# technique advice for a 600mm II



## luckydude (Sep 16, 2013)

Hi folks,

newbie here with more money than brains (or technique). I recently was gifted with 600mm II and a 1.4x III (and a 2x III, almost forgot that one).

I did "OK" on a moon pic: http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/moon.jpg

but I'm having trouble learning how to use this beast on other stuff. I'm coming from a 400mm f4 DO + the 1.4x II.

I'll start by saying this 600mm out resolves the 400mm by quite a bit, even with the 1.4x on it.

That said, holding this sucker is a bitch even as "light" as it is for a 600mm (and it is light, you can hand hold it, just not for more than about a minute. At least I can't).

Does everyone who owns a lens like this use a tripod?

On the tripod I got crap results unless I did live view (which locks up the shutter, still have to figure out how to do that w/o live view. I did say newbie, bokay, don't yell at me. Too much).

The moon pic is cropped, 5DIII + 600mm + 2x + tripod + live view + remote shutter release + IS on. Is that just what you do when you have a lens this big? I mean the live view remote shutter IS part.

I'm used to walking around and grabbing shots as they present themselves, the 400mm lets you do that, the 600mm is not so much. I did get some keepers just walking around but a much much lower rate than the 400mm.

I guess what I'm asking is what is the basics of using a 600mm and 600mm+1.4x. What settings do you use, do you always lock up the mirror, remote release, no IS or IS?

I'm new to this big bad boy and still not sure if it is for me, I love the sharpness and the reach, not yet comfortable with my sucky technique.


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## jhpeterson (Sep 16, 2013)

While the IS function should produce noticeably sharper images when handheld at all but the highest shutter speeds, it should be disabled when using the lens on a tripod. A remote release should further minimize image movement.


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## rpt (Sep 16, 2013)

luckydude said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> newbie here with more money than brains (or technique). I recently was gifted with 600mm II and a 1.4x III (and a 2x III, almost forgot that one).
> 
> I did "OK" on a moon pic: http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/moon.jpg


Nice one!




> but I'm having trouble learning how to use this beast on other stuff. I'm coming from a 400mm f4 DO + the 1.4x II.
> 
> I'll start by saying this 600mm out resolves the 400mm by quite a bit, even with the 1.4x on it.
> 
> ...


I don't have the 600L but have you thought of a monopod? Much less hassle to carry around than a tripod.




> On the tripod I got crap results unless I did live view (which locks up the shutter, still have to figure out how to do that w/o live view. I did say newbie, bokay, don't yell at me. Too much).
> 
> The moon pic is cropped, 5DIII + 600mm + 2x + tripod + live view + remote shutter release + IS on. Is that just what you do when you have a lens this big? I mean the live view remote shutter IS part.
> 
> ...


If the same image taken in live view is sharp and taken with AF is not, it means your AF needs AFMA done. I suggest you procure FoCal http://www.reikan.co.uk/focalweb/. Get the Pro version.


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## takesome1 (Sep 16, 2013)

A few things to go with it would help.

A good solid monopod, it makes it easier to carry and hold. 
A Gimbal type head like Wimberley's WH-200, RRS makes a nice one as well for tripod work. 
Tripod legs sturdy enough to support this.

For my use I would say 30% of my shots are hand held, 40% on a monopod and the rest off a tripod. 

For monopod and hand held work, even with the improved IS of the new 600mm, shutter speed is your friend with this lens. The more shutter speed you can get the better pictures you will be taking.

The lens will be very sharp wide open, because of the light requirement for fast shutter speeds you will find yourself shooting close to or at F/4 quit a bit.

I wish I had friends who would gift things like this to me.


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## scottkinfw (Sep 16, 2013)

Obviously, you are not meant to have this stuff. Just send it off to me.

Great moon shot!

sek


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 16, 2013)

Both a monopod and a tripod (with gimbal head) are useful with the 600 II, although as you say, it can be handheld for a while. 

Enjoy your gifts!


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## Greatland (Sep 16, 2013)

Get a good monopod.....if you are strong enough to hand hold this lens then you are one strong dude. I agree with the shutter speed comment. Faster is better, and for the very best pictures use a good tri-pod with a good gimbal head on it...but this lens is the real deal...sharp as hell even with the 1.4 extender!! I love mine!!


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## victorwol (Sep 16, 2013)

I have a nice RRS monopod with one of their monopod heads, I use that to walk around, and be careful, remember a monopod head will not keep it balanced, you can crush your hand if you let it go to pick your phone or something, it happened to me and almost fracture my finger..

Also have an RRS carbon tripod with and http://reallyrightstuff.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=PG-02-FG&type=3&eq=&desc=PG-02-FG%3a-PG-02-Full-Gimbal-Head&key=it gimbal. 

That one gets a nice balance. I also use my camera with the rear focus technique so I can quickly switch from tracking focus to a one shot.


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## Eldar (Sep 16, 2013)

If you want to handhold, which I do most of the time, you have to practice your standing position and the key is how you rest your elbow against your body. It is pretty similar to a standing shooting position with a rifle. If your elbow is not resting against your body, you will start shaking in seconds. You also need to practice your breathing. Again, pretty similar to what you do when you shoot with a rifle.

For tripod and monopod, I use Gitzo GT3542LS and GM5561T, with Really Right Stuff BH-55 and MH-02 heads. Since you were lucky enough to get the lens, you should treat yourself to something similar.

Have fun!


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## rpt (Sep 16, 2013)

Eldar said:


> If you want to handhold, which I do most of the time, you have to practice your standing position and the key is how you rest your elbow against your body. It is pretty similar to a standing shooting position with a rifle. If your elbow is not resting against your body, you will start shaking in seconds. You also need to practice your breathing. Again, pretty similar to what you do when you shoot with a rifle.
> 
> For tripod and monopod, I use Gitzo GT3542LS and GM5561T, with Really Right Stuff BH-55 and MH-02 heads. Since you were lucky enough to get the lens, you should treat yourself to something similar.
> 
> Have fun!


True! Photographers would make excellent snipers...


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## takesome1 (Sep 16, 2013)

rpt said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > If you want to handhold, which I do most of the time, you have to practice your standing position and the key is how you rest your elbow against your body. It is pretty similar to a standing shooting position with a rifle. If your elbow is not resting against your body, you will start shaking in seconds. You also need to practice your breathing. Again, pretty similar to what you do when you shoot with a rifle.
> ...



Maybe in the old days. One Frame and One Shot is all you get. Not now.

Now days photographers are closer to machine gun artists than snipers.

Seriously Eldar is right you can draw this comparison. If you have shot very much you know that shooting in the standing position is the least favorable. When I am hand holding I am always watching for a brace to help me out. A tree to lean on, a branch to set the camera on or something solid to lean across. Sitting in a shooters position on the ground is much better. All applies to the big lens as well as guns.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 16, 2013)

rpt said:


> True! Photographers would make excellent snipers...



Except a dSLR doesn't have much recoil...


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## surapon (Sep 16, 2013)

Just my Equipment to support the Big Lens.
Enjoy
Surapon


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## wickidwombat (Sep 16, 2013)

also if you are shooting stuff in space make sure you apply the rule of 600 to make sure your shutter speed is not too long and you end up with orbital blur

http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/30263/what-is-the-rule-of-600-in-astrophotography


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## surapon (Sep 16, 2013)

Sample of my Monopod in shooting.
Enjoy
Surapon


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## luckydude (Sep 16, 2013)

Hi, me again.

So on the gift thing, this is actually from my parents in a way, it's a thank you for managing their estate; my dad died first and I took care of the finances for my mother for about a decade. Never took anything for all that work except for this lens. My dad shot wild life and I suspect he'd both approve and think I'm crazy (which is prolly true).

The tools I have so far to help are a manfrotto monopod (I think the same one as shown in this thread), a gitzmo tripod w/ a ball head (yeah, I know, need a gimbal head, trying to decide between the wimberly and the mongoose). All left over from my Dad's stuff.

The tripod is pretty useless without mirror lock up and remote release, this is too big of a setup for it to hold it still when the mirror moves. Is that normal or not?

I've also found on both monopod and tripod that if I don't use IS when just taking a shot w/o remote release then things are blurry.

I haven't yet tried doing multiple shots, I'm doing single shots. Does everyone use continuous to get keepers?

With the monopod I have to use IS, I can't hold it still enough.

The comments about this being like shooting are spot on. I target practice with a .30-30 and the feeling is very similar. No recoil though. 

I don't consider myself particularly buff - I think most people could hand hold this if they prop the left elbow against their chest - I thought that was standard technique for any longish lens?


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## takesome1 (Sep 16, 2013)

Continuous vs Single would depend on what you are shooting.
Birds in flight, especially taking off would be Continuous.
A deer standing looking at you, your choice but I hate having to pick between 10 identical pictures when I am sorting.

As far as the other things you said, IS on when on the monopod and even the tripod. I do that as well.
Sounds very typical and nothing wrong with leaving it on other than battery life IMO.

The tripod isn't useless without mirror lock up and remote release. Set up right with a gimbal and sturdy tripod it is as light as a feather to sweep and follow birds. Solid as well. Using the gun comparison, it is your machine gun on a turret.

Other than that just go play with it. Best way to learn.


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## luckydude (Sep 16, 2013)

takesome1 said:


> Continuous vs Single would depend on what you are shooting.
> Birds in flight, especially taking off would be Continuous.
> A deer standing looking at you, your choice but I hate having to pick between 10 identical pictures when I am sorting.
> 
> ...



This is all the sort of advice I was looking for, thanks. And I agree on the delete delete delete process. It's really annoying - you sort of want a way to have a center crop of all of them up at the same time and pick the best.


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## J.R. (Sep 16, 2013)

luckydude said:


> trying to decide between the wimberly and the mongoose



Do consider the gimbal by RRS ... it is freaking awesome for long lenses.


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## luckydude (Sep 16, 2013)

J.R. said:


> luckydude said:
> 
> 
> > trying to decide between the wimberly and the mongoose
> ...



Which one and why do you like it better?

I saw the pros on the wimberly mainly being that you mount the lens by setting it on the plate (less likely to drop it) and the cons being the weight.

Pros on the mongoose being weight and cons being that it is a side mount (more likely to drop $16K of stuff, gives one pause).


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## GuyF (Sep 16, 2013)

One technique for using a big lens with a monopod is to keep your left hand as far forward towards the open end of the lens hood as possible. Using your hands at both ends of the body/lens combo gives greater control over the heavy lens swiveling about its pivot point (i.e. the monopod). Doing this allows more control when panning and "fine tuning" the balance point. Keeping the left hand really close to the camera body will have the combo wanting to tilt all over the place thanks to that physics slut, Mrs Inertia.

For a pretty cheap but effective gimbal head try Lensmaster http://www.lensmaster.co.uk/index.htm

I bought their RH-2 and got the shot below last night with my 5D3, 500mm mk2 and Kenko 2x TC. (Yes, I've probably over-sharpened it a bit too much but I leave the good stuff to NASA.) 

Of course, you could just do weight training and handhold the 600!


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## Greatland (Sep 17, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> rpt said:
> 
> 
> > True! Photographers would make excellent snipers...
> ...


And a 1Dx and that 600, combined weigh more than any target rifle that I have ever owned or shot....but the technique suggestion is a good one, but not always possible due to the unpredictability of animals....


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## CarlTN (Sep 17, 2013)

GuyF said:


> One technique for using a big lens with a monopod is to keep your left hand as far forward towards the open end of the lens hood as possible. Using your hands at both ends of the body/lens combo gives greater control over the heavy lens swiveling about its pivot point (i.e. the monopod). Doing this allows more control when panning and "fine tuning" the balance point. Keeping the left hand really close to the camera body will have the combo wanting to tilt all over the place thanks to that physics slut, Mrs Inertia.
> 
> For a pretty cheap but effective gimbal head try Lensmaster http://www.lensmaster.co.uk/index.htm
> 
> ...



Nice work and not all that oversharpened...what radius did you use? I assume this is a 100% crop? How much better is the Kenko 2x TC, than the Canon series ii 2x TC?


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## rpt (Sep 17, 2013)

CarlTN said:


> GuyF said:
> 
> 
> > One technique for using a big lens with a monopod is to keep your left hand as far forward towards the open end of the lens hood as possible. Using your hands at both ends of the body/lens combo gives greater control over the heavy lens swiveling about its pivot point (i.e. the monopod). Doing this allows more control when panning and "fine tuning" the balance point. Keeping the left hand really close to the camera body will have the combo wanting to tilt all over the place thanks to that physics slut, Mrs Inertia.
> ...


+1

Looks great to me too. These monsoon clouds have obscured the moon since June! Hopefully in a couple of weeks they will mostly be gone... Will try with my 400L + 1.4x then.


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## East Wind Photography (Sep 17, 2013)

With your setup you should use IS on the tripod. The new mark ii lens can tell when it's on a tripod. IS will help cancel vibration from mirror lockup. It will also help dampen vibration from wind. Only with a very large and solid mount can you disable IS. Otherwise your shutter speed will need to be 1/2000 or faster.

Enjoy your gift. Your dad would definitely approve.



luckydude said:


> Hi, me again.
> 
> So on the gift thing, this is actually from my parents in a way, it's a thank you for managing their estate; my dad died first and I took care of the finances for my mother for about a decade. Never took anything for all that work except for this lens. My dad shot wild life and I suspect he'd both approve and think I'm crazy (which is prolly true).
> 
> ...


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## GuyF (Sep 17, 2013)

CarlTN said:


> Nice work and not all that oversharpened...what radius did you use? I assume this is a 100% crop? How much better is the Kenko 2x TC, than the Canon series ii 2x TC?



Carl - Glad you (and rpt) liked the shot.

For info: f11 1/25th at iso 320
Adobe Camera RAW:
Sharp 66
Radius 1.6
Detail 61
Masking 0
(Basically mess around with the sliders 'til it looks okay(!) and also tweak the curves and contrast etc.)

The cropped image ended up 2512*1905 then was resized for posting here.

As for the Canon 2x mk2 TC. No idea! I've had the Kenko 1.4x and 2x DG 300 TCs for a while now. I originally got them for use with my 300mm f2.8 IS mk1. The 1.4x is very good, very sharp but the 2x is pretty soft so I only use it if absolutely necessary. I got the Canon 1.4x mk3 TC free when I bought the 500mm. I haven't compared the Kenko 1.4x to the Canon with regards to speed - I just assume (hope!) the Canon provides faster focussing as it's designed specifically for the mk2 big whites.

Both Kenko TCs aren't worth much secondhand so I'll probably keep them for use with my Tamron 90mm macro. Clearly Canon have a reason for designing their TCs the way they do but the protruding front element really screws up your choices of what lenses you can use with them.

Take care,

Guy.


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## CarlTN (Sep 17, 2013)

GuyF said:


> CarlTN said:
> 
> 
> > Nice work and not all that oversharpened...what radius did you use? I assume this is a 100% crop? How much better is the Kenko 2x TC, than the Canon series ii 2x TC?
> ...



Very true on the protruding element. I considered getting the Tamron 90mm macro VC, looks like a stellar lens. I might get one next spring, I dunno. I got into an argument with an idiot on amazon about it...he was kind of a blowhard. I can't relate to people like that at all...hahaha.

I only have the Canon 2x ii TC. Had it for 4 years, it's on long term "loan" from my cousin...who told me I couldn't sell it...haha. He feels it's not good enough quality for him to use, and yet he wants me to have it and use it...but not sell it! I've used it on my 135 f/2 and it works ok...but is sharper and better for quasi macro photography with it, rather than for achieving sharpness at or near infinity focus. I've also tried it on the various super telephoto's I've rented...never all that impressive, but certainly usable for less critical shots.


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## rpt (Sep 18, 2013)

GuyF said:


> CarlTN said:
> 
> 
> > Nice work and not all that oversharpened...what radius did you use? I assume this is a 100% crop? How much better is the Kenko 2x TC, than the Canon series ii 2x TC?
> ...


Guy, I have a question. Why did you opt for f11? Shouldn't you have shot it around f5.6? It is not like one needs any depth of field here. Also the light is not very strong so f5.6, 1/100 and ISO 160 would have been my preferred setting. Could you comment?

Thanks in advance.


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## GuyF (Sep 18, 2013)

RPT - ah, but you forget the 500mm is f4 and a 2x TC takes it to f8 so f5.6 would be tricky!

As many lenses are sharpest when stopped down a couple of stops, I thought f11 would be a good compromise (I understand that diffraction kicks in around here on the 5D3 but only if you look for it in shots taken beyond, say, f16 - cue the naysayers on that topic!). Clearly depth of field isn't an issue but maximising sharpness/detail was, hence the stopping down. The moon was very bright but you're still shooting through an awful lot of atmosphere which will soften the image. At ISO 320 I wouldn't really have any noise to worry about and with it tripod mounted, I manually focused in Liveview and set things to mirror lock-up, 10sec timer to allow most vibration to dampen down and IS mode 3, crossed my fingers and the rest is history.

Hope that clarifies things.

Guy.


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## CarlTN (Sep 18, 2013)

GuyF said:


> RPT - ah, but you forget the 500mm is f4 and a 2x TC takes it to f8 so f5.6 would be tricky!
> 
> As many lenses are sharpest when stopped down a couple of stops, I thought f11 would be a good compromise (I understand that diffraction kicks in around here on the 5D3 but only if you look for it in shots taken beyond, say, f16 - cue the naysayers on that topic!). Clearly depth of field isn't an issue but maximising sharpness/detail was, hence the stopping down. The moon was very bright but you're still shooting through an awful lot of atmosphere which will soften the image. At ISO 320 I wouldn't really have any noise to worry about and with it tripod mounted, I manually focused in Liveview and set things to mirror lock-up, 10sec timer to allow most vibration to dampen down and IS mode 3, crossed my fingers and the rest is history.
> 
> ...



I would have done it similarly!


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## rpt (Sep 19, 2013)

GuyF said:


> RPT - ah, but you forget the 500mm is f4 and a 2x TC takes it to f8 so f5.6 would be tricky!
> 
> As many lenses are sharpest when stopped down a couple of stops, I thought f11 would be a good compromise (I understand that diffraction kicks in around here on the 5D3 but only if you look for it in shots taken beyond, say, f16 - cue the naysayers on that topic!). Clearly depth of field isn't an issue but maximising sharpness/detail was, hence the stopping down. The moon was very bright but you're still shooting through an awful lot of atmosphere which will soften the image. At ISO 320 I wouldn't really have any noise to worry about and with it tripod mounted, I manually focused in Liveview and set things to mirror lock-up, 10sec timer to allow most vibration to dampen down and IS mode 3, crossed my fingers and the rest is history.
> 
> ...


Ah! Clean forgot about the 2x. Thanks for the detailed description. Still waiting for the rains to abate. Yesterday I got caught in a downpour and was drenched through and through! The darn monsoon does not want to leave! Well, at least the atmosphere is getting a scrubbing 

Hope to post moon shots when the clouds roll out.


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## Vern (Oct 1, 2013)

takesome1 said:


> A good solid monopod, it makes it easier to carry and hold.
> A Gimbal type head like Wimberley's WH-200, RRS makes a nice one as well for tripod work.
> Tripod legs sturdy enough to support this.


I use a RRS L-bracket and two clamps to attach the Wimberly side-kick to a Gitzo monopod. IMO the advantage of a gimbal type head is the same on a monopod as a tripod - no lens flop and a lot easier to direct the lens at the target - especially for birds above your head. Here are a couple of shots of the kit w the 600II attached to a 5DMKIII. (I prefer the MKIII to the 1Dx for wildlife b/c of the silent shutter mode).


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 1, 2013)

Vern said:


> I use a RRS L-bracket and two clamps to attach the Wimberly side-kick to a Gitzo monopod. IMO the advantage of a gimbal type head is the same on a monopod as a tripod - no lens flop and a lot easier to direct the lens at the target - especially for birds above your head.



I'll have to give that a try. Since I have the RRS leveling base with clamp on my tripod (to switch between gimbal and BH-55), my RRS side gimbal already has a dovetail on the bottom, so I can just lock that into the clamp on my monopod head.


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## Vern (Oct 2, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Vern said:
> 
> 
> > I use a RRS L-bracket and two clamps to attach the Wimberly side-kick to a Gitzo monopod. IMO the advantage of a gimbal type head is the same on a monopod as a tripod - no lens flop and a lot easier to direct the lens at the target - especially for birds above your head.
> ...



That should work fine. The L-bracket creates a bit more offset than needed but the side gimbal should come out centered above the monopod (I think). I have the full RRS gimbal w the leveling base, so haven't tried that on a monopod (even I might consider that overkill). I suggested to Wimberley that they consider a right angle bracket for the side-kick for just this purpose - they 'put it on the list'.


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