# Update: The Canon EOS R3 will be officially announced on June 29th



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 25, 2021)

> *Update:* I’m getting mixed information as to whether or not it will be an official announcement tomorrow or just more information about the Canon EOS R3.
> Canon will officially announce the Canon EOS R3 on June 29, 2021. This date is based on living in the western hemisphere. We will obviously have full coverage of the launch.
> Canon will also announce the RF 14-35mm f/4L IS USM lens on the same day.
> Canon EOS R3 Specifications:
> ...



Continue reading...


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## CanonGrunt (Jun 25, 2021)

Whoooo! When can I order it?!?!


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## FrenchFry (Jun 25, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Yes!!!! So excited!

So is 30.1MP "confirmed"?


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## Red Dog (Jun 25, 2021)

Fingers crossed for a reasonable selling price. After forking out for the 1dx mkiii last year the chances of persuading the boss that this is a must have could be difficult especially if its over £5k.


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## Sporgon (Jun 25, 2021)

Guess we won’t know the mp until we open the box


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 25, 2021)

Sporgon said:


> Guess we won’t know the mp until we open the box


Or you could re-read the OP where it states 30.1 MP BSI.


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## FrenchFry (Jun 25, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Or you could re-read the OP where it states 30.1 MP BSI.


Too easy.


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## lnz (Jun 25, 2021)

new hot question : will it have 4k120 with or without overheating! if yes i see my r5 right away


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## Sporgon (Jun 25, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Or you could re-read the OP where it states 30.1 MP BSI.


That’s not half as much fun


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## slclick (Jun 25, 2021)

Seriously, a dream camera body for me however I just got the R6 and that will have to suffice for 6-10 years, now that I am in semi retirement. Those of you who do go this route enjoy, please review & share share share.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 25, 2021)

*holds finger over keyboard, waiting for preorder button to become active*


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## usern4cr (Jun 25, 2021)

I hope they have various FPS rates for the electronic shutter usage - 30 fps if forced would be way too fast for me if it's the only choice.
Hopefully the eye tracking AF is a *new* "game changer". They're on a roll with great AF and I hope it continues here!
Other than that, this seems to be a great body! I hope it's not too expensive - well, yes, that is such a relative term!


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## bvukich (Jun 25, 2021)

I was going to get an R6 to accompany an existing R5, but...


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## cinemanimal (Jun 25, 2021)

Fingers crossed RAW 4k 120fps will full AF. That would make it a must buy for me!


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## RayValdez360 (Jun 25, 2021)

lnz said:


> new hot question : will it have 4k120 with or without overheating! if yes i see my r5 right away


who needs to run 120fps 4k that long? What are you filming full sports in 120?


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 25, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> Yes!!!! So excited!
> 
> So is 30.1MP "confirmed"?


Anything under 30.2 MP is a child's play thing.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 25, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Anything under 30.2 MP is a child's play thing.


Good, because I’m a kid at heart.


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## john1970 (Jun 25, 2021)

Glad to hear it is being announced at the end of June. A bit sooner than I anticipated. Hopefully, this means that it will ship in late August / early September at the latest. Would be thrilled to see it released in early August.


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 25, 2021)

On a completely unrelated note, would anyone be interested in a slightly used kidney? I would refer to it as a 'do'er upper'.


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## FrenchFry (Jun 25, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Anything under 30.2 MP is a child's play thing.


I just kept thinking "please let it be more than 30MP". Now, here we are at 30.1. 

But even if it is "just" 30MP, I am sure it will be fabulous. Just not quite as exciting for getting close to birds, but hopefully even better AF and image quality to make up for it.


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## navastronia (Jun 25, 2021)

john1970 said:


> Glad to hear it is being announced at the end of June. A bit sooner than I anticipated. Hopefully, this means that it will ship in late August / early September at the latest. Would be thrilled to see it released in early August.



Whenever it happens to ship, sadly, I wouldn't put odds on regular people being able to buy one until 2022.


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## FrenchFry (Jun 25, 2021)

I am interested in the RF 14-35, but I also really hope that Canon has some surprise telephotos/supertelephotos in this release too, so we can put the R3 to use with some native fast glass!
14-35 will be great, but not exactly for any of the things R3 will be marketed for the most!


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## cinemanimal (Jun 25, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> who needs to run 120fps 4k that long? What are you filming full sports in 120?


Many people. Just because you don't see the need doesn't mean it isn't useful. Canon decided it was a good feature to put on the R5, C70, and C300mk3. You realize there are cameras that do 240fps, 1000fps and more.....


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## FrenchFry (Jun 25, 2021)

navastronia said:


> Whenever it happens to ship, sadly, I wouldn't put odds on regular people being able to buy one until 2022.


A manager at a store local to me said he was expecting an announcement in August with availability by October. Obviously the announcement guess was off by at least 5 weeks, but in a good way. Hoping these start getting to people in September-October.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 25, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> who needs to run 120fps 4k that long? What are you filming full sports in 120?


It is not that I need 120 FPS for long but I need it when I need it.
Before they added 1080 120p I was not sure that super slow motion would be available.
I am a hybrid shooter and can't always turn my camera off between takes.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 25, 2021)

cinemanimal said:


> Fingers crossed RAW 4k 120fps will full AF. That would make it a must buy for me!


RAW 4K would have to be heavily cropped from 30 MP.
Has anyone done the calculation of what RAW video would be from 30 MP?
It would have to be over 6K.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 25, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> I just kept thinking "please let it be more than 30MP". Now, here we are at 30.1.
> 
> But even if it is "just" 30MP, I am sure it will be fabulous. Just not quite as exciting for getting close to birds, but hopefully even better AF and image quality to make up for it.


I know no one camera can be ‘the one’ for everybody, but if the R3 is close to 30mp it hits the sweetest spot for me personaly.


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## dlee13 (Jun 25, 2021)

I hope the RF 16mm f/2.8 will be announced too!


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## LSXPhotog (Jun 25, 2021)

This camera is currently in tester's hands...how do I know? Well, Vanessa Joy broke embargo on her Instagram a few days ago and has since deleted the post. But it was her dancing with the R3 to the song "Can't Touch This" and would show the camera logo everytime the beat would stop. Funny, annoying, but also great to see because I QUICKLY made the financial moves I needed to make in order to purchase the camera and lens.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 25, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> Can anyone remind me of the advantages of "30.1mp backside illuminated image sensor (A Canon first)"?


In theory better iso performance and so increased DR. In reality the benefits of BSI are much bigger the smaller the sensor so the improvements in ISO performance and DR will be incremental not revolutionary.


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## jam05 (Jun 25, 2021)

Of course one can expect the unexpected and a fews surprises not listed. Would be nice to even see those TS lenses with AF make their debut. That would be eye popping. Canon is likely to have a wow element or two. Will be interesting to see the small nuances of backlit buttons etc.


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## jam05 (Jun 25, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> This camera is currently in tester's hands...how do I know? Well, Vanessa Joy broke embargo on her Instagram a few days ago and has since deleted the post. But it was her dancing with the R3 to the song "Can't Touch This" and would show the camera logo everytime the beat would stop. Funny, annoying, but also great to see because I QUICKLY made the financial moves I needed to make in order to purchase the camera and lens.


Sure hope those TS lenses with AF debut


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 25, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> This camera is currently in tester's hands...how do I know? Well, Vanessa Joy broke embargo on her Instagram a few days ago and has since deleted the post. But it was her dancing with the R3 to the song "Can't Touch This" and would show the camera logo everytime the beat would stop. Funny, annoying, but also great to see because I QUICKLY made the financial moves I needed to make in order to purchase the camera and lens.



I don't think showing the camera is breaking the embargo tho. She did not switch it on or share any specs.


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## h2so4 (Jun 25, 2021)

I don't think Vanessa broke any embargo her video is still up on You Tube.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 25, 2021)

jam05 said:


> Sure hope those TS lenses with AF debut


Honest question from a heavy T/S user, why?


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## LSXPhotog (Jun 25, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> Can anyone remind me of the advantages of "30.1mp backside illuminated image sensor (A Canon first)"?


This is a backside illuminated but, more importantly, it's a stacked sensor. This should result in performance on par with the Sony A1. I am hopeful we see it perform even better than the A1 - especially in low light. The main benefits to this stacked sensor design is extremely fast readout speeds - think minimal visual distortion with electronic shutter - and, on paper, backside illumination should reduce image noise. I stress "on paper" because that has been the idea from Sony for its sensors using this design, but it hasn't really demonstrated a monumental leap in the real world. I would argue that the stacked sensor readout speed is the most important aspect of all of this.


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## LSXPhotog (Jun 25, 2021)

h2so4 said:


> I don't think Vanessa broke any embargo her video is still up on You Tube.


So she deleted this off her Instagram... apparently forgot to delete from YouTube!


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## entoman (Jun 25, 2021)

So if the R3 is 31MP, that means the R1 must be 50MP?


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## usern4cr (Jun 25, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> In theory better iso performance and so increased DR. In reality the benefits of BSI are much bigger the smaller the sensor so the improvements in ISO performance and DR will be incremental not revolutionary.


True. The BSI also allows for stacked processing circuitry immediately behind the sensor since it would no longer block the sensor (as in the old FSI design), which allows for faster performance. In the future, it should also make it easier to manufacture higher MP sensors as well as QP sensors. Woo-hoo - Canon finally joined the BSI express world!


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## privatebydesign (Jun 25, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> This is a backside illuminated but, more importantly, it's a stacked sensor. This should result in performance on par with the Sony A1. I am hopeful we see it perform even better than the A1 - especially in low light. The main benefits to this stacked sensor design is extremely fast readout speeds - think minimal visual distortion with electronic shutter - and, on paper, backside illumination should reduce image noise. I stress "on paper" because that has been the idea from Sony for its sensors using this design, but it hasn't really demonstrated a monumental leap in the real world. I would argue that the stacked sensor readout speed is the most important aspect of all of this.


The R5 is already better than the A1. https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS R5,Sony ILCE-1


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## exige24 (Jun 25, 2021)

This should cost the same as an R5. They've sacrificed too many features straight across with added features in other areas.
A rip off if it costs substantially more.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 25, 2021)

exige24 said:


> This should cost the same as an R5. They've sacrificed too many features straight across with added features in other areas.
> A rip off if it costs substancally more.


You haven’t ever owned a 1 series camera have you....


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## LSXPhotog (Jun 25, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> The R5 is already better than the A1. https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS R5,Sony ILCE-1


If the entire camera's performance were based entirely on dynamic range at ISO 100, then yes. But the R5 is a whole different animal of incredible value when you compare those two. However, the A1 is near zero distortion electronic shutter performance camera that introduces a slew of benefits in its own right. The R3 will hopefully bring the rigid feeling I miss from my 1DXII and incredible electronic shutter performance.


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## Tremotino (Jun 25, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> I just kept thinking "please let it be more than 30MP". Now, here we are at 30.1.
> 
> But even if it is "just" 30MP, I am sure it will be fabulous. Just not quite as exciting for getting close to birds, but hopefully even better AF and image quality to make up for it.


How can you know? 
The camera has not even been announced yet.


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## lethiferous (Jun 25, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> You haven’t ever owned a 1 series camera have you....


I dont think R5 price point is proper but def not 6k. I have an a1 (sony bodies are cheap moment they've been out a month. I paid less than 6 for mine open box condition) there's much to be desired on that body in terms of physical things but other than that it is fantastic. I am more excited about a R1 then this, I don't really care for the 8k video on the R5 (only used it once when I got the body) looking at these specs, thinking about body. 5300 is probably the most I'd pay for it. I mean why do we no thave dual CF express on this thing? Seems like the canon cripple hammer is showing a bit, if this is to be at 6k.


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## Chig (Jun 25, 2021)

entoman said:


> So if the R3 is 31MP, that means the R1 must be 50MP?


I doubt it , more likely the same or less mp : I predict 24mp for the R1 which is going to be their flagship professional sports camera with probably twin Digic X processors and twin CF Express slots and maybe 40 fps, but they will probably make a high resolution R5 variant of perhaps 80-90mp


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## privatebydesign (Jun 25, 2021)

lethiferous said:


> I dont think R5 price point is proper but def not 6k. I have an a1 (sony bodies are cheap moment they've been out a month. I paid less than 6 for mine open box condition) there's much to be desired on that body in terms of physical things but other than that it is fantastic. I am more excited about a R1 then this, I don't really care for the 8k video on the R5 (only used it once when I got the body) looking at these specs, thinking about body. 5300 is probably the most I'd pay for it. I mean why do we no thave dual CF express on this thing? Seems like the canon cripple hammer is showing a bit, if this is to be at 6k.


Whatever Canon price the R3 at it will be sold out for months and months and it will hold its value until at least the R3 II announcement.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 25, 2021)

lethiferous said:


> I dont think R5 price point is proper but def not 6k. I have an a1 (sony bodies are cheap moment they've been out a month. I paid less than 6 for mine open box condition) there's much to be desired on that body in terms of physical things but other than that it is fantastic. I am more excited about a R1 then this, I don't really care for the 8k video on the R5 (only used it once when I got the body) looking at these specs, thinking about body. 5300 is probably the most I'd pay for it. I mean why do we no thave dual CF express on this thing? Seems like the canon cripple hammer is showing a bit, if this is to be at 6k.



Oh, this cripple hammer nonsense. Half of the people want double CF express and half want CF + SD. How do you please both? Nikon had the best solution, offer 2 versions of the camera with different card configurations.


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## lethiferous (Jun 25, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Whatever Canon price the R3 at it will be sold out for months and months and it will hold its value until at least the R3 II announcement.


Yeah I expect it to be sold out, I also don't expect that many units avail due to chip shortages but doesn't change my mind set on it. I will preorder one anyway because I want to play with the eye af, unless its some magical sauce I will just sell it off after a month and have played with it as a free rental.


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## Chig (Jun 25, 2021)

Very cool camera which will be brilliant for professional sports photographers, but for my bird photography I'd rather have an APS-c version of this with stacked BSI 30mp crop sensor for high pixel density to use with my EF100-400 ii lens and a similar price to the R5 perhaps


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## DBounce (Jun 25, 2021)

This one really came outta left field. Do I wait for the R1.. the R5C or just get this? It’s a tough call. Probably cheaper to switch to Leica… Sure you spend $9500 for the body… and another $9k on a single lens; but you keep those bodies for life. Hence the slogan, “Leica for life”. Canon and Sony you update yearly.


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## lethiferous (Jun 25, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Oh, this cripple hammer nonsense. Half of the people want double CF express and half want CF + SD. How do you please both? Nikon had the best solution, offer 2 versions of the camera with different card configurations.


This is a professional grade camera, even the 1dxmiii was dual CF express. A sports action camera 30 fps where one card writes slower than the other? Make sense to you? If you can afford a 6k body you can afford another CF express card, they are much cheaper these days.


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## Tremotino (Jun 25, 2021)

exige24 said:


> This should cost the same as an R5. They've sacrificed too many features straight across with added features in other areas.
> A rip off if it costs substancally more.


I think this should cost the same as a m6 mark ii. It has even lesser MP.


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## exige24 (Jun 25, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> You haven’t ever owned a 1 series camera have you....



It's not a 1 series camera. :|


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## SpaceGhost (Jun 25, 2021)

Based on the rumors, my main issue is the mismatched card slots. I'm stunned they'd do this on a 1 series/pro type body. Everything else is a great upgrade for me coming from the OG 1DX. I usually buy every other 1 series camera but skipped the 1DX mIII waiting for my mirrorless switch. This looks to be worthy. Of course, waiting for the release to double check rumor vs reality.


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## Elmonducky (Jun 25, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Looks like Canon is trying to steal a little bit of Nikon's thunder, seeing their announcement is reported to be June 28th!


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## privatebydesign (Jun 26, 2021)

exige24 said:


> It's not a 1 series camera. :|


It has a 1 series battery, 1 series build, 1 series weather sealing, 1 series AF, better than 1 series fps, and better than 1 series connectivity and WiFi. Call it what you will, it is a sub $7,000 1 series that takes RF lenses.


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## exige24 (Jun 26, 2021)

Btw, the era of DSLR 1 series cameras required the sacrifice of resolution to focus on speed and performance because of the state of technology at the time of their creation. That was the state of the art at that time. The best of what was possible. This is OBVIOUSLY not the case anymore. Please do not compare the two eras. Ridiculous.


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## exige24 (Jun 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> It has a 1 series battery, 1 series build, 1 series weather sealing, 1 series AF, better than 1 series fps, and better than 1 series connectivity and WiFi. Call it what you will, it is a sub $7,000 1 series that takes RF lenses.


I'm not calling it anything. Canon is. : |


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## Chig (Jun 26, 2021)

Elmonducky said:


> Looks like Canon is trying to steal a little bit of Nikon's thunder, seeing their announcement is reported to be June 28th!


Nikon ? Oh yeah I forgot about them , are they still around ?


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## privatebydesign (Jun 26, 2021)

exige24 said:


> Btw, the era of DSLR 1 series cameras required the sacrifice of resolution to focus on speed and performance because of the state of technology at the time of their creation. That was the state of the art at that time. The best of what was possible. This is OBVIOUSLY not the case anymore. Please do not compare the two eras. Ridiculous.


I am a 1 series owner and user, I prefer 20-30mp and have no client use for more. As it is I have my work on interstate billboards and plastered all over the walls of design centers and creative spaces at huge reproduction ratios you stand next to. 20mp works fine for all of it, 30mp will give me a bit extra but I don't need it for client work of any kind. I, personally, do not want the hassle and inevitable slowdowns and storage limitations associated with larger files for all my work, it is of zero benefit to me or my clients.

I would like a high mp camera for some personal archival work I want to do but it isn't a priority and the 30mp will probably be more than sufficient anyway. If it isn't I'll pick up a secondhand 5DS for nothing and sell it when I'm done for a few dollars less.

What is ridiculous is people presuming what is good for them is good for everybody.


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## exige24 (Jun 26, 2021)

DBounce said:


> This one really came outta left field. Do I wait for the R1.. the R5C or just get this? It’s a tough call. Probably cheaper to switch to Leica… Sure you spend $9500 for the body… and another $9k on a single lens; but you keep those bodies for life. Hence the slogan, “Leica for life”. Canon and Sony you update yearly.


Someone's forcing you to upgrade your Canon and Sony cameras?

Btw, the state of technology doesn't wait to reveal itself until Leica decides to release a camera. Haha As if.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 26, 2021)

exige24 said:


> I'm not calling it anything. Canon is. : |


Look up, did you see that? It was the point flying past you.

It might not have a 1 series name, but it doesn't have a 1 series price either. Suggesting it is overpriced because, R5, does not take into account that the 1 series option available to 1 series users is $6,499 and can't take RF lenses. When an R1 comes out it will be substantially more expensive that the R3.


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## lnz (Jun 26, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> who needs to run 120fps 4k that long? What are you filming full sports in 120?


Not long but sport under hot sun ...


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 26, 2021)

SpaceGhost said:


> Based on the rumors, my main issue is the mismatched card slots. I'm stunned they'd do this on a 1 series/pro type body.


You must have been stunned by every 1-series body except the 1D X and 1D X III.


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## addola (Jun 26, 2021)

Nice! A new accessory shoe! That means the possibility of a wire-free microphone mounted on the shoe mount like what Sony & Panasonic are doing. Using the 3.5mm mic input is a bit messy, and the setup is fragile... the mic jack on my M50 died for some reason. The shoe mount would be more durable, less messy with no wire getting in the way of the tilt LCD. Also the AF down to -7 EV (I assume @ f/1.2) is crazy!

I sure hope some of these features _trickle down _eventually to cheaper sub-$2500 cameras. I can see the new accessory mount making it to the successors to the R6 & EOS R.


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## exige24 (Jun 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> I am a 1 series owner and user, I prefer 20-30mp and have no client use for more. As it is I have my work on interstate billboards and plastered all over the walls of design centers and creative spaces at huge reproduction ratios you stand next to. 20mp works fine for all of it, 30mp will give me a bit extra but I don't need it for client work of any kind. I, personally, do not want the hassle and inevitable slowdowns and storage limitations associated with larger files for all my work, it is of zero benefit to me or my clients.
> 
> I would like a high mp camera for some personal archival work I want to do but it isn't a priority and the 30mp will probably be more than sufficient anyway. If it isn't I'll pick up a secondhand 5DS for nothing and sell it when I'm done for a few dollars less.
> 
> What is ridiculous is people presuming what is good for them is good for everybody.



Since a high resolution sensor would work nearly as well for you as a low res sensor, but not so the other way around for someone who needs the extra resolution, I think you're the one who is being "What I want only" here. Am I wrong?

It's like being happy that only F4 lenses are being made because you will never use f2.8.

Who celebrates LACK of capabilities?


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## Czardoom (Jun 26, 2021)

Chig said:


> Nikon ? Oh yeah I forgot about them , are they still around ?


They're still around for those of us who can't afford a $6,000..or a $3,900..or even a $2,400 FF camera.

My 2 card slot, IBIS, really good sensor Z5, that cost me $900 refurbished is serving me well so far.


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## Chig (Jun 26, 2021)

exige24 said:


> Since a high resolution sensor would work nearly as well for you as a low res sensor, but not so the other way around for someone who needs the extra resolution, I think you're the one who is being "What I want only" here. Am I wrong?
> 
> It's like being happy that only F4 lenses are being made because you will never use f2.8.


No , this R3 camera is very much a specialised camera made for pro sports so it's features are appropriate for this . Very high resolution only slows down the performance in every part of the work flow which is what the professionals definitely don't want , they want faster work flow to beat their competition


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## melgross (Jun 26, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Or you could re-read the OP where it states 30.1 MP BSI.


I got an e-mail from Canon Rumors several days ago stating that. I thought all the members here would have gotten it.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 26, 2021)

exige24 said:


> Since a high resolution sensor would work nearly as well for you as a low res sensor, but not so the other way around for someone who needs the extra resolution, I think you're the one who is being "What I want only" here. Am I wrong?
> 
> It's like being happy that only F4 lenses are being made because you will never use f2.8.
> 
> Who celebrates LACK of capabilities?


I don't understand where you got that from, a high resolution sensor would not work for me, let alone nearly as well! I do not want and have no need for more than 30mp for 100% of my paid work at this point.


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## melgross (Jun 26, 2021)

entoman said:


> So if the R3 is 31MP, that means the R1 must be 50MP?


Yes, if Canon considers this to be their top sports camera, and the R1 as their top studio camera.


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## exige24 (Jun 26, 2021)

Chig said:


> No , this R3 camera is very much a specialised camera made for pro sports so it's features are appropriate for this . Very high resolution only slows down the performance in every part of the work flow which is what the professionals definitely don't want , they want faster work flow to beat their competition


Like I said, this used to be the case. It is not anymore. Stop comparing technology from 10 years ago to today please. 

"I do not want 16 cores in my CPU because it does not have a threading technology that's only reason for ever existing was because the most cores we could fit in a CPU was 4." What? Hahahahahaha


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## privatebydesign (Jun 26, 2021)

SpaceGhost said:


> Based on the rumors, my main issue is the mismatched card slots. I'm stunned they'd do this on a 1 series/pro type body. Everything else is a great upgrade for me coming from the OG 1DX. I usually buy every other 1 series camera but skipped the 1DX mIII waiting for my mirrorless switch. This looks to be worthy. Of course, waiting for the release to double check rumor vs reality.


As a 1 series user I explained in another thread why I am happy with CFExpress and SD combination. I never shoot RAW to both cards but do have occasion to pass off jpegs to social media managers etc. For that use CFExpress is perfect for RAW and video capture, and the SD card perfect to hand over in real time with jpegs to pretty much anybody. SD cards, card readers, and card slots in tablets and notebooks are ubiquitous.

The more I see this darn R3 the more I think Canon have been watching what I am actually doing and making a camera to do that, rather than listen to the childish wishlist I'd spew if I was interviewed by a Canon product management team. The trouble I will have is getting one in stock....

P.S. I keep referring to myself as a 1 series user, I only do this to show relevance, I truly believe this camera is aimed at 1 series holdouts (of which I am one) and can't get over how relevant it is to my specific uses. We have to move away from this idea that all of us should see good in every camera release, what I find appealing and useful others will abhor, that isn't an issue as far as I can see because we have completely different uses.


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## exige24 (Jun 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> I don't understand where you got that from, a high resolution sensor would not work for me, let alone nearly as well! I do not want and have no need for more than 30mp for 100% of my paid work at this point.


That's like saying an f 2.8 lens that wouldn't work for you only an f4 lens would. What? Lol


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## privatebydesign (Jun 26, 2021)

exige24 said:


> Like I said, this used to be the case. It is not anymore. Stop comparing technology from 10 years ago to today please


Technology is different from numbers. If people who are honest with themselves say they don't want or need more than x, who are you to say they shouldn't complain because it can be done they just have to suck it up and buy more?

People that don't want or need 8k or 45mp have an R6 why is that an issue? The R6 is current technology but doesn't have the numbers the R5 has, does that mean we shouldn't be allowed to buy it?


----------



## privatebydesign (Jun 26, 2021)

exige24 said:


> That's like saying an f 2.8 lens that wouldn't work for you only an f4 lens would. What? Lol


No it is nothing like that at all! if I have a 10TB library why should I have to have a 20TB library instead when I have no practical use for any of that additional information. 

What you are saying is we should all only be allowed to buy and shoot in 8k because it can be done, even if we have no use. for anything over 1080. What? Lol....


----------



## Chig (Jun 26, 2021)

exige24 said:


> Like I said, this used to be the case. It is not anymore. Stop comparing technology from 10 years ago to today please


But you're wrong big files :
slow down the camera - AF, fps, tracking , in camera processing , writing to the memory card , produce unnecessary heat
slow down file transfer
slow down editing
slow down file uploads
Make no useful difference to the final image for professional sports photography


----------



## exige24 (Jun 26, 2021)

Chig said:


> But you're wrong big files :
> slow down the camera - AF, fps, tracking , in camera processing , writing to the memory card , produce unnecessary heat
> slow down file transfer
> slow down editing
> ...



It's really not that, because all of that stuff got better, cheaper and faster too. You're not going to win this one dude.

Let's be truthful here. You're arguing for lack of capability for your own personal needs and desires. Understandable, but if they're only exist one camera, is a bit selfish. Or at least very short-sighted to say the least


----------



## Chig (Jun 26, 2021)

exige24 said:


> It's really not that, because all of that stuff got better and cheaper too. You're not going to win this one dude


Well Canon obviously think this is the case which is why this professional sports camera has only 30mp and it's capable of 30fps rather than only 20fps like the R5 and it's no accident that they're the number one camera company selling more cameras than Sony and Nikon combined .
Engineering is full of compromises and to make a camera class leading in terms of speed lower resolution helps
To make a super high resolution camera then lower speeds help.
Technology has improved but physics hasn't : smaller files can be processed faster than larger files .
Try using a medium format camera for high speed action


----------



## Diltiazem (Jun 26, 2021)

I think for the vast majority, 30 MP will be enough. And there is "Super Resolution" from Adobe and similar from others to increase resolution if needed. This kind of computational image processing will only get better and will make high-resolution cameras mostly unnecessary.


----------



## AEWest (Jun 26, 2021)

Chig said:


> I doubt it , more likely the same or less mp : I predict 24mp for the R1 which is going to be their flagship professional sports camera with probably twin Digic X processors and twin CF Express slots and maybe 40 fps, but they will probably make a high resolution R5 variant of perhaps 80-90mp


It wouldn't make sense to follow up a low-ish resolution pro body sports camera with an even lower resolution pro body sports camera. 

The Nikon Z9 will likely be 50mp, 8K but with a D6 style pro body unlike Sony A1. Canon won't fight the Z9 with an R5 type camera. A high resolution R1 is more likely, with the R3 being their top sports camera.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 26, 2021)

exige24 said:


> That's like saying an f 2.8 lens that wouldn't work for you only an f4 lens would. What? Lol


There are many reasons why a 300/2.8 won’t work and a 300/4 will. Size, weight and cost, for example. The same logic applies to a 70-200 or a 24-70 zoom.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jun 26, 2021)

exige24 said:


> It's really not that, because all of that stuff got better, cheaper and faster too. You're not going to win this one dude.
> 
> Let's be truthful here. You're arguing for lack of capability for your own personal needs and desires. Understandable, but if they're only exist one camera, is a bit selfish. Or at least very short-sighted to say the least


That has to be the most ill conceived least knowledgable and ridiculous comment I've ever seen here, and I've been here a long time and seen a lot of stupidity. Well done, you have won the internet with your vast knowledge of what everybody else needs.


----------



## Chig (Jun 26, 2021)

melgross said:


> Yes, if Canon considers this to be their top sports camera, and the R1 as their top studio camera.


I think Canon will consider the R1 to be their Flagship professional sports camera as they've already stated that the R3 is not their flagship model and is not a replacement for the 1DXiii .
Canon will make a high resolution model based on the R5 but they won't call it R1 : perhaps R5S or R5SR and it may have 80-90mp.

I predict the R1 will have :
24mp stacked BSI sensor
40fps 
dual Digic X processors
dual CF Express card slots


----------



## danfaz (Jun 26, 2021)

I'm selling everything except one or two lenses to get this!


----------



## bergstrom (Jun 26, 2021)

Delicious. But it would be at least 5 years before I can afford one.


----------



## scottburgess (Jun 26, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Dual card slot SD & CFExpress



Absolutely my least favorite "feature." Please, Canon, get rid of the SD slots and just go dual CFExpress! If I'm spending several thou for a camera, I'm not going cheap on the cards.


----------



## AEWest (Jun 26, 2021)

Chig said:


> I think Canon will consider the R1 to be their Flagship professional sports camera as they've already stated that the R3 is not their flagship model and is not a replacement for the 1DXiii .
> Canon will make a high resolution model based on the R5 but they won't call it R1 : perhaps R5S or R5SR and it may have 80-90mp.
> 
> I predict the R1 will have :
> ...


Canon also said at introduction that the R5 was NOT a replacement for the 5DIV, and yet it is.

They want to protect the 1Dx3's market value by calling it the flagship, but how can a camera with an obsolete mount be considered a flagship? The R3 will beat the 1Dx3 in almost every way, so it will be the flagship until the R1 arrives.


----------



## lnz (Jun 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> That has to be the most ill conceived least knowledgable and ridiculous comment I've ever seen here, and I've been here a long time and seen a lot of stupidity. Well done, you have won the internet with your vast knowledge of what everybody else needs.


Stop replying this guy, it's just a nasty troll...


----------



## SnowMiku (Jun 26, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> So she deleted this off her Instagram... apparently forgot to delete from YouTube!


Imagine how funny that would be if she dropped it while doing that dance haha!


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Jun 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> The R5 is already better than the A1. https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS R5,Sony ILCE-1
> 
> View attachment 198596


With Canon's baked in RAW NR. There is bugger all difference between their DR. DR is no longer even a concern these days.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Jun 26, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> This is a backside illuminated but, more importantly, it's a stacked sensor. This should result in performance on par with the Sony A1. I am hopeful we see it perform even better than the A1 - especially in low light. The main benefits to this stacked sensor design is extremely fast readout speeds - think minimal visual distortion with electronic shutter - and, on paper, backside illumination should reduce image noise. I stress "on paper" because that has been the idea from Sony for its sensors using this design, but it hasn't really demonstrated a monumental leap in the real world. I would argue that the stacked sensor readout speed is the most important aspect of all of this.


Well we have no idea how fast it's scan speed is, the A1 is 1/240, the A9 1/160. The R3 will be a first gen stacked sensor, itmay have much lower DR than the A1, more like the A9. The faster clocked ADC's caused more read noise in the A9 which is why it's DR was only on par with the 5DIV. The A1 is more like 14.5EV. I'll be happy with anyhting over 13.5EV DR from the R3 and 1/150scan speed, but hopefully they can do 1/200 or faster.


----------



## melgross (Jun 26, 2021)

Chig said:


> I think Canon will consider the R1 to be their Flagship professional sports camera as they've already stated that the R3 is not their flagship model and is not a replacement for the 1DXiii .
> Canon will make a high resolution model based on the R5 but they won't call it R1 : perhaps R5S or R5SR and it may have 80-90mp.
> 
> I predict the R1 will have :
> ...


We don’t know that. I don’t see a 24mp camera as making much sense the way technology is going.


----------



## jam05 (Jun 26, 2021)

scottburgess said:


> Absolutely my least favorite "feature." Please, Canon, get rid of the SD slots and just go dual CFExpress! If I'm spending several thou for a camera, I'm not going cheap on the cards.


SDexpress continuous write speed will probably be as fast as any of your CFexpress cards or when Xsfering to a PC. Canon is on the memory card committee. They are fully aware of what will be happening in the memory card arena. There is only 4 manufacturer cards compatible and tested with Canon's CFexpress bus for high resolution video that wont give video recording flags. Basically a crap shoot. And they arent sold locally at Best Buy either
And lets not even debate the card reader crap. Companies struggling to sell cameras and then consumers have to search for card readers.



Canon Knowledge Base - Compatible Cards (EOS R5)


----------



## Danglin52 (Jun 26, 2021)

exige24 said:


> It's really not that, because all of that stuff got better, cheaper and faster too. You're not going to win this one dude.
> 
> Let's be truthful here. You're arguing for lack of capability for your own personal needs and desires. Understandable, but if they're only exist one camera, is a bit selfish. Or at least very short-sighted to say the least


I don’t really care either way, BUT the reality is that every process requires compute cycles and power resulting in a series of trade offs. While you are correct we have new technology it does not provide unlimited capabilities. A Lot of that new compute power has been absorbed by things like AF, AI, iBIS, etc, etc. You are looking at a component because you place value on resolution and forgetting these are complex system EFFECTIVELY delivering capabilities we only dreamed about 10 years back. It is also clear you may not understand market segmentation. People will vote with their dollars when the product is released and you have 1 (2?) votes like other buyers.

BTW - If the specs are accurate, I will pre-order the R3 on announcement. My personal threshold for a quick decision was 30mp or more sensor to allow some crop space. I can always cancel if I don’t like the full details and reviews. I decided not to buy the 1dx III because live view shooting provided a hint of what was next in mirrorless. i sold my 1dx II and made the full jump to R5 / RF Lenses. I also made that trade off from f2.8 to f4 glass to save size/weight. I held off buying a second body R waiting on the R1. Sounds like the R3 will work for now. I also love the 1 series type form factors. While grips help, a 1 series has a different feel.


----------



## frjmacias (Jun 26, 2021)

I’ve been waiting for these news for weeks. Now I can finally sleep like a baby and dream of a life where I make enough money to afford a beast like this.


----------



## AEWest (Jun 26, 2021)

Availability will be a key question mark. The agencies and CPS members will likely get theirs first, the rest of us low lifes will have to wait.

Good old Tony Northrup doesn't think we'll see the R3 untill 2022, maybe even the second half. That sounds way too long a wait, may as well not announce it then. I believe late fall of this year is most likely.


----------



## FrenchFry (Jun 26, 2021)

Tremotino said:


> How can you know?
> The camera has not even been announced yet.


It is the first bullet in the list of specs in the OP.


----------



## Chig (Jun 26, 2021)

melgross said:


> We don’t know that. I don’t see a 24mp camera as making much sense the way technology is going.


Just my guess but a lot of professional sports shooters would prefer 40fps and 24mp (or even 45fps and 20mp) over 30fps and 30mp as capturing the exact crucial moment like a bat hitting a ball or a diver just entering the water is more important to them than a small gain in resolution which has no noticeable effect on the final image but does slow down your workflow.


----------



## masterpix (Jun 26, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Two things I am missing in this spec, GPS and ISO range. Well, three things, also the cash to get one.


----------



## Danglin52 (Jun 26, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Availability will be a key question mark. The agencies and CPS members will likely get theirs first, the rest of us low lifes will have to wait.
> 
> Good old Tony Northrup doesn't think we'll see the R3 untill 2022, maybe even the second half. That sounds way too long a wait, may as well not announce it then. I believe late fall of this year is most likely.


They did the development announcement, so this should be a full product announcement. Hope by late August to mid-September since I am heading to YNP.


----------



## Chig (Jun 26, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Canon also said at introduction that the R5 was NOT a replacement for the 5DIV, and yet it is.
> 
> They want to protect the 1Dx3's market value by calling it the flagship, but how can a camera with an obsolete mount be considered a flagship? The R3 will beat the 1Dx3 in almost every way, so it will be the flagship until the R1 arrives.


Well the 1DXiii has better auto focus acquisition speed than R5 and who knows how it will compare to the R3.
The R5 and R6 can quite often really struggle to "see" an object so you need to prefocus or even manually focus before they lock on and start tracking it whereas top DSLRs have no trouble with this usually.


----------



## Chig (Jun 26, 2021)

I still have to wait 3 whole days !
Then I have to wait for all the You Tube reviews and then decide it's very cool and would be great but I can't afford it and my wife will say no anyway.


----------



## unfocused (Jun 26, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> There are many reasons why a 300/2.8 won’t work and a 300/4 will. Size, weight and cost, for example. The same logic applies to a 70-200 or a 24-70 zoom.


I recall a Peter Reed Miller video where he said he uses the 70-200 f4 because of the lighter weight.


----------



## rontele7 (Jun 26, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Canon also said at introduction that the R5 was NOT a replacement for the 5DIV, and yet it is.
> 
> They want to protect the 1Dx3's market value by calling it the flagship, but how can a camera with an obsolete mount be considered a flagship? The R3 will beat the 1Dx3 in almost every way, so it will be the flagship until the R1 arrives.


EF mount is still superior, because it has the most native glass available by a very wide margin.

Also, for video, EF lenses will always be better than RF lenses. The EF to RF mounts with ND are a game changer, and ensure that video shooters won’t ever be buying RF glass. Much better to have an ND wheel between an EF lens and RF camera than a RF lens without the ability to control ND. Same is true for cine glass, why buy RF when you can use EF mount lenses with an ND wheel on the back end?


----------



## Finn (Jun 26, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> RAW 4K would have to be heavily cropped from 30 MP.
> Has anyone done the calculation of what RAW video would be from 30 MP?
> It would have to be over 6K.


Yeah I’m super interested in this aspect of the camera. The 4K oversample will look great fr

There are three options for RAW:

4K RAW - would have to be cropped heavily (this is the worse option)

6K RAW - smaller crop but still not ideal

Native RAW - No crop.


----------



## unfocused (Jun 26, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> You must have been stunned by every 1-series body except the 1D X and 1D X III.


Said this before, if someone is writing to the second card slot as a backup, just write jpg to the second card. No risk of losing the work, but no slowdown either (or at least minimal slowdown) if you are writing sequentially to both cards then wait for a break in the action and put in a new card in the first slot. People act like this is some insurmountable challenge.


----------



## AEWest (Jun 26, 2021)

rontele7 said:


> EF mount is still superior, because it has the most native glass available by a very wide margin.
> 
> Also, for video, EF lenses will always be better than RF lenses. The EF to RF mounts with ND are a game changer, and ensure that video shooters won’t ever be buying RF glass. Much better to have an ND wheel between an EF lens and RF camera than a RF lens without the ability to control ND. Same is true for cine glass, why buy RF when you can use EF mount lenses with an ND wheel on the back end?


RF mount can accept EF glass, the reverse is not true. Therefore the RF mount is superior - you get the best of both worlds.


----------



## xiaohuaa (Jun 26, 2021)

lnz said:


> Stop replying this guy, it's just a nasty troll...


No he’s not, I don’t agree with some things he said but he made some valid points


----------



## Cryhavoc (Jun 26, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> I just kept thinking "please let it be more than 30MP". Now, here we are at 30.1.
> 
> But even if it is "just" 30MP, I am sure it will be fabulous. Just not quite as exciting for getting close to birds, but hopefully even better AF and image quality to make up for it.


If you want to get real close to birds with the R3, Canon will happily sell you some nice telephoto glass coupled with a tc for just a few bucks more


----------



## FrenchFry (Jun 26, 2021)

Cryhavoc said:


> If you want to get real close to birds with the R3, Canon will happily sell you some nice telephoto glass coupled with a tc for just a few bucks more


Looking forward to getting some! Just not anything announced so far. Looking for the rumored gems like a lightweight 500mm, 400 DO, etc. I don't have the strength (or budget) to get the lenses coming out in July 8th, amazing as they will be.


----------



## Chig (Jun 26, 2021)

Cryhavoc said:


> If you want to get real close to birds with the R3, Canon will happily sell you some nice telephoto glass coupled with a tc for just a few bucks more


Even better if Canon makes an R7 crop sensor version of this camera


----------



## FrenchFry (Jun 26, 2021)

Chig said:


> Even better if Canon makes an R7 crop sensor version of this camera


That would be nice! It might cost close to the price of an R5, but it would be worth it!


----------



## xiaohuaa (Jun 26, 2021)

Finn said:


> Yeah I’m super interested in this aspect of the camera. The 4K oversample will look great fr
> 
> There are three options for RAW:
> 
> ...


Half way on my calculation I realized 30.1MP is the same number of pixel on Eos R if it’s the number of effective pixels. So the crop for 1:1 4K will be 1.74 as Eos R, 1.17 crop for 6K raw and Natuve raw is 7K.


----------



## xiaohuaa (Jun 26, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> That would be nice! It might cost close to the price of an R5, but it would be worth it!


Are you taking about sub $4K for an aps-c camera?


----------



## FrenchFry (Jun 26, 2021)

xiaohuaa said:


> Are you taking about sub $4K for an aps-c camera?


My dream APS-C camera would probably cost close to the R5 as it would have high megapixels on a BSI stacked sensor with quad pixel AF, deep learning, etc in a rugged body like the R3. So yeah, sub $4k by maybe not sub $3k. Obviously I would prefer for the cost to be lower, but this dream camera would have all the highest specs so it would have a high cost (again, a camera I am making up, not something I expect to see anytime soon.)


----------



## Bahrd (Jun 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Honest question from a heavy T/S user, why?


I recently combined 6D with TS-E 90 as a video conference camera. For fun initially, but now I like more and more the ability to control a DoF plane.


entoman said:


> So if the R3 is 31MP, that means the R1 must be 50MP?


I think so. The camera with a "1" in its name has to have a 8k capability nowadays... 


Elmonducky said:


> Looks like Canon is trying to steal a little bit of Nikon's thunder, seeing their announcement is reported to be June 28th!


O, that explains why a 30mpx camera with 30 fps is not introduced in June, 30th!


----------



## sanj (Jun 26, 2021)

SnowMiku said:


> Imagine how funny that would be if she dropped it while doing that dance haha!


Let her enjoy.


----------



## Franklyok (Jun 26, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> This is a backside illuminated but, more importantly, it's a stacked sensor. This should result in performance on par with the Sony A1. I am hopeful we see it perform even better than the A1 - especially in low light. The main benefits to this stacked sensor design is extremely fast readout speeds - think minimal visual distortion with electronic shutter - and, on paper, backside illumination should reduce image noise. I stress "on paper" because that has been the idea from Sony for its sensors using this design, but it hasn't really demonstrated a monumental leap in the real world. I would argue that the stacked sensor readout speed is the most important aspect of all of this.


So 15+ stops of DR , hopefully.


----------



## DJPatte (Jun 26, 2021)

Can anyone explain the difference between “internal RAW video” and “RAW internal movie recording” stated in the post..? It’s just a typo right..?


----------



## Cyborx (Jun 26, 2021)

Red Dog said:


> Fingers crossed for a reasonable selling price. After forking out for the 1dx mkiii last year the chances of persuading the boss that this is a must have could be difficult especially if its over £5k.


Forget it bro! It will be 5999 euro’s. R1 will be 10k euro’s. Canon will always shock you with +20% on top of what is reasonable, when it comes to pricing.


----------



## Cyborx (Jun 26, 2021)

Make this one affordable Canon!!!!


----------



## Chig (Jun 26, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> My dream APS-C camera would probably cost close to the R5 as it would have high megapixels on a BSI stacked sensor with quad pixel AF, deep learning, etc in a rugged body like the R3. So yeah, sub $4k by maybe not sub $3k. Obviously I would prefer for the cost to be lower, but this dream camera would have all the highest specs so it would have a high cost (again, a camera I am making up, not something I expect to see anytime soon.)


Me too , and it would sell pretty well as it would be better than any other camera for wildlife especially birds so even if it's really expensive it would be worth the money to me at least (although my wife would say no way , what's wrong with the camera you've got ?)


----------



## Chig (Jun 26, 2021)

xiaohuaa said:


> Are you taking about sub $4K for an aps-c camera?


Yep, why not ? It would be much better than the R3 for birding so that would be great value for money


----------



## fox40phil (Jun 26, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Oh, this cripple hammer nonsense. Half of the people want double CF express and half want CF + SD. How do you please both? Nikon had the best solution, offer 2 versions of the camera with different card configurations.


Best is to have both card types for each slots! Like in the Sony A1! This is the best!


----------



## Chig (Jun 26, 2021)

Cyborx said:


> Make this one affordable Canon!!!!


Don't hold your breath , Canon and all the other camera companies have to make the most margin they can on all these amazing cameras which cost a fortune to develop and sell in pretty small numbers


----------



## Proscribo (Jun 26, 2021)

Mr Majestyk said:


> Well we have no idea how fast it's scan speed is, the A1 is 1/240, the A9 1/160. The R3 will be a first gen stacked sensor, itmay have much lower DR than the A1, more like the A9. The faster clocked ADC's caused more read noise in the A9 which is why it's DR was only on par with the 5DIV. The A1 is more like 14.5EV. I'll be happy with anyhting over 13.5EV DR from the R3 and 1/150scan speed, but hopefully they can do 1/200 or faster.


Uhh we can't really know which "gen" of stacked sensor it is unless Canon tells us. Yeah it's a Canon first, but if it is similar to the latest large Sony stacked sensors calling it "1st gen" is kinda misleading. If I had to guess then I'd say it's probably slower to read than a1 but since it has less pixels full scan time would be similar (I feel being able to match mechanical shutter is kinda important).


----------



## Cyborx (Jun 26, 2021)

Chig said:


> Don't hold your breath , Canon and all the other camera companies have to make the most margin they can on all these amazing cameras which cost a fortune to develop and sell in pretty small numbers


Do you know why they sell in small numbers? Because Sony has made a mirrorless 50mp camera years ago.


----------



## Baxter2020 (Jun 26, 2021)

Yeah , and do you use the same computer the Netflix feature film editors use for your processing ? LOL


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 26, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> This camera is currently in tester's hands...how do I know? Well, Vanessa Joy broke embargo on her Instagram a few days ago and has since deleted the post. But it was her dancing with the R3 to the song "Can't Touch This" and would show the camera logo everytime the beat would stop. Funny, annoying, but also great to see because I QUICKLY made the financial moves I needed to make in order to purchase the camera and lens.


It makes me think that development was underway before the Nikon Z9 announcement so 8K may have never been considered.
If R5c is under development then it makes sense to not consider 8K for the R3 at all.
I have no doubt that the R1 is under development but products in early testing usually have code names.
People who were testing the R3 could have thought they were testing the R1 and some of the rumors may have gotten crossed.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 26, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> Yeah, I had to block some morons here who claim that the EF-mount bodies and lenses are still for sale therefore they're not obsolete. Since when has a viable camera line not had a single new product for three years straight, while another camera line by the same manufacturer has had five bodies and a dozen lenses?


The best-selling ILC in Japan last month (and the month before) was the EOS 250D / SL3, a DSLR that launched 2 years ago. Is everyone buying all those obsolete cameras a moron? Of course not. But then, who is? Yeah.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> In theory better iso performance and so increased DR. In reality the benefits of BSI are much bigger the smaller the sensor so the improvements in ISO performance and DR will be incremental not revolutionary.


BSI is a fancy way of saying that most of the electronics are on the side that does not get exposed to light.
It is counterintuitive to me because I think of the side that captures light as the front side.
With the electronics out of the way, there is less interference to the photosites which actually capture the image.
A stacked sensor has to be BSI.
Having extra layers blocking the photosites who not really be feasible.



neuroanatomist said:


> The best-selling ILC in Japan last month was the EOS 250D / SL3, which launched 2 years ago. Is everyone buying all those obsolete cameras a moron? If not, who is? Yeah.


Rebel T7 was the best-selling in the USA the last time that I checked.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 26, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> Yeah, I had to block


Yes, the forum blocking feature lets you automatically ignore people who counter your bogus claims with facts and data. It’s very useful for people who cannot admit when they’re wrong.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 26, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> So she deleted this off her Instagram... apparently forgot to delete from YouTube!


Maybe she did not get permission from MC Hammer.
YouTube would just demonetize the video and divert the ad revenue to him unless he requests it be taken down.


----------



## rbielefeld (Jun 26, 2021)

Chig said:


> I think Canon will consider the R1 to be their Flagship professional sports camera as they've already stated that the R3 is not their flagship model and is not a replacement for the 1DXiii .
> Canon will make a high resolution model based on the R5 but they won't call it R1 : perhaps R5S or R5SR and it may have 80-90mp.
> 
> I predict the R1 will have :
> ...


I think the R1 will be around 50mp given the Sony a1 and Nikon Z9 are/will be in that range. The R1 will have to directly compete with the a1 and Z9. However, I also think the R1 will have a variable resolution option, so you can shoot in lower res if that is what you want/need. With dual processors and a stacked BSI sensor a 50mp R1 will be able to do everything a 20mp 1DxIII can do and more and give the photographer more options in doing it. Just my opinion. We will see in a couple of years.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 26, 2021)

entoman said:


> So if the R3 is 31MP, that means the R1 must be 50MP?


Not if there is also an R5c.
I think R1 would have to be at least 60MP to differentiate.
I know R6 and 1DX Mark III have the same sensor but they are in different leagues.


----------



## PerKr (Jun 26, 2021)

Liking these specs. Seems to fit my needs, most of them, in a main camera, like a glove. For anyone complaining about the resolution; do you remember when Nikon released the D700? At a time when FF went to 20+ MP they went back to 12MP and everyone loved it. 

Thinking this also serves to test the waters with things like eye-controlled AF for the R1. Which will likely blow the competition away. 

Too bad serious photography magazines died in favour of click-focused, mostly brand-biased, crap online but I'm still looking forward to reading the reviews.


----------



## Bahrd (Jun 26, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> With the electronics out of the way, there is less interference to the photosites which actually capture the image.


Also, the electronics in the front-illuminated sensors needs to be shielded from light in order to work properly.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 26, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Half of the people want double CF express and half want CF + SD.


Some people have it in their minds that both slots have to match no matter what.
Sony found a way to please both sides but they did so by choosing an inferior yet more expensive CF Express type.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 26, 2021)

lethiferous said:


> This is a professional grade camera, even the 1dxmiii was dual CF express. A sports action camera 30 fps where one card writes slower than the other? Make sense to you? If you can afford a 6k body you can afford another CF express card, they are much cheaper these days.


1) 1DX Mark II was a professional grade with 1 CFast and 11 CF Express Type B slot.
2) R3 is considered by Canon to be a prosumer camera like the R5 is.


----------



## Finn (Jun 26, 2021)

xiaohuaa said:


> Half way on my calculation I realized 30.1MP is the same number of pixel on Eos R if it’s the number of effective pixels. So the crop for 1:1 4K will be 1.74 as Eos R, 1.17 crop for 6K raw and Natuve raw is 7K.


It has the R5 processor so I’m going to say it will offer at least 6K RAW with a small crop in Canon RAW Lite. For video shooters that is pretty exciting, imho. No other cameras are offering internal RAW besides RED Komodo in this price range.
Since it is a stacked sensor the readout will be fast, rolling shutter minimized, and the RAW image will probably look pretty damn good.

R3 shaping up to be an exciting camera. Finally a pro level video quality and features in a 1DX style body and mirrorless with tracking DPAF.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 26, 2021)

Finn said:


> No other cameras are offering internal RAW besides RED Komodo in this price range.


BMPCC 4K, 6K, and 6K Pro.
URSA Mini 4.6K Pro
C200
1DX Mark III
multiple ZCAM E2 models


----------



## tcphoto (Jun 26, 2021)

My heart says, yes but my pandemic budget asks, how much is a kidney worth?


----------



## David - Sydney (Jun 26, 2021)

jam05 said:


> SDexpress continuous write speed will probably be as fast as any of your CFexpress cards or when Xsfering to a PC. Canon is on the memory card committee. They are fully aware of what will be happening in the memory card arena. There is only 4 manufacturer cards compatible and tested with Canon's CFexpress bus for high resolution video that wont give video recording flags. Basically a crap shoot. And they arent sold locally at Best Buy either
> And lets not even debate the card reader crap. Companies struggling to sell cameras and then consumers have to search for card readers.
> 
> 
> ...


SD Express spec 8 can handle 4gb/s ie the same as 4 PCIe lanes. CFe Type A = 1GB/s, Type B = 2GB/s, Type C (much bigger ) = 4GB/s.... but Lexar's write speed for the first SD Express card is 400MB/s to be released in 2022. 

So yes, SD Express can be fast but there aren't controllers and cards that will be equivalent for a long time. SD Express will also not be available locally except in specialist stores.

There are 4 officially supported OEMs for Type B but users report that the smaller Sandisk also work. Only Sony produces the CFe Type A and canon would be crazy to rely on Sony memory for a Canon flagship camera.

The question is really what speed is needed and what heat is generated? Canon RAW light options can reduce the bit rate by ~half. Sony got their 4:2:0 oversampled 8K down to 400MB/s so they didn't need CFe Type B.

So what choice is there for Canon? Dual CFe Type B would clearly work and there should be space in the R3 body for them if they wanted to include them. UHS-II SD is the only other choice but they are significantly slower than CFe B and slightly cheaper now for the same capacity and could become cheaper again over time.


----------



## David - Sydney (Jun 26, 2021)

xiaohuaa said:


> Half way on my calculation I realized 30.1MP is the same number of pixel on Eos R if it’s the number of effective pixels. So the crop for 1:1 4K will be 1.74 as Eos R, 1.17 crop for 6K raw and Natuve raw is 7K.


Hopefully the lower resolutions will be available oversampled without overheating times. Will Canon remove the 30 minute limit??


----------



## David - Sydney (Jun 26, 2021)

fox40phil said:


> Best is to have both card types for each slots! Like in the Sony A1! This is the best!


Only if you want to record lower bit rate high-res video. Canon's 8K raw is ~2600Mb/s and only CFe Type B can handle that. Canon's lowest 8K bit rate after the latest firmware is 8K UHD IPB light @ 340MB/s.
Sony's 8K recording speed is ~400MB/s
Can you tell the difference? That is the real question and if not then Canon has over specified their bus/card system and created the overheating issues that were pounced on by detractors.


----------



## David - Sydney (Jun 26, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Some people have it in their minds that both slots have to match no matter what.
> Sony found a way to please both sides but they did so by choosing an inferior yet more expensive CF Express type.


With one supplier and has supply difficulties. The UHS-II/Type A combined card slot is a nice design though.


----------



## Finn (Jun 26, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> BMPCC 4K, 6K, and 6K Pro.
> URSA Mini 4.6K Pro
> C200
> 1DX Mark III
> multiple ZCAM E2 models


Ok, yes. I should have been more specific. Those cameras are great, especially Blackmagic for the price. But R3 offers excellent AF and weather ceiling in one body without need for rigging. 

1DXIII is a DSLR photo camera. I don’t like to be stuck looking at a small screen on the back for video.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 26, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Only if you want to record lower bit rate high-res video. Canon's 8K raw is ~2600MB/s firehose and only CFe Type B can handle that. Canon's lowest 8K bit rate after the latest firmware is 8K UHD IPB light @ 340MB/s.
> Sony's 8K recording speed is ~400MB/s
> Can you tell the difference? That is the real question and if not then Canon has over specified their bus/card system and created the overheating issues that were pounced on by detractors.


The bitrate discussions fascinate me.
I used to be able to tell who came from film and who came from video.
The video folks would complain about the cost of media because they were used to paying next to nothing and favored lower bit rates.
The film people could not believe how cheap the media was compared to film so they favored higher bit rates.
Now we have people who never used either and are kind of in the middle.
Canon really threw the kitchen sink at the R5 and it goes from IBP Light to full Canon RAW.
It does not surprise me when people buy inexpensive cameras and focus on the cost of media but I wanted to slap everyone who bought $80K US RED cameras and complained about the cost of RED mags.
I only didn't because I suspect they would not cheap out on lawyers.


----------



## reef58 (Jun 26, 2021)

exige24 said:


> It's really not that, because all of that stuff got better, cheaper and faster too. You're not going to win this one dude.
> 
> Let's be truthful here. You're arguing for lack of capability for your own personal needs and desires. Understandable, but if they're only exist one camera, is a bit selfish. Or at least very short-sighted to say the least





SwissFrank said:


> Yeah, I had to block some morons here who claim that the EF-mount bodies and lenses are still for sale therefore they're not obsolete. Since when has a viable camera line not had a single new product for three years straight, while another camera line by the same manufacturer has had five bodies and a dozen lenses?
> 
> In many ways even the R beat the 1Dx3, even. Much less the R3.


Having owned both I can say for me the R didn't have anything over the 1DX3. It is smaller and lighter. If you like shooting video through the viewfinder that is a check for the R but every other category the 1dx3 is superior, but I am sure you will assume I am making this up since it can't possibly be true.


----------



## unfocused (Jun 26, 2021)

Cyborx said:


> Do you know why they sell in small numbers? Because Sony has made a mirrorless 50mp camera years ago.


Get with the times man, being a Sony troll is so five years ago.


----------



## FrenchFry (Jun 26, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


If the official launch is in 3 days, I am puzzled that there is still no countdown or information about it on the Canon websites. For the R5 it seemed like there were all sorts of events planned to hype it up. If you want your launch to grab headlines, wouldn't you let everyone know there is a launch in the first place?


----------



## koenkooi (Jun 26, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> There's technical workarounds. An 80MP camera could easily have a down-sample setting that outputs only 20MP raw for people who want that. Or forget the DNG and just use a JPG file if you're so much more about file size/speed than IQ.


If it’s downsampled it isn’t RAW anymore, per definition.


----------



## koenkooi (Jun 26, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Only if you want to record lower bit rate high-res video. Canon's 8K raw is ~2600MB/s firehose and only CFe Type B can handle that. Canon's lowest 8K bit rate after the latest firmware is 8K UHD IPB light @ 340MB/s.
> Sony's 8K recording speed is ~400MB/s
> Can you tell the difference? That is the real question and if not then Canon has over specified their bus/card system and created the overheating issues that were pounced on by detractors.


I think you’re mixing up B(ytes) and b(its) in the above. The fastest CFe B cards top out at 1500MBytes/s writes currently.


----------



## Finn (Jun 26, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> If the official launch is in 3 days, I am puzzled that there is still no countdown or information about it on the Canon websites. For the R5 it seemed like there were all sorts of events planned to hype it up. If you want your launch to grab headlines, wouldn't you let everyone know there is a launch in the first place?


My guess…it’s the official unveiling with a vague “available at end of 2021”. Everybody is having a hard time getting anything with silicon out.


----------



## Bahrd (Jun 26, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> 30.1mp backside illuminated image sensor (A Canon first)


Is this resolution already written in silicon?


----------



## VegasCameraGuy (Jun 26, 2021)

Well the 30.1 mp just saved me $6,000 bucks. I'm sticking with my R5 until maybe the R1? My other kidney feels better already.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jun 26, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> Gosh, why wouldn't it work for you???


Because the size of the files limits the speed and efficiency of my turnaround, storage and processing, and while all of those can be increased they can’t be increased at no cost. Which means my costs go up and my price has to go up, which is bad for business.


What is so hard to understand about the concept that more is not necessarily an advantage and for some it is a disadvantage? If I shot video and needed 4K I wouldn’t need an 8k camera, what is so different?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> If I shot video and needed 4K I wouldn’t need an 8k camera, what is so different?


But you could just downsample it…


----------



## Aregal (Jun 26, 2021)

SpaceGhost said:


> Based on the rumors, my main issue is the mismatched card slots. I'm stunned they'd do this on a 1 series/pro type body. Everything else is a great upgrade for me coming from the OG 1DX. I usually buy every other 1 series camera but skipped the 1DX mIII waiting for my mirrorless switch. This looks to be worthy. Of course, waiting for the release to double check rumor vs reality.


To my knowledge Canon said that this is not a 1D-level camera. Also, the 1Dxii has mismatched card slots when launched between the 1Dx and 1Dxiii (1MarkIV also had mismatched card slots). Personally, I’m waiting for the R1.


----------



## Pixel (Jun 26, 2021)

It’s NOT a flagship camera. I suggest you guys keep your expectations tempered somewhat.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Jun 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> As a 1 series user I explained in another thread why I am happy with CFExpress and SD combination. I never shoot RAW to both cards but do have occasion to pass off jpegs to social media managers etc. For that use CFExpress is perfect for RAW and video capture, and the SD card perfect to hand over in real time with jpegs to pretty much anybody. SD cards, card readers, and card slots in tablets and notebooks are ubiquitous.
> 
> The more I see this darn R3 the more I think Canon have been watching what I am actually doing and making a camera to do that, rather than listen to the childish wishlist I'd spew if I was interviewed by a Canon product management team. The trouble I will have is getting one in stock....
> 
> P.S. I keep referring to myself as a 1 series user, I only do this to show relevance, I truly believe this camera is aimed at 1 series holdouts (of which I am one) and can't get over how relevant it is to my specific uses. We have to move away from this idea that all of us should see good in every camera release, what I find appealing and useful others will abhor, that isn't an issue as far as I can see because we have completely different uses.





FrenchFry said:


> If the official launch is in 3 days, I am puzzled that there is still no countdown or information about it on the Canon websites. For the R5 it seemed like there were all sorts of events planned to hype it up. If you want your launch to grab headlines, wouldn't you let everyone know there is a launch in the first place?


this camera is nowhere as big of a deal as the R5 though. R5 was like the first "real" mirrorless and had 8K raw and a high MP. 30mp and 30fps and all the little tech stuff isn't that important or sounds that appealing to most consumers.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 26, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> 30mp and 30fps and all the little tech stuff isn't that important or sounds that appealing to most consumers ME.


Fixed that for you.

Why do people insist on thinking their personal wants represent the broader market? #hubris

What the data show is that _most consumers_ (of ILCs) will not pay more than $1000 for a camera + lens(es) kit, and that _most consumers_ do not buy FF ILCs. Therefore, the entire EOS R line is not that important or appealing to _most consumers_.


----------



## usern4cr (Jun 26, 2021)

lethiferous said:


> Yeah I expect it to be sold out, I also don't expect that many units avail due to chip shortages but doesn't change my mind set on it. I will preorder one anyway because I want to play with the eye af, unless its some magical sauce I will just sell it off after a month and have played with it as a free rental.


How do you get to use it for a month as a "free rental"?


----------



## privatebydesign (Jun 26, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> this camera is nowhere as big of a deal as the R5 though. R5 was like the first "real" mirrorless and had 8K raw and a high MP. 30mp and 30fps and all the little tech stuff isn't that important or sounds that appealing to most consumers.


For the general to advanced FF MILC market you might be right, for the market segment the R3 is aimed at it is way bigger.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 26, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> How do you get to use it for a month as a "free rental"?


I think lethiferous means buying it outright, using it for a month, and then returning it for a full refund while it is still within the refund period. Renting a camera soley for evaluation purposes does not really make a lot of sense in regions that have these return policies.


----------



## FrenchFry (Jun 26, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> How do you get to use it for a month as a "free rental"?


If they are in very short supply with months-long waiting lists, there could be demand for a like new one at full retail price.


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 26, 2021)

lethiferous said:


> I dont think R5 price point is proper but def not 6k. I have an a1 (sony bodies are cheap moment they've been out a month. I paid less than 6 for mine open box condition) there's much to be desired on that body in terms of physical things but other than that it is fantastic. I am more excited about a R1 then this, I don't really care for the 8k video on the R5 (only used it once when I got the body) looking at these specs, thinking about body. 5300 is probably the most I'd pay for it. I mean why do we no thave dual CF express on this thing? Seems like the canon cripple hammer is showing a bit, if this is to be at 6k.


"Crippled"/"cripple hammer" ought to ought to be banned just like the D word now is. Irritating as F$%@


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> I am a 1 series owner and user, I prefer 20-30mp and have no client use for more. As it is I have my work on interstate billboards and plastered all over the walls of design centers and creative spaces at huge reproduction ratios you stand next to. 20mp works fine for all of it, 30mp will give me a bit extra but I don't need it for client work of any kind. I, personally, do not want the hassle and inevitable slowdowns and storage limitations associated with larger files for all my work, it is of zero benefit to me or my clients.
> 
> I would like a high mp camera for some personal archival work I want to do but it isn't a priority and the 30mp will probably be more than sufficient anyway. If it isn't I'll pick up a secondhand 5DS for nothing and sell it when I'm done for a few dollars less.
> 
> What is ridiculous is people presuming what is good for them is good for everybody.


So are you the guy who does the "We bare all" billboards along I-75?


----------



## UpstateNYPhotog (Jun 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> I know no one camera can be ‘the one’ for everybody, but if the R3 is close to 30mp it hits the sweetest spot for me personaly.


Yes. 45 MP seems like overkill. I've never had a client complain about a 20 MP 1Dx II file, but I love being able to crop a 30 MP 5D IV file and still be well over 20. If they'd have just put some decent external controls on the R, it would have been just fine.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 26, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> "Crippled"/"cripple hammer" ought to ought to be banned just like the D word now is. Irritating as F$%@


I agree with banning "cripple hammer" but banning "crippled" could be a problem out of context.


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 26, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I agree with banning "cripple hammer" but banning "crippled" could be a problem out of context.


I think we all know the context here.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 26, 2021)

I have not verified but someone calculated that a 4K RAW crop would be about the size of the 4K in the EOS R which makes perfect sense to me since the sensor sizes are pretty much the same.
I doubt Canon would do that so I expect a downsampled Super 35 cropped 4K.


----------



## UpstateNYPhotog (Jun 26, 2021)

SpaceGhost said:


> Based on the rumors, my main issue is the mismatched card slots. I'm stunned they'd do this on a 1 series/pro type body. Everything else is a great upgrade for me coming from the OG 1DX. I usually buy every other 1 series camera but skipped the 1DX mIII waiting for my mirrorless switch. This looks to be worthy. Of course, waiting for the release to double check rumor vs reality.


1 series cameras have had mismatched cards for several generations, although my memories blur on which had which. I've used all of them except the 1Dx III. Personally I would prefer them to be matched, but the SD slots were handy back when you could stick them into a reader for an iPhone and transmit a photo quickly.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 26, 2021)

UpstateNYPhotog said:


> 1 series cameras have had mismatched cards for several generations, although my memories blur on which had which. I've used all of them except the 1Dx III. Personally I would prefer them to be matched, but the SD slots were handy back when you could stick them into a reader for an iPhone and transmit a photo quickly.


There is simply nothing as versatile as an SD slot, especially considering the Micro SD to SD adapters.
There are so many devices with either an SD or a Micro SD slot.


----------



## DJPatte (Jun 26, 2021)

Finn said:


> My guess…it’s the official unveiling with a vague “available at end of 2021”. Everybody is having a hard time getting anything with silicon out.


My guess is that this is an olympics show off release - they WILL get a couple of hundred or thousand or there in the next month


----------



## UpstateNYPhotog (Jun 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Because the size of the files limits the speed and efficiency of my turnaround, storage and processing, and while all of those can be increased they can’t be increased at no cost. Which means my costs go up and my price has to go up, which is bad for business.
> 
> 
> What is so hard to understand about the concept that more is not necessarily an advantage and for some it is a disadvantage? If I shot video and needed 4K I wouldn’t need an 8k camera, what is so different?


I think what you are pointing out is the difference between those who make a living with a camera and understand the challenges and expenses of editing, post processing and archiving, and those for whom it is a hobby, where one great photo from a session is all they want.


----------



## UpstateNYPhotog (Jun 26, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> There is simply nothing as versatile as an SD slot, especially considering the Micro SD to SD adapters.
> There are so many devices with either an SD or a Micro SD slot.


Yes I forgot about the convenience factor. I have to keep a card reader handy for my 1Dx II files. I would have preferred SD instead of CF for the second slot in that body if they were going to be different.


----------



## Basil (Jun 26, 2021)

I want! I want! (no, I don't need. WANT). Now which of my kids should I sell?


----------



## Cryhavoc (Jun 26, 2021)

Cyborx said:


> Make this one affordable Canon!!!!


It will be...just not at launch. Give it a year and it will be cheaper and keep an eye out for trade ins at your local shop.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jun 26, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> So are you the guy who does the "We bare all" billboards along I-75?


Haven’t seen them, but no, mine are on I95.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jun 26, 2021)

Basil said:


> I want! I want! (no, I don't need. WANT). Now which of my kids should I sell?


How many have you got


----------



## privatebydesign (Jun 26, 2021)

AEWest said:


> RF mount can accept EF glass, the reverse is not true. Therefore the RF mount is superior - you get the best of both worlds.


But you can’t get an OVF with RF, you can get an OVF and electronic view with EF.


----------



## st jack photography (Jun 26, 2021)

30mp at 30fps is quite an achievement, and after using the 5DSr and then a SONY RX1Rm2, I am SO GLAD they went to a BSI sensor. (chef kiss)
I love the body form factor. I hope they keep that with the studio megapixel monster follow-up to 5DSr. If they can pull off a sensor like the 30mp/30fps, one hopes that they can do a 120mp BSI at 5fps with a variable low-pass filter. Ooo-wee that would be a nice camera! 
At any rate, bye bye to my R5.


----------



## Aregal (Jun 26, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Canon also said at introduction that the R5 was NOT a replacement for the 5DIV, and yet it is.
> 
> They want to protect the 1Dx3's market value by calling it the flagship, but how can a camera with an obsolete mount be considered a flagship? The R3 will beat the 1Dx3 in almost every way, so it will be the flagship until the R1 arrives.


We still don’t know the buffer speed as the 1Dxiii is “buffer-less” only restricted by battery and card speed/space. Until we confirm the R3 is also “buffer-less”, the 1Dxiii will remain flagship with its fancy latch-release ultra-weathersealed card door compared to the R3/5’s.


----------



## UpstateNYPhotog (Jun 26, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> There is simply nothing as versatile as an SD slot, especially considering the Micro SD to SD adapters.
> There are so many devices with either an SD or a Micro SD slot.


Yes. I miss being able to put an SD adapter into the CF slot in my 1Dx II


----------



## AEWest (Jun 26, 2021)

Aregal said:


> We still don’t know the buffer speed as the 1Dxiii is “buffer-less” only restricted by battery and card speed/space. Until we confirm the R3 is also “buffer-less”, the 1Dxiii will remain flagship with its fancy latch-release ultra-weathersealed card door compared to the R3/5’s.


True, and we will find out shortly. But the way Canon had been marketing the camera with its focus on speed,for sports including auto racing, I would have a hard time believing the camera wouldn't have a massive if not unlimited buffer. A small buffer would kill the performance of it.
In terms of weather sealing, all we have been told is that it is equal to a 1D series camera.


----------



## reef58 (Jun 26, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> You can say it, Reeferboy, but it doesn't make it true.
> 
> Smaller and lighter, as you cite, are already advantages. I really can't bear to watch you argue this "no advantages"--"here are some advantages"--"no advantages" line of argument. It's like I'm reading comments by someone with multiple personality disorder.
> 
> ...


I thought you were wanting to have a serious conversation, but I guess I should have known better. Smaller can be better, but I choose the 1dx3 even over my own R5 in inclement weather for instance. I also choose it over the R5 for recording longer videos. To say the original R has better auto focus than the 1dx3 is laughable. The 1dx also can shoot many more frames per second. The uncropped video from the 1dx3 is head and shoulders above the R. I will admit RF lenses are nice and the 85mm 1.2 is superb, but I mostly shoot landscape and wildlife, so I really don't have a need for it. I am interested in the 100-500 and even the 600 and 800 f11 lenses. I will take the 1dx3 all day every day over a box of Canon R's. The R is a great camera no doubt, but it does not compare to the 1dx3 for what I do. 

I am not a moron so if I could get a better camera for $1500 or so (The Canon R) I would not fork out the money for the 1dx3. It makes no sense if what you say is true, but it isn't. It may be for you, but not for me.

If all you care about is MP then you can get a Fuji Medium Format or even a Canon 5dsr.


----------



## slclick (Jun 26, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I think we all know the context here.


yeah and furthermore it's not 1890 and we're not talking about Tiny Tim.


----------



## 2Cents (Jun 26, 2021)

Red Dog said:


> Fingers crossed for a reasonable selling price. After forking out for the 1dx mkiii last year the chances of persuading the boss that this is a must have could be difficult especially if its over £5k.


Now I'm thinking about selling my 1DX mkiii and picking up the R3 this summer but do I hold out for a R1...? It has to at least have specs this great.


----------



## John Wilde (Jun 26, 2021)

Nikon is apparently scheduled to announce a retro APS-C camera on June 28th. The June 29th announcement of the R3 is kind of a buzz kill for Nikon's marketing department.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 26, 2021)

koenkooi said:


> If it’s downsampled it isn’t RAW anymore, per definition.





SwissFrank said:


> nonsense


Many of your posts are nonsensical, but this one makes you look more foolish than most.

Downsampling means removing information from an image, a RAW image contains the original data from each pixel on the sensor.

Perhaps you're confusing downsampling with compression, they are not the same.

When you downsample a RAW image, it is no longer RAW. Period.


----------



## entoman (Jun 26, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Not if there is also an R5c.
> I think R1 would have to be at least 60MP to differentiate.
> I know R6 and 1DX Mark III have the same sensor but they are in different leagues.


Well we can only guess, and my guess is:

"R5c" - 90MP, 5fps mechanical, 4K 120p, possible with a tilting screen as it will be a stills orientated body.

R1 - 50MP, 30fps electronic, possibly a global shutter but unlikely, unlimited 8K, hybrid stills/video pro battleship.


----------



## Danglin52 (Jun 26, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> or gosh, maybe it's YOU who do not understand market segmentation?
> 
> If Canon is releasing two cameras, they can target each at a specific segment, as in EOS-1D and EOS-1Dx: one for the fast/lower-IQ crowd and one for the slow/higher-IQ crowd.
> 
> ...


Why sell one camera when you can sell two? You are looking at this from your personal needs and perspective while Canon is looking at their marketing research and customer buying patterns. Time will tell if they have made a mistake. I fought these issues while in tech, knowing that a company had the solution I wanted in the labs but were not releasing based on sales/marketing strategy. I never claimed I liked the approach, but it is way large companies work and does fall in the "market segmentation" approach that companies use to drive sales/profits. Canon will gain/loose customers on this approach but has apparently determined that delivering the R3 with the later pickup of the R1 sales is the best strategy. Naturally, there will be folks like you that don't feel the product meets their needs. To another thread, there is not doubt this camera will b sold out for months of production as they get ready to release the follow on R1 or R5s to meet the request for higher megapixel. As a wildlife shooter (not focused on birds), this camera will be probably be a very nice solution with better high ISO. I have the R5 as a backup camera in the event I want higher resolution. As far as multiple bodies at the same time, supply chains are stressed to the max at the current time and it wouldn't do any good to ramp up sales on products you can't deliver. Is a one camera that can do all things for all people the perfect consumer scenario, certainly. I personally never liked "Swiss Army knife" type solutions because there are always tradeoffs. Maybe you should consider other brands if they they do such a better job across all your needs.

BTWj - The sock comparison was apples and oranges. You took a simplistic, low cost product and compared it to a highly sophisticated product at 1000's of times the cost to produce and buy. Completely different markets, concepts, development, and production requirements.


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## canonmike (Jun 26, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> If they are in very short supply with months-long waiting lists, there could be demand for a like new one at full retail price.


Or more than full retail price. Just look at Ebay "WELL" over MSRP pricing on lenses in short supply now, like the RF 28-70 F2L and RF 100-500


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## Danglin52 (Jun 26, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> Technology, AND physics (!!, where do you get this shit) would trivially allow a high MP camera to produce a low MP file. For instance cutting height and width by half doesn't even require multiplies or divides, just addition and a bit shift. What law of physics would that break, exactly?
> 
> The reason not to do it isn't that technology or physics prevents Canon from doing so, but for business/economics/manufacturing reasons. (EG, since Canon is just starting to make backside sensors they're starting with 30MP not 120MP as a learning curve. Or they could do 120MP but it would be too expensive for the fast/low-IQ shooters. Or would take too long time to market.)


Let's not forget impact of higher MP on noise.


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## Chig (Jun 26, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Many of your posts are nonsensical, but this one makes you look more foolish than most.
> 
> Downsampling means removing information from an image, a RAW image contains the original data from each pixel on the sensor.
> 
> ...


It's tricky to explain things to the "Hard of thinking"


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## CanonGrunt (Jun 26, 2021)

I might keep one kidney. We’ll see. 



danfaz said:


> I'm selling everything except one or two lenses to get this!


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## Hector1970 (Jun 26, 2021)

Looks a very promising camera. Thankfully not 20 MP. The reviews will be interesting. I really looking to see what focusing performance is especially for moving birds which cameras generally have the most trouble with. What exactly does :

Dual card slot SD & CFExpress mean
Is that two different cards or it accepts both types of cards. It would seem odd to have two different types of cards in a camera. I've had no serious issue with CFExpress cards but they do run quite hot transferring data. Not sure if that weakens them over time.

If the R3 is as good as it potentially might be I think Canon will have an issue distinguishing an R1 from it. 
I think it would have to be at least 50MP and 8K and better at focusing (which may be a difficult ask).
There may be no rush to bring out an R1. Maybe this was meant to be it but they ran into limits and didn't want to declare it an R1


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## lethiferous (Jun 26, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> How do you get to use it for a month as a "free rental"?


I just sell the body while it's still sold out for what I paid, maybe a hair less. It's pretty easy for a camera that has low supply but high levels of hype.


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## dtaylor (Jun 26, 2021)

Danglin52 said:


> Let's not forget impact of higher MP on noise.


We can safely forget zero impact.


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## lglass12189 (Jun 26, 2021)

Since when do CPS members get priority availability on products?


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 26, 2021)

Hector1970 said:


> Is that two different cards or it accepts both types of cards


It is two different cards.
We already know this and it is not speculation.
It is just like the R5.


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## Danglin52 (Jun 27, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> You misunderstand me.
> 
> YES, by ALL MEANS sell two if you can affordably engineer and market two.
> 
> ...


I was only responding to your comment about understanding market segmentation. I acknowledged in my post that their decision could be a mistake and only time would justify or condemn their approach. The merit of their strategy would also depend on their product release plans which none of those outside the company or NDA are aware. They did a great job of keeping the R3 under wraps and close to unknown until the actual development announcement. I know there has been debate about the camera being relabeled from an R1 due to competition, but anyone with product development and marketing knowledge knows you don't change a direction close to launch (you stated this yourself). It would be nice to have a camera that does it all, but many times the Swiss Army knife approach manages to do a lot of things while not doing all of them in an optimized manner. They continue to expand the base technology platform, but keep layering on more compute and data bandwidth intensive tasks that bump up against the platform limits. As to creating multiple resolution of files from a larger sensor, I experimented with this on my R5 compared to an R6 I rented for a trip to YNP. While the downsized R5 files @ 12,800 were not bad, I felt the R6 files were "crisper" with less noise when shot in similar lighting situations. I switched lenses for the test and the light was consistent between shots (an elk grazing late afternoon around sunset). These were natural high ISO shots vs just cranking the ISO up to 12,800 in bright sunlight.

The R3 should work for me since I shoot wildlife and it has higher FPS, improved tracking and will probably deliver better high ISO performance with the new sensor. It would have been a tougher decision at less than 30mp since I wanted a bit of room for crop than the R6 I considered. I ALWAYS carry a backup body and it doesn't have to identical, jus in the same family. I held off buying a second R5 or R6 as a backup hoping Canon would release the R1. Assuming everything holds, I will carry the R3 as primary when shooting wildlife and the R5 when higher resolution or backup is needed. I sold the 1dx II for the R5 and feel the +/- balance out for the R5 in my use case.

On a final note, this is effectively their first large product backlight/stacked sensor with production capacity limitations. Canon is conservative and may want to test the waters in a full production versions at the lower res before they launch into high resolution sensor. While they probably already have test runs of a higher res sensor, they may still need to work out production issues before they bet on a pro level introduction. So, the higher resolution sensor you want may be technically "finished" it may not be ready for prime time yet. Introducing the in R3 gives them a test bed, ramp up production and. be prepared to put there name behind the high res sensor in an R1. 

Companies are definitely NOT infallible because they are directed by people.

David


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## djack41 (Jun 27, 2021)

Bit let down. The Sony A1 is 50 MP and just as fast. I hope the AF really performs.


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## Tangent (Jun 27, 2021)

So rumor has it that the RP will be replaced by a downmarket camera and an upmarket camera that will also serve as an R replacement. Call it the RP+.

That said, is it too much to hope the RP+ will have this new 30.1 MP backside illuminated sensor? (Or something similar with the new tech?) That would be great. More DR and yes to IBIS. Still keep it reasonably compact.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 27, 2021)

Tangent said:


> So rumor has it that the RP will be replaced by a downmarket camera and an upmarket camera that will also serve as an R replacement. Call it the RP+.
> 
> That said, is it too much to hope the RP+ will have this new 30.1 MP backside illuminated sensor? (Or something similar with the new tech?) That would be great. More DR and yes to IBIS. Still keep it reasonably compact.



You can be 100% sure the RP replacement won't have the R3's sensor or anything similar. In best case scenario it will get the R6's sensor or something similar.


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## Chig (Jun 27, 2021)

djack41 said:


> Bit let down. The Sony A1 is 50 MP and just as fast. I hope the AF really performs.


Well the AF isn't as good in the A1 as in the R5/R6 anyway and resolution isn't everything.
Sony claims the A1 can shoot 30fps but in reality it struggles to get even half of those shots in focus with fast moving subjects so it's just marketing fluff, whereas the R5 and R6 can get 90-95% of their 20fps in focus and I think the R3 will be similar.
If the A1 is their professional flagship body then it's not very serious competition to the R5 let alone the R3 or 1DXiii
The A1 can only shoot 20fps RAW the 30fps is limited to compressed RAW, heif or jpeg


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## AEWest (Jun 27, 2021)

2Cents said:


> Now I'm thinking about selling my 1DX mkiii and picking up the R3 this summer but do I hold out for a R1...? It has to at least have specs this great.


The R1 may well be a slower shooting high MP studio camera rather than a sports camera. So the right choice may depend on your type of photography.


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## Chig (Jun 27, 2021)

AEWest said:


> The R1 may well be a slower shooting high MP studio camera rather than a sports camera. So the right choice may depend on your type of photography.


I doubt the R1 will be anything other than an all out sports camera and if anything the resolution may be lower and the fps higher(say 20mp and 45fps for example), Canon will probably make a high resolution version of the R5 like the 5Ds and 5DsR


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## vignes (Jun 27, 2021)

Is it stacked sensor? the description just mentions BSI.

30.1mp backside illuminated image sensor (A Canon first)


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## Chig (Jun 27, 2021)

vignes said:


> Is it stacked sensor? the description just mentions BSI.
> 
> 30.1mp backside illuminated image sensor (A Canon first)


Canon's own website says : "The first EOS series camera to feature a full frame, back illuminated, stacked CMOS sensor for high-speed readout, and DIGIC X for high-speed image processing. Combined to deliver 30 frames per second with AF/AE tracking when using the electronic shutter, and significantly reduced image warping.⁣"

However Canon still hasn't officially mentioned 30mp anywhere as far as I know


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## vignes (Jun 27, 2021)

Chig said:


> Canon's own website says : "The first EOS series camera to feature a full frame, back illuminated, stacked CMOS sensor for high-speed readout, and DIGIC X for high-speed image processing. Combined to deliver 30 frames per second with AF/AE tracking when using the electronic shutter, and significantly reduced image warping.⁣"


CR should fix the info....


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## AEWest (Jun 27, 2021)

Chig said:


> I doubt the R1 will be anything other than an all out sports camera and if anything the resolution may be lower and the fps higher(say 20mp and 45fps for example), Canon will probably make a high resolution version of the R5 like the 5Ds and 5DsR


Why would Canon follow up a pro body sports camera with another one? Why would anyone need 45 fps? May as well use video.

The Nikon Z9 will be their flagship with likely 50 MP, and a pro body. Canon won't challenge it with an R5 body camera. I expect the R1 to have at least 60 MP, probably more.


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## reef58 (Jun 27, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> You really don't seem to understand how logic works.
> 
> When you say the 1DX3 does EVERYTHING better than the R, and I say you're full of it, I am not saying the 1DX3 does NOTHING better than the R. Instead I'm saying the 1DX3 does NOT do everything better than the R. I win that argument by even having ONE thing the R does better, and I think we've mentioned a half-dozen. Hell, you mentioned at least three for me.
> 
> ...


You seem to be the one struggling with logic, but carry on.


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## Kuau (Jun 27, 2021)

I am currently R5 shooter , mostly shoot Alpime Ski racing and freestyle skiing. I shot the Sony A9 then the A9ll yet even before the official announcement of the A1, Sony had said they were not going to make a “real” full size pro body with integrated battery grip so at the time the R5 had just came out so I dumped my complete Sony system and took a chance on the R5, Shooting the entire past winter with the R5 with battery grin, the RF 100-500 primarily I was very happy with the results especially when switching from 12fps mechanical to 20fps electronic shutter, I found the mechanical shutter for me was a big battery hog. 
Really looking forward to the R3 this winter season though I was hoping for 45mp, I found having the extra megapixe’s was extremely helpful that opened up excellent cropping options. I am still keeping an eye on the Nikon Z9 and see how quickly they can release longer Z glass.
Excitng times to be a sports photographer


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 27, 2021)

AEWest said:


> The R1 may well be a slower shooting high MP studio camera rather than a sports camera. So the right choice may depend on your type of photography.


Canon has made it clear that R3 is not their pro sports mirrorless camera so we can expect that will either be the R1 or R1x.


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## john1970 (Jun 27, 2021)

I will likely purchase a R3 and like others do think of what Canon will eventually put into their future top of the line mirrorless system, the R1. My instincts tell me that the R1 will likely have dual CFE type B cards, AF superior to R3 (quad pixel AF), and maybe a quad bayer sensor with a global sensor with faster e-shutter of 40 fps. I still place my bets that Canon releases a R1 for the winter Olympics in 2022 and I would not be surprised if the MP resolution of the R1 and R3 are essentially the same.


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## InchMetric (Jun 27, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Availability will be a key question mark. The agencies and CPS members will likely get theirs first, the rest of us low lifes will have to wait.
> 
> Good old Tony Northrup doesn't think we'll see the R3 untill 2022, maybe even the second half. That sounds way too long a wait, may as well not announce it then. I believe late fall of this year is most likely.


Everyone who orders one the first day will get one the first day it is shipped. Like everything ever.


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## AEWest (Jun 27, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Canon has made it clear that R3 is not their pro sports mirrorless camera so we can expect that will either be the R1 or R1x.


They also said clearly that the R5 was not a replacement for the 5DIV...


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## Danglin52 (Jun 27, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> Each individually will have a lot more noise, but when averaged together, the S/N ratio becomes the same as the 1 big pixel.


Can you clarify. If they each individually have more noise (your comment above), how do they average to less noise as a single pixel?


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## lethiferous (Jun 27, 2021)

AEWest said:


> They also said clearly that the R5 was not a replacement for the 5DIV...


Anything to make the folks hanging onto their DSLRS over fears of mirrorless feel better lol, while slowly killing it off.


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## adventureous (Jun 27, 2021)

Did someone mention Tiny Tim in this forum? Content is looking up.


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## Tirmite (Jun 27, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> I just kept thinking "please let it be more than 30MP". Now, here we are at 30.1.
> 
> But even if it is "just" 30MP, I am sure it will be fabulous. Just not quite as exciting for getting close to birds, but hopefully even better AF and image quality to make up for it.


Have you played with any of the AI up-scalers lately, like Gigapixel? Pretty amazing. Who REALLY needs more than 30MP now? Even the 12MP A7s becomes useable as a stills camera again (not just for video). People who absolutely must have huge files will probably migrate to medium format if they haven't already or will rely on pixel shift (for motionless subjects) if they need to create a large file. I think 30MP is ideal for most uses. I haven't had a client ask for a print in decades. Almost all viewing is done on a screen now and for magazine work, 30MP is more than enough. If not, use AI software to double the perceived resolution. I just hope the R3 is less than $6000 USD. It apparently has the specs of the 1Dx and those have all been introduced at $6500+/- so I wouldn't be surprised is this one lands in that zone, too. But maybe Canon will not be greedy and will realize they'll sell more if they keep the price as low as possible. Remember the 1Dc that started out at $10,000? I'm hoping for a pleasant price surprise (and 4K 120fps) on the 29th.


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## Tirmite (Jun 27, 2021)

entoman said:


> So if the R3 is 31MP, that means the R1 must be 50MP?


63.7MP, but 200MP with the jumper-cable external sensor block upgrade.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2021)

lethiferous said:


> Anything to make the folks hanging onto their DSLRS over fears of mirrorless feel better lol, while slowly killing it off.


Yes, at the current rate of market change that should only take a decade or so. Did you know that the best-selling ILC in Japan for the last two months was a Canon DSLR?


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## Tirmite (Jun 27, 2021)

Chig said:


> I doubt it , more likely the same or less mp : I predict 24mp for the R1 which is going to be their flagship professional sports camera with probably twin Digic X processors and twin CF Express slots and maybe 40 fps, but they will probably make a high resolution R5 variant of perhaps 80-90mp


I respectfully disagree. I'm going to bet they go back to the days of offering two high end cameras for two distinct market segments like when they had an "S" model 1D for studio shooters, except the numbering will be different. R3 sounds like it can replace and exceed what the 20MP 1Dx currently does. The R3 will be the pro sports camera. And hit 30fps (like an assigned custom function button) and your "stills" just became a short video without having to stop and switch to video mode. That sounds like a sport photographer's dream. I think the R1 will be the high-end megapixel version for studio users/architectural/etc. who want/need massive files. Sony has already shown it can be done with the A1 and its 50MP sensor. Canon is almost forced to meet or exceed that milestone. Doubt there will ever be an R1c because they learned the hard way how the 5D cannibalized their video camera sales. It's why they priced the 1Dc at $10K when it was introduced. At that price point it didn't threaten there video sales. They probably won't offer a "killer" hybrid that _kills_ their Cinema line sales. That's my theory, anyway.


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## Chig (Jun 27, 2021)

Tirmite said:


> I respectfully disagree. I'm going to bet they go back to the days of offering two high end cameras for two distinct market segments like when they had an "S" model 1D for studio shooters, except the numbering will be different. R3 sounds like it can replace and exceed what the 20MP 1Dx currently does. The R3 will be the pro sports camera. And hit 30fps (like an assigned custom function button) and your "stills" just became a short video without having to stop and switch to video mode. That sounds like a sport photographer's dream. I think the R1 will be the high-end megapixel version for studio users/architectural/etc. who want/need massive files. Sony has already shown it can be done with the A1 and its 50MP sensor. Canon is almost forced to meet or exceed that milestone. Doubt there will ever be an R1c because they learned the hard way how the 5D cannibalized their video camera sales. It's why they priced the 1Dc at $10K when it was introduced. At that price point it didn't threaten there video sales. They probably won't offer a "killer" hybrid that _kills_ their Cinema line sales. That's my theory, anyway.


Interesting ideas but the following seem to favour my predictions :

Canon have stated that the R3 doesn't replace the 1DXiii and isn't their new flagship model which is all fact 

There have been rumours of a high mp version of the R5 and surely this makes more sense as very few users will prefer the integrated and very expensive body for architectural work and the few that want it for studio work would be fine with a vertical grip instead.

Canon seems to consider the 1 D series as both their flagship model line and mostly aimed at professional sports shooters

Exciting times for those of us that prefer Canon but also for all camera companies and it'll very interesting to see what new and amazing gear comes out over the next year or two.

Just imagine what will be possible in 10 years from now


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## Chig (Jun 27, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Why would Canon follow up a pro body sports camera with another one? Why would anyone need 45 fps? May as well use video.
> 
> The Nikon Z9 will be their flagship with likely 50 MP, and a pro body. Canon won't challenge it with an R5 body camera. I expect the R1 to have at least 60 MP, probably more.


Well the R1 probably won't come out until 2024 at the next olympics and they will be releasing several cameras before then

Professional sports shooters always want higher fps to catch the perfect moment when a bat hits a ball or a diver just touches the water , etc and they definitely don't want bigger file sizes which offer little benefit and just slow their work flow down. Many of them just shoot jpeg as the results are plenty good enough.


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## David - Sydney (Jun 27, 2021)

koenkooi said:


> I think you’re mixing up B(ytes) and b(its) in the above. The fastest CFe B cards top out at 1500MBytes/s writes currently.


Yes, R5 8k raw rate is 2300Mb/s rather than 2300MB/s. Edited original post


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## Bahrd (Jun 27, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> It's a property of math, relied upon in statistics*.


* Photon's statistics is governed by Poisson distribution. This means, in particular, that not only 0 or 1 photon can be captured but also 2, 3 or even more (yet much less likely).


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## Bahrd (Jun 27, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> Oh, exactly, of course! I'm just trying to make it as simple as possible. You'll agree that the result I'm presenting is correct, even though the example is cutting corners, right? Summing four Poisson distributions yields a Poisson distribution, but then when you divide by four you have a much smaller standard deviation. That's what I'm trying to convey.


Absolutely! It's truly amazing that both Poisson and Bernoulli laws are so effective models of photon's behavior.


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## HMC11 (Jun 27, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> It's a property of math, relied upon in statistics.
> 
> Say we're imaging something half-reflective of light, and it's so dark that even a pure white object will only yield one photon in each pixel of a hi-MP sensor. So our gray object should yield a half-photon per pixel. NO single pixel will have the correct answer of half-reflective, because there's no such thing as a half-photon. Instead they'll either have twice the real value, or a zero value. Noise is +- 100%, basically! (This is like: we know the odds when flipping a coin is 50% either way, but if we then just flip a coin one time, we cannot get 50%, we only get 100% heads or 0% heads.)
> 
> ...


That was well explained. Let me see if I get it right. Your 'model' assumes a uniform flux of photons, ie. it is equally likely to fall on any of the pixels. If, instead of that, we have a have a light (photon) distribution that have varying areas of light intensity (as in a real-world image), then are the following conclusions valid?

(a) in areas where there is sufficient light (well exposed), there will not be noticeable difference between an image taken by the higher MP sensor vs the low MP sensor when viewed at the pixel level (ie. at a viewing distance/enlargement of the image such that our eye can just about able to see each individual pixel) of the lower MP camera, i.e. say we compare 80MP vs 20MP, then when viewed at the pixel level of the 20MP image, the 80MP image would be essentially the same assuming everything else being equal (processing sensor tech etc). If we zoomed in further, then the 80MP image would appear sharper as it has more resolution.
(b) In low light areas, we can detect the difference between the 20MP & 80MP image when viewed at the pixel level of the 20MP sensor, i.e. the 80MP would appear noisy. Essentially, this is due to the 20MP pixel averaging the photons it receives and producing a single response for that pixel, whereas the 80MP would produce 4 signals that are not averaged, and hence would 'look' more noisy. I assume that if we view it from a greater distance such that our eyes essentially see an average of the 4 smaller pixels of the 80MP sensor, then the images from both would appear to be the 'same'.

Things are probably a lot more complicated than the above, however, does it mean that a higher MP sensor would have worst low light performance unless its technology, processing etc can sufficiently compensate?


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## Sporgon (Jun 27, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> You can be 100% sure the RP replacement won't have the R3's sensor or anything similar. In best case scenario it will get the R6's sensor or something similar.


In this situation, when looking at a ‘consumer’ targeted camera, I doubt the RPII (or whatever) would drop in mp. But I am usually wrong when guessing what Canon will do next 
The current RP is remarkably capable and Canon let the hand brake off for an “entry level” camera as long as you can live with the off chip ADC design.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 27, 2021)

HMC11 said:


> Things are probably a lot more complicated than the above, however, does it mean that a higher MP sensor would have worst low light performance unless its technology, processing etc can sufficiently compensate?


I generally hate image tests for this reason.
They tend to measure the amount of noise.
Not all noise is displeasing, some of it can be easily corrected in post, and there is a lot of noise correction inside the camera.
Most of what they are testing is the built-in noise correction inside the camera.
In reality, all that matters is the final image and the time, effort, cost, and expertise required to achieve it.
The easiest thing to do is try cameras out and buy the ones that get you the best result for what you do.
To me, the biggest issue is the signal-to-noise ratio of camera information.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 27, 2021)

Sporgon said:


> In this situation, when looking at a ‘consumer’ targeted camera, I doubt the RPII (or whatever) would drop in mp. But I am usually wrong when guessing what Canon will do next
> The current RP is remarkably capable and Canon let the hand brake off for an “entry level” camera as long as you can live with the off chip ADC design.


There is not supposed to be a camera named RP Mark II.
There may be an RP2 but that is not really an indication of whether it will be spec'd above or below the RP.
I am not sure that Canon will even start future camera names with RP but it makes sense to me to use that for any cameras with that body type.
It would also not surprise me to see a camera with an RP body with higher specs than a camera with an R body but it might be like the Rebel DSLRs where the smaller cameras are all cheaper.

If Canon stays true to form then the follow-up would be RP10, entry-level would be RP100, and top-level would be RP1.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 27, 2021)

Sporgon said:


> In this situation, when looking at a ‘consumer’ targeted camera, I doubt the RPII (or whatever) would drop in mp. But I am usually wrong when guessing what Canon will do next
> The current RP is remarkably capable and Canon let the hand brake off for an “entry level” camera as long as you can live with the off chip ADC design.



The RP II just needs a bit better sensor (can stay 24-26mp), maybe one with on-chip ADC and full frame 4K with dual pixel AF. Even if it's only at 30fps. And maybe make it a bit faster, like 5-6 fps with tracking AF.


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## Hector1970 (Jun 27, 2021)

Chig said:


> Well the R1 probably won't come out until 2024 at the next olympics and they will be releasing several cameras before then
> 
> Professional sports shooters always want higher fps to catch the perfect moment when a bat hits a ball or a diver just touches the water , etc and they definitely don't want bigger file sizes which offer little benefit and just slow their work flow down. Many of them just shoot jpeg as the results are plenty good enough.


The world cup in Nov 22 so this is plenty of time to have an R1 available. I can't see an R1 having less MP than an R3. The R1 will have to be better in all aspects to an R3 to justify its position at the top of the tree. File sizes are less relevant with communication speeds rapidly increasing, cropping allows for more editing options. You can always reduce file size - you can't increase it. FPS could would arguebly reach a point where its an obstacle to work flow. HIgher FPS means more sorting through practically identical images. You may as well take stills from video. For an R1 to justify its price it will have almost amazing autofocus ability. I wonder myself if the R3 was something planned from the beginning or whether it was an afterthought of an R1 developed so far and Canon either thought it didn't justify the R1 badge or some breakthrough that wouldn't be ready in time and decided to go with an intermediate solution of calling it an R3 to be competitive with the top Sony camera. I'd certainly take 50MP over 50FPS in terms of usefulness. I can't wait for the R3 reviews. If there is a major leap forward in focusing ability it will be of great interest to me.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 27, 2021)

Hector1970 said:


> I wonder myself if the R3 was something planned from the beginning or whether it was an afterthought of an R1 developed so far and Canon either thought it didn't justify the R1 badge or some breakthrough that wouldn't be ready in time and decided to go with an intermediate solution of calling it an R3 to be competitive with the top Sony camera.


If R3 was the planned successor to the 1DX then it would have 2 CF Express slots.
I get the feeling R3 was planned before the Z9 announcement and Canon is not as obsessed with what Sony does as social media is.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 27, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Even if it's only at 30fps


I am guessing you meant "only 30MP".


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## Skyscraperfan (Jun 27, 2021)

Isn't there a kind of noise that gets overproportionally worse when pixels get smaller? Otherwise it is strange that sensors optimized for low noise often have a low resolution. I am thinking about that sensor by Canon for example that can do images with ISO 3,276,800 or so and only has a very low resolution. Of course if noise is random at each pixel, you can average it out, but there also is noise with other frequencies that effects a hundred or so pixels in the same way, Averaging it out will not work there and it could get worse on small pixel, because on small pixels tha signal has to be amplified much more than on a large pixel.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 27, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> Isn't there a kind of noise that gets overproportionally worse when pixels get smaller? Otherwise it is strange that sensors optimized for low noise often have a low resolution. I am thinking about that sensor by Canon for example that can do images with ISO 3,276,800 or so and only has a very low resolution. Of course if noise is random at each pixel, you can average it out, but there also is noise with other frequencies that effects a hundred or so pixels in the same way, Averaging it out will not work there and it could get worse on small pixel, because on small pixels tha signal has to be amplified much more than on a large pixel.


Cameras focused on high ISO have lower resolution.
I guess maybe they also have less noise at low ISO but they capture a lot less information.


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## lethiferous (Jun 27, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yes, at the current rate of market change that should only take a decade or so. Did you know that the best-selling ILC in Japan for the last two months was a Canon DSLR?


Pretty cure cost of entry and low price ef glass plays a huge role in that. A rebel with access to old cheap EF lenses is a lot cheaper.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2021)

lethiferous said:


> Pretty cure cost of entry and low price ef glass plays a huge role in that. A rebel with access to old cheap EF lenses is a lot cheaper.


The cost of the entry level DSLRs and MILCs (e.g., SL3/Kiss X10 and M50 MkII/Kiss M2) are essentially the same (within a few 10’s of dollars and different ones are slightly cheaper in different markets, so no real difference there).

Most APS-C body sales are 1- and 2-lens kits, and given the 1.4:1 lens:body market ratio, most consumers never buy another lens, so ‘old, cheap EF lenses aren’t a factor, and regardless EF-M lenses are similarly-priced with EF-S counterparts.

The reality is that a large swath of the market still prefers DSLRs over MILCs. Do you honestly think it’s a good idea to ‘slowly kill off’ camera lines that comprise 45% of the ILC market?


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## Del Paso (Jun 27, 2021)

My dream has just come true!
The R 3 is for me the ideal camera for macro, with its eye-control AF, class-leading IBIS, and the RF 100mm, since 99% of my macro shots are handheld. Bank-account, get ready for a savage attack!
Edit: I forgot the integrated grip, perfect for vertical pictures.


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## GMCPhotographics (Jun 27, 2021)

Red Dog said:


> Fingers crossed for a reasonable selling price. After forking out for the 1dx mkiii last year the chances of persuading the boss that this is a must have could be difficult especially if its over £5k.


Invest in camera glass...not the camera bodies. The bodies worth drop like a hot brick over 3-5 years. Most lenses only take a 20% hit over their life span of 10-20 years.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 27, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I am guessing you meant "only 30MP".



No, i meant 4K video at 30fps.


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## Skyscraperfan (Jun 27, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Many of your posts are nonsensical, but this one makes you look more foolish than most.
> 
> Downsampling means removing information from an image, a RAW image contains the original data from each pixel on the sensor.
> 
> ...


I don't think they will evev give use the real RAW images. For example there is one quite extreme transformation they apply before creating the RAW: The Bayer Filter only lets through either red, green or blue light for each pixel. However the RAW file already seems to contain an interpolated version of that real raw data that comes from the camera. Each colour is interpolated to neighbouring pixels to create the final image. So combining two green, one red and one blue pixel into a single pixel of an sRAW image would even be more accurate than the big RAW image that contains a lot of interpolated colour information. Even some noise reduction that can't be disabled is used to create the RAW file. So it is quite far away from real raw data.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 27, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> No, i meant 4K video at 30fps.


OK, thanks. My mistake. Now when I see FPS I think of still photos.


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## koenkooi (Jun 27, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> I don't think they will evev give use the real RAW images. For example there is one quite extreme transformation they apply before creating the RAW: The Bayer Filter only lets through either red, green or blue light for each pixel. However the RAW file already seems to contain an interpolated version of that real raw data that comes from the camera.[..]


Ehm, no. RAW images from Canon cameras haven't been debayered or interpolated yet, the software on you computer needs to do that. In the past you could use 'mRAW' and 'sRAW', which weren't actually RAW. They were debayered, downscaled TIFFs with enough metadata to be able to change the whitebalance in post.

As for the alledged noise reduction on the R5 sensor, we don't know where and why it's being done. It could very well be done in hardware by the sensor.


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## Sporgon (Jun 27, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Cameras focused on high ISO have lower resolution.
> I guess maybe they also have less noise at low ISO but they capture a lot less information.


I was disappointed when I compared the 12mp Sony A7s against my 5DS at relatively high ISO, ie practical for my situation, about 6,400. 
The Sony is meant to be the one of the best quality at high ISO, yet when I downsampled the 5DS to the same 12mp it wasn’t that different.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 27, 2021)

koenkooi said:


> Ehm, no. RAW images from Canon cameras haven't been debayered or interpolated yet, the software on you computer needs to do that. In the past you could use 'mRAW' and 'sRAW', which weren't actually RAW. They were debayered, downscaled TIFFs with enough metadata to be able to change the whitebalance in post.
> 
> As for the alledged noise reduction on the R5 sensor, we don't know where and why it's being done. It could very well be done in hardware by the sensor.


Not completely.
RAW files are not a direct readout from the sensor.
They have still gone through an image processor.
The amount of processing varies from camera to camera which is one of the reasons Photoshop has to do custom RAW processing for every camera.
Adobe came out with DNG (Digital Negative) RAW format to try to avoid this but that became a clusterbomb.
Now each vendor has a custom RAW format that is different for every camera.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> I don't think they will evev give use the real RAW images. For example there is one quite extreme transformation they apply before creating the RAW: The Bayer Filter only lets through either red, green or blue light for each pixel. However the RAW file already seems to contain an interpolated version of that real raw data that comes from the camera. Each colour is interpolated to neighbouring pixels to create the final image. So combining two green, one red and one blue pixel into a single pixel of an sRAW image would even be more accurate than the big RAW image that contains a lot of interpolated colour information. Even some noise reduction that can't be disabled is used to create the RAW file. So it is quite far away from real raw data.


Sorry, no. You need to do a little more research on what comprises a RAW image.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Not completely.
> RAW files are not a direct readout from the sensor.
> They have still gone through an image processor.
> The amount of processing varies from camera to camera which is one of the reasons Photoshop has to do custom RAW processing for every camera.
> ...


Not quite. The ‘custom RAW format’ is a set of corrections applied by the RAW conversion software that supports the camera, and the manufacturer supplies those instructions. For example, the RF 24-240 is actually wider than 24mm and has mechanical vignetting at the corners, but when cropped to a 24mm FoV the vignetting is outside that frame.

When you view the RAW image in software that supports that camera, that cropping is applied by the viewing software. When you use an agnostic viewer like RawTherapee, you see the wider-than-24mm FoV of the 24-240 and the vignetted corners.


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## usern4cr (Jun 27, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> I don't think they will evev give use the real RAW images. For example there is one quite extreme transformation they apply before creating the RAW: The Bayer Filter only lets through either red, green or blue light for each pixel. However the RAW file already seems to contain an interpolated version of that real raw data that comes from the camera. Each colour is interpolated to neighbouring pixels to create the final image. So combining two green, one red and one blue pixel into a single pixel of an sRAW image would even be more accurate than the big RAW image that contains a lot of interpolated colour information. Even some noise reduction that can't be disabled is used to create the RAW file. So it is quite far away from real raw data.


Are you saying the raw file (as stored in memory, NOT as viewed) contains 3 colors per pixel after Bayer interpolation? I very strongly doubt that, but would welcome you to provide evidence of it. You might be assuming this because when you "view" a raw file (by using some software program), that program will do the Bayer interpolation of the (non-interpolated) file so that you can see it on a monitor which is expecting 3 colors per pixel format.

Now, some manufacturers are reported to apply filtering on the stored raw file itself (which is tragic IMHO) so that they have better results when their camera & sensors are tested by companies like DXO. (Remember the "star eater" firmware versions from Sony?) I don't know if this is true for Canon or not, and would be interested to know if it was.


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## UpstateNYPhotog (Jun 27, 2021)

Tirmite said:


> Have you played with any of the AI up-scalers lately, like Gigapixel? Pretty amazing. Who REALLY needs more than 30MP now? Even the 12MP A7s becomes useable as a stills camera again (not just for video). People who absolutely must have huge files will probably migrate to medium format if they haven't already or will rely on pixel shift (for motionless subjects) if they need to create a large file. I think 30MP is ideal for most uses. I haven't had a client ask for a print in decades. Almost all viewing is done on a screen now and for magazine work, 30MP is more than enough. If not, use AI software to double the perceived resolution. I just hope the R3 is less than $6000 USD. It apparently has the specs of the 1Dx and those have all been introduced at $6500+/- so I wouldn't be surprised is this one lands in that zone, too. But maybe Canon will not be greedy and will realize they'll sell more if they keep the price as low as possible. Remember the 1Dc that started out at $10,000? I'm hoping for a pleasant price surprise (and 4K 120fps) on the 29th.


Agreed on 30 MP. I've never had a complaint about 20 MP 1Dx II files either. 45MP would just slow me down. If the R5 was 30 MP I'd have two by now.


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## UpstateNYPhotog (Jun 27, 2021)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Invest in camera glass...not the camera bodies. The bodies worth drop like a hot brick over 3-5 years. Most lenses only take a 20% hit over their life span of 10-20 years.


Yes. My original model EF 300 2.8 still takes amazing images. I think it's remarkable that Canon built a system in the late 80's such that you can still mount those lenses on an R5 from 2020 and do amazing work. I can't think of any other piece of expensive high technology that is so backwards/forwards compatible. Not that I still don't miss my FD 400 2.8.


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## Skyscraperfan (Jun 27, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> Are you saying the raw file (as stored in memory, NOT as viewed) contains 3 colors per pixel after Bayer interpolation? I very strongly doubt that, but would welcome you to provide evidence of it. You might be assuming this because when you "view" a raw file (by using some software program), that program will do the Bayer interpolation of the (non-interpolated) file so that you can see it on a monitor which is expecting 3 colors per pixel format.
> 
> Now, some manufacturers are reported to apply filtering on the stored raw file itself (which is tragic IMHO) so that they have better results when their camera & sensors are tested by companies like DXO. (Remember the "star eater" firmware versions from Sony?) I don't know if this is true for Canon or not, and would be interested to know if it was.


If the RAW file does not contain any interpolated colours, that would mean that each pixel only contains either red, blue and green colours. Doesn't that mean that the whole information contained in one red, one blue and one of the green pixels could be saved in a single RGB pixel? I think that depends on how the interploation works. Is each colour interpolated separately or do the blue pixels for example help interploating the red pixels?


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 27, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> If the RAW file does not contain any interpolated colours, that would mean that each pixel only contains either red, blue and green colours. Doesn't that mean that the whole information contained in one red, one blue and one of the green pixels could be saved in a single RGB pixel? I think that depends on how the interploation works. Is each colour interpolated separately or do the blue pixels for example help interploating the red pixels?


There are no RGB pixels in a RAW file.
Each pixel is red, green, or blue.
(BRAW files are RGBW because it was originally designed for the URSA 12K sensor. which is not a Bayer sensor.)


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## Danglin52 (Jun 27, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> First, and this is absolutely no insult, if you knew which was which, a subconscious assumption may have biased your analysis. That's why real science is based on blind or even double-blind testing: make people rate the photos NOT knowing which camera took which. And maybe even have the person making the test not know which is which, so they don't fall into some unspoken subconscious ordering.
> 
> Second, Canon has always had sensors with the wiring on the front of the sensor (front-side sensor). The double MP sensor has twice the wires interfering with light, so it is NOT true that a hi-MP front-side sensor will pick up as many TOTAL photons as a lo-MP sensor. In contrast the R3 and one assumes all future Canons are back-side. The entire front of the sensor is sensitive to photons, whether there's 1 big pixel or a billion. In this case, while every single pixel in the hi-MP sensor will have more noise, the scene as a whole won't, so down-sampling (especially, downsampling by an integer factor like exactly 4 pixels to 1) should give an identical image with identical noise characteristics as well as identical resolution.


I actually shared the files with a couple of other folks and just labeled them A & B version. Certainly not scientific measurement, but everyone picked the R6 shots off of a iMac 5k monitor. I am not a sensor geek, but aware of the difference between the sensors and potential advantages.


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## Danglin52 (Jun 27, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> It's a property of math, relied upon in statistics.
> 
> Say we're imaging something half-reflective of light, and it's so dark that even a pure white object will only yield one photon in each pixel of a hi-MP sensor. So our gray object should yield a half-photon per pixel. NO single pixel will have the correct answer of half-reflective, because there's no such thing as a half-photon. Instead they'll either have twice the real value, or a zero value. Noise is +- 100%, basically! (This is like: we know the odds when flipping a coin is 50% either way, but if we then just flip a coin one time, we cannot get 50%, we only get 100% heads or 0% heads.)
> 
> ...


This one I will have to give some consideration and research since I am not a sensor geek and hated statistics. Reminds me too much of the discussion I had with the design engineers when we bought the Image Sensor Division from Kodak. I have no issues admitting I don't know, which was a surprisingly effective approach in business.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> If the RAW file does not contain any interpolated colours, that would mean that each pixel only contains either red, blue and green colours. Doesn't that mean that the whole information contained in one red, one blue and one of the green pixels could be saved in a single RGB pixel? I think that depends on how the interploation works. Is each colour interpolated separately or do the blue pixels for example help interploating the red pixels?


Reducing the data from adjacent pixels with different color masks would mean a loss of spatial resolution. Also, following that processing you would no longer have a RAW file. 

A simple algorithm using only adjacent photosites would interpolate color poorly. Current RAW conversion algorithms use many surrounding photosites of all three color masks to better estimate the color value of each pixel. Demosaicing is more than just simple interpolation among immediately adjacent pixels.


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## entoman (Jun 27, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yes, at the current rate of market change that should only take a decade or so. Did you know that the best-selling ILC in Japan for the last two months was a Canon DSLR?


..... well I succumbed to the irresistible R5, but only because Canon didn't produce a DSLR successor to the 5DS and 5DMkiv.

I've owned the R5 for a couple of months, shooting about 8000 shots so far, of birds (incl. BIF), mammals, insects and landscapes. It's a fantastic camera, but I still greatly prefer the DSLR viewfinder experience...


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2021)

entoman said:


> ..... well I succumbed to the irresistible R5, but only because Canon didn't produce a DSLR successor to the 5DS and 5DMkiv.
> 
> I've owned the R5 for a couple of months, shooting about 8000 shots so far, of birds (incl. BIF), mammals, insects and landscapes. It's a fantastic camera, but I still greatly prefer the DSLR viewfinder experience...


I have gotten used to my EOS R viewfinder but I do still prefer the 1D X. But the advantages of the R3 outweigh that preference, and even though I prefer the OVF, an EVF certainly has some advantages.


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## UpstateNYPhotog (Jun 27, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I have gotten used to my EOS R viewfinder but I do still prefer the 1D X. But the advantages of the R3 outweigh that preference, and even though I prefer the OVF, an EVF certainly has some advantages.


I think the image stabilization is a big point, especially if you have some older, non stabilized lenses. The focusing accuracy and the ability to focus just a little bit further off center are huge. I do a lot of low light people work and the liveview focusing in my 5D IV has sold me on mirrorless.


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## melgross (Jun 27, 2021)

Chig said:


> Just my guess but a lot of professional sports shooters would prefer 40fps and 24mp (or even 45fps and 20mp) over 30fps and 30mp as capturing the exact crucial moment like a bat hitting a ball or a diver just entering the water is more important to them than a small gain in resolution which has no noticeable effect on the final image but does slow down your workflow.


If this is going to be an even higher end sports camera, then frankly, the R3 was a waste of time. That development time and money could have been better spent elsewhere. If Canon is following their old model of development, as some have suggested, the the R1 will not be another sports camera.


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## prodorshak (Jun 27, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> It's a property of math, relied upon in statistics.
> 
> Say we're imaging something half-reflective of light, and it's so dark that even a pure white object will only yield one photon in each pixel of a hi-MP sensor. So our gray object should yield a half-photon per pixel. NO single pixel will have the correct answer of half-reflective, because there's no such thing as a half-photon. Instead they'll either have twice the real value, or a zero value. Noise is +- 100%, basically! (This is like: we know the odds when flipping a coin is 50% either way, but if we then just flip a coin one time, we cannot get 50%, we only get 100% heads or 0% heads.)
> 
> ...


This is why we love CR forum.


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## melgross (Jun 27, 2021)

koenkooi said:


> If it’s downsampled it isn’t RAW anymore, per definition.


The definition of RAW has changed. I’m not sure if any camera manufacturer outputs “pure RAW“ anymore. It’s getting to the point where anything other than JPEG’s or HEIF will be considered to be RAW.


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## unfocused (Jun 27, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I have gotten used to my EOS R viewfinder but I do still prefer the 1D X. But the advantages of the R3 outweigh that preference, and even though I prefer the OVF, an EVF certainly has some advantages.


Based on using both the R and the R5, I think you’ll find the R3 viewfinder won’t be as noticeably different from a DSLR as the R viewfinder is. R5 seems less laggy and less problematic in bright sunlight.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2021)

melgross said:


> The definition of RAW has changed. I’m not sure if any camera manufacturer outputs “pure RAW“ anymore. It’s getting to the point where anything other than JPEG’s or HEIF will be considered to be RAW.


RAW is still RAW. The fact that commonly used RAW conversion software applications apply various corrections by default does not change the underlying data, which can be viewed in ‘pristine’ form with apps like RawTherapee and Rawnalyze.


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## usern4cr (Jun 27, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> If the RAW file does not contain any interpolated colours, that would mean that each pixel only contains either red, blue and green colours. Doesn't that mean that the whole information contained in one red, one blue and one of the green pixels could be saved in a single RGB pixel? I think that depends on how the interploation works. Is each colour interpolated separately or do the blue pixels for example help interploating the red pixels?


We've had previous posts in great detail that show the QE curves for each R G B filter. The R & G filtered dots share a lot of the same information, with some blue in them. The blue filter peak is further away but still shares some R & G information. The responses of the 3 filters is reported to be similar to the responses of the human eye. It is *not* true that the R G B dots are just pure R, G, and B information.

If your question is: can't 3 dots (R G B) be considered a single pixel? Well, sure (but that'd reduce the MP bragging rights by 3x). Also, the Bayer array has 2 G's for every R & B, so do you reduce 4 dots to 1 pixel or to 2 pixels? I still wish they'd call a 20MDot sensor just that, but they call it a 20MPixel sensor and do a pretty good job of interpolation.


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## melgross (Jun 27, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> I don't think they will evev give use the real RAW images. For example there is one quite extreme transformation they apply before creating the RAW: The Bayer Filter only lets through either red, green or blue light for each pixel. However the RAW file already seems to contain an interpolated version of that real raw data that comes from the camera. Each colour is interpolated to neighbouring pixels to create the final image. So combining two green, one red and one blue pixel into a single pixel of an sRAW image would even be more accurate than the big RAW image that contains a lot of interpolated colour information. Even some noise reduction that can't be disabled is used to create the RAW file. So it is quite far away from real raw data.


Exactly! And some years ago both Nikon and Sony began to lossily compress parts of their RAW files, Sony in the highlights, and I don’t remember exactly what Nikon is doing. And the, Sony has offered 12 bit RAW files, down from the 14 bit capture. Even making a 16 bit RAW files isn’t giving the real data, since the files are really 14 bits. There’s a lot going on in RAW files these days with some manufacturers putting lens correction in those files that can’t be modified or removed later.

that why I mentioned “pure Raw” files earlier. Maybe manufacturers should just stop using the term RAW. And look at what Apple is doing with their Apple RAW files. It’s just a marketing term nowadays. It’s lost its original meaning.
back in “the old days”, a friend and I used to beta test backs for a couple of companies. The RAW files would come out of the camera back into the computer, and then into their demosaicing software. That was a true RAW file. I don’t think any other file counts are really being RAW.


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## melgross (Jun 27, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> RAW is still RAW. The fact that commonly used RAW conversion software applications apply various corrections by default does not change the underlying data, which can be viewed in ‘pristine’ form with apps like RawTherapee and Rawnalyze.


It’s not RAW once it’s demosiaced.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2021)

melgross said:


> It’s not RAW once it’s demosiaced.


A RAW image file has _not_ been demosaiced (the jpg thumbnail inside the RAW container notwithstanding).


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## schaudi (Jun 27, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yes, at the current rate of market change that should only take a decade or so. Did you know that the best-selling ILC in Japan for the last two months was a Canon DSLR?


If I remember correctly this "best-selling" DSLR ist one of the very cheapest. You should keep in mind, that u can get new Canon DSLRs sometimes for under 300€ (with Lens and accessories), while the cheapest Canon DSLM is twice as expensive -> of course the big group of cheap consumers still buys a lot of DSLRs.


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## Bahrd (Jun 27, 2021)

HMC11 said:


> Things are probably a lot more complicated than the above, however, does it mean that a higher MP sensor would have worst low light performance unless its technology, processing etc can sufficiently compensate?


I assume you are 21+ and can read this explanation (a takeaway version: the more pixels the larger additional read noise error


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2021)

schaudi said:


> If I remember correctly this "best-selling" DSLR ist one of the very cheapest. You should keep in mind, that u can get new Canon DSLRs sometimes for under 300€ (with Lens and accessories), while the cheapest Canon DSLM is twice as expensive -> of course the big group of cheap consumers still buys a lot of DSLRs.


You should keep mind that it’s always best to rely on facts and data, memory is prone to error, as is the case for u here.

The list to which I refer is for Japan and the Kiss X10 (250D) tops it. The second-highest Canon ILC on the list is the Kiss M (M50, the original not the MkII, though the latter is in the top ten as well).

Currently on amazon.co.jp:

Kiss X10 + 18-55mm — ¥82,500
Kiss M + 15-45mm — ¥68,800
A lot of DSLRs are being bought even though they cost more than a similar MILC. Another bogus claim debunked by real data.


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## Skyscraperfan (Jun 27, 2021)

It seems an sRAW file already is demosaiced in the camera and is more similar to a JPEG. Like a JPEG wiith 14 bits or so instead of 8 bits. It seems some sRAWs even have a similar file size as the full RAW, although they contain less image data. This article also says that hardly any software can work with sRAW files. So it seems it really is not a good idea to use it. 








sRAW Format Explained







photographylife.com


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> It seems an sRAW file already is demosaiced in the camera and is more similar to a JPEG. Like a JPEG wiith 14 bits or so instead of 8 bits. It seems some sRAWs even have a similar file size as the full RAW, although they contain less image data. This article also says that hardly any software can work with sRAW files. So it seems it really is not a good idea to use it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sRAW is not RAW. If you’re interested in a more in-depth examination of Canon’s sRAW and mRAW formats (with a short description of RAW to start, for comparison), see the excellent article by Doug Kerr.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 27, 2021)

UpstateNYPhotog said:


> I think the image stabilization is a big point, especially if you have some older, non stabilized lenses. The focusing accuracy and the ability to focus just a little bit further off center are huge. I do a lot of low light people work and the liveview focusing in my 5D IV has sold me on mirrorless.


I just wish Canon would make a DSLR with IBIS.
They could if they wanted to.
It would be an automatic sale for me but I still would keep my R5.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 27, 2021)

schaudi said:


> If I remember correctly this "best-selling" DSLR ist one of the very cheapest. You should keep in mind, that u can get new Canon DSLRs sometimes for under 300€ (with Lens and accessories), while the cheapest Canon DSLM is twice as expensive -> of course the big group of cheap consumers still buys a lot of DSLRs.


In the USA, The difference between the cheapest DSLR and the cheapest mirrorless is $100.
While that is a big difference in terms of percentage cost, it is nowhere near twice as much.


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## AEWest (Jun 27, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I just wish Canon would make a DSLR with IBIS.
> They could if they wanted to.
> It would be an automatic sale for me but I still would keep my R5.


Two problems with Canon doing that (at least to Canon):
1. Such a camera would not result in any additional RF lens sales which is a high priority for Canon;
2. Amortizing the additional engineering costs for DSLR IBIS would have to be absorbed by just one camera model as Canon is phasing out the DSLR product line.

It is therefore extremely unlikely they would go down that road.


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## rrajani (Jun 27, 2021)

So Excited ...
A.Rrajani Photographer


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## peters (Jun 27, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> who needs to run 120fps 4k that long? What are you filming full sports in 120?


You underestimate just how incredible fast the R5 overheats. On a sunny day is realy a dealbreaker.
Last shooting I got the overheat warning after 45 minutes of shooting. In this time I only recorded 15 (!) minutes of 4k60 footage. Its aweful and a real problem on location. 
I used it in 4k25 after that.
Some time later I tried to record some 4k120 - after about 5 shots, each less than a minute it started blinkin again.
The 4k120 mode overheats incredible fast. Sometimes you need more than just 1 minute... 
but if you add up to maybe 5 minutes record time in maybe 30 minutes on set, you get the overheat...


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 27, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Two problems with Canon doing that (at least to Canon):
> 1. Such a camera would not result in any additional RF lens sales which is a high priority for Canon;
> 2. Amortizing the additional engineering costs for DSLR IBIS would have to be absorbed by just one camera model as Canon is phasing out the DSLR product line.
> 
> It is therefore extremely unlikely they would go down that road.


#2) Is not 100% fact.
Canon stated that they would not make any new DSLRs unless there is demand for it.
While that is not a commitment to make DSLRs if there is demand it definitely leaves open the possibility.
Canon has no inherent reason to phase out DSLRs or EF lenses.
A sale is a sale.
If they determine that they can make more money off DSLRs then they have no reason not to.
When it comes to R and D, Canon has a bunch of lovely patents that will expire if they do not use them.
I have no idea how much demand Canon requires but I am part of that demand.


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## John Wilde (Jun 27, 2021)

djack41 said:


> Bit let down. The Sony A1 is 50 MP and just as fast. I hope the AF really performs.


This is an R3, not an R1. Canon wrote that the R3 is "positioned squarely between the EOS R5 and EOS-1D X Mark III cameras."


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## AEWest (Jun 27, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> #2) Is not 100% fact.
> Canon stated that they would not make any new DSLRs unless there is demand for it.
> While that is not a commitment to make DSLRs if there is demand it definitely leaves open the possibility.
> Canon has no inherent reason to phase out DSLRs or EF lenses.
> ...


I am a happy Canon DSLR owner, but do see the writing on the wall. Canon would not want to keep two competing product lines going for very long, they would be competing against themselves in addition to Sony and Nikon.

In addition, I believe they hedged their bets by saying they may develop future DSLRs. Specifically I believe they meant that if mirrorless sales were lackluster, they could go back to DSLRs as a fallback (i.e. Plan B). But the market has strongly accepted the RF cameras and lenses, so its full speed ahead on Plan A.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Canon would not want to keep two competing product lines going for very long, they would be competing against themselves in addition to Sony and Nikon.


The EOS M line launched in 2012. If Canon didn’t want to keep two ‘competing product lines’ then why have they done so for close to a decade?


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## AEWest (Jun 27, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> The EOS M line launched in 2012. If Canon didn’t want to keep two ‘competing product lines’ then why have they done so for close to a decade?


I would not consider the M line competing with the FF line. It is a complementary line for specific users, little overlap.

As an example, a 5DIV user shooting a wedding with a few EF lenses could instead be using an R5 with the RF version of those lenses. Canon wants to eliminate this overlap.


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## usern4cr (Jun 27, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> sRAW is not RAW. If you’re interested in a more in-depth examination of Canon’s sRAW and mRAW formats (with a short description of RAW to start, for comparison), see the excellent article by Doug Kerr.


Why are we talking about sRAW? The Canon option in the R5 is cRAW. After reading the article you mentioned here (thanks, neuroanatomist) I see that sRAW reduces the resolution to a mere 1/4 of the pixels and then discards more chrominance data after that (which doesn't sound good). But cRAW shows (in the post software I've seen) the same #MPixels and typically 50% of the filesize. I would be more interested in the mechanism of cRAW to decide on its usage.

I am one that has been impacted enough by too many photos at full 45MP raw size, and have opted for cRAW because of it. That means I'm already severely affected by R5 filesize enough to try to mitigate it. One advantage of the R3 30MP vs R5 45MP would be an expected reduction of 33% in the full raw size from the R5 to the R3. It might be reduced enough that I just use the R3 full RAW instead of the R5 cRAW, which might be a much better thing for me to use.


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## unfocused (Jun 27, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I am a happy Canon DSLR owner, but do see the writing on the wall. Canon would not want to keep two competing product lines going for very long, they would be competing against themselves in addition to Sony and Nikon.
> 
> In addition, I believe they hedged their bets by saying they may develop future DSLRs. Specifically I believe they meant that if mirrorless sales were lackluster, they could go back to DSLRs as a fallback (i.e. Plan B). But the market has strongly accepted the RF cameras and lenses, so its full speed ahead on Plan A.


I am a happy mirrorless owner, but I can entertain the possibility that Canon could continue to develop DSLRs well into the future. It really depends on whether or not Canon can convert enough DSLR owners to mirrorless and attract enough new customers that they can afford to write off DSLR buyers. 

In a shrinking market each loyal customer becomes more valuable and it is simply a mathematical proposition for Canon. Can they make a profit making and selling DSLRs to a smaller base? Can they convert those customers to the R system? If their financial people say yes to the first question and the marketing people say no to the second, then we will see new DSLRs in a few years once Canon has built out the R system.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I would not consider the M line competing with the FF line. It is a complementary line for specific users, little overlap.


I didn’t say that. The M line ‘competed’ with Canon’s APS-C DSLRs, especially the xxxD series. In fact, it still does (and in Japan last month, the Kiss X10/250D was the best-selling ILC, and the Kiss M/M50 and their MkII versions were close behind). Canon has no problem with that, why would they suddenly be afraid of FF DSLRs ‘competing’ with FF MILCs?

I’m putting ‘competing’ in quotes because it’s really not competition. Whether Canon sells a DSLR or an MILC to a customer, it’s a sale. You may want to brush up on your business acumen.



AEWest said:


> As an example, a 5DIV user shooting a wedding with a few EF lenses could instead be using an R5 with the RF version of those lenses. Canon wants to eliminate this overlap.


Sure. That’s why Canon has given the RF lenses advantages over their EF counterparts in many cases. A 24-70/2.8 with IS. A 28-70 f/2. A 15-35/2.8 with IS instead of a 16-35/2.8 without, and now a 14-35/4 IS instead of a 16-35/4 IS. Et cetera.

But if a 5DIV user wants to buy a 16-35/2.8 III or a 5DIII user wants a 5DIV, Canon will happily sell them.

So far this year, the MILC : DSLR ratio has been 56:44. Last year, it was 55:45. Barely a majority for mirrorless. I really don’t understand why people seem to think Canon would just abandon nearly half of their market.


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## Skyscraperfan (Jun 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I just wish Canon would make a DSLR with IBIS.
> They could if they wanted to.
> It would be an automatic sale for me but I still would keep my R5.


Somewhere I read an explanation why that is unlikely: The idea of a DSLR is that you take a photo of what you see through the viewfinder. If the sensor is stabilized and the mirror is not, you lose that connection. That is different from using a stabilized lens, which will also appear stabilized through the optical viewfinder.


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## UpstateNYPhotog (Jun 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> #2) Is not 100% fact.
> Canon stated that they would not make any new DSLRs unless there is demand for it.
> While that is not a commitment to make DSLRs if there is demand it definitely leaves open the possibility.
> Canon has no inherent reason to phase out DSLRs or EF lenses.
> ...


I would buy a DSLR with IBIS. I have some very good non IS legacy glass. But given the rate at which the are discontinuing making EF lenses I doubt there will ever be another moderate to high end full frame Canon DSLR. I'd love to be proven wrong. I think the other killer feature of the new mirrorless cameras is the focusing accuracy and ability to track subjects around the frame. I've borrowed them and used them enough to know they aren't perfect, but in general they are a big step up from the 5 series and a smaller, but important step up from the 1 series. I've shot professionally with every 1 series except the early full frame versions and the 1Dx III and every 5 series. The liveview in my 5D IV beats all of them for focus.


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## UpstateNYPhotog (Jun 28, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> Somewhere I read an explanation why that is unlikely: The idea of a DSLR is that you take a photo of what you see through the viewfinder. If the sensor is stabilized and the mirror is not, you lose that connection. That is different from using a stabilized lens, which will also appear stabilized through the optical viewfinder.


You'd just have to learn to shoot a little bit loose. I'd be worried that the theoretical single plane movement of the sensor might have just enough play in two or more planes to through off the AF. But I'm not an engineer so this is just a guess.


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## unfocused (Jun 28, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I really don’t understand why people seem to think Canon would just abandon nearly half of their market.


Because forum people treat it like a religion, while Canon treats it like a business.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 28, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> Somewhere I read an explanation why that is unlikely: The idea of a DSLR is that you take a photo of what you see through the viewfinder. If the sensor is stabilized and the mirror is not, you lose that connection. That is different from using a stabilized lens, which will also appear stabilized through the optical viewfinder.


Technically correct, but I don’t think that would be a major impediment. Sensor stabilization could be operating, but only actually effective at the time of image capture instead of during composition.

There is a good precedent for that – Mode 3 IS on newer long lenses (EF, and I’m pretty sure RF as well although I haven’t checked the latter), where the IS only activates at the moment the shot is taken.


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## AEWest (Jun 28, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I didn’t say that. The M line ‘competed’ with Canon’s APS-C DSLRs, especially the xxxD series. In fact, it still does (and in Japan last month, the Kiss X10/250D was the best-selling ILC, and the Kiss M/M50 and their MkII versions were close behind). Canon has no problem with that, why would they suddenly be afraid of FF DSLRs ‘competing’ with FF MILCs?
> 
> I’m putting ‘competing’ in quotes because it’s really not competition. Whether Canon sells a DSLR or an MILC to a customer, it’s a sale. You may want to brush up on your business acumen.
> 
> ...


I guess Canon has poor business acumen. When they switched from FD to EF mount, they phased out of FD even though many photographers had FD cameras and could not even adapt the EF lenses. Many would have loved for Canon to continue with the FD mount for years (and bought many more FD mount cameras), but it was phased out very quickly. Strange thing is Canon overtook Nikon in the SLR market to become #1 with the new mount despite abandoning their loyal FD base.

The reality is that it is not about just making an individual camera and selling it (DSLR or Mirrorless), it is about a full system based on lenses. I know of no manufacturer that can afford to run two lines of 80+ lens systems which is what would be needed to keep all EF and RF users happy in the long run. So the M and EF-S lines are simply not comparable examples because they are very limited line systems - not a lot of investment needed.

Canon has to make a choice on their main camera system, and it appears with every passing day that RF is their go to system. This can be seen in the cameras and lenses announced over the past two years (1Dx3 being the last EF FF camera in January 2020) and no new EF lenses announced over that time. Sony has also abandoned the A mount for the E mount, I guess more poor business acumen.

I would love for Canon to continue the EF line for the next 10 years as I am heavily invested in it. The reality is Canon is investing heavily in the RF system (three new RF cameras since the 1Dx3, many lenses), and they need as many photographers to move over as quickly as possible to this system to amortize the substantial development costs. That becomes much more difficult if they retain the EF mount for a long period of time.


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## UpstateNYPhotog (Jun 28, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I guess Canon has poor business acumen. When they switched from FD to EF mount, they phased out of FD even though many photographers had FD cameras and could not even adapt the EF lenses. Many would have loved for Canon to continue with the FD mount for years (and bought many more FD mount cameras), but it was phased out very quickly. Strange thing is Canon overtook Nikon in the SLR market to become #1 with the new mount despite abandoning their loyal FD base.
> 
> The reality is that it is not about just making an individual camera and selling it (DSLR or Mirrorless), it is about a full system based on lenses. I know of no manufacturer that can afford to run two lines of 80+ lens systems which is what would be needed to keep all EF and RF users happy in the long run. So the M and EF-S lines are simply not comparable examples because they are very limited line systems - not a lot of investment needed.
> 
> ...


Maybe your first sentence is sarcastic? I had a full FD system, from 20mm to 400mm all F/2.8 or faster. Did the switch to EFi hurt? Yes. Was I able to sell most of them for something? Yes. Was the EOS system far superior? Yes. I believe there was an FD to EF adapter available for CPS members. I remember researching it. I think it was a 1.3 teleconverter. I never saw one in the flesh. 

I think that the functionallity of EF lens on the RF mount via the adapter is sensational. It's nothing like as traumatic as the FD to EF switch.

I think you undermine you first point when you say "no manufacturer that can afford to run two lines of 80+ lens systems."


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## David - Sydney (Jun 28, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I would not consider the M line competing with the FF line. It is a complementary line for specific users, little overlap.
> 
> As an example, a 5DIV user shooting a wedding with a few EF lenses could instead be using an R5 with the RF version of those lenses. Canon wants to eliminate this overlap.


Neuro's original post was comparing APS-C DLSRs with the APS-C M series.

For full frame, Canon has had competition between the EOS R and 5D for coming up to 3 years now and the RP vs 6Dii for a bit over 2 years so far. I haven't seen much discounting for the 5Div so far so it must still be selling okay and no need to discontinue it. I recall that the 5Diii was still available for some time after the 5Div was released as well

In addition to the 2 scenarios you mention 5Div+EF and R5+RF there is the normal transition option of R5+EF. I think that there were very few R5 buyers that immediately went for all RF lenses not least of which were the gaps in the RF lens lineup that EF fill nicely. 

Canon doesn't want to eliminate the overlap. They want existing EF lens users to leverage their existing investment and then move to RF lenses when they feel the time is right based on improved specifications: up to 8 stops of IBIS, sharpness, focal length width (RF15-35mm/2.8, RF14-35/4, RF100-500mm), extending design for compact storage and reduced weight in some cases, improved minimum focus length (RF100 macro, etc). 

My EF16-35mm/4 is my most used lens and used in difficult circumstances with no problems but I won't upgrade to RF14-35mm as the filter cost alone makes it cost prohibitive. If my EF16-35mm dies EF100mm macro die or covered under insurance claim then it will be a no-brainer to go to RF.


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## David - Sydney (Jun 28, 2021)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Invest in camera glass...not the camera bodies. The bodies worth drop like a hot brick over 3-5 years. Most lenses only take a 20% hit over their life span of 10-20 years.


It might depend on the local market... Most current EF lenses go for ~60% of retail value for good examples. Previous version for about a third. The EF100-400mm ii is an exception with about 70-80% second hand price which is why I went to RF100-500mm (@ 20% off sale). EF70-200/2.8ii is about 60% of the new mark iii retail price. Very few ads for EF70-200mm/2.8iii though.

For bodies, the 5Div is selling second hand for ~60% of retail price with reasonable shutter count and a few years old. I bought mine second hand and then sold it for slightly more than I sold it for!

The market for EF lenses is obviously a bit saturated due to people migrating to RF. This will depress their prices permanently but their performance will continue to be excellent for many years to come.

It would be tough to decide which OEM/mirror v mirrorless to choose from if I was to start a camera kit from scratch now. From a pure cost perspective, second hand Canon DLSR + EF lenses would make good financial sense. Sony's marketing machine (including fanbois) would be hard to ignore though.


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## 2Cents (Jun 28, 2021)

AEWest said:


> The R1 may well be a slower shooting high MP studio camera rather than a sports camera. So the right choice may depend on your type of photography.


I shoot a wide variety of things including quite a bit of video. I also have a R5 but as my collection of RF glass grows I'm using the 1DX mkiii less often. This 1D durability in a mirrorless camera has my attention also. Durability is important when spending this much money. Assuming we're talking $5k+


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## AEWest (Jun 28, 2021)

UpstateNYPhotog said:


> Maybe your first sentence is sarcastic? I had a full FD system, from 20mm to 400mm all F/2.8 or faster. Did the switch to EFi hurt? Yes. Was I able to sell most of them for something? Yes. Was the EOS system far superior? Yes. I believe there was an FD to EF adapter available for CPS members. I remember researching it. I think it was a 1.3 teleconverter. I never saw one in the flesh.
> 
> I think that the functionallity of EF lens on the RF mount via the adapter is sensational. It's nothing like as traumatic as the FD to EF switch.
> 
> I think you undermine you first point when you say "no manufacturer that can afford to run two lines of 80+ lens systems."


I don’t remember an FD to EF converter. My point was that Canon is moving to RF, and phasing out of EF, which is a very expensive proposition. They need to encourage as many photographers as possible to make the switch. Making more EF cameras discourages the switch.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 28, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I guess Canon has poor business acumen. When they switched from FD to EF mount, they phased out of FD even though many photographers had FD cameras and could not even adapt the EF lenses.


You stated that Canon cannot run two competing systems. I pointed out that they have done just that for nearly a decade with APS/C, and a few years with FF. Having said that, I do believe they will phase out FF DSLRs and EF lenses. But not that rapidly.



AEWest said:


> Canon has to make a choice on their main camera system, and it appears with every passing day that RF is their go to system.


It depends on how you define ‘main camera system’. Canon sells far more APS-C cameras than FF cameras. They sell far more EF-S and -M lenses than EF and RF.




AEWest said:


> When they switched from FD to EF mount, they phased out of FD even though many photographers had FD cameras and could not even adapt the EF lenses.


EF offered a paradigm-shifting advantage – autofocus. Digital offered a paradigm-shifting advantage – instant image review gratification. MILCs are basically DSLRs without a mirror.


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## David - Sydney (Jun 28, 2021)

peters said:


> You underestimate just how incredible fast the R5 overheats. On a sunny day is realy a dealbreaker.
> Last shooting I got the overheat warning after 45 minutes of shooting. In this time I only recorded 15 (!) minutes of 4k60 footage. Its aweful and a real problem on location.
> I used it in 4k25 after that.
> Some time later I tried to record some 4k120 - after about 5 shots, each less than a minute it started blinkin again.
> ...


4k120 is great but does hit overheating limits quickly. That said, with 128GB cards, it only fits ~5 minutes of record time. More than enough for my requirements though.
In hot/summer indoor action shooting (>35C) over a couple of hours with continuous burst, my R5 did show the overheating lamp but of course the R5 didn't have any still shooting issues.

It sounds like you need an external recorder for your 4k60 and remove the cards to get longer record times. Can't use 4k120 externally though and Canon didn't include a IPB light option in the latest firmware :-(


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## privatebydesign (Jun 28, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I don’t remember an FD to EF converter. My point was that Canon is moving to RF, and phasing out of EF, which is a very expensive proposition. They need to encourage as many photographers as possible to make the switch. Making more EF cameras discourages the switch.


Yes there was an official Canon FD to EOS adapter. It only worked on the white telephotos and was released in very limited numbers.



Canon Lens Mount Converter - FD-EOS + Macro


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## David - Sydney (Jun 28, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> MILCs are basically DSLRs without a mirror.


By definition (and pentaprism/AF sensor)! But it does enable a lot of other fun bits once a quality EVF is included and and reasonable battery life.
The 1DXiii is the interesting beast with leading class DLSR features but better AF/tracking in mirrorless mode.


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## jam05 (Jun 28, 2021)

exige24 said:


> This should cost the same as an R5. They've sacrificed too many features straight across with added features in other areas.
> A rip off if it costs substancally more.


R5 Features = firmware = $$$
R3 BSI stacked sensor = hardware + firmware + improved heat sink = $$$$


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## AEWest (Jun 28, 2021)

jam05 said:


> R5 Features = firmware = $$$
> R3 BSI stacked sensor = hardware + firmware + improved heat sink = $$$$


Plus grip $$


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## jam05 (Jun 28, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> No it is nothing like that at all! if I have a 10TB library why should I have to have a 20TB library instead when I have no practical use for any of that additional information.
> 
> What you are saying is we should all only be allowed to buy and shoot in 8k because it can be done, even if we have no use. for anything over 1080. What? Lol....


Dont buy it, or try to pursuade others from buying it, simply because it doesnt suit you


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## privatebydesign (Jun 28, 2021)

jam05 said:


> Dont buy it, or try to pursuade others from buying it, simply because it doesnt suit you


Clearly you weren’t following the conversation. I was being told I should buy stuff that doesn’t suit me just because it’s new technology. I was simply saying why? I wasn’t trying to convince anybody to do anything other than to stop telling me what I need when I know perfectly well what that is.


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## jam05 (Jun 28, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Canon also said at introduction that the R5 was NOT a replacement for the 5DIV, and yet it is.
> 
> They want to protect the 1Dx3's market value by calling it the flagship, but how can a camera with an obsolete mount be considered a flagship? The R3 will beat the 1Dx3 in almost every way, so it will be the flagship until the R1 arrives.


Thats not how flagship works. A new Toyoto Camry wont replace an older Lexus as flagship merely because of its age. Value marketing doesnt work that way. The consumers perceived value isnt based on the model year.


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## jam05 (Jun 28, 2021)

rontele7 said:


> EF mount is still superior, because it has the most native glass available by a very wide margin.
> 
> Also, for video, EF lenses will always be better than RF lenses. The EF to RF mounts with ND are a game changer, and ensure that video shooters won’t ever be buying RF glass. Much better to have an ND wheel between an EF lens and RF camera than a RF lens without the ability to control ND. Same is true for cine glass, why buy RF when you can use EF mount lenses with an ND wheel on the back end?


Because the motors and electronics will be outdated and obsolete as well as the optics


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## jam05 (Jun 28, 2021)

fox40phil said:


> Best is to have both card types for each slots! Like in the Sony A1! This is the best!


The A1 express bus being type slower. And the Canon express bus being faster, and the new SDexpress bus just as fast.


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## jam05 (Jun 28, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> SD Express spec 8 can handle 4gb/s ie the same as 4 PCIe lanes. CFe Type A = 1GB/s, Type B = 2GB/s, Type C (much bigger ) = 4GB/s.... but Lexar's write speed for the first SD Express card is 400MB/s to be released in 2022.
> 
> So yes, SD Express can be fast but there aren't controllers and cards that will be equivalent for a long time. SD Express will also not be available locally except in specialist stores.
> 
> ...





David - Sydney said:


> SD Express spec 8 can handle 4gb/s ie the same as 4 PCIe lanes. CFe Type A = 1GB/s, Type B = 2GB/s, Type C (much bigger ) = 4GB/s.... but Lexar's write speed for the first SD Express card is 400MB/s to be released in 2022.
> 
> So yes, SD Express can be fast but there aren't controllers and cards that will be equivalent for a long time. SD Express will also not be available locally except in specialist stores.
> 
> ...


Uh, CFexpress cards and the card readers required to transfer the data are indeed themselves "specialty" items with a unique niche set of consumers. SD card slots are consumer products. And the SDexpress cards will be backwards compatible and still as fast as CFexpress bus A


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## jam05 (Jun 28, 2021)

djack41 said:


> Bit let down. The Sony A1 is 50 MP and just as fast. I hope the AF really performs.


wont have to worry about EVF blackouts


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## jam05 (Jun 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> If R3 was the planned successor to the 1DX then it would have 2 CF Express slots.
> I get the feeling R3 was planned before the Z9 announcement and Canon is not as obsessed with what Sony does as social media is.


SDexpress will be as fast if not faster than most CFexpress cards. And more common


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## jam05 (Jun 28, 2021)

melgross said:


> If this is going to be an even higher end sports camera, then frankly, the R3 was a waste of time. That development time and money could have been better spent elsewhere. If Canon is following their old model of development, as some have suggested, the the R1 will not be another sports camera.


Canon says that the 1Dx3 flagship mirrorless replacement is not the R3. Its completely a new line. Thats simple and basic as it could be.


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## David - Sydney (Jun 28, 2021)

jam05 said:


> Uh, CFexpress cards and the card readers required to transfer the data are indeed themselves "specialty" items with a unique niche set of consumers. SD card slots are consumer products. And the SDexpress cards will be backwards compatible and still as fast as CFexpress bus A


Let's talk about today and for the next year or so.... We have USH-II cards and CFe A (Sony only and limited to 160GB at this time) and B (multiple OEMs, capacities and speeds). All CFe cards have faster write times than USH-II cards. Even when the Lexar SD Express card comes out next year, it will still be slower than all CFe cards.

Yes, SD Express looks interesting and potentially fast but the market will decide if becomes a standard or if it will be bypassed like USH-iii standard has been. It will be years until there are multiple OEMs making fast SD Express cards and multiple cameras using them and then we can talk about how successful SD Express will be. By that time, I believe that CFe B slot/cards will be entrenched for high end cameras simply for the video capability.

The worst case scenario of needing to buy a class 1 SD card from a supermarket in an emergency will only take a few still shots. Dual card slots should alleviate the need to cover multiple card failures. I guess that it is more likely that the tog has run out of space on the card itself. Better to format one card and the take the risk of card failure to double your space or use wifi/usb-c cable to offload

A single slot supporting SD Express, UHS-iii/UHS-ii/CFe type A cards would be a cool option though.


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## David - Sydney (Jun 28, 2021)

jam05 said:


> SDexpress will be as fast if not faster than most CFexpress cards. And more common


As with the Betamax vs VHS format war in the 1980s, cost and installed base ultimately determined the winner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotape_format_war
High end cameras have changed memory formats relatively frequently (CF, Cfast, XQD, CFe A/B and UHS-i/ii) depending on their need for speed. 

If there is no/limited cost difference for the card slot to handle multiple standards then the camera manufacturers won't have an issue. It is really about what the market is for the cards themselves. If the volume for SD Express is not high then the price won't fall.


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## Skyscraperfan (Jun 28, 2021)

It is sad that Canon no longer wants to give us the choice between DSLRs and mirrorless cameras. After a while they will proudly claim that most people switched to mirrorless and say that acceptance is very high, but is it really accaptance if you are forced to switch, because DSLRs are no longer developed? It reminds me of Microsoft proudly claiming how many people switched to Windows 10. Or some dictator claiming 95% percent of votes in an "election", although he was the only candidate. Or 16:9 TVs for example. After years I still hate that format and prefer the ration of 4:3, but I was more or less forced to move to 16:9. Or cellphones without an replaceable battery. Most people loved the option that they could replace the battery after two years or so and get the whole battery capacity again, but we were not given a choice. Luckily the EU might make replaceable batteries mandatory again, but the EU probably will not save DLSRs :-(

The only real advantage of mirrorless cameras is the shorter flange distance that makes new lens designs possible, but I probably would not buy those overpriced RF lenses anyway and instead use an EF adapater and therfore lose that advantage. All other features of mirrorless camera could be incorporated in the live view mode of a conventional DSLR for those who really want a mirrorless experience. Cameras like the 1D X Mark III already work like a mirrorless camera in live view mode and it would even be possible to attach an external EVF.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 28, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> It is sad that Canon no longer wants to give us the choice between DSLRs and mirrorless cameras. After a while they will proudly claim that most people switched to mirrorless and say that acceptance is very high, but is it really accaptance if you are forced to switch, because DSLRs are no longer developed? It reminds me of Microsoft proudly claiming how many people switched to Windows 10. Or some dictator claiming 95% percent of votes in an "election", although he was the only candidate. Or 16:9 TVs for example. After years I still hate that format and prefer the ration of 4:3, but I was more or less forced to move to 16:9. Or cellphones without an replaceable battery. Most people loved the option that they could replace the battery after two years or so and get the whole battery capacity again, but we were not given a choice. Luckily the EU might make replaceable batteries mandatory again, but the EU probably will not save DLSRs :-(
> 
> The only real advantage of mirrorless cameras is the shorter flange distance that makes new lens designs possible, but I probably would not buy those overpriced RF lenses anyway and instead use an EF adapater and therfore lose that advantage. All other features of mirrorless camera could be incorporated in the live view mode of a conventional DSLR for those who really want a mirrorless experience. Cameras like the 1D X Mark III already work like a mirrorless camera in live view mode and it would even be possible to attach an external EVF.



Developing 2 PRO systems and mounts takes lots of resources and they probably decided it's not worth it. In a few years most people will switch to mirrorless anyway. There will always be a few who want to use DSLR and optical viewfinder but that happens with film too. 
I personally wouldn't go back to chunky DSLR's, AF adjustments and flapping mirrors, but I like the OVF.


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## GMCPhotographics (Jun 28, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> It might depend on the local market... Most current EF lenses go for ~60% of retail value for good examples. Previous version for about a third. The EF100-400mm ii is an exception with about 70-80% second hand price which is why I went to RF100-500mm (@ 20% off sale). EF70-200/2.8ii is about 60% of the new mark iii retail price. Very few ads for EF70-200mm/2.8iii though.
> 
> For bodies, the 5Div is selling second hand for ~60% of retail price with reasonable shutter count and a few years old. I bought mine second hand and then sold it for slightly more than I sold it for!
> 
> ...


You are comparing new EF prices vs current S/H values. I bought my EF 85mm f1.2 IIL for £895 new, some time back. Since then, there's been several recessions and multiple RRP price hikes. Now it's still worth a wee bit more on the S/H market than I bought it for (and I've had years of good use out of it). Which is amazing considering that it's been effectively been superseded twice (ef 85mm f1.4L and rf 85mm f1.2L). I paid £3K each for my pair of 5DIII's bodies...latest and greatest at the time...now they are work about £700 each. Sure I've had good use out of them, but that's a large hit. DSLR / RF Bodies go down over time because they are being replaced by better models every few years. look at the price of a S/H EOS R's are compared to how much they cost new as few years back. Canon are actively targeting S/H cameras with their lower models because they don't make any money on S/H cameras. The 6D was designed to compete against (and be slightly better) than previous generation of 5D series on the S/H market. Compare how much a lens for the EOS R cost 3 years back compared to now...those same lenses now retail a little higher than 3 years back due to inflation and spiralling production costs. If you sold those 3 year old lens, you wouldn't loose out much. Give it a few more years and those lenses will be selling S/H for the same pair for it 3 years previous. But the Ros R and Rp are selling for a lot less S/H.

However, i do agree with you that your local market and local retailers have a lot of power over the S/H prices, desirability and new prices.


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## Del Paso (Jun 28, 2021)

UpstateNYPhotog said:


> Yes. My original model EF 300 2.8 still takes amazing images. I think it's remarkable that Canon built a system in the late 80's such that you can still mount those lenses on an R5 from 2020 and do amazing work. I can't think of any other piece of expensive high technology that is so backwards/forwards compatible. Not that I still don't miss my FD 400 2.8.


What about mounting rangefinder-coupled Leica screw-mount lenses from the twenties on a 2021 Leica digital body?
And Leicaflex 1964 lenses on a 2021 Leica SL2 body?


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## Copland (Jun 28, 2021)

> Dual card slot SD & CFExpress


Does that mean one slot for SD or CFe or like the R5 SD and CFe at the same time?

Normally Dual Card Slot (without "s") means: there is one slot, and both card types can be used, but only one or the other.
The Sony A1 for example has two Dual Card Slots.


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## sanj (Jun 28, 2021)

My big question is: Will the 4k of this camera be equal/better than the 8k of R5 converted to 4k? I adore how the R5 8k looks at 5k.


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## Skyscraperfan (Jun 28, 2021)

I have so far kept my strict policy of not selling any old camera equipment, even if I do not use it anymore. I do not like the idea that I get less money than I paid. So I do not care to much about losing value. I know that my 1D X is probably worth close to nothing now, but despite a few hot pixels it still does the same good photos as when I bought it many many years ago. I like the idea of still having all those stuff in 50 years from now like the old cameras your grandpa owned and never sold. 

I hope that the new wave of cameras, which is more and more dependent on electronic components, will also last forever like one of those old SLRs.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 28, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> Somewhere I read an explanation why that is unlikely: The idea of a DSLR is that you take a photo of what you see through the viewfinder. If the sensor is stabilized and the mirror is not, you lose that connection. That is different from using a stabilized lens, which will also appear stabilized through the optical viewfinder.


That sounds like a good explanation of why Canon and Nikon chose OIS over IBIS but I would still prefer to have both.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 28, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I am a happy Canon DSLR owner, but do see the writing on the wall. Canon would not want to keep two competing product lines going for very long,


Canon has had competing APS-C lines for a long time.
I am not sure they want to maintain that or even expand that further, but since Canon wins whichever one is sold it more comes down to whether or not it is worth it for them.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 28, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I would not consider the M line competing with the FF line.


It is a definite competitor to the APS-C DSLR line.
I would imagine that Canon sees it more as competing with Sony and Fuji than competing with themselves.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 28, 2021)

UpstateNYPhotog said:


> You'd just have to learn to shoot a little bit loose. I'd be worried that the theoretical single plane movement of the sensor might have just enough play in two or more planes to through off the AF. But I'm not an engineer so this is just a guess.


I do not really hear Pentax users complain.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 28, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I guess Canon has poor business acumen. When they switched from FD to EF mount, they phased out of FD even though many photographers had FD cameras and could not even adapt the EF lenses.


It surely worked out but it was a risky decision for sure.
Canon has been pretty conservative since then.


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## Skyscraperfan (Jun 28, 2021)

Did they announce yet at which time the announcement will be? Will there just be a press release or a real video or even live event?


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 28, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I don’t remember an FD to EF converter. My point was that Canon is moving to RF, and phasing out of EF, which is a very expensive proposition. They need to encourage as many photographers as possible to make the switch. Making more EF cameras discourages the switch.


I hear this a lot but I can't really make much sense of it.
Canon does not benefit that much by getting us existing DSLR customers to switch to mirrorless.
We were going to buy new DSLRs anyway.
The point of mirrorless is to sell to people who were not intending to buy DSLRs.
They want extra sales.
If Canon has decided that it is no longer profitable to make DSLRs then of course they will want us to buy their mirrorless cameras.
Maybe that is switching in the mind of some people but I would call that settling.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 28, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Can't use 4k120 externally


That might change with the Ninja V+.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 28, 2021)

sanj said:


> My big question is: Will the 4k of this camera be equal/better than the 8k of R5 converted to 4k? I adore how the R5 8k looks at 5k.


It will be downsampled from 6.7K so it will be less sharp but whether or not it is better depends on some other factors like dynamic range and overall noise.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 28, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Update: I’m getting mixed information as to whether or not it will be an official announcement tomorrow or just more information about the Canon EOS R3.


So maybe _not_ an announcement.


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## john1970 (Jun 28, 2021)

Would really like to have an official announcement, but we will know more in 24 hrs either way.


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## amorse (Jun 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I hear this a lot but I can't really make much sense of it.
> Canon does not benefit that much by getting us existing DSLR customers to switch to mirrorless.
> We were going to buy new DSLRs anyway.
> The point of mirrorless is to sell to people who were not intending to buy DSLRs.
> ...


Only Canon knows it's intent, but I think there are a few ways to look at that potential benefit to Canon by pushing people to switch. For instance, I suspect a lot of mirrorless buyers will end up re-buying lenses they already own in EF, resulting in greater lens sales than otherwise anticipated. Secondly, it may be a long term approach to maintaining customers. I think performing the autofocus on the sensor directly holds some clear opportunities and if Canon were to ignore mirrorless entirely, some people may become more likely to change brands in order to access those opportunities in the long run.

With respect to Canon only offering mirrorless to those who didn't want a DSLR, I'm not sure where Canon sees DSLRs in their future, but they have certainly put the vast majority of their effort into RF and relatively little into EF over the last while. They may indeed be pushing people to switch so they can move away from (or drastically reduce) DSLR production/development and there are certainly signs pointing that way. The last two DSLRs they released seem to be the 1DXIII and 850D in January and February of 2020, and plenty of camera lines appear to be either discontinued, behind on past release schedules, or nearing their typical renewal dates without any rumours of EF replacement. Further, the last EF lens releases were the 70-200 f/2.8 III and the 70-200 f/4 IS USM II in 2018; and several EF lenses have been rapidly discontinued, including one of the new EF 70-200's. None of that gives me a ton of confidence that a new batch of high-end DSLRs are coming from Canon. But hey, those sticking with DSLRs may yet be rewarded with extra cheap EF deals on the used market for a while so it's not all bad news!


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## tapanit (Jun 28, 2021)

UpstateNYPhotog said:


> I believe there was an FD to EF adapter available for CPS members. I remember researching it. I think it was a 1.3 teleconverter. I never saw one in the flesh.


There were two different FD-EF adapters: one with optical elements that was indeed a teleconverter, intended for telephotos, the other without optical elements, effectively an extension tube that resulted in loss of infinity focus, intended for macro lenses. Similar 3rd party adapters are still available.


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## Pixel (Jun 28, 2021)

lglass12189 said:


> Since when do CPS members get priority availability on products?


They don't. That's a Nikon thing.


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## Pixel (Jun 28, 2021)

AEWest said:


> They also said clearly that the R5 was not a replacement for the 5DIV...


They can't call a camera a "replacement" if the camera it's supposed to be replacing is still for sale!


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## JairoMartinez (Jun 28, 2021)

Need to know what the price will be to even consider it. other wise i see myself buying the 1DX mkiii


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## Skyscraperfan (Jun 28, 2021)

My biggest question would be how much IS improvement the IBIS would bring to an old EF lens like my 200-700 f/2.8 IS. Would it work well together or might it even work against it? I imagine the IS of the lens trying to bring a stable image onto the sensor and then the sensor moves to compensate camera shake. That might only work if the IS of the lens and the IBIS would be somehow coordinated. The thing I care most about when I buy a new camera or lens is the ability to get handheld shots with even less light than before. If my 70-200 could compensate two or three stops more, that would be a huge improvement.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 28, 2021)

rontele7 said:


> EF mount is still superior, because it has the most native glass available by a very wide margin.
> 
> Also, for video, EF lenses will always be better than RF lenses. The EF to RF mounts with ND are a game changer, and ensure that video shooters won’t ever be buying RF glass. Much better to have an ND wheel between an EF lens and RF camera than a RF lens without the ability to control ND. Same is true for cine glass, why buy RF when you can use EF mount lenses with an ND wheel on the back end?


I am probably going to give the Kolari Vision snap-in ND filters for RF a try.
That sounds like the best of both worlds.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 28, 2021)

fox40phil said:


> Best is to have both card types for each slots! Like in the Sony A1! This is the best!


I am not sold on CF Express Type A at all.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 28, 2021)

unfocused said:


> Said this before, if someone is writing to the second card slot as a backup, just write jpg to the second card. No risk of losing the work, but no slowdown either (or at least minimal slowdown) if you are writing sequentially to both cards then wait for a break in the action and put in a new card in the first slot. People act like this is some insurmountable challenge.


I shoot like that.
People are talking like it is the end of the world but it is a bit of an inconvenience to have separate readers for each card. I only fall back to the RAW file if there is extra cropping, processing, or latitude needed.
It is a little inconvenient to keep files on two separate cards.


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## arbitrage (Jun 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> but it is a bit of an inconvenience to have separate readers for each card.


Prograde has you covered: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...wcfxsdana_digital_cfxb_sdxc_sdhc_usb_3_1.html
As does Wise: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...a_cxs07_wise_advanced_cfexpress_sdxc_usb.html


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 28, 2021)

arbitrage said:


> Prograde has you covered: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...wcfxsdana_digital_cfxb_sdxc_sdhc_usb_3_1.html
> As does Wise: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...a_cxs07_wise_advanced_cfexpress_sdxc_usb.html


Thanks! That's awesome.


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## arbitrage (Jun 28, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> So maybe _not_ an announcement.


Of course not....Canon set a standard with the R5 of having at least three teaser announcements before the full one. They wouldn't want to disappoint with the flagship R3 having less than three....


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## PureClassA (Jun 28, 2021)

This thing is going to be a monster. I can't even imagine what else they would cram into the R1 later on. Higher MP sensor that does 8K? And Besides that? Interested to see the video frame rates this thing can manage. Could be THE most perfect hybrid. This could easily replace my 1DX2, EOS R and R6. This camera with a C70 sounds like it would cover all the bases (because I often shoot video with TWO rigs simultaneously)


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## UpstateNYPhotog (Jun 28, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> You stated that Canon cannot run two competing systems. I pointed out that they have done just that for nearly a decade with APS/C, and a few years with FF. Having said that, I do believe they will phase out FF DSLRs and EF lenses. But not that rapidly.
> 
> 
> It depends on how you define ‘main camera system’. Canon sells far more APS-C cameras than FF cameras. They sell far more EF-S and -M lenses than EF and RF.
> ...


I wouldn't call the APS/C lens line up a full line up. Its was only consumer specification lenses. They never made pro spec lenses that would have been much lighter than the equivalent full frame lenses. You still had to buy heavy, large full frame lenses to get high performance glass, or go with third party lenses.


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## UpstateNYPhotog (Jun 28, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> It is sad that Canon no longer wants to give us the choice between DSLRs and mirrorless cameras. After a while they will proudly claim that most people switched to mirrorless and say that acceptance is very high, but is it really accaptance if you are forced to switch, because DSLRs are no longer developed? It reminds me of Microsoft proudly claiming how many people switched to Windows 10. Or some dictator claiming 95% percent of votes in an "election", although he was the only candidate. Or 16:9 TVs for example. After years I still hate that format and prefer the ration of 4:3, but I was more or less forced to move to 16:9. Or cellphones without an replaceable battery. Most people loved the option that they could replace the battery after two years or so and get the whole battery capacity again, but we were not given a choice. Luckily the EU might make replaceable batteries mandatory again, but the EU probably will not save DLSRs :-(
> 
> The only real advantage of mirrorless cameras is the shorter flange distance that makes new lens designs possible, but I probably would not buy those overpriced RF lenses anyway and instead use an EF adapater and therfore lose that advantage. All other features of mirrorless camera could be incorporated in the live view mode of a conventional DSLR for those who really want a mirrorless experience. Cameras like the 1D X Mark III already work like a mirrorless camera in live view mode and it would even be possible to attach an external EVF.


Liveview is awkward off the backscreen of a DSLR. I know. I've shot a lot of paid jobs that way. The AF accuracy of LiveView/mirrorless in general is far superior to DSLR AF. The ability to focus into the corners is far superior. Those are much better reasons for mirrorless cameras than better lens designs made possible via short flange depth. I doubt most people ever get the most out of their DSLR EF lenses due to focus inaccuracy issues with DSLR's and assorted subject/situation limitations.


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## UpstateNYPhotog (Jun 28, 2021)

Del Paso said:


> What about mounting rangefinder-coupled Leica screw-mount lenses from the twenties on a 2021 Leica digital body?
> And Leicaflex 1964 lenses on a 2021 Leica SL2 body?


That's hilarious. But think about it. 1980's AF tech in a 300 2.8 still works great in 2021!


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## UpstateNYPhotog (Jun 28, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> My biggest question would be how much IS improvement the IBIS would bring to an old EF lens like my 200-700 f/2.8 IS. Would it work well together or might it even work against it? I imagine the IS of the lens trying to bring a stable image onto the sensor and then the sensor moves to compensate camera shake. That might only work if the IS of the lens and the IBIS would be somehow coordinated. The thing I care most about when I buy a new camera or lens is the ability to get handheld shots with even less light than before. If my 70-200 could compensate two or three stops more, that would be a huge improvement.


I tried a 70-200 IS III with a R-5. They worked great together. I realize that's not the same version as yours. I believe the Mark II or Mark III of that lens is optically superior to your original version IS lens. You can get Mark II's pretty inexpensively right now. Great lens.


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## Juangrande (Jun 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I shoot like that.
> People are talking like it is the end of the world but it is a bit of an inconvenience to have separate readers for each card. I only fall back to the RAW file if there is extra cropping, processing, or latitude needed.
> It is a little inconvenient to keep files on two separate cards.


Well I would never shoot .jpg not even as a backup. I can’t do anything quality wise in post with a .jpg so it’s useless except maybe as a quick BTS image for a social media post.


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## DrToast (Jun 28, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> It is sad that Canon no longer wants to give us the choice between DSLRs and mirrorless cameras. After a while they will proudly claim that most people switched to mirrorless and say that acceptance is very high, but is it really accaptance if you are forced to switch, because DSLRs are no longer developed? It reminds me of Microsoft proudly claiming how many people switched to Windows 10. Or some dictator claiming 95% percent of votes in an "election", although he was the only candidate. Or 16:9 TVs for example. After years I still hate that format and prefer the ration of 4:3, but I was more or less forced to move to 16:9. Or cellphones without an replaceable battery. Most people loved the option that they could replace the battery after two years or so and get the whole battery capacity again, but we were not given a choice. Luckily the EU might make replaceable batteries mandatory again, but the EU probably will not save DLSRs :-(
> 
> The only real advantage of mirrorless cameras is the shorter flange distance that makes new lens designs possible, but I probably would not buy those overpriced RF lenses anyway and instead use an EF adapater and therfore lose that advantage. All other features of mirrorless camera could be incorporated in the live view mode of a conventional DSLR for those who really want a mirrorless experience. Cameras like the 1D X Mark III already work like a mirrorless camera in live view mode and it would even be possible to attach an external EVF.


Canon is a for-profit company. If they decided to stop producing DSLRs it’s because they have determined the market HAS chosen. It may not be YOUR choice, but thems the breaks.

Look at Sony. The A-mount was never a huge seller (I know, fixed mirror). Suddenly they launch the E-mount and they’re top dog in a few years.


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## Twiseldorf (Jun 28, 2021)

Has anyone had experience using the mirrorless cameras with studio strobes? I have an RP and what I don't like about using studio strobes in an indoor setting is that if the room is dark and your modeling lights are tungsten or halogen balanced, the live image in the viewfinder is yellowish, since your white balance is set to flash or daylight. Does Canon have a way of independently setting the viewfinder white balance to be different than the capture white balance?


----------



## Juangrande (Jun 28, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> It is sad that Canon no longer wants to give us the choice between DSLRs and mirrorless cameras. After a while they will proudly claim that most people switched to mirrorless and say that acceptance is very high, but is it really accaptance if you are forced to switch, because DSLRs are no longer developed? It reminds me of Microsoft proudly claiming how many people switched to Windows 10. Or some dictator claiming 95% percent of votes in an "election", although he was the only candidate. Or 16:9 TVs for example. After years I still hate that format and prefer the ration of 4:3, but I was more or less forced to move to 16:9. Or cellphones without an replaceable battery. Most people loved the option that they could replace the battery after two years or so and get the whole battery capacity again, but we were not given a choice. Luckily the EU might make replaceable batteries mandatory again, but the EU probably will not save DLSRs :-(
> 
> The only real advantage of mirrorless cameras is the shorter flange distance that makes new lens designs possible, but I probably would not buy those overpriced RF lenses anyway and instead use an EF adapater and therfore lose that advantage. All other features of mirrorless camera could be incorporated in the live view mode of a conventional DSLR for those who really want a mirrorless experience. Cameras like the 1D X Mark III already work like a mirrorless camera in live view mode and it would even be possible to attach an external EVF.


You sound like feverish, selfish little clot of ailments and grievances, complaining that the world will not devote itself to making you happy. You probably complained when you were “forced” to switch from a b/w tv to the new fangled color tv’s. You sound like you’ve been around that long. Now get off my lawn gabnabit!


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## Juangrande (Jun 28, 2021)

Twiseldorf said:


> Has anyone had experience using the mirrorless cameras with studio strobes? I have an RP and what I don't like about using studio strobes in an indoor setting is that if the room is dark and your modeling lights are tungsten or halogen balanced, the live image in the viewfinder is yellowish, since your white balance is set to flash or daylight. Does Canon have a way of independently setting the viewfinder white balance to be different than the capture white balance?


I don’t know what lights your using but all my modeling lamps are daylight/flash balanced, I rarely use modeling lamps anyways except maybe to initially set up my lights. But when shooting in studio set the cameras default exposure simulation to off and you’ll be able to see a bright image on the lcd the same as you would if it were a dslr in studio. You won’t see the actual ambient light settings but if your shooting in a studio your probably wanting to nullify the ambient light contamination anyways. If not and you want to combine the ambient and the flash exposure together, leave the default exposure simulation on. I’ve set up one of the “C” menu functions as a quick way to go from normal ambient to studio flash only conditions back and forth quickly.


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## Marximusprime (Jun 28, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> My biggest question would be how much IS improvement the IBIS would bring to an old EF lens like my 200-700 f/2.8 IS. Would it work well together or might it even work against it? I imagine the IS of the lens trying to bring a stable image onto the sensor and then the sensor moves to compensate camera shake. That might only work if the IS of the lens and the IBIS would be somehow coordinated. The thing I care most about when I buy a new camera or lens is the ability to get handheld shots with even less light than before. If my 70-200 could compensate two or three stops more, that would be a huge improvement.



I would be interested in buying a 200-700 2.8 if you know where I can find one.


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## UpstateNYPhotog (Jun 28, 2021)

Marximusprime said:


> I would be interested in buying a 200-700 2.8 if you know where I can find one.


No offense intended, but their username should be Marximuszoom!


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## RayValdez360 (Jun 28, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> My biggest question would be how much IS improvement the IBIS would bring to an old EF lens like my 200-700 f/2.8 IS. Would it work well together or might it even work against it? I imagine the IS of the lens trying to bring a stable image onto the sensor and then the sensor moves to compensate camera shake. That might only work if the IS of the lens and the IBIS would be somehow coordinated. The thing I care most about when I buy a new camera or lens is the ability to get handheld shots with even less light than before. If my 70-200 could compensate two or three stops more, that would be a huge improvement.


the answer should be known because the r5 existys already. I never saw anyone comment on it though. if there is an issue just turn the IS off and rely on ibis 
at worst


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## Skyscraperfan (Jun 28, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> the answer should be known because the r5 existys already. I never saw anyone comment on it though. if there is an issue just turn the IS off and rely on ibis
> at worst


Of course I can turn it off, but I was hoping for improvement.


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## Sporgon (Jun 28, 2021)

Juangrande said:


> Well I would never shoot .jpg not even as a backup. I can’t do anything quality wise in post with a .jpg so it’s useless except maybe as a quick BTS image for a social media post.


Maybe get it right in camera ?


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## koenkooi (Jun 28, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> the answer should be known because the r5 existys already. I never saw anyone comment on it though. if there is an issue just turn the IS off and rely on ibis
> at worst


Which you can't do. It's all or nothing, turning off in-lens IS also turns off IBIS. This is one of the reasons I'm replacing my EF100L macro with the RF100L, the EF-IS+IBIS doesn't seem to be an improvement. The 1:1.4 magnification ratio got me to 99% of preordering it, the coordinated IS pushed it to 100%


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## RayValdez360 (Jun 28, 2021)

koenkooi said:


> Which you can't do. It's all or nothing, turning off in-lens IS also turns off IBIS. This is one of the reasons I'm replacing my EF100L macro with the RF100L, the EF-IS+IBIS doesn't seem to be an improvement. The 1:1.4 magnification ratio got me to 99% of preordering it, the coordinated IS pushed it to 100



I thought that was the point of the firmware update for the 3 RF zooms only. Turn off IS to turn off IBIS. Are you sure that is the case for EF lens. Like i said I never seen any experimentation on EF IS mixed with IBIS.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 28, 2021)

koenkooi said:


> Which you can't do. It's all or nothing, turning off in-lens IS also turns off IBIS. This is one of the reasons I'm replacing my EF100L macro with the RF100L, the EF-IS+IBIS doesn't seem to be an improvement. The 1:1.4 magnification ratio got me to 99% of preordering it, the coordinated IS pushed it to 100%


We have to get Canon to fix this.
I would be willing to install Magic Lantern just for that feature.


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## Juangrande (Jun 28, 2021)

Sporgon said:


> Maybe get it right in camera ?


Ha! Trust me know what I’m doing. I do high end portraiture and fine art composite works. Post production is a large part of the process. That can’t be done starting from a .jpg. Sometimes I layer multiple exposures to get a higher bit count for tonal graduation. I have shot corporate events where the final use is just social media. For that work .jpg is ok. I would still shoot raw though and convert later to .jpg just in case they really liked an image and wanted to use it in print media. But the original post was pretty adamant about people only needing to shoot .jpg as a backup so I had to retort as they were speaking in absolutes and that’s nonsense.


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## usern4cr (Jun 29, 2021)

unfocused said:


> Said this before, if someone is writing to the second card slot as a backup, just write jpg to the second card. No risk of losing the work, but no slowdown either (or at least minimal slowdown) if you are writing sequentially to both cards then wait for a break in the action and put in a new card in the first slot. People act like this is some insurmountable challenge.


I've only wanted to have raw files and so it never occurred to me to consider a jpg as a backup. But when I want to allow the maximum shooting speed without buffering delays, I think I'll go ahead and use your suggestion of jpg backups to the 2nd slower slot. After all, a jpg backup might be better than no backup in case of a main card malfunction (I say "might" because I detest jpg and the lack of epic post improvement ability on it, but sometimes the image in a shot turns out so great that you can tolerate a poor jpg encoding of it).


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## usern4cr (Jun 29, 2021)

arbitrage said:


> Prograde has you covered: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...wcfxsdana_digital_cfxb_sdxc_sdhc_usb_3_1.html
> As does Wise: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...a_cxs07_wise_advanced_cfexpress_sdxc_usb.html


I got the Prograde Cfexpress b/sd reader since I'd rather pop either card out and into the reader to transfer files than to hook a cable up to the R5 and it's fragile connector. The Prograde reader transfers files so much faster than the wired R5 & Canon software that it makes you marvel at how good one is while the other is so slow and cumbersome.


----------



## usern4cr (Jun 29, 2021)

PureClassA said:


> This thing is going to be a monster. I can't even imagine what else they would cram into the R1 later on. Higher MP sensor that does 8K? And Besides that? Interested to see the video frame rates this thing can manage. Could be THE most perfect hybrid. This could easily replace my 1DX2, EOS R and R6. This camera with a C70 sounds like it would cover all the bases (because I often shoot video with TWO rigs simultaneously)


What else could they cram in for the R1? Well, they'd have me at QP AF!!!


----------



## exige24 (Jun 29, 2021)

Chig said:


> Well Canon obviously think this is the case which is why this professional sports camera has only 30mp and it's capable of 30fps rather than only 20fps like the R5 and it's no accident that they're the number one camera company selling more cameras than Sony and Nikon combined .
> Engineering is full of compromises and to make a camera class leading in terms of speed lower resolution helps
> To make a super high resolution camera then lower speeds help.
> Technology has improved but physics hasn't : smaller files can be processed faster than larger files .
> Try using a medium format camera for high speed action




It's strange. Your point would be SPOT on if we lived in a universe where the A1 wasn't released 3 months ago. Unfortunately for you, this is not the universe we currently reside in and your "point" reads like you lived 2015....... 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020 blew right by you and you wound up in 2021.


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## exige24 (Jun 29, 2021)

Diltiazem said:


> I think for the vast majority, 30 MP will be enough. And there is "Super Resolution" from Adobe and similar from others to increase resolution if needed. This kind of computational image processing will only get better and will make high-resolution cameras mostly unnecessary.



Except that same technology can just as well apply to and make better a 50 mp image as it can a 30. Point not taken.


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## exige24 (Jun 29, 2021)

Danglin52 said:


> I don’t really care either way, BUT the reality is that every process requires compute cycles and power resulting in a series of trade offs. While you are correct we have new technology it does not provide unlimited capabilities. A Lot of that new compute power has been absorbed by things like AF, AI, iBIS, etc, etc. You are looking at a component because you place value on resolution and forgetting these are complex system EFFECTIVELY delivering capabilities we only dreamed about 10 years back. It is also clear you may not understand market segmentation. People will vote with their dollars when the product is released and you have 1 (2?) votes like other buyers.
> 
> BTW - If the specs are accurate, I will pre-order the R3 on announcement. My personal threshold for a quick decision was 30mp or more sensor to allow some crop space. I can always cancel if I don’t like the full details and reviews. I decided not to buy the 1dx III because live view shooting provided a hint of what was next in mirrorless. i sold my 1dx II and made the full jump to R5 / RF Lenses. I also made that trade off from f2.8 to f4 glass to save size/weight. I held off buying a second body R waiting on the R1. Sounds like the R3 will work for now. I also love the 1 series type form factors. While grips help, a 1 series has a different feel.




Like I told the other guy, your point would be well taken before the A1 came out 3-4 months ago. Now it just reads like you're pretending it doesn't exist. News for you. It does. It's real. people actually already use it and it performs all these tasks quite handily.

BTW - It will be a cold day in hell or me turning 90 years old before I give up light capturing ability because I can feel an extra pound on my shoulder. What can I say? I like taking pictures. Lol Different strokes, I guess, eh?


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## scottburgess (Jun 29, 2021)

jam05 said:


> SDexpress continuous write speed will probably be as fast as any of your CFexpress cards or when Xsfering to a PC. Canon is on the memory card committee. They are fully aware of what will be happening in the memory card arena. There is only 4 manufacturer cards compatible and tested with Canon's CFexpress bus for high resolution video that wont give video recording flags. Basically a crap shoot. And they arent sold locally at Best Buy either
> And lets not even debate the card reader crap. Companies struggling to sell cameras and then consumers have to search for card readers.
> 
> 
> ...


While the SD Express 8.0 standard is just a bit slower (just under 4GB/s) than the current CF Express hardware in the field, that standard was only finalized in May; the 7.0 standard for which new hardware is just coming out is 1/4 that speed. Canon probably can't yet access sufficient hardware for 7.0 if they wanted to.

Further, no one is talking SD Express on this camera, just SD. And on previous amateur/pro transitional cameras, Canon dumbed SD down with earlier-generation SD controllers. Basically a nod to people who pick up a used body and sabotage themselves by buying only crappy off-brand SD media--the same folks who visit forums and complain their camera isn't fast enough, and it wrecks their cards, and they bought a card reader but that didn't work well either, and they want Canon to make a better camera with features beyond the current technology but sell it new for $17, and... ::whining continues as I walk away::

Multiple cards of the same brand, type, and capacity are easier to manage with multiple bodies, and dual write is faster because they share the controller (probably slightly less heat generation too). I currently don't give a crap about card readers: I'll download while I eat dinner anyway and a high-end camera connects directly to a network (as this one does via Wifi 5G) or to a computer, or both. I don't give a crap about shitty off-brand cards of any type, and buy from the few reliable manufacturers who test their hardware prior to shipping. I'm not going to risk a shoot for the sake of a few pennies. I also am not going to overpay by driving to a Best Buy: Adorama prices lower, buys their cards directly from the manufacturers instead of from Sticky Louie in an alley, supports professionals, and ships free to my door.

If Canon eventually put ultra-fast dual SD Express 8.0 in, that might be fine too. I don't see that possibility very soon as it is years until that hardware is delivered, and because Canon is a heavy promoter of CF Express. In the meantime, I would rather see a camera designed for the amateur/pro transitional market (like the Canon R3) outfitted with hardware reflecting its target market, namely, dual CF Express slots.


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## David - Sydney (Jun 29, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> That might change with the Ninja V+.


My understanding of the Ninja V+ is that it wasn't very clear what could be recorded externally. The bandwith for 8k raw is too much for the HDMI 2.0 port. Unless Canon somehow managed to include a HDMI 2.1 port before the rest of the world (including PS5 etc). I think that they would have promoted future capabilities at the time if this was true or stated that there would be upgrades available at a future date.

8k IPB light is a different story though which can be recorded internally at 10 bit on a V60 SD card similar to 4k60 IPB (non light)

Canon didn't provide a lower bit rate option for 4K120 so it remains 1880Mb/s and highly unlikely that the Ninja V+ can record... but hey, it would be great if it did!


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## Danglin52 (Jun 29, 2021)

exige24 said:


> Like I told the other guy, your point would be well taken before the A1 came out 3-4 months ago. Now it just reads like you're pretending it doesn't exist. News for you. It does. It's real. people actually already use it and it performs all these tasks quite handily.
> 
> BTW - It will be a cold day in hell or me turning 90 years old before I give up light capturing ability because I can feel an extra pound on my shoulder. What can I say? I like taking pictures. Lol Different strokes, I guess, eh?


I think we need to see both cameras side by side to determine plus / minus between the two systems. I would like to know if the R3 gave up a higher res sensor to achieve better overall capabilities at all settings in AF, high speed shooting, ISO performance, etc. For me, it is about the overall system vs one component. I have 40x60 prints from cropped 20mp 1dxII files that people seem to like. Maybe it’s just the subject. If the A1 can deliver equal or superior performance across all major functions without oddball limitations, your comment has merit. I definitely prefer the 1d/R3 body style over the A1 even if you add a grip. The other question you might ask - is the R3 competing with the A1, A9II or both? Canon has stated the R1 will be their flagship camera. The reviews and comparison in real life shooting should be interesting.

As you said about lenses, different strokes. I do this for fun and am fortunate my career paid for my hobby. I have been the full route with multiple iterations of the f2.8 trinity and big whites. I even had the original EF 600mm f4 L IS @14 lbs. Some times it is nice to move fast & light. Drop me a note when you hit 90 and let me know how it is working for you.I

Update:
Dpreview had a lot of good things to say about the A1, but here are a few of those trade offs I mentioned above. There may be other restriction.

Rear screen a bit small, low-res against similarly priced competitors
_30fps bursts only available in JPEG/HEIF/lossy compressed Raw_
_30fps bursts are lens-dependent_
High-res shot modes require desktop software to combine images; no motion correction yet available
_EVF drops in resolution during C-AF, or if you choose high FPS modes (probably still great resolution)_
_Users must manually select between human, animal or birds for Eye AF_
_Battery life is just okay compared to other flagships_
We will see if R3 has similar restrictions during high performance.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 29, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> My understanding of the Ninja V+ is that it wasn't very clear what could be recorded externally. The bandwith for 8k raw is too much for the HDMI 2.0 port. Unless Canon somehow managed to include a HDMI 2.1 port before the rest of the world (including PS5 etc). I think that they would have promoted future capabilities at the time if this was true or stated that there would be upgrades available at a future date.
> 
> 8k IPB light is a different story though which can be recorded internally at 10 bit on a V60 SD card similar to 4k60 IPB (non light)
> 
> Canon didn't provide a lower bit rate option for 4K120 so it remains 1880Mb/s and highly unlikely that the Ninja V+ can record... but hey, it would be great if it did!


Atomos clearly stated 8K ProRes RAW from the R5.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 29, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> I've only wanted to have raw files and so it never occurred to me to consider a jpg as a backup


I really can't see managing 30 FPS worth of RAW files.
For those who can, I guess this camera could be a problem.
I work with RAW files exclusively when I am shooting fewer pictures but when that is the case the slower speed of SD is not a problem.


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## David - Sydney (Jun 29, 2021)

Copland said:


> Normally Dual Card Slot (without "s") means: there is one slot, and both card types can be used, but only one or the other.
> The Sony A1 for example has two Dual Card Slots.


The A1 dual card slots are arranged inline rather than stacked together like the R5. The height dimensions between CFe A and B are ~2mm different
CFe A 20 x 28 x 2.8mm
CFe B 38.5 x 29.8 x 3.8mm
Arranging 2 CFe B cards inline within the R5's height with the ejection button as is would be difficult. Adding the SD card option would take a lot of space. Of course you need 4 controllers as well.


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## David - Sydney (Jun 29, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Atomos clearly stated 8K ProRes RAW from the R5.


it will be great to see how it works!


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## David - Sydney (Jun 29, 2021)

PureClassA said:


> This thing is going to be a monster. I can't even imagine what else they would cram into the R1 later on. Higher MP sensor that does 8K? And Besides that?


- Global shutter with flash sync at fast speed on eshutter... maybe without the need for a mechanical shutter
- Quad AF
- ~20mp on-the fly over sampled (no lossy compression/cRAW/S-RAW) at full 30fps unlimited buffer
- Unlimited 8k cinema raw lite internal recording to CFe card capacity
- No line skipping/pixel binning 4k/6k modes ie oversampled from full sensor width
- No 29:59 recording limit
- Pixel shift high res stills
- 9+ megadot EFV with no blackout and fast refresh rates (at least 120fps). >0.5" in size
- Full sized HDMI 2.1 port (48G) or thunderbolt 3 USB-C or both
- Mini XLR audio option
- Ability to turn off IBIS and leave OIS on


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## David - Sydney (Jun 29, 2021)

amorse said:


> Only Canon knows it's intent, but I think there are a few ways to look at that potential benefit to Canon by pushing people to switch. For instance, I suspect a lot of mirrorless buyers will end up re-buying lenses they already own in EF, resulting in greater lens sales than otherwise anticipated. Secondly, it may be a long term approach to maintaining customers. I think performing the autofocus on the sensor directly holds some clear opportunities and if Canon were to ignore mirrorless entirely, some people may become more likely to change brands in order to access those opportunities in the long run.
> 
> With respect to Canon only offering mirrorless to those who didn't want a DSLR, I'm not sure where Canon sees DSLRs in their future, but they have certainly put the vast majority of their effort into RF and relatively little into EF over the last while. They may indeed be pushing people to switch so they can move away from (or drastically reduce) DSLR production/development and there are certainly signs pointing that way. The last two DSLRs they released seem to be the 1DXIII and 850D in January and February of 2020, and plenty of camera lines appear to be either discontinued, behind on past release schedules, or nearing their typical renewal dates without any rumours of EF replacement. Further, the last EF lens releases were the 70-200 f/2.8 III and the 70-200 f/4 IS USM II in 2018; and several EF lenses have been rapidly discontinued, including one of the new EF 70-200's. None of that gives me a ton of confidence that a new batch of high-end DSLRs are coming from Canon. But hey, those sticking with DSLRs may yet be rewarded with extra cheap EF deals on the used market for a while so it's not all bad news!


Canon have said that they will continue to make DLSRs as long as people still want to buy them.
They are clearly filling out the RF product line with bodies and lenses. That is normal in a new market segment. 1 year without a new EF camera body is not that unusual given the current global circumstances.
Canon is offering a choice and people are migrating... and R5/6 sales are greater than Canon anticipated not to mention shortages for some RF lenses. They aren't pushing anyone anywhere. 
In the main, RF lenses have additional benefits over their EF counterparts and in many cases there is no direct comparison.
EF lenses mostly work better on R mount bodies and you have the option of adapter CPL/ND filters as well.
We have never had so much choice


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## exige24 (Jun 29, 2021)

Danglin52 said:


> I think we need to see both cameras side by side to determine plus / minus between the two systems. I would like to know if the R3 gave up a higher res sensor to achieve better overall capabilities at all settings in AF, high speed shooting, ISO performance, etc. For me, it is about the overall system vs one component. I have 40x60 prints from cropped 20mp 1dxII files that people seem to like. Maybe it’s just the subject. If the A1 can deliver equal or superior performance across all major functions without oddball limitations, your comment has merit. I definitely prefer the 1d/R3 body style over the A1 even if you add a grip. The other question you might ask - is the R3 competing with the A1, A9II or both? Canon has stated the R1 will be their flagship camera. The reviews and comparison in real life shooting should be interesting.
> 
> As you said about lenses, different strokes. I do this for fun and am fortunate my career paid for my hobby. I have been the full route with multiple iterations of the f2.8 trinity and big whites. I even had the original EF 600mm f4 L IS @14 lbs. Some times it is nice to move fast & light. Drop me a note when you hit 90 and let me know how it is working for you.I
> 
> ...



You're also forgetting about 8k without overheating. These are some major things. They are not, "But it's smaller and lighter and that's what I prefer!" characteristics. Not saying it's perfect at all these things or the best iterations of them, but it does have them and they're not broken. They are performed at a high level, albeit maybe not all at class leading levels. Regardless, as far as I'm concerned it is ALWAYS better to have the ability to do something even if I don't always use that capability then it is to remove it completely for low tier priorities, like weight or cost in top of the line products. Obviously within reason. The camera can't weight 20 lbs and cost $20000. 

BTW Super telephotos are the only class of lens where the weight argument hold any legitimate merit. The difference between 14 and 8 pounds is not insignificant. The difference between 250g and 400g is and always will be. Lol


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 29, 2021)

exige24 said:


> You're also forgetting about 8k without overheating


A1 absolutely overheats.
It is nothing as bad as the R5 but even Sony says it will overheat.


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## Danglin52 (Jun 29, 2021)

exige24 said:


> You're also forgetting about 8k without overheating. These are some major things. They are not, "But it's smaller and lighter and that's what I prefer!" characteristics. Not saying it's perfect at all these things or the best iterations of them, but it does have them and they're not broken. They are performed at a high level, albeit maybe not all at class leading levels. Regardless, as far as I'm concerned it is ALWAYS better to have the ability to do something even if I don't always use that capability then it is to remove it completely for low tier priorities, like weight or cost in top of the line products. Obviously within reason. The camera can't weight 20 lbs and cost $20000.
> 
> BTW Super telephotos are the only class of lens where the weight argument hold any legitimate merit. The difference between 14 and 8 pounds is not insignificant. The difference between 250g and 400g is and always will be. Lol


Not a big video guy, but hopefully the use of the 1d body style will provide heat management benefits for the R3. So far, the rumors are not touting 8k for the R3.

As to the view on weight, every ounce counts when putting a camera pack on an aggressive size / weight loss program. My standard pack fully loaded for Africa was a Gura Gura 32L that weighted in at 36lbs. "Mr Camera Bag" required his own seat on several camp flights due to weight limitations. The camera pack for my planned 2022 Africa trip is a Mindshift 26L @ roughly 21 lbs fully loaded. While 8 lbs of that reduction was related to eliminating the 200-400 f4 L IS w1.4x TC , it took fine tuning my needs / approach to eliminate an additional 7 lbs. The key drivers in eliminating the reaming weight included moving to mirrorless bodies (1 w/grip, 1 without), f4 lenses vs f2.8, lighter telephoto, lighter bag, etc. Did I trade off some capabilities, absolutely. Do I think they will make a critical difference, No. I am a very healthy 69 and didn't really have an issue with the heavier bag, but it is nice to have a smaller, lighter package to cart around. It may also save me money on future Africa trips so I don't have to buy a seat for "Mr Camera Bag". Funny fact, that was actually the name they used on the ticket.

Note: I did try the RF 800 DO f11, but I couldn't compromise that much. IQ wasn't bad, but I couldn't live with he f11. 

As we have both said, different strokes.


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## exige24 (Jun 29, 2021)

Danglin52 said:


> Not a big video guy, but hopefully the use of the 1d body style will provide heat management benefits for the R3. So far, the rumors are not touting 8k for the R3.
> 
> As to the view on weight, every ounce counts when putting a camera pack on an aggressive size / weight loss program. My standard pack fully loaded for Africa was a Gura Gura 32L that weighted in at 36lbs. "Mr Camera Bag" required his own seat on several camp flights due to weight limitations. The camera pack for my planned 2022 Africa trip is a Mindshift 26L @ roughly 21 lbs fully loaded. While 8 lbs of that reduction was related to eliminating the 200-400 f4 L IS w1.4x TC , it took fine tuning my needs / approach to eliminate an additional 7 lbs. The key drivers in eliminating the reaming weight included moving to mirrorless bodies (1 w/grip, 1 without), f4 lenses vs f2.8, lighter telephoto, lighter bag, etc. Did I trade off some capabilities, absolutely. Do I think they will make a critical difference, No. I am a very healthy 69 and didn't really have an issue with the heavier bag, but it is nice to have a smaller, lighter package you don't have to cart around. It may also save me money on future Africa trips so I don't have to buy a seat for "Mr Camera Bag". Funny fact, that was actually the name they used on the ticket.
> 
> ...



Well said. I absolutely love the 800. It is specialized, but with good light, that reach and portability is so unique and just can't be beat.


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## FrenchFry (Jun 30, 2021)

Danglin52 said:


> Not a big video guy, but hopefully the use of the 1d body style will provide heat management benefits for the R3. So far, the rumors are not touting 8k for the R3.
> 
> As to the view on weight, every ounce counts when putting a camera pack on an aggressive size / weight loss program. My standard pack fully loaded for Africa was a Gura Gura 32L that weighted in at 36lbs. "Mr Camera Bag" required his own seat on several camp flights due to weight limitations. The camera pack for my planned 2022 Africa trip is a Mindshift 26L @ roughly 21 lbs fully loaded. While 8 lbs of that reduction was related to eliminating the 200-400 f4 L IS w1.4x TC , it took fine tuning my needs / approach to eliminate an additional 7 lbs. The key drivers in eliminating the reaming weight included moving to mirrorless bodies (1 w/grip, 1 without), f4 lenses vs f2.8, lighter telephoto, lighter bag, etc. Did I trade off some capabilities, absolutely. Do I think they will make a critical difference, No. I am a very healthy 69 and didn't really have an issue with the heavier bag, but it is nice to have a smaller, lighter package you don't have to cart around. It may also save me money on future Africa trips so I don't have to buy a seat for "Mr Camera Bag". Funny fact, that was actually the name they used on the ticket.
> 
> ...


I visited the website in your signature, and you have beautiful photos! 

If you don't mind, I would really appreciate hearing more about what you brought in the 36lbs bag vs. what you are planning to bring in the 21lbs bag. Really curious to see where the weight savings are coming from and which lenses don't make the cut for your second round. I'm typically a "bring all of the gear I own" type of person when I travel, but with my lens collection growing and international weight restrictions so... restrictive... I will probably wind up making some tough choices on which equipment to leave behind on my next trips. 
It would be great to hear about your thought process. 

Thanks!


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## Danglin52 (Jun 30, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> I visited the website in your signature, and you have beautiful photos!
> 
> If you don't mind, I would really appreciate hearing more about what you brought in the 36lbs bag vs. what you are planning to bring in the 21lbs bag. Really curious to see where the weight savings are coming from and which lenses don't make the cut for your second round. I'm typically a "bring all of the gear I own" type of person when I travel, but with my lens collection growing and international weight restrictions so... restrictive... I will probably wind up making some tough choices on which equipment to leave behind on my next trips.
> It would be great to hear about your thought process.
> ...






Thank you for the nice comment on the photos. Hope this helps. 

I did a presentation for a local photo club and this is the image I included to show my Africa setup. Half of the weight reduction came from eliminating the 200-400 (8lbs). IT was my favorite wildlife lens and one of the most versatile lenses on the planet when you consider it can be a 200-400 f4, 200-560 f5.6 w/flip of a switch, 400-800mm f8 with the 2x extnder and a 560-1120 with 1.4 engaged + the 2x (don't recommend unless you are desperate). As I looked at the new kit, I wanted to maintain as much of comparable body setup and the 24-800mm range with decent IQ even if I had to sacrifice some light sensitivity & boekah. In the end, I am at 24-700mm and gave up some light on various lenses. I am hoping that Canon will deliver some type of 500mm or 600mm f4 DO at some point and I will jump back into the big whites. I can rent if I have a trip where I want optimal IQ and not limited by weight restriction. I sold all my EF bodies and gear except the extenders. I would byy a RF 200-400/500 f4 in a heartbeat if they give it the EF III series weight loss program and reduce the weight to 6.5 lbs.

Here are the basic Changes (see picture below where I started:

Move to lighter bodies:
- 1dx II to R5 + grip (will be replaced by the R3 if specs hold)
- 1dx II battery charger - large and bulky, will probably have to add back with
- 5dIV to R5 Backup currently rented as needed, existing R5 will be the backup. 
Move to lighter lenses
- EF 200-400 f4 to RF 100-500
- EF 100-400 Eliminated since I decided it was redundant. Can always rent a BW or other lens.
- EF 24-70 f2.8 L II to RF 24-105 f4 L IS
- EF 70-200 f2.8 L IS II to RF 70-200 f4 L IS (was not in the bag above)
- EF 1.4x III & 2x III TC to RF 1.4x TC
Eliminated items
- Binocs, 8x monocular adequate since I only have vision in one eye.
- Macro tubes
- Other junk that wasn't needed.
- R batteries and chargers are lighter.
- Mindshift 26L is lighter than the Gura Gear 32L

To summarize, the new bag will include:
R3 & R5 without the grip
RF 24-105 f4 L IS
RF 70-200 f4 L IS (which may be left at home for some other Telephoto or to save weight)
RF 100-500 f4.5-7.1 L IS*
RF 1.4x TC
RF-EF adaptor for emergencies, EF lenses are easier to find.

*If Canon releases a new 200-400/500 at 6-6.5lbs, the 100-500 will be left at home.


Note: I can't remember if some of the weight included the laptop, but I don't think it did. .


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## AlanF (Jun 30, 2021)

Danglin52 said:


> View attachment 198696
> 
> 
> Thank you for the nice comment on the photos. Hope this helps.
> ...


Your new pack is basically what I settled on for our last few nature photo safari/holiday trips abroad. I always take a back-up of everything, which is helped because my wife joins in. Last precovid trips had us dropping the prime and taking two 100-400mm IIs, 2x 1.4xTCs, 5DIV, 5DSR, 2 chargers, 24-105, Olympus TG5, etc. When we come out of covid, it will be the R5, 100-500mm, RF 2x, which is my everyday gear. Then, for my wife there may be a change. She likes the 5DSR but for safer cross-compatibility in case both the 5DSR and the 100-500mm fail, I might get an R6 for her - a lightweight 70-400mm would clinch the second R series. OK, we don't get the quality of say a 600mm f/4 III but everything goes into hand luggage for even flights limited to 7kg, we can go on group trips in small vehicles without inconveniencing the others, hike with them, and have superb flexibility. Also, we take 8x binoculars, Swarovski 8x30 or 8x32 are very light and as bright as many 8x42.


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## Skyscraperfan (Jun 30, 2021)

Yesterday some videos popped up at Youtube that claim to show actual photos taken by the R3 and the Nikon Zfc, I am sure they must be spam and should be reported to Youtube. How could those sites with hardly any followers get their hands on cameras that are not on sale yet?


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 30, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> Yesterday some videos popped up at Youtube that claim to show actual photos taken by the R3 and the Nikon Zfc, I am sure they must be spam and should be reported to Youtube. How could those sites with hardly any followers get their hands on cameras that are not on sale yet?


That happens with every camera.
They show test footage of two cameras side by side and claim they are from the most anticipated cameras.
The Zfc is possible since there is plenty of footage that Nikon is just not allowing people to show but if they do not show themselves with the camera then it is safe to say they don't have it.


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## FrenchFry (Jun 30, 2021)

Danglin52 said:


> View attachment 198696
> 
> 
> Thank you for the nice comment on the photos. Hope this helps.
> ...


Wow, thank you so much for taking the time to Post this! This was very detailed and helpful, and I am sure will benefit lots of people considering what gear to bring on future safaris!


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## Danglin52 (Jun 30, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> Wow, thank you so much for taking the time to Post this! This was very detailed and helpful, and I am sure will benefit lots of people considering what gear to bring on future safaris!


Here is a photo of the new kit in a Mindshift 18L backpack (vs the 26L I would take to Africa). This is most of the gear mentioned in the previous post except for the second body (R3) which is represented by the R5 grip. You can either carry the gear with lens attached and ready to shoot or detached and protected by padded inserts. I usually detach all of my lenses for "travel mode". The R5 is on it's side attached to the RF 70-200 f4 L IS. When not attached, the 70-200 fits upright in the bag to save more space. One thing I did not mention was the Jupio dual charger for for LP-E6NH batteries (between the two lenses) - very flexible and works great in a small footprint. Main Gear - R5, R5 grip pretending to be the R3, RF 24-105 f4 L IS, RF 70-200 f4 L IS, RF 100-500 f4.5-7.1 L IS, RF 1.4x TC, Leica 8x monocular, cards, batteries & charger - all in an 18L bag. I would definitely take the bigger bag for Africa just to have some extra room an gear. The 18L & 26L both have iPad/laptop holders in the front pockets. Nice change over the Gura Gear 32L. Not always possible, but I try to carry enough memory cards to avoid deleting images in the field.

I am keeping the GG 32L until I make sure they don't deliver a RF 200-500 f4 / 5.6 that changes my gear plans. Hopefully at 6.5 lbs vs. the EF 200-400 & 8 lbs.

Hope this helps.


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## FrenchFry (Jun 30, 2021)

Danglin52 said:


> Here is a photo of the new kit in a Mindshift 18L backpack (vs the 26L I would take to Africa). This is most of the gear mentioned in the previous post except for the second body (R3) which is represented by the R5 grip. You can either carry the gear with lens attached and ready to shoot or detached and protected by padded inserts. I usually detach all of my lenses for "travel mode". The R5 is on it's side attached to the RF 70-200 f4 L IS. When not attached, the 70-200 fits upright in the bag to save more space. One thing I did not mention was the Jupio dual charger for for LP-E6NH batteries (between the two lenses) - very flexible and works great in a small footprint. Main Gear - R5, R5 grip pretending to be the R3, RF 24-105 f4 L IS, RF 70-200 f4 L IS, RF 100-500 f4.5-7.1 L IS, RF 1.4x TC, Zeis 8x monocular, cards, batteries & charger - all in an 18L bag. I would definitely take the bigger bag for Africa just to have some extra room an gear. The 18L & 26L both have iPad/laptop holders in the front pockets. Nice change over the Gura Gear 32L. Not always possible, but I try to carry enough memory cards to avoid deleting images in the field.
> 
> Using the 26L would let me leave the 70-200 at home and maybe include some higher quality telephoto. I am keeping the GG 32L until I make sure they don't deliver a RF 200-500 f4 / 5.6 that changes my gear plans. Hopefully at 6.5 lbs ver the EF 200-400 & 8 lbs.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Yes, extremely helpful and much appreciated! I used to bring lots of SD cards on trips, and probably still will, but with CFExpress that becomes really expensive! I picked up a SanDisk Extreme PRO V2 2TB external SSD discounted to about $225 for Prime Day, which is about the same price as a 128GB CFExpress!

I really hope that rumored 200-500mm lens comes to be, especially if we can shave off several pounds!


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## peters (Jul 2, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> 4k120 is great but does hit overheating limits quickly. That said, with 128GB cards, it only fits ~5 minutes of record time. More than enough for my requirements though.
> In hot/summer indoor action shooting (>35C) over a couple of hours with continuous burst, my R5 did show the overheating lamp but of course the R5 didn't have any still shooting issues.
> 
> It sounds like you need an external recorder for your 4k60 and remove the cards to get longer record times. Can't use 4k120 externally though and Canon didn't include a IPB light option in the latest firmware :-(


Jeah, you are completely right. You have to use an external recorder to get 4k60 and you cant record internal. Meaning you have no backup at all and you have to rely on the external recorder - which got way more breaking points (wrong settings, second battery, cable...). Its just less reliable than internal recording. This makes the combination in my opinion for high quality event documentation (like weddings) where 4k60 is quite important pretty much useless. I personaly would not rely on that combination. My atomos works fine, but without a backup and with so much room for mistakes, I would not rely on it on a wedding. 
And the only problem is the overheat. Its otherwise an excellent camera with great AF and options.


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## Chig (Jul 11, 2021)

djack41 said:


> Bit let down. The Sony A1 is 50 MP and just as fast. I hope the AF really performs.


Not really as fast as it's 30fps is only compressed RAW , the A1 can only shoot 20fps RAW same as the R5


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## Danglin52 (Jul 11, 2021)

Chig said:


> Not really as fast as it's 30fps is only compressed RAW , the A1 can only shoot 20fps RAW same as the R5


We will have to see the final specs, but I don't thing there will be many trade offs in the stills side of the camera. I don't know on the vide side, but I think whatever they deliver as the final spec will be robust without too many limitations. Canon took some lumps over the R5 and I think this they want a repeat.


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## djack41 (Jul 11, 2021)

Chig said:


> Not really as fast as it's 30fps is only compressed RAW , the A1 can only shoot 20fps RAW same as the R5


The R5 reduces image quality when shooting at 20FPS by reducing the RAW files to only 12 bit.


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