# Are you horizontally challenged?



## Marsu42 (Dec 10, 2013)

I specifically asked to introduce a new subforum because I didn't know where to place this question (thanks for the quick addition, CR!):

The problem: I often have a hard time getting my images straight and thus have to correct in post - the problem is that even a minor correction cuts away a big part of the picture, resulting in a too tight framing.

My ability has definitely improved since I (re)started doing photography ~two years ago, and adding a Eg-D screen has helped a lot because the lines are inconspicuous enough not to disturb, but visible enough to be seen when you want it.

Currently, the problematic shots are either when I have no straight reference in the background at all, when the background isn't straight either like trees or plants, or when I am doing shots in awkward positions like lying on the ground and not having the camera in a direct line to the subject (like below).

*Questions: *_Do you know this problem, how do you do it? Do you try to search for reference lines, or do you simply trust your feelings like Obi-Wan would say to know where up and down is? Do you have any hints how to improve?_

As a sample, here's a "problem" type shot: Even though (or because?) there is a table leg in the background as some reference, all angles look somehow wrong certainly including the one where the leg has a 90 degrees angle to the screen sides. But maybe that's just me, and maybe it would look different in print than on the screen?


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 10, 2013)

Bryan Carnathan (TDP) coined the term HLDS = horizon level deficiency syndrome. It's the first entry in his 'medical dictionary'. So clearly, you're not alone.


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## Marsu42 (Dec 10, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> So clearly, you're not alone.



Well, that's certainly a relief  ... to my horror he knows no treatment other than using the electronic level which is awkward on non-transparent vf cameras (!= 7d, 70d, 5d3, 1dx ...) where the level is only displayed on the bottom.

This is really a problem for me as I very often do these type of shots and I don't intend to switch to architecture. Usually, I have to change the shot degree for degree in post until *bing* I think: That's it. I hope. Eventually. Or not?


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## surapon (Dec 10, 2013)

Yes, Sir, Dear Teachers, Mr. Marsu42 and Mr. neuroanatomist.
I never try to shoot at Eye level of the Animal before, Because, I am lazy man, and do not want my Pants/ Dress Dirty from the ground.
Yes, Sir, I complete agree with you, The Eye level of the Photo that you post is fantastic Point of View, Plus the major part of the subject are blur too---that let my eyes point direct to the eyes of animal at the first time that i see this photo.
Yes, Sir, I will try this eye level/ this wonderful point of view at the animal from now on.
Thousand Thanks, Sir.
Surapon


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## privatebydesign (Dec 10, 2013)

I think most people have a "side" that they naturally slant to, certainly I can almost run a batch on handheld shots at times to correct a 1º tilt, often when using a monopod. Though I am not entirely consistent, sometimes I am pretty straight and coming from a slide shooting background it is just lazyness creeping in!

But the answer and the one thing I drum in to every second shooter I have ever used, shoot loose. It is so easy to crop to frame after, it is mostly impractical to crop bigger after shooting.

It harks back to the mantra of greats like Ansel Adams, shoot not for the capture but for the output, make your post processing as simple as possible and that, nowadays, means shoot to crop or give yourself some cropping room. 

Failing that learn canvass extension and content aware fill


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 10, 2013)

Get one of these…






Goes in your hotshoe like a bubble level, but in addition to the LEDs, it beeps (either when you're exactly level, or indicates how far off you are with different pitch tones).

Or maybe this should be posted in the Useless Gadgets thread?


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## JPAZ (Dec 10, 2013)

I am definitely challenged (in many ways  ) but I changed the focus screen in my old 50d to help and have "turned on" the grid in the 5diii. I still often need to do some leveling in post. I have gotten into the habit of allowing some extra space in my framing knowing that it will be lost in the leveling crop, but there is a cost to that.....IQ is definitely best without cropping at all, since more pixels are left in the image.


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## surapon (Dec 10, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Get one of these…
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dear Sir.
That will solve the Problem of my Lazyness to sit down or lay down on the grown. But Would you please, tell me How can I get this LED. Levelor like this one. Thanks you , Sir. ( Yes, I have the Manual Levelor already).
Surapon


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## privatebydesign (Dec 10, 2013)

JPAZ said:


> I am definitely challenged (in many ways  ) but I changed the focus screen in my old 50d to help and have "turned on" the grid in the 5diii. I still often need to do some leveling in post. I have gotten into the habit of allowing some extra space in my framing knowing that it will be lost in the leveling crop, but there is a cost to that.....IQ is definitely best without cropping at all, since more pixels are left in the image.



When we were shooting 4MP cameras that was a valid point, but now with 20-30+ MP that simply is not true with the vast majority of reproduction scenarios. Countless people will never, ever, view their images on screens with more resolutions than a 4K screen, or 8.2MP, that is over a 60% crop from 5D MkIII. Printing is done by fewer and fewer people but even when it is our current cameras can print vastly bigger prints than most people will ever do, but even if you do print and push resolution there are many ways to mitigate the effects.

We have so much IQ in reserve so much of the time now most of the time it is a spurious point.


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## Marsu42 (Dec 10, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> But the answer and the one thing I drum in to every second shooter I have ever used, shoot loose. It is so easy to crop to frame after, it is mostly impractical to crop bigger after shooting.



This is exactly what I've told myself, and again and again I'm ignoring my own advice because when taking the shot it looks just fine and I can never imagine I'm so wrong and I'll have to rotate it quite a bit.

Plus it's of course nice to get a shot out of camera you don't have to crop at all, and I also have the "maximum megapixel usage disorder" even though I know 18/20 mp is more than enough even after cropping :-\



privatebydesign said:


> Failing that learn canvass extension and content aware fill



I admit I already used it for this very purpose...


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 10, 2013)

surapon said:


> But Would you please, tell me How can I get this LED. Levelor like this one.



Here.


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## eli452 (Dec 10, 2013)

Try the following
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/672911-REG/Seculine_AL_205_AL_205_Action_Level_Cross.html


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## Marsu42 (Dec 10, 2013)

eli452 said:


> Try the following



The problem is that all these occupy the hotshoe, and that's where my flash or transmitter is (since the 6d has gps and wifi, but no rt flash transmitter - thank you Canon :-\).



surapon said:


> Yes, Sir, I will try this eye level/ this wonderful point of view at the animal from now on.



Oh well, another fluffy bunny snapshot for Surapon  ... I take a lot of pictures lying on flat on the ground, crawling through mud or kneeing in waist-high water to get to eye level of animals.


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## surapon (Dec 10, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> surapon said:
> 
> 
> > But Would you please, tell me How can I get this LED. Levelor like this one.
> ...



Thanks you, Sir, I will order to day from B&H, But I will check with my local Camera Shop first.
Surapon


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## mackguyver (Dec 10, 2013)

Unfortunately it seems to worsen with age. I've never had issues in the past, but since my last birthday it hasn't been pretty...


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## surapon (Dec 10, 2013)

eli452 said:


> Try the following
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/672911-REG/Seculine_AL_205_AL_205_Action_Level_Cross.html



Thanks you, Sir, Sound Great , Dear Mr. Eli452.
But " Seculine AL-205 Action Level Cross
B&H # SEAL205 ■ Mfr # AL-205
No Longer Available "
Thanks again.
Surapon


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## surapon (Dec 10, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> eli452 said:
> 
> 
> > Try the following
> ...



Dear Sir, Mr. Marsu42.
You are the Real PRO, Who " I take a lot of pictures lying on flat on the ground, crawling through mud or kneeing in waist-high water to get to eye level of animals. "---I will lean from you for the first time in my life, to go in the mud, in the water and lay on the ground---Yes, My wife will hate me, When I change from the Hobby to be the PRO----Ha, Ha, Ha.
Thanks you, Sir.
Surapon


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## mrzero (Dec 10, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> As a sample, here's a "problem" type shot: Even though (or because?) there is a table leg in the background as some reference, all angles look somehow wrong certainly including the one where the leg has a 90 degrees angle to the screen sides. But maybe that's just me, and maybe it would look different in print than on the screen?



Sometimes I think you need to consider the framing with fresh eyes. I don't see that as a "problem" shot at all, because I don't see a table leg in the background. Only you know that thing is a table leg. (BTW, I love the bokeh. Bunny bokeh. Awesome!) Once you accept that, you are free to rotate the crop so the lines of the photo flow the way you want them to.


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## Marsu42 (Dec 10, 2013)

surapon said:


> You are the Real PRO



Thanks, unfortunately "pro" would involve making some money, but I'm working on that  ... 

... but I know many photogs are not able to or are too reluctant to get into awkward positions, that's why I try to do it to produce something different than the rest. Though I recently was questioning my own strategy after kneeing for two hours in cold water up to the breast in a pond to get some frog shots, but they turned out nice and it's real wild wildlife 



mrzero said:


> Sometimes I think you need to consider the framing with fresh eyes. I don't see that as a "problem" shot at all, because I don't see a table leg in the background.



Good point, thank you, some distance often helps, I didn't even blur or post-process the background further.

It labeled it a "problem" shot because the framing was extremely tight (behind me was a wall) and I took you-dont-want-to-know how many shots not only to nail the focus @100% crop, but to get the framing right because neither aligning the background nor the subject to a 90/180 degree straight level worked.


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## ahab1372 (Dec 10, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Oh well, another fluffy bunny snapshot for Surapon  ... I take a lot of pictures lying on flat on the ground, crawling through mud or kneeing in waist-high water to get to eye level of animals.


Only waist-deep? Look at Mate Bence


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## surapon (Dec 10, 2013)

ahab1372 said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh well, another fluffy bunny snapshot for Surapon  ... I take a lot of pictures lying on flat on the ground, crawling through mud or kneeing in waist-high water to get to eye level of animals.
> ...




Ha, Ha, Ha, Dear Mr. ahab1372.
Well in this case, I will hire some of the PRO to do the job for me, I do not want to play with snake or alligators---Yes, If I die, My wife will be very happy person to remarry with young and handsome man---And That Young man will laugh at the Old Fool---Ha, Ha, Ha.
Nice to talk to you, Sir.
Surapon


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## Marsu42 (Dec 10, 2013)

ahab1372 said:


> Only waist-deep? Look at Mate Bence



I'm getting off-topic from my own thread, and I'd really like further input on how to get level shots in-camera...

...but now that I see that your shot I can admit it: I look like this wading through the pond, but without the camo gear on and was hovering my expensive dslr macro gear 1cm above water level crawling up on unsuspecting frogs. I thought if I admitted my shooting style straight out I'd get banned for proven insanity. The good thing: easy to get the levels straight at water level  ... quak..


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## alexanderferdinand (Dec 10, 2013)

The bunny and the leg:
you are right: you know it, and so it annoys you.
I wouldnt have noticed that.
BUT: if you try to tilt this in PP the bunny would look funny.....
I would leave it like it is.
Its a uncommon angle, so it is acceptable as "point of view".
Cute bunny, and a nice shot of it!!


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## surapon (Dec 10, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> ahab1372 said:
> 
> 
> > Only waist-deep? Look at Mate Bence
> ...



Yes, Sir,Dear Mr. Marsu42, That Why I call you the PRO, Because of Your Beautiful/ Artistic Creator like this Photo.----Yes, In the PRO Magazine, They have definition of the PRO = some one earn 80% of their income/ Money from Protography---BUT, In my IDEA---Just my IDEA, so many They call them self THE PRO as their work in Advertizing/ Photography for their living----Their skill in Artistic Photography, most of them are far below the Skill of CR Members , who I see their photos on so many posts in CR.
Thanks you, Sir for the wonderful Point of View, which I can learn from you, to improve my skill in the near future.
Surapon


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## Marsu42 (Dec 10, 2013)

alexanderferdinand said:


> BUT: if you try to tilt this in PP the bunny would look funny..... I would leave it like it is.



Good, because it isn't as it is, it already is slightly rotated :-> ... but I seem to have found the good compromise. 

These things somehow seem to happen often with my shots, probably I'm shooting a lot of animals in natural environments and nothing is 90 degrees angle nor will they wait for you to take the perfect point of view shot....

... meaning that judging from the replies so far the way to go really seems to leave more space and then rotate in post.



surapon said:


> Yes, Sir,Dear Mr. Marsu42, That Why I call you the PRO, Because of Your Beautiful/ Artistic Creator like this



Oh my, you're certainly good at flattery, thank you very much  ... all gearheads please note that this was taken with a cheap 100mm non-L macro on a beggar-class 60d, you can get nice shots from this lens.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Dec 10, 2013)

Yes, I definitely am challenged. I find the leveling feature in LR5 gets considerable use.


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## Hannes (Dec 18, 2013)

A bit late to the party but my name is Hannes and I have a horizon problem. The issue seems far worse when I'm using my 1D III compared to my 40D or 400D (who needs more than 10mpix, right?)


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## Don Haines (Dec 18, 2013)

I take a lot of pictures from canoes and kayaks.... I do a lot of horizon straightening....


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## lion rock (Dec 18, 2013)

I think there are times when a photo need not be "straight", as in the rabbit shots. There is no real reference to a perceived horizontal or vertical reference.
My first photo is another example where the subjects look vertical.
My second photo shows the main person seems to sit vertical, but the background is slanted. Straightening the background makes the main guy sit totally uncomfortable. Then, what about the lady to the left. She's bending forward, and if the photo is straightened, she appears funny.
Yes, when there is a definite horizontal or vertical reference, a photo has to be straight ( unless an intention of making a point ).


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## privatebydesign (Dec 18, 2013)

That wall is entirely straight, for Vietnam


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## lion rock (Dec 18, 2013)

Dear Private,

So, straighten up referenced to the display case.
Do you think it looks better?
-r



privatebydesign said:


> That wall is entirely straight, for Vietnam


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## privatebydesign (Dec 18, 2013)

Personally I like the more dynamic of the first one, but what is my opinion worth!

All the best.


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