# You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink?



## adhocphotographer (Oct 20, 2013)

hi all,

My sister wants a DSLR (for a long time) and as a good brother i am going to surprise her with it for xmas (karma and all that). So I got a thinking.... If i were to start a fresh again, what would i do, knowing what i know now. I would pick up a used 5D (I)... But I know my sister won't take to kindly to being given an ebay camera for xmas, nor will she appreciate the advantage it would have given her.... So, do I get her a 600/650d kit new, or a second hand 5D? Do i force my opinion upon her, or do i let her play with her xxxD and choose her own path? If you knew nothing about cameras, how would you feel getting a used present?


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## Jim Saunders (Oct 20, 2013)

The simple answer is to get your sister a new T4i kit and see how she does with it.

Jim


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## Valvebounce (Oct 20, 2013)

Hi Adhoc. 
How old is your sister, that will perhaps have some bearing on the outcome of new vs used.
I think this is perhaps a generation thing, older generations felt lucky to get a couple of things new or second hand for birthdays and christmases, the current generation is truly distraught if they don't get the latest console with a stack of the latest games and a new bike and a... :.. You get my drift?

If your sister is of the correct mentality, I would imagine if you are able to find a 5D kit in its original box your sister would be made up especially if during the run up to Christmas you subtly ask her thoughts on full frame and crop and then explain, again with a degree of subtlety, what advantages full frame full frame has over crop. 
I do feel it is important that the gift should look like new so the kit in original box manual leads perhaps a new battery etc.
I think you will be doing her the favour of removing one step of upgrade.

Of course the new camera even a xxxD is guaranteed to be a success. 8)

The thing is you should know the answer to this before you buy a camera as disappointment is a double edged sword and it will spoil your day too if your sister is disappointed. 

Cheers Graham.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 20, 2013)

Get her a new body with kit lens. If you're feeling generous, throw in a cheap prime (50/1.8, 40/2.8 pancake) or a 430EX II.


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## AmbientLight (Oct 20, 2013)

The core problem here is having to explain, why you would give a used camera as a present. Even if you expect it to be better, there is a remote risk that there may be issues with the camera body (maybe later on), which would be non-issues with a new body with standard warranty on it. Once your sister gets interested enough so that she would want to purchase additional equipment you can still talk her into purchasing a used 5D or 5D Mark II. In this way such a purchase will be a calculated risk for her, but xmas present memories won't become an issue.


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## Orangutan (Oct 20, 2013)

The importance of the first DSLR is to spark an interest and desire to learn and improve. Get your sister a camera she will be happy and proud to carry everywhere and use for everything. The next best thing you can do is to invite her to go out on photo excursions with you, at which you share your enthusiasm, but hold back on the teaching and critique.


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## Ruined (Oct 20, 2013)

Go for the T4i. Besides, both APS and APS-C have advantages - its nice to have both.


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## bholliman (Oct 20, 2013)

I also recommend buying a new T4i. As others mentioned, a used camera may have issues you are not aware of and no warranty to fall back on.


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## Sporgon (Oct 20, 2013)

I'm definitely in the 'get the new Rebel' camp. Compared with the latest generation cameras the overall interface of the original 5D is more suited to Noah photographing animals on the deck of his Ark. As far as images are concerned the 5D really has little, if any advantage over the latest APS, unless you are going to appreciate that very subtle 5D mki 'look' which most, especially a novice, are not. 

If I was buying one for my sister I'd take a good look at the 100D / SL100.


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## unfocused (Oct 20, 2013)

adhocphotographer said:


> But I know my sister won't take to kindly to being given an ebay camera for xmas..



That's your answer right there. Generally, it's bad form to give a used gift unless your finances are really tenuous or the recipient specifically requests a used item.


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## dcm (Oct 20, 2013)

Depends on the person. My adult daughters like new, but they also like bargains. They buy/sell with craiglist/ebay and sell/shop at the vintage/second-time-around clothing stores. Everything doesn't have to be brand new in their world.

Rather than resell, over the years I have gifted my previous cameras/lenses/laptops to my daughters when I upgraded. I kept the original boxes and manuals so it was delivered as a complete package. I usually buy midrange or better so it's always an upgrade for them as well and they have been quite appreciative, even when its used. They know I've taken good care of it and it will work for them. 

My old T2i was quite a step up from a P&S for one daughter - she is now getting more serious about photography and shooting portraits of her friends and their kids. My granddaughter now has the P&S and takes some pretty interesting photos for a 2 year old - their point of view gives you quite a different perspective.

Sometimes I give them something new as well. Looking at a Canon refurb lens for one right now. Not sure if you would classify that as new or used.


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## distant.star (Oct 20, 2013)

.
First, if I didn't know anything about cameras, why would I want a DSLR?

The "benefits" you believe may be inherent in a used 5D may not exist. As experienced photographers, you and I will detect problems that cause the camera to perform badly. An inexperienced user may not see those problems. There is no way you can be sure what you're getting with a used camera. It could be faulty. It's not really fair to saddle your family member with that kind of uncertainty, and it will not aid their constructive discovery of joy in photography.

Second, does she really want a DSLR? Does she understand the genuine differences between a DSLR and other available cameras? Many people say they want things; often as not it's just talk. I'm not saying it's the case with your family member, but you have to be clear-eyed enough to discern that. It would not be helpful if she had to explain to you this time next year why the camera is still sitting little-used in a closet. That would be awkward for both of you.

Might she really be happier with a cashmere sweater?


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## emag (Oct 20, 2013)

New T4i is much better than the Nikon F2 I started with 39 years ago. 
She'll love it.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 20, 2013)

I would buy T5i kit 18-55 STM.  This lens is very sweet for novice users. Who knows, if your sister is more seriously interested, she will get a fast prime lens next year. May scold me, but I do not like 5D mark I, for size and weight does not help, and image quality is far from optimal. I issue a challenge to those who have the ability to do side by side tests between 5D Mark l and new 70D. I bet 70D will have more photos with correct focus, and less noise in the shadows.


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## boogaloo (Oct 20, 2013)

Big thumbs up for the 650d or any of that generation of starter cameras. I've used a 350d, then upgraded to a 650d and recently a 6d. The 650's a great wee camera. Much less intimidating than a large FF body, cheap lenses available to upgrade, great video and flip screen, decent low light (combined with a 40mm pancake it's a really good 'portable' camera for parties and nights out).


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## Vivid Color (Oct 21, 2013)

I would never presume to speak for all women, but as an almost 57 year-old woman (so not of the "current generation") who grew up in a home of modest means, and who loves a bargain as much as anyone, I'll share my perspective: Regarding the 5D: just don't go there. Buy your sister a new camera. We're not talking a vintage camera for a collector. We're talking about your sister who'd like a DSLR. And, you already know that your sister would not want to receive a second hand camera, so why are you still thinking about it? (Are you thinking about what you'd want rather than what your sister would like?) If for no other reason, you should give her a new camera so it will have a warranty. If the 5D breaks down, she'll have nothing. OK, I guess even broken cameras can be sold for parts, but she's still out a camera. If she asked you what SHE should BUY, then you could suggest a second hand camera. Or if she had hinted she wanted a 5D. But, you're giving her a surprise gift. And, in this case, I personally think giving your sister a used camera would be a really really bad surprise. In answer to your question about how I'd feel if I knew nothing about cameras and got a used one: To put it bluntly, I'd be WTF? I know they say it's the thought that counts but I'd likely interpret your thinking as strange at best. And, that would be in a calm moment of reflection after I had privately burst into tears. By your own statements, you've pretty much said the 5D is aligned with your preferences, not your sister's. Such a gift would not show that your valued your sister or her preferences. (To be clear, I'm not saying all second hand surprise gifts are wrong--some may be treasured--it all depends on the circumstances and I'm going on the circumstances as described by the OP.) Some final thoughts: if you want to make this about what your sister would like, then make sure you can return the camera for something else if it proves to be bigger or heavier than she expected or not ergonomically a good fit. Giving your sister a DSLR is a very thoughtful and generous gift. And, I commend you for being so generous. I just don't want you to mess it up.


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## Northstar (Oct 21, 2013)

unfocused said:


> adhocphotographer said:
> 
> 
> > But I know my sister won't take to kindly to being given an ebay camera for xmas..
> ...



+1
Spot on advice...done.


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## adhocphotographer (Oct 21, 2013)

distant.star said:


> .
> First, if I didn't know anything about cameras, why would I want a DSLR?



To learn!  She likes taking pictures on her P&S and wants to make the jump to DLSR.... obviously she knows very little about them.

To all : Thanks for the input, i think i will get her a new xxxD and then let her choose her own way!


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## Taemobig (Oct 21, 2013)

How about a mirrorless camera? Might be less intimidating than a DSLR for her.


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## Botts (Oct 21, 2013)

Taemobig said:


> How about a mirrorless camera? Might be less intimidating than a DSLR for her.


If you read above it looks like she specifically requested DSLR.I'd seriously consider a 60D. http://www.canonpricewatch.com/product/03305/Canon-EOS-60D-price.html

It's pretty similar in cost to a T4i or T5i and a beefier body with better speed and quality. I find the heftier body is a selling point for everyone who has already decided they want to go to DSLR. The 60D also has two control dials which are immensely helpful in manual vs the hold Av button and spin wheel option on the xxxD/Txi models.

Add a 18-55 or an 18-200 and you have a great starter kit. Adding a 40STM is great too.

Personally, I think a crop is a good place to start, she'll learn to shoot just the same as she would with a 5D. Then she can decide on her own later if FF is where she wants to go, and then whether or not she wants speed (5D3), or value (used 5D/5D2 or 6D). She can then choose lenses that she wants for the FF. For example, I hated the 35mm on crop, but love it on FF.


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## Ruined (Oct 21, 2013)

Botts said:


> Taemobig said:
> 
> 
> > How about a mirrorless camera? Might be less intimidating than a DSLR for her.
> ...



I disagree with the 60D recommendation. The T4i has a touchscreen which is immensely intuitive for a first time DSLR user. Further, the focusing system on the T4i is more advanced than the one on the 60D, and the T4i has a more advanced image processing chip. About the only major plus I'd give the 60D is a larger body for bigger lenses and a bit faster shutter speed, but I am not sure that would be an advantage here.


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## wickidwombat (Oct 21, 2013)

what about an eos-M


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## Hannes (Oct 22, 2013)

Just go for a 650D with kit lens or even a 100D, a 700D would probably be worth it for the better kit lens or get the STM kit lens separate. Like lots of people she'll probably want to do videos with her camera which will be difficult on the 5D I. If she is a beginner she will probably not like the idea of such a sizeable camera and find it too big. When she gets used to using a DSLR she'll probably see the point of upgrading. I would also +1 the suggestion of getting her a 40mm pancake so she gets in to the mindset straight away that DSLRs are meant to have the lens changed. Get her a lens hood as well and show her why it is a good idea to have one.


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## Ruined (Oct 24, 2013)

Hannes said:


> Just go for a 650D with kit lens or even a 100D, a 700D would probably be worth it for the better kit lens or get the STM kit lens separate. Like lots of people she'll probably want to do videos with her camera which will be difficult on the 5D I. If she is a beginner she will probably not like the idea of such a sizeable camera and find it too big. When she gets used to using a DSLR she'll probably see the point of upgrading. I would also +1 the suggestion of getting her a 40mm pancake so she gets in to the mindset straight away that DSLRs are meant to have the lens changed. Get her a lens hood as well and show her why it is a good idea to have one.



I agree with this, the 650D/700D with an STM lens, preferably the 18-135mm stm as that is a rather useful lens for video that doesn't have a superior version... 18-55 is bested by the 17-55 f/2.8 is usm.

Personally instead of the 40mm pancake I'd go with something like a 55-250 (stm if you can afford it as its a lot easier to handle than the non-stm, plus stm version image quality is far better), as 40mm is a bit weird of a focal length for aps-c plus the pancake though fun has better primes around the same focal length such as the 35 f/2 is usm or better yet for crop 28mm f/2.8 is usm. The 55-250 will probably get more use though as it covers additional range beyond kit lens. Then again the 28mm f/2.8 is usm is an ultra-sharp prime with image stabilization that is nearly as small as the pancake - but it is expensive!  55-250 is not. 

re: suggestion eos-m; no popup flash, tiny lens selection, slow af - probably not best for a starter camera.


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## Menace (Oct 24, 2013)

Go with 650d - she'll appreciate the touch screen and the relatively smaller body size. I'd add a nifty fifty to the kit and offer a couple of coaching sessions whenever is ready for them.


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## cayenne (Oct 24, 2013)

adhocphotographer said:


> hi all,
> 
> My sister wants a DSLR (for a long time) and as a good brother i am going to surprise her with it for xmas (karma and all that). So I got a thinking.... If i were to start a fresh again, what would i do, knowing what i know now. I would pick up a used 5D (I)... But I know my sister won't take to kindly to being given an ebay camera for xmas, nor will she appreciate the advantage it would have given her.... So, do I get her a 600/650d kit new, or a second hand 5D? Do i force my opinion upon her, or do i let her play with her xxxD and choose her own path? If you knew nothing about cameras, how would you feel getting a used present?



My first DSLR was the 5D3......depends on what you can afford, but buy the best you can afford for her.

cayenne


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## Skirball (Oct 24, 2013)

Get her an iPhone. The dSLR is dead.


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