# Microsoft and Canon Sign Patent Cross-Licensing Agreement



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 2, 2014)

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<p>REDMOND, Wash., and TOKYO — July 2, 2014 — Microsoft Corp. and Canon Inc. on Wednesday broadened their strategic alliance with the announcement of a broad patent cross-licensing agreement. With this agreement, Microsoft and Canon gain licenses to each other’s highly valued and growing patent portfolios.</p>
<p>“This collaborative approach with Canon allows us to deliver inventive technologies that benefit consumers around the world,” said Nick Psyhogeos, general manager, associate general counsel, IP Licensing of the Innovation and Intellectual Property Group at Microsoft. “Microsoft believes cooperative licensing is an effective way to accelerate innovation while reducing patent disputes.”</p>
<p>This agreement covers a broad range of products and services each company offers, including certain digital imaging and mobile consumer products. Microsoft and Canon have a long history of collaborating to bring high-quality, cutting-edge products to consumers, including color technology. Contents of the agreement will not be disclosed.</p>
<p>“This agreement is a natural extension of our longstanding relationship with Microsoft and commitment to developing innovative technologies,” said Hideki Sanatake, senior general manager, Corporate Intellectual Property & Legal Headquarters of Canon Inc.</p>
<p><strong><a href="http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/press/2014/jul14/07-02canonpr.aspx" target="_blank">Read the full Press Release</a></strong></p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## zim (Jul 2, 2014)

well this won't polarise opinion ;D


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 2, 2014)

This can be a benefit to consumers, its possible, for example, that we will see the ability to view raw images for Canon products in Windows.


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## OmarSV11 (Jul 2, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> This can be a benefit to consumers, its possible, for example, that we will see the ability to view raw images for Canon products in Windows.



I can see my Canon RAW in Windows, in the icon file and in the preview panel.

Maybe you need this: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=26829


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## HurtinMinorKey (Jul 2, 2014)

Canon Windows Phone here we come!


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## LookingThroughMyLens81 (Jul 2, 2014)

Maybe this means we'll get JPEG XR from RAW through Canon's software.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 3, 2014)

OmarSV11 said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > This can be a benefit to consumers, its possible, for example, that we will see the ability to view raw images for Canon products in Windows.
> ...



Its not native in Windows, you must install the Microsoft or other codec, and it does not automatically update. I'd like native support that updated automatically when new codecs were available.


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## jrista (Jul 3, 2014)

I'm a big fan of Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8. Not that I think this would lead directly to a Canon WP camera, but I think it is an interesting possibility for smaller cameras...compacts, mirrorless with touch. 

I think that's the less valuable outcome, however. I think the biggest thing is better support for Canon hardware on the Windows platform (across the device range), maybe even some deeper integration between the two. I'd welcome that. It may also mean the integration of Canon devices into Microsoft tablets and phones, XBox, maybe future Microsoft devices? Dunno...interesting stuff. 

It's certainly been nice having Apple-patented features in Windows phone (like the rubber band scrolling) and not have to worry that Apple is going to go ape-shit and sue Microsoft into the next millennium over such a trivial thing (Apple's aggressive litigation against Android makers over ludicrous things like rounded-corner icons REALLY soured me against them. I was never a big fan, but now I rather dislike the company. I've had plenty of apple devices over the years, they have been ok, nothing ever worth their fanatical following IMO...but I don't like it when an innovative company turns aggressive and predatory.)


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## David Hull (Jul 3, 2014)

Microsoft Lawyer: Hey Canon, we (Microsoft) have 500,673 active patents. We're pretty sure you are in violation of several of them. Why don't you consider taking out a licensing agreement with us. In return you get access to all our patents and we'll never bother you again.

Canon Lawyer: What if we don't?

MSFT Lawyer: We begin Litigation proceedings on Monday.

Canon Lawyer: Well, OK, where do we send the check.


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## RLPhoto (Jul 3, 2014)

It seems that windows phone will suffer from win 8 syndrome concaved with less dynamic range issues from canon.


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## Don Haines (Jul 3, 2014)

This is going to appear as part of the new user interface on the 7D2.

It will greatly simplify taking pictures.

Turn on 7D2
wait 8 minutes for it to finish booting up
log in with user id
wait another minute
select camera app, click on "yes, I am sure that I wish to allow this program to make changes to camera"
wait for camera app to load
click on "use previous camera settings"
click on focus
click on shutter
click on "yes, I wish to store picture"
select directory
enter file name or click on default
click on "Yes, I wish to store (filename) in (directory)
enter administrator authorization password

and that's all!


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## iraikov (Jul 3, 2014)

You forgot the part about installing 500MB updates to the Genuine Microsoft Shutter App (tm) after logging in...



Don Haines said:


> This is going to appear as part of the new user interface on the 7D2.
> 
> It will greatly simplify taking pictures.
> 
> ...


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## Don Haines (Jul 3, 2014)

<ERROR>
Camera 2.13.4321 is incompatible with Windows Media Player 12.962. Please upgrade your copy of Microsoft Office to the latest version.


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## elkatro (Jul 3, 2014)

I would like to see EOS Remote app in windows smartphones, iOS and Android have it.


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## Valvebounce (Jul 3, 2014)

Hi Don. 
This and your previous post gave me a good laugh! Thank you. 

Cheers Graham.



Don Haines said:


> <ERROR>
> Camera 2.13.4321 is incompatible with Windows Media Player 12.962. Please upgrade your copy of Microsoft Office to the latest version.


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## LDS (Jul 3, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Its not native in Windows, you must install the Microsoft or other codec, and it does not automatically update. I'd like native support that updated automatically when new codecs were available.


"Native" and "preinstalled" are two different things. Those codecs are not pre-installed, but they are fully native codecs for the Windows Imaging Component (WIC) which is the image management framework in Windows. I do not know wny they are not offered as optional components in Windows Update, or automatically updated, it may also depends on your Windows Update settings and if you have Windows Live installed or not.


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## c.d.embrey (Jul 3, 2014)

I've been a Windoz hater for over 20 years. The reason I did not buy a Nokia Lumia 930 was, you guessed it, Windoz Phone 8. BTW I use a 2006 LG flip-phone, so please don't call me an Apple fanboy 

If a Canon camera comes along that I'd normally buy. But it uses MicroSoft code, I'll have to pass. Back in the day, when I did HTML coding (by hand), I learned to h8t MS, and their non-standard (and buggy) Windoz Explorer. Been there, done that and I ain't going back  YMMV.


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## preppyak (Jul 3, 2014)

As awful as a lot of Microsoft software is, this is pretty much a win-win. Canon doesnt have to use any of Microsoft's patents if they don't want (and vice versa), but, this means they dont have to engineer their own solutions that one of the largest tech companies in the world has already solved.

Means less money needed on R&D for those issues and more money dedicated towards things Microsoft cant solve (lenses, sensors, etc).

If Canon and Microsoft had merged as companies, it'd be awful for software/UI reasons...but patent sharing is very different


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## Ruined (Jul 3, 2014)

Windows Phone 8.1 is awesome, not awful. It manages to be efficient, safe, yet diverse and powerful. Basically the best of iOS and Android combined. iOS = efficient and secure but no diversity with only one brand and two models; Android = lots of diversity but inefficient and insecure.

If you haven't given it a chance you should, and I look forward to phones with Canon tech in them.


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## c.d.embrey (Jul 3, 2014)

preppyak said:


> ... this means they dont have to engineer their own solutions that one of the largest tech companies in the world has already solved.



Solved ??? seems to me *FUBARed* is more likely  

Here's a fun read on Military Slang http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FUBAR#FUBAR


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## LDS (Jul 3, 2014)

c.d.embrey said:


> I've been a Windoz hater for over 20 years. The reason I did not buy a Nokia Lumia 930 was, you guessed it, Windoz Phone 8. BTW I use a 2006 LG flip-phone, so please don't call me an Apple fanboy
> 
> If a Canon camera comes along that I'd normally buy. But it uses MicroSoft code, I'll have to pass. Back in the day, when I did HTML coding (by hand), I learned to h8t MS, and their non-standard (and buggy) Windoz Explorer. Been there, done that and I ain't going back  YMMV.



Never understood why non Windows keyboard input is usually so full of childish mistakes...


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## LDS (Jul 3, 2014)

preppyak said:


> As awful as a lot of Microsoft software is, this is pretty much a win-win. Canon doesnt have to use any



Patent and software are two different things. You can have a very valuable patent and a dreadful implementation, or even no implementation at all. But with a patent agreement you can do your own implementation, which can be better than the original, without any risk of litigation. That means money flows to the R&D departments and not to lawyers, the latter usually improve their life but not products.


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## jrista (Jul 4, 2014)

c.d.embrey said:


> I've been a Windoz hater for over 20 years. The reason I did not buy a Nokia Lumia 930 was, you guessed it, Windoz Phone 8. BTW I use a 2006 LG flip-phone, so please don't call me an Apple fanboy
> 
> If a Canon camera comes along that I'd normally buy. But it uses MicroSoft code, I'll have to pass. Back in the day, when I did HTML coding (by hand), I learned to h8t MS, and their non-standard (and buggy) Windoz Explorer. Been there, done that and I ain't going back  YMMV.



Your living in a past 20 years old, now. Microsoft and Windows have changed CONSIDERABLY from their 90's and early 2000's phase. The products Microsoft sells today are vastly superior to what they used to be, and deserving of a little more respect than 20-year old unfounded hate.

I've been using Microsoft products since the early 90's, and I've been writing software for the Microsoft platforms for about the same amount of time. (I also develop software for other platforms, in the 90's I did Java, C/C++ on Linux. Today I'm heavily JavaScript/HTML5/CSS3 based...web platform and JS stack, and I love it...so it isn't like I'm a Microsoft-only die-hard here...I've gotten around.) I've also been using linux/unix since that period, and I've had more than enough encounters with Macs and iOS. There is no perfect platform, there is no one platform that stands out leagues above the rest. They all have their pros and cons, they all have their bugs, and they all have their shining points. Having used enough Apple products over the years, they are the farthest thing from flawless. I remember generations of iPhones that excelled at everything but being a phone. I remember experiencing malware issues on multiple versions of MacOS. I remember many hardware issues that required a visit to the Apple store (and I know for a fact I'm not the only one...that's one of the PRIMARY uses of Apple stores, for their Apple Care.) I've experienced more than enough linux over the years. While it is no doubt an incredibly powerful and flexible OS, that's pretty much all it is...power and flexibility. That kind of power and flexibility gets in the way of productivity at times, and certainly puts it out of reach of the general populace unless it's HEAVILY glossed over with a very iOS or Windows like UI (i.e. Android...and anyone who's used Android phones knows how buggy and shoddily built they are...their only saving grace is their customizability and open app platform.)

I'm the first to admit Microsoft had a couple phases where their products were RIDDLED with bugs and security flaws. I remember the early NT days, and I utterly LOATHED them. I enjoyed Windows 95 and 98, hated ME. I loved XP, and personally never had any issues with Vista. Windows 7 is the worlds most popular consumer-grade operating system for good reason. Today, Microsoft is one of the most secure OS and enterprise software developers on the planet, their first-party products are just as refined as the competitions, and third-party product compatibility is better on Windows than any other platform.

Might want to poke your head up and smell the winds of change every once in a while.


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## Grumbaki (Jul 4, 2014)

jrista said:


> Your living in a past 20 years old, now. Microsoft and Windows have changed CONSIDERABLY from their 90's and early 2000's phase.



Was vista 20 years ago?  Not starting an argument, just poking the bear ;D



LDS said:


> preppyak said:
> 
> 
> > As awful as a lot of Microsoft software is, this is pretty much a win-win. Canon doesnt have to use any
> ...



As a lawyer I take offence but this is the truest post since the begining of the thread.


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## jrista (Jul 4, 2014)

Grumbaki said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Your living in a past 20 years old, now. Microsoft and Windows have changed CONSIDERABLY from their 90's and early 2000's phase.
> ...



Vista itself wasn't bad. It ran quite fine. The debacle with Vista was that Microsoft and vendors weren't on the ball BEFORE it's release to ensure that the OS had an adequate driver base, for both existing and new hardware. The initial rash of hate blogs on Windows Vista were all related to the driver issues. From there, the MS haters just piled on, and did everything they could to rip the OS to pieces. (If you make a concerted effort to find something wrong with...anything...you'll find something wrong...and then something else, and then something else...we aren't perfect, nor are our creations...I could go on for days about the things that went wrong with all my apple devices, including my Apple CinemaDisplay that keeps flipping out on me). It seems to be human nature to hate change, and to pile on hate when it's flying fast and furious...and thus, the Vista death spiral. If it hadn't been for the driver issues, the hate ball wouldn't have ever started rolling, and Vista would have been a fine, respected OS.

Windows 8 is also hated, but that's just hater's hating. Windows 8 has so far been an extremely stable, fast, and highly compatible update to Windows 7. It still has the same old desktop (I use the desktop every single day, it's no different than in Windows 7, except it's all flat now instead of slightly 3D and glassy...I prefer flat and simple.) Windows 8 boots in seconds, it has a significantly smaller memory footprint, it is more energy efficient, and it is compatible with EVERYTHING (I've run Windows 8 on all my computers here, which include several laptops, a couple high powered desktops, a media center PC, and some older bits and pieces of hardware I've had floating around for the better part of a decade and a half.)

And yet, people still hate it. I think a lot of that is change...people don't like change if they didn't ask for it, and replacing the start "menu" with a start "screen" just seemed to piss a lot of people off. There is nothing wrong with Windows 8 itself, just like there was nothing wrong with Windows Vista. Yet, the haters piled on. All it took was someone, somewhere, to B&M about something, and a whole horde of decades-old Microsoft/Windows haters were just waiting in the wings to get the hate ball rolling again. The driver debacle with Vista was a real thing, an honest problem, but it was resolved pretty quickly, and once it was resolved, there really weren't any true issues with the OS. The Windows 8 start screen isn't a problem. For one, if you wanted the start menu back, free or very very cheap utilities would restore it...so it really wasn't a problem. There were also free and very very cheap utilities to boot right to the desktop in the original Windows 8, so again, not really a problem. But still the hate. Not just hate, but vehement hate. Nasty, mean, angry hate. 

People just like to hate on Microsoft, even when they've done good. Windows 8 is the only truly universal platform that runs multiple devices, in multiple operating modes, simultaneously. Not even Apple has topped that, and I don't think they will. I purchased an original Surface Pro, because I'd been waiting for years to be able to have a fully touch-capable device for when I'm out roaming around, while not actually having to leave my full Windows desktop capabilities at home. I was probably one of the first people using Lightroom, Photoshop and EOS Utility on a Windows 8 tablet, tethered to my Canon 7D, out in the mountains, taking landscape photos and processing them with a pressure sensitive pen on the spot with a fully featured photo editing software (not some limited or otherwise gimped "app" as is the case on iPad.)

I think Microsoft has moved well past the age where they were deserving of a hateful bad rap. It's been the better part of two decades since their monopolistic/anti-trust issues. It's been over seven years since Vista, Windows 7 is one of the most reliable and heavily used operating systems on the planet, (as was Win XP before), etc. etc. If your still holding a grudge for things Microsoft made you mad about in the 90's...I'd say the issue lies somewhere other than Microsoft or it's products...holding grudges like that ain't good for the health.


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## Arctic Photo (Jul 4, 2014)

Does this mean we will have to reboot the camera efter every picture we take?


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## LDS (Jul 4, 2014)

Arctic Photo said:


> Does this mean we will have to reboot the camera efter every picture we take?



AFAIK CRTL-ALT-DEL was never patented - it was left free for anybody to use, even outsisde Windows 

Anyway re-read the agreement - Canon didn't license MS software - say WP8 to install on some Canon cameras. Canon licensed MS patents and MS licensed Canon patents. It's a move that avoid costly litigations (like the one Apple, Samsung, Google and Oracle are fighting) and let product interoperate better. For example Canon in its DPP software can take advantage of any format, algorithm or UI element patented by MS, and MS may will be able to use some of the Canon patents in its Lumia phones, for example, with no need to attempt reverse engineering of protocols (i.e for camerta tethering) or the like - look at how for example refusing to license EF specifications from Canon forces some lens brands to risk incompatibilities through reverse engineering or renouncing to AF support wholly.


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## danski0224 (Jul 4, 2014)

jrista said:


> People just like to hate on Microsoft, even when they've done good. Windows 8 is the only truly universal platform that runs multiple devices, in multiple operating modes, simultaneously. Not even Apple has topped that, and I don't think they will. I purchased an original Surface Pro, because I'd been waiting for years to be able to have a fully touch-capable device for when I'm out roaming around, while not actually having to leave my full Windows desktop capabilities at home. I was probably one of the first people using Lightroom, Photoshop and EOS Utility on a Windows 8 tablet, tethered to my Canon 7D, out in the mountains, taking landscape photos and processing them with a pressure sensitive pen on the spot with a fully featured photo editing software (not some limited or otherwise gimped "app" as is the case on iPad.)



I also think a lot of people miss the magnitude of this.

W8 is essentially the same interface across a phone, tablet/laptop and desktop PC.

You don't have a bunch of stuff that no longer works with OS upgrades like the fruity side. Proprietary connectors that get changed every other generation so the accessories no longer work...

If the top Nokia Lumia phone was available on T-Mobile instead of AT&T, I would have got one. Big mistake on Nokia's part. 

I think MS dropped the ball with the "RT" version of the Surface.

I would also immensley prefer the iPad 4:3 screen on a Surface. 

I'll grant that the W8 interface is different from XP and 7. I like W8 on a touchscreen but my desktop isn't touch, so I'm a little leery of setting it up. My computer has an included upgrade to W8.1 if I decide to try it.

I have had only 2 issue with my older hardware not working in W8, and as far as I can tell, it stems from the manufacturer no longer supporting the product- so not the fault of MS. Everything else I have works. Even downloading Epson 3800 drivers to a Surface Pro2. 

Any insights on using W8 in a non-touch environment?


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## Mika (Jul 4, 2014)

Well apparently, Microsoft wants to have some Canon tech in their imaging stuff now. Unfortunately, I guess nobody told them that it's not exactly the same thing to transfer from system camera level imaging to mobile imaging. It does make me wonder whether when Nokia imploded the people who really knew the details of Pureview technology jumped ship... As far as I know, Nokia lost a ton of talent at the moment when Windows strategy was announced.

Anyways, Microsoft hate is not because Windows 8 didn't work, or had underlying issues. The hate is because Microsoft doesn't listen to customers or just does business moves that people see are going to cost them more in the long run. And that they are trying to push their monopolistic software attitude to other business areas where they have no foothold. Or backstabbing their hardware buddies with releasing Surface to begin with.

Vista with Office updates that forced non-customizable Ribbon was bad enough, and on top of that, the companies had to pay to get people on courses how to use 20 year old tools again.

Now, add another Office change (2010), the UI didn't remain constant, although I think it was a general improvement to 2007. Add on Windows 8 screwing the operating system UI again with Microsoft marketing trying to push it as a "vast improvement" where real world experience was completely different. Especially when beta testers WARNED the company about this. 

It doesn't help that Windows 8.1 removes a part of the forced stupidity (though I wouldn't cross my fingers), the version name is already tainted. It has to be Windows 9 and an attitude change to recover from this. The point is, if the most downloaded third-party application is Classic Shell, the UI was ****ed to begin with. Note that this holds for the business side experience when using desktops with large screens. 

Unfortunately, Microsoft also started to push for cloud integration in Office, and at this part of the world, there's not a lot of businesses who would like to upload critical information to servers based in the US given the current legislation that can confiscate the data at any point. I'm pretty sure Microsoft's plan is to start forcing cloud services down on our throats gradually to charge the usage basis for monthly services, and that I don't want. 

I also definitely don't like the Microsoft store integration of the computer UI, and from what it seems, neither did the entertainment industry. Ask how bad it had to be if Valve switched on to developing their own operating system!

This is, of course, from my point of view. If you ask me, Windows 8 could've worked had the preferred UI been a simple question in the beginning. Ribbon would work better if it was customizable. Microsoft's name would look better if it wasn't seen nowadays as a potential competitor with their customers and so on.


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## Ruined (Jul 4, 2014)

Windows 8 is a fantastic and necessary evolution of Windows. It is unpopular the same reason Windows Vista was unpopular - it is a deviation from the norm that requires a new approach to developing programs and users learning a new interface.

Windows 8 is the biggest transition Windows has ever made since DOS > Windows. But, it is a needed transition. Windows 7 is terrible on touch screens most of the UI elements are simply too small for fingers. Ironically, many trumpeting the juggernaut called Windows 7 forget that is essentially a spit-shined retool of Vista which was formerly the least popular iteration of Windows. Also recall that in the DOS to Windows transition, Windows version 3.1 was the first version that truly got support of the masses. Windows XP was eons more popular than the Windows 2000 it was based on. The bottom line is, MS' initial groundbreaking OS revisions have never been popular as people need to time to adapt before they like it, and Microsoft needs time to perfect the changes based on user feedback; Windows 9 will get similar support Windows 7 did, as it is the follow-up revisions that always get the most user support. 

Developing a unified OS is necessary at this point for Microsoft to combat iOS and Android, as people clearly want that level of common integration with their computing devices. Windows 8 was not perfect but given the radical departure necessary to compete with touchscreens, they did a fine job. Now it is just a matter of gradually retooling it until it meets the needs of everyone best. While Desktop users are important, tablets and phones are the growth market and thus it makes sense that MS' prioritized tablets and phones. Now with that part nearing completion, doing more for desktop is an option. The 'ribbon' UI you mention is great for mice, but again too small for fingers.

Regarding Valve/Steam, it has nothing to do with the quality of Windows 8 UI. Regardless of what Valve claims, it all boils down to money. Valve would have less direct control over Steam in the Windows store, and might even have to pay Microsoft to be in the store; further, most Steam games are x86 and not touch friendly, which is fundamentally incompatible with the majority of tablets out there using the store. Thus, it is in Valve's best interest to encourage users NOT to buy Windows 8 as it will put them down the path of touchscreens and the Windows Store where Valve will have incredible difficulty competing. Valve needs people to stick with x86, keyboard and mouse - and if that fails, they developed their own OS platform to keep people hooked in. The fact Valve is so rattled speaks to Microsoft's potential eventual dominance with the Windows Store.

Cloud is the future whether you like it or not. Microsoft recently added very strong encryption to their cloud services, giving businesses more peace of mind. It does not have to be the place all businesses do all of their business, but it will likely evolve into the place most businesses do most of their business.

Microsoft is going in the right direction, but it will take some time for the herculean task of unifying desktop and mobile happily together to be finished. But, Microsoft has always been the turtle that wins the race. It may take some time, but I think they will eventually end up on top once they have gotten their ducks in a row. But, it will take time.

Meanwhile, Windows Phone 8.1 offers the hardware variety of Android with the ease of use, security, and efficiency of iOS. It is a definite winner for those who give it a chance, but many will slag off on it without even giving it a fair shake. This is compounded by mobile contracts and investments in other mobile ecosystems. But, in time, I believe Windows Phone will be just as popular as its competitors, if not moreso.

I look forward to the combination of Nokia and Canon - I expect some truly potent imaging potential in future Nokia products as a result, and perhaps even an LTE Canon product at some point. The Lumia 1020 was already a beast in the imaging department, with Canon's patents who knows what amazing feats its successor will accomplish.


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## jrista (Jul 4, 2014)

danski0224 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > People just like to hate on Microsoft, even when they've done good. Windows 8 is the only truly universal platform that runs multiple devices, in multiple operating modes, simultaneously. Not even Apple has topped that, and I don't think they will. I purchased an original Surface Pro, because I'd been waiting for years to be able to have a fully touch-capable device for when I'm out roaming around, while not actually having to leave my full Windows desktop capabilities at home. I was probably one of the first people using Lightroom, Photoshop and EOS Utility on a Windows 8 tablet, tethered to my Canon 7D, out in the mountains, taking landscape photos and processing them with a pressure sensitive pen on the spot with a fully featured photo editing software (not some limited or otherwise gimped "app" as is the case on iPad.)
> ...



Windows 8 is a dual-mode operating system. On a desktop, if you prefer, you can still use the classic windows desktop all the time. You can boot to it and use it pretty much exclusively. The only explicit change is the removal of the start menu for the start screen. But the start screen works 100% perfectly well with mouse and keyboard (and, for that matter, it also works with a TV remote when using a Media Center remote control). There is absolutely NOTHING about Windows 8 that makes it difficult to use on the desktop with a kb/mouse. I've been doing it since day one. This is Microsoft's greatest mistake...not properly educating their customers as to what their OS can do. Windows 8 is Windows 7, with more. That's it. There hasn't been a loss of compatibility. 

I'm pounding away on a keyboard right now, in Chrome, on the desktop, on a standard computer with no touch screen...in Windows 8.1. Touch is not a requirement in Windows 8. It's an option.


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## LDS (Jul 4, 2014)

jrista said:


> not properly educating their customers as to what their OS can do.



If you have to "educate" your customer you've already lost. I'm a software developer with over thirty years of experience in UI design, I know what I'm talking about. 8 UI design has several flaws - would you like an EOS 1 Mark 8 or EOS 5 Mark 8 with only touch controls - no dials, no buttons? I think you would find it very hard to use. And with an UI that when you modify settings wholly hides the image you're working with displaying a lot of huge, useless contents you're not interested in? Then it could be a great camera, but you would find it hard to use because it doesn't work as you expect a camera should work. And you wouldn't like if Canon or whatever else tell you "you just need to be (re)educated".
That said, I like Windows 8 on my phone and on my Surface 2 Pro tablet - but they are different devices. To take photos on a phone I can accept a touch interface, but I would never accept it on my DSLR. Different devices need a different UI.


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## jrista (Jul 4, 2014)

Mika said:


> Well apparently, Microsoft wants to have some Canon tech in their imaging stuff now. Unfortunately, I guess nobody told them that it's not exactly the same thing to transfer from system camera level imaging to mobile imaging. It does make me wonder whether when Nokia imploded the people who really knew the details of Pureview technology jumped ship... As far as I know, Nokia lost a ton of talent at the moment when Windows strategy was announced.



Gotta back claims like that up, Mika. There have been no mentions of a mass of talent leaving the company since Microsoft acquired it. There shouldn't be, either, as it should be business as usual...Microsoft owns the Lumia unit now, that doesn't mean they are going to change everything right off the bat (or change anything...Lumia is the most successful Windows phone, and it's driving the growth of Windows phone in the market...best not mess with something that works.)

PureView is the best camera technology in a phone right now. Why your complaining about that now that it's in Microsoft hands, I cannot fathom.



Mika said:


> Anyways, Microsoft hate is not because Windows 8 didn't work, or had underlying issues. The hate is because Microsoft doesn't listen to customers or just does business moves that people see are going to cost them more in the long run. And that they are trying to push their monopolistic software attitude to other business areas where they have no foothold. Or backstabbing their hardware buddies with releasing Surface to begin with.



This is again a scrap out of the 1990's. Microsoft has been directly listening to customer feedback for many years now. They have been an extremely open and cooporative company, vs. a monopolistic company, since the whole anti-trust suit. This very deal is a PERFECT example of the NON-competitive nature of the Microsoft of today. Your once again living in the past.

As for Surface...Microsoft's future is dependent upon the entire Microsoft ecosystem being directly competitive with Apple products, specifically. To be quite blunt, Microsoft's hardware partners SUCK ASS. They NEEDED a big, fat, PAINFUL kick in the rear end to knock some sense into them. The mobile windows hardware market has been failing for years...products have gotten cheaper and cheaper, and the quality of those products has tanked right along with price and profit margin. 

I just purchased a brand new Dell XPS 15, with an i7, 16GB ram, 512GB SSD, and a 15.6" 3800x1800 pixel QHD+ screen. For less than two grand. This thing is built like a MacBook Pro, and it runs circles around one. It is a BEAUTIFUL device, with a backlit keyboard and a construction quality like I've never before seen in the Microsoft ecosystem. I also am 100% ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that it would have never existed if Microsoft hadn't entered the game and produced a driving incentive for their own business partners to one-up them. Microsoft's strategy with Surface worked, IMO. Their PARTNERS, who are now also their competitors, are building better products. They are building competitive products that no only compete with the Surface (which is a good device, I have a Surface Pro myself), but also compete directly with Apple products. 

The Dell XPS 15 is a beautiful example of the genius behind Microsoft making themselves a competitor in their own ecosystem...it was an essential move to revitalize their industry. No one sees that...because everyone is stuck in the late 1990's and an anti-trust suit that wasn't satisfactory to their hateful expectations. Times have changed...time to get up to date.



Mika said:


> Vista with Office updates that forced non-customizable Ribbon was bad enough, and on top of that, the companies had to pay to get people on courses how to use 20 year old tools again.
> 
> Now, add another Office change (2010), the UI didn't remain constant, although I think it was a general improvement to 2007. Add on Windows 8 screwing the operating system UI again with Microsoft marketing trying to push it as a "vast improvement" where real world experience was completely different. Especially when beta testers WARNED the company about this.



The ribbon was a DIRECT response to years of customer feedback on the Office UI. People hated having to dig multiple levels deep within menu systems to find features in Word and Excel primarily. Microsoft designed the ribbon in an effort to solve that exact problem, based on explicit CUSTOMER feedback about the problems with their old Office design. Ribbon was a success in that it brought everything right to the surface, one level deep in a series of tabs. 

The problem, again, is that people simply don't seem to like change, if that change is coming from Microsoft. (If it is Apple changing something, everyone hails it as revolutionary genius...such as in the iOS 7 change...which, ironically, was simply to make their semi-3D rounded corner icons mostly flat rounded corner icons...oh, and to add a little bit of translucency in a few new places...flat...which, ironically, was largely pioneered by Microsoft with their Metro UI design). Change is the focal point of progress. Everything has to change at some point to be improved. Microsoft has made REASONABLE changes to things like Office, such as with the introduction of the Ribbon UI, and usually in direct response to customer feedback. 

I've seen changes made to the Zune desktop player and XBox Music UIs based directly on my feedback...I asked for a couple explicit features directly to Microsoft over the phone, based on an issue I was having. I referenced a number of threads on Microsoft forums where the same feature was being asked for. Within maybe a month, an update was pushed that added the feature and one other change I'd asked for. 

Microsoft's ecosystem is huge. For as many people as use iPhones, Microsoft's installed base of Windows computers is well over a BILLION now. The majority of those are Windows 7 and Windows 8.x (and the server counterparts), with a rapidly fading presence in XP. When you have an installed base in the billions, it's impossible to make any change that satisfies 100% of your user base (not even Apple could accomplish that...iOS 7/8 has had it's fair share of detractors, sometimes audible in the throng of brainwashed fanaticism.) 



Mika said:


> It doesn't help that Windows 8.1 removes a part of the forced stupidity (though I wouldn't cross my fingers), the version name is already tainted. It has to be Windows 9 and an attitude change to recover from this. The point is, if the most downloaded third-party application is Classic Shell, the UI was ****ed to begin with. Note that this holds for the business side experience when using desktops with large screens.
> 
> Unfortunately, Microsoft also started to push for cloud integration in Office, and at this part of the world, there's not a lot of businesses who would like to upload critical information to servers based in the US given the current legislation that can confiscate the data at any point. I'm pretty sure Microsoft's plan is to start forcing cloud services down on our throats gradually to charge the usage basis for monthly services, and that I don't want.



Now your just speculating about Microsoft forcing anything on it's customers. You can still, and will always be able to, buy Office stand-alone. I did. I own a couple stand alone copies. I opted for that, instead of the much cheaper $99/yr Office Cloud standard edition. I prefer to store my data locally...but not everyone does. Some people, some corporations and smaller businesses, much prefer to offload the once-necessary costs and complexities of managing their own computer networks and systems onto a larger business entity that has more talented and effective resources for managing such things.

The Cloud, as far as Microsoft is concerned, isn't about the end consumer. The cloud is about the enterprise and the business user. Microsoft's cloud business is actually one of their more successful business units, as well. They have been seeing consistent growth in the Azure cloud and cloud-based service offerings. A lot of people and a lot of corporations WANT cloud offerings. With social and search services like Google and Facebook coming under fire for a lot of misuse of customer data, Microsoft has just been plugging away doing what they do...enterprise systems and support. They offer a truly viable alternative to Google that is more secure and untainted with a history of data abuse or spying or controversial "social experimentation" on an unknowing populace of users or anything like that.

Cloud is Microsoft's strength. Their biggest competitor there is actually Amazon, and they are making headway, helping spur a competitive market in the cloud services business.



Mika said:


> I also definitely don't like the Microsoft store integration of the computer UI, and from what it seems, neither did the entertainment industry. Ask how bad it had to be if Valve switched on to developing their own operating system!



The way app stores are run isn't really a Microsoft thing. Apple started that trend, and in many ways, it is essential to the protection of consumers. Just look into how many problems and security issues can and have occurred on the Android platform, with it's open app store, vs. how many of those kinds of issues occur on Apple or Microsoft devices. There needs to be some level of buffer, some small barrier to entry, to help weed out the apps that are designed by data and identity thieves for the purposes of data and identity theft, fraud, etc. 

The other issue here is costs and revenue. Microsoft runs the server farm that manages their app store, just like Apple does. It is also a key source of long-term revenue, for both companies. It's a business choice those companies made. Again, when you have such a massive ecosystem, you cannot make decisions that satisfy 100% of your customers. 

The Valve problem would have been the same if Steam wanted to do it on the iOS platform. Valve did not want to share it's revenue with Microsoft. Ok, fine. That's the business decision Valve has made. That doesn't make it some kind of a referendum against Windows 8. It simply means that Steam doesn't want to share their revenue, and that's certainly a decision they are allowed to make. It doesn't matter in the end anyway...Windows 8 is still Windows 7 when your on the desktop, and Steam has always worked the same as it always has. There is no loss for Valve here...there is no requirement that they move to an app store model.

There is also no reason that Valve couldn't work with Microsoft on a deal to have a Steam metro app that worked in a unique way to support Valves needs. Microsoft worked with the VLC media player team to help them create a version of VLC that would operate under the (necessary, for security purposes) sandboxing and library limitations of standard Windows 8 apps. VLC makes use of some key low-level C libraries for the kind of performance they require, which are normally not allowed in metro apps. And yet...the first version of VLC for Windows 8 was released a number of months ago.



Mika said:


> This is, of course, from my point of view. If you ask me, Windows 8 could've worked had the preferred UI been a simple question in the beginning. Ribbon would work better if it was customizable. Microsoft's name would look better if it wasn't seen nowadays as a potential competitor with their customers and so on.



You have clearly never been part of a software development project, certainly not on any large-scale project that had a large installed base of users. You have to START somewhere. You have to make the decisions of what things your going to include, so you can allocate the resources to implement those things, then send em through the long and complex pipeline of proper testing, QA, refinement, patent generation, pre-production testing, release preparation, stock production, and final release to the storefront shelf and consumers. Microsoft made their decisions about where to START with Windows 8. They have been making progressive updates and improvements that, once again based directly on customer feedback, are greatly improving the product. It's a process. Processes take time.

(BTW, Ribbon IS customizable...highly. You don't quite seem to have your facts strait about Microsoft or their products...probably because you abandoned Microsoft a decade ago, and have simply been regurgitating the same old drivel about mean, predatory, hateful old behemoth "Microsoft the Monopoly" for the same amount of time. Things have changed...and your seeing everything through a lens that keeps you stuck in the past.)


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## jrista (Jul 4, 2014)

LDS said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > not properly educating their customers as to what their OS can do.
> ...



Every company educates their customers about their products. A significant part of that is done through advertising, on TV and elsewhere. Microsoft could have educated their customers with a 15 second spot on TV, showing Windows 8 in both the new touch/metro mode as well as the old desktop mode. That's as simple as it would have had to be. For anyone who has actually used Windows 8, it only takes a moment to find the desktop tile on the start screen and get back into the desktop. 

The majority of the complaints come from people who don't actually seem to use Windows 8. They then seem to regularly make the assumption that Windows 8 is only touch. Let's not even call it education...let's just call it communication. Microsoft's only real failure with Windows 8 was failure to communicate the FACT that it is 100% compatible with standard desktop computers with a keyboard and mouse. I speak from personal experience, having used Windows 8 since beta, that there are ZERO difficulties with using Windows 8, any version of it, with a keyboard and mouse. ZERO. Microsoft simply needed to communicate and show that full compatibility, and the misconception, that still seems to persist today, that Windows 8 doesn't work well with kb/mouse or doesn't work without touch, is FALSE. 

That is Microsoft's greatest failing. They don't communicate as well as Apple. I don't think Ballmer really cared that much about advertising and communicating their products capabilities to consumers. I hope that will change under new management...as if Microsoft can overcome the issues they have communicating their products capabilities to their customers, their customers could stop assuming incorrect things about Microsoft products and simply get along with using them.




LDS said:


> I'm a software developer with over thirty years of experience in UI design, I know what I'm talking about. 8 UI design has several flaws - would you like an EOS 1 Mark 8 or EOS 5 Mark 8 with only touch controls - no dials, no buttons? I think you would find it very hard to use. And with an UI that when you modify settings wholly hides the image you're working with displaying a lot of huge, useless contents you're not interested in? Then it could be a great camera, but you would find it hard to use because it doesn't work as you expect a camera should work. And you wouldn't like if Canon or whatever else tell you "you just need to be (re)educated".
> That said, I like Windows 8 on my phone and on my Surface 2 Pro tablet - but they are different devices. To take photos on a phone I can accept a touch interface, but I would never accept it on my DSLR. Different devices need a different UI.



I've been writing code since the age of 8, and writing software since the 90's. I've been doing graphic design and UI development for about the same amount of time.  I'm honestly not sure what UI design flaws your talking about:

"And with an UI that when you modify settings wholly hides the image you're working with displaying a lot of huge, useless contents you're not interested in?"

What exactly are you referring to, here? I have never had any experience with Windows 8 that would match that rather vague description of...something...

Also, I do not believe this patent sharing deal between Canon and Microsoft really has anything to do with putting Windows Phone into a Canon DSLR. Maybe, at some point, some years down the road, I think we might see a Canon touch UI powered by the Windows Phone PLATFORM. I don't think it would actually be the WP8 we currently use on our phones today...I think it would be more like XBox 1. It would make use of the technology Microsoft has, the core operating system and the app platform, to build something custom that actually worked quite ideally with a Canon camera. Something that supported external buttons in ADDITION to a multi-touch UI. 

Others have made this argument before. Personally, I'm a button and dial guy. But when you get into the menu system...it would actually be really nice to have touch capabilities. Or when your on the settings grid on a Canon DSLR, it would be nice just to be able to touch one of the cells, rather than press a button, to configure any of the common settings...EC, WB, AF, ISO, etc. 

Your thinking a little too literally here. Canon having access to Microsoft's patents is a REALLY GOOD THING. They won't just drop WP8 on their next DSLRs or compact cameras. However they could utilize Microsofts multitouch patents, or even their mobile OS kernel, as a platform upon which to build something more well suited to their products. It's just the PATENTS that are shared...the underlying technological concepts. Not any of Microsoft's OSs themselves. (I actually assume that Canon would have to pay a license fee to actually use WP8 itself on a DSLR.)


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## joemod (Jul 4, 2014)

I apologize in advance for the following. Jrista you seem to be too offensive to posters who don't like Microsoft or Windows 8. I wanted to reply to Ruined writing something against the usability of windows 8 and I am afraid that you will bash me. Why that?
By the way it seems that most of the replies have nothing to do with the announcement.


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## zim (Jul 4, 2014)

joemod said:


> I apologize in advance for the following. Jrista you seem to be too offensive to posters who don't like Microsoft or Windows 8. I wanted to reply to Ruined writing something against the usability of windows 8 and I am afraid that you will bash me. Why that?
> By the way it seems that most of the replies have nothing to do with the announcement.



joemod I don't see anything 'offensive' from jrista he has strong beliefs calls people out and likes a damn good discussion. I have to admit that having worked with and for Microsoft enterprise solutions for many years and prior to that Autodesk (started developing business solutions around 85) I get heartily fed up with the constant same old same old MS bashing that goes on but I grew a thick skin for that may years ago I prefer to just read and move on.

Regards


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## danski0224 (Jul 4, 2014)

jrista said:


> Windows 8 is a dual-mode operating system. On a desktop, if you prefer, you can still use the classic windows desktop all the time. You can boot to it and use it pretty much exclusively. The only explicit change is the removal of the start menu for the start screen. But the start screen works 100% perfectly well with mouse and keyboard (and, for that matter, it also works with a TV remote when using a Media Center remote control). There is absolutely NOTHING about Windows 8 that makes it difficult to use on the desktop with a kb/mouse. I've been doing it since day one. This is Microsoft's greatest mistake...not properly educating their customers as to what their OS can do. Windows 8 is Windows 7, with more. That's it. There hasn't been a loss of compatibility.
> 
> I'm pounding away on a keyboard right now, in Chrome, on the desktop, on a standard computer with no touch screen...in Windows 8.1. Touch is not a requirement in Windows 8. It's an option.



Well, I'll have to look into it more deeply then.

I understand that touch is not a requirement, but how to get there (1) isn't clear and (2) is filled with misinformation.


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## jrista (Jul 4, 2014)

danski0224 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Windows 8 is a dual-mode operating system. On a desktop, if you prefer, you can still use the classic windows desktop all the time. You can boot to it and use it pretty much exclusively. The only explicit change is the removal of the start menu for the start screen. But the start screen works 100% perfectly well with mouse and keyboard (and, for that matter, it also works with a TV remote when using a Media Center remote control). There is absolutely NOTHING about Windows 8 that makes it difficult to use on the desktop with a kb/mouse. I've been doing it since day one. This is Microsoft's greatest mistake...not properly educating their customers as to what their OS can do. Windows 8 is Windows 7, with more. That's it. There hasn't been a loss of compatibility.
> ...



There is a tile on the start menu for the desktop. It's a pretty big tile by default. You can also always hit the windows key to swap back and forth between desktop and start menu. You can also get to it via WinKey-Tab (which cycles through your tasks). On a touch system, swipe from the left to cycle through tasks. The desktop is now just a task like any other, so it will always come up when cycling through apps.

There are a lot of ways of getting to the desktop. In Win8.1 Updt. 1, Microsoft actually asks you where you want to boot to by default...desktop or start menu. It's pretty easy to get to the desktop. One your there...well, if you've used windows over the last two decades at all, then you know exactly how to use it. 



joemod said:


> I apologize in advance for the following. Jrista you seem to be too offensive to posters who don't like Microsoft or Windows 8. I wanted to reply to Ruined writing something against the usability of windows 8 and I am afraid that you will bash me. Why that?
> By the way it seems that most of the replies have nothing to do with the announcement.



I am not being offensive, and it isn't "bashing"...I am simply direct. I don't like beating around the bush. I'm the guy on the forums who doesn't like misinformation, and I correct it at every opportunity. If you can't handle that, you can feel free to ignore me on the forums (it's an actual feature, you could block my posts forever). 

There is FAR too much misinformation and unfounded hate for Microsoft. They have a past, like any of us...but the Microsoft of today is a very different company of the Microsoft of decades past. The reasons people hate Microsoft (and I really do use that word explicitly, it's pure unadulterated hate for many people) are old, archaic, and usually unfounded. I think people are missing out in many cases, if they are choosing to avoid upgrading to Microsoft's latest operating systems or software because of misinformation, hearsay, and the outright lies about the company and it's products online. 

In the 90's and early 2000's, Windows was known more for the BSOD than anything else. To be 100% perfectly honest...I haven't even seen a blue screen in an absolute minimum of a year. On my own computers, I haven't seen a BSOD in years. Whenever any kind of issue has occurred, the operating system has usually self-corrected itself. I've had hardware issues (I was actually underpowering a high powered video card by about 5 amps for a long while), and drivers would crash, and the operating system would detect that failure, reset the video card, reset the driver, and restore everything to working condition (let me see a Mac to THAT!! HA!)

I honestly don't believe Microsoft deserves the bad rap they get. I honestly don't understand the long term persistent hate they get from so many people, over products that are long dead and irrelevant in todays world. I honestly don't understand why the same old tired excuses people use to justify their MS hate, which are now a decade old or more, are constantly recycled and regurgitated across the net incessantly by people who appear to have last used windows in the 1990's!!!! It's illogical, and it's just plain dumb. 

I've had plenty of problems with the iPhones I've owned over the years. The worst of all was the atrocious call quality through GENERATIONS of iPhones...call quality that I originally blamed AT&T for until I finally switched to a Windows Phone 7 device...and then, suddenly, out of the blue...my call quality was PERFECT. Crystal clear, crisp, loud. I was blown away. I've had iOS devices lock up on my often. I've seen more broken iPhone screens than I can count or even remember. I've never once had any of those problems with my old HTC WP7 phone or my Lumia. I've dropped the lumia on a few occasions...once directly on it's glass face. The thing still doesn't have a scratch on it, and there is one tiny microscopic nick in the glass that can only be seen when the light is at the right angle. The device has worked flawlessly, continued to provide that perfect phone call clarity, throughout it's now two year old life. 

There is no perfect company, and Apple, of all companies, is more monopolistic in it's practices than Microsoft ever was (HUGE multi-billion dollar lawsuits over ROUNDED CORNER ICONS??? Purposely locking people into their vendor-specific connections, instead of being compatible with the rest of the world and all the rest of the worlds devices???)

Sorry, but the kind of loyalty that remains loyal to a company *to a fault* really irks me. Apple has a fanatical following that dwarfs any kind of following Microsoft has ever had, and it's all IN SPITE of the drawbacks and failings of Apple, IN SPITE of their monopolistic and hefty vendor lock in tactics. IN SPITE of the long-term terrible working conditions of their overseas factory workers. Apple is no more deserving of that kind of...what...LOVE...from their consumers than any other company, and yet they get it anyway. Why? Because they are not Microsoft? Totally illogical.

I switched brands, when Microsoft stuff got sucky. Gave another brand a try. Changed my loyalties. The grass really wasn't greener on the other side, it was more costly, riddled with vendor lock in, and still had bugs and hardware issues. I switched back, and while it still isn't the brilliant deep emerald blue-green I want, the grass definitely tastes better and is more often a deeper green on the Microsoft side these days.


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## Rudeofus (Jul 5, 2014)

jrista, the way you normally write about Canon's product line and strategic decisions, and now about Microsoft and their latest products, reminds me a lot about the time when I was a teenager and fell in love for the first time. It's a long time since then, but I still remember the mind set I was in.

To put some ugly zits on that Microsoft crush you seemingly have developed, I may draw to your attention to the fact that Microsoft has not abandoned their predatory style. Just remember the way their henchman Stephen "trojan horse" Elop took over Nokia, killed its long awaited new product strategy, turned a profitable company into a loss making, demoralized corporate cadaver that was ultimately coup de grace'd by Microsoft themselves - with a paycheck for Elop that easily matches all of CR's membership taken together. One should not be surprised that computer folks, who got burned by Microsoft's tactics twenty years ago, are still a bit touchy, especially when the company and their products are presented like ... well, see my first paragraph here.

Back to the original topic: If Microsoft would have wanted access to DSLR or lens related patents, they could have gotten a similar deal from Nikon for a lot less. After all Nikon is a much, much smaller company, most likely with a much smaller patent portfolio, and they are still able to manufacture and market competitive DSLRs and lenses. Let's not forget that Canon's camera division is just a small part of the whole enterprise, and I can well imagine that Microsoft saw a lot more utility in Canon's large office product line and IP, and that this was the real motivation behind the deal.


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## RLPhoto (Jul 5, 2014)

Windows 8 is the new vista. A lot was learned and shouldn't have been released yet but will lay the groundwork for the next integration of windows.

My personal gripes with win 8.

1. Start menu.
2. Charms bar.
3. The real Control panel is buried.
4. Forced metro.
5. No contextuality in some of the flat design. Continuity.
6. That horrid swipe gesture from left to right on laptops that accidentally brings up another app I didn't want.
7. A real recovery disk anyone?
8. Speaking of which, no CD key?
9. 8.1? A little too late.
10. Windows 7 pro is just a workhorse. It will be the new XP.

but I do like metro on a tablet for one ability only. To run real windows programs in the desktop mode. It's the sole reason I see putting money into a iPad or android tablet a waste for my uses.

I'll wait till windows 9.


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## jrista (Jul 5, 2014)

Rudeofus said:


> jrista, the way you normally write about Canon's product line and strategic decisions, and now about Microsoft and their latest products, reminds me a lot about the time when I was a teenager and fell in love for the first time. It's a long time since then, but I still remember the mind set I was in.
> 
> To put some ugly zits on that Microsoft crush you seemingly have developed, I may draw to your attention to the fact that Microsoft has not abandoned their predatory style. Just remember the way their henchman Stephen "trojan horse" Elop took over Nokia, killed its long awaited new product strategy, turned a profitable company into a loss making, demoralized corporate cadaver that was ultimately coup de grace'd by Microsoft themselves - with a paycheck for Elop that easily matches all of CR's membership taken together. One should not be surprised that computer folks, who got burned by Microsoft's tactics twenty years ago, are still a bit touchy, especially when the company and their products are presented like ... well, see my first paragraph here.
> 
> Back to the original topic: If Microsoft would have wanted access to DSLR or lens related patents, they could have gotten a similar deal from Nikon for a lot less. After all Nikon is a much, much smaller company, most likely with a much smaller patent portfolio, and they are still able to manufacture and market competitive DSLRs and lenses. Let's not forget that Canon's camera division is just a small part of the whole enterprise, and I can well imagine that Microsoft saw a lot more utility in Canon's large office product line and IP, and that this was the real motivation behind the deal.



Your making some wild accusations about the Elop thing. I think they are unfounded, and I think THAT is the kind of crap Microsoft gets rap for that they do not deserve. Elop is an idiot. He always has been, always will be. If Microsoft had chosen Elop to be their new CEO, then I'd have probably ditched MS products in the long term...Elop would have UTTERLY DESTROYED Microsoft. He would have sold off their most lucrative brands and catered to the every whim of the stock holder. They would have been a completely dead brand outside of a niche enterprise market within less than a decade.

I'm not happy Elop is still around, I am SURE there are a lot of people at MS who feel the same...but that's the world of business. One thing Elop does know is how to maneuver himself into lucrative positions, and extract a few monster pay days here and there. For some, that's just the world of business, it's what they do. I find it despicable. I'm still reserving judgement of MS' new CEO. He deserves some time to learn the reigns, make a mistake or two and learn from them, before I either label him another idiot, or the potential savior of a company that has a lot of (unrealized) potential. 

As for just being a mindless fan, no, I'm not. I am a fan, don't get me wrong. But I've been through many phases with Microsoft. I generally abhor Apple. Always have. Never liked their approach, their products, their vendor lockin, or Jobs insistnce on having just one friggin button!  There was a time when I was so dissatisfied with Microsoft that I moved to iPhone...that was a MASSIVE change for me. I stuck with it for years, too, and when the iPhone 4S came around, I thought the product was finally getting somewhere...but there is where it's stayed for the last couple of years, and many of the key problems were never fixed. (That's one of those things Apple does...a lot of people hate Microsoft for changing things every few years, other people hate Apple for ignoring the same old problems for years and years.) Right now, I think Microsoft is a great company. They are producing better products, some of them are excellent, their stock is rising fast (which indicates I'm not alone in my assessment), and I am eminently familiar with the brand. 

My big thing is I think Microsoft takes a bigger hit when it comes to people ragging on it than they deserve, while some like Apple don't get nearly enough. I think Microsoft needs a defender who will set some of the record strait. I am not calling them a perfect company...they have their crummy products, and they have certainly made their mistakes. But things change. Things have changed for the better at Microsoft in recent years, and I am happy to recognize that. It may not remain that way...and if it does not...well, I'll at the very least stick with my current products and avoid upgrading, and I'll wait for the next cycle where things get good again. And, maybe, try out some alternatives in between. I try not to hold grudge. (BTW, I still own and use Apple products...the ones I think are worth it...if/when Apple makes some significant changes to iOS to fix the issues it has that I don't like, I'lll happily give a future iPad a try....I miss some apps that haven't yet made it to the MS ecosystem.)


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## Ruined (Jul 5, 2014)

danski0224 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Windows 8 is a dual-mode operating system. On a desktop, if you prefer, you can still use the classic windows desktop all the time. You can boot to it and use it pretty much exclusively. The only explicit change is the removal of the start menu for the start screen. But the start screen works 100% perfectly well with mouse and keyboard (and, for that matter, it also works with a TV remote when using a Media Center remote control). There is absolutely NOTHING about Windows 8 that makes it difficult to use on the desktop with a kb/mouse. I've been doing it since day one. This is Microsoft's greatest mistake...not properly educating their customers as to what their OS can do. Windows 8 is Windows 7, with more. That's it. There hasn't been a loss of compatibility.
> ...



Err.. In Windows 8.1 if you are not using a tablet the OS boots to a Windows7-like desktop by default. Only difference is when you hit the start button, the start menu is graphical instead of text.


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## Rudeofus (Jul 5, 2014)

jrista said:


> Your making some wild accusations about the Elop thing. I think they are unfounded, and I think THAT is the kind of crap Microsoft gets rap for that they do not deserve. Elop is an idiot. He always has been, always will be. If Microsoft had chosen Elop to be their new CEO, then I'd have probably ditched MS products in the long term...Elop would have UTTERLY DESTROYED Microsoft. He would have sold off their most lucrative brands and catered to the every whim of the stock holder. They would have been a completely dead brand outside of a niche enterprise market within less than a decade.


Elop was as much an idiot as Kim Philby, or he would not have collected a massive paycheck from Microsoft after he finally brought Nokia to its knees. Remember that Nokia was once the pride of Finland's electronics industry and a leading maker of mobile phone hand sets, in the end they were scooped up by Microsoft for a pittance. The reason Elop didn't become Microsofts next CEO was not his alleged incompetence, but that they were probably deadly afraid of a person with his skills and his character.

BTW I fully understand your sentiment about Apple, having had a PowerMac go through three major faults in 2 1/2 years, the last one would have cost more to repair than a decent new PC would cost. That was my last Apple product as far as I am concerned. But you have to understand (but not necessarily support) the general sentiment about Microsoft and Apple: Microsoft is what you were forced to use at work, like it or not, regardless of its technical merits. Apple, and in particular iPhones, were the first products to break that corporate stronghold, and welcomed by many people for this very reason, regardless of all their flaws. Their walled garden for software installations were loathed by many nerds, but welcomed by computing illiterates (i.e. the general masses) because it avoided the whole virus issue for good (still remember code red, nimda and "I love you"?)


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## joemod (Jul 5, 2014)

jrista said:


> joemod said:
> 
> 
> > I apologize in advance for the following. Jrista you seem to be too offensive to posters who don't like Microsoft or Windows 8. I wanted to reply to Ruined writing something against the usability of windows 8 and I am afraid that you will bash me. Why that?
> ...


Well I don't want to ignore you because I like your photography related posts. As about Windows8 I 'll quote RLPhoto's post:


RLPhoto said:


> Windows 8 is the new vista. A lot was learned and shouldn't have been released yet but will lay the groundwork for the next integration of windows.
> 
> My personal gripes with win 8.
> 
> ...


I 'd add that I don't want to scroll for like 20 seconds to reach calculator in Greek Win8 while in windows 7 i could just press start and type calc. Also if Microsoft's decision on win8 UI was correct why do they revert it in win9?
Please accept that regardless my prejudice against Microsoft (which I admit I have since they did the Crusader's expedition against Linux), win8 is unusable as a desktop user for me, while I am pretty fond of windows 7.


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## jrista (Jul 5, 2014)

joemod said:


> I 'd add that I don't want to scroll for like 20 seconds to reach calculator in Greek Win8 while in windows 7 i could just press start and type calc. Also if Microsoft's decision on win8 UI was correct why do they revert it in win9?
> Please accept that regardless my prejudice against Microsoft (which I admit I have since they did the Crusader's expedition against Linux), win8 is unusable as a desktop user for me, while I am pretty fond of windows 7.



*Sigh*

It's so sad that so much misinformation about Windows 8 has permanently infected peoples brains. 

In windows 8..you can STILL just hit start (i.e. the windows key on the keyboard), and just start typing! In Windows 8, search is integrated and FIRST CLASS. On the start screen, you can just start typing...type ANYTHING, and it will search in multiple contexts. If you start typing "calc", a panel will slide out from the right-hand side of the screen, and you'll see a filtered list of apps, then other things, that matched "calc". The FIRST thing that comes up is the calculator:







Once you see it listed and highlighted (takes about 0.02 seconds), you just hit enter and it runs...ON THE DESKTOP! 

If you run a search, and windows determines it did not actually find exactly what your looking for, hitting enter runs Bing universal search:






Personally, when I first got Windows 8, I didn't make any assumptions about things I figured probably wouldn't work. I just started using the start screen how I'd always used the start menu. I simply started typing on the start screen to search for apps and other things...just like I always did in Windows 7. I wasn't even surprised when it worked...OF COURSE IT WORKED! :

This is why I so actively defend Microsoft. People make a LOT of wild assumptions, then figure their assumptions are actual fact, when in reality they are the farthest thing from. You ASSUMED that Windows 8 couldn't search for apps just by typing the app name in on the start screen. That is fundamentally incorrect. Search is a first class citizen of Windows 8. Not only can you directly search for apps, files, anything else local...but when Windows can't find exactly what your looking for locally, you can launch the universal search, which does a deeper search of everything everywhere...locally, and whatever is indexed by Bing. Such as the case with my "Downtown Denver" search above. 

People are gypping themselves by assuming incorrectly about Windows 8, and sticking to Windows 7. Windows 7 is more power hungry, slower, and _*less *_capable than Windows 8. That's all there is to it. I would be willing to bet that over 90% of the assumptions about things that are supposedly missing, moved, or improperly implemented in Windows 8 are flat out wrong. 



> Also if Microsoft's decision on win8 UI was correct why do they revert it in win9?



Well, first, there is no Windows 9 yet. So, Microsoft hasn't "reverted" anything. All the press releases indicate Microsoft is going to be building on the changes in Windows 8.x when Windows 9 finally rolls around. The start screen isn't going anywhere, but it sounds like it will be greatly enhanced. The dual-mode nature of the platform will remain. Deeper integration and reduction of independent code bases for Windows 9 on the desktop and tablets, and Windows Phone 9 on phones, will be reduced even further, bringing us closer to a truly unified OS that runs on everything (probably won't happen before Win 10, but as I said before, things take time, especially in an iterative world.)

If you are referring to Windows 8.1 rather than 9, well again, nothing has been reverted. New capabilities and features have been ADDED, but nothing has been taken away. The start screen, for example, is still there in Windows 8.1. The only difference is now users can choose whether to BOOT to the desktop, or the start screen. That's an extremely simple change, and an obvious one. Why wasn't it in the original release? Who knows, however it isn't surprising for every single feature imaginable by a billion customers to make it into the FIRST release of anything. Every software development project has to pick their battles, solve the most important problems first. Boot to desktop could very well have already been on Microsofts TODO list...and it just didn't make the cut.

If you want an idea of how Microsoft's internal processes work, read Eric Lippert's blog. He was a lead on the C# compiler team for many years. He is a public figure, regular participant in large software development communities like StackOverflow. Being a public figure like that, he was a front man for EVERYONEs feature requests for the C# language. He wrote blog posts on many of them, the ones he received most often, and explained why they could not be added, or explained why if they were added, it had to be done EXTREMELY carefully, or why if it was easy to add them, why they were at the very bottom of the carefully prioritized list of things that needed to be done with C#. Windows is no different...it's software. All software projects have goals and requirements, and that list of goals and requirements is prioritized in order of the most critical to nice but not actually necessary, for any given release. Windows is never going to have every single feature that every single user wants every time it's released...but many of the most important or most frequently demanded features are likely to end up in the product, if it's feasible, in subsequent releases.


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## Ruined (Jul 6, 2014)

joemod said:


> I 'd add that I don't want to scroll for like 20 seconds to reach calculator in Greek Win8 while in windows 7 i could just press start and type calc.



In addition to the previous post's solution (just typing on start screen=instant search, just as fast as win7), in Windows 8.1 you can also press Start+R to get a run dialog box immediately.



joemod said:


> Also if Microsoft's decision on win8 UI was correct why do they revert it in win9?
> Please accept that regardless my prejudice against Microsoft (which I admit I have since they did the Crusader's expedition against Linux), win8 is unusable as a desktop user for me, while I am pretty fond of windows 7.



win9 does not revert it, it refines it. windows 7 is the past, while it may be great on the desktop it is a failure on tablets due to the small ui elements. ignoring tablets would be death of windows in time. So, Windows 8 was the beginning of an OS that can do desktop and tablet. Windows 9 refines it, it does not revert it. The start screen will still be there for tablets, and desktop will get a blend. Windows Store apps will need to remain a part of desktop Windows as over time it will be the way most apps are delivered.

Most of the points brought up about windows 8.1 here are by those who do not know how to fully use windows 8.1 Your calc "problem" is an example of this, as the procedure is virtually identical for 7 & 8 - you just start typing at the start menu / screen respectively (or can use the run hotkey). Another poster brought up it is hard to find desktop, when desktop is the default bootup screen for windows 8.1 when not using a tablet - makes me wonder if people have even made a solid attempt at 8.1 or are just haters. Windows 9 will perhaps make some of these tricks more obvious and make the OS easier to grasp, but in reality it will be the same OS - just polished like 7 is a polished version of Vista.


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## jrista (Jul 6, 2014)

Ruined said:


> joemod said:
> 
> 
> > I 'd add that I don't want to scroll for like 20 seconds to reach calculator in Greek Win8 while in windows 7 i could just press start and type calc.
> ...



Hi Ruined.  Nice to meet you! ;D


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## joemod (Jul 6, 2014)

jrista said:


> Ruined said:
> 
> 
> > joemod said:
> ...



After getting owned, let me go back into my hole


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## OKO-SAN (Jul 7, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> <ERROR>
> Camera 2.13.4321 is incompatible with Windows Media Player 12.962. Please upgrade your copy of Microsoft Office to the latest version.


 Mountain gave birth to a mouse.


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## Mika (Jul 7, 2014)

> Gotta back claims like that up, Mika. There have been no mentions of a mass of talent leaving the company since Microsoft acquired it. There shouldn't be, either, as it should be business as usual...Microsoft owns the Lumia unit now, that doesn't mean they are going to change everything right off the bat (or change anything...Lumia is the most successful Windows phone, and it's driving the growth of Windows phone in the market...best not mess with something that works.)
> 
> PureView is the best camera technology in a phone right now. Why your complaining about that now that it's in Microsoft hands, I cannot fathom.



Re-read what I said. I said the people left when Microsoft strategy was ANNOUNCED, which dates some months before the infamous burning platform memo. Nokia had to offer large cash incentives to keep people working in the house. You may also be interested to know I work in the R&D side of things, and actually in the city where Nokia mobile started. Some of my university time buddies ended up there, and additionally, some of the Nokia people came to us after the announcement. The writing was already on the wall at that time as they knew Microsoft is going to be selected, and elected to get out. I'll try to limit the discussion about mobile stuff from here on as it is so far out of topic.

Again, re-read what I said. I certainly didn't complain Pureview is on Microsoft's hands. I'm saying they didn't get everybody involved in the technology, and the patent deal with Canon; that I interpret as realizing that they don't know enough of image processing in-house as no other Canon patent area is really applicable to their side of business. Alternative interpretations are, of course, possible.



> This is again a scrap out of the 1990's. Microsoft has been directly listening to customer feedback for many years now. They have been an extremely open and cooporative company, vs. a monopolistic company, since the whole anti-trust suit. This very deal is a PERFECT example of the NON-competitive nature of the Microsoft of today. Your once again living in the past.



Oh? How many years ago did you say this happened last? Since I think the last time was about two years ago when Microsoft royally ****ed up deals with mobile operators, trying to utilize similar strategy of trying to force their terms to mobile operators (relatively dumb if you ask me, those companies are among the richest on Earth). Unfortunately for them, operators answered "Go home Mr. Nobody". And it really shows in pathetic sales. As for the actual reference, take a look on the shareholders' meeting memos from Nokia. I don't for a second believe that the typical predatory tactics would have changed at all, and they will be used when necessary. Large companies just are like that.



> As for Surface...Microsoft's future is dependent upon the entire Microsoft ecosystem being directly competitive with Apple products, specifically. To be quite blunt, Microsoft's hardware partners SUCK ASS. They NEEDED a big, fat, PAINFUL kick in the rear end to knock some sense into them. The mobile windows hardware market has been failing for years...products have gotten cheaper and cheaper, and the quality of those products has tanked right along with price and profit margin.



Well, if that's the way you see it. I see it a bit differently - Microsoft reduced the profitability of these companies up to the point their R&D became mainly small incremental upgrades and now enters the same market, able to out price their hardware due to software licensing costs. Actually, because of this threat, Linux got considerably better video card support from AMD just last year due to Microsoft's actions, and that's just from the top of my head. And what it comes to products getting cheaper, that's probably true. What I don't agree with is quality. 

Comparing something to Apple stuff doesn't really impress, it's a company that can't even get their OFFICIAL chargers working (=cutting corners with electrical safety to reduce size of the charger). If we had the same legislation before entering EU, it would not have been even possible to sell the OFFICIAL Apple chargers here due to safety regulation violations.

Generally in Europe, it's considered a bad move to jump to enter the same area as your customers - it is guaranteed to create ill-will, so you really shouldn't be surprised because of this. Funny thing is, this is exactly the recent stuff why Microsoft is not liked, but you're downplaying this example by saying it's a genius move. Well, I don't know, it could be strategical genius at play, but the chances are, you're also taking a risk of alienating your OEMs. It doesn't happen in a second, though, and Microsoft has cash to play. See where I'm getting at?



> The ribbon was a DIRECT response to years of customer feedback on the Office UI. People hated having to dig multiple levels deep within menu systems to find features in Word and Excel primarily. Microsoft designed the ribbon in an effort to solve that exact problem, based on explicit CUSTOMER feedback about the problems with their old Office design. Ribbon was a success in that it brought everything right to the surface, one level deep in a series of tabs.



I know the background of the Ribbon. I've to F______ use it every F______ day. Including Paint (seriously, what the hell Microsoft?) and ZEMAX, whose latest update incorporated it, despite the CUSTOMER FEEDBACK not to go there. Luckily, with professional software, they have to implement menu structure - and I've seen no-one using the Ribbon in CAD software in our house. What it comes to the Office, I agree that user feedback triggered the change, but the change itself is still botched.

You are saying that Ribbon put everything on the surface, right? Take a look on the attached PNG. What is the circled button that I see there? You know, the one that EXPANDS the options in Ribbon? The thing that should NOT exist based on the design criteria? This is basically a RE-VAMPED menu structure for you, with the exception that this is actually WORSE. The expansion button is so small that it's harder to hit than the older text based menu. I actually couldn't find the button first time I needed it!

Add on top the fact that the Ribbon icon size is sort of fixed (I only need the text part, not the graphic icon to begin with - deciphering icons is harder than text). I would like to place much more buttons there, but can't! Because of that, I still can't orient the Ribbon vertically to take advantage of the nowadays wide display aspect ratios. And I've made my opinion known on the Microsoft side.



> Now your just speculating about Microsoft forcing anything on it's customers. You can still, and will always be able to, buy Office stand-alone. I did. I own a couple stand alone copies. I opted for that, instead of the much cheaper $99/yr Office Cloud standard edition. I prefer to store my data locally...but not everyone does. Some people, some corporations and smaller businesses, much prefer to offload the once-necessary costs and complexities of managing their own computer networks and systems onto a larger business entity that has more talented and effective resources for managing such things.



It could be. And I thought I made it clear this is speculation (though based on several snippets of facts). Getting back there, there's no similar legislation in place for data storage as there is for example book-keeping that small enterprises typically favor too, and data storage is actually much more sensitive area. In Europe, I don't think this would fly - you're simply considered stupid if you do this, until the legal standing is clear. Also add on top that Cloud servers that stay on US soil are suspect for US government actions at any second. This is not to say that your average worker cannot upload anything to Cloud, but he's responsible for the brunt if data loss happens.



> Cloud is Microsoft's strength. Their biggest competitor there is actually Amazon, and they are making headway, helping spur a competitive market in the cloud services business.



This doesn't make any sense. You're saying Microsoft's cloud is for the enterprise, but as far as I know, Amazon is for consumers. Which is it?



> The way app stores are run isn't really a Microsoft thing. Apple started that trend, and in many ways, it is essential to the protection of consumers. Just look into how many problems and security issues can and have occurred on the Android platform, with it's open app store, vs. how many of those kinds of issues occur on Apple or Microsoft devices. There needs to be some level of buffer, some small barrier to entry, to help weed out the apps that are designed by data and identity thieves for the purposes of data and identity theft, fraud, etc.



I agree with store safety with Android. But, you're saying app store isn't a Microsoft thing. I think here you'll need to look into the future and not in the past as you so readily advised me. Apple is the most profitable high-tech (HAH!) company on Earth, and it stands for a good reason Microsoft has an incentive to go the same way - and this includes orientation towards the consumer. So, the software companies building on Windows ecosystem can also predict that in the future their profit margin drops due to the Microsoft taking a larger share in the Microsoft Store. Which is fine, Microsoft can do whatever they want with their ecosystem and I suppose you get something back for the price, but I'm saying there will be consequences and market share erosion as not everybody will find the properties worth their money. As you are already seeing with the case of Valve. And I never said this had anything to do with Windows 8, but general Microsoft strategy.

FYI, I was actually supporting Windows against Linux when 7 was released. It's only now that 8 is released and Microsoft's strategy is clear, and it seems consistent UI changes are the norm, I'm considering switching to Linux in next computer update. Microsoft actually never made the jump easier.



> You have clearly never been part of a software development project, certainly not on any large-scale project that had a large installed base of users. You have to START somewhere.



I could argue this is actually even more important in R&D world. To START somewhere is well-known. However, it's important to listen to the feedback during the start too in my area, as the project gets axed if customer doesn't like it. In other words, exactly what Microsoft did NOT do with 8, and consequently patched in 8.1, but too late to save the name.


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## jrista (Jul 7, 2014)

Mika said:


> > As for Surface...Microsoft's future is dependent upon the entire Microsoft ecosystem being directly competitive with Apple products, specifically. To be quite blunt, Microsoft's hardware partners SUCK ASS. They NEEDED a big, fat, PAINFUL kick in the rear end to knock some sense into them. The mobile windows hardware market has been failing for years...products have gotten cheaper and cheaper, and the quality of those products has tanked right along with price and profit margin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is what is "considered", and there is what's actually happening. In terms of what's actually happening, Microsoft's entry into the tablet market has forced their competitors to become competitive. It was a stagnant market. The "cheap" products from Microsoft partners kept getting cheaper and cheaper, shoddier and shoddier, with price points down to a few hundred bucks. There was no quality, because the third-party product manufacturers had built their reputations on cheap and replaceable instead. That wasn't Microsoft's doing. 

With Surface now a competitor, and Microsoft primarily competing with the higher end Apple, vs. the ultra low end crap that used to be standard fare for Windows-based products, Microsoft is forcing their PARTNERS to step up their game, enter a higher quality realm that also brings with it the potential for higher profits (as clearly demonstrated by Apple's high profit margins with high quality parts.) Consumers expect, and demand, QUALITY products now...the Windows ecosystem was dying because Microsoft partners designed it to be a CHEAP products venue. Something had to be done about that, otherwise the Windows platform WOULD have died, probably a silent death that no one noticed because there was nothing worth buying.

BTW, Microsoft is NOT price undercutting their other competitors in the windows ecosystem...Microsoft's Surface line is actually fairly expensive, and price cuts have only been because they were NECESSARY in order to increase sales...for comparable hardware, there are many cheaper options than Microsoft's products. There are also even higher quality products from others, like Dell, that rival the value and cost of Apple products.

Is Microsoft's move into the market as a direct hardware player liked by their partners-become-competitors? No, surely not. However that doesn't change the fact that it was necessary. Without Microsoft FORCING their partners-become-competitors to actually BE COMPETITIVE, the entire market would have died. It was RACING towards death already, and racing towards it not really because Microsoft products suck...they don't...it was racing towards death because NONE of the Microsoft/Windows ecosystem products were even remotely competitive with THEIR PRIMARY COMPETITOR: Apple! 

I don't deny that Microsoft's move is unpopular and disliked. That doesn't change that it was utterly essential for Microsoft to FORCE their partners to step up their game, and drag themselves out of the muck of the ultra-cheap, ultra-low-quality crapware products they were making, into the higher level game that Apple plays. Apple is the focal point of the mobile computing industry, there is no question about that. Whether they deserve the reputation and respect they have or not, people do adore them and their products. Apple is the baseline...everything else has to be judged by that. A year ago, things still looked pretty bleak for the Windows ecosystem. Today? I just purchased a Dell XPS 15 that tops the specs of a MacBook Pro and Air combined, for less than two grand. It's a SOLIDLY built device that is just as beautiful as any Apple product, well built, blazing fast, fully touch capable. It's a wonderful product. And I HONESTLY do not believe it would have ever come into existence if Microsoft hadn't become a competitor in their own ecosystem. 

Sometimes popularity isn't what saves a company...sometimes making the toughest decision possible to spur competition and innovation, even when it's incredibly unpopular, is the right decision. (Just ask Ichan... )



Mika said:


> > The ribbon was a DIRECT response to years of customer feedback on the Office UI. People hated having to dig multiple levels deep within menu systems to find features in Word and Excel primarily. Microsoft designed the ribbon in an effort to solve that exact problem, based on explicit CUSTOMER feedback about the problems with their old Office design. Ribbon was a success in that it brought everything right to the surface, one level deep in a series of tabs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The little chevron your talking about only appears when the screen size or window size is too small to display the entire ribbon. It's an adaptive thing. There is a LOT of functionality in Microsoft products. Microsoft's options are either to drop functionality, which is 100% guaranteed to cause an uproar...or...find some way of making all the necessary tools available even on screens that are too small to display it all at once.

Try using office maximized on a larger screen. That little chevron your bitching about? It'll disappear...and the entire contents of the entire ribbon will show up on the screen.

Sorry, but I find your complaints about the ribbon just an angry dude finding a reason to be angry about something...



Mika said:


> > Now your just speculating about Microsoft forcing anything on it's customers. You can still, and will always be able to, buy Office stand-alone. I did. I own a couple stand alone copies. I opted for that, instead of the much cheaper $99/yr Office Cloud standard edition. I prefer to store my data locally...but not everyone does. Some people, some corporations and smaller businesses, much prefer to offload the once-necessary costs and complexities of managing their own computer networks and systems onto a larger business entity that has more talented and effective resources for managing such things.
> 
> 
> 
> It could be. And I thought I made it clear this is speculation (though based on several snippets of facts). Getting back there, there's no similar legislation in place for data storage as there is for example book-keeping that small enterprises typically favor too, and data storage is actually much more sensitive area. In Europe, I don't think this would fly - you're simply considered stupid if you do this, until the legal standing is clear. Also add on top that Cloud servers that stay on US soil are suspect for US government actions at any second. This is not to say that your average worker cannot upload anything to Cloud, but he's responsible for the brunt if data loss happens.



I'm very glad I don't live in Europe. The EU has demonstrated for decades that it has a fairly anti-business stance, and the penalties they have levied on large corporations are rather extreme at times. It's a punitive system, constantly punishing, punishing, punishing. I'm not really surprised you hold the opinions you do...I guess the actions of the EU make a lot more sense now...



Mika said:


> > Cloud is Microsoft's strength. Their biggest competitor there is actually Amazon, and they are making headway, helping spur a competitive market in the cloud services business.
> 
> 
> 
> This doesn't make any sense. You're saying Microsoft's cloud is for the enterprise, but as far as I know, Amazon is for consumers. Which is it?



You HAVE heard of the Amazon Cloud Services, right? Amazon is the world's largest online retailer. They couldn't be that if they hadn't developed the technology to support that kind of infrastucture. It was many years ago that Amazon started offering web services to access some of the technological infrastructure they had built, and today, they are the largest provider of core cloud services (i.e. big data, compute cycles, virtualized hosting, etc.) of anyone. Those services are used by enterprise businesses to host...pretty much anything. Even NetFlix is hosted on Amazon's cloud servers. 

Microsoft Azure directly competes with Amazon Cloud Services. Microsoft's Cloud Services (i.e. Office in the Cloud) directly competes with Google's web apps. Overall, Microsoft's cloud initiatives are gaining a lot of ground against their competitors. 



Mika said:


> > The way app stores are run isn't really a Microsoft thing. Apple started that trend, and in many ways, it is essential to the protection of consumers. Just look into how many problems and security issues can and have occurred on the Android platform, with it's open app store, vs. how many of those kinds of issues occur on Apple or Microsoft devices. There needs to be some level of buffer, some small barrier to entry, to help weed out the apps that are designed by data and identity thieves for the purposes of data and identity theft, fraud, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with store safety with Android. But, you're saying app store isn't a Microsoft thing. I think here you'll need to look into the future and not in the past as you so readily advised me. Apple is the most profitable high-tech (HAH!) company on Earth, and it stands for a good reason Microsoft has an incentive to go the same way - and this includes orientation towards the consumer. So, the software companies building on Windows ecosystem can also predict that in the future their profit margin drops due to the Microsoft taking a larger share in the Microsoft Store. Which is fine, Microsoft can do whatever they want with their ecosystem and I suppose you get something back for the price, but I'm saying there will be consequences and market share erosion as not everybody will find the properties worth their money. As you are already seeing with the case of Valve. And I never said this had anything to do with Windows 8, but general Microsoft strategy.



Valve was pissed that Microsoft wanted to take a small cut of all in-app sales. Again, that isn't a strategy that Microsoft pioneered...Apple already does that. Valve would have the same problem if they tried to create an app in the Apple store. 

As for cost, Microsoft takes the same amount as Apple. They always have. As a matter of fact, Microsoft often gives discounts for app developers, as an incentive, to get them onto the platform. Fundamentally, though, app developers on both platforms pay $99/yr to develop apps, and get 70% of the revenue from the sales. Both companies take 30%, which is then used to cover credit card transaction fees, infrastructural support fees, and the companies cut (which is less than 20% for both companies). 



Mika said:


> FYI, I was actually supporting Windows against Linux when 7 was released. It's only now that 8 is released and Microsoft's strategy is clear, and it seems consistent UI changes are the norm, I'm considering switching to Linux in next computer update. Microsoft actually never made the jump easier.



I'm not sure what is "consistent" about UI changes. The only two things that changed between 7 and 8 was the start menu...which became a start screen, and the use of ribbons in the core desktop apps (i.e. Explorer). People on Windows have been using ribbon for years now, so it isn't something new. I haven't heard much about that being a sticking point with potential upgraders, either...the biggest complaints are the start screen. But as you can see from other participants in this thread, the vast majority of the complaints about the start screen are entirely unfounded. 

Not to mention, if you really want a start menu...you can have it. There are free and cheap utilities to bring it back if that's something you REALLY REALLY want. It isn't enough to avoid upgrading, because everything else about Windows 8 has been improved over Windows 7.


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## Mika (Jul 11, 2014)

I might as well start with a general question that goes: "What is Microsoft's role in the future?" Formerly, their cash machine was enterprises and corporate customers, while gathering some from the consumers. However, given their strategy change to Services & Devices type company, it looks like they are going the Apple route to the consumers. The ground work for the taken route is more and more visible with more seamless integration of MS Store and social media integration to the UI. 

As a corporate user, though, I don't like this one bit. I don't want Skype, Twitter or FaceBook feeds on my desktop (or OS keeping the services running, taking my precious free CPU cycles). This is why I'm saying Microsoft should tread carefully on what they are about to do.

Now, on what it comes to genius of Microsoft being a competitor in their own ecosystem, the whole thing is not about what is today. It's about what it likely becomes. And there you get the risk of getting undercut by MS if you start to play that game. Given that yesteryear's GoPro could do 4K video in much smaller package than a laptop, I don't see the connection that MS boosted current laptops to be better. It's more reasonable to think that 4K processing power was coming along nevertheless.

The thing here is that MS decided to go to the upper tier stuff where their OEMs never HAD problems to compete with Apple. It's also happens to be their OEMs most profitable segment per manufactured device. You are comparing the consumer level stuff to Apple high-end laptops, but the reality is, Dell, Lenovo and HP all have had high quality laptops offered before Microsoft even tried to enter the area, and they did not have that much difficulties to compete with Apple. 

Additional question is, why is the cheap consumer level stuff then staying at "low quality", and the market never gave it a kick to improve? The answer is, there's a market for cheap devices despite their limitations. This doesn't concern the upper tier so much, but when somebody wanted an upper tier laptop [~2000-3000 €], the customer was not typically a consumer, but an enterprise. Enterprises then could get bulk discounts. Well, at least here.



> The little chevron your talking about only appears when the screen size or window size is too small to display the entire ribbon. It's an adaptive thing. There is a LOT of functionality in Microsoft products. Microsoft's options are either to drop functionality, which is 100% guaranteed to cause an uproar...or...find some way of making all the necessary tools available even on screens that are too small to display it all at once.
> 
> Try using office maximized on a larger screen. That little chevron your bitching about? It'll disappear...and the entire contents of the entire ribbon will show up on the screen.
> 
> Sorry, but I find your complaints about the ribbon just an angry dude finding a reason to be angry about something...



Great. Tell optical designer to get a bigger screen! Ever seen how many graphs are useful to keep a look on when doing optical design? They take quite a bit of screen estate... And the only functional way to use Office is to use it full screen, as I did when my attention was paid to those chevrons. The point was, this is nothing but a revamped menu-structure with same amount of hoops as before, but less amount of customization. And the reason I'm angry about this, that's called loss of productivity. 

Office STILL hasn't a functional equation editor (Open Office did this years ago), still no useful greek alphabet shortcuts like ALT GR+M for micro, and STILL worse image positioning options than in 2006 version of OpenOffice. For the good sides of Office 2010, it did add better graphics presentation options and streamlined doing graphs. Those were good changes and I liked them a lot - and got frustrated by not being able to use them to maximum extend due to UI.



> I'm very glad I don't live in Europe. The EU has demonstrated for decades that it has a fairly anti-business stance, and the penalties they have levied on large corporations are rather extreme at times. It's a punitive system, constantly punishing, punishing, punishing. I'm not really surprised you hold the opinions you do...I guess the actions of the EU make a lot more sense now...



Making a value judgment of somebody's culture is definitely a way to make friends in international business. Sarcasm aside, if you don't know why something is in place, it usually pays to check the circumstances why that is so before doing anything else. Case in point: the privacy requirements do NOT stem from the EU governance, but from the citizens and enterprises themselves. For the question why WE THE PEOPLE in EU are sensitive with respect to that sort of stuff, I think it's better you figure it out yourself.



> You HAVE heard of the Amazon Cloud Services, right? Amazon is the world's largest online retailer. They couldn't be that if they hadn't developed the technology to support that kind of infrastucture. It was many years ago that Amazon started offering web services to access some of the technological infrastructure they had built, and today, they are the largest provider of core cloud services (i.e. big data, compute cycles, virtualized hosting, etc.) of anyone. Those services are used by enterprise businesses to host...pretty much anything. Even NetFlix is hosted on Amazon's cloud servers.
> 
> Microsoft Azure directly competes with Amazon Cloud Services. Microsoft's Cloud Services (i.e. Office in the Cloud) directly competes with Google's web apps. Overall, Microsoft's cloud initiatives are gaining a lot of ground against their competitors.



Nobody in the corporate world that I know of uses the listed Amazon's or Microsoft's corporate cloud services in EU, or in Japan as far as my experience goes. I believe it works for the US as the companies are subject to the same federal law, forming a general framework around them. Since there is no general groundwork law, you're simply stupid to upload data somewhere that you cannot fully control - again, here. The only reason I had to start using Hangout is because I happen to work also with US companies, and that is the best option for them. Is it my preferred venue of remote conferencing? Not by a long shot.



> Valve was pissed that Microsoft wanted to take a small cut of all in-app sales. Again, that isn't a strategy that Microsoft pioneered...Apple already does that. Valve would have the same problem if they tried to create an app in the Apple store.
> 
> As for cost, Microsoft takes the same amount as Apple. They always have. As a matter of fact, Microsoft often gives discounts for app developers, as an incentive, to get them onto the platform. Fundamentally, though, app developers on both platforms pay $99/yr to develop apps, and get 70% of the revenue from the sales. Both companies take 30%, which is then used to cover credit card transaction fees, infrastructural support fees, and the companies cut (which is less than 20% for both companies).



Understandably Valve wants to avoid giving cuts from Steam ecosystem. But that's the point: there's other developers that feel the same. Are you seriously trying to downplay the 30 % increase in costs? It's not a small margin and I would expect to get something for the money. Of course, if this is for low cost apps (and I mean the small ones) you may have a point. 

However, the future is more disturbing, as it is likely MS is going and try to extend their cut to EVERY SOFTWARE running in their ecosystem, leading to 30 % increase of costs for all softwares - even those that do not benefit from Cloud integration. And unlike with Apple, this surely wasn't part of the deal before, which is why I see developers being rather wary about moves to that direction.



> I'm not sure what is "consistent" about UI changes. The only two things that changed between 7 and 8 was the start menu...which became a start screen, and the use of ribbons in the core desktop apps (i.e. Explorer). People on Windows have been using ribbon for years now, so it isn't something new. I haven't heard much about that being a sticking point with potential upgraders, either...the biggest complaints are the start screen. But as you can see from other participants in this thread, the vast majority of the complaints about the start screen are entirely unfounded.
> 
> Not to mention, if you really want a start menu...you can have it. There are free and cheap utilities to bring it back if that's something you REALLY REALLY want. It isn't enough to avoid upgrading, because everything else about Windows 8 has been improved over Windows 7.



Re-read what I said. 


> It's only now that 8 is released and Microsoft's strategy is clear, and it seems consistent UI changes are the norm, I'm considering switching to Linux in next computer update. Microsoft actually never made the jump easier.


= Because Microsoft's strategy is going towards Devices and Services, several things can be predicted straight from that. And I don't like what I'm seeing (and that's just me). Coincidentally, because Microsoft keeps on shuffling the UI, requiring me to constantly learn it again, I might make a bigger jump and learn a completely different OS. They never made it easier as UI re-learning is nevertheless ahead. This applies to both home and work.


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