# Canon #1 in Japanese market share for both DSLR and mirrorless in 2018



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 15, 2019)

> BCN has released their 2018 sales awards for Japan, and Canon has had a really good year on its home turf. Capturing both the #1 position in DSLR market share as well mirrorless market share for 2018.
> Canon’s DSLR market share was at 57.4% in 2018, with Nikon taking the second spot at 39.3% and Ricoh rounding out the top 3 at 3.1%. Nikon did gain some market share at Canon’s expense, and this is probably because of the fantastic D850 and Canon’s lack of new prosumer DSLRs in 2018.
> 
> In mirrorless, Canon has taken the lead in market share at 31.6% on the strength of the EOS M50 and EOS R. Olympus finished second at 23.5% and Sony rounds out the top 3 at 22.7%
> ...



Continue reading...


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## ethanz (Jan 15, 2019)

But but, Canon is *******? Sony is taking over.

Who knew Ricoh made DSLRs?


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## Maximilian (Jan 15, 2019)

ethanz said:


> But but, Canon is *******?


Canon is still *******! So others still say. Because they have alternative facts


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## esimmons (Jan 15, 2019)

what about total worldwide market shares? that would be more useful than just Japan. either way, as others have said...CANON IS *******!!!!!!!!! better sell all my L's!


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## esimmons (Jan 15, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> they sell used underwear in japan too.... just saying.
> 
> unfortunately canon has released nothing in 2018 that would make me part from my money.
> 
> ...


yeah, the brown ring underwears are quite comfy!


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## windsorc (Jan 15, 2019)

Imagine what they could do if they had Sony sensors. Oh hold on, everyone should buy Canon because of the lenses and the colors, right? Thankfully we have Sony, Fuji and Nikon as competitors so we have some technical innovation, maybe this is the year Canon surprise us with some great cameras. Let's be honest, the 7dII was disappointing, the 5d iv was disappointing compared to the D850, the EOS R is generally thought to be worse than the Z6. I know the Canon cameras are good enough, but we'd alll like to see Canon take a lead for a change.


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## melgross (Jan 15, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> they sell used underwear in japan too.... just saying.
> 
> unfortunately canon has released nothing in 2018 that would make me part from my money.
> 
> ...



Yeah, well, they sell it here too.

You seem to be happily pessimestic. Keep wearing that downer hat.


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## melgross (Jan 15, 2019)

windsorc said:


> Imagine what they could do if they had Sony sensors. Oh hold on, everyone should buy Canon because of the lenses and the colors, right? Thankfully we have Sony, Fuji and Nikon as competitors so we have some technical innovation, maybe this is the year Canon surprise us with some great cameras. Let's be honest, the 7dII was disappointing, the 5d iv was disappointing compared to the D850, the EOS R is generally thought to be worse than the Z6. I know the Canon cameras are good enough, but we'd alll like to see Canon take a lead for a change.



The Canon sensors are slightly behind, but not by much. If you shoot for 4color, instead of pixel peeping on a monitor, there’s no practical difference. The rest of what you’re saying is exaggerated.


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## Mikehit (Jan 15, 2019)

ethanz said:


> But but, Canon is *******? Sony is taking over.



Absolutely. Did you know know that sale of FF MILCs is the only thing that matters when measuring the success of camera manufacturers? That is, until Canon overtake that as well. Then the only valid measure will be FF MILC shooting 4k @60fps for 25 minutes at a temperature of 54F with no overheating in 3 out of 5 cases.


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## Mikehit (Jan 15, 2019)

windsorc said:


> Imagine what they could do if they had Sony sensors. Oh hold on, everyone should buy Canon because of the lenses and the colors, right? Thankfully we have Sony, Fuji and Nikon as competitors so we have some technical innovation, maybe this is the year Canon surprise us with some great cameras. Let's be honest, the 7dII was disappointing, the 5d iv was disappointing compared to the D850, the EOS R is generally thought to be worse than the Z6. I know the Canon cameras are good enough, but we'd alll like to see Canon take a lead for a change.



And who decides what is 'disappointing'? Sure, we all get that there are internet warriors with a point to prove and youtube reviewers who need clicks but how many areas are Sony and Nikon 'disappointing'?


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## Mistral75 (Jan 15, 2019)

ethanz said:


> (...)
> 
> Who knew Ricoh made DSLRs?



Ricoh's DSLRs are branded Pentax.


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## docsmith (Jan 15, 2019)

All joking aside, what Canon has done is really impressive. 

#1 in ILCs. Sure, down a bit, but still dominating. Also, it wasn't too long ago that the gap between Nikon/Canon was much smaller. So, this is really Nikon re-establishing themselves and a year Canon did not release any DSLRs of significance (just entry level DSLRs, M50 and EOS-R). Seriously, wow. 
#1 in Mirrorless. After all the negativity, Canon is #1 in mirrorless sales. Again, wow.
#1 in lenses. A bit expected. Sell the most ILCs, sell the most lenses.
#2 in Digital Cameras. A very close second to Nikon with Sony a distant 3rd.

That is domination. Release a few new G series cameras, and maybe they are #1 in all categories for 2019.

I personally do not benefit from Canon's domination in the short term. But, as someone invested in a system, I have every reason to think Canon will be around for many years to come.


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## Cochese (Jan 15, 2019)

esimmons said:


> yeah, the brown ring underwears are quite comfy!



Joking aside, my friend sells her used underwear online and makes pretty close to $1k a month on most months.


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## bokehmon22 (Jan 15, 2019)

I'm shocked Canon is #1. I thought it would take a them a little longer to over take Sony. 
I wonder if this motivate Canon to be innovative with their EOS R Pro or not.

Sony can't really afford to put their feet off the gas pedal when it come to innovations.


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## bokehmon22 (Jan 15, 2019)

windsorc said:


> Imagine what they could do if they had Sony sensors. Oh hold on, everyone should buy Canon because of the lenses and the colors, right? Thankfully we have Sony, Fuji and Nikon as competitors so we have some technical innovation, maybe this is the year Canon surprise us with some great cameras. Let's be honest, the 7dII was disappointing, the 5d iv was disappointing compared to the D850, the EOS R is generally thought to be worse than the Z6. I know the Canon cameras are good enough, but we'd alll like to see Canon take a lead for a change.



You are comparing an older 5D IV to a newer D850?

If that's the case, we should compared Sony A7 to EOS R according to your logic. I wouldn't use it even it's for free.

There is a different in sensor but not my much. Good photographer are capable of making great pictures with less with Canon 6D, etc. I enjoy usability more than sensor performance like EVF, ergonomic, eyeAF, fully touch screen LCD. I don't need to raise my pictures 5 stop either.

We have off camera lighting for high dynamic range scene or luminosity mask. High dynamic range shadow recovery is noiser than luminosity mask.

I just wish Canon have better eyeAF, dual IS, and dual card slot.


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## ethanz (Jan 15, 2019)

Mistral75 said:


> Ricoh's DSLRs are branded Pentax.



Thanks Mistral


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## amorse (Jan 15, 2019)

I, personally, would really appreciate it if CR would stop noting that Canon is not in fact already dead/dying. The "mirrorless Sony and Nikon are the future and nothing else counts as innovation" narrative has presented a tremendous opportunity for me to build my EF collection, and this "truth" and "data" are really hampering my opportunities.

I hope it isn't necessary, but I'll add a "/s" just in case.


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## steliosk (Jan 15, 2019)

How about world market share, unless all the world is Japan!


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## woodman411 (Jan 15, 2019)

This must roil Rishi and DPR. I suppose they'll say "the Japanese are misinformed, don't know anything about dynamic range, and they're stuck with a bunch of Canon lenses so they can't change... why don't they just listen to us and buy Sony?!"


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## Kharan (Jan 15, 2019)

woodman411 said:


> This must roil Rishi and DPR. I suppose they'll say "the Japanese are misinformed, don't know anything about dynamic range, and they're stuck with a bunch of Canon lenses so they can't change... why don't they just listen to us and buy Sony?!"


Why!? Their employer is Amazon, and *they* are happy with sales, no matter of which brand. However, Canon's success has done nothing to revert the abysmal trend of the camera market (and neither has any other company), so this still remains a pyrrhic victory for them.
Also, it bears repeating: the Japanese market is very special in its preferences. It gravitates strongly towards mirrorless cameras, and entry-level ones at that. It's 100% price-sensitive, unlike the US or Europe, where more expensive mirrorless models have fared better than dirt-cheap shovelware.


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## tmc784 (Jan 15, 2019)

I buy Canon camera and lens, because they are made in Japan, I won't spend $2000 more to buy something made in 3rd world places.


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## docsmith (Jan 15, 2019)

woodman411 said:


> This must roil Rishi and DPR. I suppose they'll say "the Japanese are misinformed, don't know anything about dynamic range, and they're stuck with a bunch of Canon lenses so they can't change... why don't they just listen to us and buy Sony?!"



Goes to show how much influence the "influencers" really have.


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## Del Paso (Jan 15, 2019)

docsmith said:


> Goes to show how much influence the "influencers" really have.



And yet, I'm afraid their influence exists: think of of the number of people getting convinced by the most primitive advertising (washing powders...)
Many customers simply rely on "experts" in their decisions in favor or not of a product. It's so easy to sell specs, and so hard to sell ergonomics or service quality!


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## Diltiazem (Jan 16, 2019)

steliosk said:


> How about world market share, unless all the world is Japan!


Nikkei publishes worldwide sales report in July. According to the last report published in July last year, Canon 49.1%, Nikon 24.9%, and Sony 13.3% in ILC (DSLR and Mirrorless combined) market. In the fixed lens market Canon 43.4%, Nikon 25.7%, and Sony 20%. Worldwide Canon dominance is even more overwhelming.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 16, 2019)

Diltiazem said:


> Nikkei publishes worldwide sales report in July. According to the last report published in July last year, Canon 49.1%, Nikon 24.9%, and Sony 13.3% in ILC (DSLR and Mirrorless combined) market. In the fixed lens market Canon 43.4%, Nikon 25.7%, and Sony 20%. Worldwide Canon dominance is even more overwhelming.


Yeah, but that was before wide availability of the a7III, also known to some as *the spec sheet that rocked the world*. I’m sure that once sales of that awesomeness are included, those numbers will.....not really change.


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## Ozarker (Jan 16, 2019)

ethanz said:


> But but, Canon is *******? Sony is taking over.
> 
> Who knew Ricoh made DSLRs?


Ricoh = Pentax 2full frame, 2 apsc, and 1 medium format. No mirrorless yet that I know of.


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## Ozarker (Jan 16, 2019)

windsorc said:


> Imagine what they could do if they had Sony sensors. Oh hold on, everyone should buy Canon because of the lenses and the colors, right? Thankfully we have Sony, Fuji and Nikon as competitors so we have some technical innovation, maybe this is the year Canon surprise us with some great cameras. Let's be honest, the 7dII was disappointing, the 5d iv was disappointing compared to the D850, the EOS R is generally thought to be worse than the Z6. I know the Canon cameras are good enough, but we'd alll like to see Canon take a lead for a change.


Hmmmm.... what kind of technical innovation would you like to see from Canon?


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## dtaylor (Jan 16, 2019)

windsorc said:


> Imagine what they could do if they had Sony sensors.



Claim an extra 1ev of DR on a spec sheet when hardly anyone who obsesses about said spec can actually exploit it?


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## dtaylor (Jan 16, 2019)

melgross said:


> The Canon sensors are slightly behind, but not by much.



For stills they are behind on one single overblown spec (DR).

I have a screenshot of a RAW file shot in Zion where I put the unedited RAW next to the edited one, in ACR so that the settings were captured as well. Unedited the foreground is black while the clouds in the sky are just starting to clip. Edited the foreground is completely open and the clouds have more detail. I did use some NR but the final file prints 16x24 with no apparent noise in the deepest recovered shadows at that print size.

I used to enjoy uploading it in the middle of DR debates at dpreview. (I think I've posted it here as well.) Why did I enjoy that? Because it was shot on a 7D mark I and it was typically a better real world example of recovery/DR than anything being posted by the Sony/Nikon owning Canon bashers.

It's easy to quote a spec sheet. Sports car owners do it all the time. It's another thing entirely to be able to exploit that spec in the real world.

The best Sony/Nikon sensors are 1ev ahead of the 5D4, and 2-2.5ev ahead of Canon sensors with off-chip ADCs (5Ds/sr; 6D I/II) in DR at base ISO. Note I said "the best" because there are several bodies in the A7 line history with worse DR than a 5D4. (Funny how you won't find DPReview questioning those cameras like they do every Canon camera.)

A 1ev difference is trivial. It basically amounts to a NR slider change in post. Bashing the 5D IV for 'poor dynamic range' would be like setting a 42mp A7r III next to a 45mp D850 and bashing the Sony for 'poor resolution.'

2-2.5ev is not a gap which can be closed in post. If you grossly underexpose an image...if you have a single handheld frame of a HDR scene...it's going to make a discernible difference in final IQ. I thought about that before settling on a 5Ds. But then I remembered that I could _count on one hand_ the times that the DR of a 7D _mark I_ actually, truly failed me (i.e. didn't get the shot). A camera that is roughly 3.5 stops behind the very best.

And half of those were at higher ISOs where a D80x0 would have failed me to.

Sorry for the rant, but I get sick and tired of the "Canon sensors are behind" meme. I'll concede the 4k issue. I'll even concede that Canon has a readout speed issue they need to resolve that probably holds the EOS R frame rate back. (And is probably also the issue with FF 4k.) But in terms of stills IQ they are not behind. We are splitting hairs debating 42/45/50mp or 13.6/14.8 stops of DR.


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## docsmith (Jan 16, 2019)

Del Paso said:


> And yet, I'm afraid their influence exists: think of of the number of people getting convinced by the most primitive advertising (washing powders...)
> Many customers simply rely on "experts" in their decisions in favor or not of a product. It's so easy to sell specs, and so hard to sell ergonomics or service quality!


So there is influence and their is the range or extent of that influence. We live in the age where a very small number of people doing something can be magnified online and seem significant when really, it is not.

I actually do not want to conclude DPR etc are not significant, in fact, they may be very significant for Sony/Nikon. This is more of an observation. For a good 4-5 years there has been a very steady spec sheet drum beat that favored Sony/Nikon. And as impressed as I am at Sony's current system or the D850. That drum beat does not seem to have moved the needle in terms of overall sales. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. Canon has grown market share of ILCs and mirrorless.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 16, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> Sorry for the rant, but I get sick and tired of the "Canon sensors are behind" meme.


It’s a difference that seems to primarily concern spec sheet braggarts and measurebators. To flog the deceased equine, Canon sensors have ‘been behind’ since about 2009, and it has had no discernible negative effect on their ILC market share.


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## docsmith (Jan 16, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> It basically amounts to a NR slider change in post. Bashing the 5D IV for 'poor dynamic range' would be like setting a 42mp A7r III next to a 45mp D850 and bashing the Sony for 'poor resolution.'


 I really like that line as it is so true. Once in a long while, maybe you want those 3 extra megapixels (or 8 compared to the 5Dsr). But vast majority of time???

Then there are the other things that are missed in spec sheets.

In a recent Steve Huff video about the Z 6, he talked about the way images out of different systems had distinctive looks with examples (at ~5:15): Canon (skin tones, more pastel colors), Nikon (gritty, film like, rich colors), and Sony (more digital). That stuff will impact every image and either necessitate more work in post if you want to change it. But, it is subjective and not part of a spec list anywhere.


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## ozturert (Jan 16, 2019)

windsorc said:


> Imagine what they could do if they had Sony sensors. Oh hold on, everyone should buy Canon because of the lenses and the colors, right? Thankfully we have Sony, Fuji and Nikon as competitors so we have some technical innovation, maybe this is the year Canon surprise us with some great cameras. Let's be honest, the 7dII was disappointing, the 5d iv was disappointing compared to the D850, the EOS R is generally thought to be worse than the Z6. I know the Canon cameras are good enough, but we'd alll like to see Canon take a lead for a change.


7D II was disappointing? 5D IV was disappointing? Just because the sensors are 1/2 stops behind in DR doesn't mean they are disappointing. I have had 5D IV, D810 and A7 RII at the same time and I preferred 5D IV because it was a more complete package (ergonomy, menus, AF, DR, high-ISO, colours, touch screen, Dual Pixel AF etc..). D850 came 1 year after 5D IV and it is just natural to be better.
And, well, 7D II was the best ASP-C action DSLR when it was released.


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## ozturert (Jan 16, 2019)

woodman411 said:


> This must roil Rishi and DPR. I suppose they'll say "the Japanese are misinformed, don't know anything about dynamic range, and they're stuck with a bunch of Canon lenses so they can't change... why don't they just listen to us and buy Sony?!"


Agreed. "ISO invariance", "push shadows by 5 stops" have become like the only thing to make a camera good.


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## jayphotoworks (Jan 16, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> For stills they are behind on one single overblown spec (DR).
> 
> Sorry for the rant, but I get sick and tired of the "Canon sensors are behind" meme. I'll concede the 4k issue. I'll even concede that Canon has a readout speed issue they need to resolve that probably holds the EOS R frame rate back. (And is probably also the issue with FF 4k.) But in terms of stills IQ they are not behind. We are splitting hairs debating 42/45/50mp or 13.6/14.8 stops of DR.



You've just said yourself that you are sick and tired of hearing "Canon sensors are behind." But the reality is that you've even qualified why they are behind in certain areas. In addition, you probably won't stop hearing about this until "Canon sensors are finally ahead." Look, I agree that Canon dominates in market share, as they've decided their target audience doesn't care about that extra 1ev, non ff crop, ibis, readout speeds, or any number of specs that competition has, but that doesn't diminish the fact that the competition has features the equivalent Canon body does not. The minority of us that utilize some of those features are not Sony fanyboy spec sheet chasers. We legitimately utilize some of these spec sheet items that are simply not available in the Canon ecosystem.

The sooner you allow yourself to validate that people like us do exist without trying to minimize those differences of why we choose the competition, the sooner the conversation can be more productive in general as some of us do really understand that Canon is successful and aren't *******.


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## Architect1776 (Jan 16, 2019)

Interesting all the talk about innovation.
The EOS innovation still has not been matched by anyone. Now Canon has added the R to the stable. Again leaving all another 30 years behind. As far as sensors there isn't a whit of real difference and only Nikony fanboys cling to the ISO 100 DXO score as innovation. A real photographer could take a Rebel T1i and produce better work than all the naysayer vloggers combined. There are pixel peepers with no talent except for peeping then there are those who use older equipment and still blow the peepers away.
Yes the latest is fun but how many here can actually out perform their current equipment? None I would dare say.
And yes I do think Sony color Science SOC is horrid.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 16, 2019)

ethanz said:


> But but, Canon is *******? Sony is taking over.
> 
> Who knew Ricoh made DSLRs?





In a recent Steve Huff video about the Z 6, he talked about the way images out of different systems had distinctive looks with examples (at ~5:15): Canon (skin tones, more pastel colors), Nikon (gritty, film like, rich colors), and Sony (more digital). That stuff will impact every image and either necessitate more work in post if you want to change it. But, it is subjective and not part of a spec list anywhere.[/QUOTE]

The outputs are part of the processing software and determined by the preferences of those who created the software and set parameters such as saturation, sharpening, etc. They are not determined by the sensor, but can be influenced by a bayer filter, assuming one is used. So, it should be expected that various people will prefer one over the other. Thats a good thing, some seem to think that they all should meet their preferences, but then there would be no choice.


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## Talys (Jan 16, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> Interesting all the talk about innovation.
> A real photographer could take a Rebel T1i and produce better work than all the naysayer vloggers combined. There are pixel peepers with no talent except for peeping then there are those who use older equipment and still blow the peepers away.



Don't you shoot test patterns with tripods and studio lights at 11fps? I thought that was what all real photographers did. 

I still like my t2i, which I still use. A good shot from it is just a good shot, and nobody knows or cares what body was used. Frankly, the only reason I don't use it more is that it doesn't use lpe6 batteries.


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## dak723 (Jan 16, 2019)

windsorc said:


> Imagine what they could do if they had Sony sensors. Oh hold on, everyone should buy Canon because of the lenses and the colors, right? Thankfully we have Sony, Fuji and Nikon as competitors so we have some technical innovation, maybe this is the year Canon surprise us with some great cameras. Let's be honest, the 7dII was disappointing, the 5d iv was disappointing compared to the D850, the EOS R is generally thought to be worse than the Z6. I know the Canon cameras are good enough, but we'd alll like to see Canon take a lead for a change.



Funny how so many folks who are "new here" do nothing but repeat the same stereotypical Sony fanboy comments. 

Saying "Let's be honest" is a very dishonest way to start expressing what is merely your opinion and not "honesty' at all. Neither the 7d II, the 5d IV were disappointing to the vast majority of buyers and users. And if you want to discuss innovation, exactly where does canon fall short? Is it in taking the lead with a FF camera with a fully articualting screen? How about the only mirrorless camera with a sensor protection curtain? How about a couple of thre R lenses which are not matched by any Sony or Nikon lenses? Best touch screen? The best EVF according to many reviewers? And no one has yet matched the DPAF which is now many years old.


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## woodman411 (Jan 16, 2019)

Kharan said:


> Why!? Their employer is Amazon, and *they* are happy with sales, no matter of which brand. However, Canon's success has done nothing to revert the abysmal trend of the camera market (and neither has any other company), so this still remains a pyrrhic victory for them.
> Also, it bears repeating: the Japanese market is very special in its preferences. It gravitates strongly towards mirrorless cameras, and entry-level ones at that. It's 100% price-sensitive, unlike the US or Europe, where more expensive mirrorless models have fared better than dirt-cheap shovelware.



It's in the review-site's interest to level the playing field. If there is one dominant and superior player, the smaller players don't really matter, there is no need to have a review site. Seen this many times in other areas - cars, mobile devices, etc. magazine/review sites will favor the underdog over the dominant maker (eg. Toyota, Apple, and yes, Canon). When the playing *seems* level, it makes the review-site more relevant.


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## Diltiazem (Jan 16, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yeah, but that was before wide availability of the a7III, also known to some as *the spec sheet that rocked the world*. I’m sure that once sales of that awesomeness are included, those numbers will.....not really change.


Canon lost about 4% market share in DSLR but gained about 10% in mirrorless. So, there probably is a net gain for Canon in the ILC market. If something similar happened worldwide then Canon's overwhelming dominance is unlikely to change, it may even increase. In any case, a7III probably is Sony's first successful camera and it may have prevented Sony from losing ILC market share. Time will tell.


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## dtaylor (Jan 17, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> You've just said yourself that you are sick and tired of hearing "Canon sensors are behind." But the reality is that you've even qualified why they are behind in certain areas. In addition, you probably won't stop hearing about this until "Canon sensors are finally ahead."



If we're going to split hairs to defend rhetoric, then let's do it right. I'm shooting 50mp. Why is Sony behind? When will they finally be ahead?



> The sooner you allow yourself to validate that people like us do exist without trying to minimize those differences of why we choose the competition,



Please. I'm not "invalidating" you. If you want Sony, buy Sony. I'm just tired of Sony fans..and certain major review sites...exaggerating every single Sony advantage while ignoring every single Sony disadvantage. My post was directed at the 'Sony is always best in every way and Canon is *******' fanboys.

The systems are different. By all means buy the one you think best serves your needs.


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## Talys (Jan 17, 2019)

Kharan said:


> Why!? Their employer is Amazon, and *they* are happy with sales, no matter of which brand. However, Canon's success has done nothing to revert the abysmal trend of the camera market (and neither has any other company), so this still remains a pyrrhic victory for them.



This is why when I walk into a camera shop, the sales guy asks me what I shoot, which, remarkably, is always the best system ever.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 17, 2019)

Kharan said:


> Why!? Their employer is Amazon, and *they* are happy with sales, no matter of which brand.


But perhaps they are more happy with sales of some brands than others? That’s certainly true (and has been reported on) for other types of products, where their search results will serve up items that generate more profit for Amazon higher on the list. As I’ve stated elsewhere, a local brick-and-mortar shop owner previously told me that Canon’s margins for him were lower than other manufacturers, and it cut into his profits selling Canon compared to other brands (and Canon’s assurances that volume would make up for it wasn’t bearing out for him). I have no idea if that’s what’s going on with Amazon/DPR, but it is certainly a possibility...and if true, could be a rationale for bias in DPR’s reviews.


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## Alastair Norcross (Jan 17, 2019)

windsorc said:


> Imagine what they could do if they had Sony sensors. Oh hold on, everyone should buy Canon because of the lenses and the colors, right? Thankfully we have Sony, Fuji and Nikon as competitors so we have some technical innovation, maybe this is the year Canon surprise us with some great cameras. Let's be honest, the 7dII was disappointing, the 5d iv was disappointing compared to the D850, the EOS R is generally thought to be worse than the Z6. I know the Canon cameras are good enough, but we'd alll like to see Canon take a lead for a change.


If you were disappointed by the 7DII, you obviously didn't use it enough, or perhaps didn't use it at all. I loved my 7D, but the 7DII is so much better. The upgrade from 7D to 7DII was the biggest model upgrade in Canon DSLR history. Everything about the already excellent 7D was improved. Perhaps a spec-obsessed gadget freak, who wasn't interested in actually using the 7DII to take pictures, could have been disappointed by a cursory reading of the spec sheet (but even then, it didn't take too much reading comprehension to see what a great upgrade it was). But no actual photographer could have been disappointed with it, after actually using it.


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## Kharan (Jan 17, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> But perhaps they are more happy with sales of some brands than others? That’s certainly true (and has been reported on) for other types of products, where their search results will serve up items that generate more profit for Amazon higher on the list. As I’ve stated elsewhere, a local brick-and-mortar shop owner previously told me that Canon’s margins for him were lower than other manufacturers, and it cut into his profits selling Canon compared to other brands (and Canon’s assurances that volume would make up for it wasn’t bearing out for him). I have no idea if that’s what’s going on with Amazon/DPR, but it is certainly a possibility...and if true, could be a rationale for bias in DPR’s reviews.



That sounds strange to me, as Canon used to have the best profit margins in the industry - that, there, is probably 50% responsible for their leading position in sales. The other 40% is their synergetic sales and distribution network - it really helps to have something as far-reaching as a printer business to get into big retail, especially in this age of cameras not being stocked anymore. Olympus, Pentax and Panasonic have all but disappeared from big box stores. Even Nikon has been dropped by retailers worldwide, which put the hurt in their sales numbers after 2015.
The remaining 10% is due to lens lineup or other technical criteria. It's not that important for the mass market, but it's become more and more critical as entry-level buyers dry up, and I haven't seen Canon respond quickly enough to this reality.
Amazon, with their huge volume and low overhead, can easily afford to sell the brand that people like the most, regardless of a specific product margin. Hell, I'm sure that if Pentax released the hottest camera of 2019 tomorrow, Amazon would gladly ramp up their K-mount offerings in a heartbeat, while DPR would still bash the brand like they always do


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## Talys (Jan 18, 2019)

Kharan said:


> Amazon, with their huge volume and low overhead, can easily afford to sell the brand that people like the most, regardless of a specific product margin.



With Amazon, it's not like a brick-and-mortar, where stocking Fuji might mean not stocking Olympus. They just either directly sell or sell via FBA (fulfillment by Amazon) nearly everything that's moderately popular, regardless of margin.


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## ozturert (Jan 18, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> ....but that doesn't diminish the fact that the competition has features the equivalent Canon body does not.....


Now here is the shocking news for you: But that doesn't diminish the fact that the Canon has features the equivalent competition body does not.
You get my point? You don't, if you are stuck with DxO numbers...


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## Nelu (Jan 18, 2019)

Alastair Norcross said:


> But no actual photographer could have been disappointed with it, after actually using it.


So not true!
I was disappointed with it and I returned it after a week of getting very fast bursts of soft photos!
Not necessarily out-of-focus photos but soft photos, and that's compared to the 5D Mark III, not the original 7D. And no, the AF micro adjustment didn't help...
I tried to use the 7D Mark II for bird photography and frankly it was useless to me. Maybe I got a bad one but I didn't want to have anything to do with it and I returned it in a week, as I already stated.
Nelu


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## jayphotoworks (Jan 21, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> If we're going to split hairs to defend rhetoric, then let's do it right. I'm shooting 50mp. Why is Sony behind? When will they finally be ahead?
> 
> Please. I'm not "invalidating" you. If you want Sony, buy Sony. I'm just tired of Sony fans..and certain major review sites...exaggerating every single Sony advantage while ignoring every single Sony disadvantage. My post was directed at the 'Sony is always best in every way and Canon is *******' fanboys.
> 
> The systems are different. By all means buy the one you think best serves your needs.



Then simply accept the things the competition does better today is the focus of mainstream reviews, while the things that Canon does better is not. DR, 4K Crop, Readout, IBIS and FPS are some of things in focus these days in reviews which Canon is not great at or doesn't have. I don't know why this matters to you since those negative reviews and Sony fans haven't affected Canon's market share at all; in fact Canon continues to grow. The only negative impact is the ego's of those Canon shooters who are upset their purchase decisions have not been reviewed in the best light and are tired of why Canon doesn't get reviewed favorably these days...


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 21, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> The only negative impact is the ego's...


Interesting that you mention egos in the context of people visiting canonrumors to tout positive reviews of Sony cameras.


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## jayphotoworks (Jan 21, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Interesting that you mention egos in the context of people visiting canonrumors to tout positive reviews of Sony cameras.



Sometimes I wonder if I'm just a glutton for punishment trying to convince Canon shooters why the competition might be better in certain circumstances on a Canonrumors forum no less. I'm not intentionally trying to tout positive reviews of Sony cameras, but it is odd that members find one or many of the mainstream reviewers that have quite a following either technically inaccurate, anti-Canon or simply an entertainment outlet because it doesn't immediately align with their ideal brand. That includes DXO, DPR, Tony Northrup and others. Where are the large mainstream sites that praise Canon for its efforts so we can contrast this dialog with something else?

I'll agree sites and reviewers have their own agendas. DPR might be motivated because of its acquisition by Amazon. DXO might be motivated simply to be controversial. Tony might be a tech geek that likes to tout the latest and greatest purely anecdotally. But at the end of the day, they've intentionally or un-intentionally put Sony products in a good light (to the chagrin of those shooting with the competition apparently). 

I'll agree that DPR might have taken missteps in the past with certain technical details regarding their reviews. But does it immediately deem them entertainment fodder? Give an entity enough time and you'll find plenty of issues even if it isn't without our own productive years. Olympus played fast and loose with their books, Sony got into every consumer electronic nook and cranny and dropped them even faster, Canon denied focusing issues on its top sports flagship for months until enough negative reviews came around and Nikon had its oil spots and failed experiments (keymission, aps-c compacts and 1 series).

I think we can at least take a step back and try to understand the merits of each of these companies/entities and maybe give them a second chance or hear what they have to say?


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## Mikehit (Jan 21, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> Then simply accept the things the competition does better today is the focus of mainstream reviews, while the things that Canon does better is not. DR, 4K Crop, Readout, IBIS and FPS are some of things in focus these days in reviews which Canon is not great at or doesn't have. I don't know why this matters to you since those negative reviews and Sony fans haven't affected Canon's market share at all; in fact Canon continues to grow. The only negative impact is the ego's of those Canon shooters who are upset their purchase decisions have not been reviewed in the best light and are tired of why Canon doesn't get reviewed favorably these days...




I expect that from reviews. When I come on to forums I would hope to find discussion that goes beyond spec-sheet quotes and read people having a broader view than 'what can I say that will get more clicks'.
And I really do not have an ego regards camera gear and know Canon's limitations. But, as dtaylor says, I also know where Canon is better than the competition something that you seem reluctant to acknowledge (or do so grudgingly).


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## Mikehit (Jan 21, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> Sometimes I wonder if I'm just a glutton for punishment trying to convince Canon shooters why the competition might be better in certain circumstances on a Canonrumors forum no less.



Please show us a quote where someone has denied that. I would go further and say that I have seen a widepsread acceptance that that is the case. 




jayphotoworks said:


> I think we can at least take a step back and try to understand the merits of each of these companies/entities and maybe give them a second chance or hear what they have to say?


I wish you would.


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## jayphotoworks (Jan 21, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> I expect that from reviews. When I come on to forums I would hope to find discussion that goes beyond spec-sheet quotes and read people having a broader view than 'what can I say that will get more clicks'.
> And I really do not have an ego regards camera gear and know Canon's limitations. But, as dtaylor says, I also know where Canon is better than the competition something that you seem reluctant to acknowledge (or do so grudgingly).



I accept that Canon is better than the competition in lens selection, pro support and market share. They are also better at the top of end of sports camera performance with the 1DX2. If you want an OVF and class leading performance, there are no current options available outside of Nikon that can deliver a similar experience. I am not so much in agreement that they are better in ergonomics and color science since the gen 3 Sony cameras were introduced, but I can understand that some shooters that tried out Sony in their earlier days was probably met with a product that wasn't nearly as refined as the existing juggernauts. What I am, however reluctant to acknowledge is when posters say Canon is not behind in sensor tech. I'm not sure if this is because Canon has an R&D issue or simply because they don't need to push the envelope because their market doesn't need it, but that is simply where it sits today as highlighted in quite a number of reviews.


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## Ian_of_glos (Jan 21, 2019)

Talys said:


> This is why when I walk into a camera shop, the sales guy asks me what I shoot, which, remarkably, is always the best system ever.


This has not been my experience and it is one of the main reasons why I buy most of my camera equipment in person by visiting reputable camera shops rather than ordering on line.
My first digital camera was a Canon 7D but when I arrived at the shop I had been planning to buy a Nikon D7000. The sales assistance allowed me to try both cameras and eventually convinced me that the 7D was the better option.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 21, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> ...a product that wasn't nearly as refined as the existing juggernauts.


So an appropriate appellation for the a7III and a9 is:

*jug·ger·naut* /ˈjəɡərˌnôt/ _noun_
1. a huge, powerful, and overwhelming force or institution?

Careful, your bias is showing. 



jayphotoworks said:


> What I am, however reluctant to acknowledge is when posters say Canon is not behind in sensor tech.


Who says that? I’ve seen widespread acknowledgement on CR that Canon sensors have been behind others on a selected few metrics (low ISO DR, readout speed) for years. So it seems you’re reluctant to acknowledge your own strawman argument, I guess that’s a good thing?


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## Kit. (Jan 21, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> I am not so much in agreement that they are better in ergonomics and color science since the gen 3 Sony cameras were introduced, but I can understand that some shooters that tried out Sony in their earlier days was probably met with a product that wasn't nearly as refined as the existing juggernauts.


What are you talking about? When it comes to ILCs, Sony is Minolta, one of The Big Three (and you know the other two).



jayphotoworks said:


> What I am, however reluctant to acknowledge is when posters say Canon is not behind in sensor tech. I'm not sure if this is because Canon has an R&D issue or simply because they don't need to push the envelope because their market doesn't need it, but that is simply where it sits today as highlighted in quite a number of reviews.


Have you considered other explanations? Such as: Canon's sensor tech is fine, what we see in the "quite a number of reviews" is the price Canon's sensors need to pay for DPAF and Canon's stubborn reliance on its own fabs for its DSP chips?


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## Pape (Jan 22, 2019)

canon looks just bad atm 1d 7d and 5d are old cameras and other cameras are pretty much consumer level,where sensor must be made cheap.


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## Ozarker (Jan 22, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> Sometimes I wonder if I'm just a glutton for punishment trying to convince Canon shooters why the competition might be better in certain circumstances on a Canonrumors forum no less. I'm not intentionally trying to tout positive reviews of Sony cameras, but it is odd that members find one or many of the mainstream reviewers that have quite a following either technically inaccurate, anti-Canon or simply an entertainment outlet because it doesn't immediately align with their ideal brand. That includes DXO, DPR, Tony Northrup and others. Where are the large mainstream sites that praise Canon for its efforts so we can contrast this dialog with something else?
> 
> I'll agree sites and reviewers have their own agendas. DPR might be motivated because of its acquisition by Amazon. DXO might be motivated simply to be controversial. Tony might be a tech geek that likes to tout the latest and greatest purely anecdotally. But at the end of the day, they've intentionally or un-intentionally put Sony products in a good light (to the chagrin of those shooting with the competition apparently).
> 
> ...


I think the mistake is equating the number of a persons "followers" and "likes" on a website with popularity, agreement, accuracy, or (most importantly) relevance. It's real easy to click "follow" and never see that website again. To me, the best gauge of whether or not a company is hitting the bulls-eye for what people want and desire is sales. It matters not what Sony feature is the latest craze, if people ain't buying it, people don't care about it... no matter what the internet reviewers ($reviewing for clicks$) say. In the internet review world, controversy = money. In the camera sales world: Creating a product the vast majority want = money. There's a vast difference between the two.

Canon ain't the slouch many would have others believe.


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## ethanz (Jan 22, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Canon ain't the slouch many would have others believe.



Your wife is sure getting a lot of exposure on CR. She could be a model on here lol.


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## ethanz (Jan 22, 2019)

Pape said:


> canon looks just bad atm 1d 7d and 5d are old cameras and other cameras are pretty much consumer level,where sensor must be made cheap.



If only there was a dis-like button for your post... The 1dx2 is still one of the top cameras on the market, especially for video. 5d4 isn't bad. And there is a thing called product life cycle. We just happen to be on the latter half of their product cycle.


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## jayphotoworks (Jan 22, 2019)

Kit. said:


> What are you talking about? When it comes to ILCs, Sony is Minolta, one of The Big Three (and you know the other two).



My first foray into digital cameras was the 10D which eventually led to a long run with Canon up until the 1DX, although I was shooting in parallel a D3 when Nikon shifted over to CMOS from CCD. Minolta was late into the DSLR game and never fully caught up to Nikon and Canon and was never quite on my radar. Even though Sony acquired Minolta and started their ‎α system with backwards compatibility, all of their initial releases were targeted at the entry/mid level market for quite some time. By 2007, I already had my 1D3 on order and there was nothing remotely close from Sony. My perception of Sony at that time was more of a consumer electronics company and less of a serious camera manufacturer. So Minolta might have been one of the big three, but they were never on par with the more established players in the DSLR era. The selling off of assets and transition to Sony while Nikon/Canon continued to build momentum didn't help either.



Kit. said:


> Have you considered other explanations? Such as: Canon's sensor tech is fine, what we see in the "quite a number of reviews" is the price Canon's sensors need to pay for DPAF and Canon's stubborn reliance on its own fabs for its DSP chips?



I'm not positing that Canon needs to do anything to improve their sensors or meet the "competition's" spec sheet. They are fine what they are doing today and are selling cameras well. Canon has a made a decision to forge ahead along a certain path, and they've accepted the related press that follows.


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## Pape (Jan 22, 2019)

ethanz said:


> If only there was a dis-like button for your post... The 1dx2 is still one of the top cameras on the market, especially for video. 5d4 isn't bad. And there is a thing called product life cycle. We just happen to be on the latter half of their product cycle.


Yes i was just telling why they dont be as superior as they should. Making mirrorless opening slows down their top model updates too. When sony can make new updates every year. and they need do too if they want catch canon someday.
Sorry if it sounded like something wrong on top canons .They should be still best cameras around.


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## Ozarker (Jan 22, 2019)

ethanz said:


> Your wife is sure getting a lot of exposure on CR. She could be a model on here lol.


It's good for an old woman's self esteem.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 22, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> It's good for an old woman's self esteem.


Until she reads your post.


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## Ozarker (Jan 23, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Until she reads your post.


hahaha. Believe it or not, she'd rather I take photos of 18 year olds than her. I'm happy.


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## jayphotoworks (Jan 23, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I think the mistake is equating the number of a persons "followers" and "likes" on a website with popularity, agreement, accuracy, or (most importantly) relevance. It's real easy to click "follow" and never see that website again. To me, the best gauge of whether or not a company is hitting the bulls-eye for what people want and desire is sales. It matters not what Sony feature is the latest craze, if people ain't buying it, people don't care about it... no matter what the internet reviewers ($reviewing for clicks$) say. In the internet review world, controversy = money. In the camera sales world: Creating a product the vast majority want = money. There's a vast difference between the two.
> 
> Canon ain't the slouch many would have others believe.



I think I've covered this already, but all personalities or reviewers have their own agendas, but the end product is what you see in the public domain for better or worse depending on where you stand. We can't control the dialog, but i'm not sure I would label all of them controversial or biased. You can choose to listen to the dialog or not, but if you do, you can determine if the criticism is fair and weigh your own opinions from there. Personally, the best gauge of whether a company is hitting the bulls-eye for me is whether those products fit my requirements. There is a vast difference between a company's market share and how well it is suited for my own needs!

Btw, nice photo. I don't shoot stills much anymore, but I always respect people shooting with off camera lighting because I know how much work it is lugging around heavy pelican cases and balancing light setups. I was always conflicted whether to bring a bag of strobes or wheel around the ranger pack. I did plenty of that back in my strobist days..


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## jayphotoworks (Jan 23, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Who says that? I’ve seen widespread acknowledgement on CR that Canon sensors have been behind others on a selected few metrics (low ISO DR, readout speed) for years. So it seems you’re reluctant to acknowledge your own strawman argument, I guess that’s a good thing?



The discussion didn't really start this way. I was commenting on dtaylor's post about his/her ambivalence towards Canon sensor criticism. So my argument was strictly in response to that, but I may have unintentionally expanded the scope of the argument to include others that do not belong in successive replies. This I can acknowledge and retract accordingly.


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## Ozarker (Jan 23, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> I think I've covered this already, but all personalities or reviewers have their own agendas, but the end product is what you see in the public domain for better or worse depending on where you stand. We can't control the dialog, but i'm not sure I would label all of them controversial or biased. You can choose to listen to the dialog or not, but if you do, you can determine if the criticism is fair and weigh your own opinions from there. Personally, the best gauge of whether a company is hitting the bulls-eye for me is whether those products fit my requirements. There is a vast difference between a company's market share and how well it is suited for my own needs!
> 
> Btw, nice photo. I don't shoot stills much anymore, but I always respect people shooting with off camera lighting because I know how much work it is lugging around heavy pelican cases and balancing light setups. I was always conflicted whether to bring a bag of strobes or wheel around the ranger pack. I did plenty of that back in my strobist days..


Thanks, but there was no flash used in the photo.


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