# 600EX-RT + 580EX II Questions



## Jim O (Aug 29, 2013)

I've decided to (hopefully) simplify life some. I've had a 580EX II for some time which I occasionally use on camera, but most often use as a slave to a Qflash Trio, if at all. The Quantum units communicate wirelessly (RF), produce really nice light, recharge immediately, and can fire repeatedly without overheating. But they're a bit more than what I need at this point. So they're going. I've ordered two 600EX-RT's.

I hate to use a big flash as just a master/fill but choices are limited. The ST-E3-RT seems poorly designed with the info and controls at the top, not where my eyes would be, and without focus assist. A 90EX can be a master, but has no RF, it's fairly weak, and has some other undesirable shortcomings. On my wish list is something like my old 220EX as an RF master. It has more than enough power for on camera fill, proper focus assist, and reasonable recycle time.

So my question really is, can I use a mixture of optical and RF slaves with a 600EX-RT master, specifically my existing 580EX II and a 600EX-RT as slaves to a 600EX-RT? Or must I choose optical *or* RF?

I think ultimately I will wait for the ST-E3-RT Mark II (or ST-E4, whatever they'll call it) which hopefully will address some of the shortcomings of the current model. I may or may not sell the 580EX II depending on how it performs with the other two, and get a third 600EX-RT, but not right away.

Thoughts? Suggestions?


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 29, 2013)

With the Canon system and the 600 as master, it's optical or RF control, you can't mix them. With 3rd party triggers you can connect a trigger to the PC port with the 600 in the hotshoe for optical control.


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## Jim O (Aug 29, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> With the Canon system and the 600 as master, it's optical or RF control, you can't mix them. With 3rd party triggers you can connect a trigger to the PC port with the 600 in the hotshoe for optical control.


Thanks for the quick reply. I was afraid of that. It somewhat defeats to purpose of the 600EX-RT. I'm looking to simplify things, not make them more complicated.

It seems to make more sense to sell the 580EX II and get a third 600EX-RT.


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## winglet (Aug 29, 2013)

Well, I used 580EX II's with PW ETTL for a long time and then switched to 600EX-RT's and I couldn't be much happier with the change. 

For what it's worth, I don't find the design of the ST-E3-RT to be a problem whatsoever. The "top" orientation works fine for the amount of changes I make on the fly - even if it was oriented vertically I would still have to stop and look at it. What I do love is the vastly improved interface design and the fact that it's identical to the back of the new flashes. I shoot mostly in manual, but to be able to tweak levels and groups from the camera is a godsend, especially since I use a lot of different modifiers. The time/hassle savings alone have paid for the flashes. 

As far as the lack of focus assist, I haven't really found it to be a problem at all, but of course it would depend on what type of shooting you mostly do, and which body you use as the AF in say, a 5D II (incidentally, my backup body) is notoriously slow. With my 1DX (and I understand, the 5D III) it's not as big an issue. But most of my flash shooting is either to overpower or augment natural light. Wedding shooters with slow AF bodies might have more complaints, but I haven't really noticed many.

I don't know that there's any plans for a successor at this time to the ST-E3-RT, so I would still consider it a good investment if you're only going to use one of the 600's as a trigger. But if the focus is a killer, well...there's your answer!


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 29, 2013)

I have three 600's and an ST-E3-RT. My PW Mini+Flex's aren't getting much use anymore.


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## Jim O (Aug 29, 2013)

winglet said:


> Well, I used 580EX II's with PW ETTL for a long time and then switched to 600EX-RT's and I couldn't be much happier with the change.
> 
> For what it's worth, I don't find the design of the ST-E3-RT to be a problem whatsoever. The "top" orientation works fine for the amount of changes I make on the fly - even if it was oriented vertically I would still have to stop and look at it. What I do love is the vastly improved interface design and the fact that it's identical to the back of the new flashes. I shoot mostly in manual, but to be able to tweak levels and groups from the camera is a godsend, especially since I use a lot of different modifiers. The time/hassle savings alone have paid for the flashes.
> 
> ...



Thanks. I wouldn't use a 600 strictly as a trigger but perhaps for fill as well. It's more versatile for ~$500 than an almost $300 ST-E3-RT which is *only* a trigger.

I don't know that there's any plans for a successor to the ST-E3-RT but one can hope. A smaller flash that can be a master is also always a possibility and that would be ideal. But I guess I have to work with what's available.



neuroanatomist said:


> I have three 600's and an ST-E3-RT. My PW Mini+Flex's aren't getting much use anymore.



How do you feel about the top level controls on the ST-E3-RT?


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 29, 2013)

Jim O said:


> How do you feel about the top level controls on the ST-E3-RT?



Hasn't been an issue for me. If I add a fourth Speedlite (or more), it might become so. However, most of the controls for three groups are available on the camera menu. There was one time (shooting with the camera at the top of a tall tripod, where I needed a stool to access the camera controls), that it was challenging to see the hot shoe mounted display. In that instance, I just attached the ST-E3-RT via an OC-E3 cord.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 29, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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> 
> > Jim O said:
> ...



That was the exact situation to which I was referring.


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## Jim O (Aug 29, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



I do a fair bit of that actually as I have a fairly large eBay business. In fact, I'm gearing up for the holiday season now. I have a lot of product to photograph and list (I am a direct importer from China and elsewhere) and I have more in the pipeline. Well illuminated, properly exposed photos sell items better, almost without a doubt. I outsell other vendors with the same items who sell under my price. I can only assume that good photos are part of it, though my reputation is good there as well. I do some professional work in products as well, and also some events and senior portraits, so having adequate lighting that is easy to use is essential.


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## RLPhoto (Aug 29, 2013)

I don't care for the ST-RT3 because you better off just getting another 600RT.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 29, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> I don't care for the ST-RT3 because you better off just getting another 600RT.



I'm better off getting another 600EX-RT instead of an ST-E3-RT because _*you*_ don't care for it? That makes no sense at all…


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## RLPhoto (Aug 29, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > I don't care for the ST-RT3 because you better off just getting another 600RT.
> ...



Sure it does. because the RT3 is so inadequate and crippled you might as well get the 600RT.


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## Joe M (Aug 29, 2013)

You either use a couple or more 600s with an STE3RT or get another for on the camera. I chose the latter for two reasons. Sometimes I can use the help or at least the reassurance of the AF assist (and bouncing a flash from on camera is sometimes useful) and the other reason was that at the time I bought all of mine, the price difference was minimal (to me). I'd rather just spend a few bucks more and have another flash.


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## Jim O (Aug 30, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > I don't care for the ST-RT3 because you better off just getting another 600RT.
> ...



This was directed at me, methinks. You already have an ST-E3-RT.



Joe M said:


> You either use a couple or more 600s with an STE3RT or get another for on the camera. I chose the latter for two reasons. Sometimes I can use the help or at least the reassurance of the AF assist (and bouncing a flash from on camera is sometimes useful) and the other reason was that at the time I bought all of mine, the price difference was minimal (to me). I'd rather just spend a few bucks more and have another flash.



And this was and is exactly my conundrum. For an extra $200 or so I have the extra functionality, and a back up.

Anyway, for now I've decided to ditch the 580EX II. I got a nice deal on a pristine looking 600EX-RT on eBay today - seller who has sold high dollar lightly used gear in the recent past and has 100% positive feedback.

I really need at least three lights off camera, so I ordered an ST-E3-RT from Amazon. I'll have that by Saturday if not tomorrow. If I don't like it, or if I really feel as though I am missing the functionality, I'll return it early next week and get another 600EX-RT.


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## alexanderferdinand (Aug 31, 2013)

To the opening question: optical OR radio.

And yes: they are much more reliable than the PocketWizards, less fuzzing around with extra gear (although I love my gear...).
To use an 600 or the ST3 on top of the camera: depends on the situation.


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## winglet (Sep 4, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> Sure it does. because the RT3 is so inadequate and crippled you might as well get the 600RT.



Hmmm. A ST-RT-E3 does every function of a 600EX-RT except flash, which is not really its function as a remote, so I'm not sure how it could be called "crippled"! ;D

While I can appreciate the occasional need to put the remote on a cord to see it, I've never had it be an issue, but then I mainly shoot hand-held. So a quick tweak of a light or a group is no problem. The beauty of the design is that it operates exactly the same as the back of a 600EX-RT so switching back and forth is effortless. I find it quite "adequate"! 

Anyway I think the OP understands the limitations and benefits of the flash vs. the trigger. If I only had the one flash, I'd definitely get a second flash over the trigger. But when you have 2 or more 600EX-RT's, the trigger really starts to shine and a big flash in the hotshoe is overkill.


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## RLPhoto (Sep 4, 2013)

winglet said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Sure it does. because the RT3 is so inadequate and crippled you might as well get the 600RT.
> ...



How about no AF assist beam, no tilting screen (which it should have) and the price tag that you could use to buy a refurbed 600RT? I disagree, canon crippled this one for the obvious reasons and I own 5x 600RTs. :


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## Janbo Makimbo (Sep 4, 2013)

Many of the top Pros use the st-e3, i find that it gets the job done and to be honest I don't miss the focussing beam.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 4, 2013)

Janbo Makimbo said:


> Many of the top Pros use the st-e3, i find that it gets the job done and to be honest I don't miss the focussing beam.



Ditto. It's like saying the 70-200mm f/4L IS is a crippled lens because it's only f/4, and not f/2.8. 

When shooting in a studio setting, I've got soft light where I want it, and that's usually off axis. I have no need for an on-axis light, no need for AF assist, but having something on top of the camera that can control my other flashes and is *less than 1/4 the weight of the 600EX-RT* is a win for ease of use.


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## Janbo Makimbo (Sep 4, 2013)

And if the screen of the st-e3 is at an akward angle for a particular shot, then all of its functions can be controlled from the flash menu on the camera including group modes!


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## privatebydesign (Sep 4, 2013)

I have a love hate relationship with the ST-E3-RT, though I wouldn't be without it and I use it far more often than another 600 EX-RT as in hot shoe controller. 

I don't mind that it doesn't have an AF assist beam, like Neuro says, Canon didn't exactly defraud us in the specs so you know that before you buy it, but I do find the screen angle an issue on many occasions and I find the in camera flash menu clunky by comparison.

I have a set of designs/ideas for hotshoe extenders that vastly increase the hotshoe functionality, I just need a way forward with it, maybe I should start a crowd sourced project!


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 4, 2013)

Janbo Makimbo said:


> And if the screen of the st-e3 is at an akward angle for a particular shot, then all of its functions can be controlled from the flash menu on the camera including group modes!



I wasn't aware that full control of group flash was possible with the camera menu. I know three groups (A/B/C) can be controlled with ratios, but using the ST-E3-RT (or 600EX-RT as master) menus, it's possible to control five groups (A/B/C/D/E), and to have different modes for each group (E-TTL vs. manual).


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## privatebydesign (Sep 4, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Janbo Makimbo said:
> 
> 
> > And if the screen of the st-e3 is at an akward angle for a particular shot, then all of its functions can be controlled from the flash menu on the camera including group modes!
> ...


That was one of the reasons I got an EOS-M, so I could play with the full RT functionality through the camera menu, just to keep up with the system until I get post 2012 DSLR bodies. I still don't like the camera menu system as much as the ST-E3-RT though.


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## Janbo Makimbo (Sep 4, 2013)

I wasn't aware that full control of group flash was possible with the camera menu. I know three groups (A/B/C) can be controlled with ratios, but using the ST-E3-RT (or 600EX-RT as master) menus, it's possible to control five groups (A/B/C/D/E), and to have different modes for each group (E-TTL vs. manual).
[/quote]

Check out this page an look at it camera menu pics, this works with the ST-E3 mounted, no need to tilt the camera.... Only works on Canon models from 2012 onwards!

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/speedlite_flash_system_for_eos.do


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 4, 2013)

Janbo Makimbo said:


> > I wasn't aware that full control of group flash was possible with the camera menu. I know three groups (A/B/C) can be controlled with ratios, but using the ST-E3-RT (or 600EX-RT as master) menus, it's possible to control five groups (A/B/C/D/E), and to have different modes for each group (E-TTL vs. manual).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Thanks! * Having only three flashes and not yet having needed more than ratio control, I hadn't found them. With your info, I went looking in the menus - and there were the settings for 5 groups, mixed modes, etc.


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## Janbo Makimbo (Sep 5, 2013)

You are welcome, it sure takes away the need to always use the ST-E£ screen if it is at an akward angle.


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