# Touchscreen Coming to EOS 5D Mark IV? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 16, 2015)

```
<p>We’re told that there’s a good possibility that one of Canon’s professional cameras will get a tilting touchscreen LCD. We don’t think such a thing would appear on the EOS-1D X Mark II, but could find a home on the EOS 5D Mark IV. Both the tilting and touchscreen LCD features are asked for by a lot of Canon shooters.</p>
<p>The EOS 5D Mark IV isn’t going to be an incremental update, so expect lots of new technology added to the nameplate.</p>
<p>This comes from a new source.</p>
```


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 16, 2015)

Nooooo...

The more gimmicks, the less chance of a sensor breakthrough.

Ok, maybe I could live with A rugged well executed touch screen. But a flip screen is just a hazard.


----------



## addola (Nov 16, 2015)

It would be useful for macro shots on live view. But then they should have nice features like focus peaking and exposure preview with flash.

I use Canon 6D and I find myself needing to stick my head in the bushes to take a shot with reversed lenses and a flash. Not very convenient.


----------



## Bennymiata (Nov 16, 2015)

Being left eyed, I'd really appreciate a swing out screen as I put persperation from my face all over the screen.


----------



## mackguyver (Nov 16, 2015)

Bennymiata said:


> Being left eyed, I'd really appreciate a swing out screen as I put persperation from my face all over the screen.


+1 and it would be nice for macro and studio work, but it better be rugged.


----------



## Proscribo (Nov 16, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> But a flip screen is just a hazard.


Where does this myth come that flip screen would be more vulnerable to damage than a fixed one?

I'd think it's even the other way around, as you can optionally turn the flippy screen around so that the screen itself isn't even exposed.


----------



## sunnyVan (Nov 16, 2015)

I would have no trouble believing that a flip screen would appear on a new 6d model. But on 5d series? Much harder to believe!


----------



## pedro (Nov 16, 2015)

Whatever we see as an improvement in IQ is of higher priority for me... But maybe for astro at night I could like a flip screen...


----------



## Mr Bean (Nov 16, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> Nooooo...
> 
> The more gimmicks, the less chance of a sensor breakthrough.
> 
> Ok, maybe I could live with A rugged well executed touch screen. But a flip screen is just a hazard.


+1. A touch screen I don't have an issue with. But a flip screen is just something else to break off. Being held onto the camera by a solitary connection is increasing the chance of something going wrong. Sure, for macro work, I would like it. But, that's why I bought the right-angled finder.


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Nov 16, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> Nooooo...
> 
> The more gimmicks, the less chance of a sensor breakthrough.
> 
> Ok, maybe I could live with A rugged well executed touch screen. But a flip screen is just a hazard.


Of course. The is a mountain of evidence that flippy screens are a hazard and break all the time. I mean, just look at the countless threads on DPR and CR of people snapping off their screens. Biggest gimmick ever invented by mankind! 

Seriously though, I bet the number of people hurting their back, knees, and necks from not having a flippy screen is many times greater than the number of flippy screens that have broken. 

If the flippy screen is not put into a 5D4, it's because of the buttons on the left side, not because Canon can't make one strong and weather proof. Making a hinged screen weather proof and strong could be done by even the most incompetent engineers. 

Edit: 

A google search for broken articulating screens yielded nothing at all for me. 

Here's a thread poll on POTN. Tons of users with cameras that have articulating screens. Failure rate is pretty much zero. 

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1017777&page=1


----------



## wsmith96 (Nov 16, 2015)

I welcome the addition. I doubt they would add it to the 5D if it were flimsy. Has anyone had a negative result with an articulated screen? I've had a 60D for a while with no issues. I can't comment on the touch part.


----------



## lidocaineus (Nov 16, 2015)

I registered JUST to say this:

For all you people who think tillable and/or articulating screens are delicate or weaken a body, all I have to say is you must have very limited shooting experience.

- There has been no evidence of articulating screens being the source of numerous returns, warranty claims, or malfunctions.

- The usefulness of an articulating screen is _incredible_. Being able to shoot easily from different levels without having to contort your body into weird positions is a godsend, and if you think it's only when you shoot macro, again, I have to wonder what kind of shooting you do. And no, a 90 degree viewfinder won't help you when you're holding your camera above your head or dropping it close/on the ground. And have you ever tried to shoot yourself in a group? Do you know how much easier it is to flip a screen 180 degrees and get the framing right in real time?

- If you're worried about damage,_ you realize you can keep the screen locked in place, right_? And that if it's an articulating screen, you can actually protect the screen even more by having it face the inside?

Once you use a hinged screen you realize just how limiting a fixed screen is. I love my 5DIII but I've lost count of the number of times I've wished I had my old 60D's rotating screen. These arguments against tilting and articulating screens are tiring.


----------



## TWI by Dustin Abbott (Nov 16, 2015)

lidocaineus said:


> I registered JUST to say this:
> 
> For all you people who think tillable and/or articulating screens are delicate or weaken a body, all I have to say is you must have very limited shooting experience.
> 
> ...



Here, here - a compelling first post.


----------



## Maximilian (Nov 16, 2015)

I expect Canon beeing able to design this good and rugged.
But I also expect the body to become more edged and thicker. 
This I don't like about the idea of a tilting screen. 
And I also don't like finger marks on a fixed touch screen where I'd like to see the sharpness of a pic.

So definetly not my most desired feature for this camera.


----------



## greger (Nov 16, 2015)

If you break a flippy screen on your camera, your gonna break your camera. I think having a flippy screen plus the other improvements will have some people over the moon with glee!


----------



## unfocused (Nov 16, 2015)

Maximilian said:


> And I also don't like finger marks on a fixed touch screen where I'd like to see the sharpness of a pic.



Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but that makes no sense at all.

If you are worried about finger marks on a screen, don't touch it. It's as simple as that. Just because a camera has a touch screen, it doesn't mean you have to use it. It's just a simpler, more efficient way to cycle through the menus and change settings. And, honestly, you are more likely to get marks on a screen from putting your eye up to the viewfinder and your cheek/nose against the camera, whether it is a touch screen or not. 

There is no legitimate reason to object to a touch screen -- just myths. The only legitimate reason to object to a flip screen is that the hinge takes up additional real estate on the back of the camera, so the right-side buttons would need to be relocated.


----------



## douglaurent (Nov 16, 2015)

The 5D4 still will be so far behind the A7R2 regarding specs, that such things are the minimum you can expect from Canon to show at least a handful of arguments to buy this camera. Also it would be no problem to release 2 different 5D4 versions, so that those who think less is more are still satisfied.


----------



## ahsanford (Nov 16, 2015)

If the rumor turns out to be true:

1) As a long time resistor of flippy screens (principally for cost, more s--- that can fail, etc.), I'll live. I will just keep that screen locked on the body at all times.

2) One would imagine the _6D2_ would also be a certainty to get a flippy screen now. Only the 'built for war' field rigs -- the 7D2 and 1DX/1DX II -- or the super cheapo 1200D slot would probably not get one in the future. 

3) Canon apparently didn't like my gamechanger idea of making a modular LCD mount for the 5D line. (Want rigid? It's kitted with the body. Want tilt only or tilty-flippy? $199 add on, they snap on an off like a cartridge.) Our loss, I guess -- that would have been awesome.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Nov 16, 2015)

douglaurent said:


> The 5D4 still will be so far behind the A7R2 regarding specs, that such things are the minimum you can expect from Canon to show at least a handful of arguments to buy this camera. Also it would be no problem to release 2 different 5D4 versions, so that those who think less is more are still satisfied.



You know what, you're right. I'm going to sell all my Canon gear right now. 

[queue REO Speedwagon's "I Can't Fight This Feeling Any Longer"]

- A


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 16, 2015)

unfocused said:


> y..
> 
> 
> Maximilian said:
> ...



You do have to use the touch screen if canon has removed the buttons!

Flip screens are for kids with toy cameras, seriously.


----------



## StoneColdCoffee (Nov 16, 2015)

sunnyVan said:


> I would have no trouble believing that a touch screen would appear on a new 6d model. But 5d series? Harder to believe!



+1 I believe it will be on the 6D II. Which I would purchase. But if it goes appear on the 5DIV and not on the 6DII , then im going to have to wait until the new 5DIV price comes down and purchase it. But im very excited and hopeful that it might happen. I use the 6D with DSLRDashboard. would be nice to have less equipment to haul around and also to have a time lapse controller on both the new 6DII and 5DIV.


----------



## Etienne (Nov 16, 2015)

lidocaineus said:


> I registered JUST to say this:
> 
> For all you people who think tillable and/or articulating screens are delicate or weaken a body, all I have to say is you must have very limited shooting experience.
> 
> ...



+1000

I've had three cameras with swivel screens, and quite a few without including the 5D3. I have never had a failure of a swivel screen, and it comes in handy almost every shoot day. I really wish my 5D3 had a swivel touchscreen. I don't even bother with a screen protector with swivel screen cameras because I just keep it closed LCD side inwards when not in use or when in potential danger.

Bring on the swivel touchscreen with touch-to-focus, focus racking, DPAF, touch to shoot etc etc. Leave the naysayers behind, just like when they were objecting to autofocus in pro cameras.


----------



## rs (Nov 16, 2015)

A touch screen can be really useful for certain uses, as long as everything can still be done via the physical buttons, and they work out a way to ensure false presses are ignored (e.g., you don't set it 10 sec timer or AF off because your nose touched the screen when you put the viewfinder up to your eye.

Similarly, a swivel screen has its uses when coupled with a good live view implementation. If I don't want to get covered in mud, wide angle lenses and shooting low to the ground always result in me being miles away from a level horizon. Again, it has to be both physically tough, not impact weather sealing and offer both a large display and not displace any buttons for it to have no disadvantages.


----------



## gsealy (Nov 16, 2015)

Etienne said:


> lidocaineus said:
> 
> 
> > I registered JUST to say this:
> ...



I agree too. I have it on my t4i and it works great, and there are no issues at all with 'flimsiness.' As mentioned in the OP I turn it the opposite way during transporting so that the hard side faces out. So actually the LCD is even better protected that what we have today on the 5DIII. There are other use cases rather than just kneeling down. For example, if the camera is mounted on a dolly for video, then the screen can be tilted down so as to get good framing. Same for holding the camera over your head when in crowd. This is a nice feature folks. In a couple of years people will complain when a camera doesn't have it.


----------



## gsealy (Nov 16, 2015)

"so expect lots of new technology added to the nameplate."

This is a good thing. But 'lots' is a relative term. Everybody has a different idea what 'lots' actually is. Canon too.


----------



## ahsanford (Nov 16, 2015)

gsealy said:


> "so expect lots of new technology added to the nameplate."
> 
> This is a good thing. But 'lots' is a relative term. Everybody has a different idea what 'lots' actually is. Canon too.



There two sides to this. 'Technology' is either value-add left-field stuff we didn't see coming, like DPAF or anti-flicker mode, or it's something to address the core performance forum-dwellers disproportionately care about (i.e. DR, noise, etc.). 

All my chips are on the former. The sensor's base performance will be marginally better but cannot possibly meet expectations of anyone wanting to keep up the sonyJoneses.

- A


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 16, 2015)

gsealy said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > lidocaineus said:
> ...


A week ago I was doing technical photography in very cramped quarters. I had a 5D2 and a 7D2 with me.... I went home at lunch for my 60D and shot the rest of the project with it.... sometimes a tilt swivel screen is the most important feature on the camera.....


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 16, 2015)

Mr Bean said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Nooooo...
> ...



right-angled finder is a lot worse than 10x liveview on a flip screen

plus where are all the reports or broken flip screens or pop-up flashes? where?

and if you don't trust the flip, just keep it locked down


----------



## gunship01 (Nov 16, 2015)

I would have to think Canon's efforts are best spent on making the sharpest pictures (IQ, low light, sensor, ISO) possible and leave the gimmicks to the lower tiered series (7 and 6). I cannot imagine many wedding photographers needing to shoot too many pictures from the hip and not look through the viewfinder.


----------



## jolyonralph (Nov 16, 2015)

Don't bother with a swivel screen, put a 1mpx rear camera in for selfies


----------



## gsealy (Nov 16, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> gsealy said:
> 
> 
> > "so expect lots of new technology added to the nameplate."
> ...



Just one other thought -- Of all of Canon's cameras it seems to me that the one getting the most emotional involvement is the 5D evolution. Lots and lots of people use the 'III' and the 'II.' It is just versatile and good. I had a wonderful shoot today with a 5DIII and the 24-70mm f2.8. All of the shots are keepers and I have the nice problem determining which ones to use. At other times I have used it to shoot commercial videos with external Atomos recording to get the 422 color depth and high bit rate. 

So basically what I am saying is the customers want the 5DIV to continue to be a versatile machine, but with current standards. They are willing to pay the price for it. It is very emotional as evidenced by the posts. It will be very interesting to see what the final product is.


----------



## zim (Nov 16, 2015)

Really not bothered one way or another about a tilt screen but touch screen, bring it on!


----------



## Chngster (Nov 16, 2015)

Whichever 5D/6D full frame gets the touchscreen treatment is the one I'll get. Having used 70D for the past 2 years, the ease of a touchscreen is something I don't want to lose. It makes focusing on objects at the very edge of the screen easy. And super easy to delete photos on the run.


----------



## ahsanford (Nov 16, 2015)

gunship01 said:


> I would have to think Canon's efforts are best spent on making the sharpest pictures (IQ, low light, sensor, ISO) possible and leave the gimmicks to the lower tiered series (7 and 6). I cannot imagine many wedding photographers needing to shoot too many pictures from the hip and not look through the viewfinder.



Because 5D owners _only_ shoot weddings. Come on.

I don't even want a flip screen but it's inevitable for a host of reasons. 

And the argument that a flip screen is stealing resources from improving sensors don't hold water. The staff who work on those things are quite different in skillset -- "Sorry, world class sensor designer Dave and data handling / noise processing ringer Lisa, we need you to stop with your mission critical on-chip ADC work and _knock out a flippy screen for us_. Chop chop." 

I appreciate a project has a budget and everything has a price, but it's not like in the planning stages of the project Canon could have traded away that proposed flippy screen for two stops more DR at ISO 100. Those are apples and oranges to deliver.

- A


----------



## 3kramd5 (Nov 16, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> The more gimmicks, the less chance of a sensor breakthrough.



Um. Why? Seems entirely unrelated.


----------



## ahsanford (Nov 16, 2015)

gsealy said:


> Just one other thought -- Of all of Canon's cameras it seems to me that the one getting the most emotional involvement is the 5D evolution. Lots and lots of people use the 'III' and the 'II.' It is just versatile and good. I had a wonderful shoot today with a 5DIII and the 24-70mm f2.8. All of the shots are keepers and I have the nice problem determining which ones to use. At other times I have used it to shoot commercial videos with external Atomos recording to get the 422 color depth and high bit rate.
> 
> So basically what I am saying is the customers want the 5DIV to continue to be a versatile machine, but with current standards. They are willing to pay the price for it. It is very emotional as evidenced by the posts. It will be very interesting to see what the final product is.



Agree in general. Keep in mind that Canon is 100% developing the 5D4 and 1DX II for working photographers first and 'keeping up with the Joneses' a distant second. Canon still cleaning up major photography awards and pros aren't leaving Canon in nearly the numbers you'd expect based on DXO testing. Until they lose their core professionals in large numbers, Canon will stick to what works: they blow off lab testing review folks and choose to listen to their customers instead. It's worked so far.

- A


----------



## Etienne (Nov 16, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > The more gimmicks, the less chance of a sensor breakthrough.
> ...



Because it's just like that toy feature they brought in for amateurs a couple of decades ago, remember? I think they called it "auto-focus," but no true professional uses it!


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 16, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > The more gimmicks, the less chance of a sensor breakthrough.
> ...



If you feel obligated to put out a new product but have no core improvements, add gimmicks. That's marketing 101.


----------



## pwp (Nov 16, 2015)

Mr Bean said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Nooooo...
> ...



Have you guys even used flipping touch screens? They're just fantastic. After a 15 months shooting video & stills with a Panasonic GH4 which has a superbly implemented flip/touch screen I'm a total convert. There is zero vulnerability unless you're a complete 100% klutz. And you can be pretty sure Canon will have the menu option to leave Touch switched off. And you can leave the flip screen in it's default position if you don't like it. But that would be at the expense of denying yourself very useful functionality which is just another aid to the creative process.

When I'm shooting stills with 5D3 and 1D MkIV I miss the touch functionality. It's just so efficient and intuitive.

-pw


----------



## jolyonralph (Nov 16, 2015)

The issue with an articulating screen on a 5D-class camera was never about fragility, as far as I recall, but more to do with the problems guaranteeing weather sealing.


----------



## scyrene (Nov 16, 2015)

gunship01 said:


> I would have to think Canon's efforts are best spent on making the sharpest pictures (IQ, low light, sensor, ISO) possible and leave the gimmicks to the lower tiered series (7 and 6). I cannot imagine many wedding photographers needing to shoot too many pictures from the hip and not look through the viewfinder.



It needn't be either/or - you think adding a different kind of screen means they don't have the resources to address other issues? Really?

And why is it a gimmick? Needlessly snobbish view.


----------



## sunnyVan (Nov 16, 2015)

I think WiFi functionality would be enough to address low angle shooting. I'd take Wifi over flip screen.


----------



## eguzowski (Nov 16, 2015)

The Flip Out touch Screen is a MUST DO! Im a professional event photographer and videographer and this feature is 100% desired! I use to be a full time photojournalist for 10 years working for The New York Times, Associated Press and Ive been published in National Geographic. 

The weddings with a 5D3 and a 70D. I use the 70D for stills or video because of the articulating touch screen. To get an shot while the camera is on the floor is awesome and quick with the flip articulating screen and a must for overhead type of shots of dancing etc. When shooting video the touch screen is awesome and having it articulate is a must. I bought a EOS cinema C100 but I felt it clumsy for shooting wedding, the view finder useless and not nearly as user friendly as the 70D. The articulating screen with awesome video auto focus on a 5D IV would be 2x-3x better in low light than the 70D. I have to shoot the 70D with a Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 DC HSM Art Lens.

Im seriously considering moving to Sony if Canon doesn't make an articulating touch screen for the 5D IV...I see no need to be loyal to a company whom doesn't keep up with the competition. 

Erik
www.ExhalePhotoJournalism.com


----------



## Pookie (Nov 17, 2015)

A flip touch screen... comes with lenspen and Chinese knock off rocket blower too. Will also be available only at Costco :


----------



## Luds34 (Nov 17, 2015)

Interesting rumor. I too would have thought the 6D would get an articulating and touch screen first. Unless the next 6D will be consisted pro. 

My question is, if implemented on a 5D, what happens with the buttons on the left of the screen? Surely they would have to go/move right? 

As far as the articulating screens go, I enjoy it on my 70D. Don't use it too often but when you do it is nice to have. With that said I probably miss the touch more (for photo review) more then the flipiness on my 6D.


----------



## RGF (Nov 17, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> Nooooo...
> 
> The more gimmicks, the less chance of a sensor breakthrough.
> 
> Ok, maybe I could live with A rugged well executed touch screen. But a flip screen is just a hazard.



the more gimmicks the greater the chance of something breaking


----------



## candc (Nov 17, 2015)

I really like the 70d because of the t/s screen. I've had problems with touch screen phones when they get some moisture on them and go all haywire (especially in winter) but no problems with the camera. I don't think fragility is an issue but it should have an option to be disabled if the conditions are bad.


----------



## Etienne (Nov 17, 2015)

eguzowski said:


> The Flip Out touch Screen is a MUST DO! Im a professional event photographer and videographer and this feature is 100% desired! I use to be a full time photojournalist for 10 years working for The New York Times, Associated Press and Ive been published in National Geographic.
> 
> The weddings with a 5D3 and a 70D. I use the 70D for stills or video because of the articulating touch screen. To get an shot while the camera is on the floor is awesome and quick with the flip articulating screen and a must for overhead type of shots of dancing etc. When shooting video the touch screen is awesome and having it articulate is a must. I bought a EOS cinema C100 but I felt it clumsy for shooting wedding, the view finder useless and not nearly as user friendly as the 70D. The articulating screen with awesome video auto focus on a 5D IV would be 2x-3x better in low light than the 70D. I have to shoot the 70D with a Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 DC HSM Art Lens.
> 
> ...



+1000

Great post, but you'll never convince the "professionals" who "know" that no good pictures are taken with the camera over your head, on the ground, or in a tight spot. Everyone knows that you have to stand up straight and shoot with the camera against your eye to be a professional. Somehow, without ever using a swivel screen, they "know" that it is fragile and will break just before they need to take that once in a lifetime shot. And of course, a touchscreen is a toy for amateurs, like auto-focus.


----------



## Ogreatkman (Nov 17, 2015)

I shoot a fair amount of promo and other videos of that sort, my 7d2


----------



## TeT (Nov 17, 2015)

about what I expected to read based on the title.

I am sure the new source sited lives under a bridge...


----------



## Bennymiata (Nov 17, 2015)

RGF said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Nooooo...
> ...



So you use a manual focus camera with no built-in light meter?
I guess your camera doesn't have a motor drive and you still wind your own film too?

I also do weddings, events as well as product and food photography (professionally) and usually take my 70d along with my 5d3's for video as the flippy screen is just so handy to use.
Until you've used a flippy screen, you don't know how good they are.


----------



## erjlphoto (Nov 17, 2015)

I' thinking a touchscreen is more likely to show up on the 6D mkii


----------



## TeT (Nov 17, 2015)

erjlphoto said:


> I' thinking a touchscreen is more likely to show up on the 6D mkii



Yes Please...


----------



## Luds34 (Nov 17, 2015)

TeT said:


> erjlphoto said:
> 
> 
> > I' thinking a touchscreen is more likely to show up on the 6D mkii
> ...



As long as the 6D mark II was brought up, can I request more focal points? ;D


----------



## iowapipe (Nov 17, 2015)

This was a funny set of responses to read.  When I read the article I immediately wondered what the pro/con responses would be like. Kudos to everyone not taking it personally when disagreements came up. 

As someone who bought the 5D3 as an upgrade from an aged XTi and a few point-and-shoots (and a film camera)... I knew after all my research that I was going to buy the 5D3 for one reason above the rest: low light capability. Fortunately I was able to buy one for my workplace first, test it out (develop some _actual_ skills) and then 6 months later buy my own. Some may well buy the new 5D for that 'one' reason = the screen.

It seems from reading these responses that the people who utilize tiltable and touchable screens in their livelihood may be the ones that will lead us all toward an option we didn't know we'd utilize quite so much.


----------



## infared (Nov 17, 2015)

Hmmmm...The rumor says a "tilt" screen...that does not mean a "flip" or "articulating" screen to me.
An Olympus OM-D EM-5 has a "tilt" screen...versatile...yet sturdy. It does offer improved function. I shoot stills only...but I guess a flip screen would be good for video...right?
A touch screen "option" might be interesting if implemented well!


----------



## EdA78A (Nov 17, 2015)

For events photography, I hope the new camera does not have touch screen nor flip screen. These features are not needed and will just add too many things to break.


----------



## gunship01 (Nov 17, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> gunship01 said:
> 
> 
> > I would have to think Canon's efforts are best spent on making the sharpest pictures (IQ, low light, sensor, ISO) possible and leave the gimmicks to the lower tiered series (7 and 6). I cannot imagine many wedding photographers needing to shoot too many pictures from the hip and not look through the viewfinder.
> ...



Valid points. 

My reference of the wedding photographers was a pick of the many professions which use higher end camera systems. It was not my intent to claim that only 5D users only shoot weddings. 

I posit that the lion's share of what the end users/clients desire out of a camera of that caliber is not a flip/touch-screen. Even if it was #10 on the list of most desired attributes, then why develop and include in cameras capabilities few desire just because it is possible? Does the business model not support prioritization? I contend it should.


----------



## quod (Nov 17, 2015)

lidocaineus said:


> Once you use a hinged screen you realize just how limiting a fixed screen is. I love my 5DIII but I've lost count of the number of times I've wished I had my old 60D's rotating screen. These arguments against tilting and articulating screens are tiring.


Agreed 100%. I've had both cameras and the 60D articulating screen is awesome. I've had the camera ~4yrs and I have yet to remotely break it off or muck it up in any way. I have, however, scratched up my 5D3 fixed screen.


----------



## ktatty (Nov 17, 2015)

jolyonralph said:


> The issue with an articulating screen on a 5D-class camera was never about fragility, as far as I recall, but more to do with the problems guaranteeing weather sealing.



Agreed. Would be tough to weather seal.


----------



## tcmatthews (Nov 17, 2015)

Articulating screen is one thing I would love. But I hate touch screens. It seems like cameras that have touch screens remove the physical buttons. I am fine with it as long as it can be turned off and ignored with out losing functionality. 

No touchscreen at the expense of functionality period. Because the first thing I will want to do is turn the thing off. Furthermore I do not like Canons implementation in the rebels or the 70D at all. It seems clumsy to me. 

I think they should build a flip screen with a gorilla glass front and high grade magnesium back. If done right it can be much more durable than the scratch prone fixed screens. My Canon 6D and Sony A7 II both have scratch screens my 60D has a scratched back.  

So in my experience the flip screens are superior. Sample size of 4. Note 60Ds will die if drowned..


----------



## tcmatthews (Nov 17, 2015)

ktatty said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > The issue with an articulating screen on a 5D-class camera was never about fragility, as far as I recall, but more to do with the problems guaranteeing weather sealing.
> ...



Not necessarily I could easily see connector built into the base of the flip screen. It would be sealed inside and out by gaskets. If a screen died all you would have to do is unscrew the base of the adapter clean the connector and screw on a new screen.

A modular screen if you will. I think it was more a matter of perceived weather sealing.


----------



## TAF (Nov 17, 2015)

unfocused said:


> There is no legitimate reason to object to a touch screen -- just myths. The only legitimate reason to object to a flip screen is that the hinge takes up additional real estate on the back of the camera, so the right-side buttons would need to be relocated.



I beg to differ. Ever have your nose trigger a function on a touch screen? Been there, done that.

Unless I can disable the touch screen, I probably won't be buying.

I do like the idea of a floppy screen, though.


----------



## sleepnever (Nov 17, 2015)

A swing out screen like I had on my T2i would be awesome, if they can keep the weather sealing. However, a touch screen? I don't need that gimmick.


----------



## scyrene (Nov 17, 2015)

TAF said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > There is no legitimate reason to object to a touch screen -- just myths. The only legitimate reason to object to a flip screen is that the hinge takes up additional real estate on the back of the camera, so the right-side buttons would need to be relocated.
> ...



Well phone touchscreens disable when held next to the head, I don't see why a similar function couldn't apply here.


----------



## 9VIII (Nov 17, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> Bennymiata said:
> 
> 
> > Being left eyed, I'd really appreciate a swing out screen as I put persperation from my face all over the screen.
> ...


++
I love the flippy screen, not just tilty.

Chances are this is the 6DMkII and not the 5D4, but I'll take a 5D4 with a flippy screen if they want to implement it.


----------



## 9VIII (Nov 17, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> A week ago I was doing technical photography in very cramped quarters. I had a 5D2 and a 7D2 with me.... I went home at lunch for my 60D and shot the rest of the project with it.... sometimes a tilt swivel screen is the most important feature on the camera.....



In 20 years when all the professionals will be people who upgraded from a Rebel, they'll start putting fixed screens on low end cameras and force people to buy "professional" gear to get the flippy screen.


----------



## privatebydesign (Nov 17, 2015)

ktatty said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > The issue with an articulating screen on a 5D-class camera was never about fragility, as far as I recall, but more to do with the problems guaranteeing weather sealing.
> ...



Tell that to Olympus, they put a waterproof, not bullshit 'weathersealed', tilting screen on their $250 P&S, it is good to a depth of 33ft too.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 17, 2015)

TWI by Dustin Abbott said:


> lidocaineus said:
> 
> 
> > I registered JUST to say this:
> ...



Yes, great post. The screen could even have a magnesium alloy frame like the camera body. I only deploy the one on my 70D when the camera is very low, very high, or in some other odd position. Canon can seal out moisture just like anything else.

Personally, that is the one thing I wish my Mark III had. I love it on my 70D. For the older set out there the articulating screen is fantastic. Touch screen is awesome too.

Some people call this a gimmick. Someone even suggested this would somehow interfere with new sensor technology. SMH. The two aren't even related.

When the 5D Mark IV replacement comes to market I'll buy a Mark IV and be tickled to death if it has an articulating screen.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 17, 2015)

douglaurent said:


> The 5D4 still will be so far behind the A7R2 regarding specs, that such things are the minimum you can expect from Canon to show at least a handful of arguments to buy this camera. Also it would be no problem to release 2 different 5D4 versions, so that those who think less is more are still satisfied.



Pftttt!


----------



## MrFotoFool (Nov 17, 2015)

As a 5D3 (and former 5D2) user I have never really needed a tilt screen, but of course it would not hurt to have one. As others said, just leave it against camera if you don't want the tilt.

Touch screen, on the other hand, is atrocious in my opinion. My point and shoot is the EOS M with touch screen and I hate touch screen. I am constantly switching modes accidentally. Maybe part of my dislike is the fact I have never owned a smart phone (or any cell phone for that matter), so I am not used to a touch screen.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Nov 17, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > YuengLinger said:
> ...



Be that as it may, those engineers working on sensor development and those working on articulating screens are not the same people. If canon replaced all the sensor folk with hinge mechanism folk, sure, there is cause for concern. That seems unlikely.


----------



## TeT (Nov 17, 2015)

TAF said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > There is no legitimate reason to object to a touch screen -- just myths. The only legitimate reason to object to a flip screen is that the hinge takes up additional real estate on the back of the camera, so the right-side buttons would need to be relocated.
> ...



How big is your nose? ;D


----------



## Ryananthony (Nov 17, 2015)

I've owned a 60d, and never liked the flip screen personally. I don't like shooting in live view at all unless my camera is on a tripod actually. With the comments about just leaving it locked in place, I don't like how the screen doesn't fit flush against the back of the camera. If Canon can keep the buttons on the left of the camera with a flip screen, sure. But, if the buttons are located elsewhere or if they are removed all together for a touchscreen, this will not be a camera I will be buying.


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 17, 2015)

Ryananthony said:


> I've owned a 60d, and never liked the flip screen personally. I don't like shooting in live view at all unless my camera is on a tripod actually. With the comments about just leaving it locked in place, I don't like how the screen doesn't fit flush against the back of the camera. If Canon can keep the buttons on the left of the camera with a flip screen, sure. But, if the buttons are located elsewhere or if they are removed all together for a touchscreen, this will not be a camera I will be buying.



+1


----------



## scottkinfw (Nov 17, 2015)

I'm neutral on the flippy screen/touch screen. I am sure that I could find a good use for it, and it will be fun to learn. What I really want is a better sensor, better IQ, and faster, more accurate focus and tracking. A couple frames per second more with better range and iso would be great too.

Can't wait to see what actually is delivered, and I hope it comes before the summer (2016)

sek


----------



## Maximilian (Nov 17, 2015)

unfocused said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > And I also don't like finger marks on a fixed touch screen where I'd like to see the sharpness of a pic.
> ...


Hi unfocused!

You're not rude, but you're not reading properly. Sorry to say that. (Or I did write mistakable)
I didn't say, that I don't _want_ a touch screen. 
And guess what I'm doing with the one in my 100D/SL1 - don't touch it.

I did say that it's _*not my most desired feature for this camera.*_ 
There is much more _much more_ important to a 5D4 than this.

If there is a touch screen - so be it.
If there is a tilting screen with sturdy and flat mechanics - great.

If Canon makes it halfhearted - better leave it away.


----------



## Maximilian (Nov 17, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > y..
> ...


+1 
But I hope thet this won't happen to a 5D4 as the pros testing in field will tell Canon how to make/keep the button layout.


----------



## Sabaki (Nov 17, 2015)

Think we can get Tetris on the 5D IV too? :


----------



## roxics (Nov 17, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> Flip screens are for kids with toy cameras, seriously.









Oh really?


----------



## syder (Nov 17, 2015)

We've had six 70ds for a couple of years now, with pretty heavy usage by undergraduate students... One of them has a damaged articulating screen. It still works as a screen but doesn't close properly. And its out of warranty and not worth the expense of fixing (its now the last one to go out but is still fully functional).

I've no idea what the students did to it, but it does suggest it's a point of weakness compared to a fixed screen.

But then being able to use it for high/low angle shots is really useful at times, so there are plusses and minuses.


----------



## H. Jones (Nov 17, 2015)

I'm not bothered by a flippy/touch screen on a 5D, but I don't want to lose the left-side buttons! I went from the 60D's control set-up to a 5D3, and I would much, much prefer the 5D3's control scheme. 

I would never use the touch screen though; that said, if I can turn it off, no big deal, I'm sure it'd be useful to a lot of people.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 17, 2015)

scyrene said:


> TAF said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



That is exactly what happens with the 70D. As you place your eye to the viewfinder the back screen goes instantly black and then instantly turns back on when you pull away.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 17, 2015)

TAF said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > There is no legitimate reason to object to a touch screen -- just myths. The only legitimate reason to object to a flip screen is that the hinge takes up additional real estate on the back of the camera, so the right-side buttons would need to be relocated.
> ...



The 70D screen disables as you put your eye to the viewfinder. Flawless operation.

What touch screen has your nose triggered?


----------



## jolyonralph (Nov 17, 2015)

The big fear from experienced EOS users about adding a touch screen is that Canon will then remove 'unnecessary' buttons and move options to touch-screen only. This would be bad. 

I think that a touch screen would be a good advantage for two reasons only.

a) the ability to touch a focus point in live view mode (very handy for tripod use)

b) pinch/zoom on images in preview mode.

No Canon EOS with touch screen (as far as I know) has not had the option to disable the touch screen in the menu, but I really would like to see a future pro touch screen have this option expanded in the menus to:

ENABLE TOUCH SCREEN ALWAYS
ENABLE TOUCH SCREEN IN IMAGE PREVIEW AND LIVE VIEW MODE ONLY
ENABLE TOUCH SCREEN IN IMAGE PREVIEW ONLY 
DISABLE TOUCH SCREEN

That would make usability of a touch screen on a 5D class camera perfectly acceptable to me.

Jolyon


----------



## Silvertt7 (Nov 17, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > y..
> ...



Flip screens are for kids? You must not shoot much or you must be shooting the same compositions if you've never had the need for a swivel. Never shot above tripod level? Never shot macro? Never shot level with a lake's surface? Never used a 60D? I use the Mark III and many MANY times I've wished for the swivel screen from my secondary b cam 60D. There are so many amateurs speaking in this thread it's laughable.


----------



## TheJock (Nov 17, 2015)

From reading the last 6 pages one thing occurs to me, the people who are damning the flip/touch screen have never actually tried one which is obvious from the comments (will it change settings as you raise it to the face to take a shot for instance), so it’s the usual much ado about nothing.
I have a 70D and the touch screen is invaluable, it makes changing settings a rapid experience, I have also never read a single “_my flip screen broke_” thread on here (or elsewhere) so to my knowledge it’s all win win. It’s the one small thing I miss while using my 5DIII, but the FF advantages need no discussion here!


----------



## sanj (Nov 17, 2015)

Proscribo said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > But a flip screen is just a hazard.
> ...



I agree. This hazard thing is just too unfounded.


----------



## sanj (Nov 17, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > y..
> ...



hahahahah. NO.


----------



## sanj (Nov 17, 2015)

macVega said:


> Ryananthony said:
> 
> 
> > I've owned a 60d, and never liked the flip screen personally. I don't like shooting in live view at all unless my camera is on a tripod actually. With the comments about just leaving it locked in place, I don't like how the screen doesn't fit flush against the back of the camera. If Canon can keep the buttons on the left of the camera with a flip screen, sure. But, if the buttons are located elsewhere or if they are removed all together for a touchscreen, this will not be a camera I will be buying.
> ...



The tilt screens come very handy with low or high shots. Tripod or not. For eye level, the viewfinder or fixed screen work fine.


----------



## pwp (Nov 17, 2015)

Research has revealed that long-term use of touch screens can lead to severe skin rashes and possible early-onset arthritis. As for flippy screens, high use has been linked to migraine headaches and in extreme cases, uncontrolled laughter. 

Hopefully Canon will not risk a debilitating class action, and release a fully conventional, un-evolved 5D4. 

-pw


----------



## tomscott (Nov 17, 2015)

Pretty dumfounded by the lack of excitement for this feature and the antiquated views of this forum.

Im a wedding a event photographer but also shoot about 50% of that time Motorsport. I am also an avid landscape, wildlife, general nature and travel photographer. In the last year I have taken a step back from working and have been spending the year traveling the world. Therefore have been in a lot of situations where this feature is a no brainer. 

I have to say the touch element I'm neither here nor there about it will be useful so I'm not complaining there is no downside if you can turn it off. The biggest disappointment having access to both the 7DMKII and 70D is that the 70Ds video is vastly improved because you can touch to focus, this is where touch is invaluable for me, stills photography not quite as important but for video it seems natural. The one time I like the idea of the touch screen for stills is landscape when on a tripod and instead of moving the focus point by the control dial just touch to focus.

A flip screen is essential IMO if you haven't shot with one you really are missing out. I have a 5DMKIII and 7DMKII my GF has the 70D and I'm constantly stealing it from her when it comes to landscapes, macro and when an unconventional situation arrises, they are so versatile I can't understand why anyone would see a negative. 

The screen itself gets more protection from scratches meaning less need for a protector as you can flip it round when not in use. Like I said I have been traveling the world and its a great way of protecting the screen. 

I love getting close to the ground especially when I'm shooting motorsport events, not while trackside but when out in the field with the enthusiast and club vehicles. I have fairly bad knees from sports in my younger days although only 27 and after shooting a day like this i come home in quite a lot of pain from getting down to the level of the vehicles, even more so I wouldn't look like such a pillock when I want to get down to the ground and shoot from the floor, usually I get oil, petrol rubber all over my clothes because with the 7 and 5s you can't see the screen even when kneeling in live view so the viewfinder is the only option for me. 

Otherwise I live in Cumbria UK, the Lake District it is incredibly beautiful but very wet. A lot of the time I am clambering in rivers, mud, puddles, moss, wet ground etc. When your out for a day and that shot comes up I would sacrifice my comfort to get the shot meaning my clothes generally get wet and even wearing the best waterproof gear you inevitably get wet, a flippy screen would generally stop this from happening. A lot of the time the gf just laughs at me because she can just flip the screen. 

Another example, i spent a bit of this time in rainforrests, deserts and generally inhospitable places again same thing sometimes its not feasible to get down so low to the ground. Sand dunes and salt flats in both death valley and the atacama desert for example, the sand is too hot to lie in and the salt ruins your clothes and when dries has such a horrible feeling on your skin drying it out etc all these situations would be solved with a flip screen,

Im 99% sure I'm not the only one that has been in these situations and maybe not a daily basis but enough to warrant one. Its just such a shame IMO that the better sensors and bodies don't allow you to do these things easily, bodies you can push harder and rely on but make it more difficult at times and can feel antiquated compared to the lower end bodies.

Even with weddings, I wouldn't use it as regularly but it would be useful to get those above shots of groups while on the dance floor. If you have a gangway above a dance floor and want to shoot vertically down you just have to guess without a flip screen. If nothing it aids creation because your not guessing where the composition is.

If any of you guys are like me you shoot more than just one aspect of photography because the more you do the more revenue you can make.

I feel a lot of the views here are so conservative then the haters will come out when Canon comes out with nothing fresh because people think the cameras are perfect. Canon is my preferred brand but they are far from perfect and atm I expect these cameras at the price point to be the very best. Theres no reason they can't make a weather sealed screen I look at other brands and I am envious but I'm not one to swap and change and have faith canon will make the right decisions. 

There are so many applications for this simple technology! I find that when looking at my gf photography, she's a beginner but with the 70d some of the angles and compositions she gets with the touch screens just blows my mind, makes me really so proud of her but at the same time jealous because unless you contort your body or sacrifice your comfort you can't get the same shots.

Of corse these things can be solved by using various gear like tripods etc but I don't like using them, they are cumbersome and IMO a lot of the time hinder creativity because it takes so much longer to set up. 

Just my 2 pence.


----------



## danski0224 (Nov 17, 2015)

syder said:


> We've had six 70ds for a couple of years now, with pretty heavy usage by undergraduate students... One of them has a damaged articulating screen. It still works as a screen but doesn't close properly. And its out of warranty and not worth the expense of fixing (its now the last one to go out but is still fully functional).
> 
> I've no idea what the students did to it, but it does suggest it's a point of weakness compared to a fixed screen.
> 
> But then being able to use it for high/low angle shots is really useful at times, so there are plusses and minuses.



More than likely, it was damaged because the camera didn't belong to the person using it.

Yes, an articulating screen is one additional item that could get damaged. Maybe Canon will engineer it so that replacement is relatively painless, or at least doesn't involve dismantling the entire camera and replacing the motherboard...

I would welcome an articulating screen, touch enabled or not.


----------



## pwp (Nov 17, 2015)

tomscott said:


> Pretty dumbfounded by the lack of excitement for this feature and the antiquated views of this forum....(clipped)



+1 Tom...I expected mostly unbridled enthusiasm and that good ol' CR "bring it on" viewpoint. 
I was a bit miffed that the _5D3 _didn't have touch screen. 

Not to worry, I'm sure Canon doesn't include CR in its focus groups. 

-pw


----------



## infared (Nov 17, 2015)

jolyonralph said:


> The big fear from experienced EOS users about adding a touch screen is that Canon will then remove 'unnecessary' buttons and move options to touch-screen only. This would be bad.
> 
> I think that a touch screen would be a good advantage for two reasons only.
> 
> ...



+100
Great suggestion!

Oh...and we still need to keep all the buttons...so that the camera works fluidly without a touch screen. It's just more versatile that way!


----------



## Coldhands (Nov 17, 2015)

Since a few people have asked for experiences with tilt/swivel screen failures, I thought I'd share the following anecdotal evidence...more for entertainment purposes than for the sake of making a point.

Back when I was shooting Olympus (aka the pre-enlightenment) I had the E-3, their top tier camera with ostensibly pro-level build and weather sealing along with a tilt/swivel screen. The camera proved entirely reliable during my time with it, however when it became clear Ollie was giving up on 4/3 DSLRs I chose to sell everything and switch to Canon. It was only during the process of handing over the camera to a buyer that the screen decided to let go. Literally just came apart in the hands. AWKWARD. Luckily, I managed to source some parts to get it fixed and later managed to complete the sale. Still a mystery as to what actually caused it to break.

Obviously I'm not suggesting all t/s screens are a major weakness, but equally it's not beyond the realm of possibility for one to break.

As for my preference, I can't really claim to have missed having the tilt/swivel ability in the ~4 years since switching. That said, I wouldn't complain if my next body came with one. I guess I'm ambivalent.


----------



## sunnyVan (Nov 17, 2015)

The 6d line competes against nikon d750. 5d series competes against d810. D750 already has a flip screen so knowing canon being always a few steps behind they will put a flip screen on a 6d in response. 

Not talking about merits of having a flip screen. Just talking about rumors and chances of it happening. Please be civil to each other guys.


----------



## quod (Nov 17, 2015)

ktatty said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > The issue with an articulating screen on a 5D-class camera was never about fragility, as far as I recall, but more to do with the problems guaranteeing weather sealing.
> ...


Tony Northrup stated that he was caught in a rainstorm and subsequently lost two 5D3s to rain damage, but his GH4s were fine. The GH4s have flippy screens. I don't know the circumstances beyond those details. The take-away is protect your gear because even "pro level" gear with no flippy screen can be breached.


----------



## sanj (Nov 17, 2015)

I would have loved a tilt screen that night.....


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 17, 2015)

tomscott said:


> Pretty dumfounded by the lack of excitement for this feature and the antiquated views of this forum.



Dumbfounding that your personal views of what constitutes a useful or desirable feature are not universally shared? I suggest you get over it. 




tomscott said:


> Of corse these things can be solved by using various gear like tripods etc but I don't like using them, they are cumbersome and IMO a lot of the time hinder creativity because it takes so much longer to set up.



Interesting. Perhaps the creativity of my long exposure blue hour shots and panoramas is hindered by taking the time to set up a tripod...but I doubt it. :


----------



## infared (Nov 17, 2015)

sanj said:


> I would have loved a tilt screen that night.....



Is the elbow brace from carrying the rig around? 
If you had a tilt screen you may need a neck brace too, no?
:


----------



## TAF (Nov 17, 2015)

CanonFanBoy said:


> TAF said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...




That would be the one on my EOS M; I have an optical viewfinder for the camera (they made great stuff 75 years ago) to make it more user friendly for my style of operation.

Clearly not how it was intended to be used, and having read that the 70D is smart enough to disable the screen when you hold the camera to your eye, it sounds like Canon already anticipates the issue.

I like the suggestion of having a menu for touch screen control. Makes a lot of sense.


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 17, 2015)

Funny. The commentators who wouldn't be caught with a flip-phone are hyperventilating about how kewl the swivel/tilt screen is. 

And if we think the flip screen is a gimmick, we are antiquated amateurs who never tried one? 

Another repeated theme seems to be those of us who have no use for a flip screen didn't want AF? That simply reveals the silliness of whoever typed it.

If you depend on cameras to make money and memories from STILL IMAGES, a flip screen and touch screen are two marginally (at best!) useful features that only increase the chance of down time.

For video, certainly, a flip screen is very important, but a dedicated rig that is parked on a tripod (for use there or to be taken off and used on the fly) is much better. Trying to compose stills in moderately low light at a wedding or other ceremony with a flip screen will miss many, many great moments.

I'm having a hard time imagining an event photographer using one--unless you are holding the camera over your head to get over the crowd at a concert. And if that is your best vantage point, you are simply an audience member, not covering the event.

I don't want enthusiasts to be without their toys, but on a pro body, which is what the post is about, give me performance, durability, and reliability. Elegant simplicity is what I LOVE about the 5DIII design.

What I'd like to see in the 5D4 has already been covered by many excellent suggestions in those threads. But most importantly, a bit cleaner at ISO 2500 - 128000, wider spread of AF points, a little faster shots per second, AF points that stay lit and easily visible in all settings and conditions...

Better than a flip for high tripod work or other awkward positions would be seamless integration with a smart phone or tablet. This would be on a tripod, of course, but how many of us are going to be holding a pro-body with a heavy lens over head and grabbing moments with a flip screen? Seriously!


----------



## sanj (Nov 17, 2015)

Infared.  The elbow (and knee) brace are my ultimate photography tools. They let me go on my elbows and knees quickly without strain...


----------



## mrsfotografie (Nov 17, 2015)

infared said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > I would have loved a tilt screen that night.....
> ...



Proper use of the elbow brace would have secured a better place in the crowd ;D


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 17, 2015)

This is one of the most lively threads in a while!


----------



## infared (Nov 17, 2015)

sanj said:


> Infared.  The elbow (and knee) brace are my ultimate photography tools. They let me go on my elbows and knees quickly without strain...


Oh good! You took my comment in the vain it was given! FOR A LAUGH! YAY!
Hope that there are no real health issues! ;D


----------



## mrsfotografie (Nov 17, 2015)

Oh and top put in my 2 cents...

I think tilt-screens are useful and though they do take away from the robustness of the camera body, they're better than flip-screens. I find I use the tilt-screen a lot on my Sony Alpha 6000.

I don't care for touchscreens so I'll switch off that function.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Nov 17, 2015)

As well as my Canon gear I have an Olympus OM-D E-M10 and the tilting screen with touch controls is well engineered and a joy to use. Sometimes I like to go low with my cameras in Landscape the 6D is OK because I can use wi-fi and my iPhone to see live view & even take the picture however that option doesnt exist for the 5DS so a £3000 camera is limited in viewing heights. I dont buy the weather sealing crap if we can do it on Motion Picture cameras that are NOT weather sealed then why not on a 5D?? camera. 
THe sensitivity of the sensor is a different issue the two are not exclusively linked but an upgrade to 28MP would be a good sweet spot & more DR would be nice.


----------



## scyrene (Nov 17, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > Pretty dumfounded by the lack of excitement for this feature and the antiquated views of this forum.
> ...



In fairness Neuro, I don't think it's the opposition to certain features so much as the basis of that opposition - opponents don't seem to have any good reason or evidence to object to the addition of features that they can just choose to disable/ignore (sounds rather like people who resent their DSLR having video functionality).

Disclosure: I happen to be neutral on the subject of flip screens, as I've never used one and not felt like I needed one (but as I get older, could imagine kneeling and squatting and crouching to photograph macro subject especially would be helped by one); the EOS-M touchscreen is good, and I'd have nothing against them adding that functionality, but again it doesn't bother me either way.


----------



## Sporgon (Nov 17, 2015)

The fact that a tilt / swivel screen compromises the structural integrity of the camera in indisputable. How relevant that is though is open to discussion. 

I'm fully aware of the benefits of a swivel screen. I say swivel because a tilt only screen is useless for portrait orientation ! And that's how I shoot panoramics. Being able to look down onto the screen to compose is, for me, an advantage. 

On the other hand a camera that has been built to stand the rough and tumble of use under stress shouldn't, in my opinion, have a feature that can be snapped off, just like a pop up flash. 

I guess that on a soft camera such as the 6D a swivel screen makes as much sense as on a 70D; that is useful, not only for viewing orientation, but for folding the screen away for protection. You know how bad a scratched screen is. Does anyone really think that a genuine pro who uses the camera as a working tool is bothered about a scratch on the rear screen ? 

If touch screen doesn't create any resilience issues, and be switched off I don't see how this could harm the 5DIV. But a swivel screen on that camera ? Hmmm, not so sure. Perhaps you'd be better off with the 6DII which will probably have one.


----------



## IVS (Nov 17, 2015)

The way I see things is that there are quite a few full frame camera options from Canon without a swivel screen. Would be a nice addition I'd surely appreciate in my reptile photography work.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 17, 2015)

scyrene said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > tomscott said:
> ...



Perhaps...but how do you disable or ignore an articulating screen? I'm actually in favor of a touchscreen (with the option to disable), it makes image review (zooming and navigating the zoomed image to check focus) much more efficient. However, the risk/concern is that more and more functionality will be shifted to that touchscreen...perhaps exclusively to that touchscreen with a concomitant elimination of manual controls (buttons and dials). 

Oh, but buttons and dials are so antiquated... :


----------



## infared (Nov 17, 2015)

scyrene said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > tomscott said:
> ...



...but I DO resent my DSLR having video functionality...!!!!!! I always have!!!!! :-X
If you need video...please see below! LOL!~ (I say this tongue & cheek...my DSLR would be much cheaper and not have functions that I NEVER use..but I realize that I am in the minority and will not be able to fight the market...although...Salmon do swim upstream to spawn, now don't they ).


----------



## sanj (Nov 17, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> Funny. The commentators who wouldn't be caught with a flip-phone are hyperventilating about how kewl the swivel/tilt screen is.
> 
> And if we think the flip screen is a gimmick, we are antiquated amateurs who never tried one?
> 
> ...



Funny. To me it seems like you are the one hyperventilating. Seriously!


----------



## Zv (Nov 17, 2015)

Touchscreen, swivel screen, flip screen. Whatever, I'll take it. I don't see what the fuss is about. It's nice to have these things but we can get by without too. 

I often find myself tapping the screen of my 6D and then realizing it's just a regular screen. It's hard to not think of screens being touchscreen these days so yeah it is about time we got touchscreens. Though with the addition of WiFi (assuming it gets WiFi) wouldn't your smartphone double as a wireless LCD screen thus eliminating the need for this? 

Does look pretty cool on the Nikon D750 I must admit. Haven't heard of those snapping off, have we?


----------



## ashmadux (Nov 17, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> Nooooo...
> 
> The more gimmicks, the less chance of a sensor breakthrough.
> 
> Ok, maybe I could live with A rugged well executed touch screen. But a flip screen is just a hazard.



A touch screen was never a gimmick. 

Others say more than 12mp is a gimmick too. It's kind of crazy I feel. 

Touch screen and swivel screens are incredibly useful in actual production. I would love to have a 70d again. and the g5 build quality is just sweet.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Nov 17, 2015)

Maximilian said:


> And I also don't like finger marks on a fixed touch screen where I'd like to see the sharpness of a pic.



The screens of my 5D3 and 7D2 often get nose marks, in particular when I protected my face with suncream 8). Doesn't bother me, just wipe them off...

As many others posted here, I'd appreciate a flippy tilty touch screen if really rugged enough for wildlife and nature. But on top of my list would be other improvements first for the 5D4, e.g. selective metering for every AF sensor point, not only the center one.


----------



## roxics (Nov 17, 2015)

Flippy floppy screens really are useful paired with an eyecup. I'm shooting b-cam at a business conference here. 
The 5D would be great with the extra light sensitivity and the ability to go full frame for stills, but it's a pain to work with compared to a 60/70D. I shouldn't have to sacrifice functionality moving to a higher end camera like that.


----------



## George D. (Nov 17, 2015)

I'm glad this rumor is a CR1 which means it will probably never materialize. 

Now if some users prefer having what in film days was that gizmo pictured below better ask for interchangeable viewfinders and let the rest of us be.


----------



## tomscott (Nov 17, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > Pretty dumfounded by the lack of excitement for this feature and the antiquated views of this forum.
> ...



As usually nero your comments are extremely helpful in this argument. 

I make my living as a wedding and event photographer so I'm just giving my opinion and seen as the camera is aimed at professionals in this field that is my opinion.


----------



## ignomini (Nov 17, 2015)

lidocaineus said:


> I registered JUST to say this:
> 
> For all you people who think tillable and/or articulating screens are delicate or weaken a body, all I have to say is you must have very limited shooting experience.
> 
> ...


I'm not worried about it breaking off, I'm worried about it having a smaller screen area, and making the camera fatter. If you want a TV camera, buy a mirrorless camera or a point and shoot. Please Canon, please leave the floppy screens to the consumer products, and concentrate on still image quality for the high end stuff.


----------



## mdflare (Nov 17, 2015)

lidocaineus said:


> I registered JUST to say this:
> 
> For all you people who think tillable and/or articulating screens are delicate or weaken a body, all I have to say is you must have very limited shooting experience.
> 
> ...



 Exactly my thoughts. 
I switched from a 60D to a 6D and I miss it so much. Regardless of new specs if the 6DII would have a movable screen like the 60 i would get it. Here just some of the myriad situations i missed it:
-every single time close or on the ground or above water
-Handholding overhead (with or without stative). Video in general.
-checking night-sky pictures after long exposure without having to tilt the camera to be able to view the screen better. (long time exposure and 180cm high stative to look on the screen is not the best idea when its very windy)
-framing pictures when the camera is back to back with a wall or rock
-Camera literally too far away to see anything when the screen is not facing you
-this is just a gimmick: selfies/group-selfies.

A good way how i feel about it is that it is usefull in every situation where the use of the camera is not plain boring in front of your nose.

to all the people who say “use the smartphone or tablet” I say: give, carry and reload all the batteries wlan devours while doing that.

great pictures to all !

(I´m sorry if i butchered some grammar in the post)


----------



## sanj (Nov 17, 2015)

infared said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Infared.  The elbow (and knee) brace are my ultimate photography tools. They let me go on my elbows and knees quickly without strain...
> ...



Am always for a good laugh. No, no real health issues. Wait, let me ask my shrink...


----------



## unfocused (Nov 17, 2015)

tomscott said:


> As usually nero your comments are extremely helpful in this argument.
> 
> I make my living as a wedding and event photographer so I'm just giving my opinion and seen as the camera is aimed at professionals in this field that is my opinion.



Yes, sometimes sarcasm is warranted. But responding to every post with sarcasm, especially when there is no substance to or justification for it, just seems childish.

Like you, Tom, I'm a little dumbfounded that people on this forum (which skews well off the norm when it comes to technology fascination) can be so technology resistant when it comes to change. Neither touchscreens nor flip screens are new or untested technologies. In fact, touchscreens have become the norm in almost every other area. It's about time the technology is incorporated into camera bodies.


----------



## scyrene (Nov 17, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Buttons and dials are essential of course, and I'd be among the many who'd oppose any dumbing down in that regard. As for the swivel... I guess people are saying you can stow it against the body so it's in the same place as a fixed screen. No chance of it snapping off. As for weather sealing, people seem to disagree - it should be possible in principle, but then what the term means is hard to pin down anyway.

Incidentally, the thing I found the EOS-M's touchscreen does particularly well (and better than buttons) is trimming video clips. Much faster and more intuitive, I seem to recall.


----------



## onlyme (Nov 17, 2015)

To me the tilt aspect of the feature would bring into question the robustness of this camera. I wouldn't be bothered either way on the touch screen feature as long as it can be switched off.


----------



## unfocused (Nov 17, 2015)

Weathersealing is really a non-issue. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that buttons and dials, which must be flexible and therefore cannot be completely sealed, are a much bigger challenge than a simple hinge that can have the wiring routed inside and sealed off.


----------



## gunship01 (Nov 17, 2015)

scyrene said:


> gunship01 said:
> 
> 
> > I would have to think Canon's efforts are best spent on making the sharpest pictures (IQ, low light, sensor, ISO) possible and leave the gimmicks to the lower tiered series (7 and 6). I cannot imagine many wedding photographers needing to shoot too many pictures from the hip and not look through the viewfinder.
> ...



I would say it is not a feature germane to taking a good picture. Many arguments are made for a good sensor to capture light. A flip screen is not an essential part of that equation. One individual did say it makes a difference in close quarters. OK, agree there, but that might be the exception rather than what a majority of photographers might use their systems for. 

In my opinion, its light, focus, and composure. Flip screen could help with the latter of the three, but as I have a basic outlook of photography, it is (for me) about the aforementioned three points. A desire for a product to have certain features is one of a personal nature and I have never disparaged those who want over 50 megs for each landscape shot; those who want something to shoot 15 FPS; nor those who want useable prints with ISO setting above 4000. To each their own as we all hypothesize about what is the box labeled "5D4" or "1DX M2". To make it personal by suggesting my views are "snobbish" is unwarranted.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 17, 2015)

Stewart K said:


> From reading the last 6 pages one thing occurs to me, the people who are damning the flip/touch screen have never actually tried one which is obvious from the comments (will it change settings as you raise it to the face to take a shot for instance), so it’s the usual much ado about nothing.
> I have a 70D and the touch screen is invaluable, it makes changing settings a rapid experience, I have also never read a single “_my flip screen broke_” thread on here (or elsewhere) so to my knowledge it’s all win win. It’s the one small thing I miss while using my 5DIII, but the FF advantages need no discussion here!



Yup, you are 100% correct. The best feature on my 70D is the articulating touch screen. When I got my 5D Mark III I realized how great an idea the screen on the 70D is.

People keep talking about missing buttons, etc. Heck, they are all there, just in a different form. 

For all the doom and gloom talk about Canon being slow to add new tech a person would think the articulating touch screen would be a welcomed technology. Instead, we get people talking about how horrible the idea is who have not even tried it out. They imagine problems that don't exist and making problems up out of thin air.

I think the articulating touch screen makes things far easier... from shooting at awkward angles to changing the settings.

This thread has been an eye opener for me. I understand that sometimes people are resistant to change, however, I never realized people would just imagine things that have no basis in their experience / reality.

Like anything else a touch screen can fail, but so can mechanical buttons.

Should the "touch" feature of the touch screen fail on my 70D the camera is still fully functional through the buttons and vice versa. Imagine that! A camera with a backup plan!

People should quit just making things up. Go rent a 70D and see that the boogeyman is sometimes ourselves.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 17, 2015)

infared said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > The big fear from experienced EOS users about adding a touch screen is that Canon will then remove 'unnecessary' buttons and move options to touch-screen only. This would be bad.
> ...



You guys crack me up. Go rent a 70D.


----------



## Luds34 (Nov 17, 2015)

danski0224 said:


> syder said:
> 
> 
> > We've had six 70ds for a couple of years now, with pretty heavy usage by undergraduate students... One of them has a damaged articulating screen. It still works as a screen but doesn't close properly. And its out of warranty and not worth the expense of fixing (its now the last one to go out but is still fully functional).
> ...



That is exactly what I was thinking when I read that.


----------



## PureClassA (Nov 17, 2015)

Wow guys. 9 Pages of posts about a CR1. Sweet ;D :


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 17, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> And if we think the flip screen is a gimmick, we are antiquated amateurs who never tried one?



Of course. We all know that to succeed as a product, the 5DIV must be a FF mirrorless camera with a flippy screen, WiFi, GPS and 15 stops of DR. Anything less is just outdated and will only appeal to old fuddy-duddies, not to the enlightened and progressive trendsetters and Internet camera reviewers. 




YuengLinger said:


> I don't want enthusiasts to be without their toys, but on a pro body, which is what the post is about, give me performance, durability, and reliability. Elegant simplicity is what I LOVE about the 5DIII design.



IMO*, a touchscreen would fit nicely into that description. A tilt or fully articulating screen, not so much. 


* Note by including the abbreviation for 'in my opinion,' I definitively distinguish the associated statement(s) from anything else I may post that may not necessarily be an opinion despite being a clearly non-factual statement posted by one person on the Internet. Furthermore, labeling a statement 'IMO' categorically absolves me of responsibility for any issues readers may take with that statement.


----------



## infared (Nov 17, 2015)

roxics said:


> Flippy floppy screens really are useful paired with an eyecup. I'm shooting b-cam at a business conference here.
> The 5D would be great with the extra light sensitivity and the ability to go full frame for stills, but it's a pain to work with compared to a 60/70D. I shouldn't have to sacrifice functionality moving to a higher end camera like that.


Keep moving.
Buy a video camera. ;D (see below)


----------



## pedro (Nov 17, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Wow guys. 9 Pages of posts about a CR1. Sweet ;D :



 I was about to say: Craig's site is prone to be down for days due to the tremendous response, once the 5DIV gets announced if we can discuss so much at the mention of a rumored swivel screen 8)


----------



## infared (Nov 17, 2015)

sanj said:


> infared said:
> 
> 
> > sanj said:
> ...


That requires a head pad (see below!), or a straight jacket and rubber room! The head pad could be a win/win as your shrink could be happy and your general practitioner will be happy, too, as it could also protect you from injury by the flippy screen! Also...your nose will NEVER cause any smears on that screen (flippy or not!), ever again.


----------



## romanr74 (Nov 17, 2015)

if it has an articulating screen this is the end of my 5d saga...


----------



## infared (Nov 17, 2015)

CanonFanBoy said:


> You guys crack me up. Go rent a 70D.



Why would I do that? I have a 5DMark III???? LOL!


----------



## Famateur (Nov 17, 2015)

sunnyVan said:


> I think WiFi functionality would be enough to address low angle shooting. I'd take Wifi over flip screen.



Disclaimer: I acknowledge that each will have his/her own preference, and that my opinion is just that. 

Having used both WiFi with EOS remote and articulating touch screen extensively, I would take the articulating touch screen _any day of the week_ over WiFi control via tablet/phone. WiFi with EOS remote has its uses and is appreciated, but it is simply too cumbersome, awkward and tedious to be practical (let alone enjoyable) in most of my shooting situations. It just doesn't even come close.

It you're shooting landscape or architecture or things that don't move, or animals you can't get close to, and you have enough time, and you have enough hands (or brackets?), WiFi and EOS remote will work. For most anything else, I just can't be bothered with:

1. Turning on WiFi ('cause leaving it on all the time drains battery)
2. Launching EOS remote, connecting device.
3. Holding/looking-at remote device to compose while positioning camera/lens.
4. Dealing with the lag between what's happening and what you see on the remote device.
5. Having no free hand (or having to add the bulk of a bracket to have a free hand).
6. Remembering to turn WiFi off when done with the shot that needs it.
7. Rinsing/repeating when low/high/odd angle is needed again.
8. And a whole gaggle of other potential hassles...

Versus:

1. Flip-out the screen to desired orientation.
2. Press Live View button.
3. Touch to focus. Immediately.
4. Take the shot(s).
5. Close the screen.

The articulating touch screen is simply a joy to use.

Just my opinion...


----------



## ahsanford (Nov 17, 2015)

infared said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > You guys crack me up. Go rent a 70D.
> ...



_...to test drive the flipscreen, silly. _

Forget the sensor size for a minute: wouldn't it be nice to shoot handheld six inches off the ground without needing to lie down and get dirty or wet? You can preview what that would be like with a 70D rental, that's all he's saying.

- A


----------



## infared (Nov 17, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> infared said:
> 
> 
> > CanonFanBoy said:
> ...



Oh...(poking fun here)....I use my Olympus OM-D EM-5 Mark II when I get down and dirty with my flippy screen. Can shoot 40mp, too!


----------



## a4jp.com (Nov 17, 2015)

unfocused said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > And I also don't like finger marks on a fixed touch screen where I'd like to see the sharpness of a pic.
> ...



I agree too, but you could get some of those thin gloves with the touch screen sensitive finger tips to get rid of the fingerprint problem.

This is gonna be so cool. It will be great being to pinch zoom to check the focus. Also nice being able to flip around the screen to protect it, if I chuck the camera in a backpack or regular bag.

Canon also please release the imagePROGRAF PRO-1000 printer here in Japan. 
I hope it can print border-less business card stock. If it does it will be the best printer ever. 

Looks like I'm gonna be spending a lot of money soon.

Hopefully having everyone buy these type of products is gonna pull Japan out of the recession too ^^


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 17, 2015)

infared said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > infared said:
> ...



Haha! I have a 5D mark III too. The only thing that could make it better for me at this point in my shooting skill is an articulating touch screen. I'm an old man and the screen makes things so much easier. Better than blowing out my knees for sure.


----------



## Famateur (Nov 17, 2015)

romanr74 said:


> if it has an articulating screen this is the end of my 5d saga...



And the beginning of mine. 

Otherwise I keep using my 70D until I find out if there will be a 6DII with an articulating touch screen...


----------



## verysimplejason (Nov 17, 2015)

TWI by Dustin Abbott said:


> lidocaineus said:
> 
> 
> > I registered JUST to say this:
> ...



So true. I've been in-love of my wife's G11 due to its articulating screen. I frame better when using the articulating screen while doing macro. I also hate crawling or lying in the ground just to get a shot.


----------



## scyrene (Nov 17, 2015)

infared said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Indeed they do. I believe most of the salmon die up there


----------



## sunnyVan (Nov 17, 2015)

Famateur said:


> sunnyVan said:
> 
> 
> > I think WiFi functionality would be enough to address low angle shooting. I'd take Wifi over flip screen.
> ...



I don't disagree with your point that wifi is cumbersome to use. I just wanted to point out that the chance of canon putting a flip screen on a 5d seems remote to me unless nikon does it first. If nikon puts one on the next d800 series canon may follow. Wifi seems to me to be more plausible to show up on the 5d series. At least it's not going to get polarizing responses. And wifi functionality like you said is good enough for some situations. 

If canon surprises me by adding a flip screen on a 5d, i certainly welcome it. Used it plenty of times when i had a m3 and a sony a7.


----------



## sunnyVan (Nov 17, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Wow guys. 9 Pages of posts about a CR1. Sweet ;D :



Lol. I don't get why people get emotional about a flip screen either. Not going to be a critical deciding factor for my purchase. If it's there I'll use it. If it's not there I'll make do.


----------



## ahsanford (Nov 17, 2015)

sunnyVan said:


> I don't disagree with your point that wifi is cumbersome to use. I just wanted to point out that the chance of canon putting a flip screen on a 5d seems remote to me unless nikon does it first. If nikon puts one on the next d800 series canon may follow. Wifi seems to me to be more plausible to show up on the 5d series. At least it's not going to get polarizing responses. And wifi functionality like you said is good enough for some situations.
> 
> If canon surprises me by adding a flip screen on a 5d, i certainly welcome it. Used it plenty of times when i had a m3 and a sony a7.



That would imply that the 5D3 (and 5D4) are in the same market segment as the D810. It's not such a simple market lineup any more:

Nikon:

D610 = good
D750 = better
D810 = best (surely a D820 or D900 with that A7R II sensor is coming)

Canon:

6D --> 6D2 = good
5D3 --> 5D4 = all-around workhorse
5DS = good all-around camera, but it shines in a studio or on a tripod

So they don't line up 1 for 1 like things did years ago.

- A


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 17, 2015)

lidocaineus said:


> And have you ever tried to shoot yourself in a group? Do you know how much easier it is to flip a screen 180 degrees and get the framing right in real time?



Hey Eldar - I bet you're wishing for a flippy screen in the 1D X II right about now!! ;D ;D


----------



## scyrene (Nov 17, 2015)

gunship01 said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > gunship01 said:
> ...



Calling it a gimmick is the snobbish bit. I'm not here to have arguments, and as I said above, I'm actually entirely neutral on this particular subject, but dismissing features that you personally don't care for in those terms is exactly that.

Reducing photography to three elements may be useful when learning or teaching technique, but isn't exactly illuminating when it comes to discussions of technical minutiae of future cameras. Since all modern cameras have the ability to expose and focus, and composition is a matter for the user, it's not really relevant. As I've tried to nod towards, and others have said, these features - if implemented soundly - won't compromise your current technique at all. You can ignore them or disable them. You might find them useful in fact. But they aren't taking resources from other areas of development, and they aren't hurting anyone's photography.

In actual fact I'd be surprised to see a mobile screen on the 5D4. A touchscreen I think is much more likely - I was surprised they didn't introduce it in other models, like the 7D2.


----------



## scyrene (Nov 17, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> lidocaineus said:
> 
> 
> > And have you ever tried to shoot yourself in a group? Do you know how much easier it is to flip a screen 180 degrees and get the framing right in real time?
> ...



Oh my ;D

I thought if you looked directly at it, you turned into a lump of fluorite?


----------



## ahsanford (Nov 17, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> lidocaineus said:
> 
> 
> > And have you ever tried to shoot yourself in a group? Do you know how much easier it is to flip a screen 180 degrees and get the framing right in real time?
> ...



If your selfie-stick _needs a gimbal..._ 

- A


----------



## IVS (Nov 17, 2015)

Reading all the pro and con arguments , Canon might consider a 5Dmk4 and a 5Dmk4SW. 
That would feed the goat and yet, remain with some cabbage . Word


----------



## infared (Nov 17, 2015)

scyrene said:


> infared said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



Hmmmm..I was going to use my lone-wolf strategy untill my buddy informed me that healthy wolves run and hunt in packs...they break off and go "lone" when they are ready to die.
OK...let me re-think this.
I still would like to be able to purchase a camera built to be used just for stills...it would be less expensive and perhaps smaller and faster. ...but if I had to ask the people on this page what the features should be, we may be here in development forever! LOL!


----------



## scyrene (Nov 17, 2015)

infared said:


> Hmmmm..I was going to use my lone-wolf strategy untill my buddy informed me that healthy wolves run and hunt in packs...they break off and go "lone" when they are ready to die.
> OK...let me re-think this.
> I still would like to be able to purchase a camera built to be used just for stills...it would be less expensive and perhaps smaller and faster. ...but if I had to ask the people on this page what the features should be, we may be here in development forever! LOL!



Haha! Yeah, lone wolf is an odd phrase when you think about it. Anyway, there's been pages and pages of discussion elsewhere on this - the idea it would be cheaper is at best not proven. Lighter? Well, what about video capability weighs anything? And faster? No idea. But this is to derail an already absurdly obtuse discussion as it is


----------



## Famateur (Nov 17, 2015)

sunnyVan said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > sunnyVan said:
> ...



Fair enough. 

I tend to agree that it might be unlikely for the 5D series to get an articulating screen. While I'm not sure that Canon's decision will be influenced by Nikon, I admit I was thrilled at that (albeit possibly remote) possibility when the D750 launched with fully articulating screen.

One possibility (that is probably also unlikely) is Canon pairing the articulating touch screen with DPAF and 4K to cater to the DSLR video crowd that hopes Canon returns to the 5DII glory days. The Cinema line kinda rains on that dream parade, though...

To be accurate, Canon does not officially classify the 5D as "professional." That distinction is reserved for the 1D series. I can see the articulating touch screen (which is mature, robust and proven) being added to enhance the "all-around" placement of the 5D.

That said, if I were a betting man, I'd put my money on the 6DII (if there will be one) having the articulating touch screen...

Honestly, I just want a full-frame version of my 70D...with a wider (and rectangular) spread of AF points and exposure compensation for Auto ISO in manual mode.


----------



## Famateur (Nov 17, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > lidocaineus said:
> ...



The whole thread was worth it for this exchange. Thank you! ;D ;D


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 17, 2015)

Yep, the last resort of a photographer out of ideas is to get down on the ground for that incredibly unique low level shot.

And this is exactly the consumer flip screens are made for!

''Gimmick''? Is this word now considered a micro-aggression, but ''snobby'' is PC? Revealing...

I've never met an intelligent man without a good sense of humor.


----------



## cayenne (Nov 17, 2015)

TAF said:


> I beg to differ. Ever have your nose trigger a function on a touch screen? Been there, done that.
> 
> Unless I can disable the touch screen, I probably won't be buying.



You could always consider getting a *nose job*....?



cayenne


----------



## ahsanford (Nov 17, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> Yep, the last resort of a photographer out of ideas is to get down on the ground for that incredibly unique low level shot.



_Apparently, it's the first resort of a jerk to mock someone else's needs/sensibilities/desires because they do not share them._ 

It's not about being "out of ideas", it's about the ability to perform simple tasks that a rigid LCD cannot:


Shooting very low to the ground (in a realtime circumstance you lack a tripod or the time to set it up)


Shooting high above your head to see something you are not tall enough to see (a wall, a crowd of people, etc)

You can write those needs off as amateur, not 'serious' photography, etc. but I want to do those things and a flippy screen would trivialize those endeavors.

- A


----------



## rfdesigner (Nov 17, 2015)

I keep wondering if Canon can make the screen detachable.

i.e. built in battery and wifi link to the camera, with say a 30 minute run time when detached, and recharges off the camera battery when reattached.

With wireless charging both screen and camera could be water tight, and if you broke/lost it you just clip on a replacement.

That's got to be the way to do it.

thinking further, you could do an EVF like this too!


----------



## scyrene (Nov 17, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> Yep, the last resort of a photographer out of ideas is to get down on the ground for that incredibly unique low level shot.
> 
> And this is exactly the consumer flip screens are made for!
> 
> ...



You're using the word aggression, nobody else has afaik. And when you find a sense of humour yourself, please feel free to display it here 

Incidentally, as regards low level stuff, it makes me think MACRO before anything else. A lot of interesting tiny subjects are below face height...


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 17, 2015)

scyrene said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Yep, the last resort of a photographer out of ideas is to get down on the ground for that incredibly unique low level shot.
> ...



Sorry the humor was over your head...

The macro event photographers are beside themselves!

I don't think there are any jerks in this thread. Overheated geeks maybe, but no jerks.

What a job Canon has pleasing us all!

Hopefully we won't see a CR1 about a popup flash on the 1DXII! :


----------



## Famateur (Nov 17, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Yep, the last resort of a photographer out of ideas is to get down on the ground for that incredibly unique low level shot.
> ...



Just wanted to take a moment to say that across various threads (and websites, if that's you on SLR Lounge), your comments tend to be well thought out, constructive, open-minded and even-keeled. I enjoy your posts.

Incidentally, I've thoroughly enjoyed using an articulating touch screen for a recent/ongoing gig (portable studio on location, shooting portraits and in-context poses at a martial arts studio). It's more comfortable to view, depending on the tripod height, and touch-to-focus is fast and easy for shots in difficult poses (i.e. can't hold the position correctly for long) and for quickly changing point of focus as the poses change. It also makes it more comfortable to interact with my subjects not having to have my eye up to a viewfinder. So, for what it's worth, it was nice to have the articulating touch screen...on a tripod, shooting tethered, on a set, with no high or low angles.


----------



## mkabi (Nov 17, 2015)

Here is my take:

I know most of us take care of our cameras... we don't... no... we won't drop it. But it does still happen...
I've seen people carelessly leave a camera on a tripod in a crowded hall, where a bunch of kids run across tripping over wires which eventually take down a tripod with a camera on top. I would hate to see a pro camera with an articulating screen fully unfolded to fall side ways. 

With that said, all the plastic non-pro cameras have articulating screens... go with that... it has a pop-up flash built-in too.

You want pro? 
You're going to pay pro-cash for it, $3K-$4K...
Stop being cheap and buy yourself a field monitor if you want low angles. Its the same with flash, buy yourself a proper flash.


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 17, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > YuengLinger said:
> ...


You mean like the 7D2


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 17, 2015)

rfdesigner said:


> I keep wondering if Canon can make the screen detachable.
> 
> i.e. built in battery and wifi link to the camera, with say a 30 minute run time when detached, and recharges off the camera battery when reattached.
> 
> ...


The thing is, if you have WiFi, why not develop a decent Ap for smartphones and tablets where you can mirror the built in touchscreen and even add access to the various buttons.......


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 17, 2015)

mkabi said:


> Here is my take:
> 
> I know most of us take care of our cameras... we don't... no... we won't drop it. But it does still happen...
> I've seen people carelessly leave a camera on a tripod in a crowded hall, where a bunch of kids run across tripping over wires which eventually take down a tripod with a camera on top. I would hate to see a pro camera with an articulating screen fully unfolded to fall side ways.
> ...



"Forgive him father, for he knows not what he is talking about."

Before I bought a 5D mark III I bought my 70D. I have never used the pop-up flash. I've got 7 Canon 600EX-RTs for that and many LED kits and a strobe. Your assumptions are just silly.

The definition of a professional is someone who makes his living doing whatever he does for pay. While a camera may be considered PRO grade it has nothing to do with the person using it.

I am not a professional photographer, but I have a lot of professional grade gear. I'm here to tell you that the articulating touch screen is a professional grade feature tried out first on a consumer grade camera. Just like DPAF and other features. Technology does not always trickle down, sometimes it trickles up. 

If you've never used the technology then you have no idea what you are talking about. To insult others with misplaced purism is caddish behavior.

Now, the people who leave cameras in hallways full of rambunctious children with cords all over the place? Well, there's no accounting for stupidity. Having or not having an articulating screen is not going to fix that. You say you've seen "people" do that. More than one?


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 17, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> rfdesigner said:
> 
> 
> > I keep wondering if Canon can make the screen detachable.
> ...



"DSLR Controller" in the Google App store.


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 17, 2015)

CanonFanBoy said:


> mkabi said:
> 
> 
> > Here is my take:
> ...


+1000

Last week at work I was doing documentation photography in confined spaces. The 7D2 and 5D2 sat idle as the 60D (with articulated screen) got the shots as I was able to fit it into the small spaces. Other shots were done with a GoPro and WiFi control link because that was the camera that could fit into the narrow spaces.

Therefore, the 60D and GoPro are "Pro" cameras while the 5D2 and 7D2 are not..... 

A pro (or an unbiased amateur) will use the right tool for the job and not get caught up in silly debates as to what is a "pro" camera or a "pro" feature.....


----------



## Besisika (Nov 17, 2015)

mkabi said:


> Here is my take:
> 
> I know most of us take care of our cameras... we don't... no... we won't drop it. But it does still happen...
> I've seen people carelessly leave a camera on a tripod in a crowded hall, where a bunch of kids run across tripping over wires which eventually take down a tripod with a camera on top. I would hate to see a pro camera with an articulating screen fully unfolded to fall side ways.
> ...


I used to think that way, I guess it was 6 months ago.
But life changes and I have to keep following that change.
C100 had a half flip screen and everybody was satisfied when they upgraded it to full flip on mark II. Now people are complaining that it is not touch screen, like the 70D
Remember that many use 5D for both stills and video, including myself, and for video these two features seem to become very popular.
I used to think that a field monitor is better because I can choose and can remove and add it as needed, but after working with the C100 I realized how wrong I was. For run and gunner you really want a ready to be used system and adding and removing parts all over the place is not the way to go, which is actually the biggest weakness of the 5D compared to the C100.
I currently use a field monitor, voice recorder, camranger and a follow focus while my friend uses a 70D. I need 30min to have all connected while he needs 2min. So far, I stick with mine because it is full frame.
You may say, why don't you go with the C100?
Because I am most of all a photographer. Video is an added value and if Canon is convinced that these added values keep them competitive then I see no reason not to add them. Pro cameras have flip screen, why not the 5D?
Hopefully the 1DX II won't have it so that sport photog can have their piece of mind.
That is my take.


----------



## StudentOfLight (Nov 17, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > mkabi said:
> ...


Don you're the PROfessor of Light


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 17, 2015)

The one annoying assertion in this thread is that those of us who oppose a flip screen on the 5DIV have never used a flip-screen, thus our distaste and distain.

Those of you assuming this apparently have used a flip-screen and believe anybody who doesn't like it is ignorant or reactionary.

Wrong assumptions about human nature point to missing a lot of precious moments because you simply don't recognize them. Or you are adjusting your flip screen. ;D


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 17, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> The one annoying assertion in this thread is that those of us who oppose a flip screen on the 5DIV have never used a flip-screen, thus our distaste and distain.
> 
> Those of you assuming this apparently have used a flip-screen and believe anybody who doesn't like it is ignorant or reactionary.
> 
> Wrong assumptions about human nature point to missing a lot of precious moments because you simply don't recognize them. Or you are adjusting your flip screen. ;D



You: 1. "You do have to use the touch screen if canon has removed the buttons!

2. Flip screens are for kids with toy cameras, seriously." 

3. You also said it isn't a core improvement, just a "gimmick."

1. The buttons are not removed. There is still full control through buttons on all current Canon DSLR models. Thus your ignorance and probable non-use, or extremely passive use of any flip screen on a Canon. If you used a 70D you certainly were completely unfamiliar re: the buttons.

Nobody really cares whether you like the screen or not. Just know what you are talking about or ask somebody who does.

2. Name the toy cameras with touch flip screens. First define "toy" cameras.

3. Not a core improvement? That statement is just laughable. Those of us who use it know better. It is a fantastic core improvement. 

Nobody cares whether you like it or not. Just know we can spot a troll when we see one.

Somebody else made the misinformed remark that a flip touch screen would change settings as his nose touched it.

Someone else suggested the camera could not be weather sealed.

Now you suggest that it is we, the users of the tech, who are misinformed as to your use or that of others. Nope. Your statements earlier in the thread prove your ignorance on the matter. You may have tried out a flip touch screen, but you certainly did not know everything can still be controlled through buttons. You are a smart man, however, you are ignorant concerning this.


----------



## jolyonralph (Nov 18, 2015)

If the new 5D IV had a touch screen and a flip screen then I can't see how anyone could object if:

a) the touchscreen can be disabled without losing any traditional functionality (ie, all normal operations can still be carried out with buttons)

b) the flip mechanism can be fully weather sealed.


The only concern that hasn't yet been answered by the pro-flippy people here is what would happen with the five buttons that are currently on the left of the screen on the 5D III. The concern is that moving them elsewhere could end up being an ergonomic nightmare. And judging by Canon's ergonomic mess of the controls on the EOS M3 I wouldn't say it's guaranteed they'll come up with a satisfactory solution.

But, I do agree that if it does become touchy-flippy a lot of the haters will eventually secretly love it once they get used to it.


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 18, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> The one annoying assertion in this thread is that those of us who oppose a flip screen on the 5DIV have never used a flip-screen, thus our distaste and distain.
> 
> Those of you assuming this apparently have used a flip-screen and believe anybody who doesn't like it is ignorant or reactionary.
> 
> Wrong assumptions about human nature point to missing a lot of precious moments because you simply don't recognize them. Or you are adjusting your flip screen. ;D


I find that the annoying assertion in this thread is that people on both sides of the question assume that their preference is right.

Personally, my preference depends on what I am doing at the time.

I really like the solid simplicity of a fixed screen when shooting action.
I like the flexibility of an articulated screen when shooting at awkward angles.
I LOVE! WiFi control when set up at a bird feeder.
WiFi control is fantastic for setups like shooting musicians remotely (they hate it when you walk on stage)
Tethered is wonderful for studio work.....
I don't use live-view much, but when I do, I think it's wonderful.
Touch screens.... not much experience there.... I pass on judgement.

I like to have all the tools available for me to use and to pick and chose the tool that best meets my needs for the conditions that I am dealing with. I think that it is silly and shortsighted to malign a tool because you don't use it. You don't like touchscreens? Turn it off! You don't like WiFi? Don't use it! You don't like articulated screens? leave it in the closed position. Don't deny others their choice because it is not your choice....

And remember, features sell cameras. The better it sells, the more profitable Canon becomes and the more likely you are to get pricing advantages from bigger production runs.


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 18, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > The one annoying assertion in this thread is that those of us who oppose a flip screen on the 5DIV have never used a flip-screen, thus our distaste and distain.
> ...



Excellent points, Don.

In my experience, however, the flip screen significantly changes the tight, solid feel of a body. On a second camera, fine, but on a primary body, such as the upcoming 5D4, I'm hoping this rumor is not true.


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 18, 2015)

CanonFanBoy said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > The one annoying assertion in this thread is that those of us who oppose a flip screen on the 5DIV have never used a flip-screen, thus our distaste and distain.
> ...



First, tossing out the term "troll" diminishes an otherwise good post. This is a lively thread with strong opinions. If I disagree with you, I'm not a troll, racist, homophobe, hater, or whatever. 

Second, I'm not talking about touch screen cameras on existing cameras! We are talking about the as yet hypothetical features of a new 5D4, and if I had to rely on touch INSTEAD of buttons that currently give me enough tactile feedback to locate and know have been pressed, I'd pass on such a camera.

I've had a 60D for nearly four years. I've found the touch FLIP screen useful in a few situations, certainly, but as stated before, I much prefer a body without a hinged flip-screen that changes ergonomics and tightness and adds a weak point.

A core improvement is not tacking on a feature that has existed in various forms on toyish bodies for years. And, yes, I consider the 60D toyish compared to a 5D3. It was a step down from previous XXD bodies, and it was made of all plastic. But I bought it as a fun camera at a great price. And it takes some excellent photos.

What is a toy? A toy is something bought for pleasure, to play with. Is an RC car or plane a toy? Talk to a fanatic and they might tell you it is not.

Cameras are more of a gray area. Many people buy them as toys and slowly learn to use them as tools. If they bought a camera that is marketed towards play rather than work, they might want to upgrade and find a more useful tool.

Why get offended if somebody calls a Rebel a toy when comparing it to a 5DIII or 1DX? It is. Of course compared to a point and shoot from the 80's, a Rebel can be seen as a high tech tool.

Yes, I've replied somewhat facetiously in posts, but in response to those who, without knowing a thing about photographers who object to a feature start blabbing about how we are ignorant and hate AF, IS, or any other feature we craved before it was widely adopted.

I've made my opinion clear about the flip screen. You've kind of gotten lost in some posting etiquette quandary of your own making.

Canon will decide which bodies get flip-screens. Or already has. Hopefully they will not mask a lack of core improvements with gimmicks. Why is that opinion so offensive to you?

Name calling certainly doesn't make a case; it just makes you feel you have some ability to silence somebody you cannot debate. Which is why your use of the word "troll" is so odd--you were otherwise making a good case for you desire to see a flip-screen on a 5Dx or even higher body. A stinging rebuke is far different from a cliché label that pretty much went out of fashion last decade. 

The problem on forums today, more than ever because of multitasking while looking at a tiny smartphone screen, is people don't really read or think while they are reading. And so they get insulted and bent out of shape about a fragment of a post or thread.

And really this is a fun thread! Sense of humor is at such a premium! Are you so worried that those who disagree with you are going to sway Canon and ruin your photography? :-\

Lighten up! We are alive and have enough resources to have some kind of camera.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 18, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > YuengLinger said:
> ...



Then if you have a 60D you know it does not have the touch screen you say it does. There you go again.

And wasn't it you who said that flip screen were for kids with toy cameras? No, you wouldn't call names at all.

Frankly, I couldn't care less what you would or would not prefer. I really don't. Just know what you are talking about, be honest, and don't lie.

That 60D touch screen? Wow.


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 18, 2015)

"Then if you have a 60D you know it does not have the touch screen you say it does. There you go again.

And wasn't it you who said that flip screen were for kids with toy cameras? No, you wouldn't call names at all.

Frankly, I couldn't care less what you would or would not prefer. I really don't. Just know what you are talking about, be honest, and don't lie.

That 60D touch screen? Wow."

Good catch, CanonFanBoy. My mistake. Typo. I meant flip-screen, as you can see reading the full sentence; that is what I HOPE the 5DIV does not have. I've been talking about flip screens mostly, but I also don't want a FUTURE camera that REPLACES buttons with touch only.

We who oppose the flip have just as much right to be passionate as those who desire it!


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 18, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> "Then if you have a 60D you know it does not have the touch screen you say it does. There you go again.
> 
> And wasn't it you who said that flip screen were for kids with toy cameras? No, you wouldn't call names at all.
> 
> ...



Yup, they do have just as much right. I have no problem with that. Just don't make stuff up. Honest disagreement is fine.

The silly part of this whole thread is people objecting to something and making up completely bogus objections like, "Nose changing settings." or not having control via buttons or having to use the touch screen. It just is not true.

I've had the T5i and currently have the 70D (and 5D mark III) Both the T5i and 70D work flawlessly. Both can be controlled via touch screen or buttons.

I bought everything I have for pleasure. They are all toys.


----------



## The Flasher (Nov 18, 2015)

TWI by Dustin Abbott said:


> lidocaineus said:
> 
> 
> > I registered JUST to say this:
> ...



All of the above. And I'll raise you dual, identical card slots.


----------



## roxics (Nov 18, 2015)

What's the possibility that Canon will release two versions of the 5DmkIV? We already have the 5DmkIII, 5DS and 5DS R. I could potentially see them bringing the concept of the 1D C down to the 5D line and making a 5D C. At a premium price of course. Maybe even upwards of the same cost of a C100mkII. Then you'd have the choice of the more video ergonomic C100mkII at HD resolution in APS-C or the 5D C with 4K resolution in FF that can also shoot 12MP stills. 

While they didn't change the body design on the 1D C compared to the 1D X, maybe the 5D C would have the flip out screen (and not the regular 5DmkIV) as it's more video oriented and maybe that's where this rumor stems from. I'm guessing here of course. Personally I don't think it's true because they would want to streamline their manufacturing process by making the bodies virtually the same like the 1D X and C. I also don't think that higher price would make a lot of people happy who want a 5DmkIV with all the bells and whistles I've described for the 5D C but at the traditional 5D price. I fall into that camp mysef. But Canon has a history of upping the price. So even if both cameras have the flip out screen, mostly because the C model benefits from the screen so the mkIV gets it by default as a result to save cost, there could still be a difference in sensors and software that make for a cost difference to the end user.


----------



## roxics (Nov 18, 2015)

All of that said, maybe they just pull a Nikon D750 and put a tilt screen on the 5DmkIV and not a flip out screen. There seems to be this perception that tilt screens are more rugged and maybe that's true to a degree, although I've personally never broken a flip out screen or seen anyone who has. So I think that's more a perception issue than anything. Although there is something to be said about being able to tilt without having to flip out first. Personally I don't like the tilt as much, but it's still an improvement over a fixed screen IMO.


----------



## sanj (Nov 18, 2015)

unfocused said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > As usually nero your comments are extremely helpful in this argument.
> ...



Yes


----------



## sanj (Nov 18, 2015)

If the tilt screen requires some adjustment to button placements, so be it. I can work around that for the benefit of the tilt screen. 
Sooner or later tilt/touch screens will be part of most cameras.


----------



## Ryananthony (Nov 18, 2015)

Im leaning towards the 5d4 having the same button lay out as the 5d3. With the release of the 7d2 having the same exact button lay out (minus the autofocus point selection lever.) I just don't see them switching the body style when I'm sure the 7d2 will be paired will a lot of 5d4s in a bag, as I'm sure a lot are now with the 5d3


----------



## K-amps (Nov 18, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Nooooo...
> ...



+1: Flippy screens are much helpful (as are touch screens) in Astro and Macro work. I am sure there are other uses as well. If you are scared of breaking it, keep it closed. ... Rather turn it around. Didn't Northrup or someone ruin 2 5d3's in rain, but the Tilty screened Olympus survived?

If Canon are the ones saying that it will affect weather sealing, etc. Please ask them to tear down an Olympus. I would not put much stock into an organization who is trying to make money, and we all know tilty/touchy screens reduce margins...


----------



## tapanit (Nov 18, 2015)

unfocused said:


> There is no legitimate reason to object to a touch screen -- just myths. The only legitimate reason to object to a flip screen is that the hinge takes up additional real estate on the back of the camera, so the right-side buttons would need to be relocated.


Yes.

If given a choice between two otherwise identical 5DIV models, I'd be willing to pay a fair amount more for one with a flip screen.


----------



## K-amps (Nov 18, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> gunship01 said:
> 
> 
> > I would have to think Canon's efforts are best spent on making the sharpest pictures (IQ, low light, sensor, ISO) possible and leave the gimmicks to the lower tiered series (7 and 6). I cannot imagine many wedding photographers needing to shoot too many pictures from the hip and not look through the viewfinder.
> ...



That put a smile on my face. Well said!


----------



## sanj (Nov 18, 2015)

mkabi said:


> Here is my take:
> 
> I know most of us take care of our cameras... we don't... no... we won't drop it. But it does still happen...
> I've seen people carelessly leave a camera on a tripod in a crowded hall, where a bunch of kids run across tripping over wires which eventually take down a tripod with a camera on top. I would hate to see a pro camera with an articulating screen fully unfolded to fall side ways.
> ...



Still laughing........


----------



## onlyme (Nov 18, 2015)

I expect canon marketing will decide if the feature is inevitiable on the 5dmkiv. That is they will probably look at the competition, such as:
Do they have tilt and touch screens?
How well do the competition sell wrt to the current 5dmkiii?
is the touch tilt screen going to be a must have feature? Are we going to lose sales if its not implemented.
etc.

They will consider the planned development, such as market disruption, core changes along with incremental features that the market demands. I dont profess to know the answers but one thing I am sure of, canon will not sacrifice usability of their pro camera range, so I doubt that buttons will be removed for a touch screen equivalent.


----------



## JoFT (Nov 18, 2015)

For me the Flippy-Tilty touchscreen is more or less a must!


Panasonic has it since years. And since the GH3 Dust and weather sealed. Has anybody heard of broken ones????


The tilty flippy toouch has a couple of advantages. And one is the larger base of the camera if there is no tripod. And it gives more stability shooting.


And there is the style factor: it is looking so great seeing photographers laying on the ground.... ;-)


PS: I shoot with µ43 since 2009 - in addition to Canon FF & APS-C: Never had an issue with the Tilty-Flippy-Touch. But I love to use them!


And I hope Canon comes with a competitive live view autofocus


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 18, 2015)

K-amps said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > gunship01 said:
> ...



Neither well said nor based on anything stated in this thread. 

What I said was that IF Canon hasn't come up with a sensor improvement, to fulfill the needs of a product release cycle, they might resort to using cosmetic or ergonomic changes. Apparently calling a flip screen a "gimmick" sent ahsanford into orbit, so he misread.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 18, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> And the argument that a flip screen is stealing resources from improving sensors don't hold water. The staff who work on those things are quite different in skillset -- "Sorry, world class sensor designer Dave and data handling / noise processing ringer Lisa, we need you to stop with your mission critical on-chip ADC work and _knock out a flippy screen for us_. Chop chop."
> 
> I appreciate a project has a budget and everything has a price, but it's not like in the planning stages of the project Canon could have traded away that proposed flippy screen for two stops more DR at ISO 100. Those are apples and oranges to deliver.



Lol. No, it's not about budget per se – it's about priorities based on perceived customer want/need. No doubt some on these forums – and many not on these forums – receive periodic market research surveys from Canon. Often they present lists of features from which a limited number can be selected. I know I've seen DR and articulating screens as choices. Personally, I didn't select the latter – Canon certainly knows what fraction of respondents did prioritize that feature over others.


----------



## arthurbikemad (Nov 18, 2015)

I'm another that hopes no flip screen, not for me.. If you want such a thing buy one of those disposable canons like a 600D


----------



## lidocaineus (Nov 18, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> Excellent points, Don.
> 
> In my experience, however, the flip screen significantly changes the tight, solid feel of a body. On a second camera, fine, but on a primary body, such as the upcoming 5D4, I'm hoping this rumor is not true.



Remember my original post about tiring, old arguments? We get it. You don't like articulating screens. We heard you the first time, and then *every. Single. Other. Post. On. Every. Page. Of. This. Article. Repeating. The. Same. Thing*.

The reason the articulating screen fans are so baffled by this knee-jerk "NO!" to articulating screens is because the tech is well-established (old at this point), widely available, easily weather sealed, and *if you don't want to use it, you don't have to use it* – leave it in place. I challenge anyone to demonstrate where an articulating screen, in its in-place position, is any more "dangerous" than a fixed screen. In fact, I challenge someone to demonstrate where an articulating screen in the _closed_ position is more prone to screen damage versus a fixed one. An articulating screen gives you more options and if correctly implemented, will provide little drawback.

I can respect someone's opinion, but it steadily erodes as you start hammering your point over and over. And over. And then add in inaccurate comments (there's no touchscreen on the 60D), or just weird ones, like favoring non-articulating screens because it makes a camera lighter and more solid. You do realize that articulating screens on Canon bodies have only been places on the mostly plastic and poly bodies right? And that by far is what contributes to light weight, not a minuscule screen hinge? Or you seem to have cornered the market on what pros do and do not do, or what constitutes a "toy" camera is, or that wedding photographers are the be-all end-all of photography with a 5D (and they would never use an articulating screen). Your unending method of repeatedly lording some obscure sense of superiority over everyone else has basically reduced your credibility to nil and transformed you into that crazy person on the corner standing on a soapbox screaming at passers-by, who are having normal conversations.


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 18, 2015)

lidocaineus said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Excellent points, Don.
> ...



If you read the sentence about the 60D, you'd have seen I typed "touch" by mistake instead of "flip," and then corrected the typo *which.was.already.caught.by.another.poster.*

As for hammering, you still don't get the point that I don't want a hinged device on a 5DIV. Whether or not the flip is kept in place or not, it still significantly changes the feel. It adds play, looseness, whatever you care to call it, and is just one more part that can break.

What baffles me is not your misunderstanding and misreading, but your insistence that those of us who don't share your opinion should be silenced. Many, many good reasons for having a flip have been posted in this thread, and I've acknowledged them. Posts like yours, which I don't mind correcting, are a big reason I keep responding.

Of course I know a 60D doesn't have touch--I've owned one for four years. I prefer the tight feel of my 5DIII and the fact it has no external moving parts. If you understand that, I don't have to hammer the point anymore!


----------



## arthurbikemad (Nov 18, 2015)

Flip screen - moving parts = more to fail.. :'(

I think this is the point many may make here, I'd agree with that. Or you could argue for those screens that flip round and close it's more protected. However add in touch and water, crazy times! A weather sealed touch screen...lol Can't see it myself.

I've not read the whole thread so perhaps should just shush on the matter :-X


----------



## lidocaineus (Nov 18, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> If you read the sentence about the 60D, you'd have seen I typed "touch" by mistake instead of "flip," and then corrected the typo *which.was.already.caught.by.another.poster.*
> 
> As for hammering, you still don't get the point that I don't want a hinged device on a 5DIV. Whether or not the flip is kept in place or not, it still significantly changes the feel. It adds play, looseness, whatever you care to call it, and is just one more part that can break.
> 
> ...



No. We get it. And I respect people's opinions that differ from mine, because oftentimes I learn all sorts of things – different needs, different experiences, different situations – especially when they're backed up by well thought out reasonings and explanations. *We're not stupid, but you keep talking to everyone like they're ignorant*. Repeating yourself over and over (and adding in stranger and judgmental tones the more you do it) does nothing but antagonize people and push them away from understanding your point of view because you're being so confrontational and insistent on being "right". Guess what? There is no right. There are opinions backed up by reasons. We got yours back on page 1, but apparently that wasn't enough.

If you have actual new content to add to the conversation, by all means, I'm sure everyone would welcome it and you might get back some of the goodwill you squandered away. You could also keep your droning and repeating message over and over as well; I'm sure we'll respect your opinion greatly from that hole you're digging yourself deeper and deeper into.


----------



## lidocaineus (Nov 18, 2015)

arthurbikemad said:


> Flip screen - moving parts = more to fail.. :'(
> 
> I think this is the point many may make here, I'd agree with that. Or you could argue for those screens that flip round and close it's more protected. However add in touch and water, crazy times! A weather sealed touch screen...lol Can't see it myself.
> 
> I've not read the whole thread so perhaps should just shush on the matter :-X



Just as a point of matter – weather sealed articulating screens are easily done and deployed in consumer hardware. Touch screens in the same vein are also starting to show up (see the GX8 and GH4).


----------



## RustyTheGeek (Nov 18, 2015)

TWI by Dustin Abbott said:


> lidocaineus said:
> 
> 
> > I registered JUST to say this:
> ...



I'm too busy to read the entire thread. I tend to agree with the comment above as well. And it's hard not to agree with Dustin most of the time anyway. 

I've used the tilt screen on the 60D and 70D and the touch screen on the SL1. I liked having the touch screen on the SL1 a LOT more than I expected.

BUT HERE'S THE KICKER! ---->> If they put a touch screen on the 5D4, 6D or whatever, THE IMAGE BETTER LOOK PERFECT! I hated the way the 60D had a plastic bezel and was set away from the LCD so the image quality was TERRIBLE. This was improved on the 70D but the point I'm trying to make is that all of the fixed LCD screens look great or as good as possible since they are glass and they aren't mounted away from the LCD.


----------



## lidocaineus (Nov 18, 2015)

RustyTheGeek said:


> I'm too busy to read the entire thread. I tend to agree with the comment above as well. And it's hard not to agree with Dustin most of the time anyway.
> 
> I've used the tilt screen on the 60D and 70D and the touch screen on the SL1. I liked having the touch screen on the SL1 a LOT more than I expected.
> 
> BUT HERE'S THE KICKER! ---->> If they put a touch screen on the 5D4, 6D or whatever, THE IMAGE BETTER LOOK PERFECT! I hated the way the 60D had a plastic bezel and was set away from the LCD so the image quality was TERRIBLE. This was improved on the 70D but the point I'm trying to make is that all of the fixed LCD screens look great or as good as possible since they are glass and they aren't mounted away from the LCD.



I completely agree. On a mid-level camera like the 60D, it was acceptable. If deployed to the 5D, there should be no compromise in image quality. That said, the 60D was an oddball or at least a slight shift in model positioning for Canon; it moved forward in a lot of ways from the 50D, but the build quality seemed to take a step back with the abundance of plastic everywhere.


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 18, 2015)

lidocaineus said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > If you read the sentence about the 60D, you'd have seen I typed "touch" by mistake instead of "flip," and then corrected the typo *which.was.already.caught.by.another.poster.*
> ...



At this point you have 5 posts, and three of them are attacking me for clarifying my opinion? :

And I wrote, "Many, many good reasons for having a flip have been posted in this thread, and I've acknowledged them." 

That's confrontational?

C'mon, Canon, make an announcement and end our agony.


----------



## Proscribo (Nov 18, 2015)

I wonder how cameras are supposed to be made better if there can't be anything added "because it's one more thing to break". 
Flippy screen or not, I find it ridiculous that people think touch screen is going to break more easily than a fixed one or that it would degrade image quality if done properly. I'm not sure but doesn't smartphone's have touch screens and pretty damn good quality and a few more pixels/cm.



lidocaineus said:


> That said, the 60D was an oddball or at least a slight shift in model positioning for Canon; it moved forward in a lot of ways from the 50D, but the build quality seemed to take a step back with the abundance of plastic everywhere.


I think it was that 7D was introduced as the top-level crop body, which was (kinda) the spot where 50D was.


----------



## dolina (Nov 18, 2015)

I hope Canon offers features that are compelling to people to upgrade.

As it is it's just another more of this and more of that.

Built-in WiFi & GPS should have happened with the Mark III in 2012.


----------



## ahsanford (Nov 18, 2015)

RustyTheGeek said:


> BUT HERE'S THE KICKER! ---->> If they put a touch screen on the 5D4, 6D or whatever, THE IMAGE BETTER LOOK PERFECT! I hated the way the 60D had a plastic bezel and was set away from the LCD so the image quality was TERRIBLE. This was improved on the 70D but the point I'm trying to make is that all of the fixed LCD screens look great or as good as possible since they are glass and they aren't mounted away from the LCD.



+1. Amazed the bezel didn't come up in conversation before.

And you've got the key distinction: how it _performs_ and how it _looks_ are two different things. You could have a wonderfully bright, responsive, high-res display tucked inside of a large/tacky looking bezel like a laptop screen from 15 years ago. 

- A


----------



## rfdesigner (Nov 18, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> rfdesigner said:
> 
> 
> > I keep wondering if Canon can make the screen detachable.
> ...



nothing to stop you developing a decent app.. there should be one.. but if the screen is simply detachable and wirelessly charged from the body then you don't need to "maintain" it like you do a smartphone.

Thats the primary reason I've never got a smartphone.. It doesn't offer me enough features for the amount of hassel I know I'll get, having to keep another software stack pointing the right way round.. it may be easy for those who spend an hour or more a day on one but for someone like me who'll barely use it more than half an hour a week, if that, I just don't want one.

I spend enough time looking a computer screens anyway.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 18, 2015)

lidocaineus said:


> arthurbikemad said:
> 
> 
> > Flip screen - moving parts = more to fail.. :'(
> ...



Can't see the possibility of a weather sealed touch screen ArthurBikeMad? Shoot, check out my video. I've had this thing for years. I even dunk it in the sink. This thing is at least 3 years old now and has never failed. My gosh guys! When I worked for Proctor and Gamble 30 years ago we had weather sealed touch screens on production lines that were regularly sprayed down with high pressure hoses during product change overs. This is not some newfangled technology. It would be easier to seal that so many extra buttons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAWXYl0qAFQ


----------



## roxics (Nov 18, 2015)

Would it help some of you accept it if the flip screen locked into the body on the other side requiring you to slide a switch to flip it out?


----------



## zim (Nov 18, 2015)

roxics said:


> Would it help some of you accept it if the flip screen locked into the body on the other side requiring you to slide a switch to flip it out?



no, haters will always hate :-\


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 18, 2015)

CanonFanBoy said:


> lidocaineus said:
> 
> 
> > arthurbikemad said:
> ...


Then we have the laptops the military use..... if you build a laptop that works in heavy rain, a camera screen is child's play....

And remember.... the 60D (with articulated touchscreen) was supposed to be better sealed than the 5D2..... and the 7D2 with a pop-up flash is better sealed than a 1DX.... or you could give up entirely on Canon/Nikon/Sony and go Olympus..... they have better sealing


----------



## tomscott (Nov 18, 2015)

Sometimes its easier to let them go round in the same circles than argue.

What will be will be.


----------



## RustyTheGeek (Nov 19, 2015)

I was going to mention Olympus, thanks Don! And I think the military uses Panasonic Toughbooks (the fully rugged series). They are pretty solid! Also, Thinkpads are more rugged than most people realize and they can be repaired easily. Both products have a certain mil-spec rating respectively.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 19, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> ...and the 7D2 with a pop-up flash is better sealed than a 1DX....



Don, can I ask where you found that information? I note that in his 7DII review, Bryan Carnathan (TDP) links to Roger Cicala's teardown and praises the 7DII's sealing, but also states, "_Canon told me that the 1D X remains a better-sealed camera..._"


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 19, 2015)

Post example pics here!
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=28358.msg559411#msg559411

Sincerely willing to learn.


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 19, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > ...and the 7D2 with a pop-up flash is better sealed than a 1DX....
> ...


Roger said "the Canon 7D Mk II may be the best weather-sealed camera I've run across" and "the most thoroughly weather-sealed camera I've ever run across". I can see it being true as a result of the lessons learned from the 1DX... and I would bet the 1DX's next iteration will be even better. I thing that both are as good as Canon can make them so whichever is the latest should be the best.

However, the real point is that the degree of weather sealing of a camera is more dependant on what the manufacturer decides to do than the cost of the camera. Many of the Olympus mirrorless cameras are better sealed than most Canons and Nikons, despite costing far less and despite having tilt/swivel screens and plastic bodies.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 19, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



I read that in Roger's 7DII tear down, but I don't think he's torn down a 1D X for comparison. I'd be inclined to take Canon's word on it. 

Still, it very clearly debunks the idea that a popup flash precludes effective weather sealing.


----------



## dufflover (Nov 19, 2015)

Just chiming into this thread as another user who loves his 70D flippy touch screen + DPAF. That was one of the main reasons I basically "converted" my 7D + 60D and got a 70D. Ok that's probably not the most accurate description of what happened but point is that (doing a lot of "lazy ground level shooting") there were times I actually preferred the 60D for the screen, but ofcourse that meant giving up the rest of it (AF points, FPS/buffer) so 70D was the obvious best of both - ended up selling the 7D down to it getting a decent dollar value than trying to sell the 60D.

I'd even go as far as to say it's one of the main reasons why I haven't gotten an FF camera yet because admittedly I (obviously?) don't need the super AF and high ISO performance, not enough to splash the cash alone *and* lose this nice bit of usability, but if it had a flippy screen and good Live View AF I probably would've been convinced to buy one during my "weaker" G.A.S. moments of feeling like upgrading lol

And yes I'd issue the same challenge - if all this new "crap" Canon plastic, pop-up flashes and flippy screens is so weak, I'm not seeing the constant reports of breakages.


----------



## romanr74 (Nov 19, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> gunship01 said:
> 
> 
> > I would have to think Canon's efforts are best spent on making the sharpest pictures (IQ, low light, sensor, ISO) possible and leave the gimmicks to the lower tiered series (7 and 6). I cannot imagine many wedding photographers needing to shoot too many pictures from the hip and not look through the viewfinder.
> ...



I'm not interested in apples and oranges. I'm looking for the next evolution step of the 5D. I never ever missed a shot because I have no swivel screen.


----------



## romanr74 (Nov 19, 2015)

sunnyVan said:


> I think WiFi functionality would be enough to address low angle shooting. I'd take Wifi over flip screen.



I'd want WIFI connectivity able to (without further accessory) use my iPad as a live view remote. That will solve all my personal situations where my photo ideas are cumbersome (and where in many cases a swifel screen would actually not do the job).


----------



## romanr74 (Nov 19, 2015)

eguzowski said:


> The Flip Out touch Screen is a MUST DO! Im a professional event photographer and videographer and this feature is 100% desired! I use to be a full time photojournalist for 10 years working for The New York Times, Associated Press and Ive been published in National Geographic.
> 
> The weddings with a 5D3 and a 70D. I use the 70D for stills or video because of the articulating touch screen. To get an shot while the camera is on the floor is awesome and quick with the flip articulating screen and a must for overhead type of shots of dancing etc. When shooting video the touch screen is awesome and having it articulate is a must. I bought a EOS cinema C100 but I felt it clumsy for shooting wedding, the view finder useless and not nearly as user friendly as the 70D. The articulating screen with awesome video auto focus on a 5D IV would be 2x-3x better in low light than the 70D. I have to shoot the 70D with a Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 DC HSM Art Lens.
> 
> ...



To my mind you have a picture framing challenge. I dont think Sony will solve that for you...


----------



## romanr74 (Nov 19, 2015)

dilbert said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Is this the psychology class?


----------



## romanr74 (Nov 19, 2015)

CanonFanBoy said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > The one annoying assertion in this thread is that those of us who oppose a flip screen on the 5DIV have never used a flip-screen, thus our distaste and distain.
> ...



Wow. Impressed. Another forum member who talks for everybody but not only herself. If only I had this infinite wisdom for 2 seconds I would finally die happily...


----------



## romanr74 (Nov 19, 2015)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I bought everything I have for pleasure. They are all toys.



Now I'm seeing pictures...


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 19, 2015)

romanr74 said:


> I never ever missed a shot because I have no swivel screen.


Good for you! but don't deny or decry others the use of a tool that they find useful.

I did a confined space shoot and got so fed up with the 5D2 that I went home at lunch and got my 60D and enjoyed the flippy screen for the rest of the shoot.

Some people prefer a flippy screen to lying in mud or cold water and snow. Some like it for over the head shots. There is even a rumour that people with arthritis prefer it to crawling on their hands and knees..


----------



## romanr74 (Nov 19, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > I never ever missed a shot because I have no swivel screen.
> ...



In constrast to most people in this forum - if you are among these is for your selfassessment - I only express my opinion and my requirements and don't talk about universal truth...


----------



## StudentOfLight (Nov 19, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > I never ever missed a shot because I have no swivel screen.
> ...


Another example:
Last month I lent my 60D to a relative for their recent trip to Europe. They probably never used the [ * ] exposure lock button as I taught them to shoot in manual mode. They never missed a shot in that trip due to exposure lock issues. The fact that they didn't use the [ * ] button (and never missed a shot because of it) is not a reasonable way to come to any meaningful conclusion on whether or not the [ * ] button should be included on Camera bodies?


----------



## romanr74 (Nov 19, 2015)

StudentOfLight said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



This mindblowing insight changes everything - thanks for sharing... 
Can I personally still dislike swivel screens and say that I don't need them and don't want them on my DSLR?
You can still want and consider useful as many swively parts on your gear as you wish...


----------



## hmatthes (Nov 19, 2015)

I'm an old film camera guy, EOS since 1987. 
I hardly ever use "LiveView" since my internal workflow starts with eye to pentaprism with my hands knowing where to diddle with controls.
Now my 70D and wife's SL1 are causing me to use the "Q" often to scan the myriad of related settings all at once, poke which should change, and spin the dial... I am sold on touch screen. 
In weather I invert the 70D screen toward the body for potentially better sealing -- hell I know how to use the camera without it! The viewfinder has lots of info.
Articulating screens are wonderful. I use it a lot when in the woods, with macro, with odd situations.
*5DIV: Touch Screen = YES* Articulating would be very nice but I can use the 70D in a pinch.
*Please give me a 24meg full frame, 6fps, better than anything else dynamic RAW range, noise free to ISO1600 -- then literally nothing else.* 
Don't need GPS, WiFi is terrible as implemented, how about more "C" selections & less "A" junk.


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 19, 2015)

romanr74 said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...


I don't think there is a universal truth..... We all have different needs and preferences..... And there is absolutely nothing wrong with stating one's opinion, but because it is so easy to misjudge things on the web, starting off with "my opinion" or "personally" can help others realize that you are stating your opinion and not launching a diatribe like some others are prone to.....


----------



## StudentOfLight (Nov 19, 2015)

romanr74 said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...


That's a completely reasonable position to hold.


----------



## ashmadux (Nov 20, 2015)

romanr74 said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > gunship01 said:
> ...



Fir enough. It's likely though that you could not get certain shots, therefore didn't try. So you win by a very loose default


----------



## scyrene (Nov 20, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



This is absolutely fair. But we ought to strive to hold opinions backed up by evidence, and change our opinions when presented with good, strong evidence to the contrary. Now the swivel thing is a matter of taste, ultimately, so mostly beyond evidence, but those arguments put forward by the anti-swivel people have been rebutted, and no evidence presented to support them (e.g. weather sealing - it's said you can't weather-seal a flip screen, but then weather-sealed cameras have been cited). Not all opinions are equal in that sense (and again I repeat: I'm neither pro- nor anti-flip screens).


----------



## romanr74 (Nov 20, 2015)

ashmadux said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



I have just again checked the thread where swivel-screen supported pictures can be shared. It doesn't tell me i missed something... Try harder...


----------



## fotoproz (Nov 20, 2015)

I too registered just to reply to this post. 

I have to agree with lidocaineus. I have been using my T3i for a lot of on location work and I can say that the usefulness of the articulating screen far out weights the 'possible' damage that could be done to the screen. I have not in all this while had on issue with the screen because I am careful using my equipment. 

Being able to set up a shot, sometimes at a bad angle, is helped immensely by having the option of the an articulating screen. 

I really hope that Canon makes this happen in addition to a better sensor.


----------



## romanr74 (Nov 20, 2015)

fotoproz said:


> I too registered just to reply to this post.
> 
> I have to agree with lidocaineus. I have been using my T3i for a lot of on location work and I can say that the usefulness of the articulating screen far out weights the 'possible' damage that could be done to the screen. I have not in all this while had on issue with the screen because I am careful using my equipment.
> 
> ...



give me samples samples samples... anyone...!?


----------



## melbournite (Nov 20, 2015)

For what it's worth (maybe Canon are listening)...

I've owned all Canon 5D editions and WANT to have touch and articulating screen on the next one.


----------



## George D. (Nov 20, 2015)

Santa is one thing Canon another.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 20, 2015)

George D. said:


> Santa is one thing Canon another.



But what if you're on both naughty lists?


----------



## George D. (Nov 20, 2015)

Shrewd!


----------



## dcm (Nov 20, 2015)

Using both the M/M3 and 6D these days I find my self often reaching for the screen on the 6D rather than the buttons. That said, I still use certain buttons with both when looking through the viewfinder. Beyond that I'd settle for the touch screen interface for everything else. My next FF body decision (5DsR, 5D?, 1D?) may be swayed by which supports a touchscreen.


----------



## Zak (Nov 20, 2015)

I'm about to upgrade from 70D (tilting touchscreen) to full frame body and I don't really care is it going to be Canon or Nikon. The next generation full frame that will include a tilting touchscreen LCD will be mine on preorder. The only reason I don't upgrade now to 5DS or D810 is the lack of that so much used by me extra.
*CANON BEWARE!!!*


----------



## Sporgon (Nov 21, 2015)

Zak said:


> *CANON BEWARE!!!*



What, beware of the D750 ?


----------



## onlyme (Nov 21, 2015)

Zak said:


> I'm about to upgrade from 70D (tilting touchscreen) to full frame body and I don't really care is it going to be Canon or Nikon. The next generation full frame that will include a tilting touchscreen LCD will be mine on preorder. The only reason I don't upgrade now to 5DS or D810 is the lack of that so much used by me extra.
> *CANON BEWARE!!!*



Expect an urgent call from Canon then, they're very worried about losing you as a flip screen FF customer. Nikon are also equally worried about this.


----------



## romanr74 (Nov 21, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



I personally believe that in my opinion I am usually clearly and transparently expressing my personal opinion. Most other members talk about what People will do, what Canon must do, what a camera must have, yak yak yak...


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 21, 2015)

Zak said:


> I'm about to upgrade from 70D (tilting touchscreen) to full frame body and I don't really care is it going to be Canon or Nikon. The next generation full frame that will include a tilting touchscreen LCD will be mine on preorder. The only reason I don't upgrade now to 5DS or D810 is the lack of that so much used by me extra.
> *CANON BEWARE!!!*



''I'm a big, big girl in a big, big world,
And I don't care much if you leave me...''


----------



## scyrene (Nov 21, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> Zak said:
> 
> 
> > I'm about to upgrade from 70D (tilting touchscreen) to full frame body and I don't really care is it going to be Canon or Nikon. The next generation full frame that will include a tilting touchscreen LCD will be mine on preorder. The only reason I don't upgrade now to 5DS or D810 is the lack of that so much used by me extra.
> ...



Ah that takes me back.


----------



## Zak (Nov 21, 2015)

I'm 206 cm (6ft9) and most of the time I shoot children's photography which means real pain in the ass.
Actually at my height 99.9% of the humanity is down there below my chest level and there's no way of me taking a well framed picture without squatting down and bending over. Enough is enough.

Articulated screen is a must for me.
https://drive.google.com/folder/d/0B18ub9HPOLiOS3YzMmFhaTRDamc/edit


----------



## romanr74 (Nov 22, 2015)

dilbert said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > fotoproz said:
> ...



picture samples, not stories... 
btw, how tall are you (when your hips are just inches above the ground)?


----------



## sanj (Nov 22, 2015)

Asking for picture samples of photos taken by flip screen is weird. The point is the ease with which photos can be taken by flip screen, not if they can't be taken otherwise.


----------



## sanj (Nov 22, 2015)

dilbert said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > fotoproz said:
> ...



With you on this Dilbert.


----------



## Besisika (Nov 22, 2015)

romanr74 said:


> picture samples, not stories...
> btw, how tall are you (when your hips are just inches above the ground)?


https://flic.kr/p/pMxsXh


----------



## AdjustedInCamera (Nov 22, 2015)

sanj said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



+1

And it isn't even the very low PoV shots either that a flip-screen helps with. If you want to keep a tripod low because of wind, or because you need to keep moving and don't want the thing at full height, the flip-screen makes it easy to use the camera at chest height. A slight adjustment to the screen to still have full control.

And for those that want to take some video, not as a major part of their photography, but maybe a few mins to help capture the mood of somewhere, I don't understand how this is possible at all without a flip-screen. Obviously people do it, and professionals obviously do it very well. I just can't imagine shooting video through a view-finder or a static view screen. The camera seems too heavy and to have to hold it up to your face while shooting seems unstable. The flip-screens lets you hold the camera in a natural and stable stance and move around while keeping the shot framed correctly. Is video without a flip-screen just done with tripods?


----------



## romanr74 (Nov 22, 2015)

sanj said:


> Asking for picture samples of photos taken by flip screen is weird. The point is the ease with which photos can be taken by flip screen, not if they can't be taken otherwise.



What shall I say... 18 pages of dispute over the usefulness of swivel screens. plenty of People telling how the use lower end swivel screen cams for pictures they cannot do with the 1d/5d series. the someone opening a thread for swivel screen pictures (not me btw). then, virtually nothing, virtually noone having to share something... so is it ok if i feel confirmed in my view that i don't miss somehting without swivel screen?


----------



## romanr74 (Nov 22, 2015)

Besisika said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > picture samples, not stories...
> ...



scary, but appreciated!


----------



## sanj (Nov 22, 2015)

romanr74 said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Asking for picture samples of photos taken by flip screen is weird. The point is the ease with which photos can be taken by flip screen, not if they can't be taken otherwise.
> ...



Can! But with lots of undue difficulty. 

You don't miss shots, but ease of taking the shots.


----------



## scyrene (Nov 22, 2015)

romanr74 said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Asking for picture samples of photos taken by flip screen is weird. The point is the ease with which photos can be taken by flip screen, not if they can't be taken otherwise.
> ...



I just think you're missing the point. It's like... 5D users manage without a pop up flash. Or wifi. Would it come in handy occasionally? Sure. Is it a deal breaker? Of course not - not for the vast majority anyhow.

I feel the majority of anti-flip/touch screen rhetoric has been excessively negative (subjective 'it's ugly' or baseless 'it can't be weather sealed'). Those saying they'd like it are just asking for more options, and have never described fixed-screen camera in such negative terms. I don't recall anyone saying you cannot take a given shot without one either. Again: it's about making things a little easier/giving you more options.


----------



## romanr74 (Nov 22, 2015)

scyrene said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > sanj said:
> ...



flash, screen, wifi..., they are not the same... my personal opinion for 5d/1d series:

- no built-in flash (it will not do the job but compromise both flash and potential ruggedness, weather-sealing and optical viewfinder)
- no swifel-screen (in my opinion it doesn't really help and i still believe it will compromise ruggedness and weather-sealing, to me it makes camera handling in the bag more difficult and i think they are as ugly as can be)
- please wifi (as i said before, so i can for instance use a field monitor/iPad as live view remote which probably does the job for size and for distance from the camera; if it can be done in the bullet-proof magensium alloy housing)

again, before someone freaks out again, this is my personal view.


----------



## Maleko (Nov 22, 2015)

IF they do add a flip/touch screen it will be an annoying reason for them to add more to the price tag...


----------



## bergstrom (Nov 22, 2015)

One thing I saw people complain about is the anti aliasing filter in the 5DMK3 and having them physically removed at their own cost. So I wonder will Canon either offer 2 versions, with and without anti aliasing filter?


----------



## dufflover (Nov 23, 2015)

romanr74 said:


> - no built-in flash (it will not do the job but compromise both flash and potential ruggedness, weather-sealing and optical viewfinder)


As quoted by previous posters, this whole ruggedness and sealing thing has been debunked. Sure it probably won't be a 1-series sealing, but you ask for proof with swivel screen friendly pics? How about you put up some practical proof, link to forum posts, anything, which shows people have had camera bodies stuff up because of swivel screens, touch screens, or popup flashes. Hey considering Rebel cameras don't even have as much weather sealing and use that "crappy plastic", start there and see how many of those have failed due to those issues. Or maybe even start over at Nikon land and see if there's a problem.

I'll even contribute to your request of showing some "low angle"/"reach" pics made much more easily, cleanly, simple, blah blah blah, with a flippy screen.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/duffohyeah/20717121114/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/duffohyeah/21172511621/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/duffohyeah/20591111688/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/duffohyeah/19795745281/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/duffohyeah/13926537647/

I mean a lot of these were taken on the beach ... the salty seas rough coarse beach! According to some posters here that compromised weather sealing means it should've fallen part right? The camera stayed perfectly dry and aside from the shoes/boots, so did I.

Like most people spending their hard-earned I tend to baby my stuff too, but the unplanned things I've put it through like my 60D being dropped onto concrete or 60D/70D being drenched in heavy rain have made me worry about it far less if said situations do come up.


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 23, 2015)

dufflover said:


> I mean a lot of these were taken on the beach ... the salty seas rough coarse beach! According to some posters here that compromised weather sealing means it should've fallen part right? The camera stayed perfectly dry and aside from the shoes/boots, so did I.
> 
> Like most people spending their hard-earned I tend to baby my stuff too, but the unplanned things I've put it through like my 60D being dropped onto concrete or 60D/70D being drenched in heavy rain have made me worry about it far less if said situations do come up.


I can't remember where I read it, but someone from Canon had said that the 60D was better sealed than the 5D2.... Of course, that means nothing for the 5D3 or 70D, but it does show that articulated screens (and pop-up flashes) are not the black hole of sealing....


----------



## StudentOfLight (Nov 23, 2015)

dufflover said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > - no built-in flash (it will not do the job but compromise both flash and potential ruggedness, weather-sealing and optical viewfinder)
> ...


I like your Black Swan image. Wildlife shots taken from eye level of the subject are much more compelling in my opinion. What lens was used?

Also the Orb-Weaver image is another good example. When action is unfolding right in front of you, you need to be able to respond quickly in which case an articulating screen can be very helpful. Orb-Weavers also make huge webs so you cannot always find a spot to set up a tripod without damaging or disturbing their web so the articulating screen gives you some much needed flexibility regarding camera position and orientation.


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 23, 2015)

romanr74 said:


> - please wifi (as i said before, so i can for instance use a field monitor/iPad as live view remote which probably does the job for size and for distance from the camera; if it can be done in the bullet-proof magensium alloy housing)



WiFi is an option that in my opinion should be on every camera. Although a tilt/swivel screen is more convenient at times than a fixed screen, it can equally be said that a WiFi interface (and a good touchscreen interface) in more convenient than an articulated screen. Basically, this should be wireless tethered shooting and if properly done one could do everything with a phone (or tablet) that they do on the camera body.

And yes, it is easy to do with a "bulletproof" magnesium body.... A camera body is so full of holes that it is easy for RF to get in/out, and even if it were a complete shell, nothing stops you from putting the antenna(s) on the outside under the rubber. (see 1DX shell below). As a case in point, the 7D, with a magnesium shell, has GPS...


----------



## Sabaki (Nov 23, 2015)

I'd like the camera to be programmed with hypofocal indicators per lens, perhaps a dotted line or something in the viewfinder or LiveView


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Nov 23, 2015)

My previous 60D got wet on a few occasions and even got partially dunked into a river when I slipped once. Never had an issue at all with it. On the other hand, I've seen 5D2 cameras puke their guts and shut down from being in cold moist air with no water on them. They also had some gaping holes to the internals through the strap lugs. 

Fixed screens and articulating screens could either be well sealed or not sealed at all, just depending on how they are designed and implemented. 

Also, it is probably better to show images of people using the articulating screens rather than images from using them. I have many images that were greatly aided by an articulating screen, that don't look like they needed it just from the photo itself.


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Nov 23, 2015)

Sabaki said:


> I'd like the camera to be programmed with hypofocal indicators per lens, perhaps a dotted line or something in the viewfinder or LiveView


Magic lantern has something that sort of works this way. The new Leica SL also has DOF distances in the camera LCD displays. 

This would be a welcome feature, and would hopefully add more precision over the poor distance and DOF scales on most lenses Canon produces today.


----------



## pvk (Nov 24, 2015)

I own both the 70D (with Touchscreen) and the 5D Mark III. There are two great advantages in daily use of a touchscreen and one disadvantage. 

1) It is fast to select options. Often I still use the buttons and dials (old habits), but after working with the 70D a while, I start to touch the screen on the 5D only to discover that it does not react.
2) This is the biggest advantage: when making movies with the fast 70D autofocus, you can simply touch the screen to focus on that area. For me (not a movie professional) a touch screen has become a must have for movie shooting.
3) The disadvantage: sometimes my nose decides to change settings. It should have a proximity sensor like my mobile phone to avoid this. 

IMO it should also appear on the EOS 1DX Mark II for movie shooting.


----------



## dufflover (Nov 24, 2015)

pvk said:


> 3) The disadvantage: sometimes my nose decides to change settings. It should have a proximity sensor like my mobile phone to avoid this.
> 
> IMO it should also appear on the EOS 1DX Mark II for movie shooting.



How does this happen with people? (honest question)
When in normal viewfinder mode, except for the bottom corner "Q" touch button I have to press that or the physical "Q" button to enable the touch screen to respond in all those other areas.


----------



## Treblid (Nov 24, 2015)

What a fusion of ergonomics from 6D/70D/7D-II could look like.


----------



## rfdesigner (Nov 24, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> And yes, it is easy to do with a "bulletproof" magnesium body....



ever designed an antenna?

I have... many of them, this problem is solvable but it isn't straight forward. Otherwise good RF engineers wouldn't earn north of $100k per annum.

Please Try talking out of a different orafice.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 24, 2015)

rfdesigner said:


> ...earn north of $100k per annum.



I've never worked for so little. Except once, and that was a very noble cause.


----------



## bigdaddy (Nov 24, 2015)

rfdesigner said:


> Please Try talking out of a different orafice.



Hello rfdesigner, 

I do not post much, but I read this forum almost everyday, and I find your replies usually well thought out and they usually contribute something to the topic. 

But this statement to one of the most balanced and polite members of this forum ist really out of place. 

Bigdaddy


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 24, 2015)

rfdesigner said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > And yes, it is easy to do with a "bulletproof" magnesium body....
> ...


Yes, and I would appreciate it if you were a bit more polite.....

I would have answered you earlier, but I was busy all day characterizing a steerable array in the anecolic chamber where I work as a member of the Radio Networks group at the Communications Research Centre..... I normally don't work on small antennas, but I have several "real" ones (6 Meter and 9 Meter dishes spread over the colder half of North America, plus a number of 120M and 240M wide HF antennas.... Obviously none of those can be mounted to a camera, but yes, I have designed antennas....

And yes, you CAN build an antenna that works on a "solid" magnesium body.... the fact that the 7D2 has GPS proves the point. The fact that the Olympus OM-D E-M1 has both a "solid" magnesium body and has WiFi proves that it can be done. The fact that the Olympus TG4 P/S camera, with a very solid metal shell has WiFi in a very small package proves that you can have WiFi on a metal body with very little real estate.

Designing a WiFi antenna for a Canon DSLR is NOT groundbreaking research.


----------



## privatebydesign (Nov 24, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> rfdesigner said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



Most times this comes up I point out that the wildly compromised WiFi inside the EyeFi SD card works absolutely fine even when in a 1 series camera. 

Anybody that believes putting WiFi/Bluetooth/NFC in a metal camera is difficult has bought in to too much marketing crap.


----------



## jebrady03 (Nov 24, 2015)

I'm sure this has been beaten to death by this point... But I have a stick handy and some time to kill...

This is what the screen of the 70D looks like when you're shooting with it (on the left) vs the screen on the 6D when you're shooting with it (on the right)



20151124_172417 by Jonathan Brady, on Flickr

If you touch ANYWHERE on the 70D except for the bottom left hand corner where the "Q" is, the screen does NOT respond. AT ALL. EVER. Once you touch the "Q", THEN the screen becomes active and you can touch any of those parameters and change them via the touchscreen. Touch the "Q" again, and the screen is, once again, dead. Holding the camera up to your face will NOT touch the "Q" area of the touchscreen unless your nose protrudes from your lips. Seriously. I'm not trying to be funny. That's where your nose would have to be to make contact with the "Q" on the touchscreen. Protruding... from... your... mouth... ...yep... Well, that is... IF you have a normally sized head. If your head is literally twice the size of the average human head, then I suppose your nose would easily press the "Q" button. Speaking of "Q"... did that last bit of information cue all the touchscreen haters who insist their nose would touch the touchscreen and change all the settings? 

Anyway... That was for all of the folks who (obviously) have never used a Canon camera with a touchscreen and who either said they wouldn't use it because they're worried they'd constantly change settings with their face or said "it would be great if it could be turned off".

Now... regarding the robustness of articulating screens... Here's a thread I just posted on CR where I emailed Roger at Lens Rentals about the topic... http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=28423.0


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 24, 2015)

jebrady03 said:


> I'm sure this has been beaten to death by this point... But I have a stick handy and some time to kill...
> 
> This is what the screen of the 70D looks like when you're shooting with it (on the left) vs the screen on the 6D when you're shooting with it (on the right)
> 
> ...



You sir.....
HOW DARE YOU bring common sense into an emotional argument!
HOW DARE YOU!

(My nose hits the screen Just below the M, and even if this was a problem, the touchscreen lock could easily be moved to the other side of the screen in software and downloaded in the next firmware update....)


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 24, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > rfdesigner said:
> ...


Not only that, but Canon already has WiFi on a DSLR (6D).... they know how to do it. The only question is in finding a source of an antenna..... They could use the same one as in the 6D (I presume it is internal but really don't know), or they could go buy an OM-D, open it up, locate the antenna, write down the part number, and order a few from the manufacturer.... Remember, we are just talking about something that will work for 10 meters or so.... this is not about designing the optimal antenna to link up from 100 meters away... 

This is a small incremental improvement (or simply another iteration) over existing products..... nothing new here....

P.S. just so you readers know how far a WiFi signal can travel with the right antenna, I have a WiFi link at work that goes 5K to one of the huts in the back end of the firing range... just slap on a pair of 32dB gain antennas and away you go....


----------



## jebrady03 (Nov 24, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> You sir.....
> HOW DARE YOU bring common sense into an emotional argument!
> HOW DARE YOU!



You're right of course. I'm going to find the nearest corner and stick my nose in it. Or just find the nearest corner of a touchscreen 70D and press my nose upon it and elsewhere on the screen and change all my settings. Either should be a suitable punishment!


----------



## millsrg1 (Nov 25, 2015)

This is way overdue. I am actually considering switching to Nikon if the 5DMKIV doesn't have a touch and articulating screen. The lack of it in the 7DMKII was very disappointing. I can't count how often I wished the 5DMKII had it. If you do landscape photography, architecture or anything else where low angles are common, an articulating screen is essential, period. For videography it is a necessity to be able to change focus cleanly with the dual pixel AF and move properly w/o shake. As for safety, you are not going to break it unless you're doing one-handed cartwheels or running backwards through the woods. When I travel with the 70D I turn the screen around and the screen is more safe, not less. The 5DMKIV needs to be a jack of all trades, and it will not accomplish that without an articulating touch screen. End of story.


----------



## Proscribo (Nov 25, 2015)

jebrady03 said:


> I'm sure this has been beaten to death by this point... But I have a stick handy and some time to kill...
> 
> This is what the screen of the 70D looks like when you're shooting with it (on the left) vs the screen on the 6D when you're shooting with it (on the right)
> 
> ....


What?  Off-topic but I just want to ask: do people really use the back screen to show the settings while they're shooting? Do they *use* the back screen *to regularly change* settings? Because since I switched from 550D to 70D I have kept the back screen off for almost all the time and have not missed it, maybe if I changed my WB all the time but still...


----------



## dufflover (Nov 25, 2015)

I'm absolutely kicking myself over this but hey may as well make use of this "event". Today due to my fault in the end, my 70D unmounted from my 70-200 which I had on a BR style shoulder strap via the tripod foot, so it fell roughly 3~4ft onto the pavement. I only knew after hearing the thud sound too! (absolutely shocked and FFS!). Picked it up off the ground where it was face up (gah! quick to stop dirt/dust getting in), popup flash had unlatched.
Dints on the corner next to where the battery cover closes so it feels a bit stickier to open/close now. Big scratch/dint marks on the corner of plastic of the screen (thankfully no screen cracks or anything; though mentioning this now I don't think I've tested the touch screen yet) and only just found small fracture next to the top AF button. I was absolutely paranoid ofcourse it was broken, on my way out for some military flyover events, and just long term in general. But no, at this stage anyway seems to work fine, including the popup flash. Ofcourse there is always the element of luck in these things, but my point is given the damage in multiple spots, if those "gimmicks" really do compromise the integrity of the body it isn't by much at all ...

(Absolutely filthy at myself!)


----------



## scyrene (Nov 25, 2015)

millsrg1 said:


> This is way overdue. I am actually considering switching to Nikon if the 5DMKIV doesn't have a touch and articulating screen. The lack of it in the 7DMKII was very disappointing. I can't count how often I wished the 5DMKII had it. If you do landscape photography, architecture or anything else where low angles are common, an articulating screen is essential, period. For videography it is a necessity to be able to change focus cleanly with the dual pixel AF and move properly w/o shake. As for safety, you are not going to break it unless you're doing one-handed cartwheels or running backwards through the woods. When I travel with the 70D I turn the screen around and the screen is more safe, not less. The 5DMKIV needs to be a jack of all trades, and it will not accomplish that without an articulating touch screen. End of story.



Which full frame Nikon DSLRs have them?


----------



## YuengLinger (Nov 25, 2015)

Proscribo said:


> jebrady03 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure this has been beaten to death by this point... But I have a stick handy and some time to kill...
> ...



If camera is on a tripod with top LCD and buttons above eye-level, how else?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 25, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> Proscribo said:
> 
> 
> > jebrady03 said:
> ...



Carry a ladder? 

Some settings are easier to adjust using the Q button and main LCD, such as timer, EC in M mode, etc., and on a tripod I'm composing with the LCD anyway.


----------



## sanj (Nov 25, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Proscribo said:
> ...



True..!!


----------



## rfdesigner (Nov 25, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> rfdesigner said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



I apologise for my tone, it was uncalled for, I've just seen so many people (managers included) thinking you can just bung any old off the shelf "antenna" on a PCB and it will magically work. I read your comment that it is "easy" as meaning precisely this. I wouldn't classify this as easy.. certianly possible for the right people with the right tools and sufficient time... but not "easy".

I say all this with a background of wearable antennas.. these are not "easy"..


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 25, 2015)

rfdesigner said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > rfdesigner said:
> ...


Working in a research institute, I probably have a warped idea as to what "easy" is......

To me, it's "this has been done before.... it should be easy". That "easy" will require months of modelling and testing to get the design and radiation patterns optimized, but going into the project you already know it can be done and how to do it. You can get about 75 percent of the way there on the first try, but optimizing is a lot of work.... So many times in a research environment we start off with "I wonder if this can be done and how the heck do I do it?", so relatively speaking WiFi on a DSLR is easy..... but yes, still a lot of hard work.

And yes, it is worth the knowledge and experience of a good RF designer to get the finished project...

And ironically, I just came out of a meeting where the manager thinks "you can just bung any old off the shelf "antenna" on a PCB (vehicle for me) and it will magically work", nor do they understand out of band noise and co-site interference..... or effects of ground planes..... sigh!


----------



## rfdesigner (Nov 25, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> rfdesigner said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



Yup.. had that meeting.. good luck.


----------



## millsrg1 (Dec 2, 2015)

scyrene said:


> millsrg1 said:
> 
> 
> > This is way overdue. I am actually considering switching to Nikon if the 5DMKIV doesn't have a touch and articulating screen. The lack of it in the 7DMKII was very disappointing. I can't count how often I wished the 5DMKII had it. If you do landscape photography, architecture or anything else where low angles are common, an articulating screen is essential, period. For videography it is a necessity to be able to change focus cleanly with the dual pixel AF and move properly w/o shake. As for safety, you are not going to break it unless you're doing one-handed cartwheels or running backwards through the woods. When I travel with the 70D I turn the screen around and the screen is more safe, not less. The 5DMKIV needs to be a jack of all trades, and it will not accomplish that without an articulating touch screen. End of story.
> ...



D750 screen flips out


----------



## romanr74 (Dec 2, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> I have a WiFi link at work that goes 5K to one of the huts in the back end of the firing range... just slap on a pair of 32dB gain antennas and away you go....



I don't want to fry my brain - i just only want to take photographs...


----------



## romanr74 (Dec 2, 2015)

millsrg1 said:


> If you do landscape photography, architecture or anything else where low angles are common, an articulating screen is essential, *period.* ... The 5DMKIV needs to be a jack of all trades, and it will not accomplish that without an articulating touch screen. *End of story.*



Aha... This after 20 pages of debate. Next time please let us know earlier... :


----------



## sanj (Dec 2, 2015)

romanr74 said:


> millsrg1 said:
> 
> 
> > If you do landscape photography, architecture or anything else where low angles are common, an articulating screen is essential, *period.* ... The 5DMKIV needs to be a jack of all trades, and it will not accomplish that without an articulating touch screen. *End of story.*
> ...



LOL


----------



## dufflover (Dec 2, 2015)

millsrg1 said:


> D750 screen flips out



And while we are on the topic, it also has popup flash, and wifi too.
So (genuinely asking) how many D750s generally fail because those features compromise it in some way ...

I've heard about the D600 sensor ... nothing on this


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Dec 3, 2015)

dufflover said:


> millsrg1 said:
> 
> 
> > D750 screen flips out
> ...


The wifi zaps the brain cells and causes the person to drop the camera. It must be true because there is no data to prove otherwise. 

I also have found that many wedding photographers have been sued after the bride has found out that the d750 was used. The litigation is based on the fact that cameras with pop-up flashes are not professional. Brides do not like spending their husband's or family's money on amateur photos. Many weddings have been butchered due to this fraud.


----------



## sanj (Dec 3, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> dufflover said:
> 
> 
> > millsrg1 said:
> ...


----------



## Ozarker (Dec 4, 2015)

Proscribo said:


> jebrady03 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure this has been beaten to death by this point... But I have a stick handy and some time to kill...
> ...



Use it all the time.


----------



## RGF (Dec 5, 2015)

romanr74 said:


> millsrg1 said:
> 
> 
> > If you do landscape photography, architecture or anything else where low angles are common, an articulating screen is essential, *period.* ... The 5DMKIV needs to be a jack of all trades, and it will not accomplish that without an articulating touch screen. *End of story.*
> ...



What about an L eyepiece adapter. Or remove viewer such as the Cam Range.

There are alternatives, so it is not essential. Just handy - a problematic because it can break. Any if anything can break, it will at the most inopportune time.


----------



## PhotographyFirst (Dec 6, 2015)

RGF said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > millsrg1 said:
> ...


Those are both horrible alternatives. L finders still require bending down and also require a loss in field of vision outside of the finder. Remote viewing devices are also slow and clunky to set up and operate compared to a flippy screen. My 6D with an iPhone was not even close to as useful as my 60D with the screen. For long-range remote control, it is nice, but not for most of the cases of operating the camera directly. 

We've already established that there is no evidence that flippy screens are more prone to breaking. If the flippy screen breaks during a fall, you've got other more serious damage to weaker points like the lens and internals. They may change the shape and ergonomics, but are not really as fragile as some think. They also help protect the screen from being scratched during transport.


----------



## YuengLinger (Dec 6, 2015)

millsrg1 said:


> This is way overdue. I am actually considering switching to Nikon if the 5DMKIV doesn't have a touch and articulating screen. The lack of it in the 7DMKII was very disappointing. I can't count how often I wished the 5DMKII had it. If you do landscape photography, architecture or anything else where low angles are common, an articulating screen is essential, period. For videography it is a necessity to be able to change focus cleanly with the dual pixel AF and move properly w/o shake. As for safety, you are not going to break it unless you're doing one-handed cartwheels or running backwards through the woods. When I travel with the 70D I turn the screen around and the screen is more safe, not less. The 5DMKIV needs to be a jack of all trades, and it will not accomplish that without an articulating touch screen. End of story.



Essential? Right...because there were no low angle shots before the paradigm shifting 60D came along.

A jack of all trades AND MASTER OF NONE. No, thank you. I want my SLR to take great stills while I'm running backwards through the woods.


----------



## Ozarker (Dec 6, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> millsrg1 said:
> 
> 
> > This is way overdue. I am actually considering switching to Nikon if the 5DMKIV doesn't have a touch and articulating screen. The lack of it in the 7DMKII was very disappointing. I can't count how often I wished the 5DMKII had it. If you do landscape photography, architecture or anything else where low angles are common, an articulating screen is essential, period. For videography it is a necessity to be able to change focus cleanly with the dual pixel AF and move properly w/o shake. As for safety, you are not going to break it unless you're doing one-handed cartwheels or running backwards through the woods. When I travel with the 70D I turn the screen around and the screen is more safe, not less. The 5DMKIV needs to be a jack of all trades, and it will not accomplish that without an articulating touch screen. End of story.
> ...



It is essential for aging men and women with bad backs, bad knees, bad shoulders, terrible arthritis etc. I know from experience. Since boomers have the most disposable income... guess which market segment will win?

Canon and all the rest would die a quick death if all they survived on were pro shooters. Many of us spend just as much as any pro and far outnumber pro's who actually make a living shooting photos (The very definition of a professional photographer or professional anything else).

It is also a big help to anyone with disabling injuries like veterans who've lost limbs.

Aside from essential... it is a luxurious feature when touch screen and DPAF are added.

Jack of all trades and master of none? It does not detract from any feature or function, it adds to them. But, you don't have to buy one if you don't want to.

This website matters very very little to Canon. What matters is the marketplace. The membership here is miniscule (microscopic) compared to that. Not even a blip.


----------



## dufflover (Dec 7, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> A jack of all trades AND MASTER OF NONE. No, thank you. I want my SLR to take great stills while I'm running backwards through the woods.



When a flippy screen, popup flash and Wifi suddenly takes away the "mastery" that can be achieved with a 5D3 vs 5D3 plus those features please enlighten CR with your miraculous discovery because I don't see how they are at all mutually exclusive 

Thinking about it more, pity I didn't go with Nikon from the get go. Don't get me wrong like I said at the start I like my 70D, and with it and the Canon bodies/lenses before it I've taken plenty of great pictures, but go figure if Canon had something like the D750 I would probably own one, whereas now I've held off for a long while on a 5D3 and so on. (I could use a wife/girlfriend analogy but I think that'll just open up a silly can of worms LOL!)


----------



## Hector1970 (Dec 8, 2015)

"A jack of all trades AND MASTER OF NONE. No, thank you. I want my SLR to take great stills while I'm running backwards through the woods."

With a flippy screen you could run forwards through the woods but shoot backwards.
This would increase your chance of escape and get the shot of the bear chasing you.

I wasn't really tempted by a 5DIV as the 5DIII is still excellent.
The flippy screen might change my mind.
I got the 5DSR. I am a little disappointed so far but its a more specialised camera and I can't get away with some of the loose shooting I do on a a 5DIII. The 5DSR I've decided is for a tripod.
On a tripod a flippy screen is very useful. Especially as I get less flexible and willing to roll around in the dirt as I get older.
The 5DSR has a 16x zoom on live view. This is a good thing. If the quality of the image was good a 5x / 10x / 20x zoom on live view would be great.


----------



## StudentOfLight (Dec 8, 2015)

Hector1970 said:


> "A jack of all trades AND MASTER OF NONE. No, thank you. I want my SLR to take great stills while I'm running backwards through the woods."
> 
> With a flippy screen you could run forwards through the woods but shoot backwards.
> This would increase your chance of escape and get the shot of the bear chasing you.
> ...


Watch out Usain Bolt. This dude can outrun you, BACKWARDS!


----------

