# RRS or Markins?



## shining example (Jun 12, 2014)

About two years ago I said on someone else's thread somewhere on this very forum that I was looking into getting an RRS ballhead and L-plate. Someone responded suggesting I consider Markins. And then I had no money and wasn't using the tripod all that much anyway and never got round to buying anything.

But now I'm going on a trip and will want to take long exposures, so I'm finally going to make that purchase. Which should I go for? The RRS BH-30 (or BH-40 even?) or the Markins Q10? Or is there something else you'd really really _really_ recommend?

My tripod is a Gitzo Traveller; camera is a 7D, and the longest/heaviest lens I have is a 70-300 L. I don't think I'd ever get a much bigger lens because weight/portability is an issue for me, but obviously it'd be nice if the ballhead could take a little more, just in case.

I've searched the forums, and people seem to heavily recommend both brands; but I've no idea how to make a choice between the two, and would be grateful for any advice that could help. Thanks!


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## eli452 (Jun 13, 2014)

The Q10 is great. If you have few lens with big weight difference you want to shoot with on tripod the Markins drag screw is a bit difficult. The BH-40 is very good too. If you want the RRS L-Plate just order both from RRS.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 13, 2014)

Markins makes a traveler specific ballhead, I have it and love it. I also have a Q20. I chose Markins because they weighed less and they have a simpler layout.


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## ejenner (Jun 13, 2014)

PhotoClam. Cheaper, just as good, rotational lock screw works better than Markins.

Check you can put the clamp you want on it though (you can't get an Arcatech clamp to fit it, but you can get RRS clamps or use the screw clamp it comes with).

When I was looking though, Markins seemed more popular for ballheads than RRS. I have a small, light RRS ballhead for my monopod which is certainly high quality, as I'd expect from RRS (and the high price).


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## scottburgess (Jun 13, 2014)

Okay, that won't elicit a short answer. But I'll share what I know and have heard.

Markins generally is thought of as not playing well with other gear. For me that's critical because no one manufacturer has everything I need. It's amazing how important a millimeter or the cant of a dovetail is to getting pieces to mate easily, and Arca-Swiss did not produce universal standards. I've heard folks grouse about several Markins ball heads. The only Markins head I've heard recommended is the Q20, but you might still have trouble making that work smoothly with other gear. The ball head is the most important component of a support system. There are better places (eg: lens and body plates, clamps, flash brackets, macro rails...) where one can save money. I recommend investing in a top ball head, then saving elsewhere.

RRS is recognized by many as producing the best average quality in the industry. If you buy a ball head from them, it could well be the last one you need to purchase. The BH-55 PRO would be my first recommendation, since you might upgrade to a larger lens, or to a heavier body (eg: 5Diii + grip), and it permits extreme angles with its perfect grip and it is easy to set given the great tension controls. The knobs are easy to handle with gloved hands in subzero weather. The BH-40 PRO II should be similar if you are certain you won't get heavier gear and you need to shave weight, though the knobs may not be as easy to work in cold conditions. We love their gear and own two ball heads and some other pieces. RRS has higher prices justified by the outstanding engineering and quality control. If it is between RRS and Markins, I see that as a no-brainer: go with RRS. But there are other choices...

Kirk makes a BH-3 that you might want to look at. Their quality averages better than Markins, but less than RRS. Prices a tad less than RRS. The Markins Q20 looks kinda like it was modeled after the Kirk BH-1. We use the Kirk monopod head and a quick-release flash bracket, as well as plates and clamps, and are happy with all.

We use an Acratech Ultimate on our backpacking tripod. Weighs one pound, but supports an army and costs less to boot. On the down side, you have to crank on the tightening knob to really lock it down since there are no tension controls. But _it requires no maintenance or lubrication_, and ours has survived hundreds of miles on the trail.

The Induro PHQ-3 is an Arca-Swiss pan-tilt head. I mounted ours on our old Bogen 3021 aluminum legs ("the tank"). I like using it for some landscape and macro work near the car. The pan-tilt facilitates tiny adjustments to one plane of the image. The PHQ-3 also has integrated panorama support. If you're more comfortable with ball heads, no problem. Some folks prefer a pan-tilt head, and until recently there were no Arca-Swiss integrated setups, hence I thought it worth mentioning.

So given all that, *my basic recommendation is* that you get the RRS, especially if you only plan to use one tripod. I personally favor the BH-55 PRO as noted above, but expect the BH-40 PRO II would be excellent. Consider the PCPRO clamp if you enjoy panoramas. For either head, _I recommend you get a PRO clamp and not the "LR" quick release clamp_, which is the only product they make which I think is flaky.

Wimberley makes some great gear at RRS prices, but folks usually go to them first for a gimbal head. We don't have a great white, so we haven't considered them yet.

Linhof makes some superb equipment, but at prices per ounce that will make you think you're trading on a gold exchange. Santa owes me their 3D Leveling Head II with Dovetail Track, which qualifies as functional art in my book. I've drooled over but haven't owned their products.

*To save money*, I recommend looking closely at Hejnar Photo for plates, clamps, and rails. This on-line shop produces a dizzying array of high quality products at prices seemingly lower than anyone offers outside of rural China. It is run by one guy in his spare time, and he has a job, so take that into account (eg: if something is out of stock, it may take a week or so to fill your order). 

Don't forget to factor the cost of plates into your purchase! You may want to get the RRS L-plate for your 7D as part of your order.

We currently use heads, plates, rails, brackets, and clamps from RRS, Kirk, Acratech, Induro, and Hejnar, and all the gear plays nicely together. Folks who use Wimberley say they play nicely, too. In the end what matters is that your support system doesn't require fiddling, but it works transparently so all your focus is on the image. 

http://www.hejnarphotostore.com/
http://www.kirkphoto.com/
http://www.tripodhead.com/ (Wimberley)
http://www.indurogear.com/
http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/
http://acratech.net/


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## brad-man (Jun 13, 2014)

Markins Q3 will be more than adequate for your setup. I also have a RRS BH40 so can compare directly. The Q3 is smoother, lighter and locks up quicker and stronger than the BH40. The only advantage of the BH40 is the strength of the panning lock. I only find this inconvenient for macro shooting, which is where I use the RRS.


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## mackguyver (Jun 13, 2014)

I have the RRS BH-55 and while it's an excellent head, I am pretty disappointed with it for the cost. It's built well and I like the rounded knobs - I am a talented "snagger" - but it's not super smooth and the tension doesn't adjust as finely as you'd hope. It also tends to drop a bit once locked down, not a lot, but it's still annoying. 

For the money, I was expecting a lot more, and in retrospect, I wish I'd kept my Manfrotto MG468 RC2 and simply swapped out the head with the RRS lever clamp. 

EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is that you can't go wrong with the RRS head, but if I had to do over again, I'd have looked into other options. This is when I miss the old brick & mortar days...


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## docsmith (Jun 13, 2014)

I went through this about 2 years ago and chose the Markins Q3T ballhead for my Gitzo traveler tripod. It has been great. I'd easily recommend it.


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## sagittariansrock (Jun 13, 2014)

I think the Arca Swiss Z1 is better than, if not at least as good as, the BH-55. I really like the aspherical ball, and it is lighter but with higher load capacity.
However, the Arca Swiss clamp isn't ideal (though I do fine with it)- so getting a ballhead with just the flat plate and getting a Wimberley or RRS clamp is a better idea. Tripodhead.com sells Z1 ballheads assembled to a Wimberley C-12 clamp, but it is also easily done at home.


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## schill (Jun 13, 2014)

I have a Kirk BH-3 that I'm very happy with. It's actually the second I've owned. The first was stolen last fall (along with the carbon fiber tripod it was on). I ordered a new BH-3 almost right away. I still haven't replaced the tripod (I'm using an aluminum one that I already had).

I really like the Kirk products and use their custom body and lens plates.

I've also ordered plates and other components from Hejnar and the quality is very good.


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## winglet (Jun 14, 2014)

Great writeup by scottburgess. I completely agree with the statement that compatibility between components from different manufacturers is very important. I am using Acratech, RSS, and Wimberly products and they all can be mixed and matched.

Just a small plug for the Acratech GV2 head, which I use and love. The Ultimate is mentioned but I thought I'd point out the GV2 weighs the same (<1lb) and has the gimbaling feature. I think a full gimbal would be a little overkill, but this could fit the bill perfectly. It's a pleasure to use, I would put the build quality on par with RSS or at least, extremely close.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/599678-REG/Acratech_1152_GV2_Ballhead_Gimbal_Head.html


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## quod (Jun 14, 2014)

I have both a Markins and a RRS ball head. The Markins is light weight and has great tension when tightened. About a year ago, the ball head tension started getting intermittently stiff and I have no clue why. I assume that I have to open it up and clean the ball head. My RRS has never had any issues. It's heavier than the Markins, but in my mind, it is more reliable.


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## scottburgess (Jun 14, 2014)

winglet said:


> Just a small plug for the Acratech GV2 head, which I use and love. The Ultimate is mentioned but I thought I'd point out the GV2 weighs the same (<1lb) and has the gimbaling feature. I think a full gimbal would be a little overkill, but this could fit the bill perfectly. It's a pleasure to use, I would put the build quality on par with RSS or at least, extremely close.
> 
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/599678-REG/Acratech_1152_GV2_Ballhead_Gimbal_Head.html



That's a good point--when I bought my Acratech, their only head was the Ultimate. If I were looking at their products today the GV2 would be at the top of the list.

For those curious, almost every pro I know uses RRS and a fair number use the Wimberley gimbal head, though I have seen Acratech in the field. A few pros use Kirk. I haven't run into anyone else with an Induro PHQ-series head, but even I have it on a secondary tripod. Likewise, I don't see Markins or Linhof anywhere. That doesn't mean they aren't used, of course, just that the frequency appears low from personal samples. Linhof presents obvious pricing problems, the others may be used less due to lack of brand recognition, durability issues, etc... Professionals talk reliability mostly about support, so that's the main thing to glean about this: RRS is considered to be durable gear you can count on.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 14, 2014)

scottburgess said:


> winglet said:
> 
> 
> > Just a small plug for the Acratech GV2 head, which I use and love. The Ultimate is mentioned but I thought I'd point out the GV2 weighs the same (<1lb) and has the gimbaling feature. I think a full gimbal would be a little overkill, but this could fit the bill perfectly. It's a pleasure to use, I would put the build quality on par with RSS or at least, extremely close.
> ...



I have had the Acratech GP head since it came out. If I lost it I'd buy another tomorrow, it is, without doubt, the best general use head I have ever used. The functionality is unmatched in price and weight, for more specific uses there are better dedicated heads, for general use the GP is the best know of. Buy once and forget, is my suggestion for support, you wouldn't go wrong with the Acratech GP.


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## wsheldon (Jun 14, 2014)

scottburgess said:


> Okay, that won't elicit a short answer. But I'll share what I know and have heard.
> 
> Markins generally is thought of as not playing well with other gear. For me that's critical because no one manufacturer has everything I need. It's amazing how important a millimeter or the cant of a dovetail is to getting pieces to mate easily, and Arca-Swiss did not produce universal standards. I've heard folks grouse about several Markins ball heads. The only Markins head I've heard recommended is the Q20, but you might still have trouble making that work smoothly with other gear. The ball head is the most important component of a support system. There are better places (eg: lens and body plates, clamps, flash brackets, macro rails...) where one can save money. I recommend investing in a top ball head, then saving elsewhere.



I've owned a Q10 for several years and researched it heavily beforehand, and this is the first I've heard of those incompatibility criticisms. I use a mix of Markins, RRS, and Kirk camera and lens plates and all of them mount easily and tightly on the Q10 with the screw clamp. Lever clamp bases are always tricky to mix/match plates on, so perhaps that's what the fit comments you report are based on. However, Markins answered that by making their lever clamp tension adjustable, unlike RRS which I have heard is very picky about fit with other AS plates. 

The *only* consistent negative people report is difficulty really locking down the pan base, particularly people who tote their gear mounted over the shoulder. I haven't had major problems with that issue, but I it does take a pretty good twist to get the pan base tight so I can see how that happens.

That aside, I think the Markins Q10 is a top-notch ballhead that operates very smoothly with no sag except under extreme conditions. It's much easier to find and set the sweet spot than any ballhead I've ever tried. I only experience sag once, and that was with a 180mm macro plus 1.4x extender way off axis on a set of RRS macro rails and with a 430ex flash mounted way out above the lens. It held great, despite all that torque, I just had to deal with minor sag when tightening. This is much, much better performance than the Kirk head I upgraded from.

No experience with the BH55, but there is a major increase in weight and a bit more $$ with that head, so I've stuck with my Q10 even when upgrading the 3-series RRS legs. I'm a big RRS fan, though, so I may end up there some day.


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## scottburgess (Jun 14, 2014)

wsheldon said:


> I've owned a Q10 for several years and researched it heavily beforehand, and this is the first I've heard of those incompatibility criticisms. I use a mix of Markins, RRS, and Kirk camera and lens plates and all of them mount easily and tightly on the Q10 with the screw clamp. Lever clamp bases are always tricky to mix/match plates on, so perhaps that's what the fit comments you report are based on. However, Markins answered that by making their lever clamp tension adjustable, unlike RRS which I have heard is very picky about fit with other AS plates.



I see that RRS has lessened their warnings on compatibility, so perhaps recent Markins gear is not so far off now. Most of my support gear is 5-15 years old, so new generations from everyone are out. There certainly used to be problems of cross-compatibility due to variations in the cant of the dovetails and size--this meant that there was less surface contact between plates and clamps and some Markins plates reportedly didn't fit in the other clamps right. I still wouldn't buy their products without having an opportunity to check them against all of mine.

There are other issues with the RRS lever clamps besides their lack of adjustability/compatibility. The first I bought would not move smoothly. After they redesigned the mechanism, I replaced the bad one with another that worked fine at first, but eventually became difficult to close even on RRS plates. Hence why I suggest avoiding that product. Pity, because I would prefer the lever if it worked properly and was durable, but I've been bitten by two bad purchases on that so I won't buy another from them unless they replace the current one as a straight trade (they gave me a 50% discount trading in the first used one even though they knew of the design flaw--effectively I've paid for 1.5 lever clamps and have 0 working). The product needs to be significantly re-engineered. Their ball heads are marvelous, but their lever clamp is the fly in the ointment.

Kirk builds clamps with a larger screw thread, making the jaws open and close faster than most (earlier?) screw threads. I appreciate that improvement on theirs.

I replaced the second RRS lever clamp with a 4-inch Hejnar clamp on the Acratech--it permits me to loosen the jaws and slide something forward a few millimeters for 3x + macro shots without having to reposition or grab a macro rail. Surprisingly handy to have the long jaws if you do macro at that scale.

Funny thing: in Great Basin National Park I once passed someone on the trail with the same Manfrotto carbon fiber legs, Acratech Ultimate head, and RRS lever clamp as I had at that time. I was struck by how those exact configurations could wind up in the same remote location. Very amusing how we photographers peruse the gear others carry--kinda like dogs sniffing each others butts in passing! lol


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## YuengLinger (Jun 14, 2014)

Two years with the RRS BH-55 and clamp for my 5DIII, my heaviest lens being a 70-200mm f2.8 IS II. No problems whatsoever with fine adjustments, smoothness, or the clamps. I have the L-plates.

It is so intuitive to use, so quick, almost like not using a tripod at times. Anytime equipment seems to become invisible, I'm happy.

Only complaint is when I want to shoot pointing upwards, I have to turn the head around so that I can get a steeper angle with one of the two slots, but that seems to be an issue on many heads. And of course the same happens if I want to point downwards--I have to use a slot, which reminds me that I'm using a tripod.

Customer service is superb.


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## Kestrel (Jun 15, 2014)

I have had a RRS BH-55 with lever release for nearly a decade and it is fabulous. No problems whatsoever with the lever release clamp. I far prefer the lever release to the traditional knob, and have never, ever, had one come open accidentally. I think if you use it with RRS plates you will have no trouble.


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## Bennymiata (Jun 15, 2014)

I do a lot of work at big building sites with lots of dust and dirt, and I use an Acratech GP ballhead.
If it gets covered in mud, which does happen occasionally, I just run it under a water tap to clean it. No need to lubricate it at all.
Had it for a few years and it has never let me down once.
It locks on really well and the gimball feature comes in handy for my fun photography.
It's very light in weight, yet holds my gripped 5D3 with 100-400 lens and even a converter sometimes, and it's steady as a rock, yet easy to adjust.
To me, it's a real work of design art too and I've had many comments about it from other photographers who may not have ever seen one in Australia.
You can also turn it into a levelling head which is really handy for panos. Saves carrying around an extra leveller.


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## winglet (Jun 15, 2014)

scottburgess said:


> Funny thing: in Great Basin National Park I once passed someone on the trail with the same Manfrotto carbon fiber legs, Acratech Ultimate head, and RRS lever clamp as I had at that time. I was struck by how those exact configurations could wind up in the same remote location. Very amusing how we photographers peruse the gear others carry--kinda like dogs sniffing each others butts in passing! lol



Ha! So true!

I've held off the lever clamps so far, although it seems most people that have them, rave about them and have had no issues. When I ordered the RRS PG-02 L Pano-Gimbal, I actually specified it with the screw clamp over the lever. That's partly because getting gear overseas is a little trickier so I tend to order whatever is the most conservative option. 

From the RRS site:



> Traditional screw-knob clamps are tried & true and can deliver slightly greater clamping force than our Lever Release clamps.



For something that holds my 1DX + 200-400, I'll take all the clamping force I can get!  But it's really personal preference more than anything. 

Sorry for the slight thread drift.


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## shining example (Jun 15, 2014)

Thank you all very much for taking the time to reply - there's an awful lot of useful info here. 



scottburgess said:


> The ball head is the most important component of a support system. There are better places (eg: lens and body plates, clamps, flash brackets, macro rails...) where one can save money. I recommend investing in a top ball head, then saving elsewhere.


Yes, absolutely. I can't quite stretch to Linhof, but that aside, I'm willing to pay what it takes. I just want something that really works for me. (I already have a ballhead that doesn't...)

I've read the thread carefully several times now, and what I keep coming back to are the recommendations for Acratech. Strong but lightweight and easy to keep clean are excellent points in favour, and I like the gimbal/leveling base trick, although I don't know how much I'd actually use it.

I'm willing to carry as much as I have to, weight-wise, to be sure it'll hold my gear properly, but once that's given, the lighter the better. And the place I'm most likely to use it is on beaches, so while I'm rather hoping I wouldn't drop it in the drink or mud, having something that will forgive that if it does happen also appeals. (Also, I can be a bit of a klutz, so.)

I'm specifically considering the Acratech GP, which btw does have a tensioning knob (re: scottburgess's caveat about having to "crank on the tightening knob to really lock it down", which would be an issue because I don't have particularly strong hands).

Acratech don't however do custom L-plates, and Hejnar Photo don't seem to do them for Canon. My local bricks-and-mortar camera shop could order me one, but I didn't quite catch which brand it would be - Kirk, I think. 

Would the Acratech GP be a good choice, do you think? And if so, where would I best go for my L-plate? 

Thanks again!


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## brad-man (Jun 15, 2014)

shining example said:


> Thank you all very much for taking the time to reply - there's an awful lot of useful info here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Acratech GP is an excellent head, you will not be disappointed. One of the major points of the arca-swiss system is compatibility. Any arca compatible plate will fit with any arca ballhead that uses a screw type clamp. Lever clamps are a little more picky. Kirk and RRS make the best L brackets that are custom fitted for your model of camera. Lens plates can be bought from any source as they are generic.


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## scottburgess (Jun 15, 2014)

shining example said:


> Would the Acratech GP be a good choice, do you think? And if so, where would I best go for my L-plate?
> 
> Thanks again!



You're welcome, glad to hear all our ramblings are of use.

The Acratech GP should be able to support your lenses and should be reasonably durable. Whether it is best for your style of photography only you can really say. Part of using gear is liking the feel of it, feeling like it is an extension of yourself. I appreciate the texture of the RRS clamp knobs, the fast closing action on some Kirk clamps, the smooth control of the BH-55 head, the huge variety and mounting options of the Hejnar macro rails, and how much easier life is with ring mounts on telephoto and macro lenses. If you're like most of us, you'll have your own likes and dislikes after using something heavily for years, and you'll appreciate minute improvements in the newer gear. Then maybe you'll try something else. Camera gear is not "...'til death do us part," after all.

Note that you _might_ be able to order an Acratech head *without* a clamp, meaning you could buy the clamp of your choice from somewhere else. For example, a RRS panning clamp might be more practical than their "upside down" posture for frequent pano-stitching. The clamp-free versions used to be common from Acratech--contact the company via email if that's an option you'd like and see what they will do pricing-wise. It never hurts to ask. I notice they now have lever clamps and bubble levels available, so maybe this option doesn't matter much to you. 

Both Kirk and RRS make great L-plates for camera bodies. Usually I check weight and whether I have full access to the controls, but Kirk and RRS are both good about making ports available. Sometimes Kirk is a little cheaper. With respect to your 7D, however, the prices are the same, so I personally would choose the RRS since it is a half ounce lighter (unless you need the new sensor center line on the Kirk).

Hejnar really doesn't make L-plates. They're costly to design, as designers must buy all the camera models and accessories to test out prototypes. Hejnar carries a couple for a few odd Nikon and Sony models, but doesn't appear to customize them well to the camera bodies. I think he mainly fills a niche in L-plates for camera bodies that the bigger companies don't want to bother with.


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## shining example (Jul 28, 2014)

Just to follow up, I got my Acratech GP a few days ago.

Even just taking it out of the box, it's a thing of joy and beauty, but having now given it a quick try-out, I must say it feels pretty marvellous to use too. The difference between it and my previous ballhead is astounding, especially considering that said previous ballhead was an older, non-Arca-Swiss-compatible Gitzo, so not exactly bargain-bin either. (It _was_ awful though. Perhaps it was a particularly bad copy of an already not brilliant design.)



scottburgess said:


> Part of using gear is liking the feel of it, feeling like it is an extension of yourself.



Absolutely. And unfortunately you can't always tell until you've been using something for a while whether it really works for you. But while I may need a little while to get used to the screw clamp (I just went with it, as I'm not experienced enough to have a preference and the consensus seems to be that screw clamps are a tiny bit safer than quick release), I think we're going to get along just fine.

Thanks again to everyone who took the time to reply!


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## privatebydesign (Jul 28, 2014)

shining example said:


> Just to follow up, I got my Acratech GP a few days ago.



Welcome to the club. I can't recommend it any more than I did, if I lost mine today I'd order another one immediately.

There are a couple of things I actually spoke to Scott at Acratech about, when the clamp is mounted on the bottom there should be a detent to stop the whole clamp rotating on the base, when it is the "right" way up it has positive locks, when reversed it doesn't, not a biggie but if you are cold and wet, or hot and sweaty you can move the clamp unintentionally, though this is not a dropping hazard. And the pan and clamp knobs come close to each other when it is inverted.

Mine doesn't look pristine anymore either!


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## eli452 (Jul 28, 2014)

scottburgess said:


> Markins generally is thought of as not playing well with other gear.



I have the Markins Q3 on Gitzo monopod and the Q10 on Gitzo tripod. 7D with RRS L-Plate and 2 lens with collars and RRS lens plates, 2 RRS rails and Wimberley Arca Sidekick Ball to Gimbal Head Adapter and never had an issue with compatibility.


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## brad-man (Jul 28, 2014)

eli452 said:


> scottburgess said:
> 
> 
> > Markins generally is thought of as not playing well with other gear.
> ...



That quote is completely unfounded and undoubtedly came from someone who has never used a Markins...


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## docsmith (Jul 28, 2014)

eli452 said:


> scottburgess said:
> 
> 
> > Markins generally is thought of as not playing well with other gear.
> ...



Very similarly, I have a Markins Q3T mounted on a Gitzo tripod and connect with RRS L- and lens plates. No compatibility issues. If anything, the Markins plays better with others as it has an adjustment screw that lets me adjust the quick release to other manufacturer's plates.


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## tolusina (Jul 29, 2014)

shining example said:


> ..... I keep coming back to are the recommendations for Acratech. ......
> 
> Acratech don't however do custom L-plates,.....
> 
> Would the Acratech GP be a good choice, do you think? And if so, where would I best go for my L-plate? ....


Here's another Acratech recommendation.
I'm using an Ultimate GP Ballhead on a Gitzo GT2531LVL with a Really Right Stuff angle plate.
This Gitzo has a leveling post so I've no need for a leveling head feature.
I compared photos as that's what's possible on this internet thingy between Kirk and RRS angle plates, liked the look of the RRS a bit more than I liked the look of the Kirk.

10s on the 1 - 10 scale for Acratech and RRS.
One of these days I'ma rant on Gitzo though, grumble grumble, I did keep it though, actually, I kept the second even though it had the same issues as the first.



 .


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