# Can someone help me with low light settings



## Steven_urwin (Oct 6, 2012)

So, this problem has come up from working in nightclubs, where I am trying to get a night exposure for a human subject in the foreground, but have a shutter speed of around 1/30 or so for the ambient background.

I have toyed around with a couple of variations, each coming close to what I would like, but nothing bang on the nail.

Ideally I would like to have control of my aperture and shutter speed, and have the camera work out the ISO for me. The first problem I encounter is once I have mounted my flash (as this point I feel I should talk equipment. 5D3, 16-35 MK2 L, 24-70 MK2 L & EX 580 2) the auto ISO options become constrained. I have read into this a little, and have found a couple of ways around it.

Option 1... I set my ISO 4000, I set the shutter speed 1/60-1/200 and get the choice of aperture I want. Fine, except if I don't want my ISO higher than 4000, but I do want my shutter speed a little longer, say around the 1/25-1/30 mark.

Option 2... I set the Shutter speed to whatever I want 1/30 or whatever, have the auto ISO on (normally locked out at 400 max) but with the safety shift on ISO, with the ISO parameter set to a max of 6400. The problem with this is I don't like having the lens wide open. Drunk people in clubs tend to sway, and the fine depth of field result, inevitably, in people swaying out of the sweet spot. Plus on the 16-35 f4 is noticeably sharper than f2.8.

Option 3... I set the aperture at f4 on Av mode, and have the minimum time value parameter set to 1/30. This seems to work perfectly, until you switch on the flash, at which point, it forgets all about the 1/30 minimum shutter, AND locks out the flash to ISO 400.

Can anyone think of a way to have my minimum aperture set to f4, whilst I retain control of the shutter speed, and have the auto ISO range up to 6400 (or at least higher than 400!)

Sorry if this seems a trivial question, but I can't for the life of me figure it out.

Many thanks


----------



## sanj (Oct 6, 2012)

Not trivial. 
We all struggle in such situations...
I might go full manual. Set all parameters to your satisfaction for the background. Then fill in with flash. Control flash intensity with flash compensation.
Am I over simplifying it?


----------



## shadowsatnight (Oct 6, 2012)

Hi,

I'm not entirely sure what kind of shot you're aiming for from your description - night exposure with flash? Are any of these (think it requires a facebook login, but that's where people seem to want the nightclub photos over here...) the kind of thing you're after:

https://www.facebook.com/evie.firth/photos_albums
The early shots are from when i first picked up a camera, so please don't judge too harshly. I'm very much still learning 

What flash mode are you using? Is ETTL trying to do clever things? I guess at 4000iso, the flash will be set to pretty low power?
I generally shoot full manual so that i get what _i_ want.

Thanks
-Evie


----------



## PavelR (Oct 6, 2012)

sanj said:


> Not trivial.
> We all struggle in such situations...
> I might go full manual. Set all parameters to your satisfaction for the background. Then fill in with flash. Control flash intensity with flash compensation.
> Am I over simplifying it?


+1


----------



## Timothy_Bruce (Oct 6, 2012)

I also shoot nightclubs with the 16-35II and 580EXII on FF. 
And for me M with a fixed ISO between 500 and 1600 depending on club-background-brightness works best. 
I use the flash in ETTL at around +1 FEC with big difusor. 
For the Exposure I use the upper dial for aperture but most of the time it is at 2,8 because sharpness is good enough and DOF is OK, a bit tricky, and for the drunken I korrekt for their movement manual by going back or forward or refocus if necessary. 
The back dial is used for shutterspeed. So I first frame the subject then looking for the exposure meter and bring it to something around -1 to -3 depending on strobes, moving heads and scanners. The I get a exposure time between 1/60 and 1 second. 
And then taking the picture the moment I now that there is no direct MH etc. light on the subject for my exposure time. If that is impossible reducing Exposure time.
And then I have some time after the flash has done his job to get my creativity out to play with the focus and zoom ring 

just what I figured out to work fine an give a nice amount of backgroundblur.

If you like I a can also give you a link to the pictures I take with this technic.


----------



## Steven_urwin (Oct 6, 2012)

This sort of idea. Hope this helps explain


----------



## Steven_urwin (Oct 6, 2012)

Timothy_Bruce said:


> I also shoot nightclubs with the 16-35II and 580EXII on FF.
> And for me M with a fixed ISO between 500 and 1600 depending on club-background-brightness works best.
> I use the flash in ETTL at around +1 FEC with big difusor.
> For the Exposure I use the upper dial for aperture but most of the time it is at 2,8 because sharpness is good enough and DOF is OK, a bit tricky, and for the drunken I korrekt for their movement manual by going back or forward or refocus if necessary.
> ...



Thanks Timothy_Bruce... I forgot to mention, I am using a Stofen defuser, and have +2/3 EC dialled in... no FEC though.
I'd just like a way to shoot f4, without downgrading to an f4 lens... maybe I should look at the 17-40mm L for this reason? :S


----------



## shadowsatnight (Oct 6, 2012)

Steven_urwin said:


> Thanks Timothy_Bruce... I forgot to mention, I am using a Stofen defuser, and have +2/3 EC dialled in... no FEC though.
> I'd just like a way to shoot f4, without downgrading to an f4 lens... maybe I should look at the 17-40mm L for this reason? :S



I'd stick with the fastest lens you can, as it'll help with the auto focus.


----------



## wickidwombat (Oct 6, 2012)

thats your problem you are dialling in + EC

if the background is darker than your subject you need to -EC on the flash to balance to the ambient

try
ISO 3200
1/15 sec
f2.8

-1 to -1.5 EC on the flash


----------



## bbasiaga (Oct 6, 2012)

+1 on full manual mode. You can then put your flash in TTL mode and use negative FEC to get a more natural blend with the background. This will be the easiest way to have the control you want. 

-Brian


----------



## rocketdesigner (Oct 6, 2012)

Wouldn't you want faster shutter speeds than these for handheld shooting? Not only for your own tiny movements holding the camera, but also the fact as pointed out -- these people are often crocked and moving as well?


----------



## Act444 (Oct 6, 2012)

From my own experience, if it is dark enough, the flash light dominates the exposure for the foreground, so 1/10-1/30 sec can be used to light up the background a bit and still get a sharp foreground image...


----------



## squidgyg (Oct 6, 2012)

As long as no-one from Melbourne steals my tips (and my business  ) then here's how I shoot.

My equipment: T2i, 15-85mm lens, 580 exII (with stofen or Bounce card depending on venue) 
this setup is fine for clubs, honestly, only full-frame could look better

Full Manual.
Shutter: 1/10
Aperture: f/4.0 (but set larger for big groups)
ISO: anywhere between ISO 200-800 (big groups sometimes 1600)
Flash either on ETTL, but I mostly shoot manual flash 1/8 or 1/4, second curtain flash

obviously it depends on the venue, but these are the settings i use in most of the clubs,bars and pubs i work in/have worked in.

Sometimes exposures need to be fixed up in lightroom from using the flash on manual, but yeah, thats an easy job.


----------



## shadowsatnight (Oct 7, 2012)

rocketdesigner said:


> Wouldn't you want faster shutter speeds than these for handheld shooting? Not only for your own tiny movements holding the camera, but also the fact as pointed out -- these people are often crocked and moving as well?



As mentioned, the flash freezes motion in the foreground, so you can set the shutter speed to more or less what you like. I find 1 or 2 seconds works quite well if people're glowsticking, for instance as you get them frozen but a nice glow trail where they've moved.



squidgyg said:


> As long as no-one from Melbourne steals my tips (and my business  ) then here's how I shoot.
> 
> My equipment: T2i, 15-85mm lens, 580 exII (with stofen or Bounce card depending on venue)
> this setup is fine for clubs, honestly, only full-frame could look better
> ...



more or less what i used to run (7D rather than 550D, but same sensor). Towards the end of last season i started using the Sigma 20mm f/1.8 instead though, as i found it let the camera pull focus out of the near dark. Still take the actual pictures around f/4 though.

Looking forward to trying the 5d3 out for halloween though - i figure some near flashless shots will really pull out the fluorescent in people's outfits 

Also, i'm impressed at how together the people in your photos look... guess you must party in classier places than i do!

-Evie


----------



## Steven_urwin (Oct 7, 2012)

shadowsatnight said:


> rocketdesigner said:
> 
> 
> > Wouldn't you want faster shutter speeds than these for handheld shooting? Not only for your own tiny movements holding the camera, but also the fact as pointed out -- these people are often crocked and moving as well?
> ...



Hi Evie,

Here are some UV shots from my 5D3 with 580 EX2...

You can really pull out the fluorescent quite well


----------



## shadowsatnight (Oct 7, 2012)

Do y'all use on camera flash? I've always preferred off camera, but most others i see tend to be using it on camera. One of the reasons i got to using full manual was a set of cheap radio triggers


----------



## Steven_urwin (Oct 7, 2012)

shadowsatnight said:


> Do y'all use on camera flash? I've always preferred off camera, but most others i see tend to be using it on camera. One of the reasons i got to using full manual was a set of cheap radio triggers



I use on camera flash, yes. I do use a Stofen diffuser that I find excellence, and bounce the flash off the roof (Watching out where I can for colour cast if the roof is any other colour than white!).

I did pick up a pair of Pixel's King Radio triggers, or at least I think that's what they are called.. feel free to correct me. But for most of my work, I don't bother with them. If there is a particular shot that I am after, then sure, I will set up the flash wherever... usually on manual, and use the Av for flash, and Tv for ambient, but this is only really if I'm trying to get something for a DJ or something.

My normal work really only consists of being paid to mash the shutter button as many times as possible in a club, and my employers probably don't know the difference from an SLR to a Bridging camera!


----------



## shadowsatnight (Oct 7, 2012)

What's the decor like in the places you shoot? My usual haunts have black wall hangings, with UV reactive designs painted on them and I've found them to be pretty variable in terms of the bounce i can get.

Happily, i can do more or less what i like with the night club photography, as i got in to it as something to stop me dancing for 8 hours straight


----------



## Diko (Oct 10, 2012)

Try this:

* ISO - anything above 800 (I am with 40D) 
* FLASH -3
* Time - above 1/6th. However below 1/25th. Best about 1/15th or 1/13th
* F - 2.8 (on my 24-70Lmm ;-)


However there might be also some exceptions like this one:
1/5 sec at f/5.6, ISO 1250 (40D) @ 40 mm of 24-70L






_P.S My website is not ready at all   _


----------



## Timothy_Bruce (Oct 10, 2012)

http://www.facebook.com/snow.dome.party?ref=hl

Is that what you looking for ?


----------



## Steven_urwin (Oct 11, 2012)

Diko said:


> Try this:
> 
> * ISO - anything above 800 (I am with 40D)
> * FLASH -3
> ...



Hi there Diko,

I'm really loving this picture. You've done really well there. Please can you post when your website is up and running.... I'd love to have a look. Thanks for the useful info. At the minutes, I am shooting a little faster than that, around 1/30 of a second, but with the 5D3 I'm running the ISO up around 5000 so this probably makes up the stop difference.


----------



## TC1006 (Oct 12, 2012)

How are you guys keeping from getting camera shake or blur in such low shutter speeds?


----------



## verysimplejason (Oct 12, 2012)

shadowsatnight said:


> Do y'all use on camera flash? I've always preferred off camera, but most others i see tend to be using it on camera. One of the reasons i got to using full manual was a set of cheap radio triggers



It all depends on the situation. If you want to be very mobile and fast, on-camera flash is a better alternative. If you have time to setup then definitely, off-camera flash is way much better.


----------



## verysimplejason (Oct 12, 2012)

TC1006 said:


> How are you guys keeping from getting camera shake or blur in such low shutter speeds?



Using a flash will do it for you. As I remember having a flash is like having dual exposure on your camera. Your flash meter is independent from the default metering of your camera. That's why if you really want to expose properly your background, you meter first for your background then let the flash meter for your foreground. 

There's a good experiment on this. Try to meter with your camera, then use flash. While pressing the shutter, gently nudge your camera clockwise or counterclockwise. You'll see that your background is blurred but your foreground (subject) is still on focus. ;D


----------



## lucuias (Oct 12, 2012)

Normally is club environment,my standard setting is shuttle speed 1/80,F/2.8 and ISO 1600.
In group picture I will increase my aperture to F/5.6 and ISO 3200 .These setting works for me most of the time with 5D mark III + Canon 24-70 F/2.8 + 580EXII.











Sometimes,I turn off the flash and bump the iso 12800 if I find interesting ambient light


----------



## TC1006 (Oct 15, 2012)

I had an opportunity to put some of these suggestions into practice. And struggled a bit on getting good consistent results. Maybe someone can tell me what I did wrong. 

5D3 with 50mm 1.4 on Full manual at f/4 and 1/60th shutter. 600ex flash on ETTL with Stofen diffuser pointed at 45degrees. I also had +2/3 FEC dialed in. ISO 400
The ambient light was pretty dim. The trouble I was having was with the exposure. It seemed that the flash was getting inconsistent results. Some seemed like the flash was way too powerful and at others it was low. 

Any suggestions?


----------



## Ryan708 (Oct 15, 2012)

when I bounce flash or use my home-grown diffuser, my flash is more accurate if I flip the built in diffuer over the flash's frensel lens first. Dunno why. Prob just my stupid sigma. I dont like that flash lol


----------



## Steven_urwin (Nov 12, 2012)

TC1006 said:


> I had an opportunity to put some of these suggestions into practice. And struggled a bit on getting good consistent results. Maybe someone can tell me what I did wrong.
> 
> 5D3 with 50mm 1.4 on Full manual at f/4 and 1/60th shutter. 600ex flash on ETTL with Stofen diffuser pointed at 45degrees. I also had +2/3 FEC dialed in. ISO 400
> The ambient light was pretty dim. The trouble I was having was with the exposure. It seemed that the flash was getting inconsistent results. Some seemed like the flash was way too powerful and at others it was low.
> ...



There are a couple of things that jump out here, but to best analyse, is there any chance of posting a picture that you're not too happy with, for us to rip apart.... I mean critique! 
One of the best way to find out what it is that isn't working, is just to start changing setting, and find out what effect that particular attribute has on the picture.
F/4 and 1/60 sounds like not a lot of light coming in alreading, on top of that, if you are running ISO 400, you are really working your flash to produce enough light. I'm guessing here without seeing examples that either they are correctly exposed, or underexpose. (None overexpose).
This will be because your flash is pushing so hard, you are running out of power on some of the darker shots. I might be wrong, please anyone jump in an correct me.


----------



## ChrisAnderson (Nov 16, 2012)

I don't often do club-style photography, but recently I covered an afterparty at a pretty cool lounge here in Boston - I also use a 5D3, and my first move was setting ISO to 3200, which stayed relatively static all evening (some bumps and pulls here and there). I had my 580EXII mounted on-camera with a Lumiquest ProMax diffuser (my first time using it).
Lenses were either 50mm f/1.4 or 70-200 f/2.8L IS II for these shots. I prefer to shoot the 50 near 1.6 or 2.0, and usually opt for more candid and artistic shots than trying to pose everyone and get them all in focus,

Here are two shots with the 50 @ f/1.8, shutter speed 1/160-200, ISO 3200 with FEC at probably -1 (although i had the diffuser on which further lowers the perceived output)

The bottom shot is with the 70-200, at f/2.8 and shutter speed 1/50, ISO 3200

If you're shooting at f/4 you probably want to lower your shutter speed further. I'd say 1/25 or 1/30. Also try setting the flash to fire at second-curtain. Run through a range of FEC settings until you find something that gives a good balance of foreground and ambient light - often i find when reviewing images that the whole image, although it looks balanced, seems sort of dim and generally underexposed - for that you might try bumping up the ISO a notch if you notice it during the event. If it's too late, Lightroom works wonders


----------

