# Making a group photo



## Jack56 (Dec 14, 2015)

Hi all.
Thursday I'll have to make some photo's of groups of children. The biggest group is about thirty children.
It's in a fairly dark hall, with all kind of lights (Christmas you know).
Which lens would you use? I've got the 27-70 2.8, the 70-200 IS 2.8 and the 16-35 IS f4. Have you got any other tips?
I like to make hand-held shots by the way. 
Thanks!


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## ajfotofilmagem (Dec 14, 2015)

I would avoid anything more wide than 24mm, it distorts people's heads close to photo corners. Then 24-70mm and bounce flash on the ceiling, it seems the best option.

Do not forget to make a few dozen shots to hit the lottery of perfect smiles.


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

There are many many other more experienced group photographers on this site that I can't wait to see responses from and learn a thing or two myself about what they would do in this scenario. Here is my _inexperienced_ input based on a small amount of group shots I have taken.

- What's the goal of the images? Print? For sale? Snapshots for facebook/online, web, etc? Will you be paid or is it a favor asked of you because "you have a nice camera"?

- You don't mention what camera you are using or if you will be using lights. This is important to know based on sensor size, low light tolerance and how high of ISO you'll be able to tolerate. And all of that will impact what your aperture limits will be.

- You mention "dark hall (low light)" and "hand held" and "children" all together. Unless you are God himself, you'll have to let one of those go. Just like you have the "exposure triangle", you have just described the "triangle of blur". Yeah, I just made that up. But it's no less true. Give up the hand held if you want to have any hope of controlling ISO noise and even then it will be a challenge to get a sharp shot with squirming children.

You also don't mention how much room you have to work in. The farther away from your group you can get, the more compression and forgiveness you get on your aperture, overall focus and background. That's assuming you have decent and even available light. If you have to use a flash(s), everything changes.

Here is your challenge in a nutshell. You need to get an even exposure with acceptable ISO noise that is in focus of a moving group of fidgeting blinking kiddos that is spread across the frame. Depending on your lens and your distance to the group, you will need at least f/4.5-5.6 (ideally smaller) to get everyone in focus and at least a 1/125 to 1/160 shutter to stop the movement. Going any higher than ISO 1600 - 3200 depending on your sensor limits will severely limit what you can do in post to fix exposure and manage noise.

Again, I am interested to hear what others suggest. You also don't mention what time of day (or night) this will happen. It sounds like everyone is counting on you to be the person to capture some great pictures of their little darlings so it behooves you to perhaps discuss your light challenges with the organizers and see if you can move the group outside or find a way to add more light to the spot where they want you to work.


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> I would avoid anything more wide than 24mm, it distorts people's heads close to photo corners. Then 24mm F2.8 and bounce flash on the ceiling, it seems the best option.
> 
> Do not forget to make a few dozen shots to hit the lottery of perfect smiles.



I agree with the bouncing of light to spread the light out and create a larger light source but you say you are in a "HALL". If it has a really high ceiling or if the ceiling is dark, this won't help you. And using f/2.8 to shoot a large group at 24mm will result in many faces farther back or front of the focus point being out of focus. You might get away with f/2.8 or f/3.5 if you shot from farther back using the 200mm lens, but not if you are up close. 30 children will likely be at least 3 or 4 rows deep of about 6-8 kids on each row. That's a big group! Are you taking a step ladder or will they have a riser available? Don't put kids on chairs! It's easy to lose your balance when staring at a camera and trying to smile, be still, look nice and listen. SAFETY FIRST!!

In case you haven't guessed, group portraits are harder than they look!

I suggest you get a few people together and do a bunch of test shots at the same spot at the same time of day with the same Christmas lights on that will be used on Thursday night. Arrange them both 3-4 deep and try to get a person on each side of the frame too. This is your best insurance against failure. Practice makes perfect. Be prepared and know your limits.

Take what you learn from your test shots and come back here with more info to help us help you.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Dec 14, 2015)

RustyTheGeek said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > I would avoid anything more wide than 24mm, it distorts people's heads close to photo corners. Then 24mm F2.8 and bounce flash on the ceiling, it seems the best option.
> ...


I edited the piece I wrote F2.8 it seemed that I recommended using the lens at maximum aperture.

Great advice, especially about the test in the same location and lighting. Yes, the ideal is to do a well lit place, using more than one flash, or more powerful lamps.


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## anthonyd (Dec 14, 2015)

Besides the lends (which I agree it shouldn't be wider than 24mm) do some browsing on photo sites to get ideas on how to place the kids. With 30 people in a group it's important that the group is not very deep otherwise you will loose the ability to open the aperture wide (and keep everybody in focus).

Also, to spice it up, since they are kids and they might loose their patience, try changing the shooting angle dramatically, if possible. How about climbing on something so they are all looking up? Or putting the camera on the floor facing up and the kids in a circle around it leaning forward and looking at it? Even if these shots don't work out, it might buy you some more minutes of joy and some more smiling faces.


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

BTW, you listed some GREAT lenses. So I would guess you probably have a 5DIII. If that is indeed the case, you can probably get away with ISO 3200 if this isn't going to be printed very large. Getting even lighting at an acceptable aperture / shutter speed will still be a significant challenge however.

If you have a tripod and some kind of wireless trigger, by all means USE THEM! Use gaffer tape or painters' tape and mark the limits of where you want folks to stand.

Another HUGE TIP!! _Get a cat herder!!_ Seriously! You need at least one if not three assistants to help get the kids placed, arranged, checked over and then managed as you try to get some good shots. Watch for food on the face, mouth, lips, hair, clothes, etc. Trust me, when you zoom in during post, you'll find all kinds of things on kids' faces.

The more you prepare, the smoother this will run and more professional you will look. Pro photography is honestly less about photography and more about logistics and having a friendly personality and making people relax, have fun and smile.


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

anthonyd said:


> Besides the lends (which I agree it shouldn't be wider than 24mm) do some browsing on photo sites to get ideas on how to place the kids. With 30 people in a group it's important that the group is not very deep otherwise you will loose the ability to open the aperture wide (and keep everybody in focus).
> 
> Also, to spice it up, since they are kids and they might loose their patience, try changing the shooting angle dramatically, if possible. How about climbing on something so they are all looking up? Or putting the camera on the floor facing up and the kids in a circle around it leaning forward and looking at it? Even if these shots don't work out, it might buy you some more minutes of joy and some more smiling faces.



These are some interesting ideas, it's always fun to be creative. But be careful you don't run out of time or kids' patience. Get the boring group "insurance" shots first. And when the kids are in place, joke around a minute, be silly, get them laughing and let them get the giggles out before you ask for a lot of still compliance. While they are laughing and giggling, shoot a lot of frames! You'll be amazed at how many adorable shots you'll get while kids are being kids. Even if it's just a few kids, you might be able to crop a bit and have some smaller sub-group shots that will make some parents extremely happy. (And you'll be a hero.)


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## pwp (Dec 14, 2015)

Successful group photos are an unexpectedly skillful area. Getting great group photos is a rare, underestimated skill. It's all in the setup. The more people you have in the shot requires exponentially more setup and arrangement. So you can see the people in the back of shot, an elevated shooting position is useful. Bring a ladder! If you're using lighting, be aware that people throw shadows, so try to keep the lighting reasonable flat. If lighting from both sides, consider putting the people with the palest skin in the centre where the light will be weakest. Don't worry too much about blinks. It's a very quick and simple matter to "borrow" eyes from an adjacent frame. In larger groups I often get two people to act as "bookends" to the shot. Position them on each side at the right and left extremities of your composition. If you need to use a wide lens, don't put fatties at the side...they'll look bigger. Put the skinnies at the side. Obviously taller ones at the back, shorties at the front. 

Keep them engaged with chat and humour. You need their undivided attention so be entertaining. You are the Captain! Have your lighting 100% tuned and ready well before a single person steps onto the set. Most of your time will be arranging people. Once you've got them in place shoot like crazy and keep up the chat. Once you're confident you've got the shot encourage them to go nuts...you might get your best shot at this point. 

Good luck. If you can carve out a recognizable skill at doing great group shots, you'll have a marketable skill.

-pw


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## Pookie (Dec 14, 2015)

All great advice... this is unfortunately how I make a lot of money here in the bay area. I say unfortunate because it is often the most difficult job you'll have on site. It's either corporate events, family or children's group that I am hired to do. It's the biggest reason I have 3 [email protected] 1100ws... nothing lights a group better and everything else is really a compromise when using less power. 

Again, all have made good points above and it is advice found easily on the net... my favorite piece of advice though hasn't been mentioned though so I'll throw it out. It works with adults as well as children. Right before taking the "money" shots I yell out to the group, "If you can't see my lens... I can't see your face!!!" I will tell children (and sometimes adults) that if they look closely they should see a red flash in my lens. That lets them know I'm taking the picture. This is usually the AF locking on and rarely does anyone see it but it does get people to try and see it... and then you have faces looking right at you.

Also, I will usually fiddle with the camera intentionally for a minute or so as people are getting setup for the shot... take photos then too!!! Often there are missed moments where people are joking around and generally at ease. These images can be pure gold sometimes...

Best of luck !!!


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## expatinasia (Dec 15, 2015)

Pookie said:


> Right before taking the "money" shots I yell out to the group, "If you can't see my lens... I can't see your face!!!" I will tell children (and sometimes adults) that if they look closely they should see a red flash in my lens. That lets them know I'm taking the picture. This is usually the AF locking on and rarely does anyone see it but it does get people to try and see it... and then you have faces looking right at you.
> 
> Also, I will usually fiddle with the camera intentionally for a minute or so as people are getting setup for the shot... take photos then too!!! Often there are missed moments where people are joking around and generally at ease. These images can be pure gold sometimes...
> 
> Best of luck !!!



This is a very good point. The only group shots I ever really take are when they are loads of other photographers elbowing each other for position and trying to get the few (not 30, like in this case) people all to look at you at the same time. It's very annoying but nothing worse than one person looking at you and another looking at the guy to your right etc.

I do however take individual shots quite a bit, and sometimes the location where someone wants me to shoot is just not suitable. I try to control this situation and look for alternatives, explaining why they work better. Not sure if you can do this in your case, but it is worth considering.


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## Valvebounce (Dec 15, 2015)

Hi Jack. 
Try setting low speed continuous drive and take pairs (at least) of shots, people often visibly relax and poses become less strained after they hear the shutter, then they tighten up before the next shot. 
Best advice I've seen though is get wranglers to control the subjects. 

Cheers, Graham.


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## Jack56 (Dec 16, 2015)

Thank you all for the time you have invested. I really do appreciate this.
I have changed my plans.
Yes, I have got a mark5dIII and I am working at a school. People know I do like photography and that's why they asked me to make some photos. 
But, because of the circumstances I changed my plan. I will make portraits instead of group photos. Much easier for me.
And no, the parents don't have to pay for a photo or me, so no hard feelings if a photo isn't that sharp. 
Thanks again for your kind help!


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 16, 2015)

Jack56 said:


> Thank you all for the time you have invested. I really do appreciate this.
> I have changed my plans.
> Yes, I have got a mark5dIII and I am working at a school. People know I do like photography and that's why they asked me to make some photos.
> But, because of the circumstances I changed my plan. I will make portraits instead of group photos. Much easier for me.
> ...



I salute you my good man! This is pretty much what I do/have done since I got back into serious photography in 2009. Not as much portraits as event photography but I have yet to charge a dime for a TON of Boy Scouts + Swim Team, Choir, Church and Misc photography. I dare say that I have at least as much experience as many pros by now. I've probably shot well over 100,000 clicks and I think I *might* now be skilled enough to get a decent exposure every once in a while.  What's that they say about the more you know, the more you know you don't know? 

Keep up the good work, have fun and keep asking questions. I know I sure do. I even know what the *M* means now on that funny looking dial. It stands for _"Mystery"_. LOL! 8)


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 16, 2015)

Hey, if you are a portrait master, ignore my suggestions and go with what works for you.

Otherwise, a few things I often do to help the individual shots in a non-formal, on-the-fly type situation...

- Keep the subject a few extra feet away from that wall or ugly background that you are usually stuck with...
- If the flash is on your camera, try to get it up as high as possible with a flash bracket, diffuser, etc. This will help minimize those weird shadows that appear on the wall you want to stay away from as much as possible.
- You will have a lot more efficiency, flow and less stress if you have a good assistant/wrangler(s) to position, pose and comfort/entertain the subjects as they get in position and wait in line.
- It goes without saying, shoot a LOT of shots of each subject.

Just my two cents...

Rusty


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