# EOS-M or New EF lens?



## Jixr (Sep 9, 2013)

Hi everyone, so here is the deal. (First post as well )

I'm fairly new to photography, ( at least seriously ) and I currently have a T3i with the kit lens, 40mm pancake, 50mm 1.8, a cheap tamron 75-300mm, and a 8mm fisheye.

I've been wanting something a little more wide than my 40 ( my most used lens ) and have been looking at a few used 20 - 35mm primes, but then I noticed in that price range I could get an EOS-M with the 20mm prime.


I really like the idea of the EOS-M, as its much more portable than my t3i and is something I could stuff in a pocket and take with me easily without loading up all my t3i gear and have a massive camera dangling around my neck.

Though there are a few things holding me back from going for it. (i've not yet tried one in person, but will see if a local store has a display unit )

- Autofocus, really that bad?
- battery life, reports are its pretty low.
- can you turn the screen off? i'd rather have the screen off and just point guess and click.
- how good is it in low light conditions?
- what about capturing moving objects? ( most reviews i've read say its great for stationary objects, but capturing moving people is a bit difficult )


What are your thoughts?
-


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## jebrady03 (Sep 9, 2013)

Many of your questions can be answered by using your T3i in a similar manner and mentally stepping up the results. AF tracking and speed should be better than the T3i using live view. So if you're okay or slightly disappointed with the T3i, you'll be happy with the M. Set your kit lens to 22mm and 4.0 aperture and 2 stops higher ISO than you would normally use in low light and know that your shutter speeds will be equal but the ISO will be much better (2+ stops). Shoot in live view with the screen turned in and you'll know how well that'll work with the M. 

Now personally, I really like the M+22 and find it to be a good low light camera for mostly stationary people at f2.


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## Random Orbits (Sep 9, 2013)

- AF is fine for stills but not good in servo because it is slow.
- Battery life is worse because the battery is smaller and it is driving the screen all the time, but that is a general disadvantage for this class of cameras. You could always get extra batteries.
- I don't think the screen could be turned off, and I don't see why you'd want to. There aren't many physical controls, and the touch screen is a great way to change the settings.
- It's OK in low light conditions, about what you'd expect for a Canon APS-C camera. The 22 f/2 helps a lot because you can use it wide open to minimize the ISO, which degrades the image.

In general, I don't see the M replacing a DSLR. It's a nice travel option because of its size, but it has signficant limitations.


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## Jixr (Sep 9, 2013)

good suggestion. 

I don't really care for the EOS-M to equal the photo quality of my T3i, 

I just want something as portable as my cell phone, but better picture quality than a phone or cheaper point and shoot. Mainly I want to use it when I go out, but if I'm going somewhere where I'll want good pictures i'll just bring my big rig.

and since the kit can be had for $350-400 new, its one of the cheapest mirrorless cams, and is probably better than most point and shoots in its price range.

Though all my camera gear is super budget ( got a BNIB T3i kit for $500 ) and except my fisheye, all my len's have been had for under $100

So i'm kind of nervous about buying some ( to me ) expensive new gear for a hobby.

Though If I do get one, I'll just buy from a place that has a good return policy.


Most of the reviews and youtube videos have been from professional photographers with big budgets. As much as I would like a 5d MK3 with L lens's, That won't happen. Its hard to take some reviews seriously when they don't keep budget shoppers like me in mind. 

I also have a motorcycle, and go out riding on day trips a bit, and it also seems like a good camera that I can toss in my backpack and go vs risking my entire gear on the road. 

I also have a photo-journal-blog thing, and it sounds so much easier to bring a smaller camera to certain locations than getting weird looks for going around with a camera on me, and a few times I've been asked to put it in a bag or not to take pictures ( which I respect their rules )

Also, does the EOS-M have a wireless remote feature? I have a thing for my iphone where I can use it as a IR remote, and would love to have that feature on a smaller cam ( stick it on my Joby and perfect )


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 9, 2013)

Jixr said:


> Also, does the EOS-M have a wireless remote feature? I have a thing for my iphone where I can use it as a IR remote, and would love to have that feature on a smaller cam ( stick it on my Joby and perfect )



Yes, the EOS M can be triggered by an IR remote such as the Canon RC-6.


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## jebrady03 (Sep 9, 2013)

the image quality will be equal to or better than your DSLR. I've taken my M on social gatherings at night and people are using their point and shoot or cell phones for pictures and they are having to use flash and I don't and my images are still better. I see that as a huge advantage. Based on the description of your use of the M, it sounds like a good option.


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## Jixr (Sep 9, 2013)

I fail to see how it could be better than my T3i, as they use the same sensor. ( unless i'm mistaken? )

Good to know about the flash, I don't own a hotshoe flash, and never use the flash on my T3i


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## sdsr (Sep 9, 2013)

Jixr said:


> - Autofocus, really that bad?
> - battery life, reports are its pretty low.
> - can you turn the screen off? i'd rather have the screen off and just point guess and click.
> - how good is it in low light conditions?
> ...



Autofocus - depends what you mean by "bad". After the firmware fix it focuses quickly and, most of the time, accurately. If you mostly photograph big things - i.e. anything bigger than the rather large focus points - that aren't moving, it's fine. If you need precise focus, especially selecting among small things, you need to magnify, which slows the process down quite a bit and isn't always accurate anyway. It's a slower process than your Rebel, which I would rather use any day as far as ergonomics are concerned. Plus, there's quite a delay between taking shots. Whether any of this matters to you I can't say, of course. You may find that the size of the camera makes up for it.

Battery life - shorter than your Rebel, certainly

Screen off - sorry, but "point, guess and click" when you can't even see where you're focusing sounds absurd to me, especially since accurate focus is as important as anything else in taking a photo. But if you don't care how any particular photo turns out and like the element of surprise, go for it. (Actually, I'm not sure if you can use it that way - have never tried.)

low light - the image quality is at least as good as your Rebel (I suspect better, but I sold my Rebel before buying an M so I've not done any direct comparisons). In my experience it has exactly the same focus performance as in daylight. Overall, I suspect you won't find anything nearly as good for use in low light in a camera at or near this size/price.

moving objects - haven't a clue; haven't tried using mine for that.


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## paul13walnut5 (Sep 9, 2013)

Jixr said:


> I fail to see how it could be better than my T3i, as they use the same sensor. ( unless i'm mistaken? )



Not mistaken at all. Different image processor though, digic 5 versus digic 4. Worth about a stop of difference in terms of noise, image for image, but all other things aren't equal. Different beasts for different applications.

AF is good for class. Wide flexizone mode +bin icon makes it fairly intelligent and pretty quick.


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## Jixr (Sep 9, 2013)

as far as turning the screen off, I was hoping that like the DSLR's you can turn live view off and speed up the shutter action.

I guess really I just need to try one out in a store ( though most of the time they either don't work or have a dead battery, etc. ( and probably won't have the 22mm prime version on display )

I also figure If I get one later on I can always get the EF adaptor, and have one of my bigger lens's on it and not have to hot swap lens's so often. ( but on the adaptor, wouldn't the adaptor also increase the focal distance of a lens since its further away from the sensor? ) 


I'm also hesitant to buy since the new version will be ( supposively ) announced soon. But I do have a feeling they won't be as cheap as the current model is now. ( and I don't see a point in a mirrorless that cost equal or more to a full sized DSLR ) 

I also found a used EOS-M on the local craigslist with the 22mm prime for $200, but it has a small crack in the screen.

might check it out, since If I get one it will basically be a beater camera. ( I doubt canon would make these screens replaceable due to their low price )


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 9, 2013)

paul13walnut5 said:


> Jixr said:
> 
> 
> > I fail to see how it could be better than my T3i, as they use the same sensor. ( unless i'm mistaken? )
> ...


They're both 18 MP sensors, so they must be the same? The 1D X is an 18 MP camera, I wonder if that's the same sensor? :

Seriously, though - the T3i and EOS M do *not* use the same sensor, although the EOS M and the T*4*i do use the same sensor (as do the SL1 and T5i, and that sensor is different from the one in the M and T4i).

How are they different? The most obvious way is that the EOS M and T4i have Hybrid CMOS AF, meaning some pixels on the image sensor are dedicated to phase detect AF (relatively sparse, compared to the DPAF of the 70D, and covering a more restricted area than the Hybrid CMOS II sensor in the SL1 and T5i). But I also suspeect the OLPF (aka AA filter) is slightly weaker on the M/T4i compared to the T3i (for example, the former appears slghtly sharper in TDP's ISO 12233 crops).


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## comsense (Sep 9, 2013)

The EOS M ver 1 does not replace SLR. So if money is no issue, go ahead and buy one. Its good for anything not moving. OTOH, if money is limited, it would serve you better to save it for some good glass. 
Even if you assume it is as good as the most optimistic view here, a better glass would have more impact on your photos.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 9, 2013)

comsense said:


> Even if you assume it is as good as the most optimistic view here, a better glass would have more impact on your photos.



Quite true. But the M + 22 is a lot smaller, which the OP also mentions being important. Having a good camera that you bring along because it's small enough will have more impact on your photos than the larger camera with better glass that you leave at home because it's too big. 

To the OP - what's your budget for this purchase?


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## Jixr (Sep 9, 2013)

Well,

I went to check out my local camera shop ( the biggest camera shop in Austin Tx ), asked to look at the EOS-M, the guy told me they didn't have any except for a used one.
Asking why not, he said simply they were DOA and have only sold 3 in the last year, and returned the rest back to canon.

My budget is $400 MAX, really would like to keep it under $350 if possible, he pointed me to a Nikon S1. Spec wise its not as good. but for $350 it has what I need.

What i need in order of importance.
- portable, something that can easily go in a back pocket, or toss in a bag. ( something to bring with me on motorcycle trips, every day walk around etc. ) ( otherwise I would just go pick up one of the several T2i's on the local CL for $200 )
- budget, under $400 new ( its gonna be a beater camera, so if It breaks I don't want to be out tons to replace it ) 
- Quality: faster and better than a P&S or phone, but not expecting to match my T3i
- Wide angle ( preferably a fast prime ) with decent low light performance.

I'm definately looking to use it as a ( best camera is the one you have on you ) kinda thing. Something I can use to take a few pictures, then toss in my bag or pocket and continue on my way.

Don't care for: Flash, touchscreen, viewfinder, video performance, or sticking with a certain brand.


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## sdsr (Sep 9, 2013)

Jixr said:


> as far as turning the screen off, I was hoping that like the DSLR's you can turn live view off and speed up the shutter action.



If you turn live view off on a DSLR you use the viewfinder to focus; if you turned off the screen on an M, you would see nothing at all - there's no viewfinder, so you would, in one sense, be shooting in the dark.... You might as well close both eyes while you're at it!


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## Don Haines (Sep 9, 2013)

I say be patient.... There is a strong rumor that canon will announce a pair of eos-m cameras sometime in September, one low end and one high end... If the high end one has the dual pixel technology of the 70D, this would make a VERY capable Eos-M camera as it should address almost all of the complaints of the original EOS-M.


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## Random Orbits (Sep 9, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> I say be patient.... There is a strong rumor that canon will announce a pair of eos-m cameras sometime in September, one low end and one high end... If the high end one has the dual pixel technology of the 70D, this would make a VERY capable Eos-M camera as it should address almost all of the complaints of the original EOS-M.



Might take a while for the price to drop to 400 tho...


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## BL (Sep 9, 2013)

$400? Are you kidding?

This is Canon we're talking about... ;D

Unless of course we're assuming launch disaster mkII


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## Random Orbits (Sep 9, 2013)

BL said:


> $400? Are you kidding?
> 
> This is Canon we're talking about... ;D
> 
> Unless of course we're assuming launch disaster mkII



Give it 2 years. Consumer models are updated much more frequently, even if they don't bring much additional functionality (i.e. T5i vs. T4i).


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## kjay27 (Sep 10, 2013)

Using your criteria, I'd recommend a prosumer type camera that's more easily pocketable than the eos-m. Most of them are capable of having their shutter speed, aperture, zoom, and ISO set similar to what you would do on a dslr or mirrorless camera, and consequently you'd be better prepared to upgrade to a dslr or mirrorless when you are financially more able to do that in the future.


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## GmwDarkroom (Sep 10, 2013)

Jixr said:


> I just want something as portable as my cell phone, but better picture quality than a phone or cheaper point and shoot. Mainly I want to use it when I go out, but if I'm going somewhere where I'll want good pictures i'll just bring my big rig.


I haven't actually tried to put an EOS M with a lens in my pocket, but from what I've seen in person I'd think that with the lens attached the M is not going to fit in any non-cargo pocket.

I may get pounced on for this, but have you considered the S95/S100/S110/S120 line for your needs or even another maker's compact? I got my wife an S95 about a year ago which I found on the outlet table at Crutchfield for less than $200. It takes pictures far better quality than its size-class peers. Shoots in RAW and the S100/S110/S120 have CMOS, not CCD, sensors, so I'm guessing the quality is even better. I regularly grab it for the same situations where I don't want to cart my DSLR around.

Down side is that it's fixed lens and ISO noise creeps in sooner. However it fits your pocket requirements far better than an EOS M.


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## bholliman (Sep 10, 2013)

GmwDarkroom said:


> have you considered the S95/S100/S110/S120 line for your needs or even another maker's compact? I got my wife an S95 about a year ago which I found on the outlet table at Crutchfield for less than $200. It takes pictures far better quality than its size-class peers. Shoots in RAW and the S100/S110/S120 have CMOS, not CCD, sensors, so I'm guessing the quality is even better. I regularly grab it for the same situations where I don't want to cart my DSLR around.
> 
> Down side is that it's fixed lens and ISO noise creeps in sooner. However it fits your pocket requirements far better than an EOS M.



Agreed, the Sxxx series is much more pocketable than the EOS-M. Roughly 1/2 the size of than the M+22/2. The S cameras do have very good image quality for a P&S and being RAW capable is a plus. However, the sensor is much smaller than the M's APS-C sensor:

Size Width	Length 
APC-C 22.20 14.80 
S100 7.60 5.70 

Sxxx IQ is pretty good but cannot compare with what you get from the EOS-M. 

So, the decision depends on how important size and pocket-ability is vs. IQ. I went the IQ route by keeping the M and selling my S100. For the OP and others the decision may be different.


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## GmwDarkroom (Sep 10, 2013)

bholliman said:


> Sxxx IQ is pretty good but cannot compare with what you get from the EOS-M.


No arguments on that at all.

I just zeroed in on the OP desire for something pocket-able and that he wasn't so much after the same IQ as his DSLR. An EOS M is a purse or bag camera, not a pocket camera.


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## imasquare (Sep 11, 2013)

GmwDarkroom said:


> bholliman said:
> 
> 
> > Sxxx IQ is pretty good but cannot compare with what you get from the EOS-M.
> ...



It depends on pocket size, it fits nicely in my puffer jacket or motorcycle jacket pockets. When I'm out motorcycling it's much easier to whip the M+22 out of my pocket than to unbuckle the saddle bags and whip out the DSLR. I can fit the 18-55 in my other jacket pocket if needed, it's a bit troublesome to have M+18-55 in my pocket, getting it out is tricky.

Sometimes wish I had the new SX280HS, cheaper than M and comes with GPS/WiFi. However the IQ and sheer fun of the 22mm prime make it a joy to use.


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## bholliman (Sep 11, 2013)

imasquare said:


> GmwDarkroom said:
> 
> 
> > bholliman said:
> ...



I agree, the M is not a jeans front pocket camera. But, as Imasquare pointed out it fits fine in a jacket pocket. Where I live we wear jackets 5-6 months out of the year so its very pocket-able in those months. 

I normally carry mine in a Dashport 20 belt pack, which works very well.


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## bholliman (Sep 11, 2013)

imasquare said:


> GmwDarkroom said:
> 
> 
> > I just zeroed in on the OP desire for something pocket-able and that he wasn't so much after the same IQ as his DSLR. An EOS M is a purse or bag camera, not a pocket camera.
> ...



I agree, the M is not a jeans front pocket camera. At least not unless you wear extremely loose/baggy jeans.  But, as Imasquare pointed out it fits fine in a jacket pocket. Where I live we wear jackets 5-6 months out of the year so its very pocket-able in those months. 

I normally carry mine in a Dashport 20 belt pack, which works very well.


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## imasquare (Sep 11, 2013)

Although it's hard to quantify it or qualify it, would anyone else agree that the EOS-M is more 'fun' than the Sxxx models and a higher keep rate? I'd probably say it's more 'fun' to use than my DSLRs as well.


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## paul13walnut5 (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm generally dissatisified with my powershot sx230 for anything other than cursory snaps.

If I go in too close with the crop it's ghastly.

EOS M is much more fun and results much more satisfying.

On the flipside my girlfriends IXUS 107 is a joy to use, simple, reliable, great images within context. I think the powershot sx230 is trying to be too many things, and the interface is horrific. It lives in my glove box in case of a smash, or wee grabbed pics along the way.

Other than that my powershot experience dates back to the s40, or my camera retail days. 

Can vouch that the M with 22 lens is terrific fun.


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## Jixr (Sep 11, 2013)

Sorry, let me clear up my definition of "pocketable" 

Yes nearly all mirrorless cameras won't fit in your typical jean front pocket, but if I can stuff it in my back pocket or my often worn cargo shorts pockets ( with or without the lens attached ) then its will work for me. ( though i'll probably put a clip on it so I can just clip it to my belt or whatever when i'm out.

Mainly I want something I can carry around with me, as I often see things where I wish I had a camera, and my phone just won't cut it. ( for example a car crash today with the car on fire ) ( no one was in the car and police were on the scene but still cool to see )

and just to also clear up I do have a T3i with 5 len's and a battery pack, so basically anything smaller than that will be good for me.

I'm still looking at a nikon s1, as its cheap and has pretty good reviews, I originally was very interested in the M but the more I look at it I don't think its for me ( unless I can find a used one cheap ) as i'm not really looking at a DSLR picture quality level, but just a small portable camera in general. Tomorrow I'm going to go back to the camera shop and talk to a different sales guy and see what he recomends for my needs. If he points me to the same camera as the other guy I feel comfortable with buying it. ( and i'll bring my own SD card so I can take the pictures home to check out the quality on my computer.


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## bholliman (Sep 12, 2013)

Jixr said:


> I do have a T3i with 5 len's and a battery pack, so basically anything smaller than that will be good for me.
> 
> I originally was very interested in the M but the more I look at it I don't think its for me ( unless I can find a used one cheap ).



The reason I bought an M instead of a Sony, Olympus, Fuji or Nikon mirrorless camera was computability with my EF lenses via a Canon adapter. I normally use mine with the EF-M 22/2 lens, but occasionally use my 50 1.4 (portraits) or 70-200 (added reach over my full frame 6D). New M prices are still really good vs. competing brands as well as you can get kits for $349 or $399 from B&H and others.

Had I been just looking at mirrorless camera systems independent of my Canon DSLR equipment, I may have made a different choice. But, given the compatability, features and price, the EOS-M was the best option for me.


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## Jixr (Sep 12, 2013)

yeah, but add in the cost of the EF adaptor thats $150 for the canon branded one, and since i'm already using a crop body, don't see the point of choosing my T3i over an M with the same lens, as nearly adding on any EF lens ( even the 40mm pancacke ) will basically require you have a bag or strap or something to carry it around in. Which is fine, but not what i'm looking for.

( not to mention that using an EF lens is even slower than the M lens's )


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## bholliman (Sep 12, 2013)

Jixr said:


> yeah, but add in the cost of the EF adaptor thats $150 for the canon branded one, and since i'm already using a crop body, don't see the point of choosing my T3i over an M with the same lens, as nearly adding on any EF lens ( even the 40mm pancacke ) will basically require you have a bag or strap or something to carry it around in. Which is fine, but not what i'm looking for.
> 
> ( not to mention that using an EF lens is even slower than the M lens's )



True, less of an advantage since your DSLR is APS-C. But, the M is still pretty portable (much smaller than your T3i) with the 40 pancake and smaller EF primes like the 50 1.4.

I only paid $100 for my Canon adapter on eBay.


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## Jixr (Sep 16, 2013)

I found something that fits all my needs, and kind of hit me by surprise.

- small
- under $400, cheap enough to not get too upset if it breaks.
- Pocketable enough for motorcycle trips
- durable enough to carry around daily
- pictures better than camera phones
- simple
- wide angle

and the answer was... a GoPro

turns out its perfect for me. Sure the image quality of everything you all suggested was better, but as far as the portability and durability of the thing, it is perfect.

Using the single shot picture mode kinda sucks ( probably a good 1-2 seconds after pressing the shutter button will it snap a picture ( 12mp ), but set it on the burst mode ( up to 30fps ) and just select the best one of the group.

Sure there is no manual settings aside from view angle ( wide or normal ) and image size, but it actually preforms quite well for something intended to take vidoes. Still better than most phones, and adds the benifit of video, waterproofing, several mounting options, and all that.

The lack of Screen is one less thing to break, but you can tether your phone and use it as a viewfinder ( though with a good 3-4 second delay )

Thanks for all your suggestions though! Hopefully it will work out.
I have a 15 day return policy on it, but so far i'm loving it. I'll run it through its paces before I decide on keeping it or not.


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## fxk (Sep 19, 2013)

If you want wide, buy a lens that works on your EOS. The EOS M + 22 is a nice setup, but unless you NEED a small body, buy the lens. 

If you like wide, try the Sigma "Popeye" 12-22. Very cool rectilinear W-I-D-E lens that can work on an M or a FF body if you want to go that way. 12mm on a FF sensor is really wide.


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