# Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Being Tested by Photographers



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 22, 2016)

```
We’re told that “more than a few” Canon preferred photographers have been out testing the EOS 5D Mark IV recently ahead of the expected August announcement. This should tell us that the camera hardware specifications have been finalized and the software remains the final piece of the puzzle to tweak and improve.</p>
<p>While solid specifications remain difficult to come by, we were told a few things about the video features of the camera.</p>
<ul>
<li>Internal 4K confirmed (again)</li>
<li>120fps @ 1080p confirmed</li>
</ul>
<p>We couldn’t get confirmation on 4K @ 60fps, but if the camera is going to use CFast 2.0 as has been rumoured, I think this will be a likely feature. Canon seems to be putting some marketing dollars behind 4K frame grab photography, as they had some presentations on the technique at NAB this past April.</p>
<p>We’re also very interested to know if this DSLR will be the first to get DIGIC 7, which is currently only available in the PowerShot G7 X II.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## bitm2007 (May 22, 2016)

If the 5D Mk IV has duel CFast and SD slots, would it be the end of the road for my trusty old CF cards or are they likely to still be usable via the similarly sized CFast slot ?


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## CanoKnight (May 22, 2016)

[email protected] !?!?!?! I thought this was going to be limited to the 1dx2 ! Wow..this is a serious video cam. I may have to sell my 3week old 5d3.


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## SPL (May 22, 2016)

Really hope it has CFast and CF card slots and same 5D III battery...


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## colorblinded (May 22, 2016)

Same battery as the MKIII would be nice. Dual CFast I'd be OK with, but I'd like CFast/CF instead.

Very curious to see what the resolution and dynamic range parts of the equation will be. Shadow/noise and limited shadow recovery capabilities have been my biggest complaint with my 5D3.

I'd like to rely less on grad NDs and manual exposure blending. The broad dynamic range capabilities of the sony sensors, with the incredible shadow detail recovery, are too tempting for the kinds of things I shoot. I'd probably like something closer to 30mp, but either way, if Canon can't deliver at least the same resolution we have now with a considerable DR & shadow recovery improvement I may finally start trying to figure out how I would go about switching systems... and I don't want to, I like Canon better.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (May 22, 2016)

colorblinded said:


> Same battery as the MKIII would be nice. Dual CFast I'd be OK with, but I'd like CFast/CF instead.



I think we'll get a new battery after reading between the lines, but I can't confirm it.

I'd be good with Dual CFast, I thought the CF/CFast setup of the 1DX2 was ideal, now that I have 2 CFast cards, I kind of wish it was dual CFast. I'm likely in the minority and totally understand why they did one of each.


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## bitm2007 (May 22, 2016)

> Really hope it has CFast and CF card slots and same 5D III battery...



Same here, as someone who specialises in landscapes I have no need for faster card speeds. If compatible I'd be more than happy to continue using my CF cards in the 5D Mk IV


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## great9 (May 22, 2016)

I hope it's going to have illuminated buttons like D500.


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## IglooEater (May 22, 2016)

Get on with it Canon, I want used 5d iii's to come down in price!


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## iowapipe (May 22, 2016)

bitm2007 said:


> If the 5D Mk IV has duel CFast and SD slots, would it be the end of the road for my trusty old CF cards or are they likely to still be usable via the similarly sized CFast slot ?



Sorry to say, but the interface for the CFast card is totally different so there is no backwards compatibility with your Compact Flash card. (different bus, different pinout)


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## mb66energy (May 22, 2016)

4k is interesting - as fast frame rate photo tool for me (less for video).

2k with 120 fps is really interesting because it would give me some time lapse capability (while still interested in 5000 fps for physics teaching, but way too expensive at the moment).

Now my buying decision depends on the stills IQ in terms of overall IQ (color, resolution, DR) + image acquisition quality (exposure metering system + AF system). As a video capturing device it will sport DPAF - welcome to macro and landscape photography too (compositions with sharp main subject near border).


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## fentiger (May 22, 2016)

can not see the 5D4 trumping the 1D2 on too many things, some thing has to give, my question is what?


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## Woody (May 22, 2016)

4K frame grab photography - that is exciting!


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## tron (May 22, 2016)

bitm2007 said:


> > Really hope it has CFast and CF card slots and same 5D III battery...
> 
> 
> 
> Same here, as someone who specialises in landscapes I have no need for faster card speeds. If compatible I'd be more than happy to continue using my CF cards in the 5D Mk IV


I hope too for one CF slot.


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## gsealy (May 22, 2016)

Hoping for external 4K recording at 60 fps, 10 bit. Then too, C-Log would be nice.


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## RGF (May 22, 2016)

when the camera is being tested in the field, does that mean the hardware is basically done? That only the firmware is being tweeted?

Or can the camera be sent back to the design labs like the 200-400 was?


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## Maduro101 (May 22, 2016)

I would like to see at least on CF card slot remain as I do have a number of them. But I don't think 24 MP is going to cut it as this point. I'm hoping to se at least 32-26 MP at the very least and if it has better dynamic range as well then I think this will be my next camera purchase. Canon has to pull out the stops this time or they will be a joke.


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## PeterAlex7 (May 22, 2016)

Hope the price still the same with its predecessor just like 1DXII.

Similar DR performance and ISO with the 1DXII's.
7 fps
28mp
360k RGB
Dual pixel


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## unfocused (May 22, 2016)

fentiger said:


> can not see the 5D4 trumping the 1D2 on too many things, some thing has to give, my question is what?



Frame rate: 7 fps vs. 14; Autofocus won't be as good; High ISO performance won't be as good because of the 24mp sensor instead of the 1D's 20 mp; smaller buffer; weathersealing won't be as good; SD/CFast slots instead of CF/CFast. Probably some other differences as well.


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## Woody (May 22, 2016)

colorblinded said:


> I'd like to rely less on grad NDs and manual exposure blending...
> 
> if Canon can't deliver at least the same resolution we have now with a considerable DR & shadow recovery improvement I may finally start trying to figure out how I would go about switching systems... and I don't want to, I like Canon better.



I wonder how often first time posters say this. :


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## Dekaner (May 22, 2016)

gsealy said:


> Hoping for external 4K recording at 60 fps, 10 bit. Then too, C-Log would be nice.



I sincerely doubt it. That would eat into their higher-end video rigs.


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## Dekaner (May 22, 2016)

unfocused said:


> fentiger said:
> 
> 
> > can not see the 5D4 trumping the 1D2 on too many things, some thing has to give, my question is what?
> ...



This is spot on.


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## ahsanford (May 22, 2016)

bitm2007 said:


> > Really hope it has CFast and CF card slots and same 5D III battery...
> 
> 
> 
> Same here, as someone who specialises in landscapes I have no need for faster card speeds. If compatible I'd be more than happy to continue using my CF cards in the 5D Mk IV



I have to ask: if you are specializing in landscapes, one would think the 5DS rigs would be a better call than the 5D4, unless I suppose you are shooting astro landscapes. 

Are you expecting the 5D4 to have some massive DR improvement that be worth passing up all that 5DS detail for? (This isn't a wind up, I'm just curious.)

- A


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## ahsanford (May 22, 2016)

fentiger said:


> can not see the 5D4 trumping the 1D2 on too many things, some thing has to give, my question is what?



Areas where the 5D4 will trump the 1DX2 -- they aren't that many or all that amazing, but here's my guess:

Certain: Less cost

Certain: Cheaper accessories, a larger accessories third party ecosystem, etc.

Certain: Less size/weight

*Likely: a new/'first' feature that isn't on the 1DX 2* --> remember the 5D3 gave us silent shutter and in-camera HDR mode, the 7D2 gave us anti-flicker mode an in-camera timelapse mode, the 80D 70D gave us DPAF, etc.

Possibly: Wifi onboard

Unlikely: Radio master onboard (I'm dreaming, but if this is *the* wedding photographer's camera, that's an awesome way to sell it)

Unlikely: A tilty-flippy screen (...if you call that 'trumping' the 1DX2, which most would say yes but there are still some holdouts)

- A


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## rrcphoto (May 22, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> bitm2007 said:
> 
> 
> > > Really hope it has CFast and CF card slots and same 5D III battery...
> ...



yeah, I hear you on this. 5D IV will be a "landscape" camera, of course it can do them. 

Personally I'm holding out more for a 6D Mark II with a fully articulating screen and all the communication goodies (wifi, gps, nfc) in a smaller more compact camera as a "go to" landscape camera.

or the SL1x full frame mirrorless with EVF and flippy tilt screen.


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## CarlMillerPhoto (May 22, 2016)

Dekaner said:


> gsealy said:
> 
> 
> > Hoping for external 4K recording at 60 fps, 10 bit. Then too, C-Log would be nice.
> ...



The 1dx II doesn't even do 4k HDMI output. No way will it have 10 bit. It also surely won't have C-Log unless Canon has turned over a new leaf with regard to how their product line is stacked. 

I expect the Mark IV to have identical video specs as the 1dxII with the exception of 4k 60fps (its inclusion would surprise me as no other sub $6k camera offers that). I think it'll have the DPAF features with the touch screen though. 

It's the 4k data rate and compression that I'm most curious about. The 400mbps motion jpeg just isn't practical, especially for event shooters. Canon needs to get the 4k data rate down to 100mbps somehow. We'll see if their Digic processing softens up the image (as it does with HD) or if it can keep things looking nice as their DV processors can do (as in the C100, C300, etc.).


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## ahsanford (May 22, 2016)

For some perspective on this, it's interesting to look back at the 1DX vs. 5D3 comparison as a possible harbinger of things to come -- this is from TDP:

*Canon EOS 1D X Feature Advantages Over the EOS 5D Mark III*

More advanced metering system (100k pixel, 252 zone RGB vs 63 zone iFCL)
EOS iTR AF (Intelligent Tracking and Recognition AF including facial recognition)
Frame rate is 2x faster (12 fps vs. 6 fps)
Higher frame burst rating (RAW: 38 vs. 18 rated / 54 vs. 33 tested)
AF point-linked spot metering and Multi-spot metering
Faster AF driven by more powerful battery pack (with select Canon L lenses)
EV 0-20 Metering range (vs. EV 1-20)
Higher native ISO settings available (51200 vs. 25600)
Higher expanded ISO settings available (204800 vs. 102400)
Less high ISO noise
Faster X-sync speed (1/250 vs. 1/200)
Dual DIGIC 5+ processors plus DIGIC 4 processor dedicated to AE functions
(5D III has a single DIGIC 5+ processor and a non-specified AF-dedicated processor)
Higher battery life rating (1,120 vs. 950 shots)
Higher shutter durability rating (400,000 vs. 150,000 cycles)
Higher viewfinder magnification (.76x vs .71x)
Shorter viewfinder blackout time
Viewfinder provides more nose relief from LCD (less nose spots on LCD)
Has a viewfinder shutter
Built-in Ethernet Port
More advanced self-cleaning sensor
Better Weather Sealing
Built in vertical grip
Accepts optional focus screens
7 LCD brightness levels (vs. 3)
More custom functions (31 vs. 13)

*Canon EOS 5D Mark III Feature Advantages Over the Canon EOS 1D X*

Price (a big advantage for most of us)
Higher resolution (22.3 mp vs 18.1 mp)
In-camera HDR mode
Headphone jack
Lighter weight with lighter battery
Compatible with Canon wireless infrared remotes such as the RC-6
Much quieter silent mode

You don't have to know too much about cameras to see how comically Canon tips the scales in this head to head, and I expect the same here. I still contend Canon will slide in a _*major *_new/'first' feature, like every better than entry level camera gets:

5D3 --> first with silent shutter
6D --> first with -3EV AF point (is my memory correct?)
70D --> first with DPAF
7D2 --> first with anti-flicker

- A


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## Tiderace (May 22, 2016)

While typing this another member stated it would likely NOT have HDMI nor 10 bit. I am with them on their logic. It is a total shame. This was their opportunity to not just catch up but move ahead. I cannot figure out their logic. Genuinely, they have such capable people. 

I have seen somewhere that it is rumored NOT to have 4K HDMI out and that the 4K is only 8 bit not 10. I was very much hoping that Canon would make the leap to ProRes 422 10 bit and provide HDMI clean out WITH audio finally. The really big change occurring in both photography and videography is dynamic range and low light capability with holding noise at reasonable levels. With regards to video, 4K television is an industry sell mostly since we all know you cannot even see a difference between HD and 4K until your screen is 72 inches and you sit back like 12 feet OMG! That said, HDR, High Dynamic Range television is very noticeable to most everyone side by side with even the best television next to it. And we now need cameras that can shoot photos and video to provide it and for video that means 10 bit not 8, monitors to see it, and software to work with it. 

C'mon Cannon Please!!! I love you give it to us, let me stay with you LOL


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## ahsanford (May 22, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> yeah, I hear you on this. 5D IV will be a "landscape" camera, of course it can do them.



The 5D4 will do it all, but if you are a specialist in landscapes -- like if it's the source of your income 90% of the time and it sits on a tripod, I'm hard pressed to think of a reason you'd choose the 5D4 over the 5DS unless that sensor is *so *good it fundamentally changes the game (which is unlikely, I think we'd all admit) ...hence my original question to bitm2007.

(I expect the 5D4 to improve the DR, but not to some dreamlike level where the ND grads can be retired.)

- A


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## CanonGuy (May 22, 2016)

Unfortunately I never record video with DSLR so these are useless for me (I'm sure some of you will find these very helpful though. So kudos to Canon). I'm a photographer and I need the 5D IV to be comparable to competition (canon is lagging like 2 years from competition with sensor tech). Step up in that area and take my money. Simple as that. Otherwise my next body will be the first non Canon body in my life. Ball is in your court. Just play it nice.


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## ahsanford (May 22, 2016)

CanonGuy said:


> Unfortunately I never record video with DSLR so these are useless for me (I'm sure some of you will find these very helpful though. So kudos to Canon). I'm a photographer and I need the 5D IV to be comparable to competition (canon is lagging like 2 years from competition with sensor tech). Step up in that area and take my money. Simple as that. Otherwise my next body will be the first non Canon body in my life. Ball is in your court. Just play it nice.



The question is this: will Canon succeed with the 5D4 if this is it's value proposition:

First 4K FF non-gripped camera

Incremental boost to fps, MP, DR (for the purpose of conversation: 24MP x 7 fps x 1 more stop DR)

All the tech the 5D3 didn't have last time around: DPAF, anti-flicker, expanded f/8 teleconverter use, -3EV AF points

All the things that the 5D3 pooched are fixed --> black servo AF spots, no manual focusing screen changeout, etc.

Price: $3500 (give or take)

I am not a 'sensor is lacking _therefore I am leaving!_' person at all, but even I would contend that it needs a bit more than that to set the market alight. 

- A


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## Billybob (May 22, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > yeah, I hear you on this. 5D IV will be a "landscape" camera, of course it can do them.
> ...



Improved DR and a legitimate ISO 64 like the D810 would make the 5D4 a compelling landscape choice over the 5DS. Frankly 24MP is plenty of resolution for landscape. More than that matters mostly if the photographer crops a lot. I shoot both Nikon and Canon, and frankly the only significant landscape advantage that the D810 has over the D750 is ISO 64. I only see the additional resolution when I crop. However, having ISO64 available for landscape provides an almost medium format quality image. 

I'm optimistic that the DR will be significantly improved especially if the IV uses the sensor technology employed in the 80D. RAW files from the 80D are far more robust and flexible than any Canon camera I've used. In a full frame sensor, this technology should be even better.


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## GMCPhotographics (May 22, 2016)

Traditionally, the 5D series has only a single Digic processor. Where as the 1D series has a dual Digic processor of the same generation. A dual digic processor usually has the same processing throughput as the next generation's single Digic processor. So a dual Digic 5+ is pretty similar to a Singe Digic 6. I'm assuming that this formula still works for the new Digic processors. So regardless of a Dual 6+ or a Single 7...it's pretty much the same. 
Id we take the specs of the 1DxII, we get 20.2 x 14 fps = 280mbits/s. If we take that through put and dial in the new 5D's rumoured fps...we get 280 / 8 = 35mp. If we assume 7 fps (more likely) we get 40mp...so we have lots of room for Canon to underclock and under serve us as customers and dial in 7fps at 34mp. 
Canon can then cut this cake any way they wish...take 280 / 5 fps and we get 56mp...which is pretty much the 5D3S/R...so I doubt that Canon will change that camera to a 5D4 S/R any time soon unless they have access to a dual Digic 7 chip...which could in theory allow 420 mbits/s...a future IDXIII with 26mp and 16fps? Or maybe 52mp @ 8fps. Or 84mp @ 5fps.
So what am i getting at here? Well, the mega pixel race has been proportionate to the internal processor and not the sensor. It's the processor that allows the sensor to run at those specs and though put of data. It's the processor that allows the camera to move all that data around the camera at that resolution and speed. So Canon now have the ability to make pretty much any camera spec they choose...Do we need anything higher than 52mp? Seriously? So then the only advancement left is the fps rate at that resolution. I can easily see that the next generation of 5D (5?) will unify the 5Dx and 5DxS/R cameras into one unit again. 
Looking back over the 5D's history...it's amazing to see how well it's matured and what a fine camera it's become.


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## Deleted member 68328 (May 22, 2016)

The question I really wonder is: Will there be significant new tech inside? Improving mega pixel count, a bit dynamic range, etc. is welcome but not thrilling. 
What about the implementation of all the patterns that emerged a few months ago? Foveon-like sensor, shifting sensor? Something to improve AF accuracy/simplify AFMA?

It's been years expecting a change similar to switching from mechanical HDD to SSD...

Maybe Canon would not introduce too many new tech in the 1DX II as this camera is not meant to test new tech. But 5D IV might just be that camera. What do you think? When will come the new tech that has been rumored for so long?


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## bitm2007 (May 22, 2016)

> Quote
> Really hope it has CFast and CF card slots and same 5D III battery...
> 
> Same here, as someone who specialises in landscapes I have no need for faster card speeds. If compatible I'd be more than happy to continue using my CF cards in the 5D Mk IV
> ...



I rarely print bigger than 15x10 inch, and have never printed larger than A2. So the MP count of the 5DSR is overkill for me, plus I regularly shoot high contrast scene's and astro landscapes. So a MK4 with improved DR and better high ISO performance would be much better suited to my needs.


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## GuyF (May 22, 2016)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> I expect the Mark IV to have identical video specs as the 1dxII with the exception of 4k 60fps (its inclusion would surprise me as no other sub $6k camera offers that).



The 1DX2 has a large enough body that it can accommodate the plumbing to dissipate the heat from 4k 60fps, would full HD at 120fps produce similar heat and therefore need a larger body than current 5-series?

Could the 5D4 have a built-in ND filter for video (just something I overheard in a shop)?


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## CanoKnight (May 22, 2016)

Tiderace said:


> 4K television is an industry sell mostly since we all know you cannot even see a difference between HD and 4K until your screen is 72 inches and you sit back like 12 feet OMG



Most video today is consumed not on TV but on YouTube, and some on other sites like Vimeo. The difference between 4k and 1080p , actually even 1440 and 1080p is stark. Do a search on 4k video on youtube, preferably taken with a quality camera like Panasonic GH4 or 1Dc or 1DX2 and switch between 1080p and 4k (2160 or 1440). You will see the difference.


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## HurtinMinorKey (May 22, 2016)

The fps second and the resolution won't matter if it turns out to be the intentionally mushy compressed crap that came out of the 5D3.


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## unfocused (May 22, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> I am not a 'sensor is lacking _therefore I am leaving!_' person at all, but even I would contend that it needs a bit more than that to set the market alight.
> 
> - A



I would add to your list: additional f8 autofocus points. This is certain to be a feature of the 5DIV, in part because Canon needs it to keep the 100-400 competitive with low-cost alternatives. I also believe it will be a big motivator for a certain subset of buyers.


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## PureClassA (May 22, 2016)

I'm already sold. I have the new 1DX II for this weekend from the crew at lens rentals. Can't wait for the 5D4. Preorder the instant I can.


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## CanoKnight (May 22, 2016)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> The fps second and the resolution won't matter if it turns out to be the intentionally mushy compressed crap that came out of the 5D3.



Agreed. I will consider buying only if video quality is at least as good as the 1Dx2 and it does [email protected] Video quality from the 7d2, my current camera besides the 5d3, is a joke compared to the gh4.


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## geonix (May 22, 2016)

Well I guess the video features of the 5D IV will not reach the ones of the 1DX II. So 4k with only 30fps? Well I could live with that. 

So in or around 2018 the canon crop dslrs 90D and 7D III will also shoot 4k


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## fallsong (May 22, 2016)

I am told that it is 28 MP and the shadow noise is still not very good. It has been tested for four months now.

But in overall, it is a good camera.


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## slclick (May 22, 2016)

It really miffs me that we are not informed of a cutoff date for posting our personal spec selections before they finalize a product. 

Meanwhile my 5D3 still works!


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## unfocused (May 22, 2016)

fallsong said:


> I am told that it is 28 MP and the shadow noise is still not very good. It has been tested for four months now.
> 
> But in overall, it is a good camera.



Since you only have four posts, I'll try not to be mean. But, we frequently see posts like yours which try to give the impression of having some inside knowledge. In order to be credible, you need to explain your source, otherwise it can just appear you are trolling.


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## unfocused (May 22, 2016)

slclick said:


> It really miffs me that we are not informed of a cutoff date for posting our personal spec selections before they finalize a product.
> 
> Meanwhile my 5D3 still works!



 That's because the Canon development team keeps a running tab on Canon Rumors feature demands and keeps modifying the specs. They know that if they don't do so, Canon is *******. The 5DIV was going to be announced in January, but they decided to delay it, so they could mine this site for additional feedback.

Based on what they have learned it will be a failed "mirrorslapper" that has somewhere between 20 and 45 mp.; between 3-18 fps, will shoot either 1080 HD, or 4K or 8K or 16K (or might not have any video at all because some people resent "paying" for video); either will or won't have a tilt screen, touch screen, wifi or gps; might have better dynamic range at base ISO; might have DPAF; is likely to have an autofocus system; and will have slots for memory cards.


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## YuengLinger (May 22, 2016)

Am I just now noticing how many multiple screen-names are conversing with THEMSELVES?

Fortunately the troll bait has become so familiar that they are that desperate.

Good job, all legit posters, at not engaging the 4K, leaving-Canon DRones!


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## fallsong (May 22, 2016)

unfocused said:


> fallsong said:
> 
> 
> > I am told that it is 28 MP and the shadow noise is still not very good. It has been tested for four months now.
> ...



Believe it or not is your personal choice. Do you think it is appropriate to disclose the photographers' names to ruin their occupation?

I also have the information on 16-35 III/2.8 too. Having lots of posts doesn't mean credibility.


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## arthur (May 22, 2016)

these camera will not be special if it not have at least internal 4k 10 bit 4:2:2 60fps .. 

i am tired from 8 bit crap ..


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## Maiaibing (May 22, 2016)

Another unreal non-rumour on the 5DIV... Wow, Canon must be keeping things tight.

Announcement in August? Sure. Canon said a 5DIV was in the works back in 2014 - don't need a rumor mills to expect announcement/release this fall.


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## Diltiazem (May 22, 2016)

fallsong said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > fallsong said:
> ...



Please, tell us a bit more then. Like FPS, video capabilities, etc.


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## hubie (May 22, 2016)

CanonGuy said:


> Unfortunately I never record video with DSLR so these are useless for me (I'm sure some of you will find these very helpful though. So kudos to Canon). I'm a photographer and I need the 5D IV to be comparable to competition (canon is lagging like 2 years from competition with sensor tech). Step up in that area and take my money. Simple as that. Otherwise my next body will be the first non Canon body in my life. Ball is in your court. Just play it nice.



2 years behind? So with the 5D III at release they were 2 years ahead I guess...


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## douglaurent (May 22, 2016)

I strongly doubt the 5D4 will have 4K 60fps, although it would be the only feature that makes me buy two.
Canon will never do two steps when it comes to specs, and to protect the 1DX2 and C500II 60fps will be a no go.

In the year 2020, two years after all other manufacturers have implemented 4K 60fps in their lowest models, Canon will start to come up with it in the 5D5, probably to compete with the Sony A9 Mark4.


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## dslrdummy (May 23, 2016)

28mp and 7fps would be a nice increase and make it a useful companion to the 1DXii.


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## brianftpc (May 23, 2016)

I dont see this camera being over 28mp. Its not meant to be a direct competitor of the D800 anymore. Thats what the 5DsR is for. Also the 1Dx 2 had ZERO high iso low light noise improvement so if the 5d 4 cranks up the MPs youll see a camera thats actually worse in low light than the previous generation. Also if they cant make the MPs too high so they can protect the next 5Ds model. The next 5Ds really needs to directly compete with the a7R2.


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## fallsong (May 23, 2016)

Please, tell us a bit more then. Like FPS, video capabilities, etc.
[/quote]

I did not ask for. Sorry, I have no information on those. 28 MP is from one photographer who I am not 100% sure. But the second one telling me about the DR and noise is reliable. The second one is also testing the 16-35 III.

All I can say are these two are coming very soon and I will buy both of them.


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## pwp (May 23, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> colorblinded said:
> 
> 
> > Same battery as the MKIII would be nice. Dual CFast I'd be OK with, but I'd like CFast/CF instead.
> ...



This might be a good opportunity for Canon to do what Nikon offers, a choice of twin CF or twin XQD memory cards. Despite having a handy stash of fast high capacity CF cards, I'd get with the strength and tick the box for twin CFast. 

-pw


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## CanoKnight (May 23, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> I strongly doubt the 5D4 will have 4K 60fps,




4k @ 60fps is about the same amount of data as 2k @ 120 fps. If the processor can handle one it should be able to handle the other, so computing power wise there is no problem. In my non expert opinion I would guess heating issue should not be any different either for channeling all that data through the pipeline. If the 5D4 comes without 4k/60, it will likely be a marketing decision. But does Canon really expect people to fork over several thousand more just to be able to do slow mo 4k ? 

Keep in mind the upcoming Panasonic GH5 according to rumors is going to be a 4k powerhouse. It will also be 6k capable. If Canon wants to reclaim the indie market that it once dominated with the 5D2, this will be their opportunity.


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## Mr. Low Notes (May 23, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> fentiger said:
> 
> 
> > can not see the 5D4 trumping the 1D2 on too many things, some thing has to give, my question is what?
> ...



The 70D was the first with DPAF not the 80D. It's sad that DPAF is so often overlooked. I don't mean on here but in general review sites don't give it the attention it deserves. Just my opinion.... :


----------



## K (May 23, 2016)

The 1DX2 tells us a lot about the 5D4. That is, it won't be the equal or better on just about anything.

5D4 will win on resolution. But again, once past a certain ISO point, the 1DX2 will have better IQ.

If the same trend between the 1DX and 5D3 continues, then nothing will be better on the 5D4 except for max resolution, leading to better IQ at ISO 100 and 200 only.


----------



## RickWagoner (May 23, 2016)

The Canon Ambassadors are doing final field testing and marketing work, they have pre-release models...actually they have had them for awhile now. I told you months ago 4k was for sure in. You people are in for a fun all around "little" camera in a few months!!! Even i am impressed with it and may just well save up my pennies for one myself. Can't say much on details but don't expect high Megapixels or crazy fast fps but do expect the best DR ever from a Canon!

of course you don't believe me...


----------



## ahsanford (May 23, 2016)

Mr. Low Notes said:


> The 70D was the first with DPAF not the 80D. It's sad that DPAF is so often overlooked. I don't mean on here but in general review sites don't give it the attention it deserves. Just my opinion.... :



Terrible oversight, my bad. Thanks for the correction.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (May 23, 2016)

:'(


K said:


> The 1DX2 tells us a lot about the 5D4. That is, it won't be the equal or better on just about anything.
> 
> 5D4 will win on resolution. But again, once past a certain ISO point, the 1DX2 will have better IQ.
> 
> If the same trend between the 1DX and 5D3 continues, then nothing will be better on the 5D4 except for max resolution, leading to better IQ at ISO 100 and 200 only.



_And how good was the silent shutter mode on your original 1DX,_ if you don't mind my asking? How was the DPAF or anti-flicker mode on that 1DX, hmm? Or how about that -3 EV center AF point?

Oh, that's right. Lesser/cheaper models got those things before the 1D line did. :

Yes, the 5D4 won't outpunch the 1DX2 in anything but resolution / less weight / less size. But it _probably _will have an ace up its sleeve that we didn't see coming.

- A


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (May 23, 2016)

RickWagoner said:


> The Canon Ambassadors are doing final field testing and marketing work, they have pre-release models...actually they have had them for awhile now. I told you months ago 4k was for sure in. You people are in for a fun all around "little" camera in a few months!!! Even i am impressed with it and may just well save up my pennies for one myself. Can't say much on details but don't expect high Megapixels or crazy fast fps but do expect the best DR ever from a Canon!
> 
> of course you don't believe me...



When you say best DR ever from a Canon, better than 80D and 1DX2 (which rather disappointed me, best ever for Canon, but still so far behind Exmor). If they could at least get to say within 1/2 stop of A7R II ISO 100 DR then I'd probably be all over this wow. 

If it's like 1DX2/80D DR or just a tiny bit better man I don't think so then and for sure not if they left out 100% zoomed video focusing aids and such.


----------



## 100 (May 23, 2016)

CanoKnight said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > I strongly doubt the 5D4 will have 4K 60fps,
> ...



2k = 2048*1080 ~ 2.2mp
4k = 4096*2160 ~ 8.8mp
So not 2 times the data but 4 times. 
4k @ 60fps = 2k @ 240fps.


----------



## zim (May 23, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> But it _probably _will have an ace up its sleeve that we didn't see coming.



AFAA Perhaps


----------



## K (May 23, 2016)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > The Canon Ambassadors are doing final field testing and marketing work, they have pre-release models...actually they have had them for awhile now. I told you months ago 4k was for sure in. You people are in for a fun all around "little" camera in a few months!!! Even i am impressed with it and may just well save up my pennies for one myself. Can't say much on details but don't expect high Megapixels or crazy fast fps but do expect the best DR ever from a Canon!
> ...




I doubt they'll get within 1/2 stop of the Exmor. The leap Canon has made in DR is significant for Canon, but isn't competitive with the industry. It comes down to end users. Is the increase good enough? This will please the very small percentage of Canon users who care about DR and can use more. But it won't please those looking for the most they can get. Those folks have mostly jumped ship to Nikon already. If there are any hold outs left - then the 1DX2 and 80D results should be enough to convince them not to bother waiting for the 5D4.

While Canon could "tune" their sensor in the 5D4 for better DR at low ISO, being that the 1DX2 is setup for good high ISO performance and doesn't focus on low ISO DR, how much can they get? I doubt with their current tech they will put out anything close to Nikon. 

Fortunately for Canon, having massive DR at ISO 64, 100 and 200 isn't the priority of pros, serious enthusiasts and the industry as a whole.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (May 23, 2016)

Canon, as usual will add small improvements over a wide range so that no one feature would cause me to run out and buy one. This formula has worked for them since their first film SLR's, so do not expect any revolutionary features. A dual pixel sensor with on chip A-D conversion will not push ISO capability higher, but will allow for Autofocus during video and reduce low ISO noise. Frame grabbing of 4K video will be a tool for bird photographers as well as for other subjects. Wi-Fi and GPS are pretty standard by now, but fast Wi-Fi that is long range would be welcome. As usual, third party reverse engineering of lenses will be broken, perhaps the same for flashes. Early adopters will need to wait for Lightroom and most other software to catch up.

In short, Canon will produce a mainstream camera that will be class leading for years to come, four years wait for the next model is too long though, they need to really push to develop the dual pixel sensor technology further. Since sensors are hitting the limits of performance increases, other tricks to lower noise will be needed and are coming. I do not expect improvements to stop with a 5D MK IV.


----------



## Chaitanya (May 23, 2016)

apart from 4K, that 1080 @120fps certainly would be helpful. Guess I will wait for final announcement to believe as Canon always castrates their cameras to protect "High-end" products.


----------



## tpatana (May 23, 2016)

great9 said:


> I hope it's going to have illuminated buttons like D500.



When I was in the army, I could disassemble and put back together my rifle, blindfolded. When I'm taking pictures, I know any menu button location very well without looking at them. They don't move you know.

I'm not sure why people often mention that as a plus. It'd add non-needed electronic parts in there, both taking space and one more thing to break down. So please no.



SPL said:


> Really hope it has CFast and CF card slots and same 5D III battery...



Being selfish, I'd love these too but for general audience I think SD+CFast and new battery type will make more sense.

Other item's I'd love:

-36-50MPix
-1080p120 or especially 1080p240


----------



## scottkinfw (May 23, 2016)

bitm2007 said:


> If the 5D Mk IV has duel CFast and SD slots, would it be the end of the road for my trusty old CF cards or are they likely to still be usable via the similarly sized CFast slot ?



Nope. The CF and C fast are not interchangeable.

sek


----------



## scottkinfw (May 23, 2016)

fentiger said:


> can not see the 5D4 trumping the 1D2 on too many things, some thing has to give, my question is what?



Likely MP will be more. That may be a great reason to buy one as a second camera to the 1DXII, if you have the $$$.

sek


----------



## Talley (May 23, 2016)

I was told 28mp using a new 0.18um cmos sensor will give 1.4 stops more base iso DR and roughly 1/2 stop higher ISO noise performance over the 1dx2


----------



## Woody (May 23, 2016)

Mr. Low Notes said:


> I don't mean on here but in general review sites don't give it the attention it deserves. Just my opinion.... :



I think DPAF received a lot of attention when it was first announced on the 70D.

The issue lies in actual use:
(i) The black-out time for 70D with DPAF in live view is quite long. This severely limits the usability of live view mode. 
(ii) Before 80D, DPAF tracking is not possible in AF servo mode. 
(iii) Canon's algo for DPAF is primitive; lacks the ability to specify single eye AF. 
(iv) Size of each DPAF area is rather large. 
(v) Even AF tracking algo that uses DPAF does not intelligently make full use of color info; this may result in less-than-stellar results for distant subject tracking (as reported by DPReview). 

Appears that Canon is still heavily dependent on distance info in AF servo mode.


----------



## scottkinfw (May 23, 2016)

Woody said:


> colorblinded said:
> 
> 
> > I'd like to rely less on grad NDs and manual exposure blending...
> ...



I see another option. If you don't like the new offerings, hold until a model comes out that is fitting of your expertise. If he insists on selling off his gear, he can let me know, I might be interested in a fireside sale.

sek


----------



## gmon750 (May 23, 2016)

bitm2007 said:


> If the 5D Mk IV has duel CFast and SD slots, would it be the end of the road for my trusty old CF cards or are they likely to still be usable via the similarly sized CFast slot ?



The slower (old) cards should still work at the same speed it's always been. It's just that if you expect to use the faster speed, you'd have to upgrade to more modern cards. That's just the nature of modern technology.


----------



## CanoKnight (May 23, 2016)

> So not 2 times the data but 4 times.
> 4k @ 60fps = 2k @ 240fps.



You are right. I overlooked that. Data rate is proportional to the area, not length.


----------



## unfocused (May 23, 2016)

gmon750 said:


> bitm2007 said:
> 
> 
> > If the 5D Mk IV has duel CFast and SD slots, would it be the end of the road for my trusty old CF cards or are they likely to still be usable via the similarly sized CFast slot ?
> ...



No. No. No. This has already been answered. You cannot us CF cards in theCFast slot.


----------



## colorblinded (May 23, 2016)

scottkinfw said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > colorblinded said:
> ...


I should have known someone (Woody in this case) would have something to say...

I'm certainly aware of the endless flamewars on the topic but while I've followed this site for a long time, I never felt compelled to jump in to the forum. I think it finally happened because my relationship with Canon is really growing strained now. I was already holding off and bought the 5D3 within 6 months of its launch anyway because I wanted to get back to a 24x36 sized sensitive medium. I have been largely happy with the 5D3, but shooting alongside a friend with the D800 often enough, I've faced some frustrations when I saw what was possible. It has never really given me the warm fuzzies like my trusty old 1D2.

Definitely Canon's ergonomics and have quite a few lenses, including some for which there's no comparable offering from Nikon. 

No need for better AF, better high ISO, more focusing points, or more video capabilities. That being said, if there's a tangible improvement in DR I will be trading my 3 in for the 4 in a hurry.

Now, if we could get a 32ish mp sensor with high DR in an EOS 3 ish body, I'd be in heaven. I'll even take the ECF again, please.


----------



## romanr74 (May 23, 2016)

hubie said:


> CanonGuy said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately I never record video with DSLR so these are useless for me (I'm sure some of you will find these very helpful though. So kudos to Canon). I'm a photographer and I need the 5D IV to be comparable to competition (canon is lagging like 2 years from competition with sensor tech). Step up in that area and take my money. Simple as that. Otherwise my next body will be the first non Canon body in my life. Ball is in your court. Just play it nice.
> ...



Apparently...

exact


----------



## romanr74 (May 23, 2016)

fallsong said:


> Please, tell us a bit more then. Like FPS, video capabilities, etc.



I did not ask for. Sorry, I have no information on those. 28 MP is from one photographer who I am not 100% sure. But the second one telling me about the DR and noise is reliable. The second one is also testing the 16-35 III.

All I can say are these two are coming very soon and I will buy both of them.
[/quote]

I hope you're not a bragger/pretender/wtf... I'd love the two to be announced soon and i'd love the two to be good and worthy an upgrade from MKIII and MKII respectively...


----------



## romanr74 (May 23, 2016)

RickWagoner said:


> The Canon Ambassadors are doing final field testing and marketing work, they have pre-release models...actually they have had them for awhile now. I told you months ago 4k was for sure in. You people are in for a fun all around "little" camera in a few months!!! Even i am impressed with it and may just well save up my pennies for one myself. Can't say much on details but don't expect high Megapixels or crazy fast fps but do expect the best DR ever from a Canon!
> 
> of course you don't believe me...



of course not... you'd be disapointed otherwise...


----------



## romanr74 (May 23, 2016)

tpatana said:


> great9 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope it's going to have illuminated buttons like D500.
> ...



I'm *******. I never went to the army. Nevermind, Canon is ******* too...


----------



## romanr74 (May 23, 2016)

Talley said:


> I was told 28mp using a new 0.18um cmos sensor will give 1.4 stops more base iso DR and roughly 1/2 stop higher ISO noise performance over the 1dx2



Wouldn't that sound interesting...!?


----------



## GMCPhotographics (May 23, 2016)

K said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > RickWagoner said:
> ...



Yep...If I need more contrast range then I'll bracket and combine on Photoshop later. It doesn't take long and the results are really nice.


----------



## Sharlin (May 23, 2016)

So... one source says not to expect much DR-wise and another that it's 1,4 stops higher compared to the 1DX2 (!) That's rumors for you I guess :


----------



## Guillaume GLEIZE (May 23, 2016)

OK so this new 5D4 version seems to be video oriented as was landscape & studio oriented the 5DS(r) ... Too bad for me (and for many) who certainly are waiting for a new GENERAL CAMERA with GENERAL qualities as was the 5D3 ... 

I think we are a MAJORITY to wait for a MIX of better resolution with better fps speed and general qualities than a new movie camera or a new studio monster IMAO!

GG


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2016)

RickWagoner said:


> The Canon Ambassadors are doing final field testing and marketing work, they have pre-release models...actually they have had them for awhile now. I told you months ago 4k was for sure in. You people are in for a fun all around "little" camera in a few months!!! Even i am impressed with it and may just well save up my pennies for one myself. Can't say much on details but don't expect high Megapixels or crazy fast fps but do expect the best DR ever from a Canon!
> 
> of course you don't believe me...



Well, you could be right. After all, a broken analog clock manages that twice a day...


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2016)

dilbert said:


> it seems that you do not appreciate what better DR means - it means better IQ.
> 
> For those that don't want the DR to improve, ask yourself this: would you want the 5D4 to have the lowest IQ amongst all current model FF cameras?



By your definition of better IQ (more DR at low ISO), the Nikon D5 already has lower IQ that the Canon 5Ds...heck, even Canon's newest APS-C camera offers better IQ than Nikon's flagship pro camera. By your definition. :


----------



## CanonGuy (May 23, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> hubie said:
> 
> 
> > CanonGuy said:
> ...



You can be at the denial stage as much as you want lol. But I'll appreciate if you don't post your useless sarcastic replies. Those replies don't serve any purpose.

At release 5D iii sensor tech was current (nothing ahead, it was just a current technology). With the release of D810, D750, A7r ii etc., all canon sensors are FAR behind now. As I said, if Canon can't get their acts together with 5D iv release, they won't be getting my money this time. And many many of my fellows already have bought a non Canon body recently (I'm still howling off for me iv release).

Ball is in your court now. Go Ahead and post another useless sarcastic reply.


----------



## Etienne (May 23, 2016)

Guillaume GLEIZE said:


> OK so this new 5D4 version seems to be video oriented as was landscape & studio oriented the 5DS(r) ... Too bad for me (and for many) who certainly are waiting for a new GENERAL CAMERA with GENERAL qualities as was the 5D3 ...
> 
> I think we are a MAJORITY to wait for a MIX of better resolution with better fps speed and general qualities than a new movie camera or a new studio monster IMAO!
> 
> GG



Being good at video is part of being a good general all around camera today. People who cover events often need to collect both video and stills. Then there's the advantage of 4K screen grabs. Some predict that the future of sports photography ... is videography: high res screen grabs

The world is changing, and so are cameras.


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2016)

CanonGuy said:


> [You can be at the denial stage as much as you want lol. But I'll appreciate if you don't post your useless sarcastic replies. Those replies don't serve any purpose.
> 
> At release 5D iii sensor tech was current (nothing ahead, it was just a current technology). With the release of D810, D750, A7r ii etc., all canon sensors are FAR behind now. As I said, if Canon can't get their acts together with 5D iv release, *they won't be getting my money this time. And many many of my fellows already have bought a non Canon body recently* (I'm still howling off for me iv release).



Sounds like you're the one in denial...about your own importance. Since we still see Canon gaining market share, it's clear that 'you and many many of your fellows' don't mean anything in the overall context.


----------



## photo212 (May 23, 2016)

IglooEater said:


> Get on with it Canon, I want used 5d iii's to come down in price!


Yep. If the Mk IV is a video camera upgrade, I'll be picking up a new Mk III for cheap


----------



## AdamBotond (May 23, 2016)

Talley said:


> I was told 28mp using a new 0.18um cmos sensor will give 1.4 stops more base iso DR and roughly 1/2 stop higher ISO noise performance over the 1dx2


I'd be surprised. Not likely imo, but if that would be the case I am in as a buyer!


----------



## ahsanford (May 23, 2016)

Again, always bears repeating:

http://petapixel.com/2016/02/19/here-are-the-cameras-that-won-world-press-photo-2016/
(Also, see the highest rated comment below the story. :)

Award-winning photos taken on Canon cameras = 28
Award-winning photos taken on Nikon cameras = 12 (yes -- there are some EXMOR sensors in there)
Award-winning photos taken on Sony cameras = 1 (*zero* from the A7 brand)

In fairness, these folks would probably have won their awards with any camera, but the fact that they chose to stick with Canon through _these terribly lean DR times_ speaks volumes. These folks (correctly) see the bigger value proposition of what camera to use. They consider *everything* -- sensors, AF, lenses, flashes, build quality, 3rd party offerings, reliability, ergonomonics, handling, service, resale, etc.

I'm not saying I don't want more DR, and I'm not saying your desire to have more is misplaced. I am saying that in the big picture, Canon continues to delight us in ways _other_ than the sensor far far far more than my sensor is letting me down, and until that changes, I'm happily staying put.

- A

P.S. I'd honestly love more breakdowns of who uses what from other sectors than press photography, but I've had tough luck getting last 12-24 month sort of data. Please msg me offline and forward a link if you don't mind.


----------



## CanonGuy (May 23, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Again, always bears repeating:
> 
> http://petapixel.com/2016/02/19/here-are-the-cameras-that-won-world-press-photo-2016/
> (Also, see the highest rated comment below the story. :)
> ...



Yah canon had/has higher market share and thats the reason they got lazy. If a Sony can make those amazing sensors with having less than 5% market share of dslr, Canon also should be able to do so. I see pain and simple lack of drive to innovate there. Sony stakeholders are just praying so that canon be the same for the next few years lol. It doesn't take long to be market scrapper from market leader in this fast moving world.


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2016)

CanonGuy said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Again, always bears repeating:
> ...



In fact, Canon is near the top of their historical range of ILC market share, a market in which they've been #1 for the past 13 years. 

It's ok, though...you're in good company here on CR, there are lots of people who refuse to let pesky things like facts and data get in the way of their opinions.


----------



## romanr74 (May 23, 2016)

CanonGuy said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > hubie said:
> ...



Someone is in a good mood there... It was only just funny to read that 4 year old tech is 2 years behind competition. Further, I just see no point in making absolute statements like "all canon sensors are FAR behind now". If you don't want to use Canon further that is your right and you'll have your reasons. However you seem not to be able to make your decision or justify your opinion - why would your rant here otherwise... And even your many man fellows cannot convince you...


----------



## ahsanford (May 23, 2016)

CanonGuy said:


> Yah canon had/has higher market share and thats the reason they got lazy. If a Sony can make those amazing sensors with having less than 5% market share of dslr, Canon also should be able to do so. I see pain and simple lack of drive to innovate there. Sony stakeholders are just praying so that canon be the same for the next few years lol. It doesn't take long to be market scrapper from market leader in this fast moving world.



You're 100% right. Canon could absolutely make the sensor of your dreams, but they choose to invest elsewhere. 

And if Canon continues 'being lazy' for a long enough period of time, surely Sony will be able to outperform Canon at some realm of photography other than DXO sensor testing. (I honestly welcome that because it will drive the industry forward.)

But to migrate to another company now or in the near-term based solely on its sensor quality + 'spunky innovative spirit' *has no reward for early adopters* other than to puff up your chest and state that 'you were part of a movement or revolution'. 

Let me know how innovation and revolution feels while you wait for more native glass, while you use a menu/control system that makes you want to kill things with a hammer, while the AF whiffs at field sports / wildlife work, etc.

- A


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> CanonGuy said:
> 
> 
> > At release 5D iii sensor tech was current (nothing ahead, it was just a current technology). With the release of D810, D750, A7r ii etc., all canon sensors are FAR behind now.
> ...



+1

I wonder what CanonGuy thinks of the fact that Canon's new APS-C sensor in the 80D has more low ISO DR than the FF sensor in Nikon's flagship D5.


----------



## j-nord (May 23, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > CanonGuy said:
> ...



Facts get in the way. It's impossible to take good pictures with out industry leading sensors even if you have industry leading glass.


----------



## j-nord (May 23, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> j-nord said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


It's sarcasm related to the 'great canon sensor debate'.


----------



## unfocused (May 23, 2016)

dilbert said:


> "World Press Photo".
> 
> How many of them own their own camera vs use "The Company's"?



Almost all. Most of these photographers are freelance or contract photographers. Staff photographers at large newspapers may have access to pool cameras, and photographers on assignment for publications like National Geographic or Sports Illustrated, also may have access to specialized equipment through a pool. But for most of the world's photojournalists, especially freelance and contract photographers, it's Bring Your Own Camera.


----------



## unfocused (May 23, 2016)

RickWagoner said:


> The Canon Ambassadors are doing final field testing and marketing work, they have pre-release models...actually they have had them for awhile now. I told you months ago 4k was for sure in. You people are in for a fun all around "little" camera in a few months!!! Even i am impressed with it and may just well save up my pennies for one myself. Can't say much on details but don't expect high Megapixels or crazy fast fps but do expect the best DR ever from a Canon!
> 
> of course you don't believe me...



Why wouldn't anyone believe you. You haven't said anything that hasn't been known or expected for months now. 

Although I would be surprised if the 5DIV has better dynamic range than the 1DX II. I assume you forgot about that.


----------



## j-nord (May 23, 2016)

unfocused said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > The Canon Ambassadors are doing final field testing and marketing work, they have pre-release models...actually they have had them for awhile now. I told you months ago 4k was for sure in. You people are in for a fun all around "little" camera in a few months!!! Even i am impressed with it and may just well save up my pennies for one myself. Can't say much on details but don't expect high Megapixels or crazy fast fps but do expect the best DR ever from a Canon!
> ...


Wait, the new camera is going to better than the old one? That's breaking news!


----------



## Jack Douglas (May 23, 2016)

CanonGuy said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Again, always bears repeating:
> ...



I'm afraid repeating just won't accomplish anything. It's a mindset that is rather narrow, that fixates on specifics and does not want to see the broader picture. To each his own.

I'm happy to stick with Canon and I am still very pleased with what my 6D can do. Not to say I don't get GAS though!

Jack


----------



## midluk (May 23, 2016)

unfocused said:


> Based on what they have learned it will be a failed "mirrorslapper" that has somewhere between 20 and 45 mp.; between 3-18 fps, will shoot either 1080 HD, or 4K or 8K or 16K (or might not have any video at all because some people resent "paying" for video); either will or won't have a tilt screen, touch screen, wifi or gps; might have better dynamic range at base ISO; might have DPAF; is likely to have an autofocus system; and will have slots for memory cards.



LOL ;D


----------



## ahsanford (May 23, 2016)

unfocused said:


> Based on what they have learned it will be a failed "mirrorslapper" that has somewhere between 20 and 45 mp.; between 3-18 fps, will shoot either 1080 HD, or 4K or 8K or 16K (or might not have any video at all because some people resent "paying" for video); either will or won't have a tilt screen, touch screen, wifi or gps; might have better dynamic range at base ISO; might have DPAF; is likely to have an autofocus system; and will have slots for memory cards.



One wonders if AvTvM has no mirrors in their house at all...

- A


----------



## George D. (May 23, 2016)

RickWagoner said:


> The Canon Ambassadors are doing final field testing and marketing work, they have pre-release models...actually they have had them for awhile now. I told you months ago 4k was for sure in. You people are in for a fun all around "little" camera in a few months!!! Even i am impressed with it and may just well save up my pennies for one myself. Can't say much on details but don't expect high Megapixels or crazy fast fps but do expect the best DR ever from a Canon!
> 
> of course you don't believe me...



Which part, the specs or the pennies? If the price isn't right 4K or 8K bet it's no deal.

After 5D2 it seems series 5 is definitely becoming a multi-target group product. Stills people really don't care about video nor will they ever. Debatable if video people really care about stills. So one imposes on the other. I really can't say if improving on video improves on stills so we might actually benefit from video R&D. A win-win case of sorts or we're just wasting resources. In any case the Mk. IV *has* to be a model that sells. That means don't expect risky features like with the original 5D. 

4K is a move that leaves half the target group (or more) unimpressed. Maybe that's why it leaked early. Let's wait 'till August to see what is impressive for the rest of us.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (May 23, 2016)

unfocused said:


> fentiger said:
> 
> 
> > can not see the 5D4 trumping the 1D2 on too many things, some thing has to give, my question is what?
> ...



20MP vs 24MP makes no noticeable difference for high ISO SNR and one might hope the low ISO DR is better so the 5D4 sensor, one would hope, would basically be better, more DR, more MP, virtually as good SNR

5D3 and 1DX AF were pretty similar other than the the 1DX mirror did move faster so I guess the AF got to look a little longer in some situations and the color mode tracker which many seemed to think didn't often work so well anyway

probably a little weaker weather-sealing and 7fps vs 14fps and voice notes.

the metering might be much worse again with maybe no spot linked to AF point again? (just a guess, although other brands offer it at lower prices)


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (May 23, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > yeah, I hear you on this. 5D IV will be a "landscape" camera, of course it can do them.
> ...



If they somehow got the DR to be like Exmor than I'd bet a great many landscape shooters would rather a 5D4 over a 5Ds. Although if they are almost 100% landscape only an A7R II with a lot more MP plus the same DR (or sadly, maybe noticeable more) would seem better still than either.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (May 23, 2016)

Tiderace said:


> While typing this another member stated it would likely NOT have HDMI nor 10 bit. I am with them on their logic. It is a total shame. This was their opportunity to not just catch up but move ahead. I cannot figure out their logic. Genuinely, they have such capable people.
> 
> I have seen somewhere that it is rumored NOT to have 4K HDMI out and that the 4K is only 8 bit not 10. I was very much hoping that Canon would make the leap to ProRes 422 10 bit and provide HDMI clean out WITH audio finally. The really big change occurring in both photography and videography is dynamic range and low light capability with holding noise at reasonable levels. With regards to video, 4K television is an industry sell mostly since we all know you cannot even see a difference between HD and 4K until your screen is 72 inches and you sit back like 12 feet OMG! That said, HDR, High Dynamic Range television is very noticeable to most everyone side by side with even the best television next to it. And we now need cameras that can shoot photos and video to provide it and for video that means 10 bit not 8, monitors to see it, and software to work with it.
> 
> C'mon Cannon Please!!! I love you give it to us, let me stay with you LOL



agree with you on DR, ultra wide gamut and 10 bits and all but disagree about 4k

need a 72" screen??? The difference is clear as day and night on my 24" 4k screen, just as much as on my 60".


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (May 23, 2016)

fallsong said:


> Please, tell us a bit more then. Like FPS, video capabilities, etc.



I did not ask for. Sorry, I have no information on those. 28 MP is from one photographer who I am not 100% sure. But the second one telling me about the DR and noise is reliable. The second one is also testing the 16-35 III.

All I can say are these two are coming very soon and I will buy both of them.
[/quote]

that would be a real shame if the DR stuff is true

I have bad feeling I'll be sticking with a slightly messy mix of Sony plus my old 5D3, perhaps eventually going to Nikon to get it all in one body if they ever get it all together (Nikon has been being foolish and putting poor efforts into video at times). Still, even if nothing all together in an ideal package, some exciting stuff out there now.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (May 23, 2016)

Talley said:


> I was told 28mp using a new 0.18um cmos sensor will give 1.4 stops more base iso DR and roughly 1/2 stop higher ISO noise performance over the 1dx2



If that is true, and it very well may not be, that actually would pretty much be Exmor performance. It would be totally there for SNR and for base DR, I forget the exact numbers, but it seems like it would be at least close to Exmor, probably within about 1/2 stop, maybe even just a fraction off.

If it did actually have that as a sensor and some nice, oversampled 4k of the crisp detail, no DNR mushy and waxing it to a nasty fake look, the A7R II video just gives such natural crisp detail with no smushing or waxing as Canon video (other than for Cxx stuff) always seems to do, they give it some 100% view video focusing aids that could be pretty sweet. If they gave it 10bit CLOG to make up for 28MP vs 42MP in a way (granted they are different pluses and minuses) I'd certainly favor that trade off myself.


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (May 23, 2016)

Gotta say it. Getting kind of sick of the 4k whiner bregade. You've made your point, 4k is going into the 5d4 but is not good enough. Now us stills shooters have to find ways to manage 3 types of memory cards instead of 2 - at a much greater cost to boot. I do hope that the new battery is compatible with older models, and vice versa. The old 5d3 batteries should be able to power the camera for stills shooting with no crippling. Hopes, but if we lose the ability to use other batteries then that just plain sucks as it also increases the initial cost to operate. Please please please let us use 5d3 batteries in the 5d4!!!!

I'd love to rock the 5d4 5ds combo for weddings. But this let's try to make a segment of users who will never be happy happy thing is silly!!!!!!!


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (May 23, 2016)

Sharlin said:


> So... one source says not to expect much DR-wise and another that it's 1,4 stops higher compared to the 1DX2 (!) That's rumors for you I guess :



hah yeah just hope the second one is the real one


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (May 23, 2016)

j-nord said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > RickWagoner said:
> ...



5D3 had less DR than than the 1DX not more
5D3 has less DR (although such a small difference it didn't really matter) than the 5D2

so....


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> One wonders if AvTvM has no mirrors in their house at all...



Well, he has the one in his 5DIII. Might be hard to use it for shaving...


----------



## slclick (May 23, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > One wonders if AvTvM has no mirrors in their house at all...
> ...



Shaving... pishposh! All the MILC guys are waxing. (or was that waning?)


----------



## AdamBotond (May 23, 2016)

Speaking of specific DR and noise rumors of the upcoming 5D IV... I was wondering whether how evaluate those at this point assuming there is no way to even open RAW files, yet. You certainly can not draw conclusions based on JPEGs, that have much to do with the software of 5D IV, which has also not been finalized yet obviously.

So do you think that any of those DR, noise related rumours should be considered reliable assuming that no one has ever seen a single RAW file of 5D IV as of yet? I guess we won't really have a clear perspective of DR, noise specs, etc until first RAWs become available. Any thoughts on that?


----------



## ahsanford (May 23, 2016)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> the metering might be much worse again with maybe no spot linked to AF point again? (just a guess, although other brands offer it at lower prices)



Famously, I have a bone to pick about this -- I've said numerous times that a budget Nikon D5500 has this, _my iPhone_ has this, etc. 

Of the following list of potential 5D4 improvements over my 5D3 (some certain / some possible / some hopeful / some dreaming):

[list type=decimal]
[*]General improvement to IQ (read: broadly. Better DR, high ISO, etc.
[*]Higher fps
[*]Larger buffer
[*]More resolution
[*]Automated AFMA onboard
[*]1DX II AF system (as close as the 1DX to 5D3 was -- same number/type/spread of points, perhaps not the same lickety split performance)
[*]1DX II metering, including spot metering at the selected AF point
[*]4K
[*]Onboard radio master, no external transmitter required
[*]Base ISO < 100 (ISO 50, ISO 64, etc.)
[*]Tilty-flippy screen
[/list]

Given that entire list, spot metering at any AF point might be 3rd most important to me behind general IQ and the AF system. Not kidding.

- A


----------



## romanr74 (May 23, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > the metering might be much worse again with maybe no spot linked to AF point again? (just a guess, although other brands offer it at lower prices)
> ...



no tilty-flippy please...


----------



## ahsanford (May 23, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



And others would say no to more resolution while others make that metric their top priority. 

It's not a vision board, it's just a list of places the design might go. But I hear you.

- A


----------



## PureClassA (May 23, 2016)

I would have to assume a modest upgrade in resolution like 24MP is most likely. We have a brand new 24MP crop sensor ... let's have a brand new 24MP FF one too. I'd love to see DPAF on this for the video function, but I suspect that will be held solely for the DX2 which I shot with all this weekend. Lovely toy.

I'm thinking ahsanford is mostly right in his wish list, although I really dont see Canon putting a tilty-flippy on a 5 body.

Can't wait for August!


----------



## slclick (May 23, 2016)

The tilty flippy is going on the 6D2 because I need it for macro. Canon listens, you'll see.


----------



## ahsanford (May 23, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> I would have to assume a modest upgrade in resolution like 24MP is most likely. We have a brand new 24MP crop sensor ... let's have a brand new 24MP FF one too. I'd love to see DPAF on this for the video function, but I suspect that will be held solely for the DX2 which I shot with all this weekend. Lovely toy.
> 
> I'm thinking ahsanford is mostly right in his wish list, although I really dont see Canon putting a tilty-flippy on a 5 body.
> 
> Can't wait for August!



Wow -- no no -- that list was purely hypothetical, and all but certainly will not come to pass as written. Onboard radio master is pie in the sky wishlist stuff, and I really doubt we'll get spot metering at any AF point.

My _actual_ 5D4 guess remains similar to what we've heard: 

24 MP x 7-8 fps [grumble why only one chip grumble grumble]
1DX2 AF (...in general specs, but perhaps not in speed or pure tracking awesomeness)
4K 
DPAF (surely a certainty for a video heavy rig like this) 
Anti-flicker
A secret new feature that we will not be expecting but will become popular (like silent shutter, DPAF, anti-flicker, etc. were)

- A


----------



## PureClassA (May 23, 2016)

Ok and NO on the radio transmitter. But the rest of what you had all sounded fairly reasonable even if they dont all come to fruition.

Tilty Flippy on 6D2 however I would think is a fairly safe bet. That seems more like a 6 body feature than a rugged 5 body feature


----------



## ahsanford (May 23, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> Ok and NO on the radio transmitter. But the rest of what you had all sounded fairly reasonable even if they dont all come to fruition.
> 
> Tilty Flippy on 6D2 however I would think is a fairly safe bet. That seems more like a 6 body feature than a rugged 5 body feature



Agree on the 6D2 getting it, though others might argue that rugged and tilty-flippy can coexist:

D500: https://youtu.be/fC5jQgc_-w8?t=3m33s

K-1: https://youtu.be/87yGmD71nyA?t=6m18s
(let it keep rolling -- they douse it in a running stream)

These are not green-light 'it's good to go' testimonials for shooting arctic foxes in hellish conditions, but it's probably A-OK for most of us.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (May 23, 2016)

macVega said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > no tilty-flippy please...
> ...



I've gone around and around on this, but I'm leaning towards wanting one. Principal reasons I've changed my mind towards tilty-flippy _for the 5D4 market_:

1) Video. 

2) Crowded (wedding, concerts, events) or dangerous (protests, war correspondents, etc.) shooting environments. Get under a car or behind a wall and keep shooting, reach over the crowd with a wide shot, etc.

3) Pretty damn handy for low to ground tripod + liveview work -- landscapes, macro, etc.

4) If you don't like it, you don't have to use it. Though there is an added expense with all this that you won't use, take a number on that front -- I don't shoot video at all on my 5D3 and I sure as hell paid for it.

(#3 is the only one that really matters to me, but I see 1,2,3 fitting the 5D4 crowd pretty well)

But the only way to truly end the discussion on this is for Canon to either offer two models (one with tilty-flippy and one without) or for canon to make the LCD a rigidly-mountable/sealed module that can be changed out as needs change. Shooting in a hellish environment? Go vanilla/rigid. Need a tilty-flippy? Slap in the screen module you need. (That would also allow 3rd parties to offer specialized snap-in modules for different needs.)

And again, I'm not certain the 5D4 will get a tilty-flippy -- I'm just arguing that there's value even for _that_ demanding professional crowd.

- A


----------



## CanonGuy (May 23, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > I would have to assume a modest upgrade in resolution like 24MP is most likely. We have a brand new 24MP crop sensor ... let's have a brand new 24MP FF one too. I'd love to see DPAF on this for the video function, but I suspect that will be held solely for the DX2 which I shot with all this weekend. Lovely toy.
> ...



If those specs are true, ill be very disappointed! Only thing exciting over there is 4k and I don't do video. So, yawn... Couple big yawns.


----------



## Diltiazem (May 23, 2016)

CanonGuy said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Again, always bears repeating:
> ...



Lots of people often say, Sony is very innovative. But it is really hard to find Sony 'innovations'. Let's look at some of the ideas that made headline in recent years or months.

Mirrorless. Not a Sony innovation.
On chip ADC. Not a Sony innovation. 
BSI sensor. Not a Sony innovation.
Pixel shift. Not a Sony innovation.
Sensor shift IS. Not a Sony innovation. 
Dual Pixel AF. Not a Sony innovation.

Did I miss anything?


----------



## ahsanford (May 23, 2016)

CanonGuy said:


> If those specs are true, ill be very disappointed! Only thing exciting over there is 4k and I don't do video. So, yawn... Couple big yawns.



But we don't know the secret feature yet. What if it turns out to be illluminated/backlit buttons, or a modular LCD mount like I discussed, or an on-the-fly selectable EVF/OVF, or a new pony?

- A


----------



## ahsanford (May 23, 2016)

Diltiazem said:


> Mirrorless. Not a Sony innovation.
> On chip ADC. Not a Sony innovation.
> BSI sensor. Not a Sony innovation.
> Pixel shift. Not a Sony innovation.
> ...



Let's rephrase it, then. They are _resourceful at aggregating innovations_ from the imaging industry into (fairly) compelling products.

Call them 'resourceful and disruptive' or something. 

- A


----------



## CanonGuy (May 23, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Diltiazem said:
> 
> 
> > Mirrorless. Not a Sony innovation.
> ...



It doesn't matter if you innovate something and keep the patent in the closet lol. It matters when users can actually use those technology. I'm fine with a company that is 'aggregating resource'. They are bringing the technology to the masses while canon is a slow moving dinosaur. I hope they be able to give canon a good run for their money.


----------



## ahsanford (May 23, 2016)

CanonGuy said:


> It doesn't matter if you innovate something and keep the patent in the closet lol. It matters when users can actually use those technology. I'm fine with a company that is 'aggregating resource'. They are bringing the technology to the masses while canon is a slow moving dinosaur. I hope they be able to give canon a good run for their money.



There's another company that's been killing it with a lot of that tech -- that being Pentax -- but they lack the sexy sensors and that terminates the 'internet forum love flowchart' at Step 1.

But have a hard look at the K-1. That's a mirrorslapper's A7R with more tech onboard than the EM-50 Urban Assault Vehicle.

For some reason -- and it very well might be flange distance allowing adaptor and existing lenses -- folks fawn over the A7 platform while the K-1 is a bridge too far, it's too painful of a migration, etc. Yet functionality and handling-wise, the K-1 is probably a more natural fit for Nikon and Canon folks.

Yet Sony is the disruptive innovator that will take over the world, while Pentax is the tool for the weird kids on the science team. Go figure.

- A


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (May 23, 2016)

AdamBotond said:


> Speaking of specific DR and noise rumors of the upcoming 5D IV... I was wondering whether how evaluate those at this point assuming there is no way to even open RAW files, yet. You certainly can not draw conclusions based on JPEGs, that have much to do with the software of 5D IV, which has also not been finalized yet obviously.
> 
> So do you think that any of those DR, noise related rumours should be considered reliable assuming that no one has ever seen a single RAW file of 5D IV as of yet? I guess we won't really have a clear perspective of DR, noise specs, etc until first RAWs become available. Any thoughts on that?



1. Testers might, some of them, have been given a special DPP version.
2. All a tester would need to do is plop the RAW into say IRIS and then measure the black frame noise. That's actually the best way to test for DR. It doesn't rely on whatever sneaky thing some converter might do under the hood and just takes a look at the true RAW output, it's easily repeatable and it takes like only 30 seconds do the whole thing test.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (May 23, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> Ok and NO on the radio transmitter. But the rest of what you had all sounded fairly reasonable even if they dont all come to fruition.
> 
> Tilty Flippy on 6D2 however I would think is a fairly safe bet. That seems more like a 6 body feature than a rugged 5 body feature



I'd love a flippy, great for macro, video, even certain types of sports/PJ work, etc.
And when you need rugged, just keep it locked back down, no problem at all.
And has anyone ever heard of an epidemic of flippies getting snapped off?


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (May 23, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> macVega said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



+1


----------



## kevl (May 24, 2016)

Predicting 

24-28mp 
AF system similar to 1DxII 
5FPS 
4K 60fps 
DPAF 
1CF+1CFast
AF Mode switch like on the 7DII
Improved dynamic range 
1/2 stop better high ISO noise performance. 
Illuminated AF points the same as 7DII
LP-E6N battery 

This would be a must have body IMO. I can't imagine the 5D getting 7 or 8 FPS it just doesn't make sense for the camera.


----------



## LoneRider (May 24, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > I would have to assume a modest upgrade in resolution like 24MP is most likely. We have a brand new 24MP crop sensor ... let's have a brand new 24MP FF one too. I'd love to see DPAF on this for the video function, but I suspect that will be held solely for the DX2 which I shot with all this weekend. Lovely toy.
> ...


----------



## Busted Knuckles (May 24, 2016)

I am all for flippy.

Would be intesting if Canon went giant DR and back on resolution to 20.

I agree the landscapers are S or R oriented. This is the wedding machine??? That would push to the low lights etc.

I have a T3i and I miss flippy when I swap back and forth.

Or perhaps high res with a nifty mid/small raw that would be noise/DR solution


----------



## colorblinded (May 24, 2016)

Diltiazem said:


> CanonGuy said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...


They've had their innovations, but when it comes to integrating all these features they're a bit like Apple. Not the first to the party, probably using a lot of ideas they didn't invent, but they're making it effective and useful for people in ways it may not have been before.

Also, a lot like Apple, I wouldn't really want to live with a Sony camera and lens system as my primary. At least you can get a Sony sensor in a mature system (Nikon) if that's what you want.

To the talk of DR vs resolution, while resolution affects dynamic range (given equal sensor technology), I would like to think Canon will eventually be able to compete at an even level, not rely on lower resolutions. It'll be interesting to see what the 5D4 brings, but unless they actually roll out a new process technology and other considerable changes, it seems like we're destined to continue to see small steps.

A company could theoretically go to a smaller process, on chip ADC, backside illumination, and stacked (foveon like) all in one new camera all at once if they wanted to. It would certainly shake things up. Don't see it happening with Canon, even though they've got plenty of the patents and demonstrated technologies to make most or all of that happen.

Although the flawed argument of "look, plenty are successfully using Canon, so it's not needed" will continue to be parroted, I hope to see Canon try to compete more with their sensors. In the long run, it's better for all of us, and better for Canon's viability in to the future. If they do start to slip in the market, new sensor technologies aren't going to hurt to have and better to be ready with them than caught even further behind technologically. Competition is good, but it hasn't really felt like Canon has been putting all their effort behind things when I look at their fear of having products overlap (potentially deliberately neutering some of them), and their slow pace of sensor advancement. Complacency is common when you're at the top, although I wouldn't say that extends to Canon's glass. Damn fine lenses they're putting out!


----------



## Etienne (May 24, 2016)

A 5D4 with an emphasis on video has to have an articulating touch screen! Please!


----------



## ahsanford (May 24, 2016)

kevl said:


> Predicting
> 
> 24-28mp
> AF system similar to 1DxII
> ...



If it has the same framerate as a 50 MP 5DS, I'll eat my hat. It's 6 fps today on the 5D3 and the number only goes up over time.

I'd bet the farm on something faster than the current 6 fps. We've beaten up at length that a specialist wildlife camera (7D2) and a specialist high-res rig (5DS) each warrant two DIGIC chips while the 'all-arounder' 5D3/5D4 does not, but I still think 24 MP x 7-8 fps is more likely to occur.

- A


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (May 24, 2016)

kevl said:


> Predicting
> 
> 24-28mp
> AF system similar to 1DxII
> ...



Huh? The 5D3 already does 6fps at 23MP and, for a camera, almost half a decade later, more than 5fps would be pushing it for 24MP? ;D


----------



## j-nord (May 24, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> kevl said:
> 
> 
> > Predicting
> ...


Canon bends over backwards to provide minor across the board improvement. The 5DIV will be 7fps. If they keep the m-pix low (24m-pix) maybe 8fps.


----------



## CanonGuy (May 24, 2016)

24MP on a 2016 flagship body?!!!! I sincerely hope they do better than that. 

I rarely need more than 24MP but that doesn't mean I shouldn't have the option. 24MP on 2016 is just lame.


----------



## ahsanford (May 24, 2016)

CanonGuy said:


> 24MP on a 2016 flagship body?!!!! I sincerely hope they do better than that.
> 
> I rarely need more than 24MP but that doesn't mean I shouldn't have the option. 24MP on 2016 is just lame.



The 5D# line never was flagship -- I'd just call it 'professional grade'. It's a balanced rig that is an 8 out of 10 at just about everything. Consider: the 5DS will outresolve it but suffer from a lower framerate and (we assume) a less useable ISO ceiling than the 5D4. 

Nikon is similar -- the D810 is not categorically their top (non-gripped) FF rig. It's highest fps non-gripped FF rig is the _middle_ level D750, while the D810 has what most would argue is a better sensor. Again, there is no single top dog in their tent either.

The only 'flagships' that exist anymore are the gripped 1DX2 and D5 rigs, which are not for everyone for a host of reasons.

- A


----------



## lettherebelight (May 24, 2016)

... and the pixel count and video capability insanity seems to continue. If what many seem to wish for becomes reality I for one would be more disappointed than satisfied What I'd rather like to have is a better still picture-taking machine with outstanding autofocus. Use larger but fewer pixels and give each a higher dynamic range (16+ bit) with better signal to noise performance at higher ISO. This could do away with image stabilization thereby enabling simpler and faster lenses with higher IQ and allow for higher continuous shooting rates before saturating the data bus and hence improve utility for action and low-light photography. Far superior than extracting stills from 4k video. For video, I want a video camera. For stills, I want a still camera.


----------



## ahsanford (May 24, 2016)

lettherebelight said:


> *
> For stills, I want a still camera.*



Righto, there you go. (See below.)

I don't say that to make fun so much as make a point. (I actually agree with you -- I only shoot stills.) But the days of stills-only or stills-comically-higher-priority-than-video cameras really only exist in the odd/outlier places these days -- Medium Format, Leica, film, etc. For everyone else, video is a ground floor expectation.

- A


----------



## tron (May 24, 2016)

Etienne said:


> A 5D4 with an emphasis on video has to have an articulating touch screen! Please!


It is still a camera that shoots ... stills! Video is an addition (That's why it looks like a stills camera and not a video camera by the way :


----------



## tron (May 24, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...


No tilty-flippy and no more resolution please .... It has to a mini 1Dx as much as possible (well apart from the frame rate which by the way please let it be 8fps - although I believe it will be 7fps)


----------



## LhPhoto (May 24, 2016)

What are we thinking about price? any indication as to where this will sit compared to the 5ds/5dr?


----------



## Mikehit (May 24, 2016)

lettherebelight said:


> ... and the pixel count and video capability insanity seems to continue. If what many seem to wish for becomes reality I for one would be more disappointed than satisfied What I'd rather like to have is a better still picture-taking machine with outstanding autofocus. Use larger but fewer pixels and give each a higher dynamic range (16+ bit) with better signal to noise performance at higher ISO. This could do away with image stabilization thereby enabling simpler and faster lenses with higher IQ and allow for higher continuous shooting rates before saturating the data bus and hence improve utility for action and low-light photography. Far superior than extracting stills from 4k video. For video, I want a video camera. For stills, I want a still camera.



If people want higher FPS while maintaining quality, then when do we get to the point where you are shooting video and selecting which frame you want. We are certainly heading in that direction already!


----------



## jeffa4444 (May 24, 2016)

colorblinded said:


> Same battery as the MKIII would be nice. Dual CFast I'd be OK with, but I'd like CFast/CF instead.
> 
> Very curious to see what the resolution and dynamic range parts of the equation will be. Shadow/noise and limited shadow recovery capabilities have been my biggest complaint with my 5D3.
> 
> I'd like to rely less on grad NDs and manual exposure blending. The broad dynamic range capabilities of the sony sensors, with the incredible shadow detail recovery, are too tempting for the kinds of things I shoot. I'd probably like something closer to 30mp, but either way, if Canon can't deliver at least the same resolution we have now with a considerable DR & shadow recovery improvement I may finally start trying to figure out how I would go about switching systems... and I don't want to, I like Canon better.



For stills exposure blending is possible now many do it. If the camera is 4K then likely your still require NDs of the IRND type the human eye can range over 20 stops no camera can do that currently.


----------



## colorblinded (May 24, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> colorblinded said:
> 
> 
> > Same battery as the MKIII would be nice. Dual CFast I'd be OK with, but I'd like CFast/CF instead.
> ...



Of course not, but improvements in sensor technology reduce the number of shots where such techniques are required.

I'm more interested in stills and primarily improved quality at lower ISOs, Canon seems more interested in video and high ISOs. Frustrating to have your preferred brand's interests diverge from your own, I would hope some day we'll see more cameras that can do it all successfully.


----------



## ahsanford (May 24, 2016)

LhPhoto said:


> What are we thinking about price? any indication as to where this will sit compared to the 5ds/5dr?



I don't know why I have $3499 in my head, but I do. I have nothing to back that up other than that was original asking price of the 5D3.

- A


----------



## j-nord (May 24, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> LhPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > What are we thinking about price? any indication as to where this will sit compared to the 5ds/5dr?
> ...


The 1Dxii had a lower starting cost than the mki so I'd expect starting price to be slightly less for the 5DIV than the III. My best guess is $3100-3300.


----------



## ahsanford (May 24, 2016)

j-nord said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > LhPhoto said:
> ...



..and then there's the notion that the 5D4 will sit side by side (prestige-wise, pecking-order-wise) with the 5DS rigs, which came in at $3699/3899 depending on which version you got.

I'm not sure the price will necessarily decline over prior model, especially if it's the only 4K FF SLR on the market when it is announced. 

- A


----------



## bdunbar79 (May 24, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> j-nord said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



Well, it's not the only FF 4K SLR on the market.


----------



## scyrene (May 24, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Based on what they have learned it will be a failed "mirrorslapper" that has somewhere between 20 and 45 mp.; between 3-18 fps, will shoot either 1080 HD, or 4K or 8K or 16K (or might not have any video at all because some people resent "paying" for video); either will or won't have a tilt screen, touch screen, wifi or gps; might have better dynamic range at base ISO; might have DPAF; is likely to have an autofocus system; and will have slots for memory cards.
> ...



Of course not! He slapped them all and they broke.


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 24, 2016)

bdunbar79 said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > j-nord said:
> ...



Wait, are the 1D X II and D5 actually SLRs? Dilbert previously told us the 1D C isn't really a dSLR, so we can leave that one off the list.


----------



## ahsanford (May 24, 2016)

bdunbar79 said:


> Well, it's not the only FF 4K SLR on the market.



Ugh. Thx. 

I meant non-gripped, sub $6k, etc.

i.e. Canon could mark up the 5D4 as the cheapest way to shoot FF stills and 4K on the same rig without leaving the larger CaNikon tent. 

- A


----------



## romanr74 (May 24, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> macVega said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



I particularly disagree with point 4. It makes my camera bulky, more likely to break and ugly like hell...


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 24, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> I don't shoot video at all on my 5D3 and I sure as hell paid for it



Did you? Or did the inclusion of a few features, mostly firmware, expand the market for the camera leading to more projected unit sales and thus a lower planned selling price?


----------



## ahsanford (May 24, 2016)

RickSpringfield said:


> CanonGuy said:
> 
> 
> > 24MP on a 2016 flagship body?!!!! I sincerely hope they do better than that.
> ...



Now compare the 5D3 to the 5D2. It only offered the 1DX AF system (easily its biggest upgrade), +1 more MP, +2 more fps, a headphone jack, a silent shutter, HDR mode and a number of video features I candidly don't understand/appreciate. Other than AF upgrade, that's a fairly modest upgrade over the 5D2 -- you could call the 5D3 the 5D2 v2 using your logic.

_And the 5D3 sold just fine. _Again, 5D3 sales are only presumed based on Amazon top table sales and some circumstantial evidence (we see them everywhere in the field, the body-specific accessory ecosystem for the 5D3 is galactically big, etc.), but I haven't seen any indicators to say it didn't sell well. It has retained its price much better than other Canon SLRs over its lifespan.

- A


----------



## PureClassA (May 24, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > I don't shoot video at all on my 5D3 and I sure as hell paid for it
> ...



Bingo on that one. Picking up a piece of that indie/student film market helps stills folks. The rumored inclusion of 120FPS on the 5D4 will be a welsome feature for me. Though I haven't shot video with a DSLR yet, I will likely put it to use with the dancers I do a lot of stills for. Making a simple promo video is another business outlet for me with them, and having a high speed FPS ability is what has kept from doing it with Canon DSLRs up to this point. My only regret was not having the time this weekend to play with the video on the 1DX2 while I had it.


----------



## Jopa (May 24, 2016)

Please wake me up when it's available for preorder.


----------



## CanonGuy (May 24, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> RickSpringfield said:
> 
> 
> > CanonGuy said:
> ...



No one was on Canon's butt like today when they released 5D iii. The scenario is a little different now. and I'm afraid, if canon stays slow and meh like this for next few years, it might be interesting down the road


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 24, 2016)

CanonGuy said:


> No one was on Canon's butt like today when they released 5D iii. The scenario is a little different now. and I'm afraid, if canon stays slow and meh like this for next few years, it might be interesting down the road



When the 5DIII came out, Canon had a smaller lead over Nikon in market share – Nikon has lost a bit since then, especially recently. Sony has gained slightly since then, but still has a very small share of the ILC market relative to Canon. Canon's market share has _increased_. Do facts offend you to the point that you ignore them, or have you two simply never been properly introduced?

YAPODFC. :


----------



## ahsanford (May 24, 2016)

CanonGuy said:


> No one was on Canon's butt like today when they released 5D iii. The scenario is a little different now. and I'm afraid, if canon stays slow and meh like this for next few years, it might be interesting down the road



Again, "on Canon's butt" would imply that they've lost market share. They haven't.

Perhaps -- _just perhaps_ -- Canon has some market research that says that their users in this market class of an all-around camera *favor DR/Higher ISO performance over resolution*. 

Consider: the Nikon D750 was met with an unqualified 'Hallelujah!' from working photographers who were stuck between a 12 MP D700, an feature-underweight/enthusiast D600 and a pricey/overkill 36 MP D800 option. The 'porridge was just right' with that camera -- shockingly, not unlike a 5D3.

I'm not saying that Canon will stay at 22-24 MP forever in this do-everything class of camera -- I just think that they (correctly) think that users at this point in time would rather have more DR & better high ISO performance than a little more detail.

- A


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (May 25, 2016)

lettherebelight said:


> ... and the pixel count and video capability insanity seems to continue. If what many seem to wish for becomes reality I for one would be more disappointed than satisfied What I'd rather like to have is a better still picture-taking machine with outstanding autofocus. Use larger but fewer pixels and give each a higher dynamic range (16+ bit) with better signal to noise performance at higher ISO. This could do away with image stabilization thereby enabling simpler and faster lenses with higher IQ and allow for higher continuous shooting rates before saturating the data bus and hence improve utility for action and low-light photography. Far superior than extracting stills from 4k video. For video, I want a video camera. For stills, I want a still camera.



Going to lower MP won't help DR at all.

Only a very large difference n MP would make much of a noticeable difference at all for SNR and if they went full BSI, etc. than a reallly large difference.

The current cameras are already so good when it comes to SNR there isn't enough room left in physics to improve enough to make up for IS (and even if it got 3 stops better, why not take yet another 3 from IS?).

Personally I like video with the stills, costs way less than having to buy both and it's a lot less to lug around. Of course not everyone will care.


----------



## unfocused (May 25, 2016)

RickSpringfield said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > CanonGuy said:
> ...



Amazon best sellers as of 9:24 p.m. May 24, 2016: *Canon 5D III No. 6; Nikon D810 No. 32. *If you have better numbers than those, please share. For probably close to two years, the 6D was the number one full frame sales leader on Amazon. Interestingly, in the past six months or so the 5DIII has overtaken the 6D. Not bad for a four-year-old camera. 



RickSpringfield said:


> To A's point perhaps the 5D3 was an incremental upgrade of the 5D2 but there was room to refine the 5D2. Even then I remember people commenting that the IQ of the 5D3 was worse that the 5D2 (noise or something).



Selective memory. *I remember* a lot of wedding and event photographers proudly posting pictures on this forum taken with the 5DIII at high ISO and remarking about how incredible it was that they could take pictures in existing light and enlarge them to presentation sizes with no noise. 


"Incremental upgrade" is in the eyes of the beholder. Prior to the release of the 5DIII, the big debate of the day was over the autofocus of the 5DII, with much wailing and whining when the 7D came out and had a significantly better autofocus.


----------



## unfocused (May 25, 2016)

RickSpringfield said:


> I've not looked at Amazon for numbers before ... Thought this was interesting "The Amazon Best Sellers calculation is based on Amazon.com sales and is updated hourly to reflect recent and historical sales of every item sold on Amazon.com."
> 
> Does that mean that sales of the 5D3 prior to the launch of the D810 and 5DS/R are considered?



If it is like most surveys they set a specific time period and then roll data in the front end and out the back end so that it is current, but does not swing wildly in response to a single event. It's the same technique used by major political campaigns (not the unreliable news media polls, but the ones the campaigns are actually paying for themselves). 

In a political campaign you may pick a three-day rolling sample, go in the field every night and then each day you dump the data that is three days old and add in the newest data. It's a way to assure that your poll is accurate over time and isn't skewed by a single day's headlines. 

I imagine Amazon guards it's specific criteria carefully, but I would expect they do something similar. 

B&H has started doing something similar. Their "hot items/best sellers" places the 5DIII at number one. They only list the top 10. The D810 isn't on the list. Sony has a cyber shot in the No. 10 slot. Canon has the top five. Nikon's D7100 is No. 6. 

This is something I've noticed over time. The best-selling cameras are often not the newest models. For years, the T3i was the number one seller on Amazon, long after much newer models had been released. We forget that only the handful of people who populate this forum tend to feel the need to acquire the newest models.

If you are desperate to find data that you think will prove a point, you can take some solace in knowing that at the end of 2015, Adorama did a blog post that included their top four highest selling professional DSLRs. The D750 was No. 1; the 6D was No. 2, the D810 was No. 3 and the 5DIII was No. 4.


----------



## Machaon (May 25, 2016)

RGF said:


> when the camera is being tested in the field, does that mean the hardware is basically done? That only the firmware is being tweeted?
> 
> Or can the camera be sent back to the design labs like the 200-400 was?



I'd say that the hardware is probably starting to roll off the assembly lines right now, to build up a pre-release inventory. I'd be surprised if anything but firmware could be modified in the short term. 

Having said that, a large proportion of functionality is defined in software nowadays...


----------



## Mikehit (May 25, 2016)

RickSpringfield said:


> As stated in this thread and others like it the 5D III is so very capable ..... Its going to take WOW factor to get new people to jump in, and it sounds like it'll also take WOW factor to get 5D3 owners to switch.
> 
> Big New Features, Best at most things, and a very competitive sticker price... that would be a winning combo.



Well many are saying that there are no 'wow!' factors in the 1Dx2 over the 1Dx yet the accumulation of changes seem to have people moving over to the new model. 
And one thing that the amateur market has over the professional market is the kudos of owning the latest and greatest. 

But the biggest point is that the 5D4 is less about people selling the 5D3 to get the 5D4 but keeping the owners of xxD and 7D in the Canon fold and not have them jumping ship because Canon are seen to be falling behind.


----------



## romanr74 (May 25, 2016)

I dont really understand why people always reduce the upgrades represented in the 5D mkIII over the 5D mkII to the extra 1 MP. In my opinion the mkIII is much more camera than the mk II. This starts when you take the camera in your hands and includes upgrades like the following (from www.imaging-resource.com, www.photographylife.com, terrible memory):

- 41 vs. 9 cross-type AF pionts
- 0.12 vs 0.21 sec shutter lag
- Dual Card slots
- 61 vs 15 AF points (the AF of the mkII was crap)
- 60p and 24p vid
- 6.0 vs. 3.9 FPS 
- 18 shots vs. 11 shots buffer
- 25600 vs. 6400 native ISO
- 100% viewfinder coverage
- Dual card slots (while I'd prefer dual CF over CF/SD
- Improved flash system 
- Stronger build
- Bigger and improved LCD screen

I must have forgotten many...


----------



## Tugela (May 25, 2016)

Highly unlikely that it is going to have superior hardware relative to the 1DXII, otherwise what would be the point of that camera? The 1DXII had dual Digic 6 processors using mjpeg for its 4K. The C300II uses dual Digic DV5 processors for its 4K (these are the video equivalents of the Digic 7), while the XC10 uses a single DV5. They need fans, and CFast slots for 4K (actually, these are not necessary, since UHS-II cards are quite capable of handling the bit rates used). 

So I am not really seeing a 5D4 handling 4K in anything approaching competitive level. The Digic 7 will not outcompete it's video sibling for video, and going beyond that you would be in 1DXII territory, which would put a question marks on that cameras viability.

It is possible that a 5D4 might be able to shoot 4K in some limited form, but I suspect that video people will be disappointed by whatever it puts out. In the end hardware will determine what it can do, and we already know the limitations of the hardware available to Canon.


----------



## scyrene (May 25, 2016)

CanonGuy said:


> 24MP on a 2016 flagship body?!!!! I sincerely hope they do better than that.
> 
> I rarely need more than 24MP but that doesn't mean I shouldn't have the option. 24MP on 2016 is just lame.



OMG the 1DxII is only 20MP! And so is the D5! They are so lame :


----------



## scyrene (May 25, 2016)

colorblinded said:


> Although the flawed argument of "look, plenty are successfully using Canon, so it's not needed" will continue to be parroted, I hope to see Canon try to compete more with their sensors. In the long run, it's better for all of us, and better for Canon's viability in to the future. If they do start to slip in the market, new sensor technologies aren't going to hurt to have and better to be ready with them than caught even further behind technologically. Competition is good, but it hasn't really felt like Canon has been putting all their effort behind things when I look at their fear of having products overlap (potentially deliberately neutering some of them), and their slow pace of sensor advancement. Complacency is common when you're at the top, although I wouldn't say that extends to Canon's glass. Damn fine lenses they're putting out!



Mostly your post is reasonable, but I think your 'they need to compete' is at least as flawed as 'they don't need to innovate more because they're successful'. Companies compete for money - for customers, for sales - not for the opinions of internet forum users, or even reviews (so long as sales hold up). They can do this in a number of ways. One is roughly the Sony model - throw lots of money at it, being out substantially different models with new features quite quickly, and hope to force your way into the market, and one is the Canon model - only add new features a little at a time, because innovation is expensive and doesn't always bring financial benefits. Neither is *wrong*, but one company sells a lot more cameras than the other (and the other sells a lot more sensors).


----------



## scyrene (May 25, 2016)

colorblinded said:


> Canon seems more interested in video and high ISOs.



What about the most recent cameras they've released? The 1DxII in particular seems to have (by all accounts) increased low ISO DR which may have cost it high ISO improvements (while the D5 has done the opposite).


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 25, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> I dont really understand why people always reduce the upgrades represented in the 5D mkIII over the 5D mkII to the extra 1 MP.



Apparently there are a few people on these forums who have the ability to take pictures with only a small piece of silicon, and those plastic and metal bits around it are merely there to keep fingerprints off the imaging surface. So for them, sensor = camera.


----------



## ahsanford (May 25, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> I dont really understand why people always reduce the upgrades represented in the 5D mkIII over the 5D mkII to the extra 1 MP. In my opinion the mkIII is much more camera than the mk II. This starts when you take the camera in your hands and includes upgrades like the following (from www.imaging-resource.com, www.photographylife.com, terrible memory):
> 
> [truncated]
> I must have forgotten many...



I don't shoot video, but for stills shooters the AF system was worth the upgrade alone. That was easily the 5D3's biggest upgrade, followed (IMHO) by the silent shutter. 

- A


----------



## Ripley (May 25, 2016)

For God's sake Canon, please vindicate our patience with the 5D IV. If not, I might be gone when the A7R III arrives...


----------



## ahsanford (May 25, 2016)

dilbert said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > What about the most recent cameras they've released? The 1DxII in particular seems to have (by all accounts) increased low ISO DR which may have cost it high ISO improvements (while the D5 has done the opposite).
> ...



Dilbert -- I hadn't thought of that. DXO is famous for punishing companies' products for offering something they don't necessarily have to. The 35L II famously was listed as being less sharp (on aggregate) than the Sigma 35 Art _because the Canon stops down to f/22 while the Sigma only stops down to f/16_. :

Along those same lines, one wonders how DXO's absurd black box transfer function scoring system punished Nikon for the D5's 3.2M ISO claims, which renders all images into murky chromatic turdstorms.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (May 25, 2016)

Ripley said:


> For God's sake Canon, please vindicate our patience with the 5D IV. If not, I might be gone when the A7R III arrives...



Just curious, do you honestly think it will be a breakthrough / revolutionary product? 

At this stage, Canon are nation-builders, not mountain climbers. They consistently make hiqh quality products with modest incremental improvements that sprinkle in really useful tech that other lines will adopt someday. _So I'd argue that you don't need to wait to know what's coming*_. 

I fully expect a fairly vanilla spec sheet (that we've all been talking about) plus a secret-sauce sort of surprise new tech that you are not expecting (a la DPAF, anti-flicker, etc.). If that isn't enough to sate your lust for new/hot/gamechanging/best things, stop waiting. You might want to buy something else that will give you the tech endorphins you crave.

- A

* Unless what you are waiting for is a DXO sensor score. Go buy a Sony right now if _that_ is the euphoria you crave.


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 25, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Along those same lines, one wonders how DXO's absurd black box transfer function scoring system punished Nikon for the D5's 3.2M ISO claims, which renders all images into murky chromatic turdstorms.



It doesn't. The Biased Score metric comprises three factors: DR at base ISO, color depth at base ISO, and the ISO at which a fixed SNR threshold is reached. So, an astronomical ISO will not impact the scoring. 

However, they do not provide the relative weightings for those three factors, nor do they provide assurances that those weightings are kept constant for all sensors tested.


----------



## ahsanford (May 25, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Along those same lines, one wonders how DXO's absurd black box transfer function scoring system punished Nikon for the D5's 3.2M ISO claims, which renders all images into murky chromatic turdstorms.
> ...



So they are only _mostly_ insane on sensors vs. _completely_ insane on lenses. Got it, thx.

- A


----------



## bdunbar79 (May 25, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Along those same lines, one wonders how DXO's absurd black box transfer function scoring system punished Nikon for the D5's 3.2M ISO claims, which renders all images into murky chromatic turdstorms.
> ...



So you mean it's not scientific? Not in the least bit? But, but...I...wanna...believe...


----------



## ahsanford (May 25, 2016)

bdunbar79 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



Using their own goofy metrics, the D5 was arguably no improvement (sensor-wise) over the D4S (it lost a stop of dynamic range at base ISO) and a 2 year old D810 outclassed it in all three of their summary metrics, yet DXO still had the nerve to call it "a worthy successor".

#dxo #fairandbalanced

- A


----------



## Mr. Milo (May 25, 2016)

Tugela said:


> So I am not really seeing a 5D4 handling 4K in anything approaching competitive level. The Digic 7 will not outcompete it's video sibling for video, and going beyond that you would be in 1DXII territory, which would put a question marks on that cameras viability.
> 
> It is possible that a 5D4 might be able to shoot 4K in some limited form, but I suspect that video people will be disappointed by whatever it puts out.



Thought it was Photographers who will be disappointed. Read somewhere that Canon is prepping this more on the Videographer side. Besides, the 5DS R exists.

5D4 "might" shoot 4K in limited form? It's confirmed that it films 4K. What do you mean limited? Like Nikon 4K, 3 minute limit? If it does, the 5D4 is a massive disappointment after waiting 4 years. I don't think Canon is going to do that.

Not many people knew about 4K picture grab and 4K DCI in Canon 1DX Mark II. We'll just have to wait and see before killing people's expectations on this camera.


----------



## tron (May 25, 2016)

Mr. Milo said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > So I am not really seeing a 5D4 handling 4K in anything approaching competitive level. The Digic 7 will not outcompete it's video sibling for video, and going beyond that you would be in 1DXII territory, which would put a question marks on that cameras viability.
> ...


Maybe limited meant not 60fps at 4K


----------



## ahsanford (May 25, 2016)

Mr. Milo said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > So I am not really seeing a 5D4 handling 4K in anything approaching competitive level. The Digic 7 will not outcompete it's video sibling for video, and going beyond that you would be in 1DXII territory, which would put a question marks on that cameras viability.
> ...



The 5D4 will certainly have some sort of feature / benefit for stills users that the 1DX2 does not. For instance, the 5D3 had a higher resolution than the 1DX, and it also had a silent shutter that the 1DX did not. So I expect the 5D4 will have a stills feature that might be left out of the 1DX2. They sky will not fall and the price of the 1DX2 will not plummet as a result -- Canon will wisely pick what this feature might be to prevent this.

Now repeat the entire exercise above for *video*. _Same thing could happen._ The idea that a single video feature the 5D4 receives that the 1DX2 does not 'ruins 1DX2 sales' is explosively unlikely because Canon likes making money. It's not like they'll give the 5D4 8K or fundamentally higher quality output or anything -- it might just be an innovate way to attach a microphone or monitor, a different coding format, etc.

- A


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 25, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> The idea that a single video feature the 5D4 receives that the 1DX2 does not 'ruins 1DX2 sales' is explosively unlikely because Canon likes making money.



Is Magic Lantern a feature?


----------



## Ozarker (May 25, 2016)

Dekaner said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > fentiger said:
> ...



Nawwww. It will be 10FPS + CF/ Cfast or dual CF. "Probably some other differences as well." Very insightful. :


----------



## Ozarker (May 25, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> fentiger said:
> 
> 
> > can not see the 5D4 trumping the 1D2 on too many things, some thing has to give, my question is what?
> ...



Actually, the 70D gave us DPAF.


----------



## Ozarker (May 25, 2016)

unfocused said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > It really miffs me that we are not informed of a cutoff date for posting our personal spec selections before they finalize a product.
> ...



Yes, this website is heavily influencing Canon's business decisions. They fear putting out a machine not demanded by every Tom, Dick, and Harry posting demands here. :


----------



## Ozarker (May 25, 2016)

Diltiazem said:


> fallsong said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



This was the conversation between the OP and the "source": "Psst... Hey bud, come here. The 5D IV/X is gonna have 28mp with poor shadow noise."

"Seriously? What else?"

"I won't tell you. Just wanted you to have a taste. Just know it has been in the field and being tested for four months. It's gonna suck, see. Suck I tell ya! Mums the word...err, I mean Sony. Now get away from me kid, you're bothering me."


----------



## Ozarker (May 25, 2016)

Chaitanya said:


> ...Canon always castrates their cameras to protect "High-end" products.



No they don't. That is a complete myth. 

Lots of lower end models get better and more useful features than the flagship or the 5 series or the example between 7D, 70D, 7DII. There's a lot more tech trickling up than trickling down. The 1D series is not the big profit center people think it is.


----------



## unfocused (May 25, 2016)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Chaitanya said:
> 
> 
> > ...Canon always castrates their cameras to protect "High-end" products.
> ...



I get really tired of these claims of "crippling" or in this case "castration" (ouch! -- although if cameras could breed it would be quite something.) 

Just what is it that people fail to understand about product differentiation? Of course, one model is not going to have all the features of the more expensive model. To expect that is just silliness. Oh wait...I forgot...these features are free and don't cost anything to add, so Canon is just being greedy by not including every feature on every body.


----------



## pierlux (May 25, 2016)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Diltiazem said:
> 
> 
> > fallsong said:
> ...



A Canon Explorer of Light told me the EOS 5D Mark IV will bring the Direct Print Button back again. It won't be customizable, it will only do direct print. It will be bigger than the others, and backlit. Now that's THE FEATURE, the one which will seriously hurt the 1DX II sales. Yay! Who cares about shadow noise, DR, MP, FPS, 4K and all... we'll have a dedicated Direct Print Button again! 8)


----------



## privatebydesign (May 25, 2016)

pierlux said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Diltiazem said:
> ...



I print direct from my 1Ds MkIII's, it is a very strong feature and much more capable than most give it time for. I use battery powered Canon Selpy CP printers when shooting travel images so I can give people an actual photograph of themselves.


----------



## Guillaume GLEIZE (May 25, 2016)

I know! I know! Mp is not everything!
But for personal use (& reasons) if the 5D4 is under 28Mp: I will go with the 5Dsr 
(but would prefer a general camera 5D4 with 28Mp and some other qualities)

PS: By the way, is it definitively 5D4 or may we discover a 5DX?


----------



## pierlux (May 26, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> I print direct from my 1Ds MkIII's, it is a very strong feature and much more capable than most give it time for. I use battery powered Canon Selpy CP printers when shooting travel images so I can give people an actual photograph of themselves.



I know, some like this feature. Not many, but to someone it's useful. Mine was a semi-serious/semi-sarcastic comment. But, what about removing the card and inserting it in a card reader or straight into the printer? Wouldn't it be more convenient? I admit I don't remember if the old Selphys have a display, but the current ones have it.


----------



## ahsanford (May 26, 2016)

Guillaume GLEIZE said:


> I know! I know! Mp is not everything!
> But for personal use (& reasons) if the 5D4 is under 28Mp: I will go with the 5Dsr
> (but would prefer a general camera 5D4 with 28Mp and some other qualities)
> 
> PS: By the way, is it definitively 5D4 or may we discover a 5DX?



You never know until they announce, but the CR admin posted that the rumors seem to indicate 5D4 will indeed be the name and not 5DX.

- A


----------



## romanr74 (May 26, 2016)

Ripley said:


> For God's sake Canon, please vindicate our patience with the 5D IV. If not, I might be gone when the A7R III arrives...



Don't forget to change your avatar once you do that...


----------



## koenkooi (May 26, 2016)

unfocused said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Chaitanya said:
> ...



I agree with you for hardware features, but for software features, not so much. Does not having AEB on every model save Canon that much money? Or the builtin intervalometer the 7d2 has? Or not being able to change the shutter/aperture ratio in P mode using the wheel?


----------



## romanr74 (May 26, 2016)

koenkooi said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > CanonFanBoy said:
> ...



They certainly DO want to differentiate their products, also on software features. There are products that are solely differntiated through software features. So nothing to do with costs necessarily, certainly not classical "manufacturing costs".


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## kevl (May 26, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> koenkooi said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with you for hardware features, but for software features, not so much. Does not having AEB on every model save Canon that much money? Or the builtin intervalometer the 7d2 has? Or not being able to change the shutter/aperture ratio in P mode using the wheel?
> ...



There are many things to consider. 

The hardware in the various bodies may look similar but it is not the same. Each component needs to be conceived, designed, tested, tweaked, produced, and then supported for a significant period of time. You can't take a mainboard from a 1DX and put it in a 5D3. There may be some components which are the same but the vast majority of them are distinct to each model. 

The same goes for software. While I am confident the code is similar it has to be coded for, tested on, and supported for completely different hardware. While Canon surely knows how to make AEB work, there is significant cost involved in developing it for new hardware in every body they produce. 

The long term support of features & hardware cannot be ignored. Not only does Canon have to produce the bodies they are going to sell, they have to produce, store, and maintain enough parts to support the fleet of bodies for the next 10 years. 

Then there is documentation and customer support including training support staff on each feature on each body... 

There is a multitude of extra costs added for every feature that a manufacturer puts into each body, "just software" or not.


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## LoneRider (May 26, 2016)

kevl said:


> The hardware in the various bodies may look similar but it is not the same. Each component needs to be conceived, designed, tested, tweaked, produced, and then supported for a significant period of time. You can't take a mainboard from a 1DX and put it in a 5D3. There may be some components which are the same but the vast majority of them are distinct to each model.
> 
> The same goes for software. While I am confident the code is similar it has to be coded for, tested on, and supported for completely different hardware. While Canon surely knows how to make AEB work, there is significant cost involved in developing it for new hardware in every body they produce.
> 
> ...



If the job is done correctly, then many of these aspects can be placed modules, black boxes as you will. Just as 99% of Windows does not have to be retested on my Dell laptop as your Acer desktop. *IF* Canon has architected their systems correctly, much of the software, and a reasonable amount of the hardware can flow between various models.

It is the ID, the mechanical bits that change. I would suspect the only thing the same between the mirror sub-system between the 80D and the 1DX-ii, is well, they both have mirrors. But yet the firmware that controls the mirrors is probably vastly the same, except for constants.

The best example that I know is Microchip processors, the PIC line of system on chips that are all over the place. Last count, over all of their different processors, they had 3 different ADC converts, 2 or 3 UARTs, and for each SOC, they pick the correct ADC or UART for the part, how many of each, and then place them on the die. Canon should be able to do the same with their firmware.

Again, Industrial Design/Mechanical will change from model to model, but still, concepts will be similar. And some components, like the detent system for function wheels would be the same from model to model.



romanr74 said:


> They certainly DO want to differentiate their products, also on software features. There are products that are solely differntiated through software features. So nothing to do with costs necessarily, certainly not classical "manufacturing costs".



I think what you are going to find, especially since so many of the features are firmware based, between cameras in Canon, you will either have a GPS chip put in or not. But, other than mechanical considerations (ie. where does the antenna go) and marketing considerations, the R&D penalty for adding GPS to a camera, should be, at this point, nothing to Canon.

The marketing department should be able to dial up a camera product spec (with-in known limits) and product development will deliver. The envelope of those current limits is displayed in the 1DX-ii, 80D and 7D-ii.

Let's let that sink in. Their current envelope is the 1DX-ii, 80D, and 7D-ii. I guess I should add, that 120MP beast their showing off. What else do they have lying around??

So, my guess is, the 5Div, has to be a holly grail, wedding monster, that cements Canon as the DSLR to go to. It is the bread and butter. They want to keep dip-sh*ts like me away from Nikon and Sony, and ensure they don't have any defections.

So, for guys like me, they add in GPS and WIFI, maybe show us some 8FPS love, maybe 10 in live view. Drop in full sensor width 4K/60fps, 1K/120fps, anti-flicker, class leading AF, and so on.

The only thing they don't have on the shelf (from the 1DX-ii to 80D) is the full width 4K/60fps. And whoaah, the DIGIC 7 is now out. It is very possible, the DIGIC 7 was not going to be available just in time for the 1DX-ii, but is for the 5D-iv? Who here knows at this point?

But the DIGIC 7 is now out in large quantity, obviously, does it have that scaling engine to pipe to create the full sensor width 4K??

I would also suggest, the 6D and 5DS might be the only 2 big boy DSLRs that do not get DPAF, and you may see the 6D-ii slot in at the 30-36MP, and the 5DS-ii come in around 55-70MP. 

So the portrait/landscapers will have midrange (6D-ii) and topend (5DS-ii) to chose from. Where the jack of all will have the 5D-iv (24-28MP), with DPAF.

Anyway, from all that I have learned from the forums, and my own product development knowledge, that is the way I see it. And one thing for certain, all of the mechanical work is complete, all of the molds are done, all of the semiconductors are on production lines, the mirror mechanism is in mass production, the design is complete.


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## tron (May 26, 2016)

LoneRider said:


> ...
> 
> If the job is done correctly, then many of these aspects can be placed modules, black boxes as you will. Just as 99% of Windows does not have to be retested on my Dell laptop as your Acer desktop. *IF* Canon has architected their systems correctly, much of the software, and a reasonable amount of the hardware can flow between various models.
> ...


+1 Even Magic Lantern proves your point.


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## Ripley (May 28, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> Ripley said:
> 
> 
> > For God's sake Canon, please vindicate our patience with the 5D IV. If not, I might be gone when the A7R III arrives...
> ...



Thanks for the reminder. It seems a little dated, doesn't it?


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## Ripley (May 28, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Ripley said:
> 
> 
> > For God's sake Canon, please vindicate our patience with the 5D IV. If not, I might be gone when the A7R III arrives...
> ...



To answer your question - no. But, thank you for the irrelevant response anyways.


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## Orangutan (May 28, 2016)

Ripley said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Ripley said:
> ...


How was it irrelevant? ahansford was pointing out that we have a pretty good idea what the 5D4 will be based on past behavior. It will probably be an incrementally-improved 5D3, with sensor tech borrowed from the 80D and 1DX2.

Question to you: what, exactly, do you hope to see dread will be absent in the 5D4, that you expect to see in the next Sony?


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## ahsanford (May 28, 2016)

Ripley said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Ripley said:
> ...



So, recapping of the rest of us:
_
You: "I have been waiting a long time for an unspecified reason. Canon had better deliver what I am waiting for that I have not shared with anyone. If I don't get what I have been waiting for (that I have not told you), I may bolt to Sony. In summary: Anger. Frustration. Mystery. Proclamation. That is all."

Me: "Um, okay. What exactly are you waiting for? We have a pretty good idea what the 5D4 will be. Are those specs good enough for you?"

You: "I'm too busy waiting to be vindicated to share what I am waiting for."_

It's called a 'discussion forum', not a 'shout at the world and walk away from it' space.

- A

#manners?


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## neuroanatomist (May 28, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> It's called a 'discussion forum', not a 'shout at the world and walk away from it' space.



Well, that seems to be Ripley's attitude...believe it or not. ;D


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## Ripley (May 29, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> Ripley said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



It was irrelevant because I'm not looking for a _breakthrough / revolutionary product to satiate my lust for new/hot/gamechanging/best things that will give me the tech endorphins I crave._ :

I don't dread anything being absent from the 5D4. What A7 feature would one not want in a 5D?


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## Orangutan (May 29, 2016)

Ripley said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > How was it irrelevant? ahansford was pointing out that we have a pretty good idea what the 5D4 will be based on past behavior. It will probably be an incrementally-improved 5D3, with sensor tech borrowed from the 80D and 1DX2.
> ...



I'm afraid that doesn't clarify very much. About the only thing the A7 has that's absent in the 5D3 is the Sony sensor; is that what you want in the 5D4? It would be nice to have some LV features like zebras and focus peaking, but aside from that, doesn't the 5D3 kick the tar out of the A7 series? The reports I hear from the A7 are that it works great as a landscape camera, but is not quite ready for general use. There have also been many reports of QA problems, slow service, inadequate function with Canon lenses, etc.

About the only thing I'd want out of the A7 in a 5D4 is the sensor. Have I missed something?


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## ahsanford (May 29, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> Ripley said:
> 
> 
> > It was irrelevant because I'm not looking for a _breakthrough / revolutionary product to satiate my lust for new/hot/gamechanging/best things that will give me the tech endorphins I crave._ :
> ...



+1. 

I'd also enjoy a crack at the A7 app ecosystem. That will be useful someday if developers get behind it. 

But Orangutan is spot on otherwise.

- A


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## Ripley (May 29, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > Ripley said:
> ...



Sensor stabilization would be great. I have a 50mm Art and a 24-70L II that I would love to use for hand-held video.


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## Orangutan (May 29, 2016)

Ripley said:


> Sensor stabilization would be great. I have a 50mm Art and a 24-70L II that I would love to use for hand-held video.


I guess that's a fair point. I don't know anything about video, so I'm not sure how much stabilization will help for video at those focal lengths. You might be better off with a steady-cam mount of some kind.


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## brad-man (May 29, 2016)

I'll be curious to see whether the weather sealing bar has been raised by the 7D2. Since both bodies are (will be) so similar, it stands to reason that the 5D4 should get the full gasket treatment as well. As I live in S Fl, this is rather important to me. I haven't yet been caught in a deluge with my 6D, but the odds are good that it will happen sometime.


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## Ozarker (May 30, 2016)

unfocused said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Chaitanya said:
> ...



They think that the higher the camera price the higher the profits made compared to other model lines ... so Canon has to protect those higher end models by "crippling" the lower end cameras.

And yup, they think there should be no product differentiation. They hate that they actually have to choose what they want to buy. Then they want the product for next to nothing. Sort of reminds me of this old Wendy's commercial from the cold war era. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reRKwriprYw

I have no idea why I remember that commercial.

They have no idea or understanding of volume sales. They also erroneously believe that new tech is always trickling down the line. 

Whatever is Canon's biggest profit center, it sure ain't the 1dX mark II or the 5D line.


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## ahsanford (May 30, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> Ripley said:
> 
> 
> > Sensor stabilization would be great. I have a 50mm Art and a 24-70L II that I would love to use for hand-held video.
> ...



I am a stills-only guy, but every video review I see from CameraStoreTV or DigitalRev has a brief video review included. I've never seen IBIS shine as well as lens IS does with video. 

That's no knock on IBIS -- it absolutely helps and it works on every lens (including ancient ones). I just don't think it gets the job done like lens IS does.

- A


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## rrcphoto (Jun 2, 2016)

koenkooi said:


> I agree with you for hardware features, but for software features, not so much. Does not having AEB on every model save Canon that much money?



canon has AEB on every single DSLR camera model.

Nikon doesn't.

Fail?

I do love it when canon is always the one that gets accused of this .. and Nikon gets a free ride.


Mirror Lockup is another that nikon doesn't put in .. supposedly because of the mirror motor drives the shutter or something.


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## mmeerdam (Jun 2, 2016)

How about the 32MP rumours? IMHO 32 -36MP is the butterzone right now in versatility, speed and IQ. I can shoot a little wide (for different media usage) and still keep resolution up. I'm currently at 42MP with the sony and it's wonderful iq wise but honestly not that much beter than a D810. Almost all of Nikons glass just isn't up to scratch compared to Canon's. 
I would die for a canon 32-36MP with the awesome 24-70L2, 70-200L2, 35L2,and probably upcoming new 50L2 and 85L2. It would make the perfect allround and specialist camera and would be a very very future proof total investment to probably 100MP.
Nikon can up their MP with a d820/d900 but their lenses will be their bottleneck, most don't resolve above 25MP, even their newest 24-70. Canon would be in a killer position for coming years with a 32-36 5DV with mid res mode at 24mp.
Canon 5DIV would be D810 with comparable DR but better AF, better glass, better video, better usablility and be a better futureproof investment because of the better mount compatibility with film and upcoming canon mirrorless offerings.


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## Don Haines (Jun 2, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > Ripley said:
> ...


Having shot systems with IBIS and other systems with IS, my impression is that IBIS seems to work better on wider focal lengths, while IS seems to work better on longer focal lengths.... This is not a scientific test, just a general feeling.....


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## koenkooi (Jun 2, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> koenkooi said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with you for hardware features, but for software features, not so much. Does not having AEB on every model save Canon that much money?
> ...



But not on every EOS model, the EOS M10 lacks AEB. The original M does have it.


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## rrcphoto (Jun 2, 2016)

koenkooi said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > koenkooi said:
> ...



*rolls eyes*

it's an extremely dumbed down camera.

some times features are removed not because of "cost" but because of end user complexity.

but is there a cost? sure. there's manuals to write, translations,etc.

however with anything. the less options, the change of screwing something up, the less chance of getting something wrong, the less bewildering the menus.

and again, Nikon culled AEB out of their lower end over 10 years ago.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 2, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> however with anything. the less options, the change of screwing something up, the less chance of getting something wrong, the less bewildering the menus.



A friend of mine had a Rebel that he used only in green square, then decided to by a used 5DII. After using it for a couple months, he brought me the camera and asked why from day 1 he always had to press the shutter button twice to take a picture. I explained mirror lockup and showed him how to turn it off. 

Sometimes dumbed down is a good thing.


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## AlanF (Jun 2, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Orangutan said:
> ...



Don, that has indeed been the consensus of many reviews so you are right.


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## Mikehit (Jun 4, 2016)

AlanF said:


> Don, that has indeed been the consensus of many reviews so you are right.



It is also a reason stated by Canon that they went down the IS route instead of IBIS.
Admittedly the 5-axis IBIS of the Olympus EM range changed the ground rules but it is still broadly right.


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## mmeerdam (Jun 5, 2016)

We accuse canon of being mostly marketing driven. That should give us an idea what needs to be done to sell. 

Canon is always offering just enough of an upgrade to sway as many potential buyers as possible. 
Therefore what would a new 5d4 need for broad appeal?
And also justify a (small) price increase because of a market decline?
The search for the ultimate compromise if you will. 

IMHO:
for 5d3 owners: better af, better dr, for some - a little more Mp to crop
5dsr owners: better speed, better af, better dr in exchange for a small drop in megapixels
all: 4k video, wifi etc, touch screen, better liveview
nikon owners: at least same (ish) dr and resolution, but with better video and liveview options
sony owners: at least same(ish) dr and resolution, comaparable 4k video, hybrid evf/ovf

I would reason a new tech 32-ish mp sensor with 24 mp mode (for daily use), 1dx2 af and 4k video would make it a very tempting upgrade for anyone. 5dsr is still viable option for ultra res seekers. Nikon/Sony users lose a bit of res but get better video and better glass. 
I think Canon is not going to risk losing the megapixel argument in the next couple of years against nikon and sony by sticking at 24.
I just hope they don't argue 28 is enough of an upgrade although it is a 30% increase.
Hybrid evf/ovf would be definitive selling point but i doubt they'll introduce it already.

Result:
Canon will price it around 3500,- (5ds(r) price range), 
Have hordes of 5d3 owners upgrade.
Offer enough res for 5dsr owners to want them to 'downgrade' a bit.
Introduce a 5ds mark ii, with a price increase, in about 1 year and have them upgrade again.

would love to hear your opinions.


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## kaihp (Jun 5, 2016)

mmeerdam said:


> We accuse canon of being mostly marketing driven. That should give us an idea what needs to be done to sell.
> 
> [...]
> I would reason a new tech 32-ish mp sensor with 24 mp mode (for daily use)
> ...



My opinion: very unlikely. As discussed sevral times, a single DIGIC 6+ can do 170-175MP/s. At 32MP, you'd have ~5.5fps and I doubt that Canon want to go down in fps. I see two possibilities:
28MP @ 6fps
24MP @ 7fps

I'm in the fps camp, so I'm cheering for [email protected]


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## LoneRider (Jun 6, 2016)

kaihp said:


> My opinion: very unlikely. As discussed sevral times, a single DIGIC 6+ can do 170-175MP/s. At 32MP, you'd have ~5.5fps and I doubt that Canon want to go down in fps. I see two possibilities:
> 28MP @ 6fps
> 24MP @ 7fps
> 
> I'm in the fps camp, so I'm cheering for [email protected]



But that is assuming 2 things. One, the frame rate of the 1DX-ii is limited by the DIGIC 6+ alone, AND, the 5D-iv is not going to have a DIGIC 7.

There will have to be incremental increases over the 5D-iii, and I'm in the 28MP @7FPS camp with DPAF.

I've written this more than once, but for the middle weight, Sony and Nikon competition, the 6D-ii can come in *without* DPAF at 36MP @4FPS at $2500. Keep the 5D-iv as the jack of all, *king of the wedding/event*, with a fast'ish 7 (maybe 8) FPS, and a *killer quiet 3-4FPS mode*.

We will see, and I'm likely talking out my arse. But the 5D-iv has to be, must be, the king of weddings and events, and have enough differentiation to get Tom, Dick, and Harry's like me to willingly plop down $3500. And there will be Canon users who want ~36MP at a reasonable price, and that is where a 6D-ii can slot in. With the 5DS-ii getting a much better AF, and >50MP.


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## mmeerdam (Jun 6, 2016)

About the frame rate bump:
High frame rates are for the 1 series. Upping 1 frame a sec is a nice spec bump. People who rely on frame rates are fast action shooters or wildlife shooters, most of them are better served with a 1d or a aps-c body. The 5d range has never been about fps. 

28 MP
A 10+ MP bump wil without doubt sell better than a 1fps bump. There's also a brandimage point: canon is losing probably 8 out of 10 - non action or wildlife - high profile shooters who were shooting canon originally to the d800/d810 series. I can't image Canon is comfortable with this from a brand perspective even though for now it probably doesn't affect sales to much. 

Now sony has also joined the game for landscape and portrait, commercial as a tempting high tech/mp option. The 6d2 has to compete with the d750 and the 5d range with the d810. Hence canon can't risk to let the gap in MP get too large when a d810 successor is announced (42MP?).


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## d (Jun 6, 2016)

mmeerdam said:


> ...canon is losing probably 8 out of 10 - non action or wildlife - high profile shooters who were shooting canon originally to the d800/d810 series.



Your guesstimation is wildly, laughably high.


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## mmeerdam (Jun 6, 2016)

d said:


> mmeerdam said:
> 
> 
> > ...canon is losing probably 8 out of 10 - non action or wildlife - high profile shooters who were shooting canon originally to the d800/d810 series.
> ...


I'm quite afraid it's not. Mind you i'm not trolling. I actually like Canon more than i do Nikon.
Note the 'high profile'. The most 'famous'. Those who influence other buyers. Those who can easily afford. Not that this 1% matters in sales much now. It matters in the long run for brand perception.

All photographers of name i've worked with or know have switched. All! And i'm talking a lot top 20 fashion / editorial / lifestyle / commercial shooters here in the Netherlands. I've seen some files pass by in this scene which are still canon though, but it's not much. Less than 8 out of 10 actually. 

Example: Testino switched, as well as a lot of the other world renowned. Can't be a good message.


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## scyrene (Jun 6, 2016)

mmeerdam said:


> d said:
> 
> 
> > mmeerdam said:
> ...



Once again, you do realise anecdote does not constitute good data? Sales figures are never as complete as we'd like, but they paint a different picture (as many here will tell you in more detail).


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 6, 2016)

mmeerdam said:


> All photographers of name i've worked with or know have switched. All! And i'm talking a lot top 20 fashion / editorial / lifestyle / commercial shooters here in the Netherlands.



Do you believe the Netherlands accurately represents the entire world? Also, by '8 out of 10' did you mean 80%, or literally 8 out of the 10 total high-profile non-wildlife/action shooters in your country?


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## koenkooi (Jun 6, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> mmeerdam said:
> 
> 
> > All photographers of name i've worked with or know have switched. All! And i'm talking a lot top 20 fashion / editorial / lifestyle / commercial shooters here in the Netherlands.
> ...



We did have a (in)famous papparazzo leave an online review the EF 1200mm at the store where he bought it, does that count as action shooter?


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## romanr74 (Jun 6, 2016)

I've been told in this forum that my sense for logic is terrible. So it might be the case here. Or are these statements conflicting (or at least not quite the same)?



mmeerdam said:


> ...canon is losing probably 8 out of 10 - non action or wildlife - high profile shooters who were shooting canon originally to the d800/d810 series.





mmeerdam said:


> I've seen some files pass by in this scene which are still canon though, but it's not much. Less than 8 out of 10 actually.


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## unfocused (Jun 6, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> I've been told in this forum that my sense for logic is terrible. So it might be the case here. Or are these statements conflicting (or at least not quite the same)?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That means that the 20% who are shooting with Canon are generating 80% of the images that are actually being used.


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## romanr74 (Jun 6, 2016)

mmeerdam said:


> I would reason a new tech 32-ish mp sensor with 24 mp mode (for daily use)



Why on earthy would you shoot 24 mp everday but want 32 mp for... what actually...?


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## romanr74 (Jun 6, 2016)

unfocused said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > I've been told in this forum that my sense for logic is terrible. So it might be the case here. Or are these statements conflicting (or at least not quite the same)?
> ...



That's what my terrible sense for logic would tell me... But i don't think that's what was meant to be said...


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## d (Jun 6, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



No it makes perfect sense...those remaining Canon shooters are making five-image bracketed sets for each shot, since it's the only way to match the DR of the Nikon's everyone else has switched to...


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## mmeerdam (Jun 6, 2016)

my god, some of you are really focussed on the unimportant part of a discussion. I don't think the netherlands represents the whole world, i'm not saying canon doesn't do well in sales. I'm not trying to prove 8 of 10 canon shooters switched.. Fact is Nikon D810 is a strong competitor. If you don't agree you're just badshit blind. What i'm trying to debate is: What is reasonable to expect. But i'm out of this discussion as it just doesn't amount to any logical debate concerning the topic, just bashing for the sake of disagree.

and yes you're right i meant 2 out of 10 off course.


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## Mikehit (Jun 6, 2016)

No-one is denying people have switched when their main aim is to increase resolution. In fact the switch started happening way before the D8xx came out and was based on noise performance rather than MP count. And I would venture that high ISO is still the main reason for the switch to Nikon. 

But when you come up with statements like:



> canon is losing probably 8 out of 10 - non action or wildlife - high profile shooters who were shooting canon originally to the d800/d810 series. "


It is quite a bold statement and when you support it with your experience in Netherlands expect that to be challenged. So when you use that claim to support your idea of which direction you think Canon should go I think it is reasonable to question the underlying assumption because if they are found to be inaccurate then it calls into question the conclusion - it is called debate.


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## Rejay14 (Jun 7, 2016)

dilbert said:


> LoneRider said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



I've just read this whole thread. I have a 5D3 and a 7D2. I used the 1DX last week, sensor noise was great, shutter noise was awful. Each "photographer" has his/her own requirements for their styles. We shouldn't have to pay for the top-end cameras if what we have suits our needs. My 5D3 may never leave my bag. I have yet to want to smash it on the floor because of it's stupidly-archaic single sensor, because I needed that extra 1/2 stop of DR or because the metering wasn't linked to the AF point. I shot, I adapted, I moved on. I'm not sure why I should have to pay $6000 for a camera that I can make great images with..your point is lost with me.

The 5DS/R's came out, I pondered, I didn't buy. My work requires more low-light/high iso noise-control than MP. Someone will need this, that's why it was invented. If the 5D4 has many of the features that my 7D2 has, awesome. The fact that those features will be on a full-frame with perhaps a few more tweaks: awesomerer .

I think people have to really sit down and think out their reasons for upgrading. When their current gear limits their ability to perform, upgrade. I've never been concerned with DXO/DR/how many picolitres or whatever size my pixels are. If the photos are good, they're good! Look back at Sports Illustrated and see how many spectacular shots were taken with "old/useless" tech contained in the 1D4. Sometimes our G.A.S. invades our logic. I'm guilty of that sometimes. I am currently struggling with the 5D4/1DX2 upgrade question. It won't be answered for a few months, so until then, I'll just keep on using my old tech and making money. 

Canon is in this business to make money. They market to sell. That's it. They don't give a rat's arse if people switch to Nikon. They weren't that invested in Canon anyway. I'd lose tens of thousands to switch, so I won't. Easy decision. I'm not a fanboy either. I just dumped my Canon 50mm for a Sigma ART and am extremely happy. I buy what I need to produce results for my clients. 

As far as dual CFast cards, why would they include this in the 5D4 and not in the 1DX2? They won't.. SD cards limit me sometimes, but I do find that SD Mobi Pro's are great for my real estate/ interior design shoots. I'd love Cfast/CF, but I have no control over that, so I won't worry about it. 

Jeff


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