# Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 5, 2017)

```
I’ll lead by saying that a replacement for the Canon EOS 5DS R will not be coming in 2017, this is potentially a Q3/Q4 2018 camera.</p>
<p>Anything this far out is generally considered unlikely to come to fruition, but there have been exceptions and specifications always evolve and change for camera bodies.</p>
<p><strong>This is what we’re told about the EOS 5DS / EOS 5DS R Replacement:</strong></p>

<ul>
<li>Working prototypes are currently being tested.</li>
<li>The “5DS” series will be amalgamated into a single camera.</li>
<li>No low pass filter.</li>
<li>All new 60.1mp image sensor.</li>
<li>A new type of low megapixel mode.</li>
<li>4K video (video features will be basic)</li>
<li>Identical body to the EOS 5D Mark IV.</li>
<li>Focus peaking present, may appear first on another DSLR.</li>
<li>Expect all the other features such as DPAF, Wifi, Touchscreen and GPS.</li>
</ul>
<p>We’ve heard other rumblings about a high megapixel replacement, and that these cameras won’t be on 5 year product cycles. I too expect to see this new camera some time in 2018.</p>
<p>*<strong>Update 09/04/2017 @ 16:56 EST: </strong>Keep in mind that Canon uses APS-H sensors in some test bodies and this can affect pixel count.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
<div style="font-size:0px;height:0px;line-height:0px;margin:0;padding:0;clear:both"></div>
```


----------



## Dylan777 (Sep 5, 2017)

Sounds like a7rIII and A9r are coming


----------



## unfocused (Sep 5, 2017)

I'm actually surprised that the rumored megapixel count is that low. If accurate, it would actually be just under the pixel count of the 80D. Assuming they use the same sensor again in both bodies, that would mean a 7DIII at about 23.5 mp. I was actually expecting 28 mp for the 7D and 72 mp for the 5DS.

Not disappointed, just a bit surprised if this is accurate.

As for focus peaking "may appear first on another DSLR," I'm wondering what the other DSLR would be. Guessing that would be the 7DIII, which also would mean that it might come before the 5DS.

Regardless, it will be fun to have some new rumors floating around over the next year.


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 5, 2017)

Canon Rumors said:


> We’ve heard other rumblings about a high megapixel replacement, and that these cameras won’t be on 5 year product cycles. I too expect to see this new camera some time in 2018.



canon never really had 5 year product cycles. there's alot we can guess that the products were delayed getting new sensor fabrication processes working smoothly for DPAF sensors for full frame and also DPAF sensors in general. without ready sensors, no body's going to get released. canon tried that with the T5i. trying it again with the 6D as well.

also this seems to fail the sniff test with canon already actively demo'ing a 120MP camera in a 5D body around 2 years now. is there going to be two 5DsrII's? a 60mp and a 120mp version?


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 5, 2017)

I like the sound of the modest mp bump.

BUT, if it has on chip ADC type base IQ improvements I'll get one whatever else is or isn't on the spec sheet, if it doesn't I won't.

These 1DS model range replacements really are about one thing and everything else is iceing and cherries. Don't care about fps though more than 2 will beat out most medium format, don't want a $916 additional 2 fps option either. Don't care one iota for 4k or video in general from this model. GPS has become a nice additional way of sorting images so like that. I'd prefer an Ethernet port over headphone and mic ports, tethering is way more important than video for this particular model. If it has to have two card slots make them the same type and spec goddamit! Fully functional touch screen, Canon are the best at touch screens so run with it. BUT, Canon, give us the base IQ you have shown you can.......


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 5, 2017)

I don't think we'll see a commercial 120MP camera in a standard DSLR format. The 50mpx 5DSR is already pushing some of the L lenses to their optical limits, and a 120mpx sensor would mean a VERY restricted selection of lenses that would be appropriate for it - probably mostly new, very expensive ones.

We might see a 120mpx specialist camera in the same sort of form factor as the ludicrously expensive ME20F-SH at a similarly ludicrous price, just for those who absolutely need 120mpx. 


What I'd like to see is them switch to a USB-C 3.1 connector instead of the horribly fragile USB3 connector the 5DSR has now. That would solve the tethering problems for most people.


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 5, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> I don't think we'll see a commercial 120MP camera in a standard DSLR format. The 50mpx 5DSR is already pushing some of the L lenses to their optical limits, and a 120mpx sensor would mean a VERY restricted selection of lenses that would be appropriate for it - probably mostly new, very expensive ones.
> 
> We might see a 120mpx specialist camera in the same sort of form factor as the ludicrously expensive ME20F-SH at a similarly ludicrous price, just for those who absolutely need 120mpx.
> 
> ...



except I've already had 3.1 connectors fail. hard to say they are more reliable.

and like I said, canon's already been actively demo'ing the 120MP DSLR for the past two years and have actually stated "it's coming.. " it's actually in development now since sept 2016, as a 120MP DSLR. Again, that's not even a rumor, it's already been stated by canon. So what there's going to be two more different high resolution 5D's coming out? that seems unlikely. 

and you're wrong on the lenses, you're into the world of oversampling. every lens will improve even the worst.


----------



## snoke (Sep 5, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> BUT, if it has on chip ADC type base IQ improvements I'll get one whatever else is or isn't on the spec sheet, if it doesn't I won't.



This is it. Nothing else matter.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We’ve heard other rumblings about a high megapixel replacement, and that these cameras won’t be on 5 year product cycles. I too expect to see this new camera some time in 2018.
> ...



It could pass the sniff test in that the 5DS2 could have been considered weak in FPS (yes, I know that wasn't its priority mission), so Canon upped it to 7 fps and needed consider the strain of higher mp files, especially if it doesn't change the cards used. 

The reason that doesn't sound necessarily crazy is that the competition may by next year have truly swamped the 5d4. Nikon 850 seems to have. So having a 60mp 7fps Canon body might be a handy thing for them. That might be a better answer to Nikon than a 30mp 7 fps camera + a 100mp 4.5 fps camera.

Not saying I believe the rumor, but I wouldn't eliminate it for its smell. As for the demo tech, we have long lists of precedents of tech demos that never became Canon products, or did so 3-5 years after initially anticipated. 

Were this to happen, the key differentiator between the 5ds and 5d series would be low light limited/better resolution versus all-around capacity. That might not be a bad strategy were you to attempt to get 5d owners to buy a second body. Which would have worked better had the 5d4 come with 9 fps, as it should have. 

PS: Agree with comments above regarding ADC being the most important "feature."


----------



## mmeerdam (Sep 5, 2017)

technically it would be a 120 MP body. Dual pixels though. I am not suprised to hear it could be 60. Sounds very plausible. Canon is not as good as Sony/Nikon maximising low light performance (by BSI) and they will not allow themselves to sacrifice too much high iso performance compared to the d850 and the upcoming high MP Sony. 60 will be class leading compared to Nikon by a safe margin. They probably know what sony is up to and they will still lead or accept 2nd place as it's not really that relevant for real world usage compared to iso performance. It would surprise me if sony makes a pixelcount jump way above the 60 mark. There seems to be a plateau in performance around these mp counts and 50+ looks to be well enough for most use cases. Truly higher would only demand even better glass and Canon as wel as Sony just released a whole set of lenses that would probably perform well on 50-60 mp bodies but would not clearly benefit a near 100mp sensor.


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 5, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



5DSr isn't really a D850 direct on competitor. canon will shift it and sell it based upon the Mp's and quality of output.

I think if they get it over 3-4 they'll be happy. dual digic 7's should be able to get it around 3.5 to 4 fps given they do 9fps at 24mp already.

and you didn't really answer the actively demo'ing part. they aren't going to change this late in the process, the sensor and the core featureset of the camera.


[email protected] said:


> The reason that doesn't sound necessarily crazy is that the competition may by next year have truly swamped the 5d4. Nikon 850 seems to have. So having a 60mp 7fps Canon body might be a handy thing for them. That might be a better answer to Nikon than a 30mp 7 fps camera + a 100mp 4.5 fps camera.



I woudn't be surprised if canon does an "n" upgrade to the 5D Mark IV. incorporate the video changes, increase it's core fps,etc.

canon in the past has competed with nikon on mp's over fps. D700 as a good example.


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 5, 2017)

mmeerdam said:


> technically it would be a 120 MP body. Dual pixels though.



canon's never measured or discussed a sensor that way, and the raws from the camera where over 210MB.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2017)

*120 mp would just make people change to Sigma glass*

I wonder if the business modeling shows that having a 100+ mp sensor would cause many people to adopt Sigma lenses, breaking the stigma on third party glass for the area of the market to which it still holds. 

I shall now retreat to my fireproof bunker.


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 5, 2017)

*Re: 120 mp would just make people change to Sigma glass*



[email protected] said:


> I wonder if the business modeling shows that having a 100+ mp sensor would cause many people to adopt Sigma lenses, breaking the stigma on third party glass for the area of the market to which it still holds.
> 
> I shall now retreat to my fireproof bunker.



heh. that's the assumption that sigma art lenses are actually better overall then their canon correspondants.

DLO in camera and also in DPP would have a HUGE bearing on this high density files, as they will mathematically devolute diffraction effects.

IMO, i'd never consider using a third party lens on a high mp body simply because of that reason.

also no one is really going to view images at 100% with a 120Mp sensor unless they are completely crazy.

however images printed at the same size for a 40mp sensor (looking at you nikon) or a 50mp sensor (looking at you 5dsr) compared to a 120mp sensor will be significantly better for the 120mp sensor regardless of lens.

while the center portion can be used to get a "digital zoom" effect down to m43's it actually removes for the first time the benefit of m43's entirely from the discussion.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2017)

*Crazy idea*

I don't want to get my hopes up, but here's a crazy idea. 

Perhaps the 60 instead of 120 megapixels is due to a new type of dual-pixel AF technology, where they are using two full pixels instead of two photodiodes within each pixel. Two individual pixels could be married together virtually in software to create the DP AF effect. 

That - I believe - would double the light per diode reading and potentially do two important things:
1) Allow better image quality
2) Increase the parallax between diodes, making the DP RAW features much more useful.

It would, however, require a crazy 120mp sensor. Just saying.


----------



## mmeerdam (Sep 5, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> mmeerdam said:
> 
> 
> > technically it would be a 120 MP body. Dual pixels though.
> ...



It's factual measuring how many independent photosites (is that the right word?) there are. Canon just choose to implement a circuit that combines the output per 2 (or have them separate as a dual pixel raw file). It's more the microlens and color filter array on top and how the data is subsequently interpreted that makes it a 60mp sensor.

There are still 120 million light sensing pixels on there. Even if they don't choose to market it that way.


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 5, 2017)

*Re: Crazy idea*



[email protected] said:


> I don't want to get my hopes up, but here's a crazy idea.
> 
> Perhaps the 60 instead of 120 megapixels is due to a new type of dual-pixel AF technology, where they are using two full pixels instead of two photodiodes within each pixel. Two individual pixels could be married together virtually in software to create the DP AF effect.
> 
> ...



again, they called it a 120MP camera, with 120 effective MP's... the same way they have called every other camera. this was in a press announcement. they've demo'ed the camera. people have already checked the raw size in preview (and resolution) I'd honestly give a higher CR rating to a published press announcement from canon versus a CR2 rating rumor, but that's just me 

two full pixels wouldn't work for DPAF. the reason it works is because the pixel is split in half and the left pixel is "turned around" from the right one.

also, 

if canon is going for ultimate IQ. DPAF is the last thing they should be implementing. DPAF costs probably around 1/3 to 1/2EV performance off the base sensor going by the only few samples and comparisions we have of similar technology points. (70D to T6i sensor performance)

that's another reason it really doesn't pass the sniff test. I can't see this being DPAF if it's the "ultimate DR/landscape/MP camera". the two really don't combine.


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 5, 2017)

mmeerdam said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > mmeerdam said:
> ...



right and is the 5d mark iv called a 60mp camera?


----------



## mmeerdam (Sep 5, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> mmeerdam said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



it's not. But there is 60mp worth of individual pixel data in a 5d4 dual pixel raw file. That data has to come from somewhere doesn't it ;-). I invite you to manually count it if you don't believe me  .


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 5, 2017)

mmeerdam said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > mmeerdam said:
> ...



so canon isn't calling the 5D Mark IV that, but they are going to change their entire convention with the 5DsR.

Right.

not to mention, why is there DPAF involved in this camera anyways. unless it turns out it's a mirrorless camera, there's no way i'd want to see a DPAF sensor on a ultimate landscape/dr/mp body.

it makes no sense, you're losing around 1/3 to 1/2 EV just for splitting the pixels in half and adding the extra switch per pixel pair, for no reason because no one is buying this for video.

this camera is going against the FUji and the Nikon DSLR's .. it's got to have it's DR issues in order, and a higher effective DR than the IV has.


----------



## mmeerdam (Sep 5, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> mmeerdam said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



Are you actually that stupid or just acting dumb? I'm not saying they will call it that. I'm just arguing 60 is very plausible as we know they are able to make sensors with 120 million pixels in some form on it. Which is exacly 2 times 60 million dual pixels. I'm not replying to this anymore. We all know what's been out there by Canon for the last year. Nobody needs you to remind us what Canon calls stuff or doesn't call stuff. Let's see you return with some logical constructive insight instead of mindless nay saying.


----------



## SecureGSM (Sep 5, 2017)

*Re: 120 mp would just make people change to Sigma glass*

with 120Mp sensor shooting hendheld with non stabilised lenses at slower than 1/1000s shutter speed is out of question. Except some exotic UWA glass. 



[email protected] said:


> I wonder if the business modeling shows that having a 100+ mp sensor would cause many people to adopt Sigma lenses, breaking the stigma on third party glass for the area of the market to which it still holds.
> 
> I shall now retreat to my fireproof bunker.


----------



## RGF (Sep 5, 2017)

yawn

12 months out.

uninspired specs.

in the end, I suspect the camera will be very different than current posting


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 5, 2017)

*Re: 120 mp would just make people change to Sigma glass*



SecureGSM said:


> with 120Mp sensor resolution shooting hendheld with non stabilised lenses at slower than 1/1000s shutter speed is out of question. Except some exotic UWA glass.



:

shooting for the same print size as with a 5DSr II will yeld the same shutter speeds as you are currently using with the 5DSr.

do you have to shoot everything above 1/1000th of a second with a 20mp 1" sensor camera? or a Olympus 20MP m43 camera?

how do they manage?


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 5, 2017)

mmeerdam said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > mmeerdam said:
> ...



Are you actually that stupid or just acting dumb applies to you more than me.

it's not very realistic because it's not what they are doing now with DPAF sensors, even one that they are outputting both halfs of the sensor (the Mark IV with dual pixel RAW). so if they don't call a camera they are already outputting both halfs a 60mp sensor, why would they all of a sudden call it that way with another one? not to mention that would give you twice the resolution in the horizontal direction only. so it would a pretty stupid idea 

not sure what's so bloody hard to figure out here. a 60mp DPAF sensor is NOT 120mp effective pixels on output. good lord some people.

not to mention prior comments. DPAF on this camera does not pass the sniff test either.

neither does a 2.2x (or whatever that would end up being) crop for 4K output as well.


----------



## jeanluc (Sep 5, 2017)

I hope the specs are true.

A 60MP sensor, with on-chip ADC and everything else they've done to the 5D4 would be awesome. The new sensor tech makes 5d4 files as good as the D810 with a little less resolution... really minimal meaningful difference from my experience with both.

Even if they left it at 50MP and improved everything else it would be an even greater landscape camera. (The 5D4 and D810 already are, as is the 5DSR.)

DPAF in my opinion is a must. It rocks. I would not want a camera without it after using it (on the 5D4 and M5) and the 5D3/SR/D810 without it. Assuming you shoot your landscapes on a tripod using live view, it basically means AFMA doesn't matter. And with 50+ MP of resolution, that is a big deal. In fact I think it's one of the biggest things a mirrorless camera offers over DSLR's.

Obviously AFMA still matters; just not if you are using live view particularly with DPAF.

Also, files bigger than 50 Mp would make most computers very....very...slow....


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 5, 2017)

jeanluc said:


> it basically means AFMA doesn't matter.



that's not exactly true. phase detect on sensor does not get around focus shift. Sony's been having all sorts of problems with this, which is the reason they currently AF stopped down.

I do believe that DPAF profiles try to take this into account, but they probably won't work with 3rd party lenses as well either since they mimic other canon lenses. however can't be a perfect science.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 5, 2017)

mmeerdam said:


> There are still 120 million light sensing pixels on there. Even if they don't choose to market it that way.





rrcphoto said:


> a 60mp DPAF sensor is NOT 120mp effective pixels on output.



Exactly. All of the dual pixels are 'split' in the same direction, so instead of the normal 3:2 aspect ratio, the non-exisent 120 MP output would have a squished 3:1 aspect ratio. 

Say you used the new 120 MP 5DsR II to take a picture of the original 5DsR and a 50/1.2L. Would look pretty cool! Maybe mmeerdam wants all his 120 MP pictures to look like that. :


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 5, 2017)

The question probably boils down to:

Which do you want more, A 60 mpx sensor with the ISO performance of the 80D, or a 120mpx sensor with significantly poorer ISO performance (laws of physics)?

Essentially the 5DSR mark 1 uses the same sensor tech as the 7D Mark II, but scaled up to full frame (same pixel pitch). This would seem to be the same based on the APS-C 24mpx sensor (give or take a megapixel or two for marketing/rounding reasons) so one would assume it's based on the same tech. Whether that is still the best tech in a year's time is of course anyone's guess. But who knows what the eventual camera will be.

And, of course, a 120mpx sensor will have a speed measured in frames per week 

Jolyon


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 5, 2017)

Note on above: with downsampling a 120mpx sensor should, in theory, give the same DR as a 60mpx sensor, so it's not all bad. But still, it's going to mean you are starting with something that generates ridiculous raw files that you'll almost always need to downsample to get something sharp enough to use.

And remember all magazines and reviewers will pixel peek to show the ghastly noise and resolution at 120mpx, regardless of whether in practical use it offers a benefit or not. 

Also, unless I'm missing something, the 120mpx sensor previously demoed didn't have DPAF, and I can't imagine much demand for a new body without DPAF now except a very very specialist one.


----------



## snoke (Sep 5, 2017)

*Re: Crazy idea*



rrcphoto said:


> if canon is going for ultimate IQ. DPAF is the last thing they should be implementing. DPAF costs probably around 1/3 to 1/2EV performance off the base sensor going by the only few samples and comparisions we have of similar technology points. (70D to T6i sensor performance)



60MP FF DSLR = 15MP APS-C DSLR + DPAF.

If real pixel small, maybe not divide pixel.

Also say "new low MP raw mode."
If new low MP raw mode use pixel bin ... follow?


----------



## Talys (Sep 5, 2017)

I can't believe that people are calling a 10 megapixel bump low/modest.

I would far prefer 60 superior megapixels to today's 50, than 75 megapixels that are the same quality as the current 5DSr. Also, I would prefer for onboard RAW preview processing to be as fast it is now for 30 megapixel files, rather than annoyingly slower.

Not that I'm really likely be in the market for either, but who knows, it's Q3/4... maybe Santa will be nice   




jolyonralph said:


> The question probably boils down to:
> 
> Which do you want more, A 60 mpx sensor with the ISO performance of the 80D, or a 120mpx sensor with significantly poorer ISO performance (laws of physics)?



I definitely don't want 80D ISO performance. I want a 60megapixel sensor with ISO performance like the 6DII  ISO 5000 on 6DII cleans up better than ISO 800 on 80D.


----------



## SecureGSM (Sep 5, 2017)

*Re: 120 mp would just make people change to Sigma glass*

It was only a joke that failed to impress unfrotunately :-X



rrcphoto said:


> SecureGSM said:
> 
> 
> > with 120Mp sensor resolution shooting hendheld with non stabilised lenses at slower than 1/1000s shutter speed is out of question. Except some exotic UWA glass.
> ...


----------



## benique (Sep 5, 2017)

The low pixel mode sounds really interesting. For most situations 20-30mpx are enought and the filesizes of the bigger files are just a pain to handle.


----------



## Talys (Sep 5, 2017)

benique said:


> The low pixel mode sounds really interesting. For most situations 20-30mpx are enought and the filesizes of the bigger files are just a pain to handle.



I could not agree more. If the low megapixel mode means better, downsampled megapixels... that would be really exciting.


----------



## mistaspeedy (Sep 5, 2017)

I think most people have forgotten that Canon has also been developing a 250 megapixel sensor, and that it is smaller than full frame (APS-H) !
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/01/10/canon-continues-developing-their-250-megapixel-aps-h-sensor

Long story short, if you do the math, this equals 250 * 1.57 = ~394 megapixels for a full frame sensor!

They could do a 200 megapixel sensor AND have dual pixel technology.

Obviously this is all a long way off, but in order to aid in the discussion of what is and what is not possible... these two options are totally possible:

60 megapixel sensor with dual pixel technology (120 million pixels)
120 megapixel sensor with dual pixel technology (240 million pixels)

What about framerate? Surely such high megapixel counts would be stuck at 1-2 fps?
NOPE
http://www.popphoto.com/canons-250-megapixel-aps-h-sensor-shoots-5-fps-at-30x-4k-resolution

That 250 megapixel sensor could do 5 FPS back in 2015.

Again doing some more math....
250 megapixels @ 5 FPS
125 megapixels @ 10 FPS
62.5 megapixels @ 20 FPS

Now it is all just a matter of balancing the megapixel count, image quality, shooting speed, features (dual pixel, ADC etc) into a final product.

- So not matter what sensor Canon releases, you can expect 5 FPS minimum unless it is some sort of super niche, no video, no dual pixel, all out stills IQ camera that many seem to want, but Canon refuses to release.

Some other examples of what is going on in the industry:
Nikon D850: 45 megapixels @ 9 FPS = 405 megapixels / second
Panasonic GH5 - 18 megapixels @ 30fps = 540 megapixels / second


----------



## Random Orbits (Sep 5, 2017)

mistaspeedy said:


> I think most people have forgotten that Canon has also been developing a 250 megapixel sensor, and that it is smaller than full frame (APS-H) !
> http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/01/10/canon-continues-developing-their-250-megapixel-aps-h-sensor
> 
> Long story short, if you do the math, this equals 250 * 1.57 = ~394 megapixels for a full frame sensor!
> ...



I'm guessing the trick is running it off the limited energy stored in the current batteries.


----------



## mistaspeedy (Sep 5, 2017)

I sure there are many limitations, issues and compromises that need to be made before we get a product release of any kind.

This new 60 megapixel rumor could certainly be true with the technology that has already been released in the 80D. Zero technical challenges getting it to market. We'll see what happens.


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 5, 2017)

Talys said:


> I definitely don't want 80D ISO performance. I want a 60megapixel sensor with ISO performance like the 6DII  ISO 5000 on 6DII cleans up better than ISO 800 on 80D.



That's because of the significantly larger pixel pitch on the 6D II (5.74um vs 3.75um on the 80D)

High quality ISO, high resolution, made by Canon. Choose any two


----------



## cpsico (Sep 5, 2017)

If this was an improved version of the 5div new sensor geared purely to high IQ and dynamic range in the lower ISO I would buy this in a heartbeat


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 5, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> The question probably boils down to:
> 
> Which do you want more, A 60 mpx sensor with the ISO performance of the 80D, or a 120mpx sensor with significantly poorer ISO performance (laws of physics)?



not true at all. because you ignored oversampling and the fact that if you re-sampled and NR'ed the 120MP data down to 60MP you'd have a cleaner image than the 60MP native.

laws of physics don't take into account sampling theory or post processed NR.

even if you just showed the two images side by side at the same image size, the 120Mp would look cleaner.

what you fully won't make up with oversampling is DR because canon doesn't use BSI.


----------



## mistaspeedy (Sep 5, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> not true at all. because you ignored oversampling and the fact that if you re-sampled and NR'ed the 120MP data down to 60MP you'd have a cleaner image than the 60MP native.



Exactly...

People forget that the 5DsR had the BEST (low ISO) dynamic range of any Canon camera released at the time. But downsampling is needed in order to see this (if viewing on PC)... or just print at the same size as another Canon camera.


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 5, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> not true at all. because you ignored oversampling and the fact that if you re-sampled and NR'ed the 120MP data down to 60MP you'd have a cleaner image than the 60MP native.



Read my subsequent message - I already dealt with this.

I'd love a 120mpx camera, but I don't think there's enough demand for it, because it will be a pain to work with such huge files, it'll be slow and you'll have to downsample almost everything to make it worthwhile.


----------



## Daan Stam (Sep 5, 2017)

So.... that should mean focus peaking is in the 90d???


----------



## midluk (Sep 5, 2017)

I hope the "Identical body to the EOS 5D Mark IV" part is not true. As a high resolution camera that is often used in live view on a tripod, an up-down tilting screen would be really useful.


----------



## Mancubus (Sep 5, 2017)

Now this is finally getting interesting.

I want to change my 5D3 for something newer, but:

- 5DSR has no touch screen
- 5D4 has too strong AA filter
- 1DX II is too expensive

For 95% of my work 20mp is enough. If this 5DSR2 has an option for a similar resolution keeping a good image quality, then it's definitely the camera for me. I don't need speed so 5fps would do.

I'm looking for:
- DR improvement over 5D4
- a lower mp (20-24) raw option with some good downsampling for maximum quality and reduced noise
- touch screen
- PLEASE retire the DAMN old SD card for the second slot, make it UHS-II ffs
- NO AA filter

Under 4000usd please.


----------



## traveller (Sep 5, 2017)

A 60-ish megapixel sensor would effectively be the 24MP 80D sensor upscaled to full frame. Shove that in a 5DIV body, just like the 5DS(R) was an upscaled 7DII sensor in a modified 5DIII body, and you have a very plausible 5DSII rumour. 

The question is whether this would be enough in a year's time to tempt people to stay the course with Canon. A 60MP, 5fps 5DSII in a 5DIV spec body represents what I regard as the default update, as it simply combines technologies that Canon already has in production. Unfortunately, whilst this would have sounded awesome just a couple of months ago, it already seems a touch pedestrian versus the Nikon D850. I also expect that Sony will be updating the A7R series next year (or perhaps even bringing out an A9R); I suspect this will be pretty impressive, judging by the A9 and the oft-overlooked A99II. 

I see three possibilities for the 5DSII: 

[list type=decimal]
[*]5DIV body with a 60MP (-ish) sensor (80D sensor upscaled) at 5fps
[*]5DIV body with very high resolution sensor (>80MP) at 5fps
[*]New body: 

60MP(+?)
7fps
0.76x viewfinder from 1-series (bonus points for hybrid, or at least hot-shoe wired for external EVF)
tilting LCD
upgraded 4K video specs -I'm no video expert, but perhaps: a better codec; C-Log (without paid upgrade!); larger sensor area used (smaller crop factor)
a few pleasant surprises perhaps!  
[/list]

The above are arranged in (descending) order of what I believe to be weakest to strongest order... and in order of most to least likely!


----------



## traveller (Sep 5, 2017)

Mancubus said:


> Now this is finally getting interesting.
> 
> I want to change my 5D3 for something newer, but:
> 
> ...



Dude, given the specifications that you're asking for, I really think that the 5DIV is a great fit for you! 


I don't think that you are going to get Canon to produce another 5-series body with the 1DXII sensor, so you'll have to live with 30MP. I don't see how your complaint about the AA filter on the 5DIV sits alongside your complaint of excessive sensor resolution... Downsizing and proper sharpening will achieve everything that you are asking for in terms of resolution, edge acuity and DR (not that the 5DIV is a slouch on any of these counts at native resolution) -you can even make an action to batch this in PS/LR. 
The 5DIV already has the (very well implemented) touch screen interface you request. 
I'm not sure what you are asking for with regard to the storage card media, as you are asking for Canon to dump the SD card, but then ask for UHS-II, which is an SD card standard


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 5, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > not true at all. because you ignored oversampling and the fact that if you re-sampled and NR'ed the 120MP data down to 60MP you'd have a cleaner image than the 60MP native.
> ...



then you use sRAW. which is a 2x2 approx bin. if I recall which would be 30MP.

I regularly process and manipulate bigger pano files that make 120MP look tiny. I don't see the problem on any real modern computer nowadays.


----------



## masterpix (Sep 5, 2017)

The main issues that this camera will need to face are:

Sharpness of the lenses and hand shaking, which is a factor of the pixel size on the sensor, the more pixels, the less tolerance the sensor is to lens "mistakes" and hand held movement, it will limit the benefits of image stabilizers and will make non IS lenses impossible to use. 

The other issue is high ISO, the 5Ds/sr maximal Iso was 1600 which is not much (in some cases, to get a high speed shooting (animals, children "on the loose" etc) one need to get as high ISO as possible to be able to capture the moment. The 5D has high ISO over 32000, the 7DII had 16000. High ISO means also less noise in lower ISO, to shooting at 1600 with the 5D is no match to the 5Ds/sr at the same ISO.

Once Canon engineers will resolve those two, then it will be the camera of choice for many, although for many practical reasons, 20-24MP and above it way too much for the general photographer (or their Hard-Drive).

They will have a lot to work on, especially when Nikon and Sony are gaining "speed" on those issues.


----------



## mistaspeedy (Sep 5, 2017)

5Ds(R) ISO range is up to ISO 6400 native, with 12800 expanded.

But yeah, I agree that a higher native maximum ISO range would be good to have (along with better performance at the more moderate 'high' ISOs)


----------



## Maiaibing (Sep 5, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> I'd love a 120mpx camera, but I don't think there's enough demand for it, because it will be a pain to work with such huge files, it'll be slow and you'll have to downsample almost everything to make it worthwhile.



You are confused. There is no need to "downsample" anything - ever. "Downsampling" is not something any photographer "does" with his/her pictures and has nothing to do with how you view your results on screen or in print - its only - and exclusively - used as a technical path to compare different sensors, but has no meaning when viewing your resulting final images.


----------



## swithdrawn (Sep 5, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> not to mention prior comments. DPAF on this camera does not pass the sniff test either.
> 
> neither does a 2.2x (or whatever that would end up being) crop for 4K output as well.



I'm curious about 4k -- I'm cynical so I have to believe Canon will continue doing their center 1:1 readout with an absurdly high crop factor than suddenly decide to implement proper downsampling. But if they do, along with c-log, it would be a great B cam to the C series.


----------



## Maiaibing (Sep 5, 2017)

masterpix said:


> The main issues that this camera will need to face are:
> 
> Sharpness of the lenses and hand shaking, which is a factor of the pixel size on the sensor, the more pixels, the less tolerance the sensor is to lens "mistakes" and hand held movement, it will limit the benefits of image stabilizers and will make non IS lenses impossible to use.


Nonsense... Having problems with your 5DIII or 5DIV???? Otherwise you are good. If you want - a lot - sharper images than with the 5DIII or 5DIV use a tripod.



masterpix said:


> The other issue is high ISO, the 5Ds/sr maximal Iso was 1600 which is not much (in some cases, to get a high speed shooting (animals, children "on the loose" etc) one need to get as high ISO as possible to be able to capture the moment.


Since you can just press the files to iso 50.000 (or whatever) for the same result as if it had a dial going that high its hardly relevant. However, I do think Canon made a silly mistake in not just including an iso 25.600/53,200 setting.


----------



## keithcooper (Sep 5, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> ...
> and you're wrong on the lenses, you're into the world of oversampling. every lens will improve even the worst.



+1 that. 

A lot of earnest uniformed nonsense about lenses not being good enough was spouted when I first got a 1Ds3, and similarly with the 5Ds

Experience suggests that 120MP will give bigger and better files from all my lenses (it is bayer as well BTW)

'Just' 60MP might remind me why I previously updated every other model release.


----------



## KeithBreazeal (Sep 5, 2017)

Oh hell no!
My 5DS already put a dent in the budget by having to buy more drives.
I'm in the process of investing in good glass for the 5DS and wonder how many lenses
currently available would be capable or a good match for 60 MP.
One distinct advantage would be "one-shot" panoramas. My 5DS and the Sigma 14mm f1.8 Art 
can do this very well.
Lightroom performance will reach an all-time low.


----------



## wockawocka (Sep 5, 2017)

If it wasn't for needing better shadow pull, touch screen and burst speed I'd still be using my 5DSr's.

(Hopefully) if this new low MP mode rings true it should be better than Sraw (which always looked funny).


----------



## Tangent (Sep 5, 2017)

snoke said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > BUT, if it has on chip ADC type base IQ improvements I'll get one whatever else is or isn't on the spec sheet, if it doesn't I won't.
> ...



Agree.


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 5, 2017)

Maiaibing said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > I'd love a 120mpx camera, but I don't think there's enough demand for it, because it will be a pain to work with such huge files, it'll be slow and you'll have to downsample almost everything to make it worthwhile.
> ...



sure they do. I take 600mp stitched images all the time and downsample them for additional clarity and sharpness.

My sigma merrills are marvelous for doing this.


----------



## Memdroid (Sep 5, 2017)

I sold my 5dsr last month because I used my 1dx2 and 5d4 more. But if they address the slow operarion (note not the fps speed) and retain the same functions as the 5d4 than I will be all over that thing. Oh and please retain the colors just like the original 5ds/r. Those colors are probaly Canons's best ever!


----------



## Jopa (Sep 5, 2017)

PREORDER!!!!


----------



## Maiaibing (Sep 6, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > jolyonralph said:
> ...


You're not downsampling anything. You're just stiching and printning (or viewing) at the size you prefer. Nothing different from what you would do with any other camera - no matter what pixel count.


----------



## cgc (Sep 6, 2017)

I hope the AA filter version is still available on 5DS mark II.

Take a look at the balconys on this image at F4 (at the platform at the far left, or in the buildings):

https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS8256x6192~sample_galleries/7707853581/3016826142.jpg

Not a 5DSR, but the last shocking example caused by the lack of AA filter I bookmarked. In a totally normal picture (not a textile subject). Any human made structure is prone to moire.

The AA filter does not reduces the detail: only requires the proper sharpening tecnique (e.g. deconvolution) to restore 99% of the image information. But its lack hugely increases the chances of causing a non recoverable damage.

The AA-less hype is pure silly marketing Canon engineers has resisted up to date. Most buyers have no scientific base, and some even are photo-illiterates spreading just nonsense (in this thread there is even people suggesting a 5D4 AA-less with less pixels!).

We hope Canon continue giving us the choice and running by technical rationale.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 6, 2017)

mmeerdam said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > mmeerdam said:
> ...



Actually, I needed his reminders. Now, untwist your panties.


----------



## Jopa (Sep 6, 2017)

cgc said:


> I hope the AA filter version is still available on 5DS mark II.
> 
> Take a look at the balconys on this image at F4 (at the platform at the far left, or in the buildings):
> 
> ...



It can offer something like a variable AA filter similar to the Sont RX-1 II to satisfy everybody


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 6, 2017)

Sharpening an image that has been through an AA filter will not restore detail. It will create detail that may, or may not, look similar to the detail that was lost. There's no magic way to get that detail back. Once it has been defocused you're reliant on algorithms that insert artificial sharpness. They do seem to work most of the time, but especially for monochrome work there's no substitute for having a sensor without an AA filter.

Having spent a good decade or so of my life writing image processing algorithms including multiple sharpening/unsharp mask methods I do know a thing or two about this.

In addition, I've shot tens of thousands of images on my 5DSR, landscape, portrait, macro, etc, etc. And I can't say I have found a single image that has been ruined by moire. Maybe I'm just lucky.


----------



## streestandtheatres (Sep 6, 2017)

+1
I just don't see moire problems in the photos I'm taking with this camera.


----------



## Orangutan (Sep 6, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> In addition, I've shot tens of thousands of images on my 5DSR, landscape, portrait, macro, etc, etc. And I can't say I have found a single image that has been ruined by moire. Maybe I'm just lucky.



A single person's experiences with/without AA filters represent personal style and preference...anecdotes. The collective experience would be data. My question to you: have you looked on the web for complaints or examples of others who have found Moire to be unacceptable in cameras without AA filters? 

I find it hard to believe that Canon, with all its engineers, would include AA filters in other bodies if it weren't beneficial. At what point are pixels small enough to eliminate the need for AA filters? My guess is that the answer is something quantumish.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 6, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> I like the sound of the modest mp bump.
> 
> BUT, if it has on chip ADC type base IQ improvements I'll get one whatever else is or isn't on the spec sheet, if it doesn't I won't.
> 
> These 1DS model range replacements really are about one thing and everything else is iceing and cherries. Don't care about fps though more than 2 will beat out most medium format, don't want a $916 additional 2 fps option either. Don't care one iota for 4k or video in general from this model. GPS has become a nice additional way of sorting images so like that. I'd prefer an Ethernet port over headphone and mic ports, tethering is way more important than video for this particular model. If it has to have two card slots make them the same type and spec goddamit! Fully functional touch screen, Canon are the best at touch screens so run with it. BUT, Canon, give us the base IQ you have shown you can.......



On Chip ADC and DPAF are much bigger improvements than a MP bump IMHO. Ethernet port would be nice, but unlikely. Its a 5D MK IV with more MP, any other improvements are more likely tweaks.


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 6, 2017)

Maiaibing said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...




no, I actually downsample.

I take the image at it's 600mp and when I'm ready to save for final printing, i change the resolution DOWN and choose an appropriate sampling algorithm. that's downsampling.

when you print, even when you don't downsample it happens during the print process anyways.

when you view the full image on your screen,it's significantly downsampled.


----------



## aceflibble (Sep 6, 2017)

Canon Rumors said:


> Anything this far out is generally considered unlikely to come to fruition,


That's a really dumb thing to say, as if bodies and lenses aren't worked on for _years_ before public release.

Realistically, once a body or lens has hit a prototype stage, the manufacturer is confident in the spec. Elements may change to small degrees—a button moved a millimetre to the left, USB 2 swapped for USB 3, menu items moved to a different order, etc—but nothing drastic. All the core functionality is in place before money is invested into making test cameras, and the major spec is only changed if there has been a significant fault with the design. (Which is increasingly rare, this far into the digital life cycle.)

Remember, the 24-105 mk II was prototyped and in the hands of select pros more than 18 months before the public announcement and the shape of the IS and AF switches is the only thing which got changed. Fuji got their medium format system out in the field more than a year ahead of public announcement and literally _nothing_ changed in that time. Nearly all of Sigma's lenses spend more than a year in the wild before public announcement and there's no record of a single one changing in that time. 

If there is a 5DS mk II coming for the end of next year then yes, it absolutely stands to reason that there are already prototypes around, and following that, history tells us that whatever those prototypes are currently running is 90% what the final SKU will be.

A year, year and a half; these time frames are not "far out". More like two thirds of the way to launch; certainly over halfway.


----------



## Talys (Sep 6, 2017)

aceflibble said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > Anything this far out is generally considered unlikely to come to fruition,
> ...



The issue is not that Canon doesn't know what's going into the 5DS2; it's that all of us don't. Until we get closer and the leaks become of a higher quality, at this point, it's as much speculation as anything.

Now, if someone who actually has a prototype speaks up (anonymously), that would be different.


----------



## The Supplanter (Sep 6, 2017)

midluk said:


> I hope the "Identical body to the EOS 5D Mark IV" part is not true. As a high resolution camera that is often used in live view on a tripod, an up-down tilting screen would be really useful.



I was thinking the same thing. I would love to see a great performing FF with the Vari-angle Touch Screen LCD.


----------



## traveller (Sep 6, 2017)

aceflibble said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > Anything this far out is generally considered unlikely to come to fruition,
> ...



I can see both points here, as we don't know the release date. If it's for a Photokina 2018 announcement, with an end of year shipping date, then you'd expect the specifications to be pretty firm and the pre-production bodies to start hitting the usual suspects for testing quite soon (when the proper leaks will start ). If it's further out than that, anything still goes. 

We don't have enough data points to go on, as the 5DS line is only one generation old. It was released nearly three years after the 5DIII, which lead some people to question whether it was a replacement, despite Canon's assertions to the contrary (which were proven correct by the 5DIV release last year). We are now hearing that we won't have to wait as long for the 5DSII, remember that Canon used to get the 1Ds out within a year of the equivalent generation 1D... 

We also don't yet have enough data points to know whether the 5DS series will follow the same pattern of being the same body as the "high speed" version but with "high resolution" and a speed trade-off, but it is a reasonable assumption that this is what Canon will do. Unfortunately, this does mean that if you are a 5DS series buyer and want a feature that did not feature on that generation's 5D, then you've got a long wait! Looks like no articulating screen or bigger viewfinder for me then


----------



## hne (Sep 6, 2017)

keithcooper said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



60MP also happens to be where a 2x2 binning starts becoming a useable resolution. 15MP with full colour at each pixel is easily enough for most use, including really nice A3+/SuperB prints.


----------



## traveller (Sep 6, 2017)

Canon Rumors said:


> *Update 09/04/2017 @ 16:56 EST: * Keep in mind that Canon uses APS-H sensors in some test bodies and this can affect pixel count.



If they're still at the APS-H test sensor stage, I doubt we'll see a 5DSII next year! Or are you implying that your source may have got their facts muddled?


----------



## Hector1970 (Sep 6, 2017)

On moire I've never had an issue with it on a 5DSR.
I'm sure it could occur but I haven't noticed.
64MP or 120 MP sounds great but even 50MP is a bit of a pain. 
You need a very good Laptop / PC to handle the files quickly.
Most off the shelf ones are too slow.
My wish for a 5DSR II would be better image quality especially at higher ISO's
The current one is very good in perfect conditions.
I don't like the noise at higher ISOs. In my version it's smudgy (very like my 7DII noise).
I've found my 5D III and 5IV better at higher ISO's and grain finer.
An increase in frame rate if it could cope would be good.
I'd like a wider dynamic range even if it matched the best currently I'd be satisfied.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 6, 2017)

traveller said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > *Update 09/04/2017 @ 16:56 EST: * Keep in mind that Canon uses APS-H sensors in some test bodies and this can affect pixel count.
> ...



This makes no sense. The only difference between the 5D and 5Ds is the sensor. There is nothing else to test.


----------



## Canoneer (Sep 6, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> and like I said, canon's already been actively demo'ing the 120MP DSLR for the past two years and have actually stated "it's coming.. " it's actually in development now since sept 2016, as a 120MP DSLR. Again, that's not even a rumor, it's already been stated by canon. So what there's going to be two more different high resolution 5D's coming out? that seems unlikely.
> 
> and you're wrong on the lenses, you're into the world of oversampling. every lens will improve even the worst.



The lens quality issue won't be a problem if the oversampling ratio is 4:1; a 120MP image with 4:1 oversampling would yield a 30MP image, which is well within the resolving power of all Canon L glass. The problems would arise when attempting to use the full 120MP image resolution without oversampling. Only a handful of L series primes stopped down between F4 and F8 would be capable of corner to corner sharpness at that resolution. But as long as Canon provides the means to record both full-size 120MP RAW files *and * 30MP oversampled RAW files, then photographers get the best of both worlds. The 120MP may not give you corner-to-corner sharpness with any given lens, but it does give you the ability to crop in the center with a factor of 2 and still yield an image of 5D mk.4 quality. Meanwhile, an oversampled image of 30MP would blow away a 5D mk.4 in terms of IQ with greater DR, and fewer false color artifacts.


----------



## BillB (Sep 6, 2017)

unfocused said:


> traveller said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



You might want to look at the spec sheets for the 5DIII, the 5DS, and the 5DIV.


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 6, 2017)

traveller said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > *Update 09/04/2017 @ 16:56 EST: * Keep in mind that Canon uses APS-H sensors in some test bodies and this can affect pixel count.
> ...



canon tests their sensors at APS-H size because it's the largest most economical one they can do in small batches.

a full frame sensor is stitched with three exposures. APS-H takes only one.


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 6, 2017)

Canoneer said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > and like I said, canon's already been actively demo'ing the 120MP DSLR for the past two years and have actually stated "it's coming.. " it's actually in development now since sept 2016, as a 120MP DSLR. Again, that's not even a rumor, it's already been stated by canon. So what there's going to be two more different high resolution 5D's coming out? that seems unlikely.
> ...


*

sRAW would be 30mp. however you're better off tailoring that yourself.

however yes, the oversampling effect would simply blow out any lower MP camera aka a Mark IV.

you're also correct about the crop factor. it's HUGE and I think people aren't getting this. this is the FIRST camera EVER that beats out any crop format for resolving power.

you can do a 2x crop factor on this and get better resolving than with any m43's camera body. (30mp to 20mp)

so you can use a 300mm lens like a 600mm lens like they do in the m43 world

in the right hands and with the right mindset, this will be a pretty awesome camera if it's this.*


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 6, 2017)

Canon Rumors said:


> Update 09/04/2017 @ 16:56 EST: Keep in mind that Canon uses APS-H sensors in some test bodies and this can affect pixel count.



yes/no. they would simply scale the masks for production. but that still wouldn't work out. they'd need around a 70MP APS-H to make that all work out to 120MP.

that would put it at 100MP though, which would be a nice number as well.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 6, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> traveller said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



Okay, that makes some sense now. Although wondering where the 60 mp number came from. A 60 mp APS-H sensor would scale out to about 100 mp, which seems like a big leap. If they are testing a 35.5 mp APS-H sensor it would scale out to about 60 mp, full frame. One seems conservative and one seems too extreme. 

Time will tell.


----------



## Maiaibing (Sep 6, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...


I give up...


----------



## NancyP (Sep 6, 2017)

To tell the truth, I would rather have increased dynamic range and less noise than more pixels.


----------



## AdjustedInCamera (Sep 6, 2017)

midluk said:


> I hope the "Identical body to the EOS 5D Mark IV" part is not true. As a high resolution camera that is often used in live view on a tripod, an up-down tilting screen would be really useful.



+1 

Personally find it strange that even reviewers highlight the tilty-screens as being good for getting those 'impossible otherwise shots'. Personally, just having the camera on a tripod, and being able to adjust the screen rather than myself is a massive win. 

Also, I wouldn't know how to shoot video at any resolution unless I could hold the camera securely which seems, again, to require the screen to be adjusted so I can actually see what it's filming.


----------



## vscd (Sep 6, 2017)

NancyP said:


> To tell the truth, I would rather have increased dynamic range and less noise than more pixels.



Then you should switch your 5DSR with a 5D Mark IV


----------



## unfocused (Sep 6, 2017)

NancyP said:


> To tell the truth, I would rather have increased dynamic range and less noise than more pixels.



Well, yes, but that's what the rest of Canon's lineup is for. The 5Ds series is intended for maximum resolution. If you want low noise and high ISO there are other options. 

On the other hand, as the 5DIV showed, the old relationship between noise and resolution isn't quite as clear these days as it once was (The 5DIV compares very favorably to the 1DXII despite the higher pixel count).


----------



## unfocused (Sep 6, 2017)

AdjustedInCamera said:


> midluk said:
> 
> 
> > I hope the "Identical body to the EOS 5D Mark IV" part is not true. As a high resolution camera that is often used in live view on a tripod, an up-down tilting screen would be really useful.
> ...



The 5Ds needs the economy of scale that comes with using the 5D body in order to remain competitive. I don't see Canon making any changes in the body that would require a different design and thus, higher costs.


----------



## Sharlin (Sep 6, 2017)

Maiaibing said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > no, I actually downsample.
> ...



Well, good, because you seem to have no idea what downsampling is. Downsampling means reducing the sample rate of a signal. When the signal is a digital image, your samples are pixels, and downsampling means reducing the resolution of the image. That is, resizing the image to a smaller number of horizontal and vertical pixels. Every time you export a photo in a lower resolution, your software downsamples the photo. Every time you display a high-res photo on a low-res screen, your image viewer downsamples the photo. And so on.


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 6, 2017)

Sharlin said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



i think i get it.. 

you can call it downsampling (which makes more sense to me at least) or resampling, i think that's his beef. downsampling i guess is supposed to involve something like the AA filter versus changing the image resolution. however in reality, you're doing both.

there. i think i got the terms right this time.. lol.


----------



## Sharlin (Sep 6, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> i think i get it..
> 
> you can call it downsampling (which makes more sense to me at least) or resampling, i think that's his beef. downsampling i guess is supposed to involve something like the AA filter versus changing the image resolution. however in reality, you're doing both.
> 
> there. i think i got the terms right this time.. lol.



As far as I can see, downsampling is resampling "down", ie. to a lower sample rate. Upsampling is resampling to a higher sample rate. In both cases you already have a discretized signal, a bunch of samples.


----------



## bholliman (Sep 6, 2017)

I'm very happy with my 5DsR. My wishlist of improvements for the MkII is pretty short:
[list type=decimal]
[*]tilt touch-screen LCD
[*]f/8 autofocus, similar to the 5DIV
[*]DPAF
[*]on-chip ADC
[/list]

Personally, I hope they don't increase the megapixel count too much (60mp or less), but I'm sure it will get a mp bump since that seems to come with every new iteration.


----------



## tron (Sep 6, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> Sharpening an image that has been through an AA filter will not restore detail. It will create detail that may, or may not, look similar to the detail that was lost. There's no magic way to get that detail back. Once it has been defocused you're reliant on algorithms that insert artificial sharpness. They do seem to work most of the time, but especially for monochrome work there's no substitute for having a sensor without an AA filter.
> 
> Having spent a good decade or so of my life writing image processing algorithms including multiple sharpening/unsharp mask methods I do know a thing or two about this.
> 
> In addition, I've shot tens of thousands of images on my 5DSR, landscape, portrait, macro, etc, etc. And I can't say I have found a single image that has been ruined by moire. Maybe I'm just lucky.


You are lucky. My best bee-eater (the ones that were the closest to me) shots had moire. The same with glossy ibises. On the positive side it blends with the feathers and non-photo related people do not notice it. But I know about it and I notice it. It made me think that 7DII may still have its purpose (I had started using 5DsR for birding).


----------



## Act444 (Sep 6, 2017)

FWIW, I've gotten moire before on bird feathers...................................using a 5D3. 

I have not used the 5DSR in nature at this point, but elsewhere I haven't had any issues with moire using that camera. I suppose that if you get it with the R, you'll also get it on a filtered camera like the 5D4 (although granted, the R will show it worse - sometimes significantly so).


----------



## Talys (Sep 6, 2017)

I've had moiré before on fabrics (for example, a navy sweater). It's super annoying and not really correctable in post, at least not in a non-destructive manner. It has happened maybe two or three times in thousands of shots; I can't recall the body.

The fix is easy, if you can re-take it, of course -- just fiddle with the light a bit, or adjust the distance or angle in a minute way, and voila.

One thing I've noticed: there are times when it appears in the JPEG, but not in the RAW file, but if it's in the RAW, it will always also be visible in the JPEG. So if you're splitting the files (storing JPEG on laptop and RAW on camera, to speed up wifi), you only need to check the RAW file if the JPEG has moiré.


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 6, 2017)

Talys said:


> I've had moiré before on fabrics (for example, a navy sweater). It's super annoying *and not really correctable in post, at least not in a non-destructive manner.* It has happened maybe two or three times in thousands of shots; I can't recall the body.
> 
> The fix is easy, if you can re-take it, of course -- just fiddle with the light a bit, or adjust the distance or angle in a minute way, and voila.
> 
> One thing I've noticed: there are times when it appears in the JPEG, but not in the RAW file, but if it's in the RAW, it will always also be visible in the JPEG. So if you're splitting the files (storing JPEG on laptop and RAW on camera, to speed up wifi), you only need to check the RAW file if the JPEG has moiré.



Often times it is non destructively correctable, though not always.


----------



## willhuff.net (Sep 7, 2017)

Any guesses about dynamic range improvements with this camera?


----------



## RTISTIC (Sep 7, 2017)

With all this EOS 5DS R MK ll talk. Canon will now have to come out with a new 5DS model to compete against 
Nikons D850 in price and features. I own a 5D Mark IV even though I am happy with it. I can't help but feel slighted 
you get so much more at the same price point. WHAT IS CANON DOING WRONG?


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 7, 2017)

RTISTIC said:


> With all this EOS 5DS R MK ll talk. Canon will now have to come out with a new 5DS model to compete against
> Nikons D850 in price and features. I own a 5D Mark IV even though I am happy with it. I can't help but feel slighted
> you get so much more at the same price point. WHAT IS CANON DOING WRONG?



NOTHING.

You have a great camera that will always be better than you. You are like a guy at the urinals getting dick envy yet you have one of the hottest girls at your table. Forget the D850 (or get one and forget the 5D MkIV) and just get out and take pictures with it, who gives a darn what somebody else's camera feature set might be?


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 7, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> NOTHING.
> 
> You have a great camera that will always be better than you. You are like a guy at the urinals getting dick envy yet you have one of the hottest girls at your table. Forget the D850 (or get one and forget the 5D MkIV) and just get out and take pictures with it, who gives a darn what somebody else's camera feature set might be?



Absolutely spot on!

Also, we should count ourselves very lucky that Nikon and Sony continue to innovate and provide a real competition for Canon (and each other), without which there would be far less incentive for Canon (or the other companies) to innovate.


----------



## dak723 (Sep 7, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> ...who gives a darn what somebody else's camera feature set might be?



Immature people who have no perspective on what is important...and who are probably also lousy photographers. 8)


----------



## Maiaibing (Sep 7, 2017)

Sharlin said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...


Yes. But its not an extra effort as the OP implied. It just happens... That's why I said nobody "does" downsampling. There's no extra work or effort involved - its a property of the final result - nothing more or less.


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 7, 2017)

Maiaibing said:


> Sharlin said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



that doesn't make sense. if you are choosing to downsample, you also choose the algorithm as well.

it doesn't just happen unless you are talking about strict viewing / resizing.


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 7, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > NOTHING.
> ...



that's a little false. to sell new cameras, canon or any company has to come up with reasons for you to buy said new camera.

products march on regardless of competition unless you are in a business that lives by recurring revenue streams.


----------



## Talys (Sep 8, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



That's so buying into the marketing department of camera manufacturers... Canon included 

If you just [buy a ILC | upgrade your ILC | upgrade to a pro ILC | upgrade to this new ILC] your photos will be so much better!!! See, here are some sample photos of what's possible, if only you had this camera. Don't you wish you could take pictures like this? You can!

Personally, I think that as technically amazing as the D850 sounds, it's actually a very tiny improvement upon the D810 in terms of "could I take a better shot if I had a D850 instead of a D810"? For all of those wonderful sample photos -- not to mention award winning photography -- the constraint is not the incremental features built into the latest camera body.

But privatebydesign's point was just that if you have a semi-recent DSLR, you probably already have a super-amazing tool, and don't need a better camera body to produce amazing photography that would knock the socks off of anyone looking at your finished product. People who think otherwise probably would be much better served by getting out, taking pictures, figuring out what could make them better, and then working on those aspects.


----------



## midluk (Sep 8, 2017)

Photography as a hobby is not just about the final outcome but also about the fun while doing it.
Most improvements in a camera do not allow you to take photos that were impossible before, but make taking difficult photos easier (e.g. in-camera HDR, in-camera focus stacking, better dynamic range to get a shot in one exposure instead of two) or more reliable (e.g. better AF, higher frame rate) and might push those photos above your personal "fun threshold".
While a camera without a tilting screen can take very low angle shots, you have to lie in the mud to do it (or aim blindly) and therefore rarely do it. A tilting screen allows you to get those shots easily.
But the shots used for marketing are often not the shots where the camera would really make a difference. Ergonomic and workflow improvements are difficult to show.


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 8, 2017)

midluk said:


> While a camera without a tilting screen can take very low angle shots, you have to lie in the mud to do it (or aim blindly) and therefore rarely do it. A tilting screen allows you to get those shots easily.



You're forgetting one thing. With wireless support you can view and take shots using your cellphone. Yes, it's not as straightforward as using a tilty screen (especially with the iPhone which doesn't have NFC support and is more of a pain to connect than Android) but it's significantly more flexible. 

So for me a tilty screen is a luxury that I'm fine to live without.


----------



## Talys (Sep 8, 2017)

midluk said:


> Photography as a hobby is not just about the final outcome but also about the fun while doing it.
> Most improvements in a camera do not allow you to take photos that were impossible before, but make taking difficult photos easier (e.g. in-camera HDR, in-camera focus stacking, better dynamic range to get a shot in one exposure instead of two) or more reliable (e.g. better AF, higher frame rate) and might push those photos above your personal "fun threshold".
> While a camera without a tilting screen can take very low angle shots, you have to lie in the mud to do it (or aim blindly) and therefore rarely do it. A tilting screen allows you to get those shots easily.
> But the shots used for marketing are often not the shots where the camera would really make a difference. Ergonomic and workflow improvements are difficult to show.



I largely agree with you. In fact, aside from my recent 6DII purchase (because I wanted FF), I generally, I buy new modern cameras for non-top-line features that just make it so that I enjoy photography more.

But still, privatebydesign's point holds: my 80D, 70D, t6s... even t2i... really are capable of taking better pictures than my skills permit. Most of what makes a photo great isn't being able to catch more frames or capture a little more gamut, or even less graininess. It's composition, lighting, understanding your subject, and knowing what you want as your finished product, and what you need to get there. 

To take an example, the hobby part of photography for me is birding. To catch a good shot of a bird in flight, you can have 20 fps, a screen full of AF points and tons of DR and miss the bird entirely, get a bunch of grey blobs, or lose all of the definition in its whites, have awful water reflections... any number of things can go wrong. 

Improving my photography throughout the years has been learning to know the signs of when a particular bird is about to take off or give me a good action shot, what kind of exposure is ideal, and even what time of day or what time of year at a particular location will give me the best results. When I should use a polarizer, when I absolutely need to crank shutter as oozed to the types of gliding that afford me higher ISO; when handheld works best, and when to use a gimbal. 

The professional aspects of photography for me are products and dioramas. Studio lighting and composition have a pretty crazy steep learning curve, and the difference is awesome looking photos versus very amateurish output. I assure you, I could use a t2i and get beautiful shots. Whether displayed on the web or printed to a A4 glossy spread in a magazine, nobody would be able to tell what camera I used -- nor would they care. . 

None of that really has anything to do with equipment, and none of the deficiencies of knowledge can really be solved by cool new gear.


----------



## midluk (Sep 8, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> midluk said:
> 
> 
> > While a camera without a tilting screen can take very low angle shots, you have to lie in the mud to do it (or aim blindly) and therefore rarely do it. A tilting screen allows you to get those shots easily.
> ...


The same argument then applies to the wireless connection (being a helpful feature which makes specific photos much easier).
But for situations where a tilting screen is sufficient (compared to wireless connection) I see it as far superior and much faster. Getting a quick spontaneous overhead shot of some event is almost impossible if you first have to pull out your phone, unlock it, connect it, aim and zoom with one hand (with big flash unit attached to camera for additional weight). On a tripod handling an additional phone is a little bit easier, but even then I prefer to have a free second hand to handle the dials and the camera working independently from my phone (e.g. camera not turning off when the screen on the phone is locked). Wireless might be a nice addition, but it is definitely not a full-fledged replacement for a tilting screen.




Talys said:


> But still, privatebydesign's point holds: my 80D, 70D, t6s... even t2i... really are capable of taking better pictures than my skills permit. Most of what makes a photo great isn't being able to catch more frames or capture a little more gamut, or even less graininess. It's composition, lighting, understanding your subject, and knowing what you want as your finished product, and what you need to get there.
> 
> To take an example, the hobby part of photography for me is birding. To catch a good shot of a bird in flight, you can have 20 fps, a screen full of AF points and tons of DR and miss the bird entirely, get a bunch of grey blobs, or lose all of the definition in its whites, have awful water reflections... any number of things can go wrong.
> 
> ...


This is of course all valid. I didn't doubt that a good camera is not a replacement for skill and experience, especially when it comes to composition, lighting or guessing what specific subjects (animals, people) will do.
If you know what you do, even a cheap camera is sufficient for good results, but it's usually not as much fun.
I just didn't like the apparent "Don't improve camera as long as you can still improve your skill in some area." consensus.


----------



## BillB (Sep 8, 2017)

midluk said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > midluk said:
> ...



The way I would put it is: if you want to improve there are likely better things to spend money on than a new camera, like lessons and classes. Also, a new camera isn't do much to improve your photography if you aren't willing to spend the time to needed improve your photography.


----------



## Orangutan (Sep 10, 2017)

midluk said:


> Photography as a hobby is not just about the final outcome but also about the fun while doing it.
> Most improvements in a camera do not allow you to take photos that were impossible before, but make taking difficult photos easier



Agreed. I moved from 60D to 70D because I was having difficulty photographing birds. Though I tried every suggestion I could find to address the problem, I could not get consistent results. The 70D's IQ and feature set are not that much better than the 60D, but the improvement with birds has been huge -- within just a few weeks I was getting consistent, predictable results, and was enjoying the process again. If I go for a bird walk on a cloudy day I know the results will not be great, but at least they are consistent and predictable. I can enjoy the walk and accept the photos for what they are.

I've thought of getting a refurb 80D during one of the sales, but I'm not sure it would help me enjoy photography more. I may wait a while and get a refurb 6D2....or wait longer and keep enjoying my 70D.


----------



## 9VIII (Sep 11, 2017)

Talys said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > jolyonralph said:
> ...



I think this is why Canon has been "so slow" do adapt to the latest sensor technology. Canon has correctly identified the user experience as the most important feature in a camera and they've gone and put touchscreens and DPAF on everything, and the latest step is Low Power Blutooth for browsing photos without fiddling with the camera.

Canon has never allowed themselves to fall behind in that department.


----------



## Act444 (Sep 12, 2017)

Act444 said:


> FWIW, I've gotten moire before on bird feathers...................................using a 5D3.
> 
> I have not used the 5DSR in nature at this point, but elsewhere I haven't had any issues with moire using that camera. I suppose that if you get it with the R, you'll also get it on a filtered camera like the 5D4 (although granted, the R will show it worse - sometimes significantly so).



Updating this to say I ran into my first instance of (noticeable) moire with the 5DSR a few days ago - on a striped jacket of all things. With a little work, however, it cleaned up nicely in Lightroom, can't even notice it was there in the first place. 

Even with that "incident", I think the tradeoff for crisper images is worth it. I've actually spent more PP time on selective sharpening with certain images from the M6/5D4, FWIW...


----------



## jWeu (Jan 13, 2018)

With dual pixels, the left one is throwing away the photons from the right and the right one is throwing away the pixel from the left. 5Ds should not have dual pixels and may may not have video but high iso level for low light photographies.

If is has dual pixel, I want to get my old Horizontal Split Image. The Focusing Screen has done the exact photon selection, the dual pixels are doing as described above.


----------



## darnsmall (Jan 24, 2018)

Is there any time frame on when the next 5D might be out?

I'm currently still loving my 5D II from 2010, but my god it's been through the wash a few times and is slowly falling apart, but keeps on going like the work horse that it is.

Would kill to buy another one brand new, but figure if Canon are going to put out something impressive this year I'll hold off on buying a 2nd hand 5D II

I just hope they come out with something impressive...like a 5D with no Auto settings


----------



## Talys (Jan 25, 2018)

jWeu said:


> With dual pixels, the left one is throwing away the photons from the right and the right one is throwing away the pixel from the left. 5Ds should not have dual pixels and may may not have video but high iso level for low light photographies.
> 
> If is has dual pixel, I want to get my old Horizontal Split Image. The Focusing Screen has done the exact photon selection, the dual pixels are doing as described above.



I don't think 5DSR will skip dual pixel, because Canon has put it into everything these days. However, I would welcome this, if it gives meaningful improvements to the shot. Nearly all my live view focusing is done with MF anyways.


----------



## thibaut (Feb 25, 2018)

Anything new about a possible announcement soon ? 
I've been waiting for 6 month as I need a new body, come on canon ... I don't really want to buy à 5Dmkiv now ! :'(


----------

