# Advice on low light indoor sports photo's



## thearsenal (Oct 6, 2013)

Hi,

I've taken this picture at a judo tournament using a Canon 50D with a Canon 24-70 f/2.8 (mark I). I had to shoot at ISO 3200 because of the bad light. This adds a lot of noise to the picture.

I'm mainly shooting football (a.k.a. soccer) and judo pictures. I'm thinking of buying the Canon 70D. I hope the noise will be less at higher ISO values. I also like the fact that it's faster than the 50D.

I would like to hear from you if the 70D is a big improvement coming from the 50D or that I'm better of buying a lens with a bigger aperture.

Thank you,

Hans


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 6, 2013)

If you shoot in RAW, you'll see very little improvement in the high ISO noise - I expect you'd need to look at a FF body for the improvement you seek. 

A faster lens would be better, but you'll lose the flexibility of a zoom, and may not have enough DoF at really wide apertures. 

Unfortunately, there's no easy (or cheap!) solution.


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## jdramirez (Oct 6, 2013)

I thought the 60/70D were better with grain at higher iso's... I am probably wrong about that though.

I'd suggest getting the white balance right. Get a white styrofoam cup and when in post, put the white balance dropper on the cup. It does a really nice job of getting the right white balance.

Once you o that... I'd also suggest a faster lens. There are some decent options like the 100mm f/2 or an 85mm f/1.8 that you can shoot wide open and still get solid results. 

Also... are you allowed flash. Because that combined with HSS would be helpful.


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## privatebydesign (Oct 6, 2013)

Whilst I agree with Neuro, a ff camera is going to give you a couple of stops less noise, I would point out there is a different route.

I just cleaned this up in Topaz DeNoise 5, modern software has given us a couple more stops of usable iso and is a lot cheaper than a new camera!

Also I did the white balance on the doors as they are far enough away from the red mat to not get the bad colour reflection the fighters have, a good case for B&W!


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## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 6, 2013)

I see two different possibilities for upgrade your 50D. 8) Either you invest in 5D mark III as 6D has inappropriate AF for fast sports. 8) Or you get a little better ISO capability with 70D, and a little more with 85mm F1.8.  The combination 70D + 85mm still costs less than 5D mark III. :


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## thearsenal (Oct 6, 2013)

Thanks for the suggestions.

I was already afraid that there are no cheap solutions. Although I would like to buy a 5D mark III. I'm afraid, my wife won't let me. 

I always shoot with auto white balance. I'll try to find out how to manually determine and select the right white balance.

I like the results achieved with Topaz DeNoise. I will look into that.

I've read that using flash is usually not allowed because it might distract the players. That's why I don't use my flash. 

I guess it depends on the level of the event. At this tournament, I saw someone from the judo-club that organized the tournament use a flash. I could have used mine as well.


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## jdramirez (Oct 7, 2013)

I know that is the reflection coming off the mat, but I still want to fix that. I'd rather the people be in correct white balance than the doors even if it doesn't reflect reality. 

what is nice about shooting indoors is you can adjust your settings once and not have to worry about cloud coverage completely changing your changing your shutter speed and white balance.

I presume you are shooting in raw ands using light room.


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## KKCFamilyman (Oct 7, 2013)

I would say the 6d is an option over the 70d if your looking for cleaner high iso performance. If you stick with the center point af then you should be ok for the scene you posted.


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## privatebydesign (Oct 7, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> I know that is the reflection coming off the mat, but I still want to fix that. I'd rather the people be in correct white balance than the doors even if it doesn't reflect reality.
> 
> what is nice about shooting indoors is you can adjust your settings once and not have to worry about cloud coverage completely changing your changing your shutter speed and white balance.
> 
> I presume you are shooting in raw ands using light room.



The problem with the reflection is that it is not a WB issue, it is a selective colour cast issue and is not fixable without a selection. The point of taking the WB off the doors, it is just normalising the overall colour, including the tops of the fighters.

But anyway, for individual images the quick select tool makes a short enough job of basic tasks like this, but I'd hate to have to do an entire event!


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## jdramirez (Oct 7, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > I know that is the reflection coming off the mat, but I still want to fix that. I'd rather the people be in correct white balance than the doors even if it doesn't reflect reality.
> ...



I don't believe I'm familiar with the quick select tool, or is that the paint brush over the two and then adjusting the saturation over the white?

I probably should go and watch me how to video again...


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## Northstar (Oct 7, 2013)

thearsenal said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've taken this picture at a judo tournament using a Canon 50D with a Canon 24-70 f/2.8 (mark I). I had to shoot at ISO 3200 because of the bad light. This adds a lot of noise to the picture.
> 
> ...



Agree with others that you won't get much high iSO improvement going from a 50 to 70. the new 6d would get you roughly 1 1/2 stops of high ISO improvement over the 50 d....for not that much more than a the cost of a 70d.

Buying a 50 or 85 prime and shooting at f2 would get you 1 stop of improvement.

I would get the lens and save for the body. The 85 1.8 is a good lens choice for indoor sports like this.


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## Cory (Oct 7, 2013)

If you like, here's my thing on volleyball photography which would apply to any indoor sport; I would think:

http://corysteiner.blogspot.com/2012/08/guide-to-taking-volleyball-pictures.html


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## privatebydesign (Oct 7, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> I don't believe I'm familiar with the quick select tool, or is that the paint brush over the two and then adjusting the saturation over the white?
> 
> I probably should go and watch me how to video again...



It is here in PS, often hiding behind the Magic Wand tool.


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## jdramirez (Oct 7, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe I'm familiar with the quick select tool, or is that the paint brush over the two and then adjusting the saturation over the white?
> ...



I don't use photo shop... but I used to back in the 90's... I'm guessing things have improved since Clinton was in office.


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## privatebydesign (Oct 7, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> I don't use photo shop... but I used to back in the 90's... I'm guessing things have improved since Clinton was in office.


With regards photo editing software, yes, question remains open on many other subjects though


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## Sella174 (Oct 7, 2013)

thearsenal said:


> I've taken this picture at a judo tournament using a Canon 50D with a Canon 24-70 f/2.8 (mark I). I had to shoot at ISO 3200 because of the bad light. This adds a lot of noise to the picture.



What f-stop did you use? In my humble opinion, you've got way too much depth of field there, which makes me think you did not photographed this at 70mm f/2.8 ...


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## jdramirez (Oct 7, 2013)

Sella174 said:


> thearsenal said:
> 
> 
> > I've taken this picture at a judo tournament using a Canon 50D with a Canon 24-70 f/2.8 (mark I). I had to shoot at ISO 3200 because of the bad light. This adds a lot of noise to the picture.
> ...



I was guessing he was a good distance away from the action and cropped the composition... which would explain the depth of field while at f2.8.


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## Sella174 (Oct 7, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> I was guessing he was a good distance away from the action and cropped the composition... which would explain the depth of field while at f2.8.



... and thus the more pronounced sensor noise.


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## thearsenal (Oct 7, 2013)

Once again, thanks for all the suggestions.

I was shooting at f 2.8. I was almost sitting on the tatami (unfortunately that's not always the case). I cropped the image.

I've read that the 6D isn't really considered suitable for sports because of its AF and low continuous shooting rate. 

It will be hard to decide which lens with fixed focal length will be most suitable for my needs.


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## sandymandy (Oct 7, 2013)

try

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9f29660db1f58b2a534f4075bb81363d&topic=17327.msg320873;topicseen#new

for less blur


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## jdramirez (Oct 7, 2013)

thearsenal said:


> Once again, thanks for all the suggestions.
> 
> I was shooting at f 2.8. I was almost sitting on the tatami (unfortunately that's not always the case). I cropped the image.
> 
> ...



post the original image so we can get a sense of how much you cropped. and then it might make more sense.


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## captainkanji (Oct 7, 2013)

The 6D AWB can sometimes be a bit off, especially in that weird auditorium light.

1/160, f/4, ISO 6400, 70-200 f/4L USM






A quick dropper fix.





For Judo, the 6D would probably be fine, but for football/basketball, etc. not so much. I think the 5d3 or 7D and a nice prime/2.8 zoom would suit you nicely.


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## privatebydesign (Oct 7, 2013)

captainkanji said:


> The 6D AWB can sometimes be a bit off, especially in that weird auditorium light.
> 
> 1/160, f/4, ISO 6400, 70-200 f/4L USM
> 
> ...



It isn't the camera, it is the lights. At 1/160th second you are beating the light pulses. Select an appropriate WB value and keep exposure to 1/60 max and the exposure encompasses a complete light pulse. Easy for your shot, not so easy with indoor sports.

http://www.guyrhodes.com/photo/flicker_lapse.gif

http://www.guyrhodes.com/photo/wb_experiment_large.jpg

http://www.sportsshooter.com/guyrhodes/wbtests/pages/3.html


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## jdramirez (Oct 7, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> captainkanji said:
> 
> 
> > The 6D AWB can sometimes be a bit off, especially in that weird auditorium light.
> ...



interesting. I guess my shoot a cup at the beginning and then just use that wb is full of crap. Damn it.


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## thearsenal (Oct 7, 2013)

Herewith the original image:






and these were the settings:






Maybe, I could have chosen a lower ISO value but that would lower the shutter speed and I would risk having motion blur.


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## thearsenal (Oct 7, 2013)

Taking the white balance from the door isn't probably a good idea. The doors aren't white compared to the kimono on the chair behind the referee or the piece of paper above the spectators on the left.


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## AlanK (Oct 7, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> It isn't the camera, it is the lights. At 1/160th second you are beating the light pulses. Select an appropriate WB value and keep exposure to 1/60 max and the exposure encompasses a complete light pulse. Easy for your shot, not so easy with indoor sports.
> 
> http://www.guyrhodes.com/photo/flicker_lapse.gif
> 
> ...



Great info! I've had problems in this type of environment before and never knew what I was doing wrong. Thank you!


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## Northstar (Oct 8, 2013)

AlanK said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > It isn't the camera, it is the lights. At 1/160th second you are beating the light pulses. Select an appropriate WB value and keep exposure to 1/60 max and the exposure encompasses a complete light pulse. Easy for your shot, not so easy with indoor sports.
> ...



Yes....it's common. I'll shoot a 20 something frame burst in a indoor sport venue like this with the 1dx and get some odd white balance fluctuations within the burst group. Lucky for us that our editing tools are so good now days. WB is a relatively easy fix.


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## Northstar (Oct 8, 2013)

thearsenal said:


> Herewith the original image:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Arsenal....your settings are pretty good IMO...you can't go lower than 1/400....1/500 is my personal bare min for action sports, so the ISO going higher is your only choice. RAW is helpful in this situation though when editing.

Someone mentioned black and white...it does help in this situation. I also cropped and and did a minor edit on your image....3 minutes on my iPad. For sports I love a wider image crop...personal opinion.


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## Sella174 (Oct 8, 2013)

27mm ... I'd say use a longer focal length, which will mean less cropping and more opportunity for decent pixels to absorb the noise pixels. (And, yeah, reflexes that will put a cat to shame sure helps!)


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## ykn123 (Oct 8, 2013)

here are my suggestions:
I have 7 bodies including a 50D , 1DM3, 1DX and 5DM3 etc.
If money does not play a role - my suggestion of course would be a 1DX  


The 50D is better in terms of ISO noise than the 60D. (my reason for not upgrading to the 60D)

The 70D jpeg images have been reported to be better but the raws most probably will not. The sensor size is the same compared to the 50D but the resolution is way higher (20MPixel over 15 - there is almost no chance that ISO noise is way better on the 70D compared with a 50D for that reason alone)

1) depending on what you do with the resulting images (do you need very large prints?) - consider a camera that was made for things like indoor sports - like a used 1DMark III. It only has 10MPixel on a larger sensor compared to 15 MPixel on a smaller sensor compared to the 50D - this allows for ISO3200 with much better results in terms of noise. In additon the camera is faster and would help with sports that requires a better burst rate - Judo is not such an issue i think in that regard. I usually shoot handball, basketball etc. and need faster speed than your 1/400s from the sample you have posted.
Such a camera also has dual card slots and allows for recording RAW on one card and jpeg on a second card (in case you have no time for post production and need to deliver the jpegs immediately after the game)

2) use a grey card or things like the color passport and set the WB accordingly (custom set) in order to see right on your display what the images looks like but always shoot raw and use Lightroom to adjust the WB by using a picture with a grey card or color passport during post processing. As said, if you record both RAW and JPEG (on one card or dual card setting) - the jpegs would look correct in terms of WB.

3) things like color reflections (red skin) can be changed in Lightroom by using the adjustment brush just for areas that you like to correct (the face for example). No need to start PS nowadays for these little tweeks.

4) Noise reduction - the Lightroom Noise Reduction is good enough to start with - use 100% view and use the color noise reduction / details sliders in post production. Also, if you export to JPG from within Lightroom - enable sharpening - especially if you resize the image during the export. It also applies some noise reduction automatically during export. (this only works again in LR5.2 - LR5.0/5.1 did not work if you resize during export and left you with unsharpened jpegs)

5) flash - almost never an option since it is not allowed and is annoying for the players/fighters

6) forgot: i had the 24-70 Version I and it was never the sharpest lens. I own a 85 f1.8 and it's very sharp compared to the 24-70 and of course you could use f2 and have one stop more or you use f2.8 at a better quality. The lens is a good one for indoor sport.


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## Wiki Tango (Oct 8, 2013)

ykn123 says it right, I second that!

When I do indoor shootings of Judo, Aikido, Tai Chi or Dancing I often use my 7D with the EF 85 f/1.8.
I shoot RAW and do the white balance in Lightroom, works great with a grey card, worked also with a grey element near the athletes 

Example 
7D | 1/500sec | f/2.0 | EF 85 mm ISO 125



Barbara Bandel | -70kg by Ingo Kwiat, on Flickr

The nifty fifty f/1.4 does it, too - just sometimes the AF USM isn't fast enough 



Aikido | Keiko-Dojo Niederrhein by Ingo Kwiat, on Flickr

The 24-105 f/4 works, but is not the best recommendation for indoor sports



Ole Bischof | IPPON! by Ingo Kwiat, on Flickr

Regarding high ISO... the 7D can go up to 6400 and Lightroom 5 can help to smooth even these high settings,
if a 1DX does not fit into the budget - have you thought about getting a used 7D?


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