# The Canon EOS “R7” has been pushed to Q4 of 2022



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 25, 2022)

> **Update** We have confirmed that the camera will be called the “EOS R7” and it will come this year, Q4 being most likely.
> There were rumors that a Canon EOS “R7” (We’re calling it that for now) would have been announced by now, in a ‘normal’ world anyway.
> We have been told that the Canon EOS R7 is now scheduled for a Q4 of 2022 announcement. This tends to fall in line with the usual late August/Early September announcements that Canon is known for.
> For the moment, specifications are scarce and we’re unable to confirm what we do know at this time. Let’s hope that changes in the near future.



Continue reading...


----------



## unfocused (Apr 25, 2022)

I'm just happy to see a rumor of a new body. It seems like a dry spell lately.


----------



## LRPP (Apr 25, 2022)

Canon oldest rumor in the history...


----------



## AccipiterQ (Apr 25, 2022)

*JUST HOOK IT TO MY VEINS*


----------



## speg (Apr 25, 2022)

my life is on hold


----------



## tron (Apr 25, 2022)

No rush (R5, D850 and D500 cover my birding needs) but of course a R7 will be a welcome addition to the R series.


----------



## Stig Nygaard (Apr 25, 2022)

CR Guy is back - at least for this post (I have the impression at least not both substitute admins are fan of these APS-C rumors ).
I'm happy to hear some news about the "R7". Really pushing my patience with that camera. Even Micro Four Thirds and the OM-1 have started to sound attractive (just wish that 150-400mm F4.5 TC wasn't so crazy expensive).
I have the R6 because I couldn't wait to try that Animal AF any more. Great camera, but fullframe is not what I want to build my general all-purpose kit around.

[PS. I'm not answering comments that I should buy fullframe and crop. We have already been through that discussion at least a 100 times before]


----------



## JustUs7 (Apr 25, 2022)

LRPP said:


> Canon oldest rumor in the history...


Toss up between this one, the high megapixel R5, and the RF 35mm f/1.2.


----------



## lote82 (Apr 25, 2022)

I will sue canonrumors if this is not going to happen!


----------



## bbasiaga (Apr 25, 2022)

Any chance this will have a stacked sensor? Could serve a purpose for me as a sports body if it did. I'd really like an R3, but the cost of an R7 plus the R6 I already have will be less than a single R3. 

-Brian


----------



## bergstrom (Apr 25, 2022)

Just waiting for the RP2


----------



## Blue Zurich (Apr 25, 2022)

JustUs7 said:


> Toss up between this one, the high megapixel R5, and the RF 35mm f/1.2.


I think the EF 50 1.4 ll has got them all beat...or was that just an extensive wishlist item?


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Apr 25, 2022)

I’ve been checking this site every day waiting for some R7 News! Now just need to find some money!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 25, 2022)

Jasonmc89 said:


> I’ve been checking this site every day waiting for some R7 News! Not just need to find some money!


Seems like you’ll have ample time for that.


----------



## shawnc (Apr 25, 2022)

You could've saved me googling about the R7 a few hours ago if you had posted this then.
Oh well, should have cash in hand when it finally drops.


----------



## vangelismm (Apr 25, 2022)

Next week click bait rumor: R1 or high megapixel R5?


----------



## john1970 (Apr 25, 2022)

Not surprising that it is pushed back a couple of quarters from Q2 to Q4. Likely any R1 is pushed back as well.


----------



## vjlex (Apr 26, 2022)

Looking forward to this and any subsequent Rebel "R" it may bring. I really want a budget APS-C that can handle RF lenses. Pretty cool that there's confirmation of the R7 moniker.


----------



## AccipiterQ (Apr 26, 2022)

_Scientists have measured the shortest interval of time ever recorded, clocking how long it takes a particle of light to cross a single molecule of hydrogen. The ultra-quick journey took *247 zeptoseconds*, according to a team of German researchers, with a zeptosecond representing a trillionth of a billionth of a second._

Shortest interval of time _until _the R7 is announced and I smash the preorder button in about 123 zeptoseconds.


----------



## Chaitanya (Apr 26, 2022)

This might be the reason for delay:








Ancillary Semiconductors Require in Excess of Six Months Lead Time


Based on a report by Susquehanna, the lead time for what can be called ancillary semiconductors, i.e. the kind that are paired up with processor, SoCs and GPUs, now have a lead time of over six months. This is based on data from the distribution channel and as such, it's unlikely to affect large...




www.techpowerup.com


----------



## adrian_bacon (Apr 26, 2022)

A world class 8K stacked BSI APS-C sensor would be awesome, and basically take all the Canon top line auto focus tech and put it into the R7 with that crop sensor.

Just think, 7680x5120 pixels, 30 fps stills, R3 level AF. One can dream.

More realistically, it'll probably be the 90D sensor (or a revision of it) with the R6 firmware, and no IBIS in basically an R6 body. I could pretty easily live with that too. It'd be great for the birders, event shooters, and all around general purpose photogs.


----------



## Blue Zurich (Apr 26, 2022)

adrian_bacon said:


> A world class 8K stacked BSI APS-C sensor would be awesome, and basically take all the Canon top line auto focus tech and put it into the R7 with that crop sensor.
> 
> Just think, 7680x5120 pixels, 30 fps stills, R3 level AF. One can dream.
> 
> More realistically, it'll probably be the 90D sensor (or a revision of it) with the R6 firmware, and no IBIS in basically an R6 body. I could pretty easily live with that too. It'd be great for the birders, event shooters, and all around general purpose photogs.


My less than optimal take would be R6 with IBIS and a reworked M6ll sensor.


----------



## mdcmdcmdc (Apr 26, 2022)

adrian_bacon said:


> More realistically, it'll probably be the 90D sensor (or a revision of it) with the R6 firmware, and no IBIS in basically an R6 body. I could pretty easily live with that too. It'd be great for the birders, event shooters, and all around general purpose photogs.





Blue Zurich said:


> My less than optimal take would be R6 with IBIS and a reworked M6ll sensor.



I hope that by Q4 2022, Canon will have more to show than just a bunch of cobbled-together parts dating from the Trump administration!


----------



## mdcmdcmdc (Apr 26, 2022)

I’ve also been following these rumors, or their predecessors (7D Mark III) since at least as far back as early 2018. That was when I wondered whether I should grab a good local deal on a slightly used 7D Mark II, or wait because the rumor sites said the Mark III would be out that year (I grabbed it).

My thirst for a high-performance APS-C mirrorless body was quenched when I bought an a6400 last spring. But I keep hoping Canon will give me a compelling reason to come back.

I keep hoping…

…and hoping…


----------



## TexPhoto (Apr 26, 2022)

The mock-up R7 has a full frame sensor. It's clearly an R5. The 7 is even a little too long.


----------



## Chaitanya (Apr 26, 2022)

adrian_bacon said:


> A world class 8K stacked BSI APS-C sensor would be awesome, and basically take all the Canon top line auto focus tech and put it into the R7 with that crop sensor.
> 
> Just think, 7680x5120 pixels, 30 fps stills, R3 level AF. One can dream.
> 
> More realistically, it'll probably be the 90D sensor (or a revision of it) with the R6 firmware, and no IBIS in basically an R6 body. I could pretty easily live with that too. It'd be great for the birders, event shooters, and all around general purpose photogs.


Given its 7 series body, expect R7 to share internals and body with R5 rather than R6. I hope R7 gets max of 28MP BSI sensor which would be a great upgrade over EOS 7D mk2.


----------



## HMC11 (Apr 26, 2022)

AccipiterQ said:


> _Scientists have measured the shortest interval of time ever recorded, clocking how long it takes a particle of light to cross a single molecule of hydrogen. The ultra-quick journey took *247 zeptoseconds*, according to a team of German researchers, with a zeptosecond representing a trillionth of a billionth of a second._
> 
> Shortest interval of time _until _the R7 is announced and I smash the preorder button in about 123 zeptoseconds.


As a chemist would say, fast though 123zeptoseconds ordering is, the rate-determining step would still be the delivery time, which is most likely measured in months, or at least 10^28 zeptoseconds .


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Apr 26, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Seems like you’ll have ample time for that.


True. Although I can’t really afford to put anything away at the moment!


----------



## adrian_bacon (Apr 26, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> My less than optimal take would be R6 with IBIS and a reworked M6ll sensor.


The M6II sensor is the same as the 90D, so with the exception of IBIS, we be thinking along similar lines.


----------



## adrian_bacon (Apr 26, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> I hope that by Q4 2022, Canon will have more to show than just a bunch of cobbled-together parts dating from the Trump administration!


I would hope so too, but at the same time, there's just about nothing wrong with the 90D/M6II sensor. Canon could totally put it in an R5/R6 body, and reuse as many parts as possible from existing production runs, have a really performant platform, and totally lead with price. Birders/wildlife photogs want as much pixel density as possible for cropping and that sensor is right up there, and it's more than enough total resolution for a pretty big swath of professional general purpose photography to boot.


----------



## adrian_bacon (Apr 26, 2022)

Chaitanya said:


> Given its 7 series body, expect R7 to share internals and body with R5 rather than R6. I hope R7 gets max of 28MP BSI sensor which would be a great upgrade over EOS 7D mk2.


What they ultimately end up doing will likely be a reflection of how many they think they can sell. In an ideal world, everything in it would be new or top line, but in reality, it would be very likely a lot of shared bits and pieces between the other platforms they're already making.

My personal preference would be the R5 firmware, but actual R6 body, simply because I like the R6 top plate better and would rather have two SD cards than the mixed cards the R5 has, but that's just me.


----------



## mxwphoto (Apr 26, 2022)

If canon goes top end route I can see a 36mpx BSI sensor with IBIS at 30fps and 8k recording housed in something similar to R5 body. If pricing can get to $2500 it would be a winner.

Personally I just don't see Canon reusing 90D sensor as the R7 and calling it a day as the expectations surrounding the 7Dii successor are sky high. If Canon did that it would be the camera equivalent of big white lens adaptergate.


----------



## Fletchahh (Apr 26, 2022)

Stig Nygaard said:


> CR Guy is back - at least for this post (I have the impression at least not both substitute admins are fan of these APS-C rumors ).
> I'm happy to hear some news about the "R7". Really pushing my patience with that camera. Even Micro Four Thirds and the OM-1 have started to sound attractive (just wish that 150-400mm F4.5 TC wasn't so crazy expensive).
> I have the R6 because I couldn't wait to try that Animal AF any more. Great camera, but fullframe is not what I want to build my general all-purpose kit around.
> 
> [PS. I'm not answering comments that I should buy fullframe and crop. We have already been through that discussion at least a 100 times before]


Agreed. I still only have a 7D II and every lens of mine other than my 100-400 II is a EF-S mount lens because the crop ecosystem is substantially cheaper. Just (not so) patiently waiting to be able to use Animal AF on a good crop body at this point.


----------



## adrian_bacon (Apr 26, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> Personally I just don't see Canon reusing 90D sensor as the R7 and calling it a day as the expectations surrounding the 7Dii successor are sky high. If Canon did that it would be the camera equivalent of big white lens adaptergate.


The 7DII is literally the 70D sensor in a pro body with pro oriented firmware. It's true that expectations are high, but if you're currently a 7DII shooter, if they used the 90D sensor in the R7 or a revised version of it, you'd be getting a stop plus of extra dynamic range over the 7DII, a lot less noise, significantly better AF, a way higher shooting frame rate, and you'd be going from ~20MP to 32+MP on top of all that. That's not an insignificant upgrade for a 7DII shooter. I strongly suspect the only reason why Canon didn't do a 7DIII with an 80D or 90D sensor was because they had RF plans, and then COVID hit... and here we are, way past the refresh cycle for the 7DII.

I totally get that tech continues to march on, and people tend to want the moon, but from the context of a current 7DII shooter (yes they do exist and are out there), that's a really healthy upgrade and gets those shooters on the RF platform. The only way Canon could really top that is basically do an APS-C version of the R3 with an all new BSI stacked sensor. I just don't see that happening given the current environment and with R3 orders backlogged out to kingdom come. In the interest of getting salable product out the door and keeping the money flowing in and lights on, and following what they did with the 7DII sensor, I see it way more likely that it'd be an 80D or 90D sensor in an R5 or R6 body. I could be totally wrong, but that's my reading of the tea leaves.


----------



## Stig Nygaard (Apr 26, 2022)

Regarding sensor, I would be disappointed if they just reuse the 90D-sensor. I wouldn't expect them to either. I think Canon will like to demonstrate/use their newer sensor-technology.

_If_ previous rumor about about same sensor being used in multiple APS-C cameras including R7 are true, I would _*not*_ expect the sensor to be stacked, but hopefully still with fast read-out technology like the R5 sensor.

On the other hand, if R7 gets its _own sensor_, I would expect it to be stacked and we would ideally see demonstrated some of the advantages you can get from smaller stacked sensors (Think something in direction of the new OM-1, though that MFT-sensor of course has advantage of being even smaller and have less resolution than to be expected from a new R7 sensor).

The Canon 7D-series has always signaled speed, so I expect some sensor with fast readout. However if they take the easy path and just re-use the 90D sensor, I'm pretty sure I still buy it. Would probably still be the camera available closest to what I want.


----------



## entoman (Apr 26, 2022)

All we have at the moment is the invented name "R7" and a lot of speculation and wishful thinking.

This could indeed be a 33MP sports/birding machine to fulfil the wishes of those who want more reach from shorter and cheaper lenses...

... but it could just be a cheapo bottom-of-the-range APS body to entice newcomers into the RF system.

I ask you, which is the more likely?


----------



## addola (Apr 26, 2022)

The 7D Mark II was 10 fps, and the current R6 does 14 fps mechanical (20 electronic). If the R7 is about speed, it would have to out-do the 20 electronic. Could it be an APS-C camera that does 30 fps electronic like the R3?

I think Canon would not reuse an existing sensor for this one because the 7D series was quite popular, so they're probably going to invest more into it.

I think this signals the end of the EF-M system, as this would likely be followed by entry-level, sub-$600 RF mount camera.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 26, 2022)

addola said:


> I think this signals the end of the EF-M system, as this would likely be followed by entry-level, sub-$600 RF mount camera.


The imminent death of the M system continues to be greatly exaggerated.


----------



## tron (Apr 26, 2022)

addola said:


> The 7D Mark II was 10 fps, and* the current R6 does 14 fps mechanical (20 electronic)*. If the R7 is about speed, it would have to out-do the 20 electronic. Could it be an APS-C camera that does 30 fps electronic like the R3?
> 
> I think Canon would not reuse an existing sensor for this one because the 7D series was quite popular, so they're probably going to invest more into it.
> 
> I think this signals the end of the EF-M system, as this would likely be followed by entry-level, sub-$600 RF mount camera.


To be precise: 8fps mechanical at 14bit 12 fps mechanical at 13 bit 20fps electronic at 12bit. 7Dii has 10fps at 14bit.


----------



## mdcmdcmdc (Apr 26, 2022)

adrian_bacon said:


> I would hope so too, but at the same time, there's just about nothing wrong with the 90D/M6II sensor. Canon could totally put it in an R5/R6 body, and reuse as many parts as possible from existing production runs, have a really performant platform, and totally lead with price. Birders/wildlife photogs want as much pixel density as possible for cropping and that sensor is right up there, and it's more than enough total resolution for a pretty big swath of professional general purpose photography to boot.


Don't get me wrong, I agree with everything you're saying. My point is that Canon could have easily released such a camera two years ago, but they didn't. What's different now?

It couldn't have been to protect initial R6 sales, since the R6 and (hypothetical) R7 address different markets. It couldn't have been to protect initial R5 sales, since the R5 is in a much different price class (at least, I *hope* the R5 is in a much different price class!) than the rumored R7. Could it have been to protect the remaining trickle of new 7D Mark II sales? Maybe, but even two years ago, that was a 5+ year old body, and Fuji and Sony had surpassed its capabilities even then.

I see this going one of two ways:

1) Canon releases an ultimate pro-level APS-C body with everything we've been dreaming of, the latest 2022 technology, and maybe one or two new, unique features that nobody saw coming. This will be a one-off release that will have to keep all of us Canon APS-C fanbois and fangurrls happy for the next ten years.

2) Nothing happens. We all know the rumor mill has been pretty slow lately, and all of the rumor/clickbait sites know that "R7" generates a lot of traffic. Is there any reason to believe the high-end APS-C market is more appealing to Canon now than it was two or three years ago? Even Sony has discontinued older a6x00 APS-C models and suspended production of current ones in favor of their full frame offerings.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 26, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> I see this going one of two ways:
> 
> 1) Canon releases an ultimate pro-level APS-C body with everything we've been dreaming of, the latest 2022 technology, and maybe one or two new, unique features that nobody saw coming. This will be a one-off release that will have to keep all of us Canon APS-C fanbois and fangurrls happy for the next ten years.


Given their lack of interest in keeping those folks happy with a 7DIII, I'm skeptical that we'll see what some on this forum seem to want, an APS-C version of the R3 in an R5 body. Ever. 



mdcmdcmdc said:


> 2) Nothing happens. We all know the rumor mill has been pretty slow lately, and all of the rumor/clickbait sites know that "R7" generates a lot of traffic. Is there any reason to believe the high-end APS-C market is more appealing to Canon now than it was two or three years ago? Even Sony has discontinued older a6x00 APS-C models and suspended production of current ones in favor of their full frame offerings.


This one gets my vote.


----------



## koenkooi (Apr 26, 2022)

tron said:


> To be precise: 8fps mechanical at 14bit 12 fps mechanical at 13 bit 20fps electronic at 12bit. 7Dii has 10fps at 14bit.


Does it really? Canon has dropped bit depth on higher FPS for a long time now, which is hard to spot for most people who aren't called @bclaff


----------



## Blue Zurich (Apr 26, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> The imminent death of the M system continues to be greatly exaggerated.


Shot on an M5 I believe


----------



## koenkooi (Apr 26, 2022)

adrian_bacon said:


> I would hope so too, but at the same time, there's just about nothing wrong with the 90D/M6II sensor.[..]


Except that is has a really slow readout speed compared to all R cameras, excepting the RP. E-shutter would have severe rolling shutter, the 18fps 10-bit burst mode on the M6II needs to crop in to be barely usable.
I would love to see what AF magic the a digic X would add and the body size would be a lot more ergonomic for heavy lenses, but I really like the e-shutter in my R5 and wouldn't want something that would perform worse.


----------



## tron (Apr 26, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> Does it really? Canon has dropped bit depth on higher FPS for a long time now, which is hard to spot for most people who aren't called @bclaff


I do not understand what you mean. In DSLRs I haven't seen any reference in bit depth dropping anywhere. In R cameras it exists only in R5 and R6. I do not know anything about M cameras so I cannot comment on them.


----------



## adrian_bacon (Apr 26, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> Don't get me wrong, I agree with everything you're saying. My point is that Canon could have easily released such a camera two years ago, but they didn't. What's different now?
> 
> It couldn't have been to protect initial R6 sales, since the R6 and (hypothetical) R7 address different markets. It couldn't have been to protect initial R5 sales, since the R5 is in a much different price class (at least, I *hope* the R5 is in a much different price class!) than the rumored R7. Could it have been to protect the remaining trickle of new 7D Mark II sales? Maybe, but even two years ago, that was a 5+ year old body, and Fuji and Sony had surpassed its capabilities even then.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with any of that. At the end of the day it's all speculation, and like I said before, what they ultimately end up doing will be determined by how many they think they can sell. Yes, other manufacturers have released products that have sailed past the 7DII on paper, and there are those that have no problem with switching brands at will, but there are also a large number of photographers who view their cameras as tools, and don't just switch whole platforms over specsmanship. Only Canon knows their plans.

In terms of what's different between now and two years ago? RF lenses. If you're a 7DII shooter and want to get onto an APS-C RF body, do you want to use an EF to RF adapter or use RF lenses?


----------



## adrian_bacon (Apr 26, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> Except that is has a really slow readout speed compared to all R cameras, excepting the RP. E-shutter would have severe rolling shutter, the 18fps 10-bit burst mode on the M6II needs to crop in to be barely usable.
> I would love to see what AF magic the a digic X would add and the body size would be a lot more ergonomic for heavy lenses, but I really like the e-shutter in my R5 and wouldn't want something that would perform worse.


What's the readout compared to the 7DII sensor? Comparing the 90D sensor readout speed to other RF bodies and then trying to equate that to a 7DII doesn't make any sense. Look at it from the perspective of a current 7DII shooter.


----------



## RobbieHat (Apr 26, 2022)

While I would consider adding an R7 as a dedicated wildlife/birding body if the MP are high enough and speeds are significantly better than the R5 (which I already own), I am more interested in what lenses will be announced at the same time as the R7 to incent sales. 

I could envision a 200-500mm L with built in 1.4x extender or a 200-600mm lens to compete with Sony or even better the revival of the 400mm f5.6 magic drainpipe! All sorts of expensive or not so expensive options that might be paired with the R7 announcement.


----------



## Bob Howland (Apr 26, 2022)

So we don't know exactly what the R7 will be but we know it's coming. I'd settle for an aps-c version of the R6 (or maybe a 24MP R6-2) for $1800. I don't think anybody really expects an aps-c version of the R3.


----------



## John Wilde (Apr 26, 2022)

Meh. The 7D II DSLR was priced at $1799 (body only). Canon has contempt for first-time camera buyers who want something new-affordable.


----------



## Blue Zurich (Apr 26, 2022)

John Wilde said:


> Meh. The 7D II DSLR was priced at $1799 (body only). Canon has contempt for first-time camera buyers who want something new-affordable.


We have no idea on the specs, so pricing theories are just that. This could be crop RF and nothing resembling the 7D series or what 7D shooters have been hoping for. Then you might just get your entry level crop RF after all. For far less than 1799 imo. what with RP pricing as a yardstick.

If it does have all the bells and whistles that most here having been pining for for years now i.e. fps, sealing, FF size body (R5/6) and a proper modern sensor , BSI perhaps, this is not the first time buyer body you might be thinking of. Then I wouldn't think it would be a penny under 2999. And it should be for those specs.


----------



## unfocused (Apr 26, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> …Then I wouldn't think it would be a penny under 2999. And it should be for those specs.


I think that might be a touch high. I’m guessing either slightly above or slightly below the R6.


----------



## Blue Zurich (Apr 26, 2022)

unfocused said:


> I think that might be a touch high. I’m guessing either slightly above or slightly below the R6.


Since we know nothing, is that directed at the 7D3 spec'd wishlist R7? Or just any new RF crop body in general.


----------



## mdcmdcmdc (Apr 26, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> If it does have all the bells and whistles that most here having been pining for for years now i.e. fps, sealing, FF size body (R5/6) and a proper modern sensor , BSI perhaps, this is not the first time buyer body you might be thinking of. Then I wouldn't think it would be a penny under 2999. And it should be for those specs.


2999?? Is that USD? Man! I've been saying that I can't see how Canon can justify going much beyond $2K for a high-end APS-C body. $2999 is in a different league altogether.


----------



## Blue Zurich (Apr 26, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> 2999?? Is that USD? Man! I've been saying that I can't see how Canon can justify going much beyond $2K for a high-end APS-C body. $2999 is in a different league altogether.


I based that number upon Canon listening to all the CR members and they're extensive list of demands. Believe me, I'm with you. But now that I see the way you worded your response, it's as if you're devaluing crop in general in my view. Why couldn't/wouldn't it be amazing and of course expensive? You won't get amazing for cheap no matter how often we say it should be.


----------



## unfocused (Apr 26, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> Since we know nothing, is that directed at the 7D3 spec'd wishlist R7? Or just any new RF crop body in general.


7D III specs. That assumes that an R7 would be spec'd similar to the R6 but with a crop sensor. I think U.S. $3,000 is too heavy of a lift. Canon has to be realistic about what the market will bear. But, I'm not one of those who see it coming in anywhere near the old 7DII price. When I've asked the most vocal of the R7 advocates on this forum if they would spring for an R7 spec'd and similarly priced to the R6, they've said yes. 

It may have two SD slots. I would also expect that the mechanical shutter will be eliminated. R3 was the test bed for an electronic shutter and with the new Nikon flagship dumping the mechanical shutter, I expect that to become the standard. Electronic shutter gets them to a higher frame rate at less cost. 




Blue Zurich said:


> I based that number upon Canon listening to all the CR members and they're extensive list of demands...you won't get amazing for cheap no matter how often we say it should be.


7DII. Cheap and Amazing.


----------



## mdcmdcmdc (Apr 27, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> I based that number upon Canon listening to all the CR members and they're extensive list of demands. Believe me, I'm with you. But now that I see the way you worded your response, it's as if you're devaluing crop in general in my view. Why couldn't/wouldn't it be amazing and of course expensive? You won't get amazing for cheap no matter how often we say it should be.


I don't know what I said or how I worded it that makes you think I'm devaluing crop. Look no further than the list of bodies under my user name. Three of those are crop bodies. The fourth is indeed a "full frame" body, but one that pre-dates APS-anything and uses wet chemical sensor technology.  It was also the least expensive of all of them.

For the photography I like to do, I feel an APS-C body is the best tool for the job. I like going to air shows. Maybe the "birds" aren't as small as the ones other people around here like to shoot, but they're small enough and I'm using a moderate telephoto (100-400). Could I do it with a FF rig and get good results? Most definitely. It's not the equipment that limits the quality of my results, I'll be the first to admit. But I prefer crop.

So yes, I like APS-C, and I would love it if Canon came out with a new high-end APS-C R body. I would give it a serious look and very likely own one before long. But I've been down these "7D Mark III" and "R7" rumor paths for nearly five years now, and I honestly don't think it's going to happen. Maybe you're responding to that when you say I devalue crop. I'm not saying I don't want it to happen, I'd love it if it did. I understand pixel density, why people would choose crop even if it was the same price as FF, and the fallacy of "equivalence".

I don't know if you read the linked post in my previous post, but that's a brief post where I lay it out why I think an R7 with R6-type specs doesn't inherently have to cost well north of $2K. That's not devaluing anything, it's illustrating that if Sony and Fuji can do it, there's no reason why Canon shouldn't be able to also.

Canon might choose a higher price point for branding and cachet, but that's a different issue.


----------



## John Wilde (Apr 27, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> The imminent death of the M system continues to be greatly exaggerated.


Make that the lingering death of the M system. I can't remember the last time Canon mentioned its existence. It's never mentioned in their financial documents. Canon even excluded it from their "Canon EOS System celebrates 35th anniversary" press release. I want Canon to continue to develop M, but things are looking pretty grim.
​


----------



## Blue Zurich (Apr 27, 2022)

unfocused said:


> 7DII. Cheap and Amazing.


But her iso!


----------



## Bob Howland (Apr 27, 2022)

John Wilde said:


> Make that the lingering death of the M system. I can't remember the last time Canon mentioned its existence. It's never mentioned in their financial documents. Canon even excluded it from their "Canon EOS System celebrates 35th anniversary" press release. I want Canon to continue to develop M, but things are looking pretty grim.
> ​


So the M system is a monumental cash cow for Canon, all revenue and no engineering costs. That's what Neuro seems intent of reminding us of. For all we know, profits from the M-system provide all of the R&D funding for the R system. That doesn't mean that anybody on this website should care about the M system at all.


----------



## shawnc (Apr 27, 2022)

I haven't seen anyone mention inflation and pricing (not that I've mined the comments exhaustively). The $1800 a 7dii cost in 2014 would run about $2200 in today's dollars. Yes you get more bang for your buck from new tech as the years go by, but I think $1800 for a crop-sensor RF camera with comparatively similar features (pro build quality, high frame rate, top end AF etc) to the 7dii is wishful thinking.


----------



## GoldWing (Apr 27, 2022)

What about the R1?


----------



## Chig (Apr 27, 2022)

shawnc said:


> I haven't seen anyone mention inflation and pricing (not that I've mined the comments exhaustively). The $1800 a 7dii cost in 2014 would run about $2200 in today's dollars. Yes you get more bang for your buck from new tech as the years go by, but I think $1800 for a crop-sensor RF camera with comparatively similar features (pro build quality, high frame rate, top end AF etc) to the 7dii is wishful thinking.


Similar pricing to the R6 makes sense which is about USD2,500. 
An R7 based on the R6 but with a new BSI stacked crop sensor and no IBIS (to save costs ) should be a strong seller if it's priced at $2,500 or even a bit higher.
An R7 based on the R3 with the same new BSI stacked crop sensor and priced about the same as an R5 could be popular too
An R7 reusing the old M6ii/90D sensor would be a bit too far behind the current technology to be competitive especially as Nikon and Sony may bring out something superior.


----------



## Skyscraperfan (Apr 27, 2022)

I wonder if the R7 will have built-in overheating. Othwerwise it would be quite unfair to R5 customers.


----------



## Otara (Apr 27, 2022)

I'm pretty sure Canon could release this. 

I'm also pretty sure they wont, until they feel they've got everything they can out of full-frame RF value wise. With past production shortages and a forecast of increased sales, I doubt thats happened yet.


----------



## LogicExtremist (Apr 27, 2022)

Just by the weight of sheer probability, it's most likely that Canon will just reuse an older sensor such as the one from the 90D on an R7 if it's ever released.
Looking at all the RF camera bodies released, other than the two most expensive bodies, they all use repurpoed sensors from previous DSLR camera bodies.

2022 Canon EOS R3 - *new *24.1 MP stacked BSI CMOS sensor
2020 Canon EOS R5 - *new *45MP CMOS sensor
2020 Canon EOS R6 - reused EOS 1D X Mark III 20MP CMOS sensor 
2019 Canon EOS RP - reused EOS 6D Mark II DSLR 26MP CMOS sensor
2018 Canon EOS R - reused EOS 5D Mark IV DSLR 30MP CMOS sensor

If there are possible cost cutting measures, they will likely be taken by Canon. See the post below:

Canon’s Imaging Unit Grew, Profits Shrunk on Costs, ‘Various Measures’ Coming
The company said it expected double-digit profit growth in future quarters “as negative impact of cost increase is absorbed through various measures.” 








Canon's Imaging Unit Grew, Profits Shrunk on Costs, 'Various Measures' Coming


In news that will hearten Canon shooters, the firm indicated in its quarterly results that parts availability is improving. In news that probably won't hearten



www.canonrumors.com


----------



## tapanit (Apr 27, 2022)

Chig said:


> An R7 reusing the old M6ii/90D sensor would be a bit too far behind the current technology to be competitive especially as Nikon and Sony may bring out something superior.


Agreed. A crop R makes sense to Canon only if it brings money in - if it increases their net profits, counting everything including its development and manufacturing costs and its impact on their other models' sales.

A really cheap "Rebel R" might do that, but it would not be called R7.

The only kind of R7 that I can see making sense would be a "crop R5". Everything R5 does except some video features (no 8k), a sensor that's better than R5 in crop mode (at least somewhat higher pixel density). Maybe with R6 body style and dual SD card slots, but perhaps R5 style is more likely simply as a means to lure people upgrading to an R5. I can't see them omitting IBIS. Price would be somewhere around what R6 costs.

That said, I'm still very doubtful whether it will materialize at all. But we'll see.


----------



## tapanit (Apr 27, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> I hope that by Q4 2022, Canon will have more to show than just a bunch of cobbled-together parts dating from the Trump administration!


I fear it won't even appear before the second Trump administration...


----------



## Blue Zurich (Apr 27, 2022)

GoldWing said:


> What about the R1?


What about the M5ll? (which would sell far more copies)


----------



## Blue Zurich (Apr 27, 2022)

tapanit said:


> I fear it won't even appear before the second Trump administration...


That admin is vaporware


----------



## Bob Howland (Apr 27, 2022)

shawnc said:


> I haven't seen anyone mention inflation and pricing (not that I've mined the comments exhaustively). The $1800 a 7dii cost in 2014 would run about $2200 in today's dollars. Yes you get more bang for your buck from new tech as the years go by, but I think $1800 for a crop-sensor RF camera with comparatively similar features (pro build quality, high frame rate, top end AF etc) to the 7dii is wishful thinking.


I stated $1800 in a previous post. It's possible that that is not my final offer. It's also possible that I'm not about to admit that in an open forum, especially one that Canon might just possibly read.


----------



## bernie_king (Apr 27, 2022)

Those of you hoping that this camera is going to be spec'd near the R3 are just setting yourselves up for disappointment. There is no way Canon is going to release a $2000 body (or even can for that matter) that can compete with it's $6000 R3 with the only difference being an APS-C sensor and a smaller body. The R3 is is 6K for a reason. I would expect an APS-C version of the R5 (maybe 24mp, non-stacked), 12fps Mech/20mp Electronic) with the same AF as the R5/R6. With that, I think you're looking at at least $2500 if not $3000. At $2000 you're looking more at an APS-C R6.


----------



## tron (Apr 27, 2022)

Reusing 90D's sensor wouldn't be disappointing provided they did one minor change: Making a real 7DIII = a DSLR even as a last one.

Of course this is pure fantasy. It is of course technically feasible but somehow we all know it is not going to happen.

If they make R7 much faster in reaction (than R5) and improve focusing (with something like Quad pixel?) it would make a DSLR 7DIII unnecessary though.

Otherwise no problem for me: My D500 is the 7DIII I always wanted. Fast, with very good focusing, 200 raw photos buffer (with fast XQD) and a battery that lasts for thousands of photos.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2022)

I remain unconvinced we'll see an APS-C EOS R model at all. But if we do, in the current market I doubt Canon will try to replicate the broad lineup of APS-C DSLRs. Thinking of the RF 18-45/4-5.6 on the roadmap, I can see Canon coming out with a single APC-S R model, an R7 that is the entry-level APS-C gateway to the RF system.

Either way (no APS-C R or an entry-level one), most of those on this forum hoping for an APS-C EOS R are not going to get the camera they want. The reality is that people know what they want, while Canon knows what the market wants.


----------



## Blue Zurich (Apr 27, 2022)

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ 

Over at Canon it might be as simple as them saying "We gave you crop mode, please enjoy"


----------



## Kit. (Apr 27, 2022)

Any particular reason to believe that this "R7" will be an APS-C crop camera and not an RP2 (say, R6 sensor in a cheaper body)?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2022)

Kit. said:


> Any particular reason to believe that this "R7" will be an APS-C crop camera and not an RP2 (say, R6 sensor in a cheaper body)?


Nothing other than unsubstantiated rumors and local belief in unicorns.


----------



## bernie_king (Apr 27, 2022)

tron said:


> Reusing 90D's sensor wouldn't be disappointing provided they did one minor change: Making a real 7DIII = a DSLR even as a last one.
> 
> Of course this is pure fantasy. It is of course technically feasible but somehow we all know it is not going to happen.
> 
> ...


If we see Quad Pixel (or any other new AF tech) it will come in the R1 long before it shows up in a prosumer body. If there is an R7, it will likely be the same as in the R5/R6, which really isn't a bad thing. I'd rather have that than what any DSLR could offer as it outperforms any DSLR I've ever used (including 1DX II). My friend went from a D500 to a Z6 II and as bad as the AF is in the Z6 II, he still says it outperforms his D500. I know he gets better results.


----------



## vangelismm (Apr 27, 2022)

Kit. said:


> Any particular reason to believe that this "R7" will be an APS-C crop camera and not an RP2 (say, R6 sensor in a cheaper body)?


 Not a single one except for wishful thinking.


----------



## Blue Zurich (Apr 27, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Nothing other than unsubstantiated rumors and local belief in unicorns.


Plus the FACT that Canon stated there will be no more R and RP bodies. Still, forumites continue to believe there will be.


----------



## tron (Apr 27, 2022)

bernie_king said:


> If we see Quad Pixel (or any other new AF tech) it will come in the R1 long before it shows up in a prosumer body. If there is an R7, it will likely be the same as in the R5/R6, which really isn't a bad thing. I'd rather have that than what any DSLR could offer as it outperforms any DSLR I've ever used (including 1DX II). My friend went from a D500 to a Z6 II and as bad as the AF is in the Z6 II, he still says it outperforms his D500. I know he gets better results.


Outperforms how? In reach ? No! In IQ? Only when not being FL limited. In BIF? I would certainly laugh!

In my opinion, my D500 and D850 with 500mm PF cannot be outperformed easily - in birding photography - since they produce excellent results! I just don't make much use of a TC.

Regarding Quad pixel there is a chance that Canon might test it in a non-top model first.


----------



## roby17269 (Apr 27, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I remain unconvinced we'll see an APS-C EOS R model at all. But if we do, in the current market I doubt Canon will try to replicate the broad lineup of APS-C DSLRs. Thinking of the RF 18-45/4-5.6 on the roadmap, I can see Canon coming out with a single APC-S R model, an R7 that is the entry-level APS-C gateway to the RF system.
> 
> Either way (no APS-C R or an entry-level one), most of those on this forum hoping for an APS-C EOS R are not going to get the camera they want. The reality is that people know what they want, while Canon knows what the market wants.
> 
> View attachment 203243


For once I agree with you  
I do not think that there will be a crop R camera. I think that, essentially, there is no big incentive for Canon to invest in one since Nikon and Sony are not showing a lot of interest in the same market as well. Canon can continue to milk the M system with 0 investment into it.
Given the current economic outlook, all 3 major vendors seem focused on FF cameras and FF lenses to generate max profit from a limited number of sales.
I also agree that, should Canon decide to indeed release a crop R, it will be a part bin model to reduce R&R investment to the bare minimum.

I do hope we'll be proven wrong. But this is my humble opinion


----------



## unfocused (Apr 27, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I remain unconvinced we'll see an APS-C EOS R model at all. But if we do, in the current market I doubt Canon will try to replicate the broad lineup of APS-C DSLRs. Thinking of the RF 18-45/4-5.6 on the roadmap, I can see Canon coming out with a single APC-S R model, an R7 that is the entry-level APS-C gateway to the RF system.
> 
> Either way (no APS-C R or an entry-level one), most of those on this forum hoping for an APS-C EOS R are not going to get the camera they want. The reality is that people know what they want, while Canon knows what the market wants.


Only time will tell. But...

1) I think it's generally a bad idea to bet against @Canon Rumors Guy when it comes to his sources on camera and lens releases. There have been many times in the past when I thought he was dead wrong and was in fact spot on.

2) I don't think any rational person believes Canon will replicate the broad lineup of APS-C DSLRs. That ship has sailed and the market has changed.

3) If you are suggesting that Canon might come out with an R7 that is "the entry-level APS-C gateway to the RF system" I disagree. Canon is pretty consistent in their naming conventions, so an R7 is unlikely to be an entry-level anything. But, more importantly I don't see the viability of any "gateway" APS-C camera. It's debatable whether or not such a gateway ever existed, but if it did, that was another era. In today's market I see budget cameras (budget being a very loose term for cameras under $1,000) for consumers who buy one camera every 10-20 years and use it until it breaks or becomes so old they decide to replace it with a newer model. They aren't likely to "move up" to full frame and most don't know or care that there is a difference in the sensor size.

4) Then there is the enthusiast market, which is the only viable high margin market that exists anymore. That's the market that an R7 would target. Specifically, bird and wildlife hobbyists who want reach and quality and are willing to pay for it. You don't believe such a market is large enough to justify an R7. Others believe it is. No one but Canon knows, but if I had to bet, I would bet that such a market does exist and that Canon can pretty easily satisfy that demand with a R7 based on the R6 body coupled with updated sensor and dropping the mechanical shutter. I think that market can absorb a $2,300 to $2,700 price tag. For many it will be a second body that serves as a lower cost alternative to an unaffordable and unwieldy $12,000-plus big white. (Although, of course, Canon's strategy would be to sell people an R5, and an R7 and then wait for the buyer to decide that their never-ending quest for reach can only be satisfied by adding a big white as well. An R7 is more of a gateway to a big white than a gateway to a full frame body).


----------



## Stig Nygaard (Apr 27, 2022)

bernie_king said:


> If we see Quad Pixel (or any other new AF tech) it will come in the R1 long before it shows up in a prosumer body.



Not saying QPAF is to be introduced in an R7, but Canon does not always introduce new technology in flagship bodies. In fact historically 1D bodies has been somehow conservative releases, mostly using technologies already "tested" in lower ranged camera models.



tron said:


> Regarding Quad pixel there is a chance that Canon might test it in a non-top model first.



DualPixel AF was introduced in the EOS 70D.


----------



## bernie_king (Apr 27, 2022)

tron said:


> Outperforms how? In reach ? No! In IQ? Only when not being FL limited. In BIF? I would certainly laugh!
> 
> In my opinion, my D500 and D850 with 500mm PF cannot be outperformed easily - in birding photography - since they produce excellent results! I just don't make much use of a TC.
> 
> Regarding Quad pixel there is a chance that Canon might test it in a non-top model first.


Outperforms in tracking, and yes with BIF. I can't speak to the Z6 II personally, but the R5/R6/R3 I can and it's nothing short of amazing. I'm not FL limited (and neither is my friend) as I shoot with a 600 f4. I've never seen a DSLR lock in on the eye of a bird and track it across a frame, even when using a 2X converter. There's a reason why mirrorless cameras are taking over the industry.


----------



## bernie_king (Apr 27, 2022)

Stig Nygaard said:


> Not saying QPAF is to be introduced in an R7, but Canon does not always introduce new technology in flagship bodies. In fact historically 1D bodies has been somehow conservative releases, mostly using technologies already "tested" in lower ranged camera models.
> 
> 
> 
> DualPixel AF was introduced in the EOS 70D.


True, but that wasn't the main method of AF at the time. When it came to that, they kept the best AF in their 1 series cameras.


----------



## AlanF (Apr 27, 2022)

tron said:


> Outperforms how? In reach ? No! In IQ? Only when not being FL limited. In BIF? I would certainly laugh!
> 
> In my opinion, my D500 and D850 with 500mm PF cannot be outperformed easily - in birding photography - since they produce excellent results! I just don't make much use of a TC.
> 
> Regarding Quad pixel there is a chance that Canon might test it in a non-top model first.


What you say is the consensus in the Nikon forums. The birders generally say the D500 and D850 are much better than the Z6 and Z7 IIs for BIF. That is why they are loving the Z9 because it has caught up with the R5.


----------



## Czardoom (Apr 27, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Only time will tell. But...
> 
> 1) I think it's generally a bad idea to bet against @Canon Rumors Guy when it comes to his sources on camera and lens releases. There have been many times in the past when I thought he was dead wrong and was in fact spot on.
> 
> ...


I agree that if this rumored camera is APS-C, then the supposedly confirmed name - and with the target market consisting of wildlife and bird photogs - it will be a high-end camera, spec'ed above the R6 and priced between the R6 and R5. That intended market may not be large, but may be willing to pay premium prices if this is a premium camera. 

For those wanting a mirrorless replacement for their DSLR rebels, welcome to the M50, and the M system in general. That keeps it fairly simple, R system for advanced enthusiasts and pros, M system for those wanting small, simple and inexpensive, but more than a smartphone will provide.


----------



## Blue Zurich (Apr 27, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> I agree that if this rumored camera is APS-C, then the supposedly confirmed name - and with the target market consisting of wildlife and bird photogs - it will be a high-end camera, spec'ed above the R6 and priced between the R6 and R5. That intended market may not be large, but may be willing to pay premium prices if this is a premium camera.
> 
> For those wanting a mirrorless replacement for their DSLR rebels, welcome to the M50, and the M system in general. That keeps it fairly simple, R system for advanced enthusiasts and pros, M system for those wanting small, simple and inexpensive, but more than a smartphone will provide.


Above the R6. Well if your logic starts with how Canon uses the single numeric scheme for it's top line models and 1 designates the highest model.....you see where I'm going with this. I think 7 is just what dreamers want it to be to replace the 7D series. Your description would make it an R5.5


----------



## unfocused (Apr 27, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> Above the R6. Well if your logic starts with how Canon uses the single numeric scheme for it's top line models and 1 designates the highest model.....you see where I'm going with this. I think 7 is just what dreamers want it to be to replace the 7D series. Your description would make it an R5.5


I'm not sure the numbering scheme is that simple/logical. The 7D had a higher number than either the 6D or the 5D, but its specs (aside from sensor size) were always superior to both models of the same generation. When the original 7D came out, it had a much better autofocus system than the then-current 5DII. When the 7DII came out, it was superior to both the 5DIII and 6D in many specs and often described as a mini 1Dx.

We could selectively choose which specs count and which don't, but I strongly suspect that when Canon named it's flagship APS-C camera a 7D, they weren't that caught up in ranking it numerically, but rather it was most likely a marketing decision.


----------



## Blue Zurich (Apr 28, 2022)

unfocused said:


> I'm not sure the numbering scheme is that simple/logical. The 7D had a higher number than either the 6D or the 5D, but its specs (aside from sensor size) were always superior to both models of the same generation. When the original 7D came out, it had a much better autofocus system than the then-current 5DII. When the 7DII came out, it was superior to both the 5DIII and 6D in many specs and often described as a mini 1Dx.
> 
> We could selectively choose which specs count and which don't, but I strongly suspect that when Canon named it's flagship APS-C camera a 7D, they weren't that caught up in ranking it numerically, but rather it was most likely a marketing decision.


It was kind of an outlier, wasn't it? Alright...(I still think we have the crop Canon wants us to have in 'crop mode')


----------



## Czardoom (Apr 28, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> Above the R6. Well if your logic starts with how Canon uses the single numeric scheme for it's top line models and 1 designates the highest model.....you see where I'm going with this. I think 7 is just what dreamers want it to be to replace the 7D series. Your description would make it an R5.5


My logic has nothing to do with price. The R5 is the mirrorless 5D series camera, the R6 is the mirrorless 6D series camera. Thus the R7 apparently will be the mirrorless 7D series camera. That's the logic.


----------



## tapanit (Apr 28, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> That admin is vaporware


Yes. So is the R7 at the moment. Reality in each case remains to be seen.


----------



## tron (Apr 28, 2022)

bernie_king said:


> Outperforms in tracking, and yes with BIF. I can't speak to the Z6 II personally, but the R5/R6/R3 I can and it's nothing short of amazing. I'm not FL limited (and neither is my friend) as I shoot with a 600 f4. I've never seen a DSLR lock in on the eye of a bird and track it across a frame, even when using a 2X converter. There's a reason why mirrorless cameras are taking over the industry.


1. My doubts were for Z6 II 
2. I have both R5 and D500/D850 do you? I agree about focus accuracy for mirrorless (I use R5 with 500mm 4L IS Ii and EF2XIII and eos-rf converter) but not about focus speed/response etc for mirrorless (R3 excluded since I do not have it)


----------



## tron (Apr 28, 2022)

AlanF said:


> What you say is the consensus in the Nikon forums. The birders generally say the D500 and D850 are much better than the Z6 and Z7 IIs for BIF. That is why they are loving the Z9 because it has caught up with the R5.


I believe that Z9 must be a fantastic camera. I especially like the D850 layout and the preshoot buffering. But it must be heavy and it requires an adapter since my only lens is 500mm f/5.6 PF as you well know.

P.S My bag now has both D850/500PF and R5/100-500 with 2X. It is heavy unless I hold a combo and cut the weight to almost half. Both combos are useful to me.


----------



## Blue Zurich (Apr 28, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> My logic has nothing to do with price. The R5 is the mirrorless 5D series camera, the R6 is the mirrorless 6D series camera. Thus the R7 apparently will be the mirrorless 7D series camera. That's the logic.


We were coming at it from different points of view. It's just when the nomenclature was used in forming deductions, I assumed it's common attached hierarchy.

Canon has a system. The 7D was an outlier in that naming scheme. Calling it an R7 is just what CR is doing for a placeholder/ familiarity. Not to mention clicks.

What the issue here really is is simple....an APS-C RF lens using body might be on the way. Where it lies in the lineup is anyone's guess. I sort of think it might not be a numbered, 7, 6, 5, 3, 1 etc camera at all and be an R (pick a letter or name) Not to mention, one name for Japan and another for other areas.

I guess all in all this means nothing to me since I won't be purchasing one no matter the specs as the R6 is all the camera I could wish for.


Oh one more thing....CR1


----------



## lote82 (Apr 28, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> My logic has nothing to do with price. The R5 is the mirrorless 5D series camera, the R6 is the mirrorless 6D series camera. Thus the R7 apparently will be the mirrorless 7D series camera. That's the logic.


I feel you ... but apparently too much logic for notorious "ff-only" and "m-lovers"!


----------



## Kit Chan (Apr 29, 2022)

I just want an M7 that let's me use my M lenses and addresses the lack of EFCS on the M6II.
DigicX and 10 minute 4k 60 recording would be a nice have too.

I don't want bulky RF lenses.

I'm looking to upgrade from my M200 in the latter half of this year for something with more physical controls and less menu tapping and it's so far looking like I might switch to Fuji as going into menus to make sure I'm on electronic or mechanical shutter with the M6II means I'm missing my candid shot.


----------



## GoldWing (Apr 29, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> What about the M5ll? (which would sell far more copies)


The R1 will sell more copies.


----------



## Blue Zurich (Apr 29, 2022)

GoldWing said:


> The R1 will sell more copies.


Can of worms, meet Goldwing


----------



## Kit. (Apr 29, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> the R6 is the mirrorless 6D series camera.


I don't see how. Have you seen dual card slots in a 6D series camera? 12 fps mechanical shutter? 1/250s X-sync?

Or maybe a _joystick_?


----------



## Czardoom (Apr 30, 2022)

Kit. said:


> I don't see how. Have you seen dual card slots in a 6D series camera? 12 fps mechanical shutter? 1/250s X-sync?
> 
> Or maybe a _joystick_?


Let me explain it real simple like...The 5 series DSLRs were higher end more expensive FF cameras. The 6 Series DSLRs were the lower priced, lower spec'ed (but still in the $2000 range) FF cameras. Now, in mirrorless, the R5 is the higher end, more expensive FF camera. The R6 is the lower priced, lower spec'ed (but still in the $2000 range) FF camera. See how easy! That's why they continued using the numbers 5 and 6. To make it simple to understand, even for forum dwellers.


----------



## Kit. (Apr 30, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> Let me explain it real simple like...The 5 series DSLRs were higher end more expensive FF cameras. The 6 Series DSLRs were the lower priced, lower spec'ed (but still in the $2000 range) FF cameras.


Simple - and wrong. 5D series started with 5D and 5DII, and only then got split into (higher than 5DII) 5DIII and (lower than 5DII) 6D.



Czardoom said:


> Now, in mirrorless, the R5 is the higher end, more expensive FF camera. The R6 is the lower priced, lower spec'ed (but still in the $2000 range) FF camera. See how easy!


Wrong again. We have R5, R6, R, and RP. R was positioned between 5DIV and 6DII, R6 is higher-spec'ed than R in everything but resolution, and Canon has already promised a FF camera that would be a lower tier than RP. All this makes your SLR lineup analogy irrelevant.



Czardoom said:


> That's why they continued using the numbers 5 and 6. To make it simple to understand, even for forum dwellers.


They may continue to use whatever numbers they want, but it doesn't make the R6 "the mirrorless 6D series camera".


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 1, 2022)

Kit. said:


> They may continue to use whatever numbers they want, but it doesn't make the R6 "the mirrorless 6D series camera".


Careful. I suggested that the R7 might not be a ‘mirrorless 7D’ and some people became rather upset.


----------



## Czardoom (May 1, 2022)

Kit. said:


> Simple - and wrong. 5D series started with 5D and 5DII, and only then got split into (higher than 5DII) 5DIII and (lower than 5DII) 6D.
> 
> 
> Wrong again. We have R5, R6, R, and RP. R was positioned between 5DIV and 6DII, R6 is higher-spec'ed than R in everything but resolution, and Canon has already promised a FF camera that would be a lower tier than RP. All this makes your SLR lineup analogy irrelevant.
> ...


If you believe that the specs dictate the numbering, so be it. Pretty much everyone else understands the logic of Canon's numbering scheme when it comes to "5" and "6". But if you have to be "Right" - I guess there is no arguing with you. It just seems like an UNBELIEVABLE coincidence that Canon decided to use the numbers 5 and 6 for both of their new RF FF cameras when they were released, when their DSLRs in roughly the same price bracket were also numbered 5 and 6! Wow! How silly of me to think there might be a logical, reasonable explanation!


----------



## David - Sydney (May 2, 2022)

CR3?


----------



## Kit. (May 2, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> If you believe that the specs dictate the numbering, so be it. Pretty much everyone else understands the logic of Canon's numbering scheme when it comes to "5" and "6". But if you have to be "Right" - I guess there is no arguing with you. It just seems like an UNBELIEVABLE coincidence that Canon decided to use the numbers 5 and 6 for both of their new RF FF cameras when they were released, when their DSLRs in roughly the same price bracket were also numbered 5 and 6! Wow! How silly of me to think there might be a logical, reasonable explanation!


What makes you so emotional about the simple observation that R6 is not an 6D series equivalent, but a higher-tier camera?


----------



## entoman (May 2, 2022)

Kit. said:


> What makes you so emotional about the simple observation that R6 is not an 6D series equivalent, but a higher-tier camera?


My opinion:

Canon naming conventions seem to be based on *several* criteria including price range, specification, build quality and target users. Cameras are constantly evolving and it's quite obvious that specifications will become more advanced with each successive model within a numerical designation, hence R5 is far more advanced than 5DS, even though they use the same numerical designation, and are/were the "high megapixel flagships" of their eras.

1D series have always been the pro battleships and the most expensive. Same will apply to "R1" which will be roughly equivalent to Nikon Z9.

5D series have always been "economy pro" and "hi-end serious amateur" FF cameras, as is the case with R5.

6D series have always been "affordable mid-range FF", as is the case with R6.

7D series have always been "economy pro" and "hi-end amateur" APS-C cameras, so logically the same will apply to the "R7". *if it actually exists and uses that designation*.

R3 is clearly an intermediate model between R5 and "R1", and uses the "3" designation because it uses "eye-control AF point selection", just like the EOS 3.

The bottom of range FF models will most likely be single digit "R8" and/or "R9"

As for the expected "mirrorless Rebels", my guess is that they will be called "R10" (double digits for budget APS-C)


----------



## Kit. (May 2, 2022)

entoman said:


> My opinion:
> 
> Canon naming conventions seem to be based on *several* criteria including price range, specification, build quality and target users. Cameras are constantly evolving and it's quite obvious that specifications will become more advanced with each successive model within a numerical designation, hence R5 is far more advanced than 5DS, even though they use the same numerical designation, and are/were the "high megapixel flagships" of their eras.


My opinion:

Canon's naming "conventions" can be given some rationalization in hindsight, but are actually unpredictable. For example, no one outside Canon would predict splitting the 5D series into two after 5DII, nor would expect Canon to come up with RP (and then not with RS, but with R5) either.



entoman said:


> 5D series have always been "economy pro" and "hi-end serious amateur" FF cameras, as is the case with R5.


Actually, the proverbial "5-series" started with EOS *10* (EOS S in the U.S.) in 1991. Then it became EOS 5, then EOS 3.

EOS 5, released in 1992, already had the eye control AF.



entoman said:


> 6D series have always been "affordable mid-range FF", as is the case with R6.


"6D" series was a lower-tier spin-off of the "5-series" after the 5DII. Only two models of the 6D series have been made.

The closest positioning of the R6 would actually be a continuation of "pre-5DIII" 5D series. Similar price to 5DII, similar ergonomics, similar build quality.



entoman said:


> 7D series have always been "economy pro" and "hi-end amateur" APS-C cameras, so logically the same will apply to the "R7". *if it actually exists and uses that designation*.


"7D series" has a history of having only two models and being the slowest updating Canon series ever. EOS 7D was released in 2009, EOS 7DII was released in 2014.



entoman said:


> R3 is clearly an intermediate model between R5 and "R1", and uses the "3" designation because it uses "eye-control AF point selection", just like the EOS 3.


Actually, the closest analogy to EOS 3 in Canon's digital lineup would be EOS 5DIII. EOS R3 is a completely different beast.



entoman said:


> The bottom of range FF models will most likely be single digit "R8" and/or "R9"
> 
> As for the expected "mirrorless Rebels", my guess is that they will be called "R10" (double digits for budget APS-C)


Canon's Rebel models traditionally have 3-digit and 4-digit model numbers.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 26, 2022)

John Wilde said:


> Meh. The 7D II DSLR was priced at $1799 (body only). Canon has contempt for first-time camera buyers who want something new-affordable.


 
It was indeed $1,799 at release in November, 2014. 

However, I bought mine for $1,499 from B&H barely six months after it began shipping. I also got a free Ruggard Commando 36 bag and Watson LP-E6N battery with that $1,499+tax.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 26, 2022)

Kit. said:


> The closest positioning of the R6 would actually be a continuation of "pre-5DIII" 5D series. Similar price to 5DII, similar ergonomics, similar build quality.



If you ever tried to use the 5D Mark II's AF in even moderately low light you'd never compare the R6, with its mind-blowing AF performance, to the 5D Mark II.

The 5D Mark II had near 1-series image quality but a Rebel level AF system.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 26, 2022)

Kit. said:


> My opinion:
> 
> Canon's naming "conventions" can be given some rationalization in hindsight, but are actually unpredictable. For example, no one outside Canon would predict splitting the 5D series into two after 5DII, nor would expect Canon to come up with RP (and then not with RS, but with R5) either.
> 
> ...



Ultimately Canon exists as a sales and marketing organization for the purpose of earning profit by taking in more revenue than the expenses they incur in the process of generating that revenue. As such, the final say in all matters is had by the financial admirals in the corporate suite, not by the engineering lieutenants. The commanders in marketing name product lines based on what senior management (that group of admirals) perceives will identify certain products with certain prospective types of buyers. They determine a price level for which they desire a product to sell, and then engineering goes to work producing a product that can profitably be sold at that price.

As technologies come and go specifications will fluctuate within a particular product line.
As competitors introduce products at similar price points specifications will fluctuate to remain competitive with those similarly priced products.
But various product lines will be identified based primarily on the potential buyers to whom they are marketed, not based on some hierarchy of technical specifications.


----------



## entoman (May 26, 2022)

Kit. said:


> I don't see how. Have you seen dual card slots in a 6D series camera? 12 fps mechanical shutter? 1/250s X-sync?
> 
> Or maybe a _joystick_?


Have you a desire to see technology stand still, just to comply with your imaginary model categorisation?


----------



## Kit. (May 27, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> If you ever tried to use the 5D Mark II's AF in even moderately low light you'd never compare the R6, with its mind-blowing AF performance, to the 5D Mark II.
> 
> The 5D Mark II had near 1-series image quality but a Rebel level AF system.





entoman said:


> Have you a desire to see technology stand still, just to comply with your imaginary model categorisation?


Maybe you both should start arguing with each other?


----------



## Sporgon (May 27, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> If you believe that the specs dictate the numbering, so be it. Pretty much everyone else understands the logic of Canon's numbering scheme when it comes to "5" and "6". But if you have to be "Right" - I guess there is no arguing with you. It just seems like an UNBELIEVABLE coincidence that Canon decided to use the numbers 5 and 6 for both of their new RF FF cameras when they were released, when their DSLRs in roughly the same price bracket were also numbered 5 and 6! Wow! How silly of me to think there might be a logical, reasonable explanation!


Kit has a point: the 5D was not mid range FF at its introduction, it’s was the ‘budget’ model, and very basic. (But wonderful). The five series then grew in stature over the next two models, and the III became a genuinely ‘pro’ level body. At the same time the 6D was introduced which was kind of the spiritual successor to the original 5D as the budget model. Even if we take standards for 2012 compared with now, the R6 is still streaks ahead of what the 6D was, as a simple, slow basic FF camera. The mirrorless equivalent of the 6D is the RP. If Canon introduce a FF camera below the RP series in future it will be a more budget orientated camera than the 6D ever was.


----------



## entoman (May 27, 2022)

Kit. said:


> Maybe you both should start arguing with each other?


I wasn't aware that I was "arguing" with anyone...


----------



## Michael Clark (May 29, 2022)

entoman said:


> Have you a desire to see technology stand still, just to comply with your imaginary model categorisation?



Have you no comprehension of the difference between technological advances (i.e. faster memory card standards) and features (i.e. how many memory card slots a camera has)?


----------



## entoman (May 29, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Have you no comprehension of the difference between technological advances (i.e. faster memory card standards) and features (i.e. how many memory card slots a camera has)?


You seem to be confused - I note that you "liked" my comment, which presumably means you agreed with it?

Rather oddly, you also "liked" Kit's reply, which disagreed with my own comments.

The comment to which I replied was directed at Kit, not you. I assume you and Kit are not the same person.

I've explained the rationale behind my views on Canon's model designation. If you disagree, that's fine, and not worth arguing about. Have a nice day.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 30, 2022)

entoman said:


> You seem to be confused - I note that you "liked" my comment, which presumably means you agreed with it?
> 
> Rather oddly, you also "liked" Kit's reply, which disagreed with my own comments.
> 
> ...



I don't see where anyone has "liked" the comment to which I replied?




The only comment on this page from Kit that I reacted to was a 'Laugh", not a "Like".


----------



## entoman (May 30, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> I don't see where anyone has "liked" the comment to which I replied?
> 
> View attachment 203990
> 
> ...


Well you're giving me a good laugh, so by all means carry on


----------

