# R5/R6 IBIS effectiveness ratings seem to be all over the board



## Kit Lens Jockey (Jul 10, 2020)

I know that rating cameras and lenses with stabilization to a certain number of stops of effectiveness is kind of a dubious pseudoscience to begin with. But there are a lot of wild claims going around about how many stops the IBIS claims to provide.

In the unveiling video, 8 stops was mentioned repeatedly, but I assumed anywhere near this would only be achieved when using a lens that also had stabilization. But this video offhandedly mentions that the 50mm f1.2 should provide 7 stops, and the 28-70mm f2 should provide 8 stops because of the "image circle" of those lenses, even though those lenses do not have IS. I assume they mean the image circle is large enough to allow the sensor a lot of room to move. (Link goes right to the spot in the video that mentions this.)






Claiming anything higher than 5 stops of stabilization with IBIS only and no IS in the lens sounds to me like something between overly ambitious and flat-out unheard of. Could the IBIS really be this good?


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## koenkooi (Jul 10, 2020)

Looking at the patents Canonnews.com has written about and interviews, Canon has been working on stabilizing different things, from obvious things like shaky hands, to non-obvious things like low-frequency movements like breathing or slow waves on a big boat.

So I can see a case where Canon adds up the stops, e.g. 4 stops high frequency shake, 4 stops low frequency shake, done, 8 stops! On the other hand, there is an actual CIPA standard (DC-011-2015) for it, so I hope they are talking about that instead of the funny math.


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## rosw (Jul 10, 2020)

Hi

Really confused about these 8 stop corrections

how does Canon determine which lens can "achieve" 8 stop of "anti-shake" ? (does not seems like L lens are "better")

*how about third party camera lens (tamron & sigma) or even the older EF lens (both L & No-L), will they be able to achieve 8 stop?*

how will we know?

please advice


from dpreview


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## koenkooi (Jul 10, 2020)

rosw said:


> Really confused about these 8 stop corrections
> 
> how does Canon determine which lens can "achieve" 8 stop of "anti-shake" ? (does not seems like L lens are "better")
> [..]


The answer is literally in the picture you posted: "Canon says the large image circle [..] allows [..] to hit this maximum figure"


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## Treyarnon (Jul 10, 2020)

I'll take a wild stab in the dark here - but perhaps the 50 F1.2 and 28-80 F2 still feature the shake detecting gryos built into the lenses to communicate with a [future] IBIS system even if they don't actually feature a floating IS element in the lens itself?


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jul 10, 2020)

Treyarnon said:


> I'll take a wild stab in the dark here - but perhaps the 50 F1.2 and 28-80 F2 still feature the shake detecting gryos built into the lenses to communicate with a [future] IBIS system even if they don't actually feature a floating IS element in the lens itself?


I highly doubt this, and I see absolutely no reason for it. The lens is affixed firmly to the camera body. Any shake or movement within the lens would also be detectable in the camera itself. If your lens is moving independently at all from the camera body, IBIS performance is the least of your worries.

Edit: Actually, after reading the blurb above from Canon, it kind of suggests this. So, maybe. I dunno. I don't see why you would need separate sensors within the lens and the camera. I would think that any shake, tilt, or movement in the lens would be detectable in the camera since they are fixed together.


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## rosw (Jul 10, 2020)

hi guys, 

so this 8-stop is it "auto" or do I need to manually need to adjust the "digital image stabilization" with the setting ?


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## Jack Douglas (Jul 10, 2020)

Treyarnon said:


> I'll take a wild stab in the dark here - but perhaps the 50 F1.2 and 28-80 F2 still feature the shake detecting gryos built into the lenses to communicate with a [future] IBIS system even if they don't actually feature a floating IS element in the lens itself?


I might as well guess too. If you think about the effect of movement the greatest sensitivity to it is going to be furthest from the sensor which seems to me is out in the lens but movements are both linear and rotational as well so ... ?

Jack


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## Kit. (Jul 10, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> I highly doubt this, and I see absolutely no reason for it. The lens is affixed firmly to the camera body. Any shake or movement within the lens would also be detectable in the camera itself. If your lens is moving independently at all from the camera body, IBIS performance is the least of your worries.
> 
> Edit: Actually, after reading the blurb above from Canon, it kind of suggests this. So, maybe. I dunno. I don't see why you would need separate sensors within the lens and the camera. I would think that any shake, tilt, or movement in the lens would be detectable in the camera since they are fixed together.


I can speculate that if Canon uses help of linear acceleration sensors to increase the accuracy of angular movement detection, then having an additional sensor in the lens may improve pitch axis rotation recognition.


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## Treyarnon (Jul 10, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> I highly doubt this, and I see absolutely no reason for it. The lens is affixed firmly to the camera body. Any shake or movement within the lens would also be detectable in the camera itself. If your lens is moving independently at all from the camera body, IBIS performance is the least of your worries.


My theory is that the best way to measure multi axis movement is to space multiple sensors as far apart as possible.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 10, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> I highly doubt this, and I see absolutely no reason for it. The lens is affixed firmly to the camera body. Any shake or movement within the lens would also be detectable in the camera itself. If your lens is moving independently at all from the camera body, IBIS performance is the least of your worries.
> 
> Edit: Actually, after reading the blurb above from Canon, it kind of suggests this. So, maybe. I dunno. I don't see why you would need separate sensors within the lens and the camera. I would think that any shake, tilt, or movement in the lens would be detectable in the camera since they are fixed together.


The shake or movement is likely magnified in the lens since you may be holding the camera body relatively still, but the lens is still moving, particularly toward the end. So there may be a combination of various motions that can be computed and nullified.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 10, 2020)

As for the question about 3rd party lenses, first there are no third party RF lenses with the new high speed communications, and may never be any. I doubt if it works with EF lenses the same way, but I've seen no reports.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 10, 2020)

The higher IBIS rating due to a larger lens circle almost sounds like some sort of digital stabilization, but that does not make much sense since you need a larger sensor to still put out a full size image.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jul 10, 2020)

rosw said:


> hi guys,
> 
> so this 8-stop is it "auto" or do I need to manually need to adjust the "digital image stabilization" with the setting ?





Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The higher IBIS rating due to a larger lens circle almost sounds like some sort of digital stabilization, but that does not make much sense since you need a larger sensor to still put out a full size image.


But if the lens is capable of providing a larger image circle, and the sensor is capable of making large movements inside that large circle, doesn't that mean the whole system can compensate for more shake?


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## Jack Douglas (Jul 10, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> But if the lens is capable of providing a larger image circle, and the sensor is capable of making large movements inside that large circle, doesn't that mean the whole system can compensate for more shake?


My guess is that's a key element.

Jack


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## RayValdez360 (Jul 10, 2020)

some lens have a bigger part open at the end than others. so that determines hoiw much the sensor can probably move around. makes sense to me.


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## rosw (Jul 10, 2020)

Canon claims certain lens has 8 stop, while others have 7 stop,

Q1) is there any way to test / prove?


Q2) how about the older EF lens ? Can they achieve 8 stop?


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## cayenne (Jul 10, 2020)

rosw said:


> Canon claims certain lens has 8 stop, while others have 7 stop,
> 
> Q1) is there any way to test / prove?
> 
> ...



It potentially sounds like it, if the EF (and maybe even other 3rd party lenses). have a large enough image circle for the sensor to move around inside of...?

cayenne


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jul 10, 2020)

rosw said:


> hi guys,
> 
> so this 8-stop is it "auto" or do I need to manually need to adjust the "digital image stabilization" with the setting ?


You can turn the IBIS on and off, but there's no setting the performance. It just does however good of a job it can based on how much the camera is shaking.


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## koenkooi (Jul 11, 2020)

rosw said:


> Canon claims certain lens has 8 stop, while others have 7 stop,
> 
> Q1) is there any way to test / prove?
> 
> ...


In the B&H Q&A panel Rudy Winston from Canon said the following:

The stops are measured by the CIPA standard
EF and RF non-IS lenses will get a menu entry for IBIS
EF and RF IS lenses won’t get a menu entry, IBIS is controlled by the IS switch on the lens
EF IS will work ‘simultaneously’ with IBIS
RF IS will work ‘in conjunction’ with IBIS
One of the Canon USA promo clips had a disclaimer saying any IS lens announced before July 9th will need a firmware update.

My interpretation is that for EF IS lenses, IBIS will only do rotation compensation, not shake compensation. For some select EF lenses you’ll get a firmware update to enable full IBIS, my guess would be the 2018 400mm and 600mm, since those seem to have RF style electronics already.
I hope the 100mm macro also gets a firmware update and full IBIS


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## koenkooi (Jul 11, 2020)

The IBIS talk starts around the 49:30 mark .


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## rosw (Jul 12, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> In the B&H Q&A panel Rudy Winston from Canon said the following:
> 
> The stops are measured by the CIPA standard
> EF and RF non-IS lenses will get a menu entry for IBIS
> ...




thanks thanks for your reply,
least some answers from "official canon staff"

so for third party OEM lens with IS (also need a "firm ware update" , if they can crack the code

cheers!


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## rosw (Jul 12, 2020)

if i use a gimbal together with EOS R with the approved RF IS lens (eg 8.0 EV 24-70mm F2.8L / 85mm F1.2L / 85mm F2 Macro) , can i achieve more than 8 Stop of Shake stabilization?


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## Jack Douglas (Jul 12, 2020)

rosw said:


> if i use a gimbal together with EOS R with the approved RF IS lens (eg 8.0 EV 24-70mm F2.8L / 85mm F1.2L / 85mm F2 Macro) , can i achieve more than 8 Stop of Shake stabilization?


Good question. They are two independent systems so one would assume the answer would be yes, but how much. I don't recall gimbals being rated in stops.  In my mind the gimbal is addressing some very large movements compared to the camera and is doing things like maintaining a particular position or level. Hopefully someone can illuminate us.

Jack


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## koenkooi (Jul 12, 2020)

rosw said:


> if i use a gimbal together with EOS R with the approved RF IS lens (eg 8.0 EV 24-70mm F2.8L / 85mm F1.2L / 85mm F2 Macro) , can i achieve more than 8 Stop of Shake stabilization?



There's a really short comparison between is, ibis and gimbal and everything combined in this video: Vistek R5 &R6, around the 6:00 mark.


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## koenkooi (Jul 13, 2020)

More Rudy talking about IBIS at the 29:11 mark. His remarks about "low speed and video" stabilization on EF IS lenses seem to confirm my suspicion that it won't do shake correction on those, only rotation. The support for low frequency things like breathing is a nice extra


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## Joules (Jul 13, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> More Rudy talking about IBIS at the 29:11 mark. His remarks about "low speed and video" stabilization on EF IS lenses seem to confirm my suspicion that it won't do shake correction on those, only rotation. The support for low frequency things like breathing is a nice extra


You also can find Canon staff making the opposite claim. See after 2:50 in this:






If my English isn't deceiving me here, he says IBIS corrects for horizontal and vertical movement as well as roll when using an IS EF lens.

I am personally trying to keep away from any further coverage. At this point it seems to me that there is too much info floating around, that can't be verified yet. And it is very hard to see what claims people are making is based on what.


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## cayenne (Jul 13, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> In the B&H Q&A panel Rudy Winston from Canon said the following:
> 
> The stops are measured by the CIPA standard
> EF and RF non-IS lenses will get a menu entry for IBIS
> ...




Hmm...I'd never knows that you could update EF lens firmware?!?!?!?

I learn something new every day I guess. So, do EF lenses have a port on them or something you plug into?
Have there been many updates for EF lenses?

Anyone have a link to EF lens updates?

I know the cameras and do updates, although I"ve never updated the firmware on my 5D3, I plan to look into trying that one weekend here soon, but I'd never heard the lenses themselves are updatable...

Thanks in advance,

C


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## Kit. (Jul 13, 2020)

cayenne said:


> Anyone have a link to EF lens updates?


https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...f-600mm-f-4l-is-iii-usm?tab=drivers_downloads - for example


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## koenkooi (Jul 13, 2020)

cayenne said:


> Hmm...I'd never knows that you could update EF lens firmware?!?!?!?
> 
> I learn something new every day I guess. So, do EF lenses have a port on them or something you plug into?
> Have there been many updates for EF lenses?[..]



It's through the camera, just put the firmware on the memory card and go into the update menu.



cayenne said:


> [..]Anyone have a link to EF lens updates?[..[








Canon Support for | Canon U.S.A., Inc.


Find support for your Canon . Browse the recommended drivers, downloads, and manuals to make sure your product contains the most up-to-date software.




www.usa.canon.com





More here.


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## cayenne (Jul 13, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> It's through the camera, just put the firmware on the memory card and go into the update menu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




OH thank you!!

Well, as I'd mentioned, I'd never updated the 5D3....so, guessing I may update a LOT at once, might be good for a rainy weekend.

I'll have to see if the updates are cumulative, etc....and which ones to get.

I'd always thought about putting Magic Lantern on the 5D3, and I believe back when I read that, you couldn't do the latest firmware update for the camera, you had to be 1-2 version behind.

I dunno if ML is still a thing anymore or not, I'll look but guessing at this point, I'll just do the latest and greatest for the 5D3 and then look into the lens upgrades on the camera.

Thanks for all the great info!!

C


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## koenkooi (Jul 16, 2020)

Running https://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/1264060.html through google translate provides some more info, including a table listing IS+IBIS functionality for both EF and RF.


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