# The EOS-1D X & f/8



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 22, 2011)

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<strong>Clarification</strong>

<a href="http://www.birdsasart-blog.com/">Arthur Morris</a> has posted the reply he received from Chuck Westfall in regards to the f/8 issue with new Canon EOS-1D X.</p>
<blockquote><p>â€œAF is unavailable on the EOS-1D X if the maximum aperture reported to the camera through the electronic lens mount is smaller than f/5.6. This is a lower specification than previous EOS-1 series DSLRs. On the plus side, consider the fact that with most f/4 lenses including the 400 DO, 500/4L IS and IS II, and 600/4L IS and IS II, you now have 41 cross-type AF points plus color and face detection, whereas you had no cross-type points and no color or face detection during AF with previous EOS-1 series DSLRs using the same lenses, not to mention a significantly wider AF coverage area from left to right.â€</p></blockquote>
<p>via [<a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_1Dx.html">NL</a>] & [<a href="http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php/90630-Canon-EOS-1D-X-Digital-Camera-Body-Details?p=731924&viewfull=1#post731924">BPN</a>]

 </p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## neuroanatomist (Oct 22, 2011)

Great. Canon can have 3M produce little Canon-branded, residue-free pieces of tape, sized to cover the three contacts on the TC. With a brand label, they can charge about $5 each, for a tidy profit.


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## 1982chris911 (Oct 22, 2011)

Well, looks like many Birders/Wildlife Guys will stay with the MK IV, if they need 1000mm or 1200mm for their subjects. I really don't know if it was the best decision of Canon to skip the f8 center AF point with the new 1D X. After all Wildlife/Bird Photographers are surely a larger portion of the customers of such equipment.


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## DavidRiesenberg (Oct 22, 2011)

Ouch. It does seem that Canon somewhat ignored the wildlife photographers with the X. First the sensor without enough MPs to compensate the loss of the crop factor and now the exclusion of the TC friendly AF. 
I wonder if the face detection works on animals and birds.  ???


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## wockawocka (Oct 22, 2011)

This may soon be addressed if the 7D2 is APS-H and the 1D4 is still available.


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## jacobpays (Oct 22, 2011)

Could the problem possibly be addressed by the DO TC's that have been patented and mentioned on this site?


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## nikkito (Oct 22, 2011)

we should wait until the 1D X mk II


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## John Thomas (Oct 22, 2011)

Generally, according to my kind of shoots, I like the specialisation of the machine. I think that leaving out the F/8 points will be payed back in terms of speed and accuracy of the AF engine. 

Can anyone confirm this? Or perhaps there are other reasons to leave out the F/8 point(s)?


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## cbphoto (Oct 22, 2011)

I look at the Canon lens line-up and the only problem I see is when an extender is used. No Canon lens has a maximum aperture smaller than f5.6. Last century, I bought the 1.4x and 2x FD extenders and found the rendered IQ was lousy with all the recommended lenses. I used them only when absolutely needed, and never with pleasure. Although the EF extenders are supposedly better, I wouldn't use them; they're still a stopgap tool to be used when nothing else will work.

Besides, I can always march 5 miles out on the tundra with this or this. ;D

Instead of extenders, why not utilize an APS-C sensor camera? The 800mm f5.6 lens becomes a 1280mm f5.6 lens with zero loss in IQ.


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## Justin (Oct 22, 2011)

The MTF charts of the new super teles paired with the version III 2x and 1.4x extenders generally show little to no image degradation. 

Also, although I understand your point about gaining more reach with an APS-C, it's just not true that using a 1.6x focal multiplier sensor equates to zero loss of IQ when compared to a 35mm full frame or aps-H sensor. 



cbphoto said:


> I look at the Canon lens line-up and the only problem I see is when an extender is used. No Canon lens has a maximum aperture smaller than f5.6. Last century, I bought the 1.4x and 2x FD extenders and found the rendered IQ was lousy with all the recommended lenses. I used them only when absolutely needed, and never with pleasure. Although the EF extenders are supposedly better, I wouldn't use them; they're still a stopgap tool to be used when nothing else will work.
> 
> Besides, I can always march 5 miles out on the tundra with this or this. ;D
> 
> Instead of extenders, why not utilize an APS-C sensor camera? The 800mm f5.6 lens becomes a 1280mm f5.6 lens with zero loss in IQ.


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## cbphoto (Oct 22, 2011)

Justin said:


> The MTF charts of the new super teles paired with the version III 2x and 1.4x extenders generally show little to no image degradation.



I include the loss of 1 or 2 stops of light a degradation of image. If there's in increase in ISO to maintain a fast shutter speed, then there's image degradation.

Shooting action at f8? No thanks. 



> Also, although I understand your point about gaining more reach with an APS-C, it's just not true that using a 1.6x focal multiplier sensor equates to zero loss of IQ when compared to a 35mm full frame or aps-H sensor.



The optics are identical in both cases. And no f8 action work! w00t! 8)


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 22, 2011)

The optics are identical, the sensors are not. FF sensors deliver higher total resolution and better noise performance. 

Many times when shooting with long lenses, narrower apertures are needed to get the entire subject in focus. Just sayin'.


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## UncleFester (Oct 22, 2011)

Probably marketing at play.

Not a do-it-all camera, but buy two cameras that will do it all. Sort of like the 5DII/7D scenario.


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## aznstuart (Oct 22, 2011)

Pardon my ignorance, but why won't there be an autofocus past f/8? I currently have a 60D, if I set the aperature at F/11 to take a lanscape picture with my Canon f/2.8 17-55mm, will it also not have autofocus?


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## UncleFester (Oct 22, 2011)

cbphoto said:


> Shooting action at f8? No thanks.



What about panning sports @1/30 sec? Bright daylight iso 100 f/8 sometimes will not work.


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## AprilForever (Oct 22, 2011)

Chuck's answer seems like a cop-out to me... Many are the times before I got my 300 2.8 I wished that my 300 f4 would autofocus with the TC 2x (and the taping trick never would work!). 

The exchange Canon offered here (more AF points and what-not) just doesn't seem to cut it...


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## lol (Oct 22, 2011)

aznstuart said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but why won't there be an autofocus past f/8? I currently have a 60D, if I set the aperature at F/11 to take a lanscape picture with my Canon f/2.8 17-55mm, will it also not have autofocus?


The AF works with the lens wide open. For about everything other than current 1D bodies, that requires the lens to be f/5.6 or faster. Third party lenses push that to f/6.3... when you set a smaller aperture, that only takes effect when you take the shot. The focus is done wide open (f/2.8 or whatever).


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## Stu_bert (Oct 22, 2011)

I would be very surprised if by the end of 2012 there is not another Canon body which can AF at f/8 - it was one of the decisions for me skipping the 5D MK II and getting a 2nd-hand 1Ds MK III...

Out of interest, has anyone seen a comparison between a TC 2x and Genuine Fractals?

Over at Deep Green Photography there's a simple comparison on an existing 500mm f/4 IS between the MK II and MK III TCs. The 2x looks good, especially at f/11, but of course it depends on your preference...


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 22, 2011)

AprilForever said:


> Many are the times before I got my 300 2.8 I wished that my 300 f4 would autofocus with the TC 2x



You're not alone. Last year, on top of a mountain in New Hampshire, I ran into Lillian Stokes (who's pictures fill a popular birding guide), and she mentioned that although she has a very nice 500mm f/4L IS, most of her shooting on her 1D IV is done with a 300mm f/4L IS and a 2X TC, because the combo gets her close to 800mm-equivalent, has AF, and is light enough to carry on hikes up to mountaintops.


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## Lee Jay (Oct 22, 2011)

cbphoto said:


> Shooting action at f8? No thanks.



I shoot VERY high speed action (200+mph model aircraft) at f/9 all the time. It's a perfectly practical thing to do in direct sunlight.

This R/C plane was going over 200mph, and this was shot at f/9, ISO 400 and 1/2000th.

http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/aircraft/aamairshow2011/20D44665.jpg


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## arttocrma (Oct 23, 2011)

Lee Jay said:


> cbphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Shooting action at f8? No thanks.
> ...



that's 70-200 + 1.4 tc and 20D

Max wide open is f/5.6 (if your lens is 70-200 f4)

You can use any aperture

and still sunny (can use low iso with high speed shutter)

but in wildlife that want wide aperture and high ISO with high shutter speed

i think f/4 lens with 1.4 tc is the less image quality for wildlife photographer

this only my opinion.


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## NXT1000 (Oct 23, 2011)

no focus at f8, wow this is a step back.


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## Lee Jay (Oct 24, 2011)

arttocrma said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > cbphoto said:
> ...



Actually, that's 70-200/2.8L IS + two 1.4x TCs (one of them isn't visible to the lens and therefore doesn't end up in the EXIF data).


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## Justin (Oct 24, 2011)

NXT1000 said:


> no focus at f8, wow this is a step back.



Yup. Hard to slice this any differently. Even Westfall, a Canon rep can't explain away this backward step (the other being the MP downgrade, despite the better explanations for that decision).


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## AprilForever (Oct 24, 2011)

Justin said:


> NXT1000 said:
> 
> 
> > no focus at f8, wow this is a step back.
> ...



I bet poor Chuck feels bad about this!


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## Quackator (Oct 24, 2011)

The basis for AF metering has been widened, which will increase precision and 
speed dramatically. This comes with the dowside that a certain minimum aperture 
is needed. I am not sure what the percentage of wildlife photographers with long 
lenses *AND* converters is among the 1D series user, but I'm willing to bet that
the improvements in AF speed and precision will be welcomed by more people than 
there are people weeping about f=8.0.


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## NXT1000 (Oct 24, 2011)

wockawocka said:


> This may soon be addressed if the 7D2 is APS-H and the 1D4 is still available.



that is impossible, the low end slr will always be APS-C, 1.6x. which support the EF-S lens.


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## NXT1000 (Oct 24, 2011)

aznstuart said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but why won't there be an autofocus past f/8? I currently have a 60D, if I set the aperature at F/11 to take a lanscape picture with my Canon f/2.8 17-55mm, will it also not have autofocus?



When you view in the viewfinder, the aperature is always widest possible, F2.8 in your 17-55mm, that is why it is so bright, even if you set the exposure to F11. When you press the trigger, the mirror goes up and lens aperature will set to your setting F11 and take the picture, it goes back to f2.8 again after. Ready for you to take the next shot. 

But if you put extender, the widest aperture will no longer be f2.8, but f5.6 for 2x extender.


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## NXT1000 (Oct 24, 2011)

Justin said:


> Yup. Hard to slice this any differently. Even Westfall, a Canon rep can't explain away this backward step (the other being the MP downgrade, despite the better explanations for that decision).



Why would they do it? face recognition is a plus?? wider cross sensor is a plus?? That make up more than ability to use extender? I cannot understand canon. They said the native ISO is 105K, right, give me a break, if i can use 6400 ISO on any situation, i will be so happy already. Meanwhile, we still do not know what nikon and sony up to, canon domination of sport photography is truely coming to an end. Not to mention this is a vapour release, marketing exercise, we have to wait 1/2 year for the release, when can people actually buy that? 1 year later? Because it will goes first to journalist for olympic in London.


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## xps (Oct 24, 2011)

This weekend I joined an 2 days lasting workshop for motorsportphotography. The "hardware" was one of the hot topics there. The workshop was sponsored by canon and nikon. We could test some of the better lenses for sportsphotography including the camerabodys. It was very interresting. 
In the Canon-Group the tutors from Canon were not really able to highlight their new !-Dx product for sportsphotography for normal users. They recommend the usage of this camera with an fix focal lenght lens _without_ an converter/extender! They did not see a reason to extend the AF working at an max f=8 even at another coming camerabody. "Buy an better lens... If you can buy this body, buy an 4.0 L lens with 500 to 600mm..." was the answer 
Almost all visitors shook their heads. 
The Nikonians laughed when they heard this. Nikon was presentig themselves as a corporation that is more and more looking to become an specialist for sports- and wildlife photography.


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## traveller (Oct 24, 2011)

xps said:


> This weekend I joined an 2 days lasting workshop for motorsportphotography. The "hardware" was one of the hot topics there. The workshop was sponsored by canon and nikon. We could test some of the better lenses for sportsphotography including the camerabodys. It was very interresting.
> In the Canon-Group the tutors from Canon were not really able to highlight their new !-Dx product for sportsphotography for normal users. They recommend the usage of this camera with an fix focal lenght lens _without_ an converter/extender! They did not see a reason to extend the AF working at an max f=8 even at another coming camerabody. "Buy an better lens... If you can buy this body, buy an 4.0 L lens with 500 to 600mm..." was the answer
> Almost all visitors shook their heads.
> The Nikonians laughed when they heard this. Nikon was presentig themselves as a corporation that is more and more looking to become an specialist for sports- and wildlife photography.



Sorry, I didn't realise that the D3 series actual had f/8 AF sensors? If Nikon fit an f/8 capable AF system to the D4, then maybe this argument will hold water. I seem to remember that Nikon did the same sort of thing to their users when they made the D3 full frame, having claimed for years that DX was the new 35mm. 

The problem with the 1DX is that Canon have not release (nor breifed their own representatives of) a definitive explanation as to why they dropped the f/8 capability. This has lead to speculation as to whether there was a geniune technical reason (i.e. a trade off), or whether it is just Canon being mean and trying to sell 1D Mk4 upgraders longer lenses. Personally, I believe it is more likely to be the former reason; the f/8 focusing capability was a great marketing feature over the Nikon pro bodies and I can't see that they'd drop it when everything else about this camera seems to be focused upon topping the D3s.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 24, 2011)

traveller said:


> The problem with the 1DX is that Canon have not release (nor breifed their own representatives of) a definitive explanation as to why they dropped the f/8 capability. This has lead to speculation as to whether there was a geniune technical reason (i.e. a trade off), or whether it is just Canon being mean and trying to sell 1D Mk4 upgraders longer lenses.



Just to be a little cynical, I do think there's a technical reason, but the engineers may have been 'discouraged' from developing a solution. 

I may have said this already, but the 1D X is the first 1-series body to use the 'dual cross' AF points (f/2.8 'x' sensor superimposed on an f/5.6 '+' sensor). That may be too crowded for them to include an f/8-sensitive line. It may also simply be the increased density of the points. 

I agree that many 1D-series customers could/should just 'buy a better lens' but the problem is that when you combine the loss of 1.3x crop with loss of f/8 AF, you can no longer even achieve AF at all at equivalent focal lengths that were previously possible. For example, a few months ago I bumped into a guy shooting tiny birds with a 1D IV, 1.4x extender, and an 800mm f/5.6L IS - that's functional AF at a FF equivalent of 1450mm. With the 1D X, the longest possible focal length with AF will be 840mm (600/4 + 1.4x) - that's over 40% shorter, and the extra 2 MP don't come anywhere close to compensating.


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## 1982chris911 (Oct 24, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> I agree that many 1D-series customers could/should just 'buy a better lens' but the problem is that when you combine the loss of 1.3x crop with loss of f/8 AF, you can no longer even achieve AF at all at equivalent focal lengths that were previously possible. For example, a few months ago I bumped into a guy shooting tiny birds with a 1D IV, 1.4x extender, and an 800mm f/5.6L IS - that's functional AF at a FF equivalent of 1450mm. With the 1D X, the longest possible focal length with AF will be 840mm (600/4 + 1.4x) - that's over 40% shorter, and the extra 2 MP don't come anywhere close to compensating.



From what I see the 1D X will be the best multi purpose 35mm Camera out there ... But (and that is a big BUT) it lacks the specialization of the 1D IV for sports and Wildlife. One could only guess that the next generation of APS-C sensors, which will probably be available in 2012/2013 can fill this gap. The 1.6 crop would then be again on the same level as the MK IV or even better for people who need really long focal ranges (1000mm+). 

What I could imagine is kind of a more professional APS-C cam either being the 7d MKII or they introduce something like a 4D which would be a pro body APS-C. 

Canon skiped the APS-H line, which makes sense as the 1D MK IV was the only body using this, so it is efficient to drop it, as they could standardize more - especially the low volume pro lines - which is after all the idea behind the 1D X. 

Now the rather big question is what will be in the 5d Mk III and I see three options here: 
same sensor as 1D X or same as current 5d MKII with updated AF and several other better specs (kind of a 5d II + 1Ds III + 7D mix) or a new sensor in this case a high resolution 24-36 MP one (for Architecture, Stills and Landscape use mainly like current 5d MKII) but still with mediocre AF and several other shortcomings compared to the 1D X. After all they MUST justify the possible 3000-4000$ price gap. Secondly they will/could split that line and do some more APS-C PRO line (4D) ... 

So I guess in the next year or two we will see a completely different lineup in the single digit bodies 1D-7D and my own guess is that there will be a Pro APS-C (4D Option)


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## xps (Oct 24, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> I agree that many 1D-series customers could/should just 'buy a better lens' but the problem is that when you combine the loss of 1.3x crop with loss of f/8 AF, you can no longer even achieve AF at all at equivalent focal lengths that were previously possible. For example, a few months ago I bumped into a guy shooting tiny birds with a 1D IV, 1.4x extender, and an 800mm f/5.6L IS - that's functional AF at a FF equivalent of 1450mm. With the 1D X, the longest possible focal length with AF will be 840mm (600/4 + 1.4x) - that's over 40% shorter, and the extra 2 MP don't come anywhere close to compensating.



Yes, indeed, this is the problem I suffer from. IÂ´m just an hobbyphotographer, no professional, who is able to stay in a camouflage tent for hours or days. So I often need more distance than an professional photographer to take the same shots. The second thing is, that itÂ´s an hobby for me - so I will not spend 12000 Euros for an 800mm Canon lens. At the workshop (I wrote before) the photographers all told me, that the companies are all beginning to seperate the drivers from the riders. Telelenses with an optimal mix between good lightperformance and an long focal length will be not brought on the market. These will be cash cows, but at all, it will be a deficit for the companies.


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## RexGRP (Oct 25, 2011)

The issue is with using F8 lenses, not high-speed lenses set at f8. One example is a 500 f4 lens with a 2x converter.


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## hambergler (Oct 26, 2011)

Lee Jay said:


> arttocrma said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



Does the camera properly read the aperture with 2 TCs?
Since you are using the f2.8 you are under f8 anyway since the camera will always use the fastest aperture (f5.6 in this case)


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## weixing (Oct 27, 2011)

Hi,
No AF at F8 for 1D X??  Then why Canon come out the new and improved Extender EF 2xIII when their new 1D X cannot AF at F8?? Is that a joke from Canon especially the description in Canon website for Extender EF 2xIII:


> "Designed to extend a lenses focal length by a factor of 2x, the redesigned Canon Extender EF 2X III delivers optical performance on par with the finest Canon super telephoto lenses."


 So now only the EF 400mm F2.8L in Canon super telephoto lenses can AF when using the new Extender EF 2xIII with the new 1D X?? Just wonder what Canon is thinking??

Anyway, I think some of my birding friends using Canon will be quite unhappy especially they get the new 2x TC III for their 600mm F4L and now the new 1D X cannot AF at F8??? 

Have a nice day.


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## MazV-L (Oct 27, 2011)

A crazy thought, but would it be possible that Canon are developing and planning to release a new 2x converter that reduces an f4 lens to f5.6 rather than f4- f8 especially for the 1DX, is this technically possible? :-\


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## PeterJ (Oct 27, 2011)

MazV-L said:


> A crazy thought, but would it be possible that Canon are developing and planning to release a new 2x converter that reduces an f4 lens to f5.6 rather than f4- f8 especially for the 1DX, is this technically possible? :-\


It's not technically possible, it's a basic optical rule that a 2x converter results in 2 stops of light loss.

Edit - just to explain further the 2x extender means that now your lens is effectively only using half the the front area both horizonally and vertically, so it's gathering a quarter of the light or two stops. That's why you also halve the resolution of the lens which has a varying effect depending on the resolution of the sensor.


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## MazV-L (Oct 27, 2011)

PeterJ said:


> MazV-L said:
> 
> 
> > A crazy thought, but would it be possible that Canon are developing and planning to release a new 2x converter that reduces an f4 lens to f5.6 rather than f4- f8 especially for the 1DX, is this technically possible? :-\
> ...


Thanks, for the explanation! Of course this makes sense.


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## weixing (Oct 27, 2011)

Hi,


PeterJ said:


> Edit - just to explain further the 2x extender means that now your lens is effectively only using half the the front area both horizonally and vertically, so it's gathering a quarter of the light or two stops. That's why you also halve the resolution of the lens which has a varying effect depending on the resolution of the sensor.


 No... you still use the full aperture of the lenses... the light gathering capacity is still the same. The lost in 2 stops is due to the increase in magnification... basically longer focal length = higher magnification. When the magnification is increase and the aperture remain the same, the image brightness will be reduce.

Anyway, there is a simple formula for calculating focal ratio: focal ratio = focal length / aperture
Base on this formula 600mm F4 had an aperture of 150mm (600mm / 4 = 150mm), so when focal length is double, the focal ratio is reduce to F8 (1200mm /150mm = 8 ).

Have a nice day.


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