# Canon eos 77D



## Chaitanya (Feb 10, 2017)

Specs look similar to Eos 800D but with different body shell.

http://digicame-info.com/2017/02/eos-77d-1.html


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 10, 2017)

No, it's the next version of the 760D, aka T6s. Someone on another thread already superimposed the T6s body on this 77D and it's nearly identical. Expect a small top LCD like before with the T6S.

- A


----------



## hne (Feb 10, 2017)

With 24Mpx, 45 AF points, 6fps, wifi and tilty-flippy-touch it really does fit in between the 70D and 80D so 77D is a reasonable name in my book. Looks like a quite nice camera that I'd actually consider if my 70D broke down on me.

It also makes for an interesting baseline for the 6D mark II: The 800D/T7i, 77D and 80D all have alt least 4 out of 5 of 24Mpx, DPAF, tilty-flippy-touch, electronic video stabilisation and 45 AF points.


----------



## Chaitanya (Feb 10, 2017)

hne said:


> With 24Mpx, 45 AF points, 6fps, wifi and tilty-flippy-touch it really does fit in between the 70D and 80D so 77D is a reasonable name in my book. Looks like a quite nice camera that I'd actually consider if my 70D broke down on me.
> 
> It also makes for an interesting baseline for the 6D mark II: The 800D/T7i, 77D and 80D all have alt least 4 out of 5 of 24Mpx, DPAF, tilty-flippy-touch, electronic video stabilisation and 45 AF points.


Going from 70D to 77D you will miss direct af input, its not easy using 19point af on 750/760D and now bump to 45pt af on this one is going to make it even harder. Else the camera does look like decent upgrade over 760D. I am also waiting for 6D mk ii as an potential upgrade to 70D(while dumping 500D and retaining 70D as backup). else for now my 70D and 500D are serving me well. All I need is dual sd slots and 4k video as must have features for my next camera.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 10, 2017)

Hmm. The 750D and the 760D share the same 19-pt PDAF system, but will the 800D get the 45-point system given that the 77D does? I find that rather implausible a priori.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 10, 2017)

Sharlin said:


> Hmm. The 750D and the 760D share the same 19-pt PDAF system, but will the 800D get the 45-point system given that the 77D does? I find that rather implausible a priori.



+1. Besides a top LCD, I think it's clear why an XXXD rig just got promoted to XXD status -- 45 AF points is a shocking boost from the prior 19. It would appear the 77D is indeed an '80D-lite'. 

But will the 800D get that same treatment? My guess would be no. What does everyone else think?

- A


----------



## ritholtz (Feb 10, 2017)

hne said:


> With 24Mpx, 45 AF points, 6fps, wifi and tilty-flippy-touch it really does fit in between the 70D and 80D so 77D is a reasonable name in my book. Looks like a quite nice camera that I'd actually consider if my 70D broke down on me.
> 
> It also makes for an interesting baseline for the 6D mark II: The 800D/T7i, 77D and 80D all have alt least 4 out of 5 of 24Mpx, DPAF, tilty-flippy-touch, electronic video stabilisation and 45 AF points.


If they add MFA functionality to 77d, I am going to upgrade from 70d.


----------



## ScottyP (Feb 10, 2017)

I am liking the 45af points.

First, it gives me hope that 6d2 might have a decent number of points if Rebels can have 45. 

Second, it could be a cost effective way to add a 1.6x light sports body to the kit, as only just a few years ago people with 7d cameras were crowing about having 19 af points, and clearly it worked. I don't use my cameras to smash walnuts or to bang loose nails back in on my deck so I wouldn't miss the adamantium battle chassis of the more expensive lines.


----------



## scrup (Feb 10, 2017)

My 1dsii has 45 af points, 10 years for the rebel line to catch up. This will be a worthy upgrade for existing users.


----------



## 9VIII (Feb 10, 2017)

I think one of the biggest differentiators for me is going to be whether or not the 19 point system has a dual cross type center point. Those sound like they actually make cameras work better with shallow DOF and in low light, right now I couldn't care less how many AF points there are, give my more of the ones that work better.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 10, 2017)

scrup said:


> My 1dsii has 45 af points, 10 years for the rebel line to catch up. This will be a worthy upgrade for existing users.



The 760D replacement is being called the 77D -- it is no longer a Rebel branded product unless I am mistaken. It has been promoted from 'best Rebel' to 'lowest XXD' class.

And it remains to be seen how many AF points the new Rebel, the 800D, will get. That spec was conspicuously absent from what Digicame and Nokish.ita reported. All we know is that DPAF is included and it's 24 MP -- we could logically conclude the 800D will get the M5/M6/80D sensor and AF setup, but we do not know that at present.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 10, 2017)

9VIII said:


> I think one of the biggest differentiators for me is going to be whether or not the 19 point system has a dual cross type center point. Those sound like they actually make cameras work better with shallow DOF and in low light, right now I couldn't care less how many AF points there are, give my more of the ones that work better.



But the rumor might suggest the 77D is getting _the full 80D AF setup_, which, from TDP, is:

45 cross-type AF points
(45 f/5.6 cross-type AF points, 27 f/8 points [9 cross-type], centre point is f/2.8 and f/5.6 dual cross-type)

...which we'd all agree is a lot better than 19 cross type points.

- A


----------



## TexPhoto (Feb 10, 2017)

Oh Gee, Should i sell my seven-ty dee? or my Seven dee to buy this seven-ty seven dee? Or just own three?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 10, 2017)

TexPhoto said:


> Oh Gee, Should i sell my seven-ty dee? or my Seven dee to buy this seven-ty seven dee? Or just own three?



Wheeeeee!


----------



## HaroldC3 (Feb 10, 2017)

How on earth this model makes any sense is beyond me.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 10, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> TexPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Oh Gee, Should i sell my seven-ty dee? or my Seven dee to buy this seven-ty seven dee? Or just own three?
> ...



Canon's branding has historically been pretty well ordained and understood. 

But between...


The M --> M2 --> M3 --> M6 coupled with the coexistence of an M10 and M5, and


 There were two Rebel lines--> now there are three Rebel lines --> nope, we're back to two Rebel lines... and now the X0D line has an (X-1)7D little brother

...I am starting to get a headache. It's not as bad as Olympus's overlappy amalgam of Os and Ms and Ds and Es and 1s, but Canon's brand clarity is definitely trending in the wrong direction.

- A


----------



## scrup (Feb 10, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > TexPhoto said:
> ...



75d would of made sense as they have used the 5/50 in PowerShot models. But this was normally for mid model upgrades.

The more models, the better for consumer for choice on the other hand, it means less movement on price for higher models


----------



## Nininini (Feb 10, 2017)

Don't really care if a camera has 45 or 19 AF points. For slow moving or static objects, I almost always use the center AF point, half press the shutter and recompose, or I move the AF point manually. 

_(I have heard some people argue that recomposing can actually cause a miss-focus due the recompose, I have not noticed that, maybe because I don't have any 1.2 or 1.4 lenses, but for me recompose works every time)_

When I shoot our birds, I just don't trust AF, I know where they will be and prefocus on the ground at a distance I know the bird will be at, I turn off AF, and then point the camera to the sky, I know the width of my DoF (I'll be using at least f/5.6 or f/8.0), and I'll burst shoot and I'll get several shots perfectly in focus.

For all the commercials about cameras being able to focus on fast moving subjects, I still don't trust it and don't use it. It's not fast enough and not precise enough, if there's a cloud or tree or anything else in the frame it will miss focus, the camera has no idea that I want to focus on the bird, especially not when it doesn't take up much room in the frame, it will focus on the sky, or cloud, or tree, etc. People say that you can use AF tracking by marking a target with the AF point, I don't know what birds people shoot that allows them to use tracking, but I don't find the time to do this, you can barely see the AF markings on most Canon cameras I tried, let alone do it while looking at a bright sky.

Maybe it's because I'm used to rebel cameras, but the chance that I nail a shot on a fast moving subject by relying on the AF is much smaller than prefocus and creating a large enough DoF. Maybe it works for birds flying high in the sky, but for a fast flying bird a few meters above you, it does not work for me, only prefocus works.

I know people shooting cyclists use this prefocus on the ground trick too. It's the only thing that I trust.


----------



## ExodistPhotography (Feb 10, 2017)

HaroldC3 said:


> How on earth this model makes any sense is beyond me.



Yea makes no since to me also...

This is going to do nothing but confuse the heck out of people..

So its a cheap rebel camera body with a semi-pro branding. Yet technically the 70D is still a step up in durability and professional features like MFA, PentaPrism view finder and buffer size to just name a few things..


----------



## arcer (Feb 10, 2017)

TexPhoto said:


> Oh Gee, Should i sell my seven-ty dee? or my Seven dee to buy this seven-ty seven dee? Or just own three?



We got the EOS 7D, then the 70D, and now the 77D. What's next?

Maybe after 1-2 years later when we get the 90D, we can expect a little sister called 88D. 
Or we might get a 8D first?


----------



## Nininini (Feb 10, 2017)

arcer said:


> TexPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Oh Gee, Should i sell my seven-ty dee? or my Seven dee to buy this seven-ty seven dee? Or just own three?
> ...



Say no to camera inbreeding.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 10, 2017)

Nininini said:


> _(I have heard some people argue that recomposing can actually cause a miss-focus due the recompose, I have not noticed that, maybe because I don't have any 1.2 or 1.4 lenses, but for me recompose works every time)_



[Focus and recompose] + [fast glass shot wide open] + [relatively close subject (not macro, but say 5 feet on a standard prime)] is a great way to mis-focus and get a blurry shot. I never experienced that phenomenon myself until I slapped I starting using f/1.4 primes on my 5D3, and that makes sense: the smaller your DOF, the more reframing after focusing will hurt you.

- A


----------



## slclick (Feb 10, 2017)

A 70D,77D,80D comparison chart is in order, yes I can wait until the announcement.

But if any of you chart minded graphics wizards with colored arrows and such want to draw up something please by all means knock yourself out


----------



## Nininini (Feb 10, 2017)

slclick said:


> A 70D,77D,80D comparison chart is in order, yes I can wait until the announcement.
> 
> But if any of you chart minded graphics wizards with colored arrows and such want to draw up something please by all means knock yourself out


----------



## benkam (Feb 10, 2017)

Excellent, Nini....

DPAF in (what used to be?) a Rebel? Yes! Supposedly, the 80D's 45-point AF? Yes yes. The 77D's looking great (rumor-wise) so far. If Canon keep this in the 760D price range, that would be really nice.


----------



## IglooEater (Feb 10, 2017)

Nininini said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > A 70D,77D,80D comparison chart is in order, yes I can wait until the announcement.
> ...



Thanks, that's helpful. I wonder what will be differentiating the 80D from the 77D at this point. That son-of-a-rebel is frightfully close to the 7D II given its heritage.


----------



## Silverstream (Feb 10, 2017)

As a full time pro with 4 bodies - 3 FF and one old crop, this seems like a nice cheap upgrade for the old crop. $850-$900 is cheap enough that its worth it just for occasional use or just casual use. I also still have my wonderful EFS 17-55 F2.8 

I very occasionally shoot video so the in body 5 axis stabilization is very appealing. DPAF is a massive plus for that. The new sensor tech has proven to be wonderful with the new dynamic range. And finally, sometimes the crop factor can be really handy as opposed to an extender that cuts my fstop up to f4 on my 70-200mkII particularly if I want to get more into sports shooting. The 7 frames a second should be quite capable for almost all work too.

This makes sense for me. I will likely try to get rid of my old crop and one of my FF cameras in anticipation of also getting a 6DmkII when it ships.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 11, 2017)

Nininini said:


>



One big asterisk -- that electronic IS is for video only, right? It is not IBIS for stills at all.

Still, look at the 77D: 24 MP + 6 fps + 45 AF points + DPAF + tilty-flippy touchscreen + (hopefully) on-chip ADC sensor* = lasers. 

That's a _heck _of a rig for the money. A lot of people would be pretty stoked if those turned out to be the 6D2 specs (obv with a FF sensor).

One thing missing on the chart = AFMA. Still don't know if the 77D will get it. 

- A


----------



## slclick (Feb 11, 2017)

Silverstream said:


> As a full time pro with 4 bodies - 3 FF and one old crop, this seems like a nice cheap upgrade for the old crop. $850-$900 is cheap enough that its worth it just for occasional use or just casual use. I also still have my wonderful EFS 17-55 F2.8
> 
> I very occasionally shoot video so the in body 5 axis stabilization is very appealing. DPAF is a massive plus for that. The new sensor tech has proven to be wonderful with the new dynamic range. And finally, sometimes the crop factor can be really handy as opposed to an extender that cuts my fstop up to f4 on my 70-200mkII particularly if I want to get more into sports shooting. The 7 frames a second should be quite capable for almost all work too.
> 
> This makes sense for me. I will likely try to get rid of my old crop and one of my FF cameras in anticipation of also getting a 6DmkII when it ships.



When the 80D can be had for $889, I think to make it worth your while with that spec list it should come in in the $700 range. Otherwise, better bodies are just pennies more.


----------



## jd7 (Feb 11, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> Nininini said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...



The 77D sounds like it is shaping up to be a good rig for the money, but a few further things which could be added to the chart are:

is there any difference in the number/spread of different types of AF points, eg do the 45 point AF systems in the 77D and 80D both have the same number/spread of cross type AF points, etc;

is there any reason to think any of the cameras track moving targets better/worse, eg do the 77D and 80D do equally well at handing off a target from one AF point to another;

controls/ergonomics - I'm still a huge fan of the joystick on the higher end bodies, although I don't think any of the cameras in the chart have one of those. I think the 70D and 80D both have a control wheel with 8-way D-pad though, but I don't think the 760D or the 77D do(?). I would have thought that was a pretty big deal in terms of usability of the camera ...??

For my own part, all these new product announcements from Canon recently are just making me really keen to know what the 6D mark II will have to offer.


----------



## digitalride (Feb 11, 2017)

slclick said:


> When the 80D can be had for $889, I think to make it worth your while with that spec list it should come in in the $700 range. Otherwise, better bodies are just pennies more.



That's the trouble with so many bodies with similar specs - every time I looked the street price of the 70D made the t6s nearly irrelevant. I guess it could make sense to have 2 models at a similar price point if one is distinguished by the smaller body which some people might prefer, but the smaller bodies are always crippled feature-wise.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 11, 2017)

digitalride said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > When the 80D can be had for $889, I think to make it worth your while with that spec list it should come in in the $700 range. Otherwise, better bodies are just pennies more.
> ...



Sure, the 70D has a better top LCD, better button layout, AFMA, chunkier grip, 7 fps, a few more menus options, etc.
_
But does it have on-chip ADC, 45 AF points, electronic video IS, etc.? _

I agree the higher product line spec is better (70D > 760D), but it's possible the new 77D puts more distance between it and it's 800D little brother this time. 

- A


----------



## goldenhusky (Feb 11, 2017)

arcer said:


> We got the EOS 7D, then the 70D, and now the 77D. What's next?



After competing with BMW with M1, M2, M3,.... may be canon will be in race with Boeing with a 777D? from there expand the line with a 787D, 797D, etc...


----------



## goldenhusky (Feb 11, 2017)

Nininini said:


> Don't really care if a camera has 45 or 19 AF points. For slow moving or static objects, I almost always use the center AF point, half press the shutter and recompose, or I move the AF point manually.
> 
> _(I have heard some people argue that recomposing can actually cause a miss-focus due the recompose, I have not noticed that, maybe because I don't have any 1.2 or 1.4 lenses, but for me recompose works every time)_
> 
> ...



I am new to wildlife photography but I really wonder how do you track a bird in flight with manual focus? Recomposing sounds like a bad idea at least to me at this point coz at times I found both 5D4 and 80D goes way out of focus especially when trying to shoot a bird in flight with the bright sky in the background.


----------



## goldenhusky (Feb 11, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> One big asterisk -- that electronic IS is for video only, right? It is not IBIS for stills at all.



I would be super excited if cannon comes out with IBIS coz if that happens then we can probably expect that in 6D2 but I think it is software based IS for video alone.


----------



## dufflover (Feb 11, 2017)

The available specs like that nice chart (thanks!) still leaves out many other factors though like the buffer depth and viewfinder type. Does the Rebel body-size mean it would be a pentamirror for example?

Would make the 70D a good buy if it ever ends up on clearance prices or something (not that I would buy since I already have one )


----------



## ritholtz (Feb 11, 2017)

dufflover said:


> The available specs like that nice chart (thanks!) still leaves out many other factors though like the buffer depth and viewfinder type. Does the Rebel body-size mean it would be a pentamirror for example?
> 
> Would make the 70D a good buy if it ever ends up on clearance prices or something (not that I would buy since I already have one )


MFA is the one major functionality difference. If Canon adds MFA functionality to this rebel, I prefer this over 80d.


----------



## Luds34 (Feb 11, 2017)

Reading this thread just makes me realize how much I miss my 70D at times. The good news is that if a Rebel is getting a 45 point AF system, you gotta think the new 6D2 should have something pretty substantial.


----------



## Nininini (Feb 11, 2017)

goldenhusky said:


> Nininini said:
> 
> 
> > Don't really care if a camera has 45 or 19 AF points. For slow moving or static objects, I almost always use the center AF point, half press the shutter and recompose, or I move the AF point manually.
> ...



I recompose for static subjects or slow moving, not birds.

For birds I do the same thing cyclist photographers do. I AF (or MF if you have the time), on a set distance (the ground or a tree), a distance I know my bird will be at, then I set my lens to MF and point it at the sky and I shoot. With a high DOF, burst, and knowing where the bird will be you will get good shots.

It means knowing where the bird will be at a few seconds seconds ahead of time, and knowing how high it will be, but that's not hard, you start to learn how high they fly after a while.

From my experience, trying to AF on a bird that flies overhead at low altitude, is impossible with current camera tech. When you add in clouds / trees / several birds...it's not possible. Will the camera get lucky from time to time? Maybe. But it's not worth it for me, I prefer the prefocus trick and trust my instinct of knowing where the bird will be than to rely on a camera that doesn't even understand what its looking at.

It also means that AF speed on a lens doesn't matter anymore, and you can start to shoot birds with MF lenses too. Prefocus is how people always shot flying birds before AF existed.


----------



## Ryananthony (Feb 11, 2017)

Uh what? Are you saying that cameras "get lucky" when ever they track an object properly? 



> From my experience, trying to AF on a bird that flies overhead at low altitude, is impossible with current camera tech. When you add in clouds / trees / several birds...it's not possible.



From my experience it is 100 percent possible and extremely reliable. Have I missed something, or are you referring to a certain camera? 


EDIT: Sorry, I missed the part where you were referring to your use of rebels. This is a photo my wife took using my 1dx with the sigma 150-600C. She tracked this bird while it flew behind a canopy of trees. This was one shot of many that were in focus.


----------



## Nininini (Feb 11, 2017)

Ryananthony said:


> Uh what? Are you saying that cameras "get lucky" when ever they track an object properly?



Yes, because they don't understand what you're focusing on. Cameras are dumb.



Ryananthony said:


> From my experience it is 100 percent possible and extremely reliable. Have I missed something, or are you referring to a certain camera?




Try shooting a crow diving from a nest in a poplar without getting the AF focusing on the tree behind it.

Try capturing a praying kestrel during it's dive without having the AF system focus on the meadow behind it.


----------



## Ryananthony (Feb 11, 2017)

Nininini said:


> Ryananthony said:
> 
> 
> > Uh what? Are you saying that cameras "get lucky" when ever they track an object properly?
> ...



LOL. Okay. Your the professional, my bad. No idea why cameras have autofocus in the first place.


----------



## Nininini (Feb 11, 2017)

Ryananthony said:


> EDIT: Sorry, I missed the part where you were referring to your use of rebels. This is a photo my wife took using my 1dx with the sigma 150-600C. She tracked this bird while it flew behind a canopy of trees. This was one shot of many that were in focus.



Large slow flying birds with high-lift wings like buteo buteo, eagles, vultures, are not hard to shoot. They don't fly erratic, I shot a buteo with my iphone and it turned out fine.

But relying on the AF for birds with elliptical wings, in forest or gardens, isn't going to work. There is no way an AF system can track a wren flying overhead for example.


----------



## Nininini (Feb 11, 2017)

Ryananthony said:


> LOL. Okay. Your the professional, my bad. No idea why cameras have autofocus in the first place.



AF works for some subjects. 

Like I said before, AF works for large slow moving birds at a distance, it does not work for the large majority of birds, which are passerine, ie songbirds.

Shooting an eagle is as challenging for the AF system as shooting a truck. Shooting a wren hopping between the trees is like trying to track a ping-pong ball with the AF system, it's not going to work. There is a difference, recognise it.

(I've never said I was a professional btw. I have consistently said I was not and I have consistently said I shot with rebel cameras. But that doesn't mean I don't have experience shooting)


----------



## Proscribo (Feb 11, 2017)

Since 77D is kinda close to 80D, could it be that 80D is going to be replaced soon(ish)? Or maybe that's going to happen early 2018 anyway.

Btw 5D4's 7fps starts to look laughable. These XXXD and semi-XXD series are shooting almost as fast and I guess 80D replacement would get a boost to fps too (not to mention that competitor's old model goes "6,5"fps). Can I wish for 2D, 3D, 4D, 5DX or anything that would be FF and at least 9fps? I'd go with 1DX but I'm not sure about the size. :


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 11, 2017)

mirrorslapper, not interested.

But why oh why dors Canon not put this type of fully articulated LCD also on EOS M5 and M6 series???


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 11, 2017)

AvTvM said:


> mirrorslapper, not interested.
> 
> But why oh why dors Canon not put this type of fully articulated LCD also on EOS M5 and M6 series???



Because it wouldn't physically fit the form factor they want. At least not without shrinking the LCD screen considerably.


----------



## Deleted member 378664 (Feb 11, 2017)

Sharlin said:


> Because it wouldn't physically fit the form factor they want. At least not without shrinking the LCD screen considerably.



I just compared EOS M5 and 80D and "measured" with photoshop (115,6mm width of M5 = 412 Pixel as base).

The flippy tilty screen of the 80D is just 0,5mm wider (88,6mm vs 88,1mm) than the screen of the EOS M. The hight measured from the bottom of the cam ist the same.


----------



## PeterT (Feb 11, 2017)

HaroldC3 said:


> How on earth this model makes any sense is beyond me.



It makes a lot of sense to me.

6 years ago I wrote this in a DPReview thread called "Would you buy a Rebel-sized 7Di/7000D?":

-- citing my 6 years old (Feb 8, 2011) text:
I definitely would like the 7D's AF including micro-adjust in a Rebel-sized body.
I want to upgrade my already "very old" 350D. But actually my only complaint is AF and I do not want a bigger/heavier camera. So I have not found any single model in Canon's production in last 6 years, which would be worth the upgrade.
-- end of citation

During those 6 years the 70D and 80D came, both of them are smaller than the 60D, which was IMO a right move, but only a half step towards my "dream camera" because AF micro adjustments were included, but the body is still unnecessarily heavy and the grip too big (for my way of holding the camera my middle finger must firmly touch the body and it is not the case with the 70D grip).
I made only a tiny upgrade to a 450D that was given to me by a friend who upgraded to Sony FF (so it was not really an upgrade decided by me).
And my list of complaints (about my current 450D) has now two items: the first and most important one is still AF that cannot be adjusted and the second one is too low high ISO and too low quality of high ISO.

So maybe after 6 years of writing the above cited text I will be able to get the good AF of the higher end models (including AF micro adjustments) in a lightweight camera...? Well we will see if 77D will actually have not only the number of AF points listed but also the ability to micro adjust the AF. If so, then I will finally have a reason to update after 12 years...

So for me this model, if it includes AF micro adjust, has a lot of sense. And I do not think that I am alone.

I want the Rebel shaped body and I can give up some features that are direct consequences of that: smaller and lighter body means no weather sealing, pentamiror instead of pentaprism and a smaller battery. Smaller battery means slower shutter i.e. smaller max FPS and smaller max shutter speed.


----------



## Axilrod (Feb 11, 2017)

Wow the same camera they've been releasing for the last 5 years with a new name, amazing!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 11, 2017)

Axilrod said:


> Wow the same camera they've been releasing for the last 5 years with a new name, amazing!



Yeah, Nikon and Sony are much more innovative because they release new models to correct defects in the predecessors.


----------



## Orangutan (Feb 11, 2017)

Axilrod said:


> Wow the same camera they've been releasing for the last 5 years with a new name, amazing!



Blame Sony and Nikon: since they clearly have better products, they should be taking large chunks of market share from Canon. What's the deal with them? [/cheek]


----------



## Berowne (Feb 11, 2017)

I will not buy another Crop-Body.


----------



## DanM (Feb 11, 2017)

Interesting... No headphone jack though, and I like a larger grip, so absolutely no "I wish I had this" instead of my 80D.


----------



## Khufu (Feb 12, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > TexPhoto said:
> ...



There was the 500D (Rebel), just the one line, and the 50D pro-crop line, which then changed to the 7D, and spawned a new plastic guy which adopted the 60D etc titling... then the 1000D series appeared, to use up old parts or whatever, and the amazing little 100D (SL1) rocked up after a while; a little later the 700D turned into both the 750D and 760D; that's:

7D
XXD
XXXD
XYXD (Now XYD)
1XXD
XXXXD 

Plus...
M5
M6
M10

...aaall running as separate lines, where there was once just a 400D and a 40D.


----------



## Sporgon (Feb 12, 2017)

Any news on whether this camera has a decent pentaprism instead of the pentamirror ? Given that we now have the M5, as well as other makes with pretty decent EVF, I have been predicting for some time now that if the cheaper dslr s are going to keep up they will have to move to pentaprism finders. However to date my tack record of accurate predictions is dire to say the least, and have all been completely wrong, so I guess there is a pretty good chance that this one will be too.

I am just wondering if the move to a two digit moniker on this rebel heralds a general up grade.


----------



## ExodistPhotography (Feb 12, 2017)

Nininini said:


> Ryananthony said:
> 
> 
> > Uh what? Are you saying that cameras "get lucky" when ever they track an object properly?
> ...



Nini is actually correct here. AF works great if its something big and nothing is going to get in front of your focus. But even if a bird is in the sky, fn camera may just try to focus on a cloud in the distance and not the freaking eagle you wanted.. This is why so many use the AF-ON button. I personally have mine to to turn the AF off when pressed. But still does the same job.


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Feb 12, 2017)

Sporgon said:


> Any news on whether this camera has a decent pentaprism instead of the pentamirror ? Given that we now have the M5, as well as other makes with pretty decent EVF, I have been predicting for some time now that if the cheaper dslr s are going to keep up they will have to move to pentaprism finders. However to date my tack record of accurate predictions is dire to say the least, and have all been completely wrong, so I guess there is a pretty good chance that this one will be too.
> I am just wondering if the move to a two digit moniker on this rebel heralds a general up grade.


Pentaprism viewfinder on the Rebel?
I believe that soon the Rebel line will have electronic viewfinder, as they will become mirrorless, leaving only line 80D or higher with the good old mirror.


----------



## PeterT (Feb 12, 2017)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Pentaprism viewfinder on the Rebel?
> I believe that soon the Rebel line will have electronic viewfinder, as they will become mirrorless, leaving only line 80D or higher with the good old mirror.



But 77D is not going to be a real Rebel.
I really hope for an 80D in Rebel body for those (like me) that just do not like the usual XXD body size and weight, but want all the features of 80D that are possible in the smaller body, including AF micro adjustments.
On the other hand, I think that Rebel body means a pentamirror (I have no proof for that, though). And I can live with that (as well as with smaller battery and all the consequences of that, see my previous post in this thread).

I do not believe in mirrorless Rebels. For mirrorless Canons there is the evolving EOS M world.
Do you think that new Rebels will move into the EOS M world? (i.e. that they will lose the mirror along with the mirror box resulting in shorter flange focal distance). Or do you think that the mirror box will stay, which will result in a Pentax K-01-like solution? It wasn't terribly successful, was it?


----------



## slclick (Feb 12, 2017)

PeterT said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > Pentaprism viewfinder on the Rebel?
> ...



I don't see Rebels morphing into the M world myself but hey, I'm wrong usually once a day. 

I do think this is a bridge between the Rebel and XXD body world what with size, weight and features. It will not have everything folks want ( things higher priced bodies have, duh) but it will be an SL1 successor of sorts.Newer tech, better IQ and noise levels, better AF point system. All while being relatively small and light. 

I'd still buy an 80D in a heartbeat over this myself.


----------



## LucidPhotographer (Feb 12, 2017)

Some people here question the sense of releasing a model like the 77D. For some part, I can understand that, but personally, I think this model line has great potential... it's just that canon cripples the wrong specs, for my taste. 

I have been shooting with the classic rebel line for over a decade (350D0>550D>650D) and I really like it. Price-performance is great and since I don't have large hands, the rebel line fits perfectly. Actually, I think many people don't realize how much better the ergonomics are on the more recent models (side by side, the 350D feels like a brick in comparison). Still, that wasn't really an issue (at least to me it wasn't). I really prefer a smaller camera, because of the size, because of the weight but also because it looks more discreet. During all those years, the only thing that I really missed in comparison with the X0D line was the larger viewfinder. Viewfinders cannot be too large. To me, the other things were just "nice to have" (in case of a better autofocus system a "very nice to have"), but not necessary. Mainly, because there are either workarounds or the improvement of my own skill makes more difference than the difference in specs. So basically, in my point of view, the benefits were offset by the size (or the differences were to small to justify the size for my use). So something, which is pretty much as small and discreet as a normal rebel, but offers (most of) the features of the X0D is perfect for me. However, I can totally understand, that many think differently, because for many, the rebel line is too small.

In the end, I am extremely disappointed with Canon mainly for one reason: 4K. I am now in a situation, where I could _really, really_ use 4K, or actually, where I need it, but for various reasons have to shoot with (cheap) Canon and have a _very_ limited budget. Pretty much every cheap camera on the market can now film in 4K, but Canon does not offer this feature. Even low-quality 4K would be better than nothing... I was disappointed, that the 80D has no 4K and now it seems, that the new rebel line is no different. 
[sarcasm]Well, at least Canon is working on 8K... because everyone will need 8K....[/sarcasm]


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 12, 2017)

rebel mirrorslappers will disappear soon. they are on their last leg. EOS M is much cheaper to make for Canon and can be sold at a higer price point = significantly higher profit.

i find CR quite disappointing at the moment. They seem to have fairly dumb sources who can only leak images and specs as printed on a box. no clue what the difference between pentamirror and pentaprism might be. no clue, whether M6 has DPAF or not. those dumb sources can just send in smartphone pics of the canon camera boxes being printed in some obscure asian printshop where those rumor sources are toiling ... or so.


----------



## slclick (Feb 12, 2017)

AvTvM said:


> rebel mirrorslappers will disappear soon. they are on their last leg. EOS M is much cheaper to
> make for Canon and can becsold at a higer price point = significantly higher profit.
> 
> i find CR quite disappointingxat the moment. they seem to have really dimb sources who can only leak images snd specs as printed on the box. no clue what the difference between a pentamirror aand pentaprism may be. no clue, whether M6 has DPAF or not. thos dumb sources can just send in smartphone pics of the canon camera boxes being imprinted in some obscure asian printshop where those rumor sources are toiling ...



I'm not joking...How many letters/emails have you written to Canon?


----------



## PeterT (Feb 12, 2017)

AvTvM said:


> rebel mirrorslappers will disappear soon. they are on their last leg. EOS M is much cheaper to
> make for Canon and can becsold at a higer price point = significantly higher profit.



If similarly capable EOS M cameras are more expensive, then by stopping to produce rebel mirrorslappers there would be no Canon interchange lens cameras with a viewfinder left in their original price point. That would mean loss of customers i.e. loss of market share, I think. Canon has some faults, but its ability to keep market shares is (one of) the best. Therefore I do not believe to this scenario (but, of course, I can be wrong).


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 12, 2017)

AvTvM said:


> rebel mirrorslappers will disappear soon. they are on their last leg. EOS M is much cheaper to make for Canon and can be sold at a higer price point = significantly higher profit.



Well, except for the fact that dSLRs are still outselling MILCs 3:1 globally. And the fact that the MILC market isn't growing, and has failed to regain even 2012 levels. But by all means, don't let facts and objective reality get in the way of your opinions. :


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 12, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > rebel mirrorslappers will disappear soon. they are on their last leg. EOS M is much cheaper to make for Canon and can be sold at a higer price point = significantly higher profit.
> ...



have a look at 2016FY CIPA numbers. An d then tell me, whether mirrorslappers have fared better than mirrorless cameras or not. Until then you better shut up. 






http://www.photoscala.de/2017/02/12/cipa-zahlen-2016-licht-am-ende-des-tunnels/


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 12, 2017)

AvTvM said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



The green bar has reduced in size. The orange bar hasn't gotten any larger. The green bar is still 3 times larger than the orange bar. Tell me where a market-leading ILC manufacturer should allocate the bulk of their R&D resources. Oh wait, you already have — incessantly: a compact, FF MILC system. 

Sorry you wasted your money and time on a business degree. Actually, I'm not sorry about that...but I am sorry an educational institution and its faculty wasted their resources and time trying to educate you.


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 12, 2017)

think about supply side .. 

Nikon: no mirrorless offering [exept dead in water Nikon 1] 
Canon: only very limited APS-C offering, no attractive bodies until late 2016
Sony: A7 series Mk. II and FE lenses too expensive 

Given those facts, mirrorless has been holding its ground rather well ...


----------



## pokerz (Feb 13, 2017)

AvTvM said:


> think about supply side ..
> 
> Nikon: no mirrorless offering [exept dead in water Nikon 1]
> Canon: only very limited APS-C offering, no attractive bodies until late 2016
> ...


We all waiting for a Canon FF mirrorless which offers IBIS, 4k, compact and cheap STM lens with good optical quality.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 13, 2017)

AvTvM said:


> think about supply side ..
> 
> Nikon: no mirrorless offering [exept dead in water Nikon 1]
> Canon: only very limited APS-C offering, *no attractive bodies until late 2016*
> ...



How, exactly, does the highlighted bit above constitute a 'fact'?? As you try to weasel out of answering the question or avoid any attempt whatsoever, do keep in mind that Canon was the #3 MILC brand in 2015, and in 2016 they moved to #2 MILC brand globally. 

#kellyanneconway
#alternativefacts

The mirrorless market has been holding its ground, mostly (although as I've said, it's still not back up to 2012 levels). FF MILC is a tiny portion of that market. Consider that neither of the current top two MILC brands even offer a FF MILC. The fact that Canon is the #1 ILC maker, leads the 75% majority segment of the ILC market (dSLRs), and rapidly rose to #2 in the 25% minority segment as a late entrant with an 'only very limited APS-C offering' is strong evidence that they continue to make the correct choices. 

Then there's you, who thinks they should radically alter their proven course. I think we all know which is smart, and which is...the opposite.


----------



## Josh Denver (Feb 13, 2017)

Resisting the urge to get into the troll Mirror vs Mirrorless war. Hmmmm. Two xanax 0.5Mg. Hmmm. Done. 

Onto the subject: So I want to understand if I got this right:

1- 750D is getting replaced by an 800D: getting the new DPAF chip and 49 AF points, slight upper fps to.6 & E-Stabilization for video? (Give or take the other small upgrades) 

2- 760D is going 77D: Retaining nearly the same body as the 760D (which is a rebel with a top LCD and a front dial), with the same previously mentioned upgrades, right? 

I guess it's simply updating the two rebels simultaneously by the same degree give or take?

3- 80D vs 77D would be bigger stronger body, deeper buffer, 1/8000s shutter, prism OVF, headphone jack, AF micro-adjustment, yet lose on the new video IS and size?

Is that correct so far as anticipated/rumored?

If so, it's a regular upgrade and the only confusing thing about it is the naming. It would suggest the t6s successor is higher end vs the 70D (which is not and a different line) yet hell with the naming who cares really. 

My comment: the 800D is shaping up to be the youtubers' and V-logger best value for money and easiest camera to just pick up and create HD content for YT. Hell with focusing, hell with external monitors, hell with giant 4K, just no fuss, flip the screen, put on Face recognition, press record, upload. The E-IS is quite an achievement on the M5 (never though electronically based IS system would work so smooth) and is truly a great feature to get for video. Should be on all Canon DSLRs as a side option. 

For hardcore videographers, shooting DCI 4K and post-downsampling, using speedboosters on m43s, external Shogun/Assassins' rigs, De-Logging LUTs in Davinci Resolve, etc is the way to go. But you won't find all that at a 750D + 50mm kit price point. For that money you can only get a m43s and kit lens. 4K with deeper DOF and exceedingly more expensive glass, all without any AF. So, on that end of the budget for video, it's getting complicated to choose. At 1500+, it's easy, go mirrorless m43s 4K + EF SB + Canon glass.


----------



## Nininini (Feb 13, 2017)

AvTvM said:


> rebel mirrorslappers will disappear soon. they are on their last leg. EOS M is much cheaper to make for Canon and can be sold at a higer price point = significantly higher profit.



Rebels have been Canon thier best selling cameras since as far as I can remember, they're not going anywhere. But keep hoping, maybe Linux will take off too. Good luck.

Mirrorless and Rebel cameras released in the last 4 years:

EOS M2 *42* Amazon reviews
EOS M3 *91* Amazon reviews
EOS M5 *17* Amazon reviews

Rebel T5 *831* Amazon reviews
Rebel T5i *661* Amazon reviews
Rebel SL1 *562* Amazon reviews
Rebel T6 *253* Amazon reviews
Rebel T6i *275* Amazon reviews
Rebel T6S *122* Amazon reviews

do the math


----------



## Nininini (Feb 13, 2017)

Josh Denver said:


> My comment: the 800D is shaping up to be the youtubers' and V-logger best value for money and easiest camera to just pick up and create HD content for YT. Hell with focusing, hell with external monitors, hell with giant 4K, just no fuss, flip the screen, put on Face recognition, press record, upload. The E-IS is quite an achievement on the M5 (never though electronically based IS system would work so smooth) and is truly a great feature to get for video. Should be on all Canon DSLRs as a side option.



Nod, rebels are popular youtube cameras. I see them recommended in videos a lot when people ask what camera someone used. It makes sense, they're cheap, easy to use, the STM motor makes them quiet, and the screen is flippable so the youtuber can see themselves. And now they have DPAF, which should make them even more popular.


----------



## benkam (Feb 13, 2017)

Josh Denver said:


> Onto the subject: So I want to understand if I got this right:
> 
> 1- 750D is getting replaced by an 800D: getting the new DPAF chip and 49 AF points, slight upper fps to.6 & E-Stabilization for video? (Give or take the other small upgrades)
> 
> ...



It seems, based on the rumors and discussion here so far:

1 - The 800D as 750D successor will get DPAF but it is expected to retain the 750D/760D's 19-point AF system.

2 - The 77D as 760D successor will get DPAF but it is rumored to get the 80D's 45-point AF system. Apart from the top display and maybe some other small stuff, the more advanced AF system seems so far the main differentiator between the 800D and 77D and for the latter, the reason for the naming convention change.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Feb 13, 2017)

benkam said:


> Josh Denver said:
> 
> 
> > Onto the subject: So I want to understand if I got this right:
> ...



Its tinkering at the edges I have the 760D I bought it because I wanted a crop camera for wildlife to partner my full frame 5DS. Most of the wildlife I shoot is fairly static so the 19 point AF was exactly what I used on my former 7D for 4.5 years. I like the flippy screen and the lightweight body the 24MP sensor gives far better image quality than I got on the 7D with a much lighter body and enables a greater reach than the 5DS.

45 point AF on its own is not enough in my mind to consider the 77D a mid-level camera like a 80D and neither is DPAF its really an incremental upgraded 760D / T6S. I was hoping Canon would finally globalise the naming conventions instead of calling it something different in the US & Japan and 77D works for the higher spec camera but were wait & see on the 800D.


----------



## benkam (Feb 13, 2017)

jeffa4444 said:


> 45 point AF on its own is not enough in my mind to consider the 77D a mid-level camera like a 80D and neither is DPAF its really an incremental upgraded 760D / T6S. I was hoping Canon would finally globalise the naming conventions instead of calling it something different in the US & Japan and 77D works for the higher spec camera but were wait & see on the 800D.



The message Canon appear to be sending with the naming (or numbering) convention change, which initially seemed bizarre but is starting to make sense, is that the 77D will be "better" than the older 70D and closer to but still only "almost" an 80D. Maybe Canon also give it an improved OVF, headphone jack, etc. At that rate though, the main incentive for still getting the 80D would be the more robust body and bigger battery it shares with the 7D/5D/6D series.

IMO, having DPAF and 45-point AF in a Rebel form factor is huge. We'll have to see how Canon price the 77D but the gap with the 800D probably won't be as close as with the 750D and 760D but still below the 80D.

Who knows, we might not even see a "90D" but as with the 760D dropping a digit, the 80D successor could go single-digit as an "8D". That one would likely inherit the 7D2's 65-point AF (the 7D3 possibly moving up to a 150+ AF) and finally get an AF thumbstick. Also a new higher-res sensor with some kind of improved DPAF, of course 4K, rather overdue dual SD slots, and other niceties. 

Canon may move slowly, they're very deliberate, but they do seem to have a path laid down for continuing to evolve their DSLRs.


----------



## midluk (Feb 13, 2017)

Josh Denver said:


> Resisting the urge to get into the troll Mirror vs Mirrorless war. Hmmmm. Two xanax 0.5Mg. Hmmm. Done.


You know the difference between 0.5 Mg (megagram, also known as metric ton) and 0.5 mg (milligram)?


----------



## slclick (Feb 13, 2017)

midluk said:


> Josh Denver said:
> 
> 
> > Resisting the urge to get into the troll Mirror vs Mirrorless war. Hmmmm. Two xanax 0.5Mg. Hmmm. Done.
> ...



I think they meant they have enough to share, we all know we need it with this group.


----------



## Nininini (Feb 13, 2017)

Does the M5 with 5 axis IS still have the 3x digital zoom function without loss of quality.

If I will buy the 77D depends on if it still has the 3x digital zoom, it should, but ok.


----------



## Canon Rumors Guy (Feb 13, 2017)

$899USD body only for the EOS 77D, $1049 w/18-55 f/4-5.6 IS STM, $1499 w/18-135 IS STM.


----------



## slclick (Feb 13, 2017)

Canon Rumors said:


> $899USD body only for the EOS 77D, $1049 w/18-55 f/4-5.6 IS STM, $1499 w/18-135 IS STM.



Thanks! So it's roughly a $200 difference when compared to the 80D. I think it fills a gap in feature sets and price points quite nicely.


----------



## Nininini (Feb 13, 2017)

oh I just noticed something

this thing now has back-button focus button


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2017)

Canon Rumors said:


> $899USD body only for the EOS 77D, $1049 w/18-55 f/4-5.6 IS STM, $1499 w/18-135 IS STM.



Body only MAP pricing would then be

$799 - T7i / 800D (I'm assuming, I don't think that's been confirmed, might be $749?)
$899 - 77D
$1099 - 80D
$1499 - 7D2

If that's correct, the $64,000 questions become:


What doesn't the 800D get that the 77D does get?


What doesn't the 77D get that the 80D does get?

- A


----------



## rbielefeld (Feb 13, 2017)

Nininini said:


> Don't really care if a camera has 45 or 19 AF points. For slow moving or static objects, I almost always use the center AF point, half press the shutter and recompose, or I move the AF point manually.
> 
> _(I have heard some people argue that recomposing can actually cause a miss-focus due the recompose, I have not noticed that, maybe because I don't have any 1.2 or 1.4 lenses, but for me recompose works every time)_
> 
> ...



AF works wonderfully and is very accurate on flying birds of all sizes and against all sorts of backgrounds. All you need to do is keep your AF point on the bird. I shoot birds in flight and teach others to do so. I use just the center AF point for the most part, sometimes with assist points active around it. I shoot 600mm and often times with a 1.4x tc or 2.0x tc to get my birds large enough in the frame so I can keep my AF point on the bird. Here are some examples out of thousands I have taken. You can go to my website and see many more www.whistlingwingsphotography.com. This is not to brag, but to hopefully convince you to try AF on flying birds. It works and is the only way to go to get consistent results when shooting flying birds IMO


----------



## ronaldbyram (Feb 13, 2017)

Nininini said:


> arcer said:
> 
> 
> > TexPhoto said:
> ...



In seeing these new camera's that Canon is releasing. its making my head hurt trying to figure out the branding Tree structure. Has anyone got a flow chart on what camera falls where? 

I have a 60D and a 70D and then a 7D Mk II. I guess the T7I is the Rebel line and the 77D is it a 80D little brother?


----------



## mnclayshooter (Feb 13, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> Nininini said:
> 
> 
> > _(I have heard some people argue that recomposing can actually cause a miss-focus due the recompose, I have not noticed that, maybe because I don't have any 1.2 or 1.4 lenses, but for me recompose works every time)_
> ...




+1. When I use my 50mm prime, I end up with missed focus a lot if I'm shooting indoors without external lighting/flash etc and try to shoot it open. I just got another new puppy and I was trying to focus on her eyes... I missed very consistently... some due to her moving, but she was very sleepy at the time and was mostly still. Once I stopped it down a bit, and lived with higher ISO, I got sharp images. 

I will add, I have not completed my AFMA on the 50, as the previous new puppy chewed the hell out of my focus target. But, I don't think that was a very likely source of the missed focus as still lifes have been very sharp.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 13, 2017)

ronaldbyram said:


> In seeing these new camera's that Canon is releasing. its making my head hurt trying to figure out the branding Tree structure. Has anyone got a flow chart on what camera falls where?
> 
> I have a 60D and a 70D and then a 7D Mk II. I guess the T7I is the Rebel line and the 77D is it a 80D little brother?



Here you go! (Sorry for not including the D30, technical difficulties)


----------



## midluk (Feb 13, 2017)

Sharlin said:


> ronaldbyram said:
> 
> 
> > In seeing these new camera's that Canon is releasing. its making my head hurt trying to figure out the branding Tree structure. Has anyone got a flow chart on what camera falls where?
> ...


I think the solid and dotted arrows from the 50D should swap places. Even though name-wise the 60D is the successor, handling-wise the 7D is closer to the 50D than the 60D is.


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 13, 2017)

Sharlin said:


> Here you go! (Sorry for not including the D30, technical difficulties)



Thanks, very useful! 8)


----------



## drmikeinpdx (Feb 13, 2017)

rbielefel: Those may be the best bird photos I've seen, you do have a gift for shooting our feathered friends!

However, I believe you use a 1DXII, which is going to have (one would hope) much better autofocus performance than the Rebel class bodies we are discussing in this thread.

So, has anyone found a trick for getting outstanding autofocus performance from Rebel bodies? My latest is a T5i and I don't find the autofocus to be very impressive.


----------



## Josh Denver (Feb 13, 2017)

slclick said:


> midluk said:
> 
> 
> > Josh Denver said:
> ...



As a matter of fact I do. Stand by my words. Mg. Took two tons of xanax to help resist the urge from entering the mirrorless/rebels-are-dead discussion  I am a doctor and can prescribe plenty to go around for anti-trollism.

Thanks for the man who answered my questions above. Many. 

There are people above asuming the 77D is something that slots between the 70D and 80D based on numerical value of the name. I think that's absolutely not the case with these new cameras, backed by the facts from CR rumored specs and body photos. 

The 77D is not a "step-up" "above" say a 70D, it's just like its predecessor, a rebel with a top LCD. Nothing near 70D level. 

If anybody handled or shot with the entire Canon line up, you'd know that Canon make their cameras in certain levels that never overlap. A rebel is a rebel size with certain "feel". a 60-70-80D is that level with another feel. A 50D-7D-7DII is again another feel. They all differ in size, build material, size and number of buttons, and of courss features. But even if an old higher level model was out-featured by a lower level model, they're definitely different in class/feel and not interchangeable. Point is: 

A 70D is another level compared to the t6s and 77D pictured, these are top-lcd-rebels. For instance the size of the rear command dial is telltale sign of a lower level model. The 70D has a larger body, more weather resistant, better built, it does higher fps, has a stronger 1/8000s shutter, has a large prism vs mirrors, just not something that can be "below" the 77D. It's only below the 80D and that's obvious (70 to 80D you know). 

The 77D is a super rebel. Just like the t6s was in the line up but probably more higher end the track hence the name, but we don't know. They might, based on Canon history, be very well both rebels with the same features with only the known differences of the new rebel Top LCD, back command dial and the t6s vs t6i updates. 

The name, is absolutely utterly confusing, because it puts it at an "ultimately" higher level camera vs the 70D, while it's not even ultimately higher than the 60D. 

Is the 70D still on production or discontinued with the 80D successor? 

If so, it's quite logical Canon just wants something between the 800D and 80D. So they had two choices, call it a rebel camera and give it an 850D designation, or call it a lighter version of the 80D, thus the inevitable 75D/77D designation. They went with the later. 

In the end, all I care about is the resulting camera. It looks identical to the t6s which I LOVE body-wise. All they need to do to get a customer here is eliminate or reduce moire in video, make it a good, modern, sharp 1080p image, like the 80D at least and all the Nikons, plus give it that 5 axis stabilization. Two things I hope and both seem a surs thing, even on the T7i, in which case if true I'll get that, unless they tempt me with a 77D extra video feature. 

One thing I expect and bet on, is that both cameras will get 60p 1080p, and based on that, the 77D will have its video HDR mode at 1080p with manual controls, giving a far higher DR video without sacrificing manual controls or having to drop to 720p (Due to HDR requiring 30 x 2 = 60p frame-rate) as the current t6s. 

I bet both will get the new Fine Detail picture style. My favourite PS on new Canon cameras. Can go very low in contrast and gives great balanced colours without overblowing any parameter. Hope they get these little forgotten polishes.


----------



## scyrene (Feb 14, 2017)

rbielefeld said:


> _(I have heard some people argue that recomposing can actually cause a miss-focus due the recompose, I have not noticed that, maybe because I don't have any 1.2 or 1.4 lenses, but for me recompose works every time)_



These are stunning shots, but it's rather easy to say 'keep the AF point on the bird' and rather harder in practice. *Especially* with a fairly near foreground (i.e. anything but the sky), the camera much prefers to focus on the background, and keeping faster/more erratic birds under the active AF point can be very difficult indeed, especially with super-tele lenses.


----------



## Chaitanya (Feb 14, 2017)

slclick said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > $899USD body only for the EOS 77D, $1049 w/18-55 f/4-5.6 IS STM, $1499 w/18-135 IS STM.
> ...


EOS 80D with 18-135mm USM lens is currently selling for 1499$ vs 77D with 18-135mm STM lens for 1499$.
This kit doesnt make sense at all, when the pricing was for this kit Canon marketing team was surely high on drugs.


----------



## dufflover (Feb 14, 2017)

I mean if the target market for the 77D don't know anything about pentamirror vs pentaprism, or fps vs overall buffer, or AF points vs AF smarts, then they could get away with making 77D in ways inferior to the 70D. It's not the first time they've tried it (like taking AFMA out of the 60D; "who uses it" right?)


----------



## rbielefeld (Feb 14, 2017)

drmikeinpdx said:


> rbielefel: Those may be the best bird photos I've seen, you do have a gift for shooting our feathered friends!
> 
> However, I believe you use a 1DXII, which is going to have (one would hope) much better autofocus performance than the Rebel class bodies we are discussing in this thread.
> 
> So, has anyone found a trick for getting outstanding autofocus performance from Rebel bodies? My latest is a T5i and I don't find the autofocus to be very impressive.



I actually shot with a Rebel the other day; a client's. I helped them set up the camera and then shot with it while they shot with my 1D. I agree, the AF system is not as good, it should not be, but it still is very capable of catching birds in flight. The trick, in my opinion, is to just use the center AF point and then it is your job to keep the point on the bird. If you rely on multiple AF points you will end up with many almost sharp images.


----------



## rbielefeld (Feb 14, 2017)

scyrene said:


> rbielefeld said:
> 
> 
> > _(I have heard some people argue that recomposing can actually cause a miss-focus due the recompose, I have not noticed that, maybe because I don't have any 1.2 or 1.4 lenses, but for me recompose works every time)_
> ...



Yes, it takes practice, but to state, as some have, that the camera's AF system cannot do it is not correct. That was my point. Along with not dismissing AF capability. These cameras are just tools. We need to be able to keep up our end of the deal as photographers.


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 14, 2017)

well, if we can [almost] have self-driving cars, I don't think it would be asking too much, if after all these years [all] mirrorslappers came with an AF system that can autonomously track a bird in flight and deliver 100% sharp images - at last against empty sky and as long as user manages to keep bird in frame, anywhere in frame that is. Having to keep a tiny, single AF point on a fast and erratically moving target is asking a hell of a lot. Especially when camera boasts having 449, 100 or 500 AF points and 20+ different AF setup paramteres ... rather poor and annoying. Definitely NOT a good tool by *my 2017 standards*. In effect, most promising AF-workflow is still pretty much as it was 25 years ago with film SLRs.


----------



## rbielefeld (Feb 14, 2017)

AvTvM said:


> well, if we can [almost] have self-driving cars, I don't think it would be asking too much, if after all these years [all] mirrorslappers came with an AF system that can autonomously track a bird in flight and deliver 100% sharp images - at last against empty sky and as long as user manages to keep bird in frame, anywhere in frame that is. Having to keep a tiny, single AF point on a fast and erratically moving target is asking a hell of a lot. Especially when camera boasts having 449, 100 or 500 AF points and 20+ different AF setup paramteres ... rather poor and annoying. Definitely NOT a good tool by *my 2017 standards*. In effect, most promising AF-workflow is still pretty much as it was 25 years ago with film SLRs.



I will respectfully disagree. Why? Because, I like the challenge. When cameras come along, and they will, that can do what you state, I will be not nearly as interested in photographing birds in flight or any tough to capture subject. I like striving to succeed at something that is difficult. It is so much more rewarding when you get good at it and start getting great images on a consistent basis. When cameras get so good that virtually anyone and everyone can get "the shot" it will no longer be photography for mel It will be just shooting pictures.


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 14, 2017)

point taken. 

However, if I have to pay for AF - and I do - then i want it to be "2017 good". If I want(ed) a challenge, testing my manual dexterity, patience, concentration and hand-eye-co-ordination, I can take up golf or learn to play the a vilin or switch AF off and focus manually. ;D


----------



## Sporgon (Feb 14, 2017)

rbielefeld said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > well, if we can [almost] have self-driving cars, I don't think it would be asking too much, if after all these years [all] mirrorslappers came with an AF system that can autonomously track a bird in flight and deliver 100% sharp images - at last against empty sky and as long as user manages to keep bird in frame, anywhere in frame that is. Having to keep a tiny, single AF point on a fast and erratically moving target is asking a hell of a lot. Especially when camera boasts having 449, 100 or 500 AF points and 20+ different AF setup paramteres ... rather poor and annoying. Definitely NOT a good tool by *my 2017 standards*. In effect, most promising AF-workflow is still pretty much as it was 25 years ago with film SLRs.
> ...



He-he, I was called 'arrogant' and 'selfish' plus some other choice adjectives by a member on CR a couple of years ago for pointing this out ! The march of photographic technology has certainly effected "the shot". Just look at the sport and wildlife images produced to day; of the better ones any one would have been 'the shot" just twenty or so years ago. So the standards of what we consider to be good continue to rise, we become desensitised to anything that is only above average, and yet there are many, many shots from days gone by that are technically woefully inferior to what we can produce now, and yet they are still regarded as great shots. So there's hope for photographic creativity going forward. 

On a different note, I don't think anyone has suggested Canon are simply using the xxD moniker as a lure to more sales, people thinking they are getting a "more professional camera", maybe before Canon run out of x0D numbers. I suspect they are because sticking a higher grade badge on a lower model is something the marketing people jumped on years ago. Nikon comes to mind. In the 70's Nikon made their professional camera - the Nikon F, and it was basically carved from granite, and had umpteen ball bearing bearings in it, metal cogs etc, and cost about the price of a half decent car. Their more affordable middle range camera was always Nikkormat. Then in the late 70's the new Nikkormat was called Nikon. Wow, the howls of outrage from Nikon diehards. Worse still, they then brought out a budget camera - the Nikon EM. I think some Nikon diehards committed harry-karry then ! Of course those of us that now use Canon know where this all led in Nikon's fortunes


----------



## rrcphoto (Feb 14, 2017)

Chaitanya said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



prices fall over time.

the 90D will be more. and the cycle repeats. canon never (nor does any company) price a new model with respects to the current on sale price of another model.


----------



## superdrive25 (Feb 15, 2017)

77D seems to be better than 70D:

- Faster DIGIC 7 processor on 77D compared to DIGIC 5+ on 70D
- More Dual Pixel AF points on 77D (45) compared to just 19 on 70D
- Bluetooth on 77D
- New guided user interface on 77D
- 1080p/60 fps IPB on 77D
- HDR on 77D 
- ISO up to 25600 vs 12800 on 70D
- 24.2 megapixel sensor on 77D vs 20.2 on 70D


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 15, 2017)

superdrive25 said:


> 77D seems to be better than 70D:



70D seems to be better than 77D:


AFMA
Larger pentaprism OVF
A C mode
Larger battery
7 vs 6 fps
Weather sealing

The point is, the bodies are not directly comparable. The 77D, obviously, is more modern, but the 70D has those traditional "xxD" features that the 77D apparently does not.


----------



## scyrene (Feb 15, 2017)

rbielefeld said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > rbielefeld said:
> ...



That's fair. And we're asking a lot of the equipment in this case. To be honest, I haven't even figured out precisely what AF settings are best - I rather wish there was a 'bird in flight' mode!


----------



## superdrive25 (Feb 17, 2017)

Question is does 77D comes with the ISO 160 multiples?


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 17, 2017)

superdrive25 said:


> Question is does 77D comes with the ISO 160 multiples?



From official Canon specs:



> ISO Sensitivity
> Auto (100-25600), 100-25600 (in 1/3-stop or whole stop increments)
> ISO can be expanded to H: 51200


----------



## drmikeinpdx (Feb 17, 2017)

*77D Sensor*

I was hoping that the new 77D would have the same well-reviewed sensor that is found in the 80D. Most of the early "hands on" reviews don't confirm that, so I was looking around the net and found this:

_Canon EOS 77D review: New sensor
24.2MP APS-C sensor is all new
Not a back-lit design
ISO 100-25,600 (51,200 extended)
Latest Digic 7 processor
Full HD video to 60fps
On paper the 77D's sensor looks to be the very same 24.2-megapixel one as you'll find in the 80D. That's not precisely the case, however, as it's a new construction, paired with the latest Digic 7 processor._

Here's the link: http://www.pocket-lint.com/review/140226-canon-eos-77d-preview-lucky-7s-for-the-80d-lite

If it's not the same sensor, I'm going to wait until we see some sensor tests published before I buy.

Has anyone seen any other references to the sensor other than simply the number of pixels?


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 17, 2017)

yes, there was mention in a post here - probably in this very thread - that 77D sensor has slightly different size (by 1/10 mm) than 80D sensor - also indicating that it is a different sensor.


----------



## Ozzy666 (Feb 18, 2017)

Many guys pointed to the lack of AF micro adjustment, but i think it is still not getting enough attention and being overlooked. For me it is make or break feature. Mirrorless cameras simply have no problem with lens adjustment due to their nature, so for Canon logically thinking this is a must be feature to be included in all cameras regardless of price. Why on earth to buy camera and invest in lenses if they are not perfectly matched to each other even being from the same brand? I have 60mm macro which is missing perfect focus by couple of cm , yes I'm trying to overcome this problem by focusing two cm further but this is ridiculous. I have the same problem with my 70-200 to lesser degree. So Canon cameras only starts from 80d for 1000$.
Sold my Rebel T4i and started to look toward Fuji xt1, liked the quality, colors, EVF but not that tiny grip and also expensive lenses. When i saw the news about 77 then started to hope that price will be right and with AF micro adjust I will buy it probably. Unfortunately this is not the case. Overpriced and no AFMA making it inferior again. Jesus! 900$ body and no match for their own lenses. Unbelievable.This is not premium or luxury feature.Just necessity.However if they cannot upgrade motor for 50mm 1.4 in 25 years no questions left.


----------



## K (Feb 18, 2017)

I'm not sure I understand this model at all...(77D). 

It seems to run contrary to the trend of specialization and consolidation of DSLR body types in a shrinking DSLR market place. 

That and there's a LOT of overlap between this model and the 70D, 80D and some parts of the Rebel line. Begs the question - what is the purpose of this DSLR?

My first impression was -- this kinda undermines the 80D. Look, I get all the subtle pro features like AFMA and whatnot. But overall, the bulk of the specs which most consumers would look at are a direct competitor to the 80D.

With Rebel line cameras getting strong features, and the 7D2 price dropping -- these inbetween APS-C cameras are getting squeezed it would seem. 

I looks like the 77D is basically an 80D in a Rebel format with the crappy Rebel handling. 

I don't know. I think the 80D should have had a dual card slot to really solidify it as an entry-level pro APS-C, with the 7D2 of course being the flagship. Similar to Nikon, who has the D7200 and D500. D7200 is one hell of a high end APS-C stills camera. Canon's edge here, forcing a non-comparison is the articulating screen, DPAF and video capability. On stills, the D7200 destroys Canon for better sensor, better AF, dual SD, metering.... But can't even come close in video.

In this realm, Canon gambles that video is important to users. I think they are right to some extent. For enthusiasts or dads looking for a family camera, the 80D line for the money allows one to skip out on buying a high end video camera. DPAF with articulating touch screen is really that good.


Some of you snobs might scoff at me calling the 80D entry level pro. Well, there's a lot of people shooting for money still using the 60D and 70D....Even chain stores like Picture People are running 60D. These cameras are being used for pro applications, but Canon does not treat the camera as such.


----------



## benkam (Feb 18, 2017)

The 77D makes perfect sense as the eventual trickle-down of DPAF for the Canon bodies. 

It does not undermine the 80D. In a sense, the 80D undermines it. But in the end, the 77D and 80D both present consumers with a great choice. 

You want DPAF but don't like the 80D's larger body and are willing to give up weather sealing, a larger battery, and a headphone jack to keep it down to Rebel size? Then go get the 77D.

You want DPAF and also want weather sealing, a larger battery, a headphone jack and are willing to carry, or even desire, a larger body? Then go get the 80D.

This also bodes well for the 80D successor. To create more separation with the 77D and the 80D, the "90D" (or whatever it will be called) will have to offer more, not just a new sensor, 4K, but alos maybe some kind of improved DPAF, an extra fps to bring it to original 7D speed, dual card slots, while keeping the more robust and bigger form factor. And with the 77D and 80D sharing key technology, Canon might have to bring it the 80D successor a lot sooner than what would usually be expected of them.


----------



## Talys (Feb 18, 2017)

benkam said:


> The 77D makes perfect sense as the eventual trickle-down of DPAF for the Canon bodies.
> 
> It does not undermine the 80D. In a sense, the 80D undermines it. But in the end, the 77D and 80D both present consumers with a great choice.
> 
> ...



Yup, I totally agree. The 77D's biggest problem right now is that the street prices of 80D (especially from resellers who split up kits or resell international copies from other regions) are practically the same, or sometimes less, than the 77D. 



benkam said:


> This also bodes well for the 80D successor. To create more separation with the 77D and the 80D, the "90D" (or whatever it will be called) will have to offer more, not just a new sensor, 4K, but alos maybe some kind of improved DPAF, an extra fps to bring it to original 7D speed, dual card slots, while keeping the more robust and bigger form factor. And with the 77D and 80D sharing key technology, Canon might have to bring it the 80D successor a lot sooner than what would usually be expected of them.



80D Mk2?  I think that a 80D successor coming sooner rather than later will help 77D sales, more than anything. It will allow more pricing separation, too.

I think 4K would be the big, splashy feature (though this might rain on new 7D's parade). Really good 5GHz WiFi to allow fast transfer of RAW to desktop PC over WiFi would make me buy it instantly. Some more UI refinements would be welcome. There will definitely be Bluetooth, and while I'd definitely get a BT trigger, it's not a reason to jump on a new body.

I think that AF only has a little room for improvement now; most people with DPAF are pretty satisfied with focus speed. Dual card slots will probably be saved for xD models. Maybe more megapixels?


----------



## benkam (Feb 19, 2017)

Talys said:


> 80D Mk2?  I think that a 80D successor coming sooner rather than later will help 77D sales, more than anything. It will allow more pricing separation, too.
> 
> I think 4K would be the big, splashy feature (though this might rain on new 7D's parade). Really good 5GHz WiFi to allow fast transfer of RAW to desktop PC over WiFi would make me buy it instantly. Some more UI refinements would be welcome. There will definitely be Bluetooth, and while I'd definitely get a BT trigger, it's not a reason to jump on a new body.
> 
> I think that AF only has a little room for improvement now; most people with DPAF are pretty satisfied with focus speed. Dual card slots will probably be saved for xD models. Maybe more megapixels?


Good stuff. Apart from new sensor and 4K, the logical next major step for the 80D successor, would be to inherit the 7D2's 65-point AF (the 7D3 then moves up to an even more sophisticated AF system). The 80D successor might even get an AF thumbstick (or could also just rely on the touchscreen) and it's due for dual card slots too. 

As with the 760D successor becoming the 77D, I'd hazard to speculate that crammed will all those good stuff, the 80D successor could be promoted to single-digit status. Thus, it could become the "8D" right behind the speed specialist, more rugged 7D-series. Or if the 8D is deemed confusing as 80D successor, and to also signal a progression through the numbering, Canon could always call it the 9D.


----------



## drmikeinpdx (Feb 21, 2017)

I was hoping the new 77D would be like a mini 80D, but that's looking unlikely. I may just stick with my old T5i as my walk around camera for another couple of years.

I would have paid a good price for a miniaturized 80D, but Canon's marketing people apparently don't want to offer a product like that.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 21, 2017)

drmikeinpdx said:


> I would have paid a good price for a miniaturized 80D, but Canon's marketing people apparently don't want to offer a product like that.



They do provide one, though, it's called the M5. There's probably much more demand for that one than for a hypothetical Rebel-sized 80D DSLR.


----------



## mistaspeedy (Feb 21, 2017)

Hopefully the 77D will have an even better sensor than the 80D, some sort of small refinement other than the new ISO 25600.
Maybe we'll get that higher ISO dynamic range up a bit more, to at least match the older models (760D and 7D mark II) as can be seen in the Dxomark data:
https://gyazo.com/870e7bf2bbec9343a740d9bb09fa17b5


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Feb 21, 2017)

mistaspeedy said:


> Hopefully the 77D will have an even better sensor than the 80D, some sort of small refinement other than the new ISO 25600.
> Maybe we'll get that higher ISO dynamic range up a bit more, to at least match the older models (760D and 7D mark II) as can be seen in the Dxomark data:
> https://gyazo.com/870e7bf2bbec9343a740d9bb09fa17b5


It looks like the same 80D image sensor, but JPEG image processing promises high ISO better a whole stop on the new 77D.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=31992.0


----------



## LonelyBoy (Feb 22, 2017)

Sharlin said:


> They do provide one, though, it's called the M5. There's probably much more demand for that one than for a hypothetical Rebel-sized 80D DSLR.



You are, probably, correct, but can the M5's AF track a person running towards the camera as well as PD? Handing the wife an 80D to shoot at a race would probably be a non-starter.

It's also frustrating to not be able to get a body with a flippy screen and a joystick. Or dual cards.


----------



## drmikeinpdx (Mar 1, 2017)

DPReview seems to think that the sensor in the 77D is the same one found in the 80D. I have no idea if that's true. Guess we will have to wait until Canon allows people to publish their reviews.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/5322759563/buyers-guide-canon-eos-rebel-t7i-800d-vs-eos-77d-vs-eos-80d

_"The Rebel T7i, EOS 77D and EOS 80D share the same 24MP APS-C CMOS sensor. This sensor sees a significant improvement in Raw dynamic range over previous Canon sensors, though still falls behind most competitors. The Rebel and 77D have Canon's latest Digic 7 processor, compared to the Digic 6 on the 80D. Canon claims that the Digic 7 provides a full-stop improvement in JPEG high ISO noise levels compared to Digic 6, though comparing the Digic 7-powered EOS M5 against the 80D seems to contradict that. Raw noise performance in low light should be similar between all models."_


----------



## rrcphoto (Mar 1, 2017)

*Re: 77D Sensor*



drmikeinpdx said:


> I was hoping that the new 77D would have the same well-reviewed sensor that is found in the 80D. Most of the early "hands on" reviews don't confirm that, so I was looking around the net and found this:
> 
> _Canon EOS 77D review: New sensor
> 24.2MP APS-C sensor is all new
> ...



hmm is that the "new sensor" that is in the M5 perhaps?

there's one thing to note. Canon USED to update it's sensors with nearly every camera release in the past. IMO, the "lurch" at 18MP was canon getting new fab design rules and equipment updated in their fabs, so they left the old equipment spew out sensors for as long as they could.

Now it seems canon's back into it's game of creating new sensors each go around. hopefully better, but it's hard to say.


----------



## rrcphoto (Mar 1, 2017)

drmikeinpdx said:


> DPReview seems to think that the sensor in the 77D is the same one found in the 80D. I have no idea if that's true. Guess we will have to wait until Canon allows people to publish their reviews.
> 
> https://www.dpreview.com/articles/5322759563/buyers-guide-canon-eos-rebel-t7i-800d-vs-eos-77d-vs-eos-80d
> 
> _"The Rebel T7i, EOS 77D and EOS 80D share the same 24MP APS-C CMOS sensor. This sensor sees a significant improvement in Raw dynamic range over previous Canon sensors, though still falls behind most competitors. The Rebel and 77D have Canon's latest Digic 7 processor, compared to the Digic 6 on the 80D. Canon claims that the Digic 7 provides a full-stop improvement in JPEG high ISO noise levels compared to Digic 6, though comparing the Digic 7-powered EOS M5 against the 80D seems to contradict that. Raw noise performance in low light should be similar between all models."_



normal liveview for canon DSLR's is I think 30hz - could be 60, but I think it's 30.

M5's sensor is running at 120hz for liveview.


----------

