# 7D2 & 600mm f4 ii for BIF?



## luckydude (Nov 26, 2014)

I know that some people had success with the original 7d & the 600mm f4. I was out playing in Elkhorn Slough a few months back with a 5DIII and the 600mm II and the 5D struggled to focus on birds in flight. I'm not a pro so maybe I'm doing it wrong but I'm wondering if the 7D2 is going to be better for BIF.

I believe that the AF will be better but I've heard that part of the problem is power, it takes a lot of power to focus those big lenses. If you put a grip on there does that provide more power for focussing or is it only providing more shots before you have to switch batteries?

If money wasn't a big issue would you rather have the 1Dx or the 7D2 for BIF?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 27, 2014)

I'd prefer the 1D X (and not just because I have one). An f/4 lens isn't fast, add a 1.4 or 2x TC and it's even slower. BIF means you need a fast shutter. Mad dogs and Englishmen may go out in the midday sun, but it's not the best light for photography. Putting all that together, BIF often means high ISO, and I'll take FF over APS-C for that any day. 

Some may argue about the 'reach advantage' of a crop sensor, but if you're at 600mm or longer, and need to crop deeply due to subject distance, you'll be running into IQ loss from atmospheric effects in most shooting conditions, so there's no real benefit to a smaller sensor.


----------



## Dylan777 (Nov 27, 2014)

luckydude said:


> If money wasn't a big issue would you rather have the 1Dx or the 7D2 for BIF?



1DX of course. Faster, better AF than 7D II, better ISO for early or late afternoon shots, better grip, more power...

Just like Neuro said, cropping shouldn't be an issue. 600mm + 1.4x TC III, I think you be fine 

This photo was taken with 1DX and 400mm f2.8 IS II + 2x TC III. Heavy crop:


----------



## Dylan777 (Nov 27, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> I'd prefer the 1D X (and not just because I have one). An f/4 lens isn't fast, add a 1.4 or 2x TC and it's even slower. BIF means you need a fast shutter. Mad dogs and Englishmen may go out in the midday sun, but it's not the best light for photography. Putting all that together, BIF often means high ISO, and I'll take FF over APS-C for that any day.
> 
> Some may argue about the 'reach advantage' of a crop sensor, but if you're at 600mm or longer, and need to crop deeply due to subject distance, you'll be running into IQ loss from atmospheric effects in most shooting conditions, so there's no real benefit to a smaller sensor.



This man knows photography well. 

Here is 25600ISO with 1DX, taken just before the sun set.


----------



## TexPhoto (Nov 27, 2014)

7D is going to be a great birding camera, and the 600mm f2.8 II an amazing birding lens. But this is effectively a 960mm combination. Finding and staying on a BIF can be very difficult at a focal length this long. I am no expert, but you are always better getting closer than using longer lenses. Especially if you are giving up light.


----------



## luckydude (Nov 27, 2014)

All you guys are saying get the 1dx but you didn't answer my questions. Can you reread and answer? You all are way ahead of me, I appreciate the advice.


----------



## luckydude (Nov 27, 2014)

For the record, I don't use frames per second, I shoot hockey and I have a ton of keepers from timing the shot.
I shoot rifles and it's the same thing, no splatter, just time the shot. I can put 4 shots on a 50 cent piece standing up at 100 yards with a Marlin 30-30. 

So I've never been about blast away, I time the shot and I get it but I need the camera to do its part.


----------



## ScottyP (Nov 27, 2014)

The 600mm is a $12k lens. I suppose if you have one knocking around in your bag the difference between $1700 7d2 and a $4800 1dx is not a big deal financially. 

In that comparison maybe you should compare a crop 7d2 with a 400mm 2.8 lens rather than a 600mm to equalize the focal length (mol) and to give a price factor and aperture advantage to the crop camera? Or compare the crop with the 500mm f/4 so the crop gets a price and effective length advantage to offset the negatives of crop?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 27, 2014)

luckydude said:


> I'm not a pro so maybe I'm doing it wrong but I'm wondering if the 7D2 is going to be better for BIF.



I'm not certain that the 7DII will be significantly better than the 5DIII for BIF in terms of AF. The 7D will have more active cross type points with an f/4 lens, but the 5DIII's f/4 points will be more accurate. The iTR tracking with the 7DII might give it an edge. I suspect skill and practice would make a much bigger difference.



luckydude said:


> I believe that the AF will be better but I've heard that part of the problem is power, it takes a lot of power to focus those big lenses. If you put a grip on there does that provide more power for focussing or is it only providing more shots before you have to switch batteries?



Adding a grip to a 5DIII or 7DII will not speed up AF. The two batteries are used alternately, so they will give you more shots, but that's it. However, the 1D X (and other 1-series bodies) use a battery with higher voltage, and that does give faster AF with many lenses (particularly the supertele lenses).


----------



## rpt (Nov 27, 2014)

luckydude said:


> I shoot rifles and it's the same thing, no splatter, just time the shot.


+1
No difference (in technique) between a long lens photographer and a sniper


----------



## rpt (Nov 27, 2014)

Btw, if money was no object I would get the 1DX and the 600 f4 in a heartbeat. Check out the 200-400 zoom too. I do not have any of these but you can see the pictures taken by folks on this site. They are fabulous.


----------



## luckydude (Nov 27, 2014)

rpt said:


> Btw, if money was no object I would get the 1DX and the 600 f4 in a heartbeat. Check out the 200-400 zoom too. I do not have any of these but you can see the pictures taken by folks on this site. They are fabulous.



I have the 600. Still waffling on the 1dx.


----------



## NancyP (Nov 27, 2014)

I would imagine that the 1DX provides the fastest AF for heavy supertelephoto movable elements. 
1DX battery LP-E4N: 11.1 V 2450 mAh
5D3 (5D2, 6D, 60D, 7D, 70D etc) battery LP-E6: 7.2 V 1800 mAh
7D2 battery LP-E6N: they don't specify, but the voltage and milli-ampere hours have to be very close if not identical because the battery is compatible with all LP-E6-using cameras.
So, the 1DX has a much beefier battery that should be able to move mass faster.

However, if you are going to use a smaller lens with the 7D2, such as my beloved EF 400 f/5.6L, the LP-E6whatever can quickly shove around that relatively tiny moving element.


----------



## seattlebirdman (Nov 27, 2014)

Sometimes 960mm FOV is not enough 

Here's a BIF at 1920mm - 7D2, 600mm f4 + 2X tele, f8, iso 640, 1/3200, tripod



Rising to the Perch by seattlebirdman, on Flickr


----------



## serendipidy (Nov 27, 2014)

seattlebirdman said:


> Sometimes 960mm FOV is not enough
> 
> Here's a BIF at 1920mm - 7D2, 600mm f4 + 2X tele, f8, iso 640, 1/3200, tripod
> 
> ...



WOW! Beautiful capture. 8)


----------



## Click (Nov 27, 2014)

seattlebirdman said:


> Sometimes 960mm FOV is not enough
> 
> Here's a BIF at 1920mm - 7D2, 600mm f4 + 2X tele, f8, iso 640, 1/3200, tripod



Awesome. Well done Doug.


----------



## tayassu (Nov 27, 2014)

Doug, that is a great picture! 
I am shooting BIF with equiv. 500mm and do find it enough... For the 7DII I'd get the 300/2.8 with both extenders.

But, to answer your questions:
The grip won't give you any extra features, it will just increase your possible number of pictures.
It is a difficult question about the camera. The 1DX is targeted at big white users, as Mr Westfall explained, but the 7DII has that enormous coverage of AF points. For BIF, you often need 1/1000 or more, so good High-ISO capability is a must. I'd probably go for the 1DX, but with the 500/4.


----------



## luckydude (Nov 27, 2014)

ScottyP said:


> The 600mm is a $12k lens. I suppose if you have one knocking around in your bag the difference between $1700 7d2 and a $4800 1dx is not a big deal financially.
> 
> In that comparison maybe you should compare a crop 7d2 with a 400mm 2.8 lens rather than a 600mm to equalize the focal length (mol) and to give a price factor and aperture advantage to the crop camera? Or compare the crop with the 500mm f/4 so the crop gets a price and effective length advantage to offset the negatives of crop?



I was really looking for info on the 600 (I have 300, 400 DO, both TC III, don't have the 500 or any of the 2.8 versions). I really like the 400, it's so light and you slap a 1.4x on it and it's a pretty nice tool. That said sometimes I need the reach and that's why I got the 600. If they had a 500DO I would have bought that instead but they didn't.

At this point I'm leaning towards the 7D2, those eagle pics are awesome. I'm jealous, nice job!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 27, 2014)

luckydude said:


> At this point I'm leaning towards the 7D2, those eagle pics are awesome. I'm jealous, nice job!



I'd suggest checking your BIF shots for the ISO range you've used with the 5DIII, and consider that against the 7DII's noise levels.


----------



## luckydude (Nov 28, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> luckydude said:
> 
> 
> > At this point I'm leaning towards the 7D2, those eagle pics are awesome. I'm jealous, nice job!
> ...



The ISO isn't usually the problem. Don't get me wrong, lots of times I *love* the 5DIII's focus system. But when birds are moving fast it lets me down. Works great for hockey, great for more or less stationary birds, great for the fire department helicopter fly by, birds in flight against a noisy background w/ the 600mm? Not so much.

Noise isn't really something that I worry about that much. It's one of those things that if I'm comparing sensors, yeah, I see it, but if I'm looking at the picture the noise just is what it is, it sort of fades for me, a little like a blurred background only not as pleasant.

Focus is the issue for me and BIF.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 28, 2014)

luckydude said:


> But when birds are moving fast it lets me down. Works great for hockey, great for more or less stationary birds, great for the fire department helicopter fly by, birds in flight against a noisy background w/ the 600mm? Not so much.
> 
> Focus is the issue for me and BIF.



Interesting. I've not had any significant issues with my 1D X and 600 II (without or with a MkIII TC). Perhaps the iTR feature (the main difference between the 1D X and 5DIII AF) makes more of a difference for BIF than I thought.

Below are a few examples (not generally what I consider good shots, but they do show BIF tracking against a complex background):


----------



## rpt (Nov 28, 2014)

serendipidy said:


> seattlebirdman said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes 960mm FOV is not enough
> ...


WOW!


----------

