# 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?



## Britman (Sep 17, 2012)

Is no one else bothered by the piss poor max sync speed of the 6D?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 17, 2012)

Not photographers. Maybe armchair spec readers.


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## RuneL (Sep 17, 2012)

Britman said:


> Is no one else bothered by the piss poor max sync speed of the 6D?



to be honset, 1/300 is piss poor to, compared to a leaf shutter that will do 1/1600, so no, I'm not that bothered.


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## Britman (Sep 17, 2012)

It's not good when trying to balance ambient and flash.


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## Ryan_W (Sep 17, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Not photographers. Maybe armchair spec readers.



+ over 9,000


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## Gothmoth (Sep 18, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Not photographers. Maybe armchair spec readers.



well you are obviously no photographer or you would not write such bull$hit.

to lazy to explain it to you in my bad english:

http://strobist.blogspot.de/2012/09/nikon-d600-think-twice-before-you-jump.html

it´s about the D600 but i hope you have the mental capabilities to translate it to the 6D...

and now canon managed to make their new camera even worse.
it´s no real help that the D600 sucks too.. 

and HSS is not always possible (minimum req. is the right hardware) and steals flash power too.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 18, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Not photographers. Maybe armchair spec readers.
> ...



So you, as a _real_ photographer, are truly put out, and your photography is severely impacted, by the loss of *1/6-stop* of sync speed compared to the 5DII? A whole 1/6-stop. Wow. Can you explain what critical difference that 1/6-stop will make in your photography?

The blogger shoots Nikon - their FF digital bodies had 1/250 s, prior to the D600. Those in Canonland gave up that 1/3-stop down to 1/200 s with the 5Dc.


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## Gothmoth (Sep 18, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> So you, as a _real_ photographer, are truly put out, and your photography is severely impacted, by the loss of *1/6-stop* of sync speed compared to the 5DII? A whole 1/6-stop. Wow. Can you explain what critical difference that 1/6-stop will make in your photography?
> 
> The blogger shoots Nikon - their FF digital bodies had 1/250 s, prior to the D600. Those in Canonland gave up that 1/3-stop down to 1/200 s with the 5Dc.



well for exactly that reason i use one of the nikons from the shop when i do strobist shots. 8)

as is said... canon managed to make it even worse then it was before.
shall i applaud them? 
maybe next time they cut it down to 150/s.... well only a marginal problem i guess. :


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 18, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> well for exactly that reason i use one of the nikons from the shop when i do strobist shots.



I'd think the 1D IV would be the best bet, in that case - APS-H, but 1/300 s X-sync speed. Or try PWs, where if you select the offset carefully you can push the shutter close to a stop (1D IV gets to 1/500 s) at full power, without going into HSS territory.


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## Noink Fanb0i (Sep 18, 2012)

Also strange is that even the top-of-the-line Canon FFs can't do 1/300 X-Sync like the 1D3/1D4 APS-H, only 1/250, but the top-end Nikon FFs since the D3 can do it. So that fact belies the Canon apologist's excuse that the bigger travel distance for the shutter blades due to the larger FF sensor is the reason for the slower X-Sync.


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## Unposed-Jeff (Sep 18, 2012)

You do realize that it is more than just exposure. It is the range of flexibility coupled with action stopping speed. Somewhere between sports and weddings we need to have the flexibility to use a wide range of settings. 

Granted the 6D will never be in our repertoire with its overall lack of features, but its the disregard of professional features in a camera that is a plastic "Pro" toy that makes the distaste for individual features such a big issue. Yes we could get by with a slow sync speed, and maybe deal with 1/4000 max shutter speed. But for us, whose entire income comes from photography, we need to nit pick the options our manufacturer offers us as it can influence our work. Now i know most people say it is the artist, not the brush, but these camera's are tools, and these tools can allow us to capture moments in time that can never be retrieved. So a tool that isn't up to the task at hand will never be a viable option for us. The Sync speed may never be a problem for most, nor the max shutter speed. So yes some of us may be "Armchair Spec Readers" but that is because our lively hood depends on the tools we use everyday.


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## bvukich (Sep 18, 2012)

I don't like it, but I can understand why. It's not just an arbitrary limitation to gimp it vs. the 5D3, shutter curtains that can traverse a FF sensor faster (so the slit can be larger in the case of x-sync) need to be lighter and stronger to be reliable. Lighter and stronger means titanium or carbon fiber, and that means expensive. I would guess the 6D has aluminum curtains. When they're trying to hit a price point every cent counts. (although I think they took it a little too far this time)

Cheaper and slower gets us only 1/180 X-sync, 1/4000 max, and 100,000 cycles.


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## theqspeaks (Sep 18, 2012)

Unposed-Jeff said:


> But for us, whose entire income comes from photography, we need to nit pick the options our manufacturer offers us as it can influence our work... So yes some of us may be "Armchair Spec Readers" but that is because our lively hood depends on the tools we use everyday.



If you're a pro, why would you even be looking at the 6D? Don't get me wrong, I think the 1/180th kinda sucks for amateur strobists. But, someone who makes their livelihood from photography probably shouldn't be looking at "entry-level" FF cameras, right? Canon's not marketing this camera to or making it for pros, they're doing it for enthusiasts with lots of spare cash. The 1D's, the 5D's, and the 7D are the pro tools. If I made my living off photography, I wouldn't trust any other Canon DSLRs to be my main tool.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 18, 2012)

Noink Fanb0i said:


> Also strange is that even the top-of-the-line Canon FFs can't do 1/300 X-Sync like the 1D3/1D4 APS-H, only 1/250, but the top-end Nikon FFs since the D3 can do it. So that fact belies the Canon apologist's excuse that the bigger travel distance for the shutter blades due to the larger FF sensor is the reason for the slower X-Sync.



For a purported Noink Fanb0i, you're remarkably ill-informed about your preferred products. Check the specs for the D3, D3x, D3s, and D4, and they all state:

*Flash Sync Speed* Up to 1/250 sec.

So, the _real_ facts, as opposed to those you apparently pulled from some dark orifice, seem to belie not Canon's apologetics, but rather your inability to read a spec sheet.


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 18, 2012)

Noink Fanb0i said:


> Also strange is that even the top-of-the-line Canon FFs can't do 1/300 X-Sync like the 1D3/1D4 APS-H, only 1/250, but the top-end Nikon FFs since the D3 can do it. So that fact belies the Canon apologist's excuse that the bigger travel distance for the shutter blades due to the larger FF sensor is the reason for the slower X-Sync.


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## Unposed-Jeff (Sep 18, 2012)

theqspeaks said:


> Unposed-Jeff said:
> 
> 
> > But for us, whose entire income comes from photography, we need to nit pick the options our manufacturer offers us as it can influence our work... So yes some of us may be "Armchair Spec Readers" but that is because our lively hood depends on the tools we use everyday.
> ...



Thats exactly the problem. This camera is a Pro model, but it sounds like canon is dumbing and watering down the Pro bloodline. And being that our entire living comes from these tools it is imperative that we keep tabs on the new technology even if it isn't the tool for us. It is also good for those of us who use these tools full time as well as all of the part-timers and hobbyists to discuss these tools for our own understanding as well as for the advancement of the products.

We all know that this sync speed and max shutter are not physical limitations but rather Canon introduced limits to separate the 6D from the 5d3. All while making FF affordable to the world minus the AF limits and other assorted suck with this camera. It worries me that cheapening the FF cameras will only make the Professional Photogs life much harder as anyone can now afford a pro camera. The hard part for us will be distinguishing ourselves from the people who have the tools but don't have the foggiest idea how they can really be used to capture so many great moments in time.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 18, 2012)

Unposed-Jeff said:


> We all know that this sync speed and max shutter are not physical limitations but rather Canon introduced limits to separate the 6D from the 5d3.



How do 'we' know that? The 1D X has a shutter capable of 12 fps and 1/250 s X-sync, with 400K cycle durability, and likely a lot of engineering R&D went into that. The 5DIII is 6 fps, 1/200 s X-sync, and 150K durability. The fact that the 6D only goes to 4.5 fps (despite the same Digic5+ with fewer MP to process), and the reduced 100K durability, rather strongly suggest that the slower X-sync is a direct result of the slower, cheaper shutter - a physical limitation. So...you can leave _me_ out of 'we all'.


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## Leadfingers (Sep 18, 2012)

I have to admit.. I don't understand why this is an issue at all.

Based on my (very limited) understanding, your flash is only on for 1/1000th of a second. So it shouldn't matter whether the sync speed is 1/180, 1/200, or 1/500....

What am I missing?


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 18, 2012)

Leadfingers said:


> I have to admit.. I don't understand why this is an issue at all.
> 
> Based on my (very limited) understanding, your flash is only on for 1/1000th of a second. So it shouldn't matter whether the sync speed is 1/180, 1/200, or 1/500....
> 
> What am I missing?



You're not missing anything. If you know what in the hell you're doing, you can really do wonders with high flash sync modes. I agree with you, learn some photography to overcome the base sync speed. I typically just open my aperture a stop to let in more light, then flash away at 1/5000 even. It's not hard.


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## theqspeaks (Sep 18, 2012)

Unposed-Jeff said:


> theqspeaks said:
> 
> 
> > Unposed-Jeff said:
> ...



I disagree that Canon considers this a true "pro" camera. In the press release for the 6D, they call it a "mid-range" camera "designed for advanced amateurs." Yes, the release talks about pro-quality features, but that's likely mostly just marketing--trying to encourage enthusiasts and semi-pros to step up to a more expensive camera. And, considering how much disdain pros have for the 6D already, it's kinda contradictory to claim that the 6D is a "pro model" while at the same time saying that it is totally insufficient for pros.

Regardless, your argument about the 6D making life harder for pros is absurd on its face. If some newb can make better photos on a 6D than you, the Professional Photog, can make on a 5D3, then you're doing something wrong, not Canon. If you can't distinguish your work from people with a 6D who "don't have the foggiest idea" how to use it, what does that say about your skills as a pro? 

Look, I'm not trying to start a flame war or put you down in any way. Obviously, pros needs to keep up on the newest gear to know what tools are available to them for their profession. And, the 6D probably isn't an ideal tool for many pros. But that doesn't mean the 6D is a bad camera. For Canon users, it has significantly lowered the cost of moving into the FF world. And Canon has created the smallest and lightest FF ever (which might appeal to some landscape photogs), and that ain't nothing. 

Just like how for some folks the 7D is/was a better choice than the 5D2, the 6D is gonna be good for some and not for others. If you do strobist, the 6D (and Canons generally) isn't your best bet because of the flash sync. And, going back to the OP's original question, if I was a big strobist enthusiast hoping to upgrade from my Canon crop sensor to a Canon FF, yeah, I'd probably be pissed.


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## ScottyP (Sep 18, 2012)

Noink Fanb0i said:


> Also strange is that even the top-of-the-line Canon FFs can't do 1/300 X-Sync like the 1D3/1D4 APS-H, only 1/250, but the top-end Nikon FFs since the D3 can do it. So that fact belies the Canon apologist's excuse that the bigger travel distance for the shutter blades due to the larger FF sensor is the reason for the slower X-Sync.



Is that gutsy or not? A username that is an anagram for "Nikon Fanboy"??


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## Zlatko (Sep 18, 2012)

Britman said:


> Is no one else bothered by the piss poor max sync speed of the 6D?


High speed sync is still available.


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## aznable (Sep 18, 2012)

Leadfingers said:


> I have to admit.. I don't understand why this is an issue at all.
> 
> Based on my (very limited) understanding, your flash is only on for 1/1000th of a second. So it shouldn't matter whether the sync speed is 1/180, 1/200, or 1/500....
> 
> What am I missing?



easy...the d600 sync at 1/2xx that's more than 1/180


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## bvukich (Sep 19, 2012)

Leadfingers said:


> I have to admit.. I don't understand why this is an issue at all.
> 
> Based on my (very limited) understanding, your flash is only on for 1/1000th of a second. So it shouldn't matter whether the sync speed is 1/180, 1/200, or 1/500....
> 
> What am I missing?



It's because at faster shutter speeds the shutter doesn't expose the entire sensor at the same time, it's just a slit that's open between the two curtains. The x-sync speed is the faster shutter speed where the whole thing is exposed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal-plane_shutter


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 19, 2012)

Right, so at 1/500, open the aperture more. You'll do okay 8)


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## Ewinter (Sep 19, 2012)

> If you're a pro, why would you even be looking at the 6D?



Because not all pros have "made it". I need a 2nd body, I'd like it to be full frame and I can't give up my 7d to make the extra money for the 5dIII. I quite like the idea of the 6D; I also like wireless tethering. I'd rather get a 6d that has limitations I can work around than buy a camera that I then have to drop another £500 on just to get it to tether the way I like.
That £500 is a good amount towards nice glass. 
I'd like a 5d III, sure. But for my business now? It'll be the 6D


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 19, 2012)

Leadfingers said:


> I have to admit.. I don't understand why this is an issue at all.
> 
> Based on my (very limited) understanding, your flash is only on for 1/1000th of a second. So it shouldn't matter whether the sync speed is 1/180, 1/200, or 1/500....
> 
> What am I missing?



What your 'missing' is the way a shutter works. There are two curtains, an exposure is taken with the first curtain opening across the sensor, followed by the second curtain closing across the sensor. But the curtains can only move so fast. The X-sync speed is the fastest shutter speed at which the first curtain completes its traverse before the second curtain has to start. At faster shutter speeds, both curtains are crossing together, and the exposure is a moving 'window' that gets progressively narrower with faster shutter speeds, down to just a thin slit. 

So...at fast shutter speeds, you have moving slit of the sensor exposed, and a flash strobe duration of 1/1000 s to 1/35000 s. That means the flash is only active for a fraction of the curtain 'window' traverse, and you have darker/black (depending on ambient light) bars at the top and bottom of the frame.

The 'solution' is high speed sync (HSS), which allows you to go faster than the X-sync speed. The penalty is a big reduction in flash power.


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## DB (Sep 19, 2012)

As others have said above, if you purchase a more expensive flashgun with HSS, the flash sync issue becomes a non-issue on the 6D (as long as your flash is powerful).

Where the 1/180s becomes a more limiting problem, will be for those owners who purchase a cheaper flash that does not support HSS. In those instances, especially shooting outdoors during daytime where the ambient light is strong the photographer may need to use as fast a shutter speed as his equipment will allow, therefore 1/300s or 1/250s may be better than 1/180s depending on how strong the sunlight is. 

[Remember your aperture setting controls the amount of reflected light or flash, whereas the shutter speed determines the amount of ambient/everywhere light in the exposure - thus adjusting the ratio of flash to natural is done via playing Aperture vs Shutter]

Notwithstanding all of that, if a prospective 6D owner can afford to pony-up 2 grand+ for a camera body, then they can certainly afford to pay another 500 bucks for a decent flash unit like the 600EX

Also remember what Neuro said about shutter mechanism quality (after all we're talking moving parts in an expensive electronic device here) - the 1DX is rated for about 400,000 shutter cycles, so clearly has the best quality parts and a decent x-sync rate, whereas both the 5D3 and 7D are rated at approximately 150,000 actuations (with the 7D mechanism being a modified version of the 1DIIn & 1DIII) hence the 1/200s and 1/250s x-sync speeds respectively. Ergo, given that the new 6D is ONLY rated for 100,000 shutter cycles - the same as most Rebels, Canon obviously believe that the 6D shutter is a bit more fragile, so do not want to stress it too much as well.


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## ScottyP (Sep 19, 2012)

Per David Hobby; "The Strobist":

Hobby rejects the Nikon D600 out-of-hand because it has only 1/200 sync speed. Nice to see someone ragging on Nikon for a change, yet bummer that this is actually faster than the 6D if 1/180 is going to be it.

See article: http://strobist.blogspot.com/2012/09/nikon-d600-think-twice-before-you-jump.html

Hobby relies a lot on the high shutter to overpower ambient light. He says he wants 1/250th. 

Just saying, there's no need to savage the OP. He is in good company on this point.


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## ScottyP (Sep 19, 2012)

ScottyP said:


> Per David Hobby; "The Strobist":
> 
> Hobby rejects the Nikon D600 out-of-hand because it has only 1/200 sync speed. Nice to see someone ragging on Nikon for a change, yet bummer that this is actually faster than the 6D if 1/180 is going to be it.
> 
> ...



Oops. I swear I am not bumping my own post, but I failed to notice the little "update" at the bottom that appeared since I first read this. He gives a quick "Sheeesh!" to the new 6D and the 1/180th.


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 19, 2012)

We have all of these pros on here and NOBODY can figure out how to work around the 1/180s max sync speed?? Sighhhhhhh.

Or, if you're not a pro buying the 6D, then who really cares?


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## Viggo (Sep 19, 2012)

Open the aperture? Oh my...

Try to bring the background down and freeze small movements requires a higher sync. I use my wireless flash outside all the time and going to 1/500s or higher gets me so little power I can't tell if the flash fired. And I use two 580's at full power. If you want to have power and less dof ND-filters can help.

Let's hope Odin makes an Optimized flash sync like Pw's and better so I don't have to spend hours tuning them in software.


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## aj1575 (Sep 19, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Not photographers. Maybe armchair spec readers.





Good point


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## Otara (Sep 19, 2012)

For underwater photographers lower X-sync is often a pain, eg for sunball shots where you're lighting a foreground subject too. The aperture is often already fairly high, so going even higher isnt the preferred solution, and high speed sync isnt an option either.

A small segment of photography and one that probably isnt too interested in the 6D anyhow - the cost of going DSLR is enough that stopping there probably isnt worth it if full frame is whats wanted, and theres the 5D anyhow. But if the sensor is a reasonable jump over the 5D II, there will be a few sad faces, self included.


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## pwp (Sep 19, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Not photographers. Maybe armchair spec readers.



Yes it's been a motivator for the armchair spec readers. But it depends how you work. For plenty of photographers shooting style, any loss of sync speed is noticed and missed, even the drop from 300th to 250th from the 1D4 to the 1DX. In reality the 5D3 sync speed of 200th is barely different from 180th, but the incremental losses require modified technique and reduced flexibility. 

Remember how useful the 500th sync on the original 1D was? Brilliant!

-PW


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## Viggo (Sep 19, 2012)

Here's an example:

He's not moving very fast at all and for "creative effect" this COULD be tolerated, but to me this image is ruined by that arm moving. I can't remember any situation I had that kind of blur on the 1d 4 with flash.


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## kalmiya (Sep 19, 2012)

af option 3: af system at least 7d level
1/200s x-sync


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## risc32 (Sep 19, 2012)

1/180 sucks and so does 1/200th. 1/250 should be the bare minimum but it really sucks also. I have a good understanding of the importance of all this, but a vague understanding as to why we don't have 1/500th or better synch speeds. Some of the early model DSLR's got there, and some of the Nikon's can do even better(the older ones). i have a leaf shutter 6x9 rangefinder that will go to 1/500th, it's from the 80's and probably mostly designed in the 70's. It doesn't even take batteries. why on earth are we not doing better now? YOu might say, yeah, but your rangefinder only goes as fast as 1/500, synch or not. well, i don't care. I don't want to hear it can't be done, do it. either with mechanics, electronics or both. I say we officially end the MP race and heat up the synch speed race! 

BTW- this little rant wasn't brought on with the 6d, it's been building for a few years.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 19, 2012)

risc32 said:


> Some of the early model DSLR's got there, and some of the Nikon's can do even better(the older ones).



Many of those were not FF. With a FF sensor, the curtains have further to traverse. 



risc32 said:


> Some of the early model DSLR's got there, and some of the Nikon's can do even better(the older ones). i have a leaf shutter 6x9 rangefinder that will go to 1/500th, it's from the 80's and probably mostly designed in the 70's. It doesn't even take batteries. why on earth are we not doing better now?



Leaf shutter ≠ focal plane shutter.


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 19, 2012)

Freelancer said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > Open the aperture? Oh my...
> ...



So you can't do it then. Just forget it and never set your shutter above 1/180s if you're using a flash. Good lord. (Rubbing eyes and pulling hair out..........)


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 19, 2012)

Freelancer said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > You're not missing anything. If you know what in the hell you're doing, you can really do wonders with high flash sync modes. I agree with you, learn some photography to overcome the base sync speed. I typically just open my aperture a stop to let in more light, then flash away at 1/5000 even. It's not hard.
> ...



You'll be ok.


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## Gothmoth (Sep 19, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> So you can't do it then. Just forget it and never set your shutter above 1/180s if you're using a flash. Good lord. (Rubbing eyes and pulling hair out..........)



don´t troll!!

i have yet to read something usefull from you in this thread...... if you don´t care then don´t write in this thread.

others do care and there IS a problem with always slower sync speeds.


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 19, 2012)

So say if you really want to use the fill flash outdoors, and you narrow the aperture to lower the shutter speed required, is the problem then because the depth of field won't be optimized? Sorry for my smart*ss earlier posts. So say I'm using fill flash, at f/3.2, and shutter required is 1/800, is the problem here that you don't want to narrow the aperture because of depth of field issues, suppose at a wedding event? I'm just trying to understand the difference between 1/180s and 1/250s sync speeds. Again sorry, did not mean to be so offensive.

Typically outdoors if I'm doing flash I'll set my shutter to the sync speed, in this case 1/250s. If I had to set it at 1/180s is there no way to adjust aperture and/or ISO to accomodate this?


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## Shamus1 (Sep 19, 2012)

One more opinion.... I shoot pro dance, and have a 1DMkIV, 1DMkIII, 5DMkIII, 5DmkII & 7D ... My flashes are multiple 580EX & 580EXII, and recently three 600EX-RT's. I have multiple PW TT5's and know about HSS. My big gripe on the 5D's is the 1/200 x-sync . I have read all of the above.... Most of the time I only use stage lighting is x-sync is not a factor. There are times that I have to shoot a large group of dancers under poor or very low/ uneven light (hence DOF and aperture setting are critical) and often they are quickly moving and require a 1/200 to 1/250 minimum shutter speed. 

Frequently I have to use high iso and the 5DMkIII is amazing. I looked at the 6D as a backup for those situations.

On the rare occasion that flash is used, HHS can be problematic with insufficient power if any distance is involved. As I am usually shooting in a theater situation, using addition flash units are not usually possible. Small increases in shutter speed make a big difference. The difference in a spin if the hand is sharp or blurred. (sometimes the blur is ok)

I realize that the 6D's 1/180 shutter is probable due to physical limitations of a less than premium shutter unit (100,000 life, max 1/4000...) and will not affect most users. The reduction from 1/200 to 1/180 is small but if you compare 1/180 to 1/250, it makes a difference. 

I would have expected 1/200 and a 150,000 life from a $2K FF camera.

If I decide to get one, would probably be used as a personal travel cam, which I think is one of the targeted uses. Wi-Fi without Eye-Fi is nice along with a faster SD reader.


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## Canon-F1 (Sep 19, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> So say if you really want to use the fill flash outdoors



yes... many photographer want that. it´s not as if that is a rare occasion. 



> and you narrow the aperture to lower the shutter speed required, is the problem then because the depth of field won't be optimized?



part of the problem, yes. 
movement, motion blur is another.

1/180s vs. 1/200s does not seem much of a difference.
but if you operate at the edge already with 1/200... it is.




> I'm just trying to understand the difference between 1/180s and 1/250s sync speeds.



you have less leverage in daylight balancing.

ISO effects both daylight and flash.
shutterspeed does not effect the flash power.
there is not much you can do trying to overpower the ambient light fiddling with ISO values.

so you either close the apperture (steals flash power, more DOF) or you use a faster shutterspeed.

i agree that it does not bother all users, but it sure is a concern for serious strobists.


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 19, 2012)

I can see it being a concern if you are doing a bride portrait outside and you have too much background in focus. That would be annoying. I agree, even at 1/250 outside when I shoot, the ISO is already at 100. I didn't mean for fill flash outside to seem rare, haha ;D

Thanks.


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## Seanlucky (Sep 19, 2012)

There was a time when film SLR's had a maximum sync speed of 1/60s, and if you wanted a higher sync speed, you used a medium format system or something with a leaf shutter.

The same logic can easily apply now. If you need a higher sync speed, then use the tool that will give it to you. Sorry folks, not every camera can have every feature.


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## risc32 (Sep 19, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> risc32 said:
> 
> 
> > Some of the early model DSLR's got there, and some of the Nikon's can do even better(the older ones).
> ...



Not to sound like an ass, but I know all that, and i don't care. we can put a man on the moon, but we can't figure out how to get a faster synch speed? I take it you are some sort of doctor or at least a very well educated man. That is great and we are glad you hang here, but surely there is a way to get this done. I see impossible things get done all the time.

bdunbar- HSS will get you the "correct" exposure at whatever f stop shutter speed you need, and it's very handy, but it has limits. i shoot weddings and most of the time i'm standing outside in the sun trying to light a large group of people. say you get an exposure of iso 100 f5.6 at 1/800th. with a camera that has a synch speed of 1/200 i'd be 2 stops over that. when the HSS synch fires it doesn't fire one blast(let's ignore TTL preflash here) when the shutter is completely open, it fires over and over again, at a lower level, each time draining the batteries. After a large shot like that your batteries are strained, and the flash't range is limited more and more as you move past that 1/200th limit. you want to light a group with a larger light source than a direct flash? well, that eats light power. want them all lit with roughly the same amount of light, that means back the light up, and that eats power. that's just for fill. you want to overpower the sun a bit, as i usually do? now your in big trouble. you shutter has to be open for 1/200. the sun is beaming down for 1/200 onto your target. you can't go faster to limit the sun, so you stop down. maybe to f16. cool, now your unflash lit areas are looking nicey nice. Now you just bring up the flash to the level you like. I hope you have some power, as now you are shooting into an f16 sized hole for only 1/200. i use a 580,550,2x430's. most of the time i borrow my helpers 580 and i gang it with my 550/430's as a super "a"channel(gaffer's taped together, really!). when that doesn't work, and i expected it not to work, i haul out my big black box of sun, a speedotron 2400ws powerpack. but it's really a pain to use in the field and the thought of dying or killing someone with it's high voltage isn't nice. if this all seems to be crap. go outside mid sunny day. shoot a target from 10-15ft away with your flash at full power(manual)and full synch speed. then see what you get with hss at 1/250-1/500. if your target is small and you are close(with your light) you will be fine. otherwise.... actually, i've been typing for so long i might even be starting to confuse myself, i hope this is of some use.


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 19, 2012)

That's a great perspective. Thanks and yes, it's highly useful!


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## keithfullermusic (Sep 19, 2012)

i know a lot of people are complaining about this, but i'm not totally sure why.

i use flash(es) ALL THE EFFING TIME, so believe me, i understand the limitations of 1/180. however, this camera is not aimed towards people like that. this is basically a rebel/x0D series camera just FF.

I think the problem is that since its FF people are assuming that it's meant to be a pro body, but it's not. that's what the 1DX and 5D3 are for. If you're doing paid event gigs like weddings then you shouldn't even be considering this camera in my opinion. this thing is for casual shooters who just really want a FF, and that's it.

I don't think that Canon is going out of it's way to cripple this thing just to make the 1dx and 5d3 look better. they are trying to get a FF that is "affordable" and doing so means that they can't add all the other features to it - a high sync speed being one of them.

i'm no engineer, but i'd think that it costs more money to add higher sync speeds because of the components that go into it. i'd also assume that once you get around the 1/200 it starts costing much more to increase it just a little bit.

besides, the only time when this really matters is when you are shooting portraits in bright sunlight - that's the only time that you really need high sync speeds (not only, but pretty much). otherwise, you typically shoot anywhere from 1/20-1/100 in order to bring the background into the shot as well (depending on the room size of course).

either way, if you're doing paid gigs stop looking at this camera. it's meant for casual shooters who really want FF. canon already has bodies aimed at higher-end users.


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## Britman (Sep 19, 2012)

I am shocked at how many people don't get why 1/180s is a bad sync. It might have helped if I'd mention that it's bad for strobist style photography where you are fighting ambient light and flash power. 

Aperture controls flash
Shutter (x-sync) controls ambient

Take the picture below taken with a Fuji X100, the shutter was set to 1/1000s and aperture to f/5.6. If my shutter was 1/180s the sky would be completely washed out. To combat it I'd have to increase the aperture but doing that means I'd have to increase the flash power to a point it would run out of steam, unless you have a very powerful flash.







Yes you can do it with HSS but that would require you to use a bare flash, very harsh light.


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 19, 2012)

I think Keith's statement would still stand though. If you are taking those types of photos, you're not buying a 6D, in all likelihood.

Or just do as my original suggestion that wasn't very helpful: Get a lens with f/0.2 or so and the aperture is so wide you don't require flash 8) 8)


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## SRHelicity (Sep 19, 2012)

keithfullermusic said:


> i use flash(es) ALL THE EFFING TIME, so believe, i understand the limitations of 1/180. however, this camera is not aimed towards people like that. this is basically a rebel/x0D series camera just FF.



I only know a single Rebel owner that has an external flash -- everyone else uses the on-camera flash. That's the thing I don't get about the 6D. A lot of people are talking about how this is aimed at the casual / "soccer mom" photographer. However, why would Canon leave off the on-camera flash in such a case? In addition, if one must use an external flash, why limit it to 1/180s sync speed? In addition, why not add an articulating screen, seen by many (incorrectly, IMO) to be a consumer-line feature?

I also don't see this as the FF upgrade path for 7D owners. One of the primary highlights of the 7D, at the time it was released, was it's very sophisticated AF system. Heck, that's still one of the primary selling points over the other crop cameras. Are many 7D owners who bought it for the awesome AF system really going to go for the 6D, with it's 11 AF points + 1 cross-type? Yes, the AF will work in very low light levels, but it's still an extremely limited AF system for anyone coming from a 7D. Motion tracking with 11 pt AF? Oy.

Maybe it's for landscape photographers who don't use the flash much and who aren't worry much about fancy AF systems. I suspect the high ISO noise performance will be good, though I cannot imagine, for the life of me, that it'd be any better than that from the 1DX or 5D MKIII. After all, Canon wouldn't release a $2100 6D with better noise performance than the recently-released, $3500 (list) 5D MKIII. In addition, I can't imagine that Canon has "fixed" the shadow banding problem common to Canon sensors (see Fred Miranda's nice 5d MKIII vs. D800 comparison for this), otherwise they would have implemented it in the 5D MKIII. 

Is the difference between the sensor in the 60D and the sensor in the 6D really $1100? The AF in the 60D is better, and the 60D has an articulating screen. Really, it looks like only real benefits of the 6D over the 60D are the dual-SD slots, the FF sensor, and the built-in WiFi and GPS. I know Canon sells add-on GPS units for ridiculous amounts of money, but GPS units are extremely cheap now-a-days, so it's not like adding GPS to a camera really costs Canon much money.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 19, 2012)

risc32 said:


> Not to sound like an ass, but I know all that, and i don't care. we can put a man on the moon, but we can't figure out how to get a faster synch speed? I take it you are some sort of doctor or at least a very well educated man. That is great and we are glad you hang here, but surely there is a way to get this done. I see impossible things get done all the time.



If that was your intent, you missed the mark just a bit. 

Sure, it's possible. So are cars that get 150 mpg, cures for cancer and the common cold, and provision of food and potable water to all people on the planet. It's just a question of will and resources. 

If Canon's entire customer base demanded higher X-sync, we'd get it. But 4 pages of bitching about this vs. the 26-page and growing thread bitching about the other perceived 6D shortcomings pretty clearly says that people who know what X-sync speed is, much less care about it, are in the minority - and expending R&D resources to satisfy a minority of your customers does not make good business sense.


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## keithfullermusic (Sep 19, 2012)

@SRHelicity - agree that this isn't an upgrade from a 7D, which is why I said this is a FF Rebel/x0D series camera. The point about the flash is good, but I think they plan on selling that little 270EX or whatever it's called to go with it.


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## paulc (Sep 19, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> The blogger shoots Nikon - their FF digital bodies had 1/250 s, prior to the D600. Those in Canonland gave up that 1/3-stop down to 1/200 s with the 5Dc.



It's actually only 1/160 when wireless on the 5Dc.


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## Canon-F1 (Sep 19, 2012)

keithfullermusic said:


> i know a lot of people are complaining about this, but i'm not totally sure why.
> 
> i use flash(es) ALL THE EFFING TIME, so believe me, i understand the limitations of 1/180. however, this camera is not aimed towards people like that. this is basically a rebel/x0D series camera just FF.



this is such a stupid argument..... how will you know what people are interested in the 6D?

or better what people would be intersted in cheaper FF body.


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## Canon-F1 (Sep 19, 2012)

Seanlucky said:


> There was a time when film SLR's had a maximum sync speed of 1/60s, and if you wanted a higher sync speed, you used a medium format system or something with a leaf shutter.
> 
> The same logic can easily apply now. If you need a higher sync speed, then use the tool that will give it to you. Sorry folks, not every camera can have every feature.



yeah well there was a time only the ultra rich could afford a car or a telephone. :


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## Canon-F1 (Sep 19, 2012)

SRHelicity said:


> I only know a single Rebel owner that has an external flash -- everyone else uses the on-camera flash.



as that would mean anything.. i know a lot of rebel owners who use an external flash.

i started (digital) with a rebel and my second buy was a 430 EX.


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## Canon-F1 (Sep 19, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> Or just do as my original suggestion that wasn't very helpful: Get a lens with f/0.2 or so and the aperture is so wide you don't require flash 8) 8)



sorry to see you still don´t get it....


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## Canon-F1 (Sep 19, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> If Canon's entire customer base demanded higher X-sync, we'd get it. But 4 pages of bitching about this vs. the 26-page and growing thread bitching about the other perceived 6D shortcomings



26 pages / 7 shortcomings = 3.71 pages PER shortcoming. 

now we have 5 pages about this specific shortcoming.... 

so just looking at the absolute page numbers... does not show the whole picture.
it´s very simple and bad rhetoric.

and i don´t know why people like you, who don´t care, try to tell other people what THEIR bitching is worth?

i don´t care about a CF card slot that much... now you won´t see me telling others to just use SD cards and shut up or ignore the 6D... because it´s no camera for them.


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 19, 2012)

Canon-F1 said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Or just do as my original suggestion that wasn't very helpful: Get a lens with f/0.2 or so and the aperture is so wide you don't require flash 8) 8)
> ...



I GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IT'S A JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SORRY TO SEE YOU DON'T GET IT!

GO HAVE A BEER!


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 19, 2012)

Everybody who is needlessly getting so worked up over this thread:


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