# Canon Talks 250mp APS-H Image Sensor at ISSCC



## Canon Rumors Guy (Feb 12, 2016)

```
Canon is once again talking about their 250mp image sensor that <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-develops-aps-h-size-cmos-sensor-with-approximately-250-megapixels/" target="_blank">they showcased at the Canon EXPO</a> back in September. This time, they’ve presented a paper at the ISSCC 2016 Conference (All About Sensors).</p>
<p><a href="http://harvestimaging.com/blog/?p=1536" target="_blank">Harvest Imaging</a> has this to say about what Canon presented:</p>
<blockquote><p>Hirofumi Totsuka of Canon presented a 250 Mpixel APS-H size imager : 1.5 um pixel pitch (4 sharing) made in 0.13 um technology node.   The device is consuming 1.97 W at full resolution 5fps.  An interesting build-in feature of this sensor is the following :  ALL pixel signals are converted by column SS-ADCs with a single ramp, but in front of the ADC, each column has its own PGA that can be switched to 4x or 1x gain, depending on the signal level.  So when the pixels are sampled, a first check is done to look whether the signal is above or below a particular reference level, and then the right gain of the PGA is set to 1x or 4x.  Simple method, but I think that the issues pop up in the reconstruction of the signal at the cross-over point between the two settings of the PGA.</p></blockquote>
<p>This sensor does not mean that the APS-H sensor size is returning. We imagine that whenever the 250mp sensor comes to market, it will be in a full frame application.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


----------



## pj1974 (Feb 12, 2016)

This has me very interested... as it shows Canon is truly doing some serious R&D on their sensor front, and yes - that's innovating ... which I expect will bring all us photographers wins in the end. 

As I have said for many years, the APS-H format is likely not going to be a strong option (either APS-C, or "35mm" - aka 'FF'), each respectively having benefits over the APS-H (which sits in between).

I look forward to seeing the sensor developments that Canon are doing, becoming reality on future cameras.

Additionally... this should also mean continued good competition, which is always a good thing too. 

Paul


----------



## nvsravank (Feb 12, 2016)

Who needs 250MP?
Even billboards don't need that high I would assume? 
Even models will look bad as nobody's skin will look good at the resolution! Not even a new born's 

Landscapes?


----------



## IglooEater (Feb 12, 2016)

That's pretty cool! At that pixel density we'd see what, 400 megapixels in a full frame? That's going to push makeup artists and photoshoppers to a whole new level. That is, if we find an application for that much resolution, and I don't doubt we will.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 12, 2016)

APS-H is dead. Long live APS-H!!

Canon innovating on sensor architecture?!? Who'da thunk?? :


----------



## wsmith96 (Feb 12, 2016)

Perhaps it is for industrial or security use?


----------



## M_S (Feb 12, 2016)

So far I haven't read anything spectacular besides the huge amount of pixels in there and that it is possible to read the data with 5fps. Nothing about quality in general, noise handling, iso performance, colour accuracy etc.
Although it is spectacular to be able to produce a 250 Megapixel sensor, I am more interested in the other stuff, as I don't see a task for me to be able to a) handle that data, b) shoot in a way that this will be a sharp picture in the end.


----------



## RobPan (Feb 12, 2016)

Hm, if there would be a FF sensor with 250 MP, wchich lenses would they want to use? Sony GM? Older lenses all have insufficient resolution for that many mexapixels.

If they are serious about such a high MP sensor, that presumably means they are working on a Sony GM equivalent or better.

Kind regards,
Rob.


----------



## dflt (Feb 12, 2016)

pj1974 said:


> This has me very interested... as it shows Canon is truly doing some serious R&D on their sensor front, and yes - that's innovating ... which I expect will bring all us photographers wins in the end.
> 
> As I have said for many years, the APS-H format is likely not going to be a strong option (either APS-C, or "35mm" - aka 'FF'), each respectively having benefits over the APS-H (which sits in between).
> 
> ...



Canon is progressing sideways. Where is the dynamic range?


----------



## CincyFlyer (Feb 12, 2016)

dflt said:


> Canon is progressing sideways. Where is the dynamic range?



Note the 1x or 4x internal amplification, PER PIXEL. That could, if properly implemented, reach two stops into the shadows.


----------



## fentiger (Feb 12, 2016)

And the file size this sensor will produce ????? as for camera shake your going to need something better than a tripod.
best thing i see this for is a 30 meter telescope


----------



## kaihp (Feb 12, 2016)

CincyFlyer said:


> dflt said:
> 
> 
> > Canon is progressing sideways. Where is the dynamic range?
> ...



Technically, that's a per-column amp, but it is switched between 1x and 4x amplification on a per-pixel basis.

I presume that "PGA" means Pixel Gain Amplifier, but googling didn't provide anything conclusive. It's definitely not "pin grid array" as I'm used to.

SS-ADC means Single Slope-A/D Conversion. It is 'slow', requiring 2N steps for converting an N-bit number.


----------



## StatisticsRule (Feb 12, 2016)

fentiger said:


> And the file size this sensor will produce ????? as for camera shake your going to need something better than a tripod.
> best thing i see this for is a 30 meter telescope



Nah. You can already get an 8.4 meter telescope with a 3,200 Mpixel camera that will take 15Tb of data every night (http://www.lsst.org/). To stay competitive, your 30 meter telescope should have at least 40,000 Mpixels!  ;D


----------



## rs (Feb 12, 2016)

RobPan said:


> Hm, if there would be a FF sensor with 250 MP, wchich lenses would they want to use? Sony GM? Older lenses all have insufficient resolution for that many mexapixels.



Yes, that's right. Sony GM lenses are the only lenses capable of resolving fine detail. Canon have poor performers such as the 100-400 II and 300/2.8 II which are sorely in need of replacement.


----------



## hne (Feb 12, 2016)

RobPan said:


> Hm, if there would be a FF sensor with 250 MP, wchich lenses would they want to use? Sony GM? Older lenses all have insufficient resolution for that many mexapixels.
> 
> If they are serious about such a high MP sensor, that presumably means they are working on a Sony GM equivalent or better.
> 
> ...



I'd guess they'd want to use the L II versions of the 35/1.4, 24-70/2.8, 70-200/2.8 and 100-400/4.5-5.6. Canon have said that lenses designed after (date forgotten) have been designed with high megapixel sensors in mind. I doubt that would stop with the resolution of the 5DSr. 250Mpx in 3:2 aspect could be something along the line of 19360*12900 pixels, or about 2.2 times the linear resolution of the 5DSr.

Now, if the 250Mpx APS-H sensor becomes a 1.3x linearly larger full 24x36 frame, we'd be looking at over 400Mpx... That might be a chore for our lenses!


----------



## bdunbar79 (Feb 12, 2016)

They're not using the APS-H sensor in the final products. I've done lots and lots of R&D. You use platforms and materials that AREN'T being used because then it costs less money to do the R&D. Try it on an old sensor architecture and then develop the concept, implement to existing products, etc.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Feb 12, 2016)

nvsravank said:


> Who needs 250MP?
> Even billboards don't need that high I would assume?
> Even models will look bad as nobody's skin will look good at the resolution! Not even a new born's



The pixel pitch isn't significantly higher than most current smartphone; skin doesn't look horrible even with significant magnification (eg 5.4x4 mm^2 up to 10x8 in^2)


----------



## Berowne (Feb 12, 2016)

StatisticsRule said:


> fentiger said:
> 
> 
> > And the file size this sensor will produce ????? as for camera shake your going to need something better than a tripod.
> ...



As long as the sensor cannot detect gravitational waves it is not groundbreaking.


----------



## Don Haines (Feb 12, 2016)

bdunbar79 said:


> They're not using the APS-H sensor in the final products. I've done lots and lots of R&D. You use platforms and materials that AREN'T being used because then it costs less money to do the R&D. Try it on an old sensor architecture and then develop the concept, implement to existing products, etc.


Exactly!

Hey, we have this pile of stuff we don't need any more.... OK R+D people, it's yours to do what you want with it......


----------



## bdunbar79 (Feb 12, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > They're not using the APS-H sensor in the final products. I've done lots and lots of R&D. You use platforms and materials that AREN'T being used because then it costs less money to do the R&D. Try it on an old sensor architecture and then develop the concept, implement to existing products, etc.
> ...



Hey, nobody said I was happy about it. 8)


----------



## bdunbar79 (Feb 12, 2016)

dilbert said:


> As all of the R&D sensor announcements are for this size of sensor, it would seems to be that the 1.3x (APS-H) fab has been given to the R&D guys.



Oops, sorry, missed your post. Yes this is the case.


----------



## JBSF (Feb 12, 2016)

rs said:


> RobPan said:
> 
> 
> > Hm, if there would be a FF sensor with 250 MP, wchich lenses would they want to use? Sony GM? Older lenses all have insufficient resolution for that many mexapixels.
> ...



+1

We all know from the extensive testing of the Sony GM lenses that they are superior. And yes, as soon as those lenses are introduced I will be looking for a used and unloved 300 f2.8.


----------



## extide (Feb 12, 2016)

kaihp said:


> Technically, that's a per-column amp, but it is switched between 1x and 4x amplification on a per-pixel basis.
> 
> I presume that "PGA" means Pixel Gain Amplifier, but googling didn't provide anything conclusive. It's definitely not "pin grid array" as I'm used to.
> 
> SS-ADC means Single Slope-A/D Conversion. It is 'slow', requiring 2N steps for converting an N-bit number.



PGA stands for Programmable Gain Amplifier. It's a standard component used in electronics, in fact many standalone ADC's have them built in.


----------



## cazza132 (Feb 12, 2016)

There are a few points that people aren't taking into account here:
- Canon are using 130nm fab tech - awesome. They were using 500nm tech in most current models.
- The more pixels you can throw at an image, given the same quantum efficiency of the silicon base photon collecting surface (esp with gapless colour filter array and pixel architecture), the better dynamic range - esp at lower ISOs because of much greater sampling across the image. It would blast that DXO garbage out of the window.
- No one will ever whine about sensor resolution again - the sensor will out-resolve any lens you can through at it! And that is a good thing! If you have a problem with file size, just downsize to a smaller 16bit raw (*.cr2 can probably already do it). From what I have heard, the ADC can already do it and Canon are doing ADC on sensor for future upcoming products. But, SRAW and MRAW need to be fixed.
All good and moving forward!


----------



## cazza132 (Feb 12, 2016)

Also, I do hope that Canon move to BSI architecture to reap maximum benefit!


----------



## 9VIII (Feb 12, 2016)

RobPan said:


> Hm, if there would be a FF sensor with 250 MP, wchich lenses would they want to use? Sony GM? Older lenses all have insufficient resolution for that many mexapixels.
> 
> If they are serious about such a high MP sensor, that presumably means they are working on a Sony GM equivalent or better.
> 
> ...



Sony's lenses aren't out yet and for all we know they could be garbage.

If you want lenses that almost reach 50lp/mm then a good copy of the Sigma Art lenses already do that, as do some of Canon's recent lenses. Sony didn't actually say that they were going to achieve that kind of resolution, their statements in that regard were incredibly vague. I won't believe they have anything more than some weird Bokeh until we see reviews.


----------



## cazza132 (Feb 12, 2016)

I am very happy with my Canon mount lenses, so I am excited about Canon's sensor development. Remember folks that Canon brought phase detect focus to sensor level with their DPFA or what ever the acronym is - split pixel tech on the 70D. Really looking forward to seeing some RAWs from the upcoming 1Dx II with the assumed on chip ADC. We are moving along quite nicely here on the light side


----------



## gunship01 (Feb 12, 2016)

Medium Format?

Or Canon will release a 25MP 1DX Mark III in 3.5 years, a 30MP 1DX Mark IV 4 years after that, a 34 MP 1DX Mark V 3.4 years after that, a 41MP 1DX Mark IV......

A good business plan that will see the light of day in 2064. I hope the camera will be light as I will be 100 years old. The newspaper will run a picture of me with my new 10DX Mark VII and I, beaming with pride (and after putting my teeth in) will remark "I remember when all I had was my 18MP 7D and I liked it!"


----------



## cazza132 (Feb 12, 2016)

9VIII said:


> RobPan said:
> 
> 
> > Hm, if there would be a FF sensor with 250 MP, wchich lenses would they want to use? Sony GM? Older lenses all have insufficient resolution for that many mexapixels.
> ...


----------



## rrcphoto (Feb 12, 2016)

dilbert said:


> As all of the R&D sensor announcements are for this size of sensor, it would seems to be that the 1.3x (APS-H) fab has been given to the R&D guys.



no clearly you're not thinking. it's the largest sensor you can make on a traditional stepper lithography machine. which the reason canon always used it for R&D prototypes, it's the largest single pass exposure sensor they could make. (which is why the format came out in the first place).


----------



## cazza132 (Feb 12, 2016)

gunship01 said:


> Medium Format?
> 
> Or Canon will release a 25MP 1DX Mark III in 3.5 years, a 30MP 1DX Mark IV 4 years after that, a 34 MP 1DX Mark V 3.4 years after that, a 41MP 1DX Mark IV......
> 
> A good business plan that will see the light of day in 2064. I hope the camera will be light as I will be 100 years old. The newspaper will run a picture of me with my new 10DX Mark VII and I, beaming with pride (and after putting my teeth in) will remark "I remember when all I had was my 18MP 7D and I liked it!"



Yes, Medium Format will be one thing that will solve the 'airy circle' diffraction limitation - just need larger lenses for the job.


----------



## cazza132 (Feb 12, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > As all of the R&D sensor announcements are for this size of sensor, it would seems to be that the 1.3x (APS-H) fab has been given to the R&D guys.
> ...



And that 'stepper lithography machine' uses 130nm tech? I thought it was all running on 500nm tech.


----------



## cazza132 (Feb 12, 2016)

9VIII said:


> RobPan said:
> 
> 
> > Hm, if there would be a FF sensor with 250 MP, wchich lenses would they want to use? Sony GM? Older lenses all have insufficient resolution for that many mexapixels.
> ...



Doesn't matter - all lenses still have a diffraction limit and these new sensors will out-resolve them all! A good thing! It will be about sub-sampling pixilation - boosts DR by default at low ISOs.


----------



## cazza132 (Feb 12, 2016)

This is where I envisage the future:
- A/D conversion will be clean
- Every photon of light will count (a large proportion is absorbed by the colour filters in the Bayer filter array), hence layered sensors will be developed. Different colour absorption at different depths in silicon. It will suck for infrared photography though :/ The current Bayer filter array is what makes good IR shots - unless they sample the very shallow UV and very deep IR layers (I have seen a Canon patent for that) with a five channel readout.
- BSI sensors with a much higher sampling rate than any lens can resolve - ie huge megapixels. If you want to down sample for the purpose of your computer or hard drive space, well make good MRAW and SRAW. What about a 14 bit or 16 bit option? Also, the current problems with down sampling raws will be instantly void with layered sensors.
- Higher QE (black silicon, say - may give and extra 25-45%) - but relates to my second point. Black silicon would affect the colour differentiation of layered sensors :/

Then everyone will be talking lens quality, not sensor quality.


----------



## kaihp (Feb 12, 2016)

extide said:


> PGA stands for Programmable Gain Amplifier. It's a standard component used in electronics, in fact many standalone ADC's have them built in.


Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for helping me out. Never heard about it as a "PGA", but then I'm from the "highly non-linear and saturated analog" (aka digital) design side.


----------



## cazza132 (Feb 12, 2016)

JS5 said:


> Canon...
> Once again I ask you to please get your head out of your ass and do the right thing...
> Nobody needs 250 trillion million pixels... billboards were done with merely 4 megapixels back in the three pass digital backs... So please...
> Stop your pissing fight with whoever it is you feel you need to fight this megapixel race, and make a real camera already !
> ...



Dude, I think the upcoming 1Dx II might just be the cam for you! Looking forward to seeing some raws from this beast. If they have weaved some magic with their new on chip A/D converters, we will be singing!


----------



## George D. (Feb 12, 2016)

_"When installed in a camera, the newly developed sensor was able to capture images enabling the distinguishing of lettering on the side of an airplane flying at a distance of approximately 18 km from the shooting location".
_
It's a different animal. Now let's go back to 5D Mk.IV rumors.


----------



## Adelino (Feb 12, 2016)

JS5 said:


> Canon...
> Once again I ask you to please get your head out of your ass and do the right thing...
> Nobody needs 250 trillion million pixels... billboards were done with merely 4 megapixels back in the three pass digital backs... So please...
> Stop your pissing fight with whoever it is you feel you need to fight this megapixel race, and make a real camera already !
> ...



So buy a 1DX Mark II and be done with tit then.


----------



## Pebbles (Feb 12, 2016)

So they can manage a 250MP Sensor but they can't manage to produce a Pro DSLR without crippled dynamic range. Genius.


----------



## ritholtz (Feb 12, 2016)

Pebbles said:


> So they can manage a 250MP Sensor but they can't manage to produce a Pro DSLR without crippled dynamic range. Genius.


Why can't you just wait for 1DX2 reviews before wasting another log in.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 12, 2016)

This is obviously needed for those who want 16K Video.


----------



## Pebbles (Feb 12, 2016)

@rithotz You mean like this one from a Canon Ambassador? http://rudgr.com/tag/canon-1dx2/



> the camera has seen no improvement in dynamic range


----------



## et31 (Feb 12, 2016)

Let me guess...native ISO range: 100-400 (H1:800, H2:1,000) ;D
Marketing propaganda will say that it can shoot in low light environments. :


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 12, 2016)

Pebbles said:


> So they can manage a 250MP Sensor but they can't manage to produce a Pro DSLR without crippled dynamic range. Genius.



So can you post us half a dozen of your personal images where you were crippled by the lack of dr in a Canon camera?


----------



## 9VIII (Feb 12, 2016)

et31 said:


> Let me guess...native ISO range: 100-400 (H1:800, H2:1,000) ;D
> Marketing propaganda will say that it can shoot in low light environments. :



Downsampling the 5Ds still gets good low light results, a 250MP sensor would be no different.

Basically your low light capabilities are still dependent on your output resolution, no matter what the native resolution.
Except the A7S can't give you high detail in good light, but no-one cares about image quality in good light anyway.


----------



## Pebbles (Feb 12, 2016)

@privatebydesign I often have to bracket and blend in post because I need an extra couple of stops. And yes I shoot as base ISO and pull back as much as I can from the RAW. Can you honestly pretend it isn't an issue? It's just like all the Apple fanboys claiming they didn't want or need a bigger iPhone until one was available and then all buying one. You have your head in the sand my friend.


----------



## dak723 (Feb 12, 2016)

Pebbles said:


> @privatebydesign I often have to bracket and blend in post because I need an extra couple of stops. And yes I shoot as base ISO and pull back as much as I can from the RAW. Can you honestly pretend it isn't an issue? It's just like all the Apple fanboys claiming they didn't want or need a bigger iPhone until one was available and then all buying one. You have your head in the sand my friend.



There is no doubt some folks feel the need for more DR. But in 12 years of shooting with Canon, I have always been able to lighten the shadows significantly and successfully in post. Having bought a Sony A7II to compare with the 6D, there was no noticeable difference in "actual" DR when shooting under normal conditions. Those of us that find the Canons perfectly acceptable do not have our heads in the sand, we are just not pixel peeping, over-post processing techno geeks.


----------



## Pebbles (Feb 12, 2016)

@dak723 I am constantly stuck with the choice of clipping highlights or losing an unacceptable amount of detail in the shadows. That is just pragmatism. I am not pixel peeping or over post-processing. It's exactly to avoid spending more time in post that I need more dynamic range. Anyway this isn't what this thread should be about and I shouldn't have let my frustration with Canon's slow spiral turn into a snarky comment.


----------



## Diltiazem (Feb 12, 2016)

The picture used in this report is not that of 250 MP sensor. It would have been nicer if CR used the right picture. It is available online. 

 http://www.canon.com/news/2015/sep07e.html


----------



## Sporgon (Feb 12, 2016)

dak723 said:


> Having bought a Sony A7II to compare with the 6D, there was no noticeable difference in "actual" DR when shooting under normal conditions.



Heresy ! Don't ever say such things on the Internet ! Also try to remember those who are less skilled than yourself: if you had under exposed your images by four or five stops and then tried to lift the resulting mess the Sony would probably have been a little better.


----------



## Diltiazem (Feb 12, 2016)

Pebbles said:


> @rithotz You mean like this one from a Canon Ambassador? http://rudgr.com/tag/canon-1dx2/
> 
> 
> 
> > the camera has seen no improvement in dynamic range



Don't be so disheartened. 

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57265121


----------



## x-vision (Feb 12, 2016)

Diltiazem said:


> Don't be so disheartened.
> http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57265121



Heh. Finally clean shadows from a Canon sensor!


----------



## gregory4000 (Feb 12, 2016)

dak723 said:


> Pebbles said:
> 
> 
> > @privatebydesign I often have to bracket and blend in post because I need an extra couple of stops. And yes I shoot as base ISO and pull back as much as I can from the RAW. Can you honestly pretend it isn't an issue? It's just like all the Apple fanboys claiming they didn't want or need a bigger iPhone until one was available and then all buying one. You have your head in the sand my friend.
> ...



For many photographers on this site, the DR on Canon sensors are fine. But hell, most individuals use a cell phone for their photos. The only reason any of us shoot with DSLR's is because we want more?
I love Canon, But I don't shoot only with Canon.
Why? Because in some areas their sensor has weakness. The Canon 1Dxii will smoke competitors for speed and focusing, its a great camera body. But for landscape, architectural and fashion, the sensor is of Great importance, Period!
DR of two stops is necessary for Canon. Good DR is needed every time you shoot outdoors on a sunny day, Or when you want to travel light and elect not to carry a flash. To handle hight contrast areas and so on....so on...
Color depth is needed for skin tones, color accuracy, handling highlights.
I feel that many on this site betray those of us who want Canon to be the best.
So long as there are members out there that feel the sensor is just fine the way it is, How do you expect to see improvement. 
A 250 mp sensor has a great WOW factor. I like it! But please give us more DR and color depth at low ISO's.

Please remember the auto industry. US auto makers gave us crap in the 80's, and it wasn't till consumers went to foriegn manufactures that US auto makers step up their game. 
In other words the saying is true. "The squeaky wheel get fixed first"


----------



## 3kramd5 (Feb 12, 2016)

gregory4000 said:


> Good DR is needed every time you shoot outdoors on a sunny day...



Can you please define "good DR?"

Personally although the one on the left has a wider DR than the one on the right, I consider both of my main digital cameras to have good DR. Do you not?


----------



## rrcphoto (Feb 12, 2016)

cazza132 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...


steppers can be any "tech" canon has lithography steppers down to 65nm design rules I believe.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 12, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> gregory4000 said:
> 
> 
> > Good DR is needed every time you shoot outdoors on a sunny day...
> ...



More than Canon offers, duh! :

In fact, he was more specific - two more stops of (low ISO) DR than Canon offers. That is just exactly enough. 14 stops is sufficient for every outdoor shot on a sunny day. 12 stops is completely inadequate for any such shot. 

: : :


----------



## Diltiazem (Feb 13, 2016)

isac2isa said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > Canon is once again talking about their 250mp image sensor that <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-develops-aps-h-size-cmos-sensor-with-approximately-250-megapixels/" target="_blank">they showcased at the Canon EXPO</a> back in September. This time, they’ve presented a paper at the ISSCC 2016 Conference (All About Sensors).</p>
> ...



In 2003 the group did not show sensor, they just showed an idea. In 2015 Canon made a 250 MP sensor with dual gain amplifier. They showed pictures taken with it. There is a difference, don't you think? Btw, the group now works for Canon. So, what is your point?


----------



## rrcphoto (Feb 13, 2016)

isac2isa said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > cazza132 said:
> ...



Canon's KrF stepper / scanners go down to 90nm and I do believe that some work down to 65nm design rules.

well far enough under 130nm to stay in house.

not to mention that Canon themselves has lithography equipment capable now of going down to 2nm.

Canon has separate R&D offices for lithography, sensor, semiconductor, optics, and some which seem to be a mix.

Also one sensor line was for P&S cameras which that hasn't been used for the longest of times. effectively that line has been dormant for .. well almost 4-5 years+ at least doing P&S sensors.

and there's no "must" .. 

canon can easily upgrade a sensor lines in one of their two factories. they had to do it in the past and they did that quietly.

Given the slow down of releases the last little while, one would wonder if they haven't been retrofitting lines to do just that.

btw, Mikael Risedal, it's nice to see you create another account to escape your ban from here, for doing this the last time you were here.


----------



## rrcphoto (Feb 13, 2016)

Diltiazem said:


> isac2isa said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



not to mention a dual gain PGA is a secondary element to all of this anyways.

outputting 1.25Gpixel / second is some pretty good bandwidth. I would imagine canon needs to work on R&D for stuff like that in short order for all the 8K stuff they are doing over the next 2-3 years.

as full sensor readout for 8K will be around 1Gpixel / second.


----------



## Diltiazem (Feb 13, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> isac2isa said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



Did you have to expose him? 8)


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 13, 2016)

*Re: Canon Talks 250mp APS-H Image Sensor at ISSC*



Pebbles said:


> @privatebydesign I often have to bracket and blend in post because I need an extra couple of stops. And yes I shoot as base ISO and pull back as much as I can from the RAW. Can you honestly pretend it isn't an issue? It's just like all the Apple fanboys claiming they didn't want or need a bigger iPhone until one was available and then all buying one. You have your head in the sand my friend.



I don't have my head in the sand, I just don't buy in to all the hyperbole. I shot for years with Fuji Velvia with 6 stops of usable DR, and I don't remember anybody complaining about the DR of the negative emulsions which according to the manufacturers was 12.3, which is very close to where we are now with Canon sensors. Will I embrace it when we get more DR? Sure, but am I constantly running into insurmountable problems because I don't have one or two stops more now? No.

I will not jump on to this years bandwagon of 'needing' more DR, I know that when we get it another random metric will be trumped as the be all and end all of specs, color reproduction or bit depth or something else. If you can't take fantastic images with the current gear from any manufacturer it isn't the sensor that is the issue and I refuse to say it is.


----------



## rrcphoto (Feb 13, 2016)

*Re: Canon Talks 250mp APS-H Image Sensor at ISSC*



privatebydesign said:


> Pebbles said:
> 
> 
> > @privatebydesign I often have to bracket and blend in post because I need an extra couple of stops. And yes I shoot as base ISO and pull back as much as I can from the RAW. Can you honestly pretend it isn't an issue? It's just like all the Apple fanboys claiming they didn't want or need a bigger iPhone until one was available and then all buying one. You have your head in the sand my friend.
> ...



also ISO invariance and pulling up shadows is really just a "if all else fails" method anyways.

if you bracket, you can usually adjust shutter speed and ISO (if you have auto-ISO enabled) - in other words you aren't force to boost your ISO by (number) of EV in ISO only.

hence by blending / bracketing you can end up with a greater micro-contrast and color.


----------



## emko (Feb 13, 2016)

*Re: Canon Talks 250mp APS-H Image Sensor at ISSC*



rrcphoto said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Pebbles said:
> ...



that's what i do all the time with any shot i think will need it, but sometimes a A7R can get a acceptable shadow noise when pushed a bit with a single shot while on my 5D3 it would have unacceptable noise for me.

So from what the examples of DR in the 1DX2 show it looks like a big improvement hopefully the 5d4 gets this as well.


----------



## rrcphoto (Feb 13, 2016)

*Re: Canon Talks 250mp APS-H Image Sensor at ISSC*



emko said:


> the 5d4 gets this as well.



I think we can all agree with that, as with any future "prosumer" camera body. not sure the rebels need it, but 70D, 7D, 6D, 5D series all certainly should get it.


----------



## rrcphoto (Feb 13, 2016)

isac2isa said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > Canon is once again talking about their 250mp image sensor that <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-develops-aps-h-size-cmos-sensor-with-approximately-250-megapixels/" target="_blank">they showcased at the Canon EXPO</a> back in September. This time, they’ve presented a paper at the ISSCC 2016 Conference (All About Sensors).</p>
> ...



btw, was this you too?

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com.co/2016/02/2016-isscc-review-part-2.html?showComment=1454782444409#c4336732922746476312


_"Very good job from technical committee . Dual gain amplifier first shown by Kawahito's group at ISSCC 2003. 13 years ago!! Now shows up again as main "novelty" from the work of Canon.
Submission rules of ISSCC say novelty is needed, not only nice results. N.O.V.E.L.T.Y.!"_


----------



## Diltiazem (Feb 13, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> isac2isa said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



Yep, it is MR. That is exactly what he said in DPR including "N.O.V.E.L.T.Y." 
I used to think DPR was the only place where MR loved to spread his Canon hate. I was wrong it seems. 
Obsessive Compulsive Canon Hatred.


----------



## ritholtz (Feb 13, 2016)

*Re: Canon Talks 250mp APS-H Image Sensor at ISSC*



rrcphoto said:


> emko said:
> 
> 
> > the 5d4 gets this as well.
> ...


I would say, Rebels are the ones needed this extra DR. I struggle a lot when my kid is standing in a shade during bright sunny day. I just randomly shoot with different EC. Small bright light in frame which I never notice, screws up whole exposure for me.

Thanks


----------



## ritholtz (Feb 13, 2016)

thetechhimself said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



Those DXO numbers are theoretical numbers. According to them D7200 has better DR than even D750. That is not true in real life. D750 has amazing DR. Actual measured DR values published (some one posts it in DPR) are much less. I don't think so it exceeds 12 even for D750. Canon's are around 10 I think.


----------



## canonic (Feb 13, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > gregory4000 said:
> ...



Can you spare some 2 or 3 stops? You are doing fine with 10, too 8)
For "complainers", Canon should build some brakes to cut the DR direct in the camera to maximal 12 stops. For hardcores to 10 stops. Some are unable to cope with so many stops!


----------



## kaihp (Feb 13, 2016)

thetechhimself said:


> I'm more happy to see Canon pursuing 0.13 um fabrication technique, although necessary for a Godzilla megapixel beast, it also means we may be seeing some trickle down from the unused fringes of the die, or at least that's how my buddy describes it... IE FF occupies the center of the die, APS-C next, and things like Powershot sensors on the edges, all of which will be, 0.13 um.



Sorry, that's not how semiconductor manufacturing likes to work. You step the same die all over, and dice it (diamond saw) in the vertical and horizontal direction. So what you get/want is dies with exactly the same size.

Sure, you can mix dies on the same wafer, but that's mainly used for prototypes when you want to cut down on the mask cost (MPWs = Multi-Project Wafers).

I've seen MPW mask sets used for initial production just once in my career: Our device took up ~50% of the wafer area and it was purely an economic calculation on when we needed to swap to a (normal) dedicated mask set.



rrcphoto said:


> isac2isa said:
> 
> 
> > no , a smaller design role than 180 nm and Canon must go out side their own sensor lines, it also applies to their 130 nm 250mp sensor
> ...



The lithographic alignment step (you need to align to well under 1/4th the minimum feature size) is by far THE most critical step in semiconductor manufacturing - because you're doing once for each mask step and there can easily be 30+ masks in a modern IC fabrication process, and that just one (missed) misalignment will waste the entire wafer.

For those reasons, you keep your stepper in the most well-controlled part of the fab in terms of dust and vibrations. Sending wafers out of your fab to get the stepped somewhere else is sheer lunacy, especially for manufacturing where the stepper is running 24x7 (stepping is a fairly time consuming process, especially if you really need to 'step' each device individually).

I could imagine that for very specific research projects, you could send your wafer to another location for doing the stepping, but anything about 40-45nm would be so common that it wouldn't make sense.

TL;DR: the stepper is in the same fab as everything else.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 13, 2016)

*Re: Canon Talks 250mp APS-H Image Sensor at ISSC*



privatebydesign said:


> I don't have my head in the sand, I just don't buy in to all the hyperbole. I shot for years with Fuji Velvia with 6 stops of usable DR, and I don't remember anybody complaining about the DR



I do. Forest photographers complained about it all the time and lots of shots they simply couldn't take or had to use negatives and even then plenty could not be done especially those trying to not use really large format cameras and trying with 35mm SLR.



> I will not jump on to this years bandwagon of 'needing' more DR,



THIS years???



> If you can't take fantastic images with the current gear from any manufacturer it isn't the sensor that is the issue and I refuse to say it is.



The only people who ever say nonsense like that are the people who poo-poo DR or are rampant fanboys and make up this nonsense to put in the mouth's of others. I don't recall any of those you supposedly speak against every saying that you can't take fantastic images with whatever is out there from anyone. The difference is how many different types of shots you can pull off well, but nobody ever said that are not billions of shots where this makes no real difference.


----------



## et31 (Feb 13, 2016)

It's ok folks. Sony has already "oo"ed and "aw"ed us. Eventually Canon and Nikon will catch up with DR levels.
....maybe in 10 years we will see a new common standard with DSLRs. Until then, professional cinematography will have the last laugh.

DoP to the director: "At 163,000 ISO, I only have a little less than 14 stops of dynamic range! This will really affect the shot during the scene" :-[ :  How sad! 






Source: http://www.eoshd.com/2014/11/new-sony-sensor-21-stops-dynamic-range-5120-native-iso-destined-high-speed-cinema-camera-smartphone/


----------



## rrcphoto (Feb 13, 2016)

et31 said:


> It's ok folks. Sony has already "oo"ed and "aw"ed us.


with vaporware?


----------



## et31 (Feb 13, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> et31 said:
> 
> 
> > It's ok folks. Sony has already "oo"ed and "aw"ed us.
> ...


It's quite real...


----------



## davidmurray (Feb 13, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> This is obviously needed for those who want 16K Video.



But, of course, by then the complainers will be bitching about how bad Canon is due to there being no 64K/480Hz video on their entry level cameras.

There will always be the bitching folk, and meanwhile the rest of us just get on with taking great photos using good Canon cameras and lenses.


----------



## et31 (Feb 13, 2016)

davidmurray said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > This is obviously needed for those who want 16K Video.
> ...


----------



## ritholtz (Feb 15, 2016)

et31 said:


> davidmurray said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...


Why don't 3rd guy from left in front, close his mouth.


----------



## jrista (Feb 15, 2016)

Really great to hear Canon is manufacturing larger form factor sensors on a 130nm process. The dual gain amp is a nice improvement as well, that should really improve high ISO noise levels and DR. Really wondering if/when these technological improvements will find their way into consumer DSLRs. 

The thing that most caught my eye in the linked article was actually this:



> Kei Shiraishi of Toshiba presented a stacked sensor with 1.2 e- of noise with a comparator-based multiple sampling PGA. The most important characteristic is the multiple sampling in the analog domain. This goes much faster than the multiple sampling in the digital domain. After 32 samples of each signal, a noise level of 1.2 e- could be reached for 1 M pixels at 20 fps. The device is realized in 65 nm, both for the sensor as well as for the circuit on the second silicon level. It was mentioned in the paper, but I guess that the noise floor without the multiple sampling should be around 5 e- at 30 fps, going down to the 1.2 e- reported at 20 fps.



This is pretty cool, amplifier 32x multisampling of each pixel. That would indeed improve noise levels of the signal coming off each pixel. Seems it is for very small sensors, and you probably couldn't get 20fps with larger pixels, but the noise reduction capability of multisampling pixels should still apply.


----------



## kaihp (Feb 15, 2016)

jrista said:


> Really great to hear Canon is manufacturing larger form factor sensors on a 130nm process. The dual gain amp is a nice improvement as well, that should really improve high ISO noise levels and DR. Really wondering if/when these technological improvements will find their way into consumer DSLRs.
> 
> The thing that most caught my eye in the linked article was actually this:
> 
> ...



I'm a bit puzzled about what they actually mean by "multisampling". My guess is that they have 32 comparators in parallel, which would be a 5-bit flash-ADC, but it's simply too vague to be sure. If it's really just that, then why don't they say it?

Multisampling and programmable gain doesn't come for free though: you need to match the transistors in not just one but multiple comparators/amplifiers, to avoid systematic errors (fixed pattern noise comes to mind).
I'm not saying it is a bad idea; just saying TANSTAAFL (as always).


----------



## jrista (Feb 16, 2016)

kaihp said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Really great to hear Canon is manufacturing larger form factor sensors on a 130nm process. The dual gain amp is a nice improvement as well, that should really improve high ISO noise levels and DR. Really wondering if/when these technological improvements will find their way into consumer DSLRs.
> ...



Well, I've only really gotten deeper into this level of the electronics of sensors more recently, so my knowledge isn't particularly extensive, but I read it as the pixel value was run through the comparator 32 times, accumulate the results, and average it for the final lower-noise pixel value. The amp is going to introduce some noise, however every time you sample the pixel and amplify it with the comparator, the noise will be different since it's random. Accumulating and averaging all 32 samples, and you'll reduce noise for that pixel by a factor of ~5.7 (SQRT(32)). Maybe I am reading too much into it?

Even at 65nm, I don't think there is quite enough room on the sensor die for 32 comparators per pixel. Maybe there is only one PGA per column or something like that, in which case that might allow for 5-bit flash ADC, but I agree...if that is what they did, why not just say it? They also explicitly stated the multisampling occurred in analog space, which indicates it;s only amplification, not ADC. Or maybe they stuck the PGA's in the other layer? Now that would be just as interesting...


----------



## kaihp (Feb 16, 2016)

jrista said:


> kaihp said:
> 
> 
> > I'm a bit puzzled about what they actually mean by "multisampling". My guess is that they have 32 comparators in parallel, which would be a 5-bit flash-ADC, but it's simply too vague to be sure. If it's really just that, then why don't they say it?
> ...



If you only have one comparator, you need to have some sort of "programmable voltage generator" (aka DAC), where you then iteratively refine the reference voltage you're comparing the input voltage with (so the final reference voltage becomes your input value).

Clearly, they could choose to do this multiple times (ie oversampling), to reduce the sampling noise. The downside is of course is that it takes time, but since Toshiba paper only does it for 1Mpixels @ 20fps, this is doable. Hmmm. I reread the blog, and they say they go from 30fps without the multi-sampling to 20fps with multi-sampling (and from 5 e- to 1.2 e-). Interesting.

Correct, the PGA is a per-column amp. That's the only thing that makes sense. From the harvestimaging entry:


> ... each column has its own PGA ...


----------



## jrista (Feb 16, 2016)

kaihp said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > kaihp said:
> ...



It's the Canon 250mp APS-H that has a PGA per column. The Toshiba sensor did not clarify where the PGA's were, and it's the Toshiba sensor design I was talking about. 

The Toshiba sensor is a stacked design, and these days they can connect each shared pixel block to it's own logic in the DSP layer. I wonder if they have all the pixel sampling and other readout logic in the DSP in this case.


----------



## kaihp (Feb 16, 2016)

jrista said:


> It's the Canon 250mp APS-H that has a PGA per column. The Toshiba sensor did not clarify where the PGA's were, and it's the Toshiba sensor design I was talking about.
> 
> The Toshiba sensor is a stacked design, and these days they can connect each shared pixel block to it's own logic in the DSP layer. I wonder if they have all the pixel sampling and other readout logic in the DSP in this case.



Erh, right. My bad. But I will seriously doubt that they have anything but a PGA per ADC.


----------



## jrista (Feb 17, 2016)

kaihp said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > It's the Canon 250mp APS-H that has a PGA per column. The Toshiba sensor did not clarify where the PGA's were, and it's the Toshiba sensor design I was talking about.
> ...



So then it's probably a 32-comparator PGA, one per column, situated before the ADC so it operates on the analog signal?


----------



## kaihp (Feb 17, 2016)

jrista said:


> kaihp said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...


Yes, the PGA works on the analog signal. A digital "gain amp" would be a multiplier (or shifter) 
I need to see the actual paper to understand how the multisampling is done. The blog post simply don't provide enough details to say one way or the other.


----------



## jrista (Feb 18, 2016)

kaihp said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > kaihp said:
> ...



Yeah. I haven't been able to find the actual paper, either.


----------



## Diko (Feb 20, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> Canon is once again talking about their 250mp image sensor that <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-develops-aps-h-size-cmos-sensor-with-approximately-250-megapixels/" target="_blank">they showcased at the Canon EXPO</a> back in September. This time, they’ve presented a paper at the ISSCC 2016 Conference (All About Sensors).</p>
> <p><a href="http://harvestimaging.com/blog/?p=1536" target="_blank">Harvest Imaging</a> has this to say about what Canon presented:</p>
> <blockquote><p>Hirofumi Totsuka of Canon presented a 250 Mpixel APS-H size imager : 1.5 um pixel pitch (4 sharing) made in 0.13 um technology node. The device is consuming 1.97 W at full resolution 5fps. An interesting build-in feature of this sensor is the following : ALL pixel signals are converted by column SS-ADCs with a single ramp, but in front of the ADC, each column has its own PGA that can be switched to 4x or 1x gain, depending on the signal level. So when the pixels are sampled, a first check is done to look whether the signal is above or below a particular reference level, and then the right gain of the PGA is set to 1x or 4x. Simple method, but I think that the issues pop up in the reconstruction of the signal at the cross-over point between the two settings of the PGA.</p></blockquote>
> <p>This sensor does not mean that the APS-H sensor size is returning. We imagine that whenever the 250mp sensor comes to market, it will be in a full frame application.</p>
> <span id="pty_trigger"></span>



I hope I provide additional info: The sensor is actually with a Dual Gain Amplifiers logic. 


> An APS-H size 250Mpixel CMOS Image Sensor Using Column Signal ADCs with Dual Gain Amplifiers
> Takashi Muto, Hirofumi Totsuka, Toshiki Tsuboi, Daisuke Yoshida, Yasushi Matsuno, Masanobu Ohmura, Hidekazu Takahashi, Katsuhito Sakurai, Takeshi Ichikawa, Hiroshi Yuzurihara, Shunsuke Inoue (Canon)



*Here* is the conference in Japan where Canon once again will show off with its new baby.


----------



## alliumnsk (Feb 26, 2016)

They should make a light field camera based on this sensor, e.g. with interchangleable lenslet arrays. Lytro projects suffered of low resolution, there 250/16 = 15 mp still left, and 4x more DOF possible


----------

