# Big Megapixel Tidbits from the Week [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 24, 2013)

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<p><strong>The Next EOS-1?</strong>

We’re told that their is a 44.7mp camera in heavy testing. However, the test cameras are eating batteries when shooting in 4K mode. Development is still continuing on the sensor, batteries and software.</p>
<p>I expect a development announcement for this camera sometime in late 2013 or early 2014.</p>
<p><strong> Medium Format

</strong>Another two people have said Canon will announce a medium format solution for Photokina next September. The big push is towards MF,  but probably won’t see availability until well into 2015.</p>
<p>We’re also told by a second person that such a medium format venture could be a unique arrangement with a current medium format manufacturer. Canon is serious about medium format and will continue to develop a strategy to become the market leader fairly quickly.</p>
<p>A grain of salt on these bits of information, as they’re from unknown sources.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## sanj (Sep 24, 2013)

Would they not need to manufacture whole lot of new lenses of MF?
Possibly they are buying of some MF company...


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## Marsu42 (Sep 24, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> Development is still continuing on the sensor, batteries and software.



Well, here we go (or not): Since the current sensor design is more than maxed out, this means 1dxs in late 2014, 5d4 in 2015, 6d in 2016... unless Canon updates the 5d3/6d with the dual cmos design like on the 70d.


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## eml58 (Sep 24, 2013)

Basically Heaven without Death, 1Dx + Canon/Phase One 45MP, quickly followed by Divorce.


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## M.ST (Sep 24, 2013)

Canon is in negotiations with the medium format manufacturers.

Expect, that a Canon medium format camera hit the market next year or in 2015.

If Canon wait a long time for putting the 1D Xs, 5D Mark 4 and 7D Mark II on the market, then Canon is loosing a lot of customers. That´s the fact. I am not willing to wait for the mentioned cameras for longer than half a year from now. 

Where is the 12-24 2.8 L or 14-24 2.8 L lens? Where is the 100-400 IS replacement?


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## IsaacImage (Sep 24, 2013)

M.ST said:


> Where is the 12-24 2.8 L or 14-24 2.8 L lens? Where is the 100-400 IS replacement?



Sooooo agree about 14-24....so missing this quality (((


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## scottkinfw (Sep 24, 2013)

A bit of clarification please. The gear part is the heaven part?



eml58 said:


> Basically Heaven without Death, 1Dx + Canon/Phase One 45MP, quickly followed by Divorce.


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## Lichtgestalt (Sep 24, 2013)

M.ST said:


> If Canon wait a long time for putting the 1D Xs, 5D Mark 4 and 7D Mark II on the market, then Canon is loosing a lot of customers. That´s the fact.



correct me if im wrong but you are only one... not a lot?!

the MF market is not that big.
sure canon has to look for new business opportunities as P&S is breaking away.

but what you wrote is just the usual "do as i say or i predict doom" that we hear for the last 4-5 years. still canon is doing relatively fine in the camera biz. 




> I am not willing to wait for the mentioned cameras for longer than half a year from now.



say goodbye to canon then! ;D LOL

if someone needs MF... buy it.
i have a phase one for the studio and i see no reason why anyone should wait for canon to enter MF.


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## Sabaki (Sep 24, 2013)

Can you guys educate me on medium format photography?
1. What does it do better than a standard DSLR?
2. What doesn't it do as well?
3. What genres/styles of photography are better suited to medium format?
4. Would medium format require specialized lenses or would the current EF/EF-S lenses work? (Ok, maybe not EF-S)

Thanks everybody


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## TimC (Sep 24, 2013)

I've just signed up to CanonRumors to join the debate on this because I am rather worried by the medium format rumors.

Canon is known for crippling its own products. The most obvious example is the video performance of Canon DSLRs, which have been deliberately held back to protect Canon's camcorder and later Cinema EOS lines. 

I fear that if Canon is working on a medium format system, it will be the end of image quality improvements in their 35mm format DSLRs. If Canon introduce a medium format system, full frame and APS-C cameras will likely be held at around the 20 megapixel mark, with improvements only coming in low light performance. These will be targeted at the photojournalist and event photographer. Indeed, this is what we have seen over the last few years. Those of us who want the highest image quality - dynamic range and resolution - will be pushed to the medium format system.


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## monkeyhand (Sep 24, 2013)

Why would you buy a 44mp camera to shoot 4K video? Seems like overkill or is there an advantage I'm missing?


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## sanj (Sep 24, 2013)

monkeyhand said:


> Why would you buy a 44mp camera to shoot 4K video? Seems like overkill or is there an advantage I'm missing?



Dont know. Never done that before.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Sep 24, 2013)

Sabaki said:


> Can you guys educate me on medium format photography?
> 1. What does it do better than a standard DSLR?
> 2. What doesn't it do as well?
> 3. What genres/styles of photography are better suited to medium format?
> ...


1 - In the days of film, to achieve the highest image quality was inevitable film size bigger than 24x36mm. Yes, until the Second World War, the film 24x36mm was considered small for the requirement for professional quality. Even in the 60s, some news magazines with colorful pictures forced their photographers to cover violent conflicts, running from the police with Hasselblad cameras in hand.
2 - These cameras weigh several kilograms, and are not even agile.
3 - A photography studio and landscape are what medium format is better.
4 - The lens medium format are larger and heavier than their counterparts. A simple F3.5 wide angle lens for medium format can weigh more than 1 kg and costs several thousand dollars.


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## Sella174 (Sep 24, 2013)

TimC said:


> I fear that if Canon is working on a medium format system, it will be the end of image quality improvements in their 35mm format DSLRs. If Canon introduce a medium format system, full frame and APS-C cameras will likely be held at around the 20 megapixel mark, with improvements only coming in low light performance. These will be targeted at the photojournalist and event photographer. Indeed, this is what we have seen over the last few years. Those of us who want the highest image quality - dynamic range and resolution - will be pushed to the medium format system.



I agree. Add to that the fact that Canon is shearing us by perpetuating the myth of sensor cost ... when in reality a 44MP medium format sensor would be equivalent to ... what ... a 10MP APS-C sensor?


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## unfocused (Sep 24, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> A grain of salt on these bits of information, as they’re from unknown sources.



More likely a couple pounds of salt. 

Canon is already heavily invested in one dying market (point and shoot), why would they sink millions into another? Medium Format is a money pit with shrinking demand and marginal improvements in quality. If Canon were to get into the Medium Format business, it would likely be in a very targeted way that focuses on the highest end of the market, similar to their cinema offerings. Even then, it seems unlikely, given that Medium Format is not much of a money-maker for the existing companies.

As for a high megapixel camera. Comparing the sales of the 5DIII and the D800, it looks as though Canon made the right choice in targeting a market that actually exists, rather than focusing on bragging rights for a big megapixel sensor. Canon will offer a high megapixel option only if they can it without much new investment in research, development and production. 

On the other hand, surveillance is a growth industry without a clear, well-capitalized market leader. Canon is well-positioned to be able to dominate the market if they choose to do so.


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## Ricku (Sep 24, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> We’re told that their is a 44.7mp camera in heavy testing. However, the test cameras are eating batteries *when shooting in 4K mode. *


Oh please Canon! For once, can you just forget all about the bloody video-features and focus everything on the still photography part? Just give us the high resolution dynamic range monster we've all been waiting for.


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## Ricku (Sep 24, 2013)

TimC said:


> I fear that if Canon is working on a medium format system, it will be the end of image quality improvements in their 35mm format DSLRs. If Canon introduce a medium format system, full frame and APS-C cameras will likely be held at around the 20 megapixel mark, with improvements only coming in low light performance. These will be targeted at the photojournalist and event photographer. Indeed, this is what we have seen over the last few years. Those of us who want the highest image quality - dynamic range and resolution - will be pushed to the medium format system.


That sounds like something Canon would do. :-\


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## Policar (Sep 24, 2013)

monkeyhand said:


> Why would you buy a 44mp camera to shoot 4K video? Seems like overkill or is there an advantage I'm missing?



One possibility is that the video isn't derived through bayer interpolation and downscaling, but rather through an algorithm like on the C300, which is much faster (and sharper).


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## AmbientLight (Sep 24, 2013)

unfocused said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > A grain of salt on these bits of information, as they’re from unknown sources.
> ...



You are probably right on the money. IQ advances for photography will likely occur as a by-product of new Canon surveillance products. What was once a primary business area for Canon may now devolve to become merely a secondary market.


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## Daniel Flather (Sep 24, 2013)

TimC said:


> Those of us who want the highest image quality - dynamic range and resolution - will be pushed to the medium format system.



Or pushed to Nikon or another manufacture.


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## pedro (Sep 24, 2013)

M.ST said:


> Canon is in negotiations with the medium format manufacturers.
> 
> Expect, that a Canon medium format camera hit the market next year or in 2015.
> 
> ...



I don't think it's very likely, that Canon will replace their current cameras within your timeframe. As I understand, you seem to be a product tester, so you surely have some knowledge about that. They rather go for the typical product cycle and take their time to present a well developped product. But, that's my two cents. On the other hand, why shoot yourself in your own foot if the current bodies sell well... :


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 24, 2013)

M.ST said:


> If Canon wait a long time for putting the 1D Xs, 5D Mark 4 and 7D Mark II on the market, then Canon is loosing a lot of customers. That´s the fact. I am not willing to wait for the mentioned cameras for longer than half a year from now.



What they need to do most of all is make sure the 5D4 has a sensor that can at least get very close to exmor at low ISO even if it takes a little longer. A rushed 5D4 with same old same old would really lose customers since then you'd really wait a long time for something better. But yeah they do need to get a move on, they got to comfortable and marketing had them act too much like kings who didn't need to bother pushing forward faster.

They also need to make sure that the 5D4 doesn't end up with worse video than a ML RAW'ed 5D3, if possible, if it would somehow truly ruin stills at this point then I guess people could keep their old 5D3 and maybe they could keep selling those at reduced price or something, hopefully not the case though.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 24, 2013)

TimC said:


> I've just signed up to CanonRumors to join the debate on this because I am rather worried by the medium format rumors.
> 
> Canon is known for crippling its own products. The most obvious example is the video performance of Canon DSLRs, which have been deliberately held back to protect Canon's camcorder and later Cinema EOS lines.
> 
> I fear that if Canon is working on a medium format system, it will be the end of image quality improvements in their 35mm format DSLRs. If Canon introduce a medium format system, full frame and APS-C cameras will likely be held at around the 20 megapixel mark, with improvements only coming in low light performance. These will be targeted at the photojournalist and event photographer. Indeed, this is what we have seen over the last few years. Those of us who want the highest image quality - dynamic range and resolution - will be pushed to the medium format system.



Yeah, I truly hope it wouldn't mean well if you want more DR here is a nice MF system for you and they just give up on the smaller format sensor improvements.

They certainly decided to not charge forward with the 5D2 video revolution but instead just became on of many by going high-end products, seems like a bit of a lost opportunity, although ML semi-saved them, although a bit late in the game (I don't know if it is related and if sales bumped or not but it seemed like shortly after ML RAW came out and started to become accepted that the 5D3 price suddenly shot back up, hinting that even that late in the game the unlocked abilities helped sales). Had they 5D3 shipped with full video capabilites unlocked and polished up a bit more, man they would've had another revolution and stock would've been gone in a week even they had made 4x as many copies. The movie forums would've been raving instead of meh.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 24, 2013)

monkeyhand said:


> Why would you buy a 44mp camera to shoot 4K video? Seems like overkill or is there an advantage I'm missing?



remember these are bayer sensors so it is not 44MP of full color photosites

they use 22MP from a 3:2 sensor with 3x3 block style (5760/3=1920 across) to make 1080p from the 5D3 and 8MP from a 16:9 sensor using 2x2 block style to make 1080p from the C100 line, 44MP would seem to fit 4k using 2x2 block style from a 3:2 sensor as you get 4096 across for video times 2 is 8192 across and then for height 2/3 so 5461 so 44736512 photosites or 44.7MP and well that it the exact rumored MP count right to the 10th of a MP.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 24, 2013)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > Can you guys educate me on medium format photography?
> ...



I remember lots of magazines, especially nature ones would refuse to accept 35mm submissions for double-page spreads and sometimes even for full single pages, maybe they were going a bit overkill with that, but from what I heard many insisted on at least one of the smaller medium formats and the serious landscape guys did lots of 4x5" view camera shooting.


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## Lawliet (Sep 25, 2013)

Jackson_Bill said:


> What are the sales numbers for the 5Diii and D800 and the total sales of DSLRs for each? I was looking around a bit and couldn't find them.



Don't know about the sales figures...but approached from the other end: our content management buys about 3 times as many shot from medium frames then from D800's.And those in turn get outnumbered about 1:2 by each 5D3,5D2 and the other 18,24MP,whatever-cameras lumped together.

Partially because of the number of users, partially because its hard to get an actual advantage from the D800.
Sure, you have those islands of opportunity, but they are few and far inbetween - the 5D3 is a jack of all trades without real world weakness and if you're willing to retain a one trick pony then the MFs do that trick better.


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## Pi (Sep 25, 2013)

unfocused said:


> Medium Format is a money pit with shrinking demand and marginal improvements in quality.



Speaking about marginal improvements in quality, have you seen this (on dpr)?


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## Eldar (Sep 25, 2013)

Pi said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Medium Format is a money pit with shrinking demand and marginal improvements in quality.
> ...


Do you have a link?


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## wockawocka (Sep 25, 2013)

My money is on a Sony - Hasselblad - Canon linkup.

It makes sense more than Phase / Mamiya / Leaf / Canon.

Canon body, Hassy lenses, Sony sensor. You'd have your high ISO MF system and so would Hasselblad. Once off the groubd Canon would develop their own lenses.

I would SERIOUSLY invest in such a system.


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## Pi (Sep 25, 2013)

Eldar said:


> Pi said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



If you want to torture yourself: 

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=Daylight&attr13_0=phaseone_iq180&attr13_1=nikon_d800&attr15_0=Jpeg&attr15_1=Jpeg&attr16_0=35&attr16_1=50&normalization=full&widget=13&x=-0.660663021189337&y=0.2962479550780386


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## Eldar (Sep 25, 2013)

Pi said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > Pi said:
> ...


A friend of mine just returned from a photo trip to Italy, where brought his newly acquired Phase One IQ180. He had a number of 1x1.5m prints made of landscapes around the Dolomites. And the quality was just unbelievable. But so is the price ...
Having seen these images, it is quite clear that medium format is not dead. But they will need to do something to get more volume. The R&D investments required, to stay ahead of the 35mm DSLRs will be substantial.


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## Pi (Sep 25, 2013)

Eldar said:


> Having seen these images, it is quite clear that medium format is not dead. But they will need to do something to get more volume. The R&D investments required, to stay ahead of the 35mm DSLRs will be substantial.



There were rumors that Canon may just buy one of those MF companies.


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 26, 2013)

sanj said:


> Would they not need to manufacture whole lot of new lenses of MF?



No they won't. Phase One has lenses between 28mm (=18.6mm FF) and 150mm (=100mm FF). Hasselblad starts at 24mm (16mm FF), plus they add two longer lenses, 210mm (=140mm FF) and 300mm (= 200mm). All Canon will need at the start is a 24mm/28mm Wide Angle, an 80mm Normal (=53mm FF) and a Portrait lens 150mm/210mm.


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 26, 2013)

Sabaki said:


> Can you guys educate me on medium format photography?
> 1. What does it do better than a standard DSLR?
> 2. What doesn't it do as well?
> 3. What genres/styles of photography are better suited to medium format?


A DSLR and a Midium Format Digital (MFD) are two different tools. It's like comparing a hand held power circular saw and a table circular saw. They both cut wood  MFD cameras are mainly used for product shots, high-end portraits, architectural and landscape. They seldom/never are used for sports or Birds in Flight (BIF).



> 4. Would medium format require specialized lenses or would the current EF/EF-S lenses work? (Ok, maybe not EF-S)


AFAIK no Canaon DSLR lenses would work. MFD require large and expensive lenses. The crop factor is to *divide a MFD lens[ by 1.5* to get a Full Frame Equivalent, i.e. 240mm devided by 1.5 = 140mm.



> Thanks everybody


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 26, 2013)

c.d.embrey said:


> AFAIK no Canaon DSLR lenses would work.



I believe the current TS-E lenses would work - they have very large image circles to accommodate the movements (although on MF, you'd be limited in TS capability).


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## Don Haines (Sep 27, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> c.d.embrey said:
> 
> 
> > AFAIK no Canaon DSLR lenses would work.
> ...



but you would still have the EFS mount as a bottleneck....


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## verysimplejason (Sep 27, 2013)

Ricku said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We’re told that their is a 44.7mp camera in heavy testing. However, the test cameras are eating batteries *when shooting in 4K mode. *
> ...



Canon wants a bigger market for their camera, not only the stills people. They also want to force-feed you of something you don't want just because you want something in return.


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 27, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> c.d.embrey said:
> 
> 
> > AFAIK no Canaon DSLR lenses would work.
> ...


90mm TS-E Image circle dia. 58.6mm
45mm TS-E Image circle dia. 58.6mm
24mm TS-E Image circle diameter	67.2mm
17mm TS-E Image circle diameter	67.2mm

The Phase One IQ2 series (60 & 80 Mp) are approx 40mmx53mm The Diagonal is approx 66mm. Hasselblad sensors range from approx 40mmx53mm to a smaller approx 33mmx44mm (Diagonal 55mm). *So it all depends on what size MF sensor Canon decides to use.*
*
They could also do as Leica did with their S2 (45 x 30 mm sensor).* Medium format has been anything from 4.5x6cm film to 6x9cm film to today's approx 4.5x6 digital., there is *no written in stone definition of Medium Format.*


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