# Sadly, the 6dm2 and 5div to be obsolete shortly



## deadwrong (Aug 2, 2017)

Since Canon has stopped with competing and innovation..... Nikon is about to unleash what we've hoped for with the latest Canon's.

Nikon D850 Full Specification
New 46MP FX Format sensor
AF system same as Nikon D5
4K Videos
full HD 120fps video
Tiltable LCD touchscreen
Improved dynamic range
Continuous shooting speed upto 8fps
Improved low-light performace
New and improved version of SnapBridge
No built-in GPS
Memory card slots: one SD and one XQD
Back illuminated buttons
Joystick selector
Built-in Bluetooth and Wi-Fi
8K time-lapse video capabilities
The D850 will be on display at the Photo+ Expo in October
No EVF or hybrid viewfinder
D850 LCD will have twice the resolution of the D810
SD slot will support UHS-II
Improved LiveView split-screen display
Improved silent shooting mode
Better battery life
lighter than the D810

The camera shipping of the camera will start from October and we can expect its official announcement on September 2017.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 2, 2017)

Why would a high end camera obsolete a entry level camera like a 6D MK II? That logic makes no sense. All cameras are obsolete as soon as they are delivered. The technology in them was developed 2 years previously. 

There will be some nice features in a D850, but experience tells me to watch out for the things they do not put in the specifications. I bought a D800 when everyone was gushing over the specifications only to find that it was noisy at ISO's over 800, and the tethering capability which I use for product photography was a bad joke. DXO told us about low noise at high ISO, but you had to reduce the image to 8MP to get it.

I'd skip it just because the only source for XQD cards is Sony, and I do not like the limitations of SD cards like requiring a low level format to get advertised speeds.

The final straw, however is lack of a direct print button


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## 9VIII (Aug 2, 2017)

Lets just hope Nikon isn't about to unleash more shutter recalls and virtually unusable wi-fi utilities.

The D850 sounds great "on paper"...

Canon products are consistently the most solidly built and user friendly tools on the market, if that didn't matter to people then Microsoft would still be bailing out Apple.

Oh look, Nikon has a financial future about as bright as the Arctic Circle in December, and Canon is recording growth in a time when their industry is supposed to be failing.


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## Jack Douglas (Aug 2, 2017)

Funny all this talk about Nikon got me curious about DPR's comments on the latest top of the line D5.

"Even at a modest 3 stop push, we see the D5 has already contributed a considerable amount of noise to its low ISO images compared to the 24MP D750. After a 5 stop push the gap widens, with the D750's 5 stop file looking more like the 3 stop file from the D5. In fact, *the D5's performance closely resembles the performance seen from the Canon 6D*, with just a bit more color noise showing in the 6D's file."

Any 6D shooters should feel pretty good about this, maybe you needed a little boost to your beleaguered ego. 

So, the conversation just goes round and round on the same issue with all the animosity as usual. Some things never change.

Jack


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## Ryananthony (Aug 2, 2017)

9VIII said:


> Lets just hope Nikon isn't about to unleash more shutter recalls and virtually unusable wi-fi utilities.
> 
> The D850 sounds great "on paper"...
> 
> ...



Let alone these are rumored specs, the same way that hybrid evf/ovf was rumored from a photo of some screw holes. 

I think it's interesting how people act like the current camera, 5div, d850, a9, are the last cameras to ever be built. They talk about how this camera is offering these specs that will make all the difference. Well 3-4 years from now we will see another group of cameras, all with new specs. 

Ill hold off on upgrading my 5d3 and 1dx for another generation. I can almost gaurenteee both will still work flawlessly and continue to create the same quality images they did when they were new. Plus now, it saves money for other purchases, like the 70-200 f2.8is ii I purchased today.


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## Jopa (Aug 2, 2017)

Ryananthony said:


> Let alone these are rumored specs, the same way that hybrid evf/ovf was rumored from a photo of some screw holes.
> 
> I think it's interesting how people act like the current camera, 5div, d850, a9, are the last cameras to ever be built. They talk about how this camera is offering these specs that will make all the difference. Well 3-4 years from now we will see another group of cameras, all with new specs.
> 
> Ill hold off on upgrading my 5d3 and 1dx for another generation. I can almost gaurenteee both will still work flawlessly and continue to create the same quality images they did when they were new. Plus now, it saves money for other purchases, like the 70-200 f2.8is ii I purchased today.



Cameras have more specs people can talk about than lenses. The OP mentioned like 20+ items... Imagine now how many pages we can write about this stuff. Lenses are boring - MTFs and AF speed/accuracy. Booooo 
It's not even worth mentioning the lenses render pictures, and any sensor made after 2005 or film is *more* than capable to capture it, right? But who cares, 4k is everything these days.

Took this today with my obsolete piece of garbage 1dx2...


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## LonelyBoy (Aug 2, 2017)

As I said in another thread, rumored specs are cheap. Let's compare actual specs, actual performance, and actual prices against Canon's products, mmmkay? And then let's see if Nikon can build it reliably and profitably, or if it's going to be plagued by issues and lose money.

Good lord people...


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 2, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> deadwrong



Well, at least you're right about one thing.


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## Mikehit (Aug 2, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> Since Canon has stopped with competing and innovation..... Nikon is about to unleash what we've hoped for with the latest Canon's.



Well, you've already predicted the A99ii to be a 5D4 killer, and 


> the 5div and how long this camera has before its totally obsolete within 2 years



and 



> Soon Canon and Nikon will be the niche market




So maybe as Neuro said 'deadwrong' is actually a good moniker.


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## LesC (Aug 2, 2017)

Only a tiltable screen & no GPS? Rubbish!


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## YuengLinger (Aug 2, 2017)

The title of your post, "Sadly..." is disingenuous. Whatever you might be feeling when you attempt to provoke with brand slurs, it isn't sadness. 

Why so bitter?


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## arthurbikemad (Aug 2, 2017)

And I have bigger news, the planet she is dieing, along with our sun, we will soon need another home, in other words this world is done. Consumed by mankind and the need to progress.

That is all.


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## Don Haines (Aug 2, 2017)

All commercially sold cameras are obsolete.... by the time they make it to market, there is much better stuff in the lab...

And somehow, people continue to use those obsolete cameras for ten or more years and get great pictures.....


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## slclick (Aug 2, 2017)

But Canons emails!


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## slclick (Aug 2, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> All commercially sold cameras are obsolete.... by the time they make it to market, there is much better stuff in the lab...
> 
> And somehow, people continue to use those obsolete cameras for ten or more years and get great pictures.....



Can the Mods make this a sticky?


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## Antono Refa (Aug 2, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> Since Canon has stopped with competing and innovation..... Nikon is about to unleash what we've hoped for with the latest Canon's.
> 
> Nikon D850 Full Specification



Would the D850 suffer from lockups requiring users to take the battery out to release?

Would the D850 suffer from shutter oil splatter problems?

Would it be recalled three times for shutter oil splatter problems?

There's more to a camera than specs.


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## Talys (Aug 2, 2017)

slclick said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > All commercially sold cameras are obsolete.... by the time they make it to market, there is much better stuff in the lab...
> ...



+1

100% of my good pictures aren't great because I had the best camera in the world.

100% of my bad pictures would have still been bad, even if they had been taken with the best camera in the world.

Cameras are not smartphones or PCs. Obsolescence isn't nearly as major an issue, because the technology is very mature. We're also at practical limits of megapixels, because let's be honest, 50MP 5DSR images are a pain. They are massive to archive and store, slow to transfer, and slow to process in post. And for what? Most of us aren't going to print billboards.


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## stevelee (Aug 2, 2017)

Jopa said:


> Took this today with my obsolete piece of garbage 1dx2...



Beautiful picture from that relic. Of course some folks took really nice pictures in the nineteenth century, too.


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## DominoDude (Aug 2, 2017)

The very same day I see the first big beautiful print made from a spec. sheet, is the same day I sell my Canon bodies and stuff the lenses where the sun don't shine.


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## scyrene (Aug 2, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> Since Canon has stopped with competing and innovation..... Nikon is about to unleash what we've hoped for with the latest Canon's.



I have a feeling your username will continue to be apt :


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## deadwrong (Aug 3, 2017)

;D Whoops, looks like some people cant handle the truth. You will see...........Sony and Nikon will bury Canon soon if this continues the trend with Canon's lack of innovation. 

Seen any glowing 6dm2 reviews? Noooooope.

Face it, that is a 2014 Camera.


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## Antono Refa (Aug 3, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> ;D Whoops, looks like some people cant handle the truth. You will see...........Sony and Nikon will bury Canon soon if this continues the trend with Canon's lack of innovation.



Yes, you will.



deadwrong said:


> Face it, that is a 2014 Camera.



You need to face a simple truth - the 6D is an economy class camera. Not the place where companies showcase their innovative abilities & latest advances.


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## Mikehit (Aug 3, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> ;D Whoops, looks like some people cant handle the truth. You will see...........Sony and Nikon will bury Canon soon if this continues the trend with Canon's lack of innovation.



What 'truth'? 
So what you are saying is that if Nikon and Sony make advances and Canon do nothing they will go under. Yep and they will deserve it. You could equally say that if Sony rest on their laurels and do nothing over the next 5 years and Canon keep as they are, then Sony will go under. 
So what is the point of your comment? 

Here's a question: who has made more gains in sensor performance in the last 3 years? I would say it is Canon. I agree that Canon has not caught up with Sony sensor but Canon sensor 2013 vs 2017 shows greater advance than Sony 2013 vs 2017. Sony are now realising the disadvantages of making a great leap forward. 



deadwrong said:


> Seen any glowing 6dm2 reviews? Noooooope.



Are you talking about real life users or click-bait review sites? I prefer the former.


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## padam (Aug 3, 2017)

Antono Refa said:


> Would the D850 suffer from lockups requiring users to take the battery out to release?
> 
> Would the D850 suffer from shutter oil splatter problems?
> 
> ...



To be fair, the 1DX2 suffers from similar oil spatter problems and Canon refuses to acknowledge it.

http://www.birdsasart-blog.com/2017/03/07/canon-eos-1d-x-mark-ii-oil-spatter-on-the-sensor-problems/

or they really showed their true colors with this:

https://www.photocounter.com.au/2013/no-real-winners-in-canon-1dx-argument/


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## Antono Refa (Aug 3, 2017)

padam said:


> Antono Refa said:
> 
> 
> > Would the D850 suffer from lockups requiring users to take the battery out to release?
> ...



To be fair, that's someone claiming two 1D XmkIIs suffer from oil splatter. Even if he's right, two bodies with a problem don't prove it's a serial problem.

Brand names make defective products all the time. I had a Sandisk disk on key malfunctioning out of the box, and an Intel Pentium that failed consistently during Windows installation. Both times I brought the product back to the store, shown to the store owner it is defective, and had it replaced on the spot, end of story.



padam said:


> or they really showed their true colors with this:
> 
> https://www.photocounter.com.au/2013/no-real-winners-in-canon-1dx-argument/



Again, a single story, heard from one side.

Trying to blow three cases out of proportions into denied serial problems proves you have nothing, and you know it.


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## Larsskv (Aug 3, 2017)

padam said:


> Antono Refa said:
> 
> 
> > Would the D850 suffer from lockups requiring users to take the battery out to release?
> ...



I have issues with dust on my 1DXII. It shows up at f11, and is a pain from f16-f22. It is small spots. I find them very difficult to remove, and they reappear after a short time.


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## RGF (Aug 3, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> Since Canon has stopped with competing and innovation..... Nikon is about to unleash what we've hoped for with the latest Canon's.
> 
> Nikon D850 Full Specification
> New 46MP FX Format sensor
> ...



maybe you should sell all your Canon gear as it soon be obsolete. Sight unseen, I'll give $10 per body in working condition and the same for each lens.

Let me know when you are ready to sell.


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## Larsskv (Aug 3, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> ;D Whoops, looks like some people cant handle the truth. You will see...........Sony and Nikon will bury Canon soon if this continues the trend with Canon's lack of innovation.
> 
> Seen any glowing 6dm2 reviews? Noooooope.
> 
> Face it, that is a 2014 Camera.



Do you remember the release of the 6D? There were no overwhelming or glowing reviews that I recall. It was critizised espesially for only having one card slot and a poor AF system. It was repeatedly held up against Nikon D600, which many reviewers claimed was the better option. 

What does history tell us about the 6D vs the Nikon D600 today? I think it is fair to claim that the 6D has been a much more popular camera. Look at user feedback on BHPhoto and Amazon, and look at which cameras are the most used in various competions. The Canon 6D is a very higly loved camera, despite what reviewers claimed 4-5 years ago. I bet the 6DII will to. In real world use, ergonomics, handling and overall usability is much more important to most photografers, than an increase in DR (which isn't relevant in 95% of the pictures anyway).

I'm not defending Canons crippling of their lower tier cameras, but I claim that Canon is superior in making user friendly cameras that people like to use - and for the average 6DII buyer, other features will matter a lot more than a rarely experienced lack of DR.


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## padam (Aug 3, 2017)

Antono Refa said:


> Again, a single story, heard from one side.
> 
> Trying to blow three cases out of proportions into denied serial problems proves you have nothing, and you know it.



You can look at all the comments, FM forums etc. I won't waste any more time with links to all the topics, the issue is very much real, but of course some say "I shoot sports at f2.8 anyway" and ignore the problem. This is not the only fiasco Canon had, they just manage to "hide" much better than Nikon - you can read into the second case and you'll know that they probably made similar "offers" to other cases just to close and hide it.


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## Mikehit (Aug 3, 2017)

padam said:


> You can look at all the comments, FM forums etc. I won't waste any more time with links to all the topics, the issue is very much real, but of course some say "I shoot sports at f2.8 anyway" and ignore the problem. This is not the only fiasco Canon had, they just manage to "hide" much better than Nikon - you can read into the second case and you'll know that they probably made similar "offers" to other cases just to close and hide it.



Yes, the issue is real, but how do Canon 'hide it much better' if people report it on the internet? What you are talking about is whether the company admits liability.


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## tron (Aug 3, 2017)

The fact that Nikon had to replace D600 with D610 says alot. Not to mention the various shutter issues of D750. But yes, the yet to be released camera body is always the perfect one that will mark the begining of Canon's doom ;D


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 3, 2017)

padam said:


> To be fair, the 1DX2 suffers from similar oil spatter problems and Canon refuses to acknowledge it.



Sorry to hear that your 1D X II is suffering from oil spatters. When you say 'Canon refuses to acknowledge it,' do you mean they won't accept your camera for service, or that they did service it and reported back that there was nothing wrong with it? Or do you even own a 1D X II? :

Do you own a car? Have you searched the Internet about it, and discovered the myriad of defects your car has, that the manufacturer refuses to acknowledge? I have, it's amazing how many problems I have with my year/make/model, that I didn't even know about!! When I experienced the one problem I did have, the traction control warning light coming on intermittently, the wisdom of the Internet informed me it was either a bad brake light or a faulty wheel sensor. It was neither, the dealer replaced the remote engine start module and that fixed the problem. 

But back to cameras, there were oil spatter reports with the 1D X, as well. After sufficient incidents for Canon to confirm the problem and identify the affected cameras, Canon issued a service advisory. Personally, my 1D X was in the affected serial number range, and although I had not experienced any problems, I took it in to the Canon NJ service center, they fixed it in under an hour and I was on my way. Note that posts on Internet forums don't constitute 'incidents', Canon only cares about cameras that are sent into them for service (which is what Art Morris is encouraging people to do with their 1D X IIs, quite appropriately).


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## benique (Aug 3, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> ;D Whoops, looks like some people cant handle the truth. You will see...........Sony and Nikon will bury Canon soon if this continues the trend with Canon's lack of innovation.



Do you actually take photos or are you just a troll? Show us some.


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## tron (Aug 3, 2017)

benique said:


> deadwrong said:
> 
> 
> > ;D Whoops, looks like some people cant handle the truth. You will see...........Sony and Nikon will bury Canon soon if this continues the trend with Canon's lack of innovation.
> ...


I vote on troll. Anyone comparing one company's entry model with another company's top model is either a troll or an idiot. But as I said I vote on troll....


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## Don Haines (Aug 3, 2017)

tron said:


> benique said:
> 
> 
> > deadwrong said:
> ...


The two options are not mutually exclusive....


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 3, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > benique said:
> ...



Indeed. They may even be positively correlated...


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## tron (Aug 3, 2017)

Don and neuro, I was trying to be polite! You don't help with your comments ;D


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## scyrene (Aug 6, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> So what is the point of your comment?



It's a much over-used and sometimes abused term, but here I think it fits on: trolling. That's the only point of it.

(Sorry, I realise people have already said this, I posted before I got to the end of the thread).


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## Cthulhu (Aug 7, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> padam said:
> 
> 
> > To be fair, the 1DX2 suffers from similar oil spatter problems and Canon refuses to acknowledge it.
> ...



They acknowledged it on the 1dx, not the mk2. Mine has splatter, though not as bad as the linked post. They took it in for cleaning 3 times but always come back the same. Won't say it's oil splatter. I'm a CPS platinum member and also bought their carepak for this camera, but if they won't acknowledge there's a problem it does me no good.


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## Aglet (Aug 7, 2017)

Cthulhu said:


> They acknowledged it on the 1dx, not the mk2. Mine has splatter, though not as bad as the linked post. They took it in for cleaning 3 times but always come back the same. Won't say it's oil splatter. I'm a CPS platinum member and also bought their carepak for this camera, but if they won't acknowledge there's a problem it does me no good.



does "the same" mean the spots are in the same place or it just keeps getting spots?
sometimes the blowers many people recommend to clean sensors actually PUT crud on the sensor.
I'm talking about you, RocketBlower! Seems mold-release wax or something was coming off and getting blasted onto the sensor hard enough to stick and that was tough to remove.... sticky smeary little gunk chunks.


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## Aglet (Aug 7, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> padam said:
> 
> 
> > You can look at all the comments, FM forums etc. I won't waste any more time with links to all the topics, the issue is very much real, but of course some say "I shoot sports at f2.8 anyway" and ignore the problem. This is not the only fiasco Canon had, they just manage to "hide" much better than Nikon - you can read into the second case and you'll know that they probably made similar "offers" to other cases just to close and hide it.
> ...



years back, when I actually was an all-Canon camp, i discovered a WB bug in DPP and reported it... guess what the first thing the Canon support guy said to me on the phone?...

"Please don't post this on any internet forums!"

Numerous DPP updates later, bug remained.
Not sure if it's still there... don't care. quickly outgrew DPP


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## Aglet (Aug 7, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> What 'truth'?
> So what you are saying is that if Nikon and Sony make advances and Canon do nothing they will go under. Yep and they will deserve it. You could equally say that if Sony rest on their laurels and do nothing over the next 5 years and Canon keep as they are, then Sony will go under.
> So what is the point of your comment?
> 
> Here's a question: who has made more gains in sensor performance in the last 3 years? I would say it is Canon. I agree that Canon has not caught up with Sony sensor but Canon sensor 2013 vs 2017 shows greater advance than Sony 2013 vs 2017. Sony are now realising the disadvantages of making a great leap forward.



seriously, dude, what kind of rabbit-hole logic is that?... 
I only hear stuff like that when I talk to an old war-vet buddy when he's high :-\

maybe you should take a closer look at the sensors Sony has produced in the last year.
Like the one in the Fuji medium format
the a9 that has nearly 700 AF points on it and and pumps out 20 fps

or the FF 42MP unit; more MP, still low noise and good DR and 12 fps

The high sensitivity 12.x MP sensor of the A7s2 that not only has great specs but can do 4k video too.

and I don't know if they make the 20MP MFT sensor in the latest Olympus but that is a wicked performing little device that, according to Bill's website, exceeds theoretical performance for an MFT sensor!

You not payin' attention there, buddy.  They've been ahead for a while and they're really good at innovating while Canon is still playing catch-up.


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## Mikehit (Aug 7, 2017)

Aglet said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > What 'truth'?
> ...



You obviously need to re-read it in the context of deadwrong's comment. 
I was showing the stupidity of his comment that 'if Canon does nothing they are sunk', showing it equally applies to any other manufacturer and as such is meaningless. I made no comment on the merits of any particular brand.

Regards the advances, I acknowledged that Sony and others were ahead of Canon but what this means is that their development curve is slowing up. Canon is behind in the technology which means they have more room for developments and they have closed the gap significantly: just look at the comparisons people make where 2 or 3 years ago, the comparison was 3-stop push. Now it is a 6-stop push and the occasions that a Sony can handle a situation that Canon cannot is becoming ever fewer. Despite deadwrong's facile comment there is no reason to believe that will not continue unless, of course, Sony develop a new sensor. 

Perhaps it is you "not payin' attention there, buddy.  "


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 7, 2017)

Cthulhu said:


> They acknowledged it on the 1dx, not the mk2. Mine has splatter, though not as bad as the linked post. They took it in for cleaning 3 times but always come back the same. Won't say it's oil splatter. I'm a CPS platinum member and also bought their carepak for this camera, but if they won't acknowledge there's a problem it does me no good.



Do you mean they're not actually cleaning the sensor, or do new spots develop? How do you know they're oil and not dust?

What do you mean by 'acknowledge the problem'? If your sensor is getting dust on it, that's not a 'problem'. If it's getting oil splatters, that is a problem and Canon should correct it. But don't expect them to issue a recall for a handful of affected units.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 7, 2017)

Aglet said:


> years back, when I actually was an all-Canon camp, i discovered a WB bug in DPP and reported it... guess what the first thing the Canon support guy said to me on the phone?...
> 
> "Please don't post this on any internet forums!"
> 
> ...



Interesting. When I reported a 1D X firmware bug with AFMA, they couldn't reproduce it. When I explained how to reproduce it (enabling orientation-linked AF point resulted in AFMA values not being stored), they were able to reproduce the problem. It was addressed in a firmware update released the following month. 

So perhaps they simply couldn't reproduce your 'bug'.


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## leGreve (Aug 7, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> Since Canon has stopped with competing and innovation..... Nikon is about to unleash what we've hoped for with the latest Canon's.
> 
> Nikon D850 Full Specification
> New 46MP FX Format sensor
> ...



Dunno bout you.... but I'm personally done with shooting video / film with dslr and dslr lenses... and in terms of still quality, I do own a 5D4 now, but the 5D3 was good enough for stills already.
For video, I'll rely on my FS7 II and the Fujinon MK lenses or the Sony Selp 18-135... 

I would expect that Nikon to be priced way too high for a stills camera with semi decent video abilities.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Aug 7, 2017)

tron said:


> The fact that Nikon had to replace D600 with D610 says alot. Not to mention the various shutter issues of D750. But yes, the yet to be released camera body is always the perfect one that will mark the begining of Canon's doom ;D



Same thing with the d800, which first came ass 2 models, then a year later comes the d810...

If history repeats, there will be a d860 released next year. So hope your bank account is ready for that!


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## Aglet (Aug 7, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > years back, when I actually was an all-Canon camp, i discovered a WB bug in DPP and reported it... guess what the first thing the Canon support guy said to me on the phone?...
> ...



No, they certainly could.
Sample files were requested and provided along with workflow settings that exhibited the bug.
I even provided examples using other raw software processing for comparison. I had to do some crazy stuff in photoshop to replicate the effect that was in the DPP bug but did so in order that they could see what was happening to cause the problem.
Support contact escalated and there was a lot of back and forth between me and Canon support on the topic for a while and I certainly commend them for taking interest in it and trying to correct it.
Unfortunately I never got a direct response from the software team as to whether that problem was fixed as my support liaison wasn't privy to that info.

It was an otherwise decent bit of software, especially considering the price. 
I made a lot of use of it initially for batch processing and global edits but it was pretty darn slow.

Since I was starting to make more use of other raw processing software i didn't follow up on it and abandoned DPP.


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## Aglet (Aug 7, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> You obviously need to re-read it in the context of deadwrong's comment.
> I was showing the stupidity of his comment that 'if Canon does nothing they are sunk', showing it equally applies to any other manufacturer and as such is meaningless. I made no comment on the merits of any particular brand.



HAHA! OK, perhaps I didn't recognize you were responding "in kind" to that previous comment cuz it just seemed to extend the level of WT? way out there. 



> Regards the advances, I acknowledged that Sony and others were ahead of Canon but what this means is that their development curve is slowing up. Canon is behind in the technology which means they have more room for developments and they have closed the gap significantly: just look at the comparisons people make where 2 or 3 years ago, the comparison was 3-stop push. Now it is a 6-stop push and the occasions that a Sony can handle a situation that Canon cannot is becoming ever fewer. Despite deadwrong's facile comment there is no reason to believe that will not continue unless, of course, Sony develop a new sensor.



Sony, and everyone else in the sensor biz, are already bumping into the practical limits of physics.
This is certainly one area where Canon definitely has more "headroom." 

It's gonna take some pretty clever innovation to improve on what we have now to any substantial degree.
Crikey! We're literally counting individual photons and electrons here already!
(And like a bad poker player, Canon's still slipping in a few extra  )

If anyone wants an introduction to quantum physics, just ponder your camera's sensor! 




> Perhaps it is you "not payin' attention there, buddy.  "



HAHA! Yes, perhaps. We're still waiting for sarcasm and hyperbole fonts.


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## Cthulhu (Aug 7, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Cthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > They acknowledged it on the 1dx, not the mk2. Mine has splatter, though not as bad as the linked post. They took it in for cleaning 3 times but always come back the same. Won't say it's oil splatter. I'm a CPS platinum member and also bought their carepak for this camera, but if they won't acknowledge there's a problem it does me no good.
> ...




Because it's not solid and will sometimes fringe, they're fairly easy to distinguish from dust if you've seen them before. Oddly enough it's also on the upper left corner. I'll be sending it in again this month, it's actually already boxed. What I mean by acknowledge the problem is that on the phone they swear there's no such problem and therefore will only do a sensor cleaning, despite oil re-surging on the same area of the sensor, otherwise they might replace the shutter assembly. Ironically the camera could be run over by a truck and they'd just ship me a new one...


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 7, 2017)

Cthulhu said:


> [What I mean by acknowledge the problem is that on the phone they swear there's no such problem and therefore will only do a sensor cleaning, despite oil re-surging on the same area of the sensor, otherwise they might replace the shutter assembly.



I have no doubt that that is their policy, unless and until they have sufficient evidence to document that there _is_ a problem. No doubt people with oily 1D X sensors were told the very same, until the service advisory was issued.


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## Mikehit (Aug 7, 2017)

Cthulhu said:


> Because it's not solid and will sometimes fringe, they're fairly easy to distinguish from dust if you've seen them before. Oddly enough it's also on the upper left corner. I'll be sending it in again this month, it's actually already boxed. What I mean by acknowledge the problem is that on the phone they swear there's no such problem and therefore will only do a sensor cleaning, despite oil re-surging on the same area of the sensor, otherwise they might replace the shutter assembly. Ironically the camera could be run over by a truck and they'd just ship me a new one...



When you say 'acknowledge the problem' do you think it is a design fault or a something that happens more often than you think it should. 
When something is moving as fast as the shutter at 14/16 fps I think bits flying around is to be expected. Some demanding users are on record as saying 'what do you expect' - others believe it should not happen. So in some ways I can understand Canon's response in that if it is not a faulty part or it is not a design fault why should they do anything other than clean it up and send it back? Why do you think replacing the shutter assembly will solve anything?


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## Cthulhu (Aug 7, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> Cthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > Because it's not solid and will sometimes fringe, they're fairly easy to distinguish from dust if you've seen them before. Oddly enough it's also on the upper left corner. I'll be sending it in again this month, it's actually already boxed. What I mean by acknowledge the problem is that on the phone they swear there's no such problem and therefore will only do a sensor cleaning, despite oil re-surging on the same area of the sensor, otherwise they might replace the shutter assembly. Ironically the camera could be run over by a truck and they'd just ship me a new one...
> ...



I mean it happens on my body and not on others, what is this nonsense drivel you came up with? Whether or not you expect and understand it, I don't and neither does Canon. Are you seriously saying it's ok and fine for anyone to be selling cameras that splatter oil on their sensors? Canon certainly is not, neither is Nikon or any other brand on earth.


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## unfocused (Aug 8, 2017)

Cthulhu said:


> ...Are you seriously saying it's ok and fine for anyone to be selling cameras that splatter oil on their sensors? Canon certainly is not, neither is Nikon or any other brand on earth.



Whether it is dust or oil I don't know, but I can certainly confirm that the problem is real. When someone like Art Morris raises the issue, you know it's a problem. I do know that I have to clean the sensor about 10 - 20 times more frequently than I ever had to clean the 5D III or the 7D II, in fact with both of those an annual trip to CPS was sufficient. 

I think a lot of the frustration 1D X II owners feel,is due to Canon's failure to be transparent about the problem.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 8, 2017)

unfocused said:


> Cthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > ...Are you seriously saying it's ok and fine for anyone to be selling cameras that splatter oil on their sensors? Canon certainly is not, neither is Nikon or any other brand on earth.
> ...



This https://garypoulton.com/tag/nikon-d600-sensor-problems/ is an oil splatter issue. A few bits here and there that anybody with can clean or clone out isn't, there is far too much talk of 'issues' when in reality the perceived symptoms are not "issues" or "problems" of any consequence.

P.S. I am not frustrated. I never sent in my 1DS MkIII's for their oil splatter recall because I cleaned the sensor myself anyway, and if the 1DX MkII gets a recall for the same thing they won't get my two for that either.


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## Cthulhu (Aug 8, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Cthulhu said:
> ...



Do you use your bodies for work?


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## privatebydesign (Aug 8, 2017)

Cthulhu said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



Yes, and I have done since 1978 when we constantly worried about our film getting scratched during processing. If people are so worried and obsessive about a few dust and oil spots that only show at small apertures in even toned areas of an image they really are worrying about the wrong things.


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## unfocused (Aug 8, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Cthulhu said:
> ...



What's your point?

That because it's not a problem for you, then no one is allowed to say it is a problem? Sorry but it doesn't work that way. 

That Nikon has had problems as well, so therefore it should be okay? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

That we used to have to deal with film scratches. Yeah, well, we used to have to develop film and print photos using noxious chemicals. Thank God those days are over. Trading one problem for another still means you have a problem.

As for cleaning the sensor yourself, the only sensor cleaning approved by Canon is using a blower -- no brushes, no liquids, no nothing. Yet we all know how ineffective that is. It seems like a Catch-22. Either send your camera in every week or two for a cleaning (and have it come back still needing to be cleaned, by the way) or risk voiding the warranty by cleaning it yourself. 

I'm not saying Canon is terrible or ******* or that I should be able to push an underexposed image by six stops. Heck, I'm as big of a Canon fanboy as the next guy. But, when people reference a problem that has been well-documented by professionals, it's kind of pointless to argue that because you personally don't find it to be a problem, then no one else can talk about it.

The 1D X II is a great camera and has compensating advantages. But, that doesn't mean I have to be happy that anytime I shoot a scene outside, my $6,000 camera is going to leave spots all over the sky. 

It is a problem. I have learned to live with it. Perhaps it is unavoidable with 1 Series cameras. I don't know. But, denying the facts only discourages Canon (and Nikon) from trying to fix it.


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## Cthulhu (Aug 8, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> Cthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



I rarely ever shoot at very narrow apertures, occasionally f8-f11 when birding which is rare, but oil splatter will show if you need to push shadows in post even at medium apertures, sometimes at any aperture. Sometimes it'll show without any modification to the image, it'll likely show up in the sky or light colored backgrounds, like this nice custom painted backdrop I have to use soon. Currently my "few spots" have been replaced by a big ol' blotch, so it's boxed to be sent back to Canon. 

You see I have a big project at the end of the month and can't trust my $6000 camera to not force me to correct dozens upon dozens of portraits, possibly discarding some, as it'll be printed and distributed nationwide. Currently I avoid having my main subjects on the left side of my images and often frame knowing I might have to crop that area out if it can't be fixed in post if oil shows up. I already know I'm going to have to bring an alternate black backdrop and had to schedule the shoot dates around having the camera serviced again.

Sooooo tell me again how that's worrying about the wrong things...


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## Mikehit (Aug 8, 2017)

Cthulhu said:


> I mean it happens on my body and not on others, what is this nonsense drivel you came up with? Whether or not you expect and understand it, I don't and neither does Canon. Are you seriously saying it's ok and fine for anyone to be selling cameras that splatter oil on their sensors? Canon certainly is not, neither is Nikon or any other brand on earth.



Will you get off your high horse and stop going into a tantrum when someone disagrees with you. I asked a question of what you meant by 'problem' and posited why Canon take the view they did. I made no comment on its legitimacy.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 8, 2017)

unfocused said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



Of course that is not what I am saying. 

What I am saying is there is an order of magnitude to symptoms and there is a tendency to elevate even the smallest one to the level of "serious issue" or "major problem" when, in fact, it is nothing but a mild inconvenience at worst or as is more normal nowadays, barely perceptible even under test conditions set up to exaggerate said symptom.

If you read through that Arthur Morris diatribe most of the people who now think they have a defective camera never even noticed the spots in their images prior to being told how to look for them! My point was does that really make it an "issue"? I think not. Besides, I practically never have an image that doesn't need some dust removing so adding in a few oil spots makes practically no difference to my workflow.

I included the Nikon link as an example of what an issue or problem does actually look like. If the sensor is getting covered in dozens of marks in as few as 20 shots then it becomes unworkable in post. Nothing I have seen from any of the 1DX MkII examples come close to this.


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## Aglet (Aug 8, 2017)

I had my new d800 not just deliver oil spots on the sensor, it delivered a huge blob after a few hundred shots!
I literally soaked it up with Q-tips, cleaned the whole thing and carried on. It's never put so much as a spec of oil out since then.
Stuff happens, clean your sensor and carry on.
I can agree this would be very frustrating it becomes a daily issue tho; I don't like cleaning sensors any more than I like banding in my images.


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## scyrene (Aug 8, 2017)

Cthulhu said:


> oil splatter will show if you need to push shadows in post



No. I've shot with dirty sensors and no. Spots/dust etc show up when you lower the exposure (darken the image), increase contrast, etc. *Raising* shadows would reduce the appearance of these things a little, or otherwise have no impact on them.


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## Sporgon (Aug 9, 2017)

Aglet said:


> I had my new d800 not just deliver oil spots on the sensor, it delivered a huge blob after a few hundred shots!
> I literally soaked it up with Q-tips, cleaned the whole thing and carried on. It's never put so much as a spec of oil out since then.
> Stuff happens, clean your sensor and carry on.
> I can agree this would be very frustrating it becomes a daily issue tho; I don't like cleaning sensors any more than I like banding in my images.



Good job the 5DII didn't splatter the sensor with oil then


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## Aglet (Aug 9, 2017)

Sporgon said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > I had my new d800 not just deliver oil spots on the sensor, it delivered a huge blob after a few hundred shots!
> ...



HAHA! I'd have driven over it with a road packer if it did that too! ;D
Only had to clean the usual landscape dust off it a few times.


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## deadwrong (Aug 24, 2017)

5div or 6d2 LOL - are you kidding me? Why cant Canon do this? 

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d850/nikon-d850A.HTM


I feel bad for the poor schmucks that bought 5div (6d2 is laughable now). Canon will have no choice but the fire back with better tech and your 5div and 6d2 (BAHAHA) will be a joke.

So sad.


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## Mikehit (Aug 24, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> 5div or 6d2 LOL - are you kidding me? Why cant Canon do this?
> 
> http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d850/nikon-d850A.HTM
> 
> ...



You mean the 6D2 is laughable because someone released a far more expensive camera that is not even in the same target market. You really are desperate aren't you.


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## Diko (Aug 24, 2017)

Nope. But still 5D4 is NOT 850D on a few levels:


Less MPs (yeah I know what 5DsR is) 
no tillt 
NO bluetooth. 

U know what I hate the most? 

Their damn mobile app Canon connect always ask me why I don't turn on bluetooth on my camera. Like they mock at me for purchasing their inferior product. :/


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## Mikehit (Aug 24, 2017)

Diko said:


> Nope. But still 5D4 is NOT 850D on a few levels:
> 
> 
> Less MPs (yeah I know what 5DsR is)
> ...



Nikon D850 - no GPS?
No log profiles for video?
Poor wifi
Crap service

How dumb.


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## chrysoberyl (Aug 24, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> Diko said:
> 
> 
> > Nope. But still 5D4 is NOT 850D on a few levels:
> ...



Sorry to be off-topic, but where are you that you have good Canon service? Statistically speaking, well, I can't because I've had only two experiences - but both experiences have been bad. Right now, my 80D is who knows where, because they did not ship it to the very clearly stated address. Sorry to whine, but I want to know of a good service center.


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## Mikehit (Aug 24, 2017)

chrysoberyl said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Diko said:
> ...



The service centre I have used in the UK is excellent

But even allowing for the vagaries of individual centres, the basic description of the service from Canon is beyond what Nikon or Sony offer.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 24, 2017)

chrysoberyl said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Diko said:
> ...



I have never had anything but superb service from Canon in the ten+ occasions I have sent them broken or warranty repairs.


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## chrysoberyl (Aug 24, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> I have never had anything but superb service from Canon in the ten+ occasions I have sent them broken or warranty repairs.



Are you stateside? My experience is with the Newport News, USA center.

I do appreciate your more statistically accurate assessment.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 24, 2017)

chrysoberyl said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > I have never had anything but superb service from Canon in the ten+ occasions I have sent them broken or warranty repairs.
> ...



Yes, I have used the Virginia and New Jersey Factory Service Centers and both have been great, though I preferred the turnaround and communication I get from NJ and only send stuff there now.


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## bholliman (Aug 24, 2017)

chrysoberyl said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > I have never had anything but superb service from Canon in the ten+ occasions I have sent them broken or warranty repairs.
> ...



My experience with both Newport News and New Jersey has been consistently outstanding. The best service, support and communication I've received with any consumer product. Its certainly a tiny sampling, but the other enthusiast and pros I know who shoot Canon, all report nothing but positive experiences as well.


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## dak723 (Aug 25, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> 5div or 6d2 LOL - are you kidding me? Why cant Canon do this?
> 
> http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d850/nikon-d850A.HTM
> 
> ...



I feel bad for the poor trolls who don't seem to grasp that the 5D IV and the 6D II will take excellent photos for many years to come - as will the Nikon D850 - as will every other ILC camera. The joke is on those who follow the better specs and waste uncounted time and money changing systems, buying and selling lenses and other accessories - and then discovering the differences between cameras and brands in actual usage is so small as to be meaningless. 

So sad.


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## slclick (Aug 25, 2017)

Obsolete, “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”


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## Tonywintn (Aug 25, 2017)

Geeks talk equipment, photographers talk technique.


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## scottkinfw (Aug 25, 2017)

Better, they buy the latest greatest, and their pics still suck.



dak723 said:


> deadwrong said:
> 
> 
> > 5div or 6d2 LOL - are you kidding me? Why cant Canon do this?
> ...


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## scottkinfw (Aug 25, 2017)

So Deadwrong, I see you have 32 posts, so welcome to our humble Canon site. Are you a troll by any chance, or do you just play the part of one on the interweb?


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## Adelino (Aug 25, 2017)

From a more practical standpoint, what impact will the 850 have? It really is a bit of a game shifter. Certainly it won't obsolete the Canons (rolling my eyes at the idiocy of that statement), however I am hoping it will help drive down prices faster than Canon would want. Also hopefully Canon will make sure that future products don't hold back as they have tended to do the last few years. What are your thoughts on that?


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## Mikehit (Aug 25, 2017)

Adelino said:


> From a more practical standpoint, what impact will the 850 have? It really is a bit of a game shifter. Certainly it won't obsolete the Canons (rolling my eyes at the idiocy of that statement), however I am hoping it will help drive down prices faster than Canon would want. Also hopefully Canon will make sure that future products don't hold back as they have tended to do the last few years. What are your thoughts on that?



I am not sure what on the D850 is a 'game shifter'. Do you care to elaborate?
I think Canon has seen for several years technically superior models from Nikon that have little effect on its own success. They see Nikons with more MP, more DR, 4k and tilty flippy that still underperform in sales terms compared to Canon - and, IMO, that tells Canon one thing: most people buy cameras to take stills and Canon is doing it right. 

However, where I do converge with your opinion is that they have fine tuned the interface so much that they cannot continue to rely on that, and trial by internet is becoming ever more prevalent and the marketing departments of any company cannot control that.


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## Talys (Aug 25, 2017)

Thought process of a person who thinks the 6DII and 5DIV will shortly be obsolete:

1. Ooooh look. Canon has a 5DIII that is getting rave reviews. I always wanted to take great pictures. I'm going to buy one and spend another $4,000 on lenses!

2. WTF. My pictures look worse than my cell phone pictures. $7,000 and you'd think that my pictures would be in FOCUS. Canon sucks. 

3. Ooooo look. Nikon has a D850 that is getting rave reviews. Screw this crap Canon. I'm going to buy one and spend another $4,000 on lenses!

4. WTF. My pictures still look worse than my cell phone photos. HOW COME I CAN'T GET ME AND THE CAR IN FOCUS FOR THE SELFIE??? WHY DOES THAT BIRD KEEP MOVING??

5. Goes back to Samsung Galaxy.

6. Conclusion: "Cell phone cameras are just as good as... BETTER THAN... DSLRs!"

Good riddance.

If your photos suck with 6D, 6DII, 5DIV, 5DIII, whatever... HINT: the problem isn't the DR, megapixels, AF points, or FPS. My other hobby is modelling, and it's much the same. People go and buy a $1,000 airbrush, and just expect that their output quality will improve by a factor of ten thousand, and then are disappointed when everything looks like poo. 

Without investing copious amounts of time, learning and improving by trial and error, there will not be quality finished product. The improvements to be gained by gear are miniscule in almost all cases, and all that high end equipment is often a lot harder to use for people who are unwilling or unable to invest the time in a steep learning curve than much cheaper alternatives.


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## scyrene (Aug 25, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> Adelino said:
> 
> 
> > From a more practical standpoint, what impact will the 850 have? It really is a bit of a game shifter. Certainly it won't obsolete the Canons (rolling my eyes at the idiocy of that statement), however I am hoping it will help drive down prices faster than Canon would want. Also hopefully Canon will make sure that future products don't hold back as they have tended to do the last few years. What are your thoughts on that?
> ...



+1

I think the new Nikon sounds great, and I wish them well. But the D800, and then the D810 were supposedly magic cameras that would change everything (according to online chatter), and a few years on, nothing much has changed.



Talys said:


> Without investing copious amounts of time, learning and improving by trial and error, there will not be quality finished product. The improvements to be gained by gear are miniscule in almost all cases, and all that high end equipment is often a lot harder to use for people who are unwilling or unable to invest the time in a steep learning curve than much cheaper alternatives.



Also +1


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## GlynH (Aug 25, 2017)

scyrene said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Adelino said:
> ...



Yup. All of this...


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## Adelino (Aug 27, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> Adelino said:
> 
> 
> > From a more practical standpoint, what impact will the 850 have? It really is a bit of a game shifter. Certainly it won't obsolete the Canons (rolling my eyes at the idiocy of that statement), however I am hoping it will help drive down prices faster than Canon would want. Also hopefully Canon will make sure that future products don't hold back as they have tended to do the last few years. What are your thoughts on that?
> ...



By game shifter I mean that, for the price, the 850 really nails a lot of performance/specs/features. There is very little that it does not bring and the price is very nice. I realize that Canon has superior ergonomics and support, but at a certain point they need to stay competitive on price/features. On reflection it looks like Canon could eclipse the 850 if they update the 5DS and hit key features that most people will expect (better DR, higher ISO capability, a bump in FPS, 4K, and touch screen). Price wise Canon may need to lower prices a bit though.


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## GMCPhotographics (Aug 27, 2017)

Oh dear...to the OP....you follow the MO of yet another Nikon / Sony fanboy with zero photographic experience decides to troll a Canon forum who do have members with years of professional photographic experience. Cameras do not take photographs....photographers do. The difference between a crappy photograph and an award winning photograph is the photographer...not the camera. 

Canon are the world leader in DSLR equipment in terms of sales. Nikon and Sony are 2nd and 3rd place and that's irrespective of features or back lit buttons. So to the OP...please either grow up and respect the forum here or go and crawl back under the delusional rock you came from and give us all a break.


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## SecureGSM (Aug 27, 2017)

There is an army of paid shills that are roaming around internet and leave flaming messages and engage in controversial discussion with a single purpose: discredit one brand and tilt the public opinion towards the other brand. there are also paid shills that do this for a particular political party or even at state level.
typical consumer would "research" the product before making final purchasing decision. not necessarily consumers deeply understand the intricacies of the subject but rely on the "professional opinion" or other users opinion instead.
once they come over inflammatory post or realise that the product they are looking to purchase seems to be outdated, lacking or incomplete ( oh, nooos, Canon cameras are for old men, buy Sony !!) they do dig deeper and deeper until the negativity takes over and they seek either alternative opinion or follow the advice of buying into "latest tech" instead.

ideally, these shills need be identified by Admins, posts removed and accounts banned.

Hint: I have not come across a single "Canon shill" posting on Nikon or Sony rumor site in years.
Sony and Nikon shills are on Canon rumor and news sites to discredit Canon as much as it is possible.
this social marketing technique is invasive and needs to be dealt with.



GMCPhotographics said:


> Oh dear...to the OP....you follow the MO of yet another Nikon / Sony fanboy with zero photographic experience decides to troll a Canon forum who do have members with years of professional photographic experience. Cameras do not take photographs....photographers do. The difference between a crappy photograph and an award winning photograph is the photographer...not the camera.
> 
> Canon are the world leader in DSLR equipment in terms of sales. Nikon and Sony are 2nd and 3rd place and that's irrespective of features or back lit buttons. So to the OP...please either grow up and respect the forum here or go and crawl back under the delusional rock you came from and give us all a break.


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## GMCPhotographics (Aug 27, 2017)

In the mean time....
Here's a link to my most popular photograph on Viewbug:

https://www.viewbug.com/photo/66813422

Taken on a humble Canon 5DmkII and a lowly 24-70L f2.8....who would have thought it!
No fancy Photoshop...just a tripod and good clean photographic technique.


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## scyrene (Aug 27, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> There is an army of paid shills that are roaming around internet and leave flaming messages and engage in controversial discussion with a single purpose: discredit one brand and tilt the public opinion towards the other brand. there are also paid shills that do this for a particular political party or even at state level.
> typical consumer would "research" the product before making final purchasing decision. not necessarily consumers deeply understand the intricacies of the subject but rely on the "professional opinion" or other users opinion instead.
> once they come over inflammatory post or realise that the product they are looking to purchase seems to be outdated, lacking or incomplete ( oh, nooos, Canon cameras are for old men, buy Sony !!) they do dig deeper and deeper until the negativity takes over and they seek either alternative opinion or follow the advice of buying into "latest tech" instead.
> 
> ...



It's worth pointing out that, inasmuch as we can know, many of the people who post unrealistically extreme views online in either direction are mostly not paid. There was an actual (empirical as far as it's possible to be in this area) study done a couple of years ago regarding online reviews, and it suggested that mostly, it's not corporate plants, but people who have a strong emotional attachment to brands, and who take it upon themselves to either trash perceived rivals, or to defend their own 'team'. Human nature, I guess... I agree though, that admins should be able to mitigate a lot of this. Clearly a brand new account that is spouting a very tired extreme line (e.g. 'I've been a Canon user for a hundred years but this lack of 1% extra DR in the newest body means I'm selling up and buying a Sony') is likely a troll/sockpuppet/call it what you will, and can be suspended. Websites seem unwilling to use the power they already have to keep hosted discourse functional.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 27, 2017)

scyrene said:


> SecureGSM said:
> 
> 
> > There is an army of paid shills that are roaming around internet and leave flaming messages and engage in controversial discussion with a single purpose: discredit one brand and tilt the public opinion towards the other brand. there are also paid shills that do this for a particular political party or even at state level.
> ...



Agree in that I wish the mods were more active. Of course there is a fine line between censorship and free speech etc, but I feel the pendulum has swung far enough to be detrimental to the forum. 

And it isn't just new account holders, there are some long time trolls that come back every time there is a new body release and go on and on and on across threads about how everybody should be shooting with an Olympus or anything that isn't a 'mirror slapper'. These people do not embrace spirited debate they are just trolling.


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## stevelee (Aug 27, 2017)

Moderating forums is usually not anybody's full time job. It could become as time consuming as one rather easily.

That said, Canon keeps ignoring my request that their cameras be able to load my dishwasher for me. I'm through with them. Selling all my gear and going back to Yashica!

I took my best pictures with a Yashica rangefinder camera with a 45mm lens. I sold that camera after I got my FT-QL.


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## Ozarker (Aug 27, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > SecureGSM said:
> ...



Well, speech on private property isn't protected by the Constitution anyway. The Constitution restrains government, not the individual. The Constitution doesn't grant rights. It is designed to restrict government from trampling natural rights.

So..... git 'em mods!


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## Dholai (Aug 27, 2017)

deadwrong,

I did not read all the posts but I did your original one.
Your name said it all- why elaborate!

Dholai


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## zim (Aug 27, 2017)

What constitution would that be then?

There is no such thing as a bad click on the interest. :


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## davidhfe (Aug 28, 2017)

This forum is crazy. The D850 is the camera I expected the 5D4 to be, at the 5D4's intro price, and everyone regresses into "but canon still leads the market", "the camera doesn't matter", or "here's a picture I took with my old 20D!" as if those statements are all mutually exclusive. Assuming the D850 doesn't have any major service issues (and come on, despite some recent misses Nikon is an incredibly solid brand) its a clear win for this segment/cycle.

No camera maker is going to live or die by one release, but as a 5D4 owner it definitely makes me wonder why Canon either a) could not or b) choose not to deliver [email protected] I love my 5D4 and would probably buy it again, even today, but it would seriously have made me think about switching systems. (Though probably not–I’m one of those crazies who thinks this is the last major release cycle for mirror box cameras and DPAF will likely continue to be a huge advantage for Canon)


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## Orangutan (Aug 28, 2017)

davidhfe said:


> makes me wonder why Canon either a) could not or b) choose not to deliver [email protected]


The D850 requires a battery grip for 9fps. Also, many photographers seem to think 45MP is too much to process. Look at it this way: Canon had the 5DS and 5D3 in the market at the same time, so they have a pretty good idea of what the target market wants. I would not be surprised to see a successor to the 5DS, but I'm not at all surprised that they left the MP count lower on the 5D4.


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## Don Haines (Aug 28, 2017)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Well, speech on private property isn't protected by the Constitution anyway. The Constitution restrains government, not the individual. The Constitution doesn't grant rights. It is designed to restrict government from trampling natural rights.
> 
> So..... git 'em mods!



It is a Canadian forum, so the US constitution has no bearing...... As Canadians, the moderators are restrained to be overly polite, at least until annoyed to the point that they unleash the killer beavers.......


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## unfocused (Aug 28, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> Agree in that I wish the mods were more active...



No. No. No. The last thing we need is to have moderators acting as mind police. If you are so insecure in your choices that you can't handle a little brand criticism that's your problem. If the price of free discussion and debate is a little trolling, so be it. 

When people make goofy statements about Canon being ******* or "sadly, the 6dm2 and 5div to be obsolete shortly" there is always a tide of people to refute their arguments. If you don't like the discussions, don't participate. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head forcing them to read these threads. 

If anything, I'd much rather the moderators go after certain long-time participants who resort to constant sarcasm and sniping when challenged. But overall, I most prefer to have the moderators sit back and simply shut down foul, sexist and racist language and leave the debate to the participants. 



davidhfe said:


> This forum is crazy.



I assume you didn't just now figure that out. 



davidhfe said:


> The D850 is the camera I expected the 5D4 to be, at the 5D4's intro price, and everyone regresses into "but canon still leads the market", "the camera doesn't matter", or "here's a picture I took with my old 20D!" as if those statements are all mutually exclusive. Assuming the D850 doesn't have any major service issues (and come on, despite some recent misses Nikon is an incredibly solid brand) its a clear win for this segment/cycle.
> 
> No camera maker is going to live or die by one release, but as a 5D4 owner it definitely makes me wonder why Canon either a) could not or b) choose not to deliver [email protected] I love my 5D4 and would probably buy it again, even today, but it would seriously have made me think about switching systems. (Though probably not–I’m one of those crazies who thinks this is the last major release cycle for mirror box cameras and DPAF will likely continue to be a huge advantage for Canon)



Legitimate criticism. On the other hand, the D850 is one year newer, so it's understandable that Nikon, with the advantage of being able to see what the competition was offering, took the opportunity to respond aggressively. Good for them and ultimately, good for all of us. 

I'm also not going to switch. But as a 1DX II owner, are there things I wish Canon would have done differently and things I'd like to see improved. Definitely.


----------



## Don Haines (Aug 28, 2017)

davidhfe said:


> No camera maker is going to live or die by one release, but as a 5D4 owner it definitely makes me wonder why Canon either a) could not or b) choose not to deliver [email protected]



I would postulate that it is because there is a new version of the 5DS coming down the pipe, and that if you want a high megapixel camera, it will probably be around 60Mp.... but almost certainly not at 9Fps (at least in high res mode)


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 28, 2017)

unfocused said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Agree in that I wish the mods were more active...
> ...


Do you really believe I am insecure? 

It's not that I am afraid of spirited debate, it's that I am against an avalanche of lies, deceits, and utter ridiculousness that takes so long to wade through the gems are simply not worth the effort. That puts people off the whole idea of the forum and they look elsewhere.

I have been censured several times, yet I believe my involvement has a net positive impact around here, I hope it does. Other vastly more provocative repetitive and aggressive posters seem to breeze along without a care, they contribute nothing positive and pay no price for the negative impact they have. 

Something good can't last long if that status quo continues, surely that is obvious?


----------



## unfocused (Aug 28, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> Do you really believe I am insecure?



No. I meant "you" in a generic, general sense. Not "you" particularly.

To clarify, I am thinking of people on both sides of the debate.

Those who seem to take it personally when Canon doesn't offer class-leading features in each and every category and on each and every body. Those who insist that Canon is failing because there is one particular feature or design they personally want, that Canon has not offered. Some seem so wrapped up in having the shiniest new toy that it appears their own self-worth is tied to their possessions.

The other side of the coin are those that cannot accept any criticism of their position or of Canon itself. They even cry "bias" whenever a reviewer criticizes Canon. They seem incapable of understanding that a good review site should identify the flaws in a product and not just repeat the press release talking points. 

And, then there are those on both sides of debates who simply cannot let a point go, but must challenge every perceived disagreement and whose default position is always insults and sarcasm.



privatebydesign said:


> It's not that I am afraid of spirited debate, it's that I am against an avalanche of lies, deceits, and utter ridiculousness that takes so long to wade through the gems are simply not worth the effort. That puts people off the whole idea of the forum and they look elsewhere...
> 
> ...Something good can't last long if that status quo continues, surely that is obvious?



I don't think it is obvious. I've been following this site since before Canon Rumors Guy even created the forum.

What I have witnessed far more frequently than people leaving the forum because of trolling and criticism of Canon is the actions of one or two know-it-alls who have driven others off the forum. Some of those that were driven off were quite honestly, dunderheads. But, I still don't like bullying. In fact, I'd put up with 1,000 dunderheads if it meant the bullying was banned. 

Still, ultimately, the quality of the debate on the forum is the responsibility of everyone who participates. I'd rather put up with a handful of fools -- most of whom get shot down pretty regularly -- than deal with the personal whims of aggressive moderators.


----------



## stevelee (Aug 28, 2017)

Photographer Switches Camera Systems, Instantly Becomes Master - Fstoppers
https://apple.news/A_sTGxyYDO2CKX-7bhWM43w


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## privatebydesign (Aug 28, 2017)

unfocused said:


> I'd rather put up with a handful of fools -- most of whom get shot down pretty regularly -- than deal with the personal whims of aggressive moderators.



Framed like that I can't argue.


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## tron (Aug 28, 2017)

I would not leave a site simply because of a few trolls, idiots or as neuro - I think - pointed out quite realistically "both trolls and idiots". I would rather call them like that - I would give them however the benefit of the doubt and I would rather let themselves choose between the two ;D ....

The best defence is the offence like:

1. Show us your photos or even better:

2. So go get a Sony or Nikon and leave us alone to enjoy Canon and this forum.

I believe both of the above answers are within limits and moderators wouldn't care...


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## scyrene (Aug 28, 2017)

unfocused said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Agree in that I wish the mods were more active...
> ...



"Mind police" indeed :

You're right of course, we aren't forced to participate here. But the problem with a classical 'allow all speech (except hate speech etc)' model is, as we see all over the internet, it breaks down when people don't all play by the same rules. Actually, CR seems to be one of the mildest online forums I've seen, and I can put up with what I see here. Nonetheless, the people setting up new accounts to say the same old thing (and it wouldn't surprise me if it's a few people creating a lot of accounts) aren't playing by the rules as you or I try to. If the upshot is people who have interesting perspectives or specialist knowledge stop participating because they're sick of having the same circular, ill-informed arguments with trolls (in the truest sense), then the forum ceases to have a purpose.

Incidentally, I reckon sarcasm and sniping is a small price to pay for people not being bored off by the trolls.



unfocused said:


> Still, ultimately, the quality of the debate on the forum is the responsibility of everyone who participates. I'd rather put up with a handful of fools -- most of whom get shot down pretty regularly -- than deal with the personal whims of aggressive moderators.



Let's be clear, we're not asking for anyone critical of Canon to be banned. But it's clear that brand new accounts that spout a very tired and inaccurate line are souring debate and discussion here - and some are doubtless sockpuppets. Action could be something as simple as, accounts have to have posted a certain nuber of times before they can create a topic (like this one).


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## tron (Aug 28, 2017)

I try - and prefer - to be polite and ... let some people chose between being troll or idiots ;D ;D ;D 

But, I wonder about everyone not being able to understand what is comparing apples to oranges like
comparing the 30Mp 5D4 or the 26Mp 6DII with Nikon's - future since it cannot produce pictures TODAY - 42Mp D850. At least they prove they are ignorant of Canon products like the 50Mp 5Ds and 5DsR and even Nikon's 24Mp products like D750 and D610.


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## Maximilian (Aug 28, 2017)

scyrene said:


> Action could be something as simple as, accounts have to have posted a certain nuber of times before they can create a topic (like this one).


AFAIK this is still intact, see here
https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=26461.msg521507#msg521507 

But please don't ask me how much


> a sufficient number of posts


 is.


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## Mikehit (Aug 28, 2017)

I don't have a problem with some of the stupid troll-like comments that come along every now and again (and the OP on this thread is typical).
What grates is when they make the same asinine comments repeatedly and they get the same reponse (what a surprise!), instead of debating they come the whiney assed accusations of 'fanboy', 'Canon shill', 'scared of progress'. It is the inability to actually engage in conversation that is the problem.
There is the old saying 'if you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you have always got', and it holds on internet debates as well.

I have been on sites where they have been very lax on moderation and their only requirements are hold back on the personal insults and people posting the same comments repeatedly with no intention of debate are liable to be suspended. Both are evidence based so less likely to be at the capricious whim of a moderator. .


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## JohanCruyff (Aug 28, 2017)

stevelee said:


> Photographer Switches Camera Systems, Instantly Becomes Master - Fstoppers
> https://apple.news/A_sTGxyYDO2CKX-7bhWM43w


 
So true...
In fact, when I changed my printer, I became a famous writer in a few days.


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## tron (Aug 28, 2017)

JohanCruyff said:


> stevelee said:
> 
> 
> > Photographer Switches Camera Systems, Instantly Becomes Master - Fstoppers
> ...


 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


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## Don Haines (Aug 28, 2017)

tron said:


> I try - and prefer - to be polite and ... let some people chose between being troll or idiots ;D ;D ;D
> 
> But, I wonder about everyone not being able to understand what is comparing apples to oranges like
> comparing the 30Mp 5D4 or the 26Mp 6DII with Nikon's - future since it cannot produce pictures TODAY - 42Mp D850. At least they prove they are ignorant of Canon products like the 50Mp 5Ds and 5DsR and even Nikon's 24Mp products like D750 and D610.



I agree!

When you see comparisons of new tech from company A against old tech of company B, a comparison that fixates on one aspect of a camera and tries to extrapolate that one aspect into the entire corporate lineup, or a top of the line camera from A against a mid or low level camera from B, you know that there is so much bias that reading any further is futile.....


----------



## Mikehit (Aug 29, 2017)

Tokyotim said:


> New member here. Frustrated with my 6dm2. Only posting this so I can start my own topic. Nothing to see here. Move along...



At least you are honest and not just wading in with negative vibes. Make it worthwhile ;D


----------



## scyrene (Aug 29, 2017)

Maximilian said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Action could be something as simple as, accounts have to have posted a certain nuber of times before they can create a topic (like this one).
> ...



Ah, that makes sense, thanks!

Although...



Tokyotim said:


> New member here. Frustrated with my 6dm2. Only posting this so I can start my own topic. Nothing to see here. Move along...



The system can be gamed (and it looks like it doesn't take many posts to do this).


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## OSOK (Aug 30, 2017)

The 6D mark II was obsolete the day it was announced. I have yet to see a single positive review across the web, whether it be a site, blog, vlog or youtube. Even the pro-Canon sites, you can tell they struggle to promote it. Videos and reviewers work hard not to bash the camera out of respect for Canon or to maintain professionalism. They frame it in the most positive light possible despite its shortcomings. Others outright mock it and say it how it is.

The 5D Mark IV is a different story. It wasn't received by the industry with huge delight, but it wasn't criticized other than the 4K capability. As a stills camera, it is good. While it has been easily surpassed by the D850 in every single area except for DPAF, it is still a great camera that is relevant to the features and quality expected today. It literally only has DPAF as an advantage and nothing else in comparison to the D850. 

The 6D2 is being torn to pieces over its questionable IQ, and that was unexpected as the rest of the camera's specs were weak and should have been the focus of the negative reviews. It was a surprise that the IQ stole the spotlight of negativity. The articulating screen is nice, but no one cares when it is attached to a sub-par body.

The 6D and 5D3 generation did not get leapfrogged by Nikon's D610, D750 and D810 nearly as bad as the 6D2 and 5D4 have by the D850 and who knows how stacked the D760 will be.

Canon either blundered or is genius in their assessment of the market. There's no in between. To me, it looks like they are pushing upmarket. This is evident by their total and intentional crippling of video capability in their DSLR except the 1DX2. The 6D2 was the full frame 80D Canon users wanted and nothing more. May be popular within their own ecosystem, but is not popular in the wider industry. Canon offers the entry level Rebel popular stuff, and a couple nice enthusiast cameras. Then it jumps to pro bodies at the 5D series and up. The 6D2 is a bit of an oddball as it's there for the large customer base of entry level and enthusiast body owners who want to make the jump to a FF sensor and not much more. It serves that purpose perfectly. These are people who don't need 5D features or specs. They just want a FF sensor wrapped by enthusiast features and body.

There you have it. If you fall into the target market - it isn't such a bad camera. For everyone else, it is relic from the past being sold as a new body.

As for the 5D Mark IV, Canon users with arsenals of serious glass will not care one bit what Nikon is doing - that camera will churn out great IQ day in day out. It is still an amazing body regardless of how good the D850 is.


----------



## Mikehit (Aug 30, 2017)

blah blah...cripling...bah blah...nerfing...blah blah...old technology...blah blah...aren't Canon users a bunch of dummies...

Review sites have to find something to criticise - it is why they exist. Comparing cameras and manufacturers i the nature of the beast. On the other hand, the people who really matter - those actually buying the thing - say that _as a camera _ (you know, something used tot take pictures) it is a significant improvement over the 6D. 
Or do you only read review sites and ignore real-world comments? 



> May be popular within their own ecosystem, but is not popular in the wider industry.



You don't get it do you?
A company makes a very small number of flagship models, the ones that grab the attention and create aspirations of ownership. Not every model is designed to have people swapping systems - not Canon, not Nikon, not Sony. No-one. Most models are there to keep the existing customers happy and give them lines of progressions and your opinion matters not one jot - what matters is how many people keep buying Canon. 
So will you please PLEASE stop blathering on about 'intentional crippling' and how it is a 'relic from the past sold as a new body'. Not even the sensor can be called a 'relic from the past'. It is an upgrade from the 6D and that is all it was ever meant to be.


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## dak723 (Aug 30, 2017)

OSOK said:


> The 6D mark II was obsolete the day it was announced. I have yet to see a single positive review across the web, whether it be a site, blog, vlog or youtube. Even the pro-Canon sites, you can tell they struggle to promote it. Videos and reviewers work hard not to bash the camera out of respect for Canon or to maintain professionalism. They frame it in the most positive light possible despite its shortcomings. Others outright mock it and say it how it is.



Feel free to be another mindless troll repeating the same garbage. It's Ok with me if you want to look like a fool. There have been numerous posts on this forum from folks that have purchased the new 6D II and they all seem to be in agreement that the camera is performing much better than they expected and is better in every way compared to the 6D.


----------



## Sarpedon (Aug 30, 2017)

scyrene said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but the blame can't all go to the new accounts and trolls. There are people on this forum who are so used to arguing with trolls that they can't tell the difference between trolls and honest disagreement. And far too often the argument doesn't even start with a troll, but with a person who has spent too long arguing with trolls complaining about them before they even appear. Check out the beginning of new threads, it happens all the time. Preemptively complaining sours the mood and promotes conflict. Overreaction to honest disagreement sours the mood and promotes conflict. Trolls suck, but some people here really need to take responsibility for their behavior.


----------



## Don Haines (Aug 30, 2017)

dak723 said:


> OSOK said:
> 
> 
> > The 6D mark II was obsolete the day it was announced. I have yet to see a single positive review across the web, whether it be a site, blog, vlog or youtube. Even the pro-Canon sites, you can tell they struggle to promote it. Videos and reviewers work hard not to bash the camera out of respect for Canon or to maintain professionalism. They frame it in the most positive light possible despite its shortcomings. Others outright mock it and say it how it is.
> ...



Yes......

Got a 6D2, seems to work well, my only complaint so far is that Focal does not support it yet..... oh well, will try the manual AFMA method this weekend.....


----------



## Mikehit (Aug 30, 2017)

Sarpedon said:


> I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but the blame can't all go to the new accounts and trolls. There are people on this forum who are so used to arguing with trolls that they can't tell the difference between trolls and honest disagreement. And far too often the argument doesn't even start with a troll, but with a person who has spent too long arguing with trolls complaining about them before they even appear. Check out the beginning of new threads, it happens all the time. Preemptively complaining sours the mood and promotes conflict. Overreaction to honest disagreement sours the mood and promotes conflict. Trolls suck, but some people here really need to take responsibility for their behavior.



I agree with you. 
But when you have several people starting accounts simply so they can complain about the latest Canon camera, it is hard to not be cynical. 
If someone posts and is willing to participate in discussion that is one thing, but when all they do is repeat the same tired old criticisms and don't actually bring anything new to the table I think it is acceptable to call them out. And if that means overreacting to some seriously held opinions then that is collateral damage.
In any social interaction, people 'earn the right' to have their opinions taken seriously and that applies to internet forums as much as meeting people in a bar or at any other social gathering. If at a social gathering someone you did not know decided to criticise something you think seriously about without any pre-amble or any explanation of where they are coming from, would you give them the time of day?


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## BillB (Aug 30, 2017)

OSOK said:


> The 6D mark II was obsolete the day it was announced. I have yet to see a single positive review across the web, whether it be a site, blog, vlog or youtube. Even the pro-Canon sites, you can tell they struggle to promote it. Videos and reviewers work hard not to bash the camera out of respect for Canon or to maintain professionalism. They frame it in the most positive light possible despite its shortcomings. Others outright mock it and say it how it is.
> 
> The 5D Mark IV is a different story. It wasn't received by the industry with huge delight, but it wasn't criticized other than the 4K capability. As a stills camera, it is good. While it has been easily surpassed by the D850 in every single area except for DPAF, it is still a great camera that is relevant to the features and quality expected today. It literally only has DPAF as an advantage and nothing else in comparison to the D850.
> 
> ...



I'm not quite sure how a camera that meets need of its target audience is obsolete, especially a camera introduced at the $2000 price point. A lot of very good photographs can and will be taken by 6DII cameras, just like a lot of very good photographs were taken by 6Ds. Often, camera specs don't have any practical impact on the quality of the photograph. At least as far as I am concerned, the 6DII's articulated screen and touchscreen focussing are useful features, which don't square with your contention that there is nothing new in the 6DII.


----------



## Sarpedon (Aug 30, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> Sarpedon said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but the blame can't all go to the new accounts and trolls. There are people on this forum who are so used to arguing with trolls that they can't tell the difference between trolls and honest disagreement. And far too often the argument doesn't even start with a troll, but with a person who has spent too long arguing with trolls complaining about them before they even appear. Check out the beginning of new threads, it happens all the time. Preemptively complaining sours the mood and promotes conflict. Overreaction to honest disagreement sours the mood and promotes conflict. Trolls suck, but some people here really need to take responsibility for their behavior.
> ...



My point wasn't so much that trolls shouldn't be confronted (though I think that's often a waste of time). It's that the "collateral damage" you speak of isn't a minor, incidental by-product of trolls, but a major factor in the tenor of this forum's worst threads; and that it's something that comes not only from dealing with trolls, but from the bad habits and character traits of the people who are lashing out indiscriminately, which is why I said people should take responsibility for their behavior. 

To take the scenario you lay out: if some random person came up to me and started rudely criticizing something I thought seriously about, with no preamble, I'd tell him off. But if someone came up to me and stated his disagreement plainly, I wouldn't tell him off. My point is that the second guy in this hypothetical comes to this forum and often gets yelled at, and that people start yelling at the first guy _even when he's not there_. 

I also think_ some_ (emphasis on "some"!) of these trolls are just people being a little hysterical because some new camera didn't have the feature they were expecting. Those people should have their mistakes explained to them politely. I've seen that happen and it's much more effective. Too often, though, someone drops in to insult that person and brag childishly about Canon's market share.


----------



## Don Haines (Aug 31, 2017)

BillB said:


> OSOK said:
> 
> 
> > The 6D mark II was obsolete the day it was announced. I have yet to see a single positive review across the web, whether it be a site, blog, vlog or youtube. Even the pro-Canon sites, you can tell they struggle to promote it. Videos and reviewers work hard not to bash the camera out of respect for Canon or to maintain professionalism. They frame it in the most positive light possible despite its shortcomings. Others outright mock it and say it how it is.
> ...



I shot a lot of star pictures last weekend, the tilt-swivel screen was a fantastic feature to have......

I shot a lot of birds from my canoe tonight.... the extra AF points were great to have......

I shot a lot of pictures last month inside a poorly lit cottage, the high ISO was great to have.....

The extra megapixels make cropping better and capture more detail, it's great to have.....

I shot some cloud time lapse, another function that's great to have......

I put the camera on a tripod beside a feeder, wireless control is great to have......

The in body stabilization of video really works, a great feature to have.....

There is a lot more to a camera than a sensor!


----------



## deadwrong (Aug 31, 2017)

Hey, I like the 5div for stills.......TODAY, but by this time next year......these cameras are NOT future proofed AT ALL. Do i spend 5G's on a camera that will be laughable in 6-8 months? Sony will be next with the A7riii.

Nikon is stepping up with the d850 and giving just about exactly what most want in a good all around camera and creating some excitement.

I would say the 5div has the DPAF is all it has going for it at the moment in my eye.


6dii was a big JOKE. Sorry for all those that got suckered into buying that.


----------



## Jopa (Aug 31, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> Hey, I like the 5div for stills.......TODAY, but by this time next year......these cameras are NOT future proofed AT ALL. Do i spend 5G's on a camera that will be laughable in 6-8 months? Sony will be next with the A7riii.
> 
> Nikon is stepping up with the d850 and giving just about exactly what most want in a good all around camera and creating some excitement.
> 
> ...



You must be a real troll pro unlike the other amateurs with their old school Canon cameras on this forum. _I would love to see your work_ and learn from you...


----------



## stevelee (Aug 31, 2017)

Of course all of our electronic gadgets are obsolete by the time they come to market. One can choose between what is available at a given time or wait for the next great thing. One might continue to wait ad infinitum and never be bothered with the expense of purchases and the burden of using actual cameras and taking actual pictures.


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## unfocused (Aug 31, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> ...I like the 5div for stills.......TODAY, but by this time next year......these cameras are NOT future proofed AT ALL...
> 
> ...Nikon is stepping up with the d850...



I see your screen name remains 100% accurate.

Seriously, if you are that excited about the new Nikon or the next Sony, by all means buy it. I only ask that you post some pictures so we can all see how these cameras have made you a great photographer. (Might be good to post some before and after shots comparing Canon to Nikon or Sony.)


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## Mikehit (Aug 31, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> Do i spend 5G's on a camera that will be laughable in 6-8 months? Sony will be next with the A7riii.



Why would a camera costing 5G be laughable in 6-8 months? If your opinion of a camera changes just because a manufacturer has brought out another model then that says more about you than it does about the qualities of the camera.


----------



## Ladislav (Aug 31, 2017)

Bla bla bla. Is your car obsolete because some other manufacturer released a car which has better acceleration?


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## LonelyBoy (Aug 31, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> Sarpedon said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but the blame can't all go to the new accounts and trolls. There are people on this forum who are so used to arguing with trolls that they can't tell the difference between trolls and honest disagreement. And far too often the argument doesn't even start with a troll, but with a person who has spent too long arguing with trolls complaining about them before they even appear. Check out the beginning of new threads, it happens all the time. Preemptively complaining sours the mood and promotes conflict. Overreaction to honest disagreement sours the mood and promotes conflict. Trolls suck, but some people here really need to take responsibility for their behavior.
> ...



And I just got a warning for observing the same thing. It's a shame; if CRGuy's preference is to allow new users to come in and be inflammatory, and punish those who call out the antisocial behavior, there's not much point in clicking past the front page to see what might be coming out soon.


----------



## scyrene (Aug 31, 2017)

Sarpedon said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Sarpedon said:
> ...



Yeah. It is very hard to tell sometimes, maybe a lot of the time - I think part of the problem is the 'true' trolls have created and sustained a narrative, and other people repeat it without realising its provenance or unreliability. I always try to give new people the benefit of the doubt, but I also don't want to be naive. And mostly people do have their mistakes calmly explained, but after a while, it gets very trying. In your scenario, instead of it being face to face, imagine if you got a letter every few days appearing to be from a different person each time, but essentially saying the same thing. Wouldn't you eventually tire of politely replying?

And sure, the sarcastic pre-emptive 'Canon is *******' posts from regulars aren't very funny but I don't think they make much difference - naysayers pop up anyhow.


----------



## Ian_of_glos (Aug 31, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> Hey, I like the 5div for stills.......TODAY, but by this time next year......these cameras are NOT future proofed AT ALL. Do i spend 5G's on a camera that will be laughable in 6-8 months? Sony will be next with the A7riii.
> 
> Nikon is stepping up with the d850 and giving just about exactly what most want in a good all around camera and creating some excitement.
> 
> ...



Sorry, but I do not understand these comments. What happens to a camera after 6-8 months to render it obsolete? Do some of the functions stop working, or are you just saying that there might be a camera available by then that has some slightly better features? If the latter then I fail to see how that invalidates the choices we make today - there will always be some better features in the future, but if you think that is important then you are completely missing the point of photography. A competent photographer will be able to produce good results with just about any camera that is available today. 
Recently I went on holiday to the far east and as I was going to be visiting some areas with a high crime rate I decided to take my 5D mark 3 rather than risk losing my new 5D mark 4. The results I obtained with the 5D mark 3 were excellent and there were only a very few occasions where I missed the ability of my 5D mk 4 to focus in very low light. Overall the 5D mark 3 did very well - not bad for a camera which you believe became obsolete over 5 years ago.


----------



## Sharlin (Aug 31, 2017)

To think about all the pros who still earn their bread with such antiquated equipment as the 5D3, or even one of the pre-X 1D's, or - gasp - the original 6D! I can't fathom how anyone could pay real money for photos that are obviously technically inferior :


----------



## Sarpedon (Aug 31, 2017)

scyrene said:


> Sarpedon said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...



I respectfully disagree! Those sarcastic posts pop up all the time. They're in nearly every page of every gear talk thread. One just popped up right now!

I'm also not sure that the trolls are responsible for the narrative. You can see the same complaints echoed in the camera press. The trolls, I think, just exaggerate it. (For instance, the Canon 6D II's dynamic range is perfectly adequate for the majority of scenarios. It isn't terrible by any means. But it is below average in its class. The camera press highlights the latter because comparisons are what they do, and the trolls run with it and exaggerate because that's what they do.)

I get that these people, appearing one after another on so many threads, are trying, but that gets back to my point about people being responsible for their own behavior. When someone's default mode of expression is condescension and sarcasm, something is wrong.


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## scyrene (Aug 31, 2017)

Sarpedon said:


> I'm also not sure that the trolls are responsible for the narrative. You can see the same complaints echoed in the camera press. The trolls, I think, just exaggerate it. (For instance, the Canon 6D II's dynamic range is perfectly adequate for the majority of scenarios. It isn't terrible by any means. But it is below average in its class. The camera press highlights the latter because comparisons are what they do, and the trolls run with it and exaggerate because that's what they do.)
> 
> I get that these people, appearing one after another on so many threads, are trying, but that gets back to my point about people being responsible for their own behavior. When someone's default mode of expression is condescension and sarcasm, something is wrong.



Well sure, I guess it's more complicated than I made it sound. DPR certainly stokes the fires - and fwiw I think they mostly genuinely believe their own hype re dynamic range etc. And skimming the comments on there, the level of debate here is much better, even with trolls and suchlike - at least things get discussed, dissected, and there are people willing to explain and provide evidence where possible. I think a lot of the trolling is casual folk spun off other forums, who come here and take a pop because they find it amusing somehow.

But as for sarcasm, I'll have to repeat myself - why should the regulars here have infinite patience? Especially when vocal newbies almost immediately reach for terms like 'fanboy' and 'shill', when mostly all people here are doing is saying, hey maybe Canon knows more about selling cameras than randoms on the internet?

With regard to the 6D2 in particular, I think even the most pro-Canon people here have accepted its weaknesses. But it has been perplexing to see the tone of discussion turn around once its DR was shown to be less good than the 5D4's (or 80D's), because all the other reasonable wishes from 6D users were granted, from what I can gather. Even more perplexing is the AF point spread, which is 100% normal for a FF camera and not in any way defincient compared to other Canon bodies or other brands, but which has already been accepted as truth by most of the vocal critics here.


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## stevelee (Aug 31, 2017)

Sarcasm is given credit for the invention of potato chips. Supposedly some wealthy lady kept complaining that the potatoes weren't sliced thin enough. The exasperated chef sliced them ridiculously thin for her.


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## LonelyBoy (Aug 31, 2017)

scyrene said:


> Sarpedon said:
> 
> 
> > I'm also not sure that the trolls are responsible for the narrative. You can see the same complaints echoed in the camera press. The trolls, I think, just exaggerate it. (For instance, the Canon 6D II's dynamic range is perfectly adequate for the majority of scenarios. It isn't terrible by any means. But it is below average in its class. The camera press highlights the latter because comparisons are what they do, and the trolls run with it and exaggerate because that's what they do.)
> ...



Amen. And you're not even allowed to point it out.


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## Quirkz (Aug 31, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> deadwrong said:
> 
> 
> > Do i spend 5G's on a camera that will be laughable in 6-8 months? Sony will be next with the A7riii.
> ...



Ironically, Sony is notorious for 'obseleting' it's cameras very quickly with a new model every couple of years


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## jeffa4444 (Aug 31, 2017)

I was at a sporting event yesterday I counted twenty two press photographers, one had a Nikon cameras, one had Sony cameras and twenty Canon. I guess Canon must be quaking in their boots at the lack of innovation and competitive products they have in the market!


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## Talys (Aug 31, 2017)

jeffa4444 said:


> I was at a sporting event yesterday I counted twenty two press photographers, one had a Nikon cameras, one had Sony cameras and twenty Canon. I guess Canon must be quaking in their boots at the lack of innovation and competitive products they have in the market!



As Mikehit pointed out, they're surely all A9's with metabones sporting Canon glass 













Many folks who really like other systems acknowledge that the high end Canon glass is superior, but add the caveat, "if you really need that kind of thing". WHY ELSE DO YOU BUY A HIGH END BODY?


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## stevelee (Aug 31, 2017)

The white L lenses look cool.

The people I've talked with who shoot high school football games either already owned or were planning to buy a particular Canon body that is particularly well suited to that task. I don't recall whether it is the 7D or the 70D, but I think one of those.


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## ritholtz (Aug 31, 2017)

Canon kept on selling 5d3 for years more than any camera. Nikon and Sony threw so many models with much superior sensors. No way they are going to over throw 5d4 with much better and competitive sensor. I am assuming 5d3 was best selling FF dslr. Otherwise I am completely wrong.


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## applecider (Sep 1, 2017)

I think part of the disappointment with the 6D2 is that we were spoiled by the 6D1 sensor and we the public created the myth that the 6 line was where we were going to see new sensor tech. Turned out that that scenario was wishful thinking. Now it is the 5DSR wink wink.

In an ideal world shooting at ISO 12800 or higher could be done noiselessly and thus fast glass would be unnecessary and photography cheaper, gear lighter and the internet full of what you had for dinner.


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## Talys (Sep 1, 2017)

applecider said:


> In an ideal world shooting at ISO 12800 or higher could be done noiselessly and thus fast glass would be unnecessary and photography cheaper, gear lighter and the internet full of what you had for dinner.



I own the common 2.8's and some primes that are faster, and tbh, it's very rare that i take a shot wide open just to lower ISO or to allow low light photography -- because usually, if I can't make the shot at f/4 shot, even if there's technically enough light to expose at f/1.4 and a nice ISO, it's going to be a bland, contrast-free shot. Usually, those big apertures are to isolate the subject, or even a part of the subject, and a lot of the money goes into dreamy bokeh.

Generally, if I don't need the isolation, f/4 is just fine. When photographing wildlife, f/8 isn't bad if there's enough light to support it, because you get a little more wiggle room when it comes to focus.

By the way, even if high ISO quality became a lot better (and I'm really AMAZED at how well 6DII's high ISO photos clean up), you would still need to spend huge bucks if you want to have the best tools -- isn't JUST about the aperture size. Those L lenses are more contrasty, sharper (sometimes much, much sharper), focus faster, and built better. With zoom lenses, consumer lenses are like, a fifth the weight and size (or less), with way bigger focal ranges, which is perfect for the target market. 

But if you're really a photography enthusiast, you're likely to find, for example, that the 70mm or 300mm photos from a $300 70-300mm lens are pretty cruddy compared to the same lens at 150mm, if you change your distance to the subject. And, you'll notice that the center is pretty sharp, veer towards the edges, and everything is fuzzy. So, sorry, but expensive lens aren't going anywhere soon, regardless of sensor improvements


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## tron (Sep 1, 2017)

applecider said:


> I think part of the disappointment with the 6D2 is that we were spoiled by the 6D1 sensor and we the public created the myth that the 6 line was where we were going to see new sensor tech. Turned out that that scenario was wishful thinking. Now it is the 5DSR wink wink.
> 
> In an ideal world shooting at ISO 12800 or higher could be done noiselessly and thus fast glass would be unnecessary and photography cheaper, gear lighter and the internet full of what you had for dinner.


Actually I remember an interview of Canon's CEO where he had said that they always use the best sensor available. So even if I got 5D4 I believe what they did with 6D2 was a foul. 6D2 can still sell like hot cakes but its price has to get to the current price of 6D.


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## SecureGSM (Sep 1, 2017)

You mean you open up the aperture only when you need to let more light in? right, I thought so. Oh, wait, why do they shoot wide open with large aperture primes again? hint: bokeh



applecider said:


> *In an ideal world shooting at ISO 12800 or higher could be done noiselessly and thus fast glass would be unnecessary*and photography cheaper, gear lighter and the internet full of what you had for dinner.


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## SecureGSM (Sep 1, 2017)

I am convinced that was the strategy behind the 6D II: design and build an entry level FF camera that will be profitable to sell even at US$1,500.00 level mid to long term. Hence the sensor choice. 




tron said:


> ... 6D2 can still sell like hot cakes but its price has to get to the current price of 6D.


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## Don Haines (Sep 1, 2017)

applecider said:


> In an ideal world shooting at ISO 12800 or higher could be done noiselessly and thus fast glass would be unnecessary and photography cheaper, gear lighter and the internet full of what you had for dinner.



In an ideal world, there would always be enough light....


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## Jopa (Sep 1, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> applecider said:
> 
> 
> > In an ideal world shooting at ISO 12800 or higher could be done noiselessly and thus fast glass would be unnecessary and photography cheaper, gear lighter and the internet full of what you had for dinner.
> ...



In ideal world people won't need cameras


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## SecureGSM (Sep 1, 2017)

I guess, Melbourne is the capital of the Ideal World then as 99% of people here are happily snap-shooting away with their iPhones and Samsung Galaxy gizmos ;D



Jopa said:


> In ideal world people won't need cameras


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## Jopa (Sep 1, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> I guess, Melbourne is the capital of the Ideal World then as 99% of people here are happily snap-shooting away with their iPhones and Samsung Galaxy gizmos ;D
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those are still cameras!


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## SecureGSM (Sep 1, 2017)

ah, gotcha! wait.. if those are "still cameras", how do they manage to grab Instagram and Snapchat videos with them? ;D


Jopa said:


> Those are still cameras!


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## Jopa (Sep 1, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> ah, gotcha! wait.. if those are "still cameras", how do they manage to grab instagram videos with them? ;D
> 
> 
> Jopa said:
> ...



LOL


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## Mikehit (Sep 1, 2017)

tron said:


> applecider said:
> 
> 
> > I think part of the disappointment with the 6D2 is that we were spoiled by the 6D1 sensor and we the public created the myth that the 6 line was where we were going to see new sensor tech. Turned out that that scenario was wishful thinking. Now it is the 5DSR wink wink.
> ...



And I think that raises on interesting question: why was the 6D2 sensor designed like it was? I presume the technicians had a specific objective in mind and wanted to resolve specific issue(s) so it would be interesting to know what that was and whether they had achieved it. 
For example, the D5 has been widely acknowledged to take a hit on DR but with benefits elsewhere in the picture-making chain. What was the logic behind the 6D2. If it was simply 'because it is cheaper', then it does add to your comment.


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## jester73 (Sep 1, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> And I think that raises on interesting question: why was the 6D2 sensor designed like it was? I presume the technicians had a specific objective in mind and wanted to resolve specific issue(s) so it would be interesting to know what that was and whether they had achieved it.
> For example, the D5 has been widely acknowledged to take a hit on DR but with benefits elsewhere in the picture-making chain. What was the logic behind the 6D2. If it was simply 'because it is cheaper', then it does add to your comment.


Another possible reason - to save sales of 5d mark IV. I believe that this is the main reason, since a much cheaper camera (80D) has more advanced sensor.


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## Mikehit (Sep 1, 2017)

jester73 said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > And I think that raises on interesting question: why was the 6D2 sensor designed like it was? I presume the technicians had a specific objective in mind and wanted to resolve specific issue(s) so it would be interesting to know what that was and whether they had achieved it.
> ...



It is as good a reason as any but not one that I go with. Unfortunately it is because Canon do not explain what they were trying to achieve that it is impossible to fully disprove
As for the comparison with 80D, Dustin Abbott has done a thorough comparison and shows that the 6D2 is in most ways superior or at least equal to it.


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## tomscott (Sep 1, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> jester73 said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...



Its obvious that 90% of people comenting havent used one. It has had the classic canon treatment of its a shi*t camera.

I opened a ISO 125 image form my 5DMKIII the other day and I was amazed at how quickly banding came into it. The 6DMKII may not be a groundbreaking camera in anyway but the sensor quality blows the 5DMKIII out of the water.

Would anyone turn round and say the 5DMKIII is a sh*t camera? Certainly not because its a brilliant camera, the 6DMKII is pretty much a 5DMKIII with all the issues of IQ solved with incredible high ISO capability, with one card slot and a reduced AF system for half the price. Ok its not brand new technology but for bang for buck there is little that compares.

Especially when they are currently less the £1500 thats £500 less than a 5DMKIII after over 350,000 images from my 5DMKIII and being an early adopter of that camera I would have the 6DMKII over one every day.

The 5DMKIV again probably the best all round camera but its just too expensive, yes its good but its not ground breaking and better than the 6DMKII in every aspect but certainly not worth £3500 £2k more than the 6DMKII.

These reviews of the 6DMKII have been super harsh and in the real world it performs so well.

All I wanted was a 5DMKIII without banding, the 6DMKII had increased resolution no banding and amazing low light performance. As a wedding and event photographer I rarely use base ISO and tbh in this day it isnt necessary the fact you get good DR high up and the noise pattern is super random and does really well with noise reduction.

Fantastic camera highly highly underrated and currently a bargain. 

If you are a good photographer this camera will have very little real world issues. The only thing I wish it had was 2 card slots. Again not the end of the world as in the 10 years ive been working as a pro ive never had a card fail.

On a side note all my canon glass feels sharper every image I open I have to look twice as its hard to believe the difference between this and the 5DMKIII. The 100-400mm MKII is sharp but the 6DMKII seems to get the best out of it of any camera ive owned. (all my cameras are AFMA'd) Took it out to photograph deer and even with a 1.4 its so sharp you can pixel peep to 200% and the images still look incredible! For the price... blown away with it.


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## SecureGSM (Sep 1, 2017)

that's true. 5% better sharpness at pixel level resulting in sharper images produced with your older lens(es).



tomscott said:


> .............
> On a side note all my canon glass feels sharper every image I open I have to look twice as its hard to believe the difference between this and the 5DMKIII. The 100-400mm MKII is sharp but the 6DMKII seems to get the best out of it of any camera ive owned. (all my cameras are AFMA'd) Took it out to photograph deer and even with a 1.4 its so sharp you can pixel peep to 200% and the images still look incredible! For the price... blown away with it.


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## unfocused (Sep 1, 2017)

tomscott said:


> ...These reviews of the 6DMKII have been super harsh and in the real world it performs so well...



That's a classic Canon pattern. Canon tends to be conservative on the features and features are an easy thing for reviewers and forum trolls to focus on. But, in the field, Canons tend to turn in very solid performances and generally perform well above what their feature sets might indicate. 

Could be one reason they continue to dominate the market.


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## tron (Sep 1, 2017)

tomscott said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > jester73 said:
> ...


It is my opinion that as a wedding photographer you should get a 2 slot camera although I understand that the possibility of anything happening is close to zero. But almost close to zero is not zero. I remember shooting with my 5D4 in the early days - not important photos but the setting was left to writting to both cards concurrently - when 5D4 froze displaying an error about the SD card. A few months after this event Canon issued firmware 1.0.4 fixing communication with sd card but this is an example of a low probability event that did happen. The card had to be full formated on a PC and then formatted again in camera to work again! As I said I agree that issues are very rare but would you risk your reputation over the price difference of these 2 cameras? 

I understand that it is not possible for 6D2 to be a bad camera and it will handle noise more than decently. But 6D was already better than 5DIII in the noise department so the comparison between the two 6D generations - that are 5 years apart - is inevitable.


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## Sporgon (Sep 1, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > applecider said:
> ...



Maybe they are using the best sensor available - for that camera and the vast majority of those customers that will buy one. We always come back to this one metric of shadow lifting (DR), yet those owners of the 6DII who want to turn their pictures into cartoon-like images will be very much in the minority. With the accuracy of the RGB meter there won't be many who hopelessly under expose and they have to lift the image three stops. So for files that are broadly correctly exposed, and without aggressive manipulation the chip probably is producing the best "IQ" in terms of colour, contrast, tonality etc for the majority of people.


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## Don Haines (Sep 1, 2017)

sigh........

The 6D2 beats the 6D in every metric but one...... That means for most people, the camera is an improvement.

For those who are fixated on DR, go buy a 5D4 or a 1DX. All the complaining in the world is not going to change things, because the camera is released. You can't force Canon to go back in time and make the changes that you want, and even if you could, it would probably affect something else and you would now be complaining about that.

The reality is, that it is an introductory FF camera and will not (overall) be as good as a higher priced model. The sensor design is was it is. It is lacking DR at low ISO, but it handles high ISO better. This does not happen by accident, there are design tradeoffs involved and Canon chose the design that they felt was best... Remember, they have access to real statistics while we have forum fanatics.... and it is undeniable that we forum fanatics do not represent the typical consumer...


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## malarcky (Sep 1, 2017)

tomscott is spot on here. The 6D Mk II is the best high ISO camera I have ever used. I have coupled it with the 1.4x TC and the 100-400 Mk II and had images that just blew me away with how sharp and absolutely great the color, contrast and just plain old image quality is. I can now autofocus with that combo, like I can with my 80D, but not with my 6D. I'm comparing these images directly with bot the 80D and the 6D, and the 6D Mk II is clearly the best one of the lot. I shot my first images with the 6D Mk II just after I purchased it, and I almost thought there was a serious flaw. I thought the camera was misreading ISO's, as some of the images reported 6400 ISO, and I thought they were 400 ISO! I kept trying it, only to realize how clear these high ISO pictures were. 

I was betting before I bought this camera that it would have a very nice noise floor but I was wrong. It has an unbelievably nice noise floor that makes these high ISO pictures remarkably clean to the eye. It is a good thing because I tend to shoot with this combo a lot, and I hardly ever shoot low ISO's when shooting with it. I am extremely happy with my purchase, and I really can't believe some of the negative comments this release is getting. 

One of the reasons is that I really believe there is a mass push to trash this camera by people who just offer opinions based on specs, and that's their reasoning to post all of the negative comments. I'll even go out on a limb here and say that I think there is a huge amount of negative comments by posters with low post counts and some questionable background history. That's as far as I'll go with this theory, but it's really quite remarkable when you read comments after a review of the camera where the same thing is being said over and over again by people who don't own, or have never even attempted to view images produced by this camera. Nikon went from a company in serious financial decline to a company who is selling the best cameras the world has ever seen, and the release of the D850 will render all other camera's obsolete after it's release.

Am I accusing Nikon, or some other company of concocting a full on assault on Canon by the social media crowd? Perhaps I have no choice but to say yes. The comments that start to compare the D750 to the 6D Mk II as being a much better camera are very abundant, and there is a lot of recent Nikon conversations in Canon forums recently claiming that these recent Canon cameras are just "garbage", and "useless". The 6D Mk II is seen by these commentators on youtube reviews to be the worst camera release of all time, bar none.as I know that every camera when it's released has it's fair share of detractors, but this is an effort on steroids to dismiss this camera's ability to hold up in the current market. There is not a single review of this camera that has not ended with a negative view of it and most are ready to cast this release as the last gasp for Canon, as they are ignoring the consumers and failing to make a good camera with the 6D Mk II. See for yourself, it's right there to be seen just by searching for "6D Mk II" in the youtube search engine.


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## Sporgon (Sep 1, 2017)

malarcky said:


> I'm comparing these images directly with bot the 80D and the 6D, and the 6D Mk II is clearly the best one of the lot.



NO ! This cannot be - the internet says the 80D is better !



malarcky said:


> and the release of the D850 will render all other camera's obsolete after it's release.



Phew ! Sanity restored


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## malarcky (Sep 1, 2017)

Sporgon said:


> malarcky said:
> 
> 
> > I'm comparing these images directly with bot the 80D and the 6D, and the 6D Mk II is clearly the best one of the lot.
> ...



I was using hyperbole but I really am stunned by the praise these existing and future Nikon cameras get all of a sudden, while the Canon 6D Mk II is getting trashed at every turn it seems. I really love this camera, as pairing it up with the 80D, I feel like Canon did everything I was asking them to do. I love having the DPAF, along with the all cross type focus points now on this full frame release. The addition of the touch/flip/tilt screen makes the transition imperceptible, so it's just a really comfortable GUI now, and the wireless capabilities will only get better and hopefully make the 6D Mk II able to transfer images in real time to a laptop or phone in order to make having dual card slots less of a concern to those shooting weddings and so forth.


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## deadwrong (Sep 1, 2017)

malarcky said:


> tomscott is spot on here. The 6D Mk II is the best high ISO camera I have ever used. I have coupled it with the 1.4x TC and the 100-400 Mk II and had images that just blew me away with how sharp and absolutely great the color, contrast and just plain old image quality is. I can now autofocus with that combo, like I can with my 80D, but not with my 6D. I'm comparing these images directly with bot the 80D and the 6D, and the 6D Mk II is clearly the best one of the lot. I shot my first images with the 6D Mk II just after I purchased it, and I almost thought there was a serious flaw. I thought the camera was misreading ISO's, as some of the images reported 6400 ISO, and I thought they were 400 ISO! I kept trying it, only to realize how clear these high ISO pictures were.
> 
> I was betting before I bought this camera that it would have a very nice noise floor but I was wrong. It has an unbelievably nice noise floor that makes these high ISO pictures remarkably clean to the eye. It is a good thing because I tend to shoot with this combo a lot, and I hardly ever shoot low ISO's when shooting with it. I am extremely happy with my purchase, and I really can't believe some of the negative comments this release is getting.
> 
> ...




OMG no, dude, I WANT a 5div or a 6d2 BUT not something built for today. Sony/Nikon, and others are presently running over Canon with creativity and innovation. Heck, even cell phones, 4k right? CAnon is not listening or doing a damn thing for thier 'clients' that shoot canon and have succumbed to the L lens crackpipe. CAnon is my first choice, and i am furious over the crap they produced these past few years. 5d4 is a good camera, but it wont last more than a year innovation wise when Sony comes and trounces all over it. Nikon is doing it now. Believe me, i am pro Canon........but they appear to have given up or lack any ability. Sorry for my low post count and I dont brag about the equipment i have (and its no powershot, LOL) at the bottom of this email, nor will i ever. Helllllllllllllo thieves!


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## tomscott (Sep 1, 2017)

tron said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...



Well I'm glad you have an opinion.

I agree. But in my experience it's not been an issue. The reason I bought the 6DMKII is because my 5 was stolen and I didn't want to spend £500 more on a 5 year old camera when I could have the 6D with gps. it's the end of wedding season for me near enough and I'm an avid traveler so bought it for multiple reason. I plan on buying 5DMKIV for next season and running them both. When the price comes down which it usually does about 18-24 months in the 5 was significantly discounted at that period for around £2k for the body and £2.4k for the kit. Sensible money imo. So just needed something to get me through the last third of the year as winter weddings aren't overly popular where I live.

You may also forget that it's only been in recent years we actually had redundancy...

The 5DMKIII was the first of the 5 series that had dual card slots nothing but 1 series before this had them!

The horror what did people do! The 5D3/4 and 7DMKII are the only pro Sumer cameras canon offer with twin slots... the 1 series bodies have had them as long as I can remember but they are and always will be overkil for my usage.

Like I said I'm not going to play these games with canon. The 5DMKVI is a stellar camera but it's not worth 2k more than the 6DMKII for a joystick and an extra card slot.we are already at a point where IQ isn't distinguishable and we are chasing pixels. Life's too short to worry about it, the 5D3 was stellar and I loved that camera to bits and was truly sad when someone stole it. Although it was nakard and had so many war wounds but reminded me of crazy places in the world I had been with it and enjoyed shooting it. Otherwise I don't really need much more to get great images as I showed in my 6DMKII image thread. If you are a good experienced photographer what we have now is more than good enough all the rest is convienience and allows that 1-2% of images you really like but got wrong recoverable. The DSLR is so far along there isn't much more they can do to make them better and it really shows that the cost difference is so large and in real world use they aren't really that far apart. Especially if you print, pixel peeping is a digital age convienience I grew up processing my own images in the darkroom and pixel peeping compared to a print it's almost impossible to tell one camera from the other.

For most people that 2k is a decent 2.8 L lens or even 2.

Regardless how much you earn it always goes into a pot somewhere and I'm getting stellar images that are better than I used to with more resolution and it's got to the point where Im really happy! I'm after good IQ in a body that is nice to use and the iq ceiling has room for me which it does. That's why it was a no brainier for me I am getting better IQ without outplaying an extra 2k which allows me to either spend money on the business in another way like advertising or keep the money for a rainy day. Or when the 5D4 comes down to a sensible price.

As with many things the slots are a marketing tool because your shooting something important it's a must have. I would love to see the statistics to how likely a card failure is. It's a hyped up issue that again in real life happens... well never in my experience and I've shot well over a million images in my Pro career without a card failing. I look after the cards and retire them When I feel they have done enough. The best cards are so cheap there's no need to worry and as it's only UHS1 the cards are even cheaper.


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## tomscott (Sep 1, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> OMG no, dude, I WANT a 5div or a 6d2 BUT not something built for today. Sony/Nikon, and others are presently running over Canon with creativity and innovation. Heck, even cell phones, 4k right? CAnon is not listening or doing a damn thing for thier 'clients' that shoot canon and have succumbed to the L lens crackpipe. CAnon is my first choice, and i am furious over the crap they produced these past few years. 5d4 is a good camera, but it wont last more than a year innovation wise when Sony comes and trounces all over it. Nikon is doing it now. Believe me, i am pro Canon........but they appear to have given up or lack any ability. Sorry for my low post count and I dont brag about the equipment i have (and its no powershot, LOL) at the bottom of this email, nor will i ever. Helllllllllllllo thieves!



LOL! Sounds like you have been bashed in the head with that crackpipe.

Cell phone 4k ;D are you really going to make that argument...

What innovation are we actually talking about here because I need a camera that works and most of all the sony release cameras have a huge flaw that they overheat, super uncomfortable to use, the IQ isn't really miles better in the real world and the fact the colour is not a touch on canon cameras. Nikon cameras are plagued with mechanical issues, neither Nikon or sony can come close to CPS either. 

You have been smoking the marketing crack pretty deep. 

After shooting a wedding for 12 hours I'm tired, the canon cameras are amazingly ergonomic and I'm still sore. I don't have particularly big hands pretty average and I can't grip the sony cameras comfortably in any way shape or form and the lenses are so front heavy that it really puts a strain on your right wrist from offsetting the camera body. I would dread shooting an hour with one let alone 12. If the thing had the best IQ and shoot 120fps at 200mp... but if I'm not comfortable I won't get good images.

Nikon are being brave in the market because they are in serious trouble they don't really have much else to do than go full throttle which means in the short term its great but they have played all their best cards and have put a question mark on a lot of the other cameras in their own line up releasing the 850. Also what will people expect in 3-5 years time a 100mp camera shooting 20fps its not sustainable. You have to be realistic.

The A9 is on paper an incredible camera but again its not getting the incredible feedback the specs suggest and thats the whole point! It doesn't matter what the specs are on paper, if you have to prove you have the bigger crackpipe by buying one then please do us all a favour and swap system.

Im not interested in hype and marketing, I evaluate what I can see and if you can't do that for yourself and make a decent image with your imaginary canon gear then theres a bigger problem than an few extra stops of DR.


----------



## LonelyBoy (Sep 1, 2017)

Sporgon said:


> malarcky said:
> 
> 
> > I'm comparing these images directly with bot the 80D and the 6D, and the 6D Mk II is clearly the best one of the lot.
> ...



And they have charts to prove it!


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 2, 2017)

tomscott said:


> deadwrong said:
> 
> 
> > OMG no, dude, I WANT a 5div or a 6d2 BUT not something built for today. Sony/Nikon, and others are presently running over Canon with creativity and innovation. Heck, even cell phones, 4k right? CAnon is not listening or doing a damn thing for thier 'clients' that shoot canon and have succumbed to the L lens crackpipe. CAnon is my first choice, and i am furious over the crap they produced these past few years. 5d4 is a good camera, but it wont last more than a year innovation wise when Sony comes and trounces all over it. Nikon is doing it now. Believe me, i am pro Canon........but they appear to have given up or lack any ability. Sorry for my low post count and I dont brag about the equipment i have (and its no powershot, LOL) at the bottom of this email, nor will i ever. Helllllllllllllo thieves!
> ...


+1

There is an awful lot to be said for good ergonomics on a body that works with no surprises....


----------



## malarcky (Sep 2, 2017)

LonelyBoy said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > malarcky said:
> ...



That's where everyone gets it wrong. The 6D Mk II has a unique noise floor that is hard to describe. The high ISO pictures taken with it beat the others mentioned hands down, like I said before. You simply cannot point to a chart and ask it to measure the unique character of a camera's noise floor. I am using the term "noise floor" loosely. I don't know if it's the correct term to describe what I'm trying to quantify, or describe, but the camera has the ability to make high ISO pictures look better than the 80D and/or the 6D. The "charts" you refer to are not able to show what I'm describing, and whatever piece of paper you are referring to are useless in the real world when it comes to the human eye and it's ability to interpret the image quality I am trying to describe with words.


----------



## Sporgon (Sep 2, 2017)

malarcky said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > malarcky said:
> ...



Don't worry, successful gear such as 6D, 35 IS, 70-300L, _et al_ got panned by the Internet on release


----------



## Talys (Sep 2, 2017)

malarcky said:


> That's where everyone gets it wrong. The 6D Mk II has a unique noise floor that is hard to describe.



Here: I'll try. Pictures are worth a thousand words, right?

Below are 2 full res versions of the following image:






ISO A: http://talys.icxi.com/isotest/heron-rock-a.jpg
ISO B: http://talys.icxi.com/isotest/heron-rock-b.jpg

One is ISO 500, and the other is ISO 2500. I'm pretty sure you'll be able to tell the difference, but in my opinion, they're startlingly similar. If the JPEG quality were notched down by just 1, you probably _wouldn't_ see the difference.

This one, though should be fun:





ISO A: http://talys.icxi.com/isotest/dragonfly-01.jpg
ISO B: http://talys.icxi.com/isotest/dragonfly-02.jpg

One is ISO 200, and the other is ISO 1600. Can you tell which is which without looking at the EXIF? I can't.


----------



## SecureGSM (Sep 2, 2017)

Hi Talys,

ISO B : ISO 200
ISO A : ISO 1600

I am likely correct, but am viewing images on 75" screen side by side and what I am able to notice is not necessarily evident to some (many) other photogs.

6D II High ISO files are very clean, there is no doubt about it.

btw, I was running with 5D III and 6D original cams for a couple of gigs side by side and was thoroughly disappointed with 5D III high ISO performance past ISO 3200 to the point that I decided to let it go.
I sold the cam today for A$1,850 and will be looking to replace it with 5D IV in coming days.


Talys said:


> This one, though should be fun:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Talys (Sep 2, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> Hi Talys,
> 
> ISO B : ISO 200
> ISO A : ISO 1600



You are correct! 8) 

The 6DII's "noise floor" as malarcky was trying to describe, is just remarkable and hard to quantify on a chart. It doesn't look remarkable without noise reduction, but both Lightroom and DPP's NR are just seemingly able to remove the noise without destroying detail in a really effective way. It's a massive improvement over 80D, for sure.

What's even more remarkable for me, though, is that I shot all of these from about the same spot -- while waiting for herons to take flight (they can stay in one spot for hours), I got an up-close dragonfly, some moth-butterfly thingy, any number of bugs, a kingfisher, and many ducks -- all with the 100-400L II handheld, and it is light enough that I don't kill myself shooting with it for a few hours. 

These were a few other photos I took from there --





Full Res: http://talys.icxi.com/isotest/mothra_fw.jpg





Full Res: http://talys.icxi.com/isotest/BIF-Mallard-01_W.jpg

They were at the same lake as the heron, who rewarded my patience... eventually... by launching off the rock, giving me many interesting shots:





Full Res: http://talys.icxi.com/isotest/From-Rock_FW.jpg

I'm glad that I managed to get some photos in before the 6DII becomes obsolete ;D


----------



## SecureGSM (Sep 2, 2017)

Very nice shots, Talys. well done, my friend. I am also liking your new signature in the bottom right corner. looks good there.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 2, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> OMG no, dude, I WANT a 5div or a 6d2 BUT not something built for today. Sony/Nikon, and others are presently running over Canon with creativity and innovation. Heck, even cell phones, 4k right? CAnon is not listening or doing a damn thing for thier 'clients' that shoot canon and have succumbed to the L lens crackpipe. CAnon is my first choice, and i am furious over the crap they produced these past few years. 5d4 is a good camera, but it wont last more than a year innovation wise when Sony comes and trounces all over it. Nikon is doing it now. Believe me, i am pro Canon........but they appear to have given up or lack any ability. Sorry for my low post count and I dont brag about the equipment i have (and its no powershot, LOL) at the bottom of this email, nor will i ever. Helllllllllllllo thieves!



What do you mean by "BUT not something built for today." Every manufacturer builds for today. Your comment pseudo-intellectual claptrap. 

I see no real innovation with Nikon and Sony that Canon are not doing. The only (and I mean the ONLY) reasons that Sony and Nikon have the kudos they do is because of their superior sensor and they cram everything they can into one body. Canon IS listening to its customers - they just aren't listening to you. If they were not listening they would not remain #1 after so many years - and that is a marketing reality (just not your definition of reality).
Just what ability do Sony and Nikon have that Canon does not? You keep on mentioning this as an opinion but never actually mention any facts. Just because Canon do not put full 4K in the 5DIV does not mean they lack the ability to do so. 
In fact, where is SoNikon dual pixel AF? Or Sony's long wide-aperture primes?
Where is Sony's user-friendly interface? Or after sales service? These are easier to solve than Canon designing a new sensor. 

You keep talking in bland, non-specific marketing-speak but never any actual discussion about facts and capabilities.


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 2, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> You keep talking in bland, non-specific marketing-speak but never any actual discussion about facts and capabilities.



Exactly. Meanwhile Canon bring out three new tilt shift *macro* lenses including a new 135mm, and the fastest aperture stabilized lens they have made in the perfect 'go to' portrait focal length, 85mm! Add in the DRone killer fact that my 1DX MkII has class leading DR and the reports from people who actually upgraded to the 6D MkII, who seem to be universally loving it and the results they are getting just makes these regurgitating forum fodder fools sound even more foolish.

Discussion about actual capabilities sounds great, I wish they would engage in that! These people never mention things like on top of the D850 $3,300 purchase price you need to spend an additional $916 to get the listed performance out of it! Or any of the severe spec limitations when using the A9, like frame rates down to 5 fps if you do what is so often suggested and "use your current glass".


----------



## scyrene (Sep 2, 2017)

tron said:


> It is my opinion that as a wedding photographer you should get a 2 slot camera although I understand that the possibility of anything happening is close to zero. But almost close to zero is not zero.



Can we please not get into this again? It's been discussed ad nauseam on other threads and nobody is going to agree.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 2, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> I am likely correct, but am viewing images on 75" screen side by side and what I am able to notice is not necessarily evident to some (many) other photogs.



How far away from that do you have to sit?!


----------



## SecureGSM (Sep 2, 2017)

I am just couple of meter away from the screen. My HTPC connected to 75" Sony TV. 



scyrene said:


> SecureGSM said:
> 
> 
> > I am likely correct, but am viewing images on 75" screen side by side and what I am able to notice is not necessarily evident to some (many) other photogs.
> ...


----------



## scyrene (Sep 2, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> I am just couple of meter away from the screen. My HTPC connected to 75" Sony TV.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fair enough


----------



## dak723 (Sep 2, 2017)

tomscott said:


> deadwrong said:
> 
> 
> > OMG no, dude, I WANT a 5div or a 6d2 BUT not something built for today. Sony/Nikon, and others are presently running over Canon with creativity and innovation. Heck, even cell phones, 4k right? CAnon is not listening or doing a damn thing for thier 'clients' that shoot canon and have succumbed to the L lens crackpipe. CAnon is my first choice, and i am furious over the crap they produced these past few years. 5d4 is a good camera, but it wont last more than a year innovation wise when Sony comes and trounces all over it. Nikon is doing it now. Believe me, i am pro Canon........but they appear to have given up or lack any ability. Sorry for my low post count and I dont brag about the equipment i have (and its no powershot, LOL) at the bottom of this email, nor will i ever. Helllllllllllllo thieves!
> ...



Tom, you have summed up very well the differences between some of the camera brands, but arguing with a troll is a waste of time. What Trolls like Deadwrong don't realize is that making declarations and proclamations (such as "the 6dm2 and 5div to be obsolete shortly" only make them seem stupid to anyone reading the thread. Certainly any *educated* camera buyer can tell that the strategies of the various brands is quite different - that Canon takes the conservative approach and won't add bells and whistles to cameras if those "innovations" aren't 100% reliable. Canon makes easy to use, reliable, comfortable cameras with and all-around excellent IQ and arguably the best color. They also place a major focus on producing high quality lenses. If that is not what a camera buyer wants - if they want "creativity and innovation" above all else - then Sony or Nikon is likely their best bet. The fact that they don't switch to the brand that best suits their needs only shows that they are either:

a) a troll or constant complainer.
b) dumb.

All forum members who want to show the rest of us just how dumb you are, please continue posting how Sony and Nikon are way better than Canon and how you wish Canon cameras were just like Nikon or Sony's latest offerings - without actually trying or buying those brands.


----------



## Talys (Sep 2, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> Very nice shots, Talys. well done, my friend. I am also liking your new signature in the bottom right corner. looks good there.



Thank you!

By the way, since you were mentioning > ISO 3200 on 5D3, I snapped this guy in my back yard at ISO 5000. You can definitely see a little graininess creep in, but it's far from unpleasant. I couldn't have dreamed of shooting at ISO 5000 before I purchased the 6D2 -- it would be a hot mess on an 80D.






Full Res: http://talys.icxi.com/isotest/bunny_FW.jpg


----------



## Talys (Sep 2, 2017)

dak723 said:


> Tom, you have summed up very well the differences between some of the camera brands, but arguing with a troll is a waste of time. What Trolls like Deadwrong don't realize is that making declarations and proclamations (such as "the 6dm2 and 5div to be obsolete shortly" only make them seem stupid to anyone reading the thread. Certainly any *educated* camera buyer can tell that the strategies of the various brands is quite different - that Canon takes the conservative approach and won't add bells and whistles to cameras if those "innovations" aren't 100% reliable. Canon makes easy to use, reliable, comfortable cameras with and all-around excellent IQ and arguably the best color. They also place a major focus on producing high quality lenses. If that is not what a camera buyer wants - if they want "creativity and innovation" above all else - then Sony or Nikon is likely their best bet. The fact that they don't switch to the brand that best suits their needs only shows that they are either:
> 
> a) a troll or constant complainer.
> b) dumb.
> ...



Meh. I'm convinced that there is a group of people who don't plan to buy any high end camera of any brand. In the world of virtual camera purchases, the one that has the most checkmarks down the list wins, especially if you have no intention of taking pictures with it.

Incidentally, the couple of camera shops that I frequent have said that they've had about the same number of D850 pre-orders as 6DII's, which makes them very happy, considering the D850's price. Also, one said that first run of D850 is now sold out in Canada -- though it's totally possible he was just trying to drum up sales for his own initial allocation. 

If it's true (and I have low confidence that it is), that would be terrible planning by Nikon, since local stores here were getting in as many as 10 6DII's between bodies and kits -- and moving them.


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 2, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> OMG no, dude, I WANT a 5div or a 6d2 BUT not something built for today.



By "not something built for today", do you mean built for tomorrow? What you need is a Delorean, a flux capacitor, and 1.21Gigawatts of power..... Then you can go into the future and bring one back.... Of course we know how that isn't going to happen, so you must mean built for yesterday... I am sure that if you look around you can find a 5D.... or a 20D.... or if you want to escape Canon for some true innovation, a Kodak DC-20....


----------



## Talys (Sep 2, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> deadwrong said:
> 
> 
> > OMG no, dude, I WANT a 5div or a 6d2 BUT not something built for today.
> ...



The first digital camera I owned was a Kodak DC-50  






It had a serial port! and like, 750x500 resolution! and a PCMCIA card slot!! LOL. Amazingly, that was only 20 years ago. I recall it was pretty pricey; we had it on a tripod and used it to make ID badges.


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 2, 2017)

Talys said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > deadwrong said:
> ...


It was 768x512.... we had one at work!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 2, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



No 4K? Useless!


----------



## Talys (Sep 2, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> It was 768x512.... we had one at work!



LOL yeah, there you go  That's more resolution than the VGA screens that some people ran back then!



neuroanatomist said:


> No 4K? Useless!



But there is an optical viewfinder. Who needs pentaprism when you have parallax?


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 2, 2017)

Talys said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > It was 768x512.... we had one at work!
> ...


And here's a hi-res image from where I was working back then.... not even half a megapixel, no 14 stops of DR, amazing that it could take a picture....


----------



## Adelino (Sep 2, 2017)

jester73 said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > And I think that raises on interesting question: why was the 6D2 sensor designed like it was? I presume the technicians had a specific objective in mind and wanted to resolve specific issue(s) so it would be interesting to know what that was and whether they had achieved it.
> ...



Your example kills your premise. They should have designed a better sensor to keep 80D from stealing 6D2 sales. It makes no sense as far as I can tell. Look how Canon shares technology across th Rebel line they don't seem to market segment like they appear to do with the FF lineup.


----------



## Talys (Sep 4, 2017)

Adelino said:


> jester73 said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...



Actually, the example just says that the jester hasn't used a 6D2 and 80D, at least not beyond shooting a price tag in a camera store. I challenge one person who owns or has significantly used both to actually state that the 80D has a "more advanced sensor" -- from the perspective of, you know, images that are output by the camera.

It isn't even close. The 6DII outputs gorgeous photographs, and is superior in a broad number of scenarios -- the obvious exception is that 6DII is full frame; the 80D will get a lot more megapixels out of the center of the lens and arguably better ISO 100 performance if you just want that center crop area. But like, Duh.

Now, I'll happily agree that it's **possible** that 26 megapixels, DR, shutter speed, or 4k may be artificially limited to segment the market and protect 5DIV sales.


----------



## malarcky (Sep 4, 2017)

Talys said:


> Adelino said:
> 
> 
> > jester73 said:
> ...



The constant complaint that the sensor on the 6D Mk II is somehow crippled or less advanced is just a rehearsed complaint that people use to make it look like the 6D Mk II is a bad camera. None of it is true, it's just hype that's designed to give the camera an overall bad rap. I'm not buying into it one bit. I honestly believe that people are just complaining about this camera to try and hurt Canon's reputation. There is just a strange aura about this camera where a lot of people aren't even interested in buying it, or looking into it's merits at all, but going out of their way to make negative comments about it. That's just the way it seems to me.

If you look at the comments that constantly berate this camera, it's always from people who seem to want to sell you on another brand, or want to just present a one liner on how bad it is without any kind of rationale whatsoever. I'm not talking about here, just all over the youtube circuit of commentary. There are certain themes that people seem to use when describing why it's not a good choice. The main thing about jumping to another brand is the most curious, and prevalent one it seems.


----------



## jester73 (Sep 4, 2017)

I am interested in upgrade my camera to FF, and 6d2 specification looks fine. But I think it is overpriced taking into account it real characteristics. For me it should cost at least 1200 USD less then 5d4 and since price for 5d4 is 2750 so 6d2 should cost 1500 USD. I am not using recommended prices since there no official Canon in Ukraine so I have to buy it via internet. Time will show if my assumption is correct. On e-bay already is 6d2 for 1770 USD.

Regarding questions was sensor of 6d2 was crippled or not: for me the only objective evidence is presence of on chip ADC. Until such information will be not available all opinions (including mine) are miserable.


----------



## tomscott (Sep 4, 2017)

jester73 said:


> I am interested in upgrade my camera to FF, and 6d2 specification looks fine. But I think it is overpriced taking into account it real characteristics. For me it should cost at least 1200 USD less then 5d4 and since price for 5d4 is 2750 so 6d2 should cost 1500 USD. I am not using recommended prices since there no official Canon in Ukraine so I have to buy it via internet. Time will show if my assumption is correct. On e-bay already is 6d2 for 1770 USD.
> 
> Regarding questions was sensor of 6d2 was crippled or not: for me the only objective evidence is presence of on chip ADC. Until such information will be not available all opinions (including mine) are miserable.



Completely agree.

I bought mine a week after it was launched for £1500... The price it should have been at launch. If you look hard enough you will find retailers selling at less than this already. At this price it is a relative bargain compared to the 5DMKIV yes its better but not twice the price better.


----------



## Ian_of_glos (Sep 4, 2017)

dak723 said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > deadwrong said:
> ...



This is a really good summary and I find that in practice there is not much difference between the major brands. They all do the job reasonably well and it is often a matter of personal taste that influences our decision. For me my Canon feels slightly more comfortable in my hand than the equivalent Nikon or Sony product, but if for some reason I switched to one of the other brands I don't think it would cause me any major problems.
Sometimes I am frustrated that Canon lags behind in terms of innovation but on the other hand Canon cameras and lenses are built to last and my equipment has always worked perfectly, even in very harsh environments.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 4, 2017)

Ian_of_glos said:


> Sometimes I am frustrated that Canon lags behind in terms of innovation...



I'd be interested to hear how Canon is 'lagging behind in innovation'. Now, if what you mean is, "Canon is lagging behind in the products/features _that I personally want_," it's fine to say so. But the blanket statement that they're 'lagging behind on innovation' is, objectively, simple bullshit.


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 4, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Ian_of_glos said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes I am frustrated that Canon lags behind in terms of innovation...
> ...



I'll give you a good example... flicker detection....

It came out on the 7D2, and has been on every body since.....

Forum users blasted it as a useless feature, yet it took me keeper rate shooting in the anechoic chamber from about 20% to about 90%..... 

Forum wisdom is often wrong because you can not take one persons needs and apply them to the whole world.... for some, they had no need of that feature and dismissed it as useless, yet to others, it was fantastic.

Definitely innovation, a solid feature, but ignored by many because that example of innovation is not to a sensor..... there is a lot more to a camera than a sensor.....


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Sep 4, 2017)

Wow...is this troll bait thread _still_ rolling??? _For real????_


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 4, 2017)

What have the Romans done for us?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tvauOJMHo


----------



## benique (Sep 5, 2017)

Women have a every right to play a part in our movement!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgp9MPLEAqA


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 11, 2017)

Talys said:


> it would be a hot mess on an 80D.



Just make better Raw converter choices, Talys.

7D MK II (by all accounts not as good at high ISO as the 80D):

10,000 ISO.

The noise here is "as is" from the converter, no additional PP NR applied.

_Nothing_ wrong with this...


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 11, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> Agree in that I wish the mods were more active. Of course there is a fine line between censorship and free speech etc, but I feel the pendulum has swung far enough to be detrimental to the forum.



Yep.

I, for one, am a bit tired of responding "in kind" to trolls (and it's _going to_ happen), only then to get a slap on the wrist by the mods, while the troll is allowed to carry on regardless...


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 11, 2017)

LonelyBoy said:


> And I just got a warning for observing the same thing. It's a shame; if CRGuy's preference is to allow new users to come in and be inflammatory, and punish those who call out the antisocial behavior, there's not much point in clicking past the front page to see what might be coming out soon.



Exactly...


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 11, 2017)

Sarpedon said:


> but that gets back to my point about people being responsible for their own behavior.



When we "react" to trolls, we _are_ taking responsibility for our own behaviour - and challenging that of the trolls too, in the absence of a official voice doing the same thing.

It shouldn't be necessary, but it continues to be, nevertheless...


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 11, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> For example, the D5 has been widely acknowledged to take a hit on DR but with benefits elsewhere in the picture-making chain.



I don't believe that at all - it's "special pleading" intended to defend a sensor that isn't another "technical miracle" of the kind that we poor Canon users are apparently denying ourselves by our ignorant fanboyism...


----------



## unfocused (Sep 11, 2017)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > it would be a hot mess on an 80D.
> ...



What is the Raw converter in this example?


----------



## Sporgon (Sep 11, 2017)

unfocused said:


> Keith_Reeder said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...



I asked Keith this same question a year or so ago in a PM but never got a reply. I suspect it's Photo Ninja.


----------



## RGF (Sep 13, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Ian_of_glos said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes I am frustrated that Canon lags behind in terms of innovation...
> ...



The answer, or at least the method to get the answer, is very simple - MSU (Make Stuff Up)

Canon, Nikon, Sony all have their strong areas and not so strong areas. If you only consider the photography on a narrow basis, then any one of these (or perhaps others such as Phase One, Hasselblad, ...) can be leading the pack.

Pick your poison


----------



## Talys (Sep 13, 2017)

Sporgon said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Keith_Reeder said:
> ...



I have tried Photo Ninja with Lightroom, and I really dislike the workflow options. Either you have TIFF files in between that make everything massive, or you lose the ability to go back through history -- which is one of the most appealing things about LightRoom. 

It's fine if you have a relatively small number of photos to run through PhotoNinja. 

I do two broad categories of photography -- indoor, studio shots which are all at base ISO, and outdoor shots, where ISO is at whatever the conditions/equipment constraints require. For the indoor shots at base ISO, DPP or PhotoNinja is just fine. Because my studio shots are of product and I control every aspect of lighting, I only take a couple of each shot, and 99.999% of the time, they're indistinguishable anyways. I have confidence that all of them are going to essentially be perfect, and the second shot is really just a spare in case a semi drove by and shook the ground or something to jigger up focus.

For these types, PhotoNinja is just fine, and for that matter, so is DPP, because the shooting conditions were ideal, there's not really any cataloguing going on, and after post, I retain only 1 shot of each item, usually named the item's part number, and it can all be managed from filesystem.

For the outdoor stuff (almost all wildlife, the occasional sunset or scenery), I can easily take 500++ shots in a couple of hours if I go to somewhere that's a subject-rich environment (like a wildlife sanctuary). LightRoom is a wonderful tool, because it lets me keep them organized, and sort through, organize and cull them in my spare time -- quickly flagging/eliminating photos or picking through ones that are better than others. It's really fast an easy to develop one photo in a scene, and then apply the same to a bunch that I select in the gallery view. Now yes, you can do this in PhotoNinja too (copy/paste manipulations), but it's very awkward and results in massive file sizes if you go through LR (since photoninja has no cataloging).

I would have no problems taking "the shot" and running it through photoninja, but I wouldn't want to do that with _every_ shot that I don't want to delete, nor even every shot that I want to compare.


----------



## Ian_of_glos (Sep 13, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Ian_of_glos said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes I am frustrated that Canon lags behind in terms of innovation...
> ...


No not really. What I was trying to say was that, in general Canon take a rather cautious approach. They prefer to release products that are totally reliable, even if they do not offer all the features that are available in competitor's products. For example when the 5D mark 3 came out there was some comment that it only offered a modest 22 megapixels when the Nikon D800 which was announced around about the same time had 36 megapixels. Canon responded by announcing the 5DS/5DR but I did feel that they were just playing catch up and that this product was not part of their overall strategy. Then my video friends tell me that the 4K implementation in the 5D mark 4 is as good as it could be. I rarely shoot video so it does not really matter to me, but I do feel that Canon simply wanted to announce a camera with 4K capability and did not really consider whether the 4K implementation would be usable. Again, although I understand very little about 4K video, I believe there are other products on the market that have a far better 4K implementation.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 13, 2017)

Ian_of_glos said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Ian_of_glos said:
> ...



So it seems it is not innovation you have an issue with but Canon's willingess to make the Swiss army knife of cameras. 
It seems you don't remembe2 the time that Nikon lagged behind in MP and all the Nikon stalwarts saying 'you don't need more than 10/12/15MP (depending on what MP their cameras had at the time)?
Canon's decision to only use in their DSLRs sensors that they build is probably their limiting factor and if it was not that one, single factor, I am sure there this 'Canon don't innovate' bandwagon would not have built up over the last 2-3 years. Even then, the most common statement I have read is along the lines that 'Canon must build cameras with function X,Y and Z because they are the market leaders.' Really? Is that the sum total of marketing logic that can be mustered?
The fact is Canon have, in their sensors, pretty much closed the gap with the sensors but they have made more strides in non-DR related aspects of a camera - aspects that it seems people think are more important than 4K or DR.
As an example, in introducing DPAF (which many Sony videographers admit is a damned good focussing system for video), they have had to cut pretty much each pixel in half. Think about that for a minute, in the 5D4 a sensor with 30million half-sized pixels and, despite limitations of noise in a small pixel, match the Sony at ISO >200. That sounds like some pretty good sensor technology to me. Yet people still bang on about lack of innovation. Hmm.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2017)

Ian_of_glos said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Ian_of_glos said:
> ...



Thanks for confirming that your 'lack of innovation' contention is bullshit.


----------



## Ian_of_glos (Sep 13, 2017)

Spock said:


> Ian_of_glos said:
> 
> 
> > For example when the 5D mark 3 came out there was some comment that it only offered a modest 22 megapixels when the Nikon D800 which was announced around about the same time had 36 megapixels. Canon responded by announcing the 5DS/5DR but I did feel that they were just playing catch up and that this product was not part of their overall strategy.
> ...


That should read - "the 4K implementation in the 5D mark 4 is not as good as it could be." My videographer friends tell me that the 4k in the Panasonic GH5 and Sony A7S ii is far better.
As I said earlier, it doesn't really matter to me because I don't shoot video very often, and I have never used the 4k video in my 5D mark 4 (maybe I will try it one day). All I was trying to do was to respond to your point about looking for features that I personally want to use. I don't need or want 4K but I think it is generally recognised that the 4K implementation in the 5D mark 4 lags behind the competition.


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## Mikehit (Sep 13, 2017)

Ian_of_glos said:


> That should read - "the 4K implementation in the 5D mark 4 is not as good as it could be." My videographer friends tell me that the 4k in the Panasonic GH5 and Sony A7S ii is far better.
> As I said earlier, it doesn't really matter to me because I don't shoot video very often, and I have never used the 4k video in my 5D mark 4 (maybe I will try it one day). All I was trying to do was to respond to your point about looking for features that I personally want to use. I don't need or want 4K but I think it is generally recognised that the 4K implementation in the 5D mark 4 lags behind the competition.



Canon expressed a very _logical _reason for doing what they did - the majority of people who take video with a camera like the 5D4 will do so for short illustrative sequences and will not do a lot of editing of that video and will likely not have the computing capacity needed to edit 4k. So they chose to keep costs lower by majoring on 1080 and offering a 4k capacity with an older codec. And anyone who has the 5D4 says they like working with the 4k as it is and do not shoot long sequences. 

I am guessing that having an opposite opinion about a function you admit you will never use will not change your opinion one jot, but I ask myself who would I rather believe - a company who does market research when planning its products or a videographer who wants to have a camera that takes great 4k and great stills and expect that, because 'Canon has the technology' doing so would not add anything to the price.


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## Don Haines (Sep 13, 2017)

Ian_of_glos said:


> That should read - "the 4K implementation in the 5D mark 4 is not as good as it could be."



Unless you are recording RAW uncompressed frames (not cropped or resampled to 4K so that you can do post stabilization of footage), it will not be as good as it could be.....

hmmmmm........
That would be about 40MB per frame, and you want at least 60FPS, 120FPS would be better, so that's about 5GB per second... 12 seconds to fill that 64G card.... I wonder why they didn't go that route.....


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2017)

Spock said:


> The D800 was announced on February 7, 2012. The 5DS/5DR was announced on February 6, 2015.
> 
> Do you realize that it takes 4 to 5 years to design and produce a high end DSLR camera? That means that the 5DS/5DR were in the design stage for at least 1 year (and probably more) before the release of the D800, which negates the opinion that they were "playing catch up".



Your scenario presumes that Canon first became aware of Nikon's 36 MP dSLR when it was announced to the general public. Sorry, but that's pretty silly.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 13, 2017)

Spock said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Spock said:
> ...



Or maybe Canon were not responding to the D800 at all but all marques were testing new technologies for high-MP sensors at pretty much the same time. It then comes down to luck as to who hits the chain of solutions for technical problems. I am also fairly sure that if Canon were number 2 or 3 in the market they would have released more experimental models just like SoNikon feel the need to.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2017)

Spock said:


> The D800 was announced 3 years ahead of the 5DS/5DR......
> 
> My scenario is that it takes 4-5 years to produce a high-end DSLR, which means that the 5DS/5DR project would have had to have started 1-2 years ahead of the release of the D800, and that because said camera was such a significant departure from the Canon line up, that it would have involved a great deal of high end discussion before that, meaning that the idea to produce such a camera would have predated the release of the D800 by at least another year, meaning that it was 2-3 years before the release of the D800, and since we are now significantly predated, the concept of the 5DS/5DR being a reaction to something that will not happen for 2-3 years is false.
> 
> That said, it is logical to believe that both Canon and Nikon have a very good understanding of what the other company is working on. Canon probably knew what the D800 design goals were 4 years before it was produced, just as Nikon probably knew the 5D4 design goals 4 years ago..... It is almost a certainty that the design of the 5DS/5DR was influenced by the goals of the D800 project, just as Canon design goals affect Nikon designs. To say that it is a reaction to the design of the D800 is a stretch, as that would imply that Canon has a weak plan for the future.



Canon announced a prototype 50 MP APS-C sensor in 2007, five years before the launch of the D800 and 8 years prior to the 5Ds. Clearly, those high-level discussions of high megapixel sensors had been occurring at Canon for quite some time prior to Nikon's move. 

Regardless, you're absolutely correct that there are no real secrets in industry.


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## Don Haines (Sep 13, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Spock said:
> 
> 
> > The D800 was announced 3 years ahead of the 5DS/5DR......
> ...


And then we have the 200Mpixel APS-H sensor..... A high megapixel camera was inevitable. Personally, I was surprised that the 5DS/5DR was "only" 50 megapixels.....


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## deadwrong (Sep 26, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Spock said:
> ...




Issue with Nikon or Canon or Sony is if they ever do release a 200mp, how will we pull the files? Harddrives would fill instantly. Lightroom would crawl. As much as I want the D850, i worry about this 46 mp and how much in $ with hardware space etc. I dont think many people could handle that mess.


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## Jopa (Sep 26, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Reduce it to 50% before editing and you'll get 50mpx again. Hard drives are cheap now. 2 years ago I was paying $500+ for a 8tb drive, now it's about $250, and 10tb are coming. Put 8 into raid 5, and you have 56tb for $2k + a raid card (another $400).


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## stevelee (Sep 26, 2017)

I ordered the soon to be obsolete camera today. They didn’t have the kit with the STM lens in stock, so I will have it Friday. I did get to hold one in my hands and look through the 24 to 70mm lens the salesman put on it. 

I’m ready to endure the pitying looks from the masses who will know that it lacks an on-sensor ADC.


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## tron (Sep 26, 2017)

stevelee said:


> I ordered the soon to be obsolete camera today. They didn’t have the kit with the STM lens in stock, so I will have it Friday. I did get to hold one in my hands and look through the 24 to 70mm lens the salesman put on it.
> 
> I’m ready to endure the pitying looks from the masses who will know that it lacks an on-sensor ADC.


Enjoy your new obsolete camera. I got my own obsolete 5DMkIV last November and I enjoy it ever since


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## Ian_of_glos (Sep 26, 2017)

stevelee said:


> I ordered the soon to be obsolete camera today. They didn’t have the kit with the STM lens in stock, so I will have it Friday. I did get to hold one in my hands and look through the 24 to 70mm lens the salesman put on it.
> 
> I’m ready to endure the pitying looks from the masses who will know that it lacks an on-sensor ADC.


After postponing my decision for months due to the poor reviews I bought my obsolete 5D mark 4 in April, and I am absolutely delighted with it. It is far better than I was expecting, and the reported weaknesses either don't matter to me or they are nowhere near as bad as I was expecting.
I am sure you will enjoy using your 6D mk2 and you will be pleased with the results.


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 26, 2017)

Shot two models on Sunday with my obsolete 5DS continuing my 1920s theme in my studio. Was disappointed to see sharp shots with good colour saturation, very little noise if any (100iso) and how little difference the mild cropping did to shots in LR / Photoshop CC. 
Then I turned to shots I did on the Saturday with the 6D MKII on location shooting landscapes, same problem. 

Still I can upgrade to Sony / Nikon for thousands of ££ and see no real world difference so I can look "cool". 

Canon shooter for 45 years sorry but I'm not likely to change now.


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## stevelee (Sep 26, 2017)

jeffa4444 said:


> Canon shooter for 45 years sorry but I'm not likely to change now.



I got my FT-QL only 47 years ago myself. The 6D2 will be my third Canon DSLR, after two Rebels. The Xsi was not a bad introduction to the genre. It was an impulse purchase. I had built a house where I would live in retirement and had gone into H.H. Gregg to look at washers, dryers, and TVs, since I would need those things. I wound up buying a camera. It was reasonable for the whole package, including accessories, kit lens, and the 75-300mm lens I used recently for the eclipse photos. I later got the T3i, and it was a big improvement, especially in terms of lower noise at higher ISOs and longer exposures, and I could keep using the same lenses, for better or worse.

When the 80D came out a year or so ago, I thought seriously about that as my next step, but decided that I would go to FF some day, and might as well wait for the 6D2. It turned out a much longer wait than I was expecting, but that gave me the chance to get the G7X II as my travel camera in the meantime.

The salesman I had discussed the 80D with last year, and from whom I bought the 6D2 yesterday, shoots a 6D. He said the 6D2 addressed the two main weaknesses of the 6D. He has not personally seen the STM kit lens, since they don't stock it, so he said if I was OK with it, he was looking forward to seeing the one I'm getting.

I think for me the STM might be a little better choice than the L, and of course it is $400 or so cheaper. Plus if I were to miss the extra stop at 105mm, I can always use my 100mm 2.8 macro, which I expect to get more general use on the FF than it has on the Rebel, and is a great lens even in its non-L incarnation.

I told the salesman I was going to buy a bottle of red nail polish and paint a ring around the lens.


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## dak723 (Sep 27, 2017)

stevelee said:


> I think for me the STM might be a little better choice than the L, and of course it is $400 or so cheaper. Plus if I were to miss the extra stop at 105mm, I can always use my 100mm 2.8 macro, which I expect to get more general use on the FF than it has on the Rebel, and is a great lens even in its non-L incarnation.
> 
> I told the salesman I was going to buy a bottle of red nail polish and paint a ring around the lens.



I had the STM version of the 24-105, as well as the original "L" and found little difference in IQ. The "L" might be a bit better at the widest aperture, but generally I found the IQ to be pretty much the same. The biggest difference is probably in build quality and the constant aperture, of course. I am not a pixel peeper and if you are not than I hope you find the same results. The non-L 100 macro is also a great lens.


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## stevelee (Sep 27, 2017)

dak723 said:


> I had the STM version of the 24-105, as well as the original "L" and found little difference in IQ. The "L" might be a bit better at the widest aperture, but generally I found the IQ to be pretty much the same. The biggest difference is probably in build quality and the constant aperture, of course. I am not a pixel peeper and if you are not than I hope you find the same results. The non-L 100 macro is also a great lens.



Thanks. The reviews I saw agree with you about the IQ. Build quality works both ways. Part of the appeal of the STM for me is that it is a little lighter, and this lens, at least to start with, will be my "walkabout" general purpose lens, so three ounces less hanging from my neck could influence how long I feel like walking about. As for weather sealing, if the weather is bad, I'm not going out taking pictures, and that is not out of concern for the equipment.


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## arthurbikemad (Sep 27, 2017)

Shooting side by side yesterday with a mate and his A9 on some fast motorcross. I was impressed with the size of the A9 and the feature set looks amazing compared to my dated DSLR, however come lunch time I think he felt he had made a poor decision on the A9 after we chimped some shots, seems he now is super impressed with the old Canon and feels the A9 has some way to go in regard to sports shooting, let alone the performance of the 200/2 and 500/4 Mark 2. So I feel a little better having been drawn to Sony for some while, looks like me and the 1DX Mark 2 are happy again  Oh and his two batteries vs my one....well...I had another two spare haha


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## Talys (Sep 27, 2017)

arthurbikemad said:


> Shooting side by side yesterday with a mate and his A9 on some fast motorcross. I was impressed with the size of the A9 and the feature set looks amazing compared to my dated DSLR, however come lunch time I think he felt he had made a poor decision on the A9 after we chimped some shots, seems he now is super impressed with the old Canon and feels the A9 has some way to go in regard to sports shooting, let alone the performance of the 200/2 and 500/4 Mark 2. So I feel a little better having been drawn to Sony for some while, looks like me and the 1DX Mark 2 are happy again  Oh and his two batteries vs my one....well...I had another two spare haha



Just curious, what lens did he have on his A9?


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## SecureGSM (Sep 27, 2017)

nuh, you may consider using Red Silicone O Ring instead 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230918760897










stevelee said:


> I told the salesman I was going to buy a bottle of red nail polish and paint a ring around the lens.


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## Jopa (Sep 27, 2017)

Talys said:


> arthurbikemad said:
> 
> 
> > Shooting side by side yesterday with a mate and his A9 on some fast motorcross. I was impressed with the size of the A9 and the feature set looks amazing compared to my dated DSLR, however come lunch time I think he felt he had made a poor decision on the A9 after we chimped some shots, seems he now is super impressed with the old Canon and feels the A9 has some way to go in regard to sports shooting, let alone the performance of the 200/2 and 500/4 Mark 2. So I feel a little better having been drawn to Sony for some while, looks like me and the 1DX Mark 2 are happy again  Oh and his two batteries vs my one....well...I had another two spare haha
> ...



He had a vintage manual focus f/1 lens  Just kidding.

On the side note - it's hard to call the 1dx2 a _dated_ DSLR.


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## arthurbikemad (Sep 27, 2017)

Talys said:


> arthurbikemad said:
> 
> 
> > Shooting side by side yesterday with a mate and his A9 on some fast motorcross. I was impressed with the size of the A9 and the feature set looks amazing compared to my dated DSLR, however come lunch time I think he felt he had made a poor decision on the A9 after we chimped some shots, seems he now is super impressed with the old Canon and feels the A9 has some way to go in regard to sports shooting, let alone the performance of the 200/2 and 500/4 Mark 2. So I feel a little better having been drawn to Sony for some while, looks like me and the 1DX Mark 2 are happy again  Oh and his two batteries vs my one....well...I had another two spare haha
> ...



G master 100-400. 

p.s, it's a killer combo! Just not a 1DX killer combo, I still want one on the quiet haha

jopa, yeah I know lol, I friken love the 1DX!!!

I see there is an A9 UK on eBay for £3,500 with less than 50 clicks on the clock (122717351767) makes you wonder why it's up for sale, I mean and on OFFER, would you buy a new 1DX2 for a grand less....well....yes I would!


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## john kriegsmann (Oct 6, 2017)

I sold my original 6D because I believed many of the rumors published on CR. I was most interested in rumored improvement in dynamic range, autofocus and two SD slots. I really didn't care too much about the extra megapixels or the flip screen. Needless to say I was disappointed with the new 6D2, it really can't hold a candle to the three year old Nikon D750 which has more DR than the Canon 5Dmk4. I don't believe my perceptions are off base because it appears that Canon 6Dmk 2 sales are lagging. The feature set on this camera is way over priced for a camera with this feature set and purposeful stupid limitations ( 1 sd card?) to maintain product differentiation with the 5d4.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 6, 2017)

john kriegsmann said:


> I don't believe my perceptions are off base because it appears that Canon 6Dmk 2 sales are lagging.



Appears to whom? You? Quite the circular logic, there. Unless you have actual data to support your claim. If so, pelase share. If not, well...you're in good company here, lots of people seem to like pulling numbers from their nether orifices and claiming them as factual, when in reality they are just smelly BS.


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## stevelee (Oct 6, 2017)

john kriegsmann said:


> I sold my original 6D because I believed many of the rumors published on CR. I was most interested in rumored improvement in dynamic range, autofocus and two SD slots. I really didn't care too much about the extra megapixels or the flip screen. Needless to say I was disappointed with the new 6D2, it really can't hold a candle to the three year old Nikon D750 which has more DR than the Canon 5Dmk4. I don't believe my perceptions are off base because it appears that Canon 6Dmk 2 sales are lagging. The feature set on this camera is way over priced for a camera with this feature set and purposeful stupid limitations ( 1 sd card?) to maintain product differentiation with the 5d4.



Sounds like a good time for you to run out and buy a Nikon D750, or the newer model if you have the cash. If one is buying a new camera, and something out there meets the needs and desires, then that's what one should buy. If you have a bunch of Canon lenses, I hear they hold their value rather well, so you can sell them to finance your new gear. Nikon makes great stuff.

I didn't have a wish list similar to yours, so the 6D2 has been a great upgrade from my T3i. I'm still learning to use it, but just having controls that are like what I'm used to has been a good reason for me to stay with Canon. But if they hadn't come out with something that met my needs and interests, I wouldn't have hesitated a moment before buying something that did.


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## deadwrong (Oct 9, 2017)

Ok guys, this thread can end now. ;D

Today i leave Canon rumors ...... I have joined team Nikon. ;D

Sold all my CAnon crap and moved. 

Canon doesnt listen to thier clients and poorly executed products (as of late) ??? :

Take care and enjoy photography. 8)


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## SecureGSM (Oct 9, 2017)

ahh, Happy Days, Happy Days.




deadwrong said:


> Ok guys, this thread can end now. ;D
> 
> Today i leave Canon rumors ...... I have joined team Nikon. ;D
> 
> ...


----------



## Sarpedon (Oct 9, 2017)

I'm not sure how reliable this is, but it does seem like the 6D II is lagging, at least on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/photo/3017941/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_photo_1_2_last

It's #22 on the DSLR list, behind (as far as full-frame cameras go) the D850, D750, 5D Mark IV, and the 5D Mark III.


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## dolina (Oct 9, 2017)

I hope Leica Nikon, Pentax and Sony continue to create better products than Canon.

I say this in the hopes that it forces Canon to create better products in the future. 

Features I would like to be present on the 5DsR Mark 2, 5D Mark 5 and 1D X Mark 3 before 2020.

* CFast and SDXC UHS-II with read/writes better than 167MB/s

* Use a Snapdragon 835 or better SoC because DIGIC appears to be worse in terms of performance per watt

* USB Type-C port with USB Power Delivery for charging and Thunderbolt 3 video output and data transfers

* 3.7-inch Multi-touch IPS Wide color (P3) display but never AMOLED due to burn in

* IP67 Splash, Water, and Dust Resistant

* Larger mAh battery in the same form factor.

* No AA filters

* 4K @ 60fps or better

* 1080p @ 120fps or better

* Video bit rate @ more than 167MB/s


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## unfocused (Oct 9, 2017)

Sarpedon said:


> I'm not sure how reliable this is, but it does seem like the 6D II is lagging, at least on Amazon:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/photo/3017941/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_photo_1_2_last
> 
> It's #22 on the DSLR list, behind (as far as full-frame cameras go) the D850, D750, 5D Mark IV, and the 5D Mark III.



Yes, I've noticed that as well. Interesting since the 6D long dominated the best sellers list as the most popular full frame camera. I think the D850 is no surprise since it is new and satisfying some pent up demand. 

I'm also surprised at how strong the 5D IV sales seem to be, given that it is so much more expensive. 

Perhaps the critical reviews have had an impact on 6D II sales. From a purely selfish standpoint, I hope this leads to a price reduction, as I'd like a second full frame body, but don't really want to pay the current price.


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## Antono Refa (Oct 9, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> Issue with Nikon or Canon or Sony is if they ever do release a 200mp, how will we pull the files? Harddrives would fill instantly. Lightroom would crawl. As much as I want the D850, I worry about this 46 mp and how much in $ with hardware space etc. I don't think many people could handle that mess.



1) Who is "we"?

One of the reasons I didn't upgrade from the 5DmkIII to the mkIV, or buy the 5DS, is I don't need the extra resolution, so not wanting to upgrade my computer to handle it.

Actually, there are plenty of occasions, e.g. my family's event, I would happily shot mRaw, if DxO supported it.

2) More resolution isn't just about computer resources, it's also about lenses.

How many lenses, if any, is actually anywhere near 200MP sharp? How much would a set of 200MP lenses cost?

3) And most importantly, how many photographers actually need 200MP? Niche of niche.

I think the MP race is about to end, same as the MHz race ended about a decade ago, as people will realize that not only can't they pay that much, they don't need to.


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## Aglet (Oct 9, 2017)

john kriegsmann said:


> ..Canon 6Dmk 2..is way over priced for a camera with this feature set and purposeful stupid limitations ..



I agree completely. 
you don't get all that much for that intro price. It would be more appropriate around $1500usd when you compare it to the competition.
So I'm not surprised if sales volume for the thing drop more quickly than for the original 6D.



stevelee said:


> Sounds like a good time for you to run out and buy a Nikon D750, or the newer model if you have the cash. If one is buying a new camera, and something out there meets the needs and desires, then that's what one should buy. If you have a bunch of Canon lenses, I hear they hold their value rather well, so you can sell them to finance your new gear. Nikon makes great stuff.



agreed... Always get what you KNOW is going to do the job for your type of shooting.
Don't buy something and hope it's going to _improve_ somehow.. It's highly unlikely to get better in base IQ metrics.
If you need to push image quality performance in some ways then look for reviews of equipment that confirm that it's capable of the output you're after without having to use work-arounds or "technique" because that's likely implying "compromise."
.. speaking from experience.


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## RGF (Oct 9, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> Ok guys, this thread can end now. ;D
> 
> Today i leave Canon rumors ...... I have joined team Nikon. ;D
> 
> ...



Enjoy your new camera. We expect to see you back in a few months (if not weeks)


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## RGF (Oct 9, 2017)

dolina said:


> I hope Leica Nikon, Pentax and Sony continue to create better products than Canon.
> 
> I say this in the hopes that it forces Canon to create better products in the future.
> 
> ...



Yes competition forces everyone to make better products and as an aside, lower profits. The first is good, the later can have a deleterious impact on the future of the industry as weak / margin players fall discontinue in the market place.


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## ND (Oct 9, 2017)

While I certainly don't think of these cameras as obsolete, and do see them as great cameras- I don't get the inability to see past the system you're holding in your hands.

Many people who think these are great cameras (they are) _period._, are intentionally looking past new advancements others are putting out or don't need these advancements.

People come to the thread to post about using their 5DIV or 6DII in perfectly ideal situations (base ISO, prints are big enough for me, studio lighting) and laud how great they are. I never work ideal situations and have to push my 6D files to where they nearly fall apart so I welcome the newest advancements and tech.

While my next camera will not be a Canon, and I'll hesitantly have to replace my great lenses for Nikon or Sony compatible glass- I don't think my 6D or the new Canons are garbage- they're just way behind the cutting edge. I originally bought my 6D because it outperformed what was available- not because it was a Canon.
I'd love to buy a new Canon if they have something to offer next year, but I'll have to chase the good sensors and deal with any other trade-offs.

Maybe it's some weird loyalty that blinds folks? 
Same reason I don't understand blanket loyalty to a sport team or political party.

The atmosphere here on CR is getting so childish. 
I'm on a lot of the big music/guitar, astronomy, and car forums as I have a lot of other interests- but something about this place is way less civil for some reason. 
See below for the anonymous "no- you're stupid" reply to my post......


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## Jopa (Oct 9, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> Ok guys, this thread can end now. ;D
> 
> Today i leave Canon rumors ...... I have joined team Nikon. ;D
> 
> ...



Happy trolling the team Nikon before you sell your Nikon crap to move to the team Sony, before you sell your Sony crap and move to the team Fuji, and so on... Farewell!


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## Jopa (Oct 9, 2017)

ND said:


> While I certainly don't think of these cameras as obsolete, and do see them as great cameras- I don't get the inability to see past the system you're holding in your hands.
> 
> Many people who think these are great cameras (they are) _period._, are intentionally looking past new advancements others are putting out or don't need these advancements.
> 
> ...



You're not stupid and your post makes sense. But just out of curiosity - how do Canon sensors limit you're creativity?


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## Talys (Oct 10, 2017)

There is no question that capturing more information through the sensor will give you the possibility of squeezing more out of your pictures, which in turn opens the possibility of rescuing some marginal photos, or making soon reasonable photos a little better.

However, there are diminishing returns as you improve the sensor, because the sensor can do nothing to improve lighting or composition, and the best sensor in the world can't tell a story or make a moment. It can't get you to eye-level with your subject. Even if you get more out of the data, you can't create contrast without original highlights and shadows. More data certainly can't make your subject do something memorable.

This is what I mean by diminishing returns: if you have all of the elements to make a great photo -- which includes the lens to bring the image to the sensor -- it really doesn't matter a whole lot which professional full frame sensor you're using to record that image, because they'll all turn out as great photos. Maybe one will be a teenie tiny bit better than the other, but most people will probably just call that taste.

A lot of us hope that the latest whizbang tech gizmo will help us make those great photos, but it's just all great marketing, because in truth, the marginal advantage they give us is miniscule, and practically, zero in comparison to having that awesome image in front of the sensor in the first place.

And no, that doesn't mean I don't want neat tech gizmos or D850 features in a Canon body that I can afford. It just means that after many, many camera body purchases I accept that my next camera body purchase might be something that I really want, but it won't really make my photographs a whole lot better. 

I believe that the only way to make my photographs significantly better is to become a better photographer. It's mostly brand/gear-agnostic, especially once it's good stuff, and mostly requires an investment in spending time being critical of my own photography, comparing it to work I think is better, and thinking of, reading about, and trying different ways to improve.


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## Orangutan (Oct 10, 2017)

Talys said:


> if you have all of the elements to make a great photo -- which includes the lens to bring the image to the sensor -- it really doesn't matter a whole lot which professional full frame sensor you're using to record that image, because they'll all turn out as great photos.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> I believe that the only way to make my photographs significantly better is to become a better photographer



That's mostly my experience, with some exceptions. Bird photography in full sun can be demanding on DR: a pure white heron may be blown out, or the darker background may be noisy mush if the sensor isn't up to it. I probably have dozens of photos of male wood ducks where either the bright white is clipped or the blacks and dark greens are unsalvageable. I currently shoot a 70D, which does not have DR near the top of the Canon range, so this is not a perfect example. I've had similar experiences with some forest scenes with dappled light. If there's no wind I can bracket; if there's wind...no.

I'm saving my pennies; maybe in a year the price of a refurb 5D4 will be in my reach.


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## Keith_Reeder (Oct 10, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> Ok guys, this thread can end now. ;D
> 
> Today i leave Canon rumors ...... I have joined team Nikon. ;D
> 
> ...



You won't be missed. 

I feel bad for the Nikon forums you'll end up infesting though - when you realise that Nikon cameras _aren't_ a replacement for talent and ability, and their own litany of faults...


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## Keith_Reeder (Oct 10, 2017)

dolina said:


> I hope Leica Nikon, Pentax and Sony continue to create better products than Canon.



But _they don't_. That just do some things differently (and not, despite some vociferous opinions, "better")...


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## Keith_Reeder (Oct 10, 2017)

Orangutan said:


> bird photography in full sun can be demanding on DR: a pure white heron may be blown out



Nikon/Sony sensors _are not_ better than Canon sensors at that end of the histogram, though.


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## Orangutan (Oct 10, 2017)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > bird photography in full sun can be demanding on DR: a pure white heron may be blown out
> ...



Not sure I follow: DR is DR...the "ends" are controlled by exposure settings. The fact that Canon, Nikon, other brands meter differently does not matter, so long as the metering is reliable enough that I can set EC.


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## SecureGSM (Oct 10, 2017)

It appears that Keith meant to say that Canon RAW file contains an extra headroom in highlight areas. I would say there is approximately 2/3 of a stop headroom in 5D IV file. Canon RAW handles clipped highlights better than Sony or Nikon. 



Orangutan said:


> Keith_Reeder said:
> 
> 
> > Orangutan said:
> ...


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## ND (Oct 10, 2017)

Jopa said:


> ND said:
> 
> 
> > While I certainly don't think of these cameras as obsolete, and do see them as great cameras- I don't get the inability to see past the system you're holding in your hands.
> ...



They don't fully limit my creativity- but I am hitting walls where I do everything right in the field and end up with sensor issues keeping me from realizing my creative vision at a high level on the back end, in ways that don't come up with a new Nikon or Sony. 
I find myself cleaning up sensor flaws/artifacts in post production- not worrying about composition or focus. This tells me that my sensor is my limit at this point. I see it in vivid magenta noise encroaching on 20% of my image if I try to raise shadows or exposure any little bit. The noise isn't even much of an issue with the high ISOs.
I'm dealing with star light and pre-dawn levels of light mostly, and already working with near flawless prime lenses as fast they come. 
It's the difficult situations that reveals strengths/weaknesses- this isn't apparent in ideal (daylight with flash, e.g.)
I see less creative or advanced folks realize their vision easier/cleaner with no difference other than access to better sensors. At ISO 100 in nice light I have *no* issues or DR worries with my 6D. It is a great camera.
But I also don't have those issues with any camera made in the last 6 years.


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## Jopa (Oct 10, 2017)

ND said:


> Jopa said:
> 
> 
> > ND said:
> ...



What kind of photography is that? Astro? Would it be possible to see some examples? Are you sure it can't be fixed by using a different technique?


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 10, 2017)

ND said:


> I see less creative or advanced folks realize their vision easier/cleaner with no difference other than access to better sensors. At ISO 100 in nice light I have *no* issues or DR worries with my 6D. It is a great camera.



Too right, mate. Folks who are truly creative and advanced need to use Nikon or Sony cameras. Canon cameras are for all those unwashed plebes goin' out to take pichurs. 

:


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## Aglet (Oct 14, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> ND said:
> 
> 
> > I see less creative or advanced folks realize their vision easier/cleaner with no difference other than access to better sensors. At ISO 100 in nice light I have *no* issues or DR worries with my 6D. It is a great camera.
> ...



+1


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## RGF (Oct 14, 2017)

deadwrong said:


> Since Canon has stopped with competing and innovation..... Nikon is about to unleash what we've hoped for with the latest Canon's.
> 
> Nikon D850 Full Specification
> New 46MP FX Format sensor
> ...



and in 2 years the D850 will be obsolete. So what?


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## Deleted member 91053 (Oct 14, 2017)

dolina said:


> I hope Leica Nikon, Pentax and Sony continue to create better products than Canon.
> 
> I say this in the hopes that it forces Canon to create better products in the future.
> 
> ...



Interesting thoughts. However, for me, long lens performance is the order of the day.

So Sony? Simply not happening!

Leica - well let's have a giggle!

Pentax? Archaic at best.

Nikon? Well I have used them and the AF is hopeless.

Canon? Well they are far from perfect - but they work! Which is much more than I can say for any other system that I have tried!

Why would I, or most of the photographers that I know, bother with the alternatives?


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## Jack Douglas (Oct 15, 2017)

Jopa said:


> ND said:
> 
> 
> > Jopa said:
> ...



Right on! Let's see a handful of superb photos to back up the talk. We won't! We seldom do because it's generally typical childish anonymous blah blah blah. 

Jack

Jack


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## Talys (Oct 15, 2017)

Jack Douglas said:


> Right on! Let's see a handful of superb photos to back up the talk. We won't! We seldom do because it's generally typical childish anonymous blah blah blah.
> 
> Jack
> 
> Jack



Don't you get it Jack? If you have the most badass camera, you don't need to take photos anymore, because you _know_ all your photos can turn out perfectly! ;D


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## Don Haines (Oct 15, 2017)

Talys said:


> Jack Douglas said:
> 
> 
> > Right on! Let's see a handful of superb photos to back up the talk. We won't! We seldom do because it's generally typical childish anonymous blah blah blah.
> ...


It’s a lot cheaper to just lower your standards.....


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## Orangutan (Oct 15, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> It’s a lot cheaper to just lower your standards.....



I think you've gone too low, I can barely tell it's a cat.


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## BeenThere (Oct 15, 2017)

Leopard attacking a Rhino at sunrise.


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## Mikehit (Oct 15, 2017)

Orangutan said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > It’s a lot cheaper to just lower your standards.....
> ...



That's the problem - his camera is so high definition the the grid you see is the gaps between the pixels


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## Jopa (Oct 16, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



No aliasing in the grid means even higher resolution or a superb AA filter


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