# "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons



## ScottyP (Jul 25, 2012)

Rather scathing article in Barron's financial about Canon.

http://online.barrons.com/article/SB50001424053111904184504577518750120947294.html?ru=&mod=barrons_msnhttp://online.barrons.com/article/SB50001424053111904184504577518750120947294.html?


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## awinphoto (Jul 25, 2012)

ScottyP said:


> Rather scathing article in Barron's financial about Canon.
> 
> http://online.barrons.com/article/SB50001424053111904184504577518750120947294.html?ru=&mod=barrons_msnhttp://online.barrons.com/article/SB50001424053111904184504577518750120947294.html?



So they are upset that the president of the company in 1996-2006, (when canon ruled the digital world and was on top of the game), is now back in control? He helped canon get out of the struggling Film SLR market where they were seen as second violin to Nikon, and kicked Nikons butt in every category in digital photography for a solid decade... Of course, 2007 to present is when most view canon's fall to nikon... So perhaps it's not a bad move... of course everyone would love to see new blood and ideas and innovation, but if he gets canon back on track, who's to argue?


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## distant.star (Jul 25, 2012)

.
I'd hardly call that "scathing."

It's critical of a company that has a 76-year-old man running the show.

Canon faces a lot of tough challenges, no secret there. I don't see them being in any kind of trouble.


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## risc32 (Jul 25, 2012)

I didn't bother to read it, but if the guy who manned the ship from 96-02 is back, nikon headquarters at large probably soiled themselves at that news. As Awinphoto said and unless you where around back then you just might not fully understand how much Canon OWNED nikon, and the rest of the field really. Nikons offerings were very far behind the curve for a long time. I know it's larger than one man, and for all I know this guy wasn't the driving force behind Canon's innovations, but maybe...


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## Martin (Jul 25, 2012)

Great, maybe we will have an opportunity to experience some really new cameras and sensors in future. Old guy, old stuff, no real develop and research. Hope a new president will look a bit around and see what competition brings to the market. Canon definetely need some fresh ideas or just new sensors built with up to date technology. On the other hand, is there better manufacturer than sony in terms of sensors? There is a need for a new technology process for canon, otherwise in next two cameras generation the wiill loose a lot of market share. It could be be a shame with such a good optics. Keep my fingers crossed for changes. Hope the new guy will lead the company to the top.


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## DJL329 (Jul 26, 2012)

Also note that News Corp acquired Barrons when they purchased Dow Jones a few years back, so take it with a grain of salt. Or two.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 26, 2012)

What I read is just as I imagined it. A totally inside board of directors each congratualating and re-electing themselves and totally oblivious to the world around them and its changes.
They badly need some outside directors to push for change. The continued lack of agressively priced and specified new products is going to put them in a hole that becomes increasingly difficult to pull out of.
Being on top today does not guarantee being on top tomorrow, particularly when other companies are catching up and even passing you. One day soon, they will be wondering what hit them.


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## canon816 (Jul 26, 2012)

Wow... A bunch of whining here. Canon produces camera after camera that continues to push ISO quality and resolution at the same time while packing them with mind blowing features like 6, 10, 14FPS!!! Do you pixel peepers even use your cameras anymore?

Reality check... All camera manufacturers are producing products and technology that consistently beats the generation before. P&S cameras can take awesome quality photos and entry level dSLR cameras blow what was once considered professional grade out of the water. 

It really wasn't that long ago that digital, autofocus, image stabilization, solid state, processors etc... didn't even exist.

Maybe I'm the only one that is amazed every time I go out and shoot. Amazed at how fast my camera locks on to a moving target, amazed at how clean images look at ISO 1600, 3200 and 6400, amazed at how large I can print and the color and detail contained.

And... amazed at how much fun I get out of photography. I hope Canon, Nikon, et Al continue to innovate over the next 20 years at least as fast as they have been innovating over the last 20 years....


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## kdsand (Jul 26, 2012)

Well I guess I'm very young compared to him  . 

I would think at this management level its not about being teck savvy but it is about being a great leader. Knowing who to trust and knowing who to push, how hard & far.
Besides the games still the same
I know some people in their 70s that are quit sharp so power to him.


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## Wilmark (Jul 26, 2012)

To bring Canon back to the top this is what they have to do in the next couple of years.

Place less reliance on point and shoot (phones will dominate that space.
Less reliance on Japanese Manufacturing and labour costs.


Develop new sensor technologies very aggressively or outsource them - this is big for their DLSR line that is running out of steam.


Improve customer satisfaction - especially the professional space, alot of people have been pissed off at them in the past year. They need to fix this.


Develop alternate products. Maybe think about a couple of hybrid products. Maybe even develop technologies that could be sold in other branded phones. Cameras in phones suck big time.


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## LostArk (Jul 26, 2012)

Things Nikon has going for it IMHO:

- Illuminated AF-C point :-X
- Spot metering from any AF point
- 3D AF tracking
- Optional round eyecups
- 14-24mm f/2.8
- 28mm f/1.8 
- D800 (for now)

Things Canon has going for it:

- 17mm TSE
- 70-200's 
- Super Tele's
- ??

Nikon beating Canon, Canon beating Nikon... It's all just part of the natural ebb and flow of the universe. I shoot Canon because when I went to buy a camera the equivalent Nikon was out of stock. Plus I find spinning the wheel on the back in circles to be therapeutic. If they ever got rid of the spinny wheel I might have an existential crisis.


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## dafrank (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm not a chairman of the board of a major Japanese corporation, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. That qualifies me as much as anyone else here to comment on this stuff.

There's probably a little "ageism" going on here in some quarters. The Japanese wisely respect the wisdom that only comes with age to those who are open to learning from their experience. This gentleman certainly is not a fool, judging from his past performance. I see nothing wrong with him taking control right now. Perhaps if he were 86, not 76, there would be a real question of his physical capabilities; if he is healthy, he will most likely do very well for Canon for some years to come. The clues to what must be done are not just available to those whose credentials are mainly that they have less experience. Sometimes, younger people have new and valuable insights based on not being wed to today's orthodoxy, sometimes not, and those younger people who do have valuable ideas can submit their insights to older peers who can most likely best evaluate their efficacy. I doubt that Steve Jobs came up with the idea for the iPad, but he probably grasped that it would be a great product when it was presented to him.

As to specifically what Canon does need to do, there have been some good suggestions in this thread already. Furthermore, I would offer that, generally, they should avoid trying to match Nikon, Sony, et al, but try to come up with truly new ideas, totally new technology that either leapfrogs their competition or entirely changes the paradigm. Examples would be something like an effective true color sensor that avoids the pitfalls of Sigma's Foveon design (low overall sensitiviity and poor SNR at higher ISO's, complex manufacturing and less than great color response because of uneven absorbtion rates of the medium in which the sensors are embedded ), new original technology to increase DR and resolution per sensor area without the usual negatives, new marketing areas for the application of their technologies to increase business opportunities, and, finally, a rationalization of their manufacturing to include the outsourcing of the best and cheapest comnponents from other manufacturers. 

That's enough babbling from me, folks.

Regards,
David


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## thebowtie (Jul 26, 2012)

dafrank said:


> I'm not a chairman of the board of a major Japanese corporation, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. That qualifies me as much as anyone else here to comment on this stuff.


+1e6

Unless you are a significant stock-holder (like a pension / superannuation fund), or a senior executive of Canon, it would be hard to provide a qualified opinion of what the qualities of individuals in leadership roles of Canon should be.

I have posted before, that if you are unhappy with Canon's offerings, you should not whinge about them, rather, do not buy them.

Vote with you wallet! It's by far the most effective management and strategy tool in the market.


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## unfocused (Jul 26, 2012)

Two things jumped out at me.

1) Earlier this year, in its conference call to investors, Canon outlined how seriously in trouble its office machines division is. They readily acknowledged that profits from the camera division were being used to offset losses in office equipment. Copier sales were down, in part because of the worldwide recession, causing businesses to delay and/or reduce purchases of office copiers and other equipment. This article confirms that the problem is in office equipment sales. People on this forum think it's all about cameras and about new photography gizmos. But, that's not where the problem has been for Canon.

2) What investors are looking for is seldom what customers are looking for. It's pretty clear from this article that investors want someone to come in and cut costs and maximize profits. Chairman Mitarai sounds like an old-fashioned sort of business executive who believes that producing a quality product and outperforming your competitors is the best formula for long-term success. Frankly, I much prefer that approach to the short-term, quick-profit, reduce investment approach so popular among large corporations today. 
As a consumer of Canon products, Chairman Mitarai sounds like exactly the kind of executive I want in charge of the company. 

If I were a short-term investor interested in making a quick profit on the stock, and with no real investment in the product line itself, I might agree with Mr. Martin of Barrons. But, as a consumer, I cringe at the thought of what would happen to Canon products if they brought in a team of young hotshots as proposed by Barrons.


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## Jotho (Jul 26, 2012)

Difficult to say what they should do although the real game changers are often things that we as consumers didn't even know we needed or wanted until they came out. ipad as an example, that idea was already old and products were launched years before Apple 'came up' with the idea. They however offered it in a very tasteful package and (most importantly) as an integrated part of a system. That is a strength that Canon holds with its EOS-system, but it would probably need to contain more different products and features, specifically around inter-connectivity, internet connectivity etc. 

I don't think Canon's future depends solely on a new lens or a cooler sensor (although we would like it very much on this forum), we know very little on where Canon makes money and where they need to move to make more money, we get clues in the article on the high margin areas that they need to move to and what areas they need to improve in such as printers and copiers. BUT, these are American analysts speaking and Japanese tend to run their companies their own ways which has proven very effective. They will think their own way on this.

I would hope that they saw a way to work the P&S market so they could meet the threat coming from phones. Maybe just moving away from it is what they need to do, they could never be successful in start making a phone of their own. Also proven already is that phone buyers don't care about image quality or brand names (remember when SonyEricsson sold phones branded Cyber Shot).

Let's just hope for the best and that they stay long term focused ;D


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## mchubi (Jul 26, 2012)

Well, some people will call this a "blasphemie". But if Canon could adapt Nokias pureview technology (http://i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/849564/data/2/-/Download1.pdf) to increase image-quality, especially high-iso would get quite a leap. Yes, first I thought "41mp cam in a smartphone. They're gone nuts!". But if you look at the taken images, well, at least in the p+s segment Canon could set up new fires.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 26, 2012)

@awinphoto


> So they are upset that the president of the company in 1996-2006, (when canon ruled the digital world and was on top of the game)





> He helped canon get out of the struggling Film SLR market where they were seen as second violin to Nikon





> Of course, 2007 to present is when most view canon's fall to nikon



Directly contradictory post there...


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## kdsand (Jul 26, 2012)

My esteemed colleagues I would like to thank you for all the valuable insight offered thus far.....


Any whooo. :

I totally agree - go rob a bank if you want short term pay out. An executive should be compensated based on long term performance for crying out loud even regular employees have to go years to gain modest benifits such as being vested or being able to retire with a _ pension_. Bring back some soul to business, pride in branding & reliability. 

Certain markets are seemingly fairly predictable such as DSLR's and optics, though they seem to have been coasting by in the last several years. For example the 7D has been known as a great solid tool for years now so figure with how long the r&d & development took - its inception could potentially trace back around ten years. In the last several years the rebels & 60D have in a sense been offshoots of the 7D. I'm not so sure the 5DIII can claim a rock solid title but canon sure needs something to do so. 

As far as cell phones vs point & shoots
Dont even try to compeat. Give people access with their cell phones & tablets to their cameras. Heck leave the screen off the camera for all I care I'm rubbing my nose against it anyway. I like and need a nice screen but I already carry several anyway. Imagine having the new M linked wireless to your phone then you would have room for a view finder. Regardless cell phones & tablets will soon be linked to our cameras. Its already happening. 

If other Canon divisions are floundering I doubt they dare rock the boat much in the consumer optical arena but they can't stagnate and loose much more ground to Nikon either. It will be interesting. 

2¢ here and 2¢ there.


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## 4D (Jul 26, 2012)

He has a tough task ahead. Some financial insight from Bloomberg news:

"Canon Inc., the world's largest camera maker, plunged the most in more than three years in Tokyo after cutting its full-year profit forecast because of a stronger yen and expectations for weaker global growth.The shares declined 7.8 percent to close at 2,470 yen, the most since November 2008. 

The company kept the sales target for single-lens reflex cameras, used by professionals, unchanged at 9.2 million units. Appreciating YenThe maker of EOS models said earlier this week the company is introducing its first mirrorless model in September, joining Nikon Corp. in tapping growing demand for lightweight cameras with interchangeable lenses.

“Even as the worsening macro economy and a stronger yen were expected to damage Canon's earnings, an intensifying competition in laser printers was unexpected,” Tetsuya Wadaki, an analyst at Nomura Securities Co., said in a report yesterday. It was also a surprise that sales estimates weren't improved after a new mirrorless camera model was unveiled on July 23, he said."


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## Canon-F1 (Jul 26, 2012)

> Less reliance on Japanese Manufacturing and labour costs.



as long as he will not outsource everything to crappy china im ok with a 70+ chairman.

outsourcing camera production to china would be a moronic thing to do.
china has no real digital camera producion yet.. but that would change very fast.

china steals every idea and comes up with a cost reduced cheaper product.
they build a factory to produce outsourced stuff for you and 500m away they build a second factory to copy your ideas.

the end result you can see when looking at studio strobes and studio accessories.
a zillion of cheap clones. 
not bad for the customers at first sight.. but sure bad for the companys who outsourced to china....


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## Canon-F1 (Jul 26, 2012)

4D said:


> He has a tough task ahead. Some financial insight from Bloomberg news:
> 
> "Canon Inc., the world's largest camera maker, plunged the most in more than three years in Tokyo after cutting its full-year profit forecast because of a stronger yen and expectations for weaker global growth.The shares declined 7.8 percent to close at 2,470 yen, the most since November 2008.



well bad fo shareholders but that´s the problem with stocks.
you can make a profit but as long as you don´t make MORE profit then last year every shareholder will scream and whine... 


i think he will maybe have a though task to keep shareholders happy (they are a bunch of greedy morons anyway) ... but not to keep canon profitable.


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## 4D (Jul 26, 2012)

Canon-F1 said:


> 4D said:
> 
> 
> > He has a tough task ahead. Some financial insight from Bloomberg news:
> ...



I agree about the stock price, but if cashflow is drying up as suggested by the analysts, the global economy is slowing rapidly, then the incentive to spend big on R&D is low, better to sweat some more return out of existing lines and work already done.

That's why it is tough. Balancing keeping shareholders and tough crowds of users wanting state of the art equipment happy.


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## marekjoz (Jul 26, 2012)

Maybe a solution at least in the DSLR area would be a killer FF, a cashcow like 5d2, was? They have really good profit margin on it. If they put 1dx sensor in a 5d3 body, reduce iso and fps, they may collect enough to survive and get ready for next year.


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## Canon-F1 (Jul 26, 2012)

marekjoz said:


> If they put 1dx sensor in a 5d3 body, reduce iso and fps, they may collecti enough to survive and get ready for next year.



survive?

well.. thats some sort of word i would expect at fox news headline.

canon is making less PROFIT.... that´s not the same as making billions of loss like sony.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 26, 2012)

> survive?
> 
> well.. thats some sort of word i would expect at fox news headline.



That made me LOL.

Until recently I was genuinely of the firmly held opinion that Fox News was a really subtle satire along the lines of the 'The Day Today' or 'Brass Eye'....


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## marekjoz (Jul 26, 2012)

Canon-F1 said:


> marekjoz said:
> 
> 
> > If they put 1dx sensor in a 5d3 body, reduce iso and fps, they may collecti enough to survive and get ready for next year.
> ...



yes, survive. If shareholders are unhappy, many stupid things can occur. Of course I didn't mean they are about to close the business. What I mean't for survive was: "running business as usually and evolve without any revolution as it might be too risky." 
What I should mention before is, that I don't think that revolutionary changing the way they work and manage would be safe. I'd rather see putting some fresh air but without sending old guys out. Revolution in their case might happen bad. The whole organisation is rather very conservative and it of course causes a problem with innovation.
Some of you require more revolutionary and groundbreaking solutions and I don't see them achieving it the way, I guess you might expect. Let them do their job and follow the market innovations first (but without being closed with patents). 
For the company it is important to invest in R&D, because this is the way they can be technologically competive on the market and this is their asset. It requires time and efforts and doesn't give results right now. The other way to be innovative is an incident, like accidently following some fresh idea and getting good results (ie - there is a guy, who got his 100k for development his idea and he succedeed, but they gave him like 5% chance for success). 
You might run R&D evolutionary step by step providing feedback from the market with laboratory and scientific work or get 20 young yuppies, give them 100k each and wait for the results - maybe someone gets something interesting. I simply don't see it in their case the other way, so the very important thing for them in a long horizon time is collecting money for long term R&D, without making shareholders angry with these - from their point of view - unneccessery spendings. It's safe to collect money for R&D with such a cashcow. Let fhem flow the market with cheaper and good FF with much less profit margin than currently. 
Do they miss innovations because they have not enough money for it? Most probably.I wouldn't like to get know that they follow the path: "If there is no solution so there is no problem". The other look on this sounds: "If the problem can be solved with money, then this is not a problem, this is a cost". In their case in fact this is an investment, which they need as a water and air, because without R&D they will not survive as company we know them today. This company maybe doesn't react what you would like, but still most of us like their products. Without money, they will not invest in R&D. With shareholders demanding higher stock prices and larger sales number so the more profit for them, they can cut money for R&D which would bring money back is some time.

Cashcow -> money -> R&D -> Survive 

Making such a cashcow is currently the best way to collect money for R&D and survive in a longer term. That's what I wanted to say and this is the only revolution, they could afford.


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## Neeneko (Jul 26, 2012)

canon816 said:


> Wow... A bunch of whining here. Canon produces camera after camera that continues to push ISO quality and resolution at the same time while packing them with mind blowing features like 6, 10, 14FPS!!! Do you pixel peepers even use your cameras anymore?



I think comments like this are why we can't have nice discussions.

This pretty much reduces to 'features I find important are improving, anyone who says otherwise does not matter because they are a pixel peeper'.

Yes, Canon has pushed forward in certain domains. They have been flagging in others. One of the classical problems when you have stagnant leadership is you tend to get a culture of tunnel vision, increasingly singular criteria that they optimize for because the group think says that is the set of metrics that 'matter', which can leave a company blind to shifts or emerging markets.

In order to continue to be successful on the scale Canon is, you have to address as many profitable market segments as possible, not narrow down to a smaller segment(s) that 'matter(s)' and hope brand loyalty and 'good enough' carry the others.

Then there was their mirrorless entry. A lackluster clone in a new market which already has some serious contenders in it. For the moment there is no good reason to buy the Canon mirrorless over others outside the brand, and brand can only take you so far when your primary target is new customers.


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## marekjoz (Jul 26, 2012)

Neeneko said:


> canon816 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow... A bunch of whining here. Canon produces camera after camera that continues to push ISO quality and resolution at the same time while packing them with mind blowing features like 6, 10, 14FPS!!! Do you pixel peepers even use your cameras anymore?
> ...



Yes, there is a whining, because for many people 5d3 didn't give significant value to go for it. Could it give more for the same money? I think it could without canibalizing other products. Why didn't it give? Only three reason I see:
1. They couldn't offer anything better because they didn't have it. Solution -> better R&D. 
2. They could offer but didn't want to. Why? Do they have something else for collecting money from the market or they didn't evaluate the market demand and needs properly? Solution -> give us something else, or don't loose a contact with the market.
3. They couldn't offer anything better because their profit margin would fall down. Solution -> decide: more outsourcing, less control, better product value, more profit or worse product, better control, own manufacturing and less profit in total because of the gross sales.
If they are satisfied with the value they've built with 5d3, then there is no reason to look for reasons in falling global economy or exchange rates because it means in the end, that the value built with 5d3 was not good enough.
Maybe it is the similar situation with their other products?


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 26, 2012)

@marekjoz


> Yes, there is a whining, because for many people 5d3 didn't give significant value to go for it.



Don't go for it then.

Next.


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## marekjoz (Jul 26, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> @marekjoz
> 
> 
> > Yes, there is a whining, because for many people 5d3 didn't give significant value to go for it.
> ...



Welcome to adult people discussion.... Everything's fine, Canon is great and they don't make mistakes knowing what they will do in ten years ahead.


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## canon816 (Jul 26, 2012)

Neeneko said:


> I think comments like this are why we can't have nice discussions.
> 
> This pretty much reduces to 'features I find important are improving, anyone who says otherwise does not matter because they are a pixel peeper'.



Yes, you are correct. And I apologize for my reactive comment.

It just continues to amaze me how thread after thread after thread on this forum contains so much complaining about canon and how they are falling so short on every front. It seems everyone is so worried about numbers and stats that they lose focus of what amazing tools the camera industry is putting out there.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 26, 2012)

@marekjoz


> Welcome to adult people discussion.... Everything's fine, Canon is great and they don't make mistakes knowing what they will do in ten years ahead.



A very grown up response there. I'm fed up with the whole 5D3 thing.
If it's not for you then don't buy one.
If you want a D800 buy that instead.

Don't say you never had choices.

Or hey, you could be really adult and decide that actually your 5D2 is working fine for you so you could skip a generation for when something that's more of an upgrade for you comes along.

It's a broad church and there are lots of differing user demands and plenty of options.

If Nikon hadn't launched the D800 or it was at a different price point from the 5D3 (say a 36MP D5) then we wouldn't be having any of these frankly repetitive and increasingly boring discussions. Do you NEED 36MP?

If so it begs the question what you were using up until now, and why you can't keep using it.

If you don't then chill a bit. Spend a bit more time out in the fresh air taking pics. It can be quite theraputic.


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## marekjoz (Jul 26, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> @marekjoz
> 
> 
> > Welcome to adult people discussion.... Everything's fine, Canon is great and they don't make mistakes knowing what they will do in ten years ahead.
> ...



I don't remind complaining on 5d3 myself. What I wrote here as well was: "for many people". There was not "for many people including me". The true is, that if I could afford one right now, I'd have it already, but I don't complain that I don't or that it's bad. We discuss here Canon's global approach, their possible changes as well as peoples' feelings on their products being an important influence factor on this approach. I quoted voice of many people important in this discussion and you are just fed up reading about 5d3. 
That's ok if you feel I should go out


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 26, 2012)

I think we all should! To quote Chas Smash '[email protected] Art!, Let's Dance!'


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## awinphoto (Jul 26, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> @awinphoto
> 
> 
> > So they are upset that the president of the company in 1996-2006, (when canon ruled the digital world and was on top of the game)
> ...



Ermmm... it's first thing in the morning here but what's contradictory... Film era... canon struggled behind nikon... no denying that... the nikon F5 is still seen as the best film camera out there... this guy becomes present end of the 90's and comes out with the D30, D60, 10D, 20D, 30D and maybe even the 40D during that stretch, not to mention the 5D, 1D, 1Ds, and a crap load of rebels, all blowing nikon out of the water, not to mention solidifying a lens lineup that nikon couldn't match... 2006, he steps down, nikon all of a sudden starts competing and came out with the D200 and D300 which started owning the xxd series and so on and so forth... when this guy was in charge, Canon was on top of the world... When he wasn't Canon wasn't. It's not to say that history will repeat itself and Canon will start taking nikon behind the woodshed again, but perhaps his final acts before he eventually retires is to steer Canon back on track to greatness. It's not as far fetched as you think.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 26, 2012)

Would take issue with the comment re: film bodies.

f4's, f5's certainly had a perception of better build quality than the plastic but tough EOS 1N, but Canon ruled in the AF stakes if not purely by body then by in-lens ring type USM motors, and FTM.

There was nothing between the f6 and 1V, and the f5 was only really better if you liked the option WLF's on your 35mm SLR.

Canon have been very busy lately. I am the first to bemoan some of the silly prices for some of the new lenses (25-70 f2.8 II, 24 7 28 IS) but these all hint at serving cameras with much higher resolution.

I have nothing against Nikon, I would like an aperture ring every now and then. I would have liked in body wireless flash 5 years before the 7D came out. But I wouldn't write Canon off. Not yet. Until the D3x only Sony made a comparable camera (well up to ISO400 at least) up until the D3200 Canon ruled the mid and entry level on specs.

Nikon have got nowhere close to Canons compacts for years, especially at the serious end.

Not that it's about that.

If what is in your hands works for you then brilliant. If not change it for something that does, if Canon don't make it just now, come back in a few months.


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## awinphoto (Jul 26, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> Would take issue with the comment re: film bodies.
> 
> f4's, f5's certainly had a perception of better build quality than the plastic but tough EOS 1N, but Canon ruled in the AF stakes if not purely by body then by in-lens ring type USM motors, and FTM.
> 
> ...



Fair enough... to be honest, up until the D60 and 10D came out, I shot about 80%-90% medium format and large format... I rarely shot 35mm because AF was terrible and manually focusing on a small VF (compared to MF and LF) to me was cumbersome... and frankly, 35mm was size limited in print to a 11x14 maximum, and even then you were expecting your ISO 100 film to start to fall apart a bit at that size. Not that I was printing a ton of wall portraits at that time, but the idea of being limited wasn't appealing to me... when Canon went digital, and AF was good (at the time to my expectations compared to prior versions) I starting shooting more 35mm, well aps-c... anywho... I always had a 35mm canon film, but didn't shoot it much and it was always the kinda unspoken truth at the time that nikon had better bodies, canon better lenses... Whether one was really better at the time, it's hard to tell, but I worked at my colleges photo studio rental dept and more nikon bodies (for my school and sample size) was rented than canon film bodies by nearly 4:1 give or take but oddly enough, more canon digitals were rented than nikon bodies by about the same margin... so take it for what it's worth... now everything is changing, new cameras are sprouting out of nowhere every few months it seems and it will be interesting when all the dust settles to see where everything falls into place.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 26, 2012)

> new cameras are sprouting out of nowhere every few months it seems and it will be interesting when all the dust settles to see where everything falls into place.



I concur, but doubt the dust will settle long enough to allow a clear view. Canon will trump Nikon for a spell, Nikon will trump Canon for a spell. Some folk will change systems overnight on a whim, other folk will keep shooting with whatever was working for them.


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## Gothmoth (Jul 26, 2012)

marekjoz said:


> Canon-F1 said:
> 
> 
> > marekjoz said:
> ...



sorry but that is so way off when we discuss about canon, it´s not really worth an answer.

as was said before.. worry about sony or olmypus.

look who claims the most patents.. so much about R&D at canon.




> Canon top five US patent holder for 26th year
> 
> 
> London, April 18, 2012 – Canon Europe, world-leader in imaging solutions, today announced its parent company, Canon Inc., registered 2,813 new patents during 2011, surpassing the company record of 2,543 new patents in 2010. Based on weekly patent counts issued by the United States Patent and Trademark Office for 2011, Canon placed third overall marking a new milestone in the company’s history as one of the top five patent holders worldwide for more than a quarter of a century.
> ...


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## bigbadhenry (Jul 26, 2012)

thebowtie said:


> dafrank said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not a chairman of the board of a major Japanese corporation, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. That qualifies me as much as anyone else here to comment on this stuff.
> ...



Just what I'm doing, Canon don't have an up to date semi-pro 1.6 crop camera so I'll stick with what I have. 

Canon needs a 7d MK II, not every one wants a full frame jobbie.

Cheers Mike


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## Neeneko (Jul 26, 2012)

canon816 said:


> It just continues to amaze me how thread after thread after thread on this forum contains so much complaining about canon and how they are falling so short on every front. It seems everyone is so worried about numbers and stats that they lose focus of what amazing tools the camera industry is putting out there.



This I can easily agree with ^_^ even if each new generation is not focused on some specific segment, they generally out preform earlier designs across the board.

Though personally I will continue to bitch and moan about the lack of range in monochrome camera offerings available today, and of course the dearth of affordable view cameras (film ones were expensive but accessible, digital ones are priced out of most people's range, so I feel we are really loosing a valuable tool there, at least on the hobbyist level). But I know both of those are rather niche ^_^


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## bdunbar79 (Jul 26, 2012)

bigbadhenry said:


> thebowtie said:
> 
> 
> > dafrank said:
> ...



I agree. I'd rather see a 7D Mark II. Hey you know what, I might even buy one!


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## unfocused (Jul 26, 2012)

For those interested in what is actually happening, instead of just making drive-by comments, here a couple of stories that are much better than the Barron's report.

http://news.yahoo.com/canon-cuts-full-operating-profit-forecast-euro-woes-061208701--finance.html

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-26/canon-falls-most-in-13-years-after-cutting-forecast-tokyo-mover.html

DSLR sales are strong but point and shoots are losing to cell phones (no surprise there). Canon is being hurt by the general contraction in office equipment sales that are also affecting their competitors in that segment. HP is a big customer and HP's sales are hurting as well. The Yen is strong, the dollar is weak and the Euro is a disaster. In short, in the midst of a worldwide business crisis, a company that relies heavily on selling equipment to businesses is suffering. Duh!

As a result of these market forces, Canon is expecting its profits to *improve* over last year by less than they originally predicted. As others have pointed out, this isn't a case of the company losing money. In fact it isn't even a case of the company earning less profit. It's a case of *increasing *profits by less than they had anticipated.

Clearly the Barron's columnist had an ax to grind. To suggest that a management change is needed at a company that is *growing* its profits in the midst of a worldwide economic crisis seems a bit over-the-top.


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## distant.star (Jul 26, 2012)

Neeneko said:


> Then there was their mirrorless entry. A lackluster clone in a new market which already has some serious contenders in it. For the moment there is no good reason to buy the Canon mirrorless over others outside the brand, and brand can only take you so far when your primary target is new customers.



.
I find this a nearly startling characterization of the new Canon M. A lackluster clone? I'll bet a 1DX to your little Powershot that Sony, Olympus, Panasonic, Samsung, Fuju and even Nikon are not singing that song. If you want to say it's lackluster, you'd better bring some facts. Also, what's your basis for saying the primary target market is "new customers"?

I'd define new customers as people who have no experience with Canon cameras. That, I think, is a pretty hard sell and making that a primary market would seem suicidal. If there is any primary market, I think it's mostly people who have some experience with point & shoot cameras, many of them Canon Powershots. The M can tempt them to step up to genuine SLR performance in a package they're familiar with. A vast secondary market consists of all of us who have Canon lenses and already know great images can be produced by that 18MP sensor. Suddenly, there's a simple little camera that is compatible with every EOS lens we already have. That's called a major competitive advantage. How do you get that with Sony? Olympus? And Canon lenses are the world's best general market lenses. If I were in the market for something like the Powershot S100 today, I'd be hard pressed not to go with the M instead. The slight size increase, with say the new 40mm lens, would be hard to ignore given the image quality and versatility advantages.

While somehow you see this as "lackluster," competitors see this as Canon leveraging their market dominance, and you better believe they don't see it as lackluster. I also see it as Canon's first step down the road to totally eliminating the mirror-based DSLR. If I were working the camera floor at Best Buy, I'd be overjoyed with the Canon M. What a great alternative to offer buyers!

Let's wait and see what other "lackluster" offerings this current Canon leadership brings us.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 26, 2012)

unfocused said:


> In fact it isn't even a case of the company earning less profit. It's a case of *increasing *profits by less than they had anticipated.



In the world of finance, growing by less than anticipated is still very bad. Look at Apple - despite selling 28% more iPhones and 84% more iPads (year-over-year) and a *23% increase in revenue* which beat Apple's own predictions, those gains still fell short of analysts' expectations of the most recent quarterly report, and their stock has dropped 6.4% over the past week. That translates to a market cap loss of more than $35 billion dollars (which is nearly equal in size to the entire Canon, Inc. valuation!).


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## awinphoto (Jul 26, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > In fact it isn't even a case of the company earning less profit. It's a case of *increasing *profits by less than they had anticipated.
> ...



Then the question has to be, if we know or assume it is the office products and P&S that are killing canon and they are making it up and then some with DSLR's, would it be worth while shutting them down or scaling them back and putting more money and resources in the DSLR market since that is their bread and butter... Nikon has been a one trick pony for decades, why cant canon...


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## Neeneko (Jul 26, 2012)

distant.star said:


> I find this a nearly startling characterization of the new Canon M. A lackluster clone? I'll bet a 1DX to your little Powershot that Sony, Olympus, Panasonic, Samsung, Fuju and even Nikon are not singing that song. If you want to say it's lackluster, you'd better bring some facts. Also, what's your basis for saying the primary target market is "new customers"?



It is pretty much like every other mirrorless entry right now. Nothing really differentiates it other then having fewer lenses available for it's new mount and, of course, Canon's name associated with it.. which in the mirrorless space isn't worth much since they are just entering.



> Suddenly, there's a simple little camera that is compatible with every EOS lens we already have. That's called a major competitive advantage. How do you get that with Sony? Olympus?



Ahm. Yes. Adapters exist for putting EF lenses on those bodies already.



> While somehow you see this as "lackluster," competitors see this as Canon leveraging their market dominance, and you better believe they don't see it as lackluster. I also see it as Canon's first step down the road to totally eliminating the mirror-based DSLR. If I were working the camera floor at Best Buy, I'd be overjoyed with the Canon M. What a great alternative to offer buyers!



They might fear Canon's marketing department and resources, so yes, their dominance might play in... but for the moment they are just a late player to an emerging market with a product essentially identical to existing ones. It could pan out any number of ways, but right now it kinda feels like a 'too little, too late'.


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## unfocused (Jul 26, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > In fact it isn't even a case of the company earning less profit. It's a case of *increasing *profits by less than they had anticipated.
> ...



Yes, I understand that. But, there is a difference between under-performance due to management weaknesses and under-performance due to external market conditions. The Barron's columnist is trying to make the case that the current management is at fault, while other analysts are looking at Canon's numbers and viewing them as indicative of what is happening in the entire sector. They are basically saying: "if Canon is having problems, it is going to be worse for other companies in the same sector."

The Barron's columnist would replace the top executive at Canon because Americans and Europeans have screwed up their respective economies. That's a non-sequitur.


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## Daniel Flather (Jul 26, 2012)

unfocused said:


> ...quality product...long-term success.



+1


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## mystic_theory (Jul 26, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Yes, I understand that. But, there is a difference between under-performance due to management weaknesses and under-performance due to external market conditions. The Barron's columnist is trying to make the case that the current management is at fault, while other analysts are looking at Canon's numbers and viewing them as indicative of what is happening in the entire sector. They are basically saying: "if Canon is having problems, it is going to be worse for other companies in the same sector."
> 
> The Barron's columnist would replace the top executive at Canon because Americans and Europeans have screwed up their respective economies. That's a non-sequitur.



Since I trust the market for financial matters more than bloggers, I went to Google finance and compared the performance of Canon stock (TYO:7751) with Nikon stock (TYO:7731): year to date Canon lost 27.57% while Nikon gained 22.80%. I guess that's enough to judge the respective managements and products. All the rest is bla bla bla...


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 26, 2012)

> Since I trust the market for financial matters more than bloggers, I went to Google finance and compared the performance of Canon stock (TYO:7751) with Nikon stock (TYO:7731): year to date Canon lost 27.57% while Nikon gained 22.80%. I guess that's enough to judge the respective managements and products. All the rest is bla bla bla...



Both Canon and Nikon are recovering from the devastating effects of tsunamis in Japan and Indonesia. It has been a volatile couple of years for both companies and is likely to remain so as the effects of lost production facilites and investment in new ones continues to be felt. This is the greater context, DXO mark and some bloggers will probably have some effect, but largely against the greater adversities I think it is bla bla bla


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## mystic_theory (Jul 27, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> > Since I trust the market for financial matters more than bloggers, I went to Google finance and compared the performance of Canon stock (TYO:7751) with Nikon stock (TYO:7731): year to date Canon lost 27.57% while Nikon gained 22.80%. I guess that's enough to judge the respective managements and products. All the rest is bla bla bla...
> 
> 
> 
> Both Canon and Nikon are recovering from the devastating effects of tsunamis in Japan and Indonesia. It has been a volatile couple of years for both companies and is likely to remain so as the effects of lost production facilites and investment in new ones continues to be felt. This is the greater context, DXO mark and some bloggers will probably have some effect, but largely against the greater adversities I think it is bla bla bla



This is the "beauty" of forums and blogs: one doesn't have to be smart or even just to understand what others wrote; it's enough if one writes something, anything, and all will be fine.

Now I elaborate: I know all that you wrote, but did you realize that the performance of Nikon is +22.80% and not -22.80%?
It's not "recovering", it's doing quite well indeed in this adverse market. The opposite is true for Canon.
If you moreover want to see the effect of any event on the stock price further in the past, just again look at both charts (TYO:7751 and TYO:7731) on Google finance: you'd be amazed to see how analysts quantify in terms of price change all the bla bla bla; most of it amounts to zero.


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## distant.star (Jul 27, 2012)

.
Basing a corporate health assessment on two quarters is like making a judgment on World War II the day after Pearl Harbor.

It may be misleading.



mystic_theory said:


> Since I trust the market for financial matters more than bloggers, I went to Google finance and compared the performance of Canon stock (TYO:7751) with Nikon stock (TYO:7731): year to date Canon lost 27.57% while Nikon gained 22.80%. I guess that's enough to judge the respective managements and products. All the rest is bla bla bla...


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 27, 2012)

> did you realize that the performance of Nikon is +22.80% and not -22.80%?
> It's not "recovering", it's doing quite well indeed in this adverse market.



Yeah I did. And thats why I painted you a nice picture of where things had been in the last couple of years.
Things are getting better. And thats because things were baaaaaad. 

Is it slotting into place at all?


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## mystic_theory (Jul 27, 2012)

distant.star said:


> .
> Basing a corporate health assessment on two quarters is like making a judgment on World War II the day after Pearl Harbor.
> 
> It may be misleading.



I agree that these last two quarters have been like Pearl Harbor for Canon, I just hope that the rest will go like World War II as well (at least in terms of change of course): after D800 vs 5D Mark III and t4i vs 3200D (which in theory should be compared to the t3 or a future t4), I'm afraid to see what D7100 vs 70D will look like (I'm planning to upgrade to the 70D).


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## Kit. (Jul 27, 2012)

mystic_theory said:


> Since I trust the market for financial matters more than bloggers, I went to Google finance and compared the performance of Canon stock (TYO:7751) with Nikon stock (TYO:7731): year to date Canon lost 27.57% while Nikon gained 22.80%. I guess that's enough to judge the respective managements and products. All the rest is bla bla bla...


Does Nikon make office equipment?


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## mystic_theory (Jul 27, 2012)

Kit. said:


> Does Nikon make office equipment?


No (as I'm sure you already know since you asked) they don't. Indeed comparing Canon with Nikon stocks is a little like comparing oranges with mandarines, but since Barons article is about the company as a whole and it is difficult to come up with another company more similar to Canon than Nikon to factor out market conditions, the comparison should still give a good indication on the quality of Canon management.


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## ScottyP (Jul 27, 2012)

In my utterly meaningless capacity of O.P., I hereby declare (without any relevance) that this thread has been hijacked.
My point was about the "bleak" and perhaps not "scathing" portrait painted by the article.
Canon is not CURRENTLY competing by price: in prices they still exceed even Nikon. 
They are not leading in "meaningless" benchmarks like Megapixels.
Their mirrorless product is what it is.
Canon may have some advantage in high-ISO with lower noise. (GOOD!)
Canon has a lot of other products besides DSLR's which are REALLY doing poorly, and to which by comparison cameras are an area of healthy business. Those areas (copiers, etc., ) are doing even worse than their competitors.
UNLESS, of course, they can suddenly transform the playing field with a game-changing new product(camera or otherwise), or if they can regain the jump on NIKON on DSLR tech.

The point of the article seemed to be the lack of recent innovation, the loss of market share and the lack of hope for the future.


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## mystic_theory (Jul 27, 2012)

Well, I really hope then that at Canon besides trying to improve their copy machines and other office equipment they'll keep an eye also on DSLR cameras.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 27, 2012)

you'll hear it here first.

And as the 1DX reviews are saying... the best DSLR camera in the world isn't purely about resolution.


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## whatta (Jul 27, 2012)

thebowtie said:


> I have posted before, that if you are unhappy with Canon's offerings, you should not whinge about them, rather, do not buy them.
> 
> Vote with you wallet! It's by far the most effective management and strategy tool in the market.


well, this is not that easy if you invested in glass already.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 27, 2012)

> well, this is not that easy if you invested in glass already.



Yes it is.

Buy something that fits your lenses but is better than what you have.

If there's nothing better or nothing you want to upgrade to then why does it matter? Just keep using whats already working for you.

Not directed at above, but in general...

A helluva lot of these whiney posts about what Nikon are doing seems more about brinkmanship or bragging rights or keeping ahead of the Joneses than actually about taking pictures or shooting video.

I don't need 36MP. If I did I'd already have a 36MP camera. I can deduce therefore that the D800 doesn't matter to me.

Not much that Nikon is up to does matter to me.

I don't use them. I use canon. Quite happily. Selfishly speaking from a video perspective I think the advances on the 5D3 are great. Headphone socket. Breaks the 4GB clip limitation. Choice of temporal and spatial compressions. All very useful and very welcome upgrades. That it also gets a 1D style AF system is brilliant for my stills. I think the 5D3 is great. A very logical and considered upgrade.

I might even buy one. But then I never had a 5D2 (although used plenty) 

If I was sitting here with a 5D2 would I be annoyed that the 5D3 didn't represent a great value upgrade? Nope.
I'd keep using the 5D2 and await the 5D4.

Nikon didn't enter into it once.


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## sanj (Jul 27, 2012)

No its not.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 27, 2012)

Why is it not?


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## dickgrafixstop (Jul 27, 2012)

Canon is suffering from the inertia of a large corporate environment - delicately balancing new products and innovation with protecting it's product install base. Incremental improvement with minimum risk is the rule, and
maintaining or slightly improving overall company financials is the goal. They are suffering increased competition
from Brother and Samsung in the small laser printer markets, from Nikon is the DSLR arena, from Apple's Iphone in the point and shoot market, Xerox in high volume copiers and others who have a desire and incentive to knock the "king off the throne." I wouldn't look for any breakthrough products - look at the mediocre mirrorless offering as an example - but maybe some pricing actions since financial stability is a Canon strength.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 27, 2012)

> look at the mediocre mirrorless offering



What's mediocre about it? A higher pixel count and larger sensor than most of its competitors? Access to an established and widely varying system of lenses?

Touch screen interface is naff, but in the market segment...
Stupidly high priced. But that will change.

I am not a huge fan of it, but I wouldn't say it was mediocre.


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## ScottyP (Jul 28, 2012)

whatta said:


> thebowtie said:
> 
> 
> > I have posted before, that if you are unhappy with Canon's offerings, you should not whinge about them, rather, do not buy them.
> ...



Yes, you are right (no, it is not that easy). 
I get livid when I see people saying "if you disagree with anything Canon is doing, do not talk about it. Instead you should dump all your (EXPENSIVE) camera gear at a loss and go buy it all over with Nikon. Bull.
1.) Do you really expect to go to a website about a product and read NO NEGATIVE VIEWS??? If you want that, go join a cult. 
2.) Who the heck are you anyway to tell people they need to shut up?
3.) The whole point of a website about a particular brand is to discuss both its good points and also the points which could use improvement.
4.) Buying from the company (to the tune of THOUSANDS of dollars) gives one the right to comment freely.


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## dickgrafixstop (Jul 28, 2012)

"What's mediocre about it?"
Almost everything! 

"A higher pixel count and larger sensor than most of its competitors?"
Don't confuse pixel count with pixel density. 

"Access to an established and widely varying system of lenses?"
Which via the same adapter route work with almost every other camera in this segment.

Personally, I think Canon would have been better served to put a EOS mount adapter on the G1X,
not withstanding the modifications that would have had to be made to the viewfinder. Perhaps, over
time the M series of lenses will mature, the body will gain a viewfinder, and all will be right in "purse candy"
land.


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## kdsand (Jul 30, 2012)

There are to many variables in action right now. 

I have a gut feeling  if a new top end crop (1.6) 7DII or whatever its named) ends up lackluster or unimpressive Canon will be in a very bad position albeit it from targeting or r&d & this would cause a strong ripple effect in the entire lineup to follow.


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## bigbadhenry (Jul 31, 2012)

""26 July 2012 Last updated at 04:50

Shares in the Japanese camera and office equipment maker Canon have fallen after the firm cut its earnings forecast for this financial year.

Its shares dropped as much as 14% on the Tokyo Stock Exchange.""


Says it all.


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## marekjoz (Jul 31, 2012)

bigbadhenry said:


> ""26 July 2012 Last updated at 04:50
> 
> Shares in the Japanese camera and office equipment maker Canon have fallen after the firm cut its earnings forecast for this financial year.
> 
> ...



Who cares about the share price if they:
- are no. 5 in the amount of patents registered in the US last year
- make the best of the best of best gear in the world spending zillions of $ each year
- employ the smartest people on the planet? 
- have better fanboys than apple

lol


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## unfocused (Aug 8, 2012)

I have mixed emotions about reviving this thread, but can't resist a bit of "I told you so."

Nikon's first quarter results and projections for the year are out. (See Nikon Rumors). Net profit fell by a jaw-dropping 48%!

Now that those numbers are out, it's a little easier to compare performance of Canon and Nikon. The numbers confirm what I said previously – this particular article was written by a single columnist with an ax to grind against Canon's management. 

Demand a change in top leadership at Canon when profits are down 2.4%, while a major competitor's profits are down 48%? 

Fact is, Canon is well-managed and doing very well during tough economic times.


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## briansquibb (Aug 8, 2012)

unfocused said:


> I have mixed emotions about reviving this thread, but can't resist a bit of "I told you so."
> 
> Nikon's first quarter results and projections for the year are out. (See Nikon Rumors). Net profit fell by a jaw-dropping 48%!
> 
> ...


And they avoided selling the 5DIII cheap whereas the D800 must not be earning then much money


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## Jotho (Aug 10, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > I have mixed emotions about reviving this thread, but can't resist a bit of "I told you so."
> ...


 Desperate means from Nikon of course to sell it at that low price. Will be interesting to see the development of their profits once D800 sales will have larger impact. Also, this will have impact on their overall pricing strategies as they will be held back in trying to get better prices for other models they will launch from now on.


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## ScottyP (Aug 10, 2012)

Jotho said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



Losing less than one's competitor is an odd sort of "victory" isn't it? But, yes, hoooray.


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## Jotho (Aug 10, 2012)

ScottyP said:


> Jotho said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...


Yes I totally agree, but in this case they are still making profit as I understand it. It's a dangerous route to try to out-price your competition in an R&D heavy industry like this.


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## mystic_theory (Aug 10, 2012)

I again look at the stocks to judge how well the management runs a company. So, just go to Google Finance, type Canon Inc. (TYO:7751), then compare with Nikon (TYO:7731), and Nikkei 225. The year to date results are:
Canon: -22%; Nikon: +21%; Nikkei 225: -1%.

Despite all the chatter, Nikon is doing much better than Canon in a flat market (so please don't start talking of floods, earthquakes, and nuclear disasters).

My personal opinion (also looking at the quality of the latest products): Canon needs a new management.


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## paul13walnut5 (Aug 10, 2012)

You'll think Apple are doing a great job then?

In 5 years time nobody will buy computers from Apple. 

They've closed the door on the creative professional users who kept them going through the dark days.

And those creative pros will buy PC's next time round that run Adobe CS suite better and for cheaper.

And Samsung may well win a patent battle, or nokia get the nest G network first.

Ask a 1DX owner what Canon are doing wrong.

It's not Sim City. And to write off the legacy of recent natural disasters is a bit foolish. Lets look again in 5 years.

And if Nikon make more money... who cares? If Nikon have more market share... who cares? They make great cameras which I enjoy using.


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## briansquibb (Aug 11, 2012)

Share price is a poor indicator of the health of a company


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