# 600ex as main lights



## gjones5252 (Aug 15, 2013)

I have one 600ex and i am seriously considering getting another plus the st-e3. This would be used mainly for event photography and some portraits. Wedding parties etc. Are these bright enough to be used for the formal portraits and adding ambient light at a wedding? I feel like they are pretty powerful but every review i see they are using three on each light stand. I dont have 2500 to use on new speedlights. 
I looking at getting stands and maybe using the gary fong for both since they are simple diffuser that works well. I know it wont be the same as having studio strobes but i also dont want to haul those around and have to set them up each time... 
Any one have this type of setup?


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## Jim Saunders (Aug 15, 2013)

Three together gets you faster recycle times, but external battery packs will do that too.

Jim


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## InterMurph (Aug 15, 2013)

I have four 600EX-RTs and an ST-E3.

They make for a very versatile lighting set, and I _love_ the flexibility that the wireless system gives me.

But there are some things that they simply cannot do. For example, they simply aren't bright enough to overpower the ambient light on a sunny day. 

But for events and weddings, you will be able to do just about everything you need to with two 600EX-RTs.

I recommend buying refurbished from the Canon web site. I got my last two for $373 each; just set up an alert on CanonPriceWatch.com and be patient.


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## JerryKnight (Aug 15, 2013)

My opinion is that Canon speedlites are overpriced. For the cost of one 600EX-RT, you can get an entire lighting setup - 3-4 flashes and radio triggers.

I did a quick Amazon check.. Three YongNuo YN-565EX's, one YN-622C transmitter/receiver set, two more YN-622 receivers. The total is $550, the exact price of one new 600EX-RT.

I've used YongNuo flashes for a while, as have many other photogs, and they seem to be quite reliable.

EDIT: Of course, the 600EX-RT you already have could be your on-camera flash, but you'd still need the YN-622C transmitter on your camera as well. In my own setup, I keep a flash on-camera so that I can provide a low-power fill light no matter where my slave flashes are pointing. (My flash setup is almost exclusively for wedding receptions.)

EDIT #2: Also, this assumes you want to stay with all E-TTL flashes. If you were to go with manual slave flashes and radio triggers, you could probably get 3-4 flashes, radio triggers, _and_ lightstands for about that price (depending on how nice of lightstands you want).


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## cayenne (Aug 15, 2013)

JerryKnight said:


> My opinion is that Canon speedlites are overpriced. For the cost of one 600EX-RT, you can get an entire lighting setup - 3-4 flashes and radio triggers.
> 
> I did a quick Amazon check.. Three YongNuo YN-565EX's, one YN-622C transmitter/receiver set, two more YN-622 receivers. The total is $550, the exact price of one new 600EX-RT.
> 
> ...



The prices on the 600's is dropping. Like another poster, I got mine as Canon refurbs for $373.....and it appears there may be a cheaper Canon , similar to the 480's...but with radio to work with 600's is to come out soon.

The nice thing about the 600's and buying into the Canon system, is the control you can have over multiple units and put them into multiple groups...running various levels in manual, ettl or even mixing manual settings in different groups at the same time as ettl....

And the nice thing is, you can instantly control them all from the back of your camera which really is handy.

So, while it is $$, the price is coming down, and you DO get some nice control features you can't do readily from your camera with the 3rd party units.


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## JerryKnight (Aug 15, 2013)

cayenne said:


> The nice thing about the 600's and buying into the Canon system, is the control you can have over multiple units and put them into multiple groups...running various levels in manual, ettl or even mixing manual settings in different groups at the same time as ettl....
> 
> And the nice thing is, you can instantly control them all from the back of your camera which really is handy.



These are features of the E-TTL system, and from what I understand, you can do all these things with the YN-622C E-TTL radio trigger.

Of course there are benefits to staying with a Canon system (warranty work is probably easier) but I say it's grossly out of proportion with the cost. Yes, Canon speedlite prices are coming down, but they have a *long* way to go to compete in "bang-for-your-buck" with 3rd party systems.


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## Wildfire (Aug 15, 2013)

JerryKnight said:


> These are features of the E-TTL system, and from what I understand, you can do all these things with the YN-622C E-TTL radio trigger.
> 
> Of course there are benefits to staying with a Canon system (warranty work is probably easier) but I say it's grossly out of proportion with the cost. Yes, Canon speedlite prices are coming down, but they have a *long* way to go to compete in "bang-for-your-buck" with 3rd party systems.



The Canon RT system is expensive, yes, but it's not _grossly_ out of proportion. Here's the cost of a few 3-flash setups with radio TTL capabilities:


4x Yongnuo YN-622 ($170) and 3x Yongnuo YN568EX ($540): *$710*
1x Phottix Odin transmitter and 3x Phottix Odin Recievers ($535) and 3x Canon 430EX ($900): *$1435* 
3x Canon 600EX-RT ($1500) and 1x ST-E3-RT ($287): *$1787*
1x Pocketwizard TT1 and 3x Pocketwizard Flex TT5 ($886) and 3x Canon 430EX ($900): *$1796*


So the Yongnuo setup is no doubt the cheapest, but you may suffer from reliability issues, and good luck getting the product repaired in a timely manner if you do. A great setup for a budget amateur, but don't count on it when you need to use it hard every day.

The Phottix setup is a much better choice for a working professional (ie. wedding shooter, like the OP) but the price is now approaching the Canon RT setup... AND you still have to manage an extra set of batteries for each radio device in addition to each flash's batteries.

So yeah, the Canon RT setup is very expensive. But it also happens to be the most reliable of the 4 due to Canon build quality and the radio being built-in to the flash. The 600EX is also the most powerful flash in any of these setups.

And then there's the "gold standard", Pocketwizard. That price doesn't include the zone controller or batteries yet and it's already more expensive than the Canon RT system.

I shoot weddings exclusively with 3 Canon 600EX-RTs and I am very happy with the performance. I would eventually like an AlienBee or Einstein for on-location portraits in bright daylight, but 600EXs perform so well that I've found I don't really need to buy anything else. Canon RT -- expensive? Yes. Ridiculously so? Not really.


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## JerryKnight (Aug 15, 2013)

Wildfire said:


> So the Yongnuo setup is no doubt the cheapest, but you may suffer from reliability issues, and good luck getting the product repaired in a timely manner if you do. A great setup for a budget amateur, but don't count on it when you need to use it hard every day.



I respectfully disagree. Plenty of professionals rely on many other brands than Canon and Pocketwizard. Equipment fails, and there's no evidence that Canon or Pocketwizard equipment fails less often. Sure, the warranty work is probably easier and quicker with brands that have direct US presence, but honestly, if I have a ~$100 flash fail, I'll buy a new one while the other one is being repaired. It's cheap enough to be able to do that. Canon _needs_ good warranty service on their flashes because their stuff is so doggone expensive, even though it's probably manufactured in the same factories!



> I shoot weddings exclusively with 3 Canon 600EX-RTs and I am very happy with the performance. I would eventually like an AlienBee or Einstein for on-location portraits in bright daylight, but 600EXs perform so well that I've found I don't really need to buy anything else. Canon RT -- expensive? Yes. Ridiculously so? Not really.



That's great, and I would never criticize anyone for their gear decisions, but many, many photogs use "other" cheaper gear and get the results they're after. It's a cost-benefit analysis that everyone has to do for themselves. You chose one way, I chose another. Don't look down on me for that or accuse me of being too amateur. (I know you probably didn't mean it that way.)

I'm not a total cheapskate. I buy Canon L glass and full-frame bodies. I'll spend a bunch of money on new things when they offer a significant benefit, but when I see something that Canon charges several times more for a negligible gain in quality, I call it ridiculous and go the other direction.

Look, I guess my main point is that shot-for-shot, these set-ups are mostly equivalent. Of course equipment can break. Firing a flash tube is an electrically violent process, and flashes can and do fail, regardless of brand. The warranty is great, but it doesn't protect you in the field. The only way to really prepare for failures is to carry spares. With my YongNuo's I can afford multiple spares, but it's painful to buy spare Canon speedlites.

To each their own - just trying to point out viable alternatives. Canon is great! All hail Canon!


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## gjones5252 (Aug 15, 2013)

thank you everyone for all the awesome replies. I think those are valid points about using a off brand flashes. But i also have usedcanon for almost all my stuff. Very rarely do i order offbrand stuff(that sigma 35mm got me close). I think tha canon still sounds like the best decision for me. Glad to know i will be happy with the power. Any other instances where i may run into not enough power? 
Would you think its good for wiresless portraits adding fill flash while being farther away?


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## Marsu42 (Aug 15, 2013)

Wildfire said:


> The Canon RT system is expensive, yes, but it's not _grossly_ out of proportion.



For once, +1 for the Canon pricing - with the recent cashback I've got my 2nd 600rt for €400 which is the same price as Nikon's top flash, but that hasn't got radio control.

Edit: The real problem here is that Canon hasn't updated the "small" flash to rt tech, and seems to have no intention whatsoever to release rt triggers for older speedlites or other lighting gear.



JerryKnight said:


> These are features of the E-TTL system, and from what I understand, you can do all these things with the YN-622C E-TTL radio trigger.



With yn you get 2nd curtain remote flash (somewhat), but with Canon and a newer camera body you get group mode which is very handy for 3+ flashes, while other 3rd party systems still emulate the old a:b ratio scheme.


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## Wildfire (Aug 16, 2013)

JerryKnight said:


> I would never criticize anyone for their gear decisions, but many, many photogs use "other" cheaper gear and get the results they're after. It's a cost-benefit analysis that everyone has to do for themselves. You chose one way, I chose another. Don't look down on me for that or accuse me of being too amateur. (I know you probably didn't mean it that way.)



Hey, I totally respect you and you might be surprised to find that I actually agree with you too! I own and use a pair of Yongnuo YN560 manual flashes. They do everything I want them to do, reliably and at a ridiculously low price when I don't need TTL. I am definitely not knocking the Yongnuo gear as I use their products frequently myself!

I'm not criticizing amateur photographers at all. As a matter of fact, being an amateur is awesome and FUN! You have the freedom to shoot what you want, when you want. Cheap 3rd party brands are PERFECT for that, and I'd actually argue that it would be stupid to spend more money on extra features that you don't need and won't get you different results than pro gear would.

The only reason I bring up the argument _for_ the Canon gear in this thread is because the OP mentioned he is a wedding shooter. Wedding photographers use their gear every weekend and work it hard. For us, it is actually worth it to spend extra money on reliability -- that peace of mind knowing that our gear is X% less likely to fail has real value to us. Why? Because so many things can go wrong during a wedding, and if you aren't prepared you will fail at the job which you are being paid to do. At best, you will embarrass yourself because you couldn't get your gear working properly in front of the client and you will look unprofessional. At worst, you will ruin the most important day of someones life and possibly lose your business, money, home, etc.

Pro-level gear isn't a requirement to taking great photographs, it just makes it easier! And when you are getting paid to do a job, you want your job to be easier, even if it means spending a little extra on your gear.

That said, keep rocking your Yongnuos, because I know they can and have been used to create photographs that are better than anything I will ever produce


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## pwp (Aug 16, 2013)

No one lighting setup is going to do it all for you. 

Two or three 600 EX-RT flashes (or similar) with external power-packs are essential kit for a wedding shooter. But for a lot of your portrait & group work, you simply need a lot more horsepower. The go-to kit which is selling it's socks off comes from the makers of Alien Bees, the Einstein. Each head costs around the same as a 600 EX-RT and the modifiers are so sharply priced it defies belief (particularly if you have come out of Profoto or Broncolor) 

Check it out here http://www.paulcbuff.com/index.php

-PW


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## Old Shooter (Aug 16, 2013)

Not to hijack your thread, OP, but this is an area of personal interest and there appears to be a lot of wedding/portrait professionals contributing...

I am torn between a 600 EX-RT on-camera or an ST-E3...

If the ST-E3 had focus assist - it would probably win me over...

But I like the idea of a 600EX up there with focus assist AND providing a very light fill... What I am not thrilled about is its size/weight... Here's hoping Canon comes out with a smaller flash, with focus assist, that can act as an RT master...


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## privatebydesign (Aug 16, 2013)

Old Shooter said:


> Not to hijack your thread, OP, but this is an area of personal interest and there appears to be a lot of wedding/portrait professionals contributing...
> 
> I am torn between a 600 EX-RT on-camera or an ST-E3...
> 
> ...



Get the 600 for on camera, it is a joy to use. Sure it is bigger than an ST-E3-RT, but very similar to a 580 or a 550.


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## Marsu42 (Aug 16, 2013)

Old Shooter said:


> I am torn between a 600 EX-RT on-camera or an ST-E3...



Considering the pricing, I'd go with the 600rt (as most do) - the st-e3 is just the radio control & a lcd that consists of $10 parts you can buy at radio shack, while the flash actually has some high voltage to handle & be reliable at it so it makes more sense to me that it costs €400.


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## unfocused (Aug 16, 2013)

Just a couple of additional thoughts.

I had the Yongnuo 622C flash triggers and four 580EXII and sold them when the refurbished store started carrying the 600 EX. 

The Yongnuo triggers were great, but it was just one more thing to add to the set up, one more set of batteries to keep charged up and one more attachment to synchronize. And, of course, one more thing to check if something wasn't working properly. Having the radio trigger and flash in one unit is a small, but important consideration.

The 580IIs have been holding their prices pretty well and since I bought most of mine used, I was able to sell them for not much of a loss.

Two things I don't like about the 600 RT is that with the 7D (or any camera before 2012) you cannot use the camera's menu screen to set radio transmission and you are limited in the sync speed (1/125th for 7D) with radio transmission.

I have no experience with Yongnuo strobes. The reviews on the internet are mixed. Some people swear by them, but others have complained that some models are susceptible to sudden and early burnout of the flash tube. Although I don't shoot portraits for pay, I am very cognizant of the need to convey credibility and professionalism. After going through the trouble of setting up a formal portrait shoot I would be mortified if my strobe wasn't working. Of course there is no guarantee that a 600 EX won't go down, but the odds are much more slim.

Of course, I'm still bitter that Canon did not release a receiver or transceiver that would allow persons to use the 580II with the 600RT on radio control. Given the price of the ST-E3 RT there is no reason why it could not have been designed as both a transmitter and a receiver.


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## cayenne (Aug 16, 2013)

Old Shooter said:


> Not to hijack your thread, OP, but this is an area of personal interest and there appears to be a lot of wedding/portrait professionals contributing...
> 
> I am torn between a 600 EX-RT on-camera or an ST-E3...
> 
> ...



I'm guessing the next RT units Canon comes out with to pair with the 600's...will not be able to be masters..but will sell for cheaper prices, due to this fact. Something akin to the old 480's I'm guessing...?

C


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## Marsu42 (Aug 16, 2013)

unfocused said:


> Two things I don't like about the 600 RT is that with the 7D (or any camera before 2012) you cannot use the camera's menu screen to set radio transmission and you are limited in the sync speed (1/125th for 7D) with radio transmission.



I'm using 600rts with the 60d, and it works @full x-sync speed and radio transmission just fine, at least so far, though I've only got the set for two weeks. And I'm ok with using the flash lcd to set things, I'd do this anyway rather than search for a submenu item on the camera lcd.

The one thing I'm really annoyed about is that only 2012+ cameras can use group mode w/o any apparent reason, the 60d can use radio, and you can even *set* the group mode function on the flash but the camera keeps resetting it - sounds like a Canon marketing quirk to me, surely this could have been fixed.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 16, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Two things I don't like about the 600 RT is that with the 7D (or any camera before 2012) you cannot use the camera's menu screen to set radio transmission and you are limited in the sync speed (1/125th for 7D) with radio transmission.
> ...



Whilst the pre 2012 bodies will work at original sync speed, they don't offer true full sync via wireless, if you look at the bottom of your images shot at full sync with wireless you will have a band, like this test shot of a white wall (ignore the top right corner). Might not be so bad with crop cameras but with a 1Ds MkIII I get this at 1/250 with wireless. 

More often than not it is not a problem, but it is there.

As for the separate wireless trigger and older/cheaper flash setup, well it is cheaper for very good reason. The 600's are incomparable to anybody that uses speedlites professionally, I used various types of third party triggers for years but bought into the RT system and it is a game changer, even on my pre 2012 bodies. If you shoot for money, especially weddings, buy once and get the RT system, with a complimentary Einstein or two for bigger jobs.


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## unfocused (Aug 16, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



Thanks. To be honest, I have not tried shooting the 7D at a higher sync speed. I made the mistake of reading the manual and it says, _"Also, when using the flash with a film or digital camera released up to 2011, the following restrictions apply.
1. The flash sync speed is 1 increment slower
Check the flash sync speed (X = 1/*** sec.) of your camera, and shoot with a shutter speed up to a maximum of 1 stop slower than the flash sync speed (Example: When X = 1/250 sec., radio transmission wireless shooting is possible from 1/125 sec. to 30 sec.)..."_

I guess I never tested it to see if they were exaggerating or not, since the shots I do are mostly indoors without significant ambient light so 1/125 is not a problem to me. (Hey, I'm still well trained from film days to shoot at 1/60th with strobes)


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## Marsu42 (Aug 18, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Whilst the pre 2012 bodies will work at original sync speed, they don't offer true full sync via wireless, if you look at the bottom of your images shot at full sync with wireless you will have a band, like this test shot of a white wall (ignore the top right corner).



Thanks for the sample shot - is this banding consistent with your 1d3, or does it show only on occasion? It is not a big shadow, but I'd wager to say that I'd have noticed by now if the crop 60d would show such a behavior, at least if the problem occurs not only very seldom.


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## cayenne (Aug 19, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



How are you integrating 600's with Einsteins? How are you getting them work work/trigger together?

I've been curious about that...

Thanks in advance,

cayenne


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 19, 2013)

cayenne said:


> How are you integrating 600's with Einsteins? How are you getting them work work/trigger together?



Built-in optical slave trigger on the Einstens is one easy way.


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## cayenne (Aug 19, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > How are you integrating 600's with Einsteins? How are you getting them work work/trigger together?
> ...



So...the Cyber Commander controls the Einsteins AND the 600's too? You trip the shutter and the cyber commander activates the Einsteins AND the 600EX-RTs?

Or am I confused? PC port?

I'm a noob...please help me to sort out what I'm missing here.

Thank you!!

C


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## gjones5252 (Aug 19, 2013)

Awesome! these are some great replies.
I went ahead and ordered the st-e3 .
As i start using the 600 wirelessly what softbox/reflectors can anyone recommend? i think there is value in only buying stuff once but there is also the reality of a budget.


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## RLPhoto (Aug 20, 2013)

I'll never go back to 580's. They are dead to me with my 600RT's.

You can do most of your weddings and events with just the speedlites but If you want those nice big modifiers, Strobe's are still the way to go.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 20, 2013)

gjones5252 said:


> Awesome! these are some great replies.
> I went ahead and ordered the st-e3 .
> As i start using the 600 wirelessly what softbox/reflectors can anyone recommend? i think there is value in only buying stuff once but there is also the reality of a budget.



I've got several Lastolite softboxes, they're excellent.


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## DarkKnightNine (Aug 20, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> I'll never go back to 580's. They are dead to me with my 600RT's.
> 
> You can do most of your weddings and events with just the speedlites but If you want those nice big modifiers, Strobe's are still the way to go.




I would have to agree. Speedlites (especially the 600EX-RT) are excellent if you know how to use them off camera, but if you want to use large modifiers, by the time you buy enough Speedlites to illuminate them properly, you'd probably be better off with something like the Broncolor Move (Head and battery pack).


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## cayenne (Aug 21, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> No, my camera has a PC port and a hotshoe, on which I mount a 600 or ST-E3-RT to control remote 600's. The PC port is on the side of my camera (see picture), though not all Canon cameras have them, this is connected to the Cyber Commander via a simple cable.
> 
> The hotshoe looks after the 600's, the PC port looks after the Einsteins.



Thank you VERY much for that!!

I have the 5D3 too...I'd not seen or tried to use that port.

Strange, your covers for the ports..seem to split in the middle, mine is one continuous piece of plastic/rubber, with only one attachment to the camera at the upper portion of the panel.

C


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## cayenne (Aug 21, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> gjones5252 said:
> 
> 
> > Awesome! these are some great replies.
> ...



I just got one of the cheaper versions of the Lastolite softboxes, by Impact. So far, looks to be a quality piece of gear....

C


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## digital paradise (Aug 22, 2013)

I had a mixture of Canon, Metz, YN flashes and PCB cybersyncs. I sold everything and picked up 3 600's and the STE3. I've never looked back.


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## roadrunner (Aug 23, 2013)

I'm not afraid to go with non-Canon brands, if they perform as desired. I don't have experience with the Yongnuo, so I can't comment on them, but I have heard of some minor issues. Then again, I've heard great stories as well.

I was coming from a Canon 430EX II, 580EX II, and Pocket Wizard TT5 setup. Everyone knows that was not a cheap setup, and supposedly was a top of the line setup. I had nothing but issues with it. Reliability issues, the AC3 not making adjustments correctly, flashes behaving erradically. I was unhappy for something that cost so much money.

I recently switched to the 600EX-RT and couldn't be happier. I have 4 of them, and they work exactly as they should, every single time. The only thing I miss is the physical dials of the AC3, and I wish canon would put out a controller with physical dials. I don't see the cost to be that big of a deal, as it was cheaper than my Pocket Wizard/430EX II/580EX II setup was, and performs better to boot.

So here is one vote in major support of the Canon 600EX-RT system. Not to take anything away from the Yongnuos.

EDIT: I guess I didn't address your specific use for them. For large reception halls, yes, I find the 600EX-RT's to be underpowered, but you will have that with any flash. That is more of a job for studio strobe. I have lit receptions with them, but I either gang them together, shoot them bare (For backlighting), or bounce them off of the ceiling. I don't really think they have quite enough just to light a big reception hall with just 1 inside of a light modifier. Still an excellent system.


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## gjones5252 (Aug 26, 2013)

Ok awesome it good to know that they are working so well fo reveryone else! I am starting to learn the weakeness so i can be more proficient at using them. I am excited for canon direct refurbished to have them on sale!


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