# Why the Japan hate Canon



## squarebox (Mar 2, 2012)

So where the 5dIII is selling for $3500 USD in the states... Those of us in Japan get it at the lovely price of $4100 at today's exchange rates... This is why I buy all my canon stuff from the states... Was figuring it was goign to be more normalized with current exchange rates.. but apparantly not.


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## Positron (Mar 2, 2012)

This is nothing new. Electronics have been more expensive in Japan forever.


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## noxious_nasties (Mar 2, 2012)

What about the 4200 price we have here in Aus...


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## vjlex (Mar 2, 2012)

squarebox said:


> So where the 5dIII is selling for $3500 USD in the states... Those of us in Japan get it at the lovely price of $4100 at today's exchange rates... This is why I buy all my canon stuff from the states... Was figuring it was goign to be more normalized with current exchange rates.. but apparantly not.



i feel you brother. i'm in osaka. what part are you in? any idea what the customs or VAT or whatever is for importing a 5D3 (back) to Japan? I'm gonna have to get my family in the states to ship it to me out here. $3500 works out to like 290,000 yen. That's pretty significant compared to 358,000 yen.


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## thure1982 (Mar 2, 2012)

noxious_nasties said:


> What about the 4200 price we have here in Aus...



I called a Swedish reseller that is one of the big once.
We chitchatted for a while about the 5D3 and then I asked about preorder price.

31 000 Swedish kronor

translated

4 654.805 U.S. dollars


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## olemartin (Mar 2, 2012)

In norway it is sold for 5 358 US dollars


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## nighstar (Mar 2, 2012)

yeah.... the 4,200 AUD translates to 4,529 USD. makes me completely unsympathetic to the Americans who are complaining about the price.

i would ask my mom to ship me one from America, but i really want a warranty that i can use.


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## rambarra (Mar 2, 2012)

comparison of euro vs USD prices make little sense since in most european countries we have a thing called VAT !
It's a hefty +20% (depending on countries) in taxes only

So if you take 3299 EUR MSRP, make -20% from there it goes 2640 EUR, which at today's rate is 3511 USD
so no surpriese here!
r


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## Kernuak (Mar 2, 2012)

Or £2999, which is equivalent to $4759 in the UK. Still, on a positive note, that is a better comparison than when the 7D came out, as that was £1700 or around $2697, compared to $1700 in the US, so it's a bargain really. It also means that prices tend have more leeway to come down, once it's been out for a while. It doesn't make it any cheaper to import though, as the VAT and duty pushes the price up nearly as much, without a useful warranty.
Just noticed, that if you get the kit version with the 24-70 MkII, you save £1 on the price of a 1D X.


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## RedEye (Mar 2, 2012)

Hate to be the economist in the room, but of course the product is more expensive, it's being sold more economically close to the relative localized labor costs. You could probably isolate assembly labor and the difference between the US and Japan and throw in some exchange carry risk and all of a sudden they are about the same. 


The only other possibility is that the people of japan truly have more demand for cameras than use as the company recognizes it.


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## RedEye (Mar 2, 2012)

Hate to be the economist in the room, but of course the product is more expensive, it's being sold more economically close to the relative localized labor costs. You could probably isolate assembly labor and the difference between the US and Japan and throw in some exchange carry risk and all of a sudden they are about the same. 


The only other possibility is that the people of japan truly have more demand for cameras than use as the company recognizes it.


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## RedEye (Mar 2, 2012)

Hate to be the economist in the room, but of course the product is more expensive, it's being sold more economically close to the relative localized labor costs. You could probably isolate assembly labor and the difference between the US and Japan and throw in some exchange carry risk and all of a sudden they are about the same. 


The only other possibility is that the people of japan truly have more demand for cameras than use as the company recognizes it.


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## mkrimmer (Mar 2, 2012)

3.300 Euro or 4.363,-- USD in Germany


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## aramik (Mar 2, 2012)

On Finland preorder prices, what I have found, varies from 2999€ to 3800€ (4000$-5000$) for body only.


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## necator (Mar 2, 2012)

rambarra said:


> So if you take 3299 EUR MSRP, make -20% from there it goes 2640 EUR, which at today's rate is 3511 USD
> so no surpriese here!


Sorry to prove you wrong. You have your calculations wrong:
To subtract the 20% tax you'll have to calculate
3299/1.20 = 2749€ which would be 3633$. 133$ or 3.8% more expensive than in the US.

You wrongly calculated
3299*.80 = 2640€ wich would be a tax-rate of 3299/2640 => 25%


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## almograve (Mar 2, 2012)

olemartin said:


> In norway it is sold for 5 358 US dollars



That's almost 2K$ so that you can fly to NYC, enjoy the weekend AND get the camera at B&H


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## DavidGMiles (Mar 2, 2012)

Uk Price is just insane £3000 is equivalent to $4752.83 - whereas if we fly to B&H and buy one $3,499.00 is	£2,208.58


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## iFugl (Mar 2, 2012)

Norwegian price is NOK 29.990,- which is $5.345,-

The US price is $3.500,- which is NOK 19.635,-

Our VAT is 25% in Norway, so if we add that to 19.635,- we get NOK 24.543,- (roughly)

29990
- 24543
= 5447 (= USD $970)

So why do we pay $970 dollars more than US?
*I N S A N A N I T Y!*


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## Daniel Flather (Mar 2, 2012)

$3799 here in Canada, and I get a 16gb card with it; a Lexar 16 GB PRO 400X CF Memory Card.

Sure I'd like to pay $2999, but no dice. If you want it —pay.


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## 7enderbender (Mar 2, 2012)

iFugl said:


> Norwegian price is NOK 29.990,- which is $5.345,-
> 
> The US price is $3.500,- which is NOK 19.635,-
> 
> ...



I don't know for sure, but other than the very high average wages in Norway (thanks to your oil) there are also very high import tariffs. So I'm not sure if it's warranted to blame Canon for this (entirely or at all).

As a European immigrant to the US that's what I keep telling people: nothing is ever "free". If there are a lot "free" social services such as in Scandinavia then you pay higher taxes, tariffs and have reduced choices. Here in America a lot of stuff is cheaper but you also pay for other things out of pocket. So in the end it's usually pretty much a wash - at least in the Western and devolved world with that kind of income brackets. Everything else comes down to personal preferences.


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## thure1982 (Mar 2, 2012)

Even if I buy my house in US and have it shipped over here in Sweden then I still pay less for it ""IF"" the customs make me pay custom-fee and VAT.

It's about $500 less than what I will have to pay here.
And if I pass through customs without paying the VAT then there is a $1250 saving for me.


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## Rampado (Mar 2, 2012)

you´re crying too much!

Here in brazil, we don´t have pre order...

the OLD 5d mk II with 24-105 is 13.000 reais = 7514,45 US dollars (Canon Brazil link: http://www.loja.canon.com.br/ch/prod/456/4/0/eos-5d-mark-ii-kit-de-lente-ef24-105-f4l-is-usm.aspx )

the 1D IV body only is 18.500 reais = 10693,64 US dollars... ( http://www.loja.canon.com.br/ch/prod/292/4/0/eos-1d-mark-iv.aspx )

is there any more expensive place to be a photographer?


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## squarebox (Mar 21, 2012)

shunsai said:


> squarebox said:
> 
> 
> > So where the 5dIII is selling for $3500 USD in the states... Those of us in Japan get it at the lovely price of $4100 at today's exchange rates... This is why I buy all my canon stuff from the states... Was figuring it was goign to be more normalized with current exchange rates.. but apparantly not.
> ...



I'm in Nagoya. I recently bought a 35L from B&H and had it shipped directly to Japan and it worked out to about 4000 yen on a 9man lens... So it seems it is just the normal, current, sales tax of 5%.

for those of you wondering, the 35L sells for about $1700 USD... hence why i picked it up in the u.s. for the cheap cheap price of $1200.


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## squarebox (Mar 21, 2012)

shunsai said:


> squarebox said:
> 
> 
> > So where the 5dIII is selling for $3500 USD in the states... Those of us in Japan get it at the lovely price of $4100 at today's exchange rates... This is why I buy all my canon stuff from the states... Was figuring it was goign to be more normalized with current exchange rates.. but apparantly not.
> ...



forgot to mention, my mom shipped out two lenses for me a few months ago and i paid no tax on them. But i think you are playing the lottery with that. If they decide to tax you or not. But if you ship it to your parents, you might have to pay american sales tax which is higher than Japan's anyways, so just ship it direct. B&H shipping was stupid fast (got it in a week) and was cheap, only $35 for three lens with filters and hoods


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## dmills (Mar 21, 2012)

Sorry to take this even more off-topic, but Squarebox, I live in Hiroshima, and I ship lenses to my parents, but have been relying on waiting for people to bring things when they come on trips. Right now, I have a 2x extender, an 85L, and several other things sitting at my parents house waiting for a friend to come to Japan. How much did your mother mark the value of the lenses when shipping?


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## Grummbeerbauer (Mar 21, 2012)

rambarra said:


> comparison of euro vs USD prices make little sense since in most european countries we have a thing called VAT !
> It's a hefty +20% (depending on countries) in taxes only
> 
> So if you take 3299 EUR MSRP, make -20% from there it goes 2640 EUR, which at today's rate is 3511 USD
> ...



While your are in general right about VAT in European countries (which comes on top of income taxes which tend to be higher than in most of the rest of the world, BTW...  ), the math is

netPrice * (1 + VAT) = resalePrice

making the base price

netPrice = resalePrice / (1 + VAT)

Taking your 20% VAT (from Austria? ) as an example, this translates to

netPrice = resalePrice / 1,2 

which is not the same as subtracting 20%, but more like subtracting 16,6%.
Subtracting 20% would translate to 25% VAT, which is the unfortunate truth for some of our fellow Europeans.

Sorry for being pedantic. 

So for Germany with its 19% VAT that translates to roughly 16%, which turns those whopping 3300€ with VAT (at today's exchange rates that is ~4375 USD) into "merely" 2775€ or 3675USD.
Which indeed isn't that much more then the 3500$ in the US.
If you now consider that there is indeed a VAT in most US states (the range is from 0% to 13% according to Wikipedia), we Europeans might indeed not be that bad off, but for some reason one of the US guys can probably explain much better, consumers are usually not charged VAT when buying goods online or across state borders.
I feel *much *more shafted as a consumer when I compare prices of,e.g., European cars in Europe to those asked for the same cars in the US. Usually the money you pay for the bare model with the smallest engine gets you near the top-end engine and extras in the US. So its not the Japanese electronics companies screwing over the Europeans, but the European car manufactures ripping off their mates.


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## Bennymiata (Mar 21, 2012)

Here in Australia, we have a 10%GST (same as VAT), however, if I buy something for my business, and I do need to take photos of my products to send to customers and put them up on my website, then I get the GST back.
Retail price of a 5D3 in a big camera retailer like Digital Camera Warehouse is A$3999 (about US$4199), and if I deduct the GST charged on this I end up paying A$3635.45 (US$3817.22).
A bit higher than in the US, but I figure the local warranty is worth that much, and you can find cheaper retailers too.
But as far as luxury cars are concerned, we are REALLY ripped off over here.
A Porsche 911 Carrera for example, sells for around US$75K in the US, but here, the base model is well over A$230K!!!
And you know why?
Because you can't import a new Porsche and get it registered in OZ, because it won't have a local compliance plate so it can't be registered, even though it is exactly the same car as sold in the UK etc (right hand drive).
The funny thing is that import duty on new cars is only 5%, GST 10%, so where the hell does this huge difference come from?

Like Europe, we in Oz get virtually unlimited free health cover and when we get old, we get a government pension, as long as you aren't rich, so we are somewhere inbetween the US and Europe as far as social benefits go, and our minimum wage is around A$20 per hour, which is about 3 times what the minimum wage is in the US, hence some part of why we pay more for some goods.


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## bycostello (Mar 21, 2012)

squarebox said:


> So where the 5dIII is selling for $3500 USD in the states... Those of us in Japan get it at the lovely price of $4100 at today's exchange rates... This is why I buy all my canon stuff from the states... Was figuring it was goign to be more normalized with current exchange rates.. but apparantly not.



don't forget the US quote prices not including taxes....


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## V8Beast (Mar 21, 2012)

nighstar said:


> yeah.... the 4,200 AUD translates to 4,529 USD. makes me completely unsympathetic to the Americans who are complaining about the price.



Bahumbug. Have you seen how fat we Americans are? We need to save as much money on camera gear as possible so we can spend it on fried chicken and pork chops


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## XanuFoto (Mar 21, 2012)

I Canada its not so bad. But many still order from the US and the Warranty is the same.


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## squarebox (Mar 21, 2012)

dmills said:


> Sorry to take this even more off-topic, but Squarebox, I live in Hiroshima, and I ship lenses to my parents, but have been relying on waiting for people to bring things when they come on trips. Right now, I have a 2x extender, an 85L, and several other things sitting at my parents house waiting for a friend to come to Japan. How much did your mother mark the value of the lenses when shipping?



She just wrote the value as is for insurance reasons. This is just supposition, but I think the way it goes is that new goods get taxed. Goods that you have owned before and have used aren't taxed. This is how it works in Jamaica at least when bringing stuff there.


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## squarebox (Mar 21, 2012)

Bennymiata said:


> Here in Australia, we have a 10%GST (same as VAT), however, if I buy something for my business, and I do need to take photos of my products to send to customers and put them up on my website, then I get the GST back.
> Retail price of a 5D3 in a big camera retailer like Digital Camera Warehouse is A$3999 (about US$4199), and if I deduct the GST charged on this I end up paying A$3635.45 (US$3817.22).
> A bit higher than in the US, but I figure the local warranty is worth that much, and you can find cheaper retailers too.
> But as far as luxury cars are concerned, we are REALLY ripped off over here.
> ...



Not sure to the truth to this, but i thought that Australia had a 100% luxury tax on goods over $50k or something?


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## Positron (Mar 21, 2012)

squarebox said:


> I'm in Nagoya. I recently bought a 35L from B&H and had it shipped directly to Japan and it worked out to about 4000 yen on a 9man lens... So it seems it is just the normal, current, sales tax of 5%.
> 
> for those of you wondering, the 35L sells for about $1700 USD... hence why i picked it up in the u.s. for the cheap cheap price of $1200.



9 man is quite cheap for that lens. B&H has it listed for $1,379 (plus tax, and after instant rebate). Sounds like you got a good deal, in any case.



Bennymiata said:


> Here in Australia, we have a 10%GST (same as VAT), however, if I buy something for my business, and I do need to take photos of my products to send to customers and put them up on my website, then I get the GST back.



In the US we have tax deductions instead; if you buy something whose _primary_ use is for business, then instead of getting the sales tax back, we get to subtract the cost of the item from our taxable income (so it's as if we never made that money in the first place). Depending on how rich you are that could be a bigger savings than sales tax, but there's potential legal liability involved if you declare items like that for a self-run business, so it's not really as big a loophole as it sounds.



Grummbeerbauer said:


> If you now consider that there is indeed a VAT in most US states (the range is from 0% to 13% according to Wikipedia), we Europeans might indeed not be that bad off, but for some reason one of the US guys can probably explain much better, consumers are usually not charged VAT when buying goods online or across state borders.



It's super complicated! The one thing that's true everywhere is that for most consumer goods, the tax is not included in the sticker price (which I believe needs to change...), but aside from that there are a lot of differences, because taxes can be set at both the state and county levels, which is even more complicated because the states are federated while the counties are devolved!

In California, New York, and most of the other densely populated places in the US have a sales tax rate between 8% and 9%. 0% sales tax only exists in five states and is mostly a ploy to get people to come live there; they have higher other taxes (primarily property tax) to make up the lost income.

However, the rules for when sales tax is charged are also very complicated. Some items are immune to sales tax, like unprocessed groceries (fruits, vegetables, some meats, etc.). Most items are taxed, but if you purchase from out of state then even taxed items are sometimes not taxable. Usually it has to do with some "place of business" legal clauses. If you buy an item in the store, it is taxed, but if you have it shipped to another state, then it is only taxed if the destination address is a state in which the company selling it does business. So for example, I can order an item from B&H or Amazon and pay no sales tax, but if I order from Newegg or Canon I do pay normal taxes. This is problematic because it gives certain companies (read: Amazon) an enormous advantage on the sales of high-value items, since people in many states can save about 9% by buying there instead of in their local camera store. This is a big contributor to why all the local stores are going or gone out of business.

Whew, that was more than I intended to write.


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## squarebox (Mar 22, 2012)

Positron said:


> squarebox said:
> 
> 
> > I'm in Nagoya. I recently bought a 35L from B&H and had it shipped directly to Japan and it worked out to about 4000 yen on a 9man lens... So it seems it is just the normal, current, sales tax of 5%.
> ...



I bought back in January when it was 78 JPY to USD and it was on sale in the US (another thing the rest of the world doesn't get) for something like $200 off. Then no Tax. So when i picked it up i believe it was $1200 or something at the time.


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## Bennymiata (Mar 22, 2012)

Squarebox, we do have a Luxury Car Tax in Oz, for cars costing more than $57,466.
The tax is calculated at 33% of the pre-tax price for the value above $57,466, so this only goes a small way in trying to work out why luxury cars cost so much here.
So if you buy a car worth say $100K, you pay 33% Luxury tax on A$42,534 or $14,036.22 extra, but we don't have a gas guzzler tax like you do in the US, hence the poularity here for large 6's and V8's.
Mind you, cars like the Corollas etc., are similarly priced here compared to the US, so it's not all bad.

If buying something for business use, we get the GST back, and we also get a depreciation allowance on our company tax, but if the item is a computer or something valued at under A$1,000, we can get a 100% depreciation allowance on it in the first year.


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