# Canon will release four new full-frame cameras in 2020 [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 21, 2020)

> We have been working hard trying to piece together a Canon roadmap for 2020 in regards to camera bodies, and we think we have most of it figured out. The following information comes from a few different sources and is mixed with a little bit of common-sense.
> This roadmap is only for full-frame ILC cameras, we have no information on new PowerShot or EOS M camera bodies.
> We have been told that Canon will release four new full-frame cameras in 2020, and we’re pretty certain about three of them.
> *Canon EOS-1D X Mark III*
> ...



Continue reading...


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## neurorx (Jan 21, 2020)

No 5DV or equivalent?


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## Kjsheldo (Jan 21, 2020)

A low megapixel (20ish) Canon camera that can compete with the S1H and (future) A7S is all I want. Video specs of the 1DX3 but in a smaller body with RF Mount, IBIS, and 10-bit 422 in 4k 60fps. Don’t need the 5.5k raw even. But internal raw at 4k would be just fine as well.


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## -pekr- (Jan 21, 2020)

Oh my ... 4 Canon cameras wedding photogs have no need for and no 5DV equivalent. If Canon thinks, that we want to move to the high megapixel nonsense, then they are pretty much wrong. And btw - high speed sports body with low megapixels has absolutly no sense. There is already 1DX III with low-enough resolution, and lower than 20mpx will surely not make 7D II followers happy.

What I also wonder is - if there is any truth to the EOS Rm, which would cost cca 800 USD, is there really still a future for the EOS-M cameras, apart from its relatively smaller bodies and lens?


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## Jim Corbett (Jan 21, 2020)

> We think this is going to be a sports/speed body, perhaps with a lower megapixel sensor and aimed at the Sony A7S line of cameras.


 And it will be aps-c/super 35(Just a hunch). Plus, something speedy-ish needs to be paired with the RF 70-400, so it makes perfect sense.


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## AccipiterQ (Jan 21, 2020)

I know some people here think we're bemoaning the fact that Canon isn't doing exactly what the various parties here want in a camera. But I don't think we're being unreasonable when we ask for a pro-series body that isn't video-focused, since most here are photographers, and for a 7Dii update (whether R series or not). The 1Dx iii is a lovely camera with some interesting video features, but doesn't appear to be much more than a 'side-grade' in photography terms, as opposed to a true upgrade. The 90d is not even in the same league as the 7Dii and is a downgrade in other areas. The 5DV doesn't exist, and apparently is not going to anytime soon. I don't get why Canon wouldn't satisfy bird/sport photographers, with an R series body (or otherwise) and show us what the technology is capable of. Do a 5Dr at the same time for pro-shooters. If they put out a 500 or 600 with a 7Dr I'd buy it tomorrow. 

Maybe the A7S equivalent is a sort-of answer to some of that?


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## Bishop80 (Jan 21, 2020)

While I'm waiting for my 1DX Mark III preorder to be processed, the next camera I would like is a EOS-1FX Mark III, for film. I would love to have the updated AF (head/eye), increased coverage focus points, metering, etc. into a fast 35mm film camera.
Is there a market for such a thing? Of course there is still a market for film, albeit much reduced and perhaps about the same size as that of the specialized Leica "M Monochrom". But still, some small market.

I do, however, think the future of stills capture is video... Full raw video capture at your chosen frame rate from which you can select the best frame that captures the moment. Mind you, this doesn't mean continuous video capture for hours on end; its you, the photographer, pressing the shutter button while the interesting thing occurs. Then afterwards, you pick out the individual frame(s) you want, which are in the same resolution and quality as if you had captured it as a still. A millisecond in facial expressions, in sports action, etc. can make the difference between a good shot and a great shot. You get that flexibility with video capture.


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## puffo25 (Jan 21, 2020)

Hi all, I know we are here under speculation BUT let's see if my thinking is correct. I currently have couple of EF canon lenses that I have been using in the past years along my old EOS 5D Mark II. Now that camera is broken and I am looking for a good substitute!

2 options but do not know which one will be real and release sooner:

1. to buy a dsrl 5D Mark IV update (ie. 5D mark V? or whatever will be named.

or

1b. to buy a mirrorless eos RS (or whenever is called).

The RF lenses looks quite superior to the previous EF series and since I have just couple of EF left I could sell them and move only to RF lenses.... Or stay on the safe side, do not go for RF, keep the EF, buy a 5D Mark IV now and.... do not care about near coming/rumors?

I can wait 6 months. If anyome is in my situation and prefer to shoot as semi-pro mainly landscape, event and picture while I go travel/tourist trips, what solution you would suggest to go?

TIA.
Puffo


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## Jasonmc89 (Jan 21, 2020)

Literally every comment is a moan..


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## slclick (Jan 21, 2020)

puffo25 said:


> Or stay on the safe side, do not go for RF, keep the EF, buy a 5D Mark IV now and.... do not care about near coming/rumors?


Proven, will last for years, will be a nice complement when you do , if you do move to the RF system. Except for those who spend countless hours on GAS and spec sheets, the 5D4 is a remarkable camera, esp for wedding and event shooters. Can't go wrong.


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## Josh Leavitt (Jan 21, 2020)

Will this supposed EOS Rm be full-frame? A $699 or $799 MSRP for a full-frame camera would be quite impressive, even if Canon recycle the 6D II sensor used in the RP. I would assume such a model would have to forego any EVF and probably replace the articulating screen with a smaller tilt screen. Visions of a slightly enlarged EOS M6 come to mind.


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## amorse (Jan 21, 2020)

If Canon is releasing 4 full frame bodies, I would expect one of them to be a 5DV. Canon has consistently released these bodies between 3 and 4 years apart, and the 5D IV was Announced in August 2016, which would line up well for a summer or fall announcement this year. Unless Canon has a transition pathway for 5DIV users to a comparable and new R series body, I would definitely expect a 5DV to be announced this year.


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## JohnC (Jan 21, 2020)

I read a lot of people bemoaning the higher MP version of an R, but as a 5DIV shooter (landscape) I'm not quite sure what else you would do as a mirroless replacement for that. The R already has the resolution of the 5DIV, and for landscape shooting I suspect the biggest gripe is one card slot (which I didn't have till I got the IV anyway). For me personally higher MP and equal or better dynamic range is what I would be looking for in a landscape body. 

I realize perspectives may be different if you're shooting other subjects, but there are a lot of nature/landscape shooters out there, and many of them would opt for more resolution if the performance of the resulting smaller pixels can be up to the level we see in the 5DIV. Judging by the M6 Mark II which I also have and love, I think that possibility is real. 

I guess we will know soon.


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## mclaren777 (Jan 21, 2020)

Come on, Canon!

Give us a 5D5 this year and I'll gladly buy two of them.


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## IcyBergs (Jan 21, 2020)

I think the biggest element of this rumor is the fact that Canon R strategy may be specialized bodies. Could this mean the death of the 5D series, and the elimination of any hope of a similar spec'd body for the R system?

The more I think about it, the more it seems plausible. The 5D only recently (5D3) became an all arounder. It started out as a budget FF, then the 5D2 made it a high res body more than anything.

Guess we'll have to buy 2 bodies to get everything we want, and if you were Canon wouldn't that be what you want?


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## Tom W (Jan 21, 2020)

Time for Tom's prediction. As always, worth a maximum of 2 cents:

1 5-series body at around 32 mpx, with a new sensor, shared with one new R-series body. They will be introduced together, much like the 90D and M6 II were. This will be the 5-level R body and will present 5D4 users with an option to stay in the DSLR world or move to the mirrorless world. The new sensor will be cleaner, the camera will have speed and will be able to do 4K using the full frame. Maybe IBIS, maybe not. 8 FPS with mirror on the 5, 12-15 in live view.

A high-MPX R body, much like the "5-series" body in terms of size/shape, but with lower FPS as a result of the extremely high number of pixels. IBIS on this one.

Also, not mentioned, a new 7D III, utilizing the sensor technology from the 90D. A crop body, of course, expect it to come out along with an M5 II mirrorless. Perhaps IBIS in the mirrorless version.


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## NorskHest (Jan 21, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Oh my ... 4 Canon cameras wedding photogs have no need for and no 5DV equivalent. If Canon thinks, that we want to move to the high megapixel nonsense, then they are pretty much wrong. And btw - high speed sports body with low megapixels has absolutly no sense. There is already 1DX III with low-enough resolution, and lower than 20mpx will surely not make 7D II followers happy.
> 
> What I also wonder is - if there is any truth to the EOS Rm, which would cost cca 800 USD, is there really still a future for the EOS-M cameras, apart from its relatively smaller bodies and lens?


I want high mpix and a low light sports/ video based mirrorless. And no one cares about 7dmkii users, they are not real people.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jan 21, 2020)

The super affordable full frame RF camera... It's literally just a full frame sensor hooked up to a battery and a memory card. You have to keep in a dark fabric bag and quickly and carefully wave it behind a lens whenever you want to take a photo. It will be $300 and budget conscious shooters will rejoice. Tony Northrup will spend *hours* geeking out over this revolutionary new way to take photos. People waiting for a higher end mirrorless will be severely disappointed.


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## slclick (Jan 21, 2020)

It would be nice to see a 5D4 alongside two new ml bodies. Options and choices are great for everyone, even if you don't get exactly what you want, because, when have we ever? It's always choosing the best feature set at the best price point for the job and genre. At this point we are moving towards more 'better' choices than ever before for Canon.


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## NorskHest (Jan 21, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Literally every comment is a moan..


Hahaha it really is. It makes me giggle. They all complain but they will still buy. Sony made a a7s2 a while ago and haven’t replaced it cause it sells canon knows they need to go after that market as well as the high pixel market. People on here bitch about to low of pixels and too many pixels. They complain about one card slot and they complain about cost, it’s like they don’t even go out and play with their toys that are so capable of doing more than they know what to do with but they feel the need to sound like democrats and republicans. If your camera only has one card slot, but a bigger memory card, if files are to big buy a better computer or more storage. Hey now I sound like everyone on this forum.


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## dominic_siu (Jan 21, 2020)

I’m not rush for new R body, just use the R until a more capable body comes out then I will change.


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## Laslen (Jan 21, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> Hahaha it really is. It makes me giggle. They all complain but they will still buy. Sony made a a7s2 a while ago and haven’t replaced it cause it sells canon knows they need to go after that market as well as the high pixel market. People on here bitch about to low of pixels and too many pixels. They complain about one card slot and they complain about cost, it’s like they don’t even go out and play with their toys that are so capable of doing more than they know what to do with but they feel the need to sound like democrats and republicans. If your camera only has one card slot, but a bigger memory card, if files are to big buy a better computer or more storage. Hey now I sound like everyone on this forum.


I don't think you understand the benefit of having 2 card slots, lol. It's not more storage.


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## slclick (Jan 21, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> Hahaha it really is. It makes me giggle. They all complain but they will still buy. Sony made a a7s2 a while ago and haven’t replaced it cause it sells canon knows they need to go after that market as well as the high pixel market. People on here bitch about to low of pixels and too many pixels. They complain about one card slot and they complain about cost, it’s like they don’t even go out and play with their toys that are so capable of doing more than they know what to do with but they feel the need to sound like democrats and republicans. If your camera only has one card slot, but a bigger memory card, if files are to big buy a better computer or more storage. Hey now I sound like everyone on this forum.


That's ridiculous. There have been many very positive comments here. In this day and age of remarkable cameras offered by multiple brands, the choices and quality levels at various price points make it a wonderful time to be involved in the craft.

Still, in agreement....
new technology never makes your current gear vanish magically. GAS is the single driver of complaints and whines. You have to wonder if these folks ever shoot.


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## NorskHest (Jan 21, 2020)

Laslen said:


> I don't think you understand the benefit of having 2 card slots, lol. It's not more storage.


Elaborate please. Why does a ARRI have one slot, or a red, or a C200 or so many other cameras have only one? Could it be that there isn’t always a need for two? Or that media and writing data become more reliable, or that card have come down in price and contain more storage? One card slot is not going to slow you down or hinder you. Is having two slots nice? Sure but it is not going to hinder you. Was only one role of film sufficient for alllllll those film cameras?


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## slclick (Jan 21, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> Elaborate please. Why does a ARRI have one slot, or a red, or a C200 or so many other cameras have only one? Could it be that there isn’t always a need for two? Or that media and writing data become more reliable, or that card have come down in price and contain more storage? One card slot is not going to slow you down or hinder you. Is having two slots nice? Sure but it is not going to hinder you. Was only one role of film sufficient for alllllll those film cameras?


I see both sides of the discussion but after using nothing but a 2 slot body for 7 years, it is a bit hard to go to one. There are a multitude of methods and reasons for two slots and shooting styles/methods and genres drive these reasons. It is unreasonable to tell another they should want or have this or that, especially when the technology is present. If we all shot alike and had the same needs Canon would have gone not much further than the 300D. Arguing about slots? Please....


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jan 21, 2020)

Many of us have been waiting a long time for Canon to make a serius attempt at a world class miirrorless body. For me, this is they’re last shot at it. If the new R body is just another stop gap designed by the marketing managers than I’m done waiting. The 1DX Mark III is what a Canon body looks like when they try their best. The EOS R is what they look like when they don’t. This new body had better be a lot closer to a 1DX than an R. Just my opinion of course.


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## AprilForever (Jan 21, 2020)

7 D MK III. Thus I desire.


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## amorse (Jan 21, 2020)

JohnC said:


> I read a lot of people bemoaning the higher MP version of an R, but as a 5DIV shooter (landscape) I'm not quite sure what else you would do as a mirroless replacement for that. The R already has the resolution of the 5DIV, and for landscape shooting I suspect the biggest gripe is one card slot (which I didn't have till I got the IV anyway). For me personally higher MP and equal or better dynamic range is what I would be looking for in a landscape body.
> 
> I realize perspectives may be different if you're shooting other subjects, but there are a lot of nature/landscape shooters out there, and many of them would opt for more resolution if the performance of the resulting smaller pixels can be up to the level we see in the 5DIV. Judging by the M6 Mark II which I also have and love, I think that possibility is real.
> 
> I guess we will know soon.


Yea, I'm keen for the high resolution model, but likely too broke to buy it (until I justify it to myself). My 5D IV is delivering what it needs to, but I sure would love some extra cropping power.

How do you like your M6II? I've been toying with the idea of creating an ultra light camera setup for landscape photography on longer backpacking trips, and the M6II is close to the top of my list. No mater how I tinker with my 5D IV setup, I'm struggling to reduce weight down to a place where I'm really satisfied with both lens range I can carry vs weight. M6II is really appealing because it offloads a lot of stuff I don't really use (including the viewfinder), but I'm a bit hesitant because I'm not sure of the lens quality... How do you like the M6II?


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## Danglin52 (Jan 21, 2020)

If the high MPX R has the following

Weather sealing equal / better than the 5dIV
5mpx, high refresh rate EVF
10-12 FPS w/50 shot RAW buffer
Good AF tracking
Then I don‘t care about a 5dIV direct replacement

I sold my 5dIV last year at a good price and can go a different direction. I still have my 1dx II and can hold that for wildlife. The only thing holding me to Canon is I love the lenses. With the M6II, Canon finally has sensor tech that will improve image quality but can’t seem to release a competitive body. I would be happy sticking with the 1dx II/III, but I want a robust all-rounder with decent specs And the new sensor tech. I don’t want to carry 3 cameras just because they want to differentiate the market


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## bellorusso (Jan 21, 2020)

EOS 3 mirrorless version with no sports in mind but studio and wildlife... mmm... would be great.


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## Ozarker (Jan 21, 2020)

Gonna say it again: The ASP-c Rebels are dead. M an FF will be it.


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## Drcampbellicu (Jan 21, 2020)

Really disappointed and hope this isn’t true

If this news is true then canon doesn’t have their mirrorless tech ready yet and is hence stalling. They have high end glass and their is plenty of demand for high end bodies.
It seems that all they can do is get the high megapixel model out. I worry that speed and data throughput with mirrorless has been an issue if this rumor is true.

the Rii or high speed R with decent resolution is important


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## deleteme (Jan 21, 2020)

What has been ignored for all this commentary on specs is the shutter.

I am still waiting for a shutter from Canon on its 5 series cameras and its R series mirrorless to have a flash sync of 1/250 sec and not sound like hedge trimmers when going off.

The current 1/200 sync speed is only just acceptable with 1/160 really the top safe sync sped in studio with radio triggers. 
The shutter sound, while not a huge issue, is cheap and noisy compared to the competition. Making it sound like the Fuji X-H1 or the Panasonic S-1 would go a long way to making the body feel more of a quality item.


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## richardskins (Jan 21, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> Hahaha it really is. It makes me giggle. They all complain but they will still buy. Sony made a a7s2 a while ago and haven’t replaced it cause it sells canon knows they need to go after that market as well as the high pixel market. People on here bitch about to low of pixels and too many pixels. They complain about one card slot and they complain about cost, it’s like they don’t even go out and play with their toys that are so capable of doing more than they know what to do with but they feel the need to sound like democrats and republicans. If your camera only has one card slot, but a bigger memory card, if files are to big buy a better computer or more storage. Hey now I sound like everyone on this forum.



I take it you have never photographed a wedding or had a card failure?


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## Ozarker (Jan 21, 2020)

dominic_siu said:


> I’m not rush for new R body, just use the R until a more capable body comes out then I will change.


Love my R. No rush for another body in my case. More interested in more glass at this point.


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## Kit. (Jan 21, 2020)

Bishop80 said:


> While I'm waiting for my 1DX Mark III preorder to be processed, the next camera I would like is a EOS-1FX Mark III, for film. I would love to have the updated AF (head/eye), increased coverage focus points, metering, etc. into a fast 35mm film camera.
> Is there a market for such a thing?


With less than 2 seconds of the frame buffer?


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## tron (Jan 21, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> If the high MPX R has the following
> 
> Weather sealing equal / better than the 5dIV
> 5mpx, high refresh rate EVF
> ...


I see you mention M6II. Why not try 90D then for wildlife. OK not a pro super 7D like body but neither M6II is.
That way you could have M6II's sensor and DSLR's ergonomics for wildlife (enjoying at the same time the benefits of OVF which for wildlife is a plus) ?


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## slclick (Jan 21, 2020)

Kit. said:


> With less than 2 seconds of the frame buffer?


Was that a tongue in cheek digital to analog reference or a lack of understanding of how a film body works? You just can't get a good picture of tenor and connotation with typing.


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## Tremotino (Jan 21, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Literally every comment is a moan..


Like being in Germany.


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## tron (Jan 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Love my R. No rush for another body in my case. More interested in more glass at this point.


Me too. We can have 2.8L IS zooms (all 3 of them) and no need for AFMA. It is not as flexible as a DSLR but for static or slow moving sujects there is no issue.


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## Ozarker (Jan 21, 2020)

tron said:


> Me too. We can have 2.8L IS zooms (all 3 of them) and no need for AFMA. It is not as flexible as a DSLR but for static or slow moving sujects there is no issue.


Waiting on that 135mm


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## tron (Jan 21, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Oh my ... 4 Canon cameras wedding photogs have no need for and no 5DV equivalent. If Canon thinks, that we want to move to the high megapixel nonsense, then they are pretty much wrong. And btw - high speed sports body with low megapixels has absolutly no sense. There is already 1DX III with low-enough resolution, and lower than 20mpx will surely not make 7D II followers happy.
> 
> What I also wonder is - if there is any truth to the EOS Rm, which would cost cca 800 USD, is there really still a future for the EOS-M cameras, apart from its relatively smaller bodies and lens?


I do hope one of these is THE 5DV.

You are quite correct regarding the fact there is already 1DXIII with low-enough resolution but it costs a lot so maybe Canon would make a cheaper body - Which I do not think as a must assuming we can always downscale from a 30mpixel camera and improve low light performance.


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## NorskHest (Jan 21, 2020)

richardskins said:


> I take it you have never photographed a wedding or had a card failure?


Since you all are missing the point I’ll reiterate. Tech is better than ever and canon knows this. You all want light weight, this pixel amount or that amount of pixels or 4K or no k or two slots or the other long list of complaints. Canon and other company’s are not dumb. They know more than most of us. They try to deliver a product that meets most of the needs. If you get only one slot it’s because they know something you don’t. Writing data and cards are so good now that company’s are taking that into consideration to give all of you who complain about everything all that you can want and dream of in a small little package. And too answer your questions I have never had a card failure. I used to do weddings but I would rather get kicked in junk than photograph a wedding.


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## M. D. Vaden of Oregon (Jan 21, 2020)

This latest "rumor" is more what I anticipated Canon really doing. Looking forward to buying another. Below, EOS
R & Canon RF 50mm 1.2 / www.mdvaden.com/redwoods.shtml


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## privatebydesign (Jan 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Gonna say it again: The ASP-c Rebels are dead. M an FF will be it.


You mIght well believe that looking from your perspective of being a keen enthusiast with a very nice collection of new L glass, the bean counters at Canon might well disagree with you though. The numbers they look at tell a very different story as for many years the Rebel line has been the cash cow that keeps giving, don’t forget the USA market is accounting for a smaller and smaller percentage of world wide sales and emerging markets like China and India are not so quick to dismiss DSLR’s and those markets are particularly price sensitive. Canon can make DSLR Rebels surprisingly cheaply and still make money.

Rebels cost very little to develop and they have a remarkable world wide reputation/brand recognition.


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## Smmle (Jan 21, 2020)

Waiting for an 6D III EQUIVALENT.


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## Go Wild (Jan 21, 2020)

Hoping for good news! I am waiting to go into the market to get the High MP EOS R. It would be perfect to "marry" my 1dxmkII! Really don´t care too much about a replacement of the EOS R (EOS RII) and I don´t think it would happen soon...But well.....market is changing and so is Canon. 

I think is very clear that we will have the High resolution camera in the February and for me couldn´t be more perfect! From my point of view, it is also very unlikely that we have an "entry, entry" below the EOS RP....Unless Canon want to kill the M6 II sales....It just doesn´t make sense at all! Specially because that would also kill RP sales! I dont believe that! My prediction is that Canon will launch in Feb the EOS Rs and in May they will launch a low MP camera for video purposes. Its still a hybrid but directed to video, creators and Vloggers. Just like the 7S line. And after this, maybe only in 2021 (to give time to 1dx mkIII to sell) they will launch the EOS Rx. Only after that they will put in the market the upgrade of the first EOS R, maybe 2022 or end of 2021. It just doesn´t make too much sense to get an upgrade of that camera. They had made the firmware update not long ago and the camera now is much better. They need to give time to that camera. 

So for me it´s this: 

- EOS Rs (high MP) February
- EOS Rv (or something like that for video and low light performance) May
- EOS Rx (1dx mirrorless for first half of 2021) 
- EOS R II (maybe end of 2021)


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## degos (Jan 21, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> Canon and other company’s are not dumb. They know more than most of us. They try to deliver a product that meets most of the needs. If you get only one slot it’s because they know something you don’t.



I disagree. They don't know my needs because they've never asked. But they do know that the can make compromises on their products and still sell them, for now, because of the cost of changing systems.

If the industry had adopted a standard electrofocus mount in the 1980s then competition in the field of bodies would be very different because they'd actually have to address user requirements or suffer defection.


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## amorse (Jan 21, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> Really disappointed and hope this isn’t true
> 
> If this news is true then canon doesn’t have their mirrorless tech ready yet and is hence stalling. They have high end glass and their is plenty of demand for high end bodies.
> It seems that all they can do is get the high megapixel model out. I worry that speed and data throughput with mirrorless has been an issue if this rumor is true.
> ...


I don't think it's a throughput issue - the M6ii is already doing 14 fps on a 32MP sensor, and the 1Dxiii has an unlimited buffer at 16 fps recording both RAW and JPG at the same time, and can crank up to 20 fps in live view. Both cases should be a heck of a lot of throughput.

I think if anything, they're slow to release a mirrorless 1Dx style camera because they want the 1Dxiii to get its time in the spotlight, and there are no big whites in the R ecosystem yet. I think if they released their ultra high-speed body on RF the first complaint may be people want 400mm 500mm and 600mm RF lenses to go with it, and I bet those will take some time to develop and release. I'm not saying it's the right choice, but I can understand why Canon would delay if they wanted to preserve the success of other bodies. When Canon releases a true flagship mirrorless, they'll want all the fanfare they can get, so leaving gaps in the RF lens lineup may be the issue they're really concerned about.


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## Tremotino (Jan 21, 2020)

I think canon will release an apsc R, the 7d successor, the 5dV and the equivalent ml late this year, the high mpx ml and this low light ml camera. 
The question is, which of them will have ibis? If ibis is coming, the combination of is and ibis will be marvelous and force all ibis camera buyers to buy canon again, because ibis + is is better than only ibis or is, because will always want more.


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## Ozarker (Jan 21, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> You mIght well believe that looking from your perspective of being a keen enthusiast with a very nice collection of new L glass, the bean counters at Canon might well disagree with you though. The numbers they look at tell a very different story as for many years the Rebel line has been the cash cow that keeps giving, don’t forget the USA market is accounting for a smaller and smaller percentage of world wide sales and emerging markets like China and India are not so quick to dismiss DSLR’s and those markets are particularly price sensitive. Canon can make DSLR Rebels surprisingly cheaply and still make money.
> 
> Rebels cost very little to develop and they have a remarkable world wide reputation/brand recognition.


I just assume the M line will take over. I’m not sure, but I think they are in the Rebel price range. With a possible new ultra low dollar FF on the horizon, I just figured the Rebels were *******.


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## Bishop80 (Jan 21, 2020)

Kit. said:


> With less than 2 seconds of the frame buffer?


Specifically, I am interested in having the latest advancements in Autofocus and metering, like face/head/eye tracking, better predictive AF, and advanced metering, brought into a film camera.
There's no technical reason why 35mm film canisters can't grow in size to accommodate more than 36 frames, to make shooting at higher frame rates more practical.


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## Danglin52 (Jan 21, 2020)

tron said:


> I see you mention M6II. Why not try 90D then for wildlife. OK not a pro super 7D like body but neither M6II is.
> That way you could have M6II's sensor and DSLR's ergonomics for wildlife (enjoying at the same time the benefits of OVF which for wildlife is a plus) ?



I took a 90d to YNP/GTNP last year. I found that the AF would start to “lag“ and was inconsistent on medium bursts. Lack of real weather sealing is also an issue. I like the M6II over the 90d just wish they had done a weather sealed m5 II body. I hate the external EVFon M6II.


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## Nelu (Jan 21, 2020)

M. D. Vaden of Oregon said:


> This latest "rumor" is more what I anticipated Canon really doing. Looking forward to buying another. Below, EOS
> R & Canon RF 50mm 1.2 / www.mdvaden.com/redwoods.shtml
> 
> View attachment 188311


Oh, there was a tree in that photo as well!


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## unfocused (Jan 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I just assume the M line will take over. I’m not sure, but I think they are in the Rebel price range. With a possible new ultra low dollar FF on the horizon, I just figured the Rebels were *******.


We are all ******* -- eventually. But the Rebels and APS-C generally have a lot of life left in them. Many consumers prefer the "real camera" look and feel of DSLRs and the flexibility of the EF-S and EF lens system cannot be discounted. Unfortunately, Canon sacrificed that flexibility with the R and M systems. Think about the tried and true 70-300 mm kit lenses. Probably one of the most popular focal lengths ever made. There is simply nothing like it that will be available in a lens that fits both the R and M.


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## unfocused (Jan 21, 2020)

I think people need to quit thinking in terms of DSLR equivalents, as in "I want a mirrorless 5D." I suspect Canon does not feel bound by the product segmentation that they developed for DSLRs, but is instead planning to slice and dice the mirrorless market in its own unique ways.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 21, 2020)

neurorx said:


> No 5DV or equivalent?


If a EOS R MK II comes out and it has more features as well as a new name as rumored, it may end up being the replacement for the 5D MK IV. I don't think Canon has internally committed to a 5D MK IV release, but I am sure they are developing one in the event they do decide to release it. I believe it all revolves around sales of mirrorless bodies and lenses. There is more profit in the RF lenses (Canon states that in their financial reports) so they will be going with the profit. Certainly, expect a few EOS camera bodies, but when??


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## geffy (Jan 21, 2020)

I do not know why people dismiss the M series, its perfect run in tandem with full frame, the samyang fish eye, 11 - 22 complement any carry about kit and is the easiest way to practice non lens changing shooting without looking like an Adorama whore
1. As a carry about and travel camera
2. As a second body wide angle with the 11 - 22
3. As a tele enhancing crop body


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## Edward Winter (Jan 21, 2020)

Every photographer I know is perched on the fence ready to jump ship to Sony (or Fuji) if Canon doesn't drop an A7RIV equivalent in an R series mirrorless format before spring wedding season kicks off. GEEZ. Whats the dealio Canon? Nobody wants a new DSLR format 5D MKV. Though it would be WONDERFUL if one of the new R bodies was a Sony a7III equivalent (with 2 card slots) and priced accordingly.


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## tron (Jan 21, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I took a 90d to YNP/GTNP last year. I found that the AF would start to “lag“ and was inconsistent on medium bursts. Lack of real weather sealing is also an issue. I like the M6II over the 90d just wish they had done a weather sealed m5 II body. I hate the external EVFon M6II.


Since I have a 7DII (but use mostly 5DsR) for birding but I am thinking about getting 90D sometime in the future can you please clarify a little more? Like: Which kind of lenses did you use? (I use 100-400 but mostly 400DOII and 500II) Was the AF inconsistent in high fps AI servo cases mostly?

Any info would be welcome...


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## Rumourhasit (Jan 21, 2020)

A lower priced eosR camera than the eosRP will be a gift to all Canon hater. The YouTube reviewers would have a field day ripping apart canon and anyone defending them. If they don’t release a mirror less 7Diii or a 5D they will piss off any remaining Canon support that want a decent canon alternative to the Sony A7 whatever


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## privatebydesign (Jan 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I just assume the M line will take over. I’m not sure, but I think they are in the Rebel price range. With a possible new ultra low dollar FF on the horizon, I just figured the Rebels were *******.


Well there is definitely a trend, but to pronounce death I believe is premature  

You can buy a new Rebel kit from B&H today for $349, the cheapest M kit is $479, that is 37% more expensive in a market dominated by price sensitivity. I do not believe Canon are losing money on either though they probably aren’t making much on them.

The Rebel range has an enormous choice of secondhand lenses in all focal lengths and price brackets, the M range has very few and they are not cheap.

I do not see the M range ever being an effective Rebel replacement, the R range is decades away from having the ubiquity of the EOS range even if they end up making APS-C sized R’s.


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## geffy (Jan 21, 2020)

dominic_siu said:


> I’m not rush for new R body, just use the R until a more capable body comes out then I will change.


The economics is quite straightforward for me, it will be 6 months until the one i want comes out and another year before it becomes affordable, a 1500 R covers a hole until then and provides an extra second body in the long run


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## LesC (Jan 21, 2020)

So no EOSR MKII and the cheaper than the RP body surely must be an APSC version?? Not complaining though; very happy with my R & RP


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## Ozarker (Jan 21, 2020)

Edward Winter said:


> Every photographer I know is perched on the fence ready to jump ship to Sony (or Fuji) if Canon doesn't drop an A7RIV equivalent in an R series mirrorless format before spring wedding season kicks off. GEEZ. Whats the dealio Canon? Nobody wants a new DSLR format 5D MKV. Though it would be WONDERFUL if one of the new R bodies was a Sony a7III equivalent (with 2 card slots) and priced accordingly.


Actually, Ed, if you'd been around for longer than your single post around here you'd know that your "nobody wants" comment is nothing more than silliness and ignorance. Go buy the Sony. All your friends too.


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## geffy (Jan 21, 2020)

Edward Winter said:


> Every photographer I know is perched on the fence ready to jump ship to Sony (or Fuji) if Canon doesn't drop an A7RIV equivalent in an R series mirrorless format before spring wedding season kicks off. GEEZ. Whats the dealio Canon? Nobody wants a new DSLR format 5D MKV. Though it would be WONDERFUL if one of the new R bodies was a Sony a7III equivalent (with 2 card slots) and priced accordingly.


The type of photographers that jump ship tend to just do that, its too much hassle for someone that takes pictures and they just accept the short comings as the end pic is acceptable with any modern camera, jumpers tend to be on elastic and careful questioning of their photographic career reveals a history of such and a mantra of gear.


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## JohnC (Jan 21, 2020)

amorse said:


> Yea, I'm keen for the high resolution model, but likely too broke to buy it (until I justify it to myself). My 5D IV is delivering what it needs to, but I sure would love some extra cropping power.
> 
> How do you like your M6II? I've been toying with the idea of creating an ultra light camera setup for landscape photography on longer backpacking trips, and the M6II is close to the top of my list. No mater how I tinker with my 5D IV setup, I'm struggling to reduce weight down to a place where I'm really satisfied with both lens range I can carry vs weight. M6II is really appealing because it offloads a lot of stuff I don't really use (including the viewfinder), but I'm a bit hesitant because I'm not sure of the lens quality... How do you like the M6II?



I love the M6II. I bought it primarily for the purpose you just mentioned (light travel kit) but frankly I find I'm shooting it far more than I did (or do) shoot my 5DIV. I take it with me on a walk nearly every day. Now lens choices...

I got the 18-150 kit, and the 18-150 is on a shelf... not impressed with the image quality I got out of it ALTHOUGH it is better than not having one and can be made to work. I'm just accustomed to shooting Zeiss glass so I guess I'm a little spoiled by that.

I have both the Sigma 56 and the 30mm contempary primes for EF-M and I like them both. They are not quite as small as the EFM lenses but the quality is very good, very satisfied with them both.

The EF-M 11-22 is a keeper as well. I think IQ could be a tad better but it isn't bad at all and visibly superior to the 18-150 so that one remains a part of the kit.

The EF-M 22 is another gem, nice and sharp and SMALL...definite keeper.

The only hole I have for a light travel kit is the telephoto zoom. More than likely I will opt for an EF or EFS 55-200 or 250. I haven't evaluated either yet from a quality standpoint but I think they are supposed to be better than the 18-150 (hard to find direct comparisons). Outside of that it will be the 11-22, the Sigma 30, and whatever I decide on the telephoto zoom. That will be a tidy kit for work travel, or extended backpacking.

Daily however, I find myself shooting the Sigma primes (56 mainly), an adapted Zeiss 135 APO which is a dream but is manual focus of course, 180mmL macro, and a 100-400L v1 from time to time.

With good light the image quality is right up there, plenty of highlight recovery and the low light noise isn't too bad. It isn't as good as the 5DIV but it's better than I ever expected it would be...and so far I haven't seen any banding at all. Good light I can shoot up to ISO 6400 if needed and be pretty happy. While I haven't done an extensive amount of landscape work with it yet... I'm confident it will get me good images.

btw - I haven't taken the EVF off the camera in quite some time, I find it pretty good.

***take a look at my Flickr and you will find some images to take a look at.


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## Del Paso (Jan 21, 2020)

Nelu said:


> Oh, there was a tree in that photo as well!


Where did you see a tree????


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## Del Paso (Jan 21, 2020)

Edward Winter said:


> Every photographer I know is perched on the fence ready to jump ship to Sony (or Fuji) if Canon doesn't drop an A7RIV equivalent in an R series mirrorless format before spring wedding season kicks off. GEEZ. Whats the dealio Canon? Nobody wants a new DSLR format 5D MKV. Though it would be WONDERFUL if one of the new R bodies was a Sony a7III equivalent (with 2 card slots) and priced accordingly.


Here we go again, welcome to Wonderful Sony World Ship -Jumping.
PS: I'm just one of many nobodies...


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## Hector1970 (Jan 21, 2020)

Bishop80 said:


> While I'm waiting for my 1DX Mark III preorder to be processed, the next camera I would like is a EOS-1FX Mark III, for film. I would love to have the updated AF (head/eye), increased coverage focus points, metering, etc. into a fast 35mm film camera.
> Is there a market for such a thing? Of course there is still a market for film, albeit much reduced and perhaps about the same size as that of the specialized Leica "M Monochrom". But still, some small market.
> 
> I do, however, think the future of stills capture is video... Full raw video capture at your chosen frame rate from which you can select the best frame that captures the moment. Mind you, this doesn't mean continuous video capture for hours on end; its you, the photographer, pressing the shutter button while the interesting thing occurs. Then afterwards, you pick out the individual frame(s) you want, which are in the same resolution and quality as if you had captured it as a still. A millisecond in facial expressions, in sports action, etc. can make the difference between a good shot and a great shot. You get that flexibility with video capture.


Just an aside on your one.
Maybe there are cameras there now but I have Instax camera with the Polaroid type film. I was really surprised at the time you couldn’t get a combined Instant film and digital camera. A camera phone lens would do.


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## RobbieHat (Jan 21, 2020)

JohnC said:


> I read a lot of people bemoaning the higher MP version of an R, but as a 5DIV shooter (landscape) I'm not quite sure what else you would do as a mirroless replacement for that. The R already has the resolution of the 5DIV, and for landscape shooting I suspect the biggest gripe is one card slot (which I didn't have till I got the IV anyway). For me personally higher MP and equal or better dynamic range is what I would be looking for in a landscape body.
> 
> I realize perspectives may be different if you're shooting other subjects, but there are a lot of nature/landscape shooters out there, and many of them would opt for more resolution if the performance of the resulting smaller pixels can be up to the level we see in the 5DIV. Judging by the M6 Mark II which I also have and love, I think that possibility is real.
> 
> I guess we will know soon.


As someone who mostly shoots landscapes and some wildlife, I would comment that the desire for a 5DSR replacement is as good or better resolution (50 mp today going up to something higher) but as importantly better DR, noise control, etc. The only reason I like the two card slots is I can buy cheaper cards and not have to swap them in the field. I don't shoot to two cards (maybe I am crazy). 

When I want to use this body for wildlife I need better FPS, focusing system, better high ISO/low light handling and IBIS/eye focus would be great. I use mostly canon glass so IBIS is not critical as most of my lenses are stabilized, but when I do pick up a third party lens IBIS would be nice. 

The 5DSR sucks at low light and the focusing system is pretty bad. 

I seriously considered the Mark IV as a wildlife rig but decided to wait to see if anything would come out to replace the 7DII as either a crop sensor or as a replacement for the 5DSR with a crop mode. 

Hoping the new higher res camera will address some of these needs (would be wildly happy if it addressed most of them)! If not, I would still be in the market for a wildlife rig. A low MP, video centric camera would not fit the bill. I would get the 1D Mark III before that type of setup.


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## jdavidse (Jan 21, 2020)

So the rumored R II just evaporated just like that?
2 card slots
3-40 megapixels
7 or 8 fps

This isn't hard Canon! Meanwhile, their RF lens lineup looks exactly like every wedding photographer's wish list. But no body to go with all those wedding lenses?


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## -pekr- (Jan 21, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> Elaborate please. Why does a ARRI have one slot, or a red, or a C200 or so many other cameras have only one? Could it be that there isn’t always a need for two? Or that media and writing data become more reliable, or that card have come down in price and contain more storage? One card slot is not going to slow you down or hinder you. Is having two slots nice? Sure but it is not going to hinder you. Was only one role of film sufficient for alllllll those film cameras?



Do we really need to read stuff like that? You name professional film cameras, cameras, which are being mounted on a professional rigs, having external recorders most of the time. Your whole point and comparison to something like recent or upcoming Canon R cameras is simply completly thrown out of the base. E.g. no wedding photographer/camera man is going to have identical workflow to Arri or Red users you've just mentioned.


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## Aaron D (Jan 21, 2020)

OK my own personal observation on the slot issue. I was nervous about having only one, but I've been shooting professionally with an R since it came out and I honestly don't think about it anymore. I've still got my 5Div as a backup, but for 10 years I've never had a card failure. I've had to replace a circuit board in the iv, though. That tells me a memory card is in the same approximate neighborhood of electronics IN GENERAL for reliability--and why not? Circuit boards and memory chips are not so totally different, I think... I know that's a small sample population, but just saying.

And yeah I like the R better than the 5Div. For the focusing mainly, but size and compactness, too. I use TS-E lenses mostly.......


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## Besisika (Jan 21, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Oh my ... 4 Canon cameras wedding photogs have no need for and no 5DV equivalent. If Canon thinks, that we want to move to the high megapixel nonsense, then they are pretty much wrong. And btw - high speed sports body with low megapixels has absolutly no sense. There is already 1DX III with low-enough resolution, and lower than 20mpx will surely not make 7D II followers happy.
> 
> What I also wonder is - if there is any truth to the EOS Rm, which would cost cca 800 USD, is there really still a future for the EOS-M cameras, apart from its relatively smaller bodies and lens?





-pekr- said:


> Oh my ... 4 Canon cameras wedding photogs have no need for and no 5DV equivalent. If Canon thinks, that we want to move to the high megapixel nonsense, then they are pretty much wrong. And btw - high speed sports body with low megapixels has absolutly no sense. There is already 1DX III with low-enough resolution, and lower than 20mpx will surely not make 7D II followers happy.
> 
> What I also wonder is - if there is any truth to the EOS Rm, which would cost cca 800 USD, is there really still a future for the EOS-M cameras, apart from its relatively smaller bodies and lens?


Everybody is indeed different. I like the fact that you expressed your need otherwise, people like me would assume that you do not exist. 
I have been waiting for these two categories of camera since 6D II. I didn't go for any of the 5D after 5D III because I do not believe in DSLR lens investment any longer. It is time to move to mirrorless. At least that what I think. 
As far as the specs, I actually need one high megapixel for my portrait work and one low megapixel for my video work (relatively small for gimbal low light work). A general purpose camera is of no upgrade for me. I will skip on the 1DX III so that I could move to these two at the end of the year or beginning of next year. This rumor has been my best news since 4 -5 years ago. I hope, they will materialize.
Again, everybody's need is different.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 21, 2020)

richardskins said:


> I take it you have never photographed a wedding or had a card failure?


I've photographed a good few weddings, I'll happily do it with a camera with a single card slot. No I have never had a card fail, I have lost them (which is my failure not the cards).


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## dwarven (Jan 21, 2020)

What makes a good image?

70% photographer
20% lens
10% camera body

I'm sure these will all be great bodies. Don't sweat it too much if the specific model you want isn't in the pipeline.


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## Lee Jay (Jan 21, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> Hahaha it really is. It makes me giggle. They all complain but they will still buy.



You want to bet?

I have a 7DII, and a lens-kit built around it. I won't buy one of these, probably ever. All I'm interested in is a true 7DII upgrade, and that either means an SLR or a mirrorless with EVF technology far superior to anything I've tried - which is most things except the A9 (can't find one in my state).


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## Lee Jay (Jan 21, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I've photographed a good few weddings, I'll happily do it with a camera with a single card slot. No I have never had a card fail, I have lost them (which is my failure not the cards).



I have had a card fail at a paid-shooting event. Not fun. I did get back all but one image taken, but it took a couple of months.


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## addola (Jan 21, 2020)

We already have the 1DX Mark III announced, so my guess would be two EF & two RF

1DX Mark III --- We know about this one. 
Canon 5D Mark V (EF-mount) --- To compete with Nikon D850
Canon RF (high megapixel) --- to compete with Sony A7R IV, Nikon Z7, and Panasonic S1R
Canon RF (low megapixel, Video centric) --- to compete with Sony A7s line


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## Lee Jay (Jan 21, 2020)

dwarven said:


> What makes a good image?
> 
> 70% photographer
> 20% lens
> ...



That's total bunk.

It depends HUGELY on what your subjects are. I like to make fun of people saying things like, "a good photographer can make good pictures with a cell phone camera", without specifying the types of subjects to be photographed. Deep sky astrophotography? Airshow photography? Don't think so. Modest focal length pictures in good light? No problem.

See the issue here?


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## dwarven (Jan 21, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> That's total bunk.
> 
> It depends HUGELY on what your subjects are. I like to make fun of people saying things like, "a good photographer can make good pictures with a cell phone camera", without specifying the types of subjects to be photographed. Deep sky astrophotography? Airshow photography? Don't think so. Modest focal length pictures in good light? No problem.
> 
> See the issue here?



Any DSLR or mirrorless camera made within the last 5 years can do any of those things. I'm not saying the body is unimportant, but people definitely place too much emphasis on it.


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## tron (Jan 21, 2020)

addola said:


> We already have the 1DX Mark III announced, so my guess would be two EF & two RF
> 
> 1DX Mark III --- We know about this one.
> Canon 5D Mark V (EF-mount) --- To compete with Nikon D850
> ...


Actually we need 5DmarkV (assuming it will stay at 30mpixel just like 1DxIII stayed at 20) to compete with Nikon D780 and 5DsRmarkII to compete with Nikon D850. 
Otherwise we compare apples to oranges.


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## Lee Jay (Jan 21, 2020)

dwarven said:


> Any DSLR or mirrorless camera made within the last 5 years can do any of those things. I'm not saying the body is unimportant, but people definitely place too much emphasis on it.



So, if you need a modern ("within the last 5 years") body, then the body is mighty important. And so is the lens, because you can't do this type of photography *at all* without the correct optics. So they're awfully important too.

I would argue the entire idea of your percentages is dead wrong. You can't do the job without all three elements, making them all crucial to getting the job done. "Crucial" because you can't do the job lacking any one of them.


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## unfocused (Jan 21, 2020)

I'm actually a little confused by the rumor. Are we talking four or five? The headline says four new full frame bodies but the text refers to five: 1DX III, High Resolution R, Bargain R, Mystery R and a 5DV.


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## TracerHD (Jan 21, 2020)

Just a few thoughts, at least I haven't read any comments so far.
What we have:

RP - entry camera
R - mid class camera
Ra - specific usage
Note: I would place the R there because of the price point. Nevertheless I see the R as an "Live-View" equivalent of the 5D IV. If you breaks down the performance of the 5D IV to the Live-View the R is in much points stronger in exchange for the battery life.

These are possibilities of cameras which are maybe missing:

lower cost RP that now ( < 1000 )
RP II - early upgrade, maybe just a few improvments like other battery ( R battery)
R II - 2 ways maybe
stay in mid class or
moved to professional usage

RV - 5D V equivalent which would be released half a year later than a 5D V
Several specific cameras:
Rc - for video
Rs - for sports
RL - for landscape

in the case the R getting moved by update ( R II ) from "mid class" to pro class" there is a chance the RP moves to "mid class" automaticaly by releasing a "lower cost than RP" camera.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 21, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I have had a card fail at a paid-shooting event. Not fun. I did get back all but one image taken, but it took a couple of months.


Oh I am a pretty active camera club member, it's how I get to play with all the latest gear (only enthusiasts can justify most of it), I have recovered many corrupted cards from members and I have never failed to recover 'lost' images from corrupted, formatted, etc etc cards.

I use PhotoRec, it is free and as powerful as it gets, it takes a few minutes, an hour at most. I have never had an in use/camera card that has been corrupted to the point that recovery is impossible, I have seen cards so badly damaged from external causes that internal connections are damaged but that really is beyond almost any 'normal' use.


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## dwarven (Jan 21, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> So, if you need a modern ("within the last 5 years") body, then the body is mighty important.



No, that was only a broad generalization. Obviously cameras made even before that can do the job as well. A camera body is required to take pictures, but a specific model is not. If a body had significantly more importance, as you seem to believe, then you'd be on the Sony forums right now and not here.


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## amorse (Jan 21, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I'm actually a little confused by the rumor. Are we talking four or five? The headline says four new full frame bodies but the text refers to five: 1DX III, High Resolution R, Bargain R, Mystery R and a 5DV.


I get the impression that there's some guessing around what those 4 bodies will be. The article sounds pretty sure on the 1DXiii (for good reason obviously) and the high megapixel body, but the remaining two seem up in the air based on my interpretation. I'd absolutely shocked if one of those remaining two weren't either a 5DV or a comparable mirrorless body.


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## Lee Jay (Jan 21, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Oh I am a pretty active camera club member, it's how I get to play with all the latest gear (only enthusiasts can justify most of it), I have recovered many corrupted cards from members and I have never failed to recover 'lost' images from corrupted, formatted, etc etc cards.
> 
> I use PhotoRec, it is free and as powerful as it gets, it takes a few minutes, an hour at most. I have never had an in use/camera card that has been corrupted to the point that recovery is impossible, I have seen cards so badly damaged from external causes that internal connections are damaged but that really is beyond almost any 'normal' use.



I used a tool to recover all but 8 images. Sandisk recovered 7 of those 8 (it took a couple of months and they sent them on a stack of CDs). The last one was unrecoverable.


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## Lee Jay (Jan 21, 2020)

dwarven said:


> No, that was only a broad generalization. Obviously cameras made even before that can do the job as well. A camera body is required to take pictures, but a specific model is not. If a body had significantly more importance, as you seem to believe, then you'd be on the Sony forums right now and not here.



Sony cameras suck - they have EVFs I can't tolerate.

The point is, all three elements are crucial, meaning you can't do the job without all of them (and all have to be capable of the job). Therefore saying one is more important than the other is akin to saying the wings on your airliner are more important than the flight controls or engines. Well, you need them all, so they are all equally important.


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## Ozarker (Jan 21, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> That's total bunk.
> 
> I like to make fun of people saying things like, "a good photographer can make good pictures with a cell phone camera", without specifying the types of subjects to be photographed. Deep sky astrophotography? Airshow photography? Don't think so. Modest focal length pictures in good light? No problem.
> 
> See the issue here?


I've actually read someone say a good photographer could use coke bottle ends as lenses and still make a great photo.


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## usern4cr (Jan 21, 2020)

As a stills photographer, I'm most interested in their high-pixel R body, which I (personally) would require to have:
* 35-80MP, anywhere inbetween I'm happy. (BSI preferable). Show off how good you can make your dual-pixel AF work (eg have 1/2 of the dual-pixel sensors horizontal and 1/2 vertical).
* IBIS, hopefully working as dual-IS with IS lenses.
* 5+ MP EVF, with no black-out (preferably with much wider apparent angle-of-view).
* fully articulating screen (preferably with high resolution and as big as possible). Touch-screen interaction with as many features as possible.
* no embedded lower battery grip (it can be offered as an add-on).
* good continuous eye-AF (it doesn't have to beat Sony, but just be good enough)

What I'd really like added to it (some of which I know won't happen):
* at least 1 slot (preferably 2) for the very latest high speed memory card. If the 2nd memory card exists and is slower, then allow raw image to store just to the faster slot and be copied later in background (when not busy) to slower slot for backup use without slowing down shooting. I would be even happier if they had a good size internal super-fast memory for storage of raw image, with background copy to a single external card (which doesn't have to be the expensive latest fastest speed).
* Arca-swiss grooves at the bottom edges of the body so you can mount to any A-S mount, such as on tripods. It's easy to add them without affecting anything else. If possible, add another set of grooves on left side for portrait use on tripod.
* charging over USB 3 . Give the usb 3 connector a physical detent so when a cable is plugged in you can feel it snugly snap in place when fully inserted and not want to come out by accident. Allow USB 3 cable connection to computer (PC or MAC) or smart phone for control of everything (including seeing images) at full speed & 100% reliability.
* the EVF on the top left so you use with right eye while looking straight forward without smashing your nose into the body - made even better with an optional bigger fully light blocking rubber right-eye-cup which can be rotated(eye-cup only) 90 degrees for vertical shots. Now you can open your left eye (if desired) to see the normal view at the same time you frame your picture and take it, even after rotating camera 90 degrees left for portrait mode (oh, can you feel the ergonomic rating rise!).
* No PASM dial, but instead use dedicated (half-hidden) left-right rotary dials for speed, aperture, EV offset & ISO, each with a 'auto' toggle on/off (maybe by a push detent of the dial itself?). You could have 2 dials sticking out the top right front and 2 more sticking out the top right back. That's all 4 controls!
* A lever around the exposure button - for single frame, continuous frame, or video (or other start-stop control, such as single frame after 5(menu adjustable) second delay for selfies - yay!).
* neutral density algorithm (blending multiple images for tripod use)
* all bracketing options put together in one menu. Including aperture bracketing. Focus distance bracketing can be used (+/-) around the *center* distance (which is when button is pressed to start taking images, like when using eye-AF). If you dare to innovate, you could allow 2 brackets to be done for the same image (eg 3 in one bracket, and 4 in another means you take 3 * 4 pictures).
* low-light star tracking algorithm
* make strap connector locations at all 4 corners and recessed so they don't interfere with using buttons & dials (now you're free to attach the 2 camera-strap ends however you like).
* GPS, finally! Even better if you can do full offline location navigation with internal downloaded maps.
* A "silent" button. Those of you that don't want this can re-program it to something else.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I've actually read someone say a good photographer could use coke bottle ends as lenses and still make a great photo.



There are tons of idiots out there.


----------



## BillB (Jan 21, 2020)

amorse said:


> I get the impression that there's some guessing around what those 4 bodies will be. The article sounds pretty sure on the 1DXiii (for good reason obviously) and the high megapixel body, but the remaining two seem up in the air based on my interpretation. I'd absolutely shocked if one of those remaining two weren't either a 5DV or a comparable mirrorless body.


One issue with a 5DV DSLR is that you couldn't use all that new RF glass on it. So I am thinking a mirrorless equivalent to the 5D built around a new sensor is more likely. While this may be logical, apparently the rumors don't seem to be headed in this direction.


----------



## slclick (Jan 21, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> * Arca-swiss grooves at the bottom edges of the body (it's easy to add them without affecting anything else).


This is my camera body wet dream. I would include side as well, because L.


----------



## slclick (Jan 21, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> There are tons of idiots out there.


Well, I can make a good (not great) photo with a cardboard box, gaffers tape, tin foil, a tiny hole and some Ilford paper.On top of it it's a whole lot more enjoyable than clicking on a button full of electronics and a keyboard. Now, do I do it very often? No. I like to spread the love around though. Like Canon offering different bodies for different strokes.


----------



## dwarven (Jan 21, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Therefore saying one is more important than the other is akin to saying the wings on your airliner are more important than the flight controls or engines. Well, you need them all, so they are all equally important.



I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. Let me break it down by importance:

The difference between a good photographer and a bad one: very high importance
The difference between using an 85mm 1.8 and a 50mm 1.8: medium-low importance
The difference between using a D750 and D780: low-no importance

We are not debating the importance of one facet of photography being present or not. Obviously they are all required.


----------



## amorse (Jan 21, 2020)

BillB said:


> One issue with a 5DV DSLR is that you couldn't use all that new RF glass on it. So I am thinking a mirrorless equivalent to the 5D built around a new sensor is more likely. While this may be logical, apparently the rumors don't seem to be headed in this direction.


I think it's clear Canon wants to go that direction, but I wonder if they're ready to bet all their current 5DIV users will jump to mirrorless for the right camera. Maybe, but either way I just can't see them not refreshing that niche for longer than 4.5 years, whether by 5DV or EOS R equivalent. The 5D IV is still a great camera and frankly in a pinch I'd be comfortable hanging on to it until the next generation if the next version doesn't suit my need. Or maybe Canon's vision is that the high-resolution R will occupy that niche from now on, and the lower resolution equivalent will move down market to sit closer to where the R does now, though I'm sure that would be well received by all /s. I guess we'll know one way or another soon enough!


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 21, 2020)

dwarven said:


> I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. Let me break it down by importance:
> 
> The difference between a good photographer and a bad one: very high importance



That depends on the subject.



> The difference between using an 85mm 1.8 and a 50mm 1.8: medium-low importance.



You picked two very similar lenses thus minimizing the importance.



> There difference between using a D750 and D780: low-no importance



You picked two very similar cameras, thus minimizing the importance.


----------



## TracerHD (Jan 21, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> * charging over USB 3 . Give the usb 3 connector a physical 'detent' so when a cable is plugged in you can feel it snap in place when fully inserted and not want to come out by accident.



Question: wouldn't it be better to charge the batteries by battery charger ( faster than USB-C ? ) and use a Canon ac-e6n or something like this instead of?


----------



## slclick (Jan 21, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> That depends on the subject.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Geez, I'd almost rather hear the hens clucking about card slots than this.


----------



## Maximilian (Jan 21, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> ... I don't think Canon has internally committed to a 5D *MK IV *release, but I am sure they are developing one in the event they do decide to release it. ...


I am quite sure you got mixed up with all that "Mark" numbers and mean the *MK V*. 
Beacuse the MK IV was already released in 2016  Right?


----------



## Maximilian (Jan 21, 2020)

slclick said:


> It would be nice to see a 5D*4* alongside two new ml bodies. ...


Did you mean a to be released 5D*5 *or the existing 5D*4*?


----------



## Maximilian (Jan 21, 2020)

Tremotino said:


> Jasonmc89 said:
> 
> 
> > Literally every comment is a moan..
> ...


And moan like a German does?


----------



## Chris_Seattle (Jan 21, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Oh my ... 4 Canon cameras wedding photogs have no need for and no 5DV equivalent. If Canon thinks, that we want to move to the high megapixel nonsense, then they are pretty much wrong. And btw - high speed sports body with low megapixels has absolutly no sense. There is already 1DX III with low-enough resolution, and lower than 20mpx will surely not make 7D II followers happy.
> 
> What I also wonder is - if there is any truth to the EOS Rm, which would cost cca 800 USD, is there really still a future for the EOS-M cameras, apart from its relatively smaller bodies and lens?



You are correct. The Rs could be a sports shooter, IF they make it fast enough (at least 10 FPS). If it’s only 5FPS it will only be a 5DS/5DSR replacement.

And yes, an upgrade to the 5D4 market will have better low light performance...higher resolution is not needed.


----------



## AlanF (Jan 21, 2020)

Chris_Seattle said:


> You are correct. The Rs could be a sports shooter, IF they make it fast enough (at least 10 FPS). If it’s only 5FPS it will only be a 5DS/5DSR replacement.
> 
> And yes, an upgrade to the 5D4 market will have better low light performance...higher resolution is not needed.


Not needed for you. For me, it's essential and also dropping the AA-filter - OK for low res sensors but not for 50+ Mpx. And the low light performance of the 5DIV is still state of the art.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Jan 21, 2020)

Edward Winter said:


> Every photographer I know is perched on the fence ready to jump ship to Sony (or Fuji) if Canon doesn't drop an A7RIV equivalent in an R series mirrorless format before spring wedding season kicks off. GEEZ. Whats the dealio Canon? Nobody wants a new DSLR format 5D MKV. Though it would be WONDERFUL if one of the new R bodies was a Sony a7III equivalent (with 2 card slots) and priced accordingly.


May I introduce myself so you know someone who isn't ever jumping to Sony. 

Jack


----------



## tron (Jan 21, 2020)

Edward Winter said:


> Every photographer I know is perched on the fence ready to jump ship to Sony (or Fuji) if Canon doesn't drop an A7RIV equivalent in an R series mirrorless format before spring wedding season kicks off. GEEZ. Whats the dealio Canon? Nobody wants a new DSLR format 5D MKV. Though it would be WONDERFUL if one of the new R bodies was a Sony a7III equivalent (with 2 card slots) and priced accordingly.


 NEW TROLL WARNING!


----------



## slclick (Jan 21, 2020)

Maximilian said:


> Did you mean a to be released 5D*5 *or the existing 5D*4*?


Who has the skinny on Japanese culture and naming nomenclature for model numbers? I know there was taboo with 4....are those days in the past?


----------



## iamjhil (Jan 21, 2020)

It's awesome to have them releasing a bunch of videos. But on the flip side, with every camera they release, i'm gonna be wondering if the next release will have better specs.


----------



## Besisika (Jan 21, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Sony cameras suck - they have EVFs I can't tolerate.
> 
> The point is, all three elements are crucial, meaning you can't do the job without all of them (and all have to be capable of the job). Therefore saying one is more important than the other is akin to saying the wings on your airliner are more important than the flight controls or engines. Well, you need them all, so they are all equally important.


I agree. I started as a general purpose photog, then did winter sports, then did wedding, then did portraiture and now mainly photo story and video. Regardless of how great I was as a photographer, I always had to replace or upgrade my gear every time I changed. The wedding gear were not buffy and long enough for sport, the sport gear were too heavy for portraiture on top of the need for strobe and softbox, and the 5D III didn't have DPAF and in-body stabilization for run and gun videography. My bank account confirms that you are right, gears and photographers are equally important. 
However, I know a friend photographer who still uses a 5D II and delivers better results than me using a 1DX II. That is because his scene staging and model posing techniques are flawless, compared to mine.
Do you need to upgrade your gear or do you need to spend money (and time) for training? The answer to that is very personal. My opinion, he values more training that's why he assigned a 70% to it. I need both so I will assign it 50/50. And the guy who can shoot pond hockey games with a cellphone needs to find a psychiatrist.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (Jan 21, 2020)

I have had 2 card failures
I lost data with my first one and since then I have always backed up images on a second card. It does happen. If you fly half way across the country for a dive and the card fails while your underwater it’s infuriating 



NorskHest said:


> Since you all are missing the point I’ll reiterate. Tech is better than ever and canon knows this. You all want light weight, this pixel amount or that amount of pixels or 4K or no k or two slots or the other long list of complaints. Canon and other company’s are not dumb. They know more than most of us. They try to deliver a product that meets most of the needs. If you get only one slot it’s because they know something you don’t. Writing data and cards are so good now that company’s are taking that into consideration to give all of you who complain about everything all that you can want and dream of in a small little package. And too answer your questions I have never had a card failure. I used to do weddings but I would rather get kicked in junk than photograph a wedding.


----------



## reef58 (Jan 21, 2020)

unfocused said:


> We are all ******* -- eventually. But the Rebels and APS-C generally have a lot of life left in them. Many consumers prefer the "real camera" look and feel of DSLRs and the flexibility of the EF-S and EF lens system cannot be discounted. Unfortunately, Canon sacrificed that flexibility with the R and M systems. Think about the tried and true 70-300 mm kit lenses. Probably one of the most popular focal lengths ever made. There is simply nothing like it that will be available in a lens that fits both the R and M.



The M has the 55 to 250 I believe


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 21, 2020)

TracerHD said:


> Question: wouldn't it be better to charge the batteries by battery charger ( faster than USB-C ? ) and use a Canon ac-e6n or something like this instead of?


I don't know which is faster, as speed wasn't my concern. You could still have a battery charger like before if they wanted to supply both (which they should, but you never know).


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 21, 2020)

slclick said:


> This is my camera body wet dream. I would include side as well, because L.


I considered that, but thought it might interfere with the misc. stuff they put on the left side. But on 2nd thought I think they could manage to do it OK. So, if it could be done without any downside then hey - do that too, just for the "L" of it!


----------



## reef58 (Jan 21, 2020)

Edward Winter said:


> Every photographer I know is perched on the fence ready to jump ship to Sony (or Fuji) if Canon doesn't drop an A7RIV equivalent in an R series mirrorless format before spring wedding season kicks off. GEEZ. Whats the dealio Canon? Nobody wants a new DSLR format 5D MKV. Though it would be WONDERFUL if one of the new R bodies was a Sony a7III equivalent (with 2 card slots) and priced accordingly.



I haven't been on this forum forever, but I have been around a few years. With all of the photographers supposedly jumping ship I am surprised canon is still the sales leader. If I listened to the internet hype Canon's market share should be around 1% consisting of old dinosaurs not wanting to give up their DSLR's. What gives? Does not compute.


----------



## MadScotsman (Jan 21, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> Since you all are missing the point I’ll reiterate. Tech is better than ever and canon knows this.



There are exactly 1,257 things that can go wrong on a professional shoot. Including camera malfunctions, lighting gear failures, lens malfunctions, and outright malice visited upon you by The Universe itself. They've dedicated themselves to obsessing over one of the least likely. Don't waste your breath. 

Card slot failures were a thing. In 2002. 

And queue the apocryphal "it happened to ME!" horror stories in 3... 2... 1...


----------



## Deleted member 68328 (Jan 21, 2020)

Do you think we’ll see a direct DSLR replacement for the 5D Mark IV this year?


----------



## Don Haines (Jan 21, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> May I introduce myself so you know someone who isn't ever jumping to Sony.
> 
> Jack


Let me explain t to you....

Canon is *******!

That they are coming out with 4 FF bodies this year means that they never do any research.

That you can put any EF lens on any R camera (with increased functionality) or M camera through an adapter is proof that Canon does not care about its existing customers and has abandoned them.

That Tamron and Sigma EF lenses also work on R, M, and EF bodies is proof that Canon is deliberately screwing over third party manufacturers


or so says internet logic.......


----------



## AlanF (Jan 21, 2020)

Edward Winter said:


> Every photographer I know is perched on the fence ready to jump ship to Sony (or Fuji) if Canon doesn't drop an A7RIV equivalent in an R series mirrorless format before spring wedding season kicks off. GEEZ. Whats the dealio Canon? Nobody wants a new DSLR format 5D MKV. Though it would be WONDERFUL if one of the new R bodies was a Sony a7III equivalent (with 2 card slots) and priced accordingly.


"_Now is the winter of our discontent_." Richard III, Shakespeare.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 21, 2020)

slclick said:


> Geez, I'd almost rather hear the hens clucking about card slots than this.


In elementary school we used to see who could pee higher up the post.


----------



## unfocused (Jan 21, 2020)

reef58 said:


> The M has the 55 to 250 I believe


Does it fit the R?


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 21, 2020)

neurorx said:


> No 5DV or equivalent?


Good news Canon - the giant has awaken and ready to take on Sony in ML FF world.


----------



## Adelino (Jan 21, 2020)

Chris_Seattle said:


> You are correct. The Rs could be a sports shooter, IF they make it fast enough (at least 10 FPS). If it’s only 5FPS it will only be a 5DS/5DSR replacement.
> 
> And yes, an upgrade to the 5D4 market will have better low light performance...higher resolution is not needed.



I wouldn't mind 5 FPS IF the EVF refreshes fast enough.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 21, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> Canon and other company’s are not dumb. They know more than most of us. They try to deliver a product that meets most of the needs. If you get only one slot it’s because they know something you don’t. Writing data and cards are so good now that company’s are taking that into consideration to give all of you who complain about everything all that you can want and dream of in a small little package.


I think you're missing one important detail here. It's our money we spend on Canon's gear. We're simply *not* getting a new camera if it doesn't fit the requirements, whatever the requirements are.
Personally I don't care what Canon knows about the market and customer demands on average. I don't care about it at all when buying a new camera.
If they offer a great camera stuffed with goodies bit without a second card slot, *and* it's important to me, I'm simply not buying it.


----------



## BillB (Jan 21, 2020)

amorse said:


> I think it's clear Canon wants to go that direction, but I wonder if they're ready to bet all their current 5DIV users will jump to mirrorless for the right camera. Maybe, but either way I just can't see them not refreshing that niche for longer than 4.5 years, whether by 5DV or EOS R equivalent. The 5D IV is still a great camera and frankly in a pinch I'd be comfortable hanging on to it until the next generation if the next version doesn't suit my need. Or maybe Canon's vision is that the high-resolution R will occupy that niche from now on, and the lower resolution equivalent will move down market to sit closer to where the R does now, though I'm sure that would be well received by all /s. I guess we'll know one way or another soon enough!


Well, from the users' point of view, the best solution would be for Canon to make both the 5DV DSLR and the 5D mirrorless and let us pick the one we want. That may well be the way it works out, especially if the new sensor/processor package is a big jump from the 5DIV.


----------



## peters (Jan 21, 2020)

"An EOS 5D Mark IV equivalent body could also be a possibility "
-> I think the EOS R was already 95% a 4D IV equivalent, wasn it? The missing second card slot made it a bit unusable for some wedding-photographers, but beside this it shared pretty much all the internal specs with the 5D IV? (While offering a more efficient video codec. Which didnt matter though because of the unaccaptable rolling shutter)


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 21, 2020)

RobbieHat said:


> As someone who mostly shoots landscapes and some wildlife, I would comment that the desire for a 5DSR replacement is as good or better resolution (50 mp today going up to something higher) but as importantly better DR, noise control, etc. The only reason I like the two card slots is I can buy cheaper cards and not have to swap them in the field. I don't shoot to two cards (maybe I am crazy).



My landscape trips sometimes take a lot of time and long driving, sometimes take a big deal of effort to organise, and fuel alone may cost more than an SD card. On the location there may be unique conditions that I'd never see again.

I simply can't afford to save on my media storage, use cheap cards or not use the second slot.


----------



## Philrp (Jan 21, 2020)

So I'm thinking the Rm might be an EOS M with an RF mount. It's in the name :O)

Given that the RP was a mirrorless 6D, anything lower price would have to be a crop sensor, no?

Crossing fingers!!!


----------



## Cat_Interceptor (Jan 21, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Oh I am a pretty active camera club member, it's how I get to play with all the latest gear (only enthusiasts can justify most of it), I have recovered many corrupted cards from members and I have never failed to recover 'lost' images from corrupted, formatted, etc etc cards.
> 
> I use PhotoRec, it is free and as powerful as it gets, it takes a few minutes, an hour at most. I have never had an in use/camera card that has been corrupted to the point that recovery is impossible, I have seen cards so badly damaged from external causes that internal connections are damaged but that really is beyond almost any 'normal' use.



If I told my employer to rely on recovery rather than backup I'd be out of a job. Sorry, but recovery is not in any way shape or form a valid alternative to backups. Thence, dual card slots for any paid work I do is mandatory because I'm not going to chance recovery, I know exactly over long and ugly experience just how that can go wrong. 

And backups are not valid unless they are tested. 

----

I can only hope this "sports/speed" camera is a real, genuine replacement to the 7D mk II.


----------



## reef58 (Jan 21, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> That depends on the subject.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know what you are saying, but if you take most modern camera bodies. Last 5 to 10 years, the differences are really just splitting hairs. Compare any of them to the best of 50 years ago and you have to admit we live in great times. Think of it this way, if we rate cameras on a scale of 1-100


unfocused said:


> Does it fit the R?



I misunderstood. I didn't know you meant both. I think the R is getting the 70-400


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 21, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> If I told my employer to rely on recovery rather than backup I'd be out of a job. Sorry, but recovery is not in any way shape or form a valid alternative to backups. Thence, dual card slots for any paid work I do is mandatory because I'm not going to chance recovery, I know exactly over long and ugly experience just how that can go wrong.
> 
> And backups are not valid unless they are tested.
> 
> ...


Don’t be sorry, get a life and maintain context. The logical extension of your comment is that no person ever shooting any kind of meaningful images should ever use a single card slot camera, that is ridiculous, it has no historical basis, it isn’t true of many other cameras, video and stills that have one card slot (Hasselblad, Arri, etc etc) and was never an issue taken seriously when we shot film. Talking of which, I lost many film images due to faulty processing.

Now having a robust redundancy and backup protocol post capture is something that falls into best practise techniques, insisting dual capture is the only way a pro could work is farcical. To conflate the two is disingenuous at best.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 21, 2020)

dwarven said:


> Any DSLR or mirrorless camera made within the last 5 years can do any of those things. I'm not saying the body is unimportant, but people definitely place too much emphasis on it.


And a good jockey can win a race on a pony. I'm not saying the horse is unimportant, but people put to much emphasis on it...


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 21, 2020)

Edward Winter said:


> Every photographer I know is perched on the fence ready to jump ship to Sony (or Fuji) if Canon doesn't drop an A7RIV equivalent in an R series mirrorless format before spring wedding season kicks off. GEEZ. Whats the dealio Canon? Nobody wants a new DSLR format 5D MKV. Though it would be WONDERFUL if one of the new R bodies was a Sony a7III equivalent (with 2 card slots) and priced accordingly.



Every photographer? Nobody?

If someone gave me a Sony, I'd sell it. If Canon drops an R-series mirrorless instead of a 5DV, I'd still prefer a 5DII over it.


----------



## slclick (Jan 21, 2020)

The remaining enigma (although this is a CR2, so it's all conjecture) could just as well be an EF mount mirrorless. Just give me better ergonomics than an sd Quattro.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 21, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Don’t be sorry, get a life and maintain context. The logical extension of your comment is that no person ever shooting any kind of meaningful images should ever use a single card slot camera, that is ridiculous, it has no historical basis, it isn’t true of many other cameras, video and stills that have one card slot (Hasselblad, Arri, etc etc) and was never an issue taken seriously when we shot film. Talking of which, I lost many film images due to faulty processing.
> 
> Now having a robust redundancy and backup protocol post capture is something that falls into best practise techniques, insisting dual capture is the only way a pro could work is farcical. To conflate the two is disingenuous at best.



How does post-capture backup fix a problem with a card? I tried to backup the card I had that failed while still at the event, and the backup failed because the card failed.

Post-capture backup only works against post-capture problems. It doesn't help if the card fails while you are shooting, which is exactly what happened to me.


----------



## dslrdummy (Jan 21, 2020)

One thing that rarely gets spoken about is the reliability factor of Canon hardware. There is a good reason they have a longer model refresh period than Sony and Fuji. My first Canon digital body was a 5D and I have owned several of their FF and APS-C bodies over time and the only failure I have ever had was a short circuit caused by a bent pin in the CF card slot of the 5D. I bought a A$10K Leica M10 early last year and it completely failed and has been in the Leica workshop in Wetzlar since December. All cameras can fail but some brands seem more prone than others. And then you have to deal with their after sales "service".


----------



## Cat_Interceptor (Jan 21, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Don’t be sorry, get a life and maintain context.



Recovery is not an alternative to backups - That's the context here. Just like in the IT field, RAID is not a backup 



> insisting dual capture is the only way a pro could work is farcical. To conflate the two is disingenuous at best.



The issue here is that the people who want dual cards have a very solid reasoning for doing so. Stating recovery can be done is not an answer to that


----------



## slclick (Jan 21, 2020)

dslrdummy said:


> One thing that rarely gets spoken about is the reliability factor of Canon hardware. There is a good reason they have a longer model refresh period than Sony and Fuji. My first Canon digital body was a 5D and I have owned several of their FF and APS-C bodies over time and the only failure I have ever had was a short circuit caused by a bent pin in the CF card slot of the 5D. I bought a A$10K Leica M10 early last year and it completely failed and has been in the Leica workshop in Wetzlar since December. All cameras can fail but some brands seem more prone than others. And then you have to deal with their after sales "service".


We actually bring it up quite a bit. Along with stellar service, ergonomics and the best menu systems. But unfortunately, it gets overlooked by threads on DR, card slots, IBIS, market share, G.A.S., keeping up with brand X, EVF's and file sizes. 

Interesting factoid btw, the RP name has been used before...





__





Canonflex RP - Canon Camera Museum


Here, you can find out about Canon's Film Cameras > R > Canonflex RP.



global.canon


----------



## tron (Jan 21, 2020)

EOS R sensor is very close to EOS 5DmKiv IQ which is a very capable camera. I guess pros could wait using this camera a little longer. It is certain that Canon will respond with a two slot mirrorless camera.

To calm down and laugh a little here is a video for Nikon Z cameras:









Nikon Z6 mirrorless launch


Nikon failed to launch a professional mirrorless camera. Sony is laughing at them.




www.captiongenerator.com








EDIT: Even statistically out of the 4 new FF cameras some (and not only 1DxIII) will be dual-slot ones


----------



## photographer (Jan 21, 2020)

puffo25 said:


> If anyome is in my situation and prefer to shoot as semi-pro mainly landscape, event and picture while I go travel/tourist trips, what solution you would suggest to go?
> 
> TIA.
> Puffo











Mount Adapter EF-EOS R


Dust- and Water-resistant.Metal Mount on Both Lens and Camera Sides Provide Rugged Flexibility.Exterior Design Matched to EF Lenses.Mount Adapter Allows EF/EF-S Lens Compatibility with the EOS R Camera.




www.usa.canon.com


----------



## unfocused (Jan 22, 2020)

Four full frame cameras sounds impressive, but is it?

1) 1Dx III
2) EOS Rp (High megapixel
3) EOS R bargain
4) 5DV

That doesn't leave room for another higher end R model. So maybe no 5DV this year. Maybe the number should actually be five. Maybe there is no bargain R on the horizon. Or maybe Canon is not ready to offer another model slotted above the R. Since it's all speculation right now, go ahead and take your pick and then start drafting your outraged posts for when you don't get your way.


----------



## richperson (Jan 22, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> Elaborate please. Why does a ARRI have one slot, or a red, or a C200 or so many other cameras have only one? Could it be that there isn’t always a need for two? Or that media and writing data become more reliable, or that card have come down in price and contain more storage? One card slot is not going to slow you down or hinder you. Is having two slots nice? Sure but it is not going to hinder you. Was only one role of film sufficient for alllllll those film cameras?



You know these Canon cameras take still photos too, right? 

Let me give you two examples:

1) I'm shooting a sports event and I want raw images for post processing, but also want JPEGs for immediate posting on social media; AND
2) I'm shooting portraits at an event, and we want to print quick JPEGs for immediate use, by transferring from a memory card, and also save raw files for better post processing and providing online.

I have had both those happen in the last two months and #2 used my R, but ran into problems when my assistant accidentally deleted the photos of the card that were supposed to have been kept.


----------



## slclick (Jan 22, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> You can record RAW and jpeg to one card. Wanting both formats doesn't require two cards.
> 
> Your assistant is an idiot and that has got nothing to do with having one or two card slots.


Let the guy want two cards for cheese and rice sake.


----------



## slclick (Jan 22, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I have absolutely no problem with people wanting them, I do have a big problem with people professing that anybody that doesn't use them can't be a professional. It's just a bullshit marketing meme pushed by 'influencers' that gullible fools have latched onto.


Yeah I get that, you and others here in the single slot camp have made that clear. What isn't clear is the vitriol being spewed when someone professes their 2 slot want/need/desire/reasoning. The replies in dissent have just been so demeaning and frankly, pathetic. It's taking the low road for certain.


----------



## unfocused (Jan 22, 2020)

I've completely lost interest in the two-card debate, but I really wish people would quit polluting these threads with the same talking points over and over again. No one is going to win the argument or convince anyone that they are right.


----------



## Boudreaux&Thibodeaux (Jan 22, 2020)

Think outside the box. Think .... yet another lens line for a cheaper camera. The RF-s line, analogous to the EF-s line. And a crop sensor more or less "RP" type of camera. I would not put that past Canon one bit. Why bring out a bargain basement body when almost all you have are $2k+ lenses? Makes no sense whatsoever.


----------



## sanj (Jan 22, 2020)

I personally had a very bad experience with corrupt cards on 1dx2. I will almost always prefer to shoot with 2 cards. Thank you.


----------



## slclick (Jan 22, 2020)

Boudreaux&Thibodeaux said:


> Think outside the box. Think .... yet another lens line for a cheaper camera. The RF-s line, analogous to the EF-s line. And a crop sensor more or less "RP" type of camera. I would not put that past Canon one bit. Why bring out a bargain basement body when almost all you have are $2k+ lenses? Makes no sense whatsoever.


I will admit, wondering if it could be a crop body is certainly thinking outside the box for a full frame thread. This could segue into the possible mirrorless 7Dll replacement wailing and caterwauling thread so many of us are missing from this past Fall.


----------



## SteveC (Jan 22, 2020)

JohnC said:


> The only hole I have for a light travel kit is the telephoto zoom. More than likely I will opt for an EF or EFS 55-200 or 250. I haven't evaluated either yet from a quality standpoint but I think they are supposed to be better than the 18-150 (hard to find direct comparisons). Outside of that it will be the 11-22, the Sigma 30, and whatever I decide on the telephoto zoom. That will be a tidy kit for work travel, or extended backpacking.



Why not the tamron 18-200? They do make it natively for the EF-M mount.


----------



## M. D. Vaden of Oregon (Jan 22, 2020)

tron said:


> EOS R sensor is very close to EOS 5DmKiv IQ which is a very capable camera. I guess pros could wait using this camera a little longer. It is certain that Canon will respond with a two slot mirrorless camera.
> 
> To calm down and laugh a little here is a video for Nikon Z cameras:
> 
> ...




The video is actually quite funny.

Wish Northrup and Polin could stage some stuff like this !!!


----------



## Woody (Jan 22, 2020)

I'm curious if this is the beginning of the end for Sony FF MILC.


----------



## mikebecurious (Jan 22, 2020)

Great!! Would love to see Canon new camera! The EOS R have been great so far after months of using!


----------



## Dequals61 (Jan 22, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> My landscape trips sometimes take a lot of time and long driving, sometimes take a big deal of effort to organise, and fuel alone may cost more than an SD card. On the location there may be unique conditions that I'd never see again.
> 
> I simply can't afford to save on my media storage, use cheap cards or not use the second slot.


I totally agree. I'm not professional race car driver but I've never driven without having car insurance. It only takes one time.


----------



## Frodo (Jan 22, 2020)

Woody said:


> I'm curious if this is the beginning of the end for Sony FF MILC.


I hope not. The sector needs competition and innovation.


----------



## goldilocks_focus (Jan 22, 2020)

There will be no EOS R mark II ...
I think Canon will announce a sports mirrorless and a high-resolution mirrorless camera.


----------



## canonnews (Jan 22, 2020)

goldilocks_focus said:


> There will be no EOS R mark II ...
> I think Canon will announce a sports mirrorless and a high-resolution mirrorless camera.



I doubt it will be a sports camera.

why on earth would canon release a sports camera in late 2020 only to turn around and announce a 1 series sports camera in 2021.


----------



## canonnews (Jan 22, 2020)

richperson said:


> 1) I'm shooting a sports event and I want raw images for post processing, but also want JPEGs for immediate posting on social media; AND



this isn't handled at all by a second card slot but handled by background wifi image transfer directly to your smartphone as you shoot.


----------



## -pekr- (Jan 22, 2020)

tron said:


> EOS R sensor is very close to EOS 5DmKiv IQ which is a very capable camera. I guess pros could wait using this camera a little longer. It is certain that Canon will respond with a two slot mirrorless camera.



And that's the problem - EOS R basically uses a 5DIV sensor, which we've already got with the 5DIV itself, naturally. We (as in our studio) don't need/want another 5DIV, what we need after thoser 4 years is a completly new upgraded camera, moving our used 5DIV to the backup. 

It seems no such upgrade is coming in 2020, while 5DV possibility is mentioned in the article. That's interesting, because we've already decided 5DIV was probably our last pro DSLR ever. So Canon releasing a 5DV has no buy in our book. I have a gut feeling our aproach is going to be followed by many others.

Well, for the time being, if there is a need, we could reverse the situation by buying some cheaper R variant (R, Rp, Rm) to be the secondary body, while waiting for the 5DV in an R form. There is also one possibility - if the high mpx body has still better sensor characteristics than 5DIV, we might consider it as well.


----------



## canonnews (Jan 22, 2020)

Boudreaux&Thibodeaux said:


> Why bring out a bargain basement body when almost all you have are $2k+ lenses? Makes no sense whatsoever.



Because they are trying to get some of those 100 million EF users to migrate over. Even on a 24MP sensor, some of them using EF-S lenses would still have more megapixels than their nominal camera - and one could argue that 10MP off a full frame sensor is probably better than what the 18MP asp-c sensors could do anyways.

Also Canon can think ahead to end of this year, and they know what their lenses will be for the next 3-4 years already.

there's only 3-5 really cheap lenses needed;

24-105 3.5-5.6
16-35 3.5-5.6
70-300 4-6.3
50mm F1.8

if canon wants to the next wave would include the trinity of usual primes

24mm F2, 28mm F2.8, 35mm F2.0

after that.. nothing is really necessary.


----------



## canonnews (Jan 22, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> And that's the problem - EOS R basically uses a 5DIV sensor, which we've already got with the 5DIV itself, naturally. We (as in our studio) don't need/want another 5DIV



Canon's already stated many times that they don't' see the EOS R at the 5D level of camera body.


----------



## -pekr- (Jan 22, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Canon's already stated many times that they don't' see the EOS R at the 5D level of camera body.



... yet they refuse to provide a 5D RF alternative even for 2020?


----------



## Woody (Jan 22, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Also Canon can think ahead to end of this year, and they know what their lenses will be for the next 3-4 years already.
> there's only 3-5 really cheap lenses needed;
> 
> 24-105 3.5-5.6
> ...



I think a cheap and low weight 24-70 f/4 or f/3.5-5.6 will be more appealing than its 24-105 sibling.

Anyway, give consumers cheap and light-weight systems (both cameras and lenses), and Canon is ready to dominate the FF MILC market.


----------



## -pekr- (Jan 22, 2020)

Woody said:


> I think a cheap and low weight 24-70 f/4 or f/3.5-5.6 will be more appealing than its 24-105 sibling.
> 
> Anyway, give consumers cheap and light-weight systems (both cameras and lenses), and Canon is ready to dominate the FF MILC market.



If the cheap one is a reality, I will have a hard time deciding between the M6 II and the eventual Rm. Yesterday I have visited the top CZ photo equipment shop to buy Canon 100 f2.8 Is macro, and was surprised that from Canon MILC, they had only M50 on stock. Well, M can be still smaller than any RF camera, I just wonder how small Rm is going to be. And if the price is almost identical, why to go for an APS-C? I know, the size still can be a deciding factor - but almost alone factor, if the price is on par, plus the advantage of compatible RF mout in the case of Rm.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jan 22, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Yesterday I have visited the top CZ photo equipment shop to buy Canon 100 f2.8 Is macro...


Great lens, I have it since it came out and I love it, not only for macro but also for tack sharp portraits (well, for 40+ ladies I take my more dreamy-creamy 85mm f=1.2 if I want to make them really happy  ). You don't always need a 4k+ $ Zeiss prime to get really nice images...


----------



## Cyborx (Jan 22, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> I know some people here think we're bemoaning the fact that Canon isn't doing exactly what the various parties here want in a camera. But I don't think we're being unreasonable when we ask for a pro-series body that isn't video-focused, since most here are photographers, and for a 7Dii update (whether R series or not). The 1Dx iii is a lovely camera with some interesting video features, but doesn't appear to be much more than a 'side-grade' in photography terms, as opposed to a true upgrade. The 90d is not even in the same league as the 7Dii and is a downgrade in other areas. The 5DV doesn't exist, and apparently is not going to anytime soon. I don't get why Canon wouldn't satisfy bird/sport photographers, with an R series body (or otherwise) and show us what the technology is capable of. Do a 5Dr at the same time for pro-shooters. If they put out a 500 or 600 with a 7Dr I'd buy it tomorrow.
> 
> Maybe the A7S equivalent is a sort-of answer to some of that?


Exactly! I just want a pro mirrorless body.. is that too much to ask???
Also I want a Li-Ion Speedlite btw.


----------



## AlanF (Jan 22, 2020)

I have been out birding a lot in the good weather this last weekend and seen hordes of photographers. They were mainly with 7Ds and a few FF with the 100-400mm I and II, some big whites and 1Ds and tripods, probably 70% of the total, and then about 20% Nikons with the 200-500mm, and some Sigma 150-600mm across both makes, with a smattering of bridge camera. The only mirrorless was a Z7. What is it telling us? Well, despite the documented popularity of Sony amongst keen birders with Art Morris cheering on, they haven’t trickled down to the average person. And mirrorless is not popular in this pursuit at the mass level. Nikon has definitely increased significantly in popularity in my observations since the D500 and new Nikkor telephoto lenses. I think the 90D with 100-400mm II will sustain Canon at the lower end of the market in the meanwhile as it is good for perched birds. But it is not a 7DII successor as its focus for birds in flight is just OK and is not up to what is possible in terms of speed and tracking.


----------



## koenkooi (Jan 22, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Oh I am a pretty active camera club member, it's how I get to play with all the latest gear (only enthusiasts can justify most of it), I have recovered many corrupted cards from members and I have never failed to recover 'lost' images from corrupted, formatted, etc etc cards.
> 
> I use PhotoRec, it is free and as powerful as it gets, it takes a few minutes, an hour at most. I have never had an in use/camera card that has been corrupted to the point that recovery is impossible, I have seen cards so badly damaged from external causes that internal connections are damaged but that really is beyond almost any 'normal' use.



I also use photorec, together with ddrescue for things like this. I had my first real failure last month, I could dump the card just fine, but photorec couldn't discover anything and closer inspection showed that the 8GB image was just the same 1MB repeated 8 thousand times. 
So sometimes the controller inside the card decides to call it quits. It also confirmed my bias against non-sandisk cards


----------



## Joules (Jan 22, 2020)

What a messy thread  

So we are basically sure that we'll get:

1DX III
High resolution RF camera
Highly affordable RF camera (< 1000$)

And we may get one camera that we can apparently just speculate about. Of these, a lower MP body to rival the A7S makes the least amount of sense to me if it has to be low end enough to not interfere with the 1DX III.

The high resolution R has got a lot of talk already. But I'm really curious about the lower cost one. I'm assuming this will still be FF. 

Will it share a sensor with another camera to better leverage economies of scale? If so, which camera would that be? Can't be the high resolution R one. I also can't see them putting the 1DX III sensor in anything else, even though it is low res enough to suite a lower end body. What does that leave? Reuse the 5D IV sensor or 6D II sensor AGAIN? Is that actually cheaper than moving everything to the same technology generation? The 80D sensor has tickled all the way down to almost every crop camera Canon made.

And what else will be cut? Obviously, no EVF. Makes some sense, the current external one is a bit aged and if they bring out a newer version it would benefit this camera and the M6 II.

Apart from that, what does the RP have that one doesn't strictly need?


----------



## tron (Jan 22, 2020)

For people worrying about a missing 5DMkV see 









Two new EOS R bodies coming in the first half of 2020 [CR3]


A lot more information came in after the weekend's posting about potential Canon EOS R Mark II specifications. A known source has told us that the specifica



www.canonrumors.com





So out of the 4 new FF cameras two will be mirrorless the third is 1DxIII so there is one more non mirrorless DSLR

It has to be 5DMkV. Personally I will upgrade from my 5DMkIV.


----------



## JohnC (Jan 22, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Why not the tamron 18-200? They do make it natively for the EF-M mount.



It's a possibility as well, but with the super-zooms my understanding is they give something up to achieve it. I can't remember exactly what I read about the 18-200 but there was something that fell kind of short. I may look at it myself though you can't always believe everything you read


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Jan 22, 2020)

Regarding the rumoured lower MP speed/sports body. I’d really like to see a lower megapixel CROP sensor R camera with really good high iso performance and fast burst rate.

I was SO looking forward to the 90D but I‘m actually put off by the higher megapixels! Wildlife subjects, especially birds, are always moving and I notice motion blur more with the 80D even, compared to older bodies. Also more often than not my iso wants to go to like 1600+ in order to get shutter speeds up.

In my opinion, a roughly 18 megapixel _crop_ sensor, with lightning fast frames per second and really good high iso performance would make an awesome sports/wildlife camera.


----------



## Gazwas (Jan 22, 2020)

Joules said:


> So we are basically sure that we'll get:
> 
> 1DX III
> High resolution RF camera
> ...


Is it that clear? 

From what I read in the original news story I doesn't actually claim anything other than the existance if the 1DX (as its been released). No disrepect to the site owner as I know sourcing this info must be difficult however this is CR2 info and we are only a matter of weeks away from such a significant Canon mirrorless camera launch, reportedly containing lots of new tech and the rumour sites know obsolutly nothing about it.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 22, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> I was SO looking forward to the 90D but I‘m actually put off by the higher megapixels! Wildlife subjects, especially birds, are always moving and I notice motion blur more with the 80D even, compared to older bodies.



Apart from larger file sizes and lower fps, (which isn't that low in 90D) there's no technical reason to be put off by higher megapixels. The more the better quite literally.
You have the same motion blur regardless of the sensor size, but higher resolution allows to see the blur clearer. But if you downsample to the lower resolution, the blur should be reduced, so you actually have more freedom to fight the blur.


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Jan 22, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Apart from larger file sizes and lower fps, (which isn't that low in 90D) there's no technical reason to be put off by higher megapixels. The more the better quite literally.
> You have the same motion blur regardless of the sensor size, but higher resolution allows to see the blur clearer. But if you downsample to the lower resolution, the blur should be reduced, so you actually have more freedom to fight the blur.


Never thought of downsampling to reduce blur to be honest. Either way, I’d still rather have a lower MP count if it meant better high iso performance.


----------



## photographer (Jan 22, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> If the cheap one is a reality, I will have a hard time deciding between the M6 II and the eventual Rm. Yesterday I have visited the top CZ photo equipment shop to buy Canon 100 f2.8 Is macro, and was surprised that from Canon MILC, they had only M50 on stock. Well, M can be still smaller than any RF camera, I just wonder how small Rm is going to be. And if the price is almost identical, why to go for an APS-C? I know, the size still can be a deciding factor - but almost alone factor, if the price is on par, plus the advantage of compatible RF mout in the case of Rm.



The size of the cameras will be almost the same, but the size and weight of the lenses will make a big difference.


----------



## puffo25 (Jan 22, 2020)

Hi all, do you think, according to some youtube review, that the newest RF lenses are better ans somehow sharper and do faster AF that EF lenses? 
Puffo


----------



## Stuart (Jan 22, 2020)

puffo25 said:


> Hi all, I know we are here under speculation BUT let's see if my thinking is correct. I currently have couple of EF canon lenses that I have been using in the past years along my old EOS 5D Mark II. Now that camera is broken and I am looking for a good substitute!
> 
> 2 options but do not know which one will be real and release sooner:
> 
> ...


Rent on the days you need it - unless its every day? Or just buy second hand till canon flood us with choices, then sell your 2nd hand body.


----------



## Stuart (Jan 22, 2020)

Josh Leavitt said:


> Will this supposed EOS Rm be full-frame? A $699 or $799 MSRP for a full-frame camera would be quite impressive, even if Canon recycle the 6D II sensor used in the RP. I would assume such a model would have to forego any EVF and probably replace the articulating screen with a smaller tilt screen. Visions of a slightly enlarged EOS M6 come to mind.


You will always need an evf for mirrorless.


----------



## MartinF. (Jan 22, 2020)

puffo25 said:


> Hi all, I know we are here under speculation BUT let's see if my thinking is correct. I currently have couple of EF canon lenses that I have been using in the past years along my old EOS 5D Mark II. Now that camera is broken and I am looking for a good substitute!
> 
> 2 options but do not know which one will be real and release sooner:
> 
> ...


I am in a bit of same situation. I have a well functioning but also well used 6D, two top-of-line EF (L) Zooms and a handfull of good EF primes. My photography is a bit of everything - so I am glad for the size of the 6D. However - should i by a new camera now, I would go for the 5D mkIV. It will serve me for the next 5-7+ years, and by that time, the landscape for RF lenses and bodies would be clear and mature. I know that the reselling price for my old EF gear at that time will be lower - but I am not a "buy and sell" person. I buy my gear, an use it as long as i last. 
For travel however - I see and idea for the future of R and RF - a bigger high-end pro body with large zooms and a smaller RP size body that can be used with an RF 24-105 f/4 and a 35mm for travel or street photography.

But for now, and for the next 10 years i think - I stay with EF cameras and lenses


----------



## koenkooi (Jan 22, 2020)

Stuart said:


> You will always need an evf for mirrorless.



Ehm, no. I'm doing fine with the M and M6II without an EVF.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 22, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Oh I am a pretty active camera club member, it's how I get to play with all the latest gear (only enthusiasts can justify most of it), I have recovered many corrupted cards from members and I have never failed to recover 'lost' images from corrupted, formatted, etc etc cards.
> 
> I use PhotoRec, it is free and as powerful as it gets, it takes a few minutes, an hour at most. I have never had an in use/camera card that has been corrupted to the point that recovery is impossible, I have seen cards so badly damaged from external causes that internal connections are damaged but that really is beyond almost any 'normal' use.



I had my very first instance of an unrecoverable card just earlier this week. I was working in my office and I heard a crunching noise behind me. When I turned to look I saw my six month old Brittany puppy had gotten a hold of an SD card I had lying on the coffee table. It was no longer a flat SD card, but rather looked more like a small black plastic flower in bloom.


----------



## canonnews (Jan 22, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> ... yet they refuse to provide a 5D RF alternative even for 2020?



I'm impressed by your ability to see in the future with certainty. can you PM me? i have a TON of questions to ask you 

In all seriousness. No one knows at this point in time, anything this far out you should know is highly variable. 

Everything takes time and everything has a priority, the RF mount is less than 18 months old.


----------



## AccipiterQ (Jan 22, 2020)

AlanF said:


> I have been out birding a lot in the good weather this last weekend and seen hordes of photographers. They were mainly with 7Ds and a few FF with the 100-400mm I and II, some big whites and 1Ds and tripods, probably 70% of the total, and then about 20% Nikons with the 200-500mm, and some Sigma 150-600mm across both makes, with a smattering of bridge camera. The only mirrorless was a Z7. What is it telling us? Well, despite the documented popularity of Sony amongst keen birders with Art Morris cheering on, they haven’t trickled down to the average person. And mirrorless is not popular in this pursuit at the mass level. Nikon has definitely increased significantly in popularity in my observations since the D500 and new Nikkor telephoto lenses. I think the 90D with 100-400mm II will sustain Canon at the lower end of the market in the meanwhile as it is good for perched birds. But it is not a 7DII successor as its focus for birds in flight is just OK and is not up to what is possible in terms of speed and tracking.



One caveat, Sony only recently started putting out really long lenses, the 600 just came out late last year for instance. They weren't going after that demo. I've noticed what you have as far as numbers. I'm curious how things look in a year's time.


----------



## -pekr- (Jan 22, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I'm impressed by your ability to see in the future with certainty. can you PM me? i have a TON of questions to ask you
> 
> In all seriousness. No one knows at this point in time, anything this far out you should know is highly variable.
> 
> Everything takes time and everything has a priority, the RF mount is less than 18 months old.



Feel free to PM me. I've got good insight into the photo industry, based upon the Canon rumours sites, mixed with the @HarryFilm insights. One Canon manager told me, that their marketing/sales team is using rumour sites too, to plan future releases, so beware what you post here


----------



## mjg79 (Jan 22, 2020)

If Canon can bring an Rm well under the price of the Rp I suspect it would be a great success. On forums like this we all debate dynamic range and resolution, needing a joystick, why we don't like this button here etc etc but that simply isn't the way most people are. Price is the single biggest factor for something like 95% of camera sales I am sure. Canon has always fought hard on this, making sure to have attractive bundles ready to go in department stores before christmas etc.

If they can keep pushing down the cost of full frame cameras I am all for it as it will build up the base of the Rf mount.

I start to get the feeling they are really going all in now on full frame and assuming that digital full frame will come to dominate in the way full frame film did. I have an M5 and love it but maybe the Ef-m mount is going to be only for very very small cameras. After all the Rp is already compact. Add on the 35mm 1.8 and you have a nice little system. If they can do the same again 100 or 200 dollars cheaper it should sell like hot cakes.


----------



## puffo25 (Jan 22, 2020)

MartinF. said:


> I am in a bit of same situation. I have a well functioning but also well used 6D, two top-of-line EF (L) Zooms and a handfull of good EF primes. My photography is a bit of everything - so I am glad for the size of the 6D. However - should i by a new camera now, I would go for the 5D mkIV. It will serve me for the next 5-7+ years, and by that time, the landscape for RF lenses and bodies would be clear and mature. I know that the reselling price for my old EF gear at that time will be lower - but I am not a "buy and sell" person. I buy my gear, an use it as long as i last.
> For travel however - I see and idea for the future of R and RF - a bigger high-end pro body with large zooms and a smaller RP size body that can be used with an RF 24-105 f/4 and a 35mm for travel or street photography.
> 
> But for now, and for the next 10 years i think - I stay with EF cameras and lenses


Thanks Martin. Only wondering if indeed RF lenses are now indeed sharper and after AF than EF. If that very true, than RF and R camera body looks as the natural choice.


----------



## slclick (Jan 22, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> ... yet they refuse to provide a 5D RF alternative even for 2020?





-pekr- said:


> Feel free to PM me. I've got good insight into the photo industry, based upon the Canon rumours sites, mixed with the @HarryFilm insights. One Canon manager told me, that their marketing/sales team is using rumour sites too, to plan future releases, so beware what you post here


By far the most entertaining post on the Internet today, and that's with all the shenanigans in DC as well!


----------



## canonnews (Jan 22, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Feel free to PM me. I've got good insight into the photo industry, based upon the Canon rumours sites, mixed with the @HarryFilm insights. One Canon manager told me, that their marketing/sales team is using rumour sites too, to plan future releases, so beware what you post here



You just sent chills down my spine with the mention of our good friend Harry.

Btw, where has Harry gone these days?


----------



## AlanF (Jan 22, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> One caveat, Sony only recently started putting out really long lenses, the 600 just came out late last year for instance. They weren't going after that demo. I've noticed what you have as far as numbers. I'm curious how things look in a year's time.


The Sony 100-400mm has been out for some time, but hasn't caught on over here. The Sony 200-600mm could be the game changer. It really is a stellar lens but it needs the A9 for BIF. However, I can see enthusiasts with deep pockets buying in to it with the A7RIV. The Canon shooters I see are not new buyers but tend to be mature individuals, many seniors, who have been upgrading their Canon gear over the years.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 22, 2020)

canonnews said:


> You just sent chills down my spine with the mention of our good friend Harry.
> 
> Btw, where has Harry gone these days?


He's busy writing new codecs for his shaving blade company in Germany.


----------



## unfocused (Jan 22, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Btw, where has Harry gone these days?



Great. Now you've done it.


----------



## Kit. (Jan 22, 2020)

canonnews said:


> You just sent chills down my spine with the mention of our good friend Harry.
> 
> Btw, where has Harry gone these days?


Getting instructions from Canon on how to mislead the competition.


----------



## Optics Patent (Jan 22, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> What has been ignored for all this commentary on specs is the shutter.
> 
> I am still waiting for a shutter from Canon on its 5 series cameras and its R series mirrorless to have a flash sync of 1/250 sec and not sound like hedge trimmers when going off.
> 
> ...



Thank you. I’m glad I switched to Canon but the sound of the RP shutter compared to any Nikon I’ve owned is like fingernails on a blackboard. Like broken plastic.


----------



## Danglin52 (Jan 22, 2020)

richperson said:


> You know these Canon cameras take still photos too, right?
> 
> Let me give you two examples:
> 
> ...


----------



## Danglin52 (Jan 22, 2020)

Joules said:


> What a messy thread
> 
> So we are basically sure that we'll get:
> 
> ...



They may not have enough fab capacity for the new sensor yet, which might motivate them to repurpose the older sensor technology in a lower end camera.


----------



## Optics Patent (Jan 22, 2020)

For an $800 Body why not just keep the RP and lower the price? What content would they need to remove?


----------



## richperson (Jan 22, 2020)

canonnews said:


> this isn't handled at all by a second card slot but handled by background wifi image transfer directly to your smartphone as you shoot.



That is another way to do it, and I use that also when I post directly. But, I often need to get quick images to someone else and appreciate having it on a card and not having to futz with my phone.


----------



## LensFungus (Jan 22, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> For an $800 Body why not just keep the RP and lower the price? What content would they need to remove?


Shutter button and lens mount.


----------



## NorskHest (Jan 22, 2020)

richperson said:


> You know these Canon cameras take still photos too, right?
> 
> Let me give you two examples:
> 
> ...


The only solutions I see here to these first world problems is you should not have bought an R and fire your assistant. If you have enough money for an assistant and like two cards why did you not buy a second R and take the same pic on both cameras.


----------



## StoicalEtcher (Jan 22, 2020)

Edward Winter said:


> Nobody wants a new DSLR format 5D MKV


I do!!


----------



## richperson (Jan 22, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> The only solutions I see here to these first world problems is you should not have bought an R and fire your assistant. If you have enough money for an assistant and like two cards why did you not buy a second R and take the same pic on both cameras.



because my "assistant" was a high school junior who volunteered and was tech savvy. I have camera bodies with both single and double card slots. I don't have to have them, but on rare occasions they come in very handy. As such, I would rather have one than not have one, but I bought the R without one, so it clearly isn't a requirement.


----------



## slclick (Jan 22, 2020)

StoicalEtcher said:


> I do!!


Well that's one and counting....seriously though folks, the 5DV would be one amazing camera, possibly with that nifty AF trackball thingy from the 1DX3. 

I truly enjoy this site, insightful comments, helpful hints but the overall intelligence level has plummeted as of late with fights over card slots, anything Sony related and saying things such as "Nobody wants________". Pure nonsense. Let's keep it civil please. It's making the Ye Olde 'Canon vs Nikon' arguments of yesteryear seem chivalrous by comparison. Maybe that's the reason we haven't seen Neuro very much?


----------



## Jack Douglas (Jan 22, 2020)

slclick said:


> Well that's one and counting....seriously though folks, the 5DV would be one amazing camera, possibly with that nifty AF trackball thingy from the 1DX3.
> 
> I truly enjoy this site, insightful comments, helpful hints but the overall intelligence level has plummeted as of late with fights over card slots, anything Sony related and saying things such as "Nobody wants________". Pure nonsense. Let's keep it civil please. It's making the Ye Olde 'Canon vs Nikon' arguments of yesteryear seem chivalrous by comparison. Maybe that's the reason we haven't seen Neuro very much?



Time to un-check this thread for sure. Typical of a rumour that really doesn't have any meat, so what else is there to say.

Jack


----------



## Tremotino (Jan 22, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> May I introduce myself so you know someone who isn't ever jumping to Sony.
> 
> Jack


#metoo

Tremotino


----------



## tron (Jan 22, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> He's busy writing new codecs for his shaving blade company in Germany.


I was late to see that. I was about to say that he's busy designing the new 16K video cameras with 240fps rate


----------



## tron (Jan 22, 2020)

slclick said:


> Well that's one and counting....seriously though folks, the 5DV would be one amazing camera, possibly with that nifty AF trackball thingy from the 1DX3.
> 
> I truly enjoy this site, insightful comments, helpful hints but the overall intelligence level has plummeted as of late with fights over card slots, anything Sony related and saying things such as "Nobody wants________". Pure nonsense. Let's keep it civil please. It's making the Ye Olde 'Canon vs Nikon' arguments of yesteryear seem chivalrous by comparison. Maybe that's the reason we haven't seen Neuro very much?


You took the 1 message troll too seriously!

Allow me to repost



Edward Winter said:


> Every photographer I know is perched on the fence ready to jump ship to Sony (or Fuji) if Canon doesn't drop an A7RIV equivalent in an R series mirrorless format before spring wedding season kicks off. GEEZ. Whats the dealio Canon? Nobody wants a new DSLR format 5D MKV. Though it would be WONDERFUL if one of the new R bodies was a Sony a7III equivalent (with 2 card slots) and priced accordingly.



 NEW TROLL WARNING!


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 22, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> The super affordable full frame RF camera... It's literally just a full frame sensor hooked up to a battery and a memory card. You have to keep in a dark fabric bag and quickly and carefully wave it behind a lens whenever you want to take a photo. It will be $300 and budget conscious shooters will rejoice. Tony Northrup will spend *hours* geeking out over this revolutionary new way to take photos. People waiting for a higher end mirrorless will be severely disappointed.


Nonsense, even if it is just a sensor and a battery if they put two card slots on it and it does 24p then it will be the influencers darling and everybody will faun over it. _"Cheapest camera a true pro can use", "new form factor for the pro and serious amateur photographer", "Canon break the mould and advance the form factor for Pro's"_ would be the headlines. 

Of course the following week some other company will fly the influencers to a nice location and lend them a new model for their never ending need for 'content' and the bargain RF will be forgotten by everybody but the fools that bought into it, but they can rest easy knowing if they ever had the time or inclination they could start a YouTube channel with a cinematic feel and if they ever bothered to use two cards they could have "backup".

</cynicism>


----------



## slclick (Jan 22, 2020)

tron said:


> You took the 1 message troll too seriously!
> 
> Allow me to repost
> 
> ...


Nah, I've been here the entire time, it's been a slow burn of idiocy.


----------



## FramerMCB (Jan 22, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I've actually read someone say a good photographer could use coke bottle ends as lenses and still make a great photo.


I think that would be a creative photographer. Who might also happen to be a good photographer...


----------



## AlanF (Jan 22, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I've actually read someone say a good photographer could use coke bottle ends as lenses and still make a great photo.


I've read lots of nonsense as well.


----------



## Adelino (Jan 22, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> The only solutions I see here to these first world problems is you should not have bought an R and fire your assistant. If you have enough money for an assistant and like two cards why did you not buy a second R and take the same pic on both cameras.


"same pic" on both cameras would be impossible.


----------



## Aaron Lozano (Jan 22, 2020)

Whatever they release, please make it easy for me to do the step


----------



## Aaron Lozano (Jan 22, 2020)

M. D. Vaden of Oregon said:


> This latest "rumor" is more what I anticipated Canon really doing. Looking forward to buying another. Below, EOS
> R & Canon RF 50mm 1.2 / www.mdvaden.com/redwoods.shtml
> 
> View attachment 188311


 It seems the model is a bit cold


----------



## Trey T (Jan 22, 2020)

Just got a $650 mint 7Dii to replace the decade old 7D. Got tired of waiting for 7Diii or EOS R equivalent. 

Gonna use 7Dii for another decade.


----------



## AlanF (Jan 22, 2020)

Trey T said:


> Just got a $650 mint 7Dii to replace the decade old 7D. Got tired of waiting for 7Diii or EOS R equivalent.
> 
> Gonna use 7Dii for another decade.


There will be many happy sticking to well-tested reliable DSLRs that do some jobs so well.


----------



## Juangrande (Jan 22, 2020)

Adelino said:


> "same pic" on both cameras would be impossible.


Not if you had a custom bracket that mounted two identical cameras with matching lenses and aligned them in perfect registration with each other and a dual trigger release.


----------



## tron (Jan 22, 2020)

M. D. Vaden of Oregon said:


> This latest "rumor" is more what I anticipated Canon really doing. Looking forward to buying another. Below, EOS
> R & Canon RF 50mm 1.2 / www.mdvaden.com/redwoods.shtml
> 
> View attachment 188311


Hmm it seems that could use a 300mm lens instead of a 50mm one


----------



## Stuart (Jan 22, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Ehm, no. I'm doing fine with the M and M6II without an EVF.


Well true, but the big live view rear screen is your electronic view finder.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Jan 22, 2020)

So you have no information of APS-C in RF mount, huge oversight if that's not released soon.

I agree EOS R was a path of least resistance release, stepchild of a 6DII and 5D4 that got them a product in the portfolio, but was hardly enticing except to diehards. I expect to see massive improvements in the next RF mount cameras and Sony should have something to worry about. They can't afford to screw this round up and even the advancements we've seem with DPAF performance in the M6II, and 1DXIII indicate the next round of FF mirroless will be much more capable in tracking, with good eye-AF.


----------



## slclick (Jan 22, 2020)

Mr Majestyk said:


> So you have no information of APS-C in RF mount, huge oversight if that's not released soon.
> 
> I agree EOS R was a path of least resistance release, stepchild of a 6DII and 5D4 that got them a product in the portfolio, but was hardly enticing except to diehards. I expect to see massive improvements in the next RF mount cameras and Sony should have something to worry about. They can't afford to screw this round up and even the advancements we've seem with DPAF performance in the M6II, and 1DXIII indicate the next round of FF mirroless will be much more capable in tracking, with good eye-AF.


I would love to read about a crop RF body yet I have not seen one single article. Could you point us to any credible info as to Canon rumors about them making one? I was under the impression aps-c wasn't in the cards. It would be nice for the 7D2 camp.


----------



## Kit. (Jan 22, 2020)

Stuart said:


> Well true, but the big live view rear screen is your electronic view finder.


Ok, then it's possible to make a camera cheaper than RP by removing _the second_ EVF.

Actually, it is possible to remove the LCD too. Just add a phone holder to the camera back and pair the phone over WiFi. Then Canon could also sell optional tilty-flippy phone holder accessories.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 22, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> The only solutions I see here to these first world problems is you should not have bought an R and fire your assistant. If you have enough money for an assistant and like two cards why did you not buy a second R and take the same pic on both cameras.


More importantly, why didn't he flick the lock tab on the SD card when he handed it off. Bad work practices and failed protocols will win out every time!


----------



## slclick (Jan 22, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Ok, then it's possible to make a camera cheaper than RP by removing _the second_ EVF.
> 
> Actually, it is possible to remove the LCD too. Just add a phone holder to the camera back and pair the phone over WiFi. Then Canon could also sell optional tilty-flippy phone holder accessories.


We're not calling the LCD an EVF, right? Because it's not.


----------



## BillB (Jan 22, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Four full frame cameras sounds impressive, but is it?
> 
> 1) 1Dx III
> 2) EOS Rp (High megapixel
> ...


How about anticipatory rants based on the conviction that Canon will once again provide too little too late?


----------



## mjg79 (Jan 22, 2020)

slclick said:


> I would love to read about a crop RF body yet I have not seen one single article. Could you point us to any credible info as to Canon rumors about them making one? I was under the impression aps-c wasn't in the cards. It would be nice for the 7D2 camp.



I think there is a chance that Canon is going to have two distinct lines. Ef-m for crop, RF for full frame.

Before about 2012 the tech made sense to put crop sensors with mounts that allowed people to mount full frame lenses, eg 7D with 400/5.6 made sense for birders especially those upgrading from entry rebels. But the higher resolution sensors now in full frame mean this is less and less important. The costs of full frame sensors have come down hugely. For birders there will remain an advantage perhaps but I think it's no longer such a big deal. And with lower price full frame cameras the typical upgrade path doesn't necessarily now start with a crop camera. I might be wrong, Thom Hogan, who I respect, in every single article about Canon goes on and on about how it's a huge mistake to have two distinct lines because people like him love to put full frame telephotos on crop cameras. 

So what advantage is afforded by two lines? Size. If you pick up and hold one of the Ef-m cameras you might be shocked how tiny it is. For most consumers, price and size remain the two key things - especially as smartphones get better. So if Canon can produce tiny crop sensor cameras for the mass market this might be a good trade off. Canon always has an eye on the consumer market and the professional too - so we are really talking about a product line for each.

The alternative was a single mount. If they took the Sony approach of a smaller mount it makes some lens design a bit more difficult - of course they can have 0.95 lenses in Sony (and Leica M) but from what I've read the design is more complex. It also results in weird ergonomics with big bulging lenses going to small mounts. Indeed Canon actually said that with the RF 70-200 the larger mount allowed them to position the optics to allow for fewer elements and lighter weight.

There is the Nikon route of putting everything through one giant mount. That does allow easier full frame lens design but it means there is a limit to how small the cameras can be and they become quite ungainly, dominated by a big mount in the middle, eg the Z50.

The particular pattern we had from 2000 until recently where because of cost and legacy lenses many people mixed full frame glass with crop cameras was always a bit strange in some ways though it made sense.

Personally I think if Canon has split the lines permanently that is likely to be a good decision, both for ergonomics and price point but also because it means one gets the "right" size mount for a given sensor. How many people really today are choosing between an M50 and an R? I think outside some birders it won't be many and if Canon really does come with a 60/70+ mp Rs they would likely be better served by that.

Just my thoughts - and as I said plenty of experts think Canon has got it wrong but many of them, in my view, are looking at it like it will be 2005 forever.


----------



## mjg79 (Jan 22, 2020)

BillB said:


> How about anticipatory rants based on the conviction that Canon will once again provide too little too late?



Canon has been ******* now for as long as I can remember!


----------



## tron (Jan 22, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Ok, then it's possible to make a camera cheaper than RP by removing _the second_ EVF.
> 
> Actually, it is possible to remove the LCD too. Just add a phone holder to the camera back and pair the phone over WiFi. Then Canon could also sell optional tilty-flippy phone holder accessories.


You know gentlemen that with this logic all Canon DSLRs starting from 40D have EVFs?  
So let them keep their mirrors (what's a mirror between friends) and there are your new beloved long awaited cameras


----------



## djkraq (Jan 23, 2020)

I don't understand why people are saying the RF glass is better. It's a different design but not necessarily better. Depending on the application, the lens design can be negligible. I actually think rd glass will still be relevant. I think RF mount benefits wide angle lens design more than telephoto. If this isn't true let me know. Even the Sony mirrorless telephoto lenses are slightly lighter than dslr lenses. For me, I just want the rf mount to use the mirrorless features on ef glass with mirrorless features.


----------



## tron (Jan 23, 2020)

djkraq said:


> I don't understand why people are saying the RF glass is better. It's a different design but not necessarily better. Depending on the application, the lens design can be negligible. I actually think rd glass will still be relevant. I think RF mount benefits wide angle lens design more than telephoto. If this isn't true let me know. Even the Sony mirrorless telephoto lenses are slightly lighter than dslr lenses. For me, I just want the rf mount to use the mirrorless features on ef glass with mirrorless features.


Only sites like LensRentals and The-Digital-Picture can tell us which glass is better. For me, I got the EOS R to enjoy 2.8L IS zooms that weren't available in EF form. They don't have to be better (although I would love that of course). Same more or less with IS would do. For big white is it EF glass and nothing else.


----------



## mjg79 (Jan 23, 2020)

djkraq said:


> I don't understand why people are saying the RF glass is better. It's a different design but not necessarily better. Depending on the application, the lens design can be negligible. I actually think rd glass will still be relevant. I think RF mount benefits wide angle lens design more than telephoto. If this isn't true let me know. Even the Sony mirrorless telephoto lenses are slightly lighter than dslr lenses. For me, I just want the rf mount to use the mirrorless features on ef glass with mirrorless features.



What you wrote is broadly true. The real benefits of mirrorless are felt with wider angle designs. Looking at Sony for example their 16-35 GM and 24/1.4GM are both designs superior to any SLR wide angle lens and they are smaller and lighter. (The poor quality control of the 16-35 is down to Sony's manufacturing not the design). By contrast the Sony 50/1.4 doesn't offer any real size benefit over an SLR equivalent and nor does the 70-200 GM.

Having the ability to have more freedom to place elements is always welcome though. And Canon appears to have even found advantage in the 70-200 by putting the rear most element in a better spot to be able to reduce the number of elements.

But the 24-70s show that there isn't anything like as much advantage once you get beyond about 24mm. The EF 24-70 2.8L II remains an outstanding 24-70. The Sony, Canon and Nikon mirrorless 24-70s are not radically smaller or better than SLR equivalents.

As for telephoto lenses certainly beyond 200mm we will not see huge changes and the EF standards in those focal lengths will remain for years. Some others such as the recent TS lenses I think will be a long, long time before they get updated in RF - maybe we will get a new 17mm and 24mm but the longer stuff is rather pointless to update.

One area that does seem to be much improved by mirrorless though is the teleconverters. Sony's are outstanding and tiny - a great combination. I am excited to see what Canon does in that area.

Expect to see some great wide angle lenses in RF mount. I hope for a very small f/4 zoom as a landscape dream lens and something that is good for wide angle astrophotography like a 14mm f2 would be nice. Also smaller aperture, f/1.8 and f/2 primes seem to get more benefit from the mirrorless design and I hope Canon pushes on with more lenses like the RF 35/1.8 IS - a 20/2.8, 28/2, 50/1.8, 85/1.8 and 100/2 would be the foundation for a really good set up with the cheaper and smaller Rf cameras.


----------



## slclick (Jan 23, 2020)

BillB said:


> How about anticipatory rants based on the conviction that Canon will once again provide too little too late?


Yes, let's invite in a prelude of pain and discontent prior to a imaginary event.


----------



## tron (Jan 23, 2020)

Actually Canon's wide angle EF zooms are already very good in EF mount. But the addition of IS is a plus. Also the 50 1.2 and 85 1.2 are better than the EF counterparts (however the very good EF85 1.4 is available and it has IS).


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 23, 2020)

djkraq said:


> I don't understand why people are saying the RF glass is better. It's a different design but not necessarily better. Depending on the application, the lens design can be negligible. I actually think rd glass will still be relevant. I think RF mount benefits wide angle lens design more than telephoto. If this isn't true let me know. Even the Sony mirrorless telephoto lenses are slightly lighter than dslr lenses. For me, I just want the rf mount to use the mirrorless features on ef glass with mirrorless features.


The RF glass I have is better than any EF glass I had in the focal lengths I have experience with. I had the EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II. It is a great lens. On the other hand, there is just something special about the RF 28-70mm f/2L other than it being faster. I owned the EF 35mm f/1.4L II and it was a fantastic lens. I'll be interested to see whether the RF version of the future can match or top it. It was a special lens in my opinion. The only EF 50mm I ever owned was the EF 50mm f/1.4. It sucked compared to the RF 50mm f/1.2L... and it is not wide angle. Then again, one would expect the L to beat the regular EF non-L. I never owned an EF 85mm so can't speak to that, however, the RF 85mm (a telephoto) is stellar in my opinion.

What I don't understand is why people say that the RF mount may not necessarily be as much benefit to telephoto or super telephoto as to wide angle. Just because that might be the case for Sony (I wouldn't know), doesn't mean that will be the case for Canon which has a larger diameter mount.

"Benefit" can mean a lot of things. It can mean IQ. It can mean size. It can mean other things I am not aware of. Are there EF lenses I miss? Yes, but probably because they are not yet available to me in RF yet. I miss the EF 35mm f/1.4L II. I miss my old 135mm f/2L. I really liked the EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II, but I don't miss it at all. I am happy I never bought an EF 85mm. I still don't miss my EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II, but it was a great lens.

Since there are no super telephoto lenses available in RF yet we'll just have to wait and see what Canon can do EF vs RF in that dept. I think it is premature to make that call at this time.

I came to the R from the 5D Mark III. The focus accuracy of the R over the 5D Mark III is indisputable. I assume (maybe wrongly) that the R also beats the focus accuracy of the 5D Mark IV (I am talking about static subjects. Portraits, not BIF). AFMA? Never again for me. So it isn't just about the mount. As the Canon mirrorless line matures I think we will see more benefit. Right now, both DSLR and mirrorless have their own advantages and disadvantages depending upon use case.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jan 23, 2020)

please Canon, just add IBIS in all new ILC. just do it, please


----------



## navastronia (Jan 23, 2020)

I just want to chime in unhelpfully that for my current uses (portrait, event, wedding), I don't need anything higher spec'd than the RP, and also, that I don't anticipate upgrading beyond the R (if/when I get one) until 2021 at the earliest, and only if _that_ body has IBIS and a fast-readout sensor w/ a great electronic shutter mode.


----------



## goldilocks_focus (Jan 23, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> And that's the problem - EOS R basically uses a 5DIV sensor, which we've already got with the 5DIV itself, naturally. We (as in our studio) don't need/want another 5DIV, what we need after thoser 4 years is a completly new upgraded camera, moving our used 5DIV to the backup.
> 
> It seems no such upgrade is coming in 2020, while 5DV possibility is mentioned in the article. That's interesting, because we've already decided 5DIV was probably our last pro DSLR ever. So Canon releasing a 5DV has no buy in our book. I have a gut feeling our aproach is going to be followed by many others.
> 
> Well, for the time being, if there is a need, we could reverse the situation by buying some cheaper R variant (R, Rp, Rm) to be the secondary body, while waiting for the 5DV in an R form. There is also one possibility - if the high mpx body has still better sensor characteristics than 5DIV, we might consider it as well.


Yes, I agree! Look what they did with 1DX iii, the almost same resolution with minor design tweaks (after 4 years). unless canon bumps up the resolution and include IBIS, EOS R mark ii is useless !!


----------



## goldilocks_focus (Jan 23, 2020)

BillB said:


> How about anticipatory rants based on the conviction that Canon will once again provide too little too late?



1. IDX mark iii
2. 5DV
3. 5DSR ii
4. EOS R (High Megapixel)

There will be no EOS R mark ii! I highly doubt it!!


----------



## mppix (Jan 23, 2020)

BillB said:


> How about anticipatory rants based on the conviction that Canon will once again provide too little too late?



No BSI sensor with global shutter and anti-rolling gyro? Canon is *******.

Jokes apart, it would be good to see some of the 1DXiii tech trickle down to the high res body.


----------



## Danglin52 (Jan 23, 2020)

tron said:


> Since I have a 7DII (but use mostly 5DsR) for birding but I am thinking about getting 90D sometime in the future can you please clarify a little more? Like: Which kind of lenses did you use? (I use 100-400 but mostly 400DOII and 500II) Was the AF inconsistent in high fps AI servo cases mostly?
> 
> Any info would be welcome...



I had my 1dx II with me for my 200-400, so the 100-400 II stayed on the 90d for most of the trip. I did do some shooting with the 70-200 f4 II and 200-400, but nothing exciting. I was shooting in servo, with single point / zone using backbitten focus (which I always use). If you had an animal moving quick and went into a 8-10 shot burst, about frame 7 or 8 it would loose focus. I don't typically shoot anything longer than 8-10 and that is when something is really moving or I want to capture movement. It did seem to find it's way back after several miss-focused shots if I held the burst. This was in wide open spaces in YNP with no trees or high grass to grab focus. I will say the image and high ISO were much better than anything I ever got with my 7d /7d II. I really wanted to like the camera, so I gave it every chance. The trip was end September / beginning of October 2019 right after the camera was released.


----------



## mppix (Jan 23, 2020)

mjg79 said:


> I think there is a chance that Canon is going to have two distinct lines. Ef-m for crop, RF for full frame.



Makes sense but there can still be an APS-C R body in addition to the EF-M system, where the latter is somewhere between the R and powershot in cost and size.


----------



## SteveC (Jan 23, 2020)

mppix said:


> Makes sense but there can still be an APS-C R body in addition to the EF-M system, where the latter is somewhere between the R and powershot in cost and size.



There COULD.

But I strongly suspect all of you pining for such a thing will be disappointed, forever.


----------



## Adam Shutter Bug (Jan 23, 2020)

As one of the EOS R early adopters it has been a great camera. However Canon has short changed it in many areas. The EOS R2 looks good spec wise but almost feels entry level again compared to what Sony is producing. Canon needs a camera that can compete with the A74 with image size and the A92 with performance. A true Wildlife and Action mirrorless camera.


----------



## Joules (Jan 23, 2020)

mjg79 said:


> What you wrote is broadly true. The real benefits of mirrorless are felt with wider angle designs.


I wonder if the idea that mirrorless helps only wide lenses will go away once we see more RF lenses. It isn't true anyway as the removal of the mirror box already is a big benefit for large aperture lenses of all focal lengths. 

Sony has a poor mount and therefore they are a bad example of what can be achieved. And Nikon only just started using a wide mount. Maybe Canon will surprise us, given their vast experience with the EF Mount and its restrictions. At least I don't see them sharing the opinion that the longer lenses won't improve much. 

To quote the Canon RF white paper:

"The new RF mount makes possible greater lens design flexibilities:
1. Large diameter rear lens elements that are much closer to the full frame image sensor — enhancing overall optical performance (in particular, tighter control over optical 
aberrations at image extremities)
2. Lenses having the same specifications for focal length and maximum aperture as current EF 
mount lenses — but having significantly higher image quality — within the same size and weight
3. High optical performance, large aperture (F1.2) prime lenses for full frame cameras
4. Zoom lenses of higher brightness with constant aperture over their focal ranges — while still modest in size and weight

The following section is intended to convey the critical importance of back focus distance and rear lens 
diameter on the overall optical performance of a given lens."

It's not just about the _distance_ of the last element. It is also about its _size_ - which Canon claims they can make much bigger now.

With such advancements on lens design and the ability to balance a lenses weaknesses with software like they did on the 24-240mm, it seems plausible to say that APS-C cameras will be limited to only the smallest of cameras (M line). 

What people have to consider is this:

On EF going from APS-C to FF required a bigger sensor, a bigger mirror, a bigger shutter stronger motors for the mirror and shutter, a bigger optical viewfinder and in most cases a higher quality one.

That's a lot of components that need to scale up and add to the cost. With mirrorless, you can share the same EVF or even drop it completely. There's no larger optical components. There is no mirror and no larger motors. There might not even be a shutter, if Canon thinks they can get away with an eshutter only camera...

If that's the direction Canon is going it makes sense to me to keep the RF mount pure and not muddle it's appeal with compromised crop lenses and APS-C bodies that are incompatible with EF-M and confuse the market.


----------



## AlanF (Jan 23, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I had my 1dx II with me for my 200-400, so the 100-400 II stayed on the 90d for most of the trip. I did do some shooting with the 70-200 f4 II and 200-400, but nothing exciting. I was shooting in servo, with single point / zone using backbitten focus (which I always use). If you had an animal moving quick and went into a 8-10 shot burst, about frame 7 or 8 it would loose focus. I don't typically shoot anything longer than 8-10 and that is when something is really moving or I want to capture movement. It did seem to find it's way back after several miss-focused shots if I held the burst. This was in wide open spaces in YNP with no trees or high grass to grab focus. I will say the image and high ISO were much better than anything I ever got with my 7d /7d II. I really wanted to like the camera, so I gave it every chance. The trip was end September / beginning of October 2019 right after the camera was released.


Your experience coincides with what I have found and reported here since last September. We should not expect the AF of a $7000 1D series on a $1000 xxD. The 90D is a great choice for a nature hike or safari attached to a 100-400mm II (or a 400mm DO II) in reasonable light, and I use it for that regularly. It aids very good reach and will give a good keeper rate for predictably moving birds that are not flying too fast. But, its AF is not as fast or as consistent as a 5DIV, which I have tended to for BIF or when faster AF is required. There is currently or maybe even for the long term no one camera or one manufacturer that does everything for all customers. Canon chose not to make an APS-C using the AF module from its upper ranges of bodies. Nikon did so successfully with the D500, but I don't know if it's an economic success. Many here on CR shoot across manufacturers, choosing different makers for their different activities. I wish Canon would have put out a true 7DII replacement. I certainly don't regret buying the 90D but I am one of many who would have paid twice the cost to have its IQ with a top rate AF module rather than the recycled 80D one.


----------



## degos (Jan 23, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> What I don't understand is why people say that the RF mount may not necessarily be as much benefit to telephoto or super telephoto as to wide angle.



Because Canon themselves said that.

As to 'better' glass, they could make an extending 70-200 2.8IS IV for EF that would be every bit as good as the RF version. But that would eliminate the upgrade incentive, so they don't. The mark III superwhites show what the combination of EF and the latest lens technology can achieve, but that won't be repeated for EF in the future.


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## Kit. (Jan 23, 2020)

achelseaphotographer said:


> The successor to the 5Ds was canceled and there is no 5DV in sight. I have started selling a few of my Canon lenses, and while I am going to keep some, all my purchases now are for either the D850, the A7R3 or the 645Z. Still, I am upset that Canon is not releasing a high megapixel DSLR with better dynamic range than the 5Ds... F*ck Canon! I hope they go bankrupt!


Shouldn't you also buy Fuji GFX100?


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## tron (Jan 23, 2020)

Ha ha according to previous posts you have them so one of the two posts is not true.

This is a 2019 post


achelseaphotographer said:


> I, for one, would buy it if it were an SLR, but I am not buying into the R system. I am happy with my A7R3 and with my D850. I rather get the A7R4.



And this is the 2020


achelseaphotographer said:


> The successor to the 5Ds was canceled and there is no 5DV in sight. I have started selling a few of my Canon lenses, and while I am going to keep some, all my purchases now are for either the D850, the A7R3 or the 645Z. Still, I am upset that Canon is not releasing a high megapixel DSLR with better dynamic range than the 5Ds... F*ck Canon! I hope they go bankrupt!



However I share your feelings and wish about 5DsRMkII. I want one too (actually two!)


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## Quarkcharmed (Jan 23, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Never thought of downsampling to reduce blur to be honest. Either way, I’d still rather have a lower MP count if it meant better high iso performance.



In the practical sense, 90D has more megapixels than 80D, better DR and better low light performance. Also better autofocus and higher fps. So it's better in literally all important areas for wildlife, technically there's no reason to complain about higher megapixels.


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## AlanF (Jan 23, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> In the practical sense, 90D has more megapixels than 80D, better DR and better low light performance. Also better autofocus and higher fps. So it's better in literally all important areas for wildlife, technically there's no reason to complain about higher megapixels.


It has the same DR and low light performance as the 80D 


Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting


and what appears to be the same AF module. I bought it for the Mpx, the 10fps, point focus and excellent mirrorless performance in LV. It's a very nice piece of kit that could be even better. Remember that the low light performance is the same as the 80D only when printed or viewed to the same size, but not per pixel. A 1000x1000px grid on the 90D would have worse noise than a 1000x1000 on the 80D, for example.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jan 23, 2020)

Very strange. I remembered I checked the same diagram and 90D was better than 80D. Now it's not. Or I was checking it against something else, not 80D.
Anyway, that means I was wrong, 90D isn't better than 80D in every sensor spec.



AlanF said:


> It has the same DR and low light performance as the 80D
> 
> 
> Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting
> ...


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## Ozarker (Jan 23, 2020)

achelseaphotographer said:


> The successor to the 5Ds was canceled and there is no 5DV in sight. I have started selling a few of my Canon lenses, and while I am going to keep some, all my purchases now are for either the D850, the A7R3 or the 645Z. Still, I am upset that Canon is not releasing a high megapixel DSLR with better dynamic range than the 5Ds... F*ck Canon! I hope they go bankrupt!


Ahhhh... the rare eclectic troll.


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## canonnews (Jan 23, 2020)

mppix said:


> Makes sense but there can still be an APS-C R body in addition to the EF-M system, where the latter is somewhere between the R and powershot in cost and size.



I think you're going to see the RF line revert to what it was with film, sans the IX bastard child.

If canon can do a sub $800 full frame camera, they'll do the entire line with full frame. and why not?

Canon has a HUGE advantage over the other companies, they can manufacturer in Japan - and it's almost entirely all automated. Especially for something like a mirrorless camera.


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## canonnews (Jan 23, 2020)

Stuart said:


> Well true, but the big live view rear screen is your electronic view finder.



I wouldn't be surpised to see an EOS Rm be like the M's where you can use the EVF-DC1 or EVF-DC2 but it doesn't come with an EVF built in.


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## Don Haines (Jan 23, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Very strange. I remembered I checked the same diagram and 90D was better than 80D. Now it's not. Or I was checking it against something else, not 80D.
> Anyway, that means I was wrong, 90D isn't better than 80D in every sensor spec.


It all depends on how you look at it.
Essentialy, the quantum efficiency of all the latest cameras is the same within a few percent. The days of big differences between models and manufacturers is over. Everyone is within a half stop.

With the same amount of photons hitting the sensor, pixel size becomes very important. The smaller the pixel, the less light hits it, and the lower the DR you get. As an extreme example, look at a 10Mpixel and a 40Mpixel sensor.... The 10M sensor will have 4 times the light hitting each pixel, and as a result will have 2 stops better DR. HOWEVER, you can take the 40M image and resample it to 10M and end up with the same DR. 

More pixels is a tradeoff between resolution and pixel quality, except with the greater resolution you can decide in post production if you want to keep the resolution, resample for quality, or a combination of the two. You have more total information.


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## Stuart (Jan 23, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I wouldn't be surpised to see an EOS Rm be like the M's where you can use the EVF-DC1 or EVF-DC2 but it doesn't come with an EVF built in.


Perhaps then with a flip up screen this might be a good blogger Video product.


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## slclick (Jan 23, 2020)

Stuart said:


> Perhaps then with a flip up screen this might be a good blogger Video product.


Is there a market for full frame vlogging?


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## Stuart (Jan 23, 2020)

slclick said:


> Is there a market for full frame vlogging?


FF should be better in low light, say in normal room lighting? No new mount APS-c RF bodies yet. e.g. An FF M200


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## amorse (Jan 23, 2020)

slclick said:


> Is there a market for full frame vlogging?


vloggers do seem to love their extra blurry backgrounds


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## Ozarker (Jan 23, 2020)

slclick said:


> Is there a market for full frame vlogging?


Reading some of the posts around here I get the impression nothing short of a 1D or 5D with IBIS and external recording is viable.


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## amorse (Jan 23, 2020)

Mr Majestyk said:


> So you have no information of APS-C in RF mount, huge oversight if that's not released soon.
> 
> I agree EOS R was a path of least resistance release, stepchild of a 6DII and 5D4 that got them a product in the portfolio, but was hardly enticing except to diehards. I expect to see massive improvements in the next RF mount cameras and Sony should have something to worry about. They can't afford to screw this round up and even the advancements we've seem with DPAF performance in the M6II, and 1DXIII indicate the next round of FF mirroless will be much more capable in tracking, with good eye-AF.


Honestly, I don't think that's going to be coming any time soon: I haven't seen a lot of rumours that suggest an RF APS-C camera is in the cards. From my perspective, I often felt a lot of Canon's APS-C bodies had a smaller sensor really just to keep costs down: they need the average person to be able to afford a camera, and having the EF-S mount also take EF lenses gave people a transition pathway to more expensive bodies should they want to get more invested in the hobby. With that said, if they plan on making a full frame RF body cheaper than an RP, then they may not need to shrink the sensor to get the price down to an acceptable level and thus there may not be a place for an APS-C RF body. That will suck for current 7DII users, but the market seems to have moved away from ruggedized APS-C sports shooters, well, at least Canon and Nikon seem to be leaving that space for better or worse.


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## AlanF (Jan 23, 2020)

Don Haines said:


> It all depends on how you look at it.
> Essentialy, the quantum efficiency of all the latest cameras is the same within a few percent. The days of big differences between models and manufacturers is over. Everyone is within a half stop.
> 
> With the same amount of photons hitting the sensor, pixel size becomes very important. The smaller the pixel, the less light hits it, and the lower the DR you get. As an extreme example, look at a 10Mpixel and a 40Mpixel sensor.... The 10M sensor will have 4 times the light hitting each pixel, and as a result will have 2 stops better DR. HOWEVER, you can take the 40M image and resample it to 10M and end up with the same DR.
> ...


The DRs that are published are for output to a particular size of printing and not per pixel. All sensors are scaled to the same output size on tje photons to photos site and elsewhere. And, at higher isos where fluctuations in photon flux is the source of noise, all moderns sensors are indeed very similar per unit area. Where they differ is a low iso where the electronic noise generated by the circuits alter the basal levels.


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## Stuart (Jan 23, 2020)

amorse said:


> Honestly, I don't think that's going to be coming any time soon: I haven't seen a lot of rumours that suggest an RF APS-C camera is in the cards. From my perspective, I often felt a lot of Canon's APS-C bodies had a smaller sensor really just to keep costs down: they need the average person to be able to afford a camera, and having the EF-S mount also take EF lenses gave people a transition pathway to more expensive bodies should they want to get more invested in the hobby. With that said, if they plan on making a full frame RF body cheaper than an RP, then they may not need to shrink the sensor to get the price down to an acceptable level and thus there may not be a place for an APS-C RF body. That will suck for current 7DII users, but the market seems to have moved away from ruggedized APS-C sports shooters, well, at least Canon and Nikon seem to be leaving that space for better or worse.



The attraction of the 7D series was also the extra shooting range for motorsports, sports, airshows, birders etc. Also the high frame rate for capturing action.
With some of the RF rumours promising much longer reach lenses, the need for smaller sensors to get the reach goes away if the lenses are not too expensive.
And keeping the MegaPixels low means todays achievable frame rates can easily rise to capture the action.


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## amorse (Jan 23, 2020)

Stuart said:


> The attraction of the 7D series was also the extra shooting range for motorsports, sports, airshows, birders etc. Also the high frame rate for capturing action.
> With some of the RF rumours promising much longer reach lenses, the need for smaller sensors to get the reach goes away if the lenses are not too expensive.
> And keeping the MegaPixels low means todays achievable frame rates can easily rise to capture the action.


Absolutely agreed. I just wonder if the larger companies are willing to produce a 7d-style body any more. With Canon leaving the 7D series alone and Nikon not continuing the D500 series, I half suspect there was an economic conclusion both companies independently reached which indicated that it wasn't in their interest to offer that type of body any longer. I think it is getting easier to build cameras with crazy frame rates and APS-C image quality is really quite good, so I wonder if a rugged/high-speed APS-C body would just compete too much with full frame equivalents for Canon/Nikon's likings. Maybe, if a very high frame rate won't be uncommon in lower tier bodies, lacking the ruggedization of a 7D-series body will create a clear distinction from the higher end bodies. I mean, the M6II has 14 fps right now and can get all the reach needed via adapted EF glass - so there are high-speed APS-C bodies available, just not rugged ones. I wonder if that will be the new norm, for better or worse.


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## gdanmitchell (Jan 23, 2020)

neurorx said:


> No 5DV or equivalent?



That would be the "third Canon EOS R body" mentioned above.


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## AlanF (Jan 23, 2020)

Stuart said:


> The attraction of the 7D series was also the extra shooting range for motorsports, sports, airshows, birders etc. Also the high frame rate for capturing action.
> With some of the RF rumours promising much longer reach lenses, the need for smaller sensors to get the reach goes away if the lenses are not too expensive.
> And keeping the MegaPixels low means todays achievable frame rates can easily rise to capture the action.


Longer reach lenses on RF FF means more weight. Low Mpx on FF means that longer reach requires even bigger and heavier lenses. One of the great virtues of a smaller sensor is that shorter and lighter lenses give the same reach as longer and heavier on FF in decent light. A 100-400 on a 90D gives the same reach as an 800mm on a ID series (1.6 crop factor x 1.26 Mpx resolution factor = 2x), at a tiny fraction of the price and a fraction of the weight. OK, better IQ, AF, low light performance etc for the FF, but try taking it on a hike or hand holding for BIF even if you can afford it and the lens.


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## slclick (Jan 23, 2020)

Stuart said:


> FF should be better in low light, say in normal room lighting? No new mount APS-c RF bodies yet. e.g. An FF M200


Indoor room lighting isn't what I think of when I think of low light. If you are vlogging in a dimly lit room, purchasing a FF camera body isn't your first concern.


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## Edward Winter (Jan 23, 2020)

slclick said:


> Well that's one and counting....seriously though folks, the 5DV would be one amazing camera, possibly with that nifty AF trackball thingy from the 1DX3.
> 
> I truly enjoy this site, insightful comments, helpful hints but the overall intelligence level has plummeted as of late with fights over card slots, anything Sony related and saying things such as "Nobody wants________". Pure nonsense. Let's keep it civil please. It's making the Ye Olde 'Canon vs Nikon' arguments of yesteryear seem chivalrous by comparison. Maybe that's the reason we haven't seen Neuro very much?



Definitely not nonsense and if you read that comment in context you should understand that its more of a plea to Canon to get their sh*t together and release a decent mirrorless camera. Perhaps, sometime last year please?! Sony is years ahead in this regard, which is why they are currently gobbling up the lion's share of the full frame market. Most, if not every pro photographer I know and work with will never buy another new DSLR because of the body size and the front/back focusing issues associated with microfocus lens calibration. Sure, a MKV with 15 stops of DR and eye focus would be swell (finally), but it still wouldn't beat the competition.




slclick said:


> Well that's one and counting....seriously though folks, the 5DV would be one amazing camera, possibly with that nifty AF trackball thingy from the 1DX3.
> 
> I truly enjoy this site, insightful comments, helpful hints but the overall intelligence level has plummeted as of late with fights over card slots, anything Sony related and saying things such as "Nobody wants________". Pure nonsense. Let's keep it civil please. It's making the Ye Olde 'Canon vs Nikon' arguments of yesteryear seem chivalrous by comparison. Maybe that's the reason we haven't seen Neuro very much?


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## djkraq (Jan 23, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> The RF glass I have is better than any EF glass I had in the focal lengths I have experience with. I had the EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II. It is a great lens. On the other hand, there is just something special about the RF 28-70mm f/2L other than it being faster. I owned the EF 35mm f/1.4L II and it was a fantastic lens. I'll be interested to see whether the RF version of the future can match or top it. It was a special lens in my opinion. The only EF 50mm I ever owned was the EF 50mm f/1.4. It sucked compared to the RF 50mm f/1.2L... and it is not wide angle. Then again, one would expect the L to beat the regular EF non-L. I never owned an EF 85mm so can't speak to that, however, the RF 85mm (a telephoto) is stellar in my opinion.
> 
> What I don't understand is why people say that the RF mount may not necessarily be as much benefit to telephoto or super telephoto as to wide angle. Just because that might be the case for Sony (I wouldn't know), doesn't mean that will be the case for Canon which has a larger diameter mount.
> 
> ...



No it doesn't. I had used both the EOS R and 5D Mark 4 for both photo and video and the EOS R performed almost as good as my 5D Mark IV in AF testing. Don't get me wrong, I love the EOS R and hope to own one soon, but for comparison as you can see, you're comparing Canon lenses of less quality etf to the rf L glass. Compare an ef zeiss or sigma art and it your opinion will change. Canon ef L lenses were designed more with build/weight in mind than IQ. As I said the lenses are different but not necessarily better. I like the 28-70 f2 rf mount. Its very interesting. Ef would be huge! Comparing a $2800 lens (rf 50mm) to a 15+ year ef lens I dont think its fair. Optical coatings and lens material has changed significantly


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## Edward Winter (Jan 23, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Actually, Ed, if you'd been around for longer than your single post around here you'd know that your "nobody wants" comment is nothing more than silliness and ignorance. Go buy the Sony. All your friends too.


I intend on using whatever tool works best. And for me, that has been Canon since the original 5D was released. But I'm definitely not a brand loyalist and will gladly switch up if I can get more DR and lowlight in another system.


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## Edward Winter (Jan 23, 2020)

geffy said:


> The type of photographers that jump ship tend to just do that, its too much hassle for someone that takes pictures and they just accept the short comings as the end pic is acceptable with any modern camera, jumpers tend to be on elastic and careful questioning of their photographic career reveals a history of such and a mantra of gear.


I've been shooting Canon since my dad's AE-1 and digital since the original 5D came out. But I'm not a brand loyalist and will gladly change systems if I can get more DR, lowlight, and focus performance. I think the only thing keeping me (and every other photog I know) around is this 2020 announcement and the hopes of incorporating that baller new RF 50mm. Otherwise, I'll upgrade the tools through another brand if need be.


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## Ozarker (Jan 23, 2020)

djkraq said:


> No it doesn't. I had used both the EOS R and 5D Mark 4 for both photo and video and the EOS R performed almost as good as my 5D Mark IV in AF testing. Don't get me wrong, I love the EOS R and hope to own one soon, but for comparison as you can see, you're comparing Canon lenses of less quality etf to the rf L glass. Compare an ef zeiss or sigma art and it your opinion will change. Canon ef L lenses were designed more with build/weight in mind than IQ. As I said the lenses are different but not necessarily better. I like the 28-70 f2 rf mount. Its very interesting. Ef would be huge! Comparing a $2800 lens (rf 50mm) to a 15+ year ef lens I dont think its fair. Optical coatings and lens material has changed significantly


Yes is does for me, vs the 5D mark III. For you with the Mark IV maybe so. I used L glass on both of mine. My 5D Mark III consistently hit eyelashes more than Iris too many times. I do have a question though. You say you had used. Which firmware version did the R you used have? That makes a huge difference for tracking and eye-AF.


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## Danglin52 (Jan 23, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Your experience coincides with what I have found and reported here since last September. We should not expect the AF of a $7000 1D series on a $1000 xxD. The 90D is a great choice for a nature hike or safari attached to a 100-400mm II (or a 400mm DO II) in reasonable light, and I use it for that regularly. It aids very good reach and will give a good keeper rate for predictably moving birds that are not flying too fast. But, its AF is not as fast or as consistent as a 5DIV, which I have tended to for BIF or when faster AF is required. There is currently or maybe even for the long term no one camera or one manufacturer that does everything for all customers. Canon chose not to make an APS-C using the AF module from its upper ranges of bodies. Nikon did so successfully with the D500, but I don't know if it's an economic success. Many here on CR shoot across manufacturers, choosing different makers for their different activities. I wish Canon would have put out a true 7DII replacement. I certainly don't regret buying the 90D but I am one of many who would have paid twice the cost to have its IQ with a top rate AF module rather than the recycled 80D one.


I think the problem is the processor, it just can't keep up once you hit 7-8 frames and it is trying to buffer shots while still tracking. I was not expecting a 1dx II capable camera, but was hoping it would be consistent to spec. Like I said, I really liked the camera and wanted it to perform, but just found it consistently inconsistent when you were trying to track moving subjects. I haven't had the opportunity to test as much with he M6 II, but so far I have not seen this issue. While I don't mind my 70-200 f4 II an issue on the m6II, the 100-400 II starts to get a bit awkward. I am like you and wish they had done a 7dII with the new tech. The only complaint I ever had on the 7d II was IQ at hight ISO. I think APS-C can pretty much match FF up to ISO 3200 or maybe 6400 and would like to have a crop sensor in my bag for a little more "reach". I would be happy using the high MPX and cropping, but it probably won't have a 8-10FPS capability. We will see. BTW - I read several reviews that said AF in high burst was not a problem using the LCD, but I am not going to use the LCD hand held with a heavy 100-400 attached.


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## Dexter75 (Jan 23, 2020)

Im good with my RP, I just want some RF primes I don’t have to mortgage the house to get..


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## Boudreaux&Thibodeaux (Jan 24, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Because they are trying to get some of those 100 million EF users to migrate over. Even on a 24MP sensor, some of them using EF-S lenses would still have more megapixels than their nominal camera - and one could argue that 10MP off a full frame sensor is probably better than what the 18MP asp-c sensors could do anyways.
> 
> Also Canon can think ahead to end of this year, and they know what their lenses will be for the next 3-4 years already.
> 
> ...



Kind of thought those 100 million would be EF-S users, not EF..... the vast masses who are shooting crop bodies with kit lenses... yes those lenses do fit on the adapter, and you get basically... a crop camera with full frame potential. So its perhaps an interesting twist, but I'm not totally sold on the likelihood of that scenario


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## jedy (Jan 24, 2020)

I honestly couldn’t see another high end crop camera. I think fullframe cameras with a crop mode will become the norm. At some point camera companies could (hopefully) even figure out a way to minimise the resolution loss in crop mode with future technology. Imagine a crop mode on a FF sensor that still retains the FF lowlight low noise benefits.


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## Joules (Jan 24, 2020)

jedy said:


> Imagine a crop mode on a FF sensor that still retains the FF lowlight low noise benefits.


A cropped sensor will always perform worse than a larger one. You can't cheat physics.


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## jedy (Jan 24, 2020)

Joules said:


> A cropped sensor will always perform worse than a larger one. You can't cheat physics.


Yeah, I edited my comment after reading that back and realising how ridiculous it sounded. I still think a FF with crop mode will be the way forwards, best of both worlds.


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## SteveC (Jan 24, 2020)

Joules said:


> A cropped sensor will always perform worse than a larger one. You can't cheat physics.



Why would pixels perform worse just because other pixels have been cropped out by a cropped mode?

Or perhaps that's not what you're saying. But jedy was talking about a ff sensor in a crop mode, not about a physicially smaller sensor versus a larger one. When you operate a FF sensor in a cropped mode, the ONLY penalty in performance should be that large parts of the image go away. The pixels that remain shouldn't be any noisier than they were before.

I'd certainly expect an APS-C sensor of (say) 32MP to do worse than a full size sensor of 32MP (all else being the same), but that's not what he was talking about; the appropriate comparison for what jedy was talking about would be an FF 83 MP running in some sort of crop mode and giving 32MP images, versus an APS-C 32MP sensor. Those two should have identical performance, provided the same tech was used to create both sensors.


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## canonnews (Jan 24, 2020)

jedy said:


> Yeah, I edited my comment after reading that back and realising how ridiculous it sounded. I still think a FF with crop mode will be the way forwards, best of both worlds.



The R and RP do that now. attach an EF-S lens, and it auto-crops.


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## jedy (Jan 24, 2020)

canonnews said:


> The R and RP do that now. attach an EF-S lens, and it auto-crops.


Yes but I am predicting a crop mode will eventually replace high end crop cameras like the 7D line. Not just auto cropping for EF-S lenses but letting the user have both selectable options for all lenses (do the R & RP allow this? I don’t know). We’re seeing this already in mirrorless cameras. Also with it being a crop of a FF sensor, maybe future technology can improve the crop performance over what crop sensors currently achieve?


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## AlanF (Jan 24, 2020)

jedy said:


> Yes but I am predicting a crop mode will eventually replace high end crop cameras like the 7D line. Not just auto cropping for EF-S lenses but letting the user have both selectable options for all lenses (do the R & RP allow this? I don’t know). We’re seeing this already in mirrorless cameras. Also with it being a crop of a FF sensor, maybe future technology can improve the crop performance over what crop sensors currently achieve?


If you are using the full area of FF and APS-C crop and viewing the output of both at the same size, the FF at higher isos will always beat out a crop. And current sensors are so good that their efficiencies can't be improved enough for a future APS-C to have lower noise than a current FF. Which is not to say that current APS-Cs are not good, they are darned good and more than capable for most situations.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 24, 2020)

Aaron Lozano said:


> It seems the model is a bit cold



And yet extremely hot at the same time...


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## Michael Clark (Jan 24, 2020)

Don Haines said:


> It all depends on how you look at it.
> Essentialy, the quantum efficiency of all the latest cameras is the same within a few percent. The days of big differences between models and manufacturers is over. Everyone is within a half stop.
> 
> With the same amount of photons hitting the sensor, pixel size becomes very important. The smaller the pixel, the less light hits it, and the lower the DR you get. As an extreme example, look at a 10Mpixel and a 40Mpixel sensor.... The 10M sensor will have 4 times the light hitting each pixel, and as a result will have 2 stops better DR. HOWEVER, you can take the 40M image and resample it to 10M and end up with the same DR.
> ...



You've got it backwards. The reason the 10 MP sensor has better dynamic range is because each photosite (a/k/a sensel or pixel well) with 4X the area also has 4X the full well capacity compared to a 40 MP sensor with photosites 1/4 as large. You can increase exposure so that the same number of photons are hitting a smaller sensel, but you can't increase the full well capacity so that it takes four times as many photons to reach full well capacity.

If areas in the higher resolution sensor with smaller sensels are fully saturated, resampling will not increase the DR.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 24, 2020)

Stuart said:


> The attraction of the 7D series was also the extra shooting range for motorsports, sports, airshows, birders etc. Also the high frame rate for capturing action.
> With some of the RF rumours promising much longer reach lenses, the need for smaller sensors to get the reach goes away if the lenses are not too expensive.
> And keeping the MegaPixels low means todays achievable frame rates can easily rise to capture the action.



But the lenses *are* more expensive at desired angles of view needed for field sports and apertures needed for artificial lighting.

Compare the EF 200mm f/2.8 on an APS-C camera to the EF 300mm f/2.8 on a FF camera: $750 vs. $6100.
Compare the EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II/III to the current Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8 on a FF camera: $2100 vs. $3600.

Or compare the EF 300mm f/2.8 L IS II on an APS-C camera to the 400mm f/2.8 L IS II on a FF camera: $6100vs $10000
And there's no 450/500mm f/2.8 for any price.

The attraction of the APS-C 7D Mark II (or Nikon D500) was you got all of the following: pixel density needed for cropping, high frame rate, and better reach in a highly ruggedized body that wasn't matched by any FF camera other than the 1D series.

7D Mark II + EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II cost (list over the past 3-4 years) $1700 + $2300 = $4000

1D X Mark II + EF 300mm f/2.8 cost (list over the past 3-4 years) $5500 + $6100 = $11600

None of Canon's 5 series bodies to date match the 10 fps of the 7D Mark II.
None of Canon's 5 series bodies to date match the 200,000 shutter rating of the 7D Mark II.
Even with the 30 MP 5D Mark IV, cropping to APS-C size leaves less than 12 MP.

At the time he tore down a 7D Mark II in early 2015, Roger Cicala said the 7D Mark II was the most weather sealed camera he had ever been inside of. The 1D X and 5D Mark III had both been on the market for almost three years at that point, so presumably Uncle Roger had seen their innards by then.

I think the reason both Canon and Nikon abandoned the concept was not because there is not enough market demand for them. It's because they realized how much camera they were selling for one-fourth the price of their FF sports bodies and also how much they assumed they were losing selling 70-200mm f/2.8 lenses instead of 300mm or 400mm f/2.8 lenses. What they fail to account for is that many 7D Mark II/D500 shooters using 70-200mm f/2.8 lenses wouldn't buy FF sports cameras and 300mm f/2.8 or 400mm f/2.8 lenses even if the APS-C option is not available. They either can't afford it, or aren't willing to pay that much for it.


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## Kit. (Jan 24, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> You've got it backwards. The reason the 10 MP sensor has better dynamic range is because each photosite (a/k/a sensel or pixel well) with 4X the area also has 4X the full well capacity compared to a 40 MP sensor with photosites 1/4 as large. You can increase exposure so that the same number of photons are hitting a smaller sensel, but you can't increase the full well capacity so that it takes four times as many photons to reach full well capacity.
> 
> If areas in the higher resolution sensor with smaller sensels are fully saturated, resampling will not increase the DR.


The sum of 4 pixels has about the same effective full well capacity as one pixel 2x2 times bigger.


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## Aaron Lozano (Jan 24, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> And yet extremely hot at the same time...


Never said otherwise but she grew button/dials under her top. I wonder their function, is it a dual AF joystick?


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## Don Haines (Jan 24, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> You've got it backwards. The reason the 10 MP sensor has better dynamic range is because each photosite (a/k/a sensel or pixel well) with 4X the area also has 4X the full well capacity compared to a 40 MP sensor with photosites 1/4 as large. You can increase exposure so that the same number of photons are hitting a smaller sensel, but you can't increase the full well capacity so that it takes four times as many photons to reach full well capacity.
> 
> If areas in the higher resolution sensor with smaller sensels are fully saturated, resampling will not increase the DR.


At any aperture, the density of the light is the same regardless of what camera, sensor, or format is used.
For the same scene, At F4 and 1/1000th second, the same number of photons will hit a square mm on any camera from any manufacture.

large photo sites will capture more photons than a smaller photo site . Smaller ones will have a greater sampling density. You have more total information in the denser sampling


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## Ozarker (Jan 24, 2020)

Don Haines said:


> At any aperture, the density of the light is the same regardless of what camera, sensor, or format is used.
> For the same scene, At F4 and 1/1000th second, the same number of photons will hit a square mm on any camera from any manufacture.
> 
> large photo sites will capture more photons than a smaller photo site . Smaller ones will have a greater sampling density. You have more total information in the denser sampling


Doesn't this also mean that a FF crop as opposed to a crop sensor will have better low light performance? Because of the larger photo sites? Less sampling density, but greater light capturing ability? Of course, less megapixels.


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## Don Haines (Jan 24, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Doesn't this also mean that a FF crop as opposed to a crop sensor will have better low light performance? Because of the larger photo sites? Less sampling density, but greater light capturing ability? Of course, less megapixels.


But on a FF crop, you are only using part of the sensor.

let’s say we have a crop camera and a FF sensor with a crop mode, same tech level for both

case 1, they both have the same total megapixel count, same lens, same camera settings, and lets say 20 megapixels (easy math)

on the two cameras, the same amount of light hits the 20Mpixels of the crop sensor as hits the central 8Mpixels of the FF sensor in crop mode. Each individual pixel in the FF sensor gets 2.5 times as many photons striking it, and it has a stop better DR..... but the crop sensor image can be resampled to get the same image as the FF sensor. The FF image has better pixels, but the crop has more. In this case the crop sensor is superior

case 2, the FF sensor is 50Mpixels and the crop is 20.

in this example, the results should be identical. The pixels are the same size, get hit by the same amount of photons, and all should be indistinguishabl.

case 3, (and the reason FF sensors are better), both cameras are the same pixel count.

you use the FF sensor in FF mode. You use a lens that is 1.6 times as long On the FF body.
the field of view is the same on both, but 2.5 times as many photons hit the FF sensor As the crop sensor. The FF sensor captures more information, the image is better.


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## AlanF (Jan 24, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> You've got it backwards. The reason the 10 MP sensor has better dynamic range is because each photosite (a/k/a sensel or pixel well) with 4X the area also has 4X the full well capacity compared to a 40 MP sensor with photosites 1/4 as large. You can increase exposure so that the same number of photons are hitting a smaller sensel, but you can't increase the full well capacity so that it takes four times as many photons to reach full well capacity.
> 
> If areas in the higher resolution sensor with smaller sensels are fully saturated, resampling will not increase the DR.





Don Haines said:


> At any aperture, the density of the light is the same regardless of what camera, sensor, or format is used.
> For the same scene, At F4 and 1/1000th second, the same number of photons will hit a square mm on any camera from any manufacture.
> 
> large photo sites will capture more photons than a smaller photo site . Smaller ones will have a greater sampling density. You have more total information in the denser sampling


What you say is quite correct. However, misunderstandings occur because dynamic range is measured for a print or a screen output of the sensor image enlarged to a defined size. For example, photonstophotos.net defines PDR as the dynamic range you would expect in an 8x10" print viewed at a distance of about arms length. Now, a 40 Mpx FF and a 10 Mpx FF sensor enlarged that way would indeed as you say have the same DR as argued by Kit as well. But, an APS-C sensor with the same number of photons per unit area from the same f-number and shutter speed needs to be enlarged by 1.6x1.6 times more so the noise is amplified more and the DR decreases accordingly.


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## usern4cr (Jan 24, 2020)

Don Haines said:


> let’s say we have a crop camera and a FF sensor with a crop mode, same tech level for both
> 
> case 1, they both have the same total megapixel count, same lens, same camera settings, and lets say 20 megapixels (easy math)
> 
> ...


case 1: You are correct until the last sentence. If you resample the crop sensor 20MP into 8MP (as you seem to indicate) you will result in an image that is slightly worse than the 8MP from the FF. If, instead, you resample the 8MP from the FF into 20MP then you will result in an image that is slightly worse than the 20MP from the crop sensor.

case 2: you are correct

case 3: If you only use a 1.6x longer lens on the FF then you will *not* get the same blurred image for the out-of-focus foreground & background. To get the same field of view & blurred image everywhere, you must also use a f/# which is 1.6x higher (eg 100mm f4 on crop sensor and 160 f6.4 on the FF). Then the entire FF sensor gets the same image as the entire crop sensor. They also have the same aperture for light gathering and thus both get the *same* total amount of light in their respective full sensors, but that amount of light is spread out thinner on the FF sensor versus the crop sensor. The crop sensor will reach full-well exposure before the FF sensor, which is why the FF sensor has better dynamic range. Furthermore, the FF lens (1.6x in focal length and f#) will be roughly the same size and weight as the crop sensor lens assuming you are shooting wide open on both.

But you have been discussing using a FF camera in "crop mode", which crops your display and the image stored, so the remaining pixels outside the center are lost. If the FF camera takes a full image and does the crop *afterwards*, such as in post, then you have the freedom to crop the smaller image either at the center or off-center to get the detail you happen to want at that time - which is a *huge* benefit when shooting a FF in normal mode and cropping later.

One final comment is that you can't always get the equivalent lens for a cropped camera as you have discussed here. Eg. a FF camera and 50mm f1.2 lense would be equivalent to a crop camera and 31mm f0.75 lense (assuming a 1.6 crop sensor camera). And I don't think you're going to find a 31mm f0.75 lens for it.


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## SteveC (Jan 25, 2020)

AlanF said:


> If you are using the full area of FF and APS-C crop and viewing the output of both at the same size, the FF at higher isos will always beat out a crop. And current sensors are so good that their efficiencies can't be improved enough for a future APS-C to have lower noise than a current FF. Which is not to say that current APS-Cs are not good, they are darned good and more than capable for most situations.



But he was distinctly NOT talking about using the full area of the FF sensor!


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## Aussie shooter (Jan 25, 2020)

MartinF. said:


> I am in a bit of same situation. I have a well functioning but also well used 6D, two top-of-line EF (L) Zooms and a handfull of good EF primes. My photography is a bit of everything - so I am glad for the size of the 6D. However - should i by a new camera now, I would go for the 5D mkIV. It will serve me for the next 5-7+ years, and by that time, the landscape for RF lenses and bodies would be clear and mature. I know that the reselling price for my old EF gear at that time will be lower - but I am not a "buy and sell" person. I buy my gear, an use it as long as i last.
> For travel however - I see and idea for the future of R and RF - a bigger high-end pro body with large zooms and a smaller RP size body that can be used with an RF 24-105 f/4 and a 35mm for travel or street photography.
> 
> But for now, and for the next 10 years i think - I stay with EF cameras and lenses


OR......…...………… You can buy a mirrorless body and continue to use your EF lenses on it(with increased functionality and performance) until you are ready to buy into the RF lens lineup. Canon has given you (as they once said) a very elegant solution as far as transitioning goes.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 25, 2020)

Kit. said:


> The sum of 4 pixels has about the same effective full well capacity as one pixel 2x2 times bigger.



Yep. But all four smaller sensels do not necessarily all receive the same number of photons. Poisson distribution and all, not to mention edges between objects in the scene with different brightnesses.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 25, 2020)

Don Haines said:


> At any aperture, the density of the light is the same regardless of what camera, sensor, or format is used.
> For the same scene, At F4 and 1/1000th second, the same number of photons will hit a square mm on any camera from any manufacture.
> 
> large photo sites will capture more photons than a smaller photo site . Smaller ones will have a greater sampling density. You have more total information in the denser sampling



You also have greater randomness due to Poisson distribution.


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## Kit. (Jan 25, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Yep. But all four smaller sensels do not necessarily all receive the same number of photons. Poisson distribution and all, not to mention edges between objects in the scene with different brightnesses.


Doesn't that produce a "good" kind of nonlinearity, though? Looks like it should very slightly increase detail in highlights.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 25, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Doesn't that produce a "good" kind of nonlinearity, though? Looks like it should very slightly increase detail in highlights.



Randomness due to Poisson distribution is noise, not details.


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## Kit. (Jan 25, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Randomness due to Poisson distribution is noise, not details.


Have you ever heard of dithering?


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## AlanF (Jan 25, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Yep. But all four smaller sensels do not necessarily all receive the same number of photons. Poisson distribution and all, not to mention edges between objects in the scene with different brightnesses.


You are both right. Leaving aside edge effects, the sum total of photons hitting 4 1/4-sized pixels (sensels) will have the same Poisson distribution as 1 full-sized pixel but the smaller pixels will lead to more noticeable granular noise. It's a trade-off between detail and noise. But, it's easier to extract detail from a noisy background than it is from one where the detail has been smoothed.

It leads us on to what is the optimal size of pixels for the current sensors. I slightly prefer the heavily cropped files I get from my 50 Mpx 5DSR (20 Mpx APS-C equivalent) to those from my 32 MPx 90D, although when not heavily cropped both are pretty indistinguishable.


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## AlanF (Jan 25, 2020)

SteveC said:


> But he was distinctly NOT talking about using the full area of the FF sensor!



I was replying to the last part of his post to point out that future crop sensors, or cropped areas from a FF, don't have much room for improvement over current ones.


jedy said:


> .... maybe future technology can improve the crop performance over what crop sensors currently achieve?


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## SteveC (Jan 25, 2020)

AlanF said:


> I was replying to the last part of his post to point out that future crop sensors, or cropped areas from a FF, don't have much room for improvement over current ones.



Ah. Got you, and yes, that's certainly true.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 26, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Have you ever heard of dithering?



Yes, but dithering only works well when none of the sensels/photosites combined into one pixel are at full well capacity/fully saturated...


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## Michael Clark (Jan 26, 2020)

AlanF said:


> You are both right. Leaving aside edge effects, the sum total of photons hitting 4 1/4-sized pixels (sensels) will have the same Poisson distribution as 1 full-sized pixel but the smaller pixels will lead to more noticeable granular noise. It's a trade-off between detail and noise. But, it's easier to extract detail from a noisy background than it is from one where the detail has been smoothed.
> 
> It leads us on to what is the optimal size of pixels for the current sensors. I slightly prefer the heavily cropped files I get from my 50 Mpx 5DSR (20 Mpx APS-C equivalent) to those from my 32 MPx 90D, although when not heavily cropped both are pretty indistinguishable.



Assuming none of the smaller sensels are at full well capacity, it will. But if some but not all of the smaller photosites are at FWC, then the end result will be different than if the same number of photons had struck a larger photosite that did not reach FWC. In the former case, some information (photons that struck the sensels already at FWC) is lost. In the later case every photon is counted, though at lower resolution.


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## AlanF (Jan 26, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Assuming none of the smaller sensels are at full well capacity, it will. But if some but not all of the smaller photosites are at FWC, then the end result will be different than if the same number of photons had struck a larger photosite that did not reach FWC. In the former case, some information (photons that struck the sensels already at FWC) is lost. In the later case every photon is counted, though at lower resolution.


From your previous posts, I know you what you are assuming so let me spell it out for everyone who hasn't been following, using as an example again two sensors, one of which has sensels (pixels) that are 1/4 the size of the other (say an 80 vs a 20 Mpx sensor). The full well potential of the large sensel is 4x larger than of the smaller sensel but there are 4 small ones occupying the same area as 1 large one so 4 small have effectively the same full well potential as 1 large sensel. Michael is implicitly and correctly assuming that the statistical noise in each small sensel (Poisson distribution) is greater than that for the large sensel because they receive on average only a 1/4 of the number of photons. Accordingly, there is a probability that some of the small sensels are saturated where others are not, and this will be more frequent than for the large sensel. Whereas this is perfectly correct, the probability of random saturation happening at low levels of light is very low. The probability of some being saturated and some not will have to be at high levels of light where they are all closer to being saturated. But, at high levels of light, fluctuations are statistically lower. So, in practice, it's not going to be very significant.


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## Kit. (Jan 26, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Yes, but dithering only works well when none of the sensels/photosites combined into one pixel are at full well capacity/fully saturated...


When your luminous exposure is just slightly above the saturation level, it is quite possible that your full pixel will be saturated, but one of your quarter-pixels won't. Averaging over quarter-pixels in this case seems to give a slightly higher DR at the expense of linearity near the saturation values.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jan 26, 2020)

AlanF said:


> It has the same DR and low light performance as the 80D
> 
> 
> Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting
> ...


Ok, I found out why I thought 90D had a better DR than 80D






Canon 90D Dynamic Range is Slightly Better than Canon 80D « NEW CAMERA


Initial DR (Dynamic Range) test coming out from Canon 90D sample images shows that the Dynamic range is slightly improved compared to Canon 80D camera.




thenewcamera.com





Not sure if it still holds or photonstophotos measurements are more accurate.


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## AlanF (Jan 26, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Ok, I found out why I thought 90D had a better DR than 80D
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was an initial estimate that caused a stir but the measurements were wrong. There was some discussion on the net until the photonstophotos was posted.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jan 27, 2020)

AlanF said:


> That was an initial estimate that caused a stir but the measurements were wrong. There was some discussion on the net until the photonstophotos was posted.


 Yep. Now it downgrades my expectations on the prospective high-res R. It'll probably be lagging about a stop behind the Sony. Best case half a stop, if we check 90D against cropped A7RIV.


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## AlanF (Jan 27, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Yep. Now it downgrades my expectations on the prospective high-res R. It'll probably be lagging about a stop behind the Sony. Best case half a stop, if we check 90D against cropped A7RIV.


The DR of the 90D is pretty much the same as the cropped A7RIV over the whole range apart from a couple of points around iso100, which may be or not be real.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jan 27, 2020)

AlanF said:


> The DR of the 90D is pretty much the same as the cropped A7RIV over the whole range apart from a couple of points around iso100, which may be or not be real.



But ISO 100 is crucial, this is where we shoot landscapes...
I'd be ok with 70-80Mp though and keeping the same DR as 5DIV. Time will tell.


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## AlanF (Jan 27, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> But ISO 100 is crucial, this is where we shoot landscapes...
> I'd be ok with 70-80Mp though and keeping the same DR as 5DIV. Time will tell.


Not crucial for me! I live in the iso600+ world. I would find 70-80 Mpx too large to handle as my standard format and would want a genuine RAW (or CRAW) crop mode for general usage and occasional use of FF for my type of nature photography. We all want something different and so have to live and let live.


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## mppix (Jan 27, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I think you're going to see the RF line revert to what it was with film, sans the IX bastard child.
> 
> If canon can do a sub $800 full frame camera, they'll do the entire line with full frame. and why not?
> 
> Canon has a HUGE advantage over the other companies, they can manufacturer in Japan - and it's almost entirely all automated. Especially for something like a mirrorless camera.



Maybe - IC/sensor cost came down considerably due to waver size. However, the real cost difference of APS-C vs. full frame is lens cost (see Fuji). We will have to see if canon considers APS-C lenses worth making.

PS. Just my 2 cents. I haven't shot an APS-C camera in years and if it were up to me, I'd rather have a high spec'd FF body.


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## tron (Jan 27, 2020)

mppix said:


> Maybe - IC/sensor cost came down considerably due to waver size. However, the real cost difference of APS-C vs. full frame is lens cost (see Fuji). We will have to see if canon considers APS-C lenses worth making.
> 
> PS. Just my 2 cents. I haven't shot an APS-C camera in years and if it were up to me, I'd rather have a high spec'd FF body.


Even for birding having a FF camera helps with BIF photography (1.6*1.6 = 2.56 times the area).


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## stevelee (Jan 28, 2020)

slclick said:


> Well, I can make a good (not great) photo with a cardboard box, gaffers tape, tin foil, a tiny hole and some Ilford paper.On top of it it's a whole lot more enjoyable than clicking on a button full of electronics and a keyboard. Now, do I do it very often? No. I like to spread the love around though. Like Canon offering different bodies for different strokes.


When I was a kid, I made pictures with a Kodak Brownie and made contact prints. The prints were small, but the tones were gorgeous, better than I ever could get with enlarger paper.


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