# Best body and lens for product Photography - Request for Comment



## racgordon (Aug 16, 2013)

I have to recommend and then put together a very specific product photography solution and wondered if anyone would care to offer advice or the usual well meaning personal abuse on my thoughts  ............

The user needs to photograph HO scale model locomotives on a dressed product stage that is about 24" x 20". The models are vary from 8 - 12" in length with a width of around 1.25" and a height of 1.5". The lighting is going to 2-3 small softboxes with 200W to 600W equivalent daylight balanced fluorescent bulbs. The user's idea (translated into tech) is to use a camera with good Delta E and minimal noise to generate 10-12MB files which will either be used for high quality print production, or downsized for website. User likes idea of tethering a camera mounted on a tripod (and probably on a 4 axis macro rail on top of a huge arca-swiss type ball head) to a mac, and using tethered live view for composition, dof etc. The workflow is to acquire and color correct in Lightroom possibly using an HDR plug-in with certain product color combinations which might require expanding tonal range)the drop into photoshop for any retouching. The user is color savvy (did digital ore-press work) and understands how to create and use color profiles etc.
The camera has NO OTHER USE, and VIDEO is not required.

My first thought was to use a "low mileage" original 5D as that imager was really nice, the only issues being with the AF speed (which is irrelevant in this application). I do not remember its live view capability.

Now, lenses......

Canon 24-105EF or original 24-70/2.8? plus 50/1.8 or perhaps a 45TS (probably will induce heart failure when it comes to cost). Possibly something longer towards 100mm as a prime Macro.

Would anyone like to comment?

This will be a permanent setup and the goal is really High Quality illustration.


----------



## Skirball (Aug 16, 2013)

Or you could just use a Rebel and a macro lens. I don’t know, if someone needs to ask recommendation on camera and lens then I wonder if they have the lighting skills for product photography – something that is going to have more of an impact on the final product than the camera body you use. I know you say that you want high quality illustration, but that's hard to judge exactly what you consider high quality over the internet. 

A 45 or 90 t/s (if you have the space) would be great if you have the cash, personally I’d put it into that before the body. Though if you’re ok with used and want FF an original 5d would be great. Not sure why you’re worrying about AF if you’re thinking about using a t/s. I’ll tell you what I wouldn’t do, any of the zooms or the 50mm 1.8. Any prime macro will give you better results. You don’t need, nor want, large apertures for this application and you have lights.

I have no idea about your 4-axis macro rail on arca-swiss ball head tethered to Mac using HDR plug-in with non-linear Euclidean transformations of the color profile in 4 dimensions. Sounds like a lot of fluff to me. You’re shooting stationary toy models in a studio setting.


----------



## Harry Muff (Aug 16, 2013)

5D3 with 100 2.8L IS


----------



## Click (Aug 16, 2013)

Harry Muff said:


> 5D3 with 100 2.8L IS



+1


----------



## Drizzt321 (Aug 16, 2013)

5d3 is probably overkill, I'd go 6D if you want a new body, or 5d2 otherwise. The 100L Macro would be great for taking closeup/macro shots of the details, but for the wider shots the 45mm TS or 90mm TS would be better since they'd let you control the plane of focus to make sure the entire subject was in focus without having to do focus stacking. Plus, with extension tubes, they'd let you get closeup/macro shots of other parts while still controlling the plane of focus. At ~$1300 new for either of those lenses, they're not too horribly priced.

As for the 4-axis Macro rails, may be a bit extreme until the end-user has more experience shooting products & macro, but I'm sure it'd be nice to have.

Also, don't forget lighting!! Either some decent strobes/speedlights, or strobes + macro ring and softboxes to make sure everything is nice and evenly lit.


----------



## rs (Aug 16, 2013)

If you want macro, and it'll only ever be tripod mounted, get the non L version of the 100 - it's virtually identical to the L wide open, and it'll be used stopped down a lot. Weather sealing and IS are irrelevant in this scenario. A 45 or preferably 90 TS-E, possibly with extension tubes does sound more suitable due to the potential gains in DoF, but it's a much steeper learning curve.

If you absolutely need FF (tripod mounted and stationary objects means no need for any high ISO's, or good high ISO performance), the cheapest body with remote live view is a second hand 5D2. If you struggle to find one at a good price, get a 6D instead. No need for the extra features of the 5D3 if you're only ever shooting with manual focus, indoors, remotely. However, any crop camera with remote live view will do the trick - and there are plenty of those to choose from.


----------



## Skirball (Aug 16, 2013)

Harry Muff said:


> 5D3 with 100 2.8L IS



Definitely going to need that AF performance and image stabilization.


----------



## brad-man (Aug 16, 2013)

Click said:


> Harry Muff said:
> 
> 
> > 5D3 with 100 2.8L IS
> ...





Harry Muff said:


> 5D3 with 100 2.8L IS



Really? Why not a 1DX. Or would THAT be overkill ;D


----------



## Vossie (Aug 16, 2013)

With the dimensions the OP mentions, I don't think that he would need to have a dedicated macro lens. The TS-E 90mm can achieve a reproduction of 0.29x and allows use of changing the angle of your focal field. That will allow you to get much more in focus without getting soft images because of diffraction. When combined with an extension tube, you can get near-macro performance.

The TS-E 45mm could also be an interesting option, but does not give an as large reproduction as the 90mm.

Bodywise the 5D2 or 6D could be good options. You do not need the fast AF of the 5D3 and since you will be working with still objects from tripod with studio lighting, ISO performance is also not relevant.


----------



## Vossie (Aug 16, 2013)

rs said:


> If you want macro, and it'll only ever be tripod mounted, get the non L version of the 100 - it's virtually identical to the L wide open, and it'll be used stopped down a lot. Weather sealing and IS are irrelevant in this scenario. A 45 or preferably 90 TS-E, possibly with extension tubes does sound more suitable due to the potential gains in DoF, but it's a much steeper learning curve.
> 
> If you absolutely need FF (tripod mounted and stationary objects means no need for any high ISO's, or good high ISO performance), the cheapest body with remote live view is a second hand 5D2. If you struggle to find one at a good price, get a 6D instead. No need for the extra features of the 5D3 if you're only ever shooting with manual focus, indoors, remotely. However, any crop camera with remote live view will do the trick - and there are plenty of those to choose from.



Oversaw this reply. But I fully second that.

One other advantage of the 6D is the built-in WiFi, which can be nice for tethered shooting.


----------



## Skirball (Aug 16, 2013)

Vossie said:


> rs said:
> 
> 
> > If you want macro, and it'll only ever be tripod mounted, get the non L version of the 100 - it's virtually identical to the L wide open, and it'll be used stopped down a lot. Weather sealing and IS are irrelevant in this scenario. A 45 or preferably 90 TS-E, possibly with extension tubes does sound more suitable due to the potential gains in DoF, but it's a much steeper learning curve.
> ...



As an owner of a 6D, if it's sitting on a tripod I'm just grabbing a USB cable. Though yes, it's nice to have the option.


----------



## racgordon (Aug 17, 2013)

The user (and I for that matter) has lots of experience in the semi analog world, where this would have been shot on (slide) film (probably a Canon F1 and Tamron 90/2.5 Macro or Canon 100/2.8FD or some old 'blad and a Zeiss Makro Planar 120/4). It would then have been scanned on a flatbed, or drum scanner, trying like hell to do the color correction for fluorescent at acquisition, not after the fact in software. In fact in the old days" we did just that.

The concern about the imager is a desire to minimize on noise, so that as much detail as possible can be shown in shadow. Remember the target output is your average commercial 4-color printing press, printing on glossy paper and trying to use a 150 to 175 line screen. That is a demanding output medium especially if you want to keep the shadows without blowing out the highlights.

The problem with the Rebels and the d60 is the amount and type of noise that can be picked up in shadow area. The imagers used on the 5D, and onwards is more forgiving in this area, even the 40D is.

However cost is a major factor. One of the arguments for not going with a TS lens is the size of the shooting stage and the shape of the product being shot. You only need +-18" DOF around the hyperfocul distance at most. Also at the most the need is going to be for a 1:2 or 1:4 reproduction ratio (assuming a 24x36 imager).

As far as the 4 axis macro rails....... once you have used those on a small shooting stage, you never go back. it becomes tedious moving around a 20lb awkwardly shaped tripod /camera/lens/matte box setup when all you need is 4-6" this way or that.

The Arca Swiss style of ballhead (whoever makes the one you are using), gives you all of the advantages of a ball head whilst supporting the camera etc, on an oversized ball, stem and plate, which makes fine adjustments easier, in all axes.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 17, 2013)

The type of lens depends on how close to the subject you want to be. I'd not use the 24-70 L in any event, curvature of field means it is only sharp in the center unless stopped way down and not near MFD.

10-12 years ago I used my Nikon Coolpix 990 for product photography, it was fine.

The TS-e 90 is "The" product photography lens, so rent one as long as the focal length is right.


----------



## Drizzt321 (Aug 17, 2013)

racgordon said:


> The problem with the Rebels and the d60 is the amount and type of noise that can be picked up in shadow area. The imagers used on the 5D, and onwards is more forgiving in this area, even the 40D is.



I think you're confusing what some of us are saying. We're saying the *6D* or *5D Mark II* are probably more relevant to your needs.

Your desire to minimize noise basically can be summed up by "so, what about lighting?" You're on a tripod, so long exposures are possible. You're also in a room of some kind, with outlets, so any kind of strobes (monolights or other) is easily possible. Get some low end but quality lights, with large softboxes, and use that to shoot at ISO 100 and a smallish aperture.


----------



## verysimplejason (Aug 17, 2013)

Since you must be using speedlights/strobes, a rebel (450D or better) or an old 5D/5D2 is more than sufficient. Your problem will be on your lens. I suggest a 100mm F2.8 macro (IS would not be so useful on a tripod), 50mm F1.8 (it's good enough for your purpose since bokeh and AF won't be a problem so much) and get a TS-E 90mm or 45mm only if you're not satisfied with that 2 lens combo. Rather than get expensive body and lenses, for this kind of photoshoot, I'd rather invest on good lighting and lighting modifiers. Also, get a good and stable tripod.


----------



## DJL329 (Aug 17, 2013)

racgordon said:


> My first thought was to use a "low mileage" original 5D as that imager was really nice, the only issues being with the AF speed (which is irrelevant in this application). I do not remember its live view capability.



The original 5D does not have Live View -- I remember because it was one of the reasons I skipped it and waited for the 5D Mark II.


----------



## drmikeinpdx (Aug 17, 2013)

Would not a crop sensor body give more depth of field than a FF body, all else being equal? 

You are going to be stopped down a lot, so autofocus accuracy is not a big issue.

I think the OP mentioned HDR, which kinda moots the noise argument.

The more I think about it, any body that lends itself to tethered work would be usable. I'd spend more on the lens.


----------



## pwp (Aug 17, 2013)

Harry Muff said:


> 5D3 with 100 2.8L IS



5D3 with 45 TS-E or the brilliant 90 TS-E which may have run-out pricing right now. Non-TS 100 is too long for the OP's purpose.
Read up here:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/tilt-shift-lenses2.htm
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/tilt-shift-lenses1.htm
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/focusing-ts.shtml
http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2011/intro_tilt_shift_lenses_article.shtml

-PW


----------



## verysimplejason (Aug 18, 2013)

pwp said:


> Harry Muff said:
> 
> 
> > 5D3 with 100 2.8L IS
> ...



I'm sorry but I can't get the rationale behind spending so much on the body, 5D3 for product photography when you can spend your money for better lighting and lens.


----------



## racgordon (Aug 18, 2013)

I appreciate all the suggestions.

Still somewhat in a state of analysis paralysis, but I think we will drop some money on some lens rentals. I think we will look at some used 5DII bodies something with 25-50K shutter cycles shoukd be ok and then send it in for a CLR.

Doing some math a 90mm or thereabouts (on full frame) should give sufficient DOF stopped down to F8. Having done some measurements with some likely model setups, the MAXIMUM DOF we would need is 10" either side of the point of focus, which is not that much. I am not suer a TS lens would be justified (pity). Have to look at how close the various lenses around that focal length focus. The other option of course would be to go Manual Focus and throw an older medium format closes focusing lens on there. That would take advantage of the beauty of using live view on a tethered body, where you can check your focus on an image on a large monitor.

Based on tests we are going to use Multiple photo fluorescents in the softboxes. Even some of the cheapo Chinese "photo" bulbs work quite well, although we will probably end us using some osram's as there color balance range is much tighter and AWB on most modern cameras work well with them.

Will post results when we have tested


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 18, 2013)

A used 5DII and a TS-E 90mm f/2.8...


----------



## Drizzt321 (Aug 19, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> A used 5DII and a TS-E 90mm f/2.8...



And...we're done


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Aug 19, 2013)

Are you at the wind up? Lots of bluff and bluster, I don't think any answer is going to be good enough here...




racgordon said:


> Also at the most the need is going to be for a 1:2 or 1:4 reproduction ratio (assuming a 24x36 imager).


 
It's worth noting that the reproduction ratio is irrelevant in terms of imager dimensions, all that's doing is cropping the projected image circle, the projected 1:2 or 1:4 ratio will be the same at the focal plane whether you are shooting on film, 135 format digital or APS-C cropped digital (or even APS-H digital)

The sensor crop is relevant in terms of effective angle of view, and this in turn determines perspective and working distance, and therefore depth of field, but it has nothing at all to do with reproduction ratio.

In practise this is less important these days for most users as digital cropping, large screen projection / high resolution printing can usually get you to where you want to be.

I'm struggling to think of any 'macro' lenses that will actually deliver 1:2 max these days, probably only the Canon 50mm f2.5 springs to mind. 1:1 macros are usually marked for 1:2, 1:3, 1;4 etc.

I think you are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. We aren't doing drum scanning here, so you don't have to calibrate daylight film to flouro light, a grey card is all you need, shoot RAW and you can even play with it in post, at 16bit pull downs.

As for shadow noise, this really does ring troll alarm bells. QUITE LOUDLY.

Apologies if I'm wrong. Say hello to photoshop. Say hello to Adobe Camera Raw.

Your old way of working is dead. Set whatever you buy to adobe RGB from camera to software.
Calibrate your monitor.

Wrattens etc are dead.

If I've got you wrong I apologise. There are just some cues to your writing and archaic terminology that seems to be either trying to test our knowledge or expertise, or is at the wind up.

Maybe moderate your tone and you'll get more kindly moderated answers.


----------

