# its all about the 5DS, who is using the 5DR



## TeT (Sep 18, 2015)

Almost all relative posts mention the 5DS ... only. Everybody says it is great... Everybody compares it to the Sony or the 5DIII or the upcoming this that and the other... The 5DS...

Who is using the 5DR?


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## privatebydesign (Sep 18, 2015)

I'm not, I am not using either yet. I had decided that if the 1DX MkII doesn't give me what I want then I'd get a 5DS as I was concerned about the moire potential from the 5DS. 

BUT, I have been playing with some 5DSR files that have moire and using the moire removal tool in LR is truthfully amazing, that and the fact that when you get moire with the 5DSR you also get it with the 5DS, just not as bad, has made me think a 5DSR is in my future.


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## mkabi (Sep 18, 2015)

TeT said:


> Almost all relative posts mention the 5DS ... only. Everybody says it is great... Everybody compares it to the Sony or the 5DIII or the upcoming this that and the other... The 5DS...
> 
> Who is using the 5DR?



I know one friend in real life who uses the 5DSR, haven't seen him since he got it... I think its about time that I pay him a visit.

But if you do a small search on this forum, there is at least 2 people that own the 5DSR, e.g. 
Eldar from the looks of this thread -http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=26828.0

PureClassA has it according to his signature.

BTW, if you haven't noticed the 5DS is the only one with the price drops. Hence, more people buying into it?


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## takesome1 (Sep 18, 2015)

I bought the 5Ds R

I have seen moire in a few pics in 4000. 
In those pics it didn't matter for the overall nature of the picture.
It was repairable as well. 
I seldom shoot people, most have been city scape, wildlife and landscape.

For me so far it has been a non issue and the camera has been great. I am glad I went with the 5Ds R.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 18, 2015)

I see just the opposite, many are buying the 5DSR. It was in short supply for a long time, while the 5DS was being discounted. I think that many who want such a high MP body are going for the R version.


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## takesome1 (Sep 18, 2015)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I see just the opposite, many are buying the 5DSR. It was in short supply for a long time, while the 5DS was being discounted. I think that many who want such a high MP body are going for the R version.



I would be curious to see the actual production and release numbers.
I bet the 5Ds R out sold the 5Ds substantially.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 18, 2015)

takesome1 said:


> I would be curious to see the actual production and release numbers.
> I bet the 5Ds R out sold the 5Ds substantially.




That's something that we will not see. However, there are companies who monitor sales at key stores and issue estimates based on their sales... for a price, of course.

One Hint is that Amazon lists the 5DS as #35 in sales while the 5DSR is #61. That may be due to previous availability issues, but sales of the 5DS are definitely better on Amazon.


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## Zeidora (Sep 18, 2015)

another R user, pre-ordered it. Quite happy with it, but still getting used to it.


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## Maiaibing (Sep 18, 2015)

TeT said:


> Almost all relative posts mention the 5DS ... only. Everybody says it is great... Everybody compares it to the Sony or the 5DIII or the upcoming this that and the other... The 5DS...
> 
> Who is using the 5DR?



Got a 5DSR for a very good price. Very happy so far. 

Have not really had any time at all to use it so far, but soon I'll get a chance to put it to the test. 

Basically, its a 5DIII on steroids with a number of small/big improvements - AF being the most important - and with amazing ability to crop when needed. Have not seen any moire but have also not done more than a few shots where it could be a problem.

ACR profile is not the greatest - so I try using a color checker when possible.

If anyone knows of a tool or way to crop RAW files (into a new Canon Raw file) I would be very happy as the color checker software cannot handle 50 mpix files and I annoyingly need to work around this.


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 18, 2015)

One dealer in the UK I know ordered more 5DS cameras than 5DS R cameras (almost 2:1) and said he wished they had ordered more 5DS R versions as they sold out quickly.


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## wockawocka (Sep 18, 2015)

Dual 5DSr's here, 2000 frames per wedding and it's all I use now.


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## Rob Wiebe (Sep 18, 2015)

5DS R here. Pre-Ordered so received as soon as they were shipping. Primarily Landscape use and quite liking it. Amazing amount of data and still getting used to processing.


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## TeT (Sep 18, 2015)

nice to see some input...

Was wondering since I mostly see the 5D"S" referenced.


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## keithcooper (Sep 19, 2015)

TeT said:


> nice to see some input...
> 
> Was wondering since I mostly see the 5D"S" referenced.


Partly because the camera is just generally referred to as a 5Ds 

There are people to whom it matters that they have the 'R' and there are people who find it helps with their work in certain specialised areas - the two sets overlap to a far smaller extent than many of those in the first set might like to believe ;-)


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## Sporgon (Sep 19, 2015)

TeT said:


> nice to see some input...
> 
> Was wondering since I mostly see the 5D"S" referenced.



I would think that the term '5Ds' is being used generically - the s or sr. I know I do. I'd like to see someone pick out which pictures were shot on which variation of the model !


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## longtallkarl (Sep 19, 2015)

i too bought a 5dsr when canonpricewatch had an early street price deal and b&h still hadn't filled their preorders. anyway, moving from a 5dii, i'm very pleased with the upgrade but still feel like i'm just scratching the surface of what it can do. i was initially worried about not seeing too much of a resolution difference unless i was working on a tripod, but that myth was soon dispelled. i have yet to have an issue with moire.


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## Zeidora (Sep 19, 2015)

longtallkarl said:


> i too bought a 5dsr when canonpricewatch had an early street price deal and b&h still hadn't filled their preorders. anyway, moving from a 5dii, i'm very pleased with the upgrade but still feel like i'm just scratching the surface of what it can do. i was initially worried about not seeing too much of a resolution difference unless i was working on a tripod, but that myth was soon dispelled. i have yet to have an issue with moire.


Interesting. Another 5D2 to 5DsR mover. Same here, never saw the point of the 5D3, but got the 5DsR right away.


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## KeithsCanon (Sep 19, 2015)

Just wondering if anyone has compared the 5ds or 5dsr to the 1dx?? And what there thoughts were. I did try to compare my 1dx to the 5dsr but had limited time to try a "scientific" photoshoot. 
Thanks for everyone's time.


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## kbmelb (Sep 20, 2015)

I bought the 5DsR Shortly after they were released. I actually got it for $200 less with about $150 worth ad ins thrown in.

Moiré is definitely an issue and I'd imagine it would be on the 5Ds also. I remember moiré tainted shots from the OG 5D too so...

Back to the 5DsR, it's definitely not my all around camera, that would be 5D3. Shooting several shots in a row makes it bog on image previews and the files size isn't something I need all the time. Shooting med RAW has some bottle necking too as the camera doesn't generate jpeg previews therefore Lightroom has to do it and that increases processing time. I probably could use a more powerful machine to process them too. Currently on a 2011 2.4 i7 MBP 16g RAM and SSD.

The files are really nice. I'd say on par with my 1Ds3 (that it has replaced) as far as sharpness and possibly slightly better DR. The shadows don't have banding in the shadows that cursed the 5D2 and to lesser extent the 5D3. With the files and performance I'd say it is very similar to 1Ds3 with better AF and substantially larger but familiar files.

I'm having pretty decent success with my hand held shots. I was missing a lot at first (I hate tripods even in studio) but it has made me more conscious of my technique which I'm actually happy about. Due to the file sizes, I'm also very conscious of over shooting now which I'm also very happy about. It is actually taking me back a little.

The 5DsR with the 100L makes for serious giddiness when viewing the files.


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 28, 2015)

Well finally caved in to my desires and bought the 5Ds this weekend got a good discount from list price and as I bought the EF24-70mm f4L IS USM at the same time it also gets a Canon cash-back of £ 165.00. The 7D was traded against the 5Ds as I really was not using it any longer but I intend on keeping and using the 6D (until Canon upgrades it). 
My first images were taken yesterday and I will process them tonight all were on a tripod at the coast. 

What is peoples experiance regarding processing Im using a current generation 21.5" iMac I also have a fairly powerfull 13" MBP and I think I will buy a faster stand-alone hard-drive to download the files too. Im using the latest Adobe LR / PS subscription package.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Sep 29, 2015)

hmmmmmmm. Ok, so I did already rent the 5ds, don't have the available funds to purchase for a bit so it's all about the rental for me now. So yeah, this topic makes me wonder. I got warned off the 5dsr because i do mainly shoot weddings and moire may be an issue with fabrics...


But that was way back closer to the release. So, since then, how many have been using the 5dsr for weddings? With a double header wedding weekend it will be a really good test case. Jut wondering if now that these bodies have been out for a few month that maybe there's more data out there for things like weddings! 

Gonna be placing the rental order today, so feedback needs to be quick!!!!!


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## Halfrack (Sep 29, 2015)

wockawocka said:


> Dual 5DSr's here, 2000 frames per wedding and it's all I use now.


Z isn't getting as much use? I just did a wedding with the 645Z/5DsR combo - I love the Z files more, but the silent shutter and the 11-24 are reason enough to get one.

In talking with a Canon rep around shipping time, they didn't believe that the 5DS/5DsR would track the D800/800e, where folks went for the non-AA body more.


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## wockawocka (Sep 29, 2015)

Halfrack said:


> wockawocka said:
> 
> 
> > Dual 5DSr's here, 2000 frames per wedding and it's all I use now.
> ...



Z has been sold. Whether the 5DSr is better will have to wait until I go landscaping next month. For wedding stuff it's much more convenient and useful.



KeithsCanon said:


> Just wondering if anyone has compared the 5ds or 5dsr to the 1dx?? And what there thoughts were. I did try to compare my 1dx to the 5dsr but had limited time to try a "scientific" photoshoot.
> Thanks for everyone's time.



Metering, focus accuracy, low light AF and white balance are better than the 1DX. So is the image quality but it's hard to really compare something three times the pixel count tbh.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 30, 2015)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> hmmmmmmm. Ok, so I did already rent the 5ds, don't have the available funds to purchase for a bit so it's all about the rental for me now. So yeah, this topic makes me wonder. I got warned off the 5dsr because i do mainly shoot weddings and moire may be an issue with fabrics...
> 
> 
> But that was way back closer to the release. So, since then, how many have been using the 5dsr for weddings? With a double header wedding weekend it will be a really good test case. Jut wondering if now that these bodies have been out for a few month that maybe there's more data out there for things like weddings!
> ...



I have been somebody who was very wary of moire, I don't shoot many weddings but would dread the prospect of ruined images. I have been patiently waiting the 1DX MkII announcement but have been thinking the 5DS/R might be more appropriate if the specs of the 1DX MkII aren't what I am looking for.

To that end I have been playing with some 5DSR images that have moire in clothing, and using the moire removal tool in Lightroom is amazingly good, so much so that I have changed my focus from the 5DS to the 5DSR.

I'd love people to post more images with moire in, but so far I haven't found many.


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## 9VIII (Sep 30, 2015)

wockawocka said:


> Dual 5DSr's here, 2000 frames per wedding and it's all I use now.



So, shooting weddings with the 5DSR, out of 2000 frames how many on average are going to have moire?


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## takesome1 (Sep 30, 2015)

9VIII said:


> wockawocka said:
> 
> 
> > Dual 5DSr's here, 2000 frames per wedding and it's all I use now.
> ...



If everyone is wearing pin striped suits and dresses maybe all 2000.


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## wockawocka (Sep 30, 2015)

takesome1 said:


> 9VIII said:
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There's more moire in a 5D3 and 6D than there is on the 5Ds - It's the 50mp you see. The higher the pixels the less moire you get. It's why there was a race to get to 50mp in Medium format. CCD, no AA filters on their backs yet most shot fashion.

So if I was shooting 2000 striped suits and dresses I'd be happier using the 5DSr than anything else.


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## gkaefer (Sep 30, 2015)

Have my 5DSr since July.
shot daylight landscapes and ourdoor theatre plays before/while/after sunsets.
about 3.5k images so far. got no moires until now.
Georg, hobbyist...


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## Eldar (Sep 30, 2015)

I have used my 5DSR extensively since its release date and have way over 10.000 exposures. I use it on everything from portraits, events, wildlife, landscape, birds etc. So far I have not seen a single image with moire problems.


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## GMCPhotographics (Sep 30, 2015)

Here in the Uk, there's quite a price disparity between the 5D3S and the 5D3R. 
I can't help but wonder if the extra price is really worth the lack of AA filter?
Maybe I'll just wait a bit for the price to come down more before I indulge in one.


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 30, 2015)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Here in the Uk, there's quite a price disparity between the 5D3S and the 5D3R.
> I can't help but wonder if the extra price is really worth the lack of AA filter?
> Maybe I'll just wait a bit for the price to come down more before I indulge in one.


Cheapest new price Ive seen for the 5DS is £ 2,700 over at Mifsuds in Devon for Canon UK stock, cheeper cameras on the net are either imports or S/H low shutter count cameras. Not seen the 5DS R discounted from its £ 3,100 price yet. I bought at Mifsuds they were really helpful let me shoot shots with their display camera and view on their system before purchase something you would NEVER get from Amazon.


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## GMCPhotographics (Sep 30, 2015)

jeffa4444 said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
> 
> 
> > Here in the Uk, there's quite a price disparity between the 5D3S and the 5D3R.
> ...



HDew cameras : 5D3S £2179 5D3R: £2439
Both include VAT...so if you can claim the VAT back...


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 30, 2015)

GMCPhotographics said:


> jeffa4444 said:
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HDew only sell grey imports so no Canon UK support.


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## PureClassA (Sep 30, 2015)

Yeah I had one on pre-order the moment they opened up. I really love it. Honestly I haven't had any moire with it that I've found so far, and I've done a number of shoots with fine pattern clothing and other such moire inducing circumstances. At 50MP, you really have plenty enough resolving power to prevent most moire in the first place.

I've been most impressed with the ability to lift shadows in this vs my 5D3. There's definitely an extra stop of latitude there, and pulling highlights back seem to be better. The only complaint is the file size, but that was expected. Colors are super rich and just perfect right out the sensor. I think the noise levels are on par with the 6D in the upper ISOs.


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## GMCPhotographics (Oct 1, 2015)

jeffa4444 said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
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UK support? You drop it...you pay to get it repaired. You get it wet...you pay...support is irrelevant under CPS.
You want it fixed...it's costs this....end of story. I've yet to have a camera or lens repair pushed back to me because of the location of the camera or Lens purchase.


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## iaind (Oct 2, 2015)

GMCPhotographics said:


> jeffa4444 said:
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Have you tried to trade in a grey import?


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## East Wind Photography (Oct 26, 2015)

Sigh...so I broke down and picked up a 5ds R under this new 300.00 rebate. As a previous 5DIII user, I was skeptical that the 5ds R would give me more. Well it does but it's a trade off. The 5D3 does have lower noise levels at higher ISO...but I'm talking ISO 3200 and 6400. Anything under that seems to be about the same...anything over that is in the area of specialty needs....which I will miss but perhaps not for long (at least until the 5D IV and 1DX II come out).

What I find compelling at this point is that the resoution IS in fact that much better. Quite frankly is of the caliber of throwing caution out the window at all levels. True it lacks a decent burst speed and that is it's major downfall. However what it makes up for in resolution, sharpness, distance versatility, I can forgive the fps for now. In time Canon will fix the fps issue...maybe Digic 10 or 12???? I wouldnt call it the most versatile camera but from a distance perspective it is indeed.

I took it out for it's maiden journey this past weekend shooting a soccer game and while the FPS was dismal compared to my 7DII, it was on par with my "old" 5D3 and I was able to use my 70-200 and get really good results across the field and deeply cropped...VERY deeply cropped.

Over 1000 shots and could not find one where Moire was an issue. I was specifically looking for it in every shot. Granted most everything on a soccer field is pretty random, soccer players generally dont wear pin stripes. Moire will come into play eventually I'm sure.

The AF system is almost identical to the 7DII albut smaller in the viewfinder (perhaps 1.6 times smaller?). Function, reliability, speed, accuracy is about the same. I did attach my 1.4xiii for a time and on a few instances it stumbled trying to get a lock on a corner flag (usually what I shoot before each game to verify AFMA is still correct). I removed it for the game and will test that in a more controlled environment later. We've seen issues with the 70-200 on new bodies before so I'm not completely surprised by that. Just keep that in mind during a critical shoot.

As others reported, AFMA is super critical. I'm not sure Focal can get you the level of accuracy that you really need with this. However I plan on giving it a shot and comparing with my manual settings. I used a Spyder Lens cal and found I was able to dial it in fairly quickly...though it took more shots than it did with the 7D2. The higher resolution makes it more difficult to discern focus variations on the test chart. One would think the opposite since it's readily apparent when AFMA is off using the 5ds series. PErhaps it has something to do with the in camera sharpening (I did not take them to the computer for analysis after each test series which is recommended.)

All of the hogwash about needing the best technique to get sharp images is in fact just that, hogwash. If you have done well with the 5D3 or 7D2, you can get equally good results with the 5ds. I shot sports with it where you run and gun players across the field and never had any that were blurry due to to motion, even at 100%. I used ISO 800 and was targetting about 1/3200 sec on an overcast day just to give some perspective.

Another thing if you are going to purchase one or have already done so, Canon is offering a 13 month CarePAK for free with most DSLR models, 5ds and 5ds R included. It's not heavily advertised. There is no flashy flier in the box and no pop up ads when you register it online. However, you can get the service plan by activating it using the camera's serial number. (IE was the only browser that worked for me). I believe the offer started October 11. There are conditions so check it out first. Here is the link

http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/carepak-plus-offers

So back to point on the OP. Why did I choose to get the R model? I shoot Wildlife and sports. That's pretty much it. While I dont need super sharp detail for sports, I do for wildlife and I do require a 2nd body for sports. I need the most detail I can get for all of my critters and moire is not a big deal for what I shoot. When deciding on the 5ds or 5ds R, your main question you should ask is will moire be an issue for what you shoot the most? If not then get the R. If if your answer is sometimes, then the R may still be the best choice as you can filter it out in most post processing apps. If you shoot in a studio and cant control the clothing then perhaps the R is best left on the shelf.

Thats my 5 cents on an initial take...hope some of this was helpful.


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## ahsanford (Oct 27, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> Got a 5DSR for a very good price. Very happy so far.
> 
> Have not really had any time at all to use it so far, but soon I'll get a chance to put it to the test.
> 
> Basically, its a 5DIII on steroids with a number of small/big improvements - AF being the most important - and with amazing ability to crop when needed. Have not seen any moire but have also not done more than a few shots where it could be a problem.



Your comment above in red lost me. Aren't the 5D3 and 5DS/5DS R identical from an AF perspective? 

From TDP, see below, specs side by side -- 5DS on left, 5D3 on right.

From the spec list, I just thought a 5DS was a 5D3 with more pixels, better anti-shake / mirror slap options, and more processing power to move those bigger files and a few of the 7D2's viewfinder improvements. AF was not improved to my knowledge.

- A


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## East Wind Photography (Oct 27, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > Got a 5DSR for a very good price. Very happy so far.
> ...



Not the OP but the specs are similar. The 5ds is more like the 7D2 from an AF perspective. Both are similar to the 5D3 but 5ds and 7d2 have a few more extras such as iTR, facial recognition and 5ds also offers a blinking red AF mode so you can see the AF points in the dark. It's similar to the 1DX where it alternates between lighting up the AF points and metering. 5d3 does not offer that.


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## steven kessel (Oct 27, 2015)

I have a 5DS-R, which I use mostly for closeup photography of small wildlife -- insects, invertebrates, amphibians, and reptiles. It is an astonishing camera. When used correctly it produces detail that nothing else in its sensor size matches. I also own a 5Diii and the dynamic range of the 5DS-R is much superior, in my opinion. It also seems to capture colors more accurately and with a richness and depth that is unmatched.

Now, for the drawbacks. This is a camera that requires precision! One must get focus EXACTLY right. There is no forgiveness. The ability to render extraordinary detail also means that even a minimally out of focus shot will be perceived as a blurred mess. Any camera motion will also ruin the shot. One must shoot at a very high shutter speed, or with a flash, or on a tripod. Otherwise, all of those pixels become your enemy!

I love this camera. It has made me a better photographer. But, and fair warning to anyone who's tempted to buy it -- it will make you work harder to get a good shot than you've ever worked before. Do it right and you'll be delighted. Mess up just a little bit and your results will greatly disappoint you.


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## Maiaibing (Oct 27, 2015)

East Wind Photography said:


> ahsanford said:
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> > Maiaibing said:
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In addition to being more precise in daily use and also can be customized in many ways the 5D3 AF cannot. Also, what you cannot see from the spec list are things like the new - more accurate - spot focusing mode. 

Several reviews (most?) note that the AF has improved noticeably - and I agree.


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## RustyTheGeek (Oct 27, 2015)

Zeidora said:


> longtallkarl said:
> 
> 
> > i too bought a 5dsr when canonpricewatch had an early street price deal and b&h still hadn't filled their preorders. anyway, moving from a 5dii, i'm very pleased with the upgrade but still feel like i'm just scratching the surface of what it can do. i was initially worried about not seeing too much of a resolution difference unless i was working on a tripod, but that myth was soon dispelled. i have yet to have an issue with moire.
> ...


Interesting, I intentionally skipped the 5D2 and went from a 5D to a 5D3. I never saw the point to the 5D2. LOL!


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## East Wind Photography (Oct 27, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> East Wind Photography said:
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> > ahsanford said:
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Yes i always found the 5d3 to be quite accurate and so far i cannot tell the difference but ive only had the 5dsr for about a week now. There is another feature that was added that the 5d3 does not have and that is the ability to program a back button to do setting recall. I use one button for AF On and the other button to af on in spot mode. That way you can switch between default af mode and spot by just rolling your thumb. This was added in the 7d2 and nice to see its worked its way into the 5d world.

Lots of nice pluses in these models.


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## RustyTheGeek (Oct 27, 2015)

steven kessel said:


> I have a 5DS-R, which I use mostly for closeup photography of small wildlife -- insects, invertebrates, amphibians, and reptiles. It is an astonishing camera. When used correctly it produces detail that nothing else in its sensor size matches. I also own a 5Diii and the dynamic range of the 5DS-R is much superior, in my opinion. It also seems to capture colors more accurately and with a richness and depth that is unmatched.
> 
> Now, for the drawbacks. This is a camera that requires precision! One must get focus EXACTLY right. There is no forgiveness. The ability to render extraordinary detail also means that even a minimally out of focus shot will be perceived as a blurred mess. Any camera motion will also ruin the shot. One must shoot at a very high shutter speed, or with a flash, or on a tripod. Otherwise, all of those pixels become your enemy!
> 
> I love this camera. It has made me a better photographer. But, and fair warning to anyone who's tempted to buy it -- it will make you work harder to get a good shot than you've ever worked before. Do it right and you'll be delighted. Mess up just a little bit and your results will greatly disappoint you.



Thanks for this input Steve. I suspected this but rarely hear it mentioned. And since I primarily shoot event type things and challenging indoor/low light stuff, this would a deal killer for me. Besides, I just don't need high MP for anything I do anyway. In fact, after all this time, this is the first thread I've even read on these cameras and I'm even more convinced that waiting for the 5D4 is still my best move.


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## Hector1970 (Oct 27, 2015)

I haven't managed to use mine too much yet as its newly arrived.
I don't know if it's focusing is better than a 5DIII.
The 5DIII is pretty good so its hard to for me to say the 5DSR is better.
I would say the 5DSR gets it's focus correct.
I haven't seen any reason so far as to why you need to be more precise than a 5DIII.
I'm not the world's most fastidious photographer and I've not found the 5DSR any less forgiving than a 5DIII.
Camera movement is not good in either a 5DIII or a 5DSR
Shadow recovery I'd have to say is a big improvement.
The cropability is excellent.
Colour rendition is good. The photos look good out of it.
It's great if you are a pixel peeper


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## krautland (Oct 27, 2015)

TeT said:


> 5DS ... only. Everybody says it is great...



really? I have a friend who has it and she keeps whining about the supposedly terrible noise in higher ISO ranges, going so far as to label it unusable beyond ISO 1600. she said it was much worse than her 5D MKIII.


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## RustyTheGeek (Oct 27, 2015)

krautland said:


> TeT said:
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> > 5DS ... only. Everybody says it is great...
> ...



When I got my first 5D3 about 14 months after it released it was a POS on low-light focus. Very bad. I was really disappointed after reading about how GREAT the 5D3 was on low-light focus. I returned it as defective for exchange and when I received the replacement, it was a night and day difference. It still wasn't the miracle that some claimed but it was usable and it improved even more after a future firmware update. The 6D still whipped it on low-light but it wasn't as big of a difference after the update.

So have your friend consider a repair. It might just be a defect! Canon isn't perfect.


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## ahsanford (Oct 27, 2015)

krautland said:


> TeT said:
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> > 5DS ... only. Everybody says it is great...
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At a per pixel level, you are correct w.r.t. noise. 5D3 outperforms it.

So in good light / in a studio / on a tripod, the 5DS rigs deliver awesome detail and you get what you paid for.

But in poor light handheld, you may need to burn those pixels down to fight noise. So in that light, a 50 MP 5DS shot downsampled to 22MP compared against the 5D3 is -- depending on who you ask -- about a dead heat. 

Spinning it another way, you could say the 5DS is a 5D3, but with a special feature: 2.5X the resolution in lower ISO.

I don't own a 5DS, but that's what various reviewers have shared when studying 5DS noise. I welcome this thread's members who have shot both to corroborate or rebut that notion.

- A


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## East Wind Photography (Oct 27, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> krautland said:
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> > TeT said:
> ...



So the 5d3 does have larger pixels and therefore can capture more light compared to the background noise. Downsampling the 5ds will not change that. It will reduce the fine detail captured. In essence you cant create something that isnt there in the first place. The only way to get better signal to noise with smaller pixels is to reduce the noise floor. I dont believe they acheived that with the 50mp sensor.

In fact the pixels size on the 5ds is the same as the 7d2. Everything else being the same, both should have similar signal to noise in raw data.


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## ahsanford (Oct 27, 2015)

East Wind Photography said:


> So the 5d3 does have larger pixels and therefore can capture more light compared to the background noise. Downsampling the 5ds will not change that. It will reduce the fine detail captured. In essence you cant create something that isnt there in the first place. The only way to get better signal to noise with smaller pixels is to reduce the noise floor. I dont believe they acheived that with the 50mp sensor.
> 
> In fact the pixels size on the 5ds is the same as the 7d2. Everything else being the same, both should have similar signal to noise in raw data.



Case in point with the red text above. The 7D2 has worse noise than the 6D and 5D3, so at a pixel level, the lower res rigs should outperform from a noise perspective.

But Bryan Carnathan at TDP believes downsampling does combat noise:

_"My personal expectation was that, when compared at the pixel level, the 5Ds noise levels would be close to those of the not-long-prior released high end EOS 7D II APS-C DSLR and when the 50.6 MP image was scaled down to 5D III pixel dimensions, the 5Ds would have an advantage, producing noise levels similar to or better than the 5D Mark III. 

... [see samples in his noise comparisons]

When compared at native resolutions, 5Ds images are noisier than 5D III images. The differences, especially at higher ISO settings, are less than 1 stop. Down-sized to 5D III pixel dimension (using DPP, see "Standard Down-Sized to 5D III" in noise tool), 5Ds noise levels are essentially equal to full frame 5D III noise levels and even slightly better at the highest ISO settings. So, while Canon is not promoting this camera for its low light capabilities, I see it as one of the best options available with output size being comparable." _

Is this witch-doctor-y or is this a legitimate noise reduction move?

- A


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## East Wind Photography (Oct 27, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> East Wind Photography said:
> 
> 
> > So the 5d3 does have larger pixels and therefore can capture more light compared to the background noise. Downsampling the 5ds will not change that. It will reduce the fine detail captured. In essence you cant create something that isnt there in the first place. The only way to get better signal to noise with smaller pixels is to reduce the noise floor. I dont believe they acheived that with the 50mp sensor.
> ...



Ok so the difference i think here is that you are downsampling off camera and therefore also downsampling noise. I thoughtt you were refering to downsizing in camera to a lower resolution. Its also possible DPP is doing something as well. I dont discount his expertice but the question is can this be reproduced with other software other than DPP? It is an interesting concept for low light situations where 50mp resolution is not required.


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## Eldar (Oct 27, 2015)

The 5DS/R has better noise performance than many seem to think/believe. I have used it extensively since I got it and I am very impressed with this camera (the R). My son is now the happy owner of my 5DIII and the 1DX is only used for very low light and/or action photography. For everything else I prefer the 5DSR. I have had no moiré issues, compared to the 5DIII it has better AF, better shadow noise, better DR and I also believe the colours are better. On top of that you have resolution that gives fantastic large prints and/or lots of cropping options in post.

In an other thread, East Wind Photography asked for a ISO3200 shot. This is a crap image from an artistic point of view, but it fills the histogram and has lots of details. It is shot handheld 1/50s (no IS), f4.0, ISO5000 shot, with 0 NR applied. All settings are default LR, just exported to the size restrictions on CR (4MB). Anyone with a minimum of noise reduction skills will make this look good.


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## bdunbar79 (Oct 27, 2015)

East Wind Photography said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > krautland said:
> ...



That really makes no sense at all because that's not the way it works. It's the SENSOR size that counts. Yes the 5Ds and 7D2 have the same pixel size, but the 5Ds has a larger sensor. So the noise characteristic is better. You can't say "everything else being the same" in your statement but then have different sensor sizes, because everything ISN'T the same. The most important factor regarding noise isn't the same.


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## Stephen Melvin (Oct 27, 2015)

Eldar said:


> The 5DS/R has better noise performance than many seem to think/believe. I have used it extensively since I got it and I am very impressed with this camera (the R). My son is now the happy owner of my 5DIII and the 1DX is only used for very low light and/or action photography. For everything else I prefer the 5DSR. I have had no moiré issues, compared to the 5DIII it has better AF, better shadow noise, better DR and I also believe the colours are better. On top of that you have resolution that gives fantastic large prints and/or lots of cropping options in post.
> 
> In an other thread, East Wind Photography asked for a ISO3200 shot. This is a crap image from an artistic point of view, but it fills the histogram and has lots of details. It is shot handheld 1/50s (no IS), f4.0, ISO5000 shot, with 0 NR applied. All settings are default LR, just exported to the size restrictions on CR (4MB). Anyone with a minimum of noise reduction skills will make this look good.



That image has a startling amount of jpeg compression. It looks like a wicker basket! So it's really hard to judge this sample.


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## Eldar (Oct 27, 2015)

Stephen Melvin said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > The 5DS/R has better noise performance than many seem to think/believe. I have used it extensively since I got it and I am very impressed with this camera (the R). My son is now the happy owner of my 5DIII and the 1DX is only used for very low light and/or action photography. For everything else I prefer the 5DSR. I have had no moiré issues, compared to the 5DIII it has better AF, better shadow noise, better DR and I also believe the colours are better. On top of that you have resolution that gives fantastic large prints and/or lots of cropping options in post.
> ...


Unfortunately, that´s the consequence of cramming these large files into the size limitation. All I can say is that it is a fantastic camera and anyone with a potential interest should try it out. If the 5DIV or 1DX-II does not provide something significant, compared to the current models, I´ll probably keep my 1DX and get one more 5DSR.


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## East Wind Photography (Oct 27, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> East Wind Photography said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



Well only if you fill the frame with your subject on each sensor. If you select aps-c crop mode on the 5ds and back up you should see the same level of noise as your subject is now spread across the same area as in the 7d2. The only real benefit you get over the 7d2 is more pixels.


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## East Wind Photography (Oct 27, 2015)

East Wind Photography said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > East Wind Photography said:
> ...



So full disclosure here. I own the 5dsr and woukd not have bought it if i didnt think it was better. In fact i traded in my 5d3 to get it...no regrets. 

I'll see if i can run some high iso tests with the 7d2 and 5dsr in aps-c crop mode using the same subject and see if there is any noticable difference.


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## Larsskv (Oct 27, 2015)

East Wind Photography said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > East Wind Photography said:
> ...



The comparison that was debated, was between the 5DIII and the 5Ds. There should be no question that the 5Ds(r) has better high ISO performance, compared to the 5DIII or 6D, if you compare at similar output resolution/same print size. I have been very impressed by pictures taken with my 5Ds on higher ISOs. I think the colours are especially impressive. The attached image was accidentally taken at ISO 2000, because I didn´t check the exposure settings before I took the shot at 70 mm, (f/8 and 1/125 sek). I don´t have any good examples taken with higher ISOs yet.

I was really amazed how good the colour and noise behave in this image. Sure, if you look at 100% with no noise reduction, it is visible noise. With a little editing and downsized to 5000x3333 pixels, it could by some be mistanken for an ISO 100 shot. The attached shot is edited to taste, and saved at quality setting 70 in Lightroom.


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## strykapose (Oct 27, 2015)

5DS R for me. 



Bear Mountain Bridge by Sam Yee, on Flickr


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## bdunbar79 (Oct 28, 2015)

East Wind Photography said:


> East Wind Photography said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



Oh you have both? Cool.


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## East Wind Photography (Oct 28, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> East Wind Photography said:
> 
> 
> > East Wind Photography said:
> ...



i need the 7d2 for sports. The 5dsr is nice but at 5 fps its difficult to get the timing right.


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## East Wind Photography (Oct 28, 2015)

I just ran through some quick high iso tests and discovered somethig that i didnt know. The high iso noise reduction setting does in fact apply to RAW files, not just jpg. All of my tests were invalid due to inconsistent settings. So back to the drawing board...but for another day.

RAW does not seem to always be RAW.


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## takesome1 (Oct 28, 2015)

East Wind Photography said:


> I just ran through some quick high iso tests and discovered somethig that i didnt know. The high iso noise reduction setting does in fact apply to RAW files, not just jpg. All of my tests were invalid due to inconsistent settings. So back to the drawing board...but for another day.
> 
> RAW does not seem to always be RAW.



Can you elaborate on this? You seeing it in DPP? LR?

I have had mine about two months now. Here is something I have noticed but yet to test to see if my suspensions are correct, in LR the 5Ds R you can apply a huge amount of noise reduction. Of course this comes at the loss of resolution, but it appears to me just from observing the pictures I have been pp that if you down sample to the same file size as the 5D III it is never worse than the 5D III image. I have seen a few others mention this but haven't tested it out myself yet to see how much of an ISO advantage if any the 5D III may have over the 5Ds R. My suspension is that it doesn't after PP.


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## wockawocka (Oct 28, 2015)

I noticed with the crop mode overlay in camera these are carried over into camera raw so I'd imaging other settings are too.


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## East Wind Photography (Oct 28, 2015)

takesome1 said:


> East Wind Photography said:
> 
> 
> > I just ran through some quick high iso tests and discovered somethig that i didnt know. The high iso noise reduction setting does in fact apply to RAW files, not just jpg. All of my tests were invalid due to inconsistent settings. So back to the drawing board...but for another day.
> ...



No actually i was just viewing the images with microsoft image viewer. After seeing a major difference in noise, i retook a couple of shots in raw with the setting to the other extreme and the noise was removed from the raw file. Tested on both cameras and the same. So i need to decide on what setting to use as a baseline. I assume no high iso noise reduction would be best for testing but maybe in practicality it would be better to use some. Would need to compare how well in camera and PP noise filtering work independently....and perhaps even together.


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## East Wind Photography (Oct 28, 2015)

wockawocka said:


> I noticed with the crop mode overlay in camera these are carried over into camera raw so I'd imaging other settings are too.



Yes actually i think the crop mode setting just encodes it ito exif data. I Dont believe it actually excludes areas outside the frame. If your pp app reads it it should crop. If it doesnt then you need to redo the crop. Seems like its cheating a bit.


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## bdunbar79 (Oct 28, 2015)

That's really interesting.


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## East Wind Photography (Oct 28, 2015)

I re-ran my shots and the results are interesting and not quite what I expected. The comparisons here show the 5DSR on the left and 7D2 on the right. All were shot using my 85mm F1.2L II lens under a single 60watt CF bulb about 20 ft away at f 1.2. Shots were taken at 3200, 6400, 12800, 12800 -2 stops, and 12800 with in camera NR set to high. All were shot in RAW and snipped using s simple microsoft image viewer with no chance of any external manipulation or hidden settings such as what got me on my first go around with in camera settings. All images were shot from the same distance and cropped to show the same area at about 100%.

Amazingly to me the 7d2 seems to fair a bit better until we use the in camera Hi ISO Noise reduction and this seems to be where things change in favor slightly toward the 5dsR. Both use the Digic 6 so no exactly sure whats going on there...but its for the better.

Edit - Seems that the 5dsr also had AWB W set which accounts for the color balance difference.


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## takesome1 (Oct 28, 2015)

East Wind Photography said:


> I re-ran my shots and the results are interesting and not quite what I expected. The comparisons here show the 5DSR on the left and 7D2 on the right. All were shot using my 85mm F1.2L II lens under a single 60watt CF bulb about 20 ft away at f 1.2. Shots were taken at 3200, 6400, 12800, 12800 -2 stops, and 12800 with in camera NR set to high. All were shot in RAW and snipped using s simple microsoft image viewer with no chance of any external manipulation or hidden settings such as what got me on my first go around with in camera settings. All images were shot from the same distance and cropped to show the same area at about 100%.
> 
> Amazingly to me the 7d2 seems to fair a bit better until we use the in camera Hi ISO Noise reduction and this seems to be where things change in favor slightly toward the 5dsR. Both use the Digic 6 so no exactly sure whats going on there...but its for the better.
> 
> Edit - Seems that the 5dsr also had AWB W set which accounts for the color balance difference.



Interesting.

I would be interested in seeing the side by side shot in JPEG. 
The reason is I think they would both be equally processed and it might give a better representation of the results we could expect in our work flow. 
I know from shooting both that there is a fair amount of noise correction that happens with both in JPEG. I think the 5Ds R can handle more correction than the 7D II.


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## East Wind Photography (Oct 28, 2015)

takesome1 said:


> East Wind Photography said:
> 
> 
> > I re-ran my shots and the results are interesting and not quite what I expected. The comparisons here show the 5DSR on the left and 7D2 on the right. All were shot using my 85mm F1.2L II lens under a single 60watt CF bulb about 20 ft away at f 1.2. Shots were taken at 3200, 6400, 12800, 12800 -2 stops, and 12800 with in camera NR set to high. All were shot in RAW and snipped using s simple microsoft image viewer with no chance of any external manipulation or hidden settings such as what got me on my first go around with in camera settings. All images were shot from the same distance and cropped to show the same area at about 100%.
> ...



Im pretty sure thats the case. You can tell from the 12800 comparisons that the noise on the 7d2 is blockier and has quite a few solid artifacts. On the 5dsr it is more random. These are jpgs but AFTER they were enlarged on screen and snipped with the snippet tool. Any jpg effects here would be negligible. 

I only create jpgs in my workflow as the last process before publication. I am more interested in wether in camera NR is better or worse than LR or DxO since it can be done to raw images in camera.


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## privatebydesign (Oct 28, 2015)

Your assertion that "no chance of any external manipulation or hidden settings such as what got me on my first go around with in camera settings" is invalid, the WB settings difference proves that.

The only way you can view native RAW files is in something like dcraw, short of that you have to know, definitively, which tags any individual viewer will honor.


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## East Wind Photography (Oct 28, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> Your assertion that "no chance of any external manipulation or hidden settings such as what got me on my first go around with in camera settings" is invalid, the WB settings difference proves that.
> 
> The only way you can view native RAW files is in something like dcraw, short of that you have to know, definitively, which tags any individual viewer will honor.



Well i agree on the viewer part. However the WB setting was internal, not external and was my fault for not checking that. Still i dont think it has much affect on the noise reduction....but who knows what the digic is doing.


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## midluk (Oct 28, 2015)

Are you sure your image viewer does not just show the embedded jpeg preview of the raw image?


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## East Wind Photography (Oct 28, 2015)

midluk said:


> Are you sure your image viewer does not just show the embedded jpeg preview of the raw image?



I dont believe microsoft image viewer is that sophisticated. Though i could be wrong. ive never had ms image viewer apply noise reduction on any image before. Its not an editor and has no provisions for even adjusting image brightness.


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## takesome1 (Oct 28, 2015)

East Wind Photography said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > East Wind Photography said:
> ...



What I wonder is how equal the comparisons are in RAW, with firm ware of the two different bodies. The viewer may be reading each differently because of differences Canon has put in the programming. I don't think it would matter how you made the JPG, in camera or other, as long as both are PP to the fullest extent possible. Then compare the two to see what finished product you could get.

But;

To me it probably wouldn't mater to me. I have both bodies and I am not going to use the 7D II unless I need its unique functions for a specific job. Any other time I would be using the 5Ds R.


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## ahsanford (Oct 28, 2015)

With all this noise discussion, why aren't we using TDP's super handy noise comparison charts, which includes turning/off all form of noise reduction, scaling a 5DS down to 5D3 levels, etc.?

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Camera-Noise.aspx?Camera=980&Test=0&ISO=100&CameraComp=963&TestComp=0&ISOComp=0

Look at the pull-down under 'Standard' and tweak what you like. Have at it, yo.

Bryan Carnathan (who runs that site) is also fantastic about responding to technical questions about his methods, exactly how he processed things, etc. Cut him an e-mail if you have questions.

- A


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## privatebydesign (Oct 29, 2015)

East Wind Photography said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Your assertion that "no chance of any external manipulation or hidden settings such as what got me on my first go around with in camera settings" is invalid, the WB settings difference proves that.
> ...



WB is not "internal" to a RAW file, it is a tag attached in the embedded sidecar file, if a viewer is honouring WB information it is reading that sidecar file, who knows if it is honoring NR tags and or reading the embedded jpeg?

In truth the only relevant comparison is a fully and optimally post processed file vs another optimally processed RAW file both to your personal specific end uses, and coming from different cameras would imply different processing for each to achieve optimal. To be sure 'RAW' is pretty meaningless, it is only the end result we can achieve with that data that is relevant.


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## East Wind Photography (Oct 29, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> East Wind Photography said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



Ok so i can buy the concept that what i may be seeing is an embedded jpg image. So in that case the comparisons here are still reasonable, just not pure raw. Only the one pair had NR applied, the rest had it disabled. The original comparison was that the 5dsr would have less noise because it is a full frame sensor and the attempt was to show that the same subject at the same distance on the 7d2 would have similar noise levels as the 5dsr. Both sensors share the same pixel size. From what i have been seeing, the noise is not less on the 5dsr. The pattern is different and perhaps easier to reduce algorythmically.

If you were to change your distance such that the subject filled the frame on the 5dsr, yes the noise would be smaller and less visible. I actually wish instillhad my 5diii to compare as well. It shoud fair a stop or two better due to its larger pixel size.

Anyway, in end as you say, its the finished product that matters the most, no matter how you get there.


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