# Canon EOS 90D Specification List [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 14, 2019)

> Specification lists have become a rare thing for the rumor mill if an announcement isn’t imminent, so we tend to take most of them with a huge grain of salt.
> We’ve been sent a few suggested specification lists for the Canon EOS 80D replacement, one we’re calling the EOS 90D to keep things easy. There has been some talk that this will be the last of the higher-end APS-C DSLRs to come from Canon. While we cannot confirm this to be true, I think the writing is on the wall.
> *Canon EOS 90D Specifications: *(Rumored)
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## brodbeckleon (May 14, 2019)

Hopefully no crop at 4K
And 120p in Full HD would be also sweet


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## jeffa4444 (May 14, 2019)

The 7D should have been the priority.


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## Sharlin (May 14, 2019)

Those specs look a bit too good to be true. It would be a fairly large step up from the 80D (even if not that interesting an offering for current 7D2 users). The dual card slots and processors I’m especially dubious of, given the price bracket. But I guess even Canon could surprise us every once in a while.

Edit: Missed the [email protected]! I believe it when I see it.


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## snoke (May 14, 2019)

What missing for 7D Mark II upgrade?


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## victorshikhman (May 14, 2019)

Watch the 90D outsell the RP and R put together. Canon won't kill a market segment they sell so many units in. The R seems like a great camera, but it's $2k body only. The RP is crippled and with one decent RF lens is $2k+. Meanwhile, the 90D will be available with a decent selection of cheap EFS lenses, that many already have. For many, it will get the job done at a much lower price point.


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## criscokkat (May 14, 2019)

It's not a step up from the 7dII but it is a step sideways. You lose the weatherproofing and joystick but gain a flippy screen and 60% more megapixels for greater cropping ability. The FPS doesn't change but I'm guessing with improvements in the processor the focusing probably is at least equivalent to the current 7dII and might even have a few dual cross types. I'd also strongly suspect that if you flip out the screen you will have the same focusing capabilities the R has, with edge to edge focusing capabilities and eye tracking.


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## Antono Refa (May 14, 2019)

As tests show the RP's UHS II slot is faster than CF, it's high time Canon replaced the 2nd CF slot with SD.


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## Cryve (May 14, 2019)

Id be statisfied with that, as long as there is improvememt in the focusing department.
Maybe they will include a joystick. I hope so at least

If thats really the price than thats a lot of camera for the price. Cant really compain at that price point and would fit in the upgrade structure : pay 100 more and get the rp.


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## -pekr- (May 14, 2019)

jeffa4444 said:


> The 7D should have been the priority.



This one already sounds more like the 7D replacement, than the 80D one.


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## PRINZMETAL (May 14, 2019)

Great tracking which we have no idea from the specification.


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## jolyonralph (May 14, 2019)

Antono Refa said:


> As tests show the RP's UHS II slot is faster than CF, it's high time Canon replaced the 2nd CF slot with SD.



I don't think anyone expects a new body to be launched in 2019 with an old Compact Flash card slot. CFast maybe, but not plain CF.


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## Cryve (May 14, 2019)

As far as i know canon always Positionen their full frame cameras as a step up from aps-c in the upgrade path. For e.g. the 6d was more expensive than the 7d, and so on.

Now with the canon rp beeing the cheapest full frame at 1500 dollars i think its plausible, that canon told their engineers to design the "best" aps-c cam for a 1400 dollar price point (just below the canon rp).


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## EduPortas (May 14, 2019)

So we lose 7D ruggedness and ergonomics but gain image quality and some consumer features.

This one is going to be one hard tradeoff.


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## Josh Leavitt (May 14, 2019)

I would assume the 45 point PDAF module would be the same as the 80D and 6D II - all cross type. It would likely just be more usable on an APS-C sensor since the points will cover most of the frame. Those listed specs actually seem believable. I'm hoping Canon isn't afraid of adding a second card slot to a top-tier APS-C camera body, and it's probable that they will if a 7D III isn't coming. Dual DIGIC 8 processors would be hugely beneficial for sport/action scenarios; I can't imagine there would be a buffer limit for JPEGs even at 32.5MP with that kind of processing power available.


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## nostrovia (May 14, 2019)

If this is real and there is a joystick to select AF points, my dreams up upgrading to full frame will be put on hold even longer.


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## haggie (May 14, 2019)

snoke said:


> What missing for 7D Mark II upgrade?





-pekr- said:


> This one already sounds more like the 7D replacement, than the 80D one.



Based on this list, to qualify even as a potential replacement for the 7D Mk II some features are lacking.

AF-system
The 7D Mk II has 65 AF-points: 1 high-precision dual cross-type AF point and the rest are still cross-type points.
According to this list the “90D” will only have 45 AF-point. That is considerably less.
Also: no mention of the type of AF-points means that it can be less cross-type AF-points (although that may be unlikely).

More important is the customization that the 7D Mk II has - and that any action camera: the range of AF Areas that can be selected, such as _Single Point Spot AF_, _Single Point AF_, _4-point AF Point Expansion_, _8-point AF Point Expansion_, _Zone AF_, and _Automatic AF Point Selection_, _Large Zone AF_. This, together with the _AF Area Select Lever_ makes it fast and easy to change the AF Area as you shoot. Again, a feature required to cope with changing conditions during action photography. It is very unlikely that the “90D” will get that – why else call it “90D” and not “7D Mk III”.

Controls and Ergonomics
Perhaps a bit less important, but because it is called “90D”, the size of the body will no doubt more resemble the 80D than the 7D Mk II. Ergonomics are important for an action camera, to be able to make available the controls and displays in such a way that that can easily be operated and/or seen. That requires enough room, and therefore ‘size matters’ also here.

Note:
It is quite possible that the “90D” will get dual DIGIC 8 processors. But if this potential is not used to improve on the ability to track and predict moving objects, than this feature has no meaning for action photographers. Especially this is an area where improvements over the 7D Mk II were hoped for/expected.


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## tron (May 14, 2019)

Well let's hope for a 7DIII that also includes GPS (just like 7DII), supports both CF and SD slots and 65 AF points with f/8 support for most of them. 12fps and a 24 to 28 Mpixel sensor with improved high ISO performance would be more than enough. Also 10 * 32.5 = 325 and 12 * 28 = 336 mpixel per sec so it's doable with a dual Digic 8. What makes me worry is that the dual DIGIC and the dual cards make it a top model so will we also get a 7DIII?


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## haggie (May 14, 2019)

tron said:


> Well let's hope for a 7DIII that also includes GPS (just like 7DII), supports both CF and SD slots and 65 AF points with f/8 support for most of them. 12fps and a 24 to 28 Mpixel sensor with improved high ISO performance would be more than enough. Also 10 * 32.5 = 325 and 12 * 28 = 336 mpixel per sec so it's doable with a dual Digic 8. What makes me worry is that the dual DIGIC and the dual cards make it a top model so will we also get a 7DIII?



I think that the last months have shown that the "7D Mk III" is unlikely.

I think this spec list for a "90D" implies that there will be no "7D Mk III" .
Unless Canon does something very un-Canon-like and come with a revolutionary set of improvements in the "7D Mk III" as opposed to the usual incremental improvements........


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## tarjei99 (May 14, 2019)

snoke said:


> What missing for 7D Mark II upgrade?


Not enough AF points. The 7D3 would need quite a lot more of them and a lot more of the cross type.


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## Cryve (May 14, 2019)

tarjei99 said:


> Not enough AF points. The 7D3 would need quite a lot more of them and a lot more of the cross type.


this makes this spec list a little bit unbelievable, because why would they offer 10fps if their focusing system cant really keep up at that pace. seems counterproductive.


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## amorse (May 14, 2019)

Antono Refa said:


> As tests show the RP's UHS II slot is faster than CF, it's high time Canon replaced the 2nd CF slot with SD.


How timely - I just damaged my CF slot and had to get it repaired. Something got into the slot when I had the card out and when I tried to put the card back in I bent a number of pins - it took almost no force to do the damage. No doubt this is entirely my fault, but I'm ready for a more robust option and willing to replace my memory to do it.


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## Adrianf (May 14, 2019)

"I need more pixels", said no 7D2 owner, ever!


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## Sharlin (May 14, 2019)

Cryve said:


> this makes this spec list a little bit unbelievable, because why would they offer 10fps if their focusing system cant really keep up at that pace. seems counterproductive.



Tell that to the 1D Mark III… Or the original 7D, even. The number of AF points doesn't have that much to do with how well the focusing system "can keep up".


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## Trey T (May 14, 2019)

W/o the Quick Control Dial, it's a deal-breaker for me. I hope the LCD is not articulating


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## Architect1776 (May 14, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Looks like a big step up from the 80D and actually surpasses the vaunted D500 in many major aspects unless anyone gives a darn about number of AF points. 
It surpasses the 7D MII by quite a bit and looks like 7D type of specs with dual Digic and dual slots as well as 10FPS especially with the high res sensor.


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## Architect1776 (May 14, 2019)

tarjei99 said:


> Not enough AF points. The 7D3 would need quite a lot more of them and a lot more of the cross type.



What is the big deal about more AF points?


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## Sharlin (May 14, 2019)

Trey T said:


> W/o the Quick Control Dial, it's a deal-breaker for me. I hope the LCD is not articulating



What? The x0D series has always had a QCD.


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## haggie (May 14, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> Looks like a big step up from the 80D and actually surpasses the vaunted D500 in many major aspects ...



No it does not.



Architect1776 said:


> ... unless anyone gives a darn about number of AF points.



For anybody that needs an action camera with (1) fast initial acquisation, (2) good tracking of erratically moving subjects and (3) still accomplish this under less-than-ideal circumstances, the number of AF-points really matters. And it also matters that they are all cross-type. And it also matters at what apertures (max and min) they still produce good outputs, i.e. that make a noticeable difference for firmware to work with.



Architect1776 said:


> It surpasses the 7D MII by quite a bit ... .



No it does not.


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## csibra (May 14, 2019)

Dual card slot on a x0D and not on EOS R? No way.


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## BrightTiger (May 14, 2019)

tarjei99 said:


> Not enough AF points. The 7D3 would need quite a lot more of them and a lot more of the cross type.


Given that this is supposed to be a merge with the 80D/90D, then a slight dumbing down is to be expected. Reasonable from a 2015 A.D. perspective. Not so hot in 2019. The M5 Mk II might have to be the savior.


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## YnR (May 14, 2019)

As much as I’d like to believe it, seems too far fetched. This I’ll believe when I see it.


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## SouthpawSD (May 14, 2019)

If the 120fps/1080 turns out true, I'll pre-order.


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## melgross (May 14, 2019)

With all this cry about more focus points, I’d like to bet that most buyers don’t need them, because they’re not shooting “action”. Canon is likely aware of who is buying their products. They seem to be better at this than other companies, which is why they’re on top. Without knowing sales numbers of the 7D vs the 80D, we can only speculate according to what we think is right, but it might not be.


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## magarity (May 14, 2019)

I think the model numbers are going to be recycled more, "80D ii" is more likely than "90D" because otherwise they're about to run out of increment-by-ten numbers.


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## criscokkat (May 14, 2019)

magarity said:


> I think the model numbers are going to be recycled more, "80D ii" is more likely than "90D" because otherwise they're about to run out of increment-by-ten numbers.


90D is fine if they expect it to be the last DSLR version released.


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## unfocused (May 14, 2019)

My two cents:

Beware of CR1 rumors.

If this is correct, it does leave little room for a 7DIII, so if it comes to pass, I will expect there won't be a 7DIII. (Insert Sad Face Emoji here)

Combining the two lines was always going to present a problem for Canon, since 80D users won't want to give up the articulated screen and 7DII users don't want to give up controls that can't fit on a body with an articulated screen. I'm hoping that Canon does find a way to retain at least some of those controls.

More fps is always nice, but 10 is certainly adequate (even though it feels slow after using a 1DxII). 

Autofocus point quantity is less important than quality of the autofocus system. A stop backward will be a deal breaker for me. Point spread is also more important than quantity of points.

Price point is very attractive, but that makes me worried about what Canon will cut from the 7D. 

I'm not that worried about a slight drop in weather sealing. I don't push my look with the cameras anyway and use a cover in bad weather. 

For my wife, who shoot with the 80D, this will be a great step up, especially with the additional fps and added resolution. For me, a step down from the 7D and might make me just stick to the 5D and 1D and keep using the 7D II in good light.

Now, in my fantasy world, this would mean a 7DIII with Cfast and SD slots, 14 fps, state of the art autofocus, 28mp sensor, etc. etc., but that is only a fantasy.


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## padam (May 14, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Those specs look a bit too good to be true. It would be a fairly large step up from the 80D (even if not that interesting an offering for current 7D2 users). The dual card slots and processors I’m especially dubious of, given the price bracket. But I guess even Canon could surprise us every once in a while.


Let's not forget that the price bracket is right in line with the tougher D500 and the 7D Mark II is also available for even less and it will probably decrease further, so it makes sense to equip it with dual card slots (there is also sufficient space for it on a DSLR)


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## unfocused (May 14, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> 90D is fine if they expect it to be the last DSLR version released.


They can always have the 90Dx and then 90DxII etc.


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## melgross (May 14, 2019)

magarity said:


> I think the model numbers are going to be recycled more, "80D ii" is more likely than "90D" because otherwise they're about to run out of increment-by-ten numbers.


I don’t see the problem. They can, at least go to 100. Then it could be either 110, 120, etc., or 200, 300, etc.

Nikon has had no problems with 800, 810 and 850. It’s just a number.


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## MiJax (May 14, 2019)

csibra said:


> Dual card slot on a x0D and not on EOS R? No way.



Very true, but the rest of these specs on anything other than a XXD is absurd. Hopefully these specs are WAY OFF the mark. Maybe these reflect a 77D replacement and a combined XXD and 7D amalgamation will follow... at least that's the hope.


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## melgross (May 14, 2019)

unfocused said:


> My two cents:
> 
> Beware of CR1 rumors.
> 
> ...


The question is what is selling. If the 7D line is fading more quickly than the 80D line, then Canon may decide to abandon the 7D. That would make sense. A few years ago, total DSLR sales, in the industry, were 13 million. It’s now much less, and continuing to shrink.

The fewer sales, the fewer models. Something has to go. It will be the least sustainable lines. Obviously, Canon is transitioning over to mirrorless full frame. They want to pull DSLR users to that, whether they are FF users, or APS-C users. APS-C is shrinking more than FF is, so that makes sense too.

Only Canon knows where their sales are in the various models, and where they seem to be going. They also have some idea as to which users are moving to which R body. And, they have at least one new R body coming out before too long, as well as more lenses.


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## yeahright (May 14, 2019)

What is the deal with using the joystick for AF point selection anyway? I hardly ever use it on the 5D4, for me it's much faster using the two wheels with thumb and index finger for horizontal and vertical shift of the AF point instead ...


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## Adelino (May 14, 2019)

magarity said:


> I think the model numbers are going to be recycled more, "80D ii" is more likely than "90D" because otherwise they're about to run out of increment-by-ten numbers.


This could be the final run of APS-C DSLRs though. Maybe the ultimate. (boo hoo )


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## Hector1970 (May 14, 2019)

Adelino said:


> This could be the final run of APS-C DSLRs though. Maybe the ultimate. (boo hoo )


I’d prefer 24MP with more FPS. ISO performance will be interesting. The 7DII wasn’t great at high ISO even at the time it came out. Focusing system too. It might well the ultimate APS-C mirrored from Canon.


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## degos (May 14, 2019)

yeahright said:


> What is the deal with using the joystick for AF point selection anyway?



Because most people using the AF point selection are also using at a minimum Av or Tv and likely M mode, so the dial and control wheel are already allocated to exposure controls ( shutter and aperture respectively ).

I wouldn't want to cognitive load of trying to remember whether the wheel was setting aperture or focus point when following an aeroplane from shadow into light and desperately trying to stop-down...


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## Durf (May 14, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> This one already sounds more like the 7D replacement, than the 80D one.


 I was thinking the same thing, especially if the rumors are true that the 7D Series is history. They could beef up to a 65 point focus system and do a little better weather sealing and perhaps pop a joy stick in it and presto...a 7D3 that's called a 90D and that actually performs quite well!
If the 90D out performs my 80D, especially with better ISO capability and handing/focusing with long lenses, I'll likely buy it....


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## slclick (May 14, 2019)

yeahright said:


> What is the deal with using the joystick for AF point selection anyway? I hardly ever use it on the 5D4, for me it's much faster using the two wheels with thumb and index finger for horizontal and vertical shift of the AF point instead ...


There's a saying...'To each their own'. There is also market research, which Canon has done more than a smidge of. I personally don't like the shape of the camera strap lugs but that's not a reason to think a company should change them. Joysticks are well known to be loved and used to great advantage.


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## tarjei99 (May 14, 2019)

BrightTiger said:


> Given that this is supposed to be a merge with the 80D/90D, then a slight dumbing down is to be expected. Reasonable from a 2015 A.D. perspective. Not so hot in 2019. The M5 Mk II might have to be the savior.



It is not a light dumbing down. It is a disaster. Remember the EOS R. Canon needs to step up to be taken serious with their DSLR line.

I for one wants more coverage in order to get more flexibility when photographing. And I need a lot faster change of active AF point.


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## EduPortas (May 14, 2019)

yeahright said:


> ...it's much faster using the two wheels with thumb and index finger for horizontal and vertical shift of the AF point instead ...



Yes. I thought I was the only one using this method. You can do this with the 7DM2 in full manual
thanks to the dedicated focus selection collar. It's very fast and easy to learn.


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## slclick (May 14, 2019)

It's a rumor that the 7D line and XXD line will merge. Furthermore, the info on this thread is a CR1. Take it for what it is or go insane, your call. Hate to see some of you people in an emergency.


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## melgross (May 14, 2019)

tarjei99 said:


> It is not a light dumbing down. It is a disaster. Remember the EOS R. Canon needs to step up to be taken serious with their DSLR line.
> 
> I for one wants more coverage in order to get more flexibility when photographing. And I need a lot faster change of active AF point.


So the number one DSLR lines in the world aren’t being taken seriously? Since when?


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## BrightTiger (May 14, 2019)

tarjei99 said:


> It is not a light dumbing down. It is a disaster. Remember the EOS R. Canon needs to step up to be taken serious with their DSLR line.
> 
> I for one wants more coverage in order to get more flexibility when photographing. And I need a lot faster change of active AF point.


I don't disagree on having more AF points. I went to the M5 rather than the 80D and haven;t looked back. And I certainly am not going back to the future with the 90D. But disaster it's not. There's Sony. I'll see what the M5 II has but we all already know it's the Sony A7III with an MC11 adapter, don't we. And it's ok. Sony bodies and Canon lenses. If Canon can beat the A7III fine. Either way, it's all good when you don't give in to brand fan boyism.


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## Sharlin (May 14, 2019)

melgross said:


> I don’t see the problem. They can, at least go to 100. Then it could be either 110, 120, etc., or 200, 300, etc.



The problem is 100D is already in use (called SL1 in one part of the world). As are 200D and 300D.


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## magarity (May 14, 2019)

melgross said:


> I don’t see the problem. They can, at least go to 100. Then it could be either 110, 120, etc., or 200, 300, etc.
> 
> Nikon has had no problems with 800, 810 and 850. It’s just a number.


But 100, 200, 300, etc have already been used.


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## preppyak (May 14, 2019)

> 4K video at 24/25, 30 and 60fps (No word on DPAF in 4K recording)


Im not sure I buy 4k60 existing in the DSLR line at only the 1DXII and 90D level. Unless they are gonna put out a 5D upgrade to 60fps, just seems counter to how Canon does segmentation. I could believe that the SL3 and xxxD cameras get 4k/24 or 30, and the 90D got 4k/60 if its something they had already implemented elsewhere. Like if the R line had it.

Feels like the rumors for this camera have been all over the place for the last year. Doubt we're seeing it until Q3 at the earliest.


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## ykn123 (May 14, 2019)

Well, does it skips the AA filter ? (hopefully)
45 AF points are more than i need - i never ever use automatic AF point selection anyway, just one point with 4 surounding helper points - with 10fps this is more than enough for me to use it as a baby 1DX. Hopefully the body is small (like a D7500) but does allow for a grip. Joystick would be great ! Hopefully it also adds eye AF - by the way, it would be great to get this added to some DSLRs from Canon by firmware update....


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## tron (May 14, 2019)

yeahright said:


> What is the deal with using the joystick for AF point selection anyway? I hardly ever use it on the 5D4, for me it's much faster using the two wheels with thumb and index finger for horizontal and vertical shift of the AF point instead ...


You obviously are not in a hurry when you shoot with 5D4! Do you shoot birds?
I use one wheel to choose speed, one to choose aperture (Using Manual with auto iso) and the joystic to chose AF points. Even with portrait shooting joystic helps a lot. Of course YMMV.


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## Trey T (May 14, 2019)

Durf said:


> I was thinking the same thing, especially if the rumors are true that the 7D Series is history. They could beef up to a 65 point focus system and do a little better weather sealing and perhaps pop a joy stick in it and presto...a 7D3 that's called a 90D and that actually performs quite well!
> If the 90D out performs my 80D, especially with better ISO capability and handing/focusing with long lenses, I'll likely buy it....


A 7D replacement will require that joy stick you said, Quick Control Dial (regular size, not mini), and non-articulating LCD. Otherwise it’s a 80D mark II.


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## justaCanonuser (May 14, 2019)

jeffa4444 said:


> The 7D should have been the priority.


Yeah but if a 90D hits the market it indicates that Canon is not yet finished with mirror slappers. I'd love to have a substantially improved 7D3, that means, I'd expect Canon to improve the 7D2's mediocre phase AF system. The 7D's DP AF in live view is already nice, but the interface could be improved (touch screen, tilt screen).


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## masterpix (May 14, 2019)

snoke said:


> What missing for 7D Mark II upgrade?


The intention to build it I think, there is everything ready for a 7D mark3, but they need to decide to make it. that is all missing I think/


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## DreDaze (May 14, 2019)

if those were the specs, i'd buy it right now...even if this isn't a replacement for the 7DII, there is no way that they release another DSLR without a flip screen


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## yeahright (May 14, 2019)

degos said:


> Because most people using the AF point selection are also using at a minimum Av or Tv and likely M mode, so the dial and control wheel are already allocated to exposure controls ( shutter and aperture respectively ).
> 
> I wouldn't want to cognitive load of trying to remember whether the wheel was setting aperture or focus point when following an aeroplane from shadow into light and desperately trying to stop-down...


I am usually in Av mode (mostly take pictures of people rather than action), and have the front wheel set to change aperture. To change the focus point (I almost always use single point AF) I press the AF point selector button first, then quickly move the AF point using front and/or back wheels. For me, this is still faster than using the joystick, which I need to press once for every AF point move. So going from the rightmost to the leftmost AF point in the 5D4 takes 10 clicks using the joystick, but only one press on the AF point selector button and a quick rotation of the wheel.


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## Aussie shooter (May 14, 2019)

Not sure how i feel about this. It is certainly not a good enough camera to upgrade from my 7d2. Lacking the build quality, joystick and af point selection lever, fewer af points, small wheel and (I would assume a smaller body) it would not be the 'professional' apsc body that a 7series is.it would be an awesome upgrade however from an 80d and even would have a few things(primarily the upgraded sensor) that a 7d2 user would like.


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## yeahright (May 14, 2019)

tron said:


> You obviously are not in a hurry when you shoot with 5D4! Do you shoot birds?
> I use one wheel to choose speed, one to choose aperture (Using Manual with auto iso) and the joystic to chose AF points. Even with portrait shooting joystic helps a lot. Of course YMMV.


No, I don't shoot birds, nor do I frequently shoot in rapidly changing lighting conditions. Therefore exposure parameters get changed much less frequently than AF points (which I move almost always between shots). And that's why I prefer to quickly change the AF point using the wheels instead of the joystick, at the cost of one extra press of the AF point selector button, and the need to set aperture and/or speed before AF point selection. I don't think I could manage to consciously set all three - aperture, speed, and AF point - simultaneously anyway.


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## Durf (May 15, 2019)

Trey T said:


> A 7D replacement will require that joy stick you said, Quick Control Dial (regular size, not mini), and non-articulating LCD. Otherwise it’s a 80D mark II.



Dual card slots in an "80D Mark II" so to speak is a hint towards a 7D2 replacement type of camera. The 90D may be really the 7D Mark II replacement and have all the bells and whistles of the 7D2 and then some.


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## eninja (May 15, 2019)

victorshikhman said:


> Watch the 90D outsell the RP and R put together. Canon won't kill a market segment they sell so many units in. The R seems like a great camera, but it's $2k body only. The RP is crippled and with one decent RF lens is $2k+. Meanwhile, the 90D will be available with a decent selection of cheap EFS lenses, that many already have. For many, it will get the job done at a much lower price point.


Have you try to shoot full frame? image quality difference is night and day. compare to price difference.


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## sharathc47 (May 15, 2019)

4k 60p


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## slclick (May 15, 2019)

Can these people please use a different word than 'crippled' to describe a body which is not top tier? Must they all be top tier? Humans...what are you going to do. SMH


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## Marximusprime (May 15, 2019)

If these are correct, I may look into buying one, especially if it uses the LPE6(N). I've had my 7D II for quite a while (more than two years, which is a long time for me in GASland), and it'd be nice to get some upgrades, like the articulating screen. 10 FPS is sufficient for me, and I almost never use all 65 points, so I don't mind that, either. I was thinking about the Sony A7000, if it ever comes out (I already have the A7 III and A6400), but this might be my final DSLR, as opposed to getting another mirrorless body. I still prefer DSLRs for wildlife, and the 7D II is the last DSLR I own.


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## goldenhusky (May 15, 2019)

People asking for 4k 60p, full frame 4k, 1080p 120fps, etc... please remember we are talking about Canon here. If Canon gives center cropped 4k30p with DPAF, and a decent file format unlike MJPEG consider that as generous from Canon. Dual Digic does not sound like Canon at all at this price point. If this sensor has as much DR as 80d sensor consider all people who buys this camera lucky. If it gets dual SD card one will be UHS-II and other will be UHS-1. Anything more consider that as bonus.


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## fox40phil (May 15, 2019)

How about just 24-26MP, 12-14FPS, wide AF point-grid, [email protected] with a sweet codec. Dual card. 
Better noise & dynamic range. thats it.... I think Canon can do something like that...


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## digigal (May 15, 2019)

My current 7DMII has 386,000 clicks on it and is rated for 200,000. I've got some big trips in the next 6 mo--puffins and sea birds off Scotland, then on to Grimsey Is off Iceland for more of the same, brown bears in Alaska, and finally ending the year in South Georgia and the Falklands for more penguins and the birds of the Southern Seas. I bought the R for my wide angle/landscape camera but I've been hamstrung by Canon over what to do about my crop sensor wildlife camera. Last week I finally gave up and bought a new gray market 7DMII to get me through the rest of the year until I see what happens with Canon over the next 6 mo to year. The couple who are leading the Bear shoot have been life long Canon shooters and multiple BBC/Nature Best winners and in the last several months switched to the Olympus OMD EM MIX. Will be interesting to check out their systems this summer. I love Canon's system but looks like they are abandoning the crop sensor wildlife market.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 15, 2019)

digigal said:


> My current 7DMII has 386,000 clicks on it and is rated for 200,000. I've got some big trips in the next 6 mo--puffins and sea birds off Scotland, then on to Grimsey Is off Iceland for more of the same, brown bears in Alaska, and finally ending the year in South Georgia and the Falklands for more penguins and the birds of the Southern Seas. I bought the R for my wide angle/landscape camera but I've been hamstrung by Canon over what to do about my crop sensor wildlife camera. Last week I finally gave up and bought a new gray market 7DMII to get me through the rest of the year until I see what happens with Canon over the next 6 mo to year. The couple who are leading the Bear shoot have been life long Canon shooters and multiple BBC/Nature Best winners and in the last several months switched to the Olympus OMD EM MIX. Will be interesting to check out their systems this summer. I love Canon's system but looks like they are abandoning the crop sensor wildlife market.


Canon won't abandon a market. But, the market is abandoning them. Sales of all cameras are dropping and expected to keep going south. The cost to produce and service a camera model is high and requires a minimum level of sales to sustain. Stocking spare parts, training service techs, it all adds up. Then, there is the consumer demand for mirrorless that competes for resources. That means the least profitable cameras may go away. If someone else wants to make them and lose money, they may pay the price, or maybe the market will support one manufacturer but not many. Its a unfortunate situation, but many buyers are happy with camera phones.

I had purchased almost every APS-C model over the years, but not a 7D MK II, The low light performance of APS C limits the 7D MK II to situations where there is more light than my 5D MK IV or EOS R requires, so I use FF. I do not need 10 FPS either, even with my high FPS 1 series cameras, I preferred to use 1 shot rather than sorting thru hundreds of rapid fire photos. I can see where some people need it, but I am part of the reason Canon is seeing slower sales of the 7D MK II.


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## Antono Refa (May 15, 2019)

goldenhusky said:


> If it gets dual SD card one will be UHS-II and other will be UHS-1. Anything more consider that as bonus.



I don't see this happening. Ordering, installing, and maintaining one type of slot is simpler and cheaper than two. E.g. Canon wouldn't want to delay fixing a camera because the UHS-x slot is broken, but the local shop doesn't have one in stock, or a technician mistakenly fixing a UHS-II slot by replacing it with a UHS-I slot.


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## digigal (May 15, 2019)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Canon won't abandon a market. But, the market is abandoning them. Sales of all cameras are dropping and expected to keep going south. The cost to produce and service a camera model is high and requires a minimum level of sales to sustain. Stocking spare parts, training service techs, it all adds up. Then, there is the consumer demand for mirrorless that competes for resources. That means the least profitable cameras may go away. If someone else wants to make them and lose money, they may pay the price, or maybe the market will support one manufacturer but not many. Its a unfortunate situation, but many buyers are happy with camera phones.
> 
> I had purchased almost every APS-C model over the years, but not a 7D MK II, The low light performance of APS C limits the 7D MK II to situations where there is more light than my 5D MK IV or EOS R requires, so I use FF. I do not need 10 FPS either, even with my high FPS 1 series cameras, I preferred to use 1 shot rather than sorting thru hundreds of rapid fire photos. I can see where some people need it, but I am part of the reason Canon is seeing slower sales of the 7D MK II.


I rarely use it for the speed but do use it for the reach effect so that I don't have to use as heavy equip when hand holding to get the same reach as full frame.


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## Sharlin (May 15, 2019)

Lol, didn’t even notice the 4K 60fps. If nothing else, that’s what makes this list just someone’s fantasy.


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## Chaitanya (May 15, 2019)

jolyonralph said:


> I don't think anyone expects a new body to be launched in 2019 with an old Compact Flash card slot. CFast maybe, but not plain CF.


Even CFast is a dead format going forwards just like CF.


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## JoFT (May 15, 2019)

I would not invest any cent in a DSLR anymore.... only mirrorless....

I hope this camera specs are coming in 2 forms: one "M"-body and one "R"-Body....


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## ozturert (May 15, 2019)

It looks a good upgrade to 80D. Dual Digic takes it closer to 7D level but I think the body will be like 80D, and 45 points make it obvious.
This is like a hybrid between 7D II and 80D.
By the way, 32.5MP is quite close to 8K dimensions  No that Canon will come up with 8K but they may be thinking to continue with this MP for a looong time


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## Memirsbrunnr (May 15, 2019)

melgross said:


> I don’t see the problem. They can, at least go to 100. Then it could be either 110, 120, etc., or 200, 300, etc.
> 
> Nikon has had no problems with 800, 810 and 850. It’s just a number.


100 and 200 series are already used for the small entry camera's in europe


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## bbb34 (May 15, 2019)

tron said:


> Do you shoot birds?



Please, don't shoot birds!


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## haggie (May 15, 2019)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I can see where some people need it, but I am part of the reason Canon is seeing slower sales of the 7D MK II.



That makes sense, from the viewpoint of what canon offers. But if the sales of the 7D Mk II is declining faster than Canon likes to see, I think there are more factors.

About a year ago I was heavily attacked by the usual members of this forum when I wrote about my observation that many people with a 7D or 7D Mk II that I spoke to, both in my home country and abroad, were thinking about switching to the D500. These facts apparently were not very welcome. I do not know about the people I spoke once when abroad, but I know since then 3 of my friends have sold their 7D / 7D Mk II and bought the Nikon D500.

That has given me the opportunity over the last 1 1/2 year to do a fait bit of comparisons (I wrote a bit about that in other posts I made), and the D500 is undeniably better than the 7D Mk II in 2 areas:
(1) AF-performance with erratically moving subjects and also with subjects that have less contrast (in particular in less than ideal lighing conditions);
(2) sensor performance where noticeably the Dynamic Range of the D500 allows post-processing where for instance skies that are bleak in the 7D Mk II still have realistic colors and saturation and also for instance the underside of wings or fuselage of aircraft show details with the D500 where the 7D Mk II does not (or you must push so hard that the Noise becomes too high).
What I mean to say is: there may also be other reasons that the sales of the 7D Mk II may not be what they were.

And there is one more thing with regards to sales of the 7D Mk II. A few months ago a representative of Canon was asked about the 7D Mk III in relation to competing the D500, and his answer was that Canon was perfectly happy with competing the D500 on price. That for me was an indication that Canon might not come up with a 7D Mk III at all. And I thought this for the same reasons that you mention: costs developing, building and maintaining a new high-end action camera are huge. With the end of the DSLR approaching it is not in Canon's business interest to take big risks there.


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## Jasonmc89 (May 15, 2019)

If correct these specs seem quite appealing! I just hope that it performs well in low light and has good DR having that many pixels.. There’s been talk about a new generation of canon sensors so who know, maybe IQ will be amazing! I’m not fussed about it having fewer focus points than the 7d2, providing it is accurate and performs well. I’m excited to see what happens!


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## Kit. (May 15, 2019)

preppyak said:


> Im not sure I buy 4k60 existing in the DSLR line at only the 1DXII and 90D level. Unless they are gonna put out a 5D upgrade to 60fps, just seems counter to how Canon does segmentation.


Personally, I don't believe in this spec, but I also don't see a problem for Canon to have 4k60 in 5D5 if the new Digic they supposedly put into 90D is able to handle it without overheating.


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## tron (May 15, 2019)

tarjei99 said:


> Not enough AF points. The 7D3 would need quite a lot more of them and a lot more of the cross type.


GPS, CF for speed and card reuse, quick control dial, joystic and .... did I mention the joystic?


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## HarrieR (May 15, 2019)

haggie said:


> Based on this list, to qualify even as a potential replacement for the 7D Mk II some features are lacking.
> 
> AF-system
> The 7D Mk II has 65 AF-points: 1 high-precision dual cross-type AF point and the rest are still cross-type points.
> ...


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## Jasonmc89 (May 15, 2019)

Don’t forget that it’s only called the “90D” on this forum..


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## HarrieR (May 15, 2019)

haggie said:


> Based on this list, to qualify even as a potential replacement for the 7D Mk II some features are lacking.
> 
> AF-system
> The 7D Mk II has 65 AF-points: 1 high-precision dual cross-type AF point and the rest are still cross-type points.
> ...



Lets not forget that the 80D -that I bought as a fall back cam- has 9 cross type AF points sensitive enough to work at f=8. It allows even for tracking birds with my 100-400mm mkII and the 1.4x extender installed. 
I found that and still find it an great improvement over my 7D mk II. And thanks to the touch screen, I haven't missed the joy stick for one second.
Apart from that the performance of the 24 mp sensor-chip isn't bad eighter!
It turns out that I use the 80D more than the 7D mkII, these days. But I agree, a 7D mk III or any other seriuous APS-C cam is way, way overdue.


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## tron (May 15, 2019)

haggie said:


> ...
> And there is one more thing with regards to sales of the 7D Mk II. A few months ago a representative of Canon was asked about the 7D Mk III in relation to competing the D500, and his answer was that Canon was perfectly happy with competing the D500 on price. That for me was an indication that Canon might not come up with a 7D Mk III at all. And I thought this for the same reasons that you mention: costs developing, building and maintaining a new high-end action camera are huge. With the end of the DSLR approaching it is not in Canon's business interest to take big risks there.


Cameras do not compete by themselves. A D500 with 200-500 or the new 500 5.6 PF lens


bbb34 said:


> Please, don't shoot birds!


Ha, ha, they keep being alive after shooting


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## tron (May 15, 2019)

tron said:


> Cameras do not compete by themselves. A D500 with 200-500 or the new 500 5.6 PF lens
> 
> Ha, ha, they keep being alive after shooting


My previous post about lenses was incomplete. But you got the meaning, Future birders/wild life photographers with no system yet they may choose Nikon due to these two lenses.


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## uri.raz (May 15, 2019)

tron said:


> CF for speed



The RP's UHS-II slot is faster than CF.


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## tron (May 15, 2019)

uri.raz said:


> The RP's UHS-II slot is faster than CF.


Yes I know that but the UHS-II are ridiculously expensive and not much much faster than CF UDMA 7 (150MB/sec write). So a speedy controller that could use almost all of the speed would achieve very close performance to current UHS-II implementations (Speed tests on EOS R showed a top of 170MB/sec). At the same time we could make use of existing CF cards. The second slot could be UHS-II so as to make the most of both worlds.


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## AlanF (May 15, 2019)

tron said:


> My previous post about lenses was incomplete. But you got the meaning, Future birders/wild life photographers with no system yet they may choose Nikon due to these two lenses.


The Nikon 200-500mm f/5.6 is not in the same league as the 100-400mm II. The Nikkor is very heavy and has slow AF. There are many reports from reliable sites that it is not very sharp at 500mm, and lenstip for example shows measurements confirming that it not impressive https://www.lenstip.com/544.4-Lens_review-Nikon_Nikkor_AF-S_200–500_mm_f_5.6E_ED_VR_Image_resolution.html
I blow hot and cold about the Nikon 500 f/5.6. I love its light weight and small size, and it is sharp and has fast AF. I wish my 400mm DO II were as light, and it's even heavier when extended by a 1.4xTC, and nearly twice the price. But, f/4 and 400mm is often more useful than f/5.6 and 500mm in low light and framing and a stop faster shutter speed. And I don't like going above f/5.6 with a high density sensor as you hit diffraction, and I can use the DO at 560mm and f/5.6.
So, for me, it's a new Canon body with sensor without an AA-filter that I want.


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## Mr Majestyk (May 15, 2019)

Gosh I hope they don't rehash the 80D's AF system. Time to get your act together Canon you're a distant 3rd or 4th these days.


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## tron (May 15, 2019)

AlanF said:


> The Nikon 200-500mm f/5.6 is not in the same league as the 100-400mm II. The Nikkor is very heavy and has slow AF. There are many reports from reliable sites that it is not very sharp at 500mm, and lenstip for example shows measurements confirming that it not impressive https://www.lenstip.com/544.4-Lens_review-Nikon_Nikkor_AF-S_200–500_mm_f_5.6E_ED_VR_Image_resolution.html
> I blow hot and cold about the Nikon 500 f/5.6. I love its light weight and small size, and it is sharp and has fast AF. I wish my 400mm DO II were as light, and it's even heavier when extended by a 1.4xTC, and nearly twice the price. But, f/4 and 400mm is often more useful than f/5.6 and 500mm in low light and framing and a stop faster shutter speed. And I don't like going above f/5.6 with a high density sensor as you hit diffraction, and I can use the DO at 560mm and f/5.6.
> So, for me, it's a new Canon body with sensor without an AA-filter that I want.


So you wouldn't be tempted with a 1.5Kg EF 500mm f/5.6 DO lens ?


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## Cryve (May 15, 2019)

tron said:


> So you wouldn't be tempted with a 1.5Kg EF 500mm f/5.6 DO lens ?


zooming capabilty is too important imo. Had too many situations where im camouflaged and cant move, but the animal comes too close or i want to change framing.
currently using the sigma 150-600 sport and i have a very nice copy of it thats 95% as sharp as the canon 100-400 ii.

but i would really apreciate a canon version thats lighter and has better stabilisation.


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## Jones (May 15, 2019)

My suggestion for Canon:

Take the body of a 7DII, put in all the latest stuff including the new 32.5MP sensor. Call it "9D" and sell it a price level between a 7DIII and a 90D. Both Upgraders and newcomers would love it, you would make tons of money and this 9D would be a really dignified closing of the APS-C DSLRS line of products before consumers and pros shift to mirrorless.

Can't be that difficult, can it?


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## unfocused (May 15, 2019)

Jones said:


> My suggestion for Canon:
> 
> Take the body of a 7DII, put in all the latest stuff including the new 32.5MP sensor. Call it "9D" and sell it a price level between a 7DIII and a 90D. Both Upgraders and newcomers would love it, you would make tons of money and this 9D would be a really dignified closing of the APS-C DSLRS line of products before consumers and pros shift to mirrorless.
> 
> Can't be that difficult, can it?



Unfortunately, it can. Read through the discussion of the past several pages. The current state of physics prevent two objects from occupying the same space at the same time. 80D users love their flip out screens. 7D users love their joysticks and control wheels. There is not enough space for both without seriously compromising the ergonomics of the body. While I would jump at your suggestion, I'm afraid there would be a substantial number of 80D users who would not.


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## AlanF (May 15, 2019)

tron said:


> So you wouldn't be tempted with a 1.5Kg EF 500mm f/5.6 DO lens ?


I have said somewhere else I would!


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## slclick (May 15, 2019)

Joystick over flippy screen vote here. While the articulating screen is nice for a few situations, the joystick is paramount for most. I think the issue for me, someone who left the 7 Series behind for the 5 Series is noise. Sort that out and you'll have a winner with all the current specs of the 7Dll.


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## tron (May 15, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I have said somewhere else I would!


Me too!


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## Chaitanya (May 15, 2019)

Mr Majestyk said:


> Gosh I hope they don't rehash the 80D's AF system. Time to get your act together Canon you're a distant 3rd or 4th these days.


? Canon is outselling both Sony and Nikon by a large chunk for ILC sales. Also whats wrong with 80D af system? Nikon has been using 51pt at unit for ages and still people are getting good results with cameras which use that Af module. Ultimately its the person using the tool thats important and not the tool.


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## briansquibb (May 15, 2019)

victorshikhman said:


> Watch the 90D outsell the RP and R put together. Canon won't kill a market segment they sell so many units in. The R seems like a great camera, but it's $2k body only. The RP is crippled and with one decent RF lens is $2k+. Meanwhile, the 90D will be available with a decent selection of cheap EFS lenses, that many already have. For many, it will get the job done at a much lower price point.


 I have a R and an 80D - The R beets the 80D hands down for picture quality.


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## AlanF (May 15, 2019)

tron said:


> Me too!


It's the weight! I am suffering from tendonitis in one foot and every lb or kg is bad. An new ultralight 400/5.6 on a high resolution body would be most welcome.


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## Trey T (May 15, 2019)

slclick said:


> Can these people please use a different word than 'crippled' to describe a body which is not top tier? Must they all be top tier? Humans...what are you going to do. SMH


Dont all “pixelpeepers” behave like that, regard specs over utility (or final photography work)?


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## haggie (May 15, 2019)

tron said:


> My previous post about lenses was incomplete. But you got the meaning, Future birders/wild life photographers with no system yet they may choose Nikon due to these two lenses.



I think it is more likely that, if you can afford the choice, you take the Nikon 80-400 mm instead of the 200-500 mm, unless you REALLY REALLY need the extra mm's. The Nikon 80-400 mm is much better than the Nikon 200-500mm. 
And together with the D500 that is an awesome combination!


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## haggie (May 15, 2019)

HarrieR said:


> Lets not forget that the 80D -that I bought as a fall back cam- has 9 cross type AF points sensitive enough to work at f=8. It allows even for tracking birds with my 100-400mm mkII and the 1.4x extender installed.
> I found that and still find it an great improvement over my 7D mk II. And thanks to the touch screen, I haven't missed the joy stick for one second.
> Apart from that the performance of the 24 mp sensor-chip isn't bad eighter!
> It turns out that I use the 80D more than the 7D mkII, these days. But I agree, a 7D mk III or any other seriuous APS-C cam is way, way overdue.



In the case of the 200-400 mm with 1.4TC you are right: then you simply need the f/8 AF-points for the combo to just work.

But for the rest my experiences are quite different. I also have both the 80D and the 7D Mk II. 
With the 100-400 II, the AF on the 7D Mk II is faster and more reliable than on the 80D when fast moving aircraft and birds are concerned. The same goes for the 500 mm II. 
Only when subjects do not move fast and/or eratically, will the difference between the 2 be less noticeable or even absent.
That is why in for fast action I always take the 7D Mk II - and have the 80D as a backup or have it ready with e.g. the 15-85 or the 70-200 on it (because the 80D is certainly noy completely useless for action photography).

And when I have to be quick (for instance during an airshow when planes come from the left and a moment later from the right), the "joy stick" is sooooo much quicker: no need to take your eye from the viewfinder, just toggle it and keep shooting.
Also here, it only matters wwith fast action and quick changing circumstances. No need for this when shooting a toddler crawling around.


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## flip314 (May 15, 2019)

Mr Majestyk said:


> Gosh I hope they don't rehash the 80D's AF system. Time to get your act together Canon you're a distant 3rd or 4th these days.



What's wrong with the 80D AF? Sure the extra spread of the 7DII would be nice, but proportionally the 80D spread is comparable to the Pro FF cameras. In terms of number of points, 45 is more than enough for where 80D sits in the product line and they're all cross-type. In terms of speed or accuracy, I've never had any issues.

The 80D isn't perfect by any means, but the AF system is one of the things I wouldn't have many complaints about.


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## tron (May 15, 2019)

haggie said:


> I think it is more likely that, if you can afford the choice, you take the Nikon 80-400 mm instead of the 200-500 mm, unless you REALLY REALLY need the extra mm's. The Nikon 80-400 mm is much better than the Nikon 200-500mm.
> And together with the D500 that is an awesome combination!


The Canon 100-400 II is excellent too.


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## DreDaze (May 15, 2019)

slclick said:


> Joystick over flippy screen vote here. While the articulating screen is nice for a few situations, the joystick is paramount for most. I think the issue for me, someone who left the 7 Series behind for the 5 Series is noise. Sort that out and you'll have a winner with all the current specs of the 7Dll.


why not both?


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## unfocused (May 15, 2019)

DreDaze said:


> why not both?


Not enough real estate.


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## AlanF (May 15, 2019)

haggie said:


> I think it is more likely that, if you can afford the choice, you take the Nikon 80-400 mm instead of the 200-500 mm, unless you REALLY REALLY need the extra mm's. The Nikon 80-400 mm is much better than the Nikon 200-500mm.
> And together with the D500 that is an awesome combination!


Not what the main reviewers say about its performance at 400mm. Lensrentals in their 400mm shootout: 
"Commonly called the 80-400 VR II, this lens has been the Nikon 400mm zoom for some time now. It’s, well, it’s better up to about 300mm, but it’s just not that good when you stretch it out to 400mm. Not a great performance for a lens that demands a premium price."
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/08/the-sort-of-great-400mm-shootout/

And lenstip's measurements show it to be inferior to the 100-400mm II
https://www.lenstip.com/448.4-Lens_...400_mm_f_4.5-5.6G_ED_VR_Image_resolution.html

And there are various other reviews that don't rate it at 400mm that I have read and can't be bothered to seek out, but here is one I remember by ePhotozine https://www.ephotozine.com/article/nikon-nikkor-80-400mm-f-4-5-5-6g-ed-vr-ii-review-22065


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## Trey T (May 16, 2019)

snoke said:


> What missing for 7D Mark II upgrade?


It’s on a 80D body (##D platform). If the foundation, the utility of the camera (joystick, regular size quick control dial), is not there, then it doesn’t qualified as a 7D upgrade. It sounds like a 80D Mark II (or 90D)


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## Chaitanya (May 16, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Not enough real estate.


Sony and Fuji disagree.


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## Joules (May 16, 2019)

Trey T said:


> It’s on a 80D body (##D platform). If the foundation, the utility of the camera (joystick, regular size quick control dial), is not there, then it doesn’t qualified as a 7D upgrade. It sounds like a 80D Mark II (or 90D)


Did I miss it? I've seen no mention of anything related to the body type rumored. It might just as well be a 7D Body, even though that does seeem unlikly given the rumored price.

Maybe all the software options will be included and the joystick be replaced by touch and drag AF. Would make sense as a cost saving measure and probably be okay for the target audience.


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## preppyak (May 16, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Personally, I don't believe in this spec, but I also don't see a problem for Canon to have 4k60 in 5D5 if the new Digic they supposedly put into 90D is able to handle it without overheating.


I meant more in the sense that we're certainly a 1yr+ from a 5DV, and Canon doesnt traditionally use firmware to upgrade major features (like 4k60), so itd be odd for a 90D to be on market for a year before any canon full-frame does it.

Though I guess if a pro R model did it, that'd cover their usual segmentation bases.


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## pj1974 (May 16, 2019)

preppyak said:


> I meant more in the sense that we're certainly a 1yr+ from a 5DV, and Canon doesnt traditionally use firmware to upgrade major features (like 4k60), so itd be odd for a 90D to be on market for a year before any canon full-frame does it.
> 
> Though I guess if a pro R model did it, that'd cover their usual segmentation bases.



Remember that a number of significant features were introduced in 'prosumer' models, and most of these in the APS-C camears, e.g.:

articulating screen in the 60D
touchscreen in the Rebel 650D
continuous AF while shooting movies in the 650D
DPAF in the 70D
the -3 EV sensitive AF central point in the 6D

There is no real barrier (marketing or otherwise) to provide / introduce 4k60 in a 'lower' tier of Canon DSLR / APS-C mirrorless models either.

Paul


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## DreDaze (May 16, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Not enough real estate.


they could easily do both...


----------



## GMCPhotographics (May 16, 2019)

AlanF said:


> It's the weight! I am suffering from tendonitis in one foot and every lb or kg is bad. An new ultralight 400/5.6 on a high resolution body would be most welcome.


When I bought a 400mm f2.8 LIS (mkI) I took up weight lifting / strength training so I could handle the lens better. I still keep up with the lifting in the gym and it's kind of brought a new lease of life to this 'ol hound dog.


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## Sharlin (May 16, 2019)

One possible compromise between tilty-flippy and more physical controls would be a display that merely tilts. I would find that quite acceptable; vlog people would probably disagree though!


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## koenkooi (May 16, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> One possible compromise between tilty-flippy and more physical controls would be a display that merely tilts. I would find that quite acceptable; vlog people would probably disagree though!



Macro people as well


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## snoke (May 16, 2019)

Sensor have DPAF?


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## slclick (May 16, 2019)

preppyak said:


> I meant more in the sense that we're certainly a 1yr+ from a 5DV, and Canon doesnt traditionally use firmware to upgrade major features (like 4k60), so itd be odd for a 90D to be on market for a year before any canon full-frame does it.
> 
> Though I guess if a pro R model did it, that'd cover their usual segmentation bases.


I'm not sure I'd use the word 'certainly'. Release cycles aren't what they use to be.


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## BillB (May 16, 2019)

melgross said:


> With all this cry about more focus points, I’d like to bet that most buyers don’t need them, because they’re not shooting “action”. Canon is likely aware of who is buying their products. They seem to be better at this than other companies, which is why they’re on top. Without knowing sales numbers of the 7D vs the 80D, we can only speculate according to what we think is right, but it might not be.


With the ongoing decline in sales and the growth of the mirrorless market, one question is how many high end aps-c DSLR models Canon is going to roll out. If there is only going to be one high end aps-c DSLR, my guess is the feature set is going to be pretty robust in terms of AF and ergonomics. Not sure how close it might come to the 7DII in ruggedization. Would Canon ruggedize an aps-c DSLR or a M5II? It doesn't seem likely they would do both. The DSLR seems more likely to me, but I'm not sure why.


----------



## jolyonralph (May 16, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Even CFast is a dead format going forwards just like CF.


Agree with you. Why fight the inevitable. It's going to be SDXC UHS-II and UHS-III for the low-mid end, and probably XQD/CFExpress at the high/pro video end.

Little point adding anything else nowdays.


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## melgross (May 16, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> The problem is 100D is already in use (called SL1 in one part of the world). As are 200D and 300D.


That was just one suggestion. I made another. But it doesn’t matter. Really, who cares about how they name the product? That’s the least of what we should be talking about. Besides, as we know, and Canon has themselves stated, DSLRs are on borrowed time. How long they’ll be around, we don’t yet know, but I bet that in five years, Canon will have killed the under $1,000 models in most places, and will be dragging the life of others out for longer times.

They won’t be needing to many more DSLR names.


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## melgross (May 16, 2019)

BillB said:


> With the ongoing decline in sales and the growth of the mirrorless market, one question is how many high end aps-c DSLR models Canon is going to roll out. If there is only going to be one high end aps-c DSLR, my guess is the feature set is going to be pretty robust in terms of AF and ergonomics. Not sure how close it might come to the 7DII in ruggedization. Would Canon ruggedize an aps-c DSLR or a M5II? It doesn't seem likely they would do both. The DSLR seems more likely to me, but I'm not sure why.


APS-C DSLRs are the ones declining the most. That’s happening for everyone. It makes sense to combine models, and to bias them towards the ones Canon is seeing greater life. If that’s the 80D over the 7D, so be it.


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## melgross (May 16, 2019)

BillB said:


> With the ongoing decline in sales and the growth of the mirrorless market, one question is how many high end aps-c DSLR models Canon is going to roll out. If there is only going to be one high end aps-c DSLR, my guess is the feature set is going to be pretty robust in terms of AF and ergonomics. Not sure how close it might come to the 7DII in ruggedization. Would Canon ruggedize an aps-c DSLR or a M5II? It doesn't seem likely they would do both. The DSLR seems more likely to me, but I'm not sure why.


Well, it’s hard to say. But as DSLR APS-C camera sales for everyone are falling the fastest, we can see why Nikon hasn’t even attempted (so far, anyway) to bother with an APS-C mirrorless model. It’s as though APS-C is dying in every type. Though, canons M series seem to be doing pretty well.

Possibly because it’s a pretty compact line. I believe that with mirrorless FF cameras getting smaller, people have decided to buy the bigger format. If the sizes aren’t too different, why go to a noticeably inferior sensor? This is the problem Olympus isn’t seeing with their new “pro” model for 4:3. That’s also within mirrorless FF size.

And, years ago, once Canon came out with the first FF DSLR, we could see that APS-C was getting no love. Thom Hogan has consistently called both Canon and Nikon out for refusing to extend their APS-C lens series significantly when compared to their FF offerings, and specifically, for them to refuse to make real pro grade lenses. He’s right.

So mirrorless seems, to me, to be an excuse for companies to get out from the APS-C market altogether. While reporters seem concerned about it, and keep battering camera executives over the format, buyers don’t seem to care nearly as much.


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## Chaitanya (May 16, 2019)

jolyonralph said:


> Agree with you. Why fight the inevitable. It's going to be SDXC UHS-II and UHS-III for the low-mid end, and probably XQD/CFExpress at the high/pro video end.
> 
> Little point adding anything else nowdays.


It seems like UHS-III is also a DoA format with SDA announcement of SDexpress which moves SD cards to industry standard NVME protocol vs previous SPI protocol. With NVME protocol in use across various platforms it will certainly simplify design of both H/W and S/W.


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## flip314 (May 16, 2019)

pj1974 said:


> There is no real barrier (marketing or otherwise) to provide / introduce 4k60 in a 'lower' tier of Canon DSLR / APS-C mirrorless models either.



You need twice the processing power to produce 4k60 over 4k30. That's a very real engineering barrier. People can be annoyed that low-tier cameras don't get 4k60, they can think it's a bad marketing idea, but it wouldn't be free. Free meaning not only cost, but possibly heat dissipation concerns as well.


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## unfocused (May 16, 2019)

melgross said:


> ...Besides, as we know, and Canon has themselves stated, DSLRs are on borrowed time...



I have not seen that statement from Canon. Could you please point us to the statement.


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## gsealy (May 16, 2019)

It will be interesting to see what the external recording specs are.


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## Arod820 (May 17, 2019)

If it’s as good as this, I’ll buy one for sure. On paper this thing sounds like a 5d mkiv


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## canonnews (May 17, 2019)

DreDaze said:


> they could easily do both...



actually, it's not that easy. something would have to give. either size or controls or ergonomics. Doesn't matter what Sony has done or Fuji,etc. it's a Canon camera with pretty set ergonomics between the two, and there's a ton of differences, not just a joystick that would have to be accounted for.

https://www.canonnews.com/the-pros-and-cons-of-merging-the-80d-series-and-the-7d-series-17


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## Chaitanya (May 17, 2019)

canonnews said:


> actually, it's not that easy. something would have to give. either size or controls or ergonomics. Doesn't matter what Sony has done or Fuji,etc. it's a Canon camera with pretty set ergonomics between the two, and there's a ton of differences, not just a joystick that would have to be accounted for.
> 
> https://www.canonnews.com/the-pros-and-cons-of-merging-the-80d-series-and-the-7d-series-17


I dont mind the missing joystick if the D-Pad was set higher on body like Nikon's D7xx00 series of cameras. At current position of D-Pad is literal pain for thumb when using it in landscape orientation and in much better position when using in portrait with battery grip. Also whats bafffeling to me is that Canon has the best touch screen implementation across all camera brands yet they dont implement touch to drag Af points on EOS xxD. Nikon has been doing touch screen af point selection on their D5x00 series of cameras for quite sometime. even that would reduce the need for joystick and reduce pain in thumb from current dpad.


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## DaBaoZi (May 17, 2019)

First, I am surprised that with dual digic 8 you only obtain 10fps.
Seconds, I would be surprised if Canon released another DSLR with new image sensor, in particular with only 45 focus points.
What I could imagine ist that Canon releases one EOS M and one EOS R camera both APS-C with very similar features but different User Interface, weather sealing etc. This way they could benefit from economies of scale for electronics and maybe image sensor.
No more Major upgrade DSLR.


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## scyrene (May 17, 2019)

melgross said:


> I believe that with mirrorless FF cameras getting smaller, people have decided to buy the bigger format. If the sizes aren’t too different, why go to a noticeably inferior sensor?



I'm not sure many people can tell the difference (and certainly I don't think the output from APS-C cameras is 'noticeably inferior' in most cases), but regardless, the big reason to choose APS-C over FF has always been: price.


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## Sharlin (May 17, 2019)

DaBaoZi said:


> First, I am surprised that with dual digic 8 you only obtain 10fps.



First, this is CR1. Second, throughput is not just about CPU performance. There are other bottlenecks of which the most critical is sensor readout speed. A throughput of 32Mpix*10fps is already much more than _any other Canon camera_ besides the 1Dx and 1Dx2. One of the things that makes this rumor implausible.


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## victorshikhman (May 17, 2019)

melgross said:


> Canon has themselves stated, DSLRs are on borrowed time.



Up until about a year ago, both Canon and Nikon were saying the exact opposite for years, that mirrorless was a fad, that mirrorless cameras were toys which couldn't compete with "pro-grade" DSLRs, that the weight advantages were offset by lenses anyway, both companies were committed to DSLRs for decades to come, etc. Funny how quickly it all changed.


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## criscokkat (May 17, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> First, this is CR1. Second, throughput is not just about CPU performance. There are other bottlenecks of which the most critical is sensor readout speed. A throughput of 32Mpix*10fps is already much more than _any other Canon camera_ besides the 1Dx and 1Dx2. One of the things that makes this rumor implausible.


Unless they have caught up and/or surpassed Sony's current sensor with this new design. They've known for a while their iterations of the same basic sensor was lacking in speed capabilities, and have been delayed (compared with the last decade) in releasing a new sensor design. I suspect they had hoped this was ready a year ago to put in the R. There has been at least a year fap in releasing new sensor base designs, the R and RP were just repackaged tweaked designs. 32 seems like a very large jump, buy it's all relative. It's only a 25% bump. The 18 to 24 bump that happened between 7dmkii and the 80d was the same percentage.


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## unfocused (May 17, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> Unless they have caught up and/or surpassed Sony's current sensor with this new design. They've known for a while their iterations of the same basic sensor was lacking in speed capabilities, and have been delayed (compared with the last decade) in releasing a new sensor design. I suspect they had hoped this was ready a year ago to put in the R. There has been at least a year fap in releasing new sensor base designs, the R and RP were just repackaged tweaked designs. 32 seems like a very large jump, buy it's all relative. It's only a 25% bump. The 18 to 24 bump that happened between 7dmkii and the 80d was the same percentage.


Actually, the 7DII is 20 mp, as was the 70D, but your point is still valid.


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## raptor3x (May 17, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> First, this is CR1. Second, throughput is not just about CPU performance. There are other bottlenecks of which the most critical is sensor readout speed. A throughput of 32Mpix*10fps is already much more than _any other Canon camera_ besides the 1Dx and 1Dx2. One of the things that makes this rumor implausible.



The 5Ds/5DsR already have better throughput than the original 1DX and very close to the 1DXii. It's only a ~28% increase in system bandwidth to get to 10 fps @ 32.5MP and it would be really disappointing if you didn't see that much improvement going from dual DIGIC 6 process to dual DIGIC 8 processors.


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## pmjm (May 17, 2019)

If this had 120fps 1080p it would be an instant buy for me. I ended up picking up a Fuji X-T3 as a b-roll camera for its 120fps capabilities and am adapting my EF lenses to it with moderate success, but matching Fuji to Canon colors on my 5D4 has been a PITA. This would solve so many problems, which is exactly why I don't think Canon will do it.


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## pmjm (May 17, 2019)

flip314 said:


> You need twice the processing power to produce 4k60 over 4k30. That's a very real engineering barrier. People can be annoyed that low-tier cameras don't get 4k60, they can think it's a bad marketing idea, but it wouldn't be free. Free meaning not only cost, but possibly heat dissipation concerns as well.



Fuji offers 4k60 on their (similarly priced to this rumor) x-t3 body in both 8-bit x264 and 10-bit x265. Granted it's a different animal than a Canon, whose design has limitations due to legacy, but we're seeing these features more and more in competitors low-priced bodies and to remain competitive Canon really needs to figure this out.


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## Memirsbrunnr (May 17, 2019)

briansquibb said:


> I have a R and an 80D - The R beets the 80D hands down for picture quality.


That goes to the "root" of the problem, but I disagree the 80D is definitely not a "potato"or "turnip". I just think that the "carrot" for me would be the 90D getting a tweaked updated focusing system of the 7D mark 2. As long as that and a nice "bulb" timer it will be planted firmly in the ground and be bought. ;-)

Sorry but I could not help myself :-D


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## canonnews (May 17, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> First, this is CR1. Second, throughput is not just about CPU performance. There are other bottlenecks of which the most critical is sensor readout speed. A throughput of 32Mpix*10fps is already much more than _any other Canon camera_ besides the 1Dx and 1Dx2. One of the things that makes this rumor implausible.



Well, to be honest, it makes it one of those things that make this rumor probable IMO.

a single DIGIC 8 is 240MP/sec, however, we need 325MP/sec. Dual DIGIC 8 should certainly allow for 1.33x greater throughput than a single DIGIC 8.

as far as other performance bottlenecks, I don't really think so. For instance, their 120MP sensor can do a full sensor readout at 9.4FPS and that's 120MP. scaled to full frame that sensor is 202MP or scaled to APS-C that sensor is a mind blowing 79MP.

They already have a 30MP sensor that does 8FPS full readout (EOS R), so 10fps isn't a stretch in terms of sensor raw throughput.

Atypically the problem is how fast you can process the data in your image processing CPU's because of heat and battery life.

the faster those CPU's have to run, the more heat, the more current,etc.


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## milliggg (May 17, 2019)

We need a 7D Mark III...Canon needs to check with their base. The Nikon D850, although full frame, has a lot of features that would look good in the Mark III.


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## unfocused (May 17, 2019)

I know this isn't going to happen, but I always felt that the XXD series should be optimized for video and the 7D for stills. Give the 90D (or whatever) a flip screen and tune the performance and ergonomics for video (while still keeping it a quality stills camera). Put essentially the same guts into the 7DIII, but keep the 7D ergonomics (no flip screen).7DIII still capable camera for video, but primarily tuned for action, wildlife and stills. Shared components keep the costs down, while meeting the conflicting needs of buyers. 

I really believe (based on my own use) that once we get full frame bodies above 32 mp., the benefits of the larger sensor will outweigh the perceived reach advantage of APS-C and the need/demand for the 7D series may fade away. Already, I find the additional megapixels of the 5D sufficient that, coupled with the multiple f8 focus points and better low light performance, have me going for the 5D over the 7D in anything but bright sunlight.


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## Kit. (May 17, 2019)

DaBaoZi said:


> First, I am surprised that with dual digic 8 you only obtain 10fps.
> Seconds, I would be surprised if Canon released another DSLR with new image sensor, in particular with only 45 focus points.


Both could be about minimizing the cost of the mirrorbox.

If the rumor is true.


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## Jasonmc89 (May 17, 2019)

unfocused said:


> I know this isn't going to happen, but I always felt that the XXD series should be optimized for video and the 7D for stills. Give the 90D (or whatever) a flip screen and tune the performance and ergonomics for video (while still keeping it a quality stills camera). Put essentially the same guts into the 7DIII, but keep the 7D ergonomics (no flip screen).7DIII still capable camera for video, but primarily tuned for action, wildlife and stills. Shared components keep the costs down, while meeting the conflicting needs of buyers.
> 
> I really believe (based on my own use) that once we get full frame bodies above 32 mp., the benefits of the larger sensor will outweigh the perceived reach advantage of APS-C and the need/demand for the 7D series may fade away. Already, I find the additional megapixels of the 5D sufficient that, coupled with the multiple f8 focus points and better low light performance, have me going for the 5D over the 7D in anything but bright sunlight.



I’ve thought the exact same thing! Also, remove the AA filter from the stills camera!


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## Mr Majestyk (May 18, 2019)

dual digic in an 80D, but not in the 5D4 or EOS R. Only a 7 series has had dual digic outside the 1 series and 5Ds. Those specs seem way too good for an 80D replacement but if it's to repalce7DII as well it's believable. That would be a D7500 killer but I doubt AF will touch the D500.


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## melgross (May 18, 2019)

BillB said:


> With the ongoing decline in sales and the growth of the mirrorless market, one question is how many high end aps-c DSLR models Canon is going to roll out. If there is only going to be one high end aps-c DSLR, my guess is the feature set is going to be pretty robust in terms of AF and ergonomics. Not sure how close it might come to the 7DII in ruggedization. Would Canon ruggedize an aps-c DSLR or a M5II? It doesn't seem likely they would do both. The DSLR seems more likely to me, but I'm not sure why.



Well, again, it depends on the sales Canon has for the current models. If the 7 is selling well, that’s one thing, but if the 80 is selling well, then it’s another. We know that APS-C sales across the board are dropping faster then the high end models. This is for all manufacturers, but Canon’s sales last quarter were worse, mostly, apparently, because of fast dropping APS-C sales.

It’s difficult. Higher end FF cameras are doing fairly well, but not APS-C. It’s very possible that Canon is also losing some DSLR APS-C sales to the R and even the M lines.

I don’t know what to recommend, because I don’t have the data. None of us here do. We just talk about what we would want them to do, which is very different from what they should do. Other than a lucky guess, perhaps.


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## melgross (May 18, 2019)

unfocused said:


> I have not seen that statement from Canon. Could you please point us to the statement.



Come on. They didn’t use those words. Don’t be so literal. But they did say that they recognize that DSLRs on on a course where mirrorless will take over. They didn’t give a date.


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## gsealy (May 18, 2019)

Interested to see what the 1080p specs are. No mention so far.


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## flip314 (May 18, 2019)

gsealy said:


> Interested to see what the 1080p specs are. No mention so far.



The more I think about these specs the more they seem totally unrealistic, so you may as well make up whatever you want.

But given that 4K is ~4x the pixels of 1080p, if 4k60 is real, it would seem to imply that 1080p240 could be on the table (or at the very least 120 fps)


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## unfocused (May 18, 2019)

melgross said:


> Come on. They didn’t use those words. Don’t be so literal. But they did say that they recognize that DSLRs on on a course where mirrorless will take over. They didn’t give a date.



Well, you see, that's the problem with playing fast and loose with information.

There is quite a bit of difference between:


> ...Besides, as we know, and Canon has themselves stated, DSLRs are on borrowed time...



...and projections that eventually mirrorless cameras may sell more units than DSLRs. One implies extinction...one does not. 

As far as I know, Canon executives can not see into the future and have never claimed to have that particular super power. As a company responsible for protecting the interests of their investors and sustaining the viability of their business units, Canon seems to be positioning themselves to adapt to the market, wherever the market takes them.


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## koenkooi (May 18, 2019)

flip314 said:


> The more I think about these specs the more they seem totally unrealistic, so you may as well make up whatever you want.
> 
> But given that 4K is ~4x the pixels of 1080p, if 4k60 is real, it would seem to imply that 1080p240 could be on the table (or at the very least 120 fps)



It's 4x the area, but only 2x the amount of lines. If there's a limited amount of lines per second that can be read from the sensor, which seems to be the case for Canon, 4k60 would mean 1080p120.


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## Architect1776 (May 18, 2019)

haggie said:


> No it does not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Check the specs of those others, blows the D500 away.


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## uri.raz (May 19, 2019)

tron said:


> Yes I know that but the UHS-II are ridiculously expensive and not much much faster than CF UDMA 7 (150MB/sec write).



Amazon currently lists Lexar Professional 1000x (= 150MB/sec) UHS-II cards, 3.9/5 stars, priced 32GB @ $14.99, 64GB @ $16.95, 128GB @ $79.99. B&H carry those 32GB @ $14.99, 64GB @ $17.99, 128GB @ $27.99. This is far cry from "ridiculously expensive".


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## -pekr- (May 19, 2019)

Mr Majestyk said:


> dual digic in an 80D, but not in the 5D4 or EOS R. Only a 7 series has had dual digic outside the 1 series and 5Ds. Those specs seem way too good for an 80D replacement but if it's to repalce7DII as well it's believable. That would be a D7500 killer but I doubt AF will touch the D500.



5DIV has dual digic, the second one is used for metering and tracking ....


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## tron (May 19, 2019)

uri.raz said:


> Amazon currently lists Lexar Professional 1000x (= 150MB/sec) UHS-II cards, 3.9/5 stars, priced 32GB @ $14.99, 64GB @ $16.95, 128GB @ $79.99. B&H carry those 32GB @ $14.99, 64GB @ $17.99, 128GB @ $27.99. This is far cry from "ridiculously expensive".


Except that these are read speeds and the 1000x series has more or less uhs-i speed and you gain nothing.


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## tron (May 19, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> 5DIV has dual digic, the second one is used for metering and tracking ....


 Do you have any link that explains the use of the second digic of 5DIV as being used for metering and tracking? Because it was mentioned that only the 1 series had a separate digic for that (actually a 3rd one).


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## Quarkcharmed (May 19, 2019)

unfocused said:


> As far as I know, Canon executives can not see into the future and have never claimed to have that particular super power.



Interesting. Did they claim to have other kinds of superpower?


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## unfocused (May 19, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Interesting. Did they claim to have other kinds of superpower?


World domination of the photography market.


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## -pekr- (May 19, 2019)

tron said:


> Do you have any link that explains the use of the second digic of 5DIV as being used for metering and tracking? Because it was mentioned that only the 1 series had a separate digic for that (actually a 3rd one).



I have used just a general Google search. It is e.g. mentioned in the Wikipedia article ...


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## haggie (May 19, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Not what the main reviewers say about its performance at 400mm. Lensrentals in their 400mm shootout:
> "Commonly called the 80-400 VR II, this lens has been the Nikon 400mm zoom for some time now. It’s, well, it’s better up to about 300mm, but it’s just not that good when you stretch it out to 400mm. Not a great performance for a lens that demands a premium price."
> https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/08/the-sort-of-great-400mm-shootout/
> 
> ...



Thanks for your reply, AlanF. 
These test results are more or less unanimous, and that really puzzled me. Because this does not correspond with what I have seen over the last 1½ years in results from 3 people having a D500 with the 80-400mm and 4 people with the 7D Mk II (including myself) from my photo club.
So yesterday I have met with two of them and checked what these test results describe. And I think I have found the cause of the difference.

When comparing raw image of the D500 with 80-400mm with raw images from the 7D Mk II with the 100-400 II, the raw images of the 80-400 do indeed become worse more quickly in the range from around 320 mm to 400 mm. At 400 mm the images from the Canon 100-400 II are indeed less ‘fuzzy’ (sharper and/or more detail) than those of the Nikon 80-400mm. I never noticed that, because I never directly compared the raw images of both cameras. That establishes the results of the tests that AlanF referred to and that was a surprise, to be honest.

But I also found that after post-processing, the situation is really different.
The processed images of the D500 with 80-400mm are quite a bit better - but also with limitation as we have seen now. This is true only in a specific zoom range: it turns out that this is (only) applicable between 100 and around 250mm zoom.
The better Dynamic Range of the D500-body probably is important here (although many on this forum keep repeating that the difference in DR is minor or even that DR is hardly important: it is for action photography of air planes in less than ideal lighting). This gives the raw files of the D500 more room for correction in parts of the image with less-than-ideal exposure. 
Also the Noise in the processed images from the D500 seems to be (a bit) better than in those from the 7D Mk II – although that can also have a relation with the DR because e.g. shades do not have to be pushed near the sensor’s maximum performance with the D500.

On the other hand: in more ideal lighting situations e.g. where the light comes from the rear of the photographer and without hard shades (e.g. with only light, high clouds) and at 400 mm zoom, the processed images of the D500 with 80-400mm are comparable to those of the 7D Mk II in detail and contrast. So they are not better any more when the light is very good. Because the sensor of the D500 is better than the sensor of the 7D Mk II, this can only mean that the performance of the 80-400mm at 400mm really takes a dive. And that is what the test results from AlanF's reply say.

It turned out that we often compared images that were shot at between 220 and 350mm zoom, and that probably explains why we did not notice that before although it was there all the time. All in all, these results have been a bit of a surprise to me.






Architect1776 said:


> Check the specs of those others, blows the D500 away.



Indeed: check the specs.

-Check the number of AF-points: the D500 has 153, the 7D Mk II has 65.

-Check the number of cross-type AF points: the D500 has 99, the 7D Mk II has 65.

-Check the number of f/8 AF-points: the D500 yes, the 7D Mk II no.


Because specs often do not tell the whole story (compare Sony specs to Canon specs and then how some of them actually perform), it is relevant to know how the AF system actually performs.

And then the better specs of the D500 are confirmed to give better AF performace in real life.
The AF system of the D500 is quite generally desctibed to be more advanced, more precise and more customizable than that of the (much older) 7D Mk II. 
This is particularly the case for fast moving subjects.
And this is even more the case where the lighting is low or otherwise not ideal and/or where the subject has low contrast.


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## AlanF (May 19, 2019)

haggie said:


> Thanks for your reply, AlanF.
> These test results are more or less unanimous, and that really puzzled me. Because this does not correspond with what I have seen over the last 1½ years in results from 3 people having a D500 with the 80-400mm and 4 people with the 7D Mk II (including myself) from my photo club.
> So yesterday I have met with two of them and checked what these test results describe. And I think I have found the cause of the difference.
> 
> ...


There had to be a reason why your experience differed and I am pleased you have sorted it out. The D500 is the best APS-C for bird photography. Nikon has two excellent lightweight prime in the 300 and 500mm PF, and I confess to GAS for them. But, the 100-400mm II keeps me with Canon, especially as the 5DSR has really good IQ.


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## koketso (May 19, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Those specs look a bit too good to be true. It would be a fairly large step up from the 80D (even if not that interesting an offering for current 7D2 users). The dual card slots and processors I’m especially dubious of, given the price bracket. But I guess even Canon could surprise us every once in a while.
> 
> Edit: Missed the [email protected]! I believe it when I see it.


Those Dual Digic 8's ae probably enough of an indication that it will do 4K at 60fps... if this spec sheet is correct


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## tron (May 19, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> I have used just a general Google search. It is e.g. mentioned in the Wikipedia article ...











EOS 5D Mark IV


New 30.4 Megapixel full-frame CMOS sensor for versatile shooting in nearly any light, with ISO range 100–32000; expandable up to 50–102400 (equivalent ISO). 4K Motion JPEG video (DCI cinema-type 4096 x 2160) at 30p or 24p; in-camera still frame grab* of 4K 8.8-Megapixel images; multiple video...




www.usa.canon.com





Canon mentions only DIGIC 6+ for 5DIV. Nothing else. Not that this diminishes the camera. I do have it and I LOVE IT.


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## AlanF (May 19, 2019)

tron said:


> EOS 5D Mark IV
> 
> 
> New 30.4 Megapixel full-frame CMOS sensor for versatile shooting in nearly any light, with ISO range 100–32000; expandable up to 50–102400 (equivalent ISO). 4K Motion JPEG video (DCI cinema-type 4096 x 2160) at 30p or 24p; in-camera still frame grab* of 4K 8.8-Megapixel images; multiple video...
> ...


There are several reviews as well as wikipedia that state the 5DIV has a DIGIC 6+ and DIGIC 6 image for metering: eg https://www.techradar.com/uk/reviews/canon-eos-5d-mark-iv-review but imaging resources says it has only one processor https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-5d-iv/canon-5d-ivA.HTM


----------



## raptor3x (May 19, 2019)

tron said:


> EOS 5D Mark IV
> 
> 
> New 30.4 Megapixel full-frame CMOS sensor for versatile shooting in nearly any light, with ISO range 100–32000; expandable up to 50–102400 (equivalent ISO). 4K Motion JPEG video (DCI cinema-type 4096 x 2160) at 30p or 24p; in-camera still frame grab* of 4K 8.8-Megapixel images; multiple video...
> ...



There's a DIGIC 6+ as well as a DIGIC 6 on the 5DIV.


----------



## AlanF (May 19, 2019)

raptor3x said:


> There's a DIGIC 6+ as well as a DIGIC 6 on the 5DIV.


Thanks for this. AP states emphatically that the 5DIV is the first 5D series to have two digic processors https://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/reviews/dslrs/canon-eos-5d-mark-iv-review/2
The previously released 5DS and 5DS R have dual processors. So much for reviewers.


----------



## Lucidmike78 (May 20, 2019)

Canon's APS-C with the 1.6x crop is only 38% the surface area of a full frame sensor. It's like shooting with an 85.5-megapixel full-frame sensor. I don't think any lens performs well enough to handle that at the moment. I find that even the 80D starts showing noise at ISO 200 when you shoot red objects, properly exposed.


----------



## DaBaoZi (May 20, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Both could be about minimizing the cost of the mirrorbox.
> 
> If the rumor is true.


Adding the cost of the electrical viewfinder Display ...


----------



## degos (May 20, 2019)

Lucidmike78 said:


> Canon's APS-C with the 1.6x crop is only 38% the surface area of a full frame sensor. It's like shooting with an 85.5-megapixel full-frame sensor. I don't think any lens performs well enough to handle that at the moment. I find that even the 80D starts showing noise at ISO 200 when you shoot red objects, properly exposed.



I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Noise at ISO200 is nothing to do with the lens. All sensors struggle with very strong reds, such as newly-opened poppies.

All Mark II superteles were designed for 100MP+ sensors


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## Kit. (May 20, 2019)

DaBaoZi said:


> Adding the cost of the electrical viewfinder Display ...


Nowhere does the rumor say that 90D has a hybrid viewfinder.


----------



## blaydese (May 20, 2019)

I just picked-up three used EOS bodies of various models. Doing my best to get back into on of my favorite hobbies of all time. 

This 90D seems to be one step closer to a tiny bridge between the full frames and CMOS. However, as we all know, Canon just laughs at folks, just as there is in life, rich and poor people, so to there are rich photographers ($13,000.00 lenses) and poor photographers ($55 ebay used lenses). 

What matters most, is we take pictures and enjoy our hobby and each other's company and passion for DSLR cameras. 

But one thing is true, we all have one thing in common. We hate cell phone cameras and the word "selfies"

.  

 Peace!


----------



## AlanF (May 20, 2019)

blaydese said:


> I just picked-up three used EOS bodies of various models. Doing my best to get back into on of my favorite hobbies of all time.
> 
> This 90D seems to be one step closer to a tiny bridge between the full frames and CMOS. However, as we all know, Canon just laughs at folks, just as there is in life, rich and poor people, so to there are rich photographers ($13,000.00 lenses) and poor photographers ($55 ebay used lenses).
> 
> ...


I for one don't hate cell phone cameras or selfies. Far more people have great fun with those than do the minority that use EOS. By the way, CMOS are the most common sensors used all over in photography, from full frames and larger to cell phones, so how is the 90D a bridge between ff and CMOS?


----------



## tron (May 20, 2019)

Thanks for the info about 5DIV DIGIC processors. Funny that almost all BUT Canon mention it! Nice about the picture of its board.


----------



## Janek (May 20, 2019)

AlanF said:


> [...] so how is the 90D a bridge between ff and CMOS?



Perhaps Blaydese meant APS-C and it’s just a typo? Not sure.


----------



## AlanF (May 20, 2019)

Janek said:


> Perhaps Blaydese meant APS-C and it’s just a typo? Not sure.


A 90D would be an APS-C so it couldn't be a bridge between an APS-C and something else.


----------



## melgross (May 20, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Well, you see, that's the problem with playing fast and loose with information.
> 
> There is quite a bit of difference between:
> 
> ...


When Canon says, in interviews, that they don’t know how much longer DSLRs would be around, though they would be around for a number of years, that’s pretty much saying they’re on borrowed time. I think we all know, that the death of DSLRs is just a matter of time.

Obviously, Canon needs more lenses before more people will switch. Not everyone wants to use adapters. I see the DSLR contingent trying to convince the rest of us that DSLRs will be here forever.


----------



## unfocused (May 20, 2019)

melgross said:


> When Canon says, in interviews, that they don’t know how much longer DSLRs would be around, though they would be around for a number of years, that’s pretty much saying they’re on borrowed time. I think we all know, that the death of DSLRs is just a matter of time.
> 
> Obviously, Canon needs more lenses before more people will switch. Not everyone wants to use adapters. I see the DSLR contingent trying to convince the rest of us that DSLRs will be here forever.



You keep saying that, and I keep asking, where did Canon say they don't know how much longer DSLRs will be around? All I'm asking is that you point to such a statement. 

And no, we do not all know that the death of DSLRs is just a matter of time. I guess in the Keynesian sense that "In the long run we are all dead" that is probably true. But, from a practical standpoint, it's just not possible to know today if mirrorless cameras will replace DSLRs or if the two will continue to coexist for at least the foreseeable future. All indications are that Canon is positioning itself to dominate in the market regardless. But, I am not aware that they have picked a side. You keep saying they have, and I just want to know where you are getting that.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (May 20, 2019)

pmjm said:


> If this had 120fps 1080p it would be an instant buy for me. I ended up picking up a Fuji X-T3 as a b-roll camera for its 120fps capabilities and am adapting my EF lenses to it with moderate success, but matching Fuji to Canon colors on my 5D4 has been a PITA. This would solve so many problems, which is exactly why I don't think Canon will do it.


Would you mind sharing which adapter you have been using and how well it works? I've been considering the Fringer but haven't ordered since they are in the process of switching over to a new V2 of their EF-FX Pro. 

I have been using a K&F Concept adapter for my old manual focus Nikkor lenses. It works fine in it's limited way but I would prefer a fully functioning AF adaptor for my Canon lenses.


----------



## Ozarker (May 21, 2019)

milliggg said:


> We need a 7D Mark III...Canon needs to check with their base. The Nikon D850, although full frame, has a lot of features that would look good in the Mark III.


We do? You mean you need it. Believe you me, Canon has a finger on the pulse of their base. The base certainly isn't high end APS-C camera owners with $10,000 lenses. If that was the base, Canon would be *******.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (May 21, 2019)

Just caught up on this thread. It's getting boring. We need more Canon rumours!


----------



## Toni (May 21, 2019)

Another Canon XXd? What's next, going to analog camera again?

The market in on mirrorless cameras. There's no doubt. All other things are a nonsense.


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## SteB1 (May 21, 2019)

I think the 2 big questions are whether it will have a multi-controller and a metal body? The xxD range used to have these features, and it would make sense if the 7D and xxD range were going to be amalgamated. These are the 2 features I missed most on the 70D and 80D and I'm enjoying again on the 7D mkII. It would be disappointing to step down to 45AF points after getting used to the 65 on the 7D mkII, but I could live with it. Also the other big question would be whether it had an AA filter? I'm betting that these are guesses based on the 32mp sensor info, and not a real leak or based on knowledge.


----------



## Cryve (May 21, 2019)

i think at 32mp the aa filter isnt needed that much for photos anymore, but what about video?
can someone with video experience comment about this?

i would love no aa filter, but if it affects video i dont think canon will do it sadly.


----------



## scyrene (May 21, 2019)

melgross said:


> I think we all know, that the death of DSLRs is just a matter of time.



The problem with a statement like this is, while it must be true, it is so open-ended as to be essentially meaningless. EVERYTHING has a finite lifespan. It's like the old quip Neuro likes to use about the Sun becoming a red giant and (potentially) swallowing the Earth. DSLRs will cease to be manufactured one day. But none of us - not even the companies making them - have much idea whether it will be five years or twenty (to pluck a couple of figures out of the air). Mirrorless, too, will be superseded. Your implication is that we're at the end of DSLRs already - that there may only be one or two more models. But there simply isn't the data, from sales or statements by the manufacturers, to support or refute that position. It's all supposition based on gut feeling.


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## Shooterdad (May 21, 2019)

The number of the AF points is not the issue, even those AF mode can be ignored. If the new body contains these features, I will consider it's a 7D ii successor.


Joys stick
Surrounding AF point mode
One click 100% review
Adjustable shooting rate at low and high speed.


----------



## tarjei99 (May 21, 2019)

haggie said:


> Indeed: check the specs.
> 
> -Check the number of AF-points: the D500 has 153, the 7D Mk II has 65.
> 
> ...



My 7D2 has one F/8 AF point. The 80D have a lot more.


----------



## dtaylor (May 21, 2019)

haggie said:


> The better Dynamic Range of the D500-body probably is important here (although many on this forum keep repeating that the difference in DR is minor or even that DR is hardly important: it is for action photography of air planes in less than ideal lighting).



I've shot airshows every year since before my first DSLR (the 10D) and never had a problem pushing shadows or skies, regardless of lighting, once I had gone digital. The only sports/action situation I've encountered which presented a challenge to sensor DR has been surfing, and as of the 7D that was basically a solved problem. (While pixel peeping the worst frames you could see noise in the darkest areas, but it never showed in print.)

Tell me you're shooting a beach sunset, sun in frame, foreground in shadow, on both a 7D2 and a D500 and I'll understand. Tell me you have DR issues when shooting airshows and I'm left scratching my head as to what's wrong because the 10D could handle that.


----------



## dtaylor (May 21, 2019)

scyrene said:


> The problem with a statement like this is, while it must be true, it is so open-ended as to be essentially meaningless. EVERYTHING has a finite lifespan. It's like the old quip Neuro likes to use about the Sun becoming a red giant and (potentially) swallowing the Earth.



So once again, *Canon is *******.*


----------



## stevelee (May 22, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I for one don't hate cell phone cameras or selfies. Far more people have great fun with those than do the minority that use EOS.


A friend and his adult son did an extensive trip last fall to Morocco, Barcelona, a John Wesley tour of England, and a bunch of other places. The son documented the trip by taking selfies and shots of his dad. I could barely make out were they were because of the heads occupying most of the frame. I know what they both look like. Still, I was glad to get the updates. I just wished that I could have seen more of the places they visited.

I did try a selfie last year. Someone who knew I was going to the A10 conference tournament in Washington, DC, told me to take a selfie with Archie Bunker's chair. The results didn't inspire me to do any more selfies:


----------



## AlanF (May 22, 2019)

stevelee said:


> A friend and his adult son did an extensive trip last fall to Morocco, Barcelona, a John Wesley tour of England, and a bunch of other places. The son documented the trip by taking selfies and shots of his dad. I could barely make out were they were because of the heads occupying most of the frame. I know what they both look like. Still, I was glad to get the updates. I just wished that I could have seen more of the places they visited.
> 
> I did try a selfie last year. Someone who knew I was going to the A10 conference tournament in Washington, DC, told me to take a selfie with Archie Bunker's chair. The results didn't inspire me to do any more selfies:


They clearly had sufficient fun to want to show you the selfies and you enjoyed getting updates. Perhaps a mutual trading of lessons in photographic techniques would be in order. Although not being a selfy man myself, I can see where the notorious selfy stick would be useful in expanding the background and reducing the size of heads.


----------



## stevelee (May 22, 2019)

Selfie sticks also give more distance from the shooter, and thus lessens the facial distortion. (We have page after page of discussion about 85mm lenses and slightly longer for related reasons largely.)

Yes, they had fun, and I enjoyed getting the reports. The dad and I will be traveling this fall around Italy for a couple weeks and then taking a Mediterranean cruise. I don’t know whether he plans to take his nice Nikon SLR. I’ll have my G7X II, and we’ll both have iPhones. I doubt there will be any selfies.


----------



## Wandor (May 22, 2019)

I disagree on the card slot point but after that i would buy it right away.


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## Kit. (May 22, 2019)

melgross said:


> When Canon says, in interviews, that they don’t know how much longer DSLRs would be around,


Do they say that they _do_ know how much longer MILCs would be around?


----------



## Dantana (May 22, 2019)

Toni said:


> Another Canon XXd? What's next, going to analog camera again?
> 
> The market in on mirrorless cameras. There's no doubt. All other things are a nonsense.



Well, I just got back from a 2 week honeymoon/vacation in Italy (Rome, Florence, Tuscan small town). We were in some very touristy areas in Rome and Florence. I saw a lot of 80D's, 70D's, Rebels, and Nikon APC DSLR's. I also saw quite a few 5D 4's (and a few I couldn't see the version), and some Nikon FF. I saw very few mirrorless, mostly Sony and Fuji and a couple M's. A surprising number of older looking point and shoots of all kinds. And of course, mostly phones.

The 80D's stood out though (unless of course there is a trend I don't know about to use an 80D strap for a different body). There were an awful lot of them in the crowd.

I realize this is just what I noticed in a couple places on vacation, but it did standout. I'd say a lot of normal folk like the XXD and that Canon thinks they are still going to like them later this year.

Oh, and Italy was amazing. I want to go back, like right now.


----------



## dtaylor (May 23, 2019)

Dantana said:


> The 80D's stood out though (unless of course there is a trend I don't know about to use an 80D strap for a different body). There were an awful lot of them in the crowd.



I see a lot of 80D's and 5D's in general. The 80D quite frankly makes sense, it's a good camera with a good kit at places like Costco.

For all the "Canon is ******* / DSLRs are dead horses" talk I was surprised at the last Miramar airshow to see a Sony MILC. That's one Sony MILC on one of the days. The entire show was Canon and Nikon DSLRs.


----------



## Jasonmc89 (May 23, 2019)

Just got back from Costa Rica and all I could see was 7Diis, 80Ds, 5D4s, a couple of 1D serieses, Nikon D500s and the like.. (One guy I got chatting to had the Nikon 500mm pf.. Uhh the envy..) But I’d say the most common body of all was the 7Dii.

The few people I did see using mirrorless cameras where the type that take a photo of a sloths arse from 50 meters away with a kit lens. Think I saw like 1 Sony.


----------



## AlanF (May 23, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> The few people I did see using mirrorless cameras where the type that take a photo of a sloths arse from 50 meters away with a kit lens. Think I saw like 1 Sony.


Were they selfies?


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## scyrene (May 23, 2019)

stevelee said:


> A friend and his adult son did an extensive trip last fall to Morocco, Barcelona, a John Wesley tour of England, and a bunch of other places. The son documented the trip by taking selfies and shots of his dad. I could barely make out were they were because of the heads occupying most of the frame. I know what they both look like. Still, I was glad to get the updates. I just wished that I could have seen more of the places they visited.
> 
> I did try a selfie last year. Someone who knew I was going to the A10 conference tournament in Washington, DC, told me to take a selfie with Archie Bunker's chair. The results didn't inspire me to do any more selfies:



There's no way to say this without coming across as rude, but that is a classic 'older person who has no idea how to take a selfie' selfie. As with any type of photograph, selfies take work - there's technique there, and in some ways it's harder than other types of shot because we see ourselves very differently to how a camera does (and it can be awkward getting the right angle etc). The first bird pic I took wasn't great, but I persevered. It's a rare thing indeed for one's first attempt at anything to be good!

(I do agree though that some people take/post too many, and it can get boring, but conversely I have next to no photos of myself from most of my life/any of the places I've visted, and years later I regret that).


----------



## stevelee (May 23, 2019)

scyrene said:


> There's no way to say this without coming across as rude, but that is a classic 'older person who has no idea how to take a selfie' selfie.


Not rude at all. You are stating a fact, one that was sort of my basic point. I will concede that other folks take nicer ones. They have better subject matter than an old guy and an old chair. I made three tries. This was the least bad of the lot.

However, I would defy anyone to do a lot better under the circumstances without using more equipment and without cajoling someone else to take the picture (and therefore not a selfie). It was hard enough to take a cell-phone shot of the chair in its location even without sticking my head in. And I realize I could make this a little better in Photoshop.


----------



## pmjm (May 25, 2019)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Would you mind sharing which adapter you have been using and how well it works? I've been considering the Fringer but haven't ordered since they are in the process of switching over to a new V2 of their EF-FX Pro.
> 
> I have been using a K&F Concept adapter for my old manual focus Nikkor lenses. It works fine in it's limited way but I would prefer a fully functioning AF adaptor for my Canon lenses.



I'm using the Fringer and it works exceptionally well, but make sure you check the lens compatibility list, and know that it will drain your battery faster.

I haven't taken many stills with it, but so far I feel like it might actually work better for video than it does for stills. In terms of video, continuous autofocus feels about as responsive as it does on my 5D4. It's able to keep a Sigma 50-100 locked onto a face even at f/1.8. 

I don't own any Fuji lenses to compare with, but I can't imagine they could do much better than what I'm already seeing.


----------



## ourmark (May 27, 2019)

45 AF points would be an odd choice, seeing as Canon have the 65 point array in their parts bin from the 7D2. I note that the 19 point array of the 7D wasn't included in the first xxD camera to follow it (just 12 months later) but was in the next. Given how old the 7D2 and 80D are now, there seems no point in holding this feature back especially if there is a desire to bring both model lines together.

I don't shoot a lot of video so it doesn't matter that much to me, but I'd be surprised to see any video capability that's better than current mirrorless or full frame offerings.

I really like the rear dial and joystick on the 7D2 but also the tilty flippy screen of the 80D. I'd happily accept a smaller screen if it meant I could have both in one camera.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 27, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> It's not a step up from the 7dII but it is a step sideways. You lose the weatherproofing and joystick but gain a flippy screen and 60% more megapixels for greater cropping ability. The FPS doesn't change but I'm guessing with improvements in the processor the focusing probably is at least equivalent to the current 7dII and might even have a few dual cross types. I'd also strongly suspect that if you flip out the screen you will have the same focusing capabilities the R has, with edge to edge focusing capabilities and eye tracking.



The 7D Mark II has 65 AF points, all of them cross-type. It also uses iTR (shared with the 1D X Mark II and 5D Mark IV) that uses an integrated processor (in addition to the dual DiG!C processors) to combine distance information from the PDAF sensor with color information from the RGB+IR light meter to assist in tracking moving subjects in AI Servo AF.

The 45 point AF system (as seen in the 6D Mark II, 80D, 77D, and even the Rebel T7i/800D) is definitely a step down from the AF system in the 7DII.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 27, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> Looks like a big step up from the 80D and actually surpasses the vaunted D500 in many major aspects unless anyone gives a darn about number of AF points.
> It surpasses the 7D MII by quite a bit and looks like 7D type of specs with dual Digic and dual slots as well as 10FPS especially with the high res sensor.



It's not just the number of AF points, it is what you are allowed to do with them.

The current 45-point AF systems lacks several thing the 7D Mark II currently has:

- Single AF point with AF assist 4-point expansion (4 points on the left, right, above and below the primary AF point)
- Single AF point with AF assist 8-point expansion (8 points surrounding the primary AF point)
- The 9-point Zone AF in the 45-point AF system is _not_ the same thing as equal weight is given to all nine AF points rather than the selected AF point in the center having more weight and the other four or eight points being used a _assist_ points.
- Six customizable AF use cases that are instantly switchable without even taking one's eye from the viewfinder using custom control button mapping
- EOS iTR that uses a dedicated processor (in addition to the dual DiG!C processors) to combine distance information from the PDAF sensor with color information from the RGB+IR light meter to assist in tracking moving subjects during AI Servo AF at high continuous frame rates. When combined with the customizable AF use cases iTR can be a very powerful tool to configure the camera to track the way one needs based on different shooting scenarios.
- Wider frame coverage. The 65-point AF system of the 7D Mark II covers a much wider part of the frame than the 45-point system used on the 80D, 77D, and Rebel T7i/800D.
- More cross type points active to f/8
- More dual cross type points more sensitive with f/2.8 and wider lenses

The current 65-point AF system of the 7D Mark II is the same level AF system found in the 1D X Mark II and 5D Mark IV.
The current 45-point AF system of the 80D is a couple of steps below in terms of configurability, coverage, and tracking performance.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 27, 2019)

BrightTiger said:


> Given that this is supposed to be a merge with the 80D/90D, then a slight dumbing down is to be expected. Reasonable from a 2015 A.D. perspective. Not so hot in 2019. The M5 Mk II might have to be the savior.



No mirrorless camera Canon has ever made comes remotely close to being able to continuously track moving subjects at 10 fps, which the 7D Mark II does very well.


----------



## AlanF (May 27, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> It's not just the number of AF points, it is what you are allowed to do with them.
> 
> The current 45-point AF systems lacks several thing the 7D Mark II currently has:
> 
> ...


The 7DII also has centre spot focus, which is invaluable if you are focussing on a small object against a background, such as a bird in a tree. The absence of centre spot stops me from buying an 80D.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 27, 2019)

melgross said:


> The question is what is selling. If the 7D line is fading more quickly than the 80D line, then Canon may decide to abandon the 7D. That would make sense. A few years ago, total DSLR sales, in the industry, were 13 million. It’s now much less, and continuing to shrink.
> 
> The fewer sales, the fewer models. Something has to go. It will be the least sustainable lines. Obviously, Canon is transitioning over to mirrorless full frame. They want to pull DSLR users to that, whether they are FF users, or APS-C users. APS-C is shrinking more than FF is, so that makes sense too.
> 
> Only Canon knows where their sales are in the various models, and where they seem to be going. They also have some idea as to which users are moving to which R body. And, they have at least one new R body coming out before too long, as well as more lenses.



The reason the 7D line is not selling currently is because it has been _five long years_ since it was updated. Everyone who wants one has been holding off for the last couple of years waiting on an update with a better sensor. Sensor performance is the only thing that needs to be significantly improved from the 7DII for action/sports shooters. But that's a big one when deciding to pull the trigger and buy a 7D Mark II in 2019. If Canon does not make a 7D Mark III, they've pretty much intentionally conceded the APS-C sports/action segment to the Nikon 500D and its successors.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 27, 2019)

yeahright said:


> What is the deal with using the joystick for AF point selection anyway? I hardly ever use it on the 5D4, for me it's much faster using the two wheels with thumb and index finger for horizontal and vertical shift of the AF point instead ...



Many of us prefer to reserve those for manual Tv and Av adjustment on the fly.



Durf said:


> Dual card slots in an "80D Mark II" so to speak is a hint towards a 7D2 replacement type of camera. The 90D may be really the 7D Mark II replacement and have all the bells and whistles of the 7D2 and then some.



The 80D already has dual card slots. That's not a 7D2 "only" feature at present.



haggie said:


> That makes sense, from the viewpoint of what canon offers. But if the sales of the 7D Mk II is declining faster than Canon likes to see, I think there are more factors.
> 
> About a year ago I was heavily attacked by the usual members of this forum when I wrote about my observation that many people with a 7D or 7D Mk II that I spoke to, both in my home country and abroad, were thinking about switching to the D500. These facts apparently were not very welcome. I do not know about the people I spoke once when abroad, but I know since then 3 of my friends have sold their 7D / 7D Mk II and bought the Nikon D500.
> 
> ...



Again, the main reason sales of the 7D Mark II are currently so low is that it has been five years since it was rolled out. If Canon had introduced a 7D Mark III with nothing more than the 80D sensor in an otherwise 7D Mark II body in 2018, they would be selling boatloads of them right now. A LOT of 7D Mark II users have been waiting for a couple of years for the next model so they can upgrade.



victorshikhman said:


> Up until about a year ago, both Canon and Nikon were saying the exact opposite for years, that mirrorless was a fad, that mirrorless cameras were toys which couldn't compete with "pro-grade" DSLRs, that the weight advantages were offset by lenses anyway, both companies were committed to DSLRs for decades to come, etc. Funny how quickly it all changed.



With the near total disappearance of the true "pro" sports/action/reportage photographer (it's much worse now than it was in 2015 when that article was published), which has been Canon's core high end market since the EOS system was rolled out in 1987, there's not much need for true "pro-grade" sports/action/reportage cameras. What is driving the high end market now is what most wealthy "semi-pro" and "enthusiast" shooters with lots of money to spend want: cameras and lenses that are spec sheet champions.



criscokkat said:


> Unless they have caught up and/or surpassed Sony's current sensor with this new design. They've known for a while their iterations of the same basic sensor was lacking in speed capabilities, and have been delayed (compared with the last decade) in releasing a new sensor design. I suspect they had hoped this was ready a year ago to put in the R. There has been at least a year fap in releasing new sensor base designs, the R and RP were just repackaged tweaked designs. 32 seems like a very large jump, buy it's all relative. It's only a 25% bump. The 18 to 24 bump that happened between 7dmkii and the 80d was the same percentage.



The 7D Mark II is 20.2 MP (just like the FF 1D X Mark II with proportionally larger photosites). The original 7D was 18 MP (Just like the FF 1D X with proportionally larger photosites).



melgross said:


> Well, again, it depends on the sales Canon has for the current models. If the 7 is selling well, that’s one thing, but if the 80 is selling well, then it’s another. We know that APS-C sales across the board are dropping faster then the high end models. This is for all manufacturers, but Canon’s sales last quarter were worse, mostly, apparently, because of fast dropping APS-C sales.
> 
> It’s difficult. Higher end FF cameras are doing fairly well, but not APS-C. It’s very possible that Canon is also losing some DSLR APS-C sales to the R and even the M lines.
> 
> I don’t know what to recommend, because I don’t have the data. None of us here do. We just talk about what we would want them to do, which is very different from what they should do. Other than a lucky guess, perhaps.



Again, maybe the main reason the 80D is selling better than the 7DII is because one came out in 2014 and many shooters have been waiting for the last couple of years to buy its overdue replacement while the other came out in 2016 and those more interested in an 80D type camera are just now putting on the brakes waiting to see what is going to happen next?



koenkooi said:


> It's 4x the area, but only 2x the amount of lines. If there's a limited amount of lines per second that can be read from the sensor, which seems to be the case for Canon, 4k60 would mean 1080p120.



But each line is also twice as wide, in terms of pixels. That's 4X the number of pixels that must be processed.



-pekr- said:


> 5DIV has dual digic, the second one is used for metering and tracking ....



The 7D Mark II has dual DiG!C 6 processors for image processing _plus_ another metering/tracking processor for iTR.



degos said:


> I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
> 
> Noise at ISO200 is nothing to do with the lens. All sensors struggle with very strong reds, such as newly-opened poppies.
> 
> All Mark II superteles were designed for 100MP+ sensors



All Mark II Super telephotos were designed for 100MP+ _Full Frame_ sensors, which is approximately the same pixel density as 40 MP on an APS-C 1.6X crop sensor.



haggie said:


> Indeed: check the specs.
> 
> -Check the number of AF-points: the D500 has 153, the 7D Mk II has 65.
> 
> ...



- Check and see how many of those 153 "AF points" on the D500 are actual, user selectable, AF points instead of "virtual" AF assist points. (Hint: it's 55)

- Check and see how many of those 99 "Cross type AF points" on the D500 are actual, user selectable, AF points instead of "virtual" AF assist points. (Hint: it's 35)

- Check the 7D Mark II again. The center AF point plus the surrounding 4/8 when used as "AF Assist points" for the center AF point are rated to f/8.

There's no denying the D500 has a great AF system that does outperform the 7D Mark II AF system in some ways, but there is no need to exaggerate that difference.


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## Durf (May 28, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> The 80D already has dual card slots. That's not a 7D2 "only" feature at present.
> 
> 
> 80D is a single card slot body....


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## Architect1776 (May 28, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> It's not just the number of AF points, it is what you are allowed to do with them.
> 
> The current 45-point AF systems lacks several thing the 7D Mark II currently has:
> 
> ...



Guess I don't really care about all those points.


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## Michael Clark (May 28, 2019)

Durf said:


> 80D is a single card slot body....



You are correct. I don't know what I was looking at when I looked it up last night.




Architect1776 said:


> Guess I don't really care about all those points.



Just because you do not care does not mean no one else cares, either. A lot of folks use those features to their advantage.


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## Michael Clark (May 28, 2019)

AlanF said:


> The 7DII also has centre spot focus, which is invaluable if you are focussing on a small object against a background, such as a bird in a tree. The absence of centre spot stops me from buying an 80D.



I assume you are referring to what Canon calls "Single Point Spot AF?"

The 7D Mark II allows _Single Point Spot AF_ at all 65 AF points, not just the center AF point.


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## AlanF (May 28, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> I assume you are referring to what Canon calls "Single Point Spot AF?"
> 
> The 7D Mark II allows _Single point Spot AF_ at all 65 AF points, not just the center AF point.


Precisely, it's Spot AF, introduced in the 7D https://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/infobank/focus_points/a_single_focusing_point.do "The EOS 7D introduced a new single AF point mode called Spot AF. On a normal autofocus sensor, the sensor for each point is actually larger than the AF point shown in the viewfinder. Spot AF uses the same AF point to perform focus but the area it uses is much smaller – only fractionally larger than the AF point displayed in the viewfinder."


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## Michael Clark (May 28, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Precisely, it's Spot AF, introduced in the 7D https://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/infobank/focus_points/a_single_focusing_point.do "The EOS 7D introduced a new single AF point mode called Spot AF. On a normal autofocus sensor, the sensor for each point is actually larger than the AF point shown in the viewfinder. Spot AF uses the same AF point to perform focus but the area it uses is much smaller – only fractionally larger than the AF point displayed in the viewfinder."



I found it to be pretty flaky with the 7D. But then again, I found the entire AF system of my 7D to be pretty flaky. The shot-to-shot variation was ridiculous. What good does it do to make such a highly configurable AF system if it can't decide whether to front-focus or back-focus from one frame to the next!

It works much better for me with the 7D Mark II and the 5D Mark III than it did with the 7D.


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## AlanF (May 28, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> I found it to be pretty flaky with the 7D. But then again, I found the entire AF system of my 7D to be pretty flaky. The shot-to-shot variation was ridiculous. What good does it do to make such a highly configurable AF system if it can't decide whether to front-focus or back-focus from one frame to the next!
> 
> It works much better for me with the 7D Mark II and the 5D Mark III than it did with the 7D.


Agree 100%. The AF on the 7D was awful with it for some lenses and, for example, would not reliably AF with my 300mm f/2.8 II + 2xTCIII, as others found to their cost. But, that was cured with the 7DII and I found the 5DS R even better. The 7DII only has the centre AF for f/8, and only the centre point is a high precision one. Canon has the technology for upgrading the 7DII, and it is frustrating it doesn't do so.


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## Durf (May 29, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> You are correct. I don't know what I was looking at when I looked it up last night.



yes, I figured you just slipped 

I have pretty good luck with focusing using the 80D, I actually really am impressed with its focusing capability. I'm not shooting a lot of fast action stuff, but a lot of birds and some aircraft taking off and landing etc etc. I often use the center point at f/8 with my Sigma 150-600mm and my success rate I would guess is about 80% to 90% keepers. (in decent light). My 70-300mm IS USM L-Lens is on my 80D probably 90% of the time and I never have hardly any issues with focusing, either one shot or the center 9.

I'm not very familiar with using the 7D Mark ii but using the 80D now for almost 3 years, I really love the camera and it handles almost everything I throw at it. I've never had an issue with the 45pts being clumped together either. I personally think Canon hit a home-run with the 80D, it's really fun to use and a great camera.


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## Orson Burleigh (May 29, 2019)

Durf said:


> yes, I figured you just slipped
> 
> I have pretty good luck with focusing using the 80D, I actually really am impressed with its focusing capability. I'm not shooting a lot of fast action stuff, but a lot of birds and some aircraft taking off and landing etc etc. I often use the center point at f/8 with my Sigma 150-600mm and my success rate I would guess is about 80% to 90% keepers. (in decent light). My 70-300mm IS USM L-Lens is on my 80D probably 90% of the time and I never have hardly any issues with focusing, either one shot or the center 9.
> 
> I'm not very familiar with using the 7D Mark ii but using the 80D now for almost 3 years, I really love the camera and it handles almost everything I throw at it. I've never had an issue with the 45pts being clumped together either. I personally think Canon hit a home-run with the 80D, it's really fun to use and a great camera.



You are right about the 80D: it has been an outstanding all-rounder camera, and it has set a very high bar for what might well be the last Canon x0D DSLR. Though a body with this CR1 list of specs would certain qualify a 90D as the ultimate prosumer Canon DSLR, this specs list occupies enough of the potential 7D Mark III niche to lend support to rumors that there will be a single replacement, merging both the x0D and 7D series.


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## Michael Clark (May 31, 2019)

Durf said:


> yes, I figured you just slipped
> 
> I have pretty good luck with focusing using the 80D, I actually really am impressed with its focusing capability. I'm not shooting a lot of fast action stuff, but a lot of birds and some aircraft taking off and landing etc etc. I often use the center point at f/8 with my Sigma 150-600mm and my success rate I would guess is about 80% to 90% keepers. (in decent light). My 70-300mm IS USM L-Lens is on my 80D probably 90% of the time and I never have hardly any issues with focusing, either one shot or the center 9.
> 
> I'm not very familiar with using the 7D Mark ii but using the 80D now for almost 3 years, I really love the camera and it handles almost everything I throw at it. I've never had an issue with the 45pts being clumped together either. I personally think Canon hit a home-run with the 80D, it's really fun to use and a great camera.



At f/8 I would expect the keeper ratio to be very close to 100% in decent light with a 7D Mark II. I get 80% or better in bad high school football stadium light at f/2.8. The 80D is a very capable all around camera, in several ways superior to the 7D mark II, but its AF system is not at the same level as the 7D Mark II's.


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## Toni (Jun 11, 2019)

It should be M5 mark II.

Canon and Nikon, always looking to the past.


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## malarcky (Jul 2, 2019)

Toni said:


> It should be M5 mark II.
> 
> Canon and Nikon, always looking to the past.


Considering the amount of lenses that are currently in possesion of so many photographers, it wouldn't make sense just to switch formats without giving the current owners of the EF-S some lovin'. I fully intend on selling my 6D and 80D to get the 90D, or whatever it's called.
I have a 6D MkII so a 90D would be the last thing I need for now in the camera arena. When prices come down for the "R" cameras, I will use an adapter, but now I would like to move on with my DSLR format, as I see nothing wrong with the current pictures I am capturing with my cameras at this point in time.


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## mrmills4 (Jul 16, 2019)

Is it at all possible this "90D" could have focus peaking?


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## Toni (Jul 30, 2019)

malarcky said:


> Considering the amount of lenses that are currently in possesion of so many photographers, it wouldn't make sense just to switch formats without giving the current owners of the EF-S some lovin'. I fully intend on selling my 6D and 80D to get the 90D, or whatever it's called.
> I have a 6D MkII so a 90D would be the last thing I need for now in the camera arena. When prices come down for the "R" cameras, I will use an adapter, but now I would like to move on with my DSLR format, as I see nothing wrong with the current pictures I am capturing with my cameras at this point in time.



You can use EF-S lens with a lens adapter on a 'future' 5M mk II, for example.
DSLR are now so old as SLR are. I know really clear that I will not buy any other DSLR.


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## RustyTheGeek (Aug 9, 2019)

Antono Refa said:


> As tests show the RP's UHS II slot is faster than CF, it's high time Canon replaced the 2nd CF slot with SD.


Sorry but CF is superior to SD. There's more to it than speed. I'll agree that SD is more convenient since lots of other gear has a SD card slot built-in but CF is better in many ways. 

CF is Faster, more rugged, easier to manipulate in the fingers and label. The biggest downside to CF are the pins in the camera being susceptible to damage but the format is otherwise a solid solution. All those pins are for more grounds which helps with a more reliable data transfer. CF uses a more efficient parallel interface (like a PATA hard drive) as opposed to the serial transfer of SD. And if you want even faster, CFast is extremely fast and it fixed the pin issue with a much better connector.

IMHO - CF is for professionals and SD is for consumers. I assume that's why the bigger more pro cameras have CF or CFast and the consumer Rebel and smaller cameras use SD. (I realize it can also be a size constraint.)

Ultimately, in this day and age, it doesn't really matter. It all works and gets the job done. But I prefer CF and I doubt it will go away in the larger cameras.


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## Antono Refa (Aug 10, 2019)

RustyTheGeek said:


> Sorry but CF is superior to SD. *There's more to it than speed*. I'll agree that SD is more convenient since lots of other gear has a SD card slot built-in but CF is better in many ways.
> 
> *CF is Faster*, more rugged, easier to manipulate in the fingers and label. The biggest downside to CF are the pins in the camera being susceptible to damage but the format is otherwise a solid solution. All those pins are for more grounds which helps with a more reliable data transfer. CF uses a more efficient parallel interface (like a PATA hard drive) as opposed to the serial transfer of SD. And if you want even faster, CFast is extremely fast and it fixed the pin issue with a much better connector.



1. Sorry, CF isn't faster anymore. E.g. this writing speed test for EOS-R shows SD cards written faster than CF's maximal writing speed. Yes, I know those speeds aren't guaranteed, but one can avoid the situations in which they aren't.

2. All those pins are a big downside, e.g. I had to pay a nice sum of money to fix my camera when one of those got bent. 

3. Reliable data transfer? As in, you get more data errors when saving images to SD than to CF? You've got some source to support that claim?

4. Yes, CFast is faster than CF. It is also a serial bus, like a SATA hard drive. Its easier to get faster when you don't need to keep all those parallel pins in sync.



RustyTheGeek said:


> And if you want even faster, CFast is extremely fast and it fixed the pin issue with a much better connector.



I wasn't talking about CFast.



RustyTheGeek said:


> IMHO - CF is for professionals and SD is for consumers. I assume that's why the bigger more pro cameras have CF or CFast and the consumer Rebel and smaller cameras use SD. (I realize it can also be a size constraint.)



Oh, yes, pro cameras will use CF or CFast, as in they will have the later, and the former will disappear.


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## SecureGSM (Aug 10, 2019)

... or CFexpress instead, which is highly likely if Canon readout speed is now in 600Mb/sec territory according to some rumours... CFast writes as fast as 440Mb/sec max, AFAIK.
CFexpress can read and write data at speeds of 1,700 and 1,480 MB/s respectively


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## Sharlin (Aug 21, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Those specs look a bit too good to be true. It would be a fairly large step up from the 80D (even if not that interesting an offering for current 7D2 users). The dual card slots and processors I’m especially dubious of, given the price bracket. But I guess even Canon could surprise us every once in a while.
> 
> Edit: Missed the [email protected]! I believe it when I see it.



Turns out this was a surprisingly accurate rumor, excepting the aforementioned dubious things =)


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## AlanF (Aug 22, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Just got back from Costa Rica and all I could see was 7Diis, 80Ds, 5D4s, a couple of 1D serieses, Nikon D500s and the like.. (One guy I got chatting to had the Nikon 500mm pf.. Uhh the envy..) But I’d say the most common body of all was the 7Dii.
> 
> The few people I did see using mirrorless cameras where the type that take a photo of a sloths arse from 50 meters away with a kit lens. Think I saw like 1 Sony.


Don’t laugh. But, I have just returned from the Ecuadorean Amazon and there was a guy there with a Leica M and one of those pretty little lenses at the top of a bird tower trying to take a photo of a sloth at 50m!


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## Jasonmc89 (Aug 22, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Don’t laugh. But, I have just returned from the Ecuadorean Amazon and there was a guy there with a Leica M and one of those pretty little lenses at the top of a bird tower trying to take a photo of a sloth at 50m!



Nice camera, very, very wrong situation!

Was it the green tower by Sani lodge by any chance?!

How was galapagos?


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## AlanF (Aug 22, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Nice camera, very, very wrong situation!
> 
> Was it the green tower by Sani lodge by any chance?!
> 
> How was galapagos?


Napo EcoLodge. Galapagos and Ecuador were fantastic. We went from sea level at the Amazon to 4000m in the Andes. I have posted a few images in the Bird Portrait thread and in the 90D Full Specification thread.


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## Jasonmc89 (Aug 22, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Napo EcoLodge. Galapagos and Ecuador were fantastic. We went from sea level at the Amazon to 4000m in the Andes. I have posted a few images in the Bird Portrait thread and in the 90D Full Specification thread.


I’ll be sure to check ‘em out!


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