# Thinking of downgrading / advice



## procentje20 (Nov 14, 2017)

So, my photography business is back to being a hobby. And I find myself mostly photographing birds and my children. So I'm thinking of taking some money out of the gear pile, moving from a 5D3 to a 7D2. And selling some of my other gear.

Is there anyone that has used both and can tell me what I'll miss and what i'll gain. I think GPS is a nice feature when birding. As I can record where I was hiking. Also the added speed might be nice.

For portraits/family I think I'll move from the 85 1.8 to the 50 1.4. Will be the 5th time I buy a 50 1.4 if I do. But it will give me about the same feel while using it.

On paper, the 7D2 has a much lower ISO. but I have no idea how the usable ISOs compare. I never use max ISO on the 5D as I feel its just not worth it. It doesn't give me the cripness I expect from a DSLR.


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## Ian_of_glos (Nov 14, 2017)

Personally I think that would be a backward step, but it really depends what type of photography you do and how much money you have invested in full frame EF lenses.
Recently I spent the afternoon at a rugby match with a friend of mine. He was using a 7D mk2 with a 70-200 F2.8L and I was using a 5D mk3 with a 100-400 F4.5-5.6L ii. At half time we swapped lenses. 
Clearly the 7D mk2 is a much better camera for sports. It shoots at 10fps compared to the maximum of 6fps that my 5D mk3 can manage. Also the focusing system seemed to be faster and I ended up with more pictures that were out of focus or not focussed on the action, although this could have been due to my inferior technique.
However, frame by frame the pictures from the 5D mk3 were clearer with better colours and contrast. The differences became more apparent as the light began to fade towards the end of the match.
Now this was not a very scientific experiment and there could have been many other factors that were coming into play. However, I do feel that you lose something when you are using a lens that was designed for a full frame camera on a crop sensor body.
Also - will you really save that much by switching from a 5D mk3 to a 7D mk2? In the UK a new 7D mk2 costs around £1,350. I don't know how much you would be able to sell your 5D mk 3 for, but I would be surprised if you would get much more than the £1,350 that the 7D mark 2 is going to cost.


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## Mikehit (Nov 14, 2017)

Art Morris (birdsasart.com) showed a comparison between the 7D2 and the 5D3 and the 7D2 has no more noise than the 5D3. One his colleagues Daniel Cadieux uses 7D2 and produces stunning bird shots but I note he rarely goes above ISO 1600. 
So it all depends on what you want to do. I would say the 7D2 for birds in flight or fast action (AF and frame rate). I would say the 7D3 if your balance is more late afternoon/early morning (best time for a lot of wildlife), portraits of the kids, or for what I call environmental/bhavioural wildlife where there is not a lot of fast action. Even with action it depends on how obsessive you are about getting the right head/wing angle. 

Overall I agree with Ian - you will sell the 5D3 and spend it all on a 7D2. 
I would say stay with the 5D3 until you work out exactly what it is you need.


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## whothafunk (Nov 14, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> 7D2 has no more noise than the 5D3.


Im sorry, what? That's complete and utter bullcrap. Are you seriously implying crop sensor = full frame sensor in terms of noise? 

Anyway, I had a 550D, 70D, 7D2, 5D3 and for the last 18 months I'm an owner of a 1DX. Sure, the 7D2 has about half a stop less noise compared to 550D and 70D, but compared to 5D3 and especially the 1DX, 7D2 is more than 1 full stop noisier. Meaning, and doing real world indoor sports tests, shooting 6400 ISO on 1DX is about the same as 2000-2500 on 7D2. It is less apparent at ISO 400-800, sure. But anything above, it cannot be compared to a full frame.


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## Mikehit (Nov 14, 2017)

whothafunk said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > 7D2 has no more noise than the 5D3.
> ...



I am not implying anything. I simply stated what I had read on the website of one of the world's premier bird photographers. If you want to tell him he is talking 'utter bullcrap' then be my guest.

https://www.*********.com/test-4/
[********* = C*n*nwatch)

http://www.birdsasart-blog.com/2014/10/19/eos-7d-mark-iieos-5d-mark-iii-comparison-they-thought-that-it-would-be-easy/





> Meaning, and doing real world indoor sports tests, shooting 6400 ISO on 1DX is about the same as 2000-2500 on 7D2. *It is less apparent at ISO 400-800, sure. *But anything above, it cannot be compared to a full frame.



So you agree in part then. Which begs the question why you were so abusive.


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## NancyP (Nov 14, 2017)

What size birds? Blind/hide shooting or mobile shooting? What size LENS? Do you already have a Big White? Use teleconverters? 
Crop sensor camera is a great fit for a Mini-White such as the 400 f/5.6L no-IS or 100-400Ls - plenty of pixels on the bird. But the reach isn't very far, and using a teleconverter either limits you to central focusing spot (7D2, 1.4x III) or to manual focus (7D2, 2x III).
Try using what you have and note the pros and cons re birding.
I suspect that Art Morris is also a very good post-processor and can squeeze the most out of any pixel.


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## unfocused (Nov 14, 2017)

My own experience owning the 7DII and 5DIII. (I now have the 1DXII and kept the the 7DII, but sold the 5DIII).

For action (sports, birds in flight, etc.) 7DII over the 5DIII.

At normal ISOs (400 and below) results are indistinguishable. 

At higher ISOs, the 5DIII yields better results than the 7DII, but not as much as you might expect. The 5DIII was a significant improvement over the original 7D (which I also owned), but when I bought the 7DII I was surprised that the high ISO quality of the 7DII (up to ISO 6400) was not all that much different than the 5DIII. 

The key with the 7DII is to expose to the right and avoid having to push shadows heavily. I also consider the "quality" of the noise in the 7DII to be much nicer than the original 7D -- the difference between an electronic look vs. a more traditional film look. I find the "grain" of the 7DII not as objectionable. 

In short, I would say that if you do most of your shooting at ISO 400 or below, you will never see a difference between the 5DIII and the 7DII. If you do most of your shooting at ISO 3200 or above, you will notice a difference, but you may not find it that significant (I would say less than a full stop).

If you need or want the higher frame rate and better autofocus, then the 7DII is the clear winner. If you find yourself shooting in situations where you are distance limited, you will find the 1.6 crop factor helpful. If you own a bunch of EF glass and shoot wide angle, you will need to invest in some good EF-S lenses, which may offset any savings. 

That's my personal experience.


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## Don Haines (Nov 14, 2017)

whothafunk said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > 7D2 has no more noise than the 5D3.
> ...



Got a 7D2..... Got a 5D2.... The high ISO noise on the 7D2 is comparable to slightly better than the 5D2.....

The 5D3 is significantly better for high ISO noise than the 5D2.....

Therefore, I would expect that the high ISO noise on the 5D3 is better than the 7D2.... For low ISO, yeah, probably about the same, but then again, everybody is more or less the same at low ISO....


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## docsmith (Nov 14, 2017)

Given the current price points, you might be spending money to "downgrade" which usually doesn't make much sense. 

I would suggest that you need to have a driving reason to make the move.

As for crispness, have you checked your microadjustment on the lenses? The 5DIII is plenty crisp (I own one, and started with a 7D).

That said, if you are truly moving to be a hobbyist, I'd probably look at the 80D over the 7DII. It has newer sensor tech and a lower price point. The 7DII is built better and has higher fps. So you should really want one of those if you choose to buy it.


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## AJ (Nov 14, 2017)

I suggest putting an ad in your local craigslist of equivalent saying something like this:
Looking to upgrade from 7D2 to 5D3? I'm looking to downgrade. Willing to trade my 5D3 for your 7D2 plus xxxx dollars.
See if you get any takers.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 14, 2017)

DO NOT buy a used 7D MK II. There are just too many around that users have AF issues with, and there will be no warranty. Get a new one from a dealer with a 30 day return policy.

This will cost close to the current used value of a 5D MK III, so don't expect to save a lot of money. 

A new 7D MK II on sale is ~$1350, the used value of a 5S MK III on Fred Miranda is about $1500 and its a much better camera, I'd never even consider the downgrade.

There are good sites for comparing high ISO images from the two cameras, a crop body is at a big disadvantage. Beware of the sites that down res images from the 7D MK II in order to make them look better, if you want a low resolution camera, get one, compare original raw images where possible and recognize that images that are reduced in resolution appear to have less noise.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM

https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Camera-Noise.aspx?Camera=963&Test=0&ISO=6400&CameraComp=479&TestComp=0&ISOComp=6400


You can save a few dollars going from a used 85mm to a used 50mm, not much.

So you might save $200 with the total move, and if you have to pay auction fees and paypal fees, it will cost you more.

Wait until a 90D comes out and get that, or spend $500 on a SL2. Then you will save some money, and the SL2 has the newer sensor which is better.


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## Rockskipper (Nov 14, 2017)

Ditto on the SL2. I returned my refurbished 7DM2 to Canon and got a new SL2 and am very happy, especially for the price differential (1/3 as much). Much easier to use. The focusing system on the 7DM2 is very complicated and I found I didn't use its features enough to warrant owning it. 

I use my 70-200L lens on it with a 2x teleconverter and love it for birding and wildlife shots. It's small and light and easy to keep handy, plus I don't worry about it like I would an expensive camera. Keep the 5DM3 and just get an SL2 also, then you have the crop factor and an easy to carry and use camera as well as your full-frame for when you want it - you may decide to get into night photography or something. This will cost you $500 and you'll have a better all-around setup than just going with one. I also have an M5 but I use the SL2 more.


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## Maximilian (Nov 14, 2017)

procentje20 said:


> ... moving from a 5D3 to a 7D2. And selling some of my other gear. ...


Hi procentje! 

Two Questions:
[list type=decimal]
[*]What kind of advantage do you expect from "downgrading" from the 5D3 to the 7D2?
[*]Why would you want to sell anything that you use quite often?
[/list]

Background:
My personal experience is that keeping things that fit your needs is always cheeper than selling and recomposing gear - used or new, no matter - for the same or similar purpose.

Having the 5D3 and reading a lot about the 7D2 my expectation will be that you won't get a more compact kit, that you won't see much difference in IQ, that you'll miss the portrait qualities of FF for your kids but gain some reach for birding.
My presonal preferences would lie on good pics from my children over more reach for birding. But that me.

(My) Conclusion:
Keep the body, keep the lenses you use quite often, sell what you use least of all and be happy


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## AlanF (Nov 14, 2017)

I have used both the 5dIII and 7DII extensively for bird photography, but have now sold both to upgrade to a 5DIV and 5DSR. The 7DII and 5DIII can both be excellent and have their relative pros and cons. But, I would not trade a 5DIII I know well for a used 7DII because you don't know, as Mt Spokane has clearly stated, what can be wrong with it.


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## unfocused (Nov 14, 2017)

Maximilian said:


> ...My personal experience is that keeping things that fit your needs is always cheaper than selling and recomposing gear - used or new, no matter - for the same or similar purpose...



This is a very good point. Given that the 5DIII has been replaced by the 5DIV, its value on the used market has dropped. Swapping out lenses will increase your costs. Prices are good on the 7DII now, but you will still be buying a camera that is likely to be replaced within the next year. Unless you are really interested in birds in flight and sports photography, I don't really see any benefit at this point.


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## tron (Nov 15, 2017)

It is my opinion that the way you think it, you will downgrade without saving money. Unless you are focal length limited better stay as you are. 5D3 is a nice camera. Just make sure you expose to the right. 

EDIT: I saw you have a zoom lens up to 600mm. This will behave much better with the full frame 5D3. I do not believe it can be fully utilized with an APS-C camera. You will lose IQ. So in my opinion you are not focal length limited.


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