# Why doesn't gray cards work?



## Viggo (Oct 20, 2016)

Hi guys and gals!

I recently bought one of those CBL (color balancing lens) that is supposed to be a superb tool for getting correct wb.

But I can't get it to work! I mean in ambient light it seems okay, if anything it might be a very small tad warm. BUT in artificial light it gives blue images. Not as blue as a blue filter, but very cold and not at all neutral as it's suppose to.

I feel like I have tried everything with it, longer shutter so no issues from flickering, LED, tungsten and fluorescent light all come out blue. I tried with my ColorChecker Passport that has a gray card and that works, but it's fragile and I use it for color profiling and then kept away so not really and option to use as my main gray card. Since I'm colorblind it takes forever to do this in post and usually doesn't come out correctly and with bad tints.

Why does it fail so miserably??


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## eli452 (Oct 20, 2016)

I do not know what went wrong with your tool, but if all goes well with a gray card, i'll go with that. If not the colorChecker, I'll recommend WhiBal White Balance G7 Pocket Kit https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/716944-REG/WhiBal_WB7PK_White_Balance_G7_Pocket.html very durable and easy to use (I have the G6) 30$.


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## Viggo (Oct 20, 2016)

eli452 said:


> I do not know what went wrong with your tool, but if all goes well with a gray card, i'll go with that. If not the colorChecker, I'll recommend WhiBal White Balance G7 Pocket Kit https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/716944-REG/WhiBal_WB7PK_White_Balance_G7_Pocket.html very durable and easy to use (I have the G6) 30$.



Thanks for the tip! I'll look into that one as well. Very frustrating this...


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## pwp (Oct 20, 2016)

eli452 said:


> I do not know what went wrong with your tool, but if all goes well with a gray card, i'll go with that. If not the colorChecker, I'll recommend WhiBal White Balance G7 Pocket Kit https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/716944-REG/WhiBal_WB7PK_White_Balance_G7_Pocket.html very durable and easy to use (I have the G6) 30$.



Also a long term user of WhiBal. They're durable and accurate. Though after my first year I saw a slight, inexplicable color shift towards magenta, so contacted WhiBal. They sensibly asked if it was dirty. Hah! It was. 

So if you have one which is being handled all the time, give it a scrub when you're doing the dishes tonight. Be amazed! 

BTW you can cut B&H out of the deal and buy direct from the very amiable Michael Tapes.
http://michaeltapesdesign.com/whibal.html

-pw


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## Alex_M (Oct 20, 2016)

Grey card WB works better in mixed lighting situations as the card located and being lit by the same light as your subject. whether with colour balancing cap you get WB for the colour hitting your camera lens front. that can make quite a difference especially in Fluro/ day light lighting scenarios... plus flickering...


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## chauncey (Oct 20, 2016)

Aah, it might seem a ridiculous question but, if you're color blind, how do you know it doesn't work?

FWIW, I only use it on portraits when colors are vital...otherwise, I adjust by eye for artistic intent,
difficult in your case.


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## Viggo (Oct 20, 2016)

Thanks for the tips guys!

Ha! How I know it works? I can tell the difference between blue and yellow, but sitting in front of my screen trying to get warmer or cooler with out a tint of magenta or green is very hard. Because then it's the difference between slight yellow/slight green or slight blue/slight magenta.


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## romanr74 (Oct 20, 2016)

Alex_M said:


> Grey card WB works better in mixed lighting situations as the card located and being lit by the same light as your subject. whether with colour balancing cap you get WB for the colour hitting your camera lens front. that can make quite a difference especially in Fluro/ day light lighting scenarios... plus flickering...



+10


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## pwp (Oct 20, 2016)

chauncey said:


> Aah, it might seem a ridiculous question but, if you're color blind, how do you know it doesn't work?



If you're color blind, you'd quickly learn to learn and trust the RGB numbers. Sometimes my perceptual analysis is somewhat off, and I simply have to trust the numbers. 

-pw


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## tonyespofoto (Oct 20, 2016)

I don't know why you are not getting a proper result with your white balance tool. I would guess that there is something wrong with your procedure. If you just use a grey card, take a photo of it illuminated by the same light that will illuminate your picture (for example, don't put the card in shadow, when your photo will be of a sunlit area), then set the resulting image as a custom white balance, you will get neutral tones. This has worked for me (and presumably many others) thousands of times. That said, neutral color balance is a somewhat subjective thing. You can be scientifically right ( read the grey card and have R=G=B) and still have a photo that is aesthetically lacking. This is often true with portraits. However, a neutral color balance is a great place to start.
I use an ExpoDisc as well as a grey card. They work differently and give similar but somewhat different results. The grey card is photographed in ambient light, as described above. But with the ExpoDisc, you point it at the light source. I start any assignment with both. Since I shoot RAW, in post, I can assign either result as the proper white balance for all the resulting photos. My experience is that usually the more pleasing result comes from the ExpoDisc. And here is a very interesting tidbit. If you read the grey card in ACR, R will equal G and B, within a couple of points. If you read the ExpoDisc file, the numbers will not be equal. If you neutralize the ExpoDisc file, then apply that to all the files, you will not be happy with the result. On the other hand, if you just use the ExpoDisc file as shot and apply it to all your images, you'll be pleased.
I can't really say why you are getting poor results with your white balance tool. I can only say that I have used the above procedures thousands of times, always with good results. As a guess, I would suggest that you point your camera (with the tool attached) at the light source and use that as your custom white balance. You could also check the instructions that came with your tool. Perhaps you are doing something wrong.
Addressing the color blindness issue, using a standard grey card as described above would give you the best chance of successfully "doing it by the numbers", which might be the best way to proceed in your case.


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## Viggo (Oct 20, 2016)

tonyespofoto said:


> I don't know why you are not getting a proper result with your white balance tool. I would guess that there is something wrong with your procedure. If you just use a grey card, take a photo of it illuminated by the same light that will illuminate your picture (for example, don't put the card in shadow, when your photo will be of a sunlit area), then set the resulting image as a custom white balance, you will get neutral tones. This has worked for me (and presumably many others) thousands of times. That said, neutral color balance is a somewhat subjective thing. You can be scientifically right ( read the grey card and have R=G=B) and still have a photo that is aesthetically lacking. This is often true with portraits. However, a neutral color balance is a great place to start.
> I use an ExpoDisc as well as a grey card. They work differently and give similar but somewhat different results. The grey card is photographed in ambient light, as described above. But with the ExpoDisc, you point it at the light source. I start any assignment with both. Since I shoot RAW, in post, I can assign either result as the proper white balance for all the resulting photos. My experience is that usually the more pleasing result comes from the ExpoDisc. And here is a very interesting tidbit. If you read the grey card in ACR, R will equal G and B, within a couple of points. If you read the ExpoDisc file, the numbers will not be equal. If you neutralize the ExpoDisc file, then apply that to all the files, you will not be happy with the result. On the other hand, if you just use the ExpoDisc file as shot and apply it to all your images, you'll be pleased.
> I can't really say why you are getting poor results with your white balance tool. I can only say that I have used the above procedures thousands of times, always with good results. As a guess, I would suggest that you point your camera (with the tool attached) at the light source and use that as your custom white balance. You could also check the instructions that came with your tool. Perhaps you are doing something wrong.
> Addressing the color blindness issue, using a standard grey card as described above would give you the best chance of successfully "doing it by the numbers", which might be the best way to proceed in your case.



Thanks!

I think I might have a partial solution to my issues (btw, the "user manual" is just marketing bs). I held the CBL so that my source covered it with light and it didnt work. I now try to place it paralell to the camera sensor and shoot my shot from the same ange I shoot the CBL, that seems to work better. I'll have to give last nights test a new go tonight when the ambient is gone and can't affect the readings. 

It seems though that my eyes are playing tricks on me, and I shot the non-reflective grey side of the CBL and included it in my pictures and it seems all RGB values are with 0,3 points, so it must be right IF that grey is neutral. I kind of have to assume that since it costs 140 usd and is made to be neutral, lol. When I used all my greycards in that way no one was way off the others.

I usually don't think the "correct" wb is the best looking, but as you said, I must have starting point. And if that starting point is correct I use my ColorChecker and warm up the image with the eyedropper later. 

I also discovered today that Google Chrome makes my images grey and flat although everything is sRGB. In Safari it looks like it does in Photoshop.

Left is Chrome and Safari right. Just screenshot.


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