# 600EX RT + transmitter + 5d MK2 Sync speed



## Bart van Dieken (Apr 28, 2012)

I decided to buy the the new 600EX RT + ST-E3-RT transmitter instead of a 580EX + PW miniTT1 + flexTT5...

The main reasons for my choice are:
- moneywise inclusing PW or Canon ST-E3-RT it doenst really matter... they are about the same price.
- The canon transmitter looks very promising in terms of intuitif operation and layout of controls.
- it's simple and there is no need for any extra things to put on the hotshoes on my strobist gear.

The reason why I havent bought the 600EX RT is the sync speed.
I've read that the manual states that the high speed sync only works on 5d MK3 or 1DX...but some people say that the high speed sync works on the 5d MK2 and 60D as wel...?

*Can anyone of you confirm please by first hand experience that the 5dMk2 + 600EX RT + wireless transmitter works with high sync speed up to 1/4000s (off camera) ?? *

Thanks in advance for your answer!!

Regards,

Bart


----------



## AvTvM (May 3, 2012)

sorry, no first-hand experience myself, since I am currently holding back on further investments into Canon gear ... 

but Syl Arena clearly states and demonstrates, that HSS works on 5D2 [and presumably other EOS models]. Here he is taking it to 1/1000s but there is no reaseon to believe it would not work up to 1/8000s ... other than the question whether there will be enough light left at that setting. 

-> see page 4:
http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/syl_arena_new_speedlite_system.do

One question around HSS was, whether using the Canon 600EX-RT and/or ST-E3 would lower the [non-HSS] X-sync speed for Canon EOS bodies released prior to 2012 models [5D 3 and 1D X]. Canon states that X-Sync in wireless radio operation would be lower by 1 stop for "older" EOS bodies, e.g. for 5D2 only 1/100s instead of the usual 1/200s, or 1/125s for 7D instead of regular 1/250s. In Syl Arena's tests this limitation did not come into play on his 5D2. He states:

_"When I changed the shutter speed from 1/125sec to 1/250sec, the camera shifted the trio of 600EX-RTs into High-Speed Sync (which I had previously set as my sync option on the ST-E3-RT attached to my camera’s hotshoe). At 1/500sec, E-TTL continued to increase the flash power to accommodate for loss of flash power in HSS. Then, at 1/1000sec, the flash power appears to dim, not because of sync issues, but rather because HSS consumes more power as the shutter gets faster.
My experience, across nearly 1,000 shots with the new Speedlite system, is that there are no issues with sync on either the EOS 5D Mark II or EOS 60D cameras. Of course, the experience of others, using different cameras under different circumstances, may yield different results."
_


----------



## AvTvM (May 3, 2012)

Neil van Niekerk also confirms the findings regarding HSS with 5DII plus radio-wireless 600EX-RT
http://neilvn.com/tangents/2012/05/01/review-canon-speedlite-600ex-rt/

_3. High-Speed Sync
On p.51 of the manual it states that for cameras prior to 2011 then the max flash sync speed is one increment lower. I assume this means that for cameras like the Canon 5D Mark II , the max flash sync speed with the 600EX-RT is now 1/100. In fact, a (!) warning signal appears on the speedlite’s display at any shutter speed higher than that. The manual also states that HSS isn’t possible.

Well, I can confirm that HSS is indeed possible. And from a few tests I have done, it seems like the output takes a small knock at 1/200 and HSS .. perhaps 1/3rd of a stop by the looks of it. At 1/250th, there is a distinct drop in flash output. This is consistent with how speedlites work in HSS mode. So I’m not sure if I am missing something here, but I would have to disagree with the manual on this. HSS is indeed possible with the 5D Mark II, and quite possibly then with other previous models as well._


----------



## AvTvM (May 3, 2012)

but thirdly, Jim Heine is finding issues with 5D2 sync - please check the link, he also got some clear test shots to demonstrate the problem:
http://jimheinephotography.com/2012/04/07/canon-600ex-rt-radio-flash-review/

_Sync on older cameras (such as 5d Mark II) is a problem. Oh, this is almost a deal killer. It’s bad. With my testing, to FULLY sync a full power slave flash with a 5d Mark II using the radio features of the 600EX, you have to set your shutter to 1/100(!) or slower. I noticed no difference between 1/80 and 1/100. 1/125 isn’t bad, but by 1/160 a shadow on the bottom of the frame is quite noticeable. So 1/125 is probably usable and 1/160 in some situations, but know the shutter shadow will be there. You’re going to have to keep at 1/100 if you’re shooting on a seamless or in any critical applications. You may want to keep a set of third party radio triggers if you still shoot with an older camera and need more sync speed. Keep in mind, these test photos aren’t perfect. They were just for personal use before I knew I was writing the review. But the differences are MUCH more noticeable at a larger size and especially when you flip back and forth. I haven’t tested any other cameras, except for two 5d Mark IIs. _

he also points out some of the other major shortcomings of the new Canon flash system, that should clearly not exist in a brand new system at the prices Canon is charging:

* the cool "Group mode" which frees us from the stupid Canon A:B ratio stuff and allows Nikon-CLS-style control for up to 5 flash groups - mixed ETTL and manual operation - only works with 2012 EOS cameras ... i.e. 5d 3 and 1 D X - but not with any of the previous EOS bodies - so NOT on 5D2 or 7D
* still no 2nd curtain sync in wireless operation
* ETTL still too low by 2/3 to 1 EV when flash is bounced
* no focus assist with ST-E3 ... and no line-of-sight optical control of 430/580s
* user interface - button size and layout as well as menu system improved ... but still rather poor 
* gels included with 600EX-RT are a joke


----------



## Drizzt321 (May 3, 2012)

The other thing is if you use PW or other radio trigger you can easily use it for trigger packs/monolights as well, even if they have to be manually adjusted, which as far as I know the Canon RF trigger can't do. At least, I haven't heard of any non-Speedlite receivers.


----------



## AvTvM (May 4, 2012)

Drizzt321 said:


> The other thing is if you use PW or other radio trigger you can easily use it for trigger packs/monolights as well, even if they have to be manually adjusted, which as far as I know the Canon RF trigger can't do. At least, I haven't heard of any non-Speedlite receivers.



Up to now Canon has not even announced receivers for their own speedlites (580/II, 430/II). I really hope they will - and at a reasonable price. Additional non-speedlite receivers along with (firmware) improvements to iron out the current flaws and limitations of the system would make it a huge success. Canon would sell a ton of the devices and have a major USP for their DSLR system compared to Nikon and others. 

In reality I am afraid, Canon will move very slowly and half-heartedly on this ... until Nikon brings out a way better system.


----------



## Sycotek (May 4, 2012)

I have st-e3-rt + 2x600ex-rt on a 7D - hss works and initially i didn't think there were any limitations. However at 1:1 at 1/250th you do get banding if you use it as a studio strobe in a shoot through.

at 1/125 (as the manual suggests) it doesn't have any banding.

outdoors HSS you don't notice the banding if there is decent ambient - i personally have sync'd at 1/8000th without issues and never noticed any banding.

I'm fine with it the way it is - i'll have it on a 1DX shortly so not too fussed. However the ready beep issue is annoying (see my post) this is my only real annoyance with the system.


----------



## kpk1 (May 4, 2012)

I'm interesed in the next scenarios, how it deals with:
1. 600EX-RT wireless group mode on a 5D2. It works ? 
2. Having a 5D2 and a 5D3 both with 600EX-RT and 600EX-RT remotes, is there a chance to work together ? This means if the system with 5D2 is capable to be integrated in the same setup of remotes with a 5D3. Let's say using the group mode on the 5D3 and 5D2 at the same time, or using the group mode on the 5D3 and normal remote radio wireless mode on 5D2.
I have PW and 580s for now and I want to upgrade but keep my 5D2.


----------



## AvTvM (May 4, 2012)

kpk1 said:


> I'm interesed in the next scenarios, how it deals with:
> 1. 600EX-RT wireless group mode on a 5D2. It works ?
> 2. Having a 5D2 and a 5D3 both with 600EX-RT and 600EX-RT remotes, is there a chance to work together ? This means if the system with 5D2 is capable to be integrated in the same setup of remotes with a 5D3. Let's say using the group mode on the 5D3 and 5D2 at the same time, or using the group mode on the 5D3 and normal remote radio wireless mode on 5D2.
> I have PW and 580s for now and I want to upgrade but keep my 5D2.



1. unfortunately NO. Although it should only be a firmware isue.
2. also NO - as far as group mode and 5D2 is concerned and NO as far as radio control of 580's/430's is concerned..

You can trigger slaved 580's with a master 600EX-RT on cam using the old Canon "line of sight, optical" wireless.
That's the only c0onnection between the new radio system and previous Canon flashes.


----------



## Drizzt321 (May 4, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> Drizzt321 said:
> 
> 
> > The other thing is if you use PW or other radio trigger you can easily use it for trigger packs/monolights as well, even if they have to be manually adjusted, which as far as I know the Canon RF trigger can't do. At least, I haven't heard of any non-Speedlite receivers.
> ...



Yea, exactly my point. They haven't even announced the receivers. I'm pretty sure I'll be going with one of the 3rd party radio triggers sometime soon, maybe get a 3rd party speedlite to go along with it.


----------



## mabou2 (May 4, 2012)

Okay then,

Just got two 600's and ran a test using wireless transmitting.

Canon 5DmarkII on a tripod. TV. ISO 100

On-camera flash set to No Flash... transmitting only, every other setting at default..
Second flash set to all default as slave. Second flash at 90 degree (side light) of subject.
Both flashes to to HSS

Frame filled with the top of a white table, focussed on one of my kids stuffed animals. (Maybe a chart would have been cooler, but this was still a revealing test).

I shot the exact same image at every shutter speed ranging from 1/30sec to 1/8000 second.

ABSOLUTELY NO SHUTTER SYNC PROBLEM THROUGH THE ENTIRE RANGE.

I uploaded all of my images to Aperture and reviewed. Interestingly, after from 1/250 second to 1/500 second, the image dimmed by about a stop, then brightened back up again and stayed startlingly consistent all the way through 1/8000.

I repeated the test, waiting for each exposure until I heard the slave beep... and the results were identical.

Hopefully this helps someone.


----------



## ideaworx (May 5, 2012)

Sycotek said:


> I have st-e3-rt + 2x600ex-rt on a 7D - hss works and initially i didn't think there were any limitations. However at 1:1 at 1/250th you do get banding if you use it as a studio strobe in a shoot through.
> 
> at 1/125 (as the manual suggests) it doesn't have any banding.
> 
> ...



Where did you order the st-e3-rt from? I have one on backorder @ B&H, but no idea when it will be in stock.

Thanks Kindly,

Shane


----------



## Sycotek (May 6, 2012)

ideaworx said:


> Sycotek said:
> 
> 
> > I have st-e3-rt + 2x600ex-rt on a 7D - hss works and initially i didn't think there were any limitations. However at 1:1 at 1/250th you do get banding if you use it as a studio strobe in a shoot through.
> ...



Hi Shane - bought mine local in Perth - Western Australia from a shop called PRA.


----------



## Digirati (May 10, 2012)

You could also just buy two Speedlights (or more) and use one as a trigger. That's what I'm doing until my "3", trigger and grip ships.

I was testing with them the other day and very excited about using the entire setup on assignments.

Good luck!


----------



## wickidwombat (May 11, 2012)

I just use phottix odins and 580s
an amazing thing with the odins is they will sync to 1/8000 sec with any flash even studio strobes
you can mix with speedlights and even fire 580s at full power with higher sync speeds and not get the power loss generated by the HSS function


----------



## henrik12 (Jun 2, 2012)

Have anybody tried or heard about the 600ex-rt hss issue on a 1d mk-lV?

I can't find anything!

/henrik


----------



## Marsu42 (Jun 29, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> Up to now Canon has not even announced receivers for their own speedlites (580/II, 430/II). I really hope they will - and at a reasonable price.



The problem seems to be that Canon currently has problems with the "reasonable price" part. And if the receivers are nearly as expensive as the st-e3-rt controller, people might just upgrade their complete flash because you don't have to screw a receiver under each older one. 

What I'm hoping for is a receiver for dumb ttl and studio flashes that would make 3rd party systems obsolete - pretty please, Canon? We might even forgive you the fact that radio remote still doesn't work with 2nd curtain...



AvTvM said:


> In reality I am afraid, Canon will move very slowly and half-heartedly on this ... until Nikon brings out a way better system.



I'm sad to say that I don't think Canon will update the firmware of older bodies like the 5d2 to work with group flash, because that's the one really important thing that is better on the 5d3. Canon even went out of their way to conceal the fact that hss and radio flash seem to work without drawbacks on the 5d2 :-o


----------



## leGreve (Jun 30, 2012)

Just wanted to add in on the subject. I just got the 600ex rt and the st-e3-rt and used them for the first time on a wedding shoot.

I can confirm that you can enable high speed sync on the st-e3 and it will allow high speed shooting on the 5D mkii... I did syncs in the 1000s and the flash still served well as a fill in daylight sunny.
The mains issue though being that the flash gets hot fast and the batteries last somewhere around 500 shots.

Nevertheless... it possible. I did notice on some of the smaller speeds around the 200/500s that there is some power loss, but I can work out how this all fits together.

EDIT: by the way... I also got the Lastolite Ezybox (38cm X 38cm) and had the assistant fire it up in the air in the churc. At full power, even through the Ezybox, the flash provided a very nice ambient fill!


----------

