# Portrait off camera flash and catchlight question



## sagittariansrock (Apr 30, 2014)

With my 135L, I frequently need to use the portrait orientation.
However, I don't have a flash bracket and the ones available don't attract me for two reasons:
1. It's another bulky fixture.
2. The flash will be turned sideways (90 degrees compared to when you have it above the lens in landscape orientation. 

Is there any other alternative to use off-camera flash if I don't have an assistant?

Second question: I'm trying to use an eBay knock-off of the flashbender to create catchlights- but I can't see anything!
Is it the distance or the angle of tilt that's wrong? Is the cheap knock-off not as reflective? Do I need to zoom in more (I had mine at 24mm)?

Thanks for your advice.


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## dlleno (May 1, 2014)

A while back I shot a corporate event, featuring the main speaker, without an assistant. the 5D3 with 70-200 f/2.8 IS ii and shoe mounted 580ex ii was my friend, to be sure. I have two other flash units and radio triggers but the venue was not amenable to placing them in strategic locations. I used the bounce card and took advantage of the white ceilings. 

I used a Newton flash bracket, which is collapsible and fits inside my lowepro slingshot. The most important benefit of the bracket is that you loose the hard side-shadows in portrait mode which I personally find objectionable. The camera can rotate between landscape and portrait orientations, while the flash stays where it is. Locating the flash at the center of the lens, and a bit higher than the camera's hot shoe allows you to bounce off the ceiling, using the bounce card for the catch light, and the shadow becomes soft and located just behind and below the subject. even in portrait mode. 

My Newton bracket has AS compatible dovetails machined into it, so I can use a tripod and switch between the bracket and no bracket. bottom line is that the Newton bracket works well, is collapsible and portable, if you are content with a std sized generic plate. 


I'm putting it up for sale because I now have a gripped 5D3 with RRS L bracket and I really like the protection offered by the L bracket, which is code for 'no way I'm removing this'. . Other market solutions (beyond the Newton) are complex and unwieldy contraptions, imho, except for the RRS solution, which may be expensive but to me is the only other solution I would consider. this will be my next solution when I am able to sell the Newton.


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## pwp (May 1, 2014)

Which Newton Bracket do you use? This one?
http://www.newtoncamerabrackets.com/default-old4.htm

-pw


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## Jamesy (May 1, 2014)

I have used the B+H knockoff Vello one and it did the job quite well. It is no where near the build quality of a RRS and it does not have adjustability. I have a 5D3 and cannot use it with my YN-622C as it is too tall with the 622C in the cameras hotshoe when the bracket is rotated. I used a cord and it was fine. With this particular bracket the flash always stays on top.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/743039-REG/Vello_CB_200_Speedy_Camera_Bracket.html


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## neuroanatomist (May 1, 2014)

I have one of the RRS ring brackets, works well and keeps the flash in 'normal' orientation because you rotate it around the ring. You need a collared lens or an MPR-CL rail to use it (the MPR-CL is also a nodal slide for panos). The extension (FA-QREX2) can get the flash quite far off the lens axis. I used to use an OC-E3 with that setup, I now use an ST-E3-RT to trigger a 600EX-RT so there's no cord to get in the way. The bracket holds a 600 with a Lastolite Ezybox Speedlite (not the lightest of 'on-camera' modifiers) with no problem.


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## sagittariansrock (May 1, 2014)

The RRS and Newton are excellent solutions but a bit pricey for me at this point. Eventually I might go for the RRS.
For now, however, the Vello one looks promising. It would be great if it had an Arca Swiss mount (at this point very few cheap brackets do, so that's forgivable). 
The question I have, though, is about room around my L bracket. I am not sure there is enough clearance on the left side. Even on the top, the grip will come really close to the hotshoe since the flash bracket is mounting to the L-bracket (consequently positioned lower with respect to the camera). Jamesy, do you use the flash bracket with an L-bracket?
Thanks for all the advice. Much appreciated.


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## jdramirez (May 1, 2014)

There are a ton of ways to get a woman into bed... yes.. yes I'm going with that phrase. 

I use 2 tripods... 2 580 exii's, three yongnuo 622c's, 1 soft white umbrella, and one flash bender large diffuser...

Alternatively, you could get a hotshoe cord, maybe something that extends 10 feet or so, and then have it tethered to a tripod... or a umbrella/bracket combo...

Heck... when I just had a 430 ex ii, I would just send the flash into a corner of the room I was in and that worked reasonably well.

You have plenty of options... just find the one that works for you.


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## sagittariansrock (May 1, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> There are a ton of ways to get a woman into bed... yes.. yes I'm going with that phrase.
> 
> I use 2 tripods... 2 580 exii's, three yongnuo 622c's, 1 soft white umbrella, and one flash bender large diffuser...
> 
> ...



LOL, JD! I am actually looking into something portable, that sort of moves with me.

BTW, I was also thinking of getting a Gorillapod and wrapping it around my right forearm or setting it on my left shoulder (around my neck). Anyone done something like this?


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## alexanderferdinand (May 1, 2014)

I remember seeing a picture of a man with a quite large rack on his shoulders for bearing the flash.
Was it in this forum?

For quick and dirty out of axis flash I used the cord OC3 and a Sunbouncer, left arm; bit tricky, but for a few shots ok.


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## jdramirez (May 1, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:


> LOL, JD! I am actually looking into something portable, that sort of moves with me.
> 
> BTW, I was also thinking of getting a Gorillapod and wrapping it around my right forearm or setting it on my left shoulder (around my neck). Anyone done something like this?



portable... I'd probably go with a gary fong diffuser, a monopod with feet so you can stand it up like a tripod, and an optical trigger... not the 90ex... which is god awful, but I think the 320 ex does optical triggering... one of the smaller ones... Even then... I do still like the yong 622's because of their IR projection which helps with focus. I like my off camera flashes to be @ 4 o'clock or 8 o'clock... but 5:45 or 6:15 still reminds me of being @ 6 o'clock


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## neuroanatomist (May 1, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> I think the 320 ex does optical triggering... one of the smaller ones...



Nope, the 320EX is slave only. The available optical masters are the 90EX, 5x0/600EX flashes, the ST-E2, and the popup flashes of some recent APS-C bodies.


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## Jamesy (May 1, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:


> The RRS and Newton are excellent solutions but a bit pricey for me at this point. Eventually I might go for the RRS.
> For now, however, the Vello one looks promising. It would be great if it had an Arca Swiss mount (at this point very few cheap brackets do, so that's forgivable).
> The question I have, though, is about room around my L bracket. I am not sure there is enough clearance on the left side. Even on the top, the grip will come really close to the hotshoe since the flash bracket is mounting to the L-bracket (consequently positioned lower with respect to the camera). Jamesy, do you use the flash bracket with an L-bracket?
> Thanks for all the advice. Much appreciated.



I have a 40D with RRS L-Bracket and that fits no problem. My 5D3 has a non-L Kirk plate and that only works in the portrait position with the knockoff (Cameron I think) OC3 cord - the YN-622C is too tall on the 5D3 with Kirk plate. I never take the Kirk off the camera as my hand strap is coupled into it.

Another option a buddy of mine uses is the Manfrotto 233B Telescoping Camera/Flash Bracket:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/278249-REG/Manfrotto_233B_233B_Telescoping_Camera_Flash_Bracket.html

Let me know if you want some pictures of the Vello setup - it may take a day or so base on my schedule right now but I could throw up a few shots of the setup if it helps.


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## wsheldon (May 1, 2014)

I've been debating options myself, and also use an RRS L-bracket. Anyone have experience with the Custom Brackets CB Folding-SA Flash Rotating Bracket (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/920166-REG/custom_brackets_cb_folding_sa_cb_folding_bracket_sa.html)? They sell their brackets with an AS plate at only a $30-40 premium over their standard tripod socket mounted brackets.

Looks like a standard folding flash bracket, but sounds pretty well made. Reviews on the standard bracket are good, but the AS versions appear new.


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## Jamesy (May 1, 2014)

wsheldon said:


> I've been debating options myself, and also use an RRS L-bracket. Anyone have experience with the Custom Brackets CB Folding-SA Flash Rotating Bracket (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/920166-REG/custom_brackets_cb_folding_sa_cb_folding_bracket_sa.html)? They sell their brackets with an AS plate at only a $30-40 premium over their standard tripod socket mounted brackets.
> 
> Looks like a standard folding flash bracket, but sounds pretty well made. Reviews on the standard bracket are good, but the AS versions appear new.



This looks great and AS compatible which is a plus. The only thing is the flash looks like it would be on its side in the portrait position which is what the OP was trying to avoid. My options were limited when I got mine for this reason. I also shoot portraits with the camera shutter button on top and this bracket orients the shutter button towards the ground. It is all a matter of taste I suppose.


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## Jamesy (May 1, 2014)

wsheldon said:


> I've been debating options myself, and also use an RRS L-bracket. Anyone have experience with the Custom Brackets CB Folding-SA Flash Rotating Bracket (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/920166-REG/custom_brackets_cb_folding_sa_cb_folding_bracket_sa.html)? They sell their brackets with an AS plate at only a $30-40 premium over their standard tripod socket mounted brackets.
> 
> Looks like a standard folding flash bracket, but sounds pretty well made. Reviews on the standard bracket are good, but the AS versions appear new.


I am looking at this again and really like the way it folds down. I have shot my bracket with a Lumiquest softbox III in the past, so in that config I would imagine orientation of the flash head would be less of an issue.


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## JustMeOregon (May 1, 2014)

You may want to consider the RF-PRO AS (Rapid Fire) from Custom Brackets. It's the least bulky of all the options I've seen, keeps the flash closest to the lens-axis (to reduce shadows when used for fill), and won't interfere with your regular shooting-style. Custom Brackets is known for their high-quality products, and I've seen good reviews for this model. As much as I love all my RRS-stuff, after a lot of research, I believe that the RF-PRO AS is the flash bracket I'm going with...

http://www.custombrackets.com/products/camera-flash-brackets/rf-pro-as.html


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## dlleno (May 1, 2014)

pwp said:


> Which Newton Bracket do you use? This one?
> http://www.newtoncamerabrackets.com/default-old4.htm
> 
> -pw



yea that's the one. the collapsible Fr model. What I would prefer is a bracket that clamps on to an existing plate -- instead of replacing the plate


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## dlleno (May 1, 2014)

JustMeOregon said:


> You may want to consider the RF-PRO AS (Rapid Fire) from Custom Brackets. It's the least bulky of all the options I've seen, keeps the flash closest to the lens-axis (to reduce shadows when used for fill), and won't interfere with your regular shooting-style. Custom Brackets is known for their high-quality products, and I've seen good reviews for this model. As much as I love all my RRS-stuff, after a lot of research, I believe that the RF-PRO AS is the flash bracket I'm going with...
> 
> http://www.custombrackets.com/products/camera-flash-brackets/rf-pro-as.html



this does look to be a viable alternative to the RRS, and addresses the concerns I expressed in the previous post ,namely that the bracket should clamp onto an existing plate and not require its own plate. An advantage to the Custom Brackets that comes to mind is the stability piece, where you can set the whole assembly down, but this comes at the expense of bulk. I do like the collapsible feature a lot, which means that it is one piece. 

Another point to bear in mind is that flash head height height above the lens is important, so that even without bounce, the shadow behind the subject appears slightly lower. So whatever solution you choose, imho it needs to locate the flash higher than the camera's hot shoe. 

Its hard to evaluate these without using them -- So I can only point out what I like a out the Newton and what I think needs improvement. the things I don't like about the Newton are:

1. stability. the fully loaded solution will flop around if you're not careful
2. the bracket requires its own plate and does not clamp to a std L plate for example 

These elements may have improved over the years; my Newton is about 5 years old. 

Both the Custom Brackets and RRS solutions solve the above two problems. one thing I do like about the RRS solution, which would have been particularly nice in my shoot, is that the bracket clamps directly to the lens plate for collared lenses. for heavy lenses this is an advantage and relieves the camera from having to support anything additional. That's something to consider if you expect to shoot primarily with collared lenses.


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## neuroanatomist (May 1, 2014)

JustMeOregon said:


> You may want to consider the RF-PRO AS (Rapid Fire) from Custom Brackets. It's the least bulky of all the options I've seen, keeps the flash closest to the lens-axis (to reduce shadows when used for fill), and won't interfere with your regular shooting-style. Custom Brackets is known for their high-quality products, and I've seen good reviews for this model. As much as I love all my RRS-stuff, after a lot of research, I believe that the RF-PRO AS is the flash bracket I'm going with...
> 
> http://www.custombrackets.com/products/camera-flash-brackets/rf-pro-as.html



That looks to be a very well-designed flash bracket! For me, the RRS was the best option because my primary use is to mount a 600EX-RT + Better Beamer over a 600/4L IS II, meaning I need a BIG ring for the flash. For routine event portrait use, I'd give the linked product strong consideration.


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## Jamesy (May 1, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> JustMeOregon said:
> 
> 
> > You may want to consider the RF-PRO AS (Rapid Fire) from Custom Brackets. It's the least bulky of all the options I've seen, keeps the flash closest to the lens-axis (to reduce shadows when used for fill), and won't interfere with your regular shooting-style. Custom Brackets is known for their high-quality products, and I've seen good reviews for this model. As much as I love all my RRS-stuff, after a lot of research, I believe that the RF-PRO AS is the flash bracket I'm going with...
> ...



I agree - this looks like a great design for routine event shooting - the large base is very appealing. The price is certainly getting up there but I am sure you get what you pay for in quality, finish and function.


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## neuroanatomist (May 1, 2014)

Jamesy said:


> The price is certainly getting up there but I am sure you get what you pay for in quality, finish and function.



True, but the cheapest you can get away with for the RRS setup is still more expensive, $290 for the medium partial-ring bracket with a non-tilting flash mount and the MPR-CL for use with non-collared lenses.


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## Jamesy (May 1, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Jamesy said:
> 
> 
> > The price is certainly getting up there but I am sure you get what you pay for in quality, finish and function.
> ...



I looked at the RRS a few years back and it was overkill for my needs - I don't shoot events all that often where I would need one. I threw the Vello in the cart one day on a B+H order when it was $35 - now it is $18.95 which is a no brainer for occasional use.

This thread has peaked my interest in better options than the Vello and I may very well pick up a better bracket if I shoot more events as the integrated AS mount just works - no rotation, easy to add/remove the camera, etc...


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## sagittariansrock (May 1, 2014)

wsheldon said:


> I've been debating options myself, and also use an RRS L-bracket. Anyone have experience with the Custom Brackets CB Folding-SA Flash Rotating Bracket (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/920166-REG/custom_brackets_cb_folding_sa_cb_folding_bracket_sa.html)? They sell their brackets with an AS plate at only a $30-40 premium over their standard tripod socket mounted brackets.



I really like this option. It is not bulky, minimalist design, and serves the purpose well. It will also maintain the AS dovetail so I can use it on my tripod. Need to find a bit more information on this, hopefully some videos.



Jamesy said:


> The only thing is the flash looks like it would be on its side in the portrait position which is what the OP was trying to avoid.



Actually, it won't be a problem if instead of flipping the bracket, I just connect the camera on the left arm of the L-bracket. Sure, I won't be able to switch back and forth between portrait and landscape as easily, but with a little planning, that is a non-issue. 
I really like this more than the RF-Pro, which is more bulky and a lot more expensive.


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## sagittariansrock (May 1, 2014)

Ok, I take back what I said about both the Custom Bracket brackets. While they allow a camera with AS plates to be mounted quickly, they don't have the AS dovetails, so cannot be used on a tripod.
Do people who use this never use tripods? Why this glaring omission? I understand one can always stick an AS plate at the bottom of the bracket, but that is unnecessarily adding bulk.
The RRS of course mounts on to the lens plate (or nodal plate) so it maintains the AS dovetail. But it is a bit too pricey and bulky.


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## privatebydesign (May 2, 2014)

If I had to get a bracket for events I'd get this http://www.promediagear.com/ not cheap, but if you factor in the camera plate etc not outrageous. It is light, fast, AC compatible, beautifully engineered, well thought out etc.

I just don't get on with brackets.

As for why the op can't get a catchlight, it is just down to angles, change the angle of your flash head or if you are pointing it up, use the catchlight panel. It has nothing o do with he modifier, just he angles of incidence and reflection.


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## sagittariansrock (May 2, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> As for why the op can't get a catchlight, it is just down to angles, change the angle of your flash head or if you are pointing it up, use the catchlight panel. It has nothing o do with he modifier, just he angles of incidence and reflection.



Well I did try pointing it both up and slightly forward, trying different angles- with the flashbender also tilted up, and slightly forward. It just doesn't seem to reflect enough. I even took a photo of the panel in the mirror with the flash firing and the flashbender clone wasn't lit up as much as I expected (granted, this wasn't very scientifically done).
That's why I am thinking it might be one of two things- I am using TTL- that is probably making the flash power really low. Otherwise, the material isn't reflective enough.
I need to do a bit more experimentation with this. Unfortunately, the eBayers don't sell a knock-off diffusion panel- I might go a DIY route.


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## privatebydesign (May 2, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > As for why the op can't get a catchlight, it is just down to angles, change the angle of your flash head or if you are pointing it up, use the catchlight panel. It has nothing o do with he modifier, just he angles of incidence and reflection.
> ...



Post the pic to illustrate flash, mod and camera angle, but traditionally ETTL will cut the light very quickly when shooting into a mirror.

I rarely use the "softbox" attachment for my Flashbenders, I find I get nicer light by just curling the top edge towards the subject, the curl is the crucial bit, if you just fire it up you will get nothing. The "best" angle for the modifier would be 45º between the flash and subject, and then you would only get catchlights if you are the same amount lower than the eyes than the flash is higher than the eyes. The size of the cathclight will be small if you are ay distance from your subject, but you should be able to get one.


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## privatebydesign (May 2, 2014)

In dynamic situations I'll use a 600EX-RT with a Flashbender and an ST-E3-RT and hold the flash away from me, camera in one hand flash in the other, ungainly but gets the separation. You can achieve the same thing with an off camera cord.


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## sagittariansrock (May 2, 2014)

Quote is modified.



privatebydesign said:


> 1. I find I get nicer light by just curling the top edge towards the subject, the curl is the crucial bit, if you just fire it up you will get nothing.
> 2. The "best" angle for the modifier would be 45º between the flash and subject,
> 3. and then you would only get catchlights if you are the same amount lower than the eyes than the flash is higher than the eyes.
> 4. The size of the cathclight will be small if you are ay distance from your subject, but you should be able to get one.



Very useful tips.
I did curl it forwards. When you say 45 degrees, do you mean turning the flashhead to the front by the 45 degree marker? I know I did 90, and then -15 (because at 90 the flash is slightly forward, and at -15 it is straight up). I didn't do a more acute angle.
Point no. 3 might be the issue. I did ask the subjects to look up, but that clearly wasn't the solution. I do need to shoot from a lower point than eye level. I heard reading it somewhere that gives a better look.


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## sagittariansrock (May 2, 2014)

So, I think point # 4 was the issue.
I magnified the images and could see the catchlight after all. 
But boy, it is small. Should have remembered that, like a convex mirror, the cornea reflects a much smaller image.
If that is the catchlight with the large flashbender, I wonder what the catchlight panel would do.
FYI, I was about 10 feet from the subject.


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## privatebydesign (May 2, 2014)

Another practical tip, rotate the head 90º so it is short edge to the subject then put the modifier on, this means you can go from landscape to portrait with just a 90º turn of the head. Very simple and quick, it is the main reason I don't use a bracket.


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## sagittariansrock (May 2, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> Another practical tip, rotate the head 90º so it is short edge to the subject then put the modifier on, this means you can go from landscape to portrait with just a 90º turn of the head. Very simple and quick, it is the main reason I don't use a bracket.



Nice one! Thanks, I just tried it out.


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## Marsu42 (May 2, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> Another practical tip, rotate the head 90º so it is short edge to the subject then put the modifier on, this means you can go from landscape to portrait with just a 90º turn of the head. Very simple and quick, it is the main reason I don't use a bracket.



I'm using the "rotate head" method with the demb flip it, works great because it's a very quick setup - there's a description with pictures on their site: http://www.dembflashproducts.com/flipit/positions/ and http://www.dembflashproducts.com/flipit/instructions/

Btw the reason I'm using a bracket is that I can quickly move the flash quickly in the range from bottom right to left for fill and still have both hands free.


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## sagittariansrock (May 2, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Another practical tip, rotate the head 90º so it is short edge to the subject then put the modifier on, this means you can go from landscape to portrait with just a 90º turn of the head. Very simple and quick, it is the main reason I don't use a bracket.
> ...



The flashbender is a bigger, more flexible (literally, LOL) version of the flip-it.


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## Marsu42 (May 2, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:
 

> The flashbender is a bigger, more flexible (literally, LOL) version of the flip-it.



Impressive, yours is bigger than mine :-> ...

I find the large demb version ok, but I'm open to suggestion for a new purchase if it makes a difference. How is the handling of the flexible reflector? Does more area really make a difference since the flash light cone is only so large if it's so near the flash head?


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## sagittariansrock (May 2, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> sagittariansrock said:
> 
> 
> > The flashbender is a bigger, more flexible (literally, LOL) version of the flip-it.
> ...




You saw how small it is at 10 feet (images I posted).
I have to test this with the catchlight panel- but I think that will be even smaller.
The handling is pretty good, folds flat, and I only have the cheap knock-off.
I assume the real thing will be even better made.


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## dlleno (May 2, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:


> Ok, I take back what I said about both the Custom Bracket brackets. While they allow a camera with AS plates to be mounted quickly, they don't have the AS dovetails, so cannot be used on a tripod.
> Do people who use this never use tripods? Why this glaring omission? I understand one can always stick an AS plate at the bottom of the bracket, but that is unnecessarily adding bulk.
> The RRS of course mounts on to the lens plate (or nodal plate) so it maintains the AS dovetail. But it is a bit too pricey and bulky.



yea there's no free lunch. I didn't see this (about the custom brackets) either as I've never used one of these. At least the Newton allows full tripod compatibility -- you just need to use their plate. if that is ok for you then really the Newton is still a viable alternative; compact, foldable etc. 

and it isn't all about the catch light. Its about control of shadows too. . if you're in a situation where you don't have an assistant, you need to use ceiling bounce and/or the bounce card and you just need to rotate the camera 90 degrees and shoot, you don't always have time to fiddle. You want shadows to be diffuse, behind and slightly below the subject especially when there is a wall behind the subject. Some situations may require all of the following: (1) flash height above the lens axis (2) control of ceiling bounce (3) use of the bounce card (4) quick, as in sub 1 second, switch between portrait and landscape, and (5) quick lens changes. 


If one requires tripod use (without removing some proprietary flash plate) then its fair to assume you already have a plate on the camera and you what any new apparatus to use it. Either that, or you (like the Newton) accept that the new apparatus will supply its own AS dovetail plate accommodating both itself and the tripod. 

But if you have all of the above requirements AND you have an existing plate, such as an RRS or Kirk or Wimberly L plate, then options are few. there will be expense and bulk because there has to be some sort of adapter or mechanism to attach the flash apparatus to the existing plate.


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## JustMeOregon (May 2, 2014)

From the pictures that I've seen of the Custom Brackets offerings, it looks like most have 1/4" threaded holes on the bottom where you could easily add an AS dovetail plate if you needed.


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