# More 7DII focus problems



## luckydude (Dec 22, 2014)

Disclaimer, I'm not a pro, once in a while I get some good pics but not like a lot of people here. Bokay?

This was a challenging situation for the 7DII, I eventually moved up to ISO 12800. It was a party, dimly lit, all pics were with the Canon 35mm f2 IS. I started with spot focus, eventually moved to using all points, I never found a sweet spot.

It is capable of taking some decent pictures under those conditions, here are the ones I saved:

http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/2014-yunah+scott/index.html

but if you scroll through some of the rejects you can see that it is struggling to focus:

http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/yunah-bad/

here is a good example from my kitchen, why oh why did it focus on the background?

http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/7DII/32.html

At this point I'm wondering if I return this, I want to like this camera but wow, the keeper rate seems low. Extremely low compared to the 5DII (that I also own) and even to the 7DI (I've got that too).

When there is enough light it can grab:

http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/wren.jpg 

is the 7DII, 400mm DO I, 1.4x TC III. I was pretty happy with that pic.

What do you all think? Did I get a bad copy? Am I doing it wrong?


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## ktatty (Dec 22, 2014)

Have you tried micro adjustment on your lens? The picture with the 400 looks sharp- so i wouldn't think you have a bad copy. I have shot the 7d ii and its a great wildlife and sports camera, but it's not at its best with indoor low light shots. I would want a full frame sensor for those situations.


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## takesome1 (Dec 22, 2014)

Using all points how do you know you missed focus? For instance the kitchen pic. The background is the center of your frame. 

Some are just DOF problems not focus.

Some you are picking up the person next to the one you are targeting.

Some are not sharp but it is because of noise.

If you own the 5D II you took the wrong tool for this job anyway. IMO

Do you have a bad copy? Maybe I couldn't tell by this set, I would have to be using it to see how it compares.

Yesterday I was at the lake, a small flock of seagulls standing in the water. I took 10 shots with the 1D IV and had 10 equally sharp pictures to choose from. I put the 7D II on shot the birds, I had 12 sharp pictures out of 20. Of the 12 they all varied. My impression of the 7D II so far is that it is better than the 7D I, better than the 5D II. It is not up to the 1D series. The specs for the 7D II AF system may be great and compare to the 1D x, but if you only believe the numbers Canon marketing has done their job.


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## MonkeyB (Dec 22, 2014)

the camera settings you chose are not really ideal for the situation. 

Tv mode is odd - people at a party are relatively static. further, a shutter speed of around 1/200 or 1/250 would have frozen the subjects more adequately than what i'm seeing listed. IS can only help your movement, not your subject's.

spot metering often requires locking first, on a mid-tone. it seems to me that you have mostly pointed at your darker subjects and so the lighted portion of the frame is blown out. try evaluative/matrix for candids.

in lower light, and without a bounce flash, max aperture pretty much has to be used to keep noise down. all of these should have been at f2. DoF gets tricky if you can't keep a good shooting distance, like when you are using a 35mm prime. a zoom lens would have been easier.

a bounce flash would have made this task a whole lot easier.

most importantly: servo focus is also odd - these people are relatively static, and so one-shot focus would have been better. servo starts with the center point, gives you no beep or visual confirmation, and does not actually focus until you release the shutter. i would venture that your focus problems with this set are due to servo.

hope this helps. someone please correct my errors/omissions.


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## aardvark (Dec 22, 2014)

Lets face it - less than ideal conditions - particularly kitchen shot. Is that a focus issue or camera "shake"...seems like some movement to me (couldn't really see much in focus but some blur indicating movement)


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## weixing (Dec 22, 2014)

Hi,
Here my suggestion:
1) "All points" in your case is not a good choice as you are allowing the camera to select the focus subject for you. You should use single-point AF or AF point expansion and move it to where you want it to focus on.
2) "AI Servo AF" don't work well in low light and the camera might priority speed or focus depend on your "AI Servo AF priority". "One Shot AF" is a better choice and make sure the "One-Shot AF release priority" is on focusing.

Anyway, there is always in some situation that the AF system will not work well, that's why the AF system got so many options available, so that with experience, you'll be able to select the correct settings that give the best result.

By the way, have you read the manual especially the AF Setting guidebook?? If not, you should read it to understand how the AF system work... highly recommended.

Happy shooting and have a nice day.


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## Marsu42 (Dec 22, 2014)

luckydude said:


> here is a good example from my kitchen, why oh why did it focus on the background?



Just because you use a camera with an af system designed to track a bird in flight across the frame doesn't mean you need to let it loose onto your unsuspecting kitchen (the camera, not the bird) 

Do try to shoot in single-point af mode, or even center af with recompose like the rest of us. Unless you're working with ultra-thin depth of field, at least you know where the af will end up ... leaving the decision to the camera makes sense when you don't have time to do it yourself.

But rejoice, you're not the only newbie getting desperate when using a dslr system that's beyond their use scanario. Do start simple, take your time, no good gear replaces knowledge how the optics, the sensor and the af system work. Sorry to point out the obvious here, but maybe someone should :->


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 22, 2014)

Many '7DII Focus Problems' would be better termed '7DII _user_ problems', and that's pretty much true with any new camera released. Mostly, they come down to inadequate experience with the camera, not having RTFM, or expecting it to behave just like the last camera used. 

Others have pointed out specific issues above. IMO, the biggest issue is Automatic AF point selection. The subject of the image should not be chosen by the camera, but by the person holding it. IMO, there's only one situation in which auto point selection is warranted – tracking a moving subject in AI Servo. In that case, the user selects the starting AF point, and the camera then tracks the subject using all points.


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## Steve Balcombe (Dec 22, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Many '7DII Focus Problems' would be better termed '7DII _user_ problems', and that's pretty much true with any new camera released. Mostly, they come down to inadequate experience with the camera, not having RTFM, or expecting it to behave just like the last camera used.
> 
> Others have pointed out specific issues above. IMO, the biggest issue is Automatic AF point selection. The subject of the image should not be chosen by the camera, but by the person holding it. IMO, there's only one situation in which auto point selection is warranted – tracking a moving subject in AI Servo. In that case, the user selects the starting AF point, and the camera then tracks the subject using all points.



+1 and then some. But we still have a thread with the subject line "More 7DII focus problems" which is about as far as some people bother reading before declaring that the 7D Mark II is an unmitigated disaster.


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## awinphoto (Dec 22, 2014)

Steve Balcombe said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Many '7DII Focus Problems' would be better termed '7DII _user_ problems', and that's pretty much true with any new camera released. Mostly, they come down to inadequate experience with the camera, not having RTFM, or expecting it to behave just like the last camera used.
> ...



Completely agree... i came from cameras with lesser focusing system and the first time i picked up my original 7d, i couldn't get in focus shots until i sat down, learned the AF system, and learned how to use it to my advantage... the 5d3 and 7d2 are no different... Using all AF points is only asking for trouble as your asking the camera to read your mind and i'll let you in on a hint... they are terrible mind readers. Even zone focus settings are going to hit or miss for that very reason... I almost always use single point with expansion... It is just better... Tells the camera specifically where you want it to look for focus, and if there's any issues with that point, it can lean on the other points to get that focus. Also it's a good idea to periodically check AFMA on all your lenses... just keeps the camera/lens systems in check...


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## FEBS (Dec 22, 2014)

As also others already mentioned, this seems to be more a user problem then a 7DII focus problem.

I do not understand why the OP is taking most of the pictures at 12800ISO. I even would not do that on a 5DIII. You simply need more light. A fill-in flash is really needed in this situation.

When I look through all the photos I see that he first used spot metering, afterwards partial metering and at last evaluative metering. So the OP tried to solve his problem by changing metering. For that reason I even think he mixes the metering system with the focus system. In a lot of out of focus photos, it seems that he is using ai-servo in combination with all-focus points and that's the wrong choice as already mentioned by others. You need one shot and a single point AF.

This has nothing to do at all with a focus problem !!!


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## monkey44 (Dec 22, 2014)

I'm a certain and anyone that manufacturers occasionally send out a unit that has technical or mechanical issues -- it just happens with mass manufacturing. Can't change that. but I can't believe Canon would send a mass release with a major technical problem inherent in the design.

I'm wondering how many of the folks that bought this 7D2 allow the camera to find focus point as soon as the shutter button is depressed half-way (or use another programed button?) and let the camera find the target???

If you first target your subject -- THEN activate the AF tracking system, the camera will follow your target (provided you also set priority target in the camera first, and not allow crossing targets to acquire) ... As stated above, as much as we might like it, the camera cannot read your mind, and I'm betting in most action shots - whether sports or wildlife - at least "something" (a branch, leaf, sideline coach) sits between the shooter and the target a large percent of the time. As soon as the camera spots a cross-target, it will acquire it and follow it instead.

Think like a rocket scientist -- the rocket will not be very beneficial to a mission aimed at an enemy plane if it suddenly swerves because a bird crosses it's path, and shoots down a pelican. So, the initial target with your focus system should find the target point first -- then, follow it. If we allowed a missile to first guess at its target, we'd be eliminating a lot of friendly humans. so, those of you having a tough time with this AF system, I suggest you at first acquire the target you personally want to hit, THEN let the camera initiate its AF design function. 

I've only had the 7D2 a bit over a month, and not had a lot of time in the field yet (like everyone, our busy time is now, holiday and year end) ... but at first I had a very tough time with its AF system as well, and believed all these claims of faulty equipment had merit as my 7D2 AF was acting odd too. Now, after playing a bit (and needing a bit more playing too), it's my opinion the AF system is truly a beautiful system, and just needs to teach us how to use itself properly.

Before the flame hits -- I know some of you out there complaining about the system are truly correct, especially the more experienced guys, and I expect as a rule, more experienced guys buy a 7D2 and not novices ... So, it stand to reason a few cameras will have manufacturing defects or bugs, and you might have bought one. But I encourage all of you with targeting issues open your minds a bit, and take some time to really, really understand this camera system - it's truly a remarkable piece of technology.

In addition, I'm not suggesting it's "best of the best" for all purposes, and have no wish to compare individual parts of it with other brands (Sony Sensors, for example) -- but as a tool, it certainly does what we need in the field, and that's all that matters in the work world -- hmmm, or the artistic world as well.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 22, 2014)

monkey44 said:


> Think like a rocket scientist -- the rocket will not be very beneficial to a mission aimed at an enemy plane if it suddenly swerves because a bird crosses it's path, and shoots down a pelican.



Or, say I'm trying to shoot that pelican flying by, and a surface to air missile passes through the scene – if I've configured the tracking sensitivity and speed options appropriately, the camera will ignore the missile and remain locked on the pelican so I can continue taking pictures. Of course, with SAMs flying around, ducking for cover or running away might be better choices than taking pictures.


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## Don Haines (Dec 22, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> monkey44 said:
> 
> 
> > Think like a rocket scientist -- the rocket will not be very beneficial to a mission aimed at an enemy plane if it suddenly swerves because a bird crosses it's path, and shoots down a pelican.
> ...


did someone mention DUCKing for cover?


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## pedro (Dec 22, 2014)

good humor found here. made my day. I'll go for that pelican... 8)


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## monkey44 (Dec 22, 2014)

pedro said:


> good humor found here. made my day. I'll go for that pelican... 8)



Yes, laughing is more fun than crying, or complaining, or crabbing. We all need a little of it or we'll go NUTS !!"
On the serious side tho', I'm truly a believer that some of the 'focus issues" with the 7D2 come from the system itself and how it operates. And I really had a tough time with it at first, and couldn't figure out why it focused PERFECTLY on a small leaf half way to my target as the camera moved -- panning -- and it should have stayed on the bird ... and am still not completely engaged with this camera yet. Need more time in the field, of course, like any new equipment, the learning curve ... 

Anyway, was hoping some of those cameras that seem to have the focus issues are really a part of that learning curve -- after the first week, I was reading all the problems and almost sent mine back -- then, suddenly, I clicked in, and now works spot on -- altho', I still need plenty more time out on the trails before it will become auto-routine instead of "think every time". 

Seems like some of the responses here too indicate the 'broken camera' accusations come from experienced guys too that maybe don't want to admit it could be the brain behind the viewer ... and it should never come to that -- because when it does, then it sticks and the camera will always be blamed. There is no reason to think less of yourself or anyone else that needs a little kick in the pants to "get it" ... I was really glad to figure this out and even happier I didn't have to return the camera for repair -- mainly because the problem was with the shooter ( ME  ! )and not the technology - at least I believe that at the moment.

As an aside too - I was shooting / testing / learning it w 70-200 L IS F-4 as well, really sharp and quick-reacting lens ... then I stuck the 100-400 V.2 on it, and it knocked me out - how fast and on-target it is. I mentioned before on another thread the 7D2 and the 100-400 V.2 are an amazing pairing and seem made for one another. Anyone has any doubts about the 7D2 and the 100-400 V.2, sit those doubts on the back burner, because if you pair them up, you are in for a real treat !!


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## ashmadux (Dec 23, 2014)

monkey44 said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > good humor found here. made my day. I'll go for that pelican... 8)
> ...




What does "i clicked in.." mean?

In my test, the Af began to work when set to spot af. Regular Af select was not working at all. The Af on my 6d is spotty at best, but even that beat the pants of the 7d2 tester i had.

It's not worth it, imho.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 23, 2014)

ashmadux said:


> The Af on my 6d is spotty at best, but even that beat the pants of the 7d2 tester i had.



Yeah, my Subaru station wagon isn't the fastest car out there, but it beat the pants off the Porsche I test drove. 

Whatever, bub.


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## ashmadux (Dec 23, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> ashmadux said:
> 
> 
> > The Af on my 6d is spotty at best, but even that beat the pants of the 7d2 tester i had.
> ...



You have added zero the conversation. And youre not funny.

Unlike your nonsense comment, I have the pictures.


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## treytexag (Dec 23, 2014)

MonkeyB said:


> the camera settings you chose are not really ideal for the situation.
> 
> Tv mode is odd - people at a party are relatively static. further, a shutter speed of around 1/200 or 1/250 would have frozen the subjects more adequately than what i'm seeing listed. IS can only help your movement, not your subject's.
> 
> ...



This is good advice I think for me. I took a similar set of party pics, and I was equally frustrated by some of the focus "problems" I appeared to be experiencing. I haven't had a chance to do any more "systematic" testing, but I did go into the menu last night and reset to factory. I also printed out a focus "target" so I can do some testing.

However, I believe some of my problems are exactly as MonkeyB lists here stepwise - at least as I remember from my pic set.

MonkeyB, thank you for methodically walking through some potential camera setting problems - seems like some of the these are spot on for me!!

Trey in Houston


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## FEBS (Dec 23, 2014)

ashmadux said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > ashmadux said:
> ...



Pictures of what? Of the impossibility to get an excellent AF of the 7D2?

That seems to me the same feeling as Neuro mentioned by comparing the Subaru and the Porsche. To be clear, the reason there is the driver, not the car.


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## ashmadux (Dec 23, 2014)

FEBS said:


> ashmadux said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



To be clear, how did you come to that conclusion? Details, please.


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## FEBS (Dec 23, 2014)

ashmadux said:


> FEBS said:
> 
> 
> > ashmadux said:
> ...



When I look at what you are shooting, then I see mostly static subjects (people, landscape,..). I mostly do action photography. I had a low keepers rate in the beginning on the 7D, but only after a lot of testing, experimenting, reading, I was able to increase that rate. After buying a 5D3, I did see that the AF system of the 5D3 was much better then the 7D. I used the 5D3 a lot for action photography just because of the better AF compared to the 7D, even if I only had 6fps instead of 8fps. Then I did buy a 1Dx. My keeper rate there was never low. Why, because I knew the AF system. The 1Dx is a little better then the AF of the 5D3, but behaves the same. When I bought my 7D2 several weeks ago, I knew what I was getting. The AF system is complex, it has a few points more compared the 5D3 or 1Dx, but the different AF settings are almost the same. I never had a problem about missing AF with the 7D2. Why, because I fully understand and have experience with the AF system. No, this is not a camera I would advice to a starter, because there are much better cameras to start with.

The comparing with the cars that Neuro made is just the same. If you are not used to drive a Porsche with manual gearbox and manual clutch and compare that with the car you are used to with automatic gearbox. Then you will decide an hour later that it is to complicated, that he is missing the contact between driver and road, but if you learn to use that car, then you will regret to step in your regular car again.

Don't get me wrong, for portraits and landscape the 6D is much better then the 7D2, but for action, no men, that will be won by the 7D2 when you can drive that car .


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## takesome1 (Dec 23, 2014)

ashmadux said:


> FEBS said:
> 
> 
> > ashmadux said:
> ...



Sometimes people debate specifications and not performance. The two are not the same. While the specifications may indicate a certain level of performance they seldom guarantee it. The specifications are a good salesman tool.

The 7D II has AF specs similar to the 1D x, it doesn't mean it will drive like the 1D x.
The 7D II AF is ok, it is good. It doesn't come close to the performance of a 1D body.

The 7D II I have found several problems in single shot, single point mode. It has a harder time making critical focus on a smaller point than either my 5D II or 7D IV. If you move off of the center point and use a different point your precision goes down.

Given certain circumstances, for instance the type of pictures the OP was taking, a 5D II or 6D may perform better. IMO and experience it will perform better.

The 7D II is a $1,799 body. It is the best value Canon has in a new body. For the price the AF system could be rated as excellent. In a $6K 1D body the AF system would be sub-par and unacceptable.


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## takesome1 (Dec 23, 2014)

FEBS said:


> The comparing with the cars that Neuro made is just the same. If you are not used to drive a Porsche with manual gearbox and manual clutch and compare that with the car you are used to with automatic gearbox. Then you will decide an hour later that it is to complicated, that he is missing the contact between driver and road, but if you learn to use that car, then you will regret to step in your regular car again.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, for portraits and landscape the 6D is much better then the 7D2, but for action, no men, that will be won by the 7D2 when you can drive that car .



Here is the car comparison problem as it relates to these two bodies.
You are comparing cars.
You should be comparing a car to a pickup truck.
An action camera to a stills camera.

I found the 5DII to be more accurate for still photography than the 7D. It wouldn't be beyond possible that the 5DIII or 6D would be more accurate than the 7D II for still photography.


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## candc (Dec 23, 2014)

There are a couple threads running about this at the moment. I went back and checked the AF manual to see what the camera is supposed to be doing with "all points selected" in one shot mode it's supposed to focus on the closest object but in ai servo it starts out on a preselected point (not the closest) and is supposed to track whatever is under that point around the frame. There are some menu settings to change the way that works but maybe part of the problem is that people are expecting the same behaviour when switching from single shot to ai servo?


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## MonkeyB (Dec 23, 2014)

treytexag said:


> This is good advice I think for me. I took a similar set of party pics, and I was equally frustrated by some of the focus "problems" I appeared to be experiencing. I haven't had a chance to do any more "systematic" testing, but I did go into the menu last night and reset to factory. I also printed out a focus "target" so I can do some testing.
> 
> However, I believe some of my problems are exactly as MonkeyB lists here stepwise - at least as I remember from my pic set.
> 
> ...



no worries, man - you're welcome. i'm just a hobbyist but find that once i started shooting in Manual mode, everything started to make a whole lot more sense in terms of how to get repeatable results. if i can readily achieve "acceptable" focus and noise levels without fiddling or hoping to get lucky, then those moments that require good timing can be snapped up without a hassle or the need for good luck.


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## ashmadux (Dec 23, 2014)

takesome1 said:


> FEBS said:
> 
> 
> > The comparing with the cars that Neuro made is just the same. If you are not used to drive a Porsche with manual gearbox and manual clutch and compare that with the car you are used to with automatic gearbox. Then you will decide an hour later that it is to complicated, that he is missing the contact between driver and road, but if you learn to use that car, then you will regret to step in your regular car again.
> ...




What this guy said.

I normally test with still objects or parts of the scenery - signs, patterns, buildings, desk items. It erases the variation in movement. As basic as it gets. The unit was a dud. No big deal, but it would have been a big problem for the canceled shoot.

I havent posted the pictures of the af errors because im not out to attack a camera, thats pointless. 
However at some point ill post some 7d2 long exposure images (spot AF point) along with the 6d comparisons. They wont be anything surprising to those that do FF night photography.


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## takesome1 (Dec 23, 2014)

FEBS said:


> ashmadux said:
> 
> 
> > What this guy said.
> ...



How much experience does a person need with the 7D II to shoot in single point, single shot AF mode at stationary objects? That is about as basic as it gets.


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## monkey44 (Dec 23, 2014)

candc said:


> There are a couple threads running about this at the moment. I went back and checked the AF manual to see what the camera is supposed to be doing with "all points selected" in one shot mode it's supposed to focus on the closest object but in ai servo it starts out on a preselected point (not the closest) and is supposed to track whatever is under that point around the frame. There are some menu settings to change the way that works but maybe part of the problem is that people are expecting the same behaviour when switching from single shot to ai servo?



That's how I see it too -- different setting and choices change what happens ... but it is still a learning curve with a new system. The more times I go out, the more I understand the responses. and it starts getting the shots ...


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## FEBS (Dec 23, 2014)

takesome1 said:


> How much experience does a person need with the 7D II to shoot in single point, single shot AF mode at stationary objects? That is about as basic as it gets.



Oh yes?
You presume that the camera was in single shot AF mode. But where is ashmadux telling that?
What about the presetting of the One Shot AF release priority? is it on Focus or on Release?
Are we outside or inside of the MFD of the lens?
Which lens is used and which single point is used? Not every AF point might be used for every lens, see manual of 7D2.
Is AFMA necessary and done if needed for this lens?
Was there enough light to do a decent AF?

It all seems simple, but if even is mentioned "In my test, the Af began to work when set to spot af. Regular Af select was not working at all." then I have doubts about the knowledge from someone who mentions that Regular AF select was not working at all, which I interpret as AF 65-point automatic selection. How can that work? You don't have any control anymore on the AF at that moment. Might be used for a subject against a flat background like a bird in front of the blue sky. And if Ashmadux is using 65-point automatic selection as the regular AF mode, then a lot of the situation is clear to me !!!

I don't want to tell that the 7D2 is a better camera then the 6D. No, not at all for portrait or landscape because the 6D is a FF, but for action, the AF is better then the 6D. You need to understand al the features of the AF. This is not a camera to start photography.

I've seen lately several photos of "so called" bad AF of 7D2 here on internet, however, they are mostly caused by wrong use of the camera/situation/expectation.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 23, 2014)

FEBS said:


> Is AFMA necessary and done if needed for this lens?



That's a key question. He's obviously happy with his T2i, to the point of claiming it has a better AF than his 7D, his 6D, and the rented 7DII. Clearly, all three of those cameras _should_ have better AF performance, the two 7-series bodies manifestly so. I suspect that his T2i's AF is fairly 'off' in terms of adjustment, but that his lenses are similarly 'off' – the errors cancel out. Those same lenses would require significant AFMA on other bodies, which wasn't done. Thus, for him the T2i is 'better'. To me, it's pretty telling that the only other camera he says has good AF is the EOS M, which has no need of AFMA with any lens.


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## takesome1 (Dec 23, 2014)

FEBS said:


> I've seen lately several photos of "so called" bad AF of 7D2 here on internet, however, they are mostly caused by wrong use of the camera/situation/*expectation*.



Imagine that someones expectation's are not met when they see specifications and reviews telling them they are buying a camera that has the same or better specs than the 1D x. Comparisons are made that it is the 1D x's little brother. You read the specifications and you would even think this as well.

So yes we do see people saying the AF system is bad because they do not know how to use the system to its fullest. That is a common thing all of the time regardless of body.
Then you see the crowd jump in that do not even own the 7D II but debate how great it is based on the specs.

The truth lies somewhere in between.

I pre-ordered my 7D II and received it the monday after release. It is a great little camera for the money. I have been running tests on mine from day 1 to compare.
Better at still shots than my old 5D II, not seeing it. Not loosing as many shots due to missed focus but really not gaining keepers either.
Better than the 1D IV, nope. The precision isn't there. I should be comparing shots for composition not focus.
Better than the old 7D, yes most definitely.

What it is better at than those two bodies, video and live view shooting. I have been contemplating new techniques of shooting to incorporate this to see if I can get better results. I really wish they had put a flip screen on it.


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## AshtonNekolah (Dec 23, 2014)

luckydude said:


> Disclaimer, I'm not a pro, once in a while I get some good pics but not like a lot of people here. Bokay?
> 
> This was a challenging situation for the 7DII, I eventually moved up to ISO 12800. It was a party, dimly lit, all pics were with the Canon 35mm f2 IS. I started with spot focus, eventually moved to using all points, I never found a sweet spot.
> 
> ...



I can tell its definitely a AF selection problem. I see a few sharp images, you will need to control the focus some some have said. The AF system takes some getting use to, I also use a 5d mk II I have no problems with focus, everyone needs are different, your 35 f/2 is more than capable of shooting at 1000 ISO with some good images with very low noise. use single point for sure and move the point around on what you want you should get more keepers.


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## ashmadux (Dec 24, 2014)

I thought we were past the drama.

Not sure what the pot shots will attain, but if it makes you feel good, keep at it. Enjoy, its the holidays after all.



FEBS said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > How much experience does a person need with the 7D II to shoot in single point, single shot AF mode at stationary objects? That is about as basic as it gets.
> ...



Sigh.

"And if Ashmadux is using 65-point automatic selection as the regular AF mode, then a lot of the situation is clear to me !!!"

If you read earlier posts you would have answered some of your own questions. Youre assuming much with your guesswork regarding automatic AF mode selection. 

These posts arent about the 6d. I just happened to have it as a second body that day. Thats it, no mystery behind it. How does this keep getting mixed up. No one is gonna say the 6d has better Af than..well...anything.

Id rather not debate your questions. Some are so elementary its kind of insulting.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Dec 24, 2014)

Every time a high end body is released, a larger than usual number of photographers have issues with autofocus. It happened to me when I bought my 7D after it was announced. It took me a second day of shooting with it to figure out what I was doing wrong (selecting all af points).

Eventually, it gets sorted out. There will be some defective cameras, and some who need to work more at understand how to work the camera features. There are always people who like to tell new users that they should buy the most complex new camera, it can be like throwing them to the wolves. They just want to point and shoot, and expect everything to be in sharp focus. Then we try to help them out to understand what's happening, and people get off track. It still happens every time someone asks for suggestion on a new camera body.


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## weixing (Dec 24, 2014)

takesome1 said:


> FEBS said:
> 
> 
> > ashmadux said:
> ...


Hi,
Not sure, but at least he need to use the correct mode and point or move the selected AF point on the subject he want to focus on. 

For example, a compact camera user just need to point the camera at the subject, see the subject in the camera LCD screen and take a shot, but when he got the 7D2 and try to do the same in Av or Tv mode, he might get 90% of the shot out of focus and he conclude that the 7D2 had focusing issue.

For example, an analog phone user just need to pick up the phone, hear the dial tone and dial in the phone number, but when he got the iPhone and didn't see the dial pad and he conclude that the iPhone had an issue and not usable.

Anyway, what simple and obvious to you doesn't mean it's simple and obvious to everyone... usually more advance system need more knowledge to operate properly even basic task as it's usually provide more controls over the simpler system.

Have a nice day.


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## takesome1 (Dec 24, 2014)

weixing said:


> For example, an analog phone user just need to pick up the phone, hear the dial tone and dial in the phone number, but when he got the iPhone and didn't see the dial pad and he conclude that the iPhone had an issue and not usable.



I never once but dialed a rotary dial phone.
In that respect a dial phone will cause less embarrassment.


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## FEBS (Dec 24, 2014)

ashmadux said:


> Ok, im chastising a bit, but youre batting zeros right now.



Hmm, if that's your your idea. Fine.

But your behavior on several threads on this site is just TROLLING.

So, please don't post anymore as it doesn't bring anything. No answer to OP, only telling what you hear on the internet, telling us what you did find out after testing a camera for a few hours,.. or telling "an experienced photog (I am  )". And if you would believe that it was your unit that was having problems with AF in that situation, then I would not shout that around here and keep on telling people how bad the AF of the 7D2 is, but everything is based on your test unit and your AF knowledge. Yes you might of course tell us that your unit did have a problem but don't generalize it.

My answers are based on the fact that I own and use a 1Dx, a 5D3 and 7D2 continuously. No, I don't know everything but try to learn and understand what people are saying/writing down every day. I see my photos improving the last few years. Why, because I always ask myself what did I do wrong when some other people can take real beauties with the same camera/lens. That improvement in my photography would never have happened if I only blame the camera or lens for every photo that is not good enough to keep.


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## sanj (Dec 24, 2014)

Am I hearing it correct that 6D has better focusing ability than the 7D2?


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## Marsu42 (Dec 24, 2014)

FEBS said:


> So, please don't post anymore as it doesn't bring anything.



This is just the reaction desired by trolls, better use the "ignore this user's posts" option in your settings.



sanj said:


> Am I hearing it correct that 6D has better focusing ability than the 7D2?



Sure, if a superhero uses it. Superheros always get incredible results even from gear with specs that makes it virtually impossible in the first place . And remember: If something went wrong, you need to check your afma :->


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## Don Haines (Dec 24, 2014)

sanj said:


> Am I hearing it correct that 6D has better focusing ability than the 7D2?



The 6D manual has 10 pages for the AF system...
The 7D2 has 111 pages for the AF system.....

The 6D:
11 points
Center: cross-type at f/5.6; vertical line-sensitive at f/2.8.
Upper and lower AF points: vertical line-sensitive AF at f/5.6.
Other AF points: Horizontal line-sensitive AF at f/5.6
Center AF Point: EV -3 to 18
Other AF points: EV +0.5 to 18
AF Point Selection 
(1) Automatic selection
(2) Manual selection


The 7D2:
65-points
all cross-type AF
center AF point is a dual cross-type AF point at f/2.8
EV 0-20
AF Point Selection
(1) Single-point Spot AF (Manual selection)
(2) Single-point AF (Manual selection)
(3) AF point expansion (Manual selection, 4 points: Up, down, left, and right)
(4) AF point expansion (Manual selection, surrounding 8 points)
(5) Zone AF (Manual zone selection)
(6) Large Zone AF (Manual zone selection)
(7) Auto Selection 65-point AF


my vote is the 7D2....


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 24, 2014)

sanj said:


> Am I hearing it correct that 6D has better focusing ability than the 7D2?



Yes, the 6D is better...but still unusable. Only the T2i and EOS M can accurately autofocus, apparently. At least in the 'right' hands...


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## sanj (Dec 24, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Am I hearing it correct that 6D has better focusing ability than the 7D2?
> ...



As they say in American movies: "Houston we have a problem."


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Dec 24, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Am I hearing it correct that 6D has better focusing ability than the 7D2?
> ...


 
FF bodies have generally had more accurate AF (in terms of inches or mm accuracy) than crop bodies. They need it, because the depth of field on a FF can be a lot less. As I recall, AF accuracy is specified based on 1/3rd the depth of field up to f/2.8. 

The number of pages in a manual does not affect AF accuracy, there are no settings for it, its built into the size and spacing of the elements on the AF sensor.

The 7D MK II has a sophisticated AF system, and is much better at tracking subjects, has fast AF speed, and much better when focusing at off center points, but when comparing accuracy on the center point, I'd expect to see the 6D win because in in or cm, 1/3 the depth of field is a much smaller number on FF.

From TDP http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Photography-Tips/Canon-EOS-DSLR-Autofocus-Explained.aspx

"*Precision, invisibility, and other intangibles* 
As mentioned above with the precision discussion, there's a modified type of AF point called a 'high-precision' point, which focuses within 1/3 of the depth of focus of the lens at max aperture, vs. the normal precision spec of within 1 depth of focus. Usually, the high precision point is the center point, and it operates in high-precision mode with an f/2.8 lens on most bodies, or an f/4 lens on 1-series bodies. The 1D X is an exception in two ways - it has five high-precision points in a central vertical column, instead of just one, and they require f/2.8 unlike previous 1-series bodies. "


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## takesome1 (Dec 24, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > sanj said:
> ...



That is the real problem with the 7D II AF system, it is salesman hype and bloated specs. 65 points sure makes it sound like it is on par with a 1D x, but lost in the text is the 5 precision points versus 1.

Does the 7D II really need 65 points? Probably for sales but I have a suspension that it could have been designed to perform just as we'll with far fewer.


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## Marsu42 (Dec 24, 2014)

takesome1 said:


> Does the 7D II really need 65 points? Probably for sales but I have a suspension that it could have been designed to perform just as we'll with far fewer.



I don't know how the 7d2 performs with single af points in real life, but having a high point density isn't only good for multi-point af tracking, but for shooting w/o recompose.

If you can have the af point exactly where you want it given the current picture composition, you get the maximum resolution (as you don't have to crop w/o recompose) or loose precision (because of recompose). Esp. if your af target is off the center, this is an advantage to ff cameras with all af points clustered.


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## Don Haines (Dec 24, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > sanj said:
> ...


Although the center point of the 7D2 is a dual cross point, not a single cross like the 6D


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## luckydude (Dec 25, 2014)

Hi the guy who started this thread here. Sorry I've been absent, been sick as a dog, you just don't want to know. Coming out of both ends, nuf said, bokay?

Some more info/thoughts. First I have a 5DIII, not II, not that that would matter in this case. Second, the reason I took the 7DII and the 35mm is I knew that I wanted about a 50mm lens and I had loaned out my 50mm f1.4. So either it was too wide with the 35mm (in your face) or 85mm 1.8 (too long), or the 24-105 (too dark). I'd heard good things about the 7DII at high ISO so I went with that. (As an aside, I'm inclined to send the 35 f2 back and get the Sigma, bokeh is less of an issue for me, low light is a big issue. YMMV.)

As for flash, I wasn't a pro, I was an invited guest. I hate flash, it's annoying, I like candid shots. So no flash for me.

As for Tv, AiServo, half of that is my bad. I'm reasonably good at shooting sports, there it is center point, spot metering, Ai Servo, Tv. I use that because I need a certain shutter speed to capture the action, I float aperture rather than ISO because the 5D floats it into a bad space. 

But yeah, I shouldn't have been on Ai Servo. Did I mention there was booze at this party? 

All that said, I don't own a 1Dx, what I've heard is that the 7DII has the 1Dx AF system. Maybe I'm naive but I expected more. So am I to take away that the only place you use all 61 AF points is BIF?

Seems to me that most point and shoots make better choices than the 7DII did. Did you see that one where it had my wife front and center and focussed on the background? I can go through the non keepers and find a ton more like that. If Ai Servo is the culprit, yeah, ok, my bad. But I'm skeptical.

I'm inclined to repeat some low light tests with the 7DII and 5DIII. Right now my kids are wondering why I'm talking to you instead of watching a Christmas movie with them. Silly kids.


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## sanj (Dec 25, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > sanj said:
> ...



Is this had or have? And any links where I could read further on this pls?


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## FEBS (Dec 26, 2014)

luckydude said:


> Hi the guy who started this thread here. Sorry I've been absent, been sick as a dog, you just don't want to know. Coming out of both ends, nuf said, bokay?
> 
> Some more info/thoughts. First I have a 5DIII, not II, not that that would matter in this case. Second, the reason I took the 7DII and the 35mm is I knew that I wanted about a 50mm lens and I had loaned out my 50mm f1.4. So either it was too wide with the 35mm (in your face) or 85mm 1.8 (too long), or the 24-105 (too dark). I'd heard good things about the 7DII at high ISO so I went with that. (As an aside, I'm inclined to send the 35 f2 back and get the Sigma, bokeh is less of an issue for me, low light is a big issue. YMMV.)
> 
> ...



OK. Thanks for your feedback. Glad to hear you are better right now, and can further follow on this thread.

But it does matter if you own a 5Diii. The high iso of the 5Diii is better and also the AF is better compared to the 5Dii. In that case I would never have taken the 7D2. FF is so much better for high iso. The 7D2 can't being compared to the 7D, but it is an APS-C. That means more noise compared to the FF, as the pixels are much smaller.

Even on a 5Diii I will not allow my ISO to go up till 12800. You must go really max to 6400. The shutterspeed might have been a little lower. The IS inside must hep you to reduce your shutterspeed to 1/60 or even 1/30. Using the 7D2 on iso 12800 is not an option for me. I really don't expect hardly a keeper at that moment. I will have more keepers with a lens with a good IS and a lower shutterspeed in combination on a 7D2 with max 1600 till 3200ISO.

To be honest, as already mentioned before, I would use flash. I can accept that it is not your choice, but then you should keep ISO moderate and not as high as 12800, because all your photos will otherwise soft.


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## luckydude (Dec 27, 2014)

FEBS said:


> OK. Thanks for your feedback. Glad to hear you are better right now, and can further follow on this thread.
> 
> But it does matter if you own a 5Diii. The high iso of the 5Diii is better.



The problem with the 5D was that I didn't have an appropriate lens, I had loaned out my 50mm f1.4. I agree that the 5D is the tool for the job given the right lens.

The issue I have with the 7D in all AF points mode is what it locks onto. There are number of pictures where it made the wrong choice. Like that one of my wife in the kitchen, why did it choose the background? I'll bet you a beer that a cheap point and shoot would get that AF right every time, why does the 7DII get it wrong?

And here, where is the focus?

http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/yunah-bad/10.html
http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/yunah-bad/11.html
http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/yunah-bad/22.html

These are the real weird ones, the camera is ignoring the obvious focus choice and grabbing the back of someone's head:

http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/yunah-bad/24.html
http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/yunah-bad/68.html
http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/yunah-bad/69.html

Those seem pretty bad to me, yeah, the camera picked something to track but don't you see how it clearly picked the wrong thing in those last 3? Seems like the alg is to pick the closest thing, which maybe makes sense but then how do you explain it picking the background on my wife?


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 27, 2014)

luckydude said:


> The issue I have with the 7D in all AF points mode is what it locks onto. There are number of pictures where it made the wrong choice. Like that one of my wife in the kitchen, why did it choose the background? I'll bet you a beer that a cheap point and shoot would get that AF right every time, why does the 7DII get it wrong?



The issue with your 7D is wetware - you. The camera's auto AF point selection operates on a defined set of parameters, which do not include reading your mind or correctly guessing what _you_ think should be the subject of the image. 

The cheap P&S could pick something totally random and in most cases (including 'typical' indoor scenes like those you've posted), pretty much everything in the frame is within the DoF due to the very narrow effective aperture of the lens. The larger effective aperture(s) of the lens(es) used on an APS-S or FF mean shallower DoF which makes proper focusing much more important. I suppose you could continue using auto point selection in your dSLR and just stop your lenses down to f/22...that way, you'd have a much better chance of getting the subject you want in focus with your very large/heavy/expensive P&S.


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## takesome1 (Dec 27, 2014)

luckydude said:


> FEBS said:
> 
> 
> > OK. Thanks for your feedback. Glad to hear you are better right now, and can further follow on this thread.
> ...



I don't want to beat the horse to death, but all those examples I would have been using single shot single point focus. Focus and recompose, since it is faster than shuffling around fro the right point. Not using AI servo and Not all points.

Now if those shots are in that mode then maybe you have problems.


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## FEBS (Dec 27, 2014)

luckydude said:


> FEBS said:
> 
> 
> > OK. Thanks for your feedback. Glad to hear you are better right now, and can further follow on this thread.
> ...



Please do read the 7d2 AF guide carefully for using all 65 points. There is mentioned in that guide that if one-shot is choosen the closest point of the 65 points will be used. In ai-servo mode however, focus starts with the manual selected af point And will then follow that point over the 65 different positions, dependentie on Itr additionele tracking info. Both methodes are very usefull, however they different ferm the current p&s that have auto face recognition which the 7d2 does NOT have. The 7d2 Has a color And face tracking system, but that's different from p&s


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## luckydude (Dec 27, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> luckydude said:
> 
> 
> > The issue I have with the 7D in all AF points mode is what it locks onto. There are number of pictures where it made the wrong choice. Like that one of my wife in the kitchen, why did it choose the background? I'll bet you a beer that a cheap point and shoot would get that AF right every time, why does the 7DII get it wrong?
> ...



Hey, ease up a bit, I'm just trying to learn here. And I'm not quite the idiot you think I am, I shoot sports and it's almost always center point only, I get good shots, as good as the pros at the tournaments I've gone to.

Perhaps you can explain how these defined set of parameters choose what they choose. Why does it sometimes choose what is the background, ignoring a decent foreground? Why does it sometimes choose stuff off to the side and other times not?

Did you look at those pictures and can you explain why it choose what it did? 

Am I the only one scratching my head over that? For the record, the 5DIII does not do that, the 7DI did not do that, my 20D and 40D and T4i did not do that. But I'm sure the problem is me and the camera is perfect and all those other bodies just happened to do a better job.


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## luckydude (Dec 27, 2014)

FEBS said:


> Please do read the 7d2 AF guide carefully for using all 65 points. There is mentioned in that guide that if one-shot is choosen the closest point of the 65 points will be used. In ai-servo mode however, focus starts with the manual selected af point And will then follow that point over the 65 different positions, dependentie on Itr additionele tracking info. Both methodes are very usefull, however they different ferm the current p&s that have auto face recognition which the 7d2 does NOT have. The 7d2 Has a color And face tracking system, but that's different from p&s



Thanks, will do. Is the all points mode in the 7DII a departure from the 5DIII and other earlier bodies? 

I remember discussions here about how the camera will decide where to start and there is supposedly logic in there to prevent (as was shown) an fencepost grabbing the focus when the main picture is beyond that.


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## Keith_Reeder (Dec 27, 2014)

takesome1 said:


> That is the real problem with the 7D II AF system, it is salesman hype and bloated specs. 65 points sure makes it sound like it is on par with a 1D x, but lost in the text is the 5 precision points versus 1.



There _is_ no "problem" with the 7D Mk II's AF. There _may be_ a problem with some 7D Mk II _users_.

As to the "5 precisions points vs. 1" detail - can you tell me when that's _ever_ likely actually to matter?

Here's a far more useful page from TDP:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Comparisons/Canon-EOS-7D-II-1D-X-5D-III-AF-Comparison.aspx

Of particular _Real World_ significance:

"However, all 65 AF points on the EOS 7D Mark II are standard precision cross-type points, versus 21 standard precision cross-type points on the EOS- 1D X and EOS 5D Mark III. For EF lenses with maximum apertures equal to or larger than f/5.6, the EOS 7D Mark II has an advantage, especially when considered in combination with the larger coverage area described earlier. Advantage: EOS 7D Mark II"

I know from hands-on experience that in the vast majority of cases, that's going to get me more in-focus shots than four more high precision AF points in a vertical line in the middle of the AF array.


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## Keith_Reeder (Dec 27, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> I don't know how the 7d2 performs with single af points in real life, but having a high point density isn't only good for multi-point af tracking, but for shooting w/o recompose.



Correct - and as a bird 'tog I get _more_ benefit from these additional AF points _compositionally_ than I do from the benefit they deliver in AF terms. 

I'm shooting a car rally tomorrow - I'll be all over the AF array for compostional purposes there, too.


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## Keith_Reeder (Dec 27, 2014)

luckydude said:


> there is supposedly logic in there to prevent (as was shown) an fencepost grabbing the focus when the main picture is beyond that.



No camera's _that_ clever - that's our job.


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## raptor3x (Dec 27, 2014)

luckydude said:


> Hey, ease up a bit, I'm just trying to learn here. And I'm not quite the idiot you think I am, I shoot sports and it's almost always center point only, I get good shots, as good as the pros at the tournaments I've gone to.
> 
> Perhaps you can explain how these defined set of parameters choose what they choose. Why does it sometimes choose what is the background, ignoring a decent foreground? Why does it sometimes choose stuff off to the side and other times not?
> 
> ...



Did you have iTR metering enabled for this? If you look at which AF points are selected in the shots you've provided you can see that the camera is always selecting the high contrast target closest to the camera which is exactly what the 5D3/7D1/70D will do as well as the 1DX if you turn iTR off. With iTR turned on, the camera should try to find faces in the frame to lock onto first and then go for the closest high contrast target. As others have said though, for this kind of scenario large area AF mode in AI Servo mode with iTR turned off is probably the worst mode you could have picked. In order of preference, I would have chosen Spot AF/Single Shot --> Single Point/Single Shot --> 65 point/Single Shot/iTR. Also, iTR only looks for faces in single shot mode; in Servo mode it samples the color underneath the "seed" AF point and then uses that information to help track the subject through the frame.


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## FEBS (Dec 27, 2014)

luckydude said:


> FEBS said:
> 
> 
> > Please do read the 7d2 AF guide carefully for using all 65 points. There is mentioned in that guide that if one-shot is choosen the closest point of the 65 points will be used. In ai-servo mode however, focus starts with the manual selected af point And will then follow that point over the 65 different positions, dependentie on Itr additionele tracking info. Both methodes are very usefull, however they different ferm the current p&s that have auto face recognition which the 7d2 does NOT have. The 7d2 Has a color And face tracking system, but that's different from p&s
> ...



The 5diii And the 1dx behave the same in all points AF in combination with ai-servo. The 5diii has however a less intelligent tracking system compared to 1dx And 7d2. 

To be honnest I never use all points on the any camera. I like to be in control by using at single point with most of the time 4 point expansion. Only for birds against the sky, And when I have trouble to track a bird, then I use zone or all af points.

In the beginning I also had problems with such a complex af system. However, on the 5d3 after a lot of testing And Reading I found my wat. I never had afterwards any problem with the 1dx nor the 7d2 recently, caused by similar af system And all the efforts I made in the past. Sorry, but all focus points is much more complex as it seems And in no way to compare with the all focus points of a p&s.


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## Keith_Reeder (Dec 27, 2014)

FEBS said:


> I will have more keepers with a lens with a good IS and a lower shutterspeed in combination on a 7D2 with max 1600 till 3200 ISO.



_Ahem..._

100% crop of 4000 ISO (ISO chosen by Auto ISO while testing at "working" shutter speeds) from my 7D Mk II - converted with (and straight out of) a _good_ Raw converter - no additional PP NR, no trickery, just a capable camera and converter combo:

http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/7D_Mk_II_4000_ISO.jpg

(here's the whole frame, for the Exif: http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/7D_Mk_II_4000_ISO_1.jpg)

Yes, there's a bit of light here, but rest assured I can get _way_ higher ISOs - and in shitty light - to much the same effect (here's 16000 ISO: http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/7D_Mk_II_16000_ISO.jpg. Check the Exif - just 1/200 at 16000 ISO and f/4), just by making a smart converter choice and learning how to use it well.


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## FEBS (Dec 27, 2014)

Hi Keith,

I agree that the 7d2 can go higher in iso then 1600 or 3200. However, the kind of photos the op made, under those light condition, then I would not go higher then 3200 Iso. For my 5d3 iT would be max 6400 And the 1dx max 12800. But for those conditions I would always choose for a FF. And besides, higher iso always make the photo more soft.

You did a good job for removing the Noise. Which converter did you use?


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## takesome1 (Dec 27, 2014)

Keith_Reeder said:


> As to the "5 precisions points vs. 1" detail - can you tell me when that's _ever_ likely actually to matter?



It matters that the 7D II is not as precise as the 1D bodies. 
For instance shooting wildlife such as deer.
It is the difference between choosing between 20 photos that are in focus but only a few have critical focus of a deer's eyelashes in crisp sharp focus and choosing between 20 photos that have the eyes in crisp sharp focus.

As for the other 64 points, when shot individually they are not as accurate as the center point with the 7D II. They have a harder time achieving that critical focus.


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## takesome1 (Dec 27, 2014)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Here's a far more useful page from TDP:
> http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Comparisons/Canon-EOS-7D-II-1D-X-5D-III-AF-Comparison.aspx
> 
> Of particular *Real World* significance:
> ...



I think the "Real World" significance is comparing the 7D II the last two months rather than a rehash of Chuck Wesstfall's sales pitch. 

My hands-on experience is showing a different story than yours.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 27, 2014)

luckydude said:


> Hey, ease up a bit, I'm just trying to learn here. And I'm not quite the idiot you think I am, I shoot sports and it's almost always center point only, I get good shots, as good as the pros at the tournaments I've gone to.



If learning is your objective, allow me to refer you to several posts giving nearly identical advice (don't let the camera select the focus point for you)...on the very first page of this thread.




luckydude said:


> Perhaps you can explain how these defined set of parameters choose what they choose. Why does it sometimes choose what is the background, ignoring a decent foreground? Why does it sometimes choose stuff off to the side and other times not?



Closest proximity and highest contrast in an orientation appropriate for the point which is over the feature. Sometimes distant high contrast wins over close lower contrast. Sometimes what looks like high contrast to you is not in an ideal orientation for the AF sensor, and thus looks like much lower contrast to the camera. The actual AF points are bigger than the boxes in the VF, so sometimes a feature is activating an AF point even though you believe it is not under an AF point. Taking all of that into account, the bottom line is that the AF system sees the world differently than a human sees it. So...we're back to *don't let the camera pick the AF point for you*.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Dec 27, 2014)

FF bodies have generally had more accurate AF (in terms of inches or mm accuracy) than crop bodies. They need it, because the depth of field on a FF can be a lot less. As I recall, AF accuracy is specified based on 1/3rd the depth of field up to f/2.8. 

The number of pages in a manual does not affect AF accuracy, there are no settings for it, its built into the size and spacing of the elements on the AF sensor.

The 7D MK II has a sophisticated AF system, and is much better at tracking subjects, has fast AF speed, and much better when focusing at off center points, but when comparing accuracy on the center point, I'd expect to see the 6D win because in in or cm, 1/3 the depth of field is a much smaller number on FF.

From TDP http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Photography-Tips/Canon-EOS-DSLR-Autofocus-Explained.aspx

"*Precision, invisibility, and other intangibles* 
As mentioned above with the precision discussion, there's a modified type of AF point called a 'high-precision' point, which focuses within 1/3 of the depth of focus of the lens at max aperture, vs. the normal precision spec of within 1 depth of focus. Usually, the high precision point is the center point, and it operates in high-precision mode with an f/2.8 lens on most bodies, or an f/4 lens on 1-series bodies. The 1D X is an exception in two ways - it has five high-precision points in a central vertical column, instead of just one, and they require f/2.8 unlike previous 1-series bodies. "


Is this had or have? And any links where I could read further on this pls?


I say had, because I've not seen figures for accuracy of the 7D. Presumably, the cross points are still accurate to 1/3 depth of field with f/2.8 or faster lenses, and within the depth of field for slower lenses. This number has been widely quoted over the years, and found all over the internet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofocus

From a Canon patent (US Patent 6,603,929)

When the camera determines how far and in what direction the lens must move to cancel the phase difference, it does so within a tolerance of "within the depth of focus" of lenses slower than f2.8 (down to f5.6) or "within 1/3 of the depth of focus" of lenses f2.8 and faster. The depth of focus is the range at the sensor plane within which the image of a point will be reproduced as a blur smaller than the manufacturer's designated "circle of confusion" (CoC). Canon's designated circle of confusion is 0.035mm for the 24x36mm format and 0.02mm for the APS-C format.

You can also checkout Canon Lens Work III.

And this post by Neuro a few years back quoting Chuck Westfall.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=1143.msg15334#msg15334


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## candc (Dec 28, 2014)

i did some testing using the 7dii and the 50l using 65pt auto select. from what i see it is doing what the manual says its supposed to do which is focus on the closest thing. the af points cover almost the entire horizontal frame so that is a lot to get in the way. try opening the photos in dpp using quickview and show af points to see if it is doing the same thing. if not then there is something wrong with the camera. 

if you are using ai servo make sure "af initial point for 65pt" is set to auto. not manual, or preselected.

this test i did was single shot but ai servo seems to work the same way in that mode.


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## CLohmeyerJr (Dec 28, 2014)

When I first got my 7D II I also struggled with focus issues. I have been working with the camera now for about a month and am finally starting to get better results. I still have a lot that I delete but photographing flying birds is not the easiest subject in the world. I have by no means figured the camera out and I am already changing settings based on my experience yesterday. This camera is more complicated than the the original 7D but I already believe it is better.

Here is a photo I took yesterday of a great blue. Shutter speed was 1/1000 (going to 1/1250 next outing), aperture was 8.0 and ISO was 320.


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## FEBS (Dec 28, 2014)

candc said:


> i did some testing using the 7dii and the 50l using 65pt auto select. from what i see it is doing what the manual says its supposed to do which is focus on the closest thing. the af points cover almost the entire horizontal frame so that is a lot to get in the way. try opening the photos in dpp using quickview and show af points to see if it is doing the same thing. if not then there is something wrong with the camera.
> 
> if you are using ai servo make sure "af initial point for 65pt" is set to auto. not manual, or preselected.
> 
> this test i did was single shot but ai servo seems to work the same way in that mode.



Thanks Candc,

I was not aware that this option was added on the 7D2 AF system. I did find it back in the AF guide and also in the manual under AF4 menu. 

For those shooting in all 65-AF points, this might be a great option, as switching this to automatic means that you can the camera focus on the closest object, but be aware that this will not mean that a person/face will be automatically focused.


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## Sabaki (Dec 29, 2014)

Ok, I need help as I'm also not getting the results I expected from the 7DII.

For the record, I'm on my 2nd body, as the first one had issues that was recognised by the outlet where I bought it and exchanged within 3 days for another body.

My reasons for buying a 7Dii was for me to take my action photography, wildlife and birding in particular, to a level my 500D could not attain.
I chose the 7DII based on the vaunted AF system, which I do freely admit that I don't know well enough just yet.

My results are very hit and miss right now and those results that are sharp, seems to have an oversharpened look to it.

On the other hand, I do my macro in manual focus mode and I'm attaining critical sharpness there.

Things change when I switch to using the AF though.

The bulk of my shots with the 7DII, have me using the 400mm f/5.6, as it's my primary lens for birding and wildlife.

I have disabled Zone AF, Large Zone AF, Auto Selection 65 point and generally rely on AF Expansion for my images and strive to place the central focussing point on the creatures eye.
I will select the point I consider relevant to the composition I want.

Drive mode is AI Servo.

My camera is placed on a beanbag as I sit in a bird hide. I shoot at stationary subjects like resting birds or knots in branches etc. I disable hi speed and select one shot and then I press the shutter.

Image after image after image is soft, soft, soft! It's highly frustrating that I can't get the crisp eye on stationary birds, how I am supposed to get that on moving animals!?

So to repeat, I am well aware that I am part of the issue here but certainly this camera should be doing better? Certainly, if one was to judge purely on the reviews, on the behaviour expressed in the manuals and by the comparisons to the 1DX, I should be getting far more satisfaction from this camera? 

Like one of the commentators mentioned, I do have the camera in hand and I have shot in excess of 2000 shots and I am not impressed by the results.

Reading this thread, I will dedicate myself to fully understanding the AF system, I will print the manual out and study it like a champ. I will wait for updated firmare that hopefully will sort out minor issues.

But what if all of that, it turns out the body I own is a dud???


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## FEBS (Dec 29, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> Ok, I need help as I'm also not getting the results I expected from the 7DII.
> 
> For the record, I'm on my 2nd body, as the first one had issues that was recognised by the outlet where I bought it and exchanged within 3 days for another body.
> 
> ...



2 questions there about:

Did you afma your lens on this body?
Can you post a photo here so that we can look at your problem?


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## Sabaki (Dec 29, 2014)

FEBS said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, I need help as I'm also not getting the results I expected from the 7DII.
> ...



Hey FEBS

I have attempted to use every AFMA value from -8 to +8. My very first experience with AFMA so once again, not quite sure if I've nailed.

I'll post some pics when I get home later, sitting at work right now


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 29, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> I have attempted to use every AFMA value from -8 to +8. My very first experience with AFMA so once again, not quite sure if I've nailed.



Random or systematic guessing at an AFMA value is not the way to go about it. Proper testing to determine the optimal AFMA setting is the best approach.


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## takesome1 (Dec 29, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> I have disabled Zone AF, Large Zone AF, Auto Selection 65 point and generally rely on *AF Expansion *for my images and strive to place the central focussing point on the creatures eye.
> I will select the point I consider relevant to the composition I want.



I wonder if this may be part of the problem. Using expansion you are using multiple points around the eye. 
The compact nature of 65 focus points on a crop camera may very well have points close to the center picking up other parts that are close. Focus points to compact? It feels that way sometimes when shooting with the 7D II.


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## Steve Balcombe (Dec 30, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> I have disabled Zone AF, Large Zone AF, Auto Selection 65 point and generally rely on AF Expansion for my images and strive to place the central focussing point on the creatures eye.
> I will select the point I consider relevant to the composition I want.
> 
> Drive mode is AI Servo.
> ...



Sounds like you are going about this sensibly and methodically, but one key piece of information is missing - if the shots are out of focus as you seem to be implying, where is the camera focusing? If nothing is sharp, it's not a focusing problem.

Also BTW try one shot AF for static shots and see whether there is any difference.


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## ashmadux (Jan 7, 2015)

Right now im looking at a gallery of photos taken at Bh with one of the 70d's on display. Looking promising so far. The 28-135 on it definitely needed AFMA but otherwise iso 6400 shots look usable, there's an appreciable amount of detail as well. iso 320 looks noisy...hmm....but ill definitely need to test in high key lighting scenarios.

Ive basically fallen in love with the fast live view AF, especially when constant af is on...its already focused before you press the trigger...wowo. 

I loudly have grabbed one for 650 from canon refurb...argh

PS- Im reading and viewing all the material i can find on the center point focus issue...looks like a real, documented issue that canon may not fix for you. That said, center point focus/recompose is pretty pointless when you have 19 cross type points (IMHO), but hey, do whatcha like


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## Don Haines (Jan 20, 2015)

Steve Balcombe said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > I have disabled Zone AF, Large Zone AF, Auto Selection 65 point and generally rely on AF Expansion for my images and strive to place the central focussing point on the creatures eye.
> ...



I agree. Try the shot as "One shot" and then try the shot as "AI Servo". If it is sharp in one shot and not in AI servo, you may have to send your camera back.... several people have reported this problem.


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## Sabaki (Jan 20, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> Steve Balcombe said:
> 
> 
> > Sabaki said:
> ...



Thanks for the advice Steve and Don. 

I cycled through Single Point AF, Single Point Spot AF and then tried every permutation of assist points in both Single Shot and AI Servo. Took multiple images with each setup. 

Canon contacted me earlier, they will have an answer for me by Thursday morning for the very latest. Apparently.


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## Don Haines (Jan 20, 2015)

Sabaki said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Steve Balcombe said:
> ...



I would love to know the results.... I am going through the same thing with my 7D2.


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## Sabaki (Jan 20, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



Don, I will most definitely let you know what they end up saying. 

I do believe from a marketing perspective, Canon will not make an official statement advising that the 7Dii has engineering issues. 

I believe they will offer me a story of a faulty batch or something like that.


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## Nelu (Jan 20, 2015)

luckydude said:


> The issue I have with the 7D in all AF points mode is what it locks onto. There are number of pictures where it made the wrong choice.
> And here, where is the focus?
> 
> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/yunah-bad/10.html
> ...


The wrong choice? I don`t think so:
http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2014/eos7dmkii_zoneaf_afpt.shtml

"The new Wide Zone AF on the EOS 7D Mark II occupies a substantial part of the picture area, taking the concept of Zone AF to even bigger levels. It still functions the same way — whether in One-Shot AF or AI Servo AF, it tries to keep sharpest focus on the nearest object it detects falling within the zone."

This is also valid for all AF points selection...
Again, this was user error, no camera error


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## monkey44 (Jan 20, 2015)

I have a suspicion that the 7D2 issues we discuss here probably emerge more from the technical expertise of the 7D2 owners here on POTN than from the actual engineering of the camera. WE are much more critical of the results than many 7D2 buyers -- some moms and dads have more money, and buy expensive cameras because they think it will make better photos of Jimmy Smith and Sarah Jones kicking a soccer ball. It won't, unless mom or dad knows how to operate it properly. And that goes for everyone that picks one up. 

I'm gonna consider myself "lucky" maybe, I guess, because I have no focus issues with mine in any mode. And know it will take an extremely sharp photo with moving or stationary targets. What that tells me is the engineering is sound [or no one would have sharp images] ... so either 'a batch' hit with some assembly issues that produced a few bad ones (and pre-orders got some, unfortunately - which also makes sense because a batch would or could have hit B&H or Adorama and pre-orders would likely be pros, not consumers, so it's kinda self-fulfilling that several pros would all get from the same pre-order batch) 

Or some of the technology is less understood from the beginning with some owners. And I'm not berating any of the guys - professionals or amateurs - that have focus issues. This is a generally and comparatively a very sophisticated camera - and simply grabbing it and aiming it ain't gonna cut it for long. 

One thing I did notice, if you don't take care in setting up the AF, it will kick you out of focus on subject if so much as a leaf or a twig gets between you and the target - especially if you're set in the "acquire new target" mode, instead of the "stick with primary target" mode. Took me while to figure that out, and was very puzzling at first. But I'm getting sharp images even on the wing and at 100% crop with both the 70-200 and the 100-400 v.2 --- Do I miss some, you bet, quite a few - but I blame me for that, and not the 7D2 or the lens.

So, I'm coming down on the side of 'engineering is sound' and other factors (even a batch error maybe) cause the focus issues, rather than poor engineering and design technology in the 7D2. But, that's just me and my personal experience in the field since receiving it.


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## Don Haines (Jan 20, 2015)

monkey44 said:


> I have a suspicion that the 7D2 issues we discuss here probably emerge more from the technical expertise of the 7D2 owners here on POTN than from the actual engineering of the camera.



But what happens you have AFMAd the lenses, are using the centre focus point only, great light, 1/2500th second, and shooting a stationary object with fantastic contrast in a checkerboard like pattern....

In one shot mode, the focus is perfect on every single shot, be it shooting a single frame or a burst. In AI servo mode not one single frame is in focus, be it a single frame or a burst and in any of the "cases" for AI servo.

To me, this indicates a problem with the camera, not the user. Why does it focus perfectly in one mode and not in the other. I have also noticed that this problem is worse with lenses that need a big AFMA adjustment.... It is as if the AFMA value is used for one shot mode, but in AI Servo mode, the AFMA value is ignored... 

I believe that this is the root of the problem and if I am correct, there should be a firmware update to fix the problem....

I will be re-doing my tests this weekend and testing to see if my AFMA hypothesis is correct and if it does focus on the AFMA=0 location instead of the programmed AFMA location.


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## takesome1 (Jan 20, 2015)

It seems on this forum if someone has AF issues it is never the cameras fault?
Always operator error.

Now, I agree the problems the OP had were operator error.

The 7D II has a fine AF system, if you are moving up from a t5i or 7D II it seems vastly superior.
If you need a sports AF system and your camera is a 5D II it would seem like a great improvement in AF ability.

The 7D II is however not on par with the 1D x AF system or some of the older 1D's for that matter. 
I haven't used the 5D III but I have a feeling it might not stack up to it either.
It is not as precise, far few keepers than my 1D IV. I have seen it loose focus from one frame to the next in burst mode. It seems to have a harder time pinpointing a focus point, harder than my old 5D II (I have seen others comment that it seems like it has larger center focus point, I thought the same thing).

So I blew $1,799 on this 7D II camera. What did I get? IMO the best AF system in a camera body that cost under $2K. I suppose sometimes you have to look at it and decide if you received what you paid for.


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## takesome1 (Jan 20, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> monkey44 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a suspicion that the 7D2 issues we discuss here probably emerge more from the technical expertise of the 7D2 owners here on POTN than from the actual engineering of the camera.
> ...



Interesting, are you switching in C modes or maybe just switching to AI from Single Shot in Manual, AV or TV mode?


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## Sabaki (Jan 20, 2015)

I will definitely not take the liberty of saying that I do not need to improve myself to use the 7Dii or any camera for that matter, better. 
In fact, I expected to still be learning years into owning the camera. 

Fair enough, my comment about an engineering fault was silly so let's take that off the table. Let us also hope it's only a minute number of 7Dii's with these issues. 

Still, pretty shitty to get two faulty bodies and having to wait weeks and weeks for the issue to be sorted.


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## Don Haines (Jan 20, 2015)

takesome1 said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > monkey44 said:
> ...


I was in AV mode... good point though, When I do more detailed testing I should see if the problem holds true in Manual, TV, or even (GASP!) green box mode....


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## Nelu (Jan 20, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> But what happens you have AFMAd the lenses, are using the centre focus point only, great light, 1/2500th second, and shooting a stationary object with fantastic contrast in a checkerboard like pattern....
> 
> In one shot mode, the focus is perfect on every single shot, be it shooting a single frame or a burst. In AI servo mode not one single frame is in focus, be it a single frame or a burst and in any of the "cases" for AI servo.


This is how it`s supposed to work, and I learned this from one of the best Canon exports, Rudy Winston: one shot mode is for stationary subjects while AI Servo is for moving subjects.
You`ll find one of his videos here but there are many more on Canon`s website:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sgRZBo-WKI

Basically when you`re using AI Servo the camera actually expects some movement and if your subject doesn`t move, the AF might get confused.
I hope this helps,

Nelu


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## takesome1 (Jan 20, 2015)

Nelu said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > But what happens you have AFMAd the lenses, are using the centre focus point only, great light, 1/2500th second, and shooting a stationary object with fantastic contrast in a checkerboard like pattern....
> ...



I would have agreed back when I owned only a 5D II and 7D.
Then I bought a 1D IV and whether stationary or moving using servo is as accurate as one shot.


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## Don Haines (Jan 20, 2015)

Nelu said:
 

> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > But what happens you have AFMAd the lenses, are using the centre focus point only, great light, 1/2500th second, and shooting a stationary object with fantastic contrast in a checkerboard like pattern....
> ...


Another parameter for the test matrix!

The more I use this camera, the more impressed I am with the complexity of AF systems.... Steep learning curve! I am still not sure if the problem is me or the camera.... at the moment I suspect it is some of both, but trying to detail my problems is sure helping me learn. However, it does not seem right that a camera would be able to track a moving object and then when it stops, loose focus... what if you are shooting a bird landing on a feeder? Do you change modes as it lands?


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## takesome1 (Jan 20, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



Maybe set it to no AFMA, then switch from one shot to AI Servo. Then turn the adjustment back on and reset it.
Just a suggestion. Maybe it is just a bug.


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## Nelu (Jan 20, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> what if you are shooting a bird landing on a feeder? Do you change modes as it lands?



I set one of the back buttons for AI Servo and one for One-shot and I can operate any of them easily with my thumb.
Funny thing is, you can`t do this with the 5D Mark III 

Nelu


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