# Canon 70d center focus point -bug- problem



## koolman (May 14, 2014)

Hi,

I was considering upgrading from my t2i to the canon 70d. I use quite a few fast primes at 1.4 like the canon 50mm 1.4, and 35L 1.4. 

There is quite a "buzz" on the net - claiming a focus problem with the 70d when using the view finder and center point for maximum accuracy. it seems there is a quirk which does not provide sharp focus.

Can anyone confirm or negate this ? If I cannot focus like my t2i with my fast glass - then the 70d is not for me?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 14, 2014)

koolman said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was considering upgrading from my t2i to the canon 70d. I use quite a few fast primes at 1.4 like the canon 50mm 1.4, and 35L 1.4.
> 
> ...


 
Phase detect autofocus is fast, but is not as accurate as the dual pixel AF or manual AF either. I have not heard of any issues, do you have links to reliable testers that found a issue? Usually it is lens related, some lenses do not focus reliably or accurately. Be sure that the tester is experienced and knows what he is doing. Beware of posts on forums where testers make incorrect assumptions or use lenses that may not be consistent.

I've yet to see any expert reports of a issue that is repeatable using good lenses.

Here are some links to people who know what they are doing. 

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/02/27/canon-dual-pixel-cmos-af-autofocus-secrets-of-the-canon-70d-explained

DP Review did a lot of testing and has some remarks specifically about AF accuracy.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-70d/12


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## koolman (May 15, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> koolman said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...



Here are links about this:

Canon 70D- Serious Focusing Problem!

Canon 70D Focusing Issue


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## neuroanatomist (May 15, 2014)

koolman said:


> Here are links about this:



Well, the first video is a useless joke. Evidence? I see none. Zero information about the lens used, the camera settings, or the set up. The most obvious answer to that "problem" is that the lens needs AFMA – sharper with live view than with phase AF is the easiest test to determine that. I chuckled at the claim that "a good knowledge of photography" is necessary to detect the problem. That's what we call irony. :

The second video says exactly what I just said – the focus was off with the 50/1.4 at f/1.4, and AFMA corrected the problem. Duh. He then goes on to suggest there is, in fact, a problem with some cameras – but he has no evidence for that, except "some people on the Internet say"…

Were these two videos the best 'evidence' you could come up with? I think the only problems you're seeing are wetware errors – the person holding the camera is the issue.


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## Don Haines (May 15, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> koolman said:
> 
> 
> > Here are links about this:
> ...



Who would have thought that moving a camera a greater distance than the DOF would result in blurry pictures! Next thing you know, people will discover that the 1DX does not focus well with the lens cap on....


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## neuroanatomist (May 15, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Next thing you know, people will discover that the 1DX does not focus well with the lens cap on....



So _that's_ what I've been doing wrong!!!


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## alistairm1 (May 15, 2014)

check this out for a bit more detail.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1354075


Not all the people reporting issues are as poor at photography as your comments suggest.


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## neuroanatomist (May 15, 2014)

alistairm1 said:


> check this out for a bit more detail.
> 
> http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1354075
> 
> ...



Yep, lots of experts there...

Like the person who states, "I may also try on a T1i to see if FoCal can come up with an MFA number for my 50/1.4 on that." I wonder how much luck he'll have with that. :

Or all the people saying the 70D has inconsistent AF…but they're using a 50/1.8 which is one of Canon's poorest-focusing lenses. 

Or the person who states, "AFMA should generally correct across the range" of distances, which is far from true.

So, we have a few complaints on the internet, lots of poor testing by 'experts', and the known reality that in any production line there are defective units that make it past QC, so there are undoubtedly a very small number of actually defective units out there. 

That, and claims of a Canon coverup. Egad, we'd better all switch to Nikon, where that sort of thing never happens. :-X


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## alistairm1 (May 15, 2014)

Just picked a few out of 35 pages-worth.
Better just tell them all to get a 1Dx then all their problems will go away.

Just joined this forum, but it doesn't seem to be all than friendly.

I'll contact the admins to get unregistered.

Sorry to have wasted your valuable time


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## neuroanatomist (May 15, 2014)

alistairm1 said:


> Just picked a few out of 35 pages-worth.
> Better just tell them all to get a 1Dx then all their problems will go away.
> 
> Just joined this forum, but it doesn't seem to be all than friendly.
> ...



Sorry you feel that way. But honestly, I don't see anything in those 35 pages or the two videos the OP linked that are consistent with this being a widespread problem. Once you eliminate the people who don't know about or haven't tried AFMA, the people who aren't testing properly, the people who are using lenses with known AF inconsistency (Canon 50/1.8, almost every Sigma lens), and the people with unrelated issues (many of which also boil down to user error), and once you subtract the people in that 35-page thread that tested for this specific problem with their 70D and found it worked properly, you really aren't left with much of an issue. 

Particularly in _this_ thread…the OP is wondering if the 70D should not be purchased because of the 'buzz' about this 'problem'. I see no reason to avoid the 70D over this non-issue.

*alistairm1*, are _you_ experiencing AF issues with your 70D? If so, what steps have you performed to identify and troubleshoot the issue?


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## alistairm1 (May 15, 2014)

I haven't bought one as I can see other people having problems with theirs.
Just as I wouldn't buy anything else which has issues reported and which doesn't seem to have any sort of fix available.

I'm sure you are the same.

Or maybe not.


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## neuroanatomist (May 15, 2014)

alistairm1 said:


> I haven't bought one as I can see other people having problems with theirs.
> Just as I wouldn't buy anything else which has issues reported and which doesn't seem to have any sort of fix available.



I'm surprised you've bought anything at all. Do you have a dSLR now? Google search for that camera and 'problems'. Do a search on anything you've bought - a car, HDTV, computer, whatever, with the word "problems" appended. I bet you'll get hundreds of thousands if not millions of hits. You'll find forums with people reporting problems of all kinds. My cars give close to a million 'problems' hits each. My HDTV gives close to 50 million 'problems' hits. Over 70 million hits for one of my laptops. My cars, TV, and laptops have worked flawlessly since the day I bought them.

Reports of problems on the internet are a very poor guide for buying choices.


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## jarrieta (May 15, 2014)

Have gone through the POTN thread and some people there are even implying that people "without" this problem do not know how to use their cameras. So, I guess the people posting excellent shots on the 70d sample thread don't know how to use their 70ds.


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## Don Haines (May 15, 2014)

alistairm1 said:


> I haven't bought one as I can see other people having problems with theirs.
> Just as I wouldn't buy anything else which has issues reported and which doesn't seem to have any sort of fix available.
> 
> I'm sure you are the same.
> ...



Alistair, it does not matter which camera model you get or from which company.... you can find "experts" who claim that the camera has problems and that there is a conspiracy. Sometimes these claims are true, like the Nikon oil-on-sensor issue, but in the vast majority of cases it comes from people not knowing what they are doing or having the settings wrong.

A classic example of that is the Tamron 150-600 which came out recently. A number of users were complaining that the AF on the lens would not work, yet they had the camera set into a mode where it would quickly abandon attempts at AF and just "give up", when all they had to do was to set the mode to "continue autofocus".

Auto-focus on fast lenses is very problematic, from any company. The in-focus range of some of those lenses can be less than half of a centimeter. Any forward/backward/up/down/angle movement after you have locked on focus will take you out of focus.. You really need a tripod under those conditions. One of my favourite lenses in the 100L... the DOF on that lens is miniscule... take a picture of a bee wide open and you can't even get the whole head in focus... it's DOF is that narrow! The depth of field calculator gives me a number of <1mm.

With a fast lens used wide open, AFMA is almost essential to good focus, yet few users AFMA their lenses, and of those who do, most do not do it right and may actually be making the problem worse.


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## AlanF (May 15, 2014)

My 70D focusses very accurately and consistently with centre spot. It is much, much better than my previous 7D and as good as my 5DIII.


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## Don Haines (May 15, 2014)

I also why "30-50 percent of cameras in Germany" have this problem....

shouldn't the whole world have this problem if it exists?????


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## unadog (May 15, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> I also why "30-50 percent of cameras in Germany" have this problem....



Hysteria!! 


The second video should have taken this on much more strongly. This is just nonsense,

1. YOU CANNOT HAND HOLD AN 85 1.2 or 50 1.4 and hit your focus target consistently wide open!

2. YOU CANNOT FOCUS AND RECOMPOSE wide open! The camera needs to be locked down on a tripod for these tests. 

3. You have to learn A LOT about autofocus to understand how to accurately test your focus.

From Roger Cicala: "Why You Can't Optically Test Your Lens With Autofocus" 

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/02/why-you-cant-optically-test-your-lens-with-autofocus


4. You have to learn A LOT about autofocus to understand the different features/settings on auto focus. 

Anyone who has ever owned a 1DX, for example, will tell you that they had to study the auto focus manual for that camera to learn all of the features. And then test like hell to underastand exactly how to use it in the field.

One example: You can select and set the sensitivity of first shot "focus acquisition priority or shutter release priority."Basically - do you want the camera to ensure absolute best focus before taking a shot, or have a bias toward taking the shot no matter what? 


Then you can also tune that for subsequent shots. And that is just one of the focus modes. This is a 55 page book we are talkinmg about:

"Mastering the EOS 1D X's Autofocus System"

http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2012/1dx_guidebook.shtml


Also time to read up on more of Roger Cicala's posts on auto focus:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-1-center-point-single-shot-accuracy

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-ii-1-vs-2-and-old-vs-new

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/autofocus-reality-part-3b-canon-cameras


These people need to be educate themselves and digest that information before we can talk about an issue with the 70D. This is just the way that the world works.

When Roger tells me that there is a problem with the 70D, I will believe him. 

Cheers!


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## unadog (May 15, 2014)

jarrieta said:


> Have gone through the POTN thread and some people there are even implying that people "without" this problem do not know how to use their cameras. So, I guess the people posting excellent shots on the 70d sample thread don't know how to use their 70ds.



Ah - the dreaded "Dunning-Kruger Effect":

_"The skills needed to produce logically sound arguments, for instance, are the same skills that are necessary to recognize when a logically sound argument has been made. Thus, if people lack the skills to produce correct answers, they are also cursed with an inability to know when their answers, or anyone else's, are right or wrong. They cannot recognize their responses as mistaken, or other people's responses as superior to their own."_


_"The Dunning-Kruger effect occurs where people fail to adequately assess their level of competence — or specifically, their incompetence — at a task.

This lack of awareness is attributed to their lower level of competence robbing them of the ability to critically analyse their performance, leading to a significant overestimate of themselves. Put more crudely, they're too stupid to realize they're stupid."_


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## Luds34 (May 15, 2014)

I picked up a 70D in January. Probably a month after owning it, a good buddy (fellow 70D owner) asked me if I had heard about the "70D center point focus issue" and included a ton of links. My understanding is this is/was a legit issue for some bodies. A bad production run, a bad batch, whatever, that ended up mostly in Germany?

So of course a bit paranoid about my new toy I spent a little more time then was probably healthy reading up on this and doing some testing. I'm not a test chart shooting kind of guy. I prefer to just keep it to "real world" feel of how equipment performs. However, for this possible issue I busted out the charts, my 4 fastest lenses, shot a hundred or so shots at different distances, constantly cycling back and forth between live view and viewfinder, manually setting out-of-focus near on one shot, far on the next, taking notes, and then studying on a monitor.

Short story, final result for me? My body (and lenses) all shot fine. 

Slightly longer story, is that at first I did see a slight issue with my 28mm f/1.8 and to a lesser degree my 85mm f/1.8. Pixel peeping on the monitor showed a purple hue when using the built in phase detection while the live view phase detection did not. Even though historically I have had great luck focusing with my 28mm, I first thought maybe it was back focusing a little and needed to be compensated for. But then I realized I was exclusively lighting my subject (test charts) with daylight CFLs which can have an affect on PDAF. So I duplicated the tests during the day in with natural light and I could not reproduce the very slight mis-focus issues I was seeing the night before.

So my 70D is working great.

Oh, and to the OP, whom I believe was considering upgrading from a T2i, that is exactly what I did. Love the upgrade. My style is to shoot almost exclusively with the center point and while the 550D worked great for me, the 70D is just a step up in consistency and feels to do better in low light when it comes to focus accuracy (just comparing center point to center point). All around it's just a better experience, from the big marketing spec things like live view phase detection (works great for macro work) to just being that prosumer body with all the little things that help (rear dial, dedicated buttons for things like drive mode or BBF, top lcd). Even something as dumb as how it feels in my hands. I'll carry the 70D one handed and don't fear dropping it. The Rebel was just too small and felt like I was more pinching it with my fingers then wrapping my hand around it (granted I have large hands).

My Rebel is in a small camera bag with the 40mm pancake lens attached. The small size makes it easy to bring almost anywhere. I really wish Canon would do an EF-S 22mm or so pancake as that would make a great, compact walk around (40mm is just a little too long on crop) setup. That "old" 18 MP sensor still takes great pictures.


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## Slyham (May 15, 2014)

This issue really says one thing: DPAF rocks! Some of the videos out there are pixel peeping at 200% to notice the difference. This is not a new issue, but since live view focusing is suddenly super accurate people start to realize that phase detection AF has acceptable tolerances. That is why AFMA was created.


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## wickidwombat (May 16, 2014)

unadog said:


> jarrieta said:
> 
> 
> > Have gone through the POTN thread and some people there are even implying that people "without" this problem do not know how to use their cameras. So, I guess the people posting excellent shots on the 70d sample thread don't know how to use their 70ds.
> ...



LOL I like this post alot


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## unadog (May 16, 2014)

wickidwombat said:


> LOL I like this post alot



I suppose it is a bit mean, at least that last line is. 

But the only ones who should take offense to that are the ones who insist that "if you don't have a problem, you don't know how to use your camera." 

Just another internet conspiracy theory. Lots of talk in those threads about how widespread the problem is, how "1 in 1,000 defects is too many", how Canon is hiding it the problem, etc.

People just need to educate themselves. 

Cheers!


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## unadog (May 16, 2014)

Slyham said:


> This issue really says one thing: DPAF rocks! Some of the videos out there are pixel peeping at 200% to notice the difference. This is not a new issue, but since live view focusing is suddenly super accurate people start to realize that phase detection AF has acceptable tolerances. That is why AFMA was created.



This is a great summary!

Luds34's post was also spot on. 

I don't mean to be mean to anyone, but this is very sophisticated equipment in many ways. What people are describing as a defect is 1.) Present on every camera made, and 2.) User error ...

Cheers!


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## Logan (May 16, 2014)

Last time I checked, germany runs on 50hz power, and sometimes 41? 

Either that or a popular german youtube video causing "wind power syndrome" are my guesses as to why the conspiracy exists mainly in germany.


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## Don Haines (May 16, 2014)

Logan said:


> Last time I checked, germany runs on 50hz power, and sometimes 41?
> 
> Either that or a popular german youtube video causing "wind power syndrome" are my guesses as to why the conspiracy exists mainly in germany.



Great Britain also runs of 50Hz and the problem has not been reported there.... but then again, it could be that because Brittan is so foggy that nobody can tell if the image is out of focus.....


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 16, 2014)

alistairm1 said:


> check this out for a bit more detail.
> 
> http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1354075
> 
> ...


 
The issue is sorting out the experts, from those who do not have a clue.

There are plenty of web sites that do competent testing of products, and a few that don't. However, there are tons of people having issues with equipment who have not determined what the cause of the issue might be. Competent sites test known good lenses, and if one fails, they test three more. Since the Canon 50mm f/1.8, for example, is well known to be inconsistent in autofocusing (There is a lot of carefully done testing on this), any test using a lens like that is suspect, because of the issue that they are using a lens that is almost certainly the issue.

If you want to leave CR because experienced people are telling you something you don't want to hear, you can delete your own account, you do not need to ask a administrator.

I'd suggest that you take advantage of advice from the many good photographers on this site, and go to some of the premiere test sites and read actual test reports rather than taking posters in forums at face value. Many forums have some really good photographers, but the test sites tend to be a cut above because they have expensive software and the knowhow to avoid the pitfalls that do it your self experts step into. Some of those experts post on multiple sites, and others pick those posts up and repost links to them, and pretty soon, there are hundreds of reports that are really started by the single clueless individual.

Here are some of the well known sites that are fairly competent, and do testing on equipment that was not supplied by the manufacturer. Photography on the Net does not buy and test equipment or issue test reports. I don't bother to read their forums, there are probably some good and accurate reports among the many bad ones, its always that way. We always get a laugh when someone reports a finding by Ken Rockwell, so don't use him as a expert.

The Digital Picture

Photozone

Digital Photography Review

Lens Rentals. They have some of the most sophisticated gear of any test site, and know how to use it. They also test many copies of the same brand and model of gear, so they know when one is different from the other X hundred they tested.

Luminous Landscape (Gets Sony cameras to review from a dealer, sometimes Sony as well). They do not pull punches if a Sony camera has a issue.

Lens Tip is competent, but they get equipment loaned by manufacturers, so that always casts some doubt as to whether the equipment was hand picked for testing.


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## jarrieta (May 16, 2014)

unadog said:


> jarrieta said:
> 
> 
> > Have gone through the POTN thread and some people there are even implying that people "without" this problem do not know how to use their cameras. So, I guess the people posting excellent shots on the 70d sample thread don't know how to use their 70ds.
> ...



LOL! Nice.


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## Lightmaster (May 16, 2014)

well the 70D seems to have a center focus point bug with* some* lenses.

that´s why some people are unable to get sharp images, for example, with a 24mm f1.4 and the center AF point on a 70D.

you can´t do much wrong when your camera is on a stative and you test the same setup with a 60D and it works.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=19673.msg380127#msg380127

there are a lot of people who complain about this.. no need to add insult to injury and claim they are all idiots.


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## Lightmaster (May 16, 2014)

Logan said:


> Last time I checked, germany runs on 50hz power, and sometimes 41?
> 
> Either that or a popular german youtube video causing "wind power syndrome" are my guesses as to why the conspiracy exists mainly in germany.



in fact i just checked the two main german forums i visit and yes.. i count at least 80 different people claiming to have this problem. then i stopped counting.



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Some of those experts post on multiple sites, and others pick those posts up and repost links to them, and pretty soon, there are hundreds of reports that are really started by the single clueless individual.



saying they are all the same individual is a bold claim .. but you are mr. knowitall so i guess you must know. :

they guy in the youtube video i have posted month ago is maybe not a good artist.
but he wrote countless books about canon cameras... so he knows the settings.
im not a fan of his website but in this case i don´t see what he has done wrong and why the 60D works fine in his hands but the 70D not.

especially as i watched my friend doing a similiar test with the same result.




> Lens Rentals. They have some of the most sophisticated gear of any test site, and know how to use it. They also test many copies of the same brand and model of gear, so they know when one is different from the other X hundred they tested.




and they test every camera model with every canon lens model in center AF focusing mode?
you know your reply is nonsense?

some 70D owners say their 50D or 60D work flawless with certain lenses... but the 70D not.
i have no reason to call them all liars.

please explain how these people are "experts" and good photographers when they use the 50D/60D but suddenly become clueless noobs when they use the 70D. 



> I'd suggest that you take advantage of advice from the many good photographers on this site, and go to some of the premiere test sites and read actual test reports rather than taking posters in forums at face value.



but only as longs as it fits your own opinion i guess.
DXO is not well received under canon users... all their equipment and know-how suprisingly does not change that. :


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## Lightmaster (May 16, 2014)

unadog said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > I also why "30-50 percent of cameras in Germany" have this problem....
> ...



all done in other tests.. same result: 70D does not focus correctly... 60D does.




> 4. You have to learn A LOT about autofocus to understand the different features/settings on auto focus.



so why not enlighten the noobs who have this problem?
why is it so much harder to focus with the 70D and certain lenses in AF center point mode... compared to, for example, the 60D or 50D?

i don´t have the 70D but a friend showed me the issues with his 24mm f1.4... i saw no fault in his test setup.

tripod, fixed target, same light conditions. what can an AF system ask for more?
60D was able to find the point of sharpest focus every time.
the 70D not, but with contrast AF the 70D was fine.


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## PicaPica (May 16, 2014)

[quote author=Mt Spokane Photography]

There are plenty of web sites that do competent testing of products, and a few that don't. 

I'd suggest that you take advantage of advice from the many good photographers on this site, and go to some of the premiere test sites and read actual test reports rather than taking posters in forums at face value. Many forums have some really good photographers, but the test sites tend to be a cut above because they have expensive software and the knowhow to avoid the pitfalls that do it your self experts step into. 
[/quote]

When was the last time one of the websites you mention have found a bug in one of the products they have tested? Found! Not just reported.

The light leak bug in the 5D MK3.
Not a bug some say.. yet canon has fixed it.

The "white rubber" issue.

Tons of other examples where the "Bugfinder" are ordinary people in photography forums.

A testchart and other testgear will not help you find issues outside their line of use.
Review sites are usually in a hurry to get their reviews out. Longtime tests.. who does them, beside Lensrentals?

Don´t be naive.  No review websites can test everything. 
It is the same as with car magazines.
If you would believe them no car ever would need a recall.


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## PicaPica (May 16, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> koolman said:
> 
> 
> > Here are links about this:
> ...



I guess you have not read the discussions about it?
No amount of AFMA will fix the problem.

As it was stated by Lightmaster.. that does not explain why other Canon Bodys work fine with the same lens type.

His argument that advanced Photographers do not suddenly become newbies when they use a 70D makes sense.


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## neuroanatomist (May 16, 2014)

Lightmaster said:


> 60D was able to find the point of sharpest focus every time.
> the 70D not, but with contrast AF the 70D was fine.



I have several lenses which needed 10 units or more different AFMA settings on different bodies – over a full depth of focus off. So it's easily possible that a 60D could focus correctly and a 70D could be way off with the same lens. 

In the case where the center AF point consistently misses focus, but an immediately adjacent AF point consistently achieves correct focus (assuming equivalent directional contrast for both points), that pretty clearly indicates a hardware or firmware defect. So far, I've seen one – just one – example of that.

There's also confirmation bias...one person with a defective camera posts information about it (perhaps in German on a German forum?), and suddenly many people 'find' the same problem (if they read German?), except their cameras are fine, it's their testing that's defective. 




PicaPica said:


> Tons of other examples where the "Bugfinder" are ordinary people in photography forums.



Canon doesn't care about 'bug reports' on Internet forums. Anyone who thinks their camera is defective should send it to Canon. It seems that several people have done so, and been told that their camera is within spec. A Canon 'coverup'? No, you can put away the conspiracy theories. The simple answer is their cameras weren't defective. 

When there's an issue, Canon fixes it. If a hardware issue is widespread, Canon issues a Product Advisory; firmware issues are fixed with a firmware update.


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## Don Haines (May 16, 2014)

It's the claim of 35-50 percent of people in Germany have this problem that gets me....

The logic is flawed. If the problem is so widespread in Germany, it must be the same elsewhere, so why is it not showing up elsewhere in those numbers?


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## dadgummit (May 16, 2014)

I don't know if there is a bug or not but I just purchased a new 70D from B&H last week and the center focus point works perfectly with the 85mm f1.2 and other faster than f2.8 lenses. 

Personally I am willing to bet that there are a few defective cameras out there with some kind of issue and when other people start pixel peeping their fast lenses at long distances the are surprized that the camera has issues getting a sharp f1.4 shot at 20 feet out. So they think they have the issue too. 

Whenever I shoot a wedding with low light I have the cameras in High speed continuous all the time. Out of 4 shots of the bride eating her cake maybe 2 are in perfect focus. The ironic thing is that she will often choose one of the less perfect shiots for her 8x10 and guess what it, comes out great! Pixel Peeping has made the lives of Canon's engineers in the af department very difficult.


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## unadog (May 16, 2014)

What we need to see to know if there really is a problem is an autofocus test similar to those done by Roger Cicala.

Every auto focus system will deliver a range of values. Look at how he measured the accuracy of focus on different bodies and different lenses.

He did 10 repeated focus attempts with phase detection and manual focus. Gave us the standard deviation of the focus error. 

Compared that between older Canon bodies and newer Canon bodies. And also found out that newer lenses focused more accurately.

So you need to repeat the focus test 10 times, because it will vary. Measure those errors. Use one of the newer Canon lenses. And compare that to cameras of the same class - 60D, 50D, T4i.

SHOW US THE STATISTICALICAL ANALYSIS. ACCOUNT FOR KNOWN VARIATION IN PERFORMANCE. 

Show that you understand the system well enough to demonstrate an anomoly.

Most of this is just people finally learning how auto focus works.

Please, read these articles. Then we can talk:

Roger Cicala's posts on auto focus:

Autofocus Reality Part 1

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-1-center-point-single-shot-accuracy

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-ii-1-vs-2-and-old-vs-new

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/autofocus-reality-part-3b-canon-ca


Roger Cicala: "Why You Can't Optically Test Your Lens With Autofocus" 

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/02/why-you-cant-optically-test-your-lens-with-autofocus


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## unadog (May 16, 2014)

*Roger Cicala: "Why You Can't Optically Test Your Lens With Autofocus"
*
http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/02/why-you-cant-optically-test-your-lens-with-autofocus

_To summarize my point, if I am checking a lens like our techs do all day, manual focus is simply much more accurate than phase-detection autofocus.
_


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## unadog (May 16, 2014)

More text from that article:

"*Let me again differentiate ‘testing quality focus’ from ‘picture taking focus’. 

If I was taking a 3-Dimensional picture, all of the images above the 850 line would be virtually indistinguishable. The two phase-detection shots that are lower would probably be acceptable; if you were comparing identical shots you might notice the two had slightly missed focus, but not horribly. 
*
But when we’re assessing a 2-dimensional test chart, that would be enough to make the lens look unacceptable.

*Phase detection accuracy is different with different cameras and even with different lenses on the same camera. The pair used in this example are quite accurate; not the very best, but better than average. The very best (in these conditions) we’ve tested, the Canon 5DIII or 1Dx with certain lenses, are nearly as accurate as contrast detection AF.
*

Good microfocus adjustment lets the phase detection system focus at the proper location, but it can’t make the pattern of variation much smaller. (If MF adjustment is really off, the pattern can be bigger than this, but this is about as good as it gets.)

One other point that will become more apparent with the next two posts: some of the most sensitive indicators of a decentered lens are seen when it’s just barely out of focus. So the testing I’m going to describe will require evaluating the lens both in focus, and just barely out of focus in both directions. You can’t do that kind of evaluation with phase-detection AF.

So What’s Next?

*This first post was to demonstrate that hand-held, autofocus optical testing isn’t very useful. If you want to test a lens using autofocus go take pictures and see if you like the lens, which is really what I recommend everyone do, anyway.*


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## unadog (May 16, 2014)

*OLD Lens Versus NEW Lens
*


http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-ii-1-vs-2-and-old-vs-new

The* OLD Canon 24mm f/2.8 lens was released in 1988* making it one of the oldest designed Canon lenses available.

while the *NEW Canon 24mm f/2.8 IS USM was just released last year.*

*
GRAPHS IN ORDER:

1.) The OLD 24 mm on an OLD 5D Mk2

2.) The OLD 24 2.8 on a NEW 5D M3

3.) The NEW 24 2.8 IS on a NEW 5D M3
*

Look at that last graph! Newer lenses are amazingly good on a newer body.


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## David_in_Seattle (May 16, 2014)

I rented a 70D right when it was released to compare it to my aging 60D for both photos and videos (primarily for video). I never encountered a problem using the center AF point with a fast prime (50mm f1.2, 85mm f1.2, Sigma 18-35 f1.8 ) under normal lighting conditions. Note: all cameras will have problems focusing on low contrast subjects or in poor lighting conditions; for that I recommend attaching a Canon speedlite.

When using the live view the AF phase detection system is very useful, though it also has problems focusing on low contrast subjects. I've used it to record a break dancing competition under terrible lighting conditions while using the Canon 17-55 f2.8 IS. Overall, focusing was hardly a problem whereas most of my concern was recording at ISO 3200.

Ultimately I recently decided to buy a 70D to replace my 60D. I prefer using the 70D for run and gun video recording compared to my 5Dmk3 and 1Dx because it's lighter and has a useful live view AF system.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 16, 2014)

PicaPica said:


> [quote author=Mt Spokane Photography]
> 
> There are plenty of web sites that do competent testing of products, and a few that don't.
> 
> I'd suggest that you take advantage of advice from the many good photographers on this site, and go to some of the premiere test sites and read actual test reports rather than taking posters in forums at face value. Many forums have some really good photographers, but the test sites tend to be a cut above because they have expensive software and the knowhow to avoid the pitfalls that do it your self experts step into.



When was the last time one of the websites you mention have found a bug in one of the products they have tested? Found! Not just reported.

The light leak bug in the 5D MK3.
Not a bug some say.. yet canon has fixed it.

The "white rubber" issue.

Tons of other examples where the "Bugfinder" are ordinary people in photography forums.

A testchart and other testgear will not help you find issues outside their line of use.
Review sites are usually in a hurry to get their reviews out. Longtime tests.. who does them, beside Lensrentals?

Don´t be naive.  No review websites can test everything. 
It is the same as with car magazines.
If you would believe them no car ever would need a recall.
[/quote]

All of the things you mention were investigated or reported on the major sites. I haven't heard of the light leak causing a actual issue, since you must have a lens cap on to detect it. Likewise, the white rubber issue has been around off and on for at least 30 years, and affected Minolta and Nikon most. They did not acknowledge or fix it, while 
canon did. 

Its true, tons of people find Bugs that are a issue, and 100 times more that cannot be confirmed. The issue comes when knowledgeable testers all over the world have not been able to find the issue, and even more amazing if 35% of the owners in Germany are so good at testing that they have found it.

I'm a skeptic, but there are certain people who I have followed over the past 20 years that have a good record for careful testing. Most test sites do not just test in a lab, but also test in the field, people throw up the "Real World" excuse because careful testing does not support their theory, rather than using it in conjunction with lab tests. I have had and operated a lab that did reports for Nasa, and we do look at standard tests, and certainly cannot test for everything, so having lots of users reporting issues they find is a good thing, but that does not mean that even 0.001 percent are actual problems. Most of them turn out to be operator error, or defective equipment.


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## 3kramd5 (May 16, 2014)

unadog said:


> *Roger Cicala: "Why You Can't Optically Test Your Lens With Autofocus"
> *



While Roger is correct, that has zero bearing on this topic.


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## ishdakuteb (May 16, 2014)

still remember those days before i was making a final decision to buy my canon 7d, went on internet to do bunch of research. what i got were number of complains on canon 7d focus problems. there was a little hesitate about making a final call, i decided to go to best buy and tried it myself before pulling a trigger. i ended up buying canon 7d with carrying a thought...

1. if there was focus problem found, then i would return it,
2. buying canon 7d will save the quite a bit of money for coming canon 5d mark iii

now, i am still using it without any problems so far. however, there was a time that i had focus hunt problem with canon 7d, that was the time when i was trying to focus on a humming bird:

1. In a frame with bright sky and bird was relatively kinda small in the frame,
2. With single focus point,
3. Full range of zoom, on canon 70-200mm is mark ii, was set

why was that? setup and try to see where is the problem... however, there is a easy test on this... have one person sitting by a window that lit up with a bright light, try to focus on that person to see how fast and how accurate you can nail the focus...

disclaimer: i am not a pro. nor a person who has used slr for 20 years. i am just a hobbyist sitting at home learning digital photography after working hours (yes, sometimes during work hours too lol...). my main target now is post processing, but still not forgetting about practicing everyday... sometimes with camera, sometimes with thoughts

changing a brand is not a choice to me since i do believe that if someone can deliver a good image with my current system while i am not able to, that is my fault... not learning enough... and i have invested quite a big on current setup...


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## steve25 (May 16, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> koolman said:
> 
> 
> > Here are links about this:
> ...



Have you seen these videos? are they joke as well? Some newbies experimenting with the latest game changer from Canon? http://youtu.be/_9Qm4CEjz4U. If the language is a problem, this video may help uderstanding the issue better http://youtu.be/cA6JnzYSDJE


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## neuroanatomist (May 17, 2014)

steve25 said:


> Have you seen these videos? are they joke as well? Some newbies experimenting with the latest game changer from Canon?
> 
> If the language is a problem, this video may help uderstanding the issue better


In the first video, it's often hard to tell if a resulting shot shown on the 70D's LCD is sharp or not - the video was apparently shot handheld and the cameraperson is moving back and forth a lot, so that LCD is often blurry due to poor focus of the video. A lot of newbies shoot poor video like that, then they discover something called a tripod. : I do get the gist of the problem, though. As for correcting it with AFMA, I would not expect selecting AFMA values apparently at random would be an appropriate way to see if AFMA is beneficial. The fact that he's a well-known reviewer doesn't mean he necessarily knows what he's doing. I've pointed out issues with his testing previously. 

As for the second video, perhaps you missed the update: "_I sent my 70D into the Canon Service center and now have it back. *They responded that image sensor was incorrect and electronic adjustments were made.* I have just started preliminary testing and can say that the difference between live view and viewfinder sharpness is still noticeable and sometime significant but *seems to be almost completely corrected with AF Micro Adjustments* – something that was not possible before._" 

That sounds like exactly what I stated previously…if you think your camera is defective, send it to Canon, and if they find it to be defective, they'll fix it…as they did in the case above. The difference in sharpness between Live View and SIR-PDAF is normally correctable with AFMA. 

So far, I see a couple of cameras that appear defective, one of which was repaired by Canon. Not counting a few 'me, too' Internet forum posts backed up by poor testing or none at all, it's not exactly consistent with a 'widespread problem'. If it really is a widespread issue, Canon will figure it out by cameras sent in for repair, not by posts on the Internet.


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## robbinzo (May 20, 2014)

I agree with what Neuro said regarding AFMA.
My 70D works just fine once the AFMA is set up for each of my lenses. The main issue was with my 50 f/1.4 which gives much better AF results using liveview AF. I actually now prefer to use the liveview for portraits because the dual pixel AF is so good. It is worth buying the 70D for the liveview dual pixel AF alone. Have I mentioned that the dual pixel AF rocks?
I upgraded from the 550D and it's perfect for me.


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## JAFAR (May 28, 2014)

Got 70D from US Amazon. After shooting on the field I have noticed there are issues with AF.

Dual Pixel AF is just fantastic helps in many situations but viewfinder AF is useless. 

I tried to micro adjust AF but it is even worse. 

Tested on Sigma 35mm Art, Canon 24-105mm F4.

I switch on AF points to be visible on the camera screen (in gallery mode) and 2 of 10 photos are in focus. 

on Canon lens AF problem is not easy noticeable but seems it still exists at f4.


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## MYB (May 28, 2014)

Hi, there is two topic about this, writing here too.
I have Sigma 17-70mm F/2.8-4 C there was a focus problem at wide angles. I tried with different lenses. Tamron 17-50mm F/2.8 ( i can't call it test, just a few photos ) no mistake. Canon 70-200mm F/2.8 II ( a lot of photos with different combination ) first not good but after microadjustment it's perfect. Than i retuned my Sigma 17-70mm F/2.8-4 C and tried microadjustment again. Not perfect but better. Maybe AFMA works not very well with third party lenses or i couldn't do it properly.
I figured that with my camera, single ( center ) point af works very good, all 19 point also nice but zone af not sharp. I'm not saying it can't focusing but it doesn't as sharp as center point. AF sensor is same with 7D but maybe system is different and it can't perform like the 7D. Or i'm just new with DSLR 
My opinion, I'm sure my camera is not effected.

I'm not good at English, i'm from Türkiye. Sorry if i said something wrong.


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## Tugela (Jun 5, 2014)

MYB said:


> I'm not good at English, i'm from Türkiye. Sorry if i said something wrong.



You spelled "Turkey" incorrectly. 

It is shocking when someone cannot spell the name of their own country properly!!


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## Arty (Jun 5, 2014)

I am amazed that Americans think that they can rename cities and countries for other people. He has the spelling correct in Turkish. Americans call Firenze "Florence" and Padova "Padua." Of course, the people in Italy don't know the names of their own cities, Firenze and Padova.


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## MYB (Jun 8, 2014)

Tugela said:


> MYB said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not good at English, i'm from Türkiye. Sorry if i said something wrong.
> ...



You call "Turkey" we call "Türkiye" which is more true? 



Arty said:


> I am amazed that Americans think that they can rename cities and countries for other people. He has the spelling correct in Turkish. Americans call Firenze "Florence" and Padova "Padua." Of course, the people in Italy don't know the names of their own cities, Firenze and Padova.



Thank you for understanding.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 8, 2014)

MYB said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > MYB said:
> ...



MYB, I think you will find Tugela was just making a light hearted joke, they didn't mean it as an insult, you can tell by the emoticon after the comment.


Arty, why would you assume Tugela is from the USA? Also, didn't you notice the wink emoticon, he/she was clearly making a joke. Admittedly that often translates even worse than writing as so few people seem to have a sense of humour [sic]. Oh, and the Americans are not the only people to rename foreign, to them, places in a way more suitable for pronunciation in their own language.


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## MYB (Jun 8, 2014)

I saw emoticon, i've also used emoticon. I didn't understand something wrong. No problem, we are just talking.


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## Tugela (Jun 9, 2014)

Arty said:


> I am amazed that Americans think that they can rename cities and countries for other people. He has the spelling correct in Turkish. Americans call Firenze "Florence" and Padova "Padua." Of course, the people in Italy don't know the names of their own cities, Firenze and Padova.



It depends what language you are speaking. All languages rename foreign cities and countries based on their own rules and pronunciations. No doubt the United States of America is called something else in Turkey.

Using the Turkish spelling for "Turkey" is proper when you are speaking Turkish, but when you are using English (as we are on this board), the correct spelling is "Turkey".


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## wickidwombat (Jun 9, 2014)

MYB said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > MYB said:
> ...



Don't even get me started on the ENGLISH words Americans are unable to spell correctly...


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## KeVir (Jun 26, 2014)

unadog said:


> jarrieta said:
> 
> 
> > Have gone through the POTN thread and some people there are even implying that people "without" this problem do not know how to use their cameras. So, I guess the people posting excellent shots on the 70d sample thread don't know how to use their 70ds.
> ...





LOLOLOVE IT!


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## MichaelHodges (Jun 26, 2014)

steve25 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > koolman said:
> ...




Thanks for posting. I'll look for these potential issues next week when I rent a 70d for kicks.


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## MichaelHodges (Jun 26, 2014)

JAFAR said:


> Got 70D from US Amazon. After shooting on the field I have noticed there are issues with AF.



I'm hearing this from many of my photog friends. Thanks for the head's up.


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 26, 2014)

Tugela said:


> Arty said:
> 
> 
> > I am amazed that Americans think that they can rename cities and countries for other people. He has the spelling correct in Turkish. Americans call Firenze "Florence" and Padova "Padua." Of course, the people in Italy don't know the names of their own cities, Firenze and Padova.
> ...



Who cares?


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## noncho (Aug 7, 2014)

I have 70D and yesterday I have encountered this problem with central focus point.

Sigma 18-35 1.8 lens:
Central point at 1.8, more than 50% miss
Other points at 1.8, less than 10% miss

I'm very disappointed.


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## Keith_Reeder (Aug 7, 2014)

noncho said:


> I have 70D and yesterday I have encountered this problem with central focus point.
> 
> Sigma 18-35 1.8 lens:
> Central point at 1.8, more than 50% miss
> ...



How have you set the AF menu options up?

Which AF Point mode are you using?

And AI Servo? AI Focus? One Shot?

I ask because there's a recurring theme in these discussions of user error...

I've owned a 70D for several months now, and used it pretty hard during that time - and it has performed _superbly_ at wider (f/1.8 to f/2.8 ) apertures: this is hand-holding long(er) lenses like the Sigma 70-200mm and 120-300mm (shooting birds, aircraft and fast motor sport, which are pretty significant AF challenges), and the Canon f/1.8 prime, which isn't renowned for sharpness wide open or great AF, but which is as sharp - and as consistent in focus - as I could wish for on the 70D.

Here's the thing. _All_ cameras AF (and meter) wide open: so if every single time anyone presses the shutter button your lens is wide open, how is this "problem" not manifesting at _any_ aperture?

Yet the people who reckon they're victims seem pretty clear that it's "only" at maximum aperture as they've set it. How can that be?

It strongly suggests a flawed testing regime, the normal impact on DoF of shooting wide open, and unrealistic/uninformed expectations. I've seen _no_ evidence to support any claims that there's a ubiquitous design/production flaw in the 70D.

Some obviously faulty individual cameras? Yep. Lots of user error? Yep. An inherent flaw in the camera. Nope...


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## Lightmaster (Aug 7, 2014)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Yet the people who reckon they're victims seem pretty clear that it's "only" at maximum aperture as they've set it. How can that be?



well there could be a dozend causes. 
a camera is a computer these days... all kind of strange errors can happen.

fact is that people can reproduce the error with the 70D and some(!) lenses.

and people do not become stupid when they change from a 60D, 600D (that behaves fine) to a 70D.
and no amount of AFMA on the 70D helps to solve the problem.

i have seen it myself with a 24mm f1.4 and a 70D on a tripod and studio lighting.
you can´t make it much easier for a camera to focus.

it was simply impossible to get really sharp images with the 70D, center AF, wide open apperture and phase AF.
with the the other two cameras it was no problem.
with LV it was no problem.


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## Keith_Reeder (Aug 7, 2014)

Lightmaster said:


> well there could be a dozend causes.


Give me three. 



> fact is that people can reproduce the error with the 70D and some(!) lenses.


Fact is, everything I've seen (and God knows, I've seen a lot) can easily (much _more_ easily) be explained by user error and/or a faulty camera, the existence of which nobody denies.



> and people do not become stupid when they change from a 60D (that behaves fine) to a 70D


.
Both irrelevant - I've been aware of a learning curve every time I've moved from camera to camera, 30D-40D-7D-70D, and every single time, initial concerns about AF (or whatever) have simply faded away as I've used the new body more - and apocryphal: saying "my old camera didn't do this" without (_ever_) demonstrating how they've ruled themselves out as the problem, proves _nothing_.



> i have seen it myself with a 24mm f1.4 and a 70D on a tripod and studio lighting.


_So you say_. Let's see the examples; the testing methodology; the in-camera set-up; the Exif; the before-and-after-AFMA; the evidence that the lens works perfectly on other cameras.

Again, nobody's saying that _your_ 70D might not be flakey - it happens - but it's a million miles from "my camera is faulty" to "all 70Ds are inherentely flawed"...


----------



## Lightmaster (Aug 7, 2014)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Lightmaster said:
> 
> 
> > well there could be a dozend causes.
> ...



i gave you one good one.



> Both irrelevant - I've been aware of a learning curve every time I've moved from camera to camera, 30D-40D-7D-70D, and every single time, initial concerns about AF (or whatever) have simply faded away as I've used the new body more - and apocryphal: saying "I can reproduce a problem" without (_ever_) demonstrating how they've ruled themselves out as the problem, therefore proves _nothing_.



it´s pretty irrelevant what you have seen.

you can´t say all the people who report this are stupid or unable to use a camera.
well you can but that would make you sound like an a-hole. 

and im pretty sure the learning curve is not to steep in this AF case.... :



> Aaoin, nobody's saying that _your_ 70D might not be flakey - it happens - but it's a million miles from "my camera is faulty" to "all 70Ds are inherentely flawed"...



when there is some kind of percentage of flawed cameras i call it a series issue.

personally i don´t say every 70D camera has this issue.
but i have seen the issue and i could reproduce it.

together with the reports on the internet i think there is truth in it.

especially concerning the amount of reports.
isn´t it strange that there are no other cameras who have this issue?

why does nobody has this very specific(!) issue switching from a 550D to a 60D or from a 60D to a 7D? what about the learning curve in these cases?

fact is you have done no testing yourself, right?
but you know from "past experience" and because "you have seen a lot" that it´s a user error. 

from mirror problems to light leaks there have happend other things in the past people thought not be possible.


----------



## lw (Aug 7, 2014)

Lightmaster said:


> when there is some kind of percentage of flawed cameras i call it a series issue.



And what is that percentage?

I reckon Canon have sold at least 10's of thousands of 70Ds. Probably 100's of thousands. Canon have sold in excess of 5 million DSLRs since the 70D was released. Even if the 70D was only 1% of that, it would be 50,000. But the 70D is a top seller according to places like Amazon and BCN, so it is going to be more.

Meanwhile, how many have faults? Well 10's possibly 100's have stated they have a fault in forums and elsewhere. i.e. a very tiny percentage. But as ever the silent majority who don't have faults don't post that fact.

It's a real bummer for people who have a problem with their camera, and Canon don't seem to be doing a good job of fixing it for them, or managing the situation. 

But I find no evidence to suggest that a high percentage of 70Ds have this fault, and certainly no indication that it is some inherent design fault or firmware issue - otherwise everyone would be reporting it as we all have the same hardware and firmware.

I have tried every way I can to find this fault in my camera but it stubbornly refuses to mis-focus. What I did find though was that every one of my lenses required some MFA on the 70D.

If there is a fault it is in the assembly process that appears to allow the build of misaligned cameras or the calibration routines are at fault, and in the testing process for not spotting them before they leave the factory.


----------



## Lightmaster (Aug 7, 2014)

> And what is that percentage?



good question.

another good question.. how many 70D owner would not even notice it because they only have a kit lens and no fast lenses?



lw said:


> If there is a fault it is in the assembly process that appears to allow the build of misaligned cameras or the calibration routines are at fault, and in the testing process for not spotting them before they leave the factory.



what people don´t seem to understand is that this has NOTHING to do with tolerances or AFMA.

the lenses in combination with the 70D behave fine when the working apperture is set to say f2.8 or f4.
sure the amount of error should be smaller then (greater DOF) but still visible.

and it does not happen when you don´t use the center AF point.

the fact that it only happens at wide open apperture, that no amount of AFMA helps, only the center AF is affected.... is what makes this issue so special.

*someone please tell me how this can be a user error when simply changing from the center AF to a different AF point solves it??*

in bold because this is always ignored by those who categorical speak about "user errors".


----------



## noncho (Aug 7, 2014)

Keith_Reeder said:


> noncho said:
> 
> 
> > I have 70D and yesterday I have encountered this problem with central focus point.
> ...



I have checked few times - One shot focus, near and far distance. Liveview is fine, other focus points are fine, central focus point - crap.
And the DOF on crop 18 1.8 few meters away is not a hair.

Of course I will do more tests with other lenses, but for me this is strange issue, and I bought 70D to replace my 60D for better focus...

I'm CPS member and I'm awaiting their answer what are the possibilities. 


P.S. Totally agree about the lack of fast lenses for most of the 70D owners, also many of them are probably using Auto AF, AF zones or Liveview.


----------



## lw (Aug 7, 2014)

Lightmaster said:


> what people don´t seem to understand is that this has NOTHING to do with tolerances.



Others with the problem seem to suggest differently. e.g. http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17077451&postcount=1175 where he discusses the possible misalignment of AF elements.



> the lenses in combination with the 70D behave fine when the working apperture is set to say f2.8 or f4.
> sure the amount of error should be smaller then (greater DOF) but still visible.
> 
> and it does not happen when you don´t use the center AF point.
> ...



But people with the same camera and lens combination, using it in the same way, *don't* have the problem. It is a fault with individual cameras, not _every _camera.


----------



## noncho (Aug 7, 2014)

I've made some more tests with Canon 50 1.4 and Sigma 105 2.8 OS Macro.

With 50 1.4 - good on close distance, bad central focus point with distance more than about 3 meters.

Even with Sigma 105 the problem with central focus point is there at distance.

Here is an example with 50 1.4:
Central point:
http://www.nonchoiliev.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/50-1.4-central-point.jpg
Other point:
http://www.nonchoiliev.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/50-1.4-non-central-point.jpg

It's a huge difference, many of images taken at central point focus are not usable.


----------



## noncho (Dec 9, 2014)

An update on this issue with my 70D.

Canon repaired the problem without saying what was wrong. I still have inconsistency sometimes when I shoot something with focus near to infinity (landscapes with different lenses). 
I'm getting tired to use live view on every landscape photo. I'll probably end up with migration to Samsung/Olympus system next year...


----------



## throwfirewoodatme (May 7, 2015)

Hello chaps. I can confirm this. I have owned two 70Ds. Brand new. I also have a 6D. My Sigma Art Series 50mm is perfectly sharp at the centre point from f1.4 all the way up on the 6D. On the 70D, both of them, focus is absolutely unreliable. Focus is confirmed, even on a tripod and I get different results. I used a Siemens Star to confirm and I tried micro adjustment. I can't find the centre point lens compatibility documentation other than in the manual where it says "highly accurate" I suspect this point is NOT accurate to below f2.

Sorry chaps. It is a problem. Whatever the cause.

Paul


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## Ozarker (May 7, 2015)

MYB said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > MYB said:
> ...



Just ignore him. We are not all like that. I happen to love eating turkey, but would rather visit Türkiye given the choice. Good luck to you my friend.


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## travisdeland (May 10, 2015)

There is quite a "buzz" on the net - claiming a focus problem with the 70d when using the view finder and center point for maximum accuracy. it seems there is a quirk which does not provide sharp focus.

Can anyone confirm or negate this ? If I cannot focus like my t2i with my fast glass - then the 70d is not for me?



I bought a 70D back in November 2014, and had AF problems-exchanged the camera and have been IMPRESSED ever since. Personally, I find the AF on the 70D outperforms the my disappointing 7D2.


----------



## pvalpha (May 11, 2015)

travisdeland said:


> I bought a 70D back in November 2014, and had AF problems-exchanged the camera and have been IMPRESSED ever since. Personally, I find the AF on the 70D outperforms the my disappointing 7D2.


As an owner of a 7DmII I can say without a doubt my first body was flawed on all my lenses. It hit focus... but the images were still "smeared" slightly, the best word I can come up with is "unsharp". When shooting the subjects I bought the body for - dogs and birds in motion... I didn't have a single good picture. No amount of microfocus adjustment or manual focus testing could find a "sweet" spot that would stick. Even things that looked like they were in focus, when you pixel-peeped, showed signs of "smearing" - especially on specular reflections/highlights from bumpy materials (wet dog's nose, for example, certain kinds of flowers/leaves). My 10D produced better quality pictures - even though it couldn't hope to match pixel count. 

My second body is spot on perfect - with all my lenses. No Microfocus adjustments necessary. And the IQ is vastly superior, and my 10D really shows its age in comparison. As for *my* skills, those aren't perfect.  But that can always improve. 

I can't speak to the 70D's problems because I don't own one. But if people see similar problems with the focus on their images... Considering how close the sensors are in specification its possible that they share some assembly values and those assembly values would affect focus systems. If it were a design flaw for either camera the problem would be across the board and they would have likely delayed shipment because QC (no matter how sporadic) would have had to catch it. Since it isn't and since we're all finding samples of bodies that work excellently in the face of people who are experiencing problems it could be that one of Canon's plants has a QC issue that needs to be addressed. 

Any company can have Quality Control issues. I only hold it against the company when they refuse to address them appropriately or take responsibility for their existence. So far Canon seems to be fixing those examples that have issues for the 7DmII, or people were like me and had the ability to exchange their body at the dealer for a new one that appears to be working flawlessly. So Canon still has my loyalty. YMMV.


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## Greg B (Nov 4, 2015)

Hi All

I have registered to forum mainly to reply on this particular thread and share with you my experience about my 70d.

My previous camera was EOS 500d which I used with kit Lens 18-55mm , 1.4 50mm USM & 55-250mm IS. Due to accidental damage to 500d body I have decided to purchase a new Canon and I have chosen 70d. 

I didn't hesitate much, I always had Canon cameras so didn't consider Nikon or any other brands. I haven't even read many reviews, just comparison to Nikon D7200. After all I wanted Canon anyway!

My wife found high street retailer , UK canon dealer who gave us extra £70 off from retail price plus Canon Cash back which resulted in final price of around £620. I am writing about it only to clarify that camera was from main dealer not Honk Kong or any other sources.

Brand new camera and my beloved 50mm 1.4 Canon lens. I was expecting my first photo to be really nice, or at least as good as normally was when I used 500d. It wasn't. 
Fixed central focus point like always, camera set to automatic 'P' mode, not too dark kitchen and I tried to take a portrait of my son at least 10 times and his face was always a bit blurred. Camera was always focused on his eye. Randomly on some photos objects just next him were sharp, but none of the points on his face. It was unpleasant surprise but I wasn't worried yet. I got really worried when the same happen in few different scenarios, however all indoor, all at high aperture, using viewfinder and central focus point. 


I googled a problem and found a lot about it in a fraction of second.

Next day after my purchase was Sunday so I couldn't go back to retailer who sold me a camera but I went to Jessops & John Lewis to play with other 70Ds. Similar impression. 

Next Monday I went to Canon dealer and explained problem, they offered to swap my 70D body to another one which they expected to be delivered same week. 

Due to my holiday leave I received new 70d few days after my visit. I have taken hundreds of photos, I have tried micro adjustment, still no luck. 
Picture sharpness was so random at high aperture (1.4-2.0) that I have finally gave up and after 3 days of testing it I returned camera to dealer.

In all fairness camera worked brilliant with other slower lenses. It produced very nice and sharp pictures with 18-55mm & 55-250mm. They were mainly outdoor photos so hard to compare.

After this I am very disappointed with Canon but I am hoping that 80d will be released soon and will not inherit 70d focusing issues.


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## Proscribo (Nov 4, 2015)

You had Canon's 50mm/1.4? Because I have that same lens (with 70D) and indeed, the results in 1.4-2.X are totally random - and that's because of the lens. I have done some small measurements and found out that I needed about +13 AFMA at closest focusing distances and +19 at longer distances, and it still wouldn't focus perfectly every time. Also that lens isn't really sharp at those widest apertures so it gets even more difficult to really get that as sharp as possible. HOWEVER: I'm not 100% sure whether there is something wrong with my 50mm lens?

I had these same problems with my 550D from day one and found out that I just had to live with it... MF or liveview focusing was the way to go if one required well focused shots. In low-light that misfocus wasn't that big of a problem since noise already mushed pics pretty much.

I just wish canon would release that new 50mm/1.4 already.. gosh. I also have EF-S17-55/2.8, Sigma 70-200/2.8, Sigma 105mm/2.8 and 100-400L I and the all focus really nicely at widest apertures (especially after small AFMA tuning). I also consider that 17-55mm to be much sharper and much, MUCH more accurate than the 50mm. It still amazes me how well it focuses and how sharp the images look even at 2.8 (at 4-5.6 it is simply astonishing).


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## Greg B (Nov 5, 2015)

Hi Proscribo

Yes I have Canon EF 50mm 1:1.4 USM. Honestly it worked very well with my old 500d. I used it a lot indoor and never had such random results like with 70d.
I am not professional photographer and my hand is not perfectly steady, I am aware of it so used tripod or solid support at later stage of testing.

My best MF setting was 10+ but as you mentioned, it only worked in specific range (short distance in my case). Once I have realised it I gave up with MF adjustment because it is ridiculous to change MF value each time circumstances change!


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## hmatthes (Nov 6, 2015)

Only have one lens faster than f/2.8. tested my 70D with all the 2.8 glass and found no difference between viewfinder AF and LCD AF -- but the one faster lens had a very slim difference -- had to "pixel peep" in order to detect it. 
The micro adjust was easy. Problem solved.
I suspect any dual-pixel body might have this issue. Easy fix for each lens wider than 2.8


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## Greg B (Nov 8, 2015)

I didn't really compare it to Live view. I don't use it, always shoot with view finder.


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## beforeEos Camaras (Nov 8, 2015)

Greg B said:


> I didn't really compare it to Live view. I don't use it, always shoot with view finder.



hate to say it you have too. don't own a 50 1.4 but I do own a 501.8mk1 and the 85 1.8 canon lens find them razor sharp on portraits. focused on the eye wide open with a 70d with no micro adjustment needed these are my fastest lens. I also have a number of 2.8 lens that work fine less pixel peeping. btw I normal shoot ovf with the tilt screen facing in the back of the camera as it give me the feel of my old fd film backs with a few extras diles and buttons.


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## eninja (Nov 8, 2015)

I have comment on this topic a lot of times in different threads.
I have a 70D and EF 50mm F1.2L

All I can say is, view finder AF with 50L is crazy.. AF is crazy, by crazy I mean, its totally random, on all AF points.
I use FoCal micro adjustment tool, but still its crazy (pure random).

Until I gave up. but I still keep as backup, as there's is no cheaper choice back up for a 6D, and I use it for video.
I consider it a fail when using 50L.


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## ashmadux (Nov 14, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> koolman said:
> 
> 
> > Here are links about this:
> ...



Dude, cmon...google it. There is tons of tests about it. The viewfinder AF is not great. I thought this forum was better than "youre the problem" dpreview nonsense.

I did a ton of research on this a while back...after sending back a defective unit...and the last info i found basically iterated that the particulars of the super excellent live view system is actually the cause of the not so excellent standard af.

Personally I wouldn't debate you on it..if you dont believe, that's your business. The info is out there. Lastly if you dont have experience with the camera than maybe your input isnt that valuable anyways.

my 2c


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## risc32 (Nov 14, 2015)

Dude, I feel that simply saying" viewfinder AF " has me putting you down as a nitwit.google it? As has already been explained, you can find anything you want on the internet, doesn't mean it's accurate or valid.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 14, 2015)

ashmadux said:


> Dude, cmon...google it. There is tons of tests about it. The viewfinder AF is not great. I thought this forum was better than "youre the problem" dpreview nonsense.
> 
> I did a ton of research on this a while back...after sending back a defective unit...



Do you have a car? Google the make/model with "transmission problems" after it. OMG, dude...your car must be about to die!

You had a defective unit, that's unfortunate. Others do, too – it happens. Defective units do not necessarily mean a design flaw, unless you believe everything you read on the Internet. But maybe you do.

As to the content of my post (from 1.5 years ago!), I stand by it. Regardless of whether or not there's a problem, a flawed test fails to demonstrate anything meaningful. 




ashmadux said:


> my 2c



Worth every penny, thanks!


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## ashmadux (Nov 15, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> ashmadux said:
> 
> 
> > Dude, cmon...google it. There is tons of tests about it. The viewfinder AF is not great. I thought this forum was better than "youre the problem" dpreview nonsense.
> ...



At least try to be rational? I think you assume too much- whatever works for you. I came across the info that I actually put effort to find after my experience...mine was unusable, quite a different situation than what the OP is discussing. So it didn't color my thinking at all. That's what I said. Your just being lazy minded.

And not funny. Lame.

Kanpai


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 15, 2015)

ashmadux said:


> At least try to be rational? I think you assume too much- whatever works for you. I came across the info that I actually put effort to find after my experience...mine was unusable, quite a different situation than what the OP is discussing. So it Lazy minded – letting people on the Internet form your condidn't color my thinking at all. That's what I said. Your just being lazy minded.
> 
> And not funny. Lame.
> 
> Kanpai



Rational? How long has the 70D been out? If there was actually a widespread, documented issue then where is the Service Notice issued by Canon to address it? Assuming such an issue exists based on your 'extensive research on the Internet', particularly in this age of reblogging and retweeting – that is a good example of being irrational, just as letting people on the Internet form your conclusions for you is a good example of being lazy-minded. Sorry you wasted your 'effort'. 

It's a bit early for sake in my part of the world, enjoy yours...


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## speezy (May 3, 2016)

Not to bring up an old and debated topic again but..

Are people still having AF inconsistencies with wide aperture lenses using the center AF point with more recently purchased 70Ds, refurbs in particular? I read that it might not be as prevalent in more latter batches but havent seen much out there lately. I ask because the refurbs have gone down in price quite significantly and I'm considering buying, but I'd rather not have to deal with a potential issue.


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