# Rumoured Canon EOS Rs Specifications [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Dec 4, 2019)

> We have received another set of specifications for the upcoming high-megapixel EOS R body, we dub it the “EOS Rs” for now. Canon may call it something else. The source claims to have shot with a prototype recently and that the plan is to announce the new camera in February 2020.
> *Canon EOS Rs Specifications:*
> 
> 75mp full-frame CMOS
> ...



Continue reading...


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## privatebydesign (Dec 4, 2019)

If that is close I will be getting one. 75mp, DR, weather sealed.

I'd prefer a tilt screen than a flip screen but am comfortable within my own mind to know Canon don't care what I, as an individual, want...


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## Kit. (Dec 4, 2019)

No mention of IBIS.

Not 5D-series ergonomics? Meh. However, let's see what that joystick can do.


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## vjlex (Dec 4, 2019)

Hopefully 1) GPS will be included in this one and 2) they can do at least a little better than the R for FPS.


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## Fran Decatta (Dec 4, 2019)

I hope they let down the resolution. 75mpx raws will be heavy as hell and, as a wedding photographer, Im more than happy with the 30 mpx that gives the eos R actually

(I add this due I didn't explain well myself in that original message):

I didn't explain well myself on the coment. It is a good camera, of course, I like a lot all of what I'm reading here and is really appealing. I also do some architecture works and I know that those 75 mpx will be really welcome to architecture/product/fashion photographers.

All I really want is a double SD camera with equilibrated specs like eos R is, as they compare (may be I''ll have to wait until a future R mk2). But this one, is a very good option.

I really love to work with canon, and I can feel that the "perfect camera" for our (wedding photographers) workflow is closer than I expect. This time is for landscape,product and fashion, may be the next one will be to us 

Add: Is also exciting to see the way Canon is getting with the new mount and technologies, good times are coming.


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## colorblinded (Dec 4, 2019)

If the price isn't too far off from the 5DSR's launch price I will be really interested. If it has IBIS this will probably be a definite buy.

75mp will be nice when needed but the medium and small RAW will probably come in handy a lot for me.


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## privatebydesign (Dec 4, 2019)

Fran Decatta said:


> I hope they let down the resolution. 75mpx raws will be heavy as hell and, as a wedding photographer, Im more than happy with the 30 mpx that gives the eos R actually


Then the whole point of the camera is not for you. Every model can't fit every use or user case, there hasn't been a 'best' camera for a long time.


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## Jasonmc89 (Dec 4, 2019)

Sounds bloody good to me! If it can match the EOS R in FPS with 75mp and good dynamic range then that’s impressive.


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## Jasonmc89 (Dec 4, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> If that is close I will be getting one. 75mp, DR, weather sealed.
> 
> I'd prefer a tilt screen than a flip screen but am comfortable within my own mind to know Canon don't care what I, as an individual, want...


Why would you prefer a tilt screen when a flippy one does the same thing, plus more?


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## keithcooper (Dec 4, 2019)

Fran Decatta said:


> I hope they let down the resolution. 75mpx raws will be heavy as hell and, as a wedding photographer, Im more than happy with the 30 mpx that gives the eos R actually


Ah, what you want is not the camera here... 
What I would like as an architectural photographer is definitely not a camera optimised for your usage patterns. 

Hopefully at some time in 2020, we can both be happy with what appears...


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## digibane (Dec 4, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> If that is close I will be getting one. 75mp, DR, weather sealed.
> 
> I'd prefer a tilt screen than a flip screen but am comfortable within my own mind to know Canon don't care what I, as an individual, want...


I do like fully articulating screens, just that L Brackets don't do well with them. What's your gripe with them that makes you prefer tilting screens?


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## peters (Dec 4, 2019)

Souns to good to be true. Count me in


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## Wallybud (Dec 4, 2019)

Fran Decatta said:


> I hope they let down the resolution. 75mpx raws will be heavy as hell and, as a wedding photographer, Im more than happy with the 30 mpx that gives the eos R actually



just shoot the wedding in mRaw or sRaw. That’s what I’ll be doing ha. Then for certain portraits you can bump the res if you’d like


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## Wallybud (Dec 4, 2019)

I don’t think they’ll announce IBIS until they announce if the 1D will have it. Which I think it will. They’ll keep that announcement till it’s the right time


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## Architect1776 (Dec 4, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Love the resolution at 75mp. Wish there was IBIS though for my manual camera lenses and other manual optics.
OH well it is tempting to me now and this might do it.


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## LesC (Dec 4, 2019)

peters said:


> Souns to good to be true. Count me in



I suspect the price will be the deciding factor for many. I can see it being 3600 $ or £


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## privatebydesign (Dec 4, 2019)

digibane said:


> I do like fully articulating screens, just that L Brackets don't do well with them. What's your gripe with them that makes you prefer tilting screens?


As you say they don't work so well with L brackets, which I use (so I don't care about IBIS in this camera) and I don't like the orientation of the screen when it is off the side of the camera, to me it sticks out perilously meaning my sight line is messed up and it doesn't naturally blend flat if you knock it/it gets pushed or hit.

I like the Fujifilm GFX100 style where it comes out at the top, or the bottom, or a side to get a low angle and portrait orientation, after that I like the M5 version that comes out at the top or bottom, I really dislike the 80D/M50 style of swing out to the side to tilt.


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## Maximilian (Dec 4, 2019)

Sounds like a great camera, if true.
Not my choice as I am hoping for a 30 MP brother of it.

But I'd be very much interested in how much Canon could improve the EVF performance.
As long as they don't make a big step here in moving and panning performance, I'd prefer an 5D Mk5


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Dec 4, 2019)

Really hoping to finally get IBIS in this.

With 75MP, are all those pixels really worth that much without IBIS to ensure that you will really get pixel level sharpness at that resolution (without carrying around a tripod for every shot.)


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## criscokkat (Dec 4, 2019)

Maximilian said:


> Sounds like a great camera, if true.
> Not my choice as I am hoping for a 30 MP brother of it.
> 
> But I'd be very much interested in how much Canon could improve the EVF performance.
> As long as they don't make a big step here in moving and panning performance, I'd prever an 5D Mk5


It really depends on what price range this comes in at. If it comes in under 4k I'm not sure if there will be a direct 5dIV replacement. 

If it is EOS-R like speeds, it might mean 8-10 fps. However that doesn't have to mean it's 3 fps slower when tracking like the R (and RP are). The 90d/M6II are just as fast while tracking, and the previous versions slowed significantly when turning options on to maximize tracking. The previous 5dIV was released with an MSRP of 3499 and the 5ds/r was a few hundred more. Since the Sony AIVr is 3499, I'd expect the new camera to come in within a few hundred of that. 

If it can hit 9 FPS but experience no significant sped loss while tracking it will match up extrememly well with Sony's new camera. And with small and medium RAW modes those with concern about file sizes can be happy.


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## Dverb (Dec 4, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> If that is close I will be getting one. 75mp, DR, weather sealed.
> 
> I'd prefer a tilt screen than a flip screen but am comfortable within my own mind to know Canon don't care what I, as an individual, want...



I would have loved to see the resolution even higher than 75 mp but with weather sealing and attention focused on DR this sounds like it will be my next camera for landscapes. Would love to have the resolution of a Phase 1 but refuse to pay those prices.

Hopefully the ergonomics are good and nothing interferes with an L bracket.


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## bestimage (Dec 4, 2019)

Two comments;
1) Hope they throw the option of 16 bit along with 14 bit
2) don’t know the image circle of RF lenses, mount is bigger so image circle may be little bigger, having said that canon may come up with larger than 35mm sensor.

Any thoughts or comment?


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## Quackator (Dec 4, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Why would you prefer a tilt screen when a flippy one does the same thing, plus more?



Because it doesn't do the same.
Mount a L-bracket and try to flip out the screen.
See?


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## Dverb (Dec 4, 2019)

bestimage said:


> Two comments;
> 1) Hope they throw the option of 16 bit along with 14 bit
> 2) don’t know the image circle of RF lenses, mount is bigger so image circle may be little bigger, having said that canon may come up with larger than 35mm sensor.
> 
> Any thoughts or comment?



Torn on the idea of a bigger sensor. From a positive side I would love to capture more light but if I need to replace my lenses and filters to work with a larger sensor then I might consider a non-canon medium format instead.


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## unfocused (Dec 4, 2019)

Sounds interesting, but I'm a bit skeptical or at least surprised.

I wonder how someone who shot with a test camera would know what generation the processor inside was. 

I wonder why you would have a joystick on an "R" since the touchscreen does the same thing. If it is similar in size and ergonomics to the current R, it seems like that would be just one more control crammed onto an already crowded backside. On the other hand, for those working with gloves on, maybe having a joystick as an alternative would be a good idea. 

If true, it sounds as though Canon is continuing to refine the ergonomics and features of the R, so that by the time the "Rx" comes out it will have the kinks worked out.


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## Dverb (Dec 4, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> As you say they don't work so well with L brackets, which I use (so I don't care about IBIS in this camera)



I assume from your comments that you don’t care about IBIS in this camera as you would be using the camera with a tripod. 
For landscapes typically I am on the tripod but there are a couple landscape tripod scenarios where I would like extra stabilization - when the tripod is on spongy ground (where I currently use a timer release so I can get myself and family far enough way when the shutter opens) and when the tripod is in the middle of a stream with water running around the tripod legs.

For these scenarios while using non-IS lenses like the 24-70 and 11-24 it would be a positive to have IBIS, though I have managed so far without IBIS.


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## Quackator (Dec 4, 2019)

5D style grip and ergonomics, please!


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## Dverb (Dec 4, 2019)

unfocused said:


> I wonder why you would have a joystick on an "R" since the touchscreen does the same thing. If it is similar in size and ergonomics to the current R, it seems like that would be just one more control crammed onto an already crowded backside. On the other hand, for those working with gloves on, maybe having a joystick as an alternative would be a good...



As a landscape camera, outdoor use and winter use can be assumed, so the glove use of a joystick would be a definite plus.


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## privatebydesign (Dec 4, 2019)

Dverb said:


> I would have loved to see the resolution even higher than 75 mp but with weather sealing and attention focused on DR this sounds like it will be my next camera for landscapes. Would love to have the resolution of a Phase 1 but refuse to pay those prices.
> 
> Hopefully the ergonomics are good and nothing interferes with an L bracket.


Even if you get the MP of a Phase One you can't get the sensor size unless you stitch, which is the main reason I stitch! Nothing bests sensor size and true 16 bit RAW for tonality in big prints.


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## dtaylor (Dec 4, 2019)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Really hoping to finally get IBIS in this.
> 
> With 75MP, are all those pixels really worth that much without IBIS to ensure that you will really get pixel level sharpness at that resolution (without carrying around a tripod for every shot.)



Do 90D or M6 II users have to carry a tripod for every shot? Their pixel density is the same as an 83mp FF.


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## mpb001 (Dec 4, 2019)

It sounds like a great camera, however, I am not necessarily interested in the high MP. I am more interested in seeing the appearance of IBIS though, because it will set the stage for future models to have it.


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## kurt765 (Dec 4, 2019)

“Focused on dynamic range” 
I’ll believe that when I see it. Has Canon ever acknowledged that they are behind in this department?


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## dtaylor (Dec 4, 2019)

bestimage said:


> Two comments;
> 1) Hope they throw the option of 16 bit along with 14 bit



Unless they're about to blow well passed Sony in DR 14 vs 16 bit doesn't matter. Current sensors are not limited by ADC bit depth but by read noise.

Of course it would be great if they did accomplish this. I could spend 2020 in Sony forums complaining about their old sensors and horrible DR


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## dtaylor (Dec 4, 2019)

kurt765 said:


> “Focused on dynamic range”
> I’ll believe that when I see it. Has Canon ever acknowledged that they are behind in this department?


You wouldn't acknowledge that you were ever behind until you were ahead


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## privatebydesign (Dec 4, 2019)

Dverb said:


> I assume from your comments that you don’t care about IBIS in this camera as you would be using the camera with a tripod.
> For landscapes typically I am on the tripod but there are a couple landscape tripod scenarios where I would like extra stabilization - when the tripod is on spongy ground (where I currently use a timer release so I can get myself and family far enough way when the shutter opens) and when the tripod is in the middle of a stream with water running around the tripod legs.
> 
> For these scenarios while using non-IS lenses like the 24-70 and 11-24 it would be a positive to have IBIS, though I have managed so far without IBIS.


For my uses I'd be thinking either tripod and/or high speed discharge flashes (or most probably both) so yes you are correct, I am not fussed about IBIS. Of course if it had it I would find uses for it, and I am not anti IBIS, I am just ambivalent whether this particular model has it or not.

Certainly my decision to buy it is not dependent on if it has IBIS or it doesn't.


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## docsmith (Dec 4, 2019)

Fran Decatta said:


> I hope they let down the resolution. 75mpx raws will be heavy as hell and, as a wedding photographer, Im more than happy with the 30 mpx that gives the eos R actually



So, I agree with the other comments that a 75 MP camera may not be the camera for someone concerned about memory size. I really wonder if this is an underappreciated benefit of Canon. I am not sure about Nikon files, but when I've seen them reported, Fuji and Sony files are typically 2x the resolution. Canon tends to be ~1x the resolution and then they increase with increasing ISO. For example, the A7RIII has 42.4 MP and 81.9 MB files, even at base ISO. 

75 MP is something I would like to have for the occasional photo. But, usually the ~30 MP range is just fine for me. What I will be looking at is what sRAW and mRAW are like? Is one of those in the ~30 MB range. If so, I may pick up this camera. Otherwise, I'll probably rent it once or twice.


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## bergstrom (Dec 4, 2019)

can't wait to get it in 2023 after the price is affordable for us lay men.


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## transpo1 (Dec 4, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> If that is close I will be getting one. 75mp, DR, weather sealed.
> 
> I'd prefer a tilt screen than a flip screen but am comfortable within my own mind to know Canon don't care what I, as an individual, want...



I sure hope they put a Quick Control Dial with Touch Pad implementation on it. This was always one of my favorite features of the 5DII / III bodies and without it, it just doesn't feel like a Canon camera...Sony even ripped off their own version of the Quick Control Dial. Bring it back, Canon!


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## mb66energy (Dec 4, 2019)

While I think that 20 MPix on FF are a lot for most applikations I like the idea to have roughly our times the resolution ... 18 MPix with RGGB pixel quadruplets for full color image pixels (not calculated from neighboured pixels) is GREAT if they do it as a smaller RAW (smaller file size) format or just do it afterwards with DPP.
But I think about dual ISO with such a vast amount of pixels: Very good (spatial) resolution PLUS large tonal palette!
And with 18 Mpix final images you could do quad ISO or dual ISO on green subpixels and single ISO with the R, B ones!

Just if that thing has only 5 frames per second (what I expect due to the large data volume and maybe some noise optimized high stability/precision ADC machinery) it would be a great machine ... for all that ultra high resolution work in different dimensions - image pixels or fine tonal representation of the original scene.

Maybe I have too much phantasy but on the other hand: Why not? Camera market should move into crazy and amazing tools because that is the only way to gain market if there is a way.


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## [email protected] (Dec 4, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Looks like a good development and release from Canon.

This is looking good and strong from Canon to make a big dent in the FF Mirrorless market (Their APS ML's not bad either) and hopefully pile on pressure on Nikon to up their game in the APS & FF ML market along with getting their Z (FF & DX) lenses out (expect them to announce a 60mp Z8 sometime in mid 2020).


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## jaayres20 (Dec 4, 2019)

I am personally extremely disappointed that the Touch Bar is being removed. I use it regularly on my R and find it to be the easiest way to adjust Kelvin WB quickly. I just don't understand why they would add a joystick???? There is no reason for it.


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## canonnews (Dec 4, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


I wonder if they meant the AF-ON touch sensitive joystick on the 1DX Mark III? or the actual joystick. To make special mention of it seems to indicate it would be the AF-ON joystick..


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## woodman411 (Dec 4, 2019)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Really hoping to finally get IBIS in this. With 75MP, are all those pixels really worth that much without IBIS to ensure that you will really get pixel level sharpness at that resolution (without carrying around a tripod for every shot.)



I suspect most people that can afford this body can also afford the RF Trinity, which all come with IS.



kurt765 said:


> “Focused on dynamic range”
> I’ll believe that when I see it. Has Canon ever acknowledged that they are behind in this department?



Yes, when they came out with the 5d4, they acknowledged and addressed it. The 5d4/R sensor DR gap to the rest is negligible.


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## canonnews (Dec 4, 2019)

woodman411 said:


> I suspect most people that can afford this body can also afford the RF Trinity, which all come with IS.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, when they came out with the 5d4, they acknowledged and addressed it. The 5d4/R sensor DR gap to the rest is negligible.


even more so with the latest generation as seen by the 90D / M6 Mark II sensor.


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## Fran Decatta (Dec 4, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Then the whole point of the camera is not for you. Every model can't fit every use or user case, there hasn't been a 'best' camera for a long time.



I didn't explain well myself on the coment. It is a good camera, of course, I like a lot all of what I'm reading here and is really appealing. I also do some architecture works and I know that those 75 mpx will be really welcome to architecture/product/fashion photographers.

All I really want is a double SD camera with equilibrated specs like eos R is, as they compare (may be I''ll have to wait until a future R mk2). But this one, is a very good option.

I really love to work with canon, and I can feel that the "perfect" our (wedding photographers) workflow is closer than I expect. This time is for landscape,product and fashion, may be the next one will be to us 

Add: Is also exciting to see the way Canon is getting with the new mount and technologies, good times are coming.


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## Fran Decatta (Dec 4, 2019)

keithcooper said:


> Ah, what you want is not the camera here...
> What I would like as an architectural photographer is definitely not a camera optimised for your usage patterns.
> 
> Hopefully at some time in 2020, we can both be happy with what appears...




Totally agree with that, I also do some architecture works, and I can apreciate that lot of architecture (also product, landscape and fashion) photographers will be really happy with that.

Hope the same too. Was a shame that the first eos R lack of second SD slot, otherwise, it would be perfect. But each one have a needs and must be respected, of course!


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Dec 4, 2019)

woodman411 said:


> I suspect most people that can afford this body can also afford the RF Trinity, which all come with IS.


That's all well and good, but how about people like me that prefer to use the RF 50mm 1.2, and I'm eyeing up the 85mm 1.2, and whatever wide angle f1.2 they come out with?

I want an image stabilized f1.2 prime.


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## StoicalEtcher (Dec 4, 2019)

In general, I'd share unfocused's scepticism on this story (post #25).

Having said that, I don't have an R/RP myself, but if this is to follow the same form factor, is there room for dual card slots - or does this suggest a (slightly) different form?

Just curious, Stoical.


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## wockawocka (Dec 4, 2019)

Put it this way, if there's a lossless Mraw option (pixel binning) and the burst speed is the same or greater than the Eos R then I've found myself a new wedding cam and I won't wait for the next version.

4-5 FPS and a 16 shot buffer then forget it.


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## unfocused (Dec 4, 2019)

StoicalEtcher said:


> In general, I'd share unfocused's scepticism on this story (post #25).
> 
> Having said that, I don't have an R/RP myself, but if this is to follow the same form factor, is there room for dual card slots - or does this suggest a (slightly) different form?
> 
> Just curious, Stoical.


Just looking at my R, I don't think adding an extra card slot would make a lot of difference -- assuming it is a second SD slot.


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## TMHKR (Dec 4, 2019)

kraats said:


> I have a flippy screen and an L-bracket. I can use the flippy screen like it is intended to.


With 80D I doubt, unless you have some specialized L-bracket and not the generic one.


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## wojtek (Dec 4, 2019)

a tsunami alert for all of those who think that buying a high megapixel camera is so cool idea. I've been using 5dsr (50 megapixel) for the past three years and I need to warn you that there will be some consequences. A financial consequences I mean if you are serious about the quality. First you will replace half of your lenses as you will notice a lot of underperforming ones in terms of sharpness and chromatic aberration. Then you will buy the most expensive computers (imac and macbook pro if you are a mac lover) as your old ones will be too slow, wasting in average two hours of your time per day if you shooting raw. And for those of you who think shooting medium raw is such an excellent idea I would like to say that I tough that too until I saw a very annoying color difference in blacks (greenish blacks) that appear only in smaller than full size raws. Here you go. Not to mention the storage. Prepare some more cash and you are good to go. The good side is the quality. Once you can afford all those you will never go back. w


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Dec 4, 2019)

Sounds good. Hope they can get the IBIS squared away before then. I'm hoping they don't go cheap on the EVF. High resolution, magnifaction and extra eye relief is what's required. Give me an S1R level cam with DPAF and I'm on board.


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## Juangrande (Dec 4, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Why would you prefer a tilt screen when a flippy one does the same thing, plus more?


I would also prefer a tilt. The reason is I only need it if the camera is low to the ground or high on a tripod and I want the screen in line with the back of the camera not off to the left side. An articulating screen is more suited for video and this is not a camera I would choose for video. I consider this a great studio camera.


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## slclick (Dec 4, 2019)

Quackator said:


> Because it doesn't do the same.
> Mount a L-bracket and try to flip out the screen.
> See?


This is the case on certain L brackets but when you buy a well designed model such as from RRS it will work.


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## slclick (Dec 4, 2019)

jaayres20 said:


> I am personally extremely disappointed that the Touch Bar is being removed. I use it regularly on my R and find it to be the easiest way to adjust Kelvin WB quickly. I just don't understand why they would add a joystick???? There is no reason for it.


It hasn't been announced yet so please don't be disappointed, it's just hurts knowing folks are out there unhappy.


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## slclick (Dec 4, 2019)

*This might be the body to replace my 5D3. *


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## criscokkat (Dec 4, 2019)

TMHKR said:


> With 80D I doubt, unless you have some specialized L-bracket and not the generic one.


They already exist and work well. They just stick out forward and then have the bracket going up, so any attachments to the L mount are slightly forward, or they have a cutout to allow you to fold it out. Just google L bracket 80D or R.


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## keithcooper (Dec 4, 2019)

wojtek said:


> a tsunami alert for all of those who think that buying a high megapixel camera is so cool idea. I've been using 5dsr (50 megapixel) for the past three years and I need to warn you that there will be some consequences. A financial consequences I mean if you are serious about the quality. First you will replace half of your lenses as you will notice a lot of underperforming ones in terms of sharpness and chromatic aberration. Then you will buy the most expensive computers (imac and macbook pro if you are a mac lover) as your old ones will be too slow, wasting in average two hours of your time per day if you shooting raw. And for those of you who think shooting medium raw is such an excellent idea I would like to say that I tough that too until I saw a very annoying color difference in blacks (greenish blacks) that appear only in smaller than full size raws. Here you go. Not to mention the storage. Prepare some more cash and you are good to go. The good side is the quality. Once you can afford all those you will never go back. w


Not so fast ;-)

- I use a 5Ds for architectural work (and industrial/commercial)
Even old lenses look better with more MP - I use several adapted lenses from the 70's/80's and this is even easier with mirrorless. A rising tide does float all boats
My computer is a souped up 2010 Mac Pro (OK, with 2x 4k monitors)
Disks are cheap - as is extra RAM
My most commonly used lenses for architecture (the TS-E17,24ii) date from 2009
I recently shot several thousand detailed product shots (surgical instruments) using a 24-70 2.8L that I bought in 2003
My TS-E90 I also used for that product work dates from 1998

Tsunami? Nope barely a ripple on a breezy day ;-)
If you've been careful building up kit over the years then it needn't be too bad.

However, if you're currently using a 500D with one of the older 18-55 variants then yes it's a change


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## Cochese (Dec 4, 2019)

Fran Decatta said:


> I hope they let down the resolution. 75mpx raws will be heavy as hell and, as a wedding photographer, Im more than happy with the 30 mpx that gives the eos R actually


Sounds like this isn't the camera for you... At all.


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## Maximilian (Dec 4, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> It really depends on what price range
> ...
> And with small and medium RAW modes those with concern about file sizes can be happy.


My biggest concern is that I am not happy with the speed/refresh/panning/blackout performance of an EVF as of today. 
I see the potential of EOS R/RF system but Canon has to tap the full potential yet.
Until then for my type of photography (kids/sports/wildlife) OVF outperforms the EVF by some margin.

About MP count:
And why downsample instead of having fewer but better native pixels? I prefer the latter. 30 MP is more than enough to me.
You also still lose time and calculation power while readout and downsampling the many 75 MP. Not needed here.


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## digito23 (Dec 4, 2019)

How about full frame 4k–no cropping and IBS?


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## Ozarker (Dec 4, 2019)

Meanwhile, I'll keep my main focus on glass. I don't think my PC can handle files that large efficiently. It would be awesome to own a camera like that, but I'm out until I can afford more computing power and storage. 30mph suits me fine for now. Glass, glass,glass. The R is already near perfect for me.


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## ColinJR (Dec 4, 2019)

This is pretty much exactly what I want. Fingers crossed that the sensor can keep up with Sony's A7R IV. This is by far my biggest concern. I had that camera briefly before returning to the R, and although the image quality was incredible I really didn't care for the handling. The R ain't perfect, but feels so right to me... A joystick(?) replacing the Mfn bar is music to my ears. 

I can live without IBIS, full frame 4K and all the other crap people complain about on the R.


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## danielguillamon (Dec 4, 2019)

wojtek said:


> a tsunami alert for all of those who think that buying a high megapixel camera is so cool idea. I've been using 5dsr (50 megapixel) for the past three years and I need to warn you that there will be some consequences. A financial consequences I mean if you are serious about the quality. First you will replace half of your lenses as you will notice a lot of underperforming ones in terms of sharpness and chromatic aberration. Then you will buy the most expensive computers (imac and macbook pro if you are a mac lover) as your old ones will be too slow, wasting in average two hours of your time per day if you shooting raw. And for those of you who think shooting medium raw is such an excellent idea I would like to say that I tough that too until I saw a very annoying color difference in blacks (greenish blacks) that appear only in smaller than full size raws. Here you go. Not to mention the storage. Prepare some more cash and you are good to go. The good side is the quality. Once you can afford all those you will never go back. w



But... if you shoot with 75mpx and after export all photos with lightroom (or other), with 20-30mpx in DNG.. ?? you can edit this archives easily


----------



## ColinJR (Dec 4, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> As you say they don't work so well with L brackets, which I use (so I don't care about IBIS in this camera) and I don't like the orientation of the screen when it is off the side of the camera, to me it sticks out perilously meaning my sight line is messed up and it doesn't naturally blend flat if you knock it/it gets pushed or hit.
> 
> I like the Fujifilm GFX100 style where it comes out at the top, or the bottom, or a side to get a low angle and portrait orientation, after that I like the M5 version that comes out at the top or bottom, I really dislike the 80D/M50 style of swing out to the side to tilt.



I’ve grown to like the Canon flip out screen. Would rather have that then a screen just tilts but didn’t allow for odd-angle portrait shooting. Though I’m sure I could live with the Fuji style screens.


----------



## wojtek (Dec 4, 2019)

keithcooper said:


> Not so fast ;-)
> 
> - I use a 5Ds for architectural work (and industrial/commercial)
> Even old lenses look better with more MP - I use several adapted lenses from the 70's/80's and this is even easier with mirrorless. A rising tide does float all boats
> ...



well, I photograph architecture as a full time job and sometimes do products as well. there is a big difference in sharpness between 5Ds and 5Dsr and basically everything else is a consequence of this choice. for example you think that 24-70 2.8L is a sharp lens and I got rid of it when I had my 1Ds MkII for the quality reasons. I just don't think you should be using such good for portraits lens for product shots but happy days if you have the client who pays for the job... I use tilt and shift lenses, the same ones you mentioned, and to be honest it doesn't matter what year the lens was built as for example 90mm ts is one of the sharpest lenses canon made and on the other side of the scale is 45mm ts (mark one) which was a disaster, the worst chromatic aberration canon pro lens ever. talking about computers, well, once you get real busy with the postproduction you will start thinking about it, not to mention the beautiful 27 inch retina displays that are one of the tools to show you what your files are really look like. if you don't have such display, no wonder you don't see the problem. all the best!
w


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## ColinJR (Dec 4, 2019)

bestimage said:


> Two comments;
> 1) Hope they throw the option of 16 bit along with 14 bit
> 2) don’t know the image circle of RF lenses, mount is bigger so image circle may be little bigger, having said that canon may come up with larger than 35mm sensor.
> 
> Any thoughts or comment?



the bigger the better! I have some tilt shifts that would be fine with a slightly larger sensor! And 16 bit? Sign me up! I would probably take better color over a slightly larger sensor though.


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## wojtek (Dec 4, 2019)

danielguillamon said:


> But... if you shoot with 75mpx and after export all photos with lightroom (or other), with 20-30mpx in DNG.. ?? you can edit this archives easily


well... I spent 4 grand on imac and same on laptop and I wish they were quicker... once you have such big files opened, not only ram plays part but the graphic card. switching between couple of pictures is a lot of juggling in terms of computer memory, it slows everything down. if you buy a new mac, do not save on the graphic card, go for the quickest that's available. those are the real problems if you want to have some life after a busy work


----------



## SteveCheetham (Dec 4, 2019)

Juangrande said:


> I would also prefer a tilt. The reason is I only need it if the camera is low to the ground or high on a tripod and I want the screen in line with the back of the camera not off to the left side. An articulating screen is more suited for video and this is not a camera I would choose for video. I consider this a great studio camera.


+1 for this - much prefer a tilty screen than the articulating screen so it's in line with the lens/sensor. Love the one on the little M5.


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## danielguillamon (Dec 4, 2019)

wojtek said:


> well... I spent 4 grand on imac and same on laptop and I wish they were quicker... once you have such big files opened, not only ram plays part but the graphic card. switching between couple of pictures is a lot of juggling in terms of computer memory, it slows everything down. if you buy a new mac, do not save on the graphic card, go for the quickest that's available. those are the real problems if you want to have some life after a busy work



Yes, i know. But i mean, if you change this 75mpx to 20mpx, all images exported to dng and 20mpx, you can edit easily, you dont need the best computer to move 75mpx pics, you can edit with other resolution and save Metadata (XMP) for example in lightroom, with this, you can use after this metadata to export 75mpx if you want.

I think the resolution of 75mpx is not a problem, for me 30 is enought, i no need more and i dont want more, for me, the only important is the dual slot for my wedding photography


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## ColinJR (Dec 4, 2019)

Fran Decatta said:


> I hope they let down the resolution. 75mpx raws will be heavy as hell and, as a wedding photographer, Im more than happy with the 30 mpx that gives the eos R actually



This does not sound like a camera you need... But seriously, I do hope they have some internal scaling modes (for raw files of course) for occasions where the extra resolution hurts more than helps.


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## AlanF (Dec 4, 2019)

I would like a RAW (or CRAW) crop mode, which would cover much of what I do.


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## mk0x55 (Dec 4, 2019)

The rumor sounds like good music to my ears. I hope Canon solved their ever-present *read noise problem* that occurs in the analog signal transmission to their off-chip-ADC. That would be really big to me. *16-bit readout* would be awesome to allow for natively capturing more DR, but I understand that read noise so aparent in shadows might render 16-bit readout unnecessary. I hope it is no longer the case here.
*PixelShift* would be a nice addition. 
Lastly, they might also eliminate the issues of *highlight clipping* as well as *low SNR* in shadows provided long enough exposure times (in landscape & architecture photogrsphy etc.) using a few hardware and bit manipulation tricks... that would be a nice gamechanger (wishful thinking perhaps).
A lot to look forward to; I can highly imagine ordering the "Rs".
(Though if they also released it as a DSLR, I might go for that instead... IBIS or not.)


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## Jasonmc89 (Dec 4, 2019)

Juangrande said:


> I would also prefer a tilt. The reason is I only need it if the camera is low to the ground or high on a tripod and I want the screen in line with the back of the camera not off to the left side. An articulating screen is more suited for video and this is not a camera I would choose for video. I consider this a great studio camera.


I see what you’re saying but with my 80D the flippy screen has been a blessing many times and I shoot 100% stills. Depends what your subject is though I suppose!


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## Jasonmc89 (Dec 4, 2019)

Quackator said:


> Because it doesn't do the same.
> Mount a L-bracket and try to flip out the screen.
> See?


Mount an L bracket the other way? I use an L bracket to get my 80D ground level on a tripod and it’s fine.


----------



## wojtek (Dec 4, 2019)

danielguillamon said:


> Yes, i know. But i mean, if you change this 75mpx to 20mpx, all images exported to dng and 20mpx, you can edit easily, you dont need the best computer to move 75mpx pics, you can edit with other resolution and save Metadata (XMP) for example in lightroom, with this, you can use after this metadata to export 75mpx if you want.
> 
> I think the resolution of 75mpx is not a problem, for me 30 is enought, i no need more and i dont want more, for me, the only important is the dual slot for my wedding photography


I need to check this way you are suggesting via dng. I know that the camera itself sucks at scaling down raws on the go, the greenish blacks are giving a lot of problems if you are bound with very high color reproduction demands so if this scaled down dngs are ok then you may deserve a medal


----------



## ColinJR (Dec 4, 2019)

LesC said:


> I suspect the price will be the deciding factor for many. I can see it being 3600 $ or £



One can hope it competes with the Sony A7R IV... I believe the 5DSR was more expensive when it came out.


----------



## ColinJR (Dec 4, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Sounds interesting, but I'm a bit skeptical or at least surprised.
> 
> I wonder how someone who shot with a test camera would know what generation the processor inside was.
> 
> ...



Yes, gloves, but the biggest issue for me is nose input. A joystick (or trackpad off to the side) would allow me to have the camera disable the touch screen when my eye is up to the EVF and avoid the accidental AF point movement from my nose. Also, every now and then I would like to have the screen facing inward and be able to shoot using the EVF only. Right now this is pretty much impossible unless you're using focus & recompose.


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## reef58 (Dec 4, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Mount an L bracket the other way? I use an L bracket to get my 80D ground level on a tripod and it’s fine.



It depends on the camera, but I don't want to remove the L bracket each time I replace the batteries or remove the memory cards. I haven't removed the L bracket from my 5d4 in months


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## ColinJR (Dec 4, 2019)

jaayres20 said:


> I am personally extremely disappointed that the Touch Bar is being removed. I use it regularly on my R and find it to be the easiest way to adjust Kelvin WB quickly. I just don't understand why they would add a joystick???? There is no reason for it.



You're like, the only one who cares about this... lol. Lots of reasons to add a joystick! Avoiding nose input, moving AF point with gloves on, shooting with the screen facing in...


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## ColinJR (Dec 4, 2019)

slclick said:


> This is the case on certain L brackets but when you buy a well designed model such as from RRS it will work.



The RRS L bracket for the R is not super well designed... Really wish it was a 2-piece design. They did it for the RP, why not the R??? (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻


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## ColinJR (Dec 4, 2019)

Maximilian said:


> My biggest concern is that I am not happy with the speed/refresh/panning/blackout performance of an EVF as of today.
> I see the potential of EOS R/RF system but Canon has to tap the full potential yet.
> Until then for my type of photography (kids/sports/wildlife) OVF outperforms the EVF by some margin.
> 
> ...



Canon should be focusing on a 1D/7D sports-oriented mirrorless like the Sony A9 in addition to the rest of the line, but this is not that camera.


----------



## navastronia (Dec 4, 2019)

ColinJR said:


> Yes, gloves, but the biggest issue for me is nose input. A joystick (or trackpad off to the side) would allow me to have the camera disable the touch screen when my eye is up to the EVF and avoid the accidental AF point movement from my nose. Also, every now and then I would like to have the screen facing inward and be able to shoot using the EVF only. Right now this is pretty much impossible unless you're using focus & recompose.



This may be an unusual thing to do, but to me, the advantage of using a modern camera with multiple programmable settings (on the RP, C1-C3) and dials is to set up my camera so that I rarely, if ever, have to go into a menu or hit the Q button and adjust any setting while I'm shooting. For this reason, I have turned off the touchscreen on the RP and even flipped it around the other way. I don't need it to control autofocus because I use face + eye tracking when there's a person in the frame and back button focus to the center point (and either then track an object or focus + recompose) when there isn't.

Simplicity is a virtue.


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## deleteme (Dec 4, 2019)

Sounds like a heroic camera from the info provided.
IBIS may or may not be present and would be greatly appreciated but even if we have what has been rumored it will be a sharp stick in the eye of the competition.


----------



## deleteme (Dec 4, 2019)

Maximilian said:


> Sounds like a great camera, if true.
> Not my choice as I am hoping for a 30 MP brother of it.
> 
> But I'd be very much interested in how much Canon could improve the EVF performance.
> As long as they don't make a big step here in moving and panning performance, I'd prefer an 5D Mk5


There is a lot of opportunity for them to make great strides. The rumor cites a larger EVF. Couple that with a desire to leapfrog Sony and the possibility of significant performance boost is real.


----------



## deleteme (Dec 4, 2019)

jaayres20 said:


> I am personally extremely disappointed that the Touch Bar is being removed. I use it regularly on my R and find it to be the easiest way to adjust Kelvin WB quickly. I just don't understand why they would add a joystick???? There is no reason for it.


They added a joystick because of the screams from the internet public. Both of the people who did like the touch bar weren't really heard.
I would say that this would be a great opportunity to get an R on sale.


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## privatebydesign (Dec 4, 2019)

wojtek said:


> well, I photograph architecture as a full time job and sometimes do products as well. there is a big difference in sharpness between 5Ds and 5Dsr and basically everything else is a consequence of this choice. for example you think that 24-70 2.8L is a sharp lens and I got rid of it when I had my 1Ds MkII for the quality reasons. I just don't think you should be using such good for portraits lens for product shots but happy days if you have the client who pays for the job... I use tilt and shift lenses, the same ones you mentioned, and to be honest it doesn't matter what year the lens was built as for example 90mm ts is one of the sharpest lenses canon made and on the other side of the scale is 45mm ts (mark one) which was a disaster, the worst chromatic aberration canon pro lens ever. talking about computers, well, once you get real busy with the postproduction you will start thinking about it, not to mention the beautiful 27 inch retina displays that are one of the tools to show you what your files are really look like. if you don't have such display, no wonder you don't see the problem. all the best!
> w


I suspect you haven't seen Keith's website? I don't know anybody who has done larger printing for close viewing and his articles on tilt shift lens use really should be compulsory reading for anybody that eve thinks a T/S lens might be in their bag.


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## deleteme (Dec 4, 2019)

digibane said:


> I do like fully articulating screens, just that L Brackets don't do well with them. What's your gripe with them that makes you prefer tilting screens?


I struggled to find a good bracket earlier as RRS still had not shipped their bracket (which I ordered sight unseen). I ended up with a Kirk bracket which did not allow any useful articulation of the screen.
I then found the ProMedia gear bracket which is outstanding. Full articulation with the bonus of a cold shoe to hold my new CamRanger 2.
Having seen the RRS product I am doubly pleased with my choice.


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## deleteme (Dec 4, 2019)

wojtek said:


> well, I photograph architecture as a full time job and sometimes do products as well. there is a big difference in sharpness between 5Ds and 5Dsr and basically everything else is a consequence of this choice. for example you think that 24-70 2.8L is a sharp lens and I got rid of it when I had my 1Ds MkII for the quality reasons. I just don't think you should be using such good for portraits lens for product shots but happy days if you have the client who pays for the job... I use tilt and shift lenses, the same ones you mentioned, and to be honest it doesn't matter what year the lens was built as for example 90mm ts is one of the sharpest lenses canon made and on the other side of the scale is 45mm ts (mark one) which was a disaster, the worst chromatic aberration canon pro lens ever. talking about computers, well, once you get real busy with the postproduction you will start thinking about it, not to mention the beautiful 27 inch retina displays that are one of the tools to show you what your files are really look like. if you don't have such display, no wonder you don't see the problem. all the best!
> w


It has actually been demonstrated that more MP will help even older, lower spec lenses. 
Another great help has been the improvement in AF. On my R, my 70-200 f 2.8 L IS (2002) becomes a new lens compared to my old 5DmkII and even my mk4.
More MP and less noise with improved DR will be a giant benefit to all users of Canon lenses.


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## wojtek (Dec 4, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I suspect you haven't seen Keith's website? I don't know anybody who has done larger printing for close viewing and his articles on tilt shift lens use really should be compulsory reading for anybody that eve thinks a T/S lens might be in their bag.


Dear Sir, I did write my opinions only based on my subjective impressions from being a commercial photographer who switched to the sharpest digital canon ever made while being a super demanding perfectionist. I express only my point of view. Had a look at Keith's website after your post. Thank you


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## justaCanonuser (Dec 4, 2019)

Wow, wot a Pixel Monster. Many will need to add a new high-end notebook to the budget required. This "R" definitely will be a camera for huge prints - maybe also for cropping. But I still hope Canon will add a pro grade "R" with less MP and extended low-light capabilities for users like me.


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## Phil (Dec 4, 2019)

transpo1 said:


> I sure hope they put a Quick Control Dial with Touch Pad implementation on it. This was always one of my favorite features of the 5DII / III bodies and without it, it just doesn't feel like a Canon camera...Sony even ripped off their own version of the Quick Control Dial. Bring it back, Canon!


 
Quick Control Dial with Touch Pad sounds perfect to me


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## jaayres20 (Dec 4, 2019)

ColinJR said:


> You're like, the only one who cares about this... lol. Lots of reasons to add a joystick! Avoiding nose input, moving AF point with gloves on, shooting with the screen facing in...


Well that is just great.... large nosed photographers who wear gloves and shoot with the screen facing in are ruining my R shooting experience. Makes perfect sense.


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## Punio (Dec 4, 2019)

Sounds great and very Pro like features. I really hope they release two bodies with a smaller MP body. You never know...


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Dec 4, 2019)

This will probably set off a huge debate, but I've heard a lot of people talk about it, and I think there's some merit to it.

Does a high megapixel camera really perform any worse in low light compared to a low MP camera? One big caveat I want to say is this though, I'm talking about *at the same viewing size!*

For instance, while a 1DX MkII undoubtedly goes to a higher ISO than a 5D4, since at any given viewing size the 1DX MkII photo is zoomed in further towards its native resolution than the 5D4 photo, the IDX MkII photo will show comparatively about the same level of noise, since you aren't zoomed in as close on the 5D4 photo to view it at the same size.

I remember somebody posting similarly sized photos from what I think was a 5D4 and a 5DS, and it was apparent that, due to the added size and detail you get from the added resolution on the 5DS, it pretty much negates any advantage the 5D4 might theoretically have in low light.

Essentially, even though each pixel is smaller and doesn't collect light as well on a high MP camera, you end up with what amounts to about the same amount of noise as a lower MP camera, for all practical purposes.


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## privatebydesign (Dec 4, 2019)

wojtek said:


> Dear Sir, I did write my opinions only based on my subjective impressions from being a commercial photographer who switched to the sharpest digital canon ever made while being a super demanding perfectionist. I express only my point of view. Had a look at Keith's website after your post. Thank you


No problem, glad it was of use. Did you take the time to look at the high resolution printing comparisons and the extensive use and comparisons of resizing algorithms that Keith has written about over many years now? As far as large format 'fine art' printing I can't think of a better source of actual useful information than Keith's site. LL used to be similarly authoritative but even before Michael passed away it was becoming a shadow of its earlier self.


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## venusFivePhotoStudio (Dec 4, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Why would you prefer a tilt screen when a flippy one does the same thing, plus more?



No. Usually we take pictures from very high or very low level. The tilt screen would be very fast to tilt up or down. If you are not a Vlogger the articulated screen is useless. You have to do 2 moves instead of one to position it and also it's very fragile.


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## Ozarker (Dec 4, 2019)

venusFivePhotoStudio said:


> If you are not a Vlogger the articulated screen is useless.


Speak for yourself. I love my articulating screen. I am not a Vlogger.


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## 6degrees (Dec 4, 2019)

IBIS is a must.


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## wilsoncraft (Dec 4, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Sounds bloody good to me! If it can match the EOS R in FPS with 75mp and good dynamic range then that’s impressive.


I’d like to see them match the FPS of the Sony a7RIV


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## keithcooper (Dec 4, 2019)

wojtek said:


> well, I photograph architecture as a full time job and sometimes do products as well. there is a big difference in sharpness between 5Ds and 5Dsr and basically everything else is a consequence of this choice. for example you think that 24-70 2.8L is a sharp lens and I got rid of it when I had my 1Ds MkII for the quality reasons. I just don't think you should be using such good for portraits lens for product shots but happy days if you have the client who pays for the job... I use tilt and shift lenses, the same ones you mentioned, and to be honest it doesn't matter what year the lens was built as for example 90mm ts is one of the sharpest lenses canon made and on the other side of the scale is 45mm ts (mark one) which was a disaster, the worst chromatic aberration canon pro lens ever. talking about computers, well, once you get real busy with the postproduction you will start thinking about it, not to mention the beautiful 27 inch retina displays that are one of the tools to show you what your files are really look like. if you don't have such display, no wonder you don't see the problem. all the best!
> w


Suffice to say I'm minded to disagree with almost all of your points...

However I'll be sure alert my clients to start looking for someone who better understands modern photography ;-)


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## Gino_FOTO (Dec 4, 2019)

Camera at this supposet price point just should have an IBIS, otherwise, specs almost cover all that Northrup's dreams.


----------



## M. D. Vaden of Oregon (Dec 4, 2019)

Feel free to speculate and reply to this thought ......

But if the specs are real, and rumored body can have file size reduced to medium and small, would another later "pro" body replace the 1DX mk ii as a mirrorless? Because this rumored model sounds like something as pro as the 5D mk iv.


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## unfocused (Dec 4, 2019)

Normalnorm said:


> ...The rumor cites a larger EVF...



This is another thing that makes me skeptical. Can someone explain what they can possibly mean by a "larger" EVF. It's already as large as any DSLR.


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## jolyonralph (Dec 4, 2019)

For all those complaining about the size of the raw files, maybe you should upgrade your computer before your camera 

Not everyone needs 75mpx, but those of us who could make good use of it are pretty tired of the "what's the point of 75mpx they only need a good 24mpx sensor" arguments.


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## Quarkcharmed (Dec 4, 2019)

6degrees said:


> IBIS is a must.


nope it's a should-be, not a must-be, in my opinion.
They say IBIS increases sensor heat and therefore noise and therefore decreases the DR.

If there's a tradeoff between IBIS and DR, I'd prefer to have a better DR. 
IBIS would be great to have but only if it doesn't affect the DR.


----------



## Quackator (Dec 4, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Mount an L bracket the other way?



No way with dedicated shape L-brackets.


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## Quackator (Dec 4, 2019)

slclick said:


> This is the case on certain L brackets but when you buy a well designed model such as from RRS it will work.



The RRS is ten times the price of what I paid for my Mengs 
L-bracket, and it is more fragile, because the vertical loop is open.

Sooooo.... not convinced.


----------



## dtaylor (Dec 5, 2019)

wojtek said:


> a tsunami alert for all of those who think that buying a high megapixel camera is so cool idea. I've been using 5dsr (50 megapixel) for the past three years and I need to warn you that there will be some consequences. A financial consequences I mean if you are serious about the quality. First you will replace half of your lenses as you will notice a lot of underperforming ones in terms of sharpness and chromatic aberration.



A higher MP sensor will improve the output of any lens. Bob Atkins demonstrated this in his 5Ds review by testing a 90s kit lens on the 5Ds and on a 6D. That said, when you have a high resolution sensor you want to get the best you can out of it. So it certainly can alter your purchasing decisions.



> Then you will buy the most expensive computers (imac and macbook pro if you are a mac lover) as your old ones will be too slow, wasting in average two hours of your time per day if you shooting raw.



This is hyperbole. I notice the difference in processing times between 5Ds RAW files and RAW files from lower resolution cameras, but it's nothing that could add up to 'hours per day.' Any i5 or i7 made in the past 5 years should do just fine so long as you have enough RAM and a SSD for the OS/app/scratch disk.



> And for those of you who think shooting medium raw is such an excellent idea I would like to say that I tough that too until I saw a very annoying color difference in blacks (greenish blacks) that appear only in smaller than full size raws. Here you go.



I haven't personally seen this but I also don't shoot mRAW very often.



> Not to mention the storage. Prepare some more cash and you are good to go. The good side is the quality. Once you can afford all those you will never go back. w



Now those two points (storage and not wanting to go back) we agree on.


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## dtaylor (Dec 5, 2019)

wojtek said:


> well, I photograph architecture as a full time job and sometimes do products as well. there is a big difference in sharpness between 5Ds and 5Dsr



At the risk of digging up a dead horse argument between Alan and myself if he's following this thread...I don't think a "big" difference exists. Pic related. If I recall correctly the three panels are 5Ds, 5DsR, and 5Ds with very light sharpening.


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## dtaylor (Dec 5, 2019)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Does a high megapixel camera really perform any worse in low light compared to a low MP camera? One big caveat I want to say is this though, I'm talking about *at the same viewing size!*



Not really. High ISO images are dominated by photon shot noise. So there is little difference between sensors within a format when inspected at the same view size. Noise can seem a little more obtrusive on high MP sensors when you look at a gray patch. But when you look at an area of detail the extra resolution and sharpness makes the high MP image look much better IMHO. And you have more room to apply NR in post processing because the image is inherently sharper.


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## t.linn (Dec 5, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Why would you prefer a tilt screen when a flippy one does the same thing, plus more?



If it is a two-way tilt (like Fuji), it allows users to be more discrete as it is far less obvious when deployed. It is also more compact when deployed and doesn't interfere with an L-bracket.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (Dec 5, 2019)

you’re completely right
The issue is that the 5D and 7d folks just haven’t gotten their R model yet 
The demand is definitely there. Some have gone with the R and it has improved a lot with firmware but as you can imagine folks are just hungry for some new models



privatebydesign said:


> Then the whole point of the camera is not for you. Every model can't fit every use or user case, there hasn't been a 'best' camera for a long time.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Dec 5, 2019)

t.linn said:


> If it is a two-way tilt (like Fuji), it allows users to be more discrete as it is far less obvious when deployed. It is also more compact when deployed and doesn't interfere with an L-bracket.



As far as I understand, in Fuji it only tilts up and down, not left and right, which renders it useless when shooting in portrait orientation.


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## Don Haines (Dec 5, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> If that is close I will be getting one. 75mp, DR, weather sealed.
> 
> I'd prefer a tilt screen than a flip screen but am comfortable within my own mind to know Canon don't care what I, as an individual, want...


My preference is an articulated screen.

that said, I think that the greatest use of an articulated screen is to reverse it to protect the screen during transit. I rarely use it in any other position other than flat in the body, but every now and then it comes in handy.

being articulated, tilt, or fixed would have very little impact on my decision to buy


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## venusFivePhotoStudio (Dec 5, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Speak for yourself. I love my articulating screen. I am not a Vlogger.


I meant having an articulated screen vs a tilting screen is useless unless you are a vlogger. 
The tilting screen is more than perfect for photographers that don't do vlogs.

I would like to have a tilting screen. I hate articulated screens, very slow to handle and not so resistant.


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## unfocused (Dec 5, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> ...Fully weather-sealed ...



I take no credit for this, as another member found and posted this previously on another thread, but I do wonder how much more weather sealing one should expect.



> I want to underscore that the EOS R actually did very well in our weather-sealing tests. It passed the standard 35-minute heavy rain test with absolutely no problems, and in fact was more controllable than virtually any other camera we've weather-tested, because its touch-screen remained fully functional, and the eye sensor on the electronic viewfinder was largely unaffected by the precipitation.
> 
> It took 50 minutes of additional drenching the following day before it showed any problems at all, but when it finally did give up the fight, it was pretty obvious, as most of the rear- and top-panel control buttons just stopped working altogether. But note that this was after 85 minutes of being fully exposed to heavy rain with no protection whatsoever, an impressive performance compared to many other cameras we've tested so far.



While I have a great deal of respect for Lens Rentals and their teardowns, I wonder if we should be judging the EOS R by traditional weather sealing standards. Perhaps foam seals are not the be-all and end-all for weather sealing and Canon is instead using 21st century manufacturing processes to build the R to very tight tolerances that might actually seal the camera better than foam. 

I'm no engineer and I have no inside knowledge, but the Imagining Resources test is very impressive.


----------



## privatebydesign (Dec 5, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> As far as I understand, in Fuji it only tilts up and down, not left and right, which renders it useless when shooting in portrait orientation.


Certainly the GFX100 tilts to the right (as well as up and down) so is useful for low level portrait orientation angles.


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## amorse (Dec 5, 2019)

Oh no. Please no. This is shaping up to be exactly what I want but I really don't want to spend what it's going to cost. I'm going to need some self control on this one.


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## navastronia (Dec 5, 2019)

amorse said:


> Oh no. Please no. This is shaping up to be exactly what I want but I really don't want to spend what it's going to cost. I'm going to need some self control on this one.



It's a CR1 and there's no rumored price. What do you think it would cost if it had these specs?


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## amorse (Dec 5, 2019)

navastronia said:


> It's a CR1 and there's no rumored price. What do you think it would cost if it had these specs?


I'd expect around launch price of the 5DSR adjusted for inflation, so maybe $4000 - $4200 US? Could be a bit less considering the launch price of the a7riv I guess, but I'd be surprised if it was below $3800. Recognizing it's a CR1, we've been hearing rumors of a high resolution body release in that timeframe for a while now. Whether these specs are right or wrong, camera buyers have shown that they will pay a premium for high resolution bodies, and Canon has in the past not shown great willingness to drop the price of the 5Dsr series even years after release. I don't think Canon is ignorant to customer price tolerance and expect they'll price whatever they release to that upper price limit, regardless of the fine spec differences. I'm pretty confident in saying that wherever this camera lands in price, I'm going to feel dirty paying that amount, and I may not have the self control to not buy it. Time will tell!


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## slclick (Dec 5, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Speak for yourself. I love my articulating screen. I am not a Vlogger.


Obviously this person is not a macro shooter either. Photo 101, worms eye view photography...or is everyone solely a portrait shooter? There are endless styles and genres of photography and it make me cringe when people say things aren't useful.


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## slclick (Dec 5, 2019)

6degrees said:


> IBIS is a must.


To each their own, as I could take it or leave it and have other higher priority features on my theoretical move from Canon dslr to the R system.


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## Don Haines (Dec 5, 2019)

slclick said:


> Obviously this person is not a macro shooter either. Photo 101, worms eye view photography...or is everyone solely a portrait shooter? There are endless styles and genres of photography and it make me cringe when people say things aren't useful.



I occasionally have to shoot in very confined spaces where the camera is up against a wall or an equipment rack. you can’t beat an articulated screen for that. I regard it as a tool, use it when needed.


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## stochasticmotions (Dec 5, 2019)

Good timing on this rumor, at the very least this may delay me buying the A7RIV. I would love to replace my 5DS but only if the new camera is reasonably close to the 10 fps and the sony's autofocus tracking (I'm not expecting it to match or beat it, just be reasonably close). This will give me a few more years to use my 500 F/4 II on a (nearly) native platform. The 600 Sony is just too expensive to switch to at this time.

It may take some time to get used to the EOS R style ergonomics, right now I actually prefer the latest Sony cameras. Feels as natural now to me as my 5DS. The new canon will likely be better if it has a useful joystick. As with any camera, I'll get used to it with time and plenty of shooting.


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## analoggrotto (Dec 5, 2019)

Canon please go easy on the AA filter this time.


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## 6degrees (Dec 5, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> nope it's a should-be, not a must-be, in my opinion.
> They say IBIS increases sensor heat and therefore noise and therefore decreases the DR.
> 
> If there's a tradeoff between IBIS and DR, I'd prefer to have a better DR.
> IBIS would be great to have but only if it doesn't affect the DR.



You can choose to disable IBIS if you need.

Nobody will seriously buy Canon R and RF lenses if no IBIS.


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## Quarkcharmed (Dec 5, 2019)

6degrees said:


> You can choose to disable IBIS if you need.
> 
> Nobody will seriously buy Canon R and RF lenses if no IBIS.


As far as i understand, the very IBIS design implies issues with heat dissipation, even if it's disabled.

Again I'm all after IBIS. But I'd prefer to have a better DR rather than IBIS. Also the camera in question is the studio/landscape/architecture camera. This implies a lot of tripod use. I won't be surprised if Canon doesn't put IBIS in it.


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## Ozarker (Dec 5, 2019)

6degrees said:


> Nobody will seriously buy Canon R and RF lenses if no IBIS.


What exactly, does that mean? Seriously?


----------



## JWest (Dec 5, 2019)

I am SO EXCITED about this!

Anyone complaining about this EOS Rs must be either non-pro or just like to troll. If all it does more than my 5dsr is more MP and more dynamic range, then it's 100% worth it for me. I couldn't care less about IBIS for a camera that will do all it's commercial work from a tripod. 

This 75Mp combined with a backup/alt body 1Dx3 with more Mp and Clog would be a dream come true. For years I dreamed of a wider TSE lens and they delivered with the 17 which paid for itself 100x. I then wished for a Canon version of the Sigma 12-24 and they delivered to me the 11-24.

Complainers should busy themselves with making images or some other art instead of wasting mental energy on spec bashing.


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## kforrestry (Dec 5, 2019)

unless the DR can compete with sonys from 5 years ago, i dont see myself coming back to canon. as a landscape photographer, i've been waiting for two years now for them to show me the money and produce something worth coming back for. their lens line is clearly superior, but they've shown year after year now that they can't keep up with sony in the DR department. i couldn't care less about FPS, IBIS, ergonomics, and video, just give me great image quality that can compete with sony.


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## Pape (Dec 5, 2019)

Pfft always that DR talk . Just make 150mpixel 11 DR camera. When situation demands better dr peoples can use 5div.
Different camera for different uses.
Most of peoples here seems want camera like A7R 4,but it isnt high resolution camera .
Straight competitor for A7r4 is 5d serie or R


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## Joules (Dec 5, 2019)

kforrestry said:


> their lens line is clearly superior, but they've shown year after year now that they can't keep up with sony in the DR department.


The differences between Canon sensors from the previous generation and Sony's are already tiny and the newer sensors in the M6 II and 90D have gone even further, reducing read noise and eliminating the banding.

I think you can assume that upcoming Canon bodies priced higher than the R will offer quite remarkable IQ.


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## Joules (Dec 5, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> As far as i understand, the very IBIS design implies issues with heat dissipation, even if it's disabled.


If additional stabilization allows you to use a longer shutter speed and therefore lower ISO, it's already helping with dynamic range. So I wouldn't say it is a true trade off.

But I would like to read the source that gave you the impression that there is a constant issue with heat and IBIS. Is it something you could link?


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## Quarkcharmed (Dec 5, 2019)

Joules said:


> If additional stabilization allows you to use a longer shutter speed and therefore lower ISO, it's already helping with dynamic range. So I wouldn't say it is a true trade off.



Personally I'm looking for a landscape camera. This prospective Rs 75mp is a landscape camera, plus studio, architecture, product etc. All these genres are all shot from a tripod, mostly. And mostly at the base ISO. Basically 100% of my landscapes are shot at ISO 100 or 50, except for the night/astro. 



Joules said:


> But I would like to read the source that gave you the impression that there is a constant issue with heat and IBIS. Is it something you could link?



I recall it actually comes from Canon, they mentioned it in some interview when asked about IBIS. The heat is the problem with IBIS. If they solve it and put IBIS into this Rs camera without sacrificing on DR - perfect. Again and again I'm not saying "I don't need IBIS so don't put it there". That'd be ridiculous. I'm saying I wouldn't like Canon to sacrifice on DR *if* it's affected by IBIS.


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## Mr Majestyk (Dec 5, 2019)

2fps with tracking or can they at least get it to 5fps. If Sony can do 10fps at 61MP, surely you'd be targeting 6-7fps with 75MP. Three generations of digic later than 5Ds, should easily cope with 75MP.


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## Aussie shooter (Dec 5, 2019)

kforrestry said:


> unless the DR can compete with sonys from 5 years ago, i dont see myself coming back to canon. as a landscape photographer, i've been waiting for two years now for them to show me the money and produce something worth coming back for. their lens line is clearly superior, but they've shown year after year now that they can't keep up with sony in the DR department. i couldn't care less about FPS, IBIS, ergonomics, and video, just give me great image quality that can compete with sony.


Spoken like somebody who believes a half stop or less of DR difference will take your images from crap to fab....... Trust me it wont. If your images are crap on a canon they will be crap on a sony. So you may have wasted your money if that was the reason you changed


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## caffetin (Dec 5, 2019)

kforrestry said:


> unless the DR can compete with sonys from 5 years ago, i dont see myself coming back to canon. as a landscape photographer, i've been waiting for two years now for them to show me the money and produce something worth coming back for. their lens line is clearly superior, but they've shown year after year now that they can't keep up with sony in the DR department. i couldn't care less about FPS, IBIS, ergonomics, and video, just give me great image quality that can compete with sony.


Bla Bla, Dr in 400%crop.see the same picture on a4, no difference,or better to say Sony's colors suks.


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## Joules (Dec 5, 2019)

Mr Majestyk said:


> 2fps with tracking or can they at least get it to 5fps. If Sony can do 10fps at 61MP, surely you'd be targeting 6-7fps with 75MP. Three generations of digic later than 5Ds, should easily cope with 75MP.


The M6 II does 32.5 MP 14 FPS with tracking. Assuming the total throughput would remain the same, this puts a 75 MP Canon at 6 FPS. If they can go beyond the performance of their ~ 1k M camera with what will likely cost north of 3k, we can expect very competitive performance I think.


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## koenkooi (Dec 5, 2019)

venusFivePhotoStudio said:


> No. Usually we take pictures from very high or very low level. The tilt screen would be very fast to tilt up or down. If you are not a Vlogger the articulated screen is useless. You have to do 2 moves instead of one to position it and also it's very fragile.



Macro shooter here, the flippy screen is awesome!


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## wojtek (Dec 5, 2019)

the big question is what's your goal. if you are familiar with the superb quality of hasselblad system and you want to achieve the nearest possible from canon to satisfy your own high demands as well as your clients, then we can say we are on the same boat, but if you think the higher megapixel camera is an exercise to find some poor quality lenses a bit better than on 20 megapixel camera then let's produce thousands of silly articles about it, hey!


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## koenkooi (Dec 5, 2019)

Joules said:


> The M6 II does 32.5 MP 14 FPS with tracking. Assuming the total throughput would remain the same, this puts a 75 MP Canon at 6 FPS. If they can go beyond the performance of their ~ 1k M camera with what will likely cost north of 3k, we can expect very competitive performance I think.



If you take the raw burst numbers (30fps, 18MP), you get to 7FPS.


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## wojtek (Dec 5, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> At the risk of digging up a dead horse argument between Alan and myself if he's following this thread...I don't think a "big" difference exists. Pic related. If I recall correctly the three panels are 5Ds, 5DsR, and 5Ds with very light sharpening.
> 
> View attachment 187706


that's the wrong way around it. the 5dsr is actually a camera without the blurring filter (high pass or whatever it's called) that 5ds has. it was a terrible idea from canon and they will not repeat this mistake again.
the example picture can prove anything as it was done with a soft lens. try to put on your 5dsr for example sigma 50mm 1.4 art. step it down to F4 or 5.6 and photograph some sharp texture on iso 50. then try to do the same with 5ds and and any kind of sharpening. I guarantee you won't achieve the same result. 

my good friend, a studio photographer, specialising in whisky bottles campaigns, bought back then 5ds. I told him to give it back to the shop and take 5dsr as this is the very essence of the high megapixel quality, he said he's very happy with 5ds so I proposed to do a studio tests and brought my camera for comparison. he had his 5dsr the next day.


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## kforrestry (Dec 5, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> Spoken like somebody who believes a half stop or less of DR difference will take your images from crap to fab....... Trust me it wont. If your images are crap on a canon they will be crap on a sony. So you may have wasted your money if that was the reason you changed



went from a 5D2 to a a7r2, and the image quality is pretty significant at an 1800$ price range. now it's just waiting to see if they replace the 5Dsr with something that can compete with the a7r series. i can hope they will and i can start investing in their new lens line. until then i'm happy with my sony and shooting with canon glass.


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## Aussie shooter (Dec 5, 2019)

kforrestry said:


> went from a 5D2 to a a7r2, and the image quality is pretty significant at an 1800$ price range. now it's just waiting to see if they replace the 5Dsr with something that can compete with the a7r series. i can hope they will and i can start investing in their new lens line. until then i'm happy with my sony and shooting with canon glass.


Obviously you haven't seen the quality of the 5d4 sensor . DR difference is insignificant. 90d and m62 have the best apsc sensor on the market. Canon are clearly caught up in the sensor game. And ahead in just about all other areas except for IBIS and eye af. Still way ahead on lenses and ergonomics. The only area where canon still lag way behind is in the youtoob 'influencer' telling popularity seeking enthusiasts how good the new tech, is in order to get sales from affiliate links. Although, having said all that I have to give credit to sony and the a7r4. It seems they have finally(after 10 years) learned that some photographers actually have human hands and want to hold on to their camera without the need for an on call doctor to fix the arthritis the camera gives them


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## AlanF (Dec 5, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> At the risk of digging up a dead horse argument between Alan and myself if he's following this thread...I don't think a "big" difference exists. Pic related. If I recall correctly the three panels are 5Ds, 5DsR, and 5Ds with very light sharpening.
> 
> View attachment 187706


Choose your weapons and we'll meet at noon.


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## dtaylor (Dec 5, 2019)

wojtek said:


> the example picture can prove anything as it was done with a soft lens. try to put on your 5dsr for example sigma 50mm 1.4 art. step it down to F4 or 5.6 and photograph some sharp texture...


It was done with a 50mm f/2.5 macro at f/8. You're kidding yourself if you think that lens at f/8 isn't sharp enough to illustrate any differences between AA and canceled AA sensors.



> I guarantee you won't achieve the same result.


Exactly the same? No. Possible to tell apart at anything less than pixel peeping? I don't believe someone with 20/10 vision could pass that double blind test. I would complain that the 5DsR can show rough aliasing along edges when pixel peeping but in all honesty that's no more perceivable in print than any sharpness differences. There's very little to choose between them IMHO except that one is slightly less prone to full blown moire.



> so I proposed to do a studio tests and brought my camera for comparison. he had his 5dsr the next day.


Good! Then you have RAW files to post so we can all see the difference and judge for ourselves if it's "big" or not. I hope I don't have to wait as long as I do for the DR examples I request from Sony fans


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## dtaylor (Dec 5, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Choose your weapons and we'll meet at noon.


If only we were YouTube influencers. I can see the opening scene now. A street in a dusty western ghost town. You at one end with a 5DsR, me at the other with a 5Ds, both with 100-400 mark II's. And the Northrups at either side, shooting drone footage and waiting to judge the results.

Forget it. I don't trust you to not whip out the 90D and win on pixel density


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## AlanF (Dec 5, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> If only we were YouTube influencers. I can see the opening scene now. A street in a dusty western ghost town. You at one end with a 5DsR, me at the other with a 5Ds, both with 100-400 mark II's. And the Northrups at either side, shooting drone footage and waiting to judge the results.
> 
> Forget it. I don't trust you to not whip out the 90D and win on pixel density


You trust me too much - it would be at 100 yards with you a Colt 45 and me a Winchester.


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## Joules (Dec 5, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> If you take the raw burst numbers (30fps, 18MP), you get to 7FPS.


The RAW burst is not using the full 14 bit color depth, but is reduced to 12. So it isn't all that useful as a direct comparison, since you are giving something up to get those high speeds.


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## CvH (Dec 5, 2019)

slclick said:


> This is the case on certain L brackets but when you buy a well designed model such as from RRS it will work.


I have the RRS L bracket on my R and it still limit the full tilt of the screen.


----------



## Punio (Dec 5, 2019)

venusFivePhotoStudio said:


> I would like to have a tilting screen. I hate articulated screens, very slow to handle and not so resistant.



When I'm shooting portrait view at low or high angles the articulated screen is amazing. A tilting screen would be useless. 

There is a solution where you can have both; you could put the articulating part on top of the 'tilting flap', but this would be overkill. The articulating screen is the best solution to meet the demands of the many.


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## PhotoSiem (Dec 5, 2019)

Regarding the IBIS story. I really like the Canon approach now. I have the RF 24 70 IS, stabilization is already amazing. Can't imagine how good it would be when they combine it in an IBIS system that is tested and proofed as Canon tend to do with their products.Of course it would be nice to stabilize a RF 50 1.2 already, but just have to be patience for a while. (written from a videomaker approach)


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## privatebydesign (Dec 5, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> Good! Then you have RAW files to post so we can all see the difference and judge for ourselves if it's "big" or not. I hope I don't have to wait as long as I do for the DR examples I request from Sony fans


Why should anybody else do that if you don't?

I don't take anybody seriously who doesn't post before and after images to illustrate their points when they make assertions about the differences they get with specific cameras, lenses, software etc.


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## amorse (Dec 5, 2019)

6degrees said:


> You can choose to disable IBIS if you need.
> 
> Nobody will seriously buy Canon R and RF lenses if no IBIS.


I would buy it with or without ibis


Mr Majestyk said:


> 2fps with tracking or can they at least get it to 5fps. If Sony can do 10fps at 61MP, surely you'd be targeting 6-7fps with 75MP. Three generations of digic later than 5Ds, should easily cope with 75MP.


Doesn't the a7Riv drop the bit rate in that burst mode? I'm pretty sure there are some considerable sacrifices to get up to 10fps. I guess it's still useful to get up to that speed when you really need it, but for most applications I'd probably stick with the lower speed and higher bit rate. To each their own though!


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## wojtek (Dec 5, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> It was done with a 50mm f/2.5 macro at f/8. You're kidding yourself if you think that lens at f/8 isn't sharp enough to illustrate any differences between AA and canceled AA sensors.
> 
> 
> Exactly the same? No. Possible to tell apart at anything less than pixel peeping? I don't believe someone with 20/10 vision could pass that double blind test. I would complain that the 5DsR can show rough aliasing along edges when pixel peeping but in all honesty that's no more perceivable in print than any sharpness differences. There's very little to choose between them IMHO except that one is slightly less prone to full blown moire.
> ...



well... my advice was from one professional to others, take it or leave it. good luck with whatever you do


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## tron (Dec 5, 2019)

Good now I would like a slight change in its configuration. Canon please put an EF mount


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## AlanF (Dec 5, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> It was done with a 50mm f/2.5 macro at f/8. You're kidding yourself if you think that lens at f/8 isn't sharp enough to illustrate any differences between AA and canceled AA sensors......


f/8 is above the diffraction limit of f/6.7 for the 5DS and 5DSR and both are being limited by diffraction. You lose a lot of resolution between say f/4 and f/8 - see for example measurements on good lenses like https://www.opticallimits.com/canon_eos_ff/964-canon35f14mk2?start=1 and https://www.opticallimits.com/canon_eos_ff/1000-sigma85f14art?start=1
You need to go down to f/4 or wider lenses to get the benefit of the R or see the difference. At f/8, there is indeed little benefit having the 5DSR over the 5DS. I am keeping my 400mm DO II f/4 for use with high resolution sensors.


----------



## slclick (Dec 5, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> What exactly, does that mean? Seriously?


No kidding...is this like my wacky thought that no one would buy Corvettes in bright yellow? How did that work out?


----------



## keithcooper (Dec 5, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Why should anybody else do that if you don't?
> 
> I don't take anybody seriously who doesn't post before and after images to illustrate their points when they make assertions about the differences they get with specific cameras, lenses, software etc.


Likewise - a friend turned up with a 5Ds R and TS-E50 wondering if there was really much difference for the sorts of work we did (architecture/commercial)

We went outside, took some identical shots and realised that Canon had done a splendid marketing job on quite a few 5Ds R purchasers and I'd saved ~£300

Sure, there were some small differences visible in some areas if you looked carefully, but probably more visible to those who thought there should be differences and went looking for them ;-) So yes, I did a bit of a write-up of it, and moved on with happily using the camera. 

What was personally much more interesting was when I did a print based comparison test between my 1Ds/1Ds3/5Ds with each image produced at a range of sizes. This was before tools such as AI Gigapixel came out that I might choose for lower MP images. If anything, such software would make differences even less obvious. The reactions of 'real people' looking at the prints reminded me that much of the technical minutiae that agitate some photographers are utterly irrelevant to the people I create photos for.

This AA storm in a teacup reminds me of a warning I give when doing talks about colour management - that is to tread carefully if you are someone who paints behind their radiators. Radiators? I'm of the school that isn't bothered if you can't see it - If you'e of the school that finds that disconcerting, then be mindful of paying large amounts of attention to stuff that no-one else will see and still less be concerned with...


----------



## sanj (Dec 5, 2019)

keithcooper said:


> Likewise - a friend turned up with a 5Ds R and TS-E50 wondering if there was really much difference for the sorts of work we did (architecture/commercial)
> 
> We went outside, took some identical shots and realised that Canon had done a splendid marketing job on quite a few 5Ds R purchasers and I'd saved ~£300
> 
> ...



Agree. However, there are many photos that I create for myself as well. Am everything is very obvious and important to me.


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## dtaylor (Dec 5, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Why should anybody else do that if you don't?


I did post a comparison image. The RAWs are available at Imaging Resource.


----------



## dtaylor (Dec 5, 2019)

AlanF said:


> You lose a lot of resolution between say f/4 and f/8



No you don't. Try comparing f/4 and f/8 on a few good primes at TDP. On some lenses, with your nose to the screen, there's the slightest difference in sharpness. If such a small difference can wipe out the claimed 5DsR advantage, then that advantage is not "big" or "a lot" by any rational definition of those words.



AlanF said:


> You need to go down to f/4 or wider lenses to get the benefit of the R or see the difference. At f/8, there is indeed little benefit having the 5DSR over the 5DS. I am keeping my 400mm DO II f/4 for use with high resolution sensors.



Bad example. Judging from this you will see no difference at f/4:








Canon EF 400mm f/4 DO IS II USM Lens Image Quality


View the image quality delivered by the Canon EF 400mm f/4 DO IS II USM Lens using ISO 12233 Resolution Chart lab test results. Compare the image quality of this lens with other lenses.




www.the-digital-picture.com


----------



## privatebydesign (Dec 5, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> I did post a comparison image. The RAWs are available at Imaging Resource.


Where?





Some deer - M6 Mk II


Neither would. I will, just not right now, for the reason I explained.




www.canonrumors.com


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## AlanF (Dec 5, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> No you don't. Try comparing f/4 and f/8 on a few good primes at TDP. On some lenses, with your nose to the screen, there's the slightest difference in sharpness. If such a small difference can wipe out the claimed 5DsR advantage, then that advantage is not "big" or "a lot" by any rational definition of those words.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The laws of physics and diffraction are quite clear that you lose resolution as you go from wider to narrower aperture . Your eye balling shots from TDP doesn't get around those laws, and the author of TDP disagrees with your conclusions about his images and concludes that the 5DSR picks up detail lost by the 5DS. This is what he writes about the 5DSR vs the 5DS on his site that you quote https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-5Ds-R.aspx:

*"The Difference in Sharpness*
_How big is the difference in sharpness? Sharpness is the 5Ds R's biggest advantage, so this a key question to ask. The difference is noticeable, but seeing the difference with your own eyes is the easiest way to answer that question.

My first suggestion is to review the resolution chart test results comparison between these two cameras. The difference seen here is only slight.

I'm finding the real world differences to vary modestly, *but the difference in fine details is generally very noticeable*.."

In the bottom right example links, we see that increasing the 5Ds results to a setting of "2" produces sharpness similar to the 5Ds R at "1" and the 5Ds R images at "0" resemble the 5Ds image at "1". But, the 5Ds cannot make detail from what doesn't exist in the RAW data. For example, look at the vinyl siding on the press box in the 5Ds S=2 result and compare it to the base 5Ds R result. The lines in the siding remain clear even in the 5Ds R S=0 image, but the 5Ds does not clearly delineate these lines even at S=2. That data does not exist in the 5Ds RAW file._

*The clear takeaway is that the 5Ds R delivers a noticeably sharper image and captures more detail"*

Opticallimits does a careful analysis under controlled and reproducible conditions and charts the numbers and clearly shows the change in MTF values, which are consistent with theory.


----------



## cayenne (Dec 5, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I suspect you haven't seen Keith's website? I don't know anybody who has done larger printing for close viewing and his articles on tilt shift lens use really should be compulsory reading for anybody that eve thinks a T/S lens might be in their bag.



Keith's website?
Not familiar with that, but would like to look at it if you could post a link please?

I've been contemplating a T/S lens in the near future to play with....

TIA,

cayenne


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## AlanF (Dec 5, 2019)

cayenne said:


> Keith's website?
> Not familiar with that, but would like to look at it if you could post a link please?
> 
> I've been contemplating a T/S lens in the near future to play with....
> ...


It's http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/
He is a highly respected expert and makes occasional welcome contributions here.


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## cayenne (Dec 5, 2019)

AlanF said:


> It's http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/
> He is a highly respected expert and makes occasional welcome contributions here.



Thank you VERY much, I'll take a look!!

C


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## SteveC (Dec 5, 2019)

AlanF said:


> You trust me too much - it would be at 100 yards with you a Colt 45 and me a Winchester.



Wrong kind of shooting, folks!


----------



## keithcooper (Dec 5, 2019)

cayenne said:


> Thank you VERY much, I'll take a look!!
> 
> C


Hope you find it useful

The shortcut to all articles/reviews related to tilt/shift matters is:





Tilt / Shift Archives - Northlight Images


Tilt / Shift lens information, tutorials, articles and reviews linked to camera movements and perspective control




www.northlight-images.co.uk


----------



## Sporgon (Dec 5, 2019)

keithcooper said:


> We went outside, took some identical shots and realised that Canon had done a splendid marketing job on quite a few 5Ds R purchasers and I'd saved ~£300





Didn't work on me Keith either ! I did a comparison on the two cameras and came to the same conclusion.

If you compare the two RAW files with no sharpening applied to either, then yes the SR has a little more contrast and is sharper. Add a little judiciuos USM and the difference, to all intents and purposes, has gone.

Even at f/4 

In fact I must dig out my comparison files and have a little competition on CR to see if anyone can guess which is which.


----------



## Kit. (Dec 5, 2019)

Looks like for my typical aperture values the lens itself will work as an AA filter for a 75 Mpix FF sensor. So, if there are two versions of the camera, one with AA and one without, I should just get the cheaper one.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Dec 5, 2019)

Sporgon said:


> If you compare the two RAW files with no sharpening applied to either, then yes the SR has a little more contrast and is sharper. Add a little judiciuos USM and the difference, to all intents and purposes, has gone.


But it's a confirmation there IS a difference. Maybe small, but measured by the amount of sharpening you have to apply to the 5Ds images to make them even with the 5DSr images. 

You run 100m distance faster than me, but if I start one second earlier, for all intents and purposes we arrive at the same time. So we're basically running at the same speed, only that I always need a handicap, but who cares, right? We sweep it all under the carpet.


----------



## mpb001 (Dec 5, 2019)

I think if Canon does not include IBIS in this model that it will put Canon is a bad spot, since Nikon and Sony have implemented it in their models. It would likely set Canon back another year in terms of this technology, which is becoming a standard feature across camera brands.


----------



## djack41 (Dec 5, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> It really depends on what price range this comes in at. If it comes in under 4k I'm not sure if there will be a direct 5dIV replacement.
> 
> If it is EOS-R like speeds, it might mean 8-10 fps. However that doesn't have to mean it's 3 fps slower when tracking like the R (and RP are). The 90d/M6II are just as fast while tracking, and the previous versions slowed significantly when turning options on to maximize tracking. The previous 5dIV was released with an MSRP of 3499 and the 5ds/r was a few hundred more. Since the Sony AIVr is 3499, I'd expect the new camera to come in within a few hundred of that.
> 
> If it can hit 9 FPS but experience no significant sped loss while tracking it will match up extrememly well with Sony's new camera. And with small and medium RAW modes those with concern about file sizes can be happy.


Agreed. FR and buffer size is important for me. The EOS-R is too slow. The new CFexpress cards are reported to be twice as fast as CFAST. Also, Canon is adopting HEIF which supposedly has 4X the info of a JPEG and half the size of RAW. There is hope.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Dec 5, 2019)

I think a lot of you are forgetting that Alan is a wildlife photographer and therefore crops his images far more than say a landscape or arcitechture photographer would. So any differences are going to be far more noticeable in those circumstances whereas you could get away with it easier without the cropping


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## Sporgon (Dec 5, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> But it's a confirmation there IS a difference. Maybe small, but measured by the amount of sharpening you have to apply to the 5Ds images to make them even with the 5DSr images.
> 
> You run 100m distance faster than me, but if I start one second earlier, for all intents and purposes we arrive at the same time. So we're basically running at the same speed, only that I always need a handicap, but who cares, right? We sweep it all under the carpet.



The problem is that we often see what we want or expect to see. 

For instance I can definitely see the difference in my images shot on the 135L when compared with my similar images shot on other, ostensibly lesser quality lenses, just as long as I know which ones were shot on the 135L


----------



## Kit. (Dec 5, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> But it's a confirmation there IS a difference.


If there were no difference at all, it would mean that the AA filter was _useless_.



Quarkcharmed said:


> You run 100m distance faster than me, but if I start one second earlier, for all intents and purposes we arrive at the same time. So we're basically running at the same speed, only that I always need a handicap, but who cares, right? We sweep it all under the carpet.


As long as you are not trying to win the Olympics but are delivering pizza, finishing at the right door is more important than being able to start later.


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## -pekr- (Dec 5, 2019)

"75mp full-frame CMOS Sensor focused on the dynamic range” - an oxymoron? 30mp sensor would be even more focused on dynamic range


----------



## Kit. (Dec 5, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> "75mp full-frame CMOS Sensor focused on the dynamic range” - an oxymoron? 30mp sensor would be even more focused on dynamic range


75Mp 14-bit sensor can be more "focused on the dynamic range" than a 30Mp 14-bit one.


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## AlanF (Dec 5, 2019)

Sporgon said:


> Didn't work on me Keith either ! I did a comparison on the two cameras and came to the same conclusion.
> 
> If you compare the two RAW files with no sharpening applied to either, then yes the SR has a little more contrast and is sharper. Add a little judiciuos USM and the difference, to all intents and purposes, has gone.
> 
> ...


You are equating contrast and sharpening with resolution, but they are different. Edge sharpness can be improved by a variety of procedures, including USM, and, as Aussieshooter implies, that if edge sharpness is what is important to you, as in architecture and little cropping, then an AA-filter won't cause much problem. But, for resolution, details that are lost by blurring cannot be simply restored by sharpening. So, if you need pixel level resolution, which I often do, the AA-filter does lose detail and gets in the way.


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 5, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> nope it's a should-be, not a must-be, in my opinion.
> They say IBIS increases sensor heat and therefore noise and therefore decreases the DR.
> 
> If there's a tradeoff between IBIS and DR, I'd prefer to have a better DR.
> IBIS would be great to have but only if it doesn't affect the DR.



You can always turn off IBIS and make your sensor cooler, if you perceive it makes a difference. 

For my part, IBIS is magical when it comes to using specialty glass. My EF 90mm TS L is a treat with it (adapted onto the A7R4). People are rightly sensitive about not wanting to use tilt/shift lenses off a tripod due to the horizon being so important in its various adjustments, but with the heads-up display showing the leveling function and IBIS purring away, I can do crazy stuff like optimizing the focus plane (it does take 2-5 seconds) while taking pictures of my kids running around a field. If I had to set up a tripod for each of these cases, it would never be able to happen.

Similarly, some of the cool new macro lenses coming out of China from Laowa and others can be employed in the same sort of run-and-gun hiking macro trip that I used to like to do with my 100mm L macro, which has fantastic IS. I have a Laowa 15mm f/4 macro shift lens that I like taking on hikes to get super close macro pictures of flowers, etc., while also including the environmental context. Suddenly it's stabilized, allowing for hand holding - at least if I'm not going for maximum aperture depth of field. 

Right now the best set-up for me is a bunch of Sony bodies with Canon glass, but I'd love for most of the basic functionality (reasonable frames per second with autofocus being the primary one, and IBIS a couple items down) to finally come to Canon so I can consolidate. My expectation is that this'll be a while, which is why I swapped big whites for Sony superteles for now. Here is the telling thing... If this rumored camera has IBIS, it would be a good candidate to replace my A7R4. If it doesn't, it ain't.


----------



## 6degrees (Dec 5, 2019)

amorse said:


> I would buy it with or without ibis
> 
> Doesn't the a7Riv drop the bit rate in that burst mode? I'm pretty sure there are some considerable sacrifices to get up to 10fps. I guess it's still useful to get up to that speed when you really need it, but for most applications I'd probably stick with the lower speed and higher bit rate. To each their own though!



I will not start to buy any Canon R or RF lenses unless there is a Canon R body with IBIS and 40+ mp sensor.


----------



## CombatWombat (Dec 5, 2019)

I'm definitely interested in an EOS RS, if that's what Canon calls it. I wonder if this will be the camera that brings back a greatly improved version of the long-gone Eye Controlled Focus? I've seen some rumors that Canon may be working on an updated version of that system. The old systems in the A2E and Elan 2E film cameras weren't perfect by any means, but I've always hoped Canon would bring that feature back to market. Current Eye AF systems are getting better all the time, but combining that technology with the ability to track exactly where you're looking within the frame would be even better. This has been an interesting discussion on the pluses and minuses of fully articulated screens. I happen to love them! As a stills shooter with little interest in video, I use the screens on my M50 and 6D Mark II frequently, both in landscape and portrait mode, often for low close-up shots with wide lenses. The fact that the extended screen extends to the left side of the camera (from the user's perspective) doesn't bother me at all. I understand that the screen wouldn't extend fulliy when using an L bracket; I have the same problem when I attach my bracket for portraits. But the screen does come out far enough for me to use it for vertical shots even with the bracket in place.


----------



## slclick (Dec 5, 2019)

6degrees said:


> I will not start to buy any Canon R or RF lenses unless there is a Canon R body with IBIS and 40+ mp sensor.


I understand this point of view but let's pretend for a minute. If the competition didn't have it, would you demand Canon to have it ? In the past year I have seen 90% of the desire for Canon products to be keeping up with the Sony/Joneses...not asking for bodies and lenses for the sake of particular shooters needs.(meaning, they always mention Sony) I couldn't give a rats tuchus what systems which I am not invested in have features others are using. But that's just me I guess, everyone else is in the 'Play catch up Canon/Canon is *******' race. Perhaps it's the Ebay culture of easily parting with and selling your goods (which I find to be a major PITA) for others that fuels the GAS and self deluded needs. 

Could it be the understanding that digital imagery is in it's infancy and I'm still clinging to my film based curmudgeonly views where folks did just fine with much much less?

I don't need no stinking IBIS, the glass stabilization is more than fine, especially the new 4+ stops lenses.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Dec 5, 2019)

Kit. said:


> If there were no difference at all, it would mean that the AA filter was _useless_.



There was a statement that there's no difference between 5DS and 5DSr, just need to apply sharpening to 5DS. But sharpening only improves perceived sharpness and doesn't recover anything. I can apply the same amount of sharpening to 5DSr and make even sharper than 5DS again. Sharpening slider doesn't make the original in-camera sharpness better.

Moreover, any digital manipulation (almost any) means information loss. AA filter makes a physical information loss, and sharpening - a loss in postproduction.
Some may think it's not worth the price difference, others may think it is, as it's clearly shown in this thread.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Dec 5, 2019)

6degrees said:


> I will not start to buy any Canon R or RF lenses unless there is a Canon R body with IBIS and 40+ mp sensor.


Noted!


----------



## privatebydesign (Dec 5, 2019)

6degrees said:


> I will not start to buy any Canon R or RF lenses unless there is a Canon R body with IBIS and 40+ mp sensor.


Good for you, however Canon don't care for your thoughts as an individual so you might be waiting a very long time.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Dec 5, 2019)

[email protected] said:


> You can always turn off IBIS and make your sensor cooler, if you perceive it makes a difference.


I've already responded to this in the following message




__





Rumoured Canon EOS Rs Specifications [CR1]


Oh no. Please no. This is shaping up to be exactly what I want but I really don't want to spend what it's going to cost. I'm going to need some self control on this one. It's a CR1 and there's no rumored price. What do you think it would cost if it had these specs?




www.canonrumors.com


----------



## Go Wild (Dec 5, 2019)

Yes, yes, yes!!! Please Canon, make it come as fast as you can!!!   Now I am happy! I see Canon Stepping forward! Now i can sell my Sony mirrorless and back to Canon 100%! I did love this experience with Sony, but cant wait to be 100% Canon fully user again. I am not by any means "excited" about the huge MP....I would love a 40MP camera....But....Well, let it come! It will be a great partner to my 1dx MkII. Then...just have to wait for the EOS Rx. 

Back in old excitment Canon Days, so please Canon dont screw up on this one! PLEASE!


----------



## privatebydesign (Dec 5, 2019)

cayenne said:


> Keith's website?
> Not familiar with that, but would like to look at it if you could post a link please?
> 
> I've been contemplating a T/S lens in the near future to play with....
> ...


Hi cayenne,

Here is a link to a great article outlining shift use, he has others for tilt including the newest Canon TS-E Macro lenses.









How to use a shift lens on a camera and why you should use one


How to use a shift lens on a camera, the results you get and why you should use one. Perspective control and changing your viewpoint with a tilt/shift lens




www.northlight-images.co.uk





But Keith has an amazing number if very high quality articles on tilt, shift, printing, color management, unusual lenses, specialist software and plugins, the entire site is a goldmine.


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## djack41 (Dec 6, 2019)

Sony is now the sales leader in full frame cameras (mirrorless and DSLR combined). Canon has slipped to 2nd place. Time for Canon to really get it right!


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 6, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Sony is now the sales leader in full frame cameras (mirrorless and DSLR combined). Canon has slipped to 2nd place. Time for Canon to really get it right!


In Japan. By 2%. In a segment that comprises 10% of that ILC market. But good for Sony, and for us – competition benefits consumers.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Dec 6, 2019)

Joules said:


> The M6 II does 32.5 MP 14 FPS with tracking. Assuming the total throughput would remain the same, this puts a 75 MP Canon at 6 FPS. If they can go beyond the performance of their ~ 1k M camera with what will likely cost north of 3k, we can expect very competitive performance I think.


Indeed, but this is Canon, we need to be wary, what their cpable of offering and what they do offer is different. Also it might need dual digic 9.


----------



## Don Haines (Dec 6, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Wrong kind of shooting, folks!


I say water balloons at 300 metres.... and since neither can throw them that far, it is all for naught.....


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## slclick (Dec 6, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> I say water balloons at 300 metres.... and since neither can throw them that far, it is all for naught.....


Thank you. Topics such as firearms are not welcome here, it is a gateway drug to yammering on about religion and politics.


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## Quarkcharmed (Dec 6, 2019)

Go Wild said:


> Now i can sell my Sony mirrorless and back to Canon 100%!



Of course it's entirely up to you to sell your Sony and wait for Canon without a camera, but may I suggest to wait until the camera is actually released...


----------



## Aussie shooter (Dec 6, 2019)

CombatWombat said:


> I'm definitely interested in an EOS RS, if that's what Canon calls it. I wonder if this will be the camera that brings back a greatly improved version of the long-gone Eye Controlled Focus? I've seen some rumors that Canon may be working on an updated version of that system. The old systems in the A2E and Elan 2E film cameras weren't perfect by any means, but I've always hoped Canon would bring that feature back to market. Current Eye AF systems are getting better all the time, but combining that technology with the ability to track exactly where you're looking within the frame would be even better. This has been an interesting discussion on the pluses and minuses of fully articulated screens. I happen to love them! As a stills shooter with little interest in video, I use the screens on my M50 and 6D Mark II frequently, both in landscape and portrait mode, often for low close-up shots with wide lenses. The fact that the extended screen extends to the left side of the camera (from the user's perspective) doesn't bother me at all. I understand that the screen wouldn't extend fulliy when using an L bracket; I have the same problem when I attach my bracket for portraits. But the screen does come out far enough for me to use it for vertical shots even with the bracket in place.



I think a lot of us would like to see a return of eye controlled AF but i am not sure it will happen. Remember the eos5 film camera had 5af points. Could a aystem be designed that is accurate enough to work with 500 af points? That is the challenge


----------



## dsut4392 (Dec 6, 2019)

[email protected] said:


> You can always turn off IBIS and make your sensor cooler, if you perceive it makes a difference.



The issue with IBIS and cooling is three-fold, and only the smallest part of the problem (heat generated by the IBIS actuators) is resolved by simply turning IBIS off.

The two main issues that aren't resolved are related to thermal mass, and thermal path.

Firstly, to optimise IBIS you need to minimise the mass of your sensor assembly, otherwise the IBIS actuators have to be much larger/more powerful to move the sensor as effectively. If you minimise the mass of the sensor, you're also minimising the thermal mass (i.e. the size of the heatsink), so your sensor will (for the same energy consumption) get hotter faster.

Secondly, because IBIS by definition means the sensor has to be able to move in relation to the lens mount, it also means the thermal path between the sensor and the outside of the body is seriously compromised (in the absence of ducted or peltier cooling). With a traditional fixed sensor, you can have a solid high density thermal path allowing heat from the sensor to be conducted to the body, from where it can be shed by radiant heat loss. With IBIS, you have at best a thin flexible connector with much lower thermal conductivity between the sensor and body shell, so it's much harder to move the heat out.

It may not be an issue with your style of shooting, but thermal management is a serious design constraint.


----------



## Ozarker (Dec 6, 2019)

dsut4392 said:


> The issue with IBIS and cooling is three-fold, and only the smallest part of the problem (heat generated by the IBIS actuators) is resolved by simply turning IBIS off.
> 
> The two main issues that aren't resolved are related to thermal mass, and thermal path.
> 
> ...


Hmmmmm. I wonder if this is the reason for the heat transfer tape (heat sink) behind the bayonet mount on the RF lenses? It is not in EF lenses. See the teardown of the RF 50mm f/1.2L at lensrentals.


----------



## -pekr- (Dec 6, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Good for you, however Canon don't care for your thoughts as an individual so you might be waiting a very long time.



MeToo, so it makes a vocal bunch already, not an individual


----------



## dtaylor (Dec 6, 2019)

AlanF said:


> The laws of physics and diffraction are quite clear that you lose resolution as you go from wider to narrower aperture .



In a diffraction limited lens, yes. In an aberration limited lens you certainly can gain both resolution and sharpness by stopping down. I'm not sure if there are any diffraction limited lenses in 35mm format. Every one I can think of has an optimal aperture stopped down from wide open, even if just 1 stop. I know there are a few in MF.



> Your eye balling shots from TDP doesn't get around those laws,



And your attempt to appeal to "laws of physics" to theoretically prove that X is better than Y is a straw man. I never said the 5Ds was sharper, nor did I say that it was exactly the same pixel-by-pixel. As I've said from the beginning: it can be difficult to find the sharpness differences while pixel peeping; would likely be impossible in print straight from camera; and would certainly be impossible after post processing.

To prove/disprove my claims scientifically...as opposed to the claim you want to debate...would require a double blind test with, say, 36" prints. In our last debate when I was arranging side-by-side crops from online test samples I had to redo a couple because I was moving fast, looked away for a second, and all of a sudden wasn't 100% confident I had moved the right crop to the right position in PS. This is viewing at 1:1 and 2:1 on a 4k monitor. I'm quite confident that it would not be possible to pick 5Ds from 5DsR prints at 36" or even 48" in a double blind test, all other factors being equal.

I believe I said in our last debate that my advice to people is: if you're OCD about sharpness get the 5DsR. If you're OCD about moire get the 5Ds. If you're not OCD choose based on your favorite badge color.



> and the author of TDP disagrees with your conclusions about his images and concludes that the 5DSR picks up detail lost by the 5DS..._I'm finding the real world differences to vary modestly, *but the difference in fine details is generally very noticeable*.."_



I shouldn't have to point out the possibilities of operator error under field conditions, selection bias, or confirmation bias. If carefully performed lab tests show X but someone claims in the field that they get Y, it's most likely that they're not really getting Y. It's not impossible, but then if the difference is "big" or even "significant" and Y is regularly achieved outside of a lab...where is the avalanche of examples? And what is wrong with the lab?


----------



## dtaylor (Dec 6, 2019)

AlanF said:


> You are equating contrast and sharpening with resolution, but they are different. Edge sharpness can be improved by a variety of procedures, including USM, and, as Aussieshooter implies, that if edge sharpness is what is important to you, as in architecture and little cropping, then an AA-filter won't cause much problem. But, for resolution, details that are lost by blurring cannot be simply restored by sharpening. So, if you need pixel level resolution, which I often do, the AA-filter does lose detail and gets in the way.



True in general. But when we look at resolution charts for these specific cameras the 5DsR lines are aliasing at the same time that the 5Ds lines are blurring. Imaging Resource found the same "clean" resolution for both cameras for this reason. Unfortunately the cameras exceeded their ability to test for extinction resolution, so we don't have numbers from them that I can interpret as small and you can interpret as big  Or perhaps even find to be identical.


----------



## dtaylor (Dec 6, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Where?



Page 6 of this thread. I would have to dig through old forum posts to try and find the long debate between Alan and I where I posted a half dozen or so comparisons.


----------



## AlanF (Dec 6, 2019)

For those who like measurements and are interested in sensor resolution and how it is affected by f-number and AA-filter, here is a graph from https://www.optyczne.pl/324.4-Test_aparatu-Canon_EOS_5Ds_Rozdzielczość.html

The resolution (MTF in line pairs/mm) decreases with increasing f-number and as the f-number goes through the diffraction limited aperture of f/6.7 for the 5DS and 5DSR, the difference between the two becomes less significant.


----------



## Isaacheus (Dec 6, 2019)

slclick said:


> I understand this point of view but let's pretend for a minute. If the competition didn't have it, would you demand Canon to have it ? In the past year I have seen 90% of the desire for Canon products to be keeping up with the Sony/Joneses...not asking for bodies and lenses for the sake of particular shooters needs.(meaning, they always mention Sony) I couldn't give a rats tuchus what systems which I am not invested in have features others are using. But that's just me I guess, everyone else is in the 'Play catch up Canon/Canon is *******' race. Perhaps it's the Ebay culture of easily parting with and selling your goods (which I find to be a major PITA) for others that fuels the GAS and self deluded needs.
> 
> Could it be the understanding that digital imagery is in it's infancy and I'm still clinging to my film based curmudgeonly views where folks did just fine with much much less?
> 
> I don't need no stinking IBIS, the glass stabilization is more than fine, especially the new 4+ stops lenses.



I understand where you're coming from, and the short answer would be, if your current gear is working well for you, then no.

But, there's also the side that if a brand wants people to buy something new/extra, then they have to add something in there too; people who feel their gear isn't doing what they want, and are looking for an upgrade, will also often be looking at what might fit their needs. For some, being able to stablise primes with IS might be the feature that gets them buying something new.

I know when I was looking at upgrading from my old 6d, I was definitely looking at what other brands were offering, to see if they had what my situation needed. But, it also wasn't until I saw what other people were able to shoot/capture that I started to think the 6d wasn't actually fitting my needs - until then I'd more or less just assumed what I wanted to get were shots that weren't really possible

I think what canon should be considering is not everyone may be happy with what canon are offering in their current models, and needs to be enticing people with features that make them seem like a good option/value. Ibis is one of those things that is useful enough that people will only look at options with it - one family member herr hasn't bought a fuji XT-3, only duet to it's lack of ibis


Edit: above is just about ibis and canon adding/not adding features that sony/nikon etc may have - I'm not meaning that this camera won't appeal to anyone if it doesn't have ibis, just that some people may pass on it for what it lacks, rather than what it adds. I'm sure there'll be people where one particular feature isn't a priority


----------



## Kit. (Dec 6, 2019)

AlanF said:


> For those who like measurements and are interested in sensor resolution and how it is affected by f-number and AA-filter, here is a graph from https://www.optyczne.pl/324.4-Test_aparatu-Canon_EOS_5Ds_Rozdzielczość.html
> 
> The resolution (MTF in line pairs/mm)


Except that MTF50 is not a measure of resolution. MTF10 is more a measure of resolution, and MTF50 is more a measure of perceived sharpness.


----------



## Andy Westwood (Dec 6, 2019)

Very interesting spec, 75MP isn’t for me but I’m sure a high mega pixel camera will popular with many. 

Although portrait photographers should be happy with the new improved eye auto focus I think the return of the joystick would be welcomed by many for fine pinpointing AF when shooting other subjects as the touch, or touch and drag can be a little fiddly for precise focus not needing face and eye AF.

I agree with the majority on here to lose the touch bar, I don’t use that, so it just takes up space on an already crowded body.

For shooting in landscape format the pull out M5 style screen is perfect as your subject is right in front of your lens, however when shooting in portrait format the articulating screen is wonderful especially for us righthanders, so for that reason I much prefer the articulating screen over the pull out screen.

I just wonder what Canon will do with the up and coming R version of the 1D series, I fear too many snapped screens for the hustle and bustle of journalists or busy sports events etc if they were using a screen that pivoted out past the protection of the camera body. I guess in situations such as those they would be best keeping the screen tucked into the back of the camera.

I think it’s an exciting time right now to be a Canon shooter, many might say it’s about time again given rise in Sony and other manufactures in recent years.


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## NicolasA (Dec 6, 2019)

put IBIS on it and take my money canon !


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## Architect1776 (Dec 6, 2019)

dsut4392 said:


> The issue with IBIS and cooling is three-fold, and only the smallest part of the problem (heat generated by the IBIS actuators) is resolved by simply turning IBIS off.
> 
> The two main issues that aren't resolved are related to thermal mass, and thermal path.
> 
> ...



So how does Sony and Nikon overcome this issue?


----------



## Don Haines (Dec 6, 2019)

dsut4392 said:


> The issue with IBIS and cooling is three-fold, and only the smallest part of the problem (heat generated by the IBIS actuators) is resolved by simply turning IBIS off.
> 
> The two main issues that aren't resolved are related to thermal mass, and thermal path.
> 
> ...


This is one of those places where the micro 4/3 cameras have the advantage. The sensor is a quarter of the size, and that means (approximately) a quarter of the mass and presumably, does not have to move as far....

Every design criteria has plusses and minuses


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## mpb001 (Dec 6, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Good for you, however Canon don't care for your thoughts as an individual so you might be waiting a very long time.


I think that the consumer will win here if they need to wait a very long time for IBIS from Canon because they can simply switch brands, so it would be very wise for Canon to listen to what it’s customers, including me would like to see in their cameras, and very soon...


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 6, 2019)

dsut4392 said:


> The issue with IBIS and cooling is three-fold, and only the smallest part of the problem (heat generated by the IBIS actuators) is resolved by simply turning IBIS off.
> 
> The two main issues that aren't resolved are related to thermal mass, and thermal path.
> 
> ...



Fantastic and succinct explanation. Thanks.


----------



## slclick (Dec 6, 2019)

mpb001 said:


> I think that the consumer will win here if they need to wait a very long time for IBIS from Canon because they can simply switch brands, so it would be very wise for Canon to listen to what it’s customers, including me would like to see in their cameras, and very soon...


Once again, 'simply'


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## privatebydesign (Dec 6, 2019)

mpb001 said:


> I think that the consumer will win here if they need to wait a very long time for IBIS from Canon because they can simply switch brands, so it would be very wise for Canon to listen to what it’s customers, including me would like to see in their cameras, and very soon...


Market analysis and hard data will win, Canon spend millions of dollars a year on both, they will release IBIS if and when they project it is financially advantageous for them to do it. Several anonymous forum posters, even if they numbered in the dozens, amount to less than a mosquito bite on an elephant and are neither authoritative nor have a value from an accurate market analysis point of view.


----------



## tron (Dec 6, 2019)

I only wish that if the dual mount is to be implemented (although I consider it a product of imag…. e rumors I mean) that it will be implemented on this specific camera so as to connect big whites without any hassle.


----------



## jayphotoworks (Dec 6, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> So how does Sony and Nikon overcome this issue?



Almost every manufacturer has some form of IBIS. Even Fuji has IBIS on its GFX 100 (although the body is substantially larger). But FF Sony bodies are about the smallest, and none of the current models overheat while recording 4K video with IBIS on. I think most companies have already figured out how to implement this properly, but Canon, not yet having a FF body with IBIS will have to start somewhere if they haven't already.


----------



## JTP (Dec 6, 2019)

Wallybud said:


> just shoot the wedding in mRaw or sRaw. That’s what I’ll be doing ha. Then for certain portraits you can bump the res if you’d like


Why would you drive a Ferrari at half speed? The dynamic range suffers in MRAW and SRAW...


----------



## cayenne (Dec 6, 2019)

slclick said:


> Thank you. Topics such as firearms are not welcome here, it is a gateway drug to yammering on about religion and politics.




It was more of a joke, in that it was a reference to the last scenes in the old Clint Eastwood spaghetti western, a Fist Full of Dollars....where he with his .45 does against the villain with a winchester...you know, the scene where Clint taunts him to 'aim for the heart' or you'll never stop me....keeps getting shot but keeps getting back up, and then when the villain is out of ammo, Clint opens his poncho and reveals a steel iron plate he'd hammered out and had hanging over his chest to protect him?

Maybe I'm getting old....but did no one else get the reference?


----------



## slclick (Dec 6, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> Almost every manufacturer has some form of IBIS. Even Fuji has IBIS on its GFX 100 (although the body is substantially larger). But FF Sony bodies are about the smallest, and none of the current models overheat while recording 4K video with IBIS on. I think most companies have already figured out how to implement this properly, but Canon, not yet having a FF body with IBIS will have to start somewhere if they haven't already.


We have no idea if Canon has figured this out yet. Furthermore, Canon has far more resources than those brands which have already implemented it. They simply have different product and marketing strategies. Knowe how is not the issue.


----------



## AlanF (Dec 6, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Except that MTF50 is not a measure of resolution. MTF10 is more a measure of resolution, and MTF50 is more a measure of perceived sharpness.


You are correct. However, we would expect them in a first approximation to change in parallel. You have brought out the real geek in me and I have gone to the Imatest test plots they present to calculate the MTF10s. They present their Imatest data at f/4.
MTF50 for 5DSR is 0.322 cy/px, ie 78.8 lp/mm
MTF50 for 5DS is 0.274 cy/px, ie 67 lp/mm, the 5DSR being 17.6% higher (average of horizontal and vertical)
Reading the noisy plots gives:
MTF10 for 5DSR ~0.71 cy/px, ie ~173 lp/mm
MTF10 for 5DS ~0.57 cy/px, ie ~139 lp/mm, the 5DSR being ~25% higher.

https://www.optyczne.pl/324.4-Test_aparatu-Canon_EOS_5Ds_Rozdzielczość.html
https://www.optyczne.pl/312.4-Test_aparatu-Canon_EOS_5Ds__R_Rozdzielczość.html


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## jayphotoworks (Dec 6, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Market analysis and hard data will win, Canon spend millions of dollars a year on both, they will release IBIS if and when they project it is financially advantageous for them to do it. Several anonymous forum posters, even if they numbered in the dozens, amount to less than a mosquito bite on an elephant and are neither authoritative nor have a value from an accurate market analysis point of view.



Yes, but also, within the FF segment which has a specific demographic (~10% of the overall camera market share), Sony has taken both Nikon and Canon's lead this last year outselling both its competitors FF MILC and FF DSLR bodies combined in quantity and value via BCN in Japan. Those buyers MUST clearly find something appealing with Sony's FF products to show that kind of growth even when they are continually criticized for poor color science/ergonomics/overheating/weathersealing/etc.... Those buyers are cross shopping $2500-$5000 bodies, not $600-$900 entry level body+lens kits and perhaps things like IBIS and dual slots do matter.

But I understand Canon doesn't have to cater to this crowd, because it still has 90% of the rest of the camera market and that market is what pays its bills. Yet, I also know we went from dual and triple lens smartphones in 2018 to 108MP 1/1.33" penta-cams in 2019, so that 90% of the market is also under the most pressure from being eroded by smartphones.

Either way, we will know soon because we are at the end of 2019 and Canon's new FF MILC products are due early next year. I'm hoping they will offer something I personally want in a FF system, but as you said, I'm just a mosquito bite on an elephant. Even the lot of us only make up 10% of the market...


----------



## amorse (Dec 6, 2019)

cayenne said:


> It was more of a joke, in that it was a reference to the last scenes in the old Clint Eastwood spaghetti western, a Fist Full of Dollars....where he with his .45 does against the villain with a winchester...you know, the scene where Clint taunts him to 'aim for the heart' or you'll never stop me....keeps getting shot but keeps getting back up, and then when the villain is out of ammo, Clint opens his poncho and reveals a steel iron plate he'd hammered out and had hanging over his chest to protect him?
> 
> Maybe I'm getting old....but did no one else get the reference?


I can't comment on you getting old, maybe I'm too young. With that said, that sounds like a scene I want to see haha.


----------



## AlanF (Dec 6, 2019)

cayenne said:


> It was more of a joke, in that it was a reference to the last scenes in the old Clint Eastwood spaghetti western, a Fist Full of Dollars....where he with his .45 does against the villain with a winchester...you know, the scene where Clint taunts him to 'aim for the heart' or you'll never stop me....keeps getting shot but keeps getting back up, and then when the villain is out of ammo, Clint opens his poncho and reveals a steel iron plate he'd hammered out and had hanging over his chest to protect him?
> 
> Maybe I'm getting old....but did no one else get the reference?


I got it (and it was the basis of my earlier joke, which you had realised)! It was a great spaghetti western


----------



## cayenne (Dec 6, 2019)

amorse said:


> I can't comment on you getting old, maybe I'm too young. With that said, that sounds like a scene I want to see haha.



OH by all means, if you've not seen the Clint Eastwood Trilogy Spaghetti westerns, do find time maybe on a cold weekend day at home, and watch them.

I love them all, but of course my favorite is The Good, The Bad and Then Ugly...

But that last scene I mentioned in Fist Full of Dollars, it is a reference to something that was said earlier in the movie...and worked out very well.

The trilogy:
Fist Full of Dollars
For a Few Dollars More
The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

They aren't necessarily a sequence of movies that have a continuing story...you can watch them in any order, and I think they get better and better as you watch them in order (story, production, etc)....

They are true classics and hope you have time to enjoy them some time.

Make sure and hunt for editions you can watch that are in wide screen format....Sergio Leone used it to perfection as an artist, IMHO.

Ok, sorry about hijacking the thread....but this hit upon some of my fav movies.....

Back to camera rumors!!


C


----------



## AlanF (Dec 6, 2019)

cayenne said:


> Fist Full of Dollars
> For a Few Dollars More
> The Good, The Bad and The Ugly


That pretty well sums up the top end of the camera market (and somewhat lower as well).


----------



## amorse (Dec 6, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> ...Sony has taken both Nikon and Canon's lead this last year outselling both its competitors FF MILC and FF DSLR bodies combined in quantity and value via BCN in Japan. Those buyers MUST clearly find something appealing with Sony's FF products to show that kind of growth even when they are continually criticized for poor color science/ergonomics/overheating/weathersealing/etc....


I don't mean to downplay Sony's success, they have done very well as of late, but I would suspect that the driving factor in making up so much growth in the full frame market was related to them releasing the a7III with very competitive specs at a substantially lower price than the competition, combined with a lot of favourable press. 

I mean the a7III shipped at launch in a kit at $2200 and had *arguably* comparable specifications to the 5D IV which shipped body only for $3500 and over $4000 with a lens. I think we can safely assume that the a7III was a big driver considering that whenever we see statistics of best selling mirrorless cameras (APS-C or full frame), the a7III is amongst the top sellers, despite being substantially more expensive than bodies like the m50 or a6000 etc. which tend to lead that sales space. We know full frame bodies are not large volume sellers, but the a7III certainly seemed to be a pretty large volume seller when compared to other full frame bodies. 

Part of me suspects that this is why Canon released the R and RP at the price points they did - both cameras are pretty affordable by Canon's standards (with the R becoming more so affordable later in its life). I think Canon even suggested that their lower sales numbers were due to very significant competition on price points, which resulted in some hefty discounts (even now) so there may be some truth in that hypothesis.


----------



## privatebydesign (Dec 6, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> Yes, but also, within the FF segment which has a specific demographic (~10% of the overall camera market share), Sony has taken both Nikon and Canon's lead this last year outselling both its competitors FF MILC and FF DSLR bodies combined in quantity and value via BCN in Japan. Those buyers MUST clearly find something appealing with Sony's FF products to show that kind of growth even when they are continually criticized for poor color science/ergonomics/overheating/weathersealing/etc.... Those buyers are cross shopping $2500-$5000 bodies, not $600-$900 entry level body+lens kits and perhaps things like IBIS and dual slots do matter.
> 
> But I understand Canon doesn't have to cater to this crowd, because it still has 90% of the rest of the camera market and that market is what pays its bills. Yet, I also know we went from dual and triple lens smartphones in 2018 to 108MP 1/1.33" penta-cams in 2019, so that 90% of the market is also under the most pressure from being eroded by smartphones.
> 
> Either way, we will know soon because we are at the end of 2019 and Canon's new FF MILC products are due early next year. I'm hoping they will offer something I personally want in a FF system, but as you said, I'm just a mosquito bite on an elephant. Even the lot of us only make up 10% of the market...


The Japanese market, particularly the higher end market, is incredibly new tech sensitive, the are also very model age sensitive. What new high end FF cameras have Canon released in the last year as opposed to Sony? There is your answer. Next year when Canon probably release high end FF DSLR's and MILC's do you think Sony will still best them in that very narrow market segment?


----------



## Architect1776 (Dec 6, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> Almost every manufacturer has some form of IBIS. Even Fuji has IBIS on its GFX 100 (although the body is substantially larger). But FF Sony bodies are about the smallest, and none of the current models overheat while recording 4K video with IBIS on. I think most companies have already figured out how to implement this properly, but Canon, not yet having a FF body with IBIS will have to start somewhere if they haven't already.



Buy a Sony, take it apart and copy the crap out of it with some small variation, problem solved.


----------



## jeanluc (Dec 6, 2019)

kurt765 said:


> “Focused on dynamic range”
> I’ll believe that when I see it. Has Canon ever acknowledged that they are behind in this department?


IMHO DR in 5D4 and R is actually pretty good, but any improvement is obviously a good thing.


----------



## raptor3x (Dec 6, 2019)

dsut4392 said:


> Secondly, because IBIS by definition means the sensor has to be able to move in relation to the lens mount, it also means the thermal path between the sensor and the outside of the body is seriously compromised (in the absence of ducted or peltier cooling). With a traditional fixed sensor, you can have a solid high density thermal path allowing heat from the sensor to be conducted to the body, from where it can be shed by radiant heat loss. With IBIS, you have at best a thin flexible connector with much lower thermal conductivity between the sensor and body shell, so it's much harder to move the heat out.



This isn't correct. The majority of IBIS systems move on a series of surface bearings which provide a fair amount of heat transfer surface. It seems like many people think that an IBIS sensor is somehow floating in space suspended by magnets or something which is not true. IBIS is really not a big deal for heat transfer, just look at how the Sony 6300, which has no IBIS, has worse overheating characteristics than the A6500, which does have IBIS.


----------



## unfocused (Dec 6, 2019)

jeanluc said:


> IMHO DR in 5D4 and R is actually pretty good, but any improvement is obviously a good thing.


Well, even the much maligned DPR has said that Dynamic Range on the current generation of Canon sensors is pretty good.


----------



## amorse (Dec 6, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Well, even the much maligned DPR has said that Dynamic Range on the current generation of Canon sensors is pretty good.


DR was something I wanted to improve upon when I was using a 6D, but honestly with the 5D IV it hasn't been an issue at all. I just don't find myself clipping that much, and I haven't found the shadow noise disruptive at all in recovery or processing. I think as long as you know the camera's limitations you can work around them. I don't think my images would be any better if I had an extra stop of DR, frankly.


----------



## Sporgon (Dec 6, 2019)

cayenne said:


> The trilogy:
> Fist Full of Dollars
> For a Few Dollars More
> The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
> ...



Just to be picky; The Good, The Bad & The Ugly was shot last but in the time line of the Trilogy it's the first. We see where Blonde gets his poncho and it's set in the American Civil war when Clint is using a percussion revolver converted to use metallic cartridges. In the other two he's using the Colt SAA introduced in 1873. 

Great films and great musical scores. 

Yes I got the reference and i don't think it's cause for anyone to get on their high horse with or without a Peacemaker


----------



## MadScotsman (Dec 6, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Market analysis and hard data will win, Canon spend millions of dollars a year on both, they will release IBIS if and when they project it is financially advantageous for them to do it. Several anonymous forum posters, even if they numbered in the dozens, amount to less than a mosquito bite on an elephant and are neither authoritative nor have a value from an accurate market analysis point of view.



And Canon’s numbers reflect this strategy. In a red ocean market that’s drawing a LOT of blood across ALL of the players, Canon continues to survive and even prosper (relatively) on the strength of their marketing decisions.

Listening to photo forum amateurs is not in their best interest.

And they know it.


----------



## slclick (Dec 6, 2019)

Sporgon said:


> Just to be picky; The Good, The Bad & The Ugly was shot last but in the time line of the Trilogy it's the first. We see where Blonde gets his poncho and it's set in the American Civil war when Clint is using a percussion revolver converted to use metallic cartridges. In the other two he's using the Colt SAA introduced in 1873.
> 
> Great films and great musical scores.
> 
> Yes I got the reference and i don't think it's cause for anyone to get on their high horse with or without a Peacemaker


I got the reference, yet not immediately since I do love Clints westerns however not big on memorizing lines. My mind wasn't on film when I posted that response, just wanting the forum to stay on topic and not stray into typical areas that degrade good dialog. Not a high horse, just cautionary. Why you would judge it so is even more curious. Wouldn't you agree that that path is a slippery slope? I like it here, I enjoy your input as well but I have seen it far too often and was just asking to steer clear of a certain volatile topic. I misinterpreted the post and , well, being human and fallible, it happens. My apologies.


----------



## Sporgon (Dec 6, 2019)

slclick said:


> I got the reference, yet not immediately since I do love Clints westerns however not big on memorizing lines. My mind wasn't on film when I posted that response, just wanting the forum to stay on topic and not stray into typical areas that degrade good dialog. Not a high horse, just cautionary. Why you would judge it so is even more curious. Wouldn't you agree that that path is a slippery slope? I like it here, I enjoy your input as well but I have seen it far too often and was just asking to steer clear of a certain volatile topic. I misinterpreted the post and , well, being human and fallible, it happens. My apologies.



Apologies, I was using "high horse" as a joke on the Western theme  

I know what you mean and don't disagree.


----------



## danielguillamon (Dec 6, 2019)




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## slclick (Dec 6, 2019)

danielguillamon said:


> View attachment 187715


Tell us more...


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## Isaacheus (Dec 6, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Well, even the much maligned DPR has said that Dynamic Range on the current generation of Canon sensors is pretty good.



With the exception of the 6dmk2 and eos RP, where the DR is lower than the majority of the current market, it looks like Canon have bridged the DR gap.

I think these two camera are the only reason this con can still be used against Canon sensors

(edited R to RP, thanks Joules for the typo catch)


----------



## Joules (Dec 6, 2019)

Isaacheus said:


> With the exception of the 6dmk2 and eos r, where the DR is lower than the majority of the current market, it looks like Canon have bridged the DR gap.
> 
> I think these two camera are the only reason this con can still be used against Canon sensors


Did you mean the RP? The R has the same sensor and DR as the 5D IV which is almost the best Canon has to offer. The 6D II and RP share the same sensor.


----------



## Isaacheus (Dec 6, 2019)

Joules said:


> Did you mean the RP? The R has the same sensor and DR as the 5D IV which is almost the best Canon has to offer. The 6D II and RP share the same sensor.



Whoops, yes, RP, not the R (which from what I can tell, has a perfectly reasonable sensor)


----------



## Don Haines (Dec 6, 2019)

cayenne said:


> It was more of a joke, in that it was a reference to the last scenes in the old Clint Eastwood spaghetti western, a Fist Full of Dollars....where he with his .45 does against the villain with a winchester...you know, the scene where Clint taunts him to 'aim for the heart' or you'll never stop me....keeps getting shot but keeps getting back up, and then when the villain is out of ammo, Clint opens his poncho and reveals a steel iron plate he'd hammered out and had hanging over his chest to protect him?
> 
> Maybe I'm getting old....but did no one else get the reference?


I did.
I also thought about the description of Bass Elder’s duel in the John Wayne movie The Sons of Katie Elder


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## Isaacheus (Dec 6, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> The Japanese market, particularly the higher end market, is incredibly new tech sensitive, the are also very model age sensitive. What new high end FF cameras have Canon released in the last year as opposed to Sony? There is your answer. Next year when Canon probably release high end FF DSLR's and MILC's do you think Sony will still best them in that very narrow market segment?



I think the gap may be closer than Canon would like - Canon haven't brought out a higher end camera since the 5dmk4, and I wonder how many people have started trying other options in that time where nothing new was coming from Canon.

The z7 doesn't seem to have changed nikons fortunes as such, so a new high end Canon may not be the 'be all, end alll silver bullet' to Sony's rise.


----------



## cayenne (Dec 6, 2019)

Sporgon said:


> Just to be picky; The Good, The Bad & The Ugly was shot last but in the time line of the Trilogy it's the first. We see where Blonde gets his poncho and it's set in the American Civil war when Clint is using a percussion revolver converted to use metallic cartridges. In the other two he's using the Colt SAA introduced in 1873.
> 
> Great films and great musical scores.
> 
> Yes I got the reference and i don't think it's cause for anyone to get on their high horse with or without a Peacemaker




WoW!!

Thanks for the insight on the timeline order!! Somehow I totally missed that!!

Hmm...I may have to watch them all again now. Thankfully, it seems last couple years, on Xmas day one of the cable channels does a marathon of Clint's movies, usually the westerns!!

C


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## AlanF (Dec 6, 2019)

Sporgon said:


> Just to be picky; The Good, The Bad & The Ugly was shot last but in the time line of the Trilogy it's the first. We see where Blonde gets his poncho and it's set in the American Civil war when Clint is using a percussion revolver converted to use metallic cartridges. In the other two he's using the Colt SAA introduced in 1873.
> 
> Great films and great musical scores.
> 
> Yes I got the reference and i don't think it's cause for anyone to get on their high horse with or without a Peacemaker


A Fistful of Dollars is a knock-off of Yojimbo by the iconic Japanese director Akira Kurosawa, who also directed the Seven Samurai, which was knocked off by the Magnificent Seven. Actually, the westerns are really good and as enjoyable as the original Japanese. But, the original Kurosawa are works of genius.


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## Sporgon (Dec 6, 2019)

AlanF said:


> A Fistful of Dollars is a knock-off of Yojimbo by the iconic Japanese director Akira Kurosawa, who also directed the Seven Samurai, which was knocked off by the Magnificent Seven. Actually, the westerns are really good and as enjoyable as the original Japanese. But, the original Kurosawa are works of genius.


Thanks for that, I'll look them up


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## Occipitals (Dec 6, 2019)

These rumours are very enocouraging. If true, this camera will be a worth upgrade from my 5D Mark IV.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Dec 7, 2019)

raptor3x said:


> This isn't correct. The majority of IBIS systems move on a series of surface bearings which provide a fair amount of heat transfer surface. It seems like many people think that an IBIS sensor is somehow floating in space suspended by magnets or something which is not true.



It's fair amount but not comparable with a fixed bearing which provides larger contact surface for heat transfer.



raptor3x said:


> IBIS is really not a big deal for heat transfer, just look at how the Sony 6300, which has no IBIS, has worse overheating characteristics than the A6500, which does have IBIS.



You're mixing up sensor heat and CPU heat and probably missed the origin of this discussion about the sensor heat. Sony's overheating is all about CPU overheating. Sensor heating in question won't affect the overall camera functionality, it'll increase the read noise from the sensor and originally we were talking about tradeoffs between having an IBIS and a lesser sensor noise.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Dec 7, 2019)

jayphotoworks said:


> Yes, but also, within the FF segment which has a specific demographic (~10% of the overall camera market share), Sony has taken both Nikon and Canon's lead this last year outselling both its competitors FF MILC and FF DSLR bodies combined in quantity and value via BCN in Japan. Those buyers MUST clearly find something appealing with Sony's FF products to show that kind of growth even when they are continually criticized for poor color science/ergonomics/overheating/weathersealing/etc.... Those buyers are cross shopping $2500-$5000 bodies, not $600-$900 entry level body+lens kits and perhaps things like IBIS and dual slots do matter.
> 
> But I understand Canon doesn't have to cater to this crowd, because it still has 90% of the rest of the camera market and that market is what pays its bills. Yet, I also know we went from dual and triple lens smartphones in 2018 to 108MP 1/1.33" penta-cams in 2019, so that 90% of the market is also under the most pressure from being eroded by smartphones.
> 
> Either way, we will know soon because we are at the end of 2019 and Canon's new FF MILC products are due early next year. I'm hoping they will offer something I personally want in a FF system, but as you said, I'm just a mosquito bite on an elephant. Even the lot of us only make up 10% of the market...



I think a very large percentage of those people swapping to Sony are doing so because they believe(wrongly) that a sony camera will somehow improve their work. That is a mark of Sonys excellent advertising. Cudos to sony for that. Then there are the younger demographic getting into photography who have to have the latest and greatest tech. Obviously they will go sony because they think(wrongly) that Sony will make them better photographers than Canon or Nikon etc. Ergonomics are not really a concern with this demographic because most are coming from phones anyway. Sonys genius has nothing to do with producing superior equipment. On the contrary it is only the last release(A7r4) that has matched the competition. Sonys genius has been marketing


----------



## privatebydesign (Dec 7, 2019)

slclick said:


> Tell us more...


Why? It's obviously a Photoshopped R! The R image came from Canon themselves as one of their press images.









EOS R


By Canon EMEA




www.irista.com


----------



## SecureGSM (Dec 7, 2019)

Yeah, Touch Bar is to be gone in Rs, apparently. So.... the photo above is obviously of something rather else )


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## slclick (Dec 7, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Why? It's obviously a Photoshopped R! The R image came from Canon themselves as one of their press images.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't write tell us more due to my incredible interest or wonder. I wrote it as in 'You think you're pretty clever' as in the Willy Wonka meme school of thought.


----------



## deleteme (Dec 7, 2019)

unfocused said:


> This is another thing that makes me skeptical. Can someone explain what they can possibly mean by a "larger" EVF. It's already as large as any DSLR.


5.76 MP EVF is larger. They can also increase the magnification to mimic the experience medium format users always claim is superior to a 35mm DSLR.


----------



## danielguillamon (Dec 7, 2019)

slclick said:


> I didn't write tell us more due to my incredible interest or wonder. I wrote it as in 'You think you're pretty clever' as in the Willy Wonka meme school of thought.



Sorry, I didn't want to confuse, i made the photoshopped image to show what I think would be the best option (for me) for the new R


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## danielguillamon (Dec 7, 2019)

Touchbar or C1+C2 ?


----------



## MadScotsman (Dec 7, 2019)

danielguillamon said:


> Touchbar or C1+C2 ?
> 
> View attachment 187747



No more buttons.

I want full voice integration. 

“Alexa, set my aperature to F2.8”
“Alexa, set my shutter speed to 150”

Or I’m switching to SONY!


----------



## SecureGSM (Dec 7, 2019)

MadScotsman said:


> No more buttons.
> 
> I want full voice integration.
> 
> ...



Are you saying that Canon Rs is powered by Android OS? Wow...


----------



## Architect1776 (Dec 7, 2019)

Isaacheus said:


> I think the gap may be closer than Canon would like - Canon haven't brought out a higher end camera since the 5dmk4, and I wonder how many people have started trying other options in that time where nothing new was coming from Canon.
> 
> The z7 doesn't seem to have changed nikons fortunes as such, so a new high end Canon may not be the 'be all, end alll silver bullet' to Sony's rise.



The aggressive way Canon is developing incredible RF lenses that are way beyond anything Sony has even dreamed of or can do with the small mount will carry Canon through. Cameras come and go but great optics are far more difficult. Canon will have incredible camera bodies soon enough. Same pattern as the EF system that when completed totally dominated the market especially the pro market. I doubt they will just roll over and let Sony take the #1 spot without a fight. Nikon rolled over and quit by staying with the horribly antiquated flippy levers and whirly gears just to salvage the obsolete mount for "Legacy". when Canon destroyed them and they have never recovered, I doubt Canon will make the same mistake as Nikon did


----------



## MadScotsman (Dec 7, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> The aggressive way Canon is developing incredible RF lenses that are way beyond anything Sony has even dreamed of or can do with the small mount will carry Canon through. Cameras come and go but great optics are far more difficult. Canon will have incredible camera bodies soon enough. Same pattern as the EF system that when completed totally dominated the market especially the pro market. I doubt they will just roll over and let Sony take the #1 spot without a fight. Nikon rolled over and quit by staying with the horribly antiquated flippy levers and whirly gears just to salvage the obsolete mount for "Legacy". when Canon destroyed them and they have never recovered, I doubt Canon will make the same mistake as Nikon did



This is exactly why most (actual) professionals are still using Canon.


----------



## Kit. (Dec 7, 2019)

MadScotsman said:


> No more buttons.
> 
> I want full voice integration.
> 
> ...


Such Alexa skill is totally possible with the current Canon cameras, but won't work with the majority of current Sonys. Sony is way behind Canon in wireless tethering.


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## MadScotsman (Dec 7, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Such Alexa skill is totally possible with the current Canon cameras, but won't work with the majority of current Sonys. Sony is way behind Canon in wireless tethering.



They (Canon) had a contest to develop an app with their new camera API recently. 

No joke.

I started developing an app too overlay downloadable, selectable grids on the view, but it turned out to be a bit more work than in wanted to invest.

I need to see who won that contest.


----------



## AlanF (Dec 7, 2019)

MadScotsman said:


> No more buttons.
> 
> I want full voice integration.
> 
> ...


I can't set my Canon shutter speed to 150 even manually.


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## Don Haines (Dec 7, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Are you saying that Canon Rs is powered by Android OS? Wow...


Yeah.... Window’s would be much better....

now how did I change the aperture again? Oh yes.... control alt f7 to get into the menu, select settings, select picture taking, select lens settings, select lens....... oh crap, it’s a Tamron lens! Go back out, log into Tamron, download the control pack, install it, reset camera, wait for camera to do upgrades, log into camera, control alt F7 to get into menu, select settings, select picture taking, select lens settings, select lens, select aperture, select F5.6! Are you sure? Select yes.step all the way back out of the menu system, realize you did not click on the confirm box, and put the camera into auto mode


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## slclick (Dec 7, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> Yeah.... Window’s would be much better....
> 
> now how did I change the aperture again? Oh yes.... control alt f7 to get into the menu, select settings, select picture taking, select lens settings, select lens....... oh crap, it’s a Tamron lens! Go back out, log into Tamron, download the control pack, install it, reset camera, wait for camera to do upgrades, log into camera, control alt F7 to get into menu, select settings, select picture taking, select lens settings, select lens, select aperture, select F5.6! Are you sure? Select yes.step all the way back out of the menu system, realize you did not click on the confirm box, and put the camera into auto mode


Then imagine all the opportunities for virus protection suite sales on your camera.


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## jedy (Dec 7, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> I think a very large percentage of those people swapping to Sony are doing so because they believe(wrongly) that a sony camera will somehow improve their work. That is a mark of Sonys excellent advertising. Cudos to sony for that. Then there are the younger demographic getting into photography who have to have the latest and greatest tech. Obviously they will go sony because they think(wrongly) that Sony will make them better photographers than Canon or Nikon etc. Ergonomics are not really a concern with this demographic because most are coming from phones anyway. Sonys genius has nothing to do with producing superior equipment. On the contrary it is only the last release(A7r4) that has matched the competition. Sonys genius has been marketing


Sorry but this is nonsense. You sound a little bitter about Sony’s success as you unfairly insult Sony users. Before I respond, I’m no Sony fanboy. I treat all cameras as simply tools to get the job done. Firstly, the reason many people have gone over to Sony is they had been fed up waiting for Canon (and Nikon) to step into the mirrorless market. Secondly, Sony, with the A7III have managed to create a remarkable camera for $2000 that has two card slots and IBIS (of course the A7III isn’t a perfect camera, far from it). Canon has so far nothing to compete on that price level. IBIS and two card slots look set to appear in a high end Canon that very few will be able to afford. Add to that Canon’s superb but expensive lenses. There are quite a number of Sony lenses and third party lenses for people who don’t need high end, big expensive glass. Sony glass might not be quite on par with L lenses but many working photographers use and are more than happy with them for the work they do. Also bear in mind that Canon’s most successful cameras are the consumer EOS M range. Simply producing superior products with prices out of reach for most consumers isn’t a measure of success.


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## Isaacheus (Dec 7, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> The aggressive way Canon is developing incredible RF lenses that are way beyond anything Sony has even dreamed of or can do with the small mount will carry Canon through. Cameras come and go but great optics are far more difficult. Canon will have incredible camera bodies soon enough. Same pattern as the EF system that when completed totally dominated the market especially the pro market. I doubt they will just roll over and let Sony take the #1 spot without a fight. Nikon rolled over and quit by staying with the horribly antiquated flippy levers and whirly gears just to salvage the obsolete mount for "Legacy". when Canon destroyed them and they have never recovered, I doubt Canon will make the same mistake as Nikon did



The new RF glass looks really nice, so it seems canon are on to a good thing here. My point is that I don't think canon will dominate the market as easily as they did with EF - Sony has had a good chance to establish, and they have kept releasing good lenses and new bodies themselves while canon have brought out the RF mount (I wasn't around when EF came out, but it sounds like Nikon waited for a lot longer to do anything about the market shift?)




jedy said:


> Sorry but this is nonsense. You sound a little bitter about Sony’s success as you unfairly insult Sony users. Before I respond, I’m no Sony fanboy. I treat all cameras as simply tools to get the job done. Firstly, the reason many people have gone over to Sony is they had been fed up waiting for Canon (and Nikon) to step into the mirrorless market. Secondly, Sony, with the A7III have managed to create a remarkable camera for $2000 that has two card slots and IBIS (of course the A7III isn’t a perfect camera, far from it). Canon has so far nothing to compete on that price level. IBIS and two card slots look set to appear in a high end Canon that very few will be able to afford. Add to that Canon’s superb but expensive lenses. There are quite a number of Sony lenses and third party lenses for people who don’t need high end, big expensive glass. Sony glass might not be quite on par with L lenses but many pro’s use and are more than happy with them anyway. Also bear in mind that Canon’s most successful cameras are the consumer EOS M range. Simply producing superior products with prices out of reach for most consumers isn’t a measure of success.



And I think this is where the leadership race may be a lot closer than Canon would think/like - the RF glass is very nice, but Sony have some very solid options at the mid range bracket, and they have done the right thing with the open mount specs.
The R camera looks like a good piece of kit, but it's going to be compared to the likes of the Sony A7iii, and body specs do make a difference to what people will go for. Both have advantages, and I wonder if the race will be a bit more even this time round


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## Kit. (Dec 7, 2019)

Isaacheus said:


> I wasn't around when EF came out,


It was about the same as it is now, except that Minolta is branded "Sony" these days.

Of course, prior performance does not guarantee future results.


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## Isaacheus (Dec 7, 2019)

Kit. said:


> It was about the same as it is now, except that Minolta is branded "Sony" these days.
> 
> Of course, prior performance does not guarantee future results.



Ah, I was meaning the Nikon/Canon battle. I got the impression Minolta was not one of the big guys at the time?


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## Kit. (Dec 7, 2019)

Isaacheus said:


> Ah, I was meaning the Nikon/Canon battle. I got the impression Minolta was not one of the big guys at the time?


Why? Minolta was one of The Big Three (SLR camera manufacturers) and had the most feature-rich cameras. Technology-wise, Canon was a follower.


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## mpb001 (Dec 7, 2019)

I use a 5DIV and while I am very happy with it, I would like my next Canon camera to have IBIS and a new generation sensor, up from the one in the 5DIV. I would be happy with one between say 32-40 MP. I guess I am sort of speculating over a 2nd gen R body. An R Mark II, I guess. I use the f4 series of L glass, a camera like the one discussed here of 75 MP is nice but much more than I need or want right now.


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## peters (Dec 7, 2019)

jedy said:


> Sorry but this is nonsense. You sound a little bitter about Sony’s success as you unfairly insult Sony users. Before I respond, I’m no Sony fanboy. I treat all cameras as simply tools to get the job done. Firstly, the reason many people have gone over to Sony is they had been fed up waiting for Canon (and Nikon) to step into the mirrorless market. Secondly, Sony, with the A7III have managed to create a remarkable camera for $2000 that has two card slots and IBIS (of course the A7III isn’t a perfect camera, far from it). Canon has so far nothing to compete on that price level. IBIS and two card slots look set to appear in a high end Canon that very few will be able to afford. Add to that Canon’s superb but expensive lenses. There are quite a number of Sony lenses and third party lenses for people who don’t need high end, big expensive glass. Sony glass might not be quite on par with L lenses but many working photographers use and are more than happy with them for the work they do. Also bear in mind that Canon’s most successful cameras are the consumer EOS M range. Simply producing superior products with prices out of reach for most consumers isn’t a measure of success.


I recently added the a7R IV to my kit (5d IV and 1DX II) and I must say, I am not as exited as I hoped I would be. 
Its nice for travel and landscape, hands down. But everything involving humans is quite disapointing because of the colors. Especialy the Auto White Balance and the skintones under artificial lights are realy bad. It takes a lot of editing to get a pleasent result. 
I wanted to use the a7r with the silent shutter for weddings, but it turned out, that "anti flicker" wont work with silent shutter enabled. Under pretty much EVERY electric lights you get very bad stripes in the image without anti-flicker. So the silent shutter turned out to be a disapointment. I didnt thought this would be so much of a problem, but it realy ruins the photos. 
The resolution and dynmic range is nice to have, but not that much of a gamechanger. Its certainly great for product shots (and landscape) though, where you get way better cutouts and retouch. 
The exposure simulation is quite nice to have, but the EVF is pretty small and blurry. Its not realy a noteable benefit for my work (I never had much of a problem with exposure on the 5D IV)

Anyway - I hope canon releases a good 1DX III with IBIS - than I am all set up on the video front. The only thing I miss right now on the 1DX II is ibis. IQ, AF, 4k60 etc is realy great. On the sony and especialy on our Panasonics its realy a treat to have IBIS.
I also hope they release soon a good mirrrorless camera with a high resolution and a "professional" body with good ergonomics and dual card slots. 
If both of this happens, I am totaly fine with sticking to canon =)


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## Ozarker (Dec 7, 2019)

jedy said:


> Sorry but this is nonsense. You sound a little bitter about Sony’s success as you unfairly insult Sony users. Before I respond, I’m no Sony fanboy. I treat all cameras as simply tools to get the job done. Firstly, the reason many people have gone over to Sony is they had been fed up waiting for Canon (and Nikon) to step into the mirrorless market. Secondly, Sony, with the A7III have managed to create a remarkable camera for $2000 that has two card slots and IBIS (of course the A7III isn’t a perfect camera, far from it). Canon has so far nothing to compete on that price level. IBIS and two card slots look set to appear in a high end Canon that very few will be able to afford. Add to that Canon’s superb but expensive lenses. There are quite a number of Sony lenses and third party lenses for people who don’t need high end, big expensive glass. Sony glass might not be quite on par with L lenses but many working photographers use and are more than happy with them for the work they do. Also bear in mind that Canon’s most successful cameras are the consumer EOS M range. Simply producing superior products with prices out of reach for most consumers isn’t a measure of success.


I don't believe he was trying to insult Sony users. That's not how I read it at all. He praised Sony's marketing strategy and was talking about new camera users, not veteran users.


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## slclick (Dec 7, 2019)

jedy said:


> Sorry but this is nonsense. You sound a little bitter about Sony’s success as you unfairly insult Sony users. Before I respond, I’m no Sony fanboy. I treat all cameras as simply tools to get the job done. Firstly, the reason many people have gone over to Sony is they had been fed up waiting for Canon (and Nikon) to step into the mirrorless market. Secondly, Sony, with the A7III have managed to create a remarkable camera for $2000 that has two card slots and IBIS (of course the A7III isn’t a perfect camera, far from it). Canon has so far nothing to compete on that price level. IBIS and two card slots look set to appear in a high end Canon that very few will be able to afford. Add to that Canon’s superb but expensive lenses. There are quite a number of Sony lenses and third party lenses for people who don’t need high end, big expensive glass. Sony glass might not be quite on par with L lenses but many working photographers use and are more than happy with them for the work they do. Also bear in mind that Canon’s most successful cameras are the consumer EOS M range. Simply producing superior products with prices out of reach for most consumers isn’t a measure of success.


Body over glass? Glass over body? Balance? These are the three camps...whether it's what one prefers, uses or dreams of they are the realities we live in and choose. Canon has created an ecosystem of lenses over body for many strictly by creating the phenomenal EF lens catalog and now adding the RF lenses to that compatibility. The bodies will come, true, announcement pricing will be prohibitive to some but they always fall, and the same applies to Sony. Sony existing body prices continue to be compared apples to oranges to Canon's CR3 body prices. Then you have your geography for cost.

When it all comes down to it, it's an expensive hobby, sport, lifestyle and profession for top notch gear and no matter if you fetishize the items or view them as a tool (which has become a popular go to phrase as of late here) the features are not that dissimilar and it comes down to what you can do with them. Every time I see incredible images produced with a Rebel or M series camera it reminds me the IBIS, DR and other spec blather is so crazy ridiculous.

Now, that said, ergonomics, menus and color, mated with customer service and build quality are another matter (One which Canon has got the rest by the balls)


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## Inspired (Dec 7, 2019)

Ok, so for Canon to bring it they would need ibis for those great RF lens and better eye af for sure. The thing mostly needed would be the ability to have various raw sizes so you can save Eg 36mp, 42mp, 50mp along with the 70pm because only a few people would be interested in files so big and they need to capitalize on the majority to rival once and for all the alpha camera. Let's see if they can get the job done.


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## Isaacheus (Dec 7, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Why? Minolta was one of The Big Three (SLR camera manufacturers) and had the most feature-rich cameras. Technology-wise, Canon was a follower.



Ah, looking on the wikipedia page, it has a comment how Minolta wasn't able to compete well against the 'Big Two of Canon and Nikon', so I thought the duopoly had been around for some time. It may have just been referring to the change to digital however?


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## Ozarker (Dec 8, 2019)

Inspired said:


> Ok, so for Canon to bring it they would need ibis for those great RF lens and better eye af for sure. The thing mostly needed would be the ability to have various raw sizes so you can save Eg 36mp, 42mp, 50mp along with the 70pm because only a few people would be interested in files so big and they need to capitalize on the majority to rival once and for all the alpha camera. Let's see if they can get the job done.


The eye AF is already fantastic. Firmware 1.4.0


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## navastronia (Dec 8, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> The eye AF is already fantastic. Firmware 1.4.0



it really is pretty damn cool. I got an RP a month ago and I still haven’t had a proper portrait shoot with it, yet - really excited to.


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## Aussie shooter (Dec 8, 2019)

jedy said:


> Sorry but this is nonsense. You sound a little bitter about Sony’s success as you unfairly insult Sony users. Before I respond, I’m no Sony fanboy. I treat all cameras as simply tools to get the job done. Firstly, the reason many people have gone over to Sony is they had been fed up waiting for Canon (and Nikon) to step into the mirrorless market. Secondly, Sony, with the A7III have managed to create a remarkable camera for $2000 that has two card slots and IBIS (of course the A7III isn’t a perfect camera, far from it). Canon has so far nothing to compete on that price level. IBIS and two card slots look set to appear in a high end Canon that very few will be able to afford. Add to that Canon’s superb but expensive lenses. There are quite a number of Sony lenses and third party lenses for people who don’t need high end, big expensive glass. Sony glass might not be quite on par with L lenses but many working photographers use and are more than happy with them for the work they do. Also bear in mind that Canon’s most successful cameras are the consumer EOS M range. Simply producing superior products with prices out of reach for most consumers isn’t a measure of success.



Not sure what is nonsense about it. SONY shooters are constantly telling us why they chose sony. Usually because sony have the DR that produces amazing images when crippled canon cant. Or that sonys 4k is the one and only thing that matters in the world. They clearly think these features will make them good whereas if they had a canon they would be failures. And i am not sure how i am bitter about that. I applaud Sony for milking that cash cow with what have (untill the a7r4) been sub par offerings. And the lack of appreciation of ergonomics by people who go from phones to FF is understandable so sony took 10 years to care about it because they didnt have to. Again. I applaud sony for being successful without the need to make good quality equipment. The focus on the spec sheet only at the cost of quality has been a smart move for them.


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## jedy (Dec 8, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> Not sure what is nonsense about it. SONY shooters are constantly telling us why they chose sony. Usually because sony have the DR that produces amazing images when crippled canon cant. Or that sonys 4k is the one and only thing that matters in the world. They clearly think these features will make them good whereas if they had a canon they would be failures. And i am not sure how i am bitter about that. I applaud Sony for milking that cash cow with what have (untill the a7r4) been sub par offerings. And the lack of appreciation of ergonomics by people who go from phones to FF is understandable so sony took 10 years to care about it because they didnt have to. Again. I applaud sony for being successful without the need to make good quality equipment. The focus on the spec sheet only at the cost of quality has been a smart move for them.


Don’t get caught up in fanboyism. Fanboys exist for all camera companies (plenty of Canon fanboys) and don’t represent the bulk of camera users.They tend to be more vocal online too and you could question how much photography they actually do.


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## Aussie shooter (Dec 8, 2019)

jedy said:


> Don’t get caught up in fanboyism. Fanboys exist for all camera companies (plenty of Canon fanboys) and don’t represent the bulk of camera users.They tend to be more vocal online too and you could question how much photography they actually do.


I think we all question the amount of actual photography done by the most vocal.


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## Quirkz (Dec 8, 2019)

Sporgon said:


> Just to be picky; The Good, The Bad & The Ugly was shot last but in the time line of the Trilogy it's the first. We see where Blonde gets his poncho and it's set in the American Civil war when Clint is using a percussion revolver converted to use metallic cartridges. In the other two he's using the Colt SAA introduced in 1873.
> 
> Great films and great musical scores.
> 
> Yes I got the reference and i don't think it's cause for anyone to get on their high horse with or without a Peacemaker



You just blew my mind. I had no idea.


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## Bahrd (Dec 8, 2019)

MadScotsman said:


> [...]
> “Alexa, set my aperature to F2.8”
> “Alexa, set my shutter speed to 150”
> 
> Or I’m switching to SONY!



You'll have to right after mentioning Alexa anyway... Messing around with Alexa and being in a relationship with Eos isn't a smart move!


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## Quirkz (Dec 8, 2019)

AlanF said:


> A Fistful of Dollars is a knock-off of Yojimbo by the iconic Japanese director Akira Kurosawa, who also directed the Seven Samurai, which was knocked off by the Magnificent Seven. Actually, the westerns are really good and as enjoyable as the original Japanese. But, the original Kurosawa are works of genius.


I own the both on blu ray. Watching them one after another is a revelation. Entire scenes are reproduced. Fortunately, Sergio Leone gave full credit to the originals - he didn’t try hide where the inspiration came from. 

Jojimbo is fascinating, as it was inspired by American westerns. Beautiful cycle.


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## Kit. (Dec 8, 2019)

Isaacheus said:


> Ah, looking on the wikipedia page, it has a comment how Minolta wasn't able to compete well against the 'Big Two of Canon and Nikon', so I thought the duopoly had been around for some time. It may have just been referring to the change to digital however?


I have no actual data about the causes of Minolta's decline, but Minolta could never establish itself as a camera system for pros, although they had a huge following of enthusiasts. Minolta was also over-investing (or at least so I thought) into the APS film fad.


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## Del Paso (Dec 8, 2019)

Kit. said:


> I have no actual data about the causes of Minolta's decline, but Minolta could never establish itself as a camera system for pros, although they had a huge following of enthusiasts. Minolta was also over-investing (or at least so I thought) into the APS film fad.



Couldn't it be that subjective (emotional) reasons also played a part in Minolta's decline, just like Miranda's ?
It has often been said that Miranda didn't sound "manly" enough, like Minolta. Canon and Nikon seem to have better names. Of course, the Minolta XM/XK came a little late, and was far from being perfect...and no match for the F 2.
PS: I was for a very long time an enthusiastic Minolta user, until Nikon ads convinced silly me that a serious photographer had to buy a real tool...
And then came Canon...


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## snoke (Dec 8, 2019)

So many MP make sharp picture hard using hands.

Old rule, shutter 1/mm. Film rule.

75MP digital have more detail. Need new rule.

1/3*mm?


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## dtaylor (Dec 8, 2019)

AlanF said:


> For those who like measurements and are interested in sensor resolution and how it is affected by f-number and AA-filter, here is a graph from https://www.optyczne.pl/324.4-Test_aparatu-Canon_EOS_5Ds_Rozdzielczość.html



And for those who are interested in how numbers map to real world images: one is 5DsR, one is 5Ds, one is 5Ds with very light sharpening. And I would bet good money that multiple scenes printed 48" and shuffled would leave anyone scratching their head as to which was which or if there was even more than one camera involved.

To each his own, but I decided a badge wasn't worth a couple extra hundred dollars.


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## dtaylor (Dec 8, 2019)

snoke said:


> So many MP make sharp picture hard using hands.
> 
> Old rule, shutter 1/mm. Film rule.
> 
> ...



My gut says 1/2*mm will be enough (absent any form of IS which would improve the situation). Anyone with a 90D or M6.2 could test this since the pixel density would be similar.


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## Joules (Dec 8, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> To each his own, but I decided a badge wasn't worth a couple extra hundred dollars.
> 
> View attachment 187752


I think your images are very much appreciated, but to make them more meaningful you should share the settings they were taken with. Especially aperture, since if these are taken at a DLA, it might be misleading to use these as demonstration.

Also, an image of something natural with a lot of detail, like a leaf or a bird feather may help more to show the difference, since printed text could also be limited by the printer's ability to produce detail.


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## Don Haines (Dec 8, 2019)

Quirkz said:


> I own the both on blu ray. Watching them one after another is a revelation. Entire scenes are reproduced. Fortunately, Sergio Leone gave full credit to the originals - he didn’t try hide where the inspiration came from.
> 
> Jojimbo is fascinating, as it was inspired by American westerns. Beautiful cycle.


Now you need to watch “the great escape”, followed by “chicken run”


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## Quarkcharmed (Dec 8, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> My gut says 1/2*mm will be enough (absent any form of IS which would improve the situation). Anyone with a 90D or M6.2 could test this since the pixel density would be similar.


I can only use my phone atm but the first image seems to be the least sharp. #2 and #3 are almost the same in terms of the apparent sharpness, but this comparison is meaningless. Why wouldn't you also sharpen the 5DSr one? It would appear even sharper. If you're trying to prove that 5DS can catch up 5DSr by applying sharpening - no, the proof doesn't hold, because we can also apply the same amount of sharpening to 5DSr. You'll never catch up by using digital sharpening.


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## Ozarker (Dec 8, 2019)

jedy said:


> Don’t get caught up in fanboyism. Fanboys exist for all camera companies (plenty of Canon fanboys) and don’t represent the bulk of camera users.They tend to be more vocal online too and you could question how much photography they actually do.


I'm a fanboy, and I do plenty of shooting.


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## Sporgon (Dec 8, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I can only use my phone atm but the first image seems to be the least sharp. #2 and #3 are almost the same in terms of the apparent sharpness, but this comparison is meaningless. Why wouldn't you also sharpen the 5DSr one? It would appear even sharper. If you're trying to prove that 5DS can catch up 5DSr by applying sharpening - no, the proof doesn't hold, because we can also apply the same amount of sharpening to 5DSr. You'll never catch up by using digital sharpening.



I guess dtaylor is demonstrating resolution, not sharpness.


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## Sporgon (Dec 8, 2019)

AlanF said:


> You are equating contrast and sharpening with resolution, but they are different



No I'm not. I have found there is no difference in what is resolved, only contrast and sharpness when comparing the un-sharpened 5Ds against the 5Dsr. In fact I think somewhere in Canon's original advertising of the 5Dsr it specifically states _sharper images. _Which is true - until you sharpen the 5Ds.


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## AlanF (Dec 8, 2019)

Sporgon said:


> No I'm not. I have found there is no difference in what is resolved, only contrast and sharpness when comparing the un-sharpened 5Ds against the 5Dsr. In fact I think somewhere in Canon's original advertising of the 5Dsr it specifically states _sharper images. _Which is true - until you sharpen the 5Ds.


This is what Canon actually wrote for the 5DS vs 5DSR:





Canon Product Showcases | Canon U.S.A., Inc.


The Product Showcases from Canon U.S.A., Inc. Explore the Canon products further and discover why these are worthy of your attention.




www.usa.canon.com




_"The EOS 5DS R camera's LPF cancellation effect delivers greater sharpness and finer detail, useful in specialized situations" ..... "The EOS 5DS R is a specialized version that is intended for photographers looking to capture the maximum amount of detail possible"_
So Canon claims and illustrates that the 5DSR has better sharpness and detail (= resolution), in contrast to what you find.


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## Sporgon (Dec 8, 2019)

AlanF said:


> This is what Canon actually wrote for the 5DS vs 5DSR:
> 
> _"The EOS 5DS R camera's LPF cancellation effect delivers greater sharpness and finer detail, useful in specialized situations" ..... "The EOS 5DS R is a specialized version that is intended for photographers looking to capture the maximum amount of detail possible"_


Spot on - assuming both files are processed the same.


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## stevelee (Dec 8, 2019)

wojtek said:


> well... I spent 4 grand on imac and same on laptop and I wish they were quicker... once you have such big files opened, not only ram plays part but the graphic card. switching between couple of pictures is a lot of juggling in terms of computer memory, it slows everything down. if you buy a new mac, do not save on the graphic card, go for the quickest that's available. those are the real problems if you want to have some life after a busy work


My 5K iMac is over four years old. I ordered it with the best graphics card and processor at the time, and I maxed out memory and the SSD. Nothing I’ve tried slows it down, including editing 4K video in FCP X. The only thing I wait for is when Compressor renders a batch of video.


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## MadScotsman (Dec 8, 2019)

stevelee said:


> My 5K iMac is over four years old. I ordered it with the best graphics card and processor at the time, and I maxed out memory and the SSD. Nothing I’ve tried slows it down, including editing 4K video in FCP X. The only thing I wait for is when Compressor renders a batch of video.



True. Mine is 4 years old, and isn’t struggling one bit. 

I’m really bad about having G.A.S. (Gear Acquisition System). And I keep looking at the new iMacs and specs then I feel silly because... well... mine is just fine. Absolutely NO way I can justify the expense.


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## Quarkcharmed (Dec 8, 2019)

Sporgon said:


> I guess dtaylor is demonstrating resolution, not sharpness.


He's demonstrating resolution by tweaking the sharpness slider on 5DS and not tweaking it on 5DSr?


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## Sporgon (Dec 8, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> He's demonstrating resolution by tweaking the sharpness slider on 5DS and not tweaking it on 5DSr?


I can't speak for dtaylor, but I guess he's using a tiny amount of USM to clear the slight veiling effect of the AA filter on the 5Ds which then reveals exactly the same detail resolved as on the 5Dsr. I believe that even Canon themselves never claimed that the 5Dsr _resolved _ more detail than the 5Ds.


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## Quarkcharmed (Dec 8, 2019)

Sporgon said:


> I can't speak for dtaylor, but I guess he's using a tiny amount of USM to clear the slight veiling effect of the AA filter on the 5Ds which then reveals exactly the same detail resolved as on the 5Dsr.



And it's a fallacy, and I explained why in my previous messages.


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## AlanF (Dec 8, 2019)

Sporgon said:


> I can't speak for dtaylor, but I guess he's using a tiny amount of USM to clear the slight veiling effect of the AA filter on the 5Ds which then reveals exactly the same detail resolved as on the 5Dsr. I believe that even Canon themselves never claimed that the 5Dsr _resolved _ more detail than the 5Ds.


Please read my post to which you had replied: https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...s-and-lenses/high-resolution-eos-5ds-vs-5dsr/ where Canon claims in words and uses an image that the 5DSR shows more detail. If you argue that they didn't actually use the word "resolve" read this from


https://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/product/cameras/eos_5ds_r.dor




* The EOS 5DS R is the sister model to the EOS 5DS and together both cameras represent Canon’s new breed of high-resolution DSLRs. The EOS 5DS R offers studio photographers, in particular, the most detail ever from its incredible 50.6 Megapixel high-resolution sensor, thanks to the inclusion of a low-pass cancellation filter that allows for maximum resolution from the sensor. *


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## stevelee (Dec 9, 2019)

MadScotsman said:


> True. Mine is 4 years old, and isn’t struggling one bit.
> 
> I’m really bad about having G.A.S. (Gear Acquisition System). And I keep looking at the new iMacs and specs then I feel silly because... well... mine is just fine. Absolutely NO way I can justify the expense.


GAS doesn't come into play for me at all in terms of my computer right now. I'm happy with my camera equipment. I took really good pictures with the G5X II on my recent travels. It is new enough that I haven't figured everything out, even though I had been using a G7X II for years. When I reach for me DSLR, I have no occasion to wish for a lens I don't have. When the weather is more pleasant, I plan to rent a TS lens to play with, probably the 24mm. My fear is that I will want to keep it, and send money instead of sending it back.

I need to put tires on my car before I get it inspected. But I wonder whether I should just buy a new car, since it will have new tires already. I fear that I might buy the tires and then a couple months later decide I want a car. So that is my major GAS issue right now. And really about the only thing I want a new car for is the backup screen, and maybe some other safety stuff, which I think will be more important as I get older. If it is decent out tomorrow, I may look at cars.

And Photoshop does such a great job with correcting perspective that I don't feel a need for a TS lens for the kind of shooting I do. But it would be fun to play with, so maybe a week is really all I need one for. I could treat it like a "staycation" and plan out photo agenda before the lens arrives.


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## Lenscracker (Dec 9, 2019)

Fran Decatta said:


> I hope they let down the resolution. 75mpx raws will be heavy as hell and, as a wedding photographer, Im more than happy with the 30 mpx that gives the eos R actually
> 
> (I add this due I didn't explain well myself in that original message):
> 
> ...


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## wickedac (Dec 9, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> My gut says 1/2*mm will be enough (absent any form of IS which would improve the situation). *Anyone with a 90D or M6.2 could test this since the pixel density would be similar.*



I've seen this mentioned a few times but the camera shake issue has nothing to do with pixel density. It's the increase in resolution.

A given field of view (say 85mm on APS-C or 135mm on a full frame) has a given number of pixels stretching across it. If you change from being 6,000 pixels wide to being 10,000 pixels wide there's a lot more detail within that frame needing resolving, nearly double. If you have just slight enough movement the 10,000 pixel image may resolve similarly as the 6,000 pixel image due to motion blur on the fine detail. The reason for the focal-length rule for camera shake in the first place is that the narrower a field of view. the finer (in absolute terms) the detail being resolved is.

Imagine using an 18MP 1DX to make a four shot Brenizer image using a 70mm lens, which will have a somewhat similar field of view to 35mm when stitched. That's basically what you're doing with a 75mp camera using a 35mm lens. You'd need the same hand-held shutter speed that you'd use with a 70mm lens on the 1DX, which for me is probably going to be somewhere around at leaast 1/125 or 1/160 if there's no IS.

Conversely, consider the pixel density on a phone sensor. It's FAR smaller pixels than a 90D. And I know a lot of phones have IS but many don't, or didn't until recently. And that still does nothing to freeze subject motion.


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## ohm (Dec 9, 2019)

MadScotsman said:


> True. Mine is 4 years old, and isn’t struggling one bit.
> 
> I’m really bad about having G.A.S. (Gear Acquisition System). And I keep looking at the new iMacs and specs then I feel silly because... well... mine is just fine. Absolutely NO way I can justify the expense.



I use an iMac Pro, and even it (base 8 core with upgraded 64G ram and 16GB VRAM) slows down madly under PS and LR. I know this is a hardware issue, because it runs through Helicon focus like the Dickens. My previous iMac from 2012 with an nVidia card was far faster at real time transformations and rotation in PS. If and when Adobe get their AMD legs fixed, the Mac will be a powerful platform. As it is, the older cards are better for regular LR and PS use.


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## Architect1776 (Dec 9, 2019)

Isaacheus said:


> The new RF glass looks really nice, so it seems canon are on to a good thing here. My point is that I don't think canon will dominate the market as easily as they did with EF - Sony has had a good chance to establish, and they have kept releasing good lenses and new bodies themselves while canon have brought out the RF mount (I wasn't around when EF came out, but it sounds like Nikon waited for a lot longer to do anything about the market shift?)
> 
> You make my point exactly regarding the EF mount of over 30 years ago. I got beat up regularly in recent years by Nikon owners about Canon and the FD mount being abandoned. I pointed out that no one under 40-45 even knows what an FD mount is. With the Z mount Nikon finally joined the 21st century but over 30 years late. Canon with their vision created a mount good for 30 years then because it was electronic were able to make the RF mount 100% compatible with the EF mount which is great and amazing.This allows all legacy canon EF users to seamlessly transition, if desired, to the RF with no loss of lenses or features in the existing optics they own. Even Sony cannot make that claim as they moved from Minolta to all Sony. perhaps no an earthquake as the EF because the EF destroyed Nikon and now with Canon having the pro market and on top it is hard to make the same type of shift as they are there already. Their hope is to maintain dominance as they have and it looks like they will because they have the depth of lenses and services still lacking by Sony and to some extent Nikon.
> One never knows though so these thoughts could be shattered tomorrow but for now I believe they are sound.


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## cayenne (Dec 10, 2019)

stevelee said:


> My 5K iMac is over four years old. I ordered it with the best graphics card and processor at the time, and I maxed out memory and the SSD. Nothing I’ve tried slows it down, including editing 4K video in FCP X. The only thing I wait for is when Compressor renders a batch of video.




OOh....I think the new Mac Pro is supposed to be released for orders today....


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## StoicalEtcher (Dec 10, 2019)

cayenne said:


> OOh....I think the new Mac Pro is supposed to be released for orders today....


Still "Coming this Autumn" on the UK website  with the option to register for a notification. 

Been like this for lots of months now! Apparently having issues with getting components from China....

Maybe it will change tomorrow.


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## tron (Dec 10, 2019)

StoicalEtcher said:


> Still "Coming this Autumn" on the UK website  with the option to register for a notification.
> 
> Been like this for lots of months now! Apparently having issues with getting components from China....
> 
> Maybe it will change tomorrow.


Chear up! In 12 days it will be officially Winter so they will be ... liars 

EDIT: Of course when January comes it will be a new year and "coming this Autumn" could very well mean Autumn 2020!


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## dsut4392 (Dec 11, 2019)

raptor3x said:


> This isn't correct. The majority of IBIS systems move on a series of surface bearings which provide a fair amount of heat transfer surface. It seems like many people think that an IBIS sensor is somehow floating in space suspended by magnets or something which is not true. IBIS is really not a big deal for heat transfer, just look at how the Sony 6300, which has no IBIS, has worse overheating characteristics than the A6500, which does have IBIS.



Bearings are optimised to minimise friction not heat transfer. I don't know what kind of bearings are used in IBIS systems, but in a theoretically perfect roller bearing (needle or ball type) the surface area in contact approaches zero. Bushings I have seen for low load applications often have a bearing surface of teflon which is a fairly good insulator.

Whether or not IBIS is a big deal for heat transfer really depends on the thermal efficiency of a given sensor - if the sensor is efficient enough, even poor heat transfer may be adequate. And it's quite possible that overheating issues of some cameras have nothing to do with the sensor assembly but may instead be a separate chip. In engineering, every design decision is a compromise.


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## Aussie shooter (Dec 11, 2019)

cayenne said:


> OOh....I think the new Mac Pro is supposed to be released for orders today....


I saw something on the interwbnet today that said if you got the absolute top of the line with everything available it would set you back around 50k(aus I think) or a bit more. and the base model(which will be good to use as a stable table is about 6k


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## djack41 (Dec 11, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


75 MP needs IBIS!


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## StoicalEtcher (Dec 11, 2019)

tron said:


> Chear up! In 12 days it will be officially Winter so they will be ... liars
> 
> EDIT: Of course when January comes it will be a new year and "coming this Autumn" could very well mean Autumn 2020!


They must have heard you - and/or cayenne has good sources, because sure enough the Mac Pro is finally available today (11 Dec '19) in the UK.

Now begins the decision process regarding specs - but I already know for sure that I just have to ensure I get the wheels on the bottom for a mere extra £360 on the price (NOT!!).


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## tron (Dec 11, 2019)

Nice hardware this new Mac Pro. I guess it will be dirty cheap by the year 2525


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## Cryhavoc (Dec 11, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Just looking at my R, I don't think adding an extra card slot would make a lot of difference -- assuming it is a second SD slot.



exactly, there is plenty of room to add a second card slot in the current R body design. I have an EM1-mkII and its even smaller than the R and has dual slots


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## Cryhavoc (Dec 11, 2019)

tron said:


> Nice hardware this new Mac Pro. I guess it will be dirty cheap by the year 2525



saw the pricing of the Mac Pro and that 32" monitor. Apple is sure proud of their hardware, and how in the heck does a monitor stand retail for $999?


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## cayenne (Dec 11, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> I saw something on the interwbnet today that said if you got the absolute top of the line with everything available it would set you back around 50k(aus I think) or a bit more. and the base model(which will be good to use as a stable table is about 6k



I played with the specs and got to around $7100 

However, I"m held up from buying due to the lack of the Radeon Pro W5700X with 16GB of GDDR6 memory as an option.

They say it is coming soon....not sure what the hold up was, they've touted this as a choice from the beginning.

I was counting on this option being powerful enough for me to start with and likely about $1K above the base GPU offering.


I was prepared to pull the trigger on about an $8K MP.....and was hoping to buy before end of year so as to write it all off on taxes.

I'll keep looking to see if they put that up as a choice before Dec 31st.

Going with that next higher video card pushes my configuration to just over $9K which is more than I had planned to spend initially.

I did notice that they have a special till end of the year that if you use the Apple Card you get 6% off, which would cut the expense with the higher graphics card to about $8550.

I might can go for that.

I discovered about $400 cash back on a card the other day, that I used to offset my new film camera purchase recently, I need to dig around and see how much cash back is sitting on my Apple card and other CC's...that might help justify going a little higher than planned.

But overall, my guess on price was about right.

And my old Macbook Pro is really needing replacement, I just bog it down WAY too often lately with video and images I'm working on.


I'm looking to go for:

12 core CPU

32G RAM 

One of the Graphics cards

1 TB SSD storage

And although I already have FCPX, I'm going to get the extra $199 bundle for education so I can get a copy of Logic Pro X, and the other tools to play with too.


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## tron (Dec 11, 2019)

I just got a Lenovo Legion Y540 with i7 six core gen 9 16gb ram, nvidia gtx1660ti ssd is only 256 but it has a 2tb hdd. I may upgrade these immediately or maybe when they are not enough. I am not a Pro so this baby at 1.3K euros will do just fine.


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## StoicalEtcher (Dec 11, 2019)

cayenne said:


> I played with the specs and got to around $7100
> 
> However, I"m held up from buying due to the lack of the Radeon Pro W5700X with 16GB of GDDR6 memory as an option.
> 
> ...


Cayenne,

I seem to be in a similar boat to you - other than sticking with 8 core and instead going for the 48gb ram (probably going to go 2TB for storage).

Having said that, I'm a photographer rather than a IT specialist, so I'm interested in whether you reckon swapping ram for number of cores is a better option or not? What is driving your thoughts here? (I don't do video, other than some personal family stuff - kids birthdays etc - so video handling is not a requirement for me).

Thanks. Stoical.


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## Aussie shooter (Dec 11, 2019)

It's so funny reading all the stuff written by the teck heads(coming from a computer illiterate that gets confused with more then three cables and two other options). I love being reminded of how little I know


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## cayenne (Dec 11, 2019)

StoicalEtcher said:


> Cayenne,
> 
> I seem to be in a similar boat to you - other than sticking with 8 core and instead going for the 48gb ram (probably going to go 2TB for storage).
> 
> ...




Well, my thoughts are, RAM will be easily replaced or added to, etc....and likely can be had for a good bit of discount 3rd party than by Apple BTO (Build To Order).

While you can swap out your CPU.....I'm going to go with the best I can afford at BTO, but will add more RAM almost immediately after I get the computer, likely from Crucial ....like I've done in the past with my MBP.

You can get more bang for buck doing RAM additions / replacement after purchase than you likely can with trying to later upgrade your CPU. CPUs cost a bunch more than RAM and what do you do with our old CPU you're replacing?

And I figure 1TB for a system HD is plenty (the SSD). I mean, I don't store that much on it that is NOT system required stuff. Applications and system stuff.

But right now, I have a couple (soon to be more) external thunderbolt drives. I have one that is a SSD external that is dedicated as cache only to the applications that need it.

My other external drive, is where I keep my media....pics, video, etc.. So while I'm editing, I cut down disk I/O...the system and applications work on the internal HD, the media is worked on its own drive and cache values have their own drive.

At least that's how I see it.

HTH,

cayenne


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## StoicalEtcher (Dec 11, 2019)

cayenne said:


> Well, my thoughts are, RAM will be easily replaced or added to, etc....and likely can be had for a good bit of discount 3rd party than by Apple BTO (Build To Order).
> 
> While you can swap out your CPU.....I'm going to go with the best I can afford at BTO, but will add more RAM almost immediately after I get the computer, likely from Crucial ....like I've done in the past with my MBP.
> 
> ...


Cayenne,

Many thanks for taking the time to respond.

I see where you are coming from -good food for thought. (I like to try to have my own thoughts in order, before then trying to persuade my IT guy that I know what I want. I do then take their advice of course  ).

Anyway - sorry to everyone else for going well off the reservation.

Stoical.


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## Michael Clark (Dec 12, 2019)

kforrestry said:


> unless the DR can compete with sonys from 5 years ago, i dont see myself coming back to canon. as a landscape photographer, i've been waiting for two years now for them to show me the money and produce something worth coming back for. their lens line is clearly superior, but they've shown year after year now that they can't keep up with sony in the DR department. i couldn't care less about FPS, IBIS, ergonomics, and video, just give me great image quality that can compete with sony.



Is it really that much effort to capitalize the first letter of each sentence? Unless you learn to do that, I don't see myself reading any more of your comments.


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## tron (Dec 12, 2019)

JWest said:


> I am SO EXCITED about this!
> 
> Anyone complaining about this EOS Rs must be either non-pro or just like to troll. If all it does more than my 5dsr is more MP and more dynamic range, then it's 100% worth it for me. I couldn't care less about IBIS for a camera that will do all it's commercial work from a tripod.
> 
> ...


Interesting post in the sense that I agree with some things and disagree with others.

Agrees:
It is silly for someone to complain about Rs since it is an imaginary camera. Of course EOS Rs will be a very capable camera. Also Canon cameras have the tedency to prove in practice much better than in specs. I have 1x5DMkIV 2x5DsR 1x7DMMkII and I like all of them (although for different reasons!). Recently I also got the EOS R with the mind in their 2 out of 3 2.8 zooms for next year. So no mirrorless hater here (Important to keep this in mind when reading the disagreements).
I also have TS-E 17 and it put to no use my TS-E24! Very versatile!

Neutral:
IBIS: it may range from useless to very useful depending on camera use: Not all use it on tripod (but I understand your point regarding commercial work of course). But when you shoot handheld at low light due to restrictions it has to be very useful.

Disagrees
Regarding: "If all it does more MP and more dynamic range ... etc" does not make it a superset of 5DsR
It fails to be a birding camera and it fails to be a camera that does not need many batteries per day.
On these two things EOS Rs will leave a lot to be desired.

I guess there are many different uses/needs and there is no camera to rule them all!

EDIT: Neither Pro but not complaining either by the way!


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## Michael Clark (Dec 12, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> In a diffraction limited lens, yes. In an aberration limited lens you certainly can gain both resolution and sharpness by stopping down. I'm not sure if there are any diffraction limited lenses in 35mm format. Every one I can think of has an optimal aperture stopped down from wide open, even if just 1 stop. I know there are a few in MF.



Roger Cicala, who tests lenses for MTF rigorously, has noted more than a few lenses that are just as sharp wide open as they are stopped down by one stop. Most are long focal length 'Super Telephoto' lenses.


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## Michael Clark (Dec 12, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Why? Minolta was one of The Big Three (SLR camera manufacturers) and had the most feature-rich cameras. Technology-wise, Canon was a follower.



Until they developed USM lenses. That, combined with the all electronic camera-lens communication and control interface, is what put them at #1.


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## Cryhavoc (Dec 13, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Is it really that much effort to capitalize the first letter of each sentence? Unless you learn to do that, I don't see myself reading any more of your comments.



Is it really that much effort, on your part, to just ignore the lack of capitalization and read the content for what it is?


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## Kit. (Dec 13, 2019)

Cryhavoc said:


> Is it really that much effort, on your part, to just ignore the lack of capitalization and read the content for what it is?


Not sure about Michael, but I have better ways of spending my time than reading everything on these forums.

If people don't care about making their posts readable, they should not expect me to care about (or even know) their opinions.


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## koenkooi (Dec 14, 2019)

Cryhavoc said:


> Is it really that much effort, on your part, to just ignore the lack of capitalization and read the content for what it is?



The lack of interpunction is a bigger problem for than the lack of caps. But still, if someone can't bother with making things readable, why should we bother to invest the extra effort into reading it?


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## stevelee (Dec 14, 2019)

imnotsurewhyimreadingthisthreadanywaysinceihavenointerestinbuyingthecamera


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## The Fat Fish (Dec 21, 2019)

It must at least match the specs and pricing of the 2017 A7RIII. High resolution, high dynamic range, IBIS, dual card slots, full frame 4K, over-sampled Super-35 4K, great battery life and fast FPS.


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## Ozarker (Dec 21, 2019)

The Fat Fish said:


> It must at least match the specs and pricing of the 2017 A7RIII. High resolution, high dynamic range, IBIS, dual card slots, full frame 4K, over-sampled Super-35 4K, great battery life and fast FPS.


Funny guy. The 1DX Mark II is already faster than the A7RIII and a year older. It's also much more fun to hold. Already has dual card slots. etc. When I close my eyes and hold a 1DX Mark II I am reminded of the soft warm hands of my first teen girlfriend. When I close my eyes and hold an A7RIII I'm reminded of granny's brittle and cold paws. If the Sony could at least come close color wise, that would be nice. It doesn't.


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## stevelee (Dec 21, 2019)

Granny loved you a lot longer.


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## Ozarker (Dec 22, 2019)

stevelee said:


> Granny loved you a lot longer.


Not really. Married my first teen girlfriend 37 years ago when we were 18.


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## VICYASA (Dec 22, 2019)

With those potential specs, what would pricing be more or less? Can anyone, based on knowledge speculate on this.
Thanks in advance...


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## Ozarker (Dec 22, 2019)

VICYASA said:


> With those potential specs, what would pricing be more or less? Can anyone, based on knowledge speculate on this.
> Thanks in advance...


My speculative knowledge (Magic 8 Ball from 1972) tells me $3,499.95.


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## SecureGSM (Dec 26, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> My speculative knowledge (Magic 8 Ball from 1972) tells me $3,499.95.


considering current market conditions and commercial wars for market domination between C and S, a7R IV being priced $3,499.00. etc. 
Canon may consider bringing the Rs to market at a little bit better than that price. not by much, but...


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