# Any chance of an 80D surprise?



## K (Jan 17, 2016)

Nikon released two bodies and that was unexpected. Any chance Canon does the same?

A few months back, there were some killer sales on 70D bodies with printer combos for like $650 from authorized dealers. That to me looks like inventory reduction. The 70D has been out a while, and being a consumer level camera, is most likely to see update than a pro camera. The Nikon D500 came out of the blue. I don't recall there being any rumors about it. 

The 70D is still a very capable and relevant camera by today's standards, and being that Canon is kinda slow on updates and conservative in their view of new features, maybe it won't happen. Then again, with the Rebel being what it is, it could be squeezing the 70D....

The Rebel currently has a newer sensor, more MP and better IQ than the 70D. While it has very good live view AF, it isn't as good as the dual-pixel, but it's pretty good. It still lacks several enthusiast features, but those alone don't make up for being weaker on IQ than the entry-level DSLR.

Unless you need a specific feature that only the 70D has, for the money ...there's no reason to go with it.


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## StudentOfLight (Jan 17, 2016)

My guess is a September announcement (perhaps alongside a 6D-Mark-II)

DSLR with Full articulating LCD

24MP DPAF CMOS
65pt AF (All cross-type)
8 fps
CFast

Video (8bit 4:2:0)
4K UHD @ 25/30p
1080 @ 96p


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## Plainsman (Jan 17, 2016)

@studentoflight:

Canon still behind Nikon here i.e. will the 80D have f8 AF like the D7100 (and how old is that one...?) so that we can have the 100-400 useable with the 1.4X TC on a 24Mp hi-res crop camera......


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jan 17, 2016)

Plainsman said:


> @studentoflight:
> 
> Canon still behind Nikon here i.e. will the 80D have f8 AF like the D7100 (and how old is that one...?) so that we can have the 100-400 useable with the 1.4X TC on a 24Mp hi-res crop camera......


As I used a D7100 rented by another photographer, I must say I would be happy if the AF works well with F5.6 lens. F8 lenses? Forget!

Unfortunately, even with the AF assist beam in flash, D7100 is very slow and hunting to focus in low light. Not in total darkness, but only moderate light fluorescent lamps in a children's party room.


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## K (Jan 17, 2016)

If Canon makes the 80D too good, it can hurt 7D2 sales. Too weak, and it isn't much better than a Rebel.

I speculated about 6 months back that there may never be an 80D if Canon moves the Rebels up a touch, and the flagship 7D2 comes down in price, which it has. Sale prices from authorized dealers on the 7D2 are so low, what could an 80D possibly release at to make it worthwhile for the money? 

Also what features would make someone want to skip a Rebel, but not necessarily need a 7D2? Other than AFMA over the Rebel and articulating touch screen over the 7D2, I can't think of anything.

Canon would have to release the 80D at a price right between the 7D2 and Rebel. And set it up to be an in between camera.

Maybe the 80D is a dead concept? 

Might be better to just release like a Rebel extreme or a higher end Rebel. Something that would replace the 70D, but keep in line with the Rebels and compete with the D7200.

Canon has this gap to deal with. Especially in AF. Canon AF goes form the 19pt system up to the 61/65 point system. Nothing in between. 


Nikon isn't stingy like Canon, and has no problem offering up the 51pt system on their D7100/7200. Canon is a bit stingy, and has kept their higher end AF on the 5D series cameras and the 7D2. Not even the 6D was given anything more than a 2008 era 11pt.

It's another one of these wedge issues I like to call it. Canon likes to treat features as make-or-break for certain types of photography to segment their product lines and force up selling. That is unfortunate. So either Canon needs to engineer a middle of the road AF system that is better than the 19pt system, but weaker than the 60 point systems to quite appearing stingy and or lacking innovation OR just give these $1,000+ MSRP cameras the 60 point systems and be done with it. 

Then there is the FPS. The 70D puts out a respectable 7fps. For anyone except the most serious wildlife and sports people, 7FPS is quite usable. No problem doing sports and wildlife with that casually. Heck, millions have been doing ok with 5fps for years and years. So moving up in FPS would also chip away at the 7D2. 8fps? Unlikely. Give it a 60 point AF system? That could tip the scales for someone to buy an 80D and not a 7D2.



One idea could be, leave the FPS the same. Even leave the AF the same points, maybe make it better at low light a little. Basically, make it the IQ king of APS-C in the lineup. Use the new sensor tech and have 24-28mp, and just deliver the best IQ with a nice touch screen and video features. 7D2 is the rough and tough sports camera, the 80D is the peak of APS-C IQ and video. Rebels are Rebels.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jan 17, 2016)

K said:


> Nikon isn't stingy like Canon, and has no problem offering up the 51pt system on their D7100/7200. Canon is a bit stingy, and has kept their higher end AF on the 5D series cameras and the 7D2. Not even the 6D was given anything more than a 2008 era 11pt.


In my practical experience, the modest T2i + 18-55mm STM, is faster and more accurate focus (with the central focus point) than D7100 + 18-105mm, both in dark environments.

I do not care if there are 60 focus points to choose from ... I just want the central focus point to work well in dark environments.


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## unfocused (Jan 17, 2016)

K said:


> ...what features would make someone want to skip a Rebel, but not necessarily need a 7D2?



80D with:

Articulating Screen
Touch Screen
DPAF
Variable speed follow focus using touch screen
1080 at +70 fps
4K video
Headphone Jack

In other words, the next generation of video-focused DSLR for budget filmmakers unable to afford the Cinema line or the 1DX II. Optimizing the 80D for cinema will not negatively impact 7DII sales, which is optimized for sports, birds and wildlife. 

There are enough extra features in the 1DX and Cinema so it would not impact those sales. But it would be a nice introductory camera for beginning filmmakers, as well as a good crash camera for professionals. 

The future of DSLRs lies in specialization and niche markets.


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## StudentOfLight (Jan 17, 2016)

unfocused said:


> K said:
> 
> 
> > ...what features would make someone want to skip a Rebel, but not necessarily need a 7D2?
> ...


Precisely!


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## Aj6627 (Jan 17, 2016)

I'm going to be getting either a 7d Mk II or an 80D(if announced) sometime this year.

The things that would tip me in favor of an 80d would be better high ISO handling and an articulated screen.

I was dubious with the screen on the 70d, but I like being able to put it away to protect it.


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## unfocused (Jan 18, 2016)

K said:


> The Rebel currently has a newer sensor, more MP and _better IQ than the 70D_.



I'm just curious what makes you believe the Rebels have "better IQ than the 70D?"


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## nhz (Jan 18, 2016)

K said:


> If Canon makes the 80D too good, it can hurt 7D2 sales. Too weak, and it isn't much better than a Rebel.
> 
> I speculated about 6 months back that there may never be an 80D if Canon moves the Rebels up a touch, and the flagship 7D2 comes down in price, which it has. Sale prices from authorized dealers on the 7D2 are so low, what could an 80D possibly release at to make it worthwhile for the money?
> 
> ...



You make a lot of good points in your post and I agree with almost everything. However your (and others) view on price is a bit US-centric IMHO. There haven't been any great deals on the 7D2 over here in Europe, it is still VERY expensive. The 70D has gradually come down in price and is now priced a bit above the 760D (which is about right I guess, given the older sensor and a few minor features over the Rebel). The huge price drops in the US are probably more related to exchange rates.

As to the 'wedge issues': I also find that Canon doesn't make a camera that I really like, while Nikon comes very close with several models. And this is definitely due to the way that Canon offers certain features only in combinations. Want a tilt screen AND AF micro-adjust (and up-to-date sensor)? Little choice ... Want a capable AF system and a light camera? As a Canon customer you are out of luck ...

I would probably buy the T6(i) if only it had AF micro-adjust. I would buy the 7D2 if it had a tilt screen, a better sensor (better especially for low ISO DR, don't care about extreme high ISO) and lower weight (really, it's almost a FF camera). I would buy the 6D2 if it had a tilt screen and a bit more capable AF. Etc. ...

Despite my preference for Canon glass, I'm going to move to Nikon or Sony this year unless they surprise me with a capable SL2, 80D, 6D2. But given how Canon groups features in cameras, I'm not holding my breath for Canon to deliver.


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## Don Haines (Jan 18, 2016)

And remember, when the 70D came out, it was superior to the 7D in most aspects..... There is nothing that says that the 80D won't do the same to the 7DII...... We don't have a clue as to what is planned for the 80D or for the 7D3.


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## Luds34 (Jan 18, 2016)

StudentOfLight said:


> My guess is a September announcement (perhaps alongside a 6D-Mark-II)



That's kind of what my gut tells me as well. By this fall I'd think both those models, falling into more consumer based products, will be do for a refresh.

The only issue is, that other's have eluded to, is where does the xxD line go? The 70D is still very much relevant and it's kind of a fine line to place it between the Rebel and the 7D. Of course, I'd argue for ergonomics alone there will always be a place for the xxD, not everyone wants a small Rebel size body. The 70D is a great camera, and especially at the prices one can get one for. It packs a lot of punch in the action/sports area.

The 6D on the other hand, I feel is due a bit more for a refresh. But that's another discussion.


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## Plainsman (Jan 18, 2016)

Maybe its time for Canon to merge the 7D2 line with the xxD starting with the 80D.
I just want a hi-res 24Mp crop camera that will AF with a 100-400 @560mm, Mr Canon.


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## tcmatthews (Jan 18, 2016)

I do not think there will be a 70D successor this year 6D II is a maybe. 

Canon releases cameras on a schedule that is convenient for them not you. Several years ago my first 60D was flooded out. It was my own fault but I needed a new camera. I fell back on using my Rebel XS. There was all this talk about the rumored 70D was about to be announced. The date of the rumored announcement came and what was announced was the EOS-M. 

Now I wanted a small travel camera but the EOS-M was a joke. The Canon 6D announced later that year was too late and too expensive I needed a camera before then.

In the end I pre-ordered the Nex6 and bought a second 60D. I considered buying an updated Rebel but I was having trouble adjusting back to the single control dial on my Rebel XS. 

I may be a little jaded at this point. As for the sales there were killer deals for the 7DII as well and I do not think it will have a refresh anytime soon.


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## nhz (Jan 18, 2016)

Plainsman said:


> Maybe its time for Canon to merge the 7D2 line with the xxD starting with the 80D.
> I just want a hi-res 24Mp crop camera that will AF with a 100-400 @560mm, Mr Canon.



That seems unlikely to me within the next year or so given the relatively recent introduction of the 7D2, which in every way is an upgraded 7D. A 80D with better sensor and AF than 70D might merge the lines, but only if it comes in late 2016/2017 after 7D2 sales have faded (still seems to be the most popular crop camera for wildlife etc.). I remember similar discussions about merging APS-C lines when the T6 was introduced ;-)

I would also like a hires crop camera that has capable AF with the 100-400 (with a 1.4x converter, if possible). The 7D2 is the only option for that, but it is too heavy for my taste and lacks a tilt screen which I need for many of my macro/close-up shots. The Rebels are probably good enough as long as you don't add a TC or require fast tracking, but they lack AFMA which can be critical for getting the best image quality and the crappy viewfinder doesn't help either.

When Canon starts merging lines, they could also merge the SL1/2 and the Rebel T6 into one line (competing with cameras like Nikon D5500), and maybe keep an additional ultra-cheap T5/1200D Rebel entry model.


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## Ozarker (Jan 26, 2016)

nhz said:


> K said:
> 
> 
> > If Canon makes the 80D too good, it can hurt 7D2 sales. Too weak, and it isn't much better than a Rebel.
> ...



You do know the 70D has the articulating screen AND AF micro adjust. Is the sensor the problem? Love my 70D. 

If my 5D Mark III had an articulating screen with the 70D DPAF it would be the perfect camera for me.

Maybe the 5D Mark IV (I wish they'd name it 5DX) will have all of that and a fast frame rate too (12fps). That would be a great camera. If the 1DX Mark II has a real high frame rate the new 5D won't hurt it.


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## K (Jan 29, 2016)

unfocused said:


> K said:
> 
> 
> > The Rebel currently has a newer sensor, more MP and _better IQ than the 70D_.
> ...




While processing goes a long way...the new Rebels have a 24mp newer generation sensor. They slightly edge out the 70D in IQ. 

In fairness, it isn't by much. Practically unnoticeable by practical standards, must pixel peep it. But they're better.

The 80D will leapfrog them for certain, and probably the 7D2 also.


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## Sporgon (Jan 29, 2016)

Looks like the answer is "yes"


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## Don Haines (Jan 29, 2016)

K said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > K said:
> ...


With one exception, every Canon crop camera that I remember has been a bit (or more) better than the one that was released before it in terms of IQ..... I would be very surprised if it wasn't a bit better than the 7D2. Progress marches on!


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## tcmatthews (Jan 29, 2016)

I hope it is true. Now for the question is it a token update or do they feel the need to put 4k in there video focused entry level DSLR.


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## Don Haines (Jan 29, 2016)

tcmatthews said:


> I hope it is true. Now for the question is it a token update or do they feel the need to put 4k in there video focused entry level DSLR.



I have had 4K in a GoPro for the last 3 years..... if they wanted to, they could do it. It is highly likely that the camera will support the UHS-II interface for the SD cards, so that gives you an incredibly fast storage option so 4K video could be done without compressing the image to death......


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## nickolas (Feb 13, 2016)

what about the shity mud blur filter like video of canon even in the old 5d mkiii....many of as bought a 70d,7d mkii or even a 5d mkiii for video purposses...i personally don't care about 4k or 120fps,can canon give me a clear video with good quality at 60fps hd..??it's much more easy to shoot with canon bodys and the lenses are awesome but the quality sucks compare to sony,nikon or panasonic(search the net or do some test's..)...what i want is a 70d at TRUE hd 60fps and BETTER iso and i cant wait forever like september or 2017....i love canon i love the skin tones,battery's,grip's,lenses...but in the end everything is about image quality and sony,nikon can give to you even bad lenses..


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## hhkd (Feb 13, 2016)

I'd love to see an 80D this year. I won't buy it until next year (wedding, new truck, new shower) but high iso improvement is most important for me. The ergonomics of the XXD line are perfect and I can't justify the move to full frame since I might destroy the camera and lens while taking pictures from a kayak. Here's an ISO 3200 shot from my 60D, I'd like to get up to 12,800 with similar results. This was from a boat, I would never be near gators and pigs in a kayak.


Swamp Pig by Hashim D, on Flickr


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## ajfotofilmagem (Feb 13, 2016)

hhkd said:


> I'd love to see an 80D this year. I won't buy it until next year (wedding, new truck, new shower) but high iso improvement is most important for me. The ergonomics of the XXD line are perfect and I can't justify the move to full frame since I might destroy the camera and lens while taking pictures from a kayak. Here's an ISO 3200 shot from my 60D, I'd like to get up to 12,800 with similar results. This was from a boat, I would never be near gators and pigs in a kayak.
> 
> 
> Swamp Pig by Hashim D, on Flickr


You get great results with your 60D at ISO 3200.

I think it would be too optimistic to expect 80D will do as well in ISO12800, such as 60D in 3200. But it is possible that 80D is comparable in ISO6400.


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## PhotographyFirst (Feb 13, 2016)

Photo Rumors is saying the 80D should be announced soon. It will be interesting to see if it has the new sensor tech of the 1DX 2 That would just about guarantee the 6D2 and 5D4 will as well.


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## mkabi (Feb 13, 2016)

K said:


> If Canon makes the 80D too good, it can hurt 7D2 sales. Too weak, and it isn't much better than a Rebel.
> 
> I speculated about 6 months back that there may never be an 80D if Canon moves the Rebels up a touch, and the flagship 7D2 comes down in price, which it has. Sale prices from authorized dealers on the 7D2 are so low, what could an 80D possibly release at to make it worthwhile for the money?
> 
> ...



All valid points, but you have to see it another way as well.
In terms of DSLR competition, Nikon is it. They just announced the D5 & D500.
Canon responded with the 1DXII for the D5. What will be their answer for the D500???
Its direct competition should be the 7DII, but it lacks 4K.
And, that's basically it.

Canon has a few choices:
-they can release the 5D4 with 4K, that way neither Canon nor Nikon have an answer for each other's lower end releases. But I'm sure that Nikon will have an answer for that a year later, whereas Canon will always have a minimum 3-4 year release cycle.
-release 6DII with 4K, which is literally the same as the 5D4.
-release a firmware update to the 7DII, that unleashes 4K or UHD (this would be really sweet for a lot of current owners, including myself), yet to be owners may see a price hike.
-release 7DIII, highly unlikely.
-release 80D, more likely. Because, which is more older? The 7DII or the 70D? Which one is used more for video 7DII or 70D?

Ultimately, the 7DII is a mini-1DX, and used most for sports, wildlife... it does have slightly better video features than the 70D, but lacking the swivel screen and touch screen. The D500 is a mini-D5... which is newer... to have a mini-1DXII, we either have to wait or they can have a substitute for a while till the 7DIII is released.


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## K (Feb 14, 2016)

mkabi said:


> All valid points, but you have to see it another way as well.
> In terms of DSLR competition, Nikon is it. They just announced the D5 & D500.
> Canon responded with the 1DXII for the D5. What will be their answer for the D500???
> Its direct competition should be the 7DII, but it lacks 4K.
> And, that's basically it.



It's the other way around. The D500 is the answer to the 7D Mark II.

Nikon users have been screaming for high end sports/wildlife flagship APS-C since the D300. 

The only area where the D500 may be better than the 7D2 could be IQ in terms of ISO and DR, and that remains to be seen. But it stands to reason given it will have newer technology. I don't expect big leaps here, being that they're both crop and in a couple of years there is nothing revolutionary.

I doubt the Nikon AF system will be superior. Equal? Perhaps. I wouldn't be surprised if the 7D2 AF comes out on top, despite being older tech.

4K? Who cares. 4K is one of those things....it just isn't worth it unless it is done right. And to do it right is rare these days and expensive. Otherwise, 4K is just a token spec for marketing and publicity. 

Beyond those things, they are basically the same camera.

The 7D2 has DPAF...



If the 80D has dual SD slots, I will buy 2 of them.

If not, the 70D which will be blown out for $500 or less will be a super deal and great value.


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## afonsoclj (Feb 14, 2016)

K said:


> The only area where the D500 may be better than the 7D2 could be IQ in terms of ISO and DR, and that remains to be seen. But it stands to reason given it will have newer technology. I don't expect big leaps here, being that they're both crop and in a couple of years there is nothing revolutionary.



IMO the buffer size difference is what gives the victory to Nikon, being both sports-oriented cameras. And the same must be applied to the 1Dx2 x D5 competition. 12 stops of DR on 7D2 isn't that bad....


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## mkabi (Feb 14, 2016)

K said:


> 4K? Who cares. 4K is one of those things....it just isn't worth it unless it is done right. And to do it right is rare these days and expensive. Otherwise, 4K is just a token spec for marketing and publicity.



Spoken like a person that doesn't care for video features in his/her DSLR, right?
I mean... nobody will buy 4K DSLRs, what the hell were they thinking with the 1DX2? 
:



> The 7D2 has DPAF...



This I agree with.


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## nhz (Feb 14, 2016)

mkabi said:


> Ultimately, the 7DII is a mini-1DX, and used most for sports, wildlife... it does have slightly better video features than the 70D, but lacking the swivel screen and touch screen. The D500 is a mini-D5... which is newer... to have a mini-1DXII, we either have to wait or they can have a substitute for a while till the 7DIII is released.


A mini-1DXII sounds nice, however ... 

It's about time Canon gets sensor performance (especially at low ISO) that is about as good as Nikon/Sony; but I'm not holding my breath for that one. IMHO the D500 is better than 7D2 on almost every spec; of course it should be, because it is a more expensive camera. But the probably much better sensor, tilt screen and lots of other extras like Snapbridge make D500 a far more 'universal' camera to me than 7D2. 7D3 seems at least 2-3 years in the future, if Canon sticks to their usual schedule and I don't see how a 80D could bridge the gap without 'killing' the 7D2.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 14, 2016)

nhz said:


> mkabi said:
> 
> 
> > Ultimately, the 7DII is a mini-1DX, and used most for sports, wildlife... it does have slightly better video features than the 70D, but lacking the swivel screen and touch screen. The D500 is a mini-D5... which is newer... to have a mini-1DXII, we either have to wait or they can have a substitute for a while till the 7DIII is released.
> ...



except for things like the buffer depth is with QXD cards, 10fps is only with manual focus.. it's much heralded 4k is a heavy crop of a crop camera...

and this sept, the 7D2 will be two years old.

and btw, there's been enough leaks of the 1DX Mark II sensor to show that the low ISO latitude is close enough to the sony sensors to make it just an argument for the fanboys.


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## nhz (Feb 14, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> and btw, there's been enough leaks of the 1DX Mark II sensor to show that the low ISO latitude is close enough to the sony sensors to make it just an argument for the fanboys.


yeah, right ... typical Canon fanboy argument.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 14, 2016)

nhz said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > and btw, there's been enough leaks of the 1DX Mark II sensor to show that the low ISO latitude is close enough to the sony sensors to make it just an argument for the fanboys.
> ...



they posted a +5 EV shadow push from both the 1DX II and the 1DX. the A7RII looks slightly cleaner, but this was comparing ACR output to RAW therapee non optimal RAW conversion of 1DXII.

it's not a typical "fanboy argument" when it's already been discussed here, fm and dpr.

the 1DXII has ADC's on chip using some sort of SS or DS-ADC architecture.

an ISO 100 +5 EV shadow boost apparently looks similar to ISO 6400 OOC (not sure if that was JPG OOC) .. which means it's pretty close to ISO invariant. (if that was OOC JPG then probably is close, if that was RAW, then within an EV)

doing napkin math - within 1EV of ISO invariance should remove most of the problem domain outside of a few forum dwellers that have nothing better to do.


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## K (Feb 14, 2016)

mkabi said:


> K said:
> 
> 
> > 4K? Who cares. 4K is one of those things....it just isn't worth it unless it is done right. And to do it right is rare these days and expensive. Otherwise, 4K is just a token spec for marketing and publicity.
> ...




Nikon's implementation of 4K downright sucks. 4K is about ultimate quality. If it isn't done right, then there's no point to it. Proper 4K video capability right now is the territory of Canon flagships. Not Nikon cameras, or Canon enthusiast/consumer cameras.


Could Canon put 4K in the 80D? Yes. Would it be worthy? No.


I'd have to agree with others, the 80D just has to make sure it can compete (or surpass) with the Nikon D5500 and D7200. That means connectivity and other consumer interested features. Doubt 4K is high up on the list of consumer demand for DSLR video making....


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## nhz (Feb 16, 2016)

K said:


> mkabi said:
> 
> 
> > K said:
> ...


Agree that the 4K on D500 doesn't look attractive, except maybe for wildlife video where the crop factor might be an advantage. But the 80D apparently skips 4K completely..., for that you have to buy the 90D in 2 years or the more expensive 5D4 end of this year ;-)


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