# Sony FF NEX - competition is good. Canon?



## pharp (Sep 25, 2013)

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/nex-ff-is-said-to-be-competitively-priced/

The only probable downside - will it have any lenses available? (I'm assuming this will have interchangable ones). Thats one area where Sony really lags. A good UWA landscape prime and a nice walk around zoom might be a good start.


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## Dylan777 (Sep 25, 2013)

All I can say is, keep the body and lenses small as RX1. These will be flying off the shelves


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## pharp (Sep 25, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> All I can say is, keep the body and lenses small as RX1. These will be flying off the shelves



Agreed, and once an EOS to FF NEX adapter becomes available - they may really have a hit.


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## distant.star (Sep 25, 2013)

.
Wow. Canon activity has gone so dormant we're now discussing Sony rumors!

I think I'll stick with Canon.


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## AvTvM (Sep 25, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> All I can say is, keep the body and lenses small as RX1. These will be flying off the shelves



YES, but only IF ... product and price are "really right".
From the sounds of the rumor mill, Sony will come out with at least 2 mirrorless FF system cameras with FE-mount. ["*F*ull-Frame E-Mount]. 

If the lower-end model should really come without built-in (electronic) viewfinder and costs as much or even more as a Canon 6D / Nikon D600 ... plus cost of an add-on EVF [Sony charges $/€ 495,- for these] I do not expect it to sell well. Definitely not well enough to allow Sony to quickly build a nice lens line-up and system around it. 

Similar to the Sony RX-1 - a nice camera, but way too limited (fixed 35mm lens, no viewfinder, no lens mount!) and grossly overpriced at 3k. That thingie should be 999,- at the max in order to fly off the shelves. 

Nevertheless, I really look forward to Sony hopefully bringing mirrorless FF cameras to market soon, forcing Canon to come up with something *dramatically more interesting* than the EOS-M (no viewfinder, APS-C).


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## pharp (Sep 25, 2013)

I haven't seen any sales figures on the RX1, but the price is still (too) high so it must be selling up to expectations - right? This might also appeal to Leica users (with mount adapter and software) assuming the backplane is OK - has to be cheaper than an M9. It'll also be interesting to see if Fuji joins the FF fray. All good.


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## Dylan777 (Sep 25, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > All I can say is, keep the body and lenses small as RX1. These will be flying off the shelves
> ...



Keep on dreaming AvTvM


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## AvTvM (Sep 25, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> Keep on dreaming AvTvM



quite to the opposite: camera makers are really dreaming if they believe, many potential buyers of mirrorless system cameras are wiling to pay MORE for a CHEAPER to produce mirrorless camera compared to an equally capable DSLR. Apparently they have to learn this the hard way.


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## Dylan777 (Sep 25, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Keep on dreaming AvTvM
> ...



The price tag on RX1 is still $2800 - still selling like a hot cake


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## pharp (Sep 25, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



Don't you mean haute cakes :


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## tcmatthews (Sep 26, 2013)

There are three rumored E mount full frame cameras.

1) Entry level possibly without integrated View finder.
2) Nex 9 Slightly larger than current Nex7 and similar button layout.
3) E mount with DSLR shape possibly having an adjustable focus plan to have auto focus with non-Sony lens and in body 5 axis IS 

I have a nearly complete set of vintage lens that I have been using with my Nex 6. If the subject is not moving there are plenty of focusing tools built into Sony cameras to aid focus. (I find the focus peeking works better on Sony than with ML.)

These cameras in my opinion only make sense with small fairly compact primes. Is this a threat to canon no they will target different audiences. But I am likely buying one.


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## AvTvM (Sep 26, 2013)

tcmatthews said:


> These cameras in my opinion only make sense with small fairly compact primes. Is this a threat to canon no they will target different audiences. But I am likely buying one.



Mirrorless cameras are not only useful with small prime lenses. 

I am waiting for a fully-capable, ultra-compact FF-sensored mirrorless system camera as my one and only camera. Depending on subject and intention I'd take along a tiny pancake lens between 20mm/2.8 and 75mm/2.8 when I want to go light. And when I need a 70-200/2.8, 400/2.8 or TS-E 17/4 I would use those connected via adapter ring. Yes, the package will not be small and light any longer. But most of the time I´d be using it on a tripod, so it don't matter. And even without tripod, it would still be smaller and lighter than with a fully-capable DSLR. 

That's why I am hoping for a FF mirrorless sized like a Sony RX-1 [plus EVF "hump"], as capable as a 5D IV and priced like a Nikon D800. I'd prefer it to be from Canon due to existing investment in L glass and speedlites and because I like the Canon user-interface. BUT ... if Sony (or Nikon) come out first with such a FF mirrorless camera I will likely switch.


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## weixing (Sep 26, 2013)

distant.star said:


> .
> Wow. Canon activity has gone so dormant we're now discussing Sony rumors!
> 
> I think I'll stick with Canon.


Hi,
Me too... With my experience with Sony after sales service, I'll also stick with Canon.

Have a nice day.


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## Bob Howland (Sep 26, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Keep on dreaming AvTvM
> ...



And a perfectly competitive marketplace, with lots of sellers selling essentially identical goods and/or services, would teach them that rapidly. Unfortunately, we don't have a perfectly competitive marketplace.

Like you, I expect mirrorless FF cameras to largely replace DSLRs. There is, however, the question of delays and when they occur. With a mirrorless camera, there will always be a delay from when the event occurs until it appears on the EVF, a delay that does not occur with a DSLR. However, the DSLR has the delay caused by having to move the mirror, which the mirrorless camera eliminates. So, pick your poison.


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## Sella174 (Sep 26, 2013)

Canon is so far behind in technology that it just isn't funny anymore. I've said it before and I'll say it again ... the *EOS 100D* should have been a mirrorless camera (comparable to the Panasonic G3 and G5), the *EOS 70D* should have been a mirrorless camera (comparable to the Panasonic G6 and GH3, and the Olympus E-M5 and E-M1), and the *EOS 6D Mark II* _must_ be a full-frame mirrorless camera. Add to this that Canon is trying to sell the current crop of DSLR's, especially the 70D, to amateur videographers, but has absolutely nothing comparable to Olympus' (and now Sony's) 5-axis IBIS.

As an aside, what current mirrorless systems lack in terms of native lenses, they make good in support for the plethora of old, yet excellent, manual focus lenses.


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## hambergler (Sep 26, 2013)

Sella174 said:


> Canon is so far behind in technology that it just isn't funny anymore. I've said it before and I'll say it again ... the *EOS 100D* should have been a mirrorless camera (comparable to the Panasonic G3 and G5), the *EOS 70D* should have been a mirrorless camera (comparable to the Panasonic G6 and GH3, and the Olympus E-M5 and E-M1), and the *EOS 6D Mark II* _must_ be a full-frame mirrorless camera. Add to this that Canon is trying to sell the current crop of DSLR's, especially the 70D, to amateur videographers, but has absolutely nothing comparable to Olympus' (and now Sony's) 5-axis IBIS.
> 
> As an aside, what current mirrorless systems lack in terms of native lenses, they make good in support for the plethora of old, yet excellent, manual focus lenses.



If the EOS 6D Mark II went mirrorless than that would be pointless without a mount change and new lens lineup.

Putting an EF mount on a mirrorless camera adds a ridiculous amount of bulk which defeats the whole point of a mirrorless setup but to call it a 6D Mark II would make no sense to change mounts going from the Mk I -> Mk II.

The sony E mount makes sense because it has a 18mm flange distance vs 44mm for the EF mount.


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## Bob Howland (Sep 26, 2013)

hambergler said:


> If the EOS 6D Mark II went mirrorless than that would be pointless without a mount change and new lens lineup.
> 
> Putting an EF mount on a mirrorless camera adds a ridiculous amount of bulk which defeats the whole point of a mirrorless setup but to call it a 6D Mark II would make no sense to change mounts going from the Mk I -> Mk II.
> 
> The sony E mount makes sense because it has a 18mm flange distance vs 44mm for the EF mount.



The new FF lensmount could simply comprise shortening the distance from sensor plane to lens flange and introducing an adapter to take up the space, so that old lenses could still be used. As for the need for a new lens lineup, I somewhat agree with you, but, since the old lenses would still be usable, the new lineup can be introduced over several years. Hopefully the new lenses would be smaller than the old.

As for a name, how about "M6D"?


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## pharp (Sep 26, 2013)

Bob Howland said:


> hambergler said:
> 
> 
> > If the EOS 6D Mark II went mirrorless than that would be pointless without a mount change and new lens lineup.
> ...



I agree, but they could also (for some lenses anyway, especially the UWA) retain the EF mount and have the rear element protrude into the 'mirror'less box as was not uncommon before.


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## EchoLocation (Sep 27, 2013)

Sony has been one of my favorite electronics companies since I was a kid in the 80's because of their spirit of innovation and their willingness to make new exciting products. Sony was as cool or even cooler in the 80's than Apple is today.
I have owned a couple of Sony Cybershot cameras as P&S and was always pretty happy with their IQ and overall quality(this is before I bought my first DSLR, a Canon.)
I'm thrilled with the new FF rumors. I was very curious about the RX1, but settled for the EOS-M with 22mm for 10% of the cost, a choice I've been very happy with.
However, one of my main reasons for doing this was that I wanted to save money for the hopefully awesome FF mirrorless camera that is soon to be announced. I'm thinking of selling all my DSLR gear now and buying this camera if they can put the pieces together in to a solid overall camera with a few nice lens choices.
I am very tired of big, heavy DSLR's, and I am thrilled at the idea of downsizing to an EOS M and hopefully a similar size FF system!!!


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## Sella174 (Sep 27, 2013)

hambergler said:


> Putting an EF mount on a mirrorless camera adds a ridiculous amount of bulk which defeats the whole point of a mirrorless setup ...



I cannot agree with this reasoning, for the simple fact that current technology has made the mirror redundant.


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## 9VIII (Sep 28, 2013)

pharp said:


> Bob Howland said:
> 
> 
> > hambergler said:
> ...



That's actually a really good idea. They could sink the lens in 10mm without even switching back caps, and with the simple addition of a new back cap they could make the "flange distance" whatever they want, potentially eliminating the complicated retrofocus design in wide angle lenses.
It would be really cool to have a pancake recessed almost completely inside the camera body.


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## moreorless (Oct 5, 2013)

Sella174 said:


> Canon is so far behind in technology that it just isn't funny anymore. I've said it before and I'll say it again ... the *EOS 100D* should have been a mirrorless camera (comparable to the Panasonic G3 and G5), the *EOS 70D* should have been a mirrorless camera (comparable to the Panasonic G6 and GH3, and the Olympus E-M5 and E-M1), and the *EOS 6D Mark II* _must_ be a full-frame mirrorless camera. Add to this that Canon is trying to sell the current crop of DSLR's, especially the 70D, to amateur videographers, but has absolutely nothing comparable to Olympus' (and now Sony's) 5-axis IBIS.
> 
> As an aside, what current mirrorless systems lack in terms of native lenses, they make good in support for the plethora of old, yet excellent, manual focus lenses.



...and yet the Canon DSLR's are vastly outselling these mirrorless options. Personally I think Canon should look at something like Fuji's viewfinder, have an OVF that can convert to an EVF for video use. 

With the RX1 I think its a mistake to relate the amount of talk on the net to actual sales success, look at the Amazon sales rankings right now and its at #1804 where as the 6D is at #199.

To me the FF market just seems like it might be a tougher nut for mirrorless systems to crack for a number of reasons. I think your likely dealing with a much more demanding userbase in terms of both performance/handling and the expected lens lineup while also having to deal with more larger lenses. Would a 28-70mm F/4 lens and a 35mm F/2.8 prime get people excited on a FF DSLR system?

Dispite the hype that there mostly stealing DSLR sales I think the truth of smaller sensor mirrorless systems is that a lot of(maybe most of) there sales are being driven by compact upgraders, that's IMHO the reason growth is slowing as this new market reaches saturation. I think its going to be a tougher sell getting these kinds of users to buy FF, with ASPC/43 systems your looking at a much greater jump in sensor performance relatively to compacts without as much a jump in price.


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## Cali_PH (Oct 13, 2013)

So, latest rumors from that site:

- Official announcement due October 16th; potentially due out in December
- 2 models, A7 (24MP sensors, about $1700 US, $1998 w/kit 24-70) & A7r (36MP $2198 body only)
- New sensors; details not specific
- Interesting rumor that initial offering will include lens mounts for free (Canon, Nikon, Leica). If true, I'd guess manual focus only. Could be smart as there are few native lenses expected at launch.
- Focus peaking, eye AF, Wifi, 1/8000 shutter, weather sealed tiltable screen, no IBIS.

I gotta admit, if this thing performs well, I'll be tempted to try one out with my Canon lenses for landscape shots!


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## Albi86 (Oct 13, 2013)

I'm very intrigued. Apparently a couple of Zeiss primes as well as a 24-70/4 and a 70-200/4 should be announced in the same event. Not to mention that mirrorless means you can mount any lens you like - M-mount anyone?

The EOS-M and the MS Surface are the proof of what happens when you join the party too late. Hope other big players will step up their game. Nikon 1 system is also sort of agonizing at the moment.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 13, 2013)

Actually, the biggest downside is Sony's lack of owner support. Three months turnaround for repairs is not uncommon, two months is common.

No Pro Photographer who knows this would even consider a Sony. Sony is so much worse than Nikon that it actually makes Nikon look good.


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## Dylan777 (Oct 14, 2013)

Cali_PH said:


> So, latest rumors from that site:
> 
> - Official announcement due October 16th; potentially due out in December
> - 2 models, A7 (24MP sensors, about $1700 US, $1998 w/kit 24-70) & A7r (36MP $2198 body only)
> ...



The rumor pictures look good. They claimed AF is faster than RX1 - which is a plus. If body size is slightly bigger than RX1, I'm all in with 36MP, A7 R + Zeiss 50mm f1.4 to start. I would like to add 14, 16, or 17mm and 85mm zeiss to this compact system. I hope Fuji will release some FF retro soon. I LOVE-LOVE-LOVE the looks of X100s. 

I might end up keeping just one 5D III + 70-200 and/or 135L.


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