# USD pricing for the Canon EOS R6 Mark II and Canon RF 135mm f/1.8L IS USM has leaked ahead of the imminent announcement



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 29, 2022)

> In a pretty rare occurence, USD pricing for the Canon EOS R6 Mark II and Canon RF 135mm f/1.8L IS USM have leaked ahead of the official announcement.
> The Canon EOS R6 Mark II will launch at the same price as the Canon EOS R6 at $2499 USD. There is also a version of the Canon EOS R6 Mark II for stop motion animation, that will cost an additional $100 with the...



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## mrproxy (Oct 29, 2022)

Canon RF 135mm f/1.8L IS USM $2099
Thats lower than I expected. Original 135 f2 was kinda cheep but outstanding lens. Hope this will follow.


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## Skux (Oct 29, 2022)

$2500 is a pretty good deal but there's no way it'll be a stacked sensor now.


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## Franklyok (Oct 29, 2022)

Skux said:


> $2500 is a pretty good deal but there's no way it'll be a stacked sensor now.


Is it from old 6D2 or Rp?


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 29, 2022)

Skux said:


> $2500 is a pretty good deal but there's no way it'll be a stacked sensor now.


Why? There have been stacked sensors in $500 cameras.


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## vignes (Oct 29, 2022)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Why? There have been stacked sensors in $500 cameras.


Not with FF sensor


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## vignes (Oct 29, 2022)

Franklyok said:


> Is it from old 6D2 or Rp?


this a 24Mpx FF sensor. Canon never had 24Mpx FF sensor prior this except for the R3 stacked sensor.
Must be new, but CR needs to clarify whether it's BSI and the DPAF is version II?


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## Unchecked (Oct 29, 2022)

Skux said:


> $2500 is a pretty good deal but there's no way it'll be a stacked sensor now.


Not sure why y'all are expecting a stacked sensor in the first place. The R6 is Canon's two thousand something dollar full frame camera. It's main competition is the a7iv and the Z6ii (iii). They are not going to look too dissimilar from each other i.e. not stacked sensor.

Full frame stacked sensors is a premium feature. The only way a full frame stacked sensor will make it's way down the product lineup is when there's a new tech at the top becoming the new premium feature, making stacked sensors "old tech" and then moving downwards to the lower tier bodies.


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## Scenes (Oct 29, 2022)

All pretty interesting. Anyone know what ‘Hybrid Auto’ is? As someone who just moved from an R6 to an R5C a few weeks ago I’m interested in the specs but don’t have too much buyers remorse…


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## NorskHest (Oct 29, 2022)

Unchecked said:


> Not sure why y'all are expecting a stacked sensor in the first place. The R6 is Canon's two thousand something dollar full frame camera. It's main competition is the a7iv and the Z6ii (iii). They are not going to look too dissimilar from each other i.e. not stacked sensor.
> 
> Full frame stacked sensors is a premium feature. The only way a full frame stacked sensor will make it's way down the product lineup is when there's a new tech at the top becoming the new premium feature, making stacked sensors "old tech" and then moving downwards to the lower tier bodies.


Z6ii has a bsi stacked sensor and is 1800$ or around there


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## esglord (Oct 29, 2022)

Sold! Well probably. Want to see the mk I discount. Anyone have an idea how long they might keep selling the mk i alongside based in historical norm?


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## AlanF (Oct 29, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> Z6ii has a bsi stacked sensor and is 1800$ or around there


Are you sure it is stacked? I thought it was a Sony BSI but not stacked sensor.


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## vangelismm (Oct 29, 2022)

Franklyok said:


> Is it from old 6D2 or Rp?


Impossible, it is a super downgrade. 
6d sensor are from the time when canon did not had on chip adc.


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## Bob Howland (Oct 29, 2022)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Why? There have been stacked sensors in $500 cameras.


And then there is the OM-1 with a (smaller) stacked BSI sensor at $2200. I still think it'll use the R3 sensor. We'll know soon enough.


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## dlee13 (Oct 29, 2022)

135L price is quite fair, very close to the 135GM which is nice to see.


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## AlanF (Oct 29, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> And then there is the OM-1 with a (smaller) stacked BSI sensor at $2200. I still think it'll use the R3 sensor. We'll know soon enough.


“I never think of the future, it comes soon enough.” Albert Einstein


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## HMC11 (Oct 29, 2022)

The pricing is good news for those waiting to get an R6. The option now is between getting a good discount (dare I hope for $500 or more?) or paying the original R6 price for a presumably 'better' R6 II.


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## Stig Nygaard (Oct 29, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> I still think it'll use the R3 sensor.



Nothing in the rumored specs ever looked like it was stacked sensor.
No 4K120, and 4k60 is with a crop?


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## Doug7131 (Oct 29, 2022)

Unchecked said:


> Not sure why y'all are expecting a stacked sensor in the first place. The R6 is Canon's two thousand something dollar full frame camera. It's main competition is the a7iv and the Z6ii (iii). They are not going to look too dissimilar from each other i.e. not stacked sensor.
> 
> Full frame stacked sensors is a premium feature. The only way a full frame stacked sensor will make it's way down the product lineup is when there's a new tech at the top becoming the new premium feature, making stacked sensors "old tech" and then moving downwards to the lower tier bodies.


Well if the R6mk2 has a 24mp sensor then Canon have 2 options:
Create a entirely new sensor with all the associated cost such as design, testing, fabrication, firmware development and setting up a new production line. A process that would cost millions and take many months if not years.
Or:
Just use the existing 24mp R3 sensor which has almost no upfront costs other than to expand the capacity of an existing production line. This also cuts development time massively. Then just limit features in firmware. 

In pretty sure Canon would just go for option B


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## twoheadedboy (Oct 29, 2022)

Do we know or are we able to infer filter thread size on the 135mm from any patents or anything? Really hoping for 77mm or 82mm.


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## Bob Howland (Oct 29, 2022)

Doug7131 said:


> Well if the R6mk2 has a 24mp sensor then Canon have 2 options:
> Create a entirely new sensor with all the associated cost such as design, testing, fabrication, firmware development and setting up a new production line. A process that would cost millions and take many months if not years.
> Or:
> Just use the existing 24mp R3 sensor which has almost no upfront costs other than to expand the capacity of an existing production line. This also cuts development time massively. Then just limit features in firmware.
> ...


Although maybe with a slower clock. There's a whole universe of possibilities and we're all just guessing.


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## sanj (Oct 29, 2022)

The Speedlight interests me. I wait to know more.


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## Chaitanya (Oct 29, 2022)

Skux said:


> $2500 is a pretty good deal but there's no way it'll be a stacked sensor now.


At best we can expect BSI sensor and even that would be a good upgrade.


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## Chaitanya (Oct 29, 2022)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Why? There have been stacked sensors in $500 cameras.


Currently cheapest FF camera with stacked sensor is Sony A9 II at $4500, if Canon wants to pull price down it would be with R5 replacement at $3800.


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## sanj (Oct 29, 2022)




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## blackcoffee17 (Oct 29, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> Z6ii has a bsi stacked sensor and is 1800$ or around there



The Z6 II has no stacked sensor, just BSI. The cheapest FF stacked sensor is probably in the A9.


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## Chaitanya (Oct 29, 2022)

Interested to find out more about EL-5 if it has new hotshoe(restricting backward compatibility), use of larger Li-Ion battery from EL-1, and form factor if Li-ion batteries arent used.


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## Stig Nygaard (Oct 29, 2022)

Doug7131 said:


> In pretty sure Canon would just go for option B


Unless they plan to launch more than one camera using a cheaper 24mp sensor?


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## Unchecked (Oct 29, 2022)

Doug7131 said:


> Well if the R6mk2 has a 24mp sensor then Canon have 2 options:
> Create a entirely new sensor with all the associated cost such as design, testing, fabrication, firmware development and setting up a new production line. A process that would cost millions and take many months if not years.
> Or:
> Just use the existing 24mp R3 sensor which has almost no upfront costs other than to expand the capacity of an existing production line. This also cuts development time massively. Then just limit features in firmware.
> ...


Or they can do Option A and use the sensor for the next few iterations of the R6 line. 24MP (6k) is plenty for a long long, long while.

And it looks like they're doing Option A anyway. So colour me unsurprised.


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## cary (Oct 29, 2022)

This guy indicates his "validated and trusted source" confirmed R6 II will have a BSI stacked sensor. A full-frame stacked sensor at a cost less than Fuji's stacked sensor X-H2S? Is that going to happen?


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## LSXPhotog (Oct 29, 2022)

“Canon RF 135mm f/1.8L IS USM $2099”

We’ll that’s a no brainer to join the kit immediately. Hopefully they didn’t sacrifice autofocus speed in this process, but I’m eager to get a 135L back in my bag. It was one of my most used lenses until I sold it along with my EF 70-200 to fund the RF 70-200.

My curiosity for the R6 remains. What is going on with this sensor? Will the body introduce the multifunction shoe? Will there be an ability to save video custom shooting modes?


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## bergstrom (Oct 29, 2022)

Looking at the specs, if you were to make 2 lists 

1)the usual stuff

and 2) innovation

the innovation list would be pretty empty.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 29, 2022)

LSXPhotog said:


> “Canon RF 135mm f/1.8L IS USM $2099”
> 
> We’ll that’s a no brainer to join the kit immediately. Hopefully they didn’t sacrifice autofocus speed in this process, but I’m eager to get a 135L back in my bag. It was one of my most used lenses until I sold it along with my EF 70-200 to fund the RF 70-200.


$2100 is a tempting price, but I sold my EF 135L long ago when I realized the 70-200/2.8 II was much more useful to me. I have the RF 70-200/2.8 so I don’t plan to pick up the RF 135L.


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## scyrene (Oct 29, 2022)

A lot of focus on the sensor architecture(?), so I'm going to ask, a genuine question, what practical difference does it make in terms of photographic capability, if it's "stacked" or "BSI". I know what the terms mean but how do they impact real world use? Is it edge cases - very low light, very fast shutter speed, pushing the envelope of DR, or in video? Thanks


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## Tom W (Oct 29, 2022)

Franklyok said:


> Is it from old 6D2 or Rp?


That would be a step backwards. It's either stacked or of similar or improved design compared to the present R6 & R5. Both are fairly fast readout sensors, even though not stacked.


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## Tom W (Oct 29, 2022)

As for the 135 f/1.8, an intriguing lens, but I have the EF 135/2 which is an exceptionally good lens as is. It would take a lot to get me to part with it in favor of the new one.


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## john1970 (Oct 29, 2022)

The price on the RF 135 mm f1.8 L lens was quite good at $2100. I just contacted my local dealer to put me on the pre-order list. 

My guess is that the R6II will be a BSI sensor, but not be stacked to differentiate from the R3.


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## john1970 (Oct 29, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> Z6ii has a bsi stacked sensor and is 1800$ or around there


The Nikon Z6 II is a BSI senor, but is not stacked. For a $600 premium over the Z6 II is Canon going to offer a BSI staked sensor? I doubt it, but if proven wrong it would put the R6 II in a class of its own.


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## HMC11 (Oct 29, 2022)

carys said:


> This guy indicates his "validated and trusted source" confirmed R6 II will have a BSI stacked sensor. A full-frame stacked sensor at a cost less than Fuji's stacked sensor X-H2S? Is that going to happen?


If the R6 II has a BSI stacked sensor, I can't wait to see what Canon would bring to the R5 II. Global shutter on top of BSI stacked sensor after the R1 lead with it?


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 29, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> I have learned that this forum is full of know it all’s





NorskHest said:


> Z6ii has a bsi stacked sensor and is 1800$ or around there


Perhaps not with people who know it ALL, but certainly with people who know more of it than you.


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## speg (Oct 29, 2022)

Interesting that we didn’t see the current R6 discounted in Canon’s current sales.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 29, 2022)

sanj said:


> The Speedlight interests me. I wait to know more.


I’m curious, but I suspect based on pricing this will be to the EL-1 as the 430 is to the 600. 

Personally, I’m much more interested in a multifunction shoe native version of the EL-1.


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## fox40phil (Oct 29, 2022)

For me the 135 is a bit to high. 
I love my 135 2.0L. Bought for 700€ years ago. Got a repair for 200€...but works very nice. The only thing I hate is: It only works very slow (fps) with the R6/7. Its on the list for lenses without the full speed of the R5/6.


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## danfaz (Oct 29, 2022)

Tom W said:


> As for the 135 f/1.8, an intriguing lens, but I have the EF 135/2 which is an exceptionally good lens as is. It would take a lot to get me to part with it in favor of the new one.


Agreed the EF is still a worthy lens, but the lack of weather resistance and IS are significant weaknesses. I imagine the optics will be improved after 26 years, too, so I will be sorely tempted to pick one up.


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## Skyscraperfan (Oct 29, 2022)

The R6 had the same sensor as the 1DX Mark III. So it seems logical that the R6 Mark II has the same sensor as the R3.


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## NorskHest (Oct 29, 2022)

blackcoffee17 said:


> The Z6 II has no stacked sensor, just BSI. The cheapest FF stacked sensor is probably in the A9.


Well hot damn. Maybe canon is turning a new page of over deliver


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## NorskHest (Oct 29, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Are you sure it is stacked? I thought it was a Sony BSI but not stacked sensor.


Yeah I was wrong. Just bsi. My brain was just thinking well bsi is usually stacked so obvi the Nikon bsi is stacked


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## kafala (Oct 29, 2022)

I currently have the a7iv with a couple gm lenses. However, I hate sony's ibis and color science. I would get the R6 II in a heartbeat if it doesn't overheat, it has aperture priority for video which the current R6 lacks, switch or knob to go easily from video to photo like the Nikon z6, being able to save custom video and picture modes like the A7iv, and 10 bit 4.2.2 all -i video in standard mode like the a7iv. They also need to come out with a RF 35mm 1.4 lens. 1.2 is unnecessary for 35mm focal length and will make it a bazooka.


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## reisi007 (Oct 29, 2022)

speg said:


> Interesting that we didn’t see the current R6 discounted in Canon’s current sales.


There is a 300€ Cashback in the EU.....


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## notalchymy (Oct 29, 2022)

Wishing into existence for the Mark ii 


4k 60 uncropped option like in the R7
No Record Limit
Photo/Video Switch
_Stacked Sensor?_
I dont really mind the compression methods either, IPB is just fine, and stacked sensor is whatever for me. Literally 3 things would make this the PERFECT camera for me.


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## raptor3x (Oct 29, 2022)

Doug7131 said:


> Well if the R6mk2 has a 24mp sensor then Canon have 2 options:
> Create a entirely new sensor with all the associated cost such as design, testing, fabrication, firmware development and setting up a new production line. A process that would cost millions and take many months if not years.
> Or:
> Just use the existing 24mp R3 sensor which has almost no upfront costs other than to expand the capacity of an existing production line. This also cuts development time massively. Then just limit features in firmware.
> ...


There's another option there. They could do something similar to what Sony did in the A7iii where they reused the sensor design of the A9 but without the stacked DRAM layer. I think it's likely too though that it will be the R3 sensor. Afterall, they did use the 1DXiii sensor in the original R6.


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## notalchymy (Oct 29, 2022)

Unchecked said:


> Not sure why y'all are expecting a stacked sensor in the first place. The R6 is Canon's two thousand something dollar full frame camera. It's main competition is the a7iv and the Z6ii (iii). They are not going to look too dissimilar from each other i.e. not stacked sensor.
> 
> Full frame stacked sensors is a premium feature. The only way a full frame stacked sensor will make it's way down the product lineup is when there's a new tech at the top becoming the new premium feature, making stacked sensors "old tech" and then moving downwards to the lower tier bodies.


This and Z6 ii and R3 have Cf Express cards for the faster readout? I think its unlikely for a stacked sensor with just SD Card slots?


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## PhotoGenerous (Oct 29, 2022)

Everyone talking about the sensor or the 135. A few about the speedlite. But what's a $100 feature that leads to a whole second model that aids in stop motion video?


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## Exploreshootshare (Oct 29, 2022)

speg said:


> Interesting that we didn’t see the current R6 discounted in Canon’s current sales.


There is a 300 € cash back discount on the R6 in Germany at the moment. 
If the announcement is within the next weeks it might get a discount in addition to the cash back. I figure the announcement is days, 2 weeks at most, away because the price has already leaked.


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## Chaitanya (Oct 29, 2022)

$100 more for stop motion animation looks reasonable, Canon had 2 Astro camera but this might be only 2nd Dedicated stop motion Digital camera. Its been a long time.


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## reisi007 (Oct 29, 2022)

notalchymy said:


> This and Z6 ii and R3 have Cf Express cards for the faster readout? I think its unlikely for a stacked sensor with just SD Card slots?



Well, less fps and you are good to go with SD... The buffer / write speed of the R7 is enough for 30 FPS burst, 20 FPS electronically.... Good enough for a 24 MP sensor I guess


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 29, 2022)

notalchymy said:


> This and Z6 ii and R3 have Cf Express cards for the faster readout? I think its unlikely for a stacked sensor with just SD Card slots?


I write RAW to both CFe and SD on my R3, and I haven’t had issues in my real-world use. But I don’t shoot video with my R3 and I don’t mash down the shutter button until my finger gets tired.


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## jam05 (Oct 29, 2022)

Doug7131 said:


> Well if the R6mk2 has a 24mp sensor then Canon have 2 options:
> Create a entirely new sensor with all the associated cost such as design, testing, fabrication, firmware development and setting up a new production line. A process that would cost millions and take many months if not years.
> Or:
> Just use the existing 24mp R3 sensor which has almost no upfront costs other than to expand the capacity of an existing production line. This also cuts development time massively. Then just limit features in firmware.
> ...


Actually stacked sensored devices are standard, and not premium at all. Only camera affictionados and non tech savy persons believe that stacked sensor are anything but the defacto 2022 standard. Any other sensor in a high end device over $1500 is simply outdated and obsolete technology. Waste your money at your leisure. I will Never purchase another new high end device with a basic plain BSI CMOS. 


vignes said:


> Not with FF sensor


Its actually cheaper to manufacture stacked sensors. The fabrication plants are already configured to manufacture them because thats exactly what they produce regularly. SOCs and stacked image sensors. Also, all layers do not have to be fabbed at the same time or from the same manufacturing facility. Stacked sensors are CHEAPER to manufacture than the older BSI CMOS sensors.


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## jam05 (Oct 29, 2022)

reisi007 said:


> Well, less fps and you are good to go with SD... The buffer / write speed of the R7 is enough for 30 FPS burst, 20 FPS electronically.... Good enough for a 24 MP sensor I guess


The stacked sensor is not dependent on the storage device. It needs NO storage device to perform


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## Jayk0607 (Oct 29, 2022)

Tom W said:


> As for the 135 f/1.8, an intriguing lens, but I have the EF 135/2 which is an exceptionally good lens as is. It would take a lot to get me to part with it in favor of the new one.


EF 135/2 been in my radar for many years but never really had a chance to get it. I have RF 70-200/2.8 and Samyang 85/1.4. I shoot mostly portrait of my daughter/newphew and niece. Do you think EF 135/2 is worth it on top of those 2 lenses?


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## jam05 (Oct 29, 2022)

A lot of complete misunderstanding here about the stacked sensor architecture and performance requirements. It needs no external storage device to achieve its high performance readout nor is its manufacturing process any more costlier than the older BSI CMOS devices. Actually due to facilities producing them currently in droves, the processing cost is relatively cheaper. And even less if layers are produced separately by different facilities.


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## GoranS (Oct 29, 2022)

Will Canon discontinue the R6 or move it down to the 1800-2000 usd price bracket - still a great camera for many, stills and video?


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## Exploreshootshare (Oct 29, 2022)

GoranS said:


> Will Canon discontinue the R6 or move it down to the 1800-2000 usd price bracket - still a great camera for many, stills and video?


Canon usually discontinues a camera once a successor is released. I could imagine though Canon would keep the R6 around until the mkii is available in larger numbers.

Keeping the R6 and moving down from a price point only makes sense if they're a big gap spec wise between the cameras. Unless the sensor is the stacked BSI sensor from the R3, I don't see that in this case.

Furthermore, if Canon releases the R8 as speculated there is no reason and room to keep the original R6 in the line-up.

Consider of course, there is stock of the R6, so it will be available for quite a while. Heck, even the original 6d can still be bought as a "new camera".


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## mpb001 (Oct 29, 2022)

These specs look good. As well
As the price. The R6II will have a 24 mp BSI sensor. I think that the only thing I wish was it had a 30-32 MP sensor but another rumor out there is the forthcoming R8 will be have a 30 MP sensor. Not BSI but will have IBIS. This is probably the camera that interests me the most because I am a photographer only. Do not shoot any video.


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## Kit. (Oct 29, 2022)

jam05 said:


> A lot of complete misunderstanding here about the stacked sensor architecture and performance requirements. It needs no external storage device to achieve its high performance readout nor is its manufacturing process any more costlier than the older BSI CMOS devices.


Isn't BSI expensive itself?

Isn't BSI (without stacking) an overkill for a 6 µm pixel pitch device?


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## Bdbtoys (Oct 29, 2022)

PhotoGenerous said:


> Everyone talking about the sensor or the 135. A few about the speedlite. But what's a $100 feature that leads to a whole second model that aids in stop motion video?


This is not new... the R & RP could be configured with the Stop Motion Firmware too.

Here's what was said in the store page on those previous cameras...
"Get ready to create Stop Motion Animation with Canons EOS R with Stop Motion Animation firmware. The EOS R with Stop Motion Animation firmware increases the live view resolution allowing the Animator to confirm focus within a larger frame when utilized with Dragonframe stop motion software."


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## drisley (Oct 29, 2022)

I still hate that it doesn't have a top LCD or magnesium alloy body. Even the R had these things (and a bigger/higher res LCD on back)
That 4K60 crop better not be like the A7IV (1.5x). That would be a huge step backwards from the original R6 and one of the reasons I refused to buy the A7IV.


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## entoman (Oct 29, 2022)

The most interesting feature of this camera to me is the "digital teleconverter" - AFAIK this is the first time that such a feature has been incorporated into a *professional-level* camera. Perhaps Canon have some software "AI" algorithm that could produce results equal to those obtained by an optical converter?


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## drisley (Oct 29, 2022)

entoman said:


> The most interesting feature of this camera to me is the "digital teleconverter" - AFAIK this is the first time that such a feature has been incorporated into a *professional-level* camera. Perhaps Canon have some software "AI" algorithm that could produce results equal to those obtained by an optical converter?


Would this be like the Clear Image zoom feature that Sony has in their cameras?


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## Johnw (Oct 29, 2022)

entoman said:


> The most interesting feature of this camera to me is the "digital teleconverter" - AFAIK this is the first time that such a feature has been incorporated into a *professional-level* camera. Perhaps Canon have some software "AI" algorithm that could produce results equal to those obtained by an optical converter?



Well you have always been able to shoot in crop mode which is similar to having a 1.6x optical TC.


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## mxwphoto (Oct 29, 2022)

Jayk0607 said:


> EF 135/2 been in my radar for many years but never really had a chance to get it. I have RF 70-200/2.8 and Samyang 85/1.4. I shoot mostly portrait of my daughter/newphew and niece. Do you think EF 135/2 is worth it on top of those 2 lenses?


I think you will find the difference between 135 and the 70-200 at the same focal length to be minimal. 70-200 is more flexible so you can zoom in or out better on the kids.

The only reason I have 135 is because i got it for $460usd and I personally prefer using lighter primes than zooms (the EF 70-200 is 2x the weight). The RF 70-200 is only 25% heavier (with adapter taken into account) so it is a lot better in that sense.

I rotate between 35, 50, 85, and 135 L primes, use just one lens per outing with kids and try to get good compositions given the fov limitations. Keeps gear light, mind sharp, and body active with the foot zooms.


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## entoman (Oct 29, 2022)

Johnw said:


> Well you have always been able to shoot in crop mode which is similar to having a 1.6x optical TC.


Shooting in crop mode means you get a smaller image (less megapixels). If you want/need a high megapixel image, you then have to use a program such as Topaz Gigapixel, which uses advanced interpolation methods to create "false detail" and fill in the "missing" data.

A "digital teleconverter" would produce a full frame image. Conventional interpolation methods result in "false detail" and artefacts such as "jaggies". It's possible that Canon could be using advanced in-camera software similar to Gigapixel, which might produce sharper and more detailed results than those obtained by optical converters. Only time will tell.


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## binary (Oct 29, 2022)

I really hope they will improve battery life. It literally stressing me out every time I'm going out for shooting. It's basically half capacity of newer Sony A7 lineup.


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## PhotoGenerous (Oct 29, 2022)

Bdbtoys said:


> This is not new... the R & RP could be configured with the Stop Motion Firmware too.
> 
> Here's what was said in the store page on those previous cameras...
> "Get ready to create Stop Motion Animation with Canons EOS R with Stop Motion Animation firmware. The EOS R with Stop Motion Animation firmware increases the live view resolution allowing the Animator to confirm focus within a larger frame when utilized with Dragonframe stop motion software."


But if that's the case, and it's simply a firmware thing, why two models at different price points? I suppose they did that with the 5DIV and 5DIV with c-log upgrade, but that seemed more like a product correction not a here's an model variant to buy. Is the hundred dollar difference going to impact sales that dramatically that if they just had all R6II's have it included that it would significantly impact sales? I assume they're not losing money by including third party Dragonframe software, and the price increase helps cover the software inclusion if that's what the cost difference is about.

I'm pretty ignorant to what the stop motion market is like, and why it would necessitate this special R6II-StopMotion alongside R6II-Regular, rather than go the simple route and just make one R6II. A special EOS-Ra that has a physical difference for a specific group makes sense to me. Firmware only confuses me.


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## binary (Oct 29, 2022)

Unchecked said:


> Not sure why y'all are expecting a stacked sensor in the first place. The R6 is Canon's two thousand something dollar full frame camera. It's main competition is the a7iv and the Z6ii (iii). They are not going to look too dissimilar from each other i.e. not stacked sensor.
> 
> Full frame stacked sensors is a premium feature. The only way a full frame stacked sensor will make it's way down the product lineup is when there's a new tech at the top becoming the new premium feature, making stacked sensors "old tech" and then moving downwards to the lower tier bodies.


Canon and Nikon are basically responsible for stagnation in camera industry for many years. If it wasn't for hard offensive from Sony and A7 III we would probably still using DSLR cameras with very minor upgrades every 2-4 years. I think we have right to expect innovation and better cameras In every segment. I definitely expecting stacked sensor otherwise these rumoured specs reminds me of the old "good" Canon with minor upgrades.


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## Jonathan Thill (Oct 29, 2022)

carys said:


> This guy indicates his "validated and trusted source" confirmed R6 II will have a BSI stacked sensor. A full-frame stacked sensor at a cost less than Fuji's stacked sensor X-H2S? Is that going to happen?


This guy is Sandy Rivers and just reads CanonRumors like the rest of us.


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## AlanF (Oct 29, 2022)

entoman said:


> Shooting in crop mode means you get a smaller image (less megapixels). If you want/need a high megapixel image, you then have to use a program such as Topaz Gigapixel, which uses advanced interpolation methods to create "false detail" and fill in the "missing" data.
> 
> A "digital teleconverter" would produce a full frame image. Conventional interpolation methods result in "false detail" and artefacts such as "jaggies". It's possible that Canon could be using advanced in-camera software similar to Gigapixel, which might produce sharper and more detailed results than those obtained by optical converters. Only time will tell.


It's becoming remarkable what we can with software. A couple of days ago I was out with the R7 and RF 100-400mm and took a quick shot of a tiny bird far away, which was just good enough to identify it as a Meadow Pipit. Its image is only 203 px wide. Topaz AI "enhance" enlarges it to 812 px, somewhat plasticky, but it's the taste of things to come.


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## SwissFrank (Oct 29, 2022)

The entrance pupil should be 135mm/1.8=75mm. So, it can't be 72mm.
On the other hand, the old 135mm/2.0 (still love mine!) had an entrance pupil of 67.5 and 72mm filter, a 7% difference, so I'd expect >80mm (probably 82mm) for the 135/1.8 on that basis.

On the other hand reducing the cat's effect for corner out-of-focus highlights would be nice but would generally require a yet greater front element size. So let me say that if it IS bigger than 82mm, you'll be glad of it!


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## SwissFrank (Oct 29, 2022)

LSXPhotog said:


> I’m eager to get a 135L back in my bag. It was one of my most used lenses until I sold it


They don't go for much, I can't believe you sold it if you used it a lot. It's the only EF lens I'm using (other than a Sigma 28/1.4).


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## blackcoffee17 (Oct 29, 2022)

entoman said:


> The most interesting feature of this camera to me is the "digital teleconverter" - AFAIK this is the first time that such a feature has been incorporated into a *professional-level* camera. Perhaps Canon have some software "AI" algorithm that could produce results equal to those obtained by an optical converter?



Digital teleconverter simply means a 1.6x or 1.8x crop at 4K resolution video or something similar. Don't expect anything fancy or more than that. Similar feature is in many consumer Canon cameras.


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## SwissFrank (Oct 29, 2022)

danfaz said:


> I imagine the optics will be improved after 26 years, too



My 135/2 is so good, I have a hard time believing the EF will be much improved. OTOH if it is, I would love to trade up.

Some lenses have had huge improvement due to lens design software latest generation of really huge 50mm primes), CAD/CAM manufacturing (complicated zooms), or the RF short film-to-flange distance (wide angles). I don't think any of these apply too much to the sort of 85-200mm range, though. Are the RF 85's a lot sharper than the EF 85's? I haven't really checked as I can't be bothered to own one any more.


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## SwissFrank (Oct 29, 2022)

Exploreshootshare said:


> I could imagine though Canon would keep the R6 around until the mkii is available in larger numbers.


I could be wrong and would love to hear it but I imagine lenses and probably also cameras are probably manufactured in shorter batches. I'd guess R6 MkI might have been finished production last year and the assembly lines have long since switched to upcoming products (e.g., MkII).

So not to be argumentative but no, I don't think they'll "keep the R6 around." They're selling down their stock and when it's gone it's gone, I'd imagine. In fact they may have moved the MkII announcement a bit specifically to coincide with the MkI stock running out.

Canon's got no big incentive to stop selling something they have in the warehouse, nor to keep even a tiny production line making it if the MkII is being manufactured already. The only exception I can think of would be parts availability, which granted is a concern over the last few years.


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## LSXPhotog (Oct 29, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> They don't go for much, I can't believe you sold it if you used it a lot. It's the only EF lens I'm using (other than a Sigma 28/1.4).


I was more curious to get the RF 70-200 in my bag for what I do. At the time, I only had space in my bag to choose my 100-400 or my 70-200. But with the newer, smaller design, I could pack the both of the lenses. However, after selling the EF 135 and 70-200, I started to realize that missed having the 135L a lot…it was a very special lens and while the RF 70-200 is certainly great, it’s NOT a 135L. I also just like the size/weight of the 135 a lot. Hopefully the new model isn’t too large/heavy. Canon seems to be either going with designs that are surprisingly small…or surprisingly large. So it’s a roll of the dice. Haha


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## mxwphoto (Oct 29, 2022)

LSXPhotog said:


> I was more curious to get the RF 70-200 in my bag for what I do. At the time, I only had space in my bag to choose my 100-400 or my 70-200. But with the newer, smaller design, I could pack the both of the lenses. However, after selling the EF 135 and 70-200, I started to realize that missed having the 135L a lot…it was a very special lens and while the RF 70-200 is certainly great, it’s NOT a 135L. I also just like the size/weight of the 135 a lot. Hopefully the new model isn’t too large/heavy. Canon seems to be either going with designs that are surprisingly small…or surprisingly large. So it’s a roll of the dice. Haha


My money is on 1kg weight thereabout, which would be a 25-30% weight increase over the old lens. That said, with adapter on EF it becomes more of a 20% increase. 82mm thread front to match the RF 85mm 1.2.


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## scyrene (Oct 29, 2022)

entoman said:


> Shooting in crop mode means you get a smaller image (less megapixels). If you want/need a high megapixel image, you then have to use a program such as Topaz Gigapixel, which uses advanced interpolation methods to create "false detail" and fill in the "missing" data.
> 
> A "digital teleconverter" would produce a full frame image. Conventional interpolation methods result in "false detail" and artefacts such as "jaggies". It's possible that Canon could be using advanced in-camera software similar to Gigapixel, which might produce sharper and more detailed results than those obtained by optical converters. Only time will tell.


Every previous time some mysterious phrase was included in a rumour, which sent people into rapturous speculation, it turned out to be mundane. Much as I would love some amazing novel feature, I absolutely don't think that's what this will be. (I prefer the suggestion of using IBIS to move the sensor and get extra resolution by oversampling(?), the way other manufacturers do, which is then cropped, to your interpolation idea, fwiw).


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## Jethro (Oct 29, 2022)

PhotoGenerous said:


> But if that's the case, and it's simply a firmware thing, why two models at different price points? I suppose they did that with the 5DIV and 5DIV with c-log upgrade, but that seemed more like a product correction not a here's an model variant to buy. I


I'm not sure it's really a different model - it may just be shipping with a different specialised version of firmware?


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## RexxReviews (Oct 29, 2022)

Unchecked said:


> Not sure why y'all are expecting a stacked sensor in the first place. The R6 is Canon's two thousand something dollar full frame camera. It's main competition is the a7iv and the Z6ii (iii). They are not going to look too dissimilar from each other i.e. not stacked sensor.
> 
> Full frame stacked sensors is a premium feature. The only way a full frame stacked sensor will make it's way down the product lineup is when there's a new tech at the top becoming the new premium feature, making stacked sensors "old tech" and then moving downwards to the lower tier bodies.


Dude that's how the people on these boards are, they always want or think the cheapest cameras will be getting the highest end features. LOL


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## amfoto1 (Oct 29, 2022)

Franklyok said:


> Is it from old 6D2 or Rp?


No, those both used a 26MP sensor.


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## entoman (Oct 29, 2022)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Digital teleconverter simply means a 1.6x or 1.8x crop at 4K resolution video or something similar. Don't expect anything fancy or more than that. Similar feature is in many consumer Canon cameras.


I can't see Canon lifting a low quality digital teleconverter from a Powershot and dropping the software into a professional body. I'm expecting something more "fancy" and capable in the R6 Mkii.


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## jam05 (Oct 30, 2022)

Skux said:


> $2500 is a pretty good deal but there's no way it'll be a stacked sensor now.


$2500 is the exact price it should be with a stacked sensor. It shouldnt be overpriced. Stacked sensors are a easy to manufacture and they require less anciliary comonents


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## vignes (Oct 30, 2022)

I think this is the R6 Canon supposed to release initially but they rushed the R6 I with 1DX III sensor to provide a quick answer to the market demand. the 1DX III sensor tech is dated, was designed for DSLR and most likely not costly as R5 sensor. Just because the sensor was in a flagship DSLR doesn't mean it's 'expensive'.
the R5 sensor is built from the ground-up for Mirrorless and has faster readout than R6/1DX III sensor.
The R6 II sensor would be the same i.e. faster readout than R5 but not R3 (stacked sensor). it'll have minimal rolling shutter effect and that's probably one of the reason maybe some R6 II tester felt that it was stacked sensor.

My Guess (just guessing)...line is looking like:
24Mpx line: R6 II enthusiast and R3 pro line (stacked sensor)
45-50Mpx line: R5 pro/enthusiast and R1 pro line (stacked sensor with QPAF, 9M EVF, open gate, 8K 60p or even a short 8K 120P, stills FPS with 60 fps with AE/AF - RAW, higher w/o AE/AF etc.)

we may get a 30-40Mpx camera with stacked sensor in compact/modular form factor but priced between R5 and R3.


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## KT (Oct 30, 2022)

Skux said:


> $2500 is a pretty good deal but there's no way it'll be a stacked sensor now.


I was hoping for poor man's R3 with the same stacked sensor, but minus the eye-controlled AF and crazy FPS rate, at half price. Now that sounds a bit wishful thinking now. 

It'll probably still be a good camera but not what I was hoping for and will be hard to justify if you owned either the R6 or R5.


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## jam05 (Oct 30, 2022)

vignes said:


> Not with FF sensor


The Canon EOS R5 was released nearly $1000 below the 1DX series flagship with nearly a decade of technology advancements


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## Aussie shooter (Oct 30, 2022)

I don't get why so many people are convinced it can't be the stacked sensor from the R3. Surely once the development of the sensor is done it is cheaper for canon to use it as many times as possible as opposed to developing a new sensor that isn't stacked just for a cheaper camera.


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## jam05 (Oct 30, 2022)

Unchecked said:


> Not sure why y'all are expecting a stacked sensor in the first place. The R6 is Canon's two thousand something dollar full frame camera. It's main competition is the a7iv and the Z6ii (iii). They are not going to look too dissimilar from each other i.e. not stacked sensor.
> 
> Full frame stacked sensors is a premium feature. The only way a full frame stacked sensor will make it's way down the product lineup is when there's a new tech at the top becoming the new premium feature, making stacked sensors "old tech" and then moving downwards to the l
> 
> ...


And those are all overpriced for the hardware internals inside. Mediocre tech and firmware.


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## Chig (Oct 30, 2022)

Doug7131 said:


> Well if the R6mk2 has a 24mp sensor then Canon have 2 options:
> Create a entirely new sensor with all the associated cost such as design, testing, fabrication, firmware development and setting up a new production line. A process that would cost millions and take many months if not years.
> Or:
> Just use the existing 24mp R3 sensor which has almost no upfront costs other than to expand the capacity of an existing production line. This also cuts development time massively. Then just limit features in firmware.
> ...


The R6 has an identical sensor to Canon's flagship 1DXiii so using the R3 sensor for the R6ii isn't out of the question and would make the R6ii much more competitive . Once the sensor is developed then the production costs may well be not much higher than FSI non stacked.
Perhaps Canon plan to use BSI stacked sensors on all their mid to high end bodies from now on ?


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## antonio_s (Oct 30, 2022)

The price for the 135mm is better than I would have expected. Probably will not part with my Sigma but looks like a competitive option vs. other systems and I like the 135mm focal length.

Wonder what the R5ii will bring. I am quite happy with the R5, though.


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## Unchecked (Oct 30, 2022)

KT said:


> I was hoping for poor man's R3 with the same stacked sensor, but minus the eye-controlled AF and crazy FPS rate, at half price. Now that sounds a bit wishful thinking now.
> 
> It'll probably still be a good camera but not what I was hoping for and will be hard to justify if you owned either the R6 or R5.


The thing is at $6k, the R3 is way overpriced to begin with. What they really should have done in the beginning and should do next is drop it down to the a9ii's price point of $4,500.

If and when Nikon releases a Z8 that competes against the R3 and a9ii, it'll probably be around that $4k~$5k price range, and maybe only then will it force Canon to rethink it's R3 pricing strategy.


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## Uneternal (Oct 30, 2022)

This is such a weird move, to lauch it at the same price like the R6. I bet it'll make a lot of people mad who bought the original R6 right now or a few months ago.
I seems to me like a rushed move to have a more competitive model against the Sony A7IV. So who knows, there might even be the same sensor like in the R3, because they didn't have enough time to develop something new.


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## [email protected] (Oct 30, 2022)

Will be interesting to get my mitts on the 135mm f/1.8. Can compare it to my Sigma and a friend's old f/2 Canon. Pricing it at $2k is a bit better than I expected. That's only 50 percent more than the Sigma. My guess is that the image quality will be about the same, but the Canon will be lighter and perhaps sync better with in-body stabilization. If it gets 8 stops of total stabilization, like the 28-70 f/2, then I'd upgrade from the Sigma. As it is, the Sigma is a like a new lens for me now that Canon caught up with IBIS.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 30, 2022)

Unchecked said:


> What they really should have done in the beginning and should do next is drop [tge R3 price] down to the a9ii's price point of $4,500.





Uneternal said:


> This is such a weird move, to lauch it at the same price like the R6. I bet it'll make a lot of people mad who bought the original R6 right now or a few months ago.


With such strong logical consistency, I’m surprised Canon hasn’t engaged you as a consultant on their pricing strategy.


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## JohnC (Oct 30, 2022)

I find it interesting how many people know exactly what Canon will or should do in their strategy in order to succeed. 

In most cases Canon does things differently yet they succeed anyway.

Why would you sell an R3 at 4.5k when you can sell nearly all you can make at 6k? I think I would keep putting the 1.5k each in my pocket as long as possible.

Whatever the exact final specs of the R6II are, I’m sure Canon decided them some time ago. I’m also sure they are designed in such a way as to maximize profit (and not necessarily units sold) which isn’t the same thing at all.


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## Uneternal (Oct 30, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> With such strong logical consistency, I’m surprised Canon hasn’t engaged you as a consultant on their pricing strategy.


Well thank god you aren't, can't even tell 2 names apart.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 30, 2022)

JohnC said:


> I find it interesting how many people know exactly what Canon will or should do in their strategy in order to succeed.
> 
> In most cases Canon does things differently yet they succeed anyway.


Yes, many people on this forum seem to think they know far more about making and selling cameras than the company that dominates the ILC market and has led it for two decades.

Somehow, they don’t realize how asinine their claims sound. It’s both amusing and sad.

I suspect in most cases it’s really just a form of wishing. When they say, “If Canon doesn’t do X or make Y, they’re d00med,” they mean they want X or Y. When they say, “This camera is overpriced, Canon should charge less,” they mean they want the camera but can’t afford it.


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## Jethro (Oct 30, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> That wooshing sound was the point sailing over your head.
> 
> Since it’s clear that your metacognition is not up to the task, let me rephrase your posts in words you can understand:
> 
> ...


He means there were 2 separate posters (Unchecked and Uneternal) making the contradictory statements.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 30, 2022)

Jethro said:


> He means there were 2 separate posters (Unchecked and Uneternal) making the contradictory statements.


Egad, I totally missed that. Apologies to @Uneternal and @Unchecked, I should have read more carefully.


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## Unchecked (Oct 30, 2022)

JohnC said:


> I find it interesting how many people know exactly what Canon will or should do in their strategy in order to succeed.
> 
> In most cases Canon does things differently yet they succeed anyway.
> 
> ...



Why? Because they can sell plenty more $4.5k cameras than they do $6k. People around the interwebs (unrealistically) wishing the R6ii have a stacked sensor shows there's a market appetite for a cheaper stacked sensor camera that's not at $6k. Canon can meet them halfway at the $4.5k price point.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 30, 2022)

Unchecked said:


> Why? Because they can sell plenty more $4.5k cameras than they do $6k.


More cameras with a $1500 lower unit margin. It’s possible that you know more about marketing cameras than Canon. It’s also possible that I’ll win the next billion-dollar Powerball lottery. But neither is very likely.


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## JohnC (Oct 30, 2022)

Unchecked said:


> Why? Because they can sell plenty more $4.5k cameras than they do $6k. People around the interwebs (unrealistically) wishing the R6ii have a stacked sensor shows there's a market appetite for a cheaper stacked sensor camera that's not at $6k. Canon can meet them halfway at the $4.5k price point.


But in the real world those numbers don’t work. Without getting too far into the weeds gross margin is likely in the 25% range, perhaps as high as 30 but that is pushing it. That’s 1800 on a 6k camera. So you could theoretically reduce price that much (not really) but you could never make enough cameras to cover the loss in margin. Doesn’t matter how high the demand is, because you would have to increase manufacturing capacity which increases fixed costs, and there goes your margin again. 

Just doesn’t work like this. There isn’t as much margin in this stuff as most think.


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## sanj (Oct 30, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> $2100 is a tempting price, but I sold my EF 135L long ago when I realized the 70-200/2.8 II was much more useful to me. I have the RF 70-200/2.8 so I don’t plan to pick up the RF 135L.


Is this an L lens?


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## mxwphoto (Oct 30, 2022)

sanj said:


> Is this an L lens?


Yes, it is.
I will eat my shoe if Canon comes out with the 135mm as a non-L lens at that price point.

It would be nice if they came out with a modern day version of the non-L 135mm soft focus lens. That thing was fun to play with but once soft focus control was on the camera's autofocus just wouldn't work properly. I had to shoot in focus stack mode of 10 images to pick out the sharp one each time.


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## Czardoom (Oct 30, 2022)

jam05 said:


> $2500 is the exact price it should be with a stacked sensor. It shouldnt be overpriced. Stacked sensors are a easy to manufacture and they require less anciliary comonents


You know, if you keep repeating it over and over, maybe someone, someday will believe it. But not likely. Nor as you contend, are stacked sensors the norm for an ILC camera. There are only 7 models that have one. Nikon has 1 (Z9), Canon has 1 (R3), Sony has 3 (A1, A9 II and A9), Olympus has 1 (OM-1) and Fuji has 1 (X-H2S). If a stacked sensor is a requirement for you, that's fine. But if you keep rattling on about how anything coming out in 2022 has to have one or it must be some type of antiquated junk, is just plain stupid.


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## Czardoom (Oct 30, 2022)

Unchecked said:


> The thing is at $6k, the R3 is way overpriced to begin with. What they really should have done in the beginning and should do next is drop it down to the a9ii's price point of $4,500.
> 
> If and when Nikon releases a Z8 that competes against the R3 and a9ii, it'll probably be around that $4k~$5k price range, and maybe only then will it force Canon to rethink it's R3 pricing strategy.


Apparently you are forgetting the R3 is a far more rugged, pro level body with integrated grip, and the Sony A9 is not, nor will the rumored Nikon Z8 be in that same category.


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## Jayk0607 (Oct 30, 2022)

JohnC said:


> But in the real world those numbers don’t work. Without getting too far into the weeds gross margin is likely in the 25% range, perhaps as high as 30 but that is pushing it. That’s 1800 on a 6k camera. So you could theoretically reduce price that much (not really) but you could never make enough cameras to cover the loss in margin. Doesn’t matter how high the demand is, because you would have to increase manufacturing capacity which increases fixed costs, and there goes your margin again.
> 
> Just doesn’t work like this. There isn’t as much margin in this stuff as most think.


Some people don't realize how much work is done to come up with such business decisions. There were probably hundreds of people working behind the scene, both internal and many external consultants and massive data and analysis to come up with the price they decided - it's not like few executives fiddling their thumbs and go.. hmm I think $2,500 is the right price.


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## aledronix (Oct 30, 2022)

esglord said:


> Sold! Well probably. Want to see the mk I discount. Anyone have an idea how long they might keep selling the mk i alongside based in historical norm?


Until they run out )


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## TukTuk (Oct 30, 2022)

Aussie shooter said:


> I don't get why so many people are convinced it can't be the stacked sensor from the R3. Surely once the development of the sensor is done it is cheaper for canon to use it as many times as possible as opposed to developing a new sensor that isn't stacked just for a cheaper camera.


because for stacked (or non stacked) sensors the cost is not in development but in manufacturing ... 1DxII / 1DxIII sensor (a little tuned 1DxII sensor paired with better processor) was cheap to make, the price of that camera was because of the camera itself and its position in the lineup, not because its sensor cost was 3/4 of the camera price - so cheap FSI old sensor (which dates really to 1DxII time) made its way into cheap camera (R6) ... even Sony Semi which makes way more stacked sensors for much longer than Canon can't make them cheap enough and Canon managed to put just one stacked sensor into production dSLM while Sony Semi makes A1, Z9, A9 - several marks, X-H2S, OM-1


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## TukTuk (Oct 30, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> Are the RF 85's a lot sharper than the EF 85's? I haven't really checked as I can't be bothered to own one any more.



there are tests @ optical limits site - EF 85mm f/1.2 USM L II is not that great @ borders wide open or close to wide open on 21mp sensor ( see how border fare vs center) while RF one does well @ 30mp (the same see how borders fare vs center)


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## TukTuk (Oct 30, 2022)

Unchecked said:


> he R3 is way overpriced to begin with.


so far Canon sells each one they manage to make, so I 'd say it is underpriced still


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## ZenYogiVegan (Oct 30, 2022)

I'm curious as to why there has been no mention of overheating in the specs of the R6II. I guess we'll find out soon enough!


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## 1in8billion (Oct 30, 2022)

Skux said:


> $2500 is a pretty good deal but there's no way it'll be a stacked sensor now.


It still may be stacked. It could be modified but still the same sensor. With the competition, they know giving it the R3 sensor will be huge and they don’t have to retool so there’s cost savings. Plus due to competition, that could be why the price is good. I wouldn’t count it out.


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## 1in8billion (Oct 30, 2022)

TukTuk said:


> so far Canon sells each one they manage to make, so I 'd say it is underpriced still


I’ve been ignoring dumb comments like that lately. I’m so sick of people constantly saying stuff like that and not a peep about the A7IV being disappointing and the A7V being basically a two year old R5 for the same price, worse auto focus and still worse IBIS.


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## SwissFrank (Oct 30, 2022)

ZenYogiVegan said:


> I'm curious as to why there has been no mention of overheating in the specs of the R6II. I guess we'll find out soon enough!


Maybe the product release is delayed because they're still working on making it overheat :-D


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## Deleted member 381342 (Oct 30, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> Z6ii has a bsi stacked sensor and is 1800$ or around there


The only Nikon with a stacked sensor is the Z9. The Z6 and Z6ii are BSI sensors and not stacked. The Z6iii will also be a non-stacked sensor since I am sure Nikon don’t want to double its cost.


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## Aussie shooter (Oct 30, 2022)

TukTuk said:


> because for stacked (or non stacked) sensors the cost is not in development but in manufacturing ... 1DxII / 1DxIII sensor (a little tuned 1DxII sensor paired with better processor) was cheap to make, the price of that camera was because of the camera itself and its position in the lineup, not because its sensor cost was 3/4 of the camera price - so cheap FSI old sensor (which dates really to 1DxII time) made its way into cheap camera (R6) ... even Sony Semi which makes way more stacked sensors for much longer than Canon can't make them cheap enough and Canon managed to put just one stacked sensor into production dSLM while Sony Semi makes A1, Z9, A9 - several marks, X-H2S, OM-1


So exactly what is the price difference between a stacked and non stacked sensor? And is it so much that it would make reusing one economically unviable?


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## esglord (Oct 30, 2022)

Canon will sell as many R3’s as they can at a high price to those unwilling to wait. When they’ve met that demand, they will drop the price and hit the next group of buyers and sell more units at the lower margin, thereby maximizing their average profit margin over time and getting close to the maximum that each individual purchaser is willing to pay. Market segmentation. A discounted mk I will extract value from customers who were never willing to pay $2500 while Mk ii maintains the original profit margin for a different consumer that is willing to pay more for a bit more resolution, again maximizing profit per sale. It’s a time tested pricing model with little difference from offering matinee and senior discounts at the movie theater.


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## Uneternal (Oct 30, 2022)

Jayk0607 said:


> Some people don't realize how much work is done to come up with such business decisions. There were probably hundreds of people working behind the scene, both internal and many external consultants and massive data and analysis to come up with the price they decided - it's not like few executives fiddling their thumbs and go.. hmm I think $2,500 is the right price.


Some people don't realize that too many cooks can spoil the broth. And having a lot of people aiding your business decisions doesn't mean you're making better decisions than some people in a forum (who have decades of experience). See Kodak, see Nokia, see Meta, see Samsung's camera department.
A lot of times, in such huge businesses the head doesn't know what the tail does, Managers are often out of contact with the demand of customers and probably should read what people have to say here. Also, in the end it's always up to 1 person to say we go with this or that, it's not like Canon's marketing did a voting and most employees voted for $2500. In the case of Nokia, the assessment of just 1 person brought the world's biggest cellphone manufacturer to fall. 
Therefore, dismissing opinions here with the argument "their assessments are better than yours" IMO is just arrogant fanboyism.


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## bradpaulp (Oct 30, 2022)

All I want to know is if there is an overheat recording limit like the first gen.
All of the new R series do not have this including the R7.

It would seem to me they have this figured out but the heat limit is an absolute no for me with the first R6, so I hope it doesn’t exist in the new one.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 30, 2022)

Uneternal said:


> See Kodak, see Nokia, see Meta, see Samsung's camera department.
> 
> Therefore, dismissing opinions here with the argument "their assessments are better than yours" IMO is just arrogant fanboyism.


See Apple, Coca-Cola, IBM, Intel, AT&T, Sony, General Mills, Toyota, Honda, Merck, Caterpillar, Honeywell, Cisco, 3M, and far too many other well-run companies to name.

Could you be correct about Canon’s R6II pricing strategy and Canon be wrong about it? Certainly, but the odds against it are extraordinarily high.

Basing a conclusion on a very small number of notable exceptions IMO is just asinine.


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## esglord (Oct 30, 2022)

aledronix said:


> Until they run out )


Thanks, that’s what I figured. Time to start convincing myself and my wife that we need it.


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## Jayk0607 (Oct 30, 2022)

Uneternal said:


> Some people don't realize that too many cooks can spoil the broth. And having a lot of people aiding your business decisions doesn't mean you're making better decisions than some people in a forum (who have decades of experience). See Kodak, see Nokia, see Meta, see Samsung's camera department.
> A lot of times, in such huge businesses the head doesn't know what the tail does, Managers are often out of contact with the demand of customers and probably should read what people have to say here. Also, in the end it's always up to 1 person to say we go with this or that, it's not like Canon's marketing did a voting and most employees voted for $2500. In the case of Nokia, the assessment of just 1 person brought the world's biggest cellphone manufacturer to fall.
> Therefore, dismissing opinions here with the argument "their assessments are better than yours" IMO is just arrogant fanboyism.


Not all decisions are right. You only listed somewhat failed businesses but I can also list lots of successful business with 'too many cooks'. Also I believe Samsung's decision was to focus on mobile, which they thrive in. You mentioned decades of experience and my comments being fanboyism - I have decades of experience in accounting/finance/business planning/budgeting in fortune 500 companies and big 4 accounting firms and have hands on experience with such business decisions. Regardless of how you personally think, that's how large businesses are run. They require data to back up their decisions.


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## scyrene (Oct 30, 2022)

Uneternal said:


> Some people don't realize that too many cooks can spoil the broth. And having a lot of people aiding your business decisions doesn't mean you're making better decisions than some people in a forum (who have decades of experience). See Kodak, see Nokia, see Meta, see Samsung's camera department.
> A lot of times, in such huge businesses the head doesn't know what the tail does, Managers are often out of contact with the demand of customers and probably should read what people have to say here. Also, in the end it's always up to 1 person to say we go with this or that, it's not like Canon's marketing did a voting and most employees voted for $2500. In the case of Nokia, the assessment of just 1 person brought the world's biggest cellphone manufacturer to fall.
> Therefore, dismissing opinions here with the argument "their assessments are better than yours" IMO is just arrogant fanboyism.


Kodak/Nokia klaxon! "fanboy" klaxon! You know best, everyone disagreeing is arrogant! You just forgot the D-word


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## Johnw (Oct 30, 2022)

Uneternal said:


> it's not like Canon's marketing did a voting and most employees voted for $2500



Why would you presume that a majority vote of the employees would be a reliable method for a corporation to set the price of a product? That’s rather delusional. Do the people in tech support or HR have relevant experience in marketing research or demand assessment? Probably not. Obviously it would be logical for the employees with the relevant domain experience to make that decision.

Even within the marketing department, the decision obviously should not be made based on what a majority of the employees think or want, but on what the market data is indicating. If a single employee presents a better read on the market data to a marketing director, a good leader certainly can go with that even if numerous others think differently.

As I’ve stated elsewhere, the process by which a corporation sets a product’s price generally has to do with assessing market demand at different price points and then determining what price point will maximize revenue for the corp (and profit factoring in the margins they project to achieve). This means that the price of $2500 for the R6 was likely set even before the final technical design was completely finished. Since the Mark II seems to be only a modest technical update over the original, it makes complete sense that Canon’s original market research or a modest update to it still holds that $2500 is the best price point.


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## navastronia (Oct 30, 2022)

Skux said:


> $2500 is a pretty good deal but there's no way it'll be a stacked sensor now.


I hate to say it, but you're probably right.


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## Chig (Oct 30, 2022)

aledronix said:


> Until they run out )


Canon stopped making their SLR flagship the eos 1v in 2007 I believe but kept selling them (very slowly as the demand was modest) until 2018 when they ran out of stock


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## victorshikhman (Oct 30, 2022)

aledronix said:


> Until they run out )



@esglord They will never ever run out. Refurb direct from Canon will still be selling the R6 in 2027, at the very least, and probably till end of decade. Brand new 6DII bodies are still being sold by Canon (at just 25% discount off launch price!), and that camera is from 2017. You have all the time in the world.


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## JohnC (Oct 30, 2022)

Chig said:


> Canon stopped making their SLR flagship the eos 1v in 2007 I believe but kept selling them (very slowly as the demand was modest) until 2018 when they ran out of stock


They didn’t fire sale them either. Commanded a pretty decent price till the end.


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## Kit. (Oct 30, 2022)

Uneternal said:


> Some people don't realize that too many cooks can spoil the broth. And having a lot of people aiding your business decisions doesn't mean you're making better decisions than some people in a forum (who have decades of experience). See Kodak, see Nokia, see Meta, see Samsung's camera department.
> A lot of times, in such huge businesses the head doesn't know what the tail does, Managers are often out of contact with the demand of customers and probably should read what people have to say here. Also, in the end it's always up to 1 person to say we go with this or that, it's not like Canon's marketing did a voting and most employees voted for $2500. In the case of Nokia, the assessment of just 1 person brought the world's biggest cellphone manufacturer to fall.
> Therefore, dismissing opinions here with the argument "their assessments are better than yours" IMO is just arrogant fanboyism.


I have decades of experience in arguing on the forums. Can we just assume that everything I say is right, or else "see Kodak"?


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## entoman (Oct 30, 2022)

vignes said:


> My Guess (just guessing)...line is looking like:
> 24Mpx line: R6 II enthusiast and R3 pro line (stacked sensor)


I think you're underestimating the R6/R6ii by referring to them as only "enthusiast" models. They may well be in the enthusiast price band, but there are plenty of pros using the R6, either as their main body, or as a secondary body to a R5 or R3.


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## PhotonShark (Oct 30, 2022)

With all this talk about stacked sensors, wouldn’t we all be pleased if the R6ii just moves from the current CMOS sensor to BSI CMOS?

At 24 megapixels, that would make a great camera for a lot of people. Including me.


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## Kit. (Oct 30, 2022)

PhotonShark said:


> With all this talk about stacked sensors, wouldn’t we all be pleased if the R6ii just moves from the current CMOS sensor to BSI CMOS?


What's the point? It has 6 μm pixel pitch. Plenty of space to put the front-side electronics where it doesn't get illuminated through the microlenses.


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## Bob Howland (Oct 30, 2022)

Johnw said:


> This means that the price of $2500 for the R6 was likely set even before the final technical design was completely finished.


I disagree. Setting the price early implies that everything is known about what competitors will do and what the general business climate will be at the time of introduction. Certainly there is a target price early on and the people managing the R&D have to know what that is. Any late price change probably won't be large but it is not impossible.


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## Czardoom (Oct 30, 2022)

Kit. said:


> What's the point? It has 6 μm pixel pitch. Plenty of space to put the front-side electronics where it doesn't get illuminated through the microlenses.


Gear-heads love BSI because it's newer. The fact that it doesn't really improve anything on FF cameras doesn't matter. I pity the camera companies when they get to the point (which they already are pretty much at) where you really can't improve much from one generation to the next. Reviewers, gear-heads and influencers will murder them. Intelligent camera buyers will be quite happy when their camera lasts 6 to 8 (or maybe more) years and they won't feel compelled to buy a new one. We reached that point with DSLRs, we are probably pretty close with mirrorless. The question is, will camera companies continue to spend a large amount on R&D, trying to squeeze out minor improvements and refresh their camera series's every 3 to 4 years, or will they realize that a new paradigm is needed - similar to the old film days - where a camera model might not be refreshed for many years. That's how I see it anyway, but could, of course, be wrong.


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## highdesertmesa (Oct 30, 2022)

Hoping for:

BSI stacked from the R3
No mechanical shutter
ES with full bit depth in single shot mode and the slowest continuous drive mode
Would be happy just with a non-stacked version of the R3 BSI sensor and the slight resolution bump.


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## highdesertmesa (Oct 30, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> Gear-heads love BSI because it's newer. The fact that it doesn't really improve anything on FF cameras doesn't matter. I pity the camera companies when they get to the point (which they already are pretty much at) where you really can't improve much from one generation to the next. Reviewers, gear-heads and influencers will murder them. Intelligent camera buyers will be quite happy when their camera lasts 6 to 8 (or maybe more) years and they won't feel compelled to buy a new one. We reached that point with DSLRs, we are probably pretty close with mirrorless. The question is, will camera companies continue to spend a large amount on R&D, trying to squeeze out minor improvements and refresh their camera series's every 3 to 4 years, or will they realize that a new paradigm is needed - similar to the old film days - where a camera model might not be refreshed for many years. That's how I see it anyway, but could, of course, be wrong.


When I've moved from FSI to BSI (GFX 50 to 100 / Leica SL and SL2 to SL2-S), I've seen a noticeable difference, particularly with regard to file pliability in post. One of the most notable improvements I've seen with BSI has been the ability to better retain color information in heavily-lifted shadow areas. (Also, I've seen better corner performance with some adapted wide angle M lenses, but that's a fairly narrow use case.)


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## David - Sydney (Oct 30, 2022)

notalchymy said:


> This and Z6 ii and R3 have Cf Express cards for the faster readout? I think its unlikely for a stacked sensor with just SD Card slots?


Just because it MIGHT be a stacked sensor, doesn't mean that CFe speeds are needed or justified. Rolling shutter would be improved but that doesn't impact the card speed.

2 scenarios for stills buffer clearance and video sustained writing:
- The current performance for clearing the buffer for R5/R6 from The Digital Picture. Noting that 20fps electronic shutter has a lower bit depth than the 12fps mechanical mode.
- The R5's SD card slot can handle the following video modes with fast USH-ii SD cards from the advanced user guide.


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## David - Sydney (Oct 30, 2022)

esglord said:


> Canon will sell as many R3’s as they can at a high price to those unwilling to wait. When they’ve met that demand, they will drop the price and hit the next group of buyers and sell more units at the lower margin, thereby maximizing their average profit margin over time and getting close to the maximum that each individual purchaser is willing to pay. Market segmentation. A discounted mk I will extract value from customers who were never willing to pay $2500 while Mk ii maintains the original profit margin for a different consumer that is willing to pay more for a bit more resolution, again maximizing profit per sale. It’s a time tested pricing model with little difference from offering matinee and senior discounts at the movie theater.


It makes sense that an introductory price will be higher than later into the product's life cycle... especially into cash cow/end-of-sale periods. It doesn't mean that prices will change quickly. The R6 hasn't changed price (in the US) since its introduction.

Pre-orders of the R5 in Australia included a custom strap, a spare battery and a small capacity SD card which offset the initial price somewhat. Other ways to discount from Canon's side is to provide post-sale rebates and from the reseller's side with temporary price drops and/or bundling more stuff with it at the MSRP/RRP

Since we are talking about sensors.... I find it fascinating that both the 6Dii and 5Div are still commanding ~50% premiums over their mirrorless versions:

5Div original price = USD3500 in 2016 (USD3600 in 2017 with Clog) vs USD2700 today on B&H
R original price = USD2300 in 2018 vs USD1600 today (USD1800 plus rebate)
=>The DLSR has 50-70% premium for arguably less features but better battery/weather sealing.

6Dii original price = USD2000 in 2017 vs USD1400 today on B&H
RP original price = USD1300 in 2019 vs USD1000 today
=> The DLSR has 40-50% premium.


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## esglord (Oct 30, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> It makes sense that an introductory price will be higher than later into the product's life cycle... especially into cash cow/end-of-sale periods. It doesn't mean that prices will change quickly. The R6 hasn't changed price (in the US) since its introduction.
> 
> Pre-orders of the R5 in Australia included a custom strap, a spare battery and a small capacity SD card which offset the initial price somewhat. Other ways to discount from Canon's side is to provide post-sale rebates and from the reseller's side with temporary price drops and/or bundling more stuff with it at the MSRP/RRP
> 
> ...


To be clear, I’m not claiming R3 is due for a price drop. Since it’s top of the line for specific users and they are constrained on the supply side, I think a price drop there is a ways off.
Regarding R6 on the other hand, there will obviously be a price drop when mk ii is announced. Also, a couple weeks ago on Canon Price Watch, the street price on the R6 was a couple hundred lower than I had ever seen it from authorized dealers, so they were likely clued into the future pricing change.

I wasn’t really talking about sensors myself, because I really don’t know anything about the cost of manufacture. Though, it would seem unlikely to me they would undercut R3 by using the same sensor in a $2500 camera. Maybe a derivation of the same design might make sense like someone else proposed.

I imagine there are way more pros out there still using mostly EF glass than have bought the full gamut of RF lenses, so DSLR cameras definitely aren’t obsolete for those folks.


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## David - Sydney (Oct 31, 2022)

esglord said:


> I imagine there are way more pros out there still using mostly EF glass than have bought the full gamut of RF lenses, so DSLR cameras definitely aren’t obsolete for those folks.


EF glass is going to be around for a long time to come and provides another tier of lens pricing when RF glass is a bit steep for what they need. People migrating to RF also provide a nice second hand EF market as well giving another price point for those to get into Canon's ecosystem and upgrade when needed. 

I won't upgrade my current EF glass until it dies and even then I'll wait for specials or until traveling overseas to claim back Australian GST for anything new. Second hand is good enough for me for less used lenses eg 8-15mm/4, 100mm macro and there is no way that Canon can beat the value proposition for the Samyang 14mm/2.8 for wide angle astro. The RF14-30mm/4 is tempting though. A TS-E wide angle would be intriguing for architecture/waterfalls etc

Yes, there are full time shooters still using 1D/5D bodies but harder to justify their pricing vs R3/R5/R6 alternatives. Muscle memory is one thing but eye-AF is another. It becomes a commercial decision when the bodies die - replacement or R mount. Some are waiting for the R1 which I can understand but the price is likely to be eye-watering!


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## esglord (Oct 31, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> EF glass is going to be around for a long time to come and provides another tier of lens pricing when RF glass is a bit steep for what they need. People migrating to RF also provide a nice second hand EF market as well giving another price point for those to get into Canon's ecosystem and upgrade when needed.
> 
> I won't upgrade my current EF glass until it dies and even then I'll wait for specials or until traveling overseas to claim back Australian GST for anything new. Second hand is good enough for me for less used lenses eg 8-15mm/4, 100mm macro and there is no way that Canon can beat the value proposition for the Samyang 14mm/2.8 for wide angle astro. The RF14-30mm/4 is tempting though. A TS-E wide angle would be intriguing for architecture/waterfalls etc
> 
> Yes, there are full time shooters still using 1D/5D bodies but harder to justify their pricing vs R3/R5/R6 alternatives. Muscle memory is one thing but eye-AF is another. It becomes a commercial decision when the bodies die - replacement or R mount. Some are waiting for the R1 which I can understand but the price is likely to be eye-watering!


I don’t disagree. I would add that if Canon keeps the 1D/5D prices higher, then they incentivize people to choose an R camera when the replace. Then, they can tempt them to buy a few rf lenses. They can’t lower the dslr prices too much or people won’t migrate to their mirrorless, and They need people to migrate, so they can stop making the dslr’s. Will take time


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## Avenger 2.0 (Oct 31, 2022)

Doug7131 said:


> Well if the R6mk2 has a 24mp sensor then Canon have 2 options:
> Create a entirely new sensor with all the associated cost such as design, testing, fabrication, firmware development and setting up a new production line. A process that would cost millions and take many months if not years.
> Or:
> Just use the existing 24mp R3 sensor which has almost no upfront costs other than to expand the capacity of an existing production line. This also cuts development time massively. Then just limit features in firmware.
> ...


Don't forget Canon made that 26mp sensor just for the 6Dii / RP back then. So why not a 24mp sensor for the R6ii and some RP successor?


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## neurorx (Oct 31, 2022)

I am interested in the 135, I'm very hopeful it focuses rapidly. I wanted to get other's opinion on focal lengths. I have the RF 85/1.2 and was wondering if a 35mm or 50 mm is better for close up face/headshots without having to be far away. I am always concerned about distortion.


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## vignes (Nov 1, 2022)

entoman said:


> I think you're underestimating the R6/R6ii by referring to them as only "enthusiast" models. They may well be in the enthusiast price band, but there are plenty of pros using the R6, either as their main body, or as a secondary body to a R5 or R3.


this is just product tiering. you can even use Rp, R for pro work and produce great results.

I think FF stacked sensor will used to differentiate between high end/flagship from enthusiast cameras. Differentiation like large and ‘build like a tank’ nowadays is moot.
Once Global shutter comes, that’ll be another way to differentiate.

Also, Mass low end cameras are going away, so manufacturers must sell these high-end cameras with clear value proposition, and you can’t do it w/o some key Differentiation.

Thanks to Sony again for creating this market i.e., FF stacked sensor, this drove Canon and Nikon to offer FF stacked sensor which created the opportunity to sell their high-end cameras. Imagine Z9 and R3 w/o stacked sensor and the asking price?


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## sanj (Nov 1, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> Yes, it is.
> I will eat my shoe if Canon comes out with the 135mm as a non-L lens at that price point.
> 
> It would be nice if they came out with a modern day version of the non-L 135mm soft focus lens. That thing was fun to play with but once soft focus control was on the camera's autofocus just wouldn't work properly. I had to shoot in focus stack mode of 10 images to pick out the sharp one each time.


If it is an L lens, I will buy!


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## TonyG (Nov 1, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yes, many people on this forum seem to think they know far more about making and selling cameras than the company that dominates the ILC market and has led it for two decades.
> 
> Somehow, they don’t realize how asinine their claims sound. It’s both amusing and sad.
> 
> I suspect in most cases it’s really just a form of wishing. When they say, “If Canon doesn’t do X or make Y, they’re d00med,” they mean they want X or Y. When they say, “This camera is overpriced, Canon should charge less,” they mean they want the camera but can’t afford it.


Well with all due respect this Forum is a Rumor Site, not Canon's upper management board room.
If we knew what their plan was and why, then there would be no need for a rumor site.
With that being said, trying to analyze and predict what their next strategic move will be, is part of the Rumor and why they might be doing it.

What is asinine is believing a company that is no 1 in the "DSLR" market cannot fall to no 2. Hence why the forum on a rumor site has people commenting on how "in their opinion" a strategy and decision could affect their favorite brand of cameras outcome.

Here is an example. I am still waiting for a 35 L to compliment my 50. I don't know why it has not been released yet. I can only speculate that the optics are not satisfactory enough in order to compete with sony's 35. I would assume the 35 canon wants to release would be slightly superior to sony's. But unless you have Fujio Mitarai tell us why, it is all up to speculation on a rumor site.
It is actually the reason why I own an A7iv and the 35 GM because I needed one and canon does not have one. Once the RF 35 comes out, I will probably be selling my GM as I prefer running my R6. Until then, Sony made the sale, not canon.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 1, 2022)

TonyG said:


> What is asinine is believing a company that is no 1 in the "DSLR" market cannot fall to no 2. Hence why the forum on a rumor site has people commenting on how "in their opinion" a strategy and decision could affect their favorite brand of cameras outcome.


I don't think anyone is saying a #1 company cannot fall to #2 any more than anyone is suggesting the sun will rise in the west. But the likelihood of it happening anytime soon is very, very small. Consider that Canon has sold around 50% of all ILCs every year for the past few years. With some reasonable assumptions about camera useful life, that means somewhere around 80% of all ILCs in use today are Canon. So while Canon could lose the #1 spot, it's not going to happen overnight and it's not going to happen because of one decision they make (unless that decision is to pull out of the ILC market, lol).

If Canon is going to drop to #2, they would have to lose market share. Canon has not lost any ILC market share in the past 5 years or so, rather they've gained. So predicting they will drop to #2 anytime soon when the trend is in the opposite direction and they have over double the market share of their nearest competitor (~50% to ~22%) is patently foolish.

As I have said before, history suggests that Canon knows how to make these sorts of decisions in ways that benefit them. OTOH, many people on this forum have a terrible track record of predicting how Canon's strategy and decisions will affect the outcome, since none of those predictions of dire effects for Canon have come to pass. In other words, "their opinions" were wrong.



TonyG said:


> Here is an example. I am still waiting for a 35 L to compliment my 50. I don't know why it has not been released yet. I can only speculate that the optics are not satisfactory enough in order to compete with sony's 35. I would assume the 35 canon wants to release would be slightly superior to sony's. But unless you have Fujio Mitarai tell us why, it is all up to speculation on a rumor site.


I would speculate that Canon knows exactly how many 35mm L primes they have sold and to whom, and has decided based on those numbers relative to other lenses to prioritize an RF 35L lower than other lenses. The EF 35L II is an excellent lens, and works perfectly on R bodies via the adapter. I have no doubt Canon could easily design and make a better 35mm lens than Sony, just as I have no doubt Sony could have designed and made an even better 35mm GM (cost is the missing part of the equation, obviously). But design and production resources are finite, so Canon has to pick the order for RF lenses to be made. They've stated ~8 lenses/year are coming for the next few years (we have had that discussion already, the one where "in your opinion" you knew how to count Canon's lenses better then they do). It seems very likely that a 35/1.4L or 35/1.2L will be among them.


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## TonyG (Nov 1, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Consider that Canon has sold around 50% of all ILCs every year for the past few years. With some reasonable assumptions about camera useful life, that means somewhere around 80% of all ILCs in use today are Canon. So while Canon could lose the #1 spot, it's not going to happen overnight and it's not going to happen because of one decision they make (unless that decision is to pull out of the ILC market, lol).


Seeing as how DSLR is old technology, and all 3 major brands no longer make DSLR's, nothing you just said makes any relevance.
Your argument is like saying Ford has owned the automobile market for the last 20 years, yet Tesla has majority in the EV market.
Naturally the mirrorless market is a different game and employing marketing mumbo jumbo to try and prove your asinine claim a company cannot fall behind if it stops being aggressive, (What happened to Nokia and Motorola being the leaders in the cellular phone market?)



> As I have said before, history suggests that Canon knows how to make these sorts of decisions in ways that benefit them. OTOH, many people on this forum have a terrible track record of predicting how Canon's strategy and decisions will affect the outcome, since none of those predictions of dire effects for Canon have come to pass. In other words, "their opinions" were wrong.


Obviously, we would hope Canon makes great business decisions otherwise why would we invest in their brand and use their gear.
Most people on this forum are trying to assess what and why these decisions are being made and what the outcomes might be. Otherwise, there is no purpose for a Rumor Forum....
Are you trying to say you know exactly what Canon's strategy is? and why they are making certain decisions?
If so, why you are stooping beneath your illustriousness to comment on speculations on a Rumor Forum Site?



> I would speculate that Canon knows exactly how many 35mm L primes they have sold and to whom, and has decided based on those numbers relative to other lenses to prioritize an RF 35L lower than other lenses. The EF 35L II is an excellent lens, and works perfectly on R bodies via the adapter. I have no doubt Canon could easily design and make a better 35mm lens than Sony, just as I have no doubt Sony could have designed and made an even better 35mm GM (cost is the missing part of the equation, obviously). But design and production resources are finite, so Canon has to pick the order for RF lenses to be made. It seems very likely that a 35/1.4L or 35/1.2L will be among them.


I know the EF lens is a great lens, so are tubed tired, but why would I want to use an outdated tubed tire when I can use tubeless?
Better yet, here is a better analogy, why would I use a ssd drive in my computer when I can use a nvme. Especially if I have a computer with the latest PCI spec that can utilize the speed of a nvme drive. Just because I can does not mean I should. Especially if I am interested in obtaining the best of the best gear.
I hope an RF 35L is the next lens to be released.



> They've stated ~8 lenses/year are coming for the next few years (we have had that discussion already, the one where "in your opinion" you knew how to count Canon's lenses better then they do).


Whether you count by announce date (which I stated in my other post) or release date, they have only *Released* 6 so far this year, not 8. Maybe you need the sesame street count to help you count to 6, ah ah ah.
Since they are counting them by *Release/Available* date, they have 2 months left to have the 135 on the shelfs in order to make it Seven! ah ah ah.
Maybe we will get a surprise with 2 lens announcements available for sale on the shelfs to make it Eight! ah ah ah....

It's sad to see a smart guy like you believing marketing hype as fact just because they said so.


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## koenkooi (Nov 1, 2022)

TonyG said:


> [..]Better yet, here is a better analogy, why would I use a ssd drive in my computer when I can use a nvme.[..]


You do realize that NVME is a protocol and that most drives using that protocol are solid state drives, colloquially known as 'SSDs'? What you're saying above is 'Why should I use MILC camera when I can use an RF?'

Also, you can get spinning rust drives with an NVME interface.


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## TonyG (Nov 1, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> You do realize that NVME is a protocol and that most drives using that protocol are solid state drives, colloquially known as 'SSDs'? What you're saying above is 'Why should I use MILC camera when I can use an RF?'
> 
> Also, you can get spinning rust drives with an NVME interface.


Yes, I meant the difference between a basic 2.5" ssd with a sata connector and an nvme drive with a m2 slot. I figured it would be self-explanatory without going into the technical deep dive.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 1, 2022)

TonyG said:


> Seeing as how DSLR is old technology, and all 3 major brands no longer make DSLR's, nothing you just said makes any relevance.
> Your argument is like saying Ford has owned the automobile market for the last 20 years, yet Tesla has majority in the EV market.
> Naturally the mirrorless market is a different game and employing marketing mumbo jumbo to try and prove your asinine claim a company cannot fall behind if it stops being aggressive, (What happened to Nokia and Motorola being the leaders in the cellular phone market?)


This is rather like having a discussion with a bowling ball. You are the one who used the term "DSLR", and put it in quotes, even. The term I used was "ILC". The abbreviation ILC stands for interchangeable lens camera, a category that comprises DSLRs _and_ MILCs (that last one means mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras, evidently I need to explain since it seems you don't understand these basic terms of the market we are discussing). Canon is #1 in the ILC market with ~50% share, Sony is #2 with ~22% share. Canon's share of the DSLR market is even higher, ~60%. Regarding trends, from 2020 to 2021 both Canon and Sony gained market share (at Nikon's expense), but Canon actually gained more than Sony. 

Incidentally, what gives you the idea that, "all 3 major brands no longer make DSLR's?" The three major brands are Canon, Sony and Nikon and both Canon and Nikon are still producing DSLRs (as is Ricoh/Pentax although they are not 'major'). In the month of September 2022, ~30% of ILCs produced were DSLRs. The fraction has been about the same for the first three quarters of 2022. Check CIPA for the data, which is something you should have done before making such an asinine and easily refuted claim.



TonyG said:


> Are you trying to say you know exactly what Canon's strategy is? and why they are making certain decisions?
> If so, why you are stooping beneath your illustriousness to comment on speculations on a Rumor Forum Site?


By all means, put more words in my mouth. Lol. Of course I'm not saying I'm privy to Canon's internal discussions of strategy. But we can all see the outcome of their implementation of their strategy – increasing the degree to which they've led the ILC market for two decades to the point where they are the dominant manufacturer. Why would you assume that will change dramatically? Oh wait, I know...NOKIA!! KODAK!! Sure, sure. Ignore the hundreds of companies that have been and remain successful and focus on a small number of exceptions. That's sound reasoning, that is. 



TonyG said:


> Whether you count by announce date (which I stated in my other post) or release date, they have only *Released* 6 so far this year, not 8. Maybe you need the sesame street count to help you count to 6, ah ah ah.
> Since they are counting them by *Release/Available* date, they have 2 months left to have the 135 on the shelfs in order to make it Seven! ah ah ah.
> Maybe we will get a surprise with 2 lens announcements available for sale on the shelfs to make it Eight! ah ah ah....
> It's sad to see a smart guy like you believing marketing hype as fact just because they said so.


I suppose I shouldn't have brought it up, seems you're still upset over being wrong. I have no idea if Canon will stick to their claim or not, and that wasn't my point. The point was that you claimed Canon's count of lenses released in 2020 and 2021 was wrong, which was a patently asinine claim (you seem to make a lot of those). It's sad to see a smart guy like you say such foolish things.


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## mxwphoto (Nov 1, 2022)

TonyG said:


> I know the EF lens is a great lens, so are tubed tired, but why would I want to use an outdated tubed tire when I can use tubeless?
> Better yet, here is a better analogy, why would I use a ssd drive in my computer when I can use a nvme. Especially if I have a computer with the latest PCI spec that can utilize the speed of a nvme drive. Just because I can does not mean I should. Especially if I am interested in obtaining the best of the best gear.
> I hope an RF 35L is the next lens to be released.


Being the owner of the EF 35L II, I have to say the drive analogy would be more akin to having a M.2 riser card via pciexpress and attaching a NVME drive to it vs a motherboard with a dedicated NVME drive slot.

The 35L II has phenomenal sharpness wide open and utilizes BR, one of the only 2 lenses that have it thus far. Speed is very fast as it can do the full 12fps mechanical on a R6. The only thing it needs is the EF to RF adapter (riser card equivalent). It even maintains weather sealing with adapter.

I believe it would be hard for Canon to make a RF 35L that would have much distinction from the EF version. The only way they could differentiate is if they went f/1.2.

There's more urgent dated line-ups to fill thus probably why we haven't seen a native RF 35L version yet.


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## mxwphoto (Nov 1, 2022)

sanj said:


> If it is an L lens, I will buy!


Pics just came out, guess you are buying it.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 1, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> There's more urgent dated line-ups to fill thus probably why we haven't seen a native RF 35L version yet.


Canon chose to update a lens released in 1996 ahead of a lens released in 2015. I'm shocked, I tell you. Simply shocked.


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## ashmadux (Nov 1, 2022)

Franklyok said:


> Is it from old 6D2 or Rp?


if it from 6d2...god help them - the camera will get buried on photo sites. That sensor sucks, with the DR equivalent of newspaper. Its rare that photo reviewers say 'you have no flexiblity' with a sensor...especially a full frame one.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 1, 2022)

ashmadux said:


> if it from 6d2...god help them - the camera will get buried on photo sites. That sensor sucks, with the DR equivalent of newspaper. Its rare that photo reviewers say 'you have no flexiblity' with a sensor...especially a full frame one.


Yes, well clearly Canon didn’t need help from anyone to sell plenty of the 6DII. Sensor measurebation doesn’t mean all that much to people outside of forums. We don’t represent the market.


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## davidcl0nel (Nov 2, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> $2100 is a tempting price, but I sold my EF 135L long ago when I realized the 70-200/2.8 II was much more useful to me. I have the RF 70-200/2.8 so I don’t plan to pick up the RF 135L.


The EF135 was always good for lightweight. 750g instead of 1500+ as the EF 70-200 2.8. If you only pickup body and one lense, the 135 was a good choice.

Now this is no more a reason. RF135 is at 935g with 82mm filter


https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1733226-REG/canon_rf_135mm_f_1_8_l.html/specs


There the RF 70-200 2.8 is only a slightly bit heavier, and its not bigger (as the EF with internal zoom).

But the price is ok, I expected more from Canon as the other L prime lenses are more with 3000€...


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## Michael Clark (Nov 15, 2022)

Jayk0607 said:


> EF 135/2 been in my radar for many years but never really had a chance to get it. I have RF 70-200/2.8 and Samyang 85/1.4. I shoot mostly portrait of my daughter/newphew and niece. Do you think EF 135/2 is worth it on top of those 2 lenses?



I have both the EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II and the EF 135mm f/2 L. The 70-200/2.8 is a workhorse and I use it quit often. 

If I know I can get away with only 135mm and will not be standing on a moving or vibrating platform, I'm grabbing the 135/2 every time. Even when stopped down to f/2.8, the out of focus areas are so much smoother with the prime that it's not hard at all to tell which lens was used. It's the closest thing to a magic lens as I've ever used.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 15, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> I think you will find the difference between 135 and the 70-200 at the same focal length to be minimal. 70-200 is more flexible so you can zoom in or out better on the kids.
> 
> The only reason I have 135 is because i got it for $460usd and I personally prefer using lighter primes than zooms (the EF 70-200 is 2x the weight). The RF 70-200 is only 25% heavier (with adapter taken into account) so it is a lot better in that sense.
> 
> I rotate between 35, 50, 85, and 135 L primes, use just one lens per outing with kids and try to get good compositions given the fov limitations. Keeps gear light, mind sharp, and body active with the foot zooms.



Do you regularly shoot with both the EF 135/2 and the EF 70-200/2.8 II, III or RF 70-200/2.8?


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## Michael Clark (Nov 15, 2022)

jam05 said:


> The Canon EOS R5 was released nearly $1000 below the 1DX series flagship with nearly a decade of technology advancements



1D X Mark II was introduced in 2016.

R5 was introduced in 2020.

Four years does not a decade make.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 15, 2022)

Aussie shooter said:


> I don't get why so many people are convinced it can't be the stacked sensor from the R3. Surely once the development of the sensor is done it is cheaper for canon to use it as many times as possible as opposed to developing a new sensor that isn't stacked just for a cheaper camera.



I don't get why all cars do not have Ferrari V12 engines in them, since Ferrari has already spent the development costs and it would be cheaper for all car companies to just use it instead of spending more money developing new inline 4-cylinder engines with massively fewer parts, massively fewer assembly steps, and significantly lower tolerances.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 15, 2022)

Chig said:


> The R6 has an identical sensor to Canon's flagship 1DXiii so using the R3 sensor for the R6ii isn't out of the question and would make the R6ii much more competitive . Once the sensor is developed then the production costs may well be not much higher than FSI non stacked.
> Perhaps Canon plan to use BSI stacked sensors on all their mid to high end bodies from now on ?



Or maybe the difference in production costs is actually significant enough that its more than the R&D savings from not having to develop a new FSI or BSI (but not stacked) sensor would be over the number of units they expect to sell?


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## Michael Clark (Nov 15, 2022)

Unchecked said:


> Why? Because they can sell plenty more $4.5k cameras than they do $6k. People around the interwebs (unrealistically) wishing the R6ii have a stacked sensor shows there's a market appetite for a cheaper stacked sensor camera that's not at $6k. Canon can meet them halfway at the $4.5k price point.



As long as every one they make sells as soon as it is listed somewhere, they can't sell any more than they are selling now at $6K if they lowered the price to $1.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 15, 2022)

TukTuk said:


> there are tests @ optical limits site - EF 85mm f/1.2 USM L II is not that great @ borders wide open or close to wide open on 21mp sensor ( see how border fare vs center) while RF one does well @ 30mp (the same see how borders fare vs center)



Who buys an 85mm f/1.2 to take photos of flat test charts? Or to do document reproduction? That's what you need flat field performance to do.

Giving a lens such flat field performance tends to make the bokeh less attractive. Bokeh is what most folks by an 85/1.2 to get. But they're too lazy to learn the design used to get that "edge to edge sharpness" negatively impacts out of focus areas when imaging a three-dimensional world.


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## SwissFrank (Nov 16, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> The 35L II has phenomenal sharpness wide open and utilizes BR, one of the only 2 lenses that have it thus far.


Three.


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## Michael Clark (Nov 17, 2022)

danfaz said:


> Agreed the EF is still a worthy lens, but the lack of weather resistance and IS are significant weaknesses. I imagine the optics will be improved after 26 years, too, so I will be sorely tempted to pick one up.



The EF 135mm f/2 L doesn't totally lack weather resistance, it just has a little less of it than other lenses than have a little more. It's not built like an open truss Newtonian telescope or something. The lens elements, aperture diaphragm, AF motor, etc. are all inside the lens barrel. Neither the front nor rear elements move at all when the focus position is changed. So what if it doesn't have a little rubber ring on the outside of the flange? Most of the rubber rings on my L lenses that do have one have been pretty much flattened over the years. 

It's not like "weather sealed" lenses (which Canon doesn't usually claim for lenses, they usually only say things like "more weather sealing" or "improved weather sealing" in product descriptions) can be fully immersed in water and less weather resistant lenses will explode if exposed to direct sunlight, one drop of water, or one speck of dust.

IS would be nice, but the things I use the 135/2 for require a Tv shorter than 1/125 or 1/150 most of the time, anyway. YMMV.


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## mxwphoto (Nov 18, 2022)

SwissFrank said:


> Three.


I only know of the 35 and 85 lenses. The 85 DS does not count as a different lens in my book.


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## mxwphoto (Nov 18, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Do you regularly shoot with both the EF 135/2 and the EF 70-200/2.8 II, III or RF 70-200/2.8?


I use the EF 135 regularly. For times when I need zoom now I use the RF 100-400. I used the 70-200 ii but the bulk and weight was getting to me as I do get sporadically active while shooting (ie running and jumping to keep up with kids). Much easier holding onto a small prime or zoom than trying to protect big white.


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## SwissFrank (Nov 19, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> The 85 DS does not count as a different lens in my book.


It's different enough that people pay hugely more for it, and theoretically a professional might even own both. They wouldn't do so if it were "the same." It's been listed as a different lens on every Canon lens list I've ever seen, as well. You're welcome to count all RF lenses made as "the same lens" if you want but it doesn't really affect how the rest of the planet counts them.


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## Aussie shooter (Nov 27, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> I don't get why all cars do not have Ferrari V12 engines in them, since Ferrari has already spent the development costs and it would be cheaper for all car companies to just use it instead of spending more money developing new inline 4-cylinder engines with massively fewer parts, massively fewer assembly steps, and significantly lower tolerances.


While your point is extreme, what you are suggesting does in fact happen. New and expensive tech eventually trickles down into consumer products. In cars and in cameras because of the economics of scale. So my point stands. While in this case the sensor obviously did not get used, eventually ALL cameras with ES will have stacked sensors. It is just a matter of time


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## danfaz (Nov 27, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> The EF 135mm f/2 L doesn't totally lack weather resistance, it just has a little less of it than other lenses than have a little more. It's not built like an open truss Newtonian telescope or something. The lens elements, aperture diaphragm, AF motor, etc. are all inside the lens barrel. Neither the front nor rear elements move at all when the focus position is changed. So what if it doesn't have a little rubber ring on the outside of the flange?


Well, it was not promoted as having any, and was promoted as an "indoor sports" lens.
I'm sure you know the weather sealing is not just a rubber ring at the mount. Take the RF 85mm 1.2 for example. The lens elements, aperture diaphragm, AF motor, etc. are all inside the lens barrel, as well. Even with all that, Canon added the rubber ring and seals in many other places to make it weather-resistant (see attached pic). Hopefully the RF 135 will get this same treatment.
The question is, would you feel confident taking your lens out in the rain/snow/dust knowing your lens had no advertised weather sealing?
I was too chicken to use my EF 135 during inclement weather, but will not be so much with the RF version.


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## Michael Clark (Dec 16, 2022)

danfaz said:


> Well, it was not promoted as having any, and was promoted as an "indoor sports" lens.
> I'm sure you know the weather sealing is not just a rubber ring at the mount. Take the RF 85mm 1.2 for example. The lens elements, aperture diaphragm, AF motor, etc. are all inside the lens barrel, as well. Even with all that, Canon added the rubber ring and seals in many other places to make it weather-resistant (see attached pic). Hopefully the RF 135 will get this same treatment.
> The question is, would you feel confident taking your lens out in the rain/snow/dust knowing your lens had no advertised weather sealing?
> I was too chicken to use my EF 135 during inclement weather, but will not be so much with the RF version.
> ...



Are you saying the EF 135mm f/2 L has no seals anywhere? If it was introduced as a new lens today instead of in the 1990s, when most all of us had sense enough to put covers over our cameras and lenses when shooting in the rain, I'm sure Canon would print up a nice diagram showing where they are in that lens as well. They might not be as robust or extensive as the seals on newer lenses such as the RF 85mm f/1.2 L, but there are seals in many of the cracks between pieces of the barrel of the older 135/2.

On the other hand, every time I've gotten my EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II, which is supposed to be a "weather sealed" lens, back from CPS I've had to reapply my own tape over the access holes in the metal zoom and focus rings located beneath the rubber covers.

In the words of Roger Cicala from a lensrentals blog titled:
Assumptions, Expectations, and Plastic Mounts​
"As long as we’re on the subject of catchwords, it’s probably worth tackling ‘Weather Sealed’ or ‘Weather Resistant’ next. Many people seem to believe that means ‘waterproof’. When you take lenses apart all day you find out it usually means ‘we put a strip of foam rubber behind the front and rear elements and scotch tape over the access holes under the rubber rings’."

"It’s better than no weather sealing, certainly. And some (but not all) ‘weather sealed’ lenses also have internal gaskets around barrel joints and other added bits seals. But I haven’t seen one manufacturer yet tell us exactly what weather their lens is sealed against. Snow? Rain? Sunshine? Wind? Well, it can’t be wind because the lenses we spend the most time taking dust out of are mostly ‘weather sealed’."

"It’s very different with different manufacturers. You can assume whatever you like, but when you send your lens in for repair, ‘weather sealed’ still means ‘the warranty doesn’t cover water damage’."

"The truth is, terms like Professional Grade and Weather Resistant are nearly as vague as ‘innovative technology’ and ‘stylish design’."


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## Michael Clark (Dec 16, 2022)

danfaz said:


> Well, it was not promoted as having any, and was promoted as an "indoor sports" lens.



"Indoor sports lens" is more about focal length than anything else. The other telephoto lens often recommended for indoor sports was the EF 85mm f/1.8. No one shoots from court side or mat side with a 300mm prime or even 200mm prime. 70-200mm zooms get used much closer to 70mm and in the middle of the zoom range than at 200mm when shooting indoor sports from designated media positions.

On the other hand, "field sports" lenses are in the 200mm and up focal length range.


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