# Autofocus of 50D/7D with 2x III TC and 70-200 2.8 IS II for sports



## Nate (Aug 14, 2012)

Hi, 

I shoot with a 5D mk III and I need a second body for sports.
Mainly what I need is to shoot powder skiers/snowboarders coming down on the hill, and I shoot them or from the bottom of the mountain or from helicopter. 
I know the best results would be with a 600 lens but I dont have it. 
I was thinking that maybe the 400mm is not enough (5D3 2x TC III 70-200) so to buy a second used body.

Among crop bodies with one has the best auto focus and pretty good fps?

Any experience with that setup ether sport or wildlife? (50D/7D 2x TC III and 70-200 IS II)
If someone has some samples with that setup, please post them.

Cheers!


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## kaihp (Aug 14, 2012)

Nate said:


> Among crop bodies with one has the best auto focus and pretty good fps?
> 
> Any experience with that setup ether sport or wildlife? (50D/7D 2x TC III and 70-200 IS II)
> If someone has some samples with that setup, please post them.


I have had rather disappointing experience with my 50D and 70-200mm IS MkI, when shooting motorcycle racing (ie fairly small focus areas, with erratic movement pattern).

The 7D has a vastly more advanced AF system where you can link neighboring AF points to the main AF point - something the 50D/60D cannot do. The 7D also have a deeper burst buffer and a 8fps vs 6fps on the 50D. The 7D feels much more responsive than the 50D.

In short: pick the 7D.


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## Peerke (Aug 14, 2012)

kaihp said:


> Nate said:
> 
> 
> > Among crop bodies with one has the best auto focus and pretty good fps?
> ...


+1

And while you're buying the 7D, pick up a 400 f/5.6 too. Same range as your combination, but fast, very fast AF.


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## mws (Aug 14, 2012)

The 7D has much better auto focus then the 50D, but depending on were you are budget wise, you can get a used 50D for cheap.


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## Nate (Aug 14, 2012)

Peerke said:


> And while you're buying the 7D, pick up a 400 f/5.6 too. Same range as your combination, but fast, very fast AF.




Yes that looks good! I forgot about this option ;D
I might go with 5D3 2x TC and 400mm

I still wait for some samples, however this looks good!


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## tron (Aug 14, 2012)

Nate said:


> Peerke said:
> 
> 
> > And while you're buying the 7D, pick up a 400 f/5.6 too. Same range as your combination, but fast, very fast AF.
> ...


You cannot add any TC to the 5D3 400mm f/5.6L combination to use for sports! It will simple not focus at all if it the TC is a Canon one and it will rather struggle with a 3rd party TC. Certainly not with a 2X 3rd party TC!

And the f/8 (400mm f/5.6L + 1.4X) or f/11 (400mm f/5.6L + 2X) do not help for sports too...


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## Nate (Aug 14, 2012)

so it still remains the first option...

Thanks for the information


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## kaihp (Aug 14, 2012)

Remember that the 7D & 50D with a 400mm lens will effectively be 640mm FF.

Shooting with a 400mm on a crop body requires you often to look over the camera to first spot the skier, and then "dive in" to find the skier in the viewfinder. If you have too much sideway motion, you often have the subject to move past the viewfinder before you can react. Then you pan to "catch up".

But the 400mm/5.6L is very nice due to it's size and weight. The f/4.0 and f/2.8L are quite big and heavy. And costly.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 14, 2012)

The 1D Mark IV is actually the best choice here, but that may well be out of your budget. The effective crop is much better on this than a 7D, despite being 1.3 vs. 1.6. It focuses faster and has a much better AF system than either the 7D or 50D. However, it's still running right around $4k, so probably wouldn't be practical. In that case, you can win with a 7D.


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## tomscott (Aug 14, 2012)

What about a 100-400mm? Get a bit more flexibility.

What about a 300mm F4 with a 1.4x extender? on a 7D will be 672mm at 5.6 But the 400mm F5.6 will be faster focusing and at 640mm not gaining much and the 400mm will be cheaper than the 300mm combo.

I think the 100-400mm or 400mm F5.6 on you 5D MKIII will be most cost effective. You can always crop a little bit with the 5D MKIII anyway. But it is a nice option to have 2 bodies.

I would skip the 50D a good second hand one in the UK is about £500-550. A 7D is around £900 and is better in everyway. The 50D has worse IQ than the 40D because of the pixel density being a 3rd more but the same tech. Also noise is horrible too. The 9 point of the 40/50D is pretty old too for fast action. Im still using a 40D with a 5D MKIII coming soon. But if anything if you want a cheap alternative get a 40D they are about £350 now still produce great images. But 7D every time, but the 1D IV would be the ultimate.

You also have to remember that a 70-200mm with a 2x extender reduces the AF speed significantly so a 400mm F5.6 is always going to be better.


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## brianwallace21 (Aug 14, 2012)

Your other option is a 40D - it's even cheaper than the 50D and has the same AF system. Obviously the 7D is a better all around camera but it's almost three times as much as a 40D.

I'd second the 300 f4L IS USM + 1.4x TC option. It's a decently fast set up and gives you the wider option of 300 as well as the longer reach of the 420.


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## heptagon (Aug 14, 2012)

The 70-200 L IS II with 2x III TC would certainly work but you will need to shoot at f/8 and need lots of light. AF performance also depends on the light level. I don't know of a direct comparison between this combination and the 400 F/5.6 and the 100-400L or the 300L F/4 + 1.4x TC. If you get a good sample of each one, the image quality at F/8 will be satisfying and the prices are in a comparable range. 

But long focal lengths are very hard to master and due to light constraints you may not be able to shoot at F/8 anyways and need something faster. Then it might be considerable to start with the 1.4x TC for the 70-200 you already have. This combination is certainly very good at F/4 already. 

Using a crop camera is always a better choice than a teleconverter or a mediocre lens. 

Only if you can't get further with cropping you might consider getting a longer lens. Before you go for the 400L F/5.6 check if you can live without IS. The 300L F/4 and 100-400L also only have mediocre IS compared to the 70-200 you have.


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## Richard Lane (Aug 14, 2012)

Nate said:


> Hi,
> 
> I shoot with a 5D mk III and I need a second body for sports.
> Mainly what I need is to shoot powder skiers/snowboarders coming down on the hill, and I shoot them or from the bottom of the mountain or from helicopter.
> ...



Nate, That Sounds Awesome!

The 7D would be a great 2nd body for what you want to do. It has the reach, and a very good AF system. I've shot some skiers coming at me in the middle of the mountain, so I didn't need the reach that you're talking about, such as shooting form the bottom of the hill or helicopter. But, one thing that I would add, is that when you're shooting from that far away, the AF system should have time to focus, as opposed to shooting "on the mountain" and having a ski racer busting by a gate.

With a zoom, you will have a greater oppurtunity to shoot the skiers for a longer period of time. First you'll zoom in all the way and as the skiers approach you, you will zoom out to get more shots as you keep them in your viewfinder longer.

With a long fixed lens, you will have the skier in and out of your FOV fairly quickly, unless of course you're shooting for the purpose of a particular jump or drop-off.

Actually, the 200-400mm [email protected] would be perfect for this. However, it's not out yet and I'm sure it will be very expensive. The other choices I would consider would be the 100-400mm, or the 70-200mm with 2X as you mentioned. The 70-200mm is better at the shorter end and the 100-400 is better at 400mm.
The AF is probably faster on the 100-400 since it doesn't have the extender. I don't own the 100-400, but I do own the 70-200 II and 2X. Like I mentioned above, if you're that far away from the skiers (bottom of hill or helicopter), then I don't think the slower AF with the 2X will matter. I will add that IS may help in the helicopter, although I'm not sure, as I've never shot out of a helicopter before.

I probably wouldn't buy the 100-400 just for this if you already own the 70-200+2x (probably better weather-sealed), since they're fairly close enough. I would consider a 100-400II if that ever comes out.

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=687&Camera=453&Sample=0&FLI=7&API=2&LensComp=113&CameraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=7&APIComp=0

I'll see if I have any 70-200mm II +2X action shots when I get home tonight.

Rich


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## Skulker (Aug 14, 2012)

I have the 7D and the 70-200mm Mk2, and a 2x MK111.

I would not normally use those three together. It wont be that fast focusing. In fact shooting bikes on the IoM at the TT I would prefocus and take the shot when the bike got there. For snowboarders I think the 7D and the 70-200 would be good. Its a pretty fast, bright, sharp combination.

I also have a 1Dx and understand the 5D111 is pretty good on auto focus etc. My first choice from your kit for snowboarders would be the 5D with the 70-200 and if you can't get close stick the 2X on as well. I find I can crop much harder on the FF and still get better results than I would with the 7D. Dont think the 7D is poor, but its not the same as the next generation.

Hope this helps.


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## Halfrack (Aug 14, 2012)

Nate said:


> so it still remains the first option...
> 
> Thanks for the information


Don't worry too much - helicopter time is more expensive. If you can swing it, there is/will be a lot of the 400/500/600mm lenses for sale used. Otherwise do what everyone else does, rent and build in the cost.

Besides, this winter is supposed to be crap on the pow...


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## Wilmark (Aug 14, 2012)

Avoid the 2X TC with any long and fast focusing application. The 2X TC degrades the autofocus speed by about 75%. And further you will take the F stop to 8 and then newer cams wont focus. The best is to use the 1.5X TC if you have to. Cater for this with what you max FL is going to be. The IQ with the 1.5x is far superior as well.


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## Nate (Aug 14, 2012)

Skulker said:


> I have the 7D and the 70-200mm Mk2, and a 2x MK111.
> 
> I would not normally use those three together. It wont be that fast focusing. In fact shooting bikes on the IoM at the TT I would prefocus and take the shot when the bike got there. For snowboarders I think the 7D and the 70-200 would be good. Its a pretty fast, bright, sharp combination.
> 
> ...



Can I get a sample with the 7D 70-200 2xTC? I am interested in how bad is the IQ compared to w/o TC


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## Nate (Aug 14, 2012)

Richard Lane said:


> Nate, That Sounds Awesome!
> 
> The 7D would be a great 2nd body for what you want to do. It has the reach, and a very good AF system. I've shot some skiers coming at me in the middle of the mountain, so I didn't need the reach that you're talking about, such as shooting form the bottom of the hill or helicopter. But, one thing that I would add, is that when you're shooting from that far away, the AF system should have time to focus, as opposed to shooting "on the mountain" and having a ski racer busting by a gate.
> 
> ...



Thanks! That was informative.
I dont want to spend too much money, thats why I would prefer buying a body with TC not a lens is because I want to have a second body (besides my 5D3) just in case.

Did you shot with the TC in the snow? if yes did it had a hard time focusing in almost 0 contrast?

I am looking forward for your samples.


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## Nate (Aug 14, 2012)

Also thanks so far for the other replays!


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## TexPhoto (Aug 14, 2012)

I have a 7D and 5D3. I think they make a really nice combination (as did the 7D and 5D2). I was always impressed with the 7D for sports. A few months back my 7D broke, and while it was off for repairs, I got a great deal on a slightly used 1D4. It's great, but not so much better than my 7D that I understand the price difference. Now that my 7D is back, my 1D4 will head off to eBay.


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## dhofmann (Aug 15, 2012)

Here are some photos taken with the T2i (similar sensor as the 7D) + 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM + 2x TC II (not III). The "original size" is pixel for pixel but cropped.


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## Richard Lane (Aug 15, 2012)

Nate said:


> Thanks! That was informative.
> I dont want to spend too much money, thats why I would prefer buying a body with TC not a lens is because I want to have a second body (besides my 5D3) just in case.
> 
> Did you shot with the TC in the snow? if yes did it had a hard time focusing in almost 0 contrast?
> ...



Nate, I just looked through my shots and you're going to be disappointed as they're all with the MKIV and 300 f/2.8L IS +1.4x or 2X, and my 7D shots are with the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II +1.4X.

I will tell you that you do lose some IQ with the 2X as previously stated, and it does slow down the AF by 75% according to Canon. I would not recommend it for fast action that will zoom by you, like downhill skiing, slalom or boarder-cross as that would be too aggressive for this combination, however your usage sounds like powder skiing from far away with the subject coming towards you, and not zooming by. That's why I'm saying that I think it could handle it. 

Do you already own the 70-200mm II? I would definitely recommend the 7D for a backup crop body for sports. The 100-400mm is a possibility too, especially @400mm. Renting both lenses may also be a good idea. I've seen some great shots of the Blue Angles with the 100-400mm from Air Shows, with a low contrast background and it performs admirably.

The Skiing shots I had were with the 1D-MKIV and bare 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II and I didn't have any problem with the low contrast snow because I was able to focus on their ski jacket.

Sorry Nate, as I know that this is not what you're looking for, but all I found were some test shots with the 7D and 70-200mm II and 2X, below. 

All with the 7D:
The 1st image is with the bare 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II @200mm f/9 
The 2nd image is with 2X @400mm f/9
The 3rd is with 2X @400mm f/5.6
The 4th is with 2X @400mm f/5.6

Rich


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 15, 2012)

TexPhoto said:


> I have a 7D and 5D3. I think they make a really nice combination (as did the 7D and 5D2). I was always impressed with the 7D for sports. A few months back my 7D broke, and while it was off for repairs, I got a great deal on a slightly used 1D4. It's great, but not so much better than my 7D that I understand the price difference. Now that my 7D is back, my 1D4 will head off to eBay.



There's actually a HUGE difference between the 1D4 and 7D for sports. You have to know the settings. If you do, you'll understand the price difference. Not to mention IQ differences.


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## Nate (Aug 15, 2012)

Richard Lane said:


> Nate, I just looked through my shots and you're going to be disappointed as they're all with the MKIV and 300 f/2.8L IS +1.4x or 2X, and my 7D shots are with the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II +1.4X.
> 
> I will tell you that you do lose some IQ with the 2X as previously stated, and it does slow down the AF by 75% according to Canon. I would not recommend it for fast action that will zoom by you, like downhill skiing, slalom or boarder-cross as that would be too aggressive for this combination, however your usage sounds like powder skiing from far away with the subject coming towards you, and not zooming by. That's why I'm saying that I think it could handle it.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I was also interested in IQ and at f/9 the IQ is pretty good. I didn't expect it to be as good.

Yes I own the 70-200 and I dont want to buy another zoom lens for the moment. I live in Hungary where I dont have a big variety of lens renting.

So I think I stick to a 2nd body.
1DIV is out of my budget but 1DIII is the same price as the 7D...Is the 1D that much better?
The only problem is, that I carry most of the things with me. Usually 3 lenses 2 flashes 1 tripod and some accessories. The reason is that usually I always need the lens that I left home...So the only thing that I dont like is that the 1D weights twice as much as the 7D.


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## Skulker (Aug 15, 2012)

Nate said:


> Can I get a sample with the 7D 70-200 2xTC? I am interested in how bad is the IQ compared to w/o TC



There may be two attached, its the first time I've tried an attachment so maybe not?

I've had to reduce the Jpeg quality to get them on here, but you should see the basic quality I have been achiving with this combination. You may well be able to do better.

Edit

to say the full size files dont really bear pixel peeking, but they are pretty much as shot, I thought this would be what you wanted, and they are 100% crops

and the birdy is 1/125 @ f6.3, iso 1000, 400mm and was used by the BBC on about 7 pages of its website. 

The little Badger is 1/640 @ f7.1, iso500 , 400mm and has never been seen in public.


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## Richard Lane (Aug 16, 2012)

Nate said:


> Thanks, I was also interested in IQ and at f/9 the IQ is pretty good. I didn't expect it to be as good.
> 
> Yes I own the 70-200 and I dont want to buy another zoom lens for the moment. I live in Hungary where I dont have a big variety of lens renting.
> 
> ...



I don't have the 1DMIII, but some people prefer it over the 7D. I can say that the MKIV is definitely a step up from the 7D. 

In my opinion: Lets say that I rated the 1DX to be the best right now with a 10 out of a 10 rating. 
The MKIV would equal 9 out of 10.
The MKIII would be an 8 out of 10.
The 7D would be a 7.5 out of 10.

1D-MKIII (1155g): 1.3X crop, only 10MP, 10fps, Pro-body, better weather-sealing, heavier.
7D (820g): 1.6X crop, 18MP, 8fps, Pro-consumer, lighter, Video, pop-up flash

Personally, I would go for the 7D due to the longer crop factor and higher resolution 18MP.

When using the 1.4X extender try to stop-down 1 extra stop if possible to f/5.6
When using the 2X extender try to stop down 2/3 extra-stop if possible to f/7.1
The Diffraction Limited Aperture (DLA) on the 7D is f/7

At 100 meters, your DOF on the 7D @400mm will be 17m, which will be pretty good to keep your skiers in focus.

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Rich


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## Nate (Aug 16, 2012)

Thank you for the replays and thank you guys for the sampels!

I think I will go then with a 7D.

My last question is. 
Which has better IQ the 7D+70-200+1.4 TC III or the 5D3+70-200+2 TC III?
How much faster would be the auto focus for the 7D setup?


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## heptagon (Aug 16, 2012)

Nate said:


> Which has better IQ the 7D+70-200+1.4 TC III or the 5D3+70-200+2 TC III?
> How much faster would be the auto focus for the 7D setup?


The 7D has a higher pixel density and the 1.4 TC has better contrast and higher F-stop, so that would mean sharper pictures. I don't know about noise though but i guess after all it will be better than the 5D setup.

Focusing with the 1.4x should take two times as long as without TC and with the 2x it should take four times as long. (from heresay) I have never seen actual measurements on that though. Both setups still might be fast enough for you. If you can pre-focus it's no big issue but if you need focusing shot for shot in a series it might be just too slow.


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