# Canon 5D III and Zeiss lenses: focusing screen?



## niels123 (Jan 27, 2015)

Since a couple of days I own the Carl Zeiss Apo Sonnar 135mm f/2 ;D

Wonderful lens, but focusing at f/2.0 is extremely difficult, even when using the green focus confirmation dot in the bottom of the viewfinder. Focusing using live view is cumbersome and quite slow.

1) Is it more accurate / easier to focus using a focusing screen?
2) Which type of focusing screen would you recommend?
3) What is the best place to order this? Officially, it is not supported by Canon to change the screen for the 5D III (only for the 5D II), but there is screens available including installation instructions, for instance here: Focusing Screen with installation instructions here: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Focusing Screen Installation Instruction

Experciences, suggestions, help, ideas and thougths are greatly appreciated! ;D

Niels


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## Mitch.Conner (Jan 27, 2015)

niels123 said:


> Since a couple of days I own the Carl Zeiss Apo Sonnar 135mm f/2 ;D
> 
> Wonderful lens, but focusing at f/2.0 is extremely difficult, even when using the green focus confirmation dot in the bottom of the viewfinder. Focusing using live view is cumbersome and quite slow.
> 
> ...



From what I've seen you can install the eg-S super precision matte screen for the 5DII on the 5DIII. You have to remove two screws and do a bit of tinkering, but supposedly it works. I haven't tried it myself though. I'm fairly sure it voids your warranty (in case that matters to you). I am under the impression that it works well with manual focus lenses.


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## Eldar (Jan 27, 2015)

I used the Eg-S on the 5DIII. It is not a mechanical fit. It worked well for a while, but not over time. I ordered a custom S-screen from focusingscreens.com (3x the Canon price). It is not as good as a Ec-S on the 1DX, but a lot better than the standard screen.


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## mackguyver (Jan 27, 2015)

Eldar said:


> I used the Eg-S on the 5DIII. It is not a mechanical fit. It worked well for a while, but not over time. I ordered a custom S-screen from focusingscreens.com (3x the Canon price). It is not as good as a Ec-S on the 1DX, but a lot better than the standard screen.


Was that your ultimate solution? I still can't believe how bad the Ec-S is in the 1D X for lenses slower than f/2. I didn't really find it that much better for the f/1.2 & 1.4 lenses, either, but I'm sure it helps with the Zeiss glass. My Ec-S has been sitting on my shelf since my failed experiment - I guess I need to sell it.


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## Eldar (Jan 28, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> Eldar said:
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> 
> > I used the Eg-S on the 5DIII. It is not a mechanical fit. It worked well for a while, but not over time. I ordered a custom S-screen from focusingscreens.com (3x the Canon price). It is not as good as a Ec-S on the 1DX, but a lot better than the standard screen.
> ...


The Ec-S works very well up f2.8 in my view and my ability to focus the faster lenses is a lot better with that screen. At f4 it becomes rather useless though.


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## niels123 (Jan 28, 2015)

Eldar said:


> mackguyver said:
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All my lenses, except the 24-105 f/4L, are f/2.8 or faster. If you sometimes use this 24-105 and only with autofocus in situations where it's not exceptionally dark, but also not too light (e.g. 1/60s; f/4; 1600 iso), is this usable or would you then not replace the focusing screen of my 5D III? It is my only fullframe SLR and I use it for paid assignments (e.g. weddings), so it needs to do the job when I need it (also in dim situations, although I usually rely on my sigma 50 art f/1.4 with autofocus then).


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## Eldar (Jan 28, 2015)

niels123 said:


> Eldar said:
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At f4 the viewer becomes rather dark. AF is still working OK, but you will not line it. Be asare though that changing screens, even on the 5DIII is a rather simple job, once you've done it. So I think you should try it. The cost is marginal.


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## niels123 (Jan 28, 2015)

Eldar said:


> niels123 said:
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I heard that changing the focus screen on the 5D III affects the light metering. In the 5D II is a custom functions setting to let the camera know that you have the custom screen and then the camera will compensate for that. Obviously, this is not possible in the 5D III. How big is the difference (in stops)?


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## Eldar (Jan 28, 2015)

niels123 said:


> Eldar said:
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I don´t remember with the Eg-S screen, but with the focusingscreens.com version (I believe they are pretty much the same), I have an average of about 2/3 of a stop. With the 5DIII that means that you cannot use manual mode with auto ISO, since you do not have the required exposure compensation mode available..


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## niels123 (Jan 28, 2015)

How reliable is focusingscreen.com and how long are delivery times?

Just wondering: would magic lantern solve the exposure compensation issue to allow the use of M and auto iso?
Maybe silly, but if you're shooting in situations were the light is constantly changing and you want to keep using M and auto ISO, the other option is to just ignore the needed exposure correction and later fix that in postprocessing? Fixing a single stop in RAW is not too much, especially if the iso is not 10k.

Other option: if you choose Tv, put shutter speed fixed (e.g. 1/60) and iso to auto in dim-lid situations, what aperture would the 5D III choose? Does it shoot wide open then or is it just increasing ISO too much to shoot at f/4 with f/2 glas? Because in Tv with auto ISO, I think it should be possible to compensate?


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## Eldar (Jan 28, 2015)

niels123 said:


> How reliable is focusingscreen.com and how long are delivery times?
> 
> Just wondering: would magic lantern solve the exposure compensation issue to allow the use of M and auto iso?
> Maybe silly, but if you're shooting in situations were the light is constantly changing and you want to keep using M and auto ISO, the other option is to just ignore the needed exposure correction and later fix that in postprocessing? Fixing a single stop in RAW is not too much, especially if the iso is not 10k.
> ...


The screen from focusingscreens.com is made on order and was delivered at my door about 3 weeks after I ordered it. The box looks like a standard Canon box. All papers etc. in proper order.

The Tv alternative you describe should work. I have no experience with ML, so I do not know if they have a solution for the manual mode.


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## niels123 (Jan 28, 2015)

Eldar said:


> niels123 said:
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> > How reliable is focusingscreen.com and how long are delivery times?
> ...



Sorry for al these questions, but I am still quite confused about all the stuff. There are four types available for the 5D III:

Ec-A
Ec-B
Ec-L
S TYPE

I am looking into which type I shall order from focusingscreen.com

On youtube I found a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PGAjCCk9W8
It looks like it really works like charm, but the comment is "You will lose the focus dots tough". Does that really mean that you loose all the 61 AF points in the autofocus system when you have attached a canon autofocus lens?

I also have difficulty finding which of these four types work best in practice and how they actually compare to each other. Do all of these screens affect the light metering and darken the viewfinder (on f/4 lenses)? Also, the S TYPE is out of stock at the moment....

Niels


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## Eldar (Jan 28, 2015)

For precision focusing, you want the S-screen. Autofocus will work like before, but the viewer will be darker for slower lenses. The absolute max in my view is f4, whereas 2.8 works well.


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## niels123 (Jan 28, 2015)

Eldar said:


> For precision focusing, you want the S-screen. Autofocus will work like before, but the viewer will be darker for slower lenses. The absolute max in my view is f4, whereas 2.8 works well.



That sounds pretty good ;D
I have only one lens that is f/4 (none which are even slower) and even this 24-105 f/4L is hardly used. Most of the time it is collecting dust because I like my primes (even the 85 f/1.8) so much better


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## tphillips63 (Jan 28, 2015)

I bought one for my 5D Mk III from focusingscreen.com and he sends you a complete kit, finger cots, screen in canon box, printed instructions, he is very good.

I just was not happy with the results overall and went back to the standard screen.


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## racebit (Jan 28, 2015)

Manual focusing should have input from PDAF or DPAF, with the camera telling the user which way is focus.
But Canon (and others I guess, not sure), deliberately chooses not to do that.
As most my lenses are manual or telescopes, that is my big frustration with Canon DSLRs.
Maybe if people complained more, and verbalizing that is inappropriate behavior to any company who verbalizes so many garbage about their altruistic goals, as all do.


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## niels123 (Jan 28, 2015)

tphillips63 said:


> I bought one for my 5D Mk III from focusingscreen.com and he sends you a complete kit, finger cots, screen in canon box, printed instructions, he is very good.
> 
> I just was not happy with the results overall and went back to the standard screen.



Do you have any MF-only lenses, and if yes, how do you focus then?

I spoke a guy from Canon support and he suggested that people sometimes use a loop (e.g. the Hoodloupe with or without hoodcrane) and live view to focus.


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## noisejammer (Jan 28, 2015)

I'll post a dissenting opinion.

I've purchased just about every screen available for the 5D2. I have tried precision matte screens, split focus, the original, microprism and a few others. The prices varied from $15 to $200.

_The short version is that none allowed my to achieve critical focus with my Zeiss ZE lenses._ 

I then tried a Zacuto Z-finder Pro loupe and mounted it to the lcd on a clip-on frame (pn Z-FRM or Z-FRM32 depending on your camera.) I can nail critical focus almost every time. Yes, it's a little unwieldy but the camera is pressed against your eye and it's stable. The second issue is that this goes through batteries, so you need a few in your pocket. It does however work.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 28, 2015)

noisejammer said:


> I'll post a dissenting opinion.
> 
> I've purchased just about every screen available for the 5D2. I have tried precision matte screens, split focus, the original, microprism and a few others. The prices varied from $15 to $200.
> 
> ...


 
If you replace a focus screen, and you need very accurate AF you must use shims to adjust the position of the focus screen. Canon sells the shims you will need for your camera. There is a procedure in the service manual, or you can use trial and error. Some of the focus screen manufacturers include a shim, but it is no guarantee of accurate manual focusing with your camera, each camera can have a different variation.

Focus screen manufacturers usually purchase 1 series or even focus screens from MF cameras, and mill them to the dimensions to fit. This results in inaccurate exposures, so you need to add exposure compensation in many cases.


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## tphillips63 (Jan 28, 2015)

noisejammer said:


> I'll post a dissenting opinion.
> 
> I've purchased just about every screen available for the 5D2. I have tried precision matte screens, split focus, the original, microprism and a few others. The prices varied from $15 to $200.
> 
> ...


Yes, the 24mm TS-E, which was the main reason. In the end I felt the focusing in auto was off a little and the metering as well. I did end up getting the Hoodman 3.2 for live view focusing and also it is great for easier viewing of images. For me this was a lot better than the screen.


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## zlatko (Jan 28, 2015)

I don't care for the S screen with 2.8 lenses. No ... I absolutely can't stand it. It's way too dark for me. I bought an S screen years ago and every now and then I try it again, but I always go back to the standard screen because it's much brighter. But then I'm using AF lenses exclusively. With manual focus lenses, I guess I would have to use an S screen. I could tolerate an S screen with 1.2 or 1.4 lenses, but then the camera body would have to be reserved for use with those lenses exclusively.


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## Eldar (Jan 29, 2015)

zlatko said:


> I don't care for the S screen with 2.8 lenses. No ... I absolutely can't stand it. It's way too dark for me. I bought an S screen years ago and every now and then I try it again, but I always go back to the standard screen because it's much brighter. But then I'm using AF lenses exclusively. With manual focus lenses, I guess I would have to use an S screen. I could tolerate an S screen with 1.2 or 1.4 lenses, but then the camera body would have to be reserved for use with those lenses exclusively.


The only reason to get the S-screen is to use with fast manual focus lenses. The standard screen with focus confirm indication works OK from f2.8.


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## niels123 (Jan 29, 2015)

Is there anyone who has experience with focusing with these Zeiss lenses using focus peaking from Magic Lantern? How well does it work in live view mode without magnifying the screen?


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## feanolas (Jan 29, 2015)

Eldar said:


> zlatko said:
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> 
> > I don't care for the S screen with 2.8 lenses. No ... I absolutely can't stand it. It's way too dark for me. I bought an S screen years ago and every now and then I try it again, but I always go back to the standard screen because it's much brighter. But then I'm using AF lenses exclusively. With manual focus lenses, I guess I would have to use an S screen. I could tolerate an S screen with 1.2 or 1.4 lenses, but then the camera body would have to be reserved for use with those lenses exclusively.
> ...



I hate the standard screen! S-screen is much nicer, it gives me a better feeling of what the image will look like wide open. How can you see what the picture will be like with your 1.4 lenses when the depth of filed and rendering you see in the viewfinder is 2.8 ? I am not speaking of focus, but really of DOP.

I have no problem using it with f/4 lenses, it's slightly darker than the standard, but not by that much.


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## niels123 (Jan 29, 2015)

feanolas said:


> Eldar said:
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So effectively the S-type gets your screen a little darker and it gives you de DOF at f/1.4? Is there any other 'tool' in the screen to help in confirming accurate focus? For instance, in the split prism there is the two half circles that make a full circle when you have focused correctly. How does this work in the S-type screen?

I assume that focusing on something in the dead-center works the same as focusing on smething that is on a corner (or 1/3rd) of the image. Is this correct?


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## Eldar (Jan 29, 2015)

niels123 said:


> feanolas said:
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The additional focus confirmation is provided by the camera. An easy way for you to check it out is to go to a dealer and see how a 6D behaves with the Eg-S screen. Aside from the camera generated focus confirmations, you should see what the 5DIII would be with the customized focusingscreens.com screen.


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## niels123 (Jan 29, 2015)

Eldar said:


> niels123 said:
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Checking a 6D with Eg-S is a good idea, if I can find a dealer that has them on stock here 

I sent a couple of e-mails to focusingscreen.com, asking them when they have the S-type screen again for de 5D III, but I haven't received any reply in three days. This makes me a bit reluctant to order, because I have no idea how long it will take or if they will send anything at all...


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## zlatko (Jan 29, 2015)

feanolas said:


> Eldar said:
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I generally don't shoot wide open, so I don't need to see what the picture will look like wide open. But when I do shoot wide open, it's easy to imagine what the picture will look like even though the standard screen effectively shows the DOF at 2.8. Moreover, the LCD can show the picture and its actual DOF immediately after it's made. So no big deal.

I found the S screen to be bad with f/2.8 lenses and a nightmare with f/4 lenses. Just way too dark. It is tolerable if shooting in bright daylight, but I'm often not shooting in bright daylight.

I agree that the only reason to get the S-screen is to use with fast manual focus lenses. Then it really does offer a benefit. Other than that specific usage, I would not recommend it to anyone.


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## niels123 (Jan 29, 2015)

noisejammer said:


> I'll post a dissenting opinion.
> 
> I've purchased just about every screen available for the 5D2. I have tried precision matte screens, split focus, the original, microprism and a few others. The prices varied from $15 to $200.
> 
> ...



Batteries I really don't care  You just refill them with juice and use them over and over again 

I just did a small test: 5D III + Zeiss 135 f/2 on tripod and some text for focussing. I focused using live view and the HoodLoupe, this one:






Focus is not completely nailed and only a tiny bit off.

- Is this hoodloupe different from the HoodMan custom finder kit 3.2?
- Does the Zacuto Z-Finder pro work better?
- It comes in different magnifications, which one do you have and what do you recommend?

Please let me know your thoughts


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## noisejammer (Jan 29, 2015)

I tried the Hoodman before trying a Zacuto. I found the Zacuto to be far, far better.

Zacuto makes three Z-Finder models, the Junior, Pro 2.5x and Pro 3x. I haven't tried the Junior so I can't speak to that. Between the Pro versions, my choice was based on dioptre adjustment. If memory serves, the 2.5x version offered lower magnification but was suited to near-sighted shooters. I'm not near sighted so I chose the 3x version.

The Gorilla plate that comes packaged with some Z-Finders is a waste of space. If you can save some cash by not buying it, I recommend you do.


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## niels123 (Jan 29, 2015)

noisejammer said:


> I tried the Hoodman before trying a Zacuto. I found the Zacuto to be far, far better.
> 
> Zacuto makes three Z-Finder models, the Junior, Pro 2.5x and Pro 3x. I haven't tried the Junior so I can't speak to that. Between the Pro versions, my choice was based on dioptre adjustment. If memory serves, the 2.5x version offered lower magnification but was suited to near-sighted shooters. I'm not near sighted so I chose the 3x version.
> 
> The Gorilla plate that comes packaged with some Z-Finders is a waste of space. If you can save some cash by not buying it, I recommend you do.



Thanx ;D
Just some small questions:
-How easy is it to see the composition (e.g. the entire screen) with the loupe attached? Can you see the entire screen only by 'hovering' with your eye over the loupe or can you still see your entire screen at once?
-What is the purpose of this gorilla plate?
-The 2.5x and 3x are different magnifications I assume? I see in some youtube videos that there are some kind of spacers that come with the package to increase the distance between loupe and screen and thus the magnification. These spacers are not related to the 2.5x and 3x versions?

Niels


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## noisejammer (Jan 29, 2015)

niels123 said:


> Thanx ;D
> Just some small questions:
> -How easy is it to see the composition (e.g. the entire screen) with the loupe attached? Can you see the entire screen only by 'hovering' with your eye over the loupe or can you still see your entire screen at once?


I can see the entire screen without having to move my eyeball. Of course, you have to use magnified live view if you really want to nail focus. I frame the image, pick my focus area, focus, zoom out then trip the shutter.


> -What is the purpose of this gorilla plate?


I think it interfaces with the other video-related things Zacuto makes. It may allow some of the parts to glom onto the camera. As I said, it's useless for stills - use the Z-FRM or Z-FRM32.


> -The 2.5x and 3x are different magnifications I assume?


Yes (I assume) - I've not used the 2.5x so I can only go by what's on the Zacuto site.


> I see in some youtube videos that there are some kind of spacers that come with the package to increase the distance between loupe and screen and thus the magnification. These spacers are not related to the 2.5x and 3x versions?


No - the spacers allow for greater dioptre correction. I have never used mine.

NJ


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## niels123 (Jan 29, 2015)

noisejammer said:


> niels123 said:
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Do you consider the loupe to be good enough to focus on the eyes for a close-up (from top head to including shoulders) portrait at f/2 or do you get better results when you do zoom in (the camera button) on liveview?


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## noisejammer (Jan 30, 2015)

niels123 said:


> Do you consider the loupe to be good enough to focus on the eyes for a close-up (from top head to including shoulders) portrait at f/2 or do you get better results when you do zoom in (the camera button) on liveview?


Head and shoulders at what focal length? I'll guess 85mm / 1 m.

The worlds great optimist-sage, DofMaster, says at f/2 is 85 mm lens, 1 m -> 2cm ... that's assuming the CoC is 30 microns (which is quite crappy.) You would do better to try for CoC around 15 microns which means the DoF is 1 cm.

To achieve this, you and your subject have to stand still so that neither of you sways by more than 5 mm. I wish you luck - you will need it.

It's not for nothing that pro's shoot portraits at f/4. If you want more bokeh, separate the subject from the background or use a green screen.


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## niels123 (Jan 30, 2015)

noisejammer said:


> niels123 said:
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> > Do you consider the loupe to be good enough to focus on the eyes for a close-up (from top head to including shoulders) portrait at f/2 or do you get better results when you do zoom in (the camera button) on liveview?
> ...



I just like to have only the eyes in focus in the face, so subject-background-seperation will not help here. From Zeiss I only own the 135 f/2, and I wish to get it tag sharp at least 90% of the time at f/2 without zooming the live view on the camera.


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## noisejammer (Jan 30, 2015)

niels123 said:


> I just like to have only the eyes in focus in the face, so subject-background-seperation will not help here. From Zeiss I only own the 135 f/2, and I wish to get it tag sharp at least 90% of the time at f/2 without zooming the live view on the camera.


You can easily calculate the distance to the subject by using 
D = F * H / h where F = focal length (in your case 135mm), H = subject height or width ( I'll guess 450 mm width) and h = sensor height or width (if you're in portrait orientation it would be 24 mm width. From this, I get your subject distance is going to be about 2500 mm.

Now go to www.dofmaster.com and do your own calculations. I got that the total DoF will be 3.9 cm split nearly equally between front and back. That assumes the circle of confusion is 0.03 mm. If you want the image to be a fair reflection of your lens' capabilities, you can set the CoC at 0.015 mm and you'll find the total depth of field is 1,9 cm. That's 1 cm in front and 1 cm behind. If you're human, you will sway by several mm (as will your model - even if he / she is trying to stand absolutely still.

The result is that even if your focus is perfect, you might only get 50% of your images sharp but you should get about 25% sharp. This is why it's far smarter to stop down the lens a little and make sure you nail every image.

It's easy to test this - focus on something that's difficult to see then shoot off several images. You can even use this to estimate how much you sway which should inform how fast an aperture you should be using.


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## niels123 (Jan 31, 2015)

noisejammer said:


> niels123 said:
> 
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> > I just like to have only the eyes in focus in the face, so subject-background-seperation will not help here. From Zeiss I only own the 135 f/2, and I wish to get it tag sharp at least 90% of the time at f/2 without zooming the live view on the camera.
> ...



Thanks a lot, that makes a lot of sense  I hope to get a Zacuto soon and then start shooting with it ;D


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