# Is an 8K EOS-1D C Replacement Coming? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Dec 20, 2016)

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<p>With the <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/deal-canon-eos-1d-c-3999-reg-7999/">recent discount</a> on the C-Log, 4K equipped Canon EOS-1D C DSLR, there has been a lot of chatter about a possible replacement.</p>
<p>The latest is that we’ll see an EOS-1D C Mark II in 2017 and it’ll be capable of shooting 8K.</p>
<p>This is the first we’ve heard of such a camera in development, which shouldn’t come as a surprise. The original EOS-1D C, while a great camera with great video quality, didn’t sell all that well at its launch price of $14,999.</p>
<p>There are very few 8K cameras on the market that you can buy, ARRI doesn’t even have one yet. We’re not sure Canon is going to be introducing 8K into a DSLR, especially after showing their 8K prototype at the Canon EXPO which will likely end up a Cinema EOS style camera. In an interview with Tim Smith around NAB, it didn’t seem like we’d be seeing an 8K consumer product from Canon any time soon.</p>
<p><!--more--></p>
<p>If an 8K replacement to the EOS-1D C does happen, it couldn’t just be an EOS-1D X Mark II with the capability added, as the sensor doesn’t have enough resolution. We suspect that we’ll see 8K addressed in some way at NAB in April of 2017.</p>
<p>Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 is the first feature film shot in 8K using the RED Weapon. <a href="https://twitter.com/JamesGunn/status/684830923913859080">¹</a></p>
<p>For the moment, we put this at highly unlikely for 2017, but If we hear anything from trusted sources on the possible development of an EOS-1D C Mark II, we’ll let you know.</p>
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## rrcphoto (Dec 20, 2016)

it wouldn't surprise me if canon does that.

8K 1DC II and a 120MP DSLR next year. hard drives beware!


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## LordofTackle (Dec 20, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> it wouldn't surprise me if canon does that.
> 
> 8K 1DC II and a 120MP DSLR next year. hard drives beware!



Ouch, 4k with MJPEG is already brutal


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## bsbeamer (Dec 20, 2016)

If Canon wants to continue to charge 50%+ more than their competition for similar products, being one of the first to market is the best way to have a successful launch. I hope this happens. They need to justify their prices somehow for larger market appeal.


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## tron (Dec 20, 2016)

There is a CR2.5 that it will come. You will just have to increase by one the third digit of the year ;D


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## douglaurent (Dec 20, 2016)

How do 7640 pixels wide come into a 1D camera?

Only 8K capable Canon camera would be a 5Ds follow up.
As even the Full HD video of the 5Ds was so horrible, that Canon didn't even mention it was their first full frame camera with video autofocus, I doubt that will happen either.

I have shot 60fps (real more like 50) raw 20MP / 6K photo series with the new Olympus E-M1II, which most likely will be implemented as short 6K video sequences in the GH5 in 3 months. This is really amazing, so Canon should start to think about more resolution than 4K. AND raw video.

4K/8MP video leaves no room for cropping, and 8K/32MP video is not really necessary and a bit too much. So the most logical thing would be to go 6K/20MP. Which means a 1DC2 with current sensor and 6K/20MP would be more realistic.

Aside from that, I'll be the first to pre-order a Canon 8K cam, as long as they are ahead with the technology, and not behind a few years as in many other cases right now like stabilization.


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## Besisika (Dec 20, 2016)

LordofTackle said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > it wouldn't surprise me if canon does that.
> ...


It wouldn't be that brutal if they allow it through HDMI. But yes, without it, it is a nightmare.


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## unfocused (Dec 20, 2016)

The recent discount was from one dealer only, so it's impossible to know what was driving the decision by B&H to cut the cost that much. They may have overbought at some point and are trying to cut their losses in anticipation of an eventual replacement, but we can't know for sure.

Even if a replacement is on the way, there are a lot of changes that could be made other than 8K. Switching to the new sensor fabrication process might be sufficient justification to produce a new model that remains 4K, but with better image quality.


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## RGF (Dec 20, 2016)

what would the resolution be? 7680 x 4320 or 33 MP frames. Imagine being able to shoot 33 MP DSLR at 30-60 FPS!!!

Do video camera shoot in a raw or jpg like compressed format?

Not sure I could afford that camera, but it would definite push the envelop.


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## RunAndGun (Dec 20, 2016)

I've been saying this for a long time... There's not gonna be a new 1Dc. The original, while it did have its fans, was always a stop-gap product. 

If we see a direct 1Dc replacement come to market, I will be totally surprised.


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## Etienne (Dec 20, 2016)

I think they'll do it in order to make a statement and prove that they are a brand to watch. It'll make news, and see some use on big productions as a small camera that can fit in tight spaces and still produce an 8K image.


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## Crosswind (Dec 20, 2016)

There aren't even 8k displays on the market...


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## bsbeamer (Dec 20, 2016)

Crosswind said:


> There aren't even 8k displays on the market...



Not in the traditional all-in-one monitor sense, but there 8K displays available. There were 8K broadcast tests from the 2016 Rio Olympics from NHK in Japan. NHK is planning on broadcasting the entire 2020 Olympics in 8K. TV manufacturers Sony & Panasonic are (apparently) prepping new products for release prior to then. Japan has already standardized their 8K UHDTV as Super Hi-Vision. Realistic digital IMAX acquisition is not too far off at this point, especially with the RED EPIC-W 8K and WEAPON 8K available.


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## bsbeamer (Dec 20, 2016)

Etienne said:


> I think they'll do it in order to make a statement and prove that they are a brand to watch. It'll make news, and see some use on big productions as a small camera that can fit in tight spaces and still produce an 8K image.



If they want their higher end cameras like the C700 (and future improvement models) to be taken seriously and be well received by the "Hollywood" industry, then it's what they need to do. Taking a bigger bite out of the ARRI market is the best way to steal market share if they ever want to be a go-to digital cinema company.


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## roxics (Dec 20, 2016)

RGF said:


> what would the resolution be? 7680 x 4320 or 33 MP frames. Imagine being able to shoot 33 MP DSLR at 30-60 FPS!!!
> 
> Do video camera shoot in a raw or jpg like compressed format?
> 
> Not sure I could afford that camera, but it would definite push the envelop.



Canon 4K on DSLRs shoots to a motion jpeg codec. But other digital cinema cameras do shoot raw or compressed raw or ProRes/DNxHR. All of which is better in quality than H.264.


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## roxics (Dec 20, 2016)

Crosswind said:


> There aren't even 8k displays on the market...



That's fine. Some of us video people didn't even want 4K TVs on the market because it's overkill for many people and we wanted room to work with our 4K footage.

The same would be true of 8K, give us affordable 8K/6K cameras, but keep the TV market at 4K at most so we have some space to breath. 

The ARRI Alexa for example, the dominate digital cinema camera for big productions is not even a 4K camera.


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## drs (Dec 20, 2016)

Interesting idea, highly unlikely though, IMHO.

If it happens, I want one, if:
Rolling shutter is not visible.
The stored information is at least 10bit/channel.
This would give a real 4K image for sure ;o)

It would be the sensor of the 5d S/R I guess.


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## sanj (Dec 20, 2016)

10 bit is mandatory. If yes, it will be a hit.


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## rs (Dec 20, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> I have shot 60fps (real more like 50) raw 20MP / *6K photo* series with the new Olympus E-M1II



I think you'll find that's 5K


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## davidj (Dec 21, 2016)

Canon's cinema lenses are for a Super 35 sized sensor, so, if my maths is correct, this 1D C II would need a 72MP full frame sensor to do Super 35 8K.


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## M_S (Dec 21, 2016)

Seeing the prototype on photokina i doubt we will see a DSLR with that capability for another two years the least. 4k screens just start to sell in quantities and bandwith is nowhere near the bitrate to support that. Machines to handle that data in a convenient way is only for big studios. So what would the target audience look like i wonder...


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## jeffa4444 (Dec 21, 2016)

8K cameras for Cinema are being used to oversample images for 4K there is not a hope in hell of seeing 8K projection at a standardised multiplex screen that has a screen diagonal of 56ft (average). To see 8K you would need to stand in the no mans land area between the front row & the screen. 4K in these cinemas to get the true effect you must sit in the front four rows. 
The obsession of resolution is not the true aim of 4K or 8K currently but utilising the wider colour space (Rec. 2020) and anyone doubting that should know were being asked to put the oldest lenses on cameras to "lower" resolution & sharpness & affect the colour imagery due to older coatings. 

The advantage of 8K Vistavision is the narrower depth of field to aid storytelling and heighten effect not to make images clinical and television like. 

An 8K 1D C MKII what is the point of it? Is it really needed and if so why?


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## transpo1 (Dec 21, 2016)

A 6K or 8K Cinema EOS cam would certainly put some attention back on that line, which is lackluster at the moment. But I'd rather see a 5DC hybrid shooter with 1.3x crop 4K, Canon Log and DPA and manageable video codec (non MJPEG) before this happens. The tech on the current 1DC is growing old, and Canon needs to enable full-frame, 4K video shooting. 6K and 8K is a good idea for the next C300 and C500 series to recapture momentum there, which the FS7 and other cams have stolen.


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## tron (Dec 21, 2016)

I would classify this rumor as CR0.5 (= not a lie but let's say wishful thinking)


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## Bernard (Dec 21, 2016)

Just to be clear, 8K is not a distribution format at this time. It's an acquisition format that is useful mainly in effects-heavy sequences.
Nothing new about that concept. 8-perf (Vistavision) and 70mm were mostly used for effects shots during the film era. The extra resolution gives you more margin for manipulation in post.


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## rrcphoto (Dec 21, 2016)

Bernard said:


> Just to be clear, 8K is not a distribution format at this time. It's an acquisition format that is useful mainly in effects-heavy sequences.
> Nothing new about that concept. 8-perf (Vistavision) and 70mm were mostly used for effects shots during the film era. The extra resolution gives you more margin for manipulation in post.



not really.

Japan has already trialed 8K broadcasting and the goal of the 2020 Olympics is to be shot in 8K and broadcasted as well.

so there's alot of politics involved and I would imagine that Canon will do everything possible to have 8K products well before the olympics.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Dec 21, 2016)

Canon has been working hard on 8K, NHK has been pushing manufacturers to put out product. It would not surprise me greatly to see 8K being down sampled. I doubt it would be recorded as 8K, maybe externally?


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## rs (Dec 21, 2016)

It's no secret that Canon have been working on 8K

http://www.canon-europe.com/photokina/8k-camera/


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## douglaurent (Dec 22, 2016)

rs said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > I have shot 60fps (real more like 50) raw 20MP / *6K photo* series with the new Olympus E-M1II
> ...



More like 5.5K


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## douglaurent (Dec 22, 2016)

Funny how photographers think 8K video is too much for 4K monitors in 2017, while 8K photos were totally normal on 2K monitors since the D800 came out in 2012


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## rs (Dec 22, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> rs said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



At full res, it's images are 5184 x 3888 pixels. 

2K is 2048 pixels wide. 4K is 4096 pixels wide. Therefore 5K is 5120 pixels wide. So if you want to split hairs, it's 5.0625K. I call that 5K.


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## jeffa4444 (Dec 22, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Funny how photographers think 8K video is too much for 4K monitors in 2017, while 8K photos were totally normal on 2K monitors since the D800 came out in 2012



Not sure I follow your logic. You can show 8K origination on any monitor you just will not see 8K. Apple claim 5K on the 27" iMac and on the LG Ultrafine 27" 5K monitor (both screens are made by LG) but I don't know of any commercially available monitors higher than that. So technically we cannot see the 8K resolution just as you would not see 4K on a 2K monitor. 

NHK are pushing 8K but many are questioning the point of 8K display in cinema or TV because of the viewing distances involved.


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## Respinder (Dec 23, 2016)

RunAndGun said:


> I've been saying this for a long time... There's not gonna be a new 1Dc. The original, while it did have its fans, was always a stop-gap product.
> 
> If we see a direct 1Dc replacement come to market, I will be totally surprised.



I disagree - I know some have said that the 1DX Mark II was meant to replace both the 1DX and 1DC, but if that was really the case than why would Canon keep selling the 1DC?

The fact is that Canon needs to have at least one DSLR in their Cinema EOS line. Video shooters still want a hybrid system that can both take great photos and great video. The 1DX Mark II right now is the best hybrid camera Canon has produced to date, BUT it does not have C-log. It just makes sense for Canon to release a new 1DC Mark II.

We also have to look at the bigger picture here - the photography industry is gradually shifting away from your traditional camera makers (Canon, Nikon, etc) to cell-phone makers (Apple, Samsung, Google, etc). People don't "develop" photos anymore (at least typically) - they are now going onto platforms such as Instagram and Snapchat - both of which either make it hard to post DSLR-shot photos (Instagram) or do not allow any non-cell-phone photos at all (Snapchat)

The only way for Canon to remain relevant is to keep revolutionizing the market - making the first 8K DSLR would certainly be one option, although it wouldn't be cheap. If Canon does release the 1DC Mark II in 8K, they will keep the price up at $15K for sure. I'd personally rather see a more refined 4K or perhaps 5/6K DSLR at a price slightly higher than a 1DX Mark II - maybe $7-8K, but thats wishful thinking. 

The point is that Canon absolutely needs to keep pushing the market, and they need to keep at least one DSLR within their Cinema EOS line. Just my two cents.


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## mps (Jan 2, 2017)

i highly doubt canon will release an 8k camera in 2017, especially not in a dslr body... this is their 2016 solution: 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BKxiPmYA_qG/?taken-by=screentrips


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## tron (Jan 2, 2017)

mps said:


> i highly doubt canon will release an 8k camera in 2017, especially not in a dslr body... this is their 2016 solution:
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BKxiPmYA_qG/?taken-by=screentrips


+1 Good to put some reality to this thread. An updated 4K 1Dc is more like it. Like increased frame rates, other codecs, more bits, etc. Just my opinion...


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 2, 2017)

douglaurent said:


> 4K/8MP video leaves no room for cropping, and 8K/32MP video is not really necessary and a bit too much. So the most logical thing would be to go 6K/20MP.



I don't agree that the most logical thing would be to build a likely significantly-expensive offering to the professional video market which falls short of 8K UHD in favor of a non-standard resolution (6K). Sure, Red released a 6k model, but that was several years ago.

IMO a better option would be to build an 8K system which allows lower resolution options.



rs said:


> So if you want to split hairs, it's 5.0625K. I call that 5K.



haha, 51/16K. Catchy!


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## benkam (Jan 3, 2017)

Don't think it'll be 8K but a C'd up 1DX2, so 4K 60p but added with log gamma, dual CFast, a fully functional touchscreen. If there's a biggie change, perhaps a hybrid EVF/OVF. Then maybe it's the price that'll be $8K.


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## jeffa4444 (Jan 3, 2017)

Still not hearing from anyone why 8K is important for TV / video monitoring / cinema display. viewing distance people is the key here. Oversampling I get it, wider colour gamut I get it, any form of 8K display other than maybe stills not getting it.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 3, 2017)

jeffa4444 said:


> Still not hearing from anyone why 8K is important for TV / video monitoring / cinema display. viewing distance people is the key here. Oversampling I get it, wider colour gamut I get it, any form of 8K display other than maybe stills not getting it.



Because Japan deems it so. For the Olympics.

So it will be done, regardless if people think it's important.

but with this analogy .. why are high resolution still cameras important? why not just use a 8MP camera and be done with it?

Same reason really. less digital artifacts, better resolution for larger, closer more immersive display of imagery.


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## jeffa4444 (Jan 3, 2017)

If immersive means you can no longer see the full image without physically panning & scanning with your head & eyes then we have defeated the realism and viewing for long periods would be uncomfortable for moving images. The extra resolution is a mute point with moving images & less so with still images where we have time to be more critical. 
We have reached a critical junction with resolution and for many we have already gone too far. Colour space is different many still prefer analogue because it imparts a more subtle look and a wider bit depth & colour space may provide for that subtle in digital that some feel it doesn't have. 

Like everything however its subjective and we all hold our own views.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 4, 2017)

jeffa4444 said:


> If immersive means you can no longer see the full image without physically panning & scanning with your head & eyes then we have defeated the realism and viewing for long periods would be uncomfortable for moving images. The extra resolution is a mute point with moving images & less so with still images where we have time to be more critical.
> We have reached a critical junction with resolution and for many we have already gone too far. Colour space is different many still prefer analogue because it imparts a more subtle look and a wider bit depth & colour space may provide for that subtle in digital that some feel it doesn't have.
> 
> Like everything however its subjective and we all hold our own views.



true that.

I honestly don't know how they are envisioning 8k .. whether it's more a surround virtual reality mode where the 8K resolution is covering a wider view?

I do know the audio is over 20 channels apparently. 22.2 is NHK's spec.

so if they are making audio very immersive , I can see them pushing for a far more video immersive effect. imagine it feeling like you are right there in the stands kind of thing.

when you think about it.. we are always presented with a wider field of view than we can comfortably see. every second of the day.


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