# 10 bit graphics card ??



## hovland (Jan 21, 2015)

Do 10-bit monitors realy require a Quadro/Firepro card?

Can’t find any spec on a normal Radeon/GeForce card that says it support 10-bit colors.


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## RLPhoto (Jan 21, 2015)

Yes because you'll need display port for 10 bit and they restrict 10 bit to the pro cards. However there is a hack to trick some Nvidia cards into believing they are quadro cards and getting them to work in 10 bit mode. It's not for the faint of heart.


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## Dylan777 (Jan 21, 2015)

RLPhoto said:


> Yes because you'll need display port for 10 bit and they restrict 10 bit to the pro cards. However there is a hack to trick some Nvidia cards into believing they are quadro cards and getting them to work in 10 bit mode. It's not for the faint of heart.



+1

Learned that when I upgraded my PC few months back. LOVE my new PC


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## Maui5150 (Jan 21, 2015)

hovland said:


> Do 10-bit monitors realy require a Quadro/Firepro card?
> 
> Can’t find any spec on a normal Radeon/GeForce card that says it support 10-bit colors.



Yes, they do. You can find some of the lower end used FirePro cards for around $200 or so. 

There is also a gradient test file you can use. I tested out mine before swapping cards and sure enough, with old onboard graphics, saw banding, through in the FirePro and a nice smooth transition all the way down.


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## Enthusiast (Jan 21, 2015)

Hi 
if you are not playing games with your PC, the small Fire Pro cards are enough for Photoshop and LR. If you look at Ebay, they are very often removed from brand new servers and sold as used removed.
I paid for my Fire pro 4800 40 Euro or so two years ago.

And what is more important, if you do a proper raw process, you can see a little difference, but for the workflow it´s much more important to have a proper calibration tool and a good screen than 10bit graphic card.

Any monitor which is speced as 1 billion colors is supporting 10bit. But be careful, some display like several models from Dell just have internal 10bit support and use a 10bit look up table for color correction but not receiving 10bit color.


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## mackguyver (Jan 21, 2015)

You need an OS that supports it (Windows 7 or higher - not sure if Macs support it yet), PhotoShop CS5 or higher (and CS5 has issues, from my experience), a 10-bit display driver, 10-bit graphics card (Quadro of FirePro), a compatible Displayport cable, and a 10-bit monitor.

In my experience, it's not as big of a thing as you might think. It's a lot of money for very little in the way of improvement, unless you do a lot of B&W work or 3D modelling where the 8 vs. 10-bit shading is night & day different.

My current set up is the Nvidia Quadro K4000 card, Performance Driver, Windows 8.1, PhotoShop CC 2014.2, Dell U3014 monitor connected via a Displayport cable purchased at monocable.com.


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## hovland (Jan 21, 2015)

Thanks for comments.
It seems that the solution is a Firepro or Quadro card. 
I plan to by a 4k IPS monitor with 10– bit. So even if it’s only in Photoshop, I still want a card that can match the monitor. And hopefully the support for 10 bit will increase in the future.
I hoped that I could use a normal Radeon/Geforce card, due to cost/performance.


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## mackguyver (Jan 21, 2015)

hovland said:


> Thanks for comments.
> It seems that the solution is a Firepro or Quadro card.
> I plan to by a 4k IPS monitor with 10– bit. So even if it’s only in Photoshop, I still want a card that can match the monitor. And hopefully the support for 10 bit will increase in the future.
> I hoped that I could use a normal Radeon/Geforce card, due to cost/performance.


There is other software the supports it, but it's mostly 3D modelling and special effects stuff. Also, keep in mind that a mid-grade pro card is equal to a cheap gamer card. I found that out the hard way. The Quadro K4000 (or the recently announced upgrade model) or FirePro equivalent is the lowest I would go if you want decent performance.


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## hovland (Jan 23, 2015)

Hi

Got this replay from Asus when I asked they about a suitable 10 bits card for their PB279Q

_
Hi

Are you looking for a card that is natively 10 bit? then it is the more expensive nvidia quaddro or ati firepro vards that are required.

most reugular high end cards emulate 10bit just fine but it is not "real" 10bit colour.

Best Regards,
ASUS Nordic
Technical Support Department_

So then it’s a pro card for me.


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## PavelR (Jan 23, 2015)

dilbert said:


> You do know that there is only *1* 10bit image editing tool, don't you?
> 
> And that it is Photoshop?



You are wrong:

http://www.zoner.com/__download/press/zoner-PR_2010_08_10bit.pdf


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## ScottyP (Jan 23, 2015)

RLPhoto said:


> Yes because you'll need display port for 10 bit and they restrict 10 bit to the pro cards. However there is a hack to trick some Nvidia cards into believing they are quadro cards and getting them to work in 10 bit mode. It's not for the faint of heart.



I may be not reading this right. My GeForce GTX 770 does have display port. But I thought it cannot do 10 bit color from what I've read. Is your post saying it can because it has display port?


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## tolusina (Jan 23, 2015)

ScottyP said:


> .... Is your post saying it can because it has display port?.......


Can't say about discrete cards.

Here's what I went through.
Built a beast of a PC with onboard graphics and DisplayPort, a 24" NEC wide gamut monitor with Spectraview thinking I was building close to state of the art including 10 bit support.

Thanks to some tip or another from RustyTheGeek (thanks a bunch Rusty, cost me more moneyz  ), I started digging, found NEC has an app for that, tests the system for 10 bit capability, system failed that test.
I added a PNY Quadro 620, system now passes NEC's test app.

Can't say I've noticed any difference, frankly haven't pushed to test further. 
All I've really gotten so far is some peace of mind sort of satisfaction, another entry on my build/brag list, slightly longer (but unobjectionable) boot times as yet more stuff loads.


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## mackguyver (Jan 23, 2015)

hovland said:


> Hi
> 
> Got this replay from Asus when I asked they about a suitable 10 bits card for their PB279Q
> 
> ...


ASUS is saying that because 8-bit cards use dithering to smooth transitions. Interestingly enough, so do camera sensors . It's called continuous tone in photo language and it's why a 10-bit card won't make a night & day difference for general photo editing. A nice monitor calibration tool (colorimeter or spectophotometer like, XRite i1, Spyder, etc.) is a much better investment, should you lack one already.



ScottyP said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Yes because you'll need display port for 10 bit and they restrict 10 bit to the pro cards. However there is a hack to trick some Nvidia cards into believing they are quadro cards and getting them to work in 10 bit mode. It's not for the faint of heart.
> ...


Displayport supports 10-bit signals, but the card's hardware (and more importantly) driver have to support it as well. Nvidia and AMD lock it out of consumer cards, which is really annoying. It's for money, and no other reason whatsoever.



tolusina said:


> Thanks to some tip or another from RustyTheGeek (thanks a bunch Rusty, cost me more moneyz  ), I started digging, found NEC has an app for that, tests the system for 10 bit capability, system failed that test.
> I added a PNY Quadro 620, system now passes NEC's test app.
> 
> Can't say I've noticed any difference, frankly haven't pushed to test further.
> All I've really gotten so far is some peace of mind sort of satisfaction, another entry on my build/brag list, slightly longer (but unobjectionable) boot times as yet more stuff loads.


The NEC app is a good test because you can see the dithering in the 8-bit windows vs. the smooth shading in the 10-bit windows. It should be pretty obvious. If it's not, you might not have something set up correctly. Make sure you have the latest Quadro ODE or Performance driver installed.

Also, the difference in PS is very minor. The most noticeable thing for me has been the additional colors. Going from 16.8 million to over a billion colors doesn't matter in itself (our eyes can only differentiate between around 10m colors), but for some reason, the white balance in my photos has to be just right or things just don't look right. I might just be going a little crazy after spending so much money to get 10-bit color, however


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## tolusina (Jan 23, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> ...The NEC app is a good test because you can see the dithering in the 8-bit windows vs. the smooth shading in the 10-bit windows. It should be pretty obvious. If it's not, you might not have something set up correctly. Make sure you have the latest Quadro ODE or Performance driver installed.…..


Ok, now I feel dumber than before.
I'm not seeing where or how to check or change what driver is installed and in use.

When I go into Device Manager>Display adapters>NVIDIA Quadro K620>Driver>Driver Details I see a list of 51 files with non-descriptive file names, no apparent help for me there.

Right clicking the desktop to get to the NVIDIA Control Panel shows me a plethora of options I'm clueless about, I'm not seeing anything recognizable to me as an ODE or Performance driver.

Any helpful suggestions?


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## RLPhoto (Jan 23, 2015)

ScottyP said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Yes because you'll need display port for 10 bit and they restrict 10 bit to the pro cards. However there is a hack to trick some Nvidia cards into believing they are quadro cards and getting them to work in 10 bit mode. It's not for the faint of heart.
> ...



Nvidia limits the consumer cards from outputing 10-bit by both software and possibly hardware. Your card has a Display port but it won't display 10-bit color, however there is a hack that involves soldering the required components to trick the card into a quadro card, and installing quadro drivers, then getting 10-bit output.


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## mackguyver (Jan 23, 2015)

tolusina said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > ...The NEC app is a good test because you can see the dithering in the 8-bit windows vs. the smooth shading in the 10-bit windows. It should be pretty obvious. If it's not, you might not have something set up correctly. Make sure you have the latest Quadro ODE or Performance driver installed.…..
> ...


I'll have to check my machine at home - I'll see if I can help later today.


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## tolusina (Jan 23, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> ....I'll have to check my machine at home - I'll see if I can help later today......


Thanks in advance, I appreciate whatever effort you are willing to put forth.
Probably be tomorrow before I can proceed.


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## mackguyver (Jan 23, 2015)

tolusina said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > ....I'll have to check my machine at home - I'll see if I can help later today......
> ...


In the meantime, here's what I'm talking about (see below) - did you download the ODE or Performance version of the driver? If not, make sure it's installed. ODE is the super-stable release, while Performance is a little newer with optimizations for Adobe and other software (see the release notes for specifics) and don't worry about the other versions. I recommend Performance and you'll see the best results in PS and Premiere, etc. with it.


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## tolusina (Jan 24, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> ..... I recommend Performance and you'll see the best results in PS and Premiere, etc. with it...


Done. Thanks for spelling it out so clearly.
I installed the Performance per your recommendation, from what I could tell from file names, ODE and Performance are the same. I suppose I could have done the MD5 hash check thing but I didn't.

Back in the NEC app which, by the way won't even run if the system doesn't do 10 bit, I'm still seeing banding on the shape's faces while rotating, a bit of moire on the triangle edges as they rotate.
Oh well.


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## mackguyver (Jan 24, 2015)

tolusina, give this a shot. Go to PS and in Preferences, Performance, Advanced Settings (See screen shots) turn off 30-bit support. Download the attached ZIP file and open the Ramp.PSD file inside. See what it looks like. Now close the file, go back, re-enable 30-bit support, and open the file again. The transitions should now appear much smoother between the shades of gray.


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## tolusina (Jan 25, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> ...... Go to PS and in Preferences, Performance....


No such options in PSE. But that's ok because.....


mackguyver said:


> .........The transitions should now appear much smoother between the shades of gray.


Opened in LightRoom, the transitions are much smoother.

Somewhat disappointing exercise though, I've spent rather large getting my PC system up to grade, so little software supports that grade. 
Opened the ramp file in several programs here, only LightRoom displays it properly.


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## mackguyver (Jan 25, 2015)

I hate to tell you this, but LR doesn't support 10-bit, at least not yet. The only Photo software I'm aware of is PhotoShop CS5 & higher. Here's some more information I just found:

https://photographylife.com/what-is-30-bit-photography-workflow


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## hovland (Jan 26, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> There is other software the supports it, but it's mostly 3D modelling and special effects stuff. Also, keep in mind that a mid-grade pro card is equal to a cheap gamer card. I found that out the hard way. The Quadro K4000 (or the recently announced upgrade model) or FirePro equivalent is the lowest I would go if you want decent performance.


The future will hopefully bring on more software support. 



mackguyver said:


> ASUS is saying that because 8-bit cards use dithering to smooth transitions. Interestingly enough, so do camera sensors . It's called continuous tone in photo language and it's why a 10-bit card won't make a night & day difference for general photo editing. A nice monitor calibration tool (colorimeter or spectophotometer like, XRite i1, Spyder, etc.) is a much better investment, should you lack one already.



I do have an XRite i1, and it's very useful. But my current monitor is overdue for an replacement.




mackguyver said:


> Also, the difference in PS is very minor. The most noticeable thing for me has been the additional colors. Going from 16.8 million to over a billion colors doesn't matter in itself (our eyes can only differentiate between around 10m colors), but for some reason, the white balance in my photos has to be just right or things just don't look right. I might just be going a little crazy after spending so much money to get 10-bit color, however


I know you’re feeling about the need to have it just right. 
Thanks again for the enlightening mackguyver.


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## mackguyver (Jan 26, 2015)

hovland said:


> The future will hopefully bring on more software support.


I hope so, too. I have corresponded with a few of the other big imaging software companies that I have done some beta testing for in the past, and they seem open to supporting it in the future. I'm not sure what it takes on the code side to support it, but hopefully we'll see it in the next version of LR, in DxO, and CaptureOne among other packages.



hovland said:


> I know you’re feeling about the need to have it just right.
> Thanks again for the enlightening mackguyver.


  and no problem - I'm happy to help.


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## tolusina (Jan 26, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> I hate to tell you this, but LR doesn't support 10-bit, at least not yet. The only Photo software I'm aware of is PhotoShop CS5 & higher. Here's some more information I just found:
> 
> https://photographylife.com/what-is-30-bit-photography-workflow


You hate to tell, I hate to learn that even more. Oh carp.
Looks like time to step up and pay Adobe's monthly baksheesh. 
Looked at Zoner's website, some script crashed FireFox, um, if they can't even code a stable web presence well, makes me skeptical regarding their software package's code.


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## mackguyver (Jan 26, 2015)

tolusina said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > I hate to tell you this, but LR doesn't support 10-bit, at least not yet. The only Photo software I'm aware of is PhotoShop CS5 & higher. Here's some more information I just found:
> ...


Don't feel bad, that sums up my 30-bit journey as well - bought monitor, needed cable. Bought Displayport cable, realized that wasn't going to work with my GeForce card. Bought reasonable Quadro card, wasn't happy with performance - returned it. Spent way more than I wanted on higher end card, but PS CS5 support was lousy. Upgraded to CC...and in the end, I really don't know if it makes a whole of difference. I guess there are worse and far more expensive journeys to take in photography.


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## PavelR (Jan 26, 2015)

tolusina said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > I hate to tell you this, but LR doesn't support 10-bit, at least not yet. The only Photo software I'm aware of is PhotoShop CS5 & higher. Here's some more information I just found:
> ...


FYI: I use Zoner Photo Studio regularly and it is pretty stable. I can see difference of linked ramp.psd in it depending on 10-bit output enabled/disabled.


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## tolusina (Jan 27, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> .....Upgraded to CC.......


In LightRoom is the ability to soft proof for printing, does PS CC offer the same?



PavelR said:


> ..... I use Zoner Photo Studio regularly.....


In LightRoom is the ability to soft proof for printing, does Zoner Photo Studio offer the same?


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## mackguyver (Jan 27, 2015)

tolusina said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > .....Upgraded to CC.......
> ...


I have never heard of Zoner, so I can't speak for that, but yes, PS has everything LR has other than the ability to do catalogs and some of that kind of thing, but Bridge (which comes with PS) does quite a bit of that. PS also gives you native layer capabilities and a ton of things that LR lacks. And, using ACR, you can edit multiple photos at once and synchronize adjustments. It's not as elegant as LR, but is something that seems to be really misunderstood.


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## PavelR (Jan 27, 2015)

tolusina said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > .....Upgraded to CC.......
> ...


Manual of current version:
http://download1.zoner.com/binary/zps17help_en.pdf
says:
Shift+P Pre-print color preview (if color management is active and a printer profile has been
set)


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## LDS (Jan 27, 2015)

tolusina said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > .....Upgraded to CC.......
> ...



In older versions of PS it was under the View menu, "Proof Setup" and "Proof Colors", guess it's still there in CC too, although I don't know if it was moved.


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## PavelR (Jan 28, 2015)

http://www.giveawayoftheday.com/zoner-photo-studio-16-pro/


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