# *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 4, 2011)

```
<div id="fb_share_1" style="float: right; margin: 0 0px 0 10px;"><a name="fb_share" type="box_count" share_url="http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/11/the-red-dot-eos-dslr/" href="http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php">Share</a></div><div><script src="http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/connect.php/js/FB.Share" type="text/javascript"></script></div><div class="tweetmeme_button" style="float: right; margin-left: 10px;"><a class="tm_button" rel="&style=normal&b=2" href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/11/the-red-dot-eos-dslr/"></a></div>
<strong>*UPDATE 2*

</strong>Well a development DSLR did get announced. Not sure itâ€™ll be the â€œ5D Mark IIIâ€, but it will probably fit in between the 5D3 and 1D X as far as price goes. No timeframe was given by Canon on this one.</p>
<p>I think this may be the first time Canon has announced an â€œin developmentâ€ DSLR.</p>
<p><strong><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/11/concept-cinema-dslr-official/">Read More</a></strong></p>
<p><strong>*UPDATE* May be something, may be nothing Ã‚ *BUSTED* [CR1]

</strong>I was told a while ago about the C300, and a Super35 camera coming down the pipe. It was reported here a few times.</p>
<p>What I was also told, and never posted, was that a Super35 DSLR was also coming. The source initially thought that was what the 1D X was going to be.</p>
<p>Iâ€™ll see if I can find out more tomorrow.</p>
<p><strong>A lot of chatter about a red â€œCâ€

</strong>The Twitter, Facebook and blogging world has become more interested in that EOS DSLR camera with the red â€œCâ€ branding on it, than the C300 itself.</p>
<p><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-7714" title="thereddot" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/thereddot.jpg" alt="" width="600" height="400" /></p>
<p><strong>What is it?!

</strong>There are a few theories about it.</p>
<ol>
<li>Itâ€™s a new DSLR and it will be announced soon. Canon leaked it.</li>
<li>Itâ€™s a 1D X and the logo will appear on the final production camera.</li>
<li>It was added to the slide to show the cohesiveness of the new camera with the existing EOS family.</li>
<li>They want to be more like Leica.</li>
</ol>
<p>My opinion is itâ€™s either #2 or #3. I canâ€™t imagine no one at Canon picked up on the red â€œCâ€ and leaked a new camera. Iâ€™m also of the belief a full EOS-1 sized body would not be where the 5D series heads.</p>
<p>If you look closely at the EOS-1 body and above the red â€œcâ€, youâ€™ll notice there is no branding or model number of any kind. Normally thatâ€™s where â€œEOS-1Dâ€ would appear. If it was a new camera, there would probably be something else visible besides the â€œCâ€.</p>
<p>There will be more to come on this topic Iâ€™m sure. Iâ€™ll let the rest of the worldÃ‚ dissectÃ‚ what it means!</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


----------



## theuserjohnny (Nov 4, 2011)

*Re: The Red Dot EOS DSLR*

It def looks like a 1DX.


----------



## Justin (Nov 4, 2011)

*Re: The Red Dot EOS DSLR*

Very interesting. If the new c300 is a super 35mm sensor then why would Canon put the label on the full frame 1Dx?


----------



## marekjoz (Nov 4, 2011)

*Re: *UPDATE* The Red Dot EOS DSLR*

More info about new FF DSLR: http://www.canon.com/news/2011/nov04e04.html


----------



## alleng (Nov 4, 2011)

*Re: *UPDATE* The Red Dot EOS DSLR*

Also a new video DSLR Full Frame!!!

From a new engadget post

HOLLYWOOD, California, November 3, 2011/TOKYO, November 4, 2011 â€“ Canon Inc. today announced that the company is developing a new-concept EOS-series digital single-lens reflex (SLR) camera. Incorporating an enhanced version of the video-capture capability offered in the current EOS-series lineup, the new camera will be ideally suited for cinematographic and other digital high-resolution production applications. The model will be equipped with a 35 mm full-frame CMOS sensor and, enabling the recording of 4K video* (at a frame rate of 24P, with Motion-JPEG compression), will make possible the type of exceptional image quality and sublime imaging expression to be expected from the next generation of "EOS Movies."

The announcement coincides with the launch of the Cinema EOS System, marking Canon's full-fledged entry into the digital high-resolution production industry. The new professional digital cinematography system spans the lens, digital cinema camera and digital SLR camera product categories.

Further details regarding the new EOS digital SLR camera currently under development, including the product name, specifications and scheduled launch date, have yet to be decided.


----------



## Dave (Nov 4, 2011)

*Re: *UPDATE* The Red Dot EOS DSLR*

http://www.canon.com/news/2011/nov04e04.html?WT.mc_id=C126149


----------



## MacSKY (Nov 4, 2011)

*Re: *UPDATE* The Red Dot EOS DSLR*

Does anyone know if the sample videos shot for this evenings announcement are up on the web yet?


----------



## Zuuyi (Nov 4, 2011)

*Re: *UPDATE* The Red Dot EOS DSLR*

Time for either a 2-4D or for the 5D series to get split in half. I just hope it's coming out soon.


----------



## lenspimp (Nov 4, 2011)

*Re: *UPDATE* The Red Dot EOS DSLR*



Zuuyi said:


> Time for either a 2-4D or for the 5D series to get split in half. I just hope it's coming out soon.



http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/cinemaeos/


----------



## Son of Daguerre (Nov 4, 2011)

*Re: *UPDATE* The Red Dot EOS DSLR*

To those who thought it was an EOS-1D X (myself among their number), I don't think they're wrong.

Remember Canon's "special-edition" (and Ã¼ber-expensive) studio version of the EOS 7D? I think this is the same idea - a modified version of the EOS-1D X (although it will probably be a greater departure from the mainstream EOS-1D X than the Studio Version EOS 7D was to the standard EOS 7D, I think it will be basically the same concept - a video-oriented DSLR _based_ in form and function on the EOS-1D X).


----------



## hmmm (Nov 4, 2011)

*Re: *UPDATE* The Red Dot EOS DSLR*

The 24 mm and 85mm cinema eos lenses are on display here also. With a red ring _AND_ a red mount flange it is a good bet these will have double red-ring prices as well.

So much for the 24,50, and 85 rumore being about replacing the long-in-the-tooth classic EF primes. Hmmfh.


----------



## marekjoz (Nov 4, 2011)

*Re: *UPDATE* The Red Dot EOS DSLR*

Now a lot of people use 2 cameras for difeerent purposes, ie 5dmk2+7d (I have 7d and was waiting to have also 5dmk3 like many others). Does Canon really want us now to have 3 or 4 cameras? ;D
1. FF for studio and landscape, low noise
2. APS-C for sports and nature, fast AF and long tele
3. EOS "C" DSLR FF, compatible with EF lenses, AF working
(maybe also) 4. another cheaper in series EOS "C" super 35mm, compatible also with new cinema zooms, focus manual

I know that for many people EOS movie is not a fun at all but think also that a lot of people waiting for 5dmk3 counted to see improvements in video capabilities as well. Now they have to buy 2 new cameras (instead of one 5dmk3) to have same fun on a new level?


----------



## Axilrod (Nov 4, 2011)

*Re: *UPDATE* The Red Dot EOS DSLR*



MacSKY said:


> Does anyone know if the sample videos shot for this evenings announcement are up on the web yet?



http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/

Looks Sick!


----------



## Axilrod (Nov 4, 2011)

*Re: *UPDATE* The Red Dot EOS DSLR*



MacSKY said:


> Does anyone know if the sample videos shot for this evenings announcement are up on the web yet?



High Res version: http://vimeo.com/30215350


----------



## Edwin Herdman (Nov 4, 2011)

*Re: *UPDATE* The Red Dot EOS DSLR*

I am almost willing to bet it will not be the 1D X. Canon does not spring surprises on themselves, and they have been working long enough on a 4K video system (I believe, though I did not see it in person, that Canon's "complete 4K video system" shown in New York a while back was closer in size to a DSLR than to a camcorder, or at least it was intended to be.)

While it is true that Canon would not have wanted to steal the thunder of this announcement by announcing equal-or-better video marketing bullet points (4K vid) in the 1D X announcement, this is no basis for arguing that the 1D X's "true specification" would not have been announced to avoid it. The 1D X already seems to be at the limit of what is now possible to achieve in a quality system that retains DSLR characteristics - we shouldn't forget that Canon has reached a real and spectacular milestone with the 1D X in sampling video from across the sensor and in reportedly mostly removing video wobble. 4K video will require substantially more power to achieve the same sort of specs.


----------



## dr croubie (Nov 4, 2011)

From here






Whatever it's going to be called, it's the DSLR-with-video as opposed to the video-that-may-take-photos-C300, and currently it's in a 1DX casing (ie look at the DOF-preview buttons around the lensmount). That may change closer to release, although it's probably going to stay in a gripped body if it needs the space for processing power...


----------



## Edwin Herdman (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks for the pic. Agreed that it probably needs the extra space for power (also heat dissipation).

It looks more like a mockup or a finished product than a testing prototype. Interesting that there's that much dust on the casing (pentaprism bump) in a short period - must've been a dusty ride, because I didn't read about anybody being allowed to use or even hold it (aside from Canon officials). Is that true? Could be, as you say, just a 1D X with a new badge slapped on the front.


----------



## jdmitch (Nov 4, 2011)

Is there any informed speculation as to the price point for this one? I have been holding my breath for an update on the 5d mkIII or the 7d, but if this is going to be close to the 1dx around $7k, I might as well get a 60d as a "backup" as it has the same sensor as the 7d, and save up for the new Red camera...


----------



## ianhar (Nov 4, 2011)

It really looks likecanon rushed for this event. Personally, i think that camera there is indeed 1dx. The only difference is the badge on it. Thats why they dont let any one hold it or test it because they rush to this event that the prototype might not be on par to show to the public. They just put the camera there just as a show to all the guest.


----------



## Bob Howland (Nov 4, 2011)

The question is which 4K or is it actually QFHD instead?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution

This could be a 50MP camera, Assuming 4:1 binning, Full Aperture 4K X 4 is 50.1MP, Academy 4K X 4 is 39.0MP, QFHD X4 is a mere 33.2MP and QFHD horizontal resolution X 2 with a 1.5:1 aspect ratio is 39.32MP.

My guess is the last value, but I still want to see if/how Canon handles viewfinder masking. I'm also a little puzzled why they would invent this new cinema body then stick their highest resolution sensor into a DSLR body instead.


----------



## Meh (Nov 4, 2011)

Bob Howland said:


> The question is which 4K or is it actually QFHD instead?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution
> 
> ...



Why do you assume binning? That could be a difference between this new video-DSLR (capable of 4k but still Bayer interpolated) and the C 300 that only outputs 1080p but uses binning to increase image quality.

Assuming no line skipping and no binning, a 4k capture from an approximately APS-H sized crop mode (the press release noted "approximately 80% of the vertical and horizontal) would suggest the sensor is just under 17MP. Given that they said "approximately" it could be the 17.9MP 1DX sensor.


----------



## Axilrod (Nov 4, 2011)

ianhar said:


> It really looks likecanon rushed for this event. Personally, i think that camera there is indeed 1dx. The only difference is the badge on it. Thats why they dont let any one hold it or test it because they rush to this event that the prototype might not be on par to show to the public. They just put the camera there just as a show to all the guest.



I think Canon knows EXACTLY what they are doing. They made a splash in Hollywood to get "cred" with the bigwigs and establish themselves as a new, big player in the industry. 
It makes more sense to do this than to release 1 new Cinema DSLR and THEN release all the big stuff. I wish there was something that had been announced "for me" too, but business is business. I'm sure there is something great coming.


----------



## pedro (Nov 4, 2011)

Please forgive my technical ignorance. 
As a non-anglo I just like to ask: 
Where do we go from here towards a 5Dish FF DSLR that is mainly designed to do stills?
Or is there another FF Body to be announced sometime next year...A 6?

With much lesser video than this beast here 
at around the same MP's like the current 5D2 
some of the 1Dx specs having trickled down into it 
lets say, equal ISO range, 
some additional fps 
and maybe a 7D focus system?
Price tag: 3 to 3,5 k

Anyone? Thanks!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 4, 2011)

Meh said:


> Assuming no line skipping and no binning, a 4k capture from an approximately APS-H sized crop mode (the press release noted "approximately 80% of the vertical and horizontal) would suggest the sensor is just under 17MP. Given that they said "approximately" it could be the 17.9MP 1DX sensor.



I agree - they'll reuse the 1D X sensor for this new C-series video dSLR, just like they're reusing the 1D X body in the mockup.


----------



## pedro (Nov 4, 2011)

Here's a comment from dpr

"It will be less than the flagship 1DX. The 4k video only works with 24p. If we want 60p or 120p would cost over $10k.
It will take the place of the APS-H 1D series price range maybe a bit cheaper because Canon knows the success relies on competitive pricing. Too high a price people lose interest or choose something else from RED or Sony. 

*The 5D series will split. We may see another FF camera with inferior video at around $2k."*


----------



## Edwin Herdman (Nov 4, 2011)

Meh said:


> Why do you assume binning? That could be a difference between this new video-DSLR (capable of 4k but still Bayer interpolated) and the C 300 that only outputs 1080p but uses binning to increase image quality.


I was with you at the first sentence - the new 1D X shows that it's possible to sample some decently large sensors without resorting to binning. You lost me at the parentetical "(capable of 4k but still Bayer interpolated)" though: All these cameras will have to use Bayer demosaicing to get pixels, unless Canon is moving to non-Bayer technology.


----------



## dr croubie (Nov 5, 2011)

Edwin Herdman said:


> Meh said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you assume binning? That could be a difference between this new video-DSLR (capable of 4k but still Bayer interpolated) and the C 300 that only outputs 1080p but uses binning to increase image quality.
> ...



What he means is, the C300 is an 8MP sensor, in the same way as my 7D is an 18MP sensor. It has 8 Million (near enough) photosites, 2mil red, 2mil blue, 4mil green. Same as my 7D has 18million photosites, 4.5mil red, 4.5milblue, 9mil green.
The C300 takes 1 red, 1 blue, and 2 green photosites and calls it a "video pixel", and there's 1920*1080 "video pixels on the sensor.
The 7D takes 1 red, 1 blue, and 2 green photosites, and calls it 4 pixels. The red pixel takes blue and green colour information from its neighbours, and so on. That's what he means by "bayer interpretation". The colour information of every pixel is only ever exact for one colour, and "near-enough" for the other two colours.

Technically, the C300 could (but doesn't) take 8MP stills photos exactly the same as my 7D takes 18MP stills photos. If they added some firmware (and probably processing power) to the same C300 sensor, they could take 3840*2160 video in the same way.


----------



## Edwin Herdman (Nov 5, 2011)

I didn't know about the different sensor earlier, but I see it was described here:
http://www.eoshd.com/content/5157/technical-analysis-of-the-new-canon-eos-c300



> Like Foveon technology the output of the sensor does not need demosaicing and instead of interpolating colour then de-bayering, the sensor has *a separate red, green and blue photo site for each pixel* â€“ hence the 8MP count and the 1080p output.


That is, by definition, not Bayer interpolation, just like I wrote.

On the other hand, one of the replies is this:


> Pretty much agree except that, by looking at the illustrations Canon put up, it is in fact a traditional Bayer sensor but instead of demosaicing/interpolating it just uses a 2Ã—2 block of the RGGB pattern to spit out one pixel with a red, blue and green reading.


I'll have to hunt those down and see what I think for myself - getting conflicting stories on this one.

This also reveals (edit: maybe) more about what had been previously a minor mystery - what Canon was doing with their own Foveon-like technology. I don't see proof this is the exact same type of technology as seen in the chip but it sure sounds close.

Just a random point (that I finally cleared up after getting it wrong): Scarlet does RAW video, essentially - no chroma subsampling - while the Canon does 4:2:2 chroma subsampling. Different issue though.


----------



## Meh (Nov 5, 2011)

Edwin Herdman said:


> > Like Foveon technology the output of the sensor does not need demosaicing and instead of interpolating colour then de-bayering, the sensor has *a separate red, green and blue photo site for each pixel* â€“ hence the 8MP count and the 1080p output.
> 
> 
> That is, by definition, not Bayer interpolation, just like I wrote.



Right, but that is for the C300 sensor... they are binning an RGGB set and not using bayer interpolation. But your assumption for the "red dot DSLR video camera" was that they were also going to use the same binning as the C300 which is why you then came up with the 50MP sensor (unless I misunderstood). My point is that they won't use binning, rather they would capture a 4k image from the centre section of a ~17-18MP sensor (i.e. the 1DX sensor) and use the usual bayer interpolation to derive colour and luminance for each pixel. This would differentiate the two cameras... the C 300 would only be a 2k output (from an 8MP sensor) but much better colour (they talked about getting better skin tones) and less noise than the 4k output of the new DSLR camera (from an 18MP FF sensor).

Anyway we're all just guessing here, who knows what they'll come up with.


----------



## pedro (Nov 5, 2011)

*Re: *UPDATE 2* ...So, where do we go from here?*

I am not in too much tech, so this might seem quite off topic

Is the Red Dot DSLR the 5Dii replacement
or is it to be seen as another higher level body?

In case of, is there another, even lesser body to be expected then?

Or will the new DSLR in development leave just a huge gap between 7D and the lowest priced FF body?

Thanks. I was about to go FF with a next 5D upgrade. I almost guess, it was not to be...Shall I go for a 5Dii instead, while the price tag is low, as my main focus is on still photography and the 1Dx definetly isn't my league moneywise ?

Thanks for any good advice
Pedro


----------



## JR (Nov 5, 2011)

My guess would be get the 5D mkII now if you need it. Canon seem to be re-vamping significantly their line-up and I fear we may not see any replacement for the 5D until well into next year . Keep in mind this red dot camera is in development, no launch date yet. Coupled with Nikon production problem which mean they are not yet able to put any pressure on Canon 5D sales with a new model yet, Canon does not yet have any urgency to replace the 5D...You can always sell your 5d mkII later if you want. 

My two cents


----------

