# The reshaping of the Cinema EOS line will continue into 2021, there is a Cinema EOS C90 in the pipeline [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 19, 2020)

> With the announcement of the Canon Cinema EOS C70, we can see Canon has some new plans for the Cinema EOS line in pricing as well as form factor.
> The next Cinema EOS camera to be announced will likely be the Canon Cinema EOS C50, and this camera will be a small “box” style camera.
> I have now heard from multiple places that Canon has a Cinema EOS C90 in the pipeline for 2021. What this camera is or will bring is unknown at this point. I’m not even sure if it’ll be an RF mount camera.
> So it looks like this will be the Cinema EOS lineup by the middle of next year:
> ...



Continue reading...


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## marathonman (Oct 19, 2020)

C70 is *******.


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## JoeDavid (Oct 19, 2020)

They should put the guts of an R5 in the form factor of the C70.


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## mb66energy (Oct 19, 2020)

While C50 might be the most interesting body for me, if it has good 4k with DPAF + some direkt left-right channel audio control (real knobs!) and some ND filter range (6 or better 8 stops) it might be a good alternative to the R6 for video - for photography I am well served by M50 and RP at the moment which deliver good enough video but are sometimes a little bit fiddly in terms of ergonomics.


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## Stanly (Oct 19, 2020)

"Canon is actively working on making RF mounts for some of the older Cinema EOS cameras" – I'm guessing that those might only be RF versions of mentioned older cameras, but NOT an RF mount option for existing C300 & C500 etc.

I'm saying this because Canon made a big deal about slimming down the ND mechanism for C70 for it to be able to work within shorter flange distance of RF. I believe this mechanism is "fatter" on EF cameras and can't fit inside the RF mount.


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## BroderLund (Oct 19, 2020)

C500 sensor in the C90?


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## landon (Oct 19, 2020)

Stanly said:


> "Canon is actively working on making RF mounts for some of the older Cinema EOS cameras" – I'm guessing that those might only be RF versions of mentioned older cameras, but NOT an RF mount option for existing C300 & C500 etc.
> 
> I'm saying this because Canon made a big deal about slimming down the ND mechanism for C70 for it to be able to work within shorter flange distance of RF. I believe this mechanism is "fatter" on EF cameras and can't fit inside the RF mount.


It could be the rumoured 8K cameras (C700, C700 FF) going to be RF mount. Hopefully RF adapters for C300iii and C500ii.


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## Joel C (Oct 19, 2020)

There's only so much money in the world. Get these released so I can give it all to canon.


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## Kjsheldo (Oct 19, 2020)

If the name C90 is out there, can't imagine it won't be RF Mount. Sounds like an RF Mount with full-frame sensor (C500), since C70 has C300 III sensor. 

The mount on C300 III and C500 II is interchangeable, so I wonder if you could put something like the EF>RF speedbooster on the C300 III - that would be huge.


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## Bob Howland (Oct 19, 2020)

Will the C50 be the crash cam of the lineup?


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## DBounce (Oct 19, 2020)

I already preordered the C70... after that my next Canon camera will be the R1.


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## PureClassA (Oct 19, 2020)

Seems like the C500-2 Sensor would be the logical progression into the C90 .... or some updated version thereof. But a full frame sensor.


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## PureClassA (Oct 19, 2020)

DBounce said:


> I already preordered the C70... after that my next Canon camera will be the R1.



That's exactly where I'm leaning.


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## Stanly (Oct 19, 2020)

landon said:


> RF adapters for C300iii and C500ii



That is not possible – RF has shorter flange distance compared to EF, that's why you're able to adapt only EF lenses to RF mount and not the other way around. It might also be impossible to fit old ND system within the shorter RF flange distance, that's why I doubt any of the existing EOS C cameras will get that.


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## Joules (Oct 19, 2020)

Stanly said:


> That is not possible – RF has shorter flange distance compared to EF, that's why you're able to adapt only EF lenses to RF mount and not the other way around. It might also be impossible to fit old ND system within the shorter RF flange distance, that's why I doubt any of the existing EOS C cameras will get that.


Technically correct, but what is being talked about here is not an actual adapter but rather switching out the lens mount itself. Which is a possibility on some cinema cameras.


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## filmmakerken (Oct 19, 2020)

The C90 ought to be the video version of the R5 -- full frame 8K sensor, RF mount, with all the pro-video features of the C70. We'll see...


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## Stanly (Oct 19, 2020)

Joules said:


> Technically correct, but what is being talked about here is not an actual adapter but rather switching out the lens mount itself. Which is a possibility on some cinema cameras.


I'll copy my initial comment partially here  Canon made a big deal about slimming down the ND mechanism for C70 for it to be able to work within shorter flange distance of RF. I believe EF cameras ND mechanism is "fatter" and can't fit inside the RF mount flange distance.


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## mariosk1gr (Oct 19, 2020)

C90 a version of R5? In which world some of you believe that c90 will lend specs from R5? R5 is an amazing tool but not even close in the league of c70/c300/c500!! C90 probably will get the same sensor of c500 mark ii or at the best an updated version of this one (maybe full frame DGO?). I remind you that c300 Mark III sensor has been measured close to 13 stops (Alexa on the top with 14) which is an excellent result! From the other hand R5 has only 10 steps of DR in all-i modes except raw which gives 11.6 if I remember good. So we r talking right now for an almost 3 stops difference in latitude between c70 and R5. So c90 will be better than c70 and will have much more difference against R5.


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## sean3d (Oct 19, 2020)

I'd like genlock in a new box camera for 3D.


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## HarryFilm (Oct 19, 2020)

Stanly said:


> That is not possible – RF has shorter flange distance compared to EF, that's why you're able to adapt only EF lenses to RF mount and not the other way around. It might also be impossible to fit old ND system within the shorter RF flange distance, that's why I doubt any of the existing EOS C cameras will get that.




Technically, that isn't quite fully true.

You can use a metamaterial glass-or-acrylic lens system (i.e. etched light paths) that have tiny "drilled/etched" light tubes that bend/redirect the incoming light path spreading it wider or narrower to each pixel on the sensor even on a really short flange distance mount such as the RF mount or the longer flange distance of an EF mount. This means an RF mount CAN be mated to an EF mount!


It also means we could put a Sony G-Lens or even a PENTAX LENS on a Canon R5 or a 5D mk4 camera by making the proper metamaterial lens adapter!

Of course, the metamaterial glass is VERY EXPENSIVE to manufacture. Etched/3D-printed light tubes are HOW they make one type of negative refractive index metamaterial for optical stealth systems (i.e. search for HyperStealth and/or QuantumStealth) which REDIRECT LIGHT AWAY FROM or AROUND a destination object. This same technology can be used for highly direct multi-lens super-telephoto image sensing that fits in a small box!

i.e. usually used on Spy Satellites .....

See informative links below:










Negative-index metamaterial - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org






AND






__





Negative refraction - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org






AND










Metamaterial - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org






AND










Wikiwand - Metamaterial cloaking


Shielding an object from view using materials made to redirect light




www.wikiwand.com







P.S. You didn't hear this from me! ;-)  ;-)

You HAVE NOW ALREADY FORGOTTEN you have EVER read this! Right?

V


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## iamjhil (Oct 19, 2020)

They are barely giving time to let their cameras breathe.. Now i'm wondering if i hold off on getting the C70. Ughhh


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## jam05 (Oct 20, 2020)

The 2 digit numbered Cine cameras will be RF mount. C50, C70, and C90


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## SpaceGhost (Oct 20, 2020)

JoeDavid said:


> They should put the guts of an R5 in the form factor of the C70.


I keep saying this (but add at least mini xlr inputs) but I thought I was the only one that wants this. I'll say it again, the R5 is nearly perfect for the professional content creator if it didn't have the time limits. I'm no longer actively working in cinema style projects so I want easy of use but still high quality. 

There is a huge segment between cinema and webcams and we're willing to pay a reasonable price. 

I'd pay $10k for a C70 with the internals of an R5. So 8k full frame, IBIS, minimum 4:2:2, internal RAW, eye focus, built in ND filters, flippy screen, no time limits, XLR inputs, dual slots of course.


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## sean3d (Oct 20, 2020)

JoeDavid said:


> They should put the guts of an R5 in the form factor of the C70.



slightly OT. But I wonder if it would be profitable for a 3rd party to do this. There are companies re-housing Canon glass, why not re-house a MILC? I'd pay an extra $2000 for have a rehoused R5 without overheating.


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## landon (Oct 20, 2020)

iamjhil said:


> They are barely giving time to let their cameras breathe.. Now i'm wondering if i hold off on getting the C70. Ughhh


Perhaps it's better that they let us know what's coming, so you don't regret buy. C90 could be identical to the C70 body, but FF, to counter the fx6.


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## RayValdez360 (Oct 20, 2020)

sean3d said:


> slightly OT. But I wonder if it would be profitable for a 3rd party to do this. There are companies re-housing Canon glass, why not re-house a MILC? I'd pay an extra $2000 for have a rehoused R5 without overheating.


probably voids all warranties on a $3800 camera.


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## RayValdez360 (Oct 20, 2020)

Ok i have questions. how is the c300 vs the 500 besides sensor size. and how is the dr in the eos r5 vs something like a c500. is the DR related to the sensor mainly or does the processing or processors help with the true image quality.


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## Stanly (Oct 20, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> You can use a metamaterial glass-or-acrylic lens system (i.e. etched light paths) that have tiny "drilled/etched" light tubes that bend/redirect the incoming light path spreading it wider or narrower to each pixel on the sensor even on a really short flange distance mount such as the RF mount or the longer flange distance of an EF mount. This means an RF mount CAN be mated to an EF mount!



I believe it might be cheaper for customer as well as for R&D to send EF camera to Canon, for them to replace ND mechanism with some updated slim version and ship it back now compatible with RF replacement mount.



RayValdez360 said:


> Ok i have questions. how is the c300 vs the 500 besides sensor size. and how is the dr in the eos r5 vs something like a c500. is the DR related to the sensor mainly or does the processing or processors help with the true image quality.


C300 has identical DGO sensor to C70, but also internal RAW which always makes better use of the information coming from the sensor. C500 has internal RAW as well, but no DGO, so dynamic range will be about the same as R5 / 1DX. Another thing to keep in mind with R5 is that if you're not feeling like shooting 8K RAW – second best option is C-Log1, which has limited DR and clips highlights, while all Canon cinema cameras have C-Log2 and C-Log3. There were rumors of Canon bringing C-Log2 to R5, but that has yet to happen (if it ever will).


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## HarryFilm (Oct 20, 2020)

Stanly said:


> I believe it might be cheaper for customer as well as for R&D to send EF camera to Canon, for them to replace ND mechanism with some updated slim version and ship it back now compatible with RF replacement mount.
> 
> 
> C300 has identical DGO sensor to C70, but also internal RAW which always makes better use of the information coming from the sensor. C500 has internal RAW as well, but no DGO, so dynamic range will be about the same as R5 / 1DX. Another thing to keep in mind with R5 is that if you're not feeling like shooting 8K RAW – second best option is C-Log1, which has limited DR and clips highlights, while all Canon cinema cameras have C-Log2 and C-Log3. There were rumors of Canon bringing C-Log2 to R5, but that has yet to happen (if it ever will).




---

Yes! That could be done for about $1500 to send the camera back to Canon for a mount switch-out if they offer it. I do remember a few years ago a company in Hollywood was replacing EF mounts on Canon 1Dc's and 5D-3s with a Hollywood Cinema-friendly PL mount. I remember it cost a minimum of $3000 USD to do because they CNC machined a custom stainless steel PL mount and took apart the camera to fit it in. Even at $3000, it was STILL CHEAPER than buying a new Canon C300 in those days. 

WHY they would do that is a tad beyond me since the PL mount is designed for a Super-35 frame while these cameras are FULL FRAME so they must have put in a "Diffracter Lens Element" to spread the image wider to fill the entire full frame sensor which would lose you about a half-a-stop of light at least!

What would be REALLY COOL is to put a PL mount or an RF mount on a Canon XC-15 Camera to make it a fully interchangeable lens camera!

Since the XC-15 is a one inch sensor, you could use ANY EF, RF and PL mount lens with the right adapter. The XC-15 is an IDEAL AND VERY LIGHT CAMERA for use on drones and as a 4K resolution crash cam. Hopefully, the upcoming XC-20 will be interchangeable lens with an RF mount!

You can ALSO CNC-machine your own mount/adapter for almost ANY type of lens from ANY type of camera. It's just means you need to have some decent skills with CAD/CAM/FEA!

V


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## Stanly (Oct 20, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> WHY they would do that is a tad beyond me since the PL mount is designed for a Super-35 frame while these cameras are FULL FRAME so they must have put in a "Diffracter Lens Element" to spread the image wider to fill the entire full frame sensor which would lose you about a half-a-stop of light at least!


Are you invested in diffractive optics or something mate?  there are a bunch of misconceptions in your message, but mainly:

1. There are A LOT of PL-mount full frame cinema lenses: Cooke S7/i line, Zeiss CP.3 & Supreme Primes, Canon's own Sumire line etc.
2. There are PL-mount full frame cinema cameras, like RED Monstro 8K VV
3. Ironically 1DC captures 4K with APS-H crop


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## PowerMike G5 (Oct 20, 2020)

RayValdez360 said:


> Ok i have questions. how is the c300 vs the 500 besides sensor size. and how is the dr in the eos r5 vs something like a c500. is the DR related to the sensor mainly or does the processing or processors help with the true image quality.



The DGO sensor in the C300 Mark III is a newer, next generation design than the FF sensor in the C500 Mark II (which is based on the C200/C700 generation of sensor).

Though the FF sensor should show better noise characteristics at higher ISOs, the DGO S35 sensor actually is cleaner! There are several tests out there showing the difference already at ISO 1600 (and these cinema cameras are really great at high ISO already).

The DR on cinema sensors should be a good deal better than the R5. Canon is claiming 16+ stops on the DGO cameras. It's a combination of sensor, processing and Canon Log 2, along with the raw recording. The pixel pitch on the C300 MIII/C500 Mark II sensors is a lot larger as well and these sensors were built specifically for video only, so they don't have to cramp in pixels for the stills side of things.


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## HarryFilm (Oct 20, 2020)

Stanly said:


> Are you invested in diffractive optics or something mate?  there are a bunch of misconceptions in your message, but mainly:
> 
> 1. There are A LOT of PL-mount full frame cinema lenses: Cooke S7/i line, Zeiss CP.3 & Supreme Primes, Canon's own Sumire line etc.
> 2. There are PL-mount full frame cinema cameras, like RED Monstro 8K VV
> 3. Ironically 1DC captures 4K with APS-H crop




NOW there are but ten years ago, then it was only high end Cooke S-series or Zeiss/Arri Master Prime or Leica Summilux in S-35 sizes and they they DID NOT HAVE Full Frame lenses in modern cinema focal lengths. It wasn't until the 65mm Sensor Phantom Gold 4K Camera was introduced almost a decade ago that large format lenses began appearing for non-film cameras.

Phantom Gold was one of the FIRST large format cameras and the only thing out there was some Panavision 70 mm and Arri 70mm lenses which were adapted for it.

I have the four 1Dcs for my general daily web-based operations and I just use our Canon 16-to-35 mm lenses or the 85mm on them and it works fine for video! We do have a few sets of Zeiss/Arri Master Primes and a few sets of Leica Summilux-C but those are for the Canon C700 GS which is an S-35 PL mount.

In terms of Diffractive optics, the parent company does have a specialty group in that field but the focus is now more on high refractive index Acrylic plastic lenses or negative index metamaterials which BYPASS the concept of lenses entirely. Basically we glue a strand of single-mode glass fibres to each large sensor's photosite and point them all as a group in the right direction with a small micro-lens at the other end of each fibre strand being the zoom elements and that means NO MORE normal zoom or prime lenses are needed! We just capture and bend some incoming lightwaves from a specific direction and direct then onto a single photosite and then output sample ALL of the photosites all at once global shutter style at 64-bits (16-bits per RGB + UV or IR channels)


You DO NOT NEED actual primes or zoom lenses because the single-mode glass fibres with their attached micro-lenses ARE the zooming element in themselves when properly oriented and bent at specific angles to ensure a zoom-lens-like emulation. The DSP and image processing software takes care of figuring WHAT type of orientation and fibre bend would create a series of pixels of a specific colour value at any given emulated focal length which can range from 12mm to 9600 mm equivalent, all within a cubic volume only a little larger in size as a Size 14 US shoebox! That means we can put MANY focal lengths in the same box assembly weighing little more than 20 kilos!

THAT is the future of computation photography where bunched-together glass fibre bundles ARE both a zoom lens and a prime lenses AT THE SAME TIME and WITHIN THE SAME BOX! We have versions in operation now and us and other companies are releasing versions for engineering use later next year. Consumer-level pricing for such gear is probably five to seven years away at my guess simply due to cost of manufacturing the glass-fibre bundles and attaching and KEEPING each strand attached properly to a single large-sensor photosite. IT IS NOT EASY to do that on a consistent basis!

WE DO, HOWEVER, have OTHER technologies in the development stage that use 3D-printed layers of Acrylic to form SOLID PLASTIC waveguides that perform the same operation for EACH photosite. That would make a multi-focal length combo-zoom/prime lens system MUCH CHEAPER than using bundles of glass fibre!

All Coming Soon to a Theatre and Store NEAR YOU!

V


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## BeenThere (Oct 20, 2020)

Sounds amazing. I doubt it will in my price range for a long long time —- if ever.


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## SaP34US (Oct 20, 2020)

Has it been confirmed weather C50 will havethe same form factor as the C70 or be a box camera? I am hoping its similar to the C70 in form.


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## landon (Oct 20, 2020)

SaP34US said:


> Has it been confirmed weather C50 will havethe same form factor as the C70 or be a box camera? I am hoping its similar to the C70 in form.


The post says the C50 is box style. Perhaps Canon makes a future C60 be a smaller C70 form. One mini xlr, 6 stops NDs.


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## jvillain (Oct 21, 2020)

SpaceGhost said:


> I keep saying this (but add at least mini xlr inputs) but I thought I was the only one that wants this.


Any Canon camera with a C at the front of it's name should have some flavor of XLR.



landon said:


> Perhaps it's better that they let us know what's coming, so you don't regret buy. C90 could be identical to the C70 body, but FF, to counter the fx6.


A road map like Nikon does would be so awesome. This stuff is bank breaking expensive and wrong choices can kill your company. If you buy a lens that works for S-35 today will Canon still be in the S-35 business next year or do you have to massivly over buy all large format lens you may never actually need. Will Canon suddenly release a medium format sensor and in 5 years drop all their full frame sensors forcing every one to start over again? Canon dropping their largest stills user base the crop buyers with out a word of warning was a real dick move and cost me thousands. Combine that with their flat out lies about their cameras capabilities and Canon has lost my trust.


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