# 6D with 3 flavor + Improve AF (compare to 5dm2)



## pakngah (Oct 14, 2012)

Hi,

I'm casual photographer and currently using 550d, sigma 30 f1.4, canon 85 f1.8, 24-105L, 430 EX2 and YN-560 II. I'm planning to upgrade to FF and my target is 5dm2. After announcement of 6D and D600 i plan to wait first and have read lot of 6D vs D600 spec comparison. Some say D600 have better spec and 6D wifi+gps is marketing gimmick only. So, there will be at least 3 flavor to choose and hopefully the basic 6D will be $1900.

Maybe 6D basic =1900, +GPS= 2000, +GPS+wifi=2100

Possible?

And the centre AF point will be cross (+) f5.6 with additional line f2.8 (I) and much better AI Servo (with custom tracking as 7d,5dm3) compare to 5dm2


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## LostArk (Oct 14, 2012)

You can't go wrong with either a 5D2 or 6D. If you don't mind waiting, get a 6D.


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## jocau (Oct 14, 2012)

Almost the same story here. I own a 550D, 18-55mm F/3.5-5.6 IS, 50mm F/1.8 II, 70-200mm F/4L IS and a Speedlite 580EX II. Also looking forward to a Fullframe body. I must admit that I'm disappointed with the 6D specs. I was at least expecting all focuspoints to be crosstype and a 100% coverage viewfinder. The Nikon D600 is a lot more interesting, but I hate selling all my gear and I just can't say goodbye to my 70-200m F/4L IS since no other brand has an alternative for it.


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## Menace (Oct 14, 2012)

I'd suggest wait for the 6D if you can however, there will be some bargains available on the 5d II once 6d is released. 

If you are seriously considering the D600 then it might be worth renting both (once avilable) over a couple of weekends to give you a good comparison.

Cheers


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## DB (Oct 14, 2012)

As far as I can see there will only be one 6D model variant on sale in early-December that will have built-in WiFi + GPS as standard. Whether or not you see these as gimmicks may depend on your shooting style, for instance, if you like to take candid shots or remotely (can use your smartphone to view, trigger etc.) or if you like to take photos out and about (landscape etc.). I would wait until just before Christmas, then check out the reviews of the new 6D vs old 5D2 and make your decision then, but wait till early-January to make your purchase as typically this is when best prices/rebates offered on bodies.


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## pakngah (Oct 15, 2012)

I think Canon really built this 6D for rebels user upgrading to FF. Cheapest option to me is used 5d (2005-2008). But I need movie function for my 3yo daughter (my reason for 550d), so 5d is out. (d700 too) 

5dm2 should be enough for me (mostly took Landscape & Portrait Photography). My only concern is 5dm2 AI Servo AF when taking candid photo of my daughter. With my 550d, keeper is very low. I think 5dm2 got little advantage with additional 6 AF assist during AI Servo.

Then came 6D, 
-with native ISO 100-25600 (as 5dm3) compare to 100-6400 in 5dm2.
-centre cross AF f5.6 and vertical line f2.8 compare to centre (f2.8 line and f5.6 line) in 5dm2. (as i only use centre point only).
-AF -3 EV compare to -0.5 EV in 5dm2
-AI Servo with tracking sensitivity as 7d, 5dm3 compare to default in 5dm2
-AFMA with wide and tele value each for zoom lens compare only 1 value in 5dm2

and I plan to get the basic flavor with no gps, no wifi (cheapest maybe?)

And for all this reason, i cancel for jump ship and looking foward for full real world review of 6D. 


PS: table that i attach in my 1st post is from here:

http://www.canon.com.my/personal/products/interchangeable-lens-camera/dslr-eos/eos-6d?languageCode=EN#specificationAnchor

So i'm so sure 6D will sell with 3 flavor !!! 8)


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## Imagination_landB (Oct 15, 2012)

Uh, I doubt this is an error isince it's written on an official canon site, but why malaysia.. only time will tell.. It suprises me a lot. It says there will be 2 not 3 variant.. One without GPS and WIFI. if it can cut the price by 150-250$ it would be great!


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## pakngah (Oct 15, 2012)

3 variant is based on table 2. Or maybe only 2 variant and the 3rd one is typping error??

Another feature that i guess in 6D is support STM lens (EF 40 f2.8 STM) where it employs "Stepping Motor Technology". Which allows the lens to focus very quietly and useful in movie capture. AFIK, AF in video mode body dependant with only the 650D allowing for it. But the pancake is EF lens not EFs. So if this prosumer 6D don't support STM, which FF model will support this prosumer lens?


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## wickidwombat (Oct 15, 2012)

whatever it comes out as I am willing to bet it wont take long for prices to drop sharply on these babies, definately would not want to be a bleeding edge first adopter on them.
for anyone that only uses center point AF ala 5d mk1 and mk2 then I think AF will be fine, 
personally the liberation that has come with the 5Dmk3 AF for me was well worth the additional cost
however anyone that thinks the 6D AF will be any less limiting than the 5D 1&2 AF will be pretty disappointed I think. the other benefit of these coming out is used 5Dmk2 prices should go down too which should be good for those looking to buy, for me i wont sell my 5Dmk2s i'll just keep them as backups or loaners to second shooters. just not worth selling and they still take fantastic images


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## Canon-F1 (Oct 15, 2012)

there is only one 6D model ... not three models.
if there would be three models i guess they had told me on photokina.

but i like the idea... as long as it makes the 6D as much cheaper as canon charges for a WIFI grip.


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## gngan (Oct 15, 2012)

jocau said:


> Almost the same story here. I own a 550D, 18-55mm F/3.5-5.6 IS, 50mm F/1.8 II, 70-200mm F/4L IS and a Speedlite EX580 II. Also looking forward to a Fullframe body. I must admit that I'm disappointed with the 6D specs. I was at least expecting all focuspoints to be crosstype and a 100% coverage viewfinder. The Nikon D600 is a lot more interesting, but I hate selling all my gear and I just can't say goodbye to my 70-200m F/4L IS since no other brand has an alternative for it.



Same story here. 550D + Sigma 17-50 2.8 + 50 1.8 + 70-200 IS F4. I sold my Canon 10-22 and 24-105 cause i was going to upgrade to FF but very disappointed with the 6D spec. I will need to look at the review before deciding 6D or 5D mark 3.

I can afford the 5d mark 3 but i rather save those money and get some L lenses.


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## crasher8 (Oct 15, 2012)

This might be marketed at countries with regulations on wifi, gps and signal transmission. It may be that the US gets the full version only and thus the highest priced model of the 3.


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## mdrewpix (Oct 15, 2012)

People, stop crapping on the 6D!!! Those who are "disappointed" without ever having shot a single frame with this camera are just being foolish. There is no way that Canon would build a camera that is worse than a four-year old model like the 5DII. Seriously, Canon is not stupid. They want to sell quality. Assuming that the AF is going to be bad based on the number of cross-type points is crazy. Billions upon billions of photos have been shot on 5DII's with it's admittedly mediocre AF. But to assume that a modern camera like the 6D won't be an order of magnitude better based on a spec sheet is just plain crazy.
Wait for some real-world tests by actual photographers - not gadget guides like Engadget or their ilk but people who actually make their living with photos and video - and then decide. In the meantime, quit prowling the fora and go take some pictures with what you already have. Become a better photographer. Then maybe you'll be able to make a truly informed decision.
Stop hating on cameras - or anything else for that matter - based on numbers on a website. If after shooting with the 6D you still feel the same way, then feel free to hate away.


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## Frost (Oct 15, 2012)

Had a chance to play with the 6D a little at the Exposure show in Toronto yesterday. Although the card slots were NOT glued over, I didn't have a card with me to bring back files to peak at...

However, the AF worked quite well. I was able to lock focus on the rafters, which were VERY dark, instantly with the 70-200mm. It worked almost as fast with the 24-105mm.

I was going to drop the money a 5d mk ii, but after holding it my hand and playing around...I think I'll be saving up a few more pennies and getting the 6D after the early adopters run through the first batches and the price drops a little.

Solid camera that fills a gap and updates on the 5d mk ii' abilities.

Cheers.


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## gngan (Oct 15, 2012)

mdrewpix said:


> People, stop crapping on the 6D!!! Those who are "disappointed" without ever having shot a single frame with this camera are just being foolish. There is no way that Canon would build a camera that is worse than a four-year old model like the 5DII. Seriously, Canon is not stupid. They want to sell quality. Assuming that the AF is going to be bad based on the number of cross-type points is crazy. Billions upon billions of photos have been shot on 5DII's with it's admittedly mediocre AF. But to assume that a modern camera like the 6D won't be an order of magnitude better based on a spec sheet is just plain crazy.
> Wait for some real-world tests by actual photographers - not gadget guides like Engadget or their ilk but people who actually make their living with photos and video - and then decide. In the meantime, quit prowling the fora and go take some pictures with what you already have. Become a better photographer. Then maybe you'll be able to make a truly informed decision.
> Stop hating on cameras - or anything else for that matter - based on numbers on a website. If after shooting with the 6D you still feel the same way, then feel free to hate away.



So people can't be disappointed with the spec? I can't rent the 6D when it's out so i will have to base of the spec now and review later before buying it. I know i won't be able to fully use the 6D but as a consumer, I would like to spend my money on the best possible product. I am disappointed with the 6D spec because it doesn't even have 7D's AF, which i don't think it's too much to ask. Moreover, the specs are worst than D600. Not that D600 is the best cause it has its downside but it looks to me 6D and D600 specs are very far away. That is why I am waiting for a proper review for 6D before deciding.

I have a feeling that Canon is holding up a lot of their technologies. They are slowly releasing bits and pieces while other manufacturers are releasing bigger updates/upgrades. Canon thinks that they can do this because they are leading the industry. I just hope other manufacturers will catch up and make Canon competitive again.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 15, 2012)

crasher8 said:


> This might be marketed at countries with regulations on wifi, gps and signal transmission. It may be that the US gets the full version only and thus the highest priced model of the 3.



Yep. For example, there are both a 600EX-RT and a 600-EX (no radio control), but the latter is only available in certain markets, and the USA isn't one of them.


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## sb (Oct 15, 2012)

pakngah said:


> My only concern is 5dm2 AI Servo AF when taking candid photo of my daughter.



I'm not sure why you would use servo for candids. I shoot wedding candids all day long and I only ever use single shot. I have never once used the servo mode on my camera (other than screwing around when I first got the camera years ago) I think the purpose of servo is seriously misunderstood.


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## Drizzt321 (Oct 15, 2012)

pakngah said:


> 3 variant is based on table 2. Or maybe only 2 variant and the 3rd one is typping error??
> 
> Another feature that i guess in 6D is support STM lens (EF 40 f2.8 STM) where it employs "Stepping Motor Technology". Which allows the lens to focus very quietly and useful in movie capture. AFIK, AF in video mode body dependant with only the 650D allowing for it. But the pancake is EF lens not EFs. So if this prosumer 6D don't support STM, which FF model will support this prosumer lens?



All of Canon's reasonably recent cameras support the STM lenses such as the 40mm pancake. Works just fine! However, the only current SLR models that support live video AF is the T4i/650D that was recently released. Also the EOS-M, but that seems to be basically the T4i stuffed into a smaller body without the mirror box and a smaller lens mount (with an adapter for EF/EF-S lenses). So if you want AF while capturing video, you need the T4i right now. Otherwise, you don't have it and need to buy a dedicated video device. 

I'm actually frankly a little surprised that Canon didn't include the live AF in video on the 6D, it seems a logical progression for those coming from the Rebel world.


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## unfocused (Oct 15, 2012)

Just a word of warning. I don't think anyone should count on being able to choose between a new 6D and a new 5DII. 

Once the 6D hits the shelves, expect the 5DII to disappear. At a minimum, all rebates and discounts on any remaining 5DIIs in dealers' stock will end and dealers will quit receiving any new shipments. Canon did a remarkable job of pulling the 580EXII and making it impossible to find. Expect the same with the 5DII.

Refurbished and used models will remain, but they could very well be selling for as much or more than new models are now going for. 

It is not in Canon's best interests to allow consumers to choose between the 6D and a heavily discounted 5DII. By the time the 6D is available, your choices on the new market will be the 6D or the 5DIII.


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## chadders (Oct 15, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Just a word of warning. I don't think anyone should count on being able to choose between a new 6D and a new 5DII.
> 
> Once the 6D hits the shelves, expect the 5DII to disappear. At a minimum, all rebates and discounts on any remaining 5DIIs in dealers' stock will end and dealers will quit receiving any new shipments. Canon did a remarkable job of pulling the 580EXII and making it impossible to find. Expect the same with the 5DII.
> 
> ...



Absolutely spot on. And the price for the few remaining 580EXII's in the UK seems to have increased.


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## Trovador (Oct 15, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Just a word of warning. I don't think anyone should count on being able to choose between a new 6D and a new 5DII.
> 
> Once the 6D hits the shelves, expect the 5DII to disappear. At a minimum, all rebates and discounts on any remaining 5DIIs in dealers' stock will end and dealers will quit receiving any new shipments. Canon did a remarkable job of pulling the 580EXII and making it impossible to find. Expect the same with the 5DII.
> 
> ...



Pleeeeeease, let the 6D have similar IQ to the 5DmkIII. I'm really counting on this. Today's US$1,549 deal for the MkII is really tempting!. We'll see.


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## ishdakuteb (Oct 15, 2012)

sb said:
 

> ... I think the purpose of servo is seriously misunderstood.



i am insteresting in your understanding about ai servo. as if you would like to share, i am your audiance...

note: i am using both (with dof button re-config), depending on cases


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## pakngah (Oct 16, 2012)

I just read http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3280866 and one guy told that it is possible that 6 AF-assist points (5dm2) are actually retained in 6D and plus 2 additional points (total= 11 AF points + 8 AF-assist). 

IINM, there are AI Servo and AI Servo II right? All new camera body get AI Servo II or only for pro body?


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## sb (Oct 16, 2012)

ishdakuteb said:


> sb said:
> 
> 
> > ... I think the purpose of servo is seriously misunderstood.
> ...



Ok, so let me start by saying that in my world of candids (i.e. weddings) unless the eye closest to the camera is critically sharp, the picture goes to the virtual trash can. Even a slight focus error (say I focused on the eyeglass frames) is completely unacceptable. In fact, nothing short of tack sharp eye(s) can be passed on to the client.

Second thing that needs mentioning is that I shoot wide open with fast primes. So f/1.4 is where I live.

With that being said, servo could never do for me what I do manually with single shot:

- Servo is reactive, not proactive. It doesn't know where your subject is GOING TO BE, it can only tell where the subject moved after it already happened. Once subject moves out of focus, servo is catching up. This is especially a problem when the subject is moving straight towards or away from you. 

- Servo can't predict people's reactions. I can tell by the body language whether a person is going to lean forward or backwards once they start laughing at the incredibly hilarious joke they just heard from a person they were chatting with.

- Servo doesn't understand that focus needs to be on the eye of the subject or the picture is useless. To ensure that I get the eye in focus, I use single focus point only. I dont want the camera making a mistake. Unfortunately you can't use servo with a single focus point only 

- With candids, timing is everything. So I want to take a picture exactly when the time is right, not when servo catches up to the subject. So it is much faster for me to wait it out and focus in the split second when the moment is right, than to let servo chase the subject around and be completely in the wrong place when I need to take the picture. 

But I'm not saying that servo is useless, don't get me wrong. In other types of photography where subjects that are moving really fast and failure rate is really high (flying birds, fast action sports etc) servo can be of tremendous value. I can't imagine shooing a soccer game without it (unless I'm shooting the goalie only ). Continuous fast action requires a completely different approach to photography, especially if you don't know what that "right moment" will be.


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## RLPhoto (Oct 16, 2012)

I would switch out my 7D for the 6D, but canon dumped the multi-selector switch on the 6D and made it more 60D-ish.

Argghhhh!?!??!


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## ishdakuteb (Oct 16, 2012)

sb said:


> Ok, so let me start by saying that in my world of candids (i.e. weddings) unless the eye closest to the camera is critically sharp, the picture goes to the virtual trash can. Even a slight focus error (say I focused on the eyeglass frames) is completely unacceptable. In fact, nothing short of tack sharp eye(s) can be passed on to the client.
> 
> Second thing that needs mentioning is that I shoot wide open with fast primes. So f/1.4 is where I live.
> 
> ...



thanks for the explaination and yep i can clearly see the different in understanding about ai servo between you and i. about "unfortunately you can't use servo with a single focus point only", i can say that i have been using single focus point along with ai servo and i have never missed my shots - desired focus point(s) is always sharp and in focus... but still depend on how fast the subject is moving. (note: i do not like dof button of 5d mark iii probably my hand is too small to reach that button)

i do not have canon ai servo design or implemtation in hands, but what do you think if i say that i believe that ai servo is designed not based on prediction, but tracking data properties of desired focus point?


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## Imagination_landB (Oct 17, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> crasher8 said:
> 
> 
> > This might be marketed at countries with regulations on wifi, gps and signal transmission. It may be that the US gets the full version only and thus the highest priced model of the 3.
> ...


Ahhh this is THE why. Thank you. So USA/CANADA might have just one version.. I would have prefer to have a version minus the gps and wifi for less money but whatever..


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## Nishi Drew (Oct 17, 2012)

mdrewpix said:


> People, stop crapping on the 6D!!! Those who are "disappointed" without ever having shot a single frame with this camera are just being foolish. There is no way that Canon would build a camera that is worse than a four-year old model like the 5DII. Seriously, Canon is not stupid. They want to sell quality. Assuming that the AF is going to be bad based on the number of cross-type points is crazy. Billions upon billions of photos have been shot on 5DII's with it's admittedly mediocre AF. But to assume that a modern camera like the 6D won't be an order of magnitude better based on a spec sheet is just plain crazy.
> Wait for some real-world tests by actual photographers - not gadget guides like Engadget or their ilk but people who actually make their living with photos and video - and then decide. In the meantime, quit prowling the fora and go take some pictures with what you already have. Become a better photographer. Then maybe you'll be able to make a truly informed decision.
> Stop hating on cameras - or anything else for that matter - based on numbers on a website. If after shooting with the 6D you still feel the same way, then feel free to hate away.



Now this is exactly the kind of argument that ignores the big picture (literally!). Now, how many 5dMkII shots have you seen that had focus issues or the ones that completely missed/didn't get the shot at all because it didn't lock? Oh wait, those pictures aren't posted anywhere because they've been trashed!! It's not the AF that makes great photos, or a 100% VF, or does the addition of Wifi/GPS change it for that matter, but a professional camera system is about "getting the shot" and more so as you rise up the chain of pro bodies, rather than "creating the shot" as better AF, ISO performance and faster FPS all aid in capturing the moment.

And "...Become a better photographer. Then maybe you'll be able to make a truly informed decision." Aha, yes, because YOU are the best photog here who can compare against say whatever he wants to everyone else here. Sure as the saying goes, a great photog can take great pictures with any camera, but that same photog will also want the best tools and capabilities to further develop, enhance and express his work. The 6D doesn't quite exist yet, but look over there, a D600 that beats the 6D purely by spec, what does the 6D have that's make it any more appealing, for the exact same price? Wi-fi and GPS built in, and 1AF point that might be more accurate than what the MarkII has...

It's crazy indeed that the 6D isn't an order of magnitude better than the 5dMarkII, I know, Canon must be insane! 
Also, the issue isn't so much Canon being bad, it's every other manufacturer actually delivering compelling gear at a great price point. I want a new camera now and this mysterious 6D won't be out and reviewed until next year, if Canon were really smart then missing pre-Christmas release with a "rebel upgrade FF" is completely ridiculous


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## pakngah (Oct 17, 2012)

Guys, can anyone give me more information about Canon *AI Servo* and *AI Servo II*?? found nothing from wiki and google. Really appreciate your help.


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## ishdakuteb (Oct 17, 2012)

pakngah said:


> Guys, can anyone give me more information about Canon *AI Servo* and *AI Servo II*?? found nothing from wiki and google. Really appreciate your help.



i am not sure if this is help, but try to follow this link (page 5): http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/infobank/autofocus/autofocus.do


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## verysimplejason (Oct 17, 2012)

Trovador said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Just a word of warning. I don't think anyone should count on being able to choose between a new 6D and a new 5DII.
> ...



Who knows? It might be better. If it is, it's not the first time Canon did this (remember 5d2?)...


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## DV333 (Oct 18, 2012)

Frost said:


> Had a chance to play with the 6D a little at the Exposure show in Toronto yesterday. Although the card slots were NOT glued over, I didn't have a card with me to bring back files to peak at...
> 
> However, the AF worked quite well. I was able to lock focus on the rafters, which were VERY dark, instantly with the 70-200mm. It worked almost as fast with the 24-105mm.
> 
> ...



I also attended Exposure. Played with the 6D LIKE IT. DIDNT put my card in it (dont know why) but seems like it is a baby FF and performs amazing for the price. Dont know if it was money well spent for me choosing the "PAD" focal area or not. But for a feel of the thing... its well worth the wait... ???


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## sanj (Oct 18, 2012)

ishdakuteb said:


> sb said:
> 
> 
> > ... I think the purpose of servo is seriously misunderstood.
> ...



It is very obvious to me that servo focus should be used every time the distance between camera and subject is changing, even it it is by inches. And this applies to candid shots especially as generally there is movement. Thx.


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