# New APS-C Camera in February?



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 8, 2011)

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<p><strong>APS-C Before Full Frame?

</strong>Received word today, that the next planned DSLR announcement from Canon will be in February 2012. It’s a loose date and could happen at the end of January as well. The floods in Thailand are messing with partsÃ‚Â availability.</p>
<p>It will most likely be a camera using the current 18mp sensor, with some modifications. Expect DIGIC V as well.</p>
<p><strong>Lenses?

</strong>I’m told from the same person we’ll see a lens announcement before the next DSLR. No word on what.</p>
<p><strong>Next “G”?

</strong>Again, the same person is saying the next “G” series camera will be a departure from what we have now.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## Woody (Nov 8, 2011)

Coool. My planned purchases include the next Rebel (T4i?) + 5D2 + 35 f/1.4L lens.

PS: I hope Canon has improved their sensor quality. Will really like them to match up to the sensors in the Pentax K-5 and Nikon D5100. Don't really care if they resort to in-camera RAW NR like their competition.


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## gene_can_sing (Nov 8, 2011)

SWEET!!

I'm thinking since it's digic V, that means it will fix the moire / aliasing in the video. This is a long, long time coming for Canon video DSLR people.

This will get me by until the DSLR / video full frame hybrid comes out. Then the T4i will become a good B-Cam.

Oh yes, and please include 1080p 60fps like the latest Sony Alpha.


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## gmrza (Nov 8, 2011)

Canon Rumors said:


> It will most likely be a camera using the current 18mp sensor, with some modifications. Expect DIGIC V as well.


I am pretty certain that the first APS-C camera with a new sensor will be the 7DII (or whatever it is called).



Canon Rumors said:


> Again, the same person is saying the next â€œGâ€ series camera will be a departure from what we have now.


This is the interesting bit, and something I would like to hear more about. I do recall one comment from Canon saying that they would introduce a "small" product that would be "interesting" (I think that was the word) next year.
I hope that Canon move the G series towards something with a bigger sensor - to give better low light performance and shallow depth of field. That would be a strong motivation to replace my G11. A brighter lens would be nice as well - I do still like the f/2 that my G5 has at the wide end.


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## wickidwombat (Nov 8, 2011)

A revision to the 7D would be awesome I would snap one up for sure

dual Digic V maybe if they keep 18 MP it will hit 10fps? maybe not if the shutter cant keep up
hope they keep the same battery
improve the sharpness and high iso
18MP is fine for me
maybe some tweeks to the AF system


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 8, 2011)

dilbert said:


> Last February it was the T3i announced from "Lake Success, N.Y.". What are the odds we'll see a repeat of that announcement? Or is this rumor simply predicated on past Canon announcements?



Even if it is, there's been a new Rebel/xxxD in 1Q for the past several years, so another one seems likely. I agree that it will use the same sensor (a three-peat for that sensor in the xxxD line), but with Digic5, and possibly the 3.2" LCD in the 1D X - that will likely be sufficient differentiation for the marketing department to run with.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2011)

Hoe there there is micro adjustment for the AF. Canon shouild have make it as a standrd feature accross the entire DSLR line. With that, Canon can sell more fast lense.


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## psycho5 (Nov 8, 2011)

If Canon was smart they would outfit the 7Dii with a sensor with the same philosophy as the 1Dx... lower mp count with larger pixels! ;D


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## gmrza (Nov 8, 2011)

psycho5 said:


> If Canon was smart they would outfit the 7Dii with a sensor with the same philosophy as the 1Dx... lower mp count with larger pixels! ;D


Unfortunately, Sony has already set the bar, I think, in the APS-C space, with their recent 24MP offerings. Canon will have difficulty backing below 18MP, but hopefully won't go hunting higher resolutions.

Given than APS-C sensors use the "sweet spot" in the centre of the lens, they can get away with a bit more resolution, but they do become diffraction-limited sooner.

One benefit of 18MP is that it does give you a lot of lattitude for cropping.


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## pj1974 (Nov 8, 2011)

I'd like to see a 7D mk II with lower noise at all ISOs, same resolution (18 MP = fine for me), some AF tweaks maybe. 

Canon, even though I don't use video much, if you could allow it to have full time AF while recording that would be good (and I'd use video more). Maybe a swivel screen to help filming bur more-so, for live-view / macros at odd angles!

My 7D serves me very well... I really don't need more than 7 or 8 fps (I like the 3fps and 8fps options). What would be handy is more than 3 bracketed exposures (eg up to 7 or 9).

Paul


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## dstppy (Nov 8, 2011)

My vote:
A new 7D/60D . . . figure a 7D with articulating screen and Digic V . . . seriously, what else do you need? Oh yeah, and a metal internal body with plastic external so it's superior, yet people can complain  -- before smiting, at least post and admit that's why you're doing it


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## Meh (Nov 8, 2011)

psycho5 said:


> If Canon was smart they would outfit the 7Dii with a sensor with the same philosophy as the 1Dx... lower mp count with larger pixels! ;D



If Canon was smart? I just checked, they are. Market cap is $53B, annual revenue $47B, annual income about $8B, $11B in cash, and most important of all... this site has 13,840 members who just can't get enough of Canon cameras!  But seriously, I'm with gmrza, I think they'll stick to 18MP in the APS-C line and work on improving noise and DR just a touch.


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## EYEONE (Nov 8, 2011)

Well, it's the new Rebel time of the year I guess. Wouldn't be too far out of line for it to be a 70D either.

But I still think we're too early for a 7DII... Well, I dunno. By summer of next year the 7D will be 3 years old. But it will be a very difficult camera to improve upon. As the Rebels are at this point.


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## c.d.embrey (Nov 8, 2011)

gmrza said:


> Unfortunately, Sony has already set the bar, I think, in the APS-C space, with their recent 24MP offerings. Canon will have difficulty backing below 18MP, but hopefully won't go hunting higher resolutions.



The Sony 16Mp NEX 5n has a great sensor -- excellent color and low noise. I use mine strictly for video, 1080x1920 60P, 30P and 24P. If you like Auto Focus it does Face Recognition and Auto Follow Focus. If you like Manual Focusing, it has Focus Peaking just like a Broadcast video camera. If Sony can provide high-end features like this on a $600.00 camera, why can't Canon do it on their more expensive cameras???

Now I'm hoping that Canon's new APS-C will be competitive with the Nikon D400. If it isn't, I'll just keeping using my 40D.


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## polpaulin (Nov 8, 2011)

if they could do a G with a bigger sensor ! actually the G is a total crap camera
and a new 50 mm 1.2 !!!


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## kode (Nov 8, 2011)

Releasing an EOS 650D 25 years after the EOS 650? Quite believable, I say.


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## RichST (Nov 8, 2011)

A very believable rumor, Sony has been outinnovating them for a while now and if it's costing them sales they surely aren't going to take it lying down. Digic V with better video is almost certain (I hope they get rid of the moire and increase detail before they try and get any bright ideas about 1080/60p; given the 1Dx's specs I'd say that's probably reasonable to assume). It would be nice to see built-in HDR but Canon seems hell-bent on making you do it by hand (which is sooo five years ago).


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## dr croubie (Nov 8, 2011)

I'd be voting for a 650D, same 18MP sensor, maybe a digic5 to make upgrading worthwhile. I don't think there's anyone I know who's "upgraded" from a 550 to 600, but seeing as canon call the shots they can just discontinue the 550D, and then users upgrading from P&S or 1000D can choose the 600/650.

7D2 will almost definitely hve a new sensor, what it is i don't know. Either 18MP with a lot higher IQ than currently (larger pixels a la 1dx), or the same IQ-per-pixel as the current 7D with more of them (keeping pixel-size the same and fitting more in the same space). If it's 24mp or more current-7D-owners might upgrade, but either option would be a nice upgrade for 60D/xxxD-owners. Keep the rest of the features the same, there's nothing wrong with it.

I still think that there'll be another wildlifing body out to replace the 1D4, whether it's what the 1D5 should have been (18-21mp aps-h, same af, same body, 8-10fps), or it could be a high-mp aps-c (21-30, same af, same body, 8-10fps) for somewhere between 5D2 and 1D4 price.

But not yet, feb will be a 650D. (if there's a lens, please please please EFs 35/1.4)


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## hambergler (Nov 8, 2011)

RichST said:


> A very believable rumor, Sony has been outinnovating them for a while now and if it's costing them sales they surely aren't going to take it lying down. Digic V with better video is almost certain (I hope they get rid of the moire and increase detail before they try and get any bright ideas about 1080/60p; given the 1Dx's specs I'd say that's probably reasonable to assume). It would be nice to see built-in HDR but Canon seems hell-bent on making you do it by hand (which is sooo five years ago).



I agree on paper Sony may have the upper hand but in practice the A77 is way too noisy compared to the 7D, K-5 or D7000 which are relatively close with each other.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonyslta77/page14.asp

Just look at the RAW there is very visible noise even at 400 ISO


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## Woody (Nov 8, 2011)

We will know in 2012 how well Sony really performed in 2011. FWIW, folks predicted Canon would do poorly in terms of market shares during 2010... but the truth just went the other way. Nikon's V1/J1 (not affected by the Thai floods since these are made in China) are not faring well in Japan, quite a surprise since small stuff are quite popular in Japan. I predict Canon will once again rule the 2011 market shares chart when the final numbers are released next year.

Personally, I am only interested in how well the new Canon 18 MP APS-C sensor performs.


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## bycostello (Nov 8, 2011)

lots and lots coming from all the manufacturers at the mo... very exciting...


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## EYEONE (Nov 8, 2011)

dr croubie said:


> 7D2 will almost definitely hve a new sensor, what it is i don't know. Either 18MP with a lot higher IQ than currently (larger pixels a la 1dx), or the same IQ-per-pixel as the current 7D with more of them (keeping pixel-size the same and fitting more in the same space). If it's 24mp or more current-7D-owners might upgrade, but either option would be a nice upgrade for 60D/xxxD-owners. Keep the rest of the features the same, there's nothing wrong with it.



There are a lot of confusing things in that paragraph. How can the pixel size be kept the same and more of them be put on a APS-C? I'm sure that isn't exactly what you meant.

For me personally the more MP jump Canon makes with a 7DII the less likely I'd upgrade. I'd really like to see a MP drop in the replacement. But honestly, I'm not interested in a 7D II anyway so I'm probably a terrible sample.


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## caruser (Nov 8, 2011)

dilbert said:


> I'll wager that less than 1% of the people that own cameras with micro-focus adjustment have actually used it and fewer still people use it properly.



To complete the package, the camera should do the adjustment itself, as somebody mentioned here or in another forum, you can use one AF method to calibrate the other, it's just a bit of software that is missing.


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## Maui5150 (Nov 8, 2011)

Definitely muddies the water a bit. I would like to jump up from my T2i, and have been on the 7D or 5DmkII fence for a bit. While I love more MP, if the camera is the 7DMKII and it is still 18MP, then I think for me to jump, it would have to have better ISO, be faster (close to 10fps), and I would like them to step up and offer more in terms of their already solid focus. They give me Stellar IQ in a APS-C body that lets me shoot solid fashion work but also performs for sports, then it fits my need as an all around.


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## AprilForever (Nov 8, 2011)

psycho5 said:


> If Canon was smart they would outfit the 7Dii with a sensor with the same philosophy as the 1Dx... lower mp count with larger pixels! ;D



No, that would be suicide! 7D users LIKE having it as a crop sensor camera, and have built their lens line-up (several thousands of dollars of glass, usually) around that line-up.

As has been iterated many times, it would be a HUGE loss of focal length, and would frustrate me hugely!


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## NormanBates (Nov 8, 2011)

I don't think he means bigger sensor, just APS-C with 14 or 16 Mpix

also: the A77 doesn't fare any worse than a 7D in terms of noise per image (which is the relevant metric); but, being more modern, it could do better, like the NEX-5N for example
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/(appareil1)/734%7C0/(brand)/Sony/(appareil2)/737%7C0/(brand2)/Sony/(appareil3)/692%7C0/(brand3)/Canon

edit:
I don't use autofocus (all my lenses are vintage manual) but for anybody that does (and uses lenses faster than f/3.5) I'd never recommend a camera without microadjustment, it is a big, big flaw that the 60D didn't have this (whereas the 50D did)
but it seems to be a marketing decision in order to separate semipro from amateur cameras, so I wouldn't bet on a T4i with microadjustment


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## MK5GTI (Nov 8, 2011)

i just hope that Canon will bring Video continuous AF on the T4i, since the majority of the buyer are family picture/video oriented. (as in shooting video for children)

if not, I will wait for the A55 replacement, the A65/77 is too noisy


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## thejoyofsobe (Nov 8, 2011)

over the T2i, the T3i had wireless flash triggering, articulated LCD screen, creative filters, manual audio control and digital zoom while filming.

other than Digic V what's going to be the draw for consumers to pick the T4i over the T3i? Built-in GPS? D7000-style AF during video? Touchscreen?


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## hmmm (Nov 8, 2011)

*G-Next: must be larger sensor*

I can pay $600 for a Sony NEX-5 with APS-C sensor including a kit lens. (599.99 with rebate and free shipping -- B&H 11/08/11).

$600 is the usual price point for the G-series camera, roughly. For $600, do I want a 1/1.7 camera when I can get a slightly larger but still compact full aps-c camera for the same price? Tough sell.

To compete effectively, I think the G-series has got to be larger sensor, hopefully full APS-C, even if it is still not an interchangeable lens camera. I wouldn't be surprised to see the G-"Next" as non-interchangeable APS-C this spring, (hopefully with a nice reasonably fast 24-1nn IS lens) and the interchangeable lens non-mirror system at the end of the summer. Hopefully all APS-C.

Another poster in this thread speculated that Canon is stupid. ...I don't think Canon is stupid. The question is, does Canon think we are stupid? I don't think so. That Canon skipped producing a G13 with a 1/1.7 sensor suggests that Canon respects the intelligence of its customers.

Now another major camera company producing a small-sensor interchangeable lens non-mirror camera with a tiny sensor and expecting us to buy it because of cute ads with Ashton Kutchner.... not so much.


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## willhuff.net (Nov 8, 2011)

18mp? Canon has really limited themselves with the 1DX. Can they get away with putting more mp in a crop body than they have in their flagship? Sony has a cropped 24mp camera, so they can't compete with it without making the 1DX look as though it's lacking something. 
If they aren't going to go over 18mp, then what does that mean for the 7D and 60D that are already at 18mp? They would have to have some additions that I can't even imagine to justify upgrading when the mp count stays the same.


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## Meh (Nov 8, 2011)

*Re: G-Next: must be larger sensor*



hmmm said:


> I can pay $600 for a Sony NEX-5 with APS-C sensor including a kit lens. (599.99 with rebate and free shipping -- B&H 11/08/11).
> 
> $600 is the usual price point for the G-series camera, roughly. For $600, do I want a 1/1.7 camera when I can get a slightly larger but still compact full aps-c camera for the same price? Tough sell.
> 
> ...



Good call... the next G with a larger sensor would be sweet (even if not all the way up to APS-C) would really re-position it in the market and make the larger size over the S95/100 more worthwhile.

Ashton Kutcher is cool, funny, handsome, charismatic... but the whole Nikon thing... that's just a big negative!


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## JR (Nov 8, 2011)

willhuff.net said:


> 18mp? Canon has really limited themselves with the 1DX. Can they get away with putting more mp in a crop body than they have in their flagship? Sony has a cropped 24mp camera, so they can't compete with it without making the 1DX look as though it's lacking something.
> If they aren't going to go over 18mp, then what does that mean for the 7D and 60D that are already at 18mp? They would have to have some additions that I can't even imagine to justify upgrading when the mp count stays the same.



While the 1DX if the flagship for now, we still dont know the full roadmap of Canon DSLR to come. I could see the 1DX being the king of darkness and Canon having a 5D III with a high MP count (28-30MP for example) which would alow them to also have more MP if they wanted to on a crop body. Maybe they will even have two types of sensors for crop body, a high MP for resolution and a low MP for low light.

It is hard to conclude at this time without the full product roadmap. The next 3-4 months will be very interesting. Remember Canon cannot ignore competitive product from Nikon either. So 1DX alone does not tell the whole future story of Canon DSLR - my two cents.


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## Mendolera (Nov 8, 2011)

thejoyofsobe said:


> over the T2i, the T3i had wireless flash triggering, articulated LCD screen, creative filters, manual audio control and digital zoom while filming.
> 
> other than Digic V what's going to be the draw for consumers to pick the T4i over the T3i? Built-in GPS? D7000-style AF during video? Touchscreen?



Agreed. I think the wireless flash triggering available in the newer XXD/XXXD line is sometimes completely over looked IMO. Its such a huge benefit to use the body as a master when you have a limited number of flashes. 

I dont really need video so I am holding on to my 450D a little longer until a new 5D or maybe a rumored 6D comes out but I really hope they make that standard in all lines.


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## Meh (Nov 8, 2011)

dr croubie said:


> 7D2 will almost definitely hve a new sensor, what it is i don't know. Either 18MP with a lot higher IQ than currently (larger pixels a la 1dx), or the same IQ-per-pixel as the current 7D with more of them (keeping pixel-size the same and fitting more in the same space). If it's 24mp or more current-7D-owners might upgrade, but either option would be a nice upgrade for 60D/xxxD-owners. Keep the rest of the features the same, there's nothing wrong with it.



If you're using "pixel" to mean "photosite" then that should be possible by now. To differentiate the two terms, pixel usually means the entire area on the sensor occupied for each pixel of resolution so that can not be made larger when keeping the same 18MP resolution. The photosite which is a portion, usually less than 50%, of the area occupied for each pixel can certainly be made larger if tech as advanced and the electronics that sit beside each photosite can now be made smaller.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 8, 2011)

dilbert said:


> Last February it was the T3i announced from "Lake Success, N.Y.". What are the odds we'll see a repeat of that announcement? Or is this rumor simply predicated on past Canon announcements?



The T3i model is unique to Canon North America which is headquartered in New York. All announcements for US unique model numbers will come out of the USA or Canada. At the same time, a 550D would have been announced in Europe, but would never be announced by Canon USA.

Worldwide models like 5D MK II may be announced anywhere in the world.


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## Meh (Nov 8, 2011)

hjulenissen said:


> To those craving for a 7D with fewer/larger sensels:
> Do you have any sources that supports your assertion that a "7Dmk2" at 14MP could have better total IQ than a "7Dmk2" at 22MP?
> 
> My predictions for 7Dmk2:
> ...



There are no sources to support any assertion about a 7D2 because a 7D2 doesn't exist.

In general, all other things being equal, larger photosites are advantageous as they will have a larger SNR and larger DR (technical measure of DR... full-well/noise floor... I don't want to start the usual debate again). Canon would appear to have admitted this now with the 1DX and Nikon certainly has been on that boat for years.

Improved DR and lower noise is almost a given for all next gen sensors a la the Sony sensors and the claims for the 1DX sensor would indicate Canon has made tech advances as well.

I hope you're wrong about ditching CF in a 7D2 but an easy thing to deal with. SD is catching up in speed these days and if they add dual SD rather than single CF that would be a positive.


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## AprilForever (Nov 8, 2011)

Those of you interested in a 7D with lower MP, why not just shoot your 7D on M instead of L? Moreover, I woulld be curious to know if the OP has a 7D... 

Mine is an incredible camera, capable of amazing things, and the 7D MK II will I am sure have even more glorious megapixels and will retain the APS-C format! (make sure you read this, Canon engineers!)


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## Meh (Nov 8, 2011)

AprilForever said:


> Those of you interested in a 7D with lower MP, why not just shoot your 7D on M instead of L?



Not the same thing.


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## EYEONE (Nov 8, 2011)

AprilForever said:


> Those of you interested in a 7D with lower MP, why not just shoot your 7D on M instead of L? Moreover, I woulld be curious to know if the OP has a 7D...



Not the same thing at all. That would only reduce the file size and not increase any ISO performance or DR. I don't really care about file sizes as HDDs and only backup is dirty cheap. But what I do want is better ISO performance, now if you can do that AND increase the MPs then fine. I'd also like the diffraction limit to be higher.


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## Meh (Nov 8, 2011)

hjulenissen said:


> Some people state that they hope that Canon will stop increases in the number of sensels, or even reverse it. I want to know if their claims have a good, sound reasoning behind it, or if it is folklore....



Yes there is good sound reasoning based in physics and mathematics. The more signal you have in a given measurement the higher will be the SNR.

Yes I am aware the topic of larger pixels is highly debated hence my attempt at making a precise statement about the technical measurements rather than "image quality". Yes, under some ideal conditions a higher resolution measurement of a signal and some clever mathematics can result in a signal that is equal and sometimes superior if resolution was a limiting factor. However, those conditions are not present in digital images where there is low signal levels such as shadow areas or in any low-light shooting. NR software can only improve images so much.

Sweetspot... how did he define that? And what did he mean by highest offered resolution. The spatial resolution of a typical P&S scaled up to FF is something like 200MP yet that is not offered, why? The bottom line is that there are trade-offs in optical systems and image sensors.

Fair enough... marketing cannot be trusted on its face. But to say they could save costs by using an archaic process I think is a stretch and marketing itself is a huge part of the reason for offering increasing megapixels... it sells more cameras and perhaps with the current limit of technology they already went a little past the sweetspot at say 24MP APS-C.

Can you further explain your comment about "analog amplification ISO".


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## traveller (Nov 8, 2011)

Isn't one of the trade offs with CMOS based sensors the fact they require a higher proportion of their surface area to be dedicated to control and readout circuitry than with CCDs? With an ideal sensor (one with which each 'sensel' can gather light from 100% of its area) four smaller 'sensels' would gather exactly the same amount of light as one larger one. At a given level of technology, can we assume that the circuitry required by a CMOS chip, whether it is (for example) 12MP or 24MP is roughly the same? If one accepts this and Meh's value of only 50% of each 'sensel' dedicated to gathering light, then four smaller 'sensels' will not be gathering the same amount of light as one larger 'sensel' because of the space wasted by the associated circuitry. 

DISCLAIMER: I present this only as a though experiment, I have no idea about the exact values involved as I have no background in the imaging electronics industry. If someone with greater technical knowledge can provide with correct values, or refute the assumptions made then I would welcome the enlightenment.


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## dr croubie (Nov 8, 2011)

Hmmm, looks like the debate's started again...

But yeah, what I was getting at was the options for the 7D2, regardless of the physics/maths, or what's possible:
- Lower MP, but higher low-noise and IQ. Look at the difference between the 50D and 7D (kodak patches about 1/5 down) at ISO 3200 and higher. That was the difference just from gapless microlenses. Now improve that much again (about a stop) and you're at 5Dmk2 noise-levels. Maybe they need to drop to 15MP to do it, to get larger photosites. Keep all the features of the current 7D. That body would be priced about the same as the current 7D. As a current 7D-owner, that's not enough of an upgrade to me.

- Keep 18MP, but with larger photosites. Maybe you get half a stop extra usable ISO (obviously less than if the MP were dropped). Again, with the same features as currently, it's not going to make me upgrade.

- Keep the same size photosites as the current 7D (or near enough so the same ISO looks exactly the same between the new/old), but pack them closer together, into a 24-30MP body. Keep the same featues as current 7D, and the price might go up to halfway between 7D/5D2 prices. I'd consider this upgrade.

- Or a mixture of the last two. Make photosites larger, better (regardless how much) iso-performance, and pack them closer together to 21-24MP. That's probably the most worthy-upgrade from a current 7D, and the most likely to get me interested (although I can't speak for other 7D owners).

- Or the boring upgrade, more MP, say 25-30, but worse iso-performance than the current 7D. Given what happened from 1Ds3 to 1DX, I don't think this is likely. But if it happened, would you buy one? I'm still undecided on that one.


At the moment, the current 7D is a nice upgrade from every other aps-c body (better sensor than 50D, better features than 60/550/600D), unless you like the flip-screen. I don't, maybe you do (but I do know that a flip-screen is harder to waterproof, and more easily breakable). As for other features, I use AFMA and love it. Since I got my speedlite, i've used more than half the shots with the wireless trigger (even though I got a 10m-long cord too, wireless is easier). The FPS is why i got it in the first place. Waterproofing has come in handy, and will in the future moreso.

I don't actually know what else they could add to or change from the current 7D to make it a worthwhile upgrade for current 7D-users, besides the sensor. 45-pt AF would be nice, but i won't pay more than 5% extra for it. It's waterproof "enough". I don't like gripped bodies, my arm gets tired enough (and for those who do like them, buy a BG). The moved DOF-buttons on the 1DX look very nice, but I see that happening to every body in future, it's not exactly a "feature" worth extra money. Ethernet doesn't exactly cream my pants, I might use it if it came on my next body, if not I won't miss it. GPS and WiFi are add-on features for extra money on the 1DX, that's a pretty clear sign that they will *not* be built into future lower bodies (although they may add the plugs for it).
So for the rest of you who actually own a 7D now, what would actually make you buy a newer model, if the sensor is the same? (take into account you'd lose about 15% purchase-price selling old-body and buying new one). And if the sensor is a new one (more than likely), what would you prefer from my options above?


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## akiskev (Nov 8, 2011)

dr croubie said:


> And if the sensor is a new one (more than likely), what would you prefer from my options above?



I'd prefer better dynamic range (even slightly better) and better signal to noise ratio at all isos!


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## Meh (Nov 9, 2011)

@hjulenissen

See now there you go... I made a simple statement of fact that SNR goes up with signal level and that is too simplistic and you want to get into "image quality" which I specifically wanted to avoid because here we go. I call a NR reduction algorithm "clever mathematics" but you want to say it's not "clever mathematics"... whether it's clever or not clever is a matter of opinion I guess but I think it's at least a little bit clever. Can you give me that one?

You're obviously knowledgeable about this topic. Me too. Should we compare "credentials"?  Honestly, I don't want to offend you or anyone else. Someone was offended because I got smited... YES! Probably for starting this so I may deserve it :-[

Many of your points are technically sound. Sure, counting photons in 4 bins and adding vs. counting in 1 bin is the same total number of photons. But there will be less signal (fill factor <1) and more shot noise and read noise and therefore lower SNR and DR and you've agreed the accuracy of counting those photons is not as accurate if only as a technical matter. If the SNR is high enough across the entire image then the whole argument is moot but if not you can go ahead and apply a NR algorithm to try and improve the image quality.

I do agree that the more data you have to work with the better NR algorithms will work. The question would be where is the sweetspot above which the additional noise due to smaller pixels outpaces the improved application of the NR algorithm.

And why is the DR in the Nikon D7000 16MP sensor (Sony) so high? If you look up the full-well capacity on sensorgen.info (ooops, that could be another debate) you will see it's very high... probably because they improved the fill factor (i.e. a larger photosite in each pixel, the size of the photosite matters). They also got the noise down in that sensor. Result = large DR of 14. Now look at the Sony A77 (24MP) presumably using at least the same tech as the D7000 sensor and you'll see the full-well is much lower and therefore the DR is only 12.2 so the evidence suggests again that photosite size matters at least to the technical characteristics (again I'm trying to leave "image quality" alone).

Anyway, I apologize to everyone, their families, their friends, and the whole world for starting this.

-1 to myself


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## unfocused (Nov 9, 2011)

> When the purchasing manager for a news corporation pops their head up and says the 1DX is useless because it only has 18MP and they'll use the 5D3 with 50MP for all of their journalists, then I'll listen. But I doubt that's going to happen.



I agree with your points but not sure your example is the best. Not to quibble too much, but news organizations are all about the reproduction and whether it is in a magazine, a newspaper or on a website, they are going to be throwing away megapixels and resolution even with an 18mp sensor. 

But, despite my quibbling, I certainly agree with your major points. The resolution of the 1DX will likely have little or no bearing on future generations of the 5D, 7D or other DSLRs. In fact, I think Canon has thrown us such a curve with both the 1DX and its new Cinema line that it's pretty much impossible to guess what direction they will go next.

It's clear to me that while many say Canon WILL do this or that, or that they MUST offer something because of what a competitor offers, Canon is responding with a big: "Says Who?"

They are demonstrating the agility and innovative thinking that has taken them to the top of their industry. I'm just hoping the ride will be as exciting as it appears.


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## psycho5 (Nov 9, 2011)

dilbert said:


> The 1DX was designed and built for professional photographers and they have very specific needs that don't necessarily have anything to do with hobbyists, amateurs, advanced amateurs or just the general public.



In a perfect world Canon would market the next 7D for pros and leave the 70D and below to the hobbyists and amateurs. If they did (again in a perfect world) we would see a cropped version of the 1Dx sensor in the next 7D. This is my wish and it would be awesome! I remember when the 7D came out people were raving how it was a mini-1D, why not keep the tradition alive?


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## Meh (Nov 9, 2011)

psycho5 said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > The 1DX was designed and built for professional photographers and they have very specific needs that don't necessarily have anything to do with hobbyists, amateurs, advanced amateurs or just the general public.
> ...



Not sure about the "marketing to pros" part but I think you will get your wish. It wouldn't take much improvement for a 7D2 to be a mini-1DX.


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## EYEONE (Nov 9, 2011)

dr croubie said:


> That was the difference just from gapless microlenses.



The 50D had gapless microlenses too.


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## Meh (Nov 9, 2011)

dr croubie said:


> So for the rest of you who actually own a 7D now, what would actually make you buy a newer model, if the sensor is the same? (take into account you'd lose about 15% purchase-price selling old-body and buying new one). And if the sensor is a new one (more than likely), what would you prefer from my options above?



Assuming I could sell my 7D and buy a 7D2 for a net cost of only 15% (about C$225), I would upgrade just for the chance to take that new sweetness out of the box! ;D For me, the compelling option from your list would be same 18MP with any improvement in image quality whether that's a little better ISO performance, DR, whatever.


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## unfocused (Nov 9, 2011)

Meh said:


> dr croubie said:
> 
> 
> > So for the rest of you who actually own a 7D now, what would actually make you buy a newer model, if the sensor is the same? (take into account you'd lose about 15% purchase-price selling old-body and buying new one). And if the sensor is a new one (more than likely), what would you prefer from my options above?
> ...



That pretty much sums it up for me as well. 

I don't have a problem with more megapixels, but it wouldn't make it so that I have to have a new model. 

I like the infrared trigger, but hate that the onboard flash overheats and shuts down in the middle of shooting, making the trigger useless. I'd like that fixed.

I would like to see an improved autofocus system. People say the 7D is far more sophisticated than the 5D, but frankly it's not always intuitive or simple to use. Just because most focus issues are the result of "user error" doesn't mean they shouldn't try to engineer improvements that will reduce those errors.

Reduced noise, higher ISO and expanded dynamic range are the main criteria.

Actually, this all goes back to something I've said before: Will Canon go for an incremental upgrade and focus on attracting new buyers upgrading from Rebels or will they go for major improvements to entice existing 7D owners to buy the new model? 

I really think (and hope) it will be the latter. I think they learned with the 50D that incremental upgrades are risky and I suspect they have figured out that one customer in the hand (existing 7D owners) is better than two customers in the bush (Rebel owners who might or might not upgrade). A major upgrade will attract both markets, but minor changes will have most 7D owners waiting for the Mark III.


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## jouster (Nov 9, 2011)

psycho5 said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > The 1DX was designed and built for professional photographers and they have very specific needs that don't necessarily have anything to do with hobbyists, amateurs, advanced amateurs or just the general public.
> ...



Why would that represent a perfect world? Why would a cropped version of the 1DX sensor necessitate marketing only to pros?


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2011)

jouster said:


> psycho5 said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



If Canon make a cropped version (APS-C) of the 1DX sensor, it will only have 6.84 MP. do you think either the 'pro" or Amateur will buy it???
I would like to see canon apply the technology of 1DX sensor on the existing 18MP APS_C and also give us the "low Light" technique ( addition the explosure from 4 adjscent pixels )from the S95 and ends up with a 4.5MP picture. Then we will have the best of both world.


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## Meh (Nov 9, 2011)

Rocky said:


> jouster said:
> 
> 
> > psycho5 said:
> ...



 I took psycho5's comment to mean the latter... apply the latest and greatest sensor tech for a new ~18MP APS-C sensor and I think that could be what we'll see. Totally agree that an APS-C crop of the 1DX sensor with 6.9MP is a non-starter.


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## wickidwombat (Dec 8, 2011)

Meh said:


> Rocky said:
> 
> 
> > jouster said:
> ...



what if it functioned like the fuji EXR tech where you can choose low MP and higher DR and cleaner ISO or more MP and use lower iso? then you get your cake and eat it too. I think something like this in a new 7D they would struggle to keep up with demand, from amature and pro's alike.


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