# Canon Q2 2019 financial results released



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 27, 2019)

> Canon released their Q2 financials this week, and things are a bit of a mixed bag for the company. There have been a lot of external forces at play in the USA, China and Europe and that has affected Canon’s profitability.
> *Canon breaks down their camera business in Q2:*
> Looking at interchangeable-lens cameras, in addition to market contraction centered on entry-class DSLRs, in 2018 we launched three new products that led to a high level of sales in the second quarter of last year. As a result, unit sales for the second quarter this year were down 22% to 1.08 million.
> Against this backdrop, we successively launched strategic full-frame models into the mirrorless camera market from the second half of last year. The introduction of a high-end model, further heightened our presence in the market and at the same time had a positive impact on overall sales of our mirrorless cameras.
> On the other hand, in the full-frame category of the market where price competition is increasing, as...



Continue reading...


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## Ozarker (Jul 27, 2019)

This -------> "...we will foster trust in our products." The statement refers to professionals. I am not one of those. However, this is why I like Canon. I trust their products. In my opinion, Canon fosters trust at all levels.

From products that are dependable and reliable, to their service when things go wrong. I trust Canon. Canon gets my $.


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## keithcooper (Jul 27, 2019)

This is my own quick guess as to what may happen to the Canon camera timeline over the next year or two




I suspect it'll be very different by 2023 when Digic 10 arrives ;-)


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## Woody (Jul 27, 2019)

Canon sold 1.93 million interchangeable lens cameras from Jan-Jun 2019. Now waiting for CIPA numbers to get an estimate of Canon's market share.

According to CIPA, ILC shipment numbers for Jan-May 2019 is only 72% of that in 2018.


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## josephandrews222 (Jul 27, 2019)

keithcooper said:


> This is my own quick guess as to what may happen to the Canon camera timeline over the next year or two
> 
> View attachment 185819
> 
> ...



Keith Cooper: I very much enjoy your writing at Northlight...and your (more informed than my) speculation here seems on point to me.


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## Ozarker (Jul 27, 2019)

Woody said:


> Canon sold 1.93 million interchangeable lens cameras from Jan-Jun 2019. Now waiting for CIPA numbers to get an estimate of Canon's market share.
> 
> According to CIPA, ILC shipment numbers for Jan-May 2019 is only 72% of that in 2018.


The whole industry is suffering, for sure. Terrible times for them.


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## Chaitanya (Jul 27, 2019)

keithcooper said:


> This is my own quick guess as to what may happen to the Canon camera timeline over the next year or two
> 
> View attachment 185819
> 
> ...


That looks like a logical consolidation of lineup, I suspect that 77D and lower slrs will be replaced with some sort of MiLC 2-3 years down the line with no upgrades coming anytime soon. In that category atleast EVF even cheap ones are light years better than those mirror viewfinders.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 27, 2019)

6degrees said:


> Canon needs to forget about maintaining DSLR markets. Get on MIrrorless 100%, pedal to the floor.


Yes, Canon by all means should totally and immediately abandon over half of the global ILC market. 

Let me guess, you found an MBA in a box of Cracker Jacks.


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## PGSanta (Jul 27, 2019)

6degrees said:


> Can you read this?
> 
> __
> https://flic.kr/p/9pirpz



To be fair... he's got a point.


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## tmroper (Jul 27, 2019)

6degrees said:


> Can you read this?
> 
> __
> https://flic.kr/p/9pirpz


I can read it was taken with a 5DII. And that bolsters your argument for ditching such cameras how?


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## keithcooper (Jul 27, 2019)

PGSanta said:


> To be fair... he's got a point.


What point? - Am I missing something here. I see a picture of a building (slightly on the skew) taken on a dull day...


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## BillB (Jul 27, 2019)

6degrees said:


> Canon needs to forget about maintaining DSLR markets. Get on MIrrorless 100%, pedal to the floor.
> 
> Not too late if RF Mount really has advantage, saying over E Mount, which is very prominent by RF 85mm F1.2, 50mm F1,2, 28-70mm F2, and 16-28mm F2 or 14-21mm F1.4 to come.


Maybe Canon is in a position to move aggressively on FF mirrorless without writing off DSLR markets. The rest of the industry seems to be handing Canon the DSLR market, for what that is worth.


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## josephandrews222 (Jul 27, 2019)

As the ACS (American Chemical Society) bumper sticker stated (way back in the 1980s)--'It takes alkynes to make a chemist' (spoiler: alkynes= all kinds).

And it takes alkynes to make an interesting forum/bulletin board--I love checking in here daily.

I wonder how one of our most prodigious posters here would have responded while, in all likelihood doing 'A' work on one of my second semester organic chemistry exams, nevertheless did not answer every question on every exam...correctly.

For nearly all students, I don the professor's hat when they bring their queries about missed questions to office hour. These students and I enjoy the interactions that resulted, though...and we all benefit from the discussions that ensue.

For just a very small number, though, three decades of teaching orgo has taught me that some of the brightest students never EVER thought they were wrong. They worked hard and generally received 100% scores on their exams...in math, bio, chem and physics classes.

Except in my second-term organic class. Thankfully chairs and deans understand (I think!).

=====

There is no question that Canon is the most successful manufacturer in the 'camera space'.

There is also no question that Canon has fallen behind in certain segments of the marketplace.

And there is also no question that Canon is now trying furiously to do what they do well (be a 'fast follower').

Before turning to the academic world, I was an employee at General Electric's R&D Center (think Thomas Edison).

GE's management at that time talked out loud about being 'fast followers'. They boasted about it--and said (again, out loud) that they did not need to innovate.

Have you seen GE's stock price lately? Hell forget about valuation...today some believe that the future of the company as we know it is in doubt.

I hope Canon succeeds--my family and I have invested thousands in the brand!

And I think they will.

But it is not a certainty.


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## PGSanta (Jul 27, 2019)

keithcooper said:


> What point? - Am I missing something here. I see a picture of a building (slightly on the skew) taken on a dull day...



I was referring to the snarky reply to the bad idea.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 27, 2019)

6degrees said:


> Can you read this?


42


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## allanP (Jul 28, 2019)

On the one hand, the photo market is getting smaller.
On the other hand, Canon for too long does not offer what potential customers expect. 
The drops could have been smaller if the company followed the customers' voice. 
Instead, it has been pushing them towards the competition, and this for years.
I have been a loyal client of Canon for over 20 years, but also patience has its limits.
Just a pity


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## Kit. (Jul 28, 2019)

allkar said:


> On the one hand, the photo market is getting smaller.
> On the other hand, Canon for too long does not offer what potential customers expect.


Mobile phones?



allkar said:


> The drops could have been smaller if the company followed the customers' voice.
> Instead, it has been pushing them towards the competition, and this for years.


The market is getting smaller, but Canon is gaining market share. Which means the competition is not any better at "following the customers' voice".


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## docsmith (Jul 28, 2019)

keithcooper said:


> This is my own quick guess as to what may happen to the Canon camera timeline over the next year or two
> 
> View attachment 185819
> 
> ...


This would imply a 2 year refresh rate on the R and RP. Personally, I am hoping for a 5DV, but I could see this being overall correct, but suspect the 5D replacement would be numbered, move up market (ie. more expensive) and Canon continues to sell the R at ~$2k. So, 2 up market R bodies, the high MP and the 5D series replacement in 2020. For differentiating, how about 75 MP with something like 5 fps for $3,200 settle in price at $3k, 45 MP with 8 fps for $3,000 settle in price around $2700, and then the R at 30 MP for sub(not a fan of MP wars, but easy differentiation).

I'd still like to see a 5DV. Give me ~30 MP, 10-12 fps, BSI sensor (just to keep up, really isn't needed), wider spread of AF points (most appealing aspect of mirrorless to me), a few other "20% improvements that add up" and take my money.


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## BillB (Jul 28, 2019)

docsmith said:


> This would imply a 2 year refresh rate on the R and RP. Personally, I am hoping for a 5DV, but I could see this being overall correct, but suspect the 5D replacement would be numbered, move up market (ie. more expensive) and Canon continues to sell the R at ~$2k. So, 2 up market R bodies, the high MP and the 5D series replacement in 2020. For differentiating, how about 75 MP with something like 5 fps for $3,200 settle in price at $3k, 45 MP with 8 fps for $3,000 settle in price around $2700, and then the R at 30 MP for sub(not a fan of MP wars, but easy differentiation).
> 
> I'd still like to see a 5DV. Give me ~30 MP, 10-12 fps, BSI sensor (just to keep up, really isn't needed), wider spread of AF points (most appealing aspect of mirrorless to me), a few other "20% improvements that add up" and take my money.


Surely a tilty floppy rear LCD. Seriously, I think Canon could just leave the 5DIV on the market indefinitely. Either a buyer wants a solid high performance DSLR or they want something else.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 28, 2019)

allkar said:


> Instead, it has been pushing them towards the competition, and this for years.
> I have been a loyal client of Canon for over 20 years, but also patience has its limits.
> Just a pity


If Canon has been ‘pushing customers towards the competition for years’, how is it that Canon _gained_ market share over those years? It’s a pity when people make claims that contradict facts and reality, they just end up sounding foolish. 

Equally foolish is being a ‘loyal client’ of any large company. Canon does not reciprocate — they don’t give a damn about you, personally. You’re just a number to them, if that. If the reason you continue to use Canon is brand loyalty, you should switch. Now. 

Of course, maybe you would rather complain but not take action. That seems to be pretty common around here.


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## BillB (Jul 28, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> If Canon has been ‘pushing customers towards the competition for years’, how is it that Canon _gained_ market share over those years? It’s a pity when people make claims that contradict facts and reality, they just end up sounding foolish.
> 
> Equally foolish is being a ‘loyal client’ of any large company. Canon does not reciprocate — they don’t give a damn about you, personally. You’re just a number to them, if that. If the reason you continue to use Canon is brand loyalty, you should switch. Now.
> 
> Of course, maybe you would rather complain but not take action. That seems to be pretty common around here.


So Canon can't even push customers towards the completion very well.


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## allanP (Jul 28, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> ... If the reason you continue to use Canon is brand loyalty, you should switch. Now.



It's in progress.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 28, 2019)

allkar said:


> It's in progress.


Good for you!


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## PGSanta (Jul 28, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> If Canon has been ‘pushing customers towards the competition for years’, how is it that Canon _gained_ market share over those years? It’s a pity when people make claims that contradict facts and reality, they just end up sounding foolish.
> 
> Equally foolish is being a ‘loyal client’ of any large company. Canon does not reciprocate — they don’t give a damn about you, personally. You’re just a number to them, if that. If the reason you continue to use Canon is brand loyalty, you should switch. Now.
> 
> Of course, maybe you would rather complain but not take action. That seems to be pretty common around here.



Canon is gaining market share by one metric, and one alone: total unit sales. 

In a declining, mature market like the ILC market, there’s a lot of room to argue that unit sales are of secondary importance relative to the share a company enjoys of revenue and profit. In both of those later metrics, Canon’s market share has declined, not gained ground. 

Just because Canon sells a bunch of hot garbage at Costco and Walmart doesn’t mean it’s getting a leg up on the competition.


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## Kit. (Jul 28, 2019)

PGSanta said:


> Canon is gaining market share by one metric, and one alone: total unit sales.
> 
> In a declining, mature market like the ILC market, there’s a lot of room to argue that unit sales are of secondary importance relative to the share a company enjoys of revenue and profit.


So, you didn't notice that Canon's camera unit sales are dropping much faster than Canon's camera revenues?



PGSanta said:


> In both of those later metrics, Canon’s market share has declined, not gained ground.


There is no such thing as "market share in profits". As to market share in revenues, [citation needed]



PGSanta said:


> Just because Canon sells a bunch of hot garbage at Costco and Walmart


Why do you call it "garbage"?



PGSanta said:


> doesn’t mean it’s getting a leg up on the competition.


Your definition of "getting a leg up" is likely different from what Costco and Walmart use.


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## PGSanta (Jul 28, 2019)

Kit. said:


> So, you didn't notice that Canon's camera unit sales are dropping much faster than Canon's camera revenues?



How does this relate to what I stated?



Kit. said:


> There is no such thing as "market share in profits". As to market share in revenues, [citation needed]



Read as market share of revenues and profit margin.



> Why do you call it "garbage"?



Because enthusiasts would never bother with it; it's not targeted to us.




> Your definition of "getting a leg up" is likely different from what Costco and Walmart use.



I would hope so.


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## Kit. (Jul 28, 2019)

PGSanta said:


> How does this relate to what I stated?


It shows that you are not really interested in the actual numbers.



PGSanta said:


> Read as market share of revenues and profit margin.


So, what are the numbers?



PGSanta said:


> Because enthusiasts would never bother with it; it's not targeted to us.


Who are those "enthusiasts" and why should I care what they bother with? And do you have kids?


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## transpo1 (Jul 28, 2019)

In other words, among other things- they are seeing very steep competition in FF MILC sales.


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## David - Sydney (Jul 29, 2019)

docsmith said:


> This would imply a 2 year refresh rate on the R and RP. Personally, I am hoping for a 5DV, but I could see this being overall correct, but suspect the 5D replacement would be numbered, move up market (ie. more expensive) and Canon continues to sell the R at ~$2k. So, 2 up market R bodies, the high MP and the 5D series replacement in 2020. For differentiating, how about 75 MP with something like 5 fps for $3,200 settle in price at $3k, 45 MP with 8 fps for $3,000 settle in price around $2700, and then the R at 30 MP for sub(not a fan of MP wars, but easy differentiation).
> 
> I'd still like to see a 5DV. Give me ~30 MP, 10-12 fps, BSI sensor (just to keep up, really isn't needed), wider spread of AF points (most appealing aspect of mirrorless to me), a few other "20% improvements that add up" and take my money.


+1 for a 5Dv.... weather sealing, weight balance / ergonomics, dual card, battery life general purpose workhorse. I wonder what it would take for Canon to bring out a replacement? I would imagine that there is a ongoing demand for a replacement for the 5Div with a new sensor/AF/MP bump/ fps bump/dynamic range bump. Could a R version provide a 5D size/ergnomics with a RF mount? It seems that the consensus is a high res and a sports model that I can see.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 29, 2019)

I read that price competition is increasing for DSLR's. Basically, to me that says that everyone is lowering prices because they aren't selling well. Lower prices means less or no profit, so they are hoping on selling profitable lenses and accessories.

If DSLR's are not selling at profitable prices, they will go away. Certainly not soon, but fade away and we won't see big $ investments in new models, but will see slightly improved features or addition of bundled accessories with a new model number.

Right now, consumers are showing a strong interest in mirrorless, and they probably cost less to make and support since they should be more reliable over time. There is a bigger profit in mirrorless cameras, and even bigger in the lenses, so expect Canon to push them.


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## Woody (Jul 29, 2019)

PGSanta said:


> In a declining, mature market like the ILC market, there’s a lot of room to argue that unit sales are of secondary importance relative to the share a company enjoys of revenue and profit. In both of those later metrics, Canon’s market share has declined, not gained ground.



Spoken like a true Sony fanboy.

Canon just launched their FF MILC line. Wait for the line to gain traction, then watch Sony decline... This is not new. Canon has done this many many times in the past.

"Canon — Initially a follower in film SLR, eventually a leader in autofocus SLR; then a follower in DSLR that again flipped to leader; then a follower in mirrorless which may be flipping to leader. Sense a pattern there? *Canon isn't generally the first mover, but when they move they move. I think that anyone who underestimates the EOS M and whatever full frame mirrorless Canon decides to produce needs to rethink their position.* I'd call Canon opportunistic and well managed. I wouldn't call them the innovator that's going to trigger the next changeover in camera designs by leading the way, but they are *quick to understand when that changeover is occurring*. *Follower that becomes a Winner*." 
- http://dslrbodies.com/newsviews/who-leads-who-follows-who.html


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## MartinF. (Jul 29, 2019)

keithcooper said:


> This is my own quick guess as to what may happen to the Canon camera timeline over the next year or two
> 
> I am not sure about no 5D mkV. (at least I do not hope you are right).
> 
> ...


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## jayphotoworks (Jul 29, 2019)

Woody said:


> Spoken like a true Sony fanboy.
> 
> Canon just launched their FF MILC line. Wait for the line to gain traction, then watch Sony decline... This is not new. Canon has done this many many times in the past.
> 
> ...



If you look at the data, Canon has increased market share, but actually lost quite a bit of camera sales value. They are moving a ton of low cost entry level bodies and those mainstream entry-level consumers that don't care about the removal of 24p, IBIS, 4K, DR, etc. also don't care about carrying a camera at all. Sony OTOH has lost market share, but significantly increased their camera sales value which reflects on them moving a higher quantity of premium priced products. In addition, in May, the A7III's marketshare was more than 40%+ which was more than both the R/RP combined by a large margin. Further in July, Sony is now shown to be at 30% overall MILC marketshare in Japan compared to Canon's 31%. The A7III was still in the top 10 BCN list which is more than 3x the cost of its entry level peers. For a product that gets repeated here for having bad support, bad ergonomics, bad color science, and bad weather sealing, it still manages to place in a top 10 list almost always dominated with entry level systems. Where are the equivalent Canon systems in this list? If you look at all of the data in aggregate, just how well is Canon doing? How sustainable is selling more entry level systems in a dying entry level market? 

I think when someone posts here saying, "Canon should offer feature X..." and it gets quickly discounted because it doesn't represent the market as a whole.. they should really think about that. Perhaps Canon could have gotten away with it in the past, but as that entry level market shrinks.. , who the heck else would they cater to? I think if Canon eventually wipes the floor with Sony, it will most certainly be on the merits of them upping their game, matching their spec sheets and performance rather than play this endless cycle of disappointment interspersed with "well.. we gained market share!" game.


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## Kit. (Jul 29, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> If you look at the data, Canon has increased market share, but actually lost quite a bit of camera sales value.


If you look at the data, Canon has lost much less of camera sales value than it lost of camera bodies count.



jayphotoworks said:


> Where are the equivalent Canon systems in this list?


EOS RP. It just lacks one small but important feature: a kit lens.


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## 12Broncos (Jul 29, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> If Canon has been ‘pushing customers towards the competition for years’, how is it that Canon _gained_ market share over those years? It’s a pity when people make claims that contradict facts and reality, they just end up sounding foolish.
> 
> Equally foolish is being a ‘loyal client’ of any large company. Canon does not reciprocate — they don’t give a damn about you, personally. You’re just a number to them, if that. If the reason you continue to use Canon is brand loyalty, you should switch. Now.
> 
> Of course, maybe you would rather complain but not take action. That seems to be pretty common around here.


Competition is good for the customer. Right now, Sony is the only system I could to go with, they have the 'Mirrorless Cameras right now, with 'Pro features'. There is no competition, it's one and done. Frankly, I hate that reality. All it would take to erase that is an announcement from Canon, preferably within the next two months.


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## Tugela (Jul 29, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yes, Canon by all means should totally and immediately abandon over half of the global ILC market.
> 
> Let me guess, you found an MBA in a box of Cracker Jacks.



You do realize that DSLR shipments this year are 65% of what they were compared to the previous year right? And that is only going to get worse in following years.

Canon sure as hell knows that, even if you don't.


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## sfeinsmith (Jul 29, 2019)

I am not surprised about Canon's second report with a 22% loss. In the article as follows, we successively launched strategic full-frame models into the mirrorless camera market from the second half of last year. Unfortunately, this is not true because Canon has a lot of issues with R series cameras along with a problem with RF lenses. It was a tremendous mistake to abandoned 5D series included high resolution, 5DS R for mirrorless. The incident in 1987, Canon made incident caused customers into a very angry to learn that they rid very reliable lenses, R/FL/FD and FDn unexpectedly. They changed the flange focal distance for FD and EF increased by 2mm to seek incompatible each other. I was right as Canon is going to rid off EF lenses and force everyone to use RF lenses with an enormous cost. We are NOT interested in mirrorless with RF lenses at all. Nikon also loses during the 2nd financial report because of their Z series with problems as much as like Canon.

My friend did not take my advice not to buy a mirrorless camera and lenses. A week later, he was unhappy and returned to the dealer for a refund. He realized the mirrorless camera has no match with his EOS 5D Mark II. His pictures were ruined by flaw hardware in the memory card situation. Two days later, his RF lens stopped working then he used his EF lenses with an adapter to finish his job.

Canon and Nikon are in trouble in selling. I will not surprise they will join Minolta, Konica, and several others by next year. Sony is the winner will be a total mess up because of professional photographers have to use more expensive such as Lecia, Hasselblad, Fujifilm, and others for their business as much as like myself.


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## Tugela (Jul 29, 2019)

Kit. said:


> So, you didn't notice that Canon's camera unit sales are dropping much faster than Canon's camera revenues?
> 
> 
> There is no such thing as "market share in profits". As to market share in revenues, [citation needed]
> ...



Actually, their unit sales are staying more or less constant, unlike most other camera companies. It is their revenue that is dropping like a rock. Most other companies are losing revenue as well, the only company with a big increase in revenue is Sony (even though they sold fewer units over 2018).


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 29, 2019)

Tugela said:


> You do realize that DSLR shipments this year are 65% of what they were compared to the previous year right? And that is only going to get worse in following years.
> 
> Canon sure as hell knows that, even if you don't.


MILC shipments are 87% of last year at this time. Double-digit drop. Canon should stop selling all ILCs, right?

Then again, even though the ILC market is contracting, there were still nearly 11,000,000 sold last year...and half of them were sold by Canon. 









2018 Nikkei interchangeable lens camera market share report (Canon: 49.1%, Nikon: 24.9%, Sony: 13.3%) - Nikon Rumors


Nikkei published their 2018 interchangeable lens camera market share report: Canon: 49.1% Nikon: 24.9% Sony: 13.3% All other companies combined have less than a 13% market share (the top 3 camera manufacturers gained 6.2% in 2018 to a total of 87.3%). While Canon and Sony gained market share...



nikonrumors.com


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## PGSanta (Jul 30, 2019)

Woody said:


> Spoken like a true Sony fanboy.
> 
> Canon just launched their FF MILC line. Wait for the line to gain traction, then watch Sony decline... This is not new. Canon has done this many many times in the past.
> 
> ...



Um... what?

If anything I'm a Canon fanboy, but hey, who cares about facts or anything, right?


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## PGSanta (Jul 30, 2019)

Kit. said:


> It shows that you are not really interested in the actual numbers.




Let's just follow the postings here, because I have no idea what you're trying to express.

I stated: "Canon is gaining market share by one metric, and one alone: total unit sales." <--- The report showing this is widely available on the net, go get it yourself.

You reply: "So, you didn't notice that Canon's camera unit sales are dropping much faster than Canon's camera revenues?" <--- Has 0 relation to what I stated.

I respond: "How does this relate to what I stated?" <--- Because I'm genuinely curious how you'd like to tie this in.

You come back with: "It shows that you are not really interested in the actual numbers." <--- ???

I... I literally have no idea how you believe logical conversation flows, so.... yeah... I'm not going to try.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 30, 2019)

PGSanta said:


> I stated: "Canon is gaining market share by one metric, and one alone: total unit sales."


Your obvious implication is that unit sales are a suboptimal measure of market share based on your ‘one and one alone’ phrasing and the generally trollish nature of your posting history).

Unit sales is the metric in which all major ILC manufacturers except one (Sony) report their market share. So your statement is like stating, "The country’s economy is growing by one metric, and one alone: GDP.” 

Sure, it’s one measure...the most important and relevant one. Unless, of course, you’re trying to obfuscate the data to make yourself look better.


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## PGSanta (Jul 30, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Your obvious implication is that unit sales are a suboptimal measure of market share based on your ‘one and one alone’ phrasing and the generally trollish nature of your posting history).



Trollish because I complain about Canon? We could look at your posting history and point out all the childish insults you throw about, and just as easily make the case you're a troll of a different color. How about we just stick with what's in the thread.

I did express the notion that in a shrinking market unit sales are of secondary importance to revenue... would you like to dispute that? Since, apparently you've got an MBA (from somewhere other than a crackerjack box).



> Sure, it’s one measure...the most important and relevant one. Unless, of course, you’re trying to obfuscate the data to make yourself look better.



It's really not, which is how I know you don't have any MBA... unless YOU'RE into crackerjack.


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## josephandrews222 (Jul 30, 2019)

A rather brand-neutral view of reality in the camera space: 









How Canon, Nikon and other Japanese camera companies are fighting for survival in the Smartphone era


There were 100 million digital cameras shipped in the iPhone's first year, 2007. By 2018, the digital camera market had declined by roughly 80%. Of Japan's eight digital camera makers, only one had sales and profit growth in the most recent year. But the Nikons and Canons of world think they...




www.cnbc.com





There are more than a couple of nuggets in the link, nuggets that should give pause to even the trolls of a different color.

But as I tried to explain in my last post in this thread—some of the brightest pre-med students sometimes have extreme difficulty admitting that they are occasionally wrong...to say that they obfuscate and troll...is being kind (to trolls!).


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## AlanF (Jul 30, 2019)

josephandrews222 said:


> As the ACS (American Chemical Society) bumper sticker stated (way back in the 1980s)--'It takes alkynes to make a chemist' (spoiler: alkynes= all kinds).
> 
> And it takes alkynes to make an interesting forum/bulletin board--I love checking in here daily.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, there are even some professors of chemistry who will never admit they are wrong - I am not taking a jibe at you, but, quite the opposite, extending your observations. Science has its cheats, now highlighted regularly in Retraction Watch https://retractionwatch.com/


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## josephandrews222 (Jul 30, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Unfortunately, there are even some professors of chemistry who will never admit they are wrong - I am not taking a jibe at you, but, quite the opposite, extending your observations. Science has its cheats, now highlighted regularly in Retraction Watch https://retractionwatch.com/



You are 100% correct. 100%.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 30, 2019)

josephandrews222 said:


> But as I tried to explain in my last post in this thread—some of the brightest pre-med students sometimes have extreme difficulty admitting that they are occasionally wrong...to say that they obfuscate and troll...is being kind (to trolls!).


The phenotype seems to become enhanced once they reach medical school.  In spite of that, I do miss teaching.


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## Woody (Jul 30, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> In addition, in May, the A7III's marketshare was more than 40%+ which was more than both the R/RP combined by a large margin. Further in July, Sony is now shown to be at 30% overall MILC marketshare in Japan compared to Canon's 31%. The A7III was still in the top 10 BCN list which is more than 3x the cost of its entry level peers.



Curious where you got these numbers from. BCN most recent *monthly* data is only up to May 2019.

According to BCN's *weekly* data, A7III is no longer in BCN top 10 list. Nowhere close:








カテゴリ別 ランキング - BCN＋R


毎週更新！　BCNランキング週間売れ筋ランキング




www.bcnretail.com




A7III is at 22 and 23 (previously 13 and 19). However, it is true the A7III is the bestselling FF ILC camera in the Japanese market. 

It is not difficult to beat the A7III though. Canon just has to release some cheap and lightweight FF MILC lenses... something very lacking in Canon's current RF lens lineup.



jayphotoworks said:


> Perhaps Canon could have gotten away with it in the past, but as that entry level market shrinks.. , who the heck else would they cater to? I think if Canon eventually wipes the floor with Sony, it will most certainly be on the merits of them upping their game, matching their spec sheets and performance rather than play this endless cycle of disappointment interspersed with "well.. we gained market share!" game.



That is my point. Ultimately, Canon will dominate again 'cos they have demonstrated this ability over and over again through the history of cameras.


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## unfocused (Jul 30, 2019)

josephandrews222 said:


> A rather brand-neutral view of reality in the camera space:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting. I did not realize that the Fuji Instax was categorized as a digital camera. That makes the collapse of the traditional digital point and shoot market even worse than I thought. 

After some really good years, it sounds as though the interchangeable lens camera market is likely to return to what it was like in the pre-digital days, with enthusiasts and professionals dominating the market. Except that the professional market today is only a fraction of what it once was. 

As I read the industry news on this site, it appears that most camera manufacturers are still making a profit, just not nearly the profit they once made or even what they projected to make. As long as companies like Canon, Nikon and Sony can continue to earn a profit on photography equipment, I doubt they will abandon the market. But, I expect we may see less money available for research and development and longer refresh cycles. This was probably inevitable anyway, as digital technology matures. 

A big unknown is the aging out of the enthusiast market and whether or not older buyers will be replaced by a younger generation. If this site is in any way typical of the enthusiast market, it's pretty clear that it skews much older than the general population. Despite all the debate on this site revolving around full frame cameras, it is likely that the future viability of camera manufacturers is more closely tied to the success of APS-C and higher-end non-interchangeable lens bodies.


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## sfeinsmith (Jul 30, 2019)

Tugela said:


> Actually, their unit sales are staying more or less constant, unlike most other camera companies. It is their revenue that is dropping like a rock. Most other companies are losing revenue as well, the only company with a big increase in revenue is Sony (even though they sold fewer units over 2018).




You have not to realizeiI have been a professional photographer sincere 1960. I tend to buy my equipment from neither Adorama or BH. Canon made a huge mistake in the market to abandon 5D series for mirrorless. Since they released R series have many issues. The same incident with Nikon. I fed up and purchased used 5DS R to continue my work. Many people fed up with problems from R cameras and RF lenses stopped working.


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## jayphotoworks (Jul 30, 2019)

Woody said:


> Curious where you got these numbers from. BCN most recent *monthly* data is only up to May 2019.
> 
> According to BCN's *weekly* data, A7III is no longer in BCN top 10 list. Nowhere close:
> 
> ...



This was the report in May 2019 showing the trends of FF MILC between the A7II, A7III, R, RP and Z6:









フルサイズミラーレス「EOS RP」が苦戦中？　価格優位は決め手にならず - BCN＋R


フルサイズミラーレス市場の起爆剤として、キヤノンがNo.1戦略の要に据えて3月14日に発売した「EOS RP」が苦戦している。




www.bcnretail.com





This BCN report shows the performance for almost the entire month of June 2019, and not just the weekly results as you have referenced:









6月のミラーレス一眼販売動向、ソニー急上昇でキヤノンに迫る - BCN＋R


全国の家電量販店やECショップでPOSデータを集計する「BCNランキング」によると、2019年6月のミラーレス一眼デジタルカメラの販売台数前年比は98.4％と前年並み。




www.bcnretail.com


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 30, 2019)

keithcooper said:


> This is my own quick guess as to what may happen to the Canon camera timeline over the next year or two
> 
> View attachment 185819
> 
> ...


I think we'll still see a 5D Mark V at some point. Probably after the next round of R bodies is released and the mirrorless hype dies down a little. The 5D's are profitable, require very little develpment cost and are very popular with wedding and event shooters. Despite all of the mirrorless hysteria the 5D Mark IV sells well and remains one of the world's best general purpose camera's. Canon isn't going to be able to keep marketing the 5D Mark IV indefinitely and I can't see them walking away from a market that's been so profitable. Wedding photographers are among Canon's most loyal and profitable customers and 5 years from now plenty of them will still be using DSLR's. 

Given the direction that EOS R lens development is taking, I'd say Canon is targeting wedding pro's with it's new R platform but I think there will still be a substantial market for a high end DSLR for at least the next several years.


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## 12Broncos (Jul 30, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Interesting. I did not realize that the Fuji Instax was categorized as a digital camera. That makes the collapse of the traditional digital point and shoot market even worse than I thought.
> 
> After some really good years, it sounds as though the interchangeable lens camera market is likely to return to what it was like in the pre-digital days, with enthusiasts and professionals dominating the market. Except that the professional market today is only a fraction of what it once was.
> 
> ...





CanonFanBoy said:


> This -------> "...we will foster trust in our products." The statement refers to professionals. I am not one of those. However, this is why I like Canon. I trust their products. In my opinion, Canon fosters trust at all levels.
> 
> From products that are dependable and reliable, to their service when things go wrong. I trust Canon. Canon gets my $.


I agree and I understand people who have invested money in DSLR's, I had one DSLR Camera and one lens, it was easy for me to jump to Mirrorless, I just sold my camera/ lens. I'm patiently waiting for a Pro/Prosumer Mirrorless offering from Canon. I can hold out as long as it takes, this is why Canon sales have slowed. (people are waiting) Why spend money on an outgoing dinosaur 'DSLR'? Perhaps Canon should come up with a way to honor the DSLR faithful and come up with a plan to get them to switch to mirrorless. It makes sense to have one system and polish that system with quality glass/cameras, so that system flourishes. What's the sense in babying a dying breed? That would take some money and some innovation, but doesn't the saying ring true, "It takes money to make money."


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## unfocused (Jul 30, 2019)

12Broncos said:


> ...Perhaps Canon should come up with a way to honor the DSLR faithful and come up with a plan to get them to switch to mirrorless. It makes sense to have one system and polish that system with quality glass/cameras, so that system flourishes. What's the sense in babying a dying breed? ...



It's premature to say that DSLRs are a dying breed and that mirrorless is the future. That may be the case, but one cannot confidently predict that today. Or, at least, it would be foolish to do so. And, for a company, it would be incredibly risky. It is entirely possible that DSLRs will continue well into the future, with both formats living side by side, just as APS-C and Full Frame currently do. Sony had nothing to lose, so they went all-in on mirrorless. But Nikon and Canon are in a much different situation. Technology may advance to the point where mirrorless can seamlessly replace DSLRs, but we aren't there yet and we probably won't be there for some years, if ever. 

In the meantime, neither Canon nor Nikon seem to be having any problem at all maintaining and improving on both formats, Canon, in particular, seems to be doing a fine job today of "polishing" the R system "with quality glass/cameras" -- more lenses are on the way, the entire EF lens system works seamlessly with the R and, if the rumors are to be believed, there are at least a couple of new R bodies in the works.


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## stevelee (Jul 31, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Your definition of "getting a leg up" is likely different from what Costco and Walmart use.



Brings canine imagery to mind.


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## Woody (Aug 1, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> This was the report in May 2019 showing the trends of FF MILC between the A7II, A7III, R, RP and Z6:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You got all the reports mixed up. One reports FF MILC market alone and another MILC market alone. The BCNRetail data that I am interested in covers ALL ILC (both DSLRs and MILCs). Sony is the first to commit to FF MILCs, several years ahead of the rest, so it's not a surprise they have the lion's share of the market now.


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## Ah-Keong (Aug 2, 2019)

Hope Canon goes into m43 with Olympus and Panasonic....


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## Woody (Aug 5, 2019)

Woody said:


> Canon sold 1.93 million interchangeable lens cameras from Jan-Jun 2019. Now waiting for CIPA numbers to get an estimate of Canon's market share.



According to CIPA, number of cameras shipped for Jan-Jun 2019 period is 3.93 million. So, Canon managed to maintain their market share of ~ 49% (at least).


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## keithcooper (Aug 7, 2019)

Ah-Keong said:


> Hope Canon goes into m43 with Olympus and Panasonic....


Not sure which is more likely, a range of m43 cameras, lots of new compact cameras, or a new range of film cameras ;-)


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## Ah-Keong (Aug 13, 2019)

keithcooper said:


> Not sure which is more likely, a range of m43 cameras, lots of new compact cameras, or a new range of film cameras ;-)



Or maybe a new mount for Medium Format to challenge Fujifilm


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## SecureGSM (Aug 13, 2019)

Ah-Keong said:


> Or maybe a new mount for Medium Format to challenge Fujifilm


I lock the option 'E" : none of the above


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