# Tilt-Shift Lens vs. Macro Slide Rail



## anim8r79 (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm in the market for a tilt-shift lens like the 24mm for real estate photography. However, it is very pricey and I'm wondering if there are any alternatives to wider captures. Right now I'm on a APS-C with a Canon 10-22 and I'm not a big fan of the curvature at the extreme frame edges. Planning on going Full Frame very soon and didn't know if the tilt-shift is absolutely worth the $2K+ or if similar results could be had with a 24mm (or 20mm, etc) on a Macro Slide Rail, going left to right to capture a wider composition and then stitch back together in PS. 

Suggestions/Advice greatly appreciated! Thanks!


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 14, 2012)

anim8r79 said:


> I'm in the market for a tilt-shift lens like the 24mm for real estate photography. However, it is very pricey and I'm wondering if there are any alternatives to wider captures. Right now I'm on a APS-C with a Canon 10-22 and I'm not a big fan of the curvature at the extreme frame edges. Planning on going Full Frame very soon and didn't know if the tilt-shift is absolutely worth the $2K+ or if similar results could be had with a 24mm (or 20mm, etc) on a Macro Slide Rail, going left to right to capture a wider composition and then stitch back together in PS.



You can't do a two-shot shift-panorama with a macro rail, you'd just be taking two shots that would overlap by about 98%. A shift lens moves the lens elements relative to the sensor, as opposed to shifting both lens and sensor.


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## 5dmk.iii (Mar 14, 2012)

Macro rail could work as long as you can back up the body and pivot on the lens nodal point.

There's another way :

What you need it a tripod head with panning. And a lens with a tripod collar. You can get shots panning with the camera attached to the tripod head and pan... but you will run into Parallax issues. Thats where a lens with a tripod coller come into play. The collar lets you pivot the body over the tripod head nearer to the focal point of the lenses vs at the sensor where parallax can occur.


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## 5dmk.iii (Mar 14, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> anim8r79 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm in the market for a tilt-shift lens like the 24mm for real estate photography. However, it is very pricey and I'm wondering if there are any alternatives to wider captures. Right now I'm on a APS-C with a Canon 10-22 and I'm not a big fan of the curvature at the extreme frame edges. Planning on going Full Frame very soon and didn't know if the tilt-shift is absolutely worth the $2K+ or if similar results could be had with a 24mm (or 20mm, etc) on a Macro Slide Rail, going left to right to capture a wider composition and then stitch back together in PS.
> ...



Neuro, he could use the rail as a slingshot and pivot on the nodal point of the lens...


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## anim8r79 (Mar 14, 2012)

I've read about rotating on the nodal point of the lens, and there is a really lengthy article on the Really Right Stuff page about all the equipment they offer in regards to panoramas... My head hurts from all that info. 

I'm trying to minimize the amount of setup/overlap, tripod moving, etc and it seems like the most efficient way is to go with the Tilt-shift lens. Take one all the way left, take one all the way right and then stitch in PS, right? Or at least a third image in the direct center of the frame...

I've read the reviews on The-Digital-Picture raving about the 24mm mk II over the first version with regards to chromatic aberration and fringing etc... but if a lot of that can be fixed in PS, is it worth saving $1,000+ to go with the mk I over the newer mk II?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 14, 2012)

This is a very academic discussion. I suggest to rent the TS-E24mm L II to try it by yourself. I did this last month and it is an incredible lens! With a tilt shift you get the full quality into your file, every PS action to expand is a compromise.


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## anim8r79 (Mar 14, 2012)

You tried the 24mm T/S L on your 40D? How difficult was it to make adjustments? I read that on bodies with a built-in flash that some of the controls are hard to get to...


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## Quasimodo (Mar 14, 2012)

I have another suggestion. Try a lens that goes fairly wide, and shoot multiple overlapping shots vertically with free hand, and use the automate stitch in CS5. I read a book by Scott Kelby arguing for this approach, and in my opinion it has worked quite well, as long as you find some helping line in the place you are shooting at to fix your autofocus point. The benefit of shooting vertically is that even if the pictures don't overlap perfect, there is still so much space that you can cut out a really good picture of it. 

I am including a shoot I took with my 17mm TS (23 pictures stiched together). In this shot I used the horizon to help me as I was turning my body and camera. If the picture is not up to standards, then it is the photographer, and not the stiching softwares fault


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## 5dmk.iii (Mar 14, 2012)

anim8r79 said:


> You tried the 24mm T/S L on your 40D? How difficult was it to make adjustments? I read that on bodies with a built-in flash that some of the controls are hard to get to...



24mm on 40D is close to 40mm on FF. You would need 4-6 shots depending how wide you wanted to go vs. a single 10-22mm. Can you consider a nice 5d1 and get extra width? they are going for $800 on ebay in very good condition. Everyone selling and buy the 5d3... in the end the savings in workflow enough might make it a worthwhile purchase.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 14, 2012)

No I tried the 24 TS on a 5D M2 of course


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## gbillett (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm in the same situation. The mark ii lens is a terrific lens, beautifully engineered, but expensive. Options as I see them are :

1. Buy 24mm mark i. Seems capable but CA prominent and specs not as good as mark ii ( ie less shift). Good write up and images on http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/tilt_and_shift_ts-e.html. 
2. Buy proper pano kit for making multi-row stitched images. OK for general landscapes but difficulties potentially up close.
3. Wait for Samyang to release its rumoured 24mm ts lens later this year. Should be good value. Manual focus no different than Canons ts lenses
4. Use existing lenses and pp in photoshop etc
5. Bite the bullet and buy the mk ii.

I'm still undecided but need one later this year. I'll probably wait for more news re Samyang. The other immediate option is to buy a mk i and if its unsatisfactory sell it for little or no loss. Good luck with your decision ;D

Geoff


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## Random Orbits (Mar 14, 2012)

anim8r79 said:


> You tried the 24mm T/S L on your 40D? How difficult was it to make adjustments? I read that on bodies with a built-in flash that some of the controls are hard to get to...



If the 24mm is like the 17mm, then you might not be able to use the larger knob that shifts the lens. The smaller knob works ok, but it's easier with the larger knob. The larger knob might interfere with pop-up flash's lower profile when you rotate the whole assembly (switching from a horizontal shift to a vertical shift and vice versa).


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## Tijn (Mar 14, 2012)

Quasimodo said:


> I have another suggestion. Try a lens that goes fairly wide, and shoot multiple overlapping shots vertically with free hand, and use the automate stitch in CS5.


For landscapes that might work, as slight shifts in the position of the camera won't have any noticeable effects on the angle of view of far-away things.

When you're indoors or working with closer objects, you'll need the precision of a tripod with the pivot point being at the optical center of the lens. Small shifts in camera position will result in visible changes in the angle of view as the things you're taking pictures of are close by.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 14, 2012)

anim8r79 said:


> I'm in the market for a tilt-shift lens like the 24mm for real estate photography. However, it is very pricey and I'm wondering if there are any alternatives to wider captures. Right now I'm on a APS-C with a Canon 10-22 and I'm not a big fan of the curvature at the extreme frame edges. Planning on going Full Frame very soon and didn't know if the tilt-shift is absolutely worth the $2K+ or if similar results could be had with a 24mm (or 20mm, etc) on a Macro Slide Rail, going left to right to capture a wider composition and then stitch back together in PS.
> 
> Suggestions/Advice greatly appreciated! Thanks!



I have a relatively inexpensive Kirk long rail which is about 6 inches long that will let you position your lens so you can rotate around the nodal point using your tripod. It is a relatively inexpensive way to turn your tripod and head into a panoramic head. You do not need a uber expensive lens to get decent results, start with a cheap but distortion free prime lens and then decide if you are getting enough business to splurge. 

Canon is also coming out with a new version of DPP that will make extensive corrections for the commonly used Canon lenses, even accounting for distortion from the lowpass filter on the sensor. It sounds great to me, and its free. No word on exactly which lenses it will support, but it will be out very soon, since its coming with the 5D MK III.

http://www.kirkphoto.com/Long-Rail-Plate-Macro.html


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 14, 2012)

5dmk.iii said:


> Neuro, he could use the rail as a slingshot and pivot on the nodal point of the lens...



Sure, but that's not what the OP was suggesting. "_...Macro Slide Rail, *going left to right* to capture a wider composition and then stitch back together in PS._"

But you're right, a macro rail oriented forward/backward as you'd use it for macro (or even a long lens plate with a perpendicular mounting plate, assuming no tripod collar on the lens) combined with a tripod head with a panning feature, would work. The process to find the nodal point is straightforawrd, and you can mark it on the rail/plate for each lens for future reference.

FWIW, using a TS lens to create shift panoramas is not ideal with close subjects in the frame (like in RE shots), unless special steps are taken, for the same reason as above - parallax. Shifting the lens front elements (with a TS lens) doesn't correct for that - what you actually need to do is hold the front element position constant and shift the camera. There are a couple of outfits that sell custom tripod collars for the TS-E lenses for just that purpose.


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## Flake (Mar 14, 2012)

It always raises a wry smile when people discuss pano heads, because I know that sooner or later someone will mention the 'Nodal Point' without a clue what it is.

In fact the Nodal point is the point on a lens element where the light bends, here is what Wikipedia has to say:

"The nodal points are widely misunderstood in photography, where it is commonly asserted that the light rays "intersect" at "the nodal point", that the iris diaphragm of the lens is located there, and that this is the correct pivot point for panoramic photography, so as to avoid parallax error. These claims generally arise from confusion about the optics of camera lenses, as well as confusion between the nodal points and the other cardinal points of the system. (A better choice of the point about which to pivot a camera for panoramic photography can be shown to be the centre of the system's entrance pupil. On the other hand, swing-lens cameras with fixed film position rotate the lens about the rear nodal point to stabilize the image on the film."

No doubt there'll be plenty of the usual smites for putting people right - yet another good reason for getting rid of it.


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## Quasimodo (Mar 14, 2012)

Tijn said:


> Quasimodo said:
> 
> 
> > I have another suggestion. Try a lens that goes fairly wide, and shoot multiple overlapping shots vertically with free hand, and use the automate stitch in CS5.
> ...


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## Flake (Mar 14, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> 5dmk.iii said:
> 
> 
> > Neuro, he could use the rail as a slingshot and pivot on the nodal point of the lens...
> ...



No you can't because the point changes position with both focal length on a zoom, and with focus. The best you can hope to do is to get a close approximation and work from there.

A Pano head is only really useful where there is good perspective, objects close to the lens and further away. If everything is more or less in the same focal plane then software will make a good job of it. These days the software is so good that even without a pano head it will make a 'perfect' stitch, which is why I sold mine.


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## iaind (Mar 14, 2012)

Picked up a 24mk1 used for less than 1/3 cheapest price of mk2. Can do without the pivot of Mk2.

Its another option


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## Flake (Mar 14, 2012)

Didn't take long for someone to hit the smite button did it?


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## wickidwombat (Mar 14, 2012)

Flake said:


> It always raises a wry smile when people discuss pano heads, because I know that sooner or later someone will mention the 'Nodal Point' without a clue what it is.
> 
> In fact the Nodal point is the point on a lens element where the light bends, here is what Wikipedia has to say:
> 
> ...


I've been wondering how to find the nodal points on canon lenses, some nikon lenses have it marked on the barrel. Do you know where the nodal points are for canon lenses?
so you are saying set the front element is a better point to rotate about? interesting since i use the gigapan its easy to fix the point at the start of the panorama but as you say there is so much conjecture around about which point is best.


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## Neeneko (Mar 14, 2012)

You want options? Here is a whole page of options:

http://www.stitchpix.com/options.html

I am looking at the same question myself but have not settled on which way to go yet, though both the Zork and Novoflex look about right.


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## wickidwombat (Mar 14, 2012)

Flake said:


> Didn't take long for someone to hit the smite button did it?



I gave you an applaud to counteract it :-*


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 15, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> Flake said:
> 
> 
> > Didn't take long for someone to hit the smite button did it?
> ...



Same here, I appreciated the explanation. Somehow I recall reading that, but have forgotton it.


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## wickidwombat (Mar 15, 2012)

Neeneko said:


> You want options? Here is a whole page of options:
> 
> http://www.stitchpix.com/options.html
> 
> I am looking at the same question myself but have not settled on which way to go yet, though both the Zork and Novoflex look about right.



I use novoflex gear, its top shelf quality but expensive as hell

I also have the gigapan epic pro which i dont use nearly as much as i would like to


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## Bennymiata (Mar 15, 2012)

Probably the easiest and cheapest way for you to take those architectural shots is to get a tripod with rollers on it that you can lock so it runs straight.

Use a prime lens and push the trolley top the left side, take a picture, then shift the whole thing to the right so you still get overlap, then move right again etc and when you've got everything in the set that you want, stitch it together in Photoshop, or in Elements.
That way, you won't get problems with curvature etc.

A tilt-shift lens won't fix the problems you are encountering.
They are mainly designed to get a certain part of the picture in or out of focus, and for parralex errors, and won't neccesairly be able to get a whole room in perfect focus, without a lot of fiddling experimentation.

It's easy to find the nodal point of your lens.
Place 2 sticks vertically in front of, but slightly to the side of the camera on the tripod, and keep one about 4 or 5 ft behind the other.
Adjust the position of the camera on the tripod so that when you pan the camera, the sticks stay together and don't get further apart as you pan.
There's a good explanation and a video of it on the www.Acratech.net site.
Once you've done it a couple of times, it only takes about a minute to do.


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## anim8r79 (Mar 15, 2012)

Thanks for all the great advice! I think I'll rent the 24mm TS and give it a spin.

Now to figure out if the 5D MkIII is really worth the extra $$$ over the MkII...


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## Neeneko (Mar 15, 2012)

anim8r79 said:


> Now to figure out if the 5D MkIII is really worth the extra $$$ over the MkII...



If you are primarily doing architectural shots, then no, it really is probably not worth it. The high framerate, ISO, and fast AF give you and advantage in moving targets, but buildings are generally pretty damn slow, thus giving one plenty of time to focus and get good low light shots via simply increasing the shutter time.


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## kirispupis (Mar 15, 2012)

There is one thing I am a bit confused about: why is the focus so much on panos in real estate photography?

I am a real estate photographer and do not see any requests for panos. Early in my career I took them and no one used them. There are some agents who use 360 panos - which are quite a bit different - though around here no one asks for them because many of the local MLS sites do not support them. Anyways for 360 panos a TS-E 24 would be a major pain. The 8-15 fisheye would be more useful for that purpose.

I have the TS-E 24 II, TS-E 17, and TS-E 90 and only use tilt shifts for my RE work. I use them for their architectural shift capabilities - not for their ability to take two shot panos. By shifting I can easily choose how much floor vs. ceiling I want in my shot while keeping my verticals straight. It is extremely important for emphasizing the key selling points of the room. I typically use my TS-E 24 II for exteriors, TS-E 17 for interiors, and TS-E 90 on rare occasions for shots from docks or distance views of the property.

Outside of RE, I occasionally take panos. There I have found a macro rail to be useful for adjusting to the nodal point of the lens. I own two different macro rails - a Really Right Stuff XY rail (two rails stacked) and the Stackshot from Cognisys. In the past I owned the Kirk rail but sold it in favor of the RRS. The RRS rails is more precise and much stronger. For panos I only use the RRS rail.

For macro I would definitely buy the best rail possible (Stackshot) but panos do not put much stress on the rail so even a cheap one will do.


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## AJ (Mar 15, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> Flake said:
> 
> 
> > It always raises a wry smile when people discuss pano heads, because I know that sooner or later someone will mention the 'Nodal Point' without a clue what it is.
> ...


Turn on live-view, rotate the camera/lens, and check for parallax. Adjust pano head until the foreground doesn't move w.r.t. the background. Mark the position on the pano head to save you time next time around.

Nodal points are defined based on a cross-over of light beams in a single element lens. For multi-element lenses it's a theoretical spot only. Light bends at each element, so it's not the location "where the light bends".


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## AJ (Mar 15, 2012)

anim8r79 said:


> Right now I'm on a APS-C with a Canon 10-22 and I'm not a big fan of the curvature at the extreme frame edges.



Have you tried DXO?

The new Canon lens optimizer looks promising too.


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## anim8r79 (Mar 15, 2012)

kirispupis said:


> There is one thing I am a bit confused about: why is the focus so much on panos in real estate photography?
> 
> I am a real estate photographer and do not see any requests for panos. Early in my career I took them and no one used them. There are some agents who use 360 panos - which are quite a bit different - though around here no one asks for them because many of the local MLS sites do not support them. Anyways for 360 panos a TS-E 24 would be a major pain. The 8-15 fisheye would be more useful for that purpose.
> 
> ...



Great info! My question was not so much about panoramas or 360 panos, just mainly about the ability to stitch 2 or 3 images from the TS lens shifting from left to right to get a larger (i.e. wider) image of a room without the parallax issues of the far left and far right of the frame getting all stretched out. From what I've seen, it seemed like the Tilt-shift lens would allow to get a wider (more spacious) view without the UWA artifacts.


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## kirispupis (Mar 15, 2012)

anim8r79 said:


> Great info! My question was not so much about panoramas or 360 panos, just mainly about the ability to stitch 2 or 3 images from the TS lens shifting from left to right to get a larger (i.e. wider) image of a room without the parallax issues of the far left and far right of the frame getting all stretched out. From what I've seen, it seemed like the Tilt-shift lens would allow to get a wider (more spacious) view without the UWA artifacts.



This is true, but there are a few things to consider against doing this.
[list type=decimal]
[*]You lose out on the ability to shift up and down (because you are already shifting left/right). Therefore you lose on of the major creative features of the TS lens.
[*]A lot of RE agents like the ultra-wide view. Of course, you do need to be careful with things on the left and right edges. However, most of the agents I know prefer images taken by UW lenses as it makes rooms appear larger. While photographers tend to be against this, it does help sell houses.
[*]If you are using HDR or exposure blending, this makes PP more of a pain.
[/list]

Interestingly the one time I did use a TS for a pano, the agent had me crop the shot about 50% - or to where I could have taken it in a single shot.


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## 5dmk.iii (Mar 15, 2012)

Flake said:


> Didn't take long for someone to hit the smite button did it?



I got one too from him once I questioned his post ;D. It is ok, whatever makes people happy... I gave you an applaud, and did not smite him.


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## wickidwombat (Mar 15, 2012)

5dmk.iii said:


> Flake said:
> 
> 
> > Didn't take long for someone to hit the smite button did it?
> ...


how are you working out who smites you? I cant work out who keeps smiting me
I dont see why flakes post warrated a smite it was completely logical and civil, and informative too


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## 5dmk.iii (Mar 16, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> 5dmk.iii said:
> 
> 
> > Flake said:
> ...



Create hypothesis; Bait and watch the smite happen and confirm the hypothesis a few times. It's never fool proof but tidbits of information here and there help. For this guy I have narrowed it down a bit. He is a very helpful guy, but like all of us... does not like to be refuted in public; his rep is precious to him... rightly so... lets leave it at that since I have said too much already. ;D


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## 5dmk.iii (Mar 16, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> 5dmk.iii said:
> 
> 
> > Flake said:
> ...



Create hypothesis; Bait and watch the smite happen and confirm the hypothesis a few times. It's never fool proof but tidbits of information here and there help. For this guy I have narrowed it down a bit. He is a very helpful guy, but like all of us... does not like to be refuted in public; his rep is precious to him... rightly so... lets leave it at that since I have said too much already. ;D 

(PS: 45/33 now, lets see which way it goes, does he smite me for outing him or does he try a curveball and mess up my experiment? )


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## AJ (Mar 16, 2012)

That won't work if you have a smiter who logs in every day and smites you systematically.


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## 5dmk.iii (Mar 16, 2012)

AJ said:


> That won't work if you have a smiter who logs in every day and smites you systematically.



True and I pray for their speedy recovery


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