# ND Filter questions



## JRPhotos (May 20, 2016)

Hi,

I have a few ND circular filters, but I'm looking at the mountable rectangular ones. I'm interested in the ND Grads, .6 or so. I like the ability to slide the graduation up or down depending on the horizon. 

I don't know where to start, what's a good brand/quality filter? Can I get one brand of filter and use it on a different brand mount?


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## eli452 (May 20, 2016)

Try the Lee brand, http://www.leefilters.com/


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## ahsanford (May 20, 2016)

[cracks knuckles] 

*Build your system decision around your widest planned-to-be-used focal length* or you may spend money on a system/holder that vignettes (i.e. hardware is in field of view!) for your chosen FL. That's your first move.

If you shoot landscapes at 24mm FF or longer and all your lenses have front filter threads, just about any system will work.

I shoot down to 16mm on my 5D3 and the Lee Filters 100mm system is a wonderful call for that. This (or something like it, Hitech and others have systems as well) is what many folks use for general landscape work -- a frame/ring threads on to your lens's filter threads, and depending on the system, you bolt/slide/snap a holder on to it for your 4x4 / 4x6 filters. With the Lee 100mm system, I can stack two 4x4 / 4x6 filters with zero vignetting at 16mm, or I can screw in a huge 105mm CPL in front of those two filters and go vignette-free from 20mm on. You don't have to use Lee, but staying in their somewhat-industry-standard 4x4 / 4x6 (100mm square NDs and 100mm x 150mm grads) I believe puts you in the largest filter ecosystem. In most cases (read online before you buy) you can slide one company's square/rectangular filters into another's holder. This gives you more options and can contain costs. *Highly recommended to stay in the 4x6 world if you can*, but if your FL needs are more demanding, keep reading.

If you shoot wider than 16mm, chances are you won't have front filter threads (some do exist), there is a built-in hood in the way, and/or your field of view is simply too large to front filter with 4x4 / 4x6 filters. You are left to choose between one of two options: an outrigger setup in which a sleeve mounts on the outer barrel of the lens or you go with a rapid-prototyped / 3D printed slip-on holder for just your specific lens. Going to a larger outrigger setup is a bit more work, but *buying to a bigger ultra-ultrawide setup right out of the gate is a way to future-proof your filter system* if you ever want to buy (say) an 11-24 f/4L someday.


For the outrigger setups, compatibility with specific lenses should be verified -- be sure to read up on if your lens is compatible with it. The two biggest ones are the Lee SW150 system and the Wonderpana system. Be advised that physics is somewhat unkind here, and the filters get really big and can be expensive. I don't use these systems, but a number of folks on this forum do. 


3D printed lens-specific slip-on holders are the budget play, and YMMV with how they work. I've read of a few on Petapixel, and it's a very small cottage industry in which someone with an RP machine spits them out on the cheap. Search "filter holder [lens focal range, e.g. 14-24] 3d print" and you'll get some hits.

You also can hold grads with your hand. 

- A


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## ahsanford (May 20, 2016)

Oh, and Lee has a handy dandy "What do I need" wizard to get your started -- and again, the widest lens you intend to filter should drive that conversation:

http://www.leefilters.com/index.php/camera/system-match

(Lee's website (see prior links) is pretty solid, just skim the PDF for the system you are considering and everything should be in there.)



Hitech has a holder overview here:
http://www.formatt-hitech.com/learn-holder-systems

B&H's overview for Hitech is fairly comprehensive, too:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/hands-review/neutral-density-and-beyond-formatt-hitech-filter-lineup


- A


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## JRPhotos (Jun 7, 2016)

Thank you for your very helpful information.

What I want to do is this: I want to slow the shutter speed down of a beach which I need a ND for but I want the sky to be darkened as well but differently than the water, so I'd have to use two filters and this sytsem seems to give me the control that I'd need.


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## ahsanford (Jun 7, 2016)

JRPhotos said:


> Thank you for your very helpful information.
> 
> What I want to do is this: I want to slow the shutter speed down of a beach which I need a ND for but I want the sky to be darkened as well but differently than the water, so I'd have to use two filters and this sytsem seems to give me the control that I'd need.



Then the logic is simple: You need to able to stack an ND grad fllter and an ND filter. There are two main ways to do that:

1) You need a two-slot system with an ND and an ND grad in place, or 

2) You can put a circular ND directly on your lens (it doesn't really care about up/down/location) and use a one-slot holder for an ND grad. 

Any holder system (with huge caveat on your widest focal length, see my long post above) will offer you the ability to do this either way.

Of the two options i just gave you, I prefer the former (a two slot holder) for two main reasons:


If you go with a holder for both filters, you can easily take the ND out at any time. If you are just using a (say) 2-3 stop ND, it doesn't really matter -- you can still focus, check your exposure, etc. with LiveView and be fine. But when you step up to a 10 stop ND / big stopper, it effectively blackens the frame and LiveView (and the even the regular optical viewfinder) goes to hell. So most people I've spoken to frame/focus/set exposure _without_ the big stopper, then the big stopper is added and the exposure time is multiplied by 2^10 = 1,024 with the final shot.


Buying a circular ND only works for one diameter filter ring, so you either have to buy more than one for different lenses, or you have to buy oversized and use step down rings for your various lenses. This is a secondary consideration to my first bullet above, though. If you plan to use a 10 stop filter, you pretty much have to slide it in and out.

And again, *pick the system based on the widest focal length you want to use it with*. The #1 most likely way these systems let you down will be by leaving hardware in your field of view, which is 100% avoidable if you do your homework.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jun 7, 2016)

A reference for what I mean about 'putting the big stopper in last' is here:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=21554.msg419861#msg419861

That goes through it step by step. It's not perfect and the forum certainly highlighted a few wrinkles differently, so keep that reading that page for other perspectives.

- A


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## wsmith96 (Jun 7, 2016)

For rectangular filters, most people choose the Lee system. Singh-Ray is also another quality brand but can be quite expensive. Another to consider is Formatt-Hitech, but some say it puts a noticeable color cast on your image, where other's don't seem to have an issue with it. It really comes down to your budget as any photography accessory comes in cheap to very expensive. With filters, you usually get what you pay for.

Lee has a great webpage filled with information and recommendations to help you get started. Here's a weblink to their system selector: http://www.leefilters.com/index.php/camera/system-match


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## Halfrack (Jun 8, 2016)

http://2filter.com - a great resource for all things square and rectangular.

There are different systems but 4x4/4x6 filters really come in 2 thicknesses, 2mm and 4mm, and filters should work between systems without issue. So don't be afraid of mixing Lee, Hitech, and all the others into a system that works for you.

+1 on figuring out how wide you'll be going, the 14-24 and 11-24 lenses are special cases and generally take custom fitted bits and the cost per filter for those lenses is high. Note that with Lee, there are wide angle versions of the rings, which are great until you have a lens that barrel fully retracts and the ring hits the front of the lens.

I originally got the Formatt version, but ended up getting a Lee system as well - mostly due to the wide angle hood setup and the ability to do filters off axis from each other using the stacking adapter.

Graduated filters come in 3 types, hard, soft and reverse - and what ever you do don't buy a pre-bundled set (.3, .6, .9). I'd do a .6 and maybe a 1.2 of any particular style.

The NiSi filters are more recent and have been getting good reviews.


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## ahsanford (Jun 8, 2016)

Halfrack said:


> +1 on figuring out how wide you'll be going, the 14-24 and 11-24 lenses are special cases and generally take custom fitted bits and the cost per filter for those lenses is high. Note that with Lee, there are wide angle versions of the rings, which are great until you have a lens that barrel fully retracts and the ring hits the front of the lens.



Interesting -- that's news to me. What lenses do this? Shouldn't the filter threads always be the most prominent element of the lens? 

- A


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## Halfrack (Jun 8, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Halfrack said:
> 
> 
> > +1 on figuring out how wide you'll be going, the 14-24 and 11-24 lenses are special cases and generally take custom fitted bits and the cost per filter for those lenses is high. Note that with Lee, there are wide angle versions of the rings, which are great until you have a lens that barrel fully retracts and the ring hits the front of the lens.
> ...



Yes, the filter threads are the most prominent element (furthest out) but the difference between the WA and normal rings are the WA actually recess behind the filter threads to bring the filters closer to the lens. So a lens that has a barrel element with filter threads that moves in/out can be impacted by this - and the fix is to buy the same filter thread ring in a non-wide angle model.


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## ahsanford (Jun 8, 2016)

Halfrack said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Halfrack said:
> ...



Wow, very interesting. I use my 77 WA ring often as it works on my 16-35 f/4L IS, 24-70 f/2.8L I, 24-70 f/4L IS.

How many / what kind of lenses have sliding outer barrels that are decoupled from their filter rings? That seems pretty rare. I'm not doubting you at all, so much as I am wondering which lenses do this.

- A


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