# Patent: Canon shows off optical formulas for APS-C RF mount kit lenses



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 3, 2021)

> Canon News has uncovered a patent with various APS-C RF mount lenses. On the Canon Rumors RF mount lens roadmap, I have had an RF 18-45mm f/4-5.6 IS STM for quite some time. I’ve always thought this was a strange focal length for full-frame image sensors based on Canon’s history of kit lens focal lengths.
> I have not heard anything about an APS-C image sensor equipped sensor for the RF mount in quite some time, but I still believe such a camera is part of Canon’s long-term plans.
> Canon RF-S 15-45mm F4-6.3
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## pererik_2000 (Jun 3, 2021)

I am waiting for the Rx0 series for APS-C. Start with a 90D equivalent (30 Mpix) + IBIS 8 stop


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 3, 2021)

6.3 is the new 5.6


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## Chaitanya (Jun 3, 2021)

Eagerly waiting for APS-C RF camera to use with 100mm L lens.


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## somebodE (Jun 3, 2021)

I am hoping for an R7 announcement late this fall. If they could do a 35-45MP sensor for an R7... maybe show off their quad pixel AF...


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## Stig Nygaard (Jun 3, 2021)

Well, if they do an "R7" I hope for an RF-S kit option something similar to my EF-S 15-85mm (and a wideangle zoom going down to at least 10mm). But good to see some activity nonetheless.

Don't forget there's also a patent for an _APS-C_ 100-400mm F5.6-7.1. Such a zoom is also to be found on CR's road-map, and it could be super-cool to announce together with an "R7" 

And recently some APS-C 55-250mm telezoom patents was discovered too.

I'm starting to become really optimistic on RF APS-C ...


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## Dragon (Jun 3, 2021)

Stig Nygaard said:


> Well, if they do an "R7" I hope for an RF-S kit option something similar to my EF-S 15-85mm (and a wideangle zoom going down to at least 10mm). But good to see some activity nonetheless.
> 
> Don't forget there's also a patent for an _APS-C_ 100-400mm F5.6-7.1. Such a zoom is also to be found on CR's road-map, and it could be super-cool to announce together with an "R7"
> 
> ...


I don't think there is any way of telling in any of these patents whether these designs are aimed at the RF mound or the M mount, but the apertures and focal lengths strongly suggest M to me. Also, note that Canon has released an EF to RF focal reducer, and it has been speculated that is aimed at the Cine camera bodies, but it should be noted that the crop mode video in the R5 is the most versatile all around mode with more depth of field. In that mode, you can shoot 4k/60p oversampled video that looks much better than the FF 60p video and as far as I can tell, there is no heating problem. I think the take away is don't get your hopes too high for an APS-c R any time soon. Cine cameras will stay at super35 for as long as possible because that is what cinematographers are most familiar with when calculating DOF, etc. and I can tell you from first hand experience with many of them that they don't accept change easily, not to mention that FF actually makes many cinema shots harder to optimize (65mm originals were famously had to shoot).

If these patents are M oriented, then the 100-400 seems the most likely as it would fill an obvious hole in the line.


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## unfocused (Jun 3, 2021)

I got my R5 a few weeks ago and am about to do something I thought I would never do – put both my 7DII and 5DIV up for sale. With the crop mode on the R5 there simply is no longer any need for me to use the 7D. 

There may be a market for a crop sensor R body, but I wonder just how large that market would be, when the current R system offers both a full frame and a crop sensor body in one. Not discounting it entirely, but I think it will have to wait until after Canon issues the R3, R1 and high-megapixel R body.


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## Dragon (Jun 3, 2021)

unfocused said:


> I got my R5 a few weeks ago and am about to do something I thought I would never do – put both my 7DII and 5DIV up for sale. With the crop mode on the R5 there simply is no longer any need for me to use the 7D.
> 
> There may be a market for a crop sensor R body, but I wonder just how large that market would be, when the current R system offers both a full frame and a crop sensor body in one. Not discounting it entirely, but I think it will have to wait until after Canon issues the R3, R1 and high-megapixel R body.


I particularly like the feature that the R5 recognizes an EF-s lens and automatically switches to crop mode. The R5 has pretty much taken over my FF activity, but do still use the M5 quite a bit because of its extreme portability. The high MP body will remove the last functional reason for a high end APS-c body (i.e. pixels on the bird). I think those wishing for another mini 1 series like the 7D line will likely not see their wishes fulfilled. In my experience shooting birds with the R5, FF is a huge advantage over my 90D for keeping the bird in the frame and more usable shots result in spite of the lower pixel density.


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## Stig Nygaard (Jun 3, 2021)

unfocused said:


> With the crop mode on the R5 there simply is no longer any need for me to use the 7D.



It's the old discussion repeated again and again on these comment threads and all photography forums.
But for someone shooting both fullframe and crop, I understand demand is considerable smaller for a crop camera when high-res fullframe cameras has a crop mode.
But I'm _not_ a fullframe user. I want a "cheap", compact and light system, and preferable more light and compact than my current APS-C DSLR system. Yes, you can mount cheaper, lighter and smaller (EF-S) lenses using crop-mode on an R5, but the price of an R5 is _way beyond_ what I ever can justify paying for a camera. If the R6 was a 20megapixel crop-camera though, I would probably be shooting mirrorless now...


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## Josh Leavitt (Jun 3, 2021)

Please give me an RF-S variant of the EF-S 10-18mm IS STM lens while you're at it Canon.


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## unfocused (Jun 3, 2021)

Stig Nygaard said:


> It's the old discussion repeated again and again on these comment threads and all photography forums...
> ...I want a "cheap", compact and light system, and preferable more light and compact than my current APS-C DSLR system.



I understand, but as they say, "we don't know what we don't know." By that I mean, we don't know just how much of an impact on pricing the smaller sensor might have. It seems like most of the people wanting an R7 assume it will follow the pattern of the 7D -- that is, it will have high end R3 or R1 features with about the only compromise being the crop sensor. And that it will be priced significantly below the R5. 

What we don't know is just how much of a savings the smaller sensor represents. If the price differential remains what it was seven years ago, then we could see a crop sensor version at much lower cost, but if Canon has increased efficiencies in sensor production, then the smaller sensor might translate into only a small difference in pricing.


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## Stig Nygaard (Jun 3, 2021)

unfocused said:


> By that I mean, we don't know just how much of an impact on pricing the smaller sensor might have.


Yes, but I'm talking about complete system. Not just a camera (But as I said. Though kinda expensive, I would probably have been ready to pay for the R6 if it had a 20mp APS-C sensor).


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## dwarven (Jun 3, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> 6.3 is the new 5.6



1/3 stop more money for Canon, 1/3 stop less light for us


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## Dragon (Jun 3, 2021)

Stig Nygaard said:


> It's the old discussion repeated again and again on these comment threads and all photography forums.
> But for someone shooting both fullframe and crop, I understand demand is considerable smaller for a crop camera when high-res fullframe cameras has a crop mode.
> But I'm _not_ a fullframe user. I want a "cheap", compact and light system, and preferable more light and compact than my current APS-C DSLR system. Yes, you can mount cheaper, lighter and smaller (EF-S) lenses using crop-mode on an R5, but the price of an R5 is _way beyond_ what I ever can justify paying for a camera. If the R6 was a 20megapixel crop-camera though, I would probably be shooting mirrorless now...


If you want small and light, why not get an M6 II? My M5 is my "portable" camera and I use it quite a lot. I would like to see an M5 II (or equivalent), but an APS-c R doesn't make much sense to me and if it were to truly be a 7D II replacement, be prepared for at least a $2500 price tag. I suspect that price tag is why you haven't seen one and probably won't. Canon threw out a bargain with the 7D II and in this shrinking market, that is unlikely to happen again and they realize that a high (relatively) priced APS-c camera isn't likely to sell in enough volume to make it pay. Even the M5 wasn't a barn burner and it is actually a great little camera. The mass market wants easy and cheap, hence the M50 is one of the best selling cameras around.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 4, 2021)

I am surprised how many people think there will be an RF-S mount when neither Sony nor Nikon has separate mounts for APS-C.
For a smaller mount stick with EF-S or EF-M.


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## Mr Majestyk (Jun 4, 2021)

So we use a huge mount to make more glacially slow f/6.3 WA zooms. What the hell is wrong with f/5.6 at least!


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## Stig Nygaard (Jun 4, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I am surprised how many people think there will be an RF-S mount when neither Sony nor Nikon has separate mounts for APS-C.
> For a smaller mount stick with EF-S or EF-M.



Do people think there will be an "RF-S mount"? I think by "RF-S" people are referring to lenses.
Btw, I have newer thought of Canon's DSLR "APS-C mount" as being different from their fullframe mount. They both have EF-mounts in my eyes. It's just there's a mechanical obstacle on fullframe cameras preventing EF-S APS-C lenses being mounted by mistake. They don't need that obstacle on fullframe RF cameras though, because the fullframe cameras also have a crop-mode.
Also EF(/EF-S) mount is not smaller than RF. They have exact same diameter.
I don't know, maybe I misunderstood you?



Dragon said:


> If you want small and light, why not get an M6 II?



There has never been anything attractive for me about the EF-M system. I want a system that's highly focused for advanced users. To put things in perspective I have a system with 11 lenses for my 7DII, and though I have known it is the future, there has been nothing atractive for me in going mirrorless until Canon introduced their Animal AF on R5/R6.

So by small and lightweight, I'm _not_ talking about being "pocketable". I'm talking about something being convenient and versatile. A system where I feel I can carry a 3-4 lens kit when going on a "photowalk".


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## pererik_2000 (Jun 4, 2021)

unfocused said:


> I got my R5 a few weeks ago and am about to do something I thought I would never do – put both my 7DII and 5DIV up for sale. With the crop mode on the R5 there simply is no longer any need for me to use the 7D.
> 
> There may be a market for a crop sensor R body, but I wonder just how large that market would be, when the current R system offers both a full frame and a crop sensor body in one. Not discounting it entirely, but I think it will have to wait until after Canon issues the R3, R1 and high-megapixel R body.


It is a matter of cost and size, not all (me included) make money from their photography or want to carry such an expensive equipment around in the city. These are separate markets.


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## SnowMiku (Jun 4, 2021)

I can understand f/6.3 on the EF-M entry level lenses as it's designed to be cheaper, lightweight and portable. But I think f/5.6 entry level lenses would have been a better sell and a slight upgrade incentive on an R series crop as that would be a more higher up market then the M. I'm thinking they will release one or two models which are Rxx and R7.

I don't think there will be an RF-S mount, the full frame RFs will go into crop mode when one of these lenses are mounted.


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## unfocused (Jun 4, 2021)

pererik_2000 said:


> It is a matter of cost and size, not all (me included) make money from their photography or want to carry such an expensive equipment around in the city. These are separate markets.


But many on this forum would say that is exactly what the M system is for. Many of those wishing for an R7 crop sensor believe it will be significantly cheaper than the R5, but have most of the features of the R3 or R1. I'm simply suggesting that such a camera may not be as affordable as people wish.


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## dilbert (Jun 4, 2021)

How do these lenses compare in size with the EOS-M counterparts? Same size? Smaller? Double the size?


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## pererik_2000 (Jun 4, 2021)

unfocused said:


> But many on this forum would say that is exactly what the M system is for. Many of those wishing for an R7 crop sensor believe it will be significantly cheaper than the R5, but have most of the features of the R3 or R1. I'm simply suggesting that such a camera may not be as affordable as people wish.


Yes, but to me M feels like a dead end. And there is no M camera with IBIS, 24-32 Mpix sensor and EVF, will there ever be? I also would like to be able to use some RF lenses, there are some that look interesting also on a crop body. Why would it be so much more expensive than a 90D or 7D (which were my alternatives before I decided to go all mirrorless), add $500 for IBIS. I am also in the Sony system but I do not like the ergonomics and want to switch back to Canon, otherwise they have crop cameras with EVF, IBIS and a much more reasonable price than a R5 (which would be ideal disregarding the price).


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## Dragon (Jun 4, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I am surprised how many people think there will be an RF-S mount when neither Sony nor Nikon has separate mounts for APS-C.
> For a smaller mount stick with EF-S or EF-M.


The EF-M mount is nearly 1mm larger than Sony E mount with the same flange to focal plane distance, so Canon clearly already has that "RF-s" mount .


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 4, 2021)

pererik_2000 said:


> Yes, but to me M feels like a dead end. And there is no M camera with IBIS, 24-32 Mpix sensor and EVF, will there ever be?


Canon has a patent that could put IBIS in a small M camera so now would be a great time to announce one.
They already have the 24-32 MP with EVF covered.


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## Antono Refa (Jun 4, 2021)

Stig Nygaard said:


> It's the old discussion repeated again and again on these comment threads and all photography forums.
> But for someone shooting both fullframe and crop, I understand demand is considerable smaller for a crop camera when high-res fullframe cameras has a crop mode.
> But I'm _not_ a fullframe user. I want a "cheap", compact and light system, and preferable more light and compact than my current APS-C DSLR system. Yes, you can mount cheaper, lighter and smaller (EF-S) lenses using crop-mode on an R5, but the price of an R5 is _way beyond_ what I ever can justify paying for a camera. If the R6 was a 20megapixel crop-camera though, I would probably be shooting mirrorless now...


And the EOS-M doesn't meet your needs?

One of the reasons EOS-M cameras are smaller is the smaller throat diameter. The difference between 7D and 90D is the former appeals to photographers who use white super teles, so camera size isn't that important.


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## Stig Nygaard (Jun 4, 2021)

Antono Refa said:


> And the EOS-M doesn't meet your needs?
> 
> One of the reasons EOS-M cameras are smaller is the smaller throat diameter.


7DII is a large body, but it is not about camera size. It is about size and weight of a complete system and carry around kit. Which means it is in practice about lenses when it comes to size and weight. And it is very much about handling when it comes to body. I tried stepping a model down to 90D to see if never technology could compete with my 7DII, but no. 7DII is the best fit when it comes to handling (and some other features like AF configurability and options which 90D couldn't compete with). EOS-M has nothing to offer like the 7DII.

I'm an amateur, but I guess still an advanced user (with 11 lenses, including teles for action/wildlife) who wants a "pro" body. As I said in another comment, EF-M has never had anything to offer catching my eye. Neither when it comes to bodies, nor when it comes to lenses.

Man, I'm repeating myself. But I guess I want a cheaper and more handy APS-C version of a fullframe Pro-kit. For me to be happy with a mirrorless system, the camera probably needs to have some of the best AF-system and EVF available. And when I choose my future mirrorless camera/system, I choose my system for the next 20-30 years (or the rest of my active "photography-life"). And it got to be a system where I expect new development and exciting things will continue happening all the years. If continuing with Canon, that definitely means it has to be RF mount.


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## pererik_2000 (Jun 5, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Canon has a patent that could put IBIS in a small M camera so now would be a great time to announce one.
> They already have the 24-32 MP with EVF covered.


Yes, if they make an M5 mark 2? with IBIS it might be a filler for me (for my EF-S lenses), I also would prefer 32 Mpix. But will there be new good lenses? EF-M excludes RF lenses.


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## John Wilde (Jun 7, 2021)

Canon has a nice 32.5 MP APS-C sensor that's underutilized. They should put that in some new model.

Unfortunately, in their financial documents, Canon doesn't even acknowledge the existence of M, or APS-C anything.


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## AJ (Jun 7, 2021)

Blech. Those are crummy focal length / fstop ranges. With EF-S, Canon managed a 15-85/3.5-5.6 and Sigma produced a 17-70/2.8-4. Surely they can produce something more exciting/useful for RF or M, whatever these patents are meant for?


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## masterpix (Jun 8, 2021)

Ok, big question, why APS-C R camera at all? I understand that crop sensor gives 1.6X focal length, but the R5 had 45MP so you can crop from it already. You want the 100-500mm to be 160-800mm lens (which is the only reason I can think about APS-C advantage), there are those CAT lenses on the way 800,1200...

In mirrorless, you don't have the mirror to occupy the space between the lens and the sensor, so in both FF and APS-C the sensor will be at the same place. And therefore the RS and R lenses wil have similar "back side", so what is the benefit in having specific RS lens? 

Does Canon going to replicate the DX, DXX, DXXX, DXXXX hierarchy and create RX, RXX, RXXX... line up. That will certainly "kill" the M line.as it did to the D line..


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 8, 2021)

masterpix said:


> Ok, big question, why APS-C R camera at all?


Theoretically, an APS-C lens should be both smaller and cheaper.
Canon made plenty of super-35 EF-mount cinema lenses long after they had full-frame cinema cameras.


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## SnowMiku (Jun 8, 2021)

> masterpix said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, big question, why APS-C R camera at all? I understand that crop sensor gives 1.6X focal length, but the R5 had 45MP so you can crop from it already.


The answer is cost, lots of APS-C users do not want to pay for an R5 since it's more then what they need. Also, the 90D/M6 II sensor is 32MP which may give an advantage in some situations over the R5 cropped 17MP.


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## Ruined (Jun 8, 2021)

There is zero practical use or purpose for an RF-S mount. If you want smaller and cheaper EF-M.

If it does come to fruition the sole purpose of RF-S will be to sell people a starter cheaper and less capable camera which they can still buy regular RF lenses for - and eventually try to get them to upgrade to an R6 to better use the RF lenses they bought.

Marketing/upsell tactic would be this mounts only use case


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## Stig Nygaard (Jun 8, 2021)

SnowMiku said:


> The answer is cost, lots of APS-C users do not want to pay for an R5 since it's more then what they need.


Exactly (I'm never gonna pay the price of an R5 for a camera).
But also besides the modest megapixels in crop-mode, R5 doesn't shot faster than 6fps when shooting 14bit RAW-format (At least as far as I know this limitation also extends to crop-mode?). A crop-camera will do way better. In fact even the 7 years old 7DII does approx. 10fps RAW at full bit depth.


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## AJ (Jun 8, 2021)

SnowMiku said:


> The answer is cost, lots of APS-C users do not want to pay for an R5 since it's more then what they need.


Yes indeed, but it's not just the cost of the camera body. It's also the cost of lenses. Lenses like 18-55, 55-250, and 10-18 are bargains. For example, the 10-18 can be had for $300, while RF ultrawides currently are an expensive proposition.
I recently picked up a Tokina 14-20mm f/2 and have been using it for astrophotography. It's tack-sharp and coma-free, and I've had a lot of fun with it. The lens is not without its foibles, but at 369 USD I think I got a bargain.


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