# No crop on 4K coming in next APS-C DSLR [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 11, 2019)

> The Canon EOS 90D is expected to be announced somewhere around the end of August or early September. All signs point to it being an amalgamation of the EOS 80D and EOS 7D Mark II lines of cameras.
> We have been told that the next APS-C DSLR will shoot 4K from a 32.5mp sensor, and will do so without any sort of “meaningful” crop. So we may be getting the new generation of Canon sensors with line skipping or pixel binning for video work.
> Other than that, there’s nothing really new to report about the EOS 90D. You can check out the rumoured spec list for the EOS 90D here.
> *update* I added pixel binning as a possibility for Canon in getting rid of the heavy crop they currently have on their ILC still cameras for 4K video.



Continue reading...


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## amorse (Jun 11, 2019)

Only *two* card slots? Why not 6K no crop?!! DOA. /s

But in all seriousness, I'll watch this one closely - it may make a fair few suggestions on what to expect from future bodies from Canon.


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## criscokkat (Jun 11, 2019)

amorse said:


> Only *two* card slots? Why not 6K no crop?!! DOA. /s
> 
> But in all seriousness, I'll watch this one closely - it may make a fair few suggestions on what to expect from future bodies from Canon.


If it can do 32.5 megapixels with no crop, it can probably output fast enough for real time focus tracking with high speed FPS in a mirrorless R body.

I think the possibility of a 90d being a 7d like optical viewfinder camera and the 7d replacement being a aps-c R mount mirrorless camera is looking more and more likely. One hits the consumers and one is focused on the pros and semi pros that use the 7dii for sports.


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## bbb34 (Jun 11, 2019)

no-crop factor: 1.6


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## LDS (Jun 11, 2019)

I would change model numbering, I would call it the 8D, to be read ODD....


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## Quarkcharmed (Jun 11, 2019)

no meaningful crop?


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## Cryve (Jun 11, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> If it can do 32.5 megapixels with no crop, it can probably output fast enough for real time focus tracking with high speed FPS in a mirrorless R body.
> 
> I think the possibility of a 90d being a 7d like optical viewfinder camera and the 7d replacement being a aps-c R mount mirrorless camera is looking more and more likely. One hits the consumers and one is focused on the pros and semi pros that use the 7dii for sports.


do we know if there is a connection between linescipping / no crop in video and processor power?

if yes we would have more evidence for the rumored 10 fps and perhaps good focussing.


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## addola (Jun 11, 2019)

Cryve said:


> do we know if there is a connection between linescipping / no crop in video and processor power?
> 
> if yes we would have more evidence for the rumored 10 fps and perhaps good focussing.



The rumored specs mentioned "Dual DIGIC8" processing, so I am going to guess that there's enough processing power for 10fps photos, and uncropped 4K video.


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## victorshikhman (Jun 11, 2019)

If the 90D specs are true, whoever does product segmentation at Canon needs to have cardiac function tests daily and be placed on suicide watch until product release. Dual Digic 8, dual card slots, eye detect AF in live view, no crop 4k... All this would be in direct competition with flagship cameras. It simply goes against how Canon has done business since the 5D Mark II. We are much more likely to be disappointed than not. That said, if you've been considering an upgrade, definitely worth waiting to see what happens.


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## crazyrunner33 (Jun 11, 2019)

Cryve said:


> do we know if there is a connection between linescipping / no crop in video and processor power?
> 
> if yes we would have more evidence for the rumored 10 fps and perhaps good focussing.



Line skipping on a 32 megapixel sensor would equal sampling around every other row, just 8 megapixels. It'll probably use some sort of binning of those choices of pixels for the bayer pattern. It's less processor intensive, but the quality isn't as good. It won't be as much of an issue like it was on the on the 1080 line skipping Canon cameras, most of which were capturing barely 700 lines.

Other cameras like the A7 III/Z6 oversample the sensor, the sensor read out and processor is fast enough to read every pixel and renders that to 4K. The higher megapixel A7R III/Z7 cameras use line skipping, the video doesn't hold up well in low light.

I'd expect a large fps bump and other improvements once Canon is able to oversample.


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## cpreston (Jun 11, 2019)

Beware what you ask for. If Canon just throws in line skipping to give people their "uncropped" 4K, the image is going to be worse than any current Canon full frame camera, all of which have a similar sensor crop size. Pixel binning won't be much better.


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## cpreston (Jun 11, 2019)

crazyrunner33 said:


> It won't be as much of an issue like it was on the on the 1080 line skipping Canon cameras, most of which were capturing barely 700 lines.



Without oversampling, Canon's 4K has the same lack resolution as the old 1080p. It might just as well be output as 2.7K. The real problem with line skipping is the aliasing and moire. I would take a sensor crop over line skipping.


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## Del Paso (Jun 11, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> no meaningful crop?
> 
> View attachment 185033


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## unfocused (Jun 11, 2019)

victorshikhman said:


> ... All this would be in direct competition with flagship cameras. It simply goes against how Canon has done business since the 5D Mark II...



It would be entirely consistent with the 7D series. The original 7D specs were better than the 5DII in many respects and the 7DII offered many of the features/functions of the 1DX in a package that was a fraction of the cost. It's not surprising that Canon may be offering these features in a APS-C camera, but that it is offering them in the XXD line. Unfortunately, each leaked feature seems to be another nail in the 7D coffin.


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## slclick (Jun 11, 2019)

unfocused said:


> It would be entirely consistent with the 7D series. The original 7D specs were better than the 5DII in many respects and the 7DII offered many of the features/functions of the 1DX in a package that was a fraction of the cost. It's not surprising that Canon may be offering these features in a APS-C camera, but that it is offering them in the XXD line. Unfortunately, each leaked feature seems to be another nail in the 7D coffin.


The 6D and 5D lines demise are both up for debate as well. I'm starting to wonder if there will be a new lower end model which will supersede the 5D3 specs anytime soon. A 6D3 could easily but that's hardly in the near future, let alone future. It's a curious time for the various Canon prosumer models.


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## jvillain (Jun 11, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Unfortunately, each leaked feature seems to be another nail in the 7D coffin.


The real nail in 7D is the big Sony lenses all over youtube today.


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## jvillain (Jun 11, 2019)

I would rather have 4K 120 than 4K FF.


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## justawriter (Jun 11, 2019)

I think Canon would be better off retaining the 7D branding and announce the end of the X0D line. If they feel the need to fill the segment below that, create something like a "Rebel Pro." As has been discussed before, the 7D market is more likely to invest more in lenses and other goodies than lower end camera buyers.


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## NeverPlayMonopoly (Jun 11, 2019)

Did the 80d just grossly outsell the 7d line?


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## Hector1970 (Jun 11, 2019)

Labelling it a 90D sounds very uninspiring. If its just a badge I'd have thought 7DIII would be a more attractive moniker. Could be the same camera either way.
10FPS would be a huge disappointment to me. Even 11FPS would show some progress.
The big weak point for me on the 7DII was it's ISO performance. 
It wasn't great when it came out and is pretty disappointing at this stage.
It will be interesting to see what progress Canon have made in the mean time.
The 7DII focusing I think is still very respectable. 
It would be great if they could bring some intelligence to it in terms of staying locked onto a subject (BIF etc)


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## mb66energy (Jun 11, 2019)

I am a little bit confused: A camera with great video functionality and quality with OVF / display but no EVF? I would expect that in a camera which has at least the EVF or both EVF AND OVF which is possible but imo really expensive except you have transparent oled displays which do not disturb the OVF but light up in the "mirror up state". That would be a really cool thing.


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## KenLLL (Jun 11, 2019)

If it uses pixel binning or line skipping, count me out. I would much rather deal with the crop factor in favor of cleaner and sharper images. If it downsamples, consider me intrigued.


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## preppyak (Jun 11, 2019)

addola said:


> The rumored specs mentioned "Dual DIGIC8" processing, so I am going to guess that there's enough processing power for 10fps photos, and uncropped 4K video.


Rumored specs also have Canon doing 4k/60 in a DSLR for the first time since the 1DXII, which just 100% isnt happening...especially since that only does it with a 1.3 crop. Canon segments products in a way that a camera 1/4 the price wont have some major improvement randomly.


NeverPlayMonopoly said:


> Did the 80d just grossly outsell the 7d line?


I imagine so. As the 60D probably outsold the original 7D as well. The 7D line is great for those who need the ruggedness or speed...but for the vast majority of users things like the flip out screen and 40% price savings make the XXD line make more sense. And just like I imagine the 6DII tanked in comaprison to the 6D...the 7DII didnt really improve anything on the sensor side. Wasnt til the 80D that Canon finally came to modernity on that front.

And I imagine Canon would rather see 7D users end up in the 1D line instead.


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## BillB (Jun 11, 2019)

mb66energy said:


> I am a little bit confused: A camera with great video functionality and quality with OVF / display but no EVF? I would expect that in a camera which has at least the EVF or both EVF AND OVF which is possible but imo really expensive except you have transparent oled displays which do not disturb the OVF but light up in the "mirror up state". That would be a really cool thing.


It does seem a little odd to boost video performance levels starting with an aps-c DSLR at this point, but I guess they have to start somewhere. I am wondering whether some of the rumored spec levels are getting mixed up between the "90D" and the next R camera in the pipeline. Then there is a good chance that some of the rumored specs are just wrong.


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## Daner (Jun 11, 2019)

The spread in price points does not suggest to me that 7D line sales have ever effectively poached potential 1D line customers, but having owned a 7D II and currently owning a 5DIV I can see the utility of using a 7D as a second body for 5D or 1D users to get more apparent reach out of long lenses. I would be very interested in adding a 7DIII or 90D, depending on the feature set that actually makes it to market.




preppyak said:


> Rumored specs also have Canon doing 4k/60 in a DSLR for the first time since the 1DXII, which just 100% isnt happening...especially since that only does it with a 1.3 crop. Canon segments products in a way that a camera 1/4 the price wont have some major improvement randomly.
> I imagine so. As the 60D probably outsold the original 7D as well. The 7D line is great for those who need the ruggedness or speed...but for the vast majority of users things like the flip out screen and 40% price savings make the XXD line make more sense. And I imagine Canon would rather see 7D users end up in the 1D line instead.


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## Adelino (Jun 11, 2019)

Hector1970 said:


> Labelling it a 90D sounds very uninspiring. If its just a badge I'd have thought 7DIII would be a more attractive moniker. Could be the same camera either way.


It may be a matter of 'toughness" as a 7D series has to be tank like where an improved XX series could just have some improvement in weather sealing, the 7D is just way overbuilt for 98% of users. I randomly selected that 98% figure of course ;-)


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## Avenger 2.0 (Jun 11, 2019)

BillB said:


> It does seem a little odd to boost video performance levels starting with an aps-c DSLR at this point, but I guess they have to start somewhere. I am wondering whether some of the rumored spec levels are getting mixed up between the "90D" and the next R camera in the pipeline. Then there is a good chance that some of the rumored specs are just wrong.


Don't worry, they'll probably find a way to limit or disable a current 80D feature in the 90D.


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## bichex (Jun 11, 2019)

I do not make video but I guess it's good to have video without crop. Some suggest that this camera will replace the current 7D and it will be better, I do not believe at all, the rumors indicate that the 7D line will be canceled and this new camera will be a replacement for the 80D. Unless you have a joystick and a great AF system, I do not see this as useful. If canon thinks that users of 7D will go to line 1D, it will not be my case. I'll go the other way. Hard times to buy and even more difficult for companies. Some bad decisions can cost even a leading company. It seems and many say that the highest profits are in the lines of entry, rebels and M system, I think that is precisely the sector most threatened by smartphones.


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## slclick (Jun 11, 2019)

jvillain said:


> The real nail in 7D is the big Sony lenses all over youtube today.


Wrong demographic


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## CanonGuy (Jun 11, 2019)

Here is your non cropped sensor with 1.6 crop factor


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## Cryve (Jun 11, 2019)

the reason they will offer 4k uncroped in a aps-c body first is because of the new sensor. they simply cant with the old ones (or it takes too much processing power). 
i suspect they are gonna roll out the new sensor generation aps-c first and then after that full frame.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 12, 2019)

slclick said:


> Wrong demographic



As a 7DII and 100-400 owner, the new Sony 200-600 is very tempting for me. The 400mm can be often short.


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## slclick (Jun 12, 2019)

blackcoffee17 said:


> As a 7DII and 100-400 owner, the new Sony 200-600 is very tempting for me. The 400mm can be often short.


Sorry, I didn't see that one, I was thinking of the $13,000 prime.


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## crazyrunner33 (Jun 12, 2019)

cpreston said:


> Without oversampling, Canon's 4K has the same lack resolution as the old 1080p. It might just as well be output as 2.7K. The real problem with line skipping is the aliasing and moire. I would take a sensor crop over line skipping.



Correct, but lineskipping on a high enough resolution sensor with the proper binning makes moire not much of an issue. It isn't a noticable issue on the A7R III, Z7 or Hasselblad.


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## tron (Jun 12, 2019)

Oh NO! A crop video would be great for birds. Canon can we please have a crop mode? (You know how it is done!)


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## crazyrunner33 (Jun 12, 2019)

tron said:


> Oh NO! A crop video would be great for birds. Canon can we please have a crop mode? (You know how it is done!)



If you want a crop mode, look to the T3i. It was the first to do it with center crop 1080 and even center crop 480.


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## stevelee (Jun 12, 2019)

I used to be conversant with digital signal processing of audio, and understood a lot of the math. I don’t remember a lot of what I knew 25 years ago, but I remember that many things were counterintuitive. That makes me skeptical of obvious ways of thinking about how best to convert sensor data to video. Without seeing some mathematical rationale, I can’t get too excited about the differences. I’m sure that there are folks at Adobe who understand these things, and see no reason why Canon et. al. would not also have such folks. Then come in issues of practical implementation.


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## Antono Refa (Jun 12, 2019)

KenLLL said:


> If it uses pixel binning or line skipping, count me out. I would much rather deal with the crop factor in favor of cleaner and sharper images. If it downsamples, consider me intrigued.



What's the difference, at least in practice, between binning and downsampling?


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## Ozarker (Jun 12, 2019)

victorshikhman said:


> If the 90D specs are true, whoever does product segmentation at Canon needs to have cardiac function tests daily and be placed on suicide watch until product release. Dual Digic 8, dual card slots, eye detect AF in live view, no crop 4k... All this would be in direct competition with flagship cameras. It simply goes against how Canon has done business since the 5D Mark II. We are much more likely to be disappointed than not. That said, if you've been considering an upgrade, definitely worth waiting to see what happens.


Not in competition with the flagship. Still a crop sensor. Tech trickles "up" very often (DPAF, touch screens, etc.)


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## Pape (Jun 12, 2019)

Yep crop sport camera is special tool ,when needing extreme reach and best fast focus,there isnt any full frame competitior. if there would price would be 10k


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## siegsAR (Jun 12, 2019)

No crop 4K30 is not so much to ask. BUT I am waiting for this on the EOS M mount.
If this 90D rumors turn out to be true I might go back shooting w/ a DSLR, else I'm jumping fences.


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## Pape (Jun 12, 2019)

i believe they do both 90D and M5ii and one unknown R
if using same sensor ,could have same specs.


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 12, 2019)

siegsAR said:


> If this 90D rumors turn out to be true I might go back shooting w/ a DSLR, else I'm jumping fences.



So no matter what you’re buying something 

#perfectconsumer


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## Chaitanya (Jun 12, 2019)

I personally dont care about crop mode in video as a macro shooter its a good thing for me as long as the video doesnt have too much rolling shutter its perfectly fine.


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## CanoKnight (Jun 12, 2019)

Wow. I was initially tempted to write something sarcastic, but if this is true (4k/60, 1080/>=120, no crop of the 1.6x) I can see myself doing the unthinkable. I might actually (gasp) buy another Canon camera ! As much as I love my incredible Panasonic S1 for video, it's AF is not the best and this could be a great companion / compliment to it for all things motion. But I am not holding out hope. I mean they have their precious little cine EOS to protect, right ?


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## koenkooi (Jun 12, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> I personally dont care about crop mode in video as a macro shooter its a good thing for me as long as the video doesnt have too much rolling shutter its perfectly fine.



On the M50 with the 28mm macro DPAF does a very nice job on autofocus in HD, so I hope that will keep an option to crop it _and_ allow DPAF.


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## hollybush (Jun 12, 2019)

Antono Refa said:


> What's the difference, at least in practice, between binning and downsampling?



Both lineskipping and binning are objectively incorrect designs because they change the sampling from what the antialiasing filter was designed for.

The purpose of the antialiasing filter is to spread light across adjacent pixels so that the camera does not see things that are not there. It has to be designed for that particular pixel pitch (so that it blurs into the next pixel, and not the next 2). When you introduce line skipping with video the antialiasing filter that was there for stills doesn't work. Binning is no better regarding aliasing, because it's still sampling at the same lower spatial frequency as lineskipping; its only advantage over lineskipping is lower noise.

With downsampling, the camera is taking the antialiased data and then interpolating between those values to find the correct value.

If a camera uses lineskipping, one of two things is true: (i) the engineers did not understand sampling theory, or (ii) the maker did not want to spend the money to put a decent processor in the camera. Either way, I wouldn't buy such a camera. If Sony could put true downsampling in the original RX10, it should be in a 2019 Canon 7D successor.


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## koenkooi (Jun 12, 2019)

hollybush said:


> [..]
> If a camera uses lineskipping, one of two things is true: (i) the engineers did not understand sampling theory, or (ii) the maker did not want to spend the money to put a decent processor in the camera. [..]



You're forgetting a third possible reason: the sensor doesn't have a fast enough read out.


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## tron (Jun 12, 2019)

crazyrunner33 said:


> If you want a crop mode, look to the T3i. It was the first to do it with center crop 1080 and even center crop 480.


I was half-joking but on the serious side my 5DIV does crop at 4K so there is that if it is needed. It would be nice to have it as an option but I have no experience in video. I only do photos but for a 5 min video with tripod and 7DII and 500II on it (Great crested grebes building their nest).


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## ozturert (Jun 12, 2019)

Rolling shutter is to be quite bad, then. Everyone is after no-crop 4K but those cameras have quite bad rolling shutter (like Sony A6X00 series).


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## tron (Jun 12, 2019)

I wonder will it have a 200K capable shutter?


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## Michael Clark (Jun 12, 2019)

slclick said:


> The 6D and 5D lines demise are both up for debate as well. I'm starting to wonder if there will be a new lower end model which will supersede the 5D3 specs anytime soon. A 6D3 could easily but that's hardly in the near future, let alone future. It's a curious time for the various Canon prosumer models.



The 6D Mark II already more or less matches the 5D Mark III in terms of specs other than 1/4000 vs. 1/8000 shortest Tv and 1/180 vs. 1/200 X-sync.


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## padam (Jun 12, 2019)

ozturert said:


> Rolling shutter is to be quite bad, then. Everyone is after no-crop 4K but those cameras have quite bad rolling shutter (like Sony A6X00 series).


If it is not downsampled from 32MP (cropped to 16:9) then it might remain acceptable and this is a new generation sensor with faster readout, Sony still uses old sensors in their APS-C cameras (X-T3 or X-T30 use a new one, so rolling shutter is less)


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## Michael Clark (Jun 12, 2019)

NeverPlayMonopoly said:


> Did the 80d just grossly outsell the 7d line?



It probably has lately.

The 7D Mark II was released in late 2014 and those who wanted one have either long since bought them or have been waiting for the last two years to see what the replacement will look like. Or bought a Nikon D500.

The 80D was released in 2016 so it's two years "younger" and waiting to see what would replace it probably only started affecting sales numbers in the past few months.

There's also the perception that the 80D has a "better" sensor because it has more dynamic range at low ISO and too many reviewers are obsessed with maximum DR, which only happens for any camera at base ISO. Same thing with DxO Mark, which seems to place a lot more weight on DR at base ISO than on signal to noise ratio for high ISO/low light performance for their overall composite scores.

At ISO 1600 and ISO 3200, where many 7D Mark II users live if they shoot night/indoor sports, the 7D Mark II actually slightly outperforms the 80D in terms of DR and SNR.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 12, 2019)

Hector1970 said:


> Labelling it a 90D sounds very uninspiring. If its just a badge I'd have thought 7DIII would be a more attractive moniker. Could be the same camera either way.
> 10FPS would be a huge disappointment to me. Even 11FPS would show some progress.
> The big weak point for me on the 7DII was it's ISO performance.
> It wasn't great when it came out and is pretty disappointing at this stage.
> ...




The 7D Mark II has slightly better DR and SNR than the 80D at ISO 1600 and ISO 3200. It's only at low ISO that the 80D has better DR. No APS-C sensor is going to match a FF sensor from the same generation of technology for high ISO/low light performance.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 12, 2019)

preppyak said:


> Rumored specs also have Canon doing 4k/60 in a DSLR for the first time since the 1DXII, which just 100% isnt happening...especially since that only does it with a 1.3 crop. Canon segments products in a way that a camera 1/4 the price wont have some major improvement randomly.
> I imagine so. As the 60D probably outsold the original 7D as well. The 7D line is great for those who need the ruggedness or speed...but for the vast majority of users things like the flip out screen and 40% price savings make the XXD line make more sense. And just like I imagine the 6DII tanked in comaprison to the 6D...the 7DII didnt really improve anything on the sensor side. Wasnt til the 80D that Canon finally came to modernity on that front.
> 
> And I imagine Canon would rather see 7D users end up in the 1D line instead.



The sensor in my 7D Mark II is noticeably better than the sensor in my 7D at anything above ISO 800. It's not close.

The 80D sensor has better DR at low ISO, but the sensor in the 7D Mark II is slightly better at ISO 1600 and ISO 3200 and up where most sports shooters live. The 7D is about the same in terms of DR at ISO 100-400, but falls away at ISO 1600 and higher, just as the 80D does.






When differences in actual ISO for the same ISO settings are accounted for, the 7D Mark II has better SNR than the 80D which has slightly better or equal SNR than the 7D across the entire ISO range:


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## Michael Clark (Jun 12, 2019)

tron said:


> I wonder will it have a 200K capable shutter?



It might be capable, but it probably won't be rated at 200,000. Based on the user submitted data at Oleg Kikin's Shutter Life Database (click site map to see the full camera model list), there aren't enough 80D users who even care about shutter life, much less have shot more than 100K frames to give a statistically significant sample. On the other hand, a lot more 7D Mark II shooters report high frame counts.


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## espressino (Jun 12, 2019)

justawriter said:


> I think Canon would be better off retaining the 7D branding and announce the end of the X0D line. If they feel the need to fill the segment below that, create something like a "Rebel Pro." As has been discussed before, the 7D market is more likely to invest more in lenses and other goodies than lower end camera buyers.


Didn't they introduce that Rebel Pro with the 77D/800D? Forum users and reviewers dismissed it, but it seems to be quite popular.


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## BillB (Jun 12, 2019)

victorshikhman said:


> If the 90D specs are true, whoever does product segmentation at Canon needs to have cardiac function tests daily and be placed on suicide watch until product release. Dual Digic 8, dual card slots, eye detect AF in live view, no crop 4k... All this would be in direct competition with flagship cameras. It simply goes against how Canon has done business since the 5D Mark II. We are much more likely to be disappointed than not. That said, if you've been considering an upgrade, definitely worth waiting to see what happens.


Canon has often introduced features below the flagship level. In the Canon world new features have often trickled up as well as trickled down. Canon may or may not have a product segmentation strategy, but it doesn't always apply to how Canon introduces new features in its camera line.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jun 12, 2019)

BillB said:


> Canon has often introduced features below the flagship level. In the Canon world new features have often trickled up as well as trickled down. Canon may or may not have a product segmentation strategy, but it doesn't always apply to how Canon introduces new features in its camera line.


So in a few words, we know nothing and Canon can do basically anything.


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## syder (Jun 12, 2019)

CanoKnight said:


> Wow. I was initially tempted to write something sarcastic, but if this is true (4k/60, 1080/>=120, no crop of the 1.6x) I can see myself doing the unthinkable. I might actually (gasp) buy another Canon camera ! As much as I love my incredible Panasonic S1 for video, it's AF is not the best and this could be a great companion / compliment to it for all things motion. But I am not holding out hope. I mean they have their precious little cine EOS to protect, right ?



I almost thought you weren't going to say something sarcastic!

But really... To compete with the C200 this would need to do 4k60p RAW. And have 10 stops of built in ND. And built in XLRs. And proper outputs. And handle like a videocamera. Etc etc.

This might be a passable B cam or something to throw on a gimbal, but no-one in the market for a Cinema camera is going to opt for one of these instead.


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## BillB (Jun 12, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> So in a few words, we know nothing and Canon can do basically anything.


Reading some animal bones might get you as far as guessing based on CR1 rumors and simplistic notions of Canon's corporate strategy


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## Philrp (Jun 12, 2019)

Pape said:


> i believe they do both 90D and M5ii and one unknown R
> if using same sensor ,could have same specs.



I'm expecting the same tech in the 90D, the M5II and a crop sensor RF mount camera


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## stevelee (Jun 12, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> It might be capable, but it probably won't be rated at 200,000. Based on the user submitted data at Oleg Kikin's Shutter Life Database (click site map to see the full camera model list), there aren't enough 80D users who even care about shutter life, much less have shot more than 100K frames to give a statistically significant sample. On the other hand, a lot more 7D Mark II shooters report high frame counts.


Wouldn't the difference in the way they are used account for some of that? People shooting the 7D II would tend to use multiple shots per shutter button push than would those using the 80D, right? That would be on top of shooting in situations where you take many more pictures, as in sports.


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## tron (Jun 12, 2019)

If the 90D shoots at 10fps then it had better have the same typical shutter life as 7DII has (which also shoots at 10fps!)


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## victorshikhman (Jun 12, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> It might be capable, but it probably won't be rated at 200,000. Based on the user submitted data at Oleg Kikin's Shutter Life Database (click site map to see the full camera model list), there aren't enough 80D users who even care about shutter life, much less have shot more than 100K frames to give a statistically significant sample. On the other hand, a lot more 7D Mark II shooters report high frame counts.


Not to besmirch 7D users, but "spray and pray" is a mainstay of action and wildlife shooting, so those users would be more sensitive to shutter life. So far, I've averaged around 1000 images per 3-5 day vacation on my 80D, and how many of those can I take in a year? For real estate, food, automotive work, etc. it's all about the composition, three shots at most per subject to extend dynamic range and maybe three groups of three just to give yourself some wiggle room in post or change the perspective. It would take me years to approach 200k shutter actuations. I've never shot a wedding, but I assume 2-3k photos is an upper limit for how many shots you can realistically compose during a 3-4 hour ceremony (without spray and pray).


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## jvillain (Jun 12, 2019)

ozturert said:


> Rolling shutter is to be quite bad, then. Everyone is after no-crop 4K but those cameras have quite bad rolling shutter (like Sony A6X00 series).



Rolling shutter on the R with it's crop in 4K is pretty rancid so I sure hope what ever is coming is going to address that.


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## cpreston (Jun 12, 2019)

Antono Refa said:


> What's the difference, at least in practice, between binning and downsampling?



With the cinema series, Canon actually uses a 4K sensor to create the 2K image. In this case, the downsampling is very straightforward and less processor intensive as it just uses the 4X extra pixels of the sensor to produce the four sets of color information to create the debayered 2K video. As far as I can tell, the EOS-R uses the exact same technique to create its 1080p cropped recording from its "4K" sensor crop. Ultimately, I think Canon is intending to just jump to an 8K sensor for an easily downsampled 4K image rather than design a chip that can interpolate a downsampled 4K image from something like a 30MP sensor


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## sulla (Jun 12, 2019)

with a resolution of 33,1776 megapixels Canon could do a 7680 x 4320 px sensor an if Canon can do a 2-line 2-row readout thus combine 4 sensor pixels into one video pixel they could get 4K (3840 × 2160) video resolution form the full sensor, without extra crop. no need for line skipping. stills could be shot with 33MP.


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## bhf3737 (Jun 12, 2019)

hollybush said:


> Both lineskipping and binning are objectively incorrect designs because they change the sampling from what the antialiasing filter was designed for.
> 
> The purpose of the antialiasing filter is to spread light across adjacent pixels so that the camera does not see things that are not there. It has to be designed for that particular pixel pitch (so that it blurs into the next pixel, and not the next 2). When you introduce line skipping with video the antialiasing filter that was there for stills doesn't work. Binning is no better regarding aliasing, because it's still sampling at the same lower spatial frequency as lineskipping; its only advantage over lineskipping is lower noise.
> 
> ...


I am afraid the explanation provided is incorrect.
There are currently 4 methods to process video signal in camera: 
1) pixel binning; 2) line skipping; 3) oversampling; 4) cropping. 
In signal processing theory, oversampling (i.e. getting more samples from a signal, as in Nyquest theorem) introduces unwanted artifacts and aliasing. These two need to be filtered with a Low Pass filter. So you may end up with better noise control, at the expense of slightly more blurred picture. Oversampling needs more processing power that may be manifested by reduced battery life and more heat generation. 
There is no objectively right or wrong design and engineers do understand the sampling theory. 
Design here is an engineering decision for camera manufacturers to reach a compromise between the sample size, crop factor, sensor read-out speed, processing power, battery capacity and heat management. Some manufacturers prefer to go for oversampling (S1?), the others may go for pixel binning (Z7?), line skipping (A7Riii?) and cropping (EOS-R?) or a combination of them. So far, no camera manufacturer has come up with a technology which is a clear winner here.


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## Ozarker (Jun 12, 2019)

CanoKnight said:


> Wow. I was initially tempted to write something sarcastic, but if this is true (4k/60, 1080/>=120, no crop of the 1.6x) I can see myself doing the unthinkable. I might actually (gasp) buy another Canon camera ! As much as I love my incredible Panasonic S1 for video, it's AF is not the best and this could be a great companion / compliment to it for all things motion. But I am not holding out hope. I mean they have their precious little cine EOS to protect, right ?


Yes! People looking at one of Canon's Cinema cameras for production works are absolutely also looking at crop sensor APSC cameras to do the same work. A 90D is a real threat to that line. (Sarcastic on my part.) Unbelievable.


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## digigal (Jun 13, 2019)

stevelee said:


> Wouldn't the difference in the way they are used account for some of that? People shooting the 7D II would tend to use multiple shots per shutter button push than would those using the 80D, right? That would be on top of shooting in situations where you take many more pictures, as in sports.


I bought my 7DMII the minute it came out to replace my 7D and have used it to take the overwhelming majority of my pictures--99% (some limited IR with converted M3 and some landscapes with an M5). It's been to Africa innumerable times; the polar regions both North and South innumerable times, and points in-between and now the old warhorse has >380,000 clicks although it's rated for only 200,00. Yes, it's definitely living on borrowed time and Canon has certainly given me more than my money's worth on this camera--only cleaning has been needed. Bought a brand new one to tide me over until I see what Canon decides and what Sony continues to throw out. Now have the R which I tend to substitute for lower light situations and less fast action situations but it still is not as comfortable as holding the 7DMII with a long lens on it. Learning how to shoot to the right (underexposing is deadly with the 7D) goes a long way in improving the results; sometimes you're just stuck with no light and that's when the animals show up and do their thing--that's nature. But for me--an ancient, little old lady--still trying to do wildlife in many out of the way places I have to have equipment I can handle that provides the reach I need and the 7DMII + 100-400 has done that at the trade off of the noisy file and low light limitations. I just hope Canon continues to offer this (or a better crop) option to me (or a full frame will high pixel count, fast focus, and at least a 5-6 frame rate). I just hate to have to learn a whole new system at this point in my life.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 13, 2019)

stevelee said:


> Wouldn't the difference in the way they are used account for some of that? People shooting the 7D II would tend to use multiple shots per shutter button push than would those using the 80D, right? That would be on top of shooting in situations where you take many more pictures, as in sports.



Absolutely. But anyone who thinks such shooters are going to accept the "90D" as a replacement for the 7D Mark II if it only has a 100,000 actuation shutter rating have no idea what such shooters expect. Especially when the Nikon D500 is right there with the 7D Mark II in terms of shutter life.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 13, 2019)

espressino said:


> Didn't they introduce that Rebel Pro with the 77D/800D? Forum users and reviewers dismissed it, but it seems to be quite popular.



They actually introduced it with the Rebel T6s/760D that was the "Rebel Semi-Pro" version of the Rebel T6i/750D. When they replaced both of them, the 77D is effectively the "Rebel T7s/810D" to the Rebel T7i/800D.


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## hollybush (Jun 13, 2019)

bhf3737 said:


> ... as in Nyquest theorem ...



It's spelled "Nyquist".



> These two need to be filtered with a Low Pass filter.



Presumably you mean binning and line skipping. Well, yes, they do. That's also called the antialiasing filter (it passes lower spatial frequencies), and is usually a physical layer in front of the sensor. (We'll leave out Pentax's technology where they do it by precisely shaking the sensor to induce blur; that solves the problem but Canon don't use this system.) The trouble comes when you also want to use the camera to take still pictures at a higher resolution than video. If you pick a spatial frequency for your low pass filter suitable for stills, it doesn't work with video, and if you pick one for video it blurs stills badly. Because it's a physical filter, you can't change the frequency once it's in the camera.



> So you may end up with better noise control, at the expense of slightly more blurred picture.



It's a bit of a stretch classifying aliasing artifacts as noise, especially when replying to my post where I was talking about (mainly shot) noise in relation to the noise difference between lineskipping and binning. To be clear: binning will have less such noise, simply because all the photons landing on all the pixels are counted, whereas with lineskipping the photons that land on the pixels that were skipped are not counted.



> Some manufacturers prefer to go for oversampling (S1?), the others may go for pixel binning (Z7?), line skipping (A7Riii?) and cropping (EOS-R?) or a combination of them. So far, no camera manufacturer has come up with a technology which is a clear winner here.



I don't think the Z7 or A7rIII have antialiasing filters at all, so lineskipping and pixel binning are no different from downsampling: there'll always be aliasing, no matter what you do. Since Canon have always put antialiasing filters in their 7 series, such cameras are not relevant to the discussion here.

I gave an example of a camera that is a clear winner in my original post: the Sony RX10. IIRC the A7S also downsamples from a sensor with an antialiasing filter.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 13, 2019)

victorshikhman said:


> Not to besmirch 7D users, but "spray and pray" is a mainstay of action and wildlife shooting, so those users would be more sensitive to shutter life. So far, I've averaged around 1000 images per 3-5 day vacation on my 80D, and how many of those can I take in a year? For real estate, food, automotive work, etc. it's all about the composition, three shots at most per subject to extend dynamic range and maybe three groups of three just to give yourself some wiggle room in post or change the perspective. It would take me years to approach 200k shutter actuations. I've never shot a wedding, but I assume 2-3k photos is an upper limit for how many shots you can realistically compose during a 3-4 hour ceremony (without spray and pray).



Wedding ceremonies are typically over in a half hour or less, depending on how many people have to be escorted in one at a time before the bride. It's the before and after ceremony shoots that push up the frame count. In addition to 2-3 hours of "getting ready" shoots for both the bride and her attendants and the groom/groomsmen, a "first look" mini-shoot, and the actual ceremony, many couples now do what is effectively a private post-ceremony shoot with the bride/groom for an hour or more after the group photos have been taken, sometimes at a different venue, and before the party gets cranked up at a third or fourth venue that may be all the way across a large metro area. And the parties can go well into the night. It's not hard at all to shoot well over 2,000K frames over 8-10-12-14 hours for a full service wedding shoot. Of course that load is being spread over two or three bodies and multiple shooters at least for some of those portions.

But neither an 80D nor 7D Mark II type camera is the ideal tool for that. FF cameras such as the 5D Mark IV or 1D X Mark II are what those folks are using.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 13, 2019)

victorshikhman said:


> Not to besmirch 7D users, but "spray and pray" is a mainstay of action and wildlife shooting, so those users would be more sensitive to shutter life. So far, I've averaged around 1000 images per 3-5 day vacation on my 80D, and how many of those can I take in a year? For real estate, food, automotive work, etc. it's all about the composition, three shots at most per subject to extend dynamic range and maybe three groups of three just to give yourself some wiggle room in post or change the perspective. It would take me years to approach 200k shutter actuations. I've never shot a wedding, but I assume 2-3k photos is an upper limit for how many shots you can realistically compose during a 3-4 hour ceremony (without spray and pray).




Just because someone shoots several thousand frames at an event over a number of hours doesn't mean one is indiscriminately "spraying and praying."

I've shot marching band competitions where there was a different band every 15-20 minutes for hours on end. The day starts out with the smaller groups, but by the end you had 8 minutes (480 seconds) or so - the rest of the 15-20 minutes is between each performance while one group leaves and the next comes in - to try and get 2-3 sellable frames of as many as you could of the 200-250 kids on the field at one time.

It's the same thing when shooting scholastic sports. Large schools may play 50+ different kids over the course of 70-80 plays in a high school football game, and every parent who can't find several dozen of their child (who only made it into the game for one four-down series) to choose from wants to know "Why didn't you take any pictures of my kid?" And then there are the cheerleader moms who think you are there to spend the entire evening shooting hundreds of photos of their little princesses...

There are also the shooters who set up on popular "touring roads", such as an 11-mile section of US 129 near Deal's Gap,TN in The great Smoky Mountains National Park. The road is known as "The Tail of the Dragon." Sports car clubs and motorcycle clubs and enthusiasts come from all over just to ride it. During high summer, several thousand vehicles will travel over it each day. There are multiple companies that set up at various scenic curves and shoot every single vehicle that passes, post low res watermarked proofs of each frame online, and sell digital downloads, prints, mugs, keychains, etc...

This guy posted around 3,000 frames for 6/8/2019.
This company posted 2,300 frames on 6/8/2019, including over 1,100 in barely an hour as some type of bicycle rally/race went by.
There's also this company on the same 11-mile stretch of road.


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## crazyrunner33 (Jun 13, 2019)

tron said:


> I was half-joking but on the serious side my 5DIV does crop at 4K so there is that if it is needed. It would be nice to have it as an option but I have no experience in video. I only do photos but for a 5 min video with tripod and 7DII and 500II on it (Great crested grebes building their nest).



Well played, sir. There should be an option for it in the future. 

A lot of the Sony sensor based cameras offer the option to switch between full frame and crop 4K. The Z6 and Z7 are a good preview of that. The Z6 oversamples for a nice 4K image in full frame mode while the Z7 uses a less appealing line skipping. They both have full readout 4K modes that are cropped like the 5D Mark IV. For the Z7, the full readout is better than the line skipping, but the low light for the Z6 isn't as good in the crop mode as it is in the oversampled full frame. 

It wouldn't surprise me if someday we have a digital zoom like on cell phone, cropping in until the full readout of 4k. On the future 50-100 mp sensors, that can be quite a bit.


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## Andyx01 (Jun 13, 2019)

39.3MP would make much more sense: 7680 x 5120

(For some reason 39.3 would likely become 39.5 to account for whatever overhead they seem to pad into these MP calculations.)

7680 / 2 = 3840

5120 / 2 = 2560

2560 adjusted for aspect ratio compliance = 2160


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## ashmadux (Jun 14, 2019)

*N.G.H.*

From Canon? Not a chance in hell this will happen.

Let us all begin to count the ways this body will be inferior to the mighty d500.

Then again , there shoulnt be another body even close to its class in aspc.

but...this is Canon. It will be borked somehow.


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## ozturert (Jun 14, 2019)

jvillain said:


> Rolling shutter on the R with it's crop in 4K is pretty rancid so I sure hope what ever is coming is going to address that.


Agreed. Also electronic shutter for photography causes skewed edges of moving subjects. Definitely (and as expected) worse than A9 and EM1 II, but also slightly worse than A7III.


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## Dragon (Jun 14, 2019)

The math doesn't work for line skipping or pixel binning with a 32.5 MP 3:2 sensor. If it has no significant crop, expect a new Digic that can do scaling along with a 30fps readout speed of at least the 16:9 portion of the sensor. Those would both be big steps forward and consistent with what a 7D3 might be expected to do. Note that Canon has both high readout speeds and scaling in the Cinema line, so they have the technology but just haven't applied it to still cameras either to protect the cinema line, or more likely because of power dissipation issues (the Cinema cameras have a cooling fan). It will be interesting to see what changes are in this camera because the M5 mark 2 will likely have many of the same changes. I am guessing we won't see the high res R until 2020, because it will take longer to migrate these changes to FF, so the Astro R sounds like an interesting stand-in as all it needs is very low dark noise (strangely like the 7D2).


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## Michael Clark (Jun 14, 2019)

Andyx01 said:


> 39.3MP would make much more sense: 7680 x 5120
> 
> (For some reason 39.3 would likely become 39.5 to account for whatever overhead they seem to pad into these MP calculations.)
> 
> ...



They'd just call it a 40MP sensor.

The "padding", as you call it, are the necessary photosites around the edges to allow interpolation of color based on the RGB Bayer Matrix pattern (or whatever other pattern a particular sensor is using) of color filters over each photo site. If a camera's demosaicing scheme goes out 5 rows/columns in each direction, then one must have five extra rows/columns on each of the the four sides of the sensor to interpolate an R, G, and B value for each photosite that is inside the "effective MP" area.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 14, 2019)

stevelee said:


> Wouldn't the difference in the way they are used account for some of that? People shooting the 7D II would tend to use multiple shots per shutter button push than would those using the 80D, right? That would be on top of shooting in situations where you take many more pictures, as in sports.



I don't know very many, if any, 7D Mark II shooters who use a 7D Mark II alone for anything much other than sports/action/wildlife unless they're using it in a multi-body situation where a FF camera (or two) will have a lens (or lenses) covering wider angles of view and a longer lens on the crop body. Those other types of shooters you describe tend to use 70D/80D types of bodies if an APS-C body is their primary camera. If their budget is extremely limited then they're shooting Rebels of one stripe or another.

I do know one guy who puts a 70-200 on a FF 1D X (because that is the lens he uses for most of his published frames), but also carries a 7D2 + EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS as his "wide" body for photojournalism. But then again, he is a "weekend" part-time freelancer so most of his assignments are very sports/action oriented - local "fun runs" or more serious running events, bicycle races, dragon boat races, people dancing at outdoor concerts and other weekend events, etc. in addition to high school and youth league sports.

Insofar as it applies to the rumored upcoming "90D" being a suitable replacement for both the 80D and 7D Mark II, those types of shooters requiring high frame rate, high volume shooting in an APS-C body aren't going to disappear into thin air just because Canon no longer offers an APS-C body with tank-like construction and a more durable shutter than what the x0D series has offered in the past (up to and including the 80D).

Many of them might well disappear from the _Canon_ ranks if Nikon offers an updated and improved D500 successor in the near future, though. The biggest impediment there is the high cost of Nikon's incredible AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8E FL ED VR at near $3K. APS-C sports/action shooters are using APS-C instead of FF bodies to reduce the cost of lenses with the speed and reach they need as well as to get higher frame rates without spending what a 1D X/1D X Mark II or D4/5 body costs. The cost difference between the EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS III and the AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8E FL ED VR is probably enough to buy an extra "90D" for when the first one wears out or can't handle the punishment shooting in harsh environmental conditions.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 14, 2019)

ashmadux said:


> *N.G.H.*
> 
> From Canon? Not a chance in hell this will happen.
> 
> ...



N.G.H.?


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## slclick (Jun 14, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> N.G.H.?


(Not Gonna Happen) But let us backtrack, shall we? It's CR1


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## Policar (Jun 18, 2019)

Is there any way to bin 25 pixels into 9?


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## Dragon (Jun 18, 2019)

Policar said:


> Is there any way to bin 25 pixels into 9?


As I said above, the math doesn't work for binning, so we may finally see scaling from Canon for video in a still camera.


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## Policar (Jun 18, 2019)

Dragon said:


> As I said above, the math doesn't work for binning, so we may finally see scaling from Canon for video in a still camera.



I wish I were as bullish. We know the sensor resolution will be 6960X4640, and 6960 is almost exactly 5/3 of DCI 4k. Maybe it's completely coincidental, but that indicates some sort of line skipping or binning scheme to me is at least on the table. Except of course that you'd be skipping 2 of every 5 lines and because of the bayer array that would be two consecutive lines, which would for sure mess with tonality and cause aliasing. Unless there's some way of binning instead...

I don't think Canon has technology to suddenly leapfrog everyone else. Their cinema cameras are enormous, big fans and big batteries, etc.

I'd be satisfied with binning, though. Just yesterday I decided not to buy a new BMPCC 4k and I'm sure the 90D won't even approach that camera for image quality, but a weather sealed (even moderately weather sealed) hybrid would make more sense for me.


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