# 7D full frame



## colin1984 (May 24, 2012)

Hy folks,

about 6 hours ago i´ve got a newsletter in my android app news+weather where i´ve a Canon only Theme, there was a link to a site where they told that maybe the follower of the 7D will/is a full frame, for the proamateurs; If this will resolve as true I´m very dissapointed;

In this link they said that it maybe not so conditioned like 5d;

Maybe in Weather sealing or in Video Segment or Autofocus;

As I said it was a link from a German Site; but unfortunatelly the link went away after acuatlising news+weather app as soon as I Found i will post it here


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## Marine03 (May 25, 2012)

I wouldn't take too much stock in what ever article you read, considering that most think that 7D2 will be APS-C still and that there will be some sort of entry level FF coming out later in the year as well. It would be my guess that the camera they were talking about isn't the 7D2.


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## Marsu42 (May 25, 2012)

colin1984 said:


> about 6 hours ago i´ve got a newsletter in my android app news+weather



Looking at the reliability of internet weather forecasts, that should tell you something  ...

... but what you read is the speculated scenario "70d moves up again and entry-full frame 6d replaces 7d". But Canon may very well find a customer base for both an aps-c and ff body @1500$-2000$.


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## foobar (May 25, 2012)

Canon already released a full-frame 7D. It's called the 5D Mark III.


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## AprilForever (May 25, 2012)

NO.


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## Marsu42 (May 25, 2012)

foobar said:


> Canon already released a full-frame 7D. It's called the 5D Mark III.



No, it's called 1dx if you want to leave the price tag out of the equation since it's got 18mp and fast fps like the 7d. Or, if you really see the 5d3 as the 7d successor, Canon is even beyond their "double the price" policy this time.


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## DB (May 25, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> foobar said:
> 
> 
> > Canon already released a full-frame 7D. It's called the 5D Mark III.
> ...



Wait for the 7D2 MSRP, if Canon Inc. are reading this forum it will be at least $2,500, and that is twice what I paid for my new 7D last September


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## pwp (May 25, 2012)

foobar said:


> Canon already released a full-frame 7D. It's called the 5D Mark III.



+1 Exactly


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## wickidwombat (May 25, 2012)

AprilForever said:


> NO.



lol

and also cant really see any benefit or reason the 7D would become FF kind of defeats the whole basis of the camera


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## Daniel Flather (May 25, 2012)

Keep the rebel line with a rebel to fill xxd, kill the xxd line, release 7d 2.0 as a crop at reasonable price (price is key with the xxd dead), new ff entry, and a mirrorless full frame body for $799. Ok, $799 is a dream.


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## CanonCollector (May 25, 2012)

THIS is what we have come to?


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## Danielle (May 25, 2012)

I don't see how there's even a faint chance in hell the 7d mark ii will be full frame. 1.3x crop... well thats a tiny bit more believable I guess, I'd say NOT.


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## Positron (May 25, 2012)

AprilForever said:


> NO.



Thanks, I got a good laugh.

Using the 7D name on something that's not APS-C at this point would be a PR disaster; if you suggested it to Canon you'd get laughed out of the boardroom. By which I mean fired.

If they do introduce something *like* the 7D that's full frame, it would have to be named something else.

Like 5D Mark III.


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## nicku (May 25, 2012)

the 7DMk2 will be no more than APS-H, more likely APS-C. You want a FF 7D you will buy a 5D3


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## briansquibb (May 25, 2012)

nicku said:


> the 7DMk2 will be no more than APS-H, more likely APS-C. You want a FF 7D you will buy a 5D3



I suppose one could say the 5DIII would be what a 7DII ff would be - apart from the 6fps. If it had been 8fps that would have been a clear indicator that the 7D was the end of that line.

I think the 7DII will be a 10fps crop (1.6 or 1.3). It may not be called the 7DII if it is a 1.3 (but what is in the name)


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## ecka (May 25, 2012)

I can imagine APS-H sensor in 7D2 which would accept EF-S lenses and had various crop modes like 1.3 (native APS-H), 1.6 (APS-C), 2.0 (for super telephoto) + 5D3 AF. At a reasonable price point ($2000-2500?) that would be an awesome camera.
But not FF


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## wickidwombat (May 25, 2012)

ecka said:


> I can imagine APS-H sensor in 7D2 which would accept EF-S lenses and had various crop modes like 1.3 (native APS-H), 1.6 (APS-C), 2.0 (for super telephoto) + 5D3 AF. At a reasonable price point ($2000-2500?) that would be an awesome camera.
> But not FF



fingers crossed
prayingt to the canon designers...
please please please please


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## briansquibb (May 25, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > I can imagine APS-H sensor in 7D2 which would accept EF-S lenses and had various crop modes like 1.3 (native APS-H), 1.6 (APS-C), 2.0 (for super telephoto) + 5D3 AF. At a reasonable price point ($2000-2500?) that would be an awesome camera.
> ...



It is such an obvious upgrade (and reuse of tried and test parts) that you have to wonder why it hasn't happened before


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## ecka (May 25, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > ecka said:
> ...



The reason - greedy marketing. They just want to sell a tiny bit better camera each year ;D


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## briansquibb (May 25, 2012)

ecka said:


> The reason - greedy marketing. They just want to sell a tiny bit better camera each year ;D



Have you evidence it is greedy marketing? The 7D has been on the market for 3 years so perhaps not.


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## ecka (May 25, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > The reason - greedy marketing. They just want to sell a tiny bit better camera each year ;D
> ...



I have soo many ideas on how it could have been a much better camera without too much effort or investments. The fact that I don't see it happening could mean two things - I'm a super genius (very unlikely  ), or the reason I mentioned earlier. Why don't Canon include new features in each firmware update? Just look at the Magic Lantern, it is possible.
Mode dial lock ... dedicated rate button ... seriously? DoF preview lock button would be a better feature .


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## pwp (May 25, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> nicku said:
> 
> 
> > the 7DMk2 will be no more than APS-H, more likely APS-C. You want a FF 7D you will buy a 5D3
> ...



APS-C for sure. The 7D has been a huge seller and plenty of those buyers have sunk $$ into EF-S glass. Do you really think Canon would put all these people offside?

Bring on the 10fps APS-C with improved high iso specs and that sweet 61 point AF.

PW


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## foobar (May 25, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> foobar said:
> 
> 
> > Canon already released a full-frame 7D. It's called the 5D Mark III.
> ...


I didn't say "successor", just "full-frame version".
And no, I don't see the 1D-X having anything to do with either of them, since it's a completely different beast alltogether.

As for the 7D2, I think it will be an evolutionary upgrade (bringing some of the 5D3's features the original 7D didn't have back to the line) and, of course, will still be a high-framerate APS-C camera.


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## briansquibb (May 25, 2012)

ecka said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > ecka said:
> ...



The 7D is still a prosumer body so headline gimicks have a higher priority than fundemental improvements.

Magic Lantern on the 7D - is that an anouncement because not according to the web site ....


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## AvTvM (May 25, 2012)

Daniel Flather said:


> Keep the rebel line with a rebel to fill xxd, kill the xxd line, release 7d 2.0 as a crop at reasonable price (price is key with the xxd dead), new ff entry, and a mirrorless full frame body for $799. Ok, $799 is a dream.



+1 .. YES to everything!


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## lol (May 25, 2012)

Has Canon ever changed sensor size within a specific model line? I don't recall so... So if they make a body called 7D mk2, it will be APS-C. That doesn't rule out a 7D like body with bigger sensor in it, but it would be called something else. If the last CR on 7D2 is correct, then it will be an APS-C 5D3 with a smidge more fps.


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## ecka (May 25, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...


I'm not talking about 7D specifically, but the new Canon DSLR improvements in general (60D, 1D X, 5D3).
For example, I'm using 5D2 and the Set button has no function in image replay/preview mode. Canon could make it a "fast focus check" button which would just switch between normal and 100% view, or even "rate" (no need for a dedicated button).


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## Marsu42 (May 25, 2012)

ecka said:


> For example, I'm using 5D2 and the Set button has no function in image replay/preview mode. Canon could make it a "fast focus check" button which would just switch between normal and 100% view.



Doesn't ml do this on the 5d2, too? On the 60d you can set the + button to instantly zoom to 100% (I'm always using it), and if you ask nicely they'll put it on the set button, too.


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## AprilForever (May 25, 2012)

Positron said:


> AprilForever said:
> 
> 
> > NO.
> ...



Wisely said! I have come to the conclusion that those requesting a full frame 7D (a camera with the 7D's performance, except full frame) either want an inexpensive FF camera, or want something like the 1DX. The 1DX costs nearly 7,000. If the 7D were an inexpensive full frame, it would probably shoot at about 2 FPS. The 5d MK II is an inexpensive FF. And it STILL retails for more than the 7D, with a lot less performance, other than a larger sensor. 

APS-H will still make the 7D prices skyrocket. AND will still kill the lenses. Those who ask for a FF 7D need to seriously figure out what they are really looking for. In some cases, I think they are merely trolling.

Those interested in the 7D as APS-H are looking at things more realistically than the FF crowd, but still, APS-H kills what the 7D is all about.

The 7D is an APS-C camera. And that's how we love it!


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## briansquibb (May 25, 2012)

AprilForever said:


> The 5d MK II is an inexpensive FF. And it STILL retails for more than the 7D, with a lot less performance, other than a larger sensor.



+ low light focusing
+ high iso
+ better video

In the only thing that the 7D beats it at is AF and fps

You pay your money and take your choice. Been there, done both - 7D is now a 1D4, 5dII is now a 1DS3


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## facedodge (May 25, 2012)

My guess

Improved 18MP APS-C Sensor... one extra stop of usable ISO at Raw, two at Jpeg
Dynamic Range probably no meaningful change
Dual Digit 5
10FPS
headphone jack
improved weather sealing
5D3 AF

$2000+


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## colin1984 (May 25, 2012)

So as I said;

Here is the german link:

http://www.slashcam.de/news/single/Demnaechst-Einsteiger-Fullframe-VDSLRs-von-Nikon----9910.html

and here is the text translated with google translation:

Soon beginners VDSLRs full frame Nikon & Canon?

[09:48 Thu, May 24, 2012 [d] by rob ] 
The rumor mill has done a great bubbling and ready as it seems both Canon full frame Nikon DSLRs before, which complete the full-frame segment toward the bottom. At Canon, it would be a Canon EOS 7D, Nikon MKII and a Nikon D600. Looking at the current product portfolio of the two DSLR market leader, makes an entry level full-frame DSLR actually sense, especially since the starting price for the full frame now a whopping 3.000, - € is. 

Price in regions between 1500-2000 € could be an entry in the full-frame segment well imagine. The crucial question for us is whether the video capabilities of higher-quality full-frame DSLRs are 1:1 also be found in the entry-level or whether the user is inclined VDSLR with reduced functions have to live video. 

This abundant cost-driving equipment features exist in the current full-frame DSLRs, which could be omitted from the entry-without the video capability approach must: magnesium housing, sensor resolution, frame rate (photo) to AF sensors and dust-/watersealing only a pair of call ... it probably will eventually amount to a marketing decision whether you want to leave the video segment as more significant focus of the USP or not - we are very excited to see how they will decide this. 

A possible, though perhaps less likely scenario would be the reversal of the previous segmentation by bringing out a full-frame DSLR, which is intended primarily for video, and only secondarily for photography. Ok, Canon has the EOS 1 DC (4K) brought out but what about 2K and what with Nikon? Especially the latter buzz around current rumors that it might be a start to introduce into the video camera range - a Nikon video-cam with interchangeable lenses, which would be just as consistent at least focused on video as the Panasonic GH2 would impress us in any case difficult and once again is: 2012 - an exciting year for the large area sensor cam.


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## nicku (May 26, 2012)

i Have read the most replies on this topic....conclusion: do you realy think that canon will just kill the highly successful APS-H sensor???

Maybe the 7D2 will be APS-C but i am certain we will hear again from the APS-H sensor in the near future...


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## briansquibb (May 26, 2012)

nicku said:


> i Have read the most replies on this topic....conclusion: do you realy think that canon will just kill the highly successful APS-H sensor???
> 
> Maybe the 7D2 will be APS-C but i am certain we will hear again from the APS-H sensor in the near future...



The APS-H sensor was highly developed and was the heart of the top of the range cameras for some time. The logic of throwing away expertise and technology that good is not something that I would forecast - especially as the APS-H size is cheaper to produce than ff, plus it is a video friendly sized sensor. It is of course possible that the APS-H may be consigned to video cams in future rather than DSLRs


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## ecka (May 26, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > For example, I'm using 5D2 and the Set button has no function in image replay/preview mode. Canon could make it a "fast focus check" button which would just switch between normal and 100% view.
> ...



Yes, it does zoom on the 5D2 and I can choose normal-50%-100% jumps or just normal-100%. However, ML main purpose is video and it's fantastic for manual focus, bu I find it a bit awkward for stills.


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## lol (May 26, 2012)

How about trying to put all these options in perspective. Based on current rumours, what could the near future mid to high range Canon body line up look like? Ignoring the Cinema range of bodies that is.

My interpretation:

1D X
Future high MP full frame body
5D mk3
Future budget full frame model (5D2 taking that role for now)
7D mk2 - APS-C sensor, 5D3 style AF
70D - updated with 7D style AF

Imagine possibly THREE sub-1D full frame bodies in the lineup. I'm not sure there's a space for APS-H to fit in to all that.



briansquibb said:


> The logic of throwing away expertise and technology that good is not something that I would forecast - especially as the APS-H size is cheaper to produce than ff, plus it is a video friendly sized sensor. It is of course possible that the APS-H may be consigned to video cams in future rather than DSLRs


I don't think there is much value in APS-H as a technology in itself. It's essentially a scaling exercise. If they can make APS-C and full frame sensors, making something in between isn't likely to cause anyone nightmares.

As an open question, who wants an APS-H body? I can imagine 1D series users may wish to continue having a future path for them on the same course, but do full frame or APS-C users also want APS-H?


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## ruuneos (May 26, 2012)

Agreeing with lol, 7D will always have APS-C sensor. 5D must have little brother :


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## Marsu42 (May 26, 2012)

lol said:


> 1D X
> Future high MP full frame body
> 5D mk3
> Future budget full frame model (5D2 taking that role for now)
> ...



I agree if the this is what makes sense as far as I understand what would be competitive and what Canon users would buy. The only thing I'm not so sure about if there is a big enough market for a 7d2 that would cost as much as the "budget ff", but maybe since it's got the 1.6x tc and if it would be better equipped for outdoor use. Now let's see what Canon really does and when :-o



lol said:


> As an open question, who wants an APS-H body? I can imagine 1D series users may wish to continue having a future path for them on the same course, but do full frame or APS-C users also want APS-H?



The problem with aps-h is that you cannot use the good ef-s ultrawides nor can you use the potential of ef ones. That's why I think it'll be phased out. And even if the sensor is cheaper to produce than ff, I don't think this would make that large a difference nowadays in comparison to the rest of the body. If Canon want to release a new ff body well below $2000, they certainly can and don't need aps-h for that.


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## edawg (May 26, 2012)

7d ii won't be aps-h since you wouldn't be able to use ef-s lenses. Canon's not gonna sell a new dslr with the potential to kill that entire line of lenses.


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## briansquibb (May 27, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> The problem with aps-h is that you cannot use the good ef-s ultrawides nor can you use the potential of ef ones. That's why I think it'll be phased out. And even if the sensor is cheaper to produce than ff, I don't think this would make that large a difference nowadays in comparison to the rest of the body. If Canon want to release a new ff body well below $2000, they certainly can and don't need aps-h for that.



Thanks for this evenings laugh 

1D4 = sports camera being phased out because it doesn't make most use of ultra wide lens. The logic escapes me - but you wont see a sports tog with anything as short as a 14mm

Carrying your logic forward then the APS-C is ******* because it cant make good use of the ultra wide lens like the ff bodies


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## Marsu42 (May 27, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Thanks for this evenings laugh



) This is the great thing about the internet - just understand what you want, and you'll have plenty to laugh forever! Also, it saves you plenty of calories because there's no need to think anymore, and why would you given the current style in this forum. Right on, commander!

If you read my post again, I didn't write the *1d4* was phased out because of not working with ultrawides, but *aps-h* will be because it won't appear in a 7d2 (see the thread title?) for this reason. Just because the 7d is very well received by people who want the built-in 1.6x tc, it's still positioned for general use and thus will either have to work with ef or ef-s ultrawides. And at the same time the 1dx replaces the 1d4 for completely other reasons that have nothing to do with this thread, so aps-h is gone. 1+1 = 2, see?


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## briansquibb (May 27, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for this evenings laugh
> ...



The reason for APS-H is as for a sports camera. You might believe the 1DX replaced the 1D4 because that was the story Canon told us. Personally I believe the 1DX is not a functional replacement for the 1D4 - ask any wildlife/BIF shooter. The 7D is also a sports camera - so I would guess an APS-H version would also be a sports camera. Probably explains why the APS-C is still here because they dont do ultra wide like the FF.


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## Marsu42 (May 27, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> The 7D is also a sports camera - so I would guess an APS-H version would also be a sports camera.



It is a sports camera to *you*. But go in a shop and ask "What's the 7d good for?". They'll say it's an excellent camera for everything. And it is, well, if it would run magic lantern. And "everything" simply contains a lens offer below ff-20mm that isn't a fisheye. The many bird shooters with a 7d here in this forum produce a shifted view where the 7d is really positioned by Canon.

I don't say a 7d2 with aps-h wouldn't make sense or that I wouldn't want to use it, but I am saying that this is the reason why I am rather sure it won't happen, even if the ef-s compatibility problem wasn't there.


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## briansquibb (May 27, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > The 7D is also a sports camera - so I would guess an APS-H version would also be a sports camera.
> ...



First time I have heard the 7D described as a general purpose camera - sure any camera will take any picture - like I often use the 'studio' 1DS3 for sports.

From Canon Europe on the 7D product page



> 18 Megapixel APS-C CMOS sensor
> The EOS 7D offers superb resolution thanks to its 18MP CMOS sensor. Offering the photographer the choice of flexibility and creativity.
> 
> Up to 8 frames per second
> Shoot 18MP 14-bit images at up to 8 fps as standard, in a burst of up to 126 large JPEGs; photographers can capture both detail and action.



FF have the superb 14mm wide angle lens to use - shorter than anything possible on APS-C.


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## lol (May 27, 2012)

Sigma 8-16 is not a fisheye and is equivalent to around 13mm. No, it isn't as fast but be realistic you're not using this class lens for shallow DoF short of the subject sitting on the lens filter, so ignoring DoF you could argue it has a bit more low light potential. With ignored DoF equivalence, full frame has that anyway.

Of course you can at this point suggest using one of the 12mm zooms on full frame and trump that again...


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## briansquibb (May 27, 2012)

lol said:


> Sigma 8-16 is not a fisheye and is equivalent to around 13mm. No, it isn't as fast but be realistic you're not using this class lens for shallow DoF short of the subject sitting on the lens filter, so ignoring DoF you could argue it has a bit more low light potential. With ignored DoF equivalence, full frame has that anyway.
> 
> Of course you can at this point suggest using one of the 12mm zooms on full frame and trump that again...



The point I was trying to make is that using the ultra wide capabilty to phase out a sensor is totally baseless. APS-C, FF and even APS-H all have their merits and should be used for their strengths. APS-H is a compromise sized sensor that performs very well in a variety of situations with no real weak points. APS-C and FF will trump it in various extreme situations but as a general pupose sensor it is excellent. APS-H may die - but simmilar sized sensors may appear as a replacement (for example as a 16:9)


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## Positron (May 27, 2012)

I'm genuinely curious about one thing which I've never understood.

Assuming the same pixel count, aside from the higher pixel density (which we know is not always a good thing), what is it that you gain with an APS-H sensor versus FF and cropping? It seems with FF you get more control over DoF, the ability to go wide if you need to, better low-light performance, and so on; whereas if you crop the final image back to an APS-H equivalent field of view, you're back where you started, just having had more options along the way. The only obvious benefits that jump out at me are the price, and the ability to discard the corners of the frame, which are generally not problematic on the long lenses favored by most APS-H aficionados. Is there something I'm missing?

Thanks in advance for clarifying.


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## briansquibb (May 27, 2012)

Positron said:


> I'm genuinely curious about one thing which I've never understood.
> 
> Assuming the same pixel count, aside from the higher pixel density (which we know is not always a good thing), what is it that you gain with an APS-H sensor versus FF and cropping? It seems with FF you get more control over DoF, the ability to go wide if you need to, better low-light performance, and so on; whereas if you crop the final image back to an APS-H equivalent field of view, you're back where you started, just having had more options along the way. The only obvious benefits that jump out at me are the price, and the ability to discard the corners of the frame, which are generally not problematic on the long lenses favored by most APS-H aficionados. Is there something I'm missing?
> 
> Thanks in advance for clarifying.



The APS-H means you take pictures with less pixels which means faster frame rate

The low light is a lot closer than most people realise - the 1D4 is near enough the same IQ at high iso as the 5DIII 

The cropping factor means that cheaper L lens work better as they avoid the soft edges

DOF is not an issue

You will find that the 1DX cropped puts less pixels over the subject than the 1D4.


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## wickidwombat (May 27, 2012)

Positron said:


> I'm genuinely curious about one thing which I've never understood.
> 
> Assuming the same pixel count, aside from the higher pixel density (which we know is not always a good thing), what is it that you gain with an APS-H sensor versus FF and cropping? It seems with FF you get more control over DoF, the ability to go wide if you need to, better low-light performance, and so on; whereas if you crop the final image back to an APS-H equivalent field of view, you're back where you started, just having had more options along the way. The only obvious benefits that jump out at me are the price, and the ability to discard the corners of the frame, which are generally not problematic on the long lenses favored by most APS-H aficionados. Is there something I'm missing?
> 
> Thanks in advance for clarifying.



a 16-35 f2.8L on an APS-H body is an awesome walk around combo
effective focal range is about 20mm to 48mm 
on APS-H its sharp corner to corner even wide open
no extending like the 24-70.
I really hope a 7D size camera comes out with aps-h 
forget the long lenses my 16-35 would live on that camera and my 85mm on the 5Dmk3


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## AvTvM (May 28, 2012)

APS-H is as dead as can be. It will never come back. It was a stop gap measure at a time when FF sensors were too expensive.

There will be a successor to the Canon 7D in due course and it will be APS-C without the slightest doubt. Only area of uncertainty is, whether there will be a 70D AND a 7D II or whether the 2 lines will be merged.


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## tnargs (May 29, 2012)

I would like to see 7D2 have a switchable viewfinder OVF/EVF. On EVF mode you can have better nighttime vision, super-fast shutter operation, and better hand-held videoing.


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## briansquibb (May 29, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> APS-H is as dead as can be. It will never come back. It was a stop gap measure at a time when FF sensors were too expensive.
> 
> There will be a successor to the Canon 7D in due course and it will be APS-C without the slightest doubt. Only area of uncertainty is, whether there will be a 70D AND a 7D II or whether the 2 lines will be merged.



I do wish people would stop stating 'facts' which are just to prove a point

The original 1D was realeased in 2001 with APS-H and the APS-H sensored 1Dx has continued to date - 11 years without a break.

The EF-S mounts on APS-C cameras on the other hand were not introduced until 2003.

Perhaps it is the APS-C that is the stop gap measure at a time when APS-H sensors were too expensive?


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## Ronnie (May 29, 2012)

The reason - greedy marketing. They just want to sell a tiny bit better camera each year 


Have you evidence it is greedy marketing? The 7D has been on the market for 3 years so perhaps not.


Ok, but what about the 60D. There's you proof. Plastic house, 3,5fps and so on and so on.


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## AvTvM (May 29, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I do wish people would stop stating 'facts' which are just to prove a point
> The original 1D was realeased in 2001 with APS-H and the APS-H sensored 1Dx has continued to date - 11 years without a break.


well, it seems necessary to establish the facts here: the last and final APS-H camera (Canon EOS 1D Mk. IV) was introduced in October 2009. So the APS-H line of digital cameras has ended a mere 8 years after its introduction in September 2011 (Canon EOS 1D).

Speculation: APS-C will most likely be around for another 20 years or so. 

Reason: Both APS-C and APS-H sesnor formats were originally introduced because 135 format ("FF") imaging sensors were "too expensive" and or technically to challenging to produce in mass-market quantities. By now, "FF"-sensors can be manufcatered rather cheap, although Canon tries to still charge huge premiums for that sensor format. APS-H has turned out to be too close to "FF" to be continued on its own merit. This was clear from the start and therefore Canon has never even bothered to develop APS-H specific lenses. After 8 years Canon finally pulled the plug on APS-H and decided to move to only 2 sensor sizes in its DSLRs like all its competitors in the market. Better synergies of scale=more profit.

AS opposed to APS-H, APS-C does bring large enough photograhic advantages compared to both "FF" and smaller sensor formats as well. Super Teles are expensive and there are quit a number of reach-limited photographic applications. Furthermore, "walk-around" and wide-angle lenses can be built significantly more compact, lighter and at significantly lower cost compared to FF-lenses. Part of these savings are passed on to attract lower-budget customers while the larger part of these savings is pocketed by the Canon (and the other makers) = more sales AND more profit. This is why APS-C is going to stay around for a while. This will continue with mirrorless digital interchangeable lens cameras: mFT ... too small, advantage in lens size not convincing vs. APS-C ... so APS-C will win. FF will be reserved for the "top segment". History repeats itself.


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## briansquibb (May 29, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > I do wish people would stop stating 'facts' which are just to prove a point
> ...



You are just manipulating the facts to suit your argument. It is absolute nonsense to say the APS-H died in 2009 anymore than APS-C died in 2009 when the last APS-C sensor was released.


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## AvTvM (May 29, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> You are just manipulating the facts to suit your argument. It is absolute nonsense to say the APS-H died in 2009 anymore than APS-C died in 2009 when the last APS-C sensor was released.



I don't think so. The final APS-H DSLR camera was announced on October 20, 2009 http://www.dpreview.com/products/canon/slrs/canon_eos1dmkiv
Canon has made it very clear, that the 1D X (with "FF" sensor) is the successor to its former APS-H line of DSLR cameras.

The latest APS-C DSLR camera however, was announced just days ago on May 21, 2012 http://www.dpreview.com/products/pentax/slrs/pentax_k30

ah yes ... my world and my imagination stretches way beyond the very limited Canon "fan-iverse" and it very much includes good photographic gear from other manufacturers too.


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## briansquibb (May 29, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > You are just manipulating the facts to suit your argument. It is absolute nonsense to say the APS-H died in 2009 anymore than APS-C died in 2009 when the last APS-C sensor was released.
> ...



No so - Canon said it was replacing the 1D4 and the 1DS3 with the 1DX - cant you get the facts right??


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## AvTvM (May 29, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



that is another way of stating the obvious, yes.  

But of course you are free to devotedly await the next APS-H DSLR from Canon ... until kingdom come ... whichever comes first. I would just advise to not hold your breath though!


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## briansquibb (May 29, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> that is another way of stating the obvious, yes.
> 
> But of course you are free to devotedly await the next APS-H DSLR from Canon ... until kingdom come ... whichever comes first. I would just advise to not hold your breath though!



That is your interpretation about the demise of a camera body linked to the demise of a sensor technology

If you look at my eqipment line you might notice that I am not fixated on any technology - but that would spoil your argument that I have all 3 sensor type


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## wickidwombat (May 30, 2012)

APS-H is awesome
- noticably better IQ than APS-C
- benefits for cropping the edges of the image circle so still get the sweet spot effect
- extra reach
- makes certain lenses exceptionally good focal range
- Dof hits a nice middle ground between FF and APS-C

I'd love a nice APS-H sensor in say a 7D body


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## briansquibb (May 30, 2012)

What is interesting is the Canon APS-C is not the same size as other APS-C. In fact the Canon APS-C sensor is significantly smaller than the competition (about 5- 7%) of Nikon, Sony, Pentax and Samsung. The Canon APS-C has a crop factor of 1.6 whereas the others have a crop factor of about 1.5. 

The same with APS-H which even the Canon sensors are different sizes, with the Leica M8 sensor being slightly larger.

The sensor in the 1D3 has a crop factor of 1.28 and the 1D4 crop factor of 1.29


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## Ronnie (May 30, 2012)

hmmm, I don't think that Canon will come with a APX-H senson, thus I would very much like to see one in af EOS 7DII. That would be awesome. ;D

But no, it will be a APS-C. Then Canon put a new APS-C sensor with great ISO, IQ and DR in the xxD and xxxD as time goes. 
The share holders will love that! :-\


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## AvTvM (May 30, 2012)

briansquibb said:
 

> What is interesting is the Canon APS-C is not the same size as other APS-C. In fact the Canon APS-C sensor is significantly smaller than the competition (about 5- 7%) of Nikon, Sony, Pentax and Samsung. The Canon APS-C has a crop factor of 1.6 whereas the others have a crop factor of about 1.5.
> The same with APS-H which even the Canon sensors are different sizes, with the Leica M8 sensor being slightly larger.
> The sensor in the 1D3 has a crop factor of 1.28 and the 1D4 crop factor of 1.29



Correct. Canon cannot even get something as simple as physical sensor size consistent between models and generations.


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## AvTvM (May 30, 2012)

Ronnie said:


> hmmm, I don't think that Canon will come with a APX-H senson, thus I would very much like to see one in af EOS 7DII. That would be awesome. ;D
> But no, it will be a APS-C. Then Canon put a new APS-C sensor with great ISO, IQ and DR in the xxD and xxxD as time goes.
> The share holders will love that! :-\



Many Canon APS-C users with great EF-S lenses (10-22, 17-55, 15-85, 60 Macro) like myself would also love having a clear APS-C commitment with possibilities to update Canon APS-C cameras into the future. 

If the 7D II comes with a 18 MP sensor with IQ/DR at least on par with the Nikon D7000 plus a few other minor improvements - e.g. for once a fully functional Auto-ISO implementation - and with a very reasonable price tag of max. USD/€ 1,500, then Canon will have another bigtime seller. Unless Nikon also launches a killer-DX camera ["D400"] that beats the 7D II to the punch and/or sells for less money ... like D800 vs. 5D3.


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## lol (May 30, 2012)

I'd argue about "significance" of the Canon vs. rest of world in APS-C sizes. Yes it is smaller, but in photographic terms it is really insignificant, unless you really need the absolute widest angles where a bigger APS-C would give you a fraction over a smaller one. 

On a similar note, that is why APS-H was a bit awkward in the bigger picture. It's a bit too close to both APS-C and full frame.


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## Marsu42 (May 30, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> Canon cannot even get something as simple as physical sensor size consistent between models and generations.



Is there any reason they should try at all? I certainly don't care about a digit difference in the crop factor.


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## briansquibb (May 30, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > What is interesting is the Canon APS-C is not the same size as other APS-C. In fact the Canon APS-C sensor is significantly smaller than the competition (about 5- 7%) of Nikon, Sony, Pentax and Samsung. The Canon APS-C has a crop factor of 1.6 whereas the others have a crop factor of about 1.5.
> ...



Why would they keep the same size?

You are just seizing on the opportunity to criticise Canon based on nonsense.


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## ecka (May 30, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > What is interesting is the Canon APS-C is not the same size as other APS-C. In fact the Canon APS-C sensor is significantly smaller than the competition (about 5- 7%) of Nikon, Sony, Pentax and Samsung. The Canon APS-C has a crop factor of 1.6 whereas the others have a crop factor of about 1.5.
> ...



So what? Nikon D1 and D2 series were APS-C based  , while Canon used APS-H in their 1D series from the beginning.


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## aznable (May 30, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Why would they keep the same size?
> 
> You are just seizing on the opportunity to criticise Canon based on nonsense.



he is trolling 

the forum moderator would constrain him to post a photo to post a message; maybe he would remember why a person spend mony to buy a camera


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## briansquibb (May 30, 2012)

lol said:


> I'd argue about "significance" of the Canon vs. rest of world in APS-C sizes. Yes it is smaller, but in photographic terms it is really insignificant, unless you really need the absolute widest angles where a bigger APS-C would give you a fraction over a smaller one.
> 
> On a similar note, that is why APS-H was a bit awkward in the bigger picture. It's a bit too close to both APS-C and full frame.



I thought APS-C was too close when it was introduced two years after APS-H was released. Still wont be long before APS-C is consigned to P&S and compacts .


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## wickidwombat (May 31, 2012)

APS-H 4 LYFE! ;D


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