# ST-E3 and Canon A-1



## Quasimodo (Oct 24, 2014)

I am just about to buy what seems to be a good copy (buying it from a person who bought it new) of the Canon A-1. This because I would like to explore film. 

I have a question: Is it possible for me to run the st-e3 with it (given the cameras limitation of 1/60 sync speed) and my 600s? I will buy it regardless, but I wonder if I can use my existing gear, or if I would have to buy a dedicated flash for it..

Thanks in advance,

Gerhard


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## LDS (Oct 24, 2014)

Because the A-1 was among the first cameras to be able to communicate (primitive) informations from/to the flash unit (IIRC flash ready, set sync speed and get the aperture set on the flash when using compatible units like the 199A) and thereby has more contacts than the single flash trigger one, beware what signals the ST-E3 could send to the camera if mounted in the hot shoe and contacts match. Otherwise, it should be safer to connect it to the PC sync port via an adapter - then using manual mode it should work without issues.
When buying an A-1, check for the mirror foam, and the shutter "squeak" issue. They could need maintenance.


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## Quasimodo (Oct 24, 2014)

LDS said:


> Because the A-1 was among the first cameras to be able to communicate (primitive) informations from/to the flash unit (IIRC flash ready, set sync speed and get the aperture set on the flash when using compatible units like the 199A) and thereby has more contacts than the single flash trigger one, beware what signals the ST-E3 could send to the camera if mounted in the hot shoe and contacts match. Otherwise, it should be safer to connect it to the PC sync port via an adapter - then using manual mode it should work without issues.
> When buying an A-1, check for the mirror foam, and the shutter "squeak" issue. They could need maintenance.



Thanks alot for your answer. If it proves to be a hassle, I will either get a dedicted flash, or simply use the camera without flash. I get it with a FD 35 F2.0 and a 100 F2.8. I will check for those things you mention.


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## Bernd FMC (Oct 24, 2014)

Hello...

there was not any Warning about using new Flash on old Camera´s, but some old Flashes could
be dangerous for new Body´s .

An A1 shoult work in Manual Mode and in EXT-M Mode from the 600RT´s - and also should work with
the ST-E3-RT - but Flash Ready, Auto X-Sync-Switch and setting of the Appature automatically will
not work - i assume.

Update "onthefly" - looks not so good:

Installed the ST-E3-RT on my T90 - The Camera switched to 90sec. X-Sync ( 250 original max ) - shows
the Flashready Symbol, but does not fire the Flash via Radiolink.

Also tested teh 600-EX-RT direct on the T90 - the Flash switched to TTL ! and it seems to work with
controlled Power from the T90  .

Ok, i´ve got an 300TL for the T90 - i am only playing - but i am wondered why the ST-E3-RT does not trigger
on the T90 ?

Greetings Bernd


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## Quasimodo (Oct 24, 2014)

Bernd FMC said:


> Hello...
> 
> there was not any Warning about using new Flash on old Camera´s, but some old Flashes could
> be dangerous for new Body´s .
> ...



Thank you Bernd. You give me faith. I guess that I will try to put on first the 600 on top of it and see if it works. I was a bit worried that something might happen that causes either of them to fail/or be broken. If it simply does not work, that is the least of worries 

Best, 

Gerhard


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## LDS (Oct 24, 2014)

Bernd FMC said:


> there was not any Warning about using new Flash on old Camera´s,



Just because less people are interested in it  Usually people are interested if they can use some of their old gear on a newer camera, and usally some kind of compatibility is provided to ease (and lure) people in upgrading.

Also, older camera have usually less sophisticated electronics (but they could be less protected also).

The T90 was the first TTL camera from Canon, and started to use the four pin flash interface still used - don't know how much the signalling is compatible with later cameras. It used A-TTL, not the E-TTL used now. Again, how much they are compatible at the signal level I do not know.

The A-1 uses an even older non-TTL interface, and has only two pins - it would be interesting to know if Canon when adding pins changed the whole interface or if they are in some ways still compatible.

Anway, I'd be careful not to brick the old camera electronics feeding the wrong signal on the wrong pins... after all the A-1 has no TTL, and all it can do is setting the aperture and sync speed - but it did the other way round, you set the aperture on the flash and it was sent to the camera, not viceversa (flashes then could usually use just a limited set of aperture values for auto operations).


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## Bernd FMC (Oct 24, 2014)

The 600RT switched into TTL - not E-TTL ( in Display ) while closed the Lens with a Lenscap the Flash
fired full power, Lens opened f2.8 the Flash fired low Power, the COULD be an sign that the old TTL 
works with the T90 - the A-Series Camera´s does not measure true the Lens, so the Sensor of the 600RT
should be used, like an Speedlite 199A  - sure there is no Garantie not to destroy something.

The Settings of Syncspeed and Aperture does not work propably - but an Hardwarefailure seems not to
be dangerous .

The Protocol of the Datatransmission could/will differ, the Hardwareassignments of the Pins seems to be the
same and/or not necessary.

I´ve got an Metz 32CT3 with SCA311 ( for T90 ) too, this Combo also worked with Powershot G2, 5DMIII and
certainly on my T90 ( not all Modes on all Camera´s )

In the Past i´ve used the Metz with the 5Pin Flashshoe on my AE-1 Program too - zero Problems, surly
no TTL  .

But - for sure - do it on your own Risk... i´ve done ist on my own Risk too.

The Radio Feature of the RT-Devices of Canon ist really nice, but using an A-1 with it is not 
autentical : .

I still like my T90 System - an awesome Camera of the Past.

The A-1 is also a Milestone of Canon .

Greetings Bernd


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## Quasimodo (Oct 24, 2014)

Bernd FMC said:


> The 600RT switched into TTL - not E-TTL ( in Display ) while closed the Lens with a Lenscap the Flash
> fired full power, Lens opened f2.8 the Flash fired low Power, the COULD be an sign that the old TTL
> works with the T90 - the A-Series Camera´s does not measure true the Lens, so the Sensor of the 600RT
> should be used, like an Speedlite 199A  - sure there is no Garantie not to destroy something.
> ...



Again, thank you (both for advice and risk. The guy selling this also have a 199A for sale, so I guess that I should spring for that as well, rather than risking one of the expensive 600s. I was hoping that the new flash system would work backwards, thus enbling me more possibilities to use this camera for studio work. At least, I assume that there are available cords, so at least I would not have to use this flash on camera.


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## Quasimodo (Oct 24, 2014)

LDS said:


> Bernd FMC said:
> 
> 
> > there was not any Warning about using new Flash on old Camera´s,
> ...



Thank you


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## dcm (Oct 24, 2014)

Still have my A-1 / 199A combo - they worked well together. Many years of useful service and still functioning.


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## old-pr-pix (Oct 24, 2014)

Playing around mixing old and new gear is always a risk. As mentioned, old A-1 has fewer pins in hot shoe -- I'd call it a three pin arrangement not counting the side rail which is the ground connection. The center pin is trigger to fire flash - that's pretty much been common for all generation flashes (only issue being too high a trigger voltage on some older 3rd party flashes). There are two pins either side of the center trigger pin. One pin is some type of ready signal to indicate flash is on and ready to fire. This would force the A-1 to go to sync. speed - unless a 199 flash was used with it's slow sync. speed switch turned on. In that case any shutter speed from sync. or slower could be used. The other pin was a signal from the flash to the camera indicating what aperture to stop down the lens to when the shutter was actuated. In the A-1 era this appears to have been an analog signal, perhaps a current loop. Hence, the flash really takes control of the camera. The sensor & electronics to detect sufficient illumination of the subject and cutoff the flash was all part of the flash back then. The flash commanded f-stop, sync. speed shutter and shut itself off when it saw enough light. Today it is very much the camera commanding the flash. 

Hence, the only pin that likely still has the same function on ST-E3 and A-1 is the center flash trigger pin. Like dcm, my old 199A still works great. I tape over the two pins either side of center, set the camera manually to sync. speed and the same aperture that is dialed in on the back of the 199A.


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## LDS (Oct 24, 2014)

You can use something like this:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/621573-REG/Interfit_STR115_STR115_Hot_Shoe_Adapter.html/prm/alsVwDtl

To isolate the 600EX/ST-E3 from the camera contacts (or use tape, the adapter is a somewhat safer because can't wear).

The 199A was a nice unit and powerful enough (GN 32. 100 ISO, 50mm), just the head moves only vertically, and in manual mode power can't be set. It uses battery holders which allows for quick changes of batteries (and keep spare ones together in your bag/pocket), something I miss in actual flash units.

If you wish to taste the feeling of an early 80s system and the unit works well, buy it, but it would be really useful for "quick" flash action with the A-1, otherwise your 600EX offers much more control.

You can find a lot of useful information about the A-1 and its accessories at http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/canon/fdresources/SLRs/a1/

You can find electronic copies of the manuals here: http://www.sandon.it/?q=node/55


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## Quasimodo (Oct 24, 2014)

dcm said:


> Still have my A-1 / 199A combo - they worked well together. Many years of useful service and still functioning.



Thank you. And now mine will serve me well in the times forthcoming I realise somethimes when reading post by people older than me, or haven gotten into this world before me, that I have missed something relevant by not having shot slr. I had an Olympus film camera back in the days, but a mere point and shoot. I will use this camera to learn more about photography


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## Quasimodo (Oct 24, 2014)

old-pr-pix said:


> Playing around mixing old and new gear is always a risk. As mentioned, old A-1 has fewer pins in hot shoe -- I'd call it a three pin arrangement not counting the side rail which is the ground connection. The center pin is trigger to fire flash - that's pretty much been common for all generation flashes (only issue being too high a trigger voltage on some older 3rd party flashes). There are two pins either side of the center trigger pin. One pin is some type of ready signal to indicate flash is on and ready to fire. This would force the A-1 to go to sync. speed - unless a 199 flash was used with it's slow sync. speed switch turned on. In that case any shutter speed from sync. or slower could be used. The other pin was a signal from the flash to the camera indicating what aperture to stop down the lens to when the shutter was actuated. In the A-1 era this appears to have been an analog signal, perhaps a current loop. Hence, the flash really takes control of the camera. The sensor & electronics to detect sufficient illumination of the subject and cutoff the flash was all part of the flash back then. The flash commanded f-stop, sync. speed shutter and shut itself off when it saw enough light. Today it is very much the camera commanding the flash.
> 
> Hence, the only pin that likely still has the same function on ST-E3 and A-1 is the center flash trigger pin. Like dcm, my old 199A still works great. I tape over the two pins either side of center, set the camera manually to sync. speed and the same aperture that is dialed in on the back of the 199A.


Thank you for your detailed information, and time to write this  Reading some of these replies underscores my lack of knowledge about technical issues and facts. That said in the opposite meaning of intimidating, but rather in a tone where I see that I have much to learn.


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## dgatwood (Oct 24, 2014)

LDS said:


> Just because less people are interested in it  Usually people are interested if they can use some of their old gear on a newer camera, and usally some kind of compatibility is provided to ease (and lure) people in upgrading.
> 
> Also, older camera have usually less sophisticated electronics (but they could be less protected also).
> 
> The T90 was the first TTL camera from Canon, and started to use the four pin flash interface still used - don't know how much the signalling is compatible with later cameras. It used A-TTL, not the E-TTL used now. Again, how much they are compatible at the signal level I do not know.



I checked several current-generation Canon flashes, and they're all advertised as supporting A-TTL, so I'm going to have to say fully, give or take. As best I can tell, the current flashes are backwards-compatible all the way back to the original TTL (which predates A-TTL).

And I'm pretty sure the two pins that the A-1 uses had the same function even back then as they do now, though I can't be absolutely certain whether the signaling voltages are identical. One of the top two pins on current flashes is a ready (input) pin, which tells the camera whether the flash is ready to fire or not, and the other is a quench (output) pin, which the camera grounds to tell the flash to cut power to the flash tube. This at least sounds like they're doing the same thing as in the older flash system.

One of the additional two pins is an I/O data pin for E-TTL, and the other turns on the focus assist light.

And the A-1 works at least as far forward as the 300TL, which is a 5-pin A-TTL flash, I think, so I'd be really surprised if there were a compatibility issue unless they did something silly like switch to 3.3V signaling and eliminate 5V tolerance. This is not to say that they'll fully support metering when used with such an old camera, of course.


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## Quasimodo (Oct 24, 2014)

LDS said:


> You can use something like this:
> 
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/621573-REG/Interfit_STR115_STR115_Hot_Shoe_Adapter.html/prm/alsVwDtl
> 
> ...



Thank you very much. I will read it all, and with pleasure. Much appreciate that you all have taken the time in a busy day to educate me and help me. Tomorrow morning I am driving with my eldest son (6years old) to pick up my new Canon A-1, with a motor drive, and a fd 35f2.0, fd24f2.8, fd100f2.8, and a 199A. I spoke to the gentleman (seems like a nice and honest man) tonight, and hearing about the extra stuff he has lying around, I am guessing that I will use more on this new path than I anticipated. Earlier today I bought Ilford HP5 Plus 400, and a Ilford XP2 Super 400 (both b&w). The vendor adviced me to go for Kodak TriX 400 once they had new stocks. 

Again, thanks a lot!


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## dcm (Oct 24, 2014)

Quasimodo said:


> dcm said:
> 
> 
> > Still have my A-1 / 199A combo - they worked well together. Many years of useful service and still functioning.
> ...



Shooting film with a good body/lens gives you a different perspective. You begin to appreciate manual modes more and take more time to prepare and think about it since you will be shooting fewer frames and can't preview each shot. You have to do that in your mind. I think my daughter is a better photographer after taking a university photography class for her art major a few years ago - they only shot B&W film and she used my equipment.

I got to shoot my kids from birth to college on film. Now I shoot my granddaughter with digital and re-shoot places I visited in the past with a film camera. I am amazed by what we can do with digital today and converting old family negatives and slides to digital adds to that appreciation. But I am probably a better photographer from my film experience.

Have fun!


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## Quasimodo (Oct 24, 2014)

dcm said:


> Quasimodo said:
> 
> 
> > dcm said:
> ...



I will, and hopefully.. If I get some decent shots in semi-blind mode, I will post them here


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## Bernd FMC (Oct 25, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> I think, so I'd be really surprised if there were a compatibility issue unless they did something silly like switch to 3.3V signaling and eliminate 5V tolerance. This is not to say that they'll fully support metering when used with such an old camera, of course.



+1

@ Quasimodo -> Have Fun with the new/old Gear !

( Also reloaded my T90 a few weeks ago - i really think about every shot - much more than with digital -
T90 - FD 24 1:2.8 - FD 50mm 1:1.8 - FD 70-210 1:4 - 2xTC Vivitar - 300TL - OC3 Cords - Metz 32CT3 with SCA311 ) 

Have a nice Weekend !

Bernd


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## Quasimodo (Nov 17, 2014)

A second question in the analoge realm if you have time 

First a disclaimer... I guess you can call it an existential crisis that I am undergoing as far as photography is concerned. I sold some gear to raise money for the 7D II to accompany my 1Dx, but at the twelfth hour I had a change of heart. My aquintance with the Canon A-1 has had a profund effect on me, and a realization of how little of the technical aspects of shooting pictures i know. 

Instead of buying the 7DII, I have now invested in a Mamiya RZ67 Pro II and stuff like scanner, lightmeter, lenses.. Hoping as I always do to be able to use gear from one world to another. While I did not dare to try the st-e3 on my Canon A-1 (after advice here), I am hoping that I will be able to use it to trigger my 600*s on the Mamiya. The camera was launched in 1995, and I know several who use PW to trigger it. Is there a reason why the st-e3 would not be able to do the same (I have not received the camera which is on the way)? 

Gerhard


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## Quasimodo (Nov 20, 2014)

To answer my own question. I went to a professional photostore (mainly for professionals) and we tried to find a solution, but alas, seems Canon will not allow it in the software. I ended up buying six PW plus X, and a Sekonic chip for my 758 Cine, and it works like a charm


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