# Canon EOS R vs 5D Mark IV - Pros & Cons



## vjlex (Sep 5, 2018)

A bit early, but let's get it started! How does the Canon EOS R compare to the 5D Mark IV?

I admit, this is for completely self-serving reasons, but I'm sure the feedback can be useful to others stuck between choosing one or the other. 

*EOS 5D4 Pro/Cons vs R*
+CIPA-rated at _900 shots_ per charge (OVF doesn't burn battery like an EVF)
+Native mounting of EF lenses (no need to buy an adapter)
+Faster burst (with proper AF working)
+Larger buffer
+dual card slots
+built-in GPS
+Proper control wheel and buttons around the thumb grip
+same LP-E6(N) batteries as 5D II, III, 6D, 7D, R series cameras (among others)
-heavier
-static LCD
- cannot mount new RF lenses
-no native C-Log on early models

*EOS R Pro/Cons vs 5D4*
+lighter
+newer technology (native RF mount, Eye-AF)
+cheaper
+vari-angle flipscreen
+same LP-E6(N) batteries as 5D II, III, IV, 6D, 7D series cameras (among others)
+improved low-light capabiliy (ISO 100-40000 with expansion up to 102400)
+faster SD slot (UHS-II)
+USB 3.1 plus ability to charge battery in-camera (LP-E6N only)
+faster autofocus
+autofocus at f11
-CIPA-rated at 350 shots per charge (EVF) / 370 shots (LCD), Power saving mode 430 and 450 shots respectively, Eco mode 540 and 560 shots

I'll be happy to update this first post as necessary with feedback provided from the comments.

**Thanks to @ahsanford for helping me get the list started.


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## Mikehit (Sep 5, 2018)

Don't forget eye AF on the EOS-R


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## tron (Sep 5, 2018)

You should remove the same LP-E6(N) batteries from the EOS R vs 5D4.
Both cameras use the same battery so the use of the specific battery is not an advantage against 5D4.


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## Mikehit (Sep 5, 2018)

You can charge the EOS-R with USB (I presume that means you can used a powerbank if necessary)


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## vjlex (Sep 5, 2018)

tron said:


> You should remove the same LP-E6(N) batteries from the EOS R vs 5D4.
> Both cameras use the same battery so the use of the specific battery is not an advantage against 5D4.



I put it as an advantage for the R since it means you can use all the same batteries you probably already own if you have a 5, 6, or 7 series camera, but true. Thanks for the input.


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## Mikehit (Sep 5, 2018)

EOS-R can autofocus at f11 - 06:25 in the video below


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## vjlex (Sep 5, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> You can charge the EOS-R with USB (I presume that means you can used a powerbank if necessary)



Yup, it's on the list next to USB 3.1


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## Mikehit (Sep 5, 2018)

shunsai said:


> Yup, it's on the list next to USB 3.1


whoops!


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## vjlex (Sep 5, 2018)

Has there been any word on weather sealing on the R? That bare metal-to-metal mount connection doesn't look too weather-resistant.

Also, is it new that you can record 4K to an external recorder with an HDMI cable? I don't use video much, so I don't know if the 5D4 did this already or not.


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## Random Orbits (Sep 5, 2018)

I would have preferred a larger battery. That is something Sony got right, and Nikon and Canon failed to do. This is positioned alongside the 6DII. I'll wait for their 5D4-like offering. And hopefully, by then, the prices for all the new R lenses will have dropped. Early adopters pay the most...


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## eninja (Sep 5, 2018)

Weight and dimensions? Also, How does the lighter body of R feels on 300g, 1000g, and 1400g lens feel?


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## glider4 (Sep 5, 2018)

If I can get a 5DIV body for $2350 on eBay from a reputable gray market dealer which is just $51 more than the R at launch pricing, I’m going for the 5DIV! I understand they are very different tools for different purposes but the 5DIV gives you a lot more for the same $$. 
Actually, I’m sticking with my 6DII and 80D combo for now!


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## Bennymiata (Sep 6, 2018)

I may be wrong, but you will need a PD charger to charge via USB.
A normal battery box may work, but it will be VERY slow.
You can buy PD battery boxes and these will also work on your laptop even a Macbook.
As PD chargers can charge up to 20 volts, they are much faster than normal USB chargers.


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## Wdy111 (Sep 6, 2018)

Pro on R: Fokus peaking for stills and vids


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## padam (Sep 6, 2018)

EOS R video pros:
Costs less
From factor, lighter (more gimbal-friendly)
4:2:0 8-bit smaller file size options
Good EVF
Focus peaking
Swivel LCD
ND filter adapters (very expensive, but probably works flawlessly, so it's huge)
More advanced AF and a bit better ISO with Digic 8
EF-S lens compatibility
UHS-II SD
C-Log included(!)
10-bit 4:2:2 external output

A few annoying "features", such as no internal Cinema 4k at 4:2:2 8-bit, so a slightly bigger 1.8x UHD crop and no meaningful improvement in rolling shutter is a disappointment.

For stills as well, the 5D IV has its place, because
Dual cards slots
Joystick (not on the R, what the)
Battery life (if you use liveview though, it is not that impressive)
Better ruggedness (drop-in filters, changing lens can attract dust even with the shutter auto-closing)
More advanced DSLR AF system (configurable, faster fps in AF mode, can snap from far to close faster)


A C100 Mark II vs EOS R is also an interesting comparison.
While they are different, there are still quite a few 5D IV niggles which have been fixed, it is still not a video camera but as expected, it is ahead in technology.


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## Kit. (Sep 6, 2018)

If you don't mind a slight increase in weight and cost and a substantial increase in size, you can get an external 7" monitor for 5D4 with swivel and focus peaking - with HDMI pass-through.


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## tron (Sep 6, 2018)

Bennymiata said:


> I may be wrong, but you will need a PD charger to charge via USB.
> A normal battery box may work, but it will be VERY slow.
> You can buy PD battery boxes and these will also work on your laptop even a Macbook.
> As PD chargers can charge up to 20 volts, they are much faster than normal USB chargers.


It's simpler to have a small power bank and a usb LP-E6(N) charger to charge a spare LP-E6(N) battery!
At least this is what I do with no issues.


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## bbb34 (Sep 6, 2018)

For me, the most important difference is with the style and usability of the viewfinder. In the past, OVF was way better. In the future, the added value of the EVF will dominate. Looks like Canon worked a lot on the view finder of the R. There are a lot of details that are not in the data sheets, and people don't discuss them (yet). I don't think *E*VF is good enough for everybody, yet, but it is certainly attractive for many.

I would buy the R right away if I needed a new body now. "Sadly", my 5D3 still delivers great images.


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## tron (Sep 6, 2018)

bbb34 said:


> For me, the most important difference is with the style and usability of the viewfinder. In the past, OVF was way better. In the future, the added value of the EVF will dominate. Looks like Canon worked a lot on the view finder of the R. There are a lot of details that are not in the data sheets, and people don't discuss them (yet). I don't think OVF is good enough for everybody, yet, but it is certainly attractive for many.
> 
> I would buy the R right away if I needed a new body now. "Sadly", my 5D3 still delivers great images.


So my 5D4 and 5DsR. Plus they have a native EF-mount


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## padam (Sep 6, 2018)

Kit. said:


> If you don't mind a slight increase in weight and cost and a substantial increase in size, you can get an external 7" monitor for 5D4 with swivel and focus peaking - with HDMI pass-through.


Wifi also works for some things.

But, if you think about it, it is kind of crazy that you have to do that (for the peaking, the fixed screen I understand a little), and you also don't have the option of 4k external recording.


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## Kit. (Sep 6, 2018)

padam said:


> But, if you think about it, it is kind of crazy that you have to do that (for the peaking, the fixed screen I understand a little),


A 7" fullHD display is nice by itself.



padam said:


> and you also don't have the option of 4k external recording.


Why? What prevents using a passthrough display or a display with a built-in recorder?


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## zim (Sep 6, 2018)

Two thing which I've been concerned as being R negatives look like they have turned out to be positives

1. Prone to very bad sensor dust
2. EVF experience compared to OVF

Going by some very early comments sounds like Canon nailed these. Protecting the sensor with the shutter is a great move imo. The EVF sounds sweet.


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## padam (Sep 6, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Why? What prevents using a passthrough display or a display with a built-in recorder?


The 5D IV (just like any other Canon DSLR, including the 1DC) is only capable of 8-bit 4:2:2 1080p HDMI output. No 4k


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## AlanF (Sep 6, 2018)

shunsai said:


> *EOS R Pro/Cons vs 5D4*
> 
> +faster autofocus


Are you sure it is faster? Canon has a footnote as a caveat for_ fastest_: "_Among interchangeable lens digital mirrorless cameras incorporating 35mm full frame equivalent image sensors with phase-difference detection AF on the image plane and contrast detection AF, available in the market as of September 5th, 2018 (Based on Canon's Research)._", which excludes the 5DIV. In fact, the EOS R is rated by Canon at 5 fps for focussing for APS-C vs 7 fps for the 5DIV. The EOS R can do 10 fps only if it doesn't AF after the first frame.


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## padam (Sep 6, 2018)

Generally speaking, one is not clearly better than the other, one has a zillion AF points and (hopefully) intelligent tracking through the frame (and for video), and the other is just quicker to snap into initial focus from far away and also better at quick tracking (as long as it has been told with good settings on what to expect), but they are both useful for different situations.
That might change later of course, but that's where it is now.
And of course in theory, you may need to micro-adjust mirror-based AF, but not DPAF because it is already judged by the sensor's pixels themselves and also the camera's algorithm, that figures out what should be in focus.


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## bhf3737 (Sep 11, 2018)

Some additional pros for R:
- Does not need lens calibration (general advantage of mirrorless)
- Has precise focus guide in manual focus (eliminates the need of external monitor for video)
- Can mount both EF and EF-S lenses via adapter
- Supports a 3rd customizable ring on lenses


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 11, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> You can charge the EOS-R with USB (I presume that means you can used a powerbank if necessary)


Canon says only their charger will work, perhaps it has some sort of communication, and perhaps a higher voltage than 5 volts.


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## JonSnow (Sep 11, 2018)

https://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM

check the EOS R against the 5D MK4 and the Sony a7R III.

the sony is of course more expensive than the canon but shows noticable better image quality.

i update my 5D Mk4 when canon offers me better image quality.
i hope that the higher end mirrorless model will see an increase in resolution and overall better image quality.


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## tron (Sep 11, 2018)

To not like 5D4 is strange unless you mean that you need more resolution. In that case 5DsR may be for you. I used the comparisons in the site you suggested and the two cameras seemed the same (I checked ISO 100).


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## Act444 (Sep 12, 2018)

Comparing the R with the 5D4 in that image comparison, the R image is noticeably crisper. Did IR use the same lens on both cameras?


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## vjlex (Sep 12, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> Some additional pros for R:
> - Does not need lens calibration (general advantage of mirrorless)
> - Has precise focus guide in manual focus (eliminates the need of external monitor for video)
> - Can mount both EF and EF-S lenses via adapter
> - Supports a 3rd customizable ring on lenses


By lens calibration, do you mean AFMA? I've heard people say there is no need for AFMA in mirrorless. Can someone explain that?


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## bhf3737 (Sep 12, 2018)

shunsai said:


> By lens calibration, do you mean AFMA? I've heard people say there is no need for AFMA in mirrorless. Can someone explain that?


In a nutshell, DSLRs have a separate AF sensor different from the image sensor and any difference in the optical path between the two sensors must be compensated somehow, usually through the AFMA process. In mirrorless, the phase or contrast detect methods use the image on the sensor itself to achieve AF, albeit known to be a tad slower. 
Dustin Abbott has a two parts video explaining the AFMA process and tools and a few thread in CR such as this are dedicated to the AFMA dicussion.


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## tron (Sep 12, 2018)

I wonder how much a new 500 f/4 will weigh.....


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 12, 2018)

tron said:


> I wonder how much a new 500 f/4 will weigh.....



... a way too much in only a few years if advances in technology continue as they have. Here's my question for myself. If I don't presently get out to shoot how is a lighter lens going to help?

Jack


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## pcaouolte (Sep 12, 2018)

I understand that the EOS-R will be supplied with a USB charger. This means buying another charger if you want to have one battery on charge whilst using another battery in the camera.


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## tron (Sep 12, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> ... a way too much in only a few years if advances in technology continue as they have. Here's my question for myself. If I don't presently get out to shoot how is a lighter lens going to help?
> 
> Jack


Wouldn't you like a 500 that weighs almost as your current 400 DO ? 

OK I am exaggerating a little, it will weigh more but you get my point. We only get older with time and the less weight the better.
But I have followed you in the birds thread and you are doing just fine  Nice pictures, nice place(s), nice attitude.


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## Lurker (Sep 12, 2018)

5D IV +Available now, known/understood system and full functionality is not pending firmware updates. 

Just got my 5D IV last week and so far I'm very excited and pleased. Lots to learn stepping up from a 50D.


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## tron (Sep 12, 2018)

Lurker said:


> 5D IV +Available now, known/understood system and full functionality is not pending firmware updates.
> 
> Just got my 5D IV last week and so far I'm very excited and pleased. Lots to learn stepping up from a 50D.


You will not regret it! It is a very nice camera for general purpose, portraits, night/low light shots, landscape, etc.


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## Act444 (Sep 13, 2018)

tron said:


> You will not regret it! It is a very nice camera for general purpose, portraits, night/low light shots, landscape, etc.



I'll add that it can also be competent for action shooting particularly if you're not a paid pro who must get "that shot"...the AF tracking is good enough...gotten great results at ice shows with it, especially since many have virtually nonexistent lighting. I prefer it to the 7D2 I was using before basically due to its superior high ISO performance. Also, the additional resolution over a 1DX/II leaves room for extra cropping as well.


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## Act444 (Sep 13, 2018)

Act444 said:


> Comparing the R with the 5D4 in that image comparison, the R image is noticeably crisper. Did IR use the same lens on both cameras?



Answering my own question, I saw the "EXIF" button and indeed, although both were taken at 50mm, in the case of the R the much sharper RF 50 1.2 was used, whereas the 50mm compact macro was used in the 5D4 shot (and the other Canons that I know of)...misleading! Not an equivalent comparison as it is set up at the moment.


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 13, 2018)

tron said:


> Wouldn't you like a 500 that weighs almost as your current 400 DO ?
> 
> OK I am exaggerating a little, it will weigh more but you get my point. We only get older with time and the less weight the better.
> But I have followed you in the birds thread and you are doing just fine  Nice pictures, nice place(s), nice attitude.



I'd love all/any of it if my wallet were fatter! However, lenses are better investments than camera's so who knows.

Question. Has anyone worked out a deal with a retailer that seemed worthy, where they've traded a lens like the 300 2.8 II towards a body or another lens?
My 300 has been unused for nearly two years now.

Jack


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## yungfat (Sep 15, 2018)

shunsai said:


> A bit early, but let's get it started! How does the Canon EOS R compare to the 5D Mark IV?
> 
> I admit, this is for completely self-serving reasons, but I'm sure the feedback can be useful to others stuck between choosing one or the other.
> 
> ...



Canon is *******!



shunsai said:


> A bit early, but let's get it started! How does the Canon EOS R compare to the 5D Mark IV?
> 
> I admit, this is for completely self-serving reasons, but I'm sure the feedback can be useful to others stuck between choosing one or the other.
> 
> ...



Canon is *******!

Their mirrorless only come with ONE CARD SLOT!

None of the human on the planet will buy EOS R!


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## Ozarker (Sep 15, 2018)

Lurker said:


> 5D IV +Available now, known/understood system and full functionality is not pending firmware updates.
> 
> Just got my 5D IV last week and so far I'm very excited and pleased. Lots to learn stepping up from a 50D.


You are going to be a very happy guy!


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## Talys (Sep 15, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> The dodo birds who post on Canon are ******* - no one with any common sense takes any of their comments seriously, they just clog up CR and display their ignorance for all to see. What we need is disclosure so there could be real public shaming! At least inject some humour if you must post nonsense.
> 
> Jack



lol... sadly, sometimes when I see ridiculous posts, I have to look at the name of the person who posted... to tell if it's sarcasm or serious, lol. Like, sometimes, "CANON IS *******!" is an eyeroll, while other times, the sentiment that "no human on the planet" would buy a one-card camera is serious, because, well, the person lives in a chemically induced hallucination or something.

It's like, all the Canon is ******* because the M50 can't do 4k DPAF people.... that was truly surreal to me.

Sometimes, I think there are folks who won't be happy until Canon launches an A7R3 with DPAF and prices it at 50% less than any competitors' product. And I'm not even being totally facetious. There are forum trolls who aren't going to be happy until a camera manufacturer comes out with something clearly superior to everything else in every way and is also much cheaper.


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## dak723 (Sep 15, 2018)

yungfat said:


> Canon is *******!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, Intelligent photographers will buy this and other Canon cameras.
Techno-geeks who only care about bragging to their buddies will continue to buy and troll for Sony.


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## brad-man (Sep 15, 2018)

Talys said:


> lol... sadly, sometimes when I see ridiculous posts, I have to look at the name of the person who posted... to tell if it's sarcasm or serious, lol. Like, sometimes, "CANON IS *******!" is an eyeroll, while other times, the sentiment that "no human on the planet" would buy a one-card camera is serious, because, well, the person lives in a chemically induced hallucination or something.
> 
> It's like, all the Canon is ******* because the M50 can't do 4k DPAF people.... that was truly surreal to me.
> 
> Sometimes, I think there are folks who won't be happy until Canon launches an A7R3 with DPAF and prices it at 50% less than any competitors' product. And I'm not even being totally facetious. There are forum trolls who aren't going to be happy until a camera manufacturer comes out with something clearly superior to everything else in every way and is also much cheaper.


I don't normally pre-order gear, but I'll make an exception in this case. Can you shoot me a link to that camera?


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## AlanF (Sep 15, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> I'd love all/any of it if my wallet were fatter! However, lenses are better investments than camera's so who knows.
> 
> Question. Has anyone worked out a deal with a retailer that seemed worthy, where they've traded a lens like the 300 2.8 II towards a body or another lens?
> My 300 has been unused for nearly two years now.
> ...


I hope my 300 is being well used - I sold it a year ago after I hadn't used it for a year. It's too easy to hang on to these fine lenses. Unlike the past, when they retained their value and even went up because of inflation, Canon periodically discounts them and even lowers their price. The 300/2.8 II and 400/4 DO II have now cheaper list prices than when I bought them and cashbacks are being offered.


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 16, 2018)

AlanF said:


> I hope my 300 is being well used - I sold it a year ago after I hadn't used it for a year. It's too easy to hang on to these fine lenses. Unlike the past, when they retained their value and even went up because of inflation, Canon periodically discounts them and even lowers their price. The 300/2.8 II and 400/4 DO II have now cheaper list prices than when I bought them and cashbacks are being offered.


Interesting Alan. Last I checked here that's not the case with the 300 in Canada, yet, but maybe it will be.

Jack


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 16, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> Interesting Alan. Last I checked here that's not the case with the 300 in Canada, yet, but maybe it will be.
> 
> Jack


The prices can have a lot to do with currency value changes, so different countries may see different results.


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## yungfat (Sep 16, 2018)

Talys said:


> lol... sadly, sometimes when I see ridiculous posts, I have to look at the name of the person who posted... to tell if it's sarcasm or serious, lol. Like, sometimes, "CANON IS *******!" is an eyeroll, while other times, the sentiment that "no human on the planet" would buy a one-card camera is serious, because, well, the person lives in a chemically induced hallucination or something.
> 
> It's like, all the Canon is ******* because the M50 can't do 4k DPAF people.... that was truly surreal to me.
> 
> Sometimes, I think there are folks who won't be happy until Canon launches an A7R3 with DPAF and prices it at 50% less than any competitors' product. And I'm not even being totally facetious. There are forum trolls who aren't going to be happy until a camera manufacturer comes out with something clearly superior to everything else in every way and is also much cheaper.



Hi Tayls,

Sorry if my comment make you uncomfortable. 

Of course it is not serious, but many people will just think that way. 

Since when Sony become market leader and everyone should go after them?

Big question mark to me...


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## martti (Sep 22, 2018)

5D4 pro: I have one
EOS R con: I do not have one.

If I am *******, Canon is not the reason.


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## fullstop (Sep 23, 2018)

"trolling" ...

when i criticize Canon for glaring omission of certain features, for technically and economically inexplicable design decisions (single SD slot, or dual slot with only 1 reasonably slot, the other one slow), and for very obvious marketing nerfing in even the tiniest aspects of a product's functionality (eg " 4 vs 6 segment vs %-precise battery charge meter) ... then it is considered "trolling" by some CanonFanBoys around here and obfuscated and ridiculed. so what!

Biggest difference between Sony and Canon/Nikon: Sony delivers *the very best they possibly can* to their customers, on their own volition and because they know, theyhave to in order to win us over.

Canon and Nikon generally are just sitting on their fat asses and large "legacy" customer base and only ever deliver great stuff, when they are really pushed hard by "public opinion" and forced to do so.

people like myself make sure Canon and Nikon get the necessary push and shove and straightfoward feedback they need to deliver decent stuff. If it were up to "the old Canon Defense League", Canon would simply get away with just about anything, no matter how ludicrously nerfed and mediocre it is.

people like me, our public criticism and our purchasing decisions have forced Canon to bring finally bring a mirrorfree FF camera system to market, no matter how much they would have preferred to sell 10 more iterations of marginally improved mirrorslappers to their old faithful.

so, just thank us "forum trolls", we are doing Canon customers a favor by influencibg public opinion on Canon products. Canon is forced to heed our criticism. if they ignore it for too long, they truly are *******. just like kodak and nokia phones were. that's the nice thing about "the internets".


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## tron (Sep 23, 2018)

fullstop said:


> when i criticize Canon for glaring omission of certain features, for technically and economically inexplicable design decisions (single SD slot, or dual slot with only 1 reasonably slot, the other one slow), and for very obvious marketing nerfing in even the tiniest aspects of a product's functionality (eg " 4 vs 6 segment vs %-precise battery charge meter) ... the it is considered "trolling" by some CanonFanBoys around here.
> 
> Biggest difference between Sony abd Canon/Nikon: Sony delivers the very best they possibly can to their customers, on their own. Canon and Nikon only deliver really great stuff, when they are really pushed hard by "public opinion" and forced to do so.
> 
> ...


I am pretty sure they do not care about you or me or any other forum member. And yes battery indication is trolling for me. The slow 2nd slot has being fixed after 5DMkIII and I am sure it has been fixed irrespective of your protests since the day you joined! And I am sure they brought a mirrorless FF also irrespective of your posts...


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## Mikehit (Sep 23, 2018)

And again you deliber


fullstop said:


> "trolling" ...
> 
> when i criticize Canon for glaring omission of certain features, for technically and economically inexplicable design decisions (single SD slot, or dual slot with only 1 reasonably slot, the other one slow), and for very obvious marketing nerfing in even the tiniest aspects of a product's functionality (eg " 4 vs 6 segment vs %-precise battery charge meter) ... then it is considered "trolling" by some CanonFanBoys around here and obfuscated and ridiculed. so what!
> 
> ...



What is considered 'trolling' is not pointing out Canon's shortcomings regards other brands but making unsubstantiated claims about Canon's motives, or your claim to represent millions of photographers or the financial viability of any features vs cost point and host of other claims.
Failing to understand this simply repeating such comments without entering into dialogue (ie responding to counter arguments) would on some fora constitute trolling and result in being banned.


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## Keith_Reeder (Sep 23, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Sony delivers *the very best they possibly can* to their customers.



Yeah, but _they clearly don't_, do they? Sony's many issues are all well-documented: they just seem to merit a pass on internet forums - they're not the "right kind" of problems to get forumistas frothing.


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## Keith_Reeder (Sep 23, 2018)

fullstop said:


> people like me, our public criticism and our purchasing decisions have forced Canon to bring finally bring a mirrorfree FF camera system to market,



You _vastly_ (and rather presumptiously) overestimate your importance to, and impact on, Canon (or anyone else), I'd suggest.


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## YuengLinger (Sep 23, 2018)

We can all look at the specs, but until we get thorough reviews and plenty of images, we are twiddling our thumbs.
From the "first looks," though, ergonomics look a little undercooked on the R.


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## fullstop (Sep 23, 2018)

there are a few specs i have to see/experience in real life to really assess them. And then there are many specs where i can already tell "on paper" that they are sh*t and will definitely bother me in real life. And I am rather good in recognizing pure and utter marketing nerfing, even when i do not know the exact internal cost points.

There is no discernible difference in cost between a 4 or 6-segment battery charge indicator. True, whether there is a 4- / 5- or 6-segment battery indicator in a camera is not a major problem. Not to me, and not to most others. The real problem is: why in late 2018 (!) is there not a battery meter with a %-number AND a nice intuitive graphic representation [continuous, without discernible "segments"] in each and every digital camera that is 100% dependent on battery power when virtually every mobile phone has such a charge indicator? Canon's product nerfing down to the last item is something I consider mindbogglingly backwards, counter-productive and totally stupid.

In essence, Canon's camera battery meters do not precisely show remaining battery charge, but they precisely show and demonstrate the kind of "corporate mindset" this company has and its perception of their customers. It is an attitude driven by corporate arrogance, greed and stupidity in equal parts.

So, I will definitely criticize Canon [and any other company if I encounter it] for that type of attitude and product design strategy ... every single time and all the time. Incessantly. 

And you are right, I don't give a f*ck whether Canon Defense Leaguers like that or not.


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## Mikehit (Sep 23, 2018)

It is well known that the charge indicator, like the reception signal indicator is there on mobile phones only to make people feel warm and cuddly and cared for. It has little to no benefit in real life use other than to tell if you need to recharge sometime today.
And for something that does not really matter to you, you don't half go on about it.


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## fullstop (Sep 23, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> It is well known that the charge indicator, like the reception signal indicator is there on mobile phones only to make people feel warm and cuddly and cared for. It has little to no benefit in real life use other than to tell if you need to recharge sometime today.



well, not in my experience. I find the %-battery meter on our iPhones to be quite good and highly appreciated functionally. It works down to the last % before the phone really conks out. And I can safely operate it down to 10% without having to worry at all immediate power loss. 

If my Canon cameras had a similarly good battery meter I would be already happy. But, no, thanks to "innovative" Canon and its marketing nerfing. 4-segments! 6-segments! Give me a f*cking break, Canon!


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 23, 2018)

"And I am rather good ... " The truth is here, hidden within. Everyone has opinions and most are able to offer them as such, but those who claim fact when it is merely conjecture, generally don't impress.  Of course they still think they do and that's OK, we all have a self image and ego. Thankfully we live in a region where there is free expression whether correct or incorrect. I can choose to pay attention or ignore.

Imagine, if we all assume our voices are never heard we'd never vote; and that would be a shame.

Jack


----------



## Frodo (Sep 23, 2018)

Canon provides a percentage battery use and the number of shots fired on that battery since charge. This is available in the menu and can be added to the quick menu so it is easily accessible.
I'm quite happy with the indicator on the top and with 700 + shots per charge this is absolutely not a problem.
I can think of improvements to my gear, but this is not one of them.


----------



## Valvebounce (Sep 24, 2018)

Hi fullstop. 
On the flip side I personally know 3 people who had to learn that some arbitrary number in the 20 to 30% range meant their iphones were just about to di.....



fullstop said:


> well, not in my experience. I find the %-battery meter on our iPhones to be quite good and highly appreciated functionally. It works down to the last % before the phone really conks out. And I can safely operate it down to 10% without having to worry at all immediate power loss.
> 
> If my Canon cameras had a similarly good battery meter I would be already happy. But, no, thanks to "innovative" Canon and its marketing nerfing. 4-segments! 6-segments! Give me a f*cking break, Canon!


----------



## fullstop (Sep 24, 2018)

Frodo said:


> Canon provides a percentage battery use and the number of shots fired on that battery since charge. This is available in the menu and can be added to the quick menu so it is easily accessible.
> I'm quite happy with the indicator on the top and with 700 + shots per charge this is absolutely not a problem.
> I can think of improvements to my gear, but this is not one of them.



only in some cameras. Typically not in the 4-battery-segment ones.


----------



## stevelee (Sep 24, 2018)

fullstop said:


> well, not in my experience. I find the %-battery meter on our iPhones to be quite good and highly appreciated functionally. It works down to the last % before the phone really conks out. And I can safely operate it down to 10% without having to worry at all immediate power loss.
> 
> If my Canon cameras had a similarly good battery meter I would be already happy. But, no, thanks to "innovative" Canon and its marketing nerfing. 4-segments! 6-segments! Give me a f*cking break, Canon!


I know that one or more of my Canon cameras have more detailed battery information available but buried in a menu somewhere. If I need to know more than the segments tell me, I can ferret the info out. I so very rarely shoot all day with my DSLR that I generally don’t need to look, and I’ve definitely not checked to see whether this info can be put on the main screen in customized settings. 

I can see for me more use for checking this page display as the battery approaches EOL.


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## stevelee (Sep 24, 2018)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi fullstop.
> On the flip side I personally know 3 people who had to learn that some arbitrary number in the 20 to 30% range meant their iphones were just about to di.....


I think that has been true on some models in some iOS versions. I can’t recall experiencing it myself. My phone warns me when it gets down to 10% and then 5%. I think the 5% level goes to zero pretty fast, though. My phone is about three years old, and the recharge efficiency is purported to be 87% now. I do plan to do the $29 replacement before it ends, and may keep the phone another three years. I don’t need to upgrade the phone for a better camera or more speed. No matter how fast the phone, I’m not going to talk any faster.


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## fullstop (Sep 24, 2018)

% charge info hidden in menu system is a weak workaround, when that info should really be prominently displayed on rear display. And on status display on top, if camera has one. And - user switchable - also in EVF.

Just a long, continuos, non-segmented bar and a % number next to it. Looking at EOS R new OLED status display ... battery gauge is just a joke. A hi-rez version of a 4-segment battery meter







Maybe future higher-end EOS R bodies will get a hi-rez version of a 6-segment battery charge meter. "canon-style" product differentiation.

Mk. III versions may then be announced with "newly designed, 10-segment battery charge indicator". And Canon Defense Leaguers will rejoice.


----------



## Bennymiata (Sep 24, 2018)

I can't understand why all the whinging about not having a joystick to move the focus points.
The touch and drag focus on my M5 is fantastic to use. So fast and accurate and certainly much faster than using the joystick on my 5d3.
To me, this is a real positive for the R. I wish my 5d3 has this feature.
I reckon using the touch bar for ISO and the lens ring for exposure compensation will also make it very easy to use too.

I'm really looking forward to trying one out.


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 24, 2018)

Bennymiata said:


> I can't understand why all the whinging about not having a joystick to move the focus points.
> The touch and drag focus on my M5 is fantastic to use. So fast and accurate and certainly much faster than using the joystick on my 5d3.
> To me, this is a real positive for the R. I wish my 5d3 has this feature.
> I reckon using the touch bar for ISO and the lens ring for exposure compensation will also make it very easy to use too.
> ...



It's not unlike the complaints about the 6D selector that differed from the joystick format. I found it a little too small to be efficient but overall it did the job rather well. Of course anyone coming from a joystick format would not be happy ... mainly because it's different. A recent topic of discussion - do humans like or dislike change - we're all over the map on that topic.

Jack


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## Talys (Sep 24, 2018)

fullstop said:


> % charge info hidden in menu system is a weak workaround, when that info should really be prominently displayed on rear display. And on status display on top, if camera has one. And - user switchable - also in EVF.
> 
> Just a long, continuos, non-segmented bar and a % number next to it. Looking at EOS R new OLED status display ... battery gauge is just a joke. A hi-rez version of a 4-segment battery meter
> 
> ...


The reviews I have read this far are very promising for battery performance. 

Frankly, I hate how on some cameras, 25% battery versus 60% battery is a huge deal. On every LP6 battery Canon camera I've owned so far, it just isn't. When it gets really low, like 1 bar, swap or change it. If you're going for a really long day, take a spare. Otherwise, don't sweat it. I really don't want to have to care to what percent my battery is charged.


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## Talys (Sep 24, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> It's not unlike the complaints about the 6D selector that differed from the joystick format. I found it a little too small to be efficient but overall it did the job rather well. Of course anyone coming from a joystick format would not be happy ... mainly because it's different. A recent topic of discussion - do humans like or dislike change - we're all over the map on that topic.
> 
> Jack


I've used all three styles pretty extensively (joystick, dpad, and touch), and my favourite is the joystick. Touch works best on smaller camera bodies in my opinion, and everything but joystick(with a a second joystick on a grip) falls short if you do a lot of portrait orientation shots with a grip for obvious reasons. 

But for most purposes, I think any of the point selection methods can work quite well. 

I wish there were a way to program just a few favorite points and toggle between them with a thumb dial.


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## AlanF (Sep 24, 2018)

I always carry a spare battery! But, I like to see a percent reading for a battery as I like numbers and they are useful. For example, you can quickly calculate how many shots per battery charge under different conditions from the percent remaining. The eadouts can be surprisingly accurate. I recently checked various chargers by plotting the increase in % charge vs time and the % rates were remarkably linear showing the readings were accurate. Us geeks like quantitation.


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## Frodo (Sep 24, 2018)

fullstop said:


> only in some cameras. Typically not in the 4-battery-segment ones.


Available in both my 5DsR and 6D and both have 4 sector indicators.
Not a problem. Let's move on.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 24, 2018)

Talys said:


> Frankly, I hate how on some cameras, 25% battery versus 60% battery is a huge deal. On every LP6 battery Canon camera I've owned so far, it just isn't. When it gets really low, like 1 bar, swap or change it. If you're going for a really long day, take a spare. Otherwise, don't sweat it. I really don't want to have to care to what percent my battery is charged.




I certainly "don't sweat it", also I would really prefer a "continuous bar" and a % number next to it.

Battery charge indicator is just one prominent example, how Canon is marketing nerfing their products down the absolutely very last detail in their [old-style and futile] attempts to nickel and dime their customers even in areas where "marketing differentiation" of products is simply ridiculous.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 24, 2018)

Frodo said:


> Available in both my 5DsR and 6D and both have 4 sector indicators.
> Not a problem. Let's move on.



yes it is a problem. Not so much the gauge per se, but the "Canon spirit and corporate attitude" revealing itself by incorporating 1970s style readouts [when LCD panels could technically only display coarse 4 or 6 kernel segments] in late 2018 cameras ... the real problem sits in Canon and Nikons beancounting octagenarian boardroom.


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 24, 2018)

Talys said:


> I've used all three styles pretty extensively (joystick, dpad, and touch), and my favourite is the joystick. Touch works best on smaller camera bodies in my opinion, and everything but joystick(with a a second joystick on a grip) falls short if you do a lot of portrait orientation shots with a grip for obvious reasons.
> 
> But for most purposes, I think any of the point selection methods can work quite well.
> 
> I wish there were a way to program just a few favorite points and toggle between them with a thumb dial.



I would think with so many focus points a joystick would be pretty frustrating to use too. Touch and drag is the natural and sensible way to adjust your focus points. Once you start using it you won't ever think about joysticks again.


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## Talys (Sep 24, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> I would think with so many focus points a joystick would be pretty frustrating to use too. Touch and drag is the natural and sensible way to adjust your focus points. Once you start using it you won't ever think about joysticks again.


The joystick doesn't go one pixel at a time, though (with the exception of Sony A7/A9's "+" focus mode). They bump over one square at a time, and that suits me just fine.

I am not as fond of touch and drag because my thumb doesn't naturally rest on the LCD, especially on heavier cameras with heavier lenses, and also because it doesn't work if you're using the camera gripped in portrait mode. Because there's no LCD there when the camera is rotated, I end up having two control paradigms to contend with at the same time.

However, don't get me wrong; touch and drag is a fine system. It's cool, and I think that modern cameras should have it, since they pretty much all have touch screens that the thumb can access, at least in landscape orientation.


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## fullstop (Sep 24, 2018)

Until Canon implements a new, improved version of Eye Control AF, both methods for selection of AF field/s should be implemented: touch and joystick. Both have their advantages, depending on situation and personal preferences. Adding a joystick should not break the bank in terms of production cost on a camera that sells for € 2.799 ...


----------



## AlanF (Sep 24, 2018)

I was a little confused by some of the discussion and my remark above may not have been clear. I tend not to look at the LCD display but have always gone to the Battery Info in the menu of my various 5Ds and 7Ds to read the % remaining. It's a nice Canon feature that tells you both how many shots you have taken with the battery and the % used and so you get a good feel for the battery life with different usage and how your individual batteries are holding up.


----------



## Valvebounce (Sep 24, 2018)

Hi Talys. 
You forgot gloves, touch screens don’t work with gloves, even the touch screen compatible ones are sporadic at best and that type of glove is in my experience generally not warm enough during the winter months, after a couple of hours holding a magnesium camera they sap the heat away from your hands very efficiently. 

Cheers, Graham. 



Talys said:


> The joystick doesn't go one pixel at a time, though (with the exception of Sony A7/A9's "+" focus mode). They bump over one square at a time, and that suits me just fine.
> 
> I am not as fond of touch and drag because my thumb doesn't naturally rest on the LCD, especially on heavier cameras with heavier lenses, and also because it doesn't work if you're using the camera gripped in portrait mode. Because there's no LCD there when the camera is rotated, I end up having two control paradigms to contend with at the same time.
> 
> However, don't get me wrong; touch and drag is a fine system. It's cool, and I think that modern cameras should have it, since they pretty much all have touch screens that the thumb can access, at least in landscape orientation.


----------



## Talys (Sep 24, 2018)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Talys.
> You forgot gloves, touch screens don’t work with gloves, even the touch screen compatible ones are sporadic at best and that type of glove is in my experience generally not warm enough during the winter months, after a couple of hours holding a magnesium camera they sap the heat away from your hands very efficiently.
> 
> Cheers, Graham.



Yes, good point. This is very true, for birding too. There are a lot of subjects like migratory birds and owls that we see here only in certain winter months, when warm gloves are very welcome.


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 24, 2018)

Talys said:


> Yes, good point. This is very true, for birding too. There are a lot of subjects like migratory birds and owls that we see here only in certain winter months, when warm gloves are very welcome.



Alberta and it can snow any month of the year - this year mid Sept. and I was out shooting with gloves and managing quite well.

Jack


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## Valvebounce (Sep 24, 2018)

Hi Jack. 
Out shooting with gloves, and using a touch screen? 
I have tried various gloves, they invariably don’t work well with touch screens,  but they always work well with the joystick! 

Cheers, Graham. 



Jack Douglas said:


> Alberta and it can snow any month of the year - this year mid Sept. and I was out shooting with gloves and managing quite well.
> 
> Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 24, 2018)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Jack.
> Out shooting with gloves, and using a touch screen?
> I have tried various gloves, they invariably don’t work well with touch screens,  but they always work well with the joystick!
> 
> Cheers, Graham.



Graham - 1DX2. Sometimes I use a wool "sock" on my right hand. It's a piece I cut off of the top of very heavy above the ankle winter wool socks and is very "elastic". The end towards my fingers tends to shrink shut until I force my fingers out. When not firing, my fingers would be curled up in the sock. It can also be pushed back onto the wrist. Not perfect but an option. 

I've toyed with trying to extend this idea to a sock that would partially pull over the side of the camera. In that case you'd slide your hand into a woolly pocket. I'd love to hear anyone's ideas.

Jack


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## Don Haines (Sep 24, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> Graham - 1DX2. Sometimes I use a wool "sock" on my right hand. It's a piece I cut off of the top of very heavy above the ankle winter wool socks and is very "elastic". The end towards my fingers tends to shrink shut until I force my fingers out. When not firing, my fingers would be curled up in the sock. It can also be pushed back onto the wrist. Not perfect but an option.
> 
> I've toyed with trying to extend this idea to a sock that would partially pull over the side of the camera. In that case you'd slide your hand into a woolly pocket. I'd love to hear anyone's ideas.
> 
> Jack



There are lots of gloves out there that are made to work with a touchscreen....

https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-touchscreen-gloves/


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## Valvebounce (Sep 25, 2018)

Hi Don. 
Thanks for the link. Not sure if I can get any of them in the UK. They might be a bit warm for our winter if they are for Canadian or arctic winters. 
I think I have 5 different pairs of touch screen compatible gloves from the high street (UK) from reputable brand to store’s own brand, they all seem to stop working after a couple of days use, don’t ask me what I do to them I don’t know!
So the solution is mash the big button on the phone and say ‘Call Angela’ and use the joystick on the camera, no need for flakey gloves!  
I’m sure some others get on well with touch screen compatible gloves, I just seem to short them out or something or maybe it is my fingers as I sometimes have problems with touch screens without gloves unless I huff on my fingers like when cleaning spectacles! 

Cheers, Graham.


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 25, 2018)

In my case I guess I go out when it's much colder and virtually all gloves aren't enough for me. I'm talking down to close to -20C. Since I don't need touch except for video it's not an issue. I've heard comments that the cameras won't work down to those temps but my 6D did.

If only I could say a glove would be too warm!! Poor circulation getting worse with age. I do pack hand warmers.

Jack


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## peterzuehlke (Sep 25, 2018)

shunsai said:


> A bit early, but let's get it started! How does the Canon EOS R compare to the 5D Mark IV?
> 
> I admit, this is for completely self-serving reasons, but I'm sure the feedback can be useful to others stuck between choosing one or the other.
> 
> ...


In the video I didn't hear them mention "faster autofocus" What I heard, correct me if I am wrong, is that the greater number of contacts allows faster communication between lens and body which aides autofocus and they said the R has more accurate autofocus in low light. My Sony mirroless certainly has more accurate AF in low light, but it is very slow.


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## Ozarker (Sep 25, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> You _vastly_ (and rather presumptiously) overestimate your importance to, and impact on, Canon (or anyone else), I'd suggest.



He's hilariously self important. I laughed really hard on that post.


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## tron (Sep 25, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> He's hilariously self important. I laughed really hard on that post.


He must feel very important since Apr 23, 2018 when he registered to this forum


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## Ozarker (Sep 25, 2018)

tron said:


> He must feel very important since Apr 23, 2018 when he registered to this forum



Well, he did legally change his screen name from AvTvM.


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## tron (Sep 25, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Well, he did legally change his screen name from AvTvM.


Did he admit to it?


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 25, 2018)

If you do photography in a swamp you're bound to get bitten by mosquitoes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting CR is a swamp.

Jack


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## tron (Sep 25, 2018)

The mere thought hadn't even crossed my mind!


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## chrysoberyl (Sep 25, 2018)

Kit. said:


> 7" monitor for 5D4 with swivel and focus peaking - with HDMI pass-through.



Which one do you recommend?


----------



## jeffa4444 (Oct 2, 2018)

shunsai said:


> Has there been any word on weather sealing on the R? That bare metal-to-metal mount connection doesn't look too weather-resistant.
> 
> Also, is it new that you can record 4K to an external recorder with an HDMI cable? I don't use video much, so I don't know if the 5D4 did this already or not.


Comparable to the 6D MKII for weather sealing. My 6D MKII was soaked on my last trip out on Dartmoor, wiped it dry with a towel back at my car and its been perfectly fine.


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## jeffa4444 (Oct 2, 2018)

AlanF said:


> Are you sure it is faster? Canon has a footnote as a caveat for_ fastest_: "_Among interchangeable lens digital mirrorless cameras incorporating 35mm full frame equivalent image sensors with phase-difference detection AF on the image plane and contrast detection AF, available in the market as of September 5th, 2018 (Based on Canon's Research)._", which excludes the 5DIV. In fact, the EOS R is rated by Canon at 5 fps for focussing for APS-C vs 7 fps for the 5DIV. The EOS R can do 10 fps only if it doesn't AF after the first frame.


Trust me it focuses fast


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## jeffa4444 (Oct 2, 2018)

yungfat said:


> Canon is *******!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is a dying subject. The new Sony one piece SD cards are the future (not breakdown prone CFast). 32, 64 & 128GD, 300mb/s read, 299 mb/s write V90 SDXC II. Can be dropped up 5 metres without failure! 

Never had a single SD card failure, cannot say the same for CF & CFast.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Oct 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> "trolling" ...
> 
> when i criticize Canon for glaring omission of certain features, for technically and economically inexplicable design decisions (single SD slot, or dual slot with only 1 reasonably slot, the other one slow), and for very obvious marketing nerfing in even the tiniest aspects of a product's functionality (eg " 4 vs 6 segment vs %-precise battery charge meter) ... then it is considered "trolling" by some CanonFanBoys around here and obfuscated and ridiculed. so what!
> 
> ...



Utter non-sense. When you have seen the RF lenses up close and personal as well as the newer EF lenses, when you have seen Sony cameras sitting on shelves while 5D MKIVs go out on rental then your understand Canon is a business. A business needs to make money so it can innovate, to defend patents, to support clients, to train & pay staff. To have a room full of technicians, cameras & lenses at major events, to provide a three day turn-around service for CPS members, to have dealer support, to have sales & marketing staff. You don't risk that by always being the market leader in technology change, however Canon are one of the largest companies in the world in filing patents with real world benefits on things like dual-pixel sensors. Canon will do just fine, sure Sony make great products but ask yourself what happened to their TV market where once they were the market leader?


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## tron (Oct 2, 2018)

jeffa4444 said:


> This is a dying subject. The new Sony one piece SD cards are the future (not breakdown prone CFast). 32, 64 & 128GD, 300mb/s read, 299 mb/s write V90 SDXC II. Can be dropped up 5 metres without failure!
> 
> Never had a single SD card failure, cannot say the same for CF & CFast.


It's not only about physical damage! It is also about data corruption or any other accident.
I had an SD card freeze my 5DIV. I did suspect the card but before that it worked flawlessly in my 7DII and 5D3. Now it works also flawlessly in my G7X II. Go figure! But a second slot is useful no matter what (even for a very important small subset of our photos)


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## tron (Oct 2, 2018)

And.... only 299MB/sec write instead of .... 300MB/sec read? Sony must be *******


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## AlanF (Oct 2, 2018)

jeffa4444 said:


> Trust me it focuses fast



What does that mean? Can it capture a bird in flight moving at speed? My M5 focusses fast but not well for BIF.
How small is the smallest focussing square? Is it the size of a spot focus in a 5DIV/III/SR or 7DI/II?


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 3, 2018)

jeffa4444 said:


> This is a dying subject. The new Sony one piece SD cards are the future (not breakdown prone CFast). 32, 64 & 128GD, 300mb/s read, 299 mb/s write V90 SDXC II. Can be dropped up 5 metres without failure!
> 
> Never had a single SD card failure, cannot say the same for CF & CFast.



I never had a single SD card failure in my cameras, but for my day job involving embedded (linux) systems, SD cards fail often. Power cycling seems to be the nemesis of SD cards, which happens every reboot on the systems I work with. During development most cards don't last a year.
Another failure mode is the microcontroller in the SD card getting confused. You can trigger that by sending nonsense to one of the pins at a high data rate.

Buying large volumes of SD cards is also tricky, Kingston refuses to tell you what you are getting, since they relabel cards from other manufacturers and worse, even through official channels you will get a fair percentage of counterfeit cards, no matter the brand.

Personally, I've settled on Sandisk cards for SDXC systems and pre-rename Lexar for UHS-II systems. So far, so good, but generally speaking, I trust SD cards not even as far as I can throw them 

As for CF cards, I'm very proficient in bending back pins  For all the problems SD cards have, I am glad CF is a thing of the past in both cameras and embedded systems.


----------



## bokehmon22 (Oct 21, 2018)

fullstop said:


> "Sony delivers *the very best they possibly can* to their customers, on their own volition and because they know, theyhave to in order to win us over.



Sony choose to use lower resolution EVF in their A7III to fit $2000 price point. Despite developing LCD TV and smart phone, they couldn't implement touch screen in their camera and use lower quality LCD than Nikon and Canon. 

They could provide firmware upgrade so their A7ii color science match their newer camera but they don't. They want you to buy the latest and greatest.


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Oct 30, 2018)

Has any one done a DR test between the 5D4 and the Eos R yet? I'm kind of wondering how close the Eos R's sensor is to the 5D4.


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## AlanF (Oct 30, 2018)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Has any one done a DR test between the 5D4 and the Eos R yet? I'm kind of wondering how close the Eos R's sensor is to the 5D4.


They are basically the same.
http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS 5D Mark IV,Canon EOS R


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## AlanF (Oct 30, 2018)

jeffa4444 said:


> Trust me it focuses fast


I got by mistake into a youtube by one of CR's least favourites, Tony Northrup, comparing mirrorless for action photography. He claims that the R basically doesn't work with a 600mm f/4 II. Have you checked the AF with a telephoto?


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## Act444 (Oct 30, 2018)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Has any one done a DR test between the 5D4 and the Eos R yet? I'm kind of wondering how close the Eos R's sensor is to the 5D4.



I don’t know about DR (I’d think similar if not the same?) but in another thread I posted findings on comparisons I made processing R files vs. 5D4 files. To briefly summarize, it *appears* from the few files I tested that the R files take sharpening better with less impact on overall image quality, potentially resulting in a cleaner final product particularly if you edit images to be sharp and detailed. However due to the limited test conditions I’m not fully confident in these findings. The flip side is that this would be partially negated by the R files needing more sharpening by default than the 5D4 ones do since the R output is (even) softer, go figure. But if one doesn’t mind shooting RAW and putting in the extra time in post, something to potentially keep in mind...


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## AlanF (Oct 30, 2018)

Act444 said:


> I don’t know about DR (I’d think similar if not the same?) but in another thread I posted findings on comparisons I made processing R files vs. 5D4 files. To briefly summarize, it *appears* from the few files I tested that the R files take sharpening better with less impact on overall image quality, potentially resulting in a cleaner final product particularly if you edit images to be sharp and detailed. However due to the limited test conditions I’m not fully confident in these findings. The flip side is that this would be partially negated by the R files needing more sharpening by default than the 5D4 ones do since the R output is (even) softer, go figure. But if one doesn’t mind shooting RAW and putting in the extra time in post, something to potentially keep in mind...


Read my post two above yours - the DRs have been measured and are within experimental error the same.
I would be surprised if sharpening has noticeably different effects on the RAW files,.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 30, 2018)

I thought I'd compare files with my 5D MK $ and R. The two cameras were setup identically and remotely controlled with Canon utilities using these settings:

color 5200K, Neutral, 0,2,2,0,0,0 WB Shift 0.0, 1/30 sec f/8 ISO 100.

Then I imported them into Adobelightroom and noted that the histograms were different. So, I manually set everything to zero, and the color temp to 5200 for both.

Lo and behold, the colors were different. Adobe obviously was not reading coor temp from the files, and the histogram was different between the two photos in a obvious way.

So, then I went to DPP and processed the raw files. They appeared identical with the color temps set to 5200 as I had set in the camera.

I cropped just the area near the focus point, it was the top line of text. 

Here are the four crops, EOS-R in LR, 5D MK IV in LR, EOS-R in DPP, 5D MK IV in DPP. all were focused using canon utilities, the camera was on a head that is securely bolted to a heavy light table.

1. EOS-R in Lightroom





2. 5D MK IV in Lightroom






3. EOS-R in DPP





4. 5D MK IV in DPP


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 30, 2018)

Notice the different colors when the camera is set to a fixed 5200K even though lens, settings, lighting, and position of the cameras are the same. It is likely due to different internal camera calibrations of the sensor, its pretty slight in DPP.

I wonder if setting color temp to auto would result in less difference. I've wasted too much time today though!

I think that color temps make the files look different.


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## AlanF (Oct 30, 2018)

The 5DIV image looks sharper.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 30, 2018)

As long as I still had one camera setup, I went ahead with capturing them with WB set to white priority and cropped in DPP so they are 1:1 or close. There is a exposure difference in the processed files, if I wanted to use my color checker to calibrate the cameras, the results should be closer.


1. EOS R auto WB as imported in DPP



2. 5D MK IV Auto WB as imported in DPP


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## Act444 (Oct 30, 2018)

Interesting...

I wonder what makes the LR image sharper (on both cameras)...

Other than that, this would support my experience with the 5D4 images being a bit crisper OOC.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 30, 2018)

Finally, the files as imported into lightroom with everything set to zero and WB as shot. These look closer than DPP. LR sees drastically different color temps, 5850 versus 8100.


1. EOS-R set to auto WB as imported in LR




2. 5D MK IV set to auto WB as imported in LR


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## tron (Oct 31, 2018)

I cannot help it. By reading the comments about EOS 5DMkIV being sharper I must ask:

Have you AF Microadjusted EOS R?


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## Act444 (Oct 31, 2018)

AlanF said:


> I would be surprised if sharpening has noticeably different effects on the RAW files,.



After looking at it closer, I think it's probably more or less a wash...the R pictures can tolerate more sharpening, definitely, but that's likely only because they are softer to begin with. However, I'm still convinced that there are subtle differences in the way DPP processes files from the two cameras...it's apparent particularly with the NR sliders.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 31, 2018)

AlanF said:


> The 5DIV image looks sharper.


Yes, it appears sharper. 

I have read that its due to different in camera sharpening (even raws are sharpened), the R is softer. I did not try to see if they could be sharpened to optimal for both and be more similar, they are presented just as I processed them with adjustments the same as best I could do.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 31, 2018)

Act444 said:


> Interesting...
> 
> I wonder what makes the LR image sharper (on both cameras)...
> 
> Other than that, this would support my experience with the 5D4 images being a bit crisper OOC.



DPP reads the neutral setting from the camera and probably applies less sharpening that lightroom, they are definitely different. I'd bet that DXO and Capture One would be different as well by a tiny amount.

Yes, the 5D MK IV files are crisper. I've read that from different competent testers, they have tried to explain that the camera sharpens them or sets contrast differently, I have no information about that, but I see the difference. I'd be happy to make the raw files available to someone who wanted to see what DXO Prime does, or what Capture One does with them.

The only other thing I could try is manual focusing and 10X magnification on my 24 inch monitor. I doubt that it would turn out differently. These were with a 50mm f/2.5 macro at fairly close distance. The camera was mounted in the exact same place, so difference in distance to the sensor should be pretty minimal. There may be a better way to compare them, but its as good as I could do.


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## AlanF (Oct 31, 2018)

Mt S, I’d like to compare the RAWs using the latest DxO if you make them available.


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## GMCPhotographics (Oct 31, 2018)

Adobe LR has a camera profile which is uses when a RAW file is imported. So it's possible that the Eos R's profile is beta...or there's a
WB centering error in it. The WB sliders in LR are a fraction of what the Program can provide. I have an Infra red modified camera and I had to create a custom camera profile to access the WB range I needed to swap the channels (or at least neutralise them). 
In terms of RAW default sharpening, again, the Lightroom camera profile will automatically assign a preset amount of sharpening based on the camera model. So until Adobe releases the right camera profile...it's hard to make any real world comparisons with Lightroom.


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## GMCPhotographics (Oct 31, 2018)

Just thinking out loud here...this thread is in the DSLR category....we need a whole new category for this camera. It's not a DSLR, it has no prism...therefore no reflex. Do it's an DSL. Or a maybe a DRF (Digital Range Finder)....


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## Valvebounce (Oct 31, 2018)

Hi GMC. 
I believe the term you are looking for is MILC, Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera? As it is being compared to a DSLR it seems like the right place! 

Cheers, Graham.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 31, 2018)

here are links to two of the raw files.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jedcn8i17gt5v1q/5D MK IV Auto WB DPP.CR2?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r4my8zkut7dq0l3/EOS R Auto WB DPP.CR3?dl=0


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## Viggo (Oct 31, 2018)

I’m also getting very weird WB readings in Lr with the EOS R, using flash WB at 5600 is reported as 7000 in Lr... it’s really annoying...


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## GMCPhotographics (Nov 2, 2018)

Viggo said:


> I’m also getting very weird WB readings in Lr with the EOS R, using flash WB at 5600 is reported as 7000 in Lr... it’s really annoying...


That because the Camera profile in LR is set for a different camera. You might need to make a custom profile or wait until Adobe releases it's own new camera profile. Under the Light Room hood....LR has a far bigger wb range than the interface allows us to use. The camera profile limits this range to a usable range. Otherwise a 1/100th change would make a massive change in wb and not offer the gentle or subtle control that we are used to.


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## Viggo (Nov 2, 2018)

GMCPhotographics said:


> That because the Camera profile in LR is set for a different camera. You might need to make a custom profile or wait until Adobe releases it's own new camera profile. Under the Light Room hood....LR has a far bigger wb range than the interface allows us to use. The camera profile limits this range to a usable range. Otherwise a 1/100th change would make a massive change in wb and not offer the gentle or subtle control that we are used to.


I’ve never had this issue with any other camera before, and I use custom ColorChecker profiles, not any of the standard ones...


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## GMCPhotographics (Nov 4, 2018)

I posted a more detailed impression over on the Eos R first impressions thread. 
I basically think that the 5D4 is far more suited to my current photography. I hated the EOS 5 body, It's UI and lack of direct buttons made it feel like a posh Digicam. I like the EVF...very nice. Great sensor, but the Eye focus, face focus and general AF ability is pretty poor at f1.2/ f1.4...but fine at f4. The UI felt like a different brand to me and due to the adapter...most of my EF lenses felt huge in comparison. So, I'll stick with the 5D series DSLR's as my main cameras and maybe pick up an ESO 5 in a year or so as a play thing once the price has settled down. It's currently way over priced for what it is and as a camera it's not a mature product. It's got a lot of promise and some really nice advantages....but currently it's a no from me.


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## yungfat (Jan 26, 2019)

So has anyone decided the upgrade path whether go for 5D IV or EOS R?
I’m still thinking and not sure which to go. Wish to upgrade my 6D with higher megapixels camera.


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## Viggo (Jan 26, 2019)

yungfat said:


> So has anyone decided the upgrade path whether go for 5D IV or EOS R?
> I’m still thinking and not sure which to go. Wish to upgrade my 6D with higher megapixels camera.



I’m one of those people who REALLY disliked mirrorless and evf etc. I said on many occasions that the only reason I would buy a mirrorless is when they include an OVF in them.

But, here we are, I’ve completely abandoned DSLR’s and sold my 1dx2 and using the R and I’ve never loved a camera more, for me, it is the best thing I’ve ever used.

I would choose it 100 out of a 100 times over over a 5d4.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 26, 2019)

Viggo, did you also do video with the 1DX2? I'm most interested in hearing why the R for you exceeds the 1DX2. I'd gladly give the weight up for one and I'd be thrilled with more resolution but ...

Jack


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## Viggo (Jan 26, 2019)

Jack Douglas said:


> Viggo, did you also do video with the 1DX2? I'm most interested in hearing why the R for you exceeds the 1DX2. I'd gladly give the weight up for one and I'd be thrilled with more resolution but ...
> 
> Jack



I barley did any video with the 1dx2, It’s too much work for the quality standard I have, and it’s just basic documentation. I have loads of videos shot of my kids, and if it’s shot on my iPhone, Sony handycam or a 1 or 5- series I really don’t care.

For stills what the R does better is weight/size and AF related. The precision and spread of AF area I can put focus wherever I want. It doesn’t have those almost
Focused shots , it’s always, and I mean always, dead on. It works for kids faces. I can customize everything. There is no fiddeling or calibrating or anything. It’s like a Mac vs pc, no baby sitting, you turn it on it just gets the job done and works.

Also, I had more than a few beers, so I might adjust this post later, cheers!


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 27, 2019)

Viggo, the AF comments are a positive moving forward since many have identified Canon as being behind Nikon for top end cameras. The size/weight is a given.

I find that the 1DX2 gives me great versatility relative to AF programming - shutter is spot, BB is multi, and DOF button is spot with surrounding points, with customization of parameters within those. My thumb plus shutter finger are always operating together switching without thought. I imagine the illuminated AF point is no longer a plus feature of significance, but I value that? I do find the central AF point area to be restrictive for up close long lens shooting.

I imagine, since it's a function of light level that you still have AF point sensitivities that favour the central region.

However, I have no knocks on the video, unlike all the early doomsayers and I've found $100 USD 256 GB cards that'll record 4K60 so far without hick-up. DPAF is excellent but I'm using a gimbal which adds to the weight significantly. Now IBIS is a potential plus moving forward(unfortunately the R doesn't have it) but it can't replace the full functionality of a gimbal anyway. Viewing my video on a 4K TV I'm really impressed. 

Given that the X in 1DX2 represents video it can't really be dismissed as not entering the picture relative to an overall evaluation. However, CR folk seem to not generally be interested in video so .... and this thread is actually not about the 1DX2 and I can't comment on the 5D4 video quality.

Whatever you might add about the R is of interest to me for sure.

Jack


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## Jethro (Jan 27, 2019)

yungfat said:


> So has anyone decided the upgrade path whether go for 5D IV or EOS R?
> I’m still thinking and not sure which to go. Wish to upgrade my 6D with higher megapixels camera.


I had to make that choice (on upgrading from a 6D) late last year, in the face of serious discounts off the 5D IV, and the first decent discounts from the EOS R a couple of weeks before Xmas. In the end I went with the EOS R, being stil a level cheaper and as well as the fact that I am (i) not into video, (ii) generally shooting in one-shot mode and (iii) mainly wanting an upgrade in sensor and IQ. I seemed to be getting pretty much all of the benefits of the 5D IV without a bunch of the pro features (like weather sealing) I don't really need. Very happy so far. I also think the RF mount is the way of the future, and I don't tend to turn over camera bodies every couple of years. It has to depend on your expected usage though.


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## Viggo (Jan 27, 2019)

Jack Douglas said:


> Viggo, the AF comments are a positive moving forward since many have identified Canon as being behind Nikon for top end cameras. The size/weight is a given.
> 
> I find that the 1DX2 gives me great versatility relative to AF programming - shutter is spot, BB is multi, and DOF button is spot with surrounding points, with customization of parameters within those. My thumb plus shutter finger are always operating together switching without thought. I imagine the illuminated AF point is no longer a plus feature of significance, but I value that? I do find the central AF point area to be restrictive for up close long lens shooting.
> 
> ...


I can add that I actually have used video more on the R, it has an option for smaller files, and the files are in general a lot smaller so I can actually use without filling up the cards and hdd. And I can get much better angles with the flippy screen and support is much easier when I can record using the VF.

What I like about the AF in addition, is that it doesn’t seem to matter where I put the AF point in terms of sensitivity and quality of focus. I felt limited with the 1dx2, with the 85 L IS for actiononly the center point was any good. And the fact that I always had to try multiple times to really nail focus on still subjects, it wasn’t off by much, but not anywhere near the quality of focus I get now. I don’t have all those AF setups now, mostly because I don’t need them, it just seems to work without all the fiddeling.

And one weird thing is that I always had issues with holding the 1-series in terms of getting level horizons, I always held it a bit tilted, but always straight with the R, I sometimes pull up the level just to check, and it’s already level. That means no cropping in post, awesome.

Now I can pull up the camera take ONE shot and it’s what I wanted, focus, WB, exposure, complete freedom for composition without recomposing etc. So there is much, much less frustration and that goes for the kids as well, no need for 10-15 shots and fingers crossed. Histogram and level on and off with the Touch Bar individually in the VF is also great. I just won’t go back


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## yungfat (Jan 27, 2019)

Viggo said:


> I’m one of those people who REALLY disliked mirrorless and evf etc. I said on many occasions that the only reason I would buy a mirrorless is when they include an OVF in them.
> 
> But, here we are, I’ve completely abandoned DSLR’s and sold my 1dx2 and using the R and I’ve never loved a camera more, for me, it is the best thing I’ve ever used.
> 
> I would choose it 100 out of a 100 times over over a 5d4.



Thanks Viggo.

What caused you make such drastic change from 1DX2 level camera down to R? Why not you wait for the pro level R?

Btw, how you think about the AF performance of R? Not about subject tracking, but the reliability of the AF especially outer one. My 6D tends to missed focus on the outer AF points...

Thanks for sharing.


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## yungfat (Jan 27, 2019)

Jethro said:


> I had to make that choice (on upgrading from a 6D) late last year, in the face of serious discounts off the 5D IV, and the first decent discounts from the EOS R a couple of weeks before Xmas. In the end I went with the EOS R, being stil a level cheaper and as well as the fact that I am (i) not into video, (ii) generally shooting in one-shot mode and (iii) mainly wanting an upgrade in sensor and IQ. I seemed to be getting pretty much all of the benefits of the 5D IV without a bunch of the pro features (like weather sealing) I don't really need. Very happy so far. I also think the RF mount is the way of the future, and I don't tend to turn over camera bodies every couple of years. It has to depend on your expected usage though.



Thanks Jethro.

By the way, do you notice any banding on your night photography? YouTube reviewer Tony Northrup reported that he got a very bad banding shoot from a random night photography. 

I am totally same situation as you. From the place I from, I’m able to obtain R with 24-105 kit for cost slightly lesser than 5DIV body only price. Frankly, this is the main reason why R come into the picture. 

I don’t do any video work and just wanted a better IQ and higher megapixels camera to upgrade. 1DX2 is not my stuff, 6D mark II doesn’t seems attracted to me as a 6D user for many years. 5DIV was my only upgrade plan until the release of R. 

Have been sourcing around this 2 months around the webs and YouTube try to figure out more about the pros and cons of the R. 

As expected, there are many Canon haters out there. I never used any camera with IBIS, I think I probably don’t need it. My 6D is only one card slot, I do not have any problem so far. 

I don’t really care about the one or two stop DR advantage at ISO 64 or 100 as I never under exposed my picture by 5.5 stops and pull it up on LR...

In fact, I always looking for a body with articulating screen with Full Frame sensors, besides 6D2, there isn’t any alternative in the market. Canon understand what customer want, they build something really want rather than have a better “spec sheet” camera.

Overall the user feedback are good, I may probably pull the trigger in next one or two months time. 

Thanks for sharing.


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## SecureGSM (Jan 27, 2019)

Viggo said:


> ... And one weird thing is that I always had issues with holding the 1-series in terms of getting level horizons, I always held it a bit tilted, but always straight with the R, I sometimes pull up the level just to check, and it’s already level. That means no cropping in post, awesome...


I was having a similar issues with one of my 5D IV - I always held it a bit tilted. it turns out that the mirror assembly was slightly out of alignment with the sensor by a very small angle of approx. 1.5 degree counterclockwise.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 27, 2019)

Viggo, thanks for that. That's a pretty awesome report. Some of it is subjective of course and having made the switch it wouldn't feel too good focusing on what you may have lost in the move. I do take the comments as representing your honest opinion and value them.

My thought was the R for a back up and certainly I will be considering that but _our use scenarios seem to differ quite a bit since I shoot a lot with the 400DO II_ and AF with that is fast and still impressive with 2X. It would be nice if someone who is shooting maybe 300 2.8 II X2 and could give me a comparison (similar to the 400). After all, many comments have been made about 1DX2 battery power required for speedy AF with big lenses.

I like others can see an obvious benefit being able to use filters with the adapter ring and the 11-24.

And, for uses more like you're describing I can see the flip screen and full frame AF points would be awesome as well as other points you make. So, I have now downloaded the manual to start taking a more serious look at this camera. Then it'll be a trip to the store to try it with some of my lenses.

Jack


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## Viggo (Jan 27, 2019)

yungfat said:


> Thanks Viggo.
> 
> What caused you make such drastic change from 1DX2 level camera down to R? Why not you wait for the pro level R?
> 
> ...



Why I made the move is based on weight and cost and my hate for AF that doesn’t work over time, and it’s the reason why I have always upgraded my 1-series as soon as a new model is out, they start to miss more and more and the constant looking after and calibrating and it still doesn’t hit. And with the 1dx2 I treated like a baby in order to not knock anything out of alignment, yet when it began missing and I handed it in for a checkup they said that the sensor and some mirror assembly stuff was out of alignment, not covered by warranty. So it really annoys me when I read about how they’re built like tanks etc, every. single. 5-series and 1-series I’ve had, haf these issues. I shoot only the fastest primes with no dof so it shows immediately. I hate spend loads of time taking thousands of test shots to try an figure out how to fix it. The AF spread is a major reason why I switched. And I figured that spending 7500 USD on yet another body that is only good for 2-5 years is not going to happen when everything moves towards mirrorless.

So, freedom with AF in terms of how precise and where I can place it and the new RF50 was big reasons. And my health doesn’t like the heavy 1-series anymore. I had lower expectations for tracking my kids with the R, but it’s much better, even with the RF50 who really doesn’t match a 70-200 for example.

I liked the 14 fps because it made the chance better of hitting, not the right moment, but focus. There was always the best frame (among others)that wasn’t in focus. Now every shot is in focus, hence the need for 14 isn’t there for me anymore.

Smaller, lighter, better lens, cheaper and gets better results, easy choice.

Something simple as this shot there is no need to recompose when the spread of AF point covers everything.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 27, 2019)

Viggo, this is one of the rare occasions I've heard of the 1DX2 (and other 1 series cameras) having such inconsistency of auto focus. At the moment I don't know what to think of it. Any time I've established the AFMA settings it seems I'm good to go after that.

It's challenging going through a manual without the camera in hand! I do not see any info on whether it has double cross AF points or whether the AF point sensitivities vary across the full screen. In the 1DX2 manual the sensitivities and cross types are given for the various lenses. Is mirrorless simply not like this?

I see the R has a lot of programmability of buttons but at a glance it doesn't seem to allow as much choice of AF parameters associated with the particular AF modes in these assignments. What I could really benefit from is someone who presently uses the full capability of the 1DX2 and also owns the R giving a run down of what can and can't be done equally well with the R (Viggo, I guess you could do that but it would be from memory and not a direct comparison and maybe some cases of AF you've never bothered with etc.??). Guess this should really be a different thread.

Viggo, unlike you, I know I would miss the 14 FPS and here is my example of why. Some moments are very fleeting and not even registered at the time by the persons brain. However, the AF is not always perfect in such shots as the 1DX2 can't track very fast movements, which aligns with what you say.

Jack


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## Viggo (Jan 27, 2019)

Lovely shot!

I guess they are not comparable in some ways, and each have their strengths. Mirrorless like the R only has horizontal line sensitively, no cross type. Yet it’s way better to just nail focus, and when in Servo locked where both camera and subject is still the AF is 100% stable, often the DSLR’s still go a little bit back and forth.

For the fast directly towards the camera I believe the 1dx2 will have more shots to choose from, but with experience I don’t exactly struggle with the R. Would have been superb to have a go at soccer with a 70-200, but I have only the RF50. Have tried that for ice-skating and had no issues. Seriously high keeper rate.

BIF I think the 1dx2 is the better choice for several reasons, like having OVF and better battery and the high fps etc.

But the fact that the R is so close in other terms, and in a few ways better I think speaks volumes of it’s capability.

I would not recommend every 1dx2 owner to replace it with the R, but it is a serious tool.

I used the 1dx2 to its potential in many cases and had a lot of custom modes and a setup that could change fast. I used it with fast AF lenses like the 200 f2, 24-70 II etc, and I guess the 1dx2 will be better with those, but with fast aperture lenses I don’t think the 1dx2 is any better, I think the R is better because of the super precise AF and anywhere in the frame.


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## yungfat (Jan 27, 2019)

Viggo said:


> Why I made the move is based on weight and cost and my hate for AF that doesn’t work over time, and it’s the reason why I have always upgraded my 1-series as soon as a new model is out, they start to miss more and more and the constant looking after and calibrating and it still doesn’t hit. And with the 1dx2 I treated like a baby in order to not knock anything out of alignment, yet when it began missing and I handed it in for a checkup they said that the sensor and some mirror assembly stuff was out of alignment, not covered by warranty. So it really annoys me when I read about how they’re built like tanks etc, every. single. 5-series and 1-series I’ve had, haf these issues. I shoot only the fastest primes with no dof so it shows immediately. I hate spend loads of time taking thousands of test shots to try an figure out how to fix it. The AF spread is a major reason why I switched. And I figured that spending 7500 USD on yet another body that is only good for 2-5 years is not going to happen when everything moves towards mirrorless.
> 
> So, freedom with AF in terms of how precise and where I can place it and the new RF50 was big reasons. And my health doesn’t like the heavy 1-series anymore. I had lower expectations for tracking my kids with the R, but it’s much better, even with the RF50 who really doesn’t match a 70-200 for example.
> 
> ...



Thanks Viggo for the sharing. 

So far do you notice any banding issue from your R?

Thank you.


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## yungfat (Jan 27, 2019)

Viggo said:


> Lovely shot!
> 
> I guess they are not comparable in some ways, and each have their strengths. Mirrorless like the R only has horizontal line sensitively, no cross type. Yet it’s way better to just nail focus, and when in Servo locked where both camera and subject is still the AF is 100% stable, often the DSLR’s still go a little bit back and forth.
> 
> ...



Hi Viggo, do you feel the all AF points off center are perform as good as the center one?

Thanks.


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## Viggo (Jan 27, 2019)

yungfat said:


> Hi Viggo, do you feel the all AF points off center are perform as good as the center one?
> 
> Thanks.


Yes.


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## Viggo (Jan 27, 2019)

yungfat said:


> Thanks Viggo for the sharing.
> 
> So far do you notice any banding issue from your R?
> 
> Thank you.


If I push pictures shot with flash, then there is some banding. But when I have absolute control over light and expose differently on subject and background there is never any need to push in post.

For shots shot without flash I haven’t seen any banding at all.


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## Valvebounce (Jan 27, 2019)

Hi Jack. 
Don’t forget to take your own memory media with you so that you can take the trial images home and play with them! 

Cheers, Graham. 



Jack Douglas said:


> Then it'll be a trip to the store to try it with some of my lenses.
> 
> Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 27, 2019)

Thanks Graham! I might have forgotten.

Viggo, what you are saying is that it is very good in many areas and can be described as a great overall camera. All cameras so far have their negatives like the 1DX2 is so heavy. I resisted buying into something that heavy. First I got a used 1D2, then a used 1D4 and finally decided I could live with the weight of the 1DX2, reluctantly. For big lenses the difference is not as great but for walk around general use the R is seriously better and an extra 10 MP is significant. Having said that, the general consensus is that smaller pixels yield more noise at higher ISOs and that concerns me a little.

It would be silly to imagine an R obsoletes a 1DX2 at this point but it seems the writing is on the wall ... but how soon.

I hope you will continue to post your hands on of the R since it's as valuable or more so than the reviews we see at some sites. 

Thanks for the complement on the bird but it's only posted to illustrate an open beak which to me is nicer than the closed one of a few milliseconds later. Bursts can be quite illuminating relative to understanding behaviour but so can video if the resolution and shutter speed are reasonably high.

Jack


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## Jethro (Jan 27, 2019)

yungfat said:


> By the way, do you notice any banding on your night photography? YouTube reviewer Tony Northrup reported that he got a very bad banding shoot from a random night photography.


I haven't noticed any in low light (I shoot a lot in natural light in low light situations not so much at night), so I doubt it will be noticeable except in extreme situations. If you look at other threads here, I think it is only being reported at very high ISO - so it may be something that can be worked around. Good luck in your final decision!


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## yungfat (Jan 27, 2019)

Viggo said:


> If I push pictures shot with flash, then there is some banding. But when I have absolute control over light and expose differently on subject and background there is never any need to push in post.
> 
> For shots shot without flash I haven’t seen any banding at all.



Thanks for sharing


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## yungfat (Jan 27, 2019)

Jethro said:


> I haven't noticed any in low light (I shoot a lot in natural light in low light situations not so much at night), so I doubt it will be noticeable except in extreme situations. If you look at other threads here, I think it is only being reported at very high ISO - so it may be something that can be worked around. Good luck in your final decision!



Thanks for sharing.


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## AlanF (Jan 28, 2019)

I am surprised that the 1DX2 is not rugged and has inconsistent AF. But Viggo has first hand knowledge and I don’t. My 5D cameras take a lot of hard use and they have very consistent spot on AF.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 28, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I am surprised that the 1DX2 is not rugged and has inconsistent AF. But Viggo has first hand knowledge and I don’t. My 5D cameras take a lot of hard use and they have very consistent spot on AF.



It somehow doesn't seem to make sense unless it could be applied in general to all cameras that Canon makes, like some shortcoming in the design of support structures or whatever. I used to view a photo on the computer and see the active AF point right where I wanted it but that particular location wasn't in sharp focus, and get worked up about it, but at this point I generally accept that focus takes time and sometimes the action is too fast. Maybe I'm just a fool who accepts crummy performance because I'm enamoured with Canon. I should have followed "what's his name" over to the Nikon camp.

One thing is that I generally use single spot focus on the shutter so in that case there is no help nearby but I have zone on the back button and often engage that if, for example, some flight is occurring.

Jack


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## privatebydesign (Jan 28, 2019)

I have owned 1VHS's, 1D's, a 1Ds MkII, 1Ds MkIII's and 1DX MkII's, I have taken them all around the world several times and never babied them, I only just got FoCal as it was on special offer at B&H and still haven't used it as I am out of the country, otherwise I have never 'calibrated' my lenses seriously, a few token test shots of printed scales at an angle don't really count! I have never had an AF issue that worried me that was body based and I shoot at f1.4 with one of Canon's most maligned lenses, especially for AF, often. 

I have had shutter failures, broken and misaligned lenses and I have dropped the various bodies on occasion, still never an AF issue, not saying others haven't, just that I don't believe it is a particularly common occurrence. But then I am not the kind of person to judge AF performance by the particular eyelash that is sharp, I value composition and content much more, anybody that doesn't needs to go see a Steve McCurry exhibition...


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 28, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> l I value composition and content much more, anybody that doesn't needs to go see a Steve McCurry exhibition...



Scratch that; everyone should see one. Period.

I think you and I have talked about how I happened upon one once in Prague when a tour I took literally ended in the gallery, and how I was so enthralled, and so disgusted by my own portfolio I thought about burning my equipment.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 28, 2019)

These comments make me feel really hopeless ... but I'm not giving up. No matter, it's fun and that counts too.

It would sure be fun/educational to tag along with those who know what they are doing!

Jack


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## Viggo (Jan 28, 2019)

I have very high demands regarding AF precision, or.. well, if the subject is less sharp than it should be I’m not happy, I don’t know how others feel about that. I pay insane amounts of money for a camera that is supposed to be the best there is and I pay insane amounts of money for the lenses that are sharpest at the largest apertures to really get that pop I love. So when it’s not properly focused I could might as well used a 85 f1.8 or a 50 f1.4, I don’t think that’s acceptable when I pay ten times that. All 1-series, apart from the 1d3 who actually got better with the constant repairs and fixes, have gone from really, really good to pretty useless in the 4-5 years I had them. Maybe I’ll say the same thing about the R in 4 years, I don’t know, but for now it’s way better.

But with the mirrorless every single shot is giving me those 30mp’s and the absolute most out of the sharpness I paid for in the RF50, consistent results with one attempt which has given me back the joy of photography. Kids faces at shortish focusing distances has always meant trouble, but now with face tracking or single point I can communicate with them by holding the camera and look at them not through the VF, I catch their smiles instead of their impatiens, I don’t have to cut off the feet when shooting full body in vertical etc etc etc.

I can shoot with confidence I never could before.

I’m hoping the rumored 100 f1.4 has really fast AF so I can put the R through some fast faction without worrying if it’s the lens or body that’s too slow. The RF50 is pretty fast, but not anywhere near a 70-200.


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## AlanF (Jan 28, 2019)

I also have very high demands on AF precision - needing to crop very heavily to see fine feather detail. I got the 5DIV and 5DSR as soon as they were released, and they have performed faultlessly since then with no deterioration in performance. You complain that then1D series deteriorate over 4-5 years, but you will have to wait and see if the R is the same in your hands.


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## Viggo (Jan 28, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I also have very high demands on AF precision - needing to crop very heavily to see fine feather detail. I got the 5DIV and 5DSR as soon as they were released, and they have performed faultlessly since then with no deterioration in performance. You complain that then1D series deteriorate over 4-5 years, but you will have to wait and see if the R is the same in your hands.


The R has a lot fewer things that can get misaligned though. And if it deteriorates in the same way, at least it worked better the time it did, and I only lose one third of the money spent


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## AlanF (Jan 28, 2019)

Viggo said:


> The R has a lot fewer things that can get misaligned though. And if it deteriorates in the same way, at least it worked better the time it did, and I only lose one third of the money spent


True, the depreciation is not so important when it's 66% cheaper! I tend to use my gear with the soft (silent) shutter mode, which may produce less deteroration from vibration? In the past when I had a 7D, focus was a bit hit and miss and I used to take several shots to find the sharpest ones. But with my favourite telephoto lenses from the newer ranges (400mm DO II and 100-400mm II), I take far too many shots of birds to get the best pose and spend far too much time looking for miniscule differences before culling - it's dfficult to break old habits, but I am cutting down from taking and then deleting identically sharp images.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 28, 2019)

I believe I have high expectations for AF too, that is why I spent $7,000 per 1DS MkIII rather than $3,000 for the relevant 5 series at the time, but I don't take that to extremes, I don't worry about what my image looks like at 100% on a 27" monitor if I am going to print it at 12" x 18". I don't care which eyelash is sharpest in an image that when printed all seem equally sharp, it's just too easy to obsess at insane and impractical magnification sizes.

Sure there will always be applications where that performance is needed/desired, Alan's example of bird plumage when heavily cropped is one, but I'd venture that in general that isn't the norm for the majority of users.


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## AlanF (Jan 28, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I believe I have high expectations for AF too, that is why I spent $7,000 per 1DS MkIII rather than $3,000 for the relevant 5 series at the time, but I don't take that to extremes, I don't worry about what my image looks like at 100% on a 27" monitor if I am going to print it at 12" x 18". I don't care which eyelash is sharpest in an image that when printed all seem equally sharp, it's just too easy to obsess at insane and impractical magnification sizes.
> 
> Sure there will always be applications where that performance is needed/desired, Alan's example of bird plumage when heavily cropped is one, but I'd venture that in general that isn't the norm for the majority of users.


Agreed!


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## privatebydesign (Jan 28, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Scratch that; everyone should see one. Period.
> 
> I think you and I have talked about how I happened upon one once in Prague when a tour I took literally ended in the gallery, and how I was so enthralled, and so disgusted by my own portfolio I thought about burning my equipment.


I remember you saying about it before, I don't remember that you were so impacted you thought to burn your gear! Glad you didn't


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## yungfat (Jan 28, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I also have very high demands on AF precision - needing to crop very heavily to see fine feather detail. I got the 5DIV and 5DSR as soon as they were released, and they have performed faultlessly since then with no deterioration in performance. You complain that then1D series deteriorate over 4-5 years, but you will have to wait and see if the R is the same in your hands.



Hi AlanF, just out of curiosity. 

Are you still using 5DSr after you bought the 5DIV?

Which provide better look in terms of colour?

Thanks.


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## AlanF (Jan 28, 2019)

yungfat said:


> Hi AlanF, just out of curiosity.
> 
> Are you still using 5DSr after you bought the 5DIV?
> 
> ...


The 5DSR is my camera of choice. Its significantly higher resolution makes up for its drawbacks vs the 5DIV for my uses as I use telephotos and are limited by reach. The AF is very good indeed, not quite as fast as the 5DIV but still fast enough. It's no noisier at iso 6400. Basically, the IQ of the bare 100-400mm II on the 5DSR is at least as good as the lens + 1.4xTC on the 5DIV, and is operated at f/5.6 instead of f/8. Also the 100-400mm II + 1.4xTC on the 5DSR if anything is sharper than the 400mm DO II + 2xTC on the 5DIV. As far as colour is concerned, I shoot in RAW and the colour makes little difference.


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## yungfat (Jan 29, 2019)

[QUOTE="It's no noisier at iso 6400.[/QUOTE]

Hi AlanF,
Thanks for the sharing. 
5DSr isn’t any noisier than 5DIV at ISO6400?
For most of the review I saw, it is way noisier above ISO3200 compare to 5D4. 
Just curious. 
Thanks.


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## Viggo (Jan 29, 2019)

yungfat said:


> [QUOTE="It's no noisier at iso 6400.



Hi AlanF,
Thanks for the sharing.
5DSr isn’t any noisier than 5DIV at ISO6400?
For most of the review I saw, it is way noisier above ISO3200 compare to 5D4.
Just curious.
Thanks.[/QUOTE]
I should definitely think so too. The eos R is quite a bit noisier than the 1dx2 also. Smaller pixels, more noise, I don’t think it’s any way around that when the sensor are from the same generation, and when then 5dsr is older, I don’t see how they would match. At least not on paper, if it’s visible in every shot isn’t as obvious.


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