# Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and Nikko



## ahsanford (Jul 25, 2018)

Nikon is stringing this out as long as possible, but this is a big day nonetheless:

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/25/official-press-release-nikons-develops-the-next-generation-full-frame-mirrorless-camera.aspx/

It’s full frame. 

It’s a thinner than FX mount. 

FX lenses are compatible with an adaptor. 

Those are not trivial pieces of news. We’ve been waiting for that sort of clear tell for Canon for years here. 

- A


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## lb (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: ** Nikon announces FF mirrorless ** without many details*

Yep another Mirrorless camera out there and Canon sits back trying to
*CATCH THE MICE WHILE THE ELEPHANTS ARE GALLOPING PAST*
I believe at present Canon are so far behind designing our mirrorless generation camera that we all are hanging on and our bias remarks to other camera makers is showing our present concerns about the future of Canon cameras will our products turn into Vapourware never to be seen again


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 25, 2018)

```
<strong>MELVILLE, NY (JULY 25, 2018 at 12:01 A.M. EDT)</strong> – Nikon Inc. is pleased to announce the development of a next-generation full-frame (Nikon FX-format) mirrorless camera and NIKKOR lenses featuring a new mount.</p>
<p>The new mirrorless camera and NIKKOR lenses that are in development will enable a new dimension in optical performance with the adoption of a new mount. The system is the result of Nikon’s unsurpassed optical and manufacturing capabilities gained through more than a century of imaging expertise. Proven reliability and trusted performance are core traits of Nikon Digital-SLRs, and decades of feedback from professional creators around the world has further contributed to the development of this system.</p>
<p>Through the development of this new mirrorless camera, Nikon reaffirms our commitment to providing photographers with the ability to capture images that are richer and more vivid than ever before.</p>
<p><!--more--></p>
<p>Additionally, an F-Mount adapter is being developed that will enable the use of a wide variety of F-Mount NIKKOR lenses with the new camera.</p>
<p>Nikon will continue to lead imaging innovation with the launch of the new mirrorless camera and the continued development of Nikon Digital-SLR cameras as well as the impressive NIKKOR lens lineup. Soon, Nikon users will have two industry-leading camera systems to choose from, giving consumers the choice to enjoy the unique values that each system offers.</p>
<p>Content relating to this product is available for viewing at the following URL: <a href="http://www.nikonusa.com/mirrorlessiscoming" target="article-null">http://www.nikonusa.com/mirrorlessiscoming</a>. Please stay tuned for more information.</p>
<p>Details, including the release date and suggested retail prices, will be shared at a later date.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## jeffa4444 (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

To be clear IB both Nikon & Canon have played down mirrorless the companies that led the way were Panasonic and Olympus, then Fuji and Sony. 
I have had the Olympus cameras from the first 4/3rd camera and the only reason I bought them were the size & weight which improved again with micro 4/3rds. 

It will be interesting to see what Nikon flange depth will be the sweet spot seems to be 18 - 26mm. Canon EF-M is 18mm, the Sony E mount is 18mm but in the past the Nikon S mount was 34.85mm whilst the FX mount is 46.5mm (Canon EF/EF-S is 44mm)


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## snoke (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

Want EF adapter.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



snoke said:


> Want EF adapter.


They might happen eventually from a third party, but Nikon encrypts its data channels in camera, so after we get quantum computers in 5 or 10 years, the code can be broken. Until then, you will have manual focus, and a klutzy method of changing the aperture size.


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## melgross (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



ahsanford said:


> Nikon is stringing this out as long as possible, but this is a big day nonetheless:
> 
> https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/25/official-press-release-nikons-develops-the-next-generation-full-frame-mirrorless-camera.aspx/
> 
> ...



I was surprised, though, to read that the adapter “Is in development.” What does that mean? The camera will be officially announced no more than about a month from now, with the lenses and accessories, going by the timing of Nikon’s Pre-announcements and the later actual ones.

But I would think that before lenses are out, an adapter would be available. I’m not saying that adapters are a development walk in the park, but they’re much simpler than lenses. Certainly, if I’m a Nikon owner, and I’ve got lenses, I would want to run out and use them, as new lenses will be limited for some time.

If it’s a few weeks, that would be odd, but ok. But if it’s several months, that’s just odd.
I wonder if Canon will do the same, with the adapter coming out after the basic system.


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## melgross (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



jeffa4444 said:


> To be clear IB both Nikon & Canon have played down mirrorless the companies that led the way were Panasonic and Olympus, then Fuji and Sony.
> I have had the Olympus cameras from the first 4/3rd camera and the only reason I bought them were the size & weight which improved again with micro 4/3rds.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what Nikon flange depth will be the sweet spot seems to be 18 - 26mm. Canon EF-M is 18mm, the Sony E mount is 18mm but in the past the Nikon S mount was 34.85mm whilst the FX mount is 46.5mm (Canon EF/EF-S is 44mm)



What’s interesting about all the companies that did mirrorless before Canon, is that none of them had any market share to talk about. 1%, 2%, 3% and even Sony’s 5% were meaningless. So they had no real choice. Either remain at losing levels, and going out if the business entirely as Samsung did, or try something that no large company e.g. Canon, Nikon, was doing, as thereby gaining first mover, and hopefully a market share that will be high.

Only Sony achieved that goal, but mirrorless, until recently, wasn’t all that popular outside of Japan. Once Canon decided that the market was there, and the time was right, they entered the market. Apparently Canon knows the market better, because in a few short years, they leapt to the top of the mirrorless market, and their current line is now number one, with a high growth rate.

So when I read about all the other companies who are struggling with their lines, I just have to shake my head. Very often innovating isn’t enough, you have to convince the potential customer that the innovation is a significant step forwards. That’s not all that easy to do. With the camera market consisting mostly of entrenched users, it’s hard to convince most that what they’re using isn’t good enough. It’s not always true either.

The fact is that until recently, mirrorless hasn’t been all that great, as we see with the mostly terrible viewfinders, or even the total lack of same. Going back to a little glass opening to look through isn’t what most people expect, or want.

I think that both Canon and Nikon are going to knock the mirrorless market on its head, and these small makers will be back where they’ve always been - on the bottom.


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## josephandrews222 (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



melgross said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > To be clear IB both Nikon & Canon have played down mirrorless the companies that led the way were Panasonic and Olympus, then Fuji and Sony.
> ...



Our family of 4 each own an 'M' (both children love theirs)...and I look forward to Canon's full-frame mirrorless body. I have delayed purchase of the (in my mind) still-new 5DMk4 because the combination of 5DMk3 and M6 currently serve my needs quite well.

I will look forward to the new Canon mirrorless more if they go all out with forward-looking features worthy of the most successful camera company in the world.

To me, those features will include a new mount.


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## sdz (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

Nikon announces vaporware!


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## melgross (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



sdz said:


> Nikon announces vaporware!



No!


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## sdz (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



melgross said:


> sdz said:
> 
> 
> > Nikon announces vaporware!
> ...



Yes!

Eventually, Nikon will announce a camera, a few lenses and an adapter. But these are mist today. Nikon will eventually ship these items. Nonetheless, Nikon has promised us very little with their announcement, and nothing more than what we already knew.


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## melgross (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



sdz said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > sdz said:
> ...



Please, just stop it! All camera companies do a bit of preannouncement. We know that Nikon will make an official announcement in about a month, of real products. Vaporware was coined a long time ago when Grid came out with a tablet using their own OS. Microsoft announced that people should wait until theirs, which was in development, came out. Microsoft had no tablet OS in development at the time, and it was labeled as vaporware. Grid failed as a result of people holding back.

That’s not the case here.


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## Jester74 (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

Well, interesting... But how will Nikon adapt their existing lenses to the new mount? I know, I know. With an adapter. But will that adapter contain the mechanical parts to drive aperture? Cos most Nikon lens still use mechanical aperture control. Only the newest lenses have electronic control. What about the millions of manual Nikon lenses? MILC guys just love playing with old manual lenses. And the new shiny Nikon FF MILC won't support them? LMFAO and still possible...


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## denstore (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



Jester74 said:


> Well, interesting... But how will Nikon adapt their existing lenses to the new mount? I know, I know. With an adapter. But will that adapter contain the mechanical parts to drive aperture? Cos most Nikon lens still use mechanical aperture control. Only the newest lenses have electronic control. What about the millions of manual Nikon lenses? MILC guys just love playing with old manual lenses. And the new shiny Nikon FF MILC won't support them? LMFAO and still possible...



They will probably not support the older lenses with “screw” mechanical autofocus or mechanical aperture control. They say that the adapter “will work with the NIKKOR F mount lenses that are part of the Nikon digital SLR system”. That will probably exclude the older mechanical lenses.


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## sdz (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



melgross said:


> sdz said:
> 
> 
> > melgross said:
> ...



Vaporware refers to every piece of hardware or software that has been announced or has as a rumor supported by company hints that does not yet exist as a shipping product.

Vaporware is marketing blather, as is Nikon's announcement.

So, I'll not stop. Why should I? This announcement was mere BS masquerading as information.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



Jester74 said:


> Well, interesting... But how will Nikon adapt their existing lenses to the new mount? I know, I know. With an adapter. But will that adapter contain the mechanical parts to drive aperture? Cos most Nikon lens still use mechanical aperture control. Only the newest lenses have electronic control. What about the millions of manual Nikon lenses? MILC guys just love playing with old manual lenses. And the new shiny Nikon FF MILC won't support them? LMFAO and still possible...


Nikon has a patent which is seen as the likely method they will use to adopt those non electronic lenses. It will be self contained with AF motor aperture control, and a pellicle mirror which will, of course, reduce the light going to the sensor by some amount. Sony has a similar device.
It will be expensive, have no provision for AFMA, and, IMHO mostly frustrating if not downright useless.
That's where Canon will have a big advantage, their EF lenses will work with a simple adapter that does not require all the claptrap to work.

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/03/lets-start-talking-about-the-upcoming-nikon-mirrorless-camera.aspx/


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## mpmark (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

So it looks like Nikon are finally giving in to the limitations of their current mount, its smaller then Canons EF. Canon left the F-mount back in the 80s or 90s, can't remember, but many people were upset cause their F-mount lenses wouldn't work or needed an adapter. Why did canon do this?

Well the EF mount is larger and allowed Canon to make new exotic lenses which they couldn't do with the smaller F-mount. So Canon bit the bullet and did it. Nikon held off, scared to anger their users. Well from the images, how they light up the opening and mounting point of the camera seem to indicate they finally gave in to a new larger mount. As they state they will start making new lenses which they were limited to before cause of their smaller mount.


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## BillB (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



sdz said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > sdz said:
> ...



Maybe you should stop because you are misusing the term vaporware. An uninformative news release does not make the product vaporware. Vaporware refers to a product that is announced as under active development when it is not. The Nikon mirrorless has been in active development for quite a while and at this point is almost certainly in production. Something that is in production is not vaporware.


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## ahsanford (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



snoke said:


> Want EF adapter.



You said this on another thread, that 45 MP Nikon mirorless with an EF adaptor would be great.

Why haven't you been shooting on an A7R2 or A7R3 the past few years then?

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



melgross said:


> I wonder if Canon will do the same, with the adapter coming out after the basic system.



EOS M was announced with an adaptor right out of the gate if I recall.

Considering the biggest market and easiest sale with FF mirrorless are existing Canon users, I'd be stunned if a thin-mount FF mirrorless (and only a thin mount was announced) was not released alongside an EF/EF-S adaptor.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



sdz said:


> Nonetheless, Nikon has promised us very little with their announcement, and nothing more than what we already knew.



Incorrect. No one definitively knew Nikon was coming out with a thinner mount than F with their FF mirrorless until today. The rest was hearsay and screengrabs.

Today? It's officially thinner than F with an adaptor forthcoming -- straight from the horse's mouth.

- A


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## davidmurray (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

Not interested in a new mount. I've invested money in lenses that I want to continue using, so a new mount is pointless to me unless that "new mount" is compatible with my existing lenses.


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## ahsanford (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



Jester74 said:


> Well, interesting... But how will Nikon adapt their existing lenses to the new mount? I know, I know. With an adapter. But will that adapter contain the mechanical parts to drive aperture? Cos most Nikon lens still use mechanical aperture control. Only the newest lenses have electronic control. What about the millions of manual Nikon lenses? MILC guys just love playing with old manual lenses. And the new shiny Nikon FF MILC won't support them? LMFAO and still possible...



That mechanical aperture control is built into the FX lens, isn't it?

If an adaptor advances the 'Z' (new) mount to the F mount distance and the FX lens has a mechanical aperture ring built in, what's not to work? Should be fine.

- A


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## davidmurray (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

Oh, and will this new camera have better battery performance than my existing camera? Or will it be poorer performance but with a much bigger battery?


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## ahsanford (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



davidmurray said:


> Not interested in a new mount. I've invested money in lenses that I want to continue using, so a new mount is pointless to me unless that "new mount" is compatible with my existing lenses.



They will work. To have them _not _work would be a middle finger to all loyal FX and EF glass owners, who surely are the easiest FF mirrorless sale either company will find.

So can someone tell me -- clearly and concisely -- why a thinner than Nikon F or Canon EF mount won't accept Nikon FX or Canon EF (respectively) glass on an adaptor?

An adaptor that is effectively a tube to get the SLR lens flange distance back -- with a passthrough for AF contacts/communication -- will allow the SLR mount lens to mount and work at least as well as LiveView AF does on modern bodies today.

Someone please tell me why that can't work. _Because I'm pretty sure that's what we're about to be offered._ :

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



davidmurray said:


> Oh, and will this new camera have better battery performance than my existing camera? Or will it be poorer performance but with a much bigger battery?



Same as your SLR _in LiveView_, possibly, but no, your SLR should mop the floor with its battery life.

But I hope you don't want to shoot completely silently, focus MF glass in age of endangered SLR focus screens, shoot crazy high burst rates that are no longer mirror box limited, etc. all while the camera is held up to your eye.

It's a value proposition. To simply throw mud at mirrorless with a hackneyed/overplayed point doesn't mean mirrorless can't do some things better than an SLR. It can. You may not care about that, but Canon isn't really aiming this camera at you.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

So, the details released paint a very clear _high-level_ picture: Mirrorless + FF sensor + adaptor for FX glass. The lens picture also implies that larger glass (remember, f/0.9 was rumored) of some sort is a near-term deliverable for this platform.

But what (non-spec) surprises might Nikon not be telling us?


What else does that adaptor do besides space out the flange distance for FX and drive the AF?


That's a fairly pronounced viewfinder. Anything out of the expected going on there?


Any chance they'll offer this _and _a player-to-be-named-later FF mirrorless with a full F mount mirrorless?

- A


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## transpo1 (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



melgross said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Nikon is stringing this out as long as possible, but this is a big day nonetheless:
> ...



The adapter not available is good way to force you to buy a native lens or two


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## privatebydesign (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



transpo1 said:


> melgross said:
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> 
> > ahsanford said:
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The adapter will be a bad joke, Nikon have a horrific problem with F mount legacy lenses. Some have no ability to focus as they expect the body to have the drive and this new mirrorless adapter won't do that, many have issues with aperture too, the list is close to endless with different series of features as Nikon blew in the wind of not knowing what they thought they'd need from early AF to early crop digital to in lens AF motors and FF digital sensors.

Anybody thinking to buy a Nikon mirrorless with the intent of transitioning with their current lenses is kidding themselves, it isn't going to happen.

Canon are in a much stronger position with the EF lens series if you ignore the EF-M and EF-S, which anybody who is going to spend thousands on a new mirrorless must be aware of as neither sub series project a ff covering image circle. There is no reason why, if Canon go for a new mount on their FF mirrorless cameras, that the entire EF lens stable couldn't be fully usable with a simple dumb tube style adapter with electronic connectors.

Having said that for generations Nikon and Canon have been contrarian, if one does one thing the other seemingly deliberately does the complete opposite, lens mounts turning in opposite directions, focus direction, control dials direction, change from manual focus mount to AF dedicated mount for Canon and not for Nikon. I believe the strongest indicator that Canon might keep the EF mount is because Nikon haven't kept the F mount.


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## sdz (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



BillB said:


> sdz said:
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> > melgross said:
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Sorry, but announcing nothing specific and lacking an actual announcement date makes this vaporware, as I stated. I am not misusing the term. The term was commonly used to refer to announced product that did not ship after the announcement. Nikon's mirrorless FF camera will cease to be vaporware when it ships.

I do not believe the world is well served by marketing BS.


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## sdz (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



ahsanford said:


> sdz said:
> 
> 
> > Nonetheless, Nikon has promised us very little with their announcement, and nothing more than what we already knew.
> ...



Yes, Nikon confirmed what rumor suggested. That and a quarter will buy you a gumball.


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## stevelee (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



Mt Spokane Photography said:


>



So they will adapt DSLR lenses to a mirrorless camera by introducing a mirror? What's a catotrophobe to do?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



stevelee said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
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According to the patent, it allows for a way to autofocus those screw drive lenses as well as automatic control of the aperture. The downside is the pellicle mirror and the issues it brings, which are not trivial. One of the possible implementations mentioned is to use a very narrow frequency band of light from the pellicle mirror, which lets most of the light pass thru. You will hardly miss that color, the patent says.


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## stevelee (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

Is this the point in the thread where we argue over the definition, applicability, spelling, and pronunciation of "kludge"?


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## Talys (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



sdz said:


> BillB said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe you should stop because you are misusing the term vaporware. An uninformative news release does not make the product vaporware. Vaporware refers to a product that is announced as under active development when it is not. The Nikon mirrorless has been in active development for quite a while and at this point is almost certainly in production. Something that is in production is not vaporware.
> ...



Vaporware generally refers to tech stuff that is announced (marketing BS) that the manufacturer never makes. In this case, I highly doubt that Nikon's FF mirrorless is vaporware, because I can't imagine Nikon not actually selling one _at some point_. It's technically not vaporware, as long as Nikon _eventually_ ships it, and to be fair, in the computer world, there are products that are announced years in advance of the launch date, where the final product only vaguely resembles the announced one. On the other hand, I totally agree that this is vague product marketing that is really not informative. It's really just an aspirational ad that says, "Don't buy Sony, coz we have something cool coming. Promise!"


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## Kit. (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



ahsanford said:


> Jester74 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, interesting... But how will Nikon adapt their existing lenses to the new mount? I know, I know. With an adapter. But will that adapter contain the mechanical parts to drive aperture? Cos most Nikon lens still use mechanical aperture control. Only the newest lenses have electronic control. What about the millions of manual Nikon lenses? MILC guys just love playing with old manual lenses. And the new shiny Nikon FF MILC won't support them? LMFAO and still possible...
> ...


On AI lenses, there is a mechanical lever that closes the lens diaphragm from "focusing" (wide open) position to "shooting" (preset on the lens) position.


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## fullstop (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/03/lets-start-talking-about-the-upcoming-nikon-mirrorless-camera.aspx/



quite surprising that Nikon should be able to get this adapter patented. I'd have thought that existing Sony A- to E-mount adapters LA-EA4 and previous LA-EA2 are "previous art" to this. Working principle is definitely the same and construction too. But, whatever, claptrap is claptrap. Glad I won't need one of those. 



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> That's where Canon will have a big advantage, their EF lenses will work with a simple adapter that does not require all the claptrap to work.



Thanks! Just love that term "claptrap"! It even rhymes nicely with "mirrorslap". Even when a pellicle mirror will not slap. ;D

------------

DSLR = "claptrap with a mirror. slap slap!"  ;D


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## Jester74 (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

It's not about the aperture ring, it's about driving the aperture from the body. Nikon still use mechanical coupling to drive the aperture. Is it outdated? Yeah, a little... Using it on a MILC? No, it won't be fine. 




ahsanford said:


> Jester74 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, interesting... But how will Nikon adapt their existing lenses to the new mount? I know, I know. With an adapter. But will that adapter contain the mechanical parts to drive aperture? Cos most Nikon lens still use mechanical aperture control. Only the newest lenses have electronic control. What about the millions of manual Nikon lenses? MILC guys just love playing with old manual lenses. And the new shiny Nikon FF MILC won't support them? LMFAO and still possible...
> ...


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## Jester74 (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

Lotsa AF-S lenses also use mechanical coupling. Only "E" lenses have electrically controlled aperture drive. The MILC system will use only electronic contacts, I'm sure. Nikon will do what Canon did 30 years ago. The new MILC won't support every F-mount lenses for several reasons. Nikon guys will use the 'f***' word a lot... But don't worry, Joe McNally will promote it a lot all around the globe... 



Kit. said:


> ahsanford said:
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> > Jester74 said:
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## Jester74 (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

This thing made my day... Frankly, who the hell is gonna use it? This is just ridiculous. A MILC with a mirror? Nikon is *******....



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Jester74 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, interesting... But how will Nikon adapt their existing lenses to the new mount? I know, I know. With an adapter. But will that adapter contain the mechanical parts to drive aperture? Cos most Nikon lens still use mechanical aperture control. Only the newest lenses have electronic control. What about the millions of manual Nikon lenses? MILC guys just love playing with old manual lenses. And the new shiny Nikon FF MILC won't support them? LMFAO and still possible...
> ...


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## fullstop (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



Jester74 said:


> This thing made my day... Frankly, who the hell is gonna use it? This is just ridiculous. A MILC with a mirror? Nikon is *******....



it is exactly the same "elegant adapter solution" Sony is offering for legacy A-mount lenses. ;D


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## Jester74 (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

Nikon says:
"Soon, Nikon users will have two industry-leading camera systems to choose from, giving consumers the choice to enjoy the unique values that each system offers."

So there will be DSLRs with F-mount, and MILCs with the new mount. And some sort of compatibility. Not so bad. Not too good either. One thing is sure; if you want the new/right stuff you gotta cough up some lotsa dollars. But with Nikon, at least you may not be a guinea pig. Maybe. Oh, yeah...




fullstop said:


> Jester74 said:
> 
> 
> > This thing made my day... Frankly, who the hell is gonna use it? This is just ridiculous. A MILC with a mirror? Nikon is *******....
> ...


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## fullstop (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



Jester74 said:


> Nikon says:
> So there will be DSLRs with F-mount



yes ... for a few more years ;D 
Wonder how many NEW F-mount lenses they will bring over next 3 years. 

ofc it is the only course of action possible for Nikon. 
1. Bring FF MILC system 
2. bring F-mount adapter/s 
3. make lots of new Z-mount FF lenses
4. bring APS-C MILC system 
5. make lots of new Z-mount crop lenses
6. phase out crop DSLRs 
7. phase out FF DSLRs 
done. 

If they survive the process, they'll have 1 relative advantage compared to Canon: only 1 mount for both FF and crop system, whereas Canon will have 2 ... EF-M [APS-C] and EF-X [FF]


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



fullstop said:


> 6. phase out crop DSLRs
> 7. phase out FF DSLRs



If people are still buying their crop and FF DSLRs, do you believe Nikon (or Canon) would phase them out? That would be...stupid.


----------



## Jester74 (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

Sony will be phased out with their innovations... 


neuroanatomist said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > 6. phase out crop DSLRs
> ...


----------



## Kit. (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



Jester74 said:


> Sony will be phased out with their innovations...
> 
> 
> neuroanatomist said:
> ...


One day I was in Hong Kong and found a huge Sony shop nearby. I decided to go there and see if I can buy an HDD caddy for the DVD bay in my VAIO S.

And that was how I learned that Sony "phased out" its entire notebook business.


----------



## sdz (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



Talys said:


> sdz said:
> 
> 
> > BillB said:
> ...



This, although I believe Nikon's mirrorless FF camera remains vaporware until it ships or until Nikon gives a specific ship date.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



neuroanatomist said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > 6. phase out crop DSLRs
> ...



"IF". They won't. The also did not buy many more 1D film cameras after 2010.


----------



## melgross (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: ** Nikon announces FF mirrorless ** without many details*



lb said:


> Yep another Mirrorless camera out there and Canon sits back trying to
> *CATCH THE MICE WHILE THE ELEPHANTS ARE GALLOPING PAST*
> I believe at present Canon are so far behind designing our mirrorless generation camera that we all are hanging on and our bias remarks to other camera makers is showing our present concerns about the future of Canon cameras will our products turn into Vapourware never to be seen again



And I believe that you don’t know what you’re talking about.


----------



## denstore (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



fullstop said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > fullstop said:
> ...



Bad example. Film vs digital doesn’t compare well to DSLR vs Mirrorless. There’s little, if any, performance gain in image quality with a mirrorless camera. Neither is there any real economic advantages. 
Film was phased out because digital cameras showed advantages, first mostly in processing speed, then in economics, and only the last 5-10 years in image quality. And I’m still keeping my 1V for black & white photography. Yes, it’s big and heavy, and not thin. But in many ways better than any more modern camera I’ve owned.


----------



## melgross (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



sdz said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > sdz said:
> ...



No, that’s not what it means. So a phone manufacturer mentioning that they will come out with new phones are announcing vaporware? That’s ridiculous!

Vaporware, if you understood it, means a product that’s announced, in same fashion, by a company that doesn’t follow throug with a product, or does, years later.

So, last year, when Canon did that interview about mirrorless, and they said that, yes, they were working on FF frame mirrorless, it was vaporware? So, every company that talks about future products are talking about vaporware?

That makes no sense. Your definition is odd, to say the least.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



fullstop said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > fullstop said:
> ...



We know _you_ won’t. How often do you have to be reminded that you don’t speak for the market as a whole? DSLRs are still outselling MILCs by a large margin. Even if that ratio eventually flips (and that could take many years) and MILCs outsell DSLRs 2:1, manufacturers will continue selling DSLRs. 

As has been pointed out many times (most recently by denstore above), film to digital was a paradigm shift. DSLR to MILC is not.


----------



## melgross (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



neuroanatomist said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



As we can see, both canon and Nikon didn’t shelve their top film models until well after their sales were in the dump. I believe that Canon, just recently canned the last SLR.

They will stop selling DSLRs when they begin to lose money on them, and most of the last photographers who want them have ceased buying them.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



melgross said:


> They will stop selling DSLRs when they begin to lose money on them, and most of the last photographers who want them have ceased buying them.



Exactly. And if that takes a decade, it may well be that MILCs never replace DSLRs, because some future paradigm-shifting product (e.g. lightfield/computational cameras) kill them both at the same time.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

it does not matter if/how film vs. digital technically compares to DSLR vs. mirrorfree ... it is the market reaction that counts. If people get the same functionality in a smaller and/or more convenient and/or cheaper package, the old sh*t will die. Inevitably .


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



fullstop said:


> it does not matter if/how film vs. digital technically compares to DSLR vs. mirrorfree ... it is the market reaction that counts. If people get the same functionality in a smaller and/or more convenient and/or cheaper package, the old sh*t will die. Inevitably .



MILCs have been available for over a decade. FF MILCs have been available for 5 years. MILCs are still not outselling DSLRs.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



neuroanatomist said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > it does not matter if/how film vs. digital technically compares to DSLR vs. mirrorfree ... it is the market reaction that counts. If people get the same functionality in a smaller and/or more convenient and/or cheaper package, the old sh*t will die. Inevitably .
> ...




up to now CaNikon sold only FF mirrorslappers (70% of market). Give it another 2 years and we'll talk again. ;D


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



fullstop said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > fullstop said:
> ...



With only APS-C, Canon is #2 globally and now #1 domestically in MILC sales. Canon's M line has been on the market for six years, and they still sell more APS-C DSLRs than MILCs. 

The only thing that's in evitable in two years is that we'll both be two years older.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

as long as rebel stuff is cheaper than EOS M stuff, no wonder.


----------



## TAF (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



ahsanford said:


> Nikon is stringing this out as long as possible, but this is a big day nonetheless:
> 
> https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/25/official-press-release-nikons-develops-the-next-generation-full-frame-mirrorless-camera.aspx/
> 
> ...




Outstanding news! Now Canon can finally release their FF-ML with EF mount, and their advertising can be:

"Canon, where you don't need a kludgee adapter to use your existing lenses"


----------



## melgross (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



fullstop said:


> it does not matter if/how film vs. digital technically compares to DSLR vs. mirrorfree ... it is the market reaction that counts. If people get the same functionality in a smaller and/or more convenient and/or cheaper package, the old sh*t will die. Inevitably .



Eventually, yes. But it’s not just cheaper, smaller and lighter with the same functionality. It’s got to be better, more ergonomic, more convenient, higher quality IQ, etc.

My third sentence is what ******* film. It was said that size and weight would enter into it, but it never did. The same thing is true here. For every person who will buy an ILCM camera because it’s smaller and lighter, there will be someone who won’t want a smaller, lighter camera. I’m one of those.

I won’t buy a mirrorless unless I find something that performs better, or has higher IQ. If they have a mirrorless with the same mount, I’d be more likely to buy that, rather than a thinner body with an adapter. I have some great lenses, and I’m not giving them up. Adapters can be nice, but with four more mating surfaces (because the flanges themselves need to be attached to the body of the adapter) that have to be solid, parallel and precise. As someone who has shops with lathes and milling machines, I know firsthand what more surfaces can do to precision, and, as they say, it ain’t pretty.


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



denstore said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Fullstop has not been known for the success of his analogies. I can't think of a single one that has passed scrutiny and he usually ends up admitting it was a bad example.


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



fullstop said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > fullstop said:
> ...



And in all that time, new people entering the camera market, the people with no vested interest in any system have not been convinced of the superiority of mirrorless. Why not?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



fullstop said:


> as long as rebel stuff is cheaper than EOS M stuff, no wonder.



As long as across multiple threads, you keep stressing that one of the reasons mirrorless will overtake DSLRs is their being, to quote you exactly, "LESS EXPENSIVE," it's no wonder you lack credibility.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

its not my credibility. Which i dont care about anyways, at all. At least not here in a forum of Canon fanbois. 

It is a Canon and industry problem. Stupid Canon honestly thought, they could sell incredibly underspecced EOS M at 899. Body only. LOL. We, the customers taught them otherwise. Stupid Sony believes, lots of people will buy their GMaster bricks at 3k a pop. LOL. We, the customer will teach them, what the market is. 

Canon EOS M ... now? After the initrial epic fail and firesale @ 299 ... a success. Why? Simple: because it offers very compact, decent IQ, decent functionality, decent build quality, decent ergonomics cameras and lenses at decent, affordable prices. 

If Nikon and Canon manage the same for FF mirrorless, it wil be a runaway success. If not, then not. Sony is astuck at 15% market share and Fuji ist stuck at less than 10%, because ... their [LENS] prices are .. way too high for what they are. Simple, really simple. Customers are not stupid. Companies are, sometimes.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

The EOS M quickly rose to be the #2 best-selling domestic MILC at full price, outselling every other MILC except a two-gen-old heavily discounted Sony NEX, in the largest global market for mirrorless. 'Stupid Canon' made seriously smart money on that model. 

But we know that you've never been one to let facts influence your opinions.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

fact: Canon EOS M at 899 flopped. Massively. Globally. They had to sell the thing at 299. 
No amount of "smoke but no mirrors" can obfuscate that fact. 

I am really hoping for an EOS M equivalent FF Canon MILC system. As ONE option. Of course there will and can be more expensive and much LARGER options too, for those who prefer things Texas-size and love their bank accounts raided by Canon. No problem. As long as I get my compact, decent and affordable FF MILC system with Canon UI. It will carry me over the next 8+ years, until computational imaging with smartphone-sized devices rulez.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

In the other thread, I introduced you to my friend, Facts. Maybe one day you'll also get to meet his support staff, Data. Seems you've never met them, either. 

Oh, and in my _opinion_, the $999 compact FF MILC a fantasy. Or maybe it'll come out in 8+ years.


----------



## sdz (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



melgross said:


> sdz said:
> 
> 
> > melgross said:
> ...



My definition is fine. It works, It makes sense.


----------



## sdz (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



melgross said:


> sdz said:
> 
> 
> > BillB said:
> ...



What's odd here is your taking a mildly sarcastic post of mine and turning it into an event.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

Let's see what Grand Moff Tarkin has to say regarding the definition of vaporware...


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



neuroanatomist said:


> Let's see what Grand Moff Tarkin has to say regarding the definition of vaporware...


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



fullstop said:


> as long as rebel stuff is cheaper than EOS M stuff, no wonder.


It always happens, new tech that costs less to make, sells for a higher price. Once we see some real competition, prices will drop, until then, a Rebel is a better buy.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



melgross said:


> Adapters can be nice, but with four more mating surfaces (because the flanges themselves need to be attached to the body of the adapter) that have to be solid, parallel and precise.



It doesn’t need to be four. You could make the tube a unibody and have only two. Alternately you could ship on assembly. Alternately you could just take the needed tolerances for two faying surfaces and cut them in half. Either way, I’ve not seen any significant problems from poor parallelism tolerance; it’s an easy configuration.


----------



## takesome1 (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



fullstop said:


> its not my credibility. Which i dont care about anyways, at all. At least not here in a forum of Canon fanbois.
> 
> It is a Canon and industry problem. Stupid Canon honestly thought, they could sell incredibly underspecced EOS M at 899. Body only. LOL. We, the customers taught them otherwise. Stupid Sony believes, lots of people will buy their GMaster bricks at 3k a pop. LOL. We, the customer will teach them, what the market is.
> 
> ...



The EOS M cost so much less to make than the dSLR rebels that Canon made a ton of money at $299.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



3kramd5 said:


> Either way, I’ve not seen any significant problems from poor parallelism tolerance; it’s an easy configuration.



Perhaps you haven't, but have you actually looked? Uncle Rog has, and his conclusion was:

[quote author=Roger Cicala @ lensrentals.com]
I won’t bore you with another 20 graphs that look pretty much like these. We tried Leica to NEX and Leica to Micro 4/3 adapters, Canon to NEX, etc. We tried different lenses on one adapter. It didn’t really matter. None of them would be acceptable for testing. Not one.

...

In the examples above, though, center resolution is pretty much unchanged, it’s only when you get away from center that you start to see issues. So someone shooting portraits and centered subjects is unlikely to notice an issue. A landscape photographer, though, would likely see some problems along the edges of the image.

Putting a great lens on your camera via an adapter might still be better than an average native-mount lens. On the other hand, that great lens certainly wouldn’t be as good as it would be on its native-mount camera.
[/quote]

Read the article here:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/09/there-is-no-free-lunch-episode-763-lens-adapters/


AvTvM, I'd advise against clicking that link...you'll find Data on the other side of it, and I know that's anathema to you. You just go on ignoring facts and believing that an adapter is the best solution for a Canon FF MILC, that it won't cause any optical problems at all. Enjoy your free lunch. :


----------



## BillB (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



fullstop said:


> its not my credibility. Which i dont care about anyways, at all. At least not here in a forum of Canon fanbois.
> 
> It is a Canon and industry problem. Stupid Canon honestly thought, they could sell incredibly underspecced EOS M at 899. Body only. LOL. We, the customers taught them otherwise. Stupid Sony believes, lots of people will buy their GMaster bricks at 3k a pop. LOL. We, the customer will teach them, what the market is.
> 
> ...



The currency exchange rate may have contiributed to the "stupid" pricing decisions of that period. There were similar problems with lens prices at the time.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



neuroanatomist said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > Either way, I’ve not seen any significant problems from poor parallelism tolerance; it’s an easy configuration.
> ...



Read the article here:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/09/there-is-no-free-lunch-episode-763-lens-adapters/


AvTvM, I'd advise against clicking that link...you'll find Data on the other side of it, and I know that's anathema to you. You just go on ignoring facts and believing that an adapter is the best solution for a Canon FF MILC, that it won't cause any optical problems at all. Enjoy your free lunch. :
[/quote]

To be clear, I didn’t see any significant problems - in my own use. I did not compare adapted to non-adapted, nor collect laboratory data, much less set up test equipment using one. Rather I shot tens of thousands of images with adapted glass and a sole sample adapter, with acceptable results.

Similarly I’ve shot tens of thousands of images with what some lab testing would consider poor dynamic range, also with acceptable results.

I obviously accept that mounting a lens off-parallel will manifest in image degradation (increasing as the angle between grows), and maybe a large sample of adapters from a third party, poorly funded operation demonstrates a trend... about that poorly funded operation. But if nikon can make a camera and lens combination, I have confidence they can make a camera, lens, and adapter combination. Canon too. Sure it adds tolerance contributions, but it’s simple geometry, and the OEM is likely to do it well since they’d have nobody to point fingers at. 2-4 more interfaces isn’t all that many in the context of a camera and lens combination, where you may have 17 elements in the lens alone, the mount to lens, mount to body, body to sensor assembly, sensor assembly to semiconductor, etc.


----------



## BillB (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



takesome1 said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > its not my credibility. Which i dont care about anyways, at all. At least not here in a forum of Canon fanbois.
> ...



I doubt that production costs were that big a part of the original M's sales price. Canon's selling the M in the North American market seems to have been an afterthought. The real action was in Asia. The currency exchange rate was part of what was going on.


----------



## Aglet (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



3kramd5 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



To be clear, I didn’t see any significant problems - in my own use. I did not compare adapted to non-adapted, nor collect laboratory data, much less set up test equipment using one. Rather I shot tens of thousands of images with adapted glass and a sole sample adapter, with acceptable results.

Similarly I’ve shot tens of thousands of images with what some lab testing would consider poor dynamic range, also with acceptable results.

I obviously accept that mounting a lens off-parallel will manifest in image degradation (increasing as the angle between grows), and maybe a large sample of adapters from a third party, poorly funded operation demonstrates a trend... about that poorly funded operation. But if nikon can make a camera and lens combination, I have confidence they can make a camera, lens, and adapter combination. Canon too. Sure it adds tolerance contributions, but it’s simple geometry, and the OEM is likely to do it well since they’d have nobody to point fingers at. 2-4 more interfaces isn’t all that many in the context of a camera and lens combination, where you may have 12 elements in the lens alone, the mount to lens, mount to body, body to sensor assembly, sensor assembly to semiconductor, etc.
[/quote]

I didn't go back to read the LR blog on that topic but maybe it's that off-center image degradation with adapted lenses has more to do with differences in filter-stack refraction affecting off-center focus than mechanical misalignment.

Variation in the total amount of glass different Mfrs use in their filter stacks is considerable. 

You can sometimes see this in the different edge performance of different camera brands when used with the same model of 3rd-party lenses too.

Didn't early Speedbooster adapters have an issue with this too until they redesigned their optics to compensate for the filter stack on the host body?

Old film-era glass adapted to a digicam with a filter stack is also likely to have some degraded off center performance too. How much these effects occur probably depends on how close the rear lens element is to the sensor and the incident light angles.

So that's the optics.

As far as the mechanics go for making an F-mount to MILC adapter, it's not a big deal to make a tiny motor drive to turn those mechanical AF lenses and Nikon could probably come up with a clever way to drive the aperture lever too, if they want to.

Pellicle mirror in the adapter?..
Why even bother? It's likely more for the sake of a patent.
Why not just drive the lens focus using the same OOF data the sensor would obtain from a native lens? it may be a bit slower but it will still work. CDAF works well enough for non-action shooting. We may not get AF-P speeds out of adapted lenses but.. we never had that speed from them in their native mode anyway.

A well designed and precision mfd F to Z(?) adapter could work just fine.

Intro pricing of the system...
THAT is important.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



Aglet said:


> I didn't go back to read the LR blog on that topic but maybe it's that off-center image degradation with adapted lenses has more to do with differences in filter-stack refraction affecting off-center focus than mechanical misalignment.



The blog is about using adapters to mount lenses to their optical bench, not cameras. I don’t know when they started simulating filter stacks with optical glass. Maybe it was after this was published.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

i know the lensrentals article. always like rogers writeups, enjoy his style and respect his approach and data.

but ... in this test he only tested cross-brand mount adapters ... without identifying specific brands! i guess it was mainly metabones (whom i generally do not trust very much) and similar China-stuff. and it was for different makers, different systems mounts which physically/geometrically may have been quite different ... leica to Sony adapters etc. ... making it more difficult to achieve perfectly matching "mechanical/geometrical coupling" . 

i would like to see that test done today with original Canon EF-M/EF adapter and some canon EF wide angle lenses. with a good number of lenses and adapters to also get copy variation. (as Roger often does). 

until then i don't believe there is a noticeable, real-life relevant problem with the cheap, simple, solid, well made Canon EF/EF- M adapter or any future Canon EF / EF-X adapter. actually at more than 100 bucks for such a simple piece of metal it should be milled and manufactured to very good tolerances. i do think the Canon EF/EF-M adapter - bridging 2 fairly similar/well compatible mount geometries from one and the same the same company - is "really right". i expect the same gor their future FF adapter. 

overall definitely a much more "theoretical problem" forme (and millions of other customers!) compared to issues like 20% missing battery charge/shot reach because Canon marketing-nerfed/skimped on battery choice for a specific camera despite better battery readily available.


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

The camera looks to have a HUGE viewfinder

https://events.imaging.nikon.com/live/en/

But given all the blather they are putting out there, this thing had better be good or they will have egg on their face.


----------



## melgross (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



fullstop said:


> its not my credibility. Which i dont care about anyways, at all. At least not here in a forum of Canon fanbois.
> 
> It is a Canon and industry problem. Stupid Canon honestly thought, they could sell incredibly underspecced EOS M at 899. Body only. LOL. We, the customers taught them otherwise. Stupid Sony believes, lots of people will buy their GMaster bricks at 3k a pop. LOL. We, the customer will teach them, what the market is.
> 
> ...



What are you talking about? The M series is the fastest growing mirrorless lines from anybody. Also the biggest overall. 

So,Canon, and others discontinue models, and they sell for much less. What new about that? There are also specials. I don’t get your point.


----------



## melgross (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



sdz said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > sdz said:
> ...



It’s not fine. It doesn’t “work”, whatever that means. It’s unique to you and it makes no sense.

I don’t even know why I’m bothering. You don’t want to understand this.


----------



## melgross (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



sdz said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > sdz said:
> ...



No, you’re turning it into a “thing”. This is the first time you’re saying that you didn’t even mean it? Well, you could have short circuited this and said that in the beginning. It would have saved us all a lot of bother.


----------



## melgross (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



3kramd5 said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > Adapters can be nice, but with four more mating surfaces (because the flanges themselves need to be attached to the body of the adapter) that have to be solid, parallel and precise.
> ...



No you can’t. The way these need to be made is with a machined tube with two flanges screwed to it, often with shims. Loss of sharpness is a known problem with all of these ads Peter, even the $500 ones. The question is simply how much you will lose. Parallelism is the first to go. Back focus is the next. It happens to all of them.


----------



## melgross (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



3kramd5 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



To be clear, I didn’t see any significant problems - in my own use. I did not compare adapted to non-adapted, nor collect laboratory data, much less set up test equipment using one. Rather I shot tens of thousands of images with adapted glass and a sole sample adapter, with acceptable results.

Similarly I’ve shot tens of thousands of images with what some lab testing would consider poor dynamic range, also with acceptable results.

I obviously accept that mounting a lens off-parallel will manifest in image degradation (increasing as the angle between grows), and maybe a large sample of adapters from a third party, poorly funded operation demonstrates a trend... about that poorly funded operation. But if nikon can make a camera and lens combination, I have confidence they can make a camera, lens, and adapter combination. Canon too. Sure it adds tolerance contributions, but it’s simple geometry, and the OEM is likely to do it well since they’d have nobody to point fingers at. 2-4 more interfaces isn’t all that many in the context of a camera and lens combination, where you may have 12 elements in the lens alone, the mount to lens, mount to body, body to sensor assembly, sensor assembly to semiconductor, etc.
[/quote]

Some people have lower standards. What will be unacceptable to some will be fine to others. That doesn’t mean the quality loss isn’t there, just that some aren’t that interested in maximum quality. Certainly, if photos are presented in smaller sizes, it may not matter that much. But I’ve seen problems that are way too obvious. I’m hoping that Canon/s will be the best they can possibly make, and not cost as much as a lens, as some do.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



melgross said:


> 3kramd5 said:
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> 
> > melgross said:
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That’s the cheapest way to make them, but not the only way to make them. The bayonet geometry would be expensive, however you could machine a single piece body for the adapter with secondary operations to come in from the side to insert electronics (if desired). You could use additive manufacturing. Etc.

But fine. Say it’s four. Four more is not particularly alarming in a stack of 20. If everything stacks against you, sure you’ll be in bad shape. But realistically you’ll get something approximating a normal distribution across the multitude of interfaces which make up the optical path. If they can make a lens work, they can make a spacer work, and they could also potentially actuate the sensor to accommodate poor parallelism.



melgross said:


> Some people have lower standards. What will be unacceptable to some will be fine to others. That doesn’t mean the quality loss isn’t there, just that some aren’t that interested in maximum quality.



Ah, yes, the ‘you have low standards’ card. That must why I’ve spent upwards of $30,000 on glass in the last decade.

There is no such thing as maximum quality. We are talking here about statistical deviations. Adding 4 interfaces to 2 would be significant. Adding 4 interfaces to a typical camera and lens system is far less significant. In that situation, additive (worst/worst) tolerance analysis is not appropriate, especially in a scaled production environment.

Granted, you’re adding to two which have been deemed okay, but those two each have stackups of more than 4 interfaces.

A company like canon, or Nikon, is well positioned to make adapters with little discernible ill effect. They will most likely inspect them at the assembly level, where it’s “a thing” (as opposed to three or more parts) with some allowable profile tolerance from one end to the other (adapter without optics, so perpindicularity to the barrel axis is not a concern). If it’s out of spec, they’ll adjust it.


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## sdz (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



melgross said:


> sdz said:
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> > melgross said:
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Actually, I do understand it. Words do work. Consult the millions of pages written of language use in the 20th century to glean the meaning of that claim.

"Forget it, Steve, it's just an internet message board."


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## melgross (Jul 27, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



3kramd5 said:


> melgross said:
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> > 3kramd5 said:
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Understand that nobody makes them as a unibody. The material for the body is usually aluminum, and the mounts are usually chrome plated brass, or SS. 

I’m not plaging the quality card. It’s just what it is.


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## ashmadux (Jul 28, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

Canon:

*
"zzzzzzzz.......zzzzzzzzzzzz

...oh...just let them release it, we let our customers wait another year, will give our customers 80% of those features, and call it a day......errrhmmm........

.....zzzzzzzzzzz..."*



***

Still have faith in canon, just not that much


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 28, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

Understand I didn’t say people make them unibody. I merely said they need not be made with 4 interfaces. That was just a point in passing. More importantly, I have experienced no discernible loss in quality, and would not hesitate to use a canon EF to mirrorless adapter. YMMV.


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## kphoto99 (Jul 28, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

All this talk about how hard it is to make a good adapter and how it will degrade the image off centre.

I have never seen anybody complaining about Canon teleconverters, after all, an adapter is just a teleconverter without glass.


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## Aglet (Jul 28, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



kphoto99 said:


> All this talk about how hard it is to make a good adapter and how it will degrade the image off centre.
> 
> I have never seen anybody complaining about Canon teleconverters, after all, an adapter is just a teleconverter without glass.



BINGO!

And OEM branded adapters also exist in the form of Panasonic and Olympus items to adapt four-thirds lenses to MFT bodies.


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## slclick (Jul 28, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



kphoto99 said:


> All this talk about how hard it is to make a good adapter and how it will degrade the image off centre.
> 
> I have never seen anybody complaining about Canon teleconverters, after all, an adapter is just a teleconverter without glass.



You could look a bit deeper, like a Google search. Then you might find tens of thousands of remarks, reviews and posts about Canon TC's with not so glowing responses. Not because it's Canon per se but because EVERY TIME you use one there is degradation. To what extent? YMMV.


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## takesome1 (Jul 28, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



kphoto99 said:


> All this talk about how hard it is to make a good adapter and how it will degrade the image off centre.
> 
> I have never seen anybody complaining about Canon teleconverters, after all, an adapter is just a teleconverter without glass.



Umm No....

A teleconverter magnifies the image.

Whereas an adapter connects a lens to a body at the correct distance for the lens to work.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 28, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



takesome1 said:


> kphoto99 said:
> 
> 
> > All this talk about how hard it is to make a good adapter and how it will degrade the image off centre.
> ...



But how does the TC do that? It moves the lens forward by a prescribed distance and then magnifies a portion of the image circle, focusing it to the sensor plane. Like an adapter it has to maintain alignment between lens and the sensor, otherwise it would be magnifying a tilted image circle.

Teleconverters aren’t perfect. They lose sharpness and necessarily lose light. I’ve never experienced alignment problems (but again that’s in my own anecdotal usage, not from lab testing).


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## privatebydesign (Jul 28, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



3kramd5 said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > kphoto99 said:
> ...



But the point is TC's are only using the bit of the image circle that even Roger's testing shows minimal degradation.

Part of the reason they lose sharpness could well be due to alignment.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 28, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



privatebydesign said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > takesome1 said:
> ...



Exactly. The effect of a misalignment is most evident at the periphery of the image circle. A TC is similar to using an adapter with a lens for a larger format (e.g. FF lens adapted to APS-C body), you're effectively cropping away the problematic area of the image circle. 

In the context of adapting a FF lens to a FF camera, the issue becomes relevant.


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## takesome1 (Jul 28, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



neuroanatomist said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



So adding an extender can introduce a loss of IQ because of alignment issues.
The discussion was directed toward different manufactures and adapters.
But would it be relevant with Canon lenses and Canon bodies.
A curiosity would be to compare the 200-400 L using internal and external.

https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=764&Camera=979&Sample=0&FLI=5&API=1&LensComp=764&CameraComp=979&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=6&APIComp=1


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 28, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



privatebydesign said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > takesome1 said:
> ...



Perhaps so


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 28, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*



takesome1 said:


> So adding an extender can introduce a loss of IQ because of alignment issues.
> The discussion was directed toward different manufactures and adapters.
> But would it be relevant with Canon lenses and Canon bodies.



No, you've missed the point. The point was that misalignment affects the periphery of the image circle, and an extender magnifies the center of the image but the periphery is cropped away. An extender is similar to adapting a FF lens to a crop body. The issue manifests when adapting a FF lens to a FF body. 

(As a side note, telephoto designs generally aren't limited by the image circle, so they're also less likely to be affected by a misaligned adapter.)


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 28, 2018)

*Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N*

It should be possible to actuate a sensor and use test charts to bring things into alignment, much like AMFA. 

Nikon's camera is rumored to have IBIS. I haven't see one yet which moves in an out of plane or pivots, but doing so would not be revolutionary.


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