# The Canon EOS R6 is still scheduled to be announced in May [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 22, 2020)

> I have been told that Canon still plans to announce the Canon EOS R6 sometime in May, and we can also expect the Canon EOS R5 to also be officially announced in May.
> The availability for each camera is reportedly still up in the air.
> I’ve also seen some reports around the web comparing the Canon EOS R6 to the Canon EOS-1D X Mark III just because the sensor resolution is the same. The EOS R6 will NOT use the same sensor as the EOS-1D X Mark III.
> The EOS R6 will be a big step down from the EOS R5, so please temper those expectations. It’ll still be a great camera, but it’s targetted at a very different user than the EOS R5 and EOS-1D X Mark III.
> ...



Continue reading...


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## bbasiaga (Apr 22, 2020)

If I come through this COVID crisis and still have a job, I'm really thinking of one of these cameras. I'm thinking the R5 might be too expensive at first, but this could be a nice transition in to the R series. 

Start loading us up on rumors in this space Canon Rumors Guy! The low rent district needs some love. Lol. 

Brian


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## Maximilian (Apr 22, 2020)

I still wonder what performance that 20 MP sensor will deliver...
If it's not so well at high ISO this body still gets me puzzeled.


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

I guess that it will be more like the Panasonic S1
e.g. it can read the whole sensor at 4k30p, but not at 4k60p, where it will be line-skipping and there will be a cropped mode. It might not have AF enabled in 1080p120fps mode.
And might be more like the EOS R, 8-bit internal and 10-bit external with Canon Log. I wonder if it will get two UHS-II SD card slots, as CFExpress it not justified in this case. Looks like it is targeted more at the A7III/A7IV, maybe costing half as much as the R5, whatever that will be.
Keeping the same LP-E6NH battery seems logical, anything less seems too much of a downgrade.


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## Warrenl (Apr 22, 2020)

Time to sell my R


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## Joules (Apr 22, 2020)

Well if it isn't the 1DX III sensor, it has to be the 1DX II one, right? But if they had to reuse a sensor, why not just the 5D IV one? That already has the redesigned micro lenses and everything.


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## canonnews (Apr 22, 2020)

padam said:


> I guess that it will be more like the Panasonic S1
> e.g. it can read the whole sensor at 4k30p, but not at 4k60p, where it will be line-skipping and there will be a cropped mode. It might not have AF enabled in 1080p120fps mode.
> And might be more like the EOS R, 8-bit internal and 10-bit external with Canon Log. I wonder if it will get two UHS-II SD card slots, as CFExpress it not justified in this case. Looks like it is targeted more at the A7III/A7IV
> Keeping the same LP-E6NH battery seems logical, anything less seems too much of a downgrade.


line skipping doesn't work too well on a full width 20MP sensor for 4K .. 

it's probably downsampled from 5.4K to 4K - DIGIC X certainly has the horses for that.


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## Framehungry (Apr 22, 2020)

so like the R6 is a better R ?


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## BillB (Apr 22, 2020)

Joules said:


> Well if it isn't the 1DX III sensor, it has to be the 1DX II one, right? But if they had to reuse a sensor, why not just the 5D IV one? That already has the redesigned micro lenses and everything.


My guess is that part of the point of the 20mp sensor is to make it easier to get high fps rates, both for stills and video.


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## deanmejos (Apr 22, 2020)

I just wanna know the price already!

Dual SD cards seem logical but I'm guessing it's UHS-I and UHS-II and not both UHS-II.


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## Danglin52 (Apr 22, 2020)

I agree, I don't see where this camera fits in the Canon lineup UNLESS the target is for great low light performance and / or video. The 20mp makes no sense to me after seeing the 32mp APS-C sensors in the 90d & M6 II. I also don't see why they would repurpose an old sensor design in the new R body line at this point. I made sense with the R & RP as transitional cameras, but not in the "new" R family. Be interesting to see if there some unique aspect of this camera or if was just designed to hit a price point. Time will tell.


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## The3o5FlyGuy (Apr 22, 2020)

Honestly, those specifications are more than good enough for me. I dont do video but if I did, 4k would be the limit my computer could handle. The speed is what I want at 12 frames per second, and I love that its 20mp because I'm hoping that'll be Canons lowlight beast.


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## lglass12189 (Apr 22, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I agree, I don't see where this camera fits in the Canon lineup UNLESS the target is for great low light performance and / or video. The 20mp makes no sense to me after seeing the 32mp APS-C sensors in the 90d & M6 II.


It may fit if the "R" and "RP" disappear in the future


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## nickstan (Apr 22, 2020)

Maximilian said:


> I still wonder what performance that 20 MP sensor will deliver...
> If it's not so well at high ISO this body still gets me puzzeled.


Usually higher megapixels doesn't do well with higher iso, more pixels to introduce noise to, the 6D is only 20mp and I have been able to deliver photos to clients at 12k and higher iso


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## Sharlin (Apr 22, 2020)

Funny how a camera with 4K60 and 12/20fps stills is suddenly ”a big step down from [another Canon non-1D body]”  Who would’ve believed that even six months ago?


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## PureClassA (Apr 22, 2020)

lglass12189 said:


> It may fit if the "R" and "RP" disappear in the future


Canon has stated that the R and RP were more-or-less place holders. Just to get a MILC out into the market in order to start building up a library of glass. Doesn't seem like we will see second iterations of those bodies/models


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## Maximilian (Apr 22, 2020)

nickstan said:


> Usually higher megapixels doesn't do well with higher iso, more pixels to introduce noise to, the 6D is only 20mp and I have been able to deliver photos to clients at 12k and higher iso


That's my thought. But it would be *meh* if they'd just reuse that old sensor.
Especially as they already use the 6D2 sensor in the RP.



PureClassA said:


> It's almost 100% certainty it's the exact same sensor from the 1DX3 ...but with IBIS


This is my real hope but I'd guess they'd use the older 1DX2 sensor to leave that new one especially to the 1DX3.
(although some say that the 1DX2 sensor is better at high ISO  )


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## Chaitanya (Apr 22, 2020)

So another paper launch? also given its price range dual SD slots(uhs-ii) should be fine.


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## PureClassA (Apr 22, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I agree, I don't see where this camera fits in the Canon lineup UNLESS the target is for great low light performance and / or video. The 20mp makes no sense to me after seeing the 32mp APS-C sensors in the 90d & M6 II. I also don't see why they would repurpose an old sensor design in the new R body line at this point. I made sense with the R & RP as transitional cameras, but not in the "new" R family. Be interesting to see if there some unique aspect of this camera or if was just designed to hit a price point. Time will tell.


The sensor isn't really old. It's what they just made for the brand new 1DX3, but now with an IBIS motor strapped to it in a MILC body. And for the semi-entry-level full frame space it will occupy, that works out pretty darn well. 20MP is plenty for 90% of the stuff out there. I use my 1DX2 more than any other camera I have because the sensor performs so well in nearly any situation (I'm deliberately excluding the rest of the camera feature set for obvious reasons).

All that said, the yet unknown pricing of this camera will determine where this fits. If they price it like a 6D and use it to go after the Sony A7, then $1500-1800. But then again, with a smaller body, no top-down screen, etc... Canon may be targeting a VERY aggressive price point at something like $999 and just retire the RP right now altogether. I think the EOS R sticks around for a bit longer to fill the $1800 price rage if that becomes the case. But Canon I suspect would look to replace that next as the EOS R would be the last man standing without IBIS.


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## PureClassA (Apr 22, 2020)

Maximilian said:


> This is my real hope but I'd guess they'd use the older 1DX2 sensor to leave that new one especially to the 1DX3.



No that would cost too much money. If you want to minimize the costs and maximize profit margins in your manufacturing process, then you use the same parts in as many devices as possible. The 1DX3 is what it is not because of it's sensor. It's everything else around the sensor. Particularly it's body, power, and insanity level AF system, which the R6 wont have anything like.


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## BillB (Apr 22, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> No that would cost too much money. If you want to minimize the costs and maximize profit margins in your manufacturing process, then you use the same parts in as many devices as possible. The 1DX3 is what it is not because of it's sensor. It's everything else around the sensor. Particularly it's body, power, and insanity level AF system, which the R6 wont have anything like.


The original post says that the R6 will not use the sensor in the 1DXIII.


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## PureClassA (Apr 22, 2020)

BillB said:


> The original post says that the R6 will not use the sensor in the 1DXIII.


Whoops!! Apparently I read right over that. Well then that info is brand new as of this post. That's very interesting then. I can't image what the big difference would be that Canon would make another 20MP sensor on top the one they are already making now. 

I wonder if perhaps IBIS necessitates this? Otherwise I can't imagine what difference in performance ( if any at all) in the sensor itself there will be between the two...

Or perhaps it's just classified as a new sensor because of IBIS? Someone with more insight than me on that one is gonna have to chime in.


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## victorshikhman (Apr 22, 2020)

Feels like some people are a bit confused about the lineup. The R5 is clearly going to be the old 5D series, with initial pricing in the $3500 range. The R6 will take the 6D's $2000 position. With all these great cameras coming, looks like the R might be down to $1200k in time for next holiday season, maybe down to $1k refurb. And the RP could come down to $750, the old Rebel territory. That's a great lineup with multiple entry points for full frame.


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## herein2020 (Apr 22, 2020)

This is the first time I have read that it will not use the 1DX III sensor, so you are telling me this is another brand new sensor? The R6 is more exciting to me than the R5 because it looks like the perfect replacement for my GH5 since I'm still not sold on an EVF for photography and my 5DIV still works great for that. Can't wait to see the full specs of the R6.


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## Maximilian (Apr 22, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> No that would cost too much money. If you want to minimize the costs and maximize profit margins in your manufacturing process, then you use the same parts in as many devices as possible. The 1DX3 is what it is not because of it's sensor. It's everything else around the sensor. Particularly it's body, power, and insanity level AF system, which the R6 wont have anything like.


Canon was always "special" in the past, separating products and product lines by hardware, even if a reasonable R&D cost calculation would recommend a reuse of one part (sensor) in a parallel product line (not to mix up with reuse of old parts).
But as I said I hope for a good, modern sensor because I cannot belive in any old reuse - even if the R6 would become a low price successor of the RP (which I also don't believe).


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## motofotog (Apr 22, 2020)

I am not much worried of it’s video features, hope it has good High ISO performance and similar AF features like R5 with less AF points.


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## Fischer (Apr 22, 2020)

Great news as it increases the chance that they are also pushing ahead with the promissed high mp R model.


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## Bob Howland (Apr 22, 2020)

Outstanding! I for one can't make a good decision about buying an R5 without knowing what the R6 is.


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## herein2020 (Apr 22, 2020)

It would be awesome if Canon's "6D replacement" was still a S1/GH5/A7S killer; talk about blowing the competition out of the water. That 20MP sensor is the first clue. Canon has to know that is bad optics (no pun intended) unless it turns out to be yet another amazing hybrid shooter slotted right below the R5. Who needs a dedicated video body when Canon's hybrid shooters blow other makers video bodies out of the water?

If the specs match my expectations I don't see this camera being less than $2400.00 just like I still predict the R5 will be at least $3999.00. I can see them keeping around the RP as the entry level RF mount body just because it is so cheap. Of course in that line up the RP is the real 6D replacement (lowest cost FF, single card slot, same 26.2MP resolution), and the R6 is really their S1/GH5/A7S killer that no one saw coming, and of course the R5 is the 5D replacement.


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## PureClassA (Apr 22, 2020)

victorshikhman said:


> The R6 will take the 6D's $2000 position.


 I was thinking that too, but the more I look at the RP, the more the R6 sounds just like it. No top screen. Only dials. Small body. Entry build quality. Sounds exactly like an RP. This is looking more and more like a $999 RP replacement.


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## deanmejos (Apr 22, 2020)

My thoughts on the sensor:
1DX III sensor, different (inferior) low-pass filter or an updated 1DX II sensor.


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

canonnews said:


> line skipping doesn't work too well on a full width 20MP sensor for 4K ..
> 
> it's probably downsampled from 5.4K to 4K - DIGIC X certainly has the horses for that.


I guess in that case it could have 4k60p only in crop mode like the Panasonic S1 (since the rumor does not say 4k60p FF)
We can safely assume that it is a slower sensor than the 1DXIII so it won't have the same capabilities.
If it shoots full sensor FF 4k30p it is still has more than the old 1DXII
And it might not have Digic X either, since it will be smaller and much cheaper than the R5.


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## herein2020 (Apr 22, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I was thinking that too, but the more I look at the RP, the more the R6 sounds just like it. No top screen. Only dials. Small body. Entry build quality. Sounds exactly like an RP. This is looking more and more like a $999 RP replacement.


But it has dual card slots, a 20MP sensor that everyone is already complaining about and 4K60 which is unheard of from an entry level camera. Even the RP has a 26MP sensor as did the 6D. When people want to move up from whatever they have to entry level FF, they will pixel peep and immediately complain about the sensor resolution; especially since it is nearly guaranteed that their current gear if they have any has more than 20MP, and how many entry level shooters care about dual card slots?

That 20MP sensor however is great for video, you don't need a top display for video, and you don't care about the EVF for video. Even the 4K60FPS limit sounds about right to protect the R5's sales. I see absolutely no other reason why Canon would choose a 20MP sensor when they have 26MP sensors just laying around from other cameras if it weren't for video. They could have just added a card slot to the RP called it Mark II and resold it as the R6....instead they went with a 20MP sensor.


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## slclick (Apr 22, 2020)

FF Vlogger body? The RF line would have that very popular niche filled. Next! (onto something a bit more exciting...)

*never mind, first off, you would never need two card slots....


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## Joel C (Apr 22, 2020)

It seemed the R6 was targeted at video initially. That seems to not be the case now. If canon makes a camera with another different battery... Where is the XC rf mount camera???


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> But it has dual card slots, a 20MP sensor that everyone is already complaining about and 4K60 which is unheard of from an entry level camera. Even the RP has a 26MP sensor as did the 6D. When people want to move up from whatever they have to entry level FF, they will pixel peep and immediately complain about the sensor resolution; especially since it is nearly guaranteed that their current gear if they have any has more than 20MP, and how many entry level shooters care about dual card slots?


Just to clarify once again, in no way this camera is replacing an EOS RP (or the EOS R), it will cost over double the RP (it will be over 2000$, the RP is more like 1000$ now) and the EOS R is also going to be a good deal less than this with the permanent discount.

It is a lower cost camera that still has higher end features like the high framerate, better video, IBIS and dual card slots while saving on other things like the LCD or the electronic viewfinder, probably 8-bit internal codecs, and it won't be as rigid as an EOS R or R5.


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## Tom W (Apr 22, 2020)

The IBIS and video capability are positives, but I don't think this would pry the R out of my stable. The R5 would though!


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## Treyarnon (Apr 22, 2020)

Assuming this *rumour* is accurate....
Does anyone know why Canon might design two different 20MP FF sensors at practically the same time? What will one sensor do that the other cannot I wonder?
I do have to say - if Canon are designing a new sensor specifically for the R6 (rather than using an existing part), I am rather puzzelled why go for 20MP?? Upper 20's to lower 30's would make much more sense to me.


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## herein2020 (Apr 22, 2020)

How I think this will play out:

R1 - 1DX Mirrorless equivalent
R3 - Entry level FF Canon Mirrorless (aka RP Mark II)
R5 - 5D replacement
R5S - 5DSR replacement
R6 - Video focused body but with less resolution to protect the R5


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## slclick (Apr 22, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> How I think this will play out:
> 
> R1 - 1DX Mirrorless equivalent
> R3 - Entry level FF Canon Mirrorless (aka RP Mark II)
> ...


The problem here is your numbering scheme reflects Canon's hierarchy on one hand yet contradicts it with the 3. It is really looking like they are sticking with the higher numbers for better bodies (again) not like the nomenclature of the M series.


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> How I think this will play out:


The R3 does not fit that naming scheme at all. But yes, at some point they will make a sports camera, but it is not even on the roadmap yet.

They might be sticking to several naming schemes in parallel to each other, the RF-mount XC-like camera is going to have a new name as well.


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## herein2020 (Apr 22, 2020)

slclick said:


> The problem here is your numbering scheme reflects Canon's hierarchy on one hand yet contradicts it with the 3. It is really looking like they are sticking with the higher numbers for better bodies (again) not like the nomenclature of the M series.


I agree it is confusing times but we only have two numbers to go off of right now; not enough to see a pattern. So far we know the R6 is not as good as the R5 and we know the R5 is the 5D replacement. But we also know the R6 has a 20MP sensor which makes no sense except for video and the 1DX of course for sports; so if they are trying to keep some familiarity with the DSLR lines then the introduction of the R3, the repositioning of the R6, and the numbering scheme makes sense.

I know this is a lot of concjecture but hey...that's what is fun about rumors sites.



padam said:


> The R3 does not fit that naming scheme at all. But yes, at some point they will make a sports camera, but it is not even on the roadmap yet.
> 
> They might be sticking to several naming schemes in parallel to each other, the RF-mount XC-like camera is going to have a new name as well.



It makes sense if you look at the fact that they stated the R5 was meant to be a 5D IV replacement and the next number in the sequence R6 is not as good as the R5 but way better than an entrylevel FF.

Here is an updated list without the R3 since it doesn't seem to fit:

R1 - 1DX Mirrorless Replacement
R5 - 5D Replacement
R5S - 5DS Replacement
R6 - Video focused body but with less resolution to protect the R5 
R8 - Entry level FF Canon Mirrorless (aka RP Mark II) 

I skipped R7 since that would be too confusing with so many 7D users.


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## slclick (Apr 22, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I agree it is confusing times but we only have two numbers to go off of right now; not enough to see a pattern. So far we know the R6 is not as good as the R5 and we know the R5 is the 5D replacement. But we also know the R6 has a 20MP sensor which makes no sense except for video and the 1DX of course for sports; so if they are trying to keep some familiarity with the DSLR lines then the introduction of the R3, the repositioning of the R6, and the numbering scheme makes sense.
> 
> I know this is a lot of concjecture but hey...that's what is fun about rumors sites.


Canon has recently stated the R5 will fit into the 5D category for build and specs, that is pretty convincing of what they're doing, imo. Plus the last time they made a 3 in FF was a film body and I have one!


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## herein2020 (Apr 22, 2020)

slclick said:


> Canon has recently stated the R5 will fit into the 5D category for build and specs, that is pretty convincing of what they're doing, imo. Plus the last time they made a 3 in FF was a film body and I have one!



I agree with you, fixed my list but still support my argument that the R6 is not going to be their entry level FF and that it will be video focused.

R1 - 1DX Mirrorless Replacement
R5 - 5D Replacement
R5S - 5DS Replacement
R6 - Video focused body but with less resolution to protect the R5 
R8 - Entry level FF Canon Mirrorless (aka RP Mark II) 

I skipped R7 since that would be too confusing with so many 7D users.


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

Treyarnon said:


> I do have to say - if Canon are designing a new sensor specifically for the R6 (rather than using an existing part), I am rather puzzelled why go for 20MP?? Upper 20's to lower 30's would make much more sense to me.


In short, they won't put a higher end sensor in a lower-end body, so it is simplified in most ways, including the sensor.
The main difference between them is probably the readout speed, but it needs the processors to keep up, with it and that adds heat, size and cost. So it works in a camera that cost 3x more and also 3x bigger, but not in the EOS R6.
So the sensor is slower, but not as much as the older generation (and less expensive, needs less processing power to use it) but some advantages still remain.
Like the ISO sensitivity for stills (you also get a clearer view in the EVF)and lower framerate 4K video, and low-light AF and it will still have good video capabilities, it actually becomes is less crippled for video with less megapixels (where I think the IBIS is even more useful, since for capturing action the IBIS is not so beneficial)
The R5 looks like a beefed up EOS R and the R6 like a beefed up EOS RP, but they all remain in the product range.


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## slclick (Apr 22, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I agree with you, fixed my list but still support my argument that the R6 is not going to be their entry level FF and that it will be video focused.
> 
> R1 - 1DX Mirrorless Replacement
> R5 - 5D Replacement
> ...


Notwthe R7 number sounds right for a 7D# replacement. That would make lots of shooters very happy. There is still not a camera in that list for me, might never be, oh well.


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## slclick (Apr 22, 2020)

padam said:


> In short, they won't put a higher end sensor in a lower-end body, so it is simplified in most ways, including the sensor.
> The main difference between them is probably the readout speed, but it needs the processors to keep up, with it and that adds heat, size and cost. So it works in a camera that cost 3x more and also 3x bigger, but not in the EOS R6.
> So that sensor is a much faster one (and more expensive, needs more processing power to use it) but some advantages still remain.
> Like the ISO sensitivity for stills (you also get a clearer view in the EVF)and lower framerate 4K video, and low-light AF and it will still have good video capabilities, it actually becomes is less crippled for video with less megapixels (where I think the IBIS is even more useful, since for capturing action the IBIS is not so beneficial)


How about using the 1DX3 sensor but with AA changes?


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

slclick said:


> How about using the 1DX3 sensor but with AA changes?


We can put away that thought for good, it is a different sensor, and it is understandable considering one is 2000-2500$ and the other is 6500$.

It also won't make the 1DXIII obsolete in any way like some people thought (don't buy the 1DXIII and wait for mirrorless), since it is the only Canon camera to shoot RAW video (5.5k) at 60fps, the R5 will only do it in 8k30p and with also more rolling shutter, so it is actually less high-end in some ways, and weirdly, the DSLR is still better for video in several aspects.


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## koenkooi (Apr 22, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Whoops!! Apparently I read right over that. Well then that info is brand new as of this post. That's very interesting then. I can't image what the big difference would be that Canon would make another 20MP sensor on top the one they are already making now.
> 
> I wonder if perhaps IBIS necessitates this? Otherwise I can't imagine what difference in performance ( if any at all) in the sensor itself there will be between the two...
> 
> Or perhaps it's just classified as a new sensor because of IBIS? Someone with more insight than me on that one is gonna have to chime in.



Canon used a lot of weasel words for the R and RP sensors, when they only seem to have changed the microlens arrays on them. So it could very well be the 1dx3 sensor with a new microlens array and ibis.


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## Pape (Apr 22, 2020)

I hope they got new and better sensor than 1dx3 sensor .always can hope ,maybe double gain beast . Maybe they could put R1 sensor to this ,it could be ready already 
I think 20mpixel is perfect for stills ,big enough for good sized prints or 4k screen viewing.
Its easier to master electronic shutter when smaller megapixel amount ,and all computing photography things are easier and faster.
Pixel shift can create big pictures if needed and so on.
I wish this would have computing power of R5 but then it would be R1 without weather seal and robustness


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## herein2020 (Apr 22, 2020)

padam said:


> In short, they won't put a higher end sensor in a lower-end body, so it is simplified in most ways, including the sensor.
> The main difference between them is probably the readout speed, but it needs the processors to keep up, with it and that adds heat, size and cost. So it works in a camera that cost 3x more and also 3x bigger, but not in the EOS R6.
> So the sensor is slower, but not as much as the older generation (and less expensive, needs less processing power to use it) but some advantages still remain.
> Like the ISO sensitivity for stills (you also get a clearer view in the EVF)and lower framerate 4K video, and low-light AF and it will still have good video capabilities, it actually becomes is less crippled for video with less megapixels (where I think the IBIS is even more useful, since for capturing action the IBIS is not so beneficial)
> The R5 looks like a beefed up EOS R and the R6 like a beefed up EOS RP, but they all remain in the product range.


But it still does not make sense from that standpoint. Every single other camera maker's entry level FF non video oriented body has higher MP sensors typically between 24MP and 36MP. Entry level shooters are probably the largest group that cares about sensor resolution. Every YouTubber will tell those entry level shooters to stay away from the R6 because of it's "low" resolution not to mention the bar to entry for Canon mirrorless FF is a lot more expensive than it used to be due to RF lens costs.

CanonRumors even reported that Canon was working on a video oriented body and to me that's the only reason they would have chosen a 20MP sensor. Another counter to your logic is that they already have the RP which has higher resolution than the R6 yet is sub $1K. Why would they possibly add features that entry level shooters do not care about like dual card slots yet take away the one thing every Reviewer and YouTubber will complain about; sensor resolution?


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## H. Jones (Apr 22, 2020)

In the virtual press conference, Canon made a point when talking about the 5D Mark II that it had success in the consumer price point of "under 4000 dollars," to quote the stream. That made my ears perk up, because I'd think that implies the R5 is definitely going to be under 4000, if their strategy is making a camera like the 5D2 for the masses.

With that in mind, if they're announcing the R6 at the same time, maybe the R6 really could be announced for exactly $1000 and they make a big deal of that as well. 

When they tell us to temper our expectations about the R6, I take that pretty seriously. I really doubt it'll have autofocus at 12 FPS mechanical or even the 20 FPS electronic shutter, I bet it'll be more along the lines of the EOS R, which only shot at 5 FPS with autofocus and 8 FPS with focus locked. I bet this will basically be the EOS RP with a bigger battery and full-frame 4K. 

Wasn't there a rumor of a camera that comes in *under* the RP price? The 20 megapixel spec really seems like it could give them room to drop the price of this way down.


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## Pape (Apr 22, 2020)

motofotog said:


> I am not much worried of it’s video features, hope it has good High ISO performance and similar AF features like R5 with less AF points.


It probably does new intelligent noise removes for jpg like that topaz thingie .so lot better iso performance . Good for peoples who doesnt want buy 2k computer too


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> Wasn't there a rumor of a camera that comes in *under* the RP price? The 20 megapixel spec really seems like it could give them room to drop the price of this way down.


Add in 4k60p, IBIS, dual card slots, bigger battery, increase the fps and reduce the price? Get real. The A7S line was never cheaper than the A7 line, it was much more expensive in fact.
They've already made the cheapest FF mirrorless that they could, that is the RP and it won't get any more basic than that.

The A7III still has less capabilities than this R6 (only 10fps electronic shutter and not 20fps, no 4k60p), so it sits above the A7III and I guess the A7IV could be more similar, so maybe both the A7IV and the R6 will cost 2500$.


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## SteveC (Apr 22, 2020)

Everything "odd" about this camera seems to involve, somehow the 20 MP sensor. It seems like marketing, at the very least should have stepped in and said HELL NO, people will see that as a step down.

There's got to be a missing (or wrong) piece of information here.


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Everything "odd" about this camera seems to involve, somehow the 20 MP sensor. It seems like marketing, at the very least should have stepped in and said HELL NO, people will see that as a step down.
> 
> There's got to be a missing (or wrong) piece of information here.


People are assuming way too much on megapixel count. The Z6, A7III, Panasonic S1 or even the Sigma FP, which are all FF mirrorless competitors are all 24MP.
And even at 200% magnification there is really not much meaningful difference between 5472x3648 or 6000x4000 pixels, the AA filter used is actually more significant in terms of resolution.


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## SteveC (Apr 22, 2020)

slclick said:


> Canon has recently stated the R5 will fit into the 5D category for build and specs, that is pretty convincing of what they're doing, imo. Plus the last time they made a 3 in FF was a film body and I have one!



They didn't use the number 3 with EF because the model would have been called the "3D" which has its own very different meaning. I think there's a cultural reason they never used the number 4.


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## unfocused (Apr 22, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Canon has stated that the R and RP were more-or-less place holders. Just to get a MILC out into the market in order to start building up a library of glass...



Could you provide a source for that? I don't recall seeing that from Canon.


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## Tmjc.wolf (Apr 22, 2020)

The 20mp sensor really does seem strange, especially when you can get a 30mp sensor with the R for significantly less money. I could imagine a lineup where it sit´s close to the R and the consumer has the choice of going with higher resolution with the R or with better video and faster bursts with the R6


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## herein2020 (Apr 22, 2020)

padam said:


> People are assuming way too much on megapixel count. The Z6, A7III, Panasonic S1 or even the Sigma FP, which are all FF mirrorless competitors are all 24MP.
> And even at 200% magnification there is really not much meaningful difference between 5472x3648 or 6000x4000 pixels, the AA filter used is actually more significant in terms of resolution.


I 100% agree with you on the actual functional difference between 20MP and 24MP....the problem once again will be the marketing. There is no way Canon will live down a 20MP sensor in a non video oriented body. Marketing hype is a real thing...especially at these price points. Now one other scenario that would make perfect sense is simply that the Canon Rumor is wrong and the sensor is indeed 24 or more MP.

YouTubbers were even complaining about 20MP in the 1DXIII a body which is well understood and for a niche that is well known; and not one of them will probably ever own it or shoot a sporting event yet they still complained. Imagine if this thing releases as anything but video focused with a 20MP sensor.


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## joestopper (Apr 22, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Announcement of R5/R6 in May is good, availabilty shortly after even better ...


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## NorthernNovice (Apr 22, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> But it still does not make sense from that standpoint. Every single other camera maker's entry level FF non video oriented body has higher MP sensors typically between 24MP and 36MP. Entry level shooters are probably the largest group that cares about sensor resolution. Every YouTubber will tell those entry level shooters to stay away from the R6 because of it's "low" resolution not to mention the bar to entry for Canon mirrorless FF is a lot more expensive than it used to be due to RF lens costs.
> 
> CanonRumors even reported that Canon was working on a video oriented body and to me that's the only reason they would have chosen a 20MP sensor. Another counter to your logic is that they already have the RP which has higher resolution than the R6 yet is sub $1K. Why would they possibly add features that entry level shooters do not care about like dual card slots yet take away the one thing every Reviewer and YouTubber will complain about; sensor resolution?



I agree with your comment about uneducated buyers wanting more megapixels.

Thankfully, I have just enough understanding to not want more  I am happy with 20 with better noise and DR.


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## koch1948 (Apr 22, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I agree it is confusing times but we only have two numbers to go off of right now; not enough to see a pattern. So far we know the R6 is not as good as the R5 and we know the R5 is the 5D replacement. But we also know the R6 has a 20MP sensor which makes no sense except for video and the 1DX of course for sports; so if they are trying to keep some familiarity with the DSLR lines then the introduction of the R3, the repositioning of the R6, and the numbering scheme makes sense.
> 
> I know this is a lot of concjecture but hey...that's what is fun about rumors sites.
> 
> ...





herein2020 said:


> I agree it is confusing times but we only have two numbers to go off of right now; not enough to see a pattern. So far we know the R6 is not as good as the R5 and we know the R5 is the 5D replacement. But we also know the R6 has a 20MP sensor which makes no sense except for video and the 1DX of course for sports; so if they are trying to keep some familiarity with the DSLR lines then the introduction of the R3, the repositioning of the R6, and the numbering scheme makes sense.
> 
> I know this is a lot of concjecture but hey...that's what is fun about rumors sites.
> 
> ...


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## Trey T (Apr 22, 2020)

Alledged 7D3 that I was waiting for. I just got the 7D2 several months ago after 10yrs w/ 7D. Gonna wait for a decade to migrate to mirrorless and get this R6...


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## joestopper (Apr 22, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



" ... The EOS R6 will NOT use the same sensor as the EOS-1D X Mark III. .... "

OK, some miracle solved (would have been strange to get the same sensor in a body that cost a fraction and has same or better video and FPS capabilities.

Anyway: I do hope that the R5 does have the same sensor technology as the 1DXII i.e. high DR!


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I 100% agree with you on the actual functional difference between 20MP and 24MP....the problem once again will be the marketing. There is no way Canon will live down a 20MP sensor in a non video oriented body. Marketing hype is a real thing...especially at these price points. Now one other scenario that would make perfect sense is simply that the Canon Rumor is wrong and the sensor is indeed 24 or more MP.
> 
> YouTubbers were even complaining about 20MP in the 1DXIII a body which is well understood and for a niche that is well known; and not one of them will probably ever own it or shoot a sporting event yet they still complained. Imagine if this thing releases as anything but video focused with a 20MP sensor.


There is some confusion here: It is very much a video oriented body among being a great stills camera.
Just not as high-end for video as a few other Canon cameras, which are much more expensive, obviously. But is is still one of the best, there are only three other Canon stills cameras that shoot 4k60p (and one hasn't quite released yet), the 1DXII 1DXIII and now the EOS R5.

The slightly lower MP count won't be a problem in the slightest, the A7S was by far the most popular line in the original Sony lineup, and it was much more compromised at 12MP and very lacklustre auto focusing.
The A7III is the most popular FF mirrorless at the moment and this camera could very well surpass it in many ways and it is in the Canon ecosystem, IBIS working and autofocus perfectly with Canon lenses, whether those are EF or RF-mount, which on its own is very attractive, with the adapter on the Sony, it is a far cry from this level of integration.


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## koch1948 (Apr 22, 2020)

“R5 - 5D Replacement”……
Wouldn’t the R5 accept EF lenses natively instead of using adapters if it were truly a 5D replacement?


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## picperfect (Apr 22, 2020)

R6 with rumored specs makes zero sense to me. Definitely not interested in a crippled 20 MP FF camera in 2020. Even if it came at USD / € 999.


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## Avenger 2.0 (Apr 22, 2020)

When the R5/R6 is released, I'll get myself a second hand R. They will be dirt cheap.


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## picperfect (Apr 22, 2020)

Maximilian said:


> Canon was always "special" in the past, separating products and product lines by hardware, even if a reasonable R&D cost calculation would recommend a reuse of one part (sensor) in a parallel product line (not to mix up with reuse of old parts).



I don't see that. To the opposite. Canon used its 18 MP APS_C sensor in about 15 different camera bodies from Rebels to 7D to EOS M models. And the 6D II sensor also appeared in EOS RP and the 5D IV sensor also used in EOS R. etc. etc.


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## Architect1776 (Apr 22, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



The R6 is a huge step down. 20mp sensor? 90D has 32.5 mp sensor.
The rest I can live with and was considering until I saw the 20 mp sensor.
At least make it 32 mp or sell the camera at T prices like $599.00 with a kit lens.


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

joestopper said:


> " ... The EOS R6 will NOT use the same sensor as the EOS-1D X Mark III. .... "
> 
> OK, some miracle solved (would have been strange to get the same sensor in a body that cost a fraction and has same or better video and FPS capabilities.
> 
> Anyway: I do hope that the R5 does have the same sensor technology as the 1DXII i.e. high DR!


I think it will come with Canon Log as well, so the DR will not be limited and the ISO will be great as well, the readout speed and the internal codecs will be more likely compromises.


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## herein2020 (Apr 22, 2020)

picperfect said:


> R6 with rumored specs makes zero sense to me. Definitely not interested in a crippled 20 MP FF camera in 2020. Even if it came at USD / € 999.





Architect1776 said:


> The R6 is a huge step down. 20mp sensor? 90D has 32.5 mp sensor.
> The rest I can live with and was considering until I saw the 20 mp sensor.
> At least make it 32 mp or sell the camera at T prices like $599.00 with a kit lens.



And so it continues....


Panasonic GH5 - 20MP
Panasonic GH5S - 10MP
Sony A7SII - 12.2MP

What do they all have in common? They are all video oriented, all 20MP or less, and all pretty legendary in their video abilities.. In the video world less is more. If this debuts with a 20MP sensor, 4K60FPS, no recording limit, XLR module, video recording to both card slots, 4K raw over HDMI, DPAF at 4K60FPS..etc etc...no one will say this is a "huge" step down.

My hope is that this will be a great video oriented camera that can also take fantastic 20MP stills. Fun fact the average Instagram image is less than 2MP, full spread magazine shoots only need 20MP...how often do you even print any of your images?

How many MP you Need








How Many Megapixels Do You Really Need?


How Many Megapixels Do You Really Need?




www.tomsguide.com


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> The R6 is a huge step down. 20mp sensor? 90D has 32.5 mp sensor.
> The rest I can live with and was considering until I saw the 20 mp sensor.
> At least make it 32 mp or sell the camera at T prices like $599.00 with a kit lens.


What people struggle to get a grip on, is that everything, and I mean, literally everything is a compromise.
Yes the 90D has more megapixels, but the noise level is also higher, which is not the best for cropping (that's why some people who tried both and regularly use higher shutter speeds and crop, still prefer the 7D Mark II with - _you guessed it_ - 20 megapixels)
Same with the video capabilities, no 4k60p and the uncropped 4k is too soft. This will be in a different league compared to that.
So it is actually less of a step down overall. There are two more cameras in the R family with more megapixels (yes, the EOS R does not have quite a few things, but its pricing is also low for what you are getting) so just make a choice according to your preferences.
No camera manufacturer will ever make a camera, that will have the exact features (on all aspects) and price as the users want, that's why all the Kermit the Frog style typing is generally pointless - I guess it is just something that makes feel people better, more important or something...


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## SteveC (Apr 22, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> The R6 is a huge step down. 20mp sensor? 90D has 32.5 mp sensor.
> The rest I can live with and was considering until I saw the 20 mp sensor.
> At least make it 32 mp or sell the camera at T prices like $599.00 with a kit lens.



That's my issue too. In my mind, wondering if this is worth buying, it's not competing against a Sony. It's competing with my M6-II. Yes, I know that's a crop sensor. But this thing will have an absolutely abysmal pixel pitch compared to the cameras I am used to (I've never owned a full frame, it's not "normal" in any way for me--when I start doing full frame I will put a 100mm lens on one and think of it as a 62.5mm equivalent because it will have the field of view I associate with that focal length on my prior cameras). I can't imagine the low light performance making up for it.

And as has been pointed out 20MP will be a marketing disaster, _regardless of its low light performance_.

Honestly, a hypothetical R-II without the doggone touchbar would be a better fit for me--at least at these price points. But such is unlikely ever to exist, so it's pretty much going to be an R5 (more than I need, but no deficiencies), unless I can't afford it, in which case, probably nothing--or an RP, since it will at least be cheap enough to be worth the tradeoffs.


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## PureClassA (Apr 22, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Canon used a lot of weasel words for the R and RP sensors, when they only seem to have changed the microlens arrays on them. So it could very well be the 1dx3 sensor with a new microlens array and ibis.


That's where my thinking is.


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## Architect1776 (Apr 22, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> And so it continues....
> 
> 
> Panasonic GH5 - 20MP
> ...



I do print a lot and print them as large prints, 16x20 or larger.
If for video and stills secondary, then fine.


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> That's where my thinking is.


It fails in that they are not in similar product categories (the other mirrorless-DSLR relationships are much closer to each other)

This camera is not related to the 1DX Mark III (or 1DX Mark II) in any way, apart from being similar in pixel count, being able to offer 4k60p at a much lower cost (I think it is probably not in FF mode) and also having 1080p 120fps, or 20fps with electronic shutter, although the skewing effect is probably much worse.


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## Architect1776 (Apr 22, 2020)

padam said:


> What people struggle to get a grip on, is that everything, and I mean, literally everything is a compromise.
> Yes the 90D has more megapixels, but the noise level is also higher, which is not the best for cropping (that's why some people who tried both and regularly use higher shutter speeds and crop, still prefer the 7D Mark II with - _you guessed it_ - 20 megapixels)
> Same with the video capabilities, no 4k60p and the uncropped 4k is too soft. This will be in a different league compared to that.
> So it is actually less of a step down overall. There are two more cameras in the R family with more megapixels (yes, the EOS R does not have quite a few things, but its pricing is also low for what you are getting) so just make a choice according to your preferences.
> No camera manufacturer will ever make a camera, that will have the exact features (on all aspects) and price as the users want, that's why all the Kermit the Frog style typing is generally pointless - I guess it is just something that makes feel people better, more important or something...



At FF for stills, 32mp is a sweet spot.
For video if the 20 mp is what is desired and this camera is for that just fine then.


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> At FF for stills, 32mp is a sweet spot.
> For video if the 20 mp is what is desired and this camera is for that just fine then.


 While I don't think there is an absolute sweet spot per se, the R5 45MP sensor is much more of a sweet spot for the R system itself, the majority of the native lenses can resolve far beyond that resolution as you can see on opticallimits, for instance. (And it is still tracks at 12fps mechanical, so it does not hurt speed either)
Since all pixels on the sensor are have the DPAF capability, it might also have its advantages in terms of tracking AF, subject recognition, etc. depending on how the sensor is being utilised in that state.


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## herein2020 (Apr 22, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> I do print a lot and print them as large prints, 16x20 or larger.
> If for video and stills secondary, then fine.


I think in your case then Canon expects you to get the RP or R for now and maybe an as yet unannounced R8 (see my completely speculatory model list below) or the R5 sometime in the future:

R1 - 1DX Mirrorless Replacement
R5 - 5D Replacement
R5S - 5DS Replacement
R6 - Video focused body but with less resolution to protect the R5 
R8 - Entry level FF Canon Mirrorless (aka RP Mark II)


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## knight427 (Apr 22, 2020)

The3o5FlyGuy said:


> Honestly, those specifications are more than good enough for me. I dont do video but if I did, 4k would be the limit my computer could handle. The speed is what I want at 12 frames per second, and I love that its 20mp because I'm hoping that'll be Canons lowlight beast.



Me too. The R was attractive except for the embarrassingly low FPS. As an armature who likes both BiF and milky way AP, the R6 could be the perfect balance.


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## herein2020 (Apr 22, 2020)

NorthernNovice said:


> I agree with your comment about uneducated buyers wanting more megapixels.
> 
> Thankfully, I have just enough understanding to not want more  I am happy with 20 with better noise and DR.


Sometimes I think my current 5DIV with 30MP is still too much. Everytime Lightroom freezes, Photoshop crashes, and Windows Explorer takes forever to show thumbnails I wish the file sizes were smaller. My typical customer will never print the images let alone at full resolution and everyone who says "storage is cheap so who cares about the file sizes" doesn't take into consideration the extra time needed in every step of the workflow from capture to delivery. The one area where I do like the 30MP is when I need to reframe the image or crop in on a shot when I couldn't get close enough to the subject material.

I am not trying to justify their 20MP sensor size decision especially if this camera is not as video focused as I think it will be, but I also have been in this industry long enough to know 20MP should not be a deal breaker for 99% of what most people create the images for.


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## scyrene (Apr 22, 2020)

nickstan said:


> Usually higher megapixels doesn't do well with higher iso, more pixels to introduce noise to, the 6D is only 20mp and I have been able to deliver photos to clients at 12k and higher iso



Pssst this is largely a myth for stills shooting.


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> R1 - 1DX Mirrorless Replacement
> R5 - 5D Replacement
> R5S - 5DS Replacement
> R6 - Video focused body but with less resolution to protect the R5
> R8 - Entry level FF Canon Mirrorless (aka RP Mark II)


The last two where it fails. The R6 can be considered the 6D replacement and going in a different direction as a lower cost low-light photo-video hybrid camera.
So it would be exactly what they would do instead of a 6D Mark III, which is probably never going to come. (I think the 5D Mark V is still coming later on)

The RP is the older one in the same cheap product line, so it is cheap one and the entry to the system until its product cycle ends (it was three more years to go) and only then there may be some replacement to that.


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## herein2020 (Apr 22, 2020)

padam said:


> The last two where it fails. The R6 can be considered the 6D replacement and going in a different direction as a lower cost low-light photo-video hybrid camera.
> So it would be exactly what they would do instead of a 6D Mark III, which is probably never going to come. (I think the 5D Mark V is still coming later on)
> 
> The RP is the older one in the same cheap product line, so it is cheap one and the entry to the system until its product cycle ends (it was three more years to go) and only then there may be some replacement to that.


I think they are going to wait and see what mirrorless adoption looks like prior to committing to a 5D Mark V. And if they do release one I think it would be with an RF mount so you get the best of both worlds...OVF with RF mount and EF backwards compatibility with the adapter. Of course they did just announce their latest Cinema camera and it is still just EF or PL mount so maybe there is a bit of EF life left.


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## navastronia (Apr 22, 2020)

20mp simply doesn't make sense for a 6D replacement. It's too low. The 90D sells for $1100 and has 32.5 mp. You can't sell a 20mp camera for $2000 or more unless there's something special about it (i.e., it's a 1DX body, or it's a specialty video body).

So, I believe that if has only has 20mp, it's going to be a video-centric body. I know I'm in the minority, to think this, but I can't imagine who's going to line up to buy it, otherwise, given that there are so many other options on the market that offer higher MP for less money. At the end of the day, for better or worse, the majority of photographers _do_ care about resolution.

I've been saying it for months, but this camera, as currently speced and speculatively priced, does not make sense.


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I think they are going to wait and see what mirrorless adoption looks like prior to committing to a 5D Mark V. And if they do release one I think it would be with an RF mount so you get the best of both worlds...OVF with RF mount and EF backwards compatibility with the adapter. Of course they did just announce their latest Cinema camera and it is still just EF or PL mount so maybe there is a bit of EF life left.


They add in the R5 features with a different IBIS system tailored for EF-mount lenses and to work in a DSLR body that comes with a simpler version of the 1DX III focusing system with deep learning as it's been done in the past, and they have a very desirable camera for EF-mount users.
Hybrid viewfinders, or adapters with OVFs on top look interesting on patent papers, but they don't really make sense in the real word, even the 1DX didn't come with it, and it's 6500$
Just use everything the way it currently is on a 5D and to that, add in the new technology, maybe make the screen articulated, but they really don't need to complicate it any further, it is what the 5D user base needs, unless the R5 attacts them so much that they won't do it. But I think some things on that camera just won't quite work in the same, straightforward seamless way it does on a 5D.


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

navastronia said:


> 20mp simply doesn't make sense for a 6D replacement. It's too low. The 90D sells for $1100 and has 32.5 mp. You can't sell a 20mp camera for $2000 or more unless there's something special about it (i.e., it's a 1DX body, or it's a specialty video body).
> 
> So, I believe that if has only has 20mp, it's going to be a video-centric body. I know I'm in the minority, to think this, but I can't imagine who's going to line up to buy it, otherwise, given that there are so many other options on the market that offer higher MP for less money. At the end of the day, for better or worse, the majority of photographers _do_ care about resolution.
> 
> I've been saying it for months, but this camera, as currently speced and speculatively priced, does not make sense.


It does make actually make _perfect _sense.
It is called _moving with the times_, seeing what's trending and what's not.
And that is exactly what the A7III is in the mirrorless world (or X-T3, X-T4 etc. etc.) it is tailored *both *photo and video creation. Will it increase megapixels in its next iteration? I don't think so, I think it will remain at 24MP, at least for now. Unless it could improve video capabilities and the ISO while doing that, which probably won't happen, seeing the A7RIV not really improving for video over the predecessor.

Making a camera with more megapixels and being more compromised in video would make it much less of a head-to-head competitor against these cameras or it would be priced out of this price range, which still seems to be shifting quite well.
Despite some grumbling on the forums for being lower megapixel, this is not what most people actually want, especially when parts like the DPAF, existing line of EF lenses, colour science, interface, articulating screen, etc. are already there. What they've complained about are the lack of IBIS, dual card slots and video features and ISO. Everything is there with this camera, I just hope they won't cripple the dynamic range of this newer generation cheaper FF sensor, to be able to keep the C-Log in as well and to have good external 10-bit 4:2:2 capabilities.
But I think they are designing it with a fair few years of product life in mind and price it around the A7III, so I think the 6DII / RP levels of dynamic range on a FF sensor are over.

So overall, if we classify this as the next model in the 6D line of cameras like EOS R6 name suggests, it is called re-branding, although it this case it is part of a new system, not exactly a continuation of the 6D line. And its old derivative, the RP can continue to sit at the lowest point and the EOS R can also continue for those who value more megapixels at a lower price point over other missing things, which all made their way into the higher-end EOS R5.


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## bbasiaga (Apr 22, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I think they are going to wait and see what mirrorless adoption looks like prior to committing to a 5D Mark V. And if they do release one I think it would be with an RF mount so you get the best of both worlds...OVF with RF mount and EF backwards compatibility with the adapter. Of course they did just announce their latest Cinema camera and it is still just EF or PL mount so maybe there is a bit of EF life left.


I don't think that is physically possible. The flange to sensor distance on the RF mount is shorter than the EF mount. That is what allows you to adapt EF glass- the spacer would otherwise make it so the lens would lose a significant amount of focal range. So with the shorter flange distance you no longer have room to flip a mirror, and therefore no OVF. 

-Brian


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## bbasiaga (Apr 22, 2020)

koch1948 said:


> “R5 - 5D Replacement”……
> Wouldn’t the R5 accept EF lenses natively instead of using adapters if it were truly a 5D replacement?


No bro. It would have to have an EF mount to do that, and therefore wouldn't be an RF mount/R series camera. While I suppose you could just take the mirror out of an EF camera and use the mirrorless style body, you lose the advantage in size and weight you can get with the RF mount. All that empty space for the mirror would still be there and be unused. 

The R5 may ship with an adapter, and the adapters so far seem to be very fully featured so as to be nearly seamless. Which is a pretty stellar deal in my mind.

Perhaps the post you referenced could have more accurrately described as ' R5- 5D Mirorrless Equivalent'. But I think the assumption in his 'replacement' is that the mirrorless line is eventually going to replace the EF mount line. 

-Brian


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## victorshikhman (Apr 22, 2020)

The megapixel wars are over, or need to be. 20MP is perfectly fine for 90% of professional still image work. Lower MP but bigger pixels can be great for low light performance, which is a big deal for plenty of bread and butter photography. Many portrait pros prefer shooting at lower resolutions - most customers don't want their every wrinkle in crisp detail. And with computational software doing image stacking/sensor shift high res modes, even smaller MP sensors can deliver quite large MP files (50-100MP+), when necessary. But many don't want those crazy resolutions outside of very specific settings - large prints, need to crop, etc. And anyone who wants more "native" MP can just get the R5, or wait for the mythical high res beast. Everyone gets what they want. Or they switch to Sony. Thank G-d we live in a time of endless options and amazing performance. If only our creative and professional opportunities were limited by our gear, we would have a reason to complain. Almost no one can say that today.


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## Andy Westwood (Apr 22, 2020)

We are all looking forward to the R5 and R6 launch, but what we must remember is Canon has been playing catch up in the mirrorless market for a while now. Sony’s mirrorless cameras have been a revolution for years and Canon’s recent models have not really given us much to cheer about excluding the EOS R firmware update 4 and the RF Glass of course but body wise well, it’s all been a little tame sadly.

The Canon R5 sounds spectacular in every way and a gamechanger but getting back to the R6, Canon needs to up its game just ask any Sony user and these days I know loads of them, mostly photographers who at some stage have jumped ship from Canon or Nikon and let’s face it who could blame them.

Sony users expect and get, Incredible Autofocus Performance, uncropped video, and fast frame rates in 1080 and 4K, great Low-Light performance, IBIS, Dual Card Slots and much more.

Canon users should start to expect all this too, because of their loyalty to the brand and because as Sony have proved it is all very possible.

I am looking forward to the R6 it is high on my Wishlist already. I have no problem with the 20mp sensor, but I hope Canon remembers the competition and doesn’t cripple this camera because the A7 III although a little dated now but even still it’s a fantastic camera and the A7 IV is surely only around the corner.


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## navastronia (Apr 22, 2020)

padam said:


> It does make actually make _perfect _sense.
> It is called _moving with the times_, seeing what's trending and what's not.
> And that is exactly what the A7III is in the mirrorless world (or X-T3, X-T4 etc. etc.) it is tailored *both *photo and video creation. Will it increase megapixels in its next iteration? I don't think so, I think it will remain at 24MP, at least for now. Unless it could improve video capabilities and the ISO while doing that, which probably won't happen, seeing the A7RIV not really improving for video over the predecessor.
> 
> ...



So, you agree with me, which is that this is "not exactly a continuation of the 6D line." It's a body for "*both* photo and video" ---- though if we're being honest, the only major innovation in this body (IBIS) pertains mostly to video, and the major _limitation_ of this body (mp) pertains mostly to photo. Another way to say that is that it's a video-centric body.

I.e., I believe the evidence demonstrates I'm still correct.


----------



## herein2020 (Apr 22, 2020)

navastronia said:


> So, you agree with me, which is that this is "not exactly a continuation of the 6D line." It's a body for "*both* photo and video" ---- though if we're being honest, the only major innovation in this body (IBIS) pertains mostly to video, and the major _limitation_ of this body (mp) pertains mostly to photo. Another way to say that is that it's a video-centric body.
> 
> I.e., I believe the evidence demonstrates I'm still correct.


I agree with you, the 6 in R6 everyone understands, the 20MP everyone understands, when you put the two together it all gets confusing. I think this is more a repositioning of the 6D to a more upmarket product position while leaving room below it for a new entry level MILC FF in Canon's lineup. Just like the R5 is positioned as a 5D equivalent/replacement yet it has more video features than the 5D ever did.

I do still think the 20MP sensor is some flavor or slight derivative of the 1DXIII's sensor which to me would be more innovative than the specs so far have shown, I also think (hope) Canon has a few more tricks up its sleeve that they have yet to reveal for the R6 such as raw over HDMI; however, even with just the specs as revealed so far, as long as there are no major crippling limitations this would be the perfect GH5 replacement for me.



Andy Westwood said:


> We are all looking forward to the R5 and R6 launch, but what we must remember is Canon has been playing catch up in the mirrorless market for a while now. Sony’s mirrorless cameras have been a revolution for years and Canon’s recent models have not really given us much to cheer about excluding the EOS R firmware update 4 and the RF Glass of course but body wise well, it’s all been a little tame sadly.
> 
> The Canon R5 sounds spectacular in every way and a gamechanger but getting back to the R6, Canon needs to up its game just ask any Sony user and these days I know loads of them, mostly photographers who at some stage have jumped ship from Canon or Nikon and let’s face it who could blame them.
> 
> ...



I'm with you on this one, much of my anticipation is based on imagined specs that have not been announced or an imaginary absence of any major crippling. If the R6 does not record video to both card slots, has a recording limit, or does not offer an XLR audio module I will sit out the rest of the year and possibly the next two years and just keep my current setup. Canon will lose my business for RF lenses, at least 1 R mount camera body, and a C200 purchase. I hope this is the year I consolidate my entire video and photography business around Canon, but so far I've been waiting for 4yrs to do that.


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## Maximilian (Apr 22, 2020)

picperfect said:


> I don't see that. To the opposite. Canon used its 18 MP APS_C sensor in about 15 different camera bodies from Rebels to 7D to EOS M models. And the 6D II sensor also appeared in EOS RP and the 5D IV sensor also used in EOS R. etc. etc.


But only after it became OLD in its APS-C prime model, didn‘t it?
Not at same time, but after the prime model had some time in the market.
And similar with the FF sensors.


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

Andy Westwood said:


> I am looking forward to the R6 it is high on my Wishlist already. I have no problem with the 20mp sensor, but I hope Canon remembers the competition and doesn’t cripple this camera because the A7 III although a little dated now but even still it’s a fantastic camera and the A7 IV is surely only around the corner.


It is tricky, because Canon is very much looking at its own product range as well for what they can give in order not to cannibalise the other models and the lower-cost models are known to be compromised in some way or another.

Well, it is safe to say that the IBIS system is going to be superior, the EVF and fully articulating screen are going to be superior (with full touch functionality) the adaptability is also superior, there is the colour science, and no Sony camera shoots 4k60p at this point, so that is a big advantage. Still image frame rate looks good, if it is with tracking AF included. The battery might be the same LP-E6NH as the EOS R5, so roughly equal to the Sony.

Summarising the main question marks:
FF 4k - is it going to be left out for completely for processing power, heat or just marketing purposes and shoot 4k at any frame rate with an APS-H crop (like the 1DX Mark II)? Maybe 4k30p is uncropped and 4k60p is cropped?
1080p 120fps - will have AF disabled, like the 90D?
Internal codecs - are they going to be 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264 (UHD) only? Is it going to be IPB only, like every lower class Canon camera?
Dynamic range and Canon Log - is it going to be omitted (like on the 1DX Mark II) to go aggressive on pricing, or are they going to be retained and with a higher price tag?




navastronia said:


> So, you agree with me, which is that this is "not exactly a continuation of the 6D line." It's a body for "*both* photo and video" ---- though if we're being honest, the only major innovation in this body (IBIS) pertains mostly to video, and the major _limitation_ of this body (mp) pertains mostly to photo.
> 
> I.e., I believe I'm still correct.


Nope. They have purposely named the cameras R5 and R6.
And the other big 'innovation' is that it has dual card slots, which means finally you can have dual card slots on a lower-level camera, and utilise it on weddings. That is purely there *for stills*, because it won't dual record video. Lower megapixel count can also means superior low-light focusing. And it shoots much much faster which was a complaint on their previous FF mirrorless cameras.
So yes, it is very much an improvement for stills.


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## slclick (Apr 22, 2020)

padam said:


> We can put away that thought for good, it is a different sensor, and it is understandable considering one is 2000-2500$ and the other is 6500$.
> 
> It also won't make the 1DXIII obsolete in any way like some people thought (don't buy the 1DXIII and wait for mirrorless), since it is the only Canon camera to shoot RAW video (5.5k) at 60fps, the R5 will only do it in 8k30p and with also more rolling shutter, so it is actually less high-end in some ways, and weirdly, the DSLR is still better for video in several aspects.


I disagree with where you are coming from, + your logic is suspect....there is SO much more to the 1DX3 than the sensor which determines cost. Asking if there is a version of the 20mp sensor with a major aspect of it's properties is pretty realistic.


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

slclick said:


> I disagree with where you are coming from, + your logic is suspect....there is SO much more to the 1DX3 than the sensor which determines cost. Asking if there is a version of the 20mp sensor with a major aspect of it's properties is pretty realistic.


I don't disagree that there is more to the 1DX3, of course there is.
But we are arguing about something that has been stated as a fact (and also very illogical, knowing how Canon designs its products, it is actually Their logic), but keep on going, when it turns out to be the case and people got proven wrong, people just go silent on these little details to skip admitting it.

The summary is that yes, they they Could do a mirrorless camera with a 1DX3 sensor adjusted for RF-mount and all its features. But this camera is not it.


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## slclick (Apr 22, 2020)

padam said:


> I don't disagree that there is more to the 1DX3, of course there is.
> But we are arguing about something that has been stated as a fact (and also very illogical, knowing how Canon designs its products, it is actually Their logic), but keep on going, when it turns out to be the case and people got proven wrong, people just go silent on these little details to skip admitting it.
> 
> The summary is that yes, they they Could do a mirrorless camera with a 1DX3 sensor adjusted for RF-mount and all its features. But this camera is not it.


OMFG, you for the 2nd time skipped right past my point. It was about the anti aliasing remember? That change makes it a different sensor. Reading comprehension gets really annoying when it takes multiple posts to convey a simple meaning.


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

slclick said:


> OMFG, you for the 2nd time skipped right past my point. It was about the anti aliasing remember? That change makes it a different sensor. Reading comprehension gets really annoying when it takes multiple posts to convey a simple meaning.


There is no point in changing the AA filter, it has been improved on the 1DX3 compared to its predecessor so why would they not use it, only the micro lenses need to be rearranged for mirrorless if they want to re-use it.
But the point it, for some weird reason, you are arguing about something stated as a fact in the main article of this thread, similar MP count, different sensors.
While it is nice to dream about things but the reality that is is a completely different class camera and if they put a 1DX3 sensor variant in a mirrorless camera (with whatever type of AA filter), it will be named with either an X or a 1 and with a pricetag to match as well.

Hint: the 6D Mark 1 was still in production when the 1DX Mark II came out. They are both 20MP FF sensors, in fact the 5472x3648 pixel count is exactly the same on both cameras.
Are they related in any way besides being 20MP? Nope.


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## hippase (Apr 22, 2020)

I agree with Tony Northrup that it can be a good A7III competitor. For me it's more interesting than the R5 and than the R with the dual card slot. The real question is, is there a crop in 4k video ? And is there the dual pixel AF active in all video modes ? I didnt read anything on that in the rumors but if it is it could be really interesting and correct the limitations of the Eos R.


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## tomri (Apr 22, 2020)

When I go mirrorless from my Eos 6d I definitely want to see an improvement in the sensor as well. So if the 20mpix one in the R6 is not much better in DR, then this will be a non buy for me. Since the R5 will likely be very expensive it could mean another long wait or jumping system. But lets hope it comes differently...


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## Utonagan (Apr 22, 2020)

I hope there will be some semblance of balance with the R6. There is an unhealthy addiction to video features and promotion. A very short on-line press conf for the R5 and all they talked about for a few seconds are the R5 video specs and to be honest it sounded more like an ad for Red 8k cameras.
I'm much more interested in the R6 and not so much interest in the M50 mk2. Also we still don't have a true successor for the 7dmk2 although the R6 rumored specs do seem to get close all be it at full frame. I don't see the R6 to be a competitor to the Sony A73. The R6 more along the lines of a what the Nikon D780 should have been. Broader range than an A73, D780, or Z6.
My main concern will be the image processing in camera and if Canon intend to force push aspects boosting without the ability to shut it off like what Sony and Nikon does. Far too much software processing then baking that into the image files isn't a good idea.
It would be nice if the R6 was somewhat of a smaller Nikon D5.


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## picperfect (Apr 22, 2020)

padam said:


> . Lower megapixel count can also means superior low-light focusing.


please explain. what? how exactly? i call it total BS.


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## picperfect (Apr 22, 2020)

Utonagan said:


> There is an unhealthy addiction to video features and promotion.


very much so.

not interested in either R5 nor R6. stills only. and proud of it. f*ck "video in *every camera*".


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

picperfect said:


> please explain. what? how exactly? i call it total BS.


If the mirrorless camera is focusing with a sensor that has lower noise (higher sensitivity), the sensor has more room to temporarily increase the brightness in the focused area, e.g. let the camera "see" the contrast more clearly when it is focusing.
It is like calling a faster lens focusing better in low light total BS lol - as it helps the exact same way - except having a faster lens is an advantage for both a DSLR and a mirrorless camera in low-light.
Also true for video AF as well (but in that case, it cannot increase the brightness).


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## picperfect (Apr 22, 2020)

padam said:


> If the mirrorless camera is focusing with a sensor that has lower noise (higher sensitivity), the sensor has more room to temporarily increase the brightness in the focused area,


what? 1. lower noise = speculation. 2. temporarily increase brightness (while focusding)? never heard if that. solid links/evidence?


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## yeahright (Apr 22, 2020)

padam said:


> If the mirrorless camera is focusing with a sensor that has lower noise (higher sensitivity), the sensor has more room to temporarily increase the brightness in the focused area, e.g. let the camera "see" the contrast more clearly when it is focusing.
> It is like calling a faster lens focusing better in low light total BS lol - as it helps the exact same way - except having a faster lens is an advantage for both a DSLR and a mirrorless camera in low-light.
> Also true for video AF as well (but in that case, it cannot increase the brightness).


why should the R6 noise over a certain area on the sensor be better than the R5 noise over the same area?


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

picperfect said:


> what? 1. lower noise = speculation. 2. temporarily increase brightness (while focusding)? never heard if that. solid links/evidence?


I guess you haven't used a Canon mirrorless camera, so you are commenting on something that you don't have any experience whatsoever.


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## padam (Apr 22, 2020)

picperfect said:


> i useCanon MILCs for more than 5 years now. lol. RP is not good enough. not nearly.


Then I don't understand as you can see what it does when it focuses in low light, it brightens it up temporarily in Single Shot. The faster the lens aperture and the better high ISO the camera has, it sees a cleaner image and it focuses easier, so the conditions where it needs an AF assist lamp are less. Again it depends on many factors, but having a sensor that has lower high ISO noise when viewing on the LCD or EVF certainly helps.
Because the lenses have heavy vignetting wide-open, the central area will have the best chance of getting focus.


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## SteveC (Apr 22, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I think they are going to wait and see what mirrorless adoption looks like prior to committing to a 5D Mark V. And if they do release one I think it would be with an RF mount so you get the best of both worlds...OVF with RF mount and EF backwards compatibility with the adapter. Of course they did just announce their latest Cinema camera and it is still just EF or PL mount so maybe there is a bit of EF life left.



If they do this, it cannot be a DSLR. The R lenses would have to sit where the mirror would otherwise go.

That would make it a 5D Mark V mirrorless, which would basically make it an R5


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## Architect1776 (Apr 23, 2020)

padam said:


> While I don't think there is an absolute sweet spot per se, the R5 45MP sensor is much more of a sweet spot for the R system itself, the majority of the native lenses can resolve far beyond that resolution as you can see on opticallimits, for instance. (And it is still tracks at 12fps mechanical, so it does not hurt speed either)
> Since all pixels on the sensor are have the DPAF capability, it might also have its advantages in terms of tracking AF, subject recognition, etc. depending on how the sensor is being utilised in that state.



I guess sweet is meant as file size vs resolution.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

Maximilian said:


> I still wonder what performance that 20 MP sensor will deliver...
> If it's not so well at high ISO this body still gets me puzzeled.



I predicted a few days ago that it would be the 1D X Mark II sensor, which isn't half bad in low light.



Joules said:


> Well if it isn't the 1DX III sensor, it has to be the 1DX II one, right? But if they had to reuse a sensor, why not just the 5D IV one? That already has the redesigned micro lenses and everything.



The 5D IV sensor may be more expensive to produce than the 1D X II, or maybe they've already got a huge stock of the 1D X II sensors already lying around? 

It also takes longer to read out and process the data from a 30+ MP sensor than from a 20 MP sensor.




PureClassA said:


> No that would cost too much money. If you want to minimize the costs and maximize profit margins in your manufacturing process, then you use the same parts in as many devices as possible. The 1DX3 is what it is not because of it's sensor. It's everything else around the sensor. Particularly it's body, power, and insanity level AF system, which the R6 wont have anything like.



The only apparent difference between the sensor in the 1D X Mark II and 1D X Mark III is the low pass/anti-aliasing filter in front of it. Maybe they've already got a bunch of the older filters?


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## Architect1776 (Apr 23, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I think in your case then Canon expects you to get the RP or R for now and maybe an as yet unannounced R8 (see my completely speculatory model list below) or the R5 sometime in the future:
> 
> R1 - 1DX Mirrorless Replacement
> R5 - 5D Replacement
> ...



I absolutely need IBIS.
Guess what?
RP and R do not have IBIS, You are so clueless what I need or want so do not pretend to tell me what I need or want as if you are all knowing. I did not ask for your opinion as to what I want thus refrain from telling me what I want.


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## Treyarnon (Apr 23, 2020)

padam said:


> There is no point in changing the AA filter, it has been improved on the 1DX3 compared to its predecessor so why would they not use it, only the micro lenses need to be rearranged for mirrorless if they want to re-use it.


Thank you - that makes a lot of sense. For some reason I forgot the 1DX3 has a mirror!


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## Treyarnon (Apr 23, 2020)

The current rumors for the R5 and R6 are making them sound very video centric. The two main questions in my mind are:

1) The R5 sounds like a fantastic camera, but will the price be pumped up by the video specs?

2) The R6 sound like it might be around the right price point, but will the stills image quality be crippled by the video specs?

As as stills shooter, I wonder if either of these cameras will be for me... Time will of course tell.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I agree, I don't see where this camera fits in the Canon lineup UNLESS the target is for great low light performance and / or video. The 20mp makes no sense to me after seeing the 32mp APS-C sensors in the 90d & M6 II. I also don't see why they would repurpose an old sensor design in the new R body line at this point. I made sense with the R & RP as transitional cameras, but not in the "new" R family. Be interesting to see if there some unique aspect of this camera or if was just designed to hit a price point. Time will tell.



It's designed to hit a price point.



PureClassA said:


> Canon has stated that the R and RP were more-or-less place holders. Just to get a MILC out into the market in order to start building up a library of glass. Doesn't seem like we will see second iterations of those bodies/models



They haven't really said that directly, but everyone else has said it for them.



deanmejos said:


> My thoughts on the sensor:
> 1DX III sensor, different (inferior) low-pass filter or an updated 1DX II sensor.



The 1D X Mark III sensor is pretty much the 1D X Mark II sensor with an upgraded low-pass filter.



Treyarnon said:


> Assuming this *rumour* is accurate....
> Does anyone know why Canon might design two different 20MP FF sensors at practically the same time? What will one sensor do that the other cannot I wonder?
> I do have to say - if Canon are designing a new sensor specifically for the R6 (rather than using an existing part), I am rather puzzelled why go for 20MP?? Upper 20's to lower 30's would make much more sense to me.



Who said they designed a new sensor for it? Maybe they're reusing the 1D X Mark II sensor/low-pass filter?


slclick said:


> How about using the 1DX3 sensor but with AA changes?



a/k/a the 1D X Mark II sensor? The only significant difference between the two seems to be the low-pass filter. 



herein2020 said:


> But it still does not make sense from that standpoint. Every single other camera maker's entry level FF non video oriented body has higher MP sensors typically between 24MP and 36MP. Entry level shooters are probably the largest group that cares about sensor resolution. Every YouTubber will tell those entry level shooters to stay away from the R6 because of it's "low" resolution not to mention the bar to entry for Canon mirrorless FF is a lot more expensive than it used to be due to RF lens costs.



Well, if they were to use the 1D X Mark II sensor, with its "fuzzier" low-pass filter, then the low cost RF lenses that are supposed to come out later this year make a lot more sense, since a 20 MP sensor with a fairly strong AA filter doesn't need the razor-sharp high-dollar RF glass.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I 100% agree with you on the actual functional difference between 20MP and 24MP....the problem once again will be the marketing. There is no way Canon will live down a 20MP sensor in a non video oriented body. Marketing hype is a real thing...especially at these price points. Now one other scenario that would make perfect sense is simply that the Canon Rumor is wrong and the sensor is indeed 24 or more MP.
> 
> YouTubbers were even complaining about 20MP in the 1DXIII a body which is well understood and for a niche that is well known; and not one of them will probably ever own it or shoot a sporting event yet they still complained. Imagine if this thing releases as anything but video focused with a 20MP sensor.



Think back to when the 6D came out. Wasn't it the first Canon FF body to have built-in WiFi and GPS? It was introduced in 2012, later in the the same year that the 1D X and the 5D Mark III were offered without either of those functions built-in. They required (expensive!) add-on modules to have WiFi or GPS functionality.

Now, fast forward back to to 2020.

What if the R6 comes out as the first body with a fully integrated built-in user interface with Canon's new cloud-based photo sharing application? 20 MP may be the sweet spot for file size in that scenario.

Just as built-in WiFi and GPS made a lot of entry level buyers think they were getting something they really valued that the 5DIII and 1D X buyers were not getting in 2012, maybe Canon thinks this feature will resonate with younger, entry level buyers who want their cameras to be more "connected" so they can share images instantly like they've always been able to do with their phones?


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> YouTubbers were even complaining about 20MP in the 1DXIII a body which is well understood and for a niche that is well known; and not one of them will probably ever own it or shoot a sporting event yet they still complained. Imagine if this thing releases as anything but video focused with a 20MP sensor.



They weren't really complaining, they were just being fanboys and trying to make anything they will never be able to afford look bad when compared to their toys.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

koch1948 said:


> “R5 - 5D Replacement”……
> Wouldn’t the R5 accept EF lenses natively instead of using adapters if it were truly a 5D replacement?



The R5 accepts EF lenses with a _native_ adapter. The RF lens protocol is the EF lens protocol on steroids. 

EF lenses lose none of the functionality they have on EF bodies when they are used on RF bodies. 

Zilch.

There are no communication translations that have to be made as when one is adapting Canon EF lenses to Sony E-mount cameras..


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## definedphotography (Apr 23, 2020)

picperfect said:


> not interested in either R5 nor R6. stills only. and proud of it. f*ck "video in *every camera*".



You might be waiting a *very* long time for a stills only camera in this day & age


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I think they are going to wait and see what mirrorless adoption looks like prior to committing to a 5D Mark V. And if they do release one I think it would be with an RF mount so you get the best of both worlds...OVF with RF mount and EF backwards compatibility with the adapter. Of course they did just announce their latest Cinema camera and it is still just EF or PL mount so maybe there is a bit of EF life left.



Except there's not enough room in the RF mount for a FF size mirror between the sensor and the lens flange.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

Utonagan said:


> A very short on-line press conf for the R5 and all they talked about for a few seconds are the R5 video specs and to be honest it sounded more like an ad for Red 8k cameras.



It was a press conference originally planned to be held at the NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) trade show, which is all about video.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

picperfect said:


> please explain. what? how exactly? i call it total BS.



Larger pixels give better sensitivity that allows for shorter AF sampling times. That's something Chuck Westfall said more than once.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

yeahright said:


> why should the R6 noise over a certain area on the sensor be better than the R5 noise over the same area?



Because the photosites (a/k/a pixel wells) for a 20 MP FF sensor are a lot larger than the photosites for a 45MP FF sensor?


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## canonnews (Apr 23, 2020)

padam said:


> We can safely assume that it is a slower sensor than the 1DXIII so it won't have the same capabilities.


I don't think that's a safe assumption at all.
but crop for 4k60 is always a possiblity.

the sensor still shoots at 20mp @ 20 fps - it's not exactly a slow sensor.


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## canonnews (Apr 23, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Because the photosites (a/k/a pixel wells) for a 20 MP FF sensor are a lot larger than the photosites for a 45MP FF sensor?



that's a good theory but it really depends on how many pixels canon samples for a "point". it may not make any difference in practicality. If they only sampled one pixel, that would seem odd, because it would be completely unusable at higher ISO's with random noise.

and if it's by sampling, then the difference between the two is negligible because both pixels are covered by 100% microlenses.


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## -pekr- (Apr 23, 2020)

NorthernNovice said:


> I agree with your comment about uneducated buyers wanting more megapixels.
> 
> Thankfully, I have just enough understanding to not want more  I am happy with 20 with better noise and DR.



Uneducated buyers? Go and speak just for yourself. There is absolutly no freaking way, we would go back down to 20mpx, period. R6 be rather very specialised camera, like a video or high iso beast, or it once again smells fishy for Canon. 

They imo just took 1DXIII sensor, maybe did some small modifications and were done with that. They should not call it R6 in the first place imo, because it will only confuse ppl, as some ppl will regard it being mostly a 6DII replacement, whereas for the first time in history with a successor going down by 6mpx.

So, R6 is either going to be a specialised camera, or Canon just took advantage of already existing tech. In both cases, they imo should skip the "6" assignment.


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## yeahright (Apr 23, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Because the photosites (a/k/a pixel wells) for a 20 MP FF sensor are a lot larger than the photosites for a 45MP FF sensor?


Relevant for noise performance ist the sensor area and not the individual pixel area. So if you measure the noise in a portion of the image corresponding to a 1 mm x 1 mm area on the sensor, the noise in same-generation sensors will be essentially the same no matter if there are 20000 or 40000 pixels covering that area. You'll always be able to get the same noise performance out of the sensor with higher pixel density by simply downsampling (a process that reduces the number of pixels while increasing the signal to noise ratio).


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## yeahright (Apr 23, 2020)

canonnews said:


> that's a good theory but it really depends on how many pixels canon samples for a "point". it may not make any difference in practicality. If they only sampled one pixel, that would seem odd, because it would be completely unusable at higher ISO's with random noise.
> 
> and if it's by sampling, then the difference between the two is negligible because both pixels are covered by 100% microlenses.


You can't do AF using a single pixel. The principle of phase-AF (as it is done in DPAF as well as in dedicated AF sensors in DSLRs) is to look at how many pixels an out-of-focus contrasty structure (e.g. a line) is shifted when comparing light coming from two sides of the lens. In DPAF that means comparing a small part of the image coming from the left of the lens to that image coming from the right of the lens. But you need a small portion of the image covering multiple pixels to determine the shift between these two for performing AF. A single pixel will not do. That is why e.g. the EOS R claims 5655 AF-points on its 30 MP sensor.


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## Treyarnon (Apr 23, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Larger pixels give better sensitivity that allows for shorter AF sampling times. That's something Chuck Westfall said more than once.


Are we saying that DPAF is going to have focusing issues when used on sensors with a higher pixel density than 20MP FF? 
Does this mean that for higher resolutions, the DSLR (with mirror and phase detect AF) will be superior??
Does the M6 mk2 have problems with focusing speed & accuracy?


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## -pekr- (Apr 23, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I predicted a few days ago that it would be the 1D X Mark II sensor, which isn't half bad in low light.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Eh, what do you consider actually being a sensor? When e.g. one version might have on-chip ADC and the second one does not? For me, it it the ecosystem of a sensor, ADC, memory interface and cpu to say the least. Hence your statement is imo a big generalisation. My opinion is, that 1DXII and 1DXIII sensors are a complete different technology and even your 30+MP vs 20MP read out speed assumption might not be as easy as you suggest.


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## Wikzo (Apr 23, 2020)

As someone planning to upgrade into fullframe and mirrorless (from T6i), I have a hard time figuring out whether EOS R or EOS R6 is the better option for me.

I don't care about video at all, so it's mostly about picture quality, ergonomics and price.

R5 is probably going to be way out of my budget, so what's the next-best option? Is this correctly understood:

*R5 > R > R6 > RP*

R:

Has higher MP count
Has top-screen
Has touch bar
Might have better/bigger build quality than R6?

R6:

Has IBIS
Has dual card slots
Faster fps

I'm a bit new into Canon cameras, so which one do you think is the more "pro" version? And what about pricing? Are they even in the same category?

For me, a good EVF and ergonomics are important. If the R6 has a similar joystick as the R5 (instead of R's touch bar), that would be quite nice. But if the rumored 20MP are correct, it will feel quite strange for me to go from 24MP with my T6i and to 20MP. I know that R6's picture quality is way better, but still, I like to be able to crop in from time to time. The R's 30MP count seems better suited for this.

May can't come soon enough


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## WelshTony (Apr 23, 2020)

I’m sure I am not the only “stills only” photographer who was disappointed with the “press conference” on Monday where the emphasis was the R5’s video capabilities. This has got me thinking whether I should start considering the R6 instead of the expensive R5 (I reckon £4K). However, I am very disappointed if the 20MP rumours are true, that would be a big drop from my 5D IV. Even the 6D Mk II has 26.2 full frame. It seems like a backward step from Canon. Also want to know what AF capabilities will be adopted from the R5 i.e. eye tracking (human and animal), or will the camera be “dumbed” down even more for the target audience it is rumoured to be aimed at?


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## SecureGSM (Apr 23, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Uneducated buyers? Go and speak just for yourself. *There is absolutly no freaking way, we would go back down to 20mpx, period.* R6 be rather very specialised camera, like a video or high iso beast, or it once again smells fishy for Canon.
> 
> They imo just took 1DXIII sensor, maybe did some small modifications and were done with that. They should not call it R6 in the first place imo, because it will only confuse ppl, as some ppl will regard it being mostly a 6DII replacement, whereas for the first time in history with a successor going down by 6mpx.
> 
> So, R6 is either going to be a specialised camera, or Canon just took advantage of already existing tech. In both cases, they imo should skip the "6" assignment.


WE? Who are you referring to? speaking with such an authority... I understand that you are a photographer by trade and not a marketing pro..
You have made no sense from a commercial perspective. You are looking at a "stepping stone", a bridging product targeting market newcomers, phone camera converts and the x-brand ship jumping crowd.

it is not for you and not for me.


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## jolyonralph (Apr 23, 2020)

Joules said:


> Well if it isn't the 1DX III sensor, it has to be the 1DX II one, right?



No, it's far more likely to be a new one.


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## -pekr- (Apr 23, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> WE? Who are you referring to? speaking with such an authority... I understand that you are a photographer by trade and not a marketing pro..
> You have made no sense from a commercial perspective. You a looking at a "stepping stone", a bridging product targeting market newcomers, phone camera converts and the x-brand ship jumping crowd.
> 
> it is not for you and not for me.



Look, it's not my business that some other users might speak for others, but that's not the case this time at least  In terms of our studio, there is multiple ppl, hence "WE".

As for the argument itself, I might have it well funded. The single fact, that multiple users are confused about the R6, speaks for itself. If R6 is supposed to be a 6DII successor in a mirrorless form, 20mpx is a wrong message to those wishing to upgrade from 6DII or those wishing for a 5DIV counterpart in a mirrorless form.

And if Canon is trying to create a completly new category, e.g. some video/low-light stills hybrid camera, then the R6 name is wrong too, as it will interfere with a 6D mindset of an entry level FF camera, which it is not going to be, most probably due to guessed price so far.


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## jolyonralph (Apr 23, 2020)

WelshTony said:


> I’m sure I am not the only “stills only” photographer who was disappointed with the “press conference” on Monday where the emphasis was the R5’s video capabilities.



Well, the video was timed to coincide with what would have been the NAB show, so obviously this announcement was going to be a video-focused announcement.

It doesn't mean you can't take photos with it.

Remember, the technology put in the camera to allow 8K raw video recording is EXACTLY THE SAME that's required to make a still camera that shoots high-speed high resolution individual frames. There's no huge additional cost for adding video.

If Canon were to produce a model of the EOS R5 without video support it would cost MORE than it does with the video - because they insides would be virtually identical (they'd save a little money on testing time and maybe one less button) but they would lose one significant chunk of their market so they'd sell fewer and have to price it accordingly.

Every person who buys an R5 for the video functions helps subsidize the cost for those of you who will never use it.

Now, I don't want to hear anyone complain about "unnecessary video functions" again.


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## Chris.Chapterten (Apr 23, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> Well, the video was timed to coincide with what would have been the NAB show, so obviously this announcement was going to be a video-focused announcement.
> 
> It doesn't mean you can't take photos with it.
> 
> ...


All true, but people will still complain unfortunately


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## KristinnKr (Apr 23, 2020)

As an anecdotal consumer possibly considering buying into a full-frame mirrorless system in the next few years: There is *absolutely* *no way* I'd consider a 20 MP camera at a 2000 USD price point. This isn't 2012 anymore.

From how similar the camera seems to the Canon RP I'm guessing it's a more or less direct replacement, maybe bumping the price from 1000 USD to 1200 USD, with the two cameras co-existing as RP stock is sold off, perhaps at a very slightly lowered price point.


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## Treyarnon (Apr 23, 2020)

Wikzo said:


> As someone planning to upgrade into fullframe and mirrorless (from T6i), I have a hard time figuring out whether EOS R or EOS R6 is the better option for me.
> 
> I don't care about video at all, so it's mostly about picture quality, ergonomics and price.
> 
> ...


 
If you don't need the second card slot, look for a good deal on an 'R' would be my suggestion. 
The second card slot is not a big deal unless you shoot professionally (and then it is a big deal).

We really should wait untill the R5 and R6 to be fully announced before judging them, but if you need that second card slot, then the R and RP are out. The R5 looks good, but I am worried that the video features will cause a price hike. The R6 is difficult to see exactly how it will fit into the range - It seems to be a mis-mash of entry level and pro features, but it only makes sense right now as (another) video centric body. 
Who knows, *I'm only guessing here*, but its possible that after 2 years and 4 RF bodies, best FF options may still be the 5D4 and 5Ds...

20MP is certainly *enouph* to make great prints. However more MP can be an advantage, and the trade offs for more MP are very small until you start going silly with the numbers. Will this new 20MP sensor manage better IQ than the 30MP of the R & 5D4?


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## SecureGSM (Apr 23, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Look, it's not my business that some other users might speak for others, but that's not the case this time at least  In terms of our studio, there is multiple ppl, hence "WE".
> 
> As for the argument itself, I might have it well funded. The single fact, that multiple users are confused about the R6, speaks for itself. If R6 is supposed to be a 6DII successor in a mirrorless form, 20mpx is a wrong message to those wishing to upgrade from 6DII or those wishing for a 5DIV counterpart in a mirrorless form.
> 
> And if Canon is trying to create a completly new category, e.g. some video/low-light stills hybrid camera, then the R6 name is wrong too, as it will interfere with a 6D mindset of an entry level FF camera, which it is not going to be, most probably due to guessed price so far.


noooo... you still not getting it. R6 is not for those with Canon FF cameras already in their hands. never mind. step up from 6 is 5


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## SecureGSM (Apr 23, 2020)

KristinnKr said:


> As an anecdotal consumer possibly considering buying into a full-frame mirrorless system in the next few years: There is *absolutely* *no way* I'd consider a 20 MP camera at a 2000 USD price point. This isn't 2012 anymore.
> 
> From how similar the camera seems to the Canon RP I'm guessing it's a more or less direct replacement, maybe bumping the price from 1000 USD to 1200 USD, with the two cameras co-existing as RP stock is sold off, perhaps at a very slightly lowered price point.


how about $1450 in 5-6 months from launch?


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## victorshikhman (Apr 23, 2020)

KristinnKr said:


> As an anecdotal consumer possibly considering buying into a full-frame mirrorless system in the next few years: There is *absolutely* *no way* I'd consider a 20 MP camera at a 2000 USD price point. This isn't 2012 anymore.
> 
> From how similar the camera seems to the Canon RP I'm guessing it's a more or less direct replacement, maybe bumping the price from 1000 USD to 1200 USD, with the two cameras co-existing as RP stock is sold off, perhaps at a very slightly lowered price point.



You wouldn't buy a Canon 1DXII/1DXIII for $2k? You wouldn't buy a Nikon D5/D6 for $2k? Both of these pro lines are 20MP sensors, and I've never heard the pros who use them to pay their rent complain about MPs. 90% of display mediums these days probably wouldn't show much difference between a 12MP and 40MP sensor. Plenty of great photography being done on iPhones, after all, and while low light is a problem, hardly anyone complains they're not enough MP.


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## canonnews (Apr 23, 2020)

WelshTony said:


> I’m sure I am not the only “stills only” photographer who was disappointed with the “press conference” on Monday where the emphasis was the R5’s video capabilities.


I'm not sure why you'd be disappointed when it was a press conference because NAB was canceled and was called a livestream press conference for professional video and broadcast.

It would have been VERY weird for Canon to talk about it's stills performance during that press conference.


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## 12Broncos (Apr 23, 2020)

Completely frustrating! Announce the R5 and R6 at the same time. Quit stalling, we've been waiting for a camera like the R5 for a long time, imo you should've announced it on Monday. I'm not asking for a release, I realize the pandemic is going to cause delays. You wonder why Sony is catching up in sales. People don't want to wait seventeen years for an announcement and another six years for a release.


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## mariosk1gr (Apr 23, 2020)

The EOS R6 in my opinion will use the same sensor as 1dx mark III. I think the target group for this camera is mainly photographers who need a fast camera and small file sizes in r&g situations such as photoreportage, sports, events, concerts etc. It will be a 1st baby 1dx with rf mount. This will provide Canon feedback to move to their R1 flagship camera on the near future.


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## victorshikhman (Apr 23, 2020)

It's interesting that no one has yet considered this may be a mirrorless replacement for both the 6D AND 7D lines. That would account for the dual card slots and lower MP in exchange for higher fps. Those sports/nature 7DII shooters are at the very tail end of their body lifecycle. Yes, the birders always could use more MPs to crop, but they did just fine with the 7D, although the crop gave more reach. If they can get decent enough build quality, the R6 could hit all these market segments - semi-pro FF under $2k, sports/nature, YouTuber/light video creatives.


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## WelshTony (Apr 23, 2020)

What I find concerning from the original post, it states "Build Quality not as good as R5" - Question is, how "poor" is the build quality? why would canon put out a "sub-standard" camera if they want to attract more customers?


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## SecureGSM (Apr 23, 2020)

mariosk1gr said:


> The EOS R6 in my opinion will use the same sensor as 1dx mark III. I think the target group for this camera is mainly photographers who need a fast camera and small file sizes in r&g situations such as photoreportage, sports, events, concerts etc. It will be a 1st baby 1dx with rf mount. This will provide Canon feedback to move to their R1 flagship camera on the near future.


Six series being a baby 1 series? All at around two grand a pop. Okaaay. 
I am sorry to ask: Do you even understand how fast the viewfinder needs to be In order to keep up with a fast action shooting? Low latency is the key word. Now read again what is the rumoured specs around R6 viewfinder.... not even close.


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## SecureGSM (Apr 23, 2020)

WelshTony said:


> What I find concerning from the original post, it states "Build Quality not as good as R5" - Question is, how "poor" is the build quality? why would canon put out a "sub-standard" camera if they want to attract more customers?


Where do you read substandard? It is lower than 5 series. It is a 6series quality build. As in RP or 6D II. Yeah?


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## Pape (Apr 23, 2020)

victorshikhman said:


> It's interesting that no one has yet considered this may be a mirrorless replacement for both the 6D AND 7D lines. That would account for the dual card slots and lower MP in exchange for higher fps. Those sports/nature 7DII shooters are at the very tail end of their body lifecycle. Yes, the birders always could use more MPs to crop, but they did just fine with the 7D, although the crop gave more reach. If they can get decent enough build quality, the R6 could hit all these market segments - semi-pro FF under $2k, sports/nature, YouTuber/light video creatives.


yah it would be cool if it would focus on f16 then could put 2x converter to 100-500mm .would be lot like 7d with 100-400mm. 
And then nice landscape camera like 6D with pixel shift.


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## SteveC (Apr 23, 2020)

WelshTony said:


> I’m sure I am not the only “stills only” photographer who was disappointed with the “press conference” on Monday where the emphasis was the R5’s video capabilities. This has got me thinking whether I should start considering the R6 instead of the expensive R5 (I reckon £4K). However, I am very disappointed if the 20MP rumours are true, that would be a big drop from my 5D IV. Even the 6D Mk II has 26.2 full frame. It seems like a backward step from Canon. Also want to know what AF capabilities will be adopted from the R5 i.e. eye tracking (human and animal), or will the camera be “dumbed” down even more for the target audience it is rumoured to be aimed at?



The event was aimed at video people, who don't care about stills.

Rest assured there's a lot of goodies here for stills people who don't care about video. When Canon talks to them, that's what they'll hear about.

(I'm mostly stills, but do take videos from time to time.)


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## SteveC (Apr 23, 2020)

victorshikhman said:


> It's interesting that no one has yet considered this may be a mirrorless replacement for both the 6D AND 7D lines. That would account for the dual card slots and lower MP in exchange for higher fps. Those sports/nature 7DII shooters are at the very tail end of their body lifecycle. Yes, the birders always could use more MPs to crop, but they did just fine with the 7D, although the crop gave more reach. If they can get decent enough build quality, the R6 could hit all these market segments - semi-pro FF under $2k, sports/nature, YouTuber/light video creatives.



Unless I'm misunderstanding you, this doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, at least as far as the "7D replacement" goes. By the time you crop a 20mp FF image down to APS-C size, you're looking at 7.8 MP, and I doubt the birders would care for that, when they currently have 20.2. They'd have to get closer (or an even longer lens) to get back to where they are now with the 7D.

By buying this camera, they'd lose almost precisely the entire benefit of the crop.


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## cpsico (Apr 23, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


 I read yesterday the Canon or six will be using the same sensor as the 1 DX Mark III, I would consider it a big win if we got the sensor from the 1DX Mark two instead that would still be a very capable very good sensor


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

yeahright said:


> Relevant for noise performance ist the sensor area and not the individual pixel area. So if you measure the noise in a portion of the image corresponding to a 1 mm x 1 mm area on the sensor, the noise in same-generation sensors will be essentially the same no matter if there are 20000 or 40000 pixels covering that area. You'll always be able to get the same noise performance out of the sensor with higher pixel density by simply downsampling (a process that reduces the number of pixels while increasing the signal to noise ratio).



That's all good in theory except that large photosites DO have larger full well capacity, which means for the purpose of AF there's no penalty for increasing amplification and when you average out the noise over multiple pixels you'll have better AF sensitivity with shorter sampling (i.e. exposure) times.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

WelshTony said:


> I’m sure I am not the only “stills only” photographer who was disappointed with the “press conference” on Monday where the emphasis was the R5’s video capabilities. This has got me thinking whether I should start considering the R6 instead of the expensive R5 (I reckon £4K). However, I am very disappointed if the 20MP rumours are true, that would be a big drop from my 5D IV. Even the 6D Mk II has 26.2 full frame. It seems like a backward step from Canon. Also want to know what AF capabilities will be adopted from the R5 i.e. eye tracking (human and animal), or will the camera be “dumbed” down even more for the target audience it is rumoured to be aimed at?




Keep in mind that the press conference was originally planned to take place at the NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) trade show, so of course it's going to be video centric in terms of what they mention about the R5.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Look, it's not my business that some other users might speak for others, but that's not the case this time at least  In terms of our studio, there is multiple ppl, hence "WE".
> 
> As for the argument itself, I might have it well funded. The single fact, that multiple users are confused about the R6, speaks for itself. If R6 is supposed to be a 6DII successor in a mirrorless form, 20mpx is a wrong message to those wishing to upgrade from 6DII or those wishing for a 5DIV counterpart in a mirrorless form.
> 
> And if Canon is trying to create a completly new category, e.g. some video/low-light stills hybrid camera, then the R6 name is wrong too, as it will interfere with a 6D mindset of an entry level FF camera, which it is not going to be, most probably due to guessed price so far.



The difference in overall "sharpness" between the 1D X Mark II and 1D X Mark III with identical sensor resolutions is palpable when used with the highest quality lenses.

Canon claims the new low-pass filter on the 1D X Mark III gives it the same resolution ability in terms of lines per mm on a test chart as a 24 mp sensor using their older low-pass filter technology. So before you totally excoriate Canon for reducing the 26 MP sensor resolution of the 6D Mark II down to 20 MP for the R6, *perhaps you should wait and actually look at some real world examples of the same scenes shot by both cameras with the same lenses?* The results may surprise you.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> All true, but people will still complain unfortunately



Some people will complain no matter what they do.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

Treyarnon said:


> 20MP is certainly *enouph* to make great prints. However more MP can be an advantage, and the trade offs for more MP are very small until you start going silly with the numbers. Will this new 20MP sensor manage better IQ than the 30MP of the R & 5D4?



Probably not, but it may manage better IQ than the 26 MP 6D Mark II, which is the target for which most of us see it is shooting.


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## tomri (Apr 23, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Where do you read substandard? It is lower than 5 series. It is a 6series quality build. As in RP or 6D II. Yeah?


The 6d’s build quality is sub-standard, considering it sold for 3200,- Euro initially with the L kit lens. Just look at the cover material used for the 2 screens, they scratched much more quickly than on the 40d which I used much more often; the feel of the thumb wheel and the flush buttons on the back. If the R6 is anything like that, it wont sell me into a mirrorless system which is an investment of several thousand Euros after all. Especially if the sensor has not improved much.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

victorshikhman said:


> It's interesting that no one has yet considered this may be a mirrorless replacement for both the 6D AND 7D lines. That would account for the dual card slots and lower MP in exchange for higher fps. Those sports/nature 7DII shooters are at the very tail end of their body lifecycle. Yes, the birders always could use more MPs to crop, but they did just fine with the 7D, although the crop gave more reach. If they can get decent enough build quality, the R6 could hit all these market segments - semi-pro FF under $2k, sports/nature, YouTuber/light video creatives.



The 7D Mark II has the same pixel density as the 50 MP 5Ds/5Ds R.

20 MP _before_ the crop is far less dense than 20 MP _after_ the crop. 2.56X less dense, to be precise.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

WelshTony said:


> What I find concerning from the original post, it states "Build Quality not as good as R5" - Question is, how "poor" is the build quality? why would canon put out a "sub-standard" camera if they want to attract more customers?



Wah, wah, wah!!! Why can't I get Rolex quality for a Timex price?


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## SecureGSM (Apr 24, 2020)

tomri said:


> The 6d’s build quality is sub-standard, considering it sold for 3200,- Euro initially with the L kit lens. Just look at the cover material used for the 2 screens, they scratched much more quickly than on the 40d which I used much more often; the feel of the thumb wheel and the flush buttons on the back. If the R6 is anything like that, it wont sell me into a mirrorless system which is an investment of several thousand Euros after all. Especially if the sensor has not improved much.


Just a couple of things:
1. I bought glass screen protectors for both of my 5d4s @ around $1 per each. Let me tell you: this is the best $2 I ever spent in my life. Both protectors are now scratched, dinted and cracked but the lcd screen behind is in a pristine condition. I have replaced protectors twice already. It is just works. I suggest you do the same for your cameras.
2. 6Ds sold for 3200 Euro? Ouch... they are more like $1000 a pop online these days.
btw, 6DII build quality is quite good. I used one shortly. It does not feels cheap or unusable. Certainly is quite a camera.


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## -pekr- (Apr 24, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The difference in overall "sharpness" between the 1D X Mark II and 1D X Mark III with identical sensor resolutions is palpable when used with the highest quality lenses.
> 
> Canon claims the new low-pass filter on the 1D X Mark III gives it the same resolution ability in terms of lines per mm on a test chart as a 24 mp sensor using their older low-pass filter technology. So before you totally excoriate Canon for reducing the 26 MP sensor resolution of the 6D Mark II down to 20 MP for the R6, *perhaps you should wait and actually look at some real world examples of the same scenes shot by both cameras with the same lenses?* The results may surprise you.



So much wording, and yet you completly forgot one argument - the space to crop.


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## Pape (Apr 24, 2020)

I wonder how peoples would whine if R1 would be 12mpixel to give 16bit electronic shutter and 100 fp/s


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## BillB (Apr 24, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> So much wording, and yet you completly forgot one argument - the space to crop.


If it has the same measured resolution, why couldn’t you crop the same amount?


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## padam (Apr 24, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I don't think that's a safe assumption at all.
> but crop for 4k60 is always a possiblity.
> 
> the sensor still shoots at 20mp @ 20 fps - it's not exactly a slow sensor.


I still think it is, as the the 1DXIII can shoot shoot video with the full width of the sensor at 60fps.
This won't be able to do that.
So while they can both shoot the same 20fps for stills with electronic shutter, the rolling shutter is going to be worse on the EOS R6.

The question is, how much worse.

Here are some rolling shutter numbers collected from the three of the most recent Canon FF cameras in milliseconds.
('up to' means it remains the same, when it is 24p, 30p, 60p, etc.)

EOS RP
1080p FF up to 60p 11ms
UHD4K crop 33ms

EOS R
1080p FF up to 60p 14ms
UHD4K crop 28ms

1DX Mark III
FF 1080p FF up to 60p 10ms
C4K FF (5.5K RAW) 30p 28ms
C4K FF (5.5K RAW) 60p 14ms
C4K crop up to 60p 13ms

I guess the EOS R6 readout speed is going to be somewhere between the second two.

From these measurements taken, I think it quite interesting, that the 1DX III full sensor mode mode with higher frame rates have the AF disabled (Canon says due to lack of processing power) but in this mode, the rolling shutter also gets to be half as much.
I think the behaviour changes depending on the recording mode selected in-camera. So switching to MF or using MF lenses lenses won't change it, it would be quite cool, if it did, as it would become a lot closer to cinema cameras.
This indicates that for video, in some cases, disabling the AF and switching to a different processing mode seems to help with the readout speed for some reason.

So we could see it disabled on the EOS R6 as well in some modes.


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## mariosk1gr (Apr 24, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Six series being a baby 1 series? All at around two grand a pop. Okaaay.
> I am sorry to ask: Do you even understand how fast the viewfinder needs to be In order to keep up with a fast action shooting? Low latency is the key word. Now read again what is the rumoured specs around R6 viewfinder.... not even close.


So why Canon provides 12/20 fps when there is going to be so much latency as you believe. It won't be a 1dx mark iii performance wise. Rumours are rumours and we just speculating right now... but the latency has to be improved on milc cameras with newer bodies and fw updates as it has already (at some level ofc) on eos R. Also don't forget that Canon is a company that has used many times the same sensors on their bodies. As for 6 series you mention surprised, a year ago you wouldn't believe what Canon did with 1Dx Mark III, R5, cinema series etc...


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## padam (Apr 24, 2020)

As it said in the article: "lower your expectations" so there will be more backlash on this one, just like other Canon cameras, but it won't change they just work nicely.

Since the R5 looks like a heavily revised and beefed up EOS R body, and we know there is no top LCD on this one, it might be more logical to see the EOS RP as the 'basis' for some of the specs and design, so:
More compact with a smaller battery, lower dynamic range sensor, no Canon Log, 8-bit internal IPB only codecs with 8-bit 4:2:2 external output, DPAF disabled in some modes, no joystick, lower cost EVF and screen etc.

But it will shoot 4k60p, it will shoot 12/20fps stills, it will have dual card slots and it will have the IBIS in it, it will be good at high ISO, and it will cost a lot less than the EOS R5, maybe they are designing it to be 2000$ or less.

And they will have much cheaper RF lenses to go with it as well.


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## SecureGSM (Apr 24, 2020)

mariosk1gr said:


> So why Canon provides 12/20 fps when there is going to be so much latency as you believe. It won't be a 1dx mark iii performance wise. Rumours are rumours and we just speculating right now... but the latency has to be improved on milc cameras with newer bodies and fw updates as it has already (at some level ofc) on eos R. Also don't forget that Canon is a company that has used many times the same sensors on their bodies. As for 6 series you mention surprised, a year ago you wouldn't believe what Canon did with 1Dx Mark III, R5, cinema series etc...


I had to read your post 3 times and I cannot squeeze a drop of a sense out the entire post. I am sorry. It did not work. I have no doubt that your photography skills are excellent. Please do what you do best.
Did I mention that your photography skills a great?


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## cpsico (Apr 24, 2020)

This could be a great camera if it doesn't follow the path of the 6D MarkII. Canon terminally crippled that camera with an APSC auto focus system, shoddy sensor with poor dynamic range, and then a camera with wonderful ergonomics and battery life. It was a Frankenstein creation of nightmares


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## padam (Apr 24, 2020)

cpsico said:


> This could be a great camera if it doesn't follow the path of the 6D MarkII. Canon terminally crippled that camera with an APSC auto focus system, shoddy sensor with poor dynamic range, and then a camera with wonderful ergonomics and battery life. It was a Frankenstein creation of nightmares


The IBIS in this camera will do a handful for extra power draw, so they could certainly make it with an LP-E17 class battery to achieve the worst battery life ever, and heavily limit record times as well, so like with an older Fuji, pretty much everyone has to buy the 200$ vertical battery grip and 50$ battery (plus a few extras) just to make it usable. Pity the camera's hardware development is already finished, so if they read this, they will realise the extra profit opportunity they've missed.


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## cpsico (Apr 24, 2020)

padam said:


> The IBIS in this camera will do a handful for extra power draw, so they could certainly make it with an LP-E17 class battery to achieve the worst battery life ever, and heavily limit record times as well, so like with an older Fuji, pretty much everyone has to buy the 200$ vertical battery grip and 50$ battery (plus a few extras) just to make it usable. Pity the camera's hardware development is already finished, so if they read this, they will realise the extra profit opportunity they've missed.


Hopefully the battery is a good size because this is a wedding photographers dream camera for reception,candies,etc. 20 megapixels is in that just right file size range, and would produce better high ISO then a bigger megapixel camera. I much prefer my 6D to my 5DIV when shooting reception pictures, because of the high ISO capabilities are a little better on the 6D,( don’t kill me this is my opinion) And the Centerpoint is absolutely golden in low light focusing even though it doesn’t have the sophisticated focusing system of the 5DIV the Centerpoint is absolutely golden in low light focusing and is still very useful.


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## HenAyr (Apr 25, 2020)

Concerning announcement timelines for the R5 and R6, I believe Canon are going to make announcements for both of these Cameras in the latter part of May, as they had originally intended.

Canons annoncements will / have been made around the dates of Shows/Exhibitions now cancelled.

So the announcement re the C300 Mark III was made on April 20th via Virtual News Conference.

The dates for the cancelled NAB show was April 18th to Apr 22nd.

Of course because of the Video capabilities of the R5, and because NAB is primarily video related, the R5 got a mention towards the end of the News Conference … but only the specs relevant to the topic i.e. video.

The next show is Photokina , which has been cancelled, but was to due to be held between May27th and May 30th. 
The following is a copy and paste from the Canon Rumors “2020 Trade Show Schedule”

_“Photokina 2020 – Cologne, Germany_
_
May 27, 2020 – May 30, 2019 Cancelled due to coronavirus
_
_Canon has promised to make a splash at the next Photokina.”_

Now the splash Canon refer to I believe is the announcement of the R5 and R6.

Of course happenings in the wider world re covid-19 may influence the above but the logic used for the C300 announcement may hold good for the Photokina dates and the much anticipated formal announcement of the R5 and R6. So watch out for an invitaion to join the next virtual News Conference.


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## KristinnKr (Apr 25, 2020)

victorshikhman said:


> You wouldn't buy a Canon 1DXII/1DXIII for $2k? You wouldn't buy a Nikon D5/D6 for $2k? Both of these pro lines are 20MP sensors, and I've never heard the pros who use them to pay their rent complain about MPs. 90% of display mediums these days probably wouldn't show much difference between a 12MP and 40MP sensor. Plenty of great photography being done on iPhones, after all, and while low light is a problem, hardly anyone complains they're not enough MP.



No I would in fact not buy a bulky 20MP sports camera even if it only cost 2000 USD. The needs of a consumer photographer and those of a professional sports photographer are wildly different. A sports photographer needs to be 100% certain that he is able to get an in-focus image of precise moments, meaning he has a lot of demand on the focusing system and fps count, but publishes his photos as small images in news papers and websites, meaning he doesn't need a lot of resolution. Someone who takes photos of his family, landscapes, and maybe some street photography does not have these hyper-specific demands, and benefits much more from increased resolution. Not just for printing large images, but also cropping, for example if he likes the face and perspective on his child or partner in a wider photo, and wants to print it as a portrait.

I am convinced that releasing the R6 for more than lets say 1300 USD would be a great mistake.


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## Adelino (Apr 25, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Whoops!! Apparently I read right over that. Well then that info is brand new as of this post. That's very interesting then. I can't image what the big difference would be that Canon would make another 20MP sensor on top the one they are already making now.
> 
> I wonder if perhaps IBIS necessitates this? Otherwise I can't imagine what difference in performance ( if any at all) in the sensor itself there will be between the two...
> 
> Or perhaps it's just classified as a new sensor because of IBIS? Someone with more insight than me on that one is gonna have to chime in.


They did call the sensors in the R and the RP "all new" just because they were ever so slightly redesigned for mirrorless so, there's that.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 25, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> So much wording, and yet you completly forgot one argument - the space to crop.



What advantage does 26 MP give you when cropping if there is no more actual detail in the image than the amount of detail a different 20 MP sensor can give you?


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## Michael Clark (Apr 25, 2020)

SwissFrank said:


> The article makes quite clear it's not the same sensor.



The article makes clear it is not the *new* sensor used in the 1D X Mark III released barely two months ago. It says nothing about the possibility that it is another, older 20 MP sensor used by Canon in the past.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 25, 2020)

BillB said:


> If it has the same measured resolution, why couldn’t you crop the same amount?



Yes, in terms of actual lines per image height instead of in terms of how many pixels the same amount of blur is spread across.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 25, 2020)

mariosk1gr said:


> So why Canon provides 12/20 fps when there is going to be so much latency as you believe. It won't be a 1dx mark iii performance wise. Rumours are rumours and we just speculating right now... but the latency has to be improved on milc cameras with newer bodies and fw updates as it has already (at some level ofc) on eos R. Also don't forget that Canon is a company that has used many times the same sensors on their bodies. As for 6 series you mention surprised, a year ago you wouldn't believe what Canon did with 1Dx Mark III, R5, cinema series etc...



There's a big difference between latency and readout speed.

One is about how long it takes the exposure to begin after the button is pressed.

The other has to do with how long it takes to read the sensor when there are no mechanical shutter curtains preventing light from striking the sensor during readout.

With mechanical shutters, it takes about 2.5-3 milliseconds for the shutter curtains to transit the sensor of top tier cameras like the 1D X series or 5D series. With lower tier cameras, it's closer to 3-4.5 milliseconds. The sensor has plenty of time to be read out between frames with a DSLR or even with a mirrorless when using the mechanical shutter by limiting the frame rate (which increases the amount of "dead time" between exposures). Even 16 fps allows 50-60 milliseconds for readout between exposures that only take 2.5-4.5 milliseconds every 62.5 milliseconds.

2.5-4.5 milliseconds for mechanical shutters to transit the sensor is still a lot faster than even 10 milliseconds or so that the fastest sensors can read out in electronic shutter mode.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 25, 2020)

cpsico said:


> This could be a great camera if it doesn't follow the path of the 6D MarkII. Canon terminally crippled that camera with an APSC auto focus system, shoddy sensor with poor dynamic range, and then a camera with wonderful ergonomics and battery life. It was a Frankenstein creation of nightmares



So say all of the Sony fanboys that have never, ever, not even once taken a photo as good as many hundreds of thousands that have been taken by actual photographers using the 6D Mark II.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 25, 2020)

padam said:


> The IBIS in this camera will do a handful for extra power draw, so they could certainly make it with an LP-E17 class battery to achieve the worst battery life ever, and heavily limit record times as well, so like with an older Fuji, pretty much everyone has to buy the 200$ vertical battery grip and 50$ battery (plus a few extras) just to make it usable. Pity the camera's hardware development is already finished, so if they read this, they will realise the extra profit opportunity they've missed.



Or they could compromise on size/weight and use the newer, more powerful version of the LP-E6 that the R is getting which is also described by early rumors as "not the same battery as the 5D Mark IV." 

We'll find out when they make the official announcement.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 25, 2020)

cpsico said:


> Hopefully the battery is a good size because this is a wedding photographers dream camera for reception,candies,etc. 20 megapixels is in that just right file size range, and would produce better high ISO then a bigger megapixel camera. I much prefer my 6D to my 5DIV when shooting reception pictures, because of the high ISO capabilities are a little better on the 6D,( don’t kill me this is my opinion) And the Centerpoint is absolutely golden in low light focusing even though it doesn’t have the sophisticated focusing system of the 5DIV the Centerpoint is absolutely golden in low light focusing and is still very useful.




So which is it?

"a wedding photographers dream camera for reception,candies,etc... (with a) Centerpoint (that) is absolutely golden in low light focusing even though it doesn’t have the sophisticated focusing system of the 5DIV the Centerpoint is absolutely golden in low light focusing and is still very useful."

OR

A "... terminally crippled (-) camera with an APSC auto focus system, (and) shoddy sensor with poor dynamic range?"


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## Del Paso (Apr 25, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> So say all of the Sony fanboys that have never, ever, not even once taken a photo as good as many hundreds of thousands that have been taken by actual photographers using the 6D Mark II.


I also wonder how many who criticize a camera, no matter which brand, have actually used or even held it...
Mea culpa too !


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## padam (Apr 25, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Or they could compromise on size/weight and use the newer, more powerful version of the LP-E6 that the R is getting which is also described by early rumors as "not the same battery as the 5D Mark IV."
> 
> We'll find out when they make the official announcement.


That post was meant to be a joke. However, they are always quite serious about market segmentation, the LP-E6NH battery might be 'reserved' for the higher-class cameras.









Canon EOS R6 IBIS in action


I have now seen the video of the Canon EOS R6 IBIS in action, and it looks really smooth. The EOS R6 also appears to use the same type of grip as the Canon EOS




www.canonrumors.com





And this earlier reliable rumor (With a non-public video) also said grip like the RP, so they are definitely keeping it smaller, lighter and simpler.
So I wouldn't be surprised at all if they actually did something like that, since dual card slots won't leave that much room for a bigger battery, maybe the new version is regarding continous power via USB-C and charging at the same time, which previous cameras were unable to do.

Since I do think it is placed well below the R5, I think they are more likely to be sticking to their old guns regarding the dynamic range, and Canon Log or ALL-I codec would be very surprising for me to see as well, and for these features one would have to go for the R5 or the R instead. But we'll see.


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## Pape (Apr 26, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The article makes clear it is not the *new* sensor used in the 1D X Mark III released barely two months ago. It says nothing about the possibility that it is another, older 20 MP sensor used by Canon in the past.


Maybe its next generation R1 sensor. 
I think if they really want to make this mirrorless work,they need use newest parts available. 
They need get shooting viewvinder lag away with fast read sensor and best processor or two.
I hope viewfinder is new .Good thing it got less resolution than r5 one ,without R5 computers it would lag.
And they need best parts to minimize power consumption too.


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## -pekr- (Apr 26, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> What advantage does 26 MP give you when cropping if there is no more actual detail in the image than the amount of detail a different 20 MP sensor can give you?



You seem to be too much obsesed by the detail. Owning Tamron 17-50/2.8 for APS-C and 24-70/2.8 II for FF, we have never spotted any need to consider the factor of the detail. But shooting crowds at weddings you might be in a need to crop someones hand/head/body entering your image. With weddings, maybe apart from promo or ceremony shoots, things are happening fast, so sometimes you have little time for the proper composition. Stating that, I hate so called spraying and taking 10K+ images home.

For us, any chance to go down to something like 20 or even a tad lower would be very specialised, low light camera, giving 2+ stops of low light performance. But not sure it is easily achievable with the recent tech. Eagerly awaiting performance of the R5 in that regards too, compared to our 5DIV.


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## padam (Apr 26, 2020)

Pape said:


> Maybe its next generation R1 sensor.
> I think if they really want to make this mirrorless work,they need use newest parts available.
> They need get shooting viewvinder lag away with fast read sensor and best processor or two.
> I hope viewfinder is new .Good thing it got less resolution than r5 one ,without R5 computers it would lag.
> And they need best parts to minimize power consumption too.


They don't have to, they only have to step up from the RP, which is the base of this camera. And it will certainly blow it away with the IBIS, dual card slots, quicker frame rates, improved AF and much better video specs.

But because they've added so much to the R5, once again, people are having false hopes about the R6.


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## deanmejos (Apr 26, 2020)

What if it keeps the RP-style body but gets the 6D/6DII D-pad + wheel combo while keeping the two wheels at the top (one next to the shutter button and the other next to the mode dial)? i mean, still no joystick (save that for the higher models), but with the d-pad inside the scroll wheel which now can be customized. kinda like how the R5 got some of its control layout from the 5D series. i'm still not convinced this will get two UHS-II slots though. i know it's 2020, but this is Canon we're talking about (USB2.0 speeds on a USB-C port).


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## Joules (Apr 26, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> You seem to be too much obsesed by the detail.


If you can get basically the same image when you shoot with a 26 MP sensor and a strong low pass filter as a 20 MP sensor and a more sophisticated low pass filter, the R6 is not a downgrade from the RP in terms of cropping capability.

The 1DX III low pass filter apparently is a great improvement over the notoriously strong ones Canon used in the past. Is the filter in the RP so strong that it degrades the image to the point where a 20 MP R6 with the new filter will match the amount of detail it captures? Probably not, but we'll have to wait and see the difference once proper comparisons can be made.


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## padam (Apr 26, 2020)

Joules said:


> If you can get basically the same image when you shoot with a 26 MP sensor and a strong low pass filter as a 20 MP sensor and a more sophisticated low pass filter, the R6 is not a downgrade from the RP in terms of cropping capability.
> 
> The 1DX III low pass filter apparently is a great improvement over the notoriously strong ones Canon used in the past. Is the filter in the RP so strong that it degrades the image to the point where a 20 MP R6 with the new filter will match the amount of detail it captures? Probably not, but we'll have to wait and see the difference once proper comparisons can be made.


1DX III sensor comparisons are out there, it is not quite as detailed as the RP at low ISO (and the R is better still), but it retains detail and colour much better at high ISO.


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## BillB (Apr 26, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> So which is it?
> 
> "a wedding photographers dream camera for reception,candies,etc... (with a) Centerpoint (that) is absolutely golden in low light focusing even though it doesn’t have the sophisticated focusing system of the 5DIV the Centerpoint is absolutely golden in low light focusing and is still very useful."
> 
> ...


Well, Sony fanboys and Canon bashers have loved to trash the 6DII since it was a rumor because spec warriors can sneer at the autofocus, the dynamic range and the single card slot. On the other hand, a lot of people who use it seem to be very happy with it. It has been a poster child for the Canon cripple hammer crew, along with the M50, and some them still seem to be trapped in their old cyberspace reality on the 6DII. They seem to have shut up about the M50 a while ago.


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## -pekr- (Apr 26, 2020)

Joules said:


> If you can get basically the same image when you shoot with a 26 MP sensor and a strong low pass filter as a 20 MP sensor and a more sophisticated low pass filter, the R6 is not a downgrade from the RP in terms of cropping capability.
> 
> The 1DX III low pass filter apparently is a great improvement over the notoriously strong ones Canon used in the past. Is the filter in the RP so strong that it degrades the image to the point where a 20 MP R6 with the new filter will match the amount of detail it captures? Probably not, but we'll have to wait and see the difference once proper comparisons can be made.



Could you please take Mr. Clark and have some picnic somewhere? There is nothing more to suggest, if you are not able to freaking understand as simple thing as the ability to crop.


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## SecureGSM (Apr 26, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Could you please take Mr. Clark and have some picnic somewhere? There is nothing more to suggest, if you are not able to freaking understand as simple thing as the ability to crop.


You are being unnecessary rude.


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## -pekr- (Apr 26, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> So say all of the Sony fanboys that have never, ever, not even once taken a photo as good as many hundreds of thousands that have been taken by actual photographers using the 6D Mark II.



Nah, another blatant generalisation, so who's the fanboy then? I doubt you have talked to those mysterious hundreds of thousands of satisfied ppl - you have never met or talked to in person to even something like 0.001% of them. The eventual saless success might or might not be the only aspect of the judgement of the product quality itself.

6DII was simply a product development fiasco, no matter of its potential sales success. Canon's sensor decision for the 6DII was nothing more than a sad state of their sensor development capabilities at the certain time. You know that, I know that, we all know that. Within the certain conditions, you can take great pictures with a modern cell phone or really old photo gear. But that was absolutly not the point. After so many years of waiting (6 actually?), they have delivered camera with a sensor, which had worse low ISO DR than the APS-C 80D. Not to mention the missing ALL-I codec or headphone jack as another step back. 

You can simply bet, that if Canon would have better sensor back then, 6DII would be basically equipped with the sensor generation planned for the 1DXIII, R5 or R6 - as the whole generation seems to share certain characteristics. It's no shame to admit, that Canon was simply behind its competition. Maybe even that simple fact has lead to the advancements we are going to get with the new generation of cameras.


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## Joules (Apr 26, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Could you please take Mr. Clark and have some picnic somewhere? There is nothing more to suggest, if you are not able to freaking understand as simple thing as the ability to crop.


Picnics aren't that great of an idea in these times  If talking theory annoys you, feel free to ignore it.

The point is simply that in practical terms, 20 MP looks pretty bad on paper compared to 26 MP. But with an improvement in the low pass filter, it is at least less bad than 20 MP with the same old strong AA filter would be.

There’s simply more to cropping than megapixels. I think we can agree on that. If your image is slightly out of focus, for example, you can't crop it as much as a tack sharp image, before the blur becomes noticeable. A better low pass filter also adds a bit of blur, and the newer one should add less, if you will.

That does not prevent going from 26 to 20 MP being an odd choice. But it is also something to keep in mind when comparing specs, if Canon indeed uses the new filter on the R6. Nothing more and nothing less, apologies if that point came across in a bad way.


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## -pekr- (Apr 26, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> You are being unnecessary rude.



No, I should just not need more than 3 posts to explain, that if I want to crop, then I want to crop, without the eventual need to consider other aspect. It's just similar argument when guys were telling those requesting 4K video, what do they need it for, if they produce FHD content. For the sake of being able to crop.


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## SecureGSM (Apr 27, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> No, I should just not need more than 3 posts to explain, that if I want to crop, then I want to crop, without the eventual need to consider other aspect. It's just similar argument when guys were telling those requesting 4K video, what do they need it for, if they produce FHD content. For the sake of being able to crop.


++++ There is nothing more to suggest, if you are not able to freaking understand as simple thing as the ability to crop.

A.M.: the above statement of yours is an utmost rudeness in English.
I understand, that this may not be so in your native language.
If I were you, I would certainly consider apologising to forum members you have been disrespectful with (even if inadvertently).


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## OSOK (Apr 27, 2020)

Hello all.

This sounds like a very exciting camera. However, the specs are just too good to be true I suspect.

First and foremost is the dual card slot.

Looking at the leaked photos, I don't see a door on the side. Thus it looks like the cards load in the bottom in the battery area. Is there space for that on this body? That is very suspect.

Secondly, this would be a big departure for Canon in the way they have structured their lineups. Maybe so...they are changing things up in the R world? That would be nice. But a $2,000 - $2,200 camera with two slots? Two-slots is clearly, 100% undeniably a very-nice-to-have pro feature, I'd argue a must-have. Cards do die here and there, and it's a gamble running one card. Lot of people shoot commercially with one card, but at the risk of losing a shoot or a customer, possibly their reputation. Canon knows this and kept the 6D line a single card for this reason. That body had plenty of space for a second card (Nikon D7000 series is smaller, yet fits 2 cards, same with Sony A9).

Finally on the cards...that feature alone makes this a huge draw for serious use (combined with speed) and unless they seriously nerf/cripple other areas to make the R5 standout in a big way other than megapixels....the R6 is going to chew into R5 sales for still shooters who don't need 45MP. I would not buy an R5 for example if the rumored specs hold up. Alledged 8K and 45mp, even other bells and whistles don't matter to many. Canon has always kept their money-making features on the 5 series for $3,200 starting price....this opens the door for many to save. This is why I don't buy this spec.

20MP ....love it! While a lot of people are bashing this, not everyone wants nor needs more. 20MP makes data storage, post-processing workflow much easier and faster than 30mp, 45mp or 50mp. 20MP is more than enough for stunning prints of any reasonable size (not talking wall-sized super landscape prints)...and more than enough for any kind of online publishing even in the 4K monitor and TV age. 20MP only lacks the ability to crop a bit more, but the trade off in speed and ease is worth it for me.

However...what kind of 20mp is this? Is this going to be the same as the 1DX's sensor? If so, will it perform the same? Processing is a big part of it. Just because it's the same doesn't mean we'll get the same dynamic range, noise etc...Something to consider. Maybe it will be better! That would be a surprise.

FPS - I believe those numbers. Which are fantastic! But....buffer and write speeds. No way 12fps mechanical and 20fps electronic is going to be medium or long burst. That's ok. After all...at $2,000~ what does one expect? Figure...set it to (gasp!) JPG and fire away....There's going to be compromises at this price point.

No AF joystick is a big deal as keeping it separated from the R5....but in the mirrorless world with improved AF technologies, is it that relevant anymore?

With so much attention given to video features these days...maybe Canon's product separation will be in video features, rather than still shooting? That would be great for us still shooters. What could we miss in the stills? Ok, lower MP EVF. No biggie. More lag in the EVF? Ok, not a deal breaker. Less AF speed and points? Ok...if it's not an action camera, no deal breaker at all. Slower sync, 1/4000, and some other stuff....nothing big time historically as far as a cripple. "Only" 20mp ....sure! I'll take it. I'm not seeing any downsides in the stills side of things so long as one doesn't want all out landscape or massive print capability.

Anyway, post is long enough. For an old-school type stills shooter who does a variety of things, if this is 2 card slot, has at least 13 stops of DR (no worse than 5D4)....I'll trade all the other perks and they've got a buyer. This is why I'm a skeptic on slots and sensor performance. 

Excited to see what happens....


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## Michael Clark (Apr 27, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Nah, another blatant generalisation, so who's the fanboy then? I doubt you have talked to those mysterious hundreds of thousands of satisfied ppl - you have never met or talked to in person to even something like 0.001% of them. The eventual saless success might or might not be the only aspect of the judgement of the product quality itself.



But I suppose you have?



-pekr- said:


> 6DII was simply a product development fiasco, no matter of its potential sales success. Canon's sensor decision for the 6DII was nothing more than a sad state of their sensor development capabilities at the certain time. You know that, I know that, we all know that. Within the certain conditions, you can take great pictures with a modern cell phone or really old photo gear. But that was absolutly not the point. After so many years of waiting (6 actually?), they have delivered camera with a sensor, which had worse low ISO DR than the APS-C 80D. Not to mention the missing ALL-I codec or headphone jack as another step back.



In other words, the entire world is only as you see it? No one else has any other view of the world than your own?

I know no such thing. The 6D Mark II is a highly capable low light camera compared to most other cameras in use at the time it was introduced. For the price it is an awful lot of camera that basically matches the previous generation 5D Mark III. (The only real spec sheet differences are 1/4000 instead of 1/8000 minimum exposure time and 1/3 stop slower X-sync.)




-pekr- said:


> You can simply bet, that if Canon would have better sensor back then, 6DII would be basically equipped with the sensor generation planned for the 1DXIII, R5 or R6 - as the whole generation seems to share certain characteristics. It's no shame to admit, that Canon was simply behind its competition. Maybe even that simple fact has lead to the advancements we are going to get with the new generation of cameras.



You're free to throw away your money making such bets. I'm not going to be so foolish.

The fact is that, in terms of the spec sheet, Canon had better sensors available at the time and chose not to use one of them. Are you forgetting that to hear the internet critics who probably never even shot with a 6D Mark II tell it back then, the original 6D had a better sensor than the 6D Mark II?


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## Michael Clark (Apr 27, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Could you please take Mr. Clark and have some picnic somewhere? There is nothing more to suggest, if you are not able to freaking understand as simple thing as the ability to crop.






-pekr- said:


> No, I should just not need more than 3 posts to explain, that if I want to crop, then I want to crop, without the eventual need to consider other aspect. It's just similar argument when guys were telling those requesting 4K video, what do they need it for, if they produce FHD content. For the sake of being able to crop.



It shouldn't take near countless explanations to get you to understand that if the subject detail is not present in the image, it does not matter how many blurry pixels one has one will be limited in their ability to crop.


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## padam (Apr 27, 2020)

OSOK said:


> Looking at the leaked photos, I don't see a door on the side. Thus it looks like the cards load in the bottom in the battery area. Is there space for that on this body? That is very suspect.


Not sure what you are looking at, but there are no leaked photos from this camera at all.
There is only written information.
We can only look at the new button layout on the R5, and you can see how they have moved one button away to make more space for the card slots, I can see them using a similar button layout on the R6 as well.

And I think hoping that the dynamic range will be as good as a 5D IV or EOS R is the false hope. I think this is exactly where they are going to differentiate it, keeping it crippled but it will still pose as a credible upgrade over an older 6D or 6D Mark II.

You have a limited dynamic range like those cameras, but you don't have to worry about the single card slot anymore. Also beats every non-7D crop sensor camera as well in that regard.

Of course I might be wrong, but if I am not than there is a fair bit of overlap between the R and R6

The R would have:
-better dynamic range
-better stills resolution
-better EVF
-better screen
-better build
-Canon Log
-ALL-I codec
-10-bit output
-top LCD display

The R6 would have
-IBIS
-dual card slots
-better ISO
-better burst rate
-better video frame rates
-lesser (or nonexistent) 4k crop factor
-mode dial
-no touchbar
-lighter
-smaller

I have no idea about the batteries, but if they move away the card slots, then they might be able to share them (so it would be the updated LP-E6NH)
If the sensor has the better dynamic range, then it would be priced much higher than the R, which does not make that much sense with the cheaper build.


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## raphael lencrerot (Apr 27, 2020)

I hope it will be based on the same sensor technology than the R5 (or 1dxm3). If it is the case it will be a killer and will sell like hell. 
Conversely if they use a crap sensor tech to provide a 6d2 like, it will be a very very bad move from Canon...


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## Michael Clark (Apr 28, 2020)

padam said:


> Not sure what you are looking at, but there are no leaked photos from this camera at all.
> There is only written information.
> We can only look at the new button layout on the R5, and you can see how they have moved one button away to make more space for the card slots, I can see them using a similar button layout on the R6 as well.
> 
> ...



Both the 6D (2012) and 6D Mark II (2016) have marginally better DR than the 5D Mark III (2012). Yes, the 5D Mark IV showed significant improvement in low ISO DR in 2016, so the 6D Mark II was only a single generation behind the 5-series. The 6D, introduced later in the same year as the 5D Mark III gave up nothing in terms of DR to the same generation 5D Mark III!


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## padam (Apr 28, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Both the 6D (2012) and 6D Mark II (2016) have marginally better DR than the 5D Mark III (2012). Yes, the 5D Mark IV showed significant improvement in low ISO DR in 2016, so the 6D Mark II was only a single generation behind the 5-series. The 6D, introduced later in the same year as the 5D Mark III gave up nothing in terms of DR to the same generation 5D Mark III!


Exactly, at that time the two cameras weren't far away in terms of DR, but Canon has decided to change that in the next generation. And no, the 6D Mark II was not a generation behind, it was using a completely new sensor with Dual-Pixel AF, but with cost savings.
Will they keep doing that? Since it is a new sensor we won't actually know from just the bare specs, we can only guess whether it will include Canon Log, if it doesn't, then the DR difference might remain the same. I also expect the rolling shutter to be bad, so even if it does have uncropped 4k30p mode, it might not have DPAF, so it will be advisable to use the 1.4x crop instead. 1080p 120fps won't likely to have AF either.
They have made substantial changes with the card slots video specs and IBIS, making it even better at high ISO as well, so it is not like they haven't lifted this class significantly compared to past models (the 6D Mark II really wasn't much different over the 6D, apart from a slightly better AF with more points and slightly better burst rate, few more megapixels with a tilting touchscreen and DPAF), but wanting everything is unrealistic for this class of camera from Canon.

All the other speculations ignore the "lower your expectations" part, expecting a "giant killer" on the video front, having Canon Log like on the EOS R, and it is likely that will be limited right from the sensor level, and it will very much keep the EOS R relevant as well.


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## derpderp (Apr 28, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Here is an updated list without the R3 since it doesn't seem to fit:
> 
> R1 - 1DX Mirrorless Replacement
> R5 - 5D Replacement
> ...



FTFY. No reason to reinvent the hierarchy or nomenclature since most Canon users are familiar with the old system and there's nothing wrong with it. With regards to the R or RP, it's in my opinion that they are one-off cameras to bridge the DSLR and mirrorless lines. Canon had great RF lenses but no body to attach them to, so they rushed out with the R and RP while the truly professional bodies were still in development.


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## SteveC (Apr 28, 2020)

derpderp said:


> FTFY. No reason to reinvent the hierarchy or nomenclature since most Canon users are familiar with the old system and there's nothing wrong with it. With regards to the R or RP, it's in my opinion that they are one-off cameras to bridge the DSLR and mirrorless lines. Canon had great RF lenses but no body to attach them to, so they rushed out with the R and RP while the truly professional bodies were still in development.



Except that there's no way in Hell they are going to ditch the M Series. They may, if they take leave of their senses, produce a crop sensor R camera, but even if they do that, the Ms remain.


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## derpderp (Apr 28, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Except that there's no way in Hell they are going to ditch the M Series. *They may, if they take leave of their senses, produce a crop sensor R camera,* but even if they do that, the Ms remain.



That's an excellent idea  Maybe this pandemic (and the resulting economic fallout) would drive them to do just that.


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## Fast351 (Apr 28, 2020)

Question for you guys that are smarter than I am: Dual card slots are mostly a still feature right? (Does video record to both cards at the same time?)

If it is, wouldn't that suggest that the sensor would be something still photographers would get excited about? Perhaps even the entire camera? Otherwise why include double card slots if this thing is targeted at video.

Just a thought.


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## mangobutter (Apr 28, 2020)

What I want in the R6:

20MP/Low light supremacy
Compact as possible (RP body size or slightly smaller)

that's it. Don't need 4k/60 (just introduces heat)
Don't need IBIS (though i'm sure it'll come with it, driving up the cost)
Would like a photo-centered camera.

No company is really putting those out these days. Everything has to do 4k/60 with 4:2:2 10 bit due to youtube vloggers which account for 1% of the market. This drives up costs and introduces compromises into the system. heat and noise. Don't make cameras for kids in basements. Make cameras for experienced adult photographers! my 2 cents.

Original 5D owner since the year 2005.


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## herein2020 (Apr 28, 2020)

derpderp said:


> FTFY. No reason to reinvent the hierarchy or nomenclature since most Canon users are familiar with the old system and there's nothing wrong with it. With regards to the R or RP, it's in my opinion that they are one-off cameras to bridge the DSLR and mirrorless lines. Canon had great RF lenses but no body to attach them to, so they rushed out with the R and RP while the truly professional bodies were still in development.


This has been beaten to death...but there is no way Canon is going to have the lowest entry level FF resolution camera out of all of the manufacturers, or waste dual card slots on an entry level camera, or have one of the only FF entry level camera that can do 4K 60FPS (a spec by the way that beats many flagship cameras); the R6 with the specs listed so far is above entry level and leaves room for an entry below it unless they no longer consider FF to be entry level at all and expect buyers to stick with the M series which still contradicts the previous market position for the 6D.

Producing a crop sensor R camera also makes no sense because there are no cheap lenses to go with it; which would still place the bar for FF entry above any price point in the past.


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## derpderp (Apr 29, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> This has been beaten to death...but there is no way Canon is going to have the lowest entry level FF resolution camera out of all of the manufacturers, or waste dual card slots on an entry level camera, or have one of the only FF entry level camera that can do 4K 60FPS (a spec by the way that beats many flagship cameras); the R6 with the specs listed so far is above entry level and leaves room for an entry below it unless they no longer consider FF to be entry level at all and expect buyers to stick with the M series which still contradicts the previous market position for the 6D.
> 
> Producing a crop sensor R camera also makes no sense because there are no cheap lenses to go with it; which would still place the bar for FF entry above any price point in the past.



Please don't take *rumored* specs as gospel. There is no proof that the 'R6' will actually offer 4K60 in any shape or form (cropped/uncropped/crippled) yet. Regardless, it's a given that so called 'entry-level' FF ML cameras should be providing a minimum of 4K60 by now. The Sony A7III (which is an 'entry-level' FF ML camera) has been providing excellent 4K30 since 2018.

Also, why wouldn't Canon want to offer the lowest entry level FF camera out of all the manufacturers (to entice more people to the RF system), or place dual card slots on them (which has been offered on comparable bodies from other manufacturers)?

IMHO, an APSC R camera is probably a long shot, but not unrealistic if Canon is keen to provide a one-mount solution. People buy into the M system because its compact and fairly affordable, but there's no path for them to upgrade organically since the M mount is incompatible with the RF/EF mount. An APSC R camera fills in the gap just nicely. Again, more users of the RF mount = more RF lenses being purchased = more $$ for Canon.


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## Michael Clark (Apr 30, 2020)

derpderp said:


> IMHO, an APSC R camera is probably a long shot, but not unrealistic if Canon is keen to provide a one-mount solution. People buy into the M system because its compact and fairly affordable, but there's no path for them to upgrade organically since the M mount is incompatible with the RF/EF mount. An APSC R camera fills in the gap just nicely. Again, more users of the RF mount = more RF lenses being purchased = more $$ for Canon.



_Au contraire mon frère._ 

The EF-M cameras are perfectly compatible with EF and EF-S lenses.


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