# Using (Fill) Flash



## mrsfotografie (Aug 3, 2013)

So I've been doing most if not all of my photography over the last 7 years without using a flash. I like ambient light and hate what an external flash does to the weight balance of my camera body.

I'm pretty happy with most of the results but it's time to get more out of my photography and start using fill-flash. The goal however is to preserve as much ambient light as possible; I dislike it when a flash has obviously been used to get a picture.

So my question is: Do you have any recommendations I can start out with? What conditions would typically require which settings? 

Note that I would like to use it for general photography because I do very little portraiture.

FWIW I have a Metz 48 AF-1 with a STO-FEN Omni Bounce. I'm not immediately interested in getting more flash gear or reflective screens etc.

Thanks all!


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## agierke (Aug 3, 2013)

What do you mean by general photography?

The size of speedlights on camera is pretty much ideally suited to fill for portrait work when ambient needs to be preserved. Any subject matter larger than that and the usefulness of a speedlight on camera begins to diminish greatly. At that point, getting the speedlight off camera is ideal.

I guess I'm confused as to what you are trying to achieve if portraiture is not a concern to you. More specifics would be useful...maybe a sample image?


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## Sporgon (Aug 3, 2013)

Shoot camera in manual, stick tissue over flash, knock it down -2 stops on exp comp.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 3, 2013)

Read every word and study every image on this site.

http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/

This guy is the best user of mixed flash and ambient I have seen. The key, BOUNCE, but do it smart, ETTL and flag, the "black foamie thing" changed my flash photography.


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## Marsu42 (Aug 3, 2013)

mrsfotografie said:


> So I've been doing most if not all of my photography over the last 7 years without using a flash.



1. Buy Syl Aren'as book.
2. Read Syl Aren'as book.
3. For starters, shoot in Av - camera ec controls flash-ambient ratio, and then experiment with ettl flash ec.


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## RLPhoto (Aug 3, 2013)

If your mixing flash with ambient, Get some CTO Orange, Blues and Green Gels for balance and effects. After a while, I found I was gelling a-lot of my shots for the better.

Honl Speed strap + Velcoed gels


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## Marsu42 (Aug 3, 2013)

RLPhoto said:



> If your mixing flash with ambient, Get some CTO Orange, Blues and Green Gels



You're actually using blue or green correction gels? I'm using various cto all the time, but for effects I'm about to order "real" effects gels like these: http://flashgels.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=98


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## RLPhoto (Aug 3, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > If your mixing flash with ambient, Get some CTO Orange, Blues and Green Gels
> ...



Why not?


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## privatebydesign (Aug 3, 2013)

Well to *balance* daylight you are not using blue or green correction gels on strobes. But they do have lots of good uses, creating or adding mood or ambiance, though I find the bolder gels more applicable most of the time, you have to print big to get the subtler shades of gel to come out effectively within a scene, IMHO.

Traditionally green correction gels are used to make flash the same colour as some fluorescent lights and blue is used to make tungsten lamps daylight balanced, obviously neither is relevant to flash to daylight correction.

First shot below is a shot with three flashes with different gels, (plus four tungsten lamps, a TV and the car tail lamps) one red, to exaggerate the tail lamps outside, one with both blue and purple to mimic the TV output, and one CTO to match the tungsten lamp light. But it is totally irrelevant to the subject of daylight balancing strobes. 

Mid day strobes are pretty close to daylight and need no correction, early and late in the day 1/4, 1/2 and full CTO and CTS are all very useful.

Second shot is a late afternoon strobe to daylight balanced shot. 1/2 CTO on the strobe into an umbrella to match the setting sun.


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## RLPhoto (Aug 3, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Well to *balance* daylight you are not using blue or green correction gels on strobes. But they do have lots of good uses, creating or adding mood or ambiance, though I find the bolder gels more applicable most of the time, you have to print big to get the subtler shades of gel to come out effectively within a scene, IMHO.
> 
> Traditionally green correction gels are used to make flash the same colour as some fluorescent lights and blue is used to make tungsten lamps daylight balanced, obviously neither is relevant to flash to daylight correction.
> 
> ...



Ambient light comes in many shades of color and many different situations. I simply made a suggestion to add a set of Color correction gels to his order for balancing and FX's. Color correction gels can be used for so much more...

IE: http://strobist.blogspot.com/2013/08/on-assignment-scout-and-shoot-pt-2.html

Below: one 1/2 CTB gelled Key-light makes the Rim lights more warm.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 3, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> If your mixing flash with ambient, Get some CTO Orange, Blues and Green Gels for balance and effects.



I was replying to this specific comment, not lambasting or criticising you. Having said that, can you show me a shot where you have used blue and/or green gels to good effect in the manner the OP asked about? That, after all, was Marsu42's reply to your suggestion, how would you use blue and green gels to balance ambient. i showed use of a blue gel, but it was totally against what the OP asked about.


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## RLPhoto (Aug 3, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > If your mixing flash with ambient, Get some CTO Orange, Blues and Green Gels for balance and effects.
> ...



Orange = Warmer. IE: Bouncing Flash in tungsten ambient.

Blue = Cooler. IE: Blue hour after sunset through a softbox.

Green = Greener? IE: Maybe to Direct-fill in shadows indoors with florescent tubes.

Plenty of reasons to have all three. Afterall, Gels are cheap.

Below: I wanted the Ambient light inside to be warmer than my flash. They were daylight balanced florescents so my flash would be the same temp. I used a CT blue and bounced which gave it a nice warm feeling with good skin tones.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 3, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> Green = Greener? IE: Maybe to Direct-fill in shadows indoors with florescent tubes.
> 
> Plenty of reasons to have all three. Afterall, Gels are cheap.



I haven't used a green gel since giving up film, though I know Greg Heisler uses them to very subtle effect. But back on point, can you answer my question?
_
"can you show me a shot where you have used blue and/or green gels to good effect in the manner the OP asked about?"_ Specifically balancing ambient? I take it from your answers so far, you can't........


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## RLPhoto (Aug 3, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Green = Greener? IE: Maybe to Direct-fill in shadows indoors with florescent tubes.
> ...



??? ??? ???

OP

"So I've been doing most if not all of my photography over the last 7 years without using a flash. I like ambient light and hate what an external flash does to the weight balance of my camera body.

I'm pretty happy with most of the results but it's time to get more out of my photography and start using fill-flash. The goal however is to preserve as much ambient light as possible; I dislike it when a flash has obviously been used to get a picture."

He say's ambient. Ambient is alot of things broski. XD

I may not use the green gel as much, but I'd always have one.

"Lighting 101: Using Gels to Correct Light" <----- Check that on strobist fyi.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 3, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> Below: I wanted the Ambient light inside to be warmer than my flash. They were daylight balanced florescents so my flash would be the same temp. I used a CT blue and bounced which gave it a nice warm feeling with good skin tones.



Sorry, but to me the guy in the Volcom tee shirt looks rather pasty and coolly lit (in the color temp sense, not the 'man, that's cool' sense). I don't call the pasty look a 'good skin tone'. That's exactly what I'd expect when adding blue light to daylight-balanced ambient - pasty skin tones and cool lighting, not warm. Blue = cool, might want to do some reading on strobist.blogspot.com yourself...

FWIW, PBD understands flash lighting better than most on these boards.


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## RLPhoto (Aug 3, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Below: I wanted the Ambient light inside to be warmer than my flash. They were daylight balanced florescents so my flash would be the same temp. I used a CT blue and bounced which gave it a nice warm feeling with good skin tones.
> ...



Looks good to me and I'm sure if you were there you'd understand. It has a sense of place but I don't expect everyone to agree. As for PBD, he has his own opinions as well.

I still use Blue, orange, and green gels for flash. It doesn't change my recommendation one bit.


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## surapon (Aug 3, 2013)

Dear Friends.
Yes. off the Camera are the Best for Side Light and not let the flash make the 2D. look Face of the Model. Yes, Past 5 years, When I go to take the Portrait Photos, With out 2 Nd. People Help to carry the Light, Or I do not have time to set up the Fill Lights, I just use my On camera Flash, But Put " Graslon 4100F"= $ 85 US DOLLARS, and Shoot in door and Out door = Perfected Super Fast--Portait/ Wedding Photos for Me.

https://www.facebook.com/surapon01/media_set?set=a.4347005551010.2183692.1163677771&type=3

Now, If I have more time and Slow Shooting, and Want Better Picture, I use my DIY portable Lighting system for my Perfected Portrait/ Canddid Pictures 

https://www.facebook.com/surapon01/media_set?set=a.10200210668847105.2199847.1163677771&type=3

Enjoy.
Surapon Sujjavanich, AIA, CPS Gold Member

Dear Friend, I just New in this Post-----No, I am Big Fan in this Column for 2 years, But, I just try to Post my Thinking past 5 posts. One question that hit me, I never have Canon PowerShot G15, But Why it show under my Name ??----Thanks.


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## mrsfotografie (Aug 3, 2013)

agierke said:


> What do you mean by general photography?
> 
> The size of speedlights on camera is pretty much ideally suited to fill for portrait work when ambient needs to be preserved. Any subject matter larger than that and the usefulness of a speedlight on camera begins to diminish greatly. At that point, getting the speedlight off camera is ideal.
> 
> I guess I'm confused as to what you are trying to achieve if portraiture is not a concern to you. More specifics would be useful...maybe a sample image?



Well there will be the odd portrait I guess, but think of it as 'street photography' to generalise a little bit. IE outside conditions, sometimes with people in the frame but I want to deal mostly with lost detail in the shadows. I don't usually have the opportunity to wait for the best light conditions so sometimes need to work around/with harsh sunlight.



Sporgon said:


> Shoot camera in manual, stick tissue over flash, knock it down -2 stops on exp comp.



Why in manual? Isn't 'Aperture' priority a good starting point? What sync speed should I use?



privatebydesign said:


> Read every word and study every image on this site.
> 
> http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/
> 
> This guy is the best user of mixed flash and ambient I have seen. The key, BOUNCE, but do it smart, ETTL and flag, the "black foamie thing" changed my flash photography.



Thanks, this is something I can use! I'm looking at on-camera flash obviously because portability is paramount. Will have a read-through of this site.
--

And as for the discussion about off-camera flash and gels and such  ... please continue and enjoy your discussion folks but it is obviously not of practical application to me! But still I'm learning and inspired with every post you make so bring it on .


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## sanj (Aug 3, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> Shoot camera in manual, stick tissue over flash, knock it down -2 stops on exp comp.



Agree


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## sanj (Aug 3, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Well to *balance* daylight you are not using blue or green correction gels on strobes. But they do have lots of good uses, creating or adding mood or ambiance, though I find the bolder gels more applicable most of the time, you have to print big to get the subtler shades of gel to come out effectively within a scene, IMHO.
> 
> Traditionally green correction gels are used to make flash the same colour as some fluorescent lights and blue is used to make tungsten lamps daylight balanced, obviously neither is relevant to flash to daylight correction.
> 
> ...



love your posted pictures


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## privatebydesign (Aug 3, 2013)

_"And as for the discussion about off-camera flash and gels and such  ... please continue and enjoy your discussion folks *but it is obviously not of practical application to me!*"_

And there in lies the problem I have with so much of RLP's advice opinion, whilst it might be valid or correct information in and of itself, he seems incapable of parsing his knowledge into relevant information for the OP. The answer to every lens question is not 135 f1.8 IS or 50 f1.2. The answer in this thread is not to buy green gels. This has sometimes made me appear to be on a RPL witch hunt, and that absolutely is not the case, but I am passionate about pointing people in the right direction *for them* and can be outspoken if I think they are being led astray, of course I make mistakes, I have made several howlers here on CR, but I like to think when I do I just say I am wrong, and I have done that several times.

Interesting use of a blue gel, but as Neuro says, not a generally pleasing outcome from the OP's objective, the guy in the background looks nuclear, the ceiling has been painted out of two buckets of paint that were different colours and one of the main subjects looks unwell. Very far away from the OP's intention. Still interested to see your best use of a green gel, one of the ones you specifically recommended.


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## RLPhoto (Aug 3, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> _"And as for the discussion about off-camera flash and gels and such  ... please continue and enjoy your discussion folks *but it is obviously not of practical application to me!*"_
> 
> And there in lies the problem I have with so much of RLP's advice opinion, whilst it might be valid or correct information in and of itself, *he seems incapable of parsing his knowledge into relevant information for the OP. *The answer to every lens question is not 135 f1.8 IS or 50 f1.2. The answer in this thread is not to buy green gels. This has sometimes made me appear to be on a RPL witch hunt, and that absolutely is not the case, but I am passionate about pointing people in the right direction *for them* and can be outspoken if I think they are being led astray, of course I make mistakes, I have made several howlers here on CR, but I like to think when I do I just say I am wrong, and I have done that several times.
> 
> Interesting use of a blue gel, but as Neuro says, not a generally pleasing outcome from the OP's objective, the guy in the background looks nuclear, the ceiling has been painted out of two buckets of paint that were different colours and one of the main subjects looks unwell. Very far away from the OP's intention. Still interested to see your best use of a green gel, one of the ones you specifically recommended.



LOL! That's cute PBD. You know, your right! You are very outspoken, to the point of losing the point of the original comments. mrsfotografie now stated about not needing gels, which is fine, but atleast I let the OP know about them as an option for the situations they may be needed in.

I'm not quick to point out minor difference's in tastes in photos but if you must insist on that difference in taste, Your first photo looks worse than a belt-sander on an elephants backside. I have no idea what your trying to convey there.  Gel's can't fix a bad idea.

Your second photo is pretty OOF. Unfortunately for you, that's much harder to correct.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 3, 2013)

Is that your best attempt at showing us an image in which you used your recommended green gel to balance ambient? ;D

Here I was having a bad day stuck in Ft Lauderdale airport and you still manage to make me smile, thanks.


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## RLPhoto (Aug 3, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Is that your best attempt at showing us an image in which you used your recommended green gel to balance ambient? ;D
> 
> Here I was having a bad day stuck in Ft Lauderdale airport and you still manage to make me smile, thanks.



The OP has no need for gels. Why would I continue posting about them? Plus, a man of your caliber should understand when to use a green gel. : 

(Strobist still has that article if you want to read up on it.)


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## Sporgon (Aug 3, 2013)

@ mrsfotographie, use whatever shutter speed you want as long as it is longer than, or equal to, your cameras sync speed. 

@ RLP; I think you'll find the softness in PBD's second picture is defraction from having the sun in the frame.


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## serendipidy (Aug 3, 2013)

surapon said:


> Dear Friends.
> One question that hit me, I never have Canon PowerShot G15, But Why it show under my Name ??----Thanks.



The camera under a posters name is given by CR according to how many posts you have made. The more posts, the better the camera you get assigned. Look at the number of posts and see the cameras other got. 8)


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## surapon (Aug 4, 2013)

serendipidy said:


> surapon said:
> 
> 
> > Dear Friends.
> ...



Thank you, Sir, Dear Serendipidy, for your clear answer.


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## Marsu42 (Aug 4, 2013)

mrsfotografie said:


> And as for the discussion about off-camera flash and gels and such  ... please continue and enjoy your discussion folks but it is obviously not of practical application to me!



I'd say you're mistaken here, I made the same mistake, if you use flash you *have* to know about gels, at least about orange (cto) to balance daylight because that will save you hours of postprocessing with the whitebalance brush to edit away the horrible/amateurish blue flash color cast.



RLPhoto said:


> The OP has no need for gels. Why would I continue posting about them? Plus, a man of your caliber should understand when to use a green gel. :



I don't see any problem widening a thread, this most of the time this is when it gets interesting (for me) - it's great if the op gets specific advice, but I don't think a thread necessarily has to stick to it - esp. since anybody beginning with flash photography should also know about gels.



RLPhoto said:


> Blue = Cooler. IE: Blue hour after sunset through a softbox.
> Green = Greener? IE: Maybe to Direct-fill in shadows indoors with florescent tubes.



From everything I read imho for CTG privatebydesign says the same I've read on the usual suspect's websites: florescent is now so different that you cannot gel it away, and thus I see little reason to have it. But thanks for the idea about CTB, though I also suspect that the effect often might be too subtle so a "stronger" effects gel should do better.


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## Hesbehindyou (Aug 4, 2013)

mrsfotografie said:


> So I've been doing most if not all of my photography over the last 7 years without using a flash. I like ambient light and ... I dislike it when a flash has obviously been used to get a picture.
> 
> So my question is: Do you have any recommendations I can start out with? What conditions would typically require which settings?
> 
> Note that I would like to use it for general photography because I do very little portraiture.



Excellent website I've recently stumbled across. Heavily portrait-biased but what's the difference between a person and a 'thing'? 
http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/natural-looking-flash/

Note in the 2nd example the subject in the foreground is _entirely_ lit by the flash as he's had to have a relatively fast shutter speed (to keep the colour in the stained glass windows) and without the flash the foreground subject would have almost been a silhouette. He's made the flash look natural by a) bouncing it off a wall behind him, and b) Correcting white balance of foreground (and possibly background) in post.

This other page deals with mixing flash and ambient light, which seems to be exactly the sort of thing you want - particularly the first example.
http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/flash-and-ambient-light/

The pages are part of a series and I'd suggest you read them all, plus the Stobist 101 & 102 series. Even if you're not using flash in the way that they do you'll be wanting to steal some of their ideas.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 4, 2013)

Hesbehindyou said:


> Excellent website I've recently stumbled across. Heavily portrait-biased but what's the difference between a person and a 'thing'?
> http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/natural-looking-flash/



Funny thing...I recently stumbled across that website, too. Astounding coincidence? Or the fact that privatebydesign linked it in the 3rd post of this thread? :-X


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## Hesbehindyou (Aug 4, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Hesbehindyou said:
> 
> 
> > Excellent website I've recently stumbled across. Heavily portrait-biased but what's the difference between a person and a 'thing'?
> ...



Heh, I'll have to pay more attention next time. I've been learning about flash recently as I'm unhappy with both natural light and my attempts to improve upon it. That site and the strobist 101 & 102 series are easily the best out there on the web.


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## mrsfotografie (Aug 10, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> Shoot camera in manual, stick tissue over flash, knock it down -2 stops on exp comp.



I will give this tissue thing a go on my 7D when I use the built-in flash.

I have an event tomorrow; 'living' statues. Going to bring the 7D + Tammy 17-50 f/2.8 for group / environmental pics, and the 5D2 with a 70-200 f/2.8 IS II and Metz flash for the portraits. I'm wondering if the latter combination will work, or will the lens cast shadows???


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## mrsfotografie (Aug 11, 2013)

Thanks all, had a great day photographing 'living statues' with fill flash. Alrhough it felt a little bit confusing at times I'm pretty happy with some of the results  Here's a sample:


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## Sporgon (Aug 11, 2013)

mrsfotografie said:


> Thanks all, had a great day photographing 'living statues' with fill flash. Alrhough it felt a little bit confusing at times I'm pretty happy with some of the results  Here's a sample:



Well I think in your original post you said you wanted a straight forward technique to give a natural light.

I couldn't tell you've used fill in flash in that picture !


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## mrsfotografie (Aug 11, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> mrsfotografie said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks all, had a great day photographing 'living statues' with fill flash. Alrhough it felt a little bit confusing at times I'm pretty happy with some of the results  Here's a sample:
> ...



Sporgon, thanks! Exactly the type of result I was looking for; flash without it being obvious. I even wrote your simple guidelines on a sticky note as a reminder. I ended up shooting most of my pictures in Tv because light conditions were varying too much (clouds, sunshine) to shoot fully manual. I did use the camera in fast flash sync as well. I'm really happy and think I've reached a milestone today (but still have much to learn).


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