# Canon confirms that the EOS R5 is the 5D series equivalent for mirrorless



## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 24, 2020)

> In an interview with Techradar, Canon’s product marketing specialist David Perry talks about the Canon EOS R5 and where it fits.
> *On the ergonomic decisions for the Canon EOS R5*
> “We’ve got the joystick on here, instead of the Multi-function bar. Everybody knows the multi-function bar on the EOS R got a mixed response – some people really got on with it, some people really couldn’t get on with it at all,” he said. “So maybe going with this is a safer bet – more people are used to the multi-controller.”
> “Because this is a 5-series, more people at that kind of level will expect functions similar to what you get on a 5D.” he added.
> ...



Continue reading...


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## masterpix (Mar 24, 2020)

I just hope that they will make a 5D-V that will have similar features as well. Although it seems that the R system is taking over.


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## Maximilian (Mar 24, 2020)

I still wonder about the relatively high MP count. But okay, it can handle the high FPS as well, so why not...


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## Maximilian (Mar 24, 2020)

masterpix said:


> I just hope that they will make a 5D-V that will have similar features as well. Although it seems that the R system is taking over.


Let's hope together!

This


David Perry said:


> ... _This isn’t a replacement for the 5D Mark IV or anything like that_ ...


and this


Canon Rumors Guy said:


> ... whether or not Canon will make an EOS 5D Mark V DSLR. While I cannot confirm anything, I do believe it is coming.


still gives me some hope.

As for the (not so well) performance of the EVF I am still in the market for a 5D Mark V. Not yet willing to jump system and do all the invest again.
Though the rest of the R system is very interesting...


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## Chris.Chapterten (Mar 24, 2020)

Definitely sounds like a 5D mark V is coming. I had lots of issues with autofocus on the 5D mark IV so I'm sticking with mirrorless. My favourite focal length is also 50mm so the R series is a much better choice... the EF 50mm lenses aren't very good at all


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## mclaren777 (Mar 24, 2020)

I want a 5DV sooo bad!


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## Trankilstef (Mar 24, 2020)

I'mnso waiting on this camera. I hope it won't be massively delayed.


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## AEWest (Mar 24, 2020)

I myself couldn't imagine buying a new DSLR these days. And I like my Canon DSLR (for stills)!

If I bought a new DSLR I feel as though I would be buying the T90 (Canon's last non EOS SLR). By this I mean I would be buying into a dead mount and not getting the advantages of the new RF glass.

So if the 5d5 came out with virtually the exact same specs as the R5, it would have to be sold at a huge discount to reflect this major limitation.


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## Chaitanya (Mar 24, 2020)

Thats good to hear.


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## unfocused (Mar 24, 2020)

AEWest said:


> ...So if the 5d5 came out with virtually the exact same specs as the R5, it would have to be sold at a huge discount to reflect this major limitation.



What limitation? Mirrorless and DSLR are different formats. Each has it's strength and weaknesses. We have yet to see a mirrorless camera that can do everything a DSLR does, just as we have yet to see a DSLR that does everything a mirrorless does. Judging by other comments on this very thread, there remains lots of demand for a 5D V. 

As far as the lens mount goes, Canon has repeatedly said the EF mount isn't going away. They have paused development of new lenses to concentrate on the RF mount, but a pause is just that, a pause. And, given the robust selection of EF lenses already available, there aren't a lot of holes in the lineup anyway.


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## jazzytune (Mar 24, 2020)

I was thinking... Now that the Tokyo's Olympics are postponed until next year, will Canon take its time before officially releasing the R5 and R6 models? The economy is slowing down and will continue to slow down tremendously in the next few months, and the timing to launch new models couldn't be worse...


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## unfocused (Mar 24, 2020)

I would not be surprised to see Canon announce both the R5 and the 5DV at the same time. True it would be unusual for Canon to announce two bodies at once, but in this case it makes sense since they are looking more and more like different models of the same camera. Of course it would depend on how many features they share, but if they are essentially identical in major specs and retail for roughly the same price at introduction, it would make sense.


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## unfocused (Mar 24, 2020)

jazzytune said:


> I was thinking... Now that the Tokyo's Olympics are postponed until next year, will Canon take its time before officially releasing the R5 and R6 models? The economy is slowing down and will continue to slow down tremendously in the next few months, and the timing to launch new models couldn't be worse...


I think it will depend more on supply chain issues, rather than the postponement of any major events. The 5 series has never been an action camera. Much more popular with event and wedding photographers, as well as all around users. The Canon executive in the interview seemed to indicate that the announcements would not be delayed, but that interview was probably done before the recent global meltdown of the past week or so. Yeah, I agree they may delay the announcement, but I don't think the Olympics will have anything to do with it.


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## koenkooi (Mar 24, 2020)

jazzytune said:


> I was thinking... Now that the Tokyo's Olympics are postponed until next year, will Canon take its time before officially releasing the R5 and R6 models? The economy is slowing down and will continue to slow down tremendously in the next few months, and the timing to launch new models couldn't be worse...



I'd like to think that Canon will release them roughly as planned, which means they have a year extra to do firmware updates in preparation for all the postponed sport events.


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## AEWest (Mar 24, 2020)

unfocused said:


> What limitation? Mirrorless and DSLR are different formats. Each has it's strength and weaknesses. We have yet to see a mirrorless camera that can do everything a DSLR does, just as we have yet to see a DSLR that does everything a mirrorless does. Judging by other comments on this very thread, there remains lots of demand for a 5D V.
> 
> As far as the lens mount goes, Canon has repeatedly said the EF mount isn't going away. They have paused development of new lenses to concentrate on the RF mount, but a pause is just that, a pause. And, given the robust selection of EF lenses already available, there aren't a lot of holes in the lineup anyway.


I would say that in an expanding camera market, there would be room for both DSLR and mirrorless. However, in a rapidly shrinking market it makes little sense to continue to support two different FF lens lines - they need to consolidate to RF so they can amortize RF development costs over as many lens sales as possible.

This won't happen if they continue to pump out new EF mount bodies. So that is why I see the 1dx3 as Canon's DSLR swan song.


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## neurorx (Mar 24, 2020)

I know this has been meeting but are we still anticipating a 5DV this year? Or next? I don’t think I’ve seen anything other than mirrorless cameras mentioned in the coming future with respect to the R5, R6 and R1. I think I’d like an new 5D but I am wondering if the R5 going forward is going to be it.


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## BillB (Mar 24, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I would say that in an expanding camera market, there would be room for both DSLR and mirrorless. However, in a rapidly shrinking market it makes little sense to continue to support two different FF lens lines - they need to consolidate to RF so they can amortize RF development costs over as many lens sales as possible.
> 
> This won't happen if they continue to pump out new EF mount bodies. So that is why I see the 1dx3 as Canon's DSLR swan song.


Instead of putting out a 5DV, Canon could keep the 5DIV on the market to meet whatever 5 level demand there is for a DSLR.


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## AEWest (Mar 24, 2020)

BillB said:


> Instead of putting out a 5DV, Canon could keep the 5DIV on the market to meet whatever 5 level demand there is for a DSLR.


I think that is a good idea and it will be much less expensive than R5 as it won't have the most current tech or mount, but still take excellent photos with less expensive EF glass.


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## tron (Mar 24, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> I'd like to think that Canon will release them roughly as planned, which means they have a year extra to do firmware updates in preparation for all the postponed sport events.


+1 Especially for the already reported 1DxIII issues!


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## AccipiterQ (Mar 24, 2020)

Maximilian said:


> I still wonder about the relatively high MP count. But okay, it can handle the high FPS as well, so why not...



Yeah that's a bit confusing, it's not that much lower than the 5Ds.....I'm wondering if the R5 is going to be closer to 40 when we finally see it. Not everyone can use or wants that many pixels...


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## Bert63 (Mar 24, 2020)

Price? Someone? Anyone?


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## slclick (Mar 24, 2020)

Want to really differentiate between an R5 and a 5DV? Drop the video specs in the dslr down to pedestrian levels and make the 5DV still oriented.


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## DBounce (Mar 24, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Price? Someone? Anyone?



$3995... they will be available in only limited quantities initially.


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## AEWest (Mar 24, 2020)

slclick said:


> Want to really differentiate between an R5 and a 5DV? Drop the video specs in the dslr down to pedestrian levels and make the 5DV still oriented.


Unfortunately that doesn't resolve the one too many lens mount issue.


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## Bert63 (Mar 24, 2020)

DBounce said:


> $3995... they will be available in only limited quantities initially.



Source?


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## unfocused (Mar 24, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I would say that in an expanding camera market, there would be room for both DSLR and mirrorless. However, in a rapidly shrinking market it makes little sense to continue to support two different FF lens lines - they need to consolidate to RF so they can amortize RF development costs over as many lens sales as possible.
> 
> This won't happen if they continue to pump out new EF mount bodies. So that is why I see the 1dx3 as Canon's DSLR swan song.


I have a different perspective. I believe that in a contracting market the worst thing to do is abandon a substantial share of your customer base. If it were likely that 100% or even 90% of full frame DSLR users would migrate to the R line, it might make sense, but it's much more likely that Canon could lose those DSLR users either to Nikon or simply through lost sales opportunities as they keep their current DSLRs.

You are assuming that the cost of maintaining both lens lines is substantial and that there would be some significant savings in abandoning the EF line. I disagree. For the EF line the development costs have already been recovered. The cost of enhancements to the EF line are likely to be fairly small or transferable to RF lenses -- such as improved coatings or design changes that improve manufacturing efficiencies. Even relatively significant improvements, such as the weight reductions in big whites, may not be that costly in terms of development and would certainly be transferable between the EF and RF lines. 

I expect that Canon does a cost-benefit analysis of every lens they produce, regardless of mount, and determines whether or not it will be profitable on its own.


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## tron (Mar 24, 2020)

I can't find any reason why Canon should differentiate between the mirrorless and the DSLR version. The mount differentiation is pretty good. Unless by stills differentiation they mean lack of AA filter, 45Mpixels at least (to consolidate 5DIV and 5DsR) and 1DxIII AF. Then YES! I would take it instead of R5 (I do not shoot video).


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## AEWest (Mar 24, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I have a different perspective. I believe that in a contracting market the worst thing to do is abandon a substantial share of your customer base. If it were likely that 100% or even 90% of full frame DSLR users would migrate to the R line, it might make sense, but it's much more likely that Canon could lose those DSLR users either to Nikon or simply through lost sales opportunities as they keep their current DSLRs.
> 
> You are assuming that the cost of maintaining both lens lines is substantial and that there would be some significant savings in abandoning the EF line. I disagree. For the EF line the development costs have already been recovered. The cost of enhancements to the EF line are likely to be fairly small or transferable to RF lenses -- such as improved coatings or design changes that improve manufacturing efficiencies. Even relatively significant improvements, such as the weight reductions in big whites, may not be that costly in terms of development and would certainly be transferable between the EF and RF lines.
> 
> I expect that Canon does a cost-benefit analysis of every lens they produce, regardless of mount, and determines whether or not it will be profitable on its own.


In 1987 Canon introduced EF mount in a much stronger camera market - no cellphone cameras to deal with. They pretty quickly phased out the old FD mount lenses. 
There was pain as I can personally attest to, but it was ultimately the right move as they quickly took a large chunk of the market from Nikon.


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## slclick (Mar 24, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Unfortunately that doesn't resolve the one too many lens mount issue.


Not an issue for me, is it an issue for Canon?


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## neurorx (Mar 24, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> Yeah that's a bit confusing, it's not that much lower than the 5Ds.....I'm wondering if the R5 is going to be closer to 40 when we finally see it. Not everyone can use or wants that many pixels...


Yes I worry about the low light performance at greater than 40 MP (which for 8k video is the minimum size the sensor could be).


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## AEWest (Mar 24, 2020)

slclick said:


> Not an issue for me, is it an issue for Canon?


I would expect so. I would love to have as many choices as possible - DSLR and mirrorless. I am trying to read the tea leaves as best as possible and believe that EF is being phased out and am planning accordingly. 

Having 2 different lens mount lines in the late 80s was clearly not an option back then, it would be even less an option now.


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## unfocused (Mar 24, 2020)

AEWest said:


> ...Having 2 different lens mount lines in the late 80s was clearly not an option back then, it would be even less an option now.


Why? FD lenses could not be adapted to work seamlessly with the EF mount. Canon has four lens mounts today. EF lenses are the only lenses that work perfectly with all four mounts. So far, the only advantages that we have seen in the RF mount have been incremental improvements. Nothing nearly so sweeping as autofocus and IS. You've gone all in on RF. That's fine. But you shouldn't assume that your decision is universal to all Canon users or that Canon views the market in the same way you do.


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## jazzytune (Mar 24, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I think it will depend more on supply chain issues, rather than the postponement of any major events. The 5 series has never been an action camera. Much more popular with event and wedding photographers, as well as all around users. The Canon executive in the interview seemed to indicate that the announcements would not be delayed, but that interview was probably done before the recent global meltdown of the past week or so. Yeah, I agree they may delay the announcement, but I don't think the Olympics will have anything to do with it.


You're right about the supply chain and I thought about that as well while writing my comment. The Olympics being held in Japan, I'm sure that Canon was looking forward to that event for even more exposure. I understand that the official Sports camera and Canon's flagship camera body is the 1 Dx mark III. However, because of its size and announced specs, I think that the R5 will be very popular camera body for many pro photographers that will be there for photojournalism (all those "behind the scenes" captures). Anyway, I still think that even if there's limited lack of supplies and that the production can be done to introduce the R5 in July, I still think that the timing would be bad!


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## Danglin52 (Mar 24, 2020)

masterpix said:


> I just hope that they will make a 5D-V that will have similar features as well. Although it seems that the R system is taking over.



Unless you shoot sports or wildlife, why would you prefer a 5dV over a R5 assuming they had the same features and an updated EVF on the R5? The only other drawback of the R5 over a 5dV would be if you are not willing to shoot EF lenses with an adaptor, purchase RF lenses, or battery life. I shoot wildlife and I am curious to see how the OVF of the R5 stand up in field shooting (assuming it has the same weather resistance as the 5dIV). From what I am seeing so far, I am willing to replace my EF 24-70 f2.8 L II and 100-400 II assuming the 100-500 is f5.6 @ 400mm.


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## KeithBreazeal (Mar 24, 2020)

When I saw the shape of the viewfinder area, I immediately thought it was like the 5 series. Maybe it was meant to send that message- now confirmed.


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## Danglin52 (Mar 24, 2020)

unfocused said:


> What limitation? Mirrorless and DSLR are different formats. Each has it's strength and weaknesses. We have yet to see a mirrorless camera that can do everything a DSLR does, just as we have yet to see a DSLR that does everything a mirrorless does. Judging by other comments on this very thread, there remains lots of demand for a 5D V.
> 
> As far as the lens mount goes, Canon has repeatedly said the EF mount isn't going away. They have paused development of new lenses to concentrate on the RF mount, but a pause is just that, a pause. And, given the robust selection of EF lenses already available, there aren't a lot of holes in the lineup anyway.



A "pause" can mean a lot of things in the corporate world. They may never hit "play" again if mirrorless / RF lens sales take off and start to erode the EOS/EF line. They will go to a "maintenance" strategy which would involve releasing just enough updates to keep the customers paying but not necessarily trying to ramp up the volumes. This is especially true in a declining industry and as technology enables mirrorless to deliver some of the "unique" things on the DSLR line. They have to make the decision based on what each $1 of investment returns in sales. Canon has provided a pretty painless migration path for EF to RF with adaptors that work pretty well based on what I have seen and read. Time will tell.


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## AEWest (Mar 24, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Why? FD lenses could not be adapted to work seamlessly with the EF mount. Canon has four lens mounts today. EF lenses are the only lenses that work perfectly with all four mounts. So far, the only advantages that we have seen in the RF mount have been incremental improvements. Nothing nearly so sweeping as autofocus and IS. You've gone all in on RF. That's fine. But you shouldn't assume that your decision is universal to all Canon users or that Canon views the market in the same way you do.


Actually I haven't gone all in. I am still all EF. I am merely trying to see what the future holds and how best to respond to it.

I have no interest in telling others that my decision should be theirs - just presenting my opinion and the reasons behind it in this forum. Only Canon knows for sure.


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## padam (Mar 24, 2020)

Why the future's bright for DSLRs - Canon Europe


As mirrorless cameras continue to develop, do DSLRs have a future? Sports photographer Samo Vidic and Canon expert Mike Burnhill reveal where DSLRs still have the edge.




www.canon-europe.com





This is directly from Canon, maybe this will stop the BS about abandoning DSLRs.


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## Del Paso (Mar 24, 2020)

padam said:


> Why the future's bright for DSLRs - Canon Europe
> 
> 
> As mirrorless cameras continue to develop, do DSLRs have a future? Sports photographer Samo Vidic and Canon expert Mike Burnhill reveal where DSLRs still have the edge.
> ...


I hope it too...
Nothing beats a DSLR's viewfinder, but I agree that the EOS R has some advantages (sensor focusing etc...), which I really appreciate.
But for my very own kind of photography, the 5 DIV is my go-to camera, most of the time.
Yet, the R with the 24-105 is my EDC. The 2 concepts have a justification.


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## masterpix (Mar 24, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I myself couldn't imagine buying a new DSLR these days. And I like my Canon DSLR (for stills)!
> 
> If I bought a new DSLR I feel as though I would be buying the T90 (Canon's last non EOS SLR). By this I mean I would be buying into a dead mount and not getting the advantages of the new RF glass.
> 
> So if the 5d5 came out with virtually the exact same specs as the R5, it would have to be sold at a huge discount to reflect this major limitation.



EF glass is superb as is, and to be true, if there was a good converter, I would continue to use my FD glass as well. It happens that I am still using my FD200mm Macto with a converter to EF (without any optics in it) on my 7D, Canon glass is superb in any mount. I hope Canon listen to you and do sell the 5Dv with a huge discount, then I might buy two...


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## slclick (Mar 24, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I would expect so. I would love to have as many choices as possible - DSLR and mirrorless. I am trying to read the tea leaves as best as possible and believe that EF is being phased out and am planning accordingly.
> 
> Having 2 different lens mount lines in the late 80s was clearly not an option back then, it would be even less an option now.


Todays EF-RF ecosystem works together and very well I might add. This was not the experience with EOS and EF coming out.


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## BillB (Mar 24, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I shoot wildlife and I am curious to see how the OVF of the R5 stand up in field shooting (assuming it has the same weather resistance as the 5dIV). From what I am seeing so far, I am willing to replace my EF 24-70 f2.8 L II and 100-400 II assuming the 100-500 is f5.6 @ 400mm.



With the high fps rates talked about for the R5 and R6, I am wondering whether Canon is thinking that spray and pray bursts are part of the answer to EVF latency. Not elegant but....


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## SteveC (Mar 24, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> Yeah that's a bit confusing, it's not that much lower than the 5Ds.....I'm wondering if the R5 is going to be closer to 40 when we finally see it. Not everyone can use or wants that many pixels...



There's a lower limit; whatever the resolution is, it must be high enough to support 8K video or it won't meet that part of the spec.


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## ColinJR (Mar 24, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I would not be surprised to see Canon announce both the R5 and the 5DV at the same time. True it would be unusual for Canon to announce two bodies at once, but in this case it makes sense since they are looking more and more like different models of the same camera. Of course it would depend on how many features they share, but if they are essentially identical in major specs and retail for roughly the same price at introduction, it would make sense.


There was some speculation that, like when announced/released the 90D and M6 MkII at the same time, they would do exactly this—a 5D MkV along with the R5. I would argue that if they want really give the RF mount a kick in the pants, they shouldn't do this.


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## cayenne (Mar 24, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> Yeah that's a bit confusing, it's not that much lower than the 5Ds.....I'm wondering if the R5 is going to be closer to 40 when we finally see it. Not everyone can use or wants that many pixels...




In that case you may wish to set your sights on the R6 rather than the R5....

HTH


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## cayenne (Mar 24, 2020)

padam said:


> Why the future's bright for DSLRs - Canon Europe
> 
> 
> As mirrorless cameras continue to develop, do DSLRs have a future? Sports photographer Samo Vidic and Canon expert Mike Burnhill reveal where DSLRs still have the edge.
> ...




Well, they *did* give you a new DSLR...the new 1DX.....

Not sure if I'd lay money down on any major new ones. Maybe 1..I dunno. I'm guessing if nothing else, they may keep the 5D4 our longer and possibly do an improvement tweak or two on that, but IMHO...I don't see them putting out a lot of money on DSLRs going forward.

They said the EF lenses aren't going away...to me, means production will keep going as long at there's viable demand for them. But at some point, they're likely going all mirrorless at which point soon after....they'll likely slow and top EF production.

If nothing else, I don't see them pouring much $$ or effort into new EF technology....I believe that is going to be reserved for RF.

I think DSLRs will be available for a few years to come, but I don't see a lot of effort into upgrades to the existing lines....

Just my $0.02,

C


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## unfocused (Mar 24, 2020)

ColinJR said:


> There was some speculation that, like when announced/released the 90D and M6 MkII at the same time, they would do exactly this—a 5D MkV along with the R5. I would argue that if they want really give the RF mount a kick in the pants, they shouldn't do this.


Yeah, that's very possible, although one reason they may be hyping the R5 so much now is so that if they do a joint announcement, both cameras will get a lot of attention. I think we are in new territory as far as Camera announcements go, so we just have to wait and see what Canon does.


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## Act444 (Mar 24, 2020)

padam said:


> Why the future's bright for DSLRs - Canon Europe
> 
> 
> As mirrorless cameras continue to develop, do DSLRs have a future? Sports photographer Samo Vidic and Canon expert Mike Burnhill reveal where DSLRs still have the edge.
> ...



Interesting, thanks for sharing.

I was out with the RP on a spring shoot and got frustrated with the camera at one point because the AF point was locking onto a distant house rather than the branch right in front of the camera. Never had that type of issue with the 5D or similar DSLR...

The DSLR is still more versatile when it comes to AF. However, I'm willing to give the edge to MILC when it comes to AF _consistency..._


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## SteveC (Mar 24, 2020)

cayenne said:


> In that case you may wish to set your sights on the R6 rather than the R5....
> 
> HTH



But for many people, the R6 is just too low, it's actually fewer pixels than the model it appears to be set up as a successor to.

Personally, I'd be all over a 35-40 MP camera with about half of the features of the R5, but the R6 won't give me that, so I'll probably end up going overkill and getting the R5. I don't mind overkill; sometimes I grow into it--but the price delta might be HUGE.



cayenne said:


> Well, they *did* give you a new DSLR...the new 1DX.....
> 
> Not sure if I'd lay money down on any major new ones. Maybe 1..I dunno. I'm guessing if nothing else, they may keep the 5D4 our longer and possibly do an improvement tweak or two on that, but IMHO...I don't see them putting out a lot of money on DSLRs going forward.
> 
> ...




This sounds about right. Continue to market and support...but not develop. At least not until they've put out more RF stuff and even then only if they see significant demand. (And I'd expect them to leverage an existing other product where possible.)


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## Willbeen (Mar 24, 2020)

I


unfocused said:


> I think it will depend more on supply chain issues, rather than the postponement of any major events. The 5 series has never been an action camera. Much more popular with event and wedding photographers, as well as all around users. The Canon executive in the interview seemed to indicate that the announcements would not be delayed, but that interview was probably done before the recent global meltdown of the past week or so. Yeah, I agree they may delay the announcement, but I don't think the Olympics will have anything to do with it.


I'm relatively new to this forum and an owner of a 5D3. I deliberately skipped the 5D4 preferring to save the $ and wait for the next generation, which is nearly here and obviously a quantum leap. I'm intrigued with the 5R especially given the FPS (among other things) since I shoot a high percentage of action shots.

I am wondering about your comment about the 5 series never being an action camera. Can you please expound further?

Also please explain the advantages of the 5D series and R series that each possess over the other (other than the size and other obvious features). Since Canon is going to keep the 5D line going, your comment makes me wonder I should cool my jets on the 5R and wait for the 5D5. I appreciate your help with my due diligence.


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## Dequals61 (Mar 24, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I would not be surprised to see Canon announce both the R5 and the 5DV at the same time. True it would be unusual for Canon to announce two bodies at once, but in this case it makes sense since they are looking more and more like different models of the same camera. Of course it would depend on how many features they share, but if they are essentially identical in major specs and retail for roughly the same price at introduction, it would make sense.





masterpix said:


> I just hope that they will make a 5D-V that will have similar features as well. Although it seems that the R system is taking over.


I agree think the 5D series is dead.


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## Ozarker (Mar 24, 2020)

I don't believe there will ever be a 5D Mark V. First it was just a contraction in the camera market. Now the world economy is melting down on top of that. Canon has even tougher choices to make going forward. People will blame Canon, and say Canon has been lying, but these coming choices are now being forced and the changes at Canon are going to come at a much faster pace to deal with the evaporation of revenue that is happening. Companies with already tiny market share are going to pass away soon. Say goodbye to Pentax, Olympus, and a few others in the next year.


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## iheartcanon (Mar 24, 2020)

I did not think they would release a 5DV and always saw the R5 as the replacement. However the wording of this is strange.

If they were to release both, then perhaps the 5DV would maintain it's usual price range while the R5 (with extra features) could then be sold at a premium.


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## snappy604 (Mar 24, 2020)

slclick said:


> Not an issue for me, is it an issue for Canon?



I don't htink I'll buy RF glass for a while, but with adapters also not an issue for me. Seems like a win to me as the new lenses will have more capability once I get $


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## snappy604 (Mar 24, 2020)

BillB said:


> With the high fps rates talked about for the R5 and R6, I am wondering whether Canon is thinking that spray and pray bursts are part of the answer to EVF latency. Not elegant but....


or maybe they improved the EVF.. I haven't seen much commentary anywhere on it. The R was ok.. not something I'd jump at, but ok.. and that was rushed.


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## Dequals61 (Mar 24, 2020)

Dequals61 said:


> I agree think the 5D series is dead.





Maximilian said:


> Let's hope together!
> 
> This
> 
> ...


What would you to have to invest in again? You're just looking at camera vs. camera. If you have EF lenses the you love they work seamlessly on the R series cameras at least with the current releases and I can't see that changing.


unfocused said:


> I would not be surprised to see Canon announce both the R5 and the 5DV at the same time. True it would be unusual for Canon to announce two bodies at once, but in this case it makes sense since they are looking more and more like different models of the same camera. Of course it would depend on how many features they share, but if they are essentially identical in major specs and retail for roughly the same price at introduction, it would make sense.


I would be very surprised to even see a 5DV. But let's say we did, I would be even more surprised they wouldn't release them both at the same time. The R5 would be released first for Canon would love for all of its EF lens users to move over to the RF mount and they can't do that if they offer both at the same time. But with an R5 (or R6 or R whatever) Canon can sell you a camera now that allows any 5D, 6D or 7D series user to be able to use their existing glass with the added potential of eventually having them move to the new RF mount. If they came out with a 5DV at the same time they can only sell you a camera.


----------



## Dequals61 (Mar 24, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I would say that in an expanding camera market, there would be room for both DSLR and mirrorless. However, in a rapidly shrinking market it makes little sense to continue to support two different FF lens lines - they need to consolidate to RF so they can amortize RF development costs over as many lens sales as possible.
> 
> This won't happen if they continue to pump out new EF mount bodies. So that is why I see the 1dx3 as Canon's DSLR swan song.


Totally agree


----------



## jam05 (Mar 24, 2020)

Of course many of us have already figured that out already. Thus the number 5 etc.


----------



## Czardoom (Mar 24, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I would not be surprised to see Canon announce both the R5 and the 5DV at the same time. True it would be unusual for Canon to announce two bodies at once, but in this case it makes sense since they are looking more and more like different models of the same camera. Of course it would depend on how many features they share, but if they are essentially identical in major specs and retail for roughly the same price at introduction, it would make sense.



I would find this very unlikely. If they come out together, almost no one will buy both. If they release the R5 this year, some folks waiting for the 5DV will probably buy it, preferring not to wait to see when (and if) there is a 5DV. If they then do release the 5Dv a year later, I am sure that some folks who bought the R5 will then also buy the 5DV. Perhaps not many, but some double buys.


----------



## jam05 (Mar 24, 2020)

unfocused said:


> What limitation? Mirrorless and DSLR are different formats. Each has it's strength and weaknesses. We have yet to see a mirrorless camera that can do everything a DSLR does, just as we have yet to see a DSLR that does everything a mirrorless does. Judging by other comments on this very thread, there remains lots of demand for a 5D V.
> 
> As far as the lens mount goes, Canon has repeatedly said the EF mount isn't going away. They have paused development of new lenses to concentrate on the RF mount, but a pause is just that, a pause. And, given the robust selection of EF lenses already available, there aren't a lot of holes in the lineup anyway.


Of couse not going away. However the EF team isnt going to get the full R&D money that the EOS system is.


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## Czardoom (Mar 24, 2020)

Dequals61 said:


> I agree think the 5D series is dead.



I have no numbers, so it is just a guess, but I think the 5D series is probably Canon's best selling FF camera. Since (again, my opinion) the majority of the enthusiasm for mirrorless is among the gear-head population, I think Canon would not commit company suicide by abandoning DSLRs - which still outsell mirrorless worldwide, I believe, and I am fairly certain will still outsell mirrorless among professionals (who are less likely to jump on the new popular bandwagon).


----------



## Juangrande (Mar 24, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Source?


(*(


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## dominic_siu (Mar 25, 2020)

Even if Canon would continue to release DSLR but fact that new glasses are all with RF, EF lenses sure won’t be updated and eventually will be gone. Yes most of the EF L lenses are very good but RF lenses are far more superb that’s why I switched from 5D4 and all in to R system since it’s first release date.


----------



## Willbeen (Mar 25, 2020)

Willbeen said:


> I
> 
> I'm relatively new to this forum and an owner of a 5D3. I deliberately skipped the 5D4 preferring to save the $ and wait for the next generation, which is nearly here and obviously a quantum leap. I'm intrigued with the 5R especially given the FPS (among other things) since I shoot a high percentage of action shots.
> 
> ...



I think I just found the answer that I was looking for. The article from the pro photographers in Europe (which I had not seen when I sent my inquiry) fully explained the advantage of the DSLR focusing capability and the real-time action vs. the slightly delayed action of the R viewfinder. The only problem is that the article is not really comparing apples to apples. The EOS 1 series is clearly loaded up for a pro sports photographer...which neither the R series nor 5D5 series are geared towards.

Although the same argument about the mirror advantage is still applicable to the 5D series, the fair apples to apples test will be the specs 5D5 vs. the 5R...neither of which are on the market yet. I suspect that, similar to the 5D4 and R, the specs on the new versions will be very similar. And the lag time on the 5R viewfinder will be tightened to be closer to real time vs. its predecessor...advantage 5d5 but closer. Unless either camera includes a dedicated chip to auto-focus ala the 1 series, there will be no advantage to either model. 

So instead of jumping on the 5R I might just have to wait until both models are out and see what the jury of buyers has to say and my 5D3 may have to suffice for another year.


----------



## AEWest (Mar 25, 2020)

iheartcanon said:


> I did not think they would release a 5DV and always saw the R5 as the replacement. However the wording of this is strange.
> 
> If they were to release both, then perhaps the 5DV would maintain it's usual price range while the R5 (with extra features) could then be sold at a premium.


The biggest advantage of an R5 over 5D is that it will work with both RF and EF glass. So even if other specs were the same, R5 is future proof with regards to lenses. Therefore it should sell at a much higher price than 5D version. I suspect that when R5 is introduced, there will be big discounts on 5D4 offered by Canon.


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## WhereDoWeGoFrmHere (Mar 25, 2020)

I know far more wedding/event/family photographers still shooting DSLRs, be it Canon or Nikon, than mirrorless. I do not think Canon immediately abandons those users upon the release of their first real professional quality FF MILC. There will be plenty of early adopters of the R5, but many more won't make the jump yet. There is still a market for a 5DV while the R5 is proving itself in real world use.


----------



## Pixel (Mar 25, 2020)

So considering all that we know about the R5, where does the R1 take things to?


----------



## unfocused (Mar 25, 2020)

padam said:


> Why the future's bright for DSLRs - Canon Europe
> 
> 
> As mirrorless cameras continue to develop, do DSLRs have a future? Sports photographer Samo Vidic and Canon expert Mike Burnhill reveal where DSLRs still have the edge.
> ...


Thanks for sharing this. Of course, there is lots of confirmation bias for me, but it does confirm what I have found in shooting both mirrorless and DSLR side by side over the past nine months or so. I'm very interested in the new R5, but I can't see it totally replacing my 5D or 1Dx any time soon. Still going to end up with too many bodies. Sneaky Canon.


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## melgross (Mar 25, 2020)

With Photokina cancelled, there’s no longer a reason for manufacturers who were waiting to release specs, and the cameras themselves, to not do it whenever they like, before that date. I’m hoping Canon will see the light, and give us the full spec sheet soon.


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## Chris.Chapterten (Mar 25, 2020)

melgross said:


> With Photokina cancelled, there’s no longer a reason for manufacturers who were waiting to release specs, and the cameras themselves, to not do it whenever they like, before that date. I’m hoping Canon will see the light, and give us the full spec sheet soon.


Hopefully!


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## Chris.Chapterten (Mar 25, 2020)

Act444 said:


> Interesting, thanks for sharing.
> 
> I was out with the RP on a spring shoot and got frustrated with the camera at one point because the AF point was locking onto a distant house rather than the branch right in front of the camera. Never had that type of issue with the 5D or similar DSLR...
> 
> The DSLR is still more versatile when it comes to AF. However, I'm willing to give the edge to MILC when it comes to AF _consistency..._


I've had a similar experience with AF. In my case it was a more pronounced difference than just a slight edge. AF on the 5D IV was very hit and miss with an 80% hit rate on a good day (I use mostly outer, cross type points). In my use of the EOS R my hit rate has jumped to nearly 100%. Very happy to have made the switch and Eye AF makes my portrait and fashion work a breeze. I'll be lining up for the R5!


----------



## Maximilian (Mar 25, 2020)

Dequals61 said:


> What would you to have to invest in again? You're just looking at camera vs. camera. If you have EF lenses the you love they work seamlessly on the R series cameras at least with the current releases and I can't see that changing. ...


Of course you can still use all your EF lenses with the adaptor(s). 
But you will not gain the advantages of RF lenses (often smaller, often better IQ, better AF/IS communication, etc.)

And by this (your) thought why even change body?


----------



## mpb001 (Mar 25, 2020)

I do think that its great that a 5DV is coming, but for me, my 5DIV will probably be the last DSLR I buy. It is still a great camera and I like the 30 MP file sizes. I am looking forward to future R series cameras now, but I still do not care for very high MP and it seems that is the trend now. I will
evaluate whether the upcoming R6 meets my needs in the mirrorless realm.


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## mb66energy (Mar 25, 2020)

For me it seems that Canon wants to repeat the success with the 5D mark ii : A very good stills & video camera.

I wish them good luck and for me I wish a reasonable price around 3500 EUR ...!


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## Del Paso (Mar 25, 2020)

neurorx said:


> I know this has been meeting but are we still anticipating a 5DV this year? Or next? I don’t think I’ve seen anything other than mirrorless cameras mentioned in the coming future with respect to the R5, R6 and R1. I think I’d like an new 5D but I am wondering if the R5 going forward is going to be it.


Canon has always been good for a surprise, and they know, as a commercial company, that there is a real demand for a 5 DV.
A new FF DSLR would also sell a few more EF lenses, therefore, I expect a 5 DV !!!!!!!


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## londonxt (Mar 25, 2020)

Bloody hell I went 5D > 5D Mk II > 5D Mk III > R.... I feel so dirty now


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Mar 25, 2020)

londonxt said:


> Bloody hell I went 5D > 5D Mk II > 5D Mk III > R.... I feel so dirty now



I went 5D ii, 5D iii, 5D iv.. so much happier with the R.. don't feel dirty at all!


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Mar 25, 2020)

I can foresee that in my next camera refresh cycle...a 5Dmk5 and a Eos R5 is likely.


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## Ozarker (Mar 25, 2020)

Act444 said:


> Interesting, thanks for sharing.
> 
> I was out with the RP on a spring shoot and got frustrated with the camera at one point because the AF point was locking onto a distant house rather than the branch right in front of the camera. Never had that type of issue with the 5D or similar DSLR...
> 
> The DSLR is still more versatile when it comes to AF. However, I'm willing to give the edge to MILC when it comes to AF _consistency..._


Strange. I had the same exact problem with the 5D Mark III, many times.


----------



## Ozarker (Mar 25, 2020)

Maximilian said:


> Of course you can still use all your EF lenses with the adaptor(s).
> But you will not gain the advantages of RF lenses (often smaller, often better IQ, better AF/IS communication, etc.)
> 
> And by this (your) thought why even change body?


Eye-AF... it works with EF lenses adapted and is a big advantage.


----------



## bbasiaga (Mar 25, 2020)

Willbeen said:


> I think I just found the answer that I was looking for. The article from the pro photographers in Europe (which I had not seen when I sent my inquiry) fully explained the advantage of the DSLR focusing capability and the real-time action vs. the slightly delayed action of the R viewfinder. The only problem is that the article is not really comparing apples to apples. The EOS 1 series is clearly loaded up for a pro sports photographer...which neither the R series nor 5D5 series are geared towards.
> 
> Although the same argument about the mirror advantage is still applicable to the 5D series, the fair apples to apples test will be the specs 5D5 vs. the 5R...neither of which are on the market yet. I suspect that, similar to the 5D4 and R, the specs on the new versions will be very similar. And the lag time on the 5R viewfinder will be tightened to be closer to real time vs. its predecessor...advantage 5d5 but closer. Unless either camera includes a dedicated chip to auto-focus ala the 1 series, there will be no advantage to either model.
> 
> So instead of jumping on the 5R I might just have to wait until both models are out and see what the jury of buyers has to say and my 5D3 may have to suffice for another year.



There is another thing to consider here. I am also a 5D3 owner, and i can say the frame rate is the big limitation, aside from AF and EVF issues. Shooting soccer and martial arts, I've learned the 6fps (at least I think that's what we have on the 5D3) isn't really ideal. If you look at the 1D series, or even the 7D which is the crop action camera, you have gotten double that, which would be much better. So with the R series camera you're getting up to 20FPS. I can only imagine how nice that will be. But of course the limitation is the EFV delay, at least at this point in time. The R5 is supposed to have some killer EVF, so maybe that has mostly been solved? We will see. But it will eventually be solved. Until then we can only compensate with technique. So you'll have to anticipate a bit and hit the shutter slightly early, grab a burst of 20 shots to get what you want. The reality is even in a DSLR if you've waited until you see what you want to capture to hit the shutter, you missed it anyway (there is 1/3 of a second minimum delay between your finger and your brain, plus the mechanical action of your camera). So shooting R5 vs 5D will require a different technique, but not a totally alien one. 

I also find it amusing, that a few months ago the theme around here was Canon being too slow in to mirrorless, too slow to 'give up on EOS'...and now so many people speculating both will live forever! Just one of those funny things, not good or bad. My opinion is that it is only a matter of time before technology advances and/or technique catches up and the mirrorless does as well as the DSLR. At that point, we will see the retirement of the EF mount. I suspect that will be within a 2-4 years. Just long enough for them to prove to the DSLR users that they can upgrade without losing the functionality they covet. 

-Brian


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## mcfrlnd (Mar 25, 2020)

Encouraging news!
Hoping for a summer/early fall release.


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## Nodarsej1961 (Mar 25, 2020)

Jumping in late as I understand this camera is off to manufacturing. I just saw an image (see attached) of the back of the R5 and something bugged me regarding the ergonomic design. 

Why would they put the *Play button* next to the *Trash button*!!! 
I don't know about others, but when I hit the *Play button*, usually the next thing I do is hit the *Magnification button* to check out focus point on the image. So having the Play and Mag buttons next to each other to me make more sense, but what do I know. I would be curious as to what other think. Anybody knows if the buttons functions are assignable.


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## dominic_siu (Mar 25, 2020)

londonxt said:


> Bloody hell I went 5D > 5D Mk II > 5D Mk III > R.... I feel so dirty now


For me: 350D->5D2->5D4->R


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## ildyria (Mar 25, 2020)

dominic_siu said:


> For me: 350D->5D2->5D4->R


For me: m50 -> R 



Nodarsej1961 said:


> Why would they put the *Play button* next to the *Trash button*!!!
> I don't know about others, but when I hit the *Play button*, usually the next thing I do is hit the *Magnification button* to check out focus point on the image. So having the Play and Mag buttons next to each other to me make more sense, but what do I know. I would be curious as to what other think. Anybody knows if the buttons functions are assignable.
> 
> View attachment 189403



I'm using my R in ballroom competitions, I have about 75% rejection rate --due to framing, focusing or timing (you want your picture to be on the beat or at the lowest point of a contracheck - throwaway Oversway.

As a result I have a lot of pictures which I can quickly determine without zooming if they are "okay" or not. I don't mean they are good, perfectly in focus etc, I am just doing a quick scan & delete.

With my R, *play* & *delete* are close by. I usually do *play *during the breaks between the heats. Then I often do *Delete *- *Right* -* Ok *so I don't have to do it in Lightroom. So it is quite convenient that the buttons are close together.

If I need to zoom, then *** and use the index wheel or directly on the screen with pinch & spread.

So as opposed to you, I think this is actually pretty good ergonomic for users like me in mind. However I would not be worried. I think you can re map the buttons as you see fit.


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## cayenne (Mar 25, 2020)

ildyria said:


> For me: m50 -> R
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting...I never delete anything in camera.....

I can only think of once I did, I'd put in the wrong card at the start of a day shooting a concert, was before any bands hit the stage....I hit play looking to confirm I had a card I could format....and saw it had some things I needed to keep for whatever reason...I went through and deleted all the other things since I couldn't format the card without losing some things I needed.

It was a snafu situation, not my usual one...but other than that I never delete in camera, I only format in camera.

That likely was back before I had as many cards as I do now, but anyway....it's morning, I"m rambling.

carry on...


C


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## Danglin52 (Mar 25, 2020)

BillB said:


> With the high fps rates talked about for the R5 and R6, I am wondering whether Canon is thinking that spray and pray bursts are part of the answer to EVF latency. Not elegant but....



There is that approach and you can always frame a little wider (if possible) to leave some cropping room around the image to help with composition. I tested an R at the US Open Tennis last year (spectator) and was able to capture most of that action as a wanted even before the big AF upgrade. While more of a challenge than with a DSLR, I was able to get the ball on the racket if I really focused and anticipated. I am sure it would be MUCH harder trying to capture birds. A faster refresh rate on the R5 OVF should definitely help. I believe some of the Canon material mentioned wildlife, which would require a faster sensor readout and OVF refresh rate. 

I just want to see the full announcements with specifications. 

David


----------



## ildyria (Mar 25, 2020)

cayenne said:


> Interesting...I never delete anything in camera.....



Over a single day dance competition, I usually take between 1500~3000 to sometimes 5000 pictures (when really good couples are on the floor). Even if you shoot by small burst of 3, the number increases really quickly. So you can see that delete in camera is a life saver for me as it helps me reduce the workload later.


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## VICYASA (Mar 25, 2020)

Sp the pricing will be... ? Lets hear it folks... ______________


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## VICYASA (Mar 25, 2020)

This camera, catered to the video people and not so much the still photogs?


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## koenkooi (Mar 25, 2020)

ildyria said:


> For me: m50 -> R
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I do something similar when taking a lot of macro photos outside, reviewing them in the EVF works quite well, you don't have to shift position. The downside of this is that when switching from my RP to the M6II the button next to 'Play' is not 'Delete', but 'Menu'.


----------



## -pekr- (Mar 25, 2020)

DBounce said:


> $3995... they will be available in only limited quantities initially.



Yes, first few batches will go to Sony, they will rebrand it under their A7R series, claim finally fixing the colors and ergonomics and call it a day


----------



## Nodarsej1961 (Mar 25, 2020)

It has to be really poor image for me to delete in camera, so I rarely do it. I can see where *pinch/spread* is a game changer that could render the *Mag button* a thing of the past. My current camera (7D MII) doesn't support pinch/spread, so I do depend on the Mag button more to check my focus.

I really want this camera. I'm praying to the camera Gods to have the R5 priced no more then $3K... maybe $3.2K.


----------



## ildyria (Mar 25, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> when switching from my RP to the M6II the button next to 'Play' is not 'Delete', but 'Menu'.


I literally had the same feeling when I sometimes switch from my R to my Kiss M (m50).  Muscle memory can be a b*tch.


----------



## Deleted member 68328 (Mar 25, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> EOS 5D Mark V DSLR. While I cannot confirm anything, I do believe it is coming.



That's all I need to know and wanted.


----------



## AdmiralFwiffo (Mar 25, 2020)

IMHO: It's foolish to continue to invest significantly in DSLRs. As much effort as possible must be invested in cultivating a new generation of photographers - people who grew up in a 100% mobile world, but want something better than their cell phone for photography and video.

Even the current generation of MILCs is deficient relative to cell phones in features that matter to people under 40. They should be able to post to TikTok from the camera. Telling them to use a DSLR is like telling them to use a typewriter.


----------



## Architect1776 (Mar 25, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



The R5 is a step up from the 5D but this is reassuring we can anticipate a R1 some time. 
That should be an interesting piece of equipment considering what the R5 does.
Now bring the R series with a model to match the price point of the XXD cameras.


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## AEWest (Mar 25, 2020)

Maximilian said:


> Of course you can still use all your EF lenses with the adaptor(s).
> But you will not gain the advantages of RF lenses (often smaller, often better IQ, better AF/IS communication, etc.)
> 
> And by this (your) thought why even change body?


For many it will be a process to switch over due to cost. Start with an RF body while using EF lenses and phase in the RF lenses over time as funds permit.


----------



## SteveC (Mar 25, 2020)

AEWest said:


> For many it will be a process to switch over due to cost. Start with an RF body while using EF lenses and phase in the RF lenses over time as funds permit.



That's pretty much how it will be with me. I'll PROBABLY (price and finance dependent) buy an R5 with some sort of kit lens. Meanwhile, I have some EF lenses I bought in anticipation of going full frame.

Up to now I've only owned APS-C bodies--a number of EF-S lenses and of course now dedicated M series lenses. About a year ago I imposed a rule on myself--future lenses would be EF or EF-M only, no EF-S; at least the EF lenses will continue to be useful with either my M or R cameras.

(Yes, I know EF-S lenses will work on RF bodies, but if the RF is gonna crop them, I might as well stick them on my EOS-M body anyway.)


----------



## -pekr- (Mar 25, 2020)

Pixel said:


> So considering all that we know about the R5, where does the R1 take things to?



Down to 20mpx


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## cpsico (Mar 25, 2020)

Is anyone else start to suspect this camera is going to be way north of the price of 3499 exciting camera but it’s going to cost big time!


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## schiueva (Mar 25, 2020)

it’s great that they will have a 5DV. Just put the R5 sensor to the 5D4 body. I believe many people like me have the whole line of EF lens and it’s very difficult to switch.


----------



## AEWest (Mar 25, 2020)

schiueva said:


> it’s great that they will have a 5DV. Just put the R5 sensor to the 5D4 body. I believe many people like me have the whole line of EF lens and it’s very difficult to switch.


I haven't heard that the 5DV has been confirmed.


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## schiueva (Mar 25, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I haven't heard that the 5DV has been confirmed.


That’s my wish list, lol
I think if the market need one, they will make one because EF mount is still the most popular mount.


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## jedy (Mar 25, 2020)

There’s a significant lack of information to keep everyone guessing. The R5 is a 5D mirrorless, no word on the price or the full specs to know just how expensive and good it is. The other issue, plenty of Canon users do seem reluctant right now to switch to mirrorless so will Canon produce another DSLR 5D to keep them happy and at what point will they go fully into mirrorless? It would also be interesting to know how Canon will be able to sustain so many different systems (EF, EF-S, EF-M, RF).


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## cayenne (Mar 25, 2020)

AEWest said:


> For many it will be a process to switch over due to cost. Start with an RF body while using EF lenses and phase in the RF lenses over time as funds permit.



I'll look into trying something like I did with my 5D3....

Maybe buy from somewhere like Crutchfield...a place that gives "reward points"...buy the body there. And then use the rewards points for credit towards first RF lens maybe later, especially if they have a sale.

I got my first 70-200 2.8L lens for what was a steal at the time that way.

C


----------



## AccipiterQ (Mar 25, 2020)

I don't get why they can't do R6 type resolution with R5 type of photographic features. Wouldn't that satisfy everyone? 45 MP is a LOT of real estate, and probably too much for a lot of folks, why not do a couple MP bump over the 5DIV? You could then have your 70 or 80MP or whatever 5DRs....you'd have enough differentiation there.


----------



## Phil (Mar 25, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I myself couldn't imagine buying a new DSLR these days. And I like my Canon DSLR (for stills)!
> 
> If I bought a new DSLR I feel as though I would be buying the T90 (Canon's last non EOS SLR). By this I mean I would be buying into a dead mount and not getting the advantages of the new RF glass.
> 
> So if the 5d5 came out with virtually the exact same specs as the R5, it would have to be sold at a huge discount to reflect this major limitation.



I love a good T90 reference!


----------



## navastronia (Mar 25, 2020)

schiueva said:


> it’s great that they will have a 5DV. Just put the R5 sensor to the 5D4 body. I believe many people like me have the whole line of EF lens and it’s very difficult to switch.



Don't you mean "it's extremely easy to switch?" There's a $95 adapter that works flawlessly with all EF glass. The only issue is that the adapter isn't weather sealed, but assuming you don't shoot in rain, it's like . . . basically faultless.


----------



## schiueva (Mar 25, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Don't you mean "it's extremely easy to switch?" There's a $95 adapter that works flawlessly with all EF glass. The only issue is that the adapter isn't weather sealed, but assuming you don't shoot in rain, it's like . . . basically faultless.


I know there is adapter and it doesn’t work well for me, of coz the weather seal problem and front heavy. Switching mean sold all the EF lens to the RF mount. Not just adapting.


----------



## navastronia (Mar 26, 2020)

schiueva said:


> I know there is adapter and it doesn’t work well for me, of coz the weather seal problem and front heavy. Switching mean sold all the EF lens to the RF mount. Not just adapting.



OK, fair enough. It works great for most people, but I can understand if your use is different.


----------



## EverydayPhotographer (Mar 26, 2020)

How long do we realistically think it will be before this and the R6 make it to market? The world is at practically a standstill right now, the supply chain is hosed, the global economy is in the toilet, and the signature event driving a lot of the releases - Japan’s 2020 olympics - is on hold for around a year. Delays are inevitable. Marketing strategy to stretch them even longer is sensible.

I have been thinking about buying an R to complete my move into full frame, especially with the decent pricing carrying over from Christmas. I know there are lots of differences between it and the R5, but the biggest difference I can think of is the photos I’d take between R purchase and when the R5 drops and I could save up enough to actually purchase. 

Anyone else floating in a similar boat? What are your thoughts?

Jody


----------



## MORphoto.net (Mar 26, 2020)

unfocused said:


> What limitation? Mirrorless and DSLR are different formats. Each has it's strength and weaknesses. We have yet to see a mirrorless camera that can do everything a DSLR does, just as we have yet to see a DSLR that does everything a mirrorless does. Judging by other comments on this very thread, there remains lots of demand for a 5D V.
> 
> As far as the lens mount goes, Canon has repeatedly said the EF mount isn't going away. They have paused development of new lenses to concentrate on the RF mount, but a pause is just that, a pause. And, given the robust selection of EF lenses already available, there aren't a lot of holes in the lineup anyway.


Just a quick question, what can a DSLR do that a mirrorless camera can't? I'm not trying to stir up a fight, I just have no idea what strength a DSLR has over mirrorless these days. jk


----------



## schiueva (Mar 26, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I would say that in an expanding camera market, there would be room for both DSLR and mirrorless. However, in a rapidly shrinking market it makes little sense to continue to support two different FF lens lines - they need to consolidate to RF so they can amortize RF development costs over as many lens sales as possible.
> 
> This won't happen if they continue to pump out new EF mount bodies. So that is why I see the 1dx3 as Canon's DSLR swan song.



they might stop developing new EF lens, but putting new mirrorless sensor into Dslr body isn’t developing. See Nikon did that to their new dslr putting the Z6 sensor in it.


----------



## SteveC (Mar 26, 2020)

schiueva said:


> they might stop developing new EF lens, but putting new mirrorless sensor into Dslr body isn’t developing. See Nikon did that to their new dslr putting the Z6 sensor in it.



They'd also have to put in the new processors, which are probably NOT the exact same size and connections. The sensor itself probably has different connections. And, very likely they will have to rearrange things inside the camera to avoid heat issues (I thought I read somewhere that that is what they did to avoid having to put a fan in the R5--radically rearrange things). If even one thing is a different size than the other, or in a different location, then you DO have to do development and testing.

Then you have to alter the menus. You cant use the 5D menus, because they presume a different sensor; you cant use the R5 menus, because they presume mirrorless. That's software development work. More development.


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## unfocused (Mar 26, 2020)

MORphoto.net said:


> Just a quick question, what can a DSLR do that a mirrorless camera can't? I'm not trying to stir up a fight, I just have no idea what strength a DSLR has over mirrorless these days. jk


No fight. 

There is a lag time between the action and what you see in the viewfinder with a mirrorless. With DSLR it's the speed of light. Mirrorless uses more battery power. I needed a battery grip with my R. I don't use one with my 5DIV. Mirrorless takes longer to wake up after going to sleep. Personally, I've found the mirrorless autofocus hunts much more and goes wildly out of focus under certain circumstances. Canon says that autofocus is more responsive on DSLRs than mirrorless. It feels that way to me too. Some people don't like the look of the electronic viewfinder. It doesn't really bother me, although under certain lighting conditions I've noticed that the viewfinder doesn't give an accurate reflection of the camera capture (for example, under harsh stage lighting). 

You didn't ask, but what I find great about mirrorless is the truly silent shutter, the selection of focus points with your thumb and the fact that you can pick a focus point across the entire frame, which I think really improves my composition.


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## AEWest (Mar 26, 2020)

WhereDoWeGoFrmHere said:


> I know far more wedding/event/family photographers still shooting DSLRs, be it Canon or Nikon, than mirrorless. I do not think Canon immediately abandons those users upon the release of their first real professional quality FF MILC. There will be plenty of early adopters of the R5, but many more won't make the jump yet. There is still a market for a 5DV while the R5 is proving itself in real world use.


Of course there are far more DSLR shooters than mirrorless in event photography - it is the mature market vs new mirrorless. It takes time to change. Coupled with Canon's meh offerings to date in mirrorless, it is understandable that market penetration has not yet occurred. Canon is hoping to change that with the R5.


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## unfocused (Mar 26, 2020)

EverydayPhotographer said:


> How long do we realistically think it will be before this and the R6 make it to market? The world is at practically a standstill right now, the supply chain is hosed, the global economy is in the toilet, and the signature event driving a lot of the releases - Japan’s 2020 olympics - is on hold for around a year. Delays are inevitable. Marketing strategy to stretch them even longer is sensible.
> 
> I have been thinking about buying an R to complete my move into full frame, especially with the decent pricing carrying over from Christmas. I know there are lots of differences between it and the R5, but the biggest difference I can think of is the photos I’d take between R purchase and when the R5 drops and I could save up enough to actually purchase.
> 
> ...


I can heartily recommend the R. I suspect most of the people who dismiss it have never used it. See my post above to see the disadvantages. Basically, it's not my first or even second or third choice for sports or fast action. It's serviceable for birds in flight, but you need a tolerance for a lower keeper rate. Fantastic for portraiture. Great as an all-around body. If you are in the U.S. and act quickly, you can get a refurbished with 24-105 for under $2,200 or body only for under $1,500. But a better deal for body only may be the Canon Price Watch street price for $1,600 since the refurbished models don't include an adapter.


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## unfocused (Mar 26, 2020)

AEWest said:


> ...Coupled with Canon's meh offerings to date in mirrorless...



Seriously? The R is hardly "meh"


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## derpderp (Mar 26, 2020)

unfocused said:


> What limitation? Mirrorless and DSLR are different formats. Each has it's strength and weaknesses. We have yet to see a mirrorless camera that can do everything a DSLR does, just as we have yet to see a DSLR that does everything a mirrorless does. Judging by other comments on this very thread, there remains lots of demand for a 5D V.
> 
> As far as the lens mount goes, Canon has repeatedly said the EF mount isn't going away. They have paused development of new lenses to concentrate on the RF mount, but a pause is just that, a pause. And, given the robust selection of EF lenses already available, there aren't a lot of holes in the lineup anyway.



What exactly can a DSLR do that a mirrorless camera can't?


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## AEWest (Mar 26, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Seriously? The R is hardly "meh"


You and I may think that, but it hasn't exactly set the market on fire since it was introduced...no IBIS, early on autofocus issues and unusual ergonomics (touchbar) alienated many.


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## SteveC (Mar 26, 2020)

derpderp said:


> What exactly can a DSLR do that a mirrorless camera can't?



We just had this conversation five replies above your question; please look there.


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## WhereDoWeGoFrmHere (Mar 26, 2020)

The R came w/ one card slot and a higher price point than the A7, that alone was a huge turn off. For a long time 5D line user it was a disappointment.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 26, 2020)

derpderp said:


> What exactly can a DSLR do that a mirrorless camera can't?


Two killer features for me, zero viewfinder lag and realistic representation of what I can see.

Personally I don’t like looking through an EVF for hours and when you do fast panning the lag just upsets my photo mojo, and I hate the lack of DR in EVF’s, my eyesight, though not brilliant, is way better than an EVF, I don’t want or need WYSIWYG I want and need reality and a brain to decide what I want to prioritize.

so what can you mirrorless do that cameras like the 1DX III can’t do?


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## derpderp (Mar 26, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Two killer features for me, zero viewfinder lag and realistic representation of what I can see.
> 
> Personally I don’t like looking through an EVF for hours and when you do fast panning the lag just upsets my photo mojo, and I hate the lack of DR in EVF’s, my eyesight, though not brilliant, is way better than an EVF, I don’t want or need WYSIWYG I want and need reality and a brain to decide what I want to prioritize.
> 
> so what can you mirrorless do that cameras like the 1DX III can’t do?



Interesting. I must preface my response that I started my photography journey with mirrorless cameras (and smartphones ), so I do not have extensive experience with DSLRs unlike some (or perhaps a majority) of the folks here. 

I enjoy the fact that the EVF lets me see the exact representation of the image which will be produced by the camera. I enjoy the truly silent shooting mode of mirrorless cameras. I enjoy the fact I can use the mirrorless camera like a smartphone - u can focus anywhere across the entire sensor, and just touch and drag focus points on the touch screen. I haven't experienced 'viewfinger lag' as you have mentioned. Maybe that's just me.

I see the 1DXIII as a semi-mirrorless camera actually, since it offers alot of the features of mirrorless cameras in its 'live view' mode.


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## AEWest (Mar 26, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Two killer features for me, zero viewfinder lag and realistic representation of what I can see.
> 
> Personally I don’t like looking through an EVF for hours and when you do fast panning the lag just upsets my photo mojo, and I hate the lack of DR in EVF’s, my eyesight, though not brilliant, is way better than an EVF, I don’t want or need WYSIWYG I want and need reality and a brain to decide what I want to prioritize.
> 
> so what can you mirrorless do that cameras like the 1DX III can’t do?


IBIS and superior RF lenses are two examples right off the bat...


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## Maximilian (Mar 26, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Eye-AF... it works with EF lenses adapted and is a big advantage.


I know. Eye-AF and no AFMA and a little bit smaller equipment would be the #1 features getting me into R system.
But shooting sports, action, wildlife or BIF with the existing EVF are a horror (to me). 
This will become better. But will it already with the R5? Don't think so. 
So why change?


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## Maximilian (Mar 26, 2020)

AEWest said:


> For many it will be a process to switch over due to cost. Start with an RF body while using EF lenses and phase in the RF lenses over time as funds permit.


Once again:
I know the advantages of R system (Eye-AF, no AFMA, a little bit smaller...)
But shooting sports, action, wildlife or BIF with the existing EVF are a horror (to me).
This will become better. But will it already with the R5? Don't think so.
So why change (now)?


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## Cryhavoc (Mar 26, 2020)

dominic_siu said:


> For me: 350D->5D2->5D4->R


For me, 2ti to the R no joke. That 2ti with the magic lantern firmware was all I needed at the time.


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## Cryhavoc (Mar 26, 2020)

VICYASA said:


> Sp the pricing will be... ? Lets hear it folks... ______________



$3499 body only. $4199 with the RF 24-105
1 Free 64mb cfexpress card during the initial release.

By the holiday season the following will happen.

The R will drop to $1499 body only. (Local dealer is selling them currently for $1699 now)

RP will drop to $799 and be the cheapest FF mirrorless on the market to go along with more consumerist versions of RF lenses due out.

No source. Just a hunch that Canon wants to win.


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## derpderp (Mar 26, 2020)

Cryhavoc said:


> $3499 body only. $4199 with the RF 24-105
> 1 Free 64mb cfexpress card during the initial release.
> 
> By the holiday season the following will happen.
> ...



Here just take my damn money!!


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## SecureGSM (Mar 26, 2020)

derpderp said:


> Interesting. I must preface my response that I started my photography journey with mirrorless cameras (and smartphones ), so I do not have extensive experience with DSLRs unlike some (or perhaps a majority) of the folks here.
> 
> I enjoy the fact that the EVF lets me see the exact representation of the image which will be produced by the camera. I enjoy the truly silent shooting mode of mirrorless cameras. I enjoy the fact I can use the mirrorless camera like a smartphone - u can focus anywhere across the entire sensor, and just touch and drag focus points on the touch screen. I haven't experienced 'viewfinger lag' as you have mentioned. Maybe that's just me.
> 
> I see the 1DXIII as a semi-mirrorless camera actually, since it offers alot of the features of mirrorless cameras in its 'live view' mode.



++++ I enjoy the fact that the EVF lets me see the exact representation of the image which will be produced by the camera.

A.M.: do you use strobes or flash much?


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## derpderp (Mar 26, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> ++++ I enjoy the fact that the EVF lets me see the exact representation of the image which will be produced by the camera.
> 
> A.M.: do you use strobes or flash much?



Was that a question for me? I don't use flash or strobes much. I do mostly travel photography or street photography.


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## Maximilian (Mar 26, 2020)

Cryhavoc said:


> $3499 body only. $4199 with the RF 24-105
> 1 Free 64mb cfexpress card during the initial release.
> ...


Let's hope for something like that. 
My gut feeling tells me, that'll be at leat $200 north.


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## SecureGSM (Mar 26, 2020)

derpderp said:


> Was that a question for me? I don't use flash or strobes much. I do mostly travel photography or street photography.


yes, a rhetorical question, I suppose. For someone who use strobes or flash extensively, EVF does not let see the exact representation of the image which will be produced by the camera.


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## Chris.Chapterten (Mar 26, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> yes, a rhetorical question, I suppose. For someone who use strobes or flash extensively, EVF does not let see the exact representation of the image which will be produced by the camera.



But neither does an OVF... and if you use proportional modelling lights than the EVF will give some indicatiom


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## AEWest (Mar 26, 2020)

Maximilian said:


> I know. Eye-AF and no AFMA and a little bit smaller equipment would be the #1 features getting me into R system.
> But shooting sports, action, wildlife or BIF with the existing EVF are a horror (to me).
> This will become better. But will it already with the R5? Don't think so.
> So why change?


Your negative experiences with EVF are not shared by everyone. I know some Sony users who would never go back to OVF. I like OVF but it is not a dealbreaker for me.


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## SUNDOG04 (Mar 26, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I can heartily recommend the R. I suspect most of the people who dismiss it have never used it. See my post above to see the disadvantages. Basically, it's not my first or even second or third choice for sports or fast action. It's serviceable for birds in flight, but you need a tolerance for a lower keeper rate. Fantastic for portraiture. Great as an all-around body. If you are in the U.S. and act quickly, you can get a refurbished with 24-105 for under $2,200 or body only for under $1,500. But a better deal for body only may be the Canon Price Watch street price for $1,600 since the refurbished models don't include an adapter.


That is good advice. Never used a mirrorless. My 6D serves me fine, but f it craps out, I think I would likely go to mirrorless and the R model would surely serve me fine for my landscspe photography. Retired, on a fixed income, so have to limit spending. I recall the disappointment when the 6D was released. While I feel it is dumbed-down a bit more than necessary, I believe it has sold well and proven itself a good camera. The R is proving also to be very good. Perhaps those putting down mirrorless should rent one and see what they are like. I may eventually do that.


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## SecureGSM (Mar 26, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> But neither does an OVF... and if you use proportional modelling lights than the EVF will give some indication


a proportional modelling light..okaaaay..  I do events mostly.. my typical lighting is utterly disproportional with flash either bouncing from what I can or flash bender XL Pro on camera. on rare occasion, when I have a live light stand - off camera flash into a 50cm soft box handheld.
I will get around this EVF drama eventually. depends on how good R5 EVF implementation is. for now, I am good with a pair of 5D4's


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## Maximilian (Mar 26, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Your negative experiences with EVF are not shared by everyone. ...


Can you please accept that it is not working for me and that I am arguing from my perspective?

How many sports/action photogs do you know, that prefer EVF over OVF today? (No matter what brand)

It might surely does work even better for portrait or available light in night scenes. But that is not my main subject.
But a hammer isn't the right tool to unscrew, is it?


----------



## derpderp (Mar 26, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> yes, a rhetorical question, I suppose. For someone who use strobes or flash extensively, EVF does not let see the exact representation of the image which will be produced by the camera.



I'll have to defer to your experience with flashes and strobes. Perhaps because of our different styles of photography, we have different needs. But I can only speak from my experience, which is that I'm quite pleased with the EVF for what I do 

Frankly, I'd feel a little lost with an OVF.


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## Starting out EOS R (Mar 26, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


So, decisions decisions, I pretty much want the R5 and will trade in my R. I have a price for trade in based against buying the R5 but the decision is, as we're all in lockdown for the next month or so and its not likely I'll be using my R for any serious work in a while, do I trade it in now and get the current price and be without the R until the R5 is released, or, wait until the R5 is released and then trade in, knowing that the trade in price is likely to drop?? I can live without the R for a month or so as we're in lock down but I really cant decide what canon will do, delay the launch until supplies are back to normal which could be September or even later, or release as originally planned in July with pre orders probably in May or June. Any sensible thoughts people??


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## privatebydesign (Mar 26, 2020)

AEWest said:


> IBIS and superior RF lenses are two examples right off the bat...


My needs are well catered for with the IS lens selection in the EF range so I have no need for IBIS, I wouldn’t not use it if I had it, but I certainly don’t need it.

Show me a single image these precious and expensive RF lenses can take that my old school EF lenses can’t. Sure the RF designs are wonderful, but I haven’t seen a single image that makes me think I couldn’t have taken that with an EF camera.


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## AEWest (Mar 26, 2020)

Maximilian said:


> Can you please accept that it is not working for me and that I am arguing from my perspective?
> 
> How many sports/action photogs do you know, that prefer EVF over OVF today? (No matter what brand)
> 
> ...


You had asked "why change", I did not know you were talking specifically about your needs, it could have been a general question for all photographers. That is the shortcoming with these forums - very little room for explaining context.


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## MORphoto.net (Mar 26, 2020)

unfocused said:


> No fight.
> 
> There is a lag time between the action and what you see in the viewfinder with a mirrorless. With DSLR it's the speed of light. Mirrorless uses more battery power. I needed a battery grip with my R. I don't use one with my 5DIV. Mirrorless takes longer to wake up after going to sleep. Personally, I've found the mirrorless autofocus hunts much more and goes wildly out of focus under certain circumstances. Canon says that autofocus is more responsive on DSLRs than mirrorless. It feels that way to me too. Some people don't like the look of the electronic viewfinder. It doesn't really bother me, although under certain lighting conditions I've noticed that the viewfinder doesn't give an accurate reflection of the camera capture (for example, under harsh stage lighting).
> 
> You didn't ask, but what I find great about mirrorless is the truly silent shutter, the selection of focus points with your thumb and the fact that you can pick a focus point across the entire frame, which I think really improves my composition.


I've never noticed viewfinder lag. I guess technically there must be, but I can't detect it. At any rate, I'm with you on the battery life! Huge difference. Thanks for the detailed reply!


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## AEWest (Mar 26, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> My needs are well catered for with the IS lens selection in the EF range so I have no need for IBIS, I wouldn’t not use it if I had it, but I certainly don’t need it.
> 
> Show me a single image these precious and expensive RF lenses can take that my old school EF lenses can’t. Sure the RF designs are wonderful, but I haven’t seen a single image that makes me think I couldn’t have taken that with an EF camera.


You had specifically asked what a mirrorless camera (RF mount) could do that a 1dx3 (i.e. EF mount) couldn't. I gave two examples - IBIS and RF lenses.

Whether these features are unnecessary for your work is a separate matter that only you could answer.

I myself will eventually get the new compact 70-200 RF lens due to to its size and weight advantages. But first I must buy an RF mount camera!


----------



## MORphoto.net (Mar 26, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> So, decisions decisions, I pretty much want the R5 and will trade in my R. I have a price for trade in based against buying the R5 but the decision is, as we're all in lockdown for the next month or so and its not likely I'll be using my R for any serious work in a while, do I trade it in now and get the current price and be without the R until the R5 is released, or, wait until the R5 is released and then trade in, knowing that the trade in price is likely to drop?? I can live without the R for a month or so as we're in lock down but I really cant decide what canon will do, delay the launch until supplies are back to normal which could be September or even later, or release as originally planned in July with pre orders probably in May or June. Any sensible thoughts people??


I'm personally not too worried about the value of the original R dropping when the R5 is released. The R5 development has been announced so everyone already knows it is just around the corner. They are two very different price points as well. You can already find a new R for $1500ish if you look hard enough, and the R5 will probably be around $3500. Long ago, I sold my original 24-70 2.8 lens when the version 2 development was announced. The price was dropping so I thought I better sell sooner than later. I got about $900 for it at the time. When the official announcement with price came out, it was so much more expensive than the original that the value went up for the old one. I could have gotten $1200 - $1300 for it if I waited. Not sure this story has anything to do with the current decision you are trying to make, but all this typing makes for some great "time killing" while I'm stuck at home.


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## Maximilian (Mar 26, 2020)

AEWest said:


> You had asked "why change", I did not know you were talking specifically about your needs


In my first post in this thread here I said about my personal needs/wants:


Maximilian said:


> _As for the (not so well) performance of the EVF I am still in the market for a 5D Mark V_. Not yet willing to jump system and do all the invest again.
> Though the rest of the R system is very interesting...


And this was quoted when it came about invest and EF vs. RF lenses and then you jumped in. 
So sorry, but please follow the whole conversation you try to argue with. 
But I'm fine now


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## AEWest (Mar 26, 2020)

MORphoto.net said:


> I'm personally not too worried about the value of the original R dropping when the R5 is released. The R5 development has been announced so everyone already knows it is just around the corner. They are two very different price points as well. You can already find a new R for $1500ish if you look hard enough, and the R5 will probably be around $3500. Long ago, I sold my original 24-70 2.8 lens when the version 2 development was announced. The price was dropping so I thought I better sell sooner than later. I got about $900 for it at the time. When the official announcement with price came out, it was so much more expensive than the original that the value went up for the old one. I could have gotten $1200 - $1300 for it if I waited. Not sure this story has anything to do with the current decision you are trying to make, but all this typing makes for some great "time killing" while I'm stuck at home.


There are two reasons why I didn't buy the R - lack of IBIS and it being version 1.0 of Canon FF mirrorless system. In tech, I've learned never to buy version 1.0 of any product line - let the bleeding edge folks find all the flaws so they can be fixed for version 2.0.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Mar 26, 2020)

MORphoto.net said:


> I'm personally not too worried about the value of the original R dropping when the R5 is released. The R5 development has been announced so everyone already knows it is just around the corner. They are two very different price points as well. You can already find a new R for $1500ish if you look hard enough, and the R5 will probably be around $3500. Long ago, I sold my original 24-70 2.8 lens when the version 2 development was announced. The price was dropping so I thought I better sell sooner than later. I got about $900 for it at the time. When the official announcement with price came out, it was so much more expensive than the original that the value went up for the old one. I could have gotten $1200 - $1300 for it if I waited. Not sure this story has anything to do with the current decision you are trying to make, but all this typing makes for some great "time killing" while I'm stuck at home.


You make a good point, I've never seen trade in prices go up and I don't think it will in this case but sending it to the company to process the trade in is problematic at the moment anyway, as getting to the postal service to arrange transit is not that easy with the lockdown. Plus it means i'm without the R for an unknown period.
Its so easy to overthink things like this and worry about stuff you cant affect. Whatever I do it will be a little bit of a gamble so I might just hang on until the release date is announced, that way It's not a problem if it is delayed a few months.
Having too much time on our hands is causing its own set of issues lol.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 26, 2020)

AEWest said:


> You had specifically asked what a mirrorless camera (RF mount) could do that a 1dx3 (i.e. EF mount) couldn't. I gave two examples - IBIS and RF lenses.
> 
> Whether these features are unnecessary for your work is a separate matter that only you could answer.
> 
> I myself will eventually get the new compact 70-200 RF lens due to to its size and weight advantages. But first I must buy an RF mount camera!


Ok it kinda moved on from there but if we were talking generalities, as you suggest, RF lenses don’t come into it, they are not a required factor of a MILC just a part of one of Canon’s MILC systems.

So the advantages of MILC in your point of view are IBIS, so could you list the Canon MILC bodies that have IBIS that I could go and buy today?


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## AEWest (Mar 26, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Ok it kinda moved on from there but if we were talking generalities, as you suggest, RF lenses don’t come into it, they are not a required factor of a MILC just a part of one of Canon’s MILC systems.
> 
> So the advantages of MILC in your point of view are IBIS, so could you list the Canon MILC bodies that have IBIS that I could go and buy today?


No - that is why I am waiting as well. But it has been confirmed for R5. Canon rushed out the R so they could develop and sell RF lenses - then to catch up with a proper mirrorless body. It has taken longer than expected. 
For me to switch from DSLR to mirrorless I do need the advantages of IBIS to justify the switch along with the better RF glass.


----------



## MORphoto.net (Mar 26, 2020)

AEWest said:


> There are two reasons why I didn't buy the R - lack of IBIS and it being version 1.0 of Canon FF mirrorless system. In tech, I've learned never to buy version 1.0 of any product line - let the bleeding edge folks find all the flaws so they can be fixed for version 2.0.


Okay.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 26, 2020)

AEWest said:


> No - that is why I am waiting as well. But it has been confirmed for R5. Canon rushed out the R so they could develop and sell RF lenses - then to catch up with a proper mirrorless body. It has taken longer than expected.
> For me to switch from DSLR to mirrorless I do need the advantages of IBIS to justify the switch along with the better RF glass.


That’s my point. “No”. The advantages you think you might get in a MILC you don’t own are IBIS which isn’t available from Canon yet or Canon RF lenses that don’t work on other MILC systems, hardly a compelling answer for somebody needing to take images today, or tomorrow, or next month...

What I can say is the rate at which EF gear is depreciating and the clamor for MILC makes EF gear an absolute bargain for people actually taking pictures!


----------



## ildyria (Mar 26, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Canon rushed out the R so they could develop and sell RF lenses - then to catch up with a proper mirrorless body. It has taken longer than expected.



I totally agree with the fact that the R was slightly rushed. However Canon did not really had much choice, they had to get their a mirrorless FF out.
Sony was getting pretty visible, especially with the a9 and Nikon was making a lot of teasing and noise with their "In Poursuit Of Light" trailer .
As a result they needed something that was close to the level of a 5D in term of sensor quality rather than a 6D (Yes lots of people cried "No IBIS, No dual card")...

Given how long it takes them to release the R5, I think it was also a good idea to get the R out early, I do think a few photographers (& instragamers/influencers) would have switch boat otherwise...

Personally, I started on mirrorless and coming from the m50, the R was a big upgrade in my case, and with update 1.4 it got the eye-AF pretty close to Sony level. So I have absolutely no regret for having gone to "version 1". If canon had not released the R, I might have gone Sony (I'm really glad I didn't).

Also getting the R out to develop great lenses and then get pro bodies out is IMHO a better approach than what Nikon did: great body but no glass.


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## AEWest (Mar 26, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> That’s my point. “No”. The advantages you think you might get in a MILC you don’t own are IBIS which isn’t available from Canon yet or Canon RF lenses that don’t work on other MILC systems, hardly a compelling answer for somebody needing to take images today, or tomorrow, or next month...
> 
> What I can say is the rate at which EF gear is depreciating and the clamor for MILC makes EF gear an absolute bargain for people actually taking pictures!


I also want to future proof my purchase - as you know lenses are everything in an ILC system whether mirrorless or not. And I don't see a long term future in EF glass. 
But I do see current value in EF mount and have said as much - 5d4 is excellent at still photos for many as well as benefit of cheaper EF glass. 

We are currently in a technological transition stage and it is up to each photographer to see what best meets his or her needs. For me the best decision is to move forward with the new tech represented by the R5 or R6.


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## Ian_of_glos (Mar 26, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Definitely sounds like a 5D mark V is coming. I had lots of issues with autofocus on the 5D mark IV so I'm sticking with mirrorless. My favourite focal length is also 50mm so the R series is a much better choice... the EF 50mm lenses aren't very good at all


What were the autofocus issues you had on the 5D mk4? I have had my 5D mk4 for nearly 3 years now and I have not had any problems with the autofocus.
Recently I was on a training course and one of the other photographers made the same comment. He gave that as his main reason for switching to an EOS R. He is very pleased with it, but when we compared the results on his EOS R with 24-105 F and my 5D mk4 with 85mm F1.4L there was little to choose between them. In both cases the focussing was sharp and accurate. To be perfectly honest I would be happy to use either of these cameras.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 26, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I also want to future proof my purchase - as you know lenses are everything in an ILC system whether mirrorless or not. And I don't see a long term future in EF glass.
> But I do see current value in EF mount and have said as much - 5d4 is excellent at still photos for many as well as benefit of cheaper EF glass.
> 
> We are currently in a technological transition stage and it is up to each photographer to see what best meets his or her needs. For me the best decision is to move forward with the new tech represented by the R5 or R6.


I understand that, my point was purely answering the question what can a DSLR do that a MILC can't, I said a couple then you came back with a couple both of which are not currently available together.

Of course we all need to work out what will work best for each of us as individuals, but it seems to me many are caught up in a wave of enthusiasm for an entirely different system for relatively minor reasons.


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## AEWest (Mar 26, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I understand that, my point was purely answering the question what can a DSLR do that a MILC can't, I said a couple then you came back with a couple both of which are not currently available together.
> 
> Of course we all need to work out what will work best for each of us as individuals, but it seems to me many are caught up in a wave of enthusiasm for an entirely different system for relatively minor reasons.


Quite possibly. I tend to invest in a new camera very infrequently (my camera is now 7 years old and long in tooth). So I am looking to upgrade. And future proofing is a big part of the decision - I don't mind spending a little more upfront now as I expect the new camera to last for another 8-10 years. 

I don't feel comfortable investing in an EF mount camera right now even though the prices are lower. I do want to start acquiring RF glass over the next few years so that the next camera I buy after this year's camera will have current glass.


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## unfocused (Mar 26, 2020)

MORphoto.net said:


> I've never noticed viewfinder lag. I guess technically there must be, but I can't detect it...



Earlier this spring, before the coronavirus apocalypse, I was shooting portraits of softball players. They all wanted pictures where they threw the ball up into the air and stood looking at the camera with the ball in mid air. I was trying to shoot with the R and no matter what I did the viewfinder never matched up with the shutter/flash. There was always a lag and I had to just guess and pray. A few days later, I tried it with the 5D4. No problem. That's when it really became apparent to me. Example attached. I did it, but it took many more tries and as I say, I just had to guess and not rely on the viewfinder.


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## MORphoto.net (Mar 26, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Earlier this spring, before the coronavirus apocalypse, I was shooting portraits of softball players. They all wanted pictures where they threw the ball up into the air and stood looking at the camera with the ball in mid air. I was trying to shoot with the R and no matter what I did the viewfinder never matched up with the shutter/flash. There was always a lag and I had to just guess and pray. A few days later, I tried it with the 5D4. No problem. That's when it really became apparent to me. Example attached. I did it, but it took many more tries and as I say, I just had to guess and not rely on the viewfinder.


I actually get a tiny bit of lag on the shutter button fairly often. I can see that messing up the timing for something like this as well. I'd bet the R5 has this worked out... hopefully. It's never been a problem for what I shoot, but it is noticeable. 

View attachment 189411
View attachment 189411


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## Chris.Chapterten (Mar 27, 2020)

Ian_of_glos said:


> What were the autofocus issues you had on the 5D mk4? I have had my 5D mk4 for nearly 3 years now and I have not had any problems with the autofocus.
> Recently I was on a training course and one of the other photographers made the same comment. He gave that as his main reason for switching to an EOS R. He is very pleased with it, but when we compared the results on his EOS R with 24-105 F and my 5D mk4 with 85mm F1.4L there was little to choose between them. In both cases the focussing was sharp and accurate. To be perfectly honest I would be happy to use either of these cameras.



I had an EF 35mm 1.4L ii that refused to AF accurately on the 5D Mark IV. Canon ended up replacing the lens for me after it was sent in for calibration about 4 or 5 times. The second copy of the lens had the same issues and in the end they gave me a refund for the lens. Hit rate with the 35mm was about 50-60% even when using the centre focus point.

My EF 85mm f1.4L IS was a bit better with a 70-80% hit rate using the centre focus point, but I was still unhappy with the performance overall. No matter what lens or focus point I used i would be lucky to get 80% of photos in focus. This despite multiple trips to Canon for calibration.

As soon as I got the R the difference in Autofocus accuracy was night and day! Especially comparing EF 50mm f1.4 vs RF 50mm f1.2. The EF 50mm was the worst performing in terms of AF on the 5D IV


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## SteveC (Mar 27, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> I had an EF 35mm 1.4L ii that refused to AF accurately on the 5D Mark IV. Canon ended up replacing the lens for me after it was sent in for calibration about 4 or 5 times. The second copy of the lens had the same issues and in the end they gave me a refund for the lens. Hit rate with the 35mm was about 50-60% even when using the centre focus point.
> 
> My EF 85mm f1.4L IS was a bit better with a 70-80% hit rate using the centre focus point, but I was still unhappy with the performance overall. No matter what lens or focus point I used i would be lucky to get 80% of photos in focus. This despite multiple trips to Canon for calibration.
> 
> As soon as I got the R the difference in Autofocus accuracy was night and day! Especially comparing EF 50mm f1.4 vs RF 50mm f1.2. The EF 50mm was the worst performing in terms of AF on the 5D IV



It would be interesting to see if the EF lenses perform better on your R than they did with your 5D IV. (Assuming you have the adapter.) Then you'd know where the blame lies. 

You're comparing an EF camera _and lenses_ to an RF camera _and lenses_ here, and you apparently blame the 5D IV for the problems, even though that's not the only difference between the two setups. Most notably your EF 50mm isn't an L, but your RF 50mm is.


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## Chris.Chapterten (Mar 27, 2020)

SteveC said:


> It would be interesting to see if the EF lenses perform better on your R than they did with your 5D IV. (Assuming you have the adapter.) Then you'd know where the blame lies.
> 
> You're comparing an EF camera _and lenses_ to an RF camera _and lenses_ here, and you apparently blame the 5D IV for the problems, even though that's not the only difference between the two setups. Most notably your EF 50mm isn't an L, but your RF 50mm is.



Oh no I totally understand that it's not fair to compare the EF to the RF in that way... just saying it was a bad combination for AF.

I tested the 85mm f1.4L IS with an adapter on the EOS R and the autofocus was much improved when using the R. Cheers


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## 12Broncos (Mar 27, 2020)

That's nice, How about releasing it?


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## sulla (Mar 27, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Two killer features for me, zero viewfinder lag and realistic representation of what I can see.


SLR cameras also have viewfinder lag: The time it takes for the mirror to flip up. On modern cameras that's in the order of 20-30 milliseconds.
While it might well be that the R is slower than that, I see no reason why fast EVFs shouldn't beat those 20ms easily and why the R5 should be worse than the 5D4.


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## jd7 (Mar 27, 2020)

sulla said:


> SLR cameras also have viewfinder lag: The time it takes for the mirror to flip up. On modern cameras that's in the order of 20-30 milliseconds.
> While it might well be that the R is slower than that, I see no reason why fast EVFs shouldn't beat those 20ms easily and why the R5 should be worse than the 5D4.


Unless I'm mistaken, you're talking about shutter lag, rather than viewfinder lag. The viewfinder lag should be down to the speed of light, so it should be minimal!


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## sulla (Mar 27, 2020)

jd7 said:


> Unless I'm mistaken, you're talking about shutter lag, rather than viewfinder lag. The viewfinder lag should be down to the speed of light, so it should be minimal!


yes, indeed. But one of the problems pointed out was that it was harder with the R to capture what you see.
That ability is mainly limited by "how live" the image is plus how fast the image is captured when you press the shutter.
An SLR is perfect in the first aspect, but not soooo good in the second.
An EVF-camera might be worse in terms of "live-ness" but better in terms of responsiveness, so it might be worse or better overall.


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## Ian_of_glos (Mar 27, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> I had an EF 35mm 1.4L ii that refused to AF accurately on the 5D Mark IV. Canon ended up replacing the lens for me after it was sent in for calibration about 4 or 5 times. The second copy of the lens had the same issues and in the end they gave me a refund for the lens. Hit rate with the 35mm was about 50-60% even when using the centre focus point.
> 
> My EF 85mm f1.4L IS was a bit better with a 70-80% hit rate using the centre focus point, but I was still unhappy with the performance overall. No matter what lens or focus point I used i would be lucky to get 80% of photos in focus. This despite multiple trips to Canon for calibration.
> 
> As soon as I got the R the difference in Autofocus accuracy was night and day! Especially comparing EF 50mm f1.4 vs RF 50mm f1.2. The EF 50mm was the worst performing in terms of AF on the 5D IV


That really surprises me. My copies of the Canon 35mm F1.4L ii and the 85mm F1.4L are the two best lenses I own. They both focus quickly and accurately on my 5D mark 4 so I cannot understand why you have had so many problems. On my camera all the shots taken with these lenses are in focus, regardless of whether I use the centre AF point or one of the peripheral AF points so I can assure you that it is possible to achieve very reliable autofocus on a 5D mk4.
As you can achieve reliable focus on your EOS R then it is unlikely that there is something wrong with your technique so the only thing I can suggest is that there might have been a fault with your 5D mk4. However, that is probably irrelevant now and I pleased that you have been having more success with your EOS R.

Incidentally, the 50mm F1.2L is not one of Canon's best lenses and I had to return the first two copies I bought before I found one that focusses reliably.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 27, 2020)

sulla said:


> SLR cameras also have viewfinder lag: The time it takes for the mirror to flip up. On modern cameras that's in the order of 20-30 milliseconds.
> While it might well be that the R is slower than that, I see no reason why fast EVFs shouldn't beat those 20ms easily and why the R5 should be worse than the 5D4.


No DSLR's have viewfinder _blackout_, but not viewfinder _lag_. Canon MILC's are famous for having both.


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## Nelu (Mar 27, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> so what can you mirrorless do that cameras like the 1DX III can’t do?


Well, let’s see:

No micro AF adjustment needed.
Superb manual focusing with focus peaking
Image playback in the viewfinder, absolutely great to check the focus at 1:1 zoom
Way better handling for shooting videos, using the EVF, not the back LCD
Silent shutter (?)
Of course, there might be more but these are really important for me.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 27, 2020)

Nelu said:


> Well, let’s see:
> 
> No micro AF adjustment needed.
> Superb manual focusing with focus peaking
> ...


1: And yet a lot of MILC’s have AF adjustment.....
2: I have found focus peaking too inaccurate to be mission critical.
3: I haven’t found the EVF high enough quality to judge critical focus.
4: Anytime I am contemplating serious video I’d go monitor route for the video essentials like waveforms, etc.
5: New DSLR’s have silent shutters.

To be sure there are benefits of both types of camera, and they both have a place. But this almost cult like enthusiasm for MILC’s seems to sound to me more like excuses to buy new toys (for which we need no reason) rather than considered comparison. I own DSLR”S and MILC’s, there are times and occasions either works best in a particular scenario, but fo the vast majority of the time the difference comes down to my mood, not the functionality differences such that they are.


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## AEWest (Mar 27, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> 1: And yet a lot of MILC’s have AF adjustment.....
> 2: I have found focus peaking too inaccurate to be mission critical.
> 3: I haven’t found the EVF high enough quality to judge critical focus.
> 4: Anytime I am contemplating serious video I’d go monitor route for the video essentials like waveforms, etc.
> ...


Sure there are some that just want the latest and greatest. To each his own. For me it is a matter of future proofing my investment as much as possible - and DSLRs won't help me do that.


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## unfocused (Mar 27, 2020)

AEWest said:


> ...For me it is a matter of future proofing my investment as much as possible - and DSLRs won't help me do that.



I don't understand this. Not being critical, but I honestly don't understand what people think they are future-proofing against. Every EF lens you own is going to continue to work with every R series camera, either for the rest of your life or the life of the lens. Today, most camera bodies have limited lifespans. I doubt if I will ever see a body that lasts as long as my F1 did (35 years). It's just the nature of electronics and technology that bodies today either fail or go out of date a lot sooner than film bodies used to. So, I don't see buying any camera body as a decades long investment that offers future-proofing.

How does anyone know if the R and RF series will be viable a decade from now? With the amazing things that are happening with technology who knows where things will stand in a few years.

To me, this confidence that people are future-proofing their investment sounds pretty risky. It's a little bit like someone dumping all their DVDs for Blue-Ray disks five years ago. You never know what's just around the corner.


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## AEWest (Mar 27, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I don't understand this. Not being critical, but I honestly don't understand what people think they are future-proofing against. Every EF lens you own is going to continue to work with every R series camera, either for the rest of your life or the life of the lens. Today, most camera bodies have limited lifespans. I doubt if I will ever see a body that lasts as long as my F1 did (35 years). It's just the nature of electronics and technology that bodies today either fail or go out of date a lot sooner than film bodies used to. So, I don't see buying any camera body as a decades long investment that offers future-proofing.
> 
> How does anyone know if the R and RF series will be viable a decade from now? With the amazing things that are happening with technology who knows where things will stand in a few years.
> 
> To me, this confidence that people are future-proofing their investment sounds pretty risky. It's a little bit like someone dumping all their DVDs for Blue-Ray disks five years ago. You never know what's just around the corner.


True, none of us has a perfect crystal ball - or I would have sold off my stock holdings months ago  - but we do our best.

I see no future development in the EF mount but lots of new higher quality offerings in RF. The EF line lasted over thirty years and is being phased out for the next generation line of lenses just as the FD line was phased out in favour of EF. 

Technology marches on. Given Canon's history I can't imagine the RF line being phased out in less than twenty years - they are investing millions to switch over.


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## deleteme (Mar 27, 2020)

SteveC said:


> It would be interesting to see if the EF lenses perform better on your R than they did with your 5D IV. (Assuming you have the adapter.) Then you'd know where the blame lies.
> 
> You're comparing an EF camera _and lenses_ to an RF camera _and lenses_ here, and you apparently blame the 5D IV for the problems, even though that's not the only difference between the two setups. Most notably your EF 50mm isn't an L, but your RF 50mm is.


I have used my 70-200 f2.8 L IS on my mk4 and R. The R wins hands down. Not only is focus more accurate in almost every situation but the fact I can place the AF point anywhere I want without re-composing is brilliant.
It was almost like buying a new lens.


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## deleteme (Mar 27, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> 1: And yet a lot of MILC’s have AF adjustment.....
> 2: I have found focus peaking too inaccurate to be mission critical.
> 3: I haven’t found the EVF high enough quality to judge critical focus.
> 4: Anytime I am contemplating serious video I’d go monitor route for the video essentials like waveforms, etc.
> ...


1. Sony has AF adjustment to accommodate their mirrored adapters.
2. Agreed
3.Agreed but then that is what Live View is for.
4. Can't comment, don't use video
5. My mk4 certainly is not quiet ever in any mode.

I have to say my DSLRs perform better in bright sun and in action environments.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 27, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Sure there are some that just want the latest and greatest. To each his own. For me it is a matter of future proofing my investment as much as possible - and DSLRs won't help me do that.


I’m not dismissing your personal purchasing thoughts, but cameras and lenses are not investments, they are tools or toys.


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## cayenne (Mar 27, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> 1: And yet a lot of MILC’s have AF adjustment.....
> 2: I have found focus peaking too inaccurate to be mission critical.
> 3: I haven’t found the EVF high enough quality to judge critical focus.
> 4: Anytime I am contemplating serious video I’d go monitor route for the video essentials like waveforms, etc.
> ...




I myself am becoming more and more a fan of view cameras for focus and seeing depth of field, etc....











Just for a chuckle....

cayenne


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## Valvebounce (Mar 27, 2020)

Hi AEWest. 
I don’t think saying the FD lens was phased out is quite fair, they were dropped like a hot rock! A mistake that Canon seems to have decided not to make twice!
The FD did not fit EF mounts without an adaptor that either removed infinity focus or added a lens that reduced optical quality, the EF lens will fit the RF with a fully functional adaptor no quality loss no function loss, and both systems are running concurrently with new releases of each, for how long is anyone’s guess, but its 18 months so far. 

Cheers, Graham. 



AEWest said:


> True, none of us has a perfect crystal ball - or I would have sold off my stock holdings months ago  - but we do our best.
> 
> I see no future development in the EF mount but lots of new higher quality offerings in RF. The EF line lasted over thirty years and is being phased out for the next generation line of lenses just as the FD line was phased out in favour of EF.
> 
> Technology marches on. Given Canon's history I can't imagine the RF line being phased out in less than twenty years - they are investing millions to switch over.


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## Valvebounce (Mar 27, 2020)

Hi Normalnorm. 
And Nikon has AF adjustment on their Z for....

Cheers, Graham. 



Normalnorm said:


> 1. Sony has AF adjustment to accommodate their mirrored adapters.
> 2. Agreed
> 3.Agreed but then that is what Live View is for.
> 4. Can't comment, don't use video
> ...


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## AEWest (Mar 27, 2020)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi AEWest.
> I don’t think saying the FD lens was phased out is quite fair, they were dropped like a hot rock! A mistake that Canon seems to have decided not to make twice!
> The FD did not fit EF mounts without an adaptor that either removed infinity focus or added a lens that reduced optical quality, the EF lens will fit the RF with a fully functional adaptor no quality loss no function loss, and both systems are running concurrently with new releases of each, for how long is anyone’s guess, but its 18 months so far.
> 
> Cheers, Graham.


Yes, I was caught up in that change. Not fun for an AE-1 owner at the time! It is much better this time around, i will be able to phase out EF lenses over time.

I will say that there is still a negative with EF lenses - they won't be as sharp as equivalent RF lenses due to their inherent limitation of the 44mm flange distance they were designed for. But much better for sure!


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## Valvebounce (Mar 27, 2020)

Hi AEWest. 
Like you, my dad was caught up in this, he stopped with the 3 lenses he had and never progressed to digital, as film got harder to get processed so he reduced the number of shots until eventually he just lost interest. I tried to reignite his passion for photography by lending him some basic gear but it was dead, buried and concreted over!

Cheers, Graham.



AEWest said:


> Yes, I was caught up in that change. Not fun for an AE-1 owner at the time! It is much better this time around, i will be able to phase out EF lenses over time.
> 
> I will say that there is still a negative with EF lenses - they won't be as sharp as equivalent RF lenses due to their inherent limitation of the 44mm flange distance they were designed for. But much better for sure!


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## ildyria (Mar 27, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> 2: I have found focus peaking too inaccurate to be mission critical.


I disagree strongly on that one.

Focus peaking is extremely powerful and gives me better results than manual focus with an OVF or simply auto focus.
And by focus peaking, I do not mean the red/blue/green overlay which tells you which zone is sharp or the focus guides. Those are plain useless and rely on the auto focus. Focus peaking is the one where you zoom.

I get way sharper images in landscapes as I would with auto-focus (especially close to infinity).


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## AEWest (Mar 27, 2020)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi AEWest.
> Like you, my dad was caught up in this, he stopped with the 3 lenses he had and never progressed to digital, as film got harder to get processed so he reduced the number of shots until eventually he just lost interest. I tried to reignite his passion for photography by lending him some basic gear but it was dead, buried and concreted over!
> 
> Cheers, Graham.


You make me sound so old!


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## privatebydesign (Mar 27, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> 1. Sony has AF adjustment to accommodate their mirrored adapters.
> 2. Agreed
> 3.Agreed but then that is what Live View is for.
> 4. Can't comment, don't use video
> ...


1: And Olympus and Nikon...

5: The 1DX III is as silent as any MILC.

I agree with your last point about OVF's, I also find EVF's weird in dim venues as it is too much of a contrast from what I actually see, maybe it's because I normally shoot with both eyes open and my brain just can't handle the two very different brightness levels, but I have tried and I just don't get on with EVF's in their current iteration.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 27, 2020)

ildyria said:


> I disagree strongly on that one.
> 
> Focus peaking is extremely powerful and gives me better results than manual focus with an OVF or simply auto focus.
> And by focus peaking, I do not mean the red/blue/green overlay which tells you which zone is sharp or the focus guides. Those are plain useless and rely on the auto focus. Focus peaking is the one where you zoom.
> ...



My sharpest images are with Live View at 10x in manual focus, no other assistance.

Think of the way focus peaking works, it isn't measuring focus it is measuring contrast and where it believes the highest levels of micro contrast are in a scene.

I don't know what you mean by _"Focus peaking is the one where you zoom" _focus peaking is the one where you have a color showing your 'sharpest areas', maybe your technique works for landscapes, I know it doesn't work for portraits.


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## ildyria (Mar 27, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> My sharpest images are with Live View at 10x in manual focus, no other assistance.
> 
> Think of the way focus peaking works, it isn't measuring focus it is measuring contrast and where it believes the highest levels of micro contrast are in a scene.
> 
> I don't know what you mean by _"Focus peaking is the one where you zoom" _focus peaking is the one where you have a color showing your 'sharpest areas', maybe your technique works for landscapes, I know it doesn't work for portraits.


Ok then my bad, I thought Focus peaking was the live view x5 x10 (as you manually peak).

Then totally agree with you, this thing is completely useless.


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## Czardoom (Mar 27, 2020)

AEWest said:


> True, none of us has a perfect crystal ball - or I would have sold off my stock holdings months ago  - but we do our best.
> 
> I see no future development in the EF mount but lots of new higher quality offerings in RF. The EF line lasted over thirty years and is being phased out for the next generation line of lenses just as the FD line was phased out in favour of EF.
> 
> Technology marches on. Given Canon's history I can't imagine the RF line being phased out in less than twenty years - they are investing millions to switch over.



Only forum dwellers keep repeating that EF lenses are being phased out. Canon has made absolutely no such comment. As long as DSLRS sell as well as the mirrorless offerings, they will continue to make and sell EF lenses. There is absolutely no comparison between the EF line and the FD line situation. FD lenses did not work with the new cameras when EF lenses came into existence. The EF lenses work as well as ever on the new R cameras.

Nor, in any of the comparisons that I have seen, is there much difference between the EF and RF lenses (EF lenses are already about as sharp as optics technology can make them). The new RF mount does allow for faster lenses that weren't possible with EF. Other RF lenses seem to be slightly sharper wide open than their EF counterparts. Otherwise, there is little difference (and probably no noticeable difference when printing or not pixel peeping) between the L EF and RF lenses from what I have read and seen.

The consumers will decide which format - or if both will - ultimately continue for the next decade or more.


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## AEWest (Mar 27, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I don't understand this. Not being critical, but I honestly don't understand what people think they are future-proofing against. Every EF lens you own is going to continue to work with every R series camera, either for the rest of your life or the life of the lens. Today, most camera bodies have limited lifespans. I doubt if I will ever see a body that lasts as long as my F1 did (35 years). It's just the nature of electronics and technology that bodies today either fail or go out of date a lot sooner than film bodies used to. So, I don't see buying any camera body as a decades long investment that offers future-proofing.
> 
> How does anyone know if the R and RF series will be viable a decade from now? With the amazing things that are happening with technology who knows where things will stand in a few years.
> 
> To me, this confidence that people are future-proofing their investment sounds pretty risky. It's a little bit like someone dumping all their DVDs for Blue-Ray disks five years ago. You never know what's just around the corner.


I'm not sure I follow the logic of the first paragraph of your argument. Yes, every EF lens will work on an RF mount camera. But the point is that no RF lens will ever work on an EF body.

So if someone is in the market for a new Canon FF camera, they can choose either EF or RF mount. The only two reasons I can think of why someone other than a pro sports shooter would choose the EF mount (assuming the R5 and R6 are available) are:
1. More cost effective to get the EF camera. 
2. They dislike EVF so much that it is a dealbreaker.

Otherwise it makes more sense to get an RF mount camera as you get the widest available selection of lenses.


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## AEWest (Mar 27, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> Only forum dwellers keep repeating that EF lenses are being phased out. Canon has made absolutely no such comment. As long as DSLRS sell as well as the mirrorless offerings, they will continue to make and sell EF lenses. There is absolutely no comparison between the EF line and the FD line situation. FD lenses did not work with the new cameras when EF lenses came into existence. The EF lenses work as well as ever on the new R cameras.
> 
> Nor, in any of the comparisons that I have seen, is there much difference between the EF and RF lenses (EF lenses are already about as sharp as optics technology can make them). The new RF mount does allow for faster lenses that weren't possible with EF. Other RF lenses seem to be slightly sharper wide open than their EF counterparts. Otherwise, there is little difference (and probably no noticeable difference when printing or not pixel peeping) between the L EF and RF lenses from what I have read and seen.
> 
> The consumers will decide which format - or if both will - ultimately continue for the next decade or more.


I disagree that it only for consumers to decide. If it were only up to consumers, there would be many more camera models to choose from as everyone has different needs. Compromises have to be made.
Canon would have to rationalize why they are making two different 70-200 f2.8 lenses in a rapidly shrinking market as an example.

I expect that within a year we will have 20 R lenses to choose from. They are clearly working toward a full line up of R lenses in the next few years. Have you ever seen any camera maker simultaneously have two separate full frame lens lineups? I haven't. Especially in a contracting market, it makes little sense to keep both going long term.


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## unfocused (Mar 27, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I disagree that it only for consumers to decide. If it were only up to consumers, there would be many more camera models to choose from as everyone has different needs. Compromises have to be made.
> 
> Canon would have to rationalize why they are making two different 70-200 f2.8 lenses in a rapidly shrinking market as an example.
> 
> I expect that within a year we will have 20 R lenses to choose from. They are clearly working toward a full line up of R lenses in the next few years. Have you ever seen any camera maker simultaneously have two separate full frame lens lineups? I haven't. Especially in a contracting market, it makes little sense to keep both going long term.



I think you are missing the point that @Czardoom is making. Individual consumers don't decide of course, but collectively all consumers decide through their buying decisions in the market. The number of camera models available is driven by the number of consumers who are willing to buy each model and what they are willing to pay. Consumers decide, because if the company cannot produce a specific model at a price that it can be sold at in the market it won't be made. Conversely, if there is sufficient demand for a product to produce a profit it likely will be made. 

Canon _is_ rationalizing why they are making two different 70-200 f2.8 lenses -- they are rationalizing it by selling sufficient quantities to turn a profit. (Actually, I believe they make three 70-200 f2.8 lenses -- one EF mount without IS, one with IS and one RF mount lens).

It's a little silly to ask if anyone has ever seen a camera manufacturer with two separate full frame lens lineups. What other manufacturers have or haven't done is irrelevant to Canon. Canon now has two different full-frame lines. As long as they have two lines, they will have lenses to fit both lines. How long will they have two lines? As long as the market dictates. So, @Czardoom's point is correct -- consumers will decide. 

I'm beginning to feel as though you have some unstated, vested interest in a specific outcome. I'm just perplexed by people who have bought into the R system and now feel they must convince everyone else to follow suit. I own the R. I use the R. I like the R. But, it's not for everyone. Why do you care?


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## unfocused (Mar 27, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Yes, every EF lens will work on an RF mount camera. But the point is that no RF lens will ever work on an EF body.



So, if you have an RF lens you really, really want, you need to buy an R mount camera. But if you don't, then there are plenty of EF mount lenses to choose from. Same with EF-S and EF-M lenses. If there is one you want, you need to buy a body that can use the lens. The advantage of EF lenses is they work on all four mounts.



AEWest said:


> So if someone is in the market for a new Canon FF camera, they can choose either EF or RF mount. The only two reasons I can think of why someone other than a pro sports shooter would choose the EF mount (assuming the R5 and R6 are available) are:
> 1. More cost effective to get the EF camera.
> 2. They dislike EVF so much that it is a dealbreaker.



This article provides a really good explanation of some of the reasons to get a DSLR. Fast, accurate autofocus for example is a high priority for many people who are not professional sports shooters.



AEWest said:


> Otherwise it makes more sense to get an RF mount camera as you get the widest available selection of lenses.



If the main reason you are buying a camera is to have the widest available selection of lenses. There are other, and I would suggest better, reasons to choose a camera.


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## AEWest (Mar 27, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I think you are missing the point that @Czardoom is making. Individual consumers don't decide of course, but collectively all consumers decide through their buying decisions in the market. The number of camera models available is driven by the number of consumers who are willing to buy each model and what they are willing to pay. Consumers decide, because if the company cannot produce a specific model at a price that it can be sold at in the market it won't be made. Conversely, if there is sufficient demand for a product to produce a profit it likely will be made.
> 
> Canon _is_ rationalizing why they are making two different 70-200 f2.8 lenses -- they are rationalizing it by selling sufficient quantities to turn a profit. (Actually, I believe they make three 70-200 f2.8 lenses -- one EF mount without IS, one with IS and one RF mount lens).
> 
> ...


I don't care if people use EF or RF. Some people seem offended if I suggest that EF mount will be phased out. I am merely giving reasons why I think this is the case and I am fine if they disagree. That is what forums are for! As long as we debate in a respectful way what is the harm?


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## Chris.Chapterten (Mar 28, 2020)

Ian_of_glos said:


> That really surprises me. My copies of the Canon 35mm F1.4L ii and the 85mm F1.4L are the two best lenses I own. They both focus quickly and accurately on my 5D mark 4 so I cannot understand why you have had so many problems. On my camera all the shots taken with these lenses are in focus, regardless of whether I use the centre AF point or one of the peripheral AF points so I can assure you that it is possible to achieve very reliable autofocus on a 5D mk4.
> As you can achieve reliable focus on your EOS R then it is unlikely that there is something wrong with your technique so the only thing I can suggest is that there might have been a fault with your 5D mk4. However, that is probably irrelevant now and I pleased that you have been having more success with your EOS R.
> 
> Incidentally, the 50mm F1.2L is not one of Canon's best lenses and I had to return the first two copies I bought before I found one that focusses reliably.


I was totally stumped aswell. All of the reviews I had read about the lenses praised their auto focus. Glad to hear yours have been working perfectly. I never would have felt the need to buy the R if I had a similar experience.

Agreed, I may have just been unlucky with the body. It was sent back and forth to Canon at least 5 times for calibration but it never improved. All of my testing was in good lighting with no focus and recompose. My 5D mark iii performed signifcantly better as did my EOS R. So there wasn't much doubt.

Do you mean the EF 50mm 1.2L? I have heard that lens is a bit hit and miss with focusing. My RF 50mm 1.2L has been totally fine so far.

Cheers!


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## SecureGSM (Mar 28, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> I was totally stumped aswell. All of the reviews I had read about the lenses praised their auto focus. Glad to hear yours have been working perfectly. I never would have felt the need to buy the R if I had a similar experience.
> 
> Agreed, I may have just been unlucky with the body. It was sent back and forth to Canon at least 5 times for calibration but it never improved. All of my testing was in good lighting with no focus and recompose. My 5D mark iii performed signifcantly better as did my EOS R. So there wasn't much doubt.
> 
> ...


As someone who have done numerous calibration jobs for clients as a tiny side business more like a fun and an excuse to have a nice chat with fellow togs, I can assure you that Canon 35/1.4 II L is the most consistently focusing prime lens under 200mm. With average focus consistency results being around 99.8% when tested on Canon 5D4 bodies. Your copy of 5D4 is likely at fault here. 

There is a wide range of possible causes ranging from a dirty AF sensor to various electronic fault. 
I owned 35/1.4 II for an extended period of time and found the lens focusing consistently on my 5D4 bodies.


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## Chris.Chapterten (Mar 28, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> As someone who have done numerous calibration jobs for clients as a tiny side business more like a fun and an excuse to have a nice chat with fellow togs, I can assure you that Canon 35/1.4 II L is the most consistently focusing prime lens under 200mm. With average focus consistency results being around 99.8% when tested on Canon 5D4 bodies. Your copy of 5D4 is likely at fault here.
> 
> There is a wide range of possible causes ranging from a dirty AF sensor to various electronic fault.
> I owned 35/1.4 II for an extended period of time and found the lens focusing consistently on my 5D4 bodies.


That was my thoughts aswell. I don't understand how two copies of the lens could exhibit the same behaviour otherwise. Canon couldn't figure it out though unfortunately, hence the refund. It was a shame because I did really love that lens. Now just waiting on an RF 35mm f1.2 to replace it


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## sulla (Mar 28, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> No DSLR's have viewfinder _blackout_, but not viewfinder _lag_. Canon MILC's are famous for having both.


anyone know by just how long (in terms of milliseconds) the viewfinder lags in the R or RP?


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## SecureGSM (Mar 28, 2020)

sulla said:


> anyone know by just how long (in terms of milliseconds) the viewfinder lags in the R or RP?


Around 200ms to my eye. Like you are seriously miss it. Not just a tad.


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## Valvebounce (Mar 28, 2020)

That makes two then, I was there too! I hadn’t got in to photography yet, couldn’t afford that as well as cars and girls! 



AEWest said:


> You make me sound so old!


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## Valvebounce (Mar 28, 2020)

Hi.
Are you saying that the RF lenses focus faster than EF lenses, have you tried a 1 Series body, or have you just conveniently overlooked the Canon EF 50MM f/1.0 L USM, World's Fastest SLR Lens, World's Fastest AF Lens, World's Fastest DSLR Lens. At least until recently when Nikon launched Nikon Z 58mm f/0.95 NOCT, a *manual *focus lens launched some 30 years after canons f/1.0!
Lensrentals hands on review.

Cheers, Graham.



Czardoom said:


> The new RF mount does allow for faster lenses that weren't possible with EF.


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## sulla (Mar 28, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Around 200ms to my eye. Like you are seriously miss it. Not just a tad.


That is pretty horrible then.
200ms would correspond to ~2 frames with the R @ 8fps, and 4 frames at the 20 fps-mode of the R5.


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## SecureGSM (Mar 28, 2020)

sulla said:


> That is pretty horrible then.
> 200ms would correspond to ~2 frames with the R @ 8fps, and 4 frames at the 20 fps-mode of the R5.


yeah, not ideal for shooting fast action. I trust R5 will be a much improved camera in that regard.


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## Czardoom (Mar 28, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I don't care if people use EF or RF. Some people seem offended if I suggest that EF mount will be phased out. I am merely giving reasons why I think this is the case and I am fine if they disagree. That is what forums are for! As long as we debate in a respectful way what is the harm?



If you had said that *you think that* the EF lenses will be phased out, I would not have responded to that. Instead you said, "The EF line lasted over thirty years and is being phased out for the next generation line of lenses just as the FD line was phased out in favour of EF."

In other words, you said that "EF is being phased out" as if it were a statement of fact. Many readers would no doubt take it as such thinking you had either read or heard that it is indeed fact.


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## Czardoom (Mar 28, 2020)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi.
> Are you saying that the RF lenses focus faster than EF lenses, have you tried a 1 Series body, or have you just conveniently overlooked the Canon EF 50MM f/1.0 L USM, World's Fastest SLR Lens, World's Fastest AF Lens, World's Fastest DSLR Lens. At least until recently when Nikon launched Nikon Z 58mm f/0.95 NOCT, a *manual *focus lens launched some 30 years after canons f/1.0!
> Lensrentals hands on review.
> 
> Cheers, Graham.



I am not talking about focus speed. I am talking about aperture. Perhaps a semantic difference between countries.


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## deleteme (Mar 28, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> 1: And Olympus and Nikon...
> 
> 5: The 1DX III is as silent as any MILC.
> 
> I agree with your last point about OVF's, I also find EVF's weird in dim venues as it is too much of a contrast from what I actually see, maybe it's because I normally shoot with both eyes open and my brain just can't handle the two very different brightness levels, but I have tried and I just don't get on with EVF's in their current iteration.


Haven't used the 1D


Valvebounce said:


> Hi Normalnorm.
> And Nikon has AF adjustment on their Z for....
> 
> Cheers, Graham.


So... is that a win or an admission of failure?


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## Athomp2002 (Mar 28, 2020)

I hope they do make a 5D mark V, and gear it more towards photographers with an even higher dynamic range and other things built for photographers. I think the mirror lesses best features are geared more towards videography. With that said, the DSLR’s should be geared towards those who don’t want to switch to mirror less bodies at this point, love DSLR’s and want to continue with their shooting style and work flow. I think that would be the best move for Canon! I hope they consider a higher dynamic range, possibly a higher megapixel count, IBIS and more in body features for photographers. They would still be able to market the R5 as the all around work horse of a camera for everyone, but at the same time they could create something for those who love and work better with the mirrored cameras. 

This will be fun to watch! I love the idea of the R5, but I am not keen on the digital view finder! I have tried using the digital view finder for a few days (with another brand of cameras) and I found my eye’s were strained after starring through the digital view finder for longer periods of time. Not sure if that‘s just me or not, but if I am shooting an entire day, I prefer a DSLR in comparison to the mirror less cameras.


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## Valvebounce (Mar 28, 2020)

Hi Normalnorm. 
Neither really, just throwing it in to the mix!

Cheers, Graham. 



Normalnorm said:


> Haven't used the 1D
> 
> So... is that a win or an admission of failure?


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## Valvebounce (Mar 28, 2020)

So you picked up on my single comment on AF and missed the bits and the links about the *50mm* *f/1.0 aperture *as yet unmatched in the RF mount system (which allows faster lenses) which currently tops out at f/1.2, i.e. slower than the fastest EF lens by 1/2 or 2/3rds, depending on if you chose to read half or third stop charts! 

Cheers, Graham. 



Czardoom said:


> I am not talking about focus speed. I am talking about aperture. Perhaps a semantic difference between countries.


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## SteveC (Mar 28, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> I am not talking about focus speed. I am talking about aperture. Perhaps a semantic difference between countries.



I admit I have to stop a lot of times when someone talks about a fast lens and remind myself he's not talking about how quick it is to zoom or focus or anything like that! It was an unambiguous term back when autofocus didn't exist, but now I wish people had called it "bright" instead of "fast" because "fast" would be a better word for quickness of autofocus than it is for focal ratio (where it describes an effect--and by no means the only important effect--of a high focal ratio).

But English is what it is, and "fast" it will be when it opens really wide.


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## OverTheHill (Mar 29, 2020)

I have an EOS R. Most of the time I really like it. This past week I have been out shooting birds. The EVF is really dark in the bright sunlight, the auto focus is slow and the EVF has a lag. The R5 I'm guessing will correct 2 of the 3 problems but any word on them upgrading the EVF?


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## BillB (Mar 29, 2020)

SteveC said:


> I admit I have to stop a lot of times when someone talks about a fast lens and remind myself he's not talking about how quick it is to zoom or focus or anything like that! It was an unambiguous term back when autofocus didn't exist, but now I wish people had called it "bright" instead of "fast" because "fast" would be a better word for quickness of autofocus than it is for focal ratio (where it describes an effect--and by no means the only important effect--of a high focal ratio).
> 
> But English is what it is, and "fast" it will be when it opens really wide.


I've always thought that a lens with a wide max aperture was called fast because the wider aperture allowed faster shutter speeds. But that's just my guess.


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## Ian_of_glos (Mar 29, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> I was totally stumped aswell. All of the reviews I had read about the lenses praised their auto focus. Glad to hear yours have been working perfectly. I never would have felt the need to buy the R if I had a similar experience.
> 
> Agreed, I may have just been unlucky with the body. It was sent back and forth to Canon at least 5 times for calibration but it never improved. All of my testing was in good lighting with no focus and recompose. My 5D mark iii performed signifcantly better as did my EOS R. So there wasn't much doubt.
> 
> ...


Yes - I meant the EF 50mm F1.2L. There are many reports that the focussing on this lens is not always perfect, and it took me 3 attempts to find a copy I was happy with.
So far I have continued to use my 5D mark 3 and mark 4. The EOS R seems like a backward step to me, but maybe the much talked about R5 will finally convince me to buy a mirrorless camera giving me access to some of the interesting RF lenses that are already available.


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## SteveC (Mar 29, 2020)

BillB said:


> I've always thought that a lens with a wide max aperture was called fast because the wider aperture allowed faster shutter speeds. But that's just my guess.



That's exactly where it did come from. And it made sense at the time because there was no other conceivable meaning for the word "fast" when it comes to lenses. Now there is, and I think those alternate possible meanings are more intuitive...but they're precluded because "fast" still means this--a reference to the effect of the lens on the shutter speed, not something in the lens itself.


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## Rule556 (Mar 31, 2020)

dominic_siu said:


> For me: 350D->5D2->5D4->R



I went AE1 --> Rebel XS --> 6D --> R

This is fun!


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## Czardoom (Apr 2, 2020)

OverTheHill said:


> I have an EOS R. Most of the time I really like it. This past week I have been out shooting birds. The EVF is really dark in the bright sunlight, the auto focus is slow and the EVF has a lag. The R5 I'm guessing will correct 2 of the 3 problems but any word on them upgrading the EVF?



The first thing I have done with every mirrorless camera that I have owned, is to set the EVF display to the brightest setting, which has always done a good job in making the EVF match outdoor conditions pretty well. That would be my recommendation. If you have never changed the display brightness setting, be aware that the setting in the menu will change either the viewfinder or the back display depending on which you are looking through (or at). In other words, you need to be looking through the EVF to change the settings for the EVF.


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## OverTheHill (Apr 2, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> The first thing I have done with every mirrorless camera that I have owned, is to set the EVF display to the brightest setting, which has always done a good job in making the EVF match outdoor conditions pretty well. That would be my recommendation. If you have never changed the display brightness setting, be aware that the setting in the menu will change either the viewfinder or the back display depending on which you are looking through (or at). In other words, you need to be looking through the EVF to change the settings for the EVF.


I changed both setting described in the digital manual on page 378. Tried both looking through the EVF while checking the settings and looking at the screen in back. Both were the same.


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## Starting out EOS R (Apr 2, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> The first thing I have done with every mirrorless camera that I have owned, is to set the EVF display to the brightest setting, which has always done a good job in making the EVF match outdoor conditions pretty well. That would be my recommendation. If you have never changed the display brightness setting, be aware that the setting in the menu will change either the viewfinder or the back display depending on which you are looking through (or at). In other words, you need to be looking through the EVF to change the settings for the EVF.


I had the same issue when I started using the EOS R and as you did, I adjusted the settings and they are not perfect but are much better.


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## Sporgon (Apr 2, 2020)

Del Paso said:


> I hope it too...
> Nothing beats a DSLR's viewfinder,



I agree with you, though technology; diopter adjustment, LCD overlays etc have distracted from the purity of a DSLR's viewfinder. Look through a SLR's viewfinder that had a genuine ground glass screen and nothing else - for instance my Pentax 67, and the experience is in a difference league to what we have now.


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