# necessity of photography school



## Dark Reality (Dec 19, 2012)

A few photography school related questions.

for those who went to school, do you feel like you learned a great amount, or was it more of a business decision to have a diploma.

And from 1 to 10, where would you say you were at before and then after 1 = not knowing you can take off the lens on a slr. 10 = Neuroanatomist 

And lastly, could you have learned the same from the internet and experienced friends?

Edit- I do consider photography a form of art and when I said learn, I meant more than just the tech aspect.


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## verysimplejason (Dec 19, 2012)

Dark Reality said:


> A few photography school related questions.
> 
> for those who went to school, do you feel like you learned a great amount, or was it more of a business decision to have a diploma.
> 
> ...



Having a mentor that can share experiences is the one of the best way to learn other than learning directly from experience. It's just the same when you go to school. You might have been taught the same subject and same amount of theories as that with other students but it doesn't mean that what you learn is on par with what others learn. It always depends on the person on how fast can he assimilate the knowledge and put them to use in the real world. That said, you'd still be better off learning from a guru. Of course any avenues of learning is always welcome.

One more thing, please learn more on the art of real photography. Sometimes, we tend to be pixel-peepers/tech-heads. There's nothing wrong with that except that if we do that, we are forgetting the real essence of why we are taking pictures.


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## Krob78 (Dec 19, 2012)

Dark Reality said:


> A few photography school related questions.
> 
> for those who went to school, do you feel like you learned a great amount, or was it more of a business decision to have a diploma.
> 
> ...


The more you learn, the better equipped you can be! Then again, there is the "School of Hard Clicks", which has worked out well for many! School may take some time off the learning curve though!


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## ChilledXpress (Dec 19, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> One more thing, please learn more on the art of real photography. Sometimes, we tend to be pixel-peepers/tech-heads. There's nothing wrong with that except that if we do that, we are forgetting the real essence of why we are taking pictures.



+1

I really think there is a huge difference between knowing what a camera is technically and being a classically trained photographer... Those who go to photography school are learning far more than the AF systems and MTF charts of cameras and lenses. Anyone can take photos of color charts and rattle off spec sheets, this is not what photography school is about. If this is what you are referring to... then you're really talking about Photography 101 not photography school. You don't need to go to photography school for that. I received my md/phd after about 14 years of school... along the way I took more than a few classes about photography and art. I know about cameras and lenses... is that photography school. Absolutely not... I would never say that was even close to equivalent. Photography school encompasses so much more than the technical aspects of photography. Does that mean you can't be a photographer without formal school... No, and that really is my answer to your second question.


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## bchernicoff (Dec 19, 2012)

I have wondered about this too. Over the last 4 years or so, I have gone from barely an SLR knowledge to having a nearly complete technical understanding. I would say that I have mastered candid or outdoor photography. I know how to do basic fill flash just fine.

I've bought a basic studio strobe set, some reflectors and modifiers and am trying to learn pro-quality lighting. Right now, I'm pretty terrible. I've wondered if taking some classes would be the way to really learn lighting. I'd really like to learn more of the artistic side as well.


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## Dark Reality (Dec 19, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> Having a mentor that can share experiences is the one of the best way to learn other than learning directly from experience. It's just the same when you go to school. You might have been taught the same subject and same amount of theories as that with other students but it doesn't mean that what you learn is on par with what others learn. It always depends on the person on how fast can he assimilate the knowledge and put them to use in the real world. That said, you'd still be better off learning from a guru. Of course any avenues of learning is always welcome.
> 
> One more thing, please learn more on the art of real photography. Sometimes, we tend to be pixel-peepers/tech-heads. There's nothing wrong with that except that if we do that, we are forgetting the real essence of why we are taking pictures.



I didn't say it, but that's exactly what I meant. I don't want to go to school to learn just about sensors and autofocus, the internet is already full of that. But I love to learn about photography in general. But I consider ita expense just like anything else, and I'm trying to determine the value of it. That's why I picked to questions I asked. If money was of no concern, I would already be there.


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## RS2021 (Dec 19, 2012)

Going to photography school is the same as going to "art school" in a more broader sense ... I guess they hand out photography diplomas in art schools but I digress. A couple of art history courses and may be a specialized course for 3 or 4 credits on top in a regular liberal arts curriculum will do more good... Granted over priced in this context. But most proprietary "art schools" in small communities are run by people who are more ignorant about art than Mr. Squeers-like schoolmasters from Dickensian novels.

I think art of any kind stands out when it has a unique and personal view point. By training students to mostly conform, we blunt innovation and uniqueness. If I had a nickel for every time I saw a shot of a long straight road going into infinity in a perspective shot... I'll be Donald Trump (hopefully without the badger hair). Most of what an "art school" can teach can be acquired from public sources, me thinks. 

And here is a scene from the classic Britcom "Red Dwarf" 

Lister: I went to art college. 
Rimmer: You!!!
Lister: Yeah. 
Rimmer: How did _you_ get into art college? 
Lister: The normal way you get into art college. The same old usual, boring, normal way you get in. Failed my exams and applied. They snapped me up.


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## bchernicoff (Dec 19, 2012)

I guess, I should have prefaced my comments with my background. I am a software engineer and work full-time consulting with the federal gov in DC. Photography is my main hobby. I wouldn't be interested in getting a degree, just taking a few classes to broaden my skills.


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## Lawliet (Dec 19, 2012)

Dark Reality said:


> And lastly, could you have learned the same from the internet and experienced friends?



Most of what i've learned about photography was/is from socializing with painters, designers, editors, videographers&playwrights, musicians&poets, historians.
Internet? Discussions are not nearly as immersive and with forums/interest groups you risk running into the old photo club problem: everybody copies one idea and you find yourself railroaded, chasing pointless trends. Same problem with workshops&tutorials, people end up parroting what they've learned.

If you want to attend a photography school make sure they offer open challenges instead of answers.


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## awinphoto (Dec 19, 2012)

I went to Brooks Institute of Photography a decade ago... Photography schools will give you exposure, it will give you a place to cut your teeth, it will teach you how to succeed... It will give you honest critiques you may not get from clients, friends, and acquaintances... And for SOME people, they need instruction, they need to know the difference between a split lighting, loop, Rembrandt, butterfly/hollywood lighting... broad vs short, softbox vs umbrella vs reflector... With photography, there are so many ways to do the same thing and so many different tools to get there... Yes, you can always learn online from places like creativelive. Yes, you can always get a mentor, if you can find an honest mentor, and slowly work your way up... Yes, you can do it for cheap and eventually get to the same place... Will you get the same experience? maybe... maybe not.. Will you get the experience not only with SLR's/DSLR's, but medium format, large format, scanning backs, 3 shots systems... will you get get access to cutting edge equipment and systems... Going to school forces you to know how to shoot multiple camera systems, lenses, models, lighting, locations... just assisting for a photographer or learning from a photographer or online CAN isolate you to a camera system, or a lighting condition or set up... To the instructor, mentors, photographers style but also habits, good or bad... 

I have grown immensely since I left school and have evolved and moved with the times as equipment changes and technology changes... Could I have gotten to where I am without school... maybe... Can i have learned from others for a fraction of a cost... maybe... Would i have the experience and knowledge of my exposure tables and be able to shoot anywhere anyplace any condition... maybe... There's a lot of maybes... not a lot of certainties... Do you need a degree in photography to get a commercial job or a wedding client or two or three? Hell no... But you better know what the hell you are doing if you get those jobs or you will be in a world of trouble...


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## awinphoto (Dec 19, 2012)

One last food for thought... If you assist a photographer and you mess up somewhere, you may get fired or get docked in pay... If you shoot a wedding even for a friend or acquaintance, even for a simple shoot and burn, and you miss a shot or two or a dozen... or underexpose or whatever... you can be blacklisted, Sued for not only what you have been paid, if any, and punitive damages if you didn't have a contract in place... There's actually a big case right now a shoot and burner is being blackmailed for something like 40 thousand dollars give or take because he didn't have a contract and it bit him in the butt... You can also get negative referrals which depending on your market, could put you out of business or force you to move... In school, you mess up on an assignment, you get an F and you reshoot if you're allowed. You do not get the weight of the world crashing down on you because you are cutting your teeth and doing the hard knock shots that everyone goes through... It's better having one person ridicule you and make you a better photographer rather than early on having one mistake ruin your career.


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## verysimplejason (Dec 19, 2012)

Dark Reality said:


> verysimplejason said:
> 
> 
> > Having a mentor that can share experiences is the one of the best way to learn other than learning directly from experience. It's just the same when you go to school. You might have been taught the same subject and same amount of theories as that with other students but it doesn't mean that what you learn is on par with what others learn. It always depends on the person on how fast can he assimilate the knowledge and put them to use in the real world. That said, you'd still be better off learning from a guru. Of course any avenues of learning is always welcome.
> ...



Pick your ways and means. Photography school is just one avenue of learning. It's one of the fastest and not to mention the credibility that you'll get from attending one. Sure, it's not a guarantee that you will learn but for most people, I think they will learn a lot just by going to school. Your friends can also be good teachers if you are sure that they have the necessary knowledge to impart. All in all, it's up to you to analyze the situation. Just be reminded that a diploma or certificate is certainly worth the money especially if you intend to earn from photography. Having said that, a good portfolio is also as good or better than a diploma or certificate.


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## cayenne (Dec 19, 2012)

bchernicoff said:


> I have wondered about this too. Over the last 4 years or so, I have gone from barely an SLR knowledge to having a nearly complete technical understanding. I would say that I have mastered candid or outdoor photography. I know how to do basic fill flash just fine.
> 
> I've bought a basic studio strobe set, some reflectors and modifiers and am trying to learn pro-quality lighting. Right now, I'm pretty terrible. I've wondered if taking some classes would be the way to really learn lighting. I'd really like to learn more of the artistic side as well.



Same here. I love to collect tech and toys. 
But like with things like Guitars, etc...I've taken lessons in the past. Of course, there is a TON of info to self teach on the internet, and I do that, but I would love to get into a class or system with real people showing me things, at least as a good foundation to build from.

I don't find much locally as far as formal classes, but after the first of the year, I am going to try to contact the local camera club I've found in the NOLA area...and see how that works out for me.

If one of the community colleges gave a class in photo 101, in the evenings, I'd love to take it...not so much for credit but just to learn...


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## jhaces (Dec 19, 2012)

I am mostly self-taught in most things technical. However, I did sign up last year to a photo course that covered from the very basics (this-shiny-end-takes-pictures, kind of thing) and while some weeks it was decidedly very boring, I still think it was one of the best choices I've had. Being in contact with other photographers (aspiring, mostly) and the sense of belonging into a photo-community has been awesome.

Full disclosure, after the course I signed up for I actually received a job offering at that school and have been teaching since. I have had the chance of dropping into lecures, courses, etc and the chats with the students and other photographers are really illuminating.

Bottom line, I absolutely recommend signing up for a course. Maybe you will understand better things you think you know pretty good, or maybe even learn some new tricks (perhaps not theoretical, but practical aspects of photo) and the photo-community is decidedly a plus! Even if theory-wise you learn nothing new.


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## ChilledXpress (Dec 19, 2012)

Dark Reality said:


> And from 1 to 10, where would you say you were at before and then after 1 = not knowing you can take off the lens on a slr. 10 = Neuroanatomist
> 
> Edit- I do consider photography a form of art and when I said learn, I meant more than just the tech aspect.



Your scale should reflect that edit. No disrespect meant to Neuroanatomist but more like...

1 = not knowing you can take off the lens on a slr. 1000 = Mann, Friedlander, Avedon, Leibovitz, Cartier-Bresson... etc 

...and many of them never went to "school".


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## Plato the Wise (Dec 19, 2012)

I don't have a photography degree, but I do have a BFA from the School of Visual Arts (SVA) in painting and sculpture. Photography was part of our curriculum and I learned a lot in the classes. 

In fact, many of the disciplines we now work on digitally in photoshop have their roots in traditional darkroom techniques. The tools and filters at times are even named after the original techniques.

Not to mention the art of photography that is outside of the technique itself that is way more important. Composition, color theory, creative thinking and problem solving to name a few.

Could you learn all of that on your own? Possibly - but then again you could learn any discipline on your own. It might take you a lifetime to learn what you could learn in 4 years of a BFA photography program.

If you are just looking for continuing education classes, most community colleges, universities, and art colleges do offer classes. And like someone stated earlier, you will have access to equipment that you wouldn't normally be exposed to.

Hope that helps.


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## awinphoto (Dec 19, 2012)

ChilledXpress said:


> Dark Reality said:
> 
> 
> > And from 1 to 10, where would you say you were at before and then after 1 = not knowing you can take off the lens on a slr. 10 = Neuroanatomist
> ...



It's funny how hindsight works... before school, I thought I was pretty decent... maybe a 6-7... I developed my own film, dark room, etc... but after school, I realized i was no where near where I thought I was when first started and was closer to a 2-3... And now, being out of school for so long, I have grown since the digital revolution and all the advances in technology... Every time I think I'm a 9-10, something new comes out, a new facet in technology occurs, a new AF system, a new learning curve occurs... The more I learn, the more I know I need to keep learning... 

I heard a phrase i love... dont worry about not being good enough photographer... there will ALWAYS be a better photographer somewhere... and even the masters in photography cannot come close to the works of God. 

Dont get bogged down into thinking there is ever a 10 on the knowledge scale... things are always changing...


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## PackLight (Dec 19, 2012)

Dark Reality said:


> Edit- I do consider photography a form of art and when I said learn, I meant more than just the tech aspect.



Learning the tech side of it would be very educational and would be helpful if you wanted to be a camera salesman. As a photographer I think it is useless information unless you know how you can apply the information in your vision. 

I would prefer the artsie fartsie classes over the technical ones. It is easy for me as a gear head to look at all the data and figure out how things work, I can get that by reading, research and the internet. Putting it all together in a vision and creating a beautiful picture, I find that a bit tougher for my analytical mind.


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## pdirestajr (Dec 19, 2012)

Plato the Wise said:


> I don't have a photography degree, but I do have a BFA from the School of Visual Arts (SVA) in painting and sculpture. Photography was part of our curriculum and I learned a lot in the classes.
> 
> In fact, many of the disciplines we now work on digitally in photoshop have their roots in traditional darkroom techniques. The tools and filters at times are even named after the original techniques.
> 
> ...



+100

I also went to SVA and got a BFA majoring in illustration. Never turned on a computer or shot a frame of film (even though I took a darkroom class) in 4 years of school. Now I am a professional graphic designer and love photography above all other forms of art.

The point is, art is art. It's all visual communication. Don't get so focused on the current tools you are using. The concepts of form, composition, color theory, etc. transfer to different mediums.

Since I have that art foundation, for me, learning a program or a new "system" is the easy part. Anyone can master a piece of technology.


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## pdirestajr (Dec 19, 2012)

Ray2021 said:


> Going to photography school is the same as going to "art school" in a more broader sense ... I guess they hand out photography diplomas in art schools but I digress. A couple of art history courses and may be a specialized course for 3 or 4 credits on top in a regular liberal arts curriculum will do more good... Granted over priced in this context. But most proprietary "art schools" in small communities are run by people who are more ignorant about art than Mr. Squeers-like schoolmasters from Dickensian novels.
> 
> I think art of any kind stands out when it has a unique and personal view point. By training students to mostly conform, we blunt innovation and uniqueness. If I had a nickel for every time I saw a shot of a long straight road going into infinity in a perspective shot... I'll be Donald Trump (hopefully without the badger hair). Most of what an "art school" can teach can be acquired from public sources, me thinks.
> 
> ...



Disagree.


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## awinphoto (Dec 19, 2012)

PackLight said:


> Dark Reality said:
> 
> 
> > Edit- I do consider photography a form of art and when I said learn, I meant more than just the tech aspect.
> ...



Not as useless as you would think... Think of it like this... Your shooting a couple outdoors, open sun, you set your exposure... all of a sudden, a cloud comes overhead... you need to instinctively know to compensate... is it 1 stop or 2? Is it a thick light killing cloud or a thin softbox style cloud... Then you go into an open shade... what affect does that have not only on exposure but color? Maybe you want to throw on a polarizer... maybe a sun filter... 1/3 stop or 1/2... maybe you switch lenses to a macro lenses to do artsie fartsie shots of your clients eyes... your macro so your losing light... you need to know to compensate... This basic stuff is stuff a lot of "pros" miss on a daily occurrence... this is the stuff you get hammered into your head from day 1 and this is what will be the difference in if you get "that shot" or you dont... It will make the difference if your considered a shoot and burner or highly regarding professional commanding top dollar... Sometimes it does matter... Technical stuff is necessary, but it isn't everything...


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## Larry (Dec 19, 2012)

[=Plato the Wise =]

Isn't that redundant? ???


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## PackLight (Dec 19, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> PackLight said:
> 
> 
> > Dark Reality said:
> ...



Well I think your comments fall under the last part of the sentence which says "unless you can apply the information in your vision". But the techie stuff runs deeper than this on CR and often revolves around things such as sensor and lens comparisons and how they work. Some things are nice to know, but you need to ask yourself how does this apply to what I want to do?


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## robbymack (Dec 19, 2012)

I wouldn't say school is unnecessary however school simply provides you an avenue for learning. I don't think anything can replace simply shooting and being critiqued. For that school is great but not something you couldn't pick up through several local venues like photo clubs, other working pros, and of course the Internet. Are some better than others, sure, but do t dilude yourself into thinking school is the only answer. Since this is only a hobby for most of us the easiest way is to just put yourself out there. Find a local pro who's work you like and see if you can pick his brain, maybe offer to help in his studio (for free) from time to time. If your into event see if you can score a few second shooting roles. I guess my point is there are plenty of ways to learn. Don't get trapped by just one.


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## Caps18 (Dec 19, 2012)

I know enough to l know that there is a lot of things I don't know. And, I've looked at enough photo books to realize that it takes a special eye to look at something and 'see' the photo from a different angle or framing. 

The classes like DSLR camera controls, software post-processing, studio lighting, wedding, landscape, etc. would all have details that I don't know and could learn. But, even with a bunch of classes, it takes practice (and being in the right locations) to get really good.


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## awinphoto (Dec 19, 2012)

PackLight said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > PackLight said:
> ...



Fair enough... you have to have the vision and apply the technique to get the shot... I'm sure ansel adams would not be nearly as infamous if he made mistakes like missing exposures due to environment conditions... With that said, as a working photographer, from shooting a wedding, lighting is always changing, and you realize the couple rarely remembers the day because it goes by like a blur, so they rely on you for their memories... you cannot miss shots... and you would be surprised how commonplace that is... In commercial shots, if an art director, who is on scene, see's an out-take and it isn't up to snuff, you could be cut and replaced in a heartbeat... your just a dollar sign to them... for what I do, this stuff is VERY relevant in every day shooting... and dont think this is one of the things i exploit when i market to new clients... Do you want a photographer that gets the shot every time, or someone who wont... it is what it is...


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## PackLight (Dec 19, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> I'm sure ansel adams would not be nearly as infamous if he made mistakes like missing exposures due to environment conditions...



"Twelve significant photographs in any one year is a good crop."
Ansel Adams

I am sure he had a few bad exposures.
I wonder what he would have said about DxO scores. :


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## bvukich (Dec 19, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> It's funny how hindsight works... before school, I thought I was pretty decent... maybe a 6-7... I developed my own film, dark room, etc... but after school, I realized i was no where near where I thought I was when first started and was closer to a 2-3... And now, being out of school for so long, I have grown since the digital revolution and all the advances in technology... Every time I think I'm a 9-10, something new comes out, a new facet in technology occurs, a new AF system, a new learning curve occurs... The more I learn, the more I know I need to keep learning...



What you've observed about your own photographic progression is a very real thing, and has been studied and written about numerous times. The less someone knows about a subject the less accurately they can judge their own skill/knowledge in that subject. It's the old "you don't know what you don't know".


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## Chuck Alaimo (Dec 19, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> PackLight said:
> 
> 
> > awinphoto said:
> ...



I think it's all about how we individually learn. Some need that school based, beat it into you or you won't learn it method. But if your a driven, if you actually want to learn - things like gauging the changing lighting are totally learnable just by shooting regular, analyzing what your doing - making mistakes but being open enough to learn from the mistakes - whther it be going home, reviewing seeing oddities then reading articles, then going out the next day - or having an instructor beat it into your head. So i guess it would really depend on the person, how do they learn best?


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## pdirestajr (Dec 19, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> I'm sure ansel adams would not be nearly as infamous if he made mistakes like missing exposures due to environment conditions...



"Infamous"? Sorry, pet peeve of mine.


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## PackLight (Dec 19, 2012)

pdirestajr said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure ansel adams would not be nearly as infamous if he made mistakes like missing exposures due to environment conditions...
> ...



Miss use, but;

Sorry, the internet Grammar Police have always been a pet peeve of mine.


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## natureshots (Dec 19, 2012)

ChilledXpress said:


> Dark Reality said:
> 
> 
> > And from 1 to 10, where would you say you were at before and then after 1 = not knowing you can take off the lens on a slr. 10 = Neuroanatomist
> ...


You forgot Ken Rockwell.


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## 7enderbender (Dec 19, 2012)

Dark Reality said:


> A few photography school related questions.
> 
> for those who went to school, do you feel like you learned a great amount, or was it more of a business decision to have a diploma.
> 
> ...




I don't know from first-hand experience how things play out but here are my thoughts as a side-business photographer with a full-time "day job". I'm a strong believer in education. And I used to buy into degrees (literally and figuratively speaking). And there is something to be said about degrees. They can open doors. They can help you structure your education. But ultimately you're responsible for what you know. There are people who make it through well regarded programs without ever really figuring stuff out for them. Others may get the maximum out of there hard earned money and multiply it later.

So what do you need to learn to run a successful photo business? One would hope a good baseline understanding of the technical aspects of photography. Honestly, I think you can get 90% of that for free (not considering time and materials here). Then there is knowledge about "arts" in imagery in general. Might be worth taking a few classes for that I suppose to get the first hand input from a good teacher or other mentor.
And then there is the business in "photo business". In my observation that's where a lot of photographers lack. Read the good (!) books on pricing theory and throw away everything that uses the words "cost plus markup" anywhere. Take marketing classes and such. See what your local small business associations etc offer for free. Find a mentor at the local chamber of commerce who may not be in any related line of business. You get the idea. If anything look for joint degrees that don't just focus on how to take pictures and set up lights but provide other management skills.

I have an MBA from a reputable business school. I like to think that it has paid off but I can't prove that 100%. My wife used to be a teacher and we now homeschools our children. So it's fair to say that my views on institutionalized education has changed over time.

The most successful people I know run their own businesses and had rather colorful educational paths in related fields but not necessarily in a "trained as XYZ" way.


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## pdirestajr (Dec 19, 2012)

PackLight said:


> pdirestajr said:
> 
> 
> > awinphoto said:
> ...



Haha, Fair enough. Just having some fun.


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## Plato the Wise (Dec 19, 2012)

Larry said:


> [=Plato the Wise =]
> 
> Isn't that redundant? ???



Plato the Wise is not redundant. Plato is a person - or a noun - and he is wise - or the adjective that describes the noun. Besides, no one ever uses that name because most people don't even know who Plato is. As a result, I don't have a silly name, such as Canon_Shooter11562738.


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## distant.star (Dec 19, 2012)

.
These are the kinds of things I kept thinking as I read this thread. In addition to basic critical thinking, the greatest power of formal education is to enlighten you about everything you DO NOT know. A good school cannot teach anyone all they need to know, but you sure better come out of a school knowing everything you need to be working on. You should have an overview of your field that enables you to know where to put your everyday learning energies. This is especially true of photography as your learning will take place throughout your lifetime.





bvukich said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > It's funny how hindsight works... before school, I thought I was pretty decent... maybe a 6-7... I developed my own film, dark room, etc... but after school, I realized i was no where near where I thought I was when first started and was closer to a 2-3... And now, being out of school for so long, I have grown since the digital revolution and all the advances in technology... Every time I think I'm a 9-10, something new comes out, a new facet in technology occurs, a new AF system, a new learning curve occurs... The more I learn, the more I know I need to keep learning...
> ...


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## Plato the Wise (Dec 19, 2012)

pdirestajr said:


> Plato the Wise said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have a photography degree, but I do have a BFA from the School of Visual Arts (SVA) in painting and sculpture. Photography was part of our curriculum and I learned a lot in the classes.
> ...



What year did you graduate?


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## Plato the Wise (Dec 19, 2012)

> Fair enough... you have to have the vision and apply the technique to get the shot... I'm sure ansel adams would not be nearly as infamous if he made mistakes like missing exposures due to environment conditions...



Ansel Adams did miss exposures. If you went to school or read any of his work you would know that.


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## schmule (Dec 19, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> Not as useless as you would think... Think of it like this... Your shooting a couple outdoors, open sun, you set your exposure... all of a sudden, a cloud comes overhead... you need to instinctively know to compensate... is it 1 stop or 2? Is it a thick light killing cloud or a thin softbox style cloud... Then you go into an open shade... what affect does that have not only on exposure but color?



awinphoto - do you also change WB on the fly or fix it in PP?


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## awinphoto (Dec 19, 2012)

schmule said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Not as useless as you would think... Think of it like this... Your shooting a couple outdoors, open sun, you set your exposure... all of a sudden, a cloud comes overhead... you need to instinctively know to compensate... is it 1 stop or 2? Is it a thick light killing cloud or a thin softbox style cloud... Then you go into an open shade... what affect does that have not only on exposure but color?
> ...



99% of the time I change them on the fly... my goal is to do as little PP as possible as that goes against my bottom line...


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## awinphoto (Dec 19, 2012)

Plato the Wise said:


> > Fair enough... you have to have the vision and apply the technique to get the shot... I'm sure ansel adams would not be nearly as infamous if he made mistakes like missing exposures due to environment conditions...
> 
> 
> 
> Ansel Adams did miss exposures. If you went to school or read any of his work you would know that.



I'm sure he did that from the odd time to time, but as I mentioned before, film was and is much more tougher than digital... no instant gratification, no histograms, live view... you had to have your exposure dialed in using math and meters... zone photography, much like what he did, you do a lot of testing, bracketing, etc... There's a difference between missed exposures made by error and missed exposures done in testing and experimenting. And quite frankly, what I would deem sellable and acceptable and what he would are 2 separate monsters =)


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## agierke (Dec 19, 2012)

this is a difficult question to answer as it really depends on so many variables (individual aspiration, type of educational institution, curriculum, quality and philosophy of the individual educators, etc). that being said, i will offer my perspective.

my particular experience started at a small 2 year college that was backed by both Pratt and Corcoran, though i began attending in only its second year of existence so the curriculum was being developed as we attended (this turned out to be a benefit in hindsight). i graduated with an associates and then enrolled at the University of the Arts the following fall. over that summer i began assisting a high end commercial photographer in Philly about 25 hours a week (which i continued to do throughout the remainder of my schooling). after graduating with my BFA, i continued assisting and began working in a commercial lab. after about 2 years i was invited to teach continuing education classes at my original school and often interacted with the degree students there. eventually i was invited to become an instructor at the University of the Arts and just wrapped up my 13th semester there. i have essentially participated in all sides of the questioned posed.

much has changed since i first began attending art school with both the photography industry and the industry of education.

i would say above all else, it depends greatly on the individual as to whether formal education in photography is worthwhile AND what that individual's aspirations in photography are. after that, the type of institution, its curriculum, and the quality of its educators can have a profound impact on whether the investment in that education is worth it.

if the assumption is that the individual has the highest aspirations in photography (whether it be in a commercial or fine art venue), then yes formal education can be extremely valuable....BUT only if the quality of an institutions curriculum and its educators are on par with the individual's aspirations. there are many talented students who wash out because they cannot handle the rigors of pursuing a successful career in photography and there are many institutions that will provide an education but that education may fall well short of preparing the student to successfully enter the world of PROFESSIONAL photography. 

aside from that, mentorship, camera clubs, and continuing education classes may provide minute benefits in the short term but in my experience they very rarely provide the type of information that would propel someone towards real long term success as they are typically run by individuals with limited knowledge, experience, and success. camera clubs are particularly suspect and are pretty well despised by reputable professionals and educators. 

the reality of photography (imo) is that it is a complex and diverse subject that simply takes a lifetime to master. the very annoying trend these days (which has been exasperated with the advent of digital) is that photography is easy and can be learned quickly. so many people out there want near instant results whether it be a client or an aspiring photographer. sub par photography is easy and happens often. masterful photography takes a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience and is becoming more and more rare.

so in the end it really depends on what you feel you need to be educated in and what your end goals are. if you just want to learn some new tricks then there's probably a website out there or a class you can take. if you want to be the very best photographer you can be, then the education never ends and you should be actively getting it from every venue you can possibly gain access to.


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## Hobby Shooter (Dec 19, 2012)

Plato the Wise said:


> Larry said:
> 
> 
> > [=Plato the Wise =]
> ...


I need to cancel my account and get myself a new name here.


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## bchernicoff (Dec 20, 2012)

I've been meaning to pick up Vogue: The Editor's Eye for some inspiration. Anyone own it? What do you think?

http://www.amazon.com/Vogue-The-Editors-Conde-Nast/dp/1419704400/ref=pd_sim_b_6

"this book focuses on the work of eight of the magazine’s legendary fashion editors (including Polly Mellen, Babs Simpson, and Grace Coddington) who collaborated with photographers, stylists, and designers to create the images that have had an indelible impact on the fashion world and beyond. Featuring the work of world-renowned photographers such as Richard Avedon, Irving Penn, and Annie Leibovitz and model/muses, including Marilyn Monroe, Verushka, and Linda Evangelista, The Editor’s Eye is a lavishly illustrated look at the visionary editors whose works continue to reverberate in the culture today."


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## Krob78 (Dec 21, 2012)

agierke said:


> this is a difficult question to answer as it really depends on so many variables (individual aspiration, type of educational institution, curriculum, quality and philosophy of the individual educators, etc). that being said, i will offer my perspective.
> 
> my particular experience started at a small 2 year college that was backed by both Pratt and Corcoran, though i began attending in only its second year of existence so the curriculum was being developed as we attended (this turned out to be a benefit in hindsight). i graduated with an associates and then enrolled at the University of the Arts the following fall. over that summer i began assisting a high end commercial photographer in Philly about 25 hours a week (which i continued to do throughout the remainder of my schooling). after graduating with my BFA, i continued assisting and began working in a commercial lab. after about 2 years i was invited to teach continuing education classes at my original school and often interacted with the degree students there. eventually i was invited to become an instructor at the University of the Arts and just wrapped up my 13th semester there. i have essentially participated in all sides of the questioned posed.
> 
> ...



Well said... +1


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## RustyTheGeek (Jan 4, 2013)

Dark Reality said:


> A few photography school related questions.
> 
> for those who went to school, do you feel like you learned a great amount, or was it more of a business decision to have a diploma.
> 
> ...



I agree with many of the previous posts that either say the following or I just decided to add now...

- "Proper" Schooling will help you know what you should know, what you don't know and how/why you should go about knowing more. It gives you perspective.
- If you are proficient in the technical, take more classes in the art aspects, if you are already art savvy and need technical, put more emphasis there. Make it count.
- Decide if the investment in classes is prudent for the ROI when you're done. If not, review your goals first.
- We all excel at what we are good at in our comfort zones. Classes may force you to go outside that zone and learn things you've ignored or put off before.

Keep in mind that if you are considering classes to become a professional photographer + primary breadwinner for your family, think long and hard. The photography profession, esp these days, is a very tough field to provide for a family with. It would have to be your dream job in a big way to not go crazy.


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## jp121 (Jan 7, 2013)

can anyone recommend an online course?


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## FatDaddyJones (Jan 7, 2013)

jp121 said:


> can anyone recommend an online course?



http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=7901

This covers a great deal of both technical and compositional aspects of photography. It's not free, but a good course nevertheless.


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## FatDaddyJones (Jan 7, 2013)

When I studied photography, the technical jargon included developer and stop bath and fixer. Now it's about megapixel count and raw file adjustments and IS VC USM STM, etc.... Metadata was whatever you wrote on the slide or your negative folder. Times change. Technological progress never ceases. So learning should never stop. Especially if you want to be a better photographer.


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## jp121 (Jan 7, 2013)

Thanks FatDaddyJones


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## crasher8 (Jan 7, 2013)

School starts back up for me in a week, I don't attend every semester but when a particular class is offered that will help me sharpen my saw or open me up to a new niche I go for it. I'm excited! Plus then it gets me out of creativity ruts that come every so often by having an instructor give me weekly assignments.


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## BrandonKing96 (Jan 8, 2013)

I'm considering it just for the papers that I can use towards a CV. But I've still got a while considering I'm only 16. Yet, I'm self-taught in photographer and I find it better to be self-taught as you get to learn what you know and don't bit by bit through seeing your best photos and absolute worst photos (and learning from those). Plus, imo, you'd get more comfortable shooting with your own style rather than having a set system made by someone else.


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## jp121 (Jan 8, 2013)

BrandonKing96 said:


> Plus, imo, you'd get more comfortable shooting with your own style rather than having a set system made by someone else.



Fine Arts courses specifically teach you to copy the style of the artists. So that when you do develop your own style, it will contain elements that you like of the Great Masters.


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## agierke (Jan 9, 2013)

jp121 said:


> BrandonKing96 said:
> 
> 
> > Plus, imo, you'd get more comfortable shooting with your own style rather than having a set system made by someone else.
> ...



uh...no. i am a university photography instructor and that is absolutely not what we try to do. in fact, i have a specific assignment that requires students to identify a photographer that they will do a presentation on and then use their work to inspire their own original photos. the main thing i stress in that assignment is that i absolutely do not want them to exactly copy individual photos of their chosen photographer. 

a good fine art course will stress understanding the intent and message an artist is trying to impart as well as cover the techniques used to execute that message and why it is successful. simply "copying" another artists work is not a great approach.


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## crasher8 (Jan 9, 2013)

agierke said:


> jp121 said:
> 
> 
> > BrandonKing96 said:
> ...



Thank you for that response. I have taken many college visual arts courses and NEVER has an instructor pushed a style or niche upon anyone. These are artists, open minded people teaching these courses, folks with vision. I have encountered nothing but good listeners who assist you in sharpening your saw and making you aware of your options.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 11, 2013)

Dark Reality said:


> A few photography school related questions.
> 
> for those who went to school, do you feel like you learned a great amount, or was it more of a business decision to have a diploma.
> 
> ...



First, you need to say more, what are your goals, what do you want to do? Does making a living out of it matter in the end? PJ oriented? Fashion? Weddings? Nature? Street? Abstract? Everything?

I'd go to school for something else, photography isn't the easiest way to make money. Many who make money in it or who became big names never took any photo classes at all or just a few the side too. Sometimes business skills and to be a huge self-promoter can matter as much as anything else, depending upon what your goals are. Depending upon your aim you could fill up electives with either more PJ-oriented or more art-oriented creative photo classes on the side, some lighting classes and such might help if you might ever want to go that way, try to nab internships and tag along or third shooter assignments, go to serious clubs, try to get involved in circles of the sort of photography you want to do. I'm not sure how many schools have pure photography majors, I'd guess that at most liberal arts schools it would be more like a general art major with an extra focus on photography. Work for the school paper or become involved in the campus art/photo community on the side. Having a PJ degree might help a bit but that is a tough business these days, you could get a lot of experience just working, in a serious fashion, for school paper if it is a big one.

But it is hard to say without knowing what your actual goals are.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 11, 2013)

PackLight said:


> "Twelve significant photographs in any one year is a good crop."
> Ansel Adams
> 
> I am sure he had a few bad exposures.
> ...



Probably a lot considering how much time he spent in the lab fiddling with emulsions and developers and practicing arts of advanced dodging and burning and so on. Heck, he might have even been the head of DxO scores division.

He was both an artist and outdoors guy AND a big time techie, lab guy.


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## awinphoto (Jan 11, 2013)

If i could, when looking into college... make sure you are looking into the right degrees... I got a BA in professional photography with a major in industrial photography... I am now settled and I interview students every so often from our local universities "Fine Art" students with an emphasis in photography... wow... They can conceptualize well, they can do elaborate scenes... but when it comes to professional photography, coming up with products a client would buy, they struggle. As fine arts, they are good at self portraits... good at making artsy fartsy photos you may see in a modern art gallery... BUT... to come up with a solid portrait that a client would pay money for... they are few and far between. So I would be wary of fine art degree schools with an "emphasis" in photography, but instead look for schools that offer degrees in Professional Photography.


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## Krob78 (Apr 2, 2013)

I think degrees are great and schooling will certainly get you over the learning curve quicker. Hard to replace all the lessons learned by pushing that shutter button over and over and over too!


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