# 18 Stops of Dynamic Range - RED Dragon



## Freelancer (Jan 15, 2013)

http://filmmakermagazine.com/61605-reds-dragon-sensor-now-with-more-dynamic-range/


seems like every sensor maker improves it´s sensors except canon.

the new GH3 shows a big improvement and is as good as APS-C when it comes to noise, not to mention sonys great sensors .. and now RED.

and the 6D or 5D MK3?
marginal better ISO performance but lower spatial resolution and basically the same DR as a 4 year old camera.


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## bdunbar79 (Jan 16, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> http://filmmakermagazine.com/61605-reds-dragon-sensor-now-with-more-dynamic-range/
> 
> 
> seems like every sensor maker improves it´s sensors except canon.
> ...



I know, Canon sucks.


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## Canon-F1 (Jan 16, 2013)

> How is it that RED could enter the cinema camera market 7 years ago and now about 50% of the released features are “Shot on RED”?
> 
> How is it that Canon owned the professional stills market 3 years ago and now Nikon is handing them their @ss?
> 
> ...



blunt but correct...


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## jondave (Jan 16, 2013)

Can an actual sensor engineer shed light on this matter? It's totally useless comparing a dedicated RED video sensor to a dedicated stills photo sensor, the R&D process is completely different. So what if the RED 4K sensor can capture 18 stops of DR? It's only 8 megapixels (4096x2160) for God's sake, I bet it will absolutely SUCK at taking stills photos. 

All I read here is the usual biased 'Canon sucks' bashing. I want to hear real facts from an engineer saying that Canon's sensor tech is easily improveable and they're just slacking off.


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## chauncey (Jan 16, 2013)

Now, if I could only figure out how to use my canon glass on those things.


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## bdunbar79 (Jan 16, 2013)

Canon-F1 said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > I know, Canon sucks.
> ...



Who cares?


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## bdunbar79 (Jan 16, 2013)

It's really simple. If you are so unhappy with Canon's sensor tech, sell your Canon gear, switch to another company, and move on with your life. Unless of course, you are like some I know, who actually enjoy being unhappy so that they have something to bitch and complain about, because if they didn't, they wouldn't know what to do with themselves. The complainers to me, aren't actually credible, and I think they look really pathetic. I think it's a cry for attention (which, they're getting in a weird way).


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## Marsu42 (Jan 16, 2013)

bdunbar79 said:


> I think it's a cry for attention (which, they're getting in a weird way).



And it's meeting a lot of receptive ears on CR as bdunbar79 just proved :-> ... but there's not only the "jump ship" option, but due to the lack of sensor advancement a lot of people might delay purchases or buy lower-speced cameras like the 6d over the 5d3 until Canon catches up.


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## Axilrod (Jan 16, 2013)

jondave said:


> Can an actual sensor engineer shed light on this matter? It's totally useless comparing a dedicated RED video sensor to a dedicated stills photo sensor, the R&D process is completely different. So what if the RED 4K sensor can capture 18 stops of DR? It's only 8 megapixels (4096x2160) for God's sake, I bet it will absolutely SUCK at taking stills photos.



Here is a single frame pulled from footage from a RED Epic, looks ok to me:


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 16, 2013)

It sounds exiting, but, if I had a quarter for every promise they made that turned out wrong, I'd be rich. They seem to make statements based on hope.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 16, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> and the 6D or 5D MK3?
> marginal better ISO performance but lower spatial resolution and basically the same DR as a 4 year old camera.



more like as a six year old camera

hopefully the new process rumors are correct and they have finally woken up (once upon a time Canon EOS used to known for being at the FOREFRONT of technology, now all they want to do is sit around and milk things until forced to act)


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## Marsu42 (Jan 16, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> hopefully the new process rumors are correct and they have finally woken up



I'd be interesting to see how the 6d/5d3 sales to once Canon really improves their current ff tech concerning dr and maybe a little resolution - only then we'll see how important this issue really is, because of course now most proud 5d3/6d owners say that the current sensor is never limiting no matter what.


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## TexPhoto (Jan 16, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> I'd be interesting to see how the 6d/5d3 sales to once Canon really improves their current ff tech concerning dr and maybe a little resolution - only then we'll see how important this issue really is, because of course now most proud 5d3/6d owners say that the current sensor is never limiting no matter what.



I walk down the street telling random strangers just this. 

I have a 5D3 and would love for it to have the specs of the D800. I'd consider switching save for a $15K investment in lenses. In the mean time I am shooting great photos and avoiding making sweeping generalizations about my peers. Oh and sometimes I bracket, and combine exposures.


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## deleteme (Jan 16, 2013)

No, No, No.... don't bring out a new sensor yet!
I just bought two 5Dmk3s and I will get hosed on the resale.

Actually, I am very happy with them. More than enough res for anything. And as for DR it has enough for me. I have yet to be stumped by a scene that I could not manage if I really wanted to.

At bottom, a super wide DR gives one a RAW that looks dreadfully flat not gloriously beautiful. The info is all there. It is now for the photographer to post process the files to get what he/she wants. 
I see further computer bondage in the future.


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## sandymandy (Jan 16, 2013)

Why you need new Canon sensors like every year? If they pump out something awesome every 5 years im down with that. Would be crap if my new FF purchase would be blown away by next years release.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 16, 2013)

TexPhoto said:


> In the mean time I am shooting great photos and avoiding making sweeping generalizations about my peers.



Well, I did try to limit the generalization a little and of course it's just my 2ct personal opinion in a rumors forum. No doubt you can take great shots with a 5d3, 60d (my current camera) or 6d (my next camera). But imho it's like with all tech advancement, people on the older/current tech often seem to like to stick to the status quo, like b/w->color tv, horse carts->motor cars - you seem to be an exception to the rule if you say you'd like to have d800 specs.



Normalnorm said:


> At bottom, a super wide DR gives one a RAW that looks dreadfully flat not gloriously beautiful.



As long as the bit depth rises to 16bit, I don't see any problems with higher dr sensors - dropping data is easy, adding it after highlights are blown and shadows are noisy is another matter :-o



sandymandy said:


> Why you need new Canon sensors like every year? If they pump out something awesome every 5 years im down with that. Would be crap if my new FF purchase would be blown away by next years release.



That's just it - the current Canon sensor tech is 5 years old (5d2-gen, recycled in 5d3/6d) - Canon is bound to make a big leap this or at least next year, if not for the sake of tech advancement then to keep up with the competition. The 1dx sensor with might be the first indication, it has other tech as the iso->dr curve shows.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 16, 2013)

Mikael Risedal said:


> highest QE and DR



Could you please post the link to the 6d dr curve (and comparisons to 5d3/5d2)? Thx.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 16, 2013)

Mikael Risedal said:


> You can read about different sensors QE and DR here http://www.sensorgen.info


Thanks for the link - does their testing method include the full highlight recovery available in raw?



Mikael Risedal said:


> The sensor in 6D is the best sensor from Canon today


... except for the 1dx (as far as I understand the figures).



Mikael Risedal said:


> About 6D. Anyone who uses low-ISO shadows, they will appreciate, like the much lessened banding noise, and if you like to use 800 and above you will like the lower noise, including banding noise and if you like to crop or print large will find more usable and real detail.


I'm looking forward to my 6d purchase (once the early adopters premium is gone)  ... that's because if anything really kills my shots on the 60d it's banding when raising shadows, iso noise can be somewhat disguised if the final output size is small.


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## The_Arsonist (Jan 16, 2013)

jondave said:


> Can an actual sensor engineer shed light on this matter? It's totally useless comparing a dedicated RED video sensor to a dedicated stills photo sensor, the R&D process is completely different. So what if the RED 4K sensor can capture 18 stops of DR? It's only 8 megapixels (4096x2160) for God's sake, I bet it will absolutely SUCK at taking stills photos.



A couple of years ago I was shooting 8 megapixels on my 20D and doing just fine. Heck, I'm normally on mRAW on my 50D getting 7 megapixels. Go check out some of the photos taken by professional photographers on the Red Epic/Scarlet and see what you think


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## brad-man (Jan 16, 2013)

sandymandy said:


> Why you need new Canon sensors like every year? If they pump out something awesome every 5 years im down with that. Would be crap if my new FF purchase would be blown away by next years release.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 16, 2013)

Mikael Risedal said:


> It is sensor data, and 6D is slightly better than 1dx at base iso regarding DR, 11,5 compared to 11.2



Yes, I saw that, but who shoots at base iso anyway if it's no different from iso 800 except for a little more more dr (and high dr scenes require hdr anyway)? That's why I looked at higher iso levels, and here the sports-oriented 1dx seems to be the best of the bunch by a small margin.



Mikael Risedal said:


> You can gp to http://home.comcast.net/~nikond70/Charts/PDR.htm



Doesn't include the 6d (yet), that's why I was asking for other charts - thanks!


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