# Canon EOS R6 announcement moved to July [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 4, 2020)

> I have been told that the official announcement for the Canon EOS R6 will not happen until July now. This is coming from two sources and contradicts our own report from two weeks ago that said the camera was still scheduled for announcement in May.
> I have also been told not to expect the Canon EOS R6 to begin shipping until late Q3 in 2020, which sounds like August/September.
> I haven’t been told if we’ll get a similar development announcement for the EOS R6 that we have had for the EOS R5, but I can’t see that happening.
> *Canon EOS R6 Specifications:*
> ...



Continue reading...


----------



## DBounce (May 4, 2020)

Can’t say I’m surprised. Let’s hope that the R5 stays on schedule.


----------



## Mark3794 (May 4, 2020)

I hope the R5 announcement will be in May, i can't read anymore the fanboys saying over and over "15 seconds record limit in 8k" "It's just a piece of plastic it won't even turn on" "2022 announcement"


----------



## Stuart (May 4, 2020)

Damm, i was looking forward to hearing how that would work, and whether is was a video/vlog targeted body, or a cheap entry RF mount FF model that might replace my 6D one day.


----------



## ahsanford (May 4, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> I hope the R5 announcement will be in May, i can't read anymore the fanboys saying over and over "15 seconds record limit in 8k" "It's just a piece of plastic it won't even turn on" "2022 announcement"




I'm wondering if there is an R5 surprise that allows Canon to sell it at a 5D price point yet still get the bigger dollars for the 8K functionality.

I still think it's a $3499 body, but I would not be shocked at all if there was a one-time service center trip + nasty fee or expensive external bolt-on required to get 8K working. But I haven't obsessed over each wave of announcements -- I don't know if Canon has already stated if that will / will not be the case.

- A


----------



## edoorn (May 4, 2020)

DBounce said:


> Can’t say I’m surprised. Let’s hope that the R5 stays on schedule.


yeah me too. I hope that if this is true, the reason for doing it is to free up resources for the R5.


----------



## DBounce (May 4, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I'm wondering if there is an R5 surprise that allows Canon to sell it at a 5D price point yet still get the bigger dollars for the 8K functionality.
> 
> I still think it's a $3499 body, but I would not be shocked at all if there was a one-time service center trip + nasty fee or expensive external bolt-on required to get 8K working. But I haven't obsessed over each wave of announcements -- I don't know if Canon has already stated if that will / will not be the case.
> 
> - A


I wouldn’t mind seeing a higher compression ratio enabled for raw with the handgrip, as I believe that would avoid Red’s patent... meaning Canon could implement this higher compression ratio without fear of legal repercussions from Red.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (May 4, 2020)

edoorn said:


> yeah me too. I hope that if this is true, the reason for doing it is to free up resources for the R5.


Sounds likely.. I think they will be very much focused on the R5


----------



## slclick (May 4, 2020)

SWWYH


----------



## Wikzo (May 4, 2020)

I always thought it was a bit weird that they would talk about R5 and R6 at the same time (May?). Wouldn't it be better to spread the announcements out a bit so there is more focus on each one?


----------



## herein2020 (May 4, 2020)

I hope this rumor is wrong, the R6 is the only new camera from Canon that I plan to buy.


----------



## puffo25 (May 4, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Sounds likely.. I think they will be very much focused on the R5



Me too


----------



## SV (May 4, 2020)

All hands on deck for the R5


----------



## Chaitanya (May 4, 2020)

Expected and its been a trend across all industries. Even AMD, nVidia and Intel moved their announcements in wake of current human malware.


----------



## Whowe (May 4, 2020)

Agree. I also think we are crazy if we don't think this is going to push the R5 also. Canon said they were looking at releasing with low inventory or waiting till fall with higher inventory. I think this answers that question.


----------



## bbasiaga (May 4, 2020)

Time to send the Canon Rumors black ops team in to canon headquarters to find a pre-production R6 body and confirm all the specs. Two more months is not acceptable!


----------



## Mark3794 (May 4, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I'm wondering if there is an R5 surprise that allows Canon to sell it at a 5D price point yet still get the bigger dollars for the 8K functionality.
> 
> I still think it's a $3499 body, but I would not be shocked at all if there was a one-time service center trip + nasty fee or expensive external bolt-on required to get 8K working. But I haven't obsessed over each wave of announcements -- I don't know if Canon has already stated if that will / will not be the case.
> 
> - A


Sounds like no, they already specified "internal 8k" many times, also the C-log paid upgrade for the 5DmkIV came long after the camera was shipping, they never announced the 5DmkIV having C-log in the original specs

Price is a big mistery right now... Specswise even 4k$ would be reasonable, there is simply no camera with the same specs


----------



## Mark3794 (May 4, 2020)

bbasiaga said:


> Time to send the Canon Rumors black ops team in to canon headquarters to find a pre-production R6 body and confirm all the specs. Two more months is not acceptable!


FBI OPEN UP

https://tenor.com/view/fbi-raid-swat-gif-11500735


----------



## H. Jones (May 4, 2020)

Here I sit desperately hoping I could still have an R5 in my hands by August and slowly realizing that probably won't be the case even if I get the very first preorder


----------



## slclick (May 4, 2020)

A new level of patience needs to be applied here. I'll take these new dates and add a few months and I'm going to stop reading every little thing, it's got to be unhealthy. Bigger issues at play right now.


----------



## usern4cr (May 4, 2020)

DBounce said:


> I wouldn’t mind seeing a higher compression ratio enabled for raw with the handgrip, as I believe that would avoid Red’s patent... meaning Canon could implement this higher compression ratio without fear of legal repercussions from Red.


Why would a handgrip make any difference regarding patent infringement?


----------



## mpb001 (May 4, 2020)

I’m not surprised at all. We haven’t even seen the phantom R6 body. Only the R5.


----------



## Ozarker (May 4, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Why would a handgrip make any difference regarding patent infringement?


Grip delivered as a firmware update?


----------



## victorshikhman (May 4, 2020)

I'm surprised all new camera/lens announcements were not suspended a month ago. If broader retail sales are any indication, everyone in the camera business just got clobbered the last two months, even more than they already were with falling sales, with more pain coming. Releasing new products into this environment is madness.


----------



## Etienne (May 4, 2020)

The R6 may end up being the better value of the two -- R5 / R6
The R5 looks like it will be the raw cutting edge, but it will come at a price.
The main specs that disappoint me on the R6 are, oddly enough, the lower quality viewfinder and the lower build quality.
The rest of the specs look quite good for my purposes, but of course it will depend on how it is implemented.

I'll still likely go for the R5, this being the last pro body that I will purchase.


----------



## R1-7D (May 4, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I'm wondering if there is an R5 surprise that allows Canon to sell it at a 5D price point yet still get the bigger dollars for the 8K functionality.
> 
> I still think it's a $3499 body, but I would not be shocked at all if there was a one-time service center trip + nasty fee or expensive external bolt-on required to get 8K working. But I haven't obsessed over each wave of announcements -- I don't know if Canon has already stated if that will / will not be the case.
> 
> - A



I expect something like this too -- you get the photo-centric features and some basic video features for the base price, and if you want the 8K RAW features you pony up.


----------



## Richard Anthony (May 4, 2020)

Canon will be cutting it fine , with the R5 and R6 if they don't get them out soon , they are going to be bordering on releasing 4 bodies close to each other in 2021 at this rate .


----------



## twoheadedboy (May 4, 2020)

victorshikhman said:


> I'm surprised all new camera/lens announcements were not suspended a month ago. If broader retail sales are any indication, everyone in the camera business just got clobbered the last two months, even more than they already were with falling sales, with more pain coming. Releasing new products into this environment is madness.



Canon needs to sell something. If they feel the R5 is a truly market-leading product, and the design was already 95% done, then there's no reason to make that camera instead of more 5D IV's, which would also slow the transition from EF to RF in the long run. The 5D IV probably costs less to manufacture but again triggers purchase of EF glass (if any), whereas another RF body causes more RF glass to be bought as well.


----------



## davidhfe (May 4, 2020)

DBounce said:


> Can’t say I’m surprised. Let’s hope that the R5 stays on schedule.



I'm definitely preparing for both these cameras to be "paper launches." Given both the demand and likely supply constraints, I think it's gonna be tough to get your hands on an R5, and Canon wants to make sure demand there is fulfilled before the R6 hits shelves.


----------



## Architect1776 (May 4, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



This better come in at $599.00 with a kit 24-105 lens.


----------



## neurorx (May 4, 2020)

I do wonder how this translate to the R5 announcement and pre-order timeline. If I recall correctly the R6 was to be launched first. Given all the camera announcement mentions of R and M cameras this year...is there really a market for all of them right now in this economy?


----------



## neurorx (May 4, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I'm definitely preparing for both these cameras to be "paper launches." Given both the demand and likely supply constraints, I think it's gonna be tough to get your hands on an R5, and Canon wants to make sure demand there is fulfilled before the R6 hits shelves.


Yes I wish they would just go ahead and start the pre-orders so I can stare at my email to see if my shipment notice comes.


----------



## jam05 (May 4, 2020)

Don't see any supply chain operating at full capacity anytime soon. Would not suggest waiting for any "In Stock" update. Most units will be sold preorder.


----------



## EverydayPhotographer (May 4, 2020)

Not surprising at all, other than maybe being surprised that it took this long for it to leak. Asia has basically been shut down for three months; something had to give.


----------



## mb66energy (May 4, 2020)

Etienne said:


> The R6 may end up being the better value of the two -- R5 / R6
> The R5 looks like it will be the raw cutting edge, but it will come at a price.
> The main specs that disappoint me on the R6 are, oddly enough, the lower quality viewfinder and the lower build quality.
> The rest of the specs look quite good for my purposes, but of course it will depend on how it is implemented.
> ...



I am a little bit confused about both cameras too: The R6 seems well equipped for low light which is IMO a domain of fast and "built like a tank" cameras in rough environments: Journalists near crime scenes, documentary of people on odd places (oil well logging, mines etc) but it seems to have the weaker built.
... while the R5 has lots of resolution well suited for landscape etc. but the toughter built and much more speed.

For me it is about video quality: I only need robust full sensor 4k (maybe I need it ... depends on my ideas and progress to try a documentary, video is hard compared to photography, so many variables, so many possibilities).


----------



## marioslrzn (May 4, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I hope this rumor is wrong, the R6 is the only new camera from Canon that I plan to buy.


Yeah but Canon is trying to sell RF glass, and people that buy the R5 are more likely to buy RF glass vs R6


----------



## DBounce (May 4, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Why would a handgrip make any difference regarding patent infringement?


IIRC, Red’s patent only covers compressed raw “in-camera”. Which is why companies like Atomos are able to make a business case for external raw capture. If the compression is handled by a chip in the handgrip it avoids running into such legal issues.
I think many believe it is technical challenges that that prevent higher compression ratios for raw internally, whereas this is primarily a legal issue.


----------



## ildyria (May 4, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> This better come in at $599.00 with a kit 24-105 lens.


I think you missplaced the "."


----------



## overniven (May 4, 2020)

With the 20MP body, does that mean there will be "DEEPER PIXELS? 

I currently use an RP and an M5, and this sounds like its upgrade, except it's a downgrade in MP versus both(26/24MP)? This seems odd unless they are doing something we don't know about. Really good lowlight?


----------



## davidhfe (May 4, 2020)

overniven said:


> With the 20MP body, does that mean there will be "DEEPER PIXELS?
> 
> I currently use an RP and an M5, and this sounds like its upgrade, except it's a downgrade in MP versus both(26/24MP)? This seems odd unless they are doing something we don't know about. Really good lowlight?



I personally don't think there's anything here beyond a likely re-use (or development based off of) the 1DX3 sensor as a cost savings. It's pretty clear their current (non 1DX3) sensors aren't up to the task when it comes to speed/af responsiveness. It's also unclear what other body a brand new 24-26mp full frame sensor would go into that would justify the cost, and there'd be limit IQ gains over 20.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (May 4, 2020)

I am hoping the R5 and R6 share bodies and it is just a choice between low light performance and high megapixels. Lets them reduce costs and keeps things simple for accessories. But they might surprise with with a high megapixel camera that also outclasses everyone else in low light.


----------



## Architect1776 (May 4, 2020)

ildyria said:


> I think you missplaced the "."



It sounds like a FF Rebel to me.


----------



## davidhfe (May 4, 2020)

overniven said:


> With the 20MP body, does that mean there will be "DEEPER PIXELS?
> 
> I currently use an RP and an M5, and this sounds like its upgrade, except it's a downgrade in MP versus both(26/24MP)? This seems odd unless they are doing something we don't know about. Really good lowlight?



Also, there should be a clear IQ gain over the RP (and the M5, but that's a crop camera so not apples to apples). The better AA filter and dynamic range (a full two stop difference!) should make for a much better overall image.


----------



## KeithBreazeal (May 4, 2020)

DBounce said:


> IIRC, Red’s patent only covers compressed raw “in-camera”. Which is why companies like Atomos are able to make a business case for external raw capture. If the compression is handled by a chip in the handgrip it avoids running into such legal issues.
> I think many believe it is technical challenges that that prevent higher compression ratios for raw internally, whereas this is primarily a legal issue.


I've mentioned more than once that the grip has the room for external processing/memory via a fiber optic link in the base plate. It would make it an excellent workaround not only for patent considerations, but for increasing processing power and spreading out the heat generated when shooting video.


----------



## mb66energy (May 4, 2020)

KeithBreazeal said:


> I've mentioned more than once that the grip has the room for external processing/memory via a fiber optic link in the base plate. It would make it an excellent workaround not only for patent considerations, but for increasing processing power and spreading out the heat generated when shooting video.


I think the 200D has some electronic inside its grip, maybe (for shure!) with some fibre optic data connection. The grip gets warm during video compared to e.g. M50s back side (around sensor location) - maybe its only a voltage converter but heat is heat and slightly warmer sensors are always better than hot sensors.
And 200D has slightly cleaner IQ compared to the M50 while sharing similar sensors - not measured, just oberved.


----------



## SteveC (May 4, 2020)

Total speculation:

Is it possible someone has decided that 20MP would be a mistake--if nothing else, from a marketing standpoint--and they're looking at a somewhat higher resolution sensor?


----------



## slclick (May 4, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Total speculation:
> 
> Is it possible someone has decided that 20MP would be a mistake--if nothing else, from a marketing standpoint--and they're looking at a somewhat higher resolution sensor?


I could see that with a company who was in business for a short time....Canon? nah, it's something else. Maybe they are going to blow our minds and break the MP stigma. I'll be first in line to lower my megapickles for better IQ and DR. (5D3)


----------



## vjlex (May 4, 2020)

Today the state of emergency was extended in Japan, so that may have something to do with it...


----------



## usern4cr (May 4, 2020)

DBounce said:


> IIRC, Red’s patent only covers compressed raw “in-camera”. Which is why companies like Atomos are able to make a business case for external raw capture. If the compression is handled by a chip in the handgrip it avoids running into such legal issues.
> I think many believe it is technical challenges that that prevent higher compression ratios for raw internally, whereas this is primarily a legal issue.


If it really is only a legal issue (which is believable) then ReallyRightStuff could sell a full-body-width 1/2" high ArcaSwiss quick release base plate for the R5 and instead of having empty space inside most of that baseplate it could have electronics to do raw compression, extra memory storage, extra battery etc. You could get a lot of stuff packed into something that high, and still have a A.S. quick release!

Keep in mind that I will be one of many who will definitely buy a ArcaSwiss base plate (with L bracket) and not a full bottom battery&vertical grip, so this could be a real business opportunity for any manufacturer who sees the potential!


----------



## Ozarker (May 4, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Total speculation:
> 
> Is it possible someone has decided that 20MP would be a mistake--if nothing else, from a marketing standpoint--and they're looking at a somewhat higher resolution sensor?


No


----------



## usern4cr (May 4, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> I am hoping the R5 and R6 share bodies and it is just a choice between low light performance and high megapixels. Lets them reduce costs and keeps things simple for accessories. But they might surprise with with a high megapixel camera that also outclasses everyone else in low light.


Low light performance does not have to be inherently dependent on MP, rather it's dependent on total sensor size and quantum efficiency & well depth. You can fudge with pixel size & pixel lensing elements & pixel well depth and adjust ISO all you want, but it comes down to how much light in total hits the area of your sensor, and how many of those photons you can sense. Between the R5 and R6 the sensor size is identical and I don't think the MP difference is the driving factor. I think the main thing is how the sensors are designed in pixel lensing, efficiency and well depth. You may find they're about the same or that either one is better than the other in low light.


----------



## PureClassA (May 4, 2020)

Disappointing, but not surprising. Obviously this put a dent in the supply chain.


----------



## PureClassA (May 4, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> I hope the R5 announcement will be in May, i can't read anymore the fanboys saying over and over "15 seconds record limit in 8k" "It's just a piece of plastic it won't even turn on" "2022 announcement"


Well in ALL -I 4k Canon is at 480MB/sec. 8K is 4 times that. Now It probbaly wont be 2GB/sec but I'd bet at least 1GB/sec, hence the necessity for CFExpress that can record up to 1.7GB/sec.

So if you're using a 64GB CFExpress card... yeah that might actually be about ONE MINUTE in 8k. Even a $400 256GB CFExpress card would still only get 4-5 mins or so.

Again, I dont think Canon intended 8K to be a widely used factor. This camera is about showing off the other kids who still has the biggest junk on the block.

So it's NOT a Canon limitation. It's a limitation of recording medium. And short of putting an SDI bank on the R5 (never happening for various reasons) there's no way to sling that much data out the camera to an external, and there isn't even an external yet that can do it, because a typical 2.5" SSD is still too slow.

So if you see the Sony Fanboys bitching, remind them... uhh it's NOT Canon.... It's the Card makers that can't keep up with Canon.


----------



## Doug7131 (May 4, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Well in ALL -I 4k Canon is at 480MB/sec. 8K is 4 times that. Now It probbaly wont be 2GB/sec but I'd bet at least 1GB/sec, hence the necessity for CFExpress that can record up to 1.7GB/sec.
> 
> So if you're using a 64GB CFExpress card... yeah that might actually be about ONE MINUTE in 8k. Even a $400 256GB CFExpress card would still only get 4-5 mins or so.


You are confusing Bytes with bits here. The stated bitrate for the 1DXIII is 470Mb/s ALL-i which is 59MB/s. So 8K would be roughly 240MB/s. Giving you about 5m on a 64GB card and 20m on a 256GB card.


----------



## davidhfe (May 4, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Well in ALL -I 4k Canon is at 480MB/sec. 8K is 4 times that. Now It probbaly wont be 2GB/sec but I'd bet at least 1GB/sec, hence the necessity for CFExpress that can record up to 1.7GB/sec.
> 
> So if you're using a 64GB CFExpress card... yeah that might actually be about ONE MINUTE in 8k. Even a $400 256GB CFExpress card would still only get 4-5 mins or so.
> 
> ...



One small note, codecs are typically specified in bits, card capacities are typically in bytes. Unless my math is wrong, the situation isn't *quite* as severe as above:

- 5.5K 30fps raw on the 1DX3 is 1800Mbps per dpreview, so that's about 18 minutes on a 256 MB CFe card.
- 480Mbps is doable on high-spec UHS-II cards. I'd expect to get an ALL-I 4K codec that works to both/either card, and that bit rate would allow for over an hour.
- 8K raw will be a monster for sure, but I'd guess you'll be around 10min on a 256GB card
- 8K 30 I'd expect to see a codec that's more in the 500-1000mbps range. Maybe 30 mins to a 256?

Edit: Ninja'd!


----------



## victorshikhman (May 4, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> Canon needs to sell something. If they feel the R5 is a truly market-leading product, and the design was already 95% done, then there's no reason to make that camera instead of more 5D IV's, which would also slow the transition from EF to RF in the long run. The 5D IV probably costs less to manufacture but again triggers purchase of EF glass (if any), whereas another RF body causes more RF glass to be bought as well.



Canon isn't selling much of anything. Only a very small number of an already shrinking customer base would commit to a $3500 camera right now, in the midst of a global pandemic, job insecurity, etc. It's not about selling the 5DIV vs the R5. Their sales are probably down 50% or more, and as savings are used up around the world, luxuries like a new camera are not going to be on many minds. Of course, pros who need one and are still making money will get one, but that's a very small market. This is probably the time to hunker down, pause all R&D, reduce marketing, manufacturing and capital expenses and hoard cash, not release several blockbuster cameras. Maybe they feel they have nothing to lose with the R5, it's already done. But it makes total sense to delay the R6.


----------



## usern4cr (May 4, 2020)

victorshikhman said:


> Canon isn't selling much of anything. Only a very small number of an already shrinking customer base would commit to a $3500 camera right now, in the midst of a global pandemic, job insecurity, etc. It's not about selling the 5DIV vs the R5. Their sales are probably down 50% or more, and as savings are used up around the world, luxuries like a new camera are not going to be on many minds. Of course, pros who need one and are still making money will get one, but that's a very small market. This is probably the time to hunker down, pause all R&D, reduce marketing, manufacturing and capital expenses and hoard cash, not release several blockbuster cameras. Maybe they feel they have nothing to lose with the R5, it's already done. But it makes total sense to delay the R6.


Well, I still am guessing the R5 will come out at $2,999 - $3,499 (I know most disagree, but I'm sticking to it). I'd be willing to buy it for sure, and I'll spend probably 2 times more for additional lenses. And I think there will be plenty of others to do so. For Canon to not sell it soon, when they can, is just to let more sales slip to their competition, and admit defeat. And I just don't see them doing that.


----------



## AEWest (May 4, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I personally don't think there's anything here beyond a likely re-use (or development based off of) the 1DX3 sensor as a cost savings. It's pretty clear their current (non 1DX3) sensors aren't up to the task when it comes to speed/af responsiveness. It's also unclear what other body a brand new 24-26mp full frame sensor would go into that would justify the cost, and there'd be limit IQ gains over 20.


It might be more attractive for many to have a 30+ mp camera such as the R but with IBIS and AF joystick (R Mark II?) that doesn't have a 12fps frame rate or the latest and greatest video specs. 

Maybe that is one of the two cameras rumored for next year?


----------



## unfocused (May 4, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> ...For Canon to not sell it soon, when they can, is just to let more sales slip to their competition, and admit defeat. And I just don't see them doing that.



"...when they can..." is the operative phrase here. 

The global supply chain has been decimated. It will be a long time before supplies meet demand for any manufacturer. Anyone who has been paying attention can see that Canon, its competitors, third party manufacturers and retailers are all searching their stockrooms for anything they can find and offering great buys to clear out inventory as they all try to salvage as much of their revenue projections as they can. 

As far as letting "more sales slip to their competition" or admitting "defeat," we've heard those ridiculous fictions so many times it doesn't warrant a response.

I suspect Canon is trying to strike a balance between when they make any announcements and when the product is likely to actually ship. They are probably comfortable with announcements that precede ship dates by two to three months, but beyond that they risk customers losing interest. Announce in July, start shipping in September. Pre-orders fulfilled from Sept to November, then a slow dribble of product for the next three to six months.


----------



## Adelino (May 4, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Total speculation:
> 
> Is it possible someone has decided that 20MP would be a mistake--if nothing else, from a marketing standpoint--and they're looking at a somewhat higher resolution sensor?


Too late for mistakes at this point. That was decided two years ago.


----------



## joestopper (May 4, 2020)

edoorn said:


> yeah me too. I hope that if this is true, the reason for doing it is to free up resources for the R5.



I hope so too.
Speaking for it: The R5 is a technology lead/highlight. The longer it takes to get it to market the higher the chance the competitors come out with the same specs -- and leadership is gone.
Since this does not hold for R6, it makes sense to postpone that one.


----------



## unfocused (May 5, 2020)

One comment about all the talk of an R6 using the same sensor as the 1Dx III. Of course we have no idea whether that will be the case or not, but even if it is, it sounds to me, from reading Canon's white paper on the 1DxIII and from reviews and samples online, most of the "magic" come from the processing in the camera. The increased low light capability seems to mostly be in Canon's treatment of jpgs. So, even if they used the exact same sensor, it is highly unlikely that an R6 would have the same sophisticated processing algorithms that are applied to the 1Dx III.


----------



## slclick (May 5, 2020)

When they can is now a term for customers as well. A lot of folks can't pay rent/mortgage, the key thing is like Viktor said "...luxuries like a new camera". If you used one to put food on your table or a roof over your heads, your current gear will still do that IF you have the jobs or clients. A new one isn't changing anything. Unless you are that one guy.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (May 5, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> Here I sit desperately hoping I could still have an R5 in my hands by August and slowly realizing that probably won't be the case even if I get the very first preorder


Most of us will be very lucky to have one in our hands by Xmas IMO. The demand for this will be insane, and supply will struggle. I have zero expectations of getting one before 2021 and if the price is over $4KUSD, then where I live Canon will slap a $7K RRP and there will be no discounting probably until mid 2021 unless the camera fails to live upto the hype and specs.


----------



## unfocused (May 5, 2020)

slclick said:


> When they can is now a term for customers as well. A lot of folks can't pay rent/mortgage, the key thing is like Viktor said "...luxuries like a new camera". If you used one to put food on your table or a roof over your heads, your current gear will still do that IF you have the jobs or clients. A new one isn't changing anything. Unless you are that one guy.


There seems to be an interesting divide on this forum -- one that is reflected in much of the current Coronavirus impact everywhere. Not trying to make a political comment at all, but it seems like there are those who are significantly impacted by the pandemic economics -- on this forum that includes nearly everyone who uses a camera to earn a living. Then, there are many who are insulated (at least for the time being) from the financial impact. There appear to be a substantial number of enthusiasts on this forum who fit into that category. 

I kind of have one foot in each world. I use my camera to earn income that supplements my retirement income. I know I am very lucky because I can pay my bills without the photography income. Although I have lost several jobs because events are not being held and I have missed the entire spring sports season at the college that I work for part time. So, I like to think that I have some sympathy for those who are mid-career and need the work to earn their living, even if I am lucky enough not to share their circumstances. 

For those that are not impacted I have one comment: complaining about a few months delay in camera releases won't and shouldn't get you any sympathy.


----------



## Ozarker (May 5, 2020)

slclick said:


> When they can is now a term for customers as well. A lot of folks can't pay rent/mortgage, the key thing is like Viktor said "...luxuries like a new camera". If you used one to put food on your table or a roof over your heads, your current gear will still do that IF you have the jobs or clients. A new one isn't changing anything. Unless you are that one guy.


Things are bad. Even TFP shooters like myself are doing nothing around here in DFW. I really feel for the photographers (everyone really) who are not making their living right now. I am seeing a lot of gear, some very recently acquired, being sold on Facebook marketplace.

Not to be too pessimistic, but I think we are still at the very beginning of all this. I'll be hanging on to any money I have until I see the economic storm clouds lift for a good solid year. I think many will do the same. The recovery will be very slow for most. While there is a lens (yet to be announced or released) I'd like to have, it can wait however long it takes. I sure won't get pissed off that Canon has to delay things like I've seen some do. To me, that's just selfishness. I've got some neighbors with young children. I'd rather wait to see if they need some help.


----------



## Ozarker (May 5, 2020)

unfocused said:


> For those that are not impacted I have one comment: complaining about a few months delay in camera releases won't and shouldn't get you any sympathy.


Damn straight!


----------



## victorshikhman (May 5, 2020)

I know many, myself included, visit the forums as a fun distraction, and I didn't mean to bring things down. Whoever has the money to splurge on gear right now, enjoy! We need your gluttonous reckless spending to support the global economy. Just kidding! I hope everyone here stays safe and is able to enjoy all this gear for many more years in good health.


----------



## fox40phil (May 5, 2020)

I m still hoping for 24MP instead of only 20MP...!


----------



## Jethro (May 5, 2020)

unfocused said:


> One comment about all the talk of an R6 using the same sensor as the 1Dx III. Of course we have no idea whether that will be the case or not, but even if it is, it sounds to me, from reading Canon's white paper on the 1DxIII and from reviews and samples online, most of the "magic" come from the processing in the camera. The increased low light capability seems to mostly be in Canon's treatment of jpgs. So, even if they used the exact same sensor, it is highly unlikely that an R6 would have the same sophisticated processing algorithms that are applied to the 1Dx III.


Absolutely - and the iDX III will have multiple digics involved in that processing, as opposed to the R6's one. It may well be the same sensor, but this shows up the limited role sensors play in camera performance in 2020.


----------



## davidhfe (May 5, 2020)

unfocused said:


> One comment about all the talk of an R6 using the same sensor as the 1Dx III. Of course we have no idea whether that will be the case or not, but even if it is, it sounds to me, from reading Canon's white paper on the 1DxIII and from reviews and samples online, most of the "magic" come from the processing in the camera. The increased low light capability seems to mostly be in Canon's treatment of jpgs. So, even if they used the exact same sensor, it is highly unlikely that an R6 would have the same sophisticated processing algorithms that are applied to the 1Dx III.





Jethro said:


> Absolutely - and the iDX III will have multiple digics involved in that processing, as opposed to the R6's one. It may well be the same sensor, but this shows up the limited role sensors play in camera performance in 2020.



A couple of random notes on this:
- The 1DX3 has a single Digic X, and that's basically where the camera's horsepower comes from. Seems like any additional chips are more about PDAF AF/iTR/metering, etc--that's all stuff that's DSLR specific.
- At the speeds stated for the R6, I'd be surprised if they didn't use a variant of the Digic X. My personal impression is that a lot of canon's mirrorless performance will hinge on this chip's architect. I'll grant that Digic X is probably more of a platform than a specific chip, and it might not be identical to the 1DX3, but folks--they're not going to stuff a Digic 8 in this. 
- When talking about IQ, I was referring to RAW DR performance. Digic shouldn't matter here.
- If (and yea, it's a big if) they are using the same sensor, I'd expect pretty much identical images. Canon has no need to protect the IQ of the 1DX3, that's not the name of the game for that camera.

I'm going off of the rumors here, but I find it unfathomable that canon would create a second FF 20mp chip suitable for ILC cameras.


----------



## slclick (May 5, 2020)

Is it strange for me to wonder that if the R6 has everything a potential customer wanted but since it only had 20 mp they would pass on it? I find that bizarre. Fallout of the megapickles war of the 00's and teens. Give me IQ and DR improvements over the 5D3 with an R5 style body and I'm in. I don't care if they manage it with 12mp.


----------



## usern4cr (May 5, 2020)

slclick said:


> Is it strange for me to wonder that if the R6 has everything a potential customer wanted but since it only had 20 mp they would pass on it? I find that bizarre. Fallout of the megapickles war of the 00's and teens. Give me IQ and DR improvements over the 5D3 with an R5 style body and I'm in. I don't care if they manage it with 12mp.


I would also say that if a new R6 camera has everything a customer wanted, plus a big shiny full frame sensor that just happened to have 20MP, *and* be at a competitive price they could afford, they would be *very* happy with it. I'm assuming that they also get a good lens to go with it, also at a price they can afford. The quality of a camera like that is so far ahead of what they would have been using that they should be elated.

Now, with that said, which lens should be in the kit that is offered for them to buy, and what price should that whole kit cost?


----------



## Ozarker (May 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Now, with that said, which lens should be in the kit that is offered for them to buy, and what price should that whole kit cost?


An RF 35mm f/1.8 or RF 50mm f/1.8 or a 50-250mm zoom.


----------



## slclick (May 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> I would also say that if a new R6 camera has everything a customer wanted, plus a big shiny full frame sensor that just happened to have 20MP, *and* be at a competitive price they could afford, they would be *very* happy with it. I'm assuming that they also get a good lens to go with it, also at a price they can afford. The quality of a camera like that is so far ahead of what they would have been using that they should be elated.
> 
> Now, with that said, which lens should be in the kit that is offered for them to buy, and what price should that whole kit cost?


I really don't see what any glass has to do with the equation/my post. You're making it into a price thing. I'm talking about image quality potential and to some extent, ergonomics.


----------



## SecureGSM (May 5, 2020)

mb66energy said:


> I think the 200D has some electronic inside its grip, maybe (for shure!) with some fibre optic data connection. The grip gets warm during video compared to e.g. M50s back side (around sensor location) - maybe its only a voltage converter but heat is heat and slightly warmer sensors are always better than hot sensors.
> And 200D has slightly cleaner IQ compared to the M50 while sharing similar sensors - not measured, just oberved.


The grip gets warmer due to batteries inside the grip drawing more current in the video mode or continuous shooting. There is no electronics inside the grip... and there is no any other processor / logic there. Bottleneck for an off-chip processing is the bus (speed) and ability to multi-Processor and multitask.
in a few words. Highly unlikely at this time.


----------



## SecureGSM (May 5, 2020)

unfocused said:


> One comment about all the talk of an R6 using the same sensor as the 1Dx III. Of course we have no idea whether that will be the case or not, but even if it is, it sounds to me, from reading Canon's white paper on the 1DxIII and from reviews and samples online, most of the "magic" come from the processing in the camera. The increased low light capability seems to mostly be in Canon's treatment of jpgs. So, even if they used the exact same sensor, it is highly unlikely that an R6 would have the same sophisticated processing algorithms that are applied to the 1Dx III.


A much faster sensor readout speed is what was missing in R and RP. Hence a laggy EVF and lethargic continuous speed and tracking. 
1DxIII sensor readout speed seems was greatly improved. So.... commercially, I seen no reason why it cannot be re used in R6. Definitely makes perfect sense to me. However , Canon would likely Claim a “new” sensor was used. Tongue in cheek kinda...


----------



## Bahrd (May 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Low light performance does not have to be inherently dependent on MP, rather it's dependent on total sensor size and quantum efficiency & well depth.


If a "low light performance" refers to "a photon deficit" case, why is a well depth a factor?


----------



## scottkinfw (May 5, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I'm wondering if there is an R5 surprise that allows Canon to sell it at a 5D price point yet still get the bigger dollars for the 8K functionality.
> 
> I still think it's a $3499 body, but I would not be shocked at all if there was a one-time service center trip + nasty fee or expensive external bolt-on required to get 8K working. But I haven't obsessed over each wave of announcements -- I don't know if Canon has already stated if that will / will not be the case.
> 
> - A


Good thought. On the positive side, who needs 8K right now? I would prefer the additional 20=/- res of the R5 and in the future, if needed, would gladly send the camera in for servicing and upgrade to 8K.


----------



## scottkinfw (May 5, 2020)

victorshikhman said:


> I'm surprised all new camera/lens announcements were not suspended a month ago. If broader retail sales are any indication, everyone in the camera business just got clobbered the last two months, even more than they already were with falling sales, with more pain coming. Releasing new products into this environment is madness.


OTOH, there are some people (like me) who naturally are on the upgrade cycle and have saved for just a Sanon camera just like this. I can't be alone in this. The big question is how many people are comfortable enough to pull the trigger. Time will tell.


----------



## justaCanonuser (May 5, 2020)

slclick said:


> A new level of patience needs to be applied here. I'll take these new dates and add a few months and I'm going to stop reading every little thing, it's got to be unhealthy. Bigger issues at play right now.


I recommend to just do it like me: go out shooting, if you don't get too close to people, or just tidy your image archives. There is always plenty to do in photography, that's at least my experience.


----------



## justaCanonuser (May 5, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Grip delivered as a firmware update?


That's so typical rumors: there isn't yet any real image of the R6 body to be seen, and people already come up with grips. What, if the R6 will have no batteries but a pump grip like those classic mechanically powered flashlights? Just to save the planet and support those traveling to really remote places?


----------



## justaCanonuser (May 5, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I really feel for the photographers (everyone really) who are not making their living right now. I am seeing a lot of gear, some very recently acquired, being sold on Facebook marketplace.


I am with you, I know some pro's whose business has been shrinked to zero now, and I am really happy to be an amateur. In fact, I always was. If I would have to make a living from photography/videography, all the happy playfulness would be lost for me.


----------



## justaCanonuser (May 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Low light performance does not have to be inherently dependent on MP, rather it's dependent on total sensor size and quantum efficiency & well depth. You can fudge with pixel size & pixel lensing elements & pixel well depth and adjust ISO all you want, but it comes down to how much light in total hits the area of your sensor.


That's true, but pixel wise it is a trade-off. If the number of photons that hit the sensor per image is low, it makes more sense to split them over 20 MP only than 45 or 60 MP. Also be careful with quantum efficiency, because in particular with (quantum) noise there is a lot of non-linearity coming into the game (gain, read-out circuits etc.). We are quickly ending up comparing apples with peaches here with such a general discussion. That said, if you design a camera particularly for low-light performance, it doesn't make much sense to go for a high pixel count. The image from a high MP camera may not contain more useful image information than from a low MP camera, at high ISOs (we forget here about the fact, that information theory does regard noise as information ).


----------



## justaCanonuser (May 5, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> It sounds like a FF Rebel to me.


without a mirror, that's the rebellion here


----------



## justaCanonuser (May 5, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> So if you see the Sony Fanboys bitching, remind them... uhh it's NOT Canon.... It's the Card makers that can't keep up with Canon.


I LOVE to see Sony fanboys bitching, that's the main reason why I sometimes visit DPR - if I want some fun  

A typical Sony fanboy works like a Pavlov dog, if he (100 % male) reads "Canon" elsewhere. Btw it has been proved that an electronic "dog" does need a tiny neural network of only 3 artificial neurons to be trained the Pavlov way.


----------



## justaCanonuser (May 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Well, I still am guessing the R5 will come out at $2,999 - $3,499 (I know most disagree, but I'm sticking to it). I'd be willing to buy it for sure, and I'll spend probably 2 times more for additional lenses. And I think there will be plenty of others to do so. For Canon to not sell it soon, when they can, is just to let more sales slip to their competition, and admit defeat. And I just don't see them doing that.


Here's the CR R5 betting office: how much do you want to invest in your bet? 100 US-$ okay?


----------



## justaCanonuser (May 5, 2020)

victorshikhman said:


> ... luxuries like a new camera are not going to be on many minds...


Will be interesting to watch how Leica as a luxury brand now fares financially...


----------



## Mark3794 (May 5, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> I LOVE to see Sony fanboys bitching, that's the main reason why I sometimes visit DPR - if I want some fun
> 
> A typical Sony fanboy works like a Pavlov dog, if he (100 % male) reads "Canon" elsewhere. Btw it has been proved that an electronic "dog" does need a tiny neural network of only 3 artificial neurons to be trained the Pavlov way.


At least you don't have to deal with Sony fanboys in real life.
I had two second shooters in a wedding talking all day long about their sony cameras and how i'll see the superior iso performance and autofocus.
Watching the video at home i was wondering if they sent me the wrong folder with smartphone videos

(I know it's user error and sony camera are perfectly capable and even better sometimes, but it was so much fun watching all those videos after all the bragging about sony)


----------



## Bennymiata (May 5, 2020)

Some companies have successfully used a tactic in times of poor sales, that they should get sales up by releasing exciting products, rather than shrinking into their shell.
This may be Canon's thinking.
I can't remember Canon ever touting a new camera so much well before its release date.


----------



## Fran Decatta (May 5, 2020)

Just hope to see AF system for still photography and DR of the images in this camera. If both are, even just a little bit better, than actual eos R, would be my camera until it dies. May be I will miss sometimes thos 10 extra mpx, but is fine to sacrifice that


----------



## victorshikhman (May 5, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Will be interesting to watch how Leica as a luxury brand now fares financially...



They'll likely be fine, for two reasons. 

1) Germans support their industry, which they see as a factor in social stability.

2) Most people who buy Leicas will get through this period in much better shape. They are more likely to be working higher paid information-based jobs where telecommuting is an option, so they'll keep getting paid. Normal people within a few lost paychecks of not being able to pay their rent were never thinking Leica. They go to a BestBuy or Costco and get a M50 or an RP with kit lens. Or if they really save up, they order an R from B&H.


----------



## mb66energy (May 5, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> The grip gets warmer due to batteries inside the grip drawing more current in the video mode or continuous shooting. There is no electronics inside the grip... and there is no any other processor / logic there. Bottleneck for an off-chip processing is the bus (speed) and ability to multi-Processor and multitask.
> in a few words. Highly unlikely at this time.


Never observed batteries getting substantially warmer during video - not M50, not RP.
200D has shurely now CPU or other processing logics in the grip but voltage converter might make sense ...
Maybe I have to xray that camera after end of life - do not like dead pixels by xrays.


----------



## usern4cr (May 5, 2020)

slclick said:


> I really don't see what any glass has to do with the equation/my post. You're making it into a price thing. I'm talking about image quality potential and to some extent, ergonomics.


If you only want to talk about the body, that's fine. But if someone has enough money to buy a R5 then I see no reason for them to seriously consider a R6. After sticking a lens on each body there will probably be little difference in weight to worry about. And I anticipate no benefit in image quality in the R6 over the R5. And I doubt that there will be any other advantage in the R6 over the R5, while the R5 will have significant advantages over the R6.

The main reason someone would opt for the R6 over the R5 is cost. They can afford one, but not the other. Therefore it is imperative to consider which lens they will use, as it is the total cost of their purchase that they have to justify before buying any of it.


----------



## slclick (May 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> If you only want to talk about the body, that's fine. But if someone has enough money to buy a R5 then I see no reason for them to seriously consider a R6. After sticking a lens on each body there will probably be little difference in weight to worry about. And I anticipate no benefit in image quality in the R6 over the R5. And I doubt that there will be any other advantage in the R6 over the R5, while the R5 will have significant advantages over the R6.
> 
> The reason someone would opt for the R6 over the R5 is cost. They can afford one, but not the other. Therefore it is imperative to consider which lens they will use, as it is the total cost of their purchase that they have to justify before buying any of it.


Not true,, I can afford either, I will buy according to my imaging needs. I will source the best tool for my shooting manners not just get the shiniest toy in the store. 

I think people should pause each time they start a post with "No one..", "Everyone..." and the like.


----------



## CombatWombat (May 5, 2020)

In your R6 description, what is a “top-down screen”? Several Canon cameras have fully articulated LCD screens, very useful for vloggers and also for still photographers taking both horizontal and vertical photos from low and high angles.Is this what’s meant?


----------



## slclick (May 5, 2020)

CombatWombat said:


> In your R6 description, what is a “top-down screen”? Several Canon cameras have fully articulated LCD screens, very useful for vloggers and also for still photographers taking both horizontal and vertical photos from low and high angles.Is this what’s meant?


It's the small LCD on the top panel of the body as seen in the attachment here on the R which shows the current setting i.e. P, C1-3, M, Av, Tv whatnot


----------



## usern4cr (May 5, 2020)

Bahrd said:


> If a "low light performance" refers to "a photon deficit" case, why is a well depth a factor?


While I am not an expert (and am sometimes wrong), this is how I understand this issue:

The rate of total sensor photons (converted to electrons) captured per unit time affects how sensitive your camera is, but at a certain point you can't hold any more electrons for the brightest areas and thus must (typically) stop your exposure to avoid serious highlight burnout. If there is subject motion in low lighting then you will probably have to stop exposure before the highlight well depth is reached and therefore bigger well depth won't matter.

But in low light if there is good IS(image stabilization) to limit hand shake, and a non-moving main subject, then you are able to take a much longer exposure of the subject. If this exposure is longer than the time for the highlight wells to fill then you will be (typically) have to end(earlier) your exposure time. If you had a bigger well depth then you could have extended your exposure time to get a better quality image.

So, many things can determine whether the well depth makes any difference or not. As the light gets dimmer and dimmer then you can indeed say that well depth should not matter. I included mentioning it since in most cases (except very low light) it will have a major effect on image quality.


----------



## usern4cr (May 5, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Here's the CR R5 betting office: how much do you want to invest in your bet? 100 US-$ okay?


But look at how many more people think the R5 will come out *above* $3,500 - many mentioning prices up to (and sometimes beyond) $6,000. Now a seasoned betting man would recognize this and decide to give "odds" as appropriate. So if you feel strongly that it will be $3,500 or more (as I assume you do) then what odds would you be willing to give in order to make the bet?


----------



## usern4cr (May 5, 2020)

slclick said:


> Not true,, I can afford either, I will buy according to my imaging needs. I will source the best tool for my shooting manners not just get the shiniest toy in the store.
> 
> I think people should pause each time they start a post with "No one..", "Everyone..." and the like.


Fair enough. If you read my response you will notice I never mentioned "No one..." or "Everyone...". However in 2 places I could have inserted words such as "in my opinion..." etc. So I have gone back and done that. I do pause before submitting my posts - re-reading them many times. I also edit them afterwards if I think I should have worded them differently. And yes, I will strive to be even more careful in the future. Probably some on this site could try to be more careful, ... you might want to consider it, too.

If you can afford a R5 and instead choose to get a R6, then I'm glad you're happy with that choice. If you can post your reasons for that decision, then please do so for me and others to consider so that we can all make better choices. We're all better off with Canon offering both.


----------



## fasterquieter (May 5, 2020)

I only want to know, will it have the same processor as the R5 and will it record the 4K using HEVC? If yes, I'm sold. If no, I'll stick with my Panasonic for video for now. Bummer I won't find out until July!


----------



## navastronia (May 5, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Will be interesting to watch how Leica as a luxury brand now fares financially...



In a pandemic, the rich are still rich. They will continue to buy Leicas unabated.


----------



## slclick (May 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Fair enough. If you read my response you will notice I never mentioned "No one..." or "Everyone...". However in 2 places I could have inserted words such as "in my opinion..." etc. So I have gone back and done that. I do pause before submitting my posts - re-reading them many times. I also edit them afterwards if I think I should have worded them differently. And yes, I will strive to be even more careful in the future. Probably some on this site could try to be more careful, ... you might want to consider it, too.
> 
> If you can afford a R5 and instead choose to get a R6, then I'm glad you're happy with that choice. If you can post your reasons for that decision, then please do so for me and others to consider so that we can all make better choices. We're all better off with Canon offering both.


I've been around CR long enough, but thanks for your unsolicited advice



Since we don't know enough to make educated decisions, I will save that for the future. It's all conjecture at this point.


----------



## unfocused (May 5, 2020)

I'm surprised by the number of people on this forum who seem to have already decided that they are not only going to buy one of these two bodies, but which one they are buying and how much it is going to cost. All based on rumors and advertising, without any solid details about either camera, their performance or the real price.

Now it's just a matter of waiting for the inevitable cries of disappointment when reality fails to match up with the fantasy. That will provide months of entertainment.


----------



## Danglin52 (May 5, 2020)

ildyria said:


> I think you missplaced the "."


I think it was good, he just missed the "$3," in front of the 599.00


----------



## davidhfe (May 5, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I'm surprised by the number of people on this forum who seem to have already decided that they are not only going to buy one of these two bodies, but which one they are buying and how much it is going to cost. All based on rumors and advertising, without any solid details about either camera, their performance or the real price.
> 
> Now it's just a matter of waiting for the inevitable cries of disappointment when reality fails to match up with the fantasy. That will provide months of entertainment.



To be fair, it's not like folks are waving around a blank check for a big question mark of a camera. We know an awful lot about this product, and folks are generally realistic about the limits that we're likely to hit, especially on the video side. But there's no reason to doubt the headline stills features:

- 12/20 shooting. Canon has cameras that can do this. With the removal of the mirror, there's no reason why faster mechanical rates can't come to the 5 series
- 45 MP with good DR. Canon's recent chips have been great for DR, and we know canon can make high res sensors
- Auto focus has been proven out quite well with the 1DX3
- The biggest question mark for me is EVF lag and performance, but we know good EVFs exist out there (Sony, Leica) and I don't really see a reason why there won't be a marked improvement from the R.

Anyways, if Canon drops this at $4500+ there is going to be a lot of storm und drang for sure. But those just aren't the signals Canon has been sending.


----------



## Czardoom (May 5, 2020)

slclick said:


> Is it strange for me to wonder that if the R6 has everything a potential customer wanted but since it only had 20 mp they would pass on it? I find that bizarre. Fallout of the megapickles war of the 00's and teens. Give me IQ and DR improvements over the 5D3 with an R5 style body and I'm in. I don't care if they manage it with 12mp.



I couldn't agree more. It is bizarre - and possibly because a lot of folks only read specs and take few photos. Just my experience - which I know may differ from others, but there is no way I would be able to tell the difference between 20MP and 26. I started with the 6 MP 300D, and after a few years I thought I should upgrade to the 12 MP newer rebel. On my screen, and when printing up to 8" x 12", there was no noticeable difference. It wasn't until the 18Mp sensor came out that I began to notice the difference in resolution, but only when I printed around 10" x 15" prints. I seem to recall that it was thought that one needed to triple the MPs for a person to notice the difference on a standard monitor or typical 10" print. These are pics taken hand-held, I might add. Using a tripod might make those extra MPS more noticeable. But, to each their own. That's my experience. So people can feel free to ignore it and keep complaining about things that will in almost all circumstances. make no difference.


----------



## slclick (May 5, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> To be fair, it's not like folks are waving around a blank check for a big question mark of a camera. We know an awful lot about this product, and folks are generally realistic about the limits that we're likely to hit, especially on the video side. But there's no reason to double the big stuff, especially from a stills perspective:
> 
> - 12/20 shooting. Canon has cameras that can do this. With the removal of the mirror, there's no reason why faster mechanical rates can't come to the 5 series
> - 45 MP with good DR. Canon's recent chips have been great for DR, and we know canon can make high res sensors
> ...


"this product"

You must mean the R5 which is not the topic of this thread. We know a decent amount about the R5 but nothing of the R6, Canon hasn't said a peep. It's all been rumor and quoted rumor sources.

Once again, unfocused nailed it.


----------



## FramerMCB (May 6, 2020)

Jethro said:


> Absolutely - and the iDX III will have multiple digics involved in that processing, as opposed to the R6's one. It may well be the same sensor, but this shows up the limited role sensors play in camera performance in 2020.


You know the 1DX Mk III only has one Digic Processor right? It has the newly developed DIGIC X processor.


----------



## Jethro (May 6, 2020)

FramerMCB said:


> You know the 1DX Mk III only has one Digic Processor right? It has the newly developed DIGIC X processor.


Actually I hadn't noticed that, I'd assumed it had a separate AF-based chip, but looking at the specs it has: "a single processor that replaces two DIGIC 6+ processors in the previous EOS-1D X Mark II camera." Pretty remarkable!


----------



## davidhfe (May 6, 2020)

Jethro said:


> Actually I hadn't noticed that, I'd assumed it had a separate AF-based chip, but looking at the specs it has: "a single processor that replaces two DIGIC 6+ processors in the previous EOS-1D X Mark II camera." Pretty remarkable!



You were initially correct—mostly—there is a DIGIC 8 as well. However, it only supports DSLR functions—metering, PDAF. My guess is they didn't bother porting those functions to DIGIC X because they won't be needed much going forward 



> During viewfinder shooting, the EOS-1D X Mark III adds a dedicated DIGIC 8 processor, previously Canon’s highest-performance processor, strictly for AF management and control of the 400,000 pixel RGB metering sensor.



From the white paper: https://www.canonrumors.com/files/Canon_EOS_1DX_Mark_III_Still_White_Paper.pdf


----------



## Twinix (May 6, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> (...)
> 
> If you can afford a R5 and instead choose to get a R6, then I'm glad you're happy with that choice. If you can post your reasons for that decision, then please do so for me and others to consider so that we can all make better choices. We're all better off with Canon offering both.



I'm in the same situation, and registered an account just to answer you. 
As of now, I mainly do broadcast work (both with big cameras and smaller productions), and small docs/news/journalistic type work, and event type videos. But I also deliver photos, and have that as mostly a hobby and smaller part of my income, often at the same time as I do broadcast. Still enjoy it as much as a hobby/ fun income projects. 

So, why will I probably go for the R6 over R5? Right now, I got a Canon XA50 for video. It has XLR, and covers my needs, for the most part. A R6 will not cover what I am missing. What I'm missing, a updated C100 II would give me. The problem with the C100 II is that its old and not 4K recording. It just does not make sense for me to buy that old of an camera when my XA50 has 4K. Not that I need that as of now, but still. Could of course buy a C200, but not looking to buy a Cinema camera this year, and not next year either. Not needing RAW, and it has some other minor things that could be different.

So the R6 would for me be as a B or C camera. Right now I got a Nikon D5300, with a 16-80 2.8-4 lens. And I'm really happy with it, the image quality is great for me. Only thing missing is better low light and autofocus in video. And, for video, also matching colors and a bit more "cinematic" quality, plus dual card slots. I got that on my XA50, also a Cinema camera will have it, so therefor, for me the R6 should have it. 

Simply, I don't need, or want to know that I have 8K, 4K 120p, RAW etc.
So, for photo camera together with me filming for videos, or as a C cam in broadcasting, the R6 seems great for me. 

Hope this explains it clear, but please ask if you have questions or thoughts as I am more than happy to answer.


----------



## usern4cr (May 6, 2020)

Twinix said:


> I'm in the same situation, and registered an account just to answer you.
> As of now, I mainly do broadcast work (both with big cameras and smaller productions), and small docs/news/journalistic type work, and event type videos. But I also deliver photos, and have that as mostly a hobby and smaller part of my income, often at the same time as I do broadcast. Still enjoy it as much as a hobby/ fun income projects.
> 
> So, why will I probably go for the R6 over R5? Right now, I got a Canon XA50 for video. It has XLR, and covers my needs, for the most part. A R6 will not cover what I am missing. What I'm missing, a updated C100 II would give me. The problem with the C100 II is that its old and not 4K recording. It just does not make sense for me to buy that old of an camera when my XA50 has 4K. Not that I need that as of now, but still. Could of course buy a C200, but not looking to buy a Cinema camera this year, and not next year either. Not needing RAW, and it has some other minor things that could be different.
> ...


Thanks for your detailed reply. It seems that you don't need the high end video specs that the R5 is coming out with and as a "B" camera you don't need whatever other features it has over the R6. That makes a lot of sense.

So, in your case, the main (or only?) driving factor to get the R6 is a reduced cost for B camera use, I assume? 

The only other issue I could imagine is if you think the larger pixels in it's 20MP sensor vs R5 45MP sensor would give you better low light quality? I'm curious if that was part of the decision, as that question seems to be an endlessly argued debate. I think it will only truly be answered when both are released and thoroughly tested. My guess is that there will be no appreciable difference, but we'll see.


----------



## Twinix (May 6, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Thanks for your detailed reply. It seems that you don't need the high end video specs that the R5 is coming out with and as a "B" camera you don't need whatever other features it has over the R6. That makes a lot of sense.
> 
> So, in your case, the main (or only?) driving factor to get the R6 is a reduced cost for B camera use, I assume?
> 
> The only other issue I could imagine is if you think the larger pixels in it's 20MP sensor vs R5 45MP sensor would give you better low light quality? I'm curious if that was part of the decision, as that question seems to be an endlessly argued debate. I think it will only truly be answered when both are released and thoroughly tested. My guess is that there will be no appreciable difference, but we'll see.



Yes, I could buy the R5, but I don't need or want the extra megapixels, or knowing that I have that number of MP. So simply price to performance.
With low light performance and that discussion I don't know how much MP actually has to say, but all the best/better low light cameras have lower MP. Nikon D5, 1DX II, A7S II and so on. So at least it's not negative, right? Anyways, as the D5300 is both cheaper, older and has a smaller sensor the R6 will have better low light performance. Let's say it has max ISO of 51 200, it will probably be usable for me up to about 25600 ISO. 

Really exited to see what Canon actually comes out with, as of now the R6 doesn't exist at all officially.


----------



## justaCanonuser (May 6, 2020)

navastronia said:


> In a pandemic, the rich are still rich. They will continue to buy Leicas unabated.


But only guaranteed virus free Leicas


----------



## justaCanonuser (May 6, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> But look at how many more people think the R5 will come out *above* $3,500 - many mentioning prices up to (and sometimes beyond) $6,000. Now a seasoned betting man would recognize this and decide to give "odds" as appropriate. So if you feel strongly that it will be $3,500 or more (as I assume you do) then what odds would you be willing to give in order to make the bet?


Yeah, good question, but this was just a joke, so let's try more serious guessing. I personally expect the R5 to come on the same price level like the 5D cameras, including a typical inflation with every new model. The 5D Mk IV hit the European market with € 4000, when it was new, the 5D Mk III in 2011 with about € 3100, so that logic would go for € 4999 for Europe as an initial price. Main competitors are currently the Nikon Z7 (body:€ 3000), the Sony A9 and A7RIV (both € 3600 for the bodies). Since the step from the 5D II to III, Canon really changed their pricing strategy to a premium level. So I'd expect something around € 4000 and higher for Europe. If it will come cheaper, all the better for us.


----------



## justaCanonuser (May 6, 2020)

unfocused said:


> All based on rumors and advertising


This is a precise definition of the Internet as a whole


----------



## usern4cr (May 6, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Yeah, good question, but this was just a joke, so let's try more serious guessing. I personally expect the R5 to come on the same price level like the 5D cameras, including a typical inflation with every new model. The 5D Mk IV hit the European market with € 4000, when it was new, the 5D Mk III in 2011 with about € 3100, so that logic would go for € 4999 for Europe as an initial price. Main competitors are currently the Nikon Z7 (body:€ 3000), the Sony A9 and A7RIV (both € 3600 for the bodies). Since the step from the 5D II to III, Canon really changed their pricing strategy to a premium level. So I'd expect something around € 4000 and higher for Europe. If it will come cheaper, all the better for us.


Yeah, I thought your comment was more in fun, which my reply was also. 

€4,000 is a well thought out, and probably much more agreed upon estimate. You mentioned Euros, but often US prices are a little less, so I'm guessing you'd say $4,000 US as well? I wouldn't be surprised whatsoever if that's what it came out at.

I think it's really about how much Canon wants to jumpstart their attack to take the market share lead in the FF mirrorless segment. They could be in their 'normal' price setting mood, or their "fire all the cannons and take no prisoners!" mood. I'm guessing more of the latter, but it's just a guess with a whole lot of hope (since if the price gets too high then I have a hard time justifying immediately buying in versus waiting for the R5s if I'm going to spend that much).

One day soon we'll have the unveiling of the price. That'll be quite a day, either way!


----------



## Del Paso (May 6, 2020)

navastronia said:


> In a pandemic, the rich are still rich. They will continue to buy Leicas unabated.


Remember the "Oil Shock" in the seventies?
2 companies which fared well were Rolls Royce and Mercedes Benz.
Absolutely no worries, Leicas sell well !
The question rather is whether the rich feel like buying...
PS: not all Leica customers are rich, far from it !


----------



## slclick (May 6, 2020)

Can we have a recap of what Canon has shared with us about the R6? Not CR, not CN...Canon. 

Without discussing the R5?


----------



## Twinix (May 6, 2020)

slclick said:


> Can we have a recap of what Canon has shared with us about the R6? Not CR, not CN...Canon.
> 
> Without discussing the R5?


As far as I know Canon has not shared a single thing about the R6. I agree about keeping the focus on R6 here, and definitely a post should not have its focus on just the R5.


----------



## davidhfe (May 6, 2020)

slclick said:


> Can we have a recap of what Canon has shared with us about the R6? Not CR, not CN...Canon.
> 
> Without discussing the R5?



The glib answer here is if you're not interested in discussing rumored specs this might not be the best place to hang out, as the R6 hasn't (as far as I remember--but hey, been a crazy few months) publicly confirmed to even exist 

But, honestly, what I was trying to get at in a previous post (regardless of a pre-coffee moment getting my threads mixed up) is that regardless of what Canon has said about it so far, the R6 isn't going to be released into a vacuum. We know:

- A lot about the R5 via official channels, which gives an upper bound on the performance an R6 will have and the sorts of parts available for an R6
- A little bit of inference (e.g. sensor size given 8K shooting has to be 39-45mp) about that camera as well
- A lot about the 1DX mark III, which reviewers have in some cases likened to a mirrorless camera minus the EVF
- What the competition has had on the market for _years_ at the entry FF level, and associated pricing
- Where these model numbers have traditionally landed in terms of price/performance/build/innovation/etc

If ya add all that up, even before throwing in the CR2/3 rumors, you could start to hone in on a pretty good idea about where an R6 might land. There'll be surprises for sure, and where the R5 hits in terms of pricing is a big one! I'm also surprised at 20mp (it seems low) and 12/20 shooting (seems high) but both those decisions make sense if you think of the R6 as borrowing heavily from other products which are either officially announced or actually released.

Anyways, it seems super reasonable to use what we do know to speculate about what we don't, and folks are using that speculation to try and get an idea about how much they'll need to drop on a camera that meets theirs needs & budget when these two models actually ship.


----------



## navastronia (May 6, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> The glib answer here is if you're not interested in discussing rumored specs this might not be the best place to hang out, as the R6 hasn't (as far as I remember--but hey, been a crazy few months) publicly confirmed to even exist
> 
> But, honestly, what I was trying to get at in a previous post (regardless of a pre-coffee moment getting my threads mixed up) is that regardless of what Canon has said about it so far, the R6 isn't going to be released into a vacuum. We know:
> 
> ...





slclick said:


> Can we have a recap of what Canon has shared with us about the R6? Not CR, not CN...Canon.
> 
> Without discussing the R5?



I think what slclick is asking is reasonable. In the past few months, these forums are always talking about the R5 and R6 as if these cameras are on equal footing, i.e., we know that each exists as well as some basic specs. This is really not true.

I'm sure slclick is as happy as any of us to talk about rumored specs, but their point hits on a key issue: we have no confirmation of anything pertaining to the R6 at all, which makes speculation a little different for that camera than it is for the R5 (and less fun, I might add - if you know even one detail for sure, e.g., that the R5 shoots 8K video, you have a foothold and can start guessing from there. Not the case with the R6).


----------



## slclick (May 6, 2020)

navastronia said:


> I think what slclick is asking is reasonable. In the past few months, these forums are always talking about the R5 and R6 as if these cameras are on equal footing, i.e., we know that each exists as well as some basic specs. This is really not true.
> 
> I'm sure slclick is as happy as any of us to talk about rumored specs, but their point hits on a key issue: we have no confirmation of anything pertaining to the R6 at all, which makes speculation a little different for that camera than it is for the R5 (and less fun, I might add - if you know even one detail for sure, e.g., that the R5 shoots 8K video, you have a foothold and can start guessing from there. Not the case with the R6).


Thank you for saying what I neglected to be clear on. I'm all about the rumors here, been here longer than most of you. 

However in this R5 vs R6 topic, one is semi announced and the other is semi-vaporware. I like the sound of both. I just can't put the same logic into both bodies, they deserve to be considered in separate mindsets.

Once Canon comes out with some info, then we'll have a thread or two with gusto!


----------



## Max TT (May 7, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



This is getting really sickening now... Waiting 3 months to finally hear wait another 3 months. Fck you Canon


----------



## slclick (May 7, 2020)

Max C said:


> This is getting really sickening now... Waiting 3 months to finally hear wait another 3 months. Fck you Canon


Oh did you just emerge from a meditation retreat in the desert? I hope you came out refreshed and centered. Well, a lot has happened since your journey inward. There's been a pandemic...unsettling, I understand.


----------



## Max TT (May 7, 2020)

slclick said:


> Oh did you just emerge from a meditation retreat in the desert? I hope you came out refreshed and centered. Well, a lot has happened since your journey inward. There's been a pandemic...unsettling, I understand.



I know, I don't mind the wait for shipping time... But I am anxious to know more about the official features and price point. They could at least give us that. I thought my wait was going to be over this month. So extremely disappointed!


----------



## derpderp (May 7, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> I would also say that if a new R6 camera has everything a customer wanted, plus a big shiny full frame sensor that just happened to have 20MP, *and* be at a competitive price they could afford, they would be *very* happy with it. I'm assuming that they also get a good lens to go with it, also at a price they can afford. The quality of a camera like that is so far ahead of what they would have been using that they should be elated.
> 
> Now, with that said, which lens should be in the kit that is offered for them to buy, and what price should that whole kit cost?



hmmmm.... 20mp is a little underwhelming. I'd be ok if its 24mp.


----------



## derpderp (May 7, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> At least you don't have to deal with Sony fanboys in real life.
> I had two second shooters in a wedding talking all day long about their sony cameras and how i'll see the superior iso performance and autofocus.
> Watching the video at home i was wondering if they sent me the wrong folder with smartphone videos
> 
> (I know it's user error and sony camera are perfectly capable and even better sometimes, but it was so much fun watching all those videos after all the bragging about sony)



I've used both Canon and Sony for videos. It appears to me that Canon's video autofocus is less twitchy / smoother than Sony's, but the Sony tends to stick to the subject's face/eye more consistently. In terms of video quality (1080p), i prefer the Canon's. Can't compare 4K video quality because of the ridiculous 1.8x crop on the EOS R.

Just my two cents.


----------



## Mark3794 (May 7, 2020)

derpderp said:


> I've used both Canon and Sony for videos. It appears to me that Canon's video autofocus is less twitchy / smoother than Sony's, but the Sony tends to stick to the subject's face/eye more consistently. In terms of video quality (1080p), i prefer the Canon's. Can't compare 4K video quality because of the ridiculous 1.8x crop on the EOS R.
> 
> Just my two cents.


Exactly, the sony directly jumps to the subject while the canon "focus pulls" in a more cinematic way. However when the sony autofocus misses you notice more.
Since there is the mith that Sony cameras have insane lowlight, the standard sony user tends to crank up the iso to much and it looks bad even on a sony


----------



## SecureGSM (May 7, 2020)

Max C said:


> I know, I don't mind the wait for shipping time... But I am anxious to know more about the official features and price point. They could at least give us that. I thought my wait was going to be over this month. So extremely disappointed!


There is a better way of venting your dissatisfaction or disappointment then posting disrespectful, rude messages on CR. I hope you understand


----------



## Fast351 (May 7, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> I would also say that if a new R6 camera has everything a customer wanted, plus a big shiny full frame sensor that just happened to have 20MP, *and* be at a competitive price they could afford, they would be *very* happy with it. I'm assuming that they also get a good lens to go with it, also at a price they can afford. The quality of a camera like that is so far ahead of what they would have been using that they should be elated.
> 
> Now, with that said, which lens should be in the kit that is offered for them to buy, and what price should that whole kit cost?



I think the prosumer that would be looking at the R6 because of price (IE the R5 at $3500 will be too much of a spend) would be looking at a $1500 body and an $750 lens for a $2250 price. That probably means a 24-105/f4 lens of some kind. 

Pure speculation of course...


----------



## Fast351 (May 7, 2020)

Twinix said:


> As far as I know Canon has not shared a single thing about the R6. I agree about keeping the focus on R6 here, and definitely a post should not have its focus on just the R5.



That's the most interesting thing to me. Not a single breath about R6. No way they fully announce in May. Sure would be nice to just do a development announcement like they did with R6.


----------



## Twinix (May 7, 2020)

Fast351 said:


> That's the most interesting thing to me. Not a single breath about R6. No way they fully announce in May. Sure would be nice to just do a development announcement like they did with R6.


Yes, but at the same time - how much is it to hype about this camera? Its not spec-wise more interesting, and Canon is alone on the podium when it comes to rumors/whats new/ going to come soon. They got a lot of attention. I think we will see the announcement or teaser max a month before the first one is shipping. Not guessing when it will launch.


----------



## usern4cr (May 7, 2020)

Fast351 said:


> I think the prosumer that would be looking at the R6 because of price (IE the R5 at $3500 will be too much of a spend) would be looking at a $1500 body and an $750 lens for a $2250 price. That probably means a 24-105/f4 lens of some kind.
> 
> Pure speculation of course...


I agree. In fact, I think the 24-105/f4 is a *really* high quality lens from everything I've read, and that would make for a truly stunning setup at a pretty low price considering.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 8, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> This better come in at $4,599.00 with a kit 24-105 lens.



There, fixed it for you.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 8, 2020)

Bennymiata said:


> Some companies have successfully used a tactic in times of poor sales, that they should get sales up by releasing exciting products, rather than shrinking into their shell.
> This may be Canon's thinking.
> I can't remember Canon ever touting a new camera so much well before its release date.



In hindsight, I wonder how much the view of the approaching storm from Wuhan influenced their decision in January to start leaking _major_ information about the R5?


----------



## Michael Clark (May 8, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I think it was good, he just missed the "$3," in front of the 599.00



"$4" when you include the $1K lens.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 8, 2020)

Jethro said:


> Actually I hadn't noticed that, I'd assumed it had a separate AF-based chip, but looking at the specs it has: "a single processor that replaces two DIGIC 6+ processors in the previous EOS-1D X Mark II camera." Pretty remarkable!



It probably still has a separate chip for AF, but so did the 1D X and 1D X Mark II in addition to their dual DiG!C _image_ processors.

Chuck Westfall once made a comment that the 1D X Mark II had a DiG!C 5 level processor for AF and metering, and combining the two using iTR, in addition to the dual DiG!C 6+ image processors. In the same comment he noted that the 5D Mark IV had the same DiG!C 5 equivalent chip for AF/metering/iTR in addition to the single DiG!C 6+ image processor.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 8, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Yeah, good question, but this was just a joke, so let's try more serious guessing. I personally expect the R5 to come on the same price level like the 5D cameras, including a typical inflation with every new model. The 5D Mk IV hit the European market with € 4000, when it was new, the 5D Mk III in 2011 with about € 3100, so that logic would go for € 4999 for Europe as an initial price. Main competitors are currently the Nikon Z7 (body:€ 3000), the Sony A9 and A7RIV (both € 3600 for the bodies). Since the step from the 5D II to III, Canon really changed their pricing strategy to a premium level. So I'd expect something around € 4000 and higher for Europe. If it will come cheaper, all the better for us.



Didn't the Euro fluctuate quite a bit versus the yen between 2012 (not 2011), when the 5D Mark III came out, and 2016 when the 5D Mark IV was introduced?

In the U.S. the 5D Mark III had a manufacturer's suggested retail price of $3,499 when introduced in 2012.

In the U.S. the 5D Mark IV had a manufacturer's suggested retail price of $3,499 when introduced in 2016.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 8, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Yeah, I thought your comment was more in fun, which my reply was also.
> 
> €4,000 is a well thought out, and probably much more agreed upon estimate. You mentioned Euros, but often US prices are a little less, so I'm guessing you'd say $4,000 US as well? I wouldn't be surprised whatsoever if that's what it came out at.
> 
> ...



The European price would already reflect the Value Added Tax placed on all products. In the U.S., sales tax would not be reflected in the MSRP. Exchange rates between the USD and Euro are not 1:1, either.

A price of €4,000 less 15% VAT converted to USD is currently $3,780 at today's spot exchange rates.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 8, 2020)

slclick said:


> Can we have a recap of what Canon has shared with us about the R6? Not CR, not CN...Canon.
> 
> Without discussing the R5?



The following is everything officially released regarding the EOS R6:


----------



## koenkooi (May 9, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The European price would already reflect the Value Added Tax placed on all products. In the U.S., sales tax would not be reflected in the MSRP. Exchange rates between the USD and Euro are not 1:1, either.
> 
> A price of €4,000 less 15% VAT converted to USD is currently $3,780 at today's spot exchange rates.



Apart from Switzerland (7%) and Luxembourg (17%) VAT varies between 19% and 28% in Europe. Taking 20% off €4000 brings it to $3510 at this morning's exchange rates. 

But there's more fluctuation, for months the RF50 was about 25% cheaper at Best Buy, even including CA sales tax than it was here, with 21% VAT.


----------



## justaCanonuser (May 9, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Didn't the Euro fluctuate quite a bit versus the yen between 2012 (not 2011), when the 5D Mark III came out, and 2016 when the 5D Mark IV was introduced?


Yes, but I didn't follow always the prices, I think currency fluctuations are always part of this game. When the 5D4 hit the market back in 2016, it was Germany priced closely to 4 k€ (if you didn't risk to buy in the grey market). I remember this because I decided then to stick for a while with my 5D3 and wait with the upgrade until the 5D4's price drops substantially. In the spring of 2012 I got one of the first 5D3's that arrived at my local dealer at Frankfurt, and I had to pay 3125 € back then, if I remember correctly. I kept my 5D3 until February 2020 and then traded it in for a 5D4, triggered by Canon's cash-back action. My 5D3 had more than 150.000 actuations and still worked perfectly, it looked a bit scarred because I used it a lot for wildlife. The 5D3 was the first digital camera I really fell in love with btw, despite its well-known weaknesses. If you metered a bit carefully, it could produce great images.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 10, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Yes, but I didn't follow always the prices, I think currency fluctuations are always part of this game. When the 5D4 hit the market back in 2016, it was Germany priced closely to 4 k€ (if you didn't risk to buy in the grey market). I remember this because I decided then to stick for a while with my 5D3 and wait with the upgrade until the 5D4's price drops substantially. In the spring of 2012 I got one of the first 5D3's that arrived at my local dealer at Frankfurt, and I had to pay 3125 € back then, if I remember correctly. I kept my 5D3 until February 2020 and then traded it in for a 5D4, triggered by Canon's cash-back action. My 5D3 had more than 150.000 actuations and still worked perfectly, it looked a bit scarred because I used it a lot for wildlife. The 5D3 was the first digital camera I really fell in love with btw, despite its well-known weaknesses. If you metered a bit carefully, it could produce great images.



The introductory prices quoted above for the 5D Mark III in 2012 and 5D Mark IV in 2016 in the U.S. are both the pre-tax prices from authorized U.S. dealers at the MSRP (manufacturer's suggested retail price). They were both $3,499 at launch.


----------



## Sporgon (May 11, 2020)

unfocused said:


> One comment about all the talk of an R6 using the same sensor as the 1Dx III. Of course we have no idea whether that will be the case or not, but even if it is, it sounds to me, from reading Canon's white paper on the 1DxIII and from reviews and samples online, most of the "magic" come from the processing in the camera. The increased low light capability seems to mostly be in Canon's treatment of jpgs. So, even if they used the exact same sensor, it is highly unlikely that an R6 would have the same sophisticated processing algorithms that are applied to the 1Dx III.


I would guess that the architecture of the 1D series sensors, the filters, micro lenses etc are of a greater quality and more expensive to produce than those in a lesser camera. Therefore I’d have thought there is zero chance of a complete 1D series sensor being dropped into a budget model.


----------



## koenkooi (May 11, 2020)

Sporgon said:


> I would guess that the architecture of the 1D series sensors, the filters, micro lenses etc are of a greater quality and more expensive to produce than those in a lesser camera. Therefore I’d have thought there is zero chance of a complete 1D series sensor being dropped into a budget model.



And here's it's about moving the sensor + EF flange based microlenses to 1dx sensor + RF flange based microlenses. So regardless of cost, a different microlens array is needed for the R6.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 16, 2020)

Sporgon said:


> I would guess that the architecture of the 1D series sensors, the filters, micro lenses etc are of a greater quality and more expensive to produce than those in a lesser camera. Therefore I’d have thought there is zero chance of a complete 1D series sensor being dropped into a budget model.



You might be guessing and thinking wrong.


----------



## Sporgon (May 16, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> You might be guessing and thinking wrong.


On the higher quality of the 1 series sensor components or dropping the complete sensor into a budget body ? Or both maybe ?


----------



## BillB (May 16, 2020)

Sporgon said:


> On the higher quality of the 1 series sensor components or dropping the complete sensor into a budget body ? Or both maybe ?


Or maybe the selling price of the R6. Budget pricing means different things to different people. I would not be surprised if it‘s initial price is the same as the initial price of the R.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 17, 2020)

Sporgon said:


> On the higher quality of the 1 series sensor components or dropping the complete sensor into a budget body ? Or both maybe ?



On higher QA tolerances. Just because a part is more expensive to make or is intended for a more expensive product does not guarantee that the manufacturer/purchaser of said part will require higher levels of QC. Quite the contrary, they often do everything they can to keep the number of rejects as low as possible.

Within the Canon ecosystem we saw the same basic 18MP sensor in everything from the APS-C "flagship" 7D to the lowly Rebel T6/1300D.

Obviously the microlens array should be modified to account for the different angles of incidence due to the shorter registration distance when comparing the 1D X Mark III to the R6.


----------



## SecureGSM (May 17, 2020)

Sporgon said:


> On the higher quality of the 1 series sensor components or dropping the complete sensor into a budget body ? Or both maybe ?


this is my take on this, if I may:

1. R6 is not a competition to 1DxIII. not even remotely in the range of the target audience of a Canon 1 series camera.
2. R6 will outsell 1Dx III in ration to 100:1(a figurative number, not an estimation) - for all the obvious reasons. price, form factor, capacity of the target market.
3. placing a sensor that is used in a 1 series camera will allow Canon to say: Look, guys. we are giving you the best sensor we use in our top of the range pro series bodies. step up to Canon quality, unleash your creativity, we have got your back 
4. 1Dx III sensor is a new generation, fast readout sensor. #2 above will allow Canon to recover capital investment in design and manufacturing of the new generation of sensors much faster.
5. #4 above will allow for a more aggressive discounting policy if required due to potential 1Dx III sales slowdown.


----------



## Sporgon (May 17, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Within the Canon ecosystem we saw the same basic 18MP sensor in everything from the APS-C "flagship" 7D to the lowly Rebel T6/1300D.



I don't think the 18 mp sensor is a good example as the 7D was priced in the consumer range, albeit high end, but certainly not in the same league as the 1 series. Canon did appear to use the 1 series s 3 sensor in the 5DII which you could argue was also higher end consumer. I think maybe I've misunderstood where the R6 was was going to be pitched; I thought it was an RP replacement and maybe as BillB says, it isn't.


----------



## Sporgon (May 17, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> this is my take on this, if I may:
> 
> 1. R6 is not a competition to 1DxIII. not even remotely in the range of the target audience of a Canon 1 series camera.
> 2. R6 will outsell 1Dx III in ration to 100:1(a figurative number, not an estimation) - for all the obvious reasons. price, form factor, capacity of the target market.
> ...



I agree if the R6 not a budget model


----------



## Michael Clark (May 18, 2020)

Sporgon said:


> I don't think the 18 mp sensor is a good example as the 7D was priced in the consumer range, albeit high end, but certainly not in the same league as the 1 series. Canon did appear to use the 1 series s 3 sensor in the 5DII which you could argue was also higher end consumer. I think maybe I've misunderstood where the R6 was was going to be pitched; I thought it was an RP replacement and maybe as BillB says, it isn't.



The 7D intro'd at $1,699.

The Rebel T6/1300D intro'd at $549. 

That's a 3.25:1 price ratio for two APS-C cameras with the same sensor.

The 1D X Mark III intro'd at $6,499.

1/3.25 of the 1D X Mark III price is $2,000. We'll see if the R6 is at, above, or below that price point. I'm guessing slightly above it.


----------



## Dexter75 (May 18, 2020)

Lame. This thing won’t be out until 2021, if ever. Canon still hasn’t even acknowledged it’s existence. It’s vapor ware


----------



## BillB (May 18, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> Lame. This thing won’t be out until 2021, if ever. Canon still hasn’t even acknowledged it’s existence. It’s vapor ware


Well, canon rarely acknowledges upcoming cameras much in advance of release, the R5 and several 1D’s being exceptions. There was enough information floating around a couple of months ago to get the R6 name and several specs categorized as CR3 (i.e “fact”), and a camera identified as the R6 has been submitted for certification. You are entitled to your opinion, but it seems like more than vapor ware to me, and I think it will be announced in July.


----------



## FramerMCB (Jun 1, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> You were initially correct—mostly—there is a DIGIC 8 as well. However, it only supports DSLR functions—metering, PDAF. My guess is they didn't bother porting those functions to DIGIC X because they won't be needed much going forward
> 
> 
> 
> From the white paper: https://www.canonrumors.com/files/Canon_EOS_1DX_Mark_III_Still_White_Paper.pdf


 I completely missed that. But then again, I wasn't reading all the White Paper info. This explains a little more about the overall speed/responsiveness as well as the "unlimited" buffer.


----------

