# Canon Says Q1 Profit Hit by Weak Printer, Camera Sales



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

```
<p><a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/canon-results-idUSL3N17T2B7?type=companyNews" target="_blank">From Reuters</a></p>
<ul>
<li>Q1 operating profit falls 39 pct, more than expected</li>
<li>Office equipment, compact digital camera sales slump</li>
<li>Firm trying to diversify away from consumer cameras (Adds segment breakdown, context)</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>TOKYO, April 26</strong> Japan’s Canon Inc on Tuesday reported a steeper-than-expected fall in first-quarter operating profit on weaker demand for office equipment in emerging markets and slower global sales of compact digital cameras.</p>
<p>The world’s biggest maker of printers and cameras also cut its outlook for the full year ending December.</p>
<p>For January-March, operating profit dropped 39 percent to 40.1 billion yen ($361.4 million), the company said. That missed the 67.74 billion yen average of five analyst estimates, according to Thomson Reuters data.</p>
<p>Canon said it now expects full-year operating profit of 300 billion yen, lower than a previous forecast of 360 billion yen.</p>
<p><!--more--></p>
<p>Quarterly operating profit from office equipment, its biggest segment, fell 38 percent from a year earlier while profit from imaging <span id="itxthook0p" class="itxtrst itxtrstspan itxtnowrap"><span id="itxthook0w" class="itxtrst itxtrstspan itxtnowrap itxtnewhookspan">systems</span></span> such as cameras fell 33 percent.</p>
<p>To reduce its reliance on cameras, Canon agreed to buy Toshiba Corp’s medical equipment unit for 665.5 billion yen last month. The deal followed the purchase last May of 85 percent of Swedish video surveillance firm Axis AB.</p>
<p>The company, which earns about 80 percent of revenue overseas, said the yen’s appreciation in the first quarter had a negative impact on earnings.</p>
<p>For the rest of the year, it said it expects the U.S. dollar to trade at an average of 110 yen compared with a previous assumption of 120 yen.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## mkabi (Apr 26, 2016)

Do they include DSLRs in the compact camera market?

Anyway, that explains the 80D with printer sale.


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## Luxter (Apr 26, 2016)

The 20% price increase in Canada probably won't help boosting the sales....


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## timglowik (Apr 26, 2016)

no real new invention / progress in years also doesn't help .. and at the same time competition doesn't sleep... not surprised ...


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## RustyTheGeek (Apr 26, 2016)

What doesn't help is the terrible state of the Japanese economy and the value of the Yen. Japan's monetary policy is killing them. (Not unlike most of the rest of the world governments but Japan has a substantial head start.)


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## slclick (Apr 26, 2016)

Enjoy your cameras! They'll be the last according to the doomsday preachers coming forth in the next 20 pages of this thread.


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## nightscape123 (Apr 26, 2016)

Crippling their cameras, releasing 3-4 year old tech and not updating their best sellers... not a big surprise that their profit is falling... Maybe this will help canon wake up and realize they can't just float on past success forever.


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## bdunbar79 (Apr 26, 2016)

nightscape123 said:


> Crippling their cameras, releasing 3-4 year old tech and not updating their best sellers... not a big surprise that their profit is falling... Maybe this will help canon wake up and realize they can't just float on past success forever.



Their competition actually did a bit worse.


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## unfocused (Apr 26, 2016)

Quarterly PROFIT of $361 million. Canon is *******.


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## jeffa4444 (Apr 26, 2016)

Canon clearly have the ability to innovate being one of the top companies globally filing patents. Stills cameras are a mature market and replacement cameras need to be solid advances to entice the majority. Canon has demonstrated that it can provide cutting edge technical innovations but equally its been a company that drip feeds its technical innovation rightly or wrongly this has succeeded in the past but that may not be a guide for the future. 
Sony have made great strides with their sensor business and are now trying to up their game in lenses with the G Master series however the A7 series of cameras are not without their own faults especially power management. 

The 5D MKIV has to be as forward thinking as the 5D MKII was at its time and Canon also needs to make sure the 6D addresses common compliants namely the AF system if they do these then the success of both lines is assured because fundamentally they get more right than wrong by a country mile. Some will say DR is not an issue and certainly many astounding photographs are produced daily on its cameras but improving DR to at least 14 stops should be one of the goals it has to acheive to entice the purchase of advanced DSLRs.


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## gwflauto (Apr 26, 2016)

Canon has taken serious steps towards diversification. This development of the compact camera markets really doesn't come as a surprise. It is good to hear that Canon is doing ok in the DSLR area. With several developments close to market introduction they are going to get back on the growth path. And they are well prepared for the growing demand, once the world economy starts to recover. 
I was surprised about the weakness of the printer business. May be that is also seriously affected be the weakness of the major world markets. 
I'm wondering about Nikon. It will be interesting to compare their recent business with Canon. A Nikonian told me, in his favorite Nikon Forum they discuss, that Nikon is always late, doesn't listen to their customers, develops the wrong products, the company is *******. He thinks, quite a number of these trolls post in Nikon and in Canon Forum as well.


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## xeos (Apr 26, 2016)

The next quarter will be more interesting. I spoke with a couple of camera store owner in Toronto and they told me they haven't sold a single unit since Canon price hike. MAP is already big headache and problem for these shops, now adding this price hike to it is like asking them to shut down the business. Have you guy check out the price on Photoprice website lately? 5d mk3 with kit was around $3800 OTD, now is over $4800 that is crazy expensive.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 26, 2016)

bdunbar79 said:


> nightscape123 said:
> 
> 
> > Crippling their cameras, releasing 3-4 year old tech and not updating their best sellers... not a big surprise that their profit is falling... Maybe this will help canon wake up and realize they can't just float on past success forever.
> ...





unfocused said:


> Quarterly PROFIT of $361 million. Canon is *******.



Why should people let facts influence their biased opinions?


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## jeffa4444 (Apr 26, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > nightscape123 said:
> ...


Its far from ******* but investors clearly dont like to see a 39% drop in profits and it shows how far wrong you can be with forecasting revenues & EBITDA. Profit also generates the cash for R&D a key metric for technology companies like Canon. 
The Toshiba medical business would not have generated significant bottom line cash yet and Axis AB is only into a year of 85% ownership these are long term strategic shifts to cushion the shock of traditional business demise or fluctuations.


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## memoriaphoto (Apr 26, 2016)

*Toshiba*

Toshiba huh! 

I wonder if that deal was a part of something else :


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## AvTvM (Apr 26, 2016)

Well, the Rebel Yell is over. 

M3 and M10 "solid demand" ... imagine if there also was a kick-ass Canon EOS M4! Not to mention a Canon FF sensored MILC system ... fully competitive with Sony A7 II series. oh wow, are we looking at missed sales or what? 

Sailor in crow's nest: "Iceberg dead ahead!"
Canon Defense League: "Don't worry mate, looks like a small piece of ice only and the Titanic is unsinkable" 
;D


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## IglooEater (Apr 26, 2016)

Canon, I know how to fix it for you: release a 5D IV and 6D II already! Sales should be good.


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## crashpc (Apr 26, 2016)

So there finally is enaugh naysayers, ship jumpers and "not gonna upgrate for just THIS" people, right? It might indicate about nothing I jumped Nikon FX last week from Canon crop, not giving me "any". Or there could be some merit to it.
I don´t know, it´s not going to be good times for all of us I gues...


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## K (Apr 26, 2016)

No surprise here...

Let's look at the two areas cited as the reason for this -


Compact cameras. That whole industry is dying. It is becoming more and more difficult to stay relevant given the onslaught of ever improving cell phone cameras. For compact cameras to hold on, there's going to have to be some serious innovation and tech put into them. I don't see that happening. Because if they couldda-they-wouldda. Besides, the main killer of the compact camera is the inability to easily share. Cell phones will dominate and win because they are a 100% full time internet connected social media portable computer. Compact cameras will never be.


Printers. A lot of people are downright sick of printers, especially inkjets. Most printers are practically disposable these days, low quality machines. The cost of the printer pales in comparison to the ink cartridges. And that's where the disgust comes in. The prices of ink are just outrageously high for what you get. Low output printing, high materials cost. It is just a lose-lose scenario. Manufacturers don't make it easy either, they all use proprietary ink cartridges and even go to great extents and efforts to block the use of cheaper, 3rd party ink suppliers.

This is why in recent years, there's been a bit of a comeback of the laser printer. For people who just want documents, the laser is better. But more expensive, so it has to be folks who really can justify the printer costs. Not the same for inkjets. They are horrible value for document printing. And where they really shine, in photo-printing, they are a terrible value there too. Only with the highest end inkjets, and best paper in ideal circumstances can you get close to professional print. Note, close - not the same. You might get all the resolution and color, but not durability and other qualities.

But really, that isn't even the killer. It's the cost. By the time you get an inkjet printer, the cartridges and paper - what is your 8x10 print cost? What people don't factor in is all the calibration steps and other ink and paper waste that takes place. So your yield is never 100% of your materials. Not even close.

After cost, is convenience. A printer is another counter-space sucking dust collector. All for what? To create physical prints. Useless for most folks as now the medium has become digital. Most photos are stored, kept, shared, viewed, admired on the internet. Particularly on social media sites. It has come to the point where if you want something to hang on the wall - you're going to get a professional portrait done anyway - and you will get it professionally printed as part of the package. For those that want wallets and small prints - who can challenge the speed, ease and pricing of any one of a hundred stores where you can just feed photos to via your cell phone and get prints in minutes?

The trend in consumer electronics is speed, ease, convenience. They don't want printers and cabling and nonsense. They don't even want desktop computers much anymore. Look at the huge rise of laptops and other smaller devices. All wireless. Smaller, wireless, convenient, fast - sharing and connected. That is the trend. Anything that doesn't fall into that is in danger of becoming extinct.

It's not even useful for kids pictures. These days you can get a Groupon deal, go to the mall, and for literally less than $15 USD, get a portrait session done and gets a set of prints. We're talking two 8x10, four 5x7, 16 wallets and usually more.

Less than $15. Photo session with studio lights, props, prints all done. How can this be beat? 

Who wants to deal with some compact camera, then take memory card and go to PC or printer, setup printers, inks and paper and all that nonsense just to get a few pictures.

There is a place for the photo-printer. Pros and serious enthusiasts can make it work economically as they can create proofs and experiment in shop, before spending huge money on very large, expensive high end prints for commercial sales. But this is a sort of cost of doing business thing. It is a step in a greater process, NOT the end result.

That said, and this ties into the average consumer - the quality isn't there. Pro prints are visually better, even to non-experts.

So there you have it, the photo printing for the masses is a dying industry and has been. Photo-printing is, just like cameras with DSLR's, moving toward being for enthusiasts and pros. Document printing is going to laser. And even that too is dying out as the world moves to paperless and there's more cloud computing.


Companies that are into these businesses already know this. They're in it because there's still demand for it. Few things go obsolete over night. It is a process, some longer, some shorter. Canon, Sony, Nikon and others still make money off of these compact point and shoots. BUT - that will and is dwindling down. 

Canon is making moves, granted, slowly - toward adjusting for that. Notice the more specialized DSLR's. More innovation in high end glass. There will always be a market for higher end and pro gear. What kind of innovation is there for Powershots? Not a whole lot. And that goes for Sony too. What is so special about their RX? Short of some incredible technological leap in sensor performance, which isn't happening, these type of cameras are maxed out on innovation. Besides, that same technological leap for sensors would apply to cell phones, bumping their quality up too and making them even more appealing. Figure this - a 20% increase in image quality for a DSLR is significant, but for 95% of uses - not noticeable. That's because the images are already very very good and beyond the quality most can take advantage of on the web. However, 20% boost in IQ for a cell phone is huge. That is very noticeable, as their output is more in line with the web and with small sensors, they need it more. You go from mediocre to good. Whereas in a DSLR, you go from great to slightly greater.

Sure, they can still improve AF, video and add bells and whistles. That's fine, but does not fundamentally change the fact that most people get decent enough results with an iPhone and can instantly share. Until a pocket camera can go on the internet, from anywhere, and login to and instantly share photos - they are destined for extinction. Anyone envision a fully featured Android powered pocket camera that also connects to cell phone carriers? By the time you do that, you might as well add voice and you're back to a cell phone with a larger sensor.


This is all just my $0.02


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## YuengLinger (Apr 26, 2016)

Canon is doing about as well as any imaging company possibly could.

Factors that play largest:

Satisfaction with the quality and convenience of cell phones.

Feeling awkward carrying a "big" camera, especially when a cell phone captures memories well enough.

Believing that investing time and effort into developing photography skills is futile with the oversaturation of good photographers and photographs. And if you look online, selfies are pretty easy, with or without the ducky face.

Printer competition is extremely tough, especially with so many memories being carried around on smart phones and tablets. How many prints can one hang in their own home? There isn't much need for photo-albums anymore. So, you get a printer, who are you printing for now? Grandma?

We are in an era of creative destruction on steroids. Consider Intel, Big Oil, paper companies...Heck, even cash may be disappearing. Sony was king of TVs less than a decade ago; now they no longer manufacture them. Sports Authority in the USA is going bankrupt. Book stores have almost disappeared.

And, worryingly, "It's the economy, stupid."

I believe Canon is doing all it can to navigate in uncharted waters, better than many.


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## AvTvM (Apr 26, 2016)

YuengLinger said:


> I believe Canon is doing all it can to navigate in uncharted waters, better than many.



Canon Defense League: the waters are not uncharted. Evreybody can see miles ahead, that mirroslappers are fading and Canon has too weak a mirrorless offering on the market. It should definitely NOT have been Sony to come out with the first full-blown FF-sensored MILC system. It should have been Canon. That was so plain to see, you really wonder how they could miss that boat so badly. Why on earth did they leave Sony and Fuji so much manuevering room, when they could have shut them down from the start?


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## bdunbar79 (Apr 26, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > I believe Canon is doing all it can to navigate in uncharted waters, better than many.
> ...



It really doesn't change the fact that MILC still hasn't caught on. After all these years, it's still not really growing and has a woefully small market share. Is there something going on somewhere else that we don't have access to that would make you think MILC is the way of the future? I don't really see any evidence to support that. Why do you think it is?


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## unfocused (Apr 26, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > I believe Canon is doing all it can to navigate in uncharted waters, better than many.
> ...



I really hope you just post these comments for entertainment value, because if you actually believed 1/10th of what you post it would represent a real disconnect from reality.


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## mkabi (Apr 26, 2016)

Out of curiosity, what was last years profits?

Can anyone tell me the trend for the last 5 years?


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## that1guyy (Apr 26, 2016)

How about weak products?


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 26, 2016)

unfocused said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > YuengLinger said:
> ...



That's what happens when your mirror slaps you in the head until your ears bleed.


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## takesome1 (Apr 26, 2016)

A rehash of Reuters, really? One should go to the source.

When Canon says this:

From this link:

http://www.canon.com/ir/

_Within the Imaging System Business Unit, sales volume of interchangeable-lens digital cameras remained at around the same level as the previous year owing to healthy demand for the advanced-amateur-model EOS 80D, launched this year, and the EOS M3 and M10, which were released the previous year, in Japan and other Asian markets._

_As for inkjet printers, sales promotions for new products contributed to growth in unit sales in developed markets, such as those in Europe, the U.S. and Japan, while models launched in the previous year equipped with large-capacity ink tanks enjoyed strong demand in Asia, a region in which market conditions have remained sluggish._

_Consequently, unit sales for the segment remained at approximately the same level as for the corresponding period of the previous year._

So the loss had nothing to do with the volume of sales of DSLR's and Printers.


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## udpumpkin (Apr 26, 2016)

unfocused said:


> Quarterly PROFIT of $361 million. Canon is *******.



Canon has invested over $26.5 billion in the assets required to manufacture and distribute imaging products. In that context, the quarterly profit seems rather inadequate.


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## Tugela (Apr 26, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



Gross profit is used in part to fund R&D (which becomes an operating expense), net profit is what they report as "profit".

The danger going forward from reduced profits is that in order to increase net profit in following quarters, less gross profit will be invested in R&D, which in turn will mean fewer product updates in future years.

These things do have consequences, although they might not be immediately obvious to an outside observer.

What would be particularly troubling would be even small drops in revenue, since operating costs tend to be fixed and any reduced revenue stream would have a big impact on gross profits within a particular sector. When that happens senior management will be looking to be making internal cuts to reduce costs, and usually R&D are the hardest hit when that happens since they are not in the immediate revenue generation pipeline.

That is how every tech company works, and so will Canon. I imagine that it is likely trying times within the camera division at the moment.


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## Pascal Parvex (Apr 26, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> Why on earth did they leave Sony and Fuji so much manuevering room, when they could have shut them down from the start?



First, they don't want to kill their DSLR sales, in which they have put a lot of research. And second, a full frame MILC only has a smaller body, but as soon as you add something else than a pancake lens, the size is the same or even bigger than the equivalent DSLR setup, as I have seen in a recent article. The size advantage for full frame MILC is moot. It is just for people who don't want a mirror. And then the Sony and co. offerings have bad battery capacity performance.


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## takesome1 (Apr 26, 2016)

Are we missing the point of how this will impact you?

31% of the loss of profit came from an unfavorable exchange rate.
How can Canon correct this, is simple. 
The cost of cameras and lenses will be going up.


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## VanWeddings (Apr 26, 2016)

just came back from a month in japan. most of the tourists i saw, and that is 90% japanese, were wielding mirrorless cameras. sure, anecdotal, but i saw a lot of people and their cameras.

another observation, the older tourists tended to have just a compact, but the younger ones either had a phone or a pretty recent mirrorless.

i still see lots of DSLRs back home but increasingly more mirrorless. canon needs to have more serious offerings for mirrorless if they want to grow in the long term.


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## George D. (Apr 26, 2016)

Weak printer and camera sales? Last year I contributed an MX925 multifunction and an IXY170 IS. My product registration page runs a page long. Canon should be giving us incentives to buy. One IXY free after another EF lens or something. For the printers, office email ends with green urge "save the environment, think before you print". So we should print less and less. Does that hurt sales? Diversify to drones or binoculars. It's the name of the game.


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## scyrene (Apr 26, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > nightscape123 said:
> ...



It is laughably pathetic how all these people crawl out of the woodwork with the same yawn-inducing (and obviously incorrect) theory. 'If *only* they'd produce the precise camera *I* want, they'd be the most successful company in the world!'


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## scyrene (Apr 26, 2016)

K said:


> This is why in recent years, there's been a bit of a comeback of the laser printer. For people who just want documents, the laser is better. But more expensive, so it has to be folks who really can justify the printer costs. Not the same for inkjets. They are horrible value for document printing. And where they really shine, in photo-printing, they are a terrible value there too. Only with the highest end inkjets, and best paper in ideal circumstances can you get close to professional print. Note, close - not the same. You might get all the resolution and color, but not durability and other qualities.
> 
> But really, that isn't even the killer. It's the cost. By the time you get an inkjet printer, the cartridges and paper - what is your 8x10 print cost? What people don't factor in is all the calibration steps and other ink and paper waste that takes place. So your yield is never 100% of your materials. Not even close.



I agree laser printers are better for document printing, and high volume, lower quality stuff - and that has been the case for many a year. Home inkjet printing is expensive. But at the low end, it's probably a close run thing with print shops - depending on what you print. I run a Pixma Pro 9000 II (I think it's called), and it's very similar in cost to ordering prints - but when I have done that in the past, I was disappointed with the quality. Basically, I can calibrate colours, select the best media for my purposes (and by eye, to taste), etc. And as for durability and quality, well the best Canon paper is rated to 100 years (under ideal conditions), which has to be similar to getting it done centrally. I can't test this empirically, of course.

I think for most people, home photo printing is poor value, but it isn't always inferior. This is just my experience and observation, of course.


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## AvTvM (Apr 27, 2016)

scyrene said:


> It is laughably pathetic how all these people crawl out of the woodwork with the same yawn-inducing (and obviously incorrect) theory. 'If *only* they'd produce the precise camera *I* want, they'd be the most successful company in the world!'



The very camera I want - basically a Sony A7 II by Canon - would sell by the millions. No doubt about that. Nothing laughable at all. Only Canon Defense league thinks, Canon knows everything. Canon f*cked up royally on mirrorless. They could have owned that market from the very start. But they were too stupid to do so adn allowed Sony and Fuji to establish themselves. Sony would have been finished in camera business with their SLT clunkers, had Canon pre-empted them with excellent MILCs.


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## bdunbar79 (Apr 27, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > It is laughably pathetic how all these people crawl out of the woodwork with the same yawn-inducing (and obviously incorrect) theory. 'If *only* they'd produce the precise camera *I* want, they'd be the most successful company in the world!'
> ...



I still don't understand. Why would Canon care about cameras that have an insignificant market share and aren't growing? Actually I feel bad for Sony for developing something that a woefully small part of the market cares about.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2016)

bdunbar79 said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



Canon has sold nearly 100 million EOS cameras. AvTvM has bought a few. Clearly, he knows more about the ILC market than Canon. What's so hard to understand about that? : : :


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## AvTvM (Apr 27, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



Canon's mistakes are rather evident. No matter how many cameras they (claim to) have sold. Kodak sold gazillion rolls of film ... and still went under. As with Canon, past success made them arrogant and disconnected from their client base and potential new customers.


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## bdunbar79 (Apr 27, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



I feel better now. I thought maybe you had a point for a minute, but nope. Just stupidity.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> Canon's mistakes are rather evident. No matter how many cameras they (claim to) have sold. Kodak sold gazillion rolls of film ... and still went under. As with Canon, past success made them arrogant and disconnected from their client base and potential new customers.



Ahhhh, so removing the mirror is as paradigm-shifting as film to digital. Thanks, I just knew you'd have a good explanation for why MILC sales have grown so rapidly that they might even regain the levels they reached in 2012 in a couple of years.


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## Maximilian (Apr 27, 2016)

Oh dear, statistics are great.



dilbert said:


> [snip]
> 
> Why indeed.
> 
> ...


I never would refer to a statistic based on only 1/6 of a year, especially when those two month are the ones after the x-mas season (satturation of the overall market) of the last year and after some important releases on the MILC market (increase of sales in one specific segment).

That's the same as if you were trying to make a forecast in the German building industry just from the two months of December and January (incl. x-mas holidays (in Germany), winter, bad weather allowance, etc...) :


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## Maximilian (Apr 27, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> [snip]
> To reduce its reliance on cameras, Canon agreed to buy ...
> [snip]


Oh, how I love that reaction like Pavlov's dog.
If you can't achieve your goals alone, try exogenic growth, buy another company to increase your numbers and 
find out a few months later that the price was extortionate for what you got.

*lol* :


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## Hesbehindyou (Apr 27, 2016)

Mirrorless sales will be driven by supply rather than demand

Seems clear that Canon needs to reduce costs. Mirrorless greatly reduces manufacturing costs over DSLR... but Canon's mirrorless offering isn't yet competitive with their DSLRs (AI Servo AF speed, EVF performance when panning). We'll see them go prime-time on this when they've got the tech that equals DSLR performance... this will be EF and EF-S mount mirrorless.

Be interesting to see how long they keep a shuttered model for the niche battery-life & ultimate-viewfinder-responsiveness crowd and whether they attempt to introduce a new lens mount for FF... have we seen any FF lens patents?

Summary: cutting costs always preferable than cutting prices. It is this that will be the driver for mirrorless sales (ie Canon will force it on us) and the higher margins from mirrorless will be one of the key factors in return to higher profits.


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## Maximilian (Apr 27, 2016)

dilbert said:


> The *longer term trends* also agree with the proportion of ILC sales becoming (at least) equal parts MILC and DSLR.


I suppose you are 100% right with that statement, if you just put the time span *long* enough.

In Germany for example the sales numbers for 2015 show MLIC sales are stagnating for the last two years while the DSLR is dropping.
(http://www.photoindustrie-verband.de/_files/data/artikel/269/src/DSLR-KompakteSystemkameras_Menge_2015.jpg , in German)
They also say something about the prognosis for 2016 and here they state that overall imaging market will recover and while DSLR will stagnate MILC should grow something. We'll see if they're right. I am more sceptical. 

So maybe that mantra of becoming equal in share becomes true as soon as everybody is buying cell phone cameras only and the two numbers meet close to zero. I hope not so, because that really would be the death to photo industry.


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## Takingshots (Apr 27, 2016)

Revenue weaker partly becoz of Yen/US dollars and partly also the shift of some consumers for competitors quicker to market smaller format FF camera with "better" sensor/DR etc capabilities . (Did Canon 5ds/sr sells alot with higher mp? )


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## Wizardly (Apr 27, 2016)

takesome1 said:


> Are we missing the point of how this will impact you?
> 
> 31% of the loss of profit came from an unfavorable exchange rate.
> How can Canon correct this, is simple.
> The cost of cameras and lenses will be going up.



Glad someone FINALLY read far enough down in the financials to notice this.

Except your conclusion is wrong; it is not so simple. It's a multi-variant problem with the goal of maximizing the profit. Revenue is gained at the selling country but production costs are at the exporting country and reported at the home country. Fixed costs have to be amortized at the exporting/home country per unit. In the end, raising the price can result in a higher fixed cost per unit than the additional revenue gained which reduces the per unit profit. A reverse situation can also be envisioned - a lower price to increase unit sales to maximize profits. The 1DX.2 seems to be priced a little lower than expected.


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## takesome1 (Apr 27, 2016)

Wizardly said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > Are we missing the point of how this will impact you?
> ...



Canon moves slow when it comes to price changes. But if you look at the Yen vs Dollar chart over the past five years you will notice in the last few months that the dollar has been getting stronger and stronger against the Yen. Also you might have noticed that certain lenses and bodies have dropped in cost, and the 1Dx II does have a very low entry point compared to some former Canon flagship cameras, and also that the Yen has been getting weaker over the last few years. The Yen is now getting stronger yet we still have the lower prices on your camera gear.

Canon was caught out of position when the Yen became stronger. There are ways to hedge this, yet apparently Canon didn't.

But to the name of this thread _"Canon Says Q1 Profit Hit by Weak Printer, Camera Sales"_ by Canon's own report it is obviously false and misleading. Canon's big drop in profits had little to do with those two items and mirrorless had no significant impact and was not mentioned either way. 

People are responding to the title of the thread and they have no clue that they are debating something that is for the most part inaccurate.


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## takesome1 (Apr 27, 2016)

dilbert said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > Are we missing the point of how this will impact you?
> ...



That is true. But in 2013 and 2014 when the Yen was dropping in value we didn't see a price change for a year and a half. We would have to go back to see if Canon mentioned in their financials that there bottom line improved because of their slow movement to lower prices.

Bad hedging it does sound like.


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## LDS (Apr 27, 2016)

Apple profits are also down 26%, it surely means Apple is ******* and iPhones (down 16%) too - even if they don't have a mirror.

They can only survive making more AppleWatch (which sell like mirrorless, more or less), and probably iFridges and iThermos for the IoT madness...

Let's face a couple of things. Economy is still suffering in many areas, including Europe and China. Prices in Europe are "deflating", mostly because people don't buy and vendors try to lure them with discounts. This is evidently impacting sales of a lot of "non-essentials" items, including phones and cameras. I would have been surprised of strong results.

There are surely market changes that will stay - compact cameras will become a niche market, and this trend is being accelerated by phone makers now trying to use picture taking capabilities as a differentiator, for lack of alternative for now. But even the phone market shows sign of saturation - and I wonder how much they can push photo/video features within the form factor and storage/battery size, especially in models without expandable storage and replaceable batteries.

Inkjet printing may follow the same path - as more and more services are available online, less need to print (and scan/fax, but in the company I work for, it looks..). Color laser printers are affordable enough now to become the choice for "heavy printers", but they also last longer too, usually.

Home photo printing will become also a niche for those who prefer to master the art (and sustain the costs) - printer capable to achieve quality results are available, but it's not (and never was) a "you print the button, we do the rest" process - and it's far too easy now to compare a bad print with the original on a portable screen (which could be anyway more contrasted and saturated, and thereby "pleasing" to untrained eyes).

It's clear Canon and others have to realign their product lines, but IMHO the DSLR line is where there are less worries...


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## WillT (Apr 27, 2016)

LDS said:


> Apple profits are also down 26%, it surely means Apple is ******* and iPhones (down 16%) too - even if they don't have a mirror.



Nice straw man. 

Canons leadsership seems out of touch..

[quote author=Masaya Maeda - Managing Director and Chief Executive] There's nothing in particular that we learned from Nikon or Sony, but as I said before, we had many demands from photographers all over the world not to sacrifice image quality, so that's what we placed emphasis on and our main priority (during the design process of the EOS 5DS and 5DS R) was to satisfy those photographers. [/quote]


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2016)

LDS said:


> They can only survive making more AppleWatch (which sell like mirrorless, more or less), and probably iFridges and iThermos for the IoT madness...



Samsung has clearly out-innovated Apple in the iFridge market...


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2016)

WillT said:


> Canons leadsership seems out of touch..
> 
> [quote author=Masaya Maeda - Managing Director and Chief Executive] There's nothing in particular that we learned from Nikon or Sony, but as I said before, we had many demands from photographers all over the world not to sacrifice image quality, so that's what we placed emphasis on and our main priority (during the design process of the EOS 5DS and 5DS R) was to satisfy those photographers.


[/quote]

Listening to their customers means they're out of touch? Maybe they should learn how to release then recall defective products from Nikon or how to sell insurance from Sony?


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## WillT (Apr 27, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> WillT said:
> 
> 
> > Canons leadsership seems out of touch..
> ...



Listening to their customers means they're out of touch? Maybe they should learn how to release then recall defective products from Nikon or how to sell insurance from Sony?
[/quote]

Sure they are...


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## slclick (Apr 27, 2016)

WillT said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > WillT said:
> ...



Sure they are...




[/quote]

Photo catfishing


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## AvTvM (Apr 27, 2016)

hehe, Canon Defense League in full swing again ... flapping ... slapping ... with smoke .. and *mirrors* ;D


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2016)

WillT said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > WillT said:
> ...



Sure they are...




[/quote]

Well, thanks but that's just a wannabe neuroanatomist...there was one on sony-rumors and at least one other forum, too, for a while. I think they're all Mikael Risedal waging his private little war of DRgression.


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## WillT (Apr 27, 2016)

Nice you have an impostor!


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## old-pr-pix (Apr 27, 2016)

Let's confuse the analysis with facts... Camera sales continue to reflect a declining market according to CIPA data for all the reasons debated in this forum. 2016 YTD shipments are down 21% from 2015 - essentially all of the decline being camera's with built-in lenses. Interchangeable lens camera shipments are basically flat. Shipments of mirrorless are up 14% while dSLR's are down 5%, yet total shipments of dSLR's exceed mirrorless by roughly 3:1 globally (more like 7:1 in the Americas). Mirrorless share improved in some markets but actually dropped in the U.S. and Japan!

Looking at 2016 BCN data (sales in Japan for 2015), Canon is #1 in share for dSLR's, #1 for interchangeable lenses, #1 for integrated lens cameras, and #3 for mirrorless. Canon increased share in each category from 2014 to 2015.

IMHO Canon is doing a better job than most in managing its position in a declining market situation. Sony is no superstar as Olympus took 10 percentage points away from them in the Japanese mirrorless segment.


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## rrcphoto (Apr 27, 2016)

I haven't read the thread but I can guess.
a) canon is *******.
b) I moved from canon to nikon/sony/fuji/kodak/hellokitty and this tells me I made the right choice.
c) avtvm suggests that canon could have sold millions if they simply developed the camera he specifically wants. Even though sony has it and it sells like shit .. but the special AvTvM model will be a hit I'm sure.
d) canon is fine. diversification is necessary.
e) who cares?


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## rrcphoto (Apr 27, 2016)

WillT said:


> LDS said:
> 
> 
> > Apple profits are also down 26%, it surely means Apple is ******* and iPhones (down 16%) too - even if they don't have a mirror.
> ...


[/quote]

you quote the answer .. but drama queen it enough not to quote the question?

You must watch the industry very closely -* what did you learn from watching Sony and Nikon go before you, in terms of offering nigher resolutions?*

Context is amazing isn't it?

Consider that canon prior to the 36MP sensor ALWAYS held top spot with high resolution sensors .. what did you expect him to say?


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## AvTvM (Apr 27, 2016)

that pretty much sums it up. 
Missing is only the fact, that a single LP-E6N battery could easily power an FF MILC to 500+ shots in real life. 8) 



rrcphoto said:


> I haven't read the thread but I can guess.
> a) canon is *******.
> b) I moved from canon to nikon/sony/fuji/kodak/hellokitty and this tells me I made the right choice.
> c) avtvm suggests that canon could have sold millions if they simply developed the camera he specifically wants. Even though sony has it and it sells like S___ .. but the special AvTvM model will be a hit I'm sure.
> ...


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## rrcphoto (Apr 27, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> that pretty much sums it up.
> Missing is only the fact, that a single LP-E6N battery could easily power an FF MILC to 500+ shots in real life. 8)



LOL

you mean in the AvTvM Universe™?


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> you mean in the AvTvM Universe™?



If you visit, bring lots of garlic – the place is crawling with vampires.


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## rrcphoto (Apr 27, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > you mean in the AvTvM Universe™?
> ...



I was thinking more holy water and an exorcism kit from ACME mail order.


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## slclick (Apr 27, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



There'll be at guy at the gate, his name is Pirmin, tell him the code word "Kazuo"


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## Ozarker (Apr 28, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > It is laughably pathetic how all these people crawl out of the woodwork with the same yawn-inducing (and obviously incorrect) theory. 'If *only* they'd produce the precise camera *I* want, they'd be the most successful company in the world!'
> ...



Please, just go buy the Sony A7 II and the lens adapters. Otherwise you just look like a closet Canon Fanboi. You say you want the Sony A7 II, but it has to be made by Canon. Just get the Sony and print a Canon sticker for the body and move on with your life. It is just sad for you to keep on like this. Do you live near Mesquite, Nevada? If so, I'd like to invite you to my group therapy sessions. I promise, it is a safe place. :

May your dreams be filled with lollipops and nice men in white coats. :-*


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## LDS (Apr 28, 2016)

I expect home photo printing to die with the last generation to grow up with film cameras.
[/quote]

Probably not. There's even a resurgence of old printing technologies (Hahnemühle even launched recently a paper for platinum prints...). Some people are tired of the uniformity of commercial digital processes.

It's a matter of artistic and artisan work, where you try to take as much control as you can from the process to deliver exactly what you want, doing it yourself, to obtain a unique physical object. It's also a matter of learning.

Sure, there are professional digital processes you can fully drive to achieve specific results, but how much they cost?

After all, why do people still paint or engrave, for example?

Then there are the people who believe they must follow the main stream and get rid of any kind of individuality, learning, and self-expression... just become a true "consumer".


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## Ivan Muller (Apr 28, 2016)

I read through the FS this morning...the are lots of little hidden details in there, and although I cant remember the exact numbers anymore ( yes I am getting old!) it would seem that the R&D is exactly the same as last years figures, surprisingly camera sales in Japan is up by 2% ( EosM10?) and overall worldwide camera sales down by 10%. The big hit was taken by the printer side. Toshiba was not included in figures but the (new) Security cameras are. The Litho division showed huge gains in sales and overall Costs are down from last year.

I think the way the market is now and probably for the foreseeable future, whether we like it or not, Canon will remain the leader. BTW Canon employs around 170000 people around the globe.

BTW DPR has just posted their Eos 80D review


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## j-nord (Apr 29, 2016)

Little to do with Canon, more a reflection of the state of the global economy.


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