# Indoor Wedding help



## mbworldz (Jan 19, 2015)

My good friend ask me if I can take pictures for her wedding indoor in a restaurant. I often see people put a light with stand at the corner in a ballroom. Is that a remote flash or just Continuous light that they leave it on all night. 
What do people usually use for indoor lighting. For some reason I like natural lights instead of using the flash. 
If I have to flash, can I set it to ETTL with the flash full power or just half when they are dancing, games.. I have a 5DM3 and speedlight. 24-70 f2.8

Also another question I have is how often a professional photographer use the Shutter Priority mode to capture dancing, like when the couple playing games, dancing......etc. Should I use TV mode to get better shots. I know AV will get you depth of field but I just want some clean and clear shots. 

Just want to delivery the best pictures I can for my best friend. Any help will be great.

Thanks


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## sulla (Jan 19, 2015)

when using an on-camera Speedlite please obey *one most important rule*:
*ONLY EVER USE "P"-MODE*
*Never, never, never use Av or Tv mode ever*, unless you know what you are doing!

The reason is the camera behaves totally differently in those modes, and this difference is not widely known (except on this forum, of course...):

In P mode the camera meters for the flash, assuming the flash is the only light source, and the background light is the background light, however weak it may be, it may even turn out pitch black, but the foreground is captured well.
In Av or Tv mode the camera meters for the background light and uses the flash only as a weak fill flash for the background. The exposure time may become very large, like 0.5 seconds, so that the background is well exposed, and the flah fires at the beginng of the capture. You may well blur all your pictures, if you do so.

So now, with the camera in "P", next important thing is to get the colour of the flash right, i.e. balance it to the colour of the background lighting. This may require a full CTO gel (=orange transpartent foil) over the flah head. Only the 600EX comes with a special gel holder, for older flashes (580EX...) just use a rubber band to fix it to the head.

OK, now we also got the colour right. To achieve a natural look, I mostly turn the flash head upwards to the ceiling and bounce the flash from there or from a nearby (white) wall.

This should give good results, most of the time. You can improve on this by moving the flash away form the camera using a extension cord + an assistant, but form there it gets complicated...

I hope I was helpful,
Sulla


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## mbworldz (Jan 19, 2015)

But with the "P" mode, will it choose a low shutter speed like 1/12 sec or something ? I have used that mode before, in low light situation. Attached my 600EX on the top and it drags the shutter speed too low, it creates blur.




sulla said:


> when using an on-camera Speedlite please obey *one most important rule*:
> *ONLY EVER USE "P"-MODE*
> *Never, never, never use Av or Tv mode ever*, unless you know what you are doing!
> 
> ...


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## sulla (Jan 19, 2015)

It should be limited to 1/60s or something.
However, as the flash will be the main light, and flashes are short, dragging is not a problem in P mode. Only in Av or Tv.


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## mbworldz (Jan 19, 2015)

What about when the couple dancing, is that fast enough to capture motion? 



sulla said:


> It should be limited to 1/60s or something.
> However, as the flash will be the main light, and flashes are short, dragging is not a problem in P mode. Only in Av or Tv.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jan 19, 2015)

Whereas there will be dancing and people moving fast, I prefer to use the "M" mode. Try something like F2.8 aperture and speed 1/125. In the scenes with little movement, can use speed 1/60.

At night, in a restaurant you need ISO above 3200 so that the flash does not kill the ambient light.


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## sulla (Jan 19, 2015)

To be a bit more precise, in P mode the limits are somewhat like 1/60s f/4 and ISO 400.
I don't know the limits exactly, you can look them up here http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/ . It is a very very extensive descripton, requires hours and hours and hours of reading, but it is the best documentation I know of...

When the ambient light is weak, the flash will be made stronger, right up to full power. This will render the subject correctly and the background dark (if the light is weak).

The flash, even at full power, will be somehting like 1/500s, so yes, this will stop the motion of a dancing couple. It might not stop very very quick movements like a tennis ball, however, but high speed flash photography is a different story altogether. Weddings are not high-speed.


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## mbworldz (Jan 19, 2015)

Thanks. Are you saying that this is direct flash not bounce right?
Cause the ceiling it very high. 



sulla said:


> To be a bit more precise, in P mode the limits are somewhat like 1/60s f/4 and ISO 400.
> I don't know the limits exactly, you can look them up here http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/ . It is a very very extensive descripton, requires hours and hours and hours of reading, but it is the best documentation I know of...
> 
> When the ambient light is weak, the flash will be made stronger, right up to full power. This will render the subject correctly and the background dark (if the light is weak).
> ...


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jan 19, 2015)

mbworldz said:


> Thanks. Are you saying that this is direct flash not bounce right?
> Cause the ceiling it very high.
> 
> 
> ...


If the ceiling is too high, you will need a white reflector attached to the camera flash.


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## sulla (Jan 19, 2015)

High ceilings are a problem e.g. in churches. In P mode the camera will not go above the said limits of time, aperture and ISO (and this will limit the ambient lighting). It will make the flash stronger. If the flash is at full power, you will get underexposed images. But you will not get motion blurred images, because, essentially, the flash's 1/500s will freeze the motion. If you can not bounce off a wall instead (or a cardboard held by an assistant), you will have to use direct flash. The camera will not care much where the flash head is pointed to (except for flash zooming and functions like that). Use the flash exposure compensation to adjust the illumination of the whole scene.

In Tv and Av and M mode the camera will take ISO to whatever it is allowed to in the custom settings, 6400, 12800, 102400... and open the aperture fully (f/1.2, if that is possible), and the time to 1s if necessary, and that will take care of the the exposure for the pice of DOF, blur and noise. The flash will then be used to fill the subject a bit. Use flash exposure compensation to adjust illumination of the subject and normal exposure compensation to adjust exposure of the background. It really works nicely.

But if you colour-balance the flash to the ambient light and the ambient light is not too weak, the "look" will always be quite natural in all modes.


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## Besisika (Jan 19, 2015)

mbworldz said:


> My good friend ask me if I can take pictures for her wedding indoor in a restaurant. I often see people put a light with stand at the corner in a ballroom. Is that a remote flash or just Continuous light that they leave it on all night.
> What do people usually use for indoor lighting. For some reason I like natural lights instead of using the flash.
> If I have to flash, can I set it to ETTL with the flash full power or just half when they are dancing, games.. I have a 5DM3 and speedlight. 24-70 f2.8
> 
> ...


To begin with, allow me to assume that you are new to indoor flash. Forgive me if I am wrong.

Since this is a wedding, my most important suggestion to you is to speak to your friend again and let her know that you are not professional and that you cannot guarantee award winnings photo.
Friendship is important and you want to keep that intact. After all you do it for that friendship.

As for bounce flash, yes that is a remote flash. Search on Youtube about off-camera flash and you will find tons of video.
You will need flash transceivers, as a transmitter and receiver.
I like having my camera on manual mode and flash on TTL. Camera on manual mode (if you are familiar with it) allows you to have ambient light consistent, while flash in TTL is better as the distance between the subject and the flash varies in time.

To successfully use a bounce flash on a stick:
The ceiling needs to be white, the height is not too much (3-4m) and you need to gel your flash to match the ambient (1/2 CTO for tungsteen, 1/2 Green if fluorescent - depending on the lamps)
You can leave your flash on your camera if the distance from the corner to your subject is too far (pointed towards a low ceiling), but if this is not the case you can leave the flash (flashes) on a stick.
You can use two of them on opposite sides of the room.
When the subjects are not moving; shoot with high ISO so you can get the mood of the room with ambient light but when subjects are moving alot I prefer killing the ambient light and move to flash entirely and let it freeze the movement. Use both so that customer has both types. For the same shot, take at least two pictures with two different focal lengths. Vary your vantage points as well. 
Don't forget to bring bunch of batteries and don't shoot too often to avoid flash burn.
Good luck!


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## Tabor Warren Photography (Jan 20, 2015)

Av or Tv, yes.

P Mode, maybe?

If the setting is bright and wonderful, Av, set your depth of field to 2.2 or 2.8, shoot around, check your shutter speed AND iso and adjust as needed.

If the setting is dark, Tv is your friend, for dancing, I shoot at 1/125 at the slowest, adjusting iso as needed to keep it out of the 3200 and above range on the fringe of my high iso shots and quite frankly aim to hit my shots with an emphasis on making sure they are still and secondly, making sure my depth of field is accurate. If the reception is dark such as it was at my last wedding, http://photosbytabor.smugmug.com/Tulsa-Wedding-Photography/Jenn-Derek/ I keep the photo a little darker, I use a separate bounce flash and do my best.

I hope this helps! Feel free to look at the info button on any picture to see the settings I used.

All my best,
-Tabor


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## davidson (Jan 20, 2015)

i dont know when the wedding is but my advice is not of the technical nature. i humbly suggest that you go to the location, as to one that closely simulates the location of the wedding/reception, at the correct time and practise/experiment with EVERYTHING. P TV AV M TTL and Manual flash, find out what works for you at your skill level. try to use what everyone else has said and find out what you like best, or what gives you the best results. take a few friends with you, wearing colours close to what the couple will be wearing and practise, practise pracrtise, shoot in raw and practise editing. good luck, come back with pics so we know how it went


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## ctrvs666 (Jan 20, 2015)

I just shot a wedding in a large hall and used TV at 60 with the aperture around a full stop down. I used my 430EX TTL with a diffuser which was aimed at 45 degrees upward. The reception was done in muted lighting so I tried to replicate the lighting the couple was trying to portray. I then used my aperture to calculate the minus stops to get the lighting correct. When I first flashed at 60 with direct light the room looked like it was lighted like a grocery store. So I angled the flash with the bounce and reduced my aperture so I was nearly 1 stop minus the camera's suggested exposure. I would frequently review for too correct lighting but I was able to shoot nearly 400 shots with little fuss. There were no blurs, sharpness was acceptable for the setting, and I had few discards for technical reasons. Most discards were for subject or lack of. I think the aperture ranged from 4 to 6 and I deliberately did some 2.8 for bokeh and then went manual. 

I totally disagree with using P and flash. You will get artificial scene lighting, extremely slow shots with movement blur, and you will get slow camera response from scene calculations. I also used manual focus because autofocus in dim lighting is sooo frustrating. If not using manual at least control the time element. 

I shot a 5dMKII with an 16-35 2.8 L II. An off-camera flash bracket with the flash above the lens (reduce shadow and red-eye) 

Finally the most important thing was to get there early and play with the settings until the light was correct in the review and I had a setting that was pretty bullet proof for the environment.


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## sulla (Jan 20, 2015)

The use of the "P" mode depends on whether a hotshoe-mounted Canon Speedlite (either directly on the hotshoe or via an extension cord or via the speedlite transmitter) is used or whether a studio flash with a transmitter is used:

for hotshoe mounted Canon speedlites in ETTL mode (direct flash or bounced), as in the mbworldz original question, I absolutely recommend P-mode along the other techniques I recommended in the first reply
for studio flashes (or speedlites) placed in corners in Manual mode, with radio triggers, P-mode obviously is nonsense, but I think this is not the situation of mbworldz. M-mode then is a suitable mode to use.

To give an example about the functionin of the modes using a Canon Speedlite, let me give you an example. Consider the situation of an indoor event illuminated by lights on the wall, as in a restaurant. Let's say the camera without flash meters the situation at Tv=0.5s Av=2.8 ISO=1600. Now we mount a Canon Speedlite in the hotshoe in ETTL mode:

in P mode the camera will set itself to Tv=1/60, Av=4, ISO=400 and will put the flash to 1/2 its power to expose for the flash. (numbers are arbitrary and depend on the camera, flash and distance etc...). The background will get underexposed by a few stops and the flash will properly expose the foreground. There will not be motion blur, as the flash illumination lasts about 1/500s or so. This scene will look artificial to some degree, but if the colour of the flash is matched to the natural light, then the look will be as if there was a strong ceiling light above the foreground subject.
in Av or Tv mode the camera will stay at the equivalent of Tv=0.5s Av=2.8 ISO=1600 to expose for the background and will put the flash to, say, 1/32 power to add a little fill light to the foreground. Motion blur, ISO noise and shallow DOF will happen.

OF course you can also set M-mode and choose fixed values for Tv, Av and ISO and the ETTL will set the flash power at a suitable value, but "P" mode will most likely take care of the situation just fine. You can always help "P" mode a bit by dailling in ISO 1600 manually.


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## eninja (Jan 22, 2015)

If I use speedlite. I always shoot manual mode with flash set to ettl.
Professionally wise, I chose manual, I manually set aperture, shutter speed and ISO, depending on the meter reading on the viewfinder.

Reason behind is, you take control. Usually when I shoot auto mode, there's often tendency the resulting image for some reason gets underexpose or over expose, during this time, its time consuming to think what went wrong.

so I better use M mode. with flash exposure compensation.

My suggestion is, use a diffuser, use M mode and ettl. set ettl to +2/3 meter exposure between -1 to 0. focus and press the shutter.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 22, 2015)

mbworldz said:


> For some reason I like natural lights instead of using the flash.



I suspect what you actually dislike is *visible* flash, which qualifies as over-flashing unless there is too little ambient. Good flash exposure is next to invisible unless you're a photog and are determined to look for it.



mbworldz said:


> Also another question I have is how often a professional photographer use the Shutter Priority mode to capture dancing, like when the couple playing games, dancing......etc. Should I use TV mode to get better shots. I know AV will get you depth of field but I just want some clean and clear shots.



It doesn't matter, you can dial in the flash/ambient ratio in either tv or av mode. The most important thing to remember is that in all these modes, even in p or camera m, you're relying on the in-camera metering if you flash with ettl.

If you want consistent exposure in changing light situations when there is no time to repeat shots if the camera has got it wrong, the one option is to use camera m *and* flash m. Problem: You need experience to set this up w/o endless trial & error, that's why good photogs are paid for what they do.


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## Pookie (Jan 22, 2015)

sulla said:


> when using an on-camera Speedlite please obey *one most important rule*:
> *ONLY EVER USE "P"-MODE*
> *Never, never, never use Av or Tv mode ever*, unless you know what you are doing!



P mode... you can't be serious. Maybe find the little picture of a smiling face, not the mountain or the flower mode... or better yet, find the green box. 

I'm thinking advice from this forum is like the blind leading the blind...


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## Marsu42 (Jan 22, 2015)

Pookie said:


> sulla said:
> 
> 
> > when using an on-camera Speedlite please obey *one most important rule*:
> ...



Imho the idea of the P mode advice has its merits, even though it certainly doesn't have the nerd appeal and you cannot be smug in an Internet forum.

In my experience when in a pinch with a client, time pressure and unforeseen obstacles you only want the thing reliably done, grab the money and keep a good reputation. The very very last thing you care about is playing around with dof/shutter in fractions of stops. 

Few clients care about what mode you used (it doesn't show in the picture, you know) or if the bokeh isn't as smooth in one shot, but they do care about the photog not paying attention to them because he/she's busy with the gear.

Personally, I've automated my camera with Magic Lantern as far as possible (even writing my own auto_iso module which unlocks flash) for automating repetitive tasks, but the best advice there is to have a wide range of choices and select the appropriate one. This includes the compromise P option and using original Canon gear instead of 3rd party manufacturer clones.


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## Drum (Jan 22, 2015)

To get the dancing shots I personally wouldn't go below 1/125 obviously the faster the better- I would prefer to clean up noise in post than have motion blurred pictures. if you want to use av go into the settings and set the minimum shutter speed that you prefer. Does the OP use a diffuser on the flash?


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## sulla (Jan 22, 2015)

No, I'm not out of my mind, and last time I checked, my eyesight was quite ok.

Yet, for a hot-shoe mounted Canon speedlite in ETTL-mode, I recommended "P" mode because Tv and Av are unsuitable and P will get the job done most of the time. One can make his life easy.

You can of course feel free to use M mode instead as long as the speedlite is in ETTL. This also will work most of the time, given you chose sensible settings in M-mode. One can meke his life a bit harder, if one choses.

But Pookie, you can also use M mode, put the speedlite into M mode as well and work very very carefully with a handhelt light meter. One can make his life really hard...

So, in all, I recommend to put the camera in "P" mode and the speedlite in ETTL-mode. Perhaps help both the camera and the speedlite a bit with dailling in a slightly higher ISO.


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## Pookie (Jan 22, 2015)

sulla said:


> No, I'm not out of my mind, and last time I checked, my eyesight was quite ok.
> 
> Yet, for a hot-shoe mounted Canon speedlite in ETTL-mode, I recommended "P" mode because Tv and Av are unsuitable and P will get the job done most of the time. One can make his life easy.
> 
> ...



No you didn't recommend... you stated, "Only ever use P mode..." You think this is so important you highlighted this in bold red. 

This coming from a guy with a handful of speedlite photos and spewing absolutes. How about recommending using manual mode and actually trying to learn the relationship between aperture, shutter speed and ISO setting when using a flash. You need a meter to shoot with speedlites in manual very, very, very, very, very carefully ?!?!?! That totally explains why your advice is "let the camera drive...". It also explains why you think Tv and Av are "unsuitable" for flash work. Spend a little more time learning how to use your camera and less time expounding advice on forums.

I do agree sometimes P mode is fine but giving the advice "Only ever use P mode" does a huge injustice to a beginner. Again, this is why I stated, blind leading the blind... advice for a beginner from an amateur. And no, that has nothing to do with your eyesight.


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## sulla (Jan 23, 2015)

zzz, I really would refrain from chosing Av or Tv mode with a Speedlite in wedding circumstances, because of the way EOS cameras meter for the background light in those modes, which is totally different from "P" mode, which meters for the flashlight.

And yes, I think it is important and correct advice, so I highlighted it, but I also explained why. P-mode doesn't shout "I'm an idiot". And yes, I admit, M mode is also possible. But using M mode doesn't mean "I'm a professional, I know what I'm doing". Only the pictures tell the diffrence.

But please, Pookie, be a seeing-eye dog and be so kind to explain to me, the blind, why you think P mode is such a bad thing to use? For so far, you haven't.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 23, 2015)

sulla said:


> because of the way EOS cameras meter for the background light in those modes, which is totally different from "P" mode, which meters for the flashlight.



It is?!? How so? I admit I never bothered to check since I use Av all the time (with min. shutter speed). Could you please elaborate how P ettl metering differers from Av/Tv?


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## sulla (Jan 23, 2015)

Certainly Marsu42. I tried to explain it in my second post or so. For some reason Canon engineers decided to do implement flash metering differently in their firmware. I don't know why, it is strange, but they did, presumably because they thought it will be *helpful for the bind*, like me:
Please find in depth information in
http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html#programflash
I cite:

P-mode:


> The overriding principle of Program (P) mode in flash photography is that the camera tries to set a high shutter speed so that you can hold your camera by hand and not rely on a tripod. If that means the background is dark, so be it. [...] If ambient light levels are not bright (below 10 EV) then P mode assumes that you want to illuminate the foreground subject with the flash. It sets a shutter speed between 1/60 sec and the fastest X-sync speed (see above) your camera can attain. The aperture [sulla: and also ISO] is determined by the camera’s built-in program. [...] Because the camera tries to keep the shutter speed at a reasonable speed for handholding the camera you will end up with dark or black backgrounds if you take a flash photo in P mode when ambient light levels are not bright.


 So, this is why you won't get motion blurred images in P mode. This is what the OP wanted to achieve, so I recommended P mode.
Av mode:


> Av mode lets you set the depth of field by specifying the lens aperture. The camera then chooses a shutter speed ranging from 30 seconds to the camera’s X-sync speed, in order to expose the background correctly. If that means the shutter speed is some really low value so that you need to use a tripod to avoid camera-shake blur, so be it. In dark conditions, therefore, Av mode works in slow sync mode. Flash duration (flash output) is determined by the flash metering system.


This is what the OP wanted to avoid. So I recommended against Av-mode.
Tv mode:


> In this mode the camera lets you change the shutter speed. It then automatically chooses an aperture setting to expose the background correctly. Flash duration (flash output) is determined by the flash metering system. In other words, the camera always works in fill flash mode when it’s in Tv mode - it always tries to expose the background adequately, unlike P mode. If the maximum aperture value of your lens starts flashing in the viewfinder it means the background of the scene you’re shooting is too dimly lit.


The "effect" is not as dramtatic in Tv mode as it is in Av mode, but you will shoot wide open all of the time in dim lights.

So, for this very fundamental difference in flash behaviour of P, Av and Tv mode, I recommended P mode.
Av mode is the most unsuitable one for the given situation the OP asked advice on.


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## old-pr-pix (Jan 24, 2015)

Seems to me that P mode recommendation is good advice given the OP's question. It appears OP is not experienced and is seeking help with workable approach. While it is also good advice to learn your gear and practice, at this point OP probably needs approach which provides the best chance of getting reasonable results.

AV mode can also work if one knows how to set-up special modes or custom functions on their camera. Depends on the specific model where the settings for shutter duration during AV flash are hiding. Canon default is as sulla explained: 30 sec. down to flash sync speed which exposes for background and assumes flash will throttle back for foreground. This can yield long exposure times as already explained. Starting with the 60D Canon allows two alternatives: 1/60 sec. down to flash sync (what I prefer), or fixed at flash sync. Either will tend to underexpose the background, obviously the fixed at sync more so. With proper bounce flash technique these can be quite useful. In a dark setting, the variable range will likely be stuck at 1/60 trying to get as much ambient as possible.

M is great if one knows how or has the time to "chimp" a lot to be sure it's working right. There is still no substitute for experience and knowledge. Use fill card built-in to flash or tape on an index card. Color balance flash if you want to incorporate ambient that avoids the cold look of regular flash. Don't be afraid of some motion blur in dance shots -- if not over done it can add some dynamics to the scene that "flash frozen" images lack. Try 1/8 sec. on a few shots with strong colored backlighting from the DJ (if there is one) just to get a feel for it. (Also, avoid any direct hits from DJ's laser if there is one - bad for sensor!) Good luck!


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## Marsu42 (Jan 24, 2015)

old-pr-pix said:


> Starting with the 60D Canon allows two alternatives: 1/60 sec. down to flash sync (what I prefer), or fixed at flash sync. Either will tend to underexpose the background, obviously the fixed at sync more so.



... though in truth, "Av" with fixed x-sync is simply equivalent to M mode with the added advantage that you can still dial in ec with the back wheel - only the 1dx (or some Magic Lantern versions) have ec in M mode.


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