terms of tech. So that is a great news in terms of low ISO DR.
Can some one explain expected behavior with respect to AF Operations vs AF mode, 

One-shot with Single, multi and face detection
Servo with Single, multi and face detection.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 26, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> while it certainly is a disappointment as far as what was offered, we all need to take a deep breath and step back from the ledge.



I'd say it's only a disappointment to those with the most optimistic interpretations of the leaked specs. Even as is, it's really progressive tech-wise for an entry-level Canon camera and great value for money.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 26, 2018)

ritholtz said:


> Can some one explain expected behavior with respect to AF Operations vs AF mode




Single: You pick an AF rectangle somewhere on the screen, like you would with a phone. The camera won't move the point automatically. Just like with OVF AF but you can pick exactly where to focus, not just select from a grid of AF points.
One Shot: When you start AF (BBF/shutter half-press/touch focus if enabled) the camera focuses once and then disengages AF.
Servo AF: The camera keeps focusing on whatever's within the selected AF rectangle.


Multi: You pick one of the predefined large AF zones, each containing a 3x3 grid of smaller AF rectangles, or the whole AF area. The camera decides which AF rectangles to use to focus within the selected zone. This is basically exactly how OVF AF zones work in a DSLR.
One Shot: The camera selects where to focus within the selected zone, focuses, then disengages.
Servo AF: The camera keeps focusing on whatever's within the selected zone, automatically switching between AF rectangles based on some logic.


Face+Tracking: You pick an object or feature and the camera starts tracking it even when it's not actively focusing. If there are faces in the scene and you haven't picked anything else, it tracks them. If the camera loses what it's tracking and doesn't find anything else, it falls back to Multi.
One Shot: The camera stops tracking, focuses once on whatever's currently within the tracking rectangle, then disengages.
Servo AF: The camera keeps tracking and focusing at the same time.


----------



## Deleted member 378664 (Feb 26, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> dpreview is reporting:
> 
> 4K video at 1.6 crop *with no DPAF* at a bitrate of 120mbps h.264



On the german EOS M50 site it is stated:


> Bei 4K-Aufnahmen mit Movie Servo AF wird die Methode zur Kontrast-Erkennung eingesetzt.


translated:


> During 4k recording* with* movie servo AF the CDAF method will be used.


Which AF method will or can be used with movie servo AF switched off?

Or does the camera do not have the possibility to switch off servo AF as it is the case with the M5?

Frank


----------



## tabinnorway (Feb 26, 2018)

Yet another pointless camera from Canon for those of us who want a decent hybrid solution. Canon is still years and years behind the competition, and moving slower than a glacier.

- The crop factor is absurd
- Only contrast detect AF in 4K

Sadly the masses will eat this up.


----------



## tabinnorway (Feb 26, 2018)

Talys said:


> Whoa...
> 
> Fully articulating screen!!! <3
> Touch drag autofocus
> ...



Nah, not whoa. Meh. Still years and years behind the competition. It's like Canon is not even trying.


----------



## rrcphoto (Feb 26, 2018)

Yasko said:


> What about the sensor? It's the same as on their new "higher" entry level cameras, isn't it?
> So is it better than the previous that is in the 80D/M5 or is it some strange version with some disadvantages to keep the distance?



well, there's some special sauce added. it's not a generational leap but there are improvements.

a) wider AF area of coverage for some EF and EF-M lenses
b) 1EV better low light AF (-2-18 versus -1-18)

so something in the sensor has been improved. whether or not that will translate to an IQ improvement? who knows.


----------



## MayaTlab (Feb 26, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> Yasko said:
> 
> 
> > What about the sensor? It's the same as on their new "higher" entry level cameras, isn't it?
> ...



Both of these may not be related to the sensor, but to how the information is processed. Fujifilm, for example, managed to improve the X-H1's PDAF in low light by 0,5EV with the same sensor and processor, just by upgrading the software.


----------



## rrcphoto (Feb 26, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > while it certainly is a disappointment as far as what was offered, we all need to take a deep breath and step back from the ledge.
> ...



there's certainly alot of good things in there, when the specs first came out last night I was pretty disappointed. today I'm taking another look and deciding it's an interesting first shot at quite a few little changes that will improve stills and video.

if this is the "new entry" level camera on the M line, i think good things are going to happen for the rest of the lineup.

Let's face it .. an entry level camera shooting off at 7 / 10 fps, decent 1080, suspect 4K but still 4K, evf, silent shutter (IR is saying it's silent), C-RAW, 1EV for AF, more AF zones for auto-af modes, eye detect,etc. that's a pretty good entry level camera.

the big hurdle for canon is what do they do with the M6 and M5? do they get far better at 4K video or are they going to say .. this is "good enough".

if they say this is good enough, then I think people have a good right to really bitch about it  

but frankly. I can count the times on one finger to how many times i used video on my M5. I'd rather the stills improvements any day of the week.


----------



## Talys (Feb 26, 2018)

tabinnorway said:


> Yet another pointless camera from Canon for those of us who want a decent hybrid solution. Canon is still years and years behind the competition, and moving slower than a glacier.
> 
> - The crop factor is absurd
> - Only contrast detect AF in 4K
> ...



You know, that is contradictory, right?

If the masses will eat it up, by definition, it isn't pointless to either Canon or the masses


----------



## Talys (Feb 26, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> but frankly. I can count the times on one finger to how many times i used video on my M5. I'd rather the stills improvements any day of the week.



That describes me exactly. I'd give up 4k for one programmable button or dial.


----------



## dak723 (Feb 26, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer _high IQ_ 4K' (or they're *******).
> ...



Yes, how sad. I wonder how many of the compainers are trolls or paid by Sony or Nikon. Maybe none - which would be even sadder because that would mean they are just idiots. Yes, give me an entry level camera with 4K and DPAF - even if technologically not possible (and certainly not at that price point). So I guess to make it possible, Canon should just give them dual processors for the same price. And other top level features for the same price. 

It's an introductory level camera to try and move folks from Smartphones to ILCs. Apparently great for vloggers (who don't need 4K, and probably don't need DPAF either (but who cares about reality). Instead of realizing that they are foolish for having way to high expectations for an entry level camera, they blame Canon for putting out a product - that quite frankly - does almost all they were wishing for yesterday.


----------



## snappy604 (Feb 26, 2018)

seems like a decent entry level camera from those getting into SLR from their phones... I think the market for it is clear. Its frustrating to see an almost stellar camera held back because of marketing forces (price/target). However neat to see this and the new flash have some new technology.. gives me some hope for the next few releases.

Also lately changing my mindset on their gear. Canon tends to be conservative in their specs. Thought my 80d was so-so camera when I originally got it, but found I could push it much harder than my 7d and get good results through processing. Always want better, but pretty satisfied with it given the price/market it was aimed at.


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Feb 26, 2018)

dak723 said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



The technology for 4K and DPAF technology is not available at an affordable price point? Cell phones have had it for around a year now. I understand shutting out trolls, but it's quite odd to hearing someone going on a monologue against people for calling a subpar video product when it's exactly that. Followed by making large assumptions about video content creators. 

The lack of DPAF in 4K is not the reason this is a lame video product, it's the massive crop in 4K on a lens system not designed for such a crop. And no, it's not unreasonable to expect reliable 4K in an 800 dollar camera, the GX85 shoots a reliable no crop 4K with IBIS on a lens system designed for it at a much cheaper cost. It's terribly inaccurate to say the technology isn't possible for a decent 4K on a cheap camera.

The camera is what it is, it's a great and handy photography camera. But anyone with video in mind should be looking elsewhere. Myself included, I was set to buy this camera until I heard about the nasty crop that'll make my fisheye lens look almost like a portrait lens.


----------



## rrcphoto (Feb 26, 2018)

crazyrunner33 said:


> The technology for 4K and DPAF technology is not available at an affordable price point? Cell phones have had it for around a year now.



I've yet to see a 24MP APS-C camera in a smartphone either.

even without the APS-C, most cellphones are far less than 24MP. with DPAF, the heavy lifting is phase difference calculations on all those pixels.


----------



## mistaspeedy (Feb 26, 2018)

Just to be clear, any proper comparison needs to be done with other APSC sized sensors and cameras.
Smartphones have much smaller sensors and much smaller total resolution, so it is easier to read the whole sensor.
Realistically speaking, you have the world's highest tech processors being produced by Apple, Samsung and their various industry partners... this level of investment is not possible by Camera companies.
They will be somewhat behind the curve for the foreseeable future.

I assume we will have a whole lineup of 4K mirrorless cameras by the end of the year, with models coming in above the M50, offering more features.

Dont be surprised if they keep the 'camera and features you really wanted' for the $2000 price bracket... for cameras like the 7D mark III or the mirrorless equivalent they have yet to announce.

Fuji have no problem charging $1900 for their new 4K camera, which requires a $330 grip if you want more than 15 minutes of 4K footage. What makes you think we are going to get this for $779? 

Few mention what Canon has done right...
Fuji - 15 minutes of 4K or buy $330 grip (costs $1900)
Sony - 30 minutes of 4K if you are lucky and your camera doesnt overheat (costs $1300).
Canon - 30 minutes of 4K, works without problems (we'll see)... costs $779

Looks quite good in that context for many users that don't need pro-level IQ 4K.


----------



## Act444 (Feb 26, 2018)

As an M6 owner, i’m looking at this camera and wondering what the differences are. It appears these two cameras are more or less meant to co-exist - the M6 being more “enthusiast” with its numerous dials and custom modes (albeit no viewfinder) and small size, and the M50 being essentially an M100 in an M5 body and also w/4K video. The improvements seem nice but it also looks very simplistic. Maybe the video functions are worth a look - mic input? Time sync (w/external audio - something the M6 lacks)? If it can be a legit video recording companion to an external audio recording setup = might be something to look into.


----------



## Valvebounce (Feb 26, 2018)

Hi exquisite. 
I think you will find that of these two only the 1DXII has two Digic processors, the 5DIV lists only Digic 6+ the 1DXII lists Dual Digic 6+. 

Cheers, Graham. 



exquisitor said:


> 1DXII and 5DIV both have dual DIGIC processors and they both have DPAF at 4K.


----------



## BillB (Feb 26, 2018)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi exquisite.
> I think you will find that of these two only the 1DXII has two Digic processors, the 5DIV lists only Digic 6+ the 1DXII lists Dual Digic 6+.
> 
> Cheers, Graham.
> ...



In addition to a Digic 6+, the 5DIV also has a Digic 6, which handles the AF and the Metering, IIRC.


----------



## mistaspeedy (Feb 26, 2018)

Actually... to be quite precise:

5D mark IV (two processors total)
Digic 6 for metering and tracking
Digic 6+ for image processing

1DX mark II (three processors total)
Digic 6 for metering and tracking
Dual Digic 6+ for image processing

1DX (two processors total)
Dual Digic 5+ (no DPAF and no 4K)

So, I guess it takes this single Digic 6 processor just for autofocus tracking and metering... for 4K DPAF... with no processing power left over for actual data processing.

I guess the Digic 6+ is doing the encoding work for video, etc.

BillB beat me to it... hehe


----------



## Valvebounce (Feb 26, 2018)

Hi BillB, mistaspeedy. 
Thank you for the education, where do you guys find this info, I checked the Canon spec pages before posting! I guess the post from exquisitor should really have said 1DXII has three Digic processors, 5DIV has dual DIGIC processors! 

Cheers, Graham. 



BillB said:


> Valvebounce said:
> 
> 
> > Hi exquisite.
> ...


----------



## Talys (Feb 26, 2018)

Act444 said:


> As an M6 owner, i’m looking at this camera and wondering what the differences are. It appears these two cameras are more or less meant to co-exist - the M6 being more “enthusiast” with its numerous dials and custom modes (albeit no viewfinder) and small size, and the M50 being essentially an M100 in an M5 body and also w/4K video. The improvements seem nice but it also looks very simplistic. Maybe the video functions are worth a look - mic input? Time sync (w/external audio - something the M6 lacks)? If it can be a legit video recording companion to an external audio recording setup = might be something to look into.



Considering the M6 line versus M50 line, it looks to like me like M5/M6 are stratified to be more "enthusiast", currently, by giving them more physical controls -- with M6 a smaller footprint camera in exchange for no built-in VF.

One could surmise that if the M50 is successful, Canon could build an M60 that has similar ergonomics to the M6, and is $100-$150 or so less.

Moving forward, I would expect M5 Mk2 and M6 Mk2 to have the tech that is in the M50, like silent shutter, pupil AF, 4k video -- and perhaps maybe even some better versions of each. I would also expect that Mx cameras be further differentiated, because frankly, a lot of people don't really care about those extra dials, so Canon will want other reasons to upsell them by a couple hundred bucks.

At the moment, there is a HUGE benefit for stills for M50, in my opinion: a fully articulating screen versus a tilt-only screen. For me, I would take the fully articulating screen any day of the week (hell, I'd take it over 4k video). And, of course, more FPS and pupil AF are better than not, but just give it a year or so and it should be in M5/M6.

Since naming conventions are a fetish of this site... Canon should have named the current models M50 and M60 to be consistent with xxD, and the new camera M500, to be consistent with Rebel xxxD numbering. Then, full frame cameras could have been M5, a superpro M1, and a pro MILC APSC called the M7. Wouldn't that have been logical? But noooooo... 8)




snappy604 said:


> Thought my 80d was so-so camera when I originally got it, but found I could push it much harder than my 7d and get good results through processing. Always want better, but pretty satisfied with it given the price/market it was aimed at.



When I bought my 80D, I hardly looked at reviews and forums; it was an auto-buy because I really loved the 70D. At first, I thought... huh.. not that big of a deal -- but it was fine, because I wanted another xxD body anyways, because I needed to catch to have 2 tripod positions. But after using it for a week (again, never having read a review), I absolutely fell in love with it. 

If I had listened to the reviews, I wouldn't have bought a 6DII, and I absolutely love that camera too. Like you said, though, I'm always looking forward to better


----------



## BillB (Feb 26, 2018)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi BillB, mistaspeedy.
> Thank you for the education, where do you guys find this info, I checked the Canon spec pages before posting! I guess the post from exquisitor should really have said 1DXII has three Digic processors, 5DIV has dual DIGIC processors!
> 
> Cheers, Graham.
> ...



Wikipedia.


----------



## scyrene (Feb 26, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer _high IQ_ 4K' (or they're *******).
> 
> Complainers gonna complain.



I must be the only person in the world who *likes* the idea of a crop - as I'd use 4K for wildlife work with longer lenses. For those needing wide, the 11-22 EF-M lens is cheap. For people doing ultrawide 4K work, this is clearly not for them (but surely they are a minority too?).

~~~

My overall reaction to this camera was, it's really well priced, even here in the UK! As for its limitations, some people had assumed from leaked specs it would be above the M5, but now we know the compromises - I still think it sounds a lot of camera for the money.


----------



## scyrene (Feb 26, 2018)

fussy III said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > ritholtz said:
> ...



Out of interest, do the mammals not also respond to the sound of the focus motor in the lens? I tried to photograph my sister's cat, and it ran away the moment I half-pressed the shutter button. (I shoot plenty of wildlife, but I've never known an animal flee at the shutter sound, but it's mostly not mammals and perhaps it varies with the area of the world you're in). Still, this camera is probably not aimed at wildlife shooters, so it's a bit beside the point. It's for beginners, or early enthusiasts focused on video/small size, surely?


----------



## scyrene (Feb 26, 2018)

tabinnorway said:


> Yet another pointless camera from Canon for those of us who want a decent hybrid solution. Canon is still years and years behind the competition, and moving slower than a glacier.
> 
> - The crop factor is absurd
> - Only contrast detect AF in 4K
> ...



You created an account just to bitch and betray your snobbery, how boring.



dak723 said:


> Yes, how sad. I wonder how many of the compainers are trolls or paid by Sony or Nikon. Maybe none - which would be even sadder because that would mean they are just idiots.



There was a study on it, as empirical as possible in this I suppose, a year or two ago, which found that strong negative reviews/posts online are overwhelmingly not paid-for, but people who are emotionally invested in other brands, and take it upon themselves to defend them/trash the competition. A curious aspect of psychology...


----------



## Don Haines (Feb 26, 2018)

scyrene said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer _high IQ_ 4K' (or they're *******).
> ...



+1

If they want ultra wide video, why are they messing around with a crop camera???


----------



## Etienne (Feb 26, 2018)

I have too many of these sluggish, half-hearted cameras to give another one a try.
Look at this: the M6 (and M5) are almost new, and the M50 comes out with 4K, CR3, and other goodies, but the usability is crippled with barely any control dials or buttons.
Canon just refuses to go all in on any of these mirrorless cams


----------



## scyrene (Feb 26, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Ha, good point! Although even then, for under £1000, you can get a 4K equivalent FOV of ~28mm, which is a lot cheaper than any FF (Canon - maybe others, I'm no expert on this) options. I think Neuro says, the chief advantage of APS-C is price, and that seems still to be the case.


----------



## ritholtz (Feb 26, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> ritholtz said:
> 
> 
> > Can some one explain expected behavior with respect to AF Operations vs AF mode
> ...


Thanks for the explanation. I am going to read it for few times and play it with my camera. I have SL2. But it has same settings with live view. While shooting video, AF operations doesn't mean anything right (One shot or Sever). I am assuming AF mode setting (Single, Multi, tracking) is the one we have to worry. Anyway, I always use face tracking + live view setting.

Thanks


----------



## stevelee (Feb 26, 2018)

I'm not in the market for either of these cameras, or really any other kind of body right now, so I've not fantasied over the rumors or spent much time contemplating the specs. But one feature did jump out at me:



> Built-in OLED Electronic Viewfinder with Touch and Drag Autofocus



I've not used any EVF cameras, so I don't understand how you can touch, much less drag, anything in one.

I'm also fuzzy about picking focus points with your eyes. If your pupils are dilated, will that affect the choice?

I still haven't seen any math to convince me that cropped 4K using pixels directly is going to be that much inferior to interpolations from a larger number of pixels. I don't need full geometry proofs or even DSP theory, but if you can point me to a page or video that demonstrates it, I'd appreciate that.

As always, I'm skeptical of the real-world quality difference between low-end 4K and less compressed 1080p, but that's probably not something you can do much to allay, short of tests that are probably more trouble than they are worth.


----------



## Don Haines (Feb 26, 2018)

stevelee said:


> I'm not in the market for either of these cameras, or really any other kind of body right now, so I've not fantasied over the rumors or spent much time contemplating the specs. But one feature did jump out at me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think that the touch and drag autofocus is with the rear touchscreen.....

And with video, I think that it is the bitrate that truly measures the quality.....


----------



## IglooEater (Feb 26, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> crazyrunner33 said:
> 
> 
> > The technology for 4K and DPAF technology is not available at an affordable price point? Cell phones have had it for around a year now.
> ...



Or one with DPAF. Yes some of them have phase detection, but to my knowledge they’re all Hybrid systems not DPAF.


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## alienman (Feb 27, 2018)

I wouldn't say the m50 is a huge disappointment, it just doesn't strike my interest for video or photo. No dual pixel autofocus in 4k was the deal breaker for me, thats what makes canon special in my opinion. I don't see canon making a cable mirrorless camera anytime soon. The competition is much too far ahead (Sony, Panasonic, Fuji) but they can make a comeback with a new version of the m5. I also do not see a mirrorless full frame from canon being possible anytime in the future either.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 27, 2018)

Etienne said:


> I have too many of these sluggish, half-hearted cameras to give another one a try.
> Look at this: the M6 (and M5) are almost new, and the M50 comes out with 4K, CR3, and other goodies, but the usability is crippled with barely any control dials or buttons.
> Canon just refuses to go all in on any of these mirrorless cams



the M50 is entry level.

The M6 was a $800 camera, even the M5 was a $1000 camera. you expect canon to go all in at those price points?

the M5 is highly competent. I wouldn't call it sluggish either.

it's also over 1.5 years old and due for a replacement.

M6 is a year old and also as well, due for a replacement.


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## Don Haines (Feb 27, 2018)

scyrene said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



Yes, and the thing is an introductory level camera... an introductory camera that , for some reason, people want to outperform the 1DX2.....

It could have been better, it could have been worse, but all in all, it seems like a good deal to me.....

I eagerly await the reviews.... and BTW, the CR3 files are supposed to be a 14 bit format....


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## alienman (Feb 27, 2018)

Also before anyone buys the m50 for 4k vlogging make sure you watch some somple footage, the contrast detection doesn't look impressive at all.


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## Talys (Feb 27, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



There is another issue, too. In order to eliminate crop factor, it's necessary to scale whatever native resolution of the sensor is to 4k. I frankly do not know (or care) whether a resized 24 megapixels to 8.3 megapixels (3840 × 2160) looks better or worse than the center 8.3 megapixels of a sensor, though I suspect that on consumer grade lenses with cruddy corners, a center crop may be favorable. Perhaps Canon decided that the latter was superior output.

Also, as has already been stated by many people ~ 28mm full frame equivalent is very wide anyways; I'm not sure what the demand for wider than that on an entry level 4k camera is.


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## alienman (Feb 27, 2018)

+1

If they want ultra wide video, why are they messing around with a crop camera???
[/quote]

1dx and 5d4 also have 4k crop.


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## Talys (Feb 27, 2018)

IglooEater said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > crazyrunner33 said:
> ...



AFAIK, I have read that Samsung S7, S8 (and I assume S9), and maybe the latest Google Pixel, are DPAF.

S7 and onwards are DEFINITELY not PDAF, because Samsung made a big deal about using dual pixel autofocus. I'm guessing they just licensed it from Canon.


But anyways, smartphones having DPAF is not nearly as big a big deal as APSC or FF. Smartphones have a huge depth of field and wide field of view due to their tiny sensors. Even at F/2.8 or 2.5 or whatever it is on an S8, the DoF is very high.


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## tmroper (Feb 27, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > R1-7D said:
> ...


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## Don Haines (Feb 27, 2018)

Talys said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



The centre of the lens is the sweet spot, so taking the 4K crop from the middle of the sensor makes sense....

To do anything other than the crop means pixel bining.... and anything other than an integer amount requires significant processing time.... if you had a 7680 pixelwide sensor, you could do a 2X2 bin.... but you don’t have that many pixels so it is either cropped or nothing.... or wait for more computing power and hope that the camera does not overheat....

Let’s say you have a 15mm lens on your crop camera and you want to shoot the widest 4K you can.... the cropped 4K is going to make your Apparentl focal length 22.5 mm and the Apsc crop makes it 36 degrees. That’s you practical limit for the camera..... go ff and you can use a similar lens and get a 23mm equivalent....


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## bhf3737 (Feb 27, 2018)

Talys said:


> ...
> Also, as has already been stated by many people ~ 28mm full frame equivalent is very wide anyways; I'm not sure what the demand for wider than that on an entry level 4k camera is.


28mm FF equivalent is a very decent field of view that can be achieved by this tiny camera using 11-22mm lens. 
Currently there is no fixed lens professional 4K video camera (price range 3-5K) that can shoot anything wider than 28mm. The best offering from Sony PXW-Z90V has equivalent 29mm. Only Canon XF400 reaches equivalent 25.5mm. Also 120mbps and 30min continuous recording is quite respectable for M50.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 27, 2018)

Taking a 1:1 crop from the middle of the lens is terrible for quality... the 'sweet spot' would need to be impossibly sweet to get total clarity.

This would mean that you need a lens that resolves all 24 megapixels perfectly when you zoom in 1:1, and then you take the middle UHD resolution and use that for video.

We get more noise and less color detail since the image needs to be debayered... and on top of it all we have an AA filter blurring things, so it can never be pixel perfect, even with a perfect lens.
The 1.6x crop on top of the APSC crop is just too much.

Just to be clear... it seems 'good enough' for this price point... but there are many things that can be improved upon in more expensive models.


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## syyeung1 (Feb 27, 2018)

Etienne said:


> I have too many of these sluggish, half-hearted cameras to give another one a try.
> Look at this: the M6 (and M5) are almost new, and the M50 comes out with 4K, CR3, and other goodies, but the usability is crippled with barely any control dials or buttons.
> Canon just refuses to go all in on any of these mirrorless cams



This is a camera aimed at beginners. Less dials and controls may actually be better. We are in a generation where everything is operated via touchscreen, which Canon has the most logical layout of all the camera manufacturers.

The only concern that stopped me from pre-ordering the M50 is the 4K AF. I wanted to use it for my kid's school events. If this is not good enough, I will get a GX85 as a stop-gap until M5II is released (if the M5II doesn't address this, then I will probably be disappointed).


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## syyeung1 (Feb 27, 2018)

scyrene said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer _high IQ_ 4K' (or they're *******).
> ...



I was thinking the same as well. I wanted a camera to take videos for my kid's school events. I will be able to get away with 18-150 with the crop. Just hope the AF is good enough for my use


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## Dominion003 (Feb 27, 2018)

At this point, im still wondering whether to get the M50 or go to M5/M6 as a travel camera. I preordered the M50 just in case, but hesitant to keep the preorder or maybe just cancel and get a M5/M6.


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## ritholtz (Feb 27, 2018)

mistaspeedy said:


> Taking a 1:1 crop from the middle of the lens is terrible for quality... the 'sweet spot' would need to be impossibly sweet to get total clarity.
> 
> This would mean that you need a lens that resolves all 24 megapixels perfectly when you zoom in 1:1, and then you take the middle UHD resolution and use that for video.
> 
> ...


Most of current Canon crop cameras comes with 3x - 10x crop mode. One of the crop mode does 1:1 which produces better quality video. Like with M50, there is no dpaf with crop mode. Not sure about 4k crop quality with M50.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 27, 2018)

mistaspeedy said:


> Actually... to be quite precise:



Actually, not quite precise. Or to phrase it more appropriately, not quite accurate... But that's ok, I fixed it for ya. 




mistaspeedy said:


> 5D mark IV (two processors total)
> Digic 6 for metering and tracking color/face detection
> Digic 6+ for image processing and AF
> 
> ...


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## alienman (Feb 27, 2018)

syyeung1 said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > I have too many of these sluggish, half-hearted cameras to give another one a try.
> ...



Get the G85 better stabilization, AF, fully articulated screen and weather sealed for a similar price.


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## Chaitanya (Feb 27, 2018)

Unboxing and video quality of M50(for 4k video quality watch from 10min mark). That camera cannot even keep face in focus with face detect AF. 
https://youtu.be/GCchn2dH5cU


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## Don Haines (Feb 27, 2018)

mistaspeedy said:


> Taking a 1:1 crop from the middle of the lens is terrible for quality... the 'sweet spot' would need to be impossibly sweet to get total clarity.
> 
> This would mean that you need a lens that resolves all 24 megapixels perfectly when you zoom in 1:1, and then you take the middle UHD resolution and use that for video.
> 
> ...


You do realize that video is HEAVILY compressed and that you are not going to get "pixel perfect" from any video on any "introductory" camera.....

BTW, the 4K video is at 120 Mbits/second.....
That's 15Mbytes per second....
That's 625Kbytes per frame....
Each frame is 15.82Mbytes.....
In other words, the video is compressed to 4 percent of the original size..... "Pixel perfect" will not survive such compression.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 27, 2018)

neuroanatomist:
Thank you for providing more information than wikipedia has to offer.
It seems that we get more and more detailed information with each additional person contributing to the thread 

Don Haines:
All I'm saying is that things would take a nice step upwards in quality with a bigger sample area and resolution. The situation is quite far from ideal.... but I dont expect ideal from a camera at this price point.

Ideally we would have a sensor whose 16:9 4k sampling resolution is 7680 x 4320... plus the extra pixels in height to get 3:2 for photography.... but that would be far too many pixels on a small sensor.


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## stevelee (Feb 27, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> I think that the touch and drag autofocus is with the rear touchscreen.....



That has to be it. Getting your finger inside the camera would seem to be really difficult.



Don Haines said:


> And with video, I think that it is the bitrate that truly measures the quality.....



I would expect that, too.


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## spice5.com (Feb 27, 2018)

R1-7D said:


> Wow, no DPAF in 4K. Never mind, no longer interested. Maybe next time, Canon.



Ditto. What a bummer no DPAF in 4K.


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## Don Haines (Feb 27, 2018)

mistaspeedy said:


> neuroanatomist:
> Thank you for providing more information than wikipedia has to offer.
> It seems that we get more and more detailed information with each additional person contributing to the thread
> 
> ...



It would take a 37.5 megapixel sensor.... I think we will get there, but not for many years.... perhaps the next digit chip will have the additional computing power to take a 12X12 pixel block and convert into 8x8 blocks for 4K on the fly.... that would get rid of a lot of the sensor cropping of the video......


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## justaCanonuser (Feb 27, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer _high IQ_ 4K' (or they're *******).
> 
> Complainers gonna complain.



I foresee the 8K debate coming soon. Today already the internet is clogged with bad full HD vlogs. Did anyone already scientfically investigate the CO2 emissions caused by underwhelming vlogger's ego shows? Climate change caused by deadly boring 4K+ vlogging may have to be included in future ICTP reports.

Caution: this post is meant ironically!


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## hne (Feb 27, 2018)

stevelee said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > And with video, I think that it is the bitrate that truly measures the quality.....
> ...



Bitrate is not a useful measure of visual quality. This details some alternatives: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4000353/

A 9.8Mbps MPEG2 DVD is not going to look better than a 5Mbps FullHD h.264.
The former is over 1 bit/pixel and the latter not quite 0.1 bit/pixel. Still, anyone would say the latter looks better.

Not even keeping the codec identical makes it possible to say anything using bitrate as a measurement. I've seen 1.5Mbps h.264 look better than 2.5Mbps h.264 between two encoders encoding to the same video spec.


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## transpo1 (Feb 27, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



If it’s a technical limitation of processing power / speed / heat, then it can be understood. But with a new Digic processor, 2.5x crop seems a little ridiculous. I can’t imagine that Canon, with all its engineering capability would have to resort to that unless they wanted to. They were clearly just trying to hit the marketing term “4K” without really making a decent 4K product.


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## Equinox (Feb 27, 2018)

Lets be honest, for the price point this is a solid mirrorless spec. This M50 is a perfect cam to get new enthusiasts into their ecosystem. 

Really looking forward to reading / watching the reviews on how this one performs, if this is the specs of their entry level mirrorless then their flagship offerings (I am looking at you M5 MK II) should prove to be a very nice cam(s) indeed. 

IMHO I think Canon will pull all the stops out to regain lost users. I see a lot of people with Sony's with Canon L glass mounted, but it will have to be a lot of stops to catch up with the mirrorless kings thats for sure.


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## Sharlin (Feb 27, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> If it’s a technical limitation of processing power / speed / heat, then it can be understood. But with a new Digic processor, 2.5x crop seems a little ridiculous. I can’t imagine that Canon, with all its engineering capability would have to resort to that unless they wanted to. They were clearly just trying to hit the marketing term “4K” without really making a decent 4K product.



On the contrary, it seems to me that crop makes little sense except if it's for engineering reasons. (Well, of course engineering reasons are ultimately economical reasons, but still. If they just wanted to differentiate this from eventual higher-end bodies, without other constraints, they could have dropped the bitrate instead.)


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## dak723 (Feb 27, 2018)

mistaspeedy said:


> Taking a 1:1 crop from the middle of the lens is terrible for quality... the 'sweet spot' would need to be impossibly sweet to get total clarity.



And you know this how?

I would say the exact opposite. Glad they are cropping from the center. Much better quality than using the entire sensor.

See, anybody can say anything!


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## Talys (Feb 27, 2018)

dak723 said:


> mistaspeedy said:
> 
> 
> > Taking a 1:1 crop from the middle of the lens is terrible for quality... the 'sweet spot' would need to be impossibly sweet to get total clarity.
> ...




This is exactly why, when I brought up this issue originally, I said that I didn't know whether the 1:1 crop or a resized crop would be better -- I don't know that many (or any?) of us at this forum know the answer authoritatively to that, especially as it pertains to the quality of video, as opposed to the quality of a single still.

Aren't a lot of 4k 1" broadcast video sensors 1:1? And as I said previously, a lot of people using EFM to record video will be using EFM lenses; and most of those are better in the center than the corners.

If a 1:1 is about the same quality as a resized image, what would be the advantage of going uncropped? The maximum field of view at 11mm is the equivalent of 28mm full frame, which is very wide for video, and as others has pointed out, is about as wide as it gets in pro video rigs.

Now, if someone wants show 1.6 crop Canon video and say, "that is terrible quality video compared to this uncropped one!" I'm happy to click and compare. But otherwise, the whole crop thing just sounds like bellyaching. I mean, someone could whine the other way, and say, hey, this 1.0 crop is horrible -- I don't get as much effective magnification.


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## Don Haines (Feb 27, 2018)

Talys said:


> dak723 said:
> 
> 
> > mistaspeedy said:
> ...


Bingo!

I'd like to have the 1-1 crop from the middle of the sensor for shooting wildlife in 2K video mode.... makes the equivalent lens length longer.....

Conflicting demands are hard to reconcile.


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## stevelee (Feb 27, 2018)

hne said:


> stevelee said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



There's a certain amount of "all other things being equal" assumed, and of course, all other things are rarely equal. I'm reminded of the IPB vs. ALL-I compression discussion. The lack of the latter in the 6D2 is cited as reason Canon is *******. The latter would seem inherently superior, but in the real world, ALL-I at twice the bitrate is not likely to be as good quality as IPB. ALL-I's main advantage seems to be when editing video on older, slower computers. I'm not going to blithely assume that shooting 4K with my iPhone is going to produce higher quality than shooting 1080p with one of my real cameras.


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## crazyrunner33 (Feb 28, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Bingo!
> 
> I'd like to have the 1-1 crop from the middle of the sensor for shooting wildlife in 2K video mode.... makes the equivalent lens length longer.....
> 
> Conflicting demands are hard to reconcile.



The Rebel T3i from 7 years ago had this feature, it allowed you to shoot 1080 over the whole sensor, or 1080 from a 5x center crop(10x as well, but resolution loss). The GH4 and GH5 has this feature as well.


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## fussy III (Feb 28, 2018)

scyrene said:


> fussy III said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...



Individual pets will have concerns about a camera, because they either see an unfamiliar being in it or because they associate the experience of being molested. The sound of the USM may be judged or associated in that same context and it is usually very nearby and easily detected in a closed environment with ceiling. If one was to hide in a small cave in order to photograph a hunting wild cat there, upon hearing the USM it would probably respond in a similar manner as your sister's cat did and for similar reasons: a) unfamiliar sound likely caused by an unfimiliar being b) confined space making any threat more immediate

However I am dealing mostly with wild animals in the open (as most wildlife-photographers would): In North American or in Subsaharan National Parks, many mammals do not pay attention to shutter sounds because they are familiar with them and have long categorized them as this insignificant noise associated with the insignificant presence of an insignificant sort of humans. In fact the shutter may aid them in saving energy and in categorizing these particular humans as not being harmful. In the same way noisy Americans, Israelis or members of otherwise easily exited cultures may be easier to assess for African wildlife (as being harmless) than a safari-bus containing respectfully whispering Norwegians. So noise may indeed have a calming effect on some animals under certain conditions - of course only until a certain point - one might call it the annoyment-threshold, which is reached the moment that other potential hazards are dangerously being subdued.

On my part I am photographing mainly in dry North African and Eurasian environments where hunting is either badly controlled or permitted and where animals are not accustomed to wildlife-photographers or even hikers. Any sound unknown or human is seen as a potential or immediate threat. So there is a regional aspect about my need of employing electronic shutter. However I would assume in North America in areas where coyotes are being hunted, despite their initial curiosity, they would move away after hearing a shutter-noise just as a Golden Jackal would in Algeria.

Regarding the effect of USM in the open from my experience I can report that a USM-motor mostly goes unnoticed (unless very proximate) whereas a sounding shutter alerts or flushes the animals once it is being released (with or without mirrorslap). I have for example been photographing with EOS 1n, EOS 1D IV, EOS 60D, EOS 80D, EOS 5DsR and they all alert wolves, gazelles, drinking sandgrouse when my silent Sony A7s (focusing manually out of technological necessity) does not.

Of all the mentioned EOS cameras, the 5DsR is the least noisy, but when there is no wind in the desert, a gazelle will still pay attention to its shutternoise even from 250m distance while the USM Motor it will only pay attention to from appr. 20m (when the reflection from the lens-front element will already play a bigger role). Sandgrouse are notoriously alert when drinking/bathing and I had to switch from the silent mode of the 70D to the A7s at a distance of appr. 12m. Foxes and wolves will pass my hide ignoring USM at anything beyond 15m unless they stand and listen, which they will upon registring a shutter-noise. Just to give you an idea ...

Shutternoise alone suffices to alert and scare the mentioned species in the described manner, however when I am working with the current EOS-DSLRs I cannot resort to liveview (which would avoid additional mirrorslap) because at one point the mirror would slap anyway (when I have to lift it) and slap back in an uncontrolled manner sometime later when the camera decides to save on battery. Further, responsiveness in Liveview is terrible (blackouts etc.). All this contributes to the need of employing a mirrorless for wildlife. I can live with a bit of rolling electronic shutter as in the A7s (the faster the readout the better) and I dislike having to deal with the imperfections and the weight of a blimp.

As repetition of my main point: The fact that the EOS M50 was not intended for wildlife-photographers does not justify to make the silent-mode useless by crippling/scramming it into SCN.


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## MayaTlab (Mar 1, 2018)

fussy III said:


> As repetition of my main point: The fact that the EOS M50 was not intended for wildlife-photographers does not justify to make the silent-mode useless by crippling/scramming it into SCN.



The reason the M50's silent mode is tucked away in a scene mode is probably because its scanning speed is so slow, Canon support would receive a lot of complaints from users who would have enabled it in all modes if it had been possible that their pictures of moving objects are distorted. At least that's probably Canon's reasoning. An unintuitive camera that may lead to user error is a drain on customer services resources. 

I'm very curious to know exactly the scanning speed of the M50's sensor, but it's probably lower than most other APSC sensors. 

I also think that the lack of DPAF with 4K and the crop isn't related to the Digic processor, but to the sensor's slow readout speed. From what I understand DPAF needs to do two readings to work, while masked PDAF pixels can be read simultaneously with others, and if the full sensor had been used, rolling shutter would be so bad that the video would be barely usable.


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## fussy III (Mar 1, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> fussy III said:
> 
> 
> > As repetition of my main point: The fact that the EOS M50 was not intended for wildlife-photographers does not justify to make the silent-mode useless by crippling/scramming it into SCN.
> ...



Good points. But isn't it contradictory then to offer silent shooting in the "fools-mode" and not in M-mode?
Every way I look at it, it seems I'll have to add a a6500 to my camera-selection before heading to desert again. Or should I go all the way towards Sony (A7RIII plus A7sIII, one set of batteries, changing my 100-400 L IS II for the Sony-Version and possibly exchanging my 500/4.0 L IS to a Sigma 500/4.0 OS)? Canon keeps pushing me away from my beloved EF-lenses with every other camera-release.


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## MayaTlab (Mar 1, 2018)

fussy III said:


> MayaTlab said:
> 
> 
> > fussy III said:
> ...



Possibly. At least since it's got its own special mode, it makes it explicit that it's something to be used for specific applications only. The other thing is that a lot of features are disabled when using it, such as continuous shooting, so maybe Canon feared some users wouldn't understand why some menu items are greyed. 
Anyway that's just me trying to get into Canon's head. I'm not necessarily defending that move. 

Canon better hurry up in improving their capacity to manufacture sensors with a fast readout cheaply, because we're around two years away from Sony selling A9 level of performances for less than $2000 and right now there is no way Canon can price their upcoming FF mirrorless camera higher than $1500 or so with what they've shown they can produce so far.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 1, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> ...right now there is no way Canon can price their upcoming FF mirrorless camera higher than $1500 or so with what they've shown they can produce so far.



Don't be ridiculous. Canon can —and almost certainly _will_— price their first FF MILC much higher than that. _You_ may not buy one as priced, but Canon doesn't care, even a little bit, about what you do.


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## MayaTlab (Mar 1, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> MayaTlab said:
> 
> 
> > ...right now there is no way Canon can price their upcoming FF mirrorless camera higher than $1500 or so with what they've shown they can produce so far.
> ...



None of Canon's current FF sensors are fast enough to provide something that's on par with Sony's A7III in many areas of performance (live view feed in continuous mode, FF 4K, etc.). The issue here isn't just in terms of IQ, it affects operational qualities. That could very well improve in the future.

BTW in Europe Canon has gotten the memo. The M50 is priced at around $580 at launch. At this price it's unbeatable, in fact it's terrific value for money IMO. Higher than that it runs into problems, as the M5 did since it's been a flop here.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 1, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > MayaTlab said:
> ...



The a7III is $2K. It's nice that you claim it's so much better than a Canon FF sensor can be, but sensor ≠ camera. Lots of people claim that the a7RIII is far superior to the 5DIV, but the 5DIV costs more. And as I pointed out earlier, Canon sells more FF ILCs than Sony.

As for the M5 being a flop in Europe, on Amazon in Italy, the M5 sits at #5 and #8 (with/without kit lens) on the MILC bestseller list. #1/#2 are GoPro knockoffs, and the M100 is #3 (with Fuji and Panasonic MILCs rounding out the top 10). Are you saying that Italy isn't part of Europe? Or that France represents all of Europe? Serious hubris. Given that Sony MILCs don't even crack the Top 10 in Italy, should we say that Sony is a flop in Europe?


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## tron (Mar 1, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> MayaTlab said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


+1 plus the "costs more" amount beween Sony A7RIII and Canon 5DMkIV is merely 101$ in current B&H prices! And "much better" is highly subjective. My 5DIV works perfectly OK with my ... Canon lenses ranging from 14mm to 500mm ;D and produces excellent results in many variable conditions (landscape astrophotography, museum and churches interiors, birding, etc).


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## MayaTlab (Mar 1, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> MayaTlab said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



The Amazon ranking puts the X-pro 2 graphite edition at €2000 in ninth position, and doesn't even list the X-T2 out of 100 posiitons. So please allow me to cast serious doubts about its accuracy. In fact with that alone it looks completely bogus. 

That said I entirely agree that a sensor doesn't make a full camera. But with mirrorless cameras, it makes it more so than with DSLRs. The A7III leaves very little room for Canon to maneuver.


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## Don Haines (Mar 1, 2018)

mistaspeedy said:


> Taking a 1:1 crop from the middle of the lens is terrible for quality... the 'sweet spot' would need to be impossibly sweet to get total clarity.



Have you ever seen a lens where the MTF is better as you move away from the centre?


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## fussy III (Mar 1, 2018)

tron said:


> ... and produces excellent results in many variable conditions (landscape astrophotography, museum and churches interiors, birding, etc).



Indeed in many variable conditions the 5D IV will deliver, with the exemption of those variable conditions in which Sony delivers on top of that.

I agree a fullframe mirrorless by Canon will not come cheap. But will it justify the cost to most of us EF-lens-owners if it will not deliver where the competition already does? Among others fast readout with silent shooting, emulation of minimally ISO 400.000 in an electronic viewfinder's image to facilitate manual focus in very dim lighting situations (the reason for which I bought and still work with the A7s), more usable 4K-AF, usable profiles and a sense of appreciation of their customers and the art of photography in general (let's not even get into taste and design)? 

I will not consider buying a FF-Canon for even less than $1.000 if it does not succesfully address those aforementioned issues, first and foremost silent shooting. If it is up to me they do not need to create FF-lenses specifically for mirrorless. It is my EF-lenses who are screaming for access to modern-mirrorless benefits. I still love optical viewfinders but might see myself forced on giving up on my hope of working with a lens-park that I can use with both optical and electronic viewfinder. And at some point I will stop asking whether Canon is just not willing or simply unable to deliver. I think that describes the situation of many ambitioned and faithful Canon-photographers.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 1, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> The Amazon ranking puts the X-pro 2 graphite edition at €2000 in ninth position, and doesn't even list the X-T2 out of 100 posiitons. So please allow me to cast serious doubts about its accuracy. In fact with that alone it looks completely bogus.
> 
> That said I entirely agree that a sensor doesn't make a full camera. But with mirrorless cameras, it makes it more so than with DSLRs. The A7III leaves very little room for Canon to maneuver.



In that case, would you mind sharing your data showing that the M5 is a 'flop'? I know, you said they don't seem to stock them in shops in France. As I stated, France ≠ Europe.

Canon has plenty of room to maneuver. They are the ILC market leader, currently they have 50% of the entire global market. Therefore, their main source of FF MILC buyers are current Canon (APS-C) owners.


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## rrcphoto (Mar 1, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> the M5 did since it's been a flop here.



I'd love to see the sales statistics please.


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## tron (Mar 1, 2018)

fussy III said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > ... and produces excellent results in many variable conditions (landscape astrophotography, museum and churches interiors, birding, etc).
> ...


I personally do not have any objection to a mirorless FF from Canon especially with an EF mount (I do have many Canon EF L lenses). But I do not care. I do not see a huge advantage against a DSLR. And the optical viewfinder saves the battery so much that you can take maybe even 3+ times of photos per charge. What I wait for is the 7DII and 5DsR replacements and nothing else. As a "mirrorless" I could use a D200 in liveview mode with EF-S18-55/4.5-5.6, EF-S24 2.8 and EF-S10-18/4.5-5.6. Of course YMMV.


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## Talys (Mar 1, 2018)

tron said:


> I personally do not have any objection to a mirorless FF from Canon especially with an EF mount (I do have many Canon EF L lenses). But I do not care. I do not see a huge advantage against a DSLR. And the optical viewfinder saves the battery so much that you can take maybe even 3+ times of photos per charge. What I wait for is the 7DII and 5DsR replacements and nothing else. As a "mirrorless" I could use a D200 in liveview mode with EF-S18-55/4.5-5.6, EF-S24 2.8 and EF-S10-18/4.5-5.6. Of course YMMV.



+10

I was out for a full day last weekend taking photos of birds, looking through the viewfinder a significant portion of that. I took a little over 980 photos -- and I didn't even exhaust a single LPE6 battery. With a DSLR, I _never_ have to take more than 1 spare battery, and I never even bother checking the status of the battery in the camera before I leave.

The other issue is that I haven't yet used an EVF that works well in a studio that only has a bit of lighting (like modelling lights set on low), and where strobes are rapidly firing.


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## fussy III (Mar 1, 2018)

tron said:


> I could use a D200 in liveview mode with EF-S18-55/4.5-5.6, EF-S24 2.8 and EF-S10-18/4.5-5.6.



Very similar situation with my Pentax 6x7 here. It even allows to lock-up the mirror mechanically. A good starting point for the modifications needed in order to convert it into a EF-hybrid-mirrorless I'd say.


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## ritholtz (Mar 1, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> MayaTlab said:
> 
> 
> > The Amazon ranking puts the X-pro 2 graphite edition at €2000 in ninth position, and doesn't even list the X-T2 out of 100 posiitons. So please allow me to cast serious doubts about its accuracy. In fact with that alone it looks completely bogus.
> ...


I doubt there is any data vailable to show M5 sales. There are couple of active posters here and dpr who fallows sales number thoroughly. M5 sales flop numbers are just a feel good story shared between them by same like minded group.


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## NorbR (Mar 2, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> The Amazon ranking puts the X-pro 2 graphite edition at €2000 in ninth position, and doesn't even list the X-T2 out of 100 posiitons. So please allow me to cast serious doubts about its accuracy. In fact with that alone it looks completely bogus.



Using Amazon rankings to compare overall sales is like using DxO scores to compare sensors. It's not completely useless, there's some genuine data underneath it all, but the algorithm used is completely cryptic and there's a whole bunch of factors we don't know about that mess up those rankings, which renders the whole thing fairly pointless imho.

That being said, it is still better than anecdotal evidence like "my buddy at the store still has 10 of them left on the shelves" or "2 of my friends have bought one". Sales data for specific camera models are hard to come by, and most broad statements like "camera X is flying off the shelves" or "camera Y is a flop" are based on no actual data whatsoever.


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## Rocky (Mar 2, 2018)

Who is #1 in sales? Who has more lenses line-up? Who cares. Just buy the gear that you want or just buy the gear that fits your existing need the best. There is always something better next year.


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## Talys (Mar 2, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> mistaspeedy said:
> 
> 
> > Taking a 1:1 crop from the middle of the lens is terrible for quality... the 'sweet spot' would need to be impossibly sweet to get total clarity.
> ...



That would be the worst lens ever made 

When you look at the $5,000 - $25,000 camcorders from Sony or Canon, they are not high megapixels that are scaled down. Most of them have something like a 3840x2160 sensor. I'm pretty sure that if the quality of video were way better if that were higher density and reduced... they'd do that... because obviously, Sony and Canon are capable of building sensors that are more than 8.3 megapixels.


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## vikaskundu (Mar 19, 2018)

I didn't found no option to create separate thread so I am posting my question here itself. The Camera Connect app had been working just fine on my iPhone 7 when on iOS 10 however upon upgrading to iOS 11.3 now whenever I open the app it simply displays a blank screen on startup and crashes itself automatically after few secs. Any idea how to fix it guys?

*Update:* Just wanted to make an update real quick for as I have deleted and reinstalled the latest version of the app it has been working smooth again!


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