# Canon Actively Testing Third Party Sensors [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 26, 2015)

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<p>Usually around the time of a DSLR announcement, there’s talk about Canon using a third party sensor in the camera. We have always dismissed those rumors and sure enough, the announced camera comes with a Canon sensor.</p>
<p>We’re being told that Canon is actively testing a third party full frame sensor in a DSLR. Along with the third party sensor, they’re testing the same camera with Canon made sensor.</p>
<p>After <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-develops-aps-h-size-cmos-sensor-with-approximately-250-megapixels/">Canon’s recent development announcement of a 250mp sensor</a>, it’s obvious Canon is not getting out of the sensor business altogether, but I suppose it’s possible that some non flagship products could see a third party sensor. We don’t know the business advantages of using a third party sensor, but we’d imagine it would lower the cost of development.</p>
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## Chaitanya (Oct 26, 2015)

they should have done this a long time back.


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## dolina (Oct 26, 2015)

Sony sensor please!


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## pj1974 (Oct 26, 2015)

This is a CR2... interesting... I really like a lot about Canon's sensors... however yes, in some aspects there are benefits that some other sensors do have.

I just know that having a monopoly is generally a negative thing for consumers in the long term...

Let's see... I think Canon could pull out some amazing technology from their R&D yet...

Paul


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## Maximilian (Oct 26, 2015)

It's good to hear that they're doing so. 

Whatever they chose, they do it knowing all the facts.

(I cannot imagine, them not doing such comparissons in the past - at least rev.eng. sensors for improving their own development)


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## Random Orbits (Oct 26, 2015)

I hope that Canon continues to develop its own sensor technology. It may not be the best decision in the short term, but I think it's the right call long term. With Sony buying Toshiba's sensor business, who is left? Nikon and Pentax are held hostage by when/how Sony/Toshiba makes its best sensors available. Wonder why Nikon is still using a 36 MP sensor and not the newest round of sensors found in the A7 series? Canon still lags in low ISO DR (gap is closing very slowly), but at least it has the freedom and capability to introduce something new and different (i.e. 50 MP sensor).


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## tcmatthews (Oct 26, 2015)

According to CanonWatch part of the rumor is the desire to sell off its sensor fab. Sensor fabs are expensive and can only turn a profit at volume. Perhaps Canon has decided to go fabless. I doubt it. 

More than likely this is a transitional thing. I think the DISC chips need a major architecture upgrade to push high-speed serial devices (USB3, etc) and 4K video. Or they cannot meet expected demand and need a fab upgrade. So some cameras will get 3rd party chips in the transition. Many of us have been wanting a Fab upgrade and going to 3rd party could increase Time to Market of cameras while transitioning. 

Also Canon could continue to develop its own sensor technology and have others manufacture it.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 26, 2015)

tcmatthews said:


> According to CanonWatch part of the rumor is the desire to sell off its sensor fab. Sensor fabs are expensive and can only turn a profit at volume. Perhaps Canon has decided to go fabless. I doubt it.
> 
> More than likely this is a transitional thing. I think the DISC chips need a major architecture upgrade to push high-speed serial devices (USB3, etc) and 4K video. Or they cannot meet expected demand and need a fab upgrade. So some cameras will get 3rd party chips in the transition. Many of us have been wanting a Fab upgrade and going to 3rd party could increase Time to Market of cameras while transitioning.
> 
> Also Canon could continue to develop its own sensor technology and have others manufacture it.



I received the same email about the sensor thing, though what I posted came from someone else. I'm not sure about selling or splitting off the sensor fabrication. Sony is splitting off the business, so there must be a good reason to do it for them


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## pedro (Oct 26, 2015)

*Is it likely to see that in an upcoming 5DIV/x?*
Maybe they even equip the 1DXII with one of these...;-)


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## luminaeus (Oct 26, 2015)

It could be the light meter. That's also a sensor, after all.


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## sanj (Oct 26, 2015)

BUT BUT BUT..... There is nothing wrong with Canon sensors.......


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## JohanCruyff (Oct 26, 2015)

Canon is already using third party sensors on various G models. 

Their 1" sensors rank approximately as good as Canons' Full Frame ones, according to the _indisputable_ DXOMark.


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## keithcooper (Oct 26, 2015)

Of course they are testing other people's sensors... seems pretty obvious?

It fits in with some of the comments from 'interviews' that Canon give every so often

I too received several emails about the same stuff - suggests someone decided it was a slow rumours day ;-)


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## TeT (Oct 26, 2015)

Would hate to give up the higher ISO Low Light performance for a cheaper sensor in the 6DII for.. READY here it comes

5 stop bump when I take pictures in the dark in my closet at 100 ISO... ;D (did I miss anything)


an improvement is always welcomed. Time will tell if that is what we get.


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## Don Haines (Oct 26, 2015)

Of course they are.....

and it is a good bet that everyone else is testing everyone else's sensors too....

It's called, "know your competition"


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## Dylan777 (Oct 26, 2015)

keithcooper said:


> Of course they are testing other people's sensors... seems pretty obvious?
> 
> It fits in with some of the comments from 'interviews' that Canon give every so often
> 
> I too received several emails about the same stuff - suggests someone decided it was a slow rumours day ;-)



It's part of R&D and there is nothing wrong with that. I doubt Canon would use 3rd party sensor in their pro level bodies.


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## George D. (Oct 26, 2015)

I'd say is there any intention Canon to be using next generation Foveon/Sigma. Note Sigma SD1 is 46Mp APS-C dSLR... Sony is also moving towards the direction, has released a foveon-like patent in June.


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## MintChocs (Oct 26, 2015)

It might not surprising given the flatline of growth in most countries. Cheaper to buy in than to invest plus you get to shut up all the moaners on the forums! ;D


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## tomscott (Oct 26, 2015)

Well Canon are making advancements.

The 7DMKII sensor has a lot of improvements over the 5DMKIII, colour noise is a lot lower! Grain is also very natural. The sensor has a lot of good improvements but because it hasn't surpassed what sony is doing its been left in the dark.

That 50mp sensor is impressive along with its crop variant in the 7D, the DR might not be as good but its certainly surpasses normal usage its not often I push the 5DMKIII that hard and the 7D and 5DSr seems like it betters the 5DMKIII in all areas but very high ISO. Im content tbh I'm not worried cannon has everything I need right now. I think it also does for a lot of people but because there is better on the market people are tempted.

Sony aren't currently a genuine alternative for me if they continue down the same road, the first sony mirrorless camera I bought as I was interested was rebranded as a different branch within a year. With the variety of subject I shoot sony doesn't have a product that is suited to them all, more general shooting. You can't use them for fast action and rely on them like the 7D and 1D series the A6000 doesn't even touch either, you cant rely on them in low light because of focus unlike the 5DMKII, A7RII can't currently replace my 5DMKIII for that etc etc So wedding, event sport (motorsport) and wildlife my main subjects sony doesn't offer a stable platform for any of them. If you are shooting generally, portraits, documentation, street etc its a really completing alternative. But for how long? Until they change the direction like the possibility of dropping their DSLR line.

Canon has all my areas covered and until they don't… Then I will have to think about it.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 26, 2015)

George D. said:


> I'd say is there any intention Canon to be using next generation Foveon/Sigma. Note Sigma SD1 is 46Mp APS-C dSLR... Sony is also moving towards the direction, has released a foveon-like patent in June.


Sigma calculates the resolution of Foveon sensor using a different mathematical  ... Each pixel is counted three times, once for each color.

In fact the 46 megapixel Foveon sensor has only 15 megapixel.


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## RGF (Oct 26, 2015)

Like to see Canon use Sony's 42MP (or slightly lower res version) in the 5D M4.

I would say very unlikely but my wish.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 26, 2015)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> George D. said:
> 
> 
> > I'd say is there any intention Canon to be using next generation Foveon/Sigma. Note Sigma SD1 is 46Mp APS-C dSLR... Sony is also moving towards the direction, has released a foveon-like patent in June.
> ...



+1 - Sigma's attempt to win the MP war by lying. 

Incidentally, some time back Canon had a patent for a Foveon-like sensor.


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## George D. (Oct 26, 2015)

If Nikon is using Sony sensors I doubt Canon will ever do the same. It's a matter of differentiation.


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## crashpc (Oct 26, 2015)

George D. This doesn´t make much of sense to me.
If they needed to differentiate so much, they wouldn't make Sony RX100 competition with the same sensor, and then another products with the same sensor. They wouldn´t go 24Mpx for their APS-C sensors, but stay at 18 or go to 32-36Mpx. They could even pretend that they are not selling cameras, but //add some other random object//

It is the same blind shooting as it was before 7D II - "They could not use higher resolution sensor for lower end camera. After 7D II, they did it twice actually!

Market is rapidly changing in this sector, and there is no clear roadmap to be made. Things can turn pretty quickly. Don´t expect long term patterns in companies behavior. These act and response in operational manner.


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## unfocused (Oct 26, 2015)

Sooner or later Canon is going to have to retire the 18mp sensor from the original 7D. It doesn't surprise me at all that they might be auditioning replacements. As the original post states, they aren't likely to use a third party sensor for their flagships, which I take to mean the 1Dx, 5D and 7D.


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## Maximilian (Oct 26, 2015)

RGF said:


> Like to see Canon use Sony's 42MP (or slightly lower res version) in the 5D M4.
> 
> I would say very unlikely but my wish.


I can understand your intention. But this only could have happened with the 5DS/R. 
Canon will definetly not make a 5D4 so close to the 5DS/R.

Maybe your wish will be fullfilled with the 5DS/R Mk II... (within some 3 to 5 years...).


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## snakama (Oct 26, 2015)

I bet all this talk is canon trying to save on manufacturing, the third party must be another sensor manufacturer, tasked to create a canon designed sensor, then canon comparing against the in house created sensor


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 26, 2015)

TeT said:


> Would hate to give up the higher ISO Low Light performance for a cheaper sensor in the 6DII for.. READY here it comes



If anything it would be a more expensive sensor since they wouldn't just dump another in house old sensor off their old sensor plant in the 6D2 then but would be paying a little extra for someone else's sensor.
Although it might be less expensive than upgrading their manufacturing to be able to make a sensor as good or better than someone else's.
In either scenario I don't see anything about losing performance.

Look at A7R II sensor. Where is the poor high iso performance? Look at A7S/A7S II at high ISO? How is that giving up high iso? where it the poor video performance (it can read 4k video without line skipping OR binning plus do it with oversampling at aps-c crop size plus off a very high MP sensor, what canon sensor can do that?)?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 26, 2015)

RGF said:


> Like to see Canon use Sony's 42MP (or slightly lower res version) in the 5D M4.
> 
> I would say very unlikely but my wish.



Yeah if they did that and took full advantage of the 4k video it can produce and let it hit 6fps FF (or at least in a crop RAW mode 6-7fps), I'd dump the A7RII and 5D3 in a second and go with that.
I'm still not sure that it likely at all though. Oh well. At least the A7RII is awesome for some video and more static landscape/general scenery stuff for now, although not having to drag both a7RII and 5D3 around would be nice and save money and then you'd always have the best of both world's at once, but hey at least there is this great split option now. And if Canon won't combine the Nikon, I think Nikon will very soon, sure their lenses and UI are worse and all but might be worth it, although expensive to swap that fully and again the UI and lenses, but if Canon makes it clear they won't do it next year it's also an option. Anyway, at least there are various nice options now, some like a7rii+canon pairing even let you stick with your same lenses .


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## Aglet (Oct 26, 2015)

TeT said:


> Would hate to give up the higher ISO Low Light performance for a cheaper sensor in the 6DII ..



That may have been true in previous generations but there's little difference in hi ISO performance across the brands. If anything, the recent exmor types perform better at hi ISO by a small margin from the data I've looked at.
However, things _can_ change in Canon's favor with longer exposure times at high iso... sometimes.


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## pedro (Oct 26, 2015)

Maximilian said:


> RGF said:
> 
> 
> > Like to see Canon use Sony's 42MP (or slightly lower res version) in the 5D M4.
> ...



I would like to see Canon come out with a 5Dish mirrorless 12 MP cam, not as fast and kicking as the 1 DX but a cam built and ready for extreme astro and lowlightscape use...okay, this one might have less bells and whistles than the a7sII and surely no 4K video...


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## rs (Oct 26, 2015)

unfocused said:


> Sooner or later Canon is going to have to retire the 18mp sensor from the original 7D. It doesn't surprise me at all that they might be auditioning replacements. As the original post states, they aren't likely to use a third party sensor for their flagships, which I take to mean the 1Dx, 5D and 7D.



Does anyone else make a suitable 1.6x crop sensor? I guess it would be possible to use a 1.5x sensor and use just 88% of the sensor area and resolution, but this doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me.


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## 3kramd5 (Oct 26, 2015)

dilbert said:


> using the Sony product allows for a shorter time tomarket than waiting for Canon's internal sensor business to produce a part.



Not necessarily; they would need to fundamentally redesign their signal chain. It's not plug and play, and nobody on the outside can credibly say what is quicker to adapt. 

I could be wrong (since I'm feeling too lazy to look it up, so feel free to correct me), but it seems like Canon turns out sensors more frequently than it turns out DIGIC chips.


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## Deleted member 375103 (Oct 26, 2015)

This is probably a Halloween thing from Canon, who wouldn't freak out with a Franken-Canon DSLR having a 3rd party spooky-sensor!


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 26, 2015)

A 3rd party sensor makes sense for a slow selling model that does not have enough sales to justify the very high cost of development. A 1 series camera falls in this class. The Rebels usually share the same sensor, and the 5D series sells well. The 6D using a different sensor does not make much sense to me, it should be using the same as the 5D series.

In any event, the 1D MK XI design should have long been locked up by now, the same for the 5D MK IV and possibly the 6D.

I'm sure that designs can be changed, but it can cause a year or more delay.

With Sony now operating the sensor business as a separate entity, they should be willing to sell the latest tech to anyone. However, there are other fabs that produce sensors. Canon might very well farm out the sensor fab business to a outside company.


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## Nininini (Oct 26, 2015)

dolina said:


> Sony sensor please!



Would much rather see a CMOSIS sensor like Leica uses.


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## x-vision (Oct 27, 2015)

If this rumor is true, the 6DII is the only candidate for having a Sony sensor, IMO.

I don't see Canon using a Sony sensor in upper-tier models: the 1DXII, 5DIV, or 5DSII.

It's possible, though, that the 1DX-II and 5DIV will have the same new Canon sensor - say 28mp - with 4K video and whatnot.
And in that case, Canon could put the 24mp Sony sensor from the A7II into the 6DII.
Doing that will allow them to better differentiate the 6DII from the 5DIV.
Also, it will probably be cheaper than making a separate 6DII sensor.

If not that, I can't t see Canon using a Sony sensor.
Like I said, it's very unlikely that the other FF models will ever use a non-Canon sensor.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 27, 2015)

Aglet said:


> TeT said:
> 
> 
> > Would hate to give up the higher ISO Low Light performance for a cheaper sensor in the 6DII ..
> ...



Yeah I guess if you do astro or really long high iso exposures for whatever then canon can be better at high iso, otherwise nothing to worry about and you might even end up a little better for all you know.


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## PhotographyFirst (Oct 27, 2015)

Some people think Canon going to Sony for all their sensor needs will kill innovation. I completely disagree. 

Sony would be Sony's main competitor when it comes to convincing photographers they need to upgrade their gear. Canon would be sending some serious cash their way which could possibly help R&D for new tech. Current cameras can last for 10+ years of use, so there needs to something other than the reason of "my camera died, I need a new one" for people to upgrade. Canon by themselves can probably only afford to do major upgrades to their core tech and fabs every 15 years or longer. That doesn't cut it for the users who desire significant increases in some way or other.


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## sanj (Oct 27, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Canon has only 1 flagship model, the 1DX. Or maybe 2 if you count the 5Ds/R. The 5D, 6D, 7D are not flagship.
> 
> As Canon have already moved to Sony sensors for the G series cameras with a 1" sensor, maybe this gave Canon some insight as to what could be achieved with 3rd party sensors: better than the competition using the same and about the same as the next step up from Canon.
> 
> ...



Flagship is just one. No?


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## RGF (Oct 27, 2015)

George D. said:


> If Nikon is using Sony sensors I doubt Canon will ever do the same. It's a matter of differentiation.



Nikon and Canon can both use Sony sensors - just not the same sensor.


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## siegsAR (Oct 27, 2015)

Canon will always be the one with the biggest gain in this. Sony is just about getting even.


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## sigh (Oct 27, 2015)

I think people are forgetting one of the main benefits of Canon not using Sony sensors, especially for videographers, namely DPAF. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understood sensors had to be manufactured in a certain way for DPAF to work. Sony sensors aren't manufactured with this feature and can't be unless Canon licence their patents to them. This is never going to happen.

Personally I'd be against Canon using a third party sensor, like the Sony, if it meant losing DPAF.


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## jasny (Oct 27, 2015)

sigh said:


> I think people are forgetting one of the main benefits of Canon not using Sony sensors, especially for videographers, namely DPAF. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understood sensors had to be manufactured in a certain way for DPAF to work. Sony sensors aren't manufactured with this feature and can't be unless Canon licence their patents to them. This is never going to happen.
> 
> Personally I'd be against Canon using a third party sensor, like the Sony, if it meant losing DPAF.



DPAF is more than 2 years on the market, but we still even don't know if Canon plans to use it on FF sensors at all...


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## jasny (Oct 27, 2015)

dilbert said:


> jasny said:
> 
> 
> > sigh said:
> ...



Those are low Mpix Super-35 sensors for video, not high Mpix FF sensors for stills...


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## StudentOfLight (Oct 27, 2015)

jasny said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > jasny said:
> ...


IIRC, STM is a complimentary technology to DPAF. So why did Canon start making full frame STM lenses like the 24-105 IS STM?


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## jasny (Oct 27, 2015)

StudentOfLight said:


> jasny said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



And 40/2.8 is either STM for FF. And available almost for 3 years... And still no DPAF FF...

BTW: I use my STM lenses without DPAF and I'm quite happy with them


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 27, 2015)

Nikon buys sensors from Sony. Does Nikon depend on that? If Sony decides to raise prices (eroding Nikon's profits), Nikon can source sensors from, say...Toshiba, as they've done already. But now Sony is buying Toshiba's sensor division. Does Sony have other acquisitions planned? What competition in the 'large' sensor space will remain?


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## pedro (Oct 27, 2015)

If I were Canon, I would hook on that STARVIS tech...
http://www.canonrumors.com/sony-shows-off-new-high-sensitivity-sensor-called-starvis/
sounds quite intresting.


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## FunkyCamera (Oct 28, 2015)

Hopefully not any of those junk sony sensors. I want my next Canon to have a proper sensor that takes great quality photos instead of high fake scores by hoax benchmark companies.

I guess they could be looking at a sony sensor for some of the low end bodies if sony can supply them cheap enough.


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## Frick74 (Oct 28, 2015)

For me it's important that the dynamic range of the sensors in the canon bodies will improve. If it's done with canon sensors > perfect. If it's done with other brand sensors > perfect again. I'm a canon pro for years, but I will probably change to Nikon or Sony if the dynamic range of the Canon sensors isn't going to change. So please, Canon, make me (and others?) happy!


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## optikus (Oct 29, 2015)

Hello,

I don't think that there were any problems if Canon decides to use third party sensors for those products they identify to show certain cost risks. They design their products and the required features and then look who can supply fitting sensors, if Sony or someone else is not relevant. The markets wants to have the expected quality of a Canon-camera together with a good price. And as the statistics of Canon shows, they have serious problems with this. And with missing products. So I can understand when they source out development issues as e.g. new sensors are and reduce cost getting more ressources for the key-segments in the market, as to name mirrorless-products for the mass market. The classical compact camera in the low price segment is a niche product this time and the small sensors for them are no key technology as well.

J.


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## StudentOfLight (Oct 29, 2015)

jasny said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > jasny said:
> ...


Canon doesn't release full frame bodies every couple of months. The 6D was probably too late in it's development to include DPAF. Since then, the only new full frame is the 5Ds/R line, which Canon decided was not gonna be video oriented (no headphone-jack, no clean HDMI-out)


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## Don Haines (Oct 30, 2015)

StudentOfLight said:


> jasny said:
> 
> 
> > StudentOfLight said:
> ...


Agreed!

We are talking about LONG development cycles on Camera bodies.... The 5D4 project probably started before the 5D3 was released....


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## PhotographyFirst (Nov 2, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > jasny said:
> ...


I wonder what the real turn around time is for Canon to go from concept to production models shipping? Probably differs depending on how drastic the new model deviates from the previous model, such as the 5D3 vs 5Ds.


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