# Magic Lantern on a 5D3 for stills?



## ahsanford (Apr 2, 2015)

Hey gang,

my 5D3 enters its third year of service. It's been terrific. 

I was curious to see who out there is running ML on theirs, and specifically what the experience / upside has been _for stills_. I (perhaps mistakenly) think of ML as a tool for video folks, but I never shoot any and didn't give ML much thought.

But rather than pour through an exhaustive list of ML features at their site, are there any specific stills features you've used and would recommend? Any slick tools to assist focusing with MF lenses? Any upsides to general IQ, DR, etc.? Does the menu system offer the ability to tune more parts of the camera, or unlock any 1DX goodness (like spot-metering at any AF point?)

Besides the warranty considerations, are there any drawbacks to using it? I assume the risk of bricking the camera is small this far post-release, right? Does it chew through battery life faster?

If it helps peg what I might value in ML, I'm principally an available light shooter from 16-200mm: landscapes, travel, macro, candids, street, events and some very infrequent sports/wildlife opportunities. I typically don't do video, timelapse, astro or dedicated portraiture.

Just curious for your thoughts, thanks!

- A


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## Marsu42 (Apr 2, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> my 5D3 enters its third year of service. It's been terrific. I was curious to see who out there is running ML on theirs, and specifically what the experience / upside has been _for stills_. I (perhaps mistakenly) think of ML as a tool for video folks, but I never shoot any and didn't give ML much thought.



That's 2 missed years for you, the stills features of ML are terrific - I'd esp. lost w/o the dynamic range expansion of dual_iso. The 5d3 is the prime ML development target, so this port is as stable as it gets.


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## rpt (Apr 2, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > my 5D3 enters its third year of service. It's been terrific. I was curious to see who out there is running ML on theirs, and specifically what the experience / upside has been _for stills_. I (perhaps mistakenly) think of ML as a tool for video folks, but I never shoot any and didn't give ML much thought.
> ...


+1

I use dual ISO and focus stacking in macros regularly. I only use ML for stills. It is very stable. Never had a crash.

A1ex has now added full resolution silent movies and I will update to the latest build soon.


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## ahsanford (Apr 2, 2015)

I've never taken my macro work seriously enough to focus stack, but if there's a feature that makes it a more streamlined process, that would be great. I'll look into it.

Dual-ISO and Auto ETTR frequently get referenced. How slick (or finnicky) are they to use and tweak settings on the fly? Do you save those for more composed/patient shooting or can you run and gun with it like your normal 'triangle' settings of shutter/aperture/ISO?

Also -- any love for spot metering at an off-center AF point? _I'd get ML just for that_. I thought the 1D series's second DIGIC chip was metering intensive for exactly those sort of tasks, so I wonder if it's even possible on a 5D3...

- A


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## Valvebounce (Apr 2, 2015)

Hi A.
It has focus trap, might help for manual lenses, I don't know, I don't have any. I have used it a couple of times, it seems good to me. 

Cheers, Graham.


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## ahsanford (Apr 2, 2015)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi A.
> It has focus trap, might help for manual lenses, I don't know, I don't have any. I have used it a couple of times, it seems good to me.
> 
> Cheers, Graham.



Graham,

Is that only with LiveView, or is there some focus confirmation in the viewfinder?

- A


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## Valvebounce (Apr 2, 2015)

Hi A. 
Sorry, I only used it a couple of times early last year on my 7D and don't remember the finer details. 

Cheers, Graham. 



ahsanford said:


> Valvebounce said:
> 
> 
> > Hi A.
> ...


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## tpatana (Apr 3, 2015)

For stills my pros/cons:

+Dual-ISO

-Boot-up-time ~2 seconds (instead of the ~0.2)


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## lintoni (Apr 3, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> Also -- any love for spot metering at an off-center AF point? _I'd get ML just for that_. I thought the 1D series's second DIGIC chip was metering intensive for exactly those sort of tasks, so I wonder if it's even possible on a 5D3...
> 
> - A



As part of Magic Lantern's wonderful array of RAW based exposure aids? Oh, go on then...

http://magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=12096.0#post_Spotmeter

Also dual-ISO, intervalometer, programmable bulb timer...


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## ahsanford (Apr 3, 2015)

It's like finding spectacular sushi at the supermarket refrigerator section. It's like a traffic-free day in Los Angeles. It's like Firefly, Season Two. 

_Such things are not supposed to exist.
_
I think I need a moment...

- A


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## mackguyver (Apr 3, 2015)

tpatana said:


> -Boot-up-time ~2 seconds (instead of the ~0.2)


Really? ML is something I've considered trying over the years, and thought it was all good with no downside other than the lack of warranty or whatever you want to call it.

A 2s boot time would frustrate me, though. Yes, I know I am spoiled...but that was my #1 frustration when going from film to digital, followed closely by waiting for the buffer to clear when shooting TIFFs. Yes, I am getting old, but I was cutting edge back in the late 1990s


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## DominoDude (Apr 3, 2015)

A few of my findings from one of the latest builds (on a 7D, and not a 5D MkIII):
* Bricked the camera while out shooting the other day. Had to abandon the session and go home. Batteries recharged and did a new test yesterday - seems fine, but there's no solid event log to show me why it went tits up in the first place.

* As mentioned boot time, and time to revive the camera after stand-by, is something that stops you from quick shooting exactly when you want/need it.

* It's my feeling that it drains the battery a little faster (my battery is old, so I can't blame ML entirely).

* Recently my rear dial stopped working for changing EC, or if in M mode I can't change shutter time or aperture (whichever is assigned to it - tried both). I can move focus point with the rear dial without problem, and I can also browse through images with it. Really annoying "feature" that haven't been around earlier...
_I might try to go back to some of the earlier builds to see if I can get rid of it that way. Haven't had the time to do that yet._

* Auto-ETTR - should be good, but, in ways I can't fully describe, I'm not as happy with it as I hoped I would be.

In all: It has some nifty features, but it's quirky.
Try it, it doesn't take much time to give it a quick check. You can always format the card to get rid of ML and go back to a vanilla config.


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## mackguyver (Apr 3, 2015)

DominoDude, your post gives me even more pause about ML. I have no complaints with Canon's default configuration, and I don't find the ML pluses are enough to overcome the minuses for my uses. Bricking a camera in the field, slow start up and wake up times are complete nonstarters for me. 

This is nothing against those of you who use it and have success with it, but I'm not interested.


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## ahsanford (Apr 3, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> DominoDude, your post gives me even more pause about ML. I have no complaints with Canon's default configuration, and I don't find the ML pluses are enough to overcome the minuses for my uses. Bricking a camera in the field, slow start up and wake up times are complete nonstarters for me.
> 
> This is nothing against those of you who use it and have success with it, but I'm not interested.



I'm torn, Mack. I really am.

I fawn over a working spot meter at any AF point, for of all things, candids, street and walkabout: 


I can't shoot manually as my lighting changes too often and the moment might be too fleeting for me to dial in the exposure.
Focus/recompose has small DOF problems. This will work if I don't mind shooting around f/5.6 or narrower, which I don't always want to do.
For some reason, I don't like the ergonomic hopscotch of AE lock or back button focusing to overcome this. I know it would work, but I prefer to drive my rig through the shutter button.

To me, spot metering at an off-center AF point + larger aperture work is the simplest implementation to nail something as it happens with an off-center subject (which comes up a lot).

Also, I shoot a lot of walkaround of high contrast items that I can't manage with multiple exposures, so dual ISO intrigues me.

But if there's a brick risk, or a chance of overcooking something from not running inside of Canon's 'safe' parameters, I have to ask myself how badly I want those features. Also, I generally love my Canon feature set, and I don't want to take my legs out on something I'm *not* unhappy with today -- if my control wheels / knobs stop working or run sluggishly under ML, it would be a no go for me.

- A


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## Marsu42 (Apr 3, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > -Boot-up-time ~2 seconds (instead of the ~0.2)
> ...



Yes, it prevents you from doing a cold start snapshot, but there's no way 'round it as the camera has to load the additional fw from the card. As I'm using ML for my whole Canon time, I've gotten used to it and cannot imagine the camera booting any faster anyway. If you suspect you'll need to do a spontaneous snapshot, simply leave it on, it's not like it's drawing a lot of battery power when the screen is off.


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## mackguyver (Apr 3, 2015)

I understand and that's very different from what I shoot, so I can understand. I think bricking is rare, but DominoDude's description of a bricked but recoverable camera means that the camera is useless until you go home.

Also, the linked spot metering works well on the 1D X, but (assuming it's similar in ML) isn't a simple solution. It's still Spot, so unless you're focusing on something that's close to 20% gray, you need to use exposure compensation to correct the exposure. For people's faces, it works great, but for mixed subjects (white birds and dark birds, for example) it's not a huge help.

Back-button focus works great for me, but it did take a while to use it and there are plenty of people who aren't fans, so that might help.

The dual ISO, ETTR exposure, and intervalometer features seems the most useful to me, with the rest being somewhat specialized to certain types of photography. The focus stacking is the only other thing I would be interested in from what I see on their site. It may work well with some lenses but the 180L macro I use has heavy focus breathing, so it would change the framing too much for anything but the smallest subjects.

The DSLR Controller for iOS/Android also does a lot of this stuff, minus being free and needing a phone or tablet to be tethered.


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## meywd (Apr 3, 2015)

Well, I have used magic lantern for around two years now, first on the 600D and now on the 5D3, no issues so far but I don't play much with it, I needed a couple of features that ML provided and I am still using these now, and I don't do video:


Intervalometer
Mirror Lock Up on timer
5+ Brackets (600D)
Dual ISO
Magic Zoom
Focus Peak
Auto ETTR
Focus Stacking (didn't use it much though)


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## Marsu42 (Apr 3, 2015)

DominoDude said:


> * Bricked the In all: It has some nifty features, but it's quirky.



I don't doubt your experiences, but the problem is that once ML is on a camera, the user might attribute absolute every problem to it, even if the problems would have happened otherwise as well. That being said, the 7d is a rather new port (the dual digic made some problems in the past) and might not be as rock stable as the 5d3.



mackguyver said:


> I understand and that's very different from what I shoot, so I can understand. I think bricking is rare, but DominoDude's description of a bricked but recoverable camera means that the camera is useless until you go home.



If ML should ever crash, you can fix this by removing the battery and rebooting. A soft-brick only occurs if ML writes invalid values to Canon nvram, and I'm very, very positive this is very, very unlikely to happen nowadays and with ports as stable as 5d3. The main dev (Alex) is very concerned about a possible bad rep and actually booted another dev out of the project because he wouldn't agree to the "stability over all" guideline.

It's not like I've something to gain by selling ML, but take it from me as a 3y intensive ML user: This software is as stable as it gets, you can use it w/o any concerns whatsoever.


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## ahsanford (Apr 3, 2015)

Awesome discussion guys -- just what I was looking for.

Marsu: you give me confidence that ML is a _temporary_ tattoo and not a permanent one. I dig it.

Mack: Skin tones / mid-tones only on off-center spot metering is A+ to me. Maybe I should just buy a 1DX. :

I think I'm going to give ML a try before too long. Thanks, everyone.

- A


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## yorgasor (Apr 4, 2015)

I like to play with old manual focus lenses. Magick Lantern's focus peaking is good for manual focus during video, but for still photos, I have the magnifier turn on 5x when I press the shutter halfway down. I have a much higher success rate that way than I ever did using the standard focusing screen. That feature alone is enough to convert me to ML. The built in intervelometer was another clincher (my 10 yr old Nikon D2x has a built-in intervelometer, why do I need a special hack to get one on my 5D3???)


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## msowsun (Apr 4, 2015)

Here are more useful items for still photographers:

1) Auto DOT Tune 
2) Auto Kelvin White Balance (uses Liveview to really nail the WB, then stays set for normal viewfinder shooting) 
3) Option to always default to the CF card (avoids accidentally switching to the SD card when you pull the CF card)
4) Shutter actuation count
5) CF or SD card benchmark tests for read/write speeds


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## tpatana (Apr 5, 2015)

msowsun said:


> 3) Option to always default to the CF card (avoids accidentally switching to the SD card when you pull the CF card)



Probably most people know, but just in case I'll mention again:

if you have both cards in, the CF slows down. So if you are shooting something with high fps (sports etc.), having SD card in will make you hit buffer limit more often compared to not having SD card in. And that's even if you're not writing anything on it, just having it inserted is enough.

For that reason alone, I've never had SD card in the camera.


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## East Wind Photography (Apr 5, 2015)

tpatana said:


> msowsun said:
> 
> 
> > 3) Option to always default to the CF card (avoids accidentally switching to the SD card when you pull the CF card)
> ...



Interesting. I see no speed degradation unless I am writing to it simultaneously. As long is its set to fail over when the cf card is full , there is no loss in buffer rate.


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## tpatana (Apr 5, 2015)

East Wind Photography said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > msowsun said:
> ...



Interesting indeed. At least that's how it used to be. If that (rather stupid) feature was fixed on FW updates, that's good news.

Still not going to use SD in there.


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## DominoDude (Apr 14, 2015)

Slight update:

Last weeks I've been going back to running my 7D completely without ML, but still running on the same FW (the 2.0.3 version). The complete unresponsiveness haven't reared its ugly head again since the removal of ML. All CF cards behave ok, all buttons are working, and the awakening after stand-by is back to blistering speeds.


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## mackguyver (Apr 14, 2015)

I missed that discussion about the CF+SD card. I've done speed tests and unless you're writing to both simultaneously, there's no slowdown whatsoever with an SD card inserted.

Also, thanks for the update, DominoDude.


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## mackguyver (Apr 14, 2015)

Then there's this - not a good thing if you intend to use your DSLR for paid work. Marsu et al, sorry, but this one is going to hurt their reputation:

http://petapixel.com/2015/04/14/magic-lantern-pulled-unfunny-april-fools-prank-that-put-blue-screen-of-death-on-dslrs/#more-163244


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## Don Haines (Apr 14, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> Then there's this - not a good thing if you intent to use your DSLR for paid work. Marsu et al, sorry, but this one is going to hurt their reputation:
> 
> http://petapixel.com/2015/04/14/magic-lantern-pulled-unfunny-april-fools-prank-that-put-blue-screen-of-death-on-dslrs/#more-163244


I heard about that one..... This is why if you need to have a working camera, you avoid anyone who would do such a stupid thing. For me, that is the death of Magic Lantern.... I would not touch it now.


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## Frodo (Apr 14, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> I heard about that one..... This is why if you need to have a working camera, you avoid anyone who would do such a stupid thing. For me, that is the death of Magic Lantern.... I would not touch it now.


I've been siting on the fence with ML, but now I have jumped off - I won't touch it.
And this comes from someone who is right into funny April 1st jokes.


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## meywd (Apr 14, 2015)

Frodo said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > I heard about that one..... This is why if you need to have a working camera, you avoid anyone who would do such a stupid thing. For me, that is the death of Magic Lantern.... I would not touch it now.
> ...



I agree that April 1st jokes are stupid and waste people time, i didn't use my camera at that time and so it didn't happen to me, but since I am a developer and a windows user i couldn't stop my self from laughing ;D

Anyway as the devs responded, having a backup memory card without ML is recommended if you depend on the camera for professional work, not because ML is not safe, but because S___ happens.

as for the loading time delays, I didn't notice it while using the 600D, and tested with the 5D3 and couldn't see any delay, it didn't even take a second between turning it on and taking a photo.


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## East Wind Photography (Apr 15, 2015)

I personally am not swayed by the joke. ML is still the best option to expand a supported stock camera. I always keep a backup non-ML camera just because as another reader pointed out, s___ happens. Fortunately I've never had a situation where ML has failed to deliver what I completely intended. I currently use it on a 5diii and an M. I have used it on a 60d for time lapse and had no issues.

I still will use it on my 5d3 as the single most useful feature for me is dual ISO. It has saved the day on a number of wildlife excursions and sports events where lighting was not optimal. I believe those that are trashing it before trying it, likely would never use it regardless.

I have full trust in using it and I'm sure after this that Alex won't do that stunt again.


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## tpatana (Apr 15, 2015)

Just timed the bootup on 5D3-ML.

From power off, flip the power switch and half-press shutter. ~2.5 seconds until anything active on viewfinder (af starts).

From sleep,half-press shutter. ~2.5 seconds to AF start.

Wasn't non-ML something like 0.2 seconds on those?


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## Marsu42 (Apr 15, 2015)

tpatana said:


> From power off, flip the power switch and half-press shutter. ~2.5 seconds until anything active on viewfinder (af starts).



Ugh, that's strange - maybe a problem with the Canon fw trying to load ML from either cf or sd. My 6d is *way* faster with ML installed, 2.5s is really tiresome. I suggest to ask on the ML forum if there's trick to speed this up on 5d3: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11017.0

Out of interest: Does this time change...
* when you're using an empty card (i.e. not pictures)?
* with how many modules you load?


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## East Wind Photography (Apr 15, 2015)

tpatana said:


> Just timed the bootup on 5D3-ML.
> 
> From power off, flip the power switch and half-press shutter. ~2.5 seconds until anything active on viewfinder (af starts).
> 
> ...



I looked onto this a while back and it has to do with the way ML attaches itself into memory. In order to use ML, the camera has to use the boot from card setting which is "reserved" for canon bench testing. Speed was not a priority at Canon for such testing modes. Pulling the memory card does not "fix" it. You must do a firmware uninstall to remove the boot flag. The issue is with the Canon firmware and not ML (proven by removing the ML card and software leaving only the boot flag setting and still having the delay).

A workaround that I use is to lengthen the sleep timeout to a sufficiently large number. Uses more battery (slightly) and it's a trade off. In fact the boot and wake delay is the ONLY trade off with using it in the 5DIII. 

I deal with the power on delay and have mitigated the sleep delay by increasing the sleep timeout.


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## mackguyver (Apr 15, 2015)

East Wind Photography said:


> I believe those that are trashing it before trying it, likely would never use it regardless.


I don't think anyone is trashing it, or at least I'm not. I have a lot of respect for Alex and everyone else who has worked hard to improve the firmware of Canon DSLRs. ML has really pushed the capabilities and I believe that Canon's support (in terms of not voiding warranties) shows that they respect the work and the caution that goes into making sure it doesn't blow up cameras.

On the other hand, I think it depends on the work you do and whether the trade offs are or aren't a big deal to you.


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## tpatana (Apr 15, 2015)

Yes, I think East Wind is correct about the boot time, that's my understanding too. Nothing really can be done there I guess, without reflashing the whole camera into ML.

One feature I wish they could add is more flexible frame rate for video. I think I was able to go ~70fps at best, but I'd love option to lower resolution while increasing fps, e.g. 720p240 or such.


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## Marsu42 (Apr 16, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> Then there's this - not a good thing if you intend to use your DSLR for paid work. Marsu et al, sorry, but this one is going to hurt their reputation



I know, I saw the general idea it in the source commits and of course disabled it on my personal build, I didn't even look what it did exactly. Imho there's good and bad about it. The bad obviously is that people lost shots, but the good news is that there's no way 'round making clear what ML is or isn't ... basically I agree with http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=14779.msg143039#msg143039

* as for ML's target audience: "They" cannot cope with expectations anyway, because "they" is "he" and as it's developed by a single person with some expert help on video and some less expert help on specific cameras. I would never recommend running ML for critical pro work like a wedding (and I've never written as such), even though I find it rock stable. If you want pro, buy pro. This is an amateur project to un-cripple the budget to mid-range Canon cameras, they don't even accept donations.

* As for "sorry for me": That's just it, I'm sorry for everyone not using ML because it has features that really make a difference (dual_iso, raw histogram, un-broken auto iso, the lot). It's not like I gain anything from promoting it, actually that's the very reason I stopped contributing source code as it's more hassle than fun.

I just hope the bad rep won't drive ML into stubbornness as so many oss projects who adopt a "take it or leave it" stance and are too quick to say "if you don't contribute (source or bug reports), you have no say in this". But the main dev is a really nice guy, he's doing it for personal fun, and ML's site is very clear on what to expect or not.


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## mackguyver (Apr 16, 2015)

Marsu, as I said a few posts above, I have nothing but respect for Alex and what he and the rest of the community are doing. I mean no disrespect to you, ML or anyone else, and I like April Fool's jokes, but I thought that going a bit too far. That's just my opinion.


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## Valvebounce (Apr 17, 2015)

Hi Folks. 
It seems pretty dumb to do the April Fools Joke, yes we all know ML is free, excellent, and NOT for mission critical work! But when is it not mission critical, ok we'll discount weddings and other professional uses, but what about shooting the relatives 81st birthday, ok they may not be here for the 82nd so I can't use it for that, Jimmy's 10th, that should be ok but he might step in front of a bus larking about on the way home from school, better not use it for that, oh well that landscape but what if the sun and clouds never look like Jesus again, ok when can I use it without worrying that some other joke will cause me to miss a shot?

Cheers, Graham.


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## Marsu42 (Apr 17, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> Marsu, as I said a few posts above, I have nothing but respect for Alex and what he and the rest of the community are doing. I mean no disrespect to you, ML or anyone else, and I like April Fool's jokes, but I thought that going a bit too far. That's just my opinion.



I didn't think you meant any disrespect to anyone! And, as the fact shows that he took the joke back asap, shows that he himself had doubts.

I just wrote the above yadayada because I'd think such occurrences are quickly taken out of context and people might confuse ML with a commercial software - often posts appear as if ML would be desperately try to sell their "hack" to a reluctant Canon crowd and they'd have the convince the users of its worth... but it's the other way 'round.


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## mackguyver (Apr 17, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> people might confuse ML with a commercial software


That's probably true as ML has come so far and does so much.


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