# Shutter shock on the R7



## AlanF (Aug 1, 2022)

There is discussion in various forums about shutter shock with Electronic First Curtain Shutter (EFCS) with the R7. I have been following this and have done careful tests of my own with charts and would like to sum up the situation. Shutter shock can occur when any shutter is opened mechanically and it causes a vibration, independent of whether the camera is mirrorless or a conventional DSLR, unlike mirror slap that can't occur for mirrorless. EFCS is designed to avoid this as the shutter opens electronically and closes mechanically, after exposure. But, it has been noted with the R7 in its high speed 15 fps drive for EFCS that the first shot is fine but that there is shutter shock for the subsequent shots. This appears to be because the shock of closing can vibrate the following shot. This doesn't happen for all lenses, the adapted EF 100-400mm II, for example, has been reported to be immune.

I have tested the RF 100-400mm, RF 100-500mm and RF 800mm f/11. In H+ mode of 15 fps with EFCS and mechanical shutter, there is noticeable shutter shock at lower shutter speeds that is nearly gone by 1/250s and completely absent at 1/400s. Electronic shutter has zero shutter shock as expected. In the H mode of 8 fps for EFCS, I couldn't see shutter shock at 1/60 s.

So the take home message is: avoid H+ mode for EFCS at /250s or slower and all mechanical modes at 1/250s or slower. Also, the R7 does have bad rolling shutter with ES, so avoid that when wings are flapping fast or panning fast against vertical lines. But, the R7 has a good variety of drive modes, the H+ mode is 30 fps for ES and 15 fps for MS and EFCS, the H is 15fps for ES, 8 for EFCS and 6.5 for for MS, and low continuous is 3 fps for all three modes, and so we have lots of choice for different situations. I leave the camera in low speed continuous ES for static shots, H+ ES for BIF and H+ EFCS for insects in flight etc where rolling shutter can be a disaster.


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## Czardoom (Aug 1, 2022)

Thanks Alan! Your observations and tests are always very valuable to combat the hysteria that can often result on the internet!


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## Del Paso (Aug 1, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> Thanks Alan! Your observations and tests are always very valuable to combat the hysteria that can often result on the internet!


Well said!


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 1, 2022)

The internet is right to be hysterical over this issue. It's (sh)UTTERLY SHOCKING that Canon would release a camera with this problem.


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## dcm (Aug 1, 2022)

AlanF said:


> ...
> 
> So the take home message is: avoid H+ mode for EFCS at /250s or slower and all mechanical modes at 1/250s or slower. Also, the R7 does have bad rolling shutter with ES, so avoid that when wings are flapping fast or panning fast against vertical lines. But, the R7 has a good variety of drive modes, the H+ mode is 30 fps for ES and 15 fps for MS and EFCS, the H is 15fps for ES, 8 for EFCS and 6.5 for for MS, and low continuous is 3 fps for all three modes, and so we have lots of choice for different situations. I leave the camera in low speed continuous ES for static shots, H+ ES for BIF and H+ EFCS for insects in flight etc where rolling shutter can be a disaster.



The results sound similar to the EOS M shutter shock issues we discussed some time back, but with an added wrinkle for the high speed shutter. I particularly like your final recommendations for drive modes based on shutter mode. 

It kind of begs the question - do similar things happen on the R5 or R6? Or is it strictly an issue for the crop bodies with less mass like the M series and R7/R10 and lighter lenses?


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## koenkooi (Aug 2, 2022)

dcm said:


> The results sound similar to the EOS M shutter shock issues we discussed some time back, but with an added wrinkle for the high speed shutter. I particularly like your final recommendations for drive modes based on shutter mode.
> 
> It kind of begs the question - do similar things happen on the R5 or R6? Or is it strictly an issue for the crop bodies with less mass like the M series and R7/R10 and lighter lenses?


I can see shutter shock on my R5 as well, even with EFCS, but it's not as dramatic compared to an M6II (no EFCS) and also less compared to an R. But I'm mostly using electronic shutter on my R5 or EFCS + flash at 1/250th, which are both safe.

On the R5 with EFCS I have a hard time deciding if it's me or shuttershock when the resulting picture is a bit blurry


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## AlanF (Aug 2, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> I can see shutter shock on my R5 as well, even with EFCS, but it's not as dramatic compared to an M6II (no EFCS) and also less compared to an R. But I'm mostly using electronic shutter on my R5 or EFCS + flash at 1/250th, which are both safe.
> 
> On the R5 with EFCS I have a hard time deciding if it's me or shuttershock when the resulting picture is a bit blurry


If the R5 had a range of fps in ES 20 like the R7 I would probably use it just about all the time. The fixed 20 fps on the R5 is a real negative. I think Nikon got it right by having only ES on the Z9, a bit like Apple getting rid of internal floppy disk drives from their laptops in 1998. However, we'll need R3 level stacked sensors on the R5 and R7 successors for that.


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## Del Paso (Aug 2, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> I can see shutter shock on my R5 as well, even with EFCS, but it's not as dramatic compared to an M6II (no EFCS) and also less compared to an R. But I'm mostly using electronic shutter on my R5 or EFCS + flash at 1/250th, which are both safe.
> 
> On the R5 with EFCS I have a hard time deciding if it's me or shuttershock when the resulting picture is a bit blurry


Mirrorless-life is getting increasingly complicated...gimme my Leicaflex SL or Nikon F2 back!


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## AlanF (Aug 2, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> Mirrorless-life is getting increasingly complicated...gimme my Leicaflex SL or Nikon F2 back!


Shuttershock/mirror slap on my Nikon D850 and D500 were so bad that I'd try and shoot at 1/1000s or faster. There was shock-slap on all of my Canon bodies at low shutter speeds, even with the 5DSR in its quieter mode. Mind you, I used to enjoy getting the AFMA spot on and was very quick at it!


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## Sporgon (Aug 2, 2022)

Shutter shock seems to have become an issue when cameras with focal plane shutters moved from silk horizontally running shutters to vertical metal ones, so around mid ‘70s. The metal vertical shutters allowed for faster flash sync due to the reduced travel distance compared with horizontal, and it’s interesting that the ‘professional’ models of the time (think Nikon F2/3, Canon F1) stayed with horizontal despite the handicap of a much slower flash sync speed. I don’t ever remember discussions of shutter shock, the general belief was always that the mirror was the culprit, but in hind sight it’s quite clear to me now that the metal shutters were the actual problem, the mirror, at least on a quality camera, was secondary. Looking back on my old images, those taken on my F3 (silk horizontal shutter) were generally sharper than those taken on my FM (early metal vertical shutter). It’s taken me forty years to discover the reason. So shutter shock isn’t a problem that’s just become noticeable with high res digital.


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## becceric (Aug 3, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> Mirrorless-life is getting increasingly complicated...gimme my Leicaflex SL or Nikon F2 back!


I wish my old Konicas had the opportunity for this kind of shutter shock. Their Copal shutters would randomly have the curtains reopen while advancing the film. That ruined several (hopefully) great photos.


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## Sporgon (Aug 3, 2022)

becceric said:


> I wish my old Konicas had the opportunity for this kind of shutter shock. Their Copal shutters would randomly have the curtains reopen while advancing the film. That ruined several (hopefully) great photos.


This was Konica’s way of reminding you that you hadn’t stumped up the cash for a Nikon


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## Del Paso (Aug 3, 2022)

Sporgon said:


> This was Konica’s way of reminding you that you hadn’t stumped up the cash for a Nikon


And Konica merged with Minolta, then Konica-Minolta were taken over by sony. So, the horror is complete!


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## becceric (Aug 4, 2022)

Sporgon said:


> This was Konica’s way of reminding you that you hadn’t stumped up the cash for a Nikon


Yep. Konica had a way of tapping me on the shoulder about that. Even with the newer FS-1 (built-in auto winder!) they left a small strip of unpainted metal at the bottom of the shutter housing. That caused a very specific horizontal line of flare on film. I painted it black myself.


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## becceric (Aug 4, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> And Konica merged with Minolta, then Konica-Minolta were taken over by sony. So, the horror is complete!


Shh! I still get nightmares!


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## LSXPhotog (Aug 9, 2022)

I can tell you right now, the R7 is great for beginners, amateurs, and enthusiasts - and is priced accordingly. But I find the camera to be far too flawed and deliberately limited to keep it in my bag. It's one of the most frustrating cameras I have ever used. The shutter shock is horrible. Canon releasing a mechanical shutter this bad is embarrassing, considering that Fujifilm matches the 15fps and sounds whisper quiet. Don't even get me started on the rolling shutter...

I am a HUGE Canon user, but I really love my Fujifilm gear that I use for recreational photography. I've seen far too many people claim the R7 is an X-T4 slayer and that couldn't be further from the truth. The X-T4 and the X-S10 are superior in every way you can imagine.


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## AlanF (Aug 9, 2022)

LSXPhotog said:


> I can tell you right now, the R7 is great for beginners, amateurs, and enthusiasts - and is priced accordingly. But I find the camera to be far too flawed and deliberately limited to keep it in my bag. It's one of the most frustrating cameras I have ever used. The shutter shock is horrible. Canon releasing a mechanical shutter this bad is embarrassing, considering that Fujifilm matches the 15fps and sounds whisper quiet. Don't even get me started on the rolling shutter...
> 
> I am a HUGE Canon user, but I really love my Fujifilm gear that I use for recreational photography. I've seen far too many people claim the R7 is an X-T4 slayer and that couldn't be further from the truth. The X-T4 and the X-S10 are superior in every way you can imagine.


Use it within its limitations and it's great, maybe not for you, though. The shutter shock is not a problem as you can choose electronic shutter for low speeds, and the level of detail it gets for long range nature shots beats the pants off any other mirrorless - I got shots with it this week combined with the RF800 f/11 (posted in https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/threads/ye-bee-eaters-of-merrie-england.41632/) that would have required an R3 with an RF 1200mm f/8. OK, that's not your thing for real estate, commercial and motor sports. As for "The X-T4 and the X-S10 are superior in every way you can imagine", they don't have animal eyeAF, the AF of the R7, its pixel density or the Canon range of telephoto lenses.


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## josephandrews222 (Aug 10, 2022)

LSXPhotog said:


> I can tell you right now, the R7 is great for beginners, amateurs, and enthusiasts - and is priced accordingly. But I find the camera to be far too flawed and deliberately limited to keep it in my bag. It's one of the most frustrating cameras I have ever used. The shutter shock is horrible. Canon releasing a mechanical shutter this bad is embarrassing, considering that Fujifilm matches the 15fps and sounds whisper quiet. Don't even get me started on the rolling shutter...
> 
> I am a HUGE Canon user, but I really love my Fujifilm gear that I use for recreational photography. I've seen far too many people claim the R7 is an X-T4 slayer and that couldn't be further from the truth. The X-T4 and the X-S10 are superior in every way you can imagine.


LSX: Your photos speak for themselves; generally speaking they are something I can aspire to.

I think I paid attention to some of your previous posts on CR a few weeks/months ago that dealt with this general topic (your jones for Fujifilm gear)...and poked around the usual places on the 'net for news, view and reviews about Fujifilm gear: there's an army of you folks out there! Some of whom are quite passionate about rejecting Nikon/Canon and forging their own path gear-wise...

I get that. I checked on prices then...and now I've checked prices again--your recreational Fuji gear list comes to $8.5K + tax at a major NYC retailer.

For the 'small-and-light' system, I chose Canon's M format about a decade ago...and I've never looked back (yikes!).

For sure, what I know is there's been a lot of value in various Ms and various EF-M lenses...and there still is. Sometimes I think that a primary reason that Canon appears to be doing away with (at least) the higher-end Ms...is that they can charge more for more-or-less-the-same electronics stuffed inside a full-sized R mount camera...shrink the sensor size...and call it entry level R. The M gear was always reasonably priced.

So while there was a significant Fujifilm price premium (vs M etc)...that premium has diminished in size with the introduction of everything R.

Maybe next time I'll look at Fuji again for small-and-light (and weathersealed)


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## LSXPhotog (Aug 11, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Use it within its limitations and it's great, maybe not for you, though. The shutter shock is not a problem as you can choose electronic shutter for low speeds, and the level of detail it gets for long range nature shots beats the pants off any other mirrorless - I got shots with it this week combined with the RF800 f/11 (posted in https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/threads/ye-bee-eaters-of-merrie-england.41632/) that would have required an R3 with an RF 1200mm f/8. OK, that's not your thing for real estate, commercial and motor sports. As for "The X-T4 and the X-S10 are superior in every way you can imagine", they don't have animal eyeAF, the AF of the R7, its pixel density or the Canon range of telephoto lenses.


You are absolutely correct. I was totally wrong in my statement there because the Canon autofocus is in an entirely different playing field and it's my deepest criticism for Fuji as a whole. I'm personally very disappointed that Canon didn't spend a little more R&D money to develop a new sensor with a faster read out speed that could at least put it on par with the likes of the X-T4's BSI sensor from 2019. The new X-H2S has a substantial improvement in AF performance, but it's still not as user friendly or customizable as what you get with Canon.

We were provided a small camera with questionable ergonomic changes, no option for a battery grip, one less control dial, a slow sensor readout, and a clunky mechanical shutter experience. It would have been my dream to see an R6/R5 body with a new high-resolution APS-C sensor that could join the fleet. But now that I have it, I'm torn by the excellent images I've gotten, as well as the incredible frustrations I've had with it in the field. I would love to keep the camera just for the fact it shoots better video than my R6, but I still don't know what to do.


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## LSXPhotog (Aug 11, 2022)

josephandrews222 said:


> LSX: Your photos speak for themselves; generally speaking they are something I can aspire to.
> 
> I think I paid attention to some of your previous posts on CR a few weeks/months ago that dealt with this general topic (your jones for Fujifilm gear)...and poked around the usual places on the 'net for news, view and reviews about Fujifilm gear: there's an army of you folks out there! Some of whom are quite passionate about rejecting Nikon/Canon and forging their own path gear-wise...
> 
> ...


Thank you very much. Yeah, some of the Fuji loyalists are...interesting. I love the cameras, but I can very clearly acknowledge their shortcoming and, as you identified, high price. They price themselves in between typical APS-C and full-frame...so it was very difficult to even make the jump. My wife helped facilitate the switch as a birthday by getting me an X-E4 kit. At that point I began to sell off all my EOS-M stuff that I had accumulated since the launch of the M5 and was able to fund the jump into Fujifilm that way. 

But, as I feared, it became a quest to build the perfect camera kit - which I believe I have done now. Mind you, I only bought the X-T30II new by selling the X-E4 and all but 2 lenses were purchased used through Facebook marketplace, MPB, or KEH. The X-T4 was used at a good price and the X-100V I found in my city for a total STEAL of a deal (its my most used Fuji camera and I never leave it at home) My current plan is to streamline the Fuji kit because I have more than I originally set out for. But keep in mind that I'm a total loser that does nothing but capture and edit photos and I consider it a vacation from my job as a photographer to travel with my wife and dog to capture and edit more photos. LOL


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## josephandrews222 (Aug 28, 2022)

LSXPhotog said:


> Thank you very much. Yeah, some of the Fuji loyalists are...interesting. I love the cameras, but I can very clearly acknowledge their shortcoming and, as you identified, high price. They price themselves in between typical APS-C and full-frame...so it was very difficult to even make the jump. My wife helped facilitate the switch as a birthday by getting me an X-E4 kit. At that point I began to sell off all my EOS-M stuff that I had accumulated since the launch of the M5 and was able to fund the jump into Fujifilm that way.
> 
> But, as I feared, it became a quest to build the perfect camera kit - which I believe I have done now. Mind you, I only bought the X-T30II new by selling the X-E4 and all but 2 lenses were purchased used through Facebook marketplace, MPB, or KEH. The X-T4 was used at a good price and the X-100V I found in my city for a total STEAL of a deal (its my most used Fuji camera and I never leave it at home) My current plan is to streamline the Fuji kit because I have more than I originally set out for. But keep in mind that I'm a total loser that does nothing but capture and edit photos and I consider it a vacation from my job as a photographer to travel with my wife and dog to capture and edit more photos. LOL


As I read this: https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilm-x-h2s-review

I read every word...wow!...will you be getting one of these?

...seems like a spectacular camera.


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## LSXPhotog (Aug 29, 2022)

josephandrews222 said:


> As I read this: https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilm-x-h2s-review
> 
> I read every word...wow!...will you be getting one of these?
> 
> ...seems like a spectacular camera.


Actually, I've had one to test out since the start of the month. I didn't bring it on my previous work trip from the 17th-23rd (brought the R7), but I brought it on this trip from the 25th-29th where I was shooting drag racing. I used it rather extensively and had an excellent time with the camera. As strange as this is to say, its automobile detection is much better than the R3. These are race cars I'm shooting that don't exactly look "normal" and the Fuji never had any trouble understanding what was and wasn't a car - *correction*** it _would_ randomly find a car in strange places like someone's feet, but if there was a car in the frame it knew it was a car. Comparing it to the R3, the Canon has always struggled to identify some of the race cars I shoot. To the point where car detection is something I use very seldom because I still prefer to focus on the car myself with the AF point and track it unless I want to exploit it for purposes of creative framing. I also find that the R3 will often focus on the wrong area of the car like the top of the windshield instead of the front of the car. So I just don't use it unless - like I said - I use it to put the car in a different area to frame the shot.

MAJOR con to the X-HS2 are its file sizes. There are 3 types of RAW compressions to choose from: Uncompressed, Lossless Compressed, and Compressed. ALL of these are way too large to shoot with for long periods of time. Uncompressed RAW files are north of 58MB, Lossless is 26-32MB, and the smallest Compressed around 17-21MB. These are far too large and the Compressed setting has a very big drop in file quality that makes it useless to shoot in if you are intending to utilize RAW. Contrast this with the Canon R3 in CRAW which runs around 8-12MB per file and are very good RAW files if you're not going crazy pushing shadow details. These Fuji RAW file sizes make it unmanageable for large scale photography like shooting a race from 8am-9pm for three or four days straight. For example (and this is shocking, really) yesterday I shot 2,787 images on the R3 in CRAW for a total capacity of 29.15GB. I only shot 773 images with the X-HS2 in Lossless Compressed RAW for a total capacity of 22.19GB. This is a BIG deal and is one of the reasons I believe the R3 is simply the best motorsports camera ever created. LOL

VIDEO: The X-HS2 video is great quality...but the IBIS is very jerky when panning with a car and that's pretty unfortunate. Oh and the autofocus just does what it wants in this mode...so good luck. LOL

I'm not sure what I'm going to do about the X-HS2 with the regular X-HS on the horizon next week (fingers crossed for an X-T5). What I can say is that this camera has horrible ergonomics, bad dial customization (the rear dial is 100% useless in manual mode with the current firmware...and I mean 100% useless. It can only be assigned to control aperture which is already on the lens (so totally a useless dial) and it will only control ISO if you press the ISO button first and it absolutely can't be used to control exposure compensation in manual mode if you're using Auto ISO...a horrible *HORRIBLE* decision by Fujifilm that makes the camera less usable as a professional tool. This could be fixed in firmware, but as it stands right now, it's hilarious to already have just 2 dials and then when you're shooting manual mode you only have 1 dial when that's when you really need MORE dials.

The entire reason I started shooting Fuij to begin with was because they were fun to shoot and I didn't think this was a "fun" camera to shoot with. It was just a very good and extremely capable camera to shoot with. The sensor is very good, the video is terrific, and for $2500 is can keep up with the R3 in almost every way. _ALMOST_ every way. But very poor ergonomic choices and lack of AF control options hold it back to what look like a small amount on paper, when its actually a substantial amount in the real world. This is a monstrously superior camera to the Canon R7 and it only upsets me more knowing that Canon could have created something just like it and I would be very happy...instead we go the slow sensor readout and crappy mechanical shutter.


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## tron (Oct 26, 2022)

becceric said:


> I wish my old Konicas had the opportunity for this kind of shutter shock. Their Copal shutters would randomly have the curtains reopen while advancing the film. That ruined several (hopefully) great photos.


Whaaat? My Konica Autoreflex TC never had a problem. I had it with the 40mm 1.8 and later got a Sigma (80-200 or 70-200 I do not remember). But when I lost the zoom (It seems I dropped its bag and - I was told - an old lady had taken it and run) a friend in work suggested Canon. That year it was thinking about T90 but then the EOS series has been introduced and I got EOS 620 with 35-105 and 100-300. I do not know if I have to thank that old lady. Also, I wonder what she did with a Sigma zoom with Konica mount!!!


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## becceric (Oct 27, 2022)

tron said:


> Whaaat? My Konica Autoreflex TC never had a problem. I had it with the 40mm 1.8 and later got a Sigma (80-200 or 70-200 I do not remember). But when I lost the zoom (It seems I dropped its bag and - I was told - an old lady had taken it and run) a friend in work suggested Canon. That year it was thinking about T90 but then the EOS series has been introduced and I got EOS 620 with 35-105 and 100-300. I do not know if I have to thank that old lady. Also, I wonder what she did with a Sigma zoom with Konica mount!!!


I would definitely thank that old lady.
I had a T3n and a T4 that both had the copal shutter issue. Once Konica went with the built-in “motor drive” (their term for the 1 fps), that issue disappeared. But another issue came about with my FS-1. A piece of reflective metal at the bottom of the shutter caused a band of flare on film. I painted over this on both the FS-1 and FT-1. That solved the issue.

Both of my Konica mount Sigma lenses had a small wheel that traveled while stopping down. This wheel rode on an arced ridge. This ridge had a curved “drop off”. Eventually the wheel would bind up at this point, causing the aperture to not fully close. I therefore swore off Sigma lenses, but always enjoyed my Hexanon 40mm 1.8. I wish Canon’s pancake lenses were f1.8 also.


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