# What will Canon bring to the table with the EOS R1?



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 27, 2021)

> Yesterday Sony set the gear world ablaze with the Sony Alpha a1, their new flagship full-frame mirrorless camera. It boasts a ton of pretty great features that most of you already know about. In particular, I love the EVF on paper, the 1/400 flash sync and the autofocus looks tremendous.
> So what could Canon potentially bring to the table with their upcoming flagship mirrorless camera, which I call the EOS R1? The rumors for this camera have been minimal, with only very broad strokes about what we can expect.
> 
> One area I think Sony should have changed with the Alpha a1 is the form factor and ergonomics of the camera. If you have ever used a flagship DSLR like the Canon EOS-1D X Mark III or Nikon D6, you can have a hard time going back to other cameras, this is especially true with the EOS-1D series of cameras.
> I...



Continue reading...


----------



## xwxw (Jan 27, 2021)

Exciting! I am glad this actually gives them time to work out all the details which would result of a more fine-tuned product in the end. Hope R1 will solve some of R5's pains in that it will have a bigger body, but given the weathering sealing, one might not expect magic when it comes to heat dissipation.


----------



## dolina (Jan 27, 2021)

R1 will exceed the tech specs of A1 and be in stock at BH within 12 months.

Canon will offer a (free?) program to modify Series III EF 400mm and 600mm lens to RF mount.


----------



## Chaitanya (Jan 27, 2021)

Given that motorsports seasons are going to start(WRC has already started and both F1 and MotoGP are expected to have longer seasons than normal) and high probability of Olympics being cancelled(as mentioned before) even if Canon announces R1 I expect to see it being used to cover motorsports season.


----------



## H. Jones (Jan 27, 2021)

The only reason the A1 made me happy is that I think it definitely speeds up the timeline on the R1, no matter if it's a rough year for sports. 

I'll admit, I would be slightly disappointed if the R1 is higher than 40 megapixels. I already have 45 megapixels on my R5, so I would far prefer 60-120 FPS still photographs at 30 megapixels than 30 FPS stills at 50 megapixels. That said, if the market is truly changing so drastically in this way(24 megapixels has not caused any issue on the 1D or A9), I guess I would appreciate both of my cameras being similar in resolution like the 5D3 and 1DX2 were.


The R1 seriously can't come fast enough. I'm ready to sell all of my EF glass and EF bodies to complete the switch the moment the pre-orders go live. My R5 has been simply incredible and somehow makes my 1DX2 feel like a dinosaur.


----------



## Maps (Jan 27, 2021)

Prediction: The R1 will only be released this year if they actually go forward with the Olympics.


----------



## Joules (Jan 27, 2021)

Maps said:


> Prediction: The R1 will only be released this year if they actually go forward with the Olympics.


I doubt that is such a tight dependency. It makes no sense to sit on a developed product that is ready for mass production. What would that gain you?

We've seen numerous products launch as soon as possible despite not being able to meet the demand (all types of PC hardware, for example), for example. If Canon was behind schedule with development of the R1, a cancellation of the Olympics may take off some of the pressure, sure. But I would fully expect them to start production and shipping as soon as they are ready. Especially since production will likely see similar shortages as all other electronics devices for the early periods, and so a longer production run ahead of the sports world reopening would seem highly desireable to me.


----------



## dwarven (Jan 27, 2021)

Whatever specs it has it will probably be more than capable. I'd like to see backlit buttons even though I'd probably never be able to afford the camera


----------



## Nigel95 (Jan 27, 2021)

What will Canon bring to the table with the R7?


----------



## BeenThere (Jan 27, 2021)

More time will allow Canon to achieve higher production yields on the sensor and perhaps a higher generation processor.


----------



## Maps (Jan 27, 2021)

Joules said:


> I doubt that is such a tight dependency. It makes no sense to sit on a developed product that is ready for mass production. What would that gain you?
> 
> We've seen numerous products launch as soon as possible despite not being able to meet the demand (all types of PC hardware, for example), for example. If Canon was behind schedule with development of the R1, a cancellation of the Olympics may take off some of the pressure, sure. But I would fully expect them to start production and shipping as soon as they are ready. Especially since production will likely see similar shortages as all other electronics devices for the early periods, and so a longer production run ahead of the sports world reopening would seem highly desireable to me.



I just figure if the component shortages are as bad as some have suggested, they’d rather just focus on moving as many R5/6s as possible as opposed to adding another model into the mix. A lot of people here will be excited about the R1, but in the broader scheme of things, it will be a pretty niche product. That said, all of your points are perfectly valid.


----------



## bergstrom (Jan 27, 2021)

how theyre making the sony a1 without flip screen is stupid.


----------



## bbasiaga (Jan 27, 2021)

I actually think the big controversy will be price. With Sony coming in right around the 1DXIII, Canon could get a lot of negative press when the R1 drops at 7-8kusd. I bet they were planning to go up the price bracket with it, and to somewhat protect the 1DXIII which is still only at the beginning of its lifecycle as well as to get a premium for their new technology. 

We will see though. This is just me guessing. 

-Brian


----------



## LSXPhotog (Jan 27, 2021)

So I can tell you right now, as much as I want a massive resolution increase over the current 1DXIII, it will prevent many photographers from buying it. Unless Canon comes out with a better alternative to cRAW and allows us to shoot in smaller, more preferred resolutions, I and many others will struggle to justify making this our $6,000+ camera in the bag.

Why?

I was one of the first photographers in "my little slice" of the publishing industry that bought the R5. Several friends waited for my results before they pulled the trigger themselves and many of them shared my same criticism - 'I don't need 45mp to cover a race/event/wedding/real estate, etc.' I was quick to identify this and purchased the R6 to partner with my R5. Weddings in particular don't benefit from 45mp, it's more of a burden than anything else. At least in motorsports photography I can use that resolution for additional flexibility for cropping, in print or advertisement...but there is zero value in a 8192 x 5464 pixel dancefloor shot or cake cutting, so I lean on the R6 after the portrait session has concluded.

This is something many of us identify as a shortcoming of the R5 and it's rather upsetting. I hope that Canon reconsiders the importance of cRAW and can bring back an mRAW format that keeps things in the 12-15 and 20-26mp sweet spots. The argument of always shooting at the maximum resolution isn't exactly true for all of us. When I cover events I can shoot thousands of images a day for 3-4 days at a time and have to turn those around same day...and I still want the benefits of RAW, just not the resolution or file size. Yes, cRAW is roughly the size of a standard 20mp RAW out of the R6, but those images do NOT process easily in software like 20mp, as it chugs along to read the 45mp file format, versus blazing through a normal CR2/CR3 RAW...not sure why, but please give us back smaller RAW.


----------



## john1970 (Jan 27, 2021)

Personally, I would like to see the following features: 1) quad-pixel AF; 2) Integrated Vertical Grip; 3) 30-40 MP sensor with excellent high ISO quality; 4) top fps of 25 fps with no drop in bit depth; 5) an electronic shutter with adjustable speed so one can go silent at lower speeds; 6) Spot metering linked to focus point; 7) global shutter to remove rolling shutter; 8) two type B CFExpress slots, 9) Rugged construction and weather sealing similar to 1D series.


----------



## VICYASA (Jan 27, 2021)

Blah blah blah...


----------



## marathonman (Jan 27, 2021)

No Direct Print button = Canon *******.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 27, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...




AND please ALSO NOTE Fuji's introduction of the GFX-100s camera for $5999 USD which offers a full 100 megapixel MF sensor!

See review:








The GFX100S – a smaller, yet still powerful sibling of the flagship GFX100 - Medium Format


Introduction and Q&A with a photographer who actually shot with the camera. Fujifilm has just announced its fourth medium format camera, the GFX100S, a smaller, yet still powerful sibling of the flagship GFX100 and the GFX50S. Even though it houses the same 102MP, back-illuminated medium format...



mediumformat.com





Comparing the Sony A1 to the Canon R5 and the Fuji GFX-100s, I feel soooooo sorry for Sony that showed an UNDERWHELMING CAMERA when compared to the $3899 proper DCI-8K Hollywood Cinema/Netflix/Amazon/Apple-play production friendly 8129 x 4320 pixel Canon R5 camera and the 100 megapixel Medium Format Fuji GFX-100 for $5999 US.

The ONLY THING that gets me going for the $6498 USD Sony A1 is the 30 fps Burst Rate at the full 3:2 still photo size image frame and the 120 fps 4K video!

---

For the Best-Bang-For-The-Buck race, the winner is the Canon R5 for being $2590 cheaper than the Sony A1 and having full DCI 8K Hollywood Cinema production friendly video capture.

For the megapixel and light sensitivity race, the Fuji GFX 100s with 100 megapixels for $5999 WINS HANDS DOWN!

For compactness and toughness, the it's-a-steal for $349 GoPro Hero-8 Black with 60 fps 4K and 240 fps 1080p video is clipped to my helmet!

The Sony has 30 fps full-size still photos as 3:2 and 120 fps 4K video -- That's it!
Is that worth the $1500 Price Premium over the Canon R5?

If you're a TRUE Sony fan, then YES it's MUCH better camera than the Sony A92 but that $6499 price just kills me!

I someone gave be $6500 today, which camera would I buy of the above?

The answer is the Fuji GFX-100s cuz I want a truly LIGHT SENSITIVE MF sensor AND I WANT 100 megapixels!

V


----------



## SteveC (Jan 27, 2021)

Yep, I can confirm that if someone writes the forbidden D word it gets changed to "Canon the best."


----------



## slclick (Jan 27, 2021)

Nigel95 said:


> What will Canon bring to the table with the R7?


I know, I know! A different thread.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 27, 2021)

xwxw said:


> Exciting! I am glad this actually gives them time to work out all the details which would result of a more fine-tuned product in the end. Hope R1 will solve some of R5's pains in that it will have a bigger body, but given the weathering sealing, one might not expect magic when it comes to heat dissipation.



--

All Canon needs to do is put in a BIG high nickel content stainless steel plate on the bottom of the R1 that will act as the out-to-air thermal output of a BIG Internal Heat Sink for the internal high-heat-producing CPUs and RAM memory of the camera to give it a full non-overheating 12-to-16 hour shooting day typical of news reporting and sports/action workloads!

If Canon does that along with 60 fps fps DCI 8K 8192 x 4320 pixel video capture and 30 fps Burst rate Full-Size 3:2 stills, the R1 will be a total PRO-CAMERA category winner!

v


----------



## zim (Jan 27, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> --
> 
> All Canon needs to do is put in a BIG high nickel content stainless steel plate on the bottom of the R1 that will act as the out-to-air thermal output of a BIG Internal Heat Sink for the internal high-heat-producing CPUs and RAM memory of the camera to give it a full non-overheating 12-to-16 hour shooting day typical of news reporting and sports/action workloads!
> 
> ...


8k for 8k 

How hot would the external surface get though? that's a certification issue.


----------



## marathonman (Jan 27, 2021)

marathonman said:


> No Direct Print button = Canon the best.



What happened to integrity in the rumor world?


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 27, 2021)

If the R1 has a quad-pixel FF sensor with 8K video, that will be a lot to pack into a single 40+ MP sensor (probably ~45 MP with IBIS). I could see that being a possibility.

Or I could see them come out with a quadPixel FF sensor with 6K video, which would be (I assume) 6144 x 4096 = 25+ MP (probably ~30 MP with IBIS). That would allow it to be much faster and generate less heat, and possibly also allow them to add the (expensive) global shutter and still keep the cost down within reason (well, for a R1 flagship, that is).

I think they will probably have dual CFExpress-type B cards as pros will demand it, as well as a EVF similar to that in the Sony A1, both of which will also add more heat to the camera and thus might be another reason to have a ~30 MP sensor instead of a ~45 MP one. We'll see!


----------



## degos (Jan 27, 2021)

Yes 30/32MP would be nice. Contrary to much opinion on this site, most 1D aren't used blasting away at sports events. All my town's newspaper photographers use them because they're burstproof, shrug off the rain and and have a familiar UI. They don't need 14fps for the Mayor opening a new garden centre but it doesn't hurt to have it to hand.

Sure they could probably make do using a 5D4 but if your salary depends on your photos, why take a risk? A 1D shoots and shoots and focuses like the pro it is.


----------



## Joules (Jan 27, 2021)

SteveC said:


> Yep, I can confirm that if someone writes the forbidden D word it gets changed to "Canon the best."


The forum is _d.o.o.m.e.d _

Seriously though, altering peoples 'words' without any sort of marker or disclaimer is a pretty sh!tty move in my opinion.

Edit: Wow, even putting spaces in between is not enough!  It got changed to 'the greatest'. If there has to be censorship, at least mark it as such, instead of secretly changing the opinion people are expressing into the opposite!


----------



## padam (Jan 27, 2021)

Well, due to how the 1DX line has evolved over the years, I would think that apart from being a sports shooter, the R1 would also need to be useful as a B-cam sitting next to one of their professional video cameras.

And for them, a higher quality 4k60p 4k120p recording modes with less heat are more relevant than 8k.

So I would think if they start this line by sticking to evolving their current technology and not something that's yet more of a generation jump, they would use a 6k sensor which would enable full sensor internal RAW recording at 60p or maybe even higher to CFExpress cards, while controlling overheating. And it would do lots of fps as well.
But of course, this is the RF-mount, so a higher megapixel camera wouldn't be a bad thing to deploy on those new generation optics and of course processing may still provide a lower-resolution RAW output, if that's what the user prefers.

While the A1 has been presented, it is not given that Canon will aim to do exactly the same as the mirrorless model lineup on the Canon looks somewhat different, so I would not be surprised to see a camera clearly above the 1DX III, which is not going to just suddenly disappear.


----------



## motorhead9999 (Jan 27, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> AND please ALSO NOTE Fuji's introduction of the GFX-100s camera for $5999 USD which offers a full 100 megapixel MF sensor!
> 
> See review:
> 
> ...


Full disclosure: I'm mostly a Sony shooter, but still dabble in the Canon world.

You can't compare anything full frame to a medium format camera. It's like comparing an APS-C body to full frame. There's inherent differences in the sensor size and the images it can generate as well as pixel density. Furthermore, the GFX line is really "cropped" medium format. It's only marginally bigger than a full frame 35mm sensor, and doesn't come close to reaching the sensor size that's equivalent to the old Hasselblad 6x6 or Mamiya 6x7 format.

You know what else the GFX line can't do? Shoot at 30fps for 3-4 seconds, let alone keep autofocus going. But then that gets to the whole point of medium format. It's not a run and gun type camera. Medium format is meant to be either a studio queen, or a very methodical "always on a tripod" landscape camera. You're never going to have someone with a GFX or PhaseOne camera shooting a concert.

The R5 may very well trump the a1 in the video world. But honestly, there's a lot of us out here in the world who rarely if eve shoot video, let alone try and make a Netflix compliant TV show. You know what we're doing? Taking photos. And for those of us in the action world (concerts, sports, events etc), the ability to take 30fps with no evf blackout and still have 50mp to crop with is a huge thing, and far more important than 8k video recording capability.

The R5 is a fine camera.The Fuji GFX100s is a fine camera. The a1 is a fine camera. They are aimed at different areas, and it'll be up to the user to decide which is best for their needs.


----------



## David - Sydney (Jan 27, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> So I can tell you right now, as much as I want a massive resolution increase over the current 1DXIII, it will prevent many photographers from buying it. Unless Canon comes out with a better alternative to cRAW and allows us to shoot in smaller, more preferred resolutions, I and many others will struggle to justify making this our $6,000+ camera in the bag.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


cRAW is basically to fix storage issues on the cards at the expense of slightly lossy images
The main issue (if I understand you correctly) is the processing speed... I get this and my 2013 i7 16GB macbook pro is running slower than with my 5Div files but I will upgrade this year. A new MBP with upgrade M1 chip should address any of these issues and handle the 4:2:2 video codec editing with ease.


----------



## StandardLumen (Jan 27, 2021)

I'm tentatively planning on buying the R1 when it comes out, but I'm not in a rush. I love the R5.


----------



## David - Sydney (Jan 27, 2021)

Well... you asked for my list  I can't see the point of going past 45mp. It matches 8k/4k/2k resolutions perfectly and downsampling from >45mps to 8k is just extra processing power from 8.6k to 8k on the A1. Cropping would be worse I guess. Canon would go higher in price than the A1 to protect 1DXiii and the rugged 1D body form factor with the goodies below. Sync speed increase would be nice. Flippy screen should be there.

My guess for R1 is minimum specs as R5 but in 1D body ( AF-On smart controller buttons, dual CFe slots) with:
- Global shutter (no mechanical shutter). Rolling shutter artifacts significantly better than current electronic shutter
- 45mp sensor with IBIS (IBIS can be turned off)
- 30fps electronic shutter burst with full tracking - perhaps with buffer ie not unlimited
- ~20mp on-the fly over sampled (no lossy compression/cRAW/S-RAW) at full 30fps unlimited buffer. Best of both worlds.
- Dual Digic X to spread the heat generation and generate less heat per CPU
- Unlimited 8k cinema raw lite internal recording to CFe card capacity
- 6K/60. 4k/120 unlimited no crop internal recording.
- No line skipping/pixel binning 4k/6k modes ie oversampled from full sensor width
- 29:59 recording limit
- Clog2/3
- minimum 16fps using anti-flicker depending on frequency of the flicker lighting
- AF in very low light (quad pixel makes sense but would be equivalent to a 180mp sensor!)
- pixel shift high res stills
- 9+ megadot EFV with no blackout and fast refresh rates (at least 120fps). >0.5" in size
- full sized HDMI 2.1 port (48G) or thunderbolt 3 USB-C or both
- Mini XLR audio option
- Ethernet port
- Flippy screen included. This one I am not sure on but still needed I think. Weather sealing will need to be excellent though
USD10k

Won't directly compete with cinema line due to form factor but there will be a similar specced cinema form factor with unlimited 8k raw option, heaps of buttons and vented/fan cooled. Cxxx option will be more expensive.


----------



## Hector1970 (Jan 27, 2021)

It will be interesting what the R1 will eventually be.
I guess the FPS will be all electronic shutter. They probably won't exceed the 1DXIII on the physical shutter.
I assume it will now be more that 30 FPS. It will definately have 45 / 50MP or more. 
It will be interesting what progress they've made on focusing and tracking. 
Even the 1DXIII which has very good focus still struggles to focus on small objects like birds in cluttered backgrounds. 
The 20 MP on the 1DXIII I have always felt was too little. 30MP would have given it more longevity and all round usefulness.
It will be hard to sell 1DXIII with an R1 around. Canon may not be too concerned with that and be happy to bring the DSLR era to a close.

The 1DXIII is a great camera but it suddenly feels old fashioned. It's really huge and heavy.
A 5DIV which used to feel quite a solid weight feels lightweight in comparison.
I'd say the R1 will be smaller but can they somehow fit in an equivalent battery into it. 
Battery life does matter and batteries will be expensive, large and heavy. You won't want to be carting around 3/4 of them.
While part of me would love 30 FPS I'd say the reality is that it would wreck your head sorting through the images.
Even with the 1DXIII at 16FPS a few seconds of holding down the button and you are swamped with similar images.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in Canon. Would they be shocked at the Sony A1 or be quitely confident that they have something coming thats even better?


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 27, 2021)

zim said:


> 8k for 8k
> 
> How hot would the external surface get though? that's a certification issue.



---

At around 5 watts consumption for the ARM Cortex A5 and another 10 watts for the RAM over 16 hours you are looking at about 35 Celcius to 45 Celcius (120 F) at the stainless steel plate side of things which is a tad warm but not overly so, assuming the plate was at least 2 cm by 2 cm and 5mm thick.

Canon can use the camera tripod mounting plate as the out-to-air heat dissipation item. Just make it 2x2 cm or 3cm by 3cm and at least 5mm to 1 cm thick using high nickel content stainless steel (i.e. I would use 316L Grade Stainless Steel which is very corrosion resistant and has HIGH HEAT transfer capability)

Attached to an internal set of heat sinks that combined thermal dissipation and tripod mounting plate would basically let the camera work for the 12 to 16 hour days typical of news reporters, sports photographers and documentary videographers. I could do a thermal analysis and get a full thermal profile in about 48 hours if I wanted to change say a 1Dx3 over to an R5 sensor and a more powerful Octo-core CPU!

V


----------



## domo_p1000 (Jan 27, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Well... you asked for my list  I can't see the point of going past 45mp. It matches 8k/4k/2k resolutions perfectly and downsampling from >45mps to 8k is just extra processing power from 8.6k to 8k on the A1. Cropping would be worse I guess. Canon would go higher in price than the A1 to protect 1DXiii and the rugged 1D body form factor with the goodies below. Sync speed increase would be nice. Flippy screen should be there.
> 
> My guess for R1 is minimum specs as R5 but in 1D body ( AF-On smart controller buttons, dual CFe slots) with:
> - Global shutter (no mechanical shutter). Rolling shutter artifacts significantly better than current electronic shutter
> ...



I'd sign up for it (love the idea of mini XLR!).
That looks to be a sensible stab at the spec. While the pro line throws in the odd excitement every couple iterations (let's just gloss over the 1D III), it's important to remember that the line comes, necessarily from a fairly conservative stable (progressively better, yet superb fps; sensor resolution less of a consideration etc.). It almost saddens me that I have only ever switched across to video so I can use a 1DX3 as a webcam!!


----------



## AEWest (Jan 27, 2021)

Maps said:


> Prediction: The R1 will only be released this year if they actually go forward with the Olympics.


I don't get the ongoing fascination with summer Olympics. If it is cancelled, do we have to wait until 2024 for the R1?

There are major sports events ongoing throughout the world, it should be released when ready.

Of course, the competition may have just pushed up the timeline!


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 27, 2021)

motorhead9999 said:


> Full disclosure: I'm mostly a Sony shooter, but still dabble in the Canon world.
> 
> You can't compare anything full frame to a medium format camera. It's like comparing an APS-C body to full frame. There's inherent differences in the sensor size and the images it can generate as well as pixel density. Furthermore, the GFX line is really "cropped" medium format. It's only marginally bigger than a full frame 35mm sensor, and doesn't come close to reaching the sensor size that's equivalent to the old Hasselblad 6x6 or Mamiya 6x7 format.
> 
> ...



---

Actually, I did see someone shoot a Nightwish concert with a Phase One AND did the band interviews too!

That was in Germany a few years back -- AN AWESOME CONCERT BY THE WAY !!! Floor Jansen DEFINITELY CAN KEEP UP WITH Tarja Turunen in terms of the vocal gymnastics!






BEST SONG IS HERE starting at 1:06:22 and starting at 1:12:30 Floor Jansen REALLY AND COMPLETELY KILLS IT AWESOMELY WITH UTTERLY SPECTACULAR vocals:







YOU HAD TO BE THERE !!!!!!!!!!

WOW --- Best concert EVER And I have been to some of the BIGGEST IN THE WORLD --- Live Aid Wembley 1985, Stones UK, U2 Vancouver, Jean Micheal Jarre Paris with ONE MILLION+ concert goers, KISS Detroit, Bon Jovi LA, Nickelback TX, Motley Crue, Guns'n'Roses, DJ Tiesto, and YES! even Britney Spears in Las Vegas!

Out of all those, that Nightwish Wacken concert was the BEST EVER in terms of pure band AND crowd energy combined into a Operatic Metal Powerhouse Concert !!!!!!! You could literally FEEL the ripple of energy in the air!

V


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 27, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> Actually, I did see someone shoot a Nightwish concert with a Phase One AND did the band interviews too!
> 
> ...




Actually, Sorry....there was ONE OTHER concert 2017 in Finland in an outlying hockey arena way north of Helsinki that had about 5000 people in it for a Scandanavian Metal band that was sort of a combined Nightwish, Sabaton and U2 .... That nearly 4 hour concert lasted until 2 am and was probably the WILDEST, NOISIEST and PURE ENERGY concert I HAVE EVER EVER SEEN... The crowd was non-stop --- If it was scaled up to the typical 70,000 person stadium rock concert it would have COMPLETELY SHOOK THE EARTH !!!!!!!!!! YOu were totally DEAFENED!!!!!

!!!!!!!


AND.... the ONLY pro cameras I saw were ALL Canon 5D3 and 1Dx -- Winters are COLD in Finland and only a good weather sealed camera like the 5D and 1D series can take that sort of weather up there. A Sony A9 or A7 series would have died in just a few minutes! Canon does weather sealing and harsh climate shooting VERY VERY WELL !!!!!

V


----------



## Andy Westwood (Jan 27, 2021)

I can’t see many journalist / press photographers jumping to the a1 or pro sports shooters for that matter The lack of a built-in vertical grip and a body built like a tank wouldn’t last long with those photographers.

You only need look at used 1D bodies 2 years old with 600K activations battered and scuffed but still functioning as they should. I don’t think the Sony body would survive that type of abuse for very long, nor would those type of photographers want to use a smaller camera body.

I don’t think Canon will put an articulating screen on the R1 either, again I don’t think it would survive long protruding from the side of the body with many of these photographers that use a 1D.

Spec wise I’m sure Canon will get it right they know their 1D market better than anyone, but I do think there will be a bigger bump in mega pixels this time from pervious 1D models, given advancements with sensors, processors, transfer times and write-speeds. I also think Canon like Sony will make big improvements to their electronic shutter capabilities.

Yesterday was a good day for Sony users but also Canon users too as we look forward to Canon’s response with new and updated cameras always on the horizon.


----------



## slclick (Jan 27, 2021)

What do you think of the size of a 1 series grip larger than the R5 yet smaller than the DSLR 1's? That's how I envision the body size of a mirrorless 1 series. Dual orientation, larger battery, moderate mp's (30+ but not over 45) tough as nails with more than 500k+ shutter actuations.


----------



## zim (Jan 27, 2021)

Joules said:


> The forum is _d.o.o.m.e.d _
> 
> Seriously though, altering peoples 'words' without any sort of marker or disclaimer is a pretty sh!tty move in my opinion.
> 
> Edit: Wow, even putting spaces in between is not enough!  It got changed to 'the greatest'. If there has to be censorship, at least mark it as such, instead of secretly changing the opinion people are expressing into the opposite!



Agreed, we get it I'm a little tired of the '*******' joke as well but this is a very ill advised move by admin. It's a matter of trust. They should apologise


----------



## zim (Jan 27, 2021)

See, not nice at all


----------



## zim (Jan 28, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> At around 5 watts consumption for the ARM Cortex A5 and another 10 watts for the RAM over 16 hours you are looking at about 35 Celcius to 45 Celcius (120 F) at the stainless steel plate side of things which is a tad warm but not overly so, assuming the plate was at least 2 cm by 2 cm and 5mm thick.
> 
> ...


I'm talking about low heat temperature burns from prolonged skin contact. Is that not a design constraint?


----------



## zim (Jan 28, 2021)

marathonman said:


> What happened to integrity in the rumor world?


It just went down the drain


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 28, 2021)

marathonman said:


> What happened to integrity in the rumor world?


It’s d00med?


----------



## Joules (Jan 28, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> It’s d00med?


That's frowned upon


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 28, 2021)

Joules said:


> That's frowned upon


Indeed, it appears “it’s d00med“ is *******, and not before time....


----------



## zim (Jan 28, 2021)

Joules said:


> That's frowned upon


I know its easy to joke this away but there is a bigger picture here imagine there is a poster that an admin takes a dislike too they change the posters words to insult or be abusive to ligitimise a ban. We trust that would never happen right?
Words matter.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 28, 2021)

zim said:


> I know its easy to joke this away but there is a bigger picture here imagine there is a poster that an admin takes a dislike too they change the posters words to insult or be abusive to ligitimise a ban. We trust that would never happen right?
> Words matter.


Sure they do but this site and ones like it are privately owned, there is no ‘right‘ for the users to be able to speak nor for there opinions to be accurately represented. We choose to be here and if we don’t like the way we are monitored or the way the site is run we can delete our posts and leave.


----------



## Joules (Jan 28, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Sure they do but this site and ones like it are privately owned, there is no ‘right‘ for the users to be able to speak nor for there opinions to be accurately represented. We choose to be here and if we don’t like the way we are monitored or the way the site is run we can delete our posts and leave.


Nonetheless, we can also express our opinions about a situation.


----------



## adrian_bacon (Jan 28, 2021)

I have both the R6 and R5, and have the extender grip for both. That makes it very much like the 1D series.

Quad pixel AF would be nice, and use it for dual or quad gain output to significantly boost the dynamic range in addition to better autofocus.

For a flagship pro sports shooter camera, I'm not sure 45mp is really what those guys want, but at the same time, 20MP isn't enough either. I'd like to see at least 24MP though, with the ability to record the full 6K raw. If Canon really wants to do a full 8K+ flagship R1 series, then they really need to bring the performance. As it is, for stills, the R6 is basically a mirrorless 1DX Mark III.


----------



## adrian_bacon (Jan 28, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> So I can tell you right now, as much as I want a massive resolution increase over the current 1DXIII, it will prevent many photographers from buying it. Unless Canon comes out with a better alternative to cRAW and allows us to shoot in smaller, more preferred resolutions, I and many others will struggle to justify making this our $6,000+ camera in the bag.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...



I have to totally agree with this, as it's exactly what I've done. I have the R5 for when I need/want the higher resolution, but the rest of the time, it's the R6. Wayyy smaller files and way faster turnaround.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 28, 2021)

Joules said:


> Nonetheless, we can also express our opinions about a situation.


Of course, but we don’t have a ‘right’ to. The only right we have is the option to not partake.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 28, 2021)

Joules said:


> The forum is _d.o.o.m.e.d _
> 
> Seriously though, altering peoples 'words' without any sort of marker or disclaimer is a pretty sh!tty move in my opinion.
> 
> Edit: Wow, even putting spaces in between is not enough!  It got changed to 'the greatest'. If there has to be censorship, at least mark it as such, instead of secretly changing the opinion people are expressing into the opposite!



Canon is DOOOOOOOOOOOMED !!!!!!!!!

V


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 28, 2021)

zim said:


> I'm talking about low heat temperature burns from prolonged skin contact. Is that not a design constraint?



--

In North America, UL (Underwriters Laboratories) and CSA (Canadian Standards Association) would normally take a look to see if the operation of a camera would cause a big hazard and either label said item a true hazard requiring engineering changes OR they would suggest specific warnings.

In my opinion, adding a simple removable silicone rubber cover with tiny holes in it to a heat dissipation plate that is part of the camera/tripod mount system would be a VIABLE SOLUTION to heat removal issues.

When mounted to a tripod, the plate would act as designed removing heat to the atmosphere via simple thermal radiation. With a silicone rubber cover on, the user can handle the camera as normal with only a general warning to users needed. 

35 to 45 Celcius is definitely doable in a consumer product IF the rubber cover was installed for handheld use OR a secondary heat plate guard that had extra space between it and the user was installed. I do believe MOST USERS would move their hands out of the way as temps on the heat dissipation plates got to 35+ Celcius so I don't see that as being a huge safety issue.

V


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 28, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> --
> 
> In North America, UL (Underwriters Laboratories) and CSA (Canadian Standards Association) would normally take a look to see if the operation of a camera would cause a big hazard and either label said item a true hazard requiring engineering changes OR they would suggest specific warnings.
> 
> ...


It's interesting to see your thoughtful post, Harry. But I don't think that you can rely on any camera to be put on a tripod in order to disapate enough heat to make it a needed element to cool an otherwise too-warm camera. The reason is that it will often not be put on a tripod and then you are back to square 1. Canon could have routed their inner R5 heat sink metal strips to the tripod socket, but to my recollection the lensrentals teardown indicated that they did not bother to do so.

I previously suggested that Canon consider a small portion of one or more camera sides to contain a small hollow channel or channels through a non-corrosive heat conducting metal heat pipe to allow air to rise from the bottom to the top of the camera, dissipating heat naturally without need of a fan. It would be designed to allow moisture, or rain, to enter into it which would further cool the camera and there would be no way that moisture/water could enter any other region of the camera as is it totally enclosed within the heat pipe(s). The hole(s) on bottom & top could be quite small and almost unnoticeable.

Canon could even take this one step further and design the outer side walls to be a non-corrosive heat conducting metal design with continuous columns of small hollow channels allowing air to rise from small holes on the bottom to small holes in the top of the metal sides, almost unnoticeable. Of course the metal sides could still have a normal rubberized skin attached for normal ergonomic in-hand feel.

What do you think of this? If it has merit, then I'd be interested in your thoughts of how a possible design could be created and submitted to Canon. I don't have the ability to do this, but you probably do if you're interested.


----------



## gavinz (Jan 28, 2021)

Quad pixel AF + global shutter. 4k res. The global shutter will be the killer functionality and finally get rid of the mechanical shutter.


----------



## Surab (Jan 28, 2021)

I mean the biggest feature of the A1 far and above is the electronic shutter that enables 1/200 s flash sync. That e shutter is the main draw.

But as long as the R1 can replicate or improve upon that (we all hope for a global shutter) then I would say that Canon is not *******.


----------



## Surab (Jan 28, 2021)

Surab said:


> I mean the biggest feature of the A1 far and above is the electronic shutter that enables 1/200 s flash sync. That e shutter is the main draw.
> 
> But as long as the R1 can replicate or improve upon that (we all hope for a global shutter) then I would say that Canon is not the best.



Hmmm. I meant to say they are not dooooooomed..... Well done. I will leave it the way the script has changed it.


----------



## David - Sydney (Jan 28, 2021)

slclick said:


> What do you think of the size of a 1 series grip larger than the R5 yet smaller than the DSLR 1's? That's how I envision the body size of a mirrorless 1 series. Dual orientation, larger battery, moderate mp's (30+ but not over 45) tough as nails with more than 500k+ shutter actuations.


No need for a shutter to fail if there is no mechanical shutter ie if they implement a global shutter


----------



## AJ (Jan 28, 2021)

I think short battery life for MILC is *******.
That, and the R1 will have quad-pixel AF.


----------



## terrellcwoods (Jan 28, 2021)

dwarven said:


> Whatever specs it has it will probably be more than capable. I'd like to see backlit buttons even though I'd probably never be able to afford the camera


A perfectly sensible request. I bought some used Nikons and those illuminated dials made omuch sense


----------



## expatinasia (Jan 28, 2021)

I agree about the form factor. I love the 1D series. One has to wonder whether it is wise to bring a new pro camera to market right now. So many events were cancelled last year, and this year looks to be the same. I think Canon should work on firmware upgrades for 1DX I, II and III and release the EOS 1R or 1DX V (jump IV, why not) in 2022 or even 2023.


----------



## Traveler (Jan 28, 2021)

I wish Canon makes an overpriced packed R3 (R2) that has everything we wish if money is no object. Just for marketing purposes. Give it to the influencers for free. And it's better marketing and cheaper than paying ads and exhibitions.


----------



## Ale_F (Jan 28, 2021)

User don't buy Defender/Renegade for their power.

So pro users don't buy 1D for MPs


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 28, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> It's interesting to see your thoughtful post, Harry. But I don't think that you can rely on any camera to be put on a tripod in order to disapate enough heat to make it a needed element to cool an otherwise too-warm camera. The reason is that it will often not be put on a tripod and then you are back to square 1. Canon could have routed their inner R5 heat sink metal strips to the tripod socket, but to my recollection the lensrentals teardown indicated that they did not bother to do so.
> 
> I previously suggested that Canon consider a small portion of one or more camera sides to contain a small hollow channel or channels through a stainless metal heat pipe to allow air to rise from the bottom to the top of the camera, dissipating heat naturally without need of a fan. It would be designed to allow moisture, or rain, to enter into it which would further cool the camera and there would be no way that moisture/water could enter any other region of the camera as is it totally enclosed within the heat pipe(s). The hole(s) on bottom & top could be quite small and almost unnoticeable.
> 
> ...



---

WOW !!!! You just described our cooling system patent documents on our 16K camera !!!!!!!

Where did you get these ideas! We thought along the same path! We'll be releasing the docs next week and you will see a BIG SIMILARITY in our cooling system to what YOU just described!

Great Minds Think Alike!

SWEET!

V


----------



## Antono Refa (Jan 28, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> If the R1 has a quad-pixel FF sensor with 8K video, that will be a lot to pack into a single 40+ MP sensor (probably ~45 MP with IBIS). I could see that being a possibility.



8K requires 33MP, which I think is plausible. Quad pixel AF requires 4 photo sites per pixel, which requires >130 million photo sites. I don't see that happening. Even two photo sites, alternating between vertically and horizontally, seems too much to me.


----------



## Sporgon (Jan 28, 2021)

motorhead9999 said:


> There's inherent differences in the sensor size and the images it can generate as well as pixel density. Furthermore, the GFX line is really "cropped" medium format. It's only marginally bigger than a full frame 35mm sensor, and doesn't come close to reaching the sensor size that's equivalent to the old Hasselblad 6x6 or Mamiya 6x7 format.


As a 'cropped' MF sensor and having 100mp the pixel pitch is, unfortunately, not much different to your asp and FF digital format now, being about 3.6um. A 50mp FF sensor has a pixel pitch of 4.1um. Personally I'd rather have 50mp (1.7 x FF) DMF sensor.


----------



## Joules (Jan 28, 2021)

Antono Refa said:


> 8K requires 33MP, which I think is plausible. Quad pixel AF requires 4 photo sites per pixel, which requires >130 million photo sites. I don't see that happening. Even two photo sites, alternating between vertically and horizontally, seems too much to me.


Today, Canon is fitting 32.5 M pixels with 2 photosites each into an APS-C sized area with the 90D and M6 II sensor. That's 2*32.5 = 65 M photosites on an APS-C sized area, and could be scaled up to 1.6^2*65 M = 166.4 M photosites on a FF sensor. With 4 photosites per pixel, that would result in 41.6 MP. So purely in terms of manufacturing the photosites, it seems Canon has the technology to pull off QPAF already.

Also, with regards to 33 MP being enough for 8K, it is worth noting that you need 45 MP if the sensor is also supposed to be able to output 3:2 stills.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Jan 28, 2021)

Maps said:


> Prediction: The R1 will only be released this year if they actually go forward with the Olympics.



That makes no sense, the Olympics are in July if they go ahead and the R1 is not being released before the end of the year.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Jan 28, 2021)

So apparently after keeping the resolution of the 1D series ridiculously low to pacify pro's, now 8K is a thing apparently 45MP+ is going to perfectly acceptable for them.

I find it hard to believe they'll go beyond even 30MP. They could offer 6K but I guess it's 4K or 8K with Canon. I hope they do offer 45MP+ however. I don't really care about global shutter as stacked sensor already is good enough IMO and no doubt easier to implement and has less issues with DR.

I wonder what the Nikon Z8/Z9 will bring to the table and we already know Nikon is working on D6 replacement too.


----------



## Tremotino (Jan 28, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> AND please ALSO NOTE Fuji's introduction of the GFX-100s camera for $5999 USD which offers a full 100 megapixel MF sensor!
> 
> See review:
> 
> ...


R5 is $2500 less than sony a1 not $1500.
Your can buy one of the marvelous RF lenses with that money.


----------



## Treyarnon (Jan 28, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> I'll admit, I would be slightly disappointed if the R1 is higher than 40 megapixels. I already have 45 megapixels on my R5, so I would far prefer 60-120 FPS still photographs at 30 megapixels than 30 FPS stills at 50 megapixels. That said, if the market is truly changing so drastically in this way(24 megapixels has not caused any issue on the 1D or A9), I guess I would appreciate both of my cameras being similar in resolution like the 5D3 and 1DX2 were.



I was surprised by Sony's decision to put 50MP into the A1 - but I think they are on the right track here.

Think about it - a 50 (or 45) MP camera CAN shoot at 20MP, and do so at the same speed as a '20MP' camera.

However a 20MP camera cannot shoot at 45/50MP [and 8k].

The old notion that you could have 'High Speed' OR 'High resolution' is not true any more.


----------



## DBounce (Jan 28, 2021)

xwxw said:


> Exciting! I am glad this actually gives them time to work out all the details which would result of a more fine-tuned product in the end. Hope R1 will solve some of R5's pains in that it will have a bigger body, but given the weathering sealing, one might not expect magic when it comes to heat dissipation.


A camera can be weather sealed without being thermally sealed.


----------



## DBounce (Jan 28, 2021)

bergstrom said:


> how theyre making the sony a1 without flip screen is stupid.



Sony have clearly positioned the A1 as a stills camera first and foremost. That’s why they removed the articulated screen from the A7S III body that it utilizes.

The real question is: Why does the “stills focused” A1 get S-Cinetone, while the “video focused” A7S III does not?


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 28, 2021)

Tremotino said:


> R5 is $2500 less than sony a1 not $1500.
> Your can buy one of the marvelous RF lenses with that money.




Ooops! I just Noted that Mistake! Will change!

Thanks.

V


----------



## Pape (Jan 28, 2021)

All rumours about 1200mm Do lense and from other big ones ,why 1 serie needs more megapixels?
Where reporters need 8k videos anyway?
And maybe that global shutter is so insanely fast that it can make pixel shift 8k video ?


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 28, 2021)

xwxw said:


> Exciting! I am glad this actually gives them time to work out all the details which would result of a more fine-tuned product in the end. Hope R1 will solve some of R5's pains in that it will have a bigger body, but given the weathering sealing, one might not expect magic when it comes to heat dissipation.



Waiting with popcorn in 2021 to see what Sony, Canon and Nikon brings to the table.


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 28, 2021)

Antono Refa said:


> 8K requires 33MP, which I think is plausible. Quad pixel AF requires 4 photo sites per pixel, which requires >130 million photo sites. I don't see that happening. Even two photo sites, alternating between vertically and horizontally, seems too much to me.


8K on a _FF sensor _requires around 8192 x 5461 min. sensor, or 44.7MP. With IBIS I could see this approaching 50MP. With a quad pixel technology per pixel it will take so much detail that I don't really think it will happen, but it might.
6K on a _FF sensor_ requires around 6144 x 4096 min. sensor, or 25.2 MP. With IBIS I could see this more like 28-30MP. I could _definitely_ see this happening with quad pixels.

I don't think that there will be a sensor with continuous alternating (every other one) horizontal DP and vertical DP as it would make make the layout too difficult & inefficient (too much wasted area) to be done efficiently. If it was that easy then Canon would have done it already, or done it as an inbetween chip before the qual pixel one is done.


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 28, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> WOW !!!! You just described our cooling system patent documents on our 16K camera !!!!!!!
> 
> ...


OK - very funny! 

But on the off chance that you're serious (yes, a verrrrrry far-off chance), I'll be looking forward to your release next week!


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jan 28, 2021)

xwxw said:


> Exciting! I am glad this actually gives them time to work out all the details which would result of a more fine-tuned product in the end. Hope R1 will solve some of R5's pains in that it will have a bigger body, but given the weathering sealing, one might not expect magic when it comes to heat dissipation.


Canon could potentially obsolete the A1 in one R5 firmware update.
On that note, has anyone heard from Tilta about the R5 cooling module?
a few people have made homemade versions but they look kind of grotesque.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jan 28, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> My guess for R1 is minimum specs as R5 but in 1D body ( AF-On smart controller buttons, dual CFe slots) with:
> - Global shutter (no mechanical shutter). Rolling shutter artifacts significantly better than current electronic shutter


1) Wouldn't we still need a mechanical shutter for a flash?
2) There is no such thing as a rolling shutter artifact with a global shutter.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jan 28, 2021)

Just give me an R2-D2 and it will bring back the photos to me. Even process them if I'm busy re-streaming _The Mandalorian._


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jan 28, 2021)

expatinasia said:


> I agree about the form factor. I love the 1D series. One has to wonder whether it is wise to bring a new pro camera to market right now. So many events were cancelled last year, and this year looks to be the same. I think Canon should work on firmware upgrades for 1DX I, II and III and release the EOS 1R or 1DX V (jump IV, why not) in 2022 or even 2023.


The sheer amount of cameras Sony, Canon, Nikon, and Fuji are bringing in a contracting market boggles my mind.
I have no idea why they are coming out with new cameras and yet photographers are complaining that there is no more.


----------



## JohnC (Jan 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> The sheer amount of cameras Sony, Canon, Nikon, and Fuji are bringing in a contracting market boggles my mind.
> I have no idea why they are coming out with new cameras and yet photographers are complaining that there is no more.



A race to see which dog gets the biggest meal in a new mirrorless era. Whether the total market is smaller or not is somewhat irrelevant, you still want to have the most of it. If you don't you might as well bail out.


----------



## David_E (Jan 28, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> _Yesterday Sony set the gear world ablaze_...


I just checked. My world is not afire, and all of my cameras are still fully functional.


----------



## AEWest (Jan 28, 2021)

expatinasia said:


> I agree about the form factor. I love the 1D series. One has to wonder whether it is wise to bring a new pro camera to market right now. So many events were cancelled last year, and this year looks to be the same. I think Canon should work on firmware upgrades for 1DX I, II and III and release the EOS 1R or 1DX V (jump IV, why not) in 2022 or even 2023.


I don't think they should wait that long - they do need to respond to the competition sooner. 

If Nikon dithers, some pro Nikon D6 shooters will be looking to switch and will only have Sony as the pro mirrorless option. Canon wouldn't want that to happen.


----------



## canonmike (Jan 28, 2021)

Maps said:


> Prediction: The R1 will only be released this year if they actually go forward with the Olympics.


Given the recent Sony A1 announcement, I don't think that would be a very good strategy on Canon's part, unless Canon knows they will now need to go back to the drawing board and up their R1 game to better compete with Sony's new A1, in which case, the Olympics won't have much bearing on its release. What a great time to be a consumer. I don't think the R1 will disappoint. Bring it on!!!!!


----------



## Maps (Jan 28, 2021)

canonmike said:


> Given the recent Sony A1 announcement, I don't think that would be a very good strategy on Canon's part, unless Canon knows they will now need to go back to the drawing board and up their R1 game to better compete with Sony's new A1, in which case, the Olympics won't have much bearing on its release. What a great time to be a consumer. I don't think the R1 will disappoint. Bring it on!!!!!



Agree with this and many other valid points that folks have brought up. I’m more wondering what the state of their manufacturing apparatus is at this point and whether it’s wise to throw another product into the mix if they don’t absolutely have to. It kind of feels to me like they’re getting “peer-pressured” into an R1.


----------



## canonmike (Jan 28, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> If the R1 has a quad-pixel FF sensor with 8K video, that will be a lot to pack into a single 40+ MP sensor (probably ~45 MP with IBIS). I could see that being a possibility.
> 
> Or I could see them come out with a quadPixel FF sensor with 6K video, which would be (I assume) 6144 x 4096 = 25+ MP (probably ~30 MP with IBIS). That would allow it to be much faster and generate less heat, and possibly also allow them to add the (expensive) global shutter and still keep the cost down within reason (well, for a R1 flagship, that is).
> 
> I think they will probably have dual CFExpress-type B cards as pros will demand it, as well as a EVF similar to that in the Sony A1, both of which will also add more heat to the camera and thus might be another reason to have a ~30 MP sensor instead of a ~45 MP one. We'll see!


I believe that sports photographers, now using 1Dx iii's, would be more than happy with a 30 mp sensor, at most, on an R1. Landscape and nature photographers, while benefiting more from a higher 40-50+ mp sensor could be kept happy with an R5 version of the current 5ds r body. Many 1Dx iii sports photogs, often state that 20mp are enough for them, so I wouldn't expect them to fight for 40-50 mp in an R1. It will be interesting to see what mp approach Canon takes with the R1. You have to admire all R&D engineers across all brands for what they are now bringing to the table. Love what they are able to do as they now flirt with science fiction level capabilities in these new bodies. Just when we don't see how they could improve upon feature sets, they do just that.


----------



## SteveC (Jan 28, 2021)

The R1 will force me to change the statement I make at the top of my signature, I'm sure of that. 

I might have to do so thanks to S*ny in any case.


----------



## canonmike (Jan 28, 2021)

Hector1970 said:


> It will be interesting what the R1 will eventually be.
> I guess the FPS will be all electronic shutter. They probably won't exceed the 1DXIII on the physical shutter.
> I assume it will now be more that 30 FPS. It will definately have 45 / 50MP or more.
> It will be interesting what progress they've made on focusing and tracking.
> ...


Quite agree with your final statement.


----------



## H. Jones (Jan 28, 2021)

Treyarnon said:


> I was surprised by Sony's decision to put 50MP into the A1 - but I think they are on the right track here.
> 
> Think about it - a 50 (or 45) MP camera CAN shoot at 20MP, and do so at the same speed as a '20MP' camera.
> 
> ...



I would agree with this only if Canon actually included a full-quality mRaw 20megapixel mode in the R1. But the R5 doesn't have that anymore, just cRaw. That means that, for me to shoot full quality raw files for my archives, I have to shoot the full 45 megapixels, which is 1: absolute overkill for most general news event coverage, and 2: so much data that it can drastically slow things down. I had to upgrade my laptop this year to a maxed out $4500 Dell XPS just to deal with the 20 FPS raw from the R5, and that's while my second body is still only 20 mp. It will be even more chaos and money into external harddrives if I have two 45 megapixel cameras, though the new laptop should handle it.

I actually often find myself using the 1.6x crop mode more when shooting wildlife or distant subjects in fast action, because 17 megapixels at 20FPS is far more manageable and doesn't bug me at all data-wise. While shooting full sensor gives you more reframing ability, most of the time with small birds/subjects you'll have to crop in even more from the 17MP anyway, so I'd rather just not deal with all that excess data.



On another note, did some math and it appears that at 30 megapixels, a 1700 mb/s CF-Express Type B card could pull off roughly 60FPS raw files in a second. I fully anticipate Canon pushing the FPS factor versus fighting the megapixel war again. When you consider Canon will probably has a 90+ MP EOS R5s lined up, I think they've already solved the A1 competition with the R5 at 20 FPS 45 megapixels, and will stick to a lower res but blistering FPS for the R1.


----------



## jam05 (Jan 28, 2021)

Joules said:


> I doubt that is such a tight dependency. It makes no sense to sit on a developed product that is ready for mass production. What would that gain you?
> 
> We've seen numerous products launch as soon as possible despite not being able to meet the demand (all types of PC hardware, for example), for example. If Canon was behind schedule with development of the R1, a cancellation of the Olympics may take off some of the pressure, sure. But I would fully expect them to start production and shipping as soon as they are ready. Especially since production will likely see similar shortages as all other electronics devices for the early periods, and so a longer production run ahead of the sports world reopening would seem highly desireable to me.


There are no mass demands for cameras


----------



## Joules (Jan 28, 2021)

jam05 said:


> There are no mass demands for cameras


What are you saying? That we are just imaging the demand exceeding the supply for products such as the R5 at launch?


----------



## David - Sydney (Jan 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> 1) Wouldn't we still need a mechanical shutter for a flash?
> 2) There is no such thing as a rolling shutter artifact with a global shutter.


1) Sony have implemented eshutter with flash sync up to 1/200s and 1/400s if using its mechanical shutter. Part of implementing a global shutter would be to address flash sync. It could be possible to include a mechanical shutter specifically for flash but hopefully that cost won't be required
2) Agreed but with everything, there is always some delay as "instant" parallel read for each pixel doesn't exist in reality. I would need to check the patents for Canon's global shutter for how it exactly works.
Sony have reduced their read sensor time and are getting closer to an effective global shutter.


----------



## mpeeps (Jan 29, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Sure they do but this site and ones like it are privately owned, there is no ‘right‘ for the users to be able to speak nor for there opinions to be accurately represented. We choose to be here and if we don’t like the way we are monitored or the way the site is run we can delete our posts and leave.


And get our money back??


----------



## AccipiterQ (Jan 29, 2021)

Why not let it be 20MP....and you know....let video cameras be video cameras. If you want something with that, go get a camera specifically for that.


----------



## DBounce (Jan 29, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Canon could potentially obsolete the A1 in one R5 firmware update.
> On that note, has anyone heard from Tilta about the R5 cooling module?
> a few people have made homemade versions but they look kind of grotesque.


Well I doubt a firmware update would yield the blazing 30 FPS shutter speed. But in some ways the R5 is already superior:

• 8K Raw internal with 4:2:2 color vs No raw
• Downsampled 4K vs Pixel binned
• Higher resolution LCD
• Superior ergonomics
• Better color science, by most accounts
• Records to more affordable, but faster media
• Cost almost half as much

I replaced my R5 with the A7S III... a camera which offers a good balance and reliable operation. But if the choice was between the unreasonably priced, inferior video shooting A1 and the R5? I’m thinking I would still have the R5.


----------



## Chig (Jan 29, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> So I can tell you right now, as much as I want a massive resolution increase over the current 1DXIII, it will prevent many photographers from buying it. Unless Canon comes out with a better alternative to cRAW and allows us to shoot in smaller, more preferred resolutions, I and many others will struggle to justify making this our $6,000+ camera in the bag.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


Have you experimented with the HEIF file format at all ? 
Looks to have similar editing flexibility to raw but with small file size like jpegs.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 29, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> OK - very funny!
> 
> But on the off chance that you're serious (yes, a verrrrrry far-off chance), I'll be looking forward to your release next week!




---

NO! It's almost identical to what you described! Cooling tubes through the camera body! Where DID you get that idea from?

---


----------



## Chig (Jan 29, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> --
> 
> All Canon needs to do is put in a BIG high nickel content stainless steel plate on the bottom of the R1 that will act as the out-to-air thermal output of a BIG Internal Heat Sink for the internal high-heat-producing CPUs and RAM memory of the camera to give it a full non-overheating 12-to-16 hour shooting day typical of news reporting and sports/action workloads!
> 
> ...


Doesn't seem necessary , especially as the R1 is probably stills focused (R5 doesn't overheat with stills) and will have 2 processors and 2 CF express slots like 1DXiii and large body . I think it will have any overheating issues at all.

Also stainless steel is a very poor heat conductor compared with aluminium , copper or even magnesium which would make much effective heatsinks.

Even just leaving the rear of the magnesium body exposed (behind the flippy screen) would help heat dissipation enormously but again unnecessary I think


----------



## David - Sydney (Jan 29, 2021)

DBounce said:


> Well I doubt a firmware update would yield the blazing 30 FPS shutter speed. But in some ways the R5 is already superior:
> 
> • 8K Raw internal with 4:2:2 color vs No raw
> • Downsampled 4K vs Pixel binned
> ...


Interesting that the R5 and A1 are being directly compared even though they are in vastly different price points. Maybe similar to R5/A7Siii discussions previously. A couple of other differences if we are going down that path...
No top LCD
30fps is lossy jpg vs 20fps raw (same as R5)
10fps mechanical shutter vs 12fps R5
=> R5 slows down with <50% battery though
Cropped 4k120 (if I understand correctly)
The downsampled 4k is from 5.8k rather than from 8k
Balance with bigger lenses
Higher res EVF but it drops to the same res as the R5 when using 240fps.
No DCI video modes

There will be many direct comparisons in the future especially after Canon's next firmware release. Sony left their marketing announcement very late compared to previous releases. I imagine that they learnt from the R5 not to say anything early that cannot be provided to meet reasonable record times. Sony has done some good thermal work for 8K recording in a small body and battery life.
The fact that there will be now 2 x 8k capable mirrorless bodies in less than 12 months is remarkable.

The ruggednesss/form factor of the 1DXiii and D6 and pro support will keep them going but the A1 in the same price bracket beats them in specs easily now. The reviews of the 1DXiii were fantastic but things have moved quickly since.
Still can't understand why Sony went with 50mp vs 45mp (native 8k width). Seems to have caused them more processing work.


----------



## David - Sydney (Jan 29, 2021)

Chig said:


> Doesn't seem necessary , especially as the R1 is probably stills focused (R5 doesn't overheat with stills) and will have 2 processors and 2 CF express slots like 1DXiii and large body . I think it will have any overheating issues at all.
> 
> Also stainless steel is a very poor heat conductor compared with aluminium , copper or even magnesium which would make much effective heatsinks.
> 
> Even just leaving the rear of the magnesium body exposed (behind the flippy screen) would help heat dissipation enormously but again unnecessary I think


The R5 hack to add a heat spreader to the rear body behind the LCD showed just how hot it would get. I don't know how badly the life expectancy of the LCD would be if it was turned in but I can't believe it would not have an impact. Speed etc could be throttled unless the rear LCD was turned out but the low temperature burn would still be an issue for touching it. Will be fascinating to see how Sony manages the thermal issues with a smaller body and only a tilt screen


----------



## Chig (Jan 29, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> It's interesting to see your thoughtful post, Harry. But I don't think that you can rely on any camera to be put on a tripod in order to disapate enough heat to make it a needed element to cool an otherwise too-warm camera. The reason is that it will often not be put on a tripod and then you are back to square 1. Canon could have routed their inner R5 heat sink metal strips to the tripod socket, but to my recollection the lensrentals teardown indicated that they did not bother to do so.
> 
> I previously suggested that Canon consider a small portion of one or more camera sides to contain a small hollow channel or channels through a stainless metal heat pipe to allow air to rise from the bottom to the top of the camera, dissipating heat naturally without need of a fan. It would be designed to allow moisture, or rain, to enter into it which would further cool the camera and there would be no way that moisture/water could enter any other region of the camera as is it totally enclosed within the heat pipe(s). The hole(s) on bottom & top could be quite small and almost unnoticeable.
> 
> ...


Well stainless steel is a very poor heat conductor .

I would suggest on a camera like the R5 and R6 just leave the magnesium body uncovered behind the flippy screen and leave the screen folded out to improve airflow when the camera's getting too hot.

With the R1 the main focus will be stills (probably maximum resolution of 30mp too) and it will have a larger body , twin processor chips and twin CF express slots so very unlikely to have any overheating issues.


----------



## Chig (Jan 29, 2021)

Joules said:


> Today, Canon is fitting 32.5 M pixels with 2 photosites each into an APS-C sized area with the 90D and M6 II sensor. That's 2*32.5 = 65 M photosites on an APS-C sized area, and could be scaled up to 1.6^2*65 M = 166.4 M photosites on a FF sensor. With 4 photosites per pixel, that would result in 41.6 MP. So purely in terms of manufacturing the photosites, it seems Canon has the technology to pull off QPAF already.
> 
> Also, with regards to 33 MP being enough for 8K, it is worth noting that you need 45 MP if the sensor is also supposed to be able to output 3:2 stills.


A square sensor would be a better option I think


----------



## Chig (Jan 29, 2021)

JohnC said:


> A race to see which dog gets the biggest meal in a new mirrorless era. Whether the total market is smaller or not is somewhat irrelevant, you still want to have the most of it. If you don't you might as well bail out.


The pro and high end enthusiast camera market is pretty stable (not many pro sports or wildlife photographers using smartphones) and these cameras are high profit margin so Canon and Sony both want to dominate this market whereas Nikon seems to have given up but may yet surprise us as Canon did last year


----------



## Mahk43 (Jan 29, 2021)

Sony show the A1 but it is clearly not as pro as a 1D serie body.
They are on the "multi-tool still/movie" segment like a R5 rather than 1D serie.

About fps, I think pros are not convinced with electronical shutter and will wait a R1 with a faster mechanical shutter.

About the eyefinder I'm not sure it is important for pros to be at 8 or 9M rather than staying arround 6 but with a solution to avoid any issue and be the closest to the mirror DSLR experience.

Sony has made a mistake giving the name A1 to the last body because it's the last number they could give to a premium body. Except if they name a A0 for another pro body one day but I doubt. That mean for me they will never go on the real pro bodies like the 1D.

It is clear that Sony and Canon will compete on the A7/R5/A1 segment of multi-tool premium body but not on the pro unbreakable and reliable, 1D serie segment.
For this last segment, Canon is unbeatable because it is not just a question of body, but also services, network, support and everything that makes why, at the end ,main medias uses this kind of body for main events in sports, politics etc.

Other mistake from Sony is the price, because with such a high price, it is now very easy for Canon to justify a bigger price than the 1Dxiii for the next R1, like 8 or 9000. It was an issue for them, and Sony help them to take the step

Last mistake is the calendar, as Olympics will certainly be canceled, and main medias count only on sports that continue for now, but not investing that much, I doubt it would be profitable to launch a new pro body now. I think Canon is waiting, they know they can invest this time to make a better product and be ready for full pro support when they will launch it.

Finally all this to say that we can't really compare the A1 and the future R1


----------



## landon (Jan 29, 2021)

The A1 is now the best selling mirrorless camera on Amazon. Consequently, the R5 is bumped up to #2-#5, with the R6 also getting a bump. They seem like bargains, with a better body.
Sony bought Minolta. They're doing their best to get good products out. They don't have the capacity to make good bodies (yet), but they make up for it in software. It's small, and fits in small bag. 
A1 will sell to a few pros and wealthy enthusiasts and utubers. If the R1's body is between R5 and 1D, then I can see not only pros but MANY enthusiasts getting one also.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jan 29, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> The R5 hack to add a heat spreader to the rear body behind the LCD showed just how hot it would get. I don't know how badly the life expectancy of the LCD would be if it was turned in but I can't believe it would not have an impact. Speed etc could be throttled unless the rear LCD was turned out but the low temperature burn would still be an issue for touching it. Will be fascinating to see how Sony manages the thermal issues with a smaller body and only a tilt screen


A1 overheats too.
It just takes longer.
It is the same system as A7S III.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jan 29, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> there is always some delay as "instant" parallel read for each pixel doesn't exist in reality. I would need to check the patents for Canon's global shutter for how it exactly works.
> Sony have reduced their read sensor time and are getting closer to an effective global shutter.


I do not think global shutter works quite like that but I can't find detailed information about any implementation except CCD.
As far as I can tell global shutter turns the entire sensor on at once and the captured image gets pushed to local registers to be read later from the image processor. 
The exposure is more important than how the sensor is read from.


----------



## padam (Jan 29, 2021)

landon said:


> Sony bought Minolta. They're doing their best to get good products out. They don't have the capacity to make good bodies (yet), but they make up for it in software. It's small, and fits in small bag.


They fully have the capacity, it is simply about making more money by not changing the body if they already have enough users who kind of accepted the problems with a body like this and adapted to them. And people are simply attracted more to head-grabbing specs than other features.

The R5 also fits in a small bag, the practical size difference is really not that big with these cameras but moving those buttons just by a hair makes all the difference regarding how comfortably you can reach them or avoid accidental presses.


----------



## landon (Jan 29, 2021)

padam said:


> They fully have the capacity, it is simply about making more money by not changing the body if they already have enough users who kind of accepted the problems with a body like this and adapted to them. And people are simply attracted more to head-grabbing specs than other features.
> 
> The R5 also fits in a small bag, the practical size difference is really not that big with these cameras but moving those buttons just by a hair makes all the difference regarding how comfortably you can reach them or avoid accidental presses.


Regarding size. I was referring to the upcoming R1. Sony enthusiasts carry the expensive a9ii/s3/a1 in their small bag. It's hard to that with 1dxiii. So if the R1 is just a bit bigger than the R5, say equal to 5div in size. I can see Canon enthusiasts willing to fork out big bucks for it, not just pros.


----------



## mpmark (Jan 29, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> The ONLY THING that gets me going for the $6498 USD Sony A1 is the 30 fps Burst Rate at the full 3:2 still photo size image frame and the 120 fps 4K video!


It seems you got fooled as well with their 50MP x 30FPS nonsense, it’s actually not faster then a R5, its marketing garbage.
At 30FPS it can’t shoot uncompressed raw. It can only at 20fps. And mech shutter is only good up to 10fps. You want 30FPS? It has to be compressed raw or heif or jpg.

shooting uncompressed RAW
R5: 12FPS mech, 20FPS elec
A1: 10 FPS mech, 20FPS elec.

this is pretty much a R5 for $2800 more, and crappy ergonomics, no thanks! And canon hasnt even released their flagship.


----------



## Proscribo (Jan 29, 2021)

Mahk43 said:


> About fps, I think pros are not convinced with electronical shutter and will wait a R1 with a faster mechanical shutter.


Pros did fine with 1/60s* scanning shutters a long ago and now the a1 electronic shutter does full sensor scan in 1/200s* while 1DX III does it in 1/300s* with mechanical shutter, so I'd say while faster is better we have already reached the point of diminishing returns for majority of photography. Actually had Sony aimed a1 straight against 1DX and gone with a bit less resolution, the electronic shutter would probably be faster than the mechanical one in 1DX!

*Really each one is a bit faster since that is the flash sync speed i.e. whole sensor is active for a tiny fraction. 


mpmark said:


> It seems you got fooled as well with their 50MP x 30FPS nonsense, it’s actually not faster then a R5, its marketing garbage.
> At 30FPS it can’t shoot uncompressed raw. It can only at 20fps. And mech shutter is only good up to 10fps. You want 30FPS? It has to be compressed raw or heif or jpg.
> 
> shooting uncompressed RAW
> ...


If you are going there, note that the R5 shoots 12-bit in electronic shutter regardless of shooting speed, 13-bit in H+ (12fps) and full 14-bit only at 8fps max, and a1 has over 3x faster electronic shutter (about 1/60s vs 1/200s). While a1 does the 30fps with lossy compression, according to dpreview it (who say Sony has said so but who knows what is the truth) it is still 14-bit, so it looks like the 20fps would be full 14-bit lossless compressed.

PS. R5 can't shoot uncompressed, because Canon, like most sane camera manufacturers, realized ages ago that there's this neat thing called lossless compression.


----------



## padam (Jan 29, 2021)

landon said:


> Regarding size. I was referring to the upcoming R1. Sony enthusiasts carry the expensive a9ii/s3/a1 in their small bag. It's hard to that with 1dxiii. So if the R1 is just a bit bigger than the R5, say equal to 5div in size. I can see Canon enthusiasts willing to fork out big bucks for it, not just pros.


I think at least similar 20fps mechanical as the 1DX III so that would mean the same LP-E19 battery, so it's going to get bigger than an R5 with a vertical grip, and it wil have the smart-controller for both portrait and landscape orientation. They may decide to remove the two joysticks as it is not really necessary anymore.

They will leave the R5 to enthusiasts - they still have plenty of cash left to burn for the optics


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 29, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> NO! It's almost identical to what you described! Cooling tubes through the camera body! Where DID you get that idea from?
> 
> ---


I didn't get that idea from anywhere else but in my noggin'. It's just obvious to me. It's not really rocket science, anyone could have thought of it.
If you're interested, I'll send my background directly to you, if it makes any difference (it doesn't need to be here).

If you really mean what you posted, feel free to contact me directly. In the meantime, keep up your posts - whether intricate fact or fantasy (preferably both as long as they're hilarious  ) !


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 29, 2021)

Proscribo said:


> Pros did fine with 1/60s* scanning shutters a long ago and now the a1 electronic shutter does full sensor scan in 1/200s* while* 1DX III does it in 1/300s** with mechanical shutter, so I'd say while faster is better we have already reached the point of diminishing returns for majority of photography. Actually had Sony aimed a1 straight against 1DX and gone with a bit less resolution, the electronic shutter would probably be faster than the mechanical one in 1DX!
> 
> *Really each one is a bit faster since that is the flash sync speed i.e. whole sensor is active for a tiny fraction.
> 
> ...


According to Canon it is 1/250.


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 29, 2021)

Chig said:


> Well stainless steel is a very poor heat conductor .
> 
> I would suggest on a camera like the R5 and R6 just leave the magnesium body uncovered behind the flippy screen and leave the screen folded out to improve airflow when the camera's getting too hot.
> 
> With the R1 the main focus will be stills (probably maximum resolution of 30mp too) and it will have a larger body , twin processor chips and twin CF express slots so very unlikely to have any overheating issues.


I stand corrected (well, "sit corrected"). I think I said "stainless metal", but I should have said "non-corrosive heat conducting metal". Thanks for letting me know.


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 29, 2021)

Chig said:


> A square sensor would be a better option I think


I wholeheartedly agree! No more rotating for portraits! But, sadly, I don't think it will ever happen. But oh, I can dream, can't I?


----------



## StevenA (Jan 29, 2021)

While I think the Alpha 1 specs are amazing I think Sony dropped the ball with the form factor. They should have enlarged the body so that it it could house two batteries like Canon and Nikon does. I just think it might be too much to ask someone to mate that small body onto a 600mm f4 lens and hand hold it. The ergonomics would be horrible. Yes you can buy the optional battery grip to complete the system, but I think forcing professionals to do that was a bad move. But we'll see I guess.

Canon WILL develop the R1 with a built in grip as per usual of their professional level bodies and use the extra space for cooling the video.


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 29, 2021)

StevenA said:


> While I think the Alpha 1 specs are amazing I think Sony dropped the ball with the form factor. They should have enlarged the body so that it it could house two batteries like Canon and Nikon does. I just think it might be too much to ask someone to mate that small body onto a 600mm f4 lens and hand hold it. The ergonomics would be horrible. Yes you can buy the optional battery grip to complete the system, but I think forcing professionals to do that was a bad move. But we'll see I guess.
> 
> Canon WILL develop the R1 with a built in grip as per usual of their professional level bodies and use the extra space for cooling the video.


For the cost, size & weight of having an embedded bottom dual grip in every R1, imagine if Canon saved all that and instead put it towards a square sensor so that you did not have to rotate the camera anymore? They could size the square sensor to fit the existing image circle (ok, which I agree is not 100% ideal) for consumer cameras. They could also allow their top end R1 camera to take the _full size FF shot in both orientations_ by designing a 36 x 36 mm chip in place of the 36 x 24 one. Yes it would be very expensive to do this (and we all know it won't happen) but it is something that _could_ happen. You would get a better ergonomic R1 with a (probably) slightly smaller & lighter body (and more expensive initally). But imagine if they later came out with a few $$$ pro lenses to fit the larger 36 x 36 sensor image circle - That'd be awesome (and well, really expensive, but still awesome!). And some of their lenses are said to have an unusually large image circle so that they might even fit the larger image circle already!


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Jan 29, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> For the cost, size & weight of having an embedded bottom dual grip in every R1, imagine if Canon saved all that and instead put it towards a square sensor so that you did not have to rotate the camera anymore? They could size the square sensor to fit the existing image circle (ok, which I agree is not 100% ideal) for consumer cameras. They could also allow their top end R1 camera to take the _full size FF shot in both orientations_ by designing a 36 x 36 mm chip in place of the 36 x 24 one. Yes it would be very expensive to do this (and we all know it won't happen) but it is something that _could_ happen. You would get a better ergonomic R1 with a (probably) slightly smaller & lighter body (and more expensive initally). But imagine if they later came out with a few $$$ pro lenses to fit the larger 36 x 36 sensor image circle - That'd be awesome (and well, really expensive, but still awesome!). And some of their lenses are said to have an unusually large image circle so that they might even fit the larger image circle already!



A square sensor would be vastly more expensive to produce. Not only does it need more wafers to make the same number of sensors, but it would require a bigger IBIS, faster processor, re-engineered mechanical shutter, bigger square view finder....

You create all kinds of engineering problems and increase the price of the camera by many times to create something that produces a undesirable image ratio that has to be cropped in post. A flick switch on the side that just tells the IBIS system to rotate the sensor would be cheeper and faster, but even then, just go with the gripped body so you can get those lovely huge batteries in the bloody thing.


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 29, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> A square sensor would be vastly more expensive to produce. Not only does it need more wafers to make the same number of sensors, but it would require a bigger IBIS, faster processor, re-engineered mechanical shutter, bigger square view finder....
> 
> You create all kinds of engineering problems and increase the price of the camera by many times to create something that produces a undesirable image ratio that has to be cropped in post. A flick switch on the side that just tells the IBIS system to rotate the sensor would be cheeper and faster, but even then, just go with the gripped body so you can get those lovely huge batteries in the bloody thing.


Well, I did say it would be much more expensive, and that I don't see anyone doing it.

If you think that a mechanical rotation of the normal IBIS sensor would be cheaper than what I suggested, you may be right. Maybe it's something they should considered (or even has been considered by them and quickly shot down). Either way, it's something to talk about but I don't see anyone doing either of them (unfortunately).

Cheers!


----------



## masterpix (Jan 29, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


45-50MP sensor, quad pixel AF (eye, animal, birds, AI tracking), global shutter, 20-30 FPS. That is enough.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 29, 2021)

Chig said:


> Doesn't seem necessary , especially as the R1 is probably stills focused (R5 doesn't overheat with stills) and will have 2 processors and 2 CF express slots like 1DXiii and large body . I think it will have any overheating issues at all.
> 
> Also stainless steel is a very poor heat conductor compared with aluminium , copper or even magnesium which would make much effective heatsinks.
> 
> Even just leaving the rear of the magnesium body exposed (behind the flippy screen) would help heat dissipation enormously but again unnecessary I think



--

The poor Heat Transfer of high-corrosion resistant Stainless Steel (i.e. 360L series) IS THE WHOLE POINT!

It's NOT supposed to transfer heat WELL but rather at a highly-specific thermodynamically-modeled rate of X-number of Joules per Second!

You need a specific GRADE of stainless steel for its STRENGTH and its Anti-corrosion ability in order for it to be used as a great base-plate mount material AND that it allows the transfer of heat at a WELL-REGULATED rate. 

It is INSIDE the camera where magnesium, aluminum and copper blocks will be used to initially ABSORB HEAT and a heat pipe will TRANSFER that heat out to a slower acting ceramic or composite heat sink block and outwards to atmosphere via a metallic plate or finned metal style of heat dissipation system. Look at modern desktop computer GPU graphics cards and their array of heat sinks/heat pipes for inspiration as to what is NEEDED to cool the 300+ watts being used by high end graphics cards!

The Canon R5 is only doing 20 to 40 watts max! So I am pretty sure that they can figure out HOW to use the SAME type of technology in order to move the heat away from the camera easy enough!

V


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 29, 2021)

mpmark said:


> It seems you got fooled as well with their 50MP x 30FPS nonsense, it’s actually not faster then a R5, its marketing garbage.
> At 30FPS it can’t shoot uncompressed raw. It can only at 20fps. And mech shutter is only good up to 10fps. You want 30FPS? It has to be compressed raw or heif or jpg.
> 
> shooting uncompressed RAW
> ...




RAW is a misnomer! It's almost ALWAYS RLE (Run-Length Encoded) and using a WinZIP-like lossless LZW compression algorithm to get you ABOUT 2:1 compression. And whenever you see 2:1, 3:1, 4:1 or 5:1 RAW as the output file format, it usually means they are throwing away or moving X-number of low-order bits on every 2nd or 3rd pixel sample or at pixels with similar luminance values and THEN RLE/LZW compressing that bitmap to get a form of compressed RAW which is actually kinda like printer-based "dithering" and "error diffusion" but used in a compression-specific manner rather than for display.

V


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 29, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> I didn't get that idea from anywhere else but in my noggin'. It's just obvious to me. It's not really rocket science, anyone could have thought of it.
> If you're interested, I'll send my background directly to you, if it makes any difference (it doesn't need to be here).
> 
> If you really mean what you posted, feel free to contact me directly. In the meantime, keep up your posts - whether intricate fact or fantasy (preferably both as long as they're hilarious  ) !



Sometime next week is the BIG REVEAL for the sensor tech we will be OPEN SOURCING !!!!! aka IT'S FREE !!!!! Keep looking all week and gasp with PURE AWE at what is disclosed and exposed!


V

....and it ain't my naked butt!

V


----------



## Chig (Jan 29, 2021)

Interesting statement : "Yesterday Sony set the gear world ablaze with the Sony Alpha a1, their new flagship full-frame mirrorless camera."

Really ?

The Alpha 1 is priced like the 1D series and has similar specs to the much cheaper R5 but with typical woeful Sony ergonomics , rubbish UI and prosumer build quality but better dynamic range than Canon's cameras so far.
Sony's A9ii is much closer to the 1D series with fantastic AF , Dynamic range , etc (but still with bad ergonomics and UI) but more competitive pricing. A new A9iii would be Sony's pro flagship if they make one.
The new Canon professional flagship R1 is likely to have :

similar or a bit higher pricing to 1DXiii
sensible resolution of about 20-24mp (pros don't need or want huge mp to cripple their workflow)
a mainly stills focus but with decent video
similar form factor and build quality to 1D series but a bit lighter
20+ fps mechanical shutter
25-30 fps electronic shutter
maybe global shutter but I doubt it
faster new twin processors than the 1DXiii
clever new software based features - perhaps in camera focus stacking for example
hopefully better dynamic range
maybe a square sensor but unlikely


----------



## Chig (Jan 29, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> --
> 
> The poor Heat Transfer of high-corrosion resistant Stainless Steel (i.e. 360L series) IS THE WHOLE POINT!
> 
> ...


You clearly don't understand this as slowing the heat transfer has no benefits and would mean the surface will be excessively hot and the internals will get hotter too


----------



## SteveC (Jan 29, 2021)

Chig said:


> You clearly don't understand this as slowing the heat transfer has no benefits and would mean the surface will be excessively hot and the internals will get hotter too



He talks about a lot of things he doesn't understand.


----------



## VegasCameraGuy (Jan 29, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> So I can tell you right now, as much as I want a massive resolution increase over the current 1DXIII, it will prevent many photographers from buying it. Unless Canon comes out with a better alternative to cRAW and allows us to shoot in smaller, more preferred resolutions, I and many others will struggle to justify making this our $6,000+ camera in the bag.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


I struggle to understand these arguments about file size. A 128 Gb CFx card will hold about 2,800 RAWs and the cost of hard drives goes down every day. The one time you need to crop in and save a picture is worth it. You don't take an Instamatic to a wedding because you seldom need high resolution but you take a high-end camera because it minimizes the number of times you have to say I'm sorry that your first kiss was fuzzy because I lost track of time and was in the back of the church when it happened! The reason professional photographers buy the best is that you prepare for every eventuality that you can so if your 45Mp sensor saves your behind once, it's worth it and all the wasted file space is forgotten.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 29, 2021)

SteveC said:


> He talks about a lot of things he doesn't understand.




You use the thermodynamic abilities of modern CAD/CAM/FEA modeling software (i.e. CATIA thermodynamic modules and others) to allow one to plan the ENTIRE heat transfer path from chip to air.

While i personally AM --NOT-- A LICENCED PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER, our OTHER employees ARE!

I think I would trust the expertise of a number of MSc.EE's and P.E. (Civ and Mech) who have literally a combined 1000+ man-years of engineering experience over what is said here on CanonRumors about what can or cannot be done engineering-wise! These guys actually ARE ROCKET SCIENTISTS !!! They build spaceships for a living! They KNOW thermodynamics like the back of their hands!

Metals and composites with DISSIMILAR thermodynamic profiles are combined and used to plot and build a specific heat transfer path through a mechanical part. If THEY say it can be done, THEN IT CAN BE DONE !!!

PERIOD !!!! NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS ABOUT IT!!!

The proof of their ACTUAL REAL WORLD EXPERTISE is the various systems in high and low orbit RIGHT THIS SECOND that work 24/7/365 in the most HARSH environment possible! --- SPACE!

Soooooo, if 360L series Stainless Steel can be used as a thermal throttle then it will be used as one and if Copper and ceramic glass heat sinks, vapour-filled heat pipes and carbon-composite tile insulator can be used to create a long-duration heat sink THEN IT WILL BE !!!!

Ergo, the egghead scientists KNOW MUCH MORE THAN ME AND YOU !!!

Sooooo, I will take THEIR WORD for it as what can and cannot be done thermodyamically!

V

V


----------



## raptor3x (Jan 29, 2021)

Chig said:


> The new Canon professional flagship R1 is likely to have :



If they could add in a blackout free EVF during burst and then integrate that with a pre-shot buffering mode like the M6ii and some Olympus/Fuji bodies that's a pretty significant advantage over the A1 for sports and wildlife.


----------



## raptor3x (Jan 29, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> Ergo, the egghead scientists KNOW MUCH MORE THAN ME AND YOU !!!
> 
> Sooooo, I will take THEIR WORD for it as what can and cannot be done thermodyamically



I'm an aerothermal engineer in the turbomachinery industry. I'm sure your co-workers understand what they're talking about but I suspect you may have misremembered what they told you. 



Alan Greenspan said:


> I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 30, 2021)

raptor3x said:


> I'm an aerothermal engineer in the turbomachinery industry. I'm sure your co-workers understand what they're talking about but I suspect you may have misremembered what they told you.



---

I am assuming you design/engineer impellers, rotors, intakes, exhaust systems and manifolds, etc for automotive and/or aerospace applications, SOOOOOOOOO, you probably get what a high-level engineer can do.

AND NO! I have not misremembered what they said. They just do things that are unique to the space industry dealing with an environment that is the harshest around.

I kind of now know WHY they are using dissimilar compounds to throttle/expand a thermal path and i ALSO KNOW that what they do has applications in consumer electronics. (i.e. which they have demonstrated via the building of a 16K camera body!)

The key with using a POOR thermal conductor is similar to using valves in piping. You are throttling thermal throughput in specific ways to ensure waste heat gets stored and/or moved around via a specific pathway at specific times using a passive means of heat movement regulation.

That's why CATIA with all its great modeling modules is a $250,000+ package! It makes the engineer's life so much easier to QUICKLY design and model ways to move heat, cold, water, oil, gas and WHATEVER ELSE needs to be "piped around" to specific locations to be either used-up or expelled !!!

Ergo! Try 360L Stainless Steel! They use it in cookware like frying pans along with aluminum and/or copper plates embedded within!

Nice cookware!




__





MAGMA A10-360L-CB / Magma Nestable 10 Piece Stainless Steel Cookware - Cobalt Blue : Amazon.ca: Electronics


MAGMA A10-360L-CB / Magma Nestable 10 Piece Stainless Steel Cookware - Cobalt Blue : Amazon.ca: Electronics



www.amazon.ca





THAT is a good example of thermal regulation design and engineering!

Use that stainless steel grade in camera mount base plates for anti-corrosion AND as a well-regulated thermal storage and output system and JUST MAYBE the Canon R1 will be able to do 60 fps burst rate 64-bit RGBA stills AND 60 fps DCI 8K video!

V


----------



## Chig (Jan 30, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> You use the thermodynamic abilities of modern CAD/CAM/FEA modeling software (i.e. CATIA thermodynamic modules and others) to allow one to plan the ENTIRE heat transfer path from chip to air.
> 
> While i personally AM --NOT-- A LICENCED PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER, our OTHER employees ARE!
> 
> ...


Well Harry , I have studied engineering and I don't think you understand heat flow or materials well enough to give any informed or useful comments.


----------



## Chig (Jan 30, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> For the cost, size & weight of having an embedded bottom dual grip in every R1, imagine if Canon saved all that and instead put it towards a square sensor so that you did not have to rotate the camera anymore? They could size the square sensor to fit the existing image circle (ok, which I agree is not 100% ideal) for consumer cameras. They could also allow their top end R1 camera to take the _full size FF shot in both orientations_ by designing a 36 x 36 mm chip in place of the 36 x 24 one. Yes it would be very expensive to do this (and we all know it won't happen) but it is something that _could_ happen. You would get a better ergonomic R1 with a (probably) slightly smaller & lighter body (and more expensive initally). But imagine if they later came out with a few $$$ pro lenses to fit the larger 36 x 36 sensor image circle - That'd be awesome (and well, really expensive, but still awesome!). And some of their lenses are said to have an unusually large image circle so that they might even fit the larger image circle already!


What about a circular sensor so could crop any angle ?
Diameter would be about 40mm.
Quite often I realise I was not holding the camera quite level or just wished I could rotate to a particular angle
Crop any square or rectangular shape or just use a circular image if you want ?
More artistic freedom and no need to ever worry about rotating the camera for landscape/portrait
Would need Quad pixel auto focusing of course to work best


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 30, 2021)

Chig said:


> What about a circular sensor so could crop any angle ?
> Crop any square or rectangular shape or just use a circular image if you want ?


Sure, why not? I'd be happy to buy it and capture every last pixel out of the lens.
Hey, they could pack them in a hexagon pattern to increase the number of chips per wafer - which would be needed since they'd get far fewer than the conventional 36x24 layout.

Of course, since none of this will ever really happen, why not have a circular sensor?
Right about now, I'm sure HarryFilm might jump in and show us all how they've already got it done and are giving their big reveal next week!


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 30, 2021)

Chig said:


> Well Harry , I have studied engineering and I don't think you understand heat flow or materials well enough to give any informed or useful comments.




--- I AM ----NOT---- A PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER --- !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ergo, it's my opinion and it can be as crappy, illogical and wrong as I want it to be ..... i.e. You're THE Engineer! YOU fix it!

I'll go have my double mocha and let the eggheads work it all out! As the saying goes .... IT AIN'T MY PROBLEM!

I'm just the graphics programmer!


  ;-) ;-)


----------



## Chig (Jan 30, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> Sure, why not? I'd be happy to buy it and capture every last pixel out of the lens.
> Hey, they could pack them in a hexagon pattern to increase the number of chips per wafer - which would be needed since they'd get far fewer than the conventional 36x24 layout.
> 
> Of course, since none of this will ever really happen, why not have a circular sensor?
> Right about now, I'm sure HarryFilm might jump in and show us all how they've already got it done and are giving their big reveal next week!


Yes a slightly oversize hexagon wafer would probably be easier to manufacture with HexaPixelAutoFocus for 3 axis focusing of course .
In effect the image would still be circular to match the lens image circle to the pixels would only be in the circular active part with blank wafer outside this 
Can you imagine the nerd envy of Sony fanboys if Canon made this especially with Hexa Pixel Auto Focus !
Perhaps I can patent it ?
I'd rather Canon just built it though and owed me a beer !


----------



## Chig (Jan 30, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> --- I AM ----NOT---- A PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER --- !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Ergo, it's my opinion and it can be as crappy, illogical and wrong as I want it to be ..... i.e. You're THE Engineer! YOU fix it!
> 
> ...


All good Harry and my head is very pointy !


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 30, 2021)

Chig said:


> Yes a slightly oversize hexagon wafer would probably easier to manufacture with HexaPixelAutoFocus for 3 axis focusing of course .
> In effect the image would still be circular to match the lens image circle to the pixels would only be in the circular active part with blank wafer outside this


Wow - If one dimensional Dual AF is good, and two dimensional Quad AF is better, why not 3 dimensional Octa-Pixel AF? !!!
That's it!!!
Why didn't I think of it?!!!

Hey Harry, you got this all covered in next week's announcement, right?


----------



## Chig (Jan 30, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> Wow - If one dimensional Dual AF is good, and two dimensional Quad AF is better, why not 3 dimensional Octa-Pixel AF? !!!
> That's it!!!
> Why didn't I think of it?!!!
> 
> Hey Harry, you got this all covered in next week's announcement, right?


Hope Canon Engineers read this site 
Maybe 4 dimensional time shifting auto focus or is that too much ?


----------



## wickedac (Jan 30, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> This is something many of us identify as a shortcoming of the R5 and it's rather upsetting. I hope that Canon reconsiders the importance of cRAW and can bring back an mRAW format that keeps things in the 12-15 and 20-26mp sweet spots. The argument of always shooting at the maximum resolution isn't exactly true for all of us. When I cover events I can shoot thousands of images a day for 3-4 days at a time and have to turn those around same day...and I still want the benefits of RAW, just not the resolution or file size. Yes, cRAW is roughly the size of a standard 20mp RAW out of the R6, but those images do NOT process easily in software like 20mp, as it chugs along to read the 45mp file format, versus blazing through a normal CR2/CR3 RAW...not sure why, but please give us back smaller RAW.



I am so with you on this - I couldn't believe it when I found out the R5 didn't have s/mRAW. That huge resolution and no option for lower res? Every camera I've had since my 40D has had sRAW. NOW they drop it, when they come out with a 45MP cam? Makes zero sense.

It's FIRMWARE. Just give me the OPTION!


----------



## Chig (Jan 30, 2021)

wickedac said:


> I am so with you on this - I couldn't believe it when I found out the R5 didn't have s/mRAW. That huge resolution and no option for lower res? Every camera I've had since my 40D has had sRAW. NOW they drop it, when they come out with a 45MP cam? Makes zero sense.
> 
> It's FIRMWARE. Just give me the OPTION!
> [/QUOTEH
> ...


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jan 30, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> For the cost, size & weight of having an embedded bottom dual grip in every R1, imagine if Canon saved all that and instead put it towards a square sensor so that you did not have to rotate the camera anymore? They could size the square sensor to fit the existing image circle (ok, which I agree is not 100% ideal) for consumer cameras. They could also allow their top end R1 camera to take the _full size FF shot in both orientations_ by designing a 36 x 36 mm chip in place of the 36 x 24 one. Yes it would be very expensive to do this (and we all know it won't happen) but it is something that _could_ happen. You would get a better ergonomic R1 with a (probably) slightly smaller & lighter body (and more expensive initally). But imagine if they later came out with a few $$$ pro lenses to fit the larger 36 x 36 sensor image circle - That'd be awesome (and well, really expensive, but still awesome!). And some of their lenses are said to have an unusually large image circle so that they might even fit the larger image circle already!


A 36x36 sensor would require a larger mount. So cannot and willnot happen on an RF body.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 30, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> The only reason the A1 made me happy is that I think it definitely speeds up the timeline on the R1, no matter if it's a rough year for sports.
> 
> I'll admit, I would be slightly disappointed if the R1 is higher than 40 megapixels. I already have 45 megapixels on my R5, so I would far prefer 60-120 FPS still photographs at 30 megapixels than 30 FPS stills at 50 megapixels. That said, if the market is truly changing so drastically in this way(24 megapixels has not caused any issue on the 1D or A9), I guess I would appreciate both of my cameras being similar in resolution like the 5D3 and 1DX2 were.
> 
> ...



I'm not quite sure why this would matter much IMO. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't one simply adjust the resolution (file size) in the settings as per their use case? That should impact FPS, shouldn't it? Especially if FPS is affected by how fast the data can be written to the SD cards. 

Personally I would love to have the higher resolutions as I do intend to print large. However, I would reduce the file size as necessary if speed was a necessity, and if the default FPS for the highest resolution was too slow for my needs. 

If the FPS is fixed then I guess I have to agree that it is disappointing to have the slower FPS - but I don't have any issues with the higher resolution as that should be adjustable in the settings.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 30, 2021)

SteveC said:


> Yep, I can confirm that if someone writes the forbidden D word it gets changed to "Canon the best."



Ha-ha, yup, I don't care for the video


HarryFilm said:


> AND please ALSO NOTE Fuji's introduction of the GFX-100s camera for $5999 USD which offers a full 100 megapixel MF sensor!
> 
> See review:
> 
> ...



I'm really excited about the GFX-100s as well! I'm happy to see the prices are starting to go down, although it is still a bit too rich for my blood. 

As someone who uses both analog and digital, I've been waiting for medium format to become more affordable. This is a positive step in that direction. 

I don't care much for the video capabilities as I'm primarily into stills, but the R5 specs (even with the overheating limitations) are very impressive. I can't wait to know what the supposed R1 and R5S will compare with specs and price (if those are even going to be the model names).


----------



## mpmark (Jan 30, 2021)

[/QUOTE]


HarryFilm said:


> RAW is a misnomer! It's almost ALWAYS RLE (Run-Length Encoded) and using a WinZIP-like lossless LZW compression algorithm to get you ABOUT 2:1 compression. And whenever you see 2:1, 3:1, 4:1 or 5:1 RAW as the output file format, it usually means they are throwing away or moving X-number of low-order bits on every 2nd or 3rd pixel sample or at pixels with similar luminance values and THEN RLE/LZW compressing that bitmap to get a form of compressed RAW which is actually kinda like printer-based "dithering" and "error diffusion" but used in a compression-specific manner rather than for display.
> 
> V



First off, google translate can’t figure out what language this was written in so my apologies I’m unable to respond.

Second, you seem to be missing my point, explain how this camera is worth dishing out another $2800? If you ask me, Sony just made the R5 a bargain.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 30, 2021)

mpmark said:


> First off, google translate can’t figure out what language this was written in so my apologies I’m unable to respond.
> 
> Second, you seem to be missing my point, explain how this camera is worth dishing out another $2800? If you ask me, Sony just made the R5 a bargain.




I was trying to say the RAW image data isn't really RAW at all and all that image data may NOT be truly uncompressed ULTRA HIGH QUALITY stills or video but rather have some data missing which may be an issue for people who want ONLY the best image quality possible. Basically, they ain't getting what they paid for when it says 3:1 or 5:1 RAW!

--

And right now YES I do agree that Sony made the Canon R5 a bargain as you get nearly the same still/video features AND you get Hollywood production friendly TRUE DCI 8K video at such a low price that there is enough money left over between the differences in prices that you could (i.e. SHOULD!) get the Canon R5 and the BEST f/1.2mm Lens for Astrophotography and night-time Street Photography ever created!

Canon RF 50mm f/1.2L USM Lens: ($2299 USD)








Canon RF 50mm f/1.2L USM Lens


Buy Canon RF 50mm f/1.2L USM Lens featuring RF-Mount Lens/Full-Frame Format, Aperture Range: f/1.2 to f/16, One UD Element, One Aspherical Element, Ring-Type Ultrasonic Motor AF System, Customizable Control Ring, Rounded 10-Blade Diaphragm. Review Canon null




www.bhphotovideo.com





Now you have your pro-level Camera + BEST LENS EVER! powerhouse photo combo!

V


----------



## scyrene (Jan 30, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> 8K on a _FF sensor _requires around 8192 x 5461 min. sensor, or 44.7MP. With IBIS I could see this approaching 50MP. With a quad pixel technology per pixel it will take so much detail that I don't really think it will happen, but it might.
> 6K on a _FF sensor_ requires around 6144 x 4096 min. sensor, or 25.2 MP. With IBIS I could see this more like 28-30MP. I could _definitely_ see this happening with quad pixels.



Why would the presence or absence of IBIS make any difference to the resolution?


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 30, 2021)

scyrene said:


> Why would the presence or absence of IBIS make any difference to the resolution?


I think I read that because of the possible drift of the user pointing the lens, they have to match the drift up to a point they can't continue, and then reposition it and repeat, and having extra pixels beyond the normal required gave them the ability to do this without having the corners go towards black. But the more I think about this, the less I'm sure it makes sense (yes, sometimes that happens to me!  ). So if you see any documentation on this, I would (sincerely) like to see what they say.


----------



## raptor3x (Jan 30, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> I kind of now know WHY they are using dissimilar compounds to throttle/expand a thermal path and i ALSO KNOW that what they do has applications in consumer electronics. (i.e. which they have demonstrated via the building of a 16K camera body!)
> 
> The key with using a POOR thermal conductor is similar to using valves in piping. You are throttling thermal throughput in specific ways to ensure waste heat gets stored and/or moved around via a specific pathway at specific times using a passive means of heat movement regulation.



You can certainly use thermal conduction paths to keep heat away from certain areas; for example, you wouldn't want to build a high conductance pathway from the processor directly to the handgrip but there's no reason you wouldn't want the best possible heat conduction path from your source (processor) to your desired sink (generally the chassis). Stainless steel is most likely used for tripod plates simply because of it's mechanical properties and manufacturing cost, not specifically for its thermal properties.

Outside of exotic applications like electronics that are expected to function in extremely cold environments (say for satellites and probes), cost saving measures, or product differentiation you don't want to restrict heat flow for electronics. In consumer products, thermal design is generally pretty far down the list of priorities in general. In your cooking pot example, for instance, the reason they use stainless steel, or aluminum, has nothing to do with thermal design and everything to do with keeping costs down and non-reactivity. Copper and cast iron cookware have much better thermal characteristics, which manifest as a more even cooking surface, but tend to require more maintenance. Most copper pots, for instance, have a thin stainless steel layer bonding onto the actual cooking surface to try and get the best of both worlds but those pots tend to be quite expensive. I know there are full copper pots on the market but all the ones I've seen very clearly warn not to use them for general cooking and only for things like melting sugar, if you cook anything acidic you can quickly destroy the cookware.



HarryFilm said:


> It is INSIDE the camera where magnesium, aluminum and copper blocks will be used to initially ABSORB HEAT and a heat pipe will TRANSFER that heat out* to a slower acting ceramic or composite heat sink block* and outwards to atmosphere via a metallic plate or finned metal style of heat dissipation system. Look at modern desktop computer GPU graphics cards and their array of heat sinks/heat pipes for inspiration as to what is NEEDED to cool the 300+ watts being used by high end graphics cards!



Most of what you wrote here is fine, it's just the bolded portion that is generally incorrect. There are situations where your heat sink may have poor thermal conductivity, but that's usually because the sink works via phase change. I did the early turbomachinery design for the now defunct Google X's Project Malta where they were using molten salt as a thermal battery for storing solar energy. That's a pretty different scenario from what you see in consumer electronics though. In astro applications, you can indeed see scenarios where you want to very precisely tune heat transfer rates radiated out of the system and I'm guessing that's probably what you're thinking about but that also bears little resemblance to consumer electronics.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 30, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> I think I read that because of the possible drift of the user pointing the lens, they have to match the drift up to a point they can't continue, and then reposition it and repeat, and having extra pixels beyond the normal required gave them the ability to do this without having the corners go towards black. But the more I think about this, the less I'm sure it makes sense (yes, sometimes that happens to me!  ). So if you see any documentation on this, I would (sincerely) like to see what they say.




Technically, you COULD use IBIS as a form of pixel-shift using the PRECISE TIMING of the peizo-electric 3D-XYZ sensor movement system to take RGB readouts during half-pixel shifts in the CMOS sensor position and use fancy software to create a best-guess set of RGB pixel values during each IBIS up-down/left-right movement that could increase resolution to as much as 4x the actual sensor pixel count.

This means your 8192 by 4320 video file could be turned into beautiful-looking DCI 16K resolution imagery at 16,384 by 8640 pixels without having to do too much work. So NOW with a bit of firmware update trickery, your Canon R5 is now a 140+ Megapixel Medium Format monster!

The faster the IBIS motors are, the more one-half pixel shift or even one-third pixel shift RGB readouts could be done with merely a FIRMWARE UPDATE to the CURRENT MODELS of the Canon R5 or the 1Dx mk3 camera!


V


----------



## raptor3x (Jan 30, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> --- I AM ----NOT---- A PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER --- !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Ergo, it's my opinion and it can be as crappy, illogical and wrong as I want it to be ..... i.e. You're THE Engineer! YOU fix it!
> 
> ...



It never ceases to amaze me how much time and effort it takes to build GUI interfaces; it's so simple conceptually but the actual implementation is very laborious.


----------



## Neutral (Jan 30, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> Technically, you COULD use IBIS as a form of pixel-shift using the PRECISE TIMING of the peizo-electric 3D-XYZ sensor movement system to take RGB readouts during half-pixel shifts in the CMOS sensor position and use fancy software to create a best-guess set of RGB pixel values during each IBIS up-down/left-right movement that could increase resolution to as much as 4x the actual sensor pixel count.
> 
> This means your 8192 by 4320 video file could be turned into beautiful-looking DCI 16K resolution imagery at 16,384 by 8640 pixels without having to do to much work. So NOW with a bit of firmware update trickery, your Canon R5 is now a 140+ Megapixel Medium Format monster!
> 
> ...



It might look nice at first glance but there are some laws of physics which is difficult to overcome - mass of sensor to move, inertia and what amplitude of force pulse should be applied to move sensor in requred position in required slice of time.
Applying strong and very short pulse of force to piece of glass ( sensor) could damage it (create cracks) or create volume ultrasonic waves instead of moving it. This is why pixel shift could not be done too fast which could be ideal for handheld shooting using pixel shift mode.
By the way ultrasonic sensor cleaning is done by creating utrasonic waves on the surface of the sensor by special patterned electrodes drive on one side of the sensor surface.
But on sensor with fast global shutter or extremely fast sensor readout pixel shift could be done without even moving sensor at all.
Take four shots quickly and combine them using camera firmware - just put each image on top of other with one pixel shift in each direction and do required merging. You just will lose one line of pixels at each side of the sensor. This also could be done in external software. I do not know why Sony did not do this in latest Sony A1, this is also applicable for night/low light mode - just multishot without pixel shift - the same as done in Canon 1DX, 1DXm2 and 1DXm3 though not fast and requiring tripod - I had article for this here many years back.
As for a low light mode Sony has nice feature which it holds possibly as there was not enough competition on the market. This is available on A9 sensor but not used - low noise mode for low light. I always wished that they enable this via some firmware update if it is not hardware dependant. With processing power in A1 and future Canon R1 a lot of computational things could be done inside the camera - similar to what is done in smarphones.


----------



## wickedac (Jan 30, 2021)

HEIF is not raw. It's more like a mega-jpeg.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 30, 2021)

Neutral said:


> It might look nice at first glance but there are some laws of physics which is difficult to overcome - mass of sensor to move, inertia and what amplitude of force pulse should be applied to move sensor in requred position in required slice of time.
> Applying strong and very short pulse of force to piece of glass ( sensor) could damage it (create cracks) or create volume ultrasonic waves instead of moving it. This is why pixel shift could not be done too fast which could be ideal for handheld shooting using pixel shift mode.
> By the way ultrasonic sensor cleaning is done by creating utrasonic waves on the surface of the sensor by special patterned electrodes drive on one side of the sensor surface.
> But on sensor with fast global shutter or extremely fast sensor readout pixel shift could be done without even moving sensor at all.
> ...



===

I think I may not have made myself very clear.

The IBIS is ALREADY moving the sensor left/right and up/down in its duty to STABILIZE images.

The CPU/DSP just needs to RESCHEDULE (i.e. via a hard interrupt call) the pixel readouts so that one set of Still Photo frame readouts occurs at 1/20th of a second and the second set occurs at 2/20ths of a second and then combines the two images which would contain TIME-based differences in 2D-XY and 3D-XYZ movement that could then be interpolated to create a "Virtual Pixel Shift" that is considered a 1/10th of a second frame when the odd/even frames are combined together (i.e. stacked together and virtually pixel-shifted!)

Basically, you are sub-dividing your frames-per-second still photo or video capture rate into TWO segments. The first frame (i.e. odd numbered frame) and the second frame (i.e. even numbered frame) gets combined together as a stacked photo with ONE MAJOR DIFFERENCE!

In this method, the IBIS movement is taken into account so we can determine the amount of TIME that has elapsed per each frame capture so we can then create a TIME difference map that tells us where an IN-BETWEEN PIXEL SHIFT should have occurred in the real world. That time difference is translated into interpolated RGB pixel luminance and colour values that are HIGHLY ACCURATE because we take into account both TIME and the 2D/3D movement of the IBIS in order to create new "Virtual In-Between Pixels" that represent what a real pixel-shift SHOULD BE in terms of brightness and colour!

For the 20 fps Burst rate of the Canon R5, the even and odd frames have a SMALL time difference which can be measured as 1/20th of a second. By combining the first and second frames and interpolating the IBIS movement on the X, Y and Z axis, you could create a set of internal software rules that says for this set of two Burst Rate Still Photo Frames, the IBIS moved X, Y and Z-number of Microns on each axis which can be divided up into a set of HALF-PIXEL, ONE-THIRD-PIXEL or even ONE QUARTER PIXEL SHIFTS which can then be interpolated to create IN-BETWEEN RGB pixels that would be converted to incredibly accurate percentage-based differences in luminance and colour for each output pixel.

While this method does turn your 20 fps camera into a 10 fps camera, you can create at least TWICE the pixel resolution on each axis for at least FOUR TIMES the pixels count which means the R5 becomes a 180 megapixel medium format monster of a stills camera!

The IBIS is already moving. We don't have to change anything! We just need to TIME the pixel readouts with precision and then measure the AMOUNT of movement on each IBIS axis so we can create a PROPER interpolation equation for each in-between pixel of our virtually pixel-shifted photo!

You usually do this interpolation as a division by 2, by 3 or by 4 to get you one, two or three interpolated pixels that represent 2x, 3x and even 4x pixel resolution increases on the horizontal and vertical axis of your camera's image output!

This type of virtual pixel shift works only on cameras WITH IBIS and that means the Canon R5 which means it's very likely just a simple firmware update to make it all work!

V


----------



## Chig (Jan 30, 2021)

Aussie shooter said:


> A 36x36 sensor would require a larger mount. So cannot and willnot happen on an RF body.


Why would it need a larger mount ? Even if it did then just make the square sensor slightly smaller to match the image circle or better still a round sensor of exactly the same size as the image circle .


----------



## Sporgon (Jan 30, 2021)

HarryFilm said:


> This type of virtual pixel shift works only on cameras WITH IBIS and that means the Canon R5 and 1Dx3 which means it's very likely just a simple firmware update to make it all work!
> 
> V



Steady on Harry, you're really getting carried away now........unless you know something about the 1DXIII we don't


----------



## Chig (Jan 30, 2021)

dolina said:


> R1 will exceed the tech specs of A1 and be in stock at BH within 12 months.
> 
> Canon will offer a (free?) program to modify Series III EF 400mm and 600mm lens to RF mount.


Why modify them when they work perfectly with the adapter and Canon will soon release RF versions anyway ?


----------



## navastronia (Jan 30, 2021)

I just came in here to say that the A1 isn't very much camera for your money and that without a vertical grip and heavy duty build, it's not competing with a future R1 at all, and is instead an overpriced (albeit high-spec'd) R5 competitor.

IDK who Sony is fooling, but the A1 isn't a sports camera and shouldn't be priced like one.


----------



## Chig (Jan 30, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Be nice if Canon use a stacked sensor to match Sony's dynamic range which is only aspect where they lag behind Sony , hopefully with sensible 20-24 mp size for the R1 - the sports pros don't want massive files to slow down their workflow.

Would love them to start using round sensors to match RF lenses image circle so you can crop portrait/landscape/square at any angle in post instead of fussing around turning your camera around .
Need to have a circular evf too of course , just seems more natural like our own eyes , after all the rectangular shape is a relict from the days of film so time to move on

Tilting evf would be cool too , especially for holding the camera down low for ground level shots

Another cool feature would be a red dot sight mounted on the camera aligned with your left eye to make aiming long telephoto lenses easier , I have one mounted on each of my long lenses which is extremely handy.

An option of automatic exposure compensation based on the target's colouring. For example if you're shooting a light coloured object like a white bird the camera could automatically compensate to avoid blowing out the highlights and vice versa for a dark object . I'm often shooting light coloured sea birds when a dark bird suddenly appears and it takes time to adjust the exposure compensation. I can see Canon using an A.I. program for this similar to their animal eye af system


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 30, 2021)

degos said:


> Yes 30/32MP would be nice. Contrary to much opinion on this site, most 1D aren't used blasting away at sports events. All my town's newspaper photographers use them because they're burstproof, shrug off the rain and and have a familiar UI. They don't need 14fps for the Mayor opening a new garden centre but it doesn't hurt to have it to hand.
> 
> Sure they could probably make do using a 5D4 but if your salary depends on your photos, why take a risk? A 1D shoots and shoots and focuses like the pro it is.


They don't need 20mp for newspaper, magazine or news site output either, 30/32MP would be counter intuitive for that market.

The last image I sold to a printed paper used a 280kb thumbnail as a 4 column header and the IQ was up to their printing. I certainly didn't need to have taken that with a 4mp 1D.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jan 31, 2021)

Sporgon said:


> Steady on Harry, you're really getting carried away now........unless you know something about the 1DXIII we don't




I fixed that IBIS statement.... it was a mental wish list my fingers typed out.

v


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jan 31, 2021)

Chig said:


> Why would it need a larger mount ? Even if it did then just make the square sensor slightly smaller to match the image circle or better still a round sensor of exactly the same size as the image circle .


Because you can only fit 36 wide when the senor is 24 high. If it is 36 high you could only fit 24 wide. Yes. You could probably go something like a 30x30 with the current mount


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 31, 2021)

Aussie shooter said:


> Because you can only fit 36 wide when the senor is 24 high. If it is 36 high you could only fit 24 wide. Yes. You could probably go something like a 30x30 with the current mount


Since you said 24 wide by 36 tall was OK, then my point (way up there somewhere) was to have a 36 x 36 sensor so that you could get a 36x24 or 24x36 out of it (without rotating for portaits), and anything inbetween on the 36x36 would be gravy. I'd certainly jump for joy to have that sensor in my camera!

Of course, Canon will never make this, so we're all just havin' fun talking about it.


----------



## Film Runner (Jan 31, 2021)

(me, sitting in the back quietly, still pretty happy with my EOS R)


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jan 31, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> Since you said 24 wide by 36 tall was OK, then my point (way up there somewhere) was to have a 36 x 36 sensor so that you could get a 36x24 or 24x36 out of it (without rotating for portaits), and anything inbetween on the 36x36 would be gravy. I'd certainly jump for joy to have that sensor in my camera!
> 
> Of course, Canon will never make this, so we're all just havin' fun talking about it.


Ah. Ok. I thought you wanted 36x36 all usable. My mistake.


----------



## Chig (Jan 31, 2021)

Aussie shooter said:


> Because you can only fit 36 wide when the senor is 24 high. If it is 36 high you could only fit 24 wide. Yes. You could probably go something like a 30x30 with the current mount


Yes , you're right I just worked it out with a ruler and a compass .

Current image circle is about 43mm diameter to fit 24x36 sensor and it would also fit a 30x30 sensor

A 36 x36mm square sensor would give you 24x36 in either vertical or horizontal orientation or a 30x30 image but some of the sensor would be outside the 43mm diameter image circle.

But a 43mm diameter _round sensor _would be even better giving you 30x30 square or 24x36 at any angle and also 43mm circular image and the areas of these would be 864 mm for the 24x36 (same as current) , 900mm for the 30x30mm square and 1452mm for the 43mm diameter circular image (although a circular finished image would be a bit niche but I think astronomers would like it though).

Also need round EVF too but this could have cropping options to show various cropped images, this would have a control button or dial to toggle through various framing options :

you can have it cropped in landscape mode but toggle this button to instantly show portrait mode in the EVF instead of turning your camera on it's side .
whatever cropping option you choose could be self-leveling with the camera showing you the level image in the EVF whatever angle you happen to be holding your camera


Still 1.68 x more area is quite something and of course the sensor manufacturing cost would perhaps be double too but might be worthwhile for the versatility : imagine no twisting around for portrait/landscape or worrying about holding your camera level and no need for vertical grips with duplicated control buttons !

Could do the same for aps-c with a 27mm diameter version

Look at the image below and imagine the possibilities !


----------



## SteveC (Jan 31, 2021)

The way to figure this without having to make a drawing, is to use Pythagoras. Square your height, square your width, add them, take the square root. That will give you the length of the diagonal, and your image circle needs to be at least that wide (especially if using IBIS).


----------



## Chig (Jan 31, 2021)

SteveC said:


> The way to figure this without having to make a drawing, is to use Pythagoras. Square your height, square your width, add them, take the square root. That will give you the length of the diagonal, and your image circle needs to be at least that wide (especially if using IBIS).


Thanks Steve I've just done that too (before I saw your reply after remembering my high school maths) giving 43.27mm for Full Frame and 26.68mm for aps-c


----------



## Talys (Jan 31, 2021)

navastronia said:


> I just came in here to say that the A1 isn't very much camera for your money and that without a vertical grip and heavy duty build, it's not competing with a future R1 at all, and is instead an overpriced (albeit high-spec'd) R5 competitor.
> 
> IDK who Sony is fooling, but the A1 isn't a sports camera and shouldn't be priced like one.



It also looks to have the grip ergonomics that is awkward (to put it mildly) on large lenses. To be honest, when I saw the specs and the photos, I thought it was more much more in line with the A7R series and a R5/5D competitor than a pro sports workhorse.

I'll be curious as to how well the autofocus works compared to the R5, which is really in a league of its own at the moment.


----------



## Joules (Jan 31, 2021)

Chig said:


> Be nice if Canon use a stacked sensor to match Sony's dynamic range which is only aspect where they lag behind Sony


I am not so certain about that.

Canon doesn't market their sensor technologies all that much, but they have brought some serious punch to the table with the R5.

I believe dynamic range is not a direct benefit of stacked sensor designs. My understanding is that it allows more intricate read out circuits which can help with the noise floor, but Canon seems to have achieved comparable results (beaten Sony, actually) by using a different approach (see photons to photos comparison) 

I understood stacked sensors to be mainly about read out speed. Unfortunately, this is a number that's not often measured in reviews (despite being of interest, as it quantifies the rolling shutter), and of late it seems people also confuse it with the flash sync speed on top of this. I understand these to be related, but not the same. 

Measurements you can find for the a9 and R5 ( here and here) indicate that the a9 takes 1/150 s to read the full 24 MP sensor in fully electronic shutter mode, and the R5 takes 2.5 times as long at 1/60 s for the full 45 MP sensor. So the R5 is clearly slower, but it is a major jump for Canon and at 1.9 times the amount of pixels (and 3.8 times the amount of photosites) you could argue that the R5 actually almost keeps up with (or surpasses) the a9 in purely technical terms.

This is not saying that Sony's stacked designs isn't impressive. I'm just pointing out that Canon does not have to follow Sony's direction 1:1 to compete or beat them. There are a lot of rumors that the R1 and potentially even the high res R may see new sensor technology again.

I think we've seen by now that Canon is comfortable taking their sweet time to come up with their own implementations (IBIS, eye AF, video features, sensors,...) instead of jumping on what ever Sony is doing. Since they have not openly adapted stacked sensors yet, I believe they either have something they view as superior in the pipeline or will bring them once they do all they want without compromise. And cost is a compromise in this context.


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 31, 2021)

Chig said:


> Yes , you're right I just worked it out with a ruler and a compass .
> 
> Current image circle is about 43mm diameter to fit 24x36 sensor and it would also fit a 30x30 sensor
> 
> ...


Thanks for the diagram. I think it'll be a _glorious day_ when Canon makes this circular sensor!
Of course, when they do, you better look up at the sky since you might be hit by one of those "_flying pigs! _"


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 31, 2021)

Joules said:


> I am not so certain about that.
> 
> Canon doesn't market their sensor technologies all that much, but they have brought some serious punch to the table with the R5.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the good post, Joules. One thing that surprises me is that Canon has been able to do so much with dual pixels and a 45MP sensor (which I assume is 45M pixel elements consisting of 90M half-pixel elements) considering they still use "front-side" illumination instead of the "back-side" illumination that Sony switched to. I'd think that as you push the resolution further (90M half-pixel elements is already a ton!) you'd run out of room for the light bucket to see around all the upper circuitry. So in the new R1 sensor, if they do have quad-pixels then my guess is that their sensor will be front-sided, QP, FF with 6K-60fps video, 4K-120 video with "sufficient" heat control. Sensor is 6144 x 4096 (~25MP bayer array or slightly higher). This size QP sensor (probably with more AF points) would be faster & much more reliable at eye-AF which is one of the best things (IMHO) that ever happened to a camera. EDIT: 30 minute video limit should not exist as the EU no longer has this legal issue, but we'll see!


----------



## Joules (Jan 31, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> 30 minute video limit (legal only issue) may be there (if so, probably a license fee can remove it).


As far as I know, it's not crazy to expect future products to exceed the 30 min limit. The legal explanation given for it in the past was that the EU applies an extra tax on video devices, which are cameras that can record over 30 minutes. But that apparently was removed. Seems like on the R6 and R5 Canon just kept the 30 minute video for the lolz. Is the word crippled already censored?


----------



## usern4cr (Jan 31, 2021)

Joules said:


> As far as I know, it's not crazy to expect future products to exceed the 30 min limit. The legal explanation given for it in the past was that the EU applies an extra tax on video devices, which are cameras that can record over 30 minutes. But that apparently was removed. Seems like on the R6 and R5 Canon just kept the 30 minute video for the lolz. Is the word crippled already censored?


If it was removed, then why do you think the A1 still has a 30 minute limit? I assumed it was because of the legal issue, but maybe it's because of a heat issue and Sony picked the 30 minute number to make people think it was a legal issue and therefore better "hide" a heat issue (albeit not as bad) that they have as well?


----------



## juststeve (Jan 31, 2021)

Joules said:


> I am not so certain about that.
> 
> Canon doesn't market their sensor technologies all that much, but they have brought some serious punch to the table with the R5.
> 
> ...


You certainly raise valid points. Canon often does seem to be marching to its own drummers. 

On the other hand, reports of patents on this site and CanonNews indicate Canon has been doing a great deal of work on stacked sensors. To my mind, some of these patents are detailed to point to productions efficiencies, yield, lowering cost. They actually make for fascinating reading. 

Prior to IBIS showing up in the R5-6, a similar wealth of patents showed up detailing likely approaches to production of IBIS units.

Seems to me Canon is working on a stacked sensor, but working out their own methods of production and implementation. In doing so, perhaps they will find a way to have quad pixel AF and the torrent of data it creates and still have faster readouts like Sony. It seems to me global shutter is still a ways off, but something Canon is certainly working on and has managed to pull off in its Cinema line. At a very high price. 

A clue to Canon's stacked sensor intentions is the recent deal where Canon licensed another companies tech (believe it was reported here) which would facilitate stacked sensor manufacture.

Who knows, the R5 turned out to be more than probably most of us expected. Maybe the R1 will take another big leap forward.


----------



## Joules (Jan 31, 2021)

juststeve said:


> On the other hand, reports of patents on this site and CanonNews indicate Canon has been doing a great deal of work on stacked sensors.


Canon does so much with patents, it's really hard to draw conclusions on what is or isn't coming based on them. But they are certainly working on it and it will be exiting what the next round of Canon sensors brings to light. Certainly the R1 and high MP R (or APS-C, for that matter) are perfect candidates to show off with another advancement.


----------



## Joules (Jan 31, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> If it was removed, then why do you think the A1 still has a 30 minute limit? I assumed it was because of the legal issue, but maybe it's because of a heat issue and Sony picked the 30 minute number to make people think it was a legal issue and therefore better "hide" a heat issue (albeit not as bad) that they have as well?


On the a1 it certainly is a limitation of the hardware, likely geting too hot. There is a bunch of recent Sony cameras that do not have the 30 minute limit anymore.

As for Canon, they either just maintain it as a mean of differentiation (Canon's second favorite thing in the world, following cash of course  ) or they use some legacy hardware or software that they haven't updated since the tax got removed. Maybe the video encoding hardware is sourced from a provider that baked the limit into the hardware. And Canon also being a big fan of recycling may use that chip until they run out of stock or it becomes cheaper to switch sources to a newer design.

There's a bunch of possible explanations, but they are all speculation. Having to charge higher prices in EU countries is no longer an excuse to not offering unlimited recording though.


----------



## Pape (Jan 31, 2021)

Would be cool if they can put global shutter to R7 too. they need it if wanting make smaller full frame camera what M serie ones.
Global shutter is now expensive ,but all they need is new production line and things may be very different. Can save money when no need mechanic shutter.


----------



## arbitrage (Jan 31, 2021)

Seems like overheating isn't going to be an issue with the A1....


----------



## juststeve (Jan 31, 2021)

Seems Canon is moving a lot more bits around than the Sony A1 at 8K. The 8K RAW figure is 2600 Mb/sec and for H265 4:2:2 10 bit it is from 680 to 1300 Mb/s. And those figures are for DCI and courtesy B&H. Could that mean there is a difference in output quality? Still photographer here. Don't know much about videoh.


----------



## David - Sydney (Jan 31, 2021)

padam said:


> I think at least similar 20fps mechanical as the 1DX III so that would mean the same LP-E19 battery, so it's going to get bigger than an R5 with a vertical grip, and it wil have the smart-controller for both portrait and landscape orientation. They may decide to remove the two joysticks as it is not really necessary anymore.


The rear touch screen can move the focus point much faster than the joystick but that is only in landscape orientation. Does the smart controller provide equivalent control? 
I am finding that I don't use the joystick very much now on my R5. Too many other options with 3 wheels/dials (plus lens ring) and the touch features of the LCD.


----------



## Billybob (Jan 31, 2021)

john1970 said:


> Personally, I would like to see the following features: 1) quad-pixel AF; 2) Integrated Vertical Grip; 3) 30-40 MP sensor with excellent high ISO quality; 4) top fps of 25 fps with no drop in bit depth; 5) an electronic shutter with adjustable speed so one can go silent at lower speeds; 6) Spot metering linked to focus point; 7) global shutter to remove rolling shutter; 8) two type B CFExpress slots, 9) Rugged construction and weather sealing similar to 1D series.



To me it's all about AF performance: locking on, tracking, stickiness. Tony Northrup in his rushed initial A1 review reports disappointing birding results. The camera needs to be better not worst than the A9. 

So, for the R1, 20fps electronic is plenty. Quad-pixel AF if it truly provides AF improves, yes! Read speed has to be dramatically improved over the R5. When the speed of the target speeds up, and moves erratically, the R5 is hopeless. The A9 is almost as good as an OVF in keeping up. I don't know if Canon can design around Sony's stacked-sensor patents--it took long enough for Canon to circumvent the patents that prevented it from improving sensor DR--but Canon needs to speed up this significant juncture. 

And let's stay with the type B CFE cards. Two slots preferably, but I can live with one. 

Body style is not that important to me except that I don't want a hulking 1DX beast of a camera. If a built in battery grip is required (why?), let's keep the entire package close to the same size of a R5 with optional grip or not much bigger.

I for one, like 45+ MP. When I was still in the Sony camp, I begged for a 36MP sensor, but now that I've seen the A1, I've gotten greedy. 

Add the super-fast flash sync for icing, and keep the price under $7k U.S., and I'm there.


----------



## padam (Jan 31, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> The rear touch screen can move the focus point much faster than the joystick but that is only in landscape orientation. Does the smart controller provide equivalent control?
> I am finding that I don't use the joystick very much now on my R5. Too many other options with 3 wheels/dials (plus lens ring) and the touch features of the LCD.


From what I've seen, it pretty much combines the advantages of the two, it works with the rear LCD as well for pulling focus in video and of course for portrait orientation you have a second smart controller on the grip.
I still like to enjoy manual lenses and with the magnified view, the touch and drag moves the area in reverse direction just like it was on previous R models. It is (still) useless like this, and makes the joystick useful...


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Feb 1, 2021)

mpmark said:


> You want 30FPS? It has to be compressed raw or heif or jpg.


30 FPS HEIF would be quite impressive.
I highly doubt A1 could do that


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Feb 1, 2021)

Chig said:


> Doesn't seem necessary , especially as the R1 is probably stills focused


R1 should be a high-speed shooter.
If it shoots 30 FPS then that would be as demanding as video


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Feb 1, 2021)

navastronia said:


> IDK who Sony is fooling, but the A1 isn't a sports camera and shouldn't be priced like one.


R1 is priced like a flagship.
Sony has decided that their flagship camera should be a jack of all trades camera.
It is the one camera for people who only want one camera.
I am not sure if Canon or Nikon need to respond to it with a similar camera.


----------



## navastronia (Feb 1, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> R1 is priced like a flagship.
> Sony has decided that their flagship camera should be a jack of all trades camera.
> It is the one camera for people who only want one camera.
> I am not sure if Canon or Nikon need to respond to it with a similar camera.



The R5 has similar specs and costs $2500 less; simply being expensive doesn't make something a flagship. Where is the tough build and vertical grip?


----------



## SteveC (Feb 1, 2021)

navastronia said:


> The R5 has similar specs and costs $2500 less; simply being expensive doesn't make something a flagship. Where is the tough build and vertical grip?



Sure it can be a flagship. Just not of a first rate navy.


----------



## kaihp (Feb 1, 2021)

Chaitanya said:


> Given that motorsports seasons are going to start(WRC has already started and both F1 and MotoGP are expected to have longer seasons than normal) and high probability of Olympics being cancelled(as mentioned before) even if Canon announces R1 I expect to see it being used to cover motorsports season.


You're thinking 2022 motorsports seasons, right? The R1 surely won't show up before the start of the 2021 seasons (MotoGP starts at the end of March)


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Feb 1, 2021)

navastronia said:


> The R5 has similar specs and costs $2500 less; simply being expensive doesn't make something a flagship. Where is the tough build and vertical grip?


Top price indeed determines whether or not something is a flagship.
Sony gets to decide what they present as a flagship.
You get to decide if it is worthy of that designation.


----------



## Chaitanya (Feb 1, 2021)

kaihp said:


> You're thinking 2022 motorsports seasons, right? The R1 surely won't show up before the start of the 2021 seasons (MotoGP starts at the end of March)


For 2021 season F1 is committed to hosting 22(it was supposed to be 23 but China has been dropped ) races this year and 20 races for MotoGP draft 2021 calendar. I remember in promotional videos of one of 1Dx series of cameras featured a trackside photographer covering Monaco GP couple of days before launch. Even in case of latest EF 70-200mm f2.8L it was in use with F1 trackside photographers(it had changed paint so it was quite easy to spot, watch the post race celebrations of Monaco GP 2018)
So if Canon launches or is planning to launch R1 we will certainly see it being used by trackside and team photographers in motorsports.









F1 2021 schedule – The 2021 F1 race calendar, pre-season testing details and F1 car launch schedule | Formula 1®


Check out all of the key dates to stick in your diary for 2021, from the car launches to pre-season testing and the race calendar.




www.formula1.com













2021 MotoGP™ provisional calendar updated


Two races in Qatar and one in Portimão will now open the season, with the Argentina and Americas GPs postponed




www.motogp.com


----------



## Bert63 (Feb 1, 2021)

arbitrage said:


> Seems like overheating isn't going to be an issue with the A1....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




In Northrup's test it overheated in 16 minutes.

Then he put it into "disregard all heat warnings and cook the internals" mode and he was running about an hour. This is no different from the Sony solution in previous camera bodies - if you don't like heat warnings you can adjust the point at which they come on...


----------



## kaihp (Feb 1, 2021)

Chaitanya said:


> For 2021 season F1 is committed to hosting 22(it was supposed to be 23 but China has been dropped ) races this year and 20 races for MotoGP draft 2021 calendar. I remember in promotional videos of one of 1Dx series of cameras featured a trackside photographer covering Monaco GP couple of days before launch. Even in case of latest EF 70-200mm f2.8L it was in use with F1 trackside photographers(it had changed paint so it was quite easy to spot, watch the post race celebrations of Monaco GP 2018)
> So if Canon launches or is planning to launch R1 we will certainly see it being used by trackside and team photographers in motorsports.



Ah, so what you're saying that the R1 would be used for F1 and MotoGP _this year_ before the actual announcement and launch, right?

In that case we're in violent agreement. I thought you meant that the R1 would be announced/launched _before_ the F1 & MotoGP 2021 seasons kicks off.


----------



## Chaitanya (Feb 2, 2021)

kaihp said:


> Ah, so what you're saying that the R1 would be used for F1 and MotoGP _this year_ before the actual announcement and launch, right?
> 
> In that case we're in violent agreement. I thought you meant that the R1 would be announced/launched _before_ the F1 & MotoGP 2021 seasons kicks off.


Yes, we should see R1 trackside at WRC, MotoGP, and F1 if Canon is close to launch or announcing R1 this year. Getting feedback from photographers to work out the kinks(these should be firmware fixes) for final launch.


----------



## LSXPhotog (Feb 5, 2021)

Chig said:


> Have you experimented with the HEIF file format at all ?
> Looks to have similar editing flexibility to raw but with small file size like jpegs.


I have no desire to deal with HEIF files until their natively supported in file explorers and don't need to be tossed into Adobe Bridge/Photoshop/Lightroom just to look at them...at that point, I just shoot RAW.


----------



## LSXPhotog (Feb 5, 2021)

VegasCameraGuy said:


> I struggle to understand these arguments about file size. A 128 Gb CFx card will hold about 2,800 RAWs and the cost of hard drives goes down every day. The one time you need to crop in and save a picture is worth it. You don't take an Instamatic to a wedding because you seldom need high resolution but you take a high-end camera because it minimizes the number of times you have to say I'm sorry that your first kiss was fuzzy because I lost track of time and was in the back of the church when it happened! The reason professional photographers buy the best is that you prepare for every eventuality that you can so if your 45Mp sensor saves your behind once, it's worth it and all the wasted file space is forgotten.



It's has nothing to do with storage and space and everything to do with processing power. I have modern i7s in my laptops and a Ryzen 7 in my desktop - unpacking 2,000-4,000 cRAW or RAW files from the R5 is cumbersome still...and in Lightroom, they can take hours to create previews for - so I often don't. This isn't enjoyable, especially when I only have 10-15 minutes where I can come into a media tower and offload my cards and start quick processing for whoever I'm working for. With the 1DX, this was never a problem at all because of the 20mp resolution where I shot RAW exclusively at all my races. I could offload the card, import to Lightroom, filter by rating, throw a quick edit on all of them, and start the export and deliver quickly. This process - an incredibly large use case for professionals - is dramatically slowed down. So this is why I would love to have the option to say "I don't need 45mp right now" and be able to shoot 20-24mp when I wanted. Ask any wedding photographer if they prefer a D750 or a D850....or a A7III or an A7RIV....or an R6 or an R5. I think an overwhelming majority will take the D750, A7III, and R6.


----------



## usern4cr (Feb 5, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> I have no desire to deal with HEIF files until their natively supported in file explorers and don't need to be tossed into Adobe Bridge/Photoshop/Lightroom just to look at them...at that point, I just shoot RAW.


I also just shoot raw or cRaw(for smaller storage size) photos and process them in DXO PL4.
So I will never have a need to shoot heif photos in-camera.
The times I wish I could use heif for photos is for anytime I would have PL4 output jpgs for email, printing, or to AffinityPhoto or other secondary post software (and all that happens all the time!).


----------



## terrellcwoods (Feb 7, 2021)

I've had all the D1 bodies (bought used/demo) I really like my R6 & will probably get an R5 used at a later date. If that R1 comes in at 9k+ I will never own one. But what if Canon goes the road of not matching the new Sony A1. Remember Canon never had a camera in their DSLR lineup to directly compete with the Nikon D850. Does Canon have to have a high MP flagship? Or will it be in the 24 -32mp range? With new AF, new sensor, beefy processor, and all the connection access we expect and with the Canon $$$. I may be wrong but I still don't believe editors want to see a 50MP file being pushed to the desk. I think that A1 will be a great wildlife kit for people who sell prints but if I'm a Sony user that A92 or is 3is perfect. What do y'all think


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Feb 7, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> It's has nothing to do with storage and space and everything to do with processing power. I have modern i7s in my laptops and a Ryzen 7 in my desktop - unpacking 2,000-4,000 cRAW or RAW files from the R5 is cumbersome still...and in Lightroom, they can take hours to create previews for - so I often don't. This isn't enjoyable, especially when I only have 10-15 minutes where I can come into a media tower and offload my cards and start quick processing for whoever I'm working for. With the 1DX, this was never a problem at all because of the 20mp resolution where I shot RAW exclusively at all my races. I could offload the card, import to Lightroom, filter by rating, throw a quick edit on all of them, and start the export and deliver quickly. This process - an incredibly large use case for professionals - is dramatically slowed down. So this is why I would love to have the option to say "I don't need 45mp right now" and be able to shoot 20-24mp when I wanted. Ask any wedding photographer if they prefer a D750 or a D850....or a A7III or an A7RIV....or an R6 or an R5. I think an overwhelming majority will take the D750, A7III, and R6.


Interesting. I wonder if Lightroom is more sluggish than using Bridge to sort through files. My computer is 7 years old and I often have 2000 + images in a single folder in Bridge and don’t really have any issues with speed. And this is with the 45mp R5 files in full RAW


----------



## Antono Refa (Feb 7, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> A square sensor would be vastly more expensive to produce. Not only does it need more wafers to make the same number of sensors, but it would require a bigger IBIS, faster processor, re-engineered mechanical shutter, bigger square view finder....
> 
> You create all kinds of engineering problems and increase the price of the camera by many times to create something that produces a undesirable image ratio that has to be cropped in post. A flick switch on the side that just tells the IBIS system to rotate the sensor would be cheaper and faster, but even then, just go with the gripped body so you can get those lovely huge batteries in the bloody thing.



I agree, and think its more than that, e.g.

1. The EF 24-105mm f/4L mkI has a baffle, which would make it incompatible with square sensor. Same for lenses with gel filter - the holder is rectangular.

2. With 24x36 sensor, the shutter curtain would have to travel 36mm, which would affect flash sync time.

3. Canon could crop the image in camera to either horizontal or vertical, but using the vertical would require either vertical display (= larger EVF, read lower yields & higher prices) or rotating the image 90 degrees, which would be confusing.


----------



## kaihp (Feb 8, 2021)

Antono Refa said:


> 2. With 24x36 sensor, the shutter curtain would have to travel 36mm, which would affect flash sync time.



With a square sensor, the image circle would limit the side length to 30.6mm, not 36mm, but your point about increased flash sync time stands.


----------



## Antono Refa (Feb 9, 2021)

kaihp said:


> With a square sensor, the image circle would limit the side length to 30.6mm, not 36mm, but your point about increased flash sync time stands.



If the image circle was smaller than 36mm, it wouldn't cover the edges of a 24x36 sensor. The image circle has a diameter of 43.266mm, so it would reach all sides of a 36x36 sensor. Its the corners it wouldn't cover- that would require an image circle with a diameter of 50.9mm.


----------



## Joules (Feb 9, 2021)

Antono Refa said:


> If the image circle was smaller than 36mm, it wouldn't cover the edges of a 24x36 sensor. The image circle has a diameter of 43.266mm, so it would reach all sides of a 36x36 sensor. Its the corners it wouldn't cover- that would require an image circle with a diameter of 50.9mm.


Your square sensor has a diagonal of sqrt(36^2 + 36^2) = sqrt(2)*36 = 50.9 > 43.3

So the edges remain dark for some lenses. Obviously many RF lenses have a much bigger image circle to allow the sensor to move without leaving it. But there's also a lot of people that already find the vignetting too strong in these lenses.

I would think simply allowing the sensor to be rotated by a custom angle would be the more economical way to achieve the convenience. Or instead of having the image circle move though shifting the lens elements, move the sensor so it samples the entire image sensor.


----------



## Antono Refa (Feb 9, 2021)

Joules said:


> Your square sensor has a diagonal of sqrt(36^2 + 36^2) = sqrt(2)*36 = 50.9 > 43.3
> 
> So the edges remain dark for some lenses.



I speak English as a second language, but I would say the corners would remain dark.



Joules said:


> Obviously many RF lenses have a much bigger image circle to allow the sensor to move without leaving it. But there's also a lot of people that already find the vignetting too strong in these lenses.



My bet is for combination of long focal length and wide aperture, such a 36x36 sensor would be covered. Otherwise, who knows? The RF 15-35mm f/2.8L has 4 stops of vignetting @15mm f/2.8, which IMHO means it doesn't cover the full 24x36 sensor at those settings.



Joules said:


> I would think simply allowing the sensor to be rotated by a custom angle would be the more economical way to achieve the convenience. Or instead of having the image circle move though shifting the lens elements, move the sensor so it samples the entire image sensor.



My understanding is the image circle should remain where it is. I doubt the sensor could be rotated, but it would still suffer from a problem I've mentioned - it wouldn't play well with lenses that have a baffle or gel filter.


----------



## Chig (Feb 10, 2021)

Antono Refa said:


> I speak English as a second language, but I would say the corners would remain dark.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would suggest a round sensor of say 43mm diameter to match the image sensor of most lenses which allow you to crop portrait or landscape or square crop at any angle or even keep the full round image if you prefer.
The camera could have a button or dial to switch between different crops allowing you to see how it looks in the EVF and no need for vertical grips and duplicated controls , also if you've chosen say landscape crop the camera could automatically adjust to compensate it you aren't holding the camera level keeping the chosen crop horizontal in the viewfinder.
If you get some vignetting on certain lenses then the camera could just make the crops smaller to compensate automatically.


----------



## usern4cr (Feb 10, 2021)

Chig said:


> I would suggest a round sensor of say 43mm diameter to match the image sensor of most lenses which allow you to crop portrait or landscape or square crop at any angle or even keep the full round image if you prefer.
> The camera could have a button or dial to switch between different crops allowing you to see how it looks in the EVF and no need for vertical grips and duplicated controls , also if you've chosen say landscape crop the camera could automatically adjust to compensate it you aren't holding the camera level keeping the chosen crop horizontal in the viewfinder.
> If you get some vignetting on certain lenses then the camera could just make the crops smaller to compensate automatically.
> View attachment 195726


Wow - this topic still goes on (I'm surprised). 

I'd still like to (genuinely) mention how it'd be great if Canon ever did this. If I had the expendable money to pay for the _much_ higher price of that big round (or 30 to 36mm square) sensor & EVF & back LCD then I would definitely get it. And "_when_" that day does happen (I repeat) I'd make sure to watch out for those "_flying pigs_"!


----------



## Joules (Feb 10, 2021)

Chig said:


> I would suggest a round sensor of say 43mm diameter to match the image sensor of most lenses which allow you to crop portrait or landscape or square crop at any angle or even keep the full round image if you prefer.


I've not read every post here so sorry for potential duplicates. But a few more downsides to consider:

The larger sensor requires a wider shutter that has to travel further, adding even more cost and compromising FPS and flash sync time.

It also makes the electronic shutter distortion even worse as different rows of pixels would require different read times, introducing a variable curvature to the resulting distortion, instead of just the slanting we have now.

A global shutter would of course address both points.

Maybe not a big deal but it might also require replacing existing flower petal lens hoods with circular, shorter ones. Depending on how much the petal shape is tailored to the sensor format.

Increased file size isn't really a factor in my eyes, but some people even use that to argue against larger resolutions.


----------



## kaihp (Feb 11, 2021)

Chig said:


> I would suggest a round sensor of say 43mm diameter to match the image sensor of most lenses which allow you to crop portrait or landscape or square crop at any angle or even keep the full round image if you prefer.





usern4cr said:


> I'd still like to (genuinely) mention how it'd be great if Canon ever did this.



Non-rectangular sensors are never gonna happen, with current manufacturing technology: they cut the (round) wafer into discrete sensor chips using a saw that goes from side to side, so stopping in the middle to go in a different direction (or making a round sensor) is not possible.

If you wanted to do something remotely circular, hexagonal chips would be interesting as they'd fill out the wafer well. Now we 'just' need to sort out how to dice the wafer in honeycomb pattern.


----------



## JohnC (Feb 11, 2021)

I lot of wasted material cutting circles out of a sheet...not likely


----------



## unfocused (Feb 11, 2021)

JohnC said:


> I lot of wasted material cutting circles out of a sheet...not likely


I lot of wasted internet space discussing a topic that has been around on this forum for probably 10 years or more, is ridiculously impractical and is never going to happen.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 12, 2021)

dolina said:


> R1 will exceed the tech specs of A1 and be in stock at BH within 12 months.
> 
> Canon will offer a (free?) program to modify Series III EF 400mm and 600mm lens to RF mount.



When did you change your mind that there's no way Canon would undercut their investment in the 1D X Mark III by introducing the R1 anytime before 2024?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 12, 2021)

Joules said:


> Nonetheless, we can also express our opinions about a situation.




One can do anything they wish, as long as they recognize they will have to live with the consequences.


----------



## Chig (Feb 12, 2021)

kaihp said:


> Non-rectangular sensors are never gonna happen, with current manufacturing technology: they cut the (round) wafer into discrete sensor chips using a saw that goes from side to side, so stopping in the middle to go in a different direction (or making a round sensor) is not possible.
> 
> If you wanted to do something remotely circular, hexagonal chips would be interesting as they'd fill out the wafer well. Now we 'just' need to sort out how to dice the wafer in honeycomb pattern.


Well the wafers are also often cut by laser cutting so can't see that's a deal breaker


----------



## dolina (Feb 12, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> When did you change your mind that there's no way Canon would undercut their investment in the 1D X Mark III by introducing the R1 anytime before 2024?


I change my position when presented with compelling evidence. I do not dig in out of pride. 

Something to consider when talking about things more substantial than camera releases.

I expect this year's rescheduled 2020 and 2022 Olympics events to be rescheduled or outright cancelled due to COVID-19


----------



## Hector1970 (Feb 13, 2021)

dolina said:


> I change my position when presented with compelling evidence. I do not dig in out of pride.


It's the way we should all be. People seem to hold opinions to the death even when evidence shows otherwise


----------



## SteveC (Feb 13, 2021)

Hector1970 said:


> It's the way we should all be. People seem to hold opinions to the death even when evidence shows otherwise


They regard admitting they were wrong as a sign of weakness.

It is, in fact, a sign of strength, in my book, that their ego can withstand acknowledging they're not perfect.


----------



## kaihp (Feb 14, 2021)

Chig said:


> Well the wafers are also often cut by laser cutting so can't see that's a deal breaker


Never heard of that while I designed ICs. Got a link? Seriously interested.


----------



## Chig (Feb 15, 2021)

kaihp said:


> Never heard of that while I designed ICs. Got a link? Seriously interested.











TRUMPF the solutions provider


As a high-tech company, TRUMPF provides manufacturing solutions in the fields of machine tools, laser technology, electronics and Industry 4.0.




www.spilasers.com


----------



## dolina (Feb 15, 2021)

Hector1970 said:


> It's the way we should all be. People seem to hold opinions to the death even when evidence shows otherwise


Although last Saturday's 7.1 magnitude earthquake may scuttle Canon's 2021 plans. Good luck to everyone actually buying gear in 2021.

The problem with product rumors is that almost all the time its based on what the buyer wants to happen rather than what makes sense economically for the company producing.


----------



## usern4cr (Feb 15, 2021)

dolina said:


> Although last Saturday's 7.1 magnitude earthquake may scuttle Canon's 2021 plans. Good luck to everyone actually buying gear in 2021.
> 
> The problem with product rumors is that almost all the time its based on what the buyer wants to happen rather than what makes sense economically for the company producing.


What was the level of damage to the manufacturing industry in Japan from that earthquake?


----------



## dolina (Feb 15, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> What was the level of damage to the manufacturing industry in Japan from that earthquake?


CanonRumor has yet to disclose that information.

When the 2011 Japan earthquake occurred my order for the 400/2.8 IS II was delayed by a year.

Back then they had a plant near the epicenter. I am unsure if this has changed.


----------



## GoldWing (Feb 18, 2021)

The more I see on the SONY A1, I just don't see how Canon can compete with the R1


----------



## JohnC (Feb 18, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> The more I see on the SONY A1, I just don't see how Canon can compete with the R1


Based on what little I’ve read they don’t need to. The R5 competes well enough as is.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Feb 18, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> The more I see on the SONY A1, I just don't see how Canon can compete with the R1


I dont think they will try to compete. The R5 has most of what the A1 offers at a much better price. I think an R1 will be a true 'profeesional' body. Big, solid, almost indestructable and containing all the features and specs to get the job done well in any situation. It will be a monster of a camera but not necessarily a 'spec monster'. Although having said that i have no doubt its specs will still be insane


----------



## zim (Feb 18, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> The more I see on the SONY A1, I just don't see how Canon can compete with the R1


Why? I very much doubt it will have a 20mp sensor wasn't that your biggest (only?) complaint of the 1dx3. I reckon they held back on the 1dx3 because of the R1


----------



## GoldWing (Feb 19, 2021)

JohnC said:


> Based on what little I’ve read they don’t need to. The R5 competes well enough as is.


If that's the case.... The R1 will be a failure


----------



## JohnC (Feb 19, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> If that's the case.... The R1 will be a failure


Hmmm...let’s restate this. 

So your opinion is that if the R5 competes well the Sony A1 well enough as is, then the R1 will be a failure?

There is a first for everything so perhaps you are right, BUT...a couple of things.

1. While I don’t know, I suspect that whatever specs the R1 ultimately has it will surpass those of the R5 by a good margin. Considering the success of the R5 thus far it would seem a little shortsighted to label the eventual R1 as a failure. 
2. The 1 series from Canon, and the comparable Nikon body (what’s the latest D6?). Have been at the pinnacle of pro action photography for a very long time. People have their opinions on which way the wind has blown with any given model release but from what I see nothing else introduced has knocked either of them from that spot. Sony has certainly introduced some competition in this niche which is great...but taken it over? Not even close. Considering all their histories at this point I would be highly surprised if any of them introduced a failure to the market.

But hey...time will tell as it always does and perhaps I’m reading it all wrong. I mean I was certainly wrong when I didn’t believe Canon was going down the tubes.


----------



## Joules (Feb 19, 2021)

JohnC said:


> Hmmm...let’s restate this.
> 
> So your opinion is that if the R5 competes well the Sony A1 well enough as is, then the R1 will be a failure?
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that GoldWing operates under such high standards that the lowly 1DX III is a disaster in his eyes.


----------



## GoldWing (Feb 23, 2021)

Joules said:


> Keep in mind that GoldWing operates under such high standards that the lowly 1DX III is a disaster in his eyes.


As an "upgrade to the 1DXMKII" it is and was. Canon knew full well the timing and R6 R5 modality at the time. It was dishonest IMHO. If today Canon released the R5 and 1DXMKIII on the same day, what do you think the market would have done. We all know the game!


----------



## GoldWing (Feb 23, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> As an "upgrade to the 1DXMKII" it is and was. Canon knew full well the timing and R6 R5 modality at the time. It was dishonest IMHO. If today Canon released the R5 and 1DXMKIII on the same day, what do you think the market would have done. We all know the game!


Bottom line, if the R1 does not exceed R5 and A1 it will not sell. Canon has enough time to not put a dumbed down camera in front of professionals within context of the A1 and R5. This could be their last chance according to many.


----------



## TravelerNick (Feb 24, 2021)

The market for something like the R5 and the R1 are very different.

The R1 needs to be designed to work 100% 24/7 while standing in the middle of a hurricane before stepping into a -30C blizzard before stepping into a 40C heat wave. No babying. No thinking it might work it might not.

It needs to be tough enough to crack walnuts in between shots.


----------



## SteveC (Feb 24, 2021)

TravelerNick said:


> The market for something like the R5 and the R1 are very different.
> 
> The R1 needs to be designed to work 100% 24/7 while standing in the middle of a hurricane before stepping into a -30C blizzard before stepping into a 40C heat wave. No babying. No thinking it might work it might not.
> 
> It needs to be tough enough to crack walnuts in between shots.


 Wrong. It needs to be tough enough to crack brazil nuts. 

Oh, and there'd better be some indication that they're working on being able to withstand the flame from a bernz-o-matic, too.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 27, 2021)

Hector1970 said:


> It's the way we should all be. People seem to hold opinions to the death even when evidence shows otherwise



I agree it's the way we should be. I was just referencing another post where lots of evidence was presented and dolina was solidly dug in that there would be no R1 until 2024.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 27, 2021)

SteveC said:


> Wrong. It needs to be tough enough to crack brazil nuts.
> 
> Oh, and there'd better be some indication that they're working on being able to withstand the flame from a bernz-o-matic, too.



I always thought the standard was you could use it to bludgeon someone to death and still be able to use it to take a perfectly focused photo of the corpse?


----------



## GoldWing (Feb 27, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> As an "upgrade to the 1DXMKII" it is and was. Canon knew full well the timing and R6 R5 modality at the time. It was dishonest IMHO. If today Canon released the R5 and 1DXMKIII on the same day, what do you think the market would have done. We all know the game!


Relative to Canon R5, SONY A1 it is. The move from MKII to MKIII was a waste with Canon knowing the R5 was being released. Many are tired of dumbed down cameras. Fuji, Sony, Samsung are leaps in front. If the R1 is not superior to the A1 and R5, Canon will lose their pro sports franchise.


----------



## GoldWing (Feb 27, 2021)

JohnC said:


> Hmmm...let’s restate this.
> 
> So your opinion is that if the R5 competes well the Sony A1 well enough as is, then the R1 will be a failure?
> 
> ...


The Canon 1 series and Nikon D are antiquaded compared to current technology. The R1 will test if Canon can stay relevant.


----------



## Joules (Feb 27, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> The Canon 1 series and Nikon D are antiquaded compared to current technology. The R1 will test if Canon can stay relevant.


If you changed that to 'stay relevant to GoldWing', it would be much easier to agree with that statement.


----------



## GoldWing (Feb 27, 2021)

Joules said:


> If you changed that to 'stay relevant to GoldWing', it would be much easier to agree with that statement.


We test new equipment and the 1DXMKIII was nothing more than Canon moving old inventory. FACT


----------



## TravelerNick (Feb 27, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> I always thought the standard was you could use it to bludgeon someone to death and still be able to use it to take a perfectly focused photo of the corpse?



I thought you had to knock out a mugger while still not missing a shot. 

You can manually focus a corpse. Outside of the Walking Dead they tend to hold still better than the average model


----------



## Michael Clark (Mar 13, 2021)

TravelerNick said:


> I thought you had to knock out a mugger while still not missing a shot.
> 
> You can manually focus a corpse. Outside of the Walking Dead they tend to hold still better than the average model



The lens needs to still be in alignment, both with itself (element to element) and with the image plane, though.


----------

