# 7D Mark II on Cameraegg



## Cariboucoach (Jan 11, 2014)

I saw this on cameraegg this morning.

http://www.cameraegg.org/is-7d-mark-ii-finally-coming/
http://www.cameraegg.org/7d-mark-ii-price-around-2000-to-be-announced-first-half-of-2014/

This is a rumor forum after all.


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## Don Haines (Jan 11, 2014)

Cariboucoach said:


> I saw this on cameraegg this morning.
> 
> http://www.cameraegg.org/is-7d-mark-ii-finally-coming/
> http://www.cameraegg.org/7d-mark-ii-price-around-2000-to-be-announced-first-half-of-2014/
> ...



I wonder if it will be ready for the Olympics....


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## 9VIII (Jan 11, 2014)

I really hope they kick it up to at least 24MP. Something like 28 would have me hollering and hooting.

I'm still halfway convinced I want a Nikon 1 series just because of the pixel density.


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## IslanderMV (Jan 11, 2014)

My crystal ball says it will use the same sensor as the 70D.

The new 7Dm2 and 70D will probablly have the same relationship that the 60D does to the current 7D. 

If I remember correctly, the original price of the 7D was about $1800. If the new price is about $2000 that seems like a reasonable increase.


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## Kiboko (Jan 11, 2014)

Bring it on!!!


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## Marauder (Jan 12, 2014)

IslanderMV said:


> My crystal ball says it will use the same sensor as the 70D.
> 
> The new 7Dm2 and 70D will probablly have the same relationship that the 60D does to the current 7D.
> 
> If I remember correctly, the original price of the 7D was about $1800. If the new price is about $2000 that seems like a reasonable increase.



I think the principal difference here is that the 7D introduced the 18 MP sensor and the 60D followed it. Since the 7D II (or whatever it gets called) is following the 70D, it makes sense that they would develop a brand new sensor the 7D II and use the 70D sensor for the Rebels, in order to help justify the premium for the 7D II. Also, we've already seen one rebuttal rumour from Canon saying the 7D II would have a different sensor than the 70D. Of course, it's all just speculation at this point--but that's part of the fun!


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## Click (Jan 12, 2014)

Finally, there is a glimmer of hope for the 7D II


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## jrista (Jan 12, 2014)

Marauder said:


> IslanderMV said:
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> 
> > My crystal ball says it will use the same sensor as the 70D.
> ...



Agree. That would seem more logical to me. If Canon gimps the 7D II by reusing the 70D sensor, it won't be nearly as successful as the original 7D. It really needs to be more revolutionary than evolutionary.


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## mkabi (Jan 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> Marauder said:
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> > IslanderMV said:
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So you're saying that the t2i, followed by the 60D, followed by the t3i, t4i, and now t5i, all ate away into the success of the 7D?


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## East Wind Photography (Jan 12, 2014)

Kiboko said:


> Bring it on!!!



I'm just waiting for the preorders to start. Whatever they do it will be better than the old 7D and worth an upgrade.


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## Don Haines (Jan 12, 2014)

mkabi said:


> jrista said:
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> > Marauder said:
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realistically, the only real advantage of the 7D over the 60D were the auto-focus system and a faster burst rate. Only a small portion of the market wanted those features and understood their advantages, plus better sealing and joystick, but the 60D had the obvious advantage of price, and made it's mark as the top selling APS-C "enthusiast" camera. I'm sure that it outsold the 7D at least 10 to 1.... but that does not make it a better camera. The T3i is still the best selling Canon DSLR and that is because the camera can be bought with a lens for under $350.

All these cameras would "bite into the success" of the 7D to some degree, but not in any significant way. Those that realized that the 7D was what they wanted would buy the 7D, those that didn't would buy something else.

It will be the same with the 7D2. Most people will not buy it. A rebel, the 70D, the 6D, the SL1, or the EOS-M, will meet their needs at a lower price. Some will want what the 1DX or 5D3 have to offer. For the people who want a camera for what the 7D2 is designed for, it will be the right choice and that's where they will go.... and just like before we end up with:
7D2 - pro level
70D - enthusiast
Rebels, Sl1, Eos-M - mass market


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## Marauder (Jan 12, 2014)

mkabi said:


> jrista said:
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> > Marauder said:
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Not at all. But the reason they didn't is because the 7D _introduced_ the 18 MP sensor, rather than inheriting it from a prior camera. Generally speaking, you want your flagship product (and the 7D II will be the flagship of the APS-C cameras) to introduce the new technology. Then you can 'trickle it down' to the lower, follow-on models. Given its price and flagship status, I think the 7D II will have a brand-new sensor, which might then begin to appear in the Rebel line in 2015.


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## Marauder (Jan 12, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> mkabi said:
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> > jrista said:
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Yes, exactly. The 7D II will be a wildlife and sports powerhouse, for those on a budget, who cannot afford a 1DX, as a backup to the 1DX and as a step up from the 70D for those who outgrow its potential.


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## jrista (Jan 12, 2014)

mkabi said:


> jrista said:
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Where in the world did you get that? I never even implied such a thing...

They all FOLLOWED the 7D. The point was that the 7D introduced something *new*...something that did NOT reuse prior tech. I am saying that the 7D II should do the same...introduce something *NEW*! Something like, say, a NEW 24mp APS-C sensor maybe.


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## mkabi (Jan 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> mkabi said:
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> > jrista said:
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Mathematical induction - If A = B and B = C, then A = C.
Similarly, if A = B and B = C, then B = A and C = B.

You just said that if the same sensor of 70D was in 7D Mark 2 then it won't be as successful as 7D.
If you still don't get it, suppose A is 7D and B is 60D and C = t3i.
A = B - few features & B = C - few features.
Suppose also A2 is 7D Mark II and B2 is 70D.
If A ~ A2 & B ~ B2, then you can also make the assumption that you are saying that the t2i, 60D, t3i and so on is eating into the success of the 7D.

All I'm saying is that it will also be A2 = B2 - few features.
No matter what you think the timeline is... 70D coming before the 7D mark 2 or after... it shouldn't eat into its success, cause it didn't do that to the current 7D.

It was revolutionary because the 7D was the first of its kind, but now its not first of its kind... its the second of its kind.


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## jrista (Jan 12, 2014)

mkabi said:


> jrista said:
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Um...what? The 7D is still the first of it's kind. How in the world do you deduce that the 7D is now, magically, the "second" of it's kind? (Wouldn't the 70D be "second"...seeing as it came "after"?) And how did you relate any of the Txi's to anything I said? Anyway...let me clear up my analogy for you: 

The 7D INTRODUCED something NEW. Actually, it introduced several things that were new. It introduced the 18mp APS-C sensor, it introduced the 19pt AF system, and it was the first 8fps APS-C DSLR. The NEW things that the 7D INTRODUCED were what made it a unique, very effective and highly successful camera. It was...in its time...more than just a simple evolution. It was something more radical, maybe not exactly revolutionary, but a hell of a lot more than *simply evolutionary tm Canon*. 

Now, deriving from that...the 7D II should ALSO INTRODUCE something NEW. The 7D II should also be more than simply evolutionary...it should be something more radical. The 7D II should INTRODUCE something NEW. Preferably, it would up the ante on those same three things...24mp APS-C sensor, reticular AF system (41pt, 51pt, something), and 10fps. It would be the first APS-C camera to get such features in a single package. That would make it compelling. That would make it unique, and particularly effective at the market it's targeted at. That would set it apart from the 70D. That would give it the same kind of compelling featureset, yet nicely improved for the modern day, that the original 7D had.

I'm not sure where you got your ABCs...but technically speaking, the problem wasn't a mathematical one. ;P It was a simple extrapolation, and there was no relationship between A (the 7D) and your B or C in my prior post. There was "A" (the 7D) and "B" (the 7D II) and "C" (the 70D). "A" was disruptive. Therefor, "B" should be similarly disruptive, in order to carry on the title that "A" once did. If "A" simply inherited "C"s sensor...well, then it wouldn't really be disruptive, would it? It would merely be another lackluster evolution...a "me too" product that, once again, reused a pre-existing Canon sensor in a flagship product that should be something more. That's something Canon is famous for, and it is exceptionally boring...and something they should break away from (at least for professional-grade products in the xD line...I don't really think the Rebel line matters much, so as far as I am concerned, they can reuse parts to their hearts content in the Rebel and even xxD lines).

I think most everyone else got my intended meaning...so I was kind of surprised to see all the Txi's showing up in your post along with a complete inversion of what I was trying to say.


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## Rienzphotoz (Jan 12, 2014)

mkabi said:


> jrista said:
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> > mkabi said:
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What utter rubbish! ... jrista, never said or implied any of the stuff you are imagining. He was making a simple point and you are making it into a complicated for no reason.


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## Rienzphotoz (Jan 12, 2014)

Click said:


> Finally, there is a glimmer of hope for the 7D II


+1


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## Viggo (Jan 12, 2014)

Will the 100-400 join in on the release? ;D seems like it be a pretty brutal combo.

I, for one, hope they make it 20mp for low light performance. Helps for speed also.
I remember having my very dissapointing 1d3 when a friend bought the 7d when it's brand new. I was jealous, lol. (Yeah, nice story grandpa) lol. But the 7d didn't hold back, it went all in, and I think that is a superb line to follow. All things made "all-in" are usually great successes . Same with 1dx compared to the 1d3 and 1d4 imo. And it is what made the D3s the legend it is, they went all in... Keep it up Canon !


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## funkboy (Jan 12, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> realistically, the only real advantage of the 7D over the 60D were the auto-focus system and a faster burst rate.



I'd add:


better viewfinder (both in coverage and the intelligent LCD overlay)
better handling
tougher (build, seals, etc)

To me, the 7D feels like a "pro" camera & the 60D is more "prosumer".


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## wsmith96 (Jan 12, 2014)

for me, I'm just happy to see an increase in postings about this. Makes me believe we'll see something soon, and I'm ready for an upgrade from my T1i.


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## zim (Jan 12, 2014)

Viggo said:


> I, for one, hope they make it 20mp for low light performance. Helps for speed also.
> I remember having my very dissapointing 1d3 when a friend bought the 7d when it's brand new. I was jealous, lol. (Yeah, nice story grandpa) lol. But the 7d didn't hold back, it went all in, and I think that is a superb line to follow. All things made "all-in" are usually great successes . Same with 1dx compared to the 1d3 and 1d4 imo. And it is what made the D3s the legend it is, they went all in... Keep it up Canon !



+1

That’s it right there, will this be an ‘all in’ camera or compromised. If those OP links and previous speculation on this site are correct it sounds to me like its going to be an ‘all in’ camera carrying on the 7D tradition.

I don’t care what the MP will be we know it will be at least 18, great.
AF in 1Dx territory, ambitious! but wow, but lets say 5D3, great.
We know that image quality will be at least as good as the 70D which is a step up from the 7D, great.
We know the ergonomics will be as good as the 7D, great.
FPS at least 8, great.

What will be interesting for me will be things like the card(s) choice/ slot count and how deep the buffer will be. USB 2 or 3, in software will it have proper auto ISO with ISO comp from the get go? these are secondary things, not show stoppers in any way but indicators of ‘all in’

I’m really really looking forward to this announcement because in a couple of years time I’ll either have a 7DII a 6DII or the 5DIII depending on my needs at that time.


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## Don Haines (Jan 12, 2014)

funkboy said:


> Don Haines said:
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> > realistically, the only real advantage of the 7D over the 60D were the auto-focus system and a faster burst rate.
> ...


There were lots of little differences, but they added up... There was also the dual memory cards and AFMA...... Like I said, pro and enthusiast......

If the 70D is still the enthusiast camera, and it is definitely a fine camera, the features that make the 7D2 a pro level camera must be going to be nice..... I eagerly await the official specs....


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## pdirestajr (Jan 12, 2014)

My prediction is that the 7D has tons of "awesome" new features- for video.
Maybe 2 card slots, a fancy headphone jack, 1080 60p...


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## DanielW (Jan 12, 2014)

IslanderMV said:


> My crystal ball says it will use the same sensor as the 70D.



Hopefully you couldn't see right because your crystal ball lacks enough dynamic range.


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## MichaelHodges (Jan 12, 2014)

Unless the low ISO noise and dynamic range has improved, I can't get too excited. Even the water shots at ISO 100 don't look right.


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## nicku (Jan 12, 2014)

DanielW said:


> IslanderMV said:
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> > My crystal ball says it will use the same sensor as the 70D.
> ...



;D ;D ;D


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## bvukich (Jan 12, 2014)

mkabi said:


> jrista said:
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The 7D came out with a new sensor. A year later the 60D used basically the same sensor. And six months after that the T3i came with almost the same sensor again. That's how parts/tech are expected, and usually do trickle down.

That is much different than a new sensor being introduced with the 70D (July 2013) and then maybe a year later the 7D II get's it's hand-me-down. That will not sit well with most users that care about that sort of thing.


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## mkabi (Jan 12, 2014)

Rienzphotoz said:


> What utter rubbish! ... jrista, never said or implied any of the stuff you are imagining. He was making a simple point and you are making it into a complicated for no reason.



:




jrista said:


> If Canon gimps the 7D II by reusing the 70D sensor, it won't be nearly as successful as the original 7D.



Ok, fine.
Lets start over, why won't the 7D mark 2 be as successful as the 7D, if they used the same sensor as the 70D?


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## Don Haines (Jan 13, 2014)

mkabi said:


> Ok, fine.
> Lets start over, why won't the 7D mark 2 be as successful as the 7D, if they used the same sensor as the 70D?



I think people are confusing successful and being a better camera.

There is almost universal agreement that the 7D was a better camera than the 60D.
The 60D sold far better than the 7D, so it was a more successful camera.

I would expect to see the same pattern for the 7D2 and the 70D.


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## jdramirez (Jan 13, 2014)

sensor sensor sensor. That's all y'all talk about. Why is pixel density such a deal dealer? I rarely use every pixel in an image and I presently complain about the files size of my raw images. 

I don't need a 7d, but if it were a solid upgrade over the 70d, I would think that would be satisfactory to a sufficient number of buyers.

In the abstract, sure everyone wants a body that is 30 megapixels 10 fps, usable iso of 6400, 4k video, dual card slots, touch screen, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, and a hot Asian model with every purchase.

But in reality... being a bit better can be significantly better for certain individuals.


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## 2n10 (Jan 13, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> sensor sensor sensor. That's all y'all talk about. Why is pixel density such a deal dealer? I rarely use every pixel in an image and I presently complain about the files size of my raw images.
> 
> I don't need a 7d, but if it were a solid upgrade over the 70d, I would think that would be satisfactory to a sufficient number of buyers.
> 
> ...



Nicely stated, about the hot Asian model.... ;D


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## AvTvM (Jan 13, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> In the abstract, sure everyone wants a body that is 30 megapixels 10 fps, usable iso of 6400, 4k video, dual card slots, touch screen, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, and a hot Asian model with every purchase.



I'd prefer it came without video, but with 2 hot Asian models instead. ;D


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## K-amps (Jan 13, 2014)

Doesn't the T2i have the same sensor and it came "before" the 7D? or am I too tired to think straight... ? ???


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## East Wind Photography (Jan 13, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> sensor sensor sensor. That's all y'all talk about. Why is pixel density such a deal dealer? I rarely use every pixel in an image and I presently complain about the files size of my raw images.
> 
> I don't need a 7d, but if it were a solid upgrade over the 70d, I would think that would be satisfactory to a sufficient number of buyers.
> 
> ...



The biggest deal about pixel density is the depthness of cropping. For those of us shooting wildlife we mostly have to crop...often pretty deep as we cannot get our subjects to cooperate most of the time to allow for full frame images. More MP gives us more to work with.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jan 13, 2014)

K-amps said:


> Doesn't the T2i have the same sensor and it came "before" the 7D? or am I too tired to think straight... ? ???


The much criticized sensor Canon 18 megapixel APS-C first appeared on the 7D. Then it was the T2i, 60D, several Rebels, and then EOS-M. I may be wrong, but I have the impression that the best balance between sharpness and noise was achieved with the T2i. If we consider also the in-camera JPEG processing, then T5i has the nicest images of all cameras that use the same (almost) 18 megapixel sensor.


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## jdramirez (Jan 13, 2014)

East Wind Photography said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > sensor sensor sensor. That's all y'all talk about. Why is pixel density such a deal dealer? I rarely use every pixel in an image and I presently complain about the files size of my raw images.
> ...



I shoot sports so I'm not nearly as close to the action as I'd like to be so I crop into my images as well. I suppose if you have exhausted every option, a 2x teleconvertor, a 400mm + lens, etc... then yes cropping can be a last resort. But if 18 mp can't get it done, 24mp Wil be better but not a panacea.


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## Sanaraken (Jan 13, 2014)

I got tired of waiting for the 7DII to upgrade my 60D. So I just got the 5DIII. If the 7DII shoots 10fps, 61 point AF and has thr same sensor as the 70D. I would be tempted to get one. Because I cant afford the 1DX.


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## DanielW (Jan 13, 2014)

Sanaraken said:


> I got tired of waiting for the 7DII to upgrade my 60D. So I just got the 5DIII. If the 7DII shoots 10fps, 61 point AF and has thr same sensor as the 70D. I would be tempted to get one. Because I cant afford the 1DX.



Well, I will keep on waiting... 
Good luck with the 5D3!


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## pedro (Jan 13, 2014)

DanielW said:


> Sanaraken said:
> 
> 
> > I got tired of waiting for the 7DII to upgrade my 60D. So I just got the 5DIII. If the 7DII shoots 10fps, 61 point AF and has thr same sensor as the 70D. I would be tempted to get one. Because I cant afford the 1DX.
> ...



The 5D3 is an excellent choice. I remember, one or two years into my old 30D I pondered on a 7D. But then I changed my mind to save up for FF, what was a 5D2 for me back then. Well, as I learned of the AF issues and the expectations towards its replacement I took the second mile and waited out for the 5D3 which I purchased in August 12. Still paid the 3.5k premium, but there ain't no regrets. Still in the learning curve...But it is more camera than I ever can handle...So if low light IQ is an issue, go 5D3 or 6D. I'd never go back again.


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## Rockets95 (Jan 13, 2014)

I am hoping the 7D2 is to the 7D, as the 5D3 was to the 5D2 and is compelling enough to make me want to upgrade. I am specifically looking and hoping for a sizable improvements in DN, High ISO Performance and the 5D3 AF system or similar.


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## preppyak (Jan 13, 2014)

The thing that throws me on this rumor is that there are apparently still multiple test versions of a camera that is a month away from announcing? That would mean that it either won't actually be available for a few months after the announcement, or, that the rumored announced date is wrong (and it'll be available when they announce).

There's an amount of time it takes for them to churn out lots of cameras and have them in US retailers; and I have to think that <1 months is too short for it to be ready. The original 7D was announced in Sept and shipped by the end of the month.


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## jrista (Jan 13, 2014)

preppyak said:


> The thing that throws me on this rumor is that there are apparently still multiple test versions of a camera that is a month away from announcing? That would mean that it either won't actually be available for a few months after the announcement, or, that the rumored announced date is wrong (and it'll be available when they announce).
> 
> There's an amount of time it takes for them to churn out lots of cameras and have them in US retailers; and I have to think that <1 months is too short for it to be ready. The original 7D was announced in Sept and shipped by the end of the month.



It seems the standard MO for pro-grade camera releases is to paper release, then actually release "some time later". The "some time later" could be merely another month, or it could be many months, depending on the actual issues that field test cameras have. 

Also, as far as "multiple models", that would pretty much always be the case, as they would all be prototypes. Each prototype, if handed out at different stages of development, would have differences, even though in the end they are all working towards the same end product model.


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## East Wind Photography (Jan 13, 2014)

Rockets95 said:


> I am hoping the 7D2 is to the 7D, as the 5D3 was to the 5D2 and is compelling enough to make me want to upgrade. I am specifically looking and hoping for a sizable improvements in DN, High ISO Performance and the 5D3 AF system or similar.



I am so disappointed with the 7d by today's standards that any improvement will be worth the upgrade. Just show me where to sign...


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## 20Dave (Jan 14, 2014)

Sanaraken said:


> I got tired of waiting for the 7DII to upgrade my 60D. So I just got the 5DIII. If the 7DII shoots 10fps, 61 point AF and has thr same sensor as the 70D. I would be tempted to get one. Because I cant afford the 1DX.



I did *almost* the same thing, except I was upgrading from a 20D :. And, I did it last spring, when rumors were hot and heavy about the 7DII coming out. I shoot mostly birds (purely amateur hobby), so the perceived 7DII specs were looking terrific, but I decided that I didn't want to wait for a rumor. I'm not looking back and love the 5D3, and I'm sure that you will too. It works great with the 400mm f/5.6 and a 1.4x Kenko TC.

Good luck with your new camera.

Dave


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## 9VIII (Jan 14, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> sensor sensor sensor. That's all y'all talk about. Why is pixel density such a deal dealer? I rarely use every pixel in an image and I presently complain about the files size of my raw images.
> 
> I don't need a 7d, but if it were a solid upgrade over the 70d, I would think that would be satisfactory to a sufficient number of buyers.
> 
> ...



After the chat I've had in the AA thread, I'm pretty set on 64 Megapixels now. Nothing less will do.
Don't worry, Moore's law hasn't run out yet, and 10TB hard drives are in the works.


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## GMCPhotographics (Jan 14, 2014)

East Wind Photography said:


> Rockets95 said:
> 
> 
> > I am hoping the 7D2 is to the 7D, as the 5D3 was to the 5D2 and is compelling enough to make me want to upgrade. I am specifically looking and hoping for a sizable improvements in DN, High ISO Performance and the 5D3 AF system or similar.
> ...



The problem Canon has with the 7DII is that it will certainly rob sales from the 1Dx. If 10 fps @ 18mp with 61 point AF is true then it really will be a 1.6x cropped 1Dx. I suspect that Canon will leave the IQ much the same as the 70D, it's got to hold back on something for this camera. 
Naturally we all want a camera with less video compromises (the 7D has a really strong AA filter), far better noise handling threashold and a DR to match the current Sony Exmore CMOS sensors. But I seriously doubt that Canon will invest in sensor tech for this camera and I think they will brin in the new tech for the 1Dx replacement or it's high MP cousin.


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## jrista (Jan 14, 2014)

GMCPhotographics said:


> East Wind Photography said:
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I dunno...if people have the dough for a 1D X, they will be getting a 1D X. There are so many other features of the 1D X that will trounce any variant of the 7D II, it's still worth the cash. For everyone else, well, they weren't going to be buying a 1D X in the first place due to cost, so the 7D II won't really be stealing anything...it would actually boost total sales for Canon well above any potential "conversion loss"...millions could buy the 7D II over the next few years, so even if Canon loses a few 1D X sales a year, it simply won't matter.

Regarding the AA filter...there have been patents and papers about electromagnetically attenuated AA filters that can be adjusted (either automatically, based on seen preview analysis or camera mode detection (still or video), or by a user controllable setting.) A user attenuated AA filter would be the ultimate solution, IMO. You can attenuate it down for say landscapes, and crank it up for video. Or simply tune the AA blur factor according to the detail levels in the scene...if you have a lot of high frequency detail, jack it up...if not, drop it to it's minium setting. That would make my day...hell, that would make my year, if Canon included something like that in one of their cameras.


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## unfocused (Jan 14, 2014)

I really can't see any circumstance where the 7DII is going to rob sales from a 1Dx. 

After reading numerous posts here on the limitations of sensor technology in general, I'm pretty well convinced that even under the best case possible, a brand new APS-C sensor isn't going to equal the current generation of full frame sensors. I expect to see some improvement and think it will be a different and better sensor than the 70D.

But, even with a better sensor, comparable frame rate to the 1Dx and comparable autofocus, it is still not going to be equal to the 1Dx. In addition to the significant sensor advantages of teh 1Dx, I seriously doubt the 7DII will have the integrated grip and bombproof build of the 1Dx. 

Finally, I just don't believe companies worry that much about one of their own products "robbing" sales from another product. In the case of camera systems especially, I think they look at consumer behavior and know that ultimately they are going to get about the same amount of sales from a customer regardless of the pricing of individual products. Buying a less expensive body, just means a bigger investment in lenses, strobes and other accessories. 

The real worry is keeping a customer from choosing another brand and that provides a much stronger incentive for Canon to offer as much as possible in it various models.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 14, 2014)

9VIII said:


> Don't worry, Moore's law hasn't run out yet, and 10TB hard drives are in the works.



HDDs are too slow. I'll wait for the 10 TB SSDs to come out.


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## DanielW (Jan 14, 2014)

unfocused said:


> The real worry is keeping a customer from choosing another brand and that provides a much stronger incentive for Canon to offer as much as possible in it various models.



Exactly what I think. You impose too many restrictions and people will look for some other manufacturer who does not.


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## jrista (Jan 14, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > Don't worry, Moore's law hasn't run out yet, and 10TB hard drives are in the works.
> ...



I've been amazed at the recent prices of larger SSDs. 500Gb SSDs hit as low as $320 last month, and 1Tb SSDs hit as low as $640. Kind of exciting, seeing the larger ones start to come down in price (especially when it still costs over $200 for a 200GB SSD, and $150 for a 128Gb SSD...  ). I wonder how long it will be before 2Tb SSD drives drop below the $1000 mark.


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## ewg963 (Jan 15, 2014)

GMCPhotographics said:


> East Wind Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Rockets95 said:
> ...


 I don't think the 7D II rob sales from the DX. I've been saving for the 1 DX for many months now and on the verge of the getting one. I did have a fleeting thought maybe I wait for the 7D II I can then purchase that along with the 5D Mark III. I'm thinking maybe I can have the best of the both worlds but I held that 1DX again and felt the solid build. There's no doubt I'm getting the DX. The 1 DX and 7DII will cater to two different markets IMHO...


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## jdramirez (Jan 15, 2014)

ewg963 said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
> 
> 
> > East Wind Photography said:
> ...



I occasionally wonder if I will be hit with the 1dx bug. My logic in the past has been... if you have the money and your lenses are really good, the logical step is to improve your body. 

But there are also times when I use my daughter's old xti and I think... this generations old body can get me wow photos too... so why do I have a $3000 body and by extension, why would I ever need an $8000 body.

And I know the answer... because I can't use the xti all the time with a tripod in ideal light. But it does still bother me just a little. 

If you don't mind me asking, what does the 1dx bring to the table that a 5d mkiii can't provide? I know the specs, but I'm just curious what you value to be worth the extra cash?


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## jdramirez (Jan 15, 2014)

6800, not 8000... I guess that means I haven't been paying attention to the price of something I can't afford...


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## funkboy (Jan 16, 2014)

East Wind Photography said:


> The biggest deal about pixel density is the depthness of cropping.



And pushing existing lenses beyond their capabilities...


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## bdunbar79 (Jan 16, 2014)

What does the 1Dx offer over the 5D3? Well, I suppose it's about what you are shooting. I've shot with both a fair amount during sports for sure. The 1Dx AF is more accurate and seems to be quicker. If a player is running, during the burst of exposures, the player stays in focus, even while moving, that is, the AF can still track even during a burst of 8 frames. The 5D3 did not have this luxury, and the frame rate wasn't nearly as much. Swimming comes to mind, when during the butterfly, you want the swimmer at the top of the motion. With the 1Dx's burst rate, this is easier to capture at the perfect time, vs. the 5D3. Not to say it cannot be done, however.

Shutter durability is definitely a huge factor. There are other things though. In the 1Dx you can set min/max apertures/shutters/ISO's. This allows you to use EC with auto ISO, and still select your shutter speed and aperture (or any combination). Certainly not a feature in other series models. I use a f/2.8 lens and set min ap to f/2.8 and max to f/1.0 in Tv mode. This locks the camera at f/2.8. I then choose a shutter speed at say 1/500, and using CWA metering can use auto ISO and still set an EC value of +2/3. So I'm effectively doing +2/3 EC in manual mode with auto ISO and every single shot is +2/3. How cool!! This can be very, very useful and can contribute to my lazy lifestyle! Not the best in every situation, but certainly where light is low and even.

RAW files are also easier to clean up and edit. Not a huge difference, but a huge difference at ISO 6400 for sure. Shoot mRAW with each once at 6400 and see how much better the processing internally is for the 1Dx than the 5D3. It's amazing.

It is worth the extra price over the 5D3, for me at least.


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## jdramirez (Jan 16, 2014)

bdunbar79 said:


> What does the 1Dx offer over the 5D3? Well, I suppose it's about what you are shooting. I've shot with both a fair amount during sports for sure. The 1Dx AF is more accurate and seems to be quicker. If a player is running, during the burst of exposures, the player stays in focus, even while moving, that is, the AF can still track even during a burst of 8 frames. The 5D3 did not have this luxury, and the frame rate wasn't nearly as much. Swimming comes to mind, when during the butterfly, you want the swimmer at the top of the motion. With the 1Dx's burst rate, this is easier to capture at the perfect time, vs. the 5D3. Not to say it cannot be done, however.
> 
> Shutter durability is definitely a huge factor. There are other things though. In the 1Dx you can set min/max apertures/shutters/ISO's. This allows you to use EC with auto ISO, and still select your shutter speed and aperture (or any combination). Certainly not a feature in other series models. I use a f/2.8 lens and set min ap to f/2.8 and max to f/1.0 in Tv mode. This locks the camera at f/2.8. I then choose a shutter speed at say 1/500, and using CWA metering can use auto ISO and still set an EC value of +2/3. So I'm effectively doing +2/3 EC in manual mode with auto ISO and every single shot is +2/3. How cool!! This can be very, very useful and can contribute to my lazy lifestyle! Not the best in every situation, but certainly where light is low and even.
> 
> ...



I shoot in manual, but I can appreciate the set it and forget it functionality you describe. I shoot sports as well and I won't argue that the 1dx's af system isn't better, but I often wonder if it is really that much better. It would be like 2 people getting a 1600 on the sat's, back when that was the top score. Sure one of those kids is probably smarter than the other, but both will get into an iv league school. 

Funny enough, but when I had my Canon xs I would spray and pray so much more than I do now. What I do at the moment is time my shot, then hold it down for 4 or five extra shots after just incase...

I'd love a faster fps, but I'm too cheap to go down that road when my mkiii is more than sufficient for my needs. 

What I love about the 1dx is the option to meter of center and attach metering to a peripheral af point.... but like I said.... to cheap.


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## bdunbar79 (Jan 16, 2014)

I agree. An extra $3700 is a lot and is by no means a bad reason not to buy the 1Dx. I do think yes, overall it is more enjoyable to use than a 5D3, but I'm not sure $3700 more enjoyable either. The situation I described I meant to say that in cases where lighting was different, not even. I was in a gym where ISO 3200 was required under the basket, but at center court as low as ISO 1600. In that case the min/max aperture feature saved me, vs. having tons of over or under exposed shots to edit in post. The only advantage in that case is that aperture and shutter didn't change, only ISO and at +2/3 EV always. If it's even lighting, manual and leave it is the way to go. I posted on here last fall (2012) where I was actually able to track the tennis ball itself with the 1Dx, and that really impressed me. Why would you need to? You wouldn't but it was just cool!


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## Don Haines (Jan 16, 2014)

ewg963 said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
> 
> 
> > East Wind Photography said:
> ...


I agree.... there will be a few people who don't buy a 1DX because they like the 7D2 more.. but there will be a heck of a lot more that don't buy the 70D because they like the 7D2 better... net sales gain for Canon.. Plus, of those few who don't get the 1DX, how many end up spending the saved money on lenses?


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## East Wind Photography (Jan 16, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> ewg963 said:
> 
> 
> > GMCPhotographics said:
> ...



Canon already does enough to rob sales from the 1dx on price alone. How much better would it sell for half the price?


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## ewg963 (Jan 16, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> ewg963 said:
> 
> 
> > GMCPhotographics said:
> ...


Sure, I want to be able to expand into sports & wild life photography. Don't get me wrong the 5D Mark III is a great camera and it will handle most of my needs but it just doesn't have the blazing fps. I pondered this for countless months and I won't be purchasing another body for a while after this one. I currently own a 5D Mark II.....also it will give me a great excuse to go out a purchase some more excellent glass.


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## ewg963 (Jan 16, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> ewg963 said:
> 
> 
> > GMCPhotographics said:
> ...


 Don I can't wait to see what the 7D II has to offer. I believe there will be some very happy shooters when that baby finally arrives...


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## ewg963 (Jan 16, 2014)

East Wind Photography said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > ewg963 said:
> ...


East that will be a very blissful day for me but for now I have to suck it up and shell out the bucks for it.


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## jrista (Jan 16, 2014)

ewg963 said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > ewg963 said:
> ...



The 7Ds AF system has an intrinsic jitter that negates a lot of it's FPS advantage. Even when locked onto a subject, there are small changes in the actual AF position every single frame, which can kill that "one best frame". Overall, the keeper rate with the current 7D falls around 4-5 per second, at best. The 5D III has a vastly superior AF system, putting it in the same bucket, and possibly even beating the 7D with a consistent 5-6 keepers per second (it's AF system rarely misses and doesn't seem to jitter.)

Unless Canon actually puts a better AF system in the 7D, and guarantees that whatever AF system they do put in it doesn't have that jitter, the extra FPS isn't going to be all that much of a lead over the 5D III.


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## jdramirez (Jan 16, 2014)

Here's a bit of a non sequitur question... why did the 7d ship with the 28-135? The lens creep on that thing is atrocious, sharpness was less than the 18-135, and it really doesn't address the wide angle much with the 28 x 1.6. Maybe there are those who love the 28-135, but compared to the lens offerings available, it seems pretty bad. 

And I realize there is the 15-85 and 17-55 options out there, but I don't believe they were kitted with the 7d, though I may be wrong about that.


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## pdirestajr (Jan 16, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> Here's a bit of a non sequitur question... why did the 7d ship with the 28-135? The lens creep on that thing is atrocious, sharpness was less than the 18-135, and it really doesn't address the wide angle much with the 28 x 1.6. Maybe there are those who love the 28-135, but compared to the lens offerings available, it seems pretty bad.
> 
> And I realize there is the 15-85 and 17-55 options out there, but I don't believe they were kitted with the 7d, though I may be wrong about that.



I think it was also kitted with the 18-135 EF-s. They probably kitted it with the 28-135 to get rid of stock?


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## unfocused (Jan 16, 2014)

pdirestajr said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a bit of a non sequitur question... why did the 7d ship with the 28-135? The lens creep on that thing is atrocious, sharpness was less than the 18-135, and it really doesn't address the wide angle much with the 28 x 1.6. Maybe there are those who love the 28-135, but compared to the lens offerings available, it seems pretty bad.
> ...



The 15-85 was announced at about the same time as the 7D. I remember I fully expected it to be the kit lens, but it wasn't (or at least it wasn't for the first year or so, I haven't followed it since then to know if it is currently kitted with the 7D).

I suspect that when Canon looked at the combined price of the 7D and 15-85 (or worse yet, the 17-55) they realized that the price point would be too high. I have never figured out why Canon insists on kitting 28-135 lenses with APS-C cameras. Seems like a ridiculous combination to me.


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## Sanaraken (Jan 16, 2014)

Waiting for the 7DII feels like waiting on the 5DIII to come out. Most was disappointed by the little bump in performance and price hike. Comepared to the D800, but now its selling way better than the competition.


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## unfocused (Jan 16, 2014)

Sanaraken said:


> Waiting for the 7DII feels like waiting on the 5DIII to come out. Most was disappointed by the little bump in performance and price hike. Comepared to the D800, but now its selling way better than the competition.



I guess I remember it a little differently. Prior to the announcement, there were any number of people on this forum who absolutely *knew* that the 5DIII would have inferior autofocus (the catchword at the time was "crippled.")

Then, when it came out, most of the wailing was over the price. Those who bought raved about the high ISO performance, autofocus and almost everything else. As the price has dropped, the sales have climbed and you are correct in that it now significantly outsells the D800.

That said, I would agree that waiting for the 7DII does seem a bit like Deja Vu and I certainly hope that we will be equally surprised at how good the camera is.


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## Rienzphotoz (Jan 16, 2014)

unfocused said:


> Sanaraken said:
> 
> 
> > Waiting for the 7DII feels like waiting on the 5DIII to come out. Most was disappointed by the little bump in performance and price hike. Comepared to the D800, but now its selling way better than the competition.
> ...


+1


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## jdramirez (Jan 17, 2014)

pdirestajr said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a bit of a non sequitur question... why did the 7d ship with the 28-135? The lens creep on that thing is atrocious, sharpness was less than the 18-135, and it really doesn't address the wide angle much with the 28 x 1.6. Maybe there are those who love the 28-135, but compared to the lens offerings available, it seems pretty bad.
> ...



I think you might be right... but who is the person who wants a pro level crop body and is willing to throw down a little extra cash for a mediocre lens. Who does their homework only on the body and just takes a blind stab in the dark in the lens.


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## jdramirez (Jan 17, 2014)

Sanaraken said:


> Waiting for the 7DII feels like waiting on the 5DIII to come out. Most was disappointed by the little bump in performance and price hike. Comepared to the D800, but now its selling way better than the competition.



I personally was very impressed with the specs of the mkiii (but I'm also 99% ignorant to Nikon FF bodies). So I didn't know there was a hotter sluttier version that caused the mkiii to suffer by comparison. What freaked me out was the price. 

I had settled on buying a full frame refurb from Canon for around $1500 which the mkii was going at... but then the price tag of $3500 shows up and I wasn't even in the ball park. Then the price drop... then Amazon got me out of a jam and the price wasn't insurmountable. 

As for the 7d mkii... it seems like people expect too much. It's a crop body. Even if there are marginal improvements in iso and dynamic range, it won't be comparable to full frame. And at a price tag of $1700 (complete guess) for the body, I can't see there being THAT many features to warrant paying twice the price of 2.5 used models in good condition. 

Having said that... I think the 5d mkiii was worth 2.25 used mkii's... so what do I know.


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## Don Haines (Jan 17, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> Sanaraken said:
> 
> 
> > Waiting for the 7DII feels like waiting on the 5DIII to come out. Most was disappointed by the little bump in performance and price hike. Comepared to the D800, but now its selling way better than the competition.
> ...


I think it all comes down to a combination of how deep your pockets are, and what features does it have. For many people, a rebel has all the features that they need or want.... And they can't understand why you would pay ten times as much for a 1DX..... A camera that is big and heavy and crippled in features... It doesn't even have a tilt-swivel touchscreen or WiFi and takes those ancient memory cards that don't plug into laptops or tablets or TVs...

For those who want the extra features of a newer body and for those who will take significant advantage of them, the upgraded bodies seem like a bargain... If better AF doubles your keeper rate it is worth it... If for the way you shoot it makes no difference, it is not


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## East Wind Photography (Jan 17, 2014)

unfocused said:


> Sanaraken said:
> 
> 
> > Waiting for the 7DII feels like waiting on the 5DIII to come out. Most was disappointed by the little bump in performance and price hike. Comepared to the D800, but now its selling way better than the competition.
> ...



Personally I'm not so much concerned about how it performs relative to the 5diii. It will be better than the 7d and that's what matters to me. I rarely use the 7d anymore as the 5diii records way better images...even cropped. If the leaked specs to date are any indication the upgrade is a no brainer. Now...let's see how much canon can milk our bank accounts...


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## Leejo (Jan 17, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> And I realize there is the 15-85 and 17-55 options out there, but I don't believe they were kitted with the 7d, though I may be wrong about that.



In some countries in Europe the 15-85 was offered as the kit lens - I know because that was what I purchased.


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## mkabi (Jan 19, 2014)

Single Digic 5+?
Single Digic 6?
Dual Digic 5+?
or 
Dual Digic 6?

According to Wikipedia, the 1DX uses Dual Digic 5+ and a Separate Digic 4 for Intelligent Subject Analysis System. I don't own a 1DX so someone else can confirm. 

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIGIC

I want Dual Digic 6, but it hasn't been put in DSLRs yet - may be its specific for P&S?
I strongly doubt it will be a single Digic 5+ but then again...


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## Don Haines (Jan 20, 2014)

mkabi said:


> Single Digic 5+?
> Single Digic 6?
> Dual Digic 5+?
> or
> ...


I seem to remember that previous rumours that talked about specs were saying dual digic5+, but I would not be surprised if it were dual Digic6.... each iteration of the processor seems to be a good jump in speed.. Digic6 probably beats dual Digic5+ so I kind of hope for dual Digic5+...

And to those who say that it cant be Dual Digic6 because that's better than the 1DX has, how come a powershot has Digic6 and the 5D3 does not


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## jrista (Jan 20, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> mkabi said:
> 
> 
> > Single Digic 5+?
> ...



I don't think that DIGIC 6 is what people think it is. DIGIC 6 is used in PowerShot because its new features were designed for the kind of consumer-grade features PowerShot offers. It supports 9.3fps average frame rate (12.2fps continuous up to 5 frames, after which the rate slows), but that is its minor feature. The big features are the way it handles highlight preservation, noise reduction at high ISO, etc. DIGIC 6 is about DSP image processing features, I don't think Canon has ever intended it to be the real replacement for DIGIC 5/5+.

I suspect the 7D II will use dual DIGIC 5+. It doesn't seem all that logical for Canon to create a new DIGIC 7 for the 7D II yet, as the DIGIC 5+ still offers plenty of data processing throughput. Given the derivation of the throughput for a pair of DIGIC 5+ like so:


```
dataRate = (14fps * 19,100,000pixels * 14bit) / 8bit/byte + overhead
dataRate = 467,950,000bps + overhead
dataRate = 468mbps + overhead
```

Assuming Canon didn't create DIGIC 5+ with 234mb/s, it seems logical that each one is capable of 250mb/s (~32mbps overhead per second). At 24mp, we can derive the frame rate of the 7D II if we assume a 500mb/s data rate (Dual DIGIC 5+):


```
500,000,000bps = (fps * 25,200,000px * 14bit) / 8bit/byte + 32,050,000bps overhead
467,950,000bps = (fps * 25,200,000px * 14bit) / 8bit/byte
467,950,000bps * 8bit/byte = fps * 25,200,000px * 14bit
3,743,600,000bps / (25,200,000px * 14bit) = fps
fps = 3,743,600,000bps / 352,800,000px/bit
fps = 10.611fps
```

So, with a pair of DIGIC 5+, the 7D II with a 24mp APS-C sensor could easily reach 10fps, and have even more room left over for overhead than the 1D X. Unless Canon is intending to give the 7D II a 12fps frame rate, I don't see the need for a new DIGIC 6+ or DIGIC 7. Maybe some of the image processing features in the DIGIC 6 could be useful, however I am not exactly sure what it's data throughput rate is...however I am pretty sure it isn't actually quite as good as a single DIGIC 5+ (based on what I've been able to derive from a couple PowerShot megapixel counts and the frame rate for the first five frames, it seems like the DIGIC 6 is capable of 225mb/s, it it falls short of DIGIC 5+ by about 25mb/s.)

It is possible that Canon might create a DIGIC 6+. If they did, assuming they scale DIGIC 6+ the same way they scaled DIGIC 5+ over DIGIC 5, then a single DIGIC 6+ should be about 3x as powerful as a DIGIC 6. That would put it's data throughput rate somewhere around 640mb/s to 675mb/s. That would mean that a single DIGIC 6+ would be enough to give the 7D II a 14fps frame rate. 

For some reason, I don't really see that happening...not sure why, just doesn't feel like Canon is ready to drop that particular improvement on us yet. I suspect such a new DIGIC 6+ chip (or maybe they call it DIGIC 7) will arrive with the big megapixel camera. A data throughput rate of 700mb/s would be enough to support 8fps for a 46.7mp FF sensor at 14bit, and even enough to support 7fps at full 16bit!


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## mkabi (Jan 20, 2014)

jrista said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > mkabi said:
> ...



I'm confused, why call it a DIGIC 6 if its not an improvement on the DIGIC 5+?
Isn't a dual-DIGIC 6 better than a single DIGIC 5+?

They used a DIGIC 5 in a t4i/650D...

At this point, anything that improves on a dual DIGIC 4 is better than no change...
Plus, even if it is a dual DIGIC 6 and it is less powerful than a dual DIGIC 5+ then won't it keep the 1DX supreme. It wont' hurt its sales in terms of specs.


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## jrista (Jan 20, 2014)

mkabi said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



Better doesn't necessarily mean faster. DIGIC 6 offers much improved image processing (which is more useful for sensors with smaller pixels), but it isn't faster. It is technically still better, but not in the way a 7D II would necessarily need.


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## Don Haines (Jan 20, 2014)

I wonder how much computing power is required for AF? 

To my mind, one of the advantages of mirrorless designs is AF tracking.... you can lock on a face and have the focus point follow that object around the screen... I wonder how that would work on tracking small birds or an athlete's head? It's got to be a good load on the processor....

I wonder how this ties in with hybrid viewfinders?

The closer we get to a rumoured 7D2 the more uncertainty we have. One would expect that as time passes the specs would get more and more defined, but in this case the opposite is happening... this could be something really big, or it could be a warmed over 70D... only time will tell, but it's fun to speculate


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## GMCPhotographics (Jan 21, 2014)

Typically, the next generation single Digic processor has a simular processing throughput as the previous dual Digic processor. The pattern to that is roughly a 1.5x gain in throughput. Canon usually throttle a little back the processor's capacity in every camera too, so no camera maxes out the procesor, not even a 1Dx.
But the ration's still carry, so expect a Dual Digic 6 (1D series) to be roughly 1.5 times that of the Dual Digic 5 (1DX spec) and expect a single Digic 6 to be roughly equal to the throughput of the Dual Digic 5. ie, expect the 7II/5D4 to have the same thoughput capability as the 1Dx.


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## jiphoto (Jan 21, 2014)

I'd be very surprised if the DIGIC processors are equivalent throughout the PowerShot and EOS lineups. Canon may have a different iteration of the DIGICs for DSLRs than for PowerShots, since it seems outrageous that the same processor would be in the ELPH-type cameras as in the 5D3. On that note, it would be worth considering whether the DIGIC 6 processor for the EOS lineup is taking longer to develop than the PowerShot variant, and perhaps has different features designed for the extra processing of video or high-FPS 7D-type cameras. If I recall correctly, DIGIC 5 appeared in PowerShots before EOS cameras as well. However, the DIGIC 4 series appeared in the 50D and 5D2 and the ELPH/IXUS series around the same time, so maybe Canon is changing their R&D timelines.


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## Thecrispyone (Jan 23, 2014)

There have been several mentions of " new and innovative video features" on the 7d II. I would like to see a better in camera mic, focus peaking, bigger LCD screen, and possibly an improved upon variation of the dual pixel af found in the 70d. 

Other than that I would like the 7d II to have a 24MP sensor , dual digic 5+ processors, and 10 fps burst rate.
Hope they announce it soon!


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## mkabi (Jan 23, 2014)

Thecrispyone said:


> There have been several mentions of " new and innovative video features" on the 7d II. I would like to see a better in camera mic, focus peaking, bigger LCD screen, and possibly an improved upon variation of the dual pixel af found in the 70d.
> 
> Other than that I would like the 7d II to have a 24MP sensor , dual digic 5+ processors, and 10 fps burst rate.
> Hope they announce it soon!



There's never going to be a better in-camera mic.
External mic is your best option (Check out a Rhode Mic on Amazon). If we're lucky they may add 3.5" LCD screen, but I think a 3.2" is the best we may see in the next iteration, you should also check out camera rigs and adding on 7" screens to a current model that you're interested in. Focus peaking is already possible using Magic Lantern.

My only problem with the dual digic 5+ is that we have seen what its already capable of doing in the 1D-C in terms of video capabilities.

4K/24p is cool.
1080/60p is also cool but 120p is much cooler. So if they are boasting about video capabilities, I would really expect something as good or even better than the 1D-C but not so much that its out-shinning it.


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## Don Haines (Jan 23, 2014)

Thecrispyone said:


> There have been several mentions of " new and innovative video features" on the 7d II. I would like to see a better in camera mic, focus peaking, bigger LCD screen, and possibly an improved upon variation of the dual pixel af found in the 70d.
> 
> Other than that I would like the 7d II to have a 24MP sensor , dual digic 5+ processors, and 10 fps burst rate.
> Hope they announce it soon!


+1
Although I also hope for a better in-camera mic, you will always be better off with an external mic. An external mic is sort of like changing lenses.... you can go for directional mics, omni mics, and remote mics... far more versatile than a built-in mic, but not nearly as convenient.


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## jrista (Jan 23, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Thecrispyone said:
> 
> 
> > There have been several mentions of " new and innovative video features" on the 7d II. I would like to see a better in camera mic, focus peaking, bigger LCD screen, and possibly an improved upon variation of the dual pixel af found in the 70d.
> ...



You can also spend money, and I mean SPEND MONEY, on external mics like you can on lenses. There is a whole range of quality, some are ok, some are good, some are absolutely phenomenal. You get what you pay for there, but pretty much any external mic is better than the built-in one. Kind of like replacing that 18-55mm toy with a "real lens" first thing after you buy your camera.


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## vscd (Jan 23, 2014)

The Digic 6 should be faster than a Digic 5/5+: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIGIC#DIGIC_6.

The drawback could be that magic lantern is not running anymore (not likely, but let's see).


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## mkabi (Jan 23, 2014)

jrista said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Thecrispyone said:
> ...



+1


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## jdramirez (Jan 23, 2014)

How hard is it to achieve 4k video? I was watching a digrev tv episode where a guy had to shoot a film using a Barbie camera... and gee said that his galaxy note could do 4k... it might not have been a note, but something similar. Certainly we have the pixels for it and then some... so what is the bottle neck in the slr world... oh... and I absolutely would not about at 4k for home videos. I feel I am assuming previous hard drive space just using 30 fps 1080p footage of my daughter sucking at basketball.


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## Thecrispyone (Jan 23, 2014)

1080/60p is also cool but 120p is much cooler. So if they are boasting about video capabilities, I would really expect something as good or even better than the 1D-C but not so much that its out-shinning it.
+1
As for the microphone, right now an external mic isn't really an option for me because I need to shoot with a extremely light and compact setup. Plus it wouldn't even fit in my current camera backpack. But I would like to upgrade to one in the future when that option becomes more viable. Thanks for your input!


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## jdramirez (Jan 23, 2014)

Thecrispyone said:


> 1080/60p is also cool but 120p is much cooler. So if they are boasting about video capabilities, I would really expect something as good or even better than the 1D-C but not so much that its out-shinning it.
> +1
> As for the microphone, right now an external mic isn't really an option for me because I need to shoot with a extremely light and compact setup. Plus it wouldn't even fit in my current camera backpack. But I would like to upgrade to one in the future when that option becomes more viable. Thanks for your input!


Maybe they are just using marketing hype to get free advertising. Maybe what they are saying is, 

UNLIKE ANYTHING EVER BEFORE, within the market category...


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## mkabi (Jan 23, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> UNLIKE ANYTHING EVER BEFORE, within the market category...



lol...



jdramirez said:


> How hard is it to achieve 4k video? I was watching a digrev tv episode where a guy had to shoot a film using a Barbie camera... and gee said that his galaxy note could do 4k... it might not have been a note, but something similar. Certainly we have the pixels for it and then some... so what is the bottle neck in the slr world... oh... and I absolutely would not about at 4k for home videos. I feel I am assuming previous hard drive space just using 30 fps 1080p footage of my daughter sucking at basketball.



I don't think its much, I mean look at the Go Pro Hero 3/3+ Black edition...
http://gopro.com/cameras/hd-hero3-black-edition#technical-specs

It supports 4K, 2.7K, 1440p 1080/60p...

Only problem is its tiny and no interchageable lenses.... oh wait... no... this guy made it possible to change lenses: http://www.back-bone.ca/

Its still tiny though! Annoyingly tiny.


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## jiphoto (Jan 23, 2014)

mkabi said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > How hard is it to achieve 4k video? I was watching a digrev tv episode where a guy had to shoot a film using a Barbie camera... and gee said that his galaxy note could do 4k... it might not have been a note, but something similar. Certainly we have the pixels for it and then some... so what is the bottle neck in the slr world... oh... and I absolutely would not about at 4k for home videos. I feel I am assuming previous hard drive space just using 30 fps 1080p footage of my daughter sucking at basketball.
> ...


The GoPro 3+ isn't a fair comparison, since it only offers usable (30p or higher) video at 2.7K and lower resolutions. It's also worth noting that the 1DX can do 18MP stills at 14fps, comparable to the GoPro's true 4K setting. The GoPro is impressive because of its 1080/60p and 720/120p modes - that's more reasonable to compare. Canon will probably reserve 4K for its significantly more expensive models, meaning the C series, and instead work on more marketable modes like 1080/60 or 720/120, since most consumers don't have a 4K display anyway, but would like more slow-motion capabilities. The 7D replacement would be a good place to add those capabilities, since we're expecting dual processors and hence significantly more computing power than the 70D.


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## mkabi (Jan 23, 2014)

jiphoto said:


> mkabi said:
> 
> 
> > jdramirez said:
> ...



Here is the question, can Canon afford to keep 4K off their future models?
I mean, ok... lets ask another question... is 4K a fad or something that is sustainable until at least 8K comes along?

If 4K is a fad... then no problem... lets move on.
If 4K is not a fad and every consumer will embrace it, can something like the 7DII afford to not have that feature? Given that 4K was introduced recently (within the last year or two), and supposing everyone will go out and buy a 4K TV, Canon will have to wait 4-5 years before they introduce it in a 7DIII (or whatever other name - Mark II).


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## Don Haines (Jan 23, 2014)

mkabi said:


> jiphoto said:
> 
> 
> > mkabi said:
> ...


Look at a 60D...it can handle 1920x1080 no problems.... it can read the sensor 60 times per second no problems...

To go to 2K video at 60 frames per second you will need twice the computing power (easy) and probably 1.8X the storage speed (easy with a good card)

To go to 4K video at 30 frames per second you need 4X the computing power (easy) and probably 3.5X the storage speed (could be done with a fast compact flash card, SD is out)

To go to 4K video at 60 frames per second you need 8X the computing power (easy with dual Digic5+ or dual Digic6) and around 7X the storage speed. SD and compact flash are both out.... it will have to be cFast or something else... 

You could reduce storage requirements by compressing it more heavily, but if you do, there goes quality.... and if you do not have quality, why bother with 4K video in the first place?

If the 7D2 supports 4K video, odds are very high that it will take a cFast and an SD card for storage...


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## jdramirez (Jan 23, 2014)

I could tell the difference between up converted 480p and 1080I...I could definitely tell the difference between 480I and any high Def feed.

I don't think 4k is that noticeable v 1080p... I wouldn't call it a fad, but it won't take hold the way hdtv did. 



mkabi said:


> jiphoto said:
> 
> 
> > mkabi said:
> ...


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## jdramirez (Jan 23, 2014)

I'd like to say for the record that if the c series is actually holding us back and bottle necking the technology... I'm a bit ticked.

That would be like Ford limiting the horsepower in the truck line because it would equal the girl efficiency of their dump trucks. 

Yes they are similar.. yes one costs a ton more, yes they do different jobs, 

I'm sure there are better analogies... and I don't even like video...but I don't want to stills side to suffer.


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## vscd (Jan 23, 2014)

<jehova>There is no need for any videomode in a DSLR, grab a Cam instead</jehova> or with other words <unix>one job, one tool</unix>. :


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## pj1974 (Jan 24, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> .....
> 
> Look at a 60D...it can handle 1920x1080 no problems.... it can read the sensor 60 times per second no problems...
> 
> ...



Don, I really like so many of your posts here, they are clearly worded, well formatted & thoughtfully written. The above is one great example.

I have seen 4K (in a specialist store, on top end equipment), and it's great... particularly if the screen is large. I do think 4K will be something more mainstream- ie wealthier households in the west will be having it more commonly in the next 5 years or so (but it will probably be somewhat of a delayed take-up).

What I do wonder, is where is Canon (& other manufacturers) seeing (or 'making') the bottleneck? If the above is true, and 4K has historically been unachievable due to card write speed? CFast sounds like a possibility (as does USB3) for Canon's next 'higher end' / XD (ie single digit series) of cameras... eg 7DmkII, or 5DmkIV, or ID___

I have a 7D, and enjoy it immensely, but I only use video very rarely. I prefer taking / making still photography to videos _myself_, though I appreciate good video that others take/make.

If Canon will come out with clean, great 60fps 4K video, I do expect it will probably be on their 1DC or dedicated video body range, and then 'trickle down' to the 'normal' DSLR range.

Let's see what the future holds... in the meantime, enjoy your photography / videography!

Paul


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## Don Haines (Jan 24, 2014)

pj1974 said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...


Thank you for the kind words... I try to use logic, but some many subjects are very emotionally charged....

As I've said before, I shoot with a 60D. The first time I shot with a borrowed 7D I knew that I bought the wrong camera and have been waiting (somewhat impatiently) for the 7D2 to come out. I did not feel like the 7D was enough of an upgrade to warrant my getting it, despite the fact that it is what I should have bought in the first place...

For example, video is an emotionally charged topic. Personally, I seldom use it, but would have thought long and hard about getting a camera without it. There are many who feel that Canon should just make "pure" cameras and leave video out... but at what cost? Yes, it does take away some R+D resources from stills and yes, it does increase the complexity of cameras, but what happens if Canon leaves it out? The great buying masses would go elsewhere because rightly or wrongly, they think they need the feature, and without it Canon's sales would plummet, economies of scale would be lost, there would be far less R+D money, and the company would implode.... a small price to pay (actually it's savings) for features I could live without, but in reality, I find nice to have.


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## jdramirez (Jan 24, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Thank you for the kind words... I try to use logic, but some many subjects are very emotionally charged....
> 
> As I've said before, I shoot with a 60D. The first time I shot with a borrowed 7D I knew that I bought the wrong camera and have been waiting (somewhat impatiently) for the 7D2 to come out. I did not feel like the 7D was enough of an upgrade to warrant my getting it, despite the fact that it is what I should have bought in the first place...
> 
> For example, video is an emotionally charged topic. Personally, I seldom use it, but would have thought long and hard about getting a camera without it. There are many who feel that Canon should just make "pure" cameras and leave video out... but at what cost? Yes, it does take away some R+D resources from stills and yes, it does increase the complexity of cameras, but what happens if Canon leaves it out? The great buying masses would go elsewhere because rightly or wrongly, they think they need the feature, and without it Canon's sales would plummet, economies of scale would be lost, there would be far less R+D money, and the company would implode.... a small price to pay (actually it's savings) for features I could live without, but in reality, I find nice to have.



I upgraded from my xs to the 60D primarily because of it's video function. I didn't want to buy a video camera that cost $300 when I could have sold the xs and used that 300 towards the 60D. 

Video, especially now that very few of us put the video on dvd's/blu-rays/physical media, is just easier to capture and upload. I liked the editing... but that has fallen to the wayside now. 

For me... I can't have a single body in my house (only body in my house) that doesn't have video... because I do need it... not a ton... but I do need it to capture my 5 month old and my 125 month old. So if Canon were to drop video entirely... I would probably have to jump ship in 5 years when I out grow my mkiii... I know it isn't likely that they will drop it... but it is what it is.


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## AvTvM (Jan 24, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> ...
> I upgraded from my xs to the 60D primarily because of it's video function. I didn't want to buy a video camera that cost $300 ...
> ...
> For me... I can't have a single body in my house (only body in my house) that doesn't have video... because I do need it... not a ton... but I do need it to capture my 5 month old and my 125 month old. So if Canon were to drop video entirely... I would probably have to jump ship in 5 years when I out grow my mkiii... I know it isn't likely that they will drop it... but it is what it is.



This is exactly why I would like all DSLRs to come in a "basic" stills-only version without video capturing capability [hardware disabled, easy to do]. And for those who really want or "need" steills and video in one single device, should be offered a video-enabled version of those cameras ... of course at a surcharge. Maybe 10% more, maybe 20% more or any other reasonable number, that would still make "one dual-use camera" a better deal than "two single-use cameras" (or rather camera systems). 

For every other product on earth the principle is clear: more features and/or more convenience = higher price. 
We can order cars in a basic, "no frills version" or "fully loaded". "2 wheel drive" or "all-wheel drive". Stronger engine, more "extras" ... no problem. But ... not for free. 
*You want it ... you select it ... you pay for it ... you get it. *

Only video-users clamor for their extra video-capability and single-device convenience in EVERY camera ... and they DEMAND it "FOR FREE".

Now, as that demands shifts to ever more advanced video capturing (4k, 8k, 60fps, 120fps, 1000fps?) ... it gets very evident, that video capability in DSLRs does NOT come for free, but does cause rather significant extra cost: extra R&D effort, more CPU-power, stronger hardware, larger and faster storage media, additional firmware and software ... all of this has to be designed, developed, tested, manufactured, implemented and serviced. It requires extra capital and extra labor from (highly skilled) humans, who certainly do not work "for free". But the extra feature only wanted by a minority of buyers should be "free of charge", "all inclusive". Paid for by the majority of stills idiots, who neither need nor want video capability in their stills cameras, but are not given a choice. Unlike cars, we only get our cameras "fully video loaded", and have to swallow the price for it. 

This is the single reason, why the topic of "video-capable DSLRs" is "emotional". Because the way (all) camera makers are currently dealing with the market demand for "dual-use cameras" is very UNFAIR towards those wanting cameras that are fully optimized towards one single use scenario, that DSLRs were really designed for: capturing still images. 

The argument will be less pronounced when the shift to mirrorless cameras has happended, since these cameras are video-enabled by their very design [for viewfinder&backscreen image] without mechanical mirrors blocking the lightpath. Nevertheless, implementing video CAPTURE and video OUTPUT causes extra cost and is an extra feature and extra convenience. It should therfore come as a choice for those who want or need it AND ARE WILLING TO PAY at least a modest surcharge for it.


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## jdramirez (Jan 24, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



I feel as though I've had this conversation before. Video is software... so it doesn't really cost much to implement into a body with sufficient capabilities. So you create a body capable of capturing 8 fps at 18mp... and the video capabilities are already built in.

Now... if the manufacturers HAVE to improve the specs to acheive high end video... then there's an argument... but having a stills only camera v. (not the other cameras in the lineup) the competition will severely hurt the stills only market. 

If Canon was the only one making cameras... sure... but they aren't. Sony will include it... nikon, etc... and if the price is the same and offers what many would consider a significant upgrade of capability, then the stills only will lose. 

I don't think you can make a camera that doesn't provide some level of video. When I got my XS (I was stupid) and didn't realize it didn't do video. My old fuji 3mp camera did crappy video... so I was surprised my new slr didn't. I made do... but if I had known that the nikon d3000 did video and it was the same price as the XS kit I got... then I probably would be at nikon rumors right now. 

We need a poll... but not of the people at canon rumors... but of just everyday soccer mom types who drive the entry level market. And


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## Don Haines (Jan 24, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> For every other product on earth the principle is clear: more features and/or more convenience = higher price.



Yet I am writing this response on a wifi enabled touchscreen tablet which has more computing power than NASA mission control had when they sent Apollo to the moon in 1969, yet for some strange reason costs less....


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## jrista (Jan 24, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > jdramirez said:
> ...



Hmm, I think your vastly oversimplifying the hardware requirements of video. Sure, it is POSSIBLE to do video as a "software only" thing. I do not believe that is actually how it is done these days, though. First off, if video was purely software based, there is a limit at how fast modern high resolution sensors can be read out. This limit is on the FRONT END of the image processing pipeline...there is only so much bandwidth in a DIGIC5+ chip, for example...and we know that in say the 1D X, the total bandwidth is 500mb/s (250mb/s per DIGIC5+). That bandwidth ONLY allows for 14fps readout at full resolution.

SO, given that we can read the full sensor out at 14fps, that clearly indicates that something else is going on, at the hardware level during readout, to support 30fps and 60fps readout rates. There are a few options here. First is line skipping, or even row and column skipping, where only certain pixels of each row and/or column are read out. This reduces the time necessary to perform a read, therefor supporting faster readout. Line skipping results in pretty terrible quality, especially on the aliasing/moire front...this is what the D800 does, and moire is pretty terrible on the D800. 

The more effective approach to supporting a high speed readout without losing quality is some kind of hardware-level pixel binning. By blending pixel data together at the point of readout, you reduce the data throughput from sensor to DSP, potentially considerably if you bin say an 18mp sensor down to the 2mp necessary for 1080p video. This is what Canon does...they bin the pixel readout, and perform some form of 4:x:y pulldown and processing.

Regardless of whether line skipping or binning is employed, the HARDWARE has to support it. It isn't a purely firmware based process. Video requires hardware changes to be effective and efficient. So there IS a drag on R&D, and that does ultimately impact the number and quality of the improvements for stills photography.


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## mkabi (Jan 24, 2014)

jrista said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



@ Jrista - I think jdramirez is comparing 1DX vs. 1DC.
If there is a difference in terms of hardware, please tell us.

@ Everyone else who doesn't want video in their DSLR - Canon also makes printers... you're saying that it adds towards R&D, which ultimately affects stills photographers? I'm sure they have dedicated R&D for printers, as there are dedicated R&D for video and R&D for stills. Most, if not all, of their canon camcorders including the Vixia line have the ability to take pictures/stills, I'm not complaining that its making Vixia camcorders expensive and money out of my pocket for a stills function that I would never use on a camcorder.

@ AvTvM - you're right in some respects, but remember that some functions of a car trickles down. I mean, power windows, A/C, etc... soon becomes basic functions. If it doesn't then the car company loses to the other company that does offer it as a basic function. 

There are other companies that make DSLR without video...
Look beyond Nikon and Canon... Look at Hasselblad, Leica, PhaseOne, Mamiya... what makes their cameras more expensive? It can't be video cause thats not even included.


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## AvTvM (Jan 24, 2014)

well, here we are talking about a possible EOS 7D successor, whatever it may be called. 

A semi/pro DSLR capable of handling quite demanding use cases of "photographing fast moving subjects" ... from sports to wildlife of all sorts to birds of all sizes and in flight to planes in the air at airshows or in war zones and the like. Used by people who typically are not "entry level n00bs" but enthusiasts who know, whether they want or don't wanT/need video capabilities in that 7D successor. 

If Canon would take the test and offer a well-specced stills-only 7D II @ e.g. 1999 and a video-enabled version 7D IIc priced anywhere between 2,299 to 2,599 depending on level of video capture offered ... I would expect 90% would be sold without video. 

While it is not video as the differentiator, I see it very similar to the Nikon D800 vs. D800E offerings. A hell of a lot more regular D800 are sold than D800E, since only people really wanting and valueing the additional capability [more resolution at possible risk of moire in some situations] will pay up for the more expensive model. 
The example sucks a bit since the D800E is so much more expensive than the D800 for only very little extra ... but I bet it would be pretty much the same, even if the pricing difference was only 100 bucks. 

There should be no video-freeriding in stills-cameras / DSLRs. It is just not fair.


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## jdramirez (Jan 24, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> well, here we are talking about a possible EOS 7D successor, whatever it may be called.
> 
> A semi/pro DSLR capable of handling quite demanding use cases of "photographing fast moving subjects" ... from sports to wildlife of all sorts to birds of all sizes and in flight to planes in the air at airshows or in war zones and the like. Used by people who typically are not "entry level n00bs" but enthusiasts who know, whether they want or don't wanT/need video capabilities in that 7D successor.
> 
> ...



When the 1c, or whatever it is called, came out, I remember there being a video about some guys using it to shoot a wedding and the used the 4k video and extracted files from the video. They referred to it as capturing micro expressions.

So the line between video and stills is blurring.


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## unfocused (Jan 24, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> If Canon would take the test and offer a well-specced stills-only 7D II @ e.g. 1999 and a video-enabled version 7D IIc priced anywhere between 2,299 to 2,599 depending on level of video capture offered ... I would expect 90% would be sold without video...There should be no video-freeriding in stills-cameras / DSLRs. It is just not fair.



Here we go again. How many times must this idea be debunked?

In what alternate universe do you live where a video camera (which all DSLRs are) would cost $600 less if video capture were disabled?

Try this experiment. Go into any new car dealership, pick out any car or truck that comes with electric windows and ask them to give you a price quote on an identically equipped vehicle with crank windows. Whatever the percentage price difference is (and it could well cost more) is likely to be the most you might save (probably zero or a higher price) if you disabled video capture.

As DSLRs improve, the needs of video and stills capture may begin to diverge and at that point there may be reasons why a stills only camera should be available, but cost is never going to be a factor.


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## mkabi (Jan 24, 2014)

AvTvM as usual, you're not convinced yet.

Ok, this is for all the people that are not convinced that video is a basic function, nor do I believe that it affects R&D for the stills side and it doesn't affect IQ.

Lets compare Canon's current product line in terms of DSLRs.

SL1 -> t5i/700D -> 70D -> 6D -> 5D Mark iii -> 1DX -> 1DC

I've listed the above as per price and functionality, from least to greatest.
SL1 all the way to 1DX... zero difference in terms of video, its still 1080p with the same frame rates.
You can argue that the the 70D has some live-view AF crap during video... But still the price hasn't shifted the 70D from being so much more expensive than the 6D. In fact, how much of a price difference is it between the 60D and the 70D when the 60D first came out, plus or minus inflation? 

Note the IQ is also slowly getting better between the SL1 (lets neglect the 700D) to the 70D to 6D to 5DIII to 1DX, while keeping the video at 1080p. Is the video a basic function now? Video function on the cameras are not any different between SL1 all the way to 1DX, the price is... what accounts for that price increase? I don't think its video.

The only difference between 1DX and 1DC is for the 4K video, and look at the $5000 price difference between them. Not worth the extra $5000 in my opinion, but some will argue about that. Nonetheless, the R&D that you think going to video isn't affecting the stills people, because the stills people are not paying $5000 extra.

As I've said earlier, the GoPro Hero 3/3+ black edition supports 4K, 2.7K, 1440p 1080/60p...
and a guy at www.back-bone.ca has made it possible to interchange lens on the GoPro...
And, guess what, it doesn't cost $5000 extra. If I was so into IQ and compactness, I would go for it, but I'm comfortable with the size and quality of the 7D. In fact, with GoPro + the mod, plus all the C-mount lenses I can get off of ebay, its still a whole lot cheaper than the 7D plus all my current lenses. But again, I'm more comfortable with the 7D.

If you buy a car and they are offering it fully loaded for free, knowing that you will never use the Navigation system, will you say no? Price is going to be the same fully loaded or not.


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## Don Haines (Jan 24, 2014)

Ok... let's say Canon decides to make a 7DS for stills, and a 7DV which shoots stills and Video.

Sales of the 7DV will be 50 or more times that of the 7DS. There are VERY VERY VERY few people who want a stills only camera.... a few people on this forum are not representative of the masses which have embraced a stills camera that can shoot video.

Since there will be so few of the 7DS, it's price will be considerably higher than the 7DV, yet it will not shoot better pictures as it will have the same sensor, the same AF system, etc etc etc.... Yes, the processing may be optimized for shooting stills, but the burst rate WILL STILL BE LIMITED BY THE SHUTTER MECHANISM AND THE SPEED OF THE MEMORY CARDS!!!!!

So the consumer will be faced with the choice of buying a stills and video camera, or to buy a far more expensive stills only camera that has no better performance.... What do you think will be the result?

This is not going to happen.....


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## jdramirez (Jan 24, 2014)

is it the same people having this conversation over and over again... or are the rolls the same but the actors different. 

Deja vu all over again.


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## mkabi (Aug 26, 2014)

Is it too early to say that I told you so???


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## xps (Aug 26, 2014)

Talking to professional sale staff from 2 CP shops:
They believe that the 7D2 will be a well sold product ( if the sensor at least will be a little bit better than the 7D´s in ISOs). Because of the F8 feature and the improved AF system. The ability to use e.g. an 100-400 with an 1.4 extender is highly wanted by sports/wildlife... photographers. And paired with an new AF system (double cross, AF @ f8, ... fast,... accurate) this will satisfy the needs of a lot of photographers.

In their opinion, the f8 feature & better AF will be the major reason why someone buys the 7D2, mainly not an improved sensor.


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