# EOS M Autofocus Performance Won't Improve via Firmware [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Feb 18, 2013)

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<strong>EOS M AF performance stuck in its current form?


</strong>We’re told Canon may not be able to significantly improve the autofocus performance of the EOS M with firmware. We’ve receive contrasting stories about this, but an insider at Canon has told me they’ve been trying, but the limitation is more to do with hardware, than software. Canon did know going in that the autofocus performance was not as good as others in the industry, but didn’t think it was a deal breaker.</p>
<p><strong>Next EOS M Body</strong>


I was also told that the next EOS M body will have greatly improved autofocus performance, but that the body would cost more than the current $700ish you can get the EOS M for.</p>
<p>New STM EF-M lenses will be launched along with the new body. A new superzoom kit, as well as a higher end telephoto zoom. A fast prime could also be on the way, but may not appear with the others.</p>
<p>The bad press about the autofocus performance is probably the biggest reason the camera isn’t selling extremely well, even though Canon thinks it’s more to do with the lack of lenses available for the system. I disagree with Canon, I think a lot of people would be quite happy with an EF-M 22mm f/2 kit.</p>
<p><strong><a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/883304-REG/Canon_6609b033_EOS_M_Digital_Camera_with.html/bi/2466/kbid/3296" target="_blank">Canon EOS M w/22mm f/2 at B&H Photo for $699</a> </strong>(Save $100)</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## sambafan (Feb 18, 2013)

+1 - the negative reports on focusing system have kept me away, and I WOULD be happy with a 22mm f/2 kit. Still hoping to find a great "small shooter" to supplement my 5Dii.


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## RLPhoto (Feb 18, 2013)

No surprise here. 1st Gen product.


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## botw (Feb 18, 2013)

I'm an actual M owner and write this as someone who actually likes the camera. The AF isn't great. It is absolutely the reason it isn't selling well. Lens availability may also be a reason, but at least the lenses already available are good. Canon simply cannot price above the mirrorless competition and offer performance below. The M needs to be cheaper. 

I hope this rumor is wrong, any improvement Canon can bring via firmware would be welcome, even if marginal.


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## x-vision (Feb 18, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> Canon did know going in that the autofocus performance was not as good as others in the industry, but didn’t think it was a deal breaker.



Same for the 6D autofocus, obviously. 8)


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## Zlatko (Feb 18, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> No surprise here. 1st Gen product.


Yes, 1st generation products too often have some problems. But there is hope for this system as the 22mm STM lens for the M seems to be *excellent* according to the recent review on SLRGear. Let's hope the next model of the M kicks up the AF speed and adds a nice viewfinder. Fuji has got the right idea with their emphasis on the fast autofocus in the X100S, the 2nd generation of the X100.

Edited to add: it's funny that some of us have "EOS M" under our names at the left. We must be slow to focus.


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## Bob Howland (Feb 18, 2013)

I can't speak for others but slow AF was definitely the reason why I didn't buy the current M body. An absence of lenses can be corrected but I simply wasn't going to be stuck with a deficient body for years to come. What I want is something about the same size (or slightly larger) than my G10 but with dramatically better image quality and overall usability in low light. Also, after seeing the Metabones Speed Booster, I'd be willing to spend $1000 for something like it with professional image quality that lets me use my fast EF WA primes and zooms on an M-mount camera.

Are you listening Canon?


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## piXelRider (Feb 18, 2013)

That's sad, because AF was the dealbreaker for me. 22mm pancake was exactly what I was hoping for. And now the new one would be more expensive - I don't see myself buying that :/


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## ericski (Feb 18, 2013)

I'm another in the "AF performance was a deal breaker" camp. The form factor is very appealing to me but not until the AF is there.


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## SiuLoong (Feb 18, 2013)

+1 to above

Almost bought a Panasonic GX1 last year having been waiting for Canon to sort themselves out for a while, when the M was announced I was on the verge of placing a pre-order but the previews and then reviews put me off, I've played with one in a shop on more than one occasion and really really wanted to get it but I cannot afford to replace cameras regularly (my main body is a 30D)... if the AF was reasonable in comparison to its peers (other mirrorless not dslrs) I would already have bought but its the possibility of a newer better version that has kept me waiting. When it comes out, if its too expensive I may still go for the M as the AF speed is not an absolute deal breaker but it has been enough to put my off. Whilst it'd be great if there were more lenses that is absolutely not the priority for me as I have a collection of EF & EF-S I still want to use.

I really think there is a big market for DSLR users/enthusiasts who want the quality and control in a smaller package for convenience or as a backup body - NOT just as an alternative but as an additional to a bigger body. I still intend on using my 30D as there are some situations where whichever I go for will not be the best option, and I'd love to one day get a full frame dslr for portraits and landscapes.


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## c.d.embrey (Feb 18, 2013)

> Canon did know going in that the autofocus performance was not as good as others in the industry, but didn’t think it was a deal breaker.



This is typical Canon arrogance -- *if we build it they will buy*.

If the EOS M had the focusing speed of a Sony NEX-5n, and was priced competitivly I'd have bought one. Now I'm thinking of replacing my NEX-5n with a NEX-5r.


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## AprilForever (Feb 18, 2013)

Dear Canon,

Autofocus will always be a deal breaker. Remember when you invented the EOS?

Also, the lack of easy manual controls is another reason I am not buying it. I am much more interested in the Nikon V2, and even more interested in an Olympus E5, I I can figure the name out. You thought beginners would love to upbuy a camera with 2 lenses available, but overlooked that your real market was advanced users wanting a small kit. I would love to take the EOS-M on a mountain climbing trip, but am forced by your lassitude into wandering desire.

-Me


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## Bigmaxy (Feb 18, 2013)

I own an EOS-M and could never recommend it to anyone else because of the AF speed. Not because of the lenses.
When I purchased it I knew about the AF issue, I needed a second body to use my EF lenses on a holiday and took a punt that the problem would be fixed with firmware. I'm not moaning since it's a risk I knew before hand and still took. 
The form factor and rest of the camera is great. A built in flash would be good also.


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## verysimplejason (Feb 19, 2013)

I'm interested with EOS M but I'll wait till their product is mature enough (it takes some time). For now, I'll keep on shooting with my G11 when I'm not carrying my DSLR. I hope they offer something close to M43 cameras price with good AF and a flip-screen.


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## tomsop (Feb 19, 2013)

I really doubt Canon won't take the advantage of a firmware update to try to market it as an AF improvement and then leave it as an unquantifiable statement about improved AF.

It is funny how many people knew this would be a stinker before it saw the inside of a showroom. 1st gen is not an excuse - I would have fired the people who let a subpar product see light of day. We are too kind to these people and show way too much loyalty. 

I have been on the sidelines with my Rebel Xsi because I am a casual photographer and don't need this equipment to earn my living. I will continue to wait one more cycle to see if Canon can fix AF issues with the Rebel, M series or the 6D and not keep making silly mistakes (one point AF on 6D) - if the next product does not deliver then I guess Sony or Nikon will be getting my money.


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## botw (Feb 19, 2013)

The AF is not as bad as folks make it out to be, but it's clearly the weak link. AF depends heavily on the lens used and is more than useable in good light. It can't do sports, but neither could the 5n, despite the high frame rate. I've had the NEX, 3, 5n and 7 for comparison. AF on those was better, but ergonomics were way worse (even on the 7, though I know some like it). The Canon touch screen is great. If they had a faster AF system, this would have been a great camera, instead of a merely good or so-so camera.


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## wickidwombat (Feb 19, 2013)

what I dont get is 
when you use touch to shoot the AF is just fine
when you use it in a studio with studio strobes even using the shutter button the AF speed is about on par with a rebel (this is EFM 18-55 vs 600D with EF-S 18-55)

however if you use the shutter button any other time its a dog to the point of being basically unusable

I plan on using mine for video and timelapse mostly the kit lens is sharp stopped down and has IS so is pretty good for this, the 22mm is a great little lens too

I've gotten impatient and installed the ML alpha on it now and its looking pretty good so far!


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## projek_01 (Feb 19, 2013)

What are you guys talking about with the 6D AF problems? I dont have any problems with mine and I came from a 7D. Yes the EOS M is a tad bit slow but its fine for vacation use. I much prefer carrying it over my DSLR for random lazy shots. I hope this rumor is false though. Although the camera is "fine", faster AF would make it stellar.


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## Woody (Feb 19, 2013)

Nothing could be further from the truth.

The awful EOS-M AF is killing the product. I would gladly have bought one if its AF is as jiffy as the one on OM-D. Anyway, I am now happily running the OM-D and 6D systems.


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## infared (Feb 19, 2013)

M is for Misfire!
1. Last company into the mirrorless segment and:
Slow AF in 2013 from the biggest camera manufacturer? HUH?
2.No viewfinder or provision for an optional one. HUH? (gee if you are providing access to all of that Canon glass Canon could have guessed that most would want/NEED a VF???).
3.Canon was dead last launching this product...perfect position to implement a camera that surpassed and avoided the other manufacturer's shortcomings.
4. Canon has the deepest pockets and had all the time in the world for a great launch...yet came to the table with few native lenses.

I love my 5DIII....but I have to thank Canon for the M...they REALLY made me happy with my decision to buy two MFT cameras and ten MFT lenses. That LITTLE camera system is sooooooooooo brilliant! Thanks Canon! : : :

....and MFT is four years old.... HUH?


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## Iceman75 (Feb 19, 2013)

I have to admit, that the AF keeps me away from the EOS M, too.
Although... what remains is the fact that - unless you use a pancake - the thing is pretty bulky. So if you really want a pocketable camera I'd rather go for a Sony RX100 
Hope Canon will improve the AF AND produce a pancake zoom - then I'd seriously start thinking about an M

What I don't understand is the critzcism about the 6D - AF... what I read is that it really performs well - it just sounds pretty shitty on the datasheet due to the limited number of (Cross-Type) Sensors...


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## Woody (Feb 19, 2013)

Iceman75 said:


> What I don't understand is the critzcism about the 6D - AF... what I read is that it really performs well - it just sounds pretty shitty on the datasheet due to the limited number of (Cross-Type) Sensors...



There are many armchair critics out there...


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## Dylan777 (Feb 19, 2013)

Canon is so strong in DSLR field, including lenses. I'm not sure why they came short on M model.Both Sony and Fuji seem to be on the right track with smaller cameras. 

Look forward to see Canon FF sensor in compact body(similar to RX1) with fast AF(similar to Fuji). am I asking to much? ;D


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## jal2099 (Feb 19, 2013)

+1 to all of this. "Saved" is a strong word, but after months with the camera, Magic Lantern has kept my camera off of eBay...losing a chunk of it's value has something to do with that, too. Between Focus Peaking and being able to up the bitrate, ML is a real boon.

It's an odd little camera. After a decent amount of time with it, I tend to only dislike it when I'm not using it, but when I am, I have few qualms. I really appreciate just how small this camera can become. 



wickidwombat said:


> what I dont get is
> when you use touch to shoot the AF is just fine
> when you use it in a studio with studio strobes even using the shutter button the AF speed is about on par with a rebel (this is EFM 18-55 vs 600D with EF-S 18-55)
> 
> ...


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## RLPhoto (Feb 19, 2013)

tomsop said:


> I really doubt Canon won't take the advantage of a firmware update to try to market it as an AF improvement and then leave it as an unquantifiable statement about improved AF.
> 
> It is funny how many people knew this would be a stinker before it saw the inside of a showroom. 1st gen is not an excuse - I would have fired the people who let a subpar product see light of day. We are too kind to these people and show way too much loyalty.
> 
> I have been on the sidelines with my Rebel Xsi because I am a casual photographer and don't need this equipment to earn my living. I will continue to wait one more cycle to see if Canon can fix AF issues with the Rebel, M series or the 6D and not keep making silly mistakes (one point AF on 6D) - if the next product does not deliver then I guess Sony or Nikon will be getting my money.



EP-1?
X100?
X-pro1?
Iphone?
Ipad?
Windows Vista? (contrast win7pro)
Pretty much any 1st gen system or serious overhaul to a previous system.


All had serious flaws that is caused by 1st gen syndrome, compare 2nd gen products to these and its obvious of they're flaws. I never adopt 1st gen products.


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## ashmadux (Feb 19, 2013)

Then this turkey of a camera is as dead as it is now.

Horrible, HORRIBLE AF performance.    I couldn't believe how long it took to focus, its just unthinkable that canon would allow this.

Then again canon is all about protecting camera classes and margins nowadays. Could have been a great travel and street cam, but with that dreadful af its limited to shooting statues and mountains. what a waste. :'( :'( :'(


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## c.d.embrey (Feb 19, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> what I dont get is
> when you use touch to shoot the AF is just fine
> when you use it in a studio with studio strobes even using the shutter button the AF speed is about on par with a rebel (this is EFM 18-55 vs 600D with EF-S 18-55)



Putting a *Pocket Wizard* in the hot-shoe improves focus ??? that's beyond wiered. Does using *a flash in the hot-shoe* also improve auto-focus 

Next time I'm over at Calumet I'll check this out. I always have several Pocket Wizands with me. I'd mainly use an EOS M for studio work, so this could be workable 




> I plan on using mine for video and timelapse mostly the kit lens is sharp stopped down and has IS so is pretty good for this, the 22mm is a great little lens too
> 
> I've gotten impatient and installed the ML alpha on it now and its looking pretty good so far!



Be sure to post a link to your video tests.


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## dadgummit (Feb 19, 2013)

It was the terrible AF performance that kept me away not the lack of lenses. I can live without the viewfinder and built in flash because it makes the body smaller but slow af destroys any use I would have for this model which is taking shots of my family/ kids etc.


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## silvaeu (Feb 19, 2013)

The major issue I have with the EOS-M is the lack of a built-in flash. It makes no sense to me to have a second smaller camera to carry for convenience if it requires an external flash. When carrying only a mirrorless with a small lens, it makes no sense to have to carry a flash.

For now, I've opted for the Panasonic GX1. It has the ideal form factor and features... I just wished Canon had built a similar camera with a APS-C sensor.


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## Dylan777 (Feb 19, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> tomsop said:
> 
> 
> > I really doubt Canon won't take the advantage of a firmware update to try to market it as an AF improvement and then leave it as an unquantifiable statement about improved AF.
> ...



Would you consider Sony RX1 is 1st gen of FF in compact body? Took over 1k photos with RX1, I didn't see any issues yet? including AF speed

You said "I never adopt 1st gen products", I thought you had 5D C before 5D III? and what about your all time fav 135L?


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## wickidwombat (Feb 20, 2013)

c.d.embrey said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > what I dont get is
> ...



I dont use pocket wizards I just tested it with the elinchrom skyport trigger and the phottix odin (the odin is funny since the odin controller is nearly the same size as the camera. (neither of these triggers have any AF assist.)

it was very odd becasue it completely failed using touch to focus in studio (since the screen was black! so you have to guess! so its unusable for this

So i went back to trying the shutter button and was amazed at how much faster it seemed
i was really only aiming to compare image quality of the 600D and kit lens vs the EOS-M and its kit lens
so I was quite suprised when there was really not much of a difference in the AF performance between the 2 in a controlled setting

the 18-55 EF-M lens leaves the 18-55 EF-S lens for dead as far as image quality goes
as I said its sharp stopped down and has great IS for video i think its a decent little combo that has very little weight. I do need to have a more deicated play with ML but so far have encountered no problems using the alpha version.


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## RLPhoto (Feb 20, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> RLPhoto said:
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Well yes. DPreview even agrees the RX1 has its flaws and so have other indie reviews. Like the the first IPhone, its ludicrously over priced. 

I never adopted the 5Dc at release, I bought it well into the mk2 era. The 135L had its optical base in the FD 135mm, and improved on that design. Great product. 

Also I own a d30 but why does that matter?


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## Dylan777 (Feb 20, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> Dylan777 said:
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What flaws on RX1? Being the ONLY kid on the block, I don't blame Sony for pricing this camera at $2800. This is the only FF camera desgined in compact body for less than $3000, not to mention, a Carl Zeiss f2 lens is included.

To me...5D C is considered as 1st gen FF digital, regardless when you buy it.

Why that matter? You bought and used 1st gen product(s), but you claimed that you never adopt 1st gen products. Don't you think that was little B.S? 

Do you know the diff btw FD135 Vs 135L?


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## RLPhoto (Feb 20, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> RLPhoto said:
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Just like iPhone 1, so is the Sony RX1. Alone on the block but flawed anyway. Read DPreviews cons list for me. 

The 5Dc was first gen, like the EOS-M. Neither of which I have/had any desire to purchase when released. I purchased the 5Dc when it was already obsolete from MK2. No BS, perhaps you mis-understand the context of this thread & comment wrong. 

Sure the 135L has many improvements over its FD version, just like the 50mm 1.4 does.


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## Dylan777 (Feb 20, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> Dylan777 said:
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RLPhoto, you are very twisty!!! 

So now...5D III is out, would that make 5DC no longer 1st gen camera?

Any there any perfect camera(s) out there? with no cons?

AND NOW, you telling me that I mis-understood this thread & gave wrong comment.


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## RLPhoto (Feb 20, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> RLPhoto said:
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How many times have I typed that yes, the 5Dc is a first gen camera and has many many flaws but I never bought it at release for the full asked price when it was the only option. 

The thread states that the EOS M AF cannot be fixed with firmware. No surprise, because its a first gen product it will have all these flaws that cannot be fixed by firmware. Just like said 5Dc. But I never adopted products until Gen 2 was released. Simpy because gen2 will be better and gen1 will be a lot cheaper. Like iPhone 1 and iPhone 3G. 

I can guarantee when RX-2 is released, I'll be able to buy a used RX-1 for half of what you paid or just get the fixed RX-2.


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## Rocky (Feb 25, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> How many times have I typed that yes, the 5Dc is a first gen camera and has many many flaws but I never bought it at release for the full asked price when it was the only option.
> 
> The thread states that the EOS M AF cannot be fixed with firmware. No surprise, because its a first gen product it will have all these flaws that cannot be fixed by firmware. Just like said 5Dc. But I never adopted products until Gen 2 was released. Simpy because gen2 will be better and gen1 will be a lot cheaper. Like iPhone 1 and iPhone 3G.
> 
> I can guarantee when RX-2 is released, I'll be able to buy a used RX-1 for half of what you paid or just get the fixed RX-2.



So your complain is the PRICE of the first generations, not the PERFORMANCE. If it is the performance, you will never buy the first generation regardless of the price.


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## RLPhoto (Feb 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > How many times have I typed that yes, the 5Dc is a first gen camera and has many many flaws but I never bought it at release for the full asked price when it was the only option.
> ...



Lets put it this way, I didn't adopt the 5D2 either. It still wasn't the camera I needed, the MK3 was the camera where I adopted it ASAP to replace my temp 5Dc system. 

It's a price/performance ratio that matters and that ratio is always higher with a gen2 system. Thus I never adopt first gen systems but wait for Gen2's release.


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## Rocky (Feb 26, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> Rocky said:
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You have just contradict yourself BIG TIME. You adopted the 5D C (first generation), but not the 5D 2 (second generation).


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## RLPhoto (Feb 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> RLPhoto said:
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5Dc Released - Didn't adopt at release, Too expensive. *ONLY OPTION AT THE TIME.* For example, EOS-M is the ONLY Option at the moment for Canon mirrorless, just as the 5Dc was for affordable FF. 

5D2 Released - Didn't adopt at release, Too expensive, AF disappointed. Other option avaliable, a Used 5Dc for cheap.

Purchased used 5Dc until Mk3 Release.

5D3 - Released, Had all the features I needed. Adopted ASAP and replaced my temp 5Dc.

It a un-wise move to adopt a First gen product when its the only option available. I never adopt first gen products until the next gen is released, If its better, I buy Gen2. If its not better, Gen1 will always be cheaper.

Perhaps you need to re-read my previous posts.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 26, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> It a un-wise move to adopt a First gen product when its the only option available.



...unless you need the feature(s) that are only available in that first gen product. Granted, I haven't run across that scenario for photography...but it happens often in my day job.


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## RLPhoto (Feb 26, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > It a un-wise move to adopt a First gen product when its the only option available.
> ...



So, EOS-M Gen2 won't be better and make the Gen1 cheaper? And avoiding problems by not adopting a gen1 system until gen2 is released?


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 26, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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Sure, a second generation version will improve upon the original, and make the original cheaper. But if you require a feature or features of the first version, you put up with the problems (not like the 2nd gen won't have it's own set of them) and you pay the premium.


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## RLPhoto (Feb 26, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> RLPhoto said:
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Exactly, my original post.

"No surprise here. 1st Gen product."


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## ZS1RA (Mar 31, 2013)

I do a lot of wildlife photography and lugging gear around especially on aeroplanes is a problem. I have several L lenses from 70-200 f2.8 IS to the 500mm F4. I normally have these attached to my 1D MkIV. I have often wished I had another short lens attached to a body for quick access but the additional weight was prohibitive. 

Naturally when the EOS-M came onto the market I was very excited as I thought this would be a great 2nd and 3rd camera! Lightweight and cheap. Well since then I have been reading all the reviews on the slow AF I put that idea on hold, game and birds don't wait for slow AF may as well do a lens change if that's the case. It seems as if Canon is actually incapable of doing an upgrade as I am sure they would have done so long ago. I guess waiting for Firmware upgrade is a waste of time. I think they may be able to address the problem with the MkII, well maybe.


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## jal2099 (Apr 3, 2013)

ZS1RA said:


> I do a lot of wildlife photography and lugging gear around especially on aeroplanes is a problem. I have several L lenses from 70-200 f2.8 IS to the 500mm F4. I normally have these attached to my 1D MkIV. I have often wished I had another short lens attached to a body for quick access but the additional weight was prohibitive.
> 
> Naturally when the EOS-M came onto the market I was very excited as I thought this would be a great 2nd and 3rd camera! Lightweight and cheap. Well since then I have been reading all the reviews on the slow AF I put that idea on hold, game and birds don't wait for slow AF may as well do a lens change if that's the case. It seems as if Canon is actually incapable of doing an upgrade as I am sure they would have done so long ago. I guess waiting for Firmware upgrade is a waste of time. I think they may be able to address the problem with the MkII, well maybe.



FWIW, we have an EOS M and a Fuji X100s (and a 1D Mark II if we need to look serious). Frankly, the X100S with it's fancy new focus system doesn't strike me a much faster then the EOS M with either EF-M or EF lenses. I believe the slow/hunting AF reports are exaggerated. If you're really interested in the camera, I'd recommend testing it out before you dismiss it based on reviews. I have little doubt that the next version of the EOS M will be improved in all aspects, but jumping to the much adored X100S, makes me realized how capable the EOS M is. Plus, with that 22mm lens, you're getting some stellar IQ in a tiny, tiny package that you can take damn near anywhere. It sounds like the new SL1 is pretty peppy when not using Live View. It might be one to consider.


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## bigal1000 (Apr 17, 2013)

AF is fine with me I did not buy it to photograph fast moving kids or sports,thats why I have my 5D3


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## jerrykil (May 30, 2013)

Howdy,
Noob reporting in. I bought an EOS M. Why? Because Magic Lantern. I wanted to drop a couple of my criticisms of the criticisms here. You guys are advanced photographers. Why not use manual focus? What about zone focusing?

I am kinda kicking myself for not looking for a cheap NEX5r or just buying a cheaper NEXC3 with the nice prime they have, anyway. If someone hacks Sony firmware I will switch. ML+focus peaking is great, but sony already had focus peaking. I would love to see ML figure out how to town down the contrast focusing. 

1st post, woot


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