# How does the reveal of the final 7D2 specs make you feel?



## ahsanford (Sep 11, 2014)

We've finally seen what are believed to be the final 7D2 specs:
http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/09/canon-eos-7d-mark-ii-specifications-confirmed/

So there it is. It's Christmas morning, and you finally got to open your present after _ages_ of speculating. How are you feeling?

- A


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## Marsu42 (Sep 11, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> How are you feeling?



I feel excited/fine because it's exactly what I expect from Canon and it doesn't obsolete the cameras I have :->


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## ULFULFSEN (Sep 11, 2014)

who cares about the 7D MK2.... what about the 5D MK IV? ;D


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## ahsanford (Sep 11, 2014)

Marsu -- Agree. To try to do this without waves of questions to vet the usefulness vs. the value vs. the excitement vs. the fanboyism is a fool's errand, but I thought I'd try.

- A


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## Don Haines (Sep 11, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> We've finally seen what are believed to be the final 7D2 specs:
> http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/09/canon-eos-7d-mark-ii-specifications-confirmed/
> 
> So there it is. It's Christmas morning, and you finally got to open your present after _ages_ of speculating. How are you feeling?
> ...



It's a week before Christmas and we know we are getting a sweater from grandma... but we don't know what colour it will be or if it will fit...

I am happy to wait for the real announcement.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 11, 2014)

"In general, I am excited about the list of specs."


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## Marsu42 (Sep 11, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> Marsu -- Agree. To try to do this without waves of questions to vet the usefulness vs. the value vs. the excitement vs. the fanboyism is a fool's errand, but I thought I'd try.



Well, you should have been more precise when posting the poll options as in "In general, I am excited about the list of specs _because they're so good_" :->


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## RLPhoto (Sep 11, 2014)

How much better can you get a sports orientated cam to be? I mean, I'm no sports shooter but I'd imagine you would be at ISO 400 or higher most of the time to get some DOF and Up the Shutter Speed. ISO performance would be more important than DR in a cam like this. It has the most Advanced AF on paper ever on APS-C, It shoots as fast as a 1D4, it's much lighter than a 1D4, it has awesome Video DPAF and at a price point that's reasonable.

It by all means is a worthy successor to the 7D and will be the semi-pro sports cam to beat.


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## Random Orbits (Sep 11, 2014)

I remember when the 6D specs came out and people lambasted the 6D because it had fewer MPs, worse build quality than the 5DII, etc. Once people had a chance to try out the 6D, then they changed their minds and raved about its advantages over the *5DIII* (less noise, -3EV center point senitivity, etc.).

I'll wait for the reviews to roll in before passing judgement on the 7DII. Maybe the sensor is better than the 70D's like the 6D was compared the 5DIII... or maybe not. But none of those improvements are going to be represented by these types of spec lists.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 11, 2014)

They are about as expected, a few evolutionary improvements and the 70D sensor plus some firmware features.

The only thing that would be of interest to me is if the dual pixel autofocus is greatly improved so that its a alternative to phase detect for tracking.

I think Canon will show their best stuff next spring in the new FF models.

Still, I can see this camera as a good choice for bird photographers on a budget. The real usable raw high ISO in raw will likely be about 3200, maybe 4000. 

Canon gives High ISO capabilities for jpeg with lots of NR. That's not all bad, but its misleading. Nikon is more conservative and rates cameras close to their actual ISO.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 11, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> I remember when the 6D specs came out and people lambasted the 6D because it had fewer MPs, worse build quality than the 5DII, etc. Once people had a chance to try out the 6D, then they changed their minds and raved about its advantages over the *5DIII* (less noise, -3EV center point senitivity, etc.).



Certainly not me  ... for what it's worth, I think the 7d2 is a much better upgrade over the 7d1 than 5d2->6d was. And because it's Canon premium crop model, it might be spared the usual fw crippling like removing spot af 7d->70d.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2014)

Good specs, it will sell well. It certainly looks like the best action-oriented APS-C camera on the market today. 

I'm impressed with the 65 cross-type AF points.


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## sagittariansrock (Sep 11, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Good specs, it will sell well. It certainly looks like the best action-oriented APS-C camera on the market today.
> 
> I'm impressed with the 65 cross-type AF points.



+1. Question is will it be qualitatively better than the system used in the 5DIII/1D X?
I think having so many AF points in an APS-C format will make it amazing for tracking. 
Yeah, a great sports shooter.


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## ahsanford (Sep 11, 2014)

RLPhoto said:


> How much better can you get a sports orientated cam to be? I mean, I'm no sports shooter but I'd imagine you would be at ISO 400 or higher most of the time to get some DOF and Up the Shutter Speed. ISO performance would be more important than DR in a cam like this. It has the most Advanced AF on paper ever on APS-C, It shoots as fast as a 1D4, it's much lighter than a 1D4, it has awesome Video DPAF and at a price point that's reasonable.
> 
> It by all means is a worthy successor to the 7D and will be the semi-pro sports cam to beat.



I think there is a confluence of matters...


A belief or perception that Canon's sensors have been lacking to SoNikony on the MP and dynamic range front
Alpha-fanboys, i.e. young men who needs to have/be/believe/know they have the 'best' tech
A need for _non_-Alpha-fanboys to believe that 'their' company is highly innovative
The fact that the 7D is five years old and we'd all expect things to _categorically_ improve over five years time

...and you have a stew of different people with a beef -- legitimate or otherwise -- that Canon has only incrementally improved the bar when they have the time and ability to do much, much more.

I am far far far less concerned about Canon's innovation reputation or where it sits in some awesomeness pecking order. 

What I _am_ concerned is how five years can go buy and all we might see for it is a somewhat ported AF system, +2 fps, +2 MP, and perhaps a stop better (maybe 2?) of low light performance. I'm not disappointed so much as bummed at the lack of _'better' as a function of time_. 

I hope there is more on announcement day, quite honestly. A new feature, a great tech development, etc. -- we shall see.

- A


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## mackguyver (Sep 11, 2014)

It makes me feel angry and betrayed. Just kidding. In reality it makes me wonder if I want to go _back_ to crop. If it turns out to be a mini 1D X with decent IQ at ISO 3200 and below, I might have to give it a try. I liked the 7D a lot, but the performance at ISO 1600+ just didn't do it for me.


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## ahsanford (Sep 11, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Good specs, it will sell well. It certainly looks like the best action-oriented APS-C camera on the market today.
> 
> I'm impressed with the 65 cross-type AF points.



+1

Despite my rant about the lack of 'new', I admit the AF _alone_ is worth the upgrade. I felt the same way about the 5D2 --> 5D3 AF improvements. For current 7D users shooting sports and wildlife, their keeper rate should see a noticeable bump in the right direction. 

- A


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## dstppy (Sep 11, 2014)

Wait, where's the option for "I have an arbitrary bias and will threaten to move to Nikon, but, in reality I'm either not currently with Canon or would never buy/shoot in this price/spec range"?

Or was that "Laughable. On aggregate, these specs are a day late and a dollar short compared to what Canon's competitors are offering."

;D


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## ULFULFSEN (Sep 11, 2014)

the 7D MK2 will sure be a good camera for sport and wildlife photographer.
thought i don´t think it will sell as well as the 7D.

today there are way more options.

when the 7D was release people bought the 7D who did not really need sports/wildlife camera. i mean i bought one. 

i see smaller m43 cameras (like the X-T1) eat into the 7D market today.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Sep 11, 2014)

I still have hope that the sensor has better image quality than 70D, but coincidentally has the same number of megapixels. :


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## crashpc (Sep 11, 2014)

dstppy said:


> Wait, where's the option for "I have an arbitrary bias and will threaten to move to Nikon, but, in reality I'm either not currently with Canon or would never buy/shoot in this price/spec range"?
> 
> Or was that "Laughable. On aggregate, these specs are a day late and a dollar short compared to what Canon's competitors are offering."
> 
> ;D



This topic might be just about 7D II, but with the release of it, Canon pretty gives good hint on what will 750D and/or M3 look like. I´m looking at 7D II for this reason. I don´t give a duck about FPS and other stuff. Just Canon experience (I´m long term Canon user) and new HW/sensors. If they fail here, there is not likely to be any improvement for other APS-C models-


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## ahsanford (Sep 11, 2014)

dstppy said:


> Wait, where's the option for "I have an arbitrary bias and will threaten to move to Nikon, but, in reality I'm either not currently with Canon or would never buy/shoot in this price/spec range"?
> 
> Or was that "Laughable. On aggregate, these specs are a day late and a dollar short compared to what Canon's competitors are offering."
> 
> ;D



I voted 'what I was expecting' but I wanted to get a read of the most incendiary alpha-fanboys and DXO believers vs. the most dyed-in-the-wool Canon believers.

- A


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 11, 2014)

It is good to see they went full hog (most likely, granted the 7D had a lot of AF points, but none of them actually worked as well as any 1 series point, but I trust they went full 1 series quality this time) with the AF. It should be a total beast for reach/action (when not DR limited).

But I have a bad feeling it's just gonna be a slightly tweaked 70D sensor at best.

And 1080p? This cam is supposed to be good for 3-5 years. Soon they will be the only manufacturer without a high-reach 4k cam. A bit ironic that the day SanDisc goes on about the 4k revolution and introducing new 4k optimized cards, Canon comes out with 1080p again.

I kinda fear that JapaneseCanonFanGirlEmployees rumor that Canon has decided people are too locked in and since sales are not yet going horribly, that they can simply get away with knowingly releasing bodies behind other maker's specs.

Panny has 4k out already, rumor is that Nikon may introduce 4k next week. All the other makers have sensors that provide much better DR at low ISO.

Nothing in this cam seems likely to not have been able to have been released 2 years ago other than the new AF (which could've been 5D3/1DX AF 2 years ago). Unless they really did soup up the DPAF AF and it really is so fast that it can assist the phase AF and make the phase AF never miss anymore. That certainly would be something and quite a revolution.

For sensors and video I fear they have simply given up trying for the first case and have decided they'd rather let someone else steal sales away rather than dare cannibalize their own video products at the higher end. That all seems rather BlackBerry and Atari of them. Although I, perhaps foolishly now, still hold out hope that the 5D4 next year will have some updated sensor tech. It is just a bit of a shame to see them cripple out things like 4k video and so on and it leaves on worried that even if the 5D4 delivers 4k it will be crippled a bit and that no 1080p RAW will be allowed either. Canon just seems to a follower for the most part, if even. At least for their bodies.


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## distant.star (Sep 11, 2014)

.
Well, doctor, it makes me feel like when I was a child and mommy told me I was going to school and would have to stay away from her all day.


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## AvTvM (Sep 11, 2014)

it makes me feel ... "i told you so".
Another fairly minimal iteration of a mirrorslapper. So little progress after 5 years. Not even WiFi built in. :


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## jthomson (Sep 11, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> It makes me feel angry and betrayed. Just kidding. In reality it makes me wonder if I want to go _back_ to crop. If it turns out to be a mini 1D X with decent IQ at ISO 3200 and below, I might have to give it a try. I liked the 7D a lot, but the performance at ISO 1600+ just didn't do it for me.



+1. The spec tells you nothing about the IQ at ISO 1600. Need a review to see if it has improved to a useable level.


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## ahsanford (Sep 11, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> it makes me feel ... "i told you so".
> Another fairly minimal iteration of a mirrorslapper. So little progress after 5 years. Not even WiFi built in. :



Not to spar with a mirrorless fan (b/c I find mirrorless intriguing), but I don't see many Sony Alpha, Olympus, or Fuji wildlife or sports specialists. 

- A


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## ahsanford (Sep 11, 2014)

jthomson said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > It makes me feel angry and betrayed. Just kidding. In reality it makes me wonder if I want to go _back_ to crop. If it turns out to be a mini 1D X with decent IQ at ISO 3200 and below, I might have to give it a try. I liked the 7D a lot, but the performance at ISO 1600+ just didn't do it for me.
> ...



+100

We have no idea what the low light capabilities are. ISO limits are not reflective of noise levels.

My guess is: one stop improvement over the 7D will see many folks get angry (it's been five years!), two stops will have them say "ok, it's an improvement" and three will have them jumping for joy. 

My friend is a diehard 7D user who wants the 7D2 ISO 3200 shots to be as clean as his ISO 800 shots are today. That's a reasonable expectation to me.

- A


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## dstppy (Sep 11, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > Wait, where's the option for "I have an arbitrary bias and will threaten to move to Nikon, but, in reality I'm either not currently with Canon or would never buy/shoot in this price/spec range"?
> ...



You know, people complained about the 60D . . . then complained that the 5D mk 2 took too much time to replace, but honestly, though they didn't have 'it all', they were good cameras. 

Now we've got a 70D (which is a true successor to a 50D, even from the complainers), the 7Dmk2, 5Dmk3, and 1Dx . . . the only tradeoffs are price. Big Fat Hairy Deal. I got my 5Dmk3 for around $2600 with an aftermarket warranty . . . 

Assuming Nikon's stuff is about as good as Canons (or better if you believe some), we've got the best choice of cameras with the fewest drawbacks ever . . . I think people just like to complain.


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## Besisika (Sep 11, 2014)

At this time, I am interested in 4K+Dual-pixel CMOS AF
However, if the combination DO 400mm F4 + 7D II works well in outdoor daylight sport I might consider it and put my need for 4k aside for now.
I am anxious to see how it works with the Tammy, if the DO is out of my reach. 
So, not all doors are closed. It depends on how it performs.
If price is under 2K CAD, I might buy one for my nephew.


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## troppobash (Sep 11, 2014)

[/quote]

You know, people complained about the 60D . . . then complained that the 5D mk 2 took too much time to replace, but honestly, though they didn't have 'it all', they were good cameras. 

Now we've got a 70D (which is a true successor to a 50D, even from the complainers), the 7Dmk2, 5Dmk3, and 1Dx . . . the only tradeoffs are price. Big Fat Hairy Deal. I got my 5Dmk3 for around $2600 with an aftermarket warranty . . . 

Assuming Nikon's stuff is about as good as Canons (or better if you believe some), we've got the best choice of cameras with the fewest drawbacks ever . . . I think people just like to complain.

[/quote]

+ 10


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## bcflood (Sep 11, 2014)

I am interested in seeing the reviews. It will be interesting to see how well it does when compared to the 70D and Nikon's offerings. 

I had thought they might announce the Rebel T6i at Photokina. I am curious what sensor it will see since the current 18MP one is so long overdue for replacement and the next step up would put it in competition with the 70D (minus the other bells and whistles of course).


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## crashpc (Sep 11, 2014)

Exactly! OMG we have that 18Mpx sensor in lowest model. Does Canon want to pretend that two more megapixels and some AF upgrades and circuity for these is normal after 5 or more like nearly 8 years of that sensor tech birth?, DOH....


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## ULFULFSEN (Sep 11, 2014)

crashpc said:


> Exactly! OMG we have that 18Mpx sensor in lowest model. Does Canon want to pretend that two more megapixels and some AF upgrades and circuity for these is normal after 5 or more like nearly 8 years of that sensor tech birth?, DOH....



canon is not about invention. these times are long gone.

and no... on sensor PDAF was not first in a canon.


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## mackguyver (Sep 11, 2014)

ULFULFSEN said:


> crashpc said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly! OMG we have that 18Mpx sensor in lowest model. Does Canon want to pretend that two more megapixels and some AF upgrades and circuity for these is normal after 5 or more like nearly 8 years of that sensor tech birth?, DOH....
> ...


Yes, Canon is only in the top 5 of companies awarded U.S. patents each year. They don't invent at all. And yes, Nikon had the PDAF in the J1/V1 first, but how well did those sell??? Besides the 70D's dual pixel AF is far more advanced than sticking some PDAF sensors on a sensor (like Apple is now doing).

I think you might want to give Canon a bit more credit.


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## crashpc (Sep 11, 2014)

ULFULFSEN said:


> crashpc said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly! OMG we have that 18Mpx sensor in lowest model. Does Canon want to pretend that two more megapixels and some AF upgrades and circuity for these is normal after 5 or more like nearly 8 years of that sensor tech birth?, DOH....
> ...



Don´t think so. How about lenses? STM, M mount, nothing? They do good stuff, they do innovations, they just excluded their sensor. Doesn´t make sense.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2014)

ULFULFSEN said:


> canon is not about invention. these times are long gone .
> 
> and no... on sensor PDAF was not first in a canon.



No, it wasn't. But...do you understand the fundamental differences between on-sensor PDAF and dual-pixel AF?

The former requires some areas of the image sensor to be dedicated to PDAF, meaning those areas must be filled in by interpolation from neighboring pixels. Of necessity, those on-sensor PDAF points are limited in number. 

DPAF uses every pixel covering 80% of the image sensor, no image data are lost, no interpolation is required, and on that 20 MP sensor you have *16 million* AF points. 

The 'lack of innovation' is a DRone war cry. What they really mean is that Canon hasn't developed the specific thing they are asking for, the myriad of other innovations don't count for anything. Doesn't matter that only a tiny minority of people are asking for that feature, if it's not the specific feature they want, Canon isn't innovating. Sheesh.


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## Dylan777 (Sep 11, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> It makes me feel angry and betrayed. Just kidding. In reality it makes me wonder if I want to go _back_ to crop. If it turns out to be a mini 1D X with decent IQ at ISO 3200 and below, I might have to give it a try. I liked the 7D a lot, but the performance at ISO 1600+ just didn't do it for me.



Me too ;D

I'm going to sit tight and stand by for 1DX II :


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## FEBS (Sep 11, 2014)

This camera is for sure that what I expected and even a little more.

In good light the 7D is a good performer. However, once you used the AF of the 5D3 or the 1Dx, you see the differences over there. My major issue with the 7D currently is the AF working compared to the 5D3 or the 1Dx. With the last 2, an out of focus picture is rare. The 7D it's AF, which is much better as older APS-C cameras of canon, can't get the same keeper rate as the 5D3 or the 1Dx. To me this new released specification shows at least the same level, and even a probably better AF system compared to the 1Dx. So that's marvelous.

The rest of the spec is what I really expected. Of course the 10fps makes this camera even more attractive to me. 

I know some would have expected an increased video performance. I'm glad that Canon really focused this camera as a solution for a APS-C body for sports and wildlife. So I'm very happy they didn't add a lot of specifications for the video users. Please don't understand me wrong, canon might build a body for that area, but the 7D was and will, as the current spec shows, stay an action camera. Speed and accuracy are really important here. 

As a sport shooter I will not miss a touchscreen, a turnable and swivable LCD, wifi,....

Low light possibility is a good step forwards compared to the old 7D. Even if it is quite the same sensor as the 70D. I have seen several pictures of a friend out of his 70D, and must honestly tell you I can't get them out of the 7D due to the noise. If even the noise of the 7D2 might be a little step better then the 70D, for instance caused by dual processor power, then also this would be a step forward. I agree, not as much as some expected, but you never can get the noise level of a FF out of an APS-C. Let that be clear. So all the wishful thinking of iso improvement of 2 or even more steps, or being better then a FF is impossible. The difference of noise level between a 70D and a Sony sensor is not that big, and is currently for sure actual. 

So this sensor, combined with the other features, and for sure the new AF and the 10fps makes a great, challenging camera for the action shooter. I don't know yet anything about the new AF system performance, but I think that the 1Dx (better on low light) and the 7D2 (perhaps even better on tracking and focusing) might be real competitors. The only other performing camera in this area is the D4s according me. I'm curious to see the first previews of this camera. I'm also waiting to get the right € price and availability, because I want to exchange my 7D with this new action challenger quickly !!!


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## mackguyver (Sep 11, 2014)

Dylan777 said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > It makes me feel angry and betrayed. Just kidding. In reality it makes me wonder if I want to go _back_ to crop. If it turns out to be a mini 1D X with decent IQ at ISO 3200 and below, I might have to give it a try. I liked the 7D a lot, but the performance at ISO 1600+ just didn't do it for me.
> ...


I hear you - I'm still madly in love with my 1D X ;D - though it gained a somewhat unsightly growth yesterday in the form of a GP-E1... which I sure hope will works with the 1DX II as well...


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## MichaelHodges (Sep 11, 2014)

FEBS said:


> In good light the 7D is a good performer. However, once you used the AF of the 5D3 or the 1Dx, you see the differences over there.



It's not just the AF. It's also the sensor. And, IMHO, a camera that only works well in "good light" is not a wildlife camera.



> Even if it is quite the same sensor as the 70D. I have seen several pictures of a friend out of his 70D, and must honestly tell you I can't get them out of the 7D due to the noise.



Agreed. The 70D sensor is significantly better than the 7D.


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## jocau (Sep 11, 2014)

I actually don't really care anymore, because lately I've been looking at the mirrorless options from Fuji (X-T1) and Sony (A7). But I'm expecting the same, rather poor dynamic range at low ISO for the 7DII which we, Canon users, all know too well.


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## jrista (Sep 11, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> DPAF uses every pixel covering 80% of the image sensor, no image data are lost, no interpolation is required, and on that 20 MP sensor you have *16 million* AF points.



That's actually not true, and I'm pretty sure you know that. You need multiple DPAF pixels to be able to properly detect a phase differential, just like the strips in a dedicated PDAF sensor are made up of multiple pixels in strait or diagonal lines. 

You don't actually have 16 million AF points. No one (outside of Canon anyway) really knows exactly how DPAF works...for all we know, that 80% of the sensor might simply act as one giant line sensor. Based on reviews about the Cinema EOS line after they were upgraded with DPAF, that is exactly how it's described, as "A" focus point...not "many" focus points. The C300 reviews also indicated that the DPAF focus point only really works properly when the subjects are largely centered in the frame...in the periphery, it doesn't work as well. One review also recommended switching to manual focus after acquiring the initial subject lock...so, there certainly seems room to grow for DPAF.


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## ts636 (Sep 11, 2014)

As a sports shooter the 3 main things I was hoping for from the 7d Mk2 were a top notch autofocus system, more frames per second and better high ISO performance. It looks like I may have got them all. Time and the first reviews will tell. As long as the price is reasonable I think I'll be having one.


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## ahsanford (Sep 11, 2014)

crashpc said:


> Exactly! OMG we have that 18Mpx sensor in lowest model. Does Canon want to pretend that two more megapixels and some AF upgrades and circuity for these is normal after 5 or more like nearly 8 years of that sensor tech birth?, DOH....



Professional photographers and crazy sports/birding/wildlife enthusiasts -- who this camera is being made for -- care far less about pixel counts than you do. Resolution matters, but low light performance, burst, AF and build quality matter as well.

I'm not defending Canon here (the spec list is 'sensibly better' but not earth-shaking), but if I was a current Canon 7D user, the new 7D2 would offer the following improvements:


A world class AF system on many levels
10 fps
A very nice video option that should roundly satisfy casual video people: all sorts of video AF options for those who are not comfortable with manual focusing
Some amount of low light improvement. As said before, we don't know how much, but it's been five years...

And that's worth $1500-2000 to them, I am certain of that.

Consider the alternatives:


Migrate to the competitive similar option: Nikon D7100 and all new lenses. Someone run the numbers for me on that, assuming you have to replace 3-4 lenses. I'm guessing you'd be paying the equivalent of 1DX body money to get a better (?) camera. Fail. No one will do this other than those that like to burn money.
Migrate to Canon full frame and need a fair amount pricier new lenses to recoup the length you've lost. A lot of shooters make that jump at some point in their lives, but 'reach' shooters are somewhat hosed here. if you were shooting a 100-400L or 300L prime on a 7D, reproducing that length in FF terms without needing a teleconverter is a massive inflection point for cost.
Leave SLRs behind and pick up a cool/small/impressive Sony, Fuji or Olympus mirrorless rig. If you leave a sophisticated tool like a 7D for mirrorless, _you probably didn't need the 7D in the first place._ I am not knocking mirrorless, not at all -- I just think the 7D is a birding/wildlife/sports camera and mirrorless is many things... but it _isn't_ a birding/wildlife/sports platform.

Again, I'm not defending Canon so much as state that in _this specific segment in this specific need _(flagship-level crop body, reach shooters, supertele owners, etc.), Canon will not lose a soul here unless they do something absolutely idiotic with price. 

- A


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 11, 2014)

jrista said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > DPAF uses every pixel covering 80% of the image sensor, no image data are lost, no interpolation is required, and on that 20 MP sensor you have *16 million* AF points.
> ...



Bear with me for a second. On a standard PDAF unit, there are discreet lines of pixels making up individual AF points. On DPAF (lovely similarity between acronyms), there aren't discrete lines of pixels, there is a grid of pixels. 

Say it takes 3 adjacent pixels (random number, I'm sure it's far more) to constitute a line. If I have 10 adjacent pixels, I have 8 lines. My number of lines is limited by the borders.

Scale that up. 

Given the total 20-ish megapixels and however many are necessary to constitute functioning lines, is it impossible that there are 16 million locations in which phase can be detected?



ULFULFSEN said:


> canon is not about invention. these times are long gone.



To that point... out of curiosity, if Canon followed Nikon's lead and started purchasing sensors from a third party vendor and instantly made up the low-iso-DR and resolution gaps, would that constitute innovation/invention?


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## FEBS (Sep 11, 2014)

MichaelHodges said:


> In good light the 7D is a good performer. However, once you used the AF of the 5D3 or the 1Dx, you see the differences over there.
> 
> It's not just the AF. It's also the sensor.



No no. *The AF *compared in good light between 7D and on the other hand 5D3 or 1Dx is always in the advantage for the last ones. The AF of the 7D does really not get the same level of accuracy as the other 2. That has nothing to do with the sensor at that moment but purely with the AF sensor. Of course the pictures of the 5D3 and 1Dx look really better compared to the 7D, and of course this is not only caused by better AF but even mainly by FF sensor which gathers more light compared a ASP-C.



> And, IMHO, a camera that only works well in "good light" is not a wildlife camera.


 I agree, wildlife asks for pictures early and late on the day, so light conditions are not that good. So the wildlife camera to beat is the 1Dx, however now with the better 70D sensor inside, a 7D2 might do it well but can't reach of course the 1Dx at lower light conditions.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2014)

jrista said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > DPAF uses every pixel covering 80% of the image sensor, no image data are lost, no interpolation is required, and on that 20 MP sensor you have *16 million* AF points.
> ...



Technically true, but any point can be the center of that line (well...to forestall the next nit being picked, _almost_ any point, but not the points at or near the edges of the active DPAF area). It's not 'one giant line sensor', as I'm sure you know. The other big advantage is the 'length' of the sensor line used for PDAF can be matched to the max aperture of the mounted lens to yield the optimal accuracy for that aperture. 




jrista said:


> Based on reviews about the Cinema EOS line after they were upgraded with DPAF, that is exactly how it's described, as "A" focus point...not "many" focus points. The C300 reviews also indicated that the DPAF focus point only really works properly when the subjects are largely centered in the frame...in the periphery, it doesn't work as well. One review also recommended switching to manual focus after acquiring the initial subject lock...so, there certainly seems room to grow for DPAF.



As for the upgraded Cinema EOS cameras, you seem to be making a flawed assumption that the portion of the sensor used for DPAF is similar for those two very different cameras. It's 80% of the sensor for the 70D, but only the central 20% of the image vertically and 25% horizontally for the upgraded C300. It only works in the center because the DPAF active area is only in the center. Interesting that the review you mention says DPAF 'doesn't work as well in the periphery' – how does it work there _at all_, when Canon states that it's only in the middle of the frame??


----------



## transpo1 (Sep 11, 2014)

No 4K or RAW so disappointed but not surprised- I'm curious to see if there are any features Canon tries to push as video upgrades besides dual pixel...an included intervalometer is cool for us filmmakers.


----------



## AccipiterQ (Sep 11, 2014)

Posted this in another thread, sums up how I feel: 

I shoot wildlife/sports/action photography. I use a T2i right now when I'm shooting with a crop. Know why? My glass is all Canon. If it wasn't for that I'd have switched. The 70D offers absolutely no improvement in image quality over the T2i. It's the same flippin sensor, just using new technologies to squeeze a .001% image quality improvement out of it. Now this is coming out with the SAME F'ING SENSOR. The sensor is about 80% of the reason you'd buy a camera, once you choose your subject matter. The 7Dii is going to be a glorified T2i. Same old ancient sensor technology, with a few useless bells & whistles, none of which get down to the root: THEY HAVEN'T MADE A SINGLE INNOVATION IN SENSOR TECHNOLOGY IN YEARS. It's the same mediocre sensor, just rehashed. This is why they're starting to, or will continue to lose market share to other companies. Absolutely insane that it took a half decade to refresh, and it's basically going to be the exact same camera with the exact same sensor, just with a tiiiiny bit extra squeezed out of that sensor. Absolute garbage. I can't tell you how pissed off I am right now.


----------



## FEBS (Sep 11, 2014)

[quote author=AccipiterQ ]
[/quote]

Will tell you here the same as on the other thread man!!!

Don't let me laugh. The reason you bought a T2i as a camera for wildlife/sports/action photography is for sure NOT the sensor. *Be honest, it was the price*. 

What a thought that the sensor would be 80% responsible for the purchase of such a camera. If sensor quality would be that important to you, then you would have bought a 1-series. Nothing else. What a bullsh_t you are telling here. And what about the 5D3 sensor? No progress made?

As a wildlife/sports/action photographer you are not interested in those fps, 65 crosspoints AF, f8, ... ? You really make me laugh man, don't call yourself a action photographer if you are only interested in the highest quality sensor.

If you have that good Canon glass, then simple do buy a 1Dx and stop complaining and stop telling such a nonsense !!!


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 11, 2014)

AccipiterQ said:


> Posted this in another thread, sums up how I feel:
> 
> I shoot wildlife/sports/action photography. I use a T2i right now when I'm shooting with a crop. Know why? My glass is all Canon. If it wasn't for that I'd have switched. The 70D offers absolutely no improvement in image quality over the T2i. It's the same flippin sensor, just using new technologies to squeeze a .001% image quality improvement out of it. Now this is coming out with the SAME F'ING SENSOR. The sensor is about 80% of the reason you'd buy a camera, once you choose your subject matter. The 7Dii is going to be a glorified T2i. Same old ancient sensor technology, with a few useless bells & whistles, none of which get down to the root: THEY HAVEN'T MADE A SINGLE INNOVATION IN SENSOR TECHNOLOGY IN YEARS. It's the same mediocre sensor, just rehashed. This is why they're starting to, or will continue to lose market share to other companies. Absolutely insane that it took a half decade to refresh, and it's basically going to be the exact same camera with the exact same sensor, just with a tiiiiny bit extra squeezed out of that sensor. Absolute garbage. I can't tell you how pissed off I am right now.



I hear you, I do. But let me understand the train of thought:

T2i = 18 MP sensor
70D = 20.2 MP sensor (absolutely _*not*_ the same sensor)

However, at least for noise, I do agree there isn't much difference between the two:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Comparisons/Canon-EOS-Rebel-T2i-550D-Digital-SLR-Camera.aspx

But that's the T2i vs. the _70D_. Just because the new 7D2 sensor is 20.2 MP doesn't mean that it's the same one.

Again, we don't know the low light performance of this new sensor. Unless we have confirmation from an interview with a Chuck Westfall that it is in fact the same (not gonna happen) or a teardown that it's the same component (and I'm sure there's more to it than just the sensor itself), we don't know what we're dealing with here. Sensor performance is not something a spec sheet will tell us. So we have to let the Bryan Carnathans of the world shoot the samples with the 7D2 (like the ones I linked) and then we'll know for sure.

But yeah, if I was in the market for a new APS-C body, the name 7D2 alone isn't enough to get my money -- especially based on Canon's APS-C sensor track record. I would want to see reviews, specifically noise information.

- A


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## AccipiterQ (Sep 12, 2014)

FEBS said:


> [quote author=AccipiterQ ]



Will tell you here the same as on the other thread man!!!

Don't let me laugh. The reason you bought a T2i as a camera for wildlife/sports/action photography is for sure NOT the sensor. *Be honest, it was the price*. 

What a thought that the sensor would be 80% responsible for the purchase of such a camera. If sensor quality would be that important to you, then you would have bought a 1-series. Nothing else. What a bullsh_t you are telling here. And what about the 5D3 sensor? No progress made?

As a wildlife/sports/action photographer you are not interested in those fps, 65 crosspoints AF, f8, ... ? You really make me laugh man, don't call yourself a action photographer if you are only interested in the highest quality sensor.

If you have that good Canon glass, then simple do buy a 1Dx and stop complaining and stop telling such a nonsense !!!
[/quote]

I bought the T2i several years ago when I first needed a crop and wanted to cut my teeth. The 5D3 isn't a crop, it's FF.


----------



## AccipiterQ (Sep 12, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> AccipiterQ said:
> 
> 
> > Posted this in another thread, sums up how I feel:
> ...



I should have clarified, my biggest beef is with noise. I can be standing next to someone shooting a Nikon and they're at IS01600, meanwhile I'm at 200 because even 400 starts to show way too much noise. I'm thinking it's the same sensor (at least tech wise) since it's the EXACT same mp amount. VERY fishy. I guess we'll see


----------



## Dylan777 (Sep 12, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> it makes me feel ... "i told you so".
> Another fairly minimal iteration of a mirrorslapper. So little progress after 5 years. Not even WiFi built in. :



You call that "Another fairly minimal iteration of a mirrorslapper" ?

I wonder what kinda camera you shooting with?


----------



## Dylan777 (Sep 12, 2014)

AccipiterQ said:


> Posted this in another thread, sums up how I feel:
> 
> I shoot wildlife/sports/action photography. I use a T2i right now when I'm shooting with a crop. Know why? My glass is all Canon. If it wasn't for that I'd have switched. The 70D offers absolutely no improvement in image quality over the T2i. It's the same flippin sensor, just using new technologies to squeeze a .001% image quality improvement out of it. Now this is coming out with the SAME F'ING SENSOR. The sensor is about 80% of the reason you'd buy a camera, once you choose your subject matter. The 7Dii is going to be a glorified T2i. Same old ancient sensor technology, with a few useless bells & whistles, none of which get down to the root: THEY HAVEN'T MADE A SINGLE INNOVATION IN SENSOR TECHNOLOGY IN YEARS. It's the same mediocre sensor, just rehashed. This is why they're starting to, or will continue to lose market share to other companies. Absolutely insane that it took a half decade to refresh, and it's basically going to be the exact same camera with the exact same sensor, just with a tiiiiny bit extra squeezed out of that sensor. Absolute garbage. I can't tell you how pissed off I am right now.


How much $$$ did you put into Canon lenses? If you think Canon is "Absolute garbage", then why not switch to another brand?


----------



## Random Orbits (Sep 12, 2014)

Dylan777 said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > it makes me feel ... "i told you so".
> ...



I think he's still using the 7D and M.


----------



## beforeEos Camaras (Sep 12, 2014)

AccipiterQ said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > AccipiterQ said:
> ...



noise? really I truly find these camera's truly amazing. compare image with tri x pushed to 1000 iso yes black and white that sir is noise. my first camera was the ftb-n with a 1.8 sc lens and a stop range of 1.8 to 16


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## scyrene (Sep 12, 2014)

jocau said:


> I actually don't really care anymore, because lately I've been looking at the mirrorless options from Fuji (X-T1) and Sony (A7). But I'm expecting the same, rather poor dynamic range at low ISO for the 7DII which we, Canon users, all know too well.



Yawn. If this is an action camera, as most suggest, then low-ISO DR is way down the list of what's important. Landscape photographers should look elsewhere.


----------



## pdirestajr (Sep 12, 2014)

Wait! Where is the 1D style top?????? That does it for me, I'm switching to Samsung.


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## jrista (Sep 12, 2014)

scyrene said:


> jocau said:
> 
> 
> > I actually don't really care anymore, because lately I've been looking at the mirrorless options from Fuji (X-T1) and Sony (A7). But I'm expecting the same, rather poor dynamic range at low ISO for the 7DII which we, Canon users, all know too well.
> ...



And what about action photographers? Is limited DR ok for them? Is the 2+ stops DR improvement achieved by the A7s irrelevant? It isn't just a low ISO game anymore. DR has been improved across the board, top to bottom, high to low, in Sony's sensors. Canon no longer has the lead at high ISO. The lead they once enjoyed was marginal at best as well. At high ISO, it isn't even so much about "recovery"...your still generally 'limited' (using the word very loosely) to about *9 stops* on an A7s at *ISO 51200*, which is largely going to fit within the dynamic range of modern screens. The major difference with the A7s is the massive increase to SNR...it's about double or so compared to even the vaunted 1D X, on top of the huge DR increase (6.6 stops 1D X, 8.8 stops A7s, at ISO 51200). THAT is HUGE for high ISO IQ. Massively huge. It means a literal one-stop or greater improvement in noise, which I didn't even think was possible (and I still don't know how they did it....other than the fact that their sensor just seems to suck up light like it was candy.)


----------



## Xero (Sep 12, 2014)

NO TOUCHSCREEN. OK..... HOW DOES THE DPAF WORK? How do we pick focal points? Why have it at all? No flippable lcd? Why? If you don't like it you don't have to move it.... Um a headphone jack, thats a plus except it should have been in EVERY camera from DAY 1. Sensor improvements or not, was hoping for a bridge from 70d to Mk3, what I got was a boat with no oars stuck up a shitty creek.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2014)

Xero said:


> HOW DOES THE DPAF WORK? How do we pick focal points?



*EYE CONTROLLED AF!!!*.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 12, 2014)

Xero said:


> NO TOUCHSCREEN. OK..... HOW DOES THE DPAF WORK? How do we pick focal points?



Same way you do with most every Canon SLR, I imagine. I doubt each one will be selectable; rather they'll be used to assist tracking (when you wouldn't be selecting anyway).


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 12, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> ULFULFSEN said:
> 
> 
> > crashpc said:
> ...



Many patents are useless. And what good is a useful patent if the CEOs won't let them build new fabs that enable them to produce sensors using the patents or if marketing says we need to hold it all back for the future?


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## jrista (Sep 12, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > ULFULFSEN said:
> ...



I think Don is probably right on the fab situation. Canon could save a bundle by letting P&S sensor load wind down, then they could shift larger format sensors over to that existing fab. The P&S market contracted over 30% last year alone, though...so you would figure they would already have some free capacity. 

I really hope Chipworks tears the 7D II apart and figures out whats REALLY inside it...I want to know exactly, with certainty, what kind of process and fundamental design Canon is using.


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## ahsanford (Sep 12, 2014)

Woohoo! 100+ responses to the poll!

Nice work, everyone.

- A


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> he major difference with the A7s is the massive increase to SNR...it's about double or so compared to even the vaunted 1D X, on top of the huge DR increase (6.6 stops 1D X, 8.8 stops A7s, at ISO 51200). THAT is HUGE for high ISO IQ. Massively huge. It means a literal one-stop or greater improvement in noise, which I didn't even think was possible (and I still don't know how they did it....other than the fact that their sensor just seems to suck up light like it was candy.)



To be fair, the 6D scores, using NORMALIZED  ;D results (I will give you that you are not a fanboy though as you stick to no normalization for DR whether it makes any particular brand look better or worse, but I think if you looked at normalized results you might be a touch less puzzled over how they pulled it off, because, IMO, SONY didn't really pull off something to the degree you think they did in this case) gives 6.93 at ISO51,200 and Sony A7S gives 8.19 so the difference is 1.26 stops not 2.2 stops (which, maybe you'll agree is an improvement that is easier to fathom, it's still a nice improvement though, 1.26 stops is hardly nothing and compared to the 5D3 we are talking 6.29 vs 8.19 or 1.9 stops, a pretty decent bit more. So it has like 2 stops better DR at very high ISO and about the same at low ISO (it actually fairs a bit poorly compared to other Exmor sensors for low ISO DR though). It's large pixels make the grain larger than the 6D or 5D3 though.

Also, I think you accidentally used the 21,560 info instead of 51,200?? Not that it matters.


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## Steve (Sep 12, 2014)

AccipiterQ said:


> I should have clarified, my biggest beef is with noise. I can be standing next to someone shooting a Nikon and they're at IS01600, meanwhile I'm at 200 because even 400 starts to show way too much noise. I'm thinking it's the same sensor (at least tech wise) since it's the EXACT same mp amount. VERY fishy. I guess we'll see



Wait. What? You're shooting sports at 200? Ok first thing - those dudes are shooting 1600 because no one really cares about noise for sports. Freeze the action, in focus, get a face and a ball and worry about noise some other day. Second, I've shot a lot with a 40D and 7D and yeah they get noisy but not really noticeably bad until 800 at least. I gotta wonder if you might be expecting too much. Also, are you shooting with short lenses and cropping real deep? Because that'll amplify noise like crazy.


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## jrista (Sep 12, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > he major difference with the A7s is the massive increase to SNR...it's about double or so compared to even the vaunted 1D X, on top of the huge DR increase (6.6 stops 1D X, 8.8 stops A7s, at ISO 51200). THAT is HUGE for high ISO IQ. Massively huge. It means a literal one-stop or greater improvement in noise, which I didn't even think was possible (and I still don't know how they did it....other than the fact that their sensor just seems to suck up light like it was candy.)
> ...



I was going off of this data:

http://sensorgen.info/SonyA7S.html
http://sensorgen.info/CanonEOS-1D_X.html

DXO's site is EXCESSIVELY slow for me these days...it takes forever for each page to load, and then, when they do, you have to wait longer for the tabs to organize properly so you can click on them. So I pretty much rely on sensorgen.info's data these days...which is where I got the 8.8 stops DR and twice the signal power for the A7s:

1DX ISO 51200: Max Signal 163e-, RN 1.7e-, DR 6.6 stops
A7S ISO 51200: Max Signal 322e-, RN 0.7e-, DR 8.8 stops

I don't know what the normalized results are, since sensorgen just lists the raw measurements. However, since even the A7s would need to be downsampled to the DXO "Print DR" size, I can only imagine it's results get better as well...I'd expect about a 1.2x improvement in noise (and, sure, DR) with the A7s downsampled to 8mp. I'd expect around a 1.5x improvement in noise & DR for the 1D X downsampled to 8mp. There is still going to be a fairly massive gap between the two, even if it isn't a full 2.2 stops.


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## Richard8971 (Sep 12, 2014)

I'm pretty sure the 7D2 will be a good camera but I'm not going to just dump my current 7D and go out and buy a 7D2. UNLESS the high ISO performance is outstanding (which I am not expecting for really ANY crop sensor body, Canon or otherwise) I am not going to buy one. 

My current 7D is fast and takes great pictures, it does everything I ask it to do. If anything ever happens to my 7D, I will probably upgrade to a 5D3 or better yet a used 1D4. Hell, by that time the market is going to be flooded with tons of lightly used 7D's, I might just go ahead and buy another 7D!

D


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## RodS57 (Sep 12, 2014)

Price point for me will be the deciding factor. The specs look reasonable, especially the potential for good AF. Although I enjoy BIF, this type of shot (fast action) isn't my prime concern. Right now ISO performance is a big consideration. With this in mind, the 6D is a contender. Now, not to start a war, with price and specs considered (based on Internet reviews) the D7100 is also in the running. Two bodies, brand doesn't matter, would be nice: one with short lens and one with long. My kit isn't to the point of vendor lock-in yet.


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## Richard8971 (Sep 12, 2014)

Steve said:


> Wait. What? You're shooting sports at 200? Ok first thing - those dudes are shooting 1600 because no one really cares about noise for sports. Freeze the action, in focus, get a face and a ball and worry about noise some other day. Second, I've shot a lot with a 40D and 7D and yeah they get noisy but not really noticeably bad until 800 at least. I gotta wonder if you might be expecting too much. Also, are you shooting with short lenses and cropping real deep? Because that'll amplify noise like crazy.



+1 I couldn't agree more. I do a lot of wildlife shooting, especially hummingbirds and sometimes I get into the 1600-2000 (even 3200) ISO range with my 7D. I could care less about noise. Once I have processed the RAW file and make a print (even up to 11 x 14) noise is not an issue. The reason I have a camera is to capture a moment in time and to be able to share it with others. My 7D allows me to do that and nobody in the past 5 years of my taking photos have complained about "noise".

Grab your camera and go take some pics... 

D


----------



## icassell (Sep 12, 2014)

I'm pretty excited but still trying to decide whether to buy one or to buy a used 1D Mk IV. It will be interesting next week to see what the REAL final specs are and what the price will be.


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## Richard8971 (Sep 12, 2014)

RodS57 said:


> Now, not to start a war, with price and specs considered (based on Internet reviews) the D7100 is also in the running.



Just FYI, my wife shoots Nikon and she has the D7000 and D7100 and she LOVES her D7100. It is an amazing camera and I love the image quality that it produces. Only three things keep me from switching from Canon to a Nikon D7100.

1) I already have thousands invested in Canon that I can't get a good enough return on...

2) I don't care for Nikon's ergonomics with the D7100, I don't like the way it feels in my hands. The 7D fits my hands perfectly and...

3) The buffer on the D7100 is unfortunately small. You are limited to about 7-8 shots in RAW vs the 23-25 shots I get with my 7D.

But IF I had to decide on image quality alone between the 7D and the D7100, I would choose the D7100 any day.

D


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 12, 2014)

Steve said:


> AccipiterQ said:
> 
> 
> > I should have clarified, my biggest beef is with noise. I can be standing next to someone shooting a Nikon and they're at IS01600, meanwhile I'm at 200 because even 400 starts to show way too much noise. I'm thinking it's the same sensor (at least tech wise) since it's the EXACT same mp amount. VERY fishy. I guess we'll see
> ...


You can go pretty deep into the high ISO range and still get a decent picture....

60D, ISO12800 (as high as the camera goes) 1/30th second exposure, lens wide open, and the lighting is a mix of tungsten and fluorescent.... conditions about as bad as they get.... The only processing is to adjust white balance and the noise slider in lightroom....

and yes, I would love it if the 7D2 had less noise, but honestly, I find focusing issues to be far more important (at least for the way I shoot) than noise issues. However you slice it, the 7D2 should be better at both than my 60D and that is why I plan on upgrading.


----------



## jrista (Sep 12, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Steve said:
> 
> 
> > AccipiterQ said:
> ...



Just to point out, and please don't take this as any kind of diss of your photography, it's not: You can clearly see the effects of rather extreme NR in that photo. The woman's face is practically devoid of any kind of features. I think I might actually opt for a little bit of noise if it meant maintaining some skin features. 

However, it would also be much better if you simply had a higher SNR to start with, and ideally lower RN, so that you didn't have to make the decision about whether to push NR so much that you lose facial features, or hold back and suffer the noisy consequences. It isn't "necessary" to have that, to have more SNR and less noise...but it's still better. It still improves the results in the end...and allows you to achieve those improved results with less effort (and fewer choices.)


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Steve said:
> ...


I took the identical picture with a 5D2 a couple moments later.... It was definitely a better picture. A better sensor will definitely give you a better picture, but unlike an earlier poster's claim, ISO200 is not the point of no return.

And yes, I hope that they do improve the noise on the 7D2 beyond what we have come to expect from Canon... We should find out in a week


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 12, 2014)

"or those expecting 4K video in a DLSR will be very disappointed. Canon sees no reason for this in a consumer camera yet. They told my boss only about 10% of people buy a 5D III for it's video capabilities. They are focusing on cinema market and want you to pay big dollars for the C300/500 or 1DC if you must have a DSLR with 4K. 5D IV will not get it IMO and at best we will see 1080p @ 60fps."

Great so they want to go from a lot buying the 5D2 for video to 10% for the 5D3 to 0.1% for the 5D4. Brilliant.

If this is true (and I still find it hard to believe that Canon could conceive of leaving 4k out of the 5D4, even as much as marketing droids have totally taken over, I still feel it will have 4k) and no Exmor-low ISO.... maybe Canon really and truly has lost the plot.
We'll see next year.


----------



## wickidwombat (Sep 12, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > How are you feeling?
> ...



this exactly

however later when the prices drops down or there are some bargains around i'll probably grab one and stick it on the tamron 150-600 i think the 7D2 AF is gonna be killer


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## Richard8971 (Sep 12, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> I took the identical picture with a 5D2 a couple moments later.... It was definitely a better picture. A better sensor will definitely give you a better picture, but unlike an earlier poster's claim, ISO200 is not the point of no return.
> 
> And yes, I hope that they do improve the noise on the 7D2 beyond what we have come to expect from Canon... We should find out in a week



I would never try and compare any crop sensor body next to a full frame body of similar resolution. They both have their advantages and disadvantage over each other. The primary advantage of crop is lower cost and usually speed (fps) compared to the FF counterpart. 

This really isn't about FF vs crop. It's been proven again and again that FF sensors perform much better. 

What does this mean? Well for me it means that I will buy the best camera I can afford for what I need to use it for and use the hell out of it until it breaks.

This is kind of like comparing cars against one another... each model offers something the other lacks and to get both advantages be ready to pay out the nose for it.

Cameras are no different. Not everyone can afford a 5D3 or 1DX. My opinion? Quit putting other people down because YOU own a 5D3 and brag how "superior" it is to a 7D or Rebel. Instead, show them how to use the camera to the best of the bodies ability and let them upgrade later if they feel like it. 

Some of my best photos (to date) were taken by my VERY humble XTi and "non-L" 70-300. I still outsell some of those photos over what I have shot with my 7D and with my 5D2...

A true professional does not put others down because they have a "lesser" camera. Instead they teach the "newbie" HOW to learn to use his or her equipment and to learn it well. 

D


----------



## x-vision (Sep 12, 2014)

ULFULFSEN said:


> the 7D MK2 will sure be a good camera for sport and wildlife photographer.
> thought i don´t think it will sell as well as the 7D.
> 
> today there are way more options.
> ...



Agree. 
It seems to me that everyone who upgraded from the 7D to the 6D didn't need the 7D.
And, indeed, there are many more options today. 

We'll see how things will play out with the 7DII.
There was a time when I was very interested in the 7D replacement.
But the just announced Nikon D750 is much more appealing now. 
Times have changed, I guess.


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## Faaier (Sep 12, 2014)

Sensor is an evolution, AF probably a revolution for crop camera's. The only thing that puzzels me, how will this camera connect. No WiFi but perhaps Bluetooth? Usb2 or 3! Or a fancy 300€ module to be able to work with a swivable touchscreen called iPad(or phones). I would almost be surprises If this wasn't in the pipeline. 

Or is everybody just using cardreaders? The camera does not need to be a Twit/Face/Insta/Drop/Snap device, but please surprise me!


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## Don Haines (Sep 12, 2014)

Richard8971 said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > I took the identical picture with a 5D2 a couple moments later.... It was definitely a better picture. A better sensor will definitely give you a better picture, but unlike an earlier poster's claim, ISO200 is not the point of no return.
> ...


The point was, that you can push a crop camera with the much maligned 18Mp sensor to the limits of the camera and still get a decent picture.

I have never put anyone down because of their gear or bragged about mine being better.


----------



## Ebrahim Saadawi (Sep 12, 2014)

Lord these DxO ratings are rotting peoples' minds and making them spread misinformation 24/7 on the forums on how Sony/Nikon sensors are 10 stops ahead of Canon's. They are not. I still challenge anybody to give me one example of the best Sony/Nikon APS-C sensor outperforming the 70D's sensor by even more than half a stop in noise performance, dynamic range, or resolution. 

Canon sensor technology is fine, more than fine. Very modern and producing excellent results. Nothing less than any competitor out there!


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## stefsan (Sep 12, 2014)

As a 7D owner I am not overjoyed by the prospect of a hand-me-down sensor from a previous APS-C camera. I really like my 7D except for the awful banding noise showing up even at low ISOs. If they managed to get rid of that and get the remaining noise to look a bit less gritty, I would be much happier and might consider to get one. Apart from sensor quality (an unknown as of yet) the specs of the 7D II look rather good to me. Especially the new AF systems sounds like a real killer. Let's see what the camera can deliver in real world conditions. Until then – happy shooting everybody!


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## MovingViolations (Sep 12, 2014)

I'll rent one and shoot a dimly lit rodeo arena and compare to my aging 1D Mark II. Faster fps and higher ISO at half the cost. The buffer compared to the 1D MII will also be a test it would need to pass. The 7D MII does seem to have the specs on paper for a lot of users who need to freeze the action even in low light. The proof is not coming from DXO but the arena. If the noise is no worse than the 1D MII @ ISO 1600 while shooting at ISO 4000 I'd be a happy camper with one.


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## Jan (Sep 12, 2014)

Whether I'll be excited or not will depend on the performance of the sensor including its DualPixel abilities...


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## daniela (Sep 12, 2014)

My girlfrieds in Japan told me, they had no internal information about the specs. The price rumored about 2200 Dollars would be to much for this product, but the 7DII wil be sold well again, as there are no alternatives to buy if you own a lot of Canon mount lenses.

The forum writers who rumored, that the 70D sensor is used in the 7DII, could be right. There are Japanese rumors that this sensor got a little bit "uppolished" and some small changes were made on the layertechnology. I expect some more information when servicemenuess for repairing are available. Otherwise it is hard to say, if this is true or not.

But the interesting thing is, that they are looking for an 5D successor (some rumors are on an 1Dx successor too). And now they hope Canon will put more efforts in these two models. 

And Canon has to do so, as Sony (who puts a lot more money in developing new sensors than any other company as they will deliver this sensor to other manufacturers too) will release an overwhelming new generation of sensors. High resolution and another for fast shooting in low light.
My fangirls wrote that the low light 7 was the first try, as Sony is working on an model that combines 24MP with an fast AF system and extraordinary low light capacities. (rumores!!) The Camera could be released in end of winter/spring 2015. New lenses will follow.


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## lo lite (Sep 12, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> And 1080p? This cam is supposed to be good for 3-5 years. Soon they will be the only manufacturer without a high-reach 4k cam. A bit ironic that the day SanDisc goes on about the 4k revolution and introducing new 4k optimized cards, Canon comes out with 1080p again.



Dual DIGIC 6, I guess the hardware for 4k video is there. So let's see what Magic Lantern will do to push the envelope or — I doubt this — maybe, just maybe there will be a firmware update on Canon's behalf.


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## AvTvM (Sep 12, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



Sold the 7D some time ago, along with some Canon EF-S and EF lenses. 
Bought the 7D on the first day of availabity 09/2009 as upgrade to my 40D. Never needed and still don't need the fps, but finally wanted a decent AF system and responsiveness in a decent, universal camera with better features and build/sealing than rebels and xxD models. 7D fully delivered to that. 

BUT ... I do shoot quite a bit in fairly dark environments (e.g. concerts, events) and am looking to get SIGNIFICANTLY better IQ. Both noise/banding at ISOs 800 to 6400 AND better DR at base ISO. Therefore my next camera system will likely be FF-sensored. A 7D II with only marginally better IQ [which is what I currently expect] is of no interest to me. 

I was hoping there would be a number of (!) good high-end FF mirrorless camera systems with compact bodies and native lenses [yes, I know FF puts some limit to size of lenses] by end of 2014 ... including a serious Sony A7R competitor from Canon. I do prefer Canon's user interface and ergonomics over any other maker. 

Currently I only have and use the EOS M. IQ is (technically) slightly better than the 7D and it is a much smaller and lighter package to travel with. OTOH, lack of viewfinder and AF-performance (especially in low light!] are a major pain to me. Touchscreen is a plus, especially for tripod-based work. 

Sony A7R is so damn close to what I really want, but just not fully there yet ... AF preformance, vibration-inducing shutter, dismal battery charge, unattractive lens situation ... either too expensive [fixed focals] or not good enough [zooms] plus the fact it comes from Sony. 

So I may be forced to buy yet another "hopefully last" mirrorslapper. Canon 5D III or Nikon D810 being the only candidates. 1D-X/D4s not needed and way too much money, 6D/D610/D750 too crippled. Did not sell my EF 70-200 II yet, but would need to buy 16-35/4 and 24-70/2.8 II ... which is more money than I really want to sink into a soon obsolete mirrored camera system just for use until "my" FF MILC system finally arrives (1 year? 2 yaers?). I would not mind spending 10k on a "really right", totally compelling FF mirrorless system + some good native lenses. But ... not quite here yet.


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## tayassu (Sep 12, 2014)

It simply looks like a great camera for wildlife/sports for the money! 
It is very hard to decide for me now... 7DII or Sigma 150-600 (don't know which one yet  )


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## RickWagoner (Sep 12, 2014)

tayassu said:


> It simply looks like a great camera for wildlife/sports for the money!
> It is very hard to decide for me now... 7DII or Sigma 150-600 (don't know which one yet  )



The sigma won't be as sharp as a 400mm 5.6 cropped to match and if it is then i will poop a brick!


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## tayassu (Sep 12, 2014)

RickWagoner said:


> tayassu said:
> 
> 
> > It simply looks like a great camera for wildlife/sports for the money!
> ...


For 2100€ and a 20 years newer design it better be! And it has OS


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## scyrene (Sep 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > jocau said:
> ...



It being lower on the list than, say, AF points/speed/accuracy doesn't mean DR isn't important. However I haven't found DR lacking at higher ISO on the 5D3. Better quality is always welcome, but will it have much practical impact on our work? You've got a bee in your bonnet about this now.


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## tron (Sep 12, 2014)

ULFULFSEN said:


> who cares about the 7D MK2.... what about the 5D MK IV? ;D


+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2014)

scyrene said:


> You've got a *bee* in your bonnet about this now.



Specifically, a male honey bee.


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## exactopposite (Sep 12, 2014)

I currently shoot with a 7d and I'm happy with the specs. The incremental update makes sense to me because there is nothing I would want to drastically change about the 7d. I have some 70d raw files form someone who assisted me at a wedding and they are definitely cleaner at high iso than the 7d, so if it's the same sensor that's fine with me. 

Essentially, according to the specs at least, the 7d2 improves everything I wanted improved about the 7d. it has GPS, lower high iso noise, more AF points, and it doesn't have one of those swivel screens. I will probably buy one in the spring since right now my backup camera is a rebel.


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## tomscott (Sep 12, 2014)

I think the fact not one person has ticked the "I'm over-the-moon with the spec list. This is beyond my expectations."

Speaks volumes


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## EOS AE1 (Sep 12, 2014)

Sad.... for action shooter it´s great all others think "MEH".


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## Leejo (Sep 12, 2014)

I am missing the option to wait.
"I am not sure. I'll make up my mind when I see the reviews."
Why - I own a 7D and although seeing improvements elsewhere, I can't really complain.
If the sensor is better than simply the 70D sensor, and with the improved AF etc. I would seriously consider.
Seeing as no one really knows what the sensor is going to do - I don't see any reasons for the negative responses there.
It would certainly be cheaper than upgrading to FF - as I would Need a 5D III or IV 
as I would also need to add (/upgrade) a few lenses (I would still keep the 7D)


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## Leejo (Sep 12, 2014)

Addendum -
I was hoping for a 4K compatible sensor - even though I wouldn't use it.
I was hoping for WiFi - but except for some triggering applications wouldn't use it.
(guess it must be a more expensive add on)
A better sensor (low light, less noise/banding) is my first priority, maintaining the build quality next.
A flip Screen would have been nice if it could have been built robustly - I would however rather the 
robustness instead of the Screen.
Improved AF is good, GPS nice. Better fps a sweetner.
Glad they are adding intervalometer, and better battery - simply as a sign that things will be improved.

The question is how long will it take for Magic Lantern to run on dual DIGIC 6 ?!
The 7D development is taking along time to reach the next stable Version.
If there is too Little love for the 7D II this could also take more than a while!!


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## Marsu42 (Sep 12, 2014)

Leejo said:


> The question is how long will it take for Magic Lantern to run on dual DIGIC 6 ?!



My usual estimation is one year from the time a competent ML dev has the camera and puts a lot of time into it, of course for free. Which might not happen at all. Look at the 70d thread in the ML forum: Even with a sponsored 70d, there is little progress. Bottom line: If you want ML, get a camera that runs it right now.



Leejo said:


> The 7D development is taking along time to reach the next stable Version.



There will be no more stable labeled stable, ML is now a rolling release - nightly is the "new stable".


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## Coldhands (Sep 12, 2014)

tomscott said:


> I think the fact not one person has ticked the "I'm over-the-moon with the spec list. This is beyond my expectations."
> 
> Speaks volumes



I disagree - I think it says nothing at all. Considering most people on this forum are serious photo enthusiasts, it's unlikely that anyone will be totally blown away by a spec-list. We all know that the numbers are not necessarily an indication of performance. Besides, how could one be surprised when detailed specs leaked several weeks ago, with nearly perfect accuracy?

As an aside, I can't think of a single time that a camera's spec list (Canon or otherwise) really amazed me. For example, even when the D800 was announced with its headline-grabbing 36 MP sensor, I thought, "that should be great for landscape and studio work, but the burst-rate seems slow and I sure wouldn't want to deal with those huge raw files." Similar scepticism vis-a-vis the much-hyped Sony A7 cameras.


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## mackguyver (Sep 12, 2014)

Coldhands said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > I think the fact not one person has ticked the "I'm over-the-moon with the spec list. This is beyond my expectations."
> ...


Very true and after such a long wait nothing short of a 1D X killer would please this crowd


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> Very true and after such a long wait nothing short of a 1D X killer would please this crowd



Only if it was priced less than the EOS M. :


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## mackguyver (Sep 12, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > Very true and after such a long wait nothing short of a 1D X killer would please this crowd
> ...


LOL - Nice one!


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## gary (Sep 12, 2014)

"Really is that it" would have been my response but sadly it was not on the list. "I was thinking of buying it but now I will wait" could have been another. I am disappointed with Canon, they seem to have lost their way.


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## FEBS (Sep 12, 2014)

AccipiterQ said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > AccipiterQ said:
> ...



So as an action shooter, you prefer blurred images instead of noisy images? The 7D2 can take the photo of the action, the Nikon crop, perhaps the D300.


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## NancyP (Sep 12, 2014)

"In general I am excited" - provided there is a decent buffer of 30 to 40 RAWs (3 to 4 seconds worth of 10 fps burst), this looks like a good action camera for focal length limited work, for the price cited. For those who are enamored of the Nikon D7100, the RAW buffer is pitiful at about 1 second worth, 6 or so RAW images. The Nikon D300 is as old as the 7D and there is no D400 showing up. There is no other amateur-priced competitor to these AF and burst rate specs. It might not be sufficient for happy 7D users to upgrade, though every 7D owner who has experienced the recent 5D3/1DX AF has commented that the 7D AF is outclassed by newer AF.


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## Xero (Sep 12, 2014)

3kramd5 said:


> Xero said:
> 
> 
> > NO TOUCHSCREEN. OK..... HOW DOES THE DPAF WORK? How do we pick focal points?
> ...



I made a video... 70d vs 7d MarkII, focusing on video shooting. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLX7v3LO25c


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## ahsanford (Sep 12, 2014)

NancyP said:


> "In general I am excited" - provided there is a decent buffer of 30 to 40 RAWs (3 to 4 seconds worth of 10 fps burst), this looks like a good action camera for focal length limited work, for the price cited. For those who are enamored of the Nikon D7100, the RAW buffer is pitiful at about 1 second worth, 6 or so RAW images. The Nikon D300 is as old as the 7D and there is no D400 showing up. There is no other amateur-priced competitor to these AF and burst rate specs. It might not be sufficient for happy 7D users to upgrade, though every 7D owner who has experienced the recent 5D3/1DX AF has commented that the 7D AF is outclassed by newer AF.



Yep. The buffer is certainly a wildcard as we never get tabulated buffer-size numbers for JPG / RAW / JPG+RAW in a spec list like this. 

As much as Canon folks get flogged for their sensors, they often deliver excellent burst rate and large buffer size bodies.

- A


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## Chuck Alaimo (Sep 12, 2014)

"I am neither excited nor disappointed. The specs are, on average, what I was expecting."

throwing my hat in the above voting block. I'm not shooting sports that often, nor do I do wildlife so 10 fps is overkill, and I don't find myself in reach limited situations too much. So, there wasn't too much this body could really do for me.

I do like a few of the little things though ---

built in Intervalometer - not huge but very useful and will most likely be in future body upgrades.

Can sync time between 7D II cameras. --- I really like the idea of this, hope they do it right and again, make this universal to all bodies. i shoot with 2 bodies so better time syncing can save a bunch of time and head ache in post. 

Other than that, it's a matter of wait and see how this thing actually performs. Will the sensor have some new characteristics? My guess is yes but to what extent? I mean, this is first and foremost a sports/action camera ---i know car analogies rarely work but --- if you buy a sports a car your not generally going to be too worried about trunk space or a trailer hitch.


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## EOS AE1 (Sep 12, 2014)

Xero said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > Xero said:
> ...



a guy with so many stickers on his monitor you have to take serious.


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## ahsanford (Sep 12, 2014)

Wow. Double woohoo. 200 votes in the poll!

- A


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 12, 2014)

Xero said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah, for video application I suppose touchscreen would be helpful. 7D2 is clearly not a video-centric camera.


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## Maiaibing (Sep 12, 2014)

tron said:


> ULFULFSEN said:
> 
> 
> > who cares about the 7D MK2.... what about the 5D MK IV? ;D
> ...


+0,1 )


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## Steve (Sep 12, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> Very true and after such a long wait nothing short of a 1D X killer would please this crowd



I'd be stoked if it were a 1DIV killer.


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## 2n10 (Sep 12, 2014)

tomscott said:


> I think the fact not one person has ticked the "I'm over-the-moon with the spec list. This is beyond my expectations."
> 
> Speaks volumes



But how and why? Are they looking for too much? Are they being pragmatic and waiting for testing? Have their expectations been mostly met?


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## tcmatthews (Sep 12, 2014)

I have moved on.

I now use full frame Canon / Sony Mirror-less for general photography needs. So I am not really interested in DR when it comes to a 7D2. I am in the market for a dedicated crop wildlife camera. So my primary concerns are ISO 3200 performance and price. I would prefer it to be 60D sized but I know I am in the minority with that. 

I could care less about touch screens but really miss the 60D adjustable display when using my 6D. So I would like to have seen that feature. 

I have been waiting to see if it is a big enough jump over the existing 70D to justify the price difference. Both the 70D and the 7D should meet my focusing needs. I see the ISO specs a general marketing garbage for the most part. I will wait for a review. Then I will make the decision do I keep using my 60D or move to the 70D or 7D. Or rent both to decide.


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## ahsanford (Sep 12, 2014)

2n10 said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > I think the fact not one person has ticked the "I'm over-the-moon with the spec list. This is beyond my expectations."
> ...



Partly it's high expectations, but partly it's the reality that Canon cannot hit every variable out of the park. 'Over the moon' would imply that the camera -- _top to bottom_ -- checks off all of your boxes. 

Zooming in on this a bit, of maybe 10-12 things that frame up the kind of camera we want, each of us really gives a damn / prioritizes about (I'd guess) 3-5 of those. *I'm going to go out on a very sturdy limb and state that if there is one thing that is keeping the 16% of us currently pegged as 'Excited' from saying 'Over the moon' would be the sensor*. I'm not necessarily a high MP fan, and I'm not saying that it's a 70D sensor in there, but 20.2 MP _hints_ that it may not be a breakthrough new piece of tech. 

(That is wild speculation of course, but I'm guessing that many more readers of this post bobbed their head at the _notion_ I've presented rather than those who scorn the lack of logic and facts behind it. Not my best moment, I admit. Honest, I'm not a troll, 20 year old fanboy or rabble rouser. I'm just sayin.)

As everyone cares about the sensor as a very high (if not highest) priority, hearing/inferring/believing it will be _good but not great_ will limit how fired up people are for this.

A not very brave hypothesis: if the confirmed spec list included, say, a 24-28 MP sensor or even the current 20.2 with a clear addendum of "two to three stops better low light performance than the 7D", the percentage of over-the-mooners would skyrocket. Because everything else on this spec list is pretty solid, save for a meager 2.9% of us who are pining for 4K, Wifi, tilty-screen, touch-screen, etc. 

- A


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## Marsu42 (Sep 12, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> Because everything else on this spec list is pretty solid



And it'd better be, this is a hilarious amount of money for a crop camera that will be outgunned iq-wise by every cheaper ff out there. Remember that the alternative to spending this amount of €€€ for a camera body is to buy a (better) lens... what will show more in the resulting shots?

Unless you're really a focal-length limited sports or wildlife photog who wants a sealed machinegun-mirror (and accompanying sound!) the 6d is something a lot of people will consider even if its af is mediocre at best.



ahsanford said:


> Partly it's high expectations, but partly it's the reality that Canon cannot hit every variable out of the park. 'Over the moon' would imply that the camera -- _top to bottom_ -- checks off all of your boxes.



Canon has to blame themselves that such a timespan 7d1->7d2 will generate unrealistic expectations like a "mini 1dx". But really, they're around for making profit and not giving away x-mas presents. If a camera below the premium model would check all boxes, their marketing div. would have failed.


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## ahsanford (Sep 12, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> [Marsu said lots of good stuff.]



That's why a 'flagship-level crop body' is such an odd, odd duck. It's meant to be your last crop body before you make the plunge to FF, but the cost of the big white superteles gives the 7D a small slice of pros who say "Hell, I'll pay $3k, $4k for this if it saves me from having to get a 600mm L lens."

And that's why Canon should offer this for $5000 for the first three months and then drop it down to the $1800-ish we're expecting. Some folks _have_ to buy this based on the glass they own and the reach they must have. Canon really owns them.

- A


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## Marsu42 (Sep 12, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > [Marsu said lots of good stuff.]



I'll bookmark that quite for my history yearbook 



ahsanford said:


> That's why a 'flagship-level crop body' is such an odd, odd duck.



Is it? We don't know what marketing Canon will attach to the 7d2, all-around premium crop or specialized machine gun.

To their credit, their marketing is more often more spot on than people imagine, for example they clearly sell the 6d as a tourist landscape camera in their leaflet I got at the cps - according to this, the mediocre af has to be excused. With the 7d2, they'll probably not imply it's good for low-light shooting (or high-shutter tele).


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## Tugela (Sep 12, 2014)

I am disappointed since I was hoping for a camera that would combine my general still and video needs. They are capable of making such a camera at a consumer price range, but for whatever reason they have chosen not to do so. I have been waiting for such a camera for years now, and Sony and Panasonic are making products in that niche, but Canon just seem to be doing nothing. How much longer do I need to wait?

I want to show product loyalty to Canon, but frankly they are just not addressing the needs of my segment of the market.


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## Tugela (Sep 12, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



No one defines themselves as "tourist landscape photographers", so if that is who they are marketing to, they are selling to an empty room.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 12, 2014)

Tugela said:


> No one defines themselves as "tourist landscape photographers", so if that is who they are marketing to, they are selling to an empty room.



That was only my summary of it, I don't have the brochure anymore, but I imagine would be "ideal for travel" yadayadayada "world class-leading low light 11pt af" yadayadayada "use wifi for never-seen before outdoor shots" and so on. So nothing about tracking or such.

Btw I love their 6d wifi remote sample scene with the guy standing on a lake shore with his camera in the water on tripod. Great you're not getting wet feet with the 6d. But how do you manage to put the camera there in the first place, and how do you frame the scene w/o a robotic ball head :-> ?


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## ahsanford (Sep 12, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> Is it? We don't know what marketing Canon will attach to the 7d2, all-around premium crop or specialized machine gun.



First, to the comment above: I think the needle is leaning ever-so-slightly towards the specialized machine gun, but it's not slammed all the way over. If it had an integral grip, solid top without seams for a flash, published specs of a massive buffer, F/8 AF points scattered all over the viewfinder for the reach-obsessed folks on teleconverters, etc., _then_ I'd say the the needle would be all the way over and they'd ask for $2,500 for it. But the specs shown are probably going to be marketed similar to a 1D4 with a different product: _an action camera with great reach._

But the 6D and 7D2 user bases are completely different animals to me. Both may be priced about the same, but that doesn't mean they'll attract the same users:


7D2 folks are one of two groups to me. The first group -- the first-in-line early pre-orderers on day one -- will largely be sports/wildlife/birding folks who either can't afford superteles, or pros who _can_ afford them but would rather not have to lug the biggest ones in the field all the time. The second group are the 'stuck in crop for a host of reasons' shooters -- the 7D2 will be the top-of-the-line call as the big upgrade for Rebel or XXD owners looking for a new body, or for folks fully bought in to EF-S glass and stubbornly refuse to sell off those lenses to move to FF.


6D folks run a much wider gamut of users -- pros just getting started, art/photgraphy students who prefer more potential for IQ without the bells and whistles, concert photogs for that -3 EV AF point, old manual settings/film shooters who are just now making the move to digital and hiss like reptiles when their brain first tries to process crop factors, wealthy folks buying their first SLR but wanting to have a nicer camera than the masses, etc. It's a real mixed bag here.

I don't think one camp is better or worse than the other, it's just different strokes for different folks. 

I have, on many occasions in this forum, predicted the 7D2 _could_ cost more than the 6D because for 'reach'-obsessed/necessitated realms of photography, the 7D2 isn't an option for them -- *it is the next camera they must buy*, and that's that. Canon can take whatever they want from these folks.

- A


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## NancyP (Sep 12, 2014)

"Tourist Landscape Photographer" reporting for duty! Nothing wrong with a non-action simple full frame camera - 6D is perfectly fine for landscape and general photographers in the Canon camp. One can argue that the landscape photographers should consider Sony A7r (or whatever Sony next produces in a high-res body) with adapters, rather than the few-hundred-dollars-less 6D body. PJ, action, event photographers need something else. Focal-length-limited action high-end shooters need the 7D2, non-FL-limited action high-end shooters (events, weddings, etc) need the 1DX or 5D3.


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## tcmatthews (Sep 12, 2014)

NancyP said:


> "Tourist Landscape Photographer" reporting for duty! Nothing wrong with a non-action simple full frame camera - 6D is perfectly fine for landscape and general photographers in the Canon camp. One can argue that the landscape photographers should consider Sony A7r (or whatever Sony next produces in a high-res body) with adapters, rather than the few-hundred-dollars-less 6D body. PJ, action, event photographers need something else. Focal-length-limited action high-end shooters need the 7D2, non-FL-limited action high-end shooters (events, weddings, etc) need the 1DX or 5D3.



I thought about buying the A7r but find the lack of an electronic first curtain is a deal breaker. The A7r has to shut the shutter twice to take a picture. This can cause visible camera shake at landscape shutter speeds. The A7 has first curtain electric shutter but I want the higher MP. So I bough a 6D. I was not interested in the current Sony EF lenses. I though it would be strange to spend that money on a camera then manual focus Canon and legacy glass all the time. 

I will buy the A7r if they add electronic first curtain shutter or a successor if it has electronic first curtain shutter.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> DXO's site is EXCESSIVELY slow for me these days...it takes forever for each page to load, and then, when they do, you have to wait longer for the tabs to organize properly so you can click on them.



Interesting. I was afraid it was just my system and something bad going on perhaps.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 12, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> I have, on many occasions in this forum, predicted the 7D2 _could_ cost more than the 6D because for 'reach'-obsessed/necessitated realms of photography, the 7D2 isn't an option for them -- *it is the next camera they must buy*, and that's that. Canon can take whatever they want from these folks.



+1 for that - my estimation for the 7d2 was $2000+ as the early adopters' price, only then falling like the 6d and 5d3 did. I reckon Canon do their pricing in ¥, but I also think staying below a $2k mark is a message that they've learned from their 5d3 strategy: If the latter would have been cheaper than the d800 all along, Canon would have speared themselves a loss in user confidence.



NancyP said:


> "Tourist Landscape Photographer" reporting for duty! Nothing wrong with a non-action simple full frame camera - 6D is perfectly fine for landscape and general photographers in the Canon camp.



 It depends on the price, for the original amount of €€€ I felt the af system was over-crippled and a camera in this class should be all-around capable and a €3000 5d3 shouldn't be required. But now that the price has dropped I guess it's ok-ish, I'm certainly fine with my 6d unless I try to track something or it starts raining.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 12, 2014)

Coldhands said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > I think the fact not one person has ticked the "I'm over-the-moon with the spec list. This is beyond my expectations."
> ...



If it had said as it does plus:
4k
1080p RAW
video zoomed modes
majorly improved dynamic range
no minor things like AutoISO and basic video usability features crippled
a flip screen (also this one also gets both love and hate)

I bet with those specs there would have a lot of people checking the "blows me away box".

And for sure if it also said noticeably improved high ISO SNR (although this is incredibly tricky and I'm not sure realistic as this point, everything else I suggest above would actually be much easier to pull off IMO as this is the only item that is pushing up against the boundaries of physics).

The lack of DR for this one isn't killer, but it certainly would've been nice. And I guess they can get away with no 4k on this one, but an APS-C 4k sure could've done wonders. And it's giving potentially worrisome hints for the 5D4. if the new AF is all it's cracked up to be it should carry out it's main tasks well.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> And it'd better be, this is a hilarious amount of money for a crop camera that will be outgunned iq-wise by every cheaper ff out there.



Well, we don't _know_ the price yet. But the rumor is $1799. Which cheaper FF models are out there? Looking at B&H, I see the Sony a7. Were you referring to older, used models...or film cameras? Or am I missing some? Yes, there are discounts and gray market options for less money...and those will come along for the 7DII as well.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> The lack of DR for this one isn't killer...



Which Canon cameras have been 'killed' by a lack of DR??


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## Marsu42 (Sep 12, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Well, we don't _know_ the price yet. But the rumor is $1799.



Ok, I didn't get that, so my $2k estimate can still be true 



neuroanatomist said:


> Which cheaper FF models are out there? Looking at B&H, I see the Sony a7. Were you referring to older, used models...or film cameras?



d600 is well below, d610 & 6d seem to be about the same announced 7d2 price which most likely won't be discounted for some month to come. If the pricing is accurate, I guess Canon wanted to avoid a too intense crop vs ff discussion because their crop would show their weakness. 

As I always point out, I really like my 18mp 60d. But I've come to realize that for shooting movement with long focal lengths you need very high shutter speeds and arrive in high iso regions in no time. Unless you're shooting the proverbial siting ducks at low shutter & IS, let's hope the 7d2 sensor really isn't the same as in the 70d.


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## Richard8971 (Sep 13, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> The point was, that you can push a crop camera with the much maligned 18Mp sensor to the limits of the camera and still get a decent picture.
> 
> I have never put anyone down because of their gear or bragged about mine being better.



No, no, no... I'm very sorry Don, I wasn't meaning YOU personally have put someone down... I just meant it as a general statement. I have met a few so called "professionals" who feel that unless you own the most expensive camera gear you are nothing to them and they treat you like crap.

I honestly wasn't talking about you... I hope you accept my apology.

D


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 13, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Which cheaper FF models are out there? Looking at B&H, I see the Sony a7. Were you referring to older, used models...or film cameras?
> ...



I was considering current models as competition. B&H doesn't seem to list the D600 anymore. The 6D and D600 list for $1900 now. But the 7DII is better spec'd than those entry level FF cameras in pretty much every way other than the sensor. 




Marsu42 said:


> As I always point out, I really like my 18mp 60d. But I've come to realize that for shooting movement with long focal lengths you need very high shutter speeds and arrive in high iso regions in no time. Unless you're shooting the proverbial siting ducks at low shutter & IS, let's hope the 7d2 sensor really isn't the same as in the 70d.



That's one of the big reasons I moved to the 1D X, and stopped using my 7D for birds. But to get an action-oriented body (good tracking AF, decent frame rate) with a FF sensor, that works with Canon's lenses means a 5DIII or better, which isn't cheap.


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## ahsanford (Sep 13, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > The lack of DR for this one isn't killer...
> ...



Didn't you hear, Neuro? Every Canon landscape photographer on the planet -- utterly moved by the kind, impartial souls at DXO -- sold their gear to buy a D800, a 14-24 F/2.8, and a comfortable pair of shoes to walk the earth and capture things at ISO 100. 

- A


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## emko (Sep 13, 2014)

if what people are saying about the DR it makes me feel disappointed i was hoping for something from Canon that would show that the next 5D would push the DR. If only Sony didn't have the sensor i wouldn't be thinking about this and wanting to buy a D800.


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## mkabi (Sep 13, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> It is good to see they went full hog (most likely, granted the 7D had a lot of AF points, but none of them actually worked as well as any 1 series point, but I trust they went full 1 series quality this time) with the AF. It should be a total beast for reach/action (when not DR limited).
> 
> But I have a bad feeling it's just gonna be a slightly tweaked 70D sensor at best.
> 
> ...



Lets hope this is true, competition is good for the consumer...
I'm hoping for a 7DC announcement at NAB 2015, and/or further price reduction of the 1DC.


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## JRPhotos (Sep 13, 2014)

I'm happy with it, I'll be upgrading my 7D.


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## beforeEos Camaras (Sep 14, 2014)

the duel card slots are a good thing and the tighter weather sealing sounds good the vague standard for the 70d of equal to a eos1-n tells me nothing really still scared of getting caught in the rain and better AF points with cross points at f8 maybe even better.

the move from film to digital was a long road and still learning a lot started with a Sony point and shoot a p73 then a hr1 Sony to a t1i in 2009 and each time my IQ jumped. Its not like film days some of the poorest digital is very close to my film photos and yet I do find some think that if it not like taking a uber sharp photo its not right also some noise how dare there be noise. I print in 11x14 as large prints sometime 16x20 and my t1i did that with out any trouble that was from just the jpg not the raw file and I do record jpg raw soon to get a canon p100 printer I use the Epson a810 for now

rant over


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## AvTvM (Sep 14, 2014)

beforeEos Camaras said:


> the duel card slots are a good thing and the tighter weather sealing sounds good the vague standard for the 70d of equal to a eos1-n tells me nothing really still scared of getting caught in the rain



I agree. Those claims are extremely vague and pretty useless. 

Camera makers should finally start providing ratings on a recognized scale as to the level of ingress protection on their cameras [with lens cap on], lenses [with rear lens cap on] and camera w/attached lens (which would always be the lower rating, at best) ... my preferred grading scale would be the IP grid, but I would also be fine with some US mil standard rating grid, as long as I can read up on what the values mean. 

Evenn (premium) makers of photobags and other accessories are able to provide IP numbers for their products, but camera makers refuse to do so until now.


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## ts636 (Sep 14, 2014)

The one spec that no one seems to be mentioning much is the dual Digic 6 processors. Now I'm no technical guru so maybe extra processing power doesn't make much of a difference to anything but if the 7D Mk2 is such a small step forward as some are suggesting why does it need/have more processing power than any other camera in the Canon range (with the possible exception of the 1DX with it's 3rd processor)?


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## Don Haines (Sep 14, 2014)

ts636 said:


> The one spec that no one seems to be mentioning much is the dual Digic 6 processors. Now I'm no technical guru so maybe extra processing power doesn't make much of a difference to anything but if the 7D Mk2 is such a small step forward as some are suggesting why does it need/have more processing power than any other camera in the Canon range (with the possible exception of the 1DX with it's 3rd processor)?


The extra processing power will allow you to produce better in-camera jpgs, will allow the higher frame rates for stills and video, and will also allow you to run far more complex AF and tracking algorithms...and that's the part that I am really anxious to see what they have done...


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## ahsanford (Sep 14, 2014)

ts636 said:


> The one spec that no one seems to be mentioning much is the dual Digic 6 processors. Now I'm no technical guru so maybe extra processing power doesn't make much of a difference to anything but if the 7D Mk2 is such a small step forward as some are suggesting why does it need/have more processing power than any other camera in the Canon range (with the possible exception of the 1DX with it's 3rd processor)?



Ten frames a second means you need to hustle with all that data. The new AF system will need additional CPU horsepower as well, but the 5D3 AF system seems to be of similar power and that camera only has one DIGIC chip. And keep in mind that no 5D model (I, II or III) has ever had two chips, _yet the original 7D had two chips_. So my money is on framerate. 

The 1DX is a slightly different animal in that the third chip (I thought) was _dedicated_ to make the 1D-series level metering functions work -- like spot metering at any AF point, which is a feature I sadly don't have on my 5D3. 

- A


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## StudentOfLight (Sep 14, 2014)

In addition to the very sensible points made above, I remember there was some talk of different-sized sub-pixels in the "new 20.2Mpx" sensor. If this evolved design is true I wonder if Canon will introduce a ".CR3" format to also log the disparity between the two sub-pixels as well as the binned value in the RAW. Maybe this is another use for the dual-DiG!C 6 layout.


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## justawriter (Sep 14, 2014)

I think this will be a very solid, well received, and top selling camera. The AF and FPS will be a great help to me, however, not enough to buy one right away. I will likely purchase this camera in 18 months when I think my current 7d will be ready for replacement.


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## Dduval (Sep 15, 2014)

justawriter said:


> I think this will be a very solid, well received, and top selling camera. The AF and FPS will be a great help to me, however, not enough to buy one right away. I will likely purchase this camera in 18 months when I think my current 7d will be ready for replacement.



I feel the same way about buying one right away. However, with the prices of the 7D right now, I'm very tempted to get the 7D right now...I seen a pristine used one for $650.00. Pretty hard to beat that price to performance ratio...even the refurb from canon for $719.00 is a great deal.


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## beforeEos Camaras (Sep 15, 2014)

Dduval said:


> justawriter said:
> 
> 
> > I think this will be a very solid, well received, and top selling camera. The AF and FPS will be a great help to me, however, not enough to buy one right away. I will likely purchase this camera in 18 months when I think my current 7d will be ready for replacement.
> ...



get off the fence and do it. in late march I just got back from japan with my t1i and a new 10-22 efs lens and knew that the t1i was at the wall for what I was doing love the camera but it was not good for wildlife and the choices I had was the 7d 6d and the 70D. I ended up with the 70D Great camera. I gripped the 70D and got 3 new lens to round out my new kit and enjoyed the spring summer and now fall only thing besides a 1.4 extender a better flash I have the 430II ex really need to get a 600 series flash to slave off my camera.


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## FEBS (Sep 16, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



Sorry, but I don't get your remark. We are discussing the 7D2, which is mentioned to be an action camera. Why the hell would a landscape photographer choose this body?

Just the same as buying a Ferrari and then complaining the hard suspension.


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