# There are still surprises in store for the Canon EOS R5 announcement [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 30, 2020)

> I have been told that there is one “major new feature coming in the EOS R5 for photographers”, unfortunately, I’ve spent the last couple of days trying to find out what that means with little success.
> We have seen some bold marketing claims in the past, so I don’t want to get too exciting, but Canon has definitely kept the stills photography crowd wondering what’s coming in the EOS R5.
> I wish I had more, but July 9, 2020, isn’t too far off, so we’ll know by then as the worst-case scenario.



Continue reading...


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## martin_p_a (Jun 30, 2020)

The speculation will keep us busy until the 9th


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## Max TT (Jun 30, 2020)

As if I wasn't excited enough!


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## TheSalvatore (Jun 30, 2020)

Hmm... Could it be having Pixel Shift function same as the Sony?


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## magarity (Jun 30, 2020)

“major new feature coming in the EOS R5 for photographers” 

Free for the first 100 callers!


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## DBounce (Jun 30, 2020)

AI trickery perhaps? Whatever it brings, I have to say, so far... if the hype lives up to expectations, the Eos R5 will be the most interesting mirrorless camera to date.


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## Deleted member 68328 (Jun 30, 2020)

Not a feature, but would absolutely love seeing a development announcement for a 5D Mark V with the promise to throw everything they can at it as a statement for their last DSLR.


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## Nilo (Jun 30, 2020)

I'm scared


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## R1-7D (Jun 30, 2020)

I pee'd a little.


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## SV (Jun 30, 2020)

I like surprises


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## Gazwas (Jun 30, 2020)

Multi-shot mode that is actually useful in that it works with flash (unlike every other mirrorless camera) making high resolution stills a very useful studio features rather than a headline grabbing/clickbait spec.


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## gzroxas (Jun 30, 2020)

No idea about what this could be! Maybe some claims on higher DR that matched some of the other modern sensors? Although that would apply to video as well


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## Chaitanya (Jun 30, 2020)

Probably something with AF.


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## Richard Anthony (Jun 30, 2020)

I was wondering what they were holding back , there has been a lot about the video side and not much on the photography side , now we know they have been holding back some info , makes the 9th a bit more to look forward to .


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## Fran Decatta (Jun 30, 2020)

TheSalvatore said:


> Hmm... Could it be having Pixel Shift function same as the Sony?



I thought exactly the same ! let's hope that is something more than this, but is already fine


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## xps (Jun 30, 2020)

Price under 3500$?
Eye-AF like my old Eos 3?
Not face, but eye-AF?
Continuous burst rate?
something like HDR-mode for low noise?
wireless live usage as an webcam?


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## peakartimages (Jun 30, 2020)

I hope it is a new Dual Gain Output Sensor


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## gbc (Jun 30, 2020)

I hope the surprise feature is a sub-$3000 price tag...


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## xps (Jun 30, 2020)

or better video than coming Sony A7SIII with 8k and more MP?


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## xps (Jun 30, 2020)

xps said:


> or better video than coming Sony A7SIII with 8k and more MP?


ok, rubbish. sony has always superior Image quality


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## Th0msky (Jun 30, 2020)

Take my money already!!


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## TAF (Jun 30, 2020)

Perhaps they've found a way to double the pixel density for stills...so you get a 180MP for your stills and 45MP for your video.

That would be very interesting indeed...


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## Th0msky (Jun 30, 2020)

xps said:


> or better video than coming Sony A7SIII with 8k and more MP?


why would u need MPX for video..?


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## mariosk1gr (Jun 30, 2020)

AI - Computational photography? nah... It's too early for FF cameras. They need a ton of processing power! If it's DGO from the other hand, that will make every man on this planet very happy also!


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## LSXPhotog (Jun 30, 2020)

I'm hopeful that the time spent developing its sensor stabilization was used to create something very impressive and reliable. I also hope that Canon has witnessed some of the possibilities with this tech like high resolution and night sky modes from other brands and taken things a step further.


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## Russ6357 (Jun 30, 2020)

APSC mode?


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## David Hull (Jun 30, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


You need a count down clock on the front page -- but then you would need to know the announcement time. Oh well.


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## jolyonralph (Jun 30, 2020)

please please please let it be a user-removable/replaceable IR cut filter


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## xps (Jun 30, 2020)

Th0msky said:


> why would u need MPX for video..?


sorry, I meant: better video and more MP for stills than the Sony


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## snappy604 (Jun 30, 2020)

hoping for Pixel Shift or Software Neutral Density.. they used to do it for the G series of cameras.


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## Aregal (Jun 30, 2020)

What if the IBIS assembly moves back enabling us to natively use EF lenses on the R5.


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## dichterDichter (Jun 30, 2020)

i really hope not to read "a.i." in every second sentence which is just a bullshit-bingo trend right now. maybe they could bring back eye-controlled focuspoint ..


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 30, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Multi-shot mode that is actually useful in that it works with flash (unlike every other mirrorless camera) making high resolution stills a very useful studio features rather than a headline grabbing/clickbait spec.



Multi-shot without flash is not a gimmick and usable in many situations. I would say most, like landscapes. With flash i think its harder to implement because of flash recycling times between each shot.


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## TheSalvatore (Jun 30, 2020)

Fran Decatta said:


> I thought exactly the same ! let's hope that is something more than this, but is already fine


Hopefully it'll be something more than this!


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 30, 2020)

Aregal said:


> What if the IBIS assembly moves back enabling us to natively use EF lenses on the R5.



Not sure if the body is deep enough for that. Would be easier the other way around - move the sensor forward in EF camera. But then you would lose OVF.


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## Ralph Conway (Jun 30, 2020)

I guess it will be usable ISO 51.200


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## JustUs7 (Jun 30, 2020)

In camera focus stacking, like the RP, only it combines the final image in camera as well.


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## Paul Nordin (Jun 30, 2020)

Two things that have not been discussed yet: Resolution & DR.


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## LensFungus (Jun 30, 2020)

You get a free money printer by Canon so you can afford the RF L glass. \o/


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## MaxDiesel (Jun 30, 2020)

Even though I know it’s next to impossible to create without reducing image quality and it may be large due to all glass in it.
I’d LOVE to see an RF-EF adapter.
Since they noted, no more EF Lenses this would be a good trade off.


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## Baron_Karza (Jun 30, 2020)

Voice recognition/command for the Triangle settings: Aperture, Shutter Speed, ISO...plus other voice commands, such as: manual to auto focus and vice versa. And if your at a place where you need to be quiet, like a wedding or funeral or a loud place like a concert or sports event, then there's an option to purchase Blue Tooth Mind-Control implant. The implant would be the size of a pinhead. My sources say that the patent was approved by another undisclosed company that Canon owns.


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## LensFungus (Jun 30, 2020)

Instead of your normal 5-axis IBIS, Canon's IBIS will also be able to move back in time so the crappy photos you just took no longer exist.


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## BeenThere (Jun 30, 2020)

Thought control of all functions?


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## Shivu (Jun 30, 2020)

Global Shutter like in newly developed SPAD sensor


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## another_mikey (Jun 30, 2020)

User ability to enable/disable antialiasing filter...

ML


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## slclick (Jun 30, 2020)

AA Filter settings


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## Aregal (Jun 30, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Not sure if the body is deep enough for that. Would be easier the other way around - move the sensor forward in EF camera. But then you would lose OVF.


I was thinking of a mechanism to move the sensor back to achieve 44mm flange distance and just use EVF. I think Canon has already filed patents for this in the past.


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## AlanF (Jun 30, 2020)

It has a DSLR mode.


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## lawny13 (Jun 30, 2020)

Hmmmm... rather than DPAF, it will have QDAF?? That would be awesome. 


Or some trickier that allows one set of pixels to capture one exposure while the other half another, and blended together for higher DR? 


Who knows, when they say NEW feature, do they mean new to canon, or new to all?


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## Baron_Karza (Jun 30, 2020)

Built-In Fold-Out gimbal. 
In case you're at a safari taking pictures of lions and tigers and you need to run away from their danger while trying to do a selfie....oh, and built in hand gun....or a laser gun (no, that must be Sony new "technology and innovations" mentioned in yesterdays DPR article).


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## Jordan23 (Jun 30, 2020)

Maybe a 16 bit dual iso RAW.


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## stefang (Jun 30, 2020)

A dedicated Direct Print button.


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## Tony Bennett (Jun 30, 2020)

Sony users are chomping at the bit for this camera to be released so they can denigrate the R5. They'll also harp on about the "A7SIII" and how great it will be. I'm seeing it on other sites. So glad I ditched Sony recently.

Hell, I just looked above my post and the Sony turds are already here.


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## usern4cr (Jun 30, 2020)

Well, the funniest post so far was "I peed a little!" 

But seriously, my guesses would be:
* dual gain sensor for higher single shot dynamic range
* software neutral density feature / LiveND / image stacking features
* night sky star focusing & tracking
* pixel shift 4x MP photo
* global shutter
* An unusually high MDot back LCD
* more MP than expected (50MP or more?)
* aperture bracketing (what I crave, but not headline shattering enough?)
* lossless raw compression
* an embedded RF flash controller

I guess we'll find out soon - hopefully it's good enough to "pee a little!"


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## tvb (Jun 30, 2020)

To think what can be possible+interesting with the current tech...

IBIS:
- pixel-shift
Sensor electronics (must be really specific to R5 - as R6 has "existing" sensor from 1D):
- Global shutter/other electronic shutter manipulations
- Faster readout, making it possible to involve some smartphone-style techniques (below)
Processing:
- image-stacking (imagine giving FF sensor to some state of the art algorithms from smartphone cameras - some crazy DR/ISO performance out there)
- depth maps from dual pixel (smartphones already do this) or some related perks
Peripherals, flash control, etc
- tons of possibilities, most of them are boring. But you never guess...

PS: I'll bet for pixel-shift, because:
- basically all the competition is doing it already =)
- doesn't seem difficult to implement.
- will justify for "R5-only feature" - those who want to squeze more MP from stills won't go for R6 anyway.


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## Skux (Jun 30, 2020)

Yeah, like the price tag


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## risto0 (Jun 30, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Well, the funniest post so far was "I peed a little!"
> 
> But seriously, my guesses would be:
> * dual gain sensor for higher single shot dynamic range
> ...



Global shutter would be great! But I am quite sure it is not that. Rumor says it is for Photographers. Global shutter would be beneficial for both - photographers and videographers.


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## Viggo (Jun 30, 2020)

I wouldn’t hate it if Dual Pixel is for video and we’ll get the long rumored/patented QuadPixel AF for stills


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## amorse (Jun 30, 2020)

We have quite the laundry list of wishes in here! I just want a link to watch the event - I'll be content with that for now.


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## Bob Howland (Jun 30, 2020)

Russ6357 said:


> APSC mode?


Currently available in both the R and RP. The 5DS also includes APSH.


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## iheartcanon (Jun 30, 2020)

MaxDiesel said:


> Even though I know it’s next to impossible to create without reducing image quality and it may be large due to all glass in it.
> I’d LOVE to see an RF-EF adapter.
> Since they noted, no more EF Lenses this would be a good trade off.



"Since they noted, no more EF Lenses this would be a good trade off."

Did they actually say this somehwere? I have heard it a lot but not actually read anything official.


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## knight427 (Jun 30, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> * night sky star focusing & tracking



The star tracking feature would make me seriously consider skipping the R6 and saving up even longer to get the R5.


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## highdesertmesa (Jun 30, 2020)

I’ve been saying the R5 megapixel spec was withheld intentionally. Either they are going with 80+mp native sensor and 8K is downsampled (but this really wouldn’t be called a “new feature”), or they have a 39-45mp sensor than can do handheld 8-10 image pixel shift that’s combined into a single new format, called something like Pro-RAW. It would give you simultaneously a higher res image with increased DR. The new format would contain the original stacked RAWs that could allow us to pull out individual frames like you can with the current iPhone.

I think the dual-gain sensor and traditional high-res pixel shift is almost a given, and that plus some sort of AI-pixel shift new feature would be amazing.


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## esglord (Jun 30, 2020)

-ability to bundle with the 24-105 f/4-f/7.1 for only an additional $300! 
-there will be a limited additional solid platinum R-Bling version!
-patents recently purchased from Olympus have enabled a last minute sensor spec switch, transforming the R5 into the most advanced micro 4/3 camera ever!
-comes with a free early release Sony PS5!

okay, well probably not


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## arbitrage (Jun 30, 2020)

It better be a fast-readout sensor to give us blackout free 20FPS burst shooting without distortion. Otherwise I don't see any reason for including a 20FPS electronic shutter mode in the first place...what non-moving subject is anyone going to want to shoot at 20FPS??


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## herein2020 (Jun 30, 2020)

My wish list is very simple:

Electronic ND filter (for video)
Unlimited flash sync Speed
Guidelines in the viewfinder for Instagram aspect ratios (4:5)


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## snappy604 (Jun 30, 2020)

Bob Howland said:


> Currently available in both the R and RP. The 5DS also includes APSH.


that's awesome.. does it respond as quickly and give a bit of a magnifier? it's something that had me humming about going to full frame for when I focus on wildlife.


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## David Hull (Jun 30, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Not sure if the body is deep enough for that. Would be easier the other way around - move the sensor forward in EF camera. But then you would lose OVF.


The mount wouldn't twist on anyway.


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## Joules (Jun 30, 2020)

I know! It will be available in black, silver, and most importantly, Hello Kitty Pink!


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## BakaBokeh (Jun 30, 2020)

Speculation!

For photographers, I can't think of anything more than better Dynamic Range, less noisy ISO and the ability to buy a stills only version of the R5 at a discount.

For kicks
- ISO that goes to zero or even negative
- Plant, Tree, Flower, Fruit AF
- A rear facing 5 MP camera
- Alexa, Google Assistant integration
- Left Eye dominant/Left handed bodies or portrait mode oriented bodies
- Some kind of repellent for those crowded areas to clear out those annoying people in your shot. It could be an odor, or ear piercing frequency that will send them running
- Built in IVY CLIQ printer
- Built in air bags for when you accidentally knock your tripod over
- A.I. that will suggest hashtags for each shot 

Tongue in cheek obviously, but I think what would be useful technology or just cool things to have on Canon would be things like
- Variable Shutter. Depending on how hard you push the shutter button, you vary the FPS. As you increase pressure the FPS goes up.
- Eye Tracking Autofocus. Not Eye Detect AF. There is a technology that can track where you are looking at on a monitor. They have those youtube videos where they watch... ahem well endowed women as a challenge to avoid looking below the neck region. Failure is almost guaranteed. lol. Humor aside, it is pretty impressive how it can track what the eyes are focusing on, on the screen. If you could incorporate that in an EVF, you could essentially control the focus point by just looking at what you want to focus on.
- Film simulations ala Fuji
- Some kind of EVF Flash/Exposure simulation. Instead of just turning off exposure simulation to shoot flash photography, there's a mode that will incorporates the flash settings into the exposure simulation.
- Anti-theft: How about a kensington lock for the body? And a locking mechanism so the lens cannot be removed by anyone but the user?


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## WriteLight (Jun 30, 2020)

Joules said:


> I know! It will be available in black, silver, and most importantly, Hello Kitty Pink!


Like Henry Ford, they'll offer it to you in any color you want, as long as it's black


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## wockawocka (Jun 30, 2020)

FREE PRINTER FOR EVERY MODEL NOT BOUGHT VIA IMPORT!


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## navastronia (Jun 30, 2020)

Chaitanya said:


> Probably something with AF.


Best case scenario


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## Sharlin (Jun 30, 2020)

Aregal said:


> I was thinking of a mechanism to move the sensor back to achieve 44mm flange distance and just use EVF. I think Canon has already filed patents for this in the past.



And include some sort of space-time warp technology to make room for it? Perhaps utilizing what they call *L*-space?


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## Deleted member 381342 (Jun 30, 2020)

Releasing it with a RF 500mm f/5.6 DO .... nah that dream won't come true but still first past the post with that lens on mirrorless wins this wildlife photographers money. Don't care if the camera can do 50 fps, just get out some form of 500mm prime(Or 200-400 f/4 native). 

Back on topic: I am thinking that dual ISO stuff they shoved into the latest cinema camera. I can't think of anything else that would pull me into the R5.


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## Steve Balcombe (Jun 30, 2020)

Two things Canon has been conspicuously silent about in the pre-announcements are the sensor technology and the EVF. While the EVF has to be very good to live up to the general level of hype and anticipation, a "major new feature coming in the EOS R5 for photographers" doesn't make me think of the EVF. But it could be quad pixel AF, or dual gain output, or even both. Both of these exist, and both would be great to have.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Jun 30, 2020)

Steve Balcombe said:


> Two things Canon has been conspicuously silent about in the pre-announcements are the sensor technology and the EVF. While the EVF has to be very good to live up to the general level of hype and anticipation, a "major new feature coming in the EOS R5 for photographers" doesn't make me think of the EVF. But it could be quad pixel AF, or dual gain output, or even both. Both of these exist, and both would be great to have.



The EVF could be a big thing. I remember going over the packaging of the 1D bodies up to the 1DX line. A lot of the early 1D boxes mentioned startup time as a big feature until the cameras became instant on. I think EVF's measured in start up time and response time will become a bigger feature than how many dots it has. The EVF on my Nikon Z6 is no slouch but it is still a little behind and if Canon can get the EVF delay down and response up then that puts it right up there for sports and wildlife.


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## Aregal (Jun 30, 2020)

lawny13 said:


> Hmmmm... rather than DPAF, it will have QDAF?? That would be awesome.
> 
> 
> Or some trickier that allows one set of pixels to capture one exposure while the other half another, and blended together for higher DR?
> ...


It sounds like you’re referring to DualGainISO like what’s on the C300iii and entire ARRI Alexa/Amira line.


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## Canon-Chas (Jun 30, 2020)

If its as good as Sony A9 II then Canon will have a good camera. Anything less then Canon will have failed .


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## FrenchFry (Jun 30, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> Speculation!
> 
> For photographers, I can't think of anything more than better Dynamic Range, less noisy ISO and the ability to buy a stills only version of the R5 at a discount.
> 
> ...


I really hope you work for Canon and these "for kicks" ideas are in development! Negative ISO, flower AF, and air bags would be amazing!


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## martin_p_a (Jun 30, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Voice recognition/command for the Triangle settings: Aperture, Shutter Speed, ISO...plus other voice commands, such as: manual to auto focus and vice versa. And if your at a place where you need to be quiet, like a wedding or funeral or a loud place like a concert or sports event, then there's an option to purchase Blue Tooth Mind-Control implant. The implant would be the size of a pinhead. My sources say that the patent was approved by another undisclosed company that Canon owns.



The funeral photography business couldn’t handle being tended to in this way


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## Dragon (Jun 30, 2020)

How about eye AF from the EOS3 reincarnated? The technology ought to have advanced enough in 20 years to make that idea reliable. In any case, 9 days isn't a a long time to wait unless you have nothing to do but wait.


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## Whowe (Jun 30, 2020)

I'd like to see the idea of the camera writing to the CFexpress card during shooting to empty the buffer quickly and make second copy to SD card "offline." This would allow for huge buffers and buffers that clear quickly, unlike some other high frame rate camera that takes foreaver to clear its buffer, which will remain un-named for now...


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## Whowe (Jun 30, 2020)

martin_p_a said:


> The funeral photography business couldn’t handle being tended to in this way


Is funeral photography really a thing?

who knew...


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## Proscribo (Jun 30, 2020)

12 megapixel quad pixel sensor (essentially a quad bayer -like sensor), R6's 20MP doesn't sound so little anymore does it.


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## KeithBreazeal (Jun 30, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Well, the funniest post so far was "I peed a little!"
> 
> But seriously, my guesses would be:
> * dual gain sensor for higher single shot dynamic range
> ...


" night sky star focusing & tracking" was one of my wishes. Maybe IBIS could make the fine adjustment to lower star trails- lower ISO/longer exposures.
* I was thinking that IBIS coupled with AF tracking could produce a panning mode, thus keeping the subject motion from being blurred due to panning errors.


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## chrisgibbs (Jun 30, 2020)

I wonder if there's a prototype full-frame mirrorless out here with an electronic ND filter built-in? #willitbeasonyorcanon


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## JustUs7 (Jun 30, 2020)

snappy604 said:


> that's awesome.. does it respond as quickly and give a bit of a magnifier? it's something that had me humming about going to full frame for when I focus on wildlife.


 Not a magnifier per se. in crop mode, they work like a crop sensor camera. The EVF is filled out. Live view is filled out. Effectively, it looks like it’s zoomed in. But just like cropping an image, it doesn’t use the full sensor. For the RP, it uses 10.1 megapixels of the 26.2 available in full frame.


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## tpatana (Jun 30, 2020)

Eye-controller AF-point like they had long time ago, was it EOS-3?


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## JustUs7 (Jun 30, 2020)

A second lens in the back for selfies!!! The EOS R5-K (for Kardashian)!


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## AccipiterQ (Jun 30, 2020)

*TRIPLE. CARD. SLOTS. *


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## AccipiterQ (Jun 30, 2020)

Actually, I wonder if it'll be 'bird-eye' focus or something..


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## navastronia (Jun 30, 2020)

I hope they announce an incredible EVF for the R5.


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## AccipiterQ (Jun 30, 2020)

Bob Howland said:


> Currently available in both the R and RP. The 5DS also includes APSH.




Dumb question: IF the R5 had this, would the pixel density match the 7Dii? Let's say the R5 ends up at 42MP


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## Deleted member 381342 (Jun 30, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> Actually, I wonder if it'll be 'bird-eye' focus or something..


Already announced as far as I recall


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## juststeve (Jun 30, 2020)

I am hoping for dual gain dual pixels. Since Canon has already done it on a video camera, there is cause for hope.

And I really like to see autofocus for horizontal lines. Can't help but wonder if vertical strips of paired dual pixels scattered about the sensor could give focus on horizontal lines. I know about the patents for quad pixel and imagine it is coming some day, but it seems just now that Canon is catching up to handling the flood of data coming off the dual pixels. Making the jump to quad pixels and making all the other improvements Canon. is making might be a bit to much to ask now. Maybe in a couple of years.


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## JustUs7 (Jun 30, 2020)

Worm-Cam. 

Stephen Baxter and Arthur C. Clark ‘The Light of Other Days’. The R5 creates a wormhole looking way out into space, then looks back on the earth as it appeared in the past. Take new and improved pictures of yourself as a child at Disneyland to add to the 3x5 Kodak 110’s.


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## AEWest (Jun 30, 2020)

Steve Balcombe said:


> Two things Canon has been conspicuously silent about in the pre-announcements are the sensor technology and the EVF. While the EVF has to be very good to live up to the general level of hype and anticipation, a "major new feature coming in the EOS R5 for photographers" doesn't make me think of the EVF. But it could be quad pixel AF, or dual gain output, or even both. Both of these exist, and both would be great to have.


The R5 announcement by Canon Australia a few weeks ago started by saying all new sensor rather than highlighting 8K video. I believe there is a lot more new to the sensor than MP count. I do expect a better dynamic range, perhaps stacked sensor.


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## Baron_Karza (Jun 30, 2020)

martin_p_a said:


> The funeral photography business couldn’t handle being tended to in this way



Which way, Mind-Control? I think I missed the joke, lol! 



Whowe said:


> Is funeral photography really a thing?
> 
> who knew...



I don't know if it is, but when thinking of an example, I remembered going to a Philipino funeral here in the USA, and asked my gf (of the same nationality) "why is he video taping a funeral?". Using a monopod, he recorded the entire funeral. Even she thought it was weird.


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## Whowe (Jun 30, 2020)

navastronia said:


> I hope they announce an incredible EVF for the R5.




From the R6 specs leaked: " *Identical 5 million dot EVF as the EOS R5* "

that's pretty top of the line for EVF...


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## emc (Jun 30, 2020)

AF driven by the photographer's eye
ISO sensitivity variable depending on the light on an image area or automatic HDR mask depending on the light on the image areas.


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## StoicalEtcher (Jun 30, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> *TRIPLE. CARD. SLOTS. *


It had better have at least that - otherwise I simply will not be able to use it as a professional, and Canon will be *******!


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## Whowe (Jun 30, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> Dumb question: IF the R5 had this, would the pixel density match the 7Dii? Let's say the R5 ends up at 42MP


No, you would be about 16.4 MP. At 45 MP, crop would be about 17.5 MP.


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## JustUs7 (Jun 30, 2020)

Four card slot RAID storage.


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## mpb001 (Jun 30, 2020)

It would be really nice to have a landscape panorama mode, instead of stitching the frames in post.


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## knight427 (Jun 30, 2020)

dual DVD-RW for backup

acoustic levitation (no more tripods needed)

battery grip that actually contains collapsible selfie stick instead of additional batteries

AI background blur hard coded to kick in at f/11, no override possible

exploiting both acoustic levitation and touch screen tech, the R5 will be fully controllable by nose touch

Challenge Mode unlocks 25 fps but requires manual shutter button clicks for each frame, IBIS and AF are disabled in this mode

Finally, Canon eliminates the need for intervalometers by extending exposure times to 32 seconds and allowing programmed series of pictures up to 4 frames long using command line interface for programming (alpha numeric keyboard input via joystick)


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## chasingrealness (Jun 30, 2020)

TheSalvatore said:


> Hmm... Could it be having Pixel Shift function same as the Sony?


That’s exactly where my mind went. If so I just became even more interested.


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## martin_p_a (Jun 30, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Which way, Mind-Control? I think I missed the joke, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if it is, but when thinking of an example, I remembered going to a Philipino funeral here in the USA, and asked my gf (of the same nationality) "why is he video taping a funeral?". Using a monopod, he recorded the entire funeral. Even she thought it was weird.



The « joke » was that I don’t think the funeral photography business really exists, so having a camera company implement features with them in mind would be too much to handle for funeral photographers...


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## JustUs7 (Jun 30, 2020)

Siri. 

Hey Siri, take a picture!


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## mangobutter (Jun 30, 2020)

Yep I saw one other person mention it but I'm guessing pixel shift.


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## Kit. (Jun 30, 2020)

Built-in RT flash transmitter?
Power-on via BLE?
AI-activated shutter?
Pre-shot buffer?
Faster or higher-DR electronic shutter in crop mode?


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jun 30, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> Dumb question: IF the R5 had this, would the pixel density match the 7Dii? Let's say the R5 ends up at 42MP



To match the 7D's resolution with 1.6 crop, you need around 50MP. At 42MP you get around 16.5MP.
Considering the likely better and newer sensor in the R5 i say it will match the 7D in image quality.


----------



## emc (Jun 30, 2020)

customer settings with comments
customer settings with automatic scene recognition


----------



## peters (Jun 30, 2020)

knight427 said:


> AI background blur hard coded to kick in at f/11, no override possible


:-D :-D :-D Great post =) 

Though this point is not completely impossible. Maybe they can indeed collect some kind of depth information with the dual pixel AF and the IBIS combined? 
Would be a rather funny/amateur/smartphone thing, but maybe there is some usefull stuff in this area = )


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jun 30, 2020)

knight427 said:


> The star tracking feature would make me seriously consider skipping the R6 and saving up even longer to get the R5.



I can't see the star tracking to be that good at all. It could help of course, but by how much? Olympus makes one, right? Or at least was about to when they announced it a few months ago. Are they saying it would be hand held or tripod a must?

Astronomers use star trackers (as you might already know, since you're interested in the camera feature) that cost around $350, that mount onto tripods. Those are ones where you might be able to use up to a 200 mm lens. Usually with those trackers you'll be using with a lens around 10-80mm. Anything longer than about 200 and you'll need a telescope mount/tracker (my Sky-Watcher HEQ5 goes for around $1050 and is considered an entry level model). With the longer FL, you need to get a guide scope camera and scope (at least a $250 combo) to help track it even more. Often they are used with a laptop to control and always require some sort of polar alignment (or plate solving). Even with all that, and my entry level mount, people see all types of flaws compared to more expense equipment.

Plus, you need to track the objects for quite some time. Often hours, in order to take multiple exposures (sometime hundred or more) of precisely tracked photos to be stacked in software.

I think for casual snapshots of non-deep sky object , but rather night sky/skyline, it would look better than a regular camera and ok for some people. Canon Ra much better for the serious astrophotographer. I would much rather purchase the R6 with a $350 star tracker, than the R5 with the tracker feature built in. It would cost way less and work much better for any astro type photography. I think people are saying the R6 will be better for low light, making it better for night sky. But if there is more than just the added star tracker feature you'd want that doesn't come with the R6, then the R5 may still be your best bet.


----------



## jam05 (Jun 30, 2020)

Something simple, such as the 1dx2 joystick. I want that. It simple.


----------



## jam05 (Jun 30, 2020)

Ok. A boost mode. Maybe in silent shutter. 30fps or something like that.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jun 30, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Not sure if the body is deep enough for that. Would be easier the other way around - move the sensor forward in EF camera. But then you would lose OVF.


I doubt it. That would negate the need to buy RF lenses as quickly when changing systems


----------



## mbike999 (Jun 30, 2020)

I will just be happy if they address some of the main issues I had with the R, including lack of joystick, better burst rate, improved EVF performance, general performance with action type shooting - some of those improvements seem like a given at this point. Anything else is basically icing on the cake. Unless we are missing something crucial, it should be a stellar all-rounder camera.


----------



## chasingrealness (Jun 30, 2020)

snappy604 said:


> hoping for Pixel Shift or Software Neutral Density.. they used to do it for the G series of cameras.


Oooo software ND filter would be amazing.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jun 30, 2020)

For those suggesting eye AF(As in the Eos3 film bodies) then I would say don't get your hopes up. Implementing a system that see's where your eye is looking is easy enough with 5 AF points widely spaced but I don't think it would really work with 500


----------



## YuengLinger (Jun 30, 2020)

Low light AF assist that actually assists.


----------



## Kit. (Jun 30, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> For those suggesting eye AF(As in the Eos3 film bodies) then I would say don't get your hopes up. Implementing a system that see's where your eye is looking is easy enough with 5 AF points widely spaced but I don't think it would really work with 500


It can be content aware (like, "eye select eye focus").


----------



## brad-man (Jun 30, 2020)

The surprise for the Canon EOS R5 announcement is that it's been postponed until next April...


----------



## usern4cr (Jun 30, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Well, the funniest post so far was "I peed a little!"
> 
> But seriously, my guesses would be:
> * dual gain sensor for higher single shot dynamic range
> ...


All yoooze guys came out with some great ideas , so I'd like to add a couple new lines to my previous suggestions:

* EVF that can track the user eye pupil movement to determine focus point at a moving "*+*" target on the EVF screen. (oooh, soooo awesome!)
* *"Dual aperture bracket"*: One exposure button press gives you: One photo at wide open aperture immediately followed by a second photo at your chosen aperture, then those are compared to determine depth map & use depth map to blend both images into 1 raw image to get max background blur (from 1st) with bigger sharp depth of field at subject focus (from 2nd). Add option to just store 2 photos for merging in post.
* Combine night star focus/tracking (with IBIS rotation) with multi offset image stacking for verrrrry long night star tracking! - "*Weee* don't need no stinkin' *tracker!"*
* A 3rd R release camera: (drum roll please!) : the *R5A (or R6A*) with a bayer array where the filters are for O3, HAlpha, S2, HAlpha for astro photos in color in a single shot. (combined with multi offset image star tracking above). That'd be one heck of a sensor filter there, hey Vern? 

I think that'd be awesome, but as always, we'll see!


----------



## highdesertmesa (Jun 30, 2020)

Aregal said:


> It sounds like you’re referring to DualGainISO like what’s on the C300iii and entire ARRI Alexa/Amira line.



Exactly.

And for everyone here who doesn’t know about dual gain output sensors:









Could the Canon EOS R5 Receive a Dual Gain Output Sensor?


Let's explain Canon's new Dual Gain Output sensor.




nofilmschool.com


----------



## highdesertmesa (Jun 30, 2020)

Biggest “feature” for stills photographers (for me anyway) would be a surprise release of the highest-res Rs/R3 alongside the R5/6. Even the development announcement of it during the webcast would be great.


----------



## Whowe (Jun 30, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> * EVF that can track the user eye pupil to determine focus point. (oooh, soooo awesome!)



If the focus follows my eye, I am afraid that I would only get photos with boobs in focus.....


----------



## Otara (Jul 1, 2020)

I'm having trouble thinking of any realistic major feature that can really compare with whats already on offer.

AA filter optional
Preburst like Olympus
Remote AF shooting option. As in takes shot when eye in focus for wildlife.
8 pixel shift for 360MP shots.
Built-in snapchat filters
App store.


----------



## smr (Jul 1, 2020)

A couple more ideas....

A pop out umbrella for when shooting Landscapes in the rain. It would pop out similar to how the flash pops up on DSLRs that have it.

A portable tea making machine (I'm English) which fixes to a specially designed L bracket


----------



## sanj (Jul 1, 2020)

Comes with automatic suggestions for 'clickbait' rumors.


----------



## Pixel (Jul 1, 2020)

My guess is it WILL indeed wipe your butt.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 1, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> In camera focus stacking, like the RP, only it combines the final image in camera as well.


Lets hope it does not do that. None of the combine software does a excellent job without user tweaking. It might be fine for a smart phone, but not a pro level camera.


----------



## tpatana (Jul 1, 2020)

Reading through the comments, I think the dual-gain ISO using dual-pixel would give couple stops of dynamic range. That'd be my bet.


----------



## DBounce (Jul 1, 2020)

peakartimages said:


> I hope it is a new Dual Gain Output Sensor


I would love to see this added. We can only hope.


----------



## jdavidse (Jul 1, 2020)

SPOT METERING LINKED TO AF POINT

...which would mean, they did indeed throw everything they had into this one


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 1, 2020)

After accidentally moving the AF point on the tough screen of my R about 50 times today, I'd like to see a setting to use a double tap to select a AF point on the touch screen.


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 1, 2020)

Composition AI and slimming filter.


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 1, 2020)

Dragon said:


> How about eye AF from the EOS3 reincarnated? The technology ought to have advanced enough in 20 years to make that idea reliable. In any case, 9 days isn't a a long time to wait unless you have nothing to do but wait.


One would think so, but just like Smell-O-Vision, nobody’s been working on it.


----------



## Otara (Jul 1, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> After accidentally moving the AF point on the tough screen of my R about 50 times today, I'd like to see a setting to use a double tap to select a AF point on the touch screen.



Oh do I hear you on that one.


----------



## Czardoom (Jul 1, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Lets hope it does not do that. None of the combine software does a excellent job without user tweaking. It might be fine for a smart phone, but not a pro level camera.


My Olympus E-M1 mark II does in-camera focus stacking with excellent results. It's limited to 9 shots, but for my purposes this has never been an issue, but I realize it might be for some shooting situations. I can even shoot hand held. Now, maybe being a smaller sensor helps in that regard - but it's certainly possible.


----------



## Czardoom (Jul 1, 2020)

iheartcanon said:


> "Since they noted, no more EF Lenses this would be a good trade off."
> 
> Did they actually say this somehwere? I have heard it a lot but not actually read anything official.


I can't say I remember exactly, but I am pretty sure they never said there would be no more new EF lenses. What I recall is that they said that they would be concentrating on RF lenses and there would be no new EF lenses for the foreseeable future. I think they may have actually said "next year". Forum users immediately took this as "never" and also concluded that mirrorless was now replacing DSLR's although Canon specifically said that the new R series cameras would complement DSLRs. I doubt Canon will throw away the majority of it's sales, which is still DSLRs.


----------



## WriteLight (Jul 1, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> I can't say I remember exactly, but I am pretty sure they never said there would be no more new EF lenses. What I recall is that they said that they would be concentrating on RF lenses and there would be no new EF lenses for the foreseeable future. I think they may have actually said "next year". Forum users immediately took this as "never" and also concluded that mirrorless was now replacing DSLR's although Canon specifically said that the new R series cameras would complement DSLRs. I doubt Canon will throw away the majority of it's sales, which is still DSLRs.


Yeah...done unless photographers "demand more."


----------



## sagtor (Jul 1, 2020)

gbc said:


> I hope the surprise feature is a sub-$3000 price tag...


Yeah and for video people the same camera costs 3999? Makes sense lol.


----------



## raptor3x (Jul 1, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> I can't see the star tracking to be that good at all. It could help of course, but by how much? Olympus makes one, right? Or at least was about to when they announced it a few months ago. Are they saying it would be hand held or tripod a must?



Olympus hasn't implemented such a feature yet but Pentax has had that feature for years. You generally see roughly an order of magnitude increase in the exposure time you can get without star trails; so instead of rule of 500 you're looking at rule of 5000.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 1, 2020)

raptor3x said:


> Olympus hasn't implemented such a feature yet but Pentax has had that feature for years. You generally see roughly an order of magnitude increase in the exposure time you can get without star trails; so instead of rule of 500 you're looking at rule of 5000.



Thanks. I'll have to search for some example comparison pics.


----------



## reefroamer (Jul 1, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Which way, Mind-Control? I think I missed the joke, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if it is, but when thinking of an example, I remembered going to a Philipino funeral here in the USA, and asked my gf (of the same nationality) "why is he video taping a funeral?". Using a monopod, he recorded the entire funeral. Even she thought it was weird.


Yes, but it’s dying.


----------



## Contemplations (Jul 1, 2020)

It is the doubled number of pixels for situations where you have enough light and can do without the Dual Pixel AF (= 90 MP).


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Jul 1, 2020)

DBounce said:


> I would love to see this added. We can only hope.


That would be a killer feature!


----------



## Perio (Jul 1, 2020)

1/500 sec flash sync
1/16,000 sec max shutter speed


----------



## ColinJR (Jul 1, 2020)

With IBIS, I would like to see a pixel shift feature, but more practical things like 16-bit color, improved AF, built-in intervalometer, etc. would be even better.


----------



## ColinJR (Jul 1, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> please please please let it be a user-removable/replaceable IR cut filter


What would be the benefits of this? Astro photography? Serious question...


----------



## sanj (Jul 1, 2020)

Perio said:


> 1/500 sec flash sync
> 1/16,000 sec max shutter speed


That would be wonderful.


----------



## ColinJR (Jul 1, 2020)

Canon-Chas said:


> If its as good as Sony A9 II then Canon will have a good camera. Anything less then Canon will have failed .


This should be more comparable to the A7R IV. 1DX III is what would compare to the A9 II...


----------



## ColinJR (Jul 1, 2020)

mpb001 said:


> It would be really nice to have a landscape panorama mode, instead of stitching the frames in post.


Similarly, I would love if you could set an arbitrary crop in-camera (such as, 2.35:1).


----------



## JakeClrke (Jul 1, 2020)

Whilst I doubt we'll get dual gain output on the R5, maybe we could see improved implementation of dual pixel raw (functioning similarly to DGO on the C300iii), for high ISO stills?


----------



## Dmwfotos (Jul 1, 2020)

I keep hoping that Canon and others will recognize that there are a lot of photographers that would prefer to have a version of their cameras without all the video firmware mucking up the system.

I've watched the Canon menu system become more complex and difficult to navigate as more and more video features are added to the firmware.
Features I've never even bothered to look at because I buy the camera to make pictures.

It would hopefully also permit them to offer the camera, without all the bloat, at a lower price as well.

I know this is shouting into a gale, but just thought it was worth saying.


----------



## Porsche (Jul 1, 2020)

sagtor said:


> Yeah and for video people the same camera costs 3999? Makes sense lol.



perhaps the video firmware “upgrade” could cost an extra $1k?


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 1, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> I had to go research this one, and holy crap I can't believe it, they don't have it! Simple feature that EVERYONE ELSE HAS. And I'm starting to remember why I grew to hate Canon over the years. I hope the R5 is their redemption.


A total of three posts since you joined yesterday that all bash Canon. On a Canon centric website. Makes a person wonder why you joined.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Jul 1, 2020)

The biggest surprise and most welcome feature would be stacked sensor, otherwise we will have 1DXIII horrible rolling shutter other than in crop modes.


----------



## DBounce (Jul 1, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> Doesn't matter if there are a "lot"of people who want this, it won't happen because it's not a marketable camera, especially in today's badly injured market, but why on earth would they need two versions of the camera? A simple menu option to "hide video modes" would do the trick.


Or better yet, a stills/cinema switch which automatically changes the menus from video to stills like what’s Sigma are doing in the fp.


----------



## usern4cr (Jul 1, 2020)

I know some have wondered about a *stacked sensor*. I think that's very possible!  

But this feature just came to mind:
What if they finally had a *BSI (backside illuminated) sensor*?
That'd be great for increased quantum efficiency!
I have a feeling that this may not happen, at least not until they have a 80+ MP chip.
But man, that'd be news if it happened!


----------



## tpatana (Jul 1, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> This feature just came to mind:
> 
> What if they finally had a *BSI (backside illuminated) sensor*?
> That'd be great for increased quantum efficiency!
> Man, that'd be news!



If that makes it leap beyond expected, would it be called quantum leap?


----------



## SteveC (Jul 1, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> But UGH. This drives me crazy because Olympus pixel shift has supported flash from the very first time they implemented it in the E-M5 Mark II, which is, as far as I know, the first time anyone ever implemented it. And then everyone else came along an copies it, but worse.



You Olympians have an M5 Mark II, which is more than we Canon users can say.


----------



## rwvaughn (Jul 1, 2020)

yoms said:


> Not a feature, but would absolutely love seeing a development announcement for a 5D Mark V with the promise to throw everything they can at it as a statement for their last DSLR.



It's only my opinion, but I think you already have the last 5D DSLR in your hands. If the R5 lives up to its hype and still has unannounced surprises in store the 5DV will never come to market.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Jul 1, 2020)

Zero need for 5DV and I agree will never see the light of day.


----------



## SteveC (Jul 1, 2020)

Mr Majestyk said:


> Zero need for 5DV and I agree will never see the light of day.



That and an RF crop camera are two things I doubt will ever exist. They'd be more likely to make a "super EOS-M" (Mk 5-II?) to satisfy the crop people (or just expect them to put an R5 in crop mode, even if it is much more expensive).


----------



## marolou (Jul 1, 2020)

Less noise, to use all those new slow lenses


----------



## navastronia (Jul 1, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> I had to go research this one, and holy crap I can't believe it, they don't have it! Simple feature that EVERYONE ELSE HAS. And I'm starting to remember why I grew to hate Canon over the years. I hope the R5 is their redemption.



Doesn't the 1DX line have this?


----------



## jojo (Jul 1, 2020)

Mein Canon Shop informiert mich, wenn die Canon R5 verfügbar ist! https://achatzi.de/shop/index.phphttps : // achatzi . de / shop / index . php


----------



## marolou (Jul 1, 2020)

tvb said:


> To think what can be possible+interesting with the current tech...
> 
> IBIS:
> - pixel-shift
> ...




Pixel-shift: Ok, within 4/32'000 sec. electronically - So you can take real time Images


----------



## navastronia (Jul 1, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> Apparently yes, but it's a strange feature to artificially withhold from "lower-end" cameras.



I'm not going to turn into one of _those_ forumers (defending Canon for not including features), but it does feel like a niche mode, and I'm not surprised it's only in the 1DX line. Why? Because generally speaking, you can get great exposures using other tools, especially on a mirrorless system with a WYSIWYG EVF.

That said, iPhones do it, so it feels like it should be standard.


----------



## navastronia (Jul 1, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> It's not a deal breaking omission, but the fact that it's such a niche mode is precisely what makes it peculiar to restrict it to the 1 line. It's one of those things that's been there on every camera I've used for the last 5+ years, and if I hadn't read this thread I'd have assumed it would be on Canons too, because why wouldn't it be?
> 
> But what do I know, I'm just obsessively drooling over the R5 and "bashing" Canon to kill time while I wait lol.



No, it being a niche mode is _exactly_ why they would restrict it to the 1DX line. Think about it: would it make more sense to keep a highly _popular_ feature 1DX-exclusive? Don't get me wrong, I think it should be included everywhere (and I would probably use it, especially for eye and face tracking), but there's at least some logic to what they've done.


----------



## Danglin52 (Jul 1, 2020)

rwvaughn said:


> It's only my opinion, but I think you already have the last 5D DSLR in your hands. If the R5 lives up to its hype and still has unannounced surprises in store the 5DV will never come to market.



I have to ask this question of the original poster. If Canon can close the gap on battery life AND significantly reduce the latency between the image sensor and EVF, do you really care if they don't release a 5d V? If I did not shoot wildlife, I would have already migrated to a mirrorless because it has advantages over a DSLR. If you saw Fros review of the 1dx III, he loved the capability of the 1dx III when shooting his cobbled together "mirrorless" equivalent using the rear LCD panel. He was raving about the 1dx III as the example of what Canon could do with mirrorless rather than shooting as a DSLR. Whether you like Fro or not (he can be obnoxious), he did a pretty thorough comparison. I have already sold off my 5dIV and "landscape" oriented equipment, the 1dx II and wildlife stuff will go if the R5 fixes the two main issues with mirrorless.


----------



## Quackator (Jul 1, 2020)

Global shutter with full flash sync at all shutter speeds.
The holy grail.


----------



## navastronia (Jul 1, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I have to ask this question of the original poster. If Canon can close the gap on battery life AND significantly reduce the latency between the image sensor and EVF, do you really care if they don't release a 5d V? If I did not shoot wildlife, I would already have migrated to a mirrorless because I it has advantages over a DSLR. If you saw Fros review of the 1dx III, he loved the capability of the 1dx III when shooting his cobbled together "mirrorless" equivalent using the rear LCD panel. He was raving about the 1dx III as the example of what Canon could do with mirrorless rather than shooting as a DSLR. Whether you like Fro or not (he can be obnoxious), he did a pretty thorough comparison. If have already sold off my 5dIV and "landscape" oriented equipment, the 1dx II and wildlife stuff will go if the R5 fixes the two main issues.



I think it's time we move on from DSLRs. It's not like people won't be able to buy and use them for the next 50 years (hellllloooo, EBay), but with battery life and EVF issues addressed, I don't see a need for new ones (in before someone comments "the market determines the need! Canon will make what the market wants!")

Anyway, I preach the end of DSLRs while browsing 60-year-old Yashica TLR bodies


----------



## Joules (Jul 1, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> But what do I know, I'm just obsessively drooling over the R5 and "bashing" Canon to kill time while I wait lol.


Best don't get to upset with that. There genuinely are a lot of people who join the forum just to express how hard they are thinking about switching to Sony, or that they are disappointed with Canon. These people are just annoying, since they often act as if everybody who disagrees with them is delusional or does not see the light. Which is not the case, many are aware that there are limitations to the Canon system but simply don't care, as the limitations of other systems outweigh them for their personal use case.

These folks have been seen way less often since the R5 leak  But they may have left some members feeling a bit too sensitive about such or similar behavior, even to the point where it will be mistaken as such.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Jul 1, 2020)

As others have mentioned, it's boring and basic but please sort out the EFV lag and make the sensor read real time, otherwise pretty pointless having 12 / 20fps.

Built in ND / Grad filters would be nice.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 1, 2020)

navastronia said:


> I'm not going to turn into one of _those_ forumers (defending Canon for not including features), but it does feel like a niche mode, and I'm not surprised it's only in the 1DX line. Why? Because generally speaking, you can get great exposures using other tools, especially on a mirrorless system with a WYSIWYG EVF.
> 
> That said, iPhones do it, so it feels like it should be standard.


I can understand it not being in general purpose cameras but it is flat out wierd that my 7d2 does not have it


----------



## Andy Westwood (Jul 1, 2020)

No news at all so far on ISO levels on this camera, the R5 has a lot of MP’s to manage so might it have some mega new game changing noise reduction system, that could be a big advantage for photographers especially with these new F11 lenses.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Jul 1, 2020)

ColinJR said:


> This should be more comparable to the A7R IV. 1DX III is what would compare to the A9 II...



I don't think I agree. The A9 II is a fast camera but it is not on the level of the Nikon and Canon pro bodies. I expect the R5 to compete with the A9II. When we are talking pro bodies it'll be the R1 vs the Nikon Z (8/9?), two pre gripped bodies with excellent ergonomics and 20 MP so their data can be easily edited in moments.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 1, 2020)

Why do people think that DGO is not a _video_ feature?

How would DGO help on an ISO-invariant stills camera?


----------



## ozturert (Jul 1, 2020)

TheSalvatore said:


> Hmm... Could it be having Pixel Shift function same as the Sony?


Hopefully not the same as Sony, because Sony's implementation s.cks. Olympus, Panasonic and Pentax does it way better than Sony.


----------



## Mike9129 (Jul 1, 2020)

Sim slot to allow the camera to connect to the network itself and upload photos as you take them to Canons new cloud service?


----------



## Twinix (Jul 1, 2020)

Canon: Hey Craig, we need to program in some more features for those photographers you know, could you make them «guess» what it is? Thanks!


----------



## Gazwas (Jul 1, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> I have arrived here because of the new that Olympus is divesting their camera division, so I'm paying attention to other brand for the first time in years, and damn am I ever lusting after an R5 kit.
> 
> But UGH. This drives me crazy because Olympus pixel shift has supported flash from the very first time they implemented it in the E-M5 Mark II, which is, as far as I know, the first time anyone ever implemented it. And then everyone else came along an copies it, but worse.
> 
> I totally get why the trade-offs of Olympus wasn't for everyone, and in the end the gamble seems not to have paid off. But they deserve way more credit than they get for either inventing or perfecting features while everyone else was asleep at the wheel. Without Olympus, there would be way less excitement for a much less "innovative" R5 today.


OLYMPUS make amazing cameras (my first camera was an OM10) and is just a shame they stuck with small sensors when the market demanded bigger ones.

The fact that OLYMPUS has always supported flash with their multi-shot mode is the reason why it angers me with all the other manufacturers cameras with Imulti mode leave this functionallity out - even Leica with the new SL2 firmware haven't bothered........ Come on Canon, show the others why you're number one.


----------



## Del Paso (Jul 1, 2020)

Microbe eye AF ???


----------



## Lt Colonel (Jul 1, 2020)

Built in RT Flash Controller?


----------



## Th0msky (Jul 1, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> As others have mentioned, it's boring and basic but please sort out the EFV lag and make the sensor read real time, otherwise pretty pointless having 12 / 20fps.
> 
> Built in ND / Grad filters would be nice.


eh aren't mirrorless camera's kind of supposed to give you that feature that you don't really have a delay on your evf because you already see directly from your sensor what you are going to shoot? hence 'mirrorless'? (correct me if i'm wrong)


----------



## Steve Balcombe (Jul 1, 2020)

Lt Colonel said:


> Built in RT Flash Controller?


I don't think this could be the "major new feature", but I agree it would be a very good thing to have, and rather overdue. I was disappointed that the 5D4 didn't have it - at least with my crop bodies I can fall back on optical for my product photography etc., but the 5D4 has no built-in flash.


----------



## Steve Balcombe (Jul 1, 2020)

Th0msky said:


> eh aren't mirrorless camera's kind of supposed to give you that feature that you don't really have a delay on your evf because you already see directly from your sensor what you are going to shoot? hence 'mirrorless'? (correct me if i'm wrong)


However you slice it, seeing it a few milliseconds later means you press the shutter button a few milliseconds later.

Also, in many sports/action/wildlife long lens situations it's useful to keep the other (usually left) eye open to see things approaching from outside the field of view, but people who have done this tell me it's very unsettling that your two eyes are now out of sync. EVF lag will never be zero of course, but I imagine there could be a point where it is so close to real time that the brain can handle it.


----------



## IggyMo (Jul 1, 2020)

I would love it to be dual analog gain recording and mixing into to the digital output of the raw file. That would be crazy. This would allow us to have basically noiseless images anywhere between iso 100 and iso 10.000 and only from there you'd see the gradual increase in noise. I mean I would love to have images shot @ 20.000 iso that look like they were shot at 6.400 iso today...


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## herein2020 (Jul 1, 2020)

Does no one else find it odd that Canon themselves have said nothing about this so called upcoming release event? I don't know anything about Canon's press release history, but I would think with only 8 days to go that they would have already started the hype machine and provided some kind of countdown to the press release. According to their calendar, July looks like a very quiet month: https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/about/newsroom/events/#calendar


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## Mr Majestyk (Jul 1, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I have to ask this question of the original poster. If Canon can close the gap on battery life AND significantly reduce the latency between the image sensor and EVF, do you really care if they don't release a 5d V? If I did not shoot wildlife, I would have already migrated to a mirrorless because it has advantages over a DSLR. If you saw Fros review of the 1dx III, he loved the capability of the 1dx III when shooting his cobbled together "mirrorless" equivalent using the rear LCD panel. He was raving about the 1dx III as the example of what Canon could do with mirrorless rather than shooting as a DSLR. Whether you like Fro or not (he can be obnoxious), he did a pretty thorough comparison. I have already sold off my 5dIV and "landscape" oriented equipment, the 1dx II and wildlife stuff will go if the R5 fixes the two main issues with mirrorless.



The hope is the R5 can match the 1DXIII's LV AF performance, then we should get a good action camera at least in mechanical shutter mode. Rolling shutter will be too high to get much use out of e-shutter for action I'm sure.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Jul 1, 2020)

Th0msky said:


> eh aren't mirrorless camera's kind of supposed to give you that feature that you don't really have a delay on your evf because you already see directly from your sensor what you are going to shoot? hence 'mirrorless'? (correct me if i'm wrong)


In theory yes but in the R & RP and most other mirrorless camera's, asking the sensor to communicate with the EVF and also process new images, focusing etc when using high FPS is hard for it to cope with and the EVF can sometimes take second place to the image processing and have a little bit of lag or blackout. It's been well reported as an issue on the R so hopefully like the 1DX MKIII live view this has been resolved in the R5 or at least improved dramatically.

Im not an expert on the technical aspects so assume it's not just a mechanical shutter, sensor or processor issue but a combination of all three. It sounds like Canon have something exciting so hopefully its this area which if sorted would be a huge win.


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## Mr Majestyk (Jul 1, 2020)

IggyMo said:


> I would love it to be dual analog gain recording and mixing into to the digital output of the raw file. That would be crazy. This would allow us to have basically noiseless images anywhere between iso 100 and iso 10.000 and only from there you'd see the gradual increase in noise. I mean I would love to have images shot @ 20.000 iso that look like they were shot at 6.400 iso today...


Topaz Denois AI is your friend. I've shot birds at 25600 on Sony A9 and had excellent feather detail still after cleaning up with Topaz.


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## Aussie shooter (Jul 1, 2020)

Th0msky said:


> eh aren't mirrorless camera's kind of supposed to give you that feature that you don't really have a delay on your evf because you already see directly from your sensor what you are going to shoot? hence 'mirrorless'? (correct me if i'm wrong)


A mirror reflects light which travels(not surprisingly) at the speed of light. So no lag. An EVF requires light to hit the sensor and then for the computer to process the light and create a digital image in the EVF. Hence there is a delay


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## Eclipsed (Jul 1, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> - ISO that goes to zero or even negative



Isn't a lens cap a zero ISO filter?


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## Eclipsed (Jul 1, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> * EVF that can track the user eye pupil movement to determine focus point at a moving "*+*" target on the EVF screen. (oooh, soooo awesome!)



I'll settle for voice recognition AF. 

It responds to "No, dammit!" by trying a different subject or focal distance.


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## Eclipsed (Jul 1, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> After accidentally moving the AF point on the tough screen of my R about 50 times today, I'd like to see a setting to use a double tap to select a AF point on the touch screen.



This is truly brilliant. At least offer the option in the menu. Please.


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## londonxt (Jul 1, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> Actually, I wonder if it'll be 'bird-eye' focus or something..



Yeah nothing more awkward and fiddly than a frozen fish finger shoot, would be a game-changer


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## londonxt (Jul 1, 2020)

Im looking forward to the 180 degree wrap-around touch bar, so I can have all my camera functions within pecking distance


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## bbasiaga (Jul 1, 2020)

knight427 said:


> The star tracking feature would make me seriously consider skipping the R6 and saving up even longer to get the R5.



I don't think this is possible within the camera body, unfortunately. You need a tracking mount to do this for long enough to get night sky exposures. But star autofocus would be cool.


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## IggyMo (Jul 1, 2020)

Mr Majestyk said:


> Topaz Denois AI is your friend. I've shot birds at 25600 on Sony A9 and had excellent feather detail still after cleaning up with Topaz.



Well, it's not the same. Denoising a noisy image can't ever get close to an image that's basically noiseless to begin with, detail won't just be on the same level. My point was to say that we could basically gain 4-6 stops in ISO performance, which is huge.


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## Proscribo (Jul 1, 2020)

IggyMo said:


> I would love it to be dual analog gain recording and mixing into to the digital output of the raw file. That would be crazy. This would allow us to have basically noiseless images anywhere between iso 100 and iso 10.000 and only from there you'd see the gradual increase in noise. I mean I would love to have images shot @ 20.000 iso that look like they were shot at 6.400 iso today...





IggyMo said:


> Well, it's not the same. Denoising a noisy image can't ever get close to an image that's basically noiseless to begin with, detail won't just be on the same level. My point was to say that we could basically gain 4-6 stops in ISO performance, which is huge.


No, no, and no. Vast majority of the noise at high ISOs is the result from the natural noisiness of light itself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_noise, nothing you can do about that*.

*Assuming conventional bayer (or similar) sensors.


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## YuengLinger (Jul 1, 2020)

jdavidse said:


> SPOT METERING LINKED TO AF POINT
> 
> ...which would mean, they did indeed throw everything they had into this one


Fine, if it could be toggled to the traditional center area. I have no problem hitting AE Hold and recomposing. It's what I'm used to, what works for me. But I would definitely try it linked to AF point, and if I liked it, go with it. Just want the option to keep it in the center.


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## Del Paso (Jul 1, 2020)

I know what it will be (you read it here first !): it is a built-in cripple hammer.


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## Mark3794 (Jul 1, 2020)

AI-powered noise reduction in camera they collected the data using DPP, if you notice there is a cloud noise reduction function avaiable for the 1DX mark III, EOS R and 5D mkIV.

I'd have a great career as a conspiracist.


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## RMac (Jul 1, 2020)

My guess is it will be something enabled by having a movable sensor. A few possibilities:

Maybe pixel-shift ala what Sony introduced with the A7Rii to get full color sampling at all pixel sites.
The ability to dial in tilt in the camera by changing the angle of the sensor - thereby effectively giving you tilt movements for all your lenses (although I doubt this is it because this could probably be enabled for video as well)
Side-note - a tilt adapter for ef glass would be cool. Or a tilt-shift adapter for ef-m or RF with a crop sensor.

Possibilities that aren't related to IBIS:

Long-exposure mode where the camera takes multiple concurrent exposures and averages them in-camera letting you simulate the effect of ND filters without needing an ND filter. With a bunch of extra computational power (to facilitate stacking misaligned images) you could also use this to pull off something like the low-light mode in cell phones.
Auto-exposure-blending for high-dynamic-range scenes (something that spits out an un-tonemapped HDR raw files), although this probably wouldn't be super useful.
In-camera focus stacking (although this isn't really something new)
HEIF, although this wouldn't really be a surprise because 1Dxiii
Ability to hold down the shutter at top framerate and never fill the buffer if writing to CF Express (I kind of expect this will be the behavior for the mechanical shutter, maybe not for 20fps electronic, though).


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 1, 2020)

Interesting fact: when I google images by 'cripple hammer' keywords, google shows *only* the images of Canon cameras. Fascinating.


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## IggyMo (Jul 1, 2020)

Proscribo said:


> No, no, and no. Vast majority of the noise at high ISOs is the result from the natural noisiness of light itself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_noise, nothing you can do about that*.
> 
> *Assuming conventional bayer (or similar) sensors.



What are you talking about? Noise inherent to light isn't relevant here...
I'm talking of the noise that is introduced by every camera when you set your camera to higher ISO settings. When you set your iso on your camera, all it does is digitally amplify the signal coming from the sensor. Before that though the micro voltage coming from each pixel goes through an analog amplifier which basically gives a camera its base ISO (let's say base ISO on your camera is 400). This is your cleanest ISO. When you change your ISO on the camera, this signal is then digitally amplified upwards or downwards depending on your setting. This is where digital noise is being introduced. This is basically comparable to digital zoom.
My suggestion is canon introduce 2 analog converters with 2 base iso levels. Say 1 at ISO 400 the other at say ISO 3200. Then combine those 2 clean signals to create clean output at a larger ISO range. This is basically like using a zoom lens instead of fixed focal length with digital zoom.
The Black Magic Pocket Cinema Camera uses this technique already but for video. The difference is that they use one analog converter for all iso settings between ISO100 and up to iso 3000 (base iso set to 400 for this analog converter), and the other analog converter from ISO 3200 and higher (that 2nd analog converter base iso is set to iso 3200). That way you get clean images between iso 100 and iso 1800 then it starts degrading with increasing noise, but from ISO 3200 it's clean again before it starts degrading again from ISO8000 or there about. Of course that is on a tiny sensor of micro 4/3. If canon used this technique on a full frame sensor, the performance would be much nicer. On top of that I'm suggesting they combine both signals for the entire iso range in their digital amplification step.


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## Go Wild (Jul 1, 2020)

I believe it´s a no brainer that we still have things unknown and potencialy could surprise us (I mean....more than we are   )! There are still things unknown that can be very interesting like the sensor resolution and performance. We assume that is a 43 or 45mp sensor wich I also think it is, but we can get some surprises there. Pixel shift or other similar technology is one of them. I think Canon will not leave this out of the R5. Olympus has it, Sony has it (I don´t know if Fuji has it too...) so i guess it would be a great add. This could give us between 80/100MP photos with a lot of detail.

Other things photographers do want is of course, better ISO performance and DR...This are always the common requests. I would also want lack of blackout, this is important! We could also have something like the "pro capture" of Olympus, basically after half-press the shutter, camera starts recording images in buffer (2 second record in Olympus I believe) and then after press the shutter those 2 seconds of stills are recorded. This is very useful in bird photography for example, or fast moving subjects when the action starts very fast and you miss it.

We could also have the digital ND filters, it´s so useful!!

Even if the camera doesn´t have nothing of this, for me it´s just ok, I am already impressed by the camera with what we know. If something more is added, just great!!


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## blackcoffee17 (Jul 1, 2020)

I would love to see something similar to Live Composite and LIve Bulb like on the Olympus bodies.


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## Proscribo (Jul 1, 2020)

IggyMo said:


> What are you talking about? Noise inherent to light isn't relevant here...
> I'm talking of the noise that is introduced by every camera when you set your camera to higher ISO settings. When you set your iso on your camera, all it does is digitally amplify the signal coming from the sensor. Before that though the micro voltage coming from each pixel goes through an analog amplifier which basically gives a camera its base ISO (let's say base ISO on your camera is 400). This is your cleanest ISO. When you change your ISO on the camera, this signal is then digitally amplified upwards or downwards depending on your setting. This is where digital noise is being introduced. This is basically comparable to digital zoom.
> My suggestion is canon introduce 2 analog converters with 2 base iso levels. Say 1 at ISO 400 the other at say ISO 3200. Then combine those 2 clean signals to create clean output at a larger ISO range. This is basically like using a zoom lens instead of fixed focal length with digital zoom.
> The Black Magic Pocket Cinema Camera uses this technique already but for video. The difference is that they use one analog converter for all iso settings between ISO100 and up to iso 3000 (base iso set to 400 for this analog converter), and the other analog converter from ISO 3200 and higher (that 2nd analog converter base iso is set to iso 3200). That way you get clean images between iso 100 and iso 1800 then it starts degrading with increasing noise, but from ISO 3200 it's clean again before it starts degrading again from ISO8000 or there about. Of course that is on a tiny sensor of micro 4/3. If canon used this technique on a full frame sensor, the performance would be much nicer. On top of that I'm suggesting they combine both signals for the entire iso range in their digital amplification step.


Yeah you could extend the dynamic range that way, but it would not make "20.000 iso that look like they were shot at 6.400 iso today". Sony and its sensors have dual gain too (similar to BMPCC), and it does help a bit but just a bit (less than a stop). The noise introduced by the camera is so small that there just is not much to gain there.


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## jolyonralph (Jul 1, 2020)

ColinJR said:


> What would be the benefits of this? Astro photography? Serious question...



Removing the IR-cut filter and replacing it with an specific IR filter would allow you to shoot infrared images without modifying your camera. And yes, this would have benefits for astrophotography too. 

Anyway, pretty much zero chance of this being the secret new feature!


----------



## Joules (Jul 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Interesting fact: when I google images by 'cripple hammer' keywords, google shows *only* the images of Canon cameras. Fascinating.


Just tried it and you're right. That's hilarious


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## Joules (Jul 1, 2020)

Proscribo said:


> Yeah you could extend the dynamic range that way, but it would not make "20.000 iso that look like they were shot at 6.400 iso today". Sony and its sensors have dual gain too (similar to BMPCC), and it does help a bit but just a bit (less than a stop). The noise introduced by the camera is so small that there just is not much to gain there.


Not disagreeing with you here. Just want to point out that Canon DGO is different from what Sony is doing and seems closer to what ARRI cameras use to get their crazy DR numbers.

But I can't see them putting that in the R5. Unless the 1DX III has it as well and they just withheld it with firmware for shock value.


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## knight427 (Jul 1, 2020)

bbasiaga said:


> I don't think this is possible within the camera body, unfortunately. You need a tracking mount to do this for long enough to get night sky exposures. But star autofocus would be cool.



See Astrotracer


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## Proscribo (Jul 1, 2020)

Joules said:


> Not disagreeing with you here. Just want to point out that Canon DGO is different from what Sony is doing and seems closer to what ARRI cameras use to get their crazy DR numbers.
> 
> But I can't see them putting that in the R5. Unless the 1DX III has it as well and they just withheld it with firmware for shock value.


Yeah DGO is different in that it uses both gains at the same time by reading the separate halves of the pixel with different gains.

Could be that Canon didn't want to risk 1DX's release schedule by designing it with a DGO sensor and so opted for a more proven design. At the very least this is more probable than Canon jumping straight to a stacked sensor with R5 as some have suggested, especially at the rumored price point.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 1, 2020)

I just hope Canon gets this release right. They've had a decade to get ready for this. No more teasers. No more promises. Put up or shut up time. Go big or go home.


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## MaxDiesel (Jul 1, 2020)

iheartcanon said:


> "Since they noted, no more EF Lenses this would be a good trade off."
> 
> Did they actually say this somehwere? I have heard it a lot but not actually read anything official.



According to several articles including this one:
https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/...non-no-new-ef-lenses-unless-market-demands-it

I was still hoping for a 24-70 f/2.8 with IS, for my C200 run and gun situation, I would be very very happy to ditch the 24-105 mkii.
Tho with an adapter I’d be ok to invest in RF lenses since I’m quite interested by the R5.


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## Del Paso (Jul 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Interesting fact: when I google images by 'cripple hammer' keywords, google shows *only* the images of Canon cameras. Fascinating.


Which demonstrates the noxious influence of some crippled Canon hating brains...


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## TomR (Jul 1, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Does no one else find it odd that Canon themselves have said nothing about this so called upcoming release event? I don't know anything about Canon's press release history, but I would think with only 8 days to go that they would have already started the hype machine and provided some kind of countdown to the press release. According to their calendar, July looks like a very quiet month: https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/about/newsroom/events/#calendar



im with you here, its awfully quiet for a huge release a week away


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 1, 2020)

TomR said:


> im with you here, its awfully quiet for a huge release a week away



It's actually totally quiet on any future events, the calendar only has past events.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2020)

Steve Balcombe said:


> Also, in many sports/action/wildlife long lens situations it's useful to keep the other (usually left) eye open to see things approaching from outside the field of view, but people who have done this tell me it's very unsettling that your two eyes are now out of sync. EVF lag will never be zero of course, but I imagine there could be a point where it is so close to real time that the brain can handle it.



I use this two-eyed technique, and the Panasonic S1R is the mirrorless I've tried doesn't give a little trouble with timing. Sony's are pretty bad this way. It's bad enough that it gets worse the more frames you shoot. The electronic viewfinder pretends to be unobstructed by showing you a quick image of the picture you just took. This gets a couple milliseconds further behind each frame, until you think you're shooting the bird, and then you realize you're shooting behind the bird completely. I've seen Tony Northrup complain about this, but hadn't seen anyone else notice. I notice.


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## masterpix (Jul 1, 2020)

Myabe R5 and 5D at the same time?


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 1, 2020)

Funny to watch the guy's over at DP Review trying not to even mentioning Canon to avoid violating their NDA. You know that they have all the new Canon gear sitting just off camera. I imagine they'll have hands on reviews ready to go on announcement day.









DPReview TV: A call for slow, professional full frame lenses


Professional full frame lenses are usually large and have fast apertures. In this episode of DPReview TV, Chris and Jordan argue that there's a need for slow professional lenses – inspired by some of their favorite Micro Four Thirds lenses.




www.dpreview.com


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## IggyMo (Jul 1, 2020)

Proscribo said:


> Yeah you could extend the dynamic range that way, but it would not make "20.000 iso that look like they were shot at 6.400 iso today". Sony and its sensors have dual gain too (similar to BMPCC), and it does help a bit but just a bit (less than a stop). The noise introduced by the camera is so small that there just is not much to gain there.


The dual gain doesn't make your sensor better in the dynamic range category. Dymamic range is all about the capabilities of light gathering by the sensor itself and being able to distinguish between the most minute voltage differences (i.e. gathered light differences) of every pixel. Dual gain (analog) is all about noise performance at various iso settings. It's about avoiding digital noise. And as you say, sony cameras that do use dual iso perform very well at high iso with little noise.


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 1, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> Well, as I stated in my first post, which you apparently read, I am here because my current brand is almost certainly about to be resigned to the history books, and I am exploring options for the future, and I am very excited by the EOS R5, and if I wasn't, I would not have even found this website.
> 
> If you seriously interpret my posts as "bashing" Canon, I suggest you take a chill pill and remember that Canon is a corporation, not your grandmother.
> 
> It's actually kind of mind boggling how you could reach that conclusion when my first two posts aren't even about Canon, but just general commentary on camera features, and the third is just genuine surprise at learning they don't offer a basic software feature that everyone else does.




And your shining personality continues to shine on through.

" And I'm starting to remember why I grew to hate Canon over the years. "

Yeah. Can't understand why someone might interpret your posts as bashing, considering this is your tone right out of the gate.


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## HikeBike (Jul 1, 2020)

Shoots 3-D full-color holograms. You heard it here first.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 1, 2020)

Th0msky said:


> eh aren't mirrorless camera's kind of supposed to give you that feature that you don't really have a delay on your evf because you already see directly from your sensor what you are going to shoot? hence 'mirrorless'? (correct me if i'm wrong)


There is lag, and its noticable.


----------



## raptor3x (Jul 1, 2020)

IggyMo said:


> What are you talking about? Noise inherent to light isn't relevant here...
> I'm talking of the noise that is introduced by every camera when you set your camera to higher ISO settings. When you set your iso on your camera, all it does is digitally amplify the signal coming from the sensor. Before that though the micro voltage coming from each pixel goes through an analog amplifier which basically gives a camera its base ISO (let's say base ISO on your camera is 400). This is your cleanest ISO. When you change your ISO on the camera, this signal is then digitally amplified upwards or downwards depending on your setting. This is where digital noise is being introduced. This is basically comparable to digital zoom.



You're understanding here is a bit off. Increasing the ISO value actually decreases the electronic noise in the image. The reason images at higher ISO tend to be noisier is because you're trying to create similar levels of brightness with less light which increases shot noise just like the other poster mentioned.


----------



## raptor3x (Jul 1, 2020)

IggyMo said:


> The dual gain doesn't make your sensor better in the dynamic range category. Dymamic range is all about the capabilities of light gathering by the sensor itself and being able to distinguish between the most minute voltage differences (i.e. gathered light differences) of every pixel. Dual gain (analog) is all about noise performance at various iso settings. It's about avoiding digital noise. And as you say, sony cameras that do use dual iso perform very well at high iso with little noise.



It does affect dynamic range as well, especially with the Canon style implementation when electronic read noise is the limiting factor. It's very similar to the DualISO implementation in magiclantern where the high ISO signal is used to reduce the effects of electronic read noise in the shadows while the low ISO read is used to maintain highlight headroom. The advantage of using it with dual pixel sensors is that you avoid the whole "half vertical resolution" thing from magiclantern's implementation.


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## raptor3x (Jul 1, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> There is lag, and its noticable.



Depends on the camera, quite a few of them are in the single digit ms range for EVF lag now which is not really perceptible at all.


----------



## bbasiaga (Jul 1, 2020)

knight427 said:


> See Astrotracer


Ah yeah. I wasn't thinking about that. My astrophoto experience is mainly higher mag, longer exposure which this kind of thing would not help greatly. But it would be good for the combo landscape/asto stuff!


----------



## Eclipsed (Jul 1, 2020)

bbasiaga said:


> I don't think this is possible within the camera body, unfortunately. You need a tracking mount to do this for long enough to get night sky exposures. But star autofocus would be cool.


Imagine a 20 minute exposure. That's 5 degrees of image shift at worst (at the celestial equator, less nearer the poles). With a wide or normal lens that is very little cropping to essentially "stack" a long sequence of exposures. For telephoto, it means that a tracking mount is not alignment critical. Notably, a smart system may well accommodate even rotational drift, and could include lens profiles to convert to a sprical projection for each image and then back to flat..


----------



## Eclipsed (Jul 1, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> Removing the IR-cut filter and replacing it with an specific IR filter would allow you to shoot infrared images without modifying your camera. And yes, this would have benefits for astrophotography too.
> 
> Anyway, pretty much zero chance of this being the secret new feature!



I'm wondering if there would be a good way to implement AF assist in the dark with an invisible IR illuminator.


----------



## bbasiaga (Jul 1, 2020)

Eclipsed said:


> Imagine a 20 minute exposure. That's 5 degrees of image shift at worst (at the celestial equator, less nearer the poles). With a wide or normal lens that is very little cropping to essentially "stack" a long sequence of exposures. For telephoto, it means that a tracking mount is not alignment critical. Notably, a smart system may well accommodate even rotational drift, and could include lens profiles to convert to a sprical projection for each image and then back to flat..


I don't think the IBIS system has a ton of range of motion, so that will ultimately limit how long a single exposure can be to keep the star on the same pixel. You won't get any where near 20minutes. By cropping a section of the image and 'following' it across the sensor and the stacking it up, you are looking at a software solution vs. a hardware solution. Still, could be interesting. This technique is readily available in free software outside of the camera (on your computer), including the rotational correction. Could the horsepower of the processing required be contained in this generation of camera? One day it will be, but we'll find out in a week or so if it is! If so, imagine all the other things it could do!


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## geffy (Jul 1, 2020)

it has a Nikon mount............


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## amorse (Jul 1, 2020)

The article says there is another surprise for photographers, but it doesn't necessarily indicate that it is brand new technology exclusive to Canon here. I'm inclined to bet it's a pixelshift mode to increase resolution or color detail. Adding IBIS and not taking advantage of pixelshifting, as is done by other manufacturers, seems like leaving an opportunity on the table and I don't think there's been mention of it yet.


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## usern4cr (Jul 1, 2020)

Eclipsed said:


> Imagine a 20 minute exposure. That's 5 degrees of image shift at worst (at the celestial equator, less nearer the poles). With a wide or normal lens that is very little cropping to essentially "stack" a long sequence of exposures. For telephoto, it means that a tracking mount is not alignment critical. Notably, a smart system may well accommodate even rotational drift, and could include lens profiles to convert to a sprical projection for each image and then back to flat..


Please, *read* this link: Astrotracer

If you read it, you will notice the author finds they can get 4 minute tracks with excellent results. That's not 20 minutes. But *what they get in 4 minutes is beautiful*. Also, they mention they do have some issues with extremely wide angle lenses and mention the lens ranges that do work reliably.

Also, Olympus added star focusing and tracking in their new EM1mark3.

There's a lot of various ideas & features are being talked about here, that are *already working* in other cameras. If Canan simply copied & improved what has been done before then they could have the best of all of them. They have spectacular lenses & new bodies & sensors. The rest is *"Just a firmware update away!"*


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## Kit. (Jul 1, 2020)

IggyMo said:


> What are you talking about? Noise inherent to light isn't relevant here...
> I'm talking of the noise that is introduced by every camera when you set your camera to higher ISO settings.


That's the noise inherent to the light.



IggyMo said:


> When you set your iso on your camera, all it does is digitally amplify the signal coming from the sensor.


Typically, it's the analog amplifier gain what is changed (at least for full stop changes from the base ISO).

However, for an ISO-invariant sensor (and the R5 sensor is expected to be very close to ISO-invariant, at least in mechanical shutter stills mode) there is no difference between analog and digital amplifying.



IggyMo said:


> Before that though the micro voltage coming from each pixel goes through an analog amplifier which basically gives a camera its base ISO (let's say base ISO on your camera is 400).


The base ISO of your camera is given by the opaqueness of its Bayer filter, by the efficiency of the photoelectron conversion and by the amount of photoelectrons a sensor can hold per square mm of its area without overflowing. The base ISO of all modern color sensors is around 100.



IggyMo said:


> This is where digital noise is being introduced.


First of all, digital noise is introduced by the captured light being _a number_ of particles (photons).


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## davo (Jul 1, 2020)

I see an R10 battery Grip is going to be announced. What if this grip includes a fan system to deal with heat?? That would work wouldn't it? The ONLY side of the R5 we have NOT seen is the bottom. What if there is a cooling duct ports thingy that engages to this grip to allows airflow from the grip. So if you want to do extended 8K or 4K120 you would need to attach the grip.


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## Act444 (Jul 1, 2020)

Perhaps a user-adjustable AA filter? That would be nice


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## TomR (Jul 1, 2020)

davo said:


> I see an R10 battery Grip is going to be announced. What if this grip includes a fan system to deal with heat?? That would work wouldn't it? The ONLY side of the R5 we have NOT seen is the bottom. What if there is a cooling duct ports thingy that engages to this grip to allows airflow from the grip. So if you want to do extended 8K or 4K120 you would need to attach the grip.



that would not be a feature it would be a drawback


----------



## Go Wild (Jul 1, 2020)

TomR said:


> that would not be a feature it would be a drawback


Also it would be a video thing, not a stills thing...


----------



## joestopper (Jul 1, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Here is my guess for the "major new feature":
- Sensor cooling with Peltier -
-- major leap in noise reduction
-- first such feature in DSLR/DSLM (long time known in dedicated astro cameras)

With that feature, all of the sudden the new super tele primes with f/11 make sense: You can shoot BIF at dawn by bumping ISO to 25600. IQ will be like ISO 800 in non-cooled sensor. 
Anything low-light will profit.
It is also the answer to the long discussed question how Canon manages heat when reading the sensor in 8k video.


----------



## M. D. Vaden of Oregon (Jul 1, 2020)

*I can see it now !!!*

*16K in Crop mode ...*


----------



## highdesertmesa (Jul 2, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Here is my guess for the "major new feature":
> - Sensor cooling with Peltier -
> -- major leap in noise reduction
> -- first such feature in DSLR/DSLM (long time known in dedicated astro cameras)
> ...



One thing is certain: Canon wouldn't be making f/7.1 L zooms and f/11 primes if they didn't have insane (as in industry-shaking) improvements in store for high ISO noise. Canon must have achieved current f/5.6-level IQ at f/11. So that's the amount of light/improvement we're talking about here – _at minimum, IMO. _


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Doesn't the 1DX line have this?


All the 1 series cameras have had it going back to at least the 1V film camera, that also has it.


----------



## Faddycat (Jul 2, 2020)

FV+ mode, where you use each of the 4 dials (including lens dial) dedicated to each variable (aperture, shutter, ISO, compensation) so no more faffing about with moving from one variable to another with the back dial. And Canon, please make sure there is metering for full manual in this mode.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

Faddycat said:


> FV+ mode, where you use each of the 4 dials (including lens dial) dedicated to each variable (aperture, shutter, ISO, compensation) so no more faffing about with moving from one variable to another with the back dial. And Canon, please make sure there is metering for full manual in this mode.


Why do you need four dials to control three variables?


----------



## deleteme (Jul 2, 2020)

Global Shutter (please, please,please, pretty pleeeeease)


----------



## deleteme (Jul 2, 2020)

Paul Nordin said:


> Two things that have not been discussed yet: Resolution & DR.


Yes. And when I mention that, a flock of trolls scream that "It is 45MP cuz 8K!!"
Maybe but until Canon sez so, it ain't so.


----------



## deleteme (Jul 2, 2020)

Shivu said:


> Global Shutter like in newly developed SPAD sensor


But more than 1MP please.


----------



## deleteme (Jul 2, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Which way, Mind-Control? I think I missed the joke, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if it is, but when thinking of an example, I remembered going to a Philipino funeral here in the USA, and asked my gf (of the same nationality) "why is he video taping a funeral?". Using a monopod, he recorded the entire funeral. Even she thought it was weird.


I have been hired by Filipino families to photograph funerals. As I grew up in the Philippines I knew it was a thing.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 2, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> One thing is certain: Canon wouldn't be making f/7.1 L zooms and f/11 primes if they didn't have insane (as in industry-shaking) improvements in store for high ISO noise. Canon must have achieved current f/5.6-level IQ at f/11. So that's the amount of light/improvement we're talking about here – _at minimum, IMO. _



#what.are.you.smoking......


----------



## Aregal (Jul 2, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Exactly.
> 
> And for everyone here who doesn’t know about dual gain output sensors:
> 
> http://[URL]https://nofilmschool.com/could-canon-eos-r5-receive-dual-gain-output-sensor[/URL]


If the R5 has DualGainISO, I would lose my mind. I’d really stop looking at Arri Alexa Classics. haha.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 2, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> I have been hired by Filipino families to photograph funerals. As I grew up in the Philippines I knew it was a thing.



I just read this to my Filipino gf and she giggled.


----------



## CvH (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Why do you need four dials to control three variables?



Exposure compensation .


----------



## tpatana (Jul 2, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> I have been hired by Filipino families to photograph funerals. As I grew up in the Philippines I knew it was a thing.



I've only been to Finnish and Japanese funerals. So why wouldn't there be a photographer? Is that not good? (asking seriously, I did shoot one for a friend in Finland too so I didn't know there's something wrong with that)


----------



## tpatana (Jul 2, 2020)

Chz said:


> Exposure compensation .



Shoot manual mode and you don't need EC.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

Chz said:


> Exposure compensation .


What does exposure compensation do if you are in a mode that has a dial to control the only three exposure factors?


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

tpatana said:


> Shoot manual mode and you don't need EC.


That was kinda my point too.


----------



## SteveC (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Why do you need four dials to control three variables?



Maybe one is for exposure comp? Yes, in FV mode you can control that too, in case you're happy to leave a couple of the others in "auto" mode. So, if you right now want to control aperture and shutter speed, you can either then control ISO, or let the camera pick the ISO, with exposure compensation. It does work.


----------



## CvH (Jul 2, 2020)

tpatana said:


> Shoot manual mode and you don't need EC.



I shoot manual a lot and with ISO in Auto. Exposure compensation help when I want to under or over expose a scene without have to change the ISO mode from Auto.


----------



## CvH (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> What does exposure compensation do if you are in a mode that has a dial to control the only three exposure factors?



When in Manual mode, I typically set the ISO to Auto then use exposure compensation to fine tune exposure.

I probably won’t need this if the Metering is linked to the focus point like the 1Dx series. Hence I wish the R5 will include this feature.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

Chz said:


> I shoot manual a lot and with ISO in Auto. Exposure compensation help when I want to under or over expose a scene without have to change the ISO mode from Auto.





Chz said:


> When in Manual mode, I typically set the ISO to Auto then use exposure compensation to fine tune exposure.
> 
> I probably won’t need this if the Metering is linked to the focus point like the 1Dx series. Hence I wish the R5 will include this feature.



Then you still only need three dials!

If you are in 'manual' with auto iso you need three dials, one for shutter speed, one for aperture and one for EC. If you are in actual manual then you need three dials, one for shutter speed, one for aperture and one for iso, there is no EC in actual manual mode.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> One thing is certain: Canon wouldn't be making f/7.1 L zooms and f/11 primes if they didn't have insane (as in industry-shaking) improvements in store for high ISO noise. Canon must have achieved current f/5.6-level IQ at f/11. So that's the amount of light/improvement we're talking about here – _at minimum, IMO. _


I don't believe that for a second.

There is nothing to gain in high iso DR as all manufacturers are within a hairsbreadth of each other. https://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS 1D X Mark III,Nikon D5,Nikon D6,Sony ILCE-9M2


----------



## CvH (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Then you still only need three dials!
> 
> If you are in 'manual' with auto iso you need three dials, one for shutter speed, one for aperture and one for EC. If you are in actual manual then you need three dials, one for shutter speed, one for aperture and one for iso, there is no EC in actual manual mode.



Wrong. On the R and in Manual mode and ISO to Auto. I can set the Control Right for exposure compensation. So I want the 4th dial for ISO.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

Chz said:


> Wrong. On the R and in Manual mode and ISO to Auto. I can set the Control Right for exposure compensation. So I want the 4th dial for ISO.


Why do you want to move the ISO if you have it in auto? That is the question.


----------



## Proscribo (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> There is nothing to gain in high iso DR as all manufacturers are within a hairsbreadth of each other.


Actually you probably mean nothing to gain in high ISO shadow noise, as with an ISO invariant sensor you could just use base ISO through the whole range and have base ISO dynamic range all the way to "ISO102400" or whatever the marketing team wants to put out.


----------



## navastronia (Jul 2, 2020)

tpatana said:


> Shoot manual mode and you don't need EC.



real talk, cameras below the 5D/7D level are hard to shoot manual because they lack the controls, like touch wheels, to do so.

This includes the EOS R.


----------



## Faddycat (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Why do you want to move the ISO if you have it in auto? That is the question.



That's because the point of FV is so that you don't need to have PASM dial any more. Want A, just adjust dial for aperture. Want manual with auto ISO, adjust dial for aperture and shutter, with compensation available. Want full manual, adjust aperture, shutter and ISO. And you can go back to full auto with just one button. That's the beauty of FV. Right now the implementation is using two dials, I'm hoping with four dials, they enable instant access to any variable, without scrolling like what you need to do now.


----------



## maniacalrobot (Jul 2, 2020)

I'll throw my 2cents in the ring: Builtin ND filter on the Sensor, like an inverse ISO gain. So ISO 100 is your based, but changing down to a new ISO 50 would reduce the light captured/collected by the sensor, and allow you to use wide open lenses during the day, bloggers are going to love something like that.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 2, 2020)

Sorry, did someone already mention an integrated bottle opener by any chance?


----------



## sobrien (Jul 2, 2020)

Faddycat said:


> FV+ mode, where you use each of the 4 dials (including lens dial) dedicated to each variable (aperture, shutter, ISO, compensation) so no more faffing about with moving from one variable to another with the back dial. And Canon, please make sure there is metering for full manual in this mode.



The beauty of Fv mode is being able to instantly set a value from whatever is chosen to auto. So essentially you can instantly switch between Av mode and manual and back again. The “faffing about” between the different variables is a necessary part of that so that when you press “reset to auto” it resets the correct variable. I guess you could have separate buttons, each dedicated to resetting a specific variable, but that doesn’t seem ideal either.


----------



## CvH (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Why do you want to move the ISO if you have it in auto? That is the question.



Good question. When I am shooting landscape I can easily change the ISO from Auto to a particular ISO value using a control dial. And if I shoot other subjects like portrait or events I can quickly change the ISO simply by turning the dial.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

Faddycat said:


> That's because the point of FV is so that you don't need to have PASM dial any more. Want A, just adjust dial for aperture. Want manual with auto ISO, adjust dial for aperture and shutter, with compensation available. Want full manual, adjust aperture, shutter and ISO. And you can go back to full auto with just one button. That's the beauty of FV. Right now the implementation is using two dials, I'm hoping with four dials, they enable instant access to any variable, without scrolling like what you need to do now.


There are three variables ss, aperture, iso, in manual there is no EC. In an auto or 'semi' auto mode there are zero, one or two variables set by the user and EC so again a maximum of three variables. 

it never ceases to amaze me how complicated people make changing three values.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

Chz said:


> Good question. When I am shooting landscape I can easily change the ISO from Auto to a particular ISO value using a control dial. And if I shoot other subjects like portrait or events I can quickly change the ISO simply by turning the dial.


I'm sorry, we seem to be talking about completely different things here, I am not communicating the question I have for you in a way you can reply. Your reply didn't relate to my question.


----------



## tpatana (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> There are three variables ss, aperture, iso, in manual there is no EC. In an auto or 'semi' auto mode there are zero, one or two variables set by the user and EC so again a maximum of three variables.
> 
> it never ceases to amaze me how complicated people make changing three values.



I think it'd be great idea to create diagram, maybe like square but with 3 corners. And place each value on those corners to show how they impact each other. We could call it three cornered square of illumination.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 2, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> One thing is certain: Canon wouldn't be making f/7.1 L zooms and f/11 primes if they didn't have insane (as in industry-shaking) improvements in store for high ISO noise. Canon must have achieved current f/5.6-level IQ at f/11. So that's the amount of light/improvement we're talking about here – _at minimum, IMO. _


That would certainly be a crazy achievement. I did not think there was that much room for improvement in current sensor tech. And it would absolutely change my mind about the f11 primes.


----------



## Dphotos (Jul 2, 2020)

Say the camera is 45MP I would like to see as a photographer to chose what raw file size I would want. If I wanted a 20 MP or a 30MP depending on my job I would like to decide to pick the file size to save storage space and to speed up my computer. Second I would like to see the new Canon to shoot incredible great pictures with no noticeable noise in low light conditions.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

tpatana said:


> I think it'd be great idea to create diagram, maybe like square but with 3 corners. And place each value on those corners to show how they impact each other. We could call it three cornered square of illumination.


Now that is very original idea, I wonder if it could catch on, maybe put some work into the name?


----------



## Joules (Jul 2, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> I'm not upset, just genuinely perplexed. The canon cripple hammer meme didn't come out of nowhere, but if so many Canon fans find it objectionable to offer even mild criticism of their favoured brand, I think I see why Canon has gotten away with it for so long (that and owning 50% of the market).


I was just providing context for why your valid and indeed minor criticism may have provoked an unwarranted response.

There certainly are Canon users that get overly defensive. But there really are a ton of folks who's only contribution to the forum is projecting what they value in a camera to everybody else and talking down to the people who have different values. My point is simply that I would not put too much weight on one comment that seems to have mistaken you for one of those people. Which you don't seem to do anyway, so that's fine. Many of us simply grew quite tired over being told how much greener the Grass is elsewhere with sometimes silly arguments.

Disagreeing with claims that Canon's DR is terrible or that they are ******* is not about loyalty. It's just about acknowledging that everybody has their set of preferences.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 2, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> Yes. And when I mention that, a flock of trolls scream that "It is 45MP cuz 8K!!"
> Maybe but until Canon sez so, it ain't so.



They're not trolls just because you disagree with them. The assumption may be wrong, but it is not unreasonable.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jul 2, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> That would certainly be a crazy achievement. I did not think there was that much room for improvement in current sensor tech. And it would absolutely change my mind about the f11 primes.



I think maybe 1 stop improvement is possible but even that is a bit of stretch in my opinion.


----------



## drama (Jul 2, 2020)

Dphotos said:


> Say the camera is 45MP I would like to see as a photographer to chose what raw file size I would want. If I wanted a 20 MP or a 30MP depending on my job I would like to decide to pick the file size to save storage space and to speed up my computer. Second I would like to see the new Canon to shoot incredible great pictures with no noticeable noise in low light conditions.



I don't understand the logic here - why this would be a function if the camera can work at it's fastest frame rate? the goal is data capture, so the more you can get out of one exposure the better, and just crop afterwards?


----------



## Kit. (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Why do you need four dials to control three variables?


Convenience of not switching the meanings of dials when you switch modes.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 2, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Here is my guess for the "major new feature":
> - Sensor cooling with Peltier -
> -- major leap in noise reduction


Only for very slow shutter speeds.

Besides, a Peltier element makes _extra_ heat to dissipate.



joestopper said:


> With that feature, all of the sudden the new super tele primes with f/11 make sense:


Only if you use them as astro lenses (on an equatorial mount).


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 2, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> I think maybe 1 stop improvement is possible but even that is a bit of stretch in my opinion.


Yeah. I think it is pushing the hopes as well. Unless canon have developed a new type of sensor that nobody has thought of before. And if they have I could not imagine how they kept it quiet from the world


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Jul 2, 2020)

navastronia said:


> real talk, cameras below the 5D/7D level are hard to shoot manual because they lack the controls, like touch wheels, to do so.
> 
> This includes the EOS R.



I use the R in manual without an issue and I don't even need to use the control ring on the lens to do so. Really not hard at all


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Convenience of not switching the meanings of dials when you switch modes.


Balanced against the comparative complexity of working four dials when in general one or two does the job pretty well and is easier to learn?

Personally I shoot 90% of the time in manual so almost never need EC, however in dynamic situations I like to use auto iso with shutter and aperture dials and a separate EC dial, I really like the way the M5 is laid out for this. I also find the Nikon thumb wheel more intuitive than the Canon scroll pad but find the Nikon's too fat.

I do agree that in more recent times as iso has become a more genuine variable (back in the film days we were pretty committed to a set value) the idea of the ideal control interface has become more complex, but maybe I just see things more simply rather than trying to complicate stuff.


----------



## Viggo (Jul 2, 2020)

Would’ve liked native iso of 12 or 6 instead of one hundred million, billion ISO’s (read like Dr.Evil)


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jul 2, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Yeah. I think it is pushing the hopes as well. Unless canon have developed a new type of sensor that nobody has thought of before. And if they have I could not imagine how they kept it quiet from the world



Hopefully something will be implemented from all those sensor patents Canon had over the last few years.


----------



## CvH (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I'm sorry, we seem to be talking about completely different things here, I am not communicating the question I have for you in a way you can reply. Your reply didn't relate to my question.



May be I didn't explain clearly.

You questioned why I would move ISO if it's in Auto. I ONLY set the ISO to Auto when shooting portrait and events with natural light and will not change the ISO. I would use manual ISO when using flash.

I like the ability to change the ISO from Auto to whatever the value when shooting landscape. So the 4th dial is handly for me. 1 for Aperture, 1 for Shutterspeed, and 1 for exposure compensation.


----------



## venusFivePhotoStudio (Jul 2, 2020)

I think there will be custom in-camera opacity masks, and 150mp pixel shift. I've seen some pictures on Vincent Laforet facebook and it seems 




__ https://www.facebook.com/laforetvisuals/photos/a.1587789738106325/2597598857125403


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 2, 2020)

venusFivePhotoStudio said:


> I think there will be custom in-camera opacity masks, and 150mp pixel shift. I've seen some pictures on Vincent Laforet facebook and it seems
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting... how is the 150mp pixel shift theory fits with the 45Mp sensor rumour? Thought that Pixel shift image size should be a multiple of sensor size? x4?


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Jul 2, 2020)

So if we have Pixel Shift, whats the downside to this tech? I am assuming I can't 12FPS it at a running fox?


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 2, 2020)

Chz said:


> Wrong. On the R and in Manual mode and ISO to Auto. I can set the Control Right for exposure compensation. So I want the 4th dial for ISO.


Lens control ring.


----------



## tss68nl (Jul 2, 2020)

Seeing they've incorporated IBIS, this extra feature for stills must undoubtedly be pixel-shift to up your stills resolution to 179MP or so.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 2, 2020)

tss68nl said:


> Seeing they've incorporated IBIS, this extra feature for stills must undoubtedly be pixel-shift to up your stills resolution to 179MP or so.


Reported 150MP though. That hints at sensor resolution being 150/4? 37.5MP. Just guessing here. I am not quite up to speed with this tech yet.


----------



## criscokkat (Jul 2, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Sorry, did someone already mention an integrated bottle opener by any chance?


This would actually be totally doable as part of a metal buckle on the camera strap.


----------



## fox40phil (Jul 2, 2020)

Shifting sensor for astrophotography?!?!!?! Like the Pentax K1!? THIS would be HUGE!


----------



## fox40phil (Jul 2, 2020)

And how about a learnable camera!?!? With different settings for maybe sports... which leanrs better to track the subject with the "ball" or something else  Maybe in 10-20 years?!


----------



## stochasticmotions (Jul 2, 2020)

Would love to see a bigger buffer to go with the 10 fps shooting....doesn't need to be 1D matching, but it would be nice to be able to do a few 5-10 shot bursts over a few seconds....that would be a big bonus from the 5D series that I have owned. Everything else about this camera already makes me as excited as I was when I was first hoping to buy the 5DII. Should be every bit as good for stills as the Sony A7RIV that I'm using now but will give my 500f/4 a new life and the video spec will be an added bonus.


----------



## CvH (Jul 2, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Lens control ring.





CanonFanBoy said:


> Lens control ring.



Correct. Typo on my original post. I set the Lens Control Ring for exposure compensation.


----------



## chasingrealness (Jul 2, 2020)

Totally random, but I’d really love a built-in gif maker. Don’t get me wrong there are other features I’d love way more but I mean that would be pretty cool, right?


----------



## PureClassA (Jul 2, 2020)

I think at this point, the MAJOR new feature would be that it actually WILL do stills 

Some of you guys on here have been so worried about the video feature set hype, I think ya'll were really wondering if it would do a still frame


----------



## PureClassA (Jul 2, 2020)

Hey that was my 2000th post in CR Forums! What did I win?!?!


----------



## tss68nl (Jul 2, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Reported 150MP though. That hints at sensor resolution being 150/4? 37.5MP. Just guessing here. I am not quite up to speed with this tech yet.


It is possible that he cropped the image, or, didn't give an exact number of MP to not give away details he obviously cannot do under NDA.


----------



## tss68nl (Jul 2, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I think at this point, the MAJOR new feature would be that it actually WILL do stills
> 
> Some of you guys on here have been so worried about the video feature set hype, I think ya'll were really wondering if it would do a still frame



It at least does 33MP stills at a rate of 30 fps


----------



## Marakesh (Jul 2, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Does no one else find it odd that Canon themselves have said nothing about this so called upcoming release event? I don't know anything about Canon's press release history, but I would think with only 8 days to go that they would have already started the hype machine and provided some kind of countdown to the press release. According to their calendar, July looks like a very quiet month: https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/about/newsroom/events/#calendar



Guess the event is official
https://www.canon.co.uk/pro/events/reimagine-live-event/
09.07.2020 – 14:00 CEST


----------



## highdesertmesa (Jul 2, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> #what.are.you.smoking......



8K full width I guess.


----------



## StoicalEtcher (Jul 2, 2020)

Viggo said:


> Would’ve liked native iso of 12 or 6 instead of one hundred million, billion ISO’s (read like Dr.Evil)


I'm with you on that Viggo - I'd love to be able to have a really low native iso.


----------



## highdesertmesa (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I don't believe that for a second.
> 
> There is nothing to gain in high iso DR as all manufacturers are within a hairsbreadth of each other. https://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS 1D X Mark III,Nikon D5,Nikon D6,Sony ILCE-9M2
> 
> View attachment 191087



So because all manufacturers are close, that means there can be no gains? You can say there don’t need to be any gains, I would get that.


----------



## TheSalvatore (Jul 2, 2020)

Singapore and Asia Canon just uploaded this. Well I Guess it’s real for 9th July! Can’t wait!


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> So because all manufacturers are close, that means there can be no gains? You can say there don’t need to be any gains, I would get that.


No, the point was all manufacturers are so close in high iso because current technology is limited by laws of physics. Until there is a substantial change in technology, a revolutionary change that hasn’t been demoed or patented anywhere, or the laws of physics are negated there is practically little improvement to be had at high iso.

Demanding a stop or two of improved high iso performance is akin to wanting your next family car to go 1,000 mph, yes there might be a car or two that can go that fast but you wouldn’t want to pay for it and even if you did it isn’t practical.


----------



## koketso (Jul 2, 2020)

Increased bracketing options like Sony.
There, I said it.


----------



## canonnews (Jul 2, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> So because all manufacturers are close, that means there can be no gains? You can say there don’t need to be any gains, I would get that.


diminishing returns are certainly present chasing the high DR title.


----------



## mattamaxwell (Jul 2, 2020)

This is my first comment but I wonder if Canon could be introducing computational photography tricks that we have seen on our phones over the past few years. Does anyone have thoughts on that? I keep waiting for a big camera manufacturer to attempt what Apple and Google are doing with their tiny little sensors.


----------



## Cryhavoc (Jul 2, 2020)

Fran Decatta said:


> I thought exactly the same ! let's hope that is something more than this, but is already fine



and several other mirrorless camera's.
My bet is it's pixel shift as others have mentioned. Only because not one word has come out about pixel shift.

I think Canon takes it to 11 and gives the shooter the ability to determine how many shifts they want the camera to make.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

mattamaxwell said:


> This is my first comment but I wonder if Canon could be introducing computational photography tricks that we have seen on our phones over the past few years. Does anyone have thoughts on that? I keep waiting for a big camera manufacturer to attempt what Apple and Google are doing with their tiny little sensors.


God I hope not! I’m sure I’ll get told off for being behind the times or traditionalist, or old, or something less kind, but we already have ‘tricks’ like cooking the RAW files to adjust for wild distortion in lenses and clumsy high iso noise reduction that can’t be turned off. I want to be in control of any computation, how can we realize our vision if ‘artificial’ stuff keeps getting put in our way?


----------



## mattamaxwell (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> God I hope not! I’m sure I’ll get told off for being behind the times or traditionalist, or old, or something less kind, but we already have ‘tricks’ like cooking the RAW files to adjust for wild distortion in lenses and clumsy high iso noise reduction that can’t be turned off. I want to be in control of any computation, how can we realize our vision if ‘artificial’ stuff keeps getting put in our way?


I hear you and agree but I am also curious to see what could be on the horizon for the future of photography. IF they introduced something like computational photography, surely they would give you the option to turn on and off. 
Ive been very impressed with what Apple and Google accomplished with their cameras and, as I said before, what could canon accomplish with some of this cutting edge technology?


----------



## SteveC (Jul 2, 2020)

At the risk of beating a freshly dead horse, I can see four dials in Fv mode quite readily. One for ISO, one for aperture, one for shutter speed, and one for exposure compensation. Why have an apparently redundant one for exposure compensation, when you can get the same result twiddling one or more of the other three parameters?

It's because in Fv mode there's a tendency to leave at least one of the other three in auto. So, say, you fix the shutter speed, and let the other two be in auto. But you find yourself with a dark exposure at some point, and rather than override an auto setting, you just crank the exposure comp. You can then set it back to zero and your other settings are unchanged, with aperture and ISO still on auto. This works with any combination of manually set/auto (as long as something remains auto). Yes, technically you could do it with fewer dials...for example some cameras when you're in Av a particular dial controls aperture, and a different dial controls exposure comp, when in Tv that first dial now controls shutter speed, and the second dial is EC, when in M, now suddenly the first dial controls shutter speed and the second dial controls aperture, or is it the other way around--the point being the two dials have different meanings depending on what mode you're in. And ISO is controlled yet somewhere different (hopefully not in a menu!!!) Having four dials that ALWAYS have the same meaning does mean one of the dials will be useless at any given time, but at least you don't have to think about "Now which dial is it that controls EC now? Whoops, never mind, I'm in manual mode, none of them do." or "Hmm, which one controls shutter speed? The answer differs between M and Tv."


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## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

SteveC said:


> At the risk of beating a freshly dead horse, I can see four dials in Fv mode quite readily. One for ISO, one for aperture, one for shutter speed, and one for exposure compensation. Why have an apparently redundant one for exposure compensation, when you can get the same result twiddling one or more of the other three parameters?
> 
> It's because in Fv mode there's a tendency to leave at least one of the other three in auto. So, say, you fix the shutter speed, and let the other two be in auto. But you find yourself with a dark exposure at some point, and rather than override an auto setting, you just crank the exposure comp. You can then set it back to zero and your other settings are unchanged, with aperture and ISO still on auto. This works with any combination of manually set/auto (as long as something remains auto). Yes, technically you could do it with fewer dials...for example some cameras when you're in Av a particular dial controls aperture, and a different dial controls exposure comp, when in Tv that first dial now controls shutter speed, and the second dial is EC, when in M, now suddenly the first dial controls shutter speed and the second dial controls aperture, or is it the other way around--the point being the two dials have different meanings depending on what mode you're in. And ISO is controlled yet somewhere different (hopefully not in a menu!!!) Having four dials that ALWAYS have the same meaning does mean one of the dials will be useless at any given time, but at least you don't have to think about "Now which dial is it that controls EC now? Whoops, never mind, I'm in manual mode, none of them do." or "Hmm, which one controls shutter speed? The answer differs between M and Tv."


I understand the point, I just feel it is overly complicated as in no situation do you need more than three control inputs but generally you only need two. If you are in auto you drop one metric but gain EC, if you are in manual you don’t need EC.

I like the way when I am in P, Av or Tv my back dial becomes EC, easy muscle memory. I also like that when I am in ‘manual’ with auto iso I use the same fingers in practically the same place. I push ‘Set’ with my thumb and move the top front dial. The problem with more dials in more places is it becomes more difficult to use them universally, a top plate mounted EC dial on the left of the camera works great on the M5 with small lenses but on a full sized camera with big lenses your left hand is normally far away from the body, same with ‘control ring’ old fashioned aperture rings, they work great in some situations and really get in the way in others.

Personally I use my right index finger for the shutter button the top dial and the iso button, my right thumb for back dial ‘set’ button and focus joystick. I have seen more dexterous people than me use right index finger for iso and top dial and right middle finger for shutter button, this allows instant control of all four/three metrics instantly. Maybe that is why they don’t mess with 1 series ergonomics much.


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## Richard Anthony (Jul 2, 2020)

I just read on Sony Alpha Rumours that the new R5 is going to have a 5 million dot EVF , and the new Sony A7 is going to a 9.44 million dot EVF , lets see if this is true .


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## highdesertmesa (Jul 2, 2020)

canonnews said:


> diminishing returns are certainly present chasing the high DR title.



I get the fact that having the highest dynamic range isn’t the end-all be-all feature on the wishlist. But there is a lot of room for improvement for the color and contrast in lifted shadow areas. It’s not about how many stops I can lift the shadows, it’s about how close can I get to lifted shadows that look completely natural as if I exposed for them directly. That’s the holy grail of dynamic range as I see it.


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## navastronia (Jul 2, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> I use the R in manual without an issue and I don't even need to use the control ring on the lens to do so. Really not hard at all



Yes it is. The R doesn't handle as well as bodies with a scroll wheel.


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## highdesertmesa (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> No, the point was all manufacturers are so close in high iso because current technology is limited by laws of physics. Until there is a substantial change in technology, a revolutionary change that hasn’t been demoed or patented anywhere, or the laws of physics are negated there is practically little improvement to be had at high iso.
> 
> Demanding a stop or two of improved high iso performance is akin to wanting your next family car to go 1,000 mph, yes there might be a car or two that can go that fast but you wouldn’t want to pay for it and even if you did it isn’t practical.



Have you watched Canon’s video on dual-gain sensor tech and what it can accomplish? It sounds to me like the answer to the current limitations. Video is down on the page a ways:









Could the Canon EOS R5 Receive a Dual Gain Output Sensor?


Let's explain Canon's new Dual Gain Output sensor.




nofilmschool.com


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Have you watched Canon’s video on dual-gain sensor tech and what it can accomplish? It sounds to me like the answer to the current limitations. Video is down on the page a ways:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course I have, are you missing the point of it? It increases the dynamic range at low (base) iso it does nothing for higher iso readout DR. The additional readout is at 5,000 iso and is for better shadow detail when sampled at the same time as the native 800 iso.


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## degos (Jul 2, 2020)

In order to minimise cost, the only supported shooting mode is BULB.

However a Canon-branded digital stopwatch is included in each kit SKU ( not in body-only SKU ).


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## highdesertmesa (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Of course I have, are you missing the point of it? It increases the dynamic range at low (base) iso it does nothing for higher iso readout DR. The additional readout is at 5,000 iso and is for better shadow detail when sampled at the same time as the native 800 iso.



It still works across all ISO ranges, just not as effectively as it does at base. And I would expect Canon has improved it for the R5 versus the C300 III. It may even work differently for stills, we just don’t know yet.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> It still works across all ISO ranges, just not as effectively as it does at base. And I would expect Canon has improved it for the R5 versus the C300 III. It may even work differently for stills, we just don’t know yet.


You are missing the point, it isn’t improving high iso performance it is combining current high iso performance and low iso performance to give a greater range at low iso. If both samples are in the high range you gain nothing.

Sure we don’t know what they are doing, but the area of high iso performance has nudged up against physics barriers and has been pretty constant for some time.


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## Kit. (Jul 2, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Have you watched Canon’s video on dual-gain sensor tech and what it can accomplish?


The only thing dual-gain output sensor accomplishes is great _increase in sensor readout speed_ at the cost of very _small loss of DR_.

Good for reduction of rolling shutter effect in video. Doesn't really matter for stills taken with mechanical shutter.


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## highdesertmesa (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> You are missing the point, it isn’t improving high iso performance it is combining current high iso performance and low iso performance to give a greater range at low iso. If both samples are in the high range you gain nothing.
> 
> Sure we don’t know what they are doing, but the area of high iso performance has nudged up against physics barriers and has been pretty constant for some time.



Dual Gain Output on the C300 III

16 stops of DR at ISO 800 (base)
Effectiveness is lowered at higher ISOs (they mention 14 stops), _but it still is effective/working_









Canon's Dual Gain Output Sensor Explained - Newsshooter


Canon has been receiving a lot of emails and inquiries asking about how their Dual gain Output sensor actually works. So they made a short video to try




www.newsshooter.com







> The DGO sensor produces images optimized for HDR by creating two images. One prioritizes saturation in the highlight areas and the other prioritizes lower noise in the shadows and dark areas. Essentially each photodiode is being read out at two separate gains. This creates two signals for each photodiode which are then blended to produce an image that has both high dynamic range and low levels of noise.
> 
> Canon claims that this new sensor in the C300 Mark III is capable of 16+ stops of dynamic range with reduced noise in the shadows and improved low light performance...
> 
> ...



But this is how it works _now_ and on a _video-only_ camera.

I was just trying to make the point in the original post that Canon is going to greatly improve high ISO capability – either that or they are telling you to go suck it by releasing f/11 lenses. Heck, maybe they are.


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## TM (Jul 2, 2020)

peakartimages said:


> I hope it is a new Dual Gain Output Sensor


Yes!


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## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> I was just trying to make the point in the original post that Canon is going to greatly improve high ISO capability – either that or they are telling you to go suck it by releasing f/11 lenses. Heck, maybe they are.


I was just trying to make the point that at this time there is no consumer grade technology capable of _"greatly improving high ISO performance". _

You keep pointing to something that does not do what you think it does and by design can't work where you say it does work.


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## highdesertmesa (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I was just trying to make the point that at this time there is no consumer grade technology capable of _"greatly improving high ISO performance". _
> 
> You keep pointing to something that does not do what you think it does and by design can't work where you say it does work.



And I’m saying the DGO in one form or another could get us closer, especially if optimized for stills. If you’re looking for hard evidence, maybe a rumor site on a thread about _unknown “surprise” specs _isn’t the best place to be asking someone for it. This still falls under “killing time until the 9th”, lol.


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## highdesertmesa (Jul 2, 2020)

Kit. said:


> The only thing dual-gain output sensor accomplishes is great _increase in sensor readout speed_ at the cost of very _small loss of DR_.
> 
> Good for reduction of rolling shutter effect in video. Doesn't really matter for stills taken with mechanical shutter.



On the C300 III they turn off DGO for faster sensor read. Speed is only half the story (pun).


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## privatebydesign (Jul 2, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> And I’m saying the DGO in one form or another could get us closer, especially if optimized for stills. If you’re looking for hard evidence, maybe a rumor site on a thread about _unknown “surprise” specs _isn’t the best place to be asking someone for it. This still falls under “killing time until the 9th”, lol.


Yes you do keep saying that, but you don't explain how when it fundamentally doesn't do what you keep suggesting it does. 

It's akin to saying _"I want a higher resolution EVF, they have developed a good swivel LCD so maybe they could make it work?"_ or, _"I need 1/8,000 sec shutter speed, they have developed an intervalometer maybe they could make that work?" _

Even if the DGO technology is in the R5 it will not _"greatly improving high ISO performance" _because that isn't what DGO does, and even if Canon do put it in and say it does independent testing will show that in unmolested RAW files it doesn't, because, yet again, that isn't what DGO does.


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## Kit. (Jul 2, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Dual Gain Output on the C300 III
> 
> 16 stops of DR at ISO 800 (base)
> Effectiveness is lowered at higher ISOs (they mention 14 stops), _but it still is effective/working_
> ...


You are missing its point. It is only good for video-like frame rate. It's just a way to speed up a ramp-compare ADC, nothing more.

Instead of reading both dark and light areas with the same slow 16-bit linear ramp-compare ADC, you provide two pictures: one is read with a 4 times faster 14-bit ramp-compare ADC, with posterisation in shadows, and one with a 4 times faster 14-bit ramp-compare ADC specifically to capture the shadows (and to overflow in around midtones). Then you combine those two pictures into one and send it off your sensor to your DIGIC (or whatever).



highdesertmesa said:


> On the C300 III they turn off DGO for faster sensor read. Speed is only half the story (pun).


Actually not.

DGO allows for 4K*2K*60P*16 bits throughput. Roughly 8 Gbps of data from sensor. If you DIGIC (or whatever) is not fast enough to _consume more_ data per second than that, then, at higher frame rates, you just have no use for all the bits DGO could provide.


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## highdesertmesa (Jul 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Yes you do keep saying that, but you don't explain how when it fundamentally doesn't do what you keep suggesting it does.
> 
> It's akin to saying _"I want a higher resolution EVF, they have developed a good swivel LCD so maybe they could make it work?"_ or, _"I need 1/8,000 sec shutter speed, they have developed an intervalometer maybe they could make that work?" _
> 
> Even if the DGO technology is in the R5 it will not _"greatly improving high ISO performance" _because that isn't what DGO does, and even if Canon do put it in and say it does independent testing will show that in unmolested RAW files it doesn't, because, yet again, that isn't what DGO does.



It’s exactly what it does according to all the reference links provided. I think we’re taking past each other with no hope of consensus. Let’s revisit on the 9th.


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## joestopper (Jul 2, 2020)

mattamaxwell said:


> This is my first comment but I wonder if Canon could be introducing computational photography tricks that we have seen on our phones over the past few years. Does anyone have thoughts on that? I keep waiting for a big camera manufacturer to attempt what Apple and Google are doing with their tiny little sensors.



More computational photography in DSLR/DSLM would be welcome. But traditionally manufacturers of DSLR/DSLM have been very conservative in that aspect while mainly focusing on hardware/optics etc and not so much on SW. CP seems the domain of smart phone manufacturers. There is a good reason for it: Smart phones have far more computing power and main memory required by CP.


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## scyrene (Jul 2, 2020)

mattamaxwell said:


> This is my first comment but I wonder if Canon could be introducing computational photography tricks that we have seen on our phones over the past few years. Does anyone have thoughts on that? I keep waiting for a big camera manufacturer to attempt what Apple and Google are doing with their tiny little sensors.



I think it will creep in a little, gradually, but two important factors mitigating against it are - phones have much greater computer power, and there was a strong incentive to introduce it into phones to get around the limitations of tiny sensors and lenses.


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## jdavidse (Jul 3, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> I had to go research this one, and holy crap I can't believe it, they don't have it! Simple feature that EVERYONE ELSE HAS. And I'm starting to remember why I grew to hate Canon over the years. I hope the R5 is their redemption.



It's truly baffling why it didn't appear 7 years ago. You get the feeling that some engineer at Canon just really hates a useful spot metering mode...


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## KeithBreazeal (Jul 3, 2020)

Vector Scope, digital zoom, focus stacking, star tracker, audio annotation, AI proper framing, and ISO 25. (pink version only)


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## clbayley (Jul 3, 2020)

What if it's not the camera itself? Photographers need a new version of DPP with a modern user interface!


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## tpatana (Jul 3, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I understand the point, I just feel it is overly complicated as in no situation do you need more than three control inputs but generally you only need two. If you are in auto you drop one metric but gain EC, if you are in manual you don’t need EC.
> 
> I like the way when I am in P, Av or Tv my back dial becomes EC, easy muscle memory. I also like that when I am in ‘manual’ with auto iso I use the same fingers in practically the same place. I push ‘Set’ with my thumb and move the top front dial. The problem with more dials in more places is it becomes more difficult to use them universally, a top plate mounted EC dial on the left of the camera works great on the M5 with small lenses but on a full sized camera with big lenses your left hand is normally far away from the body, same with ‘control ring’ old fashioned aperture rings, they work great in some situations and really get in the way in others.
> 
> Personally I use my right index finger for the shutter button the top dial and the iso button, my right thumb for back dial ‘set’ button and focus joystick. I have seen more dexterous people than me use right index finger for iso and top dial and right middle finger for shutter button, this allows instant control of all four/three metrics instantly. Maybe that is why they don’t mess with 1 series ergonomics much.



Funny enough, I can use both my bodies (5D4, 1DX1) in pitch black without any problems. I know all buttons where they are and what they do. (hence I kinda mock the people who keep asking for illuminated button, like just learn the damn buttons, there's not that many of them).

But, I don't know where EC is on either of the bodies. I _think_ on 1DX is shared on the top with ISO. On 5D4 I have no clue, I'd guess it's one of the back panel top-right corner buttons.

So that kinda tells my feeling that we don't need more than 3 wheels.


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## SecureGSM (Jul 3, 2020)

Richard Anthony said:


> I just read on Sony Alpha Rumours that the new R5 is going to have a 5 million dot EVF , and the new Sony A7 is going to a 9.44 million dot EVF , lets see if this is true .


And also 2m long USB cable instead of 1m long one to boot.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 3, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> Video is the last frontier, and mirrorless is better for video
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently yes, but it's a strange feature to artificially withhold from "lower-end" cameras.


I've never found spot linked metering to be helpful for anything. I don't understand why so many people think it's a big deal. i must be missing something because it seems like a teriible way to meter a scene to me and will probably cause a lot more problems than it will solve.


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## Aussie shooter (Jul 3, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I've never found spot linked metering to be helpful for anything. I don't understand why so many people think it's a big deal. i must be missing something because it seems like a teriible way to meter a scene to me nad will probably cause a lot more problems than it will solve.


Shoot wildlife. You will realise very quickly how good it is. And yes. Sometimes it means you blow the entire sky out. But often that is what is needed to expose the subject properly


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 3, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Shoot wildlife. You will realise very quickly how good it is. And yes. Sometimes it means you blow the entire sky out. But often that is what is needed to expose the subject properly


I do shoot wildlife and I still think it's pointless. the second your spot AF point slips off of whatever you are trying to meter the exposure is shot. Guaranteed to happen at the worst possible time because that's just the way things go.


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## Mr Majestyk (Jul 3, 2020)

On my SOny I use highlight metering so they are always protected and boost shadows as needed. Hoewver with highlight metering you add in about 07-1.3EV compensation while you're shooting so shadows anre clean when pushed. Canon needs highlight metering IMO and much more useful these days than AF point linked spot metering. With the histogram in the EVF you can adjust exposure on the fly in real time.


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## Aussie shooter (Jul 3, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I do shoot wildlife and I still think it's pointless. the second your spot AF point slips off of whatever you are trying to meter the exposure is shot. Guaranteed to happen at the worst possible time because that's just the way things go.


Yes. But shooting a a dark bird etc against a bright background and if you use evaluative than your subject is blacked out. TBH I mostly use centre weighted average as the best compromise but when I really need to nail the subject then spot metering it is


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## tpatana (Jul 3, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I've never found spot linked metering to be helpful for anything. I don't understand why so many people think it's a big deal. i must be missing something because it seems like a teriible way to meter a scene to me and will probably cause a lot more problems than it will solve.



Fashion show with semi-random spot lights.


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## CvH (Jul 3, 2020)

SteveC said:


> At the risk of beating a freshly dead horse, I can see four dials in Fv mode quite readily. One for ISO, one for aperture, one for shutter speed, and one for exposure compensation. Why have an apparently redundant one for exposure compensation, when you can get the same result twiddling one or more of the other three parameters?
> 
> It's because in Fv mode there's a tendency to leave at least one of the other three in auto. So, say, you fix the shutter speed, and let the other two be in auto. But you find yourself with a dark exposure at some point, and rather than override an auto setting, you just crank the exposure comp. You can then set it back to zero and your other settings are unchanged, with aperture and ISO still on auto. This works with any combination of manually set/auto (as long as something remains auto). Yes, technically you could do it with fewer dials...for example some cameras when you're in Av a particular dial controls aperture, and a different dial controls exposure comp, when in Tv that first dial now controls shutter speed, and the second dial is EC, when in M, now suddenly the first dial controls shutter speed and the second dial controls aperture, or is it the other way around--the point being the two dials have different meanings depending on what mode you're in. And ISO is controlled yet somewhere different (hopefully not in a menu!!!) Having four dials that ALWAYS have the same meaning does mean one of the dials will be useless at any given time, but at least you don't have to think about "Now which dial is it that controls EC now? Whoops, never mind, I'm in manual mode, none of them do." or "Hmm, which one controls shutter speed? The answer differs between M and Tv."



Agree and this also applies to Manual mode hence the 4th dial.


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## SteveC (Jul 3, 2020)

Chz said:


> Agree and this also applies to Manual mode hence the 4th dial.



The way I see it EC is basically an ad-hoc override of other settings--ones that are left on Auto. Because if you change one of the things that is in auto, it has to be put back on auto without hosing the things you did set, so the quick "set everything to auto" button isn't the one to use. But it's easy enough to just use EC then recenter it when you're done with it.


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## tpatana (Jul 3, 2020)

Chz said:


> Agree and this also applies to Manual mode hence the 4th dial.



What applies to manual mode? The four-cornered triangle?


----------



## canonnews (Jul 3, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> I get the fact that having the highest dynamic range isn’t the end-all be-all feature on the wishlist. But there is a lot of room for improvement for the color and contrast in lifted shadow areas. It’s not about how many stops I can lift the shadows, it’s about how close can I get to lifted shadows that look completely natural as if I exposed for them directly. That’s the holy grail of dynamic range as I see it.


yeah that's pretty much impossible. there simply isn't enough information in the shadows and never will be. ever. unless they go to photon counting.

Just the nature of it, the shadows without a tone curve applied have very little analog signal, that is translated into very small number of bits of information after conversion. when you raise that, you are not gaining precision. what you are asking for is to gain precision during a shadow lift.

There is a way to do what you want that most photographers still try to do with wide DR scenes. it's called bracketing


----------



## canonnews (Jul 3, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Have you watched Canon’s video on dual-gain sensor tech and what it can accomplish? It sounds to me like the answer to the current limitations. Video is down on the page a ways:
> 
> http://[URL][URL]https://nofilmschool.com/could-canon-eos-r5-receive-dual-gain-output-sensor[/URL][/URL]


it's possible they have some issues with that such as parallax that has to be software corrected, and bokeh may look kind of weird
tricks they can pull on video are different than tricks they can pull on stills. if you played around with Canon's dual pixel RAW format, you'll see where the two raws don't exactly always align. With video and things in motion, this is less of a problem IMO.


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## CvH (Jul 3, 2020)

tpatana said:


> What applies to manual mode? The four-cornered triangle?



Exposure compensation


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## CvH (Jul 3, 2020)

SteveC said:


> The way I see it EC is basically an ad-hoc override of other settings--ones that are left on Auto. Because if you change one of the things that is in auto, it has to be put back on auto without hosing the things you did set, so the quick "set everything to auto" button isn't the one to use. But it's easy enough to just use EC then recenter it when you're done with it.



That is exactly my use case!


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 3, 2020)

tpatana said:


> Fashion show with semi-random spot lights.


I don't think I'd go that direction but if you say it works I'll take your word for it since that's not something I do. I've experimented with spot linked metering photographing in dark music venues and did not care for the results. I'd prefer to have more consistent exposures and then sort the rest out in post.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 3, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Yes. But shooting a a dark bird etc against a bright background and if you use evaluative than your subject is blacked out. TBH I mostly use centre weighted average as the best compromise but when I really need to nail the subject then spot metering it is


I find Canon's evaluative metering very effective and, with a little help from exposure compensation, it gets the job done for me most of the time. I need a compelling reason to switch to another metering mode.


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## tpatana (Jul 3, 2020)

Chz said:


> Exposure compensation



You understand that in manual mode there is no exposure compensation?


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## tpatana (Jul 3, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I don't think I'd go that direction but if you say it works I'll take your word for it since that's not something I do. I've experimented with spot linked metering photographing in dark music venues and did not care for the results. I'd prefer to have more consistent exposures and then sort the rest out in post.



I've done both, using fixed manual settings and hope it works, or try let the camera guess the exposure (I've shot maybe ~50 show total, so not pro but not newbie either).

My bodies are 5D4 (not linked to focus) and 1DX (yes linked to focus). 1DX does clearly better job when letting the camera deal with the exposure, and that's due to the focus point linked exposure. 5D4 you get much more under/over exposures. However, both cameras you get more consistent results just finding good compromise manual settings. But I can see the benefit of the 1DX metering clearly. 

Often best is actually if they let me strobe and then I can set manual setting to -1EV on background, and strobe to +0EV on the model and let camera ETTL deal with the flash power. Especially on that the 1DX metering is much better, 5D4 again often over/under exposures. Plus 1DX tracking is better, so I don't mind losing 1/3 on pixels when the picture looks better overall.

Also if the runway is long and you're strobing, it becomes more important to meter correctly as using fixed settings is often difficult. (some places you have two presets, one for close and one for far and swap while the model walks (or bring two bodies and keep switching)).

I would prefer all my cameras did that, and I'm hoping R5 does it too since I'm planning to buy one.


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## CvH (Jul 3, 2020)

tpatana said:


> You understand that in manual mode there is no exposure compensation?



Do you have the EOS R? Yes you can.


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## sobrien (Jul 3, 2020)

tpatana said:


> You understand that in manual mode there is no exposure compensation?



Of course he/she does.

He/she also understands that there is if you set ISO to auto.

And he/she understands that Fv mode is potentially the only mode you will ever need - the clue is in the name, flexible - so having a dial for EC would make sense. The R5 is giving us four dials (including lens control ring) so let’s see if the have figured out a way to make that work.

The problem is that you’d need a fifth dial to select between variables for the purpose of resetting to auto (which is the key functionality of Fv mode). Actually, now that I think about it, that’s where holding “set” and moving the top dial might come into play. You could use the same button to do the resetting even. That could work, I think.


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## tpatana (Jul 3, 2020)

Chz said:


> Do you have the EOS R? Yes you can.



I don't, so please explain to me.

Let's use example, I want to shoot manual with following settings:

SS: 1/400
F4.0
ISO400

In this example, what would the EOS R exposure compensation do?


----------



## CvH (Jul 3, 2020)

tpatana said:


> I don't, so please explain to me.
> 
> Let's use example, I want to shoot manual with following settings:
> 
> ...



_My use case is slightly different.

In Manual mode with ISO set to Auto. I assigned exposure compensation to the Lens Control Ring. I use the the LCR to fine tune exposure without have to change the exposure triangle settings (Aperture/Shutterspeed/ISO). 

I am aware that the ISO will change but this is much faster then fiddle with the ISO setting._


----------



## CvH (Jul 3, 2020)

sobrien said:


> Of course he/she does.
> 
> He/she also understands that there is if you set ISO to auto.
> 
> ...



Thanks! I find it’s quicker in Manual mode then Fv as 1 dial to adjust aperture, 1 for shutter speed and the Len Control Ring for exposure compensation .

BTW, my name is Chanh and I am a he.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 3, 2020)

tpatana said:


> But, I don't know where EC is on either of the bodies. I _think_ on 1DX is shared on the top with ISO. On 5D4 I have no clue, I'd guess it's one of the back panel top-right corner buttons.


Hasn't it been directly on the back dial for all time since the film era?


----------



## Kit. (Jul 3, 2020)

sobrien said:


> And he/she understands that Fv mode is potentially the only mode you will ever need - the clue is in the name, flexible - so having a dial for EC would make sense. The R5 is giving us four dials (including lens control ring) so let’s see if the have figured out a way to make that work.
> 
> The problem is that you’d need a fifth dial to select between variables for the purpose of resetting to auto (which is the key functionality of Fv mode). Actually, now that I think about it, that’s where holding “set” and moving the top dial might come into play. You could use the same button to do the resetting even. That could work, I think.


Inconvenient.

It could be that just moving a dial while holding the "set" button resets the dial's value to "auto". Then, if you move the "autoed" dial withouth pressing the "set" button, it starts from the current autoselected value.


----------



## tron (Jul 3, 2020)

An adaptor to use Nikon DSLR lenses in full AF/AE mode


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## CvH (Jul 3, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Inconvenient.
> 
> It could be that just moving a dial while holding the "set" button resets the dial's value to "auto". Then, if you move the "autoed" dial withouth pressing the "set" button, it starts from the current autoselected value.



Have you tested this? It doesn't work on my R. I get the 'quick' menu as soon as I pressed the Set button.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 3, 2020)

Chz said:


> Have you tested this? It doesn't work on my R. I get the 'quick' menu as soon as I pressed the Set button.


It's a proposal.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 3, 2020)

tron said:


> An adaptor to use Nikon DSLR lenses in full AF/AE mode


Screwdriver AF lenses?


----------



## sobrien (Jul 3, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Inconvenient.
> 
> It could be that just moving a dial while holding the "set" button resets the dial's value to "auto". Then, if you move the "autoed" dial withouth pressing the "set" button, it starts from the current autoselected value.



Yes, that is much better. That’s actually a really good suggestion IMO.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 3, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I find Canon's evaluative metering very effective and, with a little help from exposure compensation, it gets the job done for me most of the time. I need a compelling reason to switch to another metering mode.


I find the exact opposite. I almost never use evaluative metering for wildlife. No problems for landscapes etc but never wildlife. As for exposure compensation it will help but it is not very helpful when everything happens within a second or two and you dont know beforehand where that action is going to happen. You simply dont have time to adjust the exposure compensation so the metering has to be reliable


----------



## tron (Jul 3, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Screwdriver AF lenses?


E series Nikon lenses.


----------



## tron (Jul 3, 2020)

Chz said:


> _My use case is slightly different.
> 
> In Manual mode with ISO set to Auto. I assigned exposure compensation to the Lens Control Ring. I use the the LCR to fine tune exposure without have to change the exposure triangle settings (Aperture/Shutterspeed/ISO).
> 
> I am aware that the ISO will change but this is much faster then fiddle with the ISO setting._


Alternatively what I do for quick Exp Comp change when also having Manual Moed with Auto ISO in DSLR series is to assign it to the SET button. It changes by pressing the button and turning the main dial. Very fast and it works on EOS 5DIV, 5Ds(R), 7DII, 90D, EOS R...


----------



## highdesertmesa (Jul 3, 2020)

canonnews said:


> yeah that's pretty much impossible. there simply isn't enough information in the shadows and never will be. ever. unless they go to photon counting.
> 
> Just the nature of it, the shadows without a tone curve applied have very little analog signal, that is translated into very small number of bits of information after conversion. when you raise that, you are not gaining precision. what you are asking for is to gain precision during a shadow lift.
> 
> There is a way to do what you want that most photographers still try to do with wide DR scenes. it's called bracketing



Single-shot RAW with the results that approach multi-shot bracketing is the holy grail of dynamic range. DGO is essentially trying to do that by merging two different gains — it’s even explained as a single-shot HDR of sorts. But if they can’t expand DGO to work for traditional stills outside of a very narrow shutter speed and ISO window, maybe Canon can finally do what the iPhone has been doing for a while now by using AI to combine multiple shots both to freeze action/sharpness and to increase DR. Not sure why it’s taken so long for this to move to more serious cameras and be used to make single RAWs along with saving the individual RAWs in a stack.


----------



## gruhl28 (Jul 3, 2020)

tpatana said:


> I don't, so please explain to me.
> 
> Let's use example, I want to shoot manual with following settings:
> 
> ...


Exposure comp in Manual is for Auto ISO.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 3, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> I find the exact opposite. I almost never use evaluative metering for wildlife. No problems for landscapes etc but never wildlife. As for exposure compensation it will help but it is not very helpful when everything happens within a second or two and you dont know beforehand where that action is going to happen. You simply dont have time to adjust the exposure compensation so the metering has to be reliable


Different strokes for different folks I guess. I cant tolerate blown highlights and I’m pretty good at teasing detail out of the shadows so my way is best for me. Fortunately there no “right way” so we can agree to disagree.


----------



## degos (Jul 3, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I do shoot wildlife and I still think it's pointless. the second your spot AF point slips off of whatever you are trying to meter the exposure is shot.



Well yes if you're using some automatic mode and haven't pressed exposure lock or whatever it's called that puts the asterisk in the viewfinder.

But for manual exposure, spot metering is the way to do it. Spot on target of known tone, meter, set exposure and you're done. For example at airshows I'll use the grass or a grey hangar to set the exposure for each pass.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 3, 2020)

degos said:


> Well yes if you're using some automatic mode and haven't pressed exposure lock or whatever it's called that puts the asterisk in the viewfinder.
> 
> But for manual exposure, spot metering is the way to do it. Spot on target of known tone, meter, set exposure and you're done. For example at airshows I'll use the grass or a grey hangar to set the exposure for each pass.


You might as well us an incident light meter. You are essentially by-passing decades of improvement in metering technology and setting yourself up for blown highlights IMO. Like I just said. Everyone can chose their own path but in my opinion that's a rocky road to go down. The 1DX's in evaluative metering mode are viewing the entire scene, making a mind-boggling number of calculation per second, weighting the subject vs the background and determining an optimum exposre. If i disagree with the EM's interpretation of the scene, based on camera feedback, i can make an adjustment via exposure comp. Reading a gray card is primitive in comparison but if it's working for you than great.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 3, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Single-shot RAW with the results that approach multi-shot bracketing is the holy grail of dynamic range.


That would require lowering base ISO.



highdesertmesa said:


> DGO is essentially trying to do that by merging two different gains


It's not. It's trying to achieve _stills-like DR_ for video.



highdesertmesa said:


> maybe Canon can finally do what the iPhone has been doing for a while now by using AI to combine multiple shots both to freeze action/sharpness and to increase DR. Not sure why it’s taken so long for this to move to more serious cameras and be used to make single RAWs along with saving the individual RAWs in a stack.


Maybe because at the moment, those AI produced iPhone pictures look like crap.


----------



## tpatana (Jul 3, 2020)

Chz said:


> _My use case is slightly different.
> 
> In Manual mode with ISO set to Auto. I assigned exposure compensation to the Lens Control Ring. I use the the LCR to fine tune exposure without have to change the exposure triangle settings (Aperture/Shutterspeed/ISO).
> 
> I am aware that the ISO will change but this is much faster then fiddle with the ISO setting._



Ok, so you admit it's not manual mode, and you still only need 3 controls.

You get exactly same effect if you dial ISO by one stop as you dial EC by one stop. The inconvenience of coming from Auto-iso to manual iso sounds much less hassle than having 4 dials.

I'm still failing to see why there should be 4 dials.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 3, 2020)

tpatana said:


> Ok, so you admit it's not manual mode, and you still only need 3 controls.
> 
> You get exactly same effect if you dial ISO by one stop as you dial EC by one stop. The inconvenience of coming from Auto-iso to manual iso sounds much less hassle than having 4 dials.
> 
> I'm still failing to see why there should be 4 dials.


Exactly what I kept saying but I got bored....


----------



## Franklyok (Jul 4, 2020)

peakartimages said:


> I hope it is a new Dual Gain Output Sensor



It better be it, 16+ stops DR would be available then...


----------



## canonnews (Jul 4, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Single-shot RAW with the results that approach multi-shot bracketing is the holy grail of dynamic range. DGO is essentially trying to do that by merging two different gains — it’s even explained as a single-shot HDR of sorts.


there's no free lunch. you can play around with it already if you have a 5D Mark IV or a EOS R - simply use dual pixel RAW. and use rawdigger to extract both images and merge them. you can see it's not a perfect alignment.

Anyways, I don't know .. maybe canon's auto correcting in DIGIC - who knows.


----------



## canonnews (Jul 4, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> Apparently yes, but it's a strange feature to artificially withhold from "lower-end" cameras.


originally i suspect it was due to the fact of the difference segmented AE meters in DSLR's.


----------



## CanonOregon (Jul 4, 2020)

What I'd love that to be is ' Eye Controlled Focus', like on the EOS 3 film camera. I LOVED that feature- you look and it focuses there!


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## CanonOregon (Jul 4, 2020)

dichterDichter said:


> i really hope not to read "a.i." in every second sentence which is just a bullshit-bingo trend right now. maybe they could bring back eye-controlled focuspoint ..


Loved it on my EOS 3!


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## miketcool (Jul 4, 2020)

What if one of the the surprises is how the camera handles heat dissipation. You remove the battery department door and the battery grip interfaces with vents in a way that allows the lower unit to circulate air with fans. There has to be some clever way to get cool that 8K sensor.


----------



## sagtor (Jul 4, 2020)

How are there no feckin leaks, I can't get over it. Only a few days to go and there still is zero legit info on the R6. Amazing.


----------



## CvH (Jul 4, 2020)

tpatana said:


> Ok, so you admit it's not manual mode, and you still only need 3 controls.
> 
> You get exactly same effect if you dial ISO by one stop as you dial EC by one stop. The inconvenience of coming from Auto-iso to manual iso sounds much less hassle than having 4 dials.
> 
> I'm still failing to see why there should be 4 dials.



Are you telling me that when setting the mode dial to Manual isn't constituted the camera in manual mode?

You may find it inconvenient but others will find it useful. 

If you prefer to change the ISO then that's fine if that works for you. It doesn't mean that if you don't have a use case or need then Canon shouldn't offers that feature. To me that's narrow mind. It's like some people don't need or like to use the articulate s screen so the R5 shouldn't have it.


----------



## brad-man (Jul 4, 2020)

miketcool said:


> What if one of the the surprises is how the camera handles heat dissipation. You remove the battery department door and the battery grip interfaces with vents in a way that allows the lower unit to circulate air with fans. There has to be some clever way to get cool that 8K sensor.


Yup. This bolts on to the battery grip. Harry will explain it latter...


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 4, 2020)

Chz said:


> Are you telling me that when setting the mode dial to Manual isn't constituted the camera in manual mode?
> 
> You may find it inconvenient but others will find it useful.
> 
> If you prefer to change the ISO then that's fine if that works for you. It doesn't mean that if you don't have a use case or need then Canon shouldn't offers that feature. To me that's narrow mind. It's like some people don't need or like to use the articulate s screen so the R5 shouldn't have it.


‘Manual‘ with auto iso is not manual mode as you are relying on the camera auto exposure to set the EV. Why is that so hard to understand?

To call it ’manual’ when the camera is setting one parameter is a misnomer, how can manual mode without auto iso and manual mode with auto iso be called the same thing? Besides the point is still valid, if you are in manual with auto iso you are, by definition not setting the iso, the camera is, so you don’t need a dial for it! But you would need one for EC. As I have said a lot, there are three metrics combined to make an exposure, ergo you only possibly need three dials to fully control everything in any mode, if you leave one to the camera you drop that one but need EC instead.


----------



## CvH (Jul 4, 2020)

tron said:


> Alternatively what I do for quick Exp Comp change when also having Manual Moed with Auto ISO in DSLR series is to assign it to the SET button. It changes by pressing the button and turning the main dial. Very fast and it works on EOS 5DIV, 5Ds(R), 7DII, 90D, EOS R...



Good suggestion! I am doing that on my 5D3. I can hold the Set button and turn the Multifunction dial to move the ISO from Auto but I cannot move it back to Auto. Not sure if the 5D4 can do it?

On the R I can press the M-Fn buttin then turn the top dial to change ISO. In away the 4th button.

I have assigned the ISO to the 'Bar' button but as everyone knows, the touch sensitivity isn't reliable.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 4, 2020)

tron said:


> Alternatively what I do for quick Exp Comp change when also having Manual Moed with Auto ISO in DSLR series is to assign it to the SET button. It changes by pressing the button and turning the main dial. Very fast and it works on EOS 5DIV, 5Ds(R), 7DII, 90D, EOS R...


As do the 1 series.

It’s funny I have been doing that so long I assumed everybody did it, manual mode with auto iso (what a misnomer) can be a great addition to the other exposure modes but instant access to the EC is important.


----------



## CvH (Jul 4, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> ‘Manual‘ with auto iso is not manual mode as you are relying on the camera auto exposure to set the EV. Why is that so hard to understand?
> 
> To call it ’manual’ when the camera is setting one parameter is a misnomer, how can manual mode without auto iso and manual mode with auto iso be called the same thing? Besides the point is still valid, if you are in manual with auto iso you are, by definition not setting the iso, the camera is, so you don’t need a dial for it! But you would need one for EC. As I have said a lot, there are three metrics combined to make an exposure, ergo you only possibly need three dials to fully control everything in any mode, if you leave one to the camera you drop that one but need EC instead.



I wonder why Canon and other manufacturers called that M on their mode dial? Regardless you want to continue arguing the M definition. You may not need or want the 4th dial. It does not mean that Canon shouldn't offer it!

I prefer the same function assigned to the same dial and button so I don't need to think when switching between modes. 

The difference between changing the iso as opposed to Auto and use exposure compensation is I am still able to let the metering what I am shooting and can quickly fine tune the exposure regardless which mode I am in as long as the iso is in Auto. That's muscle memory

Btw, I have never argued about the exposure triangles.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 4, 2020)

Chz said:


> I wonder why Canon and other manufacturers called that M on their mode dial? Regardless you want to continue arguing the M definition. You may not need or want the 4th dial. It does not mean that Canon shouldn't offer it!
> 
> I prefer the same function assigned to the same dial and button so I don't need to think when switching between modes.
> 
> ...


I wonder that too. You didn’t answer my question though, if M and M mode with auto iso are not the same thing why should they both be called manual? Or put another way, if the camera is setting one of the three metrics for EV how is that manual?

But wether you agree on the definition of manual is irrelevant, in your definition (with auto iso) you still only need three dials, one for aperture, ss, and EC, in my definition (actual manual) you need three dials, one for aperture, ss and iso. There is no combination of exposure modes where you need four dials so from an ergonomics point of view it is redundant and inefficient. Even with only two dials changing any of the four metrics can be done effortlessly with one hand and a couple of digits, maybe that’s why they do it like that?


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 4, 2020)

canonnews said:


> there's no free lunch. you can play around with it already if you have a 5D Mark IV or a EOS R - simply use dual pixel RAW. and use rawdigger to extract both images and merge them. you can see it's not a perfect alignment.
> 
> Anyways, I don't know .. maybe canon's auto correcting in DIGIC - who knows.


Dual pixel RAW and DGO work in completely different ways. DGO takes two readings from the same pixel, DP-RAW takes a reading from each sub pixel, the difference might seem small but it is fundamentally different. There is no possibility for any alignment issues or ‘refocusing‘ in post with DGO.


----------



## degos (Jul 4, 2020)

Chz said:


> I wonder why Canon and other manufacturers called that M on their mode dial?



Because it was pure Manual mode for 30 years of the EF system until Canon copied AutoISO for some unfathomable reason. You still have to juggle three parameters so what's the advantage?


----------



## tpatana (Jul 4, 2020)

Chz said:


> I wonder why Canon and other manufacturers called that M on their mode dial?



Porsche recently released electric vehicle with "Turbo" on the name. I give you $100 if you find turbo (other than name) on that vehicle.


----------



## Joules (Jul 4, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Dual pixel RAW and DGO work in completely different ways. DGO takes two readings from the same pixel, DP-RAW takes a reading from each sub pixel, the difference might seem small but it is fundamentally different. There is no possibility for any alignment issues or ‘refocusing‘ in post with DGO.


There actually appears to be conflicting information on how DGO works from Canon. TDP has a quote from Canon's last digital event about it, that suggests to me the two image halfes are involved. Which also seemingly contradicts their other marketing. And of course, he only mentions that there are no temporal artifacts, but stay quiet about those from parallax.

"How does it do that? Each pixel on the sensor is split into two different diodes. Those diodes are always taking two frames of the exact same image. Now for Dual Pixel autofocus, it's using those two frames for phase detection. However, the Canon engineers realized that they can use those two different frames and value them at different gains in order to expand the dynamic range. And so what is happening here is that off of diode A you have one image that is low gain and low noise. Off of diode B you're getting a frame that is of higher gain, but it satisfies the pixel's need for saturation. So, these two separate frames that are of the same image of the exact same point in time but at two separate gains are combined and then dumped out of the sensor. Because these frames are of the exact same point in time and of the exact same image, there is absolutely zero temporal artifacting happening in this" (Source) 

Do you have a better source for how Canon has pulled off DGO? I would be very interested, as the marketing I've seen seems somewhat lacking as far as proper explanations go.


----------



## koenkooi (Jul 4, 2020)

Joules said:


> There actually appears to be conflicting information on how DGO works from Canon. TDP has a quote from Canon's last digital event about it, that suggests to me the two image halfes are involved. Which also seemingly contradicts their other marketing. And of course, he only mentions that there are no temporal artifacts, but stay quiet about those from parallax.
> 
> "How does it do that? Each pixel on the sensor is split into two different diodes. Those diodes are always taking two frames of the exact same image. Now for Dual Pixel autofocus, it's using those two frames for phase detection. However, the Canon engineers realized that they can use those two different frames and value them at different gains in order to expand the dynamic range. And so what is happening here is that off of diode A you have one image that is low gain and low noise. Off of diode B you're getting a frame that is of higher gain, but it satisfies the pixel's need for saturation. So, these two separate frames that are of the same image of the exact same point in time but at two separate gains are combined and then dumped out of the sensor. Because these frames are of the exact same point in time and of the exact same image, there is absolutely zero temporal artifacting happening in this" (Source)
> 
> Do you have a better source for how Canon has pulled off DGO? I would be very interested, as the marketing I've seen seems somewhat lacking as far as proper explanations go.



Here's the follow up from Canon. Skip to about 0:50 to hear him say "Apart from 'dual' in the name DGO is very separate from our venerable DPAF".


----------



## Joules (Jul 4, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Here's the follow up from Canon. Skip to about 0:50 to hear him say "Apart from 'dual' in the name DGO is very separate from our venerable DPAF".


I find that clarification lacking though.

He claims to give a more technical insight, but actually goes into less detail compared to his previous statement that I quoted.

Of course it's possible that the existence of the follow up is an indirect way for Canon to say "we have put out false information in the past". But I would like to see a more technical description of how it actually works. Do they really amplydy each diode twice? So, both diodes per pixel, amplify each twice, combine the two high amp values, combine the two low amp values and then merge those two for the HDR output? Or is it different? I am mostly just curious. But if it does indeed come with parallax artifacts due to amplifying the two halves differently, I can't see it coming to stills.


----------



## Canon-Chas (Jul 4, 2020)

Blackout free viewfinder @20fps in silent mode shooting RAW would be nice


----------



## CvH (Jul 4, 2020)

degos said:


> Because it was pure Manual mode for 30 years of the EF system until Canon copied AutoISO for some unfathomable reason. You still have to juggle three parameters so what's the advantage?



Exposure compensation as I per my multiple replies to tpatana and PrivatebyDesign.


----------



## CvH (Jul 4, 2020)

tpatana said:


> Porsche recently released electric vehicle with "Turbo" on the name. I give you $100 if you find turbo (other than name) on that vehicle.



Lol. I am wasting my time here. have a nice day.


----------



## CvH (Jul 4, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I wonder that too. You didn’t answer my question though, if M and M mode with auto iso are not the same thing why should they both be called manual? Or put another way, if the camera is setting one of the three metrics for EV how is that manual?
> 
> But wether you agree on the definition of manual is irrelevant, in your definition (with auto iso) you still only need three dials, one for aperture, ss, and EC, in my definition (actual manual) you need three dials, one for aperture, ss and iso. There is no combination of exposure modes where you need four dials so from an ergonomics point of view it is redundant and inefficient. Even with only two dials changing any of the four metrics can be done effortlessly with one hand and a couple of digits, maybe that’s why they do it like that?



And if it isn’t then why Canon put the M on the mode dial??? The M has always been Manual since the film day as Degios said. Adding Auto ISO doesn’t mean the M is no longer the case. You still have independent aperture and shutter speed adjustments.

Again, you are missing the point or just ignored my use case. I prefer to have dedicated dial for each of the triangle (Aperture/ShutterSpeed/ISO). Plus 1 for exposure compensation. I set the mode dial to M (Look up the user manual for definition if you like) and ISO to Auto. I set my preferred Shutter speed and Aperture. it’s much quicker for me to fine tune the exposure by turning the exposure compensation dial. You may prefer to change the ISO setting from Auto but first you need to check what is the ‘current’ ISO value then pump it up and down to get the exposure you want. Then you have to move the ISO back to Auto. Where I simply turn the exposure compensation up or down for the shot then turn it back to the ‘0’ on the metering indicator.


----------



## tss68nl (Jul 4, 2020)

Having the camera in manual mode, and setting ISO to auto only has very few use cases.

You will have to manually control the exposure with Exposure Compensation to keep it from blowing out highlights when it cannot go lower than 100 (50) ISO. It means the auto ISO only helps you if you deliberately keep your ISO around a much higher number, absolutely don't want another shutter speed, absolutely need to keep background blur, ánd don't have vastly changing conditions.

For most pictures I find dynamic range and noise much more important than background blur or shutter speed. So I'd use Av or Tv. It's such a small area of use cases that ISO is actually not important.


----------



## sobrien (Jul 4, 2020)

degos said:


> Because it was pure Manual mode for 30 years of the EF system until Canon copied AutoISO for some unfathomable reason. You still have to juggle three parameters so what's the advantage?



Advantages and uses for M with auto ISO are pretty obvious. You’re either b


Chz said:


> And if it isn’t then why Canon put the M on the mode dial??? The M has always been Manual since the film day as Degios said. Adding Auto ISO doesn’t mean the M is no longer the case. You still have independent aperture and shutter speed adjustments.
> 
> Again, you are missing the point or just ignored my use case. I prefer to have dedicated dial for each of the triangle (Aperture/ShutterSpeed/ISO). Plus 1 for exposure compensation. I set the mode dial to M (Look up the user manual for definition if you like) and ISO to Auto. I set my preferred Shutter speed and Aperture. it’s much quicker for me to fine tune the exposure by turning the exposure compensation dial. You may prefer to change the ISO setting from Auto but first you need to check what is the ‘current’ ISO value then pump it up and down to get the exposure you want. Then you have to move the ISO back to Auto. Where I simply turn the exposure compensation up or down for the shot then turn it back to the ‘0’ on the metering indicator.



The other very obvious point is using auto allows for changing light conditions. EC then allows you to offset against that, e.g in very high contrast situations where you want to retain highlights you might dial a n -1, or in other situations you might dial in + 1 for a proper ETRR. M with auto ISO is undeniably useful and I’m surprised that anyone would try to argue otherwise.


----------



## TominNJ (Jul 4, 2020)

Brownie mode:

fixed focus 50mm lens

choice of 2 apertures for cloudy or bright

uses 12 mp cards camera takes 1 mp images so maximum 12 pictures then card is locked and you wait a week to see the images


----------



## sobrien (Jul 4, 2020)

sobrien said:


> Advantages and uses for M with auto ISO are pretty obvious. You’re either b



Lol still figuring out how replies work around here.


----------



## Twinix (Jul 4, 2020)

tpatana said:


> Porsche recently released electric vehicle with "Turbo" on the name. I give you $100 if you find turbo (other than name) on that vehicle.


Turbos the ego of the driver, plus its in the manual and probably on the interior somewhere.


----------



## CvH (Jul 4, 2020)

sobrien said:


> Advantages and uses for M with auto ISO are pretty obvious. You’re either b
> 
> 
> The other very obvious point is using auto allows for changing light conditions. EC then allows you to offset against that, e.g in very high contrast situations where you want to retain highlights you might dial a n -1, or in other situations you might dial in + 1 for a proper ETRR. M with auto ISO is undeniably useful and I’m surprised that anyone would try to argue otherwise.



THANK YOU! You explained way better than I could.


----------



## CvH (Jul 4, 2020)

tss68nl said:


> Having the camera in manual mode, and setting ISO to auto only has very few use cases.
> 
> You will have to manually control the exposure with Exposure Compensation to keep it from blowing out highlights when it cannot go lower than 100 (50) ISO. It means the auto ISO only helps you if you deliberately keep your ISO around a much higher number, absolutely don't want another shutter speed, absolutely need to keep background blur, ánd don't have vastly changing conditions.
> 
> For most pictures I find dynamic range and noise much more important than background blur or shutter speed. So I'd use Av or Tv. It's such a small area of use cases that ISO is actually not important.


 
Simple. Increase the shutter speed if ISO is at it’s lowest value. In manual mode, I can control the DOF I want and the shutter speed to ensure no motion blur.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 4, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> To call it ’manual’ when the camera is setting one parameter is a misnomer, how can manual mode without auto iso and manual mode with auto iso be called the same thing?


The same as with two Av modes and two Tv modes.



Joules said:


> There actually appears to be conflicting information on how DGO works from Canon. TDP has a quote from Canon's last digital event about it, that suggests to me the two image halfes are involved. Which also seemingly contradicts their other marketing. And of course, he only mentions that there are no temporal artifacts, but stay quiet about those from parallax.
> 
> "How does it do that? Each pixel on the sensor is split into two different diodes. Those diodes are always taking two frames of the exact same image. Now for Dual Pixel autofocus, it's using those two frames for phase detection. However, the Canon engineers realized that they can use those two different frames and value them at different gains in order to expand the dynamic range. And so what is happening here is that off of diode A you have one image that is low gain and low noise. Off of diode B you're getting a frame that is of higher gain, but it satisfies the pixel's need for saturation. So, these two separate frames that are of the same image of the exact same point in time but at two separate gains are combined and then dumped out of the sensor. Because these frames are of the exact same point in time and of the exact same image, there is absolutely zero temporal artifacting happening in this" (Source)


Ah, "Paul Hawxhurst, senior professional market specialist".

One would be better asking _engineers_.



Joules said:


> Of course it's possible that the existence of the follow up is an indirect way for Canon to say "we have put out false information in the past". But I would like to see a more technical description of how it actually works. Do they really amplydy each diode twice? So, both diodes per pixel, amplify each twice, combine the two high amp values, combine the two low amp values and then merge those two for the HDR output? Or is it different? I am mostly just curious. But if it does indeed come with parallax artifacts due to amplifying the two halves differently, I can't see it coming to stills.


I don't see how it could be different if they still want their _DPAF_ to work in the areas where the higher-gain ADC overflows.


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## Joules (Jul 4, 2020)

Kit. said:


> One would be better asking _engineers_.


That would be great. If it is in the R5, we certainly will hear more about it next week. Somehow I don't feel like it will be in there though.


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## Kit. (Jul 4, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I wonder that too. You didn’t answer my question though, if M and M mode with auto iso are not the same thing why should they both be called manual? Or put another way, if the camera is setting one of the three metrics for EV how is that manual?


It's not fully manual anyway. The camera still does autofocus and automatic film advance. And automatic white balance too.

The M mode is about manually setting aperture and shutter speed. It has no notion of ISO. ISO, to some degree, could be fixed later in processing. Even with some slide films, such as Fuji RMS.

ISO dial in manual mode is little more than awkward "WYSIWYG EVF brightness" dial, especially with an ISO invariant sensor.



privatebydesign said:


> But wether you agree on the definition of manual is irrelevant, in your definition (with auto iso) you still only need three dials, one for aperture, ss, and EC, in my definition (actual manual) you need three dials, one for aperture, ss and iso. There is no combination of exposure modes where you need four dials so from an ergonomics point of view it is redundant and inefficient. Even with only two dials changing any of the four metrics can be done effortlessly with one hand and a couple of digits, maybe that’s why they do it like that?


Actually, as film Rebels were showing, one dial is enough.



Joules said:


> If it is in the R5, we certainly will hear more about it next week. Somehow I don't feel like it will be in there though.


At the moment, I wouldn't expect DGO in a 8K _passively cooled_ camera.


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## Kit. (Jul 4, 2020)

tss68nl said:


> Having the camera in manual mode, and setting ISO to auto only has very few use cases.


Even one use case would warrant its existence:

Given a known subject magnification:
Aperture for subject's depth of view (like, head size), shutter speed for subject's movement speed, and ISO for "ETTR".


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## koenkooi (Jul 4, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Even one use case would warrant its existence:
> 
> Given a known subject magnification:
> Aperture for subject's depth of view (like, head size), shutter speed for subject's movement speed, and ISO for "ETTR".



That's how I used it last week, I have a sequence of shots of a dragonfly perching on a weed in "high" speed continuous (RP, so "high" is relative) where ISO bounced between 200 and 2500 due cloud movement. 

ISO 2000



20200628-IMG_2763.jpg

ISO 800



20200628-IMG_2758.jpg

Seeing them side by side I notice that I forgot to match the white balance between the two. With the small AF point and evaluative metering I rarely had to tweak EC or fix ISO to get a decent exposure. I'm way too used to using flash for macro, so not doing 1/sync speed, f/11 and ISO100 is a huge change and takes more mental effort than it should right now.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 4, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I wonder that too. You didn’t answer my question though, if M and M mode with auto iso are not the same thing why should they both be called manual? Or put another way, if the camera is setting one of the three metrics for EV how is that manual?
> 
> But wether you agree on the definition of manual is irrelevant, in your definition (with auto iso) you still only need three dials, one for aperture, ss, and EC, in my definition (actual manual) you need three dials, one for aperture, ss and iso. There is no combination of exposure modes where you need four dials so from an ergonomics point of view it is redundant and inefficient. Even with only two dials changing any of the four metrics can be done effortlessly with one hand and a couple of digits, maybe that’s why they do it like that?


Hate to interject but I'd like to see a unique "manual with auto ISO" mode just like Auto Aperture and Auto Shutter speed so that you can use the same control sytem for all three semi-auto modes. Apologize if someone already said that. Canon backed onto the current system and It's clunky. The are clearly enough users operating in auto ISO to justify a new mode. If it was a mode you'd be able to switch between them with a single action.

edit: ....without having to reset the ISO.


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## koenkooi (Jul 4, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Hate to interject but I'd like to see a unique "manual with auto ISO" mode just like Auto Aperture and Auto Shutter speed so that you can use the same control sytem for all three semi-auto modes. Apologize if someone already said that. Canon backed onto the current system and It's clunky. The are clearly enough users operating in auto ISO to justify a new mode. If it was a mode you'd be able to switch between them with a single action.



The printless mode dial on the R and M6II would allow for new and/or custom modes. And for renaming C1/C2/C3, maybe even with your own icons. A spider icon would be a lot clearer to me than 'C1'.


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## SteveC (Jul 4, 2020)

Chz said:


> And if it isn’t then why Canon put the M on the mode dial??? The M has always been Manual since the film day as Degios said. Adding Auto ISO doesn’t mean the M is no longer the case. You still have independent aperture and shutter speed adjustments.
> 
> Again, you are missing the point or just ignored my use case. I prefer to have dedicated dial for each of the triangle (Aperture/ShutterSpeed/ISO). Plus 1 for exposure compensation. I set the mode dial to M (Look up the user manual for definition if you like) and ISO to Auto. I set my preferred Shutter speed and Aperture. it’s much quicker for me to fine tune the exposure by turning the exposure compensation dial. You may prefer to change the ISO setting from Auto but first you need to check what is the ‘current’ ISO value then pump it up and down to get the exposure you want. Then you have to move the ISO back to Auto. Where I simply turn the exposure compensation up or down for the shot then turn it back to the ‘0’ on the metering indicator.



Your first paragraph made me think of something...that may be related to your point.

There's a Tv (or S, on some cameras) mode for the shutter speed.

There's an Av (or A, on some cameras) mode for the aperture.

but there is NO Iv or I mode. One can fake it by going to P and nailing the ISO in place and letting the other two go auto, I suppose, and it's certainly doable in Fv mode as well.

I don't think I've taken my M6-II OUT of Fv mode since I got it. Eventually I'll probably define a C1 or C2, I suppose.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 4, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> The printless mode dial on the R and M6II would allow for new and/or custom modes. And for renaming C1/C2/C3, maybe even with your own icons. A spider icon would be a lot clearer to me than 'C1'.


Custom modes are great but switching to a custom mode resets a lot more than just the top level EV mode which may mean having to reset even more functions than the current method. Plus, I hate to give up a custom mode just for that. I don't have an R so I'm not sure what Fv is all about.

IMO "Manual with Auto ISO' in no different than Av and T and should be treated the same. Somebody more clever than me can come up with a name for it.

edit; functionally it's not a big deal, it's more of an aethetic thing I suppose. Overall the control system on Canon's DSLR's is excellent IMO. Hope they don't screw it up for the new R's. The fact that we haven't seen the top/back of the R6 makes me a little nervous.

Mode "G" for auto gain might work. If anybody at Canon is reading this you can thank me with a complimentary R5 and a nice selection of RF lenses.


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## koenkooi (Jul 4, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> [..] I don't have an R so I'm not sure what Fv is all about.[..]



The basic form:

Back wheel cycles between selecting shutter speed, aperture, exposure compensation and ISO
Front wheel changes the thing you selected with the back wheel
Trashcan resets the selected thing to 'auto' (or 0 for EC)
Leaving everything in auto and selecting aperture makes it equivalent to 'Av', setting that back to auto and selecting shutter speed, that's the same as 'Tv', etc.
I still can't wrap my head around it, I'm too used to moving my thumb over one wheel and moving the mode dial. And the trashcan button is too far away. All this can be fixed by using it exclusively for a week or so and remapping a few buttons, but I haven't found the motivation for that yet.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 4, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> The basic form:
> 
> Back wheel cycles between selecting shutter speed, aperture, exposure compensation and ISO
> Front wheel changes the thing you selected with the back wheel
> ...


Thanks. Interesting idea. I'd have to give it a try but my muscle memory for the existing system is pretty strong. I'd have to see a benefit to want to change and I'm not sure that I could while I was also using Canon DSLR's.


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## canonnews (Jul 4, 2020)

Joules said:


> There actually appears to be conflicting information on how DGO works from Canon. TDP has a quote from Canon's last digital event about it, that suggests to me the two image halfes are involved. Which also seemingly contradicts their other marketing. And of course, he only mentions that there are no temporal artifacts, but stay quiet about those from parallax.
> 
> "How does it do that? Each pixel on the sensor is split into two different diodes. Those diodes are always taking two frames of the exact same image. Now for Dual Pixel autofocus, it's using those two frames for phase detection. However, the Canon engineers realized that they can use those two different frames and value them at different gains in order to expand the dynamic range. And so what is happening here is that off of diode A you have one image that is low gain and low noise. Off of diode B you're getting a frame that is of higher gain, but it satisfies the pixel's need for saturation. So, these two separate frames that are of the same image of the exact same point in time but at two separate gains are combined and then dumped out of the sensor. Because these frames are of the exact same point in time and of the exact same image, there is absolutely zero temporal artifacting happening in this" (Source)
> 
> Do you have a better source for how Canon has pulled off DGO? I would be very interested, as the marketing I've seen seems somewhat lacking as far as proper explanations go.



this is what i read to.

however canon europe says that DGO is compatible with DPAF - which seems to indicate it's two separate things.

There's an image, going around that shows DGO - and it's implying that the SAME pixel is NOT read twice - I don't even think that is possible - you'd need a memory cell.



but .. yes, my mistake on thinking they did the halfs - I guess I read that wrong as well since it certainly seems to be another way of doing it. I'm not sure how applicable this is to stills, but I'm sure canon's pulling off some magic there.


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## Joules (Jul 4, 2020)

canonnews said:


> however canon europe says that DGO is compatible with DPAF - which seems to indicate it's two separate things.
> 
> There's an image, going around that shows DGO - and it's implying that the SAME pixel is NOT read twice - I don't even think that is possible - you'd need a memory cell.
> View attachment 191113


 Thanks for that image! I guess it is from the video of the last digital event? Without context it does suggest to me that the two diodes of the same pixel are indeed amplified differently for DGO. I don't think that being compatible with DPAF means they aren't using different gains for the two diodes in each pixel for DGO. I guess for AF they still have the ability to simply amplify them equally. Obviously the image may oversimplify things. But if that is how they do it, I'm curious how they deal with artifacts if they do release a stills version.


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## Bob Howland (Jul 4, 2020)

CanonOregon said:


> Loved it on my EOS 3!


I could never get it (eye control focus) to work on my EOS 3. I think it was because I wear glasses.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 5, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Hate to interject but I'd like to see a unique "manual with auto ISO" mode just like Auto Aperture and Auto Shutter speed so that you can use the same control sytem for all three semi-auto modes. Apologize if someone already said that. Canon backed onto the current system and It's clunky. The are clearly enough users operating in auto ISO to justify a new mode. If it was a mode you'd be able to switch between them with a single action.
> 
> edit: ....without having to reset the ISO.


Why not just call it auto iso mode? Calling it manual with auto iso is stupid because it is not manual.

i actually use the mode and like it, but to keep calling it manual when the camera sets the exposure value is rediculous.


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## Yasko (Jul 5, 2020)

Focus shift, what else?


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 5, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Why not just call it auto iso mode? Calling it manual with auto iso is stupid because it is not manual.


Because the mode is set to manual? I agree it's stupid but that's techically what it is. It is posible to use auto iso when set to other modes (Av, T ) although that would be an odd way to work in my opinion. Of course as soon as I say that somebody will say they do it all the time. I think it should be a separate mode since, as you say, it's not really M if the ISO is floating with the meter but it's still M mode. I'm voting for a new "G" mode for auto gain.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 5, 2020)

It’s only _“technically what it is”_ if you believe what is written in a translated manual by somebody that doesn’t know cameras, kinda like “_Master and slave flashes_” which have now been dropped.

If on the other hand you have an ounce of common sense then manual means the user sets the ss, aperture, and iso. Let’s use some common sense here, if the camera is setting the EV based on its meter it isn’t ’manual’ mode.

As for those saying the camera still does focus and WB so it isn’t manual, well it Only does AF of you tell it to, it only does auto WB if you tell it to, auto iso is the camera working out what to do so by the very definition of the word it isn’t manual.

I wonder how many others like me are out there? I use true M mode, set a manual Kelvin WB and mostly use non auto focus lenses, but that is because those settings are best suited to the majority of what I do. I am happy to use AF, auto WB especially the newer AWBw, and I’ll happily use ‘manual mode‘ with auto iso, but when I do I also understand the camera is setting the EV value and I have to adjust that via EC just as I do in Av and Tv modes. And if I do that I could only possibly ever need three dials to do so because there are only ever three values to change.

To my addled brain if the camera is setting the EV value it isn’t in Manual.


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## canonnews (Jul 5, 2020)

Joules said:


> Thanks for that image! I guess it is from the video of the last digital event? Without context it does suggest to me that the two diodes of the same pixel are indeed amplified differently for DGO. I don't think that being compatible with DPAF means they aren't using different gains for the two diodes in each pixel for DGO. I guess for AF they still have the ability to simply amplify them equally. Obviously the image may oversimplify things. But if that is how they do it, I'm curious how they deal with artifacts if they do release a stills version.


I honestly don't know. I'm honestly not sure how they are implementing DGO - and Canon's quite closed mouthed on it.. they usually do whitepapers on stuff like this or even peer research papers, and there's nothing. Other sources cite that Canon is amplifying each pixel twice. which is unusual, and difficult. I'm surprised they can even do it without it being a stacked sensor.


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## highdesertmesa (Jul 5, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> It’s only _“technically what it is”_ if you believe what is written in a translated manual by somebody that doesn’t know cameras, kinda like “_Master and slave flashes_” which have now been dropped.
> 
> If on the other hand you have an ounce of common sense then manual means the user sets the ss, aperture, and iso. Let’s use some common sense here, if the camera is setting the EV based on its meter it isn’t ’manual’ mode.
> 
> ...



It would be nice if Canon added an option menu for M mode that let us check/uncheck the things we want to be decoupled when we switch to it. Being able to turn off Auto ISO and AWB and de-activate AF from the shutter button just by switching to M would be great for switching back and forth between P for single-shot-all-auto and M for panos. Additionally, it would be nice if M mode had the option to remember all last-used settings.

Right now the only way I can think of to get close is by using C1/2/3.


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## dcm (Jul 5, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> It’s only _“technically what it is”_ if you believe what is written in a translated manual by somebody that doesn’t know cameras, kinda like “_Master and slave flashes_” which have now been dropped.
> 
> If on the other hand you have an ounce of common sense then manual means the user sets the ss, aperture, and iso. Let’s use some common sense here, if the camera is setting the EV based on its meter it isn’t ’manual’ mode.



Agreed. For those of us that date back to film days, manual meant not using the built-in metering to contol the camera. We might use the built in light meter, an external light meter or some rules of thumb like Sunny-16 or Looney-11 as a guide. Tables were sometimes printed on the camera body.




ASA/ISO was fixed based on the film speed. Typically a set and forget value when you load film. Some cameras included an exposure compensation mechanism like my Canon A-1 that simply rotated the ASA/ISO dial on the left +/- two stops but many photographers did this without the extra help. In this case I am shooting in Tv mode with 1/1000 on the shutter dial, the aperture on the lens set to f/4, and film speed set to ASA 100 with 0 exposure compensation. It doesn't matter what the camera meters, I'm controlling all of the exposure values with two dials and the aperture ring.




If I put the aperture ring setting on the lens to the green A as below, I am now set up to let the camera metering determine the exposure. Since I've set the shutter speed (Tv) to 1/1000 the camera will determine the aperture. If I change the shutter dial to Av mode and choose the aperture, the camera will then set the shutter speed. The green P mode (next to 1000) was Programmed aperture which let the camera set both the shutter speed and aperture value. The A-1 was among the first cameras that provided this level of control which is why I purchased it - I shot much more in M and Av mode than Tv. The more popular (and cheaper) AE-1 only supported manual or shutter priority where you set the shutter speed and ASA/ISO while the camera determined the aperture. The AV-1 provided aperture priority (camera set the shutter) but not manual.




Fast forward 40 years to my M6 mark II with Fv that allows me to easily control any combination of the exposure settings using the thumb (quick control) dial and shutter (main) dial. The thumb dial choses which value I want to control - currently the exposure compensation with the green wheel in the image below. The shuttter dial let's me dial it up or down. In this case I'd be shooting full auto, but I can easily set the Tv, Av, and ISO values to get full manual all while looking through the viewfinder. It's quickly become my most used mode along with the small brightness histogram (not shown) that provides a much better indication of exposure level for ETTR when I control everything using just the two dials.




With this method you don't predetermine the mode on the mode dial. You simple set the values you want and let the camera pick the others. And I guess manual would mean that there are not AUTOs showing.


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## tpatana (Jul 5, 2020)

How about compromise.

3 dials. SS, F and Iso.

And if you set auto-iso, the iso-dial changes to EC?

Deal?


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 5, 2020)

I've always found Auto ISO in Manual very annoying. I do understand it may be useful in certain scenarios but it's always been useless to me, and I have had spoilt images when ISO accidentally turned to Auto.

I've shot concerts/action with random stage light in full manual, and I do use metering (as it's shown in the viewfinder and in the live view). When I control ISO manually, I still see the metering indicator and I can compensate using either aperture, shutter or ISO. 

For landscapes, I always use Manual plus histogram, any compensation is totally useless there.


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## MrToes (Jul 5, 2020)

Pixel Shift function same as the Sony would be nice ! ! !


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## privatebydesign (Jul 5, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I've always found Auto ISO in Manual very annoying. I do understand it may be useful in certain scenarios but it's always been useless to me, and I have had spoilt images when ISO accidentally turned to Auto.
> 
> I've shot concerts/action with random stage light in full manual, and I do use metering (as it's shown in the viewfinder and in the live view). When I control ISO manually, I still see the metering indicator and I can compensate using either aperture, shutter or ISO.
> 
> For landscapes, I always use Manual plus histogram, any compensation is totally useless there.



I use it, one instance would be light limited situations where the subject illumination is not constant. So if I am using the 300 f2.8 I’ll peg the aperture at f2.8, I’ll know I need ss of x value for any given subject so will set that, then I let the iso ride up and down to get the right EV in the changing light, I’ll put in EC to adjust for the subject reflectance based on previous experience or a few test shots and chimping But normally set it and forget it. But the truth is the results are very similar settings to P mode, indeed P mode will set basically the same metrics and before auto iso I used to use P mode much more, shiftable P mode with lens focal length aware ss is a very solid exposure mode in my experience.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 5, 2020)

Idealy, using auto ISO should deliver the lowest posible ISO when your shutter speed can't go any lower without blur and your lens is wide open. I may not always like the ISO selected but it's not as if there was a better alternative available. In Av or T mode I'd have to select a higher ISO or risk underexposure/motion blur.

I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't work that way all of the time if we get to the point where ISO and gain don't significantly effect IQ.

edit: "ISO" on digital cameras is an artificial construct for managing inefficiencies in the sensors. When sensor development overcomes those inefficiencies I'd be happy to never think about ISO ever again.


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## koenkooi (Jul 5, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Because the mode is set to manual? I agree it's stupid but that's techically what it is. It is posible to use auto iso when set to other modes (Av, T ) although that would be an odd way to work in my opinion. Of course as soon as I say that somebody will say they do it all the time. [..]



*Raises hand*

When chasing my kids in and around the house, I have the M6II on Av, auto ISO and "Min. shutter spd." set to +1. Near a window, away from windows, inside a blanket fort or outside in the garden, it produces decent enough pictures. I'd use P mode if that wasn't trying to pick f/5.6 most of the times. When using flash, auto ISO needs to get disabled, since it *really* likes ISO 1600.

So, a really specific use case, but that's how the M is configured most of the time, since it's on the table in the living room to be quickly grabbed to take a picture.

For making things even less user specified: an option to automatically use e-shutter if you need above 1/4000 in auto-shutter modes would be nice as well. On the 2 sunny days a year when it might be needed


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## Kit. (Jul 5, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Why not just call it auto iso mode?


Because there are multiple different modes with "auto iso"?



privatebydesign said:


> Calling it manual with auto iso is stupid because it is not manual.


How about calling it manual with TTL flash?



privatebydesign said:


> i actually use the mode and like it, but to keep calling it manual when the camera sets the exposure value is rediculous.


It doesn't. The exposure value in photography _does not include ISO_.


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## tpatana (Jul 5, 2020)

Kit. said:


> It doesn't. The exposure value in photography _does not include ISO_.



Care to explain?


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## Kit. (Jul 5, 2020)

tpatana said:


> Care to explain?











Exposure value - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 5, 2020)

Kit. said:


> It doesn't. The exposure value in photography _does not include ISO_.



Formally it doesn't but in practice we have the 'exposure triangle' which includes ISO.

Shutter speed and aperture control the amount of light and ISO controls the media sensitivity. ISO value determines the required exposure.


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## SecureGSM (Jul 5, 2020)

Yasko said:


> Focus shift, what else?


No thank you. Pixel shift instead please


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## Joules (Jul 5, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Shutter speed and aperture control the amount of light and ISO controls the media sensitivity. ISO value determines the required exposure.


Technically, ISO is just about amplification of the signal. If your signal is too weak to be picked up by the sensor at ISO 100, it will still be too weak at ISO 12800. But at the higher ISO, read noise becomes less apparent compared to the signal. So if your signal is detected, it may be visible better in the image at the higher ISO.

I believe thinking of the exposure triangle as including ISO can be distracting. There are a lot of people who believe high ISO values causes noisy images, when in reality low amounts of light do. And those are controlled by the other too parameters.


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## degos (Jul 5, 2020)

"Sunny-16 or Looney-11"

I always liked the nickname Apollo-11 for that exposure!


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## degos (Jul 5, 2020)

sobrien said:


> EC then allows you to offset against that, e.g in very high contrast situations where you want to retain highlights you might dial a n -1, or in other situations you might dial in + 1



But why bother with EC when directly changing the ISO *does exactly the same thing*?

That's what I don't understand about Auto ISO. You're simply abstracting the EV behind another layer of complexity. Just adjust the three basic parameters to put the exposure where you want it; +1, -3, whatever and stop fighting the camera with EC adjustments.

Imagine if there was a Manual mode with Auto Shutter Speed. What on earth would be the point? Auto ISO is the same concept; you're surrendering control of the exposure to the camera.


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## BillB (Jul 5, 2020)

degos said:


> Imagine if there was a Manual mode with Auto Shutter Speed. What on earth would be the point? Auto ISO is the same concept; you're surrendering control of the exposure to the camera


Shooting fast with changing light levels auto iso lets you work with composition, shutter speed and aperture without needing to worry so much about ISO going between sunlight and shadow etc.
edit. In Manual with auto ISO you can control ISO by changing either shutter, aperture or exposure comp.


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## CvH (Jul 5, 2020)

degos said:


> Imagine if there was a Manual mode with Auto Shutter Speed. What on earth would be the point? Auto ISO is the same concept; you're surrendering control of the exposure to the camera.



It's called Av. I will be surprised if you haven't used this mode.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 5, 2020)

Joules said:


> I believe thinking of the exposure triangle as including ISO can be distracting.



But it does include ISO by definition. However the exposure triangle isn't about exposure, it's about relationship between ISO, shutter speed and aperture.


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## Kit. (Jul 5, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Formally it doesn't but in practice we have the 'exposure triangle' which includes ISO.


In practice, we can correct "ISO" in post if we haven't blown out highlights. And with an ISO invariant sensor, we wouldn't lose shadows.



Quarkcharmed said:


> Shutter speed and aperture control the amount of light and ISO controls the media sensitivity. ISO value determines the required exposure.


It determines the exposure that a light meter would "want". It doesn't determine the exposure the photographer will get in manual mode (with or without auto-ISO).

In a camera with an ISO invariant sensor, ISO _in manual mode_ could affect the final RAW image just as a hint to a RAW converter, like white balance. Auto-ISO or not.


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## jolyonralph (Jul 5, 2020)

degos said:


> Auto ISO is the same concept; you're surrendering control of the exposure to the camera.



Bad choice of term. You're not surrendering anything. You have a tool that can calculate optimal exposure in a thousandth of a second based on a multitude of different input parameters, there's no reason not to use it, much in the same way that you don't NEED to rely on autofocus, you can use manual focus.

I find it odd that some photographers think that you need to shoot in M all the time or you're somehow not a real photographer. I'm probably shooting mostly in Av mode except in the rare case that I'm after fast action, and then it's Tv. I use M mode for things like macro photography where I'm taking shots slowly and I'm more in control of the variables, or on studio shoots where I have a specific studio flash speed/power dialed in. But all other times I let the camera deal with all that crap, because it's much faster than I am. And that means leaving it on auto ISO most of the time too.

With mirrorless cameras and more intelligent scene analysis AI, the camera's ability to get a better exposure than you can do manually is only going to increase. 

I'm all for those starting out in photography sticking with M for a while as a tool to understand properly how the camera works. But once you've mastered that, using the camera's capabilities properly isn't cheating at all.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 5, 2020)

Kit. said:


> In practice, we can correct "ISO" in post if we haven't blown out highlights. And with an ISO invariant sensor, we wouldn't lose shadows.



With ISO-invariant sensor, you can just increase the exposure in post: +1 stop = ISO * 2.
It doesn't matter if you have or haven't blown out highlights, you just get the same result with increased exposure as you'd have gotten it with the higher ISO number.

Still, even with ISO-invariant sensors, the base ISO matters.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 5, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> With ISO-invariant sensor, you can just increase the exposure in post: +1 stop = ISO * 2.
> It doesn't matter if you have or haven't blown out highlights, you just get the same result with increased exposure as you'd have gotten it with the higher ISO number.
> 
> Still, even with ISO-invariant sensors, the base ISO matters.


Yes, except for the inconvenience of the EVF as a low-DR medium.


----------



## Del Paso (Jul 5, 2020)

TominNJ said:


> Brownie mode:
> 
> fixed focus 50mm lens
> 
> ...


Brownie rules !


----------



## sobrien (Jul 5, 2020)

degos said:


> But why bother with EC when directly changing the ISO *does exactly the same thing*?
> 
> That's what I don't understand about Auto ISO. You're simply abstracting the EV behind another layer of complexity. Just adjust the three basic parameters to put the exposure where you want it; +1, -3, whatever and stop fighting the camera with EC adjustments.
> 
> Imagine if there was a Manual mode with Auto Shutter Speed...



The clue is in the bit of my post that you didn’t quote that referred to changing light conditions.


----------



## Whowe (Jul 5, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Of course I have, are you missing the point of it? It increases the dynamic range at low (base) iso it does nothing for higher iso readout DR. The additional readout is at 5,000 iso and is for better shadow detail when sampled at the same time as the native 800 iso.


The key point I think some people might miss here is that you still have to expose for the lower "base" iso. This will give you better DR in the shadows when you are at that base iso, but is your are still exposing for that base iso (800 in this case) it will not help you get better shutter speed with slow lenses.


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 5, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> Putting you on the ignore list now, suggest you do the same.



I'm heartbroken.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 5, 2020)

degos said:


> But why bother with EC when directly changing the ISO *does exactly the same thing*?


It doesn't.

Directly changing the ISO fixed the ISO, no matter what the light meter shows.
Changing the EC while keeping ISO on auto links the ISO to the camera's light meter readings.


----------



## Whowe (Jul 5, 2020)

sobrien said:


> Of course he/she does.
> 
> He/she also understands that there is if you set ISO to auto.
> 
> ...


I don't understand. To set any of the three settings to auto, you would just rotate the dial to the lowest setting and the next lower click is auto. Similar to the way Fuji manual dials are set up. (i.e. iso dial starts at "auto," 100, 200, 400, etc.) You could use the "set" button in the center of the EC dial to "reset" it to zero to make that very simple. 

If you have settings that are very high that you want to jump back and forth to from auto (i.e. SS auto or 1250), then you use you custom functions for that specific use case. 

So, I don't see a fifth dial, and 4 dials would allow the settings to always be at a specific location/dial. I realize some people don't use the auto feature much and many people may not use the FV mode yet, but that doesn't mean the it would not be a good idea to have the controls.


----------



## slclick (Jul 5, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> Bad choice of term. You're not surrendering anything. You have a tool that can calculate optimal exposure in a thousandth of a second based on a multitude of different input parameters, there's no reason not to use it, much in the same way that you don't NEED to rely on autofocus, you can use manual focus.
> 
> I find it odd that some photographers think that you need to shoot in M all the time or you're somehow not a real photographer. I'm probably shooting mostly in Av mode except in the rare case that I'm after fast action, and then it's Tv. I use M mode for things like macro photography where I'm taking shots slowly and I'm more in control of the variables, or on studio shoots where I have a specific studio flash speed/power dialed in. But all other times I let the camera deal with all that crap, because it's much faster than I am. And that means leaving it on auto ISO most of the time too.
> 
> ...


I love using auto iso, albeit I use it in very narrow ranges so it's not a cavalier and 'let the camera set it' type of control issue. i.e 100-800 or 400-3200. As for EC dials from other manufacturers, I have always scratched my head over them. I have wondered how it is utilized when you have already selected a set iso or an auto range. What am I missing here?


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 6, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> If you're metering a scene for which the spot meter is useful in the first place, then being able to link that to the focus point is immensely useful since it's probably a 100% chance that the object you want to expose for is also what you want in focus.
> 
> If you're using the spot meter the "old fashioned way" then you're right, because there's no really good reason to use the spot meter the old fashioned way anymore, linked to the focus point or not.


That sounds reasonable. Canon includes it on the 1 series cameras so I guess it has it's fans. Personally, I could live without it but if others find it useful that's OK by me. I wouldn't suggest using unless you know exactly what you are trying to accomplish. But if you have a 1 series the assumption is you should know what you're about.

I just don't see where it's worth the constant attention it gets. That likely has more to do with people feeling like they are being denied something than it's actual usefulness. But, I feel that way about a lot of other features so who am I to judge.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 6, 2020)

slclick said:


> I love using auto iso, albeit I use it in very narrow ranges so it's not a cavalier and 'let the camera set it' type of control issue. i.e 100-800 or 400-3200. As for EC dials from other manufacturers, I have always scratched my head over them. I have wondered how it is utilized when you have already selected a set iso or an auto range. What am I missing here?


If I understand you question: Mainly you need EC with auto ISO when the meter isn't reading the scene properly. Evaluative metering is good but not perfect.

Generally speaking:

I find EC most helpful with auto ISO when you are shooting high DR scenes or backlit subjects and you don't want to let the meter blow out the highlights (or if that's exactly what you want). If there is a lot of DR and a high ISO the meter can chose to sacrifice highlights which I hate. You can monitor the histogram or turn on highlight blinkies and add neg EC when the exposure threatens highlight detail.

You can also use it to add positive EC to a low contrast scene to expose to the right when highlights aren't at risk but the benefits of that aren't as significant.

You can accomplish all of that any number of other ways but I find auto ISO most helpful when I know the light will be challenging and I'll need to react to changes in the light very quickly.

On the Canon bodies I own, you push the Set button and rotate the top/finger control wheel to change EC while in Auto ISO. It's quick and painless. The don't need another wheel or control IMO. Although it would be nice if that set/wheel configuration reverted to changing ISO when you weren't in auto ISO mode.


----------



## CvH (Jul 6, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> That sounds reasonable. Canon includes it on the 1 series cameras so I guess it has it's fans. Personally, I could live without it but if others find it useful that's OK by me. I wouldn't suggest using unless you know exactly what you are trying to accomplish. But if you have a 1 series the assumption is you should know what you're about.
> 
> I just don't see where it's worth the constant attention it gets. That likely has more to do with people feeling like they are being denied something than it's actual usefulness. But, I feel that way about a lot of other features so who am I to judge.



I have a friend who primarily shoot portrait and occasionally event. He’s going to get the 1DXII or 1DXIII instead or the R5, just because the R5 doesn’t have spot focal links to metering.


----------



## deleteme (Jul 6, 2020)

Price at $1899US?


----------



## CvH (Jul 6, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> If I understand you question: Mainly you need EC with auto ISO when the meter isn't reading the scene properly. Evaluative metering is good but not perfect.
> 
> Generally speaking:
> 
> ...



Bingo. I assigned EC to the Lens Control Ring on my R. 

That is exactly my point of having an additional dial should I wan to move from Auto ISO and back quickly.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 6, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> It's not important enough to be a deal breaker, which is precisely why is so annoying to see these sorts of things left out. It's artificial segmentation taken to the extreme. Luckily, it looks like Canon may be done with that sort of thing, so thanks Sony.


Canon puts features in $6500 bodies that they don't include in $3500 bodies. Who say's it's artificial. I don't know that's true. Are you saying Sony doesn't include additional features in their higher priced models. All company's do that.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 6, 2020)

Chz said:


> I have a friend who primarily shoot portrait and occasionally event. He’s going to get the 1DXII or 1DXIII instead or the R5, just because the R5 doesn’t have spot focal links to metering.


People do all kinds of things I don't understand. I don't think we know that about the R5 yet. At least I don't know that yet. My last word on this subject. I genuinely have zero interest in it and wished I hadn't gotten involved. I've learned my lesson.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 6, 2020)

Loverboy92 said:


> Anyone who's being honest has to admit that Canon, as the market leader for ages, as gotten away with stuff no other manufacturer could have. Yes, every manufacture segments their products. NO, not every manufacture disables things in software for no good reason. Most of the time a higher end camera is a superset of the next step down, with Canon, you would often have a lower end models that did something a higher end model didn't do, and vice versa. And no including 24p until there's an outcry is a uniquely Canon move. Or MJPEG only for 4k.
> 
> I do honestly find it surprising that Canon has an army of fanboys who defend this nonsense.
> 
> And no, I'm OBVOUSLY NOT saying Sony doesn't include additional features in higher end models. I'm saying Sony came along a lit a fire under Canon's ass, and we all benefit from that.


I wouldn't do business with a company that I felt that way about so it's hard to understand why you are here TBH. Do whatever you want. Nobody cares. Anybody who calls out your BS is always a fanboy. I've seen this movie and it always ends the same. It's just tedious and boring. If you don't like Canon fine. Get on with your life. Nobody's stopping you. I don't know why you have to come here and whine about it.


----------



## Joules (Jul 6, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> it's hard to understand why you are here TBH. Do whatever you want. Nobody cares.


Is the guy deleting his posts himself or is that somebody on the forum side doing it?

If so, I don't think that's right. Critizing Canon is fair game, with the kind of stuff they pull. They actually left out 24 p, FFS. I know, they probably looked at the market and did it for reasons that are understandable from their perspective. But it is just such a Canon thing to do, it almost beats the release of the 700D. 

Throwing "fanboy" around towards people defending Canon's strategies is just as silly of course, as I don't think anybody actually cherishes the segmentation. But if that is what it takes for Canon to offer us what we do like about our gear and be happy with their economics, we can live with it.

If having that back and forth is too much for the forum censors I am not surprised we've seen so few actual trolls recently. But it makes me concerned.


----------



## degos (Jul 6, 2020)

If you're relying on the metering to adjust AutoISO


jolyonralph said:


> Bad choice of term. You're not surrendering anything. You have a tool that can calculate optimal exposure in a thousandth of a second based on a multitude of different input parameters, there's no reason not to use it, much in the same way that you don't NEED to rely on autofocus, you can use manual focus.



It's not optimal exposure, because the camera never knows what you're exposing or what your intention is. It makes a best guess against an average scene.

Of course you can say "but I give it hints through EC". To which I say "why not just expose it yourself then ".

Imagine an AF system that defaulted to focusing on an 'average target' like a face and you constantly had to twiddle Focus Compensation to adjust it to a focal plane 1 metre closer for your composition... plenty of people would be saying 'just put it in MF mode and do it yourself'.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 6, 2020)

Joules said:


> Is the guy deleting his posts himself or is that somebody on the forum side doing it?
> 
> If so, I don't think that's right. Critizing Canon is fair game, with the kind of stuff they pull. They actually left out 24 p, FFS. I know, they probably looked at the market and did it for reasons that are understandable from their perspective. But it is just such a Canon thing to do, it almost beats the release of the 700D.
> 
> ...


I don't know. I didn't report the posts or the poster. I didn't even call him a troll.

Canon does lots of things that annoy me as well as everybody else. I didn't even have a problem with some of what he was complaining about. I did have a problem with the way he was complaining about it and I just didn't want to get sucked into another rehash of the same old youtube talking points. I go out of my way to avoid that and that was as far as it was going. I suspect he took the posts down himself.

It's going to get a lot worse with the launch.

It might be time to take a break for a while until the wave passes but I'm bored to death from all of the endless social distancing where I live.

Now i feel bad. I guess I was a little harsh.


----------



## koenkooi (Jul 6, 2020)

Joules said:


> Is the guy deleting his posts himself or is that somebody on the forum side doing it?
> 
> If so, I don't think that's right. Critizing Canon is fair game, with the kind of stuff they pull. They actually left out 24 p, FFS. I know, they probably looked at the market and did it for reasons that are understandable from their perspective. But it is just such a Canon thing to do, it almost beats the release of the 700D.[..]



My main issue with the term (apart from the word used and unnecessary violent imaging), is that the interwebs at large lump segmentation and technical limitations together. Looking at what Magic Lantern has been able to do and more importantly, hasn't been able to do, we can be fairly certain that the "only 4k in crop mode" is a limitation of the sensor, it's just too darn slow to read. No 24p, hiding e-shutter in a useless mode on the RP, those are all segmentation.

Saying things like "Canon adds in the rolling shutter effect on purpose to protect their cinema line!!!eleven!!" will indeed rile up people here, for obvious reasons.


----------



## Joules (Jul 6, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I don't know. I didn't report the posts or the poster. I didn't even call him a troll.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Now i feel bad. I guess I was a little harsh.


I wasn't criticizing you, and I think you expressed yourself in a reasonable manner. I was just wondering what was going on with his posts, especially since there was a reply to the one I quoted that only stayed up a few minutes.


----------



## Mod_1 (Jul 6, 2020)

Joules said:


> Is the guy deleting his posts himself or is that somebody on the forum side doing it?
> 
> If so, I don't think that's right. Critizing Canon is fair game, with the kind of stuff they pull. They actually left out 24 p, FFS. I know, they probably looked at the market and did it for reasons that are understandable from their perspective. But it is just such a Canon thing to do, it almost beats the release of the 700D.
> 
> ...


He deleted them himself.


----------



## jolyonralph (Jul 6, 2020)

degos said:


> It's not optimal exposure, because the camera never knows what you're exposing or what your intention is. It makes a best guess against an average scene.



That certainly USED to be the case, but isn't true any more. For years now Canon have been getting all the RAW files from 'Explorers of Light' to build a database to train their AI system (one of the EofL told me this directly a couple of years ago). The AI in mirrorless systems nowadays is far more advanced that you may think. The idea of just doing an 'average scene' may have worked in the first generation mirrorless cameras but it's totally obsolete now. You can blame cellphone cameras for raising the bar on computational photography now.

Now, I do agree that no matter how well trained an AI system is you still can't guarantee it will get the exposure right in every case. So if you have the time to adjust things manually then it's going to work out better. But not everyone has time to rethink this for every shot - and this is where the camera's intelligence helps.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 6, 2020)

Joules said:


> I wasn't criticizing you, and I think you expressed yourself in a reasonable manner. I was just wondering what was going on with his posts, especially since there was a reply to the one I quoted that only stayed up a few minutes.


I took it further than I should have which I regret. In the long run I probably did the guy a favor. Glad I missed his final post.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 6, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> That certainly USED to be the case, but isn't true any more. For years now Canon have been getting all the RAW files from 'Explorers of Light' to build a database to train their AI system (one of the EofL told me this directly a couple of years ago). The AI in mirrorless systems nowadays is far more advanced that you may think. The idea of just doing an 'average scene' may have worked in the first generation mirrorless cameras but it's totally obsolete now. You can blame cellphone cameras for raising the bar on computational photography now.
> 
> Now, I do agree that no matter how well trained an AI system is you still can't guarantee it will get the exposure right in every case. So if you have the time to adjust things manually then it's going to work out better. But not everyone has time to rethink this for every shot - and this is where the camera's intelligence helps.


I'm certainly not an EofL but Canon contacted me a few times asking me to submit photos to be evaluated by their AI software. As I recall, they wanted up to ten images. They didn't offer any compensation so I declined to participate on general principle but I agree that there is a lot more going into evaluative metering than just scene averaging. Canon now has that Image Connect service so they can just run their AI software through all those images.


----------



## Paul1975 (Jul 6, 2020)

Do the experienced 5d users amongst you guys think the R5 will have crop modes/ aps-c mode as a nice feature for us photographers? Coming from a 5dsr this is kind of important for me. Any thoughts?


----------



## Admin US West (Jul 6, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I don't know. I didn't report the posts or the poster. I didn't even call him a troll.
> 
> Canon does lots of things that annoy me as well as everybody else. I didn't even have a problem with some of what he was complaining about. I did have a problem with the way he was complaining about it and I just didn't want to get sucked into another rehash of the same old youtube talking points. I go out of my way to avoid that and that was as far as it was going. I suspect he took the posts down himself.
> 
> ...


He removed the posts himself and made some unflattering comments about members. I don't think he wants to be part of the forum.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 6, 2020)

Admin US West said:


> He removed the posts himself and made some unflattering comments about members. I don't think he wants to be part of the forum.


Thanks. I guess it was probably for the best. I shouldn't have let it go that far but I think that was the inevitable conclusion. If I hadn't been the trigger, something else would have been.. Too bad. This site is a great resource.


----------



## Hagar (Jul 6, 2020)

Wouldn’t it be cool if the body had an electronic distancing measuring device built in? Center box for focusing but a distance number show up in screen? Watching 3 Coopers Hawks on the roof of an old shed and wondering how far away they were.


----------



## usern4cr (Jul 6, 2020)

Hagar said:


> Wouldn’t it be cool if the body had an electronic distancing measuring device built in? Center box for focusing but a distance number show up in screen? Watching 3 Coopers Hawks on the roof of an old shed and wondering how far away they were.


Doesn't the camera already know that (at least to a limited precision)? It has to know what position the lens has been focused to, and the lens focal length, so it should know the distance. I'm guessing that you just want a much more accurate value for the distance, right? Or are you saying that they've never displayed it in the OVF/EVF before?


----------



## Hagar (Jul 6, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Doesn't the camera already know that (at least to a limited precision)? It has to know what position the lens has been focused to, and the lens focal length, so it should know the distance. I'm guessing that you just want a much more accurate value for the distance, right? Or are you saying that they've never displayed it in the OVF/EVF before?



Curious mostly. Old Alaskan surveyor here. Would love to see a number in the viewfinder!


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 7, 2020)

Does it look like you change the mode by pushing the button that says mode (1DX style) in the center of the top thumb wheel? That would leave the outside of the wheel custom assignable for ISO/EC pr some other function as appears to be the case on the R6. The button doesn't look like a lock and if you change mode by rotating the wheel it will be easy to change by accident. The R5 vs R6 thing is harder than I thought.


----------



## koenkooi (Jul 7, 2020)

Hagar said:


> Wouldn’t it be cool if the body had an electronic distancing measuring device built in? Center box for focusing but a distance number show up in screen? Watching 3 Coopers Hawks on the roof of an old shed and wondering how far away they were.


The R and RP already do that, but only with RF lenses.


----------



## tron (Jul 9, 2020)

So now that Canon has made the official announcements what are the supposed surpises?


----------



## TomR (Jul 9, 2020)

tron said:


> So now that Canon has made the official announcements what are the supposed surpises?



weak battery life


----------



## FrenchFry (Jul 9, 2020)

tron said:


> So now that Canon has made the official announcements what are the supposed surpises?


I watched the USA announcement at 5am and am still wondering the answer to this question. 
There were tons of great things to see, but I guess after all the leaks and a strong set of features across the board, I can't quite figure out which announcement was supposed to be THE ONE that was referred to in this thread.


----------



## AlanF (Jul 9, 2020)

Portrait lighting mode from cell phones?


----------



## cdcooker (Jul 9, 2020)

I was going to ask the same question. What the one surprise that we haven't known already on this rumor site?


----------



## Joules (Jul 9, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Portrait lighting mode from cell phones?


Some people were asking for more computational photography. Clearly Canon has an interest in not offering artificial background blur, but seeing how well they can change the light source angle, they must be able to extract quite a good depth map from DPAF. I wonder if they'll expand on that capability with firmware in the future. The hardware in these cameras is crazy. I'm curious if the updates the R got were an exception or if software updates from Canon may be the way forward.


----------



## fentiger (Jul 9, 2020)

a lot of people was predicting pixel shift, didn't hear that mentioned


----------



## Hagar (Jul 10, 2020)

The dog and bird eye focus tracking caught me off guard and glad to see.


----------



## SteveC (Jul 10, 2020)

Hagar said:


> The dog and bird eye focus tracking caught me off guard and glad to see.




Translation Error! It tracks _birddog_ eyes. Other sorts of dogs, and all birds...you're out of luck.

(OK, that was my attempt at a joke.)


----------



## FrenchFry (Jul 10, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Shoot wildlife. You will realise very quickly how good it is. And yes. Sometimes it means you blow the entire sky out. But often that is what is needed to expose the subject properly


While the R5 does not have the same option to link the metering to the spot focus point as the 1DX iii, the spec sheet description of evaluative metering for the R5 mentions being linked to the focus point.
I am personally very interested to see how this works!



https://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/products/eos/product-1/pdfs/EOSR5_specifications.pdf



Metering modes :
Real-time metering with image sensor (384 [24x16 zone metering])
(1) Evaluative metering (AF point-linked)
(2) Partial metering (approx. 6.1% of the area at the center of the screen)
(3) Spot metering (approx. 3.1% of the area at the center of the screen)
(4) Center-weighted average metering


----------



## koenkooi (Jul 10, 2020)

FrenchFry said:


> Plot twist :
> While the R5 does not have the same option to link the metering to the spot focus point as the 1DX iii, the spec sheet description of evaluative metering for the R5 mentions being linked to the focus point.
> I am personally very interested to see how this works!
> 
> ...



The R, RP and M series have had that for a while now.


----------



## FrenchFry (Jul 10, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> The R, RP and M series have had that for a while now.


So what are the practical differences between this mode and the one available on the 1DX iii?


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jul 10, 2020)

FrenchFry said:


> While the R5 does not have the same option to link the metering to the spot focus point as the 1DX iii, the spec sheet description of evaluative metering for the R5 mentions being linked to the focus point.
> I am personally very interested to see how this works!
> 
> 
> ...


That looks the goods. still looks at the entire scene but gives weight to the focus point? I like it.


----------



## zim (Jul 10, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> The R, RP and M series have had that for a while now.


Don't know about those models but for DSLRs I thought this only happened when using ae lock *


----------



## koenkooi (Jul 10, 2020)

FrenchFry said:


> So what are the practical differences between this mode and the one available on the 1DX iii?



From what I've understood, size and weight of the point. On the 1Dx3 it would use a smaller surface (2.5%) and weight the exposure more heavily towards that. 

On the R/RP/M you can see it happening in real time if you put someone in front of a brightly lit window: you will see a silhouette till you move the focus point to the face and you'll see the camera ramp up the exposure to get the face lit better. It isn't perfect, but the RP and M6II get things a lot further in the right direction compared to my 7D.


----------



## FrenchFry (Jul 10, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> From what I've understood, size and weight of the point. On the 1Dx3 it would use a smaller surface (2.5%) and weight the exposure more heavily towards that.
> 
> On the R/RP/M you can see it happening in real time if you put someone in front of a brightly lit window: you will see a silhouette till you move the focus point to the face and you'll see the camera ramp up the exposure to get the face lit better. It isn't perfect, but the RP and M6II get things a lot further in the right direction compared to my 7D.


Thank you for providing this explanation, I think this metering mode will be extremely useful for me!


----------



## Jack Douglas (Jul 10, 2020)

FrenchFry said:


> While the R5 does not have the same option to link the metering to the spot focus point as the 1DX iii, the spec sheet description of evaluative metering for the R5 mentions being linked to the focus point.
> I am personally very interested to see how this works!
> 
> 
> ...


This is good news since now you are influencing what the exposure should be "focusing on". A quick look at my Pileated WP face and body illustrates this well.

Jack


----------



## highdesertmesa (Jul 11, 2020)

Let's revisit this. We'll know for sure in a few weeks, but looks like somehow Canon has pulled it off.









SecureGSM said:


> #what.are.you.smoking......





privatebydesign said:


> I don't believe that for a second.
> 
> There is nothing to gain in high iso DR as all manufacturers are within a hairsbreadth of each other. https://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS 1D X Mark III,Nikon D5,Nikon D6,Sony ILCE-9M2
> 
> View attachment 191087





Aussie shooter said:


> That would certainly be a crazy achievement. I did not think there was that much room for improvement in current sensor tech. And it would absolutely change my mind about the f11 primes.


----------



## Sporgon (Jul 11, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> That looks the goods. still looks at the entire scene but gives weight to the focus point? I like it.


This has been a feature of EOS cameras for decades now !!


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## SecureGSM (Jul 11, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Let's revisit this. We'll know for sure in a few weeks, but looks like somehow Canon has pulled it off.


well, here is what you said,, word for word:

"... One thing is certain: Canon wouldn't be making f/7.1 L zooms and f/11 primes if they didn't have *insane (as in industry-shaking) improvements in store for high ISO noise.** Canon must have achieved current f/5.6-level IQ at f/11*. So that's the amount of light/improvement we're talking about here –* at minimum, IMO. ..."*
A.M.: f/5.6 level of IQ at f/11 is at least (that's what you said)... at least 2 stops of improvement at high ISO noise (that how you put it) , not base ISO.

expectation of at least 2 stops of high ISO performance improvement is.. can i just say.. a little bit unwarranted at this stage


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## Aussie shooter (Jul 11, 2020)

Sporgon said:


> This has been a feature of EOS cameras for decades now !!


It has? Shows how much I pay attention sometimes. In that case, it does very little


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## jd7 (Jul 11, 2020)

FrenchFry said:


> While the R5 does not have the same option to link the metering to the spot focus point as the 1DX iii, the spec sheet description of evaluative metering for the R5 mentions being linked to the focus point.
> I am personally very interested to see how this works!
> 
> 
> ...


While it's always possible the new cameras aren't doing evaluative metering exactly the same was as older cameras, I think Canon's evaluative metering has been linked to the AF point (ie the camera gives some extra weight to the metering required to properly expose where the active AF point/s is/are) for some time.

For example, see https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...ecember/photographing-snow/photographing-snow

So, it's not obvious to me that the evaluative metering in the new model cameras is really doing anything different from the evaluative metering in older models.

EDIT: I have just realised Sporgon beat me to it!


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## Sharlin (Jul 11, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> It has? Shows how much I pay attention sometimes. In that case, it does very little



It doesn’t do very little. If it didn’t prioritize the selected focus point, like basically every camera in existence, getting properly exposed photos would be ridiculously harder. It’s one of those features that Just Work which is probably why you haven’t even noticed it. And you can easily see it in action, just find a high-contrast scene, start metering and watch as your camera remeters as you move the AF point around…


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## koenkooi (Jul 11, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> It doesn’t do very little. If it didn’t prioritize the selected focus point, like basically every camera in existence, getting properly exposed photos would be ridiculously harder. It’s one of those features that Just Work which is probably why you haven’t even noticed it. And you can easily see it in action, just find a high-contrast scene, start metering and watch as your camera remeters as you move the AF point around…



I think the disconnect here is that when using it with an OVF it has less of an impact than when using it in live-view mode. The difference in results between backlit subjects using my 7D with OVF metering and RP using EVF is substantial. And on the RP I don't have to guess or use image playback to dial in EC.
I guess on a 5D or 1D series the result could've been better, since those have a better metering sensor compared to my 7D.


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## Aussie shooter (Jul 11, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> It doesn’t do very little. If it didn’t prioritize the selected focus point, like basically every camera in existence, getting properly exposed photos would be ridiculously harder. It’s one of those features that Just Work which is probably why you haven’t even noticed it. And you can easily see it in action, just find a high-contrast scene, start metering and watch as your camera remeters as you move the AF point around…


Not saying it doesn't do anything. Just saying that for my photography it does not work. It may prioritize the focus point but it does not prioritize it enough to make a meaningful difference for me. Which is why i have tobuse either spot metering linked to center focus point or most of the time use centre weighted average. Evaluative rarely ever cuts it with birds against a bright sky


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## Sporgon (Jul 11, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Not saying it doesn't do anything. Just saying that for my photography it does not work. It may prioritize the focus point but it does not prioritize it enough to make a meaningful difference for me. Which is why i have tobuse either spot metering linked to center focus point or most of the time use centre weighted average. Evaluative rarely ever cuts it with birds against a bright sky


Sometimes it is enough to get optimum exposure and sometimes, just like any reflective metering, it doesn't produce the exposure that you want, but the evaluation is linked to AF point, and as Sharlin says, it's easy enough to watch it happening. You're not on your own though in not realising that's it's been happening. I recon the majority of users don't realise !!

The metering and it's 'intelligence' is always getting better from generation to generation, and so I would expect the R5 to be better just as the future 5DV will be. It's interesting that Canon have chosen to highlight this in the R5 specs, maybe they too have realised no one knows about the feature. Certainly now, with my 5DS I really don't have to worry about getting a useable exposure, although I'm still one of those people that like to take an incident meter reading if feasible. 

As I'm sure you are aware, Spot metering linked to a single AF point is a really dangerous way of metering and you have to be aware of its limitations, which is probably why Canon only offer it in the 1 series. Spot metering, by its very nature, is intended to be used over multiple areas of the scene to assess an exposure, not as a single spot reading, yet this is exactly what linking it to a single AF point is likely to do, and so a degree of EC is likely to be required anyway, otherwise you could end up with a right royal hash in overall exposure of the image.


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## Aussie shooter (Jul 11, 2020)

Sporgon said:


> Sometimes it is enough to get optimum exposure and sometimes, just like any reflective metering, it doesn't produce the exposure that you want, but the evaluation is linked to AF point, and as Sharlin says, it's easy enough to watch it happening. You're not on your own though in not realising that's it's been happening. I recon the majority of users don't realise !!
> 
> The metering and it's 'intelligence' is always getting better from generation to generation, and so I would expect the R5 to be better just as the future 5DV will be. It's interesting that Canon have chosen to highlight this in the R5 specs, maybe they too have realised no one knows about the feature. Certainly now, with my 5DS I really don't have to worry about getting a useable exposure, although I'm still one of those people that like to take an incident meter reading if feasible.
> 
> As I'm sure you are aware, Spot metering linked to a single AF point is a really dangerous way of metering and you have to be aware of its limitations, which is probably why Canon only offer it in the 1 series. Spot metering, by its very nature, is intended to be used over multiple areas of the scene to assess an exposure, not as a single spot reading, yet this is exactly what linking it to a single AF point is likely to do, and so a degree of EC is likely to be required anyway, otherwise you could end up with a right royal hash in overall exposure of the image.


Oh. Spot metering regularly leads to a general overexposure of the scene. As a matter of fact when I use it it is for specific cases where the only way to get the subject exposed properly is to accept the blowing out of skies etc in really high contrast situations. Think a raven flying against a bright white sky. In cases like this it is a choice between one or the other. Generally however centre weighted average is the better compromise and evaluative works well when you are not shooting against a bright background OR you have really good front lighting on your subject giving your subject a decent brightness relative to the rest of the scene.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 12, 2020)

Sporgon said:


> Sometimes it is enough to get optimum exposure and sometimes, just like any reflective metering, it doesn't produce the exposure that you want, but the evaluation is linked to AF point, and as Sharlin says, it's easy enough to watch it happening. You're not on your own though in not realising that's it's been happening. I recon the majority of users don't realise !!
> 
> The metering and it's 'intelligence' is always getting better from generation to generation, and so I would expect the R5 to be better just as the future 5DV will be. It's interesting that Canon have chosen to highlight this in the R5 specs, maybe they too have realised no one knows about the feature. Certainly now, with my 5DS I really don't have to worry about getting a useable exposure, although I'm still one of those people that like to take an incident meter reading if feasible.
> 
> As I'm sure you are aware, Spot metering linked to a single AF point is a really dangerous way of metering and you have to be aware of its limitations, which is probably why Canon only offer it in the 1 series. Spot metering, by its very nature, is intended to be used over multiple areas of the scene to assess an exposure, not as a single spot reading, yet this is exactly what linking it to a single AF point is likely to do, and so a degree of EC is likely to be required anyway, otherwise you could end up with a right royal hash in overall exposure of the image.


I tried to explain all of this a few days ago but I don’t think I did a very good job because I got nowhere and the thread is still going. Your explanation is much more concise and on point than mine. Let’s see if you manage to be more convincing. I gave up after half a dozen posts.


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