# Handheld vs. tripod with the Great Whites



## Eldar (Nov 14, 2013)

I posted this on another thread, but I think it works well enough to repost it.

We all struggle with getting maximum movability with our long tele lenses. I used to handhold a lot, but a 600mm f4L IS II, with a 1.4xIII extender on a 1DX body is quite a load. But as an old boy scout, who used to carry the flag in parades, I thought of using a flag bandoleer, which I did.

I am still working on a solution to strap the lens to the shoulder straps of the bandoleer, so it can hang in a stable position while I operate another body.

It is cheap small and very efficient.


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## verysimplejason (Nov 14, 2013)

Nice! Monopod isn't enough?


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## JPAZ (Nov 14, 2013)

Clever. Maybe modify a shoulder harness in combination with your setup?


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## Eldar (Nov 14, 2013)

Jackson_Bill said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > I am still working on a solution to strap the lens to the shoulder straps of the bandoleer, so it can hang in a stable position while I operate another body.
> ...


What I´m looking for is something that would hold this rig up, while I operated an other camera. But all I have thought of so far involves a minimum of three straps and that becomes a bit messy. An option I have not tried is to use a line, where I can tilt the lens downward and tighten the monopod and lens towards my body. 

But with all the smart people on this forum, I´m sure someone will come up with a brilliant suggestion


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 14, 2013)

Eldar said:


> But with all the smart people on this forum, I´m sure someone will come up with a brilliant suggestion



Grow a 3rd hand? 

Seriously, though - thanks for posting an image of your rig!


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## Eldar (Nov 14, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Grow a 3rd hand?


He, he, IMHO evolution should have fixed that. It would have been very practical in many situations. Not sure were we should have it though ...


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## mackguyver (Nov 14, 2013)

For about $309 more than your solution, you could use this from Cotton Carrier:





http://buy.cottoncarrier.com/cotton-carrier-steady-shot-w-CAMERA-VEST-FOR-ALL-p/779ssv.htm

Or perhaps just invest in a nice set of these


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## Eldar (Nov 14, 2013)

I looked at the Steady Shot and I am sure it works great up to a certain point, maybe a 300mm f2.8L IS II. But with a 600mm f4L IS II with extender and a 1DX, I´m rather skeptical. I would expect it to tilt.

And a good thing with the bandoleer is that it packs very compact and weighs close to nothing.

The weight lifting is probably a good idea anyway


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## AlanF (Nov 14, 2013)

Eldar said:


> I looked at the Steady Shot and I am sure it works great up to a certain point, maybe a 300mm f2.8L IS II. But with a 600mm f4L IS II with extender and a 1DX, I´m rather skeptical. I would expect it to tilt.
> 
> And a good thing with the bandoleer is that it packs very compact and weighs close to nothing.
> 
> The weight lifting is probably a good idea anyway



You don't need any assistance to hold a 300mm f/2.8L unless you are very weak.


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## Eldar (Nov 14, 2013)

AlanF said:


> You don't need any assistance to hold a 300mm f/2.8L unless you are very weak.


I think we all agree on that. I actually handheld both the 400 f2.8L IS II and the 600 f4L IS II most of the time, even with extenders. The need for this bandoleer solution came with the 200-400 f4L 1.4x. It is about as heavy as the 400mm, so from that perspective it is hand holdable. But you need that extra arm to handle the zoom. With the bandoleer, that became very easy.


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## mackguyver (Nov 14, 2013)

AlanF said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > I looked at the Steady Shot and I am sure it works great up to a certain point, maybe a 300mm f2.8L IS II. But with a 600mm f4L IS II with extender and a 1DX, I´m rather skeptical. I would expect it to tilt.
> ...


Good points and the Steady Shot seems way overpriced - I like the bandoleer option a lot. As Alan says, the 300 2.8 is very hand-holdable, at least for several minutes at a time. If you're holding it up to your eye waiting for some action, it starts to get a little heavy. Weight lifting helps a lot, though . I have yet to put my 300 on a tripod and found it annoying on my monopod, but would love to have a way to secure it to my belt or chest so I could grab shots with my 70-200 or 24-70 on another body. 

The 600 is a whole other story, though, and the 800 is ridiculously hard to hand-hold.


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## JPAZ (Nov 14, 2013)

Of course, another (though potentially more costly) solution is a very attractive assistant.  

Seriously, given the length and weight of the kit, I still wonder about the bandoleer with a shoulder harness using the monopod, as you've shown. Or, would that be too heavy making you want to lean forward? Then a second body and lens on a BR?


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## eml58 (Nov 15, 2013)

Hi Eldar, I like it, simple, in expensive.

There are a few products out there such as the Fly Cam, Steady Cam etc, mostly made for Video use, but also mostly entailing a hinge vest and arm arrangement.

As you mentioned, the 200-400f/4 brings a few small issues to the Party now, when hand holding it's a bit of a task operating the Zoom and Converter as well as the Camera, maybe we are looking at it from the wrong perspective.

Perhaps we should be looking at stabilising the Subject ??


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## serendipidy (Nov 15, 2013)

eml58 said:


> Hi Eldar, I like it, simple, in expensive.
> 
> There are a few products out there such as the Fly Cam, Steady Cam etc, mostly made for Video use, but also mostly entailing a hinge vest and arm arrangement.
> 
> ...



LOL....Cheetah IS....now that's something I never thought I would ever see ;D


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## eml58 (Nov 15, 2013)

serendipidy said:


> Cheetah IS....now that's something I never thought I would ever see ;D



That's it !!, Cheetah IS, and for all those Canon Knockers saying Canon are no longer being innovative, Canon have brought "Cheetah IS" to the Market first, Take that Nikon !!! & Sony to.


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## serendipidy (Nov 15, 2013)

eml58 said:


> serendipidy said:
> 
> 
> > Cheetah IS....now that's something I never thought I would ever see ;D
> ...



  ;D


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## Jack Douglas (Nov 15, 2013)

I'm completely in agreement as far as this idea having merit! I will be trying to come up with some ideas this winter and if I do I'll post. I have an upholstery machine so I can experiment quite a bit.

I like to brag how strong I am too but after refusing to put the 300 X2 down for several minutes because something exhilerating is about to happen, my arms have nearly collapsed. 

Never the less, after a good season of shooting I, like AlanF, like my freedom too much to go to a pod unless there is a very compelling reason. And as much as I'd like more reach I simply won't be going heavier than 300. I wonder if we could fill our lenses with helium. 

Actually I'm wondering what a 7D2 might achieve with my preferred light 300 X2 - any comment AlanF?

Jack


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## Eldar (Nov 15, 2013)

JPAZ said:


> Of course, another (though potentially more costly) solution is a very attractive assistant.
> 
> Seriously, given the length and weight of the kit, I still wonder about the bandoleer with a shoulder harness using the monopod, as you've shown. Or, would that be too heavy making you want to lean forward? Then a second body and lens on a BR?


One thing I tried, which worked reasonably well (in a no-stress situation), was to tilt the 200-400 lens downwards and have a strap I could tighten between the base of the tilhead on the monopod and the left shoulderstrap of the bandoleer. With the other lens on a BR, it worked reasonably well. But you have to stand quite still when you do it. Maybe combine it with a flexible strap to the backside of the shoulder strap could work.


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## Eldar (Nov 15, 2013)

eml58 said:


> Perhaps we should be looking at stabilising the Subject ??


He he, why didn't I think of that


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## pwp (Nov 15, 2013)

AlanF said:


> You don't need any assistance to hold a 300mm f/2.8L unless you are very weak.


That's great if you're Mr Muscles. Look around you. The reality is we're not all built that way. 
For the rest of us, monopods offer control & stability particularly over a long shoot.

-pw


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## AlanF (Nov 15, 2013)

Jack Douglas said:


> I'm completely in agreement as far as this idea having merit! I will be trying to come up with some ideas this winter and if I do I'll post. I have an upholstery machine so I can experiment quite a bit.
> 
> I like to brag how strong I am too but after refusing to put the 300 X2 down for several minutes because something exhilerating is about to happen, my arms have nearly collapsed.
> 
> ...



Jack
My own experience, which matches that of others, my 5D3 outperforms my 7D for bird photography for much of, but not all, the time, despite the the crop factor disadvantage. Some of that better performance is due to the far superior AF of the 5D3. If a 7DII with an AF performance equal to that of the 5DIII and a better sensor does appear, I will definitely buy one as it should come into its own when you get close to pixel-limited shots.
Alan


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## M.ST (Nov 15, 2013)

I am only willing to handheld lenses up to the 300 2.8 II or 400 2.8 II. 

The 500 and 600 mm lenses I use with a Monopod or Tripod. The 800 mm and the 1200 mm lens I only use with a heavy tripod.

I like to play with Cheetahs, but they don´t have enough humor to get stabilised. Good Photoshop job Canon.

The Cheetah IS and the Canon price builders are very innovative, but where are innovative new products (cameras and lenses) that can compete with the products from other brands? 

Maybe we see next year the innovative white 1D X or 5D Mark III.


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## Click (Nov 15, 2013)

eml58 said:


> serendipidy said:
> 
> 
> > Cheetah IS....now that's something I never thought I would ever see ;D
> ...



;D ;D ;D


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## mackguyver (Nov 15, 2013)

AlanF said:


> Jack
> My own experience, which matches that of others, my 5D3 outperforms my 7D for bird photography for much of, but not all, the time, despite the the crop factor disadvantage. Some of that better performance is due to the far superior AF of the 5D3. If a 7DII with an AF performance equal to that of the 5DIII and a better sensor does appear, I will definitely buy one as it should come into its own when you get close to pixel-limited shots.
> Alan


I couldn't agree more and after a couple of months of using the 5DIII and 7D side-by-side, I opted to keep my 5DII as a backup body and sell my 7D. No regrets.


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## jhpeterson (Nov 15, 2013)

Using the Great Whites from boats and helicopters, I find the bandolier option a little scary, especially when things get bumpy!
I generally go hand-held, but sometimes use an Ergo-Rest reconfigured so it braces against the chest or shoulder. There's not much room up in the air for anything else.


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## Vossie (Nov 15, 2013)

M.ST said:


> I am only willing to handheld lenses up to the 300 2.8 II or 400 2.8 II.
> 
> The 500 and 600 mm lenses I use with a Monopod or Tripod. The 800 mm and the 1200 mm lens I only use with a heavy tripod.
> 
> ...



Can you post a picture of your 1200mm rig on tripod? I would love to see it.


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## WPJ (Nov 15, 2013)

M.ST said:


> I am only willing to handheld lenses up to the 300 2.8 II or 400 2.8 II.
> 
> The 500 and 600 mm lenses I use with a Monopod or Tripod. The 800 mm and the 1200 mm lens I only use with a heavy tripod.
> 
> ...



you have a 1200mm, can I ask how much you paid, and if you ever think of selling it ping me.


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## Jack Douglas (Nov 15, 2013)

Thanks AlanF. I am now patiently (as opposed to others not enjoying what they've got as much as me) waiting to see what my second camera will be. Once the 7D2 is out (assuming), if that doesn't seem to offer what we hope, then I'll probably go 1Dx to get me the best AF and FPS. I'm convinced that I'm not quite getting with my 300 X2 what others are with their longer primes but the difference is not enough to phase me. In other words if I'm creative and persistent I can still compete to a fair degree. 

I do have great admiration for those who pack the bigger lenses and of course great salivation when I see some of the shots they only can get, but at my age I won't be going there. 

Jack


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## JPAZ (Nov 15, 2013)

Hmm. The "cheetah IS" got me thinking. If this can lift a cat, then it can lift a 600 f/4.


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## AlanF (Nov 16, 2013)

Jack Douglas said:


> Thanks AlanF. I am now patiently (as opposed to others not enjoying what they've got as much as me) waiting to see what my second camera will be. Once the 7D2 is out (assuming), if that doesn't seem to offer what we hope, then I'll probably go 1Dx to get me the best AF and FPS. I'm convinced that I'm not quite getting with my 300 X2 what others are with their longer primes but the difference is not enough to phase me. In other words if I'm creative and persistent I can still compete to a fair degree.
> 
> I do have great admiration for those who pack the bigger lenses and of course great salivation when I see some of the shots they only can get, but at my age I won't be going there.
> 
> Jack


Jack
You don't have to be polite to those rich buggers with rippling biceps who scale Everest with a 600mm and 1Dx under one arm and a 500mm with 5DIII under the other in reserve.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 16, 2013)

verysimplejason said:


> Nice! Monopod isn't enough?



monopods can get in the way

I know for sports, I much prefer to hand hold my 300 2.8, easier to track, especially for football and if going up and down sidelines too.

I wonder how much extra freedom the bandolier gives compared to a monopod.


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## Eldar (Nov 16, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> I wonder how much extra freedom the bandolier gives compared to a monopod.


The bandoleer does not work without a monopod. And its not meant to be used with a 300mm. Have you seen the picture at the beginning of the thread?


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## Northstar (Nov 16, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> verysimplejason said:
> 
> 
> > Nice! Monopod isn't enough?
> ...



Totally agree


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## Vern (Nov 16, 2013)

Great idea Eldar. I often use my 600 w the monopod folded back and braced against my leg, but the bandolier would be much better - I'll have to track one down.


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## Jack Douglas (Nov 16, 2013)

I am not sure because I haven't started to work on this yet but I'd be thinking along the lines of my hands holding the camer/lens with support in some way for my elbow(s) augmented by a modified neck strap. However, in my case I'd be working 300 X2 and only wanting a little extra help. 

My limited time with the gimble had me constantly finding birds located at very awkward angles relative to how I was set up and I'd be pulling the lens off the tripod more than leaving it on, in frustration. However for more distant shots with more reach I can imagine this problem doesn't factor in??

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Nov 17, 2013)

JPAZ said:


> Hmm. The "cheetah IS" got me thinking. If this can lift a cat, then it can lift a 600 f/4.



I'm surprised this got by the animal rights activists!  Wonder if anyone has actually used helium assist - I've heard of a guy launching himself so ..... All you'd need is to pack an 80 cu ft cylinder along with you. 

Jack


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## eml58 (Nov 17, 2013)

Eldar said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder how much extra freedom the bandolier gives compared to a monopod.
> ...



I do a reasonable amount of shooting from a Helicopter, doors off, when I'm on Safari, especially in the Okavango Delta area, the Bandolier is almost the perfect solution, alternative is simply hand holding, the Helicopter harness keeps you attached to the chopper when your standing out on the skid, but this makes it impossible to use the Monopod attached, I've tried a harness from the top door edge but it's restrictive even using a line that has a tension brake included (similar system to car seat belts) the Bandolier is an almost perfect solution in this situation, and light weight easy to pack.

Thanks Eldar.


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## Nishi Drew (Nov 17, 2013)

According to a majority of white lens owners here in Japan, you apparently cannot be recognized past amateur level unless you use a giant tripod, from "big white" to a 70-300 with IS, even if what you're shooting absolutely doesn't need any such support, but you're willing to lug around an F/2.8 zoom all day but shoot at F/16 only... err....
Seriously it's insane, was just at a nice place for autumn leaves viewing and I lost count past 50 of people with the 70-200 series of lenses, mostly 70-200LII too, and few of them are any sort of pro, just part of a photo group/club. It was interesting to see that a majority of users are Canon here, and more Olympus/Panasonic mFT users than even Nikon.


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## Jack Douglas (Nov 17, 2013)

Nishi Drew,

That's an eye opener! It's whatever makes you happy, and they look happy!! 

New thread maybe? - psychology of photography. PhD thesis anyone?

I've often wondered if people (or creatures) watching me aren't getting a big laugh, but hey that'd be great in that I'd be contributing to the good of humanity (wildlife). 

Jack


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 17, 2013)

Eldar said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder how much extra freedom the bandolier gives compared to a monopod.
> ...



Yeah but the monopod is not being used like a monopod here that is what I meant. Here it is just attached to you and you are not stuck messing with it on the ground.

And I was just using the 300 as an example of how hand-holding can be nice (plus, who is to say you couldn't use this with it if you were tired?).


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## Eldar (Nov 17, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...


I have now walked around with this quite a bit, with both the 600mm f4L IS II and the 200-400 f4L 1.4x, and I feel as stable with the bandoleer as with having the monopod on the ground. When I´m in a forrest and often need to make minor sideways movements, I never have to adjust the length of the monopod, which makes me a lot more efficient. I also make less noise. When I walk with it, I just tilt the lens down and hold it close to my body, with both camera and lens well protected. I have not felt any strain on my back or any other muscle from carrying this over time.

Personally I would not feel the need to have rig like this for a 300mm, but I´m sure some would. If you have to follow a subject through the viewer for some time, a 300 can also be heavy enough.


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## garyknrd (Nov 22, 2013)

Nishi Drew said:


> According to a majority of white lens owners here in Japan, you apparently cannot be recognized past amateur level unless you use a giant tripod, from "big white" to a 70-300 with IS, even if what you're shooting absolutely doesn't need any such support, but you're willing to lug around an F/2.8 zoom all day but shoot at F/16 only... err....
> Seriously it's insane, was just at a nice place for autumn leaves viewing and I lost count past 50 of people with the 70-200 series of lenses, mostly 70-200LII too, and few of them are any sort of pro, just part of a photo group/club. It was interesting to see that a majority of users are Canon here, and more Olympus/Panasonic mFT users than even Nikon.



I run into Japanese tourists and retires here in Thailand all the time. They all tell me about Canon and how famous the 300 mm f2.8 lens and others are. And allot use tripods also.. strange.

Got to talking to one guy that was a real camera buff. He was shooting on a nice tripod using a Panasonic and an older 500mm f/4.5. Manual focus with focus peeking. And was getting some beautiful photos. I was amazed. Allot the Japanese guys here really get into it. Having special machined parts made for there lens and cameras. 
I felt kinda out of place. 

They also tell me Canon provides free services to it's customers there. Free yearly cleaning and adjustments. Is one thing he mentioned.


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