# using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??



## iggyotis (Aug 4, 2011)

Hi everyone,

I've just been asked to take some product shots for a small homewares website so things like cushions, blankets etc. Pics like this:
http://www.urbanara.de/wohnen/wolldecken/73/plaid-caracas-decke-aus-100-merinowolle-in-drei-bunten-varianten-130x170-cm
http://www.urbanara.de/wohnen/wolldecken/26/decke-arequipa-reines-peruanisches-baby-alpaka-in-fischgrat-dekor-130x180-cm

I need to bring my own equipment but I only have my camera and lenses:
5D11
50 1.4
100 2.8
35 1.4

So I need a lighting setup so after some research I'm thinking:
2 umbrellas or softboxes - any preference on which to use here? I need to take my equipment to their studio so I'm thinking maybe umbrellas as they are more portable? Although I like the idea of softer light.
2 stands for lights
2 lights - around 500w maybe? Again any preferences on wattage I should use?
a reflector in case i need some help adding light to areas
white roll and stand for this
Light meter

What does everyone think of this setup and am I missing anything?? I'll be going to my local Calumet shop in Germany but as my German isn't great, if anyone can suggest any products from Calumet that would be even more amazing!

Thanks


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## bycostello (Aug 4, 2011)

you could do it with speedlights... what kit you got already?


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## iggyotis (Aug 4, 2011)

Forgot to say I have a 430EX II as well...so I'm wondering whether to buy a more powerful flash (580EX II) to be the master and whether I can use these two instead of buying constant lights?


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## bycostello (Aug 4, 2011)

no reason why you couldn't do it with a 430.. I favour my 580, and 550 (oldie but a goldie!) over my 430 as little more power but for close up shots it'll do the job easy.

What you probablly want to do is get the flash off camera, so if you are shopping an st-e2 is probablly a good buy.

I don't like using speedlights with umbrellas as especially stacked up with radio triggers the usable light verses the umbrella size are 2 vastly different things. i.e. the flash is firing into the top quadrant of the umbrella and not the centre.

So I'd recomend a lastolite ezybox or similar to soften your light, not too expensive and very good product. They come as kits too (as well as seperatly) so you can buy it with a stand.

But if you are not sure what you need, don't forget Calumet hire kit too, so might be a better option till you work out what you need.

I'd recemoned;
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/lastolite_ezybox_hotshoe_kit_60cm_x_60cm/753-769b
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/canon_speedlite_remote_transmitter_st_e2_for_eos_3/321-001q

better off camera kit though would be
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/pocketwizard_flextt5_transceiver_for_canon/352-000b
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/pocketwizard_minitt1_transmitter_for_canon/352-000a


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## iggyotis (Aug 4, 2011)

thanks for the response bycostello!

So you think that I can do the shoot by just using the flash? I would like to maybe take two lights so that I'm not getting any harsh shadows...do you think it makes more sense to buy two continuos lights or should I buy the 580 flash and use this as a master and sync them together....will the effect be relatively similar to using continuos lights?

I will certainly ask Calumet about renting as well.


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## bycostello (Aug 4, 2011)

use the st-e2 as a master and the flash off camera. 2 would be better.

There is nothing that you can do with hot lights that you can't do with flash. you lose the modeling lights but gain a much cheaper and more portable system. given as you say 1st time with lights i don't see the need to start paying a fortune before you really know what you want or need. At the end of the day you are shooting static objects you don't need any fancy set ups.

good resources to look at;
http://strobist.blogspot.com/ look at all the lighting 101 stuff to start.
http://www.joemcnally.com/blog/ look for his you tube stuff too
http://www.prophotonut.com/

3 of the best speedlight experts out there... even if McNally is Nikon!


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## iggyotis (Aug 4, 2011)

so how do I make the light diffused? using umbrellas or softboxes?


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## leGreve (Aug 4, 2011)

I do those kinds of shots 8 hours a day 7 days a week... You can get by with 2 lamps.
We use 2400watts to use in cooperation with daylight.

We shoot with reflectors most the time and for textiles I would even use a grid to really make the texture pop.
For the white outs we shoot 1 lamp with reflector through a large 230cm x 130cm homemade diffuser made from frost filter and a wooden frame and then soften the shot with 1 or 2 white boards.

One thing you have to remember is that the world only has one lamp... once you start messing with lighting from several directions you start bending the truth and pretty fast photos of products will look out of place or unnatural.

The environment shots I would definately shoot as daylight and then an indirect lamp whose light will support the daylight direction. For softening I would again use a white board.

The white boards we have are large styrofoam 1.5 inch thick boards. They can probably be bought from most large retailers of photographic and video equipment.

Two examples of something I did this week... Copyrighted ofcourse.

Bedroom:
Lamp at camera left bouncing on walls and window > aids the light direction and makes it a bit softer.
Whiteboard camera right > in fact a couple I think. Adjust the distance per taste.
Depending on motive: F8 - F11/16 not higher... it get tideous shooting more than one second (our Sinars with ancient PhaseOne backs are touchy about shutter speeds longer than 1 second for some reason).

White out:
Lamp through diffuser camera right pretty high up. Adjust height per taste of shadow.
White board camera left completely up against the table, just out of camera view.
High aperture unless client wants DOF... We shoot F16-22 on almost all of these.


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## iggyotis (Aug 4, 2011)

Hi leGreve, many thanks for replying!



leGreve said:


> I do those kinds of shots 8 hours a day 7 days a week... You can get by with 2 lamps.
> We use 2400watts to use in cooperation with daylight.


these are exactly the kind of thing I'd be after...so you dont use flashes but prefer constant light? is there any chance you can show a link to the lamp type products so I'm sure of exactly what you mean? Also you say you can get by with two lamps but for the whiteouts you use 1 so are you using 2 for the environmental shots?



leGreve said:


> We shoot with reflectors most the time and for textiles I would even use a grid to really make the texture pop.


"grid"...is this the thing that goes into a softbox right? You use a homemade diffuser but could I buy a softbox as I'm not sure I'd be up to building this? 



leGreve said:


> The environment shots I would definately shoot as daylight and then an indirect lamp whose light will support the daylight direction. For softening I would again use a white board.


if the environmental shots can only be shot in a room with no window (i am waiting to see the set up) what are my options there? Just use the one lamp again?


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## EELinneman (Aug 4, 2011)

I just have to jump in. The response that leGreve gave above (well, and below too) is perfect. It's helpful, insightful, not demeaning and exactly what learners need. I see way too much slamming people when they ask a question, do something not perfect in a picture or have an idea that doesn't match with somebody else. Thanks leGreve for your response!

Eric



leGreve said:


> I do those kinds of shots 8 hours a day 7 days a week... You can get by with 2 lamps.
> We use 2400watts to use in cooperation with daylight.
> 
> We shoot with reflectors most the time and for textiles I would even use a grid to really make the texture pop.
> ...


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 4, 2011)

EELinneman said:


> Thanks leGreve for your response!



Agreed! The only comment I'd make is reagarding:



leGreve said:


> The white boards we have are large styrofoam 1.5 inch thick boards. They can probably be bought from most large retailers of photographic and video equipment.



IMO, any time you go to a "large retailer of photographic and video equipment" for something like that, you're asking to pay more money. If I wanted to buy large styrofoam boards or lighter foamcore for a backdrop, I'd go to a craft store.


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## leGreve (Aug 6, 2011)

iggyotis said:


> Hi leGreve, many thanks for replying!



The lamps we use are ancient Bron genny lamps. The generators vary from 1600-3200 watts. These can be had on the grey market for a bargain since every once in a while some old timer either quits or crashes. These old Brons are going steady after more than 20 years. Does help that our studio manager used to sell them though 

Using 1 or two for white outs is a matter of taste. You probably get the feeling that I like to play by lights rules, that's why I use 1 lamp most of the time. My colleagues how ever use two... one main light off right and from behind and then a soft light from the front to soften.
I don't like this as it is not natural. I use one of the large styro boards to bounce the main light and pick up the rest in photoshop (or even better in the raw file in Capture One).

I almost always put a second lamp on when doing shots like that yarn. This has the grid... I think the proper word is not grid but something else. Maybe "honeycomb" or something like that, it goes inside the reflector anyways. I use either the tight one or the very open one.

You could use a soft box... it's pretty much the same thing. I think the reason we have those large screens is because our boss is a bit on the "let's save money" side. It's ok since they work fine. The frost filter works pretty much as the soft box does, so yes, I myself would probably buy a soft box as well.


If you're doing pure studio shots, it gets a bit tricky. When I was an apprentice, I worked in a large daylight studio with all white walls and ceilings. I think the only reason this studio could still work during winter (winter is similar to no windows  ), was because we could step some meters away from the walls and build the "room" there. Then we would bounce 1 or two lamps off the wall to act as a broad light source like the sun. The thing is, if you do it with 1 lamp you need it a bit further away from the wall than with two lamps and it also has to be a bit more powerful... again depending on aperture. In this case I'm thinking F11/16.

This might do the trick of bringing out texture in the subject as well, but if it doesn't we would need a 3rd lamp to skim across the subject with a honeycomb in camera height (from the same side as the bounced light... see file below.

As often as possible I would try to get at least light from the side. The only time when I would light from the same direction as I shooting is when I try to light up the front of the subject and even then I would try to make it come from the side and try to hit the subject evenly.
Imagine you point that 3rd lamp more or less directly on the sofa. You'd get one side light than the other. To avoid this you turn the lamp off to the side as if you were lighting just past the sofa. Instead you're actually hitting the sofa with edge light on the side closest to the lamp and direct light on the side furthest away. That would balance things out a bit.
Or in other words... try to center the lamp just off the corner furthest away from the lamp.

This is of course by no means a set of rules but a guideline that can be altered and changed according to taste and needs


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## leGreve (Aug 6, 2011)

Added info:

It just dawned on me that you are actually asking in regards to a job hehe.

Basically, soft boxes might do the trick for you, placed off to the side. I would probably use one very large box or two smaller. (Instead of the wall... you might not have a white wall? :O)
I would use a 3rd box in case you can't get styro boards or similar. Just don't over do that 3rd lamp as it can end up looking a bit flat. I think the first image you linked too is a wee bit flat.

I would use the 100mm on F11/16 for the white outs. and depending on the setup the 35 and 50 for the other shots. For some of the larger white outs you might have to use the smaller lenses to get sharpness from start to finish. The 100mm could also be used for the environment shot if the client likes depth of field.

I hope this doesn't confuse you too much hehe. Remember, in the end it's what the client wants that counts. We just select the right tool to do the job.

In regards to umbrellas... I don't like them too much. They are a strange thing. I think they are mainly for portraiture rather than "lifestyle". I go with 4 lamps, 3 soft boxes, 2/3 reflectors, a honey comb or two and that's it.

Wattage... I dunno, with direct soft box light 2 or 3 500watts might be enough. I'm damaged goods since I haven't tried shooting lifestyle with my own Bowens lamps yet


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## iggyotis (Aug 6, 2011)

wow I dont know what to say! Thank you SO much for all this info legreve...I am so appreciative that you took the time to write all that this really helps a hell of a lot.

yesterday I saw the set up and they actually have large floor to ceiling windows with loads of daylight coming through so I just wanted to ask, would you ever use that light and add a diffuser panel over the window and use this as one of your "lamps"? maybe use a softbox on the other side if necessary or a reflector to fill in the shadows? Maybe it depends on how much light is coming through but just wanted to see if you would "use" what they have in some way.

The company are now going to pay for the equipment which is amazing, so I just need Calumet to put together a list of what they need to buy so I can show them and they can order it...I've picked out some things and I would really appreciate if you could see whether I';m no the right track...:
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/bowens_hotlite_500w_230v/bw3561uk
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/calumet_universal_speedring/rd3100
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/calumet_8_2_5m_light_stand/mf6030
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/calumet_nova_36_x_48_92_x_122_x_61cm_soft_box_white_interior/rm3148

Also, are the lights hard to set up? I think I will only be able to see all the equipment on the day of the shoot so I'm worrying that I wont know how to put it all together!


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## leGreve (Aug 6, 2011)

The daylight with diffuser is actually a good idea. It will steal one stop on the aperture, but with eliminate harsh shadows. During summer this is exactly how we would shoot.

I dunno those Hotlites. I doubt they are hard to work out. The Bowens Geminis I have (only 500w.. I really would like a bit more wattage, but what the heck) are extremely easy to work out. They also have a card slot, so with two cards in them, I can just put on a Pocket Wizard and I got nice wireless sync.

Just make sure that if they are generator lamps or not...  I can't tell from that website.


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## iggyotis (Aug 8, 2011)

Hey LeGreve, so the lights plug into a generator, not thew mains, is that right? And sorry this is probably a really silly question but why do you need a pocket wizard to wirelessly sync them...are they not on all the time??


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## Lawliet (Aug 13, 2011)

Think in terms of flash, not hot lights.
Enough tungsten gelled to daylight to get f/11 at reasonable time and ISO requires a dedicated power grid; HMIs are better but still demanding and good flourescent area lights make (portable) studio strobes seem cheap.


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## docchevalier (Aug 16, 2011)

Kudos to leGreve for an intelligent and informative reply.

If I may add to his thoughts...(or her thoughts as I don't care to be inadvertently sexist)

Back when I shot 4x5 product stills ( a long time ago, so pardon me if memory begins to fail ) the most important thing was to make the light really soft. If we could use daylight, either outdoors or from a window, we would use a diffuser to soften the light. Yes it costs in stops, but that is what tripods are for.

We also used to use a Minolta Color Meter III (yes I am that old) because clients were very picky about the colour rendition of their products, and understandably so.

In the absence of daylight, we would only use softboxes, never umbrellas. Personal choice, and many good arguments in support of this have been offered by other contributors. The key thing with softboxes in my opinion is that you want the soft box to be much larger than the subject, using more than one if necessary, and to get that soft light as close to the subject as possible. You don't need to build your own, although it can be less expensive, yet also less portable in many cases. There are many excellent softboxes in the marketplace from a variety of vendors. I presently use Bowens and Lastolite, but you should pick what you like. I do like to be sure that the softbox has both an internal and external diffuser to prevent hot spotting and you will find that most commercial products come this way.

While your 430EX is a fine product, it's Guide Number of 43 is a bit low for the depth of field you are likely to demand for product work. Unless the products are very small, you will likely want something with more power as has been suggested. Yes this will cost money and if you are prepared to invest, my personal recommendation would be a decent starter kit of a couple of flash heads with stands. They will run off the mains or an (usually) optional battery, and often come in a carry case to ease transportation. Go for as much power as you can afford, as you can always reduce the output but not increase it beyond max  Again, and just my opinion, try to go 400 watt seconds at minimum. I also advocate using wireless transmitters because I have never regretted the investment, but in the interim you can use a manual sync cord or trigger the in head slave from a camera mounted flash that is not illuminating your subject.

For this kind of studio work, you are on manual as eTTL however good it is, doesn't add a lot when you get to multiple lights and can be cumbersome. Digital allows you to make buckets of test shots and varying exposures so you get what you really want. A good flash meter can help a lot, but you can get by without it, so long as you have the time to experiment.

I would close back on the subject of colour. Unless you have the facility to do a custom white balance at time of shoot, shoot in RAW mode, with WB set to flash or cloud depending on your source and include a proper grey card in some images to allow you to get the proper WB in post processing. I also choose to include a ColorChecker Passport in each lighting configuration shot so I can perform colour checks in post processing. If your client is not picky about colours, you can skip this.

So in summary, getting to great product shots is doable with what you have and some very basic kit, but if this is something you will want to grow with, here's the save and buy list (or at least the basic framework)

AC Powered flash head kit with 2 heads, stands etc 400ws or higher
Head mountable softboxes of the largest size you can manage (bigger is softer)
ColorChecker Passport (incorporates both colour check panel and grey card)
Flashmeter (the Sekonic family is excellent so invest in one that does flash as well as incident and reflected light)

Others will have different opinions. This is my own. Make the decision that best suits you.

Doc


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## iggyotis (Aug 17, 2011)

docchevailer thank you so much!! I really appreciate you taking the time to write that all out. this was pretty much the exact set up I used last weekend for the shoot and thanks to a lovely guy at Calumet for picking out these products for me. I was wondering whether they were the right ones but they obviously were now that you have confirmed it Thankfully the client was happy with the work so they want to proceed with more shoots so it looks like I'm going to buy the set up for this purpose. Everything seemed to go well but there was still lots to learn and improve on.

Here are some shots from the shoot, before and after, and I would love any feedback, pointers, recommendations on how to improve for the next shoot. Bare in mind this is the first time I have ever used lights or even been in a studio and yes I was taking a risk not having any experience but the client is a friend who took a chance on me. 
http://www.uberlin.co.uk/images/test.jpg

I did have a few issues/questions I had from that shoot that I'm hoping you might be able to help with as well...

I didnt use a grey card in the shots so yes getting the right white balance ion post production was a bit of a nightmare. Purchasing the colour passport would be able to resolve this as I take a shot with this in the scene and then am able to get a profile from this which can be applied to the rest of the images...have I got that right?

If I change the intensity of the flash heads do I use this colour passport again to make sure the correct white balance is achieved for this new set of images?

the lens I used was a 100mm f2.8 macro and it was about 2 meters away to get the whole chair in the shot. I had my settings on Manual, f22 (to get the max sharpness) and my shutter speed seems to be around 1/8....in hindsight I was using the meter reader incorrectly. I was telling me to use that shutter speed when I set my f stop to 22 but what I should have done was to reduce the power of the lights (they were on full) to try and get my shutter speed to 1/250 which was what the guy at calumet said to get. Have you got any recccomnedations on correct setting to use for this type of work. Maybe I shouldnt have had the f stop at 22, but maybe more around 11-16 and then I would have again been able to reduce the power of the light?

An issue I seemed to come across was that I would put the chair in focus and then take a shot, the stylist would then move the blanket and when I took the shot again the blanket seemed to be out of focus which I couldnt understand as I had the f stop to 22 I thought there would be a large area of focus/sharpness. I think I should have been judging how far my lens was away from the subject and take that into consideration...is that correct?

Some of the shots looked a little flat I thought...have you any idea how I could lift them a little? I was using grids on the softboxes which the guy at Calumet said would help but maybe I should have reduced the power on one light a little more so there was a little more shadow to add some depth? I quite like these shots on this site so I'd love to achieve this if possible...
http://www.uberlin.co.uk/images/test2.png
the light seems to much whiter, is this down to correctly preparing for the white balance with the grey card at the beginning and fixing this in post production?

so yes LOTS to learn and improve on so any help and advice you can give is much appreciated.


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## leGreve (Aug 17, 2011)

iggyotis said:


> docchevailer thank you so much!! I really appreciate you taking the time to write that all out. this was pretty much the exact set up I used last weekend for the shoot and thanks to a lovely guy at Calumet for picking out these products for me. I was wondering whether they were the right ones but they obviously were now that you have confirmed it Thankfully the client was happy with the work so they want to proceed with more shoots so it looks like I'm going to buy the set up for this purpose. Everything seemed to go well but there was still lots to learn and improve on.
> 
> Here are some shots from the shoot, before and after, and I would love any feedback, pointers, recommendations on how to improve for the next shoot. Bare in mind this is the first time I have ever used lights or even been in a studio and yes I was taking a risk not having any experience but the client is a friend who took a chance on me.
> http://www.uberlin.co.uk/images/test.jpg
> ...



Were you shooting to a computer or to card? Most of the time I just grey out on the background if I know it's white. Find somewhere where it isn't completely blown out.
But of course a grey card would do the same thing for you.
In my case I'm shooting straight into CaptureOne Pro, controlling all aspects from there.

If the lights are good quality you shouldn't worry about color change in case of intensity change. Some lights will go warmer on the low end, but again, it shouldn't be that much. At least not something you can't fix in post.

1/250... don't know why, I see no need to go above 160 or 125 with still life. With a high aperture you wont get any noticeable constant light in at those speeds. I wouldn't choose below F16 on white outs. I always end up on either F16 or F22. But again you have to know if you lens can handle the high F stop without going soft. I don't think the expensive Canon Ls have too much of those problems though.

1/160 and F16... can't go wrong (unless you have an annoyingly large object like a bed or something hehe... then you should go technical camera).

The sharpness issue... hm, one small thing to remember is: find the front plane of the object that is supposed to in focus, and then go a little further. When taugh about technical camera, we were always told to go 2/3 into the object.
In case of the chair I would probably aim point sharpness around the center of the left most leg. That should render the chair overall sharp.
If you still need a little more, take a step back (aroud 30cm or so) and that will give you a little more.

More to come... have to get off this train xD

More: I've attached a schematic of my daily setup. I think the shots you came out with are rather good. Your client should be happy. You are right though that the second link you provided has some flat shots on it. Try and turn down the fill light a little... 

Also cudos for taking time to make the towels look nicely styled. A lot of people don't spend the time needed to make sure the towels are all flat and even. Cardboard pieces are your friend


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## iggyotis (Aug 18, 2011)

Hi legreve again thank you for all your comments and help...
so i was shooting straight to a computer but not sure what you mean by:
"Most of the time I just grey out on the background if I know it's white. Find somewhere where it isn't completely blown out."
You mean you grey out the background in photoshop?

Also what is "technical camera"?? never heard of this before so if you could clarify that would be great

Regarding sharpness - once I find the 2/3 point in should I have the lens on manual focus and just leave it there? Or when the next product comes in do you focus again? I'll have a practice next time but I just couldnt understand why some shots seems to be out of focus but maybe I was pointing too far back and the focus plane wasn't hitting the object?

Thanks for the schematic as well!!..this really helps me see how to position mine next time...few questions, what is a "soft lamp"? For the alternative how do I use the reflector with the soft lamp? I understand that the diffuser (would this be a sheet of musilm for example?) goes between the lamp and the table but not sure where I position the reflector.

Just to note, that second link is not my shots...those were ones that I thought looked quite good as the light was so white and bright whereas mine (first jpeg)  seemed to look a little dull and flat maybe...any ideas how they achieve this? Is it more powerful lights maybe, or just have one light stronger than the other to get a bit more shadow?


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