# *UPDATE* 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 28, 2012)

```
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<strong>*UPDATE 2*

</strong>Another source highly doubts February 7, 2012 is the date for an announcement. All the little bits of information that are leaking say it’s close, but it may not be <em>that</em> close. <strong>Please do not treat February 7, 2012 as fact until I can [CR3] it.</strong></p>
<p><strong>*UPDATE*

</strong>Another source says it’s odd that Canon & Nikon would announce on the same day.  I have yet to see an actual invite to a press event for February 7, 2012. Good people are saying it’s coming that day, my gut is telling me otherwise. I do think the camera will be announced well before the 1D X ships.</p>
<p><strong>More mentions

</strong>A few more people have mentioned February 7, 2012 as the announcement date for the 5D Mark III. The sources are good, though I am waiting for the definitive word on the matter.</p>
<p>It’s mentioned that Canon will also announce new PowerShot cameras, a new Legria camcorder and Selphy printer(s).</p>
<p>Kevin Wang, based in Taiwan, posted on his Facebook wall that he will be <a href="http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1600286853">an official photographer </a>for the 5D Mark III. <em>(thanks Hansen)</em></p>
<p><strong>5D Mark III Specs

</strong>If I put together everything I have heard, these are the specs of the 5D Mark III.</p>
<ul>
<li>22mp</li>
<li>61pt AF</li>
<li>7.5fps (this I’ve only seen once)</li>
<li>DIGIC 5 </li>
<li>New Battery Grip with Joystick</li>
<li>GPS Ready</li>
</ul>
<p>No lenses were mentioned for the announcement date of the 5D Mark III. However, a solid source that reported the 24-70 f/2.8L II and 35 f/1.4L II a month or so ago, says both lenses will be shipping sometime in April. Lenses have always been the toughest to nail down.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## Fleetie (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*

I am still surprised by this 22MP figure. I really thought they'd use the 18MP sensor from the 1DX, or a variant of it.

Oh well, at least they're not going MP-insane; I'm in the ISO camp rather than the MP camp.

I'm cool with this. I can't afford one right yet, but I expect to be able to by the time the 5D3 is available to the public. Well, I could afford one right now but don't wanna raid my savings for it! That would be silly.

Yeah, I'll happily take a 5D3 with those specs.


Edit: I guess for a 3:2 aspect ratio, that makes ROUGHLY 5746 x 3828 pixels.


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## plam_1980 (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*

I am counting the days!!!


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## ski2slow (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*

Me too!
Can't wait to see if it really has the 61pt AF.


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## DenDen (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*

61pt AF like the 1DX??
I don't think that Canon will put the same AF in the 5D as the 1DX...


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## Mooose (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*



plam_1980 said:


> I am counting the days!!!



You could of at least posted the days to save us the trouble.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*

With those specs, I wonder at the price. Still, with those specs, it would be hard to justify spending the additional thousands of $ for the 1D X...


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## wockawocka (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*

It should keep the birders happy if the F/8 Focusing is there, heck they may even go to F/11


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## nikkito (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*

sounds to good to be true, but let's see


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## pascamel (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*



Fleetie said:


> Edit: I guess for a 3:2 aspect ratio, that makes ROUGHLY 5746 x 3828 pixels.



i guess it's more 5760 * 3840, because it will be 3 times the 1920*1080 size, with the 3:2 aspect ratio.


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## Z (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*

I find the 61 point AF and the 7.5 frame per second so incredibly hard to believe... But hey, here's to hoping. I'd likely cancel my 1D-X pre-order and save a significant amount of money.


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## candyman (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*

With a 61pt AF and 7,5 fps....and a FF....that is a serious threat for my 7D. If those specs come true, I will probably go for the 5D MKIII - if the price is affordable to my wallet


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## frisk (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*

*22mp* Sounds highly probable - as mentioned in a different thread, perfect for 3×3 oversampling. I'll be happy with this - in particular if the high-ISO performance is improved.

*61pt AF* Sounds like wishful thinking - Sure, Canon needs to improve the AF, as it is one of the main reasons many people (like myself) have not gotten the Mark II, but 61pt AF sounds a little excessive - I do expect an improvement, but not that great.

*7.5fps* Sounds too good to be true - it would hurt the 1DX sales. I highly doubt this is accurate.

*DIGIC 5* Sounds fairly likely.

*New Battery Grip with Joystick* Sounds highly probable - in particular considering the recent (leaked?) photos.

*GPS Ready* I hope so. Personally I would want built-in GPS, but I can live with external GPS like what Canon announced for the 1DX.


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## Ivar (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*

- 61pt AF & 7.5fps

it _seems_ unbelievable, yet there might be some truth in it - less and less people need reflex cameras, most are even fine with the latest phone cameras, mirrorless cameras produce very decent quality and looks like more push is taking place at this segment, leaving SLR-market quite aside - there must be very compelling reasons why to get yourself a big camera whereas one could get by with much lesser in size & price. Crippled dinosaurs are close to extinction.


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## pedro (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*



neuroanatomist said:


> With those specs, I wonder at the price. Still, with those specs, it would be hard to justify spending the additional thousands of $ for the 1D X...



How many of the specs were "spot on" back in October before the 1Dx announcement?
And, what would this mean pricewise, if 61 AF points and the 7.5 fps really materialize? Mk 1DIV level?
As a kind of a trickledown from 1DX AF wise?
I am not too much into tech, though. You are the experts. Thanks for any comment, although there's nothing but wild specualtions...


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## pedro (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*



Canon Rumors said:


> <div name="googleone_share_1" style="position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;"><glusone size="tall" count="1" href="http://www.canonrumors.com/?p=8697"></glusone></div><div id="fb_share_1" style="float: right; margin: 0 0px 0 10px;"><a name="fb_share" type="box_count" share_url="http://www.canonrumors.com/?p=8697" href="http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php">Share</a></div><div><script src="http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/connect.php/js/FB.Share" type="text/javascript"></script></div><div class="tweetmeme_button" style="float: right; margin-left: 10px; margin-bottom: 70px;"><a class="tm_button" rel="&style=normal&b=2" href="http://www.canonrumors.com/?p=8697"></a></div>
> <strong>More mentions
> 
> </strong>A few more people have mentioned February 7, 2012 as the announcement date for the 5D Mark III. The sources are good, though I am waiting for the definitive word on the matter.</p>
> ...



*In relation to CR's rating of the sources: if they consist of the same persons who provided you the 1Dx data (what I strongly hope) then you are about to land your next coup early this year* 8)


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## Fleetie (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*



pascamel said:


> Fleetie said:
> 
> 
> > Edit: I guess for a 3:2 aspect ratio, that makes ROUGHLY 5746 x 3828 pixels.
> ...



Well spotted! Good call.


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## EchoLocation (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*

if the 5D III has anywhere near those specs and is anywhere near the 5DII price I will be a very eager buyer.


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## Doodah (Jan 28, 2012)

61 AF points and 7.5 fps are big surprises.

We'll see how this pans out...


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## yunusoglu (Jan 28, 2012)

Since I always think of the 5 Series to be aimed towards studio photographers, I find some of the specs rumored to be quite awkward, especially the frame rate and the AF which wouldn't be a BIG bonus over the Mk II for studio photographers.

On the other hand, if Canon really is re-shaping the whole line of cameras (suggested by 1DX and G1X), the 5D Mk III might actually have these rumored specs and be aiming towards enthusiasts who are looking for an high-end camera with a good bit of everything. In this case, another model (say 3D) may be imminent...


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## Gumbum (Jan 28, 2012)

yunusoglu said:


> Since I always think of the 5 Series to be aimed towards studio photographers, I find some of the specs rumored to be quite awkward, especially the frame rate and the AF which wouldn't be a BIG bonus over the Mk II for studio photographers.



Exactly!


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## mathino (Jan 28, 2012)

yunusoglu said:


> Since I always think of the 5 Series to be aimed towards studio photographers, I find some of the specs rumored to be quite awkward, especially the frame rate and the AF which wouldn't be a BIG bonus over the Mk II for studio photographers.
> 
> On the other hand, if Canon really is re-shaping the whole line of cameras (suggested by 1DX and G1X), the 5D Mk III might actually have these rumored specs and be aiming towards enthusiasts who are looking for an high-end camera with a good bit of everything. In this case, another model (say 3D) may be imminent...



You are right, 5D series was meant for studio shooters where AF and fps aren't so important but with latest releases/announcement I think they are re-building product lines (as you suggested).

What I think is that the new 5D will be aimed for those who want to have all features (a little crippled from 1D series) and high image quality - and doesn't need 12 fps, rugedness (& size, weight) of 1D.

They may release a crazy high Mpx camera for landscape/studio shooters. But they want tons of Mpx then they can go for medium format and get 60 Mpx digital back wall (or how it is called).


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## Z (Jan 28, 2012)

To fuel the rumour, I suppose some of the most unbelievable specs make sense when you compare with the rumoured Nikon D800 specs: http://nikonrumors.com/2011/12/22/upcoming-nikon-products-all-you-need-to-know-recap.aspx/


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## Takuma (Jan 28, 2012)

Based on the 7D and the 5DII I did a little math and get 6.5 fps for a single Digic5+ processor in a 22MP camera, but than again this asumes that the difference between normal and dual 5+ is the same as for the 4 series.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 28, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> I do think the camera will be announced well before the 1D X ships.



Whatever the 5DIII brings in terms of specs, I really hope this turns to be true. It would eliminate a lot of uncertainty/risk over purchase of a 1D X.


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## m3tek44 (Jan 28, 2012)

ok.....My next Q is how much should I put into my savings account$$? $3K max?


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 28, 2012)

m3tek44 said:


> ok.....My next Q is how much should I put into my savings account$$? $3K max?



I think it depends on the specs - the better it is, the more Canon will likely charge. 22 MP with improved AF and 5 fps, likely same price or less that 5DII at launch - I'd guess $2500 for that. But 61-pt AF (same as 1D X) and 7.5 fps, I'd guess well north of $3K.


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## yunusoglu (Jan 28, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > I do think the camera will be announced well before the 1D X ships.
> ...



This is exactly why I believe the new 5 series camera will be announced before 1Dx starts shipping.


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## mkln (Jan 28, 2012)

idk, 7.5 fps sounds like wishful thinking, especially coupled with a good AF.

also given the very high resolution of the D800, I don't suppose canon is going to price the new 5 at the same level?
but then if prices of D800 and 5 are the same (more than $2500), my guess is that D800 will be better (D700 only had no resolution and no video, but now sides are reversed). so either the new 5 has incredible image quality (doubt it), or the D800 will just be better.

but this means that canon may have to price it lower (which is fine for me). in this case though, the high fps count and the supposedly good AF means it would take away sales from the 1DX because the price difference would be huge.

Then there's something wrong somewhere in what I wrote.
my guess is exactly fps.

oh btw more than gps it'd be cool to have integrated wifi. in a lot of situations wifi is enough to determine position. but it's also useful for other stuff.

edit: oh I just saw the D800 will have 4fps.. uhh yeah then a higher fps would make some sense for the 5. but it'd still need to be priced lower. 
I mean I don't want to repeat myself but I expect the sensor on the D800 to be at least as good as the one on the 5. probably better. possibly much better.


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## kpk1 (Jan 28, 2012)

Even if it's 7.5 fps the next 5D could have a small buffer and that would make perfect sense given the specs of 1D X. So you can shoot high fps but for a small amount of time and just for a few images. 
That 7.5 fps could be with some tricks let's say like small jpegs or with focus locked on.

Those 5D expected specs would make this the first body for the photographers since it's well known that Canon never launched what we wanted.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 28, 2012)

yunusoglu said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



Ironically, that's sort of why I think they won't, or if they do, it won't come close to the rumored spec list. I _can_ buy a 1D X...if they announce a 5DIII with more MP than the 1D X, same AF as the 1D X, nearly the frame rate of the 7D, and at half the cost of a 1D X, I would quite possibly buy the 5DIII instead, meaning less ¥ for Canon. To me, that doesn't make fiscal sense for Canon...


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## jchl97 (Jan 28, 2012)

While the specs are very likable (61-point AF/7.5 fps), with an AF system that is similar to what Nikon has to offer in their D700 or the upcoming D800, this is simply too close spec-wise to the 1D X. This is seriously going to threaten both the 1D X's position, as well as the 7D (including it's successor) as a sports oriented, fast machine. A 5 fps is more reasonable. For the megapixels 22 is pretty good, I like how Canon decides to stay around this limit, however, can it compete against Nikon's much confirmed 36MP D800? We have yet to see how they perform... And by the way, from the leaked images, to me that's much of what the Mark III will look like and I am very impressed by how they modifies it and applies a 7D layout to it. It just looks more ergonomic and well designed than the Mark II.


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## Mr.Magic (Jan 28, 2012)

Specs look awesome, a bit too awesome if you ask me for the $ 2500 price range.
In order to keep it in the correct price range to make this camera a real sales wonder, they have to keep AF points under pro level, let's say around 15 cross type AF points, and under 7 fps, something like 4.5-5.5 fps.


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## jchl97 (Jan 28, 2012)

kpk1 said:


> Even if it's 7.5 fps the next 5D could have a small buffer and that would make perfect sense given the specs of 1D X. So you can shoot high fps but for a small amount of time and just for a few images.
> That 7.5 fps could be with some tricks let's say like small jpegs or with focus locked on.
> 
> Those 5D expected specs would make this the first body for the photographers since it's well known that Canon never launched what we wanted.



I hope Canon can somehow adopts the selectable low-speed continuous frame rates like how Nikon does it with the C.Fn. In this case we can select the speed ranging from like 1-7.5fps.


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## smirkypants (Jan 28, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Ironically, that's sort of why I think they won't, or if they do, it won't come close to the rumored spec list. I _can_ buy a 1D X...if they announce a 5DIII with more MP than the 1D X, same AF as the 1D X, nearly the frame rate of the 7D, and at half the cost of a 1D X, I would quite possibly buy the 5DIII instead, meaning less ¥ for Canon. To me, that doesn't make fiscal sense for Canon...


I think the majority of people who "need" a 1Dx are going to get it anyway. There may be a few who opt for the 5D3, but those journalists/sports guys who absolutely need an indestructible camera will get it.

I'm assuming that they know that they will bleed off a few potential 1Dx buyers, but that will probably be vastly outweighed by the number of people who see a great camera with great features as suddenly a must have. If they can convince a large number of 5D2 (plus xxD/xxxD) owners to upgrade even though they don't really need it, it's an on-balance huge win for them... not to mention if they bury Nikon. From what I'm reading, it looks to me like the latest round is clearly pointing towards Canon. The D4 doesn't look all that impressive and the D800... I know there are a lot of Nikon owners who are DEEPLY suspicious.


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## jchl97 (Jan 28, 2012)

Mr.Magic said:


> Specs look awesome, a bit too awesome if you ask me for the $ 2500 price range.
> In order to keep it in the correct price range to make this camera a real sales wonder, they have to keep AF points under pro level, let's say around 15 cross type AF points, and under 7 fps, something like 4.5-5.5 fps.



Agree, using 7D's AF system plus a 5 fps (with selectable frame rate like Nikon) would be perfect for the Mark III.


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## mathino (Jan 28, 2012)

I don't care much about fps, just want better AF (19 points will be just fine, if you ask me). 22 Mpx are enough for me, don't need more. BG with joystick would be nice, also GPS. Well, we have to wait until 7th febrary and we will know more  Till then we can just speculate


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## Canon-F1 (Jan 28, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> The D4 doesn't look all that impressive and the D800... I know there are a lot of Nikon owners who are DEEPLY suspicious.




i still don´t believe the 36 MP rumors....


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## well_dunno (Jan 28, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> yunusoglu said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



+1 
I am hopeful that Canon will not come with "crippled" models for market segmentation purposes but a mk 3 above 7 fps and 61 point AF costing more? I do not think they would have gone out with 1D X in the first place if mk3 specs were planned like that...


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## Orangutan (Jan 28, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> I think the majority of people who "need" a 1Dx are going to get it anyway. There may be a few who opt for the 5D3, but those journalists/sports guys who absolutely need an indestructible camera will get it.
> 
> I'm assuming that they know that they will bleed off a few potential 1Dx buyers, but that will probably be vastly outweighed by the number of people who see a great camera with great features as suddenly a must have. If they can convince a large number of 5D2 (plus xxD/xxxD) owners to upgrade even though they don't really need it, it's an on-balance huge win for them...



Exactly: as I posted earlier, they'll take the whole thing into consideration:


Plus profit from new buyers who would not have bought 1DX or gone to Nikon
Plus profit from upgrades by existing Canon owners
Minus lost profit from 1DX sales

If Canon thinks this is the best equation then they'll do it. In fact, <humor>maybe they pushed back the 1DX so as not to interfere with 5D3 sales 8) </humor>


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## jchl97 (Jan 28, 2012)

From the leaked image, the Creative Auto and Full Auto modes of the Mark II are being replaced by the A+ Intelligent Mode as seen on the T3i. Does it suggest being a pro feature by ditching two Auto modes for one?


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## DeepShadows (Jan 28, 2012)

You guys arguing about they would never put the specs of the 5D III so close to the 1D X are forgetting that's exactly what Nikon did with the D700 and D3 and it worked for them I would say. I am actually leaning towards the 1D X if these specs are true for the build quality and dual cards etc. What if with this new restructuring canon decided to treat the new cinema EOS as the 5D as it were and cripple that body since mostly movie guys will be using it anyway? Then the 5D X or whatever they will call it will be the new 7D of the 5 Series and the EOS C will be under 4FPS and have lousy AF because it will mostly not be needed.


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## nikkito (Jan 28, 2012)

what makes me wonder about the specs of this camera is not only what be just said about the 1DX. If there is a replacement of the 7D, then the speed and AF points of the 5D III would make a 7D II not so "buyable" unless there is a very big price gap between these two.


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## DavidD (Jan 28, 2012)

As a landscape photographer primarily, I 
can't see why I would want to upgrade
to this set of specs.

The 7.5 FPS might help me capture Green flashes 
better, and get a few more bird flight moments, 
but other than that I can't see a persuasive reason 
to upgrade.

Then comparing this rumor (we are talking rumors here)
to the other DSLR manufacturer's rumored 36 megapixel
camera . . .

After capturing sunset images last eve and having
the backlit forest detail evaporate - I hope any 5d3 
has seriously bigger dynamic range; at least 2 stops 
please, preferably 4 stops.

That would catch my attention !

Thank you Canon.


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## chito (Jan 28, 2012)

With all the fast (fps) cameras out there right now (10 fps, 24Mpix NEX-7, etc.) it would be unacceptable for Canon to release a lowish Mpix camera (22 Mpix) and a low fps rate... Me thinks...


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## Canon-F1 (Jan 28, 2012)

DavidD said:


> Then comparing this rumor (we are talking rumors here)
> of the other DSLR manufacturer's rumored 36 megapixel
> camera . . .




i don´t believe it 100% yet thet the nikon will have 36 MP but i would really love to see that it HAS 36MP. 
so we can compare spatial resolution from a 21/22mp camera and a 36 MP camera in real world scenarios. 





> preferably 4 stops.



yeah sure... lets make it 6 stops.... :


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## BDD (Jan 28, 2012)

I couldn't care less about a MP increase from the 5D2. 21 or 22 MP is more than enough for most of us. And if today's rumoured specs are correct...I'll be mostly happy. I only still need to know about the "native ISO range" ("useable ISO"). Will the 5D3 have the native ISO range of the 1D-X (e.g. 100-51,200)? Would make me happy and a buyer. As I prefer to shoot in natural light w/o using a flash under very low-light sometimes. Like to have that ability.

Rumoured 61-point AF? Does this mean the 5D3 will have the same AF system as the 1D-X? WIth 41 cross-type. 

And also important...I hope Canon doesn't make the same mistake Nikon is pricing their D800 models at $3000/$3900 (2 versions...one w/ AA and one w/o). Canon should keep the price around $2500 USD. 

Hope Canon does announce the 5D3 on the 7th of Feb as also rumoured.


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## Canon-F1 (Jan 28, 2012)

chito said:


> With all the fast (fps) cameras out there right now (10 fps, 24Mpix NEX-7, etc.) it would be unacceptable for Canon to release a lowish Mpix camera (22 Mpix) and a low fps rate...



sorry im not up to date with NEX models but isn´t that 3,7 FPS continuous shooting?

edit: just checked...



> The NEX-7 has two continuous drive modes, labelled 'Continuous Shooting' and 'Speed Priority Continuous'. The latter runs at a headline-grabbing 10 frames per second, although with focus fixed at the start of a burst and no live view feed. Meanwhile 'Continuous' runs at highly respectable speeds (reaching a maximum of 3.7fps if you fix focus manually) while still providing live view between frames - the fluidity of which is greatly improved by using the electronic front curtain shutter.



so you are the usual "PR victim" it seems


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## Canon94 (Jan 28, 2012)

That would be an awesome camera for wildlife! 
Good Image Quality, fast and (hopefully) a great AF. 
And the 7D II as second body + for added Range.

I really hope this is true. But to me it looks like a 1DX killer. Like the D700 and the D3S.


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## altenae (Jan 28, 2012)

> Rumoured 61-point AF? Does this mean the 5D3 will have the same AF system as the 1D-X? WIth 41 cross-type.



What do you think ???


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## mememe (Jan 28, 2012)

61pt AF

CR-Guy: Do you believe any shit in your inbox?


This will NEVER HAPPEN!


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## Axilrod (Jan 28, 2012)

mememe said:


> 61pt AF
> 
> CR-Guy: Do you believe any S___ in your inbox?
> 
> ...



I do think 61-pt is somewhat of a stretch, but you never know. He's been right many times before and has reliable sources and wouldn't CR2 this if he didn't think it was probable. Everyone is saying these specs are unbelievable based on a price of $2500 (which I highly doubt will be the final cost). But if the camera is $3000-$3500 it seems like it could be possible.


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## marius (Jan 28, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> If I put together everything I have heard, these are the specs of the 5D Mark III.
> 22mp
> 61pt AF
> 7.5fps (this I’ve only seen once)
> ...



I still believe we will see 2 different cameras coming. One with the above specs, called 7D Mark II OR a totally another camera, maybe 3D (1,3 Crop Factor?!).

And 5D Mark III with something like:
_GPS Enabled
Less than 19 AF points
Eye control autofocus
5fps_
See:
http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/01/5d-mark-iii-information-cr1-2/


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## mkln (Jan 28, 2012)

DavidD said:


> As a landscape photographer primarily, I
> can't see why I would want to upgrade
> to this set of specs.
> 
> ...


YES. spot on on what I think.

btw. the more I read the rumors the more I am getting the impression that D800 and 5d3 have switched roles between Canon and Nikon. 
D800 without AA? how can $3900 be wrong? isn't this supposed to be a strong competitor for MF? at $3900 it's a winner.

I just hope the roles are reversed on the DR side too.


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## JR (Jan 28, 2012)

With those spec, I think this would be a big winner for Canon. I would assume with the new processor that we would also gain a bit on the ISO performance. I am a bit dis-appointed if it not announced on Feb 7th for no other reason that I am so eager to get some new bodies and see how the new line will stack up against the new Nikon line-up...

It does seem more and more sure that the 5DmkIII will get a great AF system, much to the contrary of many of original assessment here - don't you guys love it when we are wrong!


----------



## jrista (Jan 28, 2012)

I think I may be alone in thinking the majority of those 5D III specs are totally bogus. The 22mp sounds plausible, but 61pt AF and 7.5fps sound FAR more like wishful thinking or even someone trolling with rumors to see what kind of response they get. I don't think, logically, there is any way Canon would cut into 1D X sales by stuffing such an advanced AF system and high frame rate onto the 5D, which has classically been positioned for a very different market.

WISHFUL THINKING! I'll take the 22mp over 18mp, though.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 28, 2012)

jrista said:


> I think I may be alone in thinking the majority of those 5D III specs are totally bogus. The 22mp sounds plausible, but 61pt AF and 7.5fps sound FAR more like wishful thinking or even someone trolling with rumors to see what kind of response they get. I don't think, logically, there is any way Canon would cut into 1D X sales by stuffing such an advanced AF system and high frame rate onto the 5D, which has classically been positioned for a very different market.
> 
> WISHFUL THINKING! I'll take the 22mp over 18mp, though.



No, you're not alone...


----------



## bigblue1ca (Jan 28, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Ironically, that's sort of why I think they won't, or if they do, it won't come close to the rumored spec list. I _can_ buy a 1D X...if they announce a 5DIII with more MP than the 1D X, same AF as the 1D X, nearly the frame rate of the 7D, and at half the cost of a 1D X, I would quite possibly buy the 5DIII instead, meaning less ¥ for Canon. To me, that doesn't make fiscal sense for Canon...



I'm in the same boat exactly. With these specs, Canon would have to know they are going to lose out on a lot of 1DX sales. That makes me think either the specs are off, or Canon will price it in the $3800-4000 range. Maybe at that price with those specs it would make up for the lost 1DX sales and actually make them a higher profit since there is so much demand for the 5DIII?


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## briansquibb (Jan 28, 2012)

These specs are not that different from the 7D apart from the 22mp ff - did Canon worry about the 7d affecting the 1d4 sales?


----------



## traveller (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*



neuroanatomist said:


> With those specs, I wonder at the price. Still, with those specs, it would be hard to justify spending the additional thousands of $ for the 1D X...



Will you stop saying that! Someone from Canon might hear you.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 28, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> These specs are not that different from the 7D apart from the 22mp ff - did Canon worry about the 7d affecting the 1d4 sales?



Did the 7D have the same size sensor and same AF system? That's what's being proposed for the 5DIII...


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 28, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> These specs are not that different from the 7D apart from the 22mp ff - did Canon worry about the 7d affecting the 1d4 sales?



+1

Producing a camera that sells well and makes a ton of money is what its about. Selling a 100K 1DX cameras does not make the profit like selling 1 million 5D MK III's. Reducing the 1DX sales by 10% is not a concern.

If I need a 1DX, I would buy it regardless of a 5D MK III.

In the days of film, any camera body could take the exact same image as a pro body, assuming the same lens and fillm. That did not stop Canon and Nikon from churning out cheap bodies with fewer features, and making much more money on them than they did on the few expensive ones sold. They would not be in business today if they had not made the cheap bodies.


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## jrista (Jan 28, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> These specs are not that different from the 7D apart from the 22mp ff - did Canon worry about the 7d affecting the 1d4 sales?



1D IV has a larger sensor and a more advanced AF system, not to mention a hoard of other benefits that the 7D does not. On the other hand, the 5D III specs here are for a sensor of the same size (but HIGHER resolution) and an identical AF system as the 1D X...outside of those who simply want bragging rights or the built-in vertical grip...with specs like that...why would anyone buy the more expensive 1D X?


----------



## dealaddict (Jan 28, 2012)

I also don't believe it will have 61 AF pt and 7.5 fps. But this is not totally impossible. The D700 also have 51 AF pts and 5 fps (8 with the battery grip). So, with this spec, Canon finally catch up with Nikon, and a lot of Canon user will be very happy. But from the marketing perspective, jumping from 9 AF pts to 61 is a giant leap, and Canon may just increase by small steps so to keep people keep upgrading. 

I just switch to Sony ... but if the spec is true, I think I may switch back to Canon


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 28, 2012)

jrista said:


> ...why would anyone buy the more expensive 1D X?



Weather sealing? More robust build and shutter life? 12 fps? Pathological fear of the number 5?


----------



## lbloom (Jan 28, 2012)

I think giving the 5D III the 1D X AF would be great, and the 1D X still has other specs that set it apart, like dual processors or FPS. We won't know until we know!!!


----------



## yunusoglu (Jan 28, 2012)

dealaddict said:


> I just switch to Sony ... but if the spec is true, I think I may switch back to Canon



I really don't get this... Not only that I don't see a reason to switch to Sony but also; what will happen if Olympus announces a super-duper camera 3 months later? And then Pentax announces a better one? And then Nikon with a killer deal?

I'll never understand this...

P.S.: No offence mate, nothing personal, just that your post reminded me what I wanted to say since a while...


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## DavidRiesenberg (Jan 28, 2012)

I don't know. I mean I can find logical reasons to this batch of rumors to be both true and false. But my gut feeling tells me that Canon would not do a 180 degree turn on their market diversification scheme at this point so while the 22MP might be true, pro grade AF and high FPS will not.


----------



## Stone (Jan 28, 2012)

I find these specs entirely plausible, the 1DX just isn't an affordable proposition for most people unless you're a demanding pro with tons of business or an avid enthusiast with lots of disposable cash. It simply isn't on the radar for 98% of FF DSLR users.

The 5DIII NEEDS a spec sheet like this because, the advantages it once had i.e. 20+MP and great video are going to be standard for all the new bodies that occupy it's price range. The current 5DII falls pretty short against the D700 once you remove these 2 advantage. If Canon continues to cripple the 5 series, they will most certainly lose alot of new customers to Nikon. Why would someone who already needs to buy new glass in order to move up to FF pick the 5DIII over the D800 if the Nikon has superior af, fps and build quality for roughly the same price?

I think Canon realizes that the advantages it once had are now gone and it needs to step up it's game or risk losing the slew of crop body users who eventually plan to go FF.....

I for one hope the specs are true so instead of a 1DX, I could get a 5DIII + 24-70L + 35L for roughly the same price as a 1DX which would complete my FF kit.....


----------



## gputah (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*



DenDen said:


> 61pt AF like the 1DX??
> I don't think that Canon will put the same AF in the 5D as the 1DX...



Nikon does this all the time...


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*



neuroanatomist said:


> With those specs, I wonder at the price. Still, with those specs, it would be hard to justify spending the additional thousands of $ for the 1D X...



Yeah those would be very, very un-recent Canon-like specs. 7.5fps is just enough that even many serious action pros might not justify the 1DX and 22MP gives them a touch more reach at that too and if it has 61pt AF w digic IV help and if it comes in a smaller size. But maybe they noticed the 36MP D800 and figured the 5D3 is utterly dead in the water unless the spec it out like mad. And better lose a few 1DX sales (it is so much more than even a 1D price now maybe they figure only the few who must have the best of the best in all ways would have gotten it anyway) than everything to D800?

Something like 30MP, 6fps, slightly reduced 1DX AF or maybe 1D3 or 1D4 AF would seem to hit the 1DX less hard since 6fps isn't quite enough for the truly serious action pro/PJ.

Anyway, either option would be fine by me .


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III - February 7, 2012 [CR2]*



pedro said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > With those specs, I wonder at the price. Still, with those specs, it would be hard to justify spending the additional thousands of $ for the 1D X...
> ...



Maybe this is the fabled 3D and it will cost like $3300-4000? And then the 5D3 comes later at 30MP, 5-6fps, 7D+ AF and $2600-$3200?


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## BDD (Jan 28, 2012)

lbloom said:


> I think giving the 5D III the 1D X AF would be great, and the 1D X still has other specs that set it apart, like dual processors or FPS. We won't know until we know!!!



That's what I'm thinking. Just borrow some key features (e.g. 61-pt AF and 100-51,200 native ISO) from the 1D-X (along with the specs listed today). But pricing the 5D3 around $3000 (preferably closer to $2500...though, it doesn't look like that's going to happen...since Nikon will already be pricing their 2 versions of the D800...rumour..between $3000-3900...Canon is likely do something similar with the 5D3).

Hope Canon does make a formal announcement on the 7th of Feb. 

As for switching to Sony...not something I'd consider (I'm a Nikon shooter). Not enough lens selection yet (no comparison to Canon...which I think has the best selection...with Nikon a close 2nd...which is one of the major reasons why I'm considering switching to Canon if the 5D3 has the specs I'm hoping for...the D800 won't...if those rumours are true).


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 28, 2012)

jchl97 said:


> While the specs are very likable (61-point AF/7.5 fps), with an AF system that is similar to what Nikon has to offer in their D700 or the upcoming D800, this is simply too close spec-wise to the 1D X. This is seriously going to threaten both the 1D X's position, as well as the 7D (including it's successor) as a sports oriented, fast machine. A 5 fps is more reasonable. For the megapixels 22 is pretty good, I like how Canon decides to stay around this limit, however, can it compete against Nikon's much confirmed 36MP D800? We have yet to see how they perform... And by the way, from the leaked images, to me that's much of what the Mark III will look like and I am very impressed by how they modifies it and applies a 7D layout to it. It just looks more ergonomic and well designed than the Mark II.



OTOH, 5fps with 22MP would get slammed by a 36MP 4fps FF and 16MP 6fps APS-C dual D800 with Nikon's best AF.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 28, 2012)

Mr.Magic said:


> Specs look awesome, a bit too awesome if you ask me for the $ 2500 price range.
> In order to keep it in the correct price range to make this camera a real sales wonder, they have to keep AF points under pro level, let's say around 15 cross type AF points, and under 7 fps, something like 4.5-5.5 fps.



But if it is 22MP and 4.5-5.5 fps and 15 pt AF that isn't that huge of a step above 5D2, especially when you consider this will be selling for the next 3-4 years!


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 28, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Ironically, that's sort of why I think they won't, or if they do, it won't come close to the rumored spec list. I _can_ buy a 1D X...if they announce a 5DIII with more MP than the 1D X, same AF as the 1D X, nearly the frame rate of the 7D, and at half the cost of a 1D X, I would quite possibly buy the 5DIII instead, meaning less ¥ for Canon. To me, that doesn't make fiscal sense for Canon...
> ...



Exactly.

If these specs are true, then that's it.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 28, 2012)

jrista said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > These specs are not that different from the 7D apart from the 22mp ff - did Canon worry about the 7d affecting the 1d4 sales?
> ...



It would still have the 12fps, less mirror blackout, quick shutter, weather sealing, 100% VF, for someone who can spend $7000 on it maybe 80% of them go for it anyway and the lost 20% is more than made up with 5D3 sales not going to D800, plus 5D3 sales to new buyers mean lots of nice $ L lens sales too. Granted something with more MP and a touch slower might still keep it safe from D800 and hurt 1DX even less.

One thing though, someone on one of the forums who claims to have already held the 5D3, his hints wouldn't seem to fit in with the CR2 specs very well though. Sure he could be full if it, but he has tended to pop-up right before each release and offer reasonable hints before.


----------



## yunusoglu (Jan 28, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Mr.Magic said:
> 
> 
> > Specs look awesome, a bit too awesome if you ask me for the $ 2500 price range.
> ...



Well, I think it depends... Comparing number of pixels is nowhere near comparing image quality and just the same, comparing number of AF points does not compare AF performance.

Compared to 5D Mk II, a 5D Mk III with a recent new-tech 22MP sensor, +1 full stop of dynamic range, a little better AF performance in low light and slightly better ergonomics is quite a good reason to upgrade for me even assuming there's nothing else different between to the models.


----------



## StevenBrianSamuels (Jan 28, 2012)

mkln said:


> DavidD said:
> 
> 
> > As a landscape photographer primarily, I
> ...



Same camp just different reason (studio) so I am in the high MP camp since I dont shoot over 100 ISO.

Hoping canon will put out a D800-like camera w/o AA + high MP @ 5k it would still be a killer over going the MF route. Even at 10k...


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## traveller (Jan 28, 2012)

Jordansternphotography said:


> Why would they announce a built-in GPS before they even begin shipping the new GPS accessory unit for the 1D X?



I would assume that "GPS ready" would mean that it would be compatible with the GPS accessory, not have it built in...


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## kpk1 (Jan 28, 2012)

If I were Canon the next thing would be a 3D with the specs allready well known.
The next 5D I would make it a high mpx the-same-3D-body.
The price for both would be equal because each have something that the other doesn't: one for high iso and the second high mpx.
If it will not be 3D then I would name those 5D3 and 5Ds and the "s" it won't be lost.
But I would keep 3D and 3Ds for a more advanced body like 1D without the grip weather sealing, high specs and the 5D/5Ds for the accesible full frame body.
At least that was the original 5D a FF high mpx body at a decent price.
C'mon Canon, show it!


----------



## pedro (Jan 28, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> <div name="googleone_share_1" style="position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;"><glusone size="tall" count="1" href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/01/5d-mark-iii-february-7-2012-cr2/"></glusone></div><div id="fb_share_1" style="float: right; margin: 0 0px 0 10px;"><a name="fb_share" type="box_count" share_url="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/01/5d-mark-iii-february-7-2012-cr2/" href="http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php">Share</a></div><div><script src="http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/connect.php/js/FB.Share" type="text/javascript"></script></div><div class="tweetmeme_button" style="float: right; margin-left: 10px; margin-bottom: 70px;"><a class="tm_button" rel="&style=normal&b=2" href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/01/5d-mark-iii-february-7-2012-cr2/"></a></div>
> <strong>*UPDATE 2*
> 
> </strong>Another source highly doubts February 7, 2012 is the date for an announcement. All the little bits of information that are leaking say it’s close, but it may not be <em>that</em> close. <strong>Please do not treat February 7, 2012 as fact until I can [CR3] it.</strong></p>
> ...



*Well, if a 5D3 announcement can be expected beyond February 7 as stated today again, then have this old post by CR from last December
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,2602.0.html 

It says: 5D Mark III Announcement Barring another manufacturing problem in Asia, count on the 5D Mark III being announced around the end of March or early April 2012.
Availability will probably happen before the summer begins in 2012. No specs were given at this time. This is a very solid [CR2]

The NAB show is April 14-19 in Las Vegas.
*
cr 

« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 07:13:22 AM by Canon Rumors »


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## wickidwombat (Jan 29, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> jchl97 said:
> 
> 
> > While the specs are very likable (61-point AF/7.5 fps), with an AF system that is similar to what Nikon has to offer in their D700 or the upcoming D800, this is simply too close spec-wise to the 1D X. This is seriously going to threaten both the 1D X's position, as well as the 7D (including it's successor) as a sports oriented, fast machine. A 5 fps is more reasonable. For the megapixels 22 is pretty good, I like how Canon decides to stay around this limit, however, can it compete against Nikon's much confirmed 36MP D800? We have yet to see how they perform... And by the way, from the leaked images, to me that's much of what the Mark III will look like and I am very impressed by how they modifies it and applies a 7D layout to it. It just looks more ergonomic and well designed than the Mark II.
> ...


If it can perform well at high iso then I agree with you completely, although havent there been rumours in the nikon world of its high iso performance being not so flash?


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## kapanak (Jan 29, 2012)

Why must we assume the 61 point AF will be the same as the 1DX? It might be a severely crippled one >_> ... as most of us Canon users seem to accept the fact that Canon feeds crippled AF to anything but their 1D series. *shaking my head*


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## Woody (Jan 29, 2012)

mkln said:


> btw. the more I read the rumors the more I am getting the impression that D800 and 5d3 have switched roles between Canon and Nikon.
> D800 without AA? how can $3900 be wrong? isn't this supposed to be a strong competitor for MF? at $3900 it's a winner.
> 
> I just hope the roles are reversed on the DR side too.



I am still reeling in shock from the rumored specs.

I agree about the dynamic range thing. Canon, please show us what you can do with your sensor electronics...


----------



## Woody (Jan 29, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> One thing though, someone on one of the forums who claims to have already held the 5D3, his hints wouldn't seem to fit in with the CR2 specs very well though. Sure he could be full if it, but he has tended to pop-up right before each release and offer reasonable hints before.



I was about to point this out, but you beat me to it. According to that fellow, the 5D3 handled just like the 7D... I suppose he was referring to the frame rate. But the 61 AF pt? Is that real??? Wow!


----------



## JR (Jan 29, 2012)

kapanak said:


> Why must we assume the 61 point AF will be the same as the 1DX? It might be a severely crippled one >_> ... as most of us Canon users seem to accept the fact that Canon feeds crippled AF to anything but their 1D series. *shaking my head*



I am thinking those days are soon to be over. Maybe the new 5DmkIII will not get the 61 point AF system as the 1DX, but maybe it could get the 1DIV AF system? That would be a huge improvement over the current obsolete AF of the 5D mkII...


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## Wrathwilde (Jan 29, 2012)

- I can see these specs being accurate if the 5DMK3 is released at $3500-$4000.

- They could pull off using the 61 point auto-focus, no reason not to... but the 100,000 pixel RGB metering will be absent, as will all the features that come with it, like the intelligent tracking and spot metering using the active AF points. So the 1D X will still be well ahead of the 5DMK3 when it comes to mission critical action shots, and evaluative metering.

- I also expect we won't see any more than a doubling of the ISO speed, probably up to 12,800, but much more usable and probably software limited just to keep it from eating into the 1D X sales. Hopefully we'll see a nice jump in the DR too. But expect the 1D X to trounce the 5DMK3 when it comes to low light and DR performance, even if Canon has to kneecap the upper ISO select-ability of the 5DMK3 to do so. I don't think Canon will let the selectable ISO be anywhere near the 51,200 of the 1D X, even if the noise levels for the two look identical up to 12,800... the 5DMK3 will just not have anything higher available.


----------



## Deeohuu (Jan 29, 2012)

Woody said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > One thing though, someone on one of the forums who claims to have already held the 5D3, his hints wouldn't seem to fit in with the CR2 specs very well though. Sure he could be full if it, but he has tended to pop-up right before each release and offer reasonable hints before.
> ...




Actually his hints fit these specs pretty well. He was misinterpreted to hint at higher resolution but he did not. And he did not call it a 5D III. If anything he hinted it was a union of the 5D and 7D line.


----------



## JR (Jan 29, 2012)

Deeohuu said:


> Actually his hints fit these specs pretty well. He was misinterpreted to hint at higher resolution but he did not. And he did not call it a 5D III. If anything he hinted it was a union of the 5D and 7D line.



Hummm...I smell a 5DX on the way!


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## Woody (Jan 29, 2012)

I should point out that while most of us kept talking about the upcoming D800 as a competitor, we totally forgot about Sony. The A99 should have some crazy frame rate (even if it does not AF in every frame).

But I am still quite surprised by the 61 AF point. Maybe many of those AF points are hidden unless activated by AF Servo???


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## doug14 (Jan 29, 2012)

lol d800 is coming next week good luck waiting for the 5dmk3


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## DzPhotography (Jan 29, 2012)

doug14 said:


> lol d800 is coming next week good luck waiting for the 5dmk3


so? : And no, it's in two weeks


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## tooslick2k (Jan 29, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > These specs are not that different from the 7D apart from the 22mp ff - did Canon worry about the 7d affecting the 1d4 sales?
> ...



+1


----------



## Woody (Jan 29, 2012)

Thom Hogan this to say about the 5D3 and D800 http://bythom.com/2011%20Nikon%20News.htm:

"Sometime in early 2012 we're going to have the full FX body updates from both Canon and Nikon. In the case of the 5DII and D700 follow ups, there will be substantive pixel increases (the rumors put both in the 30's)...

... Nikon and Canon clearly think of dedicated pros and serious enthusiasts differently. They've been prioritizing design decisions accordingly, and that includes sensor choices."

and

"The thing I was trying to address in my article was what the camera makers--specifically Nikon and Canon--had concluded about pixels versus target customer. My conclusion: they think that the amateur/enthusiast will respond more to pixels, the professional more to low-level pixel integrity. Thus, we'll get more pixels in the lower cost bodies.

Does that mean no pro will buy a 36mp body? No, it doesn't"


----------



## bigblue1ca (Jan 29, 2012)

I'm sure we'll get more from CR in the morning, but this is the latest update on his Facebook account:

"5d3 not coming on feb 7. It will arrive later in the month. CR3.... Site post soon."

https://www.facebook.com/canonrumorsguy/posts/309985652381384


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## doug14 (Jan 29, 2012)

DzPhotography said:


> doug14 said:
> 
> 
> > lol d800 is coming next week good luck waiting for the 5dmk3
> ...




So Canon was just waiting for Nikon to then release theirs, this is cat and mouse game for me: Nikon cat and Canon mouse.


----------



## waving_odd (Jan 29, 2012)

Wrathwilde said:


> - I can see these specs being accurate if the 5DMK3 is released at $3500-$4000.



It makes sense especially when D800 is rumored to be between $3000 to $3900. With similar amount of money, customers decide themselves if they want a niche-like D800 resolution monster (esp. with the AA filter removed); or if they want a more all-round 5D3 with a better than decent AF and the good old IQ (hopefully with better DR and without banding anymore).



Wrathwilde said:


> - They could pull off using the 61 point auto-focus, no reason not to... but the 100,000 pixel RGB metering will be absent, as will all the features that come with it, like the intelligent tracking and spot metering using the active AF points. So the 1D X will still be well ahead of the 5DMK3 when it comes to mission critical action shots, and evaluative metering.
> 
> - I also expect we won't see any more than a doubling of the ISO speed, probably up to 12,800, but much more usable and probably software limited just to keep it from eating into the 1D X sales. Hopefully we'll see a nice jump in the DR too. But expect the 1D X to trounce the 5DMK3 when it comes to low light and DR performance, even if Canon has to kneecap the upper ISO select-ability of the 5DMK3 to do so. I don't think Canon will let the selectable ISO be anywhere near the 51,200 of the 1D X, even if the noise levels for the two look identical up to 12,800... the 5DMK3 will just not have anything higher available.



Exactly, and that's why I think mission critical pro-togs will still pay $7k for ultimate AF and ISO. No matter what. Their mission critical jobs pay for their top of the line equipment. And without top of the line equipment, they can't make a living.

What about other less-demanding pro-togs or enthusiasts? They will hesitate and think they might not need the top of the line AF and ISO. But they definitely want something better than 5D2. They will settle for a $4k deal. They were never meant to be the target audience of 1D X anyway.

Either way, I see Canon's future line of FF models somewhat better positioned than Nikon's.


----------



## waving_odd (Jan 29, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Producing a camera that sells well and makes a ton of money is what its about. Selling a 100K 1DX cameras does not make the profit like selling 1 million 5D MK III's. Reducing the 1DX sales by 10% is not a concern.
> 
> If I need a 1DX, I would buy it regardless of a 5D MK III.



Bang on.

Flagship is never meant to be the top seller.

Affordable model for enthusiast is always the blockbuster.

A good analogy is like BMW's 6 Series and 3 Series coupe.


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## waving_odd (Jan 29, 2012)

bigblue1ca said:


> I'm sure we'll get more from CR in the morning, but this is the latest update on his Facebook account:
> 
> "5d3 not coming on feb 7. _*It will arrive later in the month. CR3*_.... Site post soon."
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/canonrumorsguy/posts/309985652381384



Yeah, announcing on the same day with competitor is weird (unless you're Jannard from RED :) Craig now says "later in Feb" is CR3. It isn't bad news at all. It might even be able to distract the media a bit away from the D4's delivery. :


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 29, 2012)

Wrathwilde said:


> - I also expect we won't see any more than a doubling of the ISO speed, probably up to 12,800, but much more usable and probably software limited just to keep it from eating into the 1D X sales. Hopefully we'll see a nice jump in the DR too. But expect the 1D X to trounce the 5DMK3 when it comes to low light and DR performance, even if Canon has to kneecap the upper ISO select-ability of the 5DMK3 to do so. I don't think Canon will let the selectable ISO be anywhere near the 51,200 of the 1D X, even if the noise levels for the two look identical up to 12,800... the 5DMK3 will just not have anything higher available.



I don't think so, Canon has never once intentionally crippled sensor performance. That way would also make them look poor too easily in the tests that will pop up all over the net. That is one game they don't mess with.

And you forget that the higher ISO are all pushed anyway, so even if they left above 12,800 you'd get the same (plus more highlights preserved by pushing RAW in post), well as much for jpg or video shooters but. and thos ehigher ones often look a mess anyway.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 29, 2012)

Deeohuu said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



But didn't he say one of three main specs in that one guy's list were wrong? That guy listed:
6fps
22MP
19 pt AF with Digic 4 assist

Two of those specs don't appear to match this CR2 info.


----------



## npherno (Jan 29, 2012)

Axilrod said:


> mememe said:
> 
> 
> > 61pt AF
> ...



I agree that it's much more likely to get a variant of the 7D AF, but if it did come Spec'ed as rumored, and at a reasonable price, Canon would have a hell of a camera to sell. It would be like the D700 we wished we had. 

Does anyone know how many D700's sold vs D3's? Im not sure about the specifics of the Nikon line, but perhaps the accountants at Canon rather sell volume rather than a limited number of the high-end?


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## briansquibb (Jan 29, 2012)

I have been out playing with my new to me 'slow' 1Ds3 and had no problem with taking BIF - if the new 5DIII matches that I would be pleased 

AF point on left of centre, whereas on the 5DII it would have had to be the centre point (cropped off right side)


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 29, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I have been out playing with my new to me 'slow' 1Ds3 and had no problem with taking BIF - if the new 5DIII matches that I would be pleased



Nobody here has said the 1D3 AF is slow have they? Who has said that?
Fps isn't that fast on it, but the AF is fast.


----------



## briansquibb (Jan 29, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > I have been out playing with my new to me 'slow' 1Ds3 and had no problem with taking BIF - if the new 5DIII matches that I would be pleased
> ...



- 1Ds3


----------



## DzPhotography (Jan 29, 2012)

doug14 said:


> DzPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > doug14 said:
> ...


And with the pro-line Nikon was completely caught by surprise with the 1D X and had to quickly update their D3s just no to lose face in the Olympics. : Also your statement doesn't make sense. 
If Canon waits and see what Nikon does, they have more chance to be the cat  Also, what sense does a 36MP FF make? That's something for mediumformat. Too much pixles crammed in a FF sensor is gonna make a very noisy one imho.... : 

Oh wait, maybe you're just a troll  well go trolling on the nikonrumors forum then. :


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## dealaddict (Jan 29, 2012)

yunusoglu said:


> dealaddict said:
> 
> 
> > I just switch to Sony ... but if the spec is true, I think I may switch back to Canon
> ...



Yes, I have my reasons to switch that I don't need you to understand or agree.


----------



## dwischnewski (Jan 29, 2012)

Just what my guts tell me:


*22mp* - I expect a few more MP from Canon for the 5D line (though I don't think I want them)
*61pt AF* - Nope, will not happen. Rather a variant of the 7D or 1D4 focus system, if at all...
*7.5fps (this I’ve only seen once)* - With a single DIGIC processor? It's not going to work. 5 fps, if we are lucky. The 5D line is not a speed line
*DIGIC 5* - probably, maybe even the 5+ processor
*New Battery Grip with Joystick* - Probable after we've seen those images a few days ago. And I'd really love that
*GPS Ready* - Would be nice - but what is meant? internal BT-adapter, over the USB port, ... ?

Anyway, I believe we will see the new 5D3 somewhere closer to Photokina, around July/August.


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## VirtualRain (Jan 29, 2012)

It's clear to me that even the fools who are trolling these rumors are out of touch with the market. Let's face it, the market for a 5DII replacement consists primarily of wedding, studio, or landscape/travel photographers and videographers. These people don't care about fps or Servo AI focus (which requires 50+ AF points)! No... these folks need ISO, dynamic range, and a few focus points spread out on the rule of thirds that work in low light. So, either the rumor trolls, Canon, or both, are completely out of touch with the market for a 5DII replacement. I personally hope it's just the rumor trolls that have it all wrong.


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## capertillar (Jan 29, 2012)

lets be realistic here, for canon, its all about the bottom line. ALL they care about is improving sales and making more money. how they plan to achieve that ultimate goal is hidden in their secret board meetings and such, but outfitting the 5dm2 successor with features that go beyond what the market perceives the 5dm2 is limited to, well, thats certainly one way to break out of the "mold" and sell more units 

ultimately, what im interested to see is how the 5dm2 successor will differ from the 7d successor... afterall, another concern for canon would be cannibalizing their own sales, in this case, the 7d sales, so in order to avoid that, i too agree that 7.5 fps is highly unlikely and 61 AF points is likely overstated, etc etc...


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## Supreme (Jan 29, 2012)

This place is starting to make Macrumors look tame. I really didn't think that was possible!


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## CanonGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

If those specs are going to be real now, then I liked to change my 7D to 5D3


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## Kernuak (Jan 29, 2012)

VirtualRain said:


> It's clear to me that even the fools who are trolling these rumors are out of touch with the market. Let's face it, the market for a 5DII replacement consists primarily of wedding, studio, or landscape/travel photographers and videographers. These people don't care about fps or Servo AI focus (which requires 50+ AF points)! No... these folks need ISO, dynamic range, and a few focus points spread out on the rule of thirds that work in low light. So, either the rumor trolls, Canon, or both, are completely out of touch with the market for a 5DII replacement. I personally hope it's just the rumor trolls that have it all wrong.



At the moment, the main photographers are wedding, studio and landscape/travel, but the main repeating complaint is the autofocus and how it is so much worse than the D700. If Canon correct this and up the frame rate, the improved image quality of the full frame sensor over crop opens up the market for sports and wildlife too. At the moment, I use the 7D for wildlife and the 5D MkII where image quality is more important, i.e. landscape and macro and where I have low light. If the focus and frame rate was improved by the 5D MkIII (or by another line), then I would use that for most things, unless I needed the extra reach provided by the 7D. The 1D-X has already shown how Canon are willing to move the sports and wildlife photography from a 1.3x crop to full frame, so it's a logical progression. However, that doesn't mean they will actually do that, only time will tell.


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## briansquibb (Jan 29, 2012)

Just to remind everyone:

1Ds3 specs:

45 point AF (not quite 1D4 level but close)
21mp ff (same as 5DII)
5fps

If this was in the 5DII (with its superior high ISO - 1DS3 max is 1600) that would make a very nice camera. It would take little development to implement (essentially engineering and firmware) - and not treading on any other cameras market place.


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## Kernuak (Jan 29, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Just to remind everyone:
> 
> 1Ds3 specs:
> 
> ...



Which is why a number of the higher profile wildlife photographers had both the 1D MkIII/IV and 1Ds MkIII, so that they had the option of better image quality/size, when the reach wasn't a problem. I know of one Pro Nikon photgrapher who got the D300 for the reverse reason, but expressed irritation that the full frame rate wasn't available without the battery grip and that he wouldn't have bothered if he'd realised.


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## Flake (Jan 29, 2012)

As I remember Canon is stuck with its autofocs points because of the flash system which only has compatability with a few variations - from digital picture "The Canon Speedlite 580EX II Flash's AF-Assist Beam is aligned with the focus points on all of Canon's EOS bodies - with 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, or 45 AF points. " I'm unsure of how relevant this is when the 7D has 19 or the 1Dx with 61, however the Nikon D700 currently has 51 points and that's not going to go down, a 45 point system still leaves Canon with fewer points, where the 61 point might give them an advantage and still leave enough space between the 1Dx & a Canon 5D MkIII. This is especially relevant if Canon drop the 1Ds line and Nikon moves the D800 to 36MP. 

Imagine a not unreasonable spec for the D800 with 36MP, 51 point AF, where is Canons advantage going to come from? Although most buyers at this level won't be buying a first camera, Canon is not going to let its lead slip in every area, and although the 22MP sensor may give better noise and dynamic range, that's not something which makes the spec sheet. I'm unsure about the 7.5fps, the 1Dx can manage 11 with 18MP, but I gather that is because of mechanical limitations, not electronic, so it might well be possible. It's untrue that landscape photographers don't need fps, a hand held HDR always benefits from it being faster.


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## briansquibb (Jan 29, 2012)

Flake said:


> As I remember Canon is stuck with its autofocs points because of the flash system which only has compatability with a few variations - from digital picture "The Canon Speedlite 580EX II Flash's AF-Assist Beam is aligned with the focus points on all of Canon's EOS bodies - with 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, or 45 AF points. " I'm unsure of how relevant this is when the 7D has 19 or the 1Dx with 61, however the Nikon D700 currently has 51 points and that's not going to go down, a 45 point system still leaves Canon with fewer points, where the 61 point might give them an advantage and still leave enough space between the 1Dx & a Canon 5D MkIII. This is especially relevant if Canon drop the 1Ds line and Nikon moves the D800 to 36MP.



I read the 1DX specs as being 45 active and 16 assist points - which ties in nicely with what you are saying


----------



## Pyrenees (Jan 29, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Producing a camera that sells well and makes a ton of money is what its about. Selling a 100K 1DX cameras does not make the profit like selling 1 million 5D MK III's. Reducing the 1DX sales by 10% is not a concern.



That is a very good point.

I really would not be surprised if the rumoured specs for the 5d III are spot on.


----------



## MazV-L (Jan 29, 2012)

VirtualRain said:


> It's clear to me that even the fools who are trolling these rumors are out of touch with the market. Let's face it, the market for a 5DII replacement consists primarily of wedding, studio, or landscape/travel photographers and videographers. These people don't care about fps or Servo AI focus (which requires 50+ AF points)! No... these folks need ISO, dynamic range, and a few focus points spread out on the rule of thirds that work in low light. So, either the rumor trolls, Canon, or both, are completely out of touch with the market for a 5DII replacement. I personally hope it's just the rumor trolls that have it all wrong.


 
Maybe the specs are right but the model name wrong, not 5Diii, something else....


----------



## Picsfor (Jan 29, 2012)

OK, let's put some of this 7th Feb stuff to bed, or seriously discredit it.

*Focus on Imaging 2012*

Sunday 4th- Wednesday 7th March
109 We are pleased to announce that Canon will be exhibiting at Focus on Imaging 2012.

Come and visit us on stand L26, where we will be showcasing our fantastic range of Digital SLR cameras, including the recently launched EOS-1D X *and the award winning and highly coveted EOS 5D Mark II. *

Note the above from the Canon UK site about its appearance at Focus in March?

They make a big issue of 'showcasing the 5DII

They put it on a par with the 1DX, (which should have open CF slots to get sample images with)

Either Canon are very good with their keeping a secret, or they are not about to make an announcement any time soon. If they are - it will be the outline specs of the 5D2/ 7D replacement, nothing to actually show.


----------



## Kernuak (Jan 29, 2012)

Picsfor said:


> OK, let's put some of this 7th Feb stuff to bed, or seriously discredit it.
> 
> *Focus on Imaging 2012*
> 
> ...


Assuming the media person who wrote that knows of course, who knows where they are in the Canon pecking order or if it was even written by a Canon employee. Also, it doesn't preclude the announcement of a new line. There have been a number of examples in the last couple of years where the old model has remained as an active product for a while after a new model is released. Again, until we hear otherwise it's all speculation either way.


----------



## photogaz (Jan 29, 2012)

I agree but why are they showcasing a 3 year old camera at the show. That too doesn't make sense.

The camera that was caught on Safari (let's call it the new 5D) almost certainly will have an excellent AF system. Why on earth would you take a 9 point camera on Safari to test, it doesn't make sense.


----------



## Deeohuu (Jan 29, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Deeohuu said:
> 
> 
> > Actually his hints fit these specs pretty well. He was misinterpreted to hint at higher resolution but he did not. And he did not call it a 5D III. If anything he hinted it was a union of the 5D and 7D line.
> ...



He has an interesting reputation. He drives people crazy but he is one of the most informed forum participant I've seen on most forums with regard to industry trends and if you know his batting average he is very credible - but he doesn't say as much people read into his posts. He seems to have a special interest in Canon and is up front that he has to be very careful of what he says due to an NDA agreement. He did say the speculated specs seemed close but he believed one detail was wrong. But he did not refer to one specific spec list and there are several variation even in that thread. He did confirm the grip in the pictures was not integrated ;D (duh!) but he was even careful to say that can be derived from the photos to abide by his NDA (and he postulated that the Canon employee may now be the hunted rather than the hunter on the game reserve) ;D.


----------



## Wrathwilde (Jan 29, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Wrathwilde said:
> 
> 
> > - I also expect we won't see any more than a doubling of the ISO speed, probably up to 12,800, but much more usable and probably software limited just to keep it from eating into the 1D X sales. Hopefully we'll see a nice jump in the DR too. But expect the 1D X to trounce the 5DMK3 when it comes to low light and DR performance, even if Canon has to kneecap the upper ISO select-ability of the 5DMK3 to do so. I don't think Canon will let the selectable ISO be anywhere near the 51,200 of the 1D X, even if the noise levels for the two look identical up to 12,800... the 5DMK3 will just not have anything higher available.
> ...



You misunderstand me, I'm not talking about crippling sensor performance, I'm sure it will be phenomenal, it's just they will impose a limit to the selectable ISO. Who knows it may even remain exactly where it is for select-ability, just that the resulting images will all be much more useable.

And yes Canon has crippled performance of cameras by not including a robust firmware. See the following link. The 300D has the same sensor as the 10D, but the 300D was firmware limited to 1600 ISO and the 10D to 3200 ISO. A firmware hack was all that was needed to reclaim the 3200 ISO on the 300D, and other functions that had been left out.

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digital/digital_rebel_firmware_hack.html


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## traveller (Jan 29, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I read the 1DX specs as being 45 active and 16 assist points - which ties in nicely with what you are saying



Where did you read that on the 1D X spec list? Canon dropped the whole 'non-selectable AF assist points' from the 1D Mk4, probably because most everyone complained about it from the MkIII generation. I can't see them reintroducing this unpopular move on the 1D X and I've seen nothing in their literature that suggests to me that they will. 

Maybe I've missed something?


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 29, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I read the 1DX specs as being 45 active and 16 assist points - which ties in nicely with what you are saying



Sorry, you read wrong. They are all 'active' although the number that act as cross-type varies with the lens attached, and of course, a C.Fn can limit the number of selectable points.


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## Picsfor (Jan 29, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I read the 1DX specs as being 45 active and 16 assist points - which ties in nicely with what you are saying



I can vouch for them all being actively selectable - because i've selected them all, but it takes a while.
I wasn't alone in trying that out - but thankfully the AF menu allows you to select groups of AF points to narrow the region you're working in.

Whilst not covering 'every' permutation, i think the 1DX covers pretty much most useful choices.


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## heron88 (Jan 29, 2012)

Don't know if this has been brought up, but February 7 fits nicely as all the rebates on Powershots, lenses, and DSLR combos end February 4th. Just a thought...


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## SDsc0rch (Jan 29, 2012)

jumping in wayyyy at the end of this thread

no, i haven't read all nine pages!lol

but... referring to the new pics out of africa (aperture academy - possible new 5d3) - seems to me there are TWO cameras in those pictures

this one (same basic layout as 5d2/7D) and this one (totally new arrangement)

has there been any speculation on what the second camera is??


----------



## Rank_90 (Jan 29, 2012)

SDsc0rch said:


> jumping in wayyyy at the end of this thread
> 
> no, i haven't read all nine pages!lol
> 
> ...



Wow well spotted mate. I didnt even notce the straps are different. 

Well done!

+1


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## briansquibb (Jan 29, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > I read the 1DX specs as being 45 active and 16 assist points - which ties in nicely with what you are saying
> ...



My wrong - sorry about the confusion


----------



## photogaz (Jan 29, 2012)

SDsc0rch said:


> jumping in wayyyy at the end of this thread
> 
> no, i haven't read all nine pages!lol
> 
> ...



I thought it was established that one is the 1D X and the other is the possible new 5D


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## briansquibb (Jan 29, 2012)

photogaz said:


> SDsc0rch said:
> 
> 
> > jumping in wayyyy at the end of this thread
> ...



Second one is a series 1 layout - so most likely a 1DX


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 29, 2012)

Rank_90 said:


> SDsc0rch said:
> 
> 
> > jumping in wayyyy at the end of this thread
> ...



Well done, indeed. You two are about the 56th and 57th, respectively, to post about 'discovering' this on CR alone.


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## SDsc0rch (Jan 29, 2012)

hahahaha! yep!

now that i've read around (this isn't the only thread on this topic) i've seen other ppl have also made that observation

i registered to this site just to post that!lol

i just got a 7D and i'm really liking it - and with the 5d3 release possibly around the corner.. its just kindof an exciting time 

good looking camera, whatever this thing is - maybe "someday" i'll be able to afford it!!


----------



## Canon-F1 (Jan 29, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Well done, indeed. You two are about the 56th and 57th, respectively, to post about 'discovering' this on CR alone.



there are more intelligent people out there then you would think.....


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## well_dunno (Jan 29, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> 22MP is really horrifying news. I will not buy that. Compared to my mk2 I need higher dynamic range, better high ISO performance and higher resolution. I think 48 MP would have been a good choice. Perhaps I will have to consider to switch to D800 if it is really 36MP.
> I have no understanding what so ever for those who wants better dynamics and ISO performance but not higher resolution when it's clearly better with the better dynamics, ISO performance AND higher resolution. You must be stupid if you want 2 of 3 improvements instead of all 3.
> 
> The specification also doesn't make sense. I don't see the market segment between 1DX and 7D. What we need is high resolution, high dynamic range, high ISO performance and no banding. Of couse also improved AF compared to mk2. High speed isn't important since that area is covered by 1DX and 7D. Anyway with 48MP (or 36MP) there would have been possible to make a crop mode with higher speed.



I believe better DR and ISO performance are preferred by many considering higher resolution generally deteriorates ISO performance (keeping the sensor size the same with higher resolution causing higher noise). Basicly "if we can have two, those should be the two" kind of statement IMO. Especially if bigger prints are not needed... Thus I do not see anything stupid about that...

Cheers!


----------



## waving_odd (Jan 29, 2012)

well_dunno said:


> Tuggen said:
> 
> 
> > 22MP is really horrifying news. I will not buy that. Compared to my mk2 I need higher dynamic range, better high ISO performance and higher resolution. I think 48 MP would have been a good choice. Perhaps I will have to consider to switch to D800 if it is really 36MP.
> ...



Well-Dunno, it is well-said!


----------



## Axilrod (Jan 29, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> 22MP is really horrifying news. I will not buy that. Compared to my mk2 I need higher dynamic range, better high ISO performance and higher resolution. I think 48 MP would have been a good choice. Perhaps I will have to consider to switch to D800 if it is really 36MP.
> I have no understanding what so ever for those who wants better dynamics and ISO performance but not higher resolution when it's clearly better with the better dynamics, ISO performance AND higher resolution. You must be stupid if you want 2 of 3 improvements instead of all 3.
> 
> The specification also doesn't make sense. I don't see the market segment between 1DX and 7D. What we need is high resolution, high dynamic range, high ISO performance and no banding. Of couse also improved AF compared to mk2. High speed isn't important since that area is covered by 1DX and 7D. Anyway with 48MP (or 36MP) there would have been possible to make a crop mode with higher speed.



So how horrified were you when the 1DX was only 18MP?


----------



## waving_odd (Jan 29, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> I talking about a 22MP sensor vs a 48MP with the same dynamic range and *high* ISO performance



Do you mind reminding us which production or rumored FF model(s) that has/have both 22+ in MP resolution and _*high*_ ISO performance?

Nikon D3x? Its ISO 1600??

Nikon D800 and its rumored ISO 6400??


----------



## Kernuak (Jan 29, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> Axilrod said:
> 
> 
> > Tuggen said:
> ...


Increased resolution results in increased noise. While technology has resulted in improvements with each sensor generation, there are limits. Most people are looking at full frame sensors for cleaner and sharper images. Another disadvantage of 48MP, would be the high pixel density (higher than the 7D). Higher pixel densities result in greater diffraction limitations, due to the effect of Airy Disks, which cause interference with small pixels, resulting in increased affects by diffraction, which softens the image at smaller apertures. Landscape photographers in particular use smaller apertures, so the diffraction limit starts affecting overall image quality, thus negating one of the important reasons for them going with a full frame sensor. Even medium format cameras, with their larger sensors are only around 40MP, so 46MP in a DSLR would be pusing the boundaries.


----------



## wickidwombat (Jan 29, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> 22MP is really horrifying news. I will not buy that. Compared to my mk2 I need higher dynamic range, better high ISO performance and higher resolution. I think 48 MP would have been a good choice. Perhaps I will have to consider to switch to D800 if it is really 36MP.
> I have no understanding what so ever for those who wants better dynamics and ISO performance but not higher resolution when it's clearly better with the better dynamics, ISO performance AND higher resolution. You must be stupid if you want 2 of 3 improvements instead of all 3.
> 
> The specification also doesn't make sense. I don't see the market segment between 1DX and 7D. What we need is high resolution, high dynamic range, high ISO performance and no banding. Of couse also improved AF compared to mk2. High speed isn't important since that area is covered by 1DX and 7D. Anyway with 48MP (or 36MP) there would have been possible to make a crop mode with higher speed.


DITTO! and perhaps they can make a new 5-500mm f2 Lens as a kit all for $2000


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## Wrathwilde (Jan 29, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> I have no understanding what so ever for those who wants better dynamics and ISO performance but not higher resolution when it's clearly better with the better dynamics, ISO performance AND higher resolution. You must be stupid if you want 2 of 3 improvements instead of all 3.



Donny you're out of your element!

Unless there is some tremendous new breakthrough that negates the laws of physics... you only get to pick two. 

If you want amazing DR and ISO performance then you have to sacrifice Resolution. 

If you want high ISO and Resolution then your DR is really going to suffer. 

If you want DR and Resolution then you're going to have to take a hit on ISO. 

Sure we would like all three, but until we can negate the laws of physics in regards to CMOS sensors, you only get to pick two priorities, or a compromising balance of all three, and that's exactly what the 1D X supposedly is, the sweet spot between all three.

I suggest you read up on how CMOS sensors actually work, there are actually physical limits to the photon collecting ability. But the gist is... the smaller the pixel, the less light it will take in, and consequently a lower ISO.

Sensor Technology - http://dpbestflow.org/camera/sensor 

Fundamentals of Image Sensor Technology - http://www.cse.wustl.edu/~jain/cse567-11/ftp/imgsens/index.html


See for yourself that higher resolution can cause diffraction that actually lessens the image quality...


----------



## bigblue1ca (Jan 29, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> *You must be stupid if* you want 2 of 3 improvements instead of all 3.



Wow, talk about how not to make friends and influence people.


----------



## Kahuna (Jan 30, 2012)

Wrathwilde said:


> Tuggen said:
> 
> 
> > I have no understanding what so ever for those who wants better dynamics and ISO performance but not higher resolution when it's clearly better with the better dynamics, ISO performance AND higher resolution. You must be stupid if you want 2 of 3 improvements instead of all 3.
> ...



+1 Thank you Wrathwilde


----------



## BDD (Jan 30, 2012)

bigblue1ca said:


> Tuggen said:
> 
> 
> > *You must be stupid if* you want 2 of 3 improvements instead of all 3.
> ...



OUCH!! Not cool thing to say to any one.

For me I want "high ISO + DR". I would be happy if the MP on the 5D3 is still 21MP. I thought the same way about the D3s when it was first introduced. It only has 12MP but does everything else I want (no I didn't buy it). Now we have the D4 and the 1D-X. 2 great sports/photo-journalism shooters. Which comes out ahead in practice...we'll have to wait and see.

I was so hoping the D800 wouldn't be high MP "focused" but it is. Sacrificing low-light shoot-ability. Plus it's priced too high for both versions IMHO. So my money is on the 5D3...just hoping it borrows the native ISO range of the 1D-X offering 100-51,200 (or a max of 204,xxx). If not...then D3s vs. D4 vs. 1D-X.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 30, 2012)

Wrathwilde said:


> Donny you're out of your element!
> 
> Unless there is some tremendous new breakthrough that negates the laws of physics... you only get to pick two.
> 
> ...



No, no it does not have to.
The 7D actually has BETTER DR per area of sensor than the 5D2 by a little bit....
Some P&S shoot have had better SNR per sensor area than some of the DSLR.

To fix up low ISO DR Canon needs to fix their read noise, less random read noise and a lot less banding noise.

High iso middle gray SNR might get a touch worse with a higher MP sensor than a lower one but with the sorts of difference we talk about here in terms of MP I doubt that it would cost more than 1/3 stop.




> See for yourself that higher resolution can cause diffraction that actually lessens the image quality...



That's a terribly misleading demonstration of diffraction, that just shows that the point where you can't maximize what you can best get out of the sensor hits earlier but it implies that you actually do worse in the general sense of a normalized comparison even though you do not do worse from diffraction with the higher MP camera. Shoot the same scene with the same lens at the same f-stop and you never pull in worse detail with the higher MP sensor be it f/1.4 or f/64. It may be that you don't pull in any extra detail once you are at f/64 but you won't do worse and you will pull more detail at lower f-stops and dont; forget that the limit is not a hard limit you slowly gain less and less EXTRA detail the higher you raise the f-stop.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 30, 2012)

Deeohuu said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Deeohuu said:
> ...



Yes, most of us are probably read into his hints wrong. If I ignore them and pick among
22MP, 18MP, 32MP, 6fps, 7.5fps, 7D AF, 7D+ AF, 7D++ AF,1DX AF then the most sensible guess to me might be:

32MP, 6fps, with 7D+ AF

Some are counting the zoom box dimensions and size of the mini location finder dot in the box and finding 30MP counts much easier to come up with than 22MP counts and much, much easier than 18MP counts, but that is dicey going.

(if not that, then I would say 18MP, 7.5 fps, 7D++ AF but the above seems more likely to me)


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 30, 2012)

Wrathwilde said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Wrathwilde said:
> ...



OK true yeah they have crippled it in that way. Although that really only cripples jpg and video since you do better pushing RAW from lower ISO than using those top settings anyway (granted, it makes reading the histogram and trickier and in camera image review looks dark and nasty when you under expose and then push in post).


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## Wrathwilde (Jan 30, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Wrathwilde said:
> 
> 
> > Donny you're out of your element!
> ...



From what I've read on DxOMark the 5DII beats the 7D in DR at every ISO level with a final score of 11.9 vs the 7D's 11.7. 

What did the 7D give up to achieve it's higher pixel count per square mm while maintaining a high DR, oh yeah ISO quality. Look at the DxOMark Sports Score, this is their criteria...

"Sports Score is based on Low-Light ISO performance (values in ISO index). Low-Light ISO indicates the highest ISO sensitivity to which your camera can be set while maintaining a high quality, low-noise image (based on a Signal-to-Noise-Ratio [SNR] of 30dB, a dynamic range of 9EVs and a color depth of 18bits)."

The 5DII reached 1815 ISO before falling below that quality threshold. The 7D only reached 854 ISO before falling below the same quality threshold.

So yes, the 7D did manage to get close to the 5DII's DR levels and upped the resolution per square mm, but it came at the expense of ISO performance. 

I will admit the diffraction limit example wasn't the best... but it was the best I could find in the limited time I had before heading off to watch the Pro Bowl.

Cheers,
Wrathwilde

Also where are you getting the info that some P&S have a better signal to noise than DSLR? I haven't run across that yet. Not saying that it's not true, but what good is it if the rest of image quality isn't there?


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## Wrathwilde (Jan 30, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> The 7D outperforms the 5Dmk2 at high ISO image quality per area sensor.
> A 7D sensor scaled to FF at 46MP would have better image performance than 5Dmk2 in every aspect.



You keep saying that, where's your proof? I think it's clear that the 7D gave up ISO performance to hit the DR numbers it did. DxO labs is probably the most respected independent lab out there, and their tests show that the 7D is not even close to the 5DII in ISO quality. 

Again, the 5DII hits *1815 ISO* before falling below acceptable quality.

The 7D is only able to hit *854 ISO* before falling below acceptable quality.

The 7D does a decent job, but it in no way "outperforms" the 5DII in ISO quality.

So show me the proof, or I write you off as a troll.

And, no, at best a 46mp FF sensor based on the 7D would perform at the level of the 7D, possibly more noise issues cropping up from the larger size. It would still be subpar to the image quality of the 5DII in every category. The trade off might be ok for you, but some of us actually want better quality at high ISO, and a 7D equivalent FF sensor doesn't cut it.

Sensor Scores 5DII 7D *Bold type denotes winner in each category*

Over all Score *79* 66

Color Depth (bits) *23.7* 22

Dynamic Range *11.9* 11.7

Low Light ISO *1815* 854

Edit - to include other DxOMark scores for the 5DII and 7D


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## briansquibb (Jan 30, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> The 7D outperforms the 5Dmk2 at high ISO image quality per area sensor.
> A 7D sensor scaled to FF at 46MP would have better image performance than 5Dmk2 in every aspect.



I must write to Canon and tell them that they made a mistake in reducing the mpd from 21 to 18 as it will reduce the performance below that of the 5DII.

I will tell them that they should be looking to a 46 mps ff and all their high iso/low noise issues will go away


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## Wrathwilde (Jan 30, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I must write to Canon and tell them that they made a mistake in reducing the mpd from 21 to 18 as it will reduce the performance below that of the 5DII.
> 
> I will tell them that they should be looking to a 46 mps ff and all their high iso/low noise issues will go away



I applaud you sir, a good laugh was had. But why limit it to 46 mps ff, obviously more is better, the more pixels you have... the more light you can gather, right? So I'm thinking tell Canon to shoot for the moon - 1,800MP Full Frame, if the 1D X can hit 204,000 ISO at 18MP, then a 1,800MP full frame sensor should be able to hit 20,400,000 ISO. The DR would be amazing too, because everybody knows that image quality goes up across the board when you increase the megapixels.

The trade offs in MP/ISO/DR up until now have just been a conspiracy to increase sales by leap frogging the competition. Canon, Sony and Nikon are all sitting on the perfect High Megapixel, HDR, million ISO sensor... with no noise, all these tradeoffs are just inside jokes they're playing on their customers.

Cheers,
Wrathwilde


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 30, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> A 7D sensor scaled to FF at 46MP would have better image performance than 5Dmk2 in every aspect.



Fine. The prototype 120 MP APS-H sensor scaled to medium format at 495 MP will outperform a 7D sensor scaled to FF at 46 MP. It will probably outperform any other _imaginary_ sensor, too. Who cares?


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## briansquibb (Jan 30, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Tuggen said:
> 
> 
> > A 7D sensor scaled to FF at 46MP would have better image performance than 5Dmk2 in every aspect.
> ...



Wow - is that the Feb 7 announcement ?? ??? ??? ???


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 30, 2012)

Wrathwilde said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Wrathwilde said:
> ...



per area
not talking per entire sensor

all the DSLR blow away P&S per entire sensor area, but some P&S are better per area, the thing is they have wayyyyyy less total area to collect light

And sure the 5D2, if you shoot with the same settings, has less noise than the 7D across the entire frame in total.

dxo does appear to show the 5D2 still having a bit better SNR per area than the 7D although some other measurements showed the 7D a trace ahead

dxo shows them tied for DR per area at low ISO, some other sites had 7D a trace ahead

But that just shows that even a 48MP FF could easily have the same DR and nearly the same SNR, never mind a 30MP FF.


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## briansquibb (Jan 30, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> And sure the 5D2, if you shoot with the same settings, has less noise than the 7D across the entire frame in total.
> 
> dxo does appear to show the 5D2 still having a bit better SNR per area than the 7D although some other measurements showed the 7D a trace ahead
> 
> ...



As iso under 400 is not important - who cares that the 7D marginally beats the 5D.

The important measurement is at higher iso when noise starts creeping in and the IQ starts to fall - then you see the 7D fall away


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 30, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> per area
> not talking per entire sensor
> 
> all the DSLR blow away P&S per entire sensor area, but some P&S are better per area, the thing is they have wayyyyyy less total area to collect light



But again...so what? We're taking pictures - the summed output of all the pixles - not looking at the output of individual pixels. Some of the detectors I use in the lab have read noise and DR that completely blow away any CCD or CMOS sensor - but those are PMTs, essentially one giant pixel. So, who cares? 

You do a good job of refuting your own argument - if a P&S is better than a dSLR per unit area but that 'advantage' is negated by the smaller area, the same logic holds when comparing the 7D to the 5DII - the larger sensor area trumps the putative better per-pixel performance.

Unless you can wave a magic wand and 'grow' the 7D sensor to FF size, the 5DII is the winner.


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## K-amps (Jan 30, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Well done, indeed. You two are about the 56th and 57th, respectively, to post about 'discovering' this on CR alone.



ROFL! ;D

I gave almost everyone on this thread a +1 applaud, especially lensrightin dude who gets a lot of smites for saying his mind, and to everyone one else as well who is excited about the 5d3, it's been a fun thread to read. Thanks guys!

You get one too John for your wit


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## K-amps (Jan 30, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> 22MP is really horrifying news. I will not buy that. Compared to my mk2 I need higher dynamic range, better high ISO performance and higher resolution. I think 48 MP would have been a good choice. Perhaps I will have to consider to switch to D800 if it is really 36MP.
> I have no understanding what so ever for those who wants better dynamics and ISO performance but not higher resolution when it's clearly better with the better dynamics, ISO performance AND higher resolution. You must be stupid if you want 2 of 3 improvements instead of all 3.
> 
> The specification also doesn't make sense. I don't see the market segment between 1DX and 7D. What we need is high resolution, high dynamic range, high ISO performance and no banding. Of couse also improved AF compared to mk2. High speed isn't important since that area is covered by 1DX and 7D. Anyway with 48MP (or 36MP) there would have been possible to make a crop mode with higher speed.



+1 Applaud to you too for making me laugh.  I nearly fell off my chair.


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## well_dunno (Jan 30, 2012)

Phase one IQ140 digital back - solution (for £10K)


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## Picsfor (Jan 30, 2012)

Blimey - what do you lot do for fun?

It's a bloody camera that takes pictures.

Would some one please set up a Pixel Peepers Rumours so you can all go and argue a toss all day about matters almost as difficult to understand as Stephen Hawkins take on a Quantum Universe.

Issues such as AF, Ergonomics, Practical value of more MP's or higher ISO range and so on - these should be what we're talking about - not whether any discernable difference can be found in noise between 2 different sensors under an electron microscope! :-X


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## Kernuak (Jan 30, 2012)

Tuggen said:


> Wrathwilde said:
> 
> 
> > Tuggen said:
> ...



Photography isn't just about technical specifications. I just read an article on Luminous Landscape that someone linked to in one of these threads and it reaffirmed some of my thoughts over the years. Lens reviews often don't show the real world, they may comment on how sharp lens x is compared to lens y, but they don't always look at real world images and other equally (sometimes moreso) important aspects of lens characteristics, such as bokeh and contrast (especially where it counts). To paraphrase the article, why have a sharp lens, if it makes the out of focus areas look even worse than they are already. Ok, it isn't the sharpest lens in the Canon arsenal, but the bokeh on the 100-400 makes me feel ill when I look at certain backgrounds (green woodland for example), that is rarely mentioned in the reviews and you find out when you try it for yourself. That is the important thing. Taking that onto the differences between the 7d and the 5d MkII, the facts and figures don't always match what I see and I think even the DxO stats don't do the 5D justice. To my eye, the usable dynamic range is significantly greater in the 5D MkII than the 7D. What the stats don't show, is that when the highlights on the 7D are blown, they start to get a colour cast, granted, it was improved by an early firmware update, but it isn't completely fixed. Likewise, the shadow detail might show lower noise in the stats, but the detail is greater on the 5D MkII. Conversely, the DxO technical data shows that the 5D MkII has a greater usable ISO, however, it doesn't show the quality of the noise. Yes, the 7D is noiser to my eye, but up to a point (i.e. when there is a lot of it or the detail is being lost), that noise is more pleasing to the eye. Many have described the noise on the 7D as more film like and while not completely accurate, it does have some truth. On a related note, when the noise gets too high on the 5D MkII, you get banding, which has been pretty much eliminated on the 7D. Banding looks pretty awful and is unusable, it was something I used to hate about the 40D, which suffered from the same problem. Again, when compared to the 1D MkIV, this is missed on the technical data. DxO shows that the 5D MkII has less noise than the 1D MkIV, yet many reviews when the 1D MkIV was released indicated there was little in it. Again, while I haven't used the 1D MkIV, so can't comment personally, the technical data doesn't seem to indicate what is seen in real life, based on those reviews.
In summary, what I'm basically saying is, don't always believe the technical data that is available, it may not tell the whole story or it may be of little relevance in the real world. Look at the technical data by all means as a guide, but then see things for yourself to see if a) it matters to you and b) your eyes see the same problem (or advantage) that the technical data might show.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > per area
> ...



Duh what do you think a 36MP 5D3 would be? A higher density FF than the 5D2. And what magic wand? There is plenty of talk that SOny/Nikon have 'grown a high density APS-C sensor' to FF size, the scale difference there is no so crazy that you need a magic wand to make it happen. The simple point is that high photosite density doesn't mean any terrible loss of DR or SNR so long as you don't go to crazy extremes.

And even now the 5D2 isn't the winner when you are 100% reach limited, that may be rare for many photographers but a not uncommon circumstance for others. I have both and use the appropriate one for the job as required.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 31, 2012)

Kernuak said:


> Tuggen said:
> 
> 
> > Wrathwilde said:
> ...



It is true that despite all the banding naysayers things like banding differences are often real world noticeable before the often minor SNR and DR differences between models of reasonably similar technology.

Even taking entire sensor area into account the 7D will sometimes produce more pleasing photos at ISO3200 than the 5D2, when most of the image consists of very, very, very dark areas because then most of the image lies in teh very depths and the fact that the 5D2 bands more at high iso than the 7D, can in a few cases, make the 7D do better even taking the entire identically framed images into account.

The 7D often has vertical banding though which hurts it's SNR ratings a bit and kinks the SNR curve oddly. THis does vary quite a bit copy to copy some have this a lot more than others and it tends to vary in degree in different parts of the frame on any given body. I've never seen a bigger copy to copy difference with the CAnon bodies than with the 7D and vertical banding. It's gain rather than offset banding.

The 5D2 has more offset banding in deep low iso shadows than 1Ds3. Converters tend to handle it muchbetter than when the camera was first introduced though.

SOme of the recent sony/nikon sensor has less read noise and banding and not just a lot more low iso DR but a lot more usable low ISO DR. You can also see that it depended not at all on teh MP count but only on whether the new column ADC system was used or not.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 31, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> There is plenty of talk that SOny/Nikon have 'grown a high density APS-C sensor' to FF size...



Ah yes, there sure is plenty of talk. So...you've seen this sensor in use? You've tested it's performance? You know that the theoretical scaling of increased pixel density and application of other signal processing circuitry will yield performance gains relative to a FF sensor with fewer MP? Or is this just all just more of that warm, moist mixture of nitrogen, carbon dioxide, oxygen, and trace gases being modulated by vocal folds as it's exhaled?


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## briansquibb (Jan 31, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > There is plenty of talk that SOny/Nikon have 'grown a high density APS-C sensor' to FF size...
> ...



;D ;D ;D ;D Or methane from a bovine source ;D ;D ;D ;D


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## moroz (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello,
someone told me that the 5DMIII sensor will be shift stabilized in order to accomodate people who use non-stabilized prime lenses for handheld video...
is it possible?? it would be a great advantage for documentarians!!


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## JR (Feb 1, 2012)

moroz said:


> Hello,
> someone told me that the 5DMIII sensor will be shift stabilized in order to accomodate people who use non-stabilized prime lenses for handheld video...
> is it possible?? it would be a great advantage for documentarians!!



Do you know what was their source for this info moroz? Like which website or magazine this info comes from? I never heard of such thing but I am curious...

Jacques


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## moroz (Feb 1, 2012)

no  he just told me that he read it somewhere on the net...


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## thatguyyoulove (Feb 1, 2012)

moroz said:


> Hello,
> someone told me that the 5DMIII sensor will be shift stabilized in order to accommodate people who use non-stabilized prime lenses for handheld video...
> is it possible?? it would be a great advantage for documentarians!!



Having just switched from the Pentax line to Canon (due to video needs really, I prefer Pentax for photography) I would love to have this feature back. However, I doubt we will see it come to fruition with all that Canon has invested in lens IS. Lens IS does work slightly better than sensor IS, but paying for it every time you get a new lens (if you want that feature) really sucks.

That being said if you are a documentary shooter you should be using a shoulder rig NOT holding it handheld. I even use a glidecam + vest sometimes for that extra bit of smoothness.


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## mathino (Feb 1, 2012)

Am I the only person who is actually *sick* of waiting ?

I've read northlighting-images post, and there they say this _mythical_ new body _will not be_ available until october. I doubt it is ready for sale or _even announcement_ according to Canon's last year announcements (I know of natural disaster and other stuff) and everything. Look at 8-15 F/4 L USM - it took _11 months_ to start shipping.

...I'm thinking of selling my Canon gear and switching to Nikon if there won't be anything announced this month.


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## K-amps (Feb 1, 2012)

mathino said:


> Am I the only person who is actually *sick* of waiting ?
> 
> I've read northlighting-images post, and there they say this _mythical_ new body _will not be_ available until october. I doubt it is ready for sale or _even announcement_ according to Canon's last year announcements (I know of natural disaster and other stuff) and everything. Look at 8-15 F/4 L USM - it took _11 months_ to start shipping.
> 
> ...I'm thinking of selling my Canon gear and switching to Nikon if there won't be anything announced this month.



I am quite in pain as well.... and there are times I think about shill switching.... but thats an emotional response, not a rational one. Canon has some great lenses at great prices... Nikon is overpriced. In the long run, for me Canon is a better prospect. Not to mention I have accumulated most of the ammo I will need (lenses); all I need to do is sit tight and wait. The 5D2 is a great Camera... can't wait to see what the 5D3 turns out to be.


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## mathino (Feb 1, 2012)

K-amps said:


> I am quite in pain as well.... and there are times I think about shill switching.... but thats an emotional response, not a rational one. Canon has some great lenses at great prices... Nikon is overpriced. In the long run, for me Canon is a better prospect. Not to mention I have accumulated most of the ammo I will need (lenses); all I need to do is sit tight and wait. The 5D2 is a great Camera... can't wait to see what the 5D3 turns out to be.



Yeah, definitely an emotional response but, you know  And ofc Canon is cheaper in way of lenses (and we can get 70-200 f/4 for 600€ - no need to buy 70-200 VR2 like Nikon), for example my 85 f/1.8 is amazing and price was also nice. I want 28 f/1.8 to have something wide for _possible_ FF use (nice value for price).

But, I have just one EF lens and 450D so switching will not be that hard. I've allready saved money to buy FF and one wide angle lens. Hmm, dark toughts I have - I know :-D


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## Picsfor (Feb 1, 2012)

Here's an interesting thought for those thinking of switching...

If the 5D2 had an ok focusing system, would any of us even be looking for a 5D3?
Really - think about it?

The MP brigade make it clear that they will never be happy until they have sooooo many MP's that they can produce a print the size of London. But none of them swapped to the 3DX or Sony to get them extra few MP's.

The ISO brigade want to shoot a badger in its den in the dead of night - but none of them have swapped over to D3s's...

The FPS brigade have all got 7D's or 1D's.

The Portrait brigade are happy, the wedding brigade would like 'better AF' - of the AF thing again.

The DR brigade want to over ride physics - but then i wouldn't mind performing a bit of time travel either - then i could go forward and get me a 1DX34 with all our needs on it!

So, all in all - who's really screaming for a 5D3? Apart from those who would like a 5D2 with improved AF?


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## mathino (Feb 1, 2012)

A little fun I made at memegenerator


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## BDD (Feb 1, 2012)

Picsfor said:


> Here's an interesting thought for those thinking of switching...
> 
> If the 5D2 had an ok focusing system, would any of us even be looking for a 5D3?
> Really - think about it?
> ...



If the 5D2 had a good AF system and a much better native ISO range (e.g. 100-12,800 as with the D3s). Then no. The 5D2 is currently selling for 2k in Toronto. Great deal. But since it has questionable AF speed (or so I've heard) and is not known for shooting in low-light...I'm hoping Canon will make those two changes in the 5D3.

Plus, I think Canon has the best selection of quality lenses. Another reason why I'm considering jumping ship (I've been a Nikon shooter since the early 80's). That and I don't like the rumoured specs for the D800. And should the 5D3 not address the lackluster AF performance and make the 5D3 a low-light shooter...guess I'm going to have to consider either the D3s or D4 (1D-X is pushing it cost wise at 7K).

And I highly doubt Canon is going to wait till October to announce the 5D3...and let Nikon get the jump in this market segment with the D800 which is likely to be announced next week. I'd assume we will hear something from Canon this month. Soon after Nikon's announcement.


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## briansquibb (Feb 1, 2012)

Picsfor said:


> So, all in all - who's really screaming for a 5D3? Apart from those who would like a 5D2 with improved AF?



I would get one if it had

- The ability to render skin tones as well as a 1Ds3
- The DR of asa 100 film

Then the 1Ds3 would become the backup


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## wickidwombat (Feb 1, 2012)

Just some advice to anyone seriously considering switching to Nikon.
Nikon are not without their faults, before switching make sure you are happy with the controls and button layout. Once I got used to the canon system I found the Nikon system more clunky and hate some of the button placements. also that dpad on the back they have is really crap, The canon wheel and joystick blows Nikon out of the water here. Also have had the controller wheels become intermittently faulty in the past and hence making it really hard to change things like shutter speed and aperture.
As others have mentioned lenses tend to be a little more pricey however they do have a few stunning lenses
14-24, 50mm f1.4, 105 f2.8 Micro, 70-200 f2.8VR and the 200-400 to name a few


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## Kernuak (Feb 1, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> Just some advice to anyone seriously considering switching to Nikon.
> Nikon are not without their faults, before switching make sure you are happy with the controls and button layout. Once I got used to the canon system I found the Nikon system more clunky and hate some of the button placements. also that dpad on the back they have is really crap, The canon wheel and joystick blows Nikon out of the water here. Also have had the controller wheels become intermittently faulty in the past and hence making it really hard to change things like shutter speed and aperture.
> As others have mentioned lenses tend to be a little more pricey however they do have a few stunning lenses
> 14-24, 50mm f1.4, 105 f2.8 Micro, 70-200 f2.8VR and the 200-400 to name a few


The 200-400 was the one that made me drool and look into the options, perhaps not a complete switch, but seeing what I could do for low light (but the only option on that score would have been a D3s).


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## BDD (Feb 1, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> Just some advice to anyone seriously considering switching to Nikon.
> Nikon are not without their faults, before switching make sure you are happy with the controls and button layout. Once I got used to the canon system I found the Nikon system more clunky and hate some of the button placements. also that dpad on the back they have is really crap, The canon wheel and joystick blows Nikon out of the water here. Also have had the controller wheels become intermittently faulty in the past and hence making it really hard to change things like shutter speed and aperture.
> As others have mentioned lenses tend to be a little more pricey however they do have a few stunning lenses
> 14-24, 50mm f1.4, 105 f2.8 Micro, 70-200 f2.8VR and the 200-400 to name a few



Controls. I think that depends on which models you're comparing. The external controls on top of the D300/D700/D3 I think are more practical. Better ergonomics. You're able to change the ISO without taking your eye off the VF. Exposure compensation. Etc. Plus, Canon's menu system has been notorious for having too many layers. Though, newer models have the short-cut button.

I will admit Canon has 1-upped Nikon with the 1D-X mirroring controls found on the back in landscape position in portrait mode. Something the D4 still doesn't do. 

Cost of glass? In Toronto Nikon glass is "cheaper" than Canon's (e.g. their respective 70-200 f/2.8 II lenses...more than a $400 difference). So I'll have to disagree here.


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## Picsfor (Feb 1, 2012)

BDD said:


> If the 5D2 had a good AF system and a much better native ISO range (e.g. 100-12,800 as with the D3s). Then no. The 5D2 is currently selling for 2k in Toronto. Great deal. But since it has questionable AF speed (or so I've heard) and is not known for shooting in low-light...I'm hoping Canon will make those two changes in the 5D3.



Nope, 5D2 does not have questionable AF speed, nor does it have a problem focusing in low light - as long as you only focus using the centre AF point.

And there is its achilles heel - only 1 decent AF point, only 9 in total - only the centre point is a cross type AF sensor.

AI Servo is ok so long as you're not tracking a hare running from a fox! Oh, and only using centre AF point!
As for native ISO - have tested mine side by side with a D3s - and the Nikon shooter (who loves to mock Canon at every opportunity) conceded that actually the 5D2 handled itself well up to the 12800 point. Not quite up with the D3s, but not enough to justify the extra cost or switching.

I personally run with 6400 without a second thought, and have been known on many an occasion to shoot at 12800 and 25600, letting LR3 manage the noise to an acceptable level.

As some one who happily pushed film to ASA 12800, i've often wondered just what people expect from a shot at 12800? Or maybe they're just people who have never seen how grainy a picture is taken at ASA 12800? On a par, i would say the 5D2 would have to have an H3 setting to 51k to get the equivelant noise/ grain, maybe even an H4 to 102k. The 1Dx at 204k seems to give noise/ grain at no more than i got from 3200ASA pushed 1 stop...


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## Kernuak (Feb 1, 2012)

Picsfor said:


> As some one who happily pushed film to ASA 12800, i've often wondered just what people expect from a shot at 12800? Or maybe they're just people who have never seen how grainy a picture is taken at ASA 12800? On a par, i would say the 5D2 would have to have an H3 setting to 51k to get the equivelant noise/ grain, maybe even an H4 to 102k. The 1Dx at 204k seems to give noise/ grain at no more than i got from 3200ASA pushed 1 stop...



Or even how grainy a 400 ASA negative film is (albeit a run of the mill Kodak film) without pushing. That's probably why there is such as range in tolerance of noise.


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## BDD (Feb 2, 2012)

Picsfor said:


> BDD said:
> 
> 
> > If the 5D2 had a good AF system and a much better native ISO range (e.g. 100-12,800 as with the D3s). Then no. The 5D2 is currently selling for 2k in Toronto. Great deal. But since it has questionable AF speed (or so I've heard) and is not known for shooting in low-light...I'm hoping Canon will make those two changes in the 5D3.
> ...



Maybe that was it then. I know there was some quirk with the 5D2's AF. Not sure why I assumed it was the AF speed. 

Will be interesting to see the 1D-X's 61-point AF in the 5D3. One of the rumored specs. 

Just hope we won''t have to wait too long for the announcement.

As for having more native ISO...for me I think it's just good to have "just in case". I try to stay at the lower end of the ISO range when possible.


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## jm345 (Feb 2, 2012)

Well I just bought the 5DII kit with 24-105L lens with the following in mind: 
The rebate program expires Feb 4 (of course it could be extended again) so the price is currently at a low point. 
I don't need the 24-105L and will sell it, presumably lowering the net the cost of camera by $100-$200.
I will have 30 days to to decide to keep it. If Canon announces a new 5DIII in the next 30 days I will have to decide whether I am willing to pay the big bucks for the new camera, determine actual availabilty and decide if I want to wait that long, or keep the 5DII and upgrade to the 5DIII in the future.

If there is no announcement within 30 days I will keep the 5DII. Although I have the 7D, there are enough differences with the 5DII to keep me busy learning it for quite awhile. And, since I bought it at a relatively decent price I shouldn't take too much of a hit on depreciation if I sell the 5DII down the road.

Interesting how the mind can rationalize things for us. ;D


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## chengpenguin (Feb 2, 2012)

BDD said:


> Picsfor said:
> 
> 
> > BDD said:
> ...



I just hope that 5D3's AF points is a 19-pt or better. An advanced 61-pt AF system like the 1DX's is way too complex for a lightweight 5D3 that is not meant to be flagship. It will raise the cost of 5D3 significantly.

Similarly... I hope there is an improvement in native ISO. An improvement is enough for me. 2 stops is a real bonus.


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## BDD (Feb 2, 2012)

Cost? If the cost of the Nikon D800 is within $3000-$3900 (2 versions) I'm sure Canon will be pricing the 5D3 in the same region. Hopefully closer to the $3000 mark.

So if the rumor is true, and they do put the same 61-pt AF, so be it. It might be one of the factors that will make it worth the asking price. 

Too complex? I don't think so. But if not then something close to what is in the 7D. Canon can't release the 5D3 with a lesser AF than in the 7D. 

Come on CANON!! Start leaking some specs!!!  Better yet...make the announcement this month!!!


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## simonxu11 (Feb 2, 2012)

Nikon D800 leaked sample image @iso 6400
http://fstoppers.com/leak-could-this-be-the-first-leaked-file-off-the-nikon-d800-dslr
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1021&thread=40479554
full size image:
http://d1ljua7nc4hnur.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/first-leaked-image-from-D800.jpg
It looks quite good if it's real


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 7, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > There is plenty of talk that SOny/Nikon have 'grown a high density APS-C sensor' to FF size...
> ...



Ah yes, so I was just talking out my was I? Interesting real life samples from the D800 today no? 
;D


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 7, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



Seen the samples from the, actually in existence (shock!), D800 today?    ;D ;D ;D ;D


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## candyman (Feb 7, 2012)

I have read about newscoverage of the new Nikon. So there is a D800 and a D800E model (last without anti-alias filter)


Would Canon maybe release two 5D's as well?


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## noodles (Feb 7, 2012)

candyman said:


> Would Canon maybe release two 5D's as well?



I don't think so. If so, then the will name it 5D (MKIII or X) and 3D


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## AdamJ (Feb 7, 2012)

For me, the D800 announcement makes the wait for the 5D3 all the more fascinating. It seems to me that the two areas in which the 5D3 could better the D800 are high-ISO performance and processing speed (for higher FPS and cleaner image processing). If this proves to be the case, it would look very much like a reversal in Nikon's and Canon's relative marketing positions.

One thing I do feel sure about is that the D800 seems on paper to be so extremely competitive that Canon won't even have thought about crippling the 5D3 for marketing reasons.


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## K-amps (Feb 7, 2012)

AdamJ said:


> For me, the D800 announcement makes the wait for the 5D3 all the more fascinating. It seems to me that the two areas in which the 5D3 could better the D800 are high-ISO performance and processing speed (for higher FPS and cleaner image processing). If this proves to be the case, it would look very much like a reversal in Nikon's and Canon's relative marketing positions.
> 
> One thing I do feel sure about is that the D800 seems on paper to be so extremely competitive that Canon won't even have thought about crippling the 5D3 for marketing reasons.



I so much hope you are right.


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## RedEye (Feb 7, 2012)

We're all experiencing 'waiting fatigue' - indeed! However consider the following. Canon's production capacity was thrashed in a wave, a reactor, and a flood. Say they don't have anything to show for the D800 release and are scrambling to keep the lights on back home. If this is the case, their optimal strategy is to release a super awsome camera packed with every promised feature known to man - and then ship it sometime when they can catch up in september. Promises with a later very expensive fulfilment on their part. 

So either way you look at it, it's going to be an equal quality reaction to the D800 (neither of the biggest two will fall out of lockstep in any feature war so forget the 22MP game guys - it's going to be 30+MP - Game theory says so) and this will arrive in shipments in a month, or it'll be a superior reaction which will arrive in 8-12 months. Eitherway, they're on higher ground on the battle field so long as the quality of the product is delivered, as delivered, when promised


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## Picsfor (Feb 7, 2012)

candyman said:


> I have read about newscoverage of the new Nikon. So there is a D800 and a D800E model (last without anti-alias filter)
> 
> 
> Would Canon maybe release two 5D's as well?



Why? Have they got 2 left from old stock? ;D

Um, sorry - isn't this thread now a tad debunked?For almost half the world, 7th Feb is over and no new Canon camera announcement? So, the CR2 was probably for the 22mp...


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## BDD (Feb 7, 2012)

Picsfor said:


> So, the CR2 was probably for the 22mp...



...will be fact in a few weeks?  Canon doesn't need to play the MP game. Just put out a 5D3 (or "5D-X") with the most recent CR list of rumored specs + good high ISO range for $2700. Announce it this month. Make us happy!!!


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## te4o (Feb 7, 2012)

Quote:
5D X
22 mp
61pt AF with DIGIC 4
6.9 FPS
DIGIC 5 (Doesn’t say DIGIC 5 )
Announcement February 28
with 3 lens
Available April $2700
End quote.

Aren't the three mentioned lenses already here ?
I think the CR will have got it right again ! Relax folks, we won't be disappointed. There is NO 18MP 5D in the making. Anything above 21 will be just fine for 99% of work. 
This is the response to D800 and it is quite well planned - a general workhorse for the majority of shooters, a mix of both worlds: resolution & IQ for the general mix of uses. It will sell like hot cakes again if the price is as mentioned (a shudder when I saw the new lenses' price though). 
Now, enough with optimism training...


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## D_Rochat (Feb 7, 2012)

I heard that a 5DX with 24-70 ver II kit will be available for $10,000. ;D


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## stilscream (Feb 8, 2012)

When I was shopping for my first dslr, MP count was important. Now I have been trolling on here for a few weeks, I believe I am not as convinced MP count is as important as things like DR. I also was very interested in a higher fps, something you can't find on P&S easily. I definately did my homework on reviews also. I am stoked about the 5d mk III, when it does come out, I will probably be ordering one if the specs are close to true. I am anxious to go to FF from my 7d. I do a lot of wildlife, and while I will miss the crop factor, better pictures will be ultimately be more important to me. I am strictly ameature and learning. 

On another note, Canon may not have a choice in the matter of letting Nikon get a jump on the market with their D800. Canon may be more crippled from the tsunami than we realise. With tragedies like this there are more things effected than porduction plant machines, but people, too. 

This site has been giving me many hours of reading during down time at my job. Anxious, anxious, anxious for mk iii.


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## RuneL (Feb 8, 2012)

This is my POOMA-analysis of this whole thing:
The D800 is a completely new thing for Nikon. It's a huge departure from the D700 and a leap towards the 5D II. More res, lower FPS, aimed more towards video than previous models.

Look at what Canon did with the 5D II - awesome FF-resolution at a fairly low price, whereas the D700, from what I've heard said by the Nikon shooters I know, prompted people to get rid of their nikon D# or forgo it because the D700 pretty much preformed similarly with the battery grip. You could say the 5D II did the same to the 1Ds, but for people needing speedier and more precise AF the 5D II was newer a choice. The 1D was left alone, never touched by any other Canon, and probably the best seller of the 1D products anyway.


So essentially they are forcing people towards the D4 if they want speed, fullframe and lower res. Pretty good choice, I guess. 

As for the 5D III having lower resolution than the D800, well, only time can tell, but I'm fairly certain that It'll be closer to the resolution of the D800 than the current 5D, I'd find it extremely odd if the performance of the 5D III comes close to the 1D X. As for people jumping ship, well, I'm also fairly certain that the ones who'll do that are the unfaithful customers anyways, that aren't locked into a large collection of lenses. The camera has to be a massive disappointment if people switch in large numbers (like the 1D III that had people, hell, whole agencies and newspapers, switching to Nikon). 

As I said, pulled out of my ass.


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## K-amps (Feb 8, 2012)

stilscream said:


> When I was shopping for my first dslr, MP count was important. Now I have been trolling on here for a few weeks, I believe I am not as convinced MP count is as important as things like DR. I also was very interested in a higher fps, something you can't find on P&S easily. I definately did my homework on reviews also. I am stoked about the 5d mk III, when it does come out, I will probably be ordering one if the specs are close to true. I am anxious to go to FF from my 7d. I do a lot of wildlife, and while I will miss the crop factor, better pictures will be ultimately be more important to me. I am strictly ameature and learning.
> 
> On another note, Canon may not have a choice in the matter of letting Nikon get a jump on the market with their D800. Canon may be more crippled from the tsunami than we realise. With tragedies like this there are more things effected than porduction plant machines, but people, too.
> 
> This site has been giving me many hours of reading during down time at my job. Anxious, anxious, anxious for mk iii.



+1 Welcome to the CR Forum


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## BDD (Feb 8, 2012)

Faithful? I've been a loyal Nikon user for over 30 years. But since Nikon chose to take a different route with the D800 I will now need to look at the 5D3 (assuming they do give us 1-2 more stops of high native ISO). Plus I prefer a camera body w/o a battery grip. Though, if Canon ends up playing the MP game and puts out a 40MP 5D3 (as rumoured recently). Then I guess I'll "stay" loyal and buy either a 3Ds or D4. 

What will Canon do with the 5D3? Hopefully we'll find out at the end of the month. Place your bets!! Place your bets!!!


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 8, 2012)

AdamJ said:


> For me, the D800 announcement makes the wait for the 5D3 all the more fascinating. It seems to me that the two areas in which the 5D3 could better the D800 are high-ISO performance and processing speed (for higher FPS and cleaner image processing). If this proves to be the case, it would look very much like a reversal in Nikon's and Canon's relative marketing positions.
> 
> One thing I do feel sure about is that the D800 seems on paper to be so extremely competitive that Canon won't even have thought about crippling the 5D3 for marketing reasons.



Hopefully, we will see soon enough. I'd even be very optimistic but one guy who has seen the 5D3 seems to keep wanting to put some dampers on people's enthusiasm a bit, so that does make me wonder a little bit.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 8, 2012)

BDD said:


> Faithful? I've been a loyal Nikon user for over 30 years. But since Nikon chose to take a different route with the D800 I will now need to look at the 5D3 (assuming they do give us 1-2 more stops of high native ISO). Plus I prefer a camera body w/o a battery grip. Though, if Canon ends up playing the MP game and puts out a 40MP 5D3 (as rumoured recently). Then I guess I'll "stay" loyal and buy either a 3Ds or D4.



Using a standard Bayer sensor of the same size, I believe it's already been shown that it is impossible to even get just 2 stops better high iso than the best current Nikon unless you alter physics. I'm not sure if more than 1 stop if possible with re-writing the laws. ;D (and there has been no mention of using radically different sensor technology yet by any of these companies)

And some studies, granted based on slightly different tech at the subtle level, imply that 18MP vs 40MP wouldn't really help high ISO much, the difference might only just be 1/3 stop at most. And currently SONY has a more advanced ADC column architecture and have much better low ISO DR because of it.

So I'm just saying I don't think it is realistic to think the 5D3 would have a few stops better high ISO just because it has a lot less MP unless Nikon/SONY really messed up with the new 36MP sensor (granted that is always possible ;D). Perhaps it might have a little bit better high ISO, but it's relatively unlikely that it would be by any significant margin. And I say that not because I think it will be bad, but just because all the top cams are so close to reasonable theoretical limits for the types of designs they use already and because MP count only has relatively modest impacts on high iso SNR with the tech they are currently using.

But we will see, maybe Canon gets right to the very limits with this one and SONY didn't quite do so well this time and they drop back just a little and then the D800 does end up a full stop worse at high ISO.


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## BDD (Feb 8, 2012)

Well, I'm hoping Canon will borrow the tech required from the 1D-X (which already offers a native ISO range of 100-51,200). This was what I was implying. Since (according to recent CR rumours) Canon is planning to include a 61-point AF system (which I'm guessing is from the 1D-X). What Canon ends up doing...hopefully we'll all find out at the end of this month in their official announcement. 

Do I end up jumping ship and buying a 5D3? Or do I remain "faithful" and buy a D3s or D4? Hmmm... Canon does have a better selection of glass...partly why I'm willing to consider the 5D3. 

Come on CANON!! Give us a taste of what's to come already!!  Leak some specs!!


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## K-amps (Feb 8, 2012)

There is sensor DR/ISO, i.e. RAW; then there is jpeg rendition +NR + Expeed/Digic magic.

With the latter, it is possible to skirt the laws of Physics and get those extra stops, however proof comes in the RAW renditions... and we have not seen RAW footage either from the 1Dx or the D800 yet.


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## vuilang (Feb 8, 2012)

5D3 will be a game changer for many... Canon better do it right.


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## BDD (Feb 8, 2012)

vuilang said:


> 5D3 will be a game changer for many... Canon better do it right.



Agreed. Just as Nikon's D800 was a "game changer". It's turning out to be a very interesting year for Canon & Nikon fans. All Canon needs to do (in my mind) with the 5D3 is to include the recently mentioned spec list here at CR + 100-12,800 native ISO (or 100-51,200 as in the 1D-X). 

For those Canonites hoping for a 40MP EOS camera...wait for the "3D" or one of the "Cinema EOS DSLR" cameras.


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