# Is the EOS 7D Mark II the last in the 7D series? We’re told that it is [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 18, 2019)

> The follow-up for the Canon EOS 7D Mark II has been talked about for the last year or two, with varying degrees of information being passed onto the rumor sites. This has obviously lead to a lot of speculation about the future of the flagship APS-C shooter Canon.
> We’re now being told that no EOS 7D Mark III is coming down the pipeline from Canon. Instead, we’re going to see a replacement for the EOS 80D that will move slightly upmarket to cover the prosumer and enthusiast APS-C shooters.
> We’re told that there will be an EOS R camera body that will come to replace the EOS 7D Mark II. However, we weren’t told whether or not the replacement would still be APS-C or if we’ll see a full frame camera in its place.
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## Chaitanya (Apr 18, 2019)

Wont be to surprised if indeed 7D series was killed off and x0D series was bumped up tonits previous status.


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## StoicalEtcher (Apr 18, 2019)

"It just happens to make a lot of sense to us."

I'm interested in your final comment, as this surely only makes sense if you think Canon are indeed going to phase out cameras with mirrors?

If one believes Canon really are going to keep mirrored and mirrorless going, as they have said, then I'd have thought normal replacement cycles (allowing for some stretched resource when launching a new line) would make more sense?

I ask out of interest in what else you are hearing, rather than coming out to profess either that the R-series is or isn't the end of the mirror  

Stoical.


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## NetMage (Apr 18, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Wont be to surprised if indeed 7D series was killed off and x0D series was bumped up tonits previous status.


So back to where the 50D and below were? I could live with that.


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## Maximilian (Apr 18, 2019)

The latest iterations of the x0D series were already quite close to the 7D series. 
So a merge sounds reasonable. 
But I would be disappointed if there was too much drop down to x0D and only a little step up in 7D direction. 
We'll see...


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## amorse (Apr 18, 2019)

It's an interesting direction - I've been pretty curious as to what would happen with the 7D series for a while. I always felt that the 7D series was a lot of camera for the price, but the landscape has changed since the 7D II. Lots of lower cost APS-C cameras have a high frame rate now, but not all seem to have the same build quality. I mean, a number of mirrorless cameras are getting outrageous burst speeds when using an electronic shutter, and maybe those are where Canon expect's the competition to be for a 7D-type camera, hence possibly a move to mirrorless.

Maybe that sweet spot for high-speed DSLR cameras is getting too narrow to slot in between the new entries with high frame rates and the 1D series of top end FF speed demons. I guess we'll see


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## Adrianf (Apr 18, 2019)

That could be bad news for an awful lot of amateur wildlife shooters out there who have been putting up with the horrid sensor in the 7D2 in the hope of something better. I'm not yet convinced that mirrorless cameras can handle the focusing required using long lenses and tiny subjects. I know my M50 isn't up to it.


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## crashpc (Apr 18, 2019)

It rather seems obvious to me, with slew of new RF lenses. Or... I believe we will se "last bastion" of Canon DSLRs. 7D III is believable. Also 90D and some kind of 1D. and that´s the end of the road I´d guess.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 18, 2019)

Adrianf said:


> putting up with the horrid sensor in the 7D2


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## NetMage (Apr 18, 2019)

Maximilian said:


> The latest iterations of the x0D series were already quite close to the 7D series.
> So a merge sounds reasonable.
> But I would be disappointed if there was too much drop down to x0D and only a little step up in 7D direction.
> We'll see...



Until they add the extra controls dropped from the 50D such as the back joystick I don't think they are comparable.


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## bichex (Apr 18, 2019)

I hope this rumor is not real. If confirmed, it will be very bad news for me


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## CanoKnight (Apr 18, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Not a new direction. Simply reverting back to pre 2009. I actually like my 7d2. If the 7d2 had offered video comparable to the Gh4 , or a 7d3 to a Gh5 I wouldn't have left Canon .


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## rrcphoto (Apr 18, 2019)

CanoKnight said:


> Not a new direction. Simply reverting back to pre 2009. I actually like my 7d2. If the 7d2 had offered video comparable to the Gh4 , or a 7d3 to a Gh5 I wouldn't have left Canon .



they can't easily. they would have to drop the articulating screen, then basically you'd have a 7D Mark III anyways. the pre 2009 camera basically turned into the 7D. The 60D was stripped down from the pre 2009. that's what it will be going forward it seems.

this rumor seems to be stating that outside of maybe some better performance and perhaps better weathersealing, we're getting a 90D and the 7D Mark III just doesn't happen. the pre-2009 camera line ceases to exist.


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## haggie (Apr 18, 2019)

I have been fearing this for some months already.
A few months ago, at a gathering for the R-series, a Canon employee (and not just anybody) told that Canon was perfectly happy with competing the D500 with the 7D Mk II: it is so much cheaper that it keeps Nikon from gaining too much market share and thus gives Canon "other opportunities". He would say no more.

But whether this particulat rumor is true or not: it was clear that a top-of-the-line cropped camera for action photographers by Canon is far away.

If by the end of this year, no 7D Mk III is anounced, I will switch to the D500. I want the best cropped action camera there is available. Price is not that important.
If Canon does not want to offer it, then I have only one choice; to change brand.
I am sure my present Canon rear will sell quite well, so no problem in that area.

This does not make me happy, after using Canon SLRs and SLRs for 30 years.
But I am sure that those that like to reply "go to Nikon then" to posters who write about relative advantages of the Nikon D500, will be quite content to read this.


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## Andreasb (Apr 18, 2019)

I agree completely with you, and a s a message to Canon, it is now 5 years ago pretty much since the 7DMKII came out and If there is no serious replacement camera with better AF and Sensor, I'm selling my Canon Gear (2 x 7DMKII, 600mm IS II, 400 DO II, etc etc,) and going back to Nikon.. 

As a birder I need reach and smaller files, and its just not about selling camera bodies to me and others its about long expensive lenses too, not delivering a 7DMKIII will have some very serious bottom line implications.




Adrianf said:


> That could be bad news for an awful lot of amateur wildlife shooters out there who have been putting up with the horrid sensor in the 7D2 in the hope of something better. I'm not yet convinced that mirrorless cameras can handle the focusing required using long lenses and tiny subjects. I know my M50 isn't up to it.


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## Philrp (Apr 18, 2019)

I am possibly crazy to think this, but i'm expecting the following quote to mean that the M5 mark II could be the 7D replacement. If a higher end EOS M sells well there could be a crop R in the future...

"The second camera we’re told that is coming for sure in 2019 is a replacement to the Canon EOS M5. We’re told this camera will feature an all-new 24mp sensor and would put a larger gap in features between the top of the EOS M lineup and the EOS M50."


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## unfocused (Apr 18, 2019)

haggie said:


> ... (if) no 7D Mk III is announced, I will switch to the D500...



This is one reason why I don't believe the rumor. While I usually do an eye-roll when people threaten "I'm switching..." I do think this is a reasonable concern that Canon is surely aware of. Several thoughts (some conflicting)


For birders, it's all about the lenses and unless you have the means to buy a $7,000+ big white lens, Nikon, Sigma and Tamron offer the only options over 400mm. My point is that the camera body is really just an accessory for the lens, so switching camera brands is not as big of a deal as it might be in other cases. On top of that, the cost of travel is often a much bigger investment than the equipment. All that means that these buyers are less bound to Canon than others. 
It's very hard to move customers downward, as Canon found with the 50D to 60D move. So, the 90D would need to be a significant upgrade in fps, ergonomics and durability to hold on to customers.
On the other hand, I have found the higher megapixel count, improved autofocus, additional f8 focus points and improved low-light performance of the 5DIV to often overcome the lack of reach and slower fps when compared to the 7DII. (I find the buffer a bigger problem than the slower frame rate.) In the back of my mind, I've thought that if the 5D series ever gets to about 35mp, it would pretty much eliminate my desire for the 7D. However, we are a generation or more away from that happening.
Nikon tried abandoning this market and eventually found they had to come back to it in a costly way in order to retain and try to win back customers. I find it hard to believe that Canon would repeat the same mistake.
Canon would need to have one heck of a lot of improvements in their mirrorless bodies to compete with the 7D and I don't think the technology is there yet, so I find that option implausible.


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## Don Haines (Apr 18, 2019)

NetMage said:


> Until they add the extra controls dropped from the 50D such as the back joystick I don't think they are comparable.



My main reason for the 7D2 was the robustness. I wanted a camera that could withstand rugged use in poor conditions, yet be more portable than the 1DX. No other option in the Canon lineup than this beast!


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## rrcphoto (Apr 18, 2019)

Philrp said:


> I am possibly crazy to think this, but i'm expecting the following quote to mean that the M5 mark II could be the 7D replacement. If a higher end EOS M sells well there could be a crop R in the future...



would be kind of impossible really for Canon to think this. none of the M bodies are weather sealed, and certainly none of the lenses are. then you have the fact that outside of maybe the 32mm 1.4 most of the lenses are not enthusiast / prosumer, but more consumer lenses.


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## Trey T (Apr 18, 2019)

Maximilian said:


> The latest iterations of the x0D series were already quite close to the 7D series.
> So a merge sounds reasonable.
> But I would be disappointed if there was too much drop down to x0D and only a little step up in 7D direction.
> We'll see...


Of course we’ll be disappointed. People aren’t going to pay 7D money for 80D camera. I hope I’m wrong. 

I need a new 7D, and it would be better if EOS R line offer 7D alternative


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## rrcphoto (Apr 18, 2019)

this seems to cover alot .. 

https://www.canonnews.com/new-rumor-the-7d-mark-iii-is-no-more 

I have to agree, this makes me sad if they dump the 7D, I went from the EOS-3 to the 20D, 30D, 40D, 50D, 7D, to the 7D Mark II.. I have zero interest in the 80D line.


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## Trey T (Apr 18, 2019)

rrcphoto said:


> this seems to cover alot ..
> 
> https://www.canonnews.com/new-rumor-the-7d-mark-iii-is-no-more
> 
> I have to agree, this makes me sad if they dump the 7D, I went from the EOS-3 to the 20D, 30D, 40D, 50D, 7D, to the 7D Mark II.. I have zero interest in the 80D line.


I've only shot w/ 7D and 5DII and didn't realize that 80D is a more popular camera than 7D. Now I think about it, when the 7D came out in 2009, they were closing the gap between x0D and 1D for customer satisfaction, not particularly profit margin. Perhaps now, they focus more on the R line for customer satisfaction, and then the EF line for profit margin. If that logic is true, 7D should be dropped. That yield new opportunity for the R line to have a "sport" camera @ $2000-2500 price point.


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## QuisUtDeus (Apr 18, 2019)

haggie said:


> But I am sure that those that like to reply "go to Nikon then" to posters who write about relative advantages of the Nikon D500, will be quite content to read this.



That depends: will you switch to Nikon and leave well enough alone, or switch and continue hanging around here beating the drum?


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## ethanz (Apr 18, 2019)

unfocused said:


> This is one reason why I don't believe the rumor. While I usually do an eye-roll when people threaten "I'm switching..." I do think this is a reasonable concern that Canon is surely aware of. Several thoughts (some conflicting)
> 
> 
> For birders, it's all about the lenses and unless you have the means to buy a $7,000+ big white lens, Nikon, Sigma and Tamron offer the only options over 400mm. My point is that the camera body is really just an accessory for the lens, so switching camera brands is not as big of a deal as it might be in other cases. On top of that, the cost of travel is often a much bigger investment than the equipment. All that means that these buyers are less bound to Canon than others.
> ...



Send an email to Canon and remind them about that


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## Maximilian (Apr 18, 2019)

Trey T said:


> Of course we’ll be disappointed. People aren’t going to pay 7D money for 80D camera. I hope I’m wrong.
> 
> I need a new 7D, and it would be better if EOS R line offer 7D alternative


And I hope, Canon is offering something useful, maybe not at 7D II level (AF, speed, built, sealing), but maybe close to that.
Of course hope dies last ...


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## mpb001 (Apr 18, 2019)

It makes sense that they merge the two high end APSC bodies. I would think that they keep at least a partial metal body with good weather seals. I shoot with a 5DIV and suspect we might see one more 5D series body before that series goes totally mirrorless.


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## jtf (Apr 18, 2019)

I've already decided more or less to wait for a FF EOS R with sports and wildlife capabilities to replace my 6D/7D - 2 birds with 1 stone. If there is in fact no 7DIII on the horizon I'm hopeful the R camera I'm waiting for gets here sooner than later.


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## Hector1970 (Apr 18, 2019)

I'm a bit surprised. I was expecting a 7DIII and if the sensor was better than the current one I would have been tempted.
The current sensor is only mediocre but the focusing system was good and its very well built.
I've been very hard on my one in all sorts of weather conditions for sports shooting and its been extremely reliable.
I'm surprised I haven't worn out the shutter.
I can understand smaller and lighter for many things but for outdoor all weather conditions I want something robust and well sealed.
I use it with a 300 2.8 II, 100-400 II and 70-200 II and they all need the weight of the 7DII to have a good balanced feel.


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## digigal (Apr 18, 2019)

Totally discouraging. My 7DMII has 350,000 clicks and has been to every continent and a picture from it currently hangs in the Nature's Best exhibit in the Smithsonian. It's a workhorse and takes any abuse and lets me handhold my 100-400 II and get equivalent pictures of shooting with a 600 mm lens on a FF body which I could never manage weight wise. I guess I'll buy a new one while I still can and wait to see what unfolds over the next several years.


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## EduPortas (Apr 18, 2019)

I'm not buying it.

1) Canon has invested millions of dollars in the technology _behind_ the 7D series. It' very
unlike a Japanese company to go bonkers and leave all that technology without current representation.

2) There is no substitute for the OVF...yet. Most 7D users are very picky on this subject.
A move like this would alienate a good number of hardcore Canon customers with a ton of EF
lenses that work superbly with a traditional OVF, not an EVF.

3) It would eliminate the natural upgrade path to the 5D series.
Both bodies are very much alike. The feel like a brick. Buttons are almost in the same place.
In fact, it's not rare to see photographers and photojournalists out in the wild with a 5D in one hand
and a 7D on a shoulder sling.

4) The market is small, but it's still there. Nikon's D500 should be the mark to beat, not your own 1DX.
Arguably, Nikon's model is one of the better camera's they've released in the last decade.

5) Mirror slap. Canon included a new mirror box module with the 7DM2 to
make it tougher and less prone to mirror slap. Where is the added space in the cheaper
XXD line for this feature? There's a reason the 7D is so heavy and so firmly built.
The 80D, which is nice, is _not_ in the same ergonomic league. For speed demons, like birders, this is crucial.

If I were to place a bet, I would put $ on the 6D M2 being the last of its kind, not the 7D M2.
With the prior model, you have everything and more in the mirrorless option, but not with the APS-C model.

In that sense, and in many others, the 7D is unique.


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## SouthpawSD (Apr 18, 2019)

So the 90D will have 2 card slots and weather sealing?


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## Trey T (Apr 18, 2019)

EduPortas said:


> I'm not buying it.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Oh, I think EVF is gonna blow the OVF out of the water with viewing assists (focus peaking and zebra stripes). I wonder if the R or RP have that for the EVF. 

I used the 7D a lot more than the 5DII. I just prefer the crop sensor more and epic bokeh is not my style of photography.


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## LSXPhotog (Apr 18, 2019)

If the 80D replacement can legitimately fill the void as a 7D Alternative, then I'll be OK with it from my perspective and needs. Perhaps we see a return of the APS-H sensor size in the RF mount as a lower tier sports camera before a 1DX replacement makes it to the RF mount.

I'll be honest, even as an EOS R and 1DX owner, it would take a pretty convincing and bullet proof camera to be a trusted replacement 1DX Mark II in RF mount. I legitimately don't believe Canon can surpass it with their current technology and they know this.


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## LSXPhotog (Apr 18, 2019)

SouthpawSD said:


> So the 90D will have 2 card slots and weather sealing?



The 80D already had some weather sealing, but dual cards has got to happen...the D7100 had them back in 2013, followed by the D7200 and D7500 - all of which come at the same price point of the 80D.


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## dolina (Apr 18, 2019)

DSLR will never become obsolete... mirrorless is a lie...


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## CanoKnight (Apr 18, 2019)

haggie said:


> I have been fearing this for some months already.
> A few months ago, at a gathering for the R-series, a Canon employee (and not just anybody) told that Canon was perfectly happy with competing the D500 with the 7D Mk II: it is so much cheaper that it keeps Nikon from gaining too much market share and thus gives Canon "other opportunities". He would say no more.
> 
> But whether this particulat rumor is true or not: it was clear that a top-of-the-line cropped camera for action photographers by Canon is far away.
> ...



Canon is eating their own. They have driven video enthusiasts like myself away to Panasonic (or Sony), about to drive action enthusiasts like yourself to Nikon or others. Looks like the only segment they are competing on are the cheap toy cameras like the SL's. Their top brass should sit down and commit Hara Kiri.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 18, 2019)

Andreasb said:


> ...its just not about selling camera bodies to me and others its about long expensive lenses too, not delivering a 7DMKIII will have some very serious bottom line implications.


Baseless claims like this amuse me. Tell us...how much research have you conducted to determine the global size of the market for a 7DIII? Surveyed a few thousand people, have you? Examined global sales of the 7-series line as the frame rates increased on the xxD series? Tell us...how many owners of the original 7D upgraded to a 7DII, and how many to a 70D/80D? Of course, the answers to those questions are none, no, no, and you have no clue. But you want a 7DIII and if you don’t get one you’ll either switch to Nikon or stamp your foot and hold your breath until you turn blue, so that means Canon’s bottom line will suffer. Sure.

Consider this: Canon is in the best position to determine whether or not developing and launching a 7DIII vs. an amalgamated 7/xxD body, would benefit their bottom line. If it’s the former, we’ll see a 7DIII...and if not, we won’t. Their goal is not to make people happy, so if you personally buy Nikon or pass out with a blue face, they don’t give a damn.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 18, 2019)

CanoKnight said:


> Canon is eating their own. They have driven video enthusiasts like myself away to Panasonic (or Sony), about to drive action enthusiasts like yourself to Nikon or others. Looks like the only segment they are competing on are the cheap toy cameras like the SL's. Their top brass should sit down and commit Hara Kiri.


And yet...they have ~50% of the ILC market share. They’ve been the ILC market leader for 16 years, and since they took the lead they’ve gained market share, and in the past five or so years they haven’t lost any of it. They’re doing quite well. The only reason they’d need to commit seppuku is if they all-of-a-sudden decided to pay heed to the ramblings of disgruntled forum dwellers such as yourself.


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## 7D MkII (Apr 18, 2019)

Since Sony A7III apears, I've been waiting Canon's respounce. Someting to replace my 7D MkII. Maybe a new body with more focus points, better AF or eye tracking, tilting or variable angle touchscreen, a better sensor, and of course, more speed, with a reasonable price.

But Canon simply insists on low specification bodies with high prices.

Maybe is time to change for Sony and forget about Canon.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 18, 2019)

7D MkII said:


> But Canon simply insists on low specification bodies with high prices.
> 
> Maybe is time to change for Sony and forget about Canon.


Sounds like it. No doubt the grass will be greener. H & G.


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## Hector1970 (Apr 18, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Baseless claims like this amuse me. Tell us...how much research have you conducted to determine the global size of the market for a 7DIII? Surveyed a few thousand people, have you? Examined global sales of the 7-series line as the frame rates increased on the xxD series? Tell us...how many owners of the original 7D upgraded to a 7DII, and how many to a 70D/80D? Of course, the answers to those questions are none, no, no, and you have no clue. But you want a 7DIII and if you don’t get one you’ll either switch to Nikon or stamp your foot and hold your breath until you turn blue, so that means Canon’s bottom line will suffer. Sure.
> 
> Consider this: Canon is in the best position to determine whether or not developing and launching a 7DIII vs. an amalgamated 7/xxD body, would benefit their bottom line. If it’s the former, we’ll see a 7DIII...and if not, we won’t. Their goal is not to make people happy, so if you personally buy Nikon or pass out with a blue face, they don’t give a damn.


There is also plenty of evidence of companies who knew all the data about their products and the market they were in but still made very bad product decisions and subsequently lost lots of market share and went out of business. Usually its because they didn't listen to their customers. or anticipated changes in the market . As an investment firm is forced to tell you past performance is not a guarantee of future results. Lots of companies do well in markets until things reach a tipping point . Members here would tend to be hard core and not necessarily representative of Canon's customers at large. However they are influencers. Canon sell alot of low range MILCs and XXD's on the strength of the reputation of its top end gear in terms of camera's and lens. While the lens go from strength to strength the improvements in camera's are more modest. It's probably why Canon are taking their time with the 1DX III or 1DR as they feel its needs to more than equal to its competitors.


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## Architect1776 (Apr 18, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Very glad to see this. I like the idea of Canon going after the RF mount seriously. Yes I like my 7D but really like the direction the RF mount is going. I am hoping IBIS will come soon as that will be the feature that gets me out of the EF system.
Why? Because ALL my FD, FL and R lenses will have IS and not need a glass lens in the mount converter. At least that is my hope. I know Canon would rather sell me the new RF lenses and I am sure I will buy some but what a dream to fully resurrect my old film lenses with IS.


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## digigal (Apr 18, 2019)

I will add that I'm now seeing multiple top international wild life professional photographers and tour leaders switching/adding Sony MILC to their kits. These were Canon diehards for decades with big kits. These are people whose livelihood depends on their photography--not "happy snappers"-- and they have influence on the people who travel with them with lots of bucks to spend on gear who are not buying little starter kits that Canon needs to sell a million of to make a profit on. They're also people who need long lenses too. I have to say I've been quite shocked at how fast this has been happening. It's these "influencers" that Canon also needs to be concerned about.


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## Don Haines (Apr 19, 2019)

7D MkII said:


> Maybe is time to change for Sony and forget about Canon.


I assume you are going Sony for the weather sealing and ergonomics......


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## canonnews (Apr 19, 2019)

Hector1970 said:


> There is also plenty of evidence of companies who knew all the data about their products and the market they were in but still made very bad product decisions and subsequently lost lots of market share and went out of business. Usually its because they didn't listen to their customers. or anticipated changes in the market . As an investment firm is forced to tell you past performance is not a guarantee of future results. Lots of companies do well in markets until things reach a tipping point . Members here would tend to be hard core and not necessarily representative of Canon's customers at large. However they are influencers. Canon sell alot of low range MILCs and XXD's on the strength of the reputation of its top end gear in terms of camera's and lens. While the lens go from strength to strength the improvements in camera's are more modest. It's probably why Canon are taking their time with the 1DX III or 1DR as they feel its needs to more than equal to its competitors.



Canon does alot of things right. They sell to every segment of the market , and they continue to refresh cameras to every single segment of the market. No other company offers the breadth of cameras lines to consumers and professionals as a whole as Canon does.
Their service and support is top notch (at least in most countries) especially if you compare it against the majority of over camera companies (not naming names but here's looking at you Mr Alpha), and for the most part, outside of a few memorable gaffs, their cameras just seem to work. I think personally that enthusiasts (me included) have an over inflated idea on where we stand in the global marketplace of probably around 40-70 million ILC users.

But back to this thread..

While I get it if this happens, a) there's not enough headroom above an 90D for a 7D Mark III (probably false though - see article on CN) b) there's not enough money between a 90D and what a 7D Mark III could fetch these days (could be a problem) c) Canon is tired of making high end DSLR's and wants to focus their main engineering talent on R's (quite possible). These of course are guesses, but they would seem legit from the sniff test anyways.

But it's not as easy as merging the lines together and making a "90D" like the old 50D of years gone by (that was another article if you haven't read it), there's alot of considerations to that. 

I personally will think it's the end of an era if they dump the 7D line as I wrote on our article about this rumor. I started with the 20D after leaving film from my beloved EOS-3 and purchased every xxD up to and including the 50D, then moved to the 7D series. Even though now I use mirrorless, the xxD / 7D line has a special place in my past and heart.


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## Otara (Apr 19, 2019)

One thing I really like about the EOS R for nature is really being able to take a silent shot, as well as switch between video and stills with the viewfinder, use zoom mag as a telescope etc. Dont know how much that plays into other wildlife photogs, but thats why there isnt much likelihood a 7d3 would interest me now.


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## crazyrunner33 (Apr 19, 2019)

7D MkII said:


> Since Sony A7III apears, I've been waiting Canon's respounce. Someting to replace my 7D MkII. Maybe a new body with more focus points, better AF or eye tracking, tilting or variable angle touchscreen, a better sensor, and of course, more speed, with a reasonable price.
> 
> But Canon simply insists on low specification bodies with high prices.
> 
> Maybe is time to change for Sony and forget about Canon.



Canon's response to the A7 III is the EOS R. The A7 III and Nikon Z6 are the best full frame hybrid shooters. The Canon is better for ergonomics for photography and being able to shoot some video when needed. There's some who shoot with both the A7 III. And there's a reason they still have the Canon in their arsenal. 




Otara said:


> One thing I really like about the EOS R for nature is really being able to take a silent shot, as well as switch between video and stills with the viewfinder, use zoom mag as a telescope etc. Dont know how much that plays into other wildlife photogs, but thats why there isnt much likelihood a 7d3 would interest me now.



Add in the fact that the higher megapixel full frames are coming with pixel density to match the APS C and even M43. The digital crop will result in equal or better focal lengths and give more wiggle room reframe a shot. Crop shooting more should also be possible for those not wanting to deal with large file sizes(even though memory cards and large drives are dirt cheap).


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## Brown (Apr 19, 2019)

What is the point of an APS-C R body?


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 19, 2019)

digigal said:


> ...and they have influence on the people who travel with them with lots of bucks to spend on gear who are not buying little starter kits that Canon needs to sell a million of to make a profit on.


Sorry, but the tail doesn’t wag the dog.


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## MartinF. (Apr 19, 2019)

It makes a lot of sense. Being a 6D shooter myself, I think we will neither see a 6D mkIII as well. A guess that there will be a 1DX mkIII, and maybe a 5DmkV and that will be last two fullframe DSLRs. And then now the last prosumer X0D/7D in one body. But hey - it will be 10+ years from now before they are obsolete or worn out. I my inner I do hope for one generation more, but I doubt.
The future is mirrorless, I quess we all know that. The next two years will tell us a lot more about speed of the transition.


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## Chaitanya (Apr 19, 2019)

LSXPhotog said:


> The 80D already had some weather sealing, but dual cards has got to happen...the D7100 had them back in 2013, followed by the D7200 and D7500 - all of which come at the same price point of the 80D.


D7000 started the trend of dual Sd slot on mid range dslr and then with D7500 dual slots and battery grip support was dropped by nikon.


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## sanj (Apr 19, 2019)

DSLR's on their way out. Of course they are. Fret all you want.


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## Nord0306 (Apr 19, 2019)

I am extremely happy with my 80D, yes I know there are advantages that the 7Dii has and I wish I had, specifically the frame rate, but I get by. I'm happy not to have a huge heavy body around the same size sensor. I'm happy I have a flippy touchscreen and other things that I use all the time. It would be nice to have a joystick, but I use a combination of buttons, dials and the touchscreen to navigate much faster than the joystick for most things. I almost always leave the 5Diii home unless I know I'm shooting at high ISO. I also like the built in flash for fill so I don't have to carry one all the time. This is going to be the biggest hurdle for me going to FF is nobody puts a flash on one.

I'm happy to wait another year for a RP body to replace the 80D, I just hope it has better AF and a faster frame rate otherwise it won't be an upgrade for me.


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## Sator (Apr 19, 2019)

Count me in as a sceptic about this latest piece of gossip (it doesn't even deserve to be called a rumour).

For a start, Canon has no other top of the line APS-C system (system meaning not only bodies but lenses as well) for shooting sports and wildlife. The EOS-M system is certainly in no position to replace the 7DII. Nor is it likely that Canon will start an APS-C line of R mount cameras—even if they did, there would be no lens system in place for shooting sports and wildlife.

Secondly, there is a point of an SLR APS-C system and it lies in that there is a wider spread across the viewfinder of focus points. These focus points come from a dedicated off-focal plane PDAF sensor which guarantees ultra fast capture in a way that on-focal plane PDAF struggles to keep up with.

Lastly, although I have said this many times before, I will repeat this prediction once again. Once EVFs improve to the point that viewfinder lag becomes imperceptible to the human eye, Canon will reintroduce the pellicle mirror design of SLT cameras to the EF mount. Canon last had a semi-translucent pellicle mirror in their 1995 EOS-1N RS (production ceased in 2001). This will allow the on-focal plane sensor dual-pixel PDAF to be integrated with the off-focal plane PDAF points. You will have nearly everything that "mirrorless" cameras have (e.g. exposure preview, and a wide spread of PDAF points) without having to abandon decades of SLR lens development. It will also eliminate mirror shock, important once frame rates reach closer to the 20fps mark (and beyond), as you start to push the limits of the ability of a mechanical reflex mirror to move up and down.

N.b. the term "mirrorless" is a problematic term. There is nothing new about cameras without mirrors. In fact, the earliest cameras in the 1820s were "mirrorless" designs. Rangefinders are mirrorless cameras. The only real innovation with digital "mirrorless" cameras is the EVF. The real question is when EVF technology will mature sufficiently to the point that a professional sports photographer will be unable to notice viewfinder lag, at which point the technology will be mature enough to put into an SLT camera.


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## transpo1 (Apr 19, 2019)

digigal said:


> Totally discouraging. My 7DMII has 350,000 clicks and has been to every continent and a picture from it currently hangs in the Nature's Best exhibit in the Smithsonian. It's a workhorse and takes any abuse and lets me handhold my 100-400 II and get equivalent pictures of shooting with a 600 mm lens on a FF body which I could never manage weight wise. I guess I'll buy a new one while I still can and wait to see what unfolds over the next several years.



Would love to see that picture!  Post for us or point us to it if you can...or at least tell us what it is so the next time I'm in DC, I can check it out.


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## Kharan (Apr 19, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Sorry, but the tail doesn’t wag the dog.



Oh, it's lovely to see you spout such oblivious nonsense! This isn't just "a tail" - some ancillary part that Canon can let fall by the wayside - it's _literally how they took the #1 spot away from Nikon_. Highly advanced bodies with sophisticated features, a futuristic lens mount, and the best supertelephoto lenses on the market; this is how they came to rule the roost.

Letting such a market slip away will prove fatal for them mid- and long-term. I can assure you 100% that Canon are absolutely committed to avoid this trap - the question is, will they succeed?


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 19, 2019)

Kharan said:


> Oh, it's lovely to see you spout such oblivious nonsense! This isn't just "a tail" - some ancillary part that Canon can let fall by the wayside - it's _literally how they took the #1 spot away from Nikon_. Highly advanced bodies with sophisticated features, a futuristic lens mount, and the best supertelephoto lenses on the market; this is how they came to rule the roost.
> 
> Letting such a market slip away will prove fatal for them mid- and long-term. I can assure you 100% that Canon are absolutely committed to avoid this trap - the question is, will they succeed?


Canon took over the ILC market because of photo-safari leaders? Yes, that certainly qualifies as oblivious nonsense. I mean, it couldn’t have had anything to do with the first sub-$1K DSLR, right? Have you noticed that it’s 2019, that Canon has been the ILC market leader for 16 years, that 2019 – 16 = 2003, or that 2003 was the year the Digital Rebel / EOS 300D launched at $899? Meh, that’s all just coincidence. 

As for the high end, if the sidelines at major sporting events stop being decorated with a sea of Canon lenses, then Canon can worry. Not that that’s likely to happen any time soon. If photo-safari leaders switch, 6-10 people at a time will notice. That’s the ‘tail’ to which I referred. 

Next time you might consider responding to what is posted, instead of your (over)interpretation of what is posted. That might help you spout less oblivious nonsense in the future.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Apr 19, 2019)

With camera sales dropping, and Canon offering a growing line of mirrorless models, they are likely making the tough decision, drop the less profitable models.Although I had three 7D's, I never warmed up to the 7D MK II and went to FF instead. The ability to gather more light was the reason for me. 

There will be some who will be disappointed, but I won't miss it. If there is a plan to provide the functionality in a mirrorless body, then there is something new waiting in the wings as far as processors and sensors.


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## Aussie shooter (Apr 19, 2019)

This is massively disappointing news if true. Depending on how good a 90d is of course or how good an evf they can produce for a mirrorless. The big fear thougg is the robust build quality of the 7d2 and the professional ergonomics. The xxd series just don't have this and I find it hard to believe a mirrorless replacement could manage it either. For me however it won't be a situation where I consider changing brands as there is no other brand(even nikon(who are the next best) that I find even remotely comfortable or intuitive to use. Lets hope it is an incorrect rumor and that in about 2 years I will have an upgraded model to replace my mk2


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## drob (Apr 19, 2019)

Brown said:


> What is the point of an APS-C R body?


I don't get why there would need to be an APRS-C R body also if the R and RP have crop modes (or does the crop mode only work with EF-S lenses?). I guess the only thing is that the sensor would be cheaper.


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## masterpix (Apr 19, 2019)

A few days ago, someone wrote that in a conversation with Canon officials, they said that they are listening to their customers, and for some reason, this time they believed they are. I hope that they are reading this blog-conversation because they will eventually understand that the 7D line is a unique creature, it is a pro APC camera, and as such, until they produce a mirror-less that can replace it, which I doubt, they need to continue with this line, at least one more model, as they will probably do with the 1DX.

As for switching: most people won't because it is, as said many times, the lenses are the big issue here, I have EF lenses going back to 1996, and therefore, building my line of lenses even since, I won't hurry to "sell them" to anyone. However, using an attempting EF-to-mirror-less converter will eventually be the option that will be chosen in the end. The fact I can use both EF and EFs lenses on the same converter and get a FF images, is just a bonus.

However, as said before, there is no current replacement in the R system to the 7D, and Canon will do well if they will not even try to, they need to focus on the 1Dx - R replacement, not an APC - R camera. 

That is my opinion, as much as it worth.


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## Lars Elvstrøm (Apr 19, 2019)

I think I am changing to Nikon. I was looking so much forward for the 7D III. Too bad.


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## unfocused (Apr 19, 2019)

Lars Elvstrøm said:


> I think I am changing to Nikon. I was looking so much forward for the 7D III. Too bad.


You are switching because of a CR1 rumor?


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## digigal (Apr 19, 2019)

> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > Would love to see that picture!  Post for us or point us to it if you can...or at least tell us what it is so the next time I'm in DC, I can check it out.
> ...


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## mb66energy (Apr 19, 2019)

Adrianf said:


> That could be bad news for an awful lot of amateur wildlife shooters out there who have been putting up with the horrid sensor in the 7D2 in the hope of something better. I'm not yet convinced that mirrorless cameras can handle the focusing required using long lenses and tiny subjects. I know my M50 isn't up to it.



The M50 with EF 5.6 400 and 2x TC is much better in AF compared to the 7D


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Apr 19, 2019)

Canon would do this only if the APS-C R body can do AI Servo AF at 10+FPS, the EVF would have infinite resolution, would be lag-free & noise-free, would consume little battery life, and the xxD target market is willing to pay more than 80D prices for 7D features. Otherwise, I think the 90D body would be more likely to be the one that would be binned for an MILC variant.


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## mb66energy (Apr 19, 2019)

7D MkII said:


> Since Sony A7III apears, I've been waiting Canon's respounce. Someting to replace my 7D MkII. Maybe a new body with more focus points, better AF or eye tracking, tilting or variable angle touchscreen, a better sensor, and of course, more speed, with a reasonable price.
> 
> *But Canon simply insists on low specification bodies with high prices.*
> 
> Maybe is time to change for Sony and forget about Canon.



Maybe I am not the typical canonrumors reader but I use M50 and 200D with some success when it comes to use them as tools to take photos. My experience during the buying process was that they have low prices but providing a lot of specs.
I cannot see alternatives to M50 + EF-M f/1.4 32 @ 1100 EUR/$ for photography and some video.

For me the most important specification is IQ which itself isn't easy to specify. I am satisfied with IQ and I am very critical with that: Natural color, natural textures. Reliable exposure and very accurate and precise AF with DPAF as an important addition to use the available DR and quality of the lenses.


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## mb66energy (Apr 19, 2019)

drob said:


> I don't get why there would need to be an APRS-C R body also if the R and RP have crop modes (or does the crop mode only work with EF-S lenses?). I guess the only thing is that the sensor would be cheaper.



If you want to conserve ~24 MPix resolution for APS-C AND conserve the option for FF the overall pixel count be in the 60 MPix region (24 x 1.6²) - in that case the APS-C sensor would be much cheaper and the readout too which might affect the CPU selection, maybe 60MPix were only feasible with dual DIGIC 8 etc.

I am interested in a ~ 60-70 MPix EOS R body with
Full-Res mode / quarter Res mode w. 15-18 MPix (available light, small file size) / Good APS-C support
and
corresponding video modes with FullHD and 4k w/o additional crop including 24 fps.
as "Eierlegende Wollmilchsau" (animal which produces eggs, wool, milk and meat)


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## Pape (Apr 19, 2019)

Having lower full frame pixel density was last excuse for having 7 line camera around .There isnt any acceptable quality long tele on EF-S category.
Crop is consumer and always been.
Canon obviously thinks new high megapixel R is good enough for bird photographers who doesnt want use tele converter.
Lets see first how many digic processor they stuff inside body , before you sell your canon lenses.
7dii and highmegapixel R could be on same price category ?


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## Aussie shooter (Apr 19, 2019)

Pape said:


> Having lower full frame pixel density was last excuse for having 7 line camera around .There isnt any acceptable quality long tele on EF-S category.
> Crop is consumer and always been.
> Canon obviously thinks new high megapixel R is good enough for bird photographers who doesnt want use tele converter.
> Lets see first how many digic processor they stuff inside body , before you sell your canon lenses.
> 7dii and highmegapixel R could be on same price category ?


I can't see a 7d series body and a high MP r body being a similar price. In Aus a 7d2 is around 2500. A high mp r body that can shoot at 10fps and has 7d quality ergonomics and build quality is going to be waaaay more than that. Minimum 5k. So double the price.and if it doesn't have the same build quality or shoot in servo at 10plus fps then it isn't a substitute for a 7series.


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## blackcoffee17 (Apr 19, 2019)

Pape said:


> Having lower full frame pixel density was last excuse for having 7 line camera around .There isnt any acceptable quality long tele on EF-S category.
> Crop is consumer and always been.
> Canon obviously thinks new high megapixel R is good enough for bird photographers who doesnt want use tele converter.
> Lets see first how many digic processor they stuff inside body , before you sell your canon lenses.
> 7dii and highmegapixel R could be on same price category ?



That's why so many full time wildlife photographers are using 7D's because it's consumer only. Who cares about EF-S lenses. The 7D is to be used with 100-400, 500, 600mm big whites. The big megapixel R will need to have 50MP+, at least 10FPS and AF-C/buffer on par with the 7D to compete. 
And even then it would not compete with double the price.


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## Don Haines (Apr 19, 2019)

blackcoffee17 said:


> That's why so many full time wildlife photographers are using 7D's because it's consumer only. Who cares about EF-S lenses. The 7D is to be used with 100-400, 500, 600mm big whites. The big megapixel R will need to have 50MP+, at least 10FPS and AF-C/buffer on par with the 7D to compete.
> And even then it would not compete with double the price.


Plus, around here a 7D2 goes for $2250 and an R for $3000. The 7D2 has vastly better robustness, faster frame rate, and better AF system. No way is Canon going to seriously undercut the R with a higher level camera


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## scipion (Apr 19, 2019)

I fail to understand Canon currently... the mirrorless craze is really boring for me (nothing against mirrorless, but if I went Canon and not Sony it is because I am more interested in DSLR, like many others I suppose...). We need a 7D MkIII and a high level APSC.

time to switch to Nikon? their DSLR are real better than Canon currently. And their policies more clear: you get the best of them in each category. Canon ultra "segmented" and "curbed" cameras are beginning to be boring...


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## Jasonmc89 (Apr 19, 2019)

Seeing how everyone is banging on about Sony again I thought I’d share my thoughts on them. Feel free to have a pop at me but this is just my thoughts on the Sony system.. 

They may have better sensors, speeds, DR and stuff but they BORE me to death.. Sure, in some cases you will capture a marginally better photo but the brand is so boring I’d rather stick to Canon (or Nikon) 

Have a nice day everyone!


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## allanP (Apr 19, 2019)

I find it a pity. The quality of construction, the operating concept of the 7D2, the wheel and joystick were what kept me at Canon.
If there is no follower, then the thing is through. R and RP don't convinces me.
I found the wipe bar of the R uncomfortable (1 month of using) and the new controls of the RP not effective.
Weaker sensors and giving up of the optimal operating concept.
Is it a right way?
No successor to the 7D2 till spring 2020 means, I will go -on the request of Canon- away.
Time to say goodbye to the brand


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## Mr Majestyk (Apr 19, 2019)

Nikon released the 7DIII 3 years ago. Why wait. 7DII was a major disappointment and I highly doubt Canon could even offer something better than the D500 anyway even with 4 years to get it right. I'll believe it when I see it that Canon can have a competitive mirrorless action oriented camera ready by next year let alone this year. This will leave1DXIII as the only camera of interest in the entire line-up.


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## JBSF (Apr 19, 2019)

CanoKnight said:


> Their top brass should sit down and commit Hara Kiri.



Maybe they can invite you to that meeting so you can put yourself out of your misery.


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## reef58 (Apr 19, 2019)

unfocused said:


> You are switching because of a CR1 rumor?



That is the only logical response is it not???


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## Architect1776 (Apr 19, 2019)

Lars Elvstrøm said:


> I think I am changing to Nikon. I was looking so much forward for the 7D III. Too bad.



Good riddance.


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## stevelee (Apr 19, 2019)

I've never used a 7D. But I gather it is a fine choice for some folks, and if you are one of them, you most likely know who you are. That is certainly the impression I got several years back at a Kelby seminar. I happened to be seated near folks with sons who played high school football. Each of them had a 7D or aspired to buy one soon.


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## Adelino (Apr 19, 2019)

I would love to see a merging of 80D and 7Dii along with some improvements. I think it was a matter of time, they were on a collision course in specs.


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## dtaylor (Apr 19, 2019)

7D MkII said:


> Since Sony A7III apears, I've been waiting Canon's respounce. Someting to replace my 7D MkII. Maybe a new body with more focus points, better AF or eye tracking, tilting or variable angle touchscreen, a better sensor, and of course, more speed, with a reasonable price.
> 
> But Canon simply insists on low specification bodies with high prices.
> 
> Maybe is time to change for Sony and forget about Canon.



Most 7D2 owners need weather sealing. Which means if this rumor is true they might jump, but it won't be to Sony.


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## Pape (Apr 19, 2019)

blackcoffee17 said:


> That's why so many full time wildlife photographers are using 7D's because it's consumer only. Who cares about EF-S lenses. The 7D is to be used with 100-400, 500, 600mm big whites. The big megapixel R will need to have 50MP+, at least 10FPS and AF-C/buffer on par with the 7D to compete.
> And even then it would not compete with double the price.




its bit odd peoples who can afford 500 or 600mm big white wants consumer price body


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## dtaylor (Apr 19, 2019)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> With camera sales dropping, and Canon offering a growing line of mirrorless models, they are likely making the tough decision, drop the less profitable models.Although I had three 7D's, I never warmed up to the 7D MK II and went to FF instead. The ability to gather more light was the reason for me.



I shot my 7D for years and loved it, but like you I never jumped to the mk II and went FF instead. To my surprise I do not miss the frame rate, but I do miss the buffer size. Aside from that nothing lost. If I have to crop the IQ is just as good. If I can fill the frame it's far better. (With the caveat that "far better" isn't necessarily clear until large print sizes, or higher ISOs.)

I'm in the strange position of thinking Canon should make a 7D3, but realizing I would probably never buy it.


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## jtf (Apr 19, 2019)

With all the talk about the 7D line being a dead end I've started using my M5 with the 100-400 II in my backyard. Reason being is the R intrigues me and I just want to see how it feels to go mirrorless with birds and such. 

The bad- ergonomics are awful, but that's the issue with the M5, adapter and pretty good sized lens. I'm 6'4" and between the camera size and the weight of the lens I wouldn't try to hold the camera just by the grip. I also have issues with seeing the photos I've taken in the EVF as well as that short blackout. I want to see my subject asap. I actually got a Robin in flight but it was by sheer luck because I'm not sure I ever saw it through the EVF. 

The good- I've tried using the field focus, standard size focus box, small focus box, and when I get it right, I'm really happy with the results. The detail and IQ are really nice. A couple of times the AF couldn't pick up my subject and I had to manually focus first, but then the AF was on target.

Bottom line is I'm OK going mirrorless but the EVF issues of the R would need to be corrected, since they're similar to the M5. The "bar" on the R serves no purpose for me, I want a joystick for focusing. A sports and wildlife R will need to be large enough and sturdy enough to balance with heavier lenses. Other than the M5 every camera I use has a vertical grip too. 

My wife uses an 80D with the 70-300L, she saw me using the M5 on the 100-400, looked at me and said 'that looks ridiculous'.


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## ronaldbyram (Apr 19, 2019)

I have the 60 and 70 and jumpedto the 7D2 for the speed. if there is a combined camera I hope there is the SPEED and required for sports


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## digigal (Apr 19, 2019)

Pape said:


> its bit odd peoples who can afford 500 or 600mm big white wants consumer price body


The crop factor makes these lens appear to be 800 and 960 mm on the 7DMII and when you are limited in how close you can approach wildlife the length of the lens is all you have to make up that distance. Depending on the pixel size of your sensor, there is only so much you can crop the picture to still have enough to print. I photograph to print, not to post on the web, and because of that I can do very little cropping to a photograph from the 7DMII because of the sensor size depending on the size of the print to be made. I have more latitude with my R which has a larger sensor.


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## Valvebounce (Apr 19, 2019)

Hi Folks. 
In my opinion (and it is just my opinion and worth about tuppence) a replacement for the 7DII needs 4 things,
1, Single-point spot AF. For burrowing through the brush for little birds. Missing on 80D. 
2, Deep buffer. At least as many shots as the 7DII and preferably more RAW capability. 
3, Joystick. Still the quickest way to move the AF point around the viewfinder, (select joystick direct in the custom menu) and helpful for ordinary navigation. 
4, Weather resistance. At least as good as the 7DII. 

As for frame rate, I very rarely use 10fps, I learned very quickly that you can bury yourself in almost identical shots, I only use it if I want a particular shot, like an exhaust flame that is not easy to predict and time a shot to capture it so high frame rate, nice but not essential! 
I’m not very familiar with a touch screen for AF selection but I can’t imagine trying to manoeuvre a thumb around under your nose with your eye to the viewfinder? 
I basically went 7D to retain the joystick when the 60D lost it, upgraded to 7DII and hope that a 7DIII might be a next step before going R something when they are up there with a sports spec body. 
If they do merge the 7D and X0D lines I hope they lift the spec of the X0D and not drop the spec of the 7DIII. 

Cheers, Graham.


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## blackcoffee17 (Apr 19, 2019)

Pape said:


> its bit odd peoples who can afford 500 or 600mm big white wants consumer price body



Why do people always think that someone who has a 500mm lens only using 1DX level cameras? You can buy a used Canon 500mm IS in good condition for less than the price of a 5D4. Nothing about the 7D is consumer. It's basically a 5D4 body with APS-C sensor and faster burst rate.
Glenn Bartley who is one of the best bird photographers is using 7D. My friend has a Nikon D5, D500 and a 600mm F4 lens. He is using the "consumer" D500 for 90% of his wildlife photography.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 19, 2019)

You can buy a good used 1DX for less than a 5D MkIV too...

For me it's all about AF performance not cropping capability or sensor size, others might have different priorities. I'd take a used 1DX over a 7D MkII any day. But I am happy to accept that is just my opinion and others are just as valid for different people.


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## Marius Schamschula (Apr 19, 2019)

I've been waiting to replace my 7D with a 7D III, or a suitable R body. I also have a M5. A couple of comments:


The original 7D can't autofocus a 70-200 f4 L IS USM or a 100-400 L IS USM with a 2x III extender, while the M5 does.
The M5 can't handle saving JPEG + RAW at frame rates over once every two or three seconds, while the 7D merrily shoots a fast burst.

Bottom line: if Canon wants to sell a R replacement for the 7D, it better be able to handle a 7D like frame rate and handle AF at sport/wildlife focal lengths. I wouldn't mind a full frame sensor (most of my lenses are full frame anyway), with the ability to use EFS lenses.


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## Hector1970 (Apr 19, 2019)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Folks.
> In my opinion (and it is just my opinion and worth about tuppence) a replacement for the 7DII needs 4 things,
> 1, Single-point spot AF. For burrowing through the brush for little birds. Missing on 80D.
> 2, Deep buffer. At least as many shots as the 7DII and preferably more RAW capability.
> ...


I'd agree with these points. 
I'm not sure if its what you mean but I would like a small focus point that could really pick out a small bird amongst branches.
I don't think I can use touch screen for moving the AF point. I see to instinctively not like touch screen on a camera. I like the joystick.
I'd like the focussing to somehow recognise a bird in flight. That's the bit I find more frustrating. A big bird isn't too bad but its hard to track a small bird in flight.
I've no idea on sales but I'd have thought the 7DII Sold well. I think a 7DIII would do well also.


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## Otara (Apr 19, 2019)

Marius Schamschula said:


> I've been waiting to replace my 7D with a 7D III, or a suitable R body. I also have a M5. A couple of comments:
> 
> 
> The original 7D can't autofocus a 70-200 f4 L IS USM or a 100-400 L IS USM with a 2x III extender, while the M5 does.
> ...


Not sure why it's worth supporting, there would be very little benefit over using a 1.4 anyway, other than maybe for video.


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## jvillain (Apr 19, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> To my surprise I do not miss the frame rate, but I do miss the buffer size. Aside from that nothing lost.



Doesn't that make the RP ideal for you? Unlimited buffer @ 3FPS.


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## dtaylor (Apr 20, 2019)

jvillain said:


> Doesn't that make the RP ideal for you? Unlimited buffer @ 3FPS.



Just because I don't miss 8 fps doesn't mean I want to drop to 3 fps


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## Pape (Apr 20, 2019)

Ah ok seeing problem now ,its all about frame rate and 1dx serie is too expensive.
Canon must think they can offer something better than 7 serie on mirrorless i hope.
doesnt full frames focus better when more focus points ? at least fast moving target is easier keep on viewfinder.


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## koenkooi (Apr 20, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> Just because I don't miss 8 fps doesn't mean I want to drop to 3 fps



I went from the 7D to the RP and only started missing the fps yesterday when trying to catch bees during take-off. OTOH I now only need to delete 5 out of focus shots instead of 8 for the 7D and 10 for the M50


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## Pierce (Apr 20, 2019)

SwissFrank said:


> My M wasn't, I agree, but the R nails focus every time. I couldn't even get my EOS-1Ds MkIII to nail focus 10% of the time with the EF 50/1.2 but I can shoot my 5yo dancing around with the RF50/1.2 wide open and get eyelash-counting sharpness on 8 out of 10 shots. I haven't really shot the R with the 600/4 but I can't imagine why it wouldn't be the same story.


I logged in to reply to this.

I agree. The R does nail focus and can tear through a lot of shots without buffering. I couldn't nail focus no matter the settings in the 7d mk ii. Looked sharp when the mirror flapped on a 70-200 f4 but was out of focus constantly. Sigma 50 f1.4 art - no sharp focus ever. The 200d/100d could nail focus more consistently... All be it slow


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## AlanF (Apr 20, 2019)

Pierce said:


> I logged in to reply to this.
> 
> I agree. The R does nail focus and can tear through a lot of shots without buffering. I couldn't nail focus no matter the settings in the 7d mk ii. Looked sharp when the mirror flapped on a 70-200 f4 but was out of focus constantly. Sigma 50 f1.4 art - no sharp focus ever. The 200d/100d could nail focus more consistently... All be it slow


I am anal compulsive when it comes to AF, and constantly comparing shots to find which ones give the best resolution of detail of bird plumage. I find the 5DIV and 5DSR to be very consistent. My previous 7DII, although not quite as good as the more modern bodies, was still pretty good. (I also do use mirrorless and don 't find them substantially better with my lenses.) Did you AFMA your 70-200 f/4? A constant out of focus seems likely to be an AFMA problem. But, you could have had a rogue 7DII.


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## Pierce (Apr 20, 2019)

See the 70-200 is tack sharp.. sometimes. No amount of afma would sort the 50mm (the canon 1.4 is horrible but the 1.8 stepper and STM variationsare good). Perfect on 200d and 5d (the original) no adjustments. The consistency was not there. But again I did get sharp photos just not all the time


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## AlanF (Apr 20, 2019)

Pierce said:


> See the 70-200 is tack sharp.. sometimes. No amount of afma would sort the 50mm (the canon 1.4 is horrible but the 1.8 stepper and STM variationsare good). Perfect on 200d and 5d (the original) no adjustments. The consistency was not there. But again I did get sharp photos just not all the time


I am confused as your phrasing "_Looked sharp when the mirror flapped on a 70-200 f4 but was out of focus constantly._" meant to me that the image looked sharp through the viewfinder but was out of focus when you processed it. Also you are not clear which lens you are referring to. Is it the 70-200mm on the 200D and 5D or the 50mm that is perfect?


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## Pierce (Apr 20, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I am confused as your phrasing "_Looked sharp when the mirror flapped on a 70-200 f4 but was out of focus constantly._" meant to me that the image looked sharp through the viewfinder but was out of focus when you processed it. Also you are not clear which lens you are referring to. Is it the 70-200mm on the 200D and 5D or the 50mm that is perfect?


If the subject is standing still (not moving back or forward) the 7d mk ii is fine on the 70-200 f4.

Standing still on the sigma 50 f1.4 on 7d mk ii never sharp.

200d / 100d never had focus issues.


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## AlanF (Apr 20, 2019)

Pierce said:


> If the subject is standing still (not moving back or forward) the 7d mk ii is fine on the 70-200 f4.
> 
> Standing still on the sigma 50 f1.4 on 7d mk ii never sharp.
> 
> 200d / 100d never had focus issues.


Thanks for the clarification. Do you use AI Servo?


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## Andreasb (Apr 20, 2019)

Maybe I can explain this to you:

After I have paid over $20 k for a 600mm IS II, 400mm DO II and a 100-400, I cant afford to buy 2 x 1DX MKII. I need to have two bodies, because one of them is a backup if one failed. So there went another $4k on bodies plus of course grips and batteries so say 5k in all.

Maybe in the best of scenarios I would have wanted one of them to be a 1DX MKII but, I definitely wanted one of them to be a crop body. When you are shooting 1000-3000+ images a day and you crop most of them anyway a FF is quite pointless, you can seemingly never have to much reach.




Pape said:


> its bit odd peoples who can afford 500 or 600mm big white wants consumer price body


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## haggie (Apr 20, 2019)

Pape said:


> its bit odd peoples who can afford 500 or 600mm big white wants consumer price body



That is a bit of a silly (perhaps ignorant) remark.
Together with a friend we too are at the verge of buying the EF 500 II together. We both use 7D Mk II's - once the best cropped camera for action photography (and that is something else than your words of _'consumer price body' _implies).
He is mainly a birder, hiking for days with long lens and doing that many days a year: that is 'required' to shoot birds at the oppourtunities that THEY give.
I mainly shoot aircraft at airshows and around military airfields. This is a limited number of days a year but each of these offer many photo opportunities, so these few days a year are quite enough for me. This all means that we can share the same lens easily without being a nuisance to the other.

When you think of it, the fact that the 7D Mk II is an action camera means that you will see relatively many long lenses among its owners. Far more than among owners of the 80D, which are more 'generalist' users - i.e. without the need for such specialist (and therefore expensive) lenses.

That being said, it still is remarkable that Canon wants to end the 7D-series. It destroys a name that has earned its reputation among acion photographers.
Canon has invested heavily to know its clients and their behaviour. This CR1 rumor could well fit in the Canon's efforts to bring the news about the end of the 7D-series gradually. The first hint was the rumor of over a year ago that the development of a(n unnamed higher-end) DSLR was scrapped. The second hint came with the rumor that the successor to the 80D and the 7D MK II might be combined. And now the rumor gets even more specific: outed by itself, specifically expressing the result of earlier decisions. The fact that it is ranked CR1 then would not mean much.

The actual reason may be as already suggested in the rumor. Canon wants the higher profit-per-unit *Full Frame *Cameras pushed and sees an opportunitiy to convince at least part of its 7D-user base to convert from Canon APS-C to Canon FF (mirrorless or DSLR). The 7D is a big and advanced camera with relatively low number of units sold per year. A "big and advanced" Full Frame camera will also sell relatively low numbers a year, but with higher yield. If so, they will have good reason to do so.
They might simply need all design/engineering and production resources for their new way ahead: with the R-series in the center.


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## Don Haines (Apr 20, 2019)

Pape said:


> Ah ok seeing problem now ,its all about frame rate and 1dx serie is too expensive.
> Canon must think they can offer something better than 7 serie on mirrorless i hope.
> doesnt full frames focus better when more focus points ? at least fast moving target is easier keep on viewfinder.


Actually, the 7D2 has a better spread of AF points than the 1DX2!


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## Don Haines (Apr 20, 2019)

With the 7D2, the 80D, and the 77D, there is also the possibility that the 77D will stay and that the replacement for the 7D2 and 80D will be what the 7D3 would have been....


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## transpo1 (Apr 20, 2019)

Incredible shot and amazing moment you captured there!


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## BillB (Apr 20, 2019)

haggie said:


> That is a bit of a silly (perhaps ignorant) remark.
> Together with a friend we too are at the verge of buying the EF 500 II together. We both use 7D Mk II's - once the best cropped camera for action photography (and that is something else than your words of _'consumer price body' _implies).
> He is mainly a birder, hiking for days with long lens and doing that many days a year: that is 'required' to shoot birds at the oppourtunities that THEY give.
> I mainly shoot aircraft at airshows and around military airfields. This is a limited number of days a year but each of these offer many photo opportunities, so these few days a year are quite enough for me. This all means that we can share the same lens easily without being a nuisance to the other.
> ...



The 7DII replacement might be an aps-c mirrorless with a new sensor (32.5mp?), beefed up weather resistance, and the first iteration of the systems that will be used in the 5D and 1D level mirrorless cameras.


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## digigal (Apr 20, 2019)

Pape said:


> Ah ok seeing problem now ,its all about frame rate and 1dx serie is too expensive.
> Canon must think they can offer something better than 7 serie on mirrorless i hope.
> doesnt full frames focus better when more focus points ? at least fast moving target is easier keep on viewfinder.


Nope--wrong again. I'm just a an ancient tiny LOL and although I can go around the world photographing I'm limited by what I can lift and hold to shoot and what I can carry up a mountain in the snow or over the rocks etc. I'll pay almost any amount of money for lighter, better, greater reach and performance than 7DMII + 100-400 II which is the best compromise I've found so far. I was out practicing shooting birds with the R + 100-400 yesterday so I'm always hoping there'll be something lighter coming (and, no, I don't think the R is a substitute for the 7DMII !)


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## canonnews (Apr 20, 2019)

haggie said:


> That is a bit of a silly (perhaps ignorant) remark.
> Together with a friend we too are at the verge of buying the EF 500 II together. We both use 7D Mk II's - once the best cropped camera for action photography (and that is something else than your words of _'consumer price body' _implies).
> He is mainly a birder, hiking for days with long lens and doing that many days a year: that is 'required' to shoot birds at the oppourtunities that THEY give.
> I mainly shoot aircraft at airshows and around military airfields. This is a limited number of days a year but each of these offer many photo opportunities, so these few days a year are quite enough for me. This all means that we can share the same lens easily without being a nuisance to the other.
> ...



I wouldn't draw conclusions quite yet.

While Canon always wants more profit % per unit, they also make cameras to fit into just about every single market position slot possible, not all of them are as highly profitable as full frame.

A 7D Mark III does command a lot of engineering talent, but that engineering talent is still working on 1 series cameras as well. Nothing is done in a vacuum.

For alot of reasons merging the xxD and 7D series cameras back together again, is hard work, and will leave some group of customers unhappy, there is no easy answer to this.

As I suggested in our article, I'm not sure I see Canon doing this without first trying the 77D and T7i approach which is to create the same camera guts in the 90D and 7D Mark III and vary the cameras by ergonomics and viewfinder experience. So basically the 90D becomes a lighter, cheaper version of the 7D Mark III and essentially they both coexist together.

That to me seems to be the more logical solution.


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## anden (Apr 20, 2019)

I am into amateur sports and would not accept less than 10 fps. Using mostly Sigma 50-100 and 50-150, and the 10-22 and 17-55. 1D plus a few matching lenses is way too expensive for my purposes.

I am hoping that whatever supersedes the 7DII, won't mean that I have to buy a completely new camera system to use it. Well, unless there are some new and fantastic benefits with it.


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## degos (Apr 20, 2019)

s66 said:


> E.g. there's talk of a 70 MP FF sensor: if they make it so it could also be used in crop mode (only using the pixels on the inside, letting the other sit by idle: you would instantly regain the added reach of an crop sensor without losing the ability to also go wide on the same body and lens)



No, that wouldn't give any more 'reach' than just taking the photo in FF mode and cropping to the centre section out in Photoshop etc.

Reach on APS-C was a function of pixel density, not sensor size. The manufacturers were willing to push the density higher with the small sensors since there was less proportional wastage on a single wafer if one array was defective than with FF ( what was the number, six FF arrays on one wafer versus 14 crop? )

You can't change pixel density on the fly.


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## takesome1 (Apr 21, 2019)

degos said:


> No, that wouldn't give any more 'reach' than just taking the photo in FF mode and cropping to the centre section out in Photoshop etc.
> 
> Reach on APS-C was a function of pixel density, not sensor size. The manufacturers were willing to push the density higher with the small sensors since there was less proportional wastage on a single wafer if one array was defective than with FF ( what was the number, six FF arrays on one wafer versus 14 crop? )
> 
> You can't change pixel density on the fly.



The crop factor and reach, the most miss represented thing about camera bodies in the last decade. Sold as trick photography using the narrower FOV on the smaller sensor. Magically it could turn your 100mm lens to a 140mm. 

The lengthy heated debates over the higher pixel density of the crop cameras have all but disappeared.

You are incorrect on one thing you said. You can change pixel density on the fly. Just carry a second body.


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## Pape (Apr 21, 2019)

i hope you can use full frame on viewfinder with future crop mode ,crop could be drawed to view with red line.


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## Aussie shooter (Apr 21, 2019)

The other problem with having a fast action, tough as nails FF camera that can have a crop applied in camera to enable high frame reate shooting is that it will be a tough as nails FF camera and will therefore cost what any other tough as nails FF would cost. Ie. A crap load more than a 7 series. Some of us cannot afford to drop 10k on a camera body but we could see our way clear to spend 3-3.5k. I absolutely think that a mirrorless 1 series should have the ability to generate a crop in camera but it will never be a substitute for a 7d


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## canonmike (Apr 21, 2019)

There seems to be a segment in the Canon community that will be much disappointed with no 7D III offering. Personally, I'll be surprised to see any new 7D offerings. I make this observation, given the current push by Canon and other mfgs., to give us more mirrorless offerings, whether it be crop or full frame bodies. It's obvious that Canon has invested a lot of R&D in the new RF lenses and the only way to recoup this tremendous investment is to give us bodies these lenses will work on. I own a gen one 7D body and, even with L glass, have found the photos from same, somewhat soft and lacking, even when using a tripod. Photos from my M50 using an inexpensive EF-M 22mm lens, or even the 15-45mm kit lens are sharper than photos taken with my 7D, using any lens + the compact size of the M series cameras makes them much easier to carry. Instead of upgrading my 7D to a 7DII, I opted for a new 6DII during last fall's Black Fri sales, for a very reasonable cost of only $1100.00, including a free grip. To date, my only real disappointment with my 6DII is the slow frame rate, making it somewhat lacking when doing action or wildlife photography. But, at least the photos are sharp. As to the future, I am waiting for the Pro R body with a faster frame rate, so I can then take full advantage of the great RF lens offerings., lenses that even the likes of Nikon fanboys like Jared Polin, sing their praises. We're waiting, patiently. Bring on that body, Canon.


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## AlanF (Apr 21, 2019)

I personally would like a new high resolution FF body with a slower fps AND a 7DIII (both without AA-filters) as my pair of cameras.


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## Durf (Apr 21, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I personally would like a new high resolution FF body with a slower fps AND a 7DIII (both without AA-filters) as my pair of cameras.



I was SOOOO looking forward to the 7D3 to replace my 80D in 2 or 3 years from now.....hopefully them scrapping the 7D line is just a rumor. If true, I'll wait to see what the 90D looks like unless that is a no go too or the xxD line morphs in to mirrorless. (I have no desire to switch to mirrorless).

The market is changing but I'll spend the rest of my life shooting with an OVF one way or another....


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## privatebydesign (Apr 21, 2019)

Andreasb said:


> Maybe I can explain this to you:
> 
> After I have paid over $20 k for a 600mm IS II, 400mm DO II and a 100-400, I cant afford to buy 2 x 1DX MKII. I need to have two bodies, because one of them is a backup if one failed. So there went another $4k on bodies plus of course grips and batteries so say 5k in all.
> 
> Maybe in the best of scenarios I would have wanted one of them to be a 1DX MKII but, I definitely wanted one of them to be a crop body. When you are shooting 1000-3000+ images a day and you crop most of them anyway a FF is quite pointless, you can seemingly never have to much reach.


How many times have you had 1 series cameras fail? Since 2004 I have had one, and that was because I dropped it. This talk of "_I *need* a backup_" is largely bullish!t.


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## Don Haines (Apr 21, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> How many times have you had 1 series cameras fail? Since 2004 I have had one, and that was because I dropped it. This talk of "_I *need* a backup_" is largely bullish!t.


I have had 3 DSLRs fail.
#1 was because I dropped it 110 feet onto a concrete pad....
#2 was a sticky mirror, but a clean and lube when I got home cured it...
#3 was a motherboard failure, the day AFTER the warranty expired. (they fixed it for free)

I don't carry a second camera because I think I need a backup, I carry it to avoid swapping lenses. One for wide, one for long. Often I have a third that is a P/S that works underwater so I can shoot in the worst of weather


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## ShermN8r (Apr 22, 2019)

If this news holds true, I have purchased my final Canon camera (5D Mark IV)...It was a good ride ever since the AE-1 Program. As far as mirrorless goes, Canon have quite some catching up to do to reach the Fujifilm or Sony level...See ya!


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## privatebydesign (Apr 22, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> I have had 3 DSLRs fail.
> #1 was because I dropped it 110 feet onto a concrete pad....
> #2 was a sticky mirror, but a clean and lube when I got home cured it...
> #3 was a motherboard failure, the day AFTER the warranty expired. (they fixed it for free)
> ...


Were any of them a 1 series?

I also use two bodies at the same time so I can use two lenses without changing, far more realistic a use case than failure IMHO.


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## Don Haines (Apr 22, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Were any of them a 1 series?
> 
> I also use two bodies at the same time so I can use two lenses without changing, far more realistic a use case than failure IMHO.


A Rebel, a 60D, and an Oly....

of all the consumer electronics out there, I would have to rate cameras as the most stable. I Seldom worry about camera failure, particularly when it is so rare, I have at least one other camera with me (and a phone), and if it did happen, it means that all I have lost is the convenience of not swapping lenses.

And besides, if disaster struck, most of the time you can get a new camera fast!


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## privatebydesign (Apr 22, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> A Rebel, a 60D, and an Oly....
> 
> of all the consumer electronics out there, I would have to rate cameras as the most stable. I Seldom worry about camera failure, particularly when it is so rare, I have at least one other camera with me (and a phone), and if it did happen, it means that all I have lost is the convenience of not swapping lenses.
> 
> And besides, if disaster struck, most of the time you can get a new camera fast!


Couldn't agree more. Over 15 years ago I stopped carrying 'a spare' body with me when I went traveling. I reasoned in the very unlikely event I had a failure I could get another body FedExed to me practically anywhere in a couple of days.


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## digigal (Apr 22, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Couldn't agree more. Over 15 years ago I stopped carrying 'a spare' body with me when I went traveling. I reasoned in the very unlikely event I had a failure I could get another body FedExed to me practically anywhere in a couple of days.


You're not in the Arctic or Antarctica on a boat or in western Mongolia or the Gobi desert a lot, are you?


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## Andreasb (Apr 22, 2019)

I dropped the first one and did not have a backup. so I got two so I would have a backup and so I can have one on the 600 and one on the 400 DO II or the 100-400 II all ready to go.

I have been doing this for a long time now, and it is of course up to me how I spend my money, as for your comment it speaks for yourself.




privatebydesign said:


> How many times have you had 1 series cameras fail? Since 2004 I have had one, and that was because I dropped it. This talk of "_I *need* a backup_" is largely bullish!t.


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## Aussie shooter (Apr 22, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Couldn't agree more. Over 15 years ago I stopped carrying 'a spare' body with me when I went traveling. I reasoned in the very unlikely event I had a failure I could get another body FedExed to me practically anywhere in a couple of days.



My main trips are to places like the Antarctic, Arctic and Galapagos. Even considering Kamchacta peninsula as my next big trip. So a spare body(even if it is just a rebel) is essential for peace of mind if nothing else


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## Lee Jay (Apr 22, 2019)

EduPortas said:


> I'm not buying it.
> 
> 1) Canon has invested millions of dollars in the technology _behind_ the 7D series. It' very
> unlike a Japanese company to go bonkers and leave all that technology without current representation.
> ...



This.

I just went and tested the R and RP viewfinders and they're actually awful. And I just finished switching from the 5D to the 7D II and am much happier overall with the range of lenses available for APSC than for full frame.

I also have an 80D and there's just no comparison ergonomically or in speed of use. If an 80D upgrade is going to serve the purpose of a 7DII upgrade as well, it's going to have to be a way bigger step than between any xxD camera since the 10D to 20D jump, which was substantial.

And if a mirrorless is going to be the replacement then EVFS are going to have to get orders of magnitude better. The A7iii I I looked at was slightly less awful than the R series but the EM5 mark II was the only one I saw I could tolerate for slow moving subjects (like walking people). For fast moving subjects, none were close to usable. Further, any full frame would have to take EFS lenses and have the pixel density of the 80D or higher, so over 64MP, and have a crop mode.


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## Don Haines (Apr 22, 2019)

digigal said:


> You're not in the Arctic or Antarctica on a boat or in western Mongolia or the Gobi desert a lot, are you?


 I did a lot of field trials on Navy Frigates and in the high Arctic.  great times!

For security reasons, not a lot of photography on the frigates.....

The high Arctic is gorgeous, even in winter..... and yes, my camera survived -60C!

My standard kit is a crop camera with a long zoom, a FF camera with a normal zoom, and a wide zoom in reserve. I have the two bodies for the versatility, not the fear of failure. Often I also have an Oly TG5 tucked into a pocket for use in rain, or underwater.


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## digigal (Apr 22, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> I did a lot of field trials on Navy Frigates and in the high Arctic.  great times!
> 
> For security reasons, not a lot of photography on the frigates.....
> 
> ...


That's the kit I'm settling on: 7DMII with 100-400 II (occas with 1.4 TC in really bright light for extra reach) and the R with my 24-104 II or 70-200 II. I also carry a M3 converted to IR that I use with the 3 Canon lenses above. It's a pretty compact kit to carry around the world.


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## Valvebounce (Apr 22, 2019)

Hi Folks. 
I _have _had a body fail, nearly new 40D with shutter failure (well documented else where on CR) on what I considered to be a once in a lifetime trip, I could not afford to replace it instantly and it would have screwed the rest of the holiday so I’m glad I squeezed in my 300D in to my bag just in case. 
I do carry two cameras almost all the time, I’m not really afraid another will fail, I consider the failure a random event and I know that it is more likely I will break one accidentally than have another fail. I have different lenses on each body but it gives me a backup too! 

Cheers, Graham.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 22, 2019)

digigal said:


> You're not in the Arctic or Antarctica on a boat or in western Mongolia or the Gobi desert a lot, are you?


No not the Arctic or Antarctic (though I have spent many years on boats) but if I was I wouldn't rely on a single point of mission failure for anything. But my point was_ most_ peoples perceived *need* for a 'backup' is *largely* bullish!t, not every specific use case. That was why I wrote "*largely*".


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## privatebydesign (Apr 22, 2019)

digigal said:


> That's the kit I'm settling on: 7DMII with 100-400 II (occas with 1.4 TC in really bright light for extra reach) and the R with my 24-104 II or 70-200 II. I also carry a M3 converted to IR that I use with the 3 Canon lenses above. It's a pretty compact kit to carry around the world.


My last round the world kit was a 1DX MkII, a 35 f2 IS and a 100 f2.8 IS macro, along with a portable battery powered printer. My 15 years ago round the world kit was 2 x 1VHS's, a 1DS of some description, three f2.8 zooms, 15, 50, and 300 f2.8 primes, a couple of 550EX flashes etc etc.

My next one might be different again completely.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 22, 2019)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Folks.
> I _have _had a body fail, nearly new 40D with shutter failure (well documented else where on CR) on what I considered to be a once in a lifetime trip, I could not afford to replace it instantly and it would have screwed the rest of the holiday so I’m glad I squeezed in my 300D in to my bag just in case.
> I do carry two cameras almost all the time, I’m not really afraid another will fail, I consider the failure a random event and I know that it is more likely I will break one accidentally than have another fail. I have different lenses on each body but it gives me a backup too!
> 
> Cheers, Graham.


Again, I was asking specifically how many times a 1 series body had failed on the poster. Obviously they do fail, but as Don points out even more modest models fail remarkable infrequently, my point was most people here (forum and gear junkies) 'justify' a second body to themselves because of this strange 'back up' meme that in reality isn't generally justified. Yes there are trips any of us might make once, or maybe many times, in a lifetime where a spare or taking our older body makes sense, but that isn't particularly common. 

How can anybody argue with that simple fact?


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## Don Haines (Apr 22, 2019)

digigal said:


> That's the kit I'm settling on: 7DMII with 100-400 II (occas with 1.4 TC in really bright light for extra reach) and the R with my 24-104 II or 70-200 II. I also carry a M3 converted to IR that I use with the 3 Canon lenses above. It's a pretty compact kit to carry around the world.


My canoeing kit is a large pelican case with a 7D2/Tamron150-600, and a 6D2/24-70F4. That lets me quickly grab a camera for either wide or long use. The 24-70F4 also has a macro mode.... not a real Macro, but often good enough...


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## stevelee (Apr 22, 2019)

I bought my G7X II just before a trip. I decided to take my S120 along as a sort of backup. My concern was not such much fear of failure, but that I might prefer the S120 in some situations. It would fit in my shirt pocket, and the G7X II was just a little too large. So I had the option of taking one or the other out with me sightseeing on any given day. I would up not using the S120 at all. The G7X II fit my in jacket and pants pockets, so that worked just fine.

The S120 will zoom into a 120mm equivalent, vs. 100mm on the G7X II. But that was not part of my reasoning for carrying it along. I had already figured, as I recall, that with the extra resolution, I could crop from the 100mm frame and still have more pixels than the S120's 120mm shot. And my experience has continued to confirm that for travel photos, I rarely wished for longer than the lens would do, and certainly less often than I wished for wider than the 24mm equivalent of both cameras. 

That's my experience with carrying along an extra camera as a backup. I realize that space/weight considerations are much less than if talking about FF DSLRs.


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## Shutterbug (Apr 22, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Again, I was asking specifically how many times a 1 series body had failed on the poster. Obviously they do fail, but as Don points out even more modest models fail remarkable infrequently, my point was most people here (forum and gear junkies) 'justify' a second body to themselves because of this strange 'back up' meme that in reality isn't generally justified. Yes there are trips any of us might make once, or maybe many times, in a lifetime where a spare or taking our older body makes sense, but that isn't particularly common.
> 
> How can anybody argue with that simple fact?


You wouldn't cover a wedding or an assignment with one camera body? You couldn't use that excuse that these bodies hardly fail if something were to happen during their "hopefully" once in a lifetime moment. Having the same kind of backup body is helpful and most preferred in many ways but the 7d series makes a very nice backup body to the 1dx series , shaving some weight off the kit.


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## Kit. (Apr 22, 2019)

Shutterbug said:


> You wouldn't cover a wedding or an assignment with one camera body? You couldn't use that excuse that these bodies hardly fail if something were to happen during their "hopefully" once in a lifetime moment.


I would cover a "hopefully once in a lifetime moment" with more than one photographer. You know, photographers can fail too.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 23, 2019)

Shutterbug said:


> You wouldn't cover a wedding or an assignment with one camera body? You couldn't use that excuse that these bodies hardly fail if something were to happen during their "hopefully" once in a lifetime moment. Having the same kind of backup body is helpful and most preferred in many ways but the 7d series makes a very nice backup body to the 1dx series , shaving some weight off the kit.


I cover weddings with two 1DX MkII's. Principally, as Don and I have already said, to negate the need for lens changes. There are not many pro wedding shooters here, so I stand by my comment which had a very narrow definition.

I have covered hundreds of assignments with one camera body, including my own wedding.


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## Aussie shooter (Apr 23, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> No not the Arctic or Antarctic (though I have spent many years on boats) but if I was I wouldn't rely on a single point of mission failure for anything. But my point was_ most_ peoples perceived *need* for a 'backup' is *largely* bullish!t, not every specific use case. That was why I wrote "*largely*".


There is one other reason i like to have a second(specifically a cheaper or older body that i have upgraded from)camera. And that is because i am willing to risk it in situations I don't like taking my more expensive body that i really can't afford to lose. Kayaking in iffy conditions or on faster water. When wading in waterways that don't provide great footing. On small moving boats with lots of spray etc. And obviously as you have stated innorder to have two bodies with different lenses. But yes. You are correct in saying that largely people don't really need a second body. I suppose that is very similar to the argument that we don't really need a second card slot either. For me it is the peace of mind that matters in having redundancy. Not so much that i think i will ever need it.


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## Jasonmc89 (Apr 23, 2019)

I think the introduction of the odd ball that was the 77D has something to do with this. The 80D specs are just too close to the 7D series cameras now. To me the 77D’s specs seem like a good middle point between the XXXD cameras and the 7D line.


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## Valvebounce (Apr 23, 2019)

Hi PBD.
As I said, I carry two bodies for two lenses, one body is a 1DsIII.
I didn’t think I was arguing against your point, I thought it was more reinforcing your point as I also stated that I’m more likely to accidentally break a body (and that is more likely the pink squidgy one) than have one fail and that takes in to account that I’m very protective of my gear  and already having a lesser body fail!


Cheers, Graham.

Seems we got a long way off topic! 



privatebydesign said:


> Again, I was asking specifically how many times a 1 series body had failed on the poster. Obviously they do fail, but as Don points out even more modest models fail remarkable infrequently, my point was most people here (forum and gear junkies) 'justify' a second body to themselves because of this strange 'back up' meme that in reality isn't generally justified. Yes there are trips any of us might make once, or maybe many times, in a lifetime where a spare or taking our older body makes sense, but that isn't particularly common.
> 
> How can anybody argue with that simple fact?


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## CanonOregon (Apr 23, 2019)

Adrianf said:


> That could be bad news for an awful lot of amateur wildlife shooters out there who have been putting up with the horrid sensor in the 7D2 in the hope of something better. I'm not yet convinced that mirrorless cameras can handle the focusing required using long lenses and tiny subjects. I know my M50 isn't up to it.


I haven't found the sensor that bad but I do worry about BIF and sports without an optical view through the lens.


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## Shutterbug (Apr 23, 2019)

Kit. said:


> I would cover a "hopefully once in a lifetime moment" with more than one photographer. You know, photographers can fail too.


Tell that to all the media outlets. Have them send out two photographers for each assignment when they can barely pay one. Then come back and explain to them, in the best circumstance, why you're sending in cellphone pics because your one and only body failed.


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## Kit. (Apr 23, 2019)

Shutterbug said:


> Tell that to all the media outlets. Have them send out two photographers for each assignment when they can barely pay one. Then come back and explain to them, in the best circumstance, why you're sending in cellphone pics because your one and only body failed.


Why should I care? If I don't get the news from one outlet (because their photographer broke a camera or a leg or whatever), I will get it from another.


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## takesome1 (Apr 24, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I have covered hundreds of assignments with one camera body, including my own wedding.



Please tell us that you had someone shooting for you. 
If not you started the marriage on the right foot.


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## neonlight (Apr 24, 2019)

takesome1 said:


> The crop factor and reach, the most miss represented thing about camera bodies in the last decade. Sold as trick photography using the narrower FOV on the smaller sensor. Magically it could turn your 100mm lens to a 140mm.
> 
> The lengthy heated debates over the higher pixel density of the crop cameras have all but disappeared.
> 
> You are incorrect on one thing you said. You can change pixel density on the fly. Just carry a second body.


 The crop factor and reach, the most misrepresented thing about camera bodies in the last decade- 
Yes, there are still some pros out there who believe that the lens is longer when stuck onto an APSC body. Sad.

The lengthy heated debates over the higher pixel density of the crop cameras have all but disappeared-
This was a potential argument in favour of the crop factor, since if you had greater resolution on the sensor, that would give an effective increase in resolution. The reason it has faded is that the factor was not 1.6 anyway, but with higher MP FF bodies, is now no longer valid.


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## Aussie shooter (Apr 24, 2019)

neonlight said:


> The crop factor and reach, the most misrepresented thing about camera bodies in the last decade-
> Yes, there are still some pros out there who believe that the lens is longer when stuck onto an APSC body. Sad.
> 
> The lengthy heated debates over the higher pixel density of the crop cameras have all but disappeared-
> This was a potential argument in favour of the crop factor, since if you had greater resolution on the sensor, that would give an effective increase in resolution. The reason it has faded is that the factor was not 1.6 anyway, but with higher MP FF bodies, is now no longer valid.


It is if they produce a 32mp apsc sensor but not an equivalent pixel density FF sensor.


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## neonlight (Apr 24, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> It is if they produce a 32mp apsc sensor but not an equivalent pixel density FF sensor.


True, but I worry about noise if the pixels are small. What I wanted in a 7D3 is sharper images (no AA, or at least less strong, filter) and (even) better high ISO, and more importantly, more f/8 AF points. The build quality and features of the 7D2 are great, I would not like to see these disappear into a 90D-look-alike. A tilty-flippy on the other hand is useful on occasions, lugging around an angle finder just adds weight most of the time, and is not convenient for over the head shots.

I can't see Canon actually throwing away the 7D3 upgrade to support their 7D2 users, and it is not clear what a 90D would do better than an 80D unless it incorporated the 7D3 features, which might be one option, though not liked much I suspect by all 7D2 users. An R body instead of 7D3 makes some sort of sense, but whether the EVF will be as good as OVF for 10FPS or more remains to be seen. Now if they came out with an inorganic LED display instead of OLED, I could believe it would be fast enough for the most demanding FPS users.


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## Don Haines (Apr 24, 2019)

neonlight said:


> True, but I worry about noise if the pixels are small. What I wanted in a 7D3 is sharper images (no AA, or at least less strong, filter) and (even) better high ISO, and more importantly, more f/8 AF points. The build quality and features of the 7D2 are great, I would not like to see these disappear into a 90D-look-alike. A tilty-flippy on the other hand is useful on occasions, lugging around an angle finder just adds weight most of the time, and is not convenient for over the head shots.
> 
> I can't see Canon actually throwing away the 7D3 upgrade to support their 7D2 users, and it is not clear what a 90D would do better than an 80D unless it incorporated the 7D3 features, which might be one option, though not liked much I suspect by all 7D2 users. An R body instead of 7D3 makes some sort of sense, but whether the EVF will be as good as OVF for 10FPS or more remains to be seen. Now if they came out with an inorganic LED display instead of OLED, I could believe it would be fast enough for the most demanding FPS users.


I can see an R version of the 7D3, but this would have to be about the same size body as a 7D3, with a larger battery than the R and at least dual ( or quad) Digic8 to handle the increased processing load. The problem is, once you have gone that far in your design, why not go a tiny bit further and make it FF?

Time will tell.


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## koenkooi (Apr 24, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> I can see an R version of the 7D3, but this would have to be about the same size body as a 7D3, with a larger battery than the R and at least dual ( or quad) Digic8 to handle the increased processing load. The problem is, once you have gone that far in your design, why not go a tiny bit further and make it FF?



With 'larger battery', do you mean 'updated LP-E6N, backwards compatible' or 'huge like LP-E4N'?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Apr 24, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> I can see an R version of the 7D3, but this would have to be about the same size body as a 7D3, with a larger battery than the R and at least dual ( or quad) Digic8 to handle the increased processing load. The problem is, once you have gone that far in your design, why not go a tiny bit further and make it FF?
> 
> Time will tell.


There exists a larger battery, as used in the 1 series cameras, I don't know if they could fit it into a 7D MK II sized body but maybe. Mirrorless bodies get thinner, so you have to compact everything into a smaller volume, and then heat dissapation rears its ugly head. If you use more power in a smaller space, it really gets nasty. And then, there is 4K high frame rate video, which uses even more power. They have some difficult issues to deal with.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 24, 2019)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> There exists a larger battery, as used in the 1 series cameras, I don't know if they could fit it into a 7D MK II sized body but maybe. Mirrorless bodies get thinner, so you have to compact everything into a smaller volume, and then heat dissapation rears its ugly head. If you use more power in a smaller space, it really gets nasty. And then, there is 4K high frame rate video, which uses even more power. They have some difficult issues to deal with.


I don't see them moving to anything larger than the LP-E6 type battery for a MILC short of a 1-series MILC (if/when that happens). They went the other way for the RP.


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## Aussie shooter (Apr 25, 2019)

neonlight said:


> True, but I worry about noise if the pixels are small. What I wanted in a 7D3 is sharper images (no AA, or at least less strong, filter) and (even) better high ISO, and more importantly, more f/8 AF points. The build quality and features of the 7D2 are great, I would not like to see these disappear into a 90D-look-alike. A tilty-flippy on the other hand is useful on occasions, lugging around an angle finder just adds weight most of the time, and is not convenient for over the head shots.
> 
> I can't see Canon actually throwing away the 7D3 upgrade to support their 7D2 users, and it is not clear what a 90D would do better than an 80D unless it incorporated the 7D3 features, which might be one option, though not liked much I suspect by all 7D2 users. An R body instead of 7D3 makes some sort of sense, but whether the EVF will be as good as OVF for 10FPS or more remains to be seen. Now if they came out with an inorganic LED display instead of OLED, I could believe it would be fast enough for the most demanding FPS users.


Totally agree. I would most likely buy a 7d3 to upgrade my mk2 but i don't feel the ned to go to 30plus mp. No aa filter and a slight bump in MP would be fine. It is the little things i want. Spot metering linked to af point, f8 af across the board better focusing algorithms etc. They are what would make the difference. Not Mp.


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## Don Haines (Apr 25, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> With 'larger battery', do you mean 'updated LP-E6N, backwards compatible' or 'huge like LP-E4N'?


My suspicion is it would be yet another camera using the LP-E6N. One could make a larger battery, but there is an insane amount of spare LP-E6 (and N) batteries out there. I can’t see it being a smaller battery like with the RP


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## haggie (Apr 27, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> Totally agree. I would most likely buy a 7d3 to upgrade my mk2 but i don't feel the ned to go to 30plus mp. No aa filter and a slight bump in MP would be fine. It is the little things i want. Spot metering linked to af point, f8 af across the board better focusing algorithms etc. They are what would make the difference. Not Mp.



I agree with all of the above.

But come on, Canon: a noticable increase in Dynamic Range would also be welcome. 
This is not asking for the impossible: It should be doable for the company that boasts so many patents. And also considering the age of the 7D MkII and the improvements that other manufacturers have realised since then.

However, I am more and more afraid that Canon might just not be interested in upgrading the 7D MkII any more.

If Canon wants to get a Full Frame Mirrorless action Camera (1DX) out within a few years, then a mirrorless successor for the 7D Mk II would be a perfect area of experimentation for suh an action camera. 
The user base of the 7D MkII , with their on-average higher skill level, could give Canon lots of invaluable feedback on the technology its features and interface. 
For sure, the user base of the 7D Mk II will probably be more forgiving for smaller and larger errors in such a new Canon 'mirrorless action camera' than the user base of the full-frame 1DX user base will be. Canon will not want to experiment with the latter (often professional) users.


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## Aussie shooter (Apr 27, 2019)

haggie said:


> I agree with all of the above.
> 
> But come on, Canon: a noticable increase in Dynamic Range would also be welcome.
> This is not asking for the impossible: It should be doable for the company that boasts so many patents. And also considering the age of the 7D MkII and the improvements that other manufacturers have realised since then.
> ...


I think an increase in DR is a given. Hell. They would get that if they simply stuck the 80d sensor in. But to be honest DR has never been an issue on my 7d2. It is pretty rare to shoot at ISO100 on that camera and when I do it is because I have perfect light. A sensor that performs better at ISO 800-6400 is what is needed.


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## Shutterbug (Apr 29, 2019)

Canon has that new promotion running. I've been eyeing one of those lenses and another piece of gear but will wait it out a few months till we get more, hopefully, good news.


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## haggie (Apr 29, 2019)

Shutterbug said:


> Canon has that new promotion running. I've been eyeing one of those lenses and another piece of gear but will wait it out a few months till we get more, hopefully, good news.



It apparently is about lenses and more, but exactly what "_new promotion_" is that?


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