# Gearheads and legs



## geekpower (Mar 25, 2015)

Shopping for a tripod.

What I've learned from borrowing my friend's cheap tripod is that I hate flexy legs, and I really hate saggy ballheads.

I will be exclusively shooting things that don't move, mostly landscape, and maybe some architectural interiors. I am a patient perfectionist, so I'm thinking a gearhead is in order. Heaviest lens will be a 70-200 2.8, but stability in the wind would be nice.

I am considering the Manfrotto 410 head, and either the 3 or 4 section 055 carbon legs. This combo is already pushing the high end of my budget, though I could probably save up a little longer if need be.

Any comments on the stiffness of the 4 section legs vs the 3? Any alternatives in the same price range?


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## Coldhands (Mar 25, 2015)

This link usually gets posted to any discussion about tripods here at CR, so I shall proudly carry on tradition:

http://bythom.com/support.htm

Probably not what you want to hear with regards to budget, but it might just change your mind.

My only regret with buying my Gitzo is that I didn't do it sooner.

Not sure about a geared head as I've never used one, but I had a similar mindset to you back when I bought a 3-way head to go with my first Manfrotto. I ended up hating it and how slow and cumbersome it was to use. A high quality ball-head will never sag and will offer you greater flexibility in a smaller package.

Just some things to consider.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 25, 2015)

Geared head = a precision positioning device. Gearhead = many people on this forum. 

The Manfrotto 410 is an excellent choice for the uses you describe. Manfrotto legs are a good combo of value and quality, the 055 are very good (though not of the same quality as Gitzo or RRS). I had a 190CXPRO4 for several years and was generally happy with it.


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## Hector1970 (Mar 25, 2015)

I use the 410 Geared head- It's very good but it's also very heavy.
Good for precise changes to get level. Slow to get it right (three knobs - its very easy to start twisting the wrong one. Probably improves you as a photographer as it makes the composition very deliberate.
It could be used as a weapon if you were in trouble. It's big and heavy.
I remember when I first got it I was surprised about it's size. The photo online made it look smaller.
Swiss Arca if you want the ultimate in Tripod Head.
Manfrotto are good - I have had mechanical failures with them but they were surprisingly good about fixing it free of charge. (They use a die cast metal which seems to be brittle).
Their tripods are rigid. 
I much prefer cliplock rather than twist lock.
I haven't found twist lock very good over time on the tripods I've had. They tend to malfunction eventually.


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## Don Haines (Mar 25, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Geared head = a precision positioning device. Gearhead = many people on this forum.



As a gearhead with a geared head.....

I have the Manfroto 410. It is a very solid head and allows you to position your camera/lens exactly. One of the disadvantages to ball heads is that with a heavy lens, you aim the camera, tighten the head, and it sags. You end up having to point the camera above your target, tighten the ball head, and hope that it sags into position. The better the ball head, the less sag, but it is still there.

With a decent geared head, you turn the adjustment screws to set it into position and you are done. You also get less vibration than from lesser solutions. As a bonus, the 410 has a release lever that allows you to make fast changes without having to turn the knobs dozens of times.

The downside is that it is slow to adjust.... and this is your tradeoff.... precision VS speed.


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## NancyP (Mar 25, 2015)

Geekpower, that's a good combo. I have the 410 and 055 3-part aluminum legset, excellent except during a stiff wind, where the aluminum vibrates and doesn't damp down easily. I am going to recommend the Hejnar adapter for Arca-Swiss plate use: see www.hejnarphotostore.com for details. I never liked the Manfrotto plates, although I bought my head used at a local photo store (people either love or hate geared heads, I suspect some buy the 410 thinking it would be great and finding that it is fussy, just like some buy ball heads and get irritated at the lack of precision). User installable, and believe me, I am no mechanical genius and I say it is dead easy, once you get the Manfrotto bolt unscrewed.

P.S. The 410 is HEAVY. You want a nice heavy tripod. You may end up rigging a weight system for the CF tripod - sometimes I want it for my aluminum legset, when I have the Astrotrac and camera with telephoto on it (long moment arm). My model, several years old, did not have a hook on the end of the center column. Disregard the following if they have added a hook on the new model. You can easily rig something from a short loop of nylon paracord and a cheap not-for-climbing carabiner to gather in the slack of the loop and provide a hook/holder for your weight.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 25, 2015)

Manfrotto just came out with a new geared head, the MHXPRO-3WG XPRO, which looks quite interesting. 

I recently went through a similar search, I have had the 055CX 3 for a long time but wanted to add a geared head. I looked out of the box and got the SunwayFoto GH-Pro, it isn't an Arca Swiss but I like it, for all its quirks.

It is important to narrow down what you need, do you need three way gearing or two way gearing, what plate system are you getting drawn into, does the top plate pan independently, etc etc. All these minor feature differences can be worked around, but you want to make sure you get the core feature set you need.


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## mackguyver (Mar 25, 2015)

My vote would be to do two things:

1. Try a geared head if you can. They are precise, but can be tedious and frustrating to use if you're not an experienced photographer. There a plenty of ballheads that lock quite tight, including Manfrotto's hydraulic heads, but if you go that route, replace the clamp with an Arca-Swiss compatible one as the RC2 systems has too much play in it. The heads from Arca-Swiss themselves seem to hold the tightest according the few comparison tests that are out there.

2. Spend the bulk of the money on the head. CF legs are nice, but I have the 055XPROB legs and while a bit heaver, they are really tough. And to Nancy's point, the extra weight isn't always a bad thing. Seven years of shooting in swamps, saltwater, and many other rough places later, they are still working well. The lower leg sections are bit sticky but they work.

Also, all other things being equal (material, locks, etc.), 3-section legs are going to be sturdier than 4-section legs. The 4-sections tripods store in a smaller space, that's all. A top notch 4-section tripod will be much sturdier than a cheap 3-section, however.


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## sagittariansrock (Mar 25, 2015)

I second the comments about getting heavier legs. My Gitzo series 2 is very top heavy with a Z1 head and RRS leveling base. A geared head would be heavier.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 25, 2015)

One thing I really don't like about the 405 and 410, and the new MHXPRO-3WG is that the camera plate tilt gearing is off center, this can make for very unbalanced loads, the 400, the Arca Swiss D4 and the SunwayFoto GH-Pro all have the top plate gearing in a more balanced orientation.


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## sagittariansrock (Mar 25, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> One thing I really don't like about the 405 and 410, and the new MHXPRO-3WG is that the camera plate tilt gearing is off center, this can make for very unbalanced loads, the 400, the Arca Swiss D4 and the SunwayFoto GH-Pro all have the top plate gearing in a more balanced orientation.



I had mentioned the D4 in my post, but deleted it when I saw the cost...


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## privatebydesign (Mar 25, 2015)

sagittariansrock said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > One thing I really don't like about the 405 and 410, and the new MHXPRO-3WG is that the camera plate tilt gearing is off center, this can make for very unbalanced loads, the 400, the Arca Swiss D4 and the SunwayFoto GH-Pro all have the top plate gearing in a more balanced orientation.
> ...



I got the GH-Pro because it is a baby D4, and that is the feature set I needed most. Of course it isn't close in quality but it isn't close in price either! I will probably end up with the D4 at some point but I am in no rush.


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## sagittariansrock (Mar 25, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> sagittariansrock said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...


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## Don Haines (Mar 25, 2015)

For stability in wind, tie your tripod down. Put a hook on the bottom of the central column and use some string to tension your tripod down to your camera bag or backpack. You don't want to hang the weight, as it will make things worse if it is swaying in the wind, just good tension to keep it solid.


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## NancyP (Mar 26, 2015)

Sunwayfoto geared head is not listed on the US and generic Sunwayfoto sites. Cease and desist from Arca-Swiss, perhaps?


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## JustMeOregon (Mar 26, 2015)

@ NancyP,

Your mention of the Hejnar adapter for the 410 has absolutely made my day! I have hated the Manfrotto 410 plate for years; now its days are numbered! Thank you! Do you use the extended plate or the regular-length one? Was it very hard installing the Hejnar adapter? Thanks again in advance...


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## Zeidora (Mar 26, 2015)

I've had Gitzo 1200 and 1300 series CFs and recently upgraded to RRS 34L. Never used Manfrottos, so cannot comment. The link in the first reply is quite good. Also look at RRS website for their legs guide. Given that tripods do not go obsolete, don't be afraid of spending more and get a really solid performer. I bought my Gitzo 1200 legs in ~1997 and they still work great. Now I have heavier gear, so rather pick the RRS 34L, but the Gitzo 1200 is still around.

Re wind: go one size/weight class up from what you need for the 70-200 lens. Make sure legs have hook underneath platform to add weight.
3 vs. 4 sections: as many have pointed out, all other things being equal, 4 is less stable then 3. I got the RRS 34L 4-section, but it is very tall. For most shots, I only use 3 sections (I'm 6 feet tall), but have the option of using 4th section if I need to.
Sagging ball-head = bad ball head. If the only complaint you have about ball heads is the sagging, then try a quality head. My Arca B1 got replaced by a RRS BH55. I shoot lots of 3:1 - 7:1 macro and you will see the smallest of movements. With those two head, there is none. At the other extreme the 300 + 1.4x = 420 mm, no change upon lock-down. You have MUCH more error with the viewfinder not showing everything even on alleged 100% viewfinders.
Re geared movements, my other camera is a Arca Swiss 4x5" classic; there is the geared option (metric), but I have not felt the need for it. LFers are well-known for being OCD.

Arca-style QRs are industry standard for a reason. Get an L-body-plate.

If you want a geared head, go for it, but maybe try one first.

CF in saltwater is great. I'm a marine biologist, so my tripods have seen salt water. No problems whatsoever.


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## geekpower (Mar 31, 2015)

thanks for all the great suggestions, everyone.

i'm still debating whether to go for the 055/410 combo or to save up a little longer and step up to the 057/405 (or equivalent in another brand). simple physics suggests that a taller 4 section tripod without a column should be more stable than a shorter 3 section with a column... damn you, torque!


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## Don Haines (Mar 31, 2015)

geekpower said:


> thanks for all the great suggestions, everyone.
> 
> i'm still debating whether to go for the 055/410 combo or to save up a little longer and step up to the 057/405 (or equivalent in another brand). simple physics suggests that a taller 4 section tripod without a column should be more stable than a shorter 3 section with a column... damn you, torque!



I don't think I have ever seen a tripod where it was really stable with the column all the way up and the tripod was not 25 pounds or more....... my vote is 4 section taller tripod....


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## Zeidora (Mar 31, 2015)

If you have any concern about stability, forget about a column. Just a plate on top of the legs. period. On some, you can remove the plate and insert a column, so that may be an option. I have that, but not to get taller, but to invert the column, hang the camera from below, to get lower. Particularly fun with 4x5" upside down - upside down and then all controls backwards.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 31, 2015)

NancyP said:


> Sunwayfoto geared head is not listed on the US and generic Sunwayfoto sites. Cease and desist from Arca-Swiss, perhaps?



Not a chance, if Photoflex can get away with their barefaced clone of the Cube then I don't see why Sunwayfoto can't make a geared head of the same style, though not design, as the D4. I suspect they are not being pushed in the USA yet is because the USA importer doesn't have 100% faith in the quality control and basic design as it currently stands, and there is no doubt a couple of simple alterations would greatly improve it and currently the backlash is more than many would accept.

You can get them direct from here http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-SUNWAYFOTO-GH-PRO-geared-head-made-for-Gitozo-Manfrotto-benno-tripod/32279007596.html


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## pwp (Mar 31, 2015)

To state the bleeding obvious you'll get what you pay for. Buy $50 shoes and they'll last a few months...buy $400 shoes and you'll likely get a decade out of them.

The two tripods (legs) I've used and trusted on a daily basis both date from the mid 1990's. My heavy tripod is a Manfrotto 075B and my light tripod is a Gitzo, around the same size as a Manfrotto 055. The Gitzo has been in salt water, grime, dust, sand and bangs around in the back of the car. There's not much paint left on it but in spite of zero maintenance, it's still perfect. A slightly older Manfrotto 055 has not stood the test of time nearly as well...it's very much a spare these days.

What I have changed over the years is the heads. I literally wore out the original Manfrotto Super-Pro head http://www.manfrotto.com/3d-super-pro-head and recently updated to an Induro PHQ 5way head. http://www.indurogear.com/products/induro-phq-series-panheads-phq3.aspx This is a very nice piece of work which I chose over the 405 and 410 geared heads. The original Gitzo ball head was a piece of rubbish. It was updated to a Manfrotto ball 488 RC4 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Manfrotto-488RC4-Midi-Ball-Plate/dp/B000KFU0L4 which was kind of OK, but when I consolidated four different Manfrotto plates to standardized Arca Swiss plates, the Gitzo got its third head, an Induro BHL-2 http://www.indurogear.com/products/induro-bhl-series-ballheads-bhl2.aspx 

So my take-away from all this is to get very good quality legs, plus a good workable head. Heads are a far more personal item than legs, and you may need to update over time to best suit your current projects, and keep multiple heads.

OP, if you plan on using heavy lenses, a ball head can present problems. One false move and the whole thing can flop, damaging camera or lens or both, or worse still, crushed fingers are not unheard of. We are spoiled for choice with great legs and heads. Go to a stockist and try them out rather than simply following a CR recommendation and buying online. Good tripods can last decades. Oh yes, simplify your future and get Arca Swiss compatible heads. 

-pw


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## Marsu42 (Mar 31, 2015)

pwp said:


> To state the bleeding obvious you'll get what you pay for. Buy $50 shoes and they'll last a few months...buy $400 shoes and you'll likely get a decade out of them.



... not if you have horses stepping on them on a daily basis 



geekpower said:


> What I've learned from borrowing my friend's cheap tripod is that I hate flexy legs, and I really hate saggy ballheads.



I cannot comment on your specific choices, but from experience I'd say either go budget (but not the very cheapest) and accept that this setup isn't made for heavy lenses in a tornado, or go very expensive. Anything in between will leave you still disappointed, but still with a big hole in your wallet.

I learned this lesson by buying two mid-range China-copy ballheads, worked fine at first, but then the cheap materials showed and they broke or didn't work properly anymore. In this case it was buy cheap, buy triple ... and as written, it wasn't even really cheap.


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