# Canon Q3 Operating Profit Nearly Halves on Post-Brexit Yen Strength



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 26, 2016)

```
Canon has released their Q3 2016 financials and they’re still making money, just not as much as they’d like to be.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/canon-results-idUSL4N1CU215?type=companyNews">From Reuters</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Oct 26 Japan’s Canon Inc said on Tuesday its third quarter operating <span class="vm-hook-outer vm-hook-default"><span class="vm-hook">profit</span></span> fell 48 percent, hurt by a strengthened yen following Britain’s vote to leave the European Union.</p>
<p>Operating profit for the three months ended Sept. 30 declined to 40 billion yen ($383.62 million) from 77.3 billion yen a year earlier. Five analysts surveyed by Thomson Reuters estimated an average third quarter operating profit of 58.3 billion yen.</p>
<p>The world’s biggest maker of cameras and printers also lowered its operating profit forecast for the year through December to 235 billion yen from a 265 billion yen estimate in July. ($1 = 104.2700 yen) (Reporting by Tim Kelly; Editing by Muralikumar Anantharaman)</p></blockquote>
<p><strong>Financial Reports by Canon Inc</strong> (<a href="http://www.the-digital-picture.com/News/News-Post.aspx?News=19136">found at TDP</a>)</p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://www.canon.com/ir/conference/pdf/conf2016q3e.pdf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Conference on results for 3Q 2016 Presentation material (PDF)</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.canon.com/ir/conference/pdf/conf2016q3e-sum.pdf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Speech Summary (PDF)</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.canon.com/ir/results/2016/rslt2016q3e.pdf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Results for 3Q 2016 (PDF)</a></li>
</ul>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 26, 2016)

Its amazing how one event can trigger currency changes that do not seem related on the surface. Was Canon hedging huge amounts that were suddenly devalued? They announced almost immediately after the vote that it would reduce profit.


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## Woody (Oct 26, 2016)

So, from Jan to Sep 2016, Canon has sold 3.89 million (Q1=1.02M, Q2=1.5M, Q3=1.37M) ILCs.

Waiting for CIPA numbers for the same period... so that we can estimate Canon's market share so far... (the first half of 2016 has seen Canon dominating the ILC market with nearly 50% market share).


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## tesign (Oct 26, 2016)

"Oct 26 Japan’s Canon Inc said on Tuesday its third quarter operating profit fell 48 percent, hurt by a strengthened yen following Britain’s vote to leave the European Union."

Or could it be Canon new product getting more expensive that sales slowed down.

Hmmm...?


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## ritholtz (Oct 26, 2016)

tesign said:


> "Oct 26 Japan’s Canon Inc said on Tuesday its third quarter operating profit fell 48 percent, hurt by a strengthened yen following Britain’s vote to leave the European Union."
> 
> Or could it be Canon new product getting more expensive that sales slowed down.
> 
> Hmmm...?


Lot of data in the attached report. ILC sales growth rate is +8% yoy and compacts are down by 50%. They are doing fine in ILC's. Based on value, 89% of cameras are ILC's. Hopefully we will see $400 Rebate with every DSLR soon. ;D


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 26, 2016)

tesign said:


> "Oct 26 Japan’s Canon Inc said on Tuesday its third quarter operating profit fell 48 percent, hurt by a strengthened yen following Britain’s vote to leave the European Union."
> 
> Or could it be Canon new product getting more expensive that sales slowed down.
> 
> Hmmm...?



Due to the increased value of the Yen, Canon gets less for each exported item sold. In order to get the same value in Yen, prices would need to rise even more. Sales did not drop much in the third quarter, its just that Canon received less in Yen for each sale. 

While Canon could drop prices and increase sales, they do not have much margin left to drop prices. I'm sure we will see sales for the Holiday Season, but they may not be as good as in past years where there was a larger margin of profit.


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## davidmurray (Oct 26, 2016)

I've long thought it ridiculous that the Japanese yen is so worthless against most other currencies.
Given the value of the Japanese economy in the context of the world economy and the Western World's desire for electronic goods, why don't they arbitrarily shift the decimal point 5 places to the left for the Japanese yen both internally and externally.

I have to wonder what difficulties the Japanese people would be having when it comes to assessing the worth of something when so much of everything has 5 to 10 figure quantities of yen. Even a hamburger at McDonald's would have a 5 figure number. :-(


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## sanj (Oct 26, 2016)

It seems like some people on this forum are right.


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## duckduckbin (Oct 26, 2016)

davidmurray said:


> I have to wonder what difficulties the Japanese people would be having when it comes to assessing the worth of something when so much of everything has 5 to 10 figure quantities of yen. Even a hamburger at McDonald's would have a 5 figure number. :-(



If you struggle with yen, then it'll be a torture for korean wan, a nightmare with vietnamese dong....
Now you know why Asians are good at math ;p


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## eguzowski (Oct 26, 2016)

Karma biting them in the A$$ for putting out a 5D Mark III with video specs from three years ago. A crop factor of 1.7 on 4k, no tilt screen, no 4k HDMI out, to many mega pixels to process for event photographers, dynamic range of old...I'm guessing they are dragging in other products as well.


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## zim (Oct 26, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Its amazing how one event can trigger currency changes that do not seem related on the surface. Was Canon hedging huge amounts that were suddenly devalued? They announced almost immediately after the vote that it would reduce profit.



Absolutely correct, except for the word 'amazing' I'd have used slightly stronger. In this case avtvm's catch phrase is probably quite accurate!


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## zim (Oct 26, 2016)

http://www.digitalrev.com/article/apple-experiences-its-first-annual-revenue-slump-in-15-years

Bloody britexit at it again :


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## time123 (Oct 26, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> While Canon could drop prices and increase sales, they do not have much margin left to drop prices. I'm sure we will see sales for the Holiday Season, but they may not be as good as in past years where there was a larger margin of profit.



Genuinely curious here; how did you determine what Canon's profit margins are on it's products? I didn't think that product profit margins were something Canon posts about and I'm pretty sure most companies keep that type of information secret.


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## jeffa4444 (Oct 26, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> tesign said:
> 
> 
> > "Oct 26 Japan’s Canon Inc said on Tuesday its third quarter operating profit fell 48 percent, hurt by a strengthened yen following Britain’s vote to leave the European Union."
> ...


The yen has appreciated against the £ sterling by 24% since January it was already rising before the Brexit vote. Canon UK prices have gone up inline with that drop except for the 80D which has remained at launch price. Some lenses notably new ones have unchanged but everything else has increased. How much Canon is obsorbing is very unclear, however I'm sure sales in the UK at least must be down consumers face rises in fuel, food & imported manufactured goods so disposable income is lower.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 26, 2016)

really CR? 

you don't post the actually astonishing ILC news in that brief?

_"As for interchangeable-lens cameras, in the third quarter, *sales increased 8% to 1.37 million units
thanks to mirrorless models and new DSLRs*

Canon, through the launch of new products, has been working to stimulate latent demand for
interchangeable-lens cameras. For the new DSLRs that were launched in the first half of this year,
like the EOS 80D, which offers improved capacity to track fast-moving subjects, and the EOS Kiss
X80 (EOS Rebel T6 in the Americas, EOS 1300D in Europe) with its enhanced ability to connect to
networks, have been enjoying strong sales. In addition, the EOS 5D Mark IV, the core model 
incorporating a full-size sensor that was launched in September has been contributing to sales since
its launch thanks to the well-balanced basic performance it offers in terms of still and video shooting.

Furthermore, for mirrorless cameras, following the EOS M3, we launched an affordably priced
model, the EOS M10 last year. We continued to post strong results through carrying out focused
marketing activities by strengthening online advertising and our sales network. We were successful
in generating new demand among groups that have had little familiarity with inter-changeable lens
cameras in the past, such as women and young generations. Enhancing our lineup in this way, we are
growing our mirrorless camera market share in Europe and Americas, but especially in Asia, and this
is now beginning to serve as an underpinning factor that supports our presence within the entire
interchangeable-lens camera market."
_

Canon is -1% YoY for Unit sales on ILC's. In a declining market.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 26, 2016)

Woody said:


> So, from Jan to Sep 2016, Canon has sold 3.89 million (Q1=1.02M, Q2=1.5M, Q3=1.37M) ILCs.
> 
> Waiting for CIPA numbers for the same period... so that we can estimate Canon's market share so far... (the first half of 2016 has seen Canon dominating the ILC market with nearly 50% market share).



CIPA will probably roll in at around 7.6-7.8 million units (as my guess) (a year ago there was 1 million shipped in Sept)

so somewhere in between a 49.8 to 51% marketshare.


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## AvTvM (Oct 26, 2016)

it is not (only) Brexit and currency swings.
It is Canon's failure to bring fully competitive mirrorless camera + lens systems - both APS-C and FF - to market in a timely fashion. I really love seeing stupid Canon being presented the bill for it. Conservative, greedy b*stards, that's what you deserve. With love from one of you customers who is holding back spending more money on mirrorslapper cameras and mirrorslapper lenses.


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## unfocused (Oct 26, 2016)

sanj said:


> It seems like some people on this forum are right.



But which people. Certainly not the "Canon is *******" crowd?

Unfortunately, too few people will actually read the materials before commenting. 



Canon (with emphasis added)]
As for interchangeable-lens cameras said:


> ...It is Canon's failure to bring fully competitive mirrorless camera + lens systems - both APS-C and FF - to market in a timely fashion. I really love seeing stupid Canon being presented the bill for it. Conservative, greedy b*stards, that's what you deserve. With love from one of you customers who is holding back spending more money on mirrorslapper cameras and mirrorslapper lenses.



Ha. Ha. As I said. It's too bad so few people will actually read the materials. Clearly you didn't.





Mt Spokane Photography said:


> ...While Canon could drop prices and increase sales, they do not have much margin left to drop prices. I'm sure we will see sales for the Holiday Season, but they may not be as good as in past years where there was a larger margin of profit.



A couple of problems here.

First, holiday price reductions are driven by the retailers, not by Canon.

Second, your statement seems to be contradicted by Canon.

[quote author=Canon]
As we head towards the year-end selling season, we expect competition to become increasingly fierce as we believe competitors will have adjusted their production systems and will work aggressively to recover lost ground. [/quote]

I don't believe Canon is going to sit idly by while other manufacturers attempt to steal sales.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 26, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> it is not (only) Brexit and currency swings.
> It is Canon's failure to bring fully competitive mirrorless camera + lens systems - both APS-C and FF - to market in a timely fashion. I really love seeing stupid Canon being presented the bill for it. Conservative, greedy b*stards, that's what you deserve. With love from one of you customers who is holding back spending more money on mirrorslapper cameras and mirrorslapper lenses.



yes, the greedy bastards.. ILC sales up 8% in unit volume.


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## IglooEater (Oct 26, 2016)

Okay maybe Brexit has hurt the world economy. (We'll only know that in 20 years) But blaming it entirely for a nearly 50% loss of profit is simply ludicrous. Another poster referred to Apple's slump in profits, too. Sounds to me like the electronics industry is hurting across the board, and some folks are trying to use Britain as a scapegoat to comfort investors.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 26, 2016)

unfocused said:


> A couple of problems here.
> 
> First, holiday price reductions are driven by the retailers, not by Canon.
> 
> ...



as far as the camera industry, canon wields the largest economic club.

it will be curious if on the year end results canon separates their volume out for DSLR's and mirrorless - it would be interesting to see how much they captured for each segment. but there's not a doubt that canon is quite bullish over their presence in both markets now.


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## AvTvM (Oct 26, 2016)

i don't mind at all seeing Canon suffering. Well deserved. 
Personally I have not bought anything from them for about 2 years now. Nothing that interested me in their product heap. 
And despite the Canon Defense league's denials ... obviously I am not the only one. ;D

Hope Canon will learn the hard way to deliver the products their clients want. Otherwise ... they will go under. Would not be the first big corp I have seen swimming by belly up. Nokia, Kodak .. RIP ... was a good customer of them as long as they made what I and many other customers wanted .. when they stopped ... bye bye baby ... no tears from me.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 26, 2016)

IglooEater said:


> Okay maybe Brexit has hurt the world economy. (We'll only know that in 20 years) But blaming it entirely for a nearly 50% loss of profit is simply ludicrous.



or you don't understand how safe haven currencies work?


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## rrcphoto (Oct 26, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> i loe to see Canon suffering. Well deserved. I have not bought anything from them for about 2 years now. Nothing that interested me in their product heap.



how's canon suffering. they are selling more ILC cameras this year than all other camera companies COMBINED.


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## AvTvM (Oct 26, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > i loe to see Canon suffering. Well deserved. I have not bought anything from them for about 2 years now. Nothing that interested me in their product heap.
> ...



does not matter. They are selling WAY LESS than they did last year and the year before .. and therefore are way down in profits. Just like when bnack in the 1970s mighty German photo industry was selling *way more range finder cameras* than the rest of the world. Meanwhile Japan was selling SLRs ... history DOES REPEAT itself. Ever so often. 

"GÖTTERDÄMMERUNG" ... Nikon first, Ricoh/Pentax, Olympus ... then Canon ... bring it on! 8)


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 26, 2016)

time123 said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > While Canon could drop prices and increase sales, they do not have much margin left to drop prices. I'm sure we will see sales for the Holiday Season, but they may not be as good as in past years where there was a larger margin of profit.
> ...



Did you read their report? They are making less income on sales that are about the same. They attribute it to the increasing strength of the Yen.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 26, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



actually no they are not. wow.. you're batting 100 today

Canon's ILC sales are basically the same as last year, sitting at -1% YoY.

perhaps spend a few minutes reading the reports and you MAY actually look half decently intelligent. it's a stretch but .. it just MAY happen.


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## IglooEater (Oct 27, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> IglooEater said:
> 
> 
> > Okay maybe Brexit has hurt the world economy. (We'll only know that in 20 years) But blaming it entirely for a nearly 50% loss of profit is simply ludicrous.
> ...



There are many, many things in this world I don't understand. Care to explain?


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## Tom W (Oct 27, 2016)

It's an exchange rate issue essentially. And things changed considerably as a result of the Brexit. But that's temporary. It hurts today, but 2-3 years from now, things will have worked out. And, Britain will be Britain again.


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## IglooEater (Oct 27, 2016)

Tom W said:


> It's an exchange rate issue essentially. And things changed considerably as a result of the Brexit. But that's temporary. It hurts today, but 2-3 years from now, things will have worked out. And, Britain will be Britain again.



Thanks, that's pretty much what I figured.


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## douglaurent (Oct 27, 2016)

I just wrote the text below in another forum thread - much weaker sales than in the years before can't all be blamed to a Brexit or the rise of camera phones alone. This is also one of the reasons:

People say that camera sales are massively falling because of smartphone use - but nobody talks about one major difference between smartphones and DSLRs:

- With a current iPhone 7 or Samsung S7, hardly any realistic wish for features and functions is left open. It's very hard to imagine which real essential things the manufacturers should come up with in the future. If you own one of the top smartphones of one of the leading manufacturers, there are no real reasons to complain about the few specs that are better in the competitor's product. You can survive with the functions of the current smartphones for decades, and it feels like as if everything's there.

- With a Canon DSLR that is 5-10x as expensive, you can easily make a realistic future wish list of a few dozen relevant missing points, because those functions are already implemented in lots of other existing products by the competition (many in mirrorless cameras). While the quality of the cameras is great in itself and you can use them for many years to come, a lot of things are limited, and logistics and workflow are not as convenient as they can be. A lot of extras and multiple devices need to be bought to be able to have allround capabilities.

Final result is: A 2016 smartphone just feels good and not like an expensive thing to buy for what it gives you. A 2016 Canon camera feels expensive, because you know the company has left out many things and didn't even pretend to try to release the best they can do. That is also the main difference to Sony. An A7RII or A99II feel much more as if it's the best Sony could come up with at the time. 

Maybe Canon should try to release products that include all they can give at the moment, and more people than now will see the reasons why it makes sense to buy them and feel good about it, although they have a smartphone and/or an older Canon product.


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## CanonGuy (Oct 27, 2016)

I hope canon learns to respect their customers. Both my 5d3s were due for upgrade this year. Then canon releases a disappointment and named it 5d4! Come one! You took 4 years to release this $hit?! I don't see ANY reason why I'll get myself a 5d4! I don't care about video. You could spend less time blaming brexit and spend some time on r&d.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 27, 2016)

IglooEater said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > IglooEater said:
> ...



when there's a disruption in the world people tend to flock to what's called safe haven currencies such as the Yen, and purchase that. Driving the price of the Yen up. when the yen is priced higher, Canon Japan gets less money for each camera or printer they sell to the USA, Europe,etc well anywhere in the world BUT Japan.

so if you by default make around 10-15% profit per widget, it doesn't take much of a currency change for your widgets to make far less profit. a 5% change can easily eat 1/2 to 1/3 of your profits.

Canon estimates that the change of currency caused losses of 1 billion USD to Canon Japan. not exactly small change.

But even with that .. this is Canon overall .. looks like Office took the major hit, ILC's are going strong .. demand is good, sales are the same as last year - it's hard to say this is caused by an ILC problem.

it's always funny to see a report like this .. and everyone starts complaining about a particular camera as THE REASON... canon is a huge company and spreading out even more so after purchasing Toshiba's medical division.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 27, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Maybe Canon should try to release products that include all they can give at the moment, and more people than now will see the reasons why it makes sense to buy them and feel good about it, although they have a smartphone and/or an older Canon product.



The ILC market is dropping significantly, Canon's ILC sales dropped 1%. Seems Canon is doing well, better than expected, in spite of your dissatisfaction. 

Final result is: your opinion doesn't hold up well in the face of reality.


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## Woody (Oct 27, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Final result is: A 2016 smartphone just feels good and not like an expensive thing to buy for what it gives you. A 2016 Canon camera feels expensive, because you know the company has left out many things and didn't even pretend to try to release the best they can do. That is also the main difference to Sony. An A7RII or A99II feel much more as if it's the best Sony could come up with at the time.



Regardless of what you say above, Canon has 50% of ILC market share while Sony is stuck with their ~ 13% market share for many years now and Nikon is losing ~ 5 to 10% of their market shares to Canon.

So, how do YOU explain that?


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## unfocused (Oct 27, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> ...A 2016 smartphone just feels good and not like an expensive thing to buy for what it gives you...



That's your opinion, but certainly not mine. I think smartphones are ridiculously overpriced, especially since they are purposely made to have screens that crack easily and batteries that die as soon as your contract is paid off. I've never had to replace a camera (Canon or otherwise) because it quit working. But, I have replaced any number of smartphones simply because they either broke or stopped working.


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## dsut4392 (Oct 27, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> I just wrote the text below in another forum thread - much weaker sales than in the years before can't all be blamed to a Brexit or the rise of camera phones alone. This is also one of the reasons:
> 
> People say that camera sales are massively falling because of smartphone use - but nobody talks about one major difference between smartphones and DSLRs:
> 
> ...



All of which bodes well for future pro/prosumer DSLR/ILC sales (room for improvement to sell you a new model in 2017+...), and poorly for smartphone sales (what more could you need?):/ Remind me again where you thought this argument was taking you?

Realistically, smartphones and high end ILC are quite different markets, with smartphone sales sustained by cheap debt and a 'consumable' mentality ("free" on contract, everyday use item, toss it out and get a new contract in 2 years or less) whereas some people seem to expect a DSLR should be perfect and feature complete now, last forever, and cost less than ever. If you take out the cross subsidy from your telco contract, top-end smartphone prices to me seem like a very expensive and poor value for money item if you churn through them every couple of years as most people do. It will be interesting to watch smartphone sales over the next few years to see if what you have said (and I agree with) about phones doing everything they need to sinks in, and people stop spending the ridiculous sums they are now.

I also agree with you that blaming weaker sales of ILCs on currency fluctuations alone is unrealistic, but believe the reason has a lot more to do with 2014 models already being good enough for all intents and purposes for everyone but a very limited subset than it has to do with new 2016 models _not_ being good enough. Sell me a perfect camera once, and you can kiss my business goodbye forever after. Trickle out some new features every couple of years and I'll keep buying every second model when something I actually want comes along, or the urge to spend some money comes on. If you are one of the few people that really does need more than you can get out of the 5D4 or any other camera body alone, then there are the specialized tools out there to fill those niches. Unless you're planning on doing something about how capitalism works, there's not much point in ranting about it.


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## sanj (Oct 27, 2016)

Market saturation is a reality. And happens regularly. Then a company comes along and brings along a revolutionary product (5d2, Iphone, iMac etc.) and sales hit the roof but the saturation cycle starts again. 

Lets see if it is possible for a company to launch a camera which is innovative enough for many to want to sell off their current cameras and buy the new product.


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## sanj (Oct 27, 2016)

unfocused said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > ...A 2016 smartphone just feels good and not like an expensive thing to buy for what it gives you...
> ...



My experience has been different. I have lots of family members (especially the older ones) who have been using their phones for many years and refuse to upgrade as it works fine. I personally have sent my Canon for repairs several times and never my phone. This is my experience.


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## Mancubus (Oct 27, 2016)

CanonGuy said:


> I hope canon learns to respect their customers. Both my 5d3s were due for upgrade this year. Then canon releases a disappointment and named it 5d4! Come one! You took 4 years to release this $hit?! I don't see ANY reason why I'll get myself a 5d4! I don't care about video. You could spend less time blaming brexit and spend some time on r&d.



Exactly, from me, that's at least $3500 they missed out. I was planning to upgrade from a 5d3 as well, but I don't see the point


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## Stu_bert (Oct 27, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> IglooEater said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



A slightly more in depth explanation on why the Yen is a safe haven currency

http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/matthew-kerkhoff/why-japanese-yen-safe-haven-currency

Comparing smart phones camera abilities to an SLR to me is a pointless exercise. I have and use both as they both fulfill a requirement that I have. But to suggest that Apple, Samsung etc have put everything into their latest models that they could is a fallacy. As Sanj pointed out, the phone market like the camera market is hitting saturation because people can already do so much with their equipment and manufacturers have to balance the cost of development, continual refresh cycles, offering enough for people to upgrade but not too much that they struggle with the next iteration and get spikes in their revenue. Same could be said for Adobe and Lightroom, Photoshop etc, and Intel's last 3 generations of CPU, which on a clock for clock basis never seem to jump much more than 10-20% on Office Apps performance ie general use.

Look at Apple's changes to the iWatch v2 as they recognise that with the current cost & limitations that it isnt going to be the next big thing for a while, so they've changed it to be a health/fitness/sports device and lowered expectations on sales. Market saturation, lack of sufficient innovation and new compelling products coupled with the and inability to grow the less saturated regions is what is hurting Apple.

Sony has to risk more in its features to lure people away. Given the investment of changing camera - everything from chargers and cables, through to lenses and the body. It's significant, and more so if you are a Pro. All the manufacturers know this - they try to make their products sticky enough to make that transition less appealing. So to move you away from your current dSLR, Sony has to offer a compelling product. Nothing new there. But Canon and Nikon don't have to so much - they already have the broadest set of lenses, good support, track record of staying etc. Individuals have to weigh that up of course, and those with less investment with the kit have less stickiness and therefore propensity to move is greater.

I only changed from a iphone 4 to a 6 because it was given to me as a leaving present. The 4 still works fine although the battery isnt as good and the home button doesnt work. I have the Ipad mini 2 and the only thing which makes me want to change it is the storage and the lack of finger recognition, but neither of those are compelling enough to make me change. I still have a 20d modified for IR which works fine, although I will eventually get a 1Ds III modified.

Pay good money, chose the right (quality) manufacturers and the products should last. Heck I have a microwave oven from 25 years ago. Still works fine and does everything I need.

And there's the problem, as the tech reaches a plateau, so the manufacturers try to wring as much out of the tech as they can economically, while their R&D teams try to find the next step-change. Be that Intel, Adobe, Apple, Samsung, Sony or Nikon. The sensible ones diversify as a saturated market will not grow as much until that step-change happens. Hence why Adobe is spending more effort on mobile versions of their products, as there is more opportunity there and less maturity of their products. Desktop versions have reached the same plateau.

And sensible buyers probably skip 1 or 2 generations when they realise the additional cost will not produce a step-change in their output. The iphone 6+ has a great screen in comparison to the 4 and having used it for 18 months, I'd never go back and frequently use the phone rather than the ipad. But the 4 did everything I wanted except for the screen. I still have 1D MK IVs and 1Ds Mk IIIs and a single 1Dx, and whereas the appeal of the new sensor tech is strong, I will still wait to see what Canon do with a refresh of the 5Ds before deciding if I think the 5x range will be better for me than the 1x range (especially if Canon only keep a single model). Multiple accessories are a pain for me when travelling abroad. 

Oh and since I live in the UK, waiting till late '17 will also hopefully see some reductions in prices, although I doubt the currency rates will revert to where they were for a long, long time.


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## sanj (Oct 27, 2016)

Mancubus said:


> CanonGuy said:
> 
> 
> > I hope canon learns to respect their customers. Both my 5d3s were due for upgrade this year. Then canon releases a disappointment and named it 5d4! Come one! You took 4 years to release this $hit?! I don't see ANY reason why I'll get myself a 5d4! I don't care about video. You could spend less time blaming brexit and spend some time on r&d.
> ...



Yes. I also know of a lot of people you refuse to upgrade including people who shoot video because the 4k is not good enough. I also did not upgrade but bought 1dx2.


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## douglaurent (Oct 27, 2016)

dsut4392 said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > I just wrote the text below in another forum thread - much weaker sales than in the years before can't all be blamed to a Brexit or the rise of camera phones alone. This is also one of the reasons:
> ...



My theory is still logical.
Canon camera sale outlook: still weak as long as they keep their politics of feature limitation, which doesn't make upgrades necessary.
Smartphone sale outlook: at least still on a stable level, as probably not even 5% of the world population do have one with all modern timeless features.


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## douglaurent (Oct 27, 2016)

Woody said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Final result is: A 2016 smartphone just feels good and not like an expensive thing to buy for what it gives you. A 2016 Canon camera feels expensive, because you know the company has left out many things and didn't even pretend to try to release the best they can do. That is also the main difference to Sony. An A7RII or A99II feel much more as if it's the best Sony could come up with at the time.
> ...



As much as some here are kellyannconwaying the Canon results, they absolutely doesn't matter because the main facts are:
a) Canon does sell much less than years ago
b) Canon would sell much more, if they released a great mirrorless line already
c) Any Canon sales statistics doesn't help any photographer or filmmaker in the field, who's standing there with limited functions, or packed with twice as much equipment as necessary.


----------



## douglaurent (Oct 27, 2016)

dsut4392 said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > I just wrote the text below in another forum thread - much weaker sales than in the years before can't all be blamed to a Brexit or the rise of camera phones alone. This is also one of the reasons:
> ...



Nobody expects Canon or Nikon for lower than ever prices. Consumers ask them not to raise prices by 50-100% in times of zero inflation and interest rates!
Future smartphone sales and smartphone manufacturer politics are also completely irrelevant for a large sensor camera user that is irritated with Canon's offerings today.


----------



## douglaurent (Oct 27, 2016)

sanj said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



Smartphone repair service is very convenient and cheap these days, I just had a destroyed backcover exchanged within 30 minutes in a shopping mall. The people who upgrade their smartphones every year are the ones who can afford it and for lifestyle reasons, and know it's worth the money because it's heavily used - not because it's necessary to upgrade them.


----------



## IglooEater (Oct 27, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> IglooEater said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



Thanks! Always good to learn. The only place I disagree is your 10-15% profit. I don't know Canon's finances, but I'd be surprised if it's that high.


----------



## ritholtz (Oct 27, 2016)

sanj said:


> Market saturation is a reality. And happens regularly. Then a company comes along and brings along a revolutionary product (5d2, Iphone, iMac etc.) and sales hit the roof but the saturation cycle starts again.
> 
> Lets see if it is possible for a company to launch a camera which is innovative enough for many to want to sell off their current cameras and buy the new product.


I am expecting a phone with 1" sensor. Instead we are getting multiple tiny sensors.


----------



## Valvebounce (Oct 27, 2016)

Hi Sanj. 
I'm sorry, from your post I'm trying to work out how Canon lost out, instead of spending £3600 on a 5DIV you spent £5200 on a 1DxII. 
Seems Canon's ploy worked, they got 30% more of your money than you originally intended to spend! 
Have a good day and enjoy that 1DII sir. 

Cheers, Graham. 



sanj said:


> Yes. I also know of a lot of people you refuse to upgrade including people who shoot video because the 4k is not good enough. I also did not upgrade but bought 1dx2.


----------



## Valvebounce (Oct 27, 2016)

Hi Folks. 
It seems us Brits are responsible people, it doesn't matter what goes wrong we are responsible. 

Cheers, Graham. 
Ps I can't find a smiley with a tin hat or nomex suit!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 27, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> dsut4392 said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



As logical as pigs flying over snowbanks in hell. 

Canon's product differentiation strategy has been consistent, 'not putting their best in every model' as you put it. 5DII updated the sensor and nothing else, 6D AF not even as good as the 60D in most ways, etc. They have been and remain the market leader, even as Sony throws everything including the kitchen sink into some of their models. Tell us again how that's affected their market share?

dSLRs have been around much longer than smartphones, the markets are at different points but already the same trend is evident – double-digit smartphone growth is over.


----------



## Woody (Oct 27, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> As much as some here are kellyannconwaying the Canon results, they absolutely doesn't matter because the main facts are:
> a) Canon does sell much less than years ago



True... same for all other camera manufacturers out there.



douglaurent said:


> b) Canon would sell much more, if they released a great mirrorless line already



Nope, they will a little more, but not that much more. The size, weight and multifunctional capability of camera handphones are hard to beat.



douglaurent said:


> c) Any Canon sales statistics doesn't help any photographer or filmmaker in the field, who's standing there with limited functions, or packed with twice as much equipment as necessary.



Then, by all means, go find another camera that suits you better. Canon will continue to sell to many other buyers out there while you carry on whining.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 27, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> b) Canon would sell much more, if they released a great mirrorless line already



OMG, you sould tell Canon this immediately!! They're clearly suffering horribly without your expert knowledge and advice. 

BTW, who's definition of 'a great mirrorless line' should we be using? Yours, I suppose. :



douglaurent said:


> c) Any Canon sales statistics doesn't help any photographer or filmmaker in the field, who's standing there with limited functions, or packed with twice as much equipment as necessary.



True, but you're the one making claims about what Canon should and should not do...so ignoring the sales data makes you look disingenuous at best, more likely just foolish.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 27, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > dsut4392 said:
> ...



Strained industry comparisons are entertaining, but never accurate. 

The young, or those who have short, selective memories, misread the camera market. DSLRs, Mirrorless, etc., all constitute a small niche market that appeals to enthusiasts and professionals. The digital revolution temporarily changed that as millions of customers suddenly could get a cheap, digital camera that they could use to take and share pictures without having to send their film to a lab or build an entire darkroom. 

Point and shoot sales exploded, as did starter DSLRs. This attracted huge competition as the market grew. But, the smartphone killed off the point and shoot market and most buyers of entry-level DSLRs see no need to replace their cameras once a certain level of technological sophistication had been reached. 

Thus, the T3i became the most popular DSLR ever and there are no doubt many buyers who will still be using their T3is a decade from now, only replacing them if they have a desire for greater connectivity and easier wireless sharing of photos. Probably even more will let it sit on a shelf and instead substitute their smart phones.

Canon and Nikon take the long view. They knew that the boom times of the last decade would not last. (They did, however, hugely misread the impact of cell phones, as did every other camera manufacturer, but that's another essay).

In the face of the changing market, both companies are adapting new strategies. They are trying to squeeze more money out of the lucrative enthusiast market, which is better insulated from economic downturns and less price sensitive than either the professional or the entry level markets. 

The good news is that both Canon and Nikon have seen this all before and most of their history has been during periods of stable market demand, just as we are entering today. 

It is just plain delusional to suggest that the things some people on this forum would like to see in a camera has any impact whatsoever on worldwide trends in the market and in the economy that are driving the overall revenues of Canon, Nikon and Sony. 

It's as accurate as suggesting that because you happen to like popcorn with extra butter, that the entire movie industry's success is dependent on whether or not theaters offer popcorn with extra butter.


----------



## ritholtz (Oct 27, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...


Rumor is they are selling lot of mirrorless cameras this year. Canon has two M cameras (M3 and M10). Not sure if they are considered as great cameras by lot of folks here. But there are people buying them. We have to wait for numbers to confirm this story though.


----------



## rrcphoto (Oct 27, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> b) Canon would sell much more, if they released a great mirrorless line already



enthusiasts never dominate the camera market. consumers still do.

canon has been selling a ton of M10's and M3's. there's little proof that a higher end "great" mirrorless line would sell well.

Consider that Sony is still selling less ILC's via marketshare than they did when they simply had DSLR's.

So there's little actual logic in your words, outside of assuming that your own needs drive the market. They don't.


----------



## douglaurent (Oct 27, 2016)

Some do describe the Sony A7 mirrorless line as pretty irrelevant in terms of sales.
But wherever you look - if it's magazine ads and reports,blogs and forums, exhibitions, stores - the series seems to be extremely present and much better received than all the latest Canon cameras.

I know from store owners that Canon did never care about Sony products, but since 2015 they are worried.
In a few years Canon will have products with exactly all functions the A7 series is having today.
Does it mean Canon is stupid then because they care about this oh so irrelevant market?


----------



## douglaurent (Oct 27, 2016)

Currently there will be little common ground between the two types of Canon users that do write in this thread, the satisfied ones (1) and the complainers (2):

1) If you just have replaced your 2008 phone with a 2012 smartphone and don't need any more features, of course you are happy with it, and will the next 4 years. 

2) If you are always up to date and use the latest technology, own a 2016 smartphone and know which features all 2016 smartphones can have, you are disappointed when suddenly you get a 2012 smartphone to use for the next 4 years.

The 5D4, 1DX2 and other current Canon cameras are pretty much that 2012 smartphone. The Canon 1DC has been presented at Photokina in autumn 2012, and not that much has been added and improved since then. Some things even got worse (high ISO noise) or have not been implemented anymore.


----------



## rrcphoto (Oct 27, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Some do describe the Sony A7 mirrorless line as pretty irrelevant in terms of sales.
> But wherever you look - if it's magazine ads and reports,blogs and forums, exhibitions, stores - the series seems to be extremely present and much better received than all the latest Canon cameras.



which is irrelevant. In actuality, Sony focusing on selling less per year, but at a higher margin will hurt them in the long run.

Sony stumbled by dropping like a hot potato any momentum the A mount built up, they still haven't reclaimed that. In actuality, smaller cameras are not used nor wanted by obviously the vast majority of photographers - or everyone would have switched by now.


----------



## rrcphoto (Oct 27, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Currently there will be little common ground between the two types of Canon users that do write in this thread, the satisfied ones (1) and the complainers (2)



perhaps stop complaining, find a camera you like and move the .. on.

on one's forcing you to comment here. what's weird is people that whine and complain, when there is so much choice in the camera industry.

not to mention that none of this has anything to do with these forum thread anyways.. go complain on one of the other many threads you already are.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 27, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> I know from store owners that Canon did never care about Sony products, but since 2015 they are worried.



Yes, that makes perfect sense – Canon HQ typically dicsusses their long term, global strategy and their overall corporate mindset with local shop owners. Did those same shop owners tell you that "50% of the people are negative" about the 5DIV? Or was that your 40 close friends? It's so hard to keep all of your top-flight sources straight...




douglaurent said:


> Currently there will be little common ground between the two types of Canon users that do write in this thread



(1) those who are aware of and comprehend objective reality, and (2) those who believe their own personal wants and opinions determine objective reality. People in category (2) are sometimes referred to as delusional.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 27, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> ...
> In actuality, smaller cameras are not used nor wanted by obviously the vast majority of photographers - or everyone would have switched by now.



"Small cars are not wanted in the U.S of A. "
Corrrect, but only as long those small cars came in the form of Hyundai Ponys and the like. 
;D ;D ;D

Many people want *compact* AND *fully featured, well-performing* cars. Think of a BMW Mini (Cooper) for example. For many decades, small car meant weak engine, weak chassis, no automatic shift, no air condition, weak headlights, weak engine, weak windshield wipers, no leather seats, ugly hard plastics ... cheap, weak and measly all over! Until car manufacturers finally saw the light and catered to actual demand by offering CAPABLE compact cars. 

Nikon currently is only supplying the equivalent of a lawn tractor as compact ILC camera system (Nikon 1 series). 

Canon has been supplying the equivalent of that Hyundai Pony by way of the EOS M, M2, M10 cameras. M3 was maybe VW Polo level. M5 might represent Volkswagen Golf class. By no means a BMW 3 series yet .. that would be Sony A6500 or Fuji XT-2 ... ;D. 

A lot of people would have bought a camera like the EOS M5 already many years ago, had Canon cared to make one. A lot of people would have and would today buy Canon direct competitor models to Sony A 7 MkI and Mk II series. Compact and capable!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 27, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> "Small cars are not wanted in the U.S of A. "



Small cars became popular in the US because they are more power efficient. So far, the opposite appears to be true for MILCs.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Oct 27, 2016)

davidmurray said:


> I have to wonder what difficulties the Japanese people would be having when it comes to assessing the worth of something when so much of everything has 5 to 10 figure quantities of yen. Even a hamburger at McDonald's would have a 5 figure number. :-(



Nothing compared with the hyperinflation in Germany in the 1920s, but they simply replaced numbers by words, this note was 100.000.000.000.000 Reichsmark (but wouldn't pay a complete bread then):


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 27, 2016)

those who are aware of and comprehend objective reality might want to see a shrink!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 27, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> those who are aware of and comprehend objective reality might want to see a shrink!



Yeah, but those on the other end of the spectrum actually _need_ clinical help.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 27, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > those who are aware of and comprehend objective reality might want to see a shrink!
> ...



you must know...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 28, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> you must know...



Getting personal again? You said you were done with that. :


----------



## douglaurent (Oct 28, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Currently there will be little common ground between the two types of Canon users that do write in this thread, the satisfied ones (1) and the complainers (2)
> ...



Thanks, I already found the cameras I like. They are a 5D4, 1DX2, 5DsR - as well as A7R2, A7S2 and a few dozen other models I own. This is why I can compare, which leads to complaining against Canon.

If you think a possibly wrong product policy is definitely not part of a thread about Canon's shrinking profits, then why don't you ask the moderator to close this thread, as then obviously there is nothing to be said about the topic?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> If you think a possibly wrong product policy is definitely not part of a thread about Canon's shrinking profits, then why don't you ask the moderator to close this thread, as then obviously there is nothing to be said about the topic?



Perhaps it could be said about the topic that Canon's ILC sales were *+8%* in the most recent quarter. But maybe you were talking about their Office division because of all the copiers you own about which you're terribly disappointed with their lacking features, and all the print shop owners you've talked to who are intimately familiar with Canon's business strategy. :


----------



## rrcphoto (Oct 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> If you think a possibly wrong product policy is definitely not part of a thread about Canon's shrinking profits, then why don't you ask the moderator to close this thread, as then obviously there is nothing to be said about the topic?



yeah .. totally the WRONG product policy when unit sales are up this quarter 8% on ILC's .. not the make believe "market value" sales that Sony reports. and they have sold over half the ILC's shipped from all all manufacturers, AND .. their units sold is around the same as last year, while the the rest of the companies stagger.

so is that the WRONG product policy? or did you just look a the headline and summary and launch off on something that doesn't even make any sense?


----------



## sanj (Oct 28, 2016)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Sanj.
> I'm sorry, from your post I'm trying to work out how Canon lost out, instead of spending £3600 on a 5DIV you spent £5200 on a 1DxII.
> Seems Canon's ploy worked, they got 30% more of your money than you originally intended to spend!
> Have a good day and enjoy that 1DII sir.
> ...



 I never said Canon lost out with me. However I suspect it lost out on lot of people who were waiting to upgrade to Mark 4 but did not.
Sir.


----------



## mb66energy (Oct 28, 2016)

EOS 5D iv prices:
US: 3500 $ Germany: 4065 EUR = 4500 $

EOS 5Ds R:
US 3700 $ Germany: 3700 EUR = 4070 $

The newly introduced 5D iv is much more expensive (here in Germany) compared to the prices in the US while the prices of 5Ds R are at least comparable.

My problem:
100: If a camera is introduced, prices are high (for early adopters) but after roughly one year prices come down substantially. But now a new camera model with improved features and/or IQ is available which might be interesting to upgrade my current equipment. I wait until it is released.
GOTO 100

The other problem:
Just the 5D classic or the EOS M with their limited capabilities in terms of some IQ aspects and features deliver very good photos if I do everything right. The same for Canons basic non-L primes: They deliver very good IQ!
There is no urgent need to upgrade in my case.
O.k. I do no "action photography" that explains that I do not rely on fast + flexible AF ...

Maybe both "problems" explain, that the market is slower at the moment for a lot of "amateurs" who love taking photos but do not rely on e.g. pixel numbers for agencies or customers.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 28, 2016)

sanj said:


> Valvebounce said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Sanj.
> ...



one here...


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > If you think a possibly wrong product policy is definitely not part of a thread about Canon's shrinking profits, then why don't you ask the moderator to close this thread, as then obviously there is nothing to be said about the topic?
> ...



is this sales or units?
+8% versus what basis?
what was the performance of the comparison basis?
what was the product mix?
what were the ASPs?
how much of these units went into retailer warehouses vs. end customers?
what were the promotions run?


----------



## sanj (Oct 28, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Valvebounce said:
> ...



Lots there....

And I gave this another thought. Canon did loose out on me as I would have bought 5d4 for when I need smaller form/weight but will go with 5d3 as that would be a cheaper option and I would not miss anything that 5d4 provides.


----------



## M_S (Oct 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > "Small cars are not wanted in the U.S of A. "
> ...



Strange that I saw way more SUVs on my trip to the US than small cars then. 
This says also otherwise:
http://www.businessinsider.de/us-small-car-market-is-a-disaster-2016-8?r=US&IR=T

So. Again some of those neuro bullshit comments.


----------



## Woody (Oct 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> I know from store owners that Canon did never care about Sony products, but since 2015 they are worried.
> In a few years Canon will have products with exactly all functions the A7 series is having today.
> Does it mean Canon is stupid then because they care about this oh so irrelevant market?



Functionally, Canon and Sony products may be the same in a few years time. BUT... what about (i) ergonomics (ii) accessories (iii) ease of use (e.g., Sony only started including touchscreen recently for their A6500 while Canon had been doing it for years (iv) service quality or turn-around time?

I owned cameras with loads of functions (well ahead of their time) and sensor quality in the past, but the frustrating handling and awful service quality forced me to get rid of them. I would rather have cameras with lesser functions and poorer image quality but better ergonomics, reliability and service. 

YMMV. But based on Canon's market share, it will appear there are many folks out there who agree with me.


----------



## Valvebounce (Oct 28, 2016)

Hi Woody. 
Can I add one to your list please?
Finding that they have dropped the mount or the product range altogether due to the profit margin and known history of ditching whole product lines! 

Cheers, Graham. 



Woody said:


> Functionally, Canon and Sony products may be the same in a few years time. BUT... what about (i) ergonomics (ii) accessories (iii) ease of use (e.g., Sony only started including touchscreen recently for their A6500 while Canon had been doing it for years (iv) service quality or turn-around time?
> 
> I owned cameras with loads of functions (well ahead of their time) and sensor quality in the past, but the frustrating handling and awful service quality forced me to get rid of them. I would rather have cameras with lesser functions and poorer image quality but better ergonomics, reliability and service.
> 
> YMMV. But based on Canon's market share, it will appear there are many folks out there who agree with me.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> ...
> Perhaps it could be said about the topic that Canon's ILC sales were *+8%* in the most recent quarter.
> ...



Well, I would not hang my hopes for Canon on one quarterly result which is probably just a reflection of various product introductions or products becoming available in market(s) or some form of seasonalities. Also, are we talking units shipped? units sold? vs. previous quarter? or vs. same quarter previous year? +8% per se is pretty much meaningless without context.

I prefer to look at annual data rather than quarterly results and their fluctuations.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 28, 2016)

M_S said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



"Became popular" is not the same as "currently are the most popular."

#history
#1973oilcrisis
#OPECembargo

Hopefully these concepts are not too complex for you to comprehend, I wouldn't want to overtax your mental capacity.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > If you think a possibly wrong product policy is definitely not part of a thread about Canon's shrinking profits, then why don't you ask the moderator to close this thread, as then obviously there is nothing to be said about the topic?
> ...



is this sales or units?
+8% versus what basis?
what was the performance of the comparison basis?
what was the product mix?
what were the ASPs?
how much of these units went into retailer warehouses vs. end customers?
what were the promotions run?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 28, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> Well, I would not hang my hopes for Canon on one quarterly result which is probably just a reflection of various product introductions or products becoming available in market(s) or some form of seasonalities. Also, are we talking units shipped? units sold? vs. previous quarter? or vs. same quarter previous year? +8% per se is pretty much meaningless without context.
> 
> I prefer to look at annual data rather than quarterly results and their fluctuations.



Data are pretty much always presented as y/y, the +8% is ILC unit sales from the 3Q16 report, and their forecast for FY2016 is a 1% decline in y/y unit sales. Considering the state of the ILC market as a whole, that means a _big_ gain in market share for Canon.


----------



## Alex_M (Oct 28, 2016)

That store owner should stop smoking whatever he smokes as that stuff is seriously affects his mental capacity. My 12yo boy is better at predicting photo industry trends than that guy. pathetic..



neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > I know from store owners that Canon did never care about Sony products, but since 2015 they are worried.
> ...


----------



## rrcphoto (Oct 28, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



for the entire year so far, canon has sold around 3.89M cameras, around the same number as they did a year ago.

In a declining market, that's pretty good.

what's intriguing is that they are pretty bullish over their product mix now.

_"Enhancing our lineup in this way _(talking about EOS-M)_, we are growing our mirrorless camera market share in Europe and Americas, but especially in Asia, and this is now beginning to serve as an underpinning factor that supports our presence within the entire interchangeable-lens camera market. "
_

In other words, they see the need and also the emphasis on continuing the expand the EOS-M lineup as it's becoming an important factor to their presence in the camera market. That should be good news to you.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 28, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> _"Enhancing our lineup in this way _(talking about EOS-M)_, we are growing our mirrorless camera market share in Europe and Americas, but especially in Asia, and this is now beginning to serve as an underpinning factor that supports our presence within the entire interchangeable-lens camera market. "
> _
> 
> In other words, they see the need and also the emphasis on continuing the expand the EOS-M lineup as it's becoming an important factor to their presence in the camera market. That should be good news to you.



yes, they are slowly starting to see the light and follow my suggestions. ;D

Rebel + EF-S replacement is well under way already. One more round of updates on some Rebel bodies, then EOS M / EF-M will fully take over. End of mirrorslappers ... bottom up starting from entry level. As expected.


----------



## preppyak (Oct 28, 2016)

eguzowski said:


> Karma biting them in the A$$ for putting out a 5D Mark III with video specs from three years ago. A crop factor of 1.7 on 4k, no tilt screen, no 4k HDMI out, to many mega pixels to process for event photographers, dynamic range of old...I'm guessing they are dragging in other products as well.


Interestingly, the 5DIV is probably one of the few cameras keeping ILC sales in the positives for Canon. A lot of people upgraded off their 5D3 who wouldnt have otherwise bought a Canon camera this year.

Canon's long lost the prosumer video market, but, they are doing very well in the professional market for ILC because they have their target markets nailed.


----------



## douglaurent (Oct 28, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > If you think a possibly wrong product policy is definitely not part of a thread about Canon's shrinking profits, then why don't you ask the moderator to close this thread, as then obviously there is nothing to be said about the topic?
> ...



Vinyl Sales were up 50% last year. I think the music industry will be throwing daily champagne parties together with Canon over their growth, because total sales numbers, future outlooks and strength of competitors never did matter in business, right?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Vinyl Sales were up 50% last year. I think the music industry will be throwing daily champagne parties together with Canon over their growth, because total sales numbers, future outlooks and strength of competitors never did matter in business, right?



I might be able to find a less apt analogy, but I'd have to really work at it. Well done, as usual!


----------



## rrcphoto (Oct 29, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



try to come up with a less pathetic example to prove your point.

let's put it this way. it's your own opinion that canon has a wrong product policy. what's your credentials .. because canon actually looks like they actually know what they are doing.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 29, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> let's put it this way. it's your own opinion that canon has a wrong product policy. what's your credentials .. because canon actually looks like they actually know what they are doing.



Oh, he's explained all that. He uses cameras. He knows a few other people who do, too, and sometimes they talk. Plus, he recently revealed that he's chatted with a shop owner or two who have intimate knowledge of Canon's business strategy and mindset. With credentials like that, he clearly knows more about the camera industry than Canon themselves.


----------



## douglaurent (Oct 29, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > let's put it this way. it's your own opinion that canon has a wrong product policy. what's your credentials .. because canon actually looks like they actually know what they are doing.
> ...



You are absolutely right. What could a large corporation possibly do wrong? That's if as a government would fail. We all know that they only do what's best for the people, so there's no possible legitimate way to criticize them.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 29, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



So, because a company or government may fail, it logically follows that any schmo off the street is correct when criticizing that company or government. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. You keep tossing out those astounding pearls of wisdom and logic, it's really impressive!


----------



## takesome1 (Oct 29, 2016)

The doom and gloom and the defense of Canon's buisness wisdom seems to go in circles. People are regularly insulted for their buisness sense.

But the important things that really indicate if Canon will be in buisness in a few years are seldom mentioned.
CAJ is selling just slighty over its book value right now at a PE of about 18. 
CAJ's debt load is insignificant which is very positive.
Canon can be miss managed for years before they are in any kind of danger of colapse.

I have held CAJ in the past, would I say that Canon is on top of the game and bringing value to their shareholders? Over the past few years, no. The stock went from $40 plus to less than $30. The dividends are still there but if you held the stock over the last few years you will need several more years before you make up the loss with dividends.

Canon seems to be a value stock right now and looks very attractive, but where are they going? They are fighitng with Nikon and Sony over a sector that is shrinking and changing. If Canon tanks it will have nothing to do with DSLR sales, and everything to do with its inability to adapt to a changing world. Lucky for Canon that DSLR's are not there only income stream.


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## Valvebounce (Oct 29, 2016)

Hi Folks. 
I'd just like to point out that you are all better people with useful input to these forums when you are not mud slinging and name calling. 

Cheers, Graham.


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## douglaurent (Oct 30, 2016)

Main problem with Canon is that they act as if it was still 1960-2012, when they probably indeed knew what they were doing. But in the last few years rapidly keeping up competitors other than Nikon, smartphone cameras, mirrorless cameras, video in photo cameras, media budgets, social media, internet shopping and other factors did change the whole business and its pace.

Releasing a new camera model every 4 years, adding a few features and making sure to be a bit ahead of Nikon is not enough anymore. The best way would be to release products that overfulfil expectations and include everything you can implement at that time, even if that means that there is no clue which features are left to add in future models. 

Sorry to put that kind of pressure on manufacturers, but the prices they charge give the right to demand it.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 30, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Main problem with Canon is that they act as if it was still 1960-2012, when they probably indeed knew what they were doing. But in the last few years rapidly keeping up competitors other than Nikon, smartphone cameras, mirrorless cameras, video in photo cameras, media budgets, social media, internet shopping and other factors did change the whole business and its pace.



except there's no basis in actual fact that they don't know exactly what they are doing and what you think they should do is based upon your narrow naval gazing point of view.

if canon was so indeed behind the curve, their products would not be selling for as you say "the prices they are charging for them".

not to mention .. enthusiasts don't rule the roost when it comes to camera systems, consumers still do.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 30, 2016)

takesome1 said:


> They are fighitng with Nikon and Sony over a sector that is shrinking and changing. If Canon tanks it will have nothing to do with DSLR sales, and everything to do with its inability to adapt to a changing world. Lucky for Canon that DSLR's are not there only income stream.



but canon's long term plan is obviously to minimize the impact of a smaller camera market. the purchase of Axis and Toshiba medical stated that really.

Sony isn't making any headway in the falling market, and Nikon's marketshare is shrinking.


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## takesome1 (Oct 30, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> *Sorry to put that kind of pressure on manufacturers, but the prices they charge give the right to demand it.*



The flaw is the price they charge and the amount you pay give you no right to demand any future development. The money you pay for a new lens or body is for that lens or body only.


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## takesome1 (Oct 30, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > They are fighitng with Nikon and Sony over a sector that is shrinking and changing. If Canon tanks it will have nothing to do with DSLR sales, and everything to do with its inability to adapt to a changing world. Lucky for Canon that DSLR's are not there only income stream.
> ...



Anything they are doing to minimize impact at this point is damage control. They didn't make any moves quick enough and it reflects in Canon's stock price.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 30, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> The best way would be to release products that overfulfil expectations and include everything you can implement at that time, even if that means that there is no clue which features are left to add in future models.



Well, when you own a company that makes cameras, you can decide 'the best way'. But in the case of Canon, it's not your call. And given that their status in the market, including the fact that they're currently gaining market share, there's not only no evidence to support your viewpoint, the data suggest you don't know what the heck you're talking about. 




douglaurent said:


> Sorry to put that kind of pressure on manufacturers, but the prices they charge give the right to demand it.



Amusing that you think you can put pressure on and make demands of Canon. Are you a corporate officer or a major shareholder? No, I didn't think so.


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## Ozarker (Oct 30, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > The best way would be to release products that overfulfil expectations and include everything you can implement at that time, even if that means that there is no clue which features are left to add in future models.
> ...



What's that quote from that movie with Clint Eastwood? Oh yeah, "You're a legend in your own mind." (AKA: Doug Laurent)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZstgDZoLkA


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## romanr74 (Oct 30, 2016)

I only see self-inflated opinions in these "business threads", on both ends. That some constantly describe their opinions as "objective reality" doesn't add to credibility...


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## AvTvM (Oct 30, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Amusing that you think you can put pressure on and make demands of Canon. Are you a corporate officer or a major shareholder? No, I didn't think so.



no, even better: i am an - actual and potential - customer of Canon. me and my wallet decide over every single product Canon makes and over their corporate fate ... with ultimate power. and as a customer i have every right to *demand* what kind of gear my suppliers shall provide. during the last 3 years canon has not been supplying the gear i want (powerful, small MILC systems, both APS-C and FF-sensor) so i have purchased much less from them in the past few years. and 5D3 definitely was my last mirrorslapper. 

obviously, it is not only me, but many other Canon customers have done the same, as evidenced in by the shrinking number of units sold. 

economy is really simple and straightforward. fulfill market demand or go under.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 30, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> I only see self-inflated opinions in these "business threads", on both ends. That some constantly describe their opinions as "objective reality" doesn't add to credibility...



Then you're not seeing well, or you're not able to comprehend what you read. 

Or maybe you just think statements like, "_Canon predicts only a 1% drop in FY16 y/y ILC sales in a market where overall ILC shipments are dropping much more, which means they're likely gaining significant market share and further enhancing their domination of the ILC market,_" and, "_The 5DIV is the #2 best-selling dSLR on Amazon.com, suggesting it's quite popular_," carry the same objective credibility as statements like, "_Main problem with Canon is that they act as if it was still 1960-2012, when they probably indeed knew what they were doing,_" and, "_Subjectively 50% of all people are disappointed with the 5DIV._" If you can't make a distinction between a fact-based argument and unsupported opinion, I feel sad for you.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 30, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> no, even better: i am an - actual and potential - customer of Canon. me and my wallet decide over every single product they make. and over their corporate fate. with ultimate power. ... fulfill market demand or go under.



Lol. Talk about a self-inflated opinion! _You_ are not the market. To Canon, your individual purchasing decisions are as irrelevant as a single bacterium feeding on whale excrement at the bottom of the ocean.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 30, 2016)

takesome1 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > takesome1 said:
> ...



true .. but when you think about it, M&A's don't happen over night. Ones like Toshiba take the right kind of circumstances to become available (ie: toshiba getting into alot of trouble)

Canon's main businesses were two basic lines printers and cameras. both of which have seen major market downturns and shifts the last 5 years.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 30, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> as evidenced in by the shrinking number of units sold.



what shrinking number of units sold?

you know what's stupid? this could have been an interesting thread because canon said alot of "interesting" things that involve people that use their cameras, and most people take the top line item and push their agenda.

I would have gladly rather have had 8 pages of discussion over what this means for canon's ILC product mix between DSLR and MILC and what the future may hold. for example we're still seeing Canon push a ton of M's into Asia - evidenced by what they are saying about the M's. It sounds like they are expecting / wanting the M5 to go big or go home in Europe and USA. But that's pretty small potatoes you'd think compared to the volumes from Asia.

instead a bunch of 5D Mark IV whining got interjected into this thread that isn't even relevant.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 30, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> instead a bunch of 5D Mark IV whining got interjected into this thread that isn't even relevant.



Of course it's relevant. 50% of *all people* are disappointed with it. AvTvM didn't buy one. Clearly, Canon is *******, all you have to do is connect the dots!

;D


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## rrcphoto (Oct 30, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > instead a bunch of 5D Mark IV whining got interjected into this thread that isn't even relevant.
> ...



it's been out for 2 months and still #2 in DSLR on amazon. which is a little remarkable for such a loser camera.

#1 best seller in bhphotovideo as well.

Kind of strange that I don't see the A99 II up there which is the holy panacea of SLR photography.


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## Orangutan (Oct 30, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Amusing that you think you can put pressure on and make demands of Canon. Are you a corporate officer or a major shareholder? No, I didn't think so.
> ...



This is similar to your power at the ballot box: you can express your personal expectations for the politicians; however, in the end, it's the aggregate expression of expectation that counts. For consumer products it's the aggregate purchasing that counts.


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## romanr74 (Oct 30, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > I only see self-inflated opinions in these "business threads", on both ends. That some constantly describe their opinions as "objective reality" doesn't add to credibility...
> ...



the only one seeing well and thinking clear on this forum is you and you point that out whenever you can. however sometimes you do that when you are wrong or half-right at best.


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## Orangutan (Oct 30, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



Examples please?


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## romanr74 (Oct 30, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



the legal mandate of a corporation...


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## takesome1 (Oct 30, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Have you heard? The election is rigged.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 30, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



I missed where I was proven wrong on that _one_ example (I'm sure you understand the difference between singular and plural). Care to elaborate? Just a heads-up, if you're going to cite the NYT article from April, 2015 entitled, "Corporations do not have to maximize profits," do remember to point out that it's from their _Opinion Pages_ section, and please also include the adjacent article entitled, "A duty to shareholder value," which concludes the opposite. 

Incidentally, I have been wrong several times on CR, and I have no problem admitting it when it's pointed out.


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## romanr74 (Oct 30, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > Orangutan said:
> ...



no, smartass, i do not know the difference between plural and singular... (or i just dont care). you're pointing out yourself that there are conflicting opinions. so your clear position was half-true at best but that didn't keep you from attributing me the business acumen of jello when i challenged the correctness of your statement. i'm sure we agree that makes you very credible...


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 30, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> no, smartass...



Name calling? You're sounding more credible and erudite by the minute... :

As for 'conflicting opinions', the same can be said about the shape of the earth, but that doesn't make the position of those who state that the earth is spherical 'half-true at best', or add credibility to members of the Flat Earth Society.


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## romanr74 (Oct 30, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > no, smartass...
> ...



one of your favourites. always interesting again. yet without anything meaningful to say, why not...  

so law scholars discuss the meaning and applicability of this court decision, yet neuro is cristal clear about who of them are the flat earth society. convincing to me...


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## dak723 (Oct 30, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> no, even better: i am an - actual and potential - customer of Canon. me and my wallet decide over every single product Canon makes and over their corporate fate ... with ultimate power. and as a customer i have every right to *demand* what kind of gear my suppliers shall provide. during the last 3 years canon has not been supplying the gear i want (powerful, small MILC systems, both APS-C and FF-sensor) so i have purchased much less from them in the past few years. and 5D3 definitely was my last mirrorslapper.
> 
> obviously, it is not only me, but many other Canon customers have done the same, as evidenced in by the shrinking number of units sold.
> 
> economy is really simple and straightforward. fulfill market demand or go under.



This explains a lot about why some folks are so arrogant on this forum.

"...as a customer i have every right to *demand* what kind of gear my suppliers shall provide."

No, as a customer you have every right to buy the products you want from the companies you want. You have absolutely to right to DEMAND anything. "my suppliers" ?? No, Canon, or any other camera company, is not your supplier. A supplier is someone who works under contract for someone else. Canon does not work for you. They are not your supplier. 

The incredible negative attitude towards Canon - especially towards their attitude when it comes to mirrorless is becoming more amusing the more I learn about mirrorless and lens design. Based on what I have learned is this: Sony came out with their FF mirrorless cameras a couple years ago. Apparently they were designed to be APS-C originally, but then Sony decided to switch to FF. They did so without changing the flange distance, which is arguably way too short for FF lens design with the current sensor technology. Gear-heads, seeing a new revolutionary new product, flood the internet with praise for these cameras despite poor lens performance and a limited lens selection due to the short flange distance issue. Sony - despite providing a below par product - is considered the tech leader that everyone else should follow. Canon is criticized unmercifully for "being conservative" and "lagging behind." Maybe, just maybe, Canon is right in waiting until these problems are worked out with curved sensors or other technology that will bring more light rays hitting the sensor at a more efficient angle.

Who knows if Canon will slip because of all of these negative reviews and the constant criticism. But personally, I would prefer a company such as Canon, that waits until the technology is worked out and perfected before releasing a new product, as opposed to Sony that produces new products that have unresolved issues that are yet to be solved.


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## AvTvM (Oct 31, 2016)

Canon is one possible supplier of imaging gear to me. not more, not less. i am their boss. if i dont buy their crap, they can shove it up theirs. 

i fully agree that Sony made a huge mistake in using their Crop-sensor E-mount also for FF sensors. that's why i am DEMANDING from canon to bring a fully competitive FF Milc with a generously dimensioned native EF-X lens mount: flange distance 22mm, throat diameter 48mm ... and design of optically great, compact and affordable lenses will be a piece of cake. if not, they can shove it up theirs. lowly asian supplier. i am customer. me and my wallet are king. we rule suprrme over imaging gesr makers. economy is really simple. and brutal for suppliers, if they dont deliver what we, their customers and rulers demand.


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## Orangutan (Oct 31, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> Canon is one possible supplier of imaging gear to me. not more, not less. i am their boss....i am customer. me and my wallet are supreme kong. economy is really simple. and brutal for suppliers.



By that reasoning, each consumer is, individually, Canon's "boss." How are they to know which boss's instructions to follow?


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## rrcphoto (Oct 31, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> I only see self-inflated opinions in these "business threads", on both ends. That some constantly describe their opinions as "objective reality" doesn't add to credibility...



keep on thinking that. there's only one reality. the ILC portion of the quarter went well for Canon.

it's other's "objective" reality that take the profits of an entire global corporation with multiple business lines, and the effect of a stronger yen and somehow manage tie that back to a specific camera release or two.

That's a reality that has to come with it's own special purple skied unicorn world.


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## AvTvM (Oct 31, 2016)

yea, dig that, Canon Defense League!

that us entirely Canon's problem. they shall work it out. but if they dont supply what i want, i will not buy. and they will suffer. not me. perfectly describes the current situation. canon needs customers like me much more than i need them and their mirrorslappers. really relish that. good on them!

i will just use my current gear snotjer year or buy stuff from another supplier. canon however will write poor numbers, executives eill lose bonuses, shareholders will lose dividends, stock will lose value, CEOs will get fired ... and all sorts of hell will break lose on their end. i have zero risk. they need to peddle their stuff to me. i am at liberty to buy or shun them. they are dependent on every single one of us. none of us is in any way dependent on Canon. at wirdt i'll have to dump a few canon lenses at a loss, which does not ruon me in any way. absolutely fantastic situation!


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 31, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> that's why i am DEMANDING from canon to
> i am customer. me and my wallet are king.



Well, good luck with that, Your Majesty. :


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## AvTvM (Oct 31, 2016)

absolutely thrilled to see the Canon Defense League members in full swing. 
keep writing guys. does not change the bitter reality for canon in any way. either they supply what i want or i dont buy. and neither will many others. lower mirrorslapper unit sales. shrinking progits. lower bonuses in tokyo. fired ceos. etc.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 31, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> absolutely thrilled to see the Canon Defense League members in full swing.
> keep writing guys. does not change the bitter reality for canon in any way. either they supply what i want or i dont buy. and neither will many others. lower mirrorslapper unit sales. shrinking progits. lower bonuses in tokyo. fired ceos. etc.



if you think the fate of canon rests on one camera .. I really want what you are pumping into your veins.


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## douglaurent (Oct 31, 2016)

CanonFanBoy said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



Yes I'm a crazy maverick with crazy rare demands - like those 50-80% of users who bought Canon DSLRs in former years, and now look at the features of new Canon cameras and their high prices, and don't buy them anymore (which is clearly demonstrated by all sales numbers). 

At least I am happy there are willingless Canon fanboys out there who eat everything, as even lower sales numbers would make new products even more expensive. The current status of approx half/half happy and unsatisfied customers might be a good mix to make Canon think.


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## Orangutan (Oct 31, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> either they supply what i want or i dont buy.



That's true of all brands. Maybe that's why you haven't bought into another brand -- because no other brand has produced what you want either.



> and neither will many others.



That's what we've been trying to explain: "many others" have pushed Canon's market share up to where it is now. From the business perspective, should Canon listen to you and your "many others" or to the "many others" who keep buying their bodies?

If you explain the features you want and why you want them you'll get very little criticism -- everyone is entitled to their own preferences. When you imply that your preferences are shared by the majority of buyers, when the only good evidence that exists is to the contrary, then you can expect to be reminded, repeatedly, of that contrary evidence.

It's very simple: if you have reasonable evidence that your preferences are shared by many others I'd be happy to see it.


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## Valvebounce (Oct 31, 2016)

Hi Folks. 
I'll pledge my quid in the collective pot to buy his lenses at a slight loss to him, just to get him on the way to another brands forum to bitch on! ;D

Cheers, Graham. 



AvTvM said:


> i'll have to dump a few canon lenses at a loss, which does not ruon me in any way. absolutely fantastic situation!


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## Roo (Oct 31, 2016)

In the latest financial news, after observing the Canon Rumours forum for sometime, Canon has decided to continue with it's current business strategy for it's camera division but at the same time is diverging into the food industry. A spokesman for the company said "We're really seeing a trend for major growth in the popcorn industry..."


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## Orangutan (Oct 31, 2016)

Roo said:


> In the latest financial news, after observing the Canon Rumours forum for sometime, Canon has decided to continue with it's current business strategy for it's camera division but at the same time is diverging into the food industry. A spokesman for the company said "We're really seeing a trend for major growth in the popcorn industry..."



;D


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 31, 2016)

Roo said:


> In the latest financial news, after observing the Canon Rumours forum for sometime, Canon has decided to continue with it's current business strategy for it's camera division but at the same time is diverging into the food industry. A spokesman for the company said "We're really seeing a trend for major growth in the popcorn industry..."



Amazing coincidence, I just bought a Gold Medal commercial popcorn machine, the kind on a cart, not one of the toy ones either.

I'm having some popcorn now while I sit back and read the comments. ;D


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## Ozarker (Oct 31, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > either they supply what i want or i dont buy.
> ...



He loves Sony. He just would rather use and hate Canon products than make the switch. Besides that, he thinks he wields incredible power in Canon's board room.

Delusions of grandeur make up a large part of his psyche. Sad, really.


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## Orangutan (Oct 31, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Roo said:
> 
> 
> > In the latest financial news, after observing the Canon Rumours forum for sometime, Canon has decided to continue with it's current business strategy for it's camera division but at the same time is diverging into the food industry. A spokesman for the company said "We're really seeing a trend for major growth in the popcorn industry..."
> ...



Do you prefer classic palm oil or some of the newer alternatives? How about butter? Does the machine distribute it nicely, or does it soak some kernels while leaving others dry? Oh, also: soda or beer to wash it down? ;D


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## Orangutan (Oct 31, 2016)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



A few weeks ago he was quite clear: he simply believes he's such a typical representative of the buying public that his wants/needs must necessarily represents millions of others. It's tough to talk someone out of a logical hole that deep.


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## sanj (Oct 31, 2016)

50% drop is alarming. Something is amiss somewhere. Whatever it is I hope Canon sorts it out, I do want them to continue manufacturing rock solid cameras and lenses. 

We can argue all we like but 50% drop means something seriously is wrong.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 31, 2016)

sanj said:


> 50% drop is alarming. Something is amiss somewhere. Whatever it is I hope Canon sorts it out, I do want them to continue manufacturing rock solid cameras and lenses.
> 
> We can argue all we like but 50% drop means something seriously is wrong.



actually .. it doesn't.

Operating profit can ebb and flow especially for export companies that sell externally more than domestically.

and this is canon overall - not just cameras and lenses.


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## romanr74 (Oct 31, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > 50% drop is alarming. Something is amiss somewhere. Whatever it is I hope Canon sorts it out, I do want them to continue manufacturing rock solid cameras and lenses.
> ...



Correct. This is rootcaused in a difference in currency mix between revenues (mostly outside JPY) and costs (higher JPY share than in sales). A strengthening of the JPY inevitably leads to an overproportional decline in revenue vs. cost in reporting currency, hence to a drop in profit.


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## Woody (Nov 1, 2016)

Woody said:


> So, from Jan to Sep 2016, Canon has sold 3.89 million (Q1=1.02M, Q2=1.5M, Q3=1.37M) ILCs.
> 
> Waiting for CIPA numbers for the same period... so that we can estimate Canon's market share so far... (the first half of 2016 has seen Canon dominating the ILC market with nearly 50% market share).



CIPA's worldwide shipment numbers from Jan to Sep 2016 is out:

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201609_e.pdf

Total number is 8,068,085.

So, Canon's shipment of 3.89 million ILCs in the same period translates into 48% market shares.

Not too shabby.


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## justaCanonuser (Nov 1, 2016)

mb66energy said:


> EOS 5D iv prices:
> US: 3500 $ Germany: 4065 EUR = 4500 $
> 
> EOS 5Ds R:
> ...



Yeah, unless the 5D4 price here in Europe doesn't drop substantially, I'll get my 5D3 repaired when its shutter will be broken (120.000 actuations so far) or get a new or refurbished replacement 5D3 then. I can live well with my 5D3, I know its main weaknesses (shadow banding, sub optimal metering system) and I still believe that most settings in which you need 15 stops of DR are simply bad photography. And if I'd need good 4k video I'd go for Panasonic anyway...


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## justaCanonuser (Nov 1, 2016)

Woody said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > So, from Jan to Sep 2016, Canon has sold 3.89 million (Q1=1.02M, Q2=1.5M, Q3=1.37M) ILCs.
> ...



All those Canon haters on DPR working so hard, posting thousands of troll comments, and obviously they all wasted their energy for nothing ;D. Poor boys (pretty sure they all are male), Canon still performs quite well in a difficult market. Good news for us Canon users, because it looks like the system will remain stable in the long term - as it did so far.


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## Woody (Nov 1, 2016)

Oh, for you nay-sayers who think the world of Canon is crashing down because they announced a 50% reduction in profits for the first 3Q of this year due to a rising yen, you should read what's happening to your beloved Sony et al.

From https://sg.finance.yahoo.com/news/sony-profit-dives-strong-yen-091503181.html

"... The electronics giant, which has been shedding assets as part of a broad restructuring, reported a 26 billion yen ($248 million) net profit in the six months through September, *down nearly 78 percent from a year earlier*.

Revenue in the first half of Sony's fiscal year fell more than 10 percent to 3.3 trillion yen "primarily due to the impact of foreign exchange rates", Sony said...

Japanese firms have benefited from a weak currency in recent years, which allows them to make their products cheaper overseas.

But the yen, which is seen as a safe bet, shot up since the start of the year as world markets were lashed by wild volatility and as uncertainty over Britain's decision to leave the EU stoked demand for less risky investments...

*Panasonic* has focused attention on lesser-known businesses, including energy and an auto division that makes various products found in vehicles, from electrical components to navigation systems.

But on Monday *the firm blamed a strong yen and a poor showing in its solar panel business for cutting its profit and sales outlook*.

*Sony* has also warned that a pair of deadly quakes in Japan in April would dent its bottom line...

*The once-iconic firm has been working to stay profitable after years of huge losses*, under a painful restructuring that has included layoffs and asset sales..."

There, that's reality for you.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 1, 2016)

Woody said:


> Oh, for you nay-sayers who think the world of Canon is crashing down because they announced a 50% reduction in profits for the first 3Q of this year due to a rising yen, you should read what's happening to your beloved Sony et al.



oh no, it's JUST canon 

interesting.. they are forcasting 3.8 million cameras (including P&S) down from 6.1 a year prior.

another huge drop, three years in a row. Sony doesn't break out ILC's probably because they are too scared that people will find out the real facts.


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## AUGS (Nov 10, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, for you nay-sayers who think the world of Canon is crashing down because they announced a 50% reduction in profits for the first 3Q of this year due to a rising yen, you should read what's happening to your beloved Sony et al.
> ...



Or Nikon.... 1000s of jobs to go there....
http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Nikon-to-cut-1-000-jobs-in-Japan

But... its not due to Cameras. Nikons camera sales are up some 50+ percent. Nikon is being smart, their Semiconductor Fabs are losing money due to poor sales so they are getting ahead of the curve by re-assigning workers, and may offer voluntary early retirements or layoffs.

The Japanese companies still do not layoff employees wholesale like US companies do, but they are finding ways to shift and retrain the workforce as well as offer early retirements.

They do rent contract workers, and, since they are not employees of the company, they don't count them when their jobs go away.


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