# Banning ankorwatt



## Pi (Sep 4, 2013)

I was quite puzzled to read that *ankorwatt* was banned for life for "bringing out the worst in everyone here". He was not banned because he was "bad", he was banned because he made everyone else behave badly. Why wasn't everyone else banned then?

He is/was one of the least emotional people here. He was called an old fool, somebody asked for a psychiatrist, and then he was punished for that. He did make the "I will strip you naked" comment, which, of course, was not a physical threat (even though some pretended not to understand it) but he was not banned for that. He was banned because a few other treated him badly, so he must have done something to deserve it. Like insisting on ... whatever, technical. 

I find this disturbing. You can see a lot of childish behavior here, some rudeness, too. I have not even seen a warning - but ankorwatt - he must go.


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## magic koala (Sep 4, 2013)

I mostly read the updates on the latest cameras, lenses and firmware but I've often wondered if people find another person annoying then why respond to them in the first place? The back and forth attacks between ankorwatt and others seemed to go on forever, why not just ignore the other poster and move on? Clearly it is obvious that people are expecting reactions so they wait and wait until they receive a response thus thinking they are validated. It is all pretty immature, really.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 4, 2013)

Pi, I think you're a relatively recent member here (earlier this year, I believe?). If so, you may not be aware of ankorwatt's original user name, Mikael Risedal, and you won't find any of his posts under that name, because he was previously banned and had his account deleted, along with all his posts. It seems the mods allowed him to return/remain some time later (it became evident that ankorwatt was just a new account for Mikael; although at first he referred to himself in the third person, the posting style was so obviously him, and at some point he started openly acknowledging his identity, IIRC not long after he started reposting the same examples of a QPcard sitting next to a shed that he'd posted with the Mikael account).


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## bvukich (Sep 4, 2013)

Trust me, it was his behavior alone (the worst of which has been removed and/or edited by mods as it happened) that got him banned. He has been warned too many times to count, had temporary bans several times, and had his previous account permanently banned. We gave him more chances than most users would get because we hoped he could tone it down and become a good member of this community.

Anything mentioning the behavior of others was purely editorializing by myself.

He is a professional photographer with many years of experience, and we paid undue respect to the knowledge that we hoped he could bring to this forum, but at the end of the day the endless bickering and fighting just wasn't worth it. I know for a fact we've lost other forum members because of his bad behavior, and dozens of others complain constantly about him. But that's not to say he was "voted off the island"... The mods have had discussions going back to at least February about what to do with him, and this wasn't an easy decision to make.


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## bvukich (Sep 4, 2013)

magic koala said:


> I mostly read the updates on the latest cameras, lenses and firmware but I've often wondered if people find another person annoying then why respond to them in the first place? The back and forth attacks between ankorwatt and others seemed to go on forever, why not just ignore the other poster and move on? Clearly it is obvious that people are expecting reactions so they wait and wait until they receive a response thus thinking they are validated. It is all pretty immature, really.



I agree completely. You feed a troll and it only becomes more persistent. That is why I mentioned the behavior of other members; they also crossed the line, but I'm hoping by removing the prime instigator, that all the users that are normally good members of this community will return to "normal" and no further warnings or bans will need to be issued.


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## Apop (Sep 4, 2013)

Well I didn't read any of his foul language or heavy insults.

I am not sure if this is good thing or not, I think i said earlier the best thing to do is just ignore those kind of people , they won't get their fun if no one responds...

The forum ''community'' should be able to take of such a problem themselves by simply ignoring , there wouldn't be any need for admins to ban him.

If ankorwatt has a cellphone , or dynamic IP adres he will be back within a few hours anyway. 
It is quite hard to ban people ( especially since ankorwatt is a self-claimed genious)

I would vote on some how to avoid-and-ignore troll(s) lessons!


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## eml58 (Sep 4, 2013)

Apop said:


> I am not sure if this is good thing or not, I think i said earlier the best thing to do is just ignore those kind of people , they won't get their fun if no one responds...
> 
> The forum ''community'' should be able to take of such a problem themselves by simply ignoring , there wouldn't be any need for admins to ban him.



There is a currently running Post re "Canon Sensors" that is both informative and interesting, the fact that it is currently at Page 2 and moving forward in a Positive & Informative manner is due entirely to the fact that this particular chap has been removed from CR.

I applaud the decision, unfortunately your likely right, just like the Terminator I'm sure he's sitting in a dark room under a Bridge somewhere, saying "I'll be Baaaack".


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## alexanderferdinand (Sep 4, 2013)

This thread reminds me on the phrase on a movie: we are talking about the people, we are not talking about.
I noticed sometimes his "comments", he is banned and has now his own thread.
Cool!


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## rpt (Sep 4, 2013)

eml58 said:


> There is a currently running Post re "Canon Sensors" that is both informative and interesting, the fact that it is currently at Page 2 and moving forward in a Positive & Informative manner is due entirely to the fact that this particular chap has been removed from CR.


I wondered about that. Now it makes sense why the thread is still alive and informative.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 4, 2013)

I'll miss him...  I had fun eating popcorn while watching him and others talk with the "less" important parts of photography (technical) while not posting something that will really help others in the forum. Well, I guess that's the primary mission of canonrumors?  RIP Ankorwatt, Mikael. I'm hoping that instead of a lot of gear talk, members will talk of helping each other on how to take better pictures using of course our beloved camera gears be it old or new. I find reading Dustin's posts and by some new posters (yeah, they're more inclined to show good pictures than some so-called old timers here) a lot more entertaining than pure tech talk.


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## pwp (Sep 4, 2013)

bvukich said:


> You feed a troll and it only becomes more persistent...


That's it in a nutshell; never ever feed a troll.
I doubt I've read, let alone responded to an ankorwatt post in a long, long time. 

Nice work mods.

-PW


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## Sporgon (Sep 4, 2013)

I suspect that latteraly there were posts that the mods had intercepted and we didn't see, but caused the abrupt fall of the axe

Ultimately I think the mods did Mikael a favour as much as anyone else. A building level of 'forum fever' or 'forum fury' can't be good for body, mind or soul.


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## docsmith (Sep 4, 2013)

I wouldn't call Ankorwatt a troll. He was more of a zeolot.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 4, 2013)

Tried searching in google his name Mikael Risedal and I've found the same type of posts from him. Funny that the arguments are the same here in CR.


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## Don Haines (Sep 4, 2013)

Unfortunatly, many of us have problems dealing with difficult people.

The person in question has some very strong beliefs and will take whatever measures are necessary to defend them. The fact that those beliefs are rooted in truth makes it difficult to shake them. The problem comes from him seeing those beliefs as the most important thing in the world, and others seing those beliefs as one factor out of many.

You can argue all you want with him, you can use all the math, science, and logic you want, but in the end you will not change those beliefs. This is an argument that can not be won as both sides know that they are right and therefore can not compromise... in the meantime bad feelings and acrimony build up.

In the future, if you run into someone like that (and there will be more) just let it drop... don't waste your time, those who agree will agree, those who disagree will disagree, and tens of thousands of posts will just dig the trenches deeper.

And to the moderators: 
Sometimes, for the good of the tree, you have to prune off a limb. You can't let things descend into chaos. Many years ago, in the time of text message boards, there was a group called rec.boats.paddle. There was one particular member, who claimed to be the inventor of a safety device, (it was in common use before he was born), who was convinced that there was a government conspiracy to prevent sales of his device and how this conspiracy was killing thousands of childern through unnecessary drownings... every thread on every topic was hijacked by the diatribe and it ended up destroying the group. CanonRumors can follow the same trajectory without moderation.... Thank you for finally stepping in.


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## RLPhoto (Sep 4, 2013)

Lol. He even gets his own thread and that says a lot about mikael.


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## Badger (Sep 4, 2013)

Strictly out of curiosity, how old is everyone here? 
I was reading a thread the other day that had me convinced there are some teenagers posting.


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## AlanF (Sep 4, 2013)

Come on, the guy wasn't claiming conspiracies, he isn't Bashar al-Assad, and he was reacting to being provoked. He didn't bring up the HTP controversy - it was brought up by someone else as part of a general deriding of his views. Unfortunately, his English is rather poor and he has difficulty expressing himself, which makes it worse. We all know that DR gets him going, and the way to deal with it is just to ignore him, and not ban him. I must admit I felt sorry for him the way he was being baited. Perhaps the mods removed some of his outbursts and he does have a history of being problematic, but from the ones that were posted in that thread he appeared to have been more self-restrained than his attackers.


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## AprilForever (Sep 4, 2013)

I wonder how Ankorwatt feels about this thread... Anyway, I am sure this is not the appropriate way to deal with someone whose actions you may not like. PM's, PM's to mods, but this? It's pretty ridiculous. It's ok for exchanges to get a little heated at times, it's human nature. Judging him in place of the moderators though is not respectul to him or them.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 4, 2013)

Apop said:


> The forum ''community'' should be able to take of such a problem themselves by simply ignoring , there wouldn't be any need for admins to ban him.



I completely agree, though I'd like to make public that _after_ ankorwatt himself(!) called upon the mods recently to straighten out other people I complained about him as being provocative and commented that I wouldn't mind a CR w/o him - even after ignoring his double-spaced bold/italic double, triple and quadruple posts all recent threads about sensors degraded into personal in-fighting that simply wasn't there before his (re)appearance.


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## Hobby Shooter (Sep 4, 2013)

I've been away for a while due to moving continents and haven't followed much of the action here lately. It's sad that it has to come to this for any member. I've had some contact with Mikael outside of the forum (both of us being Swedish) and he is gentle person, but very focused and passionate. I hope it's a lesson to all of us to try to stick to the subject and be as polite as we can.

J


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## dlleno (Sep 4, 2013)

This is all very interesting. I stop paying attention for a day or two and come back to see a real sensor conversation happening. I thought we could just ignore the ad hominum to increase the signal to noise, but it looks like the mods did what they had to do. And Btw I suspect that actively banning someone takes ongoing time and effort which I'm sure the mods would rather not spend. Mikael has a lot of knowledge and experience but unfortunately the right dose of wisdom wasn't there or he could have been an asset to cr.


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## fugu82 (Sep 4, 2013)

I started following canonrumors last March when I purchased my 5D3. The forum is a jewel; enormously helpful, thought-provoking, and entertaining. 
The one dark spot has been when a useful, informative discussion here is hijacked by egomaniac trolls like Me-Me-Me-I-Am-The-Sole-Fount-Of-Experience-And-Wisdom-Mikael. People like him are an incurable poison in forums, and I applaud the moderators in banning his worthless a$$.


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## David Hull (Sep 4, 2013)

verysimplejason said:


> Tried searching in google his name Mikael Risedal and I've found the same type of posts from him. Funny that the arguments are the same here in CR.


If you miss him here, he is still on DP Review, you can visit him over there.


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## RAKAMRAK (Sep 4, 2013)

Just to satiate my curiosity, sometimes I have seen reference to some "the temple guy" in certain other topics in the forum here. Is this "the temple guy" and the erstwhile use ankorwatt one and the same?


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## dlleno (Sep 4, 2013)

once HTP came up it was inevitable


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## Chuck Alaimo (Sep 4, 2013)

Oh my, such a shame, now I may just have to shoot with my canons and be happy about because who will beat the dead horse of DR for us now???? Joking


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## ajfotofilmagem (Sep 4, 2013)

We should all learn from the mistakes of others. Please do not hijack the topic ... :-\ Please do not quote the quote, do not quote the quote, do not quote the quote. :-X Please do not respond other users intransigent and owners of absolute truth. :'( Let them speak alone, and have more constructive discussions. If anyone miss the banned users, are free to seek them on other sites. : After all, the internet is full of statements authoritarian and anachronistic.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 4, 2013)

RAKAMRAK said:


> Just to satiate my curiosity, sometimes I have seen reference to some "the temple guy" in certain other topics in the forum here. Is this "the temple guy" and the erstwhile use ankorwatt one and the same?



Yes.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 4, 2013)

I'm not very comfortable with a member bashing topic, Bans should be private and piling on is unfair because the banned member can't defend himself.

I'm not going to comment pro or con about the member in a public forum.


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## kennykodak (Sep 4, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I'm not going to comment pro or con about the member in a public forum.



agreed, the topic stay fixed on the love of imaging and the shared enthusiasm for Canon products. as for the mods here, i think that they made the hard decision for the best of the community to stay on task. overall, a bad situation that i have seen in other forums on various topics handled with careful thought and protocol here.


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## unfocused (Sep 4, 2013)

Hobby Shooter said:


> I've been away for a while due to moving continents and haven't followed much of the action here lately. It's sad that it has to come to this for any member. I've had some contact with Mikael outside of the forum (both of us being Swedish) and he is gentle person, but very focused and passionate. I hope it's a lesson to all of us to try to stick to the subject and be as polite as we can.
> 
> J



This is interesting and significant. One of the problems with internet forums is that it is too easy to attack someone without knowing anything about them and without having to face the person.

I was frustrated by the pointless and redundant arguing that characterized at least one thread recently. But, it does take at least two people to argue. I do feel some sense of injustice because it was quite clear that some individuals took great delight in baiting him and it appears they are walking away with no consequences to their actions. I never liked bullies in school and I don't like them on the internet. 

My fear is that these same individuals will simply move on to another victim who feels passionately about an issue. Obviously, I don't know if the moderators issued any warnings to those who taunted him, but I suspect that since at least one would be classified as a "teacher's pet" I doubt if he will receive even a slap on the hand.


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## comsense (Sep 4, 2013)

I am for freedom of expression (of course, bullying and abuse should not be tolerated). I avoid reading most rabid and useless posts so can't say if this person did that. If this person is banned just for being persistent opinionated PITA$$, then ignoring his posts is a better solution. You can't clap with one hand. So someone else also has to be responsible here. Also, I don't think usefulness should be criterion for being on forums. This is not some kind of classroom where every discussion have to be useful. Regardless, most discussions on all forums have always been pointless or tend to become pointless. And I don't see anything wrong with that. Its fun to watch posts like 'I bought camera XXX and its much better than 1DX' or 'my camera sucks, why cant it have all the features of 1DX at $700 price tag'. 
Once in a while I do get useful information and tips for good deals. That's pretty much what blogging is about everywhere. I have people reply to me in an insulting way here, I just don't reply back. If I see a thread is pointless and is not even fun, I don't even read it. 


A practical suggestion to moderators to avoid trolls taking over: Make a separate category for opinions out of gear talk and keep it at the bottom of page. Keep and enforce the gear talk specifically for advice/discussion on practical and useable functions of gear (like menu, buttons, uses, tips, tricks etc). Move all the abstract and hypothetical B%&%@*% aka opinions ('like zooms are better than prime' or vice-verse, 'EOS M is the best camera ever', 'why is 35/50 mm a standard FL, why not 30/40' etc.) to 'gear opinion' category and don't show opinion category posts on forum discussion list on home page. This could be the best of both...... 

This is just my opinion. 
In the end, the people running the show/forum have (should have) right to decide what kind of platform they want to provide. If you don,t like it........


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## dlleno (Sep 4, 2013)

comsense said:


> In the end, the people running the show/forum have (should have) right to decide what kind of platform they want to provide. If you don,t like it........



well thats really it. Craig is running a business, not a social justice advocacy program. This means success is measured, among other things, by the revenue stream generated by such things as google adsense for example. It means Craig sets the rules and operates the site in a way that meets his business/personal/whatever goals. canonrumors.com has a marketable product -- exposure to an audience of photographers who buy stuff. Advertizers pay money for exposure on the site because its their business to expose their products to an audience they believe is attractive. Advertizers won't pay money for exposure on a site that doesn't have an attractive potential customer base. If craig does not manage the forum in a way that provides that attractive audience for his advertizers, he looses money.

based on the ads that I see, the way they are presented, and from what little I know of google adsense and the various resources out there that analize site traffic and estimate worth, I'd say Craig you must have a attractive revenue stream that has taken you 6 years or so to develop. good for you and hurray for capitalism. 

Managing the forum is simply carying out the interests of the site, a task which I imagine is not always peaches and cream.


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## bvukich (Sep 5, 2013)

dlleno said:


> comsense said:
> 
> 
> > In the end, the people running the show/forum have (should have) right to decide what kind of platform they want to provide. If you don,t like it........
> ...



Actually, it's simpler than that all around. This site was never started as a revenue stream, and I believe self supporting (financially) is the only goal of that sort. This site exists because of a personal interest of Craig's, and the desire to provide a community for people that share that interest.

And you're over-thinking the culling of undesirables to cultivate a desirable marketing base. No profanity, no personal attacks (and obviously no spam). That's really where it begins and ends. Everyone that can play by those very simple rules is welcome and wanted. All skill levels, all experience levels, etc.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 5, 2013)

David Hull said:


> verysimplejason said:
> 
> 
> > Tried searching in google his name Mikael Risedal and I've found the same type of posts from him. Funny that the arguments are the same here in CR.
> ...


Ever heard of sarcasm?


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## Harry Muff (Sep 5, 2013)

The job of a troll is to wind people up and not necessarily make rude comments themselves, but to provoke them.


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## Pi (Sep 5, 2013)

Harry Muff said:


> The job of a troll is to wind people up and not necessarily make rude comments themselves, but to provoke them.



That is exactly what happened to him - he was provoked.


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## risc32 (Sep 5, 2013)

so you're saying ankorwatt is/was openly "mickael", and now he's gone?


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## eml58 (Sep 5, 2013)

risc32 said:


> so you're saying ankorwatt is/was openly "mickael", and now he's gone?



No/Yes/Sort of.

He was originally openly "Michael", but was banned.

In a second coming he became "Ankor Wat", which was clandestinely, "Michael", in disguise, but later became more openly "Michael", but was banned.

And now he's gone.


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## Sporgon (Sep 5, 2013)

Pi said:


> Harry Muff said:
> 
> 
> > The job of a troll is to wind people up and not necessarily make rude comments themselves, but to provoke them.
> ...



That is far, far from the truth. 

I followed CR for a number of years before joining. One of the main reasons that I joined was because of the high standard and competence in the discussions, technical knowledge and images posted. 

Within minutes of me posting my first post, a comment on the image quality of the then new 5D Mkiii compared with the D800 I got a violent, almost hysterical reply from a member calling himself Mikael Risdal. Subsiquently any posts I have made vaighly to do with Canon 'IQ' have been attacked in this way. 

To 'provoke' this guy you just had to post anything positive about Canon.


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## J.R. (Sep 5, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> Pi said:
> 
> 
> > Harry Muff said:
> ...



+1 ... too many of his first replies to posters were on the lines of - *YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW SENSORS WORK*, *YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT A TONE CURVE*. It's OK for someone to have a different opinion, but it is totally another matter if you try to ram it down someone throat. 

Just look at this thread on sensors started by unfocused ... http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=16773.0 ... it remained sane throughout without anyone throwing their toys out of the pram! I don't remember a single recent thread on Canon sensors that has not denigrated into mindless drivel and *YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW SENSORS WORK* BS.


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## Pi (Sep 5, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> Pi said:
> 
> 
> > Harry Muff said:
> ...



You did not explain why it was "far, far from the truth"; in fact, you did not say anything about the thread in question. 

The HTP stuff was brought up by somebody else with the only purpose to provoke him. Apparently, that was some old thread before I joined, beaten to death as usual. It was mentioned just to tell him how stubborn and incompetent he was. It was a personal attack, to which he responded.


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## dlleno (Sep 5, 2013)

on a lighter note.... before we stir up too much additional dust ...


> Actually, it's simpler than that all around. This site was never started as a revenue stream, and I believe self supporting (financially) is the only goal of that sort. This site exists because of a personal interest of Craig's, and the desire to provide a community for people that share that interest.
> 
> And you're over-thinking the culling of undesirables to cultivate a desirable marketing base. No profanity, no personal attacks (and obviously no spam). That's really where it begins and ends. Everyone that can play by those very simple rules is welcome and wanted. All skill levels, all experience levels, etc.



fantastic! thanks for sharing this; and now I enjoy CR even more.


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## fugu82 (Sep 5, 2013)

The issue with Trolls, in general, is that they have no real interest in sharing their [sometimes considerable] expertise, or in helping others with technical issues, or even in enjoying someone's witty comment. They are all about seizing any opportunity to aggressively demand personal attention and acknowledgement, regardless of the OP's questions or concerns.
I have seen so many members graciously take time to answer queries, and encourage others, and that is what makes this forum a treasure worth protecting.


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## CR00 (Sep 5, 2013)

Good news I guess and I hope more to come.


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## Northstar (Sep 6, 2013)

In his last few posts he wrote "f u" twice towards another member...ok, I've dropped the f bomb a thousand times in my lfe, but never towards somebody in a civil and professional discussion....he did it twice in a couple days in writing, where he had time to reflect, and even delete/modify if needed....i read through several pages of ankorwatt posts....he was so negative and condescending.

The mods made a good decision in this case.


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## rpt (Sep 6, 2013)

People, let us drop it. No point going over it again and agonising. Those of us who have lived through his two avatars here on CR will have our views. Let us get back to photography and nerdiness and courtesy and above all the great sense of humour and friendship that is here at CR.


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## serendipidy (Sep 6, 2013)

rpt said:


> People, let us drop it. No point going over it again and agonising. Those of us who have lived through his two avatars here on CR will have our views. Let us get back to photography and nerdiness and courtesy and above all the great sense of humour and friendship that is here at CR.



Well said.

"Keep calm and CANON on" ;D


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## AlanF (Sep 6, 2013)

serendipidy said:


> rpt said:
> 
> 
> > People, let us drop it. No point going over it again and agonising. Those of us who have lived through his two avatars here on CR will have our views. Let us get back to photography and nerdiness and courtesy and above all the great sense of humour and friendship that is here at CR.
> ...



+1

Also, this whole thread should deleted as it contains critical remarks about a named individual, and few come out of it with honour. T


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## pwp (Sep 6, 2013)

Mods...time to close this one? 

-PW


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## sandymandy (Sep 6, 2013)

Didnt read many of his posts but the ones i read were quite provoking and just looking for trouble. So imho a ban is justified. Sure we could all just say "oh whatever" and ignore his provocations but thats not what a forum is about


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