# Micro Focus Adjustment on 60D



## riccardoz (Aug 4, 2011)

Hi all,

after googling a bit various forums it turns out that decision not to implement Micro Focus Adjustment on the 60D (while it was there on 50D) is a pure marketing decision to differentiate the model from the 7D.
This is a questionable marketing decision which goes in the direction of punishing the Canon customers that cannot afford the extra $$$ for the 7D. That feature was very useful and I find utterly annoying is not implemented in the new X0D body. 
Moreover, from other forums, some Canon folks was telling this is a pure FW implementation so let's fill Canon mailbox with requests to make them realize they have to implement it (other comparable Nikons have that). Tha Canon contact page in US is this one: 
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/form_display/sup_by_email
I just dropped a message and so will do in my country Canon page (Italy). 
I think if we all flood them with requests they will have to take the head out of the sand.
Come on guys!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 4, 2011)

riccardoz said:


> I think if we all flood them with requests they will have to take the head out of the sand.
> Come on guys!



The list of requests/wishes for features to be added in firmware is long and varied. The instances of Canon atually adding meaningful features to cameras via a firmware update are few and far between. Not trying to rain on the parade, but that's reality. 

It was no accident that this feature was left out of the 60D. Perhaps sufficient outcry will incude them to bring it back to the line with a possible 70D, but more likely they'll leave it as a feature found only in the single-digit bodies (with the exception of the 50D).


----------



## riccardoz (Aug 4, 2011)

It was definitely not left out by accident: clear strategy to reposition the segment. 
The point is, Nikon has the feature in the same segment, and if this feature is missing enough to all Canonists, they might be forced to pull it back by the fact the competitors have it. 
If there is some noise and Canon marketeers will start to see that as a "pro" for Nikon in the comparison tables, then they will change their mind. And they might not want to wait for the 70D.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 4, 2011)

riccardoz said:


> Hi all,
> 
> after googling a bit various forums it turns out that decision not to implement Micro Focus Adjustment on the 60D (while it was there on 50D) is a pure marketing decision to differentiate the model from the 7D.
> This is a questionable marketing decision which goes in the direction of punishing the Canon customers that cannot afford the extra $$$ for the 7D. That feature was very useful and I find utterly annoying is not implemented in the new X0D body.
> ...



Its not going to happen. Canon purposely reduced the feature set and the price to undercut the Nikon D7000.

Buyers are very price sensitive and the 60D's are selling very well. When buyers go to a big box store like Best Buy and see the prices, they feel that a 60D is a no brainer for its capabilities and low cost. (and, its got 2mp more!  )

The Micro adjust is a issue primarily for those who buy expensive wide aperture l lenses for the low cost body and find they are focusing well but not perfectly.

IMHO, a balance needs to be struck between the body you use and the lenses you use. If you are buying thousands of dollars worth of wide aperture lenses, spend a few hundred more on a 7D.

I would not buy a 60D because I know my lenses function best with a little MA applied.


----------



## UncleFester (Aug 4, 2011)

They were probably hoping that most 60D buyers wouldn't use it. But that does not seem like the case although the plastic body may be another indicator of where the x0D line is heading.


----------



## PXL_Pusher (Aug 5, 2011)

I must say, from a Canon marketing p.o.v. - that is sound logic. 

It was a favorite feature of mine on my old 50D body, and one of the several reasons 50D's are still selling well. Call me captain obvious, but unless somebody is going be using hdvideo over 50% of the time on their DSLR - I would highly recommend getting a great deal on a 50D body and use the extra cash for some nice glass. IMO - in terms of features for photography (not video), you get a faster FPS burst (6.3 vs. 5.3), Lens microfocus adjust... and a nice magnesium alloy body to help balance the weight of your shiny new L lens. I can also personally vouch for the nice IQ achievable with that body, obviously highly depending on what lens you use. 

Sorry for the ramble... that's just my 2Cents.


----------



## Bruce Photography (Aug 5, 2011)

While some time ago I left a post with my reasons for Micro adjust, I assumed at that time that this was a marketing decision by Canon to give more weight to the 7D and any future 7D models. Since I have solid reasons for wanting the Micro Adjust feature, I simply won't buy a 60D because I already have a 7D. It seems the 60D does have better noise handling and I really would like the tiltable lcd for doing close to the ground Macro shots, I will have to wait until Canon produces a higher level camera with a tiltable lcd that does have micro focus adjust before I spend any more money on Canon gear. I have over 35 Canon lenses and I can't really switch to Nikon. However if they are unable to release and produce products in a timely maner I will want to consider other options. Does any know how well the camera adapters that convert Canon lenses to Nikon bodies work? What are their shortcomings? What other downsides are there?


----------



## skitron (Aug 5, 2011)

Sad part is I bet its still in the 60d but its hidden. I just don't see them not having it for when people send their new body/lens in for warranty because its off a few clicks. I'm guessing they have a hidden service menu like most other electronic gizmos with menus have. I'm sure it would make the warranty program cheaper for them.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 5, 2011)

skitron said:


> Sad part is I bet its still in the 60d but its hidden. I just don't see them not having it for when people send their new body/lens in for warranty because its off a few clicks. I'm guessing they have a hidden service menu like most other electronic gizmos with menus have. I'm sure it would make the warranty program cheaper for them.



When you send a lens to and body to Canon, they adjust both to factory specs. If they applied MA in the camera to make it match the lens, it wouldn't AF accurately if you bought a new lens. Each is adjusted to spec.

MA is certainly only firmware, but if its in the 60D firmware, no one has yet found a way to unlock it.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 5, 2011)

Bruce Photography said:


> I really would like the tiltable lcd for doing close to the ground Macro shots, I will have to wait until Canon produces a higher level camera with a tiltable lcd that does have micro focus adjust before I spend any more money on Canon gear.



Most of the rumors here suggest we won't see an articulating LCD in the higher-end bodies, due to issues with physical robustness and weather-sealing. So, you might have a long wait - but maybe it will be used on a 7DII, or maybe the 70D will have AFMA. Big maybes.




Bruce Photography said:


> Does any know how well the camera adapters that convert Canon lenses to Nikon bodies work? What are their shortcomings? What other downsides are there?



They don't work, and I'd say the biggest downside is that no adapter to mount Canon lenses on Nikon bodies exists, at least as far as I'm aware. You can use Nikon lenses on a Canon body, but not the reverse. Canon EF has a shorter flange focal distance (lens mount to focal plane) than Nikon F, so Nikon can be used on Canon (as can other lenses with longer flange focal distances, e.g. M42, Pentax K, Leica R, etc.). If there is an adapter out there for Nikon lenses to mount on Canon bodies, without additional optics it would mean loss of infinity focus (like an extension tube), and with optics (such as the adapters to mount old Canon FD lenses on EOS bodies) you'd take a substantial hit on IQ for the system.


----------



## skitron (Aug 5, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> If they applied MA in the camera to make it match the lens, it wouldn't AF accurately if you bought a new lens.



That is not known, another lens may be fine, it may be off the same as the first lens, it may be off the opposite of the first lens. Taking care of all of these anomalies is the entire point of micro adjust, no? So why wouldn't they utilize it in their warranty program since it is less time consuming to 'fix' things this way? Not saying it's true because I have no evidence, just saying it is logical therefore entirely possible.

Of course you could argue if they were going to do it via a hidden service menu to save time and expense, it takes even less time and expense to simply push it to the user and let him adjust his own lens, to which I would agree 100%.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 5, 2011)

skitron said:


> So why wouldn't they utilize it in their warranty program since it is less time consuming to 'fix' things this way? Not saying it's true because I have no evidence, just saying it is logical therefore entirely possible.



They wouldn't utilize it because then the user could easily 'unfix' the issue by turning off AFMA or by resetting the settings on the camera (which would not erase the adjustment, but would set the C.Fn back to the default 'no adjustment' setting). 

People who've sent cameras and/or lenses in for adjustment have reported service reports stating, "_Electrical adjustments were carried out on the AF assembly..._," and for lenses, "_The auto focus did not operate properly. Electrical adjustments were carried out on the circuit board..._" That's not AFMA.


----------



## skitron (Aug 5, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> skitron said:
> 
> 
> > So why wouldn't they utilize it in their warranty program since it is less time consuming to 'fix' things this way? Not saying it's true because I have no evidence, just saying it is logical therefore entirely possible.
> ...



That assumes any service menu functioned identically to the user menu...which if such a thing existed I would assume it would not. It's easy enough to code to only flash the addresses you want upon reset and leave others alone so it has no technical barrier. And it is only logical to do this vs disassembly of lens and body simply for a lack of access to afma.

As for the service reports, I wouldn't be surprised if that language is used even on stuff they check out and is fine.  Again, no proof of this with Canon, just speculation based on how I've seen other places work where I do have proof.

I suppose if we had a single 60d and two copies of whatever lens with one off -8 afma units and the other off +8 and sent everything in we would have all the info we needed to definitively confirm or dismiss my speculations upon return of same.


----------



## dstppy (Aug 5, 2011)

<devilsadvocate>
Could it just be because they were repositioning the 60D to appeal to a less camera-savy audience and people are more likely to fark up their camera (settings) if they don't know what they're doing vs. leaving it as-is?

I don't think it's an actual conspiracy.
</devilsadvocate>


----------



## EYEONE (Aug 5, 2011)

dstppy said:


> <devilsadvocate>
> Could it just be because they were repositioning the 60D to appeal to a less camera-savy audience and people are more likely to fark up their camera (settings) if they don't know what they're doing vs. leaving it as-is?
> 
> I don't think it's an actual conspiracy.
> </devilsadvocate>



I think you are probably right actually. It may have been a questionable call overall but their intention was to try and slot the 60D between two cameras (7D and the T2i) that were already pretty close together.

I think a better choice would have been to leave out wireless flash control, but I suppose they were trying to compete with Nikon by leaving it in.

I guess I see the validity of people's complaints about the 60D not having MFA. But at the same time you can't really make an arguement that the 60D should have MFA just because the 50D had it. Because the 60D is not the 50D. It's a different camera.

But, I dunno, I could be a terrible judge of this feature. I have the 7D and both my lenses focus just fine on it and I haven't needed MFA yet.


----------



## dr croubie (Aug 5, 2011)

Bruce Photography said:


> Does any know how well the camera adapters that convert Canon lenses to Nikon bodies work? What are their shortcomings? What other downsides are there?



well, like neuro said, canon lens on a nikon body will either lose infinity focus with no glass, or have glass in and lose IQ.
But if you're going to be using it *exclusively* for macro, thats different because you don't care about infinity. Get a set of bellows with interchangeable mounts, put a nikon F on the camera side, and EF on the lens side. No AF, no IS, but not a big deal for tripod-mounted-bellows Macro.
But then, why would you want to switch to nikon just for macro?


----------



## Gothmoth (Aug 6, 2011)

i can only say i think 80% of my canon xxxxD, xxxD or xxD customers would never touch microadjustment.

and there are two main reasons:

1) often they are not so tech savy 
2) they have only zoom lenses

and it makes sense for canon to force the 20% who want more to the more expensive cameras.


----------



## CalmSoul (Aug 6, 2011)

I am a 60D user and I do really wish to see MFA on the 60D body... The main reason I bought 60D over 7D was for the movie recording and the swivel LCD. Well just noticed that the MFA could really help with third party lenses so I hope that canon will implement it...


----------



## Rocky (Aug 6, 2011)

It is a shame that canon do not put MFA in the 60D. It is a no cost extra for Canon. We, the comsumer will benefit a lot when we need it. Canon should not expect the 60D user to use slow lenses and not being critical all the time. There is one arguement that I have read over and over again " Canon wants to distinguish 60D from 7D by not having MFA in 60D" This is a lame reason. There are a lot of feature that 7D has but not on 60D. There is enough distinction between them without taking account of MFA. The only real reason is Canon is forcing people to buy 7D for the MFA. And we all know that 7D has a much higher profit margin than the 60D.


----------



## WarStreet (Aug 6, 2011)

Gothmoth said:


> i can only say i think 80% of my canon xxxxD, xxxD or xxD customers would never touch microadjustment.
> 
> and there are two main reasons:
> 
> ...



Interesting. It makes sense that those who will care about MFA, are technical enough to appreciate more the advantages of the 7D, and they may get this camera instead. Strategically, the re-position of the xxD series is brilliant for Canon. By reducing the spec-price of the xxD, new users will now start to consider either a rebel or a 60D due to the small price difference. The diversification created by the addition of the 7D and re-position of the 60D seems that it can increase the average price spent from users, and even increase extra buyers too due to a better choice. 

It is obvious that we as users would like to have more for less, who wouldn't ? Unfortunately real life market it is not like that. For the same reasons that has been brought up to add MFA on the 60D, we can also apply them to the rebel too. Canon has to draw a line somewhere.


----------



## mackguyver (Aug 6, 2011)

This might surprise some of you, but I actually chose the 60D over the 7D primarily because it allows interchangeable focus screens and I wanted the precision matte screen. I have the 24L, 50L, 135L and wanted more accurate focus confirmation and DOF preview (not just manual focus) and can't get that with the 7D. It's also nice on the 2.8L zooms, of course.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 6, 2011)

mackguyver said:


> This might surprise some of you, but I actually chose the 60D over the 7D primarily because it allows interchangeable focus screens and I wanted the precision matte screen. I have the 24L, 50L, 135L and wanted more accurate focus confirmation and DOF preview (not just manual focus) and can't get that with the 7D. It's also nice on the 2.8L zooms, of course.



If you are interchanging focus screens, you might want MA. Some focus screens require shimming to get the viewfinder focus accurate when you are using manual focus. doesn't matter to AF, just manual focus.

hopefully, you won't run into that, but some who actually check do have issues.

The focus screen of the 7D is replacable, its just more work. You certainly would not want to change them back and forth, and its for those who have a bit of a mechanical aptitude, since it requires a screwdriver and tweeker. You can buy them here: http://www.katzeyeoptics.com/item--Canon-7D-Focusing-Screen--prod_7D.html

Instructions:

http://www.katzeyeoptics.com/files/install_12.pdf


----------

