# Patent: Pop up viewfinder to allow for larger rear LCD displays



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 2, 2020)

> Northlight has uncovered a patent showing a pop-up viewfinder for PowerShot cameras, which also includes an eye-detection sensor.
> It appears that this development will allow for a larger LCD on the rear of the camera.
> While this looks like it would be for PowerShot cameras, perhaps a future very small form factor RF mount camera could use this sort of viewfinder as well.



Continue reading...


----------



## okaro (Apr 2, 2020)

I got the idea that the invention is that the viewfinder pops out automatically. I wonder how they prevent false popping like if the camera is on the neck.


----------



## sanj (Apr 2, 2020)

Others have been doing this for over 6 years.


----------



## keithcooper (Apr 2, 2020)

okaro said:


> I got the idea that the invention is that the viewfinder pops out automatically. I wonder how they prevent false popping like if the camera is on the neck.


Looking at the patent application...
The main idea is that the eye detect sensor is moved into the pop-up EVF bit, so that it isn't in part of the main camera body/screen and thus impinging on the available area for the screen.


----------



## keithcooper (Apr 2, 2020)

sanj said:


> Others have been doing this for over 6 years.


Doing what? - did you read the patent application?


----------



## hachu21 (Apr 2, 2020)

Well, this patent seems already in use with the G5X mkII.
Except for the pop up flash, I see no differences.


----------



## efmshark (Apr 2, 2020)

Sony RX100 series had this feature for quite some time.


----------



## IcyBergs (Apr 2, 2020)

The patent is for 'eye detection' not a pop-up viewfinder. 

That's how it prevents false popping, because it isn't a simple sensor looking for light to be blocked or a proximity sensor so if its hanging from around your neck laying on your chest it would pop-up. 

This is specifically detecting the presence of an eye to engage the viewfinder.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Apr 2, 2020)

IcyBergs said:


> The patent is for 'eye detection' not a pop-up viewfinder.
> 
> That's how it prevents false popping, because it isn't a simple sensor looking for light to be blocked or a proximity sensor so if its hanging from around your neck laying on your chest it would pop-up.
> 
> This is specifically detecting the presence of an eye to engage the viewfinder.


That would be great for my R. It gets triggered and is a nuisance. I don't want to disable it so I put up with false triggering.


----------



## Danglin52 (Apr 2, 2020)

I just hope they don’t get the bright idea of using this type of viewfinder if they release a EF-M5 Mark II. I Want a robust, weather sealed camera.


----------



## sanj (Apr 2, 2020)

keithcooper said:


> Doing what? - did you read the patent application?


Pop up viewfinder. I guess you missed the title of this post. Happens.


----------



## keithcooper (Apr 2, 2020)

sanj said:


> Pop up viewfinder. I guess you missed the title of this post. Happens.


No, I found the original patent application, as mentioned in the post ;-)


----------



## sanj (Apr 2, 2020)

keithcooper said:


> No, I found the original patent application, as mentioned in the post ;-)


Yes. You are right. Happens.


----------



## picperfect (Apr 2, 2020)

just do it, Canon. Want to see EOS M60 with pop-up EVF abd M6 II sensor + AF. And maybe also an M5 II. 

EOS R lineup? Not very likely. They are more for people wanting chunky grips, shoulder LCD displays and big, (D)SLR-style viewfinder humps on top. to them it is only a "real camera" if it looks similar to a late 1980's EOS SLR.


----------



## YuengLinger (Apr 2, 2020)

picperfect said:


> just do it, Canon. Want to see EOS M60 with pop-up EVF abd M6 II sensor + AF. And maybe also an M5 II.
> 
> EOS R lineup? Not very likely. They are more for people wanting chunky grips, shoulder LCD displays and big, (D)SLR-style viewfinder humps on top. to them it is only a "real camera" if it looks similar to a late 1980's EOS SLR.



Who exactly are these people you seem to know so well?


----------



## TinTin (Apr 2, 2020)

My understanding of the patent application is that crucial points are:

The eye detection unit is placed within the unit holding the rear display and thus moves when the display is moved on its hinge arrangement.
The detector is in the top part of the display unit between the hinges and thus does not require the display unit to be made bigger than it would have been had the detector not been there.
The eye detector is offset from the viewfinder so that, if the display is hinged up 180 degrees, the viewfinder does not cause the eye detector to falsely determine someone is looking through the viewfinder. Likewise, the detector is offset to the left of the camera's centre-line to give the best chance of detecting a face in its vicinity. (So it doesn't matter which eye is used.)
The arrangement allows a pop-up viewfinder which can also be tilted to allow easier viewfinder use at awkward camera angles.
I'm not sure exactly what is the novel feature, but I assume it's putting eye detection in the rear display assembly, the other points then being ramifications necessary to make it the best workable implementation.


----------



## sanj (Apr 3, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Who exactly are these people you seem to know so well?


He knows me through this forum.


----------



## picperfect (Apr 3, 2020)

TinTin said:


> The arrangement allows a pop-up viewfinder which can also be tilted to allow easier viewfinder use at awkward camera angles.




exactly! 

exactly what i am waiting for: M6 II sensor + AF in a (slightly) enlarged, "G5X II style" body with (vastly improved) pop-up EVF, utilizing this patent. single sd uhs-II card slot and no video recording no issue but preferred. price like M50. take my money.


----------



## Quirkz (Apr 3, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> That would be great for my R. It gets triggered and is a nuisance. I don't want to disable it so I put up with false triggering.


Same. 
To be fair, I’ve had the problem with most mirrorless cameras with an evf.


----------



## Sean C (Apr 3, 2020)

I'm a fan of the viewfinder on the far left so my nose has room. I'd like to have that bit of viewfinder usability.


----------



## TinTin (Apr 3, 2020)

keithcooper said:


> Looking at the patent application...
> The main idea is that the eye detect sensor is moved into the pop-up EVF bit, so that it isn't in part of the main camera body/screen and thus impinging on the available area for the screen.


That may make sense... but it's definitely NOT what this patent application is describing:


Paragraph 0039 of the application describes the eye detection sensor, which is labelled as item 200 in the diagrams.
Paragraph 0044 of the application describes a "protective plate" to cover the eye detection sensor. This plate is labelled 201 in the diagrams.

If you look at the diagrams, you see quite clearly that the items marked 200 or 201 are NOT on the viewfinder, but are in the same assembly as the display panel. This fact is also made plain later in the text of the patent application.

Paragraph 0074 is interesting, as it explains that, although not illustrated in the diagrams, "the eyepiece may be operable while tilted. This arrangement, even when the camera is held at a low position for shooting from a low angle, enables to enhance operabiility when using the electronic viewfinder."


----------



## Dragon (Apr 3, 2020)

With any luck, this is one of the features along with a lower power processor that the M5II has been waiting for.


----------



## hachu21 (Apr 4, 2020)

Sean C said:


> I'm a fan of the viewfinder on the far left so my nose has room. I'd like to have that bit of viewfinder usability.


For me that's a strength of the removable viewfinder on the M6/M6 II.
It's more above the camera, with more space around for nose, glasses and Co...

Yeah, there's downsides too. But this additional comfort is not often mentioned.
I suppose you have to try those camera to notice it.


----------



## kforrestry (Apr 6, 2020)

can we just ditch EVF's? i've gone to using my LCD exclusively the last year, and dont really see the advantage of using an EVF at this point?


----------



## picperfect (Apr 6, 2020)

kforrestry said:


> can we just ditch EVF's? i've gone to using my LCD exclusively the last year, and dont really see the advantage of using an EVF at this point?



fine if it works for you.

I can see many advantages of having a viewfinder - electronic or optical - in cameras and absolutely want them for myself. In my opinion, "no EVF" only works with small & light devices - smartphones, very compact cameras and lenses. Framing and capturing images while holding heavy/chunky gear at arm's length is no viable option, even if Chuck Norris can steadily handhold 800mm lenses for long exposures. 

But even on small devices viewfinder has decisive advantages:
* much better stabilized camera position using viewfinder = shorter shutter speeds and/or lower ISO setting possible = better chances to get shots of moving subjects and higher image quality
* less need to use tripod, which is often not easy/possible - depending on capture situation, subject etc.
* viewfinder also works well in brightly lit environments, eg. outdoors on sunny day, or in contralight - compared to using rear display: much easier to judge scene, exposure, color, etc. without glare all around = better chance to get desired image, higher chance for best possible image quality
* more concentrated/framed/shielded view of scene, often helps composition. Of course there are also situations where framing on larger rear display has advantages, eg to better watch area outside/surrounding framed view through lens - that's why decent cameras offer both options. 

As much as i like my Canon EOS M (original, 1st gen) - lack of viewfinder is its greatest shortcoming. Will never purchase another camera without viewfinder - no go for EOS M6 II. At the same time i value ultracompact gear. That's why I am really hoping for an EOS M50 successor with (somewhat) smaller form factor, without bulky central viewfinder hump but rather a built-in pop-up EVF [similar to Powershot G5X II) - with smarter eye detect sensor along the lines of this patent.


----------



## SteveC (Apr 6, 2020)

picperfect said:


> * viewfinder also works well in brightly lit environments, eg. outdoors on sunny day, or in contralight - compared to using rear display: much easier to judge scene, exposure, color, etc. without glare all around = better chance to get desired image, higher chance for best possible image quality



This, precisely this.

Several years ago at the San Diego zoo, I found myself unable to tell whether my Rebel T3 was making a video or not, outside in the sun. The red dot on the screen was invisible, and it was an OVF and didn't show there. I could at least frame what I might or might not have been videoing because of the OVF. If I hadn't had that, I'd have been completely crippled.

As a result, I didn't get video of a Galapagos tortoise moving at WARP SPEED (well, okay, for a turtle) because it was feeding time.

On the upside, an M6-II at least can have an EVF attached--that actually has some advantages, such as projecting far enough from the back of the camera I don't smack my nose into the screen. I decided that was good enough and bought the camera. Would I rather have had am M5-II with a viewfinder? Sure, but I'll take a real camera over a non-existent one any day of the week.

(Some are hoping an M5-II with IBIS comes out...that would be cool and would explain why they didn't release one at the same time as the M6-II.)


----------

