# Upgrade to 70d or 760 d ?



## troy19 (Feb 10, 2015)

Hi all,

My old 400d needs to be upgraded, so I had a look at the 70d and the new 760d. Comparing the specs, there's little difference between those two - at least to me.

One concern though is AFMA, which is only available at the 70d and absent on the 760d. So do you really need AFMA? Does it make focussing more reliable, especially with fast lenses f 1:1.4? I prefer to work with autofocus instead of manual focus. Can Sigma lenses be AFMAed as well as Canon lenses?

The other point is weather sealing, which seams to be at the 70d but not on 760d. But if WS is only basic at the 70d, this point isn't so important. How ist weather sealing on the 70d? Any damage because of rain/dust?

Batteries are also different: 70d gets 920 shots, 760d only 440 shots. But that's not important to me as I will use an additinal grip anyway because I feel more comfortable with an extra grip.

Another option would be to wait for the 80d as I'm in no hurry.

What do you think?


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## Marsu42 (Feb 10, 2015)

troy19 said:


> One concern though is AFMA, which is only available at the 70d and absent on the 760d. So do you really need AFMA?



With medium-fast lenses (f2.8 and slower): No, you don't - but you have to make sure the lens matches the camera either on purchase or have it adjusted with Canon if it's way off.



troy19 said:


> Does it make focussing more reliable, especially with fast lenses f 1:1.4? I prefer to work with autofocus instead of manual focus.



Oh my, afma seems to be the most mis-understood issue on the planet (next to women, that is). Afma simply adds or substracts a bit of focus from the point the camera intended to focus on. It makes af more reliable as in "accurate", but not more "precise":










troy19 said:


> Can Sigma lenses be AFMAed as well as Canon lenses?



Newer Sigma are better, they can be adjusted independently with the usb dock.



troy19 said:


> One concThe other point is weather sealing, which seams to be at the 70d but not on 760d. But if WS is only basic at the 70d, this point isn't so important. How ist weather sealing on the 70d? Any damage because of rain/dust?



No camera bodies below 1dx or 7d2 are really reliably sealed, it's still a gamble and you need to use other means of cover. If you really plan to shoot outdoors a lot (rain, near the ground) get such a sealed camera and L lenses. Or a Pentax.



troy19 said:


> Another option would be to wait for the 80d as I'm in no hurry.



With cameras as excellent as the current generation, imho there's no reason to wait unless you need 4k video or whatever. Btw the main reason for getting the 70d is ergonomy (bigger camera body/grip, button layout).


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 10, 2015)

I'd avoid a camera without AFMA if you plan to use faster lenses, or if you want the absolute sharpest image. AF inaccuracy gets lost in depth of field with small apertures, but its still not optimal.


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## eninja (Feb 11, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Oh my, afma seems to be the most mis-understood issue on the planet (next to women, that is). Afma simply adds or substracts a bit of focus from the point the camera intended to focus on. It makes af more reliable as in "accurate", but not more "precise":



Hi Marsu42,

If afma makes af more accurate, how can we improve precision? is it inherent with the lens and can not be fix? 
is there a measure the describes lens precision range?

I got a 50mm 1.2L, so I was wondering how precise it is, and if it is according to standard for 50mm 1.2L.

thanks.


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## troy19 (Feb 11, 2015)

Thanks Marsu,

so I learned that AFMA can really help getting better focus. I just have to find "precise" fast lenses, which are getting an AFMA-Correction if needed. With little dof AF has to be spot on, else the pic is worthless 

And no, I won't get a 7DII or a 1DX just because of weather sealing  I better avoid bad weather or use a cover.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 11, 2015)

eninja said:


> If afma makes af more accurate, how can we improve precision?



Buy a better camera body (like the 5d3/1dx af system) and couple it with the newest lenses that have enhanced precison vs. older L versions, that's for example the 24-70L2. Top-notch af precision is expensive (Canon makes sure of that), another reason you need a good af system is that you have to prevent focus & recompose errors by af'ing right on the spot.



troy19 said:


> And no, I won't get a 7DII or a 1DX just because of weather sealing  I better avoid bad weather or use a cover.



Smart move, you can get a lot of disposable Rebels for one 1dx  ... just don't underestimate how quickly you can wreck a (un/less-)sealed camera with a couple of rain drops on the wrong spots.


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## troy19 (Feb 11, 2015)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I'd avoid a camera without AFMA if you plan to use faster lenses, or if you want the absolute sharpest image. AF inaccuracy gets lost in depth of field with small apertures, but its still not optimal.



Yes I do plan to invest in fast glass, so af has to be nailed. One question though: my 400d has no live mode so I'm not used to this feature. I guess afma is not needed/not available when shooting in live mode because focus is spot on anyway? live mode af is just slower, right?


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## Marsu42 (Feb 11, 2015)

troy19 said:


> live mode af is just slower, right?



Correct, even though even contrast af isn't 100% spot-on all the time.


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## JohanCruyff (Feb 11, 2015)

I recently realized that I took 10,000 pictures in 2011-2012 with my 5D classic, and just 5,000 in 2013-2014.
Why? Maybe because my second body, the M, has made me a bit lazy. Consequently, I think I could _down_grade from a 5D to a 70D to get a ligher body (and lighter lenses). I'm definitely not a "Pro" or a "_Pro-looking-wannabe_".

Even if the 760D is smaller and lighter, I'm not taking it into consideration: I think a 70D plus a pankake can be discrete and light enough.


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## Rockets95 (Feb 11, 2015)

I see the 760D does not appear to have a back focus button. For me, it would be hard to give that up.


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## SPKoko (Feb 11, 2015)

Unless you only plan to use slow zooms (f3.5/f4/f.4.5/f5.6) AFMA is really a must! Do yourself a favour and do not buy a camera without AFMA


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## troy19 (Feb 13, 2015)

Thanks all,

afma seems to be the critical point, so I'm glad that I asked (and that you answered).

So decision is made to rent the 70d along with fast lenses (35/50mm f1,4 Art or L) next month (my daughter's birthday party). There will be a lot fast moving girls and a big challenge for the body-lens-combination


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## Tinky (Feb 13, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Buy a better camera body (like the 5d3/1dx af system) and couple it with the newest lenses that have enhanced precison vs. older L versions, that's for example the 24-70L2. Top-notch af precision is expensive (Canon makes sure of that), another reason you need a good af system is that you have to prevent focus & recompose errors by af'ing right on the spot.



hi Marsu, 

I know that the above answer is factually correct, but given the op is talking about a 760/70 type budget... it just reads to me as a bit, I don't know, I hasten to use the word because you've always been bang on with me, and been very helpful with regards to ML etc, but... just a bit patronising?

to the OP..

I made the upgrade from the 400d a few years back, I would say go for the 70d, for few couple of reasons...

1. build
2. ergonomics
3. intermediate ISOs
4. Penta-prism (EDIT. Meant to avoid the penta-mirror on the rebel)

The ovf is still going to give you the best af, compared between even the latest live view and ovf, all these other issues such as afma fade a little.

The 19 cross point system is going to be a revelation coming from the 400d that it seems a shame not to get the best out of it...

I would also recommend changing the way you use af. 

I got some decent shots with my 400d by working to it's strengths, so that is selecting the centre point only, using ai servo and burst mode, tracking my subject, track, track, short burst, track, track short burst.

I used the centre point because it was the only cross point on the 400, on either the 760 or 70 you have 19 cross points to chose from, which opens up composition options.

Choice of lens is pivotal too. Very fast lenses combined with more telephoto lengths are going to give you a double whammy of depth of field issues.

The range of stm lenses are fairly limited just now, and whilst these are best for live view, usm lenses will work too, and will often be faster in ovf mode.

For a kids party I would go 50mm f1.4 or 35mm f2.0, the wider being innately more forgiving in terms of depth of field. I also find that a prime lens just lets you get on with shooting, it's one less parameter, you zoom with your feet and so get a nicer mix of perspectives, less fiddling, more shooting.

And I wouldn't use either wide open, maybe at f2.8. Shoot RAW, shoot at up to 1600 with confidence. Push the luma NR slider a little at the raw conversion stage.

The other thing you haven't mentioned, which I think for this kind of scenario is... wireless TTL flash, or even just a bounced flash.

Adding a flash will let you use faster shutters, smaller apertures, lower isos, or a combination of each. Direct flash is intrusive, bounced flash more natural. Wireless bounced flash maybe more ergonomically friendly, something like a used 420ex or earlier 430ex will be cheap, slavable, and can sit on a sideboard on its wee stand flashing up at the ceiling as you work the room.

Wider angle + flash = slightly smaller aperture + slightly faster shutter + slightly lower isos

All without resorting to a 1dx.

Focus inaccuracies do exist, but at very wide apertures depth of field is so shallow that difference between breathing in or holding your breath can kill a shot. It's not always the lens or the camera. Indoors or in lower light, another battle is motion blur, even very slight, can make an in focus subject look out of focus, so higher shutter (1/focal length x1.6) works well (the 1.6 is to compensate for the sensor crop)

A 760 or70d is a worthy upgrade, don't be scared to keep it wider, you have 10 or 14 more mp to crop from.
As always though, the camera is the least of it, a little extra technique can go a long way.

Good luck with the party (and sorry Marsu if I read you wrong, there is a trend sonetimes on cr towards gear snobbery, I'm sure from previous experience I've misinterpreted the tone)


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## Marsu42 (Feb 13, 2015)

Tinky said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Buy a better camera body (like the 5d3/1dx af system) and couple it with the newest lenses that have enhanced precison vs. older L versions, that's for example the 24-70L2.
> ...



Thanks for mentioning it, reading it again it might get across as such as I forgot to add a <sarcasm> tag. I'm actually rather annoyed that all CR talks about how great the Canon system is if they actually mean the top-notch gear range I'll never be able to afford, leaving the rest of us wrestling with afma-less bodies like 60d/760d or sub-mediocre af systems like 6d.

So if I write to "get a 1dx" that's my personal cynism version of the "just get a better job, will you?" line that some (insert swear words here) people replied to me when I deliberated what Canon gear I should get with a very limited budget. Alas, with Canon there's really no way out of this problem ...



Tinky said:


> The 19 cross point system is going to be a revelation coming from the 400d that it seems a shame not to get the best out of it...



... because even with the 70d, they crippled to af system in an important aspect: They (software-) disabled the "spot af" option, even if the af array seems to be the same as on the 7d.

I only tested the 70d in a shop, but the af points appear huuuuuuuge to me and I have no idea how reliable this is when trying to af on a smaller spot like an animal's eye like a horse looking in your direction. At least in this regard I imagine the smaller af points of my 60d do better, but if you track an elephant the 70d probably does the job.


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## 9VIII (Feb 13, 2015)

If you're upgrading from a Rebel, and the 70D is an option, then get the 6D because it's only a bit more expensive and infinitely better if you're just doing everyday stuff.
Heck, I do ok shooting BIF with my T3! (cheapest body they ever made) so the 6D is gonna be good enough.


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## 9VIII (Feb 13, 2015)

Rockets95 said:


> I see the 760D does not appear to have a back focus button. For me, it would be hard to give that up.



Even my T3 has back focus capability, that being the case I'm fairly certain that every other canon DSLR made in the last five years can do it too.


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## eninja (Feb 13, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Buy a better camera body (like the 5d3/1dx af system) and couple it with the newest lenses that have enhanced precison vs. older L versions, that's for example the 24-70L2. Top-notch af precision is expensive (Canon makes sure of that), another reason you need a good af system is that you have to prevent focus & recompose errors by af'ing right on the spot.



Thanks for the comment regarding how to improve precision.
I used my 50L with 70D usually. Still can not AF properly. But when I use 50L on 6D, it nails focus.
Tbh, 6D does a good job doing AF. even outer points, when I feel lens af locks on, means it really is on focus on the 6D. Never miss anytime. Unless user error.

But on the 70D, I keep praticing shooting my wife, but they miss every time. 
I put af on her eyes, still does not make it. I put af on her smile, it won't focus. 
But it locks on object.

Maybe because there's shadow in her face, or no contrast enough, or may hand shakes, contributes to not focusing.. But what ever it is. My 6D af everytime, even face is under shadow.

Still fustrated, need to practice and test more. Both 70D and 50L already was service by canon.

Next test, I will use AF assist light from speedlite, and see results.


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## troy19 (Feb 13, 2015)

Tinky said:


> The ovf is still going to give you the best af, compared between even the latest live view and ovf, all these other issues such as afma fade a little.
> 
> The 19 cross point system is going to be a revelation coming from the 400d that it seems a shame not to get the best out of it...
> 
> ...



Thanks Tinky, appreciate your many comments. They'll shure help me choosing the right gear AND help getting more good pics 

I often struggled with af on the 400d, though I used the center af point about exclusively. But that may have been the case because of using slow zooms (f 3.5 - 5.6) and/or with poor lighting. So I hope to improve keeper rate on the 70d.

I'm aware of dof-issues with fast lenses. But personally I prefer a pic with a little to shallow dof than a distracting background. Maybe I change my mind when I have the experience with these lenses. 

The flash thing: You're right, I forgot to mention, but don't know if flash makes sense in our party location (former tennis hall, now used as indoor playground paradise, height about 5 - 15 m), I guess no flash would work at these distances, but maybe I'll give it a try.


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## Tinky (Feb 13, 2015)

yes the roof sounds pretty high, the shallow dof look is very nice, part of the equation is to have good subject to background seperation too. There used to be a theory that the distance between the subject and the background should be double the distance between the camera and the subject.. this kind of perspective might also help you to throw the background out without needing to resort to very wide apertures. The closer you are to your subject the shallower the depth of field too, so even a meter or two away you are going to want to stop down a bit, or getting anything other than one eye in focus is going to be a nightmare!

Good luck


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## ajfotofilmagem (Feb 13, 2015)

Another advantage of 70D (plus AFMA) is the Dual Pixel AF when using Live View. So far we have not seen comparative tests, but it is assumed that the Hybrid AF iii found on the 760D is not as fast as Dual Pixel AF in 70D.


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## Luds34 (Feb 13, 2015)

9VIII said:


> If you're upgrading from a Rebel, and the 70D is an option, then get the 6D because it's only a bit more expensive and infinitely better if you're just doing everyday stuff.
> Heck, I do ok shooting BIF with my T3! (cheapest body they ever made) so the 6D is gonna be good enough.



Is it? I guess it depends what you mean by "everyday stuff". But other then having a full frame sensor the 6D seems inferior to the 70D in many ways. Some big ones just off the top of my head:

Max Shutter Speed
Max Flash Sync Speed
Focus System
FPS

I would argue that the 70D is one of the better (on a realistic budget) jack of all trades cameras on the market. I think the OP talked about tracking kids running around. While I mostly use just the center point focus point, it is nice to move to the top points and use ai servo to track at the face/head level for better framing of a subject in motion. The 70D, used in this manner, tracks very well. When I have tried the same with a Canon camera using outer points that are not cross type, it misses much more then I like.


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## Calaverasgrande (Jun 27, 2015)

I bought the 760D about a month ago. It was an upgrade from a T2i. 
I got a great deal from a certain HK dealer that also produces humorous youtube vids about photography.
It is much better than the T2i and most recent Rebels in terms of IQ, esp low light. 
It also is quite fast. The 5fps is no joke and seems to not be affected by metering choices and AF the way the T2i was. So far the battery is pretty darn solid. I have yet to run it down from a day of street shooting. But I never use flash either. 

Negs; 
there are not as many top plate LCD buttons as other Canons with a top plate LCD. 
It takes a very new battery (I think the M3 uses it too?) so there are no 3rd party batteries or chargers yet. 
Ditto for grips, only the Canon battery grip for now. So no nifty grips with intervalometers built in. 
Also no headphone jack, and no way that I have found to see adio meters while shooting video. So it is easy to get bad sound on the video.
Positives.
It focuses pretty darn good. The ability to switch modes in VF, move a zone or a point manually is great. It locks pretty good. Though I do get some hunting with some lenses when there isnt enough light or contrast. 

Yes you can back button focus on this model.


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## troy19 (Jun 27, 2015)

Just a quick update to this topic:

I rented a 70d with EF 2,8/17-55. 

Body felt good, no usability problems when coming from a 400d, but much more settings to be done for fine tuning.

Lens didn't convince me at all. I had high hopes because the lens is well regarded as a good performer, but sharpness was below my expectations.

So I got a 70d with Sigma 1,8/18-35 Art and this is a great combination. AF is snappy and lens is very sharp. That's a huge step forward in my little photo world 

Combination though had a pretty obvious front focus which was easily corrected by the 70d's afma.

And here we are at the point that was the main concern when deciding between 70d and 760d. I wanted to make AF working fine with all lenses, the ones I have by now and the ones I will add in some time. So decision was easy at the end.


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