# So I really stepped into it....



## jdramirez (May 6, 2014)

So I'm a member/participant on Facebook of my local photography club. A woman who is a novice asks what can she do to improve here photos of her daughter who is a comparative weight lifter. The woman said she has a Canon t3.

So I proceed to give an honest critique. Focus looks off here, try using a tripod and live view focus, the guys in the background are distracting, try either slimmer depth of field or move so they aren't as visible, have something in the foreground that is characteristic of the sport and blue it out, maybe do a long exposure with second curtain flash so there is movement... 

There was a portrait where the subject was on the left side of the image looking left and I said to frame it differently so the open space of the photo is in the direction she's looking....

And boy oh boy did I start something.

This is what I heard... I can't copy and paste on my phone, but the gist was be positive. I was positive. I was positive that I have good advice.

Then I heard... put some examples... So I did of a basketball shot where the ref was blurry in the foreground, and a softball shot where the catcher was blurry in the foreground... And the response I receive is that it was too distracting. Ok sure... busy foreground aren't someone's cup of tea... but it is a widely used technique. 

Then I put up some toy model to explain the concepts about depth of field, live view focus, etc. And the gist of that response is it was an embarrassment to photography. 

They aren't just throwing the baby out with the bath water, they are putting the baby in a blender so it goes down the sink easily. Oh my.

So I came here to rant... because while I don't care about the group, just like here, seeing different images do inspire.


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## mackguyver (May 6, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> Facebook


Isn't one of the main concepts of Facebook to make people less anonymous so they don't attack each other ???


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## jdramirez (May 6, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > Facebook
> ...


Is it? I thought it was too see who from high school got fat.


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## jdramirez (May 6, 2014)

I'll put up the photos that are an embarrassment to photography when I get home...


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## mackguyver (May 6, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> I'll put up the photos that are an embarrassment to photography when I get home...


Look forward to seeing those!


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 6, 2014)

Its just a fact of life, people may like the images the way they take them, and many like / want the entire depth to be in sharp focus. They can also be sensitive to criticism, even though they asked for it.

Its ok, if they like them, isn't that what counts?


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## jdramirez (May 6, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Its just a fact of life, people may like the images the way they take them, and many like / want the entire depth to be in sharp focus. They can also be sensitive to criticism, even though they asked for it.
> 
> Its ok, if they like them, isn't that what counts?



The original lady hasn't publicly said a peep. And I don't care if she uses my suggestions or not. But I wasn't attacking her, I was actually doing as asked... which is... how would I make the resulting images better. And I didn't say she needs to get a 5d mkii, a 300 mm L f2.8, studio lighting, etc. 

I think people are way too sensitive. I'm a softball coach and practically every other game someone is crying. Hey... do it right and you won't get yelled at. Well... instructed.


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## dcm (May 6, 2014)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Walk into an art museum - some things will catch your eye, others won't (but will catch other people's eye). My wife and I gravitate towards different sections.

I never assume I have the same definition of beauty as someone else. My daughter and I will take decidedly different photos of the same subject - mine are more technical, hers more artistic. I am an engineer, she is an artist. If she asks my advice I have to focus on what she is trying to achieve, not how I would do it for my style. 

When I act as a consultant in business I find it often works to understand things from their perspective first. When asked such an open question my standard response is usually "It depends." In a situation like this I would ask a few questions before offering advice. What they were trying to achieve? What do they like and dislike about their photos? What do they wish they could change. That gives me a better basis for answering their question in their terms and help them improve what they are already doing. Sometimes I find it better to provide the advice as questions to soften the tone. Have you considered using depth of field to better isolate your subject from the background? 

The other big issue, particularly with beginners, is TMI. As an engineer I can easily jump into the details. This works fine with a peer, but not so well with a person at a different skill level. It's usually best for me to offer one or two things to try out first to help them progress from where they are. More than that and they are often overwhelmed. If they like my first comments, they will come back for more advice later.

Responding in a forum is a whole other matter since there are many different definitions of beauty, photography styles, and skill levels. Some may be fine with the advice and find it helpful. Others not so much. It really comes down to knowing the audience really well and addressing everyone, not just the OP. This is something we all struggle with, even in this forum.


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## AcutancePhotography (May 6, 2014)

Don't really see a reason to rant. Don't worry too much about what other people do and you will be happier in life. So she did not take your advice. It was advice not a command. Don't dwell on it. So other people in the club don't agree with your advice. Don't sweat it. 

"So I did of a basketball shot where the ref was blurry in the foreground, and a softball shot where the catcher was blurry in the foreground" 

Blurry objects in the foreground is a common technique. I am not sure how common blurry people in the foreground are. I think that many people would find that distracting. Especially people more interested in the "documenting the event" type of photograph as opposed to the artistic composition type. It can be done and done well. It can also be a distraction that pulls the eye from the subject.

I try to avoid putting blurry people or words in the foreground as I find them distracting.  Other objects can be blurred in the foreground for a nice effect. 

But in any case, getting back to your experiences with this photography club people, remember the two rules in life

1. Don't sweat the petty stuff
2. Don't pet the sweaty stuff.


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## Menace (May 6, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > I'll put up the photos that are an embarrassment to photography when I get home...
> ...



Lets see those images!


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## jdramirez (May 6, 2014)

I'm home. I get to upload before I am coerced into yard work. 

Here's what I said about this image:

I like clean backgrounds... and while isn't always possible, if you can account for the foreground/background in the set up for your shot, it will make a difference.


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## jdramirez (May 6, 2014)

Here's the 2nd.

Same shot... but with a water bottle and directv remote in the background. As I'm shooting at a shallow depth of field, the bottle and remote become blobs of color and aren't as noticeable and distracting from the main subject. I'd prefer they not be there... but if given the opportunity, I don't really wanna see them even if they are there. As many of us know, depth of field is based on a few factors... distance from your subject, aperture, focal length, and crop v. full. Shooting wide and cropping will result in a greater depth of field than zooming to 250 or 300 (which are common ef-s zooms) and filling the frame. Though, as a quick counterpoint to shooting at the tele side with those lenses... they are variable aperture which gets smaller the further you zoom... which increases the depth of field and counteracts the focal length


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## jdramirez (May 6, 2014)

and finally...

The image is following the rule of thirds, focus is on the eye (though I think I missed and it is on the eye brow), using live view, using manual focus, using a tripod, using a wide open aperture... I didn't use a flash mostly because Shipwreck wasn't moving so 2nd shutter wouldn't have done didly... nor high speed sync... though i kinda want to do a silhouette... Maybe tomorrow... maybe tomorrow.

And here is the comment about being an embarrassment to all things photography.

Well, here's my response Joe. These action figure images are an embarrassment and if I were you wouldn't hold them up as an example of anything even remotely related to good photography. This page represents the local (sic) Camera Club and I think we can do better than this.


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## jdramirez (May 6, 2014)

I thought I was being informative... helping a newb in the ways of depth of field and proper focus techniques using her gear... little did I know that I was belittling the sanctity of the world of photography. If I only had known...


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## jdramirez (May 6, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> 1. Don't sweat the petty stuff
> 2. Don't pet the sweaty stuff.



I like the line, though I've seen a multitude of gals at the gym...


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## Menace (May 6, 2014)

Thanks for sharing - you are NOT an embarrassment to Photography! Sometimes our best intentions go astry. 

Personally, I tend not to critique on FB or online but do invite those people to book a one to one session with me (for a fee) and receive my advise!


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## agierke (May 7, 2014)

local photo clubs are often the worst place to get innovative, thought provoking and open minded discussion about progressing photographic technique.

they are often run by long time amateurs who's skill and experience plateau well below an advanced, well versed professional. i have found that they tend to exist only to slap each others backs and boost the egos of whoever is running the show.

i've run across a number of them in my area and i avoid them like the plague...

not to be overly harsh, i'm sure there may be some good ones out there...but as a rule of thumb i wouldn't put too much stock in them at all.

this community far exceeds the experience one can get from a local camera club imo.


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## wickidwombat (May 7, 2014)

agierke said:


> local photo clubs are often the worst place to get innovative, thought provoking and open minded discussion about progressing photographic technique.
> 
> they are often run by long time amateurs who's skill and experience plateau well below an advanced, well versed professional. i have found that they tend to exist only to slap each others backs and boost the egos of whoever is running the show.
> 
> ...



good summary, also don't forget everyone on Facebook is an expert at everything...


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## Menace (May 7, 2014)

wickidwombat said:


> agierke said:
> 
> 
> > local photo clubs are often the worst place to get innovative, thought provoking and open minded discussion about progressing photographic technique.
> ...



Anyone who can take a half decent selfie on FB is a 'photographer'.


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## jrista (May 7, 2014)

wickidwombat said:


> good summary, also don't forget everyone on Facebook is an expert at everything...



My motto is similar, but different:

_*Just forget Facebook!!  *_

;D ;D ;D

@JD:

Facebook, like most other social networks online, is a cesspool. It doesn't matter what goes in, everything that comes out is covered in sh*t. I was one of the early members of Facebook within a month or so after it came online, back when MySpace was THE place that EVERYONE was...and everyone gave you a quizzical look when you said "I'm on Facebook!" These days...I honestly wish I'd never registered my account. I no longer have any personal info on there. I've denied access to my facebook account to most everything, I've eliminated every game that somehow became linked into it, etc. I only use it for occasional updates about my photography and a very few other things. I'm also on twitter...it's pretty much purely about my photography, and that is just done automatically when I update my WordPress blog.

If this all happened on Facebook, I'd just completely forget it. I think your demonstration images with the figurine were excellent and very explanatory. The advice you gave was solid. The problem with people these days is more often than not, they already think they are experts at whatever it is they think they are experts at...when they ask for advice, they aren't looking for advice...they are simply looking for someone to reinforce their already-formulated and overly inflated opinion of themselves and their skill. I think you got sucked into one of those inverted vortices where yes means no and "Help me" really means "Assert my own opinion of myself...verify me, so I can feel good!"

Bleh. Facebook. BARF.


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## Sporgon (May 7, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> Well, here's my response Joe. These action figure images are an embarrassment and if I were you wouldn't hold them up as an example of anything even remotely related to good photography. This page represents the local (sic) Camera Club and I think we can do better than this.



;D. ;D



Well you know what to do there then: give that lot a wide berth 

I thought your last picture was a very good example of how to make a picture more pleasing to the eye.


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## Maximilian (May 7, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> and finally...
> 
> And here is the comment about being an embarrassment to all things photography.
> 
> ...


JD, I think, my initial response to them would be: “Stop yelling! Prove it!”
And I think, can understand your emotions and anger about this. You put energy and passion in you explanations. And this is what you got… 
But with a little more distance I would say, it’s just a waste of oxygen and energy.
So let it go.

IMHO you did quite a good job in teaching and showing your way to improve the pictures and I really enjoyed your representative example pictures. 
I suppose I wouldn’t have done this in the same situation, although I also like sharing knowledge. 
Maybe you should have asked a few more questions to know which way to go, as dcm explained before. 
Now take a deep breath, take all the other good advices here into account, when it comes to a similar situation and try to make it better or more pleasing for you the next time. 
But please, if someone else is asking you again, still feel your passion of sharing your knowledge, because this time he or she is surely more willing to learn.


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## jdramirez (May 7, 2014)

agierke said:


> local photo clubs are often the worst place to get innovative, thought provoking and open minded discussion about progressing photographic technique.
> 
> they are often run by long time amateurs who's skill and experience plateau well below an advanced, well versed professional. i have found that they tend to exist only to slap each others backs and boost the egos of whoever is running the show.
> 
> ...


Much of what you say rings true. Most of what is put up there is wide angle landscape... which isn't my favorite so I don't bother commenting. If you don't have anything nice to say... and I pretty much do the same here. But if someone ASKS, what would you do or what did I do wrong... I have thoughts that I'm willing to share. It doesn't mean that I'm right, but I have thoughts... do with them what you will.

They do have meeting, that I never attend, and they do have group outings, that I never attend. Paying $100 to go see the inside of a ghost house doesn't really appeal to me. I can see the inside of my house for FREE. And unless I have guaranteed a 1 on 1 sit down interview with the ghost... it really seems like a stupid waste of time. But I digress.

I think I am going to opt out. I had a whole mess of unwritten rules placed upon me:



> ...a place to encourage and gently direct someone by posting one (not many) comment about how you think a photo can be improved. Then let the rest of your ideas go.
> 
> But even before you do that, please begin to post some of your own photos (not of toys for examples) to show you are serious about being a productive member of our FB page. We have many members who do not post photos but neither do they pontificate about knowing more than the rest of us.
> 
> ...



So evidently answering someone's question in detail is being a know it all. And only one suggestions... ok... how about get stuff in focus because blurry images are bad images... but no. Deep breath...

It's my own fault really. I suggested the foreground background thing... and I posted examples... and they said they didn't like them... which is fine because I wasn't in love with them either... but then I posted pro examples from Getty that showed basically what I was showing and evidently the 6 images I put up are 5 too many. Ugh. Stupid unwritten rules.


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## mackguyver (May 7, 2014)

Those are the worst photos I've ever seen and you should give up photography *AND mail me all of your gear*, immediately     

Obviously, I'm kidding and as the saying goes, no good deed goes unpunished. You tried to be helpful by posting conceptual photos and the thanks you got was a bunch of crap in return.

I'm with agierke on his comments about local photo clubs. There's one where I shoot the most and they snob me like you wouldn't believe. I entered their photo contest, thinking it was for the National Wildlife Refuge (NWR), not their club, several years ago and a bunch of crappy photos beat mine. The funny thing is that the same 3 or 4 people "win" the contest every year. Then, I publish a photo book of the NWR and offer to give the NWR book store copies at cost to help them raise money, and after following up about 5 times, they finally say that it's "not suited for their demographic" and then I realize the "photo club" runs the book store, too. 

When you cross a "club" with "social" media, I guess this is the unfortunate result.


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## jdramirez (May 7, 2014)

I'm going to need a young priest and an old priest to exercise these demons that occupy space in my photos. 

The worst part of it is that Shipwreck hasn't been played with in about five years... And he asks how his photos went and I just don't have the heart to tell him...


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## jdramirez (May 7, 2014)

jrista said:


> If this all happened on Facebook, I'd just completely forget it. I think your demonstration images with the figurine were excellent and very explanatory. The advice you gave was solid. The problem with people these days is more often than not, they already think they are experts at whatever it is they think they are experts at...when they ask for advice, they aren't looking for advice...they are simply looking for someone to reinforce their already-formulated and overly inflated opinion of themselves and their skill. I think you got sucked into one of those inverted vortices where yes means no and "Help me" really means "Assert my own opinion of myself...verify me, so I can feel good!"
> 
> Bleh. Facebook. BARF.



I'm my own biggest critic. I know when, why, and how badly I screw up. The wife usually says not to worry about it... but I take the error so much to heart that I'll never forget that circumstance. Learn from your mistakes... And as with all things photo related, only show the good images.


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## RustyTheGeek (May 9, 2014)

*Sounds like you are trying to achieve the impossible... get accepted into the "cool kids club" in Junior High.* 8)

From what I've read here so far, you should just bow out gracefully and forget they ever existed. They are legends in their own minds. You stand to gain very little from that association and they don't appreciate your input anyway. 

Whenever I join something like this, I never want to be the smartest guy, in fact I want to be just a few steps above the dumbest guy. That way I will be able to learn a lot from others. In your case, you are so far ahead of the others that you'll never learn anything and they obviously don't want to learn from you. So, no point in staying with that club, eh?

Oh, and thanks for sharing!! It helps remind us of the pitfalls of some situations like this. :


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## jdramirez (May 9, 2014)

RustyTheGeek said:


> *Sounds like you are trying to achieve the impossible... get accepted into the "cool kids club" in Junior High.* 8)
> 
> From what I've read here so far, you should just bow out gracefully and forget they ever existed. They are legends in their own minds. You stand to gain very little from that association and they don't appreciate your input anyway.
> 
> ...



I think my issue with the group is I was never WOWED by what they shared... so I didn't... I don't way to say respect... because that is wrong... but I didn't defer to them the way they would expect me to. And I don't really share that many images because they are mostly of my kids or other people's kids (portraiture/action/sports)... so they didn't have any reason to hold me in high regard... So there's that.

I'm going to let the smoke blow over... I'm going to be snarky which is my default mode anyway... and then I'm going to excuse myself... without much fanfare. 

Like you... I really like not being the smartest person in the room... though at times it feels as though I'm looking for my bachelor's while the people talking are working on the 3rd phd... which is fine... but maybe I get lost in the translation to undergrad speak. 

And thanks for listening... it is good to vent.


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## Menace (May 9, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> RustyTheGeek said:
> 
> 
> > Like you... I really like not being the smartest person in the room... though at times it feels as though I'm looking for my bachelor's while the people talking are working on the 3rd phd... which is fine... but maybe I get lost in the translation to undergrad speak.
> ...


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## mackguyver (May 9, 2014)

Menace said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > RustyTheGeek said:
> ...


You better stay away from me, then because I know *everything*, and I've decided to change my username to "*Omniscient*".

Then again, I might be kidding ;D

I try to pass along my knowledge, but try not to shove anything down people's throats and hopefully I'm successful, but some people just like to talk $h!t to make themselves feel important.

Also, I saw this on FStoppers today and thought of this thread: 
Things You MUST Know About Groups on Facebook


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## Menace (May 9, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> Menace said:
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> > jdramirez said:
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Thanks for the link oh Omniscient One - some good tips in there


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## dcm (May 9, 2014)

Menace said:


> mackguyver said:
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> > Menace said:
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Agreed. Especially the tip "Thanks for the feedback, greatly appreciated." ;-)


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## scottkinfw (May 13, 2014)

What you have here is a person who doesn't want a critique. She wants blind acceptance and accolades. Don't sweat it. Take a look at the site "uglyhedghog" same kind of stuff. You give good feedback and get attacked by trolls.

Scott



jdramirez said:


> So I'm a member/participant on Facebook of my local photography club. A woman who is a novice asks what can she do to improve here photos of her daughter who is a comparative weight lifter. The woman said she has a Canon t3.
> 
> So I proceed to give an honest critique. Focus looks off here, try using a tripod and live view focus, the guys in the background are distracting, try either slimmer depth of field or move so they aren't as visible, have something in the foreground that is characteristic of the sport and blue it out, maybe do a long exposure with second curtain flash so there is movement...
> 
> ...


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