# This momma is looking to buy a camera ?



## Lesuediane (Oct 28, 2013)

I've been reviewing and reading for months now and still can't come to a solid decision . I'm a momma looking to buy a nice camera to take pictures of mostly my son with . I would like to be able to record video and take pics at the same time. I don't want to need a newer camera with more features later. Would like to spend around 700ish .. Would like touch screen if that would be easier to use ... I've been told to just get a t3 but I feel I will outgrow it quickly .. I've been leaning towards a 60d... I'm in need of some major direction.. Hopefully I can find it here . Thanks to everyone who helps ;-)


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 28, 2013)

A camera that has the features that you describe is the Canon SL1 or Canon 100D (depending on country). It is small and light compared to competitors, and the picture is very good. It has intuitive menu and LCD touchscreen. Furthermore, it comes with a good lens for normal use (18-55 STM) and you can use other lenses such as the Canon 55-250 STM which is great.


----------



## Swphoto (Oct 28, 2013)

What camera do you currently use? What shortcomings are you trying to improve by upgrading? Are you interested in carrying around multiple lenses and taking the time to swap them when needed?


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 28, 2013)

I currently use my phone  .. I want a nice photo I can look back to years from now .. Don't really want to switch out lens too much ...


----------



## unfocused (Oct 28, 2013)

The 60D, SL1 and most of the recent Rebels all have essentially the same 18 megapixel sensor, so the quality of the pictures will be about the same. It's the other features that differentiate them so it's best to do some reading up on the various features and see which ones you would like and use. 

The 60D is a great buy right now because it has been replaced by the 70D but is still quite available. Check out the Canon refurbished store as well. Right now they are running a coupon special (details at CanonPriceWatch.com). But, be sure and compare new prices as well, as on some models, from some retailers, new is almost as cheap.

Consider a bundle with the 55-250 EFS lens along with the kit 18-55 lens. Do not, I repeat, do not buy a bundle with one of the 70-300 mm zooms, the 55-250 is a much better lens and has image stabilization.


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 28, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> I currently use my phone  .. I want a nice photo I can look back to years from now .. Don't really want to switch out lens too much ...


If you do not want to keep changing lens, depending on the type of picture, it is better to buy the camera kit with SL1 and lens 18-135 STM, which has longer zoom and is not too heavy. To make photos and video at the same time is recommended to use memory card "Sandisk class 10" because it is capable of recording at high speeds without getting catching. I see no advantages in 60D, for the use you plan to make.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 28, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> I've been reviewing and reading for months now and still can't come to a solid decision . I'm a momma looking to buy a nice camera to take pictures of mostly my son with . I would like to be able to record video and take pics at the same time. I don't want to need a newer camera with more features later. Would like to spend around 700ish .. Would like touch screen if that would be easier to use ... I've been told to just get a t3 but I feel I will outgrow it quickly .. I've been leaning towards a 60d... I'm in need of some major direction.. Hopefully I can find it here . Thanks to everyone who helps ;-)


 
I do not think that you will want a full size DSLR, the complex features are likely more than you need, lenses are large, and its just big.

Smaller cameras now are able to capture supurb images. The Canon EOS "M" can be found for much less than your target price, and with the 18-22mm zoom, you won't have to change lenses unless you want a telephoto. You can get a adapter and use any canon lens with it if you want a telephoto.

Another good choice is a G15.

*Thru Nov 2*, Canon is having a sale on used refurbished cameras. They have a 1 year warranty, you can return them within 14 days if you don't like them. They are generally like new, I've bought many that way, and have been happy with all of them.

Use code *ZOMBIE2143* in checkout and get 20% off! This applies to most cameras and lenses in the store, only a few high end DSLR's are held back.

Many have already sold out, but you should find what you want for a very good price.

For Example, a G15 is $323, a G1 X $468, a T5i with 18-135mm STM lens is $672 (You won't need to change lenses with this one, and the touch screen is nice)., You can get that T3 with lens you mentioned for $287! (Its very Old but still sold), the Smaller SL1 with lens for $480.

http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/refurbished-products?cm_mmc=EM-_-ES-_-131014-_-LeadIn&WT.mc_id=EM1310ES14013&RID=1-DPPX6A&CON=1-2WYL-1665&PRO=&CID=1-DMK96B


----------



## Ruined (Oct 28, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> I've been reviewing and reading for months now and still can't come to a solid decision . I'm a momma looking to buy a nice camera to take pictures of mostly my son with . I would like to be able to record video and take pics at the same time. I don't want to need a newer camera with more features later. Would like to spend around 700ish .. Would like touch screen if that would be easier to use ... I've been told to just get a t3 but I feel I will outgrow it quickly .. I've been leaning towards a 60d... I'm in need of some major direction.. Hopefully I can find it here . Thanks to everyone who helps ;-)



I would recommend in the $700 range a Rebel SL1 with 18-135mm STM lens (it has touchscreen). The 60D is good at stills but very poor at video compared to the Rebel SL1, and the recommendation someone made earlier of EOS-M even more weak in comparison with especially weak lens selection.

If you can stretch the budget to $1400 (that includes lens), the 70D would be the ideal camera as it is intermediate level and would last you for years. It has the new Dual Pixel superfast Autofocus system which makes videos look outstanding, phase autofocus from the pro 7D camera, new sensor with lower noise for stills, as well as a lot of other high end features. If you are serious about really getting into things and want a camera for years to come, I'd highly recommend stretching your budget and getting a 70D + 18-135mm STM. 70D has touchscreen + wifi/gps (for phone upload) as well; sl1 has touchscreen but lacks wifi/gps. But, if 70D is completely out of pricerange, then SL1 it is! 

Rebel SL1: http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_rebel_sl1_18_55mm_is_stm_lens_kit
EOS 70D: http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_70d


----------



## SirClownfish (Oct 28, 2013)

Since you mentioned video as a priority, look at cameras with continuous AF during video and an STM lens. The continuous AF will make it easier to keep the subject in focus and the STM motor in the lens will generally be quieter and smoother than a non-STM lens. The T4i, T5i, SL1, and 70D have continuous AF. As for 18-55mm vs 18-135mm, I would lean more toward the 18-135, unless you don't think you'll need the extra zoom range. Whatever combo you decide, I would also recommend a 50mm f/1.8 II lens. It doesn't have STM, but it's cheap and will be great for low light photos.


----------



## Halfrack (Oct 28, 2013)

unfocused said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > I do not think that you will want a full size DSLR, the complex features are likely more than you need, lenses are large, and its just big.
> ...



I don't believe this is the case, as I would give the same advice to a new father. The whole thought that giving someone a DSLR as the answer to their needs is wrong. Kids are fast, and a G15/G1x is a perfect high end camera option that will fit in the diaper bag along with everything else that you get to carry in addition to a kid. The more pocketable the better.


----------



## distant.star (Oct 28, 2013)

unfocused said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > I do not think that you will want a full size DSLR, the complex features are likely more than you need, lenses are large, and its just big.
> ...



Maybe sexist. Mostly it rankled me as elitist, but that's not a surprise.

One question I'd ask is if the original poster intends to do a lot of printing. If you're just shooting for the screen five or 10 years from now, that can have implications for necessary image quality being delivered by the equipment. If she wants to be doing a lot of print albums, photo books, cards, etc., she'll need something that provides best image quality.


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 28, 2013)

All the feedback is very helpful. Yes I will be doing printing from the camera .. I do alot of scrapbooking and want photos for christmas and birthday cards etc,....Didn't know about the rotating screen either .. Feedback on that would be great too.


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 28, 2013)

distant.star said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...



Yes I will printing photos . Also what are your thoughts on the rotating screen ?


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 28, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> distant.star said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...


This is articulated LCD on T5i model, not the SL1. Cameras are very similar in features and quality, SL1 being lighter and small.


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 28, 2013)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Lesuediane said:
> 
> 
> > distant.star said:
> ...





Yes ;-) do you think this is an option that we be useful to me ? Someone also told me they felt the sl1 would break easily if it did take a fall ... Being that it is smaller .


----------



## mrzero (Oct 28, 2013)

The swivelling screen is really handy with kids. They are low to the ground and you will want to take low-angle pics of them frequently. It is a lot easier to just hang the camera low and swivel the screen up for viewing than it is to get down on the ground all the time. 

I have a G1X and a Rebel, and I will say that the G1x is very handy in family situations. It is compact (not pocketable, but one-small-bag compact). The images are great quality. The AF can be tricky in low light, but most of the time it works very well. 

I have an older Rebel, so the live-view on mine does not compare to the live-view operations of the newer cameras (T4i, T5i, 70D, SL1). I would love to hear somebody compare the G-series AF to the live-view AF on these newer cameras. 

Lots of folks on here jump right into recommending DSLRs, but the DSLR vs fixed-lens/point-n-shoot decision is not always automatically in favor of DSLRs. Besides, if you buy a G-series or an S110/S120, you can always add a DSLR later and keep the compact camera, too. They both have their purposes.


----------



## Don Haines (Oct 28, 2013)

My advice is to ignore any comments you read about "this camera is way to complicated" No matter how complex the camera is, you can put it into the AUTO mode and it will work great. As you get more used to the camera and want to learn/play with advanced operations then you can. As skills progress you can grow with a more advanced camera.... with a simple camera you will be restricted by it's limitations.

There is no shame in using a camera in the auto mode. There has been a lot of time/money/research that has gone into making the auto mode very good. The only shame is being to proud or elitist to use all the tools availiable to you.

The big thing that the 60D and 70D have over the rebels is the ergonomics. Once you get to the point where you start adjusting F-stop and shutter speed manually, you will really appreciate the shoulder display and extra controls. Image quality is comparable across the line.... there really isn't a big difference.

Some form of editing software like Lightroom will have more impact on your photos than the camera... If you shoot in RAW and frame a bit wider than you need, you can use Lightroom to adjust the framing and the colors afterwards... this is the digital equivalent of the darkroom and it is a very powerful step in creating great images... it also allows you to correct mistakes with things like the wrong color balance or to shift exposures and light levels afterwards....


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 28, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> My advice is to ignore any comments you read about "this camera is way to complicated" No matter how complex the camera is, you can put it into the AUTO mode and it will work great. As you get more used to the camera and want to learn/play with advanced operations then you can. As skills progress you can grow with a more advanced camera.... with a simple camera you will be restricted by it's limitations.
> 
> There is no shame in using a camera in the auto mode. There has been a lot of time/money/research that has gone into making the auto mode very good. The only shame is being to proud or elitist to use all the tools availiable to you.
> 
> ...



I feel that for a little more money I could get a 60d ... Not really sure what the difference in the rebel lines are compared to the 50,60,70d besides it being a full frame camera ? I don't see what the advantages are ?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 28, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> I feel that for a little more money I could get a 60d ... Not really sure what the difference in the rebel lines are compared to the 50,60,70d besides it being a full frame camera ? I don't see what the advantages are ?



The 60D isn't full frame, it's got an APS-C sensor (and one that's nearly identical to that found in the T2i - T5i and the SL1). The advantages of the 60D are better build (stronger body, some weathersealing), better ergonomics (more controls, top LCD display), faster frame rate, etc. 

But for video, the T5i or SL1 will allow autofocus during video capture, something the 60D does not. The 70D would be the bset of both worlds, but more costly.



Halfrack said:


> Kids are fast, and a G15/G1x is a perfect high end camera option that will fit in the diaper bag along with everything else that you get to carry in addition to a kid. The more pocketable the better.



You're right, kids are fast. The G-series takes approximately 0.7 s between fully pressing the shutter button and the image being captured. In that time, the moment you wanted to capture of your fast moving kids has passed. Did I mention the 1 fps in RAW shooting? Pocketable is good. Able to capture the moment is a lot better.


----------



## KyleSTL (Oct 28, 2013)

I would say the 70D would be a good fit if you are going to be doing a lot of videos. The highly advanced dual-pixel AF allows the user to focus on composition and movement more than pulling focus. Get STM lenses (18-55 STM, 40 STM, 18-135 STM, 55-250 STM) and you basically have the most advanced camcorder on the market. You might be happy with the other AF-C capable cameras in movie mode, but you can't do better than the 70D in the Canon lineup (or arguably in anyone's lineup). As long as it isn't breaking the bank, 70D is the way to go in my opinion.


----------



## Don Haines (Oct 28, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > My advice is to ignore any comments you read about "this camera is way to complicated" No matter how complex the camera is, you can put it into the AUTO mode and it will work great. As you get more used to the camera and want to learn/play with advanced operations then you can. As skills progress you can grow with a more advanced camera.... with a simple camera you will be restricted by it's limitations.
> ...



I shoot with a 60D... It has seen almost 4 years of rugged use and still works great.. I do not shoot a lot of video with it but it does passable images.... but forget about autofocus on the video.... The T5i and the 70D are far more capable cameras for video.... I have a little waterproof p/s camera that does better video than my 60D...

The 60D is an old design, the 70D beats it in every way... the T5i either beats it or ties it in every way but one.... the shoulder display and extra controls on the 60D have better ergonomics than the T5i. If you are using the camera in manual or semi-manual modes this makes a big difference, but if you shoot in program modes or automatic it makes no difference.... plus, both the T5i and the 70D have touchscreens as well... I am told that once you get used to them you will love them... 

If video is important to you, I would say either a T5i or a 70D... but the 70D is starting to get a bit expensive....


----------



## Ruined (Oct 28, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> I feel that for a little more money I could get a 60d ... Not really sure what the difference in the rebel lines are compared to the 50,60,70d besides it being a full frame camera ? I don't see what the advantages are ?



PHOTOS: BEST >> 70D >> T5i = T4i = 60D >> SL1 >> WORST

VIDEOS: BEST >> 70D >> T5i = T4i >> SL1 >> 60D >> WORST

Basically the 60D is great for photos, but not good at all for videos due to lack of continuous autofocus; the 60D is also the only camera out of all of the above that does NOT have a touchscreen. The SL1 is decent for photos though AF for stills could be better, but much better in videos than the 60D due to its continuous AF. While you will likely still get some good still shots using the AF in the SL1, the lack of continuous autofocus in the 60D is going to make it tough to get good videos. Thus I'd give the overall advantage to the SL1 slightly since you said you wanted to take videos in addition to photos.

If you can spend more... the 70D clearly dominates everything else, and the t5i/t4i are both a clear notch above the SL1/60D. The t5i/t4i are both pretty much the same camera. The problem is a t5i/t4i+lens (go for the 18-135mm STM) will likely be in the $800-$1000 range while a 70D will be in the $1200-1400 range. So both of these options will exceed your budget.

If you can exceed your budget, the 70D is your best bet, followed by the T5i/T4i. If you can't, the SL1 is probably best because the 60D isn't so hot at video. Also, the SL1 may be easier to operate because it has a touchscreen.


----------



## brad-man (Oct 28, 2013)

I am not aware of any meaningful difference between the T4i and the T5i, other than price. Your best lower cost solution would be the T4i + EF-S 18-135 STM IS. You can pick up the kit from directly from Canon as a refurb (good as new with 1 year warranty) for $588 (with coupon code ZOMBIE2143). This is a very capable combination for stills and video:

http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/331230?WT.mc_id=C126149

The next step up would be the new 70D with the same lens (too new to be available refurbished) for $1400 from an unauthorized dealer Big Value via ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=231078556883&item=231078556883&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466

or from an authorized dealer such as B&H Photo for retail $1549:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/986391-REG/canon_8469b016_canon_eos_70d_dslr.html?sub=cpw&sid=cpw-13752347

Good luck & happy shooting!


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 28, 2013)

I want to reply to everyone with a big Thank. You. . I'm still researching as my husband says if we spend this much money he " wants a full blown essay on why the camera we are going to buy is the best for me " lol everyone's comments are easier to understand rather than reading specs about them . I still have a lot to learn ... Could anyone point me in the right direction of an informational website showing about ISO and aperture and all the other things I will have to learn to adjust . And thank you all once again !!!


----------



## lux (Oct 28, 2013)

I thought I'd throw out one more idea:

If you are not sure about whether you want to get a dslr or a point and shoot...how about buying a good waterproof/crushproff point and shoot. If you find yourself liking it and taking lots of pictures and wishing you had more control over the photos then you could be a dslr and no feel like you wasted money since the rugged point and shoot can be used at times where a dslr is a poor choice. I love mine, it has a little camera life jacket and when camping, while I use my 6d and 70-200 for a lot of photos, when you are in the river having the point and shoot is awesome and it takes video too. 

Of course I also have a 55-250 older lens and a 2ti I keep in a dry bag in the canoe to take out for wildlife etc.


----------



## Don Haines (Oct 28, 2013)

brad-man said:


> I am not aware of any meaningful difference between the T4i and the T5i, other than price. Your best lower cost solution would be the T4i + EF-S 18-135 STM IS. You can pick up the kit from directly from Canon as a refurb (good as new with 1 year warranty) for $588 (with coupon code ZOMBIE2143). This is a very capable combination for stills and video:
> 
> http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/331230?WT.mc_id=C126149
> 
> ...


Brad-Man is quite right.... The only difference between the two is that the mode dial on the T5i spins all the way around....If you can find a T4i you get every bit as good of a camera as the T5i, but save $$$$.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 28, 2013)

Ruined said:


> VIDEOS: BEST >> 70D >> T5i = T4i >> SL1 >> 60D >> WORST
> 
> ... the t5i/t4i are both a clear notch above the SL1/60D.



Can you explain why you rank the T5i/T4i over the SL1 for video? I would think just the opposite, if one is planning to AF during video. The Hybrid CMOS AF of the T5i/T4i is limited to the center of the frame, whereas the Hybrid CMOS AF II of the SL1 covers most of the frame.


----------



## takesome1 (Oct 28, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Ruined said:
> 
> 
> > VIDEOS: BEST >> 70D >> T5i = T4i >> SL1 >> 60D >> WORST
> ...



Wasn't my statement but when it comes to small children I would say flip screen for the win for video.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 28, 2013)

takesome1 said:


> Wasn't my statement but when it comes to small children I would say flip screen for the win for video.



Personally, I'd pick *in focus* for the win (especially with the generally thinner DoF of dSLR video). 

But I should also say that I don't shoot video of my kids with my dSLR, but with my Vixia HF M41 camcorder (good quality, and smaller/lighter than most of my lenses, plus dedicated accessories like a mini-hotshoe directional mic from which the sound gets directly recorded in the footage with no extra cord). The camcorder ergonomics are better for video, too.


----------



## takesome1 (Oct 28, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > Wasn't my statement but when it comes to small children I would say flip screen for the win for video.
> ...



That cracked me up, "in focus for the win". I have a t4i and the focus in video mode works just fine. I guess the t4i still wins.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 28, 2013)

takesome1 said:


> That cracked me up, "in focus for the win". I have a t4i and the focus in video mode works just fine. I guess the t4i still wins.



Do you find it works well with your subject off-center, too? Or do you just always keep your subject centered? :


----------



## takesome1 (Oct 28, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > That cracked me up, "in focus for the win". I have a t4i and the focus in video mode works just fine. I guess the t4i still wins.
> ...



I just gave it a try, honestly I haven't paid attention. It worked fine and would focus on subjects to the side. Just touch on the touch screen the point you want. Although the noise is annoying.

But you are right in suggesting a camcorder. DSLR's are not the best at video. The OP did say they wanted a camera that could do both.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 28, 2013)

takesome1 said:


> I just gave it a try, honestly I haven't paid attention. It worked fine and would focus on subjects to the side. Just touch on the touch screen the point you want. Although the noise is annoying.
> 
> But you are right in suggesting a camcorder. DSLR's are not the best at video. The OP did say they wanted a camera that could do both.



Good to know. 

Yes, that's why an external mic is best for video.


----------



## Ruined (Oct 28, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Ruined said:
> 
> 
> > VIDEOS: BEST >> 70D >> T5i = T4i >> SL1 >> 60D >> WORST
> ...



The increased focusing area is nice, but I would consider the lack of an articulating screen crippling for casual video taking.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 28, 2013)

Ruined said:


> The increased focusing area is nice, but I would consider the lack of an articulating screen crippling for casual video taking.



Makes sense. My camcorder has one, but it also has an EVF which is handy in bright sunlight.


----------



## eml58 (Oct 29, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> Could anyone point me in the right direction of an informational website showing about ISO and aperture and all the other things I will have to learn to adjust . And thank you all once again !!!



There's actually a gazillion sites out there, try these though to get you started, and Good Luck, but mostly, Enjoy your Photography.

http://digital-photography-school.com

http://tv.adobe.com

http://improvephotography.com/1341/top-21-up-and-coming-photography-sites-to-watch-and-learn/

http://www.lynda.com/Photography-training-tutorials/70-0.html


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 29, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > Lesuediane said:
> ...


 
I apologize if my comment assumed that you were asking for too large of a camera. I thought I had read that you wanted something small. 

Pretty much any DSLR will be damaged in a fall if it lands the wrong way.

Printing does not require a special high mp camera, even billboards have been taken with 6mp images. Photobooks and the like do not require high resolution at all.

If you want to print 30 X 40, then 12 mp is a good minimum size, but all cameras are 12 mp or more these days.

If you can go to a best Buy, look at them, and see how they feel in your hand. Be aware that the low end models come with a lightweight plastic lens, so if you decide to go for a higher end lens, they will be heavier. Just be aware that most of the Best Buy salesmen are not photographers, and want to sell the item with the highest profit.

Its generally considered good advice to buy a less expensive body and a upgraded lens. The "STM" lenses mentioned in the threads are a upgrade to the basic unit.

The reason I suggest a Refurbished Camera is that they have the same warranty as new, they have extra QA, and you can get more for your money. A good lens will hold its value for many years, but bodies lose value quickly. 

The T5i with the articulated viewfinder, and STM lens might be the most you can get within your budget.

By the way, do you realize that most of the DSLR's do not autofocus while tasking video, its manual focus and its difficult to do on a moving subject (The T4i, T5i, and SL1 do Autofocus, but not good enough to follow a sport). The only DSLR Canon makes with good camcorder type autofocus during video is the 70D, but its pretty pricey.


----------



## jebrady03 (Oct 29, 2013)

The time frame on this deal is about up (ends today - Oct 28th) but if you could stretch the budget, this would give you the very best of everything....

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1010978-REG/canon_eos_70d_dslr_camera.html

That's the 70D + 18-135 IS STM + Pixma Pro 10 ink jet printer, paper, shoulder bag, and a class 10 16GB memory card for $1249 after rebate.

The 70D autofocuses in video better than any other DSLR on the market, hands down, no questions asked. This is a camera that you will no need to upgrade for MANY MANY years.

That aside, the 20% discount on the T4i + 18-135 is likely the best deal out there for you at $588 plus tax (promo code ZOMBIE2143). It has the articulating LCD which I feel like is a great option to have on a DSLR, especially when shooting video.

The T4i autofocuses in video decently well, but it's a first generation of autofocus technology in video so in time, you will probably want to upgrade it. You didn't say how old your son is but the autofocus on this camera in video mode will NOT keep up with him running around if you're nearby (on a soccer field it might but not well).

Avoid the 60D. And I'm saying that as a 60D owner. It doesn't autofocus when shooting video which means YOU have to constantly focus the lens and it's a MAJOR pain in the butt. It's a fantastic camera, but does not fit your needs and experience level (you need some pretty impressive skills to be able to take good video with it - I unfortunately lack those skills so I never use it for video). Avoid the T3 as well for the same reason, no autofocus in video mode.


----------



## Zv (Oct 29, 2013)

I have only read the OP and none of the other replies so apologies if someone already mentioned it but I reckon a T4 would be perfect. Great all round performance for a consumer DSLR. 

Otherwise you could stretch for a 70D for it's video features. It's a bit out of the budget but if you want something that you can use for a few years and learn with it's prob the way to go. 

It might also be worth waiting a little to see what the EOS M2 holds? Might be just the ticket. I like the current M but couldn't seriously recommend it if you want to shoot video.


----------



## jasonsim (Oct 29, 2013)

If it were me and I could wait a while longer, scrape up together a few more bucks, I'd get the Canon 70D. It seems to be a great all around camera. You will thank yourself a hundred times over to have the Autofocus dual-pixel movie mode. Otherwise, manual focus with the other bodies is very tedious! To the point where I just don't enjoy making movies...even with the 1Dx! 

That's just my two cents.

Best of luck with any decision you make!

--Jason


----------



## bholliman (Oct 29, 2013)

My sister recently purchased an SL1 with 18-135 STM lens for use with her young kids (1-8). She is extremely happy with it. This weekend I borrowed it for a few hours and was really impressed with how well it focuses for video. I shot four of our kids playing actively together and the AF and STM performed admirably. A very capable little camera!



Zv said:


> It might also be worth waiting a little to see what the EOS M2 holds? Might be just the ticket. I like the current M but couldn't seriously recommend it if you want to shoot video.



+1 As an EOS-M owner, I would not recommend the current M for taking pictures or video of kids. It's a great portable camera for still or slow moving objects however.


----------



## Aglet (Oct 29, 2013)

If you're not stuck on CANON, there are a lot of other excellent imaging machines out there, worth considering.

Nikon D5300 w 18-140mm if you can afford it, fast, good video, no touch screen tho but does have articulating display.
Nikon D5200 - on price reduction or kitted with extra lenses.
Nikon D5100 if you can still find them- low cost, great images

Pentax K-30 or K-50 with 18-135mm WR lens - tough and weather/spill resistant


Fast focusing mirrorless cameras:

Fuji X-A1 or X-M1 w 16-50mm lens fits in your budget, great image quality, good features, interchangeable lens

Fuji X-E1 with 18-55mm lens, taking it up a notch

Olympus Pen E-P5 with 14-42 lens or one of the many other good micro 4/3rds camera systems

All the above cameras compete well, if not exceed in some cases, any APS-C Canon body out there.


----------



## Zv (Oct 29, 2013)

Aglet said:


> If you're not stuck on CANON, there are a lot of other excellent imaging machines out there, worth considering.
> 
> Nikon D5300 w 18-140mm if you can afford it, fast, good video, no touch screen tho but does have articulating display.
> Nikon D5200 - on price reduction or kitted with extra lenses.
> ...



"Any other APS-C Canon body ... " yes but they don't have the lenses to go with it.


----------



## mjbehnke (Oct 29, 2013)

Aglet said:


> If you're not stuck on CANON, there are a lot of other excellent imaging machines out there, worth considering.
> 
> Nikon D5300 w 18-140mm if you can afford it, fast, good video, no touch screen tho but does have articulating display.
> Nikon D5200 - on price reduction or kitted with extra lenses.
> ...



You must not have seen the part about wanting to shoot video along with photos.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 29, 2013)

mjbehnke said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > If you're not stuck on CANON, there are a lot of other excellent imaging machines out there, worth considering.
> ...



Or the part about pictures/videos of a child, and the implied need for fast AF with the capability to track a moving subject, which rules out the mirrorless models listed (perhaps the Oly OM-D E-M1 could do it, but that's out of budget).

Aglet is right about those other models exceeding Canon's offerings in certain cases...such as when you need to push your exposure by 5 stops in post.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 29, 2013)

@OP - I would recommend a Sony RX100II based on your criteria as I understand them: 

* Budget ca. 700
* not much desire to carry/change lenses 
* very good image quality; no problem to pribnt photos, including posters; just not wall-sized advertising posters
* decent AF to capture junior/sports, but no coverage of Olympic Games as a Photo-journalist 
* video quality more than good enough for family videos; not for hollywood productions
* full manual control over image capture (in addition to decent auto modes)
* WiFi built in for easy sharing on the net, FB, social media [no Canon DSLR other than the EOS 6D has this yet]

It all comes together in one really good, small and light package in the Sony RX100 II.
Any DSLR you will buy - including the SL-1 - will most likely not be along all the time you would want it or even collect dust at home soon. I am seeing it with a lot of friends. 

Yes, tele "reach" will be somewhat limited on the RX-100, but to get format-filling pics of your kid/s running with the ball at the other end of a sports field, you would have to carry a VERY large and heavy lens with any DSLR as well. Un less you are really prepared to do so, I'd advise to stay clear. 

Unfortunately Canon has nothing even remotely comparable to the Sony RX100 II at the moment.


----------



## bholliman (Oct 29, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> Unfortunately Canon has nothing even remotely comparable to the Sony RX100 II at the moment.



By all reports the RX100 II is a great compact camera. However, there are some significant drawbacks when compared with Canon Rebels and other current APS-C cameras:

1) Sensor size: The APS-C sensor in the Canon Rebels and 60/70D is roughly 3 times larger than the Sony sensor (APS-C 22.2x14.8mm = 328 square mm vs. Sony RX100 II 13.2x8.8 = 116 square mm). Larger sensors allow for better depth of field control, reduced noise and generally better image quality. 

2) Fixed lens vs interchangeable lens: The Sony has a fixed (non-interchangeable) 28-100mm FF equivalent lens. The variable aperture goes from f/1.8-4.9 which equates to f/4.9 to f/13.2 on a full format camera. Not only is the focal length very limiting (28mm isn't that wide and 100mm isn't much zoom), but the maximum aperture is limiting like a typical P&S camera. There will be almost no ability to isolate a subject with a shallow depth of field.

3) The Sony also as an electronic viewfinder vs. the optical viewfinder on the Canon's. With an OVF you are using your eyes to evaluate the scene in front of you, EVF's see a very limited range of exposures compared with the human eye and are not as good in bright light.

Those disadvantages are significant enough for me not to be interested in these small sensor cameras, but I'm sure they appeal to many others who are OK with those limitations.

Personally, I like to have the ability to change lenses and have focal length and maximum aperture flexibility.


----------



## KyleSTL (Oct 29, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> Unfortunately Canon has nothing even remotely comparable to the Sony RX100 II at the moment.


The G1X is not 'remotely comparable'? While it is not in the same size/form factor it has several advantages over the RX100 II (which is an outstanding camera in its segment):

- Larger sensor (almost APS-C size)
- Slightly longer zoom (112mm vs. 100mm)
- Fully articulated screen
- Slower lens, but equivalent DOF control compared to RX100 II (slightly worse on wide end, and better on long end) because of larger sensor - see below












Heck even the G16 or S120 could be thrown into the mix with a couple of advantages over the RX100 II (at the compromise of a much smaller sensor):
- S120 gains 24mm wide end and goes longer to 120mm (although slower lens at the long end by ~1/3 stop)
- G16 has very fast lens (f/1.8-2.8) and goes to 140mm on the long end (and has very comparable DOF control - see charts above)
- G16 can do 12.2 fps for 6 shots and 9.3 fps for 522 shots and S120 can do 12.1 fps for 6 shots and 9.4 fps for 635 shots (RX100 II does 10 fps for 14 shots then slows to 2 fps) 
- Better video compression with Digic 6 processor and more frame rate options (1080p60, 1080p30, 720p30, 480p30), whereas the Sony only does 1080p60 and 480p30

Obvious disadvantages for S120 and G16 are bad high ISO performance, lack of tilting screen, and S120 has significant disadvantage in DOF control compared to RX100 II.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 29, 2013)

KyleSTL said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately Canon has nothing even remotely comparable to the Sony RX100 II at the moment.
> ...



Yes, you are right. "Remotely comparable". However, I'd take an RX100II any time over a G1X. Not only because of the smaller size, but also because I believe [not checked] that RX-100 II beats the G1X in image quality - despite the sensor size difference. At least at the most frequently used lower ISO settings.

As far as the S-120 or G16 are concerned: they are not even remotely comparable to the RX100-II.


----------



## KyleSTL (Oct 29, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> KyleSTL said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...


Granted, the RX100 II has 20 MP (vs. 14MP for G1X and 12MP for S120/G16) so it will have better resolution at base ISO (~20% higher linear resolution all things being equal), but will that make much or any difference at higher ISOs, or printed < 30x40, or shared online? Although, now that I'm thinking of it, the RX100 II will have a FL advantage over the G1X when cropped to 12MP (120mm vs. 112mm).

I agree that RX100 II is a significantly better camera than S120 or G16, but there are a few attributes that favor the latter that are worth consideration (priority will obviously be determined by the buyer/user). The FL advantage disappears for the S120 when the Sony is cropped to 12MP (129mm), but the G16 still has a very slight advantage (140mm).

Overall, the RX100 II is a superior camera to the other three I've listed, but does not have an advantage in all specifications, so I made comparison to outline the Canon options that are available.

To the OP, it would be a shame for you to spend a lot of money on a camera (with instantaneous depreciation) and not be happy with the results (especially in regards to video AF performance). I would suggest looking up reviews and/or demonstrations that highlight AF performance in video (DP Review, The Camera Store, etc) for the various cameras you are considering (ideally all using the same lens). If you go the DSLR route I think all of us can agree that STM lenses are a must (since you're planning on using the video function), with the 70D being ideal, followed by the 100D (SL1), then the 650D (T4i) and 700D (T5i). And remember, no camera you're thinking about is as expensive as buying two if you're unhappy with the results produced by the first purchase. I'm not trying to up-sell you or anything, I just want to give you all the information I have so you end up with a camera that you're happy with.


----------



## NorthDallas40 (Oct 29, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> I've been reviewing and reading for months now and still can't come to a solid decision . I'm a momma looking to buy a nice camera to take pictures of mostly my son with . I would like to be able to record video and take pics at the same time. I don't want to need a newer camera with more features later. Would like to spend around 700ish .. Would like touch screen if that would be easier to use ... I've been told to just get a t3 but I feel I will outgrow it quickly .. I've been leaning towards a 60d... I'm in need of some major direction.. Hopefully I can find it here . Thanks to everyone who helps ;-)



Given your intended uses and priorities: 

stills
video
kids
touch screen
700ish

I recommend a T4i or SL1 and 18-135mm STM lens, depending on which size you prefer. This combo will handle stills and video very nicely and is relatively small and light. The 60D is an excellent still camera, but autofocus for video's isn't good. I recommend the T4i over the T5i as they are essentially the same, but the T4i is significantly cheaper.

Visit Best Buy or another retailer and try out the options to see which you are the most comfortable with.




AvTvM said:


> KyleSTL said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



I'm not sure any of these compacts are what the OP is looking for. She mentioned she was interested in a DSLR (T3 or 60D). I think all of these options are inferior to any of Canon's Rebel line.


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 29, 2013)

NorthDallas40 said:


> Lesuediane said:
> 
> 
> > I've been reviewing and reading for months now and still can't come to a solid decision . I'm a momma looking to buy a nice camera to take pictures of mostly my son with . I would like to be able to record video and take pics at the same time. I don't want to need a newer camera with more features later. Would like to spend around 700ish .. Would like touch screen if that would be easier to use ... I've been told to just get a t3 but I feel I will outgrow it quickly .. I've been leaning towards a 60d... I'm in need of some major direction.. Hopefully I can find it here . Thanks to everyone who helps ;-)
> ...




I would be interested in something smaller if the image quality would be the same. Looking at the eos m ... Seems like a good choice , but what do I know? How long before the newer eos m comes out and what's the price range on it ? The eos m available now isn't more than $400. Would this be a good pocketable camera for me ? What's the shutter lag like ? Continuous or no ?


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 29, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> I've been reviewing and reading for months now and still can't come to a solid decision . I'm a momma looking to buy a nice camera to take pictures of mostly my son with . I would like to be able to record video and take pics at the same time. I don't want to need a newer camera with more features later. Would like to spend around 700ish .. Would like touch screen if that would be easier to use ... I've been told to just get a t3 but I feel I will outgrow it quickly .. I've been leaning towards a 60d... I'm in need of some major direction.. Hopefully I can find it here . Thanks to everyone who helps ;-)




I think I am now leaning towards a mirror less interchangeable lens camera . I feel i would benefit from the size . What would everyone suggest. Would a camera like this give me images nice enough for a Christmas card etc ?


----------



## Ruined (Oct 29, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> I think I am now leaning towards a mirror less interchangeable lens camera . I feel i would benefit from the size . What would everyone suggest. Would a camera like this give me images nice enough for a Christmas card etc ?



I'd suggest not to get a mirrorless camera, as it does not seem a wise investment at this point in time. In the pricerange you are looking for, you will have significantly lower quality and/or less features with a mirrorless. In addition, you will have less lens selection and the potential of the technology becoming defunct in the future due to continued poor sales of this type of camera compared to DSLR, which could obliterate your mirrorless lens investment.

If you are primarily concerned about getting nice images for a Christmas card, for instance, why not just get a point & shoot/fixed lens instead of interchangable lens? That will be small, deliver good enough images for a card, and be much cheaper. And if you want more potential but smaller, I'd recommend a Rebel SL1.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 29, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> I think I am now leaning towards a mirror less interchangeable lens camera . I feel i would benefit from the size . What would everyone suggest. Would a camera like this give me images nice enough for a Christmas card etc ?


 
Everyone has a favorite mirrorless, but they are all a compromise due to the autofocus. Those with a small sensor will autofocus easier, but struggle in low light, those with a larger sensor have slower autofocus but have better low light sensitivity.
*Any of them will take high quality images, no worries there, its just a matter of degree, but for Christmas Cards, even a $150 point and shoot will be fine. *
You need to decide if you can use the camera without a viewfinder. Outdoors, in bright sun, can you compose and tell if the subject is in focus using the rear LCD? Some have a electronic viewfinder which come in varying qualities, and most will display a smeared image if the subject is moving.
I would recommend going for a large sensor, at least APS-C. 
Mirrorless is just not yet up to the capability of DSLR's. Many have the Canon "M", it is low cost, but Autofocus is much slower than a DSLR. Its easy to adapt Canon DSLR lenses, and there are a lot of them available on the used market. Sony has a bit faster autofocus, but has a dismal service record, 2-3 months is not uncommon for repairs. The camera controls are also confusing. They seem to finally be fixing this with their latest FF model.

IMHO, in the next two years, the market should fall out, and the main players will have something I'd consider as a DSLR replacement. Canon's hybrid dual pixel AF has great promise for making a Mirrorless competitive with a DSLR.

When you consider the size of the lens, the size advantage to mirrorless cameras is diminished, since a good lens will still be the same size for a given sensor size. 

If you go to a small sensor, it won't meet your original desire to have something good for the future, small sensors are disappearing. 

Here is a good summary of what's good and bad with mirrorless. Be sure to read the section on autofocus, since that can be a big disadvantage if you need fast focusing. The other being the viewfinder.
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0344780582/mirrorless-camera-buying-guide


----------



## bholliman (Oct 29, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> I think I am now leaning towards a mirror less interchangeable lens camera . I feel i would benefit from the size . What would everyone suggest. Would a camera like this give me images nice enough for a Christmas card etc ?



The only mirrorless interchangable lens camera I'm familiar with is the Canon EOS-M, and I do not recommend it for the uses you outlined. I have one it its autofocus does not keep up with active kids. Picture quality is great as long as the subject is not moving or is moving slowly. Same story for video, quality is excellent, but auto focus struggles to keep up.

For shooting active kids, I strongly recommend a DSLR.


----------



## jebrady03 (Oct 29, 2013)

I personally think the M would be a very good choice.

1) CHEAP - thus, if Canon decides tomorrow to cease production, the OP hasn't really lost much. In fact, she hasn't lost anything as she'll still have a VERY capable camera for years to come.
2) It does what she wants it to - takes pictures of equal quality to a DSLR
3) Lens selection - we're talking about someone who wants nice pictures and prefers a one lens solution - NOT someone who is looking to buy an entire stable of lenses to perfectly fit every situation.... ever. The M has 3 very good lenses. Two of which (EF-M 18-55 IS STM and EF-M 22) can be had along with a flash AND the camera for $400 if her timing is right! One is an every day lens for taking places and shooting video (18-55) and the other is her indoor and/or "pocketable" (cargo pants pocket, jacket pocket, diaper bag size solution) lens.
4) Video - the EOS M is a mirrorless version of the T4i. For everyone who said the T4i would be a good solution because of video, you CAN'T say the M isn't equally as good for VIDEO.
5) EOS M2 - when the follow up comes out (presumably with DPAF - which to the OP means VERY good autofocus performance in live view [the only option for the M] and video), it will be substantially more expensive. However, all is not lost. If the OP buys the current M plus the 2 lens package plus flash, the current M basically only costs about $75 in that package and the other lenses plus flash can just be used on the M2 - no value lost at all. That's a disposable price for the camera, IMO. But the camera can still be used (she doesn't HAVE to dispose of it) for times she takes her kid to the beach and doesn't want to risk getting sand in the M2, or other higher risk situations. It basically turns into a $75 lifetime insurance policy.

Keep an eye out for that 2 lens plus flash kit for ~$400 if you decide the M is for you. Snag it (as long as the seller has a good return policy), try it out, and if you hate it, return it and get your money back.


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 29, 2013)

jebrady03 said:


> I personally think the M would be a very good choice.
> 
> 1) CHEAP - thus, if Canon decides tomorrow to cease production, the OP hasn't really lost much. In fact, she hasn't lost anything as she'll still have a VERY capable camera for years to come.
> 2) It does what she wants it to - takes pictures of equal quality to a DSLR
> ...




Will I be able to change the iOS and aperture and things like that in the eos m ? I am interested in learning how to use these settings As well as shooting in manual mode ?


----------



## jebrady03 (Oct 29, 2013)

Here's a link to that deal: http://1sale.com/electronics/cameras-video/eos-m18-55-22mm/

Shipping with them is slow, but you can't beat the price. I haven't checked out their return policy so do your homework!

Yes, you can change the ISO, aperture, shutter speed, etc., as well as shoot in full auto. The EOS M is literally a T4i without a viewfinder and in a smaller package because it doesn't have a mirror box like a DSLR does.

I find the EOS M VERY easy to use.


----------



## jebrady03 (Oct 29, 2013)

Here is their return policy


> Returns
> What is your return policy?
> If your product is defective within 21 days of receipt, please contact Customer Service for a return authorization (RMA). RMAs are required for all returns. When contacting Customer Service, please be sure to include the following:
> 
> ...



So, because they're a liquidation site, you won't have the option to return it unless it's defective. So, be aware of that.


----------



## KyleSTL (Oct 29, 2013)

I think the EOS would be a good budget choice, as long as you understand the limitations outlined by Mt Spokane. I think the AF speed is improved based on what I've seen with the newer firmware 2.0.2 (although it is well short of DSLR speed for still, probably comparable to T4i/T5i for video). EOS M has all the same PTvAvM modes as a DSLR, so yes, you will be able to set shutter speed, ISO and aperture. I would suggest going to Best Buy or a camera store and play around with them, that might help you decide whether or not the design and 'feel' (focus speed especially) of the EOS M are acceptable.


----------



## jebrady03 (Oct 29, 2013)

KyleSTL said:


> I think the EOS would be a good budget choice, as long as you understand the limitations outlined by Mt Spokane. I think the AF speed is improved based on what I've seen with the newer firmware 2.0.2 (although it is well short of DSLR speed for still, probably comparable to T4i/T5i for video). EOS M has all the same PTvAvM modes as a DSLR, so yes, you will be able to set shutter speed, ISO and aperture. I would suggest going to Best Buy or a camera store and play around with them, that might help you decide whether or not the design and 'feel' (focus speed especially) of the EOS M are acceptable.



I agree, the AF speed is the Achilles heel of the EOS M but it's not as bad for casual shooting as everyone makes it seem. Additionally, the OP is coming from a cell phone for pictures so the EOS M should be an improvement. 

To the OP, make sure you read the manual (goes for any camera you buy) multiple times. The EOS M is a VERY capable camera and is honestly a better camera than most people NEED (not want, need). Knowing that manual inside and out (or at least where you can find the info you need quickly) will be a HUGE advantage over just turning it on and trying to use it.


----------



## Ruined (Oct 29, 2013)

Can people recommending the EOS-M on this thread say in good faith Canon has definite plans to continue supporting this camera in the future given the below:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51795516

We know:
1) The EOS-M is being sold at blowout prices
2) The EOS-M 11-22 lens is not being sold or serviced in the US due to "market conditions" (aka poor sales)
3) Mirrorless in general have been a massive sales disappointment across the board recently

Is it really good to be recommending a product that has signs of being orphaned in the near future? At least if a DSLR is discontinued you can use the lenses on a different one if it breaks, if the EOS-M is orphaned it is possible the whole lens system will go with it.

For example, it is possible Canon will abandon the EF-M mount entirely and instead pursue a full frame mirrorless system that uses EF mount given the minute differences in size between mirrorless & dslr full frame lenses.


----------



## jebrady03 (Oct 29, 2013)

How is recommending the EOS M any different than recommending a (more expensive) fixed lens, large sensor compact (RX100II)?


----------



## Ruined (Oct 29, 2013)

jebrady03 said:


> How is recommending the EOS M any different than recommending a (more expensive) fixed lens, large sensor compact (RX100II)?



#1 I did not recommend a more expensive fixed lens, large sensor compact. But when you buy that, you know what you are buying - a fixed lens system.
#2 One main purpose of buying an interchangeable lens camera system is so you can interchange various different lenses. If the lens system is discontinued and no more lenses are released, given the paltry selection of current EF-M lenses you essentially lose one of the primary features of the device. Currently, the most recently planned (and desperately needed to fill ultra wide focal length gap) lens release for the EOS-M was cancelled in the US due to poor sales and the camera is on blowout sale, this does not bode well for the immature EF-M lens system which currently 100% depends on the EOS-M for survival.

Thus, given the OP's needs, again I'd say either cheap point and shoot, or Rebel SL1 if more potential is desired. EOS-M is too much of an uncertainty of whether it will continue to be supported for me to recommend in good faith.


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 29, 2013)

jebrady03 said:


> I personally think the M would be a very good choice.
> 
> 1) CHEAP - thus, if Canon decides tomorrow to cease production, the OP hasn't really lost much. In fact, she hasn't lost anything as she'll still have a VERY capable camera for years to come.
> 2) It does what she wants it to - takes pictures of equal quality to a DSLR
> ...




When is the eos m2 expected to release ? What will improve ? It will be double the price of the eos m ? Someone else mentioned canon discontinued the series all together ? That the lens are being shipped overseas for repairs ... What does this mean for me if I were to buy one ? 

Buying the m would let me see just how much I will be using a camera .. I could upgrade to a better dslr later and still have a pocket size to carry around ... 

Just thinking out loud .....


----------



## takesome1 (Oct 29, 2013)

@Lesuediane

While it is a fine little camera, I would stay way from the EOS M. It is going to be replaced shortly and was Canon's first attempt. It is at bargain prices now and you could pick it up cheap if that appeals to you. It has to many limitations and is only appealing because Canon dropped the price. Not long ago when it was released and priced much higher the same people praising it now were condemning it for its weakness.

I would still suggest the t4i or the t5i for your needs. I bought the wife a t4i and it is simple to use and takes great pictures even with the kit lens. It will also give you the option to expand later if you want to. You can grow with these bodies.

I wouldn't suggest any of the point and shoots that people are throwing out. The reason is that you came here to ask about DSLR's not point and shoots. I speculate that you want more out of a camera than a P&S will provide.


----------



## comsense (Oct 29, 2013)

Ruined said:


> Can people recommending the EOS-M on this thread say in good faith Canon has definite plans to continue supporting this camera in the future


The more relevant question is whether EOS M is suitable for photographing children? 
The clear answer is that this is the worst camera in Canon EOS lineup for this purpose.
A lot of people have already alluded to this mildly.
Fanboys can say whatever, iphone 5/5S has better success catching them in action than EOSM.
Another word of caution: If you are a very experienced photographer, you can possibly use EOSM well under certain situations (landscapes, adult studio portraits etc.) overcoming its limitations. If you are just starting, this might frustrate you from investing further into photography.
The markets are not always stupid and the response to this camera was absolutely justified. If I had not paid just $300 for camera+lens+flash, I would have surely returned it.
Whatever you decide to buy momma is up to your budget, expectations and appetite for learning, but stay away from EOS M for now at least. With some experience photographing kids, I can rate Canon lineup as follows:
1DX > 5DIII > 6D > 7D/70D > T* 
Personally, if you want to take it up as a hobby/passion, I would start with at least 60D/70D. Ergonomics, controls and possible better quality control than T* series is definitely worth few extra 100s.
As far as video is concerned - unless you invest in expensive accessories which together can be much more expensive than a cost of reasonable camcorder; its better to just buy a camcorder.


----------



## takesome1 (Oct 29, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> jebrady03 said:
> 
> 
> > I personally think the M would be a very good choice.
> ...




The EOS M had around a $700 price when released.
I would speculate a EOS M II to release at $800 or more, but no one knows for sure.
The lenses made and sold with the M will only work with a M. You can buy an adapter to use EOS line.


----------



## Ruined (Oct 29, 2013)

takesome1 said:


> The EOS M had around a $700 price when released.
> I would speculate a EOS M II to release at $800 or more, but no one knows for sure.
> The lenses made and sold with the M will only work with a M. You can buy an adapter to use EOS line.



To play devil's advocate...

If the M2 were still planned to be released in the USA *and* be compatible with the EOS-M mount, why would Canon decide to cancel the 11-22mm EOS-M lens release in the USA due to poor sales? I would think they would continue to build out the EF-M lens lineup if the M2 were planned to be released soon and compatible with it, no?

Given the recent release of the A7 and Nikon's rumored response, IMO it is possible Canon may scrap EF-M altogether and move to full frame EF mirrorless. Otherwise, I don't see why they'd blow out EOS-M cameras and stop releasing EF-M lenses as they have in the US. We don't know for sure, but I don't think you can make a solid argument that the EF-M lens system is thriving in the US - instead it appears to be stagnating.


----------



## takesome1 (Oct 29, 2013)

Ruined said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > The EOS M had around a $700 price when released.
> ...



I think the key word on all of these comments is "speculate".


----------



## Ruined (Oct 29, 2013)

takesome1 said:


> I think the key word on all of these comments is "speculate".



Correct, but given the EOS-M only has two native lenses available in the US and its sales were so dire that Canon cancelled the third lens release, I would think speculation would be in order for a potential buyer of the system.


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 29, 2013)

Ruined said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > I think the key word on all of these comments is "speculate".
> ...



The two lenses that are available in the us ... Would I need any additional lenses for everyday use ? Could you explain to me what I would want to use each lens for ? I'm VERY new to all of this . I want a camera that I'm going to use , maybe a bigger sl1 would be bulky for everyday life .. Playing in the yard , trips to the park ... But I would also like to be able to take nice birthday photos , Christmas etc . How long would a little camera like this last ? Is the shutter count significant ? Is there another brand camera that would better suite my needs ? A friend has a Sony nex5 ? How does it match up ? Better or ? .... Thanks everyone for all your comments and help ... Keep it coming ;-)


----------



## Zv (Oct 30, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> Ruined said:
> 
> 
> > takesome1 said:
> ...



The EOS M has three lenses available in it's native format - the M mount. 

They are the 18-55mm lens; a general purpose lens that ranges from a relatively wide perspective (18mm) to a reasonably good portrait length (55mm). This lens is what you would likely use most often. It has Image Stabilization to help keep the lens steady for low light situations. 

Then there is the 22mm f/2 pancake lens. It's very small and compact and lets in a lot of light compared to the 18-55mm lens. The downside is that you only have one focal length / perspective. 22mm is still pretty wide but good for group shots of people, buildings and landscapes. It's also good for some walking around casual shooting. F/2 means you could get sharp photos using fast shutter speeds. This lens has no IS though. 

The newest lens, not available in the US, is the 11-22mm lens. This is a very wide angle lens and is used for getting sweeping landscapes and buildings. It's also great for tight spaces. These lenses create a kind of stretched distortion that can look really cool if used right. (I love wide angle lenses as do much of this community!). This lens has IS which makes it even more desirable. 

The system still lacks a telephoto zoom lens for headahots and far away objects. We are still waiting for Canon to do something there!

Now, if you buy the EF adaptor, you can then use any current EF, or EFS lens available in Canon's lineup with the EOS M. So it's not all bad news. However, those lenses tend to be a lot bigger so you lose the size advantage. 

I can't comment on Sony as I've never used them. I'm sure someone can break it down for you. Sony likely has a lot more lenses for it's mirrorles than Canon does.


----------



## jebrady03 (Oct 30, 2013)

The rumors surrounding the M2 are many and conflicting. Some people think that the M line has been discontinued because Canon hasn't released the EF-M 11-22 in the US. Others think that they're saving that lens for the market that shunned the M the most in order to create more hype when the M2 comes out. Additionally, Canon accidentally showed their hand and put "M2" into the help files for their photo processing software. 13 times. To me, THAT is a stronger indicator of future intent than not YET releasing a lens that honestly, isn't a lens EVERYONE needs/wants. It's an ultra wide angle lens, not many people (compared to those who own regular kit lenses) own an ultra wide angle lens.

As for a release date, probably not until next year and yes, probably $800-1000.

The current M is, during most uses, equal to the entry level NEX cameras. The NEX cameras may (according to most people) autofocus a little bit faster than the M, but the M lenses are MUCH better and substantially cheaper than the lenses for the NEX system.

For every day use for subjects that aren't far away, these two lenses will satisfy your needs.

FYI, the 18-55mm lens is about $150. The 22mm is about $100. The EX90 flash is about $100. So, should you buy all of those items separately, they're about $350. That means you have $50 invested in the camera (less than I thought earlier). So, you could take pictures with it now and keep it for the future as a backup should you decide to buy the M2. Or, on the off chance Canon does abandon the EOS M line (I don't think they will, they need to have a camera in the mirrorless market even though mirrorless cameras don't sell well in the US right now for some reason), you've only invested $400 into the EOS M system and it should last you for probably a decade with average use, if not substantially longer. Another way to look at it is that technology will pass it by several times before it finally stops working.


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 30, 2013)

There is no such thing as the perfect camera for all types of photography and video. The closest thing to it is a DSLR camera. If you do not want to carry several kilograms of equipment, but want good quality photos and videos, including video of children running, the most appropriate camera (under $ 1400) is Canon SL1. If you want more light and compact and accepts forgo agility and practicality, then it is more advantageous to mirrorles Sony NEX because EOS M has underperformed the autofocus and lens are sparse. If you want even more compact to fit in your pocket, then Canon G15 is an interesting choice. While you wait new cameras come to market, their children grow up and you lose these records memorable.


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 30, 2013)

jebrady03 said:


> The rumors surrounding the M2 are many and conflicting. Some people think that the M line has been discontinued because Canon hasn't released the EF-M 11-22 in the US. Others think that they're saving that lens for the market that shunned the M the most in order to create more hype when the M2 comes out. Additionally, Canon accidentally showed their hand and put "M2" into the help files for their photo processing software. 13 times. To me, THAT is a stronger indicator of future intent than not YET releasing a lens that honestly, isn't a lens EVERYONE needs/wants. It's an ultra wide angle lens, not many people (compared to those who own regular kit lenses) own an ultra wide angle lens.
> 
> As for a release date, probably not until next year and yes, probably $800-1000.
> 
> ...



I think I will order the whole kit for $400 .. Even if I find I'm wanting a bigger dslr later .. I will always have the eos m for when a smaller camera would be better suited . I have looked at sample images and they look way nice !! I could pick up a small video devise for those times when I want to record. . I like the compact size and price . I'm not really wanting to shoot him running anyway ... I think the continuous shooting will catch him in action , right ?


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 30, 2013)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> There is no such thing as the perfect camera for all types of photography and video. The closest thing to it is a DSLR camera. If you do not want to carry several kilograms of equipment, but want good quality photos and videos, including video of children running, the most appropriate camera (under $ 1400) is Canon SL1. If you want more light and compact and accepts forgo agility and practicality, then it is more advantageous to mirrorles Sony NEX because EOS M has underperformed the autofocus and lens are sparse. If you want even more compact to fit in your pocket, then Canon G15 is an interesting choice. While you wait new cameras come to market, their children grow up and you lose these records memorable.




So between the Sony nex5 and the eos m ... You would hands down choose the Sony nex5 ?  I was really liking the eos m .... Looks cleaner than the Sony ( call me crazy ) I like the body better .


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 30, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> jebrady03 said:
> 
> 
> > The rumors surrounding the M2 are many and conflicting. Some people think that the M line has been discontinued because Canon hasn't released the EF-M 11-22 in the US. Others think that they're saving that lens for the market that shunned the M the most in order to create more hype when the M2 comes out. Additionally, Canon accidentally showed their hand and put "M2" into the help files for their photo processing software. 13 times. To me, THAT is a stronger indicator of future intent than not YET releasing a lens that honestly, isn't a lens EVERYONE needs/wants. It's an ultra wide angle lens, not many people (compared to those who own regular kit lenses) own an ultra wide angle lens.
> ...


You can make videos of children running with the current EOS M, but when they run toward you probably slow autofocus will not be able to accompany them.


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 30, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > There is no such thing as the perfect camera for all types of photography and video. The closest thing to it is a DSLR camera. If you do not want to carry several kilograms of equipment, but want good quality photos and videos, including video of children running, the most appropriate camera (under $ 1400) is Canon SL1. If you want more light and compact and accepts forgo agility and practicality, then it is more advantageous to mirrorles Sony NEX because EOS M has underperformed the autofocus and lens are sparse. If you want even more compact to fit in your pocket, then Canon G15 is an interesting choice. While you wait new cameras come to market, their children grow up and you lose these records memorable.
> ...


The only advantage of the current EOS M is the price. I do not like very small cameras, but I must admit that Sony NEX has better performance autofocus in video, compared to other mirrorless cameras.


----------



## takesome1 (Oct 30, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> So between the Sony nex5 and the eos m ... You would hands down choose the Sony nex5 ?  I was really liking the eos m .... Looks cleaner than the Sony ( call me crazy ) I like the body better .



One advantage the M will give you is that you can buy the adapter and use all off the current EOS lenses, the same that they use on the pro grade cameras.

The other advantage the price is great, B&H has the M camera, zoom lens and flash combo for $359.00. The Nex 5 with lens and add a flash you are looking at over $600. If you are spending that much go with one of the DSLR's, much better performance and better to grow with.


----------



## bholliman (Oct 30, 2013)

comsense said:


> The more relevant question is whether EOS M is suitable for photographing children?
> The clear answer is that this is the worst camera in Canon EOS lineup for this purpose.
> A lot of people have already alluded to this mildly.
> Fanboys can say whatever, iphone 5/5S has better success catching them in action than EOSM.
> Another word of caution: If you are a very experienced photographer, you can possibly use EOSM well under certain situations (landscapes, adult studio portraits etc.) overcoming its limitations. If you are just starting, this might frustrate you from investing further into photography.



+1 The EOS-M is not a good camera for shooting young children. We have an 18 - month -old boy and lots of cousins and neighbor kids around. I've tried shooting the kids at play many times and just get frustrated. The AF is slow and the recovery time between shots is several seconds. I miss more smiles, great expressions and interaction then I capture. I now always use my 6D with the kids. It's immeasurably better for this task. A T4i, T5i or SL1 would perform almost as well as the 6D.

The OP really should try shooting with these cameras at a camera.store.to see how the work side by side.


----------



## jebrady03 (Oct 30, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> I think I will order the whole kit for $400 .. Even if I find I'm wanting a bigger dslr later .. I will always have the eos m for when a smaller camera would be better suited . I have looked at sample images and they look way nice !! I could pick up a small video devise for those times when I want to record. . I like the compact size and price . I'm not really wanting to shoot him running anyway ... I think the continuous shooting will catch him in action , right ?



With regards to catching "action" (ie, a kid running) be it in video or pictures, it's TOUGH with mirrorless cameras. For video, I honestly don't know if they can keep up, I don't shoot enough video to be able to say. For pictures... a kid running. You're looking at a DSLR. Mirrorless cameras simply aren't fast enough as a group to be able to do that. Yet. And many of them will not continue to track the subject after the first picture when taking pictures in "continuous shooting".

Are there better cameras than the M? Sure. At that price point? I don't believe so (could be wrong). You still have $300 to your budget max so you could definitely get improved performance if you bought something else and maxed out your budget. It's just a matter of whether you want to spend the money and/or if you need the improvement. Truthfully, only you can decide that. Again, you absolutely WILL get better performance if you spend more money - and it might even be performance you want.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 30, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> So between the Sony nex5 and the eos m ... You would hands down choose the Sony nex5 ?  I was really liking the eos m .... Looks cleaner than the Sony ( call me crazy ) I like the body better .


 
One thing to be wary of on this site is people making recommendations for scam dealers, or about cameras they do not own. There is a lot of good information here, but there is a lot of information that might not be backed by actual experience with a product. Beware of that!

Stick with major and reputable camera stores like B&H, Adorama, Amazon, and a few others. some like onesaleaday.com seem to have a lot of unhappy customers.

Reseller Ratings is just one place to check out sellers. When a seller has a 4.5 / 10 rating, 65% of the buyers posting are unhappy. 1saleaday.com and 1sale.com are the same.

http://www.resellerratings.com/store/1_Sale_a_Day


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 30, 2013)

jebrady03 said:


> Lesuediane said:
> 
> 
> > I think I will order the whole kit for $400 .. Even if I find I'm wanting a bigger dslr later .. I will always have the eos m for when a smaller camera would be better suited . I have looked at sample images and they look way nice !! I could pick up a small video devise for those times when I want to record. . I like the compact size and price . I'm not really wanting to shoot him running anyway ... I think the continuous shooting will catch him in action , right ?
> ...





When looking at dslr I should consider a sl1 or t4i ... With 18-135 STM lens right ? This would catch fast action and take great continuous shots . Either one will cost around $700 . Man , than eos m for 400 with two lens sure looks appealing to me for everyday use . I'm just afraid ill be let down with blurred photos and missed smiles ;-(


----------



## jebrady03 (Oct 30, 2013)

Also keep in mind, my original recommendation in your price range was a refurbished T4i + 18-135 IS STM from Canon. For $588 (including the 20% discount with promo code ZOMBIE2143) plus tax, it's probably the best value available to you with very few compromises.

As Mt. Spokane said above, I have not ordered from 1saleaday. But, I do personally know a few people who have ordered from them (this camera) and other than shipping times, they were happy. My guess is the shipping time is the majority of the complaints against them (haven't looked to be sure).

If I were in your shoes, I'd get the T4i + 18-135. But if you REALLY want a small/portable camera, the M is very nice - especially at that price.


----------



## jebrady03 (Oct 30, 2013)

http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/cameras/refurbished-eos-digital-slr-cameras/eos-rebel-t4i-18-135mm-is-stm-lens-kit-refurbished

That's a link to the T4i - you enter the promo code at checkout.


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 30, 2013)

jebrady03 said:


> http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/cameras/refurbished-eos-digital-slr-cameras/eos-rebel-t4i-18-135mm-is-stm-lens-kit-refurbished
> 
> That's a link to the T4i - you enter the promo code at checkout.



What advantages does the t4i have over the sl1 besides the articulating screen ?


----------



## jebrady03 (Oct 30, 2013)

I'd love to help you with that but I'm wiped out and heading to bed. If you Google "T4i vs SL1" or "T5i vs SL1" you'll find quite a few articles and videos. The T4i is basically the same as the T5i (three minor changes that don't affect much of anything to be honest) so a T5i to SL1 comparison is valid for the T4i.


----------



## takesome1 (Oct 30, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> jebrady03 said:
> 
> 
> > http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/cameras/refurbished-eos-digital-slr-cameras/eos-rebel-t4i-18-135mm-is-stm-lens-kit-refurbished
> ...



Frames per second, T4i will do 5 vs 4

The other differences are minor.

View and compare here;

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 30, 2013)

jebrady03 said:


> I'd love to help you with that but I'm wiped out and heading to bed. If you Google "T4i vs SL1" or "T5i vs SL1" you'll find quite a few articles and videos. The T4i is basically the same as the T5i (three minor changes that don't affect much of anything to be honest) so a T5i to SL1 comparison is valid for the T4i.



 thanks for all your time ! Good night


----------



## jebrady03 (Oct 30, 2013)

Up with the baby thought I'd respond 

SL1 vs T5i format:
4 FPS vs 5 FPS (25% more FPS)
9 AF points with the center being a cross-type point vs 9 AF points with ALL being cross type (VERY significant, IMO)
80% AF coverage in live view vs not sure - but substantially less than 80% 
fixed touch screen vs articulating touch screen
smaller/lighter vs larger/heavier
fewer shots per battery charge vs more shots per battery charge
flash is less robust (coverage) vs flash is more robust and can be used to control speedlights

I think that's it, but there could be other things. Hope that helps!


----------



## bholliman (Oct 30, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> When looking at dslr I should consider a sl1 or t4i ... With 18-135 STM lens right ? This would catch fast action and take great continuous shots . Either one will cost around $700 . Man , than eos m for 400 with two lens sure looks appealing to me for everyday use . I'm just afraid ill be let down with blurred photos and missed smiles ;-(



I think you will be very happy with either of these cameras. The SL1 is considerably smaller, which could be an advantage or disadvantage depending on your preference.

The 18-135 STM lens isn't cheap, goes for roughly $550. If that's above your budget, you can probably get by with the 18-55 STM kit lens and can add the longer lens later. You mentioned earlier that you didn't want to change lenses frequently, so the 18-135 would be the ideal option for that.


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 30, 2013)

jebrady03 said:


> Up with the baby thought I'd respond
> 
> SL1 vs T5i format:
> 4 FPS vs 5 FPS (25% more FPS)
> ...



I think I would benefit fri, the articulating screen , and with the refurbished deal with 18-135 STM lens at $588 I just don't think I can bet that deal . That being said if I were to add another smaller lens for indoors would a cheap 50mm be ideal ? Or the 18-55mm or 40mm ? @jebrady .... You have been a TON of help thank you for taking the time to help me !!


----------



## jebrady03 (Oct 30, 2013)

For indoors, many people find 50mm too "long". Usually, a wider angle is preferred indoors. One option to consider would be an external flash that can be bounced. I have the 430exII. Something you could do is pick up one of those (or similar) and use it for a while, then check and see what focal lengths you're using most often, that would tell you what small prime might work best for you for indoor shots. 
You're welcome for the help, I'm happy to be of assistance and hope that you find we've all given you a thorough examination of your options!


----------



## Ruined (Oct 30, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> I think I would benefit fri, the articulating screen , and with the refurbished deal with 18-135 STM lens at $588 I just don't think I can bet that deal .



I agree, I would buy ASAP because these deals sell out fast. The 18-135mm STM is the perfect starter lens due to its wide focal length range as well as its superior performance in video due to the STM. It will be your workhorse.



> hat being said if I were to add another smaller lens for indoors would a cheap 50mm be ideal ? Or the 18-55mm or 40mm ? @jebrady .... You have been a TON of help thank you for taking the time to help me !!



Actually, the best small indoor lens would IMO be the Canon EF 28mm F/2.8 IS USM:
http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/lenses-flashes/wide-angle-lenses/ef-28mm-f-28-is-usm

This lens is ideal because it matches the diagonal of the sensor and gives the perfect "normal" field of view for this camera. Meaning it will be like taking pictures as similar to what you see with your own eyes. It is also one of the smallest lenses available and has image stabilization plus constant f/2.8 aperature which helps greatly for indoors low light. The 18-55mm is slower & lower quality than this lens plus is redundant with your 18-135, while the 40mm is too long for indoors and lacks IS.


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 30, 2013)

jebrady03 said:


> For indoors, many people find 50mm too "long". Usually, a wider angle is preferred indoors. One option to consider would be an external flash that can be bounced. I have the 430exII. Something you could do is pick up one of those (or similar) and use it for a while, then check and see what focal lengths you're using most often, that would tell you what small prime might work best for you for indoor shots.
> You're welcome for the help, I'm happy to be of assistance and hope that you find we've all given you a thorough examination of your options!



Yes you all have . 

The 70d is just too expensive for my taste ( right now anyway )

The sl1 is the same price as the t4i and lacks some of the functions I would like .. ( the articulating screen, 9 cross points , more fps ) 

The t5i is a bit more expensive than the t4i ( for no good reason , IMO ) 

The eos m size it Very appealing to me but I feel I will get more blurred photos than in focus ones , and maybe miss a lot of smiles due to it being slower .... 

The t4i seems like my ideal option , paired with the 18-135 STM Lens I will be able to shoot great video . That lens would cost me 400ish , so with the refurb deal I'm getting the body for $200. Ill need to pick up a smaller lens for family gatherings but that shouldn't break the bank ... 

Going to do a little more researching before making my decision ... But I've pretty much made my mind up thanks to all the help I found here . Look forward to growing , and being a part of this little community !!!


----------



## jebrady03 (Oct 30, 2013)

Ruined said:


> Lesuediane said:
> 
> 
> > I think I would benefit fri, the articulating screen , and with the refurbished deal with 18-135 STM lens at $588 I just don't think I can bet that deal .
> ...



I think the 28mm 2.8 IS is likely a great lens, but I hesitated to recommend it without knowing more about the amount of light in the OP's house. In my house, 2.8 isn't sufficient to get speeds fast enough to freeze even minor motion at a decent ISO. 2.0 seems to get the job done though. In my house the Canon 28mm 1.8 or Sigma 30mm 1.4 ART would be better solutions. IS is GREAT but if you can't freeze motion you're simply trading one type of blur for another (camera shake vs subject blur). At 28-30mm, the shutter speed to freeze motion (1/60 usually, or higher) will compensate for any normal camera shake. 
All of that is moot if she prefers a different focal length though, which is why I think an external flash isn't a bad idea. Getting one refurbished at a discount may be very cost effective as well.


----------



## KyleSTL (Oct 30, 2013)

Three other good lenses for indoors:

EF 35mm f/2 IS USM - $550
EF 28mm f/1.8 USM - $450
Sigma 30mm f/1.4 HSM DC Art - $500

And the EF 28mm f/2.8 IS USM mentioned by Ruined ($500 currently). Here's a good website for tracking current prices, deals etc:

http://www.canonpricewatch.com/

Unfortunately Canon has not made an APS-C fast normal lens like Nikon (AF-S 35mm f/1.8G DX - $200), so the Sigma prime is the only non-FF option (and isn't significantly cheaper than the Canon options, but does have a 2/3 stop advantage in aperture).


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 30, 2013)

KyleSTL said:


> Three other good lenses for indoors:
> 
> EF 35mm f/2 IS USM - $550
> EF 28mm f/1.8 USM - $450
> ...




How would the cheaper 40mm lens line up ? Not really wanting to spend a ton right now as I'm buying the refurbished kit .. Trying to stay within my budget . I like the small size of the 40mm, any other small cheap options ?


----------



## Ruined (Oct 30, 2013)

KyleSTL said:


> EF 28mm f/1.8 USM - $450



The other lenses you mentioned are good, but this one I would not recommend. Though it is fast, it has severe image quality sacrifices even when stepped down compared to any of the other lenses mentioned. It might be good for a special effect here and there due to the speed, but I would not recommend for a general lens.


----------



## jebrady03 (Oct 30, 2013)

Ruined said:


> KyleSTL said:
> 
> 
> > EF 28mm f/1.8 USM - $450
> ...



I've never used it but I've read that most of the image quality sacrifices are on the periphery of the image circle and and thus, when used on a crop sensor those disadvantages are largely negated. Is this true?


----------



## Ruined (Oct 30, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> How would the cheaper 40mm lens line up ? Not really wanting to spend a ton right now as I'm buying the refurbished kit .. Trying to stay within my budget . I like the small size of the 40mm, any other small cheap options ?



I owned the 40mm on the same camera, and sold it. My thoughts:
* Felt cheap, and I was afraid it would break
* No IS
* The 28mm f/2.8 IS USM which I also owned was barely any larger, better quality images, image stabilization, more sturdy, and more useful focal length for crop cameras.
* While the focal length of 40mm is great for full frame camera, it is weird for a crop camera like the one you are buying. For crop you have to multiple the focal length by 1.6 to get the effective field of view, so a 40mm on crop looks like a 64mm on full frame. 64mm is far too long for indoors, yet a bit too short for portrait work. Thus it is not too useful on a crop camera like the one you are buying. You want to stay in the 24mm-35mm range for indoors work with a crop camera, with 28mm being the "normal" sweet spot as it nearly is identical to the sensor diagonal on a 1.6 crop like the one you are getting.

You could try to get a used 28mm f/2.8 non-IS lens, they go for relatively cheap - but it kind of defeats the purpose as the 18-135mm is probably better in image quality than such an old lens. The new 28mm f/2.8 IS version is worlds better in image quality, approaching the quality of $1000+ L-series lenses while being less than half the price.

I would not buy another lens just to buy a lens, you should really look at what would benefit you. Getting a 18-55mm duplicates the 18-135 and doesn't buy you any image quality or speed, and the 40mm is too awkward of a focal length for crop camera like you are buying. A lot of the cheaper lenses are just going to be quality compromises that will likely disappoint you in the long run.

If you cannot afford the 28mm IS USM and want another lens, how about the 55-250 STM? That would be extremely useful for outdoors/telephoto and it is only $349.00. That is one you will keep for a long time to come and not be disappointed in. It is brand new and has image quality that rivals the $1500 70-300L.

Then, when you have some cash saved up, grab the 28mm f/2.8 IS USM for a small lens for higher quality indoor photos.


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 30, 2013)

Ruined said:


> Lesuediane said:
> 
> 
> > How would the cheaper 40mm lens line up ? Not really wanting to spend a ton right now as I'm buying the refurbished kit .. Trying to stay within my budget . I like the small size of the 40mm, any other small cheap options ?
> ...




So the 18-135 should be fine for the time being .. I can take head shots and zoom a little ? Maybe ill ask for the 28mm for my bday (in may )


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 30, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> Ruined said:
> 
> 
> > Lesuediane said:
> ...




Also when buying a spare battery is buying a cheaper brand ok or No ?


----------



## Ruined (Oct 30, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> So the 18-135 should be fine for the time being .. I can take head shots and zoom a little ? Maybe ill ask for the 28mm for my bday (in may )



Yes, the 18-135mm STM (make sure you get STM) covers all the regular focal lengths, great for groups and even landscapes - but also great for portraits. It is truly a do-all lens and you can use it for some time. Is it the best lens in the world? No, because it is a somewhat slow lens with speeds f/3.5-f/5.6, generally for best indoors quality f/2.8 or lower + IS is the key for outstanding pictures. If you use flash, though, you can overcome the speed issue. The 430EXII is a great starter flash to use, as it is much more powerful than the onboard popup flash and allows you to bounce flash off walls unlike the popup flash. Anyway- the 18-135mm will cover most of your needs just fine.

Beyond the 18-135mm STM, these are some of the lenses I'd personally recommend considering for the future. Obviously not all of them as they are expensive, but they are the standout lenses for the camera you are buying.
1) Canon EF-S 55-250 STM for telephoto work
2) Canon EF 28mm f/2.8 IS USM for a compact "normal" lens for indoors and general use, really feels the most natural focal length with this camera
3) Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM for an ultra high quality standard/portrait zoom (large, expensive)
4) Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-5.6 USM for ultra-wide landscapes
5) Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L IS USM Macro if you ever get interested in macro closeup photography (large, very expensive)
6) Don't forget a high quality flash - 600RT-EX if you have the money, if not 430EXII will be a great starter flash.


----------



## Zv (Oct 30, 2013)

Forget the 40mm or any prime lens just now. If you get to the stage where you find a need for an additional lens - that's when you buy it. 

You wouldn't buy daipers if you didn't have any babies would ya? Once the little guys start poopin that's probably when you're gonna want them! 

Same with photography I believe. Too many folk buy stuff they don't fully understand. Once you have mastered the kit lens (which is tricky!) only then ask yourself - right, what am I missing out on? What can this lens NOT do! You'll find the answer is not very much if you try hard enough. 

Think of the kit lens as your learner plates. You take them off once you pass. To pass you need to be familiar with the M mode dial on the camera like it's your best buddy. You need to dream about ISO numbers and have nightmares about contrast ratios. And then come on here and post about dynamic range and lack therof. 

OK I went too far. It's late and am cranky!


----------



## Lesuediane (Oct 30, 2013)

Zv said:


> Forget the 40mm or any prime lens just now. If you get to the stage where you find a need for an additional lens - that's when you buy it.
> 
> You wouldn't buy daipers if you didn't have any babies would ya? Once the little guys start poopin that's probably when you're gonna want them!
> 
> ...



Great advice ! Thank u


----------



## KyleSTL (Oct 31, 2013)

I totally agree with Zv about starting off with just the 18-135 STM and becoming accustomed to using it and master it's operation. At that point you'll know what your missing (lens too slow, need more telephoto, need wider angles, need macro lens, need more light). At that point use Ruined's list as a guide for your next purchase. None of us will know your style, shooting habits and therefore needs, so it would be a disservice to recommend another lens without knowing whether it is necessary for your needs.


----------



## kphoto99 (Nov 3, 2013)

I have the T4i and the 18-135mm STM lens, so I can say that it will server you well. 
In case you don't know this, everytime you take a picture, the camera records lots of information about the setings inside of the picture file, it is called EXIF data. So after a while look at the pictures you like and see at what focal length your lens was when the pictures were taken. This should give you an idea what focal length you new lens should be.

For indoor photography many people have recommended that you get an external flash. I would recommend the Yongnuo YN568EX, it works very well with the T4i and older (does not work with EOS-M). You can get it for about $170 from the Yongnuo eBay store.


----------



## Lesuediane (Nov 3, 2013)

Well after much consideration I ordered a factory refurbished t4i with 18-135 STM lens .. Im excited to began my photography journey .. I will keep everyone posted . Thank you for all your help. Truly !!


----------



## jebrady03 (Nov 3, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> Well after much consideration I ordered a factory refurbished t4i with 18-135 STM lens .. Im excited to began my photography journey .. I will keep everyone posted . Thank you for all your help. Truly !!



Congrats! Enjoy it!


----------



## Zv (Nov 3, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> Well after much consideration I ordered a factory refurbished t4i with 18-135 STM lens .. Im excited to began my photography journey .. I will keep everyone posted . Thank you for all your help. Truly !!



A marvelous choice, well done! It'll serve you well! Enjoy!


----------



## drob (Nov 3, 2013)

Congrats on your purchase. It's hard to read all the previous advice but I've been where you are...new parent. Bought the 60D with 18-135mm kit lens a few years ago. It was a good start but I wanted the ability to shoot indoors without a flash and the ability to blur the background. Nearly impossible with the kit. I highly recommend the Canon 50mm 1.8 (around $100) or, if you can spend a little more money, the Sigma 30mm 1.4 (older version) will give you the ability to shoot in low light and blur the backgrounds. After all, I'm sure the images you envision involve the nice blurred background (bokeh) with child popping out. At least I did. I shoot with the prime lens about 90% of the time and learned to move my feet fast for the zooming. I use the kit lens as a travel lens...zoo trips, vacation, etc....Also, the 60D is horrible for videos. Finally, just resorted to my iphone for videos. It's good video quality and easy to share. Pulling huge video files from your DSLR and editing them is difficult and time consuming. I also resorted to camcorder for school concerts/plays, etc....good luck.

Also don't be intimated by the manual mode. You don't need to use it starting off. Av is fine, let's you control the aperture and the camera does the rest. 1st pic is outdoor with my 50mm f/2.8, ISO 100, 1/500sec. 2nd pic is indoors with my Sigma 30mm f/2.0, ISO 1000, 1/40sec (2nd file is low quality version). Both in Av mode with my Canon 60D. 

Also, I never use a flash, never thought I might need one. Place your child near a window.


----------



## bholliman (Nov 3, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> Well after much consideration I ordered a factory refurbished t4i with 18-135 STM lens .. Im excited to began my photography journey .. I will keep everyone posted . Thank you for all your help. Truly !!



Congratulations! I think you will really enjoy this camera/lens combo. Post some shots taken with your new gear when you have time. We'd love to see them.


----------



## Lesuediane (Nov 3, 2013)

drob said:


> Congrats on your purchase. It's hard to read all the previous advice but I've been where you are...new parent. Bought the 60D with 18-135mm kit lens a few years ago. It was a good start but I wanted the ability to shoot indoors without a flash and the ability to blur the background. Nearly impossible with the kit. I highly recommend the Canon 50mm 1.8 (around $100) or, if you can spend a little more money, the Sigma 30mm 1.4 (older version) will give you the ability to shoot in low light and blur the backgrounds. After all, I'm sure the images you envision involve the nice blurred background (bokeh) with child popping out. At least I did. I shoot with the prime lens about 90% of the time and learned to move my feet fast for the zooming. I use the kit lens as a travel lens...zoo trips, vacation, etc....Also, the 60D is horrible for videos. Finally, just resorted to my iphone for videos. It's good video quality and easy to share. Pulling huge video files from your DSLR and editing them is difficult and time consuming. I also resorted to camcorder for school concerts/plays, etc....good luck.
> 
> Also don't be intimated by the manual mode. You don't need to use it starting off. Av is fine, let's you control the aperture and the camera does the rest. 1st pic is outdoor with my 50mm f/2.8, ISO 100, 1/500sec. 2nd pic is indoors with my Sigma 30mm f/2.0, ISO 1000, 1/40sec (2nd file is low quality version). Both in Av mode with my Canon 60D.
> 
> Also, I never use a flash, never thought I might need one. Place your child near a window.



So you would suggest the 50mm over the 40mm ? I almost ordered the 50mm when I ordered the camera , talked myself out of it .


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Nov 3, 2013)

The Canon 50mm F1.8 lens is already outdated and it is also very fragile, but it can be a "toy" fun. The canon 40mm F2.8 produces high quality images and is much more durable. However, it is prudent to get used to 18-135 STM and see what view angle you need more. Remember that both 40mm and 50mm cited has no image stabilizer, not correct shake the hands of the photographer. Rumored to be launching a 50mm image-stabilized soon. If you do not want to wait, then canon 50mm F1.4 has better performance in low light. Even so, buy the lens hood to protect the 50mm F1.4 and never remove it from your lens.


----------



## drob (Nov 3, 2013)

Honestly don't have experience with the 40mm f2/8. However, if you were going to experiment with video the 40mm 2.8 would be a better lens since it has the STM motor on it. I also read it has a better build quality to it. The 50mm 1.8 is plastic, feels cheap, and has a loud autofocus (still a great lens for 100 dollars even with the draw backs). Either way, the image quality will far exceed the 18-135mm. Don't get me wrong, the kit lens will amaze you coming from your cell phone camera, but when I upgraded to a DSLR I wanted to have a little more creative freedom than the kit lens offered. 

Here are a few good websites to learn about your new craft:
http://www.merakoh.com/
http://digital-photography-school.com/
http://www.elizabethhalford.com/

Image attached is with the 50mm f/1.8. I did sell this lens and upgrade to the 50mm 1.4, but the 1.8 is a great learning lens where you don't have to invest a lot. There is a rumor Canon is coming out with an IS version but I'm sure the price will be high. Camera shake is a concern with non-IS lens, but again, that is where you learn the craft.


----------



## msm (Nov 3, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> drob said:
> 
> 
> > Congrats on your purchase. It's hard to read all the previous advice but I've been where you are...new parent. Bought the 60D with 18-135mm kit lens a few years ago. It was a good start but I wanted the ability to shoot indoors without a flash and the ability to blur the background. Nearly impossible with the kit. I highly recommend the Canon 50mm 1.8 (around $100) or, if you can spend a little more money, the Sigma 30mm 1.4 (older version) will give you the ability to shoot in low light and blur the backgrounds. After all, I'm sure the images you envision involve the nice blurred background (bokeh) with child popping out. At least I did. I shoot with the prime lens about 90% of the time and learned to move my feet fast for the zooming. I use the kit lens as a travel lens...zoo trips, vacation, etc....Also, the 60D is horrible for videos. Finally, just resorted to my iphone for videos. It's good video quality and easy to share. Pulling huge video files from your DSLR and editing them is difficult and time consuming. I also resorted to camcorder for school concerts/plays, etc....good luck.
> ...



I would avoid the 50mm f1.8 as it has very inaccurate focusing (at least mine does), so I would instead consider the f1.4. The 40mm is sharp and has accurate AF, if you can live with the narrower aperture.


----------



## drob (Nov 4, 2013)

The 50mm 1.8 gets good reviews on amazon, B&h, Adorama, etc...yes it is an older lens and there are probably inaccurate copies out there but generally it's a good lens for starting. If you buy new from one of those sites, you'd have no problem exchanging it for a different lens if it were a bad copy. Sure the 50mm 1.4 is better but cost 3x as much. 

If you look around at other child photographers and their work, many are shooting with prime lenses and/or 24-70mm f2.8 or 70-200 f2.8 lens. You'd be hard pressed to find any photographer taking pics of children with a kit lens.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 4, 2013)

drob said:


> If you look around at other child photographers and their work, many are shooting with prime lenses and/or 24-70mm f2.8 or 70-200 f2.8 lens. You'd be hard pressed to find any photographer taking pics of children with a kit lens.



Depends on where you look. Many portrait studios use 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 kit lenses on APS-C bodies, and they work fine. When you have control over lighting (and lots of it) and background, f/6.3-8 works well.


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Nov 4, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> drob said:
> 
> 
> > If you look around at other child photographers and their work, many are shooting with prime lenses and/or 24-70mm f2.8 or 70-200 f2.8 lens. You'd be hard pressed to find any photographer taking pics of children with a kit lens.
> ...


Yes, those who ask about equipment for a specific purpose, expect proper answers to your questions. I think it would sadism on my part, if I recommend as must have for photos and videos of children Canon 5D mark III + 24-70 II + 70-200 II. I would only make such a recommendation if the OP said she wants to print paper larger than 1 meter long.


----------



## distant.star (Nov 4, 2013)

.
Looks like you've made a wise choice.

I predict two years from now, one of these two will be the case:

1. You will bring the camera out once in a while to take pictures for special occasions -- birthdays, holidays, etc. Otherwise, it stays in a closet.

2. You will be taking pictures all the time and will be feeling the limitations of that body and lens. You may have acquired another lens or two -- and you'll be here asking whether folks think you should get the 7D2 or a full frame.

Either way, the camera you're getting will have been a good choice.


----------



## Ruined (Nov 4, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> drob said:
> 
> 
> > If you look around at other child photographers and their work, many are shooting with prime lenses and/or 24-70mm f2.8 or 70-200 f2.8 lens. You'd be hard pressed to find any photographer taking pics of children with a kit lens.
> ...



This is true. There is a massive misconception that pros usually do portraits at f/2 and below, while if in controlled setting usually the opposite is true. If you have proper lighting, best results are often gotten at f/8 instead of f/2. So in these situations, you could easily use a slow lens and get decent results. You would still probably get better sharpness and less artifacts out of a medium quality prime than a kit lens, but this would likely not be an earth-shattering difference.

I have done fantastic portraits myself using a T4i, 17-55mm f/2.8 @ f/8 55mm, three 600ex-rts, a couple of softboxes, and an x-drop backdrop kit. 

But, if you are just going to be doing portraits off-the-cuff with say a single flash/no flash, this is where a faster lens comes into play. For the T4i, you could go with a prime like the nifty fifty, or with the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM for a little better control framing+IS.


----------



## Lesuediane (Nov 4, 2013)

distant.star said:


> .
> Looks like you've made a wise choice.
> 
> I predict two years from now, one of these two will be the case:
> ...



Thank you . I too a, wondering where this little camera will take me.. I do feel confident in my choice. I can learn on this camera and upgrade in two or so years to something "better " if need be ;-)


----------



## Ruined (Nov 4, 2013)

Lesuediane said:


> So you would suggest the 50mm over the 40mm ? I almost ordered the 50mm when I ordered the camera , talked myself out of it .



With prime lenses there are probably two situations you'd want to target at first:
1) "Walkaround" general purpose lens - on APS-C ranges between 24mm-35mm
2) "Portrait" lens - on APS-C ranges between 40mm-60mm

One thing to consider before buying a prime lens is not only the focal length and speed which are often the primary characteristics people focus on, but also other factors that will greatly affect image quality such as: sharpness across the frame, chromatic aberration, autofocus speed, build quality, image stabilization.

So some of the portrait lenses that are popular on APS-C specifically are:
1) EF 40mm pancake prime - Portable, light, quiet focus, nice bokeh, and better overall image quality than the 50mm f/1.8. The only problem is that 40mm is on the short end for portraiture focal length wise. But that aside, this lens will generally have better output than the 50mm 1.8. No IS.

2) EF 50mm f/1.8 II prime - Portable, light, but loud focus and harsh bokeh that looks like pentagons instead of circles at f/4 and over. No IS. Build quality is pretty bad and this lens (or the 1.4) will most likely be replaced by the 50mm f/1.8 IS within the next 6 months - though that lens will easily be over $500 when it comes out.

3) EF 50mm f/1.4 USM prime - Larger than the first two, decent bokeh but still not as good as many other Canon lenses. Autofocus mechanism seems to break very easily on this lens. No image stabilization.

4) EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM - I have heard great things about this one, and while you will need a bit more space to shoot with it, you will you will likely get better results than you would on any of the first three above based on the feedback I've heard. Plus it can be used for close up macro photography in addition to portraits. Not really any downsides on this lens aside from it lacks IS and is more expensive than the first three.

5) EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM Zoom - This is one of the best lenses available for the T4i, and I personally have shot some excellent portraits with it. The build quality and optical quality are both top notch, and it is extremely versatile. It can be used as a wide angle, portrait, or anywhere in between. At f/2.8 it is much faster than a kit lens, and it has image stabilization. If you were to buy only two additional lenses for your t4i ever, I'd recommend this one and the 55-250 STM. Note that it is likely that the 50 1.8 IS will likely trump this lens in image quality once it is released (since it apparently uses the same optical design as the fantastic stabilized 24-28-35mm lenses).

In summary: The 40mm is too short for portraiture and lacks IS, the 50 1.8 has poor bokeh&build and lacks IS, and the 50 1.4 has a track record of breaking easily and still isn't quite up to snuff with modern standards. The 60mm Macro would be a good buy IMO if you can cope with it lacking IS.

So, my recommendation would be:
* to save up for the 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM zoom (great quality, most flexible, has IS ~$799)
* get the EF-S 60mm Macro (great quality, and has macro mode, most affordable of these at ~$399)
* wait for the upcoming 50mm f/1.8 IS USM (best quality, has IS, but isn't available yet ~$599)


----------



## MovingViolations (Nov 4, 2013)

jebrady03 said:


> Lesuediane said:
> 
> 
> > Well after much consideration I ordered a factory refurbished t4i with 18-135 STM lens .. Im excited to began my photography journey .. I will keep everyone posted . Thank you for all your help. Truly !!
> ...


I think you made a great choice for starting out. I started with a 10D before the Rebel series was introduced. My brother still shoots great images with the original 6mp Rebel. My current 1D MII is still serving it's purpose but I too want a smaller lighter body for hand holding. I hear the 70D calling my name.


----------



## bholliman (Nov 4, 2013)

Ruined said:


> So, my recommendation would be:
> * to save up for the 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM zoom (great quality, most flexible, has IS)
> * get the EF-S 60mm Macro (great quality, and has macro mode, most affordable)
> * wait for the upcoming 50mm f/1.8 IS USM (best quality, has IS, but isn't available yet)



+1, also as Ruined pointed out, the EF-S 55-250 STM is a terrific lens if you need something with more reach than your 135mm.

@Lesuediane - Don't feel that you need to buy additional lenses or other equipment at this point. Many of us here in the CR Forum are afflicted with G.A.S. (gear acquisition syndrome) :, so recommendations for newer, faster and better equipment is the norm. I recommend spending at a year or longer getting familiar with your new gear and then evaluate. I know people who have are perfectly content with a Rebel and kit (18-55) lens for years and never feel the need to buy anything else. The camera and lens you are buying will make excellent pictures and videos.


----------



## dcm (Nov 4, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> drob said:
> 
> 
> > If you look around at other child photographers and their work, many are shooting with prime lenses and/or 24-70mm f2.8 or 70-200 f2.8 lens. You'd be hard pressed to find any photographer taking pics of children with a kit lens.
> ...



The key is to learn how to get the best photos out of the equipment you have before you begin adding more gear. This helps you identify where your gear is holding you back and what you might want to upgrade.

Several years ago on vacation I ran into a photographer using the studio supplied EF 28-135 (~$500) lens on a 1DsMkII (~$8000) body for outdoor family portraits. Once again, lots of light and a good background (lake with mountains in the distance). He knew how to get the most out of it so the photos turned out well, but we both figured they might be a bit better with an L series lens.


----------



## drob (Nov 5, 2013)

Don't want to be argumentative with any fellow photographers but would some one please post a quality/clean/low noise image of a child/baby, indoors, without flashes and soft boxes, and nice bokeh taken with a kit lens?? I was amazed with my kit lens and 60d indoors at an ISO of 1600 but again, having the ability with a 50mm to blur the background and block the clutter in my kitchen or the multitudes of background toys was priceless. For 100 dollars, it was a great investment for the 50mm 1.8 and have gotten many images of my children not possible with higher apertures of the kit lens.


----------



## Grumbaki (Nov 5, 2013)

Ruined said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > drob said:
> ...



While generally agreeing with the convo, there's one more misconception in your statement. Most lenses are not at their sharpest at f8. One can view that during a simple Focal test. Quite a few of my L are at their sharpest at f5.6.


----------

