# Question about handheld shooting with 5Ds R



## 1982chris911 (Jun 17, 2015)

Hello,

I just had a talk about the 5Ds R compared to the 7d MK II regarding the issue of needing IS on all lenses when using the 5DsR and the former not being a good camera for hand held shots. 

As the pixel density and pixel size in both cameras (7d MK II and 5Ds R) is nearly identical (5Ds R having the larger sensor of course), I personally see no difference in shake and motion blur introduced to pictures and in the way I should use lenses on the 5Ds R compared to the 7d MK II. 

This means if I get a sharp image in the 7d MKII with a non IS lens (e.g. 135mm f2L) using an exposure time of e.g. 1/200 sec. this same image should just be as sharp with the 5DsR. Or to say it differently my hand and the lens do NOT know if there is an APS-C or FF sensor behind the lens. Therefore the whole discussion if I need shorter exposure times with the 5Ds R to get sharp hand held pictures is completely pointless as the later is basically just a 7d MK II with a bigger sensor. 

Is this assumption correct or do I have some fault in my thoughts???

Kind Regards CK


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## AcutancePhotography (Jun 17, 2015)

Unfortunately, questions about handhold-ability depend on the person doing the holding.

You can take two people using the same model of camera/lens with the same settings and have one sharp handheld and the other blurry. Why? Because individuals differ in their ability to handhold. (Insert pun about the stability of photographers... ;D )

I know from personal experience that I can't handhold anywhere near as well as other photographers. I have to shoot with shutter speeds of 1/2f as my slowest and usually try to shoot at 1/5f as I am a shaky guy.

Other photographers I have seen can handhold rock steady at much slower shutter speeds.

So the answer to your question is really about you as an individual. You will have to test your individual ability with various lens combinations to find your individual steady shutter speed (S-cubed! I should trademark that!!)


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jun 17, 2015)

Let's imagine Canon 5DSR and 7D Mark II, side by side, using the same 100mm lens, and enough distance to get the same framework in the camera viewfinder.

The full frame camera asks minimum speed 1/100 second to shoot hand held, and the APS-C camera asks minimum speed of 1/160 second.

If the end result of two photos will be a paper print size 20 x 30 cm, blur of camera shake must be equal in the two photos.

But as you bought a 50 megapixel camera, you want to see if it was worth paying a lot more for it, and makes two impressions on paper size 1 x 1,5 meter, and will confirm that 50 megapixel provide more sharpness that 20 megapixel ... :
And the camera shake will be more visible in 5DSR.  WTF! :-\

The lower resolution of the 7D Mark II will hide the blur of camera shake, and the 50 megapixel of 5DSR will become the most visible blur. 

Tip: Use faster shutter speeds in 5DSR, to take advantage of greater theoretical sharpness .


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## 1982chris911 (Jun 17, 2015)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Let's imagine Canon 5DSR and 7D Mark II, side by side, using the same 100mm lens, and enough distance to get the same framework in the camera viewfinder.
> 
> The full frame camera asks minimum speed 1/100 second to shoot hand held, and the APS-C camera asks minimum speed of 1/160 second.
> 
> ...




Well I am not talking about the same frame, just about using the same lens. What you say is basically the same as using the APS-C sensor as magnifying tool. If I use the same lens for a wider crop and narrower crop of a scene (FF vs APS-C) so that on the 100% pixel level the mid frame both are identical it should in theory not affect make a difference. that a longer lens or narrower crop needs a shorter exposure time is of course clear...


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jun 17, 2015)

1982chris911 said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > Let's imagine Canon 5DSR and 7D Mark II, side by side, using the same 100mm lens, and enough distance to get the same framework in the camera viewfinder.
> ...


I said a "framework identical" in both cameras, because this makes it fair to compare sharpness.

If the framework is different, it will be difficult to judge whether sharpening is being stolen by "low" megapixel, or by camera shake.

I mean the old rule (minimum shutter speed =1x focal lenght) does not apply fully when using a 50 megapixel camera and printing paper 1.5 meters. I suggest using shutter speed =2x focal lenght to truly take advantage of greater theoretical sharpness of the 50 megapixel.


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## NancyP (Jun 17, 2015)

I think that people who aren't intending to make huge prints and who don't tend to work from a tripod ought to skip the highest-resolution cameras. Yes, they can downsample and otherwise deal with directional blur, but just think - those huge files - a PITA. 20 MP is darn good for a lot of situations. I can imagine that I might be a user of a highest-resolution camera on some days with some subjects, when I plan to work on tripod 90% of the time that day, but that the ordinary 20 MP camera would be the mainstay for hand-held shooting.


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## AcutancePhotography (Jun 17, 2015)

I think that the sweet spot for most types of photography is about 25MP. You can to a lot with 25MP and it may be a good balance between resolution and data size which affects workflow concerns. 

But from a marketing standpoint, a larger number is always an easier sell ;D


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jun 17, 2015)

AcutancePhotography said:


> I think that the sweet spot for most types of photography is about 25MP. You can to a lot with 25MP and it may be a good balance between resolution and data size which affects workflow concerns.
> 
> But from a marketing standpoint, a larger number is always an easier sell ;D


Yes, I agree that about 25 megapixel is enough for 99% of shots that I do.

For the other 1% of my photos where I need more than 25 megapixel, I would use a tripod to maximize sharpness.


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## Zeidora (Jun 18, 2015)

OP's analysis is basically sound. Pixel size of 7d2 and 5ds/r are the same, so blur issues are the same. MP count (or file size, aka "resolution") is irrelevant.

The only caveat is with angle of coverage by same focal length lens on APS vs FF. Because blur is caused to angular movement, this 1.6x difference is important. Canon suggests 1/2f for longest handheld time for the 5ds/r because of the small pixels on FF. By the same angular movement argument, the slowest speed on a 7d2 should be 1/1.6f for APS adjustment multiplied by 1/2f for small pixels: 1/(1.6 x 2)f = 1/3.2f. 

For same equivalent focal length lenses, say a 160 mm on a 5ds/r and a 100 mm on a 7d2, the same longest shutter speed applies. Then you only need the 1/(2 FF equivalent focal length) to compensate for small pixels. Notice how the math works out to come to the same 1/320 s speed. Amazing!

As others have pointed out, there is a lot of individual variability with respect to holding the camera steady. Additionally, the 7d2 is not meant for pixel peeping perfectionists, but the 5ds/r is. Expect much more critical examination of 5ds/r images than 7d2. Most people still do not understand the corollaries between file size, physical sensor size, and pixel size. Because file size on a 7d2 is more or less the same as on a 5d, most people think that everything else is the same as well. However, the 7d2 is much more similar to the 5ds/r with respect to optics because of similar pixel dimensions.

As always, that is the slowest speed for handheld, you can always go faster, and under many circumstances one should, or use a tripod even on a 7d2.


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## mistaspeedy (Jun 18, 2015)

> OP's analysis is basically sound. Pixel size of 7d2 and 5ds/r are the same, so blur issues are the same. MP count (or file size, aka "resolution") is irrelevant.


+1


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## Terry Rogers (Jun 18, 2015)

Another point to consider. I believe pixel peeping at 1:1 on a 50mp camera is a whole different world than on a 20ish mp camera (both ff). Scale the 50mp to 20mp and any blur from hand holding that would show up gets averaged out. Scale the two images to equivalent mp with same shutter etc, and they should have equal perceptual MP. I think, if you want to capture as many MP of sharpness as possible you would need higher shutter speeds than 1/fl. It's a good rule of thumb for regular print size images, but not good enough for high MP, monster sized prints.


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## lichtmalen (Jun 18, 2015)

Hi,

I got my 5Ds yesterday and all I can say is that the preset values the camera offers to calculate the exposure time in AV do not work for me. I had my Sigma 50 Art on it and it set something between 1/50s and 1/80s which I wasn't able to handhold safely for a, say, 99% success rate. It was slightly shaky.

Luckily you can alter these calculations and make it shorter or longer depending on your needs, in 3 steps in either direction. It's located unter the automatic iso settings. I set mine to one step shorter exposure time and then I get something around 1/125s, which I find quite okay to handhold. You can go a step shorter and it will offer around 1/160s which is definitely handholdable.


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## AlanF (Jun 18, 2015)

NancyP said:


> I think that people who aren't intending to make huge prints and who don't tend to work from a tripod ought to skip the highest-resolution cameras. Yes, they can downsample and otherwise deal with directional blur, but just think - those huge files - a PITA. 20 MP is darn good for a lot of situations. I can imagine that I might be a user of a highest-resolution camera on some days with some subjects, when I plan to work on tripod 90% of the time that day, but that the ordinary 20 MP camera would be the mainstay for hand-held shooting.



You use a 400mm f/5.6 without IS. It's a different ball game when you have 4 stops of IS.


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## jaayres20 (Jun 18, 2015)

I have the 5DSr and can comfortably shoot at 200mm @ 1/100 with IS and details are sharp. That is standing still with good technique.


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## Halfrack (Jun 18, 2015)

Handheld with 24-70 II on 5DsR - technique is critical, and tripod use will go up with these higher mp cameras.

Or take a closer look - http://t.co/cNAF17pYen (gigapan of the first full image)


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 18, 2015)

Those who understand the issues will likely get good images handholding the camera. It won't be worse than a 5D MK III, and most likely be better. However, when trying to eke out all the resolution that the sensor can produce, a tripod is going to be necessary. Few except careful and accomplished photographers will get everything possible from the 7D MK II or the 5Ds R.


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## PureClassA (Jun 18, 2015)

Will be testing handheld today!!!!


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## AlanF (Jun 18, 2015)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Those who understand the issues will likely get good images handholding the camera. It won't be worse than a 5D MK III, and most likely be better. However, when trying to eke out all the resolution that the sensor can produce, a tripod is going to be necessary. Few except careful and accomplished photographers will get everything possible from the 7D MK II or the 5Ds R.



"*Just Say No
*
Don't use a tripod if you can help it. Having to carry one is a pain and thus cripples creativity."

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/tripods.htm

We haven't said much about our Ken recently.


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## PureClassA (Jun 18, 2015)

ISO 6400 on this R looks really pretty damn good!!! Love the sound of the new shutter!


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## benperrin (Jun 19, 2015)

jaayres20 said:


> I have the 5DSr and can comfortably shoot at 200mm @ 1/100 with IS and details are sharp. That is standing still with good technique.



Hey Joshua, just wanted to say that you produce some amazing images. Great photography!


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## Omni Images (Jun 19, 2015)

I shoot landscape and keen to get for that, but I do have an old Phase One and P45+ back, and still use it for landscape along with my Linhof 617s ... what I am keen on using it for is water/surf shots in a housing and wildlife with my 100-400II ... so yeah hand holding for sure ... I don't think it'll be an issue really.
I think people are making too much of it .. bit like when the horseless carriage came out and people said you wouldn't be able to breath going faster than like 45.
Camera shake is camera shake ... and perhaps you may be able to see it easier, because you can pixel peep more, but I don't think having 50mp will make it any harder or magnify the shake ... like using a tele lens does.


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## StudentOfLight (Jul 3, 2015)

The camera shake in the X-axis and Y-axis planes is the same between the 5Ds and 7D-II however the blur due to pivoting about the Z-axis is different. You have a longer radius with the larger full-frame sensor so you can have more rotational blur in the corners. Good hand-holding technique and faster shutter-speeds can obviously minimize the effect.


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## Eldar (Jul 3, 2015)

I have used mine primarily handheld, with everything from 11-24 to 600 and it works fine. With the 24-70 f2.8L II (no IS) I can do 1/FL in shutter speed. To be on the safe side I do 1/2xFL. With IS lenses it´s of course different. I have pixle peeped a lot and believe this problem is a bit exaggerated (I know I am fairly steady though).

Who should use this camera and who should not ... that´s the question. To me, as long as your computer can process and you have enough disk space, I´d say you can use this camera for anything but sports, action and low light events (even though it is much better in low light than I had expected). 

I´m crossing my fingers for the new 1DX-II. Until then, I find a 1DX/5DSR combo to fill just about any need I can come up with. My 5DIII will most likely be inherited by my son.


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## StudentOfLight (Jul 3, 2015)

Eldar said:


> I´m crossing my fingers for the new 1DX-II. Until then, I find a 1DX/5DSR combo to fill just about any need I can come up with. My 5DIII will most likely be inherited by my son.


If you're looking to adopt another son, just let me know


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## StudentOfLight (Jul 3, 2015)

Eldar said:


> Who should use this camera and who should not ... that´s the question. To me, as long as your computer can process and you have enough disk space, I´d say you can use this camera for anything but sports, action and low light events (even though it is much better in low light than I had expected).


What do consider low light? I shoot events where I use between ISO 1600-3200 to retain ambiance and light my subjects with flash. What kind of file sizes are you getting shooting at these ISO settings?


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## deleteme (Jul 3, 2015)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Those who understand the issues will likely get good images handholding the camera. It won't be worse than a 5D MK III, and most likely be better. However, when trying to eke out all the resolution that the sensor can produce, a tripod is going to be necessary. Few except careful and accomplished photographers will get everything possible from the 7D MK II or the 5Ds R.


While generally true, it is my experience that tripod mounted shooting ALWAYS beats handheld on still subjects. Even in my film days shooting at 1/500 sec I found significant sharpness improvement by mounting the camera on a tripod. (And I was a lot steadier then).
OTOH sharpness was acceptable handheld but IMO you lose the advantage of your high res camera if you think you are going to crop madly or make large prints.


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## 1982chris911 (Jul 3, 2015)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Those who understand the issues will likely get good images handholding the camera. It won't be worse than a 5D MK III, and most likely be better. However, when trying to eke out all the resolution that the sensor can produce, a tripod is going to be necessary. Few except careful and accomplished photographers will get everything possible from the 7D MK II or the 5Ds R.



Everything possible ? very very easy ... just need a lot of light and a big test chart ... ;D ;D ;D


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## mistaspeedy (Jul 3, 2015)

I agree with the school of thought that says the shutter speed for sharp shots will be the same between full frame and APS-C (with similar pixel density).
If you take an image with the 5DsR and crop it down to the resolution of the 7D mark II, you will get the same image that the 7D mark II produces. (cropping in post or taking the image with a crop-sensor camera makes no difference) If it is sharp on one camera, it will be sharp on the other. (although I do agree with the Z-axis point that was brought up, but don't think it influences a large percentage of shots because z-axis rotation happens to a much smaller degree than movements on the other axis).

I also agree with what was said about a tripod... on my point and shoot cameras and 20D (same pixel density as a 6D), I consistently get sharper images on a tripod compared to handheld... no matter the shutter speed.


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## 1982chris911 (Jul 3, 2015)

mistaspeedy said:


> (although I do agree with the Z-axis point that was brought up, but don't think it influences a large percentage of shots because z-axis rotation happens to a much smaller degree than movements on the other axis).



Says who ??? I always start to spin my camera around if I get into the grove ... ;-) 



AlanF said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Those who understand the issues will likely get good images handholding the camera. It won't be worse than a 5D MK III, and most likely be better. However, when trying to eke out all the resolution that the sensor can produce, a tripod is going to be necessary. Few except careful and accomplished photographers will get everything possible from the 7D MK II or the 5Ds R.
> ...



the Problem with KR is that many of the things he takes pictures of (his kids, family, dogs, palm trees in bright sun) you don't need a tripod for anyway ... ;-) 

I also think he is very supportive with Canon recently ... therefore not much to criticize in this forum. Obviously love the 5d MkIII even with extremely low DR and loves all the lenses (11-24 and 100 - 400 II) from what I could read ... well the next "best camera in the world" from Nikon is around the corner with D850 ... so expect to hear more again soon ;D


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## Busted Knuckles (Jul 4, 2015)

Been shooting a 5dSR for a week now. Technique is everything. Pixel peeping keeper rate at 1/FL is 50/50 i.e no or negligible camera blur. Falter a bit on technique and it is a snap shot for JPG on the web.

If there is any movement in either the subject or the button pusher, 1/2xFL seems wise for hand holding. 

My trusted companion laptop really isn't up to the task of 26 meg JPG! and 80 Meg Raw files - lots of details, but I rented the camera for the details - and If I buy one, it will be for the details. So far I like it - love it? we will have to weight and see.


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## Eldar (Jul 4, 2015)

StudentOfLight said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > Who should use this camera and who should not ... that´s the question. To me, as long as your computer can process and you have enough disk space, I´d say you can use this camera for anything but sports, action and low light events (even though it is much better in low light than I had expected).
> ...


1600-3200 works fine. I have not tried beyond that.


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## 9VIII (Jul 4, 2015)

StudentOfLight said:


> The camera shake in the X-axis and Y-axis planes is the same between the 5Ds and 7D-II however the blur due to pivoting about the Z-axis is different. You have a longer radius with the larger full-frame sensor so you can have more rotational blur in the corners. Good hand-holding technique and faster shutter-speeds can obviously minimize the effect.



Winner!

Basically, shoot it like a crop camera.
I actually hadn't thought about the rotation issue, nice touch.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 4, 2015)

9VIII said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > The camera shake in the X-axis and Y-axis planes is the same between the 5Ds and 7D-II however the blur due to pivoting about the Z-axis is different. You have a longer radius with the larger full-frame sensor so you can have more rotational blur in the corners. Good hand-holding technique and faster shutter-speeds can obviously minimize the effect.
> ...



Only if you enlarge it like a crop camera, this seems to be a point missed too often. For a same sized reproduction the crop camera is enlarged 1.6 times as much, actually it is 1.6 x 1.6, or 2.56 the size by area. Therefore any movement or blur in a crop camera shot is much more noticeable.


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## 1982chris911 (Jul 4, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > StudentOfLight said:
> ...



Clear to me but I am more talking about 100% level on a screen - one pixel on the picture equals one pixel on the screen


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## 9VIII (Jul 4, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > StudentOfLight said:
> ...



You're saying we should downsize resolution in print to avoid blurr?
In a pinch, ok, if you're just snapping pictures of your dog, then whatever. But I seriously hope you're not suggesting that people intentionally downsize images to avoid the per-pixel impact of using a 50MP sensor.
That's like stacking bricks in your Ferrari to stop it from going so fast.


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## photonius (Jul 4, 2015)

1982chris911 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I just had a talk about the 5Ds R compared to the 7d MK II regarding the issue of needing IS on all lenses when using the 5DsR and the former not being a good camera for hand held shots.
> 
> ...



on the one hand you are right, the same pixel density, so if the blur is across a single pixel, it will be the same on both cameras. but is the blur just a single pixel.
Let's say, you shake left or right. usually that is not a translational movement of one pixel left or right (i.e. say 4 micrometers), but rather a rotational shake, so let's say you turn by half a degree to the right. In one case, that half degree smears over 8688 pixels, in the other over 5472 pixels. So, at pixel peeping level, the blur is bigger on the sensors with more megapixels, i.e. in one case it would cover, say 8.7 pixels, in the other only 5.5 pixels. I let you calculate effects of focal length - whether you want to have same framing or different framing but same focal length, yourself.
Thus the 5Ds does need more stringent hand-holding rules.


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## Don Haines (Jul 4, 2015)

I find that I have to shoot with a shutter speed that is twice as fast on a 7D2 as with a 5D2. The pixels are smaller so the same amount of motion blurs more pixels... Since the 5Ds has the same pixel density as the 7D2, I would expect that the same holds true for it.

Keep in mind that this is for pixel peeping sharpness. For the final outputted image, this does not apply. Let's say you are taking an image with a 7D2 and with a 5Ds. The two images are framed the same and shot at the same shutter speed. On both images, the blur covers 5 pixels. If you re-sample the 5Ds image to the same number of pixels as the 7D2 image, that blur becomes only 3 pixels....

So the answer is, if you are going to be using the image right down to the pixel level, not much difference between a crop camera ad a 5Ds for blur so treat it like a crop camera and use the rule of thumb of shutter speed = 1/twice the focal length. If you are going to be downsizing the image, treat it like a "normal" FF and use the rule of thumb of 1/focal length for shutter speed.

Also, remember that IS on your lens helps compensate for your shake, not subject motion... IS is useless for photographing hummingbirds 

and don't forget about added stability from leaning on things, resting the lens barrel against trees or buildings, and even simple things like sitting in a chair.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 5, 2015)

9VIII said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > 9VIII said:
> ...



No that isn't what I am saying at all. What I am saying is if you print both images to 20"x30", or even 20'x30', then the crop camera image, and its associated blur, is enlarged 2.56 times as much by area. 

Or you can say, if you print the 5DSR image to 36"x24" then it will exhibit the same blur as the 7D MkII image enlarged to 22.5"x15", in other words, you can't just look at a 7D MkII image to see what blur results you will get in any same sized reproduction.

However, as 1982chris911 points out, the 100% view can give you some indication of potential assuming you also allow for the radial increase in rotational movement as pointed out and demoed very nicely by StudentOfLight.


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## 9VIII (Jul 5, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...




The issue is that you made the qualifying statement: "Only if you enlarge it like a crop camera". Which is not true.
What you're actually telling people is that if I'm going to print a 50MP full frame image to the same size as a 20MP crop image then I don't need to take the same precautions with the full frame camera because the focal length is effectively shorter.
It's not the same as what I thought you were saying at first, but it's not a whole lot different in practice.

Yes, you're right that when printing a 20MP crop image to the same size as a 50MP full frame image (using the same lens on both cameras) the same amount of pixel level blur is going to be more visible on the 20MP crop image than the 50MP full frame image.
But what that means for the 50MP image is that you're accepting a higher level of per-pixel motion blur, and still effectvely throwing away the extra resolution of the 50MP image. It's not much different from telling someone to downsample.
Unless you're downsampling, the 5Ds always needs to be used with settings adjusted according to a focal length multiplier (the same as the 7D2).

We may also be hitting one of these newfangled generation gaps in that I like to say that having a 515DPI cellphone screen is a highly valuable and effective use of resources, and a lot (like, *a lot*) of people in a wide variety of established industries don't like me saying that looking at something with that level of visual density ten inches in front of my face could possibly be of any practical value.
If you're printing 5Ds images to a 1" sticker, then maybe you can back off on the technique a bit, otherwise there is no circumstance where any pixel is any less important.
Welcome to 21st century photography, where postcards contain the same amount of visual information as an 8x10 medium format image.


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## StudentOfLight (Jul 5, 2015)

Eldar said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > Eldar said:
> ...


This is excellent news. I typically use 1600 indoors or 3200 if it's more dimly lit. I'm looking forward to getting the 5Ds version towards the end of the year. ;D


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## lichtmalen (Jul 5, 2015)

6400 is quality-wise quite identical to 5D Mark III. e.g. if you'd upsample a 5D Mark III shot at 6400 to the 50MP of the 5Ds, you wouldn't see much of a difference. This of course means that the 5Ds is still usable at high Iso and produces similar results to 5D Mark III at 6400. I have both, I have compared them.


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## 1982chris911 (Jul 5, 2015)

lichtmalen said:


> 6400 is quality-wise quite identical to 5D Mark III. e.g. if you'd upsample a 5D Mark III shot at 6400 to the 50MP of the 5Ds, you wouldn't see much of a difference. This of course means that the 5Ds is still usable at high Iso and produces similar results to 5D Mark III at 6400. I have both, I have compared them.




This more or less confirmes my impression from what i saw in the test online ... And well the ISO 12800 on the mk iii is really no longer usable for much besides snap shots


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## I Simonius (Feb 22, 2016)

obviously best use a tripod but for those times when you can't (for whatever reason) it is worth noting that to help us with our perfect technique the shutter button requires much less pressure than the 5D2 (dunno about mk3) to fire. So much less in fact that after a week I still accidentally trigger the shutter.

Just love this camera


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## K (Feb 22, 2016)

I would say that I'm about slightly above average on hand holding technique. I'm not steady as a rock, but I don't have the shakes either.

I recently shot an event with the 5DSR, here are my thoughts:


The "S" in the 5DS series means studio and they mean it. To get the most out of this camera, you really, truly need to be on a tripod. The same way it is with medium format. To make the most of the resolution, you have to be steady.

I did some hand-held comparisons with the 5DSR vs 6D. The practical results of the 5DSR hand held shots are no better than the 6D. In other words, you just have more resolution to "see" more blur/shake in the pixels when peeping; whereas, lower res cameras like the 6D...this is "masked" in the lower detail. Although, the truth is, even with lower MP cameras, if you properly light the subject and tripod mount the camera - the detail shoots way up....


While the 7D2 and 5DS have the same pixel density, they do not have the same pixel to image proportion. FF vs Crop matters not. The image projected onto the sensor by the lens, there is a different proportion in pixels. This is why the 5DSR show you more of the flaws in technique.


When the 5DS is mounted, it is nothing short of amazing the IQ. No, it isn't medium format. But it is remarkable for 35mm. 


Advice:


Keep the 5DS for studio shots and landscape. And other "controlled" environment type shooting. The 5DS cameras are NOT event cameras. You give up FPS, which is more valuable, and gain very little with the resolution considering most if not all shots will be hand held. Only advantage is you can get a nice tight crop with it and have lots of pixels to enlarge IF you were steady enough. But I don't find that too valuable. The ISO is a little weak, but the 5DS has the newer Canon tech that is cleaner. 


If you are going to shoot handheld almost all the time, get something else. Any 20-24MP camera is going to be good enough even for studio shots. Put that on a tripod, with good lighting in a controlled environment, and the results are stunning.

As expected, and said in past threads on the subject - the 5DS cameras deliver images of a quality and resolution not useful for anything short of serious landscape or commercial use. Makes no sense to get a 50MP image of something to then provide the client photos they'll view on a 1080 or 4K TV/Monitor (or cell phone), go up on a website, or digital picture frame. Even albums, "regular" 20-24MP cameras can print huge albums at high DPI no problem. So the output, the product of this camera is of no real advantage to those whose end result is low MP, scaled down image.


In short, the 5DS loses its main purpose when handheld - and all you end up with is 2-3x larger image files to deal with in post-processing.


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## KeithBreazeal (Feb 22, 2016)

Interesting discussion by all. I went to Yosemite this last Saturday to shoot the "Fire Fall" at sunset. I got there early and went into tourist mode and just walked around to kill time. No tripod. just the 5DS and the old 24-105L.

If shutter speeds dropped below 1/250, I would choose live view to reduce vibrations in the longer focal lengths. Even though you are having to hold the camera away from you to frame, there is a notable improvement in IQ.

The new mirror drive is helping at the low speeds, but good holding techniques will always win out when using the viewfinder- as discussed earlier. After a few hours of hiking with the gear, it does get a bit more challenging.(at my age)

This is one of the handheld shots from that day. 1/250th at f8 using live view. There is no sharpening applied. I was on the edge of a muddy river bank in an uncomfortable position to get the low angle, so a bit challenging.

Click on the photo for the large file.



Yosemite Falls reflection 20 Feb 2016 6093 © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr


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## K (Feb 23, 2016)

KeithBreazeal said:


> Interesting discussion by all. I went to Yosemite this last Saturday to shoot the "Fire Fall" at sunset. I got there early and went into tourist mode and just walked around to kill time. No tripod. just the 5DS and the old 24-105L.
> 
> If shutter speeds dropped below 1/250, I would choose live view to reduce vibrations in the longer focal lengths. Even though you are having to hold the camera away from you to frame, there is a notable improvement in IQ.
> 
> ...




This is a wonderful photo! Thank you for sharing. I very much appreciate these type of landscape shots. Realistic ones. Not these overly processed images that look like some scene out of Avatar.


Good info on the shutter speed. I found that I only saw a real edge over the 6D handheld with a shutter speed of 1/500. Then it was better than the 6D or 5D3 handheld. Under that, the advantage is lost.


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## Ozarker (Feb 23, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> Will be testing handheld today!!!!



Always fun to hold a new Canon isn't it? I get shivers even watching others do it. Nice camera!


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## axtstern (Feb 23, 2016)

> Always fun to hold a new Canon isn't it? I get shivers even watching others do it. Nice camera!



+1


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## Larsskv (Feb 23, 2016)

I disagree strongly with those claiming the 5DS is a studio and landscape camera that need a tripod. I use my 5DS the same way I used the 6D and results are as good or usually better at lower shutter speeds. It's rare that I mount it on a tripod. I have never seen any signs of mirror slap vibration issues.

To get pixel level sharpness, I agree with those claiming that you have to use it as a crop camera, in terms of shutter speeds.


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## takesome1 (Feb 23, 2016)

It amazes me, their are many highly intelligent individuals on this forum who will debate endlessly and make observations about a camera they never had in their hand.

In the real world I pick my 5Ds R up and go about taking pictures just as I did with every other FF camera I have ever owned. Hand held the pictures come back sharper than from any other body I have ever owned. We can discuss small pixel and how shake impacts it, and make the point how it you "have to have" faster shutter speed but the argument is FOS.

In the real world if you want to take "full advantage" of the additional pixel density you have to use a tripod or fast shutter speed. But this was true with all the previous versions of FF. You do not have to have a tripod or faster shutter speed to see some of the benefit. But maybe my conclusion is based on my superior hand held technique, very doubtful.


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## uri.raz (Feb 23, 2016)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Let's imagine Canon 5DSR and 7D Mark II, side by side, using the same 100mm lens, and enough distance to get the same framework in the camera viewfinder.



IMHO, this comparison is flawed, as the difference in distance will produce different photos due to the different perspective.

The proper comparison would be the two cameras side by side, the 5DSR using a 1.6x longer focal length, etc.


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## bholliman (Feb 23, 2016)

Larsskv said:


> I disagree strongly with those claiming the 5DS is a studio and landscape camera that need a tripod. I use my 5DS the same way I used the 6D and results are as good or usually better at lower shutter speeds. It's rare that I mount it on a tripod. I have never seen any signs of mirror slap vibration issues.





takesome1 said:


> It amazes me, their are many highly intelligent individuals on this forum who will debate endlessly and make observations about a camera they never had in their hand.
> 
> In the real world I pick my 5Ds R up and go about taking pictures just as I did with every other FF camera I have ever owned. Hand held the pictures come back sharper than from any other body I have ever owned. We can discuss small pixel and how shake impacts it, and make the point how it you "have to have" faster shutter speed but the argument is FOS.



+1 I use my 5DsR handheld all the time with excellent results. Compared with my 6D or the 5D3 I recently sold, I am more aware of my shutter speed and try to maintain it above 2x focal length when possible. I'm a pixel peeper, so am looking for sharp pictures at 1:1. I've found I can get pixel level sharp pictures (maybe 80% of my shots) at shutter speeds at or even under 1x focal length with stationary subjects and good IS lenses (35/2 IS, 16-35/4, 70-200/2.8 II and 300/2.8 II).

I love using the 5DsR on a tripod, it's and excellent landscape/studio camera, but also can be a nice general purpose camera.


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## jaayres20 (Feb 23, 2016)

K said:


> I would say that I'm about slightly above average on hand holding technique. I'm not steady as a rock, but I don't have the shakes either.
> 
> I recently shot an event with the 5DSR, here are my thoughts:
> 
> ...



I have had the exact opposite results actually. I a 1DX used to have a 5D3 and have use 6D a lot as well. I currently have the 5DSr and use it all of the time during weddings (including dark ceremony and reception locations. I often with slower shutter speeds down to 1/160 and sometimes 1/125 with my 200mm f/2. I can see a huge difference in resolution between the cameras, and have had almost no issues with camera shake. The 5DSr's files are gorgeous with nicely controlled noise along with amazing colors and obviously sharper images and more resolution.


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## KeithBreazeal (Feb 23, 2016)

bholliman said:


> Larsskv said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree strongly with those claiming the 5DS is a studio and landscape camera that need a tripod. I use my 5DS the same way I used the 6D and results are as good or usually better at lower shutter speeds. It's rare that I mount it on a tripod. I have never seen any signs of mirror slap vibration issues.
> ...



In a moment of insanity, I decided to use the 5DS at the Reno Air Races. Out at the pylons, speeds reach 500 mph. I was totally disgusted with the results. At 100% crop, I couldn't see the fibers in his cap or his nose hairs. 
Yah, you can crop 100% and have a great print but what's the point if it won't hold up under a 60 power microscope. You just know that some geek will bring a loop into the photo gallery and go past the ropes to pixel peep.



Thom Richard Hot Stuff screen shot 5172 web © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr


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## RGF (Feb 23, 2016)

1982chris911 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I just had a talk about the 5Ds R compared to the 7d MK II regarding the issue of needing IS on all lenses when using the 5DsR and the former not being a good camera for hand held shots.
> 
> ...



Sounds reasonable to me since the density of photo sites is nearly identical between the two bodies, only the 5DS R has larger sensor.


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## AlanF (Feb 23, 2016)

When I posted that in an 80D thread that I wanted to see a Canon APS-C without the low-pass filter, there was a barrage of retorts that it wouldn't be any sharper without the low pass filter, the images would be ruined by Moire fringes, and, to prove it, TDP site mentioned Moire 30 odd times in its review of the 5DS r. So how come you users of the 5DS r, get sharp images and Moire is not running off your computer screens and falling like stardust over your shoes?


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## Refurb7 (Feb 23, 2016)

bholliman said:


> Larsskv said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree strongly with those claiming the 5DS is a studio and landscape camera that need a tripod. I use my 5DS the same way I used the 6D and results are as good or usually better at lower shutter speeds. It's rare that I mount it on a tripod. I have never seen any signs of mirror slap vibration issues.
> ...



+1 more. I don't have a 5DsR, but resolution has never made a difference to how I shoot any camera, going from 4mp to 22mp. Cameras shake the same, regardless of resolution. For decades I have seen renowned pros shooting medium format without a tripod. Handheld vs. tripod has nothing to do with capture resolution. It has to do with a bunch of other factors instead.


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## bholliman (Feb 24, 2016)

AlanF said:


> When I posted that in an 80D thread that I wanted to see a Canon APS-C without the low-pass filter, there was a barrage of retorts that it wouldn't be any sharper without the low pass filter, the images would be ruined by Moire fringes, and, to prove it, TDP site mentioned Moire 30 odd times in its review of the 5DS r. So how come you users of the 5DS r, get sharp images and Moire is not running off your computer screens and falling like stardust over your shoes?




I've only noticed slight moire a few times in over 5k frames shot on my 5DsR. But, I'm mostly shooting landscapes and nature so recurring patterns are not very common.


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## Eldar (Feb 24, 2016)

bholliman said:


> AlanF said:
> 
> 
> > When I posted that in an 80D thread that I wanted to see a Canon APS-C without the low-pass filter, there was a barrage of retorts that it wouldn't be any sharper without the low pass filter, the images would be ruined by Moire fringes, and, to prove it, TDP site mentioned Moire 30 odd times in its review of the 5DS r. So how come you users of the 5DS r, get sharp images and Moire is not running off your computer screens and falling like stardust over your shoes?
> ...


I have about 15k frames on mine, primarily nature, birds and wildlife, but also people in various dresses and architecture. I have to date not seen a single case of Moiré.


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## takesome1 (Feb 24, 2016)

AlanF said:


> So how come you users of the 5DS r, get sharp images and Moire is not running off your computer screens and falling like stardust over your shoes?



Because it is not there. Maybe moire is to Canon what rare side effects are to the pharmacitical industry.
Where you had a 1 chance in 10000 of taking a picture with moire when using a 5 D III, the 5Ds R might have a chance of 1 in 5000. That is twice as bad!!

So far I have seen it one time, it appeared in a shot that had a metal cage in the background. It was awful, it forced me to make a few adjustments in LR to make it go away. I have been lucky, 10,000 frames or more and only one example.

I live in fear that some day I may have to make another adjustment in LR to make moire go away. I can barely sleep at night because of worry.


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## AlanF (Feb 24, 2016)

takesome1 said:


> AlanF said:
> 
> 
> > So how come you users of the 5DS r, get sharp images and Moire is not running off your computer screens and falling like stardust over your shoes?
> ...



Thanks for that. There prophets of doom who find every excuse to be a naysayer and rubbish a camera without any real evidence or practical experience.


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## takesome1 (Feb 24, 2016)

AlanF said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > AlanF said:
> ...



Well, the truth is after I bought the 5Ds R after a few months I did encounter the worst moire I have ever seen.

I did a photoshoot for family, it is the only kind of human photography I will do. I do it only because it was requested and of course I am the family member that has the expensive camera gear. In their eyes it qualifies me to be portraiture, wedding, senior and baby photographer. The son in law wore a shirt with very tiny dots, and a fabric that created wicked moire when I went to do PP. 

The kicker here is that I did the photo shoot two months before I bought the 5Ds R. It took me 4 months before I got back to the files to PP. I did the shoot with my ancient non moire producing 5D II.

So the only explanation I have is that the 5Ds R moire infected files have somehow infected all of my old files from my 5D II. Maybe there is another explanation, I am not sure I will discover it.


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## tron (Feb 24, 2016)

takesome1 said:


> AlanF said:
> 
> 
> > takesome1 said:
> ...


Was the infection restricted to moire or the 5DII files are now 50Mpixels? ;D


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## takesome1 (Feb 24, 2016)

tron said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > AlanF said:
> ...



Not yet just moire, if I put them in the same folder will this type of infection be passed on? I would like to have the additional resolution in my old pictures.


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## Steve Todd (Feb 27, 2016)

Anyone concerned about using the 5Ds R for wildlife/BIF photography, should view the results Arthur Morris has achieved using his 5Ds R! www.birdsasart-blog.com


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## takesome1 (Feb 27, 2016)

Steve Todd said:


> Anyone concerned about using the 5Ds R for wildlife/BIF photography, should view the results Arthur Morris has achieved using his 5Ds R! www.birdsasart-blog.com



Not at all, I bought mine for wildlife.

But BIF, no its not a good choice IMO. I didn't read the article you posted, but I do not need to. FPS and Buffer are big negatives.

Six years ago or so, I bought my first 5D II and 500mm. On one of my outings I stopped to watch a pair of bald eagles and their young one. They were all roosting across the river when a Osprey came by. Like jet fighters the parents went at the Osprey, one straight on and the other circled around and came in under the tree line underneath. A few seconds in I hit the dreaded "FULL" and was limited to a few shots here and there. I missed out on the most critical parts, I got a few good pictures but I learned a valuable lesson. The slow camera is ok 99 percent of the time for BIF. But that other 1 percent may be the percent that counts. I moved to a 7D after that, wasn't satisfied at all, then three months later bought the 1D IV.


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## Steve Todd (Feb 27, 2016)

If you haven't viewed Arthur's site, you really need to! The stuff he does on and off a tripod with his 5DS R is truly amazing...he was all about his 7D II until he stated using the 5DS R! Now his primary gear is the 5DS R and 1D X bodies. His body of work and awards speak for themselves!


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## takesome1 (Feb 27, 2016)

Steve Todd said:


> If you haven't viewed Arthur's site, you really need to! The stuff he does on and off a tripod with his 5DS R is truly amazing...he was all about his 7D II until he stated using the 5DS R! Now his primary gear is the 5DS R and 1D X bodies. His body of work and awards speak for themselves!



I wouldn't dispute the quality of his work. 

I wouldn't dispute that he is in the business of selling gear, and over the years he has given a better report on certain gear than it deserved.

You mentioned BIF in the previous post, the samples I see on your link are not BIF.
I own the 5Ds R and it can do ok with BIF, but the shallow buffer and slow frame rate could cost you the shot of the year, or worse lifetime.


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## AlanF (Feb 27, 2016)

takesome1 said:


> Steve Todd said:
> 
> 
> > If you haven't viewed Arthur's site, you really need to! The stuff he does on and off a tripod with his 5DS R is truly amazing...he was all about his 7D II until he stated using the 5DS R! Now his primary gear is the 5DS R and 1D X bodies. His body of work and awards speak for themselves!
> ...



He's a great photographer and knows how to capture birds. But he has to make a living and he needs you to click his links to B&H, Adorama etc and buy.


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## Steve Todd (Feb 28, 2016)

My point was simply this, he's shot a ton of BIF with his 5DS R! And one can clearly see the great results of his efforts.
If you didn't see them, you didn't page through his blog pages or visit his main site, look at any of his books or really seen any of his great work! Please don't claim he doesn't do BIF just because you haven't looked! I was only trying to enlighten people who might not think the 5DS R is a good wildlife body. Looking at his work would certainly show them how one truly Pro BIF guy has gotten great results with that body!


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## AlanF (Feb 28, 2016)

Direct cut-and-paste quote from http://www.birdsasart-blog.com/ 26 Feb 2016

"If…

If what you have been reading here about the 5DS R inspires you to purchase a 5DS R, please remember to use a BIRDS AS ART B&H affiliate link like this one: Canon EOS 5DS R DSLR. It is the best way to thank me for my efforts here on the blog."

The 5DS R is a great camera and Artie is a great bird photographer. He is also a great salesman!


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## takesome1 (Feb 29, 2016)

Steve Todd said:


> My point was simply this, he's shot a ton of BIF with his 5DS R! And one can clearly see the great results of his efforts.
> If you didn't see them, you didn't page through his blog pages or visit his main site, look at any of his books or really seen any of his great work! Please don't claim he doesn't do BIF just because you haven't looked! I was only trying to enlighten people who might not think the 5DS R is a good wildlife body. Looking at his work would certainly show them how one truly Pro BIF guy has gotten great results with that body!



Who claimed he doesn't do BIF? He is a bird photographer, of course he does.

I would agree and believe the 5Ds R is a great wildlife body. I bought mine for that purpose. But not to shoot BIF.

I would agree that Arthur Morris has used it for BIF, I would believe that. I would also believe that Lebron James drives a Kia every once in a while. I would also believe that if you paid me I would use whatever tool you are paying me to promote.


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## BAFFIONE (Sep 27, 2017)

i'm really worried about the real performance of my new canon 5ds, also with the top sharpening settings into style. i shot with all the conditions, low iso high iso, 1/125 or 1/200, with flash and no flash, but also with the delay of shutter, but the old canon 5d2 continue to give the best result. please look at the pic attached. i'm really worried. someone has suggestions? thanks


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## AlanF (Sep 27, 2017)

Have you AFMAd your lens? My 5DSR is my sharpest camera, but I do AFMA my lenses carefully. Here's a shot of a snowy owl I took on Sunday, focussing on the beak. Unfortunately, I had the IS turned off, having just recalibrated the lens with FoCal.


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## BAFFIONE (Sep 27, 2017)

i have a sigma 50 art and i have calibrated it, cause i found some errors in focusing, but the other 2 lenses are perfect and if i shot with 5d2 the images are perfect. sharpen and precise. not with 5ds. it's a bad story.
i dont' what to think..


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## AlanF (Sep 27, 2017)

BAFFIONE said:


> i have a sigma 50 art and i have calibrated it, cause i found some errors in focusing, but the other 2 lenses are perfect and if i shot with 5d2 the images are perfect. sharpen and precise. not with 5ds. it's a bad story.
> i dont' what to think..



Did you do AFMA with the 5DS? It wasn't clear if you calibrated with the 5DII only.


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## Act444 (Sep 27, 2017)

Focus looks a bit off to me - probably have to microadjust focus a bit backward. I have learned through experience with the 5DS cameras that even SLIGHT misfocus can have great implications on IQ (if you view full-size/crop heavily). All those pixels - while they're nice to have - there is a downside...Thankfully I find the AF to have a relatively high degree of consistency, but it does make shooting at super-wide apertures challenging at best.

I had to microadjust my 100 Macro on the 5DSR due to a slight front-focus. Actually, the annoying thing about it is that with this combo, each group of AF points seems to need a _different_ AFMA setting - i.e., the center point was more or less OK at 0 but outer points were front-focusing a bit. Since I mostly use the outer points on this combo anyway, that's what I adjusted for (+8 did the trick). So the outer points are now dead-on, but there is backfocus with the center point group - and occasionally I'll forget this when shooting. :-\ But you KNOW when it's dead-on, because this thing is SHARP when it is...


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## Sporgon (Sep 27, 2017)

BAFFIONE said:


> i have a sigma 50 art and i have calibrated it, cause i found some errors in focusing, but the other 2 lenses are perfect and if i shot with 5d2 the images are perfect. sharpen and precise. not with 5ds. it's a bad story.
> i dont' what to think..



Open your 5Ds CR.2 files at the same size as the 5DII - 5616 pixels long side. 

It'll go a long way to solving your problem


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## Jopa (Sep 28, 2017)

Try to focus via LV on a tripod (with IS = off), also maybe with zoom and 2s shutter delay. It's probably the most accurate focusing you can get. If it still sucks - maybe something wrong with the camera. The 5dsR sensor is crazy sharp, the 5ds one shouldn't be visually worse.


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## photojoern.de (Sep 28, 2017)

> Let's imagine Canon 5DSR and 7D Mark II, side by side, using the same 100mm lens, and enough distance to get the same framework in the camera viewfinder.
> 
> The full frame camera asks minimum speed 1/100 second to shoot hand held, and the APS-C camera asks minimum speed of 1/160 second.


Until here the previous post is correct. The thing is: pixel density of crop sensor and 5 DSR is similar. The 5 DS R get´s a larger field of view illuminated (full frame) than the cop sensor. On pixel level, this is similar. Solution to this is applied niecely into the 5 DS: there is an auto-iso shutter speed menue point where you can tell the camera to use a higher standard minimum shutter speed. So the camera would choose 1/200th in the above case. Then again, you are having a similar risk of camera shake as with the crop sensor.

So, long story told shortly: High MP resolution cameras are great. But to have tack sharp handheld photos, you will need a higher shutter speed (50% = 2 x quicker I would apply) or IS on your lens, compared to FF 21 MP cameras. Same applies by the way to lenses: you will start seeing smaller blurs that you previously not noticed with mediocre lenses. As well as your focussing - small errors start being visible at 1:1 view.


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## jeffa4444 (Oct 2, 2017)

Eldar said:


> I have used mine primarily handheld, with everything from 11-24 to 600 and it works fine. With the 24-70 f2.8L II (no IS) I can do 1/FL in shutter speed. To be on the safe side I do 1/2xFL. With IS lenses it´s of course different. I have pixle peeped a lot and believe this problem is a bit exaggerated (I know I am fairly steady though).
> 
> Who should use this camera and who should not ... that´s the question. To me, as long as your computer can process and you have enough disk space, I´d say you can use this camera for anything but sports, action and low light events (even though it is much better in low light than I had expected).
> 
> I´m crossing my fingers for the new 1DX-II. Until then, I find a 1DX/5DSR combo to fill just about any need I can come up with. My 5DIII will most likely be inherited by my son.


I would 2nd this opinion. Ive found the "steadiness" issue to be not as bad as everyone imagined it to be when the camera came out. I shoot studio portraits hand-held with strobes with shutter set at 160th and anything up to 200mm. Like Eldar I use the EF 24-70mm f2.8L USM II a lot and have not really seen a material difference in sharpness compared to say the EF 70-200mm f2.8L IS USM II or the EF 100 f2.8L IS USM.


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## Jopa (Oct 2, 2017)

jeffa4444 said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > I have used mine primarily handheld, with everything from 11-24 to 600 and it works fine. With the 24-70 f2.8L II (no IS) I can do 1/FL in shutter speed. To be on the safe side I do 1/2xFL. With IS lenses it´s of course different. I have pixle peeped a lot and believe this problem is a bit exaggerated (I know I am fairly steady though).
> ...



I think it's no difference than shooting a regular APS-C camera, so 1.5x-2x should apply to the shutter speed.


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## Sporgon (Oct 2, 2017)

Jopa said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > Eldar said:
> ...



The full frame is larger and so any rotational movement is exaggerated compared with a smaller frame. So theoretically if you see 2x with a 20 mp crop camera you’d have to be more with the FF


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