# 5d3 2 day experience coming from a 7D - Canon responses included...



## Sycotek (May 10, 2012)

Day 1: email to my canon staff member I normally rant too 

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I got impatient and bought a 5D3 – whilst it’s not one series, it’s not too bad.

However there is some serious banding issues – I can’t be the only one that it effects.

Sample here – (yes I am aware I twitched and locked ev -1/3 under but wouldn’t have this effect)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/33440790/1D5A8210.JPG (20MB warning)

I removed all in body processing as I wanted to see what the sensor is capable of.

DPP seems to have a mind of it’s own but I removed the unsharpen mask (which kills the image btw) and sharpening and all NR – except for Luminance noise (which is appalling without it)

There is serious banding in the skys? – red/green/purple – and I am using the camera how you would expect f2.2, 1/50, iso 12.8K

Thoughts? Solutions?

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No response so then continued with my day 2 experiences:

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AF test, Jpeg shooting:

Positive notes:

- AF – spot on to the fact of lunacy, and I have only just started to fine tune it as the default case 2 switches a bit too much. I managed to grab a cyclist come up a hill back lit when in a moving car travelling at 60KM/hr with only a 0.2-0.5s acquisition time pre fire on an F4 lens – to me that is insane.

- Jpeg image sooc is gorgeous – I wanted to see what it renders like with HS NR, ALO, Landscape Profile on and tbh SOOC images are near flaweless (bar the read noise).


Negatives:

- Dunno what Canons smoking but 6FPS is a joke – this is a 3.5-4fps at best camera when tracking (painfully slow but at least its accurate) – 7D smashes out frames in the same light using the same lens.

- Magnify to point is great (but nothing new after shooting 1 series for a few generations), but the moron that moved the magnify button should be shot.

- The af point is so small it’s hard to see at times (never had that issue with the 7D as the af points larger and brighter when you put the af point brightness mode to max – and at least you are given that option!!!)


Major Disappointment’s:

Read noise at iso 100 (and up) is noticeable in the shadows and anything remotely grey. 

LR’s Colour NR does remove most of it but at higher iso’s it doesn’t do as good a job.

On a side note: I’d love to use DPP but it seems it’s the same people coding that program as the guy that moved the magnify button – it’s clunky and feel like it came from the windows 95 era.

For now however there is no alternative to DPP -> TiFF -> LR edit (in effect you are better off shooting jpeg)

For a RRP of $4299 I wouldn’t expect to have to be processing NR at iso 100. At best this body is worth $2K and should be sold as Canons entry level FF camera – if you pull the AF out, that’s all it is - an entry level FF with a noisy sensor.

I’m not sure if the upcoming firmware address this? 

"local rep name" I’m going to take it into the studio and try and reclaim some love for it – from everything I have seen so far I am expecting to see some banding in the shadows of the skin tones – if my expectations prove to be true, then the camera is a complete and utter failure and will have to go back – sorry :/ (that was to my local rep)

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Response!!!

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Hi,

I passed on your previous feedback to our technical team for their evaluation.

Unfortunately due to restrictions in our internet access regarding file sharing we were unable to download the image you sent; however they mentioned that to accurately test whether the camera was functioning within specification or not it would need to be tested here at North Ryde.

As per below however I can see the 5DMkiii has not met your expectations. I cannot comment on the technical performance of the camera as this is all managed via Canon Inc, I can only hope that when the 1DX is launched it is the camera that you have been waiting for.

---


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## Drizzt321 (May 10, 2012)

For the editing workflow, LR 4.1 RC2 does support the 5d3, I've been using it (and RC1 before) since I got my 5d3. Works just fine.

For the FPS, what shooting mode did you have it in? Silent continuous or regular continuous or H continuous? Try them out, check the manual. Silent mode drops it to ~3fps. 

The AF points being difficult to see in low light, yea, just about everyone has complained about that. We've seen some possible statements that indicate we _may_ get the option to have them stay red in certain lighting situations. We'll see.

In terms of the banding, well, you're also shooting at 12.8K ISO!! Can your old 7D even come close? You should see what the 5d2 banding looked like at ISO >=3200. In the darks, it was often very, very obvious and grid-like. So much better than it was. Try exporting as a web size image, 1000-1500 pixels on the long side, I'm betting that'll help it a good bit. Also LR NR could help some as well, including the lens auto-correct stuff.

That's all I've got, haven't done a lot of shooting at low ISO's on it yet, but at a music venue for a shoot, it was pretty freaking awesome. Especially compared to my 5d2.


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## Sycotek (May 10, 2012)

Hey Drizzt321

I know LR4 supports the raw but they also cook the raws to no end. Hence the workflow change till adobe fixes the raw convertor.

FPS - H mode (like it should be)

And banding is visible in iso 100 images - look for anything grey and you will see the green and red bands 

First night i took it out shooting iso 2000 throughout - i am impressed overall by the iso range just the bandings killed it for me.


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## Drizzt321 (May 10, 2012)

Sycotek said:


> Hey Drizzt321
> 
> I know LR4 supports the raw but they also cook the raws to no end. Hence the workflow change till adobe fixes the raw convertor.
> 
> ...



Hmm...I never measured the FPS in H mode, seemed like it was pretty darn fast. Definitely a good bit faster than the 5d2 anyway.

Interesting you're seeing banding in the ISO 100. I'm guessing it's in areas without much light? Like on a tripod at night, even at low ISO you're getting banding in the dark/gray areas? Hmm...I'll have to do some tests on that when I get a chance.


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## revup67 (May 10, 2012)

Perhaps some obvious thoughts here but have you tried different lenses? Is it possible the camera is flawed? Do you have any filters on? I saw one other guy write in here about global issues on all lenses (think it was sharpness related) and after a replacement of the camera all of the problems were gone. How fast is the card in your camera and is it CF or SD and have you viewed the chart on the various cards and there clocked speeds within the 5D Mark iii (Rob Golbriath I think did the charts)? Silent mode is off I presume ? Auto Optimizer..is that off ? Are you shooting in RAW or JPG ?


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## Drizzt321 (May 10, 2012)

revup67 said:


> Perhaps some obvious thoughts here but have you tried different lenses? Is it possible the camera is flawed? Do you have any filters on? I saw one other guy write in here about global issues on all lenses (think it was sharpness related) and after a replacement of the camera all of the problems were gone. How fast is the card in your camera and is it CF or SD and have you viewed the chart on the various cards and there clocked speeds within the 5D Mark iii (Rob Golbriath I think did the charts)? Silent mode is off I presume ? Auto Optimizer..is that off ? Are you shooting in RAW or JPG ?



Good point on the lens. Are you using the 50mm f/1.8? Or the better 1.4 or 1.2?


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## Sycotek (May 10, 2012)

Day 1: sample image was shot with a EF 50 f1.4 in RAW (dpp -> Tiff -> LR)

Day 2 set: The shots that I was taking yesterday in servo mode was the my EF 24-105 F4 L IS USM - JPG NR-ON/ALO-ON (these were the type of shots i would normally take on the 7D that are good to submit for work with very little tweaking if any - all in well lit environment - iso 100-1250 max: Tv 1/250, Auto-iso) Banding is noticeable on anything grey/dark to light - blacks are solid. LR colour NR does remove all visible banding with the slider at 50. (I'll try and post a sample tonight)

Speed - CF - Sandisk extreme pro 90MB/s <--not the card

The last test tonight/tomorrow will be in the studio with the EF 70-200 f2.8 L IS USM II in RAW (dpp -> Tiff -> LR)


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## nesarajah (May 10, 2012)

You have a nail , you buy a hammer. It works. The end. 
Look, if the nail is flush with the surface then all is fine, if it isn't then you need to just hammer it harder or at a different angle. 
Same thing with ALL cameras. Change some settings and the "flaws/bugs/banding" will go away. Also if light is an issue get a strobe.  

ps . just a hobbyist, what would I know right ?


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## awinphoto (May 10, 2012)

From my experience, Even with ISO 100, on most cameras, it's possible to recreate banding... I shoot product photography and metalized materials on a reflective surface gives me strong banding at ISO 100. Other materials aren't noticeable and looks flawless... what surface is the banding occurring on? a highly reflective surface? Skin tones should be porous enough to break the banding... As for the slow FPS, if you have the camera on focus first/speed second it will only fire when it's "sure" it's got focus... Also remember the 7d has a separate processor JUST FOR AF... the 5d3 doesn't. Its processor is faster than the digic 4's, supposedly, but it isn't a miracle worker, and is suspect in less challenging situations, it should be able to get 6FPS if set to do so. The AF point illumination is a problem but is easily fixable via firmware.


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## RuneL (May 10, 2012)

Banding is also 40.000 worse on jpeg than tiff or raw or any other losless format. To combat jpeg banding you need to add noise.


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## altenae (May 10, 2012)

> 7d has a separate processor JUST FOR AF... the 5d3 doesn't.



Not true.

The 5D Mark III has a dedicated processor for the AF:

From the Canon site (and many many other sites)

Both the 1D X and the 5D Mark III use dedicated AF microprocessors; these AF microprocessors are not DIGIC chips. The increased sensitivity of the focus system has also allowed for faster predictive focus measurements. Increased processing power is another factor to the 5D III's excellent AF performance - "The dedicated AF processor is four times faster than the one found in the EOS-1D Mark IV.


Also my 5D mark III is very close to 6 FPS.
Not sure why his 5D mark III is slow !! , make sure noise reduction is also off and battery fully charged.

Noisy images at 100 ISO !!!! , please post sample images so that we can see what is wrong.
If your 7D output is less noisy then for sure something is wrong.


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## marekjoz (May 10, 2012)

RuneL said:


> Banding is also 40.000 worse on jpeg than tiff or raw or any other losless format. To combat jpeg banding you need to add noise.



How did you calculate it?


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## WarStreet (May 10, 2012)

If the battery is about 40% or below, I'd drops to around 4fps. If the fps is inconsistent during servo, than there is a good chance it is due to the speed/focus priority as mentioned by awinphoto. This can be found on AF2 menu.


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## pdirestajr (May 10, 2012)

I've never had a problem with banding on a low ISO photo... unless it was severely underexposed & I was attempting to save it. And in that case, it's user error not the camera's.


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## awinphoto (May 10, 2012)

altenae said:


> > 7d has a separate processor JUST FOR AF... the 5d3 doesn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fair enough that the 5d3 has a microprocessor, although unspecified by canon, it is unknown what the power that processor is compared to a full digic. As far as it was explained to me, the 7d's drive was aided by 2 digic 4 processors, much like the 1d4's 2 processors helped that AF system and drive. The 1dx also has 2 digic 5+ processors to help that drive and buffer. The 5d3 has 1 digic 5+ processor in comparison to the 7d and 1d4 and 1dx 2 digic processors. It has been hinted that the 5d3's 1 processor should be (in af terms) be as good if not better than the 1d4 although it lacks in FPS and buffer, it is what it is.


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## hyles (May 10, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> altenae said:
> 
> 
> > > 7d has a separate processor JUST FOR AF... the 5d3 doesn't.
> ...


every eos camera has an AF sensor, since eos film times.
eos 1 series since 1DIII has double digic processor, 1DX has double digic 5+ processor and 1 digic 4 used for AF. 7D has double digic4 processor.
Diego


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## victorwol (May 10, 2012)

I'm sure the camera can take the 6fps. Just get your phone, make the chronographer to run, and press the shutter, look at the photos, and you will see how many photos you take a second. With a fast card (1000x) I can take about 18 in raw at 6fps, then goes down to about 4 until the card is full. 

Now if you are selecting a subject difficult to focus, and your multi shot preference is set to focus priority and not release priority, it will reduce the speed as expected to first focus, then release. I also have a 7D and in not better focusing, not even close, I tested with every single lens I have and the 5D MKIII smokes it...


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## awinphoto (May 10, 2012)

hyles said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > altenae said:
> ...



Exactly what i was referring to


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## RuneL (May 10, 2012)

Why are you writing letters to canon and pasting them here? Is it set to "track" or "drive" priority? If you want a fast firing camera get a 1D IV and sell it when the 1D X shows up. There, problem sovled, no more time spent writing letters. Also, iso 12800... What do you expect? It looks fine to me? I made a nifty comparison to a 1D IV 12800 ISO shot, though very different in lighting and subject, whatever, just for the hell of it. 

Edit: As I've said in another post: You need to get used to the camera. They are very different. You upgraded from mid tier to near top tier. I rue the day you get your hands on a 1D X, wonder how many bitchy posts you'll write here, complaining about X or Z or Y because you didn't bother reading the manual.


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## Sycotek (May 11, 2012)

Thanks all for your replies:

Interesting notes from further testing:

-I found dpp->tiff->lr3 not to be as good as dng->lr4 (lr4 by default now adds +25 Colour NR which gets rid of most of the banding iso100-iso3200)

-fps hit seems to come mainly from ALO/NR - turning that off yielded slightly higher fps something I didn't experience or notice with the 7D, I did read somewhere about the battery at 40% effecting overall fps - but someone else brought that up and noted.

-For the record the 7D is my tie over camera when I sold off all my 1 Series gear (as we were all expecting the 1Dx to be out last Feb, tried to get a better price for my 1 Series before everyone starts the sell-off...) I think part problem being my expectations coming from 1Ds3's and 1D4's.

-The fact that I can see the banding on the back lcd screen when you hit the standard magnify is cause for concern - as someone mentioned prior it could be a lemon body - even my gf who isn't a photographer walked past and asked 'wtfs with the red and green lines?' - there's no way I am giving that to a client.

-Main reason for posting: I found it amusing that Canon Australia hides behind *Canon Inc* more times then I can count, just frustrating.


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## Sycotek (May 11, 2012)

And yes it's going back - might try another body and see how that goes


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## Drizzt321 (May 11, 2012)

Sycotek said:


> -For the record the 7D is my tie over camera when I sold off all my 1 Series gear (as we were all expecting the 1Dx to be out last Feb, tried to get a better price for my 1 Series before everyone starts the sell-off...) I think part problem being my expectations coming from 1Ds3's and 1D4's.



Ah, well, maybe there's part of your problem. You're expecting this to be a 1D camera. It may have the new 1D class focusing system, but it's still a 5D level camera even though it does have lots of small tweaks and improvements over the 5d2. 

I will say, I haven't really gotten the noise quite as bad as yours, and LR 4.1RC[1|2] cleared it right up most of the time at ISO 6400 & 8000 the time I shot at that high. It's definitely a big improvement over the [email protected], that's for sure! Talk about banding!


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## krjc (May 11, 2012)

I have had my 5D3 for 24 hours now and it is just so much better then my 7D that I love so much. High ISO is so much better and so much better then the 7D that there is no comparison. I have pushed the exposure to see how it handles it and it is looks good to me. Photos at 25,600 looking better then 1,600 on my 7D. Only thing I will miss on the 5D3 compared to the 7D is the reach. If a 7D2 comes out I will upgrade and have that as my second camera for that reason. Also the transition from the 7D has been effortless and the main reason I didn't even consider the D800, that along with my Canon glass. Frankly I don't care what others have, if what I have gets the job done 100% for my needs.


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## Sycotek (May 11, 2012)

krjc said:


> I have had my 5D3 for 24 hours now and it is just so much better then my 7D that I love so much. High ISO is so much better and so much better then the 7D that there is no comparison. I have pushed the exposure to see how it handles it and it is looks good to me. Photos at 25,600 looking better then 1,600 on my 7D. Only thing I will miss on the 5D3 compared to the 7D is the reach. If a 7D2 comes out I will upgrade and have that as my second camera for that reason. Also the transition from the 7D has been effortless and the main reason I didn't even consider the D800, that along with my Canon glass. Frankly I don't care what others have, if what I have gets the job done 100% for my needs.



It is really a seamless change! 

And banding aside i was impressed with the jpeg engine - http://dl.dropbox.com/u/33440790/Jpegzoom.png for example 12.8K, 1/20, f4, 105mm (a little PP but it picked up the texture on the leather at 12.8K which to me is impressive)


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## Sycotek (May 11, 2012)

In direct comparison with it's big brother - pre-production 1DX - I'm sure people have seen this image before but I've blown-up parts for my own analysis f5, 1/125, 24mm, iso12.8K:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/33440790/EOS1dX--0063.jpg - ACR convert to jpeg, no PP although it looks like there was NR inbody enabled.

Banding specifically in the greys isn't visible - does inherit the colour bleed which i noticed on the 5d3 at high isos - maybe that's what they have been fixing over the last few months? Look at the red to black transition, i had that issue with a teal (shorts) to skintone transition on the 5d3.


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## altenae (May 11, 2012)

> Ah, well, maybe there's part of your problem. You're expecting this to be a 1D camera



?

What are you saying ?
The 5D is not good enough for IQ , etc. and you need a 1D for this ?!

Strange remark. 
Also strange topic. 
Still waiting for his noisy and banding example from the 5D mark III.


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## Drizzt321 (May 11, 2012)

altenae said:


> > Ah, well, maybe there's part of your problem. You're expecting this to be a 1D camera
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was referring to the FPS and such, not the IQ. I've never used a 1D camera, but from what I've seen people post there are distinct differences above and beyond just the hardware that distinguishes a 1D from any other camera in Canon's lineup. If that's what he's used to, even the 5d3 will have various points that he might consider to be of significantly lesser quality.


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## Sycotek (May 11, 2012)

There was a banding image up for a few days sorry I pulled it down. If you're interested I can try and get a variety of cropped isos put together for you if i get the time over the weekend 

In the end:

When went back to the store to return the unit and the canon dealer was intrigued (as you can see the banding on the back lcd as clear as day) He then got out the loaner unit and whilst it is still visible on the back lcd screen it wasn't anywhere near as bad as mine and the are sending that one back as a lemon.

We put both bodies through a battery of tests, shooting with the same then different lenses - all L's for the record - both units exhibited near same banding.It's very easy to replicate shoot dark grey to mid grey target or shoot a scene where there is shadows and it is visible in the shadows/dark greys. I never tried i but if my process holds true, shooting the night sky would yield the same result even more-so around dusk.

I am waiting to hear from Canon if there is actually a known issue with the processing engine/noise profile. It would explain why there is colour-bleeds visible in the raws on both the 1DX and 5D3, (and more then likely the real reason for the delay of the 1DX).

As previously noted - if you are using LR4, it automatically removes banding that occurs iso 100-3200 as the NR color slider is locked at 25 to begin with. cr2->dng->LR4 yields better results overall then cr2->dpp->tiff in my experience.

the latest dpp seems to ruin the image with unsharpen mask added by default ? (im not really a heavy user of dpp so im not the best when it comes to understanding why) artifacts are present in the image that aren't seen when converted to DNG.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (May 12, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> From my experience, Even with ISO 100, on most cameras, it's possible to recreate banding... I shoot product photography and metalized materials on a reflective surface gives me strong banding at ISO 100. Other materials aren't noticeable and looks flawless... what surface is the banding occurring on? a highly reflective surface? Skin tones should be porous enough to break the banding... As for the slow FPS, if you have the camera on focus first/speed second it will only fire when it's "sure" it's got focus... Also remember the 7d has a separate processor JUST FOR AF... the 5d3 doesn't. Its processor is faster than the digic 4's, supposedly, but it isn't a miracle worker, and is suspect in less challenging situations, it should be able to get 6FPS if set to do so. The AF point illumination is a problem but is easily fixable via firmware.



For $3500, with AF being the main upgrade, it sure as heck should track in AI Servo at 6fps, I sure hope the 7D doesn't leave it in the dust.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (May 12, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> altenae said:
> 
> 
> > > 7d has a separate processor JUST FOR AF... the 5d3 doesn't.
> ...



7D does NOT use the 2 digic iv for AF it has a dedicated AF chip. 1DX also has a dedicated AF chip, the digic iv in the 1DX is only used to do the special color metering AF stuff.


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