# EDIT: A smaller DSLR "replacement" camera? Mirco 4/3erds or different option.



## Synomis192 (Sep 9, 2012)

Is there a small and/or pocketable camera out there that handles like a DSLR? Something that is able to shoot in low light and be concealable, but won't break the bank. I'm talking about about cameras like the Canon G12, Lumix LX5, Olympus PL3, Fujifilm x10, or Sony Nex5n. Cameras like that.

I don't really like to carry around my DSLR anymore due to time restrictions. I still want to take great photos when I'm out but I'm one of the unfortunate ones who doesn't have an Iphone4s. I've seen people that take great images with pocketable cameras.

Basically I'm looking for a camera that:
-Is small, preferably pocketable with a fixed lens. (Interchangeable lenses are a close 2nd)
-Takes great images that match to a DSLR standard.
-Can handle low light situations.
-Usable at High ISO (ISO 800 [or 400] and above)
-Brand name doesn't matter (but Nikon though... just kidding.)
-Won't kill a working student's budget (maximum $500 [bendable to $600])
-HAS to have full PASM modes.
-Doesn't look threatening to the public

This is my top list of cameras that I'm looking at:
1. Fujifilm x10
2. Canon G12
3. Lumix LX5
4. Olympus EPL1
5. Canon S100

EDIT: Okay, I'm getting rid of the pocketable portion. Is there a small DSLR "replacement" camera out there? I don't want to lug around a DSLR when I'm going out with family and friends all the time. But at the same time, I still want to take great pictures. I'll make a new list:

1. Sony C3
2. Canon G12
3. Olympus E-PL2
4. Sony Rx100 (thanks Neuro and Gman)
5. Panasonic GF2


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 9, 2012)

*Re: An inexpensive, low light, pocket-able, DSLR "replacement" camera?*

From your list, I'd only call the S100 pocketable. I have had one since release, great little camera. But today, I'd strongly consider the Sony RX100.


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## Jotho (Sep 9, 2012)

*Re: An inexpensive, low light, pocket-able, DSLR "replacement" camera?*

I have both the older G11 and the S100, happy with both, but only the S100 is small enough to slip into a jeans pocket. Don't know enough about the other brands.


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## Gman (Sep 9, 2012)

*Re: An inexpensive, low light, pocket-able, DSLR "replacement" camera?*

From what i have read recently THE SONY RX 100 would seem to fit the bill best except, for me at least for the limited zoom, the lack of the articulated screen and the very high price. (To me a flat screen in bright sunlight is a big failure).

One I think missed from the list would be the new Nikon P7700 not available until the 27th of the month. Looks good, has a swivel screen and a decent lens, ƒ2 to ƒ4, 7x zoom no viewfinder but it keeps the size down. Looks neat too.

Next week should see the G12 replacement announced for Photokina, if rumours run true, it will be interesting to see how much difference there will be between the old G12 and the new version G12+/G12a/G13/14?

Most of the other cameras mentioned are not really pocketable but at least some of them including the G12 fit in a bum bag, I always carry my G11 in my bum bag and the swivel screen can make it really unobtrusive.

If cash is short then the G12 is being heavily discounted at the moment and was considered very highly especially if the new version is a lot more expensive but not a lot different. I wait with bated breath as I desperately want a new camera to replace my G11 for my next big holiday.

I must say that if the new G12 doesn't come up to my expectations 
CMOS sensor, brighter lens, at least 6x zoom, digit 5 processor. I'll be going for the Nikon P7700.

A big deciding factor for me will be availability, will the new G12 be just announced or only available and in the shops for xmas!?


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## Synomis192 (Sep 9, 2012)

Gman said:


> THE SONY RX 100 would seem to fit the bill best except, for me at least for the limited zoom, the lack of the articulated screen and the very high price. (To me a flat screen in bright sunlight is a big failure).



I've checked out the RX100 that you and Neuro referred too. It looks promising, but you're right. That price tag is pretty high. Kind of makes me put off. But It's up there.

Do you really think that Canon will announce a new G12 replacement? I thought that the G1x was the G12 replacement. Maybe I've been mislead xP.

Anyone here looking forward to the Canon EOS M? I'd be really excited for it... if it was cheaper.



Jotho said:


> I have both the older G11 and the S100, happy with both, but only the S100 is small enough to slip into a jeans pocket. Don't know enough about the other brands.



How is the low light performance on those cameras? Also, explain to me why the G11 is way more expensive than the G12?


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## Jotho (Sep 10, 2012)

Synomis192 said:


> Gman said:
> 
> 
> > THE SONY RX 100 would seem to fit the bill best except, for me at least for the limited zoom, the lack of the articulated screen and the very high price. (To me a flat screen in bright sunlight is a big failure).
> ...


Hi again, I can't give you a reply from a pro view, but with regards to the S100 it stops down to f2.0 which let's you shoot without flash in many situations. You have the little pop up flash also to fill in. 

The G11 is an old camera, I think you refer to the newer more advanced G1x.
I am happy with my G11 but have found myself not usin it much since I picked up the S100.
It has the nice swivel LCD that helps you shoot from angles you wouldn't otherwise.

I strongly recommend the S100 from the Canon options thanks to IQ and size.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 10, 2012)

I have a G11 but I'd say, IQ isn't that much different from S100. After post-processing, there's almost no difference. Though S100 is a little bit (very little) better in low-light. For me G11/G12 is a little bit big to be pocketable but it really depends on the size of your pocket.  Go for a G12 or S100 depending on what you prefer. (smaller vs swivel screen, easier controls, emergency ovf, emergency hotshoe). For me, G12 (though G11 for me) is better since it's also my backup camera. I can fit a really good external flash (albeit, sacrificing comfort) when I want better pictures.

P.S. If you can find a Sony NEX 3 (second-hand), that is sold at around G12/S100 price, (I keep on finding them cheaper), I think this is a better alternative (a lot better IQ) though you will really need a much bigger pocket to make it pocketable. If you don't mind a small belt-bag, then it's also easy to lug with you around.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 10, 2012)

I went to our local pro camera store and looked at all the mirrorless cameras. If you like ultra wide images, forget it. If you like good optical viewfinders, or any viewfinder at all, you may be sadly disappoiinted.
My impression is that there is going to be a fallout, and some manufacturers will go away. This might leave you in a dead end position with a lot of money invested in lenses.
Micro 4/3 is likely safe, Nikon is likely safe. Sony drops models like a hot rock if sales disappoint, they have yet to show any sign of long term support. I also would be concerned about buying a $1500 or more fixed lens camera (Unless its a Leica). You will have a lot of money tied up in the glass and as the body becomes obsolete, its a big hit. The lower end bodies will become obsolete too, but at least you don't see a $3,000 camera depreciate to $300 in 5 years.


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## Synomis192 (Sep 10, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> I have a G11 but I'd say, IQ isn't that much different from S100. After post-processing, there's almost no difference. Though S100 is a little bit (very little) better in low-light. For me G11/G12 is a little bit big to be pocketable but it really depends on the size of your pocket.  Go for a G12 or S100 depending on what you prefer. (smaller vs swivel screen, easier controls, emergency ovf, emergency hotshoe). For me, G12 (though G11 for me) is better since it's also my backup camera. I can fit a really good external flash (albeit, sacrificing comfort) when I want better pictures.
> 
> P.S. If you can find a Sony NEX 3 (second-hand), that is sold at around G12/S100 price, (I keep on finding them cheaper), I think this is a better alternative (a lot better IQ) though you will really need a much bigger pocket to make it pocketable. If you don't mind a small belt-bag, then it's also easy to lug with you around.



I do like that hotshoe on the G12. I think my girlfriend wouldn't mind if I made her carry my 430exII in her bag :] Girl's bags are always unexplainable. 

I've been actually looking at the Sony C3. It's got better reviews than the bigger brother Nex-5n. It's smaller, and it has usable images at about 1000iso. 



Jotho said:


> The G11 is an old camera, I think you refer to the newer more advanced G1x.



On Amazon, the G12 sells for 379.99 the G11 sells for 629.99. Haha I'm not kidding.



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I went to our local pro camera store and looked at all the mirrorless cameras. If you like ultra wide images, forget it. If you like good optical viewfinders, or any viewfinder at all, you may be sadly disappoiinted.
> My impression is that there is going to be a fallout, and some manufacturers will go away. This might leave you in a dead end position with a lot of money invested in lenses.
> Micro 4/3 is likely safe, Nikon is likely safe. Sony drops models like a hot rock if sales disappoint, they have yet to show any sign of long term support. I also would be concerned about buying a $1500 or more fixed lens camera (Unless its a Leica). You will have a lot of money tied up in the glass and as the body becomes obsolete, its a big hit. The lower end bodies will become obsolete too, but at least you don't see a $3,000 camera depreciate to $300 in 5 years.



I don't mind Viewfinders, but I do mind that wide angle part. I like shooting at 18mm on my Canon T1i. About 510 of my 1400 pictures are shot at 18mm. 
What exactly are mirrorless cameras? Are cameras like the Sony NEX-5n considered a mirrorless camera? Or are you talking about Cameras like the Olympus E-PL2. 

Do you have any Mirco 4/3s cameras that you'd like to recommend?


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## Hillsilly (Sep 10, 2012)

Can you increase the budget a bit? If so, have a look at the Sigma DP2 Merrill. Apart from price, it seems to meet your other criteria. Its even been suggested that the image quality exceeds most DSLRs (not the Canon ones, of course!).


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## verysimplejason (Sep 10, 2012)

Sony NEX cameras are mirrorless and APS-C thus my recommendation. It's a lot better than those high-end point-and-shoot. Of course, it's price is also very near that of an APS-C DSLR. Also the size of lenses are just a little bit smaller than a DSLR. Otherwise this is one of the best mirrorless around. (Canon has EOS-M, Samsung has NX, and Fujifilm). If you're a Canon user, it might be good to wait for the EOS-M. At least with an extra lens adaptor it can also use your Canon lenses. The EOS-M will be a good body for most Canon users since aside being used as a lightweight alternative, it is also a perfect backup camera.


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## elflord (Sep 10, 2012)

Synomis192 said:


> What exactly are mirrorless cameras? Are cameras like the Sony NEX-5n considered a mirrorless camera? Or are you talking about Cameras like the Olympus E-PL2.
> 
> Do you have any Mirco 4/3s cameras that you'd like to recommend?



"Mirrorless" literally just means "doesn't have a mirror" (not an SLR). However, the term is generally used to refer to cameras with large sensors comparable to DSLR size, and usually interchangeable lenses (So the Sony and m43 would fit into this category). Micro 4/3 has the best selection of lenses of the mirrorless cameras. 

I'd recommend any of the older bodies. They are very inexpensive if you buy used. I own the panasonic GF2. (edit one advantage of this one is the touch screen-- very handy for selecting the focus point)

Another thing to keep in mind -- the mirrorless cameras (like the GF2, EPL2 or Sony NEX) will generally do better at high ISOs than small sensor point and shoots (like the G12. LX5 or S100), especially at high ISOs. Its a size/image quality tradeoff. 

(edit) mirrorless cameras will generally allow you to use your canon lenses in conjunction with an inexpensive adapter. However, you can't change the aperture while the lens is mounted and the lens is manual focus only. Though I wouldn't recommend it for day to day shooting, it's a nice perk that will help you get some interesting shots.


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## Michael_pfh (Sep 10, 2012)

I tested the Sony RX100 at a shop yesterday - it definitely is pocketable being only slightly bigger than the S100. I will see what the Photokina brings in terms of S100 successor and then decide whether to go for the RX100 or S1xx.


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## adhocphotographer (Sep 10, 2012)

Thanks for the info... i'm looking for a camera for me... errrr i mean my wife... a small camera for my wife!


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## chasn (Sep 10, 2012)

on my last holiday I took a G1x in a waterproof case and a 5DII with different uses for each in mind. In the end I used them both interchangeably for stills and video admittedly not in situations playing to eithers strengths or weaknesses. People do mention the slow focus of the G1x which is fair comment but in reasonable light and for many purposes I think the IQ is brilliant. As others have said I can't see what a G12 replacement has that isn't the G1x.


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## cliffwang (Sep 10, 2012)

adhocphotographer said:


> Thanks for the info... i'm looking for a camera for me... errrr i mean my wife... a small camera for my wife!


On the same board. I am also looking for a compact camera for my wife. Here is my watch list.
Sony RX100
Fujifilm X-Pro1 & X-E1
Olympus OM-D E-M5
Panasonic DMC-GF5


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## verysimplejason (Sep 11, 2012)

For Canon users, EOS-M is the best mirrorless camera around. Aperture and AF is perfectly working with EOS-M. Even if you use larger lenses like EF-S and EF they will still perfectly work. If you are invested in Canon, just opt for an EOS-M. This way you'll have a perfect backup camera as well as your large pocketable (you might need a small belt bag instead) camera.



elflord said:


> Synomis192 said:
> 
> 
> > What exactly are mirrorless cameras? Are cameras like the Sony NEX-5n considered a mirrorless camera? Or are you talking about Cameras like the Olympus E-PL2.
> ...


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## verysimplejason (Sep 11, 2012)

For the price of those cameras, why not invest in an EOS-M with a 22mm pancake? The 22mm is fast @ F2.0 and wide enough. You can use it as well for emergency cases.  I'm not saying it's the best around but at least you and your wife can share equipment.



cliffwang said:


> adhocphotographer said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the info... i'm looking for a camera for me... errrr i mean my wife... a small camera for my wife!
> ...


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## elflord (Sep 12, 2012)

cliffwang said:


> adhocphotographer said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the info... i'm looking for a camera for me... errrr i mean my wife... a small camera for my wife!
> ...



Might want to wait for the DxOMark results on the Olympus OM-D, but based on the dpreview samples, it looks really promising. The sensor is made by Sony, so for once, micro 4/3 get cutting edge sensor technology.


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## elflord (Sep 12, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> For Canon users, EOS-M is the best mirrorless camera around. Aperture and AF is perfectly working with EOS-M. Even if you use larger lenses like EF-S and EF they will still perfectly work. If you are invested in Canon, just opt for an EOS-M. This way you'll have a perfect backup camera as well as your large pocketable (you might need a small belt bag instead) camera.



Having EF and EF-S lenses work with autofocus is a pretty compelling advantage -- which the EOS-M has and micro 4/3 does not.

But then, so is having a good system of native lenses. Where are the native wide angle, portrait, tele and macro lenses for EOS-M ? Perhaps it is forgivable that there aren't such lenses yet, but there is no road map either -- so noone knows whether EOS-M will become a complete system or whether it will be just a "super point-and-shoot", an also-ran in what has become a very crowded field (a field hat Canon appears to be dead last to enter). 

It's also nice to know that the manufacturer is committed to the system. There are two manufacturers committed to micro 4/3. THere are 1 or 0 manufacturers committed to EOS-M (no lens road map, only two lenses available).

Canon are clearly one of the leaders in SLRs (only Nikon is close) but perhaps because of their dominant position in the SLR world, both Canon and Nikon's entires in the mirrorless market were too little, too late. The best they can hope for is to piggy back on their SLRs, because neither of these products can stand on their own merits. Both the Nikon 1 and the EOS-M are dwarfed by competition from Olympus/Panasonic (micro 4/3) Fuji (X-Pro series), Sony (NEX) and Samsung.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 12, 2012)

I didn't bother with the lens roadmap because I'm already looking at the EF and EFS lens lineup which is extensive enough. It will be advantageous if instead of looking at native lenses, one looks at the advantage of looking at EF and EF-S lenses instead so that in the future, if you want to go to the next level, it will be an easy transition, not to say having a perfect backup camera at your disposal. For those upgraders from p&S, I think this "roadmap" is a better one unless you're planning to stay at that level, then I recommend other better alternatives since you're not invested in lenses. I mean, why invest in something you cannot use later if you want to go to the next level (DSLR APS-C/FF)?



elflord said:


> verysimplejason said:
> 
> 
> > For Canon users, EOS-M is the best mirrorless camera around. Aperture and AF is perfectly working with EOS-M. Even if you use larger lenses like EF-S and EF they will still perfectly work. If you are invested in Canon, just opt for an EOS-M. This way you'll have a perfect backup camera as well as your large pocketable (you might need a small belt bag instead) camera.
> ...


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## elflord (Sep 12, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> I didn't bother with the lens roadmap because I'm already looking at the EF and EFS lens lineup which is extensive enough. It will be advantageous if instead of looking at native lenses, one looks at the advantage of looking at EF and EF-S lenses instead



[EDIT] it does seem to me like we're saying the same thing, we just phrase it differently. The EOS-M really is just piggy-backing on top of Canon's EOS system. It isn't a system camera in its own right. If you want to buy a mirrorless as a way to extend your Canon DSLR system, then I agree that it makes sense.

My critique is really directed at how it stands up to the competition in its own right. To me, it's pretty clear that it's close to dead last (only the duds from Nikon and Pentax are in the same territory)

First, if you want to buy a camera to use the EOS system of lenses (which I agree is a very strong system), your best choice is a DSLR. Assuming you don't own a DSLR and want to use EF glass, there's not much point in my opinion getting the EOS-M. You could get the latest Rebel for the same price. 

EF (and EF-S) lenses blow the compactness advantage you otherwise get from a mirrorless camera because of the longer flange distances. So there's not much point in the Canon mirrorless unless the native lenses are adequate. 



> I mean, why invest in something you cannot use later if you want to go to the next level (DSLR APS-C/FF)?



Because that thing might be more suitable. Because it makes more sense to buy glass for the camera you have now, not for the one you might buy later. For example, that's why APS-C users buy EF-S lenses for wide angle -- full frame lenses aren't wide enough.


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