# Too much chroma?



## sanj (Sep 3, 2014)

Friends does this photo look like it has too much chroma? Does it seem over processed?

Pls pls do advice, I think this photo has potential but I do not want to kill it with over processing. Thx in advance.


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## mackguyver (Sep 3, 2014)

sanj said:


> Friends does this photo look like it has too much chroma? Does it seem over processed?
> 
> Pls pls do advice, I think this photo has potential but I do not want to kill it with over processing. Thx in advance.


Interesting photo, particularly the action, expression of the mating lions, and observer in the frame, but I agree, it seems a little too punchy, especially since you lifted the shadows & midtones a bit. It also looks like there's a fair amount of vignetting in the top corners (I guess the bottom is cropped off) that give it extra contrast as well. Try reducing the reds just a bit, that should give you a better result. It also looks like the white balance is a bit cool - you might try warming it up a little. 

Those are just the things I would do, but we all process our photos differently, so I'd tweak it until you're happy with it.


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## Famateur (Sep 3, 2014)

Cool image. If it were mine, I'd probably paint some warmth over the foreground. It seems too cool compared to the blazing sky. Maybe add a little more contrast to the foreground, too.

I'd love to do a photo safari some day...


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## sanj (Sep 4, 2014)

Thank you Mackguyver and Fametuer.
Excellent suggestions! I will implement.


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## sanj (Sep 4, 2014)

Famateur said:


> Cool image. If it were mine, I'd probably paint some warmth over the foreground. It seems too cool compared to the blazing sky. Maybe add a little more contrast to the foreground, too.
> 
> I'd love to do a photo safari some day...



Yes you must do a photo safari. It is therapeutic! And it can be done with various budgets. Let me know if you need any advice.


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## Skirball (Sep 4, 2014)

I agree with both of them, and I'd combine their advice. I'd warm the foreground, then I'd take the saturation of the whole thing down a notch or two. I'd probably dim the foreground a tad too, as it just looks to light given the sunset.


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## IMG_0001 (Sep 4, 2014)

Definitely seems over processed to me, sorry.

I must also agree with the previous comments, particularly the foreground being too light. The lions are so light that they look like they've been added in post from another image. The light comes from the background so my brain tells me they should almost be silhouetted and they are the brightest thing after the sun. The fact that the tree just beside them is darker (as it should be) only emphasize the problem and makes the lions look artificial. To my eyes, the chroma is much less of an issue than the inconsistency in the brightness.

On the other hand, I must agree with the image having potential.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 4, 2014)

The foreground looks a little bit greenish-purple, I might try to warm it up a touch (not overboard, but a touch). The sunset has some parts that are a bit blown out, but it's tricky since if you save that then you might not have enough DR for the foreground. The saturation doesn't seem bad, sunsets can intense, even more than that.

It's tricky but maybe play a touch with foreground relative to bright sky relative brightness.


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## sanj (Apr 1, 2015)

Thank you so much for all your thoughts!


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## Marsu42 (Apr 1, 2015)

sanj said:


> Friends does this photo look like it has too much chroma? Does it seem over processed?



Yes, it looks over-processed to me, but lowering saturation and raising vibrance often fixes this in no time. As others have mentioned, the foreground is too cold - use LR's gradient to warm it a bit, you usually recognize this situation if there's a strange cyan cast you cannot get rid of even with changing tint.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 2, 2015)

I'm really not liking this one. The main problem I have with it is that the sun is the light source yet the ground is way too bright in comparison.

In that situation I would have tried to go to the left and lower to make the scene a true silhouette. I think you are stuck between a rock and a hard place with this one, if you process it to bring out the lions the sky looks weird and if you process it for the sky the lions are lost in their camouflage.


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## Orangutan (Apr 2, 2015)

It's a very nice shot, but I agree with some of the observations. What hit me was the bright, low-angle sun and light foreground, but no shadows in the foreground. The flat lighting seems to lose some depth. I'm not sure what you could do with that, maybe play with brightness a bit and see if it diminishes those problems.

On the other hand, it's a great capture and nice framing. It would be unfortunate to sacrifice a nice display of behavior on the alter of art.

Just my 2 cents.


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## sanj (Apr 6, 2015)

Thank you so much for the insightful comments.


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## Sporgon (Apr 6, 2015)

Agree this private; there is an imbalance between the luminosity of the ground and sky.


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## Aglet (Apr 7, 2015)

apply some gradient filters, one from the top, another from the bottom, and tweak to your liking.
This image won't respond too well to global adjustment.
LR or ACR front end in PS should be an adequate grad filter option.


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## sanj (Apr 7, 2015)

*Re: Too much chroma? RAW ADDED. *

Friends.
Here is the RAW. Am struggling with this one. Can anyone please take a shot at it? Thx...!!!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f0cdxfhrslnj1dx/_70C0768.CR2?dl=0


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## sanj (Apr 7, 2015)

Someone please.


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## mackguyver (Apr 7, 2015)

Sanjay, I'll give it a shot tonight


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## privatebydesign (Apr 8, 2015)

Something like this?


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## sanj (Apr 8, 2015)

Thank you so much Mackguyver.
I put both photos side by side and notice:
1. I did over do the chroma.
2. There is more contrast in my version which gives it a pop your version looks more natural.
3. The lions merge more in your version.

Great. I will wait a bit to see if anyone else gives me suggestions. After that I will re do this photo.


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## Aglet (Apr 8, 2015)

Thanks for letting us play w your raw file.
I don't know how the scene really appeared to you so I had some fun with it.
Some soft, romantic lighting, a little more of a skyscape to set the mood.. 
I compressed it a but too much but used 4:4:4 to maintain the quality a bit for the size.
I didn't bother with any NR, just a few basic tweaks and 2 grad's in LR5


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## sanj (Apr 8, 2015)

Aglet said:


> Thanks for letting us play w your raw file.
> I don't know how the scene really appeared to you so I had some fun with it.
> Some soft, romantic lighting, a little more of a skyscape to set the mood..
> I compressed it a but too much but used 4:4:4 to maintain the quality a bit for the size.
> I didn't bother with any NR, just a few basic tweaks and 2 grad's in LR5



Thanks Aglet for your time and expertise. 
a) Does the image look to orange or in other words is blue missing.
b) Is the foreground bit too much?

Thanks for setting the mood. Lol.


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## mackguyver (Apr 8, 2015)

Sanjay, I'm sorry, I wasn't able to get to it last night. It's tax time in the US and I'm trying to finish up my filing. I'll try to play with it tonight...


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## distant.star (Apr 8, 2015)

.
Since I like playing with these things, I gave it the old once-over. Composition is the most difficult part of this problem. We want the lions to be the focus, yet the eye goes directly to the sunset because of the brightness and contrasts. I think processing has to go toward minimizing the sunset and maximizing the lions. Essentially what I've tried is a subtle diagonal line of light connecting the sunset and the lions. Trying to keep a natural look, I don't know how else to address it.

First is LR5 only.

Second is LR5 + ColerEfexPro4

Third is same as second, but with cropping.





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.


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## mackguyver (Apr 9, 2015)

Sanjay, here's how I'd do it - pano crop to balance the composition (weight of sun vs. lions). WB was rather tricky, I ended up at 9335K / +22 (magenta). From there, focused on lions (main subject) to get them and the grass as natural looking as possible. Lot's of tweaking to get this one right, or as close to how I imagine it looked. Might have gone a little overboard on the contrast, perhaps, but I think it's the right mood.


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## rpt (Apr 9, 2015)

Sanjay, may be this is not the answer you are looking for but I'll just say it the way I feel. I have been struggling with this image (in my mind that is) from the time you posted it and am not able to come up with a satisfactory solution. The way I see it, this one frame has two pictures in it. Make a vertical cut in the middle of the frame around the clump of trees in the centre of the picture and you get two pictures. One with the beautiful Sky and the other with the lions. Unfortunately, there is no cloud pattern or any other entity leading the eye from the sky to the lions so my eye jumps from the top right to the bottom left and back. The sky is beautiful and so the eye gets dragged there even if you want to look at the lions. For me it is a loosing battle so I'd just cut it into two pictures.


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## mackguyver (Apr 9, 2015)

rpt said:


> Sanjay, may be this is not the answer you are looking for but I'll just say it the way I feel. I have been struggling with this image (in my mind that is) from the time you posted it and am not able to come up with a satisfactory solution. The way I see it, this one frame has two pictures in it. Make a vertical cut in the middle of the frame around the clump of trees in the centre of the picture and you get two pictures. One with the beautiful Sky and the other with the lions. Unfortunately, there is no cloud pattern or any other entity leading the eye from the sky to the lions so my eye jumps from the top right to the bottom left and back. The sky is beautiful and so the eye gets dragged there even if you want to look at the lions. For me it is a loosing battle so I'd just cut it into two pictures.


rpt, I agree and tried multiple crops as I worked on this image. The real issue for me is that the lions are looking out of the frame and are too close to the edge of the frame. If you crop vertically, however, a bright portion of the sky remains, otherwise the crop is too tight. Also, the other side is a decent, but not too exciting landscape. A tight crop of the three lions works okay, but the light is a bit flat and without the sky, it loses something. The real solution would have been to pull the jeep forward so the lions were in front of the setting sun, or to the right of it, so they would be looking into the frame. Of course there may not have been time, or there may have been obstacles in the way, so I won't criticize.

In the end, I think the image works, but isn't the strongest way of seeing this scene, to paraphrase Edward Weston.


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## Aglet (Apr 9, 2015)

sanj said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for letting us play w your raw file.
> ...



HI Sanj 
You're welcome, but I won't call me an expert, just implementing my version of how it could look. 

Yes, i took a lot of the blue out of the image for a number of reasons.
I started by warming the whole image, then adding a lot of magenta to the terrain to get the grass to look yellow-green like it should. This also complements the color of the copulating cats.
But that left the look of the light from the sky being too cold to match the color of the foreground so I ran a warming filter on the sky as well.

My inspiration is where I live and shoot; we often get some very rich sunset colors bursting thru clouds like that. That light can reflect off clouds above and-or behind, filling the scene with a very warm glow that doesn't have the coolness of shade or shadow that it otherwise might.
It's just my personal taste but I think the warmer rendering of the scene helps tell the story of the lions a bit more, it's a setting we may not necessarily associate with cold looking light.

I didn't want to crop the image as I've left that to your discretion. Personally, I would remove the bottom 20% or so to eliminate all that flatness at the bottom. That would help bring your focus to the cats and the wider aspect ratio would give the viewer a few things to look at in the whole setting. This isn't a sterile or controlled studio shot and I think it shouldn't try to look like one. This is a type of documentary image, but you can tweak it to make it tell the story the way you saw it.

FWIW, here's my fully cropped version. I liked the wider crop with just the bottom removed, but there's a dead-patch in the right foreground that kept pulling my gaze to it.
So I carved some off the right side but left the crepuscular ray intact so it finishes in the upper right corner.
IMO, this gives the viewer a few things to look around at in the whole setting, but now the cats are prominent.

EDIT - hmmm this was just a quick hack crop using Preview and both images look the same using Preview on my system but now my FF browser is showing a different sort of gamma between my original and the crop, the latter looking darker. ah well, you get to see the crop.


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## sanj (Apr 9, 2015)

sanj said:


> Thank you so much Mackguyver.
> I put both photos side by side and notice:
> 1. I did over do the chroma.
> 2. There is more contrast in my version which gives it a pop your version looks more natural.
> ...



SORRYYY I meant to write Private. Thank you much...


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## sanj (Apr 9, 2015)

Thank you Aglet for going through your reasoning. Its amazing we all all are a sum total of so many factors!


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## sanj (Apr 9, 2015)

Distant Star. Yes, this helps a lot. Here are a few thoughts:
1. There are comments on the original photo - valid comments - that the lions are too bright because the sun is behind them. You have made them even brighter. So I take it you do not believe the lions should be 'backlit'.
2. The lions in your photo are too white. They are looking albino. They need to be darker.

Your thoughts? Thanks for your time.


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## sanj (Apr 9, 2015)

Mackguyver! I hope you managed to save a lot on your tax refund. 
I do like what you did. I like contrast personally (many times over do it) so it works for me.
THANKS. 
I do find the overall red cast a bit monotonous, but only when I compared it to how I had processed it.


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## sanj (Apr 9, 2015)

Rustom.
Hi Buddy.
I think the beauty of this picture is the sky and the lions. Separated, neither work so well. The sky has no story and the lions without the sky not so great. IMHO.

Hmmm. I know where you coming from but before I abandon this I hope to make it work along with the sky..


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## StudentOfLight (Apr 9, 2015)

I guess others may have already suggested something on these lines... but here's my input anyway.

Increasing exposure reduces saturation. Since you've got the sun in frame and I assume you don't want to blow highlights, you could try applying a curve to selectively brighten the shadows and midtones while leaving the highlights as shot.

The lower portion of the image is darker than the sky so the lower half of the image will be more affected by a curves adjustment. By raising the shadows one of the side-effects is increased noise. With a linear gradient mask you can apply some noise reduction to the image and correct WB/tint if you think there is a significant color shift in the shadows.


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## NorbR (Apr 9, 2015)

I always enjoy a RAW editing exercise, and this one is particularly interesting. Thanks sanj for sharing this image !

For me the problem, or rather the bit of disconfort I have, looking at the original image, is with the way colors clash between the blueish sky behind the tree, the orange part around the sun, and the green in front. So I went ahead and took one of those areas out, replacing the blueish part of the sky :-[

I'm curious to see what people think of this. Does this cross some sort of line? It clearly changes the atmosphere of the shot, and probably does not match anymore the scene as you witnessed it. But it makes in my view for a more balanced picture, and I like the way the lions integrate into this picture. 

(Although the color replacement was done quick and dirty in PS, so forgive the imperfections that may remain ...)

Other adjustments remain along the lines of what was already suggested: warmed up, bit of contrast and clarity added, enhanced the sky, burned the foreground a touch.


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## mackguyver (Apr 9, 2015)

sanj said:


> Mackguyver! I hope you managed to save a lot on your tax refund.
> I do like what you did. I like contrast personally (many times over do it) so it works for me.
> THANKS.
> I do find the overall red cast a bit monotonous, but only when I compared it to how I had processed it.


Sanjay, I wish I was getting money back! Right now, I'm trying to find all of the credits and deductions I can to pay less.

I understand about the color balance and found the white balance particularly tough to pin down on this photo. Without any neutral gray or white objects in the frame, it's tough to get it just right. I have a Whibal card that I plan to use more now as I have the same struggles with nature photos. 

On my calibrated monitor, this is as neutral as I could get without losing some of the warmth of the photo. I found your version too cool / blue and thought the grass looked a little unnatural. I may have gone too far in the other direction! You were there, however, so your memory of the scene is what is most important, so it should reflect what you saw.


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## StudentOfLight (Apr 9, 2015)

Here is my effort edited quickly in GIMP. If I was working from RAW I would work in LR and done things a bit differently.


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## distant.star (Apr 9, 2015)

sanj said:


> Distant Star. Yes, this helps a lot. Here are a few thoughts:
> 1. There are comments on the original photo - valid comments - that the lions are too bright because the sun is behind them. You have made them even brighter. So I take it you do not believe the lions should be 'backlit'.
> 2. The lions in your photo are too white. They are looking albino. They need to be darker.
> 
> Your thoughts? Thanks for your time.



1. A naturalistic expression would back-light the lions, yes, but I don't think that makes a very effective image. As is often the case with wildlife they have a natural camo that tends to blend them into their background. If that blending isn't offset, you may as well just throw a blanket over them.

2. I failed to bring natural color back into the lions after brightening. Looking at Macguyver's rendition, he gets that color (and probably brightness) just about right.

Overall, I think the folks saying this is jamming together two different pictures may have the best point. There may be a way to blend it, but it's beyond any creativity I possess. But it's always fun playing around with such things -- thanks.


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## mackguyver (Apr 9, 2015)

distant.star said:


> But it's always fun playing around with such things -- thanks.


I couldn't agree more and might have to dig up a troublesome CR2 file for people to play with - I have a few that I've never been fully happy with, post-conversion


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## Dylan777 (Apr 10, 2015)

My attempt


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## distant.star (Apr 10, 2015)

.
Joyce Carol Oates, in "The Faith of a Writer" said...

"The artist, perhaps more than most people, inhabits failure, degrees of failure and accommodation and compromise; but the terms of his failure are generally secret..."

"More than most people," indeed -- I think most people are afraid to fail, so they don't try very much.

I have an old friend, an Irish priest. He and I have been in the pastoral work arena together. When I see him, he always reminds me, "We're failing, but nicely."


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## sanj (Apr 11, 2015)

Thank you Dylan.
Very natural looking. It is not looking forced at all. Everything seems to be 'natural'. 
Beyond this perhaps it comes to insecurities on my part. I keep thinking the lions and sky should 'pop' more.


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## sanj (Apr 11, 2015)

Student of light. First of all I love your name. 
So on the left is my version and on right yours? Am I understanding this correctly?


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## sanj (Apr 11, 2015)

Norb.
Thank you for taking the effort and time.
My comment to your photo is exactly to that of Dylan above. 
Appreciate.


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## StudentOfLight (Apr 12, 2015)

sanj said:


> Student of light. First of all I love your name.
> So on the left is my version and on right yours? Am I understanding this correctly?


That's correct. Original on the left, my attempt on the right. 

To me the foreground looked dark and sky well exposed due to shooting with the ETTR approach. I'm not sure how your screen is calibrated but my Laptop wasn't plugged into my i1Display pro, so my laptop might not have had the correct brightness setting. I just tried to equalize the contrast between sky and foreground, using the histogram as a guide. As you were there in the bush, you are the best judge of what looks accurate and true to life.

Out of interest, where was the shot taken?


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## sanj (Apr 12, 2015)

Serengeti. Tanzania. Not too far from Klein's Camp. 

AAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaa. It is heaven.


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