# BCN Rankings Are Out, Canon Continues to Dominate DSLRs, Further Growth in Mirrorless



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 16, 2018)

```
BCN have release their rankings for 2017. These numbers represent about 50% of all Japanese camera retailers, so the numbers do come from a long sample. These numbers do not reflect sales in the rest of Asia, Europe or North America.</p>
<p><!--more--></p>
<p><strong>Digital camera (Compact)</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>Canon 27.9%</li>
<li>Nikon 25.5%</li>
<li>Casio 17.2%</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>Digital camera (DSLR)</strong></p>


<ul>
<li>Canon 61.1%</li>
<li>Nikon 34.4%</li>
<li>Ricoh/Pentax 4.2%</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>Digital Camera (Mirrorless)</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>Olympus 27.7%</li>
<li>Canon 21.3%</li>
<li>Sony 20.2%</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>Interchangeable Lenses</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>Canon 21.9%</li>
<li>Sigma 16.2%</li>
<li>Tamron 13.7%</li>
</ul>
<p>I’m surprised to see Nikon fall out of the top 3 in the Interchangeable Lens category. Sigma and Tamron must be doing a lot right.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## canonnews (Jan 16, 2018)

some analysis we did on the subject for your viewers reading pleasure.. 

We are going to break down the two interchangable lens camera rankings a bit further to show some trends and drill a little deeper into the data than the overall summary report.

I find the mirrorless marketshare over time to be an interesting chart because you see what the newer entries of Nikon, Canon and Fuji did to the mirrorless marketshare post 2011.







In 2011, the big three companies were really the only three, with the three of them taking up 97.9% of the market. 

However In 2012, we can see the impact immediately as the top three only held 73.2% of the market, with the remaining going to other mirrorless companies (Fuji, Canon and Nikon as all three entered the market)

Pansonic being the significant surprise as it bled marketshare from it's high in 2011 of 29.1% to falling completely out of the top 3 in 2015. (To be fair, Panasonic could be keeping it's ~11% marketshare consistently as a #4 place finisher and we'd never know it).

Canon is the relative newcomer in the two three going from less than 11.9% in 2015 to 21.3% this last year. Looking at 2014 onwards, that's the most significant growth of any of the top three mirrorless manufacturers selling in Japan.

What's more surprising about the results from last year is that Canon managed to gain from the year prior (2016 results). They weren't supposed to. The other manufacturers had shortages throughout the year because of the Sony fabrication issues caused by the Kumamoto earthquake. This year was supposed to be a rebound year, and anyone betting would have easily put Canon down to #3. The fact that Canon gained marketshare against it's competitors who this year didn't have supply problems should start to worry other mirrorless manufacturers.

If the mirrorless market looks something mixed up and confusing, the DSLR trend is downright great if you are Canon. Not so much for anyone else.






Canon here takes it's marketshare from a 2011 low of 46.3% to a high of 63.3% in 2016 in a earthquake year to a still overly dominant 61.1% this past year.

This is the trend that was expected for mirrorless with Canon taking a slight step back this year in both DSLR and Mirrorless marketshares. Nikon makes a bit of a rebound this year, but the trendline still doesn't look that rosey for the black and yellow team.

As you can see from the above graph, Sony went from modest sales to basically being non-existant (the last two years having .3% each year), while Pentax maintains a pretty constant sales throughout the reported years.

I should also mention, even though BCN only covers Japan. Asia is still the dominant force behind mirrorless, and Japan is the per capita global leader in camera sales.


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## Woody (Jan 16, 2018)

I will love to see how Nikon tackles the mirrorless market in 2018. Thom Hogan is predicting an all-out effort from Nikon to win new market shares.

Will 2018 be the year of FF mirrorless from Canon... finally?


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 16, 2018)

canonnews said:


> some analysis we did on the subject for your viewers reading pleasure..



Nice graphs. One question: given that we are only 16 days into 2018, how are you deriving your sales figures for the current year? Clairvoyance? Expert prognostication? Magic? 


Presumably you are labeling based on the year the rankings came out, but it would be more appropriate and less confusing to label the columns with the year to which the rankings apply. Also, if you don't mind one additional minor critique, it's helpful to keep the same associations between manufacture and color across the graphs.


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## docsmith (Jan 16, 2018)

I expect this thread and these numbers to be referenced about 1 million times in response to any negative statement about Canon....especially Canon's mirrorless system....

Probably what shocks me the most is Sony. Even in compact sales...where is the RX100???? Casio beat them???


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## canonnews (Jan 16, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> canonnews said:
> 
> 
> > some analysis we did on the subject for your viewers reading pleasure..
> ...



all good points and you're right; BCN confuses issues by calling last year results 2018.

all updated now


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 16, 2018)

docsmith said:


> I expect this thread and these numbers to be referenced about 1 million times in response to any negative statement about Canon....especially Canon's mirrorless system....
> 
> Probably what shocks me the most is Sony. Even in compact sales...where is the RX100???? Casio beat them???



Yeah, really drives home the point that Canon is *******, and also highlights the fact that they absolutely must release a FF MILC immediately or else they won't gain a foothold in the mirrorless market…


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## canonnews (Jan 16, 2018)

docsmith said:


> I expect this thread and these numbers to be referenced about 1 million times in response to any negative statement about Canon....especially Canon's mirrorless system



1 million is pretty conservative


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## canonnews (Jan 16, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> docsmith said:
> 
> 
> > I expect this thread and these numbers to be referenced about 1 million times in response to any negative statement about Canon....especially Canon's mirrorless system....
> ...



Canon's results this year is probably worrying more than a few mirrorless companies. They gained last year from 2016, even though in 2016 they had a distinct unfair advantage of not being effected by the earthquake.

last year, was no such excuse for the heavyweights of mirrorless, and Canon still outgrew them all (2.8% versus Sony's 2.3 and Olympus .9%)

Canon however did miss their target, they wanted to be #1 domestically last year, and they certainly failed in that regard.

That and with Nikon supposedly getting in heavy with DX and FX mirrorless this year is bound to light a fire underneath Canon's posterior.


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## ritholtz (Jan 16, 2018)

docsmith said:


> I expect this thread and these numbers to be *referenced about 1 million times i*n response to any negative statement about Canon....especially Canon's mirrorless system....
> 
> Probably what shocks me the most is Sony. Even in compact sales...where is the RX100???? Casio beat them???


DSLR market share growth from 2011 low of 46.3% to a high of 63.3% in 2017, is more shocking than mirrorless growth. I think with those cute little M's, Canon is going to replicate DSLR dominance in mirroless segment. Canon just seems to know what market wants. I would say they earned these references more than references from gold award reviewers without market knowledge.


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## docsmith (Jan 16, 2018)

ritholtz said:


> docsmith said:
> 
> 
> > I expect this thread and these numbers to be *referenced about 1 million times i*n response to any negative statement about Canon....especially Canon's mirrorless system....
> ...



Yeah. It has really become about Canon vs Nikon by 2017. However, looking at the numbers, Nikon has only slipped 5-8% or about 15-20% decline. But Canon has taken almost all of the market share from Pentax and Sony in the DSLR sector. 

As for the M series, the original M wasn't great. But after the M3, really they are very nice cameras.


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## Talys (Jan 16, 2018)

*******. Canon is surely ******* because they're way too focused on making stuff that people buy.

I'm actually really surprised that that Sigma and Tamron both outsell Nikon for lenses -- I would not have guessed. Not that I'm a huge fan of Nikon lenses; back when I was a Nikon shooter, it was Canon lens envy, and colors back when it was a lot harder to adjust in post, that drove me to switch and never look back.

Also: Canon is taking a pretty impressive chunk of the mirrorless business.


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## ahsanford (Jan 16, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> docsmith said:
> 
> 
> > I expect this thread and these numbers to be referenced about 1 million times in response to any negative statement about Canon....especially Canon's mirrorless system....
> ...


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## SkynetTX (Jan 16, 2018)

The image on the homepage says Mirror-less SLR category that is pretty funny since SLR stands for Single Lens Reflex and therefore must have a mirror.  Probably MILC category could have been better.


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## vangelismm (Jan 16, 2018)

Canon can take de mirrorless marketing anytime they want.
Just look at this numbers without a "Pro" mirrorless.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 16, 2018)

Canon has a sales network that allows them to put any new camera they introduce in front of more buyers than any other brand, so instant success is almost guaranteed for a major new model. Nikon is slipping in that area, but also strong. I think that some retailers resent Sony's super strict price control policies that keep sales numbers down. They seem to be getting good exposure, but are not displayed in the most prominent locations at the pro level stores near me.

All of that is related to sales figures, its impossible to tell which came first, but as long as Canon does not introduce a lemon and keeps their reputation for customer service, they are going to be on top.

Those factors are more important than the technical differences that generally affect only 0.1% of the photographers.


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## rsdofny (Jan 16, 2018)

Are these numbers unit sales or sales revenue? If by unit sales, the number can be biased by lower end camera. I just can't imagine why Canon is above Sony in the mirrorless market. If by sales revenue, Sony may have to lower the price. 






Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Canon has a sales network that allows them to put any new camera they introduce in front of more buyers than any other brand, so instant success is almost guaranteed for a major new model. Nikon is slipping in that area, but also strong. I think that some retailers resent Sony's super strict price control policies that keep sales numbers down. They seem to be getting good exposure, but are not displayed in the most prominent locations at the pro level stores near me.
> 
> All of that is related to sales figures, its impossible to tell which came first, but as long as Canon does not introduce a lemon and keeps their reputation for customer service, they are going to be on top.
> 
> Those factors are more important than the technical differences that generally affect only 0.1% of the photographers.


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## IglooEater (Jan 16, 2018)

I wonder how representative these figures are for the rest of the world.. I guess there’s not a way to know for sure.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 16, 2018)

rsdofny said:


> I just can't imagine why Canon is above Sony in the mirrorless market.



Why not?


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## ritholtz (Jan 16, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Canon has a sales network that allows them to put any new camera they introduce in front of more buyers than any other brand, so instant success is almost guaranteed for a major new model. Nikon is slipping in that area, but also strong. I think that some retailers resent Sony's super strict price control policies that keep sales numbers down. They seem to be getting good exposure, but are not displayed in the most prominent locations at the pro level stores near me.
> 
> All of that is related to sales figures, its impossible to tell which came first, but as long as Canon does not introduce a lemon and keeps their reputation for customer service, they are going to be on top.
> 
> Those factors are more important than the technical differences that generally affect only 0.1% of the photographers.


I have visited few best buy stores in area during holiday season. Canon filled BB with all M models. They took center stage in display. It reminded me of Samsung LCD push in the stores.


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## ahsanford (Jan 16, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> rsdofny said:
> 
> 
> > I just can't imagine why Canon is above Sony in the mirrorless market.
> ...



+1 to Neuro.

Canon simply has to show up with something 80-90% as good as the competition in the sexy horsepower specs (MP, fps, AF points, etc.), talk about working well natively with the EF portfolio, deliver Canon ergonomics and quality and their products will sell well.

Why? Give a gander to Mt Spokane's post on top of this page. If everything else is best in class other than a few lines on a spec sheet or a 10% lower DXOMark score, Canon will be printing money off of that product.

- A


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## rrcphoto (Jan 16, 2018)

rsdofny said:


> Are these numbers unit sales or sales revenue? If by unit sales, the number can be biased by lower end camera. I just can't imagine why Canon is above Sony in the mirrorless market.



why not? the M5 and M6 are all very credible cameras that can be used in a variety of ways for the general public. ergonomically the M5 is certainly superior to Sony's A6xxx and A5100 bodies.


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## Cochese (Jan 16, 2018)

docsmith said:


> I expect this thread and these numbers to be referenced about 1 million times in response to any negative statement about Canon....especially Canon's mirrorless system....
> 
> Probably what shocks me the most is Sony. Even in compact sales...where is the RX100???? Casio beat them???



Sony is lost in the land of over-pricing out of the market.


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## ritholtz (Jan 16, 2018)

Cochese said:


> docsmith said:
> 
> 
> > I expect this thread and these numbers to be referenced about 1 million times in response to any negative statement about Canon....especially Canon's mirrorless system....
> ...


There was something going on with their NEX series. They are missing big time on their early mover advantage.


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## unfocused (Jan 16, 2018)

Several good points have been made, but one that seems to get lost is how insignificant full-frame sales are.

Canon has slid into the No. 2 spot without a full-frame offering. The No. 1 spot is held by Olympus with the 4/3rds sensor. 

We get awfully caught up here in the idea that somehow full-frame cameras are the end-all be-all and that Canon must offer a full-frame mirrorless to compete, when the reality is that full frame is unlikely to have much impact in the overall mirrorless marketplace.


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## Sharlin (Jan 16, 2018)

rsdofny said:


> Are these numbers unit sales or sales revenue? If by unit sales, the number can be biased by lower end camera.



Low-end cameras are the moneymakers. Anything above that is a nice bonus. Higher-end bodies may well have _narrower_ profit margins. So if anything, those are _unbiased_ numbers, compared to the implicit "only enthusiast bodies matter" bias that's prevalent among the "Canon is *******" crowd.


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## ritholtz (Jan 16, 2018)

There is nothing on DPR. It is a bad news for Sony.


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## BroncosFan (Jan 16, 2018)

Dammit!!! Another year of not getting what we want!!!


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## KeithBreazeal (Jan 16, 2018)

Sony- good cameras but over priced?
If Sony lowered their prices, do they have the production line capability to sustain market demand?
Sony screwed up big time in the past with Beta video. They didn't licence the format and kept the prices high, resulting in VHS machines taking over the market share. VHS sucked compared to Beta but pricing drove the market despite lower quality, resulting in the demise of consumer Beta. The broadcast market was dominated by the Beta-Cam format for many years, resulting in Sony making a good profit.


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## okaro (Jan 16, 2018)

docsmith said:


> I expect this thread and these numbers to be referenced about 1 million times in response to any negative statement about Canon....especially Canon's mirrorless system....
> 
> Probably what shocks me the most is Sony. Even in compact sales...where is the RX100???? Casio beat them???



Casio has compact cameras with very wide 19-95 mm equivalence lenses. That may be a reason.

http://www.casio-intl.com/asia/en/dc/products/ex_zr5100/spec/


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## AshtonNekolah (Jan 16, 2018)

Thats good news congrads canon.


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## docsmith (Jan 16, 2018)

unfocused said:


> Several good points have been made, but one that seems to get lost is how insignificant full-frame sales are.



Thom Hogan has estimated that Nikon DX:FX ratio of 5:1, or 16.7% of Nikon sales were FX (2012-2015). Granted, he was arguing that the lack of D500 helped FX sales, but let's just use those numbers. Using those numbers and illustrating the impact of the massive price differences (taken from Amazon today), if all Nikon sold were the D3300 at $400 with lens and the D750 for $1,800 without lens at the 5:1 ratio Nikon's revenue would be 52.5% DX to 47.5% FX. Or, if I were to guess, if Canon's avg APS-C body was $600 and avg FF body was $3,000 and say canon is 10% FF that would still be 64% APS-C vs 36% FF from a revenue perspective. Still pretty significant.

But, also not yet mentioned, both Sigma and Tamron sell more lenses than Nikon (yikes) and are within 5% of Canon. I am definitely surprised by that.

Re-Nikon....yikes.


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## Woody (Jan 16, 2018)

canonnews said:


> last year, was no such excuse for the heavyweights of mirrorless, and Canon still outgrew them all (2.8% versus Sony's 2.3 and Olympus .9%)
> 
> Canon however did miss their target, they wanted to be #1 domestically last year, and they certainly failed in that regard.



To unseat Olympus, Canon ought to release more EF-M lenses...


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## Talys (Jan 16, 2018)

unfocused said:


> Several good points have been made, but one that seems to get lost is how insignificant full-frame sales are.
> 
> Canon has slid into the No. 2 spot without a full-frame offering. The No. 1 spot is held by Olympus with the 4/3rds sensor.



That's actually not reading the data correctly. In mirrorless, Canon didn't make top 3 in 2014. 

In 2015, at 11.9% it made #3, edging out Panasonic, and with Sony owning more than twice as much market share.

In 2016, Canon about doubled its mirrorless sales, overtaking Sony for the #2 spot and stealing marketshare from both Olympus and Sony

In 2017, Sony and Canon grew their marketshare about equally, at the expense of non-top-3 brands. Olympus sales didn't change much.

The easiest way to visualize it is the chart on page 1 -
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=34268.msg702925#msg702925


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## rrcphoto (Jan 16, 2018)

Woody said:


> canonnews said:
> 
> 
> > last year, was no such excuse for the heavyweights of mirrorless, and Canon still outgrew them all (2.8% versus Sony's 2.3 and Olympus .9%)
> ...


they would also have to release a few more cheap camera bodies and go real cutthroat on pricing.

The M100 and M10 may be poised for such a move - however Olympus sells the older PENs with lens kits that are hard to beat really.

Sony has been doing the same with the A5100 and A6000.

but canon certainly has to get off it's posterior with the lenses for the M - to at least give the right perception and still work on the cameras, they are good, but they certainly aren't close to best in class.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 16, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> but canon certainly has to get off it's posterior with the lenses for the M - to at least give the right perception and still work on the cameras, they are good, but they certainly aren't close to best in class.



Which sells more, best in class or good and less expensive?


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## Don Haines (Jan 16, 2018)

Woody said:


> canonnews said:
> 
> 
> > last year, was no such excuse for the heavyweights of mirrorless, and Canon still outgrew them all (2.8% versus Sony's 2.3 and Olympus .9%)
> ...



Yes! Olympus even has three F1.2 lenses! , a 300F4, and a 40-150 F2.8 lens.... 25 lenses compared to Canon’s 6!


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## Don Haines (Jan 16, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > but canon certainly has to get off it's posterior with the lenses for the M - to at least give the right perception and still work on the cameras, they are good, but they certainly aren't close to best in class.
> ...



Usually less expensive.... I understand that in Canon land the T6i outsells the 1DX2 

Of course, the flagship Oly mirrorless is twice the price of the flagship Canon mirrorless, and has far better features, but I bet the Canon outsells it..... I an led to believe that the bulk of Oly sales are the very low cost Pen cameras....


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## ahsanford (Jan 16, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> but canon certainly has to get off it's posterior with the lenses for the M - to at least give the right perception and still work on the cameras, they are good, but they certainly aren't close to best in class.



As much as we all want EF-M to get some serious glass added to its arsenal, how EF-S has evolved in the last 10 years tells us all we need to know. Just taking a stab at making a point from the *2007-2017 EF-S lenses launched*, according to a skim of EFLens.com:

*General quality*

"L build-quality" lenses: 0
Weathersealed lenses: I believe the answer is 0, someone please correct me if not so

*Focusing
*
Ring USM lenses: 1
Nano USM lenses: 1
STM lenses: 7
Old micromotor (no AF tech in the name) lenses: 7
*
Speed*

Constant aperture zooms: 0
Zooms with a long end faster than f/5.6: 0
Primes faster than f/2.8: 0

...and I think that really says it all. Canon has zoomed in on the target demo for crop cameras, and "want it not EF big" and "but it had better be fast"* is not populated by enough people, or we'd have seen a 17-55 2.8 IS USM refresh, a 10-22 USM refresh, a 15-85 refresh USM, etc. by now. 

*Fuji, on the other hand, absolutely _lives_ in this space, and look where it got them -- see how they did in the rankings above. 

- A


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## Don Haines (Jan 16, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > but canon certainly has to get off it's posterior with the lenses for the M - to at least give the right perception and still work on the cameras, they are good, but they certainly aren't close to best in class.
> ...



Yes!

Canon has done surveys and they have access to marketing data that we forum users do not. They undoubtedly have a much better picture of the market than we do... 

Personally, if I were to get an M camera, it would be for the small size and my likelihood of getting large lenses would be very small..... I probably would get the 15-45 F6.3 and the 55-200.... or go single lens with the 18-150..... 

It would be nice to have one wide/fast lens and eventually they will/might come out with one.... hmmmmm.... Mitakon 35mm at F0.95? One of the second party F1.2 or F1.4s? Or that 4.5X macro lens?


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## ahsanford (Jan 16, 2018)

And I'm also curious, how many people shooting EOS M and asking for faster lenses _also own an FF rig with fast glass?_

I'm not implying the need for speed in crop is not warranted or anything, but it's possible a good chunk of people asking for it (myself included) are simply moonlighting in crop because FF mirrorless doesn't exist for us yet.

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 17, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Personally, if I were to get an M camera, it would be for the small size and my likelihood of getting large lenses would be very small.....



That's why I got an EOS M (then an M2, then an M6). It helps if you already have those large lenses, at least philosophically...I only use EF-M lenses on my M's, but the idea that I have a small backup camera at the minimal impact of bringing the mount adapter on a trip is comforting. 




Don Haines said:


> Canon has done surveys and they have access to marketing data that we forum users do not. They undoubtedly have a much better picture of the market than we do...



Lies. Lies and fanboi propaganda. Canon needs to make the specific products I demand in my forum posts, or they're *******. After all, there are millions of people out there who want exactly what I want. Maybe even billions. 
—CameraDialGuy


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## KeithBreazeal (Jan 17, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> And I'm also curious, how many people shooting EOS M and asking for faster lenses _also own an FF rig with fast glass?_
> 
> I'm not implying the need for speed in crop is not warranted or anything, but it's possible a good chunk of people asking for it (myself included) are simply moonlighting in crop because FF mirrorless doesn't exist for us yet.
> 
> - A



I bought the M5 and really enjoy using it. I bought a few M lenses and the EF adapter. I would jump on a FF mirrorless in a heartbeat. Something along the 5D mark IV body would be nice.
I have some fast glass hanging around. The Sigma 14mm f1.8 Art is the speed winner so far.



Camera back pack Nov 2017 © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr



Canon EOS M5 Canon 300L f2.8 Canon 2X Converter © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr


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## AvTvM (Jan 17, 2018)

Canon did get a few things right with their initial mirrorless offering: 
APS-C for starters [not Nikon 1 dwarf sensor, not 4/3 mini sensor] 

and all Canon EOS-M/EF-M gear is 
1. affordable ... bodies below 1k or even "outright cheap" (lenses) 
2. all EOS M / EF-M products are "light and compact" to "ultra-light and -compact" 
3. IQ is decent to excellent, performance, user interface and build quality are "good enough" 
4. lens selection is smart and perfectly tailored to intended market ... people who don't want to lug around heavy gear, don't want to spend a fortune but still want decent IQ, performance and handling. Lenses cover entire frequently used focal range and anything that can be built small, light, decent IQ and affordable. f/1.2 clunkers .. not needed outside this forum. 

Canon is still stupid, because they waited so long ... they would have made even more of a killing had they launched EOS-M lineup with decent camera bodies from very start (instead of lame and overpriced original EOS M). They would have annihilated competition from start - Oly, Fuji, Sony. And they could have stopped production of those awful mirrorflicking Rebels 2 years ago already. Actually any APS-C DSLR except maybe 7D II. 

It is blind luck for Canon's that competitors were/are also acting "rather stupid":

* Fuji has an [arguably] slightly better APS-C mirrorless product line - cameras and especially lenses, BUT clunkier than EOS M, ugly retro design does not appeal to majority of today's buyers, and most importantly, most of the stuff is just way too costly to capture mass market. f/1.2 lenses, ha! Wonder how many they sold ... 

* Sony had/has no attractive and priceworthy offering of (APS-C) E-mount lenses and their A5.... / A6.... user interface plain sucks compared to Canon. And in addition Sony has raised prices well above Canon EOS-M / EF-M levels 

It is Canon's good luck, that Nikon also held on to mirrorslappers forever and Sony took a while to get product really right [A7 / II / III ] and then simply priced and sized themselves right out of the market. Gmaster monsta lenses at pricepoints well beyond Canon L territory ... a poor joke! tiny minority program. Maybe still profitable for Sony, but definitely not good for their overall market share. 

Mirrorless FF .. .similar story. Had Canon come out at the same time as Sony A7 with an attractive and well-priced FF mirrorless lineup, Sony would be even less anywhere than where they are now. 

And FF mirrorless will hinge on same success factors as mirrorless APS-C: small SIZE and small PRICE .... new short FFD mount ftw ... 8)


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## rrcphoto (Jan 17, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> And I'm also curious, how many people shooting EOS M and asking for faster lenses _also own an FF rig with fast glass?_
> 
> I'm not implying the need for speed in crop is not warranted or anything, but it's possible a good chunk of people asking for it (myself included) are simply moonlighting in crop because FF mirrorless doesn't exist for us yet.
> 
> - A



I'm perfectly happy with a 11-22, 18-150 travel combo with an M5. anything else is clutter. toss both lenses' RAW's into DLO and it's as good as it gets.

I have a samyang 12/2 for astro / low light landscape, and really I can't see me really desiring much else.


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## Hflm (Jan 17, 2018)

Cochese said:


> docsmith said:
> 
> 
> > I expect this thread and these numbers to be referenced about 1 million times in response to any negative statement about Canon....especially Canon's mirrorless system....
> ...


No, certainly not.
M5 is more expensive where I live than the A6000, with kit lens I get an A6300 with 4k for a similar price; 5div was 4100Euros (A7riii 3500 Euros) when introduced. A9 is 5300 Euros compared to 7000Euros for a D5, for example. So no, in general I think your claim to be wrong.


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## Hflm (Jan 17, 2018)

Talys said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Several good points have been made, but one that seems to get lost is how insignificant full-frame sales are.
> ...


We are talking about Japan only, right? I get the impression people think of world wide numbers, here.


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## Aglet (Jan 17, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Canon has a sales network that allows them to put any new camera they introduce in front of more buyers than any other brand, so instant success is almost guaranteed for a major new model. Nikon is slipping in that area, but also strong. I think that some retailers resent Sony's super strict price control policies that keep sales numbers down. They seem to be getting good exposure, but are not displayed in the most prominent locations at the pro level stores near me.
> 
> All of that is related to sales figures, its impossible to tell which came first, but as long as Canon does not introduce a lemon and keeps their reputation for customer service, they are going to be on top.
> 
> Those factors are more important than the technical differences that generally affect only 0.1% of the photographers.



That's it in a clamshell.
Make it "good enough" and keep it in their face often enough so that when they do think of buying something, that's what they remember and where they start looking.


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## Hflm (Jan 17, 2018)

Aglet said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Canon has a sales network that allows them to put any new camera they introduce in front of more buyers than any other brand, so instant success is almost guaranteed for a major new model. Nikon is slipping in that area, but also strong. I think that some retailers resent Sony's super strict price control policies that keep sales numbers down. They seem to be getting good exposure, but are not displayed in the most prominent locations at the pro level stores near me.
> ...


Disagree. In Germany all the stores I go to have prominent Sony sections by now. Even Media Markt and Saturn (comparable to Best Buy) prominently display Sony. This is only a more recent thing, however. Just a few years back, it was all Canon and Nikon, with a bit of Olympus. Sony began to become more prominently displayed after that over the last say 3 years.
All clerks I talked to say Sony sales are strongly on the rise now, with more and more pros switching or adding A7riiii or A9, for example (pro stores like Calument, Foto Gregor, Lambertin, Koch, Sauter etc.). I can't talk of all stores, of course, just wanted to add a further data point.
All Canon needs to do is keeping up the momentum. They have the brand name and esp. accessories. It will nevertheless be interesting how an introduction of a Canon/Nikon FF mirrorless will change the perception of DSLRs and how much cannibalisation is happening.


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## okaro (Jan 17, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> ...and I think that really says it all. Canon has zoomed in on the target demo for crop cameras, and "want it not EF big" and "but it had better be fast"* is not populated by enough people, or we'd have seen a 17-55 2.8 IS USM refresh, a 10-22 USM refresh, a 15-85 refresh USM, etc. by now.
> 
> *Fuji, on the other hand, absolutely _lives_ in this space, and look where it got them -- see how they did in the rankings above.
> 
> - A



There are two (with huge simplification) two kinds of EF-S users. Those who use entry level cameras and more advanced ones. The entry level users seldom buy lenses and if they do they want cheap ones. That means it makes no sense to create expensive top quality lenses for them. The advanced users are wiling to use more money. They would benefit from top quality EF-S lenses but that creates a problem for Canon. Canon does not want to lock those people to EF-S bodies. Canon wants them to move to FF bodies. For this reason Canon does not create top quality EF-S lenses. It may be that since Sigma has created them Canon has to respond in the future.

With EF-M there is a different matters. I think the size is there a major factor. People choose mirrorless cameras for their size. Also people might not want to carry several lenses. Therefore all EF-M lenses released so far with the exception of the 55-200 mm are general purpose lenses that you can use as general walk around lens.


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## BillB (Jan 17, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> rsdofny said:
> 
> 
> > Are these numbers unit sales or sales revenue? If by unit sales, the number can be biased by lower end camera. I just can't imagine why Canon is above Sony in the mirrorless market.
> ...




Are the M's the only Canon cameras included in the Mirrorless category, or are there any fixed lens mirrorless?


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## BillB (Jan 17, 2018)

docsmith said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Several good points have been made, but one that seems to get lost is how insignificant full-frame sales are.
> ...



The top 3 in lens sales account for just over 50% of total sales, so the difference between 3rd place and the next places is likely pretty small. Also, Sigma and Tamron sell a lot more Canon mount lenses than Nikon does. Canon's share of lens sales is a lot smaller than its share of DSLR sales. This is also be true of Nikon as well. More competition for lens sales, thanks to Sigma and Tamron. I wonder how things look in the North American market.


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## BillB (Jan 17, 2018)

Aglet said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Canon has a sales network that allows them to put any new camera they introduce in front of more buyers than any other brand, so instant success is almost guaranteed for a major new model. Nikon is slipping in that area, but also strong. I think that some retailers resent Sony's super strict price control policies that keep sales numbers down. They seem to be getting good exposure, but are not displayed in the most prominent locations at the pro level stores near me.
> ...



Another point is that satisfied customers lead to new customers. Some people talk to their friends and relatives before they buy a new camera, probably more than read spec sheets or hit Internet forums (or listen to Best Buy salesmen, for that matter). From Canon sales, it doesn't look like there are that many people bad mouthing Canon out in the real world.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 17, 2018)

BillB said:


> Are the M's the only Canon cameras included in the Mirrorless category, or are there any fixed lens mirrorless?



The category is mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras, for Canon that's only the M series.


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## Orangutan (Jan 17, 2018)

Aglet said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Canon has a sales network that allows them to put any new camera they introduce in front of more buyers than any other brand, so instant success is almost guaranteed for a major new model. Nikon is slipping in that area, but also strong. I think that some retailers resent Sony's super strict price control policies that keep sales numbers down. They seem to be getting good exposure, but are not displayed in the most prominent locations at the pro level stores near me.
> ...



If it were so simple, Sony, Nikon and the rest would do the same. How is Canon able to do this when those others are not? To this point, you have not provided good evidence that Canon's dominance is purely due to sales tactics.


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## docsmith (Jan 17, 2018)

Hflm said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...



I am a bit curious about this in the USA as well. I had a heckuva time even finding a store with the G7X II to test out when I was buying one. Best Buy seems to be favoring Sony. Each sales person I spoke with raved about Sony to the point I suspect it was orchestrated. Every store had Sony cameras usually displayed on endcaps (premium location usually paid for). While each store had a small set of Canon cameras, I had to track down the select stores that had the G7X II and M5. I tried other stores as well, but most just had lower end P&Ss if they had cameras at all.

"Camera stores," the few that still exist, still have Nikon/Canon, but Sony seems to be having equivalent foothold in the few I've been in recently. The Camera Store TV certainly pushes Nikon/Sony. 

So I am sure Canon has a great distribution network, but, at least what I've seen recently, Sony has tapped into some pretty major networks themselves.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 17, 2018)

Orangutan said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > That's it in a clamshell.
> ...



Well, you see...Aglet doesn't like Canon. And he thinks he's a smart guy. Therefore, anyone who buys Canon is part of the herd of consumer sheep that have been duped by the Canon marketing machine's propaganda. It couldn't possibly be that Canon's products actually meet people's needs, oh no, they don't meet his needs, and his needs are representative of most of the world. Therefore, Canon's dominance is just a contrived sham.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 17, 2018)

Hflm said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...



Germany has always had a strong sony presence for a while now. maybe due to their connection with Zeiss.

it's kind of a outlier, not to mention it's a small part of the european market. Asia specifically Japan is a bigger per capita market, not to mention the rest of Asia seems to follow the Japan lead when you break down what's been shipping and where.

Asia in total, is around 60% of the entire mirrorless market.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 17, 2018)

ritholtz said:


> There is nothing on DPR. It is a bad news for Sony.



funny thing, I sent dpr an email with the links to everything yesterday at around 9am est and even got a reply that they would look at it asap. apparently it's not newsworthy.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 17, 2018)

Orangutan said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...



Building up a distribution network world wide with stock, warehouses, repair facilities, customer service reps, salesmen is a gigantic investment. The smaller companies can't just drop a billion into all this and hope it works, they have to climb inch by inch. The last time I went into our small local pro camera store, they did not stock Sony, and said that Nikon was really difficult to work with and they make a profit of 5%. They do order Nikon high end products for you and have them in 3 days.

Obviously, big consumer stores like Best Buy sell lots of Sony. I don't recall ever seeing a Sony high end, or any for that matter, in Costco, thats because they do not allow discounts. Costco and Sams club sell zillions of cameras, so Sony is really missing out there. Its their sales policy rooted in the ancient past that is to blame.

Nikon and Canon offer a special package for Costco and Sams club that typically have some extras like dual lenses or a camera bag to differentiate it from the retail packages.


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## Talys (Jan 17, 2018)

BillB said:


> The top 3 in lens sales account for just over 50% of total sales, so the difference between 3rd place and the next places is likely pretty small. Also, Sigma and Tamron sell a lot more Canon mount lenses than Nikon does. Canon's share of lens sales is a lot smaller than its share of DSLR sales. This is also be true of Nikon as well. More competition for lens sales, thanks to Sigma and Tamron. I wonder how things look in the North American market.



Yeah, for sure. Fourth place will account for less than 13.7% of the marketplace, since that is Tamron  I suspect it must be Nikon, and Olympus and Sony, probably in that order. If you give those 3 an average of 8% each, you're at nearly at 80% of the market. 

I think you meant that Sigma and Tamron sell a lot more Canon mount lenses than they do Nikon mount lenses - the way you put it.. it sounds like Nikon is in the business of selling Canon mount lenses, but not doing a very good job of it 




Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Obviously, big consumer stores like Best Buy sell lots of Sony. I don't recall ever seeing a Sony high end, or any for that matter, in Costco, thats because they do not allow discounts. Costco and Sams club sell zillions of cameras, so Sony is really missing out there. Its their sales policy rooted in the ancient past that is to blame.



In our area, Best Buy sells last generation cameras for the bargain price of current generation cameras. On the shelves are cameras like 6D and 5D Mark III for absurdly expensive prices. For current generation product, the highest end product they have for Canon is the Rebel line. In display cases, a lot of the lenses are 

Of course, they tell you they can order anything in, but the reality of it is that they're not going to get many (if any) sales of high end stuff they don't keep on hand, when there are plenty of camera shops that do -- with cheaper online options if local inventory isn't important to you.

Costco around here mostly have mid-range APSC kits with a bunch of extra accessories. Like t7i with a couple of lenses, a spare battery, and bag for a thousand bucks. I don't think I've ever seen a body only, or kits that contain bodies in the $1k+ range.


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## KeithBreazeal (Jan 17, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > Aglet said:
> ...



+1
My precious Betamax story. Wouldn't budge and shot themselves in the foot.
My first DSLR was a Canon 40D kit from Costco, followed by me feeding all the employees at B&H.
Canon gets it with their customer service and recently expanded their capabilities. A recent study states that good customer service is 87% of your return business. That's huge.
I bought an M5 for a few reasons- mostly because I wanted a good "always with me" camera to keep the wear and tear down on the FF bodies. The other reason is my 7D has a lot of miles on it and I needed an APS-C body until Canon releases the 7D mark III. 
I really enjoy using the M5 and if Canon introduces a FF mirrorless in the 5D Mark IV form, I would jump on that and probably put off the APS-C upgrade. If FF is done right, it would be awesome.


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## goldenhusky (Jan 18, 2018)

Guess what? Canon fans got data now hence Canon do not have to innovate for next decade. To me this is a bitter sweet news. As a Canon user I am happy to see this but this also means Canon will not bother to add 4k video with H.265 compression in any camera in the near future. One hope is that *IF* (that is a BIG IF) canon releases a non cinema video oriented EF mount camera with 4k h.265 compression and 1080p high frame rate that will be helpful but IMO chances of that happening is very very slim. I have a feeling that the U.S market may be different from Asian markets. I am guess Sony's market share might be 3rd largest behind Canon and Nikon. But that is just my guess obviously no data to backup.


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## Orangutan (Jan 18, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > Aglet said:
> ...



Aglet seemed to be saying that Canon uses its position to bamboozle the consumer with marketing, and would otherwise fail. I believe I wrote something similar to the following several months ago on this same topic: I can't imagine a team of Sony (or Nikon) execs sitting around a conference table saying "let's not spend more on marketing to increase our market share and profits." If cranking up the marketing was cost-effective, they would find a way to do it. Marketing has diminishing returns, and it's the combination of product choice and support that seems to work for them. 

I can't say I'll always shoot Canon, I don't really have brand loyalty. So far, though, my gear does better photography than I do.


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## stevelee (Jan 18, 2018)

I think for consumers, the preference for VHS over Beta had to do with recording time. VHS had more tape in their bigger cases, and allowed for slower speed and lower quality options. Sony eventually added slower speed options, but VHS already had too much of a foothold. So many folks recorded soap operas, and it was nice to be able to record the whole week on a tape and watch it over the weekend; that sort of thing in terms of playing time. Higher video quality was not nearly so important.


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## Orangutan (Jan 18, 2018)

stevelee said:


> I think for consumers, the preference for VHS over Beta



And ridiculously high prices for the Beta recorders, compared to VHS. Sony refused to license, so there was no price competition.


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## stevelee (Jan 18, 2018)

I live about the same distance between two Best Buy stores. One has a more elaborate camera department, or at least did, since I haven't been to the other one in well over a year, so that is the store I go to now.

A year ago last fall I was thinking of buying an 80D and went to BB to look one over. I found knowledgeable and helpful sales persons. A couple of visits helped me decide to wait and go full frame. There was one guy in particular who was especially up on Canons. I went and talked with him shortly after the 6D2 came out, but they didn't have any yet. We did discuss pros and cons of what lens to get with it.

I went back when I was ready to buy. I had decided on the STM kit, which they didn't stock. So I tried out the camera with the L lens and put in a order for the camera in the STM kit. The salesman asked me to show him the camera and lens when I picked mine up. He put the battery from his own 6D in my new camera to try it out, and I took a few test shots in the store. 

That store also appeared to have decent Nikon and Sony sections, but I didn't pay any attention to them since I was there for a Canon. I hope their having about the equivalent of a camera store continues to work out for them and for the photographers who work there. I gather that this is not the norm for BB stores unless that has been a wider trend over the last year or so.

When I was ready to buy a G7X II before a trip, neither store had them in stock, so I ordered it from B&H, and that went well. I didn't need any local help, and I didn't have much time to wait for BB to start stocking them. As someone suggested earlier, they seemed more intent on getting rid of the G7X I before stocking the newer model.


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## stevelee (Jan 18, 2018)

Orangutan said:


> stevelee said:
> 
> 
> > I think for consumers, the preference for VHS over Beta
> ...



When I bought my Beta, I think the price differential was less than $30, so it seemed to make sense to get the higher quality machine. I'm not even sure that it was made by Sony (Hitachi maybe), so that they must have eventually started licensing. This was in the early 1980s, so the format war was probably already lost. When I moved to a more rural area in 1984, I was surprised to find that the video rental places didn't even have Beta tapes.


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## Talys (Jan 18, 2018)

Orangutan said:


> Aglet seemed to be saying that Canon uses its position to bamboozle the consumer with marketing, and would otherwise fail.



Canon has indeed bamboozled me, though not with marketing. Out of about 8 bodies that I've bought, 6-7 L lenses, 10+ non-L lenses, a few of P&S and non-interchangeable lens cameras, printers, and a whole bunch of accessories, not a single piece has had even the tiniest problem. 

The only Canon-related gear problem I've ever had an issue with are canon extenders + Sigma 150-600, which worked at for a long time and stopped working properly after Sigma did a firmware upgrade (spoiler: it works with Sigma extenders now, lol -- but I'm too cheap to buy an extender for ONE lens that's also f/6.3, especially since that extender doesn't work for most other Sigma lenses). But being the sucker that I am, I haven't blamed Canon 

So yeah, they've got me pretty much accepting as a fact that my _next_ bodies and lenses and accessories from them will be trouble-free, and just let me enjoy taking pictures of stuff. Neat trick they pulled on me.

I guess, also, over the years, they've also pretty much bamboozled me into thinking that I just have to shoot more, experiment, and learn, to get a just a little better each year, when really, it's not that at all. If I were more open minded, I'd accept that lighting and composition are myths. I'd run out and buy something that would let me toss out my flashes and strobes and softboxes and filters and gels and reflectors and grids and tripods -- Because all I should really need to do is just hold down the shutter button and turn everything into perfect photos in Lightroom.


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