# Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 20, 2012)

```
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<strong>The 7D Mark II a go?


</strong>Below is a purported spec list for an upcoming EOS 7D Mark II.</p>
<p><strong>Specifications

</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>24MP – an all new sensor with phase AF on chip and noticeably lower noise than the current 18MP.</li>
<li>1Dx/5D3 based AF system.</li>
<li>10 FPS.</li>
<li>ISO 100-25600.</li>
<li>High speed video, with still capture.</li>
<li>Improved durability and sealing.</li>
<li>Available this year.</li>
</ul>
<p>I tend to agree with the source, I am not convinced such a camera is on the horizon. We’ve heard for a while that the 70D would move up a level and the 7D would be left alone. With the recent major firmware update for the 7D, replacing the camera directly this soon seems like a stretch.</p>
<p><strong>Source: [<a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_7dmk2.html" target="_blank">NL</a>]</strong></p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 20, 2012)

Sounds good to me... I'll believe the "noticeably lower noise than the current 18MP," when I see the RAW files, and not a moment sooner. :


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## bvukich (Aug 20, 2012)

The specs sound fairly plausible, but if there was a MKII in the pipe I don't think we would have gotten that firmware update that added features. I'd put my money on Sept 2013, if ever.


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## bonedaddy.p7 (Aug 20, 2012)

I love those specs; I'd jump to buy one immediately if it's under 2100 for the body. Sadly I have to agree that 1: we may not see a 7DII this year (though I am still holding out) and 2: those specs seem a little wish-list like for under $2k


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## AprilForever (Aug 20, 2012)

The fabled 7D mk II!!!!

It will come soon, to be sure! Likely, we will see it spring 2013, I feel...

But not actually get our paws on it until winter 2013 or spring 2014...


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## gmrza (Aug 20, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> I tend to agree with the source, I am not convinced such a camera is on the horizon. We’ve heard for a while that the 70D would move up a level and the 7D would be left alone. With the recent major firmware update for the 7D, replacing the camera directly this soon seems like a stretch.



If the specs are correct, maybe it is the 70D not a "7DII".


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## unfocused (Aug 20, 2012)

24 mp seems a bit high, given that the 5DIII and 1DX both have fewer. But, that may be wishful thinking on my part. I'd be excited with 18 mp and clean ISO up to 1600-3200.

I suppose since Nikon is now marketing an entry-level camera with 24 mp, Canon may need to respond, but given the test results of the Nikon, it doesn't appear that the extra megapixels are worth the higher noise. 

I never bought the idea that the 70D would replace the 7D, although I agree it seems unlikely we'll see a 7DII before the end of the year (Unless, of course, Nikon releases its D300 replacement soon.)

Anyway, other than the mp count, I'd could get excited about this.


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## kaihp (Aug 20, 2012)

I think it makes very good sense for Canon to differentiate between the x0D and the 7D lines by using the AF system and fps points.
The x0D series could be limited to 9-ish AF points and around 6 fps, and the 7D line would get an 1DX/5D3-like AF system (minus what cannot be inside the APS-C mirrorbox), so these spect sound very plausible to me.

More Mega pickles is ho-hum for me, but improved IQ/DR/ISO is certainly welcome.

My only trouble is that I've kinda fallen in love with the idea of purchasing a 5D3, so dangling a 7D2 in front of my nose is just unfair   

Edit: I'm not surprised about the timing of the rumour - we're entering the final month before PhotoKina.

Decisions, decisions, decisions, what shall I buy?


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 20, 2012)

If they do have a 7D Mark II or a 70D, neither are going to be better than a 5D Mark III. They need a camera that will fit between the 1D X and the 5D Mark III, like where the 1D Mark IV is right now, for that to happen. But keeping on topic, suppose it were a 24mp sensor (which it won't be) but suppose it is a 24mp APS-C, it'll still be noiser than hell above ISO 3200, where it won't compete with a 5D3, rendering the extra resolution at high ISO's useless. Will it be a good camera? Sure! But I'm thinking it'll just fit between the current 7D and the 5D Mark III. I'd rather speculate on a camera that fits between the 5D3 and 1DX


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## Portrait_Moments_Photogra (Aug 20, 2012)

7D which is cheaper than the 5D series .... and with BETTER FEATURES???? NO WAY!


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## Lee Jay (Aug 20, 2012)

If Canon could actually pull this off, I might crack open my wallet for this and a 5DIII _if they both include flexible video crop modes_! I can't even believe they've removed that feature from the T4i. It should have been gradually improved and included on all Canon cameras.

If they can't do that, I'll probably just keep my current cameras. I've skipped 5 generations on one of them and 2 on the other so I don't mind. They're going to have to cough up the goods if they want my money.


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## preppyak (Aug 20, 2012)

Well, the one thing that is consistent between all these different spec lists is that it will be 10fps and a focus system that is a variation of the 61pt system from the 5dIII/1DX. Nothing else has been consistent. The sensor is either gonna be full frame, APS-H, 18mp APS-C, or 24MP APS-C w/ phase AF. Or it might not exist at all and the 70D will take its place. 

When I see a CR2, or several posts in a row with matching specs (the last 4-5 have had nothing in common) then I'll believe a 7DII might get put in the "announce and don't deliver for a year queue" that Canon has set up


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## Marine03 (Aug 20, 2012)

I've been waiting to hear 6D specs, thinking that I need full frame when upgrading from my 450D, however if there is such thing as a GOOD apc-s sensor, with 10FPS even though I rarely shoot that fast I would be super excited and torn for which product to buy if both were priced around 2K. I mean 4FPS full frame or 10 FPS APC-S with a good build quality I dunno.


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## expatinasia (Aug 20, 2012)

•24MP – an all new sensor with phase AF on chip and noticeably lower noise than the current 18MP.
•1Dx/5D3 based AF system.
•10 FPS

It would be hilarious if it were true and the camera came out in the next six months.

Make it APS-C and wow......

If only.......


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## EvillEmperor (Aug 20, 2012)

I wouldn't mind if it was 18 as long as it isn't the same one. I'm saving up for a 5d MK III, so I may drop for this instead. Would love an articulating screen and if it had STM compatibility.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 20, 2012)

Lee Jay said:


> If Canon could actually pull this off, I might crack open my wallet for this and a 5DIII _if they both include flexible video crop modes_! I can't even believe they've removed that feature from the T4i. It should have been gradually improved and included on all Canon cameras.
> 
> If they can't do that, I'll probably just keep my current cameras. I've skipped 5 generations on one of them and 2 on the other so I don't mind. They're going to have to cough up the goods if they want my money.



How true this is. I'll tell ya what, had I bought a 1Ds Mark II back in 2005 brand new for $8k, I might very well still be shooting with that as my primary camera


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## distant.star (Aug 20, 2012)

.
Nice fantasy.

It isn't the centerfold picture, but it's good enough to get the job done on a lonely night.


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## anselwannab (Aug 20, 2012)

So it would have a higher res than the 1Dx and just 2fps less? That is the part I don't get. I think the 7D is due for replacement, and these maybe the specs, but if they are, I don't see it getting here till mid next year. 1DX supply is tight still, eh?

With sensors getting cleaner and cleaner and video becoming more important as a feature, I don't know why Canon hasn't brought back the pellicle mirrors- they even had one in EOS cameras before. Run a modern H sensor with a pellicle. Get your 10FPs easy, video thru the viewfinder. If I were Canon the 1DX would have had a pellicle mirror and 15 fps to augement a 30+MP camera.

But on this topic, if a 7D is about like a 1D mkIII I don't think it is much of a stretch that the 7Dmk II would be like a 1D MKIV. Considering that used MKIIIs are about the price of a new 7D and MkIVs are about $3000-$3500k, that would indicate to me that the 7DMkII ( which would be about $2500?) is a bit off in the future. Not that Canon uses that as a measure or metric, just that it seems like these things equilibrate in the market. As more people dump MKIVs for 1DXs and the price drops a bit, the 7DMKII will appear. Call is 'Spooky action at a distance".

I would expect that we get some kind of signalling at photokina.


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## hmmm (Aug 20, 2012)

*Maybe the new sensor will be on the 70D also...*



Marine03 said:


> I've been waiting to hear 6D specs, thinking that I need full frame when upgrading from my 450D, however if there is such thing as a GOOD apc-s sensor, with 10FPS even though I rarely shoot that fast I would be super excited and torn for which product to buy if both were priced around 2K. I mean 4FPS full frame or 10 FPS APC-S with a good build quality I dunno.


My thoughts exactly... I had thought to move up to FF, am even keeping an eye on the D600... but if the 7DmkII sensor is actually improved (this time) I will seriously consider staying with aps-c. The 10-22 is still a sweet lens, and the extra reach of 1.6x is handy.

What of the 70D? The rumor mill has been silent on the 70D lately. Perhaps the new 70D will feature this new sensor as well, but not, of course, the top of the line af.

How could the new sensor be improved? backlit? Something foveon-like? As I recall we've seen Canon patents along those lines. Intriguing. 

If Photokina will see a 70D _and_ a 7D mkII announcement _with_ a new sensor that would pretty much explain why the 6D and high-MP announcement would be held off for a separate event in October. If, as rumored, the "6D" uses the old-technology sensor from the 5DmkIII announcing it separately would defuse some of the hand-wringing angst concentrated on the question 'How come the new budget ff does not get the new sensor technology???' Deferring the announcement would take some of the heat off the issue.

Judging by history (using the handy chart at NL), the 18mp debuted with the 7D in mid 2009, and it appeared on the rebel t2i before it showed up on the 60D several months later, in mid-2010. Personally, I think it makes more sense to release it on a 7D mkII first, then a 70D, then a digital rebel. Announcing both the 70D and 7DmkII at the same time with a new sensor doesn't seem out of the question to me, but it would be a break from precedent. Maybe we'll see the 70D in the spring, and the t5i at the end of the next summer to roll out the new sensor. But I'm hoping for a twin 7D - 70D rollout.

If this is the way it plays out, the choice will indeed be interesting: 7D mkII with new sensor tech -- maybe a new 70D with same sensor as well -- or FF at a breakthrough price...? Decisions, decisions... 8)


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## EOBeav (Aug 20, 2012)

Portrait_Moments_Photogra said:


> 7D which is cheaper than the 5D series .... and with BETTER FEATURES???? NO WAY!



1.6 crop vs. full frame sensor
apples vs. oranges


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## nicku (Aug 20, 2012)

24MP on a 1.6 crop sensor.... little too much. maybe will be APS-H ;D ;D ;D

i wonder how the DOF will be on a such high resolution APS-C sensor.


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## stilscream (Aug 20, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> <div name=\"googleone_share_1\" style=\"position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;\"><glusone size=\"tall\" count=\"1\" href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/08/canon-eos-7d-mark-ii-specs-cr1/\"></glusone></div><div class=\"tweetmeme_button\" style=\"float: right; margin:0 0 70px 70px;\"><a class=\"tm_button\" rel=\"&style=normal&b=2\" href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/08/canon-eos-7d-mark-ii-specs-cr1/\"></a></div>
> <strong>The 7D Mark II a go?
> 
> 
> ...


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## nicku (Aug 20, 2012)

stilscream said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > <div name=\"googleone_share_1\" style=\"position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;\"><glusone size=\"tall\" count=\"1\" href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/08/canon-eos-7d-mark-ii-specs-cr1/\"></glusone></div><div class=\"tweetmeme_button\" style=\"float: right; margin:0 0 70px 70px;\"><a class=\"tm_button\" rel=\"&style=normal&b=2\" href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/08/canon-eos-7d-mark-ii-specs-cr1/\"></a></div>
> ...


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## AprilForever (Aug 20, 2012)

I can see this being about 2500... but 2500 I will be happy to shell out!!!


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## c.d.embrey (Aug 20, 2012)

Seems like, from what I've seen, that both Canon and Nikon are abandoning High-End APS-C. No-one thinks that a 7D2 or a D400 will be here anytime soon. Also there is about as much talk about a future Nikon D7100 as there is about the future Canon 70D.

Photokina will be interesting. Can't wait to see *what is* AND *what isn't* announced.


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## anthony11 (Aug 20, 2012)

expatinasia said:


> •24MP – an all new sensor with phase AF on chip and noticeably lower noise than the current 18MP.
> •1Dx/5D3 based AF system.
> •10 FPS
> It would be hilarious if it were true and the camera came out in the next six months.
> ...


If only they'd leave it at no more than 18MP and give us usable ISO6400 and an AF system that works worth a damn, then I'd sell my 5D2 in a heartbeat. Friggin pixels. I don't need more, I need to shoot my kid indoors, where flash is rarely practical, and fast primes are a joke given that one has to stop down to at least f/5.6.


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## dr croubie (Aug 20, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Sounds good to me... I'll believe the "noticeably lower noise than the current 18MP," when I see the RAW files, and not a moment sooner. :



I'll believe the "noticeably lower noise than the current 18MP" waay waay more than I'd believe the "Available this year".

(or at least, i'll believe that the "noticeably lower noise than the current 18MP" will appear on marketing brochures)


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## stefsan (Aug 20, 2012)

dr croubie said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds good to me... I'll believe the "noticeably lower noise than the current 18MP," when I see the RAW files, and not a moment sooner. :
> ...



I tend to agree that the marketing brouchers will be the place where "noticably lower noise" will be the most noticable. But if Canon manages to deliver such a camera, it will sell like hot cakes. Together with the 5DIII it would make a perfect pair…


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## anthony11 (Aug 20, 2012)

Well, you have to admit that the bar isn't very high to offer lower noise than the 7D.


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## nicku (Aug 20, 2012)

stefsan said:


> dr croubie said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



I believe this is the intention.... but ''noticable lower noise'' will come with a price ( in terms of image sharpness and overall camera price; my guess $2499).


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## bear (Aug 20, 2012)

nicku said:


> 24MP on a 1.6 crop sensor.... little too much. maybe will be APS-H ;D ;D ;D
> 
> i wonder how the DOF will be on a such high resolution APS-C sensor.


APS-H + silent serial shooting like 5D3 (maybe 5fps will be possible with APS-H sized mirror and I will buy one even for the price of 5D3


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## nicku (Aug 20, 2012)

bear said:


> nicku said:
> 
> 
> > 24MP on a 1.6 crop sensor.... little too much. maybe will be APS-H ;D ;D ;D
> ...




The 7D2 WAS/WILL NOT be designed to fit between 5D3 and 60D - 70D. I believe that the next generation of 7D is intended as a direct 1DX sports/action camera backup or baby DSLR. 70D will be upgraded to semipro APS-C. and 7D2 ( whatever the sensor format will be) will be a dedicated sports/action camera cheaper than the flagship 1Dx.


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## FarQinell (Aug 20, 2012)

7D or 70D with 24Mp sensor.

That's fine by me. 

Bring it on Canon - asap.

Fannying around with sub 20Mp sensors to suit the zealots here is bad for business!


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## funkboy (Aug 20, 2012)

Weeelll...

Canon released the 5DII September 2008 (Photokina)
Significant firmware upgrade was released in March 2011
Replaced with 5DIII March 2012

7D was released September 2009
Significant firmware upgrade announced in June 2012 & released in August
So I would expect them to give the new firmware until at least March to run its course before replacing the camera, possibly as late as next fall if they really milk it the way they did with the 5DII.

60D was released August 2010
60Da released April 2012
XXd cameras usually have an 18 month refresh cycle with 2 years being the longest so far
Delay between 20Da & 30D was June to February.

My question is "what's coming for Photokina?"
If one were to go strictly on pattern analysis, we'd get a 70D for Photokina & a 7D replacement in the spring (but marketing doesn't have a lot to do with pattern analysis).

Canon & Nikon may be playing a cat & mouse game with the D400 and 7D replacement, each waiting to see who'll tip his hand first so that the other can react to it 6 months later. It may well be that Canon feels it's pretty clear that Nikon will be playing the big MP card again with the 24mp Sony sensor rumored to be in the D400 (I believe that's a good assumption), and different factions in engineering & marketing are undecided as to whether to continue to tout the "fewer better MP" line used since the 1DX launch or launch a higher MP direct competitor for it. Potatokina is looking ripe for a D400 announcement, & C & N usually try to avoid releasing directly competing cameras at the same event.

Personally I think that they'll stick with the 18 megapickle formula that has worked well for them so far, because:


it will enforce the mantra started with the 1DX
they want their camera to be as different from the D400 as possible (while still competing for the same market segment) so that they don't have to compete on price alone
24mp APS-C would punish most of their current lenses. Any of the cheaper zooms or wide primes on such a sensor would just be stupid.

I hope I'm right...


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## marekjoz (Aug 20, 2012)

"24MP – an all new sensor with phase AF on chip and noticeably lower noise than the current 18MP.
High speed video, with still capture.
Improved durability and sealing."

If there is a hybrid AF as well, then it's a great base for next higher class mirrorless. I think most of next DSLRs will be designed with mirrorless brother in mind. Let them give a new AF modes: birds, sports, kids and family, pets, etc., a viewfinder and with this pixel count, cropping will help a lot.
Such a 7D successor with specs given would be great. So 7d firmware v2 would be market research and stock cleaning?
I'm just afraid that it will have 2 digics as well so no ML on it.


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## nicku (Aug 20, 2012)

hjulenissen said:


> The formula for 7D-cathegory seems to be:
> -Good AF system
> -High framerates
> -Good ergonomy
> ...



Considering the last moves and very credible rumors I believe competition ( Nikon) are starting to give them no choice...


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## Rodknee (Aug 20, 2012)

If Canon were listening to what photographers want, how near is this specification to what 7D users have been asking for in a MkII ?


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## marekjoz (Aug 20, 2012)

Rodknee said:


> If Canon were listening to what photographers want, how near is this specification to what 7D users have been asking for in a MkII ?



Regarding speed, video and MP it's above the desired specification


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## liquidcool (Aug 20, 2012)

While I agree with previous posters who say it's about time for the 70D, it appears Canon has the most room price-wise between the 5D II and the 5D III. In addition, the most reliable Nikon rumor is the low cost FF D600 expected at Photokina. So my bet is still on a 6D to compete with the D600, but priced about $2500 instead of the rumored $2000 for the D600. The 6D was rumored at $2K for a long time, but they'd have to discontinue or slash the price of the 5D II and/or 7D to fit that in. But maybe they'd do that.


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## Bob Howland (Aug 20, 2012)

The specs don't make much sense given (1) the recent 7D firmware upgrade and (2) Canon's recent trend, as seen in the 1Dx and 5D3, to not increase sensor resolution in pro cameras but, rather, improve image quality at higher ISOs. A 24MP Canon APS-C sensor is equivalent to 61MP full frame. That's a lot of pixels. I think 24MP in a 70D is much more likely.


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## DzPhotography (Aug 20, 2012)

Maybe it's the Sony 24MP APS-C sensor ;D


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## marekjoz (Aug 20, 2012)

DzPhotography said:


> Maybe it's the Sony 24MP APS-C sensor ;D



Or it's rumored by Sony:
1. Start making people dream about 24MP APS-C from Canon
2. Wait for Canon making people dissapointed
3. Advertising: "Come to daddy..."

;D


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## preppyak (Aug 20, 2012)

anselwannab said:


> *So it would have a higher res than the 1Dx and just 2fps less?* That is the part I don't get. I think the 7D is due for replacement, and these maybe the specs, but if they are, I don't see it getting here till mid next year. 1DX supply is tight still, eh?


We're talking entirely different sensors though. For outdoor sports shooters who get bright sunlight, sure, there might not be a big difference. But then again, the current 7D would probably be fine for them (though the AF upgrade would be nice)

But for anyone working inside or in lower light, the 1DX sensor can shoot comfortably at ISO 12,800 and even 25,600, and the current 7D struggles at ISO 1600. Even assuming they get an extra stop out of the 7D sensor, its still well behind.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 20, 2012)

If the camera fits between the 5D Mark III and the 1DX, it isn't going to be called a 7D Mark II or a 70D!!!


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## DzPhotography (Aug 20, 2012)

preppyak said:


> anselwannab said:
> 
> 
> > *So it would have a higher res than the 1Dx and just 2fps less?* That is the part I don't get. I think the 7D is due for replacement, and these maybe the specs, but if they are, I don't see it getting here till mid next year. 1DX supply is tight still, eh?
> ...


The current 7D is still usable at 3200 ISO, if you use raw and some NR in f.i. LR afterwards imho...


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## crasher8 (Aug 20, 2012)

I have a 7D, for the moment(as I await the release of a new FF or a 5D2) I wouldn't really care if they did away with this lonesome model, it seems it's little brother the XXD line is creeping up and will swallow the 7D. Most likely with T4i features and better ISO performance. The notion that the next aps-c body should have 1DX and 5D3 features is ridiculous. 
To remain in a certain price point, <$2k, there will have to be compromises. Since the current 7D already has some pro level features tells me to design and tool a new body with at least those said features and a sensor with better low light IQ it would be creeping into 5D3 pricing so a 70D without the weather sealing and magnesium body would make much more sense for a flagship prosumer APS-C body with better ISO and IQ than the 7D. I think the firmware update was a 'gift' to 7D users and we may not see the line continue. Too many crops in Canon's line anyway iyam.


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## DB (Aug 20, 2012)

If I were Mr. Canon Inc. and I wanted to bring out a new model crop sensor body with improved AF, faster fps, better DR and lower noise, plus retain existing products within the product line whilst selling the Mark 2 for $1,000 more....

........ then I'd introduce a 7D2 with 24MP APS-H sensor (thus larger pixel size, so better DR) using dual-DIGIC5+ processors, thus improving both noise & ISO performance and bumping the fps up from 8 to 10....... 

.... but then again, I'm not in charge of Canon Inc., so this is pure speculation.... but it would allow them them to introduce a new APS-C Flagship (the 70D), at the same time it would keep the 5D3 as a FF upgrade from the 7D2 at a cost of $750-$1,000 more. 

Think about it, most serious photographers have 2 or more bodies, with many opting for the 7D for additional reach. The IDIV is no longer in production, so for many pro's and enthusiasts, the 7D is a logical choice, but a 7D2 would entice many 1DX and 5D3 owners to purchase a 7D2 as a 2nd body.

It would also allow Canon to keep the xD series as the Professional line, then the xxD would be for the serious enthusiast/Semi-Pro, the xxxD bodies for the hobbyist and the xxxxD for the Noobs.


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## crasher8 (Aug 20, 2012)

Anyone else see the rumor floating around about an August 27/28th announcement from Canon on the 7D2/70D? Folks at dpreview forum have been tossing it around. No substantial info so far but was wondering if anyone here has heard a thing. Hell that's next week!


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## dlleno (Aug 20, 2012)

marekjoz said:


> DzPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe it's the Sony 24MP APS-C sensor ;D
> ...



thats hilarious, and maybe even true, lol! after all, this is a CR1 rumor and no more credible than those before it. I suspect the purpose is to keep the flame alive. 

That said, the content in this one for the first time mentions noise with an oblique reference to the shortcomings of the 7D in that regard. Its as if someone is reading the forums and putting stuff out there known to generate lots of activity 

Anyway unless Canon really strikes with a new and disruptive "C" sensor technology there's seriously no way these rumored specs will come to life without going to an H sensor, which of course re-hashes all the same chatter again on that topic, for example how horrible it would be to force 7D upgraders to sell their S lenses to 70D owners, how the integer "7" and the letter "C" can never be separated, etc.. Alternatively, if they do have such a disruptive crop sensor, capable of pushing the pixel density limit while at the same time reducing noise, then they already have, "in hand", successor technology to the 5D3 and 1DX, requiring only the migration to the FF production.


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## RLPhoto (Aug 20, 2012)

The 7D will be replaced eventually, but until then I still love mine. 8)


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## zrz2005101 (Aug 20, 2012)

If this spec list is true, I'm in, getting rid of the 1D4 and the 7D for this new one.
As long as it has what it promised on this spec list  and by noticeably lower noise, I hope, it will be on par with the current 1D4...
AF...well, if it's as good as the 1D4 or even 1D3, that's good
others I don't really care that much


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## ahsanford (Aug 20, 2012)

Late to the thread, but my two bits are below.

I agree on a few things:


Must have higher frame rate than 5D3 (which is 6 fps), given it's sports / length heritage. 10 fps is reasonable, but the current 8 fps is probably more than most need, right?
APS-C for certain. Other folks online are saying the new 7D will be their entry FF camera, and that's absurd, IMHO. The name 7D means 'top end APS-C', and any entry FF camera they offer will likely be stripped down for features. (I'm buying that the new entry level FF will be called the 6D. Just makes sense.)
Higher than 18 MP for certain, as the current 7D sensor is somewhat long in the tooth, and is in the current T3i and T4i cameras, right? 24MP seems a logical number, but perhaps there is a 5D3 video scalability that makes 22 the right number. (Whatever.)

Dubious on others:


_Highly _doubt it gets the 1DX/5D3 AF system. 1Ds III and 1D4 owners were furious when the 5D3 got the best-in-the-world AF system -- they prefer each and every aspect of their 1D cameras to be best in class _and not offered in other cameras_. That's how you consistently get $7k for a camera.

No fricken way:


This year. Not a chance. I read the recent firmware update (really, a big upgrade) as a stiff-arm for offering a new 7D for at least another year.

Interesting stuff. I'm curious to see (per my AF comments) just how best-in-class this camera will be. 

- A


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## willis (Aug 20, 2012)

No way that's going to happen, 7D would be better than 5D3 in specs but without FF sensor.
But if it so, definitely going to upgrade.


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## candyman (Aug 20, 2012)

A 7D successor is coming. I am convinced. Especially after seeing that Camerashops are offering the current 7D with a present (like a Wacom tablet) I do believe they do that to get rid of their stock samples.

I hope the 7D MKII will inherit the 61-AF 
- 61-point AF with up to 41 cross-type AF points
-  ISO up to 25600 and Less high ISO noise at 6400 (would be great if that would be even 12800)
- dual slots

I don't mind keeping 18 megapixels and same framerate as now. 

I think that at the end , the 7D MKII willl be positioned where the 1D MKIV is now and replace this camera. So no more x1.3 but only x1.0 and x1.6 (as where the 7D MKII is the top of the APS-C line)


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## preppyak (Aug 20, 2012)

The current 7D is still usable at 3200 ISO, if you use raw and some NR in f.i. LR afterwards imho...
[/quote]Oh, I agree, but, the 1DX gets about the same results at 25600; it basically is a full 4 stops better than the 7D sensor. Which is understandable when you consider one is a 3yr old APS-C sensor and the other is the top of the line full-frame sensor. 

My point was that I don't expect Canon to have any worries about whether a 7DII has 1DX features, because its low light ability will never be able to match it.


Rodknee said:


> If Canon were listening to what photographers want, how near is this specification to what 7D users have been asking for in a MkII ?


Well, if it does video at 1080/60fps, it'd be more than most users were expecting. The fps and AF are about what most expect, and the sensor sort of goes either way. I think most wanted an improved 18mp, while others wanted more or APS-H.

If that spec list is true, it'd be a well embraced camera.



candyman said:


> I hope the 7D MKII will inherit the 61-AF
> - 61-point AF with up to 41 cross-type AF points
> -  ISO up to 25600 and Less high ISO noise at 6400 (would be great if that would be even 12800)
> - dual slots


I do think they will have to reconfigure the whole 61pt AF system, since its a smaller image circle they are dealing with. It may well end up as a 41pt AF system (removing all the outside points), but with all cross-point or mainly cross-point. A stop improvement on the sensor would be nice as well. 

Give it the same build quality, a better sensor, faster, better AF, and it sounds like a win. And maybe a nice option when fall 2013 comes around


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## DMITPHOTO (Aug 20, 2012)

With Canon I guess you should always wait for a camera! I bought the 5d3 when it first came out but come on canon, this is pretty much the 5d3 with 10fps and 2 more mp.... And I'm guessing this camera will be in the 2,000-2,500$ range ! If the 7d and below are supposed to be more entry/mid level pro dslr's why are they making them just like the 1dx etc??? And their usually way cheaper in price (


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## jrista (Aug 20, 2012)

preppyak said:


> DzPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > The current 7D is still usable at 3200 ISO, if you use raw and some NR in f.i. LR afterwards imho...
> ...



The 7D is only usable at ISO 3200 if you have enough light...in the kind of light you would normally use it under, ISO 3200 is where the 7D falls off the cliff (or, perhaps better put...climbs the "Cliffs of Noise" with gusto). Its barely usable under good circumstances, but generally speaking if you have to take a shot at ISO 3200, it requires more than just a bit of NR in LR to really clean up properly...and it has the tendency to eat useful detail for breakfast. I've resorted to using a negative sharpness and positive NR brush in LR to paint away background noise in my photographs when I have to use ISO 3200 (and ISO 2000, which is also pretty bad due to the insane way Canon handles ISO settings.) 

There isn't much Canon can really do about this in the grand scheme of things. I think the 7D has a Q.E. of 41%. Canon would need to do something to bring that number above 50% to get competitive and start to reduce noise problems at high ISO. The 5D III reached 49% Q.E., but it has a larger pixel, and on top of that Canon had to cheat to achieve that (with weaker blue and red filters in the sensor CFA ). A backilluminated sensor design might be able to bring Q.E. up to 55% or more, in which case Canon might actually be able to make ISO 3200 and possibly even 6400 usable on a 7D II, with 12800 and 25600 behaving much like 3200 and 6400 to on the 7D I today. Assuming they can actually improve Q.E. enough to realize some worthwhile gains.



Regardless, a 7D II with the listed specs will never compete with the 1D X. There are many significant differences, not the least of which is frame rate (the big selling point of Canon's high-end line). On that front, the 7D was released against the 1D III and 1D IV models, which had 10fps where as the 7D had 8fps. Thats a difference of two FPS, which is the same difference between a 10fps 7D and the 12fps 1D X (or, for those who are able to use mirror lockup, 14fps). The 1D X has a far superior metering system that is tied in with the AF system. It has superior weathersealing. The list goes on. Megapixels is only one of many factors, and the 1D X sensor will have FAR larger pixels than a 24mp APS-C, giving it a significant Q.E. edge...which is why it performs so well up to ISO 51200.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 20, 2012)

I agree with everything you said. In real life, though, is ISO 25600 REALLY useable on the 1DX? I was shooting soccer Saturday night and images where I used that setting are not useable at all. In fact, I noticed on the 1DX the higher the ISO from 10,000 and above, the worse the highlights got blown out. However, I agree with your assessment regarding the 7D. THAT for sure needs improvement.


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## jrista (Aug 20, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> I agree with everything you said. In real life, though, is ISO 25600 REALLY useable on the 1DX? I was shooting soccer Saturday night and images where I used that setting are not useable at all. In fact, I noticed on the 1DX the higher the ISO from 10,000 and above, the worse the highlights got blown out. However, I agree with your assessment regarding the 7D. THAT for sure needs improvement.



Well, I am not sure how one might define "usable". ;P You lose about 1 stop of dynamic range for every stop of higher ISO. If at ISO 100 the 1D X gets the same 11.7 stops as the 5D III...then you lose as much as 8 stops of DR by the time you ready ISO 25600 (lets say 7.5 stops, as its not always a full stop depending on exactly where the "real" ISO level falls.) If you start with 11.7 at ISO 100, then you have a mere 4.2 stops on average (and 3.7 at worst) by the time you hit ISO 25600. As far as I know, thats simply a matter of physics, and not much you can really do about it.

However, read noise at that high of an ISO setting is going to be pretty much nil (its around 2.5-3 electrons worth in most Canon cameras at ISO settings above ISO 400). At that level, its the same as Sony Exmor sensors at ISO 100 (which fall around 3e- read noise). As such, you should be able to underexpose slightly to preserve the highlights, and have the ability to recover whatever shadow detail there is without experiencing pattern noise introduced by the electronics...unless your lifting by several stops. Again, as a matter of physics, the shadows at such a high ISO setting will contain low, "shotty" detail...in that the physical nature of light will dominate, and its pretty much random hit or miss whether a pixel actually receives enough photons to even register a minimal signal or not. 

It wouldn't matter if it was a Sony Exmor sensor either...at this level, your battling physics. The results will be roughly the same. The only way to really improve the performance of such high ISO settings is to radically improve quantum efficiency (Q.E.). An increase of 10% is barely going to do much, so were talking some radical improvements....backillumnated full-frame sensors, thermal cooling to -80C, and more precise manufacturing with higher-grade materials (copper wiring, silver interconnects, etc.) At 80%+ Q.E., ISO 25600 might actually become "really usable" as you put it...but you would be paying in first born children (AND the gold spun from straw that you got in return for the child), a few arms & legs, and perhaps an organ or two to own such a gem in the first place (at least, until full-frame backilluminated sensor design and thermoelectric cooling efficient enough to achieve -80C in a consumer device became "cost effective"...) 

All things being equal, 4+ stops of DR at ISO 25600 seems fairly usable to me, considering that you have the option in the first place to cover your ass in the event that you actually need it. In the sample photos I've seen of ISO 3200, 6400, and even 12800 from the 1D X, the results are phenomenal, and contain far less noise than my 7D does at 1600!!


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 20, 2012)

Okay, that makes sense. However, these were field shots at a soccer game under lights and ISO 25,600 is so grainy and noisy that when you apply sufficient NR, the faces and soccer ball are blurry, which I cannot have. That's why I was saying in this case that the photos were unusable. I suppose when you have more, even lighting it is different. The shadows are actually really, really bad. I think the problem is that this "ISO advantage" is based more upon specs and even lit situations, vs. real-life harsh situations.


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## jrista (Aug 20, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> Okay, that makes sense. However, these were field shots at a soccer game under lights and ISO 25,600 is so grainy and noisy that when you apply sufficient NR, the faces and soccer ball are blurry, which I cannot have. That's why I was saying in this case that the photos were unusable. I suppose when you have more, even lighting it is different. The shadows are actually really, really bad. I think the problem is that this "ISO advantage" is based more upon specs and even lit situations, vs. real-life harsh situations.



I'm curious what the full camera settings were. I've browsed through quite a few sample shots from the 1D X at high ISO, and what your describing is rather surprising. The only thing that I can think of is that you were shooting at REALLY high shutter speeds, and were simply not getting enough light down the lens. And, if that were the case, I would actually recommend using ISO 51200 for better results. If you can't get enough light down the lens, a higher ISO setting, even if its the maximum, will almost always be better than shooting with the wrong settings, as photon shot noise will completely dominate. Also, keep in mind, "noise" at ISO settings as high as this is all relative. The noise on the 1D X at ISO 25600 is only going to be "relatively less" than noise on an older Canon one to two stops lower. For example, the noise on the 1D X at 25600 is probably similar to noise on the 5D II or 1Ds III at ISO 6400...thats still a lot of noise, its just that relatively speaking, its lower than the noise would be if either of those two cameras were actually capable of ISO 25600.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm looking now, and my highest useable ISO was 16,000. Which I agree, is VERY good! I just want people to be careful because I see a lot of "it can go up to ISO.............etc." Just be careful and realize that the overall lighting matters too and 25,600 is really pushing the quality. I am however, very happy that it performs at as high of ISO's as it does. So no complaints on the camera at all. I'll use it again, so I'll have more shots to compare.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 20, 2012)

jrista said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, that makes sense. However, these were field shots at a soccer game under lights and ISO 25,600 is so grainy and noisy that when you apply sufficient NR, the faces and soccer ball are blurry, which I cannot have. That's why I was saying in this case that the photos were unusable. I suppose when you have more, even lighting it is different. The shadows are actually really, really bad. I think the problem is that this "ISO advantage" is based more upon specs and even lit situations, vs. real-life harsh situations.
> ...



That's exactly it. I was shooting at 1/640s and for soccer, that was still a bit slow. Next time I will accept the low light and open up the aperture, and just realize that I'll have to go for specific player shots, as DOF will be limited. I was 1/640s at f/6.3, ISO 25,600. In the future, when it gets that dark, I'll use wider aperture values, and I'm not afraid to go all the way to f/2.8. The point is, in my kitchen shooting at ISO 25,600 I could clean up, but out in real life on the field, it didn't work out so nicely.


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## Stone (Aug 20, 2012)

I don't see the specs as THAT far fetched, the 7D is supposed to be the king of crop bodies. It makes perfect sense to me that it have this kind of spec sheet. The 61pt AF is a no brainer since it works so well in the 1 & 5 series bodies and should be exclusive to the top of the line xD series bodies and 10fps is no longer the holy grail considering the blistering performance of the 1DX.

The only unknown is the sensor. Are we finally going to see some new tech from Canon? The 18MP sensor has been ubiquitous among Canon crop bodies for some time now. It makes sense to release a new higher resolution sensor on a flagship APS-C body. Having a slightly higher MP count isn't going to matter much to Enthusiast/Pro buyers who understand the performance characteristics of FF vs Crop, but birders and those limited by reach (like myself) would certainly appreciate the upgrade, it would also be nice marketing material for amateurs who just wanna spend a bundle since Megapixels still sell cameras.

I do expect the price for this kind of performance to increase by about $1K, this is Canon we're talking about here. Considering the recent firmware upgrades, I can't see the 7DII dropping this year. Canon HAS to release it's high MP monster and affordable FF bodies in the Fall/Spring just to remain competitive with the dark side, so I see a 7DII as a late summer 2013 camera which is fine by me if they spend some quality time on the sensor......


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## distant.star (Aug 20, 2012)

.
I think they must pay some retired PR/media guys to dream this stuff up and send it out through the rumor mill. Wonder how I can get in on this action! Pay must be good enough for a couple of nice dinners and drinks out each month.

Let's all raise a glass for good disinformation!!!


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## marekjoz (Aug 20, 2012)

Stone said:


> I don't see the specs as THAT far fetched, the 7D is supposed to be the king of crop bodies. (...)



I've read his sentence as "(...)the 7D is supposed to be the king of *crap* bodies." and I really don't know why, but I liked this opinion


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## hmmm (Aug 20, 2012)

marekjoz said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see the specs as THAT far fetched, the 7D is supposed to be the king of crop bodies. (...)
> ...



What juvenile humor. Oh well, got _me_ to laugh. ;D

I really like the idea that we'll know for sure by the end of next week. Come on... twin announcement for 70D and 7D mkII !!!


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## marekjoz (Aug 20, 2012)

hmmm said:


> marekjoz said:
> 
> 
> > Stone said:
> ...



What's wrong with sharing own experiences?  You brought my selfconfidence to the upper level with your proper sensation 
EDIT: I have my own 7D, so I personally wouldn't like it to be the king of crap. I love my 7D. I care about it a lot - I get it outside for a a fresh air but I let it stay in warm backpack for the most of the time. I love it so much, that I do my best not to make it overworked.


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## jrista (Aug 20, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



In your kitchen, your subjects are probably only a few feet away. Out on a soccer field, your subjects are probably ten times as far away. Remember, light has an inverse square falloff...even if its a bright light source, on the field that light has to travel from the bulb to the subject, then from the subject to the camera. Our eyes adjust automatically, however cameras are fixed devices. A soccer field is not a particularly bright place in the grand scheme of things. The difference between f/2.8 and f/6.3 is more than two stops, or more than a four-fold difference in light let down the lens. If you simply double your aperture to f/4.5, that alone would probably do wonders (either you could drop to ISO 12800 and get more DR, or keep using 25600 and get a more saturated shot.)


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## Bosman (Aug 20, 2012)

I got nothin to say till its at least CR2.


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## dlleno (Aug 20, 2012)

Bosman said:


> I got nothin to say till its at least CR2.



like


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## marekjoz (Aug 20, 2012)

jrista said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Yes. Here are some examples from the soccer field with the spec details: http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/uefa_euro_2012_blog_2.do Sometimes it's the quality "almost" achievable with 7D but in most cases with lenses rather out of the reach. Financial reach of course.


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## jouster (Aug 20, 2012)

willis said:


> No way that's going to happen, 7D would be better than 5D3 in specs but without FF sensor.
> But if it so, definitely going to upgrade.



Well, the 7D was better than the 5D2 except for its sensor. No reason the 7D2 couldn't be better than the 5D3 in the same way.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 20, 2012)

jrista said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



I agree that all of this is true. Which simply bolsters my point about shooting night soccer at ISO 25600 with a 1DX. It's beyond lab tests and spec sheets.


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## Bosman (Aug 20, 2012)

jouster said:


> willis said:
> 
> 
> > No way that's going to happen, 7D would be better than 5D3 in specs but without FF sensor.
> ...


I can only imagine the only thing it will be better at is FPS and possibly tracking...Maybe give it 1dx af system but with fewer points. Else, it won't touch a 5dm3 in my opinion but then we shall see.


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## funkboy (Aug 20, 2012)

jrista said:


> You lose about 1 stop of dynamic range for every stop of higher ISO.



DXOMark indicates that that's a bit of an oversimplification...  Taking the example of the humble G1X (the most recent non-FF Canon for which DXO has measurements), after ISO1600 it does indeed lose a little less than a stop of DR per stop of ISO, but below that the ratio is far from linear (the DR at ISO1600 is only a little over a stop less than the DR at ISO100).

If the 4/3ish G1X has almost 10 EV of DR at ISO1600 then an APS-C 7D replacement should fare far better...


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## jrista (Aug 20, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



You might actually *benefit* from ISO 51200 if your having so much trouble. I was wrong before about DR...I forgot that Canon sensors are actually chopping off about two stops on the low ISO end, so you would have around 6 stops at ISO 25600, and 5 stops at ISO 51200. When you can't get enough light down the lens, the best thing to do is increase ISO and maximize exposure (without blowing highlights...something the 1D X with its RGB metering sensor should be able to handle with ease, and possibly a -1/3rd stop EC when your photographing white jerseys and the like.)


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## jrista (Aug 20, 2012)

funkboy said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > You lose about 1 stop of dynamic range for every stop of higher ISO.
> ...



Actually, its a bit different with Canon's, and I forgot to take the issue into account. Canon sensors become read-noise bound by ISO 400, and at ISO 200 and 100 they don't really gain any additional DR. So you actually start losing about 1 stop from ISO 400, meaning 1 stop at ISO 800, 2 at 1600, 3/3200, 4/6400, 5/12800, 6/25600. That would leave you with about 6 stops of DR at ISO 25600, not 4.2 stops. Apologies for the confusion.


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## hmmm (Aug 21, 2012)

*7d mkII and the free firmware upgrade? Maybe...*

Got to thinking about this -- maybe the 70D will be an announcement for a product shipping the 4th quarter, and the 7D mkII will be announced at the same time but will ship in 1Q13. The 7D firmware upgrade would then serve as a bit of a bridge to help the 7D upgrader hold out for the more expensive 7D mkII. From that point of view the 7D firmware upgrade and the 7D mkII sooner rather than later make sense.

Here's to a dual announcement for the 70D and 7D mk II !


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 21, 2012)

jrista,

I got ya now. I'm willing to avoid that high of an ISO value, now that we know it's limitations in that particular setting. I'm totally comfortable shooting at f/4 down to f/3.2 if need be. I'd rather open up than raise the ISO for sure. Thanks for your explanations.

Sorry I seemed to have changed the thread


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## pj1974 (Aug 21, 2012)

Ok... quote from the original post:

_1) 24MP – an all new sensor with phase AF on chip and noticeably lower noise than the current 18MP.
2) 1Dx/5D3 based AF system.
3) 10 FPS.
4) ISO 100-25600.
5) High speed video, with still capture.
6) Improved durability and sealing.
7) Available this year. _ 

My reflection and take on the above, using the numbering I've given:
1) 18MP is great for me. I'd rather have lower noise than more MP. Phase AF on chip sounds good!
2) The current 19pt AF system works very well for me. Ok - extra AF points = handy (I like wide frame coverage)
3) 10FPS. Nice. As long as I can choose eg 3fps, 5fps, 8fps and 10fps. But 8fps is enough.
4) I rarely go above ISO3200 if I can help it, due to current noise levels @ high ISOs. 
5) Handy for some, but something I would only use it once in a blue moon.
6) I'm really happy with the current build quality. If shutter can be more durable, that's good!
7) Nice... so by the time I want to replace my current 7D, the price might be lower.

I think it's clear from the above that I think the current 7D is already an awesome camera. If they can improve on it in some of the ways (particularly IQ) - that would be a bonus. I bought the 7D soon after it was announced and available.

Over several years I have enjoyed taking lots of photos - mainly landscape, wildlife (including birds) and macro- while also doing ad-hoc event photography (eg camps, church events, family occasions, etc). I aim to keep doing so with whatever camera/s and lens/es I own and use! Roll on improvements - all the more benefit for us photographers!

Regards

Paul


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## jrista (Aug 21, 2012)

pj1974 said:


> 1) 18MP is great for me. I'd rather have lower noise than more MP. Phase AF on chip sounds good!



Just out of curiosity, how would you use FPPD (Focal Plane Phase Detection) AF with a 7D-type camera? The value of FPPD is in Live View and Video...however if your shooting things through the viewfinder, a dedicated AF sensor is not only essential, its also probably going to be more accurate as it can be fine tuned to various apertures (such as the center five double cross type points at f/2.8, and the cross type points nearer to the edge of the AF grid that are sensitive down to f/5.6, of Canon's new 61pt AF sensor.) If you shoot a lot of video with the 7D (which I find curious...I'd definitely prefer something in the 5D line myself for video) then I could understand the value of FPPD in a DSLR...but its rather immature technology and due for a lot of refinement and perfection before I would trust it for full blown low-light AF acquisition and tracking like a dedicated AF sensor is capable of.



pj1974 said:


> 2) The current 19pt AF system works very well for me. Ok - extra AF points = handy (I like wide frame coverage)



As for the current 19 AF points of the 7D, they are certainly better than Canon's ubiquitous 9pt systems, but rather vastly inferior to a reticular AF system...either the Nikon 51pt system or Canon's 61pt system are so much better, particularly for multi-point tracking, than the 19pt system with all the unused space between each point. Its not just about frame coverage, although that is certainly nice...its about density...and the 7D is certainly lacking against both the new entries in Canons pro line as well as quite a few bodies from Nikon's cameras released over the last few years.




pj1974 said:


> 3) 10FPS. Nice. As long as I can choose eg 3fps, 5fps, 8fps and 10fps. But 8fps is enough.



Not sure I agree 8fps is enough...there are plenty of times that I've shot BIF and other bird moments (and even wildlife) in action and missed the best moment, as it was between frames. Wouldn't have that problem with 10fps, at least not as much. Totally agree about being able to configure the low speed AF mode.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 21, 2012)

candyman said:


> A 7D successor is coming. I am convinced. Especially after seeing that Camerashops are offering the current 7D with a present (like a Wacom tablet) I do believe they do that to get rid of their stock samples.
> 
> I hope the 7D MKII will inherit the 61-AF
> - 61-point AF with up to 41 cross-type AF points
> ...



I can't make any sense of this whatsoever.


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## dlleno (Aug 21, 2012)

Bosman said:


> jouster said:
> 
> 
> > willis said:
> ...



yea, and the 5d3 AF ,by itself, is no slouch and a reasonably capable sports body in its own right. to avoid being a yawn, 7d2 will have to improve upon the 7D in a way similar to the 5D3/5D2. theres no way, imho, Canon can meet the rumored specs in this thread without an H sensor... oh dear did I just open that can again?


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## Richard8971 (Aug 21, 2012)

Seems logical to me, even if the camera will come out next year. These specs lend themself to the fact that even IF the 70D is released, it will surpass the 70D and remain the king of ASP-C! The 70D will likely be 20-22 MP and 6-8 FPS, if Canon makes the 70D! 

D


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## Gcon (Aug 21, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Sounds good to me... I'll believe the "noticeably lower noise than the current 18MP," when I see the RAW files, and not a moment sooner. :



I'd believe it without seeing the RAW files. I can't stand the noise levels of the 18MP sensor. I've mentioned that before on CR, and the 7D fanboy brigade got sand in their crevices and claimed that the 7D was the equal of the 5D Mark II, and really the noise was due to my lack of photo taking abilities and understanding of the gear, irrespective of the fact that I was talking about base ISO in ideal conditions for the 7D (lots of light, high quality glass, tripod, perfectly sharp aperture). I pity the fools.


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## candyman (Aug 21, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> candyman said:
> 
> 
> > A 7D successor is coming. I am convinced. Especially after seeing that Camerashops are offering the current 7D with a present (like a Wacom tablet) I do believe they do that to get rid of their stock samples.
> ...


 
Neither can I, so help me here....


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## anselwannab (Aug 21, 2012)

candyman said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > candyman said:
> ...



I think what you are saying is that just as people compare rough feature sets of the 7D and the MKIII, the 7DII will have a feature set that is close to the MkIV. Those two camera sets also seem to have similar price points to the comparable cameras. $1500 for the 7D and MKIII and the IV seems to be moving towards the probably intro price of a 7DII.

Forgive me if I have mistranslated, the I see the concept of a symmetry in Canon's movements, so I might not be correct.


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## candyman (Aug 21, 2012)

hjulenissen said:


> On the other hand, Canon (and Nikon) seems to be reshuffling line-ups all over, so perhaps the 7Dmk2 will instead be targeted at landscape and macro photographers?
> 
> -h


 
I hope not. I like to have a sports/BIF camera in the APS-C segment.


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## nicku (Aug 21, 2012)

hjulenissen said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > yea, and the 5d3 AF ,by itself, is no slouch and a reasonably capable sports body in its own right. to avoid being a yawn, 7d2 will have to improve upon the 7D in a way similar to the 5D3/5D2.
> ...



I believe 7D2 will be more related to 1DX as a action/sports/wildlife camera rather the 5D3. I believe the 70D will be related to the 5D3.

In the past were: 1DS3 - flagship; 1D4 ( pro body for sports and action) 5D2 as all around affordable FF.

Now we have: 1Dx - flagship; 5D3 as all around FF, and the APS-C bodies. 

It's missing something. The missing link may be a big MP body dedicated to studio/landscapes or a sports/wildlife camera with a lower price than the flagship. 
Who knows maybe we will see both


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## candyman (Aug 21, 2012)

anselwannab said:


> candyman said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...


 
Exaclty. Spot on.

btw I know that the AF-61 points of the FF can not be inherited 1:1 to APS-C. I hope for a more advanced AF in the 7D MKII than the 19 points. Though this one is already very nice.


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## RGomezPhotos (Aug 21, 2012)

Pretty amazing specs. This has to be a crop camera though. If I was a sports photographer, I'd be up for this big time.


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## Secretariat (Aug 21, 2012)

What are the chances in percent-wise that a CR1 will come true?
Thanks.


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## marekjoz (Aug 21, 2012)

Secretariat said:


> What are the chances in percent-wise that a CR1 will come true?
> Thanks.



I think it's time for some fun: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=8822.0


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## pj1974 (Aug 21, 2012)

jrista said:


> pj1974 said:
> 
> 
> > 1) 18MP is great for me. I'd rather have lower noise than more MP. Phase AF on chip sounds good!
> ...



I'm very aware that FPPD is used in Live View & Video. I don't use video much (but do on occasion with success) - and use liveview at times for landscape and macro in particular. While I'd also prefer a 5D or 1D series Canon body for video, I choose to use and spend my money on other goods, services and donations.
My main point in my post above was that I'd prefer lower noise as the main sensor enhancement. Secondly, that any improvement to phase AF would be a positive. 



jrista said:


> pj1974 said:
> 
> 
> > 2) The current 19pt AF system works very well for me. Ok - extra AF points = handy (I like wide frame coverage)
> ...



As I've used both a Nikon 51pt system and the Canon 5DIII's 61pt AF system, I can comment on this too. While superior to the 7D, I have practised and mastered the 7D's 19pt AF system (including customising CFn settings to suit my style) so that I've captured thousands of challenging BIF photos with great results. I expect using a 1DX would improve my keep rate further still. Also bear in mind that the 7D's AF sensors extend further than the AF squares in the VF.



jrista said:


> pj1974 said:
> 
> 
> > 3) 10FPS. Nice. As long as I can choose eg 3fps, 5fps, 8fps and 10fps. But 8fps is enough.
> ...



For *me* 8fps is enough in most cases. I'd like the 14fps of the 1DX.. but again, I'm choose
In my experience of both wildlife (including birds) and sports, the keeper rate is not directly correlated to the FPS. The difference between 8fps and 10fps isn't huge... but can help. Still 8FPS is generally enough for me.

Wishing you a good day!


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## keithcooper (Aug 21, 2012)

Secretariat said:


> What are the chances in percent-wise that a CR1 will come true?
> Thanks.


Well, if you follow back to the actual source for the link... I don't use a rating system 

It's come from someone I don't know well, but who has given a few good tips before (but fairly close to a launch)

Percentages imply rather more precision than I've ever really thought the rumour pages warranted.

I do however have a serious 'WTF' category that doesn't even make consideration for inclusion. Perhaps I should sometimes mention a few of these to put the others in context ;-)


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## cinema-dslr (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm hoping for 24Mp aps-h so the aps-c sensor will revert to the xxd,xxxd,xxxxd series
The 1D-cinema uses aps-h crop for 4k video so the 7DII could be the baby cinema without the 4k.

In many ways the 7d was the more video orientated camera than the 5dII was.

canon just released a new 18Mp aps-c sensor with Phase AF on chip, wouldn't it be more logic if they used that chip in all the new aps-c camera's. just as they did with the original 7d 18Mp sensor.

If they had the aps-c 24Mp Phase AF on chip ready why not use it in the 650d?


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## Marine03 (Aug 21, 2012)

I want a 7D2 or the 6D but feel the 7D2 is further out as there has been a fair amount of chatter about a 6D and now 3D and I doubt canon would revamp the entire lineup in one year. 

I'm guessing 6D and then before Christmas 3D. How many more were supposed to be announced?


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 21, 2012)

So, a 7D Mark II that will priced and have features above the 5D Mark III? Uhhhh, no. You'll have to rename it. And if it's not renamed, it isn't coming out ANYTIME soon.


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## dlleno (Aug 21, 2012)

nicku said:


> hjulenissen said:
> 
> 
> > dlleno said:
> ...



exactly. I'd suggest that both are missing links: The Big MP body-almost-medium-format-answer-to-the-D800 may be the 6D. the sports camera with a lower price than the flagship is more difficult to figure out because of what Canon did to the 1D4. 

The 1Dx embodied the stated changes in Canon's strategy, which was to merge the 1D and 1Ds lines. And merge they did -- the 1Dx has best sports/wildlife capabilities and IQ combination to date. But it is missing one feature: Reach. A sports/wildlife camera with a lower price than the flagship would, imho, be either of these two possibilities:

1. If Canon expects the sports togs to carry a 2nd body, it would essentially be a 1D4 successor -- a king of the crops, and something capable of putting "more pixels on the image" to produce _convincingly better IQ than cropping the best FF output for the equivalent FOV _. We've hashed this ad nausium, but imho Canon can't do that with today's "C" sensors. It would have to be an H or some new and distruptive C sensor that no one has yet even rumored about

2. If Canon expects the sports togs to "do without the reach", and carry two 1Dx bodies, then in this case the bar is lower and the "sports/wildlife camera with a price tag lower than the flagship" is a prosumer APS-C, highly capable sports body with only a small improvement in IQ compared to cropping a FF for equivalent FOV. They could even use the T4i sensor, which of course would be a big yawn.


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## Marine03 (Aug 21, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> So, a 7D Mark II that will priced and have features above the 5D Mark III? Uhhhh, no. You'll have to rename it. And if it's not renamed, it isn't coming out ANYTIME soon.



There is zero reason why the 7D2 would not have better features for less money than the 5D3 that's what the original 7D had over the 5D2 other than sensor.


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## Bosman (Aug 21, 2012)

APS-H Please!


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 21, 2012)

Marine03 said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > So, a 7D Mark II that will priced and have features above the 5D Mark III? Uhhhh, no. You'll have to rename it. And if it's not renamed, it isn't coming out ANYTIME soon.
> ...



The 7D had better features? Like what? Less IQ? Less MP? It did have better AF, which many on here will disagree with for whatever reason. I happen to enjoy the better AF of the 7D over the 5D2. To have better features than a 5D Mark III, it's going to have to be priced above the 5D3. The only camera with better features right now, current model, is the 1DX. Exactly what features are you suggesting that it will have improved over the 5D Mark III? I can't think of any that wouldn't put it above price and above model. If it's just more MP, then I'm not sure this will entice anyone to buy that instead of a 5D3, UNLESS it is much less in cost. Is this the improvement you foresee?


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## Unposed-Jeff (Aug 21, 2012)

We have a 5D II and a 7D, and although the 7D doesn't have the resolution or low light capability of the 5D II, its in camera speed is unmatched. The 5D II feels so sluggish after using the 7D. I am excited about a 7D II that would have 24mp sensor and still great speed. Even if it is far above the current 7D price point. It would never replace the 5 series to us, but the pair make for fantastic shoots. If the 7D II is for real, we will be looking to but both the new 7 and the 5D III this spring.


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## jrista (Aug 22, 2012)

Bosman said:


> APS-H Please!



On the 7D, APS-H would ONLY be acceptable if it was accompanied by a versatile APS-C crop mode that worked properly with all EF-S lenses. Personally, I would prefer if APS-H was left to a higher-end body, preferably equipped with a multi-point f/8 AF sensor.


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## surfing_geek (Aug 22, 2012)

sounds like a fair replacement to me. i wish this was true, but gut feeling is that someone has just sent in their wishlist.


let's hope when it does come though, it remains at APS-C!


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## Bosman (Aug 22, 2012)

If Canon isn't treading over some Nikon patent for a larger sensor creating a smaller image circle similar to the aps-c then i hope they do it, making the camera very flexible. The only thing would be even if they did this the ef-s lenses still wouldn't work with it is my understanding.


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## dlleno (Aug 22, 2012)

jrista said:


> Bosman said:
> 
> 
> > APS-H Please!
> ...



no argument there, if 7D2 is aimed at approximately the same market as 7D. Unfortunately, an APS-C crop mode would not be capable of reducing the size of the mirror, a dimmentional challenge that limits the possibility of using the short-back focus lenses with the larger "H" sensor. I haven't seen any evidence that such a challenge can be overcome. It maybe possible I don't know - I just haven't seen evidence or desire on Canon's part to do it. I'm aware that some have even modified the EF-S 10-22mm lens for use on a FF (at 10mm the mirror strikes the lens). so maybe it can be done I dont know. 

maybe the body could operate in some sort of mirrorless mode to use the S lenses, but I dont' see that catching on either.

The biggest benefit, to me, of a crop mode is to reduce the size of the data transfer to increase fps, which is not necessary in the 7D world because of the dual processor and moderate pixel count. There is no IQ advantage that I can think of -- throwing away pixels is easy enough to do in post. 

Assuming that the mechanical challenge can be overcome, the point of a crop mode on such a camera would be to hide the imperfections outside of the image circle of the "S" lenses. Some sort of auto-detect would be necessary, along with a dual mount capability with the white index mark that we have today. That part is certainly doable. it just doesn't seem likely to me, that Canon would do this, as it would be too expensive for the market that depends on the S lenses. 



> Personally, I would prefer if APS-H was left to a higher-end body, preferably equipped with a multi-point f/8 AF sensor.



yea, and without APS-C mode  which this segment would not care about. The question that still bugs me is "what is the 2nd body that Canon expects the pro wildlife togs to carry"? These are the togs most likely to appreciate a 2x converter on a 600mm f/4, and would be more likely to accept the AF consequences just to "get the reach" -- and they are not to concerned about the UWA capability on a 2nd body optimized for wildlife.


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## jrista (Aug 23, 2012)

dlleno said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Bosman said:
> ...



Ah, good point about the mirror box...I guess that rules out any kind of APS-H with EF-S compatibility. I'm fine with that, so long as the 7D line remains APS-C.

Personally, I photograph birds, and you need reach for bird photography more than you need it for wildlife even. If there is one single thing that I think might make APS-C truly "professional grade", its f/8 AF in an APS-C body. If the 7D II had the specs below, I'd preorder one right now:

- Low-noise 24mp APS-C sensor (say 60%+ Q.E., which should give a noticeable noise advantage at high ISO)
- 41pt (21pt cross type) reticular AF sensor with 9pt center square, all 9pts of which are f/8 sensitive (41pt because I don't think you could actually pack 61pts into an APS-C frame)
- 10fps with 1000x card write support and a deep buffer...30 frames would be nice for the ability to do successive bursts for a long time
- CLEAN ISO 3200 and 6400

If Canon has some kind of thermoelectric cooling capabilities (as mentioned in the rumors about a 46mp bigmp body), then Canon could probably produce an APS-C sensor with industry-leading high-ISO performance and high readout speed that would trounce anything on the market now. My only concern would be power usage...TEC can be expensive from a power consumption standpoint.


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## dr croubie (Aug 23, 2012)

Actually, I might have to disagree on the mirror-size.
AFAIK (I've used a 1Dmk 2 or 3 but didn't look too closely at the mirror), the mirror is the same size as a FF mirror. At least the focussing screens are the same size as the 1Ds. So obviously mounting EF-s would be as impossible as mounting on FF.
But if we reduce the size of the mirror to actual APS-H size, maybe there would be room to still mount EF-S lenses? Anyone got a 1D lying around and want to shave bits off their mirror to try it out? :

Still, i'm definitely of the opinion that the 7D2 will be EF-s, if that means that it has to be APS-C, then so be it (but it's never going to be FF).

Also, just on the sensor-cooling, Heatpipes can be made damn small these days, just couple it to the metal shell and it should disappate enough heat (hey, if they can pull that off, it might mean the death of sensor-stabilisation such as in Pentaxes). The main problem would be stopping the heat going the other way, if it's 45 degrees outside that could heat the sensor up. A small Peltier device might help too (but now we're getting expensive...)


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## dlleno (Aug 23, 2012)

The reason that APS-H BIF body discussions go haywire is because they usually contain references to the numeral 7, and that brings all sorts of philosophical musings that don't address the issue, namely "what body does canon expect the BIF togs to use?" 

whatever technology is available in 'C' is also available in 'H' with a corresponding set of well known advantages to the larger pixel pitch. Whats compelling to me is the hole in Canon's current line-up -- the BIF/Wildlife optimized body. The 1Dx does everything except the reach part, and yea I totally get that BIFers are the ones who will take the AF performance hit for the ability to AF at all at f/8 -- so I do see room for a 1D4 successor, as long as we can keep the numeral 7 from coloring those discussions. Call the body whatever you want, or make it a C or an H; doesn't matter. 

I suspect, however, that if Canon produces another H body, it will of such a price point and specialty niche that no one will care about putting an S lens on it, and there will still be room for a 7D2 in 'C' form. Frankly I agree with those hoping that a new and disruptive "C" sensor is forthcoming and that the 2nd or BIF body will be the king of crops named the 7D2. To do that, however, such a camera would have to produce *convincingly * better IQ than cropping a 5D3 or a 1Dx image to the same FOV. who knows, maybe the BIF 2nd body will be mirrorless.


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 23, 2012)

Unposed-Jeff said:


> We have a 5D II and a 7D, and although the 7D doesn't have the resolution or low light capability of the 5D II, its in camera speed is unmatched. The 5D II feels so sluggish after using the 7D. I am excited about a 7D II that would have 24mp sensor and still great speed. Even if it is far above the current 7D price point. It would never replace the 5 series to us, but the pair make for fantastic shoots. If the 7D II is for real, we will be looking to but both the new 7 and the 5D III this spring.



Realistically I'd think a 7D Mark II (not likely) or a 70D (more likely) would go behind the 5D Mark III, much like the 7D went behind the 5D Mark II in 2009, in level and price. A higher MP camera will go between the 1DX and 5D Mark III. I don't see APS-H on the horizon.


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## funkboy (Aug 23, 2012)

jrista said:


> Bosman said:
> 
> 
> > APS-H Please!
> ...



That's been hashed out here several times in the past, & unfortunately the conclusion is that anything bigger than a 10D mirror will whack into the rear element of an EF-S lens.


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## Bosman (Aug 23, 2012)

funkboy said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Bosman said:
> ...


It was a joke, I started an ungodly thread about aps-h on a 7d to put it in the middle of the canon lineup not about mirror slap.


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## dlleno (Aug 23, 2012)

funkboy said:


> That's been hashed out here several times in the past, & unfortunately the conclusion is that anything bigger than a 10D mirror will whack into the rear element of an EF-S lens.



yea, and I just don't see the S factor as significant or important in the H discusssions. If Canon produces another H body, a lot of folks will have to seek therapy but such such a camera imho would target a segment that won't care about S lenses.


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## Unposed-Jeff (Aug 23, 2012)

My real question concerning C or H sensor is how many people on here are actually using a 7D with ef-s lens'? How many people spend that much on a camera, that much more for a 7D II upgrade and then puts $300 glass on it. Make it a pro crop camera! C or H, but actually make it a pro price point for the technology to separate it from all of the T series and xxD series cameras!

5D II, 7D, 70-200, L 24-70 L, 16-35 L, and a bunch more


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## tapanit (Aug 23, 2012)

Unposed-Jeff said:


> My real question concerning C or H sensor is how many people on here are actually using a 7D with ef-s lens'? How many people spend that much on a camera, that much more for a 7D II upgrade and then puts $300 glass on it.


I use mine a lot with the 17-55 and the 10-22 mm lenses, both of which admittedly did cost more than $300.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Aug 23, 2012)

tapanit said:


> Unposed-Jeff said:
> 
> 
> > My real question concerning C or H sensor is how many people on here are actually using a 7D with ef-s lens'? How many people spend that much on a camera, that much more for a 7D II upgrade and then puts $300 glass on it.
> ...




Ohhh EF-S... The 17-55 and the 10-22 are the only decent ef-s lenses. Furthermore, I see no need in the 17-55 if you already have the 10-22. Reality, there isn't much that the 17-55 offers that can't be done with the 10-22 combined with a 24-70 (or mix it up, 10-22 and 50 mm 1.4), or even the 24-105. The 17-55 just angers me, cause it really should be a EF mount, and at the cost it should also have L lens build quality (AKA weather sealed!!!)...


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## pharp (Aug 23, 2012)

tapanit said:


> Unposed-Jeff said:
> 
> 
> > My real question concerning C or H sensor is how many people on here are actually using a 7D with ef-s lens'? How many people spend that much on a camera, that much more for a 7D II upgrade and then puts $300 glass on it.
> ...


+1 10-22, 15-85 & 60 macro are the lenses I use most on my 7D - not cheap and in my view, on par optically with equivalant L glass. I just wish I could get these in L build quality - weathersealing would be nice. On a recent trip to Panama, the humidity [not rain] shut my 7D down for 3 days. I still wonder if that would have happened with sealed glass. Since Canon doesn't seem inclined to make such, I'm really looking at the OM-D, especially with the new 60mm macro if it turns out to be any good.


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## dlleno (Aug 23, 2012)

Unposed-Jeff said:


> My real question concerning C or H sensor is how many people on here are actually using a 7D with ef-s lens'? How many people spend that much on a camera, that much more for a 7D II upgrade and then puts $300 glass on it. Make it a pro crop camera! C or H, but actually make it a pro price point for the technology to separate it from all of the T series and xxD series cameras!
> 
> 5D II, 7D, 70-200, L 24-70 L, 16-35 L, and a bunch more



You might want to look up the prices of two important EF-S lenses that provide key capabilities ,found in no other lenses, for APS-C bodies at high IQ levels. 

an APS-C camera, as a 2nd body for pros and a primary body for prosumers, will be served well by the top EF-S lenses at those focal lengths. if the camera is a 2nd body or used exclusively for its reach, then thoses S lenses do not have to be mounted up. 

An H camera would be a niche for BIFers for whom the S lenses would provide no benefit anyway, even if they did fit.


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## dr croubie (Aug 24, 2012)

Unposed-Jeff said:


> My real question concerning C or H sensor is how many people on here are actually using a 7D with ef-s lens'? How many people spend that much on a camera, that much more for a 7D II upgrade and then puts $300 glass on it.



EF-s 15-85mm - $800
Sigma 8-16mm - $700

Those two together cost more than my 7D body. And the Sigma 8-16 on my 7D actually is better than either Sigma 12-24 mk1 or 2 on a FF camera. (And i've even mounted it on FF for shots at 15-16mm).
And there's a lot of people with the 17-55 f/2.8, that combo is half the price of a 5D2 and lens, and performs very well for the price...

Yes, I've got more expensive glass (70-300L), but I've also got a lot cheaper glass, most of my kit cost less than $300 per piece, and a lot of it performs better than more expensive lenses (i'm looking at you, samyang 35/1.4 and FL 55/1.2, among others)


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## mdm041 (Aug 24, 2012)

Yea I don't think this camera is going to happen. If it does...someone in Marketing should get fired for giving out an upgrade to the 7D...


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 24, 2012)

mdm041 said:


> Yea I don't think this camera is going to happen. If it does...someone in Marketing should get fired for giving out an upgrade to the 7D...



Correct.


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## CanNotYet (Aug 24, 2012)

One word: GIEF!


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## funkboy (Aug 24, 2012)

Unposed-Jeff said:


> My real question concerning C or H sensor is how many people on here are actually using a 7D with ef-s lenses?



I think the most common EF-S lenses used on the 7D are:


10-22
17-55 IS
15-85 IS
18-135 IS
60mm macro (often overlooked, very nice little lens. I'd get one if it had IS)
and probably many 17-85 ISs still running around out there too, even though it's not that great

Remember that a ton of 7Ds were sold with 15-85s and 18-135s as kit lenses (although they're still offering it with the 28-135 IS for folks that absolutely want a FF compatible lens in the kit).

Also bear in mind that the 7D replacement will be viewed as an upgrade path for 60D owners as well (and other xxD owners too).


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## CanNotYet (Aug 24, 2012)

funkboy said:


> Also bear in mind that the 7D replacement will be viewed as an upgrade path for 60D owners as well (and other xxD owners too).



True to that. I see the 7D I/II as my next upgrade, as I have a 30D with mostly EF-S lenses.


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## nicku (Aug 24, 2012)

mdm041 said:


> Yea I don't think this camera is going to happen. If it does...someone in Marketing should get fired for giving out an upgrade to the 7D...



It will happen .... 4 years ago nobody believed that Canon will put a APS-C sensor in a PRO level body with pro level features (creating a new EOS class) ...... and after counting 3 years of sales.... SUCCESS 

Somebody in the marketing department gets a big bonus+ salary rise in the 7D case.


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## coreyhkh (Aug 25, 2012)

I am pretty sure canon made a nice profit on the 7D its Price to performance ratio is very high though it could use an update in the noise department.


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## CatfishSoupFTW (Aug 26, 2012)

sounds odd to me that it has a higher MP count than 5dmrk3 and 1DX BUT more MP doesnt always scream a better camera. good specs though. diggin the 10 fps


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## bry (Aug 27, 2012)

The firmware for the 7D was rumored way before it came out, they were probably buying some time, and not too sure where to go with that camera.
If a new 7D comes out, it's most likely to compete on the video side with the new DSLRs that are about to come out. The 5D3 was a bit of a disappointment, and the 7D is the right camera to finally get the video specs right.

I'm not surprised at all if the specs are better than the 5D3, the first 7D was better than the 5D2 in so many aspects, but because of the difference in sensor size, it will not affect 5D3 sales, at least not for stills.

There's A LOT of new cameras coming out promising way better video than the current DSLRs. Canon has been holding off on video improvements for over 3 years now, and if it weren't for the competition they'd milk it for as long as they could, but now they might feel forced to step up pretty soon.


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## pj1974 (Aug 27, 2012)

I believe there are many 'very good' (to 'great'!) EF-S lenses (and lenses from other lens manufacturers that are designed around a crop body).

The Canon 15-85mm USM IS is my most used lens, it's very versatile with it's zoom range, has great IQ, built well (better than the 17-55mm USM IS) and the USM & IS features are cream on the cake. ;D

I also have a high quality Sigma 10-20mm HSM lens (similar to the Canon 10-22 USM). The Canon macro 60mm is popular for some people (though I have the Canon 100mm USM macro, as I prefer it for reach & working distance).

There are other good EF-S lenses (including the 18-55mm IS kit lens and 55-250mm IS lens too). For reach, I have the Canon 70-300mm L USM IS, which equates to 480mm in 35mm format. I love this lens... particularly what it can achieve on a APS-C. 

I've used full frame - put at this stage am staying with APS-C, as the versatility and cost benefits fit the right balance for me. The APS-H never really hit the mark for me... it was half way either side (in terms of APS-C vs FF).... though I can understand some (ie very limited) professional applications for a APS-H.

Love live the 7D... and here's hoping to some nice improvements in the 7DmkII... which will stay APS-C by the way! 8)

Regards,

Paul


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## unfocused (Aug 28, 2012)

pj1974 said:


> I believe there are many 'very good' (to 'great'!) EF-S lenses (and lenses from other lens manufacturers that are designed around a crop body).
> 
> The Canon 15-85mm USM IS is my most used lens, it's very versatile with it's zoom range, has great IQ, built well (better than the 17-55mm USM IS) and the USM & IS features are cream on the cake...
> 
> ...



Paul raised a good point. When the 70-300 "L" was introduced, Canon very clearly marketed it to APS-C cameras (as well as full frame). Same (but less successfully) with the 8-15 Fisheye. If anyone goes back and looks at the announcements of these lenses, it was clear that they were being marketed both for full frame and 7D owners.


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## AnselA (Aug 28, 2012)

great job - I don't want to imagine what mine would look like.


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## Richard8971 (Aug 28, 2012)

I am not sure why so many people out there think that unless your lenses are white or have a red stripe around the end of the barrel that they suck. 

I have the 7D and I have used and currently own EF-s lenses. One of my favorites that I will never get rid of is my 60mm EF-s macro. Note, I also own the 100mm EF macro and if I had to choose one I would keep the 60 over the 100. It is light, easy to use and extremely sharp. I love using it for macro work as the DOF is greater than the 100mm and 180mm, something i find very useful in 1:1 macro photography.

Now, if you choose not to use EF-s lenses than so be it. But Canon has proven that they are going to continue to support the EF-s format for a quite a long time and I have no reason to believe that they are going to make the 7D2 APS-H or even FF. It does NOT make for a good marketing choice. 

Don't think Canon cares about customers and their needs in hoping to upgrade? Belive it or not, _thousands_ of current 7D customers currently own and use EF-s lenses and Canon WILL target those people if and when they release an upgrade. Heck part of the beauty of upgrading TO the 7D was BECAUSE many Xti, 40D, 50D, Xsi, T1i, etc... owners HAD EF-s lenses!

The 7D2 will remain APS-C and will remain the top choice APS-C camera body. However, I DO believe that Canon will hold off on the 7D2 for a while longer for two reasons, they 1) hope to release a 5D2 replacement soon and 2) hope to intoduce a large MP FF to the mix. The V2 firmware upgrade was to keep current 7D owners happy until that time.

D

Photo was taken with the 7D w _EF-s 60mm macro_, hand held.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 28, 2012)

bry said:


> There's A LOT of new cameras coming out promising way better video than the current DSLRs. Canon has been holding off on video improvements for over 3 years now, and if it weren't for the competition they'd milk it for as long as they could, but now they might feel forced to step up pretty soon.



The thing is they should be charging ahead. Now instead of having the market cornered they will just be barely hanging on or following. They are way too conservative, slow, internal segment and milking oriented though.


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## distant.star (Aug 28, 2012)

Richard8971 said:


> I have the 7D and I have used and currently own EF-s lenses. One of my favorites that I will never get rid of is my 60mm EF-s macro. Note, I also own the 100mm EF macro and if I had to choose one I would keep the 60 over the 100. It is light, easy to use and extremely sharp. I love using it for macro work as the DOF is greater than the 100mm and 180mm, something i find very useful in 1:1 macro photography.



I second this emotion for the EF-S 60mm. While great for basic macro, it's got a look no other lens has. This image was made holding a T2i in one hand and a flashlight in the other. (F/8.0 at 1/180)


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