# Another announcement: Nikon D500!



## xps (Jan 5, 2016)

Found at dpreview.com
http://www.dpreview.com/news/8529664044/here-at-last-nikon-announces-d500

"It features the same *153-point AF* 8) system and EXPEED 5 processor. It can shoot c*ontinuously at 10 fps with a 200 shot buffer for Raw images* 8). It can also capture 4K/UHD video and also features 'SnapBridge', a constant connection to a smartphone using Bluetooth, similar to what Samsung did with its NX1. "

WOW.
Canon, come on and beat or meet this. Please


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 5, 2016)

[quote author=Nikon]
For further durability, the D500 excludes a pop-up flash
[/quote]

:-X


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## xps (Jan 5, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> [quote author=Nikon]
> For further durability, the D500 excludes a pop-up flash



:-X
[/quote]

Well, I could live with this missing feature, if it would be from Canon.
If I understand the message right, this Cam must have an incredible AF (many points) and an excellent speed. 
They corrected the original posting "while a generous buffer allows for up to 79 shots (14-bit, uncompressed RAW/NEF) to be captured" 
"D500’s bright 3.2-inch, high resolution (2359K-dot) touchscreen LCD" - would be fine on an Canon cam too.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 5, 2016)

In fact, it looks like an excellent offering from Nikon for crop shooters.


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## xps (Jan 5, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> In fact, it looks like an excellent offering from Nikon for crop shooters.



+1
My hope: Canon will announce an stellar 1DXII and 5DIV (as they announced the 7DII last year, there will be no successor in the next month/years)


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## Proscribo (Jan 5, 2016)

My god, I bought 7DII just yesterday!! ;D

Then again, that seems to cost double of what I paid for 7D.


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## ahsanford (Jan 5, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> In fact, it looks like an excellent offering from Nikon for crop shooters.



http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/05/nikons-reveals-the-d500-dslr/

And here I thought Nikon was prepared to let the 'pro crop' market fall to Canon with the 7D2. 

10 fps X 20 MP with a clown car full of AF points. Always on bluetooth to your phone.

Did I read that right? IBIS for video?

- A


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## bsbeamer (Jan 5, 2016)

This looks like an amazing camera, spec-wise. Can't wait to see actual reviews.


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## ahsanford (Jan 5, 2016)

Add 4K to that list of specs:

http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/microsite/d500/

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 5, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Did I read that right? IBIS for video?



Digital IS, not optical.


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## ahsanford (Jan 5, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Did I read that right? IBIS for video?
> ...



Ah, also a gold mine of details here:
http://chsvimg.nikon.com/lineup/microsite/d500/common/pdf/technology-digest.pdf

This thing looks impressive -- it's a crop D5 + tilt-screen + _additional_ crop (of a crop) mode + anti-flicker stills + 4K.

They seem to have a dedicated metering / scene / face ID unit like a 1D body.

Will sell very, very well.

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 5, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Will sell very, very well.



The $2K price tag might blunt that a bit.


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## wockawocka (Jan 5, 2016)

The more time passes the more chance I'll be running a dual brand setup by April.


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## lw (Jan 5, 2016)

Automatic MAF


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## ahsanford (Jan 5, 2016)

lw said:


> Automatic MAF



Good catch. Check that PDF link, re 'AF Fine-tuning Process':

"Achieves focus in live view photography -- Automatic setting of adjustment value with a few button operations"

- A


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## lw (Jan 5, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Add 4K to that list of specs:
> 
> http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/microsite/d500/
> 
> - A



And 4K time-lapse


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## Don Haines (Jan 5, 2016)

impressive!

I will be very interested in seeing the sample images....


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## jebrady03 (Jan 5, 2016)

That sounds like an incredible camera. Well worth the asking price for those who need it's performance! Well done Nikon!


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 5, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> lw said:
> 
> 
> > Automatic MAF
> ...



Nice, if accurate. Recall Uncle Roger's article about poor live view accuracy with some combos. Hopefully it does more that take one shot in live view.


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## TeT (Jan 5, 2016)

wockawocka said:


> The more time passes the more chance I'll be running a dual brand setup by April.


Canon/Nikon dual brand

If you are not running it yet, you won't be... I would bet you more likely to switch or stay then to run both..


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## arbitrage (Jan 5, 2016)

53 selectable AF points, 35x-type selectable...I'd like to see the actual AF module as I doubt all those tightly packed extras sensors are actual sensors on the AF module....

More detailed specs: http://chsvimg.nikon.com/lineup/microsite/d500/common/pdf/technology-digest.pdf


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## Bennymiata (Jan 5, 2016)

Sounds like Nikon read this forum.

I hope Canon does too.


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## RickWagoner (Jan 5, 2016)

Man the D500 just slaughtered the 7d2...it even has bluetooth and tilty screen. 200 buffer with RAW at 10 fps..4k video....DAMN!!!!!!!!! For $2k this thing is a steal esp when you compare it at the going price rite now of $1500 on the 7d2.



Well least you 7d2 owners only have to wait another 4 years for Canon to update it...oops.


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## tr573 (Jan 5, 2016)

arbitrage said:


> 53 selectable AF points, 35x-type selectable...I'd like to see the actual AF module as I doubt all those tightly packed extras sensors are actual sensors on the AF module....
> 
> More detailed specs: http://chsvimg.nikon.com/lineup/microsite/d500/common/pdf/technology-digest.pdf



This probably works out in practice the same way Canon has their AF sensors laid out. The normal one extends far beyond the box, so that they all overlap for tracking handoff. Spot narrows it down to just the area inside the box. Marketing department is calling that overlap a "feature" to give it a huge # of AF points on the box


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## ahsanford (Jan 5, 2016)

RickWagoner said:


> Man the D500 just slaughtered the 7d2...it even has bluetooth and tilty screen. 200 buffer with RAW at 10 fps..4k video....DAMN!!!!!!!!! For $2k this thing is a steal esp when you compare it at the going price rite now of $1500 on the 7d2.
> 
> Well least you 7d2 owners only have to wait another 4 years for Canon to update it...oops.



Whereas the 7D2 is '1DX-like' for some things (AF in particular), the D500 looks like a straight-up D5 with a crop sensor. This is a formidable rig at first glance.

- A


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## Don Haines (Jan 5, 2016)

RickWagoner said:


> Man the D500 just slaughtered the 7d2...it even has bluetooth and tilty screen. 200 buffer with RAW at 10 fps..4k video....DAMN!!!!!!!!! For $2k this thing is a steal esp when you compare it at the going price rite now of $1500 on the 7d2.
> 
> Well least you 7d2 owners only have to wait another 4 years for Canon to update it...oops.



What do yu mean slaughtered the 7D2? It slaughters everything!


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## RickWagoner (Jan 5, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > Man the D500 just slaughtered the 7d2...it even has bluetooth and tilty screen. 200 buffer with RAW at 10 fps..4k video....DAMN!!!!!!!!! For $2k this thing is a steal esp when you compare it at the going price rite now of $1500 on the 7d2.
> ...



the best part is you can Throw any of the three well known and well reviewed 150-600mm third party lenses and have an incredible time shooting with great glass.


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## bholliman (Jan 5, 2016)

RickWagoner said:


> Man the D500 just slaughtered the 7d2...it even has bluetooth and tilty screen. 200 buffer with RAW at 10 fps..4k video....DAMN!!!!!!!!! For $2k this thing is a steal esp when you compare it at the going price rite now of $1500 on the 7d2.
> Well least you 7d2 owners only have to wait another 4 years for Canon to update it...oops.



Definitely a great camera according to the specs. Not sure it's a huge upgrade from the 7D2 for a stills shooter however, especially with 7D2 prices approaching $1K, roughly 1/2 what the D500 will introduce at.

RAW buffer is actually 79 shots, see the revised press release "while a generous buffer allows for up to 79 shots (14-bit, uncompressed RAW/NEF) to be captured"

The AF system and AF point coverage are very interesting. Looking forward to seeing the hands-on reviews.


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## ahsanford (Jan 5, 2016)

RickWagoner said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > RickWagoner said:
> ...



150-600 X 1.5 crop X 1.3 additional crop mode ('crop of a crop') = 1170mm reach without needing an AF slowing teleconverter. Reach-obsessed folks should love that.

(Yes, you can always similarly crop a 7D2 shot in post, but you can't share that with the world right away like this can, can you? )

- A


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## RickWagoner (Jan 5, 2016)

bholliman said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > Man the D500 just slaughtered the 7d2...it even has bluetooth and tilty screen. 200 buffer with RAW at 10 fps..4k video....DAMN!!!!!!!!! For $2k this thing is a steal esp when you compare it at the going price rite now of $1500 on the 7d2.
> ...



even if you compare the 79 frames to the 24 real 7d2 the D500 still pounces. The $1k price is mostly gone now, overall the 7d2 is back up to $1500. How are you not sure of it being an upgrade? it even has tilty touchy screen that Canon said they can not do in the 7d2..not to mention it is a bit lighter and thinner than the 7d2..my bird photographing mouth is on the floor!


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## Proscribo (Jan 5, 2016)

RickWagoner said:


> even if you compare the 79 frames to the 24 real 7d2 the D500 still pounces. The $1k price is mostly gone now, overall the 7d2 is back up to $1500. How are you not sure of it being an upgrade? it even has tilty touchy screen that Canon said they can not do in the 7d2..not to mention it is a bit lighter and thinner than the 7d2..my bird photographing mouth is on the floor!


He said a huge upgrade, which it certainly is not, unless you need 4K video.


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## wsmith96 (Jan 5, 2016)

RickWagoner said:


> Man the D500 just slaughtered the 7d2...it even has bluetooth and tilty screen. 200 buffer with RAW at 10 fps..4k video....DAMN!!!!!!!!! For $2k this thing is a steal esp when you compare it at the going price rite now of $1500 on the 7d2.
> 
> 
> 
> Well least you 7d2 owners only have to wait another 4 years for Canon to update it...oops.



Wait, I thought that tilt/articulate screens weren't for pro level cameras...


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## Busted Knuckles (Jan 5, 2016)

No doubt this is a spec monster. I will at the moment assume that the sensor is certainly no worse than current, probably at least a mild improvement.

So let the reviews begin, see what the big "C" does in response. I would think they have a pretty decent line up.

D5 for the pro's pro body. 
D500 for the crop sports/wildlife/smaller form factor
D810 for the landscape "high res" shooters.
D750 for the enthusiasts?

Pretty darn capable line up if you ask me - certainly makes up for the stumble on the retro body attempt.

I recall saying something about 30 fps HD being an interesting sport shooting mode, 4k 30 fps gets interesting - bit depth is going to be a key, if the rolling shutter is minimal for web/TV oriented work......

conclusion - fun to be hobbying in the imaging world, a bit better than a box of chocolates


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## unfocused (Jan 5, 2016)

As a 7DII user, this is great news. I did not like the fact that Nikon had seemed to abandon the pro-level crop market, leaving a monopoly for Canon. Canon delivered very nicely with the 7DII, when they didn't have to (no real competition). This is a long-awaited upgrade for Nikon users, which bodes well for the future of pro-crop sensor cameras.


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## expatinasia (Jan 5, 2016)

I am amazed by the D500 announcement. I bet potential buyers of the 5D Mark IV are all crossing their fingers that it will compete with that. Some amazing features for a camera that on launch has a US$ 1,999 RRP.

Hats off to Nikon for not only keeping this a secret, but bringing out what should be an amazing camera.

I really like some of the specs: USB 3.0, all those AF points, 10FPS, ability to easily transfer pics to a mobile phone, etc. etc.

My only negative surprise would be why they announced both the D5 and D500 on the same night. Sure you have a captive audience of post new-year hungry for news journos, but the D500 has made such an impact it has taken some of the spotlight away from the 5D which costs over 3 times as much.

The other announcement of the day which caught my attention was Panasonic's Lumix DMC-TZ100 (competition to the Sony RX100 Mark IV).


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## wsmith96 (Jan 5, 2016)

dilbert said:


> wsmith96 said:
> 
> 
> > RickWagoner said:
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I'd take both features on my camera. Hoping both will be on the 5D4 or 6D2


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## ahsanford (Jan 5, 2016)

Comments in-line below:



Busted Knuckles said:


> So let the reviews begin, see what the big "C" does in response. I would think they have a pretty decent line up.
> 
> D5 for the pro's pro body. --> highest end studio / reportage / sideline sports folks
> 
> ...



Yeah, it's a strong lineup. If you drop the aging 5D3 down alongside the D750, you get:

1DX II vs. D5 (should be very very close in overall appeal)

5DS R vs. D810 (Canon nudges ahead on detail, the Nikon has the landscape/studio DR edge)

5D3 vs. D750 (the 5D3 is more workhorse-ish / capable / tweakable, but the D750 is more recent with a better sensor, tilting screen, drool-worthy spot meter at any AF point, etc.)

6D vs. D610 (yawn, but both could improve)

D500 vs. 7D2 (not a contest from a spec-sheet perspective, but let's wait for reviews.)

Presuming we see the 1DX II soon, I see Canon's biggest hole being the 7D2 and 5D3 -- the 5D4 in particular is long overdue to break the market Venn diagram and try to conquer the 'do-everything non-gripped FF rig' arena between that the D750 and D810 currently sort-of occupy -- you know, the space the 5D3 occupied at launch 4 years ago.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jan 5, 2016)

expatinasia said:


> I am amazed by the D500 announcement. I bet potential buyers of the 5D Mark IV are all crossing their fingers that it will compete with that. Some amazing features for a camera that on launch has a US$ 1,999 RRP.



Apples and oranges. The 5D4 is the Indiana Jones of Canon's lineup -- it's a ~ $3,500 do-everything-well sort of rig.

The D500, though impressive, is a 7D2 killer. Nothing more.

- A


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## scyrene (Jan 5, 2016)

lw said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Add 4K to that list of specs:
> ...



Surely time lapse is the one area where 4K is passé? It's a video built from a series of stills. Any camera capable of 4K stills can make 4K time lapses (assembled on a computer being the caveat).


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## ahsanford (Jan 5, 2016)

scyrene said:


> lw said:
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> > ahsanford said:
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4K is the new HD. I'm half-surprised a 4K-branded tripod and shutter-release didn't accompany this announcement. 

- A


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## scyrene (Jan 5, 2016)

Sounds awesome, and a good price too. I'm very curious to see the extended high ISO on this and the D5. Should be a good year for DSLRs all round!


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## bholliman (Jan 5, 2016)

RickWagoner said:


> bholliman said:
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> 
> > RickWagoner said:
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No doubt the D500 will be a step up from the 7D2, it should be, its 16 months newer. 

Not sure a buffer depth of 24 vs. 79 shots would make a huge difference to me. Sure its better, just can't recall needing to fire that many shots without a pause. I'm sure it will be really important to some photographers.

I really don't care about a tilt screen. I would only use that for low angle landscapes, and this isn't a landscape camera.

I'm excited to see the D500 reviews. Raises the bar which is good for all consumers. 

My point on the price is I think the 7D2 will still sell well at a significant discount to the D500. Not everybody can or wants to spend $2k on a camera.


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## expatinasia (Jan 6, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > I am amazed by the D500 announcement. I bet potential buyers of the 5D Mark IV are all crossing their fingers that it will compete with that. Some amazing features for a camera that on launch has a US$ 1,999 RRP.
> ...



Apples and oranges how? I see a lot of people comparing the D500 to the 7D2 - presumably because of the high fps both have - but in my eyes the D500 has some amazing specs that even 5D Mark IV users will probably want (and hopefully not envy). The D500 is basically a small version of their now flagship 5D, and at a very attractive price. For me that makes the D500 Nikon's Indiana Jones option.


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## tr573 (Jan 6, 2016)

bholliman said:


> RickWagoner said:
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> 
> > bholliman said:
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If you're only getting 24 shots on a 7D2 you need a modern memory card. You get like 45 with a 1066x CF. Far cry from 79, but also a far cry from 24


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## DR. High ISO (Jan 6, 2016)

I smell fear, and it smells goood...


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## ahsanford (Jan 6, 2016)

expatinasia said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > expatinasia said:
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Sensor. Price Point. Burst Rate. Lens Compatibility.

The D500 is a top-deck crop rig with high burst rate, large buffer and compatibility with Nikon's DX (EF-S) lenses for about $2k. *I effectively just described a 7D2.* Now the D500 outclasses on the spec sheet in many regards (4K, AF points, bluetooth, buffer size, etc.)

The 5D3, in comparison was a $3500 do-everything pro rig, only compatible with EF glass, etc. That lined up with a D800 at launch and is more in line with a D750 now.

Now, _which rig can you do more with? _ Different question. _That_ very well may straddle the crop / FF divide.

- A


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## expatinasia (Jan 6, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Sensor. Price Point. Burst Rate. Lens Compatibility.
> 
> The D500 is a top-deck crop rig with high burst rate, large buffer and compatibility with Nikon's DX (EF-S) lenses for about $2k. *I effectively just described a 7D2.* Now the D500 outclasses on the spec sheet in many regards (4K, AF points, bluetooth, bufer size, etc.)
> 
> ...



Yes, I see your point. I just wonder whether the boxes we traditionally put all these different bodies into is being eroded rather rapidly.

If Canon had announced the 5D Mark IV with these exact specs (but full frame rather than crop) even added US$ 1,000 to the price because of that fact then I think there would be an awful lot of very happy Canonites around today. Sure the 5D user has not traditionally wanted/needed so many FPS, but it's nice to know they are there if you ever do need them.


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## Woody (Jan 6, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> The D500 is a top-deck crop rig with high burst rate, large buffer and compatibility with Nikon's DX (EF-S) lenses for about $2k. *I effectively just described a 7D2.* Now the D500 outclasses on the spec sheet in many regards (4K, AF points, bluetooth, bufer size, etc.)



To me, 4k, AF points, bluetooth and buffer size are all expected given the time lag between the 7D2 and D500 releases.

What's important to me: high/low ISO capability and on-sensor AF speed/accuracy/sensitivity. That's where I feel Canon really really needs to step up to the challenge.


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## Khufu (Jan 6, 2016)

So, who's excited about this upcoming 80D announcement?...

Having said that, if it's closer to resolving a usable 30mp than 18mp it might yet have a place in the world, right?! Maybe.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 6, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> The D500, though impressive, is a 7D2 killer.



Yes, in the same way that the 2016 Lexus ES is a 2014 Toyota Camry killer. I wonder which sells more?


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## TeT (Jan 6, 2016)

It matters not to Canon what the D5 & D500 spec out to when they show up... The 7DII, 5DIV & 1DXII(?) probably 6DII & 80D also are basically in the books and ready or almost ready to go... If Nikon one upped them, it will be 2 more years of whining about Canon lagging behind. If Canon comes out on top then Nikon will have a replacement thrown together and released in 6 months (complete with bugs and defects)...


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## Chaitanya (Jan 6, 2016)

Nikon has seriously blown 7D mark II out of water. It also had backlit buttons and hell of lot of wireless connectivity. I hope the idiots at Canon wake up to the new release of D5 and D500 when releasing this years cameras: 1Dx mk II, 5D mk IV, 6D mk II and 80D. Also if this years cameras don't come with 4k it will be serious disappointment from marketing point of view. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzYm_z5ipug


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 6, 2016)

Chaitanya said:


> Nikon has seriously blown 7D mark II out of water. It also had backlit buttons and hell of lot of wireless connectivity. I hope the idiots at Canon wake up to the new release of D5 and D500



Yep, on buffer depth and probably low ISO DR. And price, with the D500 at nearly double the cost of a 7DII. And it only took Nikon 4-6 years to come up with competitive cameras. And their lenses still come in second. I bet you think Canon is *******, right? :


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## Chaitanya (Jan 6, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Chaitanya said:
> 
> 
> > Nikon has seriously blown 7D mark II out of water. It also had backlit buttons and hell of lot of wireless connectivity. I hope the idiots at Canon wake up to the new release of D5 and D500
> ...



D500 is 2000$ body only whereas 7D mk ii(after discounts though msrp is still 1800$) is selling for 1500$. So it doesnt cost twice as much but rather only 1.33333333333333...times more. In 2016 if canon doesnt keep up with competion they be digging their own grave. Just look at what happened to Kodak, there is no such thing as too big to fail in competitive world.


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## ahsanford (Jan 6, 2016)

dilbert said:


> The 1.3x crop mode is interesting because it is really a BIF/wildlife type feature (don't know about sports) where the subject is already small in the image, so there isn't any desire or need to capture "lots of blue", etc.



The 'crop of a crop' strikes me as more marketing sneakiness / 'reach appeal' for those who want to say they can nail a > 1000mm FL shot without a teleconverter.

But the more I've thought about it, you can do the same damn thing by cropping in post on a 7D2. So I think the added 1.3x on top of the 1.5x crop effect is more a shrug "okay, sure" than a wow factor item.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jan 6, 2016)

Chaitanya said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Chaitanya said:
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I hear where Neuro's coming from: the 7D2 was about $1800 at launch (with no discernible top-end APS-C competition) and it has since come down quite a bit. $2k is a big ask, but I think Nikon birders will snap that up in a heartbeat. Instantly. Sold.

But I think the real 6-12 months from now price of this rig -- after the reach-obsessed have been unburdened of their coin and Nikon tries to sell this to gen pop (John Soccerdad, Emily Hiker, etc.) -- is probably in a $1600 price point. Call me crazy, but 4K against no 4K on the other side of the aisle with Canon might allow Nikon to tent the price up for a bit longer than the 7D2.

I still think both rigs are bargains. That's a crapload of functionality for the dollar.

- A


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## Sabaki (Jan 6, 2016)

I did intensive reading following the announcement and launch of the 7Dii and whilst everybody agreed it was and still is a great body, there were some reservations regarding the 'evolution' from the 7D classic and not the 'revolution' towards a true next gen performer.

The one that sticks to mind is that the sensor offered 2/3 stop improvement over the 7D classic, which many considered to be slightly disappointing.

Nikon has just answered that call, haven't they?

I am once again reminded of Sega when I think of Canon. Sega made brilliant games but their consoles weren't as good as the competition. Canon make superb lenses and their RT flash system is incredible, yet their bodies always seem short on features compared to the competition.

Let's hope they get the 1DXii right and start throwing huge money into the R&D of their bodies, it's time to take a giant leap forward.

P.S. The above is written in context of what Nikon have just announced and isn't a statement indicating that all Canon bodies are useless and incapable of taking decent pics etc because they really are. I would just like Canon to answer the call


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## expatinasia (Jan 6, 2016)

Sabaki said:


> I am once again reminded of Sega when I think of Canon. Sega made brilliant games but their consoles weren't as good as the competition. Canon make superb lenses and their RT flash system is incredible, yet their bodies always seem short on features compared to the competition.



I do find the D500 announcement to be absolutely amazing, but of course the 1D X has long been the top camera for sports, and while the D5 has some nice features, everyone expects Canon to make the 1D X even better.

I am not sure how I would feel about the D5 today, if I was a Nikon user.

They have done such a great job (at least specs wise) on the D500, that I cannot help but wonder whether it will eat in to some of the traditional D5 market which at launch will cost over three times as much. That's a lot, and could be even greater when the D500 starts to come down a little, which it may do faster than the D5.

Nikon do not need to worry about eating into their video products so can offer a lot in that area too.

I think everyone believes that the 1D X II will retain its title as top sports camera, but how the D500 affects the market is anyone's guess.

Exciting times ahead for us all in the photography world.


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## expatinasia (Jan 6, 2016)

dilbert said:


> expatinasia said:
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> > ...
> ...



True, though that could really cost them in the long term - especially if they start to develop better glass for the D500 range (DX I think).

Most sports photographers know that Canon has the glass and the edge when it comes to the top of the range sports camera.

I am not sure how I would feel if I was a Nikon D4 or D4S owner today, and I do not know (or care) what has been happening with the prices of those bodies. But the D500 really surprised me specs wise. All good!


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 6, 2016)

It sounds like a nice camera. I wonder if Nikon ever fixed the live view and tethering that was a joke on the D300s, and the D800.

I've learned never to judge a camera by the spec sheet or the hype. Somehow they always seem to forget to mention the gotchas.

The auto AFMA (Fine Tune in Nikon Speak) might be a nice feature if it works out well.

I could live without QXD cards though.


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## Larsskv (Jan 6, 2016)

Speaking of the impressive buffer on the D500, has anyone here filled the 7DII buffer when in real use (not for testing purposes). I now I haven't. 

Can anyone give me an example of a situation where one would need a 79 pic buffer? It's very cool and earns the bragging rights, but apart from that?

Futher, does the Nikons have a joystick for choosing AF points, and lever for changing focusing groups? To me, those controls are brilliant, and more of a selling point than 4K.


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## crisotunity (Jan 6, 2016)

We're all Canon users here and I've all sunk quite a bit of cash in their gear over time (5D mkIII, 200f2.8, 100mm IS macro, 200 f2.8), but right now I hope they have a cunning plan or it's curtains as a consumer company. 
The mirrorless pack are taking their family/street/casual lunch money. Pocket cameras are dead and buried (which makes it even more depressing when you see Canon just keeping on churning them out). Wedding/event pros are moving towards Sony. If Canon cannot maintain their position with wildlife and sports shooters, they really have no consumer business left and they might as well just do broadcasting/movie cameras and top of the line cinema lenses.

In terms of price: the 7D mkII is around £1,200; even if Nikon charge £1,600 for the D500 for the first 6-12 months, I cannot see why anyone would pick the 7DmkII.
As for lenses: if you cannot find a suitable Nikon lens for your job or hobby, you're not trying hard enough.

I'm not jumping ship yet but, as I'm getting older, I'll be looking forward to 8K cameras, universal shutter and light-weight lenses from the m43 side of things.


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## lycan (Jan 6, 2016)

-4EV central point AF sensitivity! Can it focus a bird flying at night?


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## xps (Jan 6, 2016)

My grandson wrote, that they were able to talk to an professional wl-photographer, who was testing the D500 in the wild. And he was quite impressed. He shot with the 7D MKII too, but the D500 is an class of its own. (Bias: My grandson works for Sony. And Sony likes Nikon more than Canon, as they sell a lot of electronics to them).

The very low light capable AF seems to be able to track fast moving animals accuratly, despite not all AF points are crosstype. The AF, when using liveview is fast and accurate, able to type on the stellar display to switch focus without turning the wheels. 
The high bufferrate is fine for fast moving animals, the plus of about 10 seconds if you shoot Raws lossless compressed at full speed shots is a great thing. Raws Lossless compressed with 14-bit 200 shots, Raws Uncompressed with 14-bit 79 shot.
The cam seems to be able to calibrate the AF by himself (I think this meens micro adjustment). The IQ is much better than the D300, especially, when shooting in dawn (much better DR than 7DII). Automatic download to your laptop included.

:'( I would like too see an update from Canon too (I know that this will happen in some years, but if you read this, a biiiiig part of my remaining brain is getting in GAS fever  )


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## 9VIII (Jan 6, 2016)

Well it only took seven years, but finally Nikon has a 7D competitor.
Bravo.

That spec list is impressive, it sounds like they actually took almost every common complaint about the D7100/D7200 and fixed it. It's probably safe to say that this is going to be the best crop body on the market for a while.
And now that we have a flippy screen on a sports and wildlife body, hopefully Canon will give us the same.


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## geonix (Jan 6, 2016)

Nice Camera probably. But it doesn't make the 7D2 worse. Actually quite normal and to be expected that a camera announced Jan 2016 has better specs than a camera annouced Sep. 2014.
(Only Canon makes cameras that have the same or less-advanced specs than competitor cameras from 2 years ago  e.g. G5X- rx100 III)

The fact that the annoucements of the top-crop bodies from Canon and Nikon are not aligned as they are with top ff bodies is somehow unusual/inconvenient. Nikon did not respond to the 7D2 until now and Canon most probably will also wait another 1-2 years from now to present the 7D2 successor.


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## geonix (Jan 6, 2016)

dilbert said:


> There was an awful big gap between 7D and 7D2 - what if building a successor to the 7D2 were to take 4-6 years and it wouldn't be seen until 2018 at the earliest?



That there was a long gap between the 7D and the 7D2 has nothing to say how long it will take Canon to come up with the 7D2 successor. If they really want to, they can be much faster than 4-6 years. Question is if Canon actually feels the need to do so. Maybe the 7D2 successor will be mirrorless, who knows. 
Actually in terms af speed and resolution the 7D2 is still as good as the D500. Just the 4k video, the connectivety and the swivel touch screen makes the D500 stand apart. If the af is really significantly better will have to be tested.


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## jeffa4444 (Jan 6, 2016)

crisotunity said:


> We're all Canon users here and I've all sunk quite a bit of cash in their gear over time (5D mkIII, 200f2.8, 100mm IS macro, 200 f2.8), but right now I hope they have a cunning plan or it's curtains as a consumer company.
> The mirrorless pack are taking their family/street/casual lunch money. Pocket cameras are dead and buried (which makes it even more depressing when you see Canon just keeping on churning them out). Wedding/event pros are moving towards Sony. If Canon cannot maintain their position with wildlife and sports shooters, they really have no consumer business left and they might as well just do broadcasting/movie cameras and top of the line cinema lenses.
> 
> In terms of price: the 7D mkII is around £1,200; even if Nikon charge £1,600 for the D500 for the first 6-12 months, I cannot see why anyone would pick the 7DmkII.
> ...


Canon dont hold any significant ground in Cinema that still rests camera wise with Arri, Red & Sony in that order. As for lenses the Cinema has multiple choices with Zeiss, Cooke, Panavision, Leica, Schneider, Angenieux etc. well ahead of Canon or Fuji.


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## lw (Jan 6, 2016)

dilbert said:


> There was an awful big gap between 7D and 7D2 - what if building a successor to the 7D2 were to take 4-6 years and it wouldn't be seen until 2018 at the earliest?



It is quite possible that some of the features that Canon adds to its cameras to 'catch up' with the D500 might be first seen in the 80D rather than waiting for the 7D3.

In the same way that the 70D introduced some new features - notably the dual-pixel sensor - before they were applied to the 7D2.

The 80D may for example inherit the 7D2's AF, timelapse, anti-flicker, improve the buffer and fps compared to the 70D, support wi-fi and nfc, up the sensor to 28mp, and add 4K...

That may more than satisfy some users, even if it isn't as 'professional' as the 7Dx bodies


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## jeffa4444 (Jan 6, 2016)

Maybe it was me but I was always unimpressed with the images I got most of the time from my Canon 7D they were virtually identical to those from the 550D. 
Ive been very happy with the 6D and more recently the 5DS but as we know there full-frame. 

If Nikon can produce images from the D500 that look broadly similar to full-frame cameras as the test shots elude too and the spec sheet details hold-up then the 7D MKII has a real battle on its hands and Canon will be forced to respond quicker than the 5 year life-span the original 7D had. 

Im fully committed to Canon given the investment Ive made in their equipment, but for those moving up from iPhones, point & shoot or basic DSLRs I can see Canon losing ground to both Sony & Nikon in the longer term unless they play in the sand-box with some pretty cool new tech of their own in 2016.


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## geonix (Jan 6, 2016)

lw said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > There was an awful big gap between 7D and 7D2 - what if building a successor to the 7D2 were to take 4-6 years and it wouldn't be seen until 2018 at the earliest?
> ...



I wish you will be right on the 80D. But I doubt it, especially 4k. I still hope though that eventaully canon ralizes that 4k is not a super-exclusive pro video funciton but rather a new standard of resolution.


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## lw (Jan 6, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> Maybe it was me but I was always unimpressed with the images I got most of the time from my Canon 7D they were virtually identical to those from the 550D.



Because basically they shared the same sensor.
For the same reason the 7D2 images are virtually identical to the 70D.

It is the other functions like FPS and pro-quality build that differentiate the cameras, not the PQ.

It will be fascinating to compare the D500 and 7D2 images in detail and see if for example the D500 can come closer to the 6D's IQ than the 7D2 (all 20mp cameras). That would be a real achievement.


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## Proscribo (Jan 6, 2016)

geonix said:


> lw said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...


It would be ridiculous if 80D got all that. 4K, more resolution, somewhat improved AF system propably yes. It's still the D7XXX-line that XXD competes with, not D500.


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## lw (Jan 6, 2016)

Proscribo said:


> It would be ridiculous if 80D got all that. 4K, more resolution, somewhat improved AF system propably yes. It's still the D7XXX-line that XXD competes with, not D500.



But the point is that the 70D did leapfrog the 7D in some features - noticeably a much better sensor with higher resolution and dual-pixel.

Why shouldn't the 80D now leapfrog the 7D2 again and introduce yet another advance in sensors? e.g. A 24 or 28mp, 4K capable, BSI sensor?

That Canon were willing to introduce a totally new sensor category - dual pixel - first on the 70D and not on a 7Dx, suggests to me they may be more than willing to do it again with the 80D.


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## Proscribo (Jan 6, 2016)

lw said:


> Proscribo said:
> 
> 
> > It would be ridiculous if 80D got all that. 4K, more resolution, somewhat improved AF system propably yes. It's still the D7XXX-line that XXD competes with, not D500.
> ...


I think you forgot that before 7D there was 50D and after 7D they released 60D that did not leapfrog 7D in any single way. Now there was 70D before 7DII and after 7DII there'll probably be 80D that will not be better than 7DII, you'll have to wait until 90D (or whatever it'll be called).

But since things change 80D could get better DR and more mp, along with 4K as video-af is something that Canon seems to like talk about with DPAF. But not much else as suggested.

Edit: anti-flicker seems to be one feature that all future Canons will have.


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## geonix (Jan 6, 2016)

lw said:


> Why shouldn't the 80D now leapfrog the 7D2 again and introduce yet another advance in sensors? e.g. A 24 or 28mp, 4K capable, BSI sensor?
> 
> That Canon were willing to introduce a totally new sensor category - dual pixel - first on the 70D and not on a 7Dx, suggests to me they may be more than willing to do it again with the 80D.



4k capable !? Well capable of 4k are the sensors from canon for quite a long time now. I bet the 80D will have no 4k. Canon just released this vixi camcorder, again without 4k. 
As I said before, it really seems that Canon thinks 4k is only needed and wanted by pro videographers and not that 4k is just a resolution standard.


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## Don Haines (Jan 6, 2016)

dilbert said:


> lw said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


Because every new model has improvements over those that came before.......

If it was true that you could not update a new model to have a feature that was better than a higher end model, then all new features would be introduced on the 1DX series and it would be updated far more often than all the other models......


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## crisotunity (Jan 6, 2016)

> 4k capable !? Well capable of 4k are the sensors from canon for quite a long time now. I bet the 80D will have no 4k. Canon just released this vixi camcorder, again without 4k.
> As I said before, it really seems that Canon thinks 4k is only needed and wanted by pro videographers and not that 4k is just a resolution standard.



That's the scary thing: Canon is treating commodified features as "pro" luxury/fantasy items. It's not a healthy state of affairs. And just to be clear: this is not about how many bells and whistles you can fit into a box. It's about thinking how you can help photographers of all skills, levels and ages take better photos so that you can stay ahead of the competition!
The 4k burst photo and post-focus features will actually make a difference in how casual photographers shoot and can be found in a £400 camera like the G7: very important for new parents who want to capture their toddlers; and for younger kids just getting into wildlife photography and macro. It's the one I'll be buying for my nephews this spring. 
I can get a 2nd hand OM10 for £250 with a very, very decent in body stabilisation which will bring all sorts of cheaper non-stabilised lenses into play for people like me who are getting on the other side of the hill and whose hands are not rock-steady any longer.


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## lw (Jan 6, 2016)

crisotunity said:


> That's the scary thing: Canon is treating commodified features as "pro" luxury/fantasy items. It's not a healthy state of affairs. And just to be clear: this is not about how many bells and whistles you can fit into a box. It's about thinking how you can help photographers of all skills, levels and ages take better photos so that you can stay ahead of the competition!
> The 4k burst photo and post-focus features will actually make a difference in how casual photographers shoot and can be found in a £400 camera like the G7: very important for new parents who want to capture their toddlers; and for younger kids just getting into wildlife photography and macro. It's the one I'll be buying for my nephews this spring.



I guess there are two camps.
For one camp, bigger sensors = better IQ, and as such cameras such as a M43 are shunned, no matter what other features they have.
For the other camp, the ability to capture the moment is more important, and so cameras without 4k burst, post-focus, etc are shunned, no matter what size sensor they have...

Hopefully Canon in its next generation of cameras can combine both worlds... but how long are users willing to wait.


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## lw (Jan 6, 2016)

An interesting - though no doubt slightly biased - insight
http://www.ishootshows.com/2016/01/05/shooting-impressions-on-assignment-with-the-nikon-d500-and-sb-5000/

Note
_As a music photographer, I live and die at high ISO. My job starts when the lights go down, and I rarely shoot below ISO 3200 for my live music photography. So this statement is not something I make lightly: The high ISO performance of the D500 blew me away.

Not only does this camera have an astounding native range – ISO 100 to 51200 — but the quality in this range is just tremendous. *What Nikon has done is basically made a DX sensor that shoots in the dark like a full-frame sensor. That’s how good the high ISO image quality is*._


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## RickWagoner (Jan 6, 2016)

dilbert said:


> lw said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



you're so correct! When the 70D came out all the old timer 7d owners were so butthurt they thrash talked it to no end. Sadly when the 7d2 came out it was just a beefed up 70D on speed with less modern features like touch,tilt screen or wifi at almost double the price. It is not a completely crazy idea to think the 80D will step with much greater feature set than the older 7d2...but it is a guarantee the "Professional" or people who think they need a professional build 7d2 will thrash talk the 80D also...then start dreaming about the 7D3..like what happened before.


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## ahsanford (Jan 6, 2016)

Larsskv said:


> Speaking of the impressive buffer on the D500, has anyone here filled the 7DII buffer when in real use (not for testing purposes). I now I haven't.



Outperforming the 7D2 is not the issue. A 200 shot buffer is Nikon simply _taking buffer off the table for reasons not to use this rig_. That 'problem' is now solved for action shooters.

It does beg the question, however: *if you can actually handle that much data, why stop at 20 MP or 10 fps? *Surely, one of those two numbers could be higher if you can move that much data. This camera would sell a lot better at 30 MP x 10 fps x 130 shot buffer or 20 MP x 14 fps x 130 shot buffer.

My math's probably off, but you catch my drift. 

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 6, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> It does beg the question, however: *if you can actually handle that much data, why stop at 20 MP or 10 fps? *Surely, one of those two numbers could be higher if you can move that much data. This camera would sell a lot better at 30 MP x 10 fps x 130 shot buffer or 20 MP x 14 fps x 130 shot buffer.



The fps limitation is hardware - the mirror movements. Sure, it could be engineered to be faster (there are 12 fps FF bodies, and probably that number will go higher with the 1D X II), but at what cost?


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## Don Haines (Jan 6, 2016)

RickWagoner said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > lw said:
> ...


Probably true for many people....

Myself, I had a 7D at work and a 60D at home. The 60D was getting a bit long in the tooth and was starting to show it's age.... and the 70D came out. Superior in all ways to the 60D! I waited for the 7D2 and got it, mostly because of the superior AF system, but there were several features on the 70D that I really wish the 7D2 had. I fully expect the 80D to be (mostly) superior to the 7D2, except for the AF system, speed, and build.... but being as those were the reasons I picked the 7D2 over the 70D, I will probably stick with the 7D2.... and probably until the 7D4 comes out because it is a nice camera and does what I bought it for....

That said, I half expect the XXD line and the 7D line to merge..... there really isn't that significant of a difference between them... it's a question of getting some features and missing others. I think they would do better with just one model of high end crop that had all the features.

As things stand now, I expect that my next camera will be a 6D2. I find the ISO advances in the D500 to be astounding and hope that Canon is up to the challenge..... but that said, when I started shooting digital, ISO400 was as high as it went  I find everything out there now to be astounding in comparison......


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## Larsskv (Jan 6, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Larsskv said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking of the impressive buffer on the D500, has anyone here filled the 7DII buffer when in real use (not for testing purposes). I now I haven't.
> ...



I don't disagree. My point is essentially that the buffer already is "off the table" with the 7DII. 

I would be surprised if the Nikon has that performance with the SD card.


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## Sporgon (Jan 6, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Come on Don, admit it. The reason you got a 7DII was because you needed a camera that was fur sealed


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## Don Haines (Jan 6, 2016)

Sporgon said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Myself, I had a 7D at work and a 60D at home. The 60D was getting a bit long in the tooth and was starting to show it's age.... and the 70D came out. Superior in all ways to the 60D! I waited for the 7D2 and got it, mostly because of the superior AF system, but there were several features on the 70D that I really wish the 7D2 had. I fully expect the 80D to be (mostly) superior to the 7D2, except for the AF system, speed, and build.... but being as those were the reasons I picked the 7D2 over the 70D, I will probably stick with the 7D2.... and probably until the 7D4 comes out because it is a nice camera and does what I bought it for....
> ...


The sealing was a huge part of the reason..... it sees lots of rain, cold weather, and cat hair


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## Tugela (Jan 6, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > It does beg the question, however: *if you can actually handle that much data, why stop at 20 MP or 10 fps? *Surely, one of those two numbers could be higher if you can move that much data. This camera would sell a lot better at 30 MP x 10 fps x 130 shot buffer or 20 MP x 14 fps x 130 shot buffer.
> ...



High fps bottlenecks are usually due to computational/data handling limitations. You can get higher frame rates than that, but typically at the expense of parameters like bit depth.

Wouldn't the mirror stay up when the camera is used in burst mode?


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## ahsanford (Jan 6, 2016)

Tugela said:


> Wouldn't the mirror stay up when the camera is used in burst mode?



I thought that was a Nikon parlor trick to squeeze +2 fps out of a mirror assembly that couldn't handle it.

Most SLR burst rates are true one flip per exposure, aren't they? The 7D2 mirror cycles at 10 fps, doesn't it?

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 6, 2016)

Tugela said:


> Wouldn't the mirror stay up when the camera is used in burst mode?



That might work as long as your subject isn't moving. Usually the subjects that benefit from high fps bursts move...often fast. 




ahsanford said:


> I thought that was a Nikon parlor trick to squeeze +2 fps out of a mirror assembly that couldn't handle it.
> 
> Most SLR burst rates are true one flip per exposure, aren't they? The 7D2 mirror cycles at 10 fps, doesn't it?



Canon uses that 'parlor trick' to achieve 14 fps on the 1D X. But they don't list the spec as 14 fps, they list it as 12 fps which is achieved with mirror flipping and AF between each shot (but has a few other requirements like a fast enough shutter speed, not stopping down too much, and not too high an ISO setting).


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## Don Haines (Jan 6, 2016)

Tugela said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...


My P/S camera will do bursts at 120fps...... and it has considerably less computing power than a 7D2 or 1DX
<EDIT> I was wrong, it only does a 100 shot burst at 60FPS </EDIT>

The mirror on DSLRs is the big restriction on FPS....... processing power really does not come into play here, the buffer depth and memory card speed are far more important


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2016)

crisotunity said:


> As for lenses: if you cannot find a suitable Nikon lens for your job or hobby, you're not trying hard enough.



I regularly use my Canon TS-E 17mm and my Canon MP-E 65mm. Can you help me to find a suitable Nikon ultrawide PC-E lens and a suitable Nikon 5x macro lens for my hobby? I guess I'm just not trying hard enough. :


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## blb529 (Jan 7, 2016)

Imagine that you shoot high school sports with a 7D and would really like better high ISO performance as you have to shoot the second half of most lacrosse, soccer, and football games at 6400 in order to keep the shutter speed up. Consider the option of, perhaps in 6 months or so, upgrading to the mark II. Then consider the option of switching brands and upgrading to the d500 (not too horrible as you only have one real lens). Now, add in your thoughts about how low the 5d mark III might drop once the IV is announced and your thoughts about it as an upgrade to the 7d. What would you do?


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## scyrene (Jan 7, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> crisotunity said:
> 
> 
> > As for lenses: if you cannot find a suitable Nikon lens for your job or hobby, you're not trying hard enough.
> ...



I love the MP-E and use it a lot. I guess, in seriousness, Nikon users would rig up something with one of their (said to be) excellent microscope objectives, which can produce similar results.


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## crisotunity (Jan 7, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> crisotunity said:
> 
> 
> > As for lenses: if you cannot find a suitable Nikon lens for your job or hobby, you're not trying hard enough.
> ...



Wow! This is some acutely specialised shooting!
Could you use Nikon tilt shift lenses? Or shoot architecture with a wide lens and click on "lens correction" in post (it is after all a hobby). Why not use extensions for macro?

Basically Canon is turning itself into a niche company. Leica have been doing extremely well in this space, so maybe Canon can corner the TS, super macro, super tele-lens market. 
I am also Canon's captive (for now) as it would make very little value-for-money sense to move to Nikon. The only reason I would sell up is for less weight and, let's be honest, mirrorless are a bit poor for wildlife (for now). But things change.


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## crisotunity (Jan 7, 2016)

blb529 said:


> Imagine that you shoot high school sports with a 7D and would really like better high ISO performance as you have to shoot the second half of most lacrosse, soccer, and football games at 6400 in order to keep the shutter speed up. Consider the option of, perhaps in 6 months or so, upgrading to the mark II. Then consider the option of switching brands and upgrading to the d500 (not too horrible as you only have one real lens). Now, add in your thoughts about how low the 5d mark III might drop once the IV is announced and your thoughts about it as an upgrade to the 7d. What would you do?



I found a mint 5D mkIII with 5,500 actuations for £1,400 last year (costs £2k new). For the money I've paid, it's an awesome camera and its AF is great for sports. 6400ISO looks superb to me, as long as you don't go internet-crazy and start trying to lift shadows by +2. 
Given the number of good-quality, 2nd hand 5D mkIIIs out there right now, I would find it very difficult to pick a 7D over the 5D as the price would be too close. Of course, if you need a higher burst rate than 6fps and a deeper buffer (I can do 12-14 RAW) then the 5D is not your friend (and make sure you don't use the SD slot, or the numbers will get worse).

Of the APS-C models:
If I were in the market for a new camera system and with only one lens to sell, I would probably wait for Nikon D500 reviews before I made my decision. 
Alternatively, good-condition, used 7DmkIIs can now be found at £950. Get a 7D now, use it, enjoy it and (worst case scenario) sell it in a few months at a small loss if the D500 is as good as it looks.


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## scyrene (Jan 7, 2016)

crisotunity said:


> Basically Canon is turning itself into a niche company. Leica have been doing extremely well in this space, so maybe Canon can corner the TS, super macro, super tele-lens market.
> I am also Canon's captive (for now) as it would make very little value-for-money sense to move to Nikon. The only reason I would sell up is for less weight and, let's be honest, mirrorless are a bit poor for wildlife (for now). But things change.



Except they produce (I believe) the largest range of lenses of any company. The specialist ones and dozens of generalist offerings. So how is that niche, exactly?


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## verysimplejason (Jan 7, 2016)

dilbert said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



50mm F1.8s? They're never a kit lens. Please explain your 90%.


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## crisotunity (Jan 7, 2016)

scyrene said:


> crisotunity said:
> 
> 
> > Basically Canon is turning itself into a niche company. Leica have been doing extremely well in this space, so maybe Canon can corner the TS, super macro, super tele-lens market.
> ...



My point is that in a world of light weight and feature-rich convenience, Canon's unique selling point is a small number of super-duper specialised/expensive lenses. This is what puts a company on the course of becoming niche.

Of course, historically, ie by virtue of being in existence for so long, Canon offer a wider range of lenses.
But for a 14-year-old getting their first "proper camera" and wanting to have a go at a few types of photography without breaking the bank, or for a grant-parent or new parent: why on earth should they opt for a 760D as opposed to a Panasonic G7? Or is Canon going to try to upsell mass-market customers to a 7D mkII? This is also what puts a consumer company on the course of becoming niche.


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## scyrene (Jan 7, 2016)

dilbert said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



What relevance does that have to the discussion? The other person said they're becoming a niche producer, implying they only offer super macro, tilt shift, supertele lenses. They offer the whole range, *including* kit lenses that make up 90% of sales.


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## scyrene (Jan 7, 2016)

crisotunity said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > crisotunity said:
> ...



Well why shouldn't they? I don't know much about that Panasonic model. But the 760D seems a pretty good entry-level DSLR. And Canon's kit lenses are as good as anyone's, aren't they? Certainly the output would look good to a newbie.

As those who speak in terms of sales will remind us: the vast majority of Canon's income comes from the low-end products. So they must be selling well, and therefore the slide into niche status is not supported by evidence.


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## bdunbar79 (Jan 7, 2016)

Shut up all of you! Only low ISO DR matters and low ISO DR, despite being one little factor that not many people care about, is NOT niche. Canon is so in trouble!

;D


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2016)

scyrene said:


> I love the MP-E and use it a lot. I guess, in seriousness, Nikon users would rig up something with one of their (said to be) excellent microscope objectives, which can produce similar results.



You can't really just stick a microscope objective on a dSLR, you need intervening optics to enlarge the image circle and position the sensor at the right point in the optical path – basically, you need the microscope – and probably it's light source. Certainly it's possible to attach a dSLR to a microscope, but that's not really a field-portable setup like a dSLR + MP-E 65 + MT-24EX. 

Nikon has some good objectives for research microscopes, although their 1x and 2x objectives (which with the necessary enlargement would get you to the 4-5x mag range) aren't among the good ones. Their stereomicrocsopes (dissection/surgical scopes)?are also not stellar. I generally prefer Zeiss scopes and optics (which are actually made in Germany, unlike their camera lenses). I do have a nice Zeiss stereomicrocsope (Stemi DV4) with an eyepiece adapter for dSLRs (and mount adapters for both Canon and Nikon) – it delivers higher final mag than the MP-E lens (20-80x), but it's somewhat portable. Still not nearly as flexible as the MP-E, since the stereomicrocsope needs subjects put on the stage. Not going to get shots like this with a microscope-based solution...


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## scyrene (Jan 7, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > I love the MP-E and use it a lot. I guess, in seriousness, Nikon users would rig up something with one of their (said to be) excellent microscope objectives, which can produce similar results.
> ...



It's not as easy, I'm sure, but I know of photographers who do it. They use some sort of intervening tube setup, I'm not sure of the specifics. But there's a reason most people doing macros in the region of 2-10x (camera) magnification use the MP-E, you're right - it's a great piece of kit that works with no fuss and produces excellent results.

Can the MP-E be modified to mount on a Nikon?


----------



## tr573 (Jan 7, 2016)

scyrene said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



You'd end up shortening the MFD since an adapter from EF to F mount would basically be an extension tube. Not sure how practical that would be with the MP-E since the working distance is already so small.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Can the MP-E be modified to mount on a Nikon?



No idea, I expect not. But upon further thought a good bellows (e.g. Novoflex) can achieve magnifications in the 2-10x range on a Nikon camera with available lenses, so it can certainly be done. But the MP-E is really the best solution available (conceptually, it's really just a built-in bellows + lens combo). 

I bought my copy used for a mere $500, from a Nikon shooter who had a project he needed to produce for which he bought a Canon body and the MP-E 65mm. Good deal for me, no loss for him since he wrote the gear off as a business expense.


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## scyrene (Jan 7, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Can the MP-E be modified to mount on a Nikon?
> ...



Getting off topic a little I know, but it's one of those lenses that gets more rewarding the more you use it. And one can often tell a photograph taken with it - in a good way.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2016)

crisotunity said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > crisotunity said:
> ...



Nikon's widest PC-E (their tilt-shift equivalent) is 24mm, which isn't wide enough for me in many cases (I have the Canon TS-E 24L II in addition to the TS-E 17). I travel to Europe fairly often, lots of interesting architecture with not much room to back up. For architecture, software corrections for keystoning are less optimal from an imaging standpoint than shifting the lens. Also, proper correction in software requires very loose framing - for the shifted 17mm, getting equivalent framing in a software-corrected shot starting with a level camera would require an 11mm rectilinear lens. Oh, wait...Nikon doesn't have one of those, either – but Canon does (and the 11-24/4L is likely to be the next lens I purchase). 

Extension tubes to get into the 4-5x range would mean lots of tube and a wide lens (e.g. 100mm of tube length with a 24mm lens) – that would be a really inconvenient setup, and complicate the lighting solution needed. 



crisotunity said:


> Basically Canon is turning itself into a niche company. Leica have been doing extremely well in this space, so maybe Canon can corner the TS, super macro, super tele-lens market.





crisotunity said:


> My point is that in a world of light weight and feature-rich convenience, Canon's unique selling point is a small number of super-duper specialised/expensive lenses. This is what puts a company on the course of becoming niche.



Sorry, but that's a patently ridiculous contention. Canon's selling point is a high-quality, functional and easy to use camera system that delivers excellent images at reasonable prices. There's a reason Canon is the ILC market leader and has been so for 11 years and counting, and that reason is _not_ TS, super macro and supertele lenses.


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## crisotunity (Jan 7, 2016)

> Sorry, but that's a patently ridiculous contention. Canon's selling point is a high-quality, functional and easy to use camera system that delivers excellent images at reasonable prices. There's a reason Canon is the ILC market leader and has been so for 11 years and counting, and that reason is _not_ TS, super macro and supertele lenses.



Except there are now many other choices for all-round-excellence. Unless Canon reacts with products incorporating a clear vision (not pocket cameras/landfill-busters with f7 maximum aperture like they've done this week), they will become niche because nearly everyone else is offering better VfM, features and weight/performance ratio. 

The market is already changing and will continue to change. Perceptions will change with it. 
I can never win internet debates, so I will just leave you with a slogan from the 1980s: “No one ever got fired for buying IBM” - now, where can I buy an IBM-made ThinkPad?


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2016)

crisotunity said:


> > Sorry, but that's a patently ridiculous contention. Canon's selling point is a high-quality, functional and easy to use camera system that delivers excellent images at reasonable prices. There's a reason Canon is the ILC market leader and has been so for 11 years and counting, and that reason is _not_ TS, super macro and supertele lenses.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of the other choices you mention, only Nikon is competitive in the dSLR space. dSLRs remain a far larger market than MILCs, and Canon leads the dSLR market. Let me leave you with a statement from 6 years ago: "Mirrorless will kill the dSLR within 5 years." Or perhaps with an acronym and an emoticon:

YAPODFC. :


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## bdunbar79 (Jan 7, 2016)

Why do people continue to proclaim that "the market is changing" when it's not? I think it comes back down to basics again. Given data, people often cannot assimilate that data into reality. They have no idea what any of the data means and ultimately, utterly FAIL to make any valid predications, or coherent statements for that matter. When you see no gap narrowing between Canon and Nikon market shares, and no increase in market share from MILC, month after month after month, that says something, and only ONE thing. That's the CONSUMER speaking. 

But...I can just feel it this time!

Onto my 2nd point, to say that Canon is becoming niche is at absolutely at its best, ASSININE. All, and I mean all, of the facts and statistics available, say otherwise. So to say that is well beyond stupid.


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## bholliman (Jan 7, 2016)

crisotunity said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > crisotunity said:
> ...



Probably the main one is that the Canon EOS system is the best overall photography "system" available when you look at support (CPS), quality and breadth of the offering cameras, lenses, flash equipment, etc.


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## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2016)

blb529 said:


> Imagine that you shoot high school sports with a 7D and would really like better high ISO performance as you have to shoot the second half of most lacrosse, soccer, and football games at 6400 in order to keep the shutter speed up. Consider the option of, perhaps in 6 months or so, upgrading to the mark II. Then consider the option of switching brands and upgrading to the d500 (not too horrible as you only have one real lens). Now, add in your thoughts about how low the 5d mark III might drop once the IV is announced and your thoughts about it as an upgrade to the 7d. What would you do?



Good question. Normally, I'd say stick with Canon, but if you have no major migration costs, the field opens up for you.

If something around 10 FPS is a must, you wait for a 7D3 (going to be a while) or see how much better the D500 does in reviews. Also, it's bit of a left-field call, but I remember that Samsung NX1 was 15 fps with a formidable crop sensor if you can live with mirrorless (and if you can find a dealer -- they appear to be going out of business).

If 10 FPS is nice but strong ISO 6400 performance is a bigger need than framerate, move to FF and get a rig with a strong AF system -- a 5D3 would be perfect. It will clearly outclass any crop rig in higher ISO (including what we expect to be a strong Nikon sensor in the D500), but you'll have to live with 6 FPS. Keep in mind that getting a solid lens to get your reach back on a FF rig will be a cost consideration. 

- A


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## PhotographyFirst (Jan 7, 2016)

I've been doing photography long enough to know that announcement spec sheets and hyped "reviews" should be ignored until the production models make it into many hands. 

So many cameras have come out over the last couple of years that look like Jesus riding a velociraptor, but turn out pretty underwhelming compared to the spec sheet hype. 

What I do find interesting in this new camera though is the automated AFMA function. Strange how Nikon went through all that trouble making such a great AFMA they didn't bother to make it capable of setting focus adjustments to more than one position on the zoom range for the zoom lenses, let alone any different focus distances like can be done with Sigma lenses now. On the plus side, if you need a specific distance adjusted, the automated process might be quick enough to fine-tune out in the field.


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## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2016)

crisotunity said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > crisotunity said:
> ...



Nonsense. I'll get on the 'Canon is as niche as Toyota' bandwagon with everyone else. 

But I think (and maybe I'm doing crisotunity a favor here) you _could_ crudely re-jigger up his byzantine set-theory logic like this:

_If you don't need a really exotic piece of kit like a 5:1 macro or Ultrawide T/S lens_, you could argue there are a number companies with a basic battery of lenses that cover most pedestrian photography needs (Fuji, Canon, Nikon, Sony, and the m43 shared mount world).

Given that -- and now let's drink the Kool-aid that all those lenses are equivalent for now -- folks 'starting their photography journey' and picking their first bigger investment rig should choose innovation/features/value proposition over 'the safe/sensible choice / the big name out there'.

If you can walk the line to _that_ point, then it's a feature-based sell. Other companies have fancier sensors (SoNikon), app store tweakable functionality (Sony), 4K (seemingly everyone), tilty-slippy screens (seemingly everyone), automated AFMA (Nikon), spot metering at any AF point (Nikon), etc.

Now this horrifically drives around nontrivial things like 3rd party accessory ecosystems, ergonomics, service, reliability, etc. so I'd never drink that Kool aid, but I could see how a feature-based value proposition argument could be made.

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2016)

PhotographyFirst said:


> Strange how Nikon went through all that trouble making such a great AFMA they didn't bother to make it capable of setting focus adjustments to more than one position on the zoom range for the zoom lenses...





Well, that would pretty much render the feature a waste of time compared to Canon's current implementation.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> But I think (and maybe I'm doing crisotunity a favor here) you _could_ crudely re-jigger up his byzantine set-theory logic like this:
> 
> _If you don't need a really exotic piece of kit like a 5:1 macro or Ultrawide T/S lens_, you could argue there are a number companies with a basic battery of lenses that cover most pedestrian photography needs (Fuji, Canon, Nikon, Sony, and the m43 shared mount world).
> 
> Given that -- and now let's drink the Kool-aid that all those lenses are equivalent for now -- folks 'starting their photography journey' and picking their first bigger investment rig should choose innovation/features/value proposition over 'the safe/sensible choice / the big name out there'.



But then there's the 'my mom uses Canon, my BFF's uncle uses Canon, the pro who shot my cousin's wedding where I met my new girlfriend used Canon' argument. Popularity helps sell cameras.


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## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> PhotographyFirst said:
> 
> 
> > Strange how Nikon went through all that trouble making such a great AFMA they didn't bother to make it capable of setting focus adjustments to more than one position on the zoom range for the zoom lenses...
> ...



Or claiming the D5 shoots 4K... for three minutes at a time.

That's a like a superpower that sucks. Like being able to fly... but only if it's to fly into the office to work.

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Or claiming the D5 shoots 4K... for three minutes at a time.



Hey, there's an idea. Canon could relaunch the 50D based on the claim that with ML it can shoot a few seconds of 1080p.


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## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:
 

> But then there's the 'my mom uses Canon, my BFF's uncle uses Canon, the pro who shot my cousin's wedding where I met my new girlfriend used Canon' argument. Popularity helps sell cameras.



A couple years back, I tried to flow-chart out what camera folks should buy because I got asked so much:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/21685244693/in/datetaken/

I'm embarrassed to show it to proper photographers, especially such a knowledgeable quorum here at CR. But at face value, it's a wretched exercise to try to create an expert system for camera-buying advice. It disregards budget, if your buddy/relative owns lenses you can use, leaves out crucially specific considerations (like the sports shooter on this thread who needs ISO 6400) and doesn't remotely dip it's toes into video, flashes, etc.

- A


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## jrista (Jan 7, 2016)

This could totally be my entry into the Nikon world. This, paired with a 150-600, would make for a pretty darn nice lighter weight birding rig than my 5D III with the 600mm. I will still end up with a 5D IV and will still use the 600mm, but I don't really like to travel with that setup much...just too much risk with too much money. A D500 w/ 150-600 would just be a great backup rig, or just for those days when I don't want to go out lugging around a heavy setup. 

Really looking forward to this.


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## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2016)

jrista said:


> This could totally be my entry into the Nikon world. This, paired with a 150-600, would make for a pretty darn nice lighter weight birding rig than my 5D III with the 600mm. I will still end up with a 5D IV and will still use the 600mm, but I don't really like to travel with that setup much...just too much risk with too much money. A D500 w/ 150-600 would just be a great backup rig, or just for those days when I don't want to go out lugging around a heavy setup.
> 
> Really looking forward to this.



Unless you really think:


You expect the D500's SoNikon sensor to absolutely dust the 7D2 sensor at birding ISO
You need a bigger buffer than your 7D2
You really need 4K video
You really want -4 EV center point AF
Automated AFMA might be a game-changer

...why not just get a 7D2 (if you don't already own one) and stay entirely in-family? Same ergonomics, same AF setup, you could use that 150-600 on your 5D3 (or future EF rigs), etc.

You certainly know what you are doing, jrista, but what's the killer app on the other side of the fence that has you fired up? Just curious.

- A


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## jrista (Jan 7, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > This could totally be my entry into the Nikon world. This, paired with a 150-600, would make for a pretty darn nice lighter weight birding rig than my 5D III with the 600mm. I will still end up with a 5D IV and will still use the 600mm, but I don't really like to travel with that setup much...just too much risk with too much money. A D500 w/ 150-600 would just be a great backup rig, or just for those days when I don't want to go out lugging around a heavy setup.
> ...



I'm not a big fan of Canon these days. I stick with them for what they are good at, but other brands often offer so much more, for so much less. I have stated many times that I've been quite impressed by the Samsung NX1...still am. Rather sad Samsung seems to be shutting that camera down in Europe...and really hoping that trend isn't going to expand to the whole globe. I think Samsung has some truly impressive technology in that little camera. 

I have also been immensely impressed by the ultra cheap A6000. I used a friends for a good while last year, and was waiting for Sony to release the A6100. That didn't happen last year, the camera was delayed, however it seems it's been rescheduled for March this year. The A6100 is at the top of my list for my next camera, and it would be the first one I buy, before a D500 even. I love the Canon EF 600mm f/4 L II lens. Best lens in the world, IMO. It's phenomenal. I am not happy with the IQ of the 5D III in general...it's decent enough, but I just want more. I am hoping the 5D IV shines more than the 5D III did (I'm not expecting world-shattering DR...I just don't want the high dark current and scratchy noise...and I spend a LOT of time digging around in various camera raw files, so I know exactly what I'm looking for.) 

The A6000 is just impressive. It's small. It's ridiculously fast (11fps). It's got excellent IQ. It's mirrorless, so it can be adapted to pretty much any lens. The biggest drawback is adapted lenses don't focus that fast...however the A6100 should be fixing that as it's supposed to get Sony's new AF technology (showcased in the A7r II). For anything where I need tripod-based reach, I'd pick the A6100 over anything else right now, and I'd happily adapt my Canon 600mm lens to it as well.

It's the handheld work with the 600 where I really want the big 5D size body. It just gives me a more reliable thing to attach to the lens and grip and balance the whole rig with. I wouldn't want to use a small mirrorless with a huge lens handheld like that. 

Anyway. Samsung NX1 and Sony A6000. I have long been very impressed by both cameras. I am also very impressed with the Sony A7r II, but it's pricy. The Sony A7 series also has a bummer of an issue with it's bulb mode that make it not particularly viable for astrophotography (it permanently enables a certain kind of spatial NR when using bulb mode that wreaks havoc on small stars...bleh. We call it the star eater.) I would much rather spend my big bucks on astrophotography gear, which is even more expensive...that makes it tough to shell out $3500-$4000 on a DSLR when you need $5000, $7000, $15000 for a piece of astrophotography equipment.


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## Larsskv (Jan 7, 2016)

dilbert said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



I've seen some indications that the 4K isn't really well implemented on the D500. It has a crop factor, which means you will have 2,2x crop factor compared to FF, making wide angle shooting impossible. Further, Nikon lacks live view focusing, and does not feature focus peaking. Buying the D500 for 4K filming doesn't seem like a good idea. 

Who needs a bigger buffer than the 7DII? It shoots 1000 jpg, and 30+ raw. I have never reached the buffer limit in raw shooting, in real world use..

The sensor might be better, but I'm not so sure it will be significant. The 7DII's sensor is in most regards competitive to the one in the D7200, and I don't expect a sensor revolution in the D500. 

For birding and light weight equiptment, I think you will have to work hard to find a match to the 7DII+100-400LII.


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## unfocused (Jan 7, 2016)

dilbert said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Let *me* put it to you like this: If you already owned an $11,000 lens would you buy a $2,000 body that requires you to use a much cheaper and admittedly less sharp lens? or would you buy a $1,400 body that has 98% of the features of the more expensive body, but that you can use with *both* the $11,000 lens and the less costly lens?


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 7, 2016)

dilbert said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Rounding out that trade is "but the 7DX is incompatible with your existing lenses."


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## Don Haines (Jan 7, 2016)

dilbert said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...


Not a very realistic question as it is probably at least 2 years until a 7D2 update.....

But there is the 80D 

The 80D will probably be superior to the 7D2 in everything but <EDIT> AF, frame rate, and </EDIT> mechanical toughness.......


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## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> But there is the 80D
> 
> The 80D will probably be superior to the 7D2 in everything but mechanical toughness.......



80D > 7D2?

Resolution? Yes.

DR? Possibly.

High ISO? I'd assume yes.

Video? Certainly.

But certainly not in framerate or build quality (as you said), and I'm not convinced -- even with DPAF and touchscreen video magic -- it will be given a sports-wildlife level AF servo setup.

So if you are a birder, wildlife or sideline sports person, the 80D keepers might be pretty but I'm guessing the 7D2 will simply pull in more keepers.

- A


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## Don Haines (Jan 7, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > But there is the 80D
> ...


Sorry,

missed AF....

I would still expect superior AF and frame rate on the 7D2

I will go back and edit my previous comment


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## Otara (Jan 7, 2016)

Id wait for a review whether I recommended an upgrade from a 7D2 to the 'hypothetical 7DX' listed above, in that theres a lot of nice stuff, but it still is the diminishing returns situation we've had for years now, and its the little gotchas that can make the difference that arent in spec sheets. Id take it for free without hesitation though! 

For Nikonian wildlifers its closer to a no-brainer, my friend preordered as soon as he read the specs, and no more shall I hear his wailing about full buffers as I chug away beside him.


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## ahsanford (Jan 8, 2016)

Otara said:


> For Nikonian wildlifers its closer to a no-brainer, my friend preordered as soon as he read the specs, and no more shall I hear his wailing about full buffers as I chug away beside him.



I'll go a step further. For hobbyist Nikonians who shoot birds/wildlife, the D500 is nothing short of a hallelujah moment. Nikon birders have been stuck between a 6 fps D7200 (basically a 70D with a nice sensor but questionable AF) and biting the epic bullet to FF, likely a D750 and a very pricey lens migration.

This D500 rig is (a) tailor-made for their chosen activity and (b) keeps them in a reach-positive / budget-friendly position (more reach per dollar than FF).

Again, the overwhelming majority of birders with Nikon have to be considering pre-ordering, sight unseen / pre-reviews -- much like when the 7D2 dropped. For these folks, whether it's $2k or even $2500 is cheaper than climbing to FF and trying to get their reach back.

The question is -- where will the price stabilize _after_ those folks are relieved of their money? Say, 6 months post-release? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 7D2 (as a reflection of what might happen with the D500) is owned by birders, but it's owned by a lot more general amateur / enthusiast shooters -- the parent with a three-sport athlete of a son/daughter, the amateur shutterbug who wants to future-proof his camera purchase but can't justify all the zeros on EF lens prices, etc.

- A


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## Don Haines (Jan 8, 2016)

dilbert said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


perhaps he has decided to have many wives.....


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## ahsanford (Jan 8, 2016)

dilbert said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



That's the thing. That's why I kicked this can your way, Dilbert. Knowing you had such an investment in hand with Canon already, what item is so particularly sexy to you to warrant an experiment with another mount?

There's nothing wrong with wanting to, and I'm certainly not winding you up or trying to talk you out of it. I'm legitimately curious what on the D500 spec sheet made you say "Hmmm... That is worth dangling one foot over the edge of Conversion Canyon."

- A


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## Don Haines (Jan 8, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...


What gets me is the 5 stop increase in ISO over the 7D2....

51,200 - Max ISO on the 7D2
102,400 - What I expected from the next crop Nikon DSLR
204,800 - What I expect from a 5DIV
409,600 - What I expect from a 1DX2
819,200 - unrealistic
1,638,400 - What the D500 delivers

This is an unbelievable and unprecedented jump. It is too much to believe. I will have to see test shots to really believe it.....

If they really are 5 stops better in ISO performance, you would have to be crazy to not think real hard about jumping to Nikon, and if you were starting out, it would be even more pronounced


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## bholliman (Jan 8, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> What gets me is the 5 stop increase in ISO over the 7D2....
> 
> 51,200 - Max ISO on the 7D2
> 102,400 - What I expected from the next crop Nikon DSLR
> ...



Yeah, 1,638,400 is crazy!! Like you, I'm going to reserve judgement until I see examples and and hands on test results. Its possible Nikon is using the maximum ISO number for publicity. If their sensor/processor is really 5 stops better than the competition they have made a significant technological breakthrough.


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## bdunbar79 (Jan 8, 2016)

Canonrumorsguy posted one on Twitter. It's completely unusable, as predicted. It's awful.


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## Don Haines (Jan 8, 2016)

bholliman said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > What gets me is the 5 stop increase in ISO over the 7D2....
> ...


The thing is, take a 7D2 sensor, go to BSI fabrication so there is no circuitry blocking the light, and come up with a magic 100 percent quantum efficiency design, and you get a stop more electrons..... that's as much more signal as you are going to get.... where do they get the other 4 stops from?


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## bdunbar79 (Jan 8, 2016)

They don't because there aren't 4 more stops. As evident from the Twitter photo.


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## Orangutan (Jan 8, 2016)

bdunbar79 said:


> Canonrumorsguy posted one on Twitter. It's completely unusable, as predicted. It's awful.



Maybe Nikon is planning to take on Sony in the lucrative paparazzi market. Low light, fast shutter, big lens, quality optional.


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## expatinasia (Jan 8, 2016)

bdunbar79 said:


> Canonrumorsguy posted one on Twitter. It's completely unusable, as predicted. It's awful.



Oh I don't know, that image is sort of artistic...lol ??? ;D

I don't think I ever shoot over 10,000 on the 1DX most of the time is between 100 and 2,500 sometimes push it a little but not often.

BTW thanks for sharing, I did not know CRG was on twitter. Good to know.


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## bdunbar79 (Jan 8, 2016)

expatinasia said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Canonrumorsguy posted one on Twitter. It's completely unusable, as predicted. It's awful.
> ...



Yeah I joined Twitter a few years ago because of colleges and universities went pretty heavy on social media.


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## expatinasia (Jan 8, 2016)

bdunbar79 said:


> Yeah I joined Twitter a few years ago because of colleges and universities went pretty heavy on social media.



Yes, it is a necessary evil these days. I am not a big fan of it, but it can be useful.

It's for things like twitter that I hope Canon's new 1D X will have something similar to Nikon's SnapBridge technology. Being able to take a pic on your 1DX II and have it automatically and immediately sent to your phone as a .jpeg so you can upload to twitter and other places would be very useful to me for my work.

At the moment I have to take a separate picture with my phone, which means I have to take two pictures which is just dumb and time consuming and of course sometimes you just can't take two shots like that due to time.


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## pj1974 (Jan 8, 2016)

Here is the Nikon D500 photo at ISO 1.6M (1,638,400).
Note:
1)	It’s from this webpage http://www.chip.de/news/Nikon-D500-ausprobiert-Semiprofi-DSLR-mit-Ultra-HD-und-ISO-3.280.000_87812330.html# 
2)	The image appears to be a photo taken of a Nikon D500 screen (i.e. apparently not the image itself)

Regards

Paul


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## ahsanford (Jan 8, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> What gets me is the 5 stop increase in ISO over the 7D2....
> 
> 51,200 - Max ISO on the 7D2
> 102,400 - What I expected from the next crop Nikon DSLR
> ...



I don't disagree, the ISO limits look like an breakthrough to some. But we all know highest allowable ISO is as consistently determined by manufacturers as their weather sealing claims are.  

I'll wait for noise samples to come out and decide (like the rest of us here, I'd imagine.) 

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 8, 2016)

pj1974 said:


> Here is the Nikon D500 photo at ISO 1.6M (1,638,400).



Looks like Nikon have implemented an in-camera version of identity masking!


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## privatebydesign (Jan 8, 2016)

expatinasia said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah I joined Twitter a few years ago because of colleges and universities went pretty heavy on social media.
> ...




Or just get a WFT-E6 it has all the functionality you are looking for and much more, and has had since the 1DX came out.


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## 9VIII (Jan 8, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> What gets me is the 5 stop increase in ISO over the 7D2....
> 
> 51,200 - Max ISO on the 7D2
> 102,400 - What I expected from the next crop Nikon DSLR
> ...



http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1214161-REG/nikon_1559_d500_dslr_camera_body.html


> The sensor and processor also combine to avail a native sensitivity range up to ISO 51200



Look at the specs again, native ISO goes to 51,200. About 1.5 stops better than the 7D2.
Which sounds nice, if expected, but even then I have to wonder what tricks they're using to make gains. For the last few years it seems to me that high ISO is more about pixel size and post processing than anything else. I wouldn't be surprised to see the D500 underperform at maximum native ISO compared to the 7D2 (I'm betting it'll look more like one stop improvement instead of 1.5).
Then again the 7D2 also has DPAF getting in the way, comparisons will be interesting.

As soon as we get BSI sensors on these things, then we can be confident about seeing some big changes.
(and I say that specifically regarding crop sensors, if Sony didn't think it valuable enough to put on the A7SII then chances are no sports oriented full frame body will have it until it's standard practice)


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## expatinasia (Jan 8, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



Thanks, privatebydesign. I had looked at this a few times. Do you have personal experience with it and know how the Bluetooth on that works? I am not interested in the WiFi, I just want something similar to Nikon's SnapBridge technology (discussed here: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=28771.0 ) which allows me to pair my phone to the camera without having to log in and reconnect every time.

I will be a bit more research into the WFT-E6a although, it's is very pricey!


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## ahsanford (Jan 8, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> pj1974 said:
> 
> 
> > Here is the Nikon D500 photo at ISO 1.6M (1,638,400).
> ...



That's actually a crystal clear, noise free ISO 1.6M shot, but the D500's screen only displays captured shots washed through Nikon's favorite creative filters. That filter is called "Radioactive Failure Sauce Surprise".

I'm sure you could defeat that in the menu system... if you didn't kill yourself with a hammer trying to drill down through it. 

- A


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## Larsskv (Jan 8, 2016)

dilbert said:


> Larsskv said:
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> > ...
> ...



The 7DII has dual pixel AF and no crop actor when filming. I do believe many people would want that over the 4K offered in the D500.


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## Maximilian (Jan 8, 2016)

pj1974 said:


> Here is the Nikon D500 photo at ISO 1.6M (1,638,400).
> Note:
> 1)	It’s from this webpage http://www.chip.de/news/Nikon-D500-ausprobiert-Semiprofi-DSLR-mit-Ultra-HD-und-ISO-3.280.000_87812330.html#
> 2)	The image appears to be a photo taken of a Nikon D500 screen (i.e. apparently not the image itself)
> ...


Thanks Paul, for finding this. 
To all non German speakers here the translation of the caption below the pic in the original article. It says:
"ISO 1.6m seems to be only little feasible - but better than no pic at all." 

To me this picture shows that this feature (ISO 1.6m) is ridiculous stupid marketing cr** (sorry for cursing). 
Nikon is disgracing themselves for offering something so useless. 
I'd say: Better no pic at all than this.


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## xps (Jan 8, 2016)

Maximilian said:


> pj1974 said:
> 
> 
> > Here is the Nikon D500 photo at ISO 1.6M (1,638,400).
> ...



I do not understand, why all journalists are so keen on using the D500/D5 in the million range, as the product specialists at the CES do not underline this this high ISO sector. My grandson wrote to me, that they say, that these bodies make excellent shots in the range up to 10k and good shots up to 51k. 
He was able to see, how good the D500 works on onsite taken pictures at CES. And this is much better, than the 7DII does. The AF is wonderfully working and automatically following the subject and the burst rate is just wow. A quick overlook at the taken pictures showed an exciting number of sharp and accurate pictures.
IMO, the D500 sounds like the next step of the 7DII. But next time - in some years, Canon (maybe) will beat the D500. So the game continues. Canon fans onsite say: yes the d500 is stellar. But Canon has better lenses.... And Canon says, their sales are great, so why should someone say, their product be poor and datet?
For us customers it is the challenge to get good shots out of our gear we own.


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## xps (Jan 8, 2016)

The good thing on this release is, that rumors of successors of other brands appear. Sony, where an successor of the A99 seems to be evident (better for sports with greater AF area and more accurate and faster AF and the new Bionz-generation inside). And Nikon, who will update the D810. Rumors of course. 
Its a pity, that there are no plausible rumors of the 5DIV. Someone over there rumored, Canon will/has adjust(ed) its models on the features of the other brands. Let us see, if the features of the competitors will bring a "plus" for us Canonians


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## Maximilian (Jan 8, 2016)

xps said:


> ...
> 
> I do not understand, why all journalists are so keen on using the D500/D5 in the million rage, as the product specialists at the CES do not underline this this high ISO sector. My grandson wrote to me, that they say, that these bodies make excellent shots in the range up to 10k and good shots up to 51k.
> ...


Fully accepted, although this must be confirmed by others. 

But was it a necessary marketing movement to enable 1.6m? 
Wouldn't it have been enough to go up to 51k or any other really usable (!!!) range?


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## xps (Jan 8, 2016)

Maximilian said:


> xps said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Mr. Maximilian, its like in the car business. Nearly everyone (except the US  ) looks at the maximum speed, but just a few buyers drive the car as fast as it goes. I did not buy my Q7, because it accellerates in 6 sec to 100km/h or because I can drive more than 210km/h. I bought it, because I can drive everywhere and it is very comfortable. 

Yes, its reasonable to wait for the first reviews. The advantage is, that they will come soon, as the body will be sold in a few weeks, not like the 5DSR or the 7RII... But IMO the D500 will be better, as it has to be better than the 7DII, otherwise Nikon would have done no good job for their shareholders

Personal question: What does "the dark side - i´ve been there" stand for?


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## Maximilian (Jan 8, 2016)

xps said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > xps said:
> ...


Yeah! People want to be cheated and don't want to think for themselves. *sigh*
_Edit: And I thought it was about fuel consumption and nitrous gases_ 



> Personal question: What does "the dark side - i´ve been there" stand for?


It's kind of a joke.
When I joined the forum I quite often read that Nikon was "the dark side". 
I was using Nikon in the 90ies although my father and brothers were using Canon. 
So I've been there before 

If you leave the joke aside you could also read it as 
"I've used Nikon, I know they make also good stuff, I am no fanboy and I am open minded for arguments."
But I don't like missionaries or fanatics that try to brain wash you with their point of view.

_Edit: And I like "Star Wars" (again, no fanboy)_


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## Maximilian (Jan 8, 2016)

dilbert said:


> The 7DII's sensor resolution is 5472 × 3648 (*4:3*)


Luckily the ratio is 3:2 or 1.5:1
Otherwise we'd pay for sensor area not used


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## Maximilian (Jan 8, 2016)

dilbert said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...


And I get always annoyed watching 16:9 presentations on a 4:3 projector/screen.
And everyone not having good eyes like me needs glasses or binoculars


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## Larsskv (Jan 8, 2016)

dilbert said:


> Larsskv said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Once again I think you argue for the sake of arguing. 

A significant crop on a crop camera is a problem if you want wide angle. That isn't a real problem with APS-H. The crop for getting 1920x1080 does not come with the expense of sacrificing wide angle.


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## Don Haines (Jan 8, 2016)

xps said:


> Nearly everyone (except the US  ) looks at the maximum speed, but just a few buyers drive the car as fast as it goes. I did not buy my Q7, because it accellerates in 6 sec to 100km/h or because I can drive more than 210km/h. I bought it, because I can drive everywhere and it is very comfortable.
> 
> Yes, its reasonable to wait for the first reviews. The advantage is, that they will come soon, as the body will be sold in a few weeks, not like the 5DSR or the 7RII... But IMO the D500 will be better, as it has to be better than the 7DII, otherwise Nikon would have done no good job for their shareholders


It appears from sample images that if you drive it at iso1600000 you get a train wreck.......

BTW, I bought my car because I could put two bicycles in the back and two canoes on the roof..... Never had it close to top speed......


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 8, 2016)

dilbert said:


> > Further, Nikon lacks live view focusing, and does not feature focus peaking. Buying the D500 for 4K filming doesn't seem like a good idea.



Does anyone make focus peaking which is useful? With my A7R II I find it laughably unreliable since it's just checking for high-contrast areas. I would routinely see it highlight areas which were well out of focus (before I turned the feature off).


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## xps (Jan 8, 2016)

Maximilian said:


> xps said:
> 
> 
> > Maximilian said:
> ...


AAAH, I see ;D Die macht sei mit Dir! 

That point is true. Most of these decisions are results of an "Bauchgefühl". So, I am thinking of buying a Sony 7Rii with two Batis lenses. I tried them. The user friendliness is sometimes lacking, but its IQ is superb. So, why not? 7DII, 5DIV with my teleprimes and the 7RII for landscape, as (IMO) Canon lacks here. I like my 6D, but as I "smellt blood", the high resolution cripples in my fingers...


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## ahsanford (Jan 8, 2016)

xps said:


> The good thing on this release is, that rumors of successors of other brands appear. Sony, where an successor of the A99 seems to be evident (better for sports with greater AF area and more accurate and faster AF and the new Bionz-generation inside). And Nikon, who will update the D810. Rumors of course.
> Its a pity, that there are no plausible rumors of the 5DIV. Someone over there rumored, Canon will/has adjust(ed) its models on the features of the other brands. Let us see, if the features of the competitors will bring a "plus" for us Canonians



I'm not going anywhere -- my investment is with Canon and I'm very happy with what I have. 

But I see a VERY similar thread starting when the Nikon D820 (or D900?) drops with that Sony 42 MP BSI sensor in it. People generally only take the sensor (and possibly the adaptability of old lenses) seriously in the A7R II -- few think of the A7 platform as a ready-for-prime-time photography solution.

But I think everyone respects Nikon's ability to generate a solidly thought through SLR. So when that Sony 42 MP sensor drops in a D820/D900, it will make some serious waves. And I do _not_ see Nikon offering it as a high-res specialist rig a la the 5DS rigs -- if they can squeeze 6-7 fps out of it, they could market it as an all-battlefield product that they will sell against the 5D4 _and_ the 5DS rigs.

- A


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## xps (Jan 8, 2016)

Dpreview wrote the first hand-on:
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/4531466610/top-5-hands-on-with-nikon-d500

Maybe I am a little bit sensitive, but does Dpreview not like Canon as much as other brands? (rumored, the Dpreview review will be ready soon after the D500 is available)

And there is a new Canonrumors thread: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=28767.0
(from user pixelsouldier)

As my family member wrote to me: The IQ at high Iso is excellent, far better than the 7DII. I hope he is wrong


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## scyrene (Jan 8, 2016)

dilbert said:


> Larsskv said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Cropping the top and bottom is the same as cropping all round, is that what you're saying? And isn't all the 4K footage also widescreen ratio? Either way, one is reducing the apparent horizontal angle of view (making it less 'wide') and the other isn't.


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## RickWagoner (Jan 9, 2016)

xps said:


> As my family member wrote to me: The IQ at high Iso is excellent, far better than the 7DII. I hope he is wrong



Fact is the IQ from the sensor itself the 7D2 is nothing much more better than the 70D. It is the Noise reduction software in the 7D2 that gives you the higher iso pictures looking good but anyone can do this in post and it does reduce battery life. 

Fact is manufactures can boost MAX ISO numbers as high as they want to but it means nothing to IQ. When it comes to IQ the limits of high ISO it is more to do with the sensor size then anything else. Though as sensor manufacturing furthers so will higher quality ISO but this is very slow and little. high ISO on the 70D or 7d2 without the bull software is about 3200 imo at the highest. I am sure the D500 will better this a little at the least as it is a sensor created much later than the older 70D sensor.


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## ahsanford (Jan 10, 2016)

RickWagoner said:


> Fact is manufactures can boost MAX ISO numbers as high as they want to but it means nothing to IQ. When it comes to IQ the limits of high ISO it is more to do with the sensor size then anything else. Though as sensor manufacturing furthers so will higher quality ISO but this is very slow and little. high ISO on the 70D or 7d2 without the bull software is about 3200 imo at the highest. I am sure the D500 will better this a little at the least as it is a sensor created much later than the older 70D sensor.



According this very well thought-through essay on the D500...

http://petapixel.com/2016/01/09/i-shot-with-the-nikon-d500-here-are-my-thoughts/

ISO 12,800 is outstanding and it can climb seven stops higher. 

- A


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