# Impressions of the weekend, feedback appreciated



## Knut Skywalker (Dec 8, 2013)

I shot a party friday night and got some results that I wanted to share with you guys. I'm pretty happy with the shots i got this weekend. I was experimenting quite a lot and it was paying of for me. I could definetly up my game in the nightclub photography area and gain some experience with color gels and off-camera flash. 

The lens I used was a Tokina 12-24mm for APS-C sized sensors. The results when using long exposures, zooming and using multiple flashes are pretty interesting, especially in the range where the image circle can't cover the hole sensor of my 5D, it's almost like the light trails are coming out of the picture.

Tell me what you think, I really appreciate every feedback.


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## surapon (Dec 9, 2013)

Knut Skywalker said:


> I shot a party friday night and got some results that I wanted to share with you guys. I'm pretty happy with the shots i got this weekend. I was experimenting quite a lot and it was paying of for me. I could definetly up my game in the nightclub photography area and gain some experience with color gels and off-camera flash.
> 
> The lens I used was a Tokina 12-24mm for APS-C sized sensors. The results when using long exposures, zooming and using multiple flashes are pretty interesting, especially in the range where the image circle can't cover the hole sensor of my 5D, it's almost like the light trails are coming out of the picture.
> 
> Tell me what you think, I really appreciate every feedback.



Wow, Wow, Wow, Dear Knut.
You are great Special effected Photographer, I love your Photos = Good story teller, Good Composition and Great Special effected for High Motion of the Model.
Thanks to share with us, these great Pictures.
Surapon


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## sanj (Dec 9, 2013)

You are a gutsy, experimental photographer and I admire that. I like the first photo a lot. Keep it up.


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## RLPhoto (Dec 9, 2013)

Nice. I like the dragged shutter and the speedlites off to the sides.


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## Menace (Dec 9, 2013)

Well done - nicely captured.


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## Marsu42 (Dec 9, 2013)

These are really nice, I'd like to give some constructive criticism, but I don't find anything to improve. With the ef-s lens on ff you've found something quite unique, you should expand on that!

Btw it's always interesting to see djs put up a show when basically switching cds and doing some beatmixing 



Knut Skywalker said:


> The lens I used was a Tokina 12-24mm for APS-C sized sensors.



... and with a 5d2 *snigger* that'll make the "you need a 5d3 to shoot your doorknob in low light" crowd think 



Knut Skywalker said:


> The results when using long exposures, zooming and using multiple flashes are pretty interesting, especially in the range where the image circle can't cover the hole sensor of my 5D, it's almost like the light trails are coming out of the picture.



It's a damn pitty the Canon brand flashes don't support 2nd curtain remote sync - is this 1st or 2nd curtain (using your Yn triggers)?


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## alexanderferdinand (Dec 9, 2013)

Nice colors, dynamic.
Very well done!


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## Hesbehindyou (Dec 9, 2013)

These are great. I'm just thinking out loud with the following:



Knut Skywalker said:


> I could definetly up my game in the nightclub photography area and gain some experience with color gels and off-camera flash.



- The white flash looks out of place so gels would make it look more 'natural', as if you weren't using a flash.
- The white flash does really well at separating the subject from the colourful mish-mash of lights and objects that would otherwise distract my eye and 'hide' the subject.

Reckon go for gels for that 'wow you got lucky with the light/how did you do that without flash' look, and 'bare' flash for busy shots where the subject would otherwise be a little too well camouflaged.

An off-camera flash placed behind your subject (well, behind as in behind relative to the camera) would also help separate the subject from the rest of the photo, so if you wanted to get away from the bare flash look experiment with that.



Knut Skywalker said:


> The lens I used was a Tokina 12-24mm for APS-C sized sensors. The results when using long exposures, zooming and using multiple flashes are pretty interesting, especially in the range where the image circle can't cover the hole sensor of my 5D, it's almost like the light trails are coming out of the picture.



These look great - the vignetting really focuses my attention and the light trails coming out of the picture adds a sense of depth. I was wondering how you managed to prevent the light hitting what I thought was a black wall in around the DJ's booth - last thing I expected was using the 'wrong' lens 

Other things to experiment with are leading lines, interesting viewpoints (i.e. up high and down low), shots with something small in foreground real close to camera that 'links' in some way with whats in the background (e.g. ticket stub/flyer - whatever).


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## Knut Skywalker (Dec 9, 2013)

Thanks a lot for your kind words and the constructive criticism. Thats always a good source of motivation for me.  



Hesbehindyou said:


> - The white flash looks out of place so gels would make it look more 'natural', as if you weren't using a flash.
> - The white flash does really well at separating the subject from the colourful mish-mash of lights and objects that would otherwise distract my eye and 'hide' the subject



After editing the photos i realized that the white flash indeed was to cold to fit the colorful style of these shots so i bumped up the color temperature a bit, that also made the overall colors more vibrant. Next time i will add a light orange gel to the white flash to have a warmer color temperature in the first place.



Hesbehindyou said:


> An off-camera flash placed behind your subject (well, behind as in behind relative to the camera) would also help separate the subject from the rest of the photo, so if you wanted to get away from the bare flash look experiment with that.



Since I have a YN-622c too much for my current 2-flash-setup (they come in pairs) i should consider buying another one of those YN-565s, man i love this flash. I actually like it more than my 430EX II.
I like the idea with the flash right behind the subject, especially if smoke is involved (maybe add color, too) this could lead to some very interesting results. Thanks for that!



Marsu42 said:


> Btw it's always interesting to see djs put up a show when basically switching cds and doing some beatmixing



Here in Germany we don't like those David Guetta-esque DJ's, too. But we have a nice and impulsive electronic music scene, especially when it comes to banging techno. And I tell you what, those italian guys that were playing that night rocked the house big time! The crowd was going wild and so did them 



Marsu42 said:


> ... and with a 5d2 *snigger* that'll make the "you need a 5d3 to shoot your doorknob in low light" crowd think



I never shot with a camera with more than 9 AF points, lol. But I really like the performance of the center focus point of my 5D, even without the YN-622s assist beam it focuses nicely even in dark club environments.




Marsu42 said:


> It's a damn pitty the Canon brand flashes don't support 2nd curtain remote sync - is this 1st or 2nd curtain (using your Yn triggers)?



I was using my YN-622 triggers with 1st curtain sync. I think you can use the 2nd curtain if you disable the wireless features with groups and all this stuff, I even think i used it once. But i have to test that out.

Again, thanks for the great feedback guys!

Greetings from Germany,
David


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## Arctic Photo (Dec 9, 2013)

This is what it's all about, isn't it?


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## privatebydesign (Dec 9, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> It's a damn pitty the Canon brand flashes don't support 2nd curtain remote sync - is this 1st or 2nd curtain (using your Yn triggers)?



And that is my point in all these first and second curtain comments, 99% of the time you can't tell which was used so how important a feature is it really?

I'd love somebody to actually post some images they took that illustrate how first curtain sync ruined their shot.


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## Marsu42 (Dec 9, 2013)

Knut Skywalker said:



> Marsu42 said:
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> > Btw it's always interesting to see djs put up a show when basically switching cds and doing some beatmixing
> ...



Hoooray! You're the first one to mistake me for an non-German, ever, after reading my English  ... actually I'm also German, Berlin to be specific, so I had a good look at the club scene for the last decade... but before my photography days, so sadly I never came around to try what you did.



privatebydesign said:


> And that is my point in all these first and second curtain comments, 99% of the time you can't tell which was used so how important a feature is it really?



I could return the favor by saying that the other part concerning many topics (2nd curtain, auto iso, af, mp, dr, 2nd cf/sd slot) boils down to "If Canon doesn't have it, it can't be useful, and if you miss it you're no good at photography" ... but I don't say that , instead ...



privatebydesign said:


> I'd love somebody to actually post some images they took that illustrate how first curtain sync ruined their shot.



... I would like to point out that I wasn't talking about "ruined" here, the shots look fine as they are - I was wondering about the difference and as I know the Yn triggers support this somehow I was asking if he used it. This question alone proves that I don't think that there has to be an immense difference.

For his setup, 1st curtain probably is even better because he freezes what he sees when he triggers the shot and the dj was barely moving, but for a dancing club crowd with long-term ambient + flash I'd wager to guess that 2nd curtain would look more natural.


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## Knut Skywalker (Dec 9, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Marsu42 said:
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> > It's a damn pitty the Canon brand flashes don't support 2nd curtain remote sync - is this 1st or 2nd curtain (using your Yn triggers)?
> ...



I actually have some shots that have this kind of shadow a moving object leaves when you drag the shutter with flashes. But for events like that where the DJ is jumping around I want to flash when the DJ "does his moves" and I only can consistently freeze those moments when I use 1st curtain. With 2nd curtain it's hit or miss because the flash goes off a second later than the shutter. 



Marsu42 said:


> Hoooray! You're the first one to mistake me for an non-German, ever, after reading my English  ... actually I'm also German, Berlin to be specific, so I had a good look at the club scene for the last decade... but before my photography days, so sadly I never came around to try what you did.



Well, congrats for getting me to think you're a native speaker.  I'm from Hessen, 80 kilometers from Frankfurt. The U60 was my go-to club for a long time.

But yeah, pretty much what you said:



Marsu42 said:


> For his setup, 1st curtain probably is even better because he freezes what he sees when he triggers the shot


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## privatebydesign (Dec 9, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> privatebydesign said:
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> ...



You missed my point.


> "And that is my point in all these first and second curtain comments, 99% of the time you can't tell which was used so how important a feature is it really?"



You can't tell with people dancing if first or second curtain was used unless you know which way they were moving, the images look like mirror images, sharp then trail or trail then sharp, it looks the same.

Think of it like this, picture a chorus line doing kicks, if you have first curtain and drag then on the up-kick you get sharp leg with blur above it, to the eye it "looks" like the leg is going down, but it wasn't, do the same on the down-kick and you get a sharp leg and blur below it, again, to the eye it looks like an up-kick. Use second curtain and both situations are reversed, but the images all look very similar, two up-kicks and two down-kicks, without knowing if the shot was taken on the up-kick or down-kick the down-kick in second curtain and up-kick in first curtain are identical.

Obviously, as Knut points out, timing is easier with first curtain and that is probably why it is the default!


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## Marsu42 (Dec 9, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> You can't tell with people dancing if first or second curtain was used unless you know which way they were moving



Um, forwards :-o ? Of course it depends on the dance style, and you are correct in pointing out that for forward-backwards up-down dance movement it'll be the same loot, not so much for people walking about. I know 2nd curtain sync is a setting reserved for special occasions, but after all it did end up in mainstream flash equipment for a reason.



privatebydesign said:


> Obviously, as Knut points out, timing is easier with first curtain and that is probably why it is the default!



No, it isn't the default because there cannot be a default if there's only one option like with remote flash :->


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## privatebydesign (Dec 9, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> privatebydesign said:
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> ...



Well most dances don't just go forwards, that would be a march,  , most dancing involves turning, swirling, bouncing, swaying etc, again, that is my point, without knowing the direction you can't know the curtain sync. I used to do second curtain sync at wedding receptions with bounced on camera flash back in my film days, until I forgot once, but on seeing the resulting images I realised there is no difference, since then I never bothered.



Marsu42 said:


> privatebydesign said:
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> > Obviously, as Knut points out, timing is easier with first curtain and that is probably why it is the default!
> ...



It is the default when the flash is used on camera when there is a choice, and it is the default for those triggers that offer the choice in a remote situation too, I'd call that the "default".


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## Knut Skywalker (Dec 9, 2013)

There really are very few occasions where you have to use 2nd curtain sync. I could only think of night portraits with flash and long exposure. With 1st curtain sync there would be a shadow around the model because he or she can't stand perfectly still for that long.


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## Marsu42 (Dec 9, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


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Well, I know, I admit I was just pulling your leg :-> but thanks for your input that it really doesn't make much of a a difference in many situations!


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## privatebydesign (Dec 9, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


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All is good, I was only playing too.  One of many situations where it is impossible to gauge the seriousness of the poster.


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## Marsu42 (Dec 9, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> One of many situations where it is impossible to gauge the seriousness of the poster.



Yes, I keep forgetting that - as a rule of thumb, I'm seldom serious when it comes to rumors or trashy tech talk ("my af is bigger than yours"), I admit my serious varies when talking about technique, but am very serious when it comes to advising other people to spend a lot of their money.


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## Janbo Makimbo (Dec 9, 2013)

I really like the second pic... Just goes to show you don't need a squillion focus points and a 5D3 to take good pics!!


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## Knut Skywalker (Dec 9, 2013)

Janbo Makimbo said:


> I really like the second pic... Just goes to show you don't need a squillion focus points and a 5D3 to take good pics!!



All I need is 1. 8) 5D2 users can relate.


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## RLPhoto (Dec 9, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Marsu42 said:
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Wow. This comment speaks everything about your experience. Just wow.


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## privatebydesign (Dec 9, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


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You couldn't find an illustrative image so your comment has what point?


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## RLPhoto (Dec 9, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


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That your experience is finite to a hands width to make a statement like you did.


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## Janbo Makimbo (Dec 9, 2013)

Now Now Girls....kiss and make up!!!!


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## privatebydesign (Dec 9, 2013)

Janbo Makimbo said:


> Now Now Girls....kiss and make up!!!!



Why? RPL loves throwing out personal insults but always fails to actually refute my point with example images, as I so often request. Personally, I think he has the hots for me (I think it is my accent), he pays way too much attention to me to not like me...............


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## RLPhoto (Dec 10, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Janbo Makimbo said:
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Aww that's cute PBD. Would you like some kleenex?


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## privatebydesign (Dec 10, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


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Actually I'd prefer some images from you that contradicts my post, but as always you can't supply them. 

I'm not the one being emotional here though, I made a photography orientated post that others have subsequently agreed with, whereas you made personal attacks and avoided the photography, nothing new there either.


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## RLPhoto (Dec 10, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


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I don't remember seeing any of your photography. Mind sharing?


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## privatebydesign (Dec 10, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


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My my we are feisty tonight aren't we? Good to see your memory is not failing you, DOH! But we should be thankful, you are, at last, being consistent. ;D

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,18198.msg339419.html#msg339419

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,17652.msg332755.html#msg332755

Now where are your images that illustrate your comment that I don't know what I am talking about?

It is funny, I posted an illustrative image on this very subject recently.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,17668.msg330362.html#msg330362

Not an altogether magic moment, but it served its purpose perfectly as it illustrated my point, remember that concept? And it maintained the site visibility I am comfortable with.


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## RLPhoto (Dec 10, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


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I enjoy seeing you avoid a direct question about your work. It reflects your first comment perfectly about your experiences or the lack of it.


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## privatebydesign (Dec 10, 2013)

So first curtain and clockwise or second curtain and anti clockwise, and what are the definitive points proving that?

As for my work, I haven't avoided the question, I will not post it here on CR, that is the answer, the same answer I have given you many times before. I don't care if that is unacceptable to you or if it means you, personally, consider my posts worthless. The points I make are normally easily checked by anybody with an interest in the specific area or technique under discussion but are often misrepresented as "deal breakers" or "issues" when often they are not, that is why I am sometimes so stubborn.

It isn't my fault that after all this time you still believe that in dance shots there is a difference between first and second curtain sync, even though I have explained why, in simple terms, there isn't; it also isn't my fault you can't see the logic and professionalism you get from normalised results by profiling your cameras/lenses/flashes. But believe me, in time, you will, I was way more "knowledgeable" and stubborn when I was your age than you are, and we didn't have the internet to prove it! 

Now in the name of peace in the forums I suggest we stick to the subject of photography, I do that way better than personal relationships with people I have never met and who clearly have no respect for my opinions, even though they can't actually disprove them. 

Sometimes I am wrong, if you believe that to be so then don't attack me, educate me.


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## polarhannes (Dec 10, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Marsu42 said:
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> > It's a damn pitty the Canon brand flashes don't support 2nd curtain remote sync - is this 1st or 2nd curtain (using your Yn triggers)?
> ...



Please see this page http://www.fotolehrgang.de/notiz_Mythos_Synchronisation_auf_den_zweiten_Verschlussvorhang.htm . It doesn't matter that it is written in German as the pictures in it describe the difference pretty well. It all depends on the look you want to achieve.
For the 2nd picture in that website you absolutely need 2nd curtain sync. Does not necessarily mean that the look which 1st curtain sync creates is bad and ruins the shot, but it just looks different - and that is the point.

Edit: Can't speak for dance photography - never done that.


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## Marsu42 (Dec 10, 2013)

polarhannes said:


> Please see this page



Thanks, for our German-challenged native speakers: the link (including some samples) basically says what privatebydesign wrote above ... 2nd curtain sync should be used with care as it's hard or even impossible to predict where your subject is when the flash fires, and often (like a carousel, but also dance) the movement direction doesn't matter so you can just use 1st curtain sync.


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## privatebydesign (Dec 10, 2013)

Thanks polarhannes, that is exactly the scenario I described in this thread and linked to above, though not as graphically, which is why I often use illustrative images. http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,17668.msg330362.html#msg330362

Marsu42, thanks for the concise summary.


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## polarhannes (Dec 10, 2013)

Basically I agree with both RLPhoto and privatebydesign.
RLPhoto says: It does make a difference -> Agreed, it does under specific circumstances as the website clearly demonstrates with the car pictures.
privatebydesign says: Does not matter for dance photography under some specific circumstances -> Agreed, it is very hard to predict where the dancers will be when the flash fires if set to 2nd curtain sync.

So both of you are right - no need to fight each other. I think you you just misunderstood each other.

Back to topic:
OP, thanks for sharing! I really like the pictures and the unique look you created.


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## RLPhoto (Dec 10, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> So first curtain and clockwise or second curtain and anti clockwise, and what are the definitive points proving that?
> 
> As for my work, I haven't avoided the question, I will not post it here on CR, that is the answer, the same answer I have given you many times before. I don't care if that is unacceptable to you or if it means you, personally, consider my posts worthless. The points I make are normally easily checked by anybody with an interest in the specific area or technique under discussion but are often misrepresented as "deal breakers" or "issues" when often they are not, that is why I am sometimes so stubborn.
> 
> ...



More Knowledgeable? and Suggesting to stick to the subject of photography? Hmmm... A Bit hard to wrap my brain around those two thing's w/o any photography from yourself. XD


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