# Phottix Odin: Inaccuate high-ISO metering problem



## V8Beast (Oct 26, 2012)

I've been proudly pimpin' my ancient 550EXs for quite some time now, and decided to step up from infrared to a set of Phottix Odins. With my 5D3 in Av mode, I've noticed that the flash exposure is pretty accurate and consistent up to ISO 400, but drop off a table after that. From ISO 800 and up, it seems like the Odin's don't "meter down" the flash exposure enough, and the result is way too much light output. Either that, or the Odins don't recognize that the ISO has been increased. 

Here are some sample shots with the flashes set to the left and right of the subject. To keep the ambient light levels consistent, the aperture was kept at f/4, but the shutter speed varied from 1 second to 1/125 second.

ISO 100






ISO 200





ISO 400





ISO 800





ISO 1600





ISO 3200





ISO 6400





ISO 12,800






Interestingly, the ETTL flash metering is much more accurate with the camera in manual mode. To make sure the ambient light in the room didn't affect the exposure, these shots were taken at f/8 and a 1/90 shutter speed. 

ISO 100





ISO 200





ISO 400





ISO 800





ISO 1600





ISO 3200





ISO 6400





ISO 12,800






Do the Odins just not like working in Av mode, or maybe it's just a compatibility issue with the 550EX's?


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## wickidwombat (Oct 26, 2012)

hmmm truth be told i've never used my odins in AV since i only shoot in manual these days
also I have only used them on 580 ex ii flashes so not sure about the 550's can you try them on a 580 to see if its the same issue?


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## V8Beast (Oct 26, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> hmmm truth be told i've never used my odins in AV since i only shoot in manual these days
> also I have only used them on 580 ex ii flashes so not sure about the 550's can you try them on a 580 to see if its the same issue?



That thought has crossed my mind. My neighbor has a 580EXII, so I'll give that a shot. Even if that cures the issue, I'd be tempted to return the Odins and just upgrade to the 600EXs. Looks like used 580EXII's are going for $350 USD on ebay, so once factoring the cost of the Odins, the 600EXs aren't that much more money. Damn, looks like Canon might gouge me again  Or I can just shoot in Manual


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## Ew (Oct 26, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> I've been proudly pimpin' my ancient 550EXs for quite some time now, and decided to step up from infrared to a set of Phottix Odins. With my 5D3 in Av mode, I've noticed that the flash exposure is pretty accurate and consistent up to ISO 400, but drop off a table after that. From ISO 800 and up, it seems like the Odin's don't "meter down" the flash exposure enough, and the result is way too much light output. Either that, or the Odins don't recognize that the ISO has been increased.
> 
> Here are some sample shots with the flashes set to the left and right of the subject. To keep the ambient light levels consistent, the aperture was kept at f/4, but the shutter speed varied from 1 second to 1/125 second.
> 
> ...



I've experienxed the same behavior w AV - but 90% of the time I'm in M on camera, so I can't say I've suffered.

Otherwise, the odins are great. Esp wben adding non ttl units tk the mix. alot of control available here.


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## AdamJ (Oct 26, 2012)

Is it possible that at the higher ISO settings, the flashes were already down to their minimum power and had nowhere further to go? I'm just looking at the closeness of the shot, although I obviously don't know how far away the flashes were.


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## risc32 (Oct 26, 2012)

i'm not sure i understand your testing method, but it sure looks like an issue. is this just in AV mode, or any of the auto metering modes?


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## bbasiaga (Oct 26, 2012)

Remember that when using flash in Av mode, the camera sets teh shutter speed to properly expose the BACKGROUND. I believe it assumes there is little to no impact of the flash on the background. That means in addition to changing the flash power, it is also adjusting the shutter speed to compensate for your ISO changes. I don't have software on this computer that can read the exif, but check your shutter speeds. It may be a case that the scene has fooled the metering calculation, and some of the extra light is due to too much ambient being added to the flash exposure by a slower than appropriate shutter. 

I, personally, have never had as much luck with ETTL in Av or Tv mode as I have in manual. In manual, the camera can only control one vairable, and it seems to have a much easier time doing that. I set the aperture for DOF, shutter to either kill ambient or balance the flash with ambient, and the camera takes care of the flash power to expose the target. 

-Brian


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## V8Beast (Oct 26, 2012)

AdamJ said:


> Is it possible that at the higher ISO settings, the flashes were already down to their minimum power and had nowhere further to go? I'm just looking at the closeness of the shot, although I obviously don't know how far away the flashes were.



That's a pretty good theory. The flashes weren't positioned very far back, but they shouldn't have been close to minimum output power, either. Here's what the same shot, but with no flash. 






In essence, the test images were set to a neutral exposure in Av mode, and the flashes just added accent lighting, so they weren't putting out much light at all. I use this same technique in the field quite often, although on much larger subjects. Part of the problem here is that a lot of the light from the flashes spilled onto the background since the subject is so small. 

Nevertheless, it's kind of a stupid test anyway, since I almost never shoot above ISO 1600 in Av mode. I'll be testing the Odins out on a real shoot tomorrow anyway, so how they perform in the field - a not some silly test in my house - is all that matters.


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## V8Beast (Oct 26, 2012)

risc32 said:


> i'm not sure i understand your testing method, but it sure looks like an issue. is this just in AV mode, or any of the auto metering modes?



Testing method is simply to simulate how I shoot on real assignments: balancing ambient light and flash output. Since most of what I shoot is in natural light, the flashes are used primarily for accent lighting. These images are probably 70-80 percent natural light, and only 20-30 percent flash. 





















Didn't bother testing in Auto mode since I never use it.


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## V8Beast (Oct 26, 2012)

bbasiaga said:


> Remember that when using flash in Av mode, the camera sets teh shutter speed to properly expose the BACKGROUND. I believe it assumes there is little to no impact of the flash on the background. That means in addition to changing the flash power, it is also adjusting the shutter speed to compensate for your ISO changes. I don't have software on this computer that can read the exif, but check your shutter speeds. It may be a case that the scene has fooled the metering calculation, and some of the extra light is due to too much ambient being added to the flash exposure by a slower than appropriate shutter.



If the camera is in Av mode, and all I do is turn on the flash, it will usually knock down shutter speed by one stop. For example, if f/8 at 1/15 nets a neutral exposure, turning on the flash will change the shutter speed to 1/30. I'm constantly adjusting the ambient anyway with the exposure compensation dial in Av mode, so shooting in manual instead of Av wouldn't be a big deal. That said, the shutter speed should not have affected the overall exposure in these test shots anyway. A lot of flash output did spill onto the background, but even the boxes are way overexposed at the higher ISO values. 

I just wanted to find out if this is typical with the Odins, or if something was peculiar with my setup. I suppose its still worth trying them out on some 580EXII's just to see if there's a difference.


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## risc32 (Oct 26, 2012)

I've got a wedding gig tomorrow, and it'll be my first real test with the Odins. it'll be a "hot" test. hope it doesn't screw up as i'm the lone shooter, but i'm usually ready for stuff not to work. BTW- v8beast, i love your shots that's you've posted on this site. very nice work. all of it.


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## Viggo (Oct 26, 2012)

Copy the settings from the overexposed in M mode and Odin in m to, and set it to the lowest poweroutput, follow those steps back to the correct setting and see if you get the same result. If you do, the scene was just overlit and everything works. 

I would HIGHLY recommend the method I use;

Camera to m and sync speed and desired aperture, if it's large start at iso 100. If the ambient is too high or too low adjust aperture and or iso. I like my backgrounds, usually, at least 1,5 stops under my key, normally my flashes. 

When you have the background lit the way you want, fire up the Odin and set it to M also, simply dial up or down so your subject is lit the way you want.

If you want even less dof, use an ND filter.

If you use more than one flash turn them all off, turn one on and a adjust, turn it off again and adjust the next. Then if they mix to high in power you only need a very slight adjustment.


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## steen-ag (Oct 26, 2012)

Have a question

1. Did you put you flash/camera in Highsync
2. Have you set Flashsynctime to Auto
if not You will never get a shutterspeed less than 1/200 sek. and the you will get overexposed pictures.


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## chriswatters (Oct 26, 2012)

It would appear to me that you are getting the correct results. Unless you change something other than just ISO, it is extremely unlikely that a speed light can possibly expose all those shots correctly. 

The EX580 II has a minimum power output of 1/128th of its full power. (I don't know what the minimum power output ratio of the EX550 is, but I would be suprised if it was significantly wider than the EX580 II) The only way that a SpeedLight would be able to correctly expose each of those ISO settings is if the shot at ISO 100 required full power to correctly expose, only then would the 12800 ISO shot be correctly exposed at the minimum flash strength of 1/128th power.

I expect that in the situation of your first set of test shots, the flash is hitting is minumum power output limit at around ISO 400. Because the flash cannot fire any weaker than that, any shot with a higher ISO will be over exposed. 

With your second set of test, you decrease the amount of light that your camera could see by changing the aperature. With a 2 stop change in apperature you see that shots begin appear over exposed at an ISO 2 stops higher. Compare ISO 800<->3200, 1600<->6400, 3200<->12800 and notice how similar they are.

You can confirm this by testing with a smaller aperature. If you use a small enough aperature, your high ISO shots should be correctly exposed, but your low ISO shots will likely be underexposed. If you are still in doubt, set the flash at its minimum power and find out what ISO setting correctly exposes that flash power.


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## V8Beast (Oct 26, 2012)

steen-ag said:


> Have a question
> 
> 1. Did you put you flash/camera in Highsync



No. Shutter speeds in all shots were 1/90 or slower, so there was no need for high-speed sync. 



> 2. Have you set Flashsynctime to Auto
> if not You will never get a shutterspeed less than 1/200 sek. and the you will get overexposed pictures.



What's Flashsynctime? As long as the shutter speed is faster than the sync speed, I don't see how it would affect flash exposure.


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## V8Beast (Oct 26, 2012)

Update: AdamJ and chriswatters were spot on. 

Keeping the aperture and shutter values the same as before in Av mode, I turned the flashes to 1/128 power in manual mode, and like Adam and Chris suspected, the image was still overexposed at ISO 800. Now that my pea brain realized what was going on, I turned off one of the lights, and doubled the distance of the remaining light from the subject. This allowed the Odins to achieve the correct exposure to ISO 3200. 

More boring tests:

Keeping the Odins in TTL mode and the camera in Av mode, but stopping the aperture down and/or decreasing the ISO, resulted in very accurate flash metering. In other words, shooting in real world conditions instead of some bogus set of test conditions that would never be encountered in the field, allows the Odins to function as they should. Man, I'm such an idiot ;D

The really dumb thing is that I never shoot wide open, and in the rare instance that I'm at ISO 800 or higher - factors that contributed to this pseudo problem - it's because I'm in a dark environment that actually warrants it, not just for the sake of testing. 

So I've concluded that the Odins work great, as long as the user isn't an idiot ;D


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## risc32 (Oct 31, 2012)

Glad to hear there isn't a bug, and that you figured it out. My first real outing last saturday at a wedding shoot went well. At first it didn't fire and i was thinking about going to plan b. the wedding party was very ready to get to the reception, but i did another once over the settings and noticed that i must have bumped a slider on the receiver while mounting it on a light stand. i either knocked it to the wrong group, or channel, can't recall, but once corrected it worked perfectly. all formals after the ceremony done and in my car in about 20mins. yeah, i'm not to pleased with the lack of time. that and the fact i had two photographer friends of the bride/groom there as guests over my shoulder at times, but that's another story...


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## V8Beast (Oct 31, 2012)

Just finished my first real gig with the Odins, and let's just say these suckers get the job done. 


























It's sooooo liberating not having to deal with the stupid line of sight nonsense anymore, and it allows positioning and angling the flashes in ways that just aren't possible otherwise. Why didn't I buy these things sooner ;D? Being able to control power output right from the camera saves ton of time as well. Thank goodness I didn't have to get gouged by Canon for a set of 600EXs ;D


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## risc32 (Nov 1, 2012)

couldn't agree more. nice shots, you have a good handle on all that chrome and your shots always have a certain look to them that i think is just awesome. Plus i see you in the center of that wheel.


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## wickidwombat (Nov 1, 2012)

glad they are working out for you, pics look fantastic as usual!
580 exii plus the odin still work out cheaper than the 600 and 
the odins will also work with studio strobes


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## V8Beast (Nov 1, 2012)

Thanks for the kind words, fellas.

wombat, how well do the Odins interface with studio lights? I like the idea of controlling the power from the transmitter instead of having to walk over to the lights every time I want to adjust the power. That's one of the main reasons I picked them up, since I'm going to have to get some monolights sooner or later. 

The Speedlites work great for run-and-gun shots like the ones posted above, but when attempting to light up the entire car (first shot), I had to turn the ISO up more than I wanted to for the desired results. For certain occaisions, I'd like a broader beam of light than what the Speedlites offer. With large subjects, there isn't much margin for error in this regard with the Speedlites.


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## wickidwombat (Nov 6, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> Thanks for the kind words, fellas.
> 
> wombat, how well do the Odins interface with studio lights? I like the idea of controlling the power from the transmitter instead of having to walk over to the lights every time I want to adjust the power. That's one of the main reasons I picked them up, since I'm going to have to get some monolights sooner or later.
> 
> The Speedlites work great for run-and-gun shots like the ones posted above, but when attempting to light up the entire car (first shot), I had to turn the ISO up more than I wanted to for the desired results. For certain occaisions, I'd like a broader beam of light than what the Speedlites offer. With large subjects, there isn't much margin for error in this regard with the Speedlites.



the odins dont control the studio light power  they are pure manual
at least I dont think they do since they plug into the lights via a 3.5mm cable
I dont think there will be any smarts going down the line

i'll typically mix them and set it all in manual like use speedlights for accent lights like a hair light with a snoot or background lights when I am using the elinchroms as main lights. I've always just adjusted the studio lights on the flash head as I assumed the odin wont control the power and since the power settings are very different between speedlights and elinchrom studio lights speedlights have 1/3rd stop increments as a function of a fraction of their full power where as elinchrom studio lights have 1/10th stop increments from their minimum output up to their maximum output

I know elinchrom have the high end skyports with power control from the transmitter which works really well and an elinchrom reciever can be used with speedlights but again in this case the speedlights are dumb and only the elinchrom light recieve the benefit of the radio controlled power adjustment


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## lucuias (Nov 6, 2012)

Odin is a superb ETTL wireless solution from portrait to wedding and events,it does had flaws when it 1st release,my 5Dmark III having overexposure issues when the flash head flip 180degree.But was fixed via firmware.
Nevertheless,I still had a couple of times miss connect issue between odin receiver and flash hot shoe.

Below were some of the shot using Phottix odin


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## V8Beast (Nov 6, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> the odins dont control the studio light power  they are pure manual
> at least I dont think they do since they plug into the lights via a 3.5mm cable
> I dont think there will be any smarts going down the line



Good to know. Some control of the studio lights is still better than no control  I doubt the 600EX would do much when it comes to controlling studio lights, either


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## jonathan7007 (Dec 12, 2012)

Re: Odin units and studio units
There are lots of situations where I might want lug the Norman gear to the shoot -- and then mix in a speedlite or two. For instance the speedlight at or near the camera could be the "fill-in" at a power setting below that of the key lights. (I know the Odin controller does not allow a "pass-through" speedlite on top) 

I read that if any of the speedlites ar set for ETTL there is a preflash. If the studio power packs are triggered by optical slaves that would be a problem. But perhaps the users here are suggesting buying a Strato or another Odin receiver for the power packs...

My studio units are older Norman packs like the 2000D and an 808.

This was the only thing making me hold back for more research on the Phottix set. I *do* wish there was a pass-through fitting, as I don't think my current bracket for events will allow the Odin controller to fit under the top shoe that can move relative to the camera for horiz-to-vert shift. Might have to go back to the older side mount style...

jonathan7007


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## lucuias (Dec 12, 2012)

Hi jonathan7007,
I have a solution for using Phottix odin while at the same time using another flash on body without using bracket .I did this myself for my wedding work.
1st ,get yourself a Nissin SC-01 Universal TTL cord http://www.nissindigital.com/SC-01.html
2nd, attach Nissin SC-01 Universal TTL cord on your body while phottix odin transmitter on the cord external hot shoe.
3rd, attach your flash light on phottix odin receiver.then attach it on the Nissin SC-01 universal TTL cord top shoue.
4th,keep the switch on Nissin SC-01 Universal TTL cord on EXT(external).








I hope this helps.I had been shooting a lot of wedding and event using this setup.It is always great to have on body flash as fill light while another off flash as key light/rim light.
















However,lately the Nissin SC-01 giving me connectivity issue between the cord and my camera hot shoe.


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## jonathan7007 (Dec 14, 2012)

Ronnie,
I love multiple light candids like those examples in your posts. Thank you for your experimentation and, especially, for sharing the rig. It sounds like the key element of the Nissan cord is a switch for external use. I will research this gear.Side brackets with posts as handles or mounting of flash heads used to be in lots of camera store bins as used. Sometimes at yard sales! That would work to hold the Odin controller.

Do you mix any Strato receivers into the Odin setup?

Is there a preflash that would cause any issue with old-style "generic" optical triggers placed on a studio-style power pack?

I used to do a lot of this with pure optical triggers for editorial work. Had a kit of spring clamps, threaded clamps, magic-arms, hand-driven lag screws with 1/4-20 tops, a real do-everything little case. Lots of duct-tape, of course. I plan to be doing this for events, weddings, this year. I already do this (multiple speedlites) for vacation rental/RE shooting.

At this point I am planning on using 550's instead of a jump to 600's. I do have one 580ex, a bunch of Vivitar 285s that I will swap for used 550's.

Again thanks for posting

jonathan7007


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## lucuias (Jan 14, 2013)

jonathan7007 said:


> Ronnie,
> I love multiple light candids like those examples in your posts. Thank you for your experimentation and, especially, for sharing the rig. It sounds like the key element of the Nissan cord is a switch for external use. I will research this gear.Side brackets with posts as handles or mounting of flash heads used to be in lots of camera store bins as used. Sometimes at yard sales! That would work to hold the Odin controller.
> 
> Do you mix any Strato receivers into the Odin setup?
> ...



Hi Jonathan,

I just slip the Odin controller in vest pocket.No I do not mix with Strato on my wedding work but I did once on Portrait shoot with my friend's Strato,it works just fine.
After owns odin,I didn't use pure optical triggers.Thus,no comment on that.

Here are another shot with this setup and it works just great


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## jonathan7007 (Jan 18, 2013)

Love it! That key-light-to-the-side look (with appropriate fill) is EXACTLY why I want that kind of rig. Now I see why the Odin controller was "loose" on its wire in the shot you posted earlier. Now all I need is a low-cost two-legged light stand to hold the high-key light at events! B&H carry those? Aaaah, shipping to Hawaii is too high...

I used to do this stuff with just optical and quick math (square and square root) reflexes. Too old now for those quick reflexes. <grin>.

jonathan7007


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## V8Beast (Feb 7, 2013)

More love for the Odins. Strongly back-lit subjects always threw the infrared Canon flash triggering off, but with the Odins, shooting straight into the sun is no problem.






This is far from a great shot, but I love the convenience of being able to adjust the backlight and fill in groups independently, right at the camera, without having to manually re-adjust the flashes. It's a great way to make an otherwise boring shot not quite as boring


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## jonathan7007 (Feb 10, 2013)

I love the tones created on the station wagon's left side because the darker reflection stops at the chrome trim line. Also no lightsource reflection on car side. Local airport, looks like. Borrow an old funky Cessna to see the styling overlaps? 

...just got my Odins. no chance to use yet. Might make my dirty pickup truck the first subject, or better yet convince my neighbor to take out his late forties International pickup. I expect that one reason you don't shoot in fields is the shadows of grass or other artifact of "nature".

Got one 550EX unit and will get back to adding more. Still a believer in putting the $$ saved (vs. 600's) into other gear.
jonathan7007


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## V8Beast (Feb 11, 2013)

The wagon was shot right outside a police station. I had the owner smoke the tires earlier in the afternoon, and the officers didn't even come out to say hello  It's definitely more an exception than the rule. 

It's easy enough to work around the reflections you'd get from shooting on grass or in a field, but my reason for not doing so is more simple. People drive cars on pavement, so I like to capture them in their natural environment. Of course, if the subject is a truck or off-road vehicle, it makes sense to shoot them off road.


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## jonathan7007 (Feb 11, 2013)

Yeah, I see the "context" choice. Makes sense. I was imagining more a *shadow* problem from vegetation because you often place lights low, but yes, there's the reflection issues caused whenever there's a shiny object in a shot... like a car!

This wagon looks like it's coiled for a leap. Lowered and all.

Your shots inspired me to hand my card to a guy driving a bright red, beautifully-restored Chevy 42 pickup -- bringing his greenwaste to the recycle operation here on our island. Told him I had just decided earlier today to start shooting great cars and I considered it a good omen I had run into such a good vehicle within a couple hours of such a decision. Amazing that he uses it for hauling brush, although, how cool is that? The original farm owner would be proud that it still does honest work.

Part of the reason is that I like fun lighting challenges. Unless you open an office out here in the middle of the Pacific we won't be competing. Keep up the good work back there on the mainland.

jonathan7007


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## Viggo (Feb 11, 2013)

V8Beast said:


> More love for the Odins. Strongly back-lit subjects always threw the infrared Canon flash triggering off, but with the Odins, shooting straight into the sun is no problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The light really lifts the image, care to share your setup for this shot, number of lights and what sorts of modifiers do you use?

The reason I ask is because I saw some similar types of shots and it was listed as bare bulb flash, and I couldn't work how one gets soft light from a small bare buld speedlite (unless bounced at least)


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## V8Beast (Feb 11, 2013)

jonathan7007 said:


> Yeah, I see the "context" choice. Makes sense. I was imagining more a *shadow* problem from vegetation because you often place lights low, but yes, there's the reflection issues caused whenever there's a shiny object in a shot... like a car!
> 
> This wagon looks like it's coiled for a leap. Lowered and all.
> 
> ...



That's great to hear. Our man wickidwombat also started shooting cars and has already produced some great work. Be sure to share with us as the automotive gigs roll in.


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## V8Beast (Feb 11, 2013)

Viggo said:


> The light really lifts the image, care to share your setup for this shot, number of lights and what sorts of modifiers do you use?
> 
> The reason I ask is because I saw some similar types of shots and it was listed as bare bulb flash, and I couldn't work how one gets soft light from a small bare buld speedlite (unless bounced at least)



No light modifiers were used in either shot, not even the flappy doohickey built into the Speedlight. Just by angling and positioning the flashes just right, you can get some surprisingly soft light from them even when they're pointed at metal. Of course, the light would be softer still by bouncing it off a reflector or using a softbox, but that can yield light that's too flat for my liking. That approach can still net very pleasing results if you opt for a more aggressive contrast curve in post, but it wasn't the look I was going for. There's also quite a bit of ambient light in both shots. The flashes primarily serve as accent and fill light, more so for the second shot than the first one.

The light from the flashes looks deceivingly soft in the overall shot of the car because some hot spots were removed in post. In the shot of the plane/hood ornament, there's a backlight to right of the plane's right wing, angled toward the center of the plane, and a fill light pointed at the plane's left wing. I forget the exact ratio, but I want to say that the backlight was set to put out twice the output as the fill light. If I turned off the fill, the shadow would have been much harsher, thereby making the light look harsher as well. Turn off the backlight while keeping the fill on, and the image would look flat and boring as hell, which is a bad thing when the subject isn't that interesting to begin with


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## Viggo (Feb 22, 2013)

Thanks a lot!


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## V8Beast (Feb 22, 2013)

No prob. All it takes is practice, and the great thing about digital is that practicing is free.


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