# I don't bird, but if I wanted to...



## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

Was sitting on the back porch today and a decent sized raptor of some sort swooped by. Brown and tan for the most part, a healthy 4'+ wingspan, relatively small head and beak. I got a few lazy gliding circles not twenty feet from me and off it went.

I checked my local source:
https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/conservation/birds/raptors

It had the mottled breast/belly of the peregrine shown on this page in the top right, but the head looked different. It looked most like an adult Merlin of the birds I cross-referenced from above at my alma mater's ornithology website, but it was _considerably_ bigger than the Merlin dimensions of a 2' wingspan listed there.

Any ideas of what it is?

I don't bird or plan to get into birding, but I wouldn't mind capturing this one or others that might swoop by. We're on the top of a hill and it's not uncommon to see this, so I thought I'd leave my 5D3 + 70-200 f/2.8L IS II ready to go with a custom mode just for this if I spot one again.

My plan:


AI Servo + Center AF '+' cluster
6 fps
I generally shoot Av, f/3.5 or so (plenty of light, no need to shoot wide open)
Will set ISO to get at least 1/2000s (when I saw this one ISO 400, was fine for this).
Usually blue skies here, so a CPL is probably going to be used.

Any changes you'd recommend? I have a 2x T/C but I honestly didn't need it given how close it came this time.

- A


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## applecider (Jul 11, 2018)

I’d think about using the 2x converter with the 70-200, you can always zoom out.

You might want to practice on some smaller birds, I find that shooting against the blue sky that two stops of over exposure is often needed If you want to see feather details. The slower birds a shutter speed of 1/1000 can work for swallows 1/2500 is often needed.

Between over exposing and keeping the shutter speed up often iso climbs to close to 1000 or more if cloudy, so the two stop loss of a polarizer is not always wanted.

As always YMMV :-*


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## Aussie shooter (Jul 11, 2018)

I generally use manual with auto iso maxed out at 1600 . If i need to over or under expose i use exposure compensation. AF is centre point with 4 helpers and normally the 1st AF case in the menu. Raptors are normally pretty cruisy and with IS you can easily shoot as low as 1/1000sec but I try to go faster when possible.


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## jmeyer (Jul 11, 2018)

This time of the year the new brood of immature hawks are usually all brown and white and don't get into adult plumage for at least a year. Your raptor could be any of the hawks, but I would start by looking at some of the bigger common hawks like Red-tailed, since you said wing span of around 4'. Most "bird" websites have pictures of adults and immatures for reference.

Jeremy


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## DJL329 (Jul 11, 2018)

Possibly a Cooper's or Sharp-shinned Hawk.

This site is good for finding birds, as it has a "Similar Species" section, which lists birds that look about the same.

https://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Coopers_Hawk/id


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## BeenThere (Jul 11, 2018)

Impossible to tell which variety of hawk you saw without a photo. Can be difficult to tell even with a photo given the variety of plumage colors with adult, immature, season, and location. 

I would ditch the polarizer and set a manual exposure that gets you to about 1/2000 sec. remember that undersides of bids flying are in shadow requiring some plus compensation. 300 or 400mm will be a better focal length.


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## Valvebounce (Jul 11, 2018)

Hi ahsanford. 
Lots of good / great advice here already. I have the 70-200L II and the 2xIII and I would stay away from the 2x converter if you are not needing it, it is my experience that zooming out to 250mm with the 2xIII will give a worse image than cropping for the same size image without using the converter. YMMV. If you are focal length limited there is no alternative. This lens does work really with the 1.4xIII if you can justify it. 

Cheers, Graham. 



ahsanford said:


> Was sitting on the back porch today and a decent sized raptor of some sort swooped by. Brown and tan for the most part, a healthy 4'+ wingspan, relatively small head and beak. I got a few lazy gliding circles not twenty feet from me and off it went.
> 
> I checked my local source:
> https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/conservation/birds/raptors
> ...


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## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

DJL329 said:


> Possibly a Cooper's or Sharp-shinned Hawk.
> 
> This site is good for finding birds, as it has a "Similar Species" section, which lists birds that look about the same.
> 
> https://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Coopers_Hawk/id



Yep. (That's the website I was referring to.) It always amazes me that my alma mater has such a silly breadth of institutions within it, but that is our motto after all.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi ahsanford.
> Lots of good / great advice here already. I have the 70-200L II and the 2xIII and I would stay away from the 2x converter if you are not needing it, it is my experience that zooming out to 250mm with the 2xIII will give a worse image than cropping for the same size image without using the converter. YMMV. If you are focal length limited there is no alternative. This lens does work really with the 1.4xIII if you can justify it.
> 
> Cheers, Graham.



Thx. No 2x, I think. I have bigger concerns about my ability to frame, track, etc. this guy with the 2x on there. I am unskilled at this that getting a tighter crop is a gamble I won't get the shot at all. Also, T/C AF speed leaves something to be desired.

- A


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## 2n10 (Jul 11, 2018)

Definitely look at the larger hawks given the wing size. Odds on favorite would be a Red-tailed Hawk as is the most common hawk in the US and more so the west. Avoid the 2X TC as it will make it harder to get focus due to it slowing focus speed down. No need for polarizer also.


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## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

2n10 said:


> Definitely look at the larger hawks given the wing size. Odds on favorite would be a Red-tailed Hawk as is the most common hawk in the US and more so the west. Avoid the 2X TC as it will make it harder to get focus due to it slowing focus speed down. No need for polarizer also.



Ooh, developments!

The CPS tooth fairy just arrived and left me a lovely 200 f2L IS. 8) 

Any reason why it might the better call for this? I'm not light constrained so I don't think I _need_ the extra stop. I tend to think of the 70-200 f/2.8L IS II zoom plus it's wonderfully quick AF as still the better call, but I defer to the ringers here.

- A


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## unfocused (Jul 11, 2018)

I don't want to be insulting, but are you absolutely certain it wasn't a vulture? The flight pattern and size you reference sounds an awful lot like a vulture and determining feather colors can be very deceiving depending on the light. 

If it indeed had the pattern you are describing, it probably was a hawk, and the most common large hawk is the Red Tail.


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## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

unfocused said:


> I don't want to be insulting, but are you absolutely certain it wasn't a vulture? The flight pattern and size you reference sounds an awful lot like a vulture and determining feather colors can be very deceiving depending on the light.
> 
> If it indeed had the pattern you are describing, it probably was a hawk, and the most common large hawk is the Red Tail.



Not insulting at all. I don't know birds and it's a fair question.

Like I said, coloring and head/beak size seemed spot on for a Merlin but it was simply 2x the size. Other than Osprey wings vs. Non-Osprey wings (and it did not have Osprey wings), can't tell other features like tails and body shape and what not.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

Looked at the red tailed hawk and only the juvenile looks close -- most of the pics I've seen show a harder white region under the wings and on the body than what I saw. What I saw was heavily mottled brown and white.

- A


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## unfocused (Jul 11, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Looked at the red tailed hawk and only the juvenile looks close -- most of the pics I've seen show a harder white region under the wings and on the body than what I saw. What I saw was heavily mottled brown and white.
> 
> - A



Keep in mind that a juvenile isn't necessarily smaller than an adult, just isn't mature yet. Plus there are morphs and variations within the species, it can be hard to accurately judge size without having a reference point, the light can play tricks on you and other types like Red Shouldered and Broad Winged are difficult to distinguish unless you have a picture to study. 

My wife knows birds really well and she has to take the picture and then study the books to figure out what it was. If you think hawks are bad, try sparrows.


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## ethanz (Jul 11, 2018)

Adam, stop now before its too late. If you go down this journey much longer, you may be hooked and become a birder before you know it.


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## unfocused (Jul 11, 2018)

ethanz said:


> Adam, stop now before its too late. If you go down this journey much longer, you may be hooked and become a birder before you know it.



Excellent advice!


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## ahsanford (Jul 12, 2018)

unfocused said:


> ethanz said:
> 
> 
> > Adam, stop now before its too late. If you go down this journey much longer, you may be hooked and become a birder before you know it.
> ...



;D

Fear not, I don't have the patience for birding. 

At best I'll have the camera + 70-200 sitting on the porch ottoman/bean-bag thing while we have happy hour on the porch. If I don't see this bird before my old fashioned, sazerac or penicillin is finished, I'll pack it up.

- A


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## ethanz (Jul 12, 2018)

One day I went to take pictures of birds. Less than six months later I bought a 200-400 (in part) to fuel my birding photography. I blame my friend for taking me that day to shoot birds.


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## ahsanford (Jul 12, 2018)

ethanz said:


> One day I went to take pictures of birds. Less than six months later I bought a 200-400 (in part) to fuel my birding photography. I blame my friend for taking me that day to shoot birds.



I don't get the itch like that unless I'm hiking or on vacation in a really picturesque place.

Birding -- the realities of the size/cost of the glass, waiting, the constantly being out in the wild, dealing with mosquitoes, etc. are simply not my jam. When I'm outdoors we're constantly moving/hiking/exploring.

And the high I got for finally capturing a bald eagle in the wild last year wasn't that much of a high. Landscapes, candids, travel, etc. get me going much much more.

- A


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## BeenThere (Jul 12, 2018)

At least you were able to ID this bird.


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## unfocused (Jul 12, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> ...And the high I got for finally capturing a bald eagle in the wild last year wasn't that much of a high. Landscapes, candids, travel, etc. get me going much much more.



The progression of a bird photographer:

Oh that's a pretty bird. I think I'll take a picture of it.

I've never seen that kind of a bird before. Let me snap a picture of it and look it up.

I'd like to get a sharp picture of that bird.

That bird is pretty far away. I wish I had a longer lens.

Yay! I got a sharp picture of that bird sitting on a branch!

I'm tired of pictures of birds just sitting there. I'd like to get one flying. 

Dang! All my flying pictures are soft. I need a camera that focuses faster and shoots more frames.

Yay! I got a picture of a flying bird and it's in focus.

Maybe I need to go somewhere where there are different birds.

Yay! look at all these new birds. Now if I can just get a good one of that bird in flight.

If only I could get a picture of a bird with a fish in its mouth.

Wouldn't it be cool to get a picture of a bird feeding it's young in the nest?

What am I doing here at 5 a.m. sitting in a blind with $20,000 worth of camera equipment waiting for a damn bird?


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## ethanz (Jul 12, 2018)

unfocused said:


> What am I doing here at 5 a.m. sitting in a blind with $20,000 worth of camera equipment waiting for a damn bird?



When its -10 degrees outside.


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## ahsanford (Jul 12, 2018)

unfocused said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > ...And the high I got for finally capturing a bald eagle in the wild last year wasn't that much of a high. Landscapes, candids, travel, etc. get me going much much more.
> ...



My drink was done before your third or fourth point. I'm already back in the house at this point.

- A


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## snappy604 (Jul 12, 2018)

unfocused said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > ...And the high I got for finally capturing a bald eagle in the wild last year wasn't that much of a high. Landscapes, candids, travel, etc. get me going much much more.
> ...



yikes... I'm part-way down this list!


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## Don Haines (Jul 13, 2018)

unfocused said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > ...And the high I got for finally capturing a bald eagle in the wild last year wasn't that much of a high. Landscapes, candids, travel, etc. get me going much much more.
> ...



You forgot a few.....

Why are there 13,853 RAW pictures of a chickadee on my hard drive?

I went on a three week trip to Costa Rica and I have no pictures of the wife and kids, but 62,356 pictures of a parrot...

My wife left me, she took the kids, but left the 62,356 pictures of the parrot....


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## ethanz (Jul 13, 2018)

Sorry to hear that Don. Maybe start paying attention to your wife before that happens.


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## takesome1 (Jul 13, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...


And a few that you may have missed.

My wife attorney called, I now am shooting birds with iPhone.

I was able to put my 62,356 parrot pictures on a hard drive before I had to give the wife the computer.


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## Don Haines (Jul 13, 2018)

ethanz said:


> Sorry to hear that Don. Maybe start paying attention to your wife before that happens.



I'm in a far better situation than that... She is the better photographer.... and will let me borrow the studio flash  but to be fair about things, I'm pretty sure that she only wants me for my body (carrying stuff) and I could be replaced with a luggage cart with wheels......


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## ethanz (Jul 13, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> ethanz said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry to hear that Don. Maybe start paying attention to your wife before that happens.
> ...



At least she wants your body and just your camera body.


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## DSP121 (Jul 13, 2018)

Nice one. But, without legs, it's not looking that effective! The full picture could have been awesome!


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## stevelee (Jul 13, 2018)

I don't go anywhere to shoot pictures of birds. My deck extends out near the woods. The next-door neighbor has a bunch of bird feeders. There are a lot of cardinals around, so they make colorful subjects. When I'm trying out a new telephoto lens or learning to use time-lapse features of the camera body, the birds are there, especially toward sunset. When it snows, the tree near the bird feeders fill with birds waiting their turns.

The deer are much less cooperative. They become wary when I'm out on the deck, and when I point something at them, they duck behind the trees.

I shot this out a kitchen window rather than going out into the cold and making enough noise that the birds fly away. The low contrast gives a look much like it appeared at the time and maybe a sense of the cold. I'm not sure what might be gained or lost by perking it up more in ACR. January was long before I got the 100-40mm lens, so this was taken with the 75-300mm optically challenged lens with further degradation by the dirty window glass. But I still like the picture.


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## Grant Atkinson (Jul 27, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Was sitting on the back porch today and a decent sized raptor of some sort swooped by. Brown and tan for the most part, a healthy 4'+ wingspan, relatively small head and beak. I got a few lazy gliding circles not twenty feet from me and off it went.
> 
> I checked my local source:
> https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/conservation/birds/raptors
> ...


All sounds good here AH Sanford
But if it where me I would leave off the CPL, as polarizing filters can degrade autofocus performance. If I need autofocus to work on fast subjects then I try to work without them.
Cheers
Grant


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## Rockskipper (Nov 24, 2018)

I live by a river where there are lots of eagles, osprey, herons, etc. It seems they're always on the side opposite me, so I'm saving to buy a really long lens. I can see them from my deck.

Point being, like Stevelee says above, you don't even need to leave your house to get bird fever.


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## Don Haines (Nov 24, 2018)

Rockskipper said:


> I live by a river where there are lots of eagles, osprey, herons, etc. It seems they're always on the side opposite me, so I'm saving to buy a really long lens. I can see them from my deck.
> 
> Point being, like Stevelee says above, you don't even need to leave your house to get bird fever.


Have you considered getting a canoe?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 24, 2018)

I setup my R to silent shutter to take photos of some small birds in a tree next to my porch. They were afraid of the big lens and flew away when it pointed at them, so the silent shutter was no help. Further away, say 25 ft, they were not afraid.


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## Don Haines (Nov 24, 2018)

Rockskipper said:


> I live by a river where there are lots of eagles, osprey, herons, etc. It seems they're always on the side opposite me, so I'm saving to buy a really long lens. I can see them from my deck.
> 
> Point being, like Stevelee says above, you don't even need to leave your house to get bird fever.


From the house today, looking at the feeder in the yard...….


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## Rockskipper (Nov 25, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Have you considered getting a canoe?


I couldn't canoe this river, too many rapids (Roaring Fork in Colorado).

Really nice photos!


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## Don Haines (Nov 25, 2018)

Rockskipper said:


> I couldn't canoe this river, too many rapids (Roaring Fork in Colorado).



Pity! I'm just outside Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. There are rivers and lakes everywhere up here and a canoe allows me to get a lot closer to wildlife than I normally would. Zooming with your legs (or canoe) beats a big lens, but only when you can.

I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but have you tried a Nikon P900? Several people in the local camera club seem to like them....


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## Rockskipper (Nov 25, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Pity! I'm just outside Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. There are rivers and lakes everywhere up here and a canoe allows me to get a lot closer to wildlife than I normally would. Zooming with your legs (or canoe) beats a big lens, but only when you can.
> 
> I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but have you tried a Nikon P900? Several people in the local camera club seem to like them....


I actually have a Nikon, but for some reason just prefer the Canon ergonomics and colors. I'm going to sell the Nikon and buy a 200-400 lens. I think it will go nicely with my 7DMII. I tend to take more wildlife shots (bears, ungulates, etc.) than birds because of where I live. My river is more for rafting and flyfishing. Not too many water birds in this part of the country unless they're migrating through. You sound like you live in birder heaven.


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## Don Haines (Nov 25, 2018)

Rockskipper said:


> I actually have a Nikon, but for some reason just prefer the Canon ergonomics and colors. I'm going to sell the Nikon and buy a 200-400 lens. I think it will go nicely with my 7DMII. I tend to take more wildlife shots (bears, ungulates, etc.) than birds because of where I live. My river is more for rafting and flyfishing. Not too many water birds in this part of the country unless they're migrating through. You sound like you live in birder heaven.


I am surrounded by farmland, and they harvest the corn at the start of migration. This means spilled seeds in the fields, and that becomes thousands of geese feeding on it. I back onto a sheltered bay, which in the fall becomes waterfowl heaven until freeze-up, when they head south. This was my view from the deck, until two weeks ago when it froze over.


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## Rockskipper (Nov 25, 2018)

I have to go to places like Bosque del Apache to see birds like that. What a treasure you have there!


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## Deleted member 91053 (Nov 25, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> I don't get the itch like that unless I'm hiking or on vacation in a really picturesque place.
> 
> Birding -- the realities of the size/cost of the glass, waiting, the constantly being out in the wild, dealing with mosquitoes, etc. are simply not my jam. When I'm outdoors we're constantly moving/hiking/exploring.
> 
> ...



That is the way I used to think. These days 90% of my photography is with my 800 F5.6 L IS + all the expensive clutter to get the most out of it! Bird photography is a slippery slope and I slipped, you might too - BEWARE!!!!!!!!!!!!


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