# Expect Higher End Products at CP+ in February



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 5, 2015)

```
<p>I have received a lot of emails, tweets, and Facebook messages about the lacklustre announcements from Canon today. Canon generally doesn’t make a big splash at CES, which is a very broad consumer electronics show. You get lost in TV’s, software, phones and every other gadget one can think of.</p>
<p>I’d expect we’re going to see higher end products announced for <a href="http://www.cpplus.jp/en/" target="_blank">CP+ in Japan</a>, which runs from February 12, 2015 until February 15, 2015. Announcements for different types of products may trickle out in the weeks prior to the show.</p>
<p><strong>What could we expect for CP+?

</strong>I expect we’re going to see the rumoured/confirmed large zoom, large sensor PowerShot. <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2015/01/new-powershots-for-ces-next-week-cr1/" target="_blank">The specs from the other day</a> could be this camera.</p>
<p>The <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/11/did-canon-leak-the-ef-11-24mm-f4l/" target="_blank">EF 11-24 f/4L</a> could also make an appearance, this lens has been all but confirmed. We will probably see a new Rebel in the next month or two, so that could appear for CP+.</p>
<p>As for the high megapixel camera? This could be a show we get at least a development announcement as I do expect an announcement for this camera to come before NAB in April.</p>
<p>More to come….</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## ewg963 (Jan 5, 2015)

Okey dokey still nothing but words.....


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## BozillaNZ (Jan 5, 2015)

I don't understand the motivation to bring out waves after waves of ho hum P&S every year or half. This only desensitizes your customer to ignore anything you announce in the future.

Time to stop paying attention to those manufactures for 6 months, see ya...


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## Marsu42 (Jan 5, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> This could be a show we get at least a development announcement as I do expect an announcement for this camera to come before NAB in April.



I'm always hearing about these possible dev announcements when expected/rumored products are delayed - but does Canon actually do these?

I imagine they've got burned by the 1dx (and other) product delays and now only announce something if they've finished "developing" it and are sure it'll be ready for prime time after a few cosmetic tweaks?



BozillaNZ said:


> I don't understand the motivation to bring out waves after waves of ho hum P&S every year or half.



That's customer's expectations for you - if they see "p&s model a" and "p&s model b" in a brick'n mortar or online shop next to each other, they'll take the newer one expecting it'll have "better", more up to date tech.


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## sunnyVan (Jan 5, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> <p>I have received a lot of emails, tweets, and Facebook messages about the lacklustre announcements from Canon today. Canon generally doesn’t make a big splash at CES, which is a very broad consumer electronics show. You get lost in TV’s, software, phones and every other gadget one can think of.</p>
> <p>I’d expect we’re going to see higher end products announced for <a href="http://www.cpplus.jp/en/" target="_blank">CP+ in Japan</a>, which runs from February 12, 2015 until February 15, 2015. Announcements for different types of products may trickle out in the weeks prior to the show.</p>
> <p><strong>What could we expect for CP+?
> 
> ...



Lacklustre? You're being too polite. As I read the news, I muttered garbage.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 6, 2015)

So a new Rebel with an all NEW 18.01MP sensor for CP+ then? ;D


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## tolusina (Jan 6, 2015)

BozillaNZ said:


> I don't understand the motivation to bring out waves after waves of ho hum P&S every year or half. This only desensitizes your customer to ignore anything you announce in the future.
> 
> Time to stop paying attention to those manufactures for 6 months, see ya...


I'd think those waves of P&S are an attempt to stave off the low end juggernaut that phones have become.
I'd also think Canon might take the hint, bring out a camera that makes phone calls, surfs the web and runs apps, but hey, what do I know. Er, did Samsung try that already?


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 6, 2015)

tolusina said:


> BozillaNZ said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand the motivation to bring out waves after waves of ho hum P&S every year or half. This only desensitizes your customer to ignore anything you announce in the future.
> ...



Panasonic did at Photokina. 

http://www.panasonic.com/uk/consumer/cameras-camcorders/lumix-digital-cameras---point-and-shoot/compact-cameras/dmc-cm1.html


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## Tugela (Jan 6, 2015)

CES is about consumer entertainment....I have come to the conclusion that Canon have no interest in either the consumer or entertainment at all. Their attitude the last few years is baffling. They are the Nero of the imaging world I think.

CES is usually when they release their consumer video options, with NAB for the professional options. Obviously they have nothing for the consumer in 2015 on the video front, and since their cameras generally have inferior video compared to their camcorders, don't expect anything at CP+ either. The next rebel will be below the 7D2, which means that it will be ho-hum time again. It won't be the camera to take current T5i users to the next level since there is not that much space between the T5i and 7D2 outside of build quality anyway.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 6, 2015)

Tugela said:


> They are the Nero of the imaging world I think.



You're saying that like Nero, Canon is about to be redeemed because in fact most actions are sensible - but the reputation is intentionally hampered by 3rd parties baring a grudge? And the Sonikon competition needs a scarecrow to make their gadgets appear innovative, just like the early Christian church characterized Nero as the antichrist because it made them appear as heroic martyrs?


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## raptor3x (Jan 6, 2015)

Tugela said:


> CES is about consumer entertainment....I have come to the conclusion that Canon have no interest in either the consumer or entertainment at all. Their attitude the last few years is baffling. They are the Nero of the imaging world I think.



Nero as in the CD burning software or Nero as in the historical figure?


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## tolusina (Jan 6, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> .....
> Panasonic did at Photokina.
> 
> http://www.panasonic.com/uk/consumer/cameras-camcorders/lumix-digital-cameras---point-and-shoot/compact-cameras/dmc-cm1.html


Looks pretty slick it does.
I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to call a 1" sensor "Pro Sized" though.
Darn, CM1 doesn't on Panasonic's US site, that's good though, another cool thing I can't be tempted by, GAS is safe for now.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 6, 2015)

Tugela said:


> CES is usually when they release their consumer video options, with NAB for the professional options. Obviously they have nothing for the consumer in 2015 on the video front...



Yes, _obviously_... :

http://www.canonrumors.com/2015/01/canon-updates-compact-powerful-vixia-hf-r-series-camcorders/

(Please note I'm not commenting on the quality/advancement of the offerings, just pointing out they do have something new. Personally I have a Vixia HF M41 from 2011, it's very good and I've seen nothing more recent that tempts me to upgrade.)


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 6, 2015)

tolusina said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



It'll be in the USA by the summertime.... Not sure about other markets in North America.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 6, 2015)

WPPI (Wedding and Portrait Photography) on March 2-4 would be a good place for a 5D MK IV announcement. If it happens, late February would be the announcement date. I think it all depends on Canon getting the new sensor production cranked up.

http://www.wppionline.com/index.shtml


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## PureClassA (Jan 6, 2015)

Tugela said:


> there is not that much space between the T5i and 7D2 outside of build quality anyway.




Dude....seriously?


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## tpatana (Jan 6, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > there is not that much space between the T5i and 7D2 outside of build quality anyway.
> ...



Well, if you put them next to each other on a table, you can control how much space there's between them.


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## pianoplayer88key (Jan 6, 2015)

Am I the only one reading this site/forum with a gross income under $18k/year? For me to invest in something like a 5D3, even just a body, would be a significant chunk'o'change. The powershots are easily in my price range, although they aren't specifically the type of camera I'm looking at.

I'm eagerly looking forward to the rumored 1-inch "grote zoom" camera. I do hope it has a longer lens (even if it's not quite as fast), though. I plan to use it for, among other things, recording church music, and I'll want to be able to zoom from capturing an entire 200-300-member (or so) choir to zeroing in on an individual singer's face, even if it involves using a "lossless" digital zoom/crop on-the-fly in video mode cause the optical lens doesn't go far enough. From my calculations, I think I could do it with the Panasonic FZ1000, if it has that function while recording video (I know it can in stills). Also I'd prefer this camera be no more expensive than that one. I know the camera I'm replacing, the Canon SX10 IS, has enough range optically (without digital zoom) to do it, or at least close.

You may think "why is he looking at a thousand dollar camera with such a low income?" Well, I don't upgrade with each new generation. I make my equipment last as long as possible, even if parts of it break. And, I try to save up for it so that when it's time to replace the camera, I can pay cash for it. My current camera is the SX10 IS (for a while now the settings/clock battery has been dead so I have to reset the clock every time I turn it on), previously it was the S1 IS (it had the sensor issue which I had repaired due to the recall, but eventually it died too), and before that I had the A80 and A70 (which didn't last as long, and one of them got dropped & broke/jammed the lens).


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## SwampYankee (Jan 6, 2015)

Always the next show........................................


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## Tugela (Jan 6, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > CES is usually when they release their consumer video options, with NAB for the professional options. Obviously they have nothing for the consumer in 2015 on the video front...
> ...



They are not "new". The R60/62 are just repackaged versions of last years R50/52, which in turn were repackaged versions of the previous years R40/42. The year before that you had the R30/32, again the same camera but with the older DIGiC DVIII processor (it did not support 1080p60). The image quality is not substantially different (I have prosumer versions of the cameras with those processors, so I know that for a fact). In the intervening years Canon's competitors have made substantial improvements to IQ in their consumer camera equivalents. Canon just gives us the same old same old however. Apparently in that market the average consumer does not know any better, so they just buy the mark on the side of the camera.


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## Tugela (Jan 6, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > there is not that much space between the T5i and 7D2 outside of build quality anyway.
> ...



Yes, seriously.


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## Maiaibing (Jan 6, 2015)

pianoplayer88key said:


> Am I the only one reading this site/forum with a gross income under $18k/year?
> 
> I don't upgrade with each new generation. I make my equipment last as long as possible, even if parts of it break.



1) Could be. Even if photography has become much cheaper high end DSLR equipement is still very expensive. So a majority of the people discussing the newest and brightest offerings will tend to have money to spend.

2) Way to go!

Happy shooting!


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## Marsu42 (Jan 6, 2015)

pianoplayer88key said:


> Am I the only one reading this site/forum with a gross income under $18k/year? For me to invest in something like a 5D3, even just a body, would be a significant chunk'o'change. The powershots are easily in my price range, although they aren't specifically the type of camera I'm looking at.



Nope, Mr. Budget over here, too. I took ages to decide if I could afford a 5d3 and finally decided against it, even if the 6d's af system is a pita. And this was a one-time purchase, I cannot upgrade this every other year and hope it will last some.



pianoplayer88key said:


> I plan to use it for, among other things, recording church music, and I'll want to be able to zoom from capturing an entire 200-300-member (or so) choir to zeroing in on an individual singer's face, even if it involves using a "lossless" digital zoom/crop on-the-fly in video mode cause the optical lens doesn't go far enough.



Don't you do any post-processing at all, so you depend on in-camera cropping?

For this p&s gadgets, you've got the whole market to choose from as you always replace the whole camera, body and lens together. I imagine other manufacturers might be more competitive price-wise. But "movement at long range in low light" is one of the most demanding scenes possible.


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## Maiaibing (Jan 6, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> I'm always hearing about these possible dev announcements when expected/rumored products are delayed - but does Canon actually do these?
> 
> I imagine they've got burned by the 1dx (and other) product delays and now only announce something if they've finished "developing" it and are sure it'll be ready for prime time after a few cosmetic tweaks?



What I have noticed is that - for whatever reason - Canon nowadays bring their DSLRs to market within a few weeks after announcement.


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## Maui5150 (Jan 6, 2015)

Tugela said:


> since there is not that much space between the T5i and 7D2 outside of build quality anyway.



Yeah and there is not much space between an Audi A8 and a Toyota Corolla except build quality I suppose.

FPS?
AF?
Noise?
Weather Sealing?

There is a huge performance difference between the t5i and the 7D MK II which is about 2 - 3 times the camera and the price accurately reflects that


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## ewg963 (Jan 6, 2015)

Tugela said:


> It won't be the camera to take current T5i users to the next level since there is not that much space between the T5i and 7D2 outside of build quality anyway.


 Wow easy on the coffee there....


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## Pitbullo (Jan 6, 2015)

They will announce a high MP mirrorless. Didn't one of Canons bosses say we should expect such a thing very soon?


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## The Flasher (Jan 6, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> The EF 11-24 f/4L</a> could also make an appearance, this lens has been all but confirmed.



I'm smilin'


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## Marsu42 (Jan 6, 2015)

ewg963 said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > It won't be the camera to take current T5i users to the next level since there is not that much space between the T5i and 7D2 outside of build quality anyway.
> ...



 ... I agree the statement sounds ridiculous at first, but if you think about it, it depends on the perspective.

You can either look at the features that evolved during the last couple of years, and look at boderline shooting situations like fast fps tracking, low light, thin dof, shooting in snow and rain.

But: in the big picture since the dawn of digital dslr cameras, they are indeed rather similar: Same basic design, not too much resolution difference, same firmware foundation, the iq is a wash at base is w/o too much dynamic range. Both are crop cameras after all, and the unexpected pleasant release of the 7d2 doesn't change that. There's a reason a *lot* of people seem to be just fine using a Rebel with will appear as "high end" coming from a p&s.


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## dstppy (Jan 6, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > They are the Nero of the imaging world I think.
> ...



+1 we went from a place with exceptional posters to a place where people posting helpful things (Neuro) are an exception . . . seriously . . . what the heck?

CES has always been the SEMA of the electronics world . . . lots of oooh-ahhh stuff, but nothing awesome that's going to make it to the mainstream market any time soon.

As for complaining about yearly refreshes of P&S, I'd ask those offended to kindly shut up. People don't buy the SX10 IS, then the SX20 IS, then the SX30 IS . . . when they're ready for new gear, they buy the current version. SX10-> SX40 specs, but waited four years, we'd get the same a-bags that complain about old sensor tech in cameras.

P&S sales pay the bills. Trickle-down of features guarantees that higher-end cameras get refreshed with newer, better features. Look at the 70D, everyone started freaking out it was so good . . . wait, wasn't Canon supposed to go out of business because no one would buy higher-end cameras when that came out? :


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 6, 2015)

Tugela said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...



Do you not understand the meaning of the word 'new'?

*new* (no͞o/) _adjective_
1. not existing before; made, introduced, or discovered recently or now for the first time.

Was the 2015 Toyota Corolla new? The only real difference from 2014 was the addition of a fold-down rear seat armrest. But it's a model year newer, with concomitant effects on depreciations and resale value. 




Don Haines said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > there is not that much space between the T5i and 7D2 outside of build quality anyway.
> ...



An excellent response to an asinine comment. 




Marsu42 said:


> ewg963 said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...



Yes, and as Don points out 'in the grand scheme of things' there's really not much difference between an iPhone and a 1D X, or for that matter between a 2015 Toyota Corolla and a 1958 Edsel. The only 'real' changes are horse and buggy to automobile and film camera to digital camera....from a certain point of view.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 6, 2015)

The 11-24 f4 doesn't make much sense to me bearing in mind the 16-35 f4 L IS, sure there is a big difference between 11 and 16, but it gets ever more difficult to use effectively. If it does get announced the 11-24 is still only f4, it doesn't have IS, it won't take filters easily and any filter solution will be expensive, and the lens will cost considerably more than the very well rated 16-35 f4.

I predict, if it does get released, it will be bought by a very few who will initially marvel at the fov, it will get glowing reviews too, but it will not get the overall sales numbers because the advantages don't overcome the disadvantages for the vast majority of ultra wide shooters, and those that do own it will not use it regulraly. However a 12/14-24/30 f2.8 would have been a killer lens, give it IS and it would have had the potential to be a system enhancer that genuinely could have won new purchasers to the Canon family.

Oh Canon! Another missed opportunity.


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## Cory (Jan 6, 2015)

Don't we already have higher-end with the EOS M?


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## Don Haines (Jan 6, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yes, and as Don points out 'in the grand scheme of things' there's really not much difference between an iPhone and a 1D X, or for that matter between a 2015 Toyota Corolla and a 1958 Edsel. The only 'real' changes are horse and buggy to automobile and film camera to digital camera....from a certain point of view.



The thing is, as technology matures, we are approaching convergence. The days of a new model out every year with significant improvements are gone. Look at the difference between the high end cameras and the introductory cameras and you will not see very much difference between models and manufacturers when it comes down to basic image quality. Yes, there are differences, but they are small and getting smaller....

The only real way to differentiate between high end and introductory are the features, like better build, more complex AF systems, faster frame rate, etc... Realistically, we are at the point where your choice of lens will have more impact on your photos than the choice of camera body or your choice of manufacturer.


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## tpatana (Jan 6, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> The 11-24 f4 doesn't make much sense to me bearing in mind the 16-35 f4 L IS, sure there is a big difference between 11 and 16, but it gets ever more difficult to use effectively.



For me, the 16 -> 11 is not the most important aspect, I'm waiting for the IQ/sharpness/distortion -figures. If they could match certain other manufacturer 12-24 quality, I think the lens would sell plenty.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 6, 2015)

tpatana said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > The 11-24 f4 doesn't make much sense to me bearing in mind the 16-35 f4 L IS, sure there is a big difference between 11 and 16, but it gets ever more difficult to use effectively.
> ...



Who, Sigma? If Canon can't beat a sub $900 Sigma IQ then they won't sell more than a couple of dozen 11-24's, the launch price is bound to be over $2,000.


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## Maiaibing (Jan 6, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> we are at the point where your choice of lens will have more impact on your photos than the choice of camera body or your choice of manufacturer.



I'd say we have been there for years already. I'd much rather shoot a Rebel DSLR with the best lenses than a 5DIII with a kit lens.


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## chmod (Jan 7, 2015)

Face it folks.

Someone at the very top of the Canon food chain decided, literally years ago, to stick with big old bodies and crappy handhelds. So this is what we get as announcements.

Like GM decades ago - they focused upon the wrong products and ignored the nimble little imports being purchased like snacks.

Mirrorless = subcompacts.

Canon is facing a total fail and too full of hubris to admit it.

I sold my 1DX and all my L primes. Not looking back. enjoy your PowerShots and shoulder killing full size units.

chmod


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## privatebydesign (Jan 7, 2015)

chmod said:


> Face it folks.
> 
> Someone at the very top of the Canon food chain decided, literally years ago, to stick with big old bodies and crappy handhelds. So this is what we get as announcements.
> 
> ...



You might have a point, but you failed to make it. 

The best selling vehicle in the USA last year was the Ford 150 pickup, made in the USA. The second best selling vehicle was the Chevy Silverado pickup truck, made in the USA. The fourth best selling vehicle in the USA was the Dodge Ram pickup truck, made in the USA. If you are interested, the third best selling vehicle sold in the USA in 2014 was the Toyota Camry, made in the USA. None of them are imports and only one nimble.

Actually you probably did make your point, mirrorless might be popular in other parts of the world but they don't make a serious impact on sales in the USA.


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## Dylan777 (Jan 7, 2015)

chmod said:


> Face it folks.
> 
> Someone at the very top of the Canon food chain decided, literally years ago, to stick with big old bodies and crappy handhelds. So this is what we get as announcements.
> 
> ...


I still carry my RX1 here and there. Yes it's light weight and small. 

However when my 6yrs competing in indoor swimming, my 1DX + 400mm f2.8 IS II or 200mm f2 IS are my weapons. With all cameras in today market, there is no other cameras can beat the 1DX. The world is not perfect, therefore, there is no perfect camera for everyone. Buy the ones that fit you best


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## AvTvM (Jan 7, 2015)

> We will probably see a new Rebel in the next month or two, so that could appear for CP+.



Mega-Yawn! Yet another mirrorflapper Rebel ... yay! 

Why not ...

an upgraded EOS-M3 with (at least!) 70D sensor and the overhyped DPAF-System finally delivering decent AF performance in real life? 
plus a "EOS-M3 Pro" with (at least!) 7D II sensor, "Retina"-EVF, and high-grade DPAF-system matching or besting overall performance of Samsung NX-1? fully tracking-capable AF @ 15fps 

Both decently priced? EOS M3 like any run of the mill "rebel DSLR", EOS "M3 Pro" a bit below 7D II - competitive with Fuji X-T1 and Samsung NX-1?


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> Mega-Yawn! Yet another mirrorflapper Rebel ... yay!
> 
> Why not ...
> 
> ...



Perhaps because dSLRs continue to outsell MILCs by a wide margin? Based on published sales data, it's quite probable that sales of Canon Rebel/xxxD dSLRs exceed those of all MILCs on the market from all brands combined. 

Why not ...

sell more units? 
increase revenues and profits? 

Perhaps you find such things boring, but they make shareholders of publicly traded companies say ... yay ...and mean it!


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## J.R. (Jan 7, 2015)

chmod said:


> I sold my 1DX and all my L primes. Not looking back.



Not looking back?  

Seriously, what sort of lunatic comes with ranting posts at CR AFTER selling all his Canon gear? 

I keep hearing of guys who break up with their girlfriends but still keep checking their FB profiles to see what is going on in the girl's life ... It's supposed to be a mental condition, get help!


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## powershot2012 (Jan 7, 2015)

Darn, there goes that *Canonitis* again: 

Noun/Latin origin - To never go the full step you really need to innovate and take over the market :-\




Maiaibing said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > we are at the point where your choice of lens will have more impact on your photos than the choice of camera body or your choice of manufacturer.
> ...


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jan 7, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > we are at the point where your choice of lens will have more impact on your photos than the choice of camera body or your choice of manufacturer.
> ...


I think so. I'm not saying that a Rebel can do what 1DX can do, but in many situations, high quality lenses make the most difference in image quality that a high quality body.

I can not understand how, in 2015 Canon lens line still has terrible lens like 75-300mm and 28-135mm. :-[ Does a well-informed person would prefer a kit 6D + 75-300 + 28-135 instead of a Rebel T5i + 15-85 + 55-250STM? ???


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2015)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> I can not understand how, in 2015 Canon lens line still has terrible lens like 75-300mm and 28-135mm. :-[ Does a well-informed person would prefer a kit 6D + 75-300 + 28-135 instead of a Rebel T5i + 15-85 + 55-250STM? ???



I can't understand the 28-135 from a consumer perspective – it was the 'cheap' FF kit lens when entry level cameras were full frame because there was no 'd' in front of SLR. It's not a great zoom range for APS-C because it lacks a wide angle FoV. But I'm sure it's cheap for Canon to produce, so they keep it in the lineup. 

I do understand the 75-300mm, though. If bet it actually outsells the EF-S 55-250 STM, because it's substantially cheaper ($180 vs. $300 for the 55-250 STM). Plus, 300mm is more than 250mm, so it's 'more for less' and consumers like that. For example, the 75-300 is stocked at my local Target, the 55-250 is not.


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## Bob Howland (Jan 7, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> dSLRs continue to outsell MILCs by a wide margin? Based on published sales data, it's quite probable that sales of Canon Rebel/xxxD dSLRs exceed those of all MILCs on the market from all brands combined.



And how much of the dSLR sales advantage is due to sheer inertia? There are an awful lot of legacy Nikon and Canon lenses out there. Largely ignoring the MILC market certainly works as a short term strategy but I question its viability over the long haul, >3-5 years.

I think the Samsung NX1 is potentially a "game-changer". (Sorry, but I hate that expression.) How are Canon and Nikon going to respond if Samsung introduces an NX1-derivative that has 16MP and a revised/refined user interface and does 25 full resolution frames per second, but loses a stop in high-ISO image quality, compared to the 1Dx and D4s, due to its smaller sensor size? Such a camera may happen later this year.


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## Dylan777 (Jan 7, 2015)

Bob Howland said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dSLRs continue to outsell MILCs by a wide margin? Based on published sales data, it's quite probable that sales of Canon Rebel/xxxD dSLRs exceed those of all MILCs on the market from all brands combined.
> ...



Bigger question, where are the lenses?


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2015)

Bob Howland said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dSLRs continue to outsell MILCs by a wide margin? Based on published sales data, it's quite probable that sales of Canon Rebel/xxxD dSLRs exceed those of all MILCs on the market from all brands combined.
> ...



Sales numbers and public statements from Canon and Nikon are consistent with entry-level bodies _with kit lenses_, suggesting that legacy lenses might not be a huge factor. OTOH, the inertia of public perception (i.e., dSLRs are the higher end product, particularly in North America) may be a big factor. 

Canon and Nikon haven't totally ignored the MILC market, but both of their initial forays (EOS M, Nikon 1) were basically flops as far as global sales. I don't know that Sony/Fuji/Oly/Samsung will change that, but Canon and/or Nikon jumping in with both feet could change the significant dSLR sales lead. By that I mean multiple levels of bodies including FF offerings, a robust collection of format-specific lenses (no adapter needed), etc., basically an ecosystem like their dSLR lines. We'll likely see things heading that direction someday, but given current market shares it doesn't seem in Canon's or Nikon's best interests. 



Bob Howland said:


> I think the Samsung NX1 is potentially a "game-changer". (Sorry, but I hate that expression.) How are Canon and Nikon going to respond if Samsung introduces an NX1-derivative that has 16MP and a revised/refined user interface and does 25 full resolution frames per second, but loses a stop in high-ISO image quality, compared to the 1Dx and D4s, due to its smaller sensor size? Such a camera may happen later this year.



Most likely, Canon and Nikon won't see any need to respond to what amounts to a niche product with a very limited native lens collection. 

Edit: maybe they'll respond by suing Samsung for design patent infringement if the camera's corners are too rounded...


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## Bob Howland (Jan 7, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> Bigger question, where are the lenses?



Or even a Fuji-style lens road map, updated regularly as design decisions are finalized and with the lenses actually introduced when they are promised?


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## scyrene (Jan 7, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> chmod said:
> 
> 
> > Face it folks.
> ...



Quite so. Clearly someone interesting in weight and inconspicuousness will choose a small, light camera. But as someone whose favourite subject is birds, no mirrorless can yet come close to a 1Dx. PS my shoulders are still very much alive


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## Bob Howland (Jan 7, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Bob Howland said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



"Barriers to Entry"


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2015)

chmod said:


> Canon is facing a total fail and too full of hubris to admit it.



YAPODFC. :




scyrene said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > chmod said:
> ...



+1

1D X + 600mm lens = big and heavy
MILC + 600mm lens = big and heavy and sacrificing performance

I know which I prefer...


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## Orangutan (Jan 7, 2015)

chmod said:


> Canon is facing a total fail and too full of hubris to admit it.
> 
> I sold my 1DX and all my L primes. Not looking back. enjoy your PowerShots and shoulder killing full size units.



This is a classic logical fallacy(*): you're assuming that your needs/wants are representative of the overall market. Canon, so far, seems to be better at catering to the overall market than its competitors. I would love to see better tech in Canon gear, but until the competition steps up and takes away market share...

(*) This is a version of the Availability Heuristic/Fallacy, relying on a single data point (yourself), or a small set of data points (people you know or heard about) to extrapolate to the overall reality. It's self-deceptive.


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## mackguyver (Jan 7, 2015)

chmod said:


> Canon is facing a total fail and too full of hubris to admit it.
> 
> I sold my 1DX and all my L primes. Not looking back. enjoy your PowerShots and shoulder killing full size units.


Two torn rotator cuffs, three herniated cervical discs, and two worn-out knees can't keep me away from my 1D X and white lenses ;D. 

Street shooters can have fun with their little EVIL/MILCs, but that's not what I shoot, and cheating physics makes for fun debate, but doesn't translate well into reality...

None of the injuries have anything to do with my photography, BTW.


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## BozillaNZ (Jan 7, 2015)

I dusted my Panasonic GX1 (m43) and gave it a go again this morning, after 1 hour walk with the little camera in my hand, I had hand cramps :'( :'( :'(

I was going to buy the LX100 but after this I'm not so sure.

Those girly small cameras are better left to the wives.


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## lintoni (Jan 7, 2015)

BozillaNZ said:


> I dusted my Panasonic GX1 (m43) and gave it a go again this morning, after 1 hour walk with the little camera in my hand, I had hand cramps :'( :'( :'(
> 
> I was going to buy the LX100 but after this I'm not so sure.
> 
> Those girly small cameras are better left to the wives.


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## Tugela (Jan 7, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> Bob Howland said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



The average Canon DSLR owner has one lens. Even enthusiasts generally only have a few, in focal ranges covered by most manufacturers. Lens selection is not an issue for 99.9% of buyers. Having a catalog of a 100 lenses means nothing if almost everyone only uses a selection of about half a dozen of those.


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## Tugela (Jan 7, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Bob Howland said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



People who buy most of those DSLRs don't know anything about cameras and the qualities of various models. They shop based on the brand label on the front, that is all. Large sales numbers does not mean that the product is better, it just means that brand recognition is better.


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## Oldcracker (Jan 8, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > we are at the point where your choice of lens will have more impact on your photos than the choice of camera body or your choice of manufacturer.
> ...



Agree wholeheartedly. Don makes a great point, but I'd say we've been there for long periods twice. First after the advancements in in-body metering during the film days surrounding the Nikon F2 series, and then after the beginnings of the migration to digital and the introduction of the 5D and then 5DII.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 8, 2015)

Tugela said:


> People who buy most of those DSLRs don't know anything about cameras and the qualities of various models. They shop based on the brand label on the front, that is all. Large sales numbers does not mean that the product is better, it just means that brand recognition is better.



Large sales numbers don't mean the product is worse, either. After all, _why_ is brand recognition better? Sure, advertising plays a role, but Canon has been the dSLR market leader for 11+ years (that's one reason they have funds to pay for things like Superbowl ads) and it's not credible for that to be the case if their products were failing to meet the needs if consumers.


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## Dylan777 (Jan 8, 2015)

Tugela said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Bob Howland said:
> ...



"The average Canon DSLR owner has one lens. Even enthusiasts generally only have a few, in focal ranges covered by most manufacturers." ==> where did you get that data?

"Having a catalog of a 100 lenses means nothing if almost everyone only uses a selection of about half a dozen of those." ==> Mr. A needs 16-200mm fL. Mr. B needs 200-800mm fl. Mr. C needs TS-E lenses etc. Looks like Canon/DSLR offers much better selection for all users.


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## dancan (Jan 8, 2015)

"Having a catalog of a 100 lenses means nothing if almost everyone only uses a selection of about half a dozen of those." ==> Mr. A needs 16-200mm fL. Mr. B needs 200-800mm fl. Mr. C needs TS-E lenses etc. Looks like Canon/DSLR offers much better selection for all users.

That is quite true! 
I am a Mr.C who likes the TSE-17 mm so much which other brands d not have!
If they had it I would seriously think about a change of brand.


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