# New information about the upcoming Canon EOS R5C [CR3]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 10, 2021)

> The Canon EOS R5c has been rumored for quite some time now, and I expect to see it sometime in 2022. Information about the EOS R5c has been lacking for the last little while, but things are starting to heat up.
> Canon EOS R5C Information
> 
> Canon Log 3
> ...



Continue reading...


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## Nathan Phillips (Nov 10, 2021)

Needs internal ND’s or Proress to make me want it. Have two R5 bodies that have done just fine for weddings and other jobs… even with 4K.


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## JohnDeere6930 (Nov 10, 2021)

unlimited 8K sounds fun, active cooling sounds loud


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## Jed_Houston (Nov 10, 2021)

Outside of potentially loosing some of its weather sealing, will this camera function the same on the photography side of things?


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## jam05 (Nov 10, 2021)

JohnDeere6930 said:


> unlimited 8K sounds fun, active cooling sounds loud


The majority of high end cinema cameras have active cooling.


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## Berowne (Nov 10, 2021)

Will this be a Camera with a body like the Cinema EOS C70 or more like the R3?


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## BroderLund (Nov 10, 2021)

> Timecode in/out


Yes!


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## jvillain (Nov 10, 2021)

Berowne said:


> Will this be a Camera with a body like the Cinema EOS C70 or more like the R3?


My understanding is it is a thicker version of the R5. But until they post pictures who knows.


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## RayValdez360 (Nov 10, 2021)

Jed_Houston said:


> Outside of potentially loosing some of its weather sealing, will this camera function the same on the photography side of things?


Knowing Canon, something will be missing. I can see it not having flash functionality. The FX3 is like that.


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## webphoto (Nov 10, 2021)

Hopefully it will have the same price as the R5.


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## pashevich (Nov 10, 2021)

Jed_Houston said:


> Outside of potentially loosing some of its weather sealing, will this camera function the same on the photography side of things?


Active cooling does not compromise internal weather sealing of the body. Only a fan is somewhat exposed.


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## rmblack (Nov 10, 2021)

> things are starting to heat up.


This phrase along with a cinema announcment? Put me down as nervous but hopeful


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## pashevich (Nov 10, 2021)

Nathan Phillips said:


> Needs internal ND’s or Proress to make me want it. Have two R5 bodies that have done just fine for weddings and other jobs… even with 4K.


Its impossible to squize an ND into mirrorless compact ff body. And Canon already has C70 )


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## Gazwas (Nov 10, 2021)

pashevich said:


> Its impossible to squize an ND into mirrorless compact ff body. And Canon already has C70 )


C70 is super 35 sensor though.

Just giving an R5 active cooling won't make the already excellent R5 a much better video camera.

Canon really needs to stop messing about and give us all what we really want rather than playing around pimping out stills cameras. 

A compact RF cine camera, FF sensor with ND, full size HDMI, time code and SDI outputs and it would sell by the boat load. The modularity of C300/C500's are great and their size with large lenses is a big plus but we don't all need that or shoot for TV where stuff like that matters.


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## Nathan Phillips (Nov 10, 2021)

pashevich said:


> Its impossible to squize an ND into mirrorless compact ff body. And Canon already has C70 highlights





pashevich said:


> Its impossible to squize an ND into mirrorless compact ff body. And Canon already has C70





pashevich said:


> Its impossible to squize an ND into mirrorless compact ff body. And Canon already has C70 )


And you know how?

I don’t know all the technical junk involved with this working, but isn’t the sensor regardless of size still the same distance from the lens?


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## Nathan Phillips (Nov 10, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> C70 is super 35 sensor though.
> 
> Just giving an R5 active cooling won't make the already excellent R5 a much better video camera.
> 
> ...


I mean the R5 series is a focus on Hybrid work (photo first). Why wouldn’t the R5c be that, but with more focus on video performance?

Make a compact cinema ff camera like you said, but don’t remove photo capabilities. Us Hybrid shooters need that. R5 is only hindered on video performance with heat (especially hot days) and file sizes imo. Fix that, and is hybrid shooters are golden. 

Sounds like the R1 will be the better of both worlds and might skip out on the R5c all together.


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## EOS 4 Life (Nov 10, 2021)

jam05 said:


> The majority of high end cinema cameras have active cooling.


Even low-end cinema cameras have active cooling


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## landscaper (Nov 10, 2021)

R5s High Resolution Shooters might have to wait another Seven Years for their Camera 

Perhaps it's Time to check out the
Fuji GFX System

Canon appears to be not interested in serving the High Resolution Photography Market anymore 

Or Perhaps Sony will take up the cause
With their New 102 Megapixel Full Frame Sensor 






Sony A9R Coming with 102MP Sensor? « NEW CAMERA


Is Sony to kill the Fuji GFX lineup with its super-resolution FF Mirrorless cameras? Sony recently published details of its newly developed IMX555CQR sensor. The FF sensor features 102MP resolution and based on Square pixel array architecture same as of IMX 521 CQR sensor. The Sensor is capable...




thenewcamera.com


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## dirtyvu (Nov 10, 2021)

Wow they address all the problems with the a7s3 and fx3. It has time code. It supports a top handle that doesn't use the hot shoe. Let's see if Canon offers true 24.00 which the Sony cams don't.


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## Gazwas (Nov 10, 2021)

Nathan Phillips said:


> I mean the R5 series is a focus on Hybrid work (photo first). Why wouldn’t the R5c be that, but with more focus on video performance?
> 
> Make a compact cinema ff camera like you said, but don’t remove photo capabilities. Us Hybrid shooters need that. R5 is only hindered on video performance with heat (especially hot days) and file sizes imo. Fix that, and is hybrid shooters are golden.
> 
> Sounds like the R1 will be the better of both worlds and might skip out on the R5c all together.


The trouble with photo style hybrid video cameras is how difficult they are to rig.

There is no way it will have anything more than 3.5mm microphone inputs and certainly no phantom power. Standard camera batteries just don't last very long and can only power the camera so that means adding more stuff to get it to work as a decent video camers. Adding more stuff without it being a box style camera or a much bigger camera (like C70) then makes it a much worse stills camera IMO.


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## pashevich (Nov 10, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> C70 is super 35 sensor though.
> 
> Just giving an R5 active cooling won't make the already excellent R5 a much better video camera.
> 
> ...


I mean the formfactor of a compact hybrid stills-video camera won't accomodate mecanics needed for internal VND filters. And I think ND and mechanical shutter simply can't live together inside the RF mount.

If you need internal ND, SDI, XLR, full HDMI - Canon has you covered with Cinema Line of cameras for professional work


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## pashevich (Nov 10, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> The trouble with photo style hybrid video cameras is how difficult they are to rig.
> 
> There is no way it will have anything more than 3.5mm microphone inputs and certainly no phantom power. Standard camera batteries just don't last very long and can only power the camera so that means adding more stuff to get it to work as a decent video camers. Adding more stuff without it being a box style camera or a much bigger camera (like C70) then makes it a much worse stills camera IMO.


You've forget about digital hotshoe input, that will accomodate Tescam XLR adapter without any cables.
R5C will be perfect FF B-cam for gimbal work to match Canons FF Cine line.


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## Tarepanda (Nov 10, 2021)

Sounds good to me, all I need to know is that we'll be able to record on both cards as well with 8k,so a double cf express or something
Not much more to add to such an excellent camera to be honest. Just don't push the price too high above the r5 and we're good (should be worth an extra 1k imo)


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## Nathan Phillips (Nov 10, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> The trouble with photo style hybrid video cameras is how difficult they are to rig.
> 
> There is no way it will have anything more than 3.5mm microphone inputs and certainly no phantom power. Standard camera batteries just don't last very long and can only power the camera so that means adding more stuff to get it to work as a decent video camers. Adding more stuff without it being a box style camera or a much bigger camera (like C70) then makes it a much worse stills camera IMO.


If you’re truly doing hybrid work in the moment, then rigging it wouldn’t be ideal anyways. Who’s going to want a video rig when taking photos with it? Literally shooting photos and then switching over immediately after.

At most have a quick release top handle that doesn’t block the hotshoe for a flash trigger.

You can make it a great video option by adding internal ND’s, mini xlr, time code, dual cf express, and full hdmi. I don’t think this setup would be the size of the C70. They can do it smaller, like a mixture between the R5 and C70. Be no different than a 1DX size at most.


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## pashevich (Nov 10, 2021)

Nathan Phillips said:


> If you’re truly doing hybrid work in the moment, then rigging it wouldn’t be ideal anyways. Who’s going to want a video rig when taking photos with it? Literally shooting photos and then switching over immediately after.
> 
> At most have a quick release top handle that doesn’t block the hotshoe for a flash trigger.
> 
> You can make it a great video option by adding internal ND’s, mini xlr, time code, dual cf express, and full hdmi. I don’t think this setup would be the size of the C70. They can do it smaller, like a mixture between the R5 and C70. Be no different than a 1DX size at most.


DSLR Video Shooter (aka Caleb) has shown "ultimate" rigs for hybrid stills cameras, where you can quickly pull off camera body from the entire rig and do some still shooting.


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## Bob Howland (Nov 10, 2021)

pashevich said:


> You've forget about digital hotshoe input, that will accomodate Tescam XLR adapter without any cables.
> R5C will be perfect FF B-cam for gimbal work to match Canons FF Cine line.


Why would a hybrid R5C be more perfect than, for example, a Super-35 C50 or C90 expressly designed for B-cam usage and gimbal work and actually part of the Cine line? I mean that as a serious question.


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## Gazwas (Nov 10, 2021)

Bob Howland said:


> Why would a hybrid R5C be more perfect than, for example, a Super-35 C50 or C90 expressly designed for B-cam usage and gimbal work and actually part of the Cine line? I mean that as a serious question.


It wouldn't and I think the obsession of it being a hybrid would be wrong. The R5 is already the perfect hybrid camera and is equally great on a gimbal, or shooting landscapes stills.

A C line R5C will be video focused and offer very little over the current R5 other than unlocking the 30 mins limit and better control of internal temp.


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## Finn (Nov 10, 2021)

pashevich said:


> Active cooling does not compromise internal weather sealing of the body. Only a fan is somewhat exposed.


S1H achieves this and does a pretty good job. Damn, thinking about it now I wish I could get R5C in a S1H body with that awesome flip and tilt screen combo.

the flip screen on the c70 sucks.



Gazwas said:


> C70 is super 35 sensor though.
> 
> Just giving an R5 active cooling won't make the already excellent R5 a much better video camera.
> 
> ...


You just described the C70 with a speedbooster minus RF glass.

The fact that they are holding back clog2 sounds like they are very worried this will step on the toes of the c70. But honestly it sounds like it doesn’t offer that much over the R5 if it has the same FSI 45MP sensor.

IMHO, the R5C needs to be what the FX3 is to the A7SIII. Get rid of the evf, put on a bright high resolution lcd, and a cooling solution.

Knowing Canon if they do release this FF cinema light camera then a FF C90 probably isn’t that far off. With the 6K BSI sensor from R3, internal ND, and clog2 maybe RAW.


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## DBounce (Nov 10, 2021)

pashevich said:


> Its impossible to squize an ND into mirrorless compact ff body. And Canon already has C70 )


BS: DJI managed to include NDs in the X9 camera. And that camera has a changeable mount which can be swapped out to accommodate Sony E-mount lenses with electronic controls. And it in a gimbal ffs.


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## DBounce (Nov 10, 2021)

Now that the Nikon Z9 is in the wild, Canon had better find a way to include both internal ProRes and ProRes Raw. It’s all well and good shooting 8K, but you need to be able to manage that footage in post. ProRes and ProRes Raw work very well on the new M1 macs.


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## pashevich (Nov 10, 2021)

DBounce said:


> BS: DJI managed to include NDs in the X9 camera. And that camera has a changeable mount which can be swapped out to accommodate Sony E-mount lenses with electronic controls. And it in a gimbal ffs.


X9 is hybrid stills camera? Dont think so. You forget about mechanical shutter and IBIS in R5.


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## Nathan Phillips (Nov 10, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> It wouldn't and I think the obsession of it being a hybrid would be wrong. The R5 is already the perfect hybrid camera and is equally great on a gimbal, or shooting landscapes stills.
> 
> A C line R5C will be video focused and offer very little over the current R5 other than unlocking the 30 mins limit and better control of internal temp.





DBounce said:


> BS: DJI managed to include NDs in the X9 camera. And that camera has a changeable mount which can be swapped out to accommodate Sony E-mount lenses with electronic controls. And it in a gimbal ffs.


Exactly… It’s definitely possible


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## pashevich (Nov 10, 2021)

DBounce said:


> Now that the Nikon Z9 is in the wild, Canon had better find a way to include both internal ProRes and ProRes Raw. It’s all well and good shooting 8K, but you need to be able to manage that footage in post. ProRes and ProRes Raw work very well on the new M1 macs.


Nikon has zero cinema cameras, Canon has 10 years of making C-line. And who in a clear mind would by a pro STILLS body (Z9) for a professional video work? It's just make little sence.
Nikon has nothing to offer / cannibalize in video field, so it pumped its pro sport/repotr stills camera with video features.


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## DBounce (Nov 10, 2021)

Finn said:


> S1H achieves this and does a pretty good job. Damn, thinking about it now I wish I could get R5C in a S1H body with that awesome flip and tilt screen combo.
> 
> the flip screen on the c70 sucks.
> 
> ...


That’s not what the FX3 is… Sony got rid of the excellent EVF, but burdened the FX3 with the same sad rear display that is on the A7S3. Worst still… it’s 4:3 aspect ratio, not the expected 16:9 that a video camera should have.
I hope Canon puts a 16:9 screen that articulates in a similar fashion to the one in the Panasonic S1H. Also, it *must* have NDs. Don’t tell me it can’t be done… DJI figured it out… surely Canon can also? And ProRes Raw! It’s 2021… give us a codec that can actually be worked with in post.


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## pashevich (Nov 11, 2021)

Bob Howland said:


> Why would a hybrid R5C be more perfect than, for example, a Super-35 C50 or C90 expressly designed for B-cam usage and gimbal work and actually part of the Cine line? I mean that as a serious question.


If you need a fullframe B-cam - you need fullframe, not S35. That's why


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## DBounce (Nov 11, 2021)

pashevich said:


> I mean the formfactor of a compact hybrid stills-video camera won't accomodate mecanics needed for internal VND filters. And I think ND and mechanical shutter simply can't live together inside the RF mount.
> 
> If you need internal ND, SDI, XLR, full HDMI - Canon has you covered with Cinema Line of cameras for professional work


Well, unless Canon does not plan to use the RF mount on the future C300, C500… etc… it stands to reason that they engineered it to be compatible with internal NDs. Either that or the Cinema line will no longer have internal NDs.
For this reason I’m 100% certain that the RF mount can… and will accommodate internal NDs


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## pashevich (Nov 11, 2021)

DBounce said:


> That’s not what the FX3 is… Sony got rid of the excellent EVF, but burdened the FX3 with the same sad rear display that is on the A7S3. Worst still… it’s 4:3 aspect ratio, not the expected 16:9 that a video camera should have.
> I hope Canon puts a 16:9 screen that articulates in a similar fashion to the one in the Panasonic S1H. Also, it *must* have NDs. Don’t tell me it can’t be done… DJI figured it out… surely Canon can also? And ProRes Raw! It’s 2021… give us a codec that can actually be worked with in post.


DJI put NDs in a specialy constructed "body", and it has no mechanical shutter, IBIS and tightly packed electronics like R5 has. Placing an internal ND means reconstruction of R5's internals at the bayonet side (both body shape and optical), so its just may be not financially feesable.


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## pashevich (Nov 11, 2021)

DBounce said:


> Well, unless Canon does not plan to use the RF mount on the future C300, C500… etc… it stands to reason that they engineered it to be compatible with internal NDs. Either that or the Cinema line will no longer have internal NDs.
> For this reason I’m 100% certain that the RF mount can… and will accommodate internal NDs


Everything is possible, one just has to create the whole new body, not trying to retrofit it to existing stills camera. Trust me, i'm an engeneer ^)


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## PredictaBull (Nov 11, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> Just giving an R5 active cooling won't make the already excellent R5 a much better video camera.
> 
> Canon really needs to stop messing about and give us all what we really want rather than playing around pimping out stills cameras.





Gazwas said:


> ...A C line R5C will be video focused and offer very little over the current R5 other than unlocking the 30 mins limit and better control of internal temp.



So essentially the R5C will, for many people, solve the main issue with the R5 for video usage? An R5 with no recording limit or overheating sounds like exactly what many people want.

I've used the R6 on a shoot, and after a bit of usage I was convinced to get one, until it overheated a few minutes later. Barring that, I'd have an R6 by now, and I'd assume many people feel the same about the R5.


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## peters (Nov 11, 2021)

JohnDeere6930 said:


> unlimited 8K sounds fun, active cooling sounds loud


Cant have your cake and eat it too ;-)


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## peters (Nov 11, 2021)

landscaper said:


> R5s High Resolution Shooters might have to wait another Seven Years for their Camera
> 
> Perhaps it's Time to check out the
> Fuji GFX System
> ...


Though I must say, I tried the GFX 100s and it was realy quite slow. I think its only suited for studio work.
If canon offers a 70mp something fullframe camera, I would certainly prefer this over the GFX 100s, even for shooting in a controlled setting. Though its a tempting camera with this impressive resolution.


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## peters (Nov 11, 2021)

PredictaBull said:


> So essentially the R5C will, for many people, solve the main issue with the R5 for video usage? I fail to see how an R5 with no recording limit or overheating wouldn't be exactly what many people want.


Given that I can now record 5k60p or 8k30p on the Atomos Ninja V+ in Prores RAW, I am no longer so much interested in an R5C.
The overhat in the R5 is bad, but if I realy need longer recordings, I may turn off HQ mode or just record only in my Atomos. So most problems are solved for my work.

In my opinion the R5 is a great hybrid between photo and video. (Though photo is certainly where this camera is at home. But the video quality and AF is a pleasure as well =))


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## Gazwas (Nov 11, 2021)

PredictaBull said:


> So essentially the R5C will, for many people, solve the main issue with the R5 for video usage? An R5 with no recording limit or overheating sounds like exactly what many people want.
> 
> I've used the R6 on a shoot, and after a bit of usage I was convinced to get one, until it overheated a few minutes later. Barring that, I'd have an R6 by now, and I'd assume many people feel the same about the R5.


Sticking a fan in an R5 will not make it a great cine camera, just one that could potentially shoot for as long as the tiny battery will allow or for the few minutes before it fills the Single memory card slot capable of shooting ProRes RAW.

I’ve never had the R5 overheat shooting video and as far as I know won’t overheat when shooting standard 4K which to my eyes looks amazing in CLog3 when exposed correctly. 4k cropped mode looks amazing too and often use this mode on my R5.


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## slclick (Nov 11, 2021)

webphoto said:


> Hopefully it will have the same price as the R5.


Why should a differently spec'd item have the same retail? My hunch would be more, quite a bit considering the active cooling for starters, being hardware since I would get jumped all over for mentioning any software differences since the geniuses here always say software is free, lol. I get you using the word 'hopefully'. 

i.e. Hopefully all the idiots who refuse to get vacinated will change their minds this Thurday and the pandemic will be over by the weekend.


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## mclaren777 (Nov 11, 2021)

I got excited because I thought this headline was talking about the 5DV.

Now I'm sad.


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## JohnC (Nov 11, 2021)

landscaper said:


> R5s High Resolution Shooters might have to wait another Seven Years for their Camera
> 
> Perhaps it's Time to check out the
> Fuji GFX System
> ...


I’m almost assuredly getting on the gfx wagon. Love my R5 but I’m very attracted to higher mp as well as a larger sensor.


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## slclick (Nov 11, 2021)

mclaren777 said:


> I got excited because I thought this headline was talking about the 5DV.
> 
> Now I'm sad.


Wouldn't that be something. Canon bringing out the so called dead dslr with killer specs. It would be another 'hated online, loved in capable hands' camera I'm sure (hopefully)


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## padam (Nov 11, 2021)

I think the R3 sensor is just better for video now than the R5 sensor: full sensor 60p recording, even better low light and rolling shutter performance, higher quality 4k120p, possibly slightly better dynamic range, and the bitrate of 6K RAW as opposed to 8K RAW is considerably lower. Although having micro-HDMI on a bigger body is even more stupid.

So without 8k60p I don't see this camera being differentiated enough from other models, but of course the price hasn't been disclosed yet.


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## sanj (Nov 11, 2021)

padam said:


> I think the R3 sensor is just better for video now than the R5 sensor: full sensor 60p recording, even better low light and rolling shutter performance, higher quality 4k120p, possibly slightly better dynamic range, and the bitrate of 6K RAW as opposed to 8K RAW is considerably lower. Although having micro-HDMI on a bigger body is even more stupid.
> 
> So without 8k60p I don't see this camera being differentiated enough from other models, but of course the price hasn't been disclosed yet.


Does the R3 have higher quality 4k 120p? That is nice to know. Btw where did you learn this? I would like to read that. Thanks much!


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## RayValdez360 (Nov 11, 2021)

landscaper said:


> R5s High Resolution Shooters might have to wait another Seven Years for their Camera
> 
> Perhaps it's Time to check out the
> Fuji GFX System
> ...


45MP is high MP. Wouldnt 102 mp run into noise, storage, and speed issues. You must mean Canon isnt trying to making high end niche cameras.


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## trent (Nov 11, 2021)

Jed_Houston said:


> Outside of potentially loosing some of its weather sealing, will this camera function the same on the photography side of things?


My guess is it'll be similar to the Sony FX3. Much lower megapixels but can still take photos perfect for web. You wouldn't want to use it as a main photography camera if that's the case though, especially if they don't include an EVF...

Interesting to see what they decide!


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## DJPatte (Nov 11, 2021)

Canon not including Clog 2 in all their cameras is so so freaking annoying. In a C-camera it would be beyond words.


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## -pekr- (Nov 11, 2021)

JohnDeere6930 said:


> unlimited 8K sounds fun, active cooling sounds loud



Instead of fun, you get fan


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## pashevich (Nov 11, 2021)

mclaren777 said:


> I got excited because I thought this headline was talking about the 5DV.
> 
> Now I'm sad.


The Age of new DSLRs is over, left your hopes deep in the sea )


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## pashevich (Nov 11, 2021)

trent said:


> My guess is it'll be similar to the Sony FX3. Much lower megapixels but can still take photos perfect for web. You wouldn't want to use it as a main photography camera if that's the case though, especially if they don't include an EVF...
> 
> Interesting to see what they decide!


You cannot do a 8K video without 45mp sensor.


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## Antono Refa (Nov 11, 2021)

landscaper said:


> R5s High Resolution Shooters might have to wait another Seven Years for their Camera
> 
> Perhaps it's Time to check out the Fuji GFX System
> 
> ...


I find this a little amusing.

For starters, the R5 has a 44.8MP sensor. That's a pretty high resolution.

Sure, there's a market for 100MP+ cameras, or else manufacturers like Fuji and Hassleblad wouldn't serve it. Canon can make such a sensor, e.g. the APS-H 250MP sensor. Question is whether its large enough for every manufacturer to make a profit on it, and whether Canon can profit on it now. Canon is busy filling up the RF lenses line, and the covid-19 crisis causes supply problems.

[One could argue it would take little effort to make a high res FF sensor with that technology and drop it into an R5S studio camera. Not being able to estimate how much the effort would cost, and how much profit Canon would make on such a camera, I can't say whether it makes sense or not. I do know surveillance cameras are on the rise, in contrast to ILC cameras, so I'm not surprised Canon prefers to use the technology there.]


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## Gazwas (Nov 11, 2021)

padam said:


> I think the R3 sensor is just better for video now than the R5 sensor: full sensor 60p recording, even better low light and rolling shutter performance, higher quality 4k120p, possibly slightly better dynamic range, and the bitrate of 6K RAW as opposed to 8K RAW is considerably lower. Although having micro-HDMI on a bigger body is even more stupid.
> 
> So without 8k60p I don't see this camera being differentiated enough from other models, but of course the price hasn't been disclosed yet.


I'm sure a more modern sensor is better but you're really splitting hairs here as the R5 already has a stunning video image and putting the R3 sensor in the R5C would make no sense as it then wouldn't shoot 8K.

The only way the R5C becomes remotely interesting is if they put the 8K full frame DGO sensor from the rumoured upcoming C500S, lets it shoot in CLog 2, external power port and give it a top handle connected to the muti port hot shoe that gives XLR (TA-3) and SDI.

That would be a pretty sweet camera.


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## scyrene (Nov 11, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> Canon really needs to stop messing about and give us all what we really want



If ever there was a mantra for these forums


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## LogicExtremist (Nov 11, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> Knowing Canon, something will be missing. I can see it not having flash functionality. The FX3 is like that.


The obvious marketing decision would be to cripple some of the fancier stills photography functions of the R5, so buyers either have to choose an R5 for stills or the R5c for video. It would be very un-Canon-like to give buyers all the functionality of the R5 and then some in the R5c, with the only minus being weather sealing. Either the Canon cripple hammer will strike hard, or the Canon overpricing mallet will make its mark instead and they'll charge way more than the R5c...


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## LogicExtremist (Nov 11, 2021)

The original post states "Information about the EOS R5c has been lacking for the last little while, *but things are starting to heat up*."

Maybe that last phrase wasn't the best choice of words in the context of R5 video! 

The words "elephant in the room" come to mind right now... What's most amusing is how all the fanboys, all over the internet, not too long ago, were in complete denial about the R5 video overheating issues. The very concept of the R5c is Canon's own admission of that very problem, as this is the solution. I can only hope that they enjoy eating their own words, and the cognitive dissonance of holding two conflicting opinions simultaneously doesn't cause too much psychological distress.


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## Finn (Nov 11, 2021)

DBounce said:


> That’s not what the FX3 is… Sony got rid of the excellent EVF, but burdened the FX3 with the same sad rear display that is on the A7S3. Worst still… it’s 4:3 aspect ratio, not the expected 16:9 that a video camera should have.


I'm saying Canon should do the same but actually put on a nice screen. They really messed up with the C70. It's like they designed the camera and then forgot about the screen so just threw it on the back with a flimsy hinge. They could have at least used the C100 style hinge or came up with something new. I feel like the C70 with body refinements, better build quality, and a FF sensor would sell like hotcakes for years. A compact Canon Cinema camera with DGO and great AF and internal NDs. 

Internal NDs are a stretch but I would take them, of course!


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## DBounce (Nov 11, 2021)

DJPatte said:


> Canon not including Clog 2 in all their cameras is so so freaking annoying. In a C-camera it would be beyond words.


The reason Canon left out CLog 2 is because the R5 only has 10.4 stops of dynamic range… which isn’t exactly great. The Sony A7S3 manages 12.4 usable stops.

I’m hoping that the R5C uses a newer sensor with better dynamic range.


----------



## DBounce (Nov 11, 2021)

Finn said:


> I'm saying Canon should do the same but actually put on a nice screen. They really messed up with the C70. It's like they designed the camera and then forgot about the screen so just threw it on the back with a flimsy hinge. They could have at least used the C100 style hinge or came up with something new. I feel like the C70 with body refinements, better build quality, and a FF sensor would sell like hotcakes for years. A compact Canon Cinema camera with DGO and great AF and internal NDs.
> 
> Internal NDs are a stretch but I would take them, of course!


It needs higher resolution also. At least 6K and preferably 8K.


----------



## Finn (Nov 11, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> he only way the R5C becomes remotely interesting is if they put the 8K full frame DGO sensor from the rumoured upcoming C500S, lets it shoot in CLog 2, external power port and give it a top handle connected to the muti port hot shoe that gives XLR (TA-3) and SDI.


This sounds more like a C90 camera which sounds more interesting than a R5C with the same R5 sensor and a fan. Price will be quite expensive though.


LogicExtremist said:


> The obvious marketing decision would be to cripple some of the fancier stills photography functions of the R5, so buyers either have to choose an R5 for stills or the R5c for video.


This has been the way of Canon for awhile and honestly it doesn't bother me much. They should make each tool as sharp as hell for its intended use. The R5 is an awesome mirrorless hybrid (I own on its quite impressive) and the R5C should be a companion tool sharp for video with DGO technology.


DBounce said:


> The reason Canon left out CLog 2 is because the R5 only has 10.4 stops of dynamic range… which isn’t exactly great. The Sony A7S3 manages 12.4 usable stops.
> 
> I’m hoping that the R5C uses a newer sensor with better dynamic range.


This is my inclination as well. We all ready effectively have clog2 in the R5 via the RAW and the DR is pushed to its limits with the FSI 45MP sensor. It's actually quite impressive for what it is.

Clog2 really shines when paired with a higher DR DGO sensor. The workflow is very easy and getting the correct exposure is very easy which lends well to a smaller C style camera for run and gun stuff.


----------



## DBounce (Nov 11, 2021)

LogicExtremist said:


> The obvious marketing decision would be to cripple some of the fancier stills photography functions of the R5, so buyers either have to choose an R5 for stills or the R5c for video. It would be very un-Canon-like to give buyers all the functionality of the R5 and then some in the R5c, with the only minus being weather sealing. Either the Canon cripple hammer will strike hard, or the Canon overpricing mallet will make its mark instead and they'll charge way more than the R5c...


Well Nikon Z9 lurks around the corner… and Canon is more concerned about Nikon than Sony. So given that $5500 price point, Canon will be forced to keep the price of this non-flagship comfortably below the Nikon. Hopefully they will also feel compelled to include ProRes and ProRes Raw internally. I can see that becoming the new must have feature. And they had better build this thing right… I’m not dropping $$$$ on something made of plastic… magnesium alloy.


----------



## Bob Howland (Nov 11, 2021)

DBounce said:


> It needs higher resolution also. At least 6K and preferably 8K.


And two CFExpress Type B slots


----------



## padam (Nov 11, 2021)

sanj said:


> Does the R3 have higher quality 4k 120p? That is nice to know. Btw where did you learn this? I would like to read that. Thanks much!


I could already see that from the various test footages, but Gordon Laing's tests also confirm this.






The only question mark is the dynamic range, but it certainly won't be any worse than the R5 and it might be better especially at higher ISOs.

All in all, the hardware in the R3 already looks more advanced to me than an actively cooled R5.


----------



## RunAndGun (Nov 11, 2021)

Nathan Phillips said:


> And you know how?
> 
> I don’t know all the technical junk involved with this working, but isn’t the sensor regardless of size still the same distance from the lens?


Because of the space needed. Could it be done? Absolutely. But the body would have to be bigger. And not by an insignificant amount. Unless they went with a fixed ‘variable electronic ND’ system, which would more than likely mean that you would always have at least ~ 2-stops in, because that’s about as low as they go.


----------



## perplex1 (Nov 11, 2021)

Finn said:


> I'm saying Canon should do the same but actually put on a nice screen. They really messed up with the C70. It's like they designed the camera and then forgot about the screen so just threw it on the back with a flimsy hinge. They could have at least used the C100 style hinge or came up with something new. I feel like the C70 with body refinements, better build quality, and a FF sensor would sell like hotcakes for years. A compact Canon Cinema camera with DGO and great AF and internal NDs.
> 
> Internal NDs are a stretch but I would take them, of course!


I don't think they messed up the c70 in anyway. I think it was a game changer for cinema cameras in such a small body. Also, my hinge was solid from day one. If I never read other's tales of bad hinges, I wouldn't even recognize it as an issue. 

And beyond anecdotal comments of a massive hinge problem, I would assume that I am in the majority of c70 users who have great hinges.


----------



## Stuart (Nov 11, 2021)

Does active cooling need to be an actual fan ? Maybe its a Peltier device and a heatsink to keep the body watertight? e.g. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Diymore-TE...c-Cooling/dp/B078GSC2L1/ref=asc_df_B078GSC2L1


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## danivar (Nov 11, 2021)

Some comments about ND-filters here seem to be missing some central points.

The RF-mount can fit ND-filters as proven by the C70. 
Fitting an ND-filter system requires space and hence a bigger camera body.
ND-filters are currently not compatible with *neither* a mechanical shutters *nor* IBIS. While it could be speculated that an ND-system that coexist with *either* m-shutter *or* IBIS could be invented, it's certainly not likely to appear in a camera that has *both* of these.


----------



## danivar (Nov 11, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> I expect the new sensor family will have electronic equivalent to ND, not physical filters, so no, you don't need space or a bigger body. They'd be fine with both mechanical shutters and IBIS.


Do you have any examples of such electronic ND that requires no physical space?


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## John Wilde (Nov 11, 2021)

An example of active cooling.


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## jwpatmore (Nov 11, 2021)

To wait for the R5C or to purchase the C70... The C70 gets better battery life and has internal NDs. Thoughts?


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## David Hull (Nov 11, 2021)

jam05 said:


> The majority of high end cinema cameras have active cooling.


Not a video guy but the answer would seem to be to put the audio mic somewhere else.


----------



## Gazwas (Nov 11, 2021)

jwpatmore said:


> To wait for the R5C or to purchase the C70... The C70 gets better battery life and has internal NDs. Thoughts?


I”be been so close to buying a C70 so many times over the last few months but have decided to wait until the spring and NAB 2022 before buying so I can see if anything is coming from Canon. 

Considering we don’t even know if the R5C is ever going to be a real product (much like the unicorn high resolution R5S) it’s hard to compare it to a C70.

Rumours of a C50 have all but dried up so who knows what’s coming down the pipe.


----------



## Gazwas (Nov 11, 2021)

David Hull said:


> Not a video guy but the answer would seem to be to put the audio mic somewhere else.


Can’t speak for for ENG as never worked in that field but apart from use as scratch audio the only people I see with camera mounted mic’s are YouTubers in the usual merry-go-round of buy my recommended gear so I get sent more free stuff type video’s.


----------



## Nathan Phillips (Nov 11, 2021)

RunAndGun said:


> Because of the space needed. Could it be done? Absolutely. But the body would have to be bigger. And not by an insignificant amount. Unless they went with a fixed ‘variable electronic ND’ system, which would more than likely mean that you would always have at least ~ 2-stops in, because that’s about as low as they go.


You have seen the new Ronin 4D, right?


----------



## Finn (Nov 11, 2021)

perplex1 said:


> I don't think they messed up the c70 in anyway. I think it was a game changer for cinema cameras in such a small body. Also, my hinge was solid from day one. If I never read other's tales of bad hinges, I wouldn't even recognize it as an issue.
> 
> And beyond anecdotal comments of a massive hinge problem, I would assume that I am in the majority of c70 users who have great hinges.


It was mentioned in multiple reviews and has been a problem. Griffin Conway had to send his c70 back as did a few people I know where the hinge becomes a floppy mess. Terrible for a 5K+ camera.


----------



## privatebydesign (Nov 11, 2021)

DBounce said:


> The reason Canon left out CLog 2 is because the R5 only has 10.4 stops of dynamic range… which isn’t exactly great. The Sony A7S3 manages 12.4 usable stops.
> 
> I’m hoping that the R5C uses a newer sensor with better dynamic range.


Not according to well respected and independent testing of real world cameras.

They measure the R5 at 11.85 stops and the A7S III at 11.22 stops.



Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting


----------



## Finn (Nov 11, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Not according to well respected and independent testing of real world cameras.
> 
> They measure the R5 at 11.85 stops and the A7S III at 11.22 stops.
> 
> ...


Hint: The title of the graph says "Photographic" dynamic range. DR in video most always takes a hit because the sensors are reading out at different bit depths. In the case of the R5: photo mode with mechanical shutter is 14-bit and video readout modes are 12-bit. Hence the 12-bit RAW output.


----------



## Doug7131 (Nov 11, 2021)

Finn said:


> Hint: The title of the graph says "Photographic" dynamic range. DR in video most always takes a hit because the sensors are reading out at different bit depths. In the case of the R5: photo mode with mechanical shutter is 14-bit and video readout modes are 12-bit. Hence the 12-bit RAW output.


Dynamic range does not change with bit depth. The sensor always has the same dynamic range. All changing the bit depth does is change how many descrete levels exist between the brightest and darkest pixel levels.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 11, 2021)

Finn said:


> Hint: The title of the graph says "Photographic" dynamic range.


Bill Claff calls it ‘photographic DR’ to reflect the intent of real-world applicability, not to suggest that it applies to only photos and not video. He wants to distinguish his values from ‘engineering DR’, where the denominator is SNR = 1 (IIRC, he uses SNR = 20 as the baseline for photographic DR).


----------



## sanj (Nov 12, 2021)

padam said:


> I could already see that from the various test footages, but Gordon Laing's tests also confirm this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you!


----------



## sanj (Nov 12, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> I expect the new sensor family will have electronic equivalent to ND, not physical filters, so no, you don't need space or a bigger body. They'd be fine with both mechanical shutters and IBIS.


What is an 'electronic equivalent' to ND, sir?


----------



## deleteme (Nov 12, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> C70 is super 35 sensor though.
> 
> Just giving an R5 active cooling won't make the already excellent R5 a much better video camera.
> 
> ...


Any video camera in the still camera form factor is, by definition, a pimped out stills camera.

If you want a serious video tool then pay up for the form factor that the top video cameras use. 
There is a reason that Alexa and Red don't look like a Sony A7.


----------



## perplex1 (Nov 12, 2021)

Finn said:


> It was mentioned in multiple reviews and has been a problem. Griffin Conway had to send his c70 back as did a few people I know where the hinge becomes a floppy mess. Terrible for a 5K+ camera.


again, thats all anecdotal. I am in the c70 groups where these things are discussed at great length. And the majority of people when the topic surfaces, chime in with "mine is great", "or nothing is wrong with mine" so on and so forth. You only hear about the bad experiences because they tend to be more vocal about the issue. 

Now I will admit, there must be some faulty batches that flew under the radar for canon and landed in the hands of some unfortunate consumers; however, in lieu of a massive recall, I would bet all instances of faulty hinges reflect a very small minority of overall sales. And to completely discredit a camera based off your perception of the issue would be foolhardy.


----------



## Inspired (Nov 12, 2021)

Think it still will have all the photography features of the R5?


----------



## sanj (Nov 12, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Bill Claff calls it ‘photographic DR’ to reflect the intent of real-world applicability, not to suggest that it applies to only photos and not video. He wants to distinguish his values from ‘engineering DR’, where the denominator is SNR = 1 (IIRC, he uses SNR = 20 as the baseline for photographic DR).


So, the best dynamic range, in RAW video on the R5 is at ISO 100? Thx.


----------



## dirtyvu (Nov 12, 2021)

DBounce said:


> The reason Canon left out CLog 2 is because the R5 only has 10.4 stops of dynamic range… which isn’t exactly great. The Sony A7S3 manages 12.4 usable stops.
> 
> I’m hoping that the R5C uses a newer sensor with better dynamic range.


where are you getting this 10.4 stops?


----------



## danivar (Nov 12, 2021)

Nathan Phillips said:


> You have seen the new Ronin 4D, right?


Yes, it uses this filter mechanism which takes up more space than what's available in an R5 body.


----------



## koenkooi (Nov 12, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Bill Claff calls it ‘photographic DR’ to reflect the intent of real-world applicability, not to suggest that it applies to only photos and not video. He wants to distinguish his values from ‘engineering DR’, where the denominator is SNR = 1 (IIRC, he uses SNR = 20 as the baseline for photographic DR).


When video people talk about DR they talk about something different. This Cined article shows the measurements they base it on. The crux is that even if the Canon sensor can do 12 stops of DR, the video file it stores on the card only gets the 10.4 stops mentioned earlier. Sony is able to squeeze out some more DR due to their log profile, the R5 firmware update that added more CLOG profiles might have improved the video DR a bit.
This is also how the C300 III gets 16 stops of DR into a 10-bit video file.

(This is all based on watching not one, but *three* youtube videos on the subject, that means I'm an expert now, right? RIGHT?)


----------



## sanj (Nov 12, 2021)

koenkooi said:


> When video people talk about DR they talk about something different. This Cined article shows the measurements they base it on. The crux is that even if the Canon sensor can do 12 stops of DR, the video file it stores on the card only gets the 10.4 stops mentioned earlier. Sony is able to squeeze out some more DR due to their log profile, the R5 firmware update that added more CLOG profiles might have improved the video DR a bit.
> This is also how the C300 III gets 16 stops of DR into a 10-bit video file.
> 
> (This is all based on watching not one, but *three* youtube videos on the subject, that means I'm an expert now, right? RIGHT?)


So, Log 3 is better in the case of R5? Decision made?


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 12, 2021)

koenkooi said:


> When video people talk about DR they talk about something different. This Cined article shows the measurements they base it on. The crux is that even if the Canon sensor can do 12 stops of DR, the video file it stores on the card only gets the 10.4 stops mentioned earlier. Sony is able to squeeze out some more DR due to their log profile, the R5 firmware update that added more CLOG profiles might have improved the video DR a bit.
> This is also how the C300 III gets 16 stops of DR into a 10-bit video file.
> 
> (This is all based on watching not one, but *three* youtube videos on the subject, that means I'm an expert now, right? RIGHT?)


Thanks for the clarification. No argument that video DR is different (and I don’t have a horse in the race since I don’t shoot video on my ILCs), just pointing out that Claff didn’t call it ‘photographic’ to distinguish it from ‘video’.


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## Chaz320 (Nov 12, 2021)

Berowne said:


> Will this be a Camera with a body like the Cinema EOS C70 or more like the R3?


I hope not


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## DBounce (Nov 12, 2021)

dirtyvu said:


> where are you getting this 10.4 stops?


CineD does dynamic range test for a lot of popular cameras. Here is the R5 test for ProRes Raw, that should allow the most dynamic range possible from the camera.


----------



## Gazwas (Nov 12, 2021)

Normalnorm said:


> Any video camera in the still camera form factor is, by definition, a pimped out stills camera.
> 
> If you want a serious video tool then pay up for the form factor that the top video cameras use.
> There is a reason that Alexa and Red don't look like a Sony A7.


Which is what I said…… 

Putting a fan in an R5 doesn’t make it a brilliant video camera.

However, disagree about we all need Red or Arri cameras and the expense involved with them. A C70 or better still a model between C70 and C300 would be a brilliant canera for 95% of everyone outsite Hollywood and big budget advertising.


----------



## Chaz320 (Nov 12, 2021)

I just hope we can get a different form factor. I know I know that the form factor doesn’t matter but damn the c70 is a horrible looking camera.


----------



## koenkooi (Nov 12, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Thanks for the clarification. No argument that video DR is different (and I don’t have a horse in the race since I don’t shoot video on my ILCs), just pointing out that Claff didn’t call it ‘photographic’ to distinguish it from ‘video’.


We should come up with some form of 'equivalence' between all the DRs to make it less confusing! </sarcasm>


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## Nathan Phillips (Nov 12, 2021)

danivar said:


> Yes, it uses this filter mechanism which takes up more space than what's available in an R5 body.
> 
> View attachment 201175


If they can put it in the C70, then they can make it work on all RF mount bodies. The distance from the lens to the sensor doesn’t change.


----------



## RunAndGun (Nov 12, 2021)

Nathan Phillips said:


> You have seen the new Ronin 4D, right?


And it was designed from the outset with an internal system. The R5 was not. Where is the extra space that they are going to need to slide the filters to and from? They would have to make the body bigger to accommodate the system.


----------



## Gazwas (Nov 12, 2021)

RunAndGun said:


> They would have to make the body bigger to accommodate the system.


Let’s hope they do and let it use cinema batteries and add an extra 3/8 thread on the base.


----------



## danivar (Nov 12, 2021)

Nathan Phillips said:


> If they can put it in the C70, then they can make it work on all RF mount bodies. The distance from the lens to the sensor doesn’t change.


1. The R5 body is smaller than the C70.
2. The R5 has a mechanical shutter and IBIS - both of which are incompatible with the C70's ND-filter system.


----------



## danivar (Nov 12, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> Canon's sensor patent of two years ago that achieves this effect didn't seem to need more physical space. I've detailed it already twice in the last couple days, check my recent posts for more info


That's very interesting. I read your previous post explaining the details of the patent.

It seems promising and I look forward to seeing it in practice. However I doubt it will make its debut in the upcoming R5C as I would expect it to use the same sensor as the current R5. I would be very excited to be proven wrong in this regard though.


----------



## Nathan Phillips (Nov 12, 2021)

RunAndGun said:


> And it was designed from the outset with an internal system. The R5 was not. Where is the extra space that they are going to need to slide the filters to and from? They would have to make the body bigger to accommodate the system.


Wouldn’t be the exact system. The point is that they fit a lot in a little space. Same as the C70


----------



## Finn (Nov 12, 2021)

Doug7131 said:


> Dynamic range does not change with bit depth. The sensor always has the same dynamic range. All changing the bit depth does is change how many descrete levels exist between the brightest and darkest pixel levels.


Your last sentence is almost the exact definition of dynamic range.
The bit depth of the A/D on the sensor greatly impacts the dynamic range of said sensor.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 12, 2021)

Finn said:


> Your last sentence is almost the exact definition of dynamic range.
> The bit depth of the A/D on the sensor greatly impacts the dynamic range of said sensor.


The definition of dynamic range is the ratio of the brightest to the dimmest intensities that can be captured (the latter being slightly above the noise floor). Bit depth affects the quantization of that range.

The commonly used analogy is a staircase. Dynamic range is the height of the staircase, bit depth is the number of steps. If you Increase the number of steps from 12 to 14, each step is smaller but the distance between the floors doesn’t change.


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## Doug7131 (Nov 12, 2021)

Finn said:


> Your last sentence is almost the exact definition of dynamic range.
> The bit depth of the A/D on the sensor greatly impacts the dynamic range of said sensor.


As neuroanatomist said bit depth is how many steps you have between the brightest and darkest pixels. You could get the full dynamic range of any sensor using just 1 bit. Another analogy would be a ruler. The length of the ruler is the dynamic range and the bit depth is the markings on the ruler. Increasing bit depth is like adding mm increments to the ruler instead of cm. It makes the ruler more precise but it do not change the length of the ruler.
Increasing bit depth just allows the camera to more precisely match the analog voltage from the sensor to a digital value.


----------



## Jordan23 (Nov 12, 2021)

Chaz320 said:


> I hope not


They should just put it in a R3 body with full HDMI 2.1-port and be done with it. At the same time Canon should reduce the bitrate for 4K120P, Z9 use only 400mbps while R5/R3 use 1800 mbps.


----------



## Finn (Nov 12, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> The definition of dynamic range is the ratio of the brightest to the dimmest intensities that can be captured (the latter being slightly above the noise floor). Bit depth affects the quantization of that range.
> 
> The commonly used analogy is a staircase. Dynamic range is the height of the staircase, bit depth is the number of steps. If you Increase the number of steps from 12 to 14, each step is smaller but the distance between the floors doesn’t change.


Calculations for DR in A/D circuits (measured in dBs) directly factor in bit depth.


----------



## dirtyvu (Nov 13, 2021)

DBounce said:


> CineD does dynamic range test for a lot of popular cameras. Here is the R5 test for ProRes Raw, that should allow the most dynamic range possible from the camera.


I won't go into the testing methodology. According to their tests if you go with internal recording it has 10.8


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 13, 2021)

Finn said:


> Calculations for DR in A/D circuits (measured in dBs) directly factor in bit depth.


That doesn’t change the definition of dynamic range, and the ‘calculation of DR’ that you mention is just the quantization step. The dynamic range is determined by the analog wells – the height of the staircase. The ADC then splits that into bits – the steps. The bit depth determines the number of those steps, regardless of the units used (stops, bits or dB), just like in the analogy by @Doug7131 you can divide your ruler into millimeters, centimeters or inches, but the length doesn’t change.

What that means in practice is that the ADC assigns the ‘brightest’ signal to the highest digital value, the ‘dimmest’ signal to the lowest digital value, and distributes the intervening signers across the digital spread.

If a scene comprises 18 EV between the detail in the sunlit clouds and the troll sitting inside the mouth of his dark cave, and sensor captures 12 stops of dynamic range, 6 EV will be lost on the end(s). If you then run those 12 analog stops through a 20-bit ADC, do you get those 6 lost stops back with an extra two bonus stops? No.


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## LogicExtremist (Nov 13, 2021)

Looks like people are having a hard time getting their head around the concept of dynamic range!

There's a good explanation here - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/tips-and-solutions/dynamic-range-explained

The simple way to explain bit depth vs dynamic range would be as follows.

Imagine we have a tonal gradient from absolute black to absolute white, with shades of grey in between.







The smoothness of the steps between absolute black to absolute white, in other words, the amounts of shades of grey, would be determined by the *bit depth*. If we represent the image with 8 bits, we have 2^8 = 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 256 shades of grey. With 16 bits, we have 65,536 shades of grey, which gives us a smoother transition with less obvious steps or banding.

A camera sensor wont be able to capture the whole tonal range from absolute black to absolute white, it will only be able to capture so far into the dark greys before it interprets them as black, and only so far into the light greys before it interprets them as white. The range of actual exposure that it can capture before losing the details in the whites or blacks is the* dynamic range* of the sensor, measured in exposure values (EV), which is an absolute value or measurement of the brightest to darkest value.

If we look once again at our gradient, the limited dynamic range of a sensor only captures really dark grey to really light grey, so it's only capturing a grey to grey gradient, as shown below, and not the whole absolute black to absolute white gradient,.






When the sensor digitally encodes what it sees, it interprets either end of the grey gradient as black or white respectively, because it cant discern between really dark grey and absolute black, and really pale grey and white. Essentially the ends are cut off because every tone past a certain point just becomes lost in pure black or pure white.

This truncated or reduced tonal range that the sensor captures can be recorded in coarser or smoother steps, from the darkest to the lightest tones by the bit depth we use. More bit depth just gives less banding, and a smoother transition between the limited tones that were captured by the sensor.

If a scene has 18 EV of light between the darkest and brightest parts, and we use a 12 EV camera, we lose 6 EV of light, 3EV in the shadows and 3EV highlight if we expose in the middle.

We can expose for maximum details in the shadows by over-exposing. We're still capturing 12 EV of light, but this exposure will capture all the dark end, and we'll lose 6EV of the bright highlights instead, so highlight details will be blown out.

Alternately, we can expose for maximum details in the highlights by under-exposing. Once again, we're still capturing 12 EV of light, but this exposure will capture all the bright end, and we'll lose 6EV of the dark shadows instead, so shadow details will be crushed.

With HDR (high dynamic range) photos, we can take all three of these photos, and select the best parts of each, combining them to extend the dynamic range to show details in the shadows and highlight. That what smartphones do, as part of their computational photography, to get skies and shadows correctly exposed in the same scene. That strategy only works with static objects though, because images don't neatly overlay when they move! Another strategy is to use image compositing in photoshop, taking the sky from one photo, forground from another, and pasting it to the middle image on a landscape photo for example.

From this example it should be clear that the bit depth is a variable value, it's essentially the digital resolution that we record our data at, and it determines how smooth the transitions are between tones. It's not the same as thing as the dynamic range of a scene, which can be represented by absolute values of light measured in exposure values (EV), where each step in EV is a doubling of light, which is an analogue phenomenon. A camera sensor's dynamic range represents only a portion of the scene's actual dynamic range when there are very bright and very dark elements in a scene. Increasing bit depth will create smoother transitions through the tones captured within the dynamic range of the camera. Using a sensor with more dynamic range is the only way to get more dynamic range from a camera.

Wow, hope that explanation was worth it!


----------



## sanj (Nov 13, 2021)

LogicExtremist said:


> Looks like people are having a hard time getting their head around the concept of dynamic range!
> 
> There's a good explanation here - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/tips-and-solutions/dynamic-range-explained
> 
> ...


THANK YOU SIR!


----------



## Gazwas (Nov 13, 2021)

So after reading all the above comments, linked reviews and the excellent DR explanation above, do we think if Canon simply keeps the same sensor from the R5 but lets 8K run for longer it would be a total waist of time as it has none of the qualities we look for in a cinema camera like super flat log profiles, low shadow noise and smooth highlight roll off?


----------



## danivar (Nov 13, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> So after reading all the above comments, linked reviews and the excellent DR explanation above, do we think if Canon simply keeps the same sensor from the R5 but lets 8K run for longer it would be a total waist of time as it has none of the qualities we look for in a cinema camera like super flat log profiles, low shadow noise and smooth highlight roll off?


I think that's the most likely scenario by a margin unfortunately. Canon will most likely put their premium video sensors in their true cinema cameras first, not debut such a sensor in a stills body.

That said, while R5 sensor doesn't have the best DR on the market it still produces excellent quality video.


----------



## jvillain (Nov 13, 2021)

danivar said:


> Do you have any examples of such electronic ND that requires no physical space?





sanj said:


> What is an 'electronic equivalent' to ND, sir?


I believe the FX6 fits the bill. I don't think we are to far away from continuous digital ND being standard on any self respecting "cinema" camera just as auto focus is starting to spread. Will we be able to call the R5C a real cinema camera? Until they release it I reserve judgement. The addition of proper time code is an indication that they may want to make it that.



LogicExtremist said:


> Looks like people are having a hard time getting their head around the concept of dynamic range!
> ...
> Wow, hope that explanation was worth it!


Nice write up. Thanks for putting in the effort. The images don't do what yu are hoping though becuase every one is looking at them on 8 or 10 bit monitors so they both look the same. The display side still lags the capture side as far as DR an steps are concerned.

I am sure you know but for those that don't when you pull those images into a NLE they usually get imported into an even larger color and gamma space then you can pull down the highlights and lift the shadows in order to get all that dynamic range to fit into what will work on a diplay and then render that into a smaller color space and gammut file format that your dispay can handle like rec709 or if the diplay can handle it rec2020.


----------



## danivar (Nov 13, 2021)

jvillain said:


> I believe the FX6 fits the bill. I don't think we are to far away from continuous digital ND being standard on any self respecting "cinema" camera just as auto focus is starting to spread. Will we be able to call the R5C a real cinema camera? Until they release it I reserve judgement. The addition of proper time code is an indication that they may want to make it that.



The FX6 has a physical ND filter that folds down in front of the sensor. It's electronically variable in strengths, but minimum 2 stops.

And like other ND-systems, the one in the FX6 is also incompatible with having IBIS and/or a mechanical curtain shutter.

To be able to fit ND filters in the rumoured R5C something along the lines of what SwissFrank describes in a previous post would have to be invented.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 13, 2021)

jvillain said:


> Thanks for putting in the effort. The images don't do what yu are hoping though becuase every one is looking at them on 8 or 10 bit monitors so they both look the same.


Either my iPhone has a display of >10 bits, or you’re not looking closely enough. (It’s the latter, of course.)

Look more carefully, and you’ll see that the second image has less black on the left and less white on the right, presumably because @LogicExtremist trimmed the ends of the first image to simulate the sensor DR being less than the scene DR. Flipping back-and-forth between the images using the site’s image viewer makes it even more obvious.


----------



## DBounce (Nov 13, 2021)

RunAndGun said:


> And it was designed from the outset with an internal system. The R5 was not. Where is the extra space that they are going to need to slide the filters to and from? They would have to make the body bigger to accommodate the system.


So you believe Canon was not farsighted enough to see the benefits of including an ND system on a mirrorless body? I think you underestimate Canon.


----------



## perplex1 (Nov 13, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> I”be been so close to buying a C70 so many times over the last few months but have decided to wait until the spring and NAB 2022 before buying so I can see if anything is coming from Canon.
> 
> Considering we don’t even know if the R5C is ever going to be a real product (much like the unicorn high resolution R5S) it’s hard to compare it to a C70.
> 
> Rumours of a C50 have all but dried up so who knows what’s coming down the pipe.


sorry to tell you this, but even if they release the another camera in your spec/price range at nab2022, there will be yet another amazing camera on the horizon right around the bend. It never stops. you just gotta jump on the train when you need it


----------



## RunAndGun (Nov 14, 2021)

DBounce said:


> So you believe Canon was not farsighted enough to see the benefits of including an ND system on a mirrorless body? I think you underestimate Canon.


And I think you are trying to put words in my mouth, or at the very least you are misinterpreting what I said. I think you would have to be naive to think that Canon has never thought about internal ND in a mirrorless body. 

Anyway…. The R5 in its current form and design cannot accommodate an internal ND system. It would have to be made larger and possibly remove at least the mechanical shutter and maybe ibis, too.


----------



## LogicExtremist (Nov 14, 2021)

RunAndGun said:


> And I think you are trying to put words in my mouth, or at the very least you are misinterpreting what I said. I think you would have to be naive to think that Canon has never thought about internal ND in a mirrorless body.
> 
> Anyway…. The R5 in its current form and design cannot accommodate an internal ND system. It would have to be made larger and possibly remove at least the mechanical shutter and maybe ibis, too.


Would the R5C include IBIS at all? The Canon C70 only uses digital image stabilization. The Sony A7S3 has IBIS. I wonder how video-centric Canon intends to make it?


----------



## noipego (Nov 14, 2021)

Clog2 prores and 4' screen plz


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## Gazwas (Nov 14, 2021)

perplex1 said:


> sorry to tell you this, but even if they release the another camera in your spec/price range at nab2022, there will be yet another amazing camera on the horizon right around the bend. It never stops. you just gotta jump on the train when you need it


While I appreciate your advise and usually follow your thought process, I don’t find it applicable at a time when Canon is going through the biggest change in their Cinema line since its conception in 2011.

With Canon’s sole offering of only one RF mount cinema camera and other manufacturers adopting it too, it doesn’t take a psychic to predict the inevitably of all future cameras will be in RF.

If you can wait, why not? You’d be almost foolish not to…..


----------



## DBounce (Nov 14, 2021)

RunAndGun said:


> The R5 in its current form and design cannot accommodate an internal ND system. It would have to be made larger and possibly remove at least the mechanical shutter and maybe ibis, too.


This will not be “the R5 in its current form”… that’s the whole point. With active cooling we might see faster processing… with faster processing we might see faster readout speeds… and with faster readout speeds perhaps the mechanical shutter can be removed.
My point is there’s a lot that Canon could do to distance this Camera from the R5. Honestly, I hope it has a sensor with more dynamic range. The R5 is noticeably below the A7S3 and Panasonic offerings. I have no idea what the Nikon Z9’s dynamic range is… but I’m inclined to think it’s closer to the S1H… Which is pretty good.
What I don’t want is a Canon Sony FX3… which was basically just a re-bodied A7S3… minus the excellent EVF.


----------



## DBounce (Nov 14, 2021)

noipego said:


> Clog2 prores and 4' screen plz


Not with a R5 sensor… the poor dynamic range makes CLog 2 superfluous.


----------



## jvillain (Nov 14, 2021)

LogicExtremist said:


> Would the R5C include IBIS at all? The Canon C70 only uses digital image stabilization.


That is actually a good question. in the R5 if you use a stabalized lens you ether have t have both IBIS and lens IS together or nothing. That can produce some horrible image warping artifacts. One would hope that the R5C would at least allow you to chose this or that, but maybe they will drop IBIS. Until they leak it we won't know.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 14, 2021)

jvillain said:


> in the R5 if you use a stabalized lens you ether have t have both IBIS and lens IS together or nothing. That can produce some horrible image warping artifacts.


Can you provide some examples of the ‘horrible image warping’ with the combined IS?


----------



## HurtinMinorKey (Nov 15, 2021)

So maybe VR lens being for the R5C makes sense. The video stats for the the R5 basic are just plain inadequate for good VR. If the camera exists, it sure as heck better do 6K at 60fps internally (like the R3) at the minimum, otherwise it's silly (adding 8K 30fprs raw internal as opposed to raw via DCI is useless, because 30fps is unusable for VR anyway). I'll preorder day one if it can do >=60fps at >=6K, otherwise I guess I'm looking elsewhere.


----------



## sanj (Nov 15, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Can you provide some examples of the ‘horrible image warping’ with the combined IS?


Do not expect a reply to your question.


----------



## LogicExtremist (Nov 15, 2021)

jvillain said:


> That is actually a good question. in the R5 if you use a stabalized lens you ether have t have both IBIS and lens IS together or nothing. That can produce some horrible image warping artifacts. One would hope that the R5C would at least allow you to chose this or that, but maybe they will drop IBIS. Until they leak it we won't know.


By warping artifacts, do you mean the jello effect seen in the corners of video when using wide angle lenses on camera bodies with IBIS working?


----------



## Th0msky (Nov 15, 2021)

Back when the original R5 and R6 were anounced, I was very excited for the R6. It did not meet my expectations because it just overheated too much for fulltime video work capabilities.

Bought a Panasonic S5 instead. Happy with it every since, however would like to have a Canon Cinema camera.

Now that I see this, I might be interested again. However, how come I haven't heard from the rumoured C50 anymore? I'd like to be interested in that.


----------



## landon (Nov 15, 2021)

Th0msky said:


> Back when the original R5 and R6 were anounced, I was very excited for the R6. It did not meet my expectations because it just overheated too much for fulltime video work capabilities.
> 
> Bought a Panasonic S5 instead. Happy with it every since, however would like to have a Canon Cinema camera.
> 
> Now that I see this, I might be interested again. However, how come I haven't heard from the rumoured C50 anymore? I'd like to be interested in that.


C50 is boxy type. Could be cancelled or delayed. Who knows.


----------



## Gazwas (Nov 15, 2021)

Th0msky said:


> Now that I see this, I might be interested again. However, how come I haven't heard from the rumoured C50 anymore? I'd like to be interested in that.


The Panasonic DC-BS1H probably sent that one back to the drawing board, price and spec wise.


----------



## sanj (Nov 15, 2021)

Jed_Houston said:


> Outside of potentially loosing some of its weather sealing, will this camera function the same on the photography side of things?


I hope so!


----------



## jvillain (Nov 15, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Can you provide some examples of the ‘horrible image warping’ with the combined IS?










LogicExtremist said:


> By warping artifacts, do you mean the jello effect seen in the corners of video when using wide angle lenses on camera bodies with IBIS working?



Yes



sanj said:


> Do not expect a reply to your question.



Don't you look like an idiot.


----------



## Joel C (Nov 15, 2021)

I can honestly say that I have been waiting for this camera to come out. It has been a much longer wait than I anticipated, likely to do with things out of our control. Hopefully this hits market fairly soon and we get and Idea on the budgeting for these, along with actual numbers avail to buy.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 15, 2021)

jvillain said:


>


Thanks. First, it seems like something that could hopefully be addressed with a firmware update. Second, it seems like something I don’t care about because I don’t shoot video on my ILCs (but definitely a problem for people who do).



jvillain said:


> Don't you look like an idiot.


…said the guy who stated that @LogicExtremist posted a pair of indistinguishable images because he failed to look at them closely enough to tell them apart.


----------



## Gazwas (Nov 15, 2021)

Calm down guys, it’s only a camera…


----------



## David - Sydney (Nov 15, 2021)

Maybe the R5c will have a HDMI2.1 port. This should allow 4k120 to external recorder which I don't believe is possible today.
Preferably full sized although removing the mic/headphone ports doesn't seem like it would give the current micro HDMI port more space. I am sure that Canon would have included a full sized HDMI in the R5 if there was space.
A bundled Tascam mic setup and/or Ninja V+ would be interesting as well.


----------



## Gazwas (Nov 15, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Maybe the R5c will have a HDMI2.1 port. This should allow 4k120 to external recorder which I don't believe is possible today.
> Preferably full sized although removing the mic/headphone ports doesn't seem like it would give the current micro HDMI port more space. I am sure that Canon would have included a full sized HDMI in the R5 if there was space.
> A bundled Tascam mic setup and/or Ninja V+ would be interesting as well.


Only issue with that is Atomos, in their infinite wisdom only equipped the Ninja V+ (despite its cost) with an HDMI 2.0 port which Is why it only records 10bit RAW as apposed to the 12bit of internal and will never go higher than 60fps recording due to data restriction.


----------



## David - Sydney (Nov 16, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> Only issue with that is Atomos, in their infinite wisdom only equipped the Ninja V+ (despite its cost) with an HDMI 2.0 port which Is why it only records 10bit RAW as apposed to the 12bit of internal and will never go higher than 60fps recording due to data restriction.


On further investigating, it looks like there are lots of issues and bugs with manufacturers when it comes to HDMI 2.1
The AV receiver market is the key one as a switching intermediary between sources eg consoles and outputs to displays. The chipsets are probably tied up with the video card GPUs for gamers and Sony/Microsoft consoles plus monitor/TVs. Getting everything to work nicely is a challenge - not to mention supporting cables.
This would explain why the R5 doesn't have a HDMI 2.1 port as that was probably 2 years ago when the engineers were configuring the R5. The R5c might have one if Canon can get good chipsets.
If interesting, there is good detail at:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/hd...ues-with-video-and-graphics-features.2363377/


----------



## sanj (Nov 16, 2021)

jvillain said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you look like an idiot.


Complete!


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Nov 16, 2021)

dirtyvu said:


> Wow they address all the problems with the a7s3 and fx3. It has time code. It supports a top handle that doesn't use the hot shoe. Let's see if Canon offers true 24.00 which the Sony cams don't.


Unlike the a7S III, the R5 already has 24.00 FS video.
There is no reason for Canon to remove that for a videocentric cinema camera version


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Nov 16, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> Only issue with that is Atomos, in their infinite wisdom only equipped the Ninja V+ (despite its cost) with an HDMI 2.0 port which Is why it only records 10bit RAW as apposed to the 12bit of internal and will never go higher than 60fps recording due to data restriction.


Yeah, It is kind of a 1 trick pony.
The price is down to $1K USD until January 2022 which seems more reasonable.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Nov 16, 2021)

Bob Howland said:


> Why would a hybrid R5C be more perfect than, for example, a Super-35 C50 or C90 expressly designed for B-cam usage and gimbal work and actually part of the Cine line? I mean that as a serious question.


IBIS and superior AF tracking.
(Why Canon does not add eye detect AF to the cinema line is beyond my understanding)


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Nov 16, 2021)

Finn said:


> S1H achieves this and does a pretty good job. Damn, thinking about it now I wish I could get R5C in a S1H body with that awesome flip and tilt screen combo.


A lot of photographers hate the S1H body


----------



## Gazwas (Nov 16, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Yeah, It is kind of a 1 trick pony.
> The price is down to $1K USD until January 2022 which seems more reasonable.


Didn't know that and shows how well it must be selling.

How the hell can a manufacturer just slice off a third of the price (£510 in UK)? I wouldn't be very pleased if I was an early adopter.......


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Nov 16, 2021)

DBounce said:


> Now that the Nikon Z9 is in the wild, Canon had better find a way to include both internal ProRes and ProRes Raw. It’s all well and good shooting 8K, but you need to be able to manage that footage in post. ProRes and ProRes Raw work very well on the new M1 macs.


ProRes RAW will probably never happen.
I prefer Canon RAW anyway.
More NLEs support it.
I doubt ProRes will happen anytime soon either.
It is not even in most of the cinema line.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Nov 16, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> Didn't know that and shows how well it must be selling.


Not really.
Atomos pretty much always has big discounts this time of year.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Nov 16, 2021)

DBounce said:


> Well, unless Canon does not plan to use the RF mount on the future C300, C500… etc… it stands to reason that they engineered it to be compatible with internal NDs. Either that or the Cinema line will no longer have internal NDs.
> For this reason I’m 100% certain that the RF mount can… and will accommodate internal NDs


The C70 already has internal NDs and an RF mount.
So do the RED Komodo and V-Raptor


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Nov 16, 2021)

pashevich said:


> Everything is possible, one just has to create the whole new body, not trying to retrofit it to existing stills camera. Trust me, i'm an engeneer ^)


No one trusts an engineer.
That unfortunately includes the product design team


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Nov 16, 2021)

pashevich said:


> You cannot do a 8K video without 45mp sensor.


They could if Canon were to go the GH5S route and crop in for photos from a 16:9 sensor.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Nov 16, 2021)

RunAndGun said:


> Because of the space needed. Could it be done? Absolutely. But the body would have to be bigger. And not by an insignificant amount. Unless they went with a fixed ‘variable electronic ND’ system, which would more than likely mean that you would always have at least ~ 2-stops in, because that’s about as low as they go.


Compare the BMPCC 6K and 6K Pro.
(I know the tilt screen also contributes to the size difference.)


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Nov 16, 2021)

perplex1 said:


> my hinge was solid from day one


I heard that there was a problem with the original units that has been addressed in subsequent units.
Canon never issued a recall but they have fixed original hinge units outside of the warranty.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Nov 16, 2021)

Stuart said:


> Does active cooling need to be an actual fan ? Maybe its a Peltier device and a heatsink to keep the body watertight? e.g. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Diymore-TE...c-Cooling/dp/B078GSC2L1/ref=asc_df_B078GSC2L1


A Peltier device does have a fan.
A lot of cinema cameras use Peltier coolers including the C70, FX3, and Komodo.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Nov 16, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Not according to well respected and independent testing of real world cameras.
> 
> They measure the R5 at 11.85 stops and the A7S III at 11.22 stops.
> 
> ...


12 stops would not be enough to benefit from CLOG2


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Nov 16, 2021)

jvillain said:


> I believe the FX6 fits the bill.


The FX6 may be small for a cinema camera but it is huge compared to the FX3


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Nov 16, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> Calm down guys, it’s only a camera…


Are you new here?


----------



## Gazwas (Nov 16, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Are you new here?


New enough to not understand the question.


----------



## jvillain (Nov 16, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Thanks. First, it seems like something that could hopefully be addressed with a firmware update. Second, it seems like something I don’t care about because I don’t shoot video on my ILCs (but definitely a problem for people who do).



I don't give a hoot what you do with your camera. This is a thread about the R5*C* so I suspect some one is going to try to shoot video with it. Could it be fixed with a firmware update? I suspect yes. Has it been? The new firmware is out and the answer is no. 




neuroanatomist said:


> …said the guy who stated that @LogicExtremist posted a pair of indistinguishable images because he failed to look at them closely enough to tell them apart.



You clearly don't understand what those images were supposed to demonstrate. Dithering isn't it..


----------



## DBounce (Nov 16, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> The C70 already has internal NDs and an RF mount.
> So do the RED Komodo and V-Raptor


While the C70 does indeed have internal NDs, the same cannot be said of the Red Komodo 6K and V-Raptor.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 16, 2021)

jvillain said:


> You clearly don't understand what those images were supposed to demonstrate. Dithering isn't it..


I understand very well, thanks. Can't say the same for you, though. But that wasn't really my point. To review, here are the images:




Now, here's what you said about the images:


jvillain said:


> The images don't do what yu are hoping though becuase every one is looking at them on 8 or 10 bit monitors *so they both look the same*.



Please show us your clear understanding of how those two images look the same. Because to anyone with a functional brain behind their eyes, those two images are different.


----------



## Finn (Nov 17, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> A lot of photographers hate the S1H body


Who cares?

It has a nice screen implementation for video. I wish R5C would have something like this. Best of both worlds of a tilt and a flip forward when you needed that.


----------



## Finn (Nov 17, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> A lot of cinema cameras use Peltier coolers including the C70, FX3, and Komodo.


Oh yeah?... You don't know what you are talking about. Peltier cooling (thermoelectric) is insanely inefficient and causes condensation when humid air is present.


----------



## LogicExtremist (Nov 17, 2021)

jvillain said:


> I don't give a hoot what you do with your camera. This is a thread about the R5*C* so I suspect some one is going to try to shoot video with it. Could it be fixed with a firmware update? I suspect yes. Has it been? The new firmware is out and the answer is no.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe I have to explain the obvious, the link I provided from where I sourced the images explains it in even more detail, but as a summary, absolute black and absolute white are absent on the second image, please take a closer look. The black missing from the darker shades might be a bit harder to discern but the highlight end missing white is very clear. Not sure what you're using to view the images. Neuro is correct here. Hope this helps!


----------



## thegenuineparticle (Nov 18, 2021)

Whatever this ends up being priced at is guaranteed to make the Cinema EOS C70 look like the steal of the century... The R5 is amazing but it's no cinema camera, and just shooting 8k doesn't make it a cinema camera either. The #1 thing that gives "cinema cameras" their look is the dynamic range and the C70 has it and the R5 doesn't. Unless the R5c has a new sensor with 16+ stops like the C70 in which case it _will _be worth it. So you'll have the "cinema body" in super 35 with the C70, and probably for the same price, a FF R5c with 8k and 16+ stops of DR. If you're hard core about video it would be worth it to you to have an R5c then. But, if the R5c is simply an R5 with a fan... no thanks.


----------



## Gazwas (Nov 18, 2021)

thegenuineparticle said:


> Unless the R5c has a new sensor with 16+ stops like the C70 in which case it _will _be worth it.


Stranger things have happened. We never thought the R5 would be as amazing and feature laden before the announcement.

There is a new FF DGO, 8K sensor with 17 stops of DR rumoured for the C500S so who knows what Canon will do.


----------



## LogicExtremist (Nov 18, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> Stranger things have happened. We never thought the R5 would be as amazing and feature laden before the announcement.
> 
> There is a new FF DGO, 8K sensor with 17 stops of DR rumoured for the C500S so who knows what Canon will do.


If Canon does with the R5C what they did with the R5, then they will probably deliver a hybrid camera that does awesome video, better than any other Canon hybrid, but with a catch. It will also feature some badly thought out, half-assed, gimmicky stills photography feature that doesn't work properly, and that will strangely become the main marketing point in an over-hyped, misguided advertising campaign which ignores what the camera does really well! 

Let's hope Canon's "new ideas" team and marketing team, that bought us the stupid multi-function bar on the EOS R, and the almost useless overheating 8K video on the R5, don't balls it up this time round!


----------



## David - Sydney (Nov 18, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> No one trusts an engineer.
> That unfortunately includes the product design team


Well, the product marketing team didn't do a great job with the R5 announcements for high bit rate video. Maybe the engineers could have done more (besides leading the market with the first 8k hybrid) and subsequently improved it even more with firmware updates. Still the only hybrid that can record 8k raw in 12 bit if you need it. The Z9 will have 8k60 next year though but only 10 bit at release. 
The main engineering issue is that the Digic X is less efficient compared to Sony's processors. The CIPA results and heating in general coupled with practically the same battery capacity shows a marked difference. Maybe Digic XI will use a smaller lithography process to improve this issue.


----------



## jam05 (Nov 20, 2021)

Finn said:


> Oh yeah?... You don't know what you are talking about. Peltier cooling (thermoelectric) is insanely inefficient and causes condensation when humid air is present.


Yes, the poorly designed ones


----------



## jam05 (Nov 20, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Well, the product marketing team didn't do a great job with the R5 announcements for high bit rate video. Maybe the engineers could have done more (besides leading the market with the first 8k hybrid) and subsequently improved it even more with firmware updates. Still the only hybrid that can record 8k raw in 12 bit if you need it. The Z9 will have 8k60 next year though but only 10 bit at release.
> The main engineering issue is that the Digic X is less efficient compared to Sony's processors. The CIPA results and heating in general coupled with practically the same battery capacity shows a marked difference. Maybe Digic XI will use a smaller lithography process to improve this issue.
> View attachment 201245


----------



## jam05 (Nov 20, 2021)

Compared to which Sony processors? When one generalizes it often the case that no supporting data realy exist and that one is merely speculating. Post your side by side sensor data of the processors you state efficiencies for. CIPA is not an international engineering standard.


----------



## koenkooi (Nov 20, 2021)

jam05 said:


> Compared to which Sony processors? When one generalizes it often the case that no supporting data realy exist and that one is merely speculating. Post your side by side sensor data of the processors you state efficiencies for. CIPA is not an international engineering standard.


I think the idea comes from observing the Sony A1 doing 8k without showing an overheating warning and the R5 doing 8k, but with an overheat warning. Same thing for oversampled 4k.

I'm not saying that's a *valid* way of determining efficiency


----------



## Finn (Nov 21, 2021)

Gazwas said:


> Stranger things have happened. We never thought the R5 would be as amazing and feature laden before the announcement.
> 
> There is a new FF DGO, 8K sensor with 17 stops of DR rumoured for the C500S so who knows what Canon will do.


The description of the R5C sounds very much like a C70 with a R5 45MP FF sensor in it. Which, in my opinion, is not very much of an upgrade of anything. Worse than the C70 in image, bigger than an R5 with no benefits except record times.

I would much rather take a this new FF DGO sensor in the rumored C500S gimped to 13-14 stops of dynamic range or something.

All we need is a FF DGO sensor in a small cinema body (c70 or smaller). If the form factor of the C70 was tweaked a bit and the screen improved that would be awesome.


----------



## David - Sydney (Nov 21, 2021)

jam05 said:


> Compared to which Sony processors? When one generalizes it often the case that no supporting data realy exist and that one is merely speculating. Post your side by side sensor data of the processors you state efficiencies for. CIPA is not an international engineering standard.


We are all speculating but making some considered guesses based on assumptions.
CIPA has been going for ~70 years and virtually all camera manufacturers are regular or supporting members. They have a variety of standards that they collaborate on. It is the only measure that the manufacturers publish their specs against.

Happy for you to tell me what engineering standard is relevant for photographers if you don't like CIPA. At the end of the day, togs just want to know how long a battery will last for their shooting style.

From a very rough perspective, Sony's FZ100 battery is approximately the same capacity (+7%) as the E6NH but the difference in CIPA ratings and the thermal limitations across a number of bodies would indicate that Sony's processors are more efficient than Canon. Clearly CIPA is an average but ~30% between R5/A1 (EVF) in not insignificant. Different shooting methodologies mean that CIPA is indicative but still a measure. There are lots of other factors eg EVF refresh rates, what temperature Sony/Canon will allow internal semiconductors to work up to, etc.

From a logical perspective, the Canon's choice of 45mp for the R5 means that no oversampling is needed using the Digic X. The A1's dual Bionz XR needs to oversample from 8.6k and process via codec to 4:2:0 XAVC HS vs virtually no processing for Canon raw. The use of the CFe Type B card seems to also generate a lot more heat whereas the A1 can record to the SD card as the bit rate isn't as high. The A1 is smaller than the R5 but the use of dual processors could either mean better heat distribution.

My assumption is that Sony's engineering history for video processing for their PS consoles would be portable technology. The camera processors could also have access to narrower lithography processes based on Sony's overall semiconductor volume. I haven't seen any teardown of the A1 yet. Will be interesting to see what is on the inside


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## danivar (Nov 21, 2021)

Finn said:


> The description of the R5C sounds very much like a C70 with a R5 45MP FF sensor in it. Which, in my opinion, is not very much of an upgrade of anything. Worse than the C70 in image, bigger than an R5 with no benefits except record times.
> 
> I would much rather take a this new FF DGO sensor in the rumored C500S gimped to 13-14 stops of dynamic range or something.
> 
> All we need is a FF DGO sensor in a small cinema body (c70 or smaller). If the form factor of the C70 was tweaked a bit and the screen improved that would be awesome.


I really agree that a FF DGO sensor in the R5C is what we all want and need, but unfortunately I just don't think that's realistic to expect.

The R5C is still going to be a hybrid camera and I don't believe Canon makes any of their cinema sensors optimized for stills.

I also think cameras with cinema sensors will cost a lot more. A camera with a FF DGO sensor would most likely be priced above 10.000 USD, even if it's gimped in DR, while I expect the R5C to be priced slightly above the R5.

We will surely get a FF DGO sensor in a C70-style body in time, but it will more likely be in the form of a C90 than in the rumored R5C.

I also agree that the upgrades from the R5 seems quite incremental, but they are very relevant in addressing the R5's shortcomings and making the R5C actually usable as a professional hybrid tool. And while the DR isn't good enough to replace a true cinema camera, being a hybrid gives you other advantages and that comes with some compromises.


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## Finn (Nov 22, 2021)

danivar said:


> I really agree that a FF DGO sensor in the R5C is what we all want and need, but unfortunately I just don't think that's realistic to expect.
> 
> The R5C is still going to be a hybrid camera and I don't believe Canon makes any of their cinema sensors optimized for stills.
> 
> ...


I'm sure you are correct in your prediction. Perhaps the R5C will signal a new form factor going forward for a small Canon C cameras, which is a good thing. I really hope we see a FF DGO sensor in a less than $6K body.


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## cayenne (Nov 24, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Yeah, It is kind of a 1 trick pony.
> The price is down to $1K USD until January 2022 which seems more reasonable.


Is there any real compelling reason to get the Atomos V+ vs the V at this point?


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## stevelee (Nov 24, 2021)

peters said:


> Though I must say, I tried the GFX 100s and it was realy quite slow. I think its only suited for studio work.
> If canon offers a 70mp something fullframe camera, I would certainly prefer this over the GFX 100s, even for shooting in a controlled setting. Though its a tempting camera with this impressive resolution.


The shooting I would do with the 100s would be very slow and deliberate, so the camera would be faster than I would be. I would get it for landscapes, mostly with a tripod and playing around with settings, focus, etc. It would not take over for my DSLR. It is still tempting, though I realize I am unlikely to do that sort of shooting very often.


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## stevelee (Nov 24, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I understand very well, thanks. Can't say the same for you, though. But that wasn't really my point. To review, here are the images:
> 
> View attachment 201232
> 
> ...


You make your point using a logarithmic simulation. I doubt that the point changes much with a linear approximation of Raw. But would the fact that three stops on the dark end occupy a tiny fraction of the whole, and three stops on the light end would be most (?) of the picture alter the practical effect?


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## mediazone (Nov 25, 2021)

The "Cinema" shooter in me wants a cheaper C70 with *unlimited 6/8k, *internal* NDs, *and* professional in/outs*.

The "YouTube" shooter in me wants a better EOS R with *4k60,* *No Crop* and *IBIS *and* USB-C Webcam*.


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## peters (Nov 25, 2021)

mediazone said:


> The "Cinema" shooter in me wants a cheaper C70 with *unlimited 6/8k, *internal* NDs, *and* professional in/outs*.
> 
> The "YouTube" shooter in me wants a better EOS R with *4k60,* *No Crop* and *IBIS *and* USB-C Webcam*.


Maybe get the R5 with the atomos NInja V+?
Offers very good internal recording options, 4k60 and 4k120 without a crop. Quite good recording time internaly and unlimited 5k60 raw and 8k30 raw in the atomos.
If you use EF lenses you can get the internal Vario ND with the canon adapter, which works great in my experience.
In-Outs are not great though - micro HDMI sucks, no doubt. Though it can be worked around with a cage and the atomos, which offers another audio input and another full size hdmi out. The cam itself and the atomos can be easily powered with a battery dummy to a v-mount (with correct converter, otherwise it destroys the camera!) or to an outlet, in case you need unimited recording.
IBIS and USB-C Webcam is also included =)


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