# Teleconverter crop factor conundrum



## alexturton (Aug 9, 2014)

I'm considering buying a 1.4tc to go on my 400mm 5.6. I've often wondered, which is better in terms of IQ:

Using 400mm (no tc) on 60d?
Using 400mm on 5d3 and cropping?
Using 400mm on 5d3 with a 1.4tc?

These options all yield a similar focal length, but which would give a better overall result?

Cheers
Al


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## rs (Aug 9, 2014)

Scenario 1 and 3 compared here (although using a 1Ds3 which is more like a 5D2 than a 5D3):

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=278&Camera=736&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=278&CameraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=1&APIComp=0


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## Skulker (Aug 9, 2014)

alexturton said:


> I'm considering buying a 1.4tc to go on my 400mm 5.6. I've often wondered, which is better in terms of IQ:
> 
> Using 400mm (no tc) on 60d?
> Using 400mm on 5d3 and cropping?
> ...



I'm fairly certain that you will get someone saying that one the options is definitely undoutabley unquestionably best. Then you will get some one telling you that another one is best. Guess what someone will then say they are both wrong and the only answer is the other option. You might even find they use 30 decimal places to prove that they know what they are talking about.

Try the options. You wont get a clear opinion until you have done that.

My opinion. Any one of them will produce pretty good results!


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## AlanF (Aug 9, 2014)

There is currently an active thread about the advantages or not of "extra reach" with a crop. Many of us who have both a 5DIII and a 7D or 70D (both better than a 60D) prefer to use the 5DIII with a telephoto lens since, apart from well lit objects that are at focal length limited distance away, the larger sensor gives at least as good or better resolution for bird and nature photography, without resorting to a TC.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=22161.0


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## Admin US West (Aug 10, 2014)

alexturton said:


> I'm considering buying a 1.4tc to go on my 400mm 5.6. I've often wondered, which is better in terms of IQ:
> 
> Using 400mm (no tc) on 60d?
> Using 400mm on 5d3 and cropping?
> ...



When using autofocus to capture a quick image, the second two methods might yield better results, for a simple reason, AFMA. You cannot fine tune your 60D autofocus to give you the best autofocus accuracy (liveview will help, and so will manual focus if mounted on a tripod and used with liveview). You can tune your autofocus with a 5D MK III or 70D too, for that matter. On a 70D, live AF will let you add that 1.4X or even 2X TC. Being able to use fast enough shutter speeds to prevent motion blurring is also often a advantage in FF.

Being able to fine tune AF or use live AF on a 70D might very well improve the images merely due to focus accuracy.

You might also wait for a couple of weeks and see what features will be in a new 7D replacement. It may have better live AF that is capable of tracking and even faster response and focus accuracy. There is a possibility that this will be the best for inexpensive use with long lenses, at least until the next generation of FF bodies, and if its done right, the only advantage for FF bodies will be shutter speed, since the large sensor gathers more light, you can use higher ISO's and faster shutter speeds.


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## FEBS (Aug 10, 2014)

CR Backup Admin said:


> alexturton said:
> 
> 
> > I'm considering buying a 1.4tc to go on my 400mm 5.6. I've often wondered, which is better in terms of IQ:
> ...



+1

Without any doubt the 5diii right now. However, this might change in a few weeks with the 7dii.

Choosing between the second and third is really hard. My opinion is that it is purely dependant on the available light at that moment. Less light, then I would take the 400 without extender to get the best results.


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## mikio (Aug 12, 2014)

I believe that option of using 400mm on 5d3 with a 1.4tc would definitely produce a better result since we are comparing here, basically, an optical zoom with a digital one.
I have a similar experience when shooting at first with 7D and EF 300/4 L IS
And going after that to a 5D mark III with [EF 300/4 L IS + 1.4xIII].
The 5D mark III definitely produce a better picture.


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## mackguyver (Aug 12, 2014)

Alex, to answer your question, with patience and good technique, great results can be obtained from any of those, but I think the 5DIII + 1.4x is the best combination. From practical experience of owning this lens and extender for many years (and ignoring the test charts), I can tell you that using the 1.4x with a the 400 f/5.6 with a crop body is okay, but not great. Manual AF works fairly well if you have a super precision matte screen installed, but I generally used LiveView and a cable release so it would focus and then take the photo. I was never very happy with the results because of the higher ISO that needed to be used and it just didn't seem very sharp in comparison to the bare lens. I'm not saying it's no good as I got a handful of pretty good photos with it, but it just seemed like a lot of trouble and I was rarely happy with the results. See first shot below for one that turned out well.

When I began shooting wildlife with the 5DII (also manual AF with this combo) I started using the extender to make up for the crop factor loss. I was very happy with the results (see second sample below) and then when I got the 5DIII and could use AF with it, I was delighted with the results (see third sample below) and it became much more practical to use.

60D + 400 f/5.6L + 1.4x II






5DII + 400 f/5.6L + 1.4x II





5DIII + 400 f/5.6L + 1.4x III


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## Dylan777 (Aug 12, 2014)

I have no experience with 400mm f5.6

I'm shooting with f2.8 IS II version. With 1.4x TC III, the IQ is still about 95-97% compared to bare lens. With 2x TC III, I feel the IQ drops 20ish% compared to bare lens.


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## FEBS (Aug 12, 2014)

Dylan777 said:


> I have no experience with 400mm f5.6
> 
> I'm shooting with f2.8 IS II version. With 1.4x TC III, the IQ is still about 95-97% compared to bare lens. With 2x TC III, I feel the IQ drops 20ish% compared to bare lens.



+1

For me then with the 300 2.8 ii. I have the same feeling, can't measure or confirm the figures, but on the 70-200 and 300 the IQ drops with the 2.0 TC iii. For this reason I would love to see Canon introducing a 1.7 TC as Nikon does.


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## mackguyver (Aug 12, 2014)

Dylan & FEBS, the biggest differences with the 400 f/5.6 are the lack of IS and the slower aperture. Handholding at 560mm without IS is very difficult, and throwing manual focus on top of that makes it extremely difficult, even in good light. With a tripod, it's doable, but even then the best results are from LiveView AF with back-button focus off and using a cable release to focus and trigger the shutter. With the 5DIII (or other f/8 AF-capable body), it's much more useful, though handholding is still tough without IS. 

If the 7DII allows f/8 AF (that's what I'm waiting to hear, personally), it would be pretty significant and make the 400 f/5.6+1.4x much more useful.


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## FEBS (Aug 12, 2014)

I don't have any problem of handholding my 300 + 2x on top (600mm), but I use then mostly NO IS but very high shutterspeeds, so 1/1600 or faster. Did find this works a lot better then the IS on. I've seen from more members on CR here the remark to disable the IS at high shutterspeeds, I tried, and really it works great. So why not for the 400 5.6.


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## mackguyver (Aug 12, 2014)

FEBS said:


> So why not for the 400 5.6.


Because of the manual focus - doing both at once does not lead to good results. With an f/8 AF-capable body it's not too bad and quite similar to the bigger whites with IS off, but only in good light where you can use high shutter speeds.


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## FEBS (Aug 12, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> FEBS said:
> 
> 
> > So why not for the 400 5.6.
> ...



That's all true. I was however leaving the APS-C out of mind as the OP asked 3 different combinations for best IQ. Several mentioned, including myself, that the IQ of the 5D3 would be better. Sorry to misunderstanding you.


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## mackguyver (Aug 12, 2014)

FEBS said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > FEBS said:
> ...


No apology necessary and I love to handhold my 300 f/2.8 IS II with extenders as well - it's my most-used lens. The 5DIII is a great body as well, no matter what lens is attached.


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## FEBS (Aug 12, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> No apology necessary and I love to handhold my 300 f/2.8 IS II with extenders as well - it's my most-used lens. The 5DIII is a great body as well, no matter what lens is attached.



Me too. Love that 300 on the 5d3. However, is even better on the 1dx as I find that body easier to keep that big white steady to shoot handhold. Think the higher height of the body is causing this. 

My love for the big White became that big I ordered a new baby, 200-400 1,4, which I am going to pickup at Thursday.


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## mackguyver (Aug 12, 2014)

FEBS said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > No apology necessary and I love to handhold my 300 f/2.8 IS II with extenders as well - it's my most-used lens. The 5DIII is a great body as well, no matter what lens is attached.
> ...


Yep, love the 1D X even more, too, and congrats on the new addition to the big white arsenal! I'm sure that you'll have a killer kit with the combination.


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