# First ND Filter, how many stops? Screw on or Lee Filter System?



## Ryan85 (Jan 6, 2015)

What ND filters would you recommend for a first one? How many stops and why? I'll be using it for landscapes and slower shuter speeds during the day.

Thanks, Ryan


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 6, 2015)

6-stops is a good starting point, IMO – allows good water motion blur. 10-stops gives cloud motion and 'removes' people from scenes (I use a 10-stop for architecture). 

The main (only?) reason to use the Lee or other rectangular setup is for graduated NDs, circular screw-in are terrible for that, better for everything else. I suppose a secondary reason is that with a Lee holder you just need adapters for different lens sizes, but the same can be accomplished with a large (82mm) round filter and step-up rings. 

Some may recommend a variable ND filter, and that might be a good option if you don't shoot ultrawide (<24mm FF) and don't need it to go that dark. With ultrawide angles you get a Maltese cross artifact, sometimes at wide or even normal FLs at very dark settings. Personally, that renders variable NDs unusable for me.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 6, 2015)

Ryan85 said:


> What ND filters would you recommend for a first one? How many stops and why? I'll be using it for landscapes and slower shuter speeds during the day.



Unfortunately, there is no one size fits all, and vari filters have severe drawbacks esp. with wide angle lenses. If you only get one filter, I'd really go for it with a 10 stop - and you still won't get very long exposure times in bright light even stopped down to f22.

But get a good brand like B+W/Heliopan or you'll get bad colors. The problem not easily avoided with very dark filters is ir leakage causing an amber-ish color cast. Either you accept this and try to remove it in post, or you'll end up with a very expensive hot mirror ir-nd filter combination or two filters. But if you're on a budget that's not vital, you don't even need to get the most fancy coating unless you plan to avoid flare at all costs.


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## Ryan85 (Jan 6, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> 6-stops is a good starting point, IMO – allows good water motion blur. 10-stops gives cloud motion and 'removes' people from scenes (I use a 10-stop for architecture).
> 
> The main (only?) reason to use the Lee or other rectangular setup is for graduated NDs, circular screw-in are terrible for that, better for everything else. I suppose a secondary reason is that with a Lee holder you just need adapters for different lens sizes, but the same can be accomplished with a large (82mm) round filter and step-up rings.
> 
> Some may recommend a variable ND filter, and that might be a good option if you don't shoot ultrawide (<24mm FF) and don't need it to go that dark. With ultrawide angles you get a Maltese cross artifact, sometimes at wide or even normal FLs at very dark settings. Personally, that renders variable NDs unusable for me.



Thank you for your advice.


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## Ryan85 (Jan 6, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Ryan85 said:
> 
> 
> > What ND filters would you recommend for a first one? How many stops and why? I'll be using it for landscapes and slower shuter speeds during the day.
> ...



Thank you for your advice too.


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## sagittariansrock (Jan 6, 2015)

There's one more advantage to Lee filters: you will need to make all adjustments without a 10-stop ND filter, which is opaque for practical purposes, and it is much easier to slide it in rather than screwing it in.
However, if you are not using graduated filters, then this advantage is probably not enough to counter all the hassles of a square filter system.
I have a 6-stop Hitech and a 10-stop Lee, and the former gets very little use. I do plan to switch to the 6-stop Lee sometime in the future, now that it is available.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 6, 2015)

That's a good point, although I've found that in daytime, live view exposure simulation allows me to compose/focus through the 10-stop filter.


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## sagittariansrock (Jan 6, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> That's a good point, although I've found that in daytime, live view exposure simulation allows me to compose/focus through the 10-stop filter.



Do you use a Z finder or something like that? I am finding live view composition really difficult in bright sun light...


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## Oneand0 (Jan 6, 2015)

I agree with sagittariansrock. Definitely go with the Lee Filter System and get the soft, I never use my GND hard line anymore.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?N=10292653&InitialSearch=yes&sts=pi

Those three filters stacked on each other will give you your 6 stops needed. Of course you need to get the adapter ring according to the mm of the front of your lens and the Lee Filter Holder system. I have used the GND's as ND's a lot of the time by just lowering them far down in front of the lens. Not to mention when you're ready for the Lee Big Stopper or Little Stopper you are ready to just slip on and off with same system. No screwing in anything, just slip on and off.
I also use the filter system with my SinghRay .9 Reverse that is priceless at the right time.

Good Luck!


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## dash2k8 (Jan 6, 2015)

A warning on Vari-ND's: some of them are so thick that they distort the edges with fringing and CA.

FYI, I started with ND8's and stacked on another until I needed much darker, then I bought ND64's. ND2's and ND4's are fairly useless to me since they didn't slow things down enough.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 6, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> That's a good point, although I've found that in daytime, live view exposure simulation allows me to compose/focus through the 10-stop filter.



1+ ... at least with newer cameras and their -3LV af sensitivity, it's ok to af through the filter in daylight. You can also use Magic Lantern's "night vision" mode that boosts the lv's gain for manual focus.

Of course it'd be better to be able to focus w/o the filter, but the screw-on glass filters are easy to carry around and cheaper to buy for us laymen using this filter type only from time to time.



dash2k8 said:


> FYI, I started with ND8's and stacked on another until I needed much darker, then I bought ND64's. ND2's and ND4's are fairly useless to me since they didn't slow things down enough.



Mild nd filters are for use with fast prime lenses in bright light when your shutter speed is maxed out. I bought a cpl and use it for his purpose, one filter less to carry around.


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## AcutancePhotography (Jan 6, 2015)

I like the convenience of a variable ND filter. I shoot with Marumi. I like their quality. I have not noticed any inadvertent crosses, although I can deliberately cause the cross if I try real hard. I think that some people over state the cross effect with variable ND filters. Yes it can happen, but it can also easily be prevented. 

In my opinion and for my types of photography, the risks of the cross effect do not overshadow the advantages of the Variable density. Other photographers may find the risk higher. 

I think of it kinda like a zoom lens. I am sure that I will get better quality if I packed a set of 3-5 fixed-density filters, but the convenience of the vari ND has a value in itself in that I only have to pack one ND filter.

Like most things in photography, it is a trade-off. But I think that if someone is starting out using ND filters that a good variable one is a good place to start.


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## RLPhoto (Jan 6, 2015)

I like the LEE system alot and it's really versatile especially with the grad NDs. I have a 2 stop and 10 stop ND filter, a 2 stop soft and hard edge grad NDs. I found if I needed 4 stops of ND, I could flip the Grad upside down into the holder and it would cover the shot entirely and combine it with a 2 stop ND. 

The only screw on filters I have are polarizers and that's because I had them before the LEE system and the Lee polarizers are pricey and hard to find.


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## tculotta (Jan 6, 2015)

I'm going to offer advice by not offering any at all. What I will say is that a few of my recommendations would run counter to some of what has been stated here. Why? Not because they're wrong and I am right (or vice versa). More likely because I shoot different subjects than they do. I suggest you take stock of what you shoot and how you might use NDs and then make a purchase based upon that thinking. 

FWIW, I use the Lee holder and find it to be very user friendly. I have the following, and use them all based upon circumstances (which for the grad NDs can change minute to minute as the sun sets or rises so don't lock yourself into one way of doing things):

Lee 10-stop Big Stopper
Lee 6-stop Little Stopper
Singh-Ray 2-stop solid ND
Singh-Ray Reverse Grad hard edge 2-stop (I really like this one)
Lee 3-stop soft grad ND
Lee 2-stop hard grad ND

Google different search terms as there are a lot of "articles" out there than can help you refine your thinking and approach. Good luck.

Cheers,
Ted


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## AndreeOnline (Jan 6, 2015)

I am also looking into Lee Filters. I want to use them both for photography and with a mattebox when shooting video, so the 4x4 size makes sense for me.

I don't see any "normal" solid NDs on Lee's site. Will the hard grads cover the whole image when positioned properly? By looking at the images they don't seem big enough for this.

If not, that seems like an oversight in such a mature system...


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## sagittariansrock (Jan 6, 2015)

AndreeOnline said:


> I am also looking into Lee Filters. I want to use them both for photography and with a mattebox when shooting video, so the 4x4 size makes sense for me.
> 
> I don't see any "normal" solid NDs on Lee's site. Will the hard grads cover the whole image when positioned properly? By looking at the images they don't seem big enough for this.
> 
> If not, that seems like an oversight in such a mature system...



The hard grads are not supposed to cover the whole image evenly in any position unless maybe you have a 46mm filter thread.
Lee makes a full range of solid ND filters:
http://www.leefilters.com/index.php/camera/bigstopper


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## AndreeOnline (Jan 6, 2015)

sagittariansrock said:


> Lee makes a full range of solid ND filters:
> http://www.leefilters.com/index.php/camera/bigstopper



I know of those two. 6 stops are too much for video (sometimes). Looking for a 2 and a 3 stop solid filter in addition to the "Stoppers".


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## sagittariansrock (Jan 6, 2015)

AndreeOnline said:


> sagittariansrock said:
> 
> 
> > Lee makes a full range of solid ND filters:
> ...



Scroll down the page- they make all kinds of ND filters from 1 stop to 3 stops in half stop variants (though the half stop ones are hard to find). They make 2 and 3 stop glass ones, which are more expensive.
For example:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?ntt=resin&refineSearchString=&atclk=ND+Combinations_Standard+NDs&ci=114&N=4026728350+4291378429+4294951825+4242329417


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## Ryan85 (Jan 7, 2015)

Thank you for the advice


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## dash2k8 (Jan 7, 2015)

> I bought a cpl and use it for his purpose, one filter less to carry around.



In case the OP doesn't know, CPL's start producing strange color gradation when used on ultrawides like the 10-22mm. Not sure what the "minimum safe lens length" is. 24mm?


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## sagittariansrock (Jan 7, 2015)

dash2k8 said:


> > I bought a cpl and use it for his purpose, one filter less to carry around.
> 
> 
> 
> In case the OP doesn't know, CPL's start producing strange color gradation when used on ultrawides like the 10-22mm. Not sure what the "minimum safe lens length" is. 24mm?



It is caused when the field of view of the lens covers a large area of sky, wide enough so that the effect of polarization varies significantly (maximum perpendicular to the sun, minimum parallel to the sun's rays). So, as long as your composition doesn't cover too much of the sky, you should be fine.


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## cellomaster27 (Jan 7, 2015)

This is the perfect discussion for me. I have the 10-22mm and I was going to buy a tiffen 77mm variable ND filter. But if I can't use it at <24mm (I'm assuming FF values) then what's the point. I was planning on using it for blurring clouds and waves... It seems like the best value for money?


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## AndreeOnline (Jan 7, 2015)

sagittariansrock said:


> Scroll down the page- they make all kinds of ND filters from 1 stop to 3 stops in half stop variants (though the half stop ones are hard to find). They make 2 and 3 stop glass ones, which are more expensive.



Thank you. 

Don't understand how I missed that. Forgive my retardedness.


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## dash2k8 (Jan 7, 2015)

> It is caused when the field of view of the lens covers a large area of sky, wide enough so that the effect of polarization varies significantly (maximum perpendicular to the sun, minimum parallel to the sun's rays). So, as long as your composition doesn't cover too much of the sky, you should be fine.



Thanks for clarifying. I completely forgot to mention that this only pertains to the sky. I simply assumed most people would use CPL's to bring the blue back in the sky.


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## scotia (Jan 7, 2015)

sagittariansrock said:


> AndreeOnline said:
> 
> 
> > I am also looking into Lee Filters. I want to use them both for photography and with a mattebox when shooting video, so the 4x4 size makes sense for me.
> ...



I routinely use Lee hard grads in place of solid ND filters on a FF, on lenses with 77 mm adapters, without any problems (except when I also need that grad to do the job of a grad….). I would not use soft grads for this. 

When I was first buying filters I was advised by two pro landscape photographers to start with hard grads, not soft grades, particularly as I live on the coast and like to shoot at dawn and dusk. One pro had done some tests that showed that on a DSLR the gradient of his soft grads was too gentle to gain the full rating of the grad within the frame. I have subsequently added a 0.6 soft grad to my collection (along with Big and Little Stoppers) for use among the mountains, but it is my least used filter. I should say that I am in the UK so more usually filtering cloudy skies - which can be as bright or brighter towards the horizon - than blue skies and fluffy clouds.


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## siegsAR (Jan 7, 2015)

I have a Nisi 10 stop 100mm square filter.
I love it but I think the 6 stop is a better fit since there are times I want to use the stopper but its already dim and the 10 stop is just too powerful.
I'd have to remove it and compensate via aperture + the 2 stop of the cpl.
During sunrise up to sunset I got no problem with the 10 stop.

I don't have a vari-nd, seems its more useful if shooting people/portraits on very bright day - but thats just me.


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## AndreeOnline (Jan 7, 2015)

scotia said:


> I routinely use Lee hard grads in place of solid ND filters on a FF, on lenses with 77 mm adapters, without any problems (except when I also need that grad to do the job of a grad….). I would not use soft grads for this.



Wow, this is great news if it's correct, which I am assuming it is if you are using it!

Since replacing the 16-35 2.8 II with the new f4 IS equivalent I am all 77mm. Then I'd buy the 0.9 hard grad and use that both as a grad and as a 3 stop ND.


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## sulla (Jan 7, 2015)

I use screw-in 64x and 1000x ND filters from B&W and hoya. But I use them very seldomly. I find lower power than 64x rather useless, I can't really imagine when to use a 2x or 4x ND...

I can confirm that focussing through the 1000x is possible in daylight on the 5D3 under most conditions. Yet,I do not find it difficult to focus and then screw on the ND filter, as I don't screw it on firmly, only ever so slightly that it holds itself. I just watch out not to zoom (press on the front lens) or to touch the focus ring during this. Quite easy on the 70-200 fixed length lens, not so easy on the 24-70 extending zoom lens.

The colour cast caused by the 1000x ND filter is quite strong, but can be corrected using a picture of a white card or grey card really easily.

If you want to know what you need, then you must make up your mind on what you want to photograph:

general landscape and portrait: 64x is quite a good starting point, I believe, expecially when doing landscapes, because you can always close the aperture a few stops to help the ND, eg. for waterfalls, i find it to be generally enough (personally, I prefer the vivid look of shutter speeds of 1/2 second to the ultra-smooth look of 10s exposure for this, but your taste may differ. If you like thos silky smooth waterscapes, then a 1000x would be the better choice). If you do portraits and want to go to open apertures in bright daylight to blur the background, then there is always 1/8000 to help the ND, so a 64x is fine for this as well. Only for really really long exposures (>1s) in bright daylight a stronger filter is needed. Also keep in mind that ISO 50 helps another stop, and a polarizer another.

special effect landscape / architecture: When shooting e.g. a fountain in bright daylight when you simulataneously want to blur the background, so shooting wide open and with a very long exposure, that necessitates a stronger ND. If you want to do this, then choose a 64x plus a 1000x to give you 16 stops. I have never felt the need to stack the 1000x and the 64x to give a 16-stops filter, however. 

I hope to have helped,
Sulla


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## sulla (Jan 7, 2015)

Ah, I forgot: For landscape with a level horizon the graduated NDs would be better to darken the sky. Then screw-ons are just rubbish, you need the square Lee-filters. I don't have these, however, because I live in the mountains and there never is a level horizon. I do HDRs in this case.


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## scotia (Jan 7, 2015)

AndreeOnline said:


> scotia said:
> 
> 
> > I routinely use Lee hard grads in place of solid ND filters on a FF, on lenses with 77 mm adapters, without any problems (except when I also need that grad to do the job of a grad….). I would not use soft grads for this.
> ...



The image below was taken with the 0.6 ND hard grad used as a solid ND to give some movement in the water (shutter speed is 1/10s. This was the one moment of brightness; for most of the time I was the light was not good and I was getting about 1/4s with the 0.6 filter). The image is uncropped.


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## Famateur (Jan 7, 2015)

cellomaster27 said:


> This is the perfect discussion for me. I have the 10-22mm and I was going to buy a tiffen 77mm variable ND filter. But if I can't use it at <24mm (I'm assuming FF values) then what's the point. I was planning on using it for blurring clouds and waves... It seems like the best value for money?


I think the discussion about less than 24MM was for a circular polarizing filter, not a neutral density filter (unless you're talking about the comments regarding maltese cross artifacts that can occur on wide angle lenses with variable ND filters; from this thread, it sounds like some have been successful in using such a setup without artifacts). I think the confusion came because a CPL reduces exposure by a couple of stops, so you can use it in place of a 2-stop ND filter. 



dash2k8 said:


> > I bought a cpl and use it for his purpose, one filter less to carry around.
> 
> 
> In case the OP doesn't know, *CPL's start producing strange color gradation when used on ultrawides* like the 10-22mm. Not sure what the "minimum safe lens length" is. 24mm?


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2015)

Famateur said:


> I think the discussion about less than 24MM was for a circular polarizing filter, not a neutral density filter (unless you're talking about the comments regarding maltese cross artifacts that can occur on wide angle lenses with variable ND filters...



A variable ND filter is a pair of stacked polarizers (one circular, one linear), and the 'Maltese cross' has the same cause as the uneven polarization of skies with UWA lenses, except you don't need a sky to see it.


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## mackguyver (Jan 7, 2015)

Also, the uneven polarizing effect on wide angle lenses is a personal choice and can be minimized with careful adjustments. As for the focal length under which it occurs, the only thing I've ever seen, officially, is 28mm (35mm format) from B+W's filter catalog - page 14.


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## Famateur (Jan 7, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > I think the discussion about less than 24MM was for a circular polarizing filter, not a neutral density filter (unless you're talking about the comments regarding maltese cross artifacts that can occur on wide angle lenses with variable ND filters...
> ...


Thanks for the info...didn't know that. So the potential issues may be shared between CPL and VND, but not with a standard (non-variable) ND, yes?


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## mackguyver (Jan 7, 2015)

Famateur said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Famateur said:
> ...


Correct. Standard NDs have no such issues. The only potential issues are vignetting and flare (like any filter) and difficulty focusing (leave them off until you've focused). Oh and forgetting to take them off - my favorite issue. I was looking through my viewfinder for a cityscape shot the other night and it looked really dark. Plus, my shutter speed was a flashing 30s! A quick look at the BLACK filter on the front of my lens made me realize my mistake! I do this with polarizers, too, not to mention trying to shoot wildlife at f/16 sometimes, and the list goes on...


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## dash2k8 (Jan 7, 2015)

I learned not to use a CPL on a wide lens the hard way when I went on an overseas trip and only brought that and not grad-ND.


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## Famateur (Jan 7, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



LOL...I've done that a few times with sunglasses on, looking at the live view exposure and wondering why it was so dark. 

Speaking of polarizers, one day I thought the screen on my G12 was going out because it would turn off (go black) when I rotated it to view portrait shots (it has an accelerometer to auto-rotate the image). Every time I'd rotate, it would go dark. It took a minute to realize that it was the polarization of my sunglasses that was making it "go dark". LOL...


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## NancyP (Jan 7, 2015)

Live view users: wear a broad brimmed hat - helps immensely in reducing glare - and prevents sun-exposure skin cancers.


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## drob (Jan 8, 2015)

On a limited budget. I have the big stopper, foundation system, and a 3 stop nd soft grad filter (also a screw on 3 stop nd and circ polarizer)...but was wondering if I need to get a 3 stop nd hard grad?? Can the soft grad do flat horizons ok. I have watched the majority of Lee nd grad videos as well as their online Inspiration magazine and still am undecided about my next step. I have money for 1 more filter.


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## sagittariansrock (Jan 8, 2015)

drob said:


> On a limited budget. I have the big stopper, foundation system, and a 3 stop nd soft grad filter (also a screw on 3 stop nd and circ polarizer)...but was wondering if I need to get a 3 stop nd hard grad?? Can the soft grad do flat horizons ok. I have watched the majority of Lee nd grad videos as well as their online Inspiration magazine and still am undecided about my next step. I have money for 1 more filter.



I have a hard 3 stop and a soft 2 stop. The ideal condition is the opposite, but what I have works for me.
In your case, I'd suggest going for a 2 stop hard grad. That will be perfect. And you can always mix and match.


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## sagittariansrock (Jan 8, 2015)

NancyP said:


> Live view users: wear a broad brimmed hat - helps immensely in reducing glare - and prevents sun-exposure skin cancers.



Dunno why, as soon as I wear a hat I have this itch to shoot in portrait mode and the hat brim interfere


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## sagittariansrock (Jan 8, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



I make this mistake quite often with my personal polarizers/ND filters- aka my sunglasses. I'd walk into a shop and wonder why they don't they have all the lights on...


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## mrzero (Jan 8, 2015)

sagittariansrock said:


> NancyP said:
> 
> 
> > Live view users: wear a broad brimmed hat - helps immensely in reducing glare - and prevents sun-exposure skin cancers.
> ...



NancyP is talking about a floppy soft-brimmed hat, not a baseball cap. I wore one when we went to Madagascar, never a problem switching to vertical orientation.


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## cellomaster27 (Jan 11, 2015)

I've been trying to avoid the square nds.. quite expensive and bulky with the holders. Thanks everyone!


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## lintoni (Jan 11, 2015)

cellomaster27 said:


> I've been trying to avoid the square nds.. quite expensive and bulky with the holders. Thanks everyone!


They're expensive once, if you buy them big enough. Once bought though, you only need to buy relatively inexpensive adapter rings if you buy a new lens that has a different filter size to the ones you already have.


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## dlee13 (Jan 18, 2015)

It's great to read what everyone uses!

I currently have a b+w 10 stop ND but I'm considering getting some square Lee or Cokin filters. The b+w is great, it can just be annoying to take off them put back on just to use AF. I also like the idea of being able to stack filters, that way I could use a 2 stop grad and a 2 stop solid.

I know everyone highly regards Lee filters, but what about Cokin?


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 18, 2015)

dlee13 said:


> I know everyone highly regards Lee filters, but what about Cokin?



Cokin filters often have an undesirable color cast. But...their Z-Pro holder is a good alternative to the Lee holder.


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## dlee13 (Jan 18, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> dlee13 said:
> 
> 
> > I know everyone highly regards Lee filters, but what about Cokin?
> ...



Is it very noticeable? I've seen some images with the slight magenta color cast and didn't seem that bad to me, plus it's easily fixed in post.


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## jeffa4444 (Jan 22, 2015)

Lee Filters do a starter foundation kit that contains the 100mm holder, hard edge .6 / 2 stop ND grad, ProGlass .6 / 2 stop ND and a cleaning cloth. To this you need to add any adaptor rings. 

I take a lot of landscape photographs and the H/E ND.6 grad is used way more than any other filter. For me my basic kit would be the holder, rings for the lenses (mainly 77mm), H/E .6ND, H/E.3ND (the two together give you a .9), a circular polarizer and the .6 ProGlass ND. 

In the fall a .6 81EF lifts greens & browns and for water both the Big & Little stopper for creamy long exposures (play with the WB) When I shoot landscapes I set the camera to daylight not AWB. Most importantly though choose a good tripod & head and get a cable release.


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## dlee13 (Jan 22, 2015)

jeffa4444 said:


> Lee Filters do a starter foundation kit that contains the 100mm holder, hard edge .6 / 2 stop ND grad, ProGlass .6 / 2 stop ND and a cleaning cloth. To this you need to add any adaptor rings.
> 
> I take a lot of landscape photographs and the H/E ND.6 grad is used way more than any other filter. For me my basic kit would be the holder, rings for the lenses (mainly 77mm), H/E .6ND, H/E.3ND (the two together give you a .9), a circular polarizer and the .6 ProGlass ND.
> 
> In the fall a .6 81EF lifts greens & browns and for water both the Big & Little stopper for creamy long exposures (play with the WB) When I shoot landscapes I set the camera to daylight not AWB. Most importantly though choose a good tripod & head and get a cable release.



Do you own any soft gnd's? Also do you shoot seascapes? 

I'm now planning on getting a Lee kit and trying to decide between a soft .6 or .9 since I mostly do cityscapes and rarely do seascapes. 

Also do you have the Lee adapter rings? I've seen some people recommend adapter rings from "The Filter Dude" on eBay.


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