# Forum Decorum....Deshmorum?



## JohnDizzo15 (Nov 13, 2014)

Just wanted to state a few things (from my POV) that one should bear in mind when participating in forum chatter.

- Know that starting/participating in potentially controversial threads is like playing a game

- Know the rules to the game and how to best play it

- If you don't like those games, don't play them (e.g. starting the threads and then participating in them)

- Don't get mad at what happens during that game, then take your ball and go home simply because you are no longer enjoying that game (e.g. starting threads and then locking them after you've had the last word)

- In the real world, you'd get shunned, punked, and treated like the turd burglar that you are for pulling the "I'm taking my ball home" card on everyone

- Freedom to express your view/opinion/two cents whether it be nonsense or valuable is something which every person is entitled to

- You are entitled to not like what others have to say

- You should try not to apply double standards. Dish it and be okay with having it dished back

- Much of how you SHOULD conduct yourself in life is probably the best way to conduct yourself on forums such as this one (unless you're a d-bag in every facet of life). Still, you are entitled to act as you so choose (within the confines of the admin set rules)

- Don't post or start threads that you know may be inflammatory if you don't want to deal with the resulting flames (very similar to not putting your hand in the fire if you don't like hot)

- If you insist on posting them, deal with the results (which you know full well are inevitably coming). Don't be the guy on the school yard that pushes someone and then gets mad because you subsequently got punched in the face because you weren't really looking to fight

- Stop crying

Yes, I am aware there are some slight redundancies. But they are good for reiteration of things that appear to be unclear to many around these parts. 

The end.


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## privatebydesign (Nov 13, 2014)

_"- Don't get mad at what happens during that game, then take your ball and go home simply because you are no longer enjoying that game (e.g. starting threads and then locking them after you've had the last word)"_

I don't believe that is up to the OP, only the mods have that power.

And on the subject of mods, who let me state quite clearly, i believe do a very good job, I do however wish that if they delete a comment they delete all the comments that either include that censured one, or are a direct reply to it. It gets really weird reading through a thread and see people replying to something that isn't there anymore.


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## meywd (Nov 13, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> _"- Don't get mad at what happens during that game, then take your ball and go home simply because you are no longer enjoying that game (e.g. starting threads and then locking them after you've had the last word)"_
> 
> I don't believe that is up to the OP, only the mods have that power.
> 
> And on the subject of mods, who let me state quite clearly, i believe do a very good job, I do however wish that if they delete a comment they delete all the comments that either include that censured one, or are a direct reply to it. It gets really weird reading through a thread and see people replying to something that isn't there anymore.



+1 or hide them so only people who really want to read them do read them, though not sure its implemented here.


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## JohnDizzo15 (Nov 13, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> _"- Don't get mad at what happens during that game, then take your ball and go home simply because you are no longer enjoying that game (e.g. starting threads and then locking them after you've had the last word)"_
> 
> I don't believe that is up to the OP, only the mods have that power.
> 
> And on the subject of mods, who let me state quite clearly, i believe do a very good job, I do however wish that if they delete a comment they delete all the comments that either include that censured one, or are a direct reply to it. It gets really weird reading through a thread and see people replying to something that isn't there anymore.



I was of the same belief until someone (who I will leave unspecified) stated very recently that they no longer liked what was going on in the thread they started and that they were going to subsequently lock it. I didn't believe this person was an admin/mod so I decided to take a look at some of the threads that I have started myself. And apparently, there is an option to lock topic on the ones you started. For instance, there are two additional buttons on the bottom left of this thread when I view it which are "Remove" and "Lock."

Agreed re the mods on the forum. They absolutely do a very good job. Which is why I believe that if a thread is going to be locked, it should be their exclusive ability to do so.


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## AcutancePhotography (Nov 13, 2014)

Interesting how you entitled your thread about decorum, but it turned out to just be a complaint about another member of this forum. 

No one wins an argument on the Internets Tubes. It does not matter who gets the "last word" ;D

I think it is a good idea for the originators of a thread to be able to lock it. With all the derailments that happen here, it is a good tool to keep the conversation focused on the topic. I wished some of the other forums I haunt had that capability. 

After all, if someone wants to talk about a different topic, they can start up their own thread and not derail someone elses


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## JohnDizzo15 (Nov 13, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> Interesting how you entitled your thread about decorum, but it turned out to just be a complaint about another member of this forum.
> 
> No one wins an argument on the Internets Tubes. It does not matter who gets the "last word" ;D
> 
> ...



The references made were to the most recent exhibition of lame duck-ness that I witnessed. The last straw if you will. 

Agreed, no one wins an argument on the interwebs. 

My wife would have a lot to say to you about whether it matters that one gets the last word. lol.

As far as derailment goes, the same people that have complained about derailment of their threads have derailed plenty of others that were based on other topics i.e. anything that has to do with dynamic range, image quality, a new canon body, etc.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 13, 2014)

JohnDizzo15 said:


> Agreed, no one wins an argument on the interwebs.
> 
> My wife would have a lot to say to you about whether it matters that one gets the last word. lol.
> 
> As far as derailment goes, the same people that have complained about derailment of their threads have derailed plenty of others that were based on other topics i.e. anything that has to do with dynamic range, image quality, a new canon body, etc.


 
I came across this cartoon in a post my son made recently. It seems to apply.


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## AcutancePhotography (Nov 13, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I came across this cartoon in a post my son made recently. It seems to apply.



Reminds me of a very politically incorrect and inapproprate comparision between arguing on the Internets Tubes and the Special Olympics.


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## Larry (Nov 13, 2014)

JohnDizzo15 said:


> AcutancePhotography said:
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> 
> > No one wins an argument on the Internets Tubes. It does not matter who gets the "last word" ;D
> ...



I'll argue with that!

IMO the statement is a "politically correct" cliche which attempts to establish the fact that contention is always pointless, with nothing gained by strenuous, even heated, disagreement or differences of opinion. (Heaven forbid there should be any waves!  )

It may be a given that "the last word" is a phantom, so long as a thread stays open, but objective minds can be changed by strongly stated positions of merit, and meritless ones can be clearly shown to be such, ...so that a bit of "truth" (at least in the minds of some beholders) can be more widely disseminated.


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## JohnDizzo15 (Nov 13, 2014)

Larry said:


> I'll argue with that!
> 
> IMO the statement is a "politically correct" cliche which attempts to establish the fact that contention is always pointless, with nothing gained by strenuous, even heated, disagreement or differences of opinion. (Heaven forbid there should be any waves!  )
> 
> It may be a given that "the last word" is a phantom, so long as a thread stays open, but objective minds can be changed by strongly stated positions of merit, and meritless ones can be clearly shown to be such, ...so that a bit of "truth" (at least in the minds of some beholders) can be more widely disseminated.



LOL. Valid point. I will agree that there can in theory be a winner. However, how often do you witness acceptance and acknowledgement of defeat from the defeated party on the interwebs? That is where the endless defense and offense from each respective position continues to perpetuate a seemingly endless debate. I suppose that should be my revised statement. ;D


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## Larry (Nov 13, 2014)

JohnDizzo15 said:


> LOL. Valid point. I will agree that there can in theory be a winner. However, how often do you witness acceptance and acknowledgement of defeat from the defeated party on the interwebs? That is where the endless defense and offense from each respective position continues to perpetuate a seemingly endless debate. I suppose that should be my revised statement. ;D



How often? 100% of the time in the single case, at least, of the exchange between the two of us. I made a point which was gracefully acknowledged by yourself. 

I concede of course, that there are personalities more inclined to be argumentative than others, and when two such find themselves at loggerheads, the party may last longer than many of us wish to stay.

Fortunately, the exit door is always open, and we are free to spend our time elsewhere, ...but those who hang-in-there for the spectacle may still notice a previously undiscovered gem or two flung along with the other substance.

I prefer that point/counterpoint be calmly engaged in (and accepted) as "discussion", rather than cringingly avoided as "argument".

I am pleased to have exchanged (peacefully) these few thoughts with you.

Thanks! 8)


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## Jane (Nov 13, 2014)

I'd suggest adding another rule to your list: 

Remember there are women reading/contributing to Canon Rumors

We are few in number, I believe. I have been reading CR for a couple of years but was put off contributing until recently by what I viewed as some rough posts in the past.


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## JohnDizzo15 (Nov 13, 2014)

dilbert said:


> JohnDizzo15 said:
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No reference was being made to the Constitution.


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## JohnDizzo15 (Nov 14, 2014)

dilbert said:


> JohnDizzo15 said:
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There are a multitude of things I don't agree with or condone. I agree that it should not be a place for personal attacks or insults. 

That being said, I also believe that we all have the god given ability to ignore things hence the reason I have chosen to never be the kid that took his ball home. So in the same way you have asked that people simply ignore your posts when they don't want to read them, you can also choose to ignore their responses. No harm, no foul. 

I agree, this forum and others like it are a place to discuss Canon rumors and other photography related topics. That being said, I also believe that the point has been made abundantly clear regarding the feelings of forum members who are discontent with Canon's offerings relative to other companies i.e. Sony, Nikon, Sony, Sony, and Sony. 

In my personal life, when carrying on through the world, I believe I have developed the ability to recognize that certain behaviors or actions may lead to a very probable reaction. Therefore, I try to act in such a way so as to avoid reactions I don't want, and promote the possibility of the ones that I desire. The nexus between that statement and what you and other forum members have done is that I believe most of you have also developed an understanding for what types of reactions you're going to get to certain things based on the things you have already experienced previously. Hence the reason why the said posts are believed to be provocative by many on this forum.

And human nature most of the time leads us to respond to provocation in a negative fashion. Not saying that those are necessarily my feelings about your posts or threads. Just saying that they have gotten to the point where I would understand how many would view them as provocative.


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## distant.star (Nov 14, 2014)

.
What possesses someone to hand down a slate of commandments for how other people should behave?

Strikes me as the epitome of arrogance.


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## distant.star (Nov 14, 2014)

dilbert said:


> distant.star said:
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That's nice.


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## JohnDizzo15 (Nov 14, 2014)

distant.star said:


> .
> What possesses someone to hand down a slate of commandments for how other people should behave?
> 
> Strikes me as the epitome of arrogance.



Not sure what would possess someone to do such a thing either. I agree that it would strike many as the epitome of arrogance. So I ask, are you referring to my opening post?

If so, you have misinterpreted what I have said to be commandments as those were merely things that I personally felt people "should" bear in mind when participating in such conversations. Also mixed in there were my feelings about certain types of behavior and how I perceive them. Commandments would have required different language be present in order to meet the definition. 

I was in no way issuing a slate of commandments, rules, or an edict of any kind. Just providing my point of view and some suggestions.

Thou shalt not.....


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## tolusina (Nov 14, 2014)

distant.star said:


> .
> What possesses someone to hand down a slate of commandments for how other people should behave?
> 
> Strikes me as the epitome of arrogance.


That's a Q and A with all manner of deep, philosophical, political and religious implications, discussion of which is inappropriate to a photo gear head forum.
Were it not inappropriate, I'd also ponder what makes people accept such commandments.

(.... pulling on hip waders, running away..............)


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## Larry (Nov 14, 2014)

distant.star said:


> .
> What possesses someone to hand down a slate of commandments for how other people should behave?
> 
> Strikes me as the epitome of arrogance.



Long standing tradition. 

See: Religions/kings/emperors/etc, ...anyone with power/authority over others.

(But I agree that OP was "suggestion", not commandment)


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## Canon1 (Nov 14, 2014)

*CR Forum Etiquette *

It really seems like there is a lot of hostility here among forum members. I really can't believe some of the stuff people say to each other here. Good debate is productive, but some of this stuff is... 

Before this, I've never seen a group of people who all share the same passion as one another be so brutal to one another. 

There are even many posters here with thousands of posts who used to be wonderful sources of information who now resort to the same childish behavior. 

I challenge everyone to grow up a little, and recognize that there are tons of people here, beginners and pros alike, who all share this common passion of photography. Think of the discussions we could have if we left the bull s#%t behind. 

I hope the admins don't sensor this post. My intent here is not to slam CR or further inflame members, but to encourage people to try to be civil and productive. This is a great community and resource. 

Happy shooting,


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## lintoni (Nov 15, 2014)

This thread should be locked.


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## AprilForever (Nov 15, 2014)

dilbert said:


> distant.star said:
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Indeed, Dilbert!


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## RustyTheGeek (Nov 15, 2014)

I think this is an interesting thread. Let's be honest... we humans love to see a good fight. Esp a hair pulling, nail scratching girl fight. But any fight will do. We like to see gladiators in all their glory. We like to see NASCAR races with big firey crashes. We love action movies with lots of mayhem and action.

Face it, we're just wired that way.

So when things get heated in forums, regardless of the topic, we just can't resist the urge to get a punch in. It requires a certain level of maturity and discipline to resist that urge. I've always found it to be a fascinating thing that Internet Forums provide detachment and anonymity which allows us to view arguments from a distance, take our time, maintain calm and decorum and avoid the impulsive emotion laden responses that in-person confrontations can provoke... and then many folks still act irrationally anyway.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 15, 2014)

RustyTheGeek said:


> I think this is an interesting thread. Let's be honest... we humans love to see a good fight. Esp a hair pulling, nail scratching girl fight. But any fight will do. We like to see gladiators in all their glory. We like to see NASCAR races with big firey crashes. We love action movies with lots of mayhem and action.
> 
> Face it, we're just wired that way.
> 
> So when things get heated in forums, regardless of the topic, we just can't resist the urge to get a punch in. It requires a certain level of maturity and discipline to resist that urge. I've always found it to be a fascinating thing that Internet Forums provide detachment and anonymity which allows us to view arguments from a distance, take our time, maintain calm and decorum and avoid the impulsive emotion laden responses that in-person confrontations can provoke... and then many folks still act irrationally anyway.


 
I'd agree on that. All the photography forums have to deal with it, most of them are a lot tougher than CR. 

Its fine to state your opinion about a subject, but name calling to belittling a person because of their beliefs turns into a free for all pretty fast.


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## RustyTheGeek (Nov 15, 2014)

Yeah, thick skin and an abundance of patience makes life much easier to live. Not to mention a smoother ride.


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## AcutancePhotography (Nov 16, 2014)

RustyTheGeek said:


> I think this is an interesting thread. Let's be honest... we humans love to see a good fight. Esp a hair pulling, nail scratching girl fight. But any fight will do. We like to see gladiators in all their glory. We like to see NASCAR races with big firey crashes. We love action movies with lots of mayhem and action.
> 
> Face it, we're just wired that way.
> 
> So when things get heated in forums, regardless of the topic, we just can't resist the urge to get a punch in. It requires a certain level of maturity and discipline to resist that urge. I've always found it to be a fascinating thing that Internet Forums provide detachment and anonymity which allows us to view arguments from a distance, take our time, maintain calm and decorum and avoid the impulsive emotion laden responses that in-person confrontations can provoke... and then many folks still act irrationally anyway.



As long as you are only speaking for yourself. ;D I personally disagree with pretty much everything you wrote in your post. The bickering and attacking detract from the enjoyment I get from internet forums.


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## RustyTheGeek (Nov 16, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> RustyTheGeek said:
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> 
> > I think this is an interesting thread. Let's be honest... we humans love to see a good fight. Esp a hair pulling, nail scratching girl fight. But any fight will do. We like to see gladiators in all their glory. We like to see NASCAR races with big firey crashes. We love action movies with lots of mayhem and action.
> ...



I'm not asking for you to agree. Keep in mind that I didn't say I admired or endorsed it, I'm just making an observation. Internet forums are simple a reflection of the real world we live in but with more anonymity. Everyone still has a choice to make with their behavior and hopefully not simply yield to the temptation to do what others are doing or misbehave just because it makes them feel better.


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## phoenix7 (Nov 16, 2014)

*Re: CR Forum Etiquette *



Canon1 said:


> Before this, I've never seen a group of people who all share the same passion as one another be so brutal to one another.



That is either nieve or you haven't been around the internet long. 
Does anyone remember USENET News? Wow... the original spawning grounds of the Troll species.
The only places that seem to even hold a candle to that classic interwebs time are various 'chans
and Reddit (sort of). And of course the raid chat channels of verious MMOs after some noob
face pulls a boss before everyone is ready. Ahhh those were the days! LOL
Drama... <sigh> as nasty as this gets, and even from my perspective it gets pretty bad, this is all
relatively short lived and much easier to ignore. I sometimes miss a bit of drama, of course reading
a DR thread pretty much fills up that small reservour for a few months. At least here the constructive
posts usually outnumber the nasty ones over all.


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## tayassu (Nov 16, 2014)

Of course, there are some minor wars and surely some who I might even call trolls, but this is normal for a forum.
I think, if you behave like an educated human being, there are no problems on CR. I have never been bullied here because of a perfectly neutral post. 
The few times the responses to my posts were a little more harsh than I had expected, they were all based on a controversial statement I had just made. However, I shared my opinion; someone who brings a counter argument with less than respect for my view of things is nobody I shall be affected by. I love a good discussion, but you get personal and I'm outta here (at least I try so...).


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## RustyTheGeek (Nov 16, 2014)

Let me take another approach with some observations. A list...

- If a topic is put out for others to comment on, there will be a variety of comments. Some helpful, some worthless, some nice and some not so nice.

- As the comments progress, branches will form that grow. Some will stay on topic and others will stray. Some will even begin to comment on the other comments and individuals or what some perceive to be poor etiquette.

- As the thread evolves, some folks will attempt to defend, attack or otherwise assume a particular role in the discussion. Some threads are more heated, some are more benign.

In general, the thread will be as constructive as the folks posting allow it to be. The word 'drama' above is a good description of what so many people crave. Some folks like to 'stir the pot' and then sit back and watch the brew boil as a result of their inputs. As has been said, "All the world's a stage..." and so when something piques our interest, we stop and watch. The news media are masters of getting our attention with dramatic and charged news stories.

So in our little corner of the world here at CR, I think we enjoy a pretty polite and knowledgeable bunch. I've never had over 1000 posts in a forum, ever. (And I go back to the BBS days on 2400 Baud modems!) I learn a lot here and I like to think that I can avoid the temptation to contribute to the 'trolling' and bickering that sometimes happens.

I think my biggest sin here is getting cheeky and poking ribs once in a while. I have no problem admitting that I'm a smart ass but if I poke someone to get a response I expect I'll need to brace myself for whatever that response is. I respect everyone here a great deal and I hope I never cross a line that brings that respect into question. If I do, I hope someone tells me. I've received a PM or two from other members that discuss behavior offline and I think that's where those discussions belong sometimes. Because if someone is truly interested in 'cooling the pot', a private discussion is often much more effective.

Perhaps CR should create another thread topic called "The Padded Room" or "Fight Club". That's where more charged topics could be discussed like "Should the Breaking Bad dolls be sold at Toys R Us?". Also, when a photography thread starts to degrade into chaos, the mods could send some folks "to the room" and let them continue the drama in there so that the original thread can refocus on the original topic.

OK, I know the fight club topic area is a pipe dream but I had to end with something so I could get the Breaking Bad dolls thing into the post! Bait! Bait! Bwaaaa Haaa Haa!!!


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## distant.star (Nov 16, 2014)

RustyTheGeek said:


> I've never had over 1000 posts in a forum, ever. (And I go back to the BBS days on 2400 Baud modems!) I learn a lot here and I like to think that I can avoid the temptation to contribute to the 'trolling' and bickering that sometimes happens.



I'll go off on a tangent and enter the oneupsmanship world: I go back to 300 Baud acoustic coupler modems. Things sure have changed!


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## RustyTheGeek (Nov 16, 2014)

distant.star said:


> RustyTheGeek said:
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Yeah, you've got me beat on that one. I just wasn't interested in going online until later. Our family really couldn't afford a computer so I used computers everywhere else. Friends, school, etc. No one really got online much then so I didn't start until a bit later. My best friend's dad always liked to upgrade his PC often so the first time I got online was on a 286 AT with a Hercules Graphics card on an amber monitor. It was smokin'! So even though I had been using computers since 1980, I didn't really get online until about 1984.

But hey! To put that in perspective, my buddy also owned a Canon AE-1 Program that he was very proud of. I used it too. Most of us in my little gang didn't usually buy stuff the other guy owned because it would be redundant. We just shared a lot of stuff. So I just got a 35mm point&shoot Minolta instead. It worked pretty good too. I used it for many years.


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## RustyTheGeek (Nov 16, 2014)

It occurs to me to mention one more thing about the Decorum topic...

Read my signature line below. I put that there quite a while ago. It started out as me being a little silly and poking some fun at *surapon*. (I even received one PM from a concerned CR member asking if I meant him any disrespect.) It's not secret how fond everyone is of *Mr. Surapon*!

But it soon occurred to me that it could represent something a bit more profound. Anyone here that has read a post from *surapon* instantly knows how smart, kind and compassionate *Mr. Surapon* is with his posts. He is infinitely humble, respectful and selfless. In short, he is the epitome of how we all should aspire to behave.

So when I submit a post, I often consider my signature line and I ask myself, "Yes, but what would *surapon* say?". Get it?


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## AcutancePhotography (Nov 16, 2014)

RustyTheGeek said:


> So when I submit a post, I often consider my signature line and I ask myself, "Yes, but what would *surapon* say?". Get it?



Or more important, how would Surapon word a post. 

I don't always agree with Surapon's opinions, but I do respect and appreciate his manners on this forum.


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## RustyTheGeek (Nov 16, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> RustyTheGeek said:
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> > So when I submit a post, I often consider my signature line and I ask myself, "Yes, but what would *surapon* say?". Get it?
> ...



You never know, for all we know the kind and humble *Mr. Surapon* could be a major crime syndicate kingpin boss but we'll never know because he's so unassuming and nice. It's amazing what a few good manners will do for someone!


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## lintoni (Nov 16, 2014)

RustyTheGeek said:


> You never know, for all we know the kind and humble *Mr. Surapon* could be a major crime syndicate kingpin boss but we'll never know because he's so unassuming and nice. It's amazing what a few good manners will do for someone!


We'll know if he is, and you've blown his cover - your camera bag will be sent to Canon Rumors, containing a halibut.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 16, 2014)

RustyTheGeek said:


> AcutancePhotography said:
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Yes, se sets a example that is almost too good to be true. It may be a cultural thing. There is a person at our local Costco named Kittipong who is exactly the same way. Always uber polite, friendly, and smiling. I prefer to go thru his checkout line when possible, its a nice feeling to leave the checkout feeling good and smiling. Most of the checkers are friendly, but he goes way beyond.


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