# A new EOS Rebel is coming this month, possibly an EOS Rebel T8i or entry level EOS M camera[CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 4, 2019)

> We were sent a strange rumor this week, one we figured was a typo. “Canon will announce the EOS Joey in August”. So I took to Twitter to figure out what sort of autocorrect error would come up with “Joey”, and someone came up with “Kiss”, which is what Rebel’s are called on certain areas of the planet.
> Which Rebel is due for replacement? We think the EOS Rebel T7i/800D/Kiss X9i is a little long in the tooth, as it was announced back in February of 2017.
> There are no specifications at this time, but the bigger leaks are likely coming over the next week or two.
> As pointed out on our forum, it’s possible that it could also mean a new entry-level EOS M camera is coming, as the EOS M50 also received the “Kiss” designation.



Continue reading...


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## canonical (Aug 4, 2019)

yes! Just as entry level DSLRs are experiencing total market contraction, more Rebels are urgently needed. Way to go Canon!

Hope those Joeys come out with vastly improved Mk. II versions of EOS M5, M6, M50 and M100 soon, rather than wasting time and money on yet more rebel kisses of death.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 4, 2019)

canonical said:


> yes! Just as entry level DSLRs are experiencing total market contraction, more Rebels are urgently needed. Way to go Canon!
> 
> Hope those Joeys come out with vastly improved Mk. II versions of EOS M5, M6, M50 and M100 soon, rather than wasting time and money on yet more rebel kisses of death.



I would figure lower manufacturing costs is a big reason a new Rebel would be produced. Modernizing parts shared across the EOS ecosystem and whatnot.


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## -pekr- (Aug 4, 2019)

Yet another Rebel is last thing this world needs imo. Canon might introduce new tech, but not in the bottom models, where they have to introduce compromises anyway. If it is the Rebol instead of new M models, then I start to really scratch my head about Canon's strategy ....


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 4, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> I would figure lower manufacturing costs is a big reason a new Rebel would be produced. Modernizing parts shared across the EOS ecosystem and whatnot.


Logical. That’s why they’ve updated the 18-55 kit lenses on multiple occasions with only cosmetic changes but lower production cost meaning incrementally higher unit profit on a high volume product. 

But don’t mind canonical=AvTvM, he’s a little biased.


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## BeenThere (Aug 4, 2019)

RP with a mirror box. Marketing genius!


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## SaP34US (Aug 4, 2019)

Isn't the M50 also a KISS on Japan? Couldn't the "Joey" be either one of these three an upgrade to M100, an upgrade to M50, or a new Mirrorless aps-c camera?


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 4, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Yet another Rebel is last thing this world needs imo. Canon might introduce new tech, but not in the bottom models, where they have to introduce compromises anyway. If it is the Rebol instead of new M models, then I start to really scratch my head about Canon's strategy ....



Rebel's still sell. Not like they did 5 years ago, but they're still worthwhile to produce.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 4, 2019)

SaP34US said:


> Isn't the M50 also a KISS on Japan? Couldn't the "Joey" be either one of these three an upgrade to M100, an upgrade to M50, or a new Mirrorless aps-c camera?



Possible


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## LensFungus (Aug 4, 2019)

I wonder about the specs and the price. I mean the awareness of mirrorless cameras like the Fujifilm X-Txx series or the Sony A6xxx series is growing and even Canon's own cameras like the Canon M100, M50, M6 or M5 are way cheaper than the release date price of the old Canon 800D.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 4, 2019)

LensFungus said:


> I wonder about the specs and the price. I mean the awareness of mirrorless cameras like the Fujifilm X-Txx series or the Sony A6xxx series is growing and even Canon's own cameras like the Canon M100, M50, M6 or M5 are way cheaper than the release date price of the old Canon 800D.


I wonder how sales of the 800D compared to sales of the M100, etc. Canon doesn’t have to wonder about that.


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## Adelino (Aug 4, 2019)

With the market contracting and Canon's great rep amongst the soccer moms and families needing more than a phone will do Canon will likely increase market share considerably in the inexpensive ILC market as others drop out. And Canon have that Costco, Best Buy etc marketing down like no other. You should see their massive tent at the Albuquerque Balloon Fiesta, cameras on loan and free Canon camera cleaning they market like no other.


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## unfocused (Aug 4, 2019)

Adelino said:


> With the market contracting and Canon's great rep amongst the soccer moms and families needing more than a phone will do Canon will likely increase market share considerably in the inexpensive ILC market as others drop out. And Canon have that Costco, Best Buy etc marketing down like no other. You should see their massive tent at the Albuquerque Balloon Fiesta, cameras on loan and free Canon camera cleaning they market like no other.



This is an excellent point. A contracting market affects those at the bottom of the food chain more than the one at the top of the chain. DSLRs are far from dead and Canon likely sees an opportunity to further consolidate and dominate the market.


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## slclick (Aug 4, 2019)

ONCE AGAIN... another rebel is the last thing most forum residents need, however the rest of the world doesn't live in your high DR, mic port, uncropped 4k world. We are a selfish lot.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 4, 2019)

slclick said:


> ONCE AGAIN... another rebel is the last thing most forum residents need, however the rest of the world doesn't live in your high DR, mic port, uncropped 4k world. We are a selfish lot.


I don’t know why the simple fact is so hard for some forum members to wrap their brains around, but that’s life.


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## blackcoffee17 (Aug 4, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Yet another Rebel is last thing this world needs imo. Canon might introduce new tech, but not in the bottom models, where they have to introduce compromises anyway. If it is the Rebol instead of new M models, then I start to really scratch my head about Canon's strategy ....




They can't just abandon the EOS system and Rebel users and expect everyone to buy a mirrorless and use the EF/S lenses with adaptor.
They will still need to maintain the line for the next 10 years or so. That's what a serious company does.


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## Tom W (Aug 4, 2019)

I think it's a pretty safe bet that there is always a new rebel coming. Sometimes, just a dressed-up version of the previous model with a couple of new features, and sometimes, an entirely new model. But there's always a new rebel right around the corner.


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## M. D. Vaden of Oregon (Aug 4, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Rebel's still sell. Not like they did 5 years ago, but they're still worthwhile to produce.



Rebels have such a rock solid name reputation across the general populace, it could be foolish not to continue the line for a while.

Others above hinting to the the Rebel's age, could also be foolish. Just for example, I know lots of people who like 60's cars, 90's VW vans, turntables for music, etc.. So why not also a Rebel? Plus, the Rebels are still good technology without any more advancement.


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## Quarkcharmed (Aug 4, 2019)

In Australia, Joey stands for the baby Kangaroo... Not sure if it's the target audience of the prospective camera...


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## unfocused (Aug 4, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> In Australia, Joey stands for the baby Kangaroo... Not sure if it's the target audience of the prospective camera...


I love the way those guys twist themselves around in the pouch. They seem as flexible as cats.


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## Quarkcharmed (Aug 4, 2019)

M. D. Vaden of Oregon said:


> Others above hinting to the the Rebel's age, could also be foolish. Just for example, I know lots of people who like 60's cars, 90's VW vans, turntables for music, etc.. So why not also a Rebel?


because it's not a retro niche product?


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## Sharlin (Aug 4, 2019)

Given that the M50 was branded Kiss, it makes total sense that the potential M100 successor will be as well.


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## blackcoffee17 (Aug 4, 2019)

M100 update with a bit better everything would be nice. And please Canon get rid of that mini USB port and replace it with USB Type C with charging option.


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## tmc784 (Aug 4, 2019)

Rebel is a good family camera, far better than point and shot.
How many people want to spend $3000+ for only a camera body ?


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## Architect1776 (Aug 4, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Yet another Rebel is last thing this world needs imo. Canon might introduce new tech, but not in the bottom models, where they have to introduce compromises anyway. If it is the Rebol instead of new M models, then I start to really scratch my head about Canon's strategy ....



The FD mount Canon T60 was introduced in 1990, 3 years after the EOS was introduced. It was discontinued until 2012. Canon has other markets besides the US market and they know what is selling and needed world wide. Funny how so many on these forums are totally US centric in their opinions as to what a manufacturer should do. I would imagine Canon has a reason for what they are doing that we are not privy to.


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## mb66energy (Aug 4, 2019)

What I see (in Germany) is low cost Rebels very often. M cameras very seldom. FF cameras very seldom.

One great advantage of the Rebels is that they do not need a lot of battery so they are ready to shoot without recharging over a much longer period compared to the M cameras. I think that is more important for Joe Average (or Otto Normalverbraucher) than the lots of benefits mirrorless cameras have.


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## codynpatterson (Aug 4, 2019)

We already have two entry level EOS M cameras. Basically all of them are entry level at this point. A rebel makes more sense, or an entry level RF mount camera.


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## EverydayPhotographer (Aug 4, 2019)

I spent a week with an EOS RP and RF24-105f/4.0L two weeks ago, and I have to say that if there is any singular reason to dive into the R series, its the strength of the lenses. They're unbelievable (in the limited exposure I had). The single biggest negative would be the lack of cross compatibility from the RF lenses back to something else. The lack of an RF-EF adapter makes sense because of the shorter flange distance. An RF to EF-M adapter is a little tougher - the difference in flange distance is only 2mm, but that still seems doable. But there must be a reason why Canon doesn't want to (or can't) make RF lenses usable on EF-M mount cameras like they did with EF mount lenses. Personally, I think that they have to view the M series mirrorless market - which is still pretty strong in Asia - as a completely separate market from the DSLR and R series mirrorless markets, with very little crossover. I am certain that I am an anomaly in that regard.

But it got me to thinking that the rumors of an APS-C R body would be an interesting development in the R mirrorless architecture, as it might fill in a little bit of a gap. Especially now that they've added a "consumer-level" (or at least non-L) lens in the RF 24-240 f/4.0-6.3, it makes me wonder if a small APS-C R body might be a decent seller. As with some of the initial kit offerings with the RP, Canon has also shown that they're not afraid to fill in the lens gaps by including a lens adapter and an EF lens.

So on a rumor scale of negative 50, SWAG (Some Wild Ass Guess) is that an R series Rebel mirrorless camera would be a suitable (and potentially logical) addition to the R series lineup, and potentially a good seller.


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## mpb001 (Aug 4, 2019)

I really don’t see the point of continuing the Rebel DSLR at this point. I guess Canon marketing thinks otherwise, but it seems to me maybe a mirrorless Rebel might be more fitting, but I guess that might already be available in like an M100?


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## Don Haines (Aug 4, 2019)

Hmmmmmm.....

Why would they release a Rebel?

Possibly because it will outsell the 1DX2, 5D4, 5Ds, 6D2, 7D2, R, and RP combined......


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## dtaylor (Aug 4, 2019)

canonical said:


> yes! Just as entry level DSLRs are experiencing total market contraction...



Do people even look at sales stats before posting stuff like this? And by 'stuff like this' I'm including the 'everyone is jumping ship to Sony!' nonsense.

CIPA stats show that the entire market is contracting, including mirrorless. DSLRs still out sell mirrorless every where but Japan, but mirrorless now represents more revenue. 

The summary report doesn't break data out to this level of detail, but it's a good bet that DSLRs still vastly out sell mirrorless in America and Europe at the low end. And it's quite possible that at the low end revenue is reversed (DSLRs generate more).



canonical said:


> Hope those Joeys come out with vastly improved Mk. II versions of EOS M5, M6, M50 and M100 soon, rather than wasting time and money on yet more rebel kisses of death.



At any high traffic tourist spot in America you could go blind trying to count all the Rebels. You could also go an entire day without seeing an M, and that's probably the most popular low end mirrorless made. 

As Neuro so often points out, Canon is in this to make money for their investors. That includes catering to the entry level just as much as it includes catering to the high end.


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## Sharlin (Aug 4, 2019)

codynpatterson said:


> We already have two entry level EOS M cameras. Basically all of them are entry level at this point. A rebel makes more sense, or an entry level RF mount camera.



Hm? The M100 is two years old and getting long in the tooth. It uses the LP-E12 battery that one of the new bodies also uses, per the certification data. The M50 is branded ”Kiss” in Japan so it makes sense that any M100 successor will be as well. It seems perfectly reasonable to expect that we will see both an M5/6 and an M100 successor this month, the latter being our mysterious ”Joey”


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## canonical (Aug 4, 2019)

@dtaylor you might want to educate yourself and pay some attention to what Canon Execs themselves publicly state regarding "market contraction" of entry level DSLRs.

"Canon’s Executive Vice President and CFO Toshizo Tanaka admitted that the company continues to expect camera sales to decline. “In Imaging System, we expect sales and profit of interchangeable-lens cameras to decline, due to the continued impact of mainly entry-class DSLR market contraction,” said Toshizo-san. “However, in the area of mirrorless cameras, where we are focusing our energy, the effects of expanding our lineup will continue to lead to sales growth.”


https://petapixel.com/2019/07/26/canons-q2-2019-financial-report-shows-steep-decline-in-camera-sales/



there you go, Canon knows (finally, after many wasted mirror-laden years). only some forum dwellers are still in denial.

i also expect "Joey" to be a mirrorfree "kiss" - most likely the EOS M100 successor - rather than a "Rebel DSLR".


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## privatebydesign (Aug 4, 2019)

The only people in denial are the ones who refuse to accept that DSLR's still comfortably outsell MILC's, and cheap DSLR's outsell expensive DSLR's. Which means two things, one, any camera company that can make money on cheap DSLR's still has a volume market to make money off of, now that market isn't as big as it was but it's still there, and two, any camera company that doesn't service that market is missing out big time.

Sure numbers are changing, but the market is still there to make sales to, and lets not forget Canon make high volume (cheap) DSLR's and MILC's, which makes them the only company eating out of both dishes. Canon don't care if you buy a DSLR or a MILC, but they do want you to be able to buy a Canon.


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## canonical (Aug 5, 2019)

look into Canon and Nikon financial reports: inventory levels of low-end DSLRs are extremely high, because they are not selling well any longer. 3 generations of rebels filling up warehouses and shelves. the last thing needed is even more different models of rebel DSLRs.

what's needed is a massive firesale of excess DSLR inventory and consolidation to only 2 rebel DSLRs (SL3 plus the cheapest current model T100/4000D), and much more importantly an excellent lineup of updated EOS M models to combat Sony and take advantage of Nikon not having any crop mirrorfree system cameras at all in their portfolio.

that's what Canon will do. if it really helps sales, they can certainly name EOS M cameras "digital rebel" in the US, "digital kiss" in Japan and "digital Joey" in Oz. we in Europe are a bit more rational and don't need any of that marketing fudge, we are happy with simple, straightforward alphanumeric monikers like M5, M6, M50 and M100.


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## slclick (Aug 5, 2019)

codynpatterson said:


> We already have two entry level EOS M cameras. Basically all of them are entry level at this point. A rebel makes more sense, or an entry level RF mount camera.


No. The M5 is not entry level, it has advanced features such as focus peaking and full customization. It is hardly a T7.


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## canonical (Aug 5, 2019)

slclick said:


> No. The M5 is not entry level, it has advanced features such as focus peaking and full customization. It is hardly a T7.



yep. and EOS M50 is even more advanced with notably better AF system. Essentially a mirrorfree 80D at a lower price (MSRP) reflecting lower manufacturing cost of mirrorfree cameras vs. DSLRs.


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## hamish (Aug 5, 2019)

M. D. Vaden of Oregon said:


> Rebels have such a rock solid name reputation across the general populace



I live in Australia. Canon doesn't call them Rebels here (and in lots of other places around the world too). To us they're just DSLR cameras.


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## dtaylor (Aug 5, 2019)

canonical said:


> @dtaylor you might want to educate yourself and pay some attention to what Canon Execs themselves publicly state regarding "market contraction" of entry level DSLRs. "Canon’s Executive Vice President and CFO Toshizo Tanaka admitted that the company continues to expect camera sales to decline. “In Imaging System, we expect sales and profit of interchangeable-lens cameras to decline, due to the continued impact of mainly entry-class DSLR market contraction,” said Toshizo-san.



This does not contradict anything I posted from CIPA sales stats. Entry level DSLRs can be taking the brunt of the market contraction yet still out sell everything else.



> “However, in the area of mirrorless cameras, where we are focusing our energy, the effects of expanding our lineup will continue to lead to sales growth.”



The mirrorless market is not growing, it's contracting along with the entire non-phone camera market. "Sales growth" in this context means a bigger slice of a smaller pie.



> only some forum dwellers are still in denial.



Speak for yourself: http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201906_e.pdf


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## dtaylor (Aug 5, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> The only people in denial are the ones who refuse to accept that DSLR's still comfortably outsell MILC's, and cheap DSLR's outsell expensive DSLR's.



We are approaching the crossover point, but you are correct that DSLRs still out sell MILCs. The do so by wide margins in North America and Europe.


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## EOBeav (Aug 5, 2019)

tmc784 said:


> Rebel is a good family camera, far better than point and shot.
> How many people want to spend $3000+ for only a camera body ?


Actually, a G7XmkIII might be really tempting for somebody who wants a family camera but doesn't want the relative bulk of a Rebel + 18-55mm kit lens.


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## Rixy (Aug 5, 2019)

And the 90D, when? I'm only interested in this


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## slclick (Aug 5, 2019)

Rixy said:


> And the 90D, when? I'm only interested in this


There are different threads you know. It's like me going on a drum forum with a post about cymbals and chiming in about a kick pedal.


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## -pekr- (Aug 5, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> I don’t know why the simple fact is so hard for some forum members to wrap their brains around, but that’s life.





slclick said:


> ONCE AGAIN... another rebel is the last thing most forum residents need, however the rest of the world doesn't live in your high DR, mic port, uncropped 4k world. We are a selfish lot.



Go and sell those ppl just the same Rebel with the 2019 moniker then, they will hardly notice. I can tell you - more and more - M50 / M100 likes are your new Rebels, so once again - the last thing the world needs, is a new DSLR Rebel. Go, buy popcorn, sit down and watch the show ....


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## Ale_F (Aug 5, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> At any high traffic tourist spot in America you could go blind trying to count all the Rebels. You could also go an entire day without seeing an M, and that's probably the most popular low end mirrorless made.



Not just only in America. The large part of cameras are Rebels (or XX00D / X00D) with 18/55 or 18/200.
These are number of sells, not infinite discussion about double slot.
Yes, market is contracting, but if you are the n.1 seller of DSLR I think it's not the case to stop the production.


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## PerKr (Aug 5, 2019)

slclick said:


> No. The M5 is not entry level, it has advanced features such as focus peaking and full customization. It is hardly a T7.



Focus peaking isn't an advanced feature, it's a basic requirement for an EVF camera.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 5, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Go and sell those ppl just the same Rebel with the 2019 moniker then, they will hardly notice. I can tell you - more and more - M50 / M100 likes are your new Rebels, so once again - the last thing the world needs, is a new DSLR Rebel. Go, buy popcorn, sit down and watch the show ....


Good idea, it can be entertaining when people ignore facts and reality. Entertaining, but sad.


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## victorshikhman (Aug 5, 2019)

Hard to believe the negativity here. The Rebel line has been very successful. It's become a very capable camera and a solid entry point into prosumer APS-C and full frame. How many of us started off on a Rebel? I used my 7 year old T2i until six months ago. Plenty of bloggers and Instagrammers, etc. are using Rebels very effectively. Also, the Rebel line has been used to test new tech, like the tilting screen, touch screen, DPAF, and even eye detect with the mirror up. Maybe they'll use it to test IBIS and BSI sensors. It's probably going to share a sensor with the 90D and successor to the M5/M50, offsetting dev costs. More important than raw tech for the casual user is probably advancements in UI and ease of use, maybe even AI assisted functions. And of course, it's designed to hit that $750 price target for those high volume Best Buy/Costco retail channels, while the 90D will probably come in closer to $1k.

The Rebel line is a lot of value and capability, with two decades of iterative improvement. It's going to sell. Chillax people. The middle finger that is the RP is what we should all still be upset about.


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## slclick (Aug 5, 2019)

PerKr said:


> Focus peaking isn't an advanced feature, it's a basic requirement for an EVF camera.


Once again, an advanced shooters perspective.


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## 12Broncos (Aug 5, 2019)

Keep it up, Canon. Keep announcing meaningless cameras, instead of mirrorless cameras.


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## Woody (Aug 5, 2019)

What if all the new releases are for M series:
M5 Mk II with LP-E6 battery
M6 Mk II with LP-E17 battery
M50 or M100 Mk II with LP-E12 battery
EF-M fish-eye lens (patent here: https://www.canonrumors.com/patent-8-15mm-fisheye-zoom-for-mirrorless/)
EF-M long zoom lens (patent here: https://www.canonrumors.com/patent-lots-of-ef-m-zoom-optical-formulas/)
EF-M kit lens redux


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## jeanluc (Aug 5, 2019)

I hereby propose that from now on, all reference in CR to "Rebels" or whatever they call them elsewhere be replaced by the term "Joeys"....its probably just because its Monday, but that is frickin' hilarious...


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## dtaylor (Aug 5, 2019)

12Broncos said:


> Keep it up, Canon. Keep announcing meaningless cameras, instead of mirrorless cameras.



You do realize DSLRs *still* out sell mirrorless cameras, right?


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## Don Haines (Aug 5, 2019)

victorshikhman said:


> Hard to believe the negativity here. The Rebel line has been very successful. It's become a very capable camera and a solid entry point into prosumer APS-C and full frame. How many of us started off on a Rebel? I used my 7 year old T2i until six months ago. Plenty of bloggers and Instagrammers, etc. are using Rebels very effectively. Also, the Rebel line has been used to test new tech, like the tilting screen, touch screen, DPAF, and even eye detect with the mirror up. Maybe they'll use it to test IBIS and BSI sensors. It's probably going to share a sensor with the 90D and successor to the M5/M50, offsetting dev costs. More important than raw tech for the casual user is probably advancements in UI and ease of use, maybe even AI assisted functions. And of course, it's designed to hit that $750 price target for those high volume Best Buy/Costco retail channels, while the 90D will probably come in closer to $1k.
> 
> The Rebel line is a lot of value and capability, with two decades of iterative improvement. It's going to sell. Chillax people. The middle finger that is the RP is what we should all still be upset about.



We have a lot of camera “elite” on this forum and as had been said countless times, we do not represent the typical user.

The reality is that it is the Rebel cameras that sell in the big numbers and that is what keeps the lights burning on the factory floor. FF cameras are a niche market.


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## canonical (Aug 5, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> The mirrorless market is not growing, it's contracting along with the entire non-phone camera market. "Sales growth" in this context means a bigger slice of a smaller pie.
> 
> http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201906_e.pdf



DSLR sales are in free fall. Especially low-end DSLRs. Only the most ignorant BestBuy and CostCo n00bs are still buying Rebel class DSLRs. Many more households already have 1, 2 or 3 "Rebels" along with kit zoom stowed away in some drawer and are using their phonecameras for all those senseless selfies and shaky videos (but "in 4k" of course). because those rebels are too bulky and too clumsy. that's reality.


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## canonical (Aug 5, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> We are approaching the crossover point, but you are correct that DSLRs still out sell MILCs. The do so by wide margins in North America and Europe.


"CIPA shipments" is not equal "sales to end-user customers". 

i'd not be surprised if many of those shipped rebel class dslrs are bulldozed or shreddered in the back of some warehouses once they are 2 generations old and still have failed to sell even with all sorts of cash-backs and Black Friday special offers.


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## slclick (Aug 5, 2019)

12Broncos said:


> Keep it up, Canon. Keep announcing meaningless cameras, instead of mirrorless cameras.


Ahh... the 'Me' Generation.


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## slclick (Aug 5, 2019)

canonical said:


> DSLR sales are in free fall. Especially low-end DSLRs. Only the most ignorant BestBuy and CostCo n00bs are still buying Rebel class DSLRs. Many more households already have 1, 2 or 3 "Rebels" along with kit zoom stowed away in some drawer and are using their phonecameras for all those senseless selfies and shaky videos (but "in 4k" of course). because those rebels are too bulky and too clumsy. that's reality.


Such BS, utter rubbish. Imagine a kitchen drawer with instead of NIntendo cables, bottle openers and shopping list pads it has 2-3 Rebels(Joeys) and kit lenses. And even more ridiculous? How anyone thinks they have the data to support this idea.


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## magarity (Aug 5, 2019)

"We think the EOS Rebel T7i/800D/Kiss X9i is a little long in the tooth "

Yet Costco just a couple of months ago finally stopped selling the boxed kit with the T6 and started stocking the T7 box.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 5, 2019)

canonical said:


> DSLR sales are in free fall. Especially low-end DSLRs. Only the most ignorant BestBuy and CostCo n00bs are still buying Rebel class DSLRs. Many more households already have 1, 2 or 3 "Rebels" along with kit zoom stowed away in some drawer and are using their phonecameras for all those senseless selfies and shaky videos (but "in 4k" of course). because those rebels are too bulky and too clumsy. that's reality.


That’s your personal reality in the AvTvM Universe. Out here in the real world there are a lot of BestBuy and Costco shoppers, and ‘normal’ people don’t have 2-3 cameras costing hundreds of dollars each tucked away in drawers.


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## unfocused (Aug 5, 2019)

canonical said:


> ...i'd not be surprised if many of those shipped rebel class dslrs are bulldozed or shreddered in the back of some warehouses once they are 2 generations old and still have failed to sell even with all sorts of cash-backs and Black Friday special offers.



Huh? That's beyond crazy.


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## SaP34US (Aug 5, 2019)

Woody said:


> EF-M fish-eye lens (patent here: https://www.canonrumors.com/patent-8-15mm-fisheye-zoom-for-mirrorless/)
> When used in 4k with additional crop will appear to have the Fish eye effect? I would think it might be mainly for 4k video
> The EF-M 18-200mm 4.5-6.3 sounds cool.
> [Q/QUOTE]


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## magarity (Aug 5, 2019)

canonical said:


> DSLR sales are in free fall. Especially low-end DSLRs. Only the most ignorant BestBuy and CostCo n00bs are still buying Rebel class DSLRs. Many more households already have 1, 2 or 3 "Rebels" along with kit zoom stowed away in some drawer and are using their phonecameras for all those senseless selfies and shaky videos (but "in 4k" of course). because those rebels are too bulky and too clumsy. that's reality.


It's super funny how the CR seniority system labels you as a T7i next to your poseur rant against Rebels.


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## slclick (Aug 5, 2019)

Who else is enjoying the popcorn?


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## StoicalEtcher (Aug 5, 2019)

Seems to me that at least one potential purpose of the "next" Rebel is simply to have a "latest model" available for marketing purposes.

I'd expect most Rebels to be purchased either by people new to 'serious' photography, i.e. their first step into interchangeable lens territory, or perhaps by colleges. 

For a number of first adopters (and I know a few, as I often get asked by people buying their first SLR) £250-350 is a lot of money - it's a new fridge, dishwasher, washing machine budget. For them, getting "the latest model" is an important part of the choice of what to purchase - the same reason that car manufacturers release new versions of essentially the same model every 4 years or so.

For someone making (for them) a significant consumer purchase, ensuring they buy something that will not shortly become obsolete (due to apparently being superseded - more experienced customers know it isn't actually obsolete ) really does seem to feature in their decision making. It should't matter, but it does. (Caveat: my limited experience of 'newbies' only).

If it is a new DSLR, I'd expect a refreshed model, with latest updates for features that are either as cheap, or better still cheaper, to manufacture, for the simple reason of being able to offer a "latest model" to new/future customers.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 6, 2019)

canonical said:


> DSLR sales are in free fall.



Then I guess the entire industry is because...once again...mirrorless sales are falling as well.


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## unfocused (Aug 6, 2019)

StoicalEtcher said:


> ...For someone making (for them) a significant consumer purchase, ensuring they buy something that will not shortly become obsolete (due to apparently being superseded - more experienced customers know it isn't actually obsolete ) really does seem to feature in their decision making...



Generally agree, but I think the more likely concern is not that people are worried that a camera will become obsolete. More likely, they just want to buy the latest model. I believe that these days, many people treat cameras like other consumer electronics. I know my own behavior about most electronics is: go to the store. Look at the TVs. Can't tell them apart. The clerk says, "this one is the 2019 model. That one is the 2018 model." They are about the same price. I buy the 2019 model. It's newer, maybe it has something that the old model doesn't.


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## slclick (Aug 6, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Generally agree, but I think the more likely concern is not that people are worried that a camera will become obsolete. More likely, they just want to buy the latest model. I believe that these days, many people treat cameras like other consumer electronics. I know my own behavior about most electronics is: go to the store. Look at the TVs. Can't tell them apart. The clerk says, "this one is the 2019 model. That one is the 2018 model." They are about the same price. I buy the 2019 model. It's newer, maybe it has something that the old model doesn't.


Great point. You have to take your advanced photographic experience and knowledge out of the equation here when talking about this level of purchasing, you just did it but it is very difficult for others on CR as we have read. We see cameras for something greater than the average Joe. So we fetishize them, critique them and scrutinize them in the most ridiculous ways. Regular folks, just go and do what Unfocused said...walk in, look at the price point, ask 1-2 questions (maybe) and get rung up. Joeys =$$$$$. $$$$$ gives Canon R&D $$$$ to create the less than 1% of total sales items which is what WE buy. Thank you Joey.


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## codynpatterson (Aug 6, 2019)

This has been a fun chat. Lol


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## hamish (Aug 6, 2019)

StoicalEtcher said:


> I'd expect most Rebels to be purchased either by people new to 'serious' photography, i.e. their first step into interchangeable lens territory, or perhaps by colleges.
> 
> For a number of first adopters (and I know a few, as I often get asked by people buying their first SLR) £250-350 is a lot of money - it's a new fridge, dishwasher, washing machine budget. For them, getting "the latest model" is an important part of the choice of what to purchase - the same reason that car manufacturers release new versions of essentially the same model every 4 years or so.



I agree with both of these statements. I have a 200D (Rebel SL2, Kiss X9). It's a step above the basic entry-level. I also bought a Canon 18-135mm IS STM lens, second hand from eBay, which maxed out my budget at the time. I travelled for 3 months backpacking in Africa and Europe and took some pretty good photos.

I've since added the 55-250mm lens and the 24mm prime (both second hand from eBay again) and enjoy using it. I find the 9 point optical AF pretty limiting, especially for birds, so am looking for an upgrade at some point, maybe to the M5 II or 90D which look interesting.

So, yes, a "Rebel" is a perfectly good day-to-day camera, and is also a good intro to the world of ILCs. For me, it's a stepping stone to better gear, at some point when I can afford it. Unless FF comes right down in price, I'm going to be looking firmly at the M series and the APS-Cs.


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## tmc784 (Aug 6, 2019)

EOBeav said:


> Actually, a G7XmkIII might be really tempting for somebody who wants a family camera but doesn't want the relative bulk of a Rebel + 18-55mm kit lens.


Oh ! That is a kid's camera.


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## -pekr- (Aug 6, 2019)

codynpatterson said:


> This has been a fun chat. Lol



Yes, indeed. Slcklick and others theoretising about average joy buying his next hamburger, not understanding the basic message of those complaining and answering the questions noone asked. Everybody and your mom knows, that most ppl buy stuff without emotional attachement. So why state the obvious? The basic message was not about why the world needs another Rebel. But why the world needs it NOW? So competition announces e.g. A7R IV and Canon is expected to come up with exactly what - next Rebel? Really great marketing reaction then ....


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## SecureGSM (Aug 6, 2019)

Because many need an inexpensive, reliable , simple to use camera with good ergonomics and friendly menu, that delivers nice images in a reasonable conditions that is also Is repairable in 4-5 years from now. Bang!


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## dtaylor (Aug 6, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> So competition announces e.g. A7R IV and Canon is expected to come up with exactly what - next Rebel? Really great marketing reaction then ....



In Canon's defense, the Rebel is probably better weather sealed.

All joking aside: you know darn well Canon's answer to the A7R IV is coming. We've only had a dozen rumor posts about it.


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## canonical (Aug 6, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Because many need an inexpensive, reliable , simple to use camera with good ergonomics and friendly menu, that delivers nice images in a reasonable conditions that is also Is repairable in 4-5 years from now. Bang!



nobody will repair cheap, low-end digital cameras 4-5 years down the road. cost of labour is way to high. 

inexpensive, functionally capable, excellent IQ, highly compact mirrorfree EOS M cameras are "by design" mechanically way more robust and reliable than any "Rebel with slapping mirror inside" which don't even offer AFMA to correct for minor AF misalignments.

Nobody disputes that Canon Rebel DSLRs and EF-S glass were an excellent entry point into photography 10 years ago. but today, in 2019 they are simply totally antiquated tech and mirrorfree EOS M plus great, well-affordable EF-M lenses is the only crop sensor system Canon needs to offer to get new buyers into their ecosystem and retain market leadership.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 6, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> The basic message was not about why the world needs another Rebel. But why the world needs it NOW? So competition announces e.g. A7R IV and Canon is expected to come up with exactly what - next Rebel? Really great marketing reaction then ....


Because Sony is a distant third place in ILC market share, and Canon feels no need to care about their release schedules? 

Because Sony’s FF MILC releases are like a sunrise – sometimes they’re pretty but they happen really frequently so after a while you start to just take them for granted?

Because far, far more people buy APS-C DSLRs than FF MILCs?

Shall I go on?


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## Kit. (Aug 6, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> So why state the obvious? The basic message was not about why the world needs another Rebel. But why the world needs it NOW?


Why not?



-pekr- said:


> So competition announces e.g. A7R IV and Canon is expected to come up with exactly what - next Rebel? Really great marketing reaction then ....


Why should Canon change their Rebel release schedule with Sony's release of A7R series?


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## SecureGSM (Aug 6, 2019)

canonical said:


> nobody will repair cheap, low-end digital cameras 4-5 years down the road. cost of labour is way to high.
> 
> inexpensive, functionally capable, excellent IQ, highly compact mirrorfree EOS M cameras are "by design" mechanically way more robust and reliable than any "Rebel with slapping mirror inside" which don't even offer AFMA to correct for minor AF misalignments.
> 
> Nobody disputes that Canon Rebel DSLRs and EF-S glass were an excellent entry point into photography 10 years ago. but today, in 2019 they are simply totally antiquated tech and mirrorfree EOS M plus great, well-affordable EF-M lenses is the only crop sensor system Canon needs to offer to get new buyers into their ecosystem and retain market leadership.


AvTvM ?  yet another incarnation of mirror-slapping Oracle.

ok. i will address just this:

+++ "Rebel with slapping mirror inside" which don't even offer AFMA to correct for minor AF misalignments.

SGSM: Rebel audience would not have a clue about AFMA and its existence. in addition, these people typically shoot with kit zoom lenses with somewhat slow aperture. DOF likely to take care of any AFMA issues if any.
majority would use camera in "A" (fully automatic) mode anyway.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Aug 6, 2019)

The rebels are a great way for canon to subsidise the XXd and 7d development costs. Here’s hoping that this means a mark iii is somewhere on the horizon.


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## stevelee (Aug 6, 2019)

tmc784 said:


> Oh ! That is a kid's camera.


Well, I'm in my second childhood, or maybe third. (Or maybe I go from my second to my third when I upgrade the G7X II to the III.)


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## stevelee (Aug 6, 2019)

12Broncos said:


> Keep it up, Canon. Keep announcing meaningless cameras, instead of mirrorless cameras.


Catoptrophobia afflicts less than 4% of the population.


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## slclick (Aug 6, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Yes, indeed. Slcklick and others theoretising about average joy buying his next hamburger, not understanding the basic message of those complaining and answering the questions noone asked. Everybody and your mom knows, that most ppl buy stuff without emotional attachement. So why state the obvious? The basic message was not about why the world needs another Rebel. But why the world needs it NOW? So competition announces e.g. A7R IV and Canon is expected to come up with exactly what - next Rebel? Really great marketing reaction then ....


Comprehension and context went flying right by you with my post. I had no intention of discussing your 'why', I was addressing the buying habits. How easily you missed that. 'Why' is up to Canon, not me. Now, some here believe they are more in touch with camera markets than Canon. That's cute.


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## EOBeav (Aug 6, 2019)

tmc784 said:


> Oh ! That is a kid's camera.


Hardly. An ELPH is a kid's camera.


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## stevelee (Aug 6, 2019)

Through the mid '60s I used a Yashica rangefinder camera. I made some of the best pictures of my life with it. It had a 45mm lens, and I soon got to where I could visualize in that focal length when looking at a scene before picking up the camera. (That is about normal anyway.) I did my own darkroom work even in a dorm room, even color. Then I got my first SLR, a Canon, since I couldn't afford a Nikon. (I did get a Nikon enlarger lens.) I got a range of prime lenses over time, since zooms were heavy, bulky, and not very good in those days. I was still fairly serious about photography. I could make a few hundred dollars before classes started my last few years in grad school, so that was nice, and it was a good chunk of money back then.

We'll fast-forward through my ten years of not taking a camera with me when I traveled, so I'd actually see and do things rather than just take pictures. After I was no longer so serious about photography, I got a smaller film camera to take on trips, and took some decent slides in Prague, especially, in 2000. I took color negatives in Glacier National Park in 2001. I still intend to scan a lot of the best shots in and post on my web site. I bought a Casio as my first digital camera for an Alaska cruise in 2002. I made a lot of good pictures on the trip, but limited the number I took at the full 4MP because of storage limitations.

Jumping ahead in this already tedious autobiography, I went into a now-defunct appliance store to look at washers, dryers, and TVs for the home I had built for retirement. I wound up making an impulse purchase of a Rebel X(something) with kit lens and a $100 telephoto zoom. It took good pictures, but the CA on the telephoto was something fierce, and low-light pictures were incredibly noisy. So that taught me that a Rebel was fine; I just needed a better one. So I got a T3i. It is a good camera still. I got more Ef-S and a few EF lenses as I needed them, I thought. The 80D came out, and that seemed an obvious upgrade for me, but I decided to wait for the 6D2. So I photographed the total solar eclipse with the T3i and the suboptimal 75-300mm zoom. Somebody's online graphs told me to stop down to f/11, so I did. Almost all of the CA went away. I'm proud of my eclipse pictures, including a diamond ring shot.

But at that point I departed from my Rebel ways. It was still a good camera, and I could take good pictures with it, but this is the point where I become more like a lot of you guys. I bought the 6D2 with the kit zoom. I have been very pleased with it as an upgrade to the T3i, even though small children point and laugh and try to pronounce "dynamic range" as they scoff. I bought amazing L wide-angle and telephoto zooms. I am mostly over GAS for a while, except for considering upgrading my travel G7X II.

Thus endeth this episode of "Confessions of a Rebel Shooter."


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## -pekr- (Aug 6, 2019)

slclick said:


> Comprehension and context went flying right by you with my post. I had no intention of discussing your 'why', I was addressing the buying habits. How easily you missed that. 'Why' is up to Canon, not me. Now, some here believe they are more in touch with camera markets than Canon. That's cute.



Neither of us knows, what Canon is thinking in particular, apart from some official memos. We can't be even sure, that the camera coming is a DSLR Rebel. My guess is, it is not. And if it is, and just mostly refurbishes old tech, then I just go - meh. Some ppl are fine with Canon being a sales leader, I would prefer Canon being a techology leader again. In the long term, it might make a difference. And I can bet, that Canon knows that too and new tech is around the corner ...


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 6, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Some ppl are fine with Canon being a sales leader, I would prefer Canon being a techology leader again. In the long term, it might make a difference.


Let me guess, your definition of 'technology' is limited to image sensor DR and readout speed, right? 
An image sensor with millions of AF points? Not technology.​An f/2 standard-range zoom lens for FF? Not technology.​Tilt-shift-macro lenses? Not technology.​That's pretty narrow thinking. I bet you use 2 cm wide scratch pads to jot down your ideas.


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## victorshikhman (Aug 6, 2019)

I conducted an official, scientific survey today in lower Manhattan. 7 Rebels (or even less), 1 M series, 1 5D with an L lens, 3 Nikon crops, 1 point and shoot I couldn't make out. I saw maybe 5 people using cell phones for photos. Zero all else. This was over an hour of walking outside and two hours of visiting the Museum of the American Indian.

Edit: You're welcome.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 7, 2019)

victorshikhman said:


> I conducted an official, scientific survey today in lower Manhattan. 7 Rebels (or even less), 1 M series, 1 5D with an L lens, 3 Nikon crops, 1 point and shoot I couldn't make out. I saw maybe 5 people using cell phones for photos. Zero all else. This was over an hour of walking outside and two hours of visiting the Museum of the American Indian.
> 
> Edit: You're welcome.


If you had said you saw 7 Sony MILCs, 6 Canon ILCs and a Nikon, and Sony read your post, they’d issue a press release stating they are dominating the ILC market in major metropolitan tourism destinations.*^†




* based on a Sony survey
^ for one day in the month of August
† in Lower Manhattan


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## slclick (Aug 7, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> If you had said you saw 7 Sony MILCs, 6 Canon ILCs and a Nikon, and Sony read your post, they’d issue a press release stating they are dominating the ILC market in major metropolitan tourism destinations.*^†
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 All in one coffee shop with folks Instagramming their food


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## -pekr- (Aug 7, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Let me guess, your definition of 'technology' is limited to image sensor DR and readout speed, right?
> An image sensor with millions of AF points? Not technology.​An f/2 standard-range zoom lens for FF? Not technology.​Tilt-shift-macro lenses? Not technology.​That's pretty narrow thinking. I bet you use 2 cm wide scratch pads to jot down your ideas.



Right now, the biggest obstacle with Canon cameras, is its image sensor and related stuff, yes. So to answer your questions:

- Focusing, DPAF might be an advantage, but as far as other cameras don't have focusing problem, one does not need to care. Go at the continuous tracking and bum, you are done. 2-3 fps anyone?
- Not a camera technology.
- Not a camera technology.

That's not a narrow thinking, that's just your delusional thinking, that Canon leads the market. I've got new perspective for you - in last 10 years, Sony got from what actual numbers, to what actual numbers? Even if they would gain 10-20% of the market, it mostly means one fact - they took it from others - go figure. (let's forget for a moment, that the market of cameras would grow in total volumes itself globally, which is denied even by Canon reports admitting camera market contraction).

Now my observation from the frequent visits of our probably biggest local stores (Megapixel), to get your head out from the US market for a moment. Being there, watching ppl, listening to dialogues, I can tell you that Canon is not the first brand being suggested, nor is it the brand ppl ask for as a first option. Hey, they even tried to break me (knowing we are all Canon) to get Sony with an adapter, instead of 5DIV.

There are soft influencers like market sentiment, status quo, hype (waves of popularity) and no matter what Canon numbers are, they are not the leaders of the trends, irrespectively of their eventual no 1 position on the market. Their numbers might be simply higher, if they would prevent shit storms like with the 6DII.

And why I am staying with Canon then, if I am being so critical? Because I am not the one necessarily catching the trendy waves. Because while Canon being slow at releases, I believe they have a good foundation - my plan is to get M new gen as a replacement for 70D and wait for the 5D IV replacement in some 2-3 years, in an R form. M + R are Canon's future. I expect them to tone down DSLRs in few years and seeing no replacement for 7DII is already a head scratcher, as I am not sure eventual 90D is going to replace that. Nor ergonomy wise could it come in a tiny M body.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 7, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Right now, the biggest obstacle with Canon cameras, is its image sensor and related stuff, yes.
> So to answer your questions:
> 
> - Focusing, DPAF might be an advantage, but as far as other cameras don't have focusing problem, one does not need to care. Go at the continuous tracking and bum, you are done. 2-3 fps anyone?
> ...


In other words, you _do_ define technology as only having to do with the image sensor. As I said...narrow thinking. People buy cameras to take pictures, sensors don’t take pictures – cameras and lenses take pictures. 

Incidentally, the biggest obstacle faced by Canon is the declining camera market, and its the biggest obstacle for all other manufacturers as well. The ‘image sensor and related stuff’ is overblown in the microcosm of some Internet forums, out in the real world where people buy cameras it’s not an obstacle for Canon at all...as the market numbers show (I mean the real market numbers, not the ones you made up in your head...). 



-pekr- said:


> That's not a narrow thinking, that's just your delusional thinking, that Canon leads the market. I've got new perspective for you - in last 10 years, Sony got from what actual numbers, to what actual numbers? Even if they would gain 10-20% of the market, it mostly means one fact - they took it from others - go figure.


Canon’s ILC market share 10 years ago was ~44%. Canon’s ILC market share today is ~49%. 

Sony’s ILC market share 10 years ago was ~14% (they were selling some DSLRs and mostly NEX MILCs then, but abandoned DSLRs soon after because they were failing to compete with Cakon and Nikon). Sony’s ILC market share today is ~17%. 

So in the past 10 years, Sony gained a little bit of market share (3%) and Canon gained a bit more (5%, both mainly at the expense of Nikon). That’s the perspective of facts and reality. 

Your ‘new perspective’ is what’s delusional, and your thinking is both narrow and wrong.

Pro tip – if you’re going to base a logical argument on numbers, it helps to have at least a rough idea of what those numbers actually are. Lacking that you usually end looking foolish, as you’ve just effectively demonstrated. 



-pekr- said:


> Now my observation from the frequent visits of our probably biggest local stores (Megapixel), to get your head out from the US market for a moment. Being there, watching ppl, listening to dialogues, I can tell you that Canon is not the first brand being suggested, nor is it the brand ppl ask for as a first option. Hey, they even tried to break me (knowing we are all Canon) to get Sony with an adapter, instead of 5DIV.
> 
> There are soft influencers like market sentiment, status quo, hype (waves of popularity) and no matter what Canon numbers are, they are not the leaders of the trends, irrespectively of their eventual no 1 position on the market. Their numbers might be simply higher, if they would prevent shit storms like with the 6DII.


Given the global ILC market share numbers above, I suggest you get your head out of whatever fantasyland it’s in and look at reality. Your anecdotal experiences while shopping are just that...personal anecdotes. Not data. 

If Sony takes meaningful market share from Canon (not something like the 3% they’ve gained from Nikon over 10 years while Canon was gaining, too), then maybe you can make those claims and actually sound like you know what you’re talking about. 

Until then, your words are as meaningless and hollow as the empty thoughts behind them.


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## -pekr- (Aug 7, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> In other words, you _do_ define technology as only having to do with the image sensor. As I said...narrow thinking. People buy cameras to take pictures, sensors don’t take pictures – cameras and lenses take pictures.
> 
> Incidentally, the biggest obstacle faced by Canon is the declining camera market, and its the biggest obstacle for all other manufacturers as well. The ‘image sensor and related stuff’ is overblown in the microcosm of some Internet forums, out in the real world where people buy cameras it’s not an obstacle for Canon at all...as the market numbers show (I mean the real market numbers, not the ones you made up in your head...).
> 
> ...



Neuro, Nokia probably had hard numbers too, before first iPhone was released, right? So much for your dependency upon the statistical "evidence". 

I myself don't care much about the the tourists using an ILCs. If hammer could make an image, they would use hammer instead of the camera probably. I do care abou the ecosystem I live in - wedding photogs, studio groups, influencers. I know what kind of shift I am seeing in last cca five years. 

I think that Canon knows, that at some point they need upgraded sensor tech. I bet that the new tech is in development for quite some time already, even if Canon might still be growing their numbers with recent tech. Based upon your logic of following only hard sales figures, there would not be much need for an innovation, or would it?


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 7, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Neuro, Nokia probably had hard numbers too, before first iPhone was released, right? So much for your dependency upon the statistical "evidence".


I am not surprised that you trotted out the Nokia trope (though I'm a little surprised you didn't trot out the Kodak trope as well). Smartphones were a paradigm shift, and in less than a decade the non-smartphone mobile market was effectively dead. Similarly, digital cameras were a paradigm shift, and in less than a decade the film camera market was effectively dead. MILCs have been around for well over a decade, and DSLRs are still the majority of the ILC market, and Canon remains the dominant ILC market leader.

Along the same lines of knowing the numbers before you base claims on them, you should try to actually understand the examples you are citing, instead of blindly parroting rehashed tropes.



-pekr- said:


> I myself don't care much about the the tourists using an ILCs. If hammer could make an image, they would use hammer instead of the camera probably. I do care abou the ecosystem I live in - wedding photogs, studio groups, influencers. I know what kind of shift I am seeing in last cca five years.


You mean the 'shift' from 'influencers' that has had no effect on camera sales? I get that you think the tail can wag the dog, but that's not the way reality works.



-pekr- said:


> I think that Canon knows, that at some point they need upgraded sensor tech. I bet that the new tech is in development for quite some time already, even if Canon might still be growing their numbers with recent tech. Based upon your logic of following only hard sales figures, there would not be much need for an innovation, or would it?


Of course they update their sensor tech – what do you think DPAF is? They've updated their lens tech, they've updated their lithography tech, they've been granted more patents than any other Japanese company for several years running.

Your whole premise is that 'sensor tech' is holding them back. Reality proves you wrong. 

But hey, you go right on believing that the two stores you shopped in last week and the three photographer buddies you chatted with yesterday represent the market. Clearly, you like fantasy better than reality.


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## Kit. (Aug 7, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Neuro, Nokia probably had hard numbers too, before first iPhone was released, right? So much for your dependency upon the statistical "evidence".


I had a Nokia _smartphone_ before the first iPhone was released.

Nokia's phone business was killed not by Apple, but by Samsung. Not by the expensive, but by the cheap phones.



-pekr- said:


> I myself don't care much about the the tourists using an ILCs.


I do. I am a tourist, and I use an ILC.

I probably _could _care less about "wedding photogs, studio groups, influencers", but then it would be unhealthy.



-pekr- said:


> I think that Canon knows, that at some point they need upgraded sensor tech.


I think that Canon is regularly upgrading its sensor tech. As well as other major manufacturers of any sensors.


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## slclick (Aug 7, 2019)

Influencers, ugh. We've really sunk to a new low in the Kardashian IG world.


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## Rocky (Aug 8, 2019)

"-pekr- said:
I myself don't care much about the the tourists using an ILCs. If hammer could make an image, they would use hammer instead of the camera probably. I do care abou the ecosystem I live in - wedding photogs, studio groups, influencers. I know what kind of shift I am seeing in last cca five years."

Tourist is what supports the camera industry. Tourist can be from far or from near. Even you go to local park to take pictures of the beautiful flowers. You are a tourist. So please do not smear tourist with mud. Most tourist are hobbyist. They will use whatever equipment they feel like to use, from very expensive to very cheap. Camera industry cannot survive with professional alone. Or they may have to price the equipment to be so expensive that independent professional cannot even afford. The Rebel and the M is what makes the 1Dx to be more reasonably priced.


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## ThomsA (Aug 8, 2019)

The Japanese rumor blog Nokishita just announced that "Canon will announce in the coming days:
- EOS 90D (body, 18-55mm kit, 18-135mm kit)
- EOS M6 Mark II (body, 15-45mm kit, 18-150mm kit)
- RF24-70mm F2.8 L USM
- RF15-35mm F2.8 L USM
- Lens hood EW-88E
- Lens hood EW-88F"


----------



## andrei1989 (Aug 8, 2019)

ThomsA said:


> The Japanese rumor blog Nokishita just announced that "Canon will announce in the coming days:
> - EOS 90 (body, 18-55 mm kit, 18-135 mm kit)
> - EOS M6 Mark II (body, 15-45 mm kit, 18-150 mm kit)
> - RF24-70 mm F2.8 L USM
> ...


so the new rumored lenses are actually old lenses now being made available for purchase...sad...


----------



## -pekr- (Aug 8, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> I am not surprised that you trotted out the Nokia trope (though I'm a little surprised you didn't trot out the Kodak trope as well). Smartphones were a paradigm shift, and in less than a decade the non-smartphone mobile market was effectively dead. Similarly, digital cameras were a paradigm shift, and in less than a decade the film camera market was effectively dead. MILCs have been around for well over a decade, and DSLRs are still the majority of the ILC market, and Canon remains the dominant ILC market leader.
> 
> Along the same lines of knowing the numbers before you base claims on them, you should try to actually understand the examples you are citing, instead of blindly parroting rehashed tropes.
> 
> ...



Your dissmissal attitude of others experience is just bold as usual, but that's just typical you and I am already getting used to it. If you depend on hard data, you should not try to guess, how many ppl I talk to and what kind of info and sources I have access to.

Of course I am talking about paradigm shifts. I am myself considering MILCs being a paradigm shift, even if DSLR sales were not affected ... yet. For me, in regards to Canon, the paradigm shifts (as of late - digital) were - 300D (letting ppl enter into affordable digital world), 5D II (videography), DPAF, R. The last one, is being held back by sensor tech (continuous AF).

Not considering MILC being a paradigm shift, might be a mistake in the long run imo. I watched the death of my favourite Commodore Amiga, later on Escom. Working for Amiga Review for 4 years as a main columnist, I did interviews with some top Amiga core team developers. The author of Amiga OS once told me something like - we once created a revolutionary product. Later on, we started to repackage old stuff. Somehow magically we have forgotten, that it was an innovation, which took us to the top positions in the first place.

The difference is, that you think, that the hard sales figures are the only thing, which matter in the long run, why I think, that it is an attitude towards an innovation, which might influence your future position.


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## -pekr- (Aug 8, 2019)

slclick said:


> Influencers, ugh. We've really sunk to a new low in the Kardashian IG world.



I don't precisely know, who actually Kardashian is, but you seem to do. No wonder you limit the word "influencer" to social and tabloid media


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 8, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> If you depend on hard data, you should not try to guess, how many ppl I talk to and what kind of info and sources I have access to.


The market data represent millions of camera sales per year, Canon surveys thousands of users periodically. Both datasets are global. Unless you have comparable coverage of the market both numerically and geographically, your ‘info and sources’ are essentially irrelevant. 



-pekr- said:


> Of course I am talking about paradigm shifts. I am myself considering MILCs being a paradigm shift, even if DSLR sales were not affected ...


You seem unclear on the definition of a paradigm shift. ILC with mirror to ILC without mirror isn’t one. Not only were DSLR sales not affected, MILC sales have been essentially flat for as long as CIPA has tracked them as a category. But of course, you can certainly consider MILCs a paradigm shift if it helps you sleep at night. Lots of people convince themselves that lies are truth to make themselves feel better. 




-pekr- said:


> The difference is, that you think, that the hard sales figures are the only thing, which matter in the long run, why I think, that it is an attitude towards an innovation, which might influence your future position.


You keep harping on innovation. Objectively, Canon has a demonstrable attitude toward innovation. Canon was third for the number of US patents awarded in last year (top company in Japan), and has been in the top five companies worldwide for granted patents for 33 years running. But as long as you keep listing Canon’s innovations on that 2cm-wide scratchpad that supports your incredibly narrow thinking, you’ll go on believing they don’t innovate. Lots of people convince themselves that lies are truth to make themselves feel better.


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## Kit. (Aug 8, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> No wonder you limit the word "influencer" to social and tabloid media


In any more serious media, they are called "sponsors"


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 8, 2019)

Kit. said:


> In any more serious media, they are called "sponsors"


I think ‘influencers’ is correct in this case. It’s just that @-pekr- is influenced primarily by the camera salesperson at his local shop, and by other photographers he runs into occasionally while out taking snapshots.


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## -pekr- (Aug 8, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> I think ‘influencers’ is correct in this case. It’s just that @-pekr- is influenced primarily by the camera salesperson at his local shop, and by other photographers he runs into occasionally while out taking snapshots.



Well, Neuro thinks I know 2-3 persons in the camera market, while I know actually 4. It makes a real difference and makes me an instant expert


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## Michael Clark (Aug 8, 2019)

EverydayPhotographer said:


> I spent a week with an EOS RP and RF24-105f/4.0L two weeks ago, and I have to say that if there is any singular reason to dive into the R series, its the strength of the lenses. They're unbelievable (in the limited exposure I had). The single biggest negative would be the lack of cross compatibility from the RF lenses back to something else. The lack of an RF-EF adapter makes sense because of the shorter flange distance. An RF to EF-M adapter is a little tougher - the difference in flange distance is only 2mm, but that still seems doable. But there must be a reason why Canon doesn't want to (or can't) make RF lenses usable on EF-M mount cameras like they did with EF mount lenses. Personally, I think that they have to view the M series mirrorless market - which is still pretty strong in Asia - as a completely separate market from the DSLR and R series mirrorless markets, with very little crossover. I am certain that I am an anomaly in that regard.
> 
> But it got me to thinking that the rumors of an APS-C R body would be an interesting development in the R mirrorless architecture, as it might fill in a little bit of a gap. Especially now that they've added a "consumer-level" (or at least non-L) lens in the RF 24-240 f/4.0-6.3, it makes me wonder if a small APS-C R body might be a decent seller. As with some of the initial kit offerings with the RP, Canon has also shown that they're not afraid to fill in the lens gaps by including a lens adapter and an EF lens.
> 
> So on a rumor scale of negative 50, SWAG (Some Wild Ass Guess) is that an R series Rebel mirrorless camera would be a suitable (and potentially logical) addition to the R series lineup, and potentially a good seller.



Because the R mount has a larger throat diameter than the EOS-M mount and because the lugs on the R mount protrude more than 2mm behind the flange surface, it is physically impossible to create a 2mm thick R to EOS-M adapter.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 8, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Similarly, digital cameras were a paradigm shift, and in less than a decade the film camera market was effectively dead.




I wouldn’t go that far. It was a product revolution, not a paradigm shift. Mirrorless is a refinement.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 8, 2019)

EOBeav said:


> Actually, a G7XmkIII might be really tempting for somebody who wants a family camera but doesn't want the relative bulk of a Rebel + 18-55mm kit lens.



Might be. But that's not what most of them go to Best Buy and get.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 8, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Go and sell those ppl just the same Rebel with the 2019 moniker then, they will hardly notice. I can tell you - more and more - M50 / M100 likes are your new Rebels, so once again - the last thing the world needs, is a new DSLR Rebel. Go, buy popcorn, sit down and watch the show ....



Canon has been doing just that, and making money doing it, for almost 20 years. The only difference between the Rebel T3i/600D and the Rebel T4i/650D was the rubber material used to make the hang grip. As long as it still makes money, they'll keep doing it.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 8, 2019)

victorshikhman said:


> Hard to believe the negativity here. The Rebel line has been very successful. It's become a very capable camera and a solid entry point into prosumer APS-C and full frame. How many of us started off on a Rebel? I used my 7 year old T2i until six months ago. Plenty of bloggers and Instagrammers, etc. are using Rebels very effectively. Also, the Rebel line has been used to test new tech, like the tilting screen, touch screen, DPAF, and even eye detect with the mirror up. Maybe they'll use it to test IBIS and BSI sensors. It's probably going to share a sensor with the 90D and successor to the M5/M50, offsetting dev costs. More important than raw tech for the casual user is probably advancements in UI and ease of use, maybe even AI assisted functions. And of course, it's designed to hit that $750 price target for those high volume Best Buy/Costco retail channels, while the 90D will probably come in closer to $1k.
> 
> The Rebel line is a lot of value and capability, with two decades of iterative improvement. It's going to sell. Chillax people. The middle finger that is the RP is what we should all still be upset about.



DPAF actually debuted with the 70D, not a Rebel/xx0D/xx00D body


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 8, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> the last thing the world needs, is a new DSLR Rebel.



The world has never needed a DSLR Rebel. Neither Canon nor any other consumer electronics company is in the business of producing what the world needs; rather they produce what they think consumers will buy.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 8, 2019)

magarity said:


> "We think the EOS Rebel T7i/800D/Kiss X9i is a little long in the tooth "
> 
> Yet Costco just a couple of months ago finally stopped selling the boxed kit with the T6 and started stocking the T7 box.



Which might mean a T8 is imminent?

Maybe this "Joey" is an EOS Rebel T8/2100D?


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## Michael Clark (Aug 8, 2019)

StoicalEtcher said:


> Seems to me that at least one potential purpose of the "next" Rebel is simply to have a "latest model" available for marketing purposes.
> 
> I'd expect most Rebels to be purchased either by people new to 'serious' photography, i.e. their first step into interchangeable lens territory, or perhaps by colleges.
> 
> ...



That's essentially what Canon has been doing with the Rebel/xx0D/xx00D line since they introduced the Digital Rebel/300D in 2003. They've probably sold more of them than all xD/x0D/MxD/Mx0D/Cx00D/etc. sales combined.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 8, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Yes, indeed. Slcklick and others theoretising about average joy buying his next hamburger, not understanding the basic message of those complaining and answering the questions noone asked. Everybody and your mom knows, that most ppl buy stuff without emotional attachement. So why state the obvious? The basic message was not about why the world needs another Rebel. But why the world needs it NOW? So competition announces e.g. A7R IV and Canon is expected to come up with exactly what - next Rebel? Really great marketing reaction then ....



How many entry level ILCs does Sony sell? (Hint: 0)
How much profit does Sony make on entry level ILCs? (Hint; $0)
Who makes more profit on entry level ILCs, Canon or Sony? (Hint: Canon)


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## Michael Clark (Aug 8, 2019)

canonical said:


> nobody will repair cheap, low-end digital cameras 4-5 years down the road. cost of labour is way to high.
> 
> inexpensive, functionally capable, excellent IQ, highly compact mirrorfree EOS M cameras are "by design" mechanically way more robust and reliable than any "Rebel with slapping mirror inside" which don't even offer AFMA to correct for minor AF misalignments.
> 
> Nobody disputes that Canon Rebel DSLRs and EF-S glass were an excellent entry point into photography 10 years ago. but today, in 2019 they are simply totally antiquated tech and mirrorfree EOS M plus great, well-affordable EF-M lenses is the only crop sensor system Canon needs to offer to get new buyers into their ecosystem and retain market leadership.



Nobody disputes that 1080P televisions were an excellent entry point into watching TV 10 years ago. But today, in 2019 they are simply totally antiquated tech and 4K/8K TVs are the only thing TV makers need to offer to get new buyers into their ecosystem and retain market leadership.

See how silly that sounds?


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## Michael Clark (Aug 8, 2019)

stevelee said:


> Catoptrophobia afflicts less than 4% of the population.



But apparently Psychological Projection runs rampant here.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 8, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Neither of us knows, what Canon is thinking in particular, apart from some official memos. We can't be even sure, that the camera coming is a DSLR Rebel. My guess is, it is not. And if it is, and just mostly refurbishes old tech, then I just go - meh. Some ppl are fine with Canon being a sales leader, I would prefer Canon being a techology leader again. In the long term, it might make a difference. And I can bet, that Canon knows that too and new tech is around the corner ...



Who says the same company can't be both a sales leader *and* a technology leader?


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## Michael Clark (Aug 8, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Neuro, Nokia probably had hard numbers too, before first iPhone was released, right? So much for your dependency upon the statistical "evidence".
> 
> I myself don't care much about the the tourists using an ILCs. If hammer could make an image, they would use hammer instead of the camera probably. I do care abou the ecosystem I live in - wedding photogs, studio groups, influencers. I know what kind of shift I am seeing in last cca five years.
> 
> I think that Canon knows, that at some point they need upgraded sensor tech. I bet that the new tech is in development for quite some time already, even if Canon might still be growing their numbers with recent tech. Based upon your logic of following only hard sales figures, there would not be much need for an innovation, or would it?



Which set of consumers buy more total cameras?
Which is a potentially more profitable market?


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## Michael Clark (Aug 8, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> I don't precisely know, who actually Kardashian is, but you seem to do. No wonder you limit the word "influencer" to social and tabloid media



And yet you somehow have your finger on the pulse of the global camera market?


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## canonical (Aug 8, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Out here in the real world there are a lot of BestBuy and Costco shoppers, and ‘normal’ people don’t have 2-3 cameras costing hundreds of dollars each tucked away in drawers.



there are more than enough people / households with a compact/Powershot and a "Rebel/Joey" plus kit lens sitting unused at home in some drawer. All they ever use today is their phones. For snaps and video.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 8, 2019)

canonical said:


> there are more than enough people / households with a compact/Powershot and a "Rebel/Joey" plus kit lens sitting unused at home in some drawer. All they ever use today is their phones. For snaps and video.


I see that you haven’t yet figured out that when you have no evidence to support a claim, repeating that claim multiple times on a forum doesn’t make it true.


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## canonical (Aug 8, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> I see that you haven’t yet figured out that when you have no evidence to support a claim, repeating that claim multiple times on a forum doesn’t make it true.



disputing something without evidence does not prove anything either.


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## flip314 (Aug 8, 2019)

canonical said:


> disputing something without evidence does not prove anything either.



If you're the one making the claim, the onus on you is to provide evidence. Otherwise, it's reasonable to be skeptical.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 9, 2019)

canonical said:


> disputing something without evidence does not prove anything either.


The null hypothesis is the default position. As usual, you fail to provide any evidence to refute it.


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## SecureGSM (Aug 9, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Nobody disputes that 1080P televisions were an excellent entry point into watching TV 10 years ago. But today, in 2019 they are simply totally antiquated tech and 4K/8K TVs are the only thing TV makers need to offer to get new buyers into their ecosystem and retain market leadership.
> 
> See how silly that sounds?


actually... you got me there for a second! until I read the last bit being: See how silly that sounds? phew....


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