# No 7D Mark II? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Feb 14, 2012)

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<strong>This is a first

</strong>I received a suggestion that Canon will not be making a sequel to the 7D. In other words, no 7D Mark II. The 60D replacement (70D?) will move back up to its previous position in the lineup. Does that mean the end of the 60D “super rebel” style camera as well?</p>
<p>I’d like to see a higher end rebel retain the scroll wheel. I also think the “Rebel” name alone may add to the sales count better than “60D”.</p>
<p>No timetable was given for an announcement.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## Tijn (Feb 14, 2012)

Would that bring the 70D pricing up to where the 7D is now (and considerably higher at introduction of course)?


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## pedro (Feb 14, 2012)

well it's getting intresting:
FF "7D-5D" 18 MP 51 k ISO merge? rock'n'roll, gentlemen 8)


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## te4o (Feb 14, 2012)

pedro said:


> well it's getting intresting:
> FF "7D-5D" 18 MP 51 k ISO merge? rock'n'roll, gentlemen 8)



22 MP please, don't forget the crowd out there, we want at least one up!


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## pakosouthpark (Feb 14, 2012)

some kind of camera revolution happening in canon
the 1Dx that just came out and 
people are waiting for 5Dmk3, a new 3D(?), 70D, 650D and a new C camera? what the next 6 months will bring to us?


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## GL (Feb 14, 2012)

Makes sense from marketing perspective at least.

70D - top of the line crop - serious amateur to enthusiast - $1500K +/- (all rounder, Rebel upgrader)
5Dx - 7D/5D merge - midmarket FF - serious amateur to pro - $3000K +/- (wedding/portrait/wedding video, serious amateur to pro wildlife/sport/landscape)
"3D/3C" - new segment - the so-called "5D-split" - high MP, video optimised FF (4K) - the video DSLR - pro - $4500K +/- (pro video/indie/Hollywood B-camera; landscape and studio pro)
1Dx - high-end pro - ultimate IQ/speed/ruggedness - pro - $6500K +/- (all-rounder pro, good for studio, video, weddings, portraits, landscapes, wildlife, sport; photojournalist bread-and-butter)

Scalable: 80D, 90D; 5Dx Mk II, III; 3C Mk II, III; 1Dx Mk II, III...

No direct correlation with what Nikon is doing, but more balanced all-round, and arguably a better camera for every price point/market segment. 7D was really an odd camera, still is.

Hopefully we'll see the 5Dx in March, 70D and 3D/C later in the year, in among all the digital-optimised new lenses.

Just my 0.02


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## GL (Feb 14, 2012)

Another thought - Canon could really pi** everyone off and release the 70D in March (the notorious safari cam), and leave the 5D split to Photokina... although with the D800 around, that would be marketing suicide.


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## briansquibb (Feb 14, 2012)

So we are back to the APS-H as being the possible upgrade then ....


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## Tijn (Feb 14, 2012)

If the 70D is becoming the new top-of-the-line crop, do you reckon it will inherit the 7D's autofocus?
I think that it'd otherwise be a gap in their market. Currently, also professionals use crop cameras in some situations - particularly those where extra lens reach is desired without it weighing or costing too much. One of those instances is sports. It wouldn't make sense to lose the AF.

It might be more fair to say that the 60D odd-ball 'lineup' (in between 50D and 70D 'pro crop' cameras) is ditched, and that a 70D will be a 7D follow-up... or something.


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## studio1972 (Feb 14, 2012)

Tijn said:


> Would that bring the 70D pricing up to where the 7D is now (and considerably higher at introduction of course)?



Probably similar to the old 50d/40d which was in-between the 7d and 60d. The 60d was a downgrade from the 50d in many ways.


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## lonelywhitelights (Feb 14, 2012)

te4o said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > well it's getting intresting:
> ...



boo @ 22MP 18MP is perfectly adequate in my opinion, I guess we'll just wait and see the results from the 1DX

I'm a little sad to see the end of the 7D line, 70D doesn't really have the same ring to it as being top of the crops, but if the 70D ends up with the same autofocus system from the 7D and around 10fps and better high ISO performance then who am I to argue


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## DzPhotography (Feb 14, 2012)

I'll cherish my 7D then, until the end of times...


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## wickidwombat (Feb 14, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> So we are back to the APS-H as being the possible upgrade then ....


dont tease me like that!


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## briansquibb (Feb 14, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > So we are back to the APS-H as being the possible upgrade then ....
> ...



A 5D bodysized sports body would be very nice

APS-H, native iso 12800, 1D4 AF, single card, 22mp, 8fps

APS-H might of course be the video sensor .....


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## Gcon (Feb 14, 2012)

I really think this is a good move. I've said it before http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,2969.msg62520.html#msg62520, and I'll say it again - Canon should never have made the 7D as good as it is functionally with a crop sensor. It's like putting a lawn-mower engine into a BMW convertible.

I should know as I own two 5DMarkII's and a 7D. I bought the 7D thinking it would be close to the 5D in image quality, or at least in the same ballpark. I was excited by its features and thought I could live with a small drop in IQ for the sake of all those other goodies. Unfortunately it's not even close. Makes sense though - the 5D Mark II has 2.56 times the surface area for the sensor, and sensor technology improves, but rarely by that amount in a year. The crop factor at 1.6x really does make a big difference.

So the current lineup is just freaking bizarre. In fact it's horrible. Here's why:

1. You have a fantastically featured awesome little camera with great autofocus, button layout, flash trigger capabilities, weather sealing, responsiveness...yadda yadda yadda.... but with a horrible sensor (by pro standards OK - compared to 5D Mark II) that make shots look very point-n-click like in the noise department, and even in the low light color rendition. That's the current 7D.

2. You have a camera with with pretty ordinary controls and features, poor environmental sealing, and one hell of an image sensor that carries it through sales time and time again (and pretty good video too I'm told). That's the 5D Mark II. It's so good in the IQ dept I bought two 

That lineup is just whack and they should really do a sensor swap. Canon will address this by putting crop sensors solely back into the XXD line with the 70D, and boosting the features of the 5DmarkIII so they meet or surpass the 7D - guaranteed. Well shots per second *might* be down a bit, and there will be no onboard flash but these are the only exceptions I can think of). If they did kill the 7D line and put most of it's great features into the next 5D, then look out for a 5Dx moniker.

This is not a "hater's gonna hate". This is just telling it brutally as it is. I really wanted to love the 7D. I actually feel pretty cheated as I read the DPReview review on the 7D before buying and nothing gave me the indication that it was as bad as it is compared to the 5D2 image quality. Still I've learned my lesson and will never go back to any crop sensor - it's full frame or medium format from here on in. A Lightroom crop and sharpen will probably get me just as good a results as the sensor "crop factor" of the 7D, if I don't have a lens long enough for what I'm shooting. If your 7D ego has just been bruised then I suggest you get yourself a full frame camera and start pixel peeping and see the "full frame light" my friend - especially at ISO 400 and above, but it's still readily apparent at ISO100.

I welcome this news. Bravo Canon. Now just get the 5Dx right! (edit:fixed typos)


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## Gcon (Feb 14, 2012)

GL said:


> Makes sense from marketing perspective at least.
> 
> 70D - top of the line crop - serious amateur to enthusiast - $1500K +/- (all rounder, Rebel upgrader)
> 5Dx - 7D/5D merge - midmarket FF - serious amateur to pro - $3000K +/- (wedding/portrait/wedding video, serious amateur to pro wildlife/sport/landscape)
> ...



I think you're right on the money! Even if that money is only 0.02


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## smirkypants (Feb 14, 2012)

I will probably get dinged hard for this, but if there is no pro level crop sensor camera coming out in the next year, I will almost certainly get a Nikon 800D when it comes out. You can shoot a 1.5 crop on that at 16MP at 6fps gripped. Not too shabby.

The 7D came out as a counter to the 300D and has been a huge success. I can't see Canon just surrendering this market to Nikon. It just doesn't make any sense. Why would they do that?


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## briansquibb (Feb 14, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> The 7D came out as a counter to the 300D and has been a huge success. I can't see Canon just surrendering this market to Nikon. It just doesn't make any sense. Why would they do that?



...... because they have a replacement in the wings ..... ????


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## wickidwombat (Feb 14, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> I will probably get dinged hard for this, but if there is no pro level crop sensor camera coming out in the next year, I will almost certainly get a Nikon 800D when it comes out. You can shoot a 1.5 crop on that at 16MP at 6fps gripped. Not too shabby.
> 
> The 7D came out as a counter to the 300D and has been a huge success. I can't see Canon just surrendering this market to Nikon. It just doesn't make any sense. Why would they do that?



I am sure the 70D will be the real replacement i have thought for a while the crop sensor camera range was too crowded they needed to rationalise it
who really cares what it is called as long as it can step up to the plate and perform


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## GL (Feb 14, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> It just doesn't make any sense. Why would they do that?



That would be the 70D...

The 7D is a real oddity - a decidedly "pro" body with glaringly non-pro features (sensor, pop-up flash anyone?). Put a 22MP new-gen FF sensor in a 7D body, add the new 1Dx-derived AF tech, and you have the 5Dx. Every 7D/5D2 owner will buy one, probably two. Pump up the 60D with some 7D tech and bring back the xxD line to it's rightful place at the top of the APS-C heap. Wham-bam, Canon sells a gazillion cameras and Nikon fanboys gloat about their 36MP that no-one really wanted anyway


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## smirkypants (Feb 14, 2012)

But there are a lot of people... a LOT of people... who want a pro-quality body with a cropped sensor and are willing to pay for it. I'd love 10fps, an extremely rugged build, a 1Dx quality AF system and metering. 

To get that we're talking a $3000-4000 ballpark. I would pay it and so would a lot of sport and bird shooters. That's not something you will see in a 70D.


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## D.Sim (Feb 14, 2012)

studio1972 said:


> Tijn said:
> 
> 
> > Would that bring the 70D pricing up to where the 7D is now (and considerably higher at introduction of course)?
> ...



Indeed... the 7D was always the more spiritual successor of the 50D... Would be nice to see the return of the two digit D to the top of Canon's crop lineup though...


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## nicku (Feb 14, 2012)

As I said before... 7D was and still is one of the best sellers that canon ever had. WHY they discontinue a very, very well selling body???

OK they will '' rise in class '' with the 70D; same performance like 7D and many improvements..... BUT what about the Nikon D7000 VS 60D!!! do you really think Canon will allow Nikon to be alone in a DSLR category??? especially when we talk about a $1000 camera model.

PS. don't mention that the new Nikon D400 is around the corner.


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## wickidwombat (Feb 14, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> But there are a lot of people... a LOT of people... who want a pro-quality body with a cropped sensor and are willing to pay for it. I'd love 10fps, an extremely rugged build, a 1Dx quality AF system and metering.
> 
> To get that we're talking a $3000-4000 ballpark. I would pay it and so would a lot of sport and bird shooters. That's not something you will see in a 70D.


it might be but i would think more like 2k, rugged build would be similar to existing 7D i guess
if they use the same detuned 61pt sensor from the 1dx they save alot by production scale, can you imagine the point spread on a crop sensor with that beast. I wouldn't right them off just yet i think whatever the crop body they do come out with will be class leading. i just hope the IQ is a significant step up from the 7D sensor. still i am more interested in any new APS-H body than a king of the crops. I doubt canon will leave out the people craving a tough crop. like i said who cares what they call it right?


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## KeithR (Feb 14, 2012)

Well now...

You say this:


Gcon said:


> I should know as I own two 5DMarkII's and a 7D.


Then you say this:


> Unfortunately it's not even close.


Which really suggests that you _don't_ know: my 7D will do _anything_, IQ-wise, that your 5D Mk II will do, and plenty more besides.


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## Birdshooter (Feb 14, 2012)

If they would make the 5Dx a:

30.8 MP FF (giving you a 12 MP crop)
8 fps
decent ISO & DR
It will still have a DLA of > F8, you could still shoot the 300 1:2.8 + 2x TC + 1 stopped down, without loosing quality, unlike now with the 7D. 
Both 5D owners as well as 7D owner will be very happy. 

The 7D resolution is to big for its sensor. If they would have made it 13.5 MPm it would have been the best. Better ISO, better IQ and more DLA.


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## ogrizzo (Feb 14, 2012)

Gcon said:


> If your 7D ego has just been bruised then I suggest you get yourself a full frame camera and start pixel peeping and see the "full frame light" my friend


 
*Excuse me?* I should stop taking pictures and start pixel peeping to justify the weight and the cost of full frame?

You don't like your 7D, fine. I shooted with a 5DII, I'd never buy one, and even if I had unlimited money, I'd usually prefer to lug around a 7D+17-55+Tokina 11-16 than a 1DX+24-70 Mk II+16-35. (Not being a dentist, I'd rather save the money to replace my car when it dies).

Next time you see a press conference on TV, look at the cameras behind Canon lenses: they'll be mostly X0D, a bunch of 7D and some 1D (if any).


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## KeithR (Feb 14, 2012)

Birdshooter said:


> you could still shoot the 300 1:2.8 + 2x TC + 1 stopped down, without loosing quality, unlike now with the 7D.



"Losing quality"? Rubbish! My 7D is _fantastic_ in those circumstances.



> The 7D resolution is too big for its sensor. If they would have made it 13.5 MP it would have been the best. Better ISO, better IQ and more DLA.



How many more times for this tripe? 

_More pixels *does not* mean worse IQ._


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## D.Sim (Feb 14, 2012)

nicku said:


> As I said before... 7D was and still is one of the best sellers that canon ever had. WHY they discontinue a very, very well selling body???
> 
> OK they will '' rise in class '' with the 70D; same performance like 7D and many improvements..... BUT what about the Nikon D7000 VS 60D!!! do you really think Canon will allow Nikon to be alone in a DSLR category??? especially when we talk about a $1000 camera model.
> 
> PS. don't mention that the new Nikon D400 is around the corner.



Because the true succession was 40D -> 50D -> 7D

The 60D is closer to a "slightly improved" 600D. Is Canon allowing Nikon to be alone? Hardly.


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## KeithR (Feb 14, 2012)

ogrizzo said:


> *Excuse me?* I should stop taking pictures and start pixel peeping to justify the weight and the cost of full frame?


Ignore him - another bad workman, blaming his tools.

It always creases me up when FF zealots like him say things like that _as if we haven't tested these cameras, and the files that come off them, to the nth degree_.

And the fact that he's suggesting pixel peeping (as opposed to IQ comparison at the image level, _the only place where it matters_) tells you everything you need to know about his understanding.


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## lol (Feb 14, 2012)

I don't care if the next flagship APS-C body is called 70D or 7D2, as long as it is built upon the current 7D and not the 60D. Assuming they go this route, I think there is more marketing value in keeping the 7D name than reverting to 70D though.

I don't think they can afford to revert to the 9 point AF system though regardless, unless the 5D3 offers wide area f/8 AF, which isn't possible even on any 1D series body. The 7D seems to be massively popular, and it would be suicide not to provide a functional successor for it.

Comparing against the 5D2 is kinda pointless though. The 5D2 is basically a 50D with an overgrown sensor. It feels like a toy compared to the 7D. So the 5D3 would at a minimum need to match the 7D build if it is going to replace a 7D in any way.


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## GL (Feb 14, 2012)

Without fanning the flames of the "7D vs 5D2" debate going on here, I must say, as a wedding/portrait pro that uses a 5D2 as my main body with the 7D as second body/backup, and who uses both for professional video films, you simply can't compare the IQ of the 7D with what the 5D2 can do at any ISO over 400. 

Nevermind the noise (which is fairly well controlled on the 7D at up to ISO 800/1000), the AWB and skin tones of the 5D2 just hit the spot every time, whereas (especially for video) we end up white balance shifting the 7D every single time.

Now if I were a bird/sport shooter that would be different, and when I just need the reach with decent IQ, I go to the 7D first. But to say the 7D can match the 5D2 - it simply can't - not for the work I do anyway. 

Now 5D2 focus, shutter lag, shutter noise, these are other issue altogether... the 7D is a real upgrade in each of these, which is why a FF 5D/7D merge makes so much sense!


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## DzPhotography (Feb 14, 2012)

I just wanna state my humble opinion and not flame anyone, just to be clear from the start.

Altho' I love my 7D, it doesn't come close to IQ and ISO performance of the 5DMkII (or any other FF). 

A FF with approx. the same MP count as an APS-C will always, I repeat always deliver better pics, because the pixel density is much less and therefore will not have as much overflow as the APS-C in the higher ISO settings.

Just go out and try to shoot a concert without flash with both a 5DMkII and a 7D (and the same lenses ofcourse) at ISO's of 1600-3200 and you'll understand what I'm talking about


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## JR (Feb 14, 2012)

While I am not in the market for a 7DmkII myself, I find this rumor a bit odd indeed. With the APS-H sensor gone from the line-up, I dont see how Canon can leave the crop sensor side of the market unaddressed with simply a replacement of the 60D?!?!? Nikon is in a bit of a different situation because they can have their FF body crop such that we have more reach, but Canon does not have this to my knowledge. I even heard of a D400 in the way from Nikon...

We are surely missing the full picture here no? There is a still market for pro-level APS-C, does it?

Jacques


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## nicku (Feb 14, 2012)

JR said:


> We are surely missing the full picture here no? There is a still market for pro-level APS-C, does it?
> 
> Jacques



A very big one...

If 7D had 1 stop better ISO quality at ISO 100 and 200 a had chose 7D. but IQ is more important than every other think that a Canon bodies can have.


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## Maui5150 (Feb 14, 2012)

I think Canon is consolidating their lines slightly which makes sense.

When you look at the previous landscape of the lines (with latest MK #s eliminated)

1Ds 
1DMK
5DMK
7D
60D
T3i

There is just a huge overlap, especially in the Crop body. Yes, the 7D was the king of the APS-C, but the total gap between 7D - 60D - and T3i in terms of features, performance, etc was not that great and a $1000 difference... A lot of it came down to the quality of the body as the biggest differences, along with AF and FPS

So what I see

1Dx (and possibly a 1DsX) as the Pro body line. $6500 Body

5DMKIII - The Mid Level Pro - Solid all around, $3000 Body - Really becomes a economic win, really a merging of the 5DMKII and 7D lines, so instead of paying $4200 for a 7D and 5D MKII, you save $800 - $1000 and have it all in one body. Yes, you lose the crop reach, but this will be a SOLID all around camera

2D/3D/4D - This will be the high MP beast. It is coming, and my guess is Canon is tweaking the hell out of it... In the corporate minds, better to be a few months slower and have a better body for several years, than rush and be mediocre.

70D - Seriously Upgraded line. Top of the Crop Prosumer Body. Better construction. Weather Sealing, this becomes the $1500 - $1700 crop body, probably 18MP still, maybe up to 21MP, Faster FPS, and likely the same AF. 

Rebel T4i - Top Consumer Body. Same overall sensor as the 70D, great video, less bells and whistles, plastic body, slower FPS, less ISO and likely not as good AF.

The nature of the shift is really 6 lines into 4 lines, or 5 lines into 4 depending on how you look at the 1Ds/1DMK line. 

This is not a bad thing. I think what this means is an upgrade to the xxD line, and by focusing these bodies a little more, it takes some of the confusion away especially with the T3i / 60D / 7D which are 3 fairly close bodies within $800 - $900 of each other, which then becomes 2 Bodies with in the same range. 

One less body line allows Canon to focus on better improvements for their next generation as well as improve their lenses with more resources.


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## Dbleznak (Feb 14, 2012)

The only thing I want is the best pro body for my 17-55 2.8 IS. Right now, its still the 7D, right?


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## candyman (Feb 14, 2012)

Dbleznak said:


> The only thing I want is the best pro body for my 17-55 2.8 IS. Right now, its still the 7D, right?




The difference in IQ between 600D, 60D en 7D is not big. Same sensor. Maybe very small difference in terms of ISO noise though I am not sure.


A new camera with new APS-C sensor will for sure give better IQ with your 17-55 2.8.
Not likely this lens wil be updated soon


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## BXL (Feb 14, 2012)

D.Sim said:


> Because the true succession was 40D -> 50D -> 7D
> 
> The 60D is closer to a "slightly improved" 600D. Is Canon allowing Nikon to be alone? Hardly.


I don't agree... true, the 60D lost some minor features of the 50D but the gap between those two cameras is very small compared to the 7D. 

The xxD line has 9 cross-type AF points, compared to the 7D with it's 19 cross-type AF points. So, if a 70D would be the successor of the 7D, what type of AF will it get? An improved version of the 40/50/60D or an improved version of the 19 cross-type AF of the 7D? 

And if this would be the case and the 70D would replace both 60D and 7D, which means also that the 70D will be priced similar to the 7D (~1500 US$), than there is a hugh gab between the 60D/7D successor and the xxx/rebel product line. I don't believe that the xxx/rebel line (1 cross-type AF point) will receive the AF of the xxD product line and I don't believe that canon will leave such a gab in its product portfolio.

So if those rumors are true, then something has to fill the gap. And don't forget, the rebel name is only used in the US/Canada. In other markets the rebel name is unknown.


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## DzPhotography (Feb 14, 2012)

candyman said:


> Dbleznak said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing I want is the best pro body for my 17-55 2.8 IS. Right now, its still the 7D, right?
> ...


but right now, as Dbleznak asked, it's still the 7D... :


----------



## AprilForever (Feb 14, 2012)

I want an APS-C 7D MK II. I don't want it called different names, nor do I want it's sensor size meddled with.

This is a very serious and emotional thing for me and many 7D users.


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## A.W.Gonya (Feb 14, 2012)

I have a 20D, a 50D and now a 7D, if anyone was a XXD owner before moving to the 7D you know what it really is. 

If the next 7D becomes the 70D I hope it retains the construction and AF of the current 7D.


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## maxxevv (Feb 14, 2012)

Just a thought ... what if the 7D successor was an APS-H camera that they somehow made it compatible with EF-S lenses ?  

And they grafted the AF from the 1Div, with some '7D-ish' wrappings' rather than offering the latest and greatest from the 1Dx? It would create an awesome camera, with a clear upgrade path for the APS-C users as well a clear market segment ? 

It might be so rather than completely killing off the 7D since it has been such a great seller. 

Think about it : 

- APS-H with 20+/- MP (possibly recycle the 1D-IV sensor)
- EF-S lens compatible ( Some modification to the standard APS-H sized mirror could possibly allow that ) 
- 7-8fps
- ISO up to 12800 
- 1D-IV AF with additional 7D implementions (zoning ??), but simplified somewhat compared to 1D-IV
- No f/8 AF points
- Carrying all the bells and whistles of the 7D
- Separate grip
- Single Card
- Weather sealed
- $3200-$3800 

I think it would sell in heaps ! 8) 

Possible ???


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## candyman (Feb 14, 2012)

DzPhotography said:


> candyman said:
> 
> 
> > Dbleznak said:
> ...




I would say so. 
DxOMark does not have a comparison of the Canon 17-55 2.8 with a Canon 60D or 600D
It only tested with the 7D (and older APS-C Canon camera's)
Here is the link: http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Lenses/Camera-Lens-Database/Canon/EF-S-17-55-f-2.8-IS-USM/(camera)/619/(cameraname)/CANON-EOS-7D


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## AvTvM (Feb 14, 2012)

To me this rumor is not credible at all.

Canon has every reason to follow up on the enormously successful 7D with another top-level APS-C camera. 

There are so many enthusiasts who own or are willing to buy "the good" EF-S lenses (17-55, 15-85, 10-22, 60 Macro). Majority of them are not willing/financially able to step up to big $ fullframe. The 5D II successor(s) will most likely be more expensive than the 5D II launch - probably around 3k $ for the body. Plus immediate major upgrade cost for expensive, FF-capable wide-angle lenses ... 24-70 II, 16-35 II, 24 II, 14 II, 35/1.4 or the new 24/2.8, 28/2.8. 

At the same time anybody who has used a 7D for a while will most likely not want to step down to the consumer-style bodies 60D or rebels with poor AF. 

From my perspective it would make most sense to continue with the 2-tiered rebel series with a cheap end (currently 1100D) and a mid-level offering (currently 600D) plus a top-tier 7D II and discontinue the former xxD line altogether. 

I will upgrade to a 7D II if it can fully match an upcoming Nikon D400. In terms of sensor/IQ, electronics, performance/responsiveness, and especially AF ... most likely that would mean the 7D II should "inherit" the current 1D IV AF system (45 pt). In addition I would like it to get a tilt-swivel display (like the 60D). If they offer such a camera at $ 1800 launch price it will sell extremely well again and will leave hardly ny room or need for a 70D.


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## adebrophy (Feb 14, 2012)

I'm one of those in line for a 7Dmk 2 so initially a bit put out by this rumour. I have a 40D but want to go up a level on AF and build. Having had the later XXD series models made more consumery, it was clear that as a crop user with money invested in EF-S the 7D was the way forward being offered buy Canon to users like me.

However, I'd agree that if a 70D reverses the downgrade of the XXD line then I'd probably be perfectly happy with it if it delivered like the 7D. 

BUT. 

My worry is that this could be a move to split the users more cleanly between EF-S consumer users on the one hand - who get lower featured, weaker constructed bodies and people going FF who buy L glass. 

From a revenue/marketing perspective this could make a lot of sense for Canon, who probably find users like me frustrating. Today I have a mid-tier body, and use this with a mix of EF-S, EF and the one cherished L lens I could afford. The biggest reason for not going FF is my Sigma 10-22, which I love and don't need/want to replace just because I have a new body. With a 7D line I can forever hedge my bets on lenses even as I get more demanding of my body. Now to build on the personal example, if Canon encourage a whole segment of users like this then they risk undermining the market for the 5D. Maybe that's the biggest problem presented by the 7D and the biggest reason to lose it. 

Flaw in this argument is all the shooters who do need the crop for pro reasons. Guess they need to be catered for...


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## BXL (Feb 14, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> From my perspective it would make most sense to continue with the 2-tiered rebel series with a cheap end (currently 1100D) and a mid-level offering (currently 600D) plus a top-tier 7D II and discontinue the former xxD line altogether.


I am just an amateur photographer with some other hobbies as well... the 7D (or an more expensive upgrade) lies not within my budget, however I want a better AF-system than that of xxxD/rebel line. The xxD line is at the moment the next logical (and financial) upgrade for many people who own a xxxD/rebel and I don't see a reason why canon should drop this camera line/price range. I like the 60D and most likely will get it or its successor this autumn.


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## docsmith (Feb 14, 2012)

If true, I hope the 70D is essentially the 7DII. I am less concerned about the name than the performance. I currently own the 7D and have very little interest to go FF as I love the reach with my 100-400L. But I do want some improvements in ISO, DR and color performance. Package that into a weather sealed, metal body with similar to improved AF and you can call it whatever you would like, I'll buy it.

To quickly judge this rumor, it does make some sense. The xxD and xxxD is a jumbled mess and moving the xxD to take the place of the 7D would help clear that up. Also, Canon likes to differentiate things in odd ways, sometimes symbolically (no "L" EFS lenses). It would not completely surprise me if they wanted the next generation of xD bodies to be exclusively FF.

That said, I hope to keep the 7D line as the top end, semi-pro APS-C body.


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## DJL329 (Feb 14, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> I will probably get dinged hard for this, but if there is no pro level crop sensor camera coming out in the next year, I will almost certainly get a Nikon 800D when it comes out. You can shoot a 1.5 crop on that at 16MP at 6fps gripped. Not too shabby.
> 
> The 7D came out as a counter to the 300D and has been a huge success. I can't see Canon just surrendering this market to Nikon. It just doesn't make any sense. Why would they do that?



And what if the "5DX" has 61pt AF and 6.9fps, as the rumors suggest?


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## liberace (Feb 14, 2012)

GL said:


> Now 5D2 focus, shutter lag, shutter noise, these are other issue altogether... the 7D is a real upgrade in each of these, which is why a FF 5D/7D merge makes so much sense!



I can't say I really understand this at all. Why does the 7D line need to be deleted in order to improve the next 5D? Surely it would make more sense to just... improve the next 5D. I don't see how certain features in the 7D line precludes them from being in any future 5D. Most of these features are simply because the camera is newer.


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## unfocused (Feb 14, 2012)

While I fully understand that naming conventions are arbitrary (doesn't really matter what the camera is called, as long as it has the features), this doesn't make sense for at least two simple reasons: 

1) Companies don't usually re-brand their higher end products with the name of a lower-end product.

2) The XX-D naming convention has the practical problem of running out of numbers: it gets you through 90D, but after that, then what? Nikon made this mistake with its naming convention. Canon has avoided it with its "Mark X" naming convention. It's a small thing, but I don't see Canon dropping the 7D Mk X convention for a straight numerical system that requires them to re-brand the model again in a few years. 

I do agree that there has never been enough separation between the 60D and the Rebel line, but that's an argument for dropping the XXD line, not the XD line. 

I'm also a little amused by the suggestion that adding more autofocus points to the 5D would make the 7D unnecessary. Seems to me to just be a fantasy of the full-frame fetishists who can't accept that some of us actually prefer our 7Ds. 

It appears to me that with the new 5D Canon is going to "fix" the one thing users didn't like – autofocus – and then play around the margins with minor improvements to ISO, noise, dynamic range, etc.

I expect that for the 7D, Canon will concentrate on the things that 7D users would like to see improved – ISO, noise and dynamic range – and then play around the margins on autofocus improvements.


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## awinphoto (Feb 14, 2012)

I think there is no immediate need for a mark II right now and it is still sitting pretty compared to competition, so unless there is a need or they find themselves behind the gun to make a new one, they could probably hold fire. Just because they can doesn't mean they should pump out a new one, especially in such a volatile economy. I think they should pump out a 70D or whatever the heck they want to call it and let that run, maybe have a few FPS slower than the 7D, maybe the 9 AF, maybe 13 or 19 AF... Maybe the 19 AF points but no zones, just all or 1 point... stuff like that so there is differentiation but not as much before so it keeps it somewhat relevant and then when the time comes, then upgrade it.


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## Birdshooter (Feb 14, 2012)

DJL329 said:


> And what if the "5DX" has 61pt AF and 6.9fps, as the rumors suggest?



It would mean a drop of 10 MP as a 22MP FF is 8.5 MP cropped.

What concerns me more is if the 7D line will be adopted by the xxD line again, what will happen to the micro adjustment? The only body in the xxD that had it was the 50D, to be dropped again with the 60D.


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## liberace (Feb 14, 2012)

I also think that the floods/earth quake has played its part in the lack of xxD / xxxD line differences. The higher end cameras are now outside of Canon's historical upgrade timeframes, which has allowed the lower end cameras to slowly suffer congestion. The consumer market upgrades more frequenty, slowly taking up features higher models previously had, only there haven't been any higher models. This has meant that frequently refreshed models have no room to improve, causing their feature overlap to increase, and differences to decrease.


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## DzPhotography (Feb 14, 2012)

candyman said:


> DzPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > candyman said:
> ...


To my knowledge, 60D and 600D have the same sensor as the 7D, but only one Digic-CPU and not so good AF


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## awinphoto (Feb 14, 2012)

Birdshooter said:


> DJL329 said:
> 
> 
> > And what if the "5DX" has 61pt AF and 6.9fps, as the rumors suggest?
> ...



I am failing to see the panic about the 7D line if the 5d2 line comes out higher spec'd to the 7d? It would likely be over $1000 difference in price, if not more given the 7D current price point... The 5d is supposed to be higher spec than the 7D... why on earth would 7D owners in their right mind jump down to the 5D2 for any other reason than the full frame sensor? Really? Seriously? The 5d3 needs to be higher spec in order keep canon shooters evolving upwards through the canon line. This is why I said the 7D doesn't need an upgrade per se... it debuted as the king of the APS-C line above nikons D300(s) and sony and recently had stiff competition from sony, but really, the 7D still holds well. Plus, for some shooters, they wouldn't buy the 5d3 anyways because of price restrictions and other issues and 5d3 target audience may not be willing to go to an APS-C sensor, so the line is still in the sand... I know we are all prisoners of the moment, but stop fretting over nothing. And oh yeah... the king of the line will still get the extra features so dont fret about the micro adjust... it will still be there.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Feb 14, 2012)

BXL said:


> D.Sim said:
> 
> 
> > Because the true succession was 40D -> 50D -> 7D
> ...



Ugggg, reading this, if its true and this is the plan, it does make it very hard on emerging pros without big pockets. The 7D line commanded at least a bit of respect, so its really hard to not see it as a downgrade to move to a XXd from a Xd. Plus,at least given the old price structure - the 7d filled a niche in both capabilities and price (fitting nicely between the 5D and the 50/60D. 

If this is true then we'll have a huge gap -

$1500 70D
and oh, if you want anything better:
$3000 5dmkiii

I guess the only real hope for those in my shoes is that it becomes a buyers market once the 5dmkiii is out on 5dmkii's (which mkii users probably don't want to hear).

I am truly hoping that canon doesn't force the issue like that and leave such a big gap in price and quality. There's gotta be room for a 1.6 crop semi-pro body, something that can have its price point land at $1900-2300????

a merged line, 60D/7D falling in at $1500??? I'm just having a hard time seeing that as being an actual upgrade on the 7D. If your on the 60D, then yes a 70D would be a nice thing to look forward too. But damn you canon, thanks for forcing my hand - if there's no viable upgrade to the 7D in the 1.6 crop world - its timeto go FF and incur all the other costs of doing that (replacing my 10-22 with a 16-35, then adding something in the 300mm range, while putting filter upgrades on hold due to the new 82mm filter thread size needed for the newer L series lenses......)

Its a move i need to make anyways, but damn you canon if this rumor is true cause that really forces my hand...

http://chuckalaimo.com/


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## well_dunno (Feb 14, 2012)

I think they might remerge 60D and 7D into one line, may that be 7D mk2 or 70D. Whatever it is, it would be better than 7D I imagine... Also, probably XXXD line would get better specs if this happens.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Feb 14, 2012)

docsmith said:


> It would not completely surprise me if they wanted the next generation of xD bodies to be exclusively FF.



what I don't get then is the 1d mkIV? If anything in the xD series is streamlined into FF, then how does this model fit with it's 1.3 crop? 

I would gladly buy a 7D mkii with a 1.3 crop factor!

http://chuckalaimo.com/


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## awinphoto (Feb 14, 2012)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> docsmith said:
> 
> 
> > It would not completely surprise me if they wanted the next generation of xD bodies to be exclusively FF.
> ...



If they would have wanted the xd series to all be full frame, they would have thought of this before naming the 7D what they did or the 1d series... xd "pro", xxd "semi-pro", xxxd "amateur"


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## unfocused (Feb 14, 2012)

Chuck Alaimo you make good points. 

If the 5DIII really does come in at or near $3,000 (which I think it probably will), that just gives Canon much more room to play in the enthusiast-semiprofessional-professional APS-C market. Possibly a 70D, 7DII *and* a 7DX?

Awinphoto, I agree that there is no urgency for a 7DII. I'd rather see a major leap forward instead of incremental changes and if I have to wait a bit for that, that's fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with the 7D as it stands. I do think, however, that it is unlikely they'll want to let Photokina pass by without a major body announcement and if the 5DIII gets announced within the next month, the next logical choice is the 7D. 

It does seem like a lot of people want a full frame body for the price of an APS-C. I wonder if they expect Canon to throw in a free miniature unicorn as well. I suspect many of those who think APS-C is inferior will change their tune if the entry-level full frame goes to $3,000.


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## DzPhotography (Feb 14, 2012)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> docsmith said:
> 
> 
> > It would not completely surprise me if they wanted the next generation of xD bodies to be exclusively FF.
> ...


The 1D MkIV was a compromise to achieve the high fps, which were not possible then in FF


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## JonJT (Feb 14, 2012)

This forum has a serious problem conflating the needs and wants of crop shooters and FF shooters. 

The 7D is not a stop-gap camera for those who cannot afford a FF in the interim (at least, not in terms of design and market placement). Some people need and want an APS-C and have no intention to move up to a FF, for whatever reason. Everyone needs to respect their desires, especially Canon.

Pixel peeping is not a useful way to compare the image quality of two different cameras. You MUST take intended viewing enlargement and distance into account. Otherwise, any comparison is meaningless. Having said that, though, I do believe Canon's current APS-C sensor is indeed worse than their FF counterpart and, certainly worse than Nikon's offerings. But, that is not necessarily something that all shooters cannot tolerate.

Canon would be absolutely negligent and positively moronic not to follow up the 7D with a superior offering. They need to provide Canon shooters with something that has, at least, comparable build quality, a comparable feature set, improved AF performance and a better sensor. Canon would be commuting APS-C suicide if they didn't. I don't care what it is called, so long as they make the damn camera. 

Therefore, I will remain ambivalent about this rumor, if only because its implications have no effect upon the future of Canon's "King of the Crops" offering. Let me know when either, Canonrumors.com has a credible source for a spec list for the 7Ds spiritual successor or, has a credible source that says that Canon will no longer occupy the $1600-$2000 crop body market. I HIGHLY doubt the latter will come to fruition. But, if it does, I'll either switch to Nikon, buy a 7D and just be content, or just commit Seppuku and call it a day.


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## awinphoto (Feb 14, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Chuck Alaimo you make good points.
> 
> If the 5DIII really does come in at or near $3,000 (which I think it probably will), that just gives Canon much more room to play in the enthusiast-semiprofessional-professional APS-C market. Possibly a 70D, 7DII *and* a 7DX?
> 
> ...



well shoot at that price point they could add a programmable tv remote and a coffee maker into the next camera, haha. I think with the anticipation and hype of the new 5d3 and the implications of the new Full Frame, that coupled with the 1dx, could carry Canon throughout the calendar year as far as sales and media hype. I feel much like the 7d original was, it's going to be more market driven than out of life cycle. If the market demands it and if there's stiff competition against the 7d, then you could see canon come out with a new Juggernaut of a camera, but have a feeling it will be early next year, but i could be wrong.


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## Maui5150 (Feb 14, 2012)

liberace said:


> GL said:
> 
> 
> > Now 5D2 focus, shutter lag, shutter noise, these are other issue altogether... the 7D is a real upgrade in each of these, which is why a FF 5D/7D merge makes so much sense!
> ...



I see it as this... To make improvements, really solid improvements to the 7D, it likely should push it closer to the 2000 - 2200 range... Even as so, with the sensor side being so close, and if the next 5D does get higher FPS and AF, then it becomes the question of is it worth Canon having a $3K FF and a $2K or so crop that are pretty much identical other then one is crop and one is FF...

At the same time below it you have an $800 or so xxxD series Mid Consumer level camera and I imagine the 70D become more of a $1200 body and gets an upgrade. 

And really... while the 10-22 is a great lens, the 17-40 is pretty much a swap both in price and maybe a slight step down in IQ, but not by much. 

It costs money to produce and manufacture individual lines of lenses, especially if there is a smaller market. Makes a lot of sense to me for Canon to promote Pro bodies with Pro lenses the L series, have general purpose mid level EF lenses, and then have some more specific EF-S lenses to fill out the crop line. 

I really don't think you will see Pro Level EF-S lenses, and while there are a few good ones out there, makes more sense to produce lenses someone can grow into and continue than to have to sell off when you upgrade.


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## JonJT (Feb 14, 2012)

Maui5150 said:


> liberace said:
> 
> 
> > GL said:
> ...



You are assuming that everyone who shoots a Canon DSLR intends to move up to FF at some point. That is not necessarily true. I wish Canon knew this. I'd LOVE LOVE LOVE to have a 17-55 with L build quality and weather sealing.

Although, perhaps Canon doesn't care. Maybe they don't want to turn the APS-C standard into a fully featured system with every equivalent option, except sensor size.


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## darrellrhodesmiller (Feb 14, 2012)

i love/hate my 7D.. (it really is a great camera)

but i really dont see how they can maintain both the 60D line and the 7D line.. it just doesnt make much sense. i do like the crop factor.. but there is no reason to have two brands so close together in terms of performance and price.


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## awinphoto (Feb 14, 2012)

Maui5150 said:


> I see it as this... To make improvements, really solid improvements to the 7D, it likely should push it closer to the 2000 - 2200 range... Even as so, with the sensor side being so close, and if the next 5D does get higher FPS and AF, then it becomes the question of is it worth Canon having a $3K FF and a $2K or so crop that are pretty much identical other then one is crop and one is FF...



Nikon has been doing this with the D300s and the D700 with no hitches... minor differences in AF, speed, etc but one was FF and the other crop. The D300 is the exact reason that spurred the 7D... Having one as crop, one a full frame, with the 5d being as good if not slightly better to justify the premium in price and you're good to go. 



Maui5150 said:


> And really... while the 10-22 is a great lens, the 17-40 is pretty much a swap both in price and maybe a slight step down in IQ, but not by much.
> 
> It costs money to produce and manufacture individual lines of lenses, especially if there is a smaller market. Makes a lot of sense to me for Canon to promote Pro bodies with Pro lenses the L series, have general purpose mid level EF lenses, and then have some more specific EF-S lenses to fill out the crop line.



I wouldn't say the 17-40 is a downgrade in IQ, personally... some say it's soft on corners on full frame cameras but I shot an interior glamor aircraft shot of a private charter company with it and the 5d and it was as good if not better than the 10-22 was on my crop cameras when I had it. It was printed at 19x13 and even at the extreme corners you can see the weaves of the fabric on the aircraft walls, threads in the carpet, crisp highlight detail glimmering off the wood. anywho, as you said, canon has put a lot of money into marketing EF-S lenses and those heavily invested in that glass wont want to part with them to go up to a 5d or 1D and pay a few thousand more just on glass to replace the lenses the cannot use anymore. I dont see the 7D as being one and done. I just also dont see a replacement any time soon


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## BXL (Feb 14, 2012)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> If this is true then we'll have a huge gap -
> 
> $1500 70D
> and oh, if you want anything better:
> $3000 5dmkiii


Will we? Both 70D and 5D Mk III are only rumors. We don't know the specs, we don't know their names and we don't know the prices. 

7D: $ 1499 
5D Mk II: $ 2399

If the 5D Mk III (or 5D X) will cost around $ 2999, most likely the price of successor of the 7D will be considerably higher as well, leaving enough room for a camera between it and the rebel line. That's why I don't believe the rumor that the xxD line of cameras will be dropped or that a 70D will replace the 7D.


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## JonJT (Feb 14, 2012)

BXL said:


> Chuck Alaimo said:
> 
> 
> > If this is true then we'll have a huge gap -
> ...



Price won't really matter. Sure, if you priced the 7D successor at 2K and had the next closest APS-C at 800, you could stick another body in there around 1300 or 1400 but, if the feature set isn't rightly between those two bodies, Canon would be wasting their money and would do damage to their market share.


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## BXL (Feb 14, 2012)

JonJT said:


> BXL said:
> 
> 
> > Chuck Alaimo said:
> ...


The main difference between the 600D, 60D and the 7D is the AF, the number of cross-type sensors, fps, size of the viewfinder etc. IMO there are enough features to differentiate between those three products lines (consume, prosumer, pro).


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## dtaylor (Feb 14, 2012)

Gcon said:


> I should know as I own two 5DMarkII's and a 7D. I bought the 7D thinking it would be close to the 5D in image quality, or at least in the same ballpark. I was excited by its features and thought I could live with a small drop in IQ for the sake of all those other goodies. Unfortunately it's not even close.



I get so beyond tired of this nonsense. I have made 24" prints from the two cameras and posted 100% crops online, and in both cases asked viewers to tell me which came from which camera. Note that I did not show them labeled views, but unlabeled ones. *Not once has any viewer successfully done this.* Over a dozen print views and well past a hundred online views and not one person could even guess correctly.

At high ISO, there's a difference. At low to mid ISO they're not only close, they're so close that it's impossible to tell them apart in a real test. I regularly make large prints and I consider paper choice to have a greater impact on final IQ than the choice between these two sensors.

If you show a human being two identical prints...same exact image...and tell them one came from a model A camera but one came from a much better model B camera, the average viewer will tell you they see the difference and the B print is much better *even though the prints are identical.* Some will even go into great detail as to why B is better! This is human nature. It's the inescapable way our brains are wired. The true test is to show unlabeled images and ask which, if any, is better, or if they are the same. And guess what happens in those tests...



> 1. You have a fantastically featured awesome little camera with great autofocus, button layout, flash trigger capabilities, weather sealing, responsiveness...yadda yadda yadda.... but with a horrible sensor



The sensor is fantastic and is better for those in focal length limited situations.



> That lineup is just whack and they should really do a sensor swap. Canon will address this by putting crop sensors solely back into the XXD line with the 70D, and boosting the features of the 5DmarkIII so they meet or surpass the 7D - guaranteed. Well shots per second *might* be down a bit, and there will be no onboard flash but these are the only exceptions I can think of).



That and pixels on target. I use a 7D heavily for sports photography, and I do not want to sacrifice the crop factor or a single frame per second. I have numerous 24" prints that involved more cropping with a final image size of 9-10 MP. On a 5D2 or a theoretical 5D3 at 22 MP I would have ended up with 3-4 MP, not enough for the print.

Canon needs a pro crop body geared for sports. The 7D basically filled that role. Perhaps a 70D would as well, but my fear is that they would cripple it somehow to make it clearly lower in the lineup than the 5D3. Which would put us back to the days when Nikon had the only pro crop body.

A 61pt AF 22 MP 5D3 will compete against the 1Dx, but not the D800. I can tell you right now if Canon doesn't have an answer for the D800 this year at a comparable price point, I will have a D800. The 5D2 was successful because it was squarely targeted at wedding/portrait/landscape/studio work with 21 MP and high quality video at a much lower cost than Nikon's 25 MP body. Now Nikon is offering those users 36 MP at a comparable price point, and I know one pro wedding photographer who has already ordered one even though most of his current equipment is Canon.

Put simply, for sports work I want fast frame rates and crop because I'm typically FL limited. For landscapes I want MP, MP, MP. Canon could possibly fill both roles with a FF body that offered 8 fps and 35 MP or more (more would be better). But if they do that at the D800 price point, then what's the point of the 1Dx?



> If your 7D ego has just been bruised then I suggest you get yourself a full frame camera and start pixel peeping and see the "full frame light" my friend



Been there, done that, didn't see the light, and neither can anyone else when put to the test. I hate pixel peepers any way. I make prints. I don't sit in a dark room all night studying images for flaws at 400%.


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## dtaylor (Feb 14, 2012)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> I would gladly buy a 7D mkii with a 1.3 crop factor!



Why? It won't have the high ISO of FF nor the crop advantage of 1.6x. And it can't use the excellent, low cost UWA zooms available for crop. I think I would purposely ignore an APS-H body at this point.


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## unfocused (Feb 14, 2012)

dtaylor said:


> Gcon said:
> 
> 
> > If your 7D ego has just been bruised then I suggest you get yourself a full frame camera and start pixel peeping and see the "full frame light" my friend
> ...



Exactly!



JonJT said:


> Price won't really matter. Sure, if you priced the 7D successor at 2K and had the next closest APS-C at 800, you could stick another body in there around 1300 or 1400 but, if the feature set isn't rightly between those two bodies, Canon would be wasting their money and would do damage to their market share.



Ah, yes. The old problem of product differentiation and converging technology. As technology improves, the perceivable differences between products shrink. All of the camera manufacturers are facing this dilemma. It's got to be real hell for them to try find ways to meet consumer demand, while simultaneously finding the right mixture of features for each product. One mistake and you've undercut your product line. 

Good news is we consumers win because the products get better. Bad news is the price tags keep going up.


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## aloper (Feb 14, 2012)

Actually, not providing a follow up to the 7D does make sense if you think about a mirrorless camera coming soon...Remove the 7D from the high end and move everything up below it up one notch and now you have room at the lower to mid price range for a mirrorless camera...

So....
1Dx - $6900
5D X (?) - $3999-$4200
5D Mk3 - $2999
70D - $1999
T4i / Rebels - $1000-1500
Mirrorless - $899-1200
GX1 - Reduced to $699


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## AshtonNekolah (Feb 14, 2012)

no surprise here, and the 7D should of bin what the 60D is, after moving from the 40D to ff I always assumed that it would of bin the D line and since the 50D the last good quality body in its class went cheapo on the 60D its nice to welcome back the quality D line cameras, I always thought the 7D was a soft touch 5D but when i was told its the new line, that was kinda sad. why have all these names all over the place, somethings should n;t be changed especially when it works well. leave the rebel line the D line and have the Mark line. Im not sure what people call high end these days, but if a camera with a strong built body is considered one, well then the all the D up to the 50d is well built, and whats with the sd card anyway, i say leave that for PAS cameras bigger bodies need more beef inside out and for storage nothings looks as meaty as a CF Card. But its great to welcome back a new 70D if so and the 80D,90D and so on. ;D


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## the_limper (Feb 14, 2012)

Consider me one of those oddballs but I'd be bothered by this because I like my 60Dand I'd hate to see the line get moved up in cost and in size. It's a perfect fit for me...

I like the size and I don't like the larger size of the 7D nor do I like the size of the smaller xxx line. I upgraded to the 60D for the size and features. Merging the xD line into the xxD line just won't serve people like me at all.


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## MacPaul (Feb 14, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> I received a suggestion that Canon will not be making a sequel to the 7D. In other words, no 7D Mark II. The 60D replacement (70D?) will move back up to its previous position in the lineup. Does that mean the end of the 60D “super rebel” style camera as well?



Very simple, where's the problem?
70D (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44755254/EOS-7D-Mk.jpg) based on 7D technology, 7D AF, smaller body, rest remains the same except for Digic V and the usual improvements, please stay at 18MP and reduce noise, price tag should be less than Sony Alpha 77, because Sony puts a certain amount on pressure on the other companies via price. This would be the top of the line APS-C for serious amateurs or how they could be called.

EOS 650D takes position of 60D, getting 7D AF (without some functions like spot AF if you wish), back wheel and faster continous shooting while retaining its price tag to compete with Alpha 65.
EOS 600D will be offered parallel as Canon always does when they bring out a new Rebel.

EOS 5D gets splitted in one high res version to counter the D800 for roughly the same price tag and one version with 18MP EOS 5DX (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44755254/EOS-5DX.jpg) to replace the 7D for 1000€/$ less; dual Digic, 7-8 fps for that camera and please no video and reduced controls, get back to photography without movie functions, at least with one model.

With that lineup Canon can counter anything from Nikon (D800) and Sonys two Alphas. If necessary, they could still make a 7D Mk. II to counter the D400. In fact, I'd prefer that because even with the 5D split and a successor to the 7D Canon would still have the same camera count as before when they had two 1Ds.

This all is no problem for Canon if they'd just move their asses and show some more innovations; they have been luggish for too long for being the market leader.


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## AshtonNekolah (Feb 14, 2012)

Gcon said:


> I really think this is a good move. I've said it before http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,2969.msg62520.html#msg62520, and I'll say it again - Canon should never have made the 7D as good as it is functionally with a crop sensor. It's like putting a lawn-mower engine into a BMW convertible.
> 
> I should know as I own two 5DMarkII's and a 7D. I bought the 7D thinking it would be close to the 5D in image quality, or at least in the same ballpark. I was excited by its features and thought I could live with a small drop in IQ for the sake of all those other goodies. Unfortunately it's not even close. Makes sense though - the 5D Mark II has 2.56 times the surface area for the sensor, and sensor technology improves, but rarely by that amount in a year. The crop factor at 1.6x really does make a big difference.
> 
> ...




Im in the same boat as you 1000% no more crops for me either.


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## bonedaddy.p7 (Feb 14, 2012)

aloper said:


> Actually, not providing a follow up to the 7D does make sense if you think about a mirrorless camera coming soon...Remove the 7D from the high end and move everything up below it up one notch and now you have room at the lower to mid price range for a mirrorless camera...
> 
> So....
> 1Dx - $6900
> ...



at those prices Canon would be pricing themselves out of the market. When you are 1K over the competition (5DX) it makes jumping ship MUCH easier as many pros that I know might have many lenses, but only use one or 2 regularly. so a D800 with one lens makes it for all intents and purposes the same price as just the body of the 5DX. At 2K the 70D would have to be revolutionary, not just evolutionary. and the 650D at 1k means that the competition will eat them alive on new sales which are critical because that is when new customers buy into a system, and let's face it, most of the market that is at the xxxD level typically doesn't have the camera budget to switch back and forth between systems that much. 

While I honestly want a 7DII, I don't care what they call it so long as the pricing stays below 1800-2K and they retain the body style and features.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 14, 2012)

Gcon said:


> ....and I'll say it again - Canon should never have made the 7D as good as it is functionally with a crop sensor. It's like putting a lawn-mower engine into a BMW convertible.
> 
> I should know as I own two 5DMarkII's and a 7D. I bought the 7D thinking it would be close to the 5D in image quality, or at least in the same ballpark. I was excited by its features and thought I could live with a small drop in IQ for the sake of all those other goodies. Unfortunately it's not even close. Makes sense though - the 5D Mark II has 2.56 times the surface area for the sensor, and sensor technology improves, but rarely by that amount in a year. The crop factor at 1.6x really does make a big difference.
> 
> ...



If you are distance limited, the 7D sensor delivers a touch better than the 5D2, so what was so wrong with a little aps-c camera with better performance? Lots of people liked it.

And APS-C is less expensive and it's not like it performs that badly even when not distance limited, sure not as well as FF, although if you adjust aperture to make up for DOF the performance becomes much closer.





> That lineup is just whack and they should really do a sensor swap. Canon will address this by putting crop sensors solely back into the XXD line with the 70D, and boosting the features of the 5DmarkIII so they meet or surpass the 7D - guaranteed. Well shots per second *might* be down a bit, and there will be no onboard flash but these are the only exceptions I can think of). If they did kill the 7D line and put most of it's great features into the next 5D, then look out for a 5Dx moniker.



certainly nothing wrong with boosting small body FF specs, I've been asking for that for ages but I don't think it has to kill off the 7D, at least unless it has at least 30-36MP sensor density and APS-C crop mode.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 14, 2012)

GL said:


> smirkypants said:
> 
> 
> > It just doesn't make any sense. Why would they do that?
> ...



Don't knock the pop-up flash, you never know.

Out of the blue we once got a call that the stanley cup was in town and that we needed to run and get some shots instantly, pop up flash sure provided some nice little fill flash for the first location they had it in and some pros there were in the same situation and going "gotta love the pop up!"

And it's nice for the occasional little snap shot or a sudden unexpected thing like a tree frog appearing at night when that was the last thing you were expecting to shoot, etc. Not everyone want to always drag an external flash along every single time they are out.

Don't knock it.


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## awinphoto (Feb 14, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> GL said:
> 
> 
> > smirkypants said:
> ...



Also dont forget the D300, D300s, D700 AND the D800 all have pop up flashes. All them, in the nikon lineup, are considered pro bodies. Plus you got the wireless commander... It serves it's purpose for the Oh Crap moments. Also dont forget the 7D was aimed squarely at the D300 and the D300s. The 7D2 will likely be aimed squarely at the D400 or whatever it gets called when the time comes.


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## AprilForever (Feb 14, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > GL said:
> ...



The crop sensor is the big attraction of the 7D. Pop in a 22mp FF and you have a gelded wildlife camera. It's usefulness would be sorely degraded. 

The 1.6 crop is the best teleconverter there is. My 300 2.8 would suddenly have the field of view of the 200 side of my 70-200 f2.8,

It would be folly and mischievous madness for Canon to adulterate the 7D. By the way, what do you think the D400 is going to be like? If Canon drops the ball on the 7D MK II, and Nikon gets the D400 right, a lot of people are going to be looking long and hard at the other side of the fence.


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## Jim K (Feb 14, 2012)

If this rumor is true I want to know who was the bird/sport/wildlife shooter that really pis anoyed the Canon execs? Kill the 1D4 and now kill the 7D?

If you merge the 7D into the 70D what will it cost for a xxxD shooter to move up to the 70D? Will they pay that much? Well, if they just move the present 7D into the smaller body they could save the development cost of a 7D2 but then what will 7D users do for an upgrade? 

A question for the FF shooters that keep telling us to move up to FF. Do you shoot a supertelephoto + an extender? If I shot weddings and events there is no way I would have bought a second 7D rather than a 5D2 but I don't. At times I really need a 1120mm FOV (500mm x 1.4 x 1.6).

Perhaps I should buy a 1D4 before they are all gone, that way I would have f/8 AF with the lower crop.


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## Jim K (Feb 14, 2012)

Jim K said:


> If this rumor is true I want to know who was the bird/sport/wildlife shooter that really pis anoyed the Canon execs? Kill the 1D4 and now kill the 7D?
> 
> If you merge the 7D into the 70D what will it cost for a xxxD shooter to move up to the 70D? Will they pay that much? Well, if they just move the present 7D into the smaller body they could save the development cost of a 7D2 but then what will 7D users do for an upgrade?
> 
> ...


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## DzPhotography (Feb 14, 2012)

Jim K said:


> Jim K said:
> 
> 
> > If this rumor is true I want to know who was the bird/sport/wildlife shooter that really pis anoyed the Canon execs? Kill the 1D4 and now kill the 7D?
> ...


Why are you quoting your own post?


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## awinphoto (Feb 14, 2012)

AprilForever said:


> It would be folly and mischievous madness for Canon to adulterate the 7D. By the way, what do you think the D400 is going to be like? If Canon drops the ball on the 7D MK II, and Nikon gets the D400 right, a lot of people are going to be looking long and hard at the other side of the fence.



I feel the same way. As i said before, I really cannot see Canon pumping out a canon 7d2 until A) the market demands of such a camera and B) when competition demands of such a camera. Few times has canon went ahead of nikon in announcement dates... mainly because they are playing chicken with nikon. In 09 they released the 50D, then nikon released the D90 which had video which made Canon shooters go up in arms that the 50D didn't have video, and then Canon responded with the 5d2. 

I think, like the 5d3 and the D800, canon is really looking at market surveys, and looking at their customers demands are before announcing/releasing the 5d3, and I think they will do the same with the 7d2 and the D400. It's a big chess match and they aren't going to make their move unless a move is to be made or their hand if forced into doing so.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Feb 14, 2012)

AprilForever said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



If its true that they're ending the 7D line, then nikon execs must be licking their chops, if canon does not even offer a pro/semi-pro crop, then nikon doesn't even have to get it right as it were.


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## DzPhotography (Feb 14, 2012)

Any of you guys come to think of it there might not be a 7DMkII RIGHT NOW or ANYTIME SOON? Nikon and Canon are currently occupied in upgrading their FF products, and may not have sufficient funds to also develop new APS-C sensors?


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## AprilForever (Feb 14, 2012)

Jim K said:


> If this rumor is true I want to know who was the bird/sport/wildlife shooter that really pis anoyed the Canon execs? Kill the 1D4 and now kill the 7D?
> 
> If you merge the 7D into the 70D what will it cost for a xxxD shooter to move up to the 70D? Will they pay that much? Well, if they just move the present 7D into the smaller body they could save the development cost of a 7D2 but then what will 7D users do for an upgrade?
> 
> ...



Canon is crazy. It's almost like they want the wildlife people to jump ship. Arthur Morris has been pretty tight-lipped on his blog about his opinion on the 1DX, but a few complaints have slipped through from time to time, especially about the no F8 AF.

To get the same FOV as my 7D with a 300 2.8, I would need a 500 F4. Bigger, heavier, expensiver, less hand-held. To get the same FOV as my 300 2.8 + 2x TC, I would need either to slap on a 2x TC and get a 1000 f8 with no AF, or go for a 800 5.6 with a 1.4x TC and... ...wait a minute, still NO AF!!!

Plus, that little bit of extra depth of field HELPS. Ever shot herons? On my 7D, I usually need to stop down to F8. If I were using FF, I would be stopping my 500 F4 down to f11. More diffraction, more high ISO to get a shutterspeed >1000...

A crop body just plain makes sense.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 14, 2012)

DzPhotography said:


> Why are you quoting your own post?



He meant to click Modify, but clicked Quote instead. I do that from time to time.


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## awinphoto (Feb 14, 2012)

DzPhotography said:


> Any of you guys come to think of it there might not be a 7DMkII RIGHT NOW or ANYTIME SOON? Nikon and Canon are currently occupied in upgrading their FF products, and may not have sufficient funds to also develop new APS-C sensors?



Thats my POV


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## DzPhotography (Feb 14, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> DzPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > Why are you quoting your own post?
> ...


Ok, now i understand


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## awinphoto (Feb 14, 2012)

AprilForever said:


> Jim K said:
> 
> 
> > If this rumor is true I want to know who was the bird/sport/wildlife shooter that really pis anoyed the Canon execs? Kill the 1D4 and now kill the 7D?
> ...



Once again this is all hypothetical and no one knows for sure until it is for sure. So i think we should cool down on the reaction of killing off any camera until it is confirmed or denied by having the 7d2 announced. We are all prisoners of the moment.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Feb 14, 2012)

DzPhotography said:


> Any of you guys come to think of it there might not be a 7DMkII RIGHT NOW or ANYTIME SOON? Nikon and Canon are currently occupied in upgrading their FF products, and may not have sufficient funds to also develop new APS-C sensors?



I'd say this makes a whole lot more sense, and what I hope to be true. The one flaw here is the sufficient funds part, if there is a 7d mkii (and the nikon equivilant) in the works, I doubt they're holding out on it due to finances. What I think may make more sense is that they don't want to distract people from the high end products right now. So they started at the top, 1dx. The next thing that came was lenses, and from the looks of there there are quite a few new ones and upgrades on older ones. A ton of lenses, and 2 maybe 3 FF bodies, there's definitely some logic in making sure all eyes are on those products...

And following that logic, its probably within the realm of possibility that they may want us to also believe there is no 7d mkII, why? same logic as above, those of us on the 7D may leap to a 5D mkiii because for the time being, there is no upgrade to be had other than that, and, if the 7D is 'rumored' to be discontinued, well then, it really becomes the only upgrade path...

With all that said - (even if it isn't true!) as long as the perception is that the xD line is better than the xxD line, and the xxD line is better than the xxxD line - how many of us will honestly believe they're upgrading if they move to from xD to xxD? 

And ya never know, if this is how it is and will go, many of us will save for a 5dmkii, but end up buying a 7dmkii, because come next year we would still not have enough saved for the 5d, but, that $2000 in the account might very well be enough for a 7dmkii...

http://chuckalaimo.com/


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## DzPhotography (Feb 14, 2012)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> DzPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > Any of you guys come to think of it there might not be a 7DMkII RIGHT NOW or ANYTIME SOON? Nikon and Canon are currently occupied in upgrading their FF products, and may not have sufficient funds to also develop new APS-C sensors?
> ...


Exactly my point  I agree that it maybe has to do with marketing strategy


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## lol (Feb 14, 2012)

AprilForever said:


> To get the same FOV as my 7D with a 300 2.8, I would need a 500 F4. Bigger, heavier, expensiver, less hand-held. To get the same FOV as my 300 2.8 + 2x TC, I would need either to slap on a 2x TC and get a 1000 f8 with no AF, or go for a 800 5.6 with a 1.4x TC and... ...wait a minute, still NO AF!!!
> 
> Plus, that little bit of extra depth of field HELPS. Ever shot herons? On my 7D, I usually need to stop down to F8. If I were using FF, I would be stopping my 500 F4 down to f11. More diffraction, more high ISO to get a shutterspeed >1000...
> 
> A crop body just plain makes sense.


There is one other alternative: high MP full frame so you can crop. I want the 45MP rumour to be true just for that, as you can recover crop reach at no cost by cropping, plus the side benefit of your zooms being extended on the wide end by having the bigger sensor. The only small hindrance to all that is shifting high MP at high fps is going to be killer, unless they perhaps offer crop modes with overlay guide lines in the viewfinder.

Just as a numerical example, assuming a 4fps 45MP full frame sensor that was processing limited not mirror limited, you could have 1.3x crop at almost 7fps and 26MP, and 1.6 crop at almost 18MP and 10fps.


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## briansquibb (Feb 14, 2012)

KeithR said:


> ogrizzo said:
> 
> 
> > *Excuse me?* I should stop taking pictures and start pixel peeping to justify the weight and the cost of full frame?
> ...



You may believe the 7D is better than the pro camera, he may believe that the pro cameras are better than the 7D. 

Agree to disagree but please dont be rude about it


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## awinphoto (Feb 14, 2012)

lol said:


> AprilForever said:
> 
> 
> > To get the same FOV as my 7D with a 300 2.8, I would need a 500 F4. Bigger, heavier, expensiver, less hand-held. To get the same FOV as my 300 2.8 + 2x TC, I would need either to slap on a 2x TC and get a 1000 f8 with no AF, or go for a 800 5.6 with a 1.4x TC and... ...wait a minute, still NO AF!!!
> ...



You know, i have a very mixed feeling about this attitude of just cropping in post... when I was much younger, I used to shoot some kids baseball games, and because my grandpa gave me one, I shot with a medium format kowa. I had the 80mm (normal lens) and the 150mm (telephoto, like a 100mm on 35mm). It wasn't as telephoto as some of the kids 35mm PAS pocket cameras, but in the end, i knew in the back of my mind, i could take that medium format film and crop in the enlarger to get as good of photos as they could get with the PAS cameras, but when parents wanted to see contact sheets to see if they wanted to have me print out any, even though I explained I could crop and get a great composition, they just couldn't visualize it in their minds eye. In the professional arena now, it's much easier and quicker to show a client on the fly a crop, but still to many, the idea of cropping still boggles peoples minds if the image isn't cropped perfect in the camera. while you and I and every other artistic minded person knows better, it's hard to convince a client... hey, I have this shot perfect, all I need to do is crop it. There's just something, at times, to have a crop camera do it for you automatically to remove any doubt from clients minds.


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## lol (Feb 14, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> There's just something, at times, to have a crop camera do it for you automatically to remove any doubt from clients minds.


I don't have to worry about this simply by not having "clients", but how often do you get clients looking at a DSLR output before processing? I just can't imagine that being a major problem. Might also be a "type of photography" difference too?


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## awinphoto (Feb 14, 2012)

lol said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > There's just something, at times, to have a crop camera do it for you automatically to remove any doubt from clients minds.
> ...



Sometimes I get the oddball that will want to, sometimes not. Sometimes, when shooting as a second shooter, you dont even get the chance to look at your own images after your done with the shoot, you just handoff the card to the primary shooter and they do what they want. Sometimes when I shoot with a model, I'll show them a file or two when I get a few great shots to boost their confidence a bit. Sometimes if they client really wants to have a "say" as to how the shoot is going... I shot for my clients, even if it isn't exactly what I would like for my portfolio per se, if they are happy, then i'm good. Some clients are trusting that you are the professional and you can get them a good final product, some clients, while they trust you, will want to have their art director at the shoot and you almost have to shoot tethered so they can proof every shot. Sometimes they are just nosey and want to make sure, while i take care of the actual photograph, they want to make sure thee isn't anything extra they could do to aid me with their product to get the best result, like chefs for example. This is why I try to get everything as perfect as I can in camera and then do minor post production, cropping, color balance if needed, etc. 

It's all about having the right tool for the job... sometimes its a crop camera, sometimes full frame, but if i know a file is going to need extensive cropping, I'll shoot a crop camera over a full frame anyday if I dont have access to a lens that can compensate for me.


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## Jim K (Feb 14, 2012)

DzPhotography said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > DzPhotography said:
> ...



I now understand too.

Thanks Neuroanatomist. I just got back on and couldn't figure how I got the second post three minutes after the first. Didn't bother to read the second either. Thought I might have double clicked and it reposted but wondered why did it take three minutes.


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## unfocused (Feb 14, 2012)

> There is one other alternative: high MP full frame so you can crop.



Sorry, but I just had to laugh about this. Years ago, when I was fresh out of journalism school and editing a small paper we had a freelance photographer who was a Speed Graphic guy. He insisted that he could shoot any subject with the 4x5 Speed Graphic and crop it. He used to look down on the "small sensor" cameras of the day (35mm SLR). 

Well, he was wrong. His pictures came out like crap. Cropping will never replace framing the image well in the first place.


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## awinphoto (Feb 14, 2012)

unfocused said:


> > There is one other alternative: high MP full frame so you can crop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly. With film you could enlarge but the more you did, the more you introduced grain, even in the largest sheets of film, same with noise and digital files. In the professional arena, it also comes off as very UNprofessional if you cant get it right in camera.


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## smirkypants (Feb 14, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Cropping will never replace framing the image well in the first place.


Well, yes and no, right? The D800 has a DX Mode that turns it into a crop-sensor camera. The only reason it can do this is because it has a huge number to start out with and it pre-crops it for you down to a 16MP camera. I don't know how this looks in the viewfinder or how it works in practice. It will be interesting.

Think of all the arguments that would just vanish if they came out with an über 5D that had enough MPs to be able to put it into an 16MP crop mode. Also, if you put an EF-S lens on it, it automatically senses it and puts the camera into crop mode.

Yeah, this is pretty much what the D800 does. Cool, right?


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## lol (Feb 14, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Cropping will never replace framing the image well in the first place.


In an ideal world, that might be the case. We are not in an ideal world, and you don't need "best" all the time. Be realistic, good enough is erm... good enough. By having a high MP full frame sensor, like the rumoured 45MP model, you can easily crop to APS-C equivalent. If it was good enough at APS-C, it will be good enough cropped from a high MP full frame.

Again I think we're into different needs for different jobs. While there may be many areas of photography where framing is comparatively easy, cropping is commonplace in wildlife. There's only so much "get to know your subject and wait for the shot" can get you. At times, the unexpected happens and you just gotta do what you can. Safest option in that case: middle point AF, zoom out, and worry about cropping later!


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## D_Rochat (Feb 14, 2012)

I'm going to get smited into the ground for this one..... Why are people acting like it's the end of the world if Canon makes the 70D the new 7D? If the make that move, they'll likely make the 70D better than the current 7D, so what's the problem? Is it because then you wouldn't have bragging rights on owning a "pro body"? As long as it's better, then who cares what number it's badged with. Whether or not they make a 7DII, you'll still get an upgrade. Or just buy a Nikon.... Let the smiting begin.


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## smirkypants (Feb 14, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> I'm going to get smited into the ground for this one..... Why are people acting like it's the end of the world if Canon makes the 70D the new 7D? If the make that move, they'll likely make the 70D better than the current 7D, so what's the problem? Is it because then you wouldn't have bragging rights on owning a "pro body"? As long as it's better, then who cares what number it's badged with. Whether or not they make a 7DII, you'll still get an upgrade. Or just buy a Nikon.... Let the smiting begin.


No, it's because if it's a 70D it won't have pro features. The xxD line is gimped compared to the xD line. I want high end durability, AF, metering, 2 CF slots... everything that's in the 1D line but with a APS-C sensor. I'm not the only one.


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## briansquibb (Feb 14, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> D_Rochat said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to get smited into the ground for this one..... Why are people acting like it's the end of the world if Canon makes the 70D the new 7D? If the make that move, they'll likely make the 70D better than the current 7D, so what's the problem? Is it because then you wouldn't have bragging rights on owning a "pro body"? As long as it's better, then who cares what number it's badged with. Whether or not they make a 7DII, you'll still get an upgrade. Or just buy a Nikon.... Let the smiting begin.
> ...



I would be mighty disappointed to buy a 'pro' body ony to find a APS-C sensor inside.

The 70D will essentially be a 7DII - ie a 7D with improved features, like a Digic 5, maybe even 10fps. But dont expect twin cards and pro AF for $1500


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## Maui5150 (Feb 14, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> The 70D will essentially be a 7DII - ie a 7D with improved features, like a Digic 5, maybe even 10fps. But dont expect twin cards and pro AF for $1500



Wait, you mean the 7D MKII will not be a 24 MP APS-C, with 61 point AF, 51200 Native ISO, weather sealed, Dual CF Card, Built-in Wireless, 10 FPS for $1200?????????

You mean I have been waiting for nothing?????

I thought the 7D MK II was basically the 1DX, just with an APS-C sensor, and since crop sensors are so cheap, they can sell it for around $1200 and still make a huge mark-up....


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## D_Rochat (Feb 14, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> D_Rochat said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to get smited into the ground for this one..... Why are people acting like it's the end of the world if Canon makes the 70D the new 7D? If the make that move, they'll likely make the 70D better than the current 7D, so what's the problem? Is it because then you wouldn't have bragging rights on owning a "pro body"? As long as it's better, then who cares what number it's badged with. Whether or not they make a 7DII, you'll still get an upgrade. Or just buy a Nikon.... Let the smiting begin.
> ...



What you're asking for is a cheap 1D with an APS-C sensor, not a 7D. I want a 1D that makes coffee as well. Probably not going to happen.


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## kapanak (Feb 14, 2012)

Maui5150 said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > The 70D will essentially be a 7DII - ie a 7D with improved features, like a Digic 5, maybe even 10fps. But dont expect twin cards and pro AF for $1500
> ...



Sarcasm is very hard to detect on the internet.


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## fengshui (Feb 14, 2012)

The big advantage of the 7D is cost. Many photographers want a body that's more featured than the XXD series, but don't want to pay the costs of upgrading to Full-Frame. If they dropped the 7D, would they really move the AF, Viewfinder, CF, and Weather Sealing features down into the XXD series? If not, what do photographers with a large investment in EF-S lenses do? 

Sure, if you're starting from scratch with multiple thousands of dollars, going FF from the beginning is great. But many people get into photography piecemeal, starting with an entry-level kit package, then adding a macro or wide-angle lens here, then a prime or two there. When they're ready to step up to a new body, Canon needs to have an option.


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## BXL (Feb 14, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> The 70D will essentially be a 7DII - ie a 7D with improved features, like a Digic 5, maybe even 10fps. But dont expect twin cards and pro AF for $1500


Well, I don't believe that a 70D will get a better AF than the 7D. The product cycle of the 7D will be longer than that of the xxD cameras and one of the features that differentiate the 7D from the 60D/70D is the AF, the fps, the dual Digic. 

Thus even if a 70D is introduced this autumn, it doesn't mean that it will be an improved version of the 7D. Most likely its just an upgrade of the 60D with an advanced version of the 9 cross-type AF and some other improvements.


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## gmrza (Feb 14, 2012)

fengshui said:


> The big advantage of the 7D is cost. Many photographers want a body that's more featured than the XXD series, but don't want to pay the costs of upgrading to Full-Frame. If they dropped the 7D, would they really move the AF, Viewfinder, CF, and Weather Sealing features down into the XXD series? If not, what do photographers with a large investment in EF-S lenses do?
> 
> Sure, if you're starting from scratch with multiple thousands of dollars, going FF from the beginning is great. But many people get into photography piecemeal, starting with an entry-level kit package, then adding a macro or wide-angle lens here, then a prime or two there. When they're ready to step up to a new body, Canon needs to have an option.



I agree with the cost reasoning about the 7D, however, if we look at the current price of the 5DII, it is not far above where the 7D used to be.
One challenge for 7D users is the lack of a good lens selection for a high quality crop frame camera - this is mainly an issue at the wide end. The biggest issue is that there is not really anything to compare to the 24-105mm f/4L IS USM.
In terms of development effort, Canon might be getting close to a point where it is cheaper to sell a full frame body in the 7D price range than to develop high quality, wide angle to medium focal length lenses for crop frame. (This really covers zooms with IS and weather sealing and prime lenses.)
Given that Canon's pro/high end lens line up is still biased to full frame, while the EF-S line-up is biased to entry level, it might be more desirable for Canon to try to convert 7D users to full frame. That approach would however leave wildlife photographers out in the cold if there is no high quality crop frame body. - Canon would probably argue for the use of a 1.4x TC, but then the issues of IQ and AF at f/8 come into play.


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## wickidwombat (Feb 15, 2012)

Several things here

1. Canon are not stupid they have been around for a long time and are the market leader - they want it to stay that way

2. they are clearly addressing all the concerns of the FF crowd me included  maybe not as quickly as everyone would like but I think this next round of products are going to pretty awesome.

3. They most definately have noticed the EVIL / mirrorless competitors savaging the bottom end of the DSLR market. I fully expect they will respond with something here that knocks the competition out of the park. Everyone in the mirrorless arena talk up APS-C sensors as being huge, cannon are already all over the APS-H tech, might we see the rebirth of APS-H in this format? The thought of an APS-H mirrorless at a decent price, with and EF adaptor?

4. I seriously doubt canon are going to just drop the APS-C crowd or let it die I think they will come out with a stunning high end APS-C. The build of the current 7D is great if they use the same body and beef up everything else and call it a 70D does it really matter? they do need to rationalise the APS-C line especially with the mirrorless compacts eating into that arena i mean 7D, 60D, 600D and 1100D with a price gap of what $700 seperating all of them? somethings gotta give here.

anyway thats just my thoughts on the subject
Canon bring it on!


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## AUGS (Feb 15, 2012)

One thing I've never really understood, and maybe someone like neuro can inform me, but why does the Canon naming/numbering seem discontinuous and random. By that I mean we have the flagship in the 1D, and pro-bodies and generally accepted next level down being the 5D, followed by current 7D (ignoring all mark versions).
So why is the next Series "leader" the 60D and not the 10D (which is no longer available)?

Is this rumour, and the rumoured 5D split into 2 bodies, the change to their naming paradigm? Could we see the rumoured 5D split become 5Dx (22MP, 1D type AF, etc) and 7Dx (full-frame big MP based on existing 7D sensor scaled up, 7D type AF spec, higher fps - hence no 7D2 - and as seen in Kenya which looked very 7D-esque), with the successor to the 7D becoming the 10Dx and we see a gradual naming convention trickle down over time? The 10Dx becomes the APS-C flagship with current 7D type features including the AF, build standard and any upgrades?

Just a thought based on a huge number of rumours and postings of late.


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## RuneL (Feb 15, 2012)

I'd not be surprised if they killed the 7D. I've always wondered at the purpose of that camera. Upgrading the XXD's to take it's place and releasing a faster focusing, fast shooting 5D and supplementing with a slower high MP one makes sense.

Also, the corp-factor argument for extra reach is getting tired, even Canon showed us this with the 1D X. Sports and wildlife shooters need reach, but plenty of them use full frame Nikons. If you are a pro that needs super reach you get the lens for it. 

go for it. Kill the 7D.


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## RuneL (Feb 15, 2012)

AUGS said:


> One thing I've never really understood, and maybe someone like neuro can inform me, but why does the Canon naming/numbering seem discontinuous and random. By that I mean we have the flagship in the 1D, and pro-bodies and generally accepted next level down being the 5D, followed by current 7D (ignoring all mark versions).
> So why is the next Series "leader" the 60D and not the 10D (which is no longer available)?
> 
> Is this rumour, and the rumoured 5D split into 2 bodies, the change to their naming paradigm? Could we see the rumoured 5D split become 5Dx (22MP, 1D type AF, etc) and 7Dx (full-frame big MP based on existing 7D sensor scaled up, 7D type AF spec, higher fps - hence no 7D2 - and as seen in Kenya which looked very 7D-esque), with the successor to the 7D becoming the 10Dx and we see a gradual naming convention trickle down over time? The 10Dx becomes the APS-C flagship with current 7D type features including the AF and build standard?
> ...



If Canon were to stick to their naming convention the followup 7D would be the MK II. Only the XXD, XXXD etc change their model number. PRobably due to the 1D and 5D being very strong brands, not so sure about 7D though, so... Maybe it'll be an 8 or 9 or 10?

And if you think Canons naming is weird look at Nikons.


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## fengshui (Feb 15, 2012)

RuneL said:


> I'd not be surprised if they killed the 7D. I've always wondered at the purpose of that camera. Upgrading the XXD's to take it's place and releasing a faster focusing, fast shooting 5D and supplementing with a slower high MP one makes sense.
> 
> Also, the corp-factor argument for extra reach is getting tired, even Canon showed us this with the 1D X. Sports and wildlife shooters need reach, but plenty of them use full frame Nikons. If you are a pro that needs super reach you get the lens for it.
> 
> go for it. Kill the 7D.



The point of the 7D is to provide an upgrade path for users with an investment in EF-S lenses, and for wildlife/sports shooters who want extra reach and speed on EF series lenses.


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## AUGS (Feb 15, 2012)

RuneL said:


> AUGS said:
> 
> 
> > One thing I've never really understood, and maybe someone like neuro can inform me, but why does the Canon naming/numbering seem discontinuous and random. By that I mean we have the flagship in the 1D, and pro-bodies and generally accepted next level down being the 5D, followed by current 7D (ignoring all mark versions).
> ...



True, I can see that. No reason for the new high MP to be called 7Dx, I was just alluding to the fact that the high MP body may take many "features" from the existing 7D and the rumour it may not be succeeded. It could be 6Dx (or any other single digit number) and allow the 7D to co-exist until its successor is unveiled.

For the same reasons of strong branding of 1D and 5D, I'm surprised 10D isn't highly coveted.

I do know Nikons naming is very confusing. Canon has at least some logic behind it.


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## dtaylor (Feb 15, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> What you're asking for is a cheap 1D with an APS-C sensor, not a 7D. I want a 1D that makes coffee as well. Probably not going to happen.



The 7D is already a "cheap 1D with an APS-C sensor." But if they reposition it in the xxD line I doubt it will get some of the emerging pro features. I don't care what they call it as long as it has the specs I want. And I want a pro level APS-C body.


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## Gcon (Feb 15, 2012)

ogrizzo said:


> Gcon said:
> 
> 
> > If your 7D ego has just been bruised then I suggest you get yourself a full frame camera and start pixel peeping and see the "full frame light" my friend
> ...



The 7D is a great camera for news/reportage:- light, rugged, relatively cheap, and news copy doesn't need that high a quality images for web pages and black and white newspaper print. It's not archival material  Smaller file sizes too. Most of those shots will be bright daylight shots where IQ isn't really an issue. Saves the news desk on cost both up front and insurance too - and they always look to save money.

Pixel peeping - I'm not sure how you're going to pixel peep if you "stop taking images" - you generally need an image first in order to peep it.  By pixel peeping I should clarify I don't mean just head-butting the monitor and 1:1 zoom of the image. The noise/color differences of the inferiority of the 7D is well noticeable to me at "normal viewing distances". I'll scan through my photos quickly in Lightroom and hit an image and think "ahh what's not right about that one?" and then check EXIF and then go... ah!! another 7D image. True story. I'm not biased - just calling it how I've seen it.

If you're not prepared to carry the weight of a full frame for better image quality, then don't even think about medium format! I hope your car holds in there buddy. 



KeithR said:


> ogrizzo said:
> 
> 
> > *Excuse me?* I should stop taking pictures and start pixel peeping to justify the weight and the cost of full frame?
> ...



Thanks for the entertainment Keith. You can address me directly in forums if you like instead of the third person.  I agree with you on many things. I am a "full frame zealot" from years of experience with both crops and full frame cameras. For what I shoot - it gives me the quality I need. I also a agree that I do blame my tools if I've used the wrong one for the job. The 7D has let me down in low-light high-ISO situations. Switching to the 5D in the same situations has saved the shoot.

Speaking of what I shoot, it's low-light landscapes, portraits and weddings. Stuff that is ideally suited to full frame for the low noise, dynamic range, colour and clarity. It suits me - might not suit you. It gives my clients the quality they deserve. As for "bad workman" - a bad workman is someone doesn't know the limitations of their tools. A good workman will use the best tools for the job. I won't embarrass you by listing my achievements both commercial and otherwise...no I won't start - it's not about me - it's about the cameras 

The 7D is good for the aforementioned news reportage, and is great for the bird shooters and aircraft shooters out there, when shooting in good light. Saves having to fork out for a much bigger and more expensive lens. If anyone suggests that the 7D has the image quality of the full frame (and I'm not sure that you are but if you are....) then you're sadly mistaken. I suggest you get to the eye doctor ASAP, or upgrade your monitor... or both!

Have fun.... don't get your ego too bruised here. Go outside and take a walk in the sunshine... don't take it to heart that the 7D line might get axed hehe. Canon still loves you! They will love you even more if you trade up to full frame and then buy a swag of L lenses


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## dtaylor (Feb 15, 2012)

RuneL said:


> Also, the corp-factor argument for extra reach is getting tired, even Canon showed us this with the 1D X. Sports and wildlife shooters need reach, but plenty of them use full frame Nikons. If you are a pro that needs super reach you get the lens for it.



And if you don't have the $5-15k required for the lenses you need but Nikon offers a pro level crop body...you go to Nikon? Some how I don't think that's a winning strategy for Canon since the number of people on a budget who want a pro level crop camera exceed the number of pros who can shoot FF sports cameras with super expensive telephotos.


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## Herr_Synnberg (Feb 15, 2012)

Hello all,

I'm a long term reader and decided to chip in for the first time in this topic. My personal feeling is that the 60D was a marketing blunder from Canon. They totally misread Nikon's intentions with the upgrade to the D90 and "Dumbed down" the 50D successor into D90 territory. Nikon on the other hand scaled up the D7000 into 50D territory.

I can understand Canon's intentions to elevate the 60D successor back in specs to be a competitor to the D7000, owing to the strong sales of the latter, but to kill off the 7D for that would be absolutely stupid. Stupid, because Canon products don't exist in a vaccuum, but compete with offerings from other manufacturers. The 7D was conceived as a competitor to the much respected D300 and it did that job very well. As many have mentioned in this thread, the "Budget action shooter" prefers exactly this kind of camera and don't really intend to upgrade to FF anytime soon. The D400 would be taking this category further and the Sony A77 is no slouch either. To completely ignore this segment segment would be Canon's folly.

...and no, a "Specced up" 5D won't be an answer as well. There's no way Canon can price that at D400/ A77 levels. At best, this body would live alongside the 7D equivalent, much like how the D700 and D300 did. They are bought by very different types of photographers with only minor overlap between them.


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## dtaylor (Feb 15, 2012)

Gcon said:


> Pixel peeping - I'm not sure how you're going to pixel peep if you "stop taking images" - you generally need an image first in order to peep it.  By pixel peeping I should clarify I don't mean just head-butting the monitor and 1:1 zoom of the image. The noise/color differences of the inferiority of the 7D is well noticeable to me at "normal viewing distances". I'll scan through my photos quickly in Lightroom and hit an image and think "ahh what's not right about that one?" and then check EXIF and then go... ah!! another 7D image. True story. I'm not biased - just calling it how I've seen it.



If other people are producing prints and even 100% crops that cannot be discerned from 5D2 shots, then perhaps you are doing something wrong.



> I won't embarrass you by listing my achievements both commercial and otherwise...no I won't start - it's not about me - it's about the cameras



No one cares. Can you pass a double blind test and tell us, with 100% accuracy, which prints or crops come from which camera when both are shot/processed to maximum potential? That's all that matters.



> If anyone suggests that the 7D has the image quality of the full frame (and I'm not sure that you are but if you are....) then you're sadly mistaken. I suggest you get to the eye doctor ASAP, or upgrade your monitor... or both!



For properly processed, low to mid ISO shots there are no significant differences. Yes, there is a difference out of camera with neutral settings, but nobody I know shoots or prints that way.

The 5D2 pulls ahead at high ISO, though the 7D does quite well through 3200 for normal print sizes. Oh yeah, I just had my yearly eye exam (20/10).



> They will love you even more if you trade up to full frame and then buy a swag of L lenses



Rumors are rumors and this 7D rumor is probably rubbish. But...if Canon fails to answer the D800 and fails to continue their pro crop body, Nikon will eventually get my money. Will Canon still love me then?

Canon needs a high MP FF body and a fast, professional level, sports orientated crop body. I hope they realize that.


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## D.Sim (Feb 15, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Cropping will never replace framing the image well in the first place.
> ...



Then breaks the mirror/lens? The main reason you can't put a EF-S lens onto a FF/EF Only camera isn't that Canon don't want you "cropping down" in camera, its more that the EF-S lenses work by getting closer to the sensor - hence the S - "Short back focus" if i remember correctly. IE, once the lens is on, its a lot closer to the sensor AND mirror, and with the bigger sensored/mirrored cameras, that means theres a massive chance of it making contact. 

Its not so much Canon don't want to, its more of a design issue, where the EF-S lenses were designed that way, in order to reduce cost & end user price


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## Herr_Synnberg (Feb 15, 2012)

D.Sim said:


> smirkypants said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



This, and also because Nikon owns patents that related to offering in-camera crop modes, if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## AUGS (Feb 15, 2012)

D.Sim said:


> smirkypants said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



EF-S is a poka-yoke feature. Poka-yoke is a Japanese term that means "fail-safing" or "mistake-proofing". The EF-S lens aren't designed for the full-frame cameras due to the shorter distance between the back of the lens and the sensor, and have been designed to mistake-proof by not allowing the lens to engage where not specifically design to do so.


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## krjc (Feb 15, 2012)

I'm looking to move up to full frame in the next nine months but at the same time I want an APS-C sensor and the market for such a camera (semi-pro) is not going away. I would be willing to upgrade to a 7DII with an incremental improvement in IQ, DR and high ISO performance.


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## Meh (Feb 15, 2012)

D.Sim said:


> Then breaks the mirror/lens? The main reason you can't put a EF-S lens onto a FF/EF Only camera isn't that Canon don't want you "cropping down" in camera, its more that the EF-S lenses work by getting closer to the sensor - hence the S - "Short back focus" if i remember correctly. IE, once the lens is on, its a lot closer to the sensor AND mirror, and with the bigger sensored/mirrored cameras, that means theres *a massive chance of it making contact*.



Correct. But it is more than a massive chance... it would be an absolute certainty.


----------



## D.Sim (Feb 15, 2012)

Meh said:


> D.Sim said:
> 
> 
> > Then breaks the mirror/lens? The main reason you can't put a EF-S lens onto a FF/EF Only camera isn't that Canon don't want you "cropping down" in camera, its more that the EF-S lenses work by getting closer to the sensor - hence the S - "Short back focus" if i remember correctly. IE, once the lens is on, its a lot closer to the sensor AND mirror, and with the bigger sensored/mirrored cameras, that means theres *a massive chance of it making contact*.
> ...




I was trying to be diplomatic


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## maxxevv (Feb 15, 2012)

Yes, most people still want a high density sensor for 'reach' applications. And partly also for cost. 

But what if the 7D successor moved up the ladder and became a APS-H, with compatibility to EF-S lenses ? 
And kept the pixel density at about 12-16Mp instead for APS-C crop ? 

Wouldn't that make for a very appealing camera if it kept all the bells and whistles of the orignal 7D and add a Digic V processor? In the process (mainly due to US$ to Yen exchange rates), price moves to about US$2200.


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## D.Sim (Feb 15, 2012)

dilbert said:


> smirkypants said:
> 
> 
> > D_Rochat said:
> ...



Agreed - just because the 60D isn't the top of the line body doesn't mean the 70D can't be - the two digits were the top of the line before, no reason they shouldn't be now. 

And if you're talking about the durability of the xxD, and watching the digitalrev video of them destroying the Canon/Nikon but still getting it work.... as someone whos just managed to break his 50D, its sorta a moot point - it CAN break, just depends on what you do with it...


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## Gcon (Feb 15, 2012)

dtaylor said:


> > If other people are producing prints and even 100% crops that cannot be discerned from 5D2 shots, then perhaps you are doing something wrong.
> 
> 
> In the conditions the most favor the 7D, with a bit of noise reduction and maybe some blur tool on the bokeh, I can produce prints that are very close to the 5DmarkII. It takes a fair bit of work though, and my time is valuable. Alas the conditions I need my 5D2 aren't very friendly to the poor old 7D, and no amount of work will save the 7D image under those conditions.
> ...


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## [email protected] (Feb 15, 2012)

I'm in the market for a DSLR and two lenses, willing to spend about $2500. I'm thinking EOS 60D and canon ef-s 15-85 and 70-200 f/4L IS USM. Any thoughts? I'm mainly shooting family photos/outdoor activities/youth sports and travel shots.


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## briansquibb (Feb 15, 2012)

Herr_Synnberg said:


> This, and also because Nikon owns patents that related to offering in-camera crop modes, if I'm not mistaken.



I have a Canon EOS IX film camera that allows in camera cropping - so probably not


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## wickidwombat (Feb 15, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> I'm in the market for a DSLR and two lenses, willing to spend about $2500. I'm thinking EOS 60D and canon ef-s 15-85 and 70-200 f/4L IS USM. Any thoughts? I'm mainly shooting family photos/outdoor activities/youth sports and travel shots.




Here you go

see if you can stretch another $500

and go 60D with 17-55 f2.8 IS and the 70-200 f2.8 non IS

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/U1821-Canon-60D-17-55mm-f2-8-77mm-CPL-16GB-Bat-Gft-Wty-/380410110627?pt=UK_CamerasPhoto_DigitalCameras_DigitalCameras_JN&hash=item589235a2a3
and
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/A0487-Canon-EF-70-200mm-f-2-8-L-USM-Lens-Gift-5YrsWty-/390340094308?pt=AU_Lenses&hash=item5ae2152964


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## Meh (Feb 15, 2012)

maxxevv said:


> Yes, most people still want a high density sensor for 'reach' applications. And partly also for cost.
> 
> But what if the 7D successor moved up the ladder and became a APS-H, with compatibility to EF-S lenses ?
> And kept the pixel density at about 12-16Mp instead for APS-C crop ?
> ...



Sorry but no, EF-S lenses are designed for APS-C sensors and can not be used for larger sensors. EF-S lenses extend further into the body therefore the larger mirror on an APS-H or FF would hit the back of the lens. EF-S lenses also produce a smaller image circle designed to cover an APS-C sensor only.


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## maxxevv (Feb 15, 2012)

Meh said:


> Sorry but no, EF-S lenses are designed for APS-C sensors and can not be used for larger sensors. EF-S lenses extend further into the body therefore the larger mirror on an APS-H or FF would hit the back of the lens. EF-S lenses also produce a smaller image circle designed to cover an APS-C sensor only.



Perhaps its not clear in what I wrote. Let me elaborate. 

In-camera crop on an APS-H sensor to use an APS-C lens isn't too far of a stretch isn't it ? The mirror of the 1.3crop isn't that big compared really and with some tweaks, it may fit an EF-S lens. 

There was a story / article of a guy who did something of the sort with his 1D and mounted an EF-S lens, albeit with some minor modifications to his lens only. The height difference between an APS-C and APS-H is less than 5mm. 

So, it might be possible to tweak the mirror in an APS-H camera to have sufficient clearance for an EF-S lens' rear protrusion. 

Thus an APS-H camera with an APS-C crop mode by allowing it to accept EF-S lenses. Especially if the AF module was designed for APS-C in the first place. Possible ?? ;D


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## D.Sim (Feb 15, 2012)

maxxevv said:


> Meh said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry but no, EF-S lenses are designed for APS-C sensors and can not be used for larger sensors. EF-S lenses extend further into the body therefore the larger mirror on an APS-H or FF would hit the back of the lens. EF-S lenses also produce a smaller image circle designed to cover an APS-C sensor only.
> ...



Again, no. the whole idea of the EF-S lens is that the rear element is *really really* close to the sensor. Just how you intend to tweak a mirror so that it becomes smaller but still covers the same area is beyond me.


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## wickidwombat (Feb 15, 2012)

maxxevv said:


> Meh said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry but no, EF-S lenses are designed for APS-C sensors and can not be used for larger sensors. EF-S lenses extend further into the body therefore the larger mirror on an APS-H or FF would hit the back of the lens. EF-S lenses also produce a smaller image circle designed to cover an APS-C sensor only.
> ...


I think its physically possible to do and then why not consider making it mirrorless! no problems with mirrors hitting lenses anymore.

also not sure how many here have used nikons but say you put a DX18-200 on a full frame FX film body you only get very severe corner vignetting not unlike what the tamron 18-270 delivers that people seem to put up with. on the FX digitals the electonics crop it to 1.5 for you so you dont get that.
Even using the APS-C EF-S lenses on the APS-H sensor would only result in some corner darkening anyway then let the user crop as desired

I think an APS-H with APS-C in camera crop that can use EF and EF-S lenses would be cool especially if you get boosted frame rate with the APS-C mode too. If that was canons entry to the mirrorless segment it would set the bar pretty high for the sonys and panasonics to chase and the nikon v1 and j1 would be outdated instantly


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## AprilForever (Feb 15, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Cropping will never replace framing the image well in the first place.
> ...



Even if you could mount an ef-s lens, it would get caught by the mirror, which is much larger on a FF camera.

What I still can't get is why anyone wants a fullframe 7D. Get a 5d! You speak of autofocus. Get a 1Ds mk III. You speak of price. Get a D800. You say you still want it cheaper. Many have posted they want a 7D FF for not much more than a 7D. This totally makes no sense.

The 7D is a great camera because of it's APS-C sensor. Bloat the sensor, and destroy the camera.


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## briansquibb (Feb 15, 2012)

AprilForever said:


> What I still can't get is why anyone wants a fullframe 7D. Get a 5d! You speak of autofocus. Get a 1Ds mk III. You speak of price. Get a D800. You say you still want it cheaper. Many have posted they want a 7D FF for not much more than a 7D. This totally makes no sense.
> 
> The 7D is a great camera because of it's APS-C sensor. Bloat the sensor, and destroy the camera.



Not everyone wants a ff 7D - there have been at least a couple of us pushing for an APS-H 7D - borrowing a lot from the venerable 1D4


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## aj1575 (Feb 15, 2012)

My two cents on this. The 7D is really a little bit odd; if one digit (xD) canons are for the pros, then the 7D was a bit weak. On the other hand there are are 3 consumer bodies (xxxxD, xxxD, xxD). This lineup somehow makes sense, just that the 7D is not really pro-grade.

*This is how I see the future lineup from Canon:* The 1Dx is for sport and wildlife shooters (high speed with 12fps, high ISO up to 200k). Then there will be the 5DmkIII, it looks at the moment that it won't compete with the D800, but I can see where it could be placed. the 5D will be for photojournalists who also like to make movies. The 5D is smaller more mobile package then the 1D, emphasis will be on good high ISO (low light ability, and video)
But there is somethin missing in the pro sector, and this is the landscape shooters. And here could the often rumored 3D fit in, which will be aimed at the D800. A camera with high resolution (40+MP) but a slower speed.

With these 3 pro bodies, there is no room for a 7D, so the xxD will move up a little (to where the 50D was). The difference between a 600D and 60D is quite narrow at the moment, and I think it makes sense to widen this gap.

Conclusion: 3 consumer bodies (entry, standard, advanced) and 3 pro bodies (Action, Landscape, Photojournalist) from canon, this would be a nice and logic lineup.


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## maxxevv (Feb 15, 2012)

D.Sim said:


> Again, no. the whole idea of the EF-S lens is that the rear element is *really really* close to the sensor. Just how you intend to tweak a mirror so that it becomes smaller but still covers the same area is beyond me.



Take a look at the difference between the rear mounts of an EF-S lens and EF one. Compare. 

Then look at the physical dimensions of APS-H and compare to that of the APS-C (Canon). They are a lot closer in size compared to the differences between them and FF. 

In any case, its just a conjuncture which I think isn't too far fetched if Canon wants a premium for its 'sub-pro' and 'super advanced' camera. It would not alienate EF-S users and at the same time provides a premium upgrade path too. 

But who knows... Canon may have other ideas.


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## Birdshooter (Feb 15, 2012)

aj1575 said:


> Conclusion: 3 consumer bodies (entry, standard, advanced) and 3 pro bodies (Action, Landscape, Photojournalist) from canon, this would be a nice and logic lineup.



Please bear in mind that in your setup the price of the Pro body for Actions is 3 times as high as the one for Photojournalist. That is strange if it is all the same Pro line.

This is how I see it:

1-series: Top of the Hill, best in everything. Pro

3-Series: High MP FF, low fps, Pro
5-Series: Mid MP FF, very good in high ISO, Pro
7-Series: Mid MP APS-C, high fps, Pro

Then the Advanced bodies in the xxD series, the Consumer bodies in the xxxD series and the entry level xxxxD series.

There is a market out there for Pro APS-C bodies, and if Canon don't realize that , then they ask people to first buy a body which is priced 3 times as high, and then combine it with long lenses which are double the price.
If the strategy of Canon is that they only want a selected croud being able to invest so much money, then indeed it was the last 7D out there, but also the last 5D and many other series as they will be killing their company.

The mass is paying for the R&D for the top Pro lines. BUT you need to keep the mass happy, and there is a mass out there for a Pro APS-C body!


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## nicku (Feb 15, 2012)

maxxevv said:


> D.Sim said:
> 
> 
> > Again, no. the whole idea of the EF-S lens is that the rear element is *really really* close to the sensor. J*ust how you intend to tweak a mirror so that it becomes smaller but still covers the same area* is beyond me.
> ...


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## D.Sim (Feb 15, 2012)

nicku said:


> maxxevv said:
> 
> 
> > D.Sim said:
> ...



You do realise Nikon's DX doesn't work the same way as Canon's EF-S?


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## nicku (Feb 15, 2012)

D.Sim said:


> nicku said:
> 
> 
> > maxxevv said:
> ...



 i meant in technology point of view....

...and is not very hard ( in terms of technology) to adapt the APS-H mirror to be compatible with EF-s lenses.


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## Edwin Herdman (Feb 15, 2012)

No 7D? I have to say - to hell with this rumor. Leave the crop sensor users something capable (and affordable). I'm definitely not going to be cheerleading for any 5D / 7D line compression, unless they manage to keep pixel density the same (i.e. the same "reach" for my lenses) in distance limited applications like birding, while keeping or even boosting per-pixel ISO performance, and also keeping the price reasonable and keeping the other pro-like features of the 7D. Tall order, really. I suppose all it would take is a bigger sensor, but I wonder if they really could slap in the pentaprism and AF sensor for the 1D or 5D X units. Doubt it, and I don't want to get something worse in that respect than the 7D has.


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## Edwin Herdman (Feb 15, 2012)

nicku said:


> D.Sim said:
> 
> 
> > nicku said:
> ...


You aren't guaranteed the EF-S lenses will cover a full image circle. That pretty much kills the discussion, I think.

Personally, 1.3X might not be a totally terrible compromise, though it would alter the field of view I get out of my lenses. So long as any change meets the criteria I laid out above I'm down with it...but only if it meets ALL of them.


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## darkmatter2k12 (Feb 15, 2012)

Can't belive this rumor. If Canon decide to do something like this it will be like shooting in his legs.


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## nicku (Feb 15, 2012)

Edwin Herdman said:


> nicku said:
> 
> 
> > D.Sim said:
> ...



No one says to keep the full resolution of a APS-H sensor when an EF-S lens is used. I mean when you will use a EF-s lens on a... say... 20MP APS-H sensor you will have 12-13MP effective resolution ( the camera will crop the 1.3 sensor to 1.6).


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## AvTvM (Feb 15, 2012)

nicku said:


> No one says to keep the full resolution of a APS-H sensor when an EF-S lens is used. I mean when you will use a EF-s lens on a... say... 20MP APS-H sensor you will have 12-13MP effective resolution ( the camera will crop the 1.3 sensor to 1.6).



wrong! 

1. EF-S lenses do NOT cover the image circle of APS-H (Crop 1.3x) - and even if you get a format-filling image at some focal lengths, vignetting will be really bad and IQ will be terrible towards the edges/corners. 

2. Especially the rear element of the EF-S 10-22 may very well be hit by the larger mirror in an APS-H camera - as long as we assume it will be a DSLR and not a mirrorless APS-H camera body.

3. Unfortunately Canonhas was dead wrong to introduce the EF-S mount for its APS-C lenses (Crop 1.6x). Nikon has done it 100% right and implemented the only sensible solution: only ONE lens mount for any and all lenses - FX and DX. And NO rear elements sticking into the body so they may be hit by a larger FF camera mirror. And especially the D4 and D800 offer perfect cropping solutions by automacially masking off parts of the viewfinder if a crop lens (DX) is mounted. Although I like my Crop camera (7D) and my 3 good EF-S lenses (10-22, 17-55, 60 Macro) I can cleraly tell how inferior Canon's EF-S concept is. 

4. Actually, Canon is not even taking advantage of the theoretical EF-S advantage. Only ONE EF-S lens (10-22) has a rear element sticking into the mirror box to be closer to the sensor. ALL other existing EF-S lenses could have implemented with an EF mount without any changes to their optical design. And even the EF-S 10-22 could have ben quite easily designed to also work with an EF mount ... Nikon had no problem designing their AF-S 10-24 DX to fit into their regular F-mount. 

5. I have no doubt whatsoever, that there will be a 7D successor with APS-C sensor (crop 1.6x). It will be better than the current 7D. It will most likely only be announced some time after Nikon launches their new DX pro-body (D400 or whatever they may call it).


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## maxxevv (Feb 15, 2012)

nicku said:


> No one says to keep the full resolution of a APS-H sensor when an EF-S lens is used. I mean when you will use a EF-s lens on a... say... 20MP APS-H sensor you will have 12-13MP effective resolution ( the camera will crop the 1.3 sensor to 1.6).



Precisely !!!


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## wickidwombat (Feb 15, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> nicku said:
> 
> 
> > No one says to keep the full resolution of a APS-H sensor when an EF-S lens is used. I mean when you will use a EF-s lens on a... say... 20MP APS-H sensor you will have 12-13MP effective resolution ( the camera will crop the 1.3 sensor to 1.6).
> ...



i think you missed the point 
1) crop the aps-h image to aps-c same way nikon does and since its processing a smaller image boost frame rate accordingly, (the vignetting isnt that bad anyway as i said before i've seen worse out of tamron ef lenses)
2) make it mirrorless problem solved


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## briansquibb (Feb 15, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> i think you missed the point
> 1) crop the aps-h image to aps-c same way nikon does and since its processing a smaller image boost frame rate accordingly, (the vignetting isnt that bad anyway as i said before i've seen worse out of tamron ef lenses)
> 2) make it mirrorless problem solved



APS-H mirrorless 
22mp
10fps
takes EF and EF-S lens
light weight and compact

- that would put the cat amongst the pidgeons


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## wickidwombat (Feb 15, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > i think you missed the point
> ...



you've been reading my mind again


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## AvTvM (Feb 15, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > i think you missed the point
> ...



I agree on that one! But I am willing to bet that Canon's mirrorless line will have the same shitty small sensor format of the G1X ... http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canong1x/images/Sensorsizes.png ... and it will be consumer-oriented, castrated bodies ... along the lines of NEX-3, NEX 5 and most of the mFT Pannies and Olys.


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## marekjoz (Feb 15, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > wickidwombat said:
> ...



The whole sh...y line except one model being able to compete with Leica

+No AA filter
+Higher fps (no mirror)
EF, EF-S enabled


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Feb 15, 2012)

This is CR0. The 7D was made precisely as the first model to go head-to-head with the Nikon equivalent, previously their models were slotted in between the other brand's models. Leaving that price segment to the D300 successor doesn't make marketing sense. If anything, it's the 60D line that needs to be revamped or eliminated, since it is silly to have 3 Rebel-class croppers (xxxxD/xxxD/xxD) in the lineup (if we go by the conventional wisdom that the 60D is indeed nothing more than a "super Rebel").


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## marekjoz (Feb 15, 2012)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> This is CR0. The 7D was made precisely as the first model to go head-to-head with the Nikon equivalent, previously their models were slotted in between the other brand's models. Leaving that price segment to the D300 successor doesn't make marketing sense. If anything, it's the 60D line that needs to be revamped or eliminated, since it is silly to have 3 Rebel-class croppers (xxxxD/xxxD/xxD) in the lineup (if we go by the conventional wisdom that the 60D is indeed nothing more than a "super Rebel").



They maybe found out that xD should be preserved for FF bodies only? So they would degrade all line down making 7d successor someting like 70d? But wait a second, what will they do if after 90d there's no place for next model? 91d, 90d mark2?


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## smirkypants (Feb 15, 2012)

Given the way the 7D has stomped the D300 and the D300s, you have got to think that Nikon will be coming full bore with with D400 just the way they came with guns blazing on the D800. I'm really curious to see what they offer. I'm betting it will be good so Canon you know has to plan a good response.

Credibility I give to this CR1 rumor? Probability <1%.


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## AvTvM (Feb 15, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> Given the way the 7D has stomped the D300 and the D300s, you have got to think that Nikon will be coming full bore with with D400 just the way they came with guns blazing on the D800. I'm really curious to see what they offer. I'm betting it will be good so Canon you know has to plan a good response.
> 
> Credibility I give to this CR1 rumor? Probability <1%.



exactly the way I see it too! Really hope the D400 will come and be excellent, so Canon won't get by with a minimalist small upgrade to the 7D.


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## CatfishSoupFTW (Feb 15, 2012)

oh man oh man.. if they do a 5DX and 5DmrkIII to replace the 7D? there are so many speculations i just dont know. i cannot wait for this year!!! I MUST BUY A NEW DSLR !


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## AprilForever (Feb 15, 2012)

aj1575 said:


> My two cents on this. The 7D is really a little bit odd; if one digit (xD) canons are for the pros, then the 7D was a bit weak. On the other hand there are are 3 consumer bodies (xxxxD, xxxD, xxD). This lineup somehow makes sense, just that the 7D is not really pro-grade.
> 
> *This is how I see the future lineup from Canon:* The 1Dx is for sport and wildlife shooters (high speed with 12fps, high ISO up to 200k). Then there will be the 5DmkIII, it looks at the moment that it won't compete with the D800, but I can see where it could be placed. the 5D will be for photojournalists who also like to make movies. The 5D is smaller more mobile package then the 1D, emphasis will be on good high ISO (low light ability, and video)
> But there is somethin missing in the pro sector, and this is the landscape shooters. And here could the often rumored 3D fit in, which will be aimed at the D800. A camera with high resolution (40+MP) but a slower speed.
> ...



Why do you think the 1Dx would work for wildlife shooters?


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## briansquibb (Feb 15, 2012)

AprilForever said:


> Why do you think the 1Dx would work for wildlife shooters?



Depends on the size of the wildlife surely?

Large wildife would be fantastic

Loss of crop is one reason why the 1D4 was popular with BIF shooters and why they howled at the 1DX as a replacement


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## Michael7 (Mar 6, 2012)

The 7D is a great camera in which Canon made one, horrible mistake: 18mp in a crop sensor. Too much. I'd love to see the 70D or 7D II with dual SD/CF, same build, micro adjust at both ends of the lens, and a 14mp or 12mp sensor. I'm just not getting the same sharpness I got from my 40D and 50D when it comes to wildlife. The pixel level IQ is "off", IHMO. I shoot RAW, and I have no interest in jpeg wizardry at high ISO's. That is meaningless. We need to see real improvement from unprocessed RAWS at ISO 100.


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## smirkypants (Mar 8, 2012)

Michael7 said:


> The 7D is a great camera in which Canon made one, horrible mistake: 18mp in a crop sensor. Too much. I'd love to see the 70D or 7D II with dual SD/CF, same build, micro adjust at both ends of the lens, and a 14mp or 12mp sensor. I'm just not getting the same sharpness I got from my 40D and 50D when it comes to wildlife. The pixel level IQ is "off", IHMO. I shoot RAW, and I have no interest in jpeg wizardry at high ISO's. That is meaningless. We need to see real improvement from unprocessed RAWS at ISO 100.


The 7D sensor is ancient. The 7D2's sensor will be to the 7D what the 5D3's sensor is to the 5D2's. It's will be a massive improvement in dynamic range, noise and perceived sharpness as well. 

Sensor tech is moving quickly. Sigma's Foveon X3 sensor is built with layers representing red, green and blue. You could have a cropped sensor collecting three times as much information and destroying the limitations of current sensors and certainly the abilities of your 40D.


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## Cornell (Mar 26, 2012)

Clearly the 60D is priced too closely to the T3i. Over the years, Canon has effectively narrowed the price range between the xxD and the Digital Rebel. When I bought my 20D, the price of the 20D was $600 (US) more than the Rebel XT. There is now only a $150 (US) difference between the 60D and the Rebel T3i. As pointed out by the article “No 7D Mark II”, the 60D is now viewed as a Super Rebel. 

In order for the 70D to move up, it would need to have enough advantages over the top-of-the-line Digital-Rebel to set it apart. This would be expected to result in an increase in price, of course. So far, so good. 

The question is whether eliminating 7D and having the 70D being in the previous xxD niche – now occupied by the 7D – would be a help or a hindrance; that is, whether a higher-priced xxD would be considered to be a top-of-the line DSLR or an overpriced Super Rebel. If it’s the latter, the xxDs could wind up being viewed as another Edsel. (For the uninitiated, the Edsel was a very good car; but, consumers viewed it as overpriced and did not buy it in sufficient numbers, thereby causing the Ford to close down the line after 3 years.) It might be better for Canon to eliminate the top-of-the line Digital Rebel so that there would be more of a price spread between the Digital Rebel and the xxD. This would return the Digital Rebel to it original purpose as a consumer / entry-level DSLR, thereby emphasizing the difference between the Digital Rebel and the xxD.


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## itsnotmeyouknow (Mar 26, 2012)

Michael7 said:


> The 7D is a great camera in which Canon made one, horrible mistake: 18mp in a crop sensor. Too much. I'd love to see the 70D or 7D II with dual SD/CF, same build, micro adjust at both ends of the lens, and a 14mp or 12mp sensor. I'm just not getting the same sharpness I got from my 40D and 50D when it comes to wildlife. The pixel level IQ is "off", IHMO. I shoot RAW, and I have no interest in jpeg wizardry at high ISO's. That is meaningless. We need to see real improvement from unprocessed RAWS at ISO 100.



A lot of this makes lsense. However who apart from you sees unprocessed RAW? They have to be processed to be used. Pixel Peeping is another thing that makes me go "uh?!!!" . The best camera is always the one that gets you the best final image from the appropriate media at the appropriate viewing distance. The ingredients have to be right of course, but to get a camera at a certain pricepoint to make it commercially viable, compromises have to be made. If Canon said to the market: We're going to make the new 70D a 10 megapixel camera, but those megapixel are gonna be great" the market would laugh tem out of the room. It might be ideal for you, but it would be marketing suicide


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## GeorgieGirl (Mar 27, 2012)

The 7D is an amazing camera as it is. When going to its MP count it takes patience as it is less forgiving and forces you to do better. Period.

Topping the 7D has just occurred with the 5D Mark III as its FF companion...IMHO. 

I am in heaven and will never need another body as long as I have these two far as I can tell. 

What I am ready for are those lens specs like the new 24-70II with the cramped side by side straight across black and blue line pairs. Lenses like that will keep me buying new for a long time.


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## marcust (Mar 27, 2012)

Any replacement for the 7D is going to add around 1K to the price. Me thinks that is canon's real goal here with these new bodies. Seperate the pro models from the entry/consumer models.
The Rebel line will never go away, it put Canon on top of the DSLR market. BUT,
They dont want to see a repeat of what happened with the 7D, getting in the hands of people that didnt know the difference between focal lenght or f-stop. (mines soft, mines broke, mines blah,blah,blah.) I'm sure there is a new 1.6 cropper coming, but it wont be for the casual person, hence the price point in the high two grand range, maybe a tad over three K. Whatever model number they put on it, I'm sure it will be a worthy successor to the 7D.


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## Gcon (Mar 27, 2012)

For all those 7D fanboys who got all up in my grill earlier in this thread because I said the 7D noise is horrible compared to the 5DII (and then made themselves feel better by -rep'ing me), I wasn't talking out my backside.

You can clearly see here:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-DSLR-Camera-Review.aspx

Click on the ISO100's and you'll see the difference. That the 7D has quite a fair bit of noise, even at base ISO100. Look at all those grey areas - they all look pretty grainy to me. No click on 5DMarkII - much cleaner. That was readily apparent to me in real world tests with the naked eye, well before I saw this link.

Seriously - being objective and telling a 7D owner that their image sensor is inferior to a full frame is like telling a religious zealot in a strange cult that their God doesn't exist. Some people seriously need to get over themselves and realize it's just a camera, and not an extension of their ego.

If there is a 7D mark II, then hopefully they take a leaf out of the D800's book - Nikon managed to do some really good work at high pixel densities, with a lot less noise than that at base ISO.


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## takoman46 (Mar 27, 2012)

Gcon said:


> For all those 7D fanboys who got all up in my grill earlier in this thread because I said the 7D noise is horrible compared to the 5DII (and then made themselves feel better by -rep'ing me), I wasn't talking out my backside.
> 
> You can clearly see here:
> http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-DSLR-Camera-Review.aspx
> ...



Don't take it personally, fanboys will be fanboys. Also, don't worry I'd bet that everyone who gave you grief over a previous comment about the 7D vs. 5DmkII has probably never used a 5DmkII lol. I had a 7D and sold it because it couldn't hang with the IQ and ISO performance of my 5DmkII. The only thing the 7D had was a better AF system and faster continuous shooting. So yes, I agree with you completely that the 5DmkII was an older camera than the 7D but still smoked the 7D when it came to producing professional images. Don't get me wrong, the 7D could produce acceptable images for professional applications; but it wasn't better than a 5DmkII .


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## nicku (Mar 27, 2012)

Never a 7D sensor will beat 5D2. but 7D is in a other class ( inferior class) . is just like comparing a standard compact car with a upper class sedan. always the sedan will have (in standard) more gadgets and more potent engine.

Ok, back to the topic....

I believe the 7D2 will bring more feature and improved IQ; but i think will ad another 1K to the price. 7D series WILL CONTINUE and will have his well known place as a 1DX backup.


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## marekjoz (Mar 27, 2012)

I think there will be some continuation - birders need it. It might get complicated if Canon responses to d800 in terms of MPs. 45MP FF would give some 17MP in APS-C and 28MP in APS-H in crop.


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## gecko (Mar 27, 2012)

takoman46 said:


> Gcon said:
> 
> 
> > For all those 7D fanboys who got all up in my grill earlier in this thread because I said the 7D noise is horrible compared to the 5DII (and then made themselves feel better by -rep'ing me), I wasn't talking out my backside.
> ...



All spot on.

But I've been pretty happy with my 7D anyway - got a front cover wilderness calender with it......in the very conditions that the 7D most sucks at; low light, long exposure, dark areas. Horrible chroma noise in the shadows requiring a shed load of NR, which really smeared the detail. 

Technically an awful photo, significantly due to the 7D's shortcomings.......but it looked great.


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## RLPhoto (Mar 27, 2012)

I think canon should revamp the eos line like this. 

1Dx - flagship pro level awesomeness body. full frame. 
5d3 - The all rounder camera with sweet resolution and decent fps. Full frame. 
7D2 - high speed photojournalist/sport camera for less $. APS-H sensor, high fps. 
70D - where the 7D really should have been. New aps-c sensor with high FPS. 
Rebel - consumer grade ease of use and good IQ and a reasonable price. 

Most of this is just a pipe dream though.


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## zim (Mar 27, 2012)

Here’s my 2p worth’s prediction…… the replacement for the 7D, whatever it’s nomenclature will have f8 max app focusing.


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## peederj (Mar 27, 2012)

I want an APS-C version of the 5D3 for reach purposes. To make my lens collection more versatile without sacrificing anything else. And I do think if 5D3 sales are good we'll be offered one.

I also want a T4i that at least matches the feature sets (and video detail!) of the mirrorless cameras in a small form factor so I don't feel jealous and want to buy adapters for my EF glass.

These are obvious desires I would think would form the base minimum a competent company would plan and deliver.


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## aslw26 (Mar 27, 2012)

[Prediction 1]

Canon said that it would never 'leave' the APS-H standard, with the merger of lines between 1Ds and 1D forming the 1DX, there would be no more APS-H sensor for the line. Where could the APS-H sensor go to? I think the next 7D. 

[Prediction 2]

It wouldn't be a high-resolution sensor. If Canon insists it for the photojournalists/ sports photographer, than a huge megapixel count would cause it to need more processing and would in turn bring lesser burst rate (unless it has a super crazy processor). Lesser burst rate won't be good for such photographers right? 

*These are just predictions of my wild brain.*


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## darrellrhodesmiller (Mar 27, 2012)

i just dont see it.. 
here's how i see the future canon lineup

1DX
5DmkIII
maybe a cheaper full frame 
70D
Rebel

60D and 7D are too close.. too many features are the same.. and the price difference isnt enough.. features just arent different enough.. 

i'm really looking forward to seeing how canon handles mirrorless. thats really what i'm looking forward to
D


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## marekjoz (Mar 27, 2012)

darrellrhodesmiller said:


> i just dont see it..
> here's how i see the future canon lineup
> 
> 1DX
> ...



There must be either a top line aps-c or mirrorless using ef-s


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## darrellrhodesmiller (Mar 27, 2012)

why couldnt the 70D fit in as top of the line?


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## dooboo (Mar 27, 2012)

Canon maybe revamping their product line, which started with 1 series with 1DX.

with 5D3 at different price points, Canon maybe thinking something totally different with 7 series bodies.

Just because Canon has been making certain body, doesn't mean they are going to continue down that path. 

Maybe 5D3e for dumbed down FF at lower price point?

Maybe move the 7 series line to the lower cost FF. Maybe Canon will decide to skip a generation on making this switch then come back with FF body transformation. Maybe...

This way, all the xD series will be mostly FF, xxD will be semi-pro APS-c body, then Rebel TXi will be consumer line. I know I think way it makes sense to me. 

I think Canon is going thru some transformation regarding product portfolio...and they are taking a top down approach, IMHO


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## unfocused (Mar 27, 2012)

darrellrhodesmiller said:


> why couldnt the 70D fit in as top of the line?



Because the 7D is already the top of the line.


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## dawgfanjeff (Mar 27, 2012)

As a non-pro, but discriminating 7D shooter that upgraded from Rebel world when it came out, I am thrilled with my 7D, but I am aware of its limitations. The AF alone made that a no-brainer. I have way too many kid/dog/sports shots that would be usable if not for missed focus. All the other 7D stuff was icing on the cake. That said, I unfortunately cannot claim noticeably better IQ of equally focused shots. I hate noise, I really do, but have come to live with it rather than have a nice clean image of a blurry dog jumping for a tennis ball.
This makes the 5DIII potentially the perfect upgrade for me. I'd already be a 5DII shooter it not for the AF. 
Seems like a 7DII that emphasized IQ, at same MP, $1k cheaper than the MKIII, they'd have a hard time keeping then stocked.


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## AnselA (Mar 27, 2012)

There is plenty of pricing and design room for a 7D Mark II. It would stay as the top prosumer camera. There are features that would make it attractive for action shooters that could be added w/out damaging any of the DSLR line: better low light performance (less noise), improved IQ, 61 AF metering system, match the 5D Mark III video, and a faster focusing system. I would be queued up right away at $1,600.


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## takoman46 (Mar 27, 2012)

AnselA said:


> There is plenty of pricing and design room for a 7D Mark II. It would stay as the top prosumer camera. There are features that would make it attractive for action shooters that could be added w/out damaging any of the DSLR line: better low light performance (less noise), improved IQ, 61 AF metering system, match the 5D Mark III video, and a faster focusing system. I would be queued up right away at $1,600.



That sounds like way too many features to fit a $1600 price point. I think if they were to make a detuned aps-c version of the 5DmkIII it would have to be at least $2500. Also, with all those features and a $1600 price tag, don't you think that would hurt sales of 5DmkIII's and even 1DX's? There would be a ton of people choosing the 7D over a 5 or 1 series because they believe it's the better bang for your buck.


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## AnselA (Mar 27, 2012)

I don't think so b/c the sensor would still be APC in my scenario and besides many of the features on this ff cameras will migrate down even to the Rebels. Why not start with the next level down camera. Those that want ff will not compromise but I am more interested in keeping the reach I have but adding especially better low light and IQ performance.


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## unfocused (Mar 27, 2012)

takoman46 said:


> AnselA said:
> 
> 
> > There is plenty of pricing and design room for a 7D Mark II. It would stay as the top prosumer camera. There are features that would make it attractive for action shooters that could be added w/out damaging any of the DSLR line: better low light performance (less noise), improved IQ, 61 AF metering system, match the 5D Mark III video, and a faster focusing system. I would be queued up right away at $1,600.
> ...



$1,600 is probably too aggressive, but I wouldn't be surprised to see something around $1,800-$2,000. Not necessarily with quite those specs, but some incremental improvements over the current model with most of the emphasis placed on sensor improvements. 

As far as hurting sales of the 5DIII or 1Dx, Canon doesn't seem to be overly concerned about cutting into sales of one model with another. They would have never released the 5DIII with the features it has if they were worried about protecting the 1Dx. And, look at the clustering of Rebels and the 60D – barely any differentiation between those models. 

In the current competitive marketplace, making sure they have an model that can retain existing customers and draw new customers from other brands seems to be taking precedence over protecting one model over another.


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## smirkypants (Mar 27, 2012)

Mentioned this elsewhere but it belongs more here. Remember, the DX mode of the D800 is a 16MP 1.5 crop mode, and by all accounts the image quality is pretty good. If we can get that in a 7D2 I know I'd be pretty happy... if it could do 8FPS and bump up the MP to 18.

It does seem the winds of change are running against crop sensors now, though...


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## Marsu42 (Mar 27, 2012)

takoman46 said:


> That sounds like way too many features to fit a $1600 price point. I think if they were to make a detuned aps-c version of the 5DmkIII it would have to be at least $2500. Also, with all those features and a $1600 price tag, don't you think that would hurt sales of 5DmkIII's and even 1DX's?



If the s* hits the fan with Nikon and Sony full frame competition, Canon might do unexpected things to keep people on their platform, continue to have large production quantities that dampen costs and keep selling lenses and other equipment. They can sell a budget ff body and then make money selling the 24-70ii and the 600rt... and looking at Canon's business results, there seems to be some air left in their current price tags.


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## awinphoto (Mar 27, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> takoman46 said:
> 
> 
> > That sounds like way too many features to fit a $1600 price point. I think if they were to make a detuned aps-c version of the 5DmkIII it would have to be at least $2500. Also, with all those features and a $1600 price tag, don't you think that would hurt sales of 5DmkIII's and even 1DX's?
> ...



With the price increase of the 5d3 and the lowering in price of the 5d2, I could see a 7d2 coming in around 1800-2000... Nikon isn't going to stop producing the D300-400 line/series/whatever and Canon will have to compete for this market of customers... I could see them doing a 19-20MP sensor... clean ISO's through 3200-6400 maybe expanded up to 25k-52k. HDR, refined AF, new video compression, heck maybe even an innovative new feature or two... see how it fairs... articulated magnesium screen? Canon isn't about losing model classes or revenue by just having an xxd camera series and a $3500 5d3.


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## unfocused (Mar 27, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> Mentioned this elsewhere but it belongs more here. Remember, the DX mode of the D800 is a 16MP 1.5 crop mode, and by all accounts the image quality is pretty good. If we can get that in a 7D2 I know I'd be pretty happy... if it could do 8FPS and bump up the MP to 18.
> 
> It does seem the winds of change are running against crop sensors now, though...



I think crop sensors will be around for quite some time. 

Convergence is happening of course – The incremental quality between full frame and APS-C is narrowing and I suspect that the incremental cost of producing APS-C and full frame is also narrowing. Still, there remains a difference and there probably will be one for quite some time. For the foreseeable future, I imagine it will remain cheaper to produce an APS-C sensor and the quality of the full frame sensor will continue to be slightly better. Just a matter of degrees. 

In addition, I think the crop advantages of the APS-C sensor will remain hard to replicate in a full frame for quite some time. Cropping from a full frame is a compromise and at this point, not a very convenient one. There is no reason why the two cameras won't continue to co-exist for quite some time. Indeed, from the manufacturers' standpoint, they probably prefer to have both formats.


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## marcust (Mar 28, 2012)

No video
No pop up flash
Dual card slots
Improve ISO noise
Increase shutter high speed to the high teens, low twenty's
Keep the MP count around 16 or 18
Eliminate the green box, Av,Tv,M,C1,C2,C3 only
Street price 3 k..


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## x-vision (Mar 28, 2012)

darrellrhodesmiller said:


> i just dont see it..
> here's how i see the future canon lineup
> 
> 1DX
> ...



My thoughts exactly. 

A mirrorless camera is a posibility too.


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## AvTvM (Mar 28, 2012)

I am szure there will be a 7D II ... and it will be a Canon-typical evolutionary, small step.

* APS-C, crop 1,6x - what else ... they still want to sell their higher end EF-S lenses, those are not puirhcased by typical rebel owners! 
* new sensor, 21 MP and +1 stop better IQ in higher ISOs, hopefully also at base ISO 100 
* same 8 fps .. plenty enough, if faster is required -> go buy 1D X !
* 61 point AF and metering module (as in 5D III = not as good as in 1D X) 
* 2x DiGIC V .. .also needed for video crap
* fully articulated display 
* dual card slots CF + SD
* same pop-up flash, including master trigger capability
* will work with new radio flash technology (like 5D III and 1D X .. so without 1 stop loss in X-sync, etc.]
* improved Auto ISO plus other firmware stuff
* MSRP USD 1899 / EURO 1999 

and no 70D ... place taken over by better Rebel/650D


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## briansquibb (Mar 28, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> and no 70D ... place taken over by better Rebel/650D



At 3.5 fps? - hardly likely as that would also mean the end of the xxD line


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## AvTvM (Mar 28, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > and no 70D ... place taken over by better Rebel/650D
> ...



actually, I don't care, what they call the 7D successor ... 7D II or 70D ... as long as it has all the 7D features (incl. weatherseals) plus the new specs I mentioned above.


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## marekjoz (Mar 28, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> I am szure there will be a 7D II ... and it will be a Canon-typical evolutionary, small step.
> 
> * APS-C, crop 1,6x - what else ... they still want to sell their higher end EF-S lenses, those are not puirhcased by typical rebel owners!
> * new sensor, 21 MP and +1 stop better IQ in higher ISOs, hopefully also at base ISO 100
> ...



Agree except 21MP. I'd rather see same 18MP but +1, 1.5 ISO step.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 29, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> and no 70D ... place taken over by better Rebel/650D


I'm sure there will be a another xxd if there is a xxxd update - seems more likely they reserve the xd line for full frame and drop the 7d2.


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