# Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?



## jeffe26 (Apr 16, 2014)

Hello Everyone,
I am new to these boards so I am sorry if this question is redundant, however I would like some input from more experienced photographers. 

I am looking to update my Canon T2i. It has been a good camera for my wife and I, but it just isn't cutting it anymore and we would like to update to something that can really do it all. 

As poor college students, we have a tight budget so a 5D mkIII is not really an option right now. But we are looking for a camera we can share and that will be best utilized for our different styles and settings of photography as well as videography. 

My wife has seen a recent surge in interest for wedding photography but mostly does engagement, family, and graduation portraits. And really needs a camera that can keep up. She mostly shoots out doors in early morning or dusk lighting and enjoys using a 50mm lens pretty exclusively, but is wanting to also use zoom and wide angle lenses occasionally. My needs are more for video. I mostly do sporting events and dance concerts, but was recently asked to do both a promotional film and a music video. I don't mind using manual-focus, but would prefer a camera that could help me out a bit, especially in filming fast-paced sporting events. I mostly use a 70-200 lens and occasionally a 50mm. 

Needless to say, we need to update our equipment ASAP. 

Which of these cameras will best serve our needs and why? We are also open to other options. 

Thank you so much for your time and advice.


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## Drizzt321 (Apr 16, 2014)

I'd say if you need the wider spread AF points for sports, 70D is the way to go, while for the rest of the photography the 6D will be superior. The center AF point on the 6D is actually really very good, and it has better low light capabilities than the 5d3 AF points, although on the 6D it's only the center AF point.

Video, it's somewhat a wash, but if you want to be able to have it AF for you (you tap on the LCD), then 70D is the way to go. If you are comfortable with manually focusing for video like you are now, doesn't matter too much, although the 6D will have a shallower DoF, all other things the same, and will have better low-light IQ.


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## wsmith96 (May 7, 2014)

I think that the 70D would be a better choice for you here given your video requirements. The 6D is a very nice camera, but for fast paced video, I think you'll like the 70D's AF system a bit better.

Good luck!


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## Ruined (May 19, 2014)

jeffe26 said:


> Hello Everyone,
> I am new to these boards so I am sorry if this question is redundant, however I would like some input from more experienced photographers.
> 
> I am looking to update my Canon T2i. It has been a good camera for my wife and I, but it just isn't cutting it anymore and we would like to update to something that can really do it all.
> ...



If you can manual focus most of the time and need to shoot in low light at times, get a 6D and a Mosaic Engineering VAF-6D.

If you need speedy autofocus & tracking for your video, get a 70D. But the quality of your video will suffer tremedously in low light compared to the 6D, the 70D will be much noisier.


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## Marsu42 (May 19, 2014)

jeffe26 said:


> My wife has seen a recent surge in interest for wedding photography but mostly does engagement, family, and graduation portraits. And really needs a camera that can keep up. She mostly shoots out doors in early morning or dusk lighting and enjoys using a 50mm lens pretty exclusively, but is wanting to also use zoom and wide angle lenses occasionally. My needs are more for video. I mostly do sporting events and dance concerts, but was recently asked to do both a promotional film and a music video. I don't mind using manual-focus, but would prefer a camera that could help me out a bit, especially in filming fast-paced sporting events. I mostly use a 70-200 lens and occasionally a 50mm.



The 6d is a specialized landscape-tourism-stills camera with bad video (moiré) and a very mediocre af system. If you use fast lenses (like 50mm) and want to do any af tracking you won't be happy with it. Though in theory, your 50/70-200mm are designed with ff in mind.

You need to evaluate if the 70d is up to the iso speed requirements for your wedding/indoor shots, the full frame 6d has about 2 stops more iso capability... you will need to make compromises, no one likes to pay €2500 for a 5d3 but Canon has tweaked the lineup so it's the only lower-light all around body.


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## David_in_Seattle (May 19, 2014)

If your wife is getting more serious about wedding and portraiture photography then the 6D is the better choice. However, if you're getting paid for recording dance and sports then the 70D's dual pixel AF system for video is a huge improvement over any previous DSLR.

The image quality of the 70D compared to your T2i isn't much better. I use to own a T2i and now have a 70D & 60D for run & gun videography while I have a 5Dmk3 and a 1DX for photography or studio video work.

The 60D essentially has the same sensor as the T2i and the 70D's sensor doesn't have a noticeable improvement for high ISO. The main improvements the 70D has over the T2i and the 60D is that it utilizes a similar 19 all cross-type AF system seen in the 7D, has a dual pixel AF system for live view that works well in good lighting conditions, and has a touch screen LCD which is helpful for manually changing the focal point in live view. If you're satisfied with the photo and video quality of your T2i, then you'll be fine with the 70D.

The 6D is a whole different camera. First off, it's a full frame camera and as a result its sensor's pixel density is about half of what the 70D is; meaning it will be at least a full stop better in low light. It'll also have a shallower depth of field when using the same lens compared to the crop sensor 70D; enabling more noticeable separation of your subject from the background at the same aperture. The 6D's live view AF system is not much better than the T2i and it does suffer from moire due to the compression on the sensor to 1080p.


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## Marsu42 (May 19, 2014)

David_in_Seattle said:


> If your wife is getting more serious about wedding and portraiture photography then the 6D is the better choice.



Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but serious wedding and 6d/5d2 af system doesn't square. You can use it as a 2nd or backup body, but for anything mission-critical that moves this is not the camera you can rely upon. Think of the couple walking down the church alley, your af tracking fails and you have to say "Well, you know, I saved $1000, could you please repeat it?".


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## bholliman (May 19, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> David_in_Seattle said:
> 
> 
> > If your wife is getting more serious about wedding and portraiture photography then the 6D is the better choice.
> ...



There are plenty of excellent wedding photographers using the 6D as their primary camera. Dustin Abbott, who often posts here is one. A local photographer, well regarded as the best in the town I live, uses a 6D as primary and 5D2 for his second shooter and doesn't have any AF issues with these bodies.

I'll be the first to admit the 6D's AF is not nearly as good as the 5D3 or 1Dx, but it's not bad either. Unless you are shooting lots of sports or fast paced wildlife (BIF), the 6D's AF is probably good enough for most uses including weddings.


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## jd7 (May 19, 2014)

> I'll be the first to admit the 6D's AF is not nearly as good as the 5D3 or 1Dx, but it's not bad either. Unless you are shooting lots of sports or fast paced wildlife (BIF), the 6D's AF is probably good enough for most uses including weddings.



+1


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## unfocused (May 19, 2014)

If you do go with the 6D keep in mind that the practical focal length of your lenses will shift with the full frame. 

If your wife likes the look of a 50mm lens, then with the 6D, that's going to require an 85mm lens to replicate the look. Fortunately, if you don't already own it, the 85mm f1.8 is a good quality, inexpensive lens. 

If you are used to using a 70-200 on the t2i, keep in mind that you'll need a 300mm lens to replicate the look on full frame. 

On the plus side, the 70-200 mm can substitute for the 50mm from a focal-length perspective (although it will be a slower lens). 

Personally, I'd go with the 6D if you live in the U.S. Canon Price Watch has just posted a $1,899 deal with a 24-105 zoom. Unfortunately, Canon's refurbished store just ended their sale, where you could get a 6D body for $1,300.


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## Zlyden (May 19, 2014)

Hmmm... actually the questions that need to be answered before making any recommendations are:

1) "What is wrong with T2i?" (T2i is good-ole 550D with 'vintage' 18 MPx sensor, right?)

2) "What lenses do you have? Are these 50 mm and 70-200 all of them you have and plan to use?" 

Otherwise the answers are simple:

1) If you need better ISO and more shallow DOF, go 6D. (But you probably will have to change the lenses to match 50 and 70-200 on crop, and these should probably be -- 85 mm and 100-400 mm)

2) If you need faster AF and to use existing lenses, go 70D. (But I personally would wait for another year or two in hope that Canon will make another higher-ISO APS-C sensor.)

_And here are probably two more answers (just in case):
1) If you need 'wedding'-stuff, go 5D3.
2) If you need 'video+sport', go 1DX._


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## David_in_Seattle (May 20, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> David_in_Seattle said:
> 
> 
> > If your wife is getting more serious about wedding and portraiture photography then the 6D is the better choice.
> ...



Did you read the original post? The guy is debating on purchasing the 70D or the 6D and cannot afford the 5Dmk3. Of course the 5Dmk3 is the better camera, but that doesn't do the guy any good when it's not within his budget and he's in need of an immediate upgrade from his aging Rebel T2i.

I personally use the 5Dmk3 and 1DX for my day job; but was given a 6D loaner by our Canon rep to test out back when it first launched. The 6D's AF system is on par with the 5Dmk2, which was the go-to camera back in it's day for wedding and event photography.


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## MichaelHodges (May 20, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> David_in_Seattle said:
> 
> 
> > If your wife is getting more serious about wedding and portraiture photography then the 6D is the better choice.
> ...




Ah, I have to disagree on that one. My 6D is more accurate than my 7D was, with many more keepers in high action shots. It's also far, far superior in low light with the -3 EV center point.








If you don't need all the video features of the 70D, go for the 6D.


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## Marsu42 (May 21, 2014)

David_in_Seattle said:


> Did you read the original post? The guy is debating on purchasing the 70D or the 6D and cannot afford the 5Dmk3.



Did you read the original post? The guy is thinking about shooting video and sports and is trying to decide between a 70d and a 6d, the latter can only be called "very mediocre" for these purposes.



MichaelHodges said:


> My 6D is more accurate than my 7D was



The 7d is notorious for the imprecise af system, but op is talking about a 5 year newer *70d* (read the op).



MichaelHodges said:


> with many more keepers in high action shots.



Did you read the 7d manual if that's what you get ? Of course I believe you, but generalizing that the 6d gives more keepers for action shots is really stretching it, I suspect even most 6d enthusiasts would disagree here. Given that the 70d has nearly double the fps of the 6d, even *if* some more shots are out of focus (which I somehow doubt) you'll still end up with more keepers.



MichaelHodges said:


> It's also far, far superior in low light with the -3 EV center point.



True, 70d "only" works up to -0.5lv - but did you calculate how little light this already is? In these conditions, I wouldn't be tempted to continue shooting with a crop sensor anyway (ymmv).

The 70d is not a low light camera, which definitely limits the op's requirements for dawn/dusk shots - the very reason I bought a 6d. My advice is just not to underestimate the 6d's limits concerning video and tracking, you get what you pay for - the 6d is not a "mini 5d3". The question is what corners the op wants to cut - though since he didn't reply since then he won't read these replies anyway.


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## AcutancePhotography (May 21, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> but serious wedding and 6d/5d2 af system doesn't square.



Good to know that all those "professional" wedding photographers who were, for years, using the 5DII were incapable of taking high quality wedding photographs and weren't serious wedding photographers. ;D 

Learn something new every day. ;D ;D


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## Marsu42 (May 21, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> Learn something new every day. ;D ;D



Sure, just ask me :-> :-> ... if you're out to mis-understand me you're welcome, this gives some fire to the thread 

Actually serious pro photogs did weddings long before 5d2 days with even less capable af systems or even mf, and in the 1800s couples had to pose motionless for some 10 seconds in front of the camera. 

Alas, _tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis_, and the question is if you can fulfill today's client expectations and survive as a wedding pro w/ yesterday's equipment. I concur 2/3 of being a pro photog is people skills and if clients pay little they cannot expect 2x1dx in the photog's bag, but I simply don't feel the 6d's af is reliable enough. Given your general amount of money you handle as a pro photog, spending this €1000 more for a 5d3 might be a sound investment.


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## MichaelHodges (May 21, 2014)

> The 7d is notorious for the imprecise af system, but op is talking about a 5 year newer *70d* (read the op).



It's the same focus system, just a bit neutered. Oh, and I agree with you concerning the consistency. Pretty terrible at telephoto.



> Did you read the 7d manual if that's what you get ? Of course I believe you, but generalizing that the 6d gives more keepers for action shots is really stretching it, I suspect even most 6d enthusiasts would disagree here. Given that the 70d has nearly double the fps of the 6d, even *if* some more shots are out of focus (which I somehow doubt) you'll still end up with more keepers.



I've used both cameras in the field for ursine and ungulates, side by side over thousands of images. The 6D is the better camera for everything. The 7D focus system only seems to do well with high contrast subjects like brightly colored sports jerseys at telephoto. There's something about it having to grab fur and feather that doesn't work all that well, at least on my copies. 

Now, the 7D does pretty well shooting high contrast objects (IE not fur and feather) in daytime conditions, but then again, what camera doesn't do well in these conditions? If someone wants to shoot sports or racing from 9 am to 4 pm, great camera. But for dawn and dusk fur and feather, the 6D embarrasses the 7D. The 70D, with my trial runs, felt similar, and I wasn't surprised to learn it has the 7D's focus system. Which means I won't be buying it, which is a shame. 



> True, 70d "only" works up to -0.5lv - but did you calculate how little light this already is? In these conditions, I wouldn't be tempted to continue shooting with a crop sensor anyway (ymmv).




The camera last to come out at dawn, and first to be bagged at dusk is probably not the better camera within the context of wildlife photography.





> The 70d is not a low light camera, which definitely limits the op's requirements for dawn/dusk shots - the very reason I bought a 6d. My advice is just not to underestimate the 6d's limits concerning video and tracking, you get what you pay for - the 6d is not a "mini 5d3". The question is what corners the op wants to cut - though since he didn't reply since then he won't read these replies anyway.



I agree that the 6D is not as responsive as the 70D and 7D. But what it lacks in responsiveness, it makes up for in sheer IQ, dusk/dawn usage, fur and feather, and IMHO, a higher keeper rate even in action shots during critical wildlife times. 

I didn't want to think this was true, trust me. How could a lowly, slow, cut down bottom-end Canon FF outperform the top tier crop bodies? I prefer the build of the 7D. I prefer the flip out screen of the 70D, FPS, and buffer. But in the end, when I went through gigs of images, it was very clear, even on similar action subjects, which the better camera was.


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## Marsu42 (May 21, 2014)

MichaelHodges said:


> It's the same focus system, just a bit neutered. Oh, and I agree with you concerning the consistency. Pretty terrible at telephoto.



I didn't read up on the 70d, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does better than 7d - it's got another af chip setup and Canon seems to have improved af accuracy lately, for example 5d2->6d which also nearly share the same af system. Don't forget the 7d is 5 years old, and this lack of fine-tuning is probably where it shows.



MichaelHodges said:


> I didn't want to think this was true, trust me. How could a lowly, slow, cut down bottom-end Canon FF outperform the top tier crop bodies?



Fyi: I own a 60d which is basically a cut-down 7d, but the 60d has less banding and a bit more precise af system (though less af points and a crippled firmware). Next to macro (crop = deeper dof = good) I am always surprised how snappy the 60d is vs. 6d when I use it esp. with the f2.8 100L. I just don't get his "hit or miss" feeling like with the 6d. And no, I don't think my 6d is broken 

Problem of course is that the crop sensor is mediocre even at iso 800 and starts getting terrible above, that's why I bought the 6d - otherwise I had to stop shooting at dusk or dawn. But for simple daylight shots, w/o thin dof requirements and no need for very heavy postprocessing I'm still saving shutter cycles on my 6d because the 60d does the job.


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## MichaelHodges (May 21, 2014)

> I didn't read up on the 70d, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does better than 7d - it's got another af chip setup and Canon seems to have improved af accuracy lately, for example 5d2->6d which also nearly share the same af system. Don't forget the 7d is 5 years old, and this lack of fine-tuning is probably where it shows.



I've read the 70D has major focus issues, too. It's all over the net, unfortunately. Sad to hear this, but I'm not surprised based on my 7D experience.



> Fyi: I own a 60d which is basically a cut-down 7d, but the 60d has less banding and a bit more precise af system (though less af points and a crippled firmware). Next to macro (crop = deeper dof = good) I am always surprised how snappy the 60d is vs. 6d when I use it esp. with the f2.8 100L. I just don't get his "hit or miss" feeling like with the 6d. And no, I don't think my 6d is broken
> 
> Problem of course is that the crop sensor is mediocre even at iso 800 and starts getting terrible above, that's why I bought the 6d - otherwise I had to stop shooting at dusk or dawn. But for simple daylight shots, w/o thin dof requirements and no need for very heavy postprocessing I'm still saving shutter cycles on my 6d because the 60d does the job.



The 60D was/is a real gem by Canon. It didn't have the focus issues of 7D/70D, and just produced better RAW files from what I've seen. If it had MFA, I'd own it. I definitely miss my 50D, too.

Also, I hope the 6d shutter cycle isn't too weak. Love that camera.


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## neuroanatomist (May 21, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> True, 70d "only" works up to -0.5lv - but did you calculate how little light this already is? In these conditions, I wouldn't be tempted to continue shooting with a crop sensor anyway (ymmv).



This point is often missed by people touting the low-light AF sensitivity of the 6D. Sure, it can AF at -3 EV. One example of settings yielding a -3 EV exposure would be 1/15 s, f/2.8, ISO 102400…unlikely to prroduce a usable result in most situations, and offering no _practical_ advantage over the -2 EV sensitivity of the 5DIII/1D X. As you state, dropping to -0.5 EV for the 70D still puts you in the likely unusable image category from an IQ standpoint – you can achieve focus, but the resulting image has motion blur, too little DoF, and/or too much noise.


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## neuroanatomist (May 21, 2014)

MichaelHodges said:


> I've read the 70D has major focus issues, too. It's all over the net, unfortunately. Sad to hear this, but I'm not surprised based on my 7D experience.



LOL. Sure, everything on the internet is true. Whatever you do, _don't_ Google "<your make/model car> engine problems" or else instead of buying your next lens, you'll be buying a new car for fear that yours is about to die at any moment. Oops, did you just run that same search for the cars you were considering buying? Hope you like walking… :


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## MichaelHodges (May 21, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> MichaelHodges said:
> 
> 
> > I've read the 70D has major focus issues, too. It's all over the net, unfortunately. Sad to hear this, but I'm not surprised based on my 7D experience.
> ...



Well, that's an "appeal to extremes" logical fallacy if I ever saw one. 

Because the internet is the internet doesn't mean there isn't faulty gear.


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## Zlyden (May 21, 2014)

Well... the discussion is very interesting, but... we still do not have any information from OP about:

1) Why he does not like T2i anymore? (Why he wants to upgrade it?)

2) Why he needs "Do-It-All" camera? (I do not think such thing exists, unless it's some future "iPhone 7S".)

3) Why he uses this very strange/weird/crazy lens collection on APS-C camera (like 50 + 70-200)?


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## neuroanatomist (May 21, 2014)

MichaelHodges said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > MichaelHodges said:
> ...



The "major focusing issues" that you've read about "all over the Internet" seem to have come from *two* people who were able to demonstrate legitimate problems with their 70D, followed by a whole bunch of other people who performed inadequate and inconclusive testing, but still determined they had a problem with their cameras (which they may have, except the problem isn't with the hardware but rather with the person holding the camera). Of those two individuals, one of them subsequently reported that he had sent his camera in for service, and Canon found it to be effective.

Two people able to document a problem among the huge number of cameras produced, but it's "all over the Internet" and people should avoid buying the camera because of this 'huge problem'. But hey, if a few forum posts support your own bias, they must be true! Oh well, that's the Internet for you… :


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## MichaelHodges (May 21, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> The "major focusing issues" that you've read about "all over the Internet" seem to have come from *two* people who were able to demonstrate legitimate problems with their 70D, followed by a whole bunch of other people who performed inadequate and inconclusive testing, but still determined they had a problem with their cameras (which they may have, except the problem isn't with the hardware but rather with the person holding the camera). Of those two individuals, one of them subsequently reported that he had sent his camera in for service, and Canon found it to be effective.
> 
> Two people able to document a problem among the huge number of cameras produced, but it's "all over the Internet" and people should avoid buying the camera because of this 'huge problem'. But hey, if a few forum posts support your own bias, they must be true! Oh well, that's the Internet for you… :




So you know for certain that only two 70D's have focus issues? You must be extremely busy.


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## traingineer (May 22, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> The 7d is notorious for the imprecise af system



And where does it say the 7D is commonly known for an imprecise AF system? ???


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## Don Haines (May 22, 2014)

Zlyden said:


> Well... the discussion is very interesting, but... we still do not have any information from OP about:
> 
> 1) Why he does not like T2i anymore? (Why he wants to upgrade it?)
> 
> ...



The 70-200 (any variant) is a far superior longer lens than any of the APS-C lenses. It's probably the most used lens with my 60D.... It gives great reach on a crop body and (the F4 IS version anyway) is light enough to be easily carried around and fits into a smaller sized pelican case.

Image is heavily cropped and taken from a canoe today with a 60D and 70-200F4IS.


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## David_in_Seattle (May 22, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> David_in_Seattle said:
> 
> 
> > Did you read the original post? The guy is debating on purchasing the 70D or the 6D and cannot afford the 5Dmk3.
> ...



That's why I pointed out the 70D for his needs in videography and sports while I recommended the 6D for his wife's wedding and portrait photography.

Here's the first paragraph of my original response:
"If your wife is getting more serious about wedding and portraiture photography then the 6D is the better choice. However, if you're getting paid for recording dance and sports then the 70D's dual pixel AF system for video is a huge improvement over any previous DSLR."

My point was that given his budget, he has to decide whether his wife's need or his own needs in a camera are a higher priority.


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## neuroanatomist (May 22, 2014)

traingineer said:


> MichaelHodges said:
> 
> 
> > The 7d is notorious for the imprecise af system
> ...



All over the Internet, obviously.  The 40D was a better camera anyway, everyone on the Internet said so when the 7D came out. Now..._my_ 7D, which I used for years to shoot birds, wildlife, and other subjects with which my 5DII's AF (which performs much like the 6D's AF) couldn't keep up, that camera didn't have a notoriously imprecise AF. My Subaru's engine is just fine, too. Could something 'all over the Internet' possibly be wrong? 

Obviously, any manufacturing/QC process lets a few defective units out – the cost of manufacturing perfection is unsupportable. But the vast majority of people who get a properly functioning product don't inundate multiple forums with posts about how perfect their cameras are. Advising against purchasing a product because of a few (relative to units sold) complaints on the Internet is foolish.


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## Zlyden (May 22, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Image is heavily cropped and taken from a canoe today with a 60D and 70-200F4IS.



Wow! Cool!

Is this scene a 'sporting event' or a 'wedding'? ;D
(Why wedding can not be classified as sporting event, anyway?)


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## Marsu42 (May 22, 2014)

traingineer said:


> And where does it say the 7D is commonly known for an imprecise AF system? ???



See Lensrentals, other than "all over the net" this is one source I trust... scroll down to the 50d vs 7d vs 60d graph. Subjectively, this squares with my experience that the 60d af works just fine (it just has too few points and zero af tracking fw configuration) while I now and again read about 7d users struggling with their 7d.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/autofocus-reality-part-3b-canon-cameras

In their test the newest t4i is the most precise, that's why I assumed this trend to continue with the 70d - but as I wrote above, I didn't research this and Canon might have also just put the very same 7d af module into the newer camera.


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## neuroanatomist (May 22, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> traingineer said:
> 
> 
> > And where does it say the 7D is commonly known for an imprecise AF system? ???
> ...



The difference between the T3i and T4i _might_ approach significance, but there's really no significant difference between the 50D, 7D, 60D, and T3i, and 5DII. About all you can conclude from those graphs is that the 1D X and 5DIII are significantly better. 

Also, bear in mind that Roger states, "_We then tested it in our Imatest lab using *one copy of each Canon camera* we carry._" I didn't notice that the first time I read the article. One copy? Knowing what Roger knows about variability, I'm surprised he tested only one copy of each camera.


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## MichaelHodges (May 22, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Advising against purchasing a product because of *a few (relative to units sold) complaints *on the Internet is foolish.



That's a bit presumptuous, isn't it? I'm assuming you're making that statement because you are privy to Canon's repair center data?

As users outside of Canon's internal workings we can only judge product satisfaction through feedback of our peers. And, accordingly, the "noise" out there for the 70D and 7D seems to be much higher than their other camera bodies. 

I sympathize with many who complain about the 7D/70D focus issues as my experience mirrors the inconsistency. 

The complaints of the 70D are especially interesting (many from Germany, it seems) which uses the same AF as the 7D:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUUxpneyGsY

A petition to Canon with 400 signatures:

https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/canon-70d-autofokus-maengel-fuer-eine-ehrliche-stellungnahme-von-canon


Now, does this mean every Canon 70D is bad? Of course not. But that doesn't matter when you're one of the customers who got a bad one, and you lose great shots, and suddenly find yourself beyond the return date.


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## neuroanatomist (May 22, 2014)

MichaelHodges said:


> The complaints of the 70D are especially interesting (many from Germany, it seems) which uses the same AF as the 7D:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUUxpneyGsY
> 
> ...



Thanks for supporting my point, albeit unintentionally. That video was linked earlier in this thread, and based on the information provided in the clip, the 'problem' being demonstrated – sharp images with live view, OOF images with viewfinder AF – is exactly what AFMA is designed to correct. How many of those 400 petition signers know what AFMA is, and have properly calibrated their lenses? I suspect the number of petitioin signers with a camera that's actually defective is _much_ smaller than 400, as many of those people quite likely read about it on the Internet, and decided they have a problem unit despite not checking appropriately. So, you have a few people in Germany with cameras that are actually defective…and it's the second best selling dSLR in the country according to Amazon.

Why Germany? Most likely beacuse someone there got a defective camera and posted about it on a German-language forum. 

Sure, it's unfortunate that some people get defective products, but as I stated, defective units are unavoidable in any mass-produced item. In the case of the 70D, the camera came out less than one year ago, meaning everyone who owns one still has warranty coverage provided by Canon. 

When a problem is documented and widespread, Canon issues a Product Advisory and provides free repair for the problem, even after warranty coverage has expired. Among EOS Bodies, there have been service notices for lots of them, including the 7D. The 7D's documented issues were a residual image (corrected by firmware update) and an issue the off-center points non functioning as cross-type with a few very old Canon lenses (also affected 40D-60D, and probably affects the 70D, and the newer Rebel/xxxD bodies that inherited the 40-60D AF; more significant was that the problem also affected a few 3rd party lenses, like the fairly popular Tamron 17-50/2.8…but that's not Canon's problem, is it?). No where on the list of Product Advisories is there an issue listed for inconsistency/imprecision of the 7D's or 70D's AF system.


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## Don Haines (May 22, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> MichaelHodges said:
> 
> 
> > The complaints of the 70D are especially interesting (many from Germany, it seems) which uses the same AF as the 7D:
> ...



I think that some of the problem is an expectation that "my new camera" that I paid so much for will nail the autofocus every time.... and when it doesn't, it's the camera that is to blame.

In a way, the statement is true. The 70D does not nail every shot every time. Even in a studio setup on a tripod with good lighting and a printed target, there will be variations in autofocus from shot to shot. What is missing from the understanding is that this problem is common to ALL cameras from ALL manufacturers. As systems get better and AF technology advances, the hit rate will get higher and the variation will get lower, but it will never reach 100% and no variation.


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## Marsu42 (May 22, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> When a problem is documented and widespread, Canon issues a Product Advisory and provides free repair for the problem, even after warranty coverage has expired.



They do?! I believe you since you're a long time around, but out of interest: When did Canon offer free hardware repair after warranty on non-1d cameras?



MichaelHodges said:


> And, accordingly, the "noise" out there for the 70D and 7D seems to be much higher than their other camera bodies.



That is also my impression, but in all fairness this really doesn't mean anything: It could be simply because buyers of a "premium camera" like 7d or at least a "premium af system" like 70d expect better performance and complain more while the rest of us with Rebels and xxd simply says "well, you get what you pay for".

I know the effect because I'm much more critical with my €1600 6d than my (former €900) 60d, obviously often to the dismay of 6d fanbois or - probably a better description - people who cannot find anything wrong with the 6d af system :-}


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## neuroanatomist (May 22, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > When a problem is documented and widespread, Canon issues a Product Advisory and provides free repair for the problem, even after warranty coverage has expired.
> ...


Click on some of the service notices, where the problem is a fixable hardware issue, it's fixed for free regardless of timing. For example, the rubber grip issue for the T4i - "_Affected cameras that exhibit this phenomenon will be inspected and the rubber grips will be replaced *free of charge*,_" or the original 5D's mirror falling out - "_We will repair and reinforce the mirror portion of the affected products *free of charge*._" Worth noting that the 5D mirror advisory was issued in 2009 - the 5DII had been released and the 5D was discontinued by that point.


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## MichaelHodges (May 22, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> is exactly what AFMA is designed to correct. How many of those 400 petition signers know what AFMA is, and have properly calibrated their lenses? I suspect the number of petitioin signers with a camera that's actually defective is _much_ smaller than 400, as many of those people quite likely read about it on the Internet, and decided they have a problem unit despite not checking appropriately. So, you have a few people in Germany with cameras that are actually defective…and it's the second best selling dSLR in the country according to Amazon.




In this scenario, you're presuming things you have no way to check upon unless you work for Canon, or have the skills of a great prophet. 

One person could make the case this online noise means only a few duds exist, while another could claim the noise represents a much larger number, like statistical polling does. 

Either way is presumptuous unless you have the actual raw data. The only way for non-Canon employees to gauge product satisfaction is from their peers ,or, as you say below, a product recall. But as you and I both know, mega-corporations are not exactly models of self-regulation.



> Sure, it's unfortunate that some people get defective products, but as I stated, defective units are unavoidable in any mass-produced item. In the case of the 70D, the camera came out less than one year ago, meaning everyone who owns one still has warranty coverage provided by Canon.



Unfortunately, that means nothing. My 7D had the dreaded focus issue. I shall not go into the details here.


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## neuroanatomist (May 22, 2014)

MichaelHodges said:


> In this scenario, you're presuming things you have no way to check upon unless you work for Canon, or have the skills of a great prophet.
> 
> One person could make the case this online noise means only a few duds exist, while another could claim the noise represents a much larger number, like statistical polling does.
> 
> ...



The fact that there was no recall for the 7D's 'dreaded focus issue' (cue Darth Vader theme song) is evidence that it is not a widespread problem (I certainly didn't experience it, nor did any of several friends who use/used a 7D). 

If Canon issues a recall for the 70D's AF 'problem that is all over the Internet' (or if China televises an exposé and bans sale of the camera in their country, like they did for the Nikon D600), I'll happily come back here to eat my words. Until then, no matter how much frustration a small number of users feel nor how many posts/polls/petitions they make on the internet to express their frustration, the fact remains that they represent only a tiny fraction of users, and their best recourse is to send their cameras in to Canon for service.


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## AlanF (May 22, 2014)

My experience is 1 7D and 1 70D. My 7D had the same variability in AF as reported by lensrentals, and the AF with the 300mm f/2.8 II + 2xTCIII could be very, very slow, which is why I sold it. My 70D is as consistent as my 5DIII, which is superb, and focusses fast with the 300mm f/2.8 at 600mm.


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## Act444 (May 22, 2014)

I can only speak from experience...but despite the 7D's advanced focusing system, I find it to be the least accurate/most inconsistent of all the bodies I've used, and this even includes the tiny SL1. 

The variability of AF in a single framing can be dramatic from shot to shot. If I take 5 shots in a row, 1 of them will be OOF (sometimes 2, other times none). I've never experienced such variability with any of my other cameras. 

However...in terms of speed and responsiveness, there's nothing like it when it comes to shooting action. Even the 5D3 means I have to sacrifice reach...the speed and buffer capacity of the 7D is unmatched in the "crop" department. AF inconsistency and poor high ISO performance are the trade offs.

________

As for 70D vs. 6D...best to try each of them if you can and put them through their paces.


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## neuroanatomist (May 22, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > traingineer said:
> ...



One other point worth mentioning – the difference in standard deviation between the most precise and least precise bodies that Roger tested is 24 lp/mm. That represents a variation of *less than a 4% difference* in resolution. I'd think carefully about that before citing Roger's post as evidence that the 7D has an imprecise AF system.


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## AlanF (May 22, 2014)

Neuro
I think there is a fallacy in Roger's statistics, but I can't really tell because he doesn't provide enough details. First look at the spread.

1. 31.7% of measurements should fall beyond the standard deviation for a normal distribution. Look at the chart for the 5DII (= similar to 7D) vs 5DIII in the lensrental link. The spread on the y-axis for the 5DII is 650-750, that on the 5DIII is 720-770. That really is enough to notice if you are heavy cropping. 

2. The fallacy appears to be this. He is calculating the standard deviation from the mean of the group, and the mean is not the best estimate of the best focussing spot. The best focus is at the very top of the chart! So, he just measuring a standard deviation from a value which is approximately a standard deviation from the mean.

Look at http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-3a-canon-lenses where there is an incredible difference for the series II lenses between the 5DII and 5DIII. Roger thinks they changed the feedback system between series II lenses and the rest, and the 5DIII but not the 5DII can handle it.


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## Janbo Makimbo (May 22, 2014)

The 6D is better.


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## AE1Pguy (May 22, 2014)

I don't have a 7D, or 70D.

But I do have a 6D. I've been using the "Focal" automated lens focus microadjustment tool to come up with adjustment values for all of my lenses. You line up your camera with the target, attach the camera to your computer via USB, and Focal then does all the focusing and adjusting by itself. 

Some really interesting results from my lens collection came out of this. Some lenses focus much more consistently than others, and even some of the consistent lenses really do benefit from the microadjustment.

My 24-105L was incredibly consistent, and needed no corrections. The 40mm STM was also extremely consistent, but needed a little focus tweak. Focal says it's among the sharpest lenses I own at f/8, and that backs up my subjective impression. My old 50 1.4 just had the focus motor replaced, and that one is pretty sharp. The sharpness/aperture curve rises pretty steeply from wide open up to f/4 or so, exactly what you'd expect. But it's not among the most consistent focusers.

Anyway, my point is that at least with static subjects in moderate light, the autofocus on the 6D is plenty reliable. I'm not saying there aren't better systems out there, but I don't believe I'll ever need to worry about losing shots due to AF problems in the 6D. 

If any of the rest of you have a couple of different bodies that handle microadjustment, it might be interesting to use Focal to test them all with one solid, consistent lens, and see if they behave differently with it. The Focal guys track all the results that users are willing to submit, and they are seeing patterns with certain bodies and lenses...

Link to Focal's test results: http://www.reikan.co.uk/focalweb/index.php/online-tools/lenscamera-information/lenscamera-tool-help/


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## traingineer (May 22, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> traingineer said:
> 
> 
> > MichaelHodges said:
> ...



Ah ok, because I never saw any large complaint about the 7D's focusing system to be bad, and also, what Subaru do you own?


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## Don Haines (May 22, 2014)

Act444 said:


> I can only speak from experience...but despite the 7D's advanced focusing system, I find it to be the least accurate/most inconsistent of all the bodies I've used, and this even includes the tiny SL1.
> 
> The variability of AF in a single framing can be dramatic from shot to shot. If I take 5 shots in a row, 1 of them will be OOF (sometimes 2, other times none). I've never experienced such variability with any of my other cameras.
> 
> However...in terms of speed and responsiveness, there's nothing like it when it comes to shooting action. Even the 5D3 means I have to sacrifice reach...the speed and buffer capacity of the 7D is unmatched in the "crop" department. AF inconsistency and poor high ISO performance are the trade offs.



It also has to be said that the 7D is 5 years old. It is almost inconceivable that the newer bodies would not have more consistent focusing.... It's not that the 7D is bad.... when it came out it was great, but as time marches on, even the cheapest new bodies will be more consistent. 

You can not judge what was released 5 years ago by what is realeased today.


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## candc (May 23, 2014)

I have them both and I think they are both great but the 70d is a better all around camera: dpaf, touch/swivel screen, pop up flash. I use the 6d for low light, wider and shallower depth of field when I want it. Get them both if you can otherwise go for the 70d.

My .02

p.s. I don't shoot video much but the 70d is good for it


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## RustyTheGeek (May 23, 2014)

bholliman said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > David_in_Seattle said:
> ...



No offense but I own the 6D, 5D3 and 60D (not to mention many other Canon bodies) and I am fully confident in the 6D autofocus. In fact, until a firmware update fixed the 5D3 low light AF issues, the 6D stomped it with low light AF. Don't run away from the 6D because some folks think it has flaws compared to the 5D3.

As for the OP question about 'best all-around body', I also would tend to agree with *candc*, the 70D is likely the best all around for your needs. Better video, speed for sports, etc. A FF sensor (6D) will open up a whole world of creativity but you can still create great images with an APS-C camera and that's the format you are already accustomed to anyway. Get a 6D ASAP later but get the 70D first and get busy making money to pay for other things. Buy most of your lenses in EF type so you can use them on the FF camera in the future.


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## Marsu42 (May 23, 2014)

AE1Pguy said:


> Anyway, my point is that at least with static subjects in moderate light, the autofocus on the 6D is plenty reliable.



Agreed (though the non-cross center sensor @f2.8 sometimes shows) - but what you just described only covers a fraction of the (1-post ) op's requirements, that's why I advised to have a closer look at the 70d. Or for non-Canon lens owners: buy a Nikon d610 which is budget priced, has a ff sensor *and* a recent af system :-\


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## Khalai (May 23, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> AE1Pguy said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, my point is that at least with static subjects in moderate light, the autofocus on the 6D is plenty reliable.
> ...



That may not be entirely correct. N600 and N610 uses 39 AF points array, that's true, but its coverage is actually very similar to the 6D, they are all crammed in the middle of the VF just like 6D. Moreso, only center 9 points are cross-type. So in the end you have DENSER array, but that's that I'm afraid.


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## atkinsr (May 23, 2014)

First, to answer your question:
70D. It has autofocus during video and a swivel screen. Being crop sensor, you get better zoom.

I went through the same decisioning myself, here's my thought process: 
The 5Dm3 is getting cheap enough (at times under $2600 on ebay) that I don't see any reason to even consider a 6D - you'll never get the money back on resale that you would from a 5Dm3. I'd guess that you'd even get more back out of the 70D in 2-3 years than you will out of the 6D as the 6D will be a very old camera by then, but the 70D will likely be an older current model.

Because my focus (no pun intended) is primarily still images, I saved my pennies to get a 5Dm3. I still plan on adding a 70D for the features noted in the first paragraph... video functionality (continuous AF, swivel screen - not only video, but where I would mostly use it), the crop sensor extending zoom + lighter weight makes it a much better vacation camera as well, and something I wouldn't be nearly as worried about (theft, bumps) as the 5Dm3.

If you go this route, planning to eventually get both, be careful with lens selection (EF vs EF-S).


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## MichaelHodges (May 23, 2014)

AlanF said:


> My experience is 1 7D and 1 70D. My 7D had the same variability in AF as reported by lensrentals, and the AF with the 300mm f/2.8 II + 2xTCIII could be very, very slow, which is why I sold it. My 70D is as consistent as my 5DIII, which is superb, and focusses fast with the 300mm f/2.8 at 600mm.




Nice to hear concerning the 70D, but not surprised at all with the 7D.


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## MichaelHodges (May 23, 2014)

Act444 said:


> I can only speak from experience...but despite the 7D's advanced focusing system, I find it to be the least accurate/most inconsistent of all the bodies I've used, and this even includes the tiny SL1.



This has been precisely my experience as well.


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## Cory (May 23, 2014)

If they would only make a 70D without that wretched articulating screen?


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## Marsu42 (May 23, 2014)

Cory said:


> If they would only make a 70D without that wretched articulating screen?



Probably we could exchange our screens, the missing screen is one of the things I don't like about my 6d - a fixed screen is horrible for tripod shots or shots when the camera is on/near the ground esp. when facing up.


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## jpetep (May 23, 2014)

I went back and forth on this decision and went with the 6D. I've owned various cameras over the years, Nikon, canon, Fujifilm, medium format (RZ67)...

I'm relatively new to this forum and it's funny to see such extreme opinions, many I'm guessing just regurgitated from other internet posts. I'm not a pro, but I do take a lot of pics under a wide variety of conditions...landscapes, people/portraits, indoor school plays and swim meets (sports). I shoot almost no video...though do use magic lantern on my 6D for some of the still shooting additions/options...so I can't comment on video.

I've been very happy with it - I keep reading about how its not great for sports...but I'd say my swim meet shots are almost all keepers...and some are 70 meters away + zooming in on a head coming out of the water for a fraction of a second...and they are always tack sharp...the tracking has been fine...I do usually use the center focus, AI servo. I've taken thousands of pics and have never seen one and thought the camera's focus system messed up...and I'm usually shooting close to wide open to get a shallow DOF.

The low light performance is nothing short of amazing....I was showing someone the other day...in a large living room, with one small lamp on in the far corner, 40 watt bulb....and I shot a pic of a ceiling fan on high speed, using a 12,800 iso setting and you'd think it was daylight just with a jpeg - the fans were frozen, no blur and crisp...shot in raw, and processed thru dxo or something similar and there is almost no noise. Same thing at kids play - dark room, crank up ISO, shot raw and perfect shots, almost no noise at all with no processing for noise.

I'm really not sure how much more I could expect from a camera...every mistake I've ever seen in a shot is mine, not the cameras...I would never give up the low light capabilities or full frame and I'm not sure how my swim pics could be any better (and I'm only using a 70-300, not L glass).

One of our favorite landscape shots hanging in our house my daughter took many years ago, with a 4MP canon powershot from a car going 40 miles per hour...it's a 30x20 print looking over haybales and the st. laur. river...it won 1st prize in the annual Rand McNally contest...I got rid of my RZ67 years ago when I did a test and compared a 30x20 print I paid $150 for scanning/printing from a well respected photo lab and could not tell the difference with a loop or the naked eye from the exact same shot made with a nikon d70 printed at my local Costco (and I do use their ICC profile) for $9.00 (I'm in the printing business so I understand quality & colors).

My guess is you'd be fine with either....todays cameras are amazing...I think the improved AF and ISO performance stands out....but with a 1950's 35mm film camera most can take great shots with good light and relatively still subjects...


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## Marsu42 (May 23, 2014)

Khalai said:


> So in the end you have DENSER array, but that's that I'm afraid.



The ff af arrays even of the 5d3 are rather crammed to the middle, if you want wider coverage you have to get a crop camera or use live view (esp. with 70d). I don't want to start a Nikon off-topic discussion, but the main problem with 60d and 6d is that the af points are not dense enough so you mostly end up with single-point shooting - af expansion around a single point is exactly what I'd often like to use :-\


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## Khalai (May 23, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> Khalai said:
> 
> 
> > So in the end you have DENSER array, but that's that I'm afraid.
> ...



Understood. I like AF expansion on my 7D as well. I use either this or zone AF for tracking fast subjects. My original point was, that N600 and N610 are better on paper, but for real time usage (apart from AI Servo tracking), they are actually as basic as 60D or 6D arrays (coverage of the array and spread of the crosstype are basicly the same).


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## Ruined (May 26, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> David_in_Seattle said:
> 
> 
> > If your wife is getting more serious about wedding and portraiture photography then the 6D is the better choice.
> ...



I would argue that if you can't take a beautiful, professional quality wedding with a 6D or 5D2 you are likely an amateur. A pro can easily take a wedding with a 5D2, 5D3, 6D, etc - because they know the camera and how to play to its strengths. If you use technology as a crutch and need the latest and greatest to keep up, I don't see how that makes one a 'professional.' Yes, it may be a little easier with a 5D3, but any of the three will suffice.

In the end they are all tools, and photographers have been shooting fantastic weddings for ages without the 5D3... Which by the way is also crippled due to its non-removable focus screen (poor for MFing fast lenses which many pros like to do at times); I have seen some pointing to videos that require taking the camera apart, but even if you did so the 5D3 lacks the firmware settings for the high precision matte screen.


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## tolusina (May 26, 2014)

jpetep said:


> .....
> I'm really not sure how much more I could expect from a camera...every mistake I've ever seen in a shot is mine, not the cameras...I would never give up the low light capabilities or full frame .........


So very well said.


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## bholliman (May 28, 2014)

RustyTheGeek said:


> bholliman said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



I think we are generally in agreement. Maybe my wording came across more negative about the 6D's AF than I intended? I own a 6D and have borrowed or rented 5D3 's and a 70D with enough use I think I understand each bodies strengths and limitations.

For most photography not involving fast moving sports or BIF the 6D's AF is good to very good, excellent AF accuracy and precision. Certainly a good option for weddings and events as well as landscapes, portraits and street shooting. The 6D's AF does struggle in AI Servo when compared with the 5D3 and to some degree the 70D in my opinion, partially due to the limited number of AF points. But, AI Servo is a very small percentage of what I shoot, so the 6D is a terrific body for my use.

I agree that the 70D would be the best "all around" photo/video body to upgrade from a Rebel for the OP's stated purposes.


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