# A Bit More About the New “Big White” Lenses Coming from Canon [CR3]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 17, 2018)

> Canon will be announcing two new “big white” lenses ahead of Photokina in September. While we do not know the exact focal length of which lenses are coming, we now know that they are version III lenses, so that means two of the EF 300 f/2.8L IS II, EF 400 f/2.8L IS II, EF 500 f/4L IS II and EF 600 f/4L IS II are going to see an update very soon.
> The last iterations of these lenses were announced in pairs. The first available lenses were the EF 300 f/2.8L IS II and the EF 400 f/2.8L IS II and then 5 months later, the EF 500mm f/4L IS II and EF 600 f/4L IS II were officially announced. Although, the latter two lenses received a development announcement at the same that the EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II and EF 400 f/2.8L IS II were officially announced...



Continue reading...


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## ethanz (Jul 17, 2018)

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Maybe the 400 f2.8 II will be cheaper then... better get the Beano! 

I'm guessing the updates will be similar to the 70-200. Not much to wow people with, but still a good update.


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## YuengLinger (Jul 17, 2018)

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Waiting to learn more about the FF mirrorless mount.


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## basisunus (Jul 17, 2018)

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Although less likely, the EF 400mm DO IS III is also a possibility.


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## scyrene (Jul 17, 2018)

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YuengLinger said:


> Waiting to learn more about the FF mirrorless mount.



I don't see what bearing that has on this. If they're version III lenses, they are EF (that's how the numbering goes). Which means Canon is expecting EF to have another good few years left (which should surprise nobody).


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## JMZawodny (Jul 17, 2018)

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Yawn


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## Cryve (Jul 17, 2018)

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The most important improvement would be weight and size reduction.

Other improvments could be:

Better weight balance
Custom button on the lens
Built in teleconverter 
better coatings


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 17, 2018)

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JMZawodny said:


> Yawn



Not much use for your selfies and Facebook cat pics, then?


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 17, 2018)

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Cryve said:


> Better weight balance



There's _nothing_ wrong with the weight distribution of the current 500mm f/4 Mk II...


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## fullstop (Jul 17, 2018)

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YuengLinger said:


> Waiting to learn more about the FF mirrorless mount.



well, as much as I expect Canon FF MILCs to come with a new native mount: *even I* think we are a few years away from seeing Canon super-teles with native EF-X mount. Those brand-new 2018 EF versions of big whites will (hopefully) be fully prepared for firmware upgrades to work well on future Canon [EF-X] cameras.


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## ethanz (Jul 17, 2018)

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Keith_Reeder said:


> Cryve said:
> 
> 
> > Better weight balance
> ...



The 400 2.8 is mighty front heavy.


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## nitram (Jul 17, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*



ethanz said:


> I'm guessing the updates will be similar to the 70-200. Not much to wow people with, but still a good update.



Having been a lurker for some time now, I am about 90% convinced that the EF mount that will remain. However, the refreshes will likely bring new technology that improves AF speed on mirrorless. This will be possible via the introduction of new focusing motors as well as an upgraded electronic interface between lens and camera. Due to better focus data negotiation between the 'mover' and the 'brain', faster as well as more accurate focus acquisition and tracking will be achieved. In addition to these mirrorless prep upgrades, I would expect the same lens coating technology to make its way to THE standard pro sports lens series. While one might scoff at coatings (hey what, it's only a new coat of polish?!), it can (as most readers of this site already know) make a massive difference. The fact that the formula to the coatings are kept as secret as they are, reveals the amount of work that has gone into Canon's R&D in this area. 

[EDIT: I first gained a proper appreciation for Canon's work when I watched Roberto Abraham's (University of Toronto) presentation on the early results of Dragonfly - a telescope made up of bundles of EF 400 f/2.8L IS II lenses - 48 to be precise! The optics challenge is brilliantly described for those that have the interest to learn: https://youtu.be/EUr1mxanYmc. More information on the equipment can be found here: http://www.dunlap.utoronto.ca/instrumentation/dragonfly/] 

Either way, I can also imagine Canon having tried out integrating carbon fiber into its barrel design. While it is true that the material is stiffer and could thus better protect the lenses during a fall, at a certain point, catastrophic failure can occur in the form of cracking which is quite difficult to repair. During the development cycle of its 787, Boeing and its contractors had to spend a large amount on research into the repair procedures and characteristics of fixed fuselages. Of course, metal alloy construction is better established in the industry and is cheaper. My hunch is that once set up, carbon fiber laminating machines are actually cheaper to operate than metal alloys but please correct me if I am wrong. Then again, I always see many pros working from monopods for hour long games so maybe weight reduction is indeed a nice to have but not a must have... Let us see in a few weeks' time


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## AlanF (Jul 17, 2018)

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Cryve said:


> The most important improvement would be weight and size reduction.
> 
> Other improvments could be:
> 
> ...



Built in teleconverter increases weight and size.


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## takesome1 (Jul 17, 2018)

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I am not buying this rumor, at least the version III part.
Those lenses just haven't been out long enough.

Whatever happened to the 800mm II, I could believe that one it is long overdue.


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## Canoneer (Jul 17, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*

I'd really like to see Canon's Diffractive Optics technology start to become more mainstream in their fast super-telephoto primes. The early DO models suffered from some weird bokeh artifacts (onions), but that's mostly come under control with the latest 400mm f/4 DO IS II.

I guess the million dollar question is - has Canon advanced their DO manufacturing processes to make the cutting and polishing of large elements (needed in the 400mm f/2.8 & 600mm f/4) economically feasible? I think it's a fair argument that, as niche as the fast super-telephoto prime market is, there's a greater potential to gain market share by halving the size and dropping the weight by 60% for these great whites with the adoption of DO technology. More so I would say than any other single improvement (advanced coatings, improved IS, new paint... et cetera).

What would be really awesome is a 28-300mm F/3.5-5.6L DO IS. It's demand is a bit sparse, with the current model being a push/pull zoom. But trimming some fat and shrinking the volume of the current model with diffractive optics would make it my all-time favorite everyday lens.


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## DanCarr (Jul 17, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*

If this is true, that's way less exciting 

Launch the 600 DO and take my money!! 

I can't imagine they would launch new a 600 III before they at least giving more information about the 600 DO, right? I'm waiting to buy a 600, but I wouldn't buy a 600 III without seeing the 600 DO first.

I'm struggling to see how they would even have a 600 DO and a 600 III in the same lineup as it is? The 400 DO works, because there isn't another 400 f/4 in the lineup. If both a 600 III and 600 DO were both f/4, I can't see why people would ever buy the III version. the 400 DO II has proved that image quality of DO lenses has come far enough that they can be compared to the other big whites, and that is a lens that is now a few years old. I know there might be a higher cost for a DO lens? Maybe? But once you get to prices in that range, people are buying them as serious tools and the cost is slightly less important.

If these are just new 300s and 400s it's going to be as exciting as that new 70-200 f/2.8 was


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## wtlloyd (Jul 17, 2018)

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This is pretty much exactly what I said in the previous lens thread. A refresh ala the 70-200 f/2.8 IS L. Nothing more.


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## BeenThere (Jul 17, 2018)

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8)


wtlloyd said:


> This is pretty much exactly what I said in the previous lens thread. A refresh ala the 70-200 f/2.8 IS L. Nothing more.


If this rumor is true, then there must be something more to these lenses than we are being told. As has been mentioned, there may be a faster communication protocol being implemented to be compatible with future cameras, or better AF motors to improve on focus speed or accuracy. Maybe somethings else? But optics improvements alone dont’t seem to be worth the effort when consumers are asking for other lenses.


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## Buck (Jul 17, 2018)

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Can I get first in line when they discount the old model by 50% to clean out the old model inventory?


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## Etienne (Jul 17, 2018)

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I wish Canon would make a lightweight 400 f/5.6L IS for us mere mortals.
The 100-400 is nice, but heavy and expensive.


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## RGF (Jul 17, 2018)

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the lack of discussion of the 600 DO is interesting. The DO would be a great weight reduction improvement


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## applecider (Jul 17, 2018)

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RGF said:


> the lack of discussion of the 600 DO is interesting. The DO would be a great weight reduction improvement



A 600mm f4 DO that took external extenders like the 400 DO does would be at the top of my wish list, canon just needs to produce them already. Maybe they are planning to tie release with the 7Diii or full mirrorless one FM1, or even 1DXiii.


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## gunship01 (Jul 17, 2018)

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Etienne said:


> I wish Canon would make a lightweight 400 f/5.6L IS for us mere mortals.
> The 100-400 is nice, but heavy and expensive.



The line starts back here.....

I think the 600 is a great lens - would like to get a copy.


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## JMZawodny (Jul 17, 2018)

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Keith_Reeder said:


> JMZawodny said:
> 
> 
> > Yawn
> ...



Cute!

No, I do not find the weight of either my 300mm or 500mm to be excessive. I also think it would difficult to improve on their optical performance. Personally, I was hoping for either an update to the 200f2 or the release of the 600DO. I'd like a longer lens if it was no heavier than the 500. I doubt the 600 could lose that much without going DO.


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## ethanz (Jul 17, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 17, 2018)

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Probably just enough of an upgrade to crush the resale value of my 600 II. Thanks Canon . A 600 DO might be nice but not sure how significant the weight and size reduction would be and there would certainly be some cost to the IQ. The 400 f4 DO is not a particularly long or fast lens and gets a pass on IQ since there isn't another natural telephoto for comparison. That won't be the case at 600. As a function of focal length, I think the 600 f4's are the fastest lens Canon has ever made so the front optic will be a monster regardless. It will also require a similar hood. The 600 II's hood is almost the size of the 400 f4 DO all by itself. I'd like something lighter but I use the 600 II for it's imaging properties. Not because its convenient. I'd only upgrade if the new lens offered some really compelling advantage. Doubt I'd be tempted by DO alone.


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## Dfunk99 (Jul 17, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

Not interested in ANY Big lenses - needed are: 20mm 2.8 or 20mm f2.0; 28mm 1.8 IS, a New 50mm 1.4, 100mmf2.0IS & a 24-120L IS - Nikon has one of those.


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## Maiaibing (Jul 17, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

Could not justify buying the 300mm f/2.8 IS L II on its improved optics over the original (although the arrival of the 5DS/R did move the post a little). However, it did bring some other advantages; better handling, lower weight, IS mode III, a much more silent IS motor etc. that I have valued.

Think it will prove very, very to justify buying a possible 300mm f/2.8 IS L III unless Canon does something akin to "magic" like a massive weight reduction (>400g). 

Optically, I cannot see the current 300mm f/2.8 IS L II being beat by any kind of margin that would indicate a reason to upgrade. Its Canon's best performer imho.


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## krisbell (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

Damn, I wanted the 600 DO so bad!

I'm personally not particularly interested in an upgrade on the current version IIs unless there is a massive weight saving AND built in teleconverters.


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## unfocused (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

People need to read the post. These are version III lenses. That means they aren't going to be DO or have built-in converters or anything else that makes them significantly different from the II versions.

These are not aimed at people who already own the II versions. Canon does not expect you to upgrade. These will be substituted in the line up for the IIs, just like the 70-200 f2.8 III. Target market are new buyers and professionals whose use cases involve lots of heavy use and abuse (think sports photographers) and who may need a replacement for an older, well-used model.

Still, that doesn't keep me from hoping that we might see a few of the II versions in the used/refurbished market.


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## YuengLinger (Jul 18, 2018)

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scyrene said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Waiting to learn more about the FF mirrorless mount.
> ...



Congratulations! You've just hit the nail on the head. It could very well be that the only reason Canon is "updating" nearly optimal lenses is to reassure those thinking of buying now that EF will be around for a few more years.

For those who doubt there would be a reason to upgrade from version II to version III, you aren't the target buyers. 

I really think this explains several of the head-scratcher minimal updates we have seen and are hearing rumors about.


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## Don Haines (Jul 18, 2018)

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YuengLinger said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > YuengLinger said:
> ...



Yes.....

Recently Canon has updated the 100-400, the 70-200’s, and now some big whites are next..... Somehow, people will determine that this means EF is dead.....


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## YuengLinger (Jul 18, 2018)

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Don Haines said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



Clearly the 100-400mm, released two years ago as a complete revision of its predecessor, is not part of the discussion, Don. It's the very minimal, gratuitous "updates" we've seen in the past year which suggest that Canon, feeling some heat about mirrorless, is trying to keep the EF line going until a transition is acheived.


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## Don Haines (Jul 18, 2018)

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YuengLinger said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > YuengLinger said:
> ...



Any L lens with fluorite elements is a couple years to bring to production and needs several years sales to recover costs. Changing mounts is a huge thing.... any decision would have been made at least 5 years ago, more likely closer to 10 years.... if they were about to abandon the lensmount, we would have been complaining about no new lenses for at least 5 years.... Remember Olympus and abandoning the 4/3 mount for micro 4/3? 4 or 5 years with no new lenses before they pulled the plug......

Some people feel that Canon must make a Sony sized FF body to compete with Sony, but when you factor in the lens sizes, there is very little difference in kit size, yet you have abandoned the ergonomics that make Canon a better choice than Sony. You don’t fight a battle according to the enemies strengths and Canon is smart enough to realize that. If you want the ultimate in quality, you need FF sensors, big glass, and the ergonomics and controls to allow you to properly operate the camera. If you want small size, forget FF, go crop, and use some F6.3 kit lenses....


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## YuengLinger (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

There will be two FF mounts. They will exist together for a time. And then there will be one.

Time frame? No idea.

So, quite a while before "I told you so!" from either side of the question.


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## timmy_650 (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

Lets hope it is another announcement that they are updating the paint color again.


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## gcrimmins (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

An annoying aspect of the minor lens upgrades is that Canon will only repair a lens for about seven years after it's discontinued. After that you either have to upgrade to the new lens or hope that one of the independent repair shops will have the parts to repair the old model. One of those shops states on their website "Canon discontinued authorizing all service centers on newer products as they came out starting with the L-Series II Lenses and Flash EX II series."


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## unfocused (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



gcrimmins said:


> An annoying aspect of the minor lens upgrades is that Canon will only repair a lens for about seven years after it's discontinued...



I know that's often been said here on CR and assume that is Canon's official policy, but I wonder if anyone has any actual experience with this, especially regarding the big whites. I'm sure Canon eventually runs out of replacement parts, but I also think it would be bad customer relations for them if they stick to an arbitrary time frame for the expensive big whites.

Anyone have any actual experience with Canon not fixing an older big white? And how old are we talking?


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## Ozarker (Jul 18, 2018)

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YuengLinger said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > YuengLinger said:
> ...



I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of the people complaining will never be the market (or in the market) for this focal length from Canon, version II or version III or DO. Complaining is more a hobby to them than photography. I think it's called "posing". Wild hogs!!!


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## Ozarker (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



YuengLinger said:


> There will be two FF mounts. They will exist together for a time. And then there will be one.
> 
> Time frame? No idea.
> 
> So, quite a while before "I told you so!" from either side of the question.



When? 2030? 2040? Not anytime soon unless these updates are to make a mount change on the lens easier. Pretty safe bet you made there... or maybe not.


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## Don Haines (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



CanonFanBoy said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > There will be two FF mounts. They will exist together for a time. And then there will be one.
> ...



It is based on the assumption that when Canon goes mirrorless that they will both discontinue (eventually) mirrored cameras and that the new mount will be a much shorter distance... This assumption may not be correct.

The advantage of a smaller body is that you have a smaller body.

The disadvantages of a smaller body are less space for battery (no LP-6 compatibility), less space for controls, greatly changed balance, poor ergonomics, lesser quality optics, loss of legacy glass coupled with a need to make a whole new line of new glass, and that the general public perceives small bodies as not professional cameras, and that when you include lenses into your kit both kits are essentially the same size.... This seems like throwing away all the advantages Canon has, to compete against an established product on their terms, and risk alienating most of their current user base to do so.


Canon said it was going to be an elegant solution....Throwing out everything to start again is not an elegant solution.... an elegant solution would be to keep the existing mount and upgrading the firmware/hardware on new lenses/cameras to accept a higher speed camera/lens data pipe and more lens computing power to give better AF and IS performance..... and allow you to mount crop lenses on the FF camera. The elegant solution could also include a dock like sigma and Tamron to reprogram lenses (or use a tethered body) to adjust lens parameters......


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## Trigger (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

Unless the price is exorbitant, I'll be buying a 500 III instantly, so how long does one have to wait for actual availability after official announcement - or does it really vary, and unknowable?


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## scottkinfw (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Maiaibing said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > Could not justify buying the 300mm f/2.8 IS L II on its improved optics over the original (although the arrival of the 5DS/R did move the post a little). However, it did bring some other advantages; better handling, lower weight, IS mode III, a much more silent IS motor etc. that I have valued.
> ...



This is not a $300.00 lens. For most people, myself included, the 300mm 2.8 II is not at all old, and I would not fork over another $6500+, even if this new lens was a huge upgrade. 

Scott


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## Kim Photo Addict (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

I really don't understand why Canon keep launching new EF lens.
while Canon is going to announce a full frame mirror less camera very soon.

Is it possible that its full frame mirror less camera still use EF mouth??


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## applecider (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

500 iii availability will vary the big box boys bhphotovideo adorama etc. may have some but there may be a wait maybe upto tree months.

For one of the releases I think it was the 400ii my local pro photo supply had one or two allocated and I walked in the door the day they were demoing it I paid list but got it.


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## tapanit (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Don Haines said:


> ... the assumption that when Canon goes mirrorless that they will both discontinue (eventually) mirrored cameras and that the new mount will be a much shorter distance... This assumption may not be correct.
> ...
> Canon said it was going to be an elegant solution....Throwing out everything to start again is not an elegant solution.... an elegant solution would be to keep the existing mount and upgrading the firmware/hardware on new lenses/cameras to accept a higher speed camera/lens data pipe and more lens computing power to give better AF and IS performance..... and allow you to mount crop lenses on the FF camera. The elegant solution could also include a dock like sigma and Tamron to reprogram lenses (or use a tethered body) to adjust lens parameters......



I can think of four different solutions to the mirrorless FF mount problem:

(1) EF-M variant that requires an adapter to mount EF lenses. Not exactly elegant.

(2) EF as is with just internal changes like you describe (or rather EF-S to allow mounting crop lenses, too). I don't think this is particularly elegant either.

(3) A new EF-compatible mount, similar to EF-S in that it'd allow mounting EF lenses directly but also new EF-X lenses that'd protrude much deeper into the body. Short focal length EF-X lenses could all but disappear inside the body keeping the combination small, and there'd be no need to do anything with longer lenses. That would be an elegant solution in my view.

(4) A combination of the above: big bodies with EF-X mount as above and small bodies with EF-M2 (or whatever, EF-M compatible) mount plus an adapter that allows mounting EF and EF-X lenses (maybe EF-S too). This would have the potential to make everybody happy, though it'd require maintaining two lines of short lenses (EF-X and EF-M), but that's nothing new.

I'm kind of hoping for (4).


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## YuengLinger (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



CanonFanBoy said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > There will be two FF mounts. They will exist together for a time. And then there will be one.
> ...




The EF mount is now 31 years old. What if in 2025 Canon announces they are going to discontinue the EF mount. At what point between now and then would you feel aggravated that you've spent $10k or $20k on new Big Whites? Maybe the adapters for the new mounts will be great and the performance hit will be negligilbe. That would remove some of the sting.

As far as who will buy a big white and who is allowed to participate in your discussions, I'm in a position now where I could use one, but I am holding back to see what the long term future of the Canon system is going to look like. While I can't read tea leaves, knowing what the mount will be on the upcoming FF mirrorless would either convince me EF is here to stay or is on its way out.


I maintain that the insignificant improvements in the latest updates suggests a new mount is coming for mirrorless. On this I will be proved wrong or right soon.


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## fullstop (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



YuengLinger said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > YuengLinger said:
> ...



agree. 

Just as an aside with no immediate bearing on future EF-X mount ... "wearing my Canapologist hat for a moment": I can only think of 2 Canon EF L lens updates in the last couple of years that were "rather insignificant": 70-200/2.8 L IS III and EF 24-105 L IS II. All others like 100-400 II, 70-200/4 IS III, all the big white Mk. II versions ... were "totally worthwhile". But maybe i am missing something. 

That said: I really would see other priorities atm for Canon lens department than Mk. III versions of big whites. They should be beaver busy working on those EF-X lenses. Plus - as very last new EF lens ever to be made - an EF 50mm f/1.x IS USM for Ahsanford for course. ;D


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## photonius (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*



takesome1 said:


> I am not buying this rumor, at least the version III part.
> Those lenses just haven't been out long enough.
> 
> Whatever happened to the 800mm II, I could believe that one it is long overdue.



Probably like the recent 70-200 f2.8 update, mainly new coatings. maybe as mentioned in this case, shave a bit off the weight as well. Maybe some internals that one does not see to improve communication with upcoming FF mirrorless (could also be inside the new 70-200 lenses, but it's not something that anybody can see)


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## YuengLinger (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

Right. As with many updates, the target customer is not an owner of the current model, but somebody with an earlier generation lens or buying for the first time.

We are so conditioned now, as electronics consumers, to believe anything more than a couple of years old is out of date, that even optimal products must be given a new coat of paint and version number. (But that's better than automobile customers, right?)


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Canon Rumors said:


> What sort of upgrades should we expect from new super telephoto lenses? I think a big one will be weight reduction,



Worth pointing out that for the MkI to MkII updates, the 400 and 600 saw weight reductions of over 25%, while the 300 and 500 only dropped less than 10% of their weight. To me, that suggests we'll see updates to the 300 and 500.


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## tron (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*



ethanz said:


> Maybe the 400 f2.8 II will be cheaper then... better get the Beano!
> 
> I'm guessing the updates will be similar to the 70-200. Not much to wow people with, but still a good update.


I am sorry but you contradicted yourself. Not much to wow people with means not a good update. Especially the 2.8 version. Not good update at all. If they make similar updates none will feel the need to upgrade (which is a good thing for their wallets  ) Also keep in mind that going from version I to II the white teles had already a noticeable reduction in weight and an increase in IQ. So these updates will most probably not be significant.


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## BeenThere (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



unfocused said:


> gcrimmins said:
> 
> 
> > An annoying aspect of the minor lens upgrades is that Canon will only repair a lens for about seven years after it's discontinued...
> ...


I’ve had two big white Canon lenses die and become unrepairable because of parts non availability. First was 600mm f/4 non IS version purchased new and never abused had the AF die. Second was the 300mm f4 nonIS, also AF died. This happened about a dozen year ago. Eventually sold both for parts. I am now wary of keeping very expensive lenses after they have been discontinued.


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## unfocused (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



BeenThere said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > gcrimmins said:
> ...



Interesting and good to know. Let me see if I'm doing the math right. 600mm f4 released in 1988 and I'm guessing discontinued after the IS version was released in 1999. You tried to have it repaired in 2004. Which means it became un-repairable five years after being discontinued. The 300 f4 (some might dispute that is truly a big white) released in 1991 and superseded by the IS version in 1997. You tried to have it repaired in 2004, or seven years after it was replaced by the IS version. 

That certainly would give me pause, especially before buying an older model lens.


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## tron (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



BeenThere said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > gcrimmins said:
> ...


OK My 300mm f/4L (non-IS) still works! True I haven't used much of it after 2012 but it has served me very well. It will by my backup lens to shoot the moon eclipse on an astrotrac mount if I fail to use the 300 2.8 with it due to size/weight. And I cannot see how the version II white super teles could be discontinued. I mean they can of course but it will not look very ethical on Canon. Not all places on earth are like US, UK (and some more) where big teles can be sold and bought new. But anyway being a hobbyist I use my white lenses rarely enough to not worry for them. And some (actually all) version II white teles are so good that I can live for them for many years. Even 5DsR with 500mm f/4L IS II with Ef2XIII which some may say is not an ideal combination gave me some very good and some excellent results.


----------



## Trigger (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



tron said:


> I cannot see how the version II white super teles could be discontinued. I mean they can of course but it will not look very ethical on Canon.



From what I understand, it's standard procedure for Canon to discontinue parts & service for any lens seven years after a new version is released. Nothing to do with ethics, but rather the economics of making & stocking all those old parts. Having said that, I think ten years would be a bit more reasonable.


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



BeenThere said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > gcrimmins said:
> ...



Add to the list a 600F4 that became a paperweight.....


----------



## ethanz (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Don Haines said:


> Add to the list a 600F4 that became a paperweight.....



A very cool looking paperweight though. 8)


----------



## Etienne (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*



gunship01 said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > I wish Canon would make a lightweight 400 f/5.6L IS for us mere mortals.
> ...



I'm sure the 600 is awesome, but it's way too much $$$$ for me. Even if I had the money for it, it's way too big and heavy for my uses. I'm counting every 100g nowadays. There's just too much stuff to carry around, and most of my work requires travel. I would probably bring a lightweight 400 f/5.6L IS, but even the 100-400 makes me pause and wonder if I can get by without it.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



unfocused said:


> BeenThere said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...




Exactly--and even more so if the mount is scheduled for phase out.


----------



## Hector1970 (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

So I am going to tell you something but don’t tell anyone.
Canon is going to upgrade 2 of its big whites but I won’t tell you which two.
All I can say is they will be version III.
What sort of half assed rumour is that?


----------



## YuengLinger (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

Don't tap on the glass or you'll make the fish nervous. :


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Kim Photo Addict said:


> Is it possible that its full frame mirror less camera still use EF mouth??



Yes. I would not assume Canon is going to release a camera (like Sony) using a deck of cards as a design model. 

In my opinion it would not be a smart move to make FF mirrorless one of those "50 Shades of Grey" bodies, though I make my "sub" carry around a Sony with a Canon 70-200 mounted. Comfortable awesomeness will be the order of things for Canon. Those tiny cameras might make sense for plastic EF and EF-s lenses. They do not make sense for somebody carrying around "L" glass, especially any of the white lenses.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



CanonFanBoy said:


> Kim Photo Addict said:
> 
> 
> > Is it possible that its full frame mirror less camera still use EF mouth??
> ...



Then why do you think Canon doesn't simply state that FF mirrorless will retain EF?


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



YuengLinger said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Kim Photo Addict said:
> ...



Because there won't be a change. Why mention something that is of no consequence? They don't tell you what color it will be. Is there any doubt it won't be black?

Look at all the buzz Canon is getting by not discussing the mount, unless we look at the "elegant" remarks concerning the mount... which can simply mean, "It works with the EF glass you already have. No changes there."

I honestly don't understand all the hyperventalating over the mount.

Mention FF mirrorless and a lot of people assume the thing has to be like a Sony. Not!


----------



## YuengLinger (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

EF is EF. An adapter to make EF work on FF mirrorless is something else, and a signal that EF as a native mount is headed towards nostalgia.

Seriously, for most lenses, the mount issue is not a huge deal. For Big Whites, something to think about until Canon delivers clarity.


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



YuengLinger said:


> EF is EF. An adapter to make EF work on FF mirrorless is something else, and a signal that EF as a native mount is headed towards nostalgia.



Maybe the adapter is to make EF-M work on FF mirrorless for those that want small and light? I don't know.

It still assumes that Canon mirrorless will be little like a Sony. I don't think so, unless two different versions come out... a full size DSLR type for comfort and a deck of cards type for the masochists. Maybe that's why we are hearing about two releases. That does not mean the full size camera will eventually go away. Maybe the two styles can exist in parallel forever. One for comfort and familiarity, and one for... whatever.

I don't think Canon's mention (very brief) signals EF will be going away at all. That, I think, is reading into the statement something that isn't there.

Come on guys. Unless you've held one of those mirrorless deck of cards monstrosities in your hands with an "L" lens attached, you have no idea what you are asking for. And for what? I keep hearing, "To give me more space in my bag." or "To save some weight". Do you really think it will make that much of a difference? Please. Either way doesn't save you the discomfort that goes along with it. It really is terrible.

BTW: It could also be a FF consumer grade camera, not on par with the 6D, 5D, or 1D lines. In other words, not intended for heavy lenses.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

Speaking for myself, I'm hoping I'm wrong, that EF will be the standard for years. But a pro FF body might be as good a justification as any to go with the next generation.


----------



## FramerMCB (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

So these maybe? ...Canon 500mm DO f5.6L IS and Canon 600mm DO f5.6L IS. I guess this would go against the "III" part of the rumor. 

So a 400mm f2.8L IS III (lighter due to Titanium body and/or Carbon fiber), better/updated coatings, improved IS response, same optical formula and possibly a built-in 1.4X extender - depending on the weight-savings. And a 600mm f4.0L IS III (with the same improvements as the 400mm (only w/o the built-in extender).

Ah...it's fun to prognosticate.


----------



## unfocused (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



YuengLinger said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > BeenThere said:
> ...



Let's get back on topic. This has nothing to do with an imagined "phase out" of a lens mount, which shouldn't even be a concern unless you are exceedingly paranoid. This is about buying a superseded lens either new or used.


----------



## Maiaibing (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



BeenThere said:



> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > gcrimmins said:
> ...



Agree. Canon has discontinued repairs of big whites even just a few years after they stopped production. Their policy is clear enough. They will repair until parts run out...


----------



## djack41 (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

New white paint and higher price!


----------



## scyrene (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Dfunk99 said:


> Not interested in ANY Big lenses - needed are: 20mm 2.8 or 20mm f2.0; 28mm 1.8 IS, a New 50mm 1.4, 100mmf2.0IS & a 24-120L IS - Nikon has one of those.



Why are you commenting on this thread?


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



YuengLinger said:


> Speaking for myself, I'm hoping I'm wrong, that EF will be the standard for years. But a pro FF body might be as good a justification as any to go with the next generation.



I think a pro body is a far smaller market than the EF picture as a whole. Far smaller. Change everything for one body? Nawwww. But we'll see soon enough.


----------



## tron (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Trigger said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > I cannot see how the version II white super teles could be discontinued. I mean they can of course but it will not look very ethical on Canon.
> ...


If the new versions are not really NEW design like the 70-200 ones then they make new versions as an excuse to stop supporting the current ones. This is HUGE Ethics issue. Now the 70-200 2.8L IS II is a new design of version I. Version III isn't. Hope you can see that!


----------



## Etienne (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



CanonFanBoy said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking for myself, I'm hoping I'm wrong, that EF will be the standard for years. But a pro FF body might be as good a justification as any to go with the next generation.
> ...



Mirrorless is the future. Canon is going to redesign and optimize the mount for the new format, just like they did when they introduced EF in the first place. There's no way that they will limit their future by committing mirrorless to an old mount.
For sure they will release an excellent adapter, and for sure they will continue to produce excellent DSLRs with EF mounts for quite a while. But Canon's past behavior shows that they will abandon one phase of their product line in favor of a superior future.
AND they will sell MORE lenses as a result of a new mount, not fewer. It's a win win, for Canon and their customers. Don't want to buy new mirrorless optimized lenses ... use the adapter or buy another DSLR.


----------



## nchoh (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



tapanit said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > ... the assumption that when Canon goes mirrorless that they will both discontinue (eventually) mirrored cameras and that the new mount will be a much shorter distance... This assumption may not be correct.
> ...



Respectfully, you frame it as a problem, which is the problem.

What I see is Canon is looking to segment the market as it has always done, in order to maximize profit. I think you are pretty close to what will eventually happen.

EF-M is targeted for the masses. Small bodies with small lenses. I think they will max out the telephoto lens for the M line at the 55-250 (as per the EF-s).

EF-X will target the FF enthusiast and professional market. I am guessing that they are making a sensor slightly larger than 35mm. They will also make a range of sensors some without the DPAF and no AA-filter... different sensors to target different markets.

The EF-S line will be deprecated as soon as they can be economically.

The EF line will survive until the cine line goes away.

They will make a hybrid camera that will take the EF and EF-X mount until there are enough EF-X lenses out there to justify a EF-X only line.

Just what I think.


----------



## unfocused (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



tron said:


> Trigger said:
> 
> 
> > tron said:
> ...



It's not the case of an "excuse." Like most manufacturers, Canon stops servicing discontinued products once they run out of parts to perform that service. What no one here knows is whether or not the 70-200 III is simply a refresh with new lens coatings and body paint. If that's the case, it's likely that Canon would continue to provide service for the II version for many years if (and that is an important "if") the parts are interchangeable.

Since the new big whites haven't even been released yet, we don't know how different they will be from the existing versions. So speculating about how long they will service the current versions is way premature.


----------



## nchoh (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



CanonFanBoy said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking for myself, I'm hoping I'm wrong, that EF will be the standard for years. But a pro FF body might be as good a justification as any to go with the next generation.
> ...



Sony recently came out with some big glass for sport photography. Together with their A7 gets about 20 fps in focus. Canon's and Nikon's best gig can only deliver 10 fps focused. Even if they don't sell alot of lenses for those purposes, it's still a huge market and the only way to keep Sony off that market is to introduce a FF camera.


----------



## tron (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



unfocused said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > Trigger said:
> ...


Copying from TDP...

https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EF-70-200mm-f-2.8L-IS-III-USM-Lens.aspx

What are the Differences Between the Canon 70-200mm f/2.8L IS III Lens and the Canon 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II Lens?

The III has ASC (Air Sphere Coating) in addition to Super Spectra Coating, designed to reduce flare and ghosting.
The III has fluorine coating on the front and rear lens elements, keeping them cleaner and making them much easier to clean.
The III has Canon's newer, whiter paint color, matching the other recently-introduced telephoto lenses.
The III has minor typographical changes including the words "Image Stabilizer" and "Ultrasonic" printed below the focal length range and next to the focus distance window. The gold "Image Stabilizer" has been removed from the mount area.

I know, at this point you are thinking that I'm missing many items from this list, but ... sorry, that's all that has been promised. The optical design is the same. The IS system is the same. The overall lens design is the same.


----------



## NancyP (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

I think that there will be a good market for DSLRs for a while. I don't think that every new photographer is going to go immediately to high end mirrorless. 
The obvious supertele in need of revision is the 800 f/5.6L


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Etienne said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > YuengLinger said:
> ...



Wasn't EF designed to allow for auto-focus? Um... tell me how an EF mount holds Canon back in the mirrorless race? Please? What is it about an EF mount that is incompatible with Canon mirrorless (yet to be announced) cameras?

That's right. Sorry. I forgot that all mirrorless cameras have to be designed like a Sony... because it saves lots of room in the bag. : Not.


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 18, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



unfocused said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > Trigger said:
> ...



I don't see it as an ethical issue either. You bought the lens, Warranty is over. Eventually Canon decides it is time to move on. You didn't purchase a lifetime service guarantee for that lens and one wasn't offered.


----------



## Etienne (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



CanonFanBoy said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > CanonFanBoy said:
> ...




Your entire argument for Canon retaining the EF mount in a mirrorless body revolves around your personal desire to avoid buying new lenses. 
Of course the EF was designed to optimize AF, but to spell it out for you, the lack of a mirror box also changes the engineering parameters for the lenses since they can be brought much closer to the sensor.
It's never been an issue that the EF mount is incompatible, it's just not optimal. The EF mount was designed to accommodate a mirror box. Clearly wide angle lenses, and probably normal lenses, can be made smaller and probably cheaper in a mirrorless optimized format. Sony has demonstrated so.
Your wishful thinking will, thankfully, be totally ignored by a company seeking to compete, or dominate, the emerging mirrorless camera market. Sorry, but you have absolutely no argument to support your dream. :


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Etienne said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



1. No, my argument (Not really an argument, but a rational) has nothing to do with my personal desires concerning new lenses. So there's that. I own 41 lenses already. I'm pretty much set. I also own a mirrorless camera and that is the root of my rational. The form factor presently sucks. Bad. Full frame or M43, it sucks.

2. Show me proof that lenses are less expensive to manufacture because they will be closer to the sensor. Some of Sony's lens prices are in the stratosphere compared to present Canon L glass. So there's that one. Saying the lenses will be less expensive is a purely manufactured fantasy on your part. Maybe Sony has something for less, I don't know... but since you brought it up and said it, prove that they cost less because they were built for mirrorless. Where did you get that idea from? A blogger? Vlogger?

3. EF wasn't designed to "optimise" the then current mount for auto-focus. There was no auto-focus. Canon had a reason to change the mount. While Canon may change the mount for mirrorless you cannot show me a reason why Canon must do so for mirrorless unless you, like many others, believe that a new mirrorless camera has to be built like a Sony.

4. My wishful thinking? I have none of that. I won't be going mirrorless so don't have a horse in this race. I put about 2,500 clicks a year on my 5D Mark III and don't shoot video at all. I've have had it for nearly 3 years. It will probably go another 10 years or more. Between now and then I will buy another EF mount DSLR to put away... so I'm probably set for life. There is absolutely nothing mirrorless can offer me above what I already have. If it could, then switching would not be a problem. Money is just money... not near as fun as what one can do with it.

5. Maybe the space saved by eliminating the mirrorbox will be used for heat sinks for really good 4k video instead of an excuse to make an ergonomic nightmare of a camera. A bigger battery would be better too. Mirrorless eats battery power up.

So my thoughts are based upon practicality in the current market atmosphere. EF ain't going away and there is absolutely no reason for it to go away. Mirrorless doesn't have to look like a skinny and awkward to hold Sony. It also doesn't have to leak water or overheat.


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Etienne said:


> Your entire argument for Canon retaining the EF mount in a mirrorless body revolves around your personal desire to avoid buying new lenses.
> Of course the EF was designed to optimize AF, but to spell it out for you, the lack of a mirror box also changes the engineering parameters for the lenses since they can be brought much closer to the sensor.
> It's never been an issue that the EF mount is incompatible, it's just not optimal. The EF mount was designed to accommodate a mirror box. Clearly wide angle lenses, and probably normal lenses, can be made smaller and probably cheaper in a mirrorless optimized format. Sony has demonstrated so.
> Your wishful thinking will, thankfully, be totally ignored by a company seeking to compete, or dominate, the emerging mirrorless camera market. Sorry, but you have absolutely no argument to support your dream. :


A bit of history here...

The EF mount (EF stands for Electro Focus) came out in 1987. The primary design feature of the mount was that all communication to and from the lens be done through serial data streams (thus allowing auto-focus) and that there be no mechanical couplings such as levers... It replaced the FD mount, which had levers and a couple of dedicated pins. FD mount was not conducive to automatic focusing. Canon had realized that it was a dead end, and eventually Nikon also realized that mechanical linkages were passe….

Fast forward to today, where the EF mount is still in primary use.... The mount still works well, but as computing power and data communication speeds have increased, the slow communications between lens and body have started to limit system performance. Canon has patented a new version of this mount which will allow for the negotiation between camera and lens of higher data rates. How this works is you turn on the camera, it sends a query (using the slow EF link speed) to the lens asking what the max supported lens link speed is. If there is no answer (legacy EF glass), then it continues at the EF link speed. If it responds by saying it supports a faster speed, then both switch to that faster speed. We expect to see this very soon, be it on new EF bodies, or if it is a new mount... Canon has stated that there will be an "elegant" solution with a new mirrorless mount, and the odds are exceptionally high that this will be part of it....


As far as mount size goes, you can make the flange shorter, but as a result the lens will have to bend light from regular and telephoto lenses more, and the result will be more chromatic aberration and there will be more vignetting as a result of the light hitting the sensor at a greater angle. For wide angle lenses, you are better off as there will be less vignetting and less chromatic aberrations.... a classic example of trade-offs... There is no A is better than B, they both have their strengths and their weaknesses. You can not say that the current EF mount is not optimal without acknowledging that whatever any possible new mirrorless mount is, that it will also not be optimal. You can not cherry pick your conditions.

There are very good reasons to keep the existing EF mount, just as there are also very good reasons to create a new mount. A lot of people argue that size is the over-riding criteria, yet when you include fast or long lenses into the system, the system savings are negligible. If you want a small system that is still of good quality, Canon should look at releasing some F5.6 or F6.3 L glass in whatever mount they pick.... That's where the real size savings will come from.


----------



## Etienne (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Don Haines said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > Your entire argument for Canon retaining the EF mount in a mirrorless body revolves around your personal desire to avoid buying new lenses.
> ...



From you own argument, you CAN have the best of both worlds with a new mount. You can use native mirrorless mount lenses for focal lengths less than 50mm, and use EF lenses with an adapter for telephoto lenses thus minimizing the bending you suggest is necessary.
In fact, Canon could choose to design longer focal length lenses by just adding extra space to the existing EF lens design and the new mount, therefor there is NO disadvantage to the shorter flange distance. ALL advantages point to a new mount with a shorter flange distance.


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Etienne said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...




and where are the size savings? We need to think system, not components.....

I'm not suggesting that there will not be a mirrorless mount, what I am suggesting is that if there is a new tiny mount, that Canon is not going to abandon EF and redo all their lenses for that new mount because the overall reduction in size of the SYSTEM will be negligible.... If they create a tiny mount, then they will create some new (and slow) L lenses to give you a reduction in SYSTEM size....


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Don Haines said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



Isn't nice to get someone questioning their religion. ;D 

Only native for less than 50mm? Wow. Why do we need a new mount? Because we shoot more wide angle than anything else? Wow.

Go ahead and build a new mount Canon. Don't even worry about native lenses longer than 40mm. An adapter will work for all of it. 50mm or less? Yeah, well, what you have already will work with the adapter too. No thanks. Now, where did I put that adapter?

Don, point taken on the electronics update.


----------



## Etienne (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



CanonFanBoy said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



We'll just have to wait and see what the engineers do. Sonys system with wide and normal lenses are smaller and lighter ... if facts are a religion, then I'm religious.

Anyway, the religious zeolots on this forum are the ones who argue that Canon is always right and always the best. Closely followed by the act of faith in believing that the EF mount will reign forever, and that the engineers will not be able to take advantage of a short flange mount. Whatever helps you sleep at night boys.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



nchoh said:


> Sony recently came out with some big glass for sport photography. Together with their A7 gets about 20 fps in focus. Canon's and Nikon's best gig can only deliver 10 fps focused.



I guess you mean the a9. 20 fps with some lenses, 15 fps with others. The 1D X II does 14 fps. But hey, they're just numbers, right? Sure, unless your numbers are wrong.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neuroanatomist said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > What sort of upgrades should we expect from new super telephoto lenses? I think a big one will be weight reduction,
> ...



True, but in the case of the 300 the body is a lot smaller to start with, the weight savings were always going to be proportionately a lot less. Also for the 500 we went from 3.8kg to 3.2kg that is clearly a lot more than 10% in fact it's about 19%. So these lenses weights fell by less but that was expected. I highly doubt Canon can get near Sony's weight for the 400 f/2.8 with their own 400 and 600 (almost same weight). They alluded to the fact they had a new lighter magnesium alloy for the mk III when news first broke about mk III's coming in time for 2020 Olympics, but will it be enough? I can only assume Sony managed such weight reduction by also making the lens body a bit thinner without affecting rigidity and also use of a lot of Fluorite lens elements. Also Sony moved the centre of mass way back in the lens making it balance a lot beter than the Canikon 400's and has 50% lower rotational inertia. Are these things Canon would have considered? IMO we might see 10% weight reductions, but not Sony's 24% effort.


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



CanonFanBoy said:


> Isn't nice to get someone questioning their religion. ;D
> 
> Only native for less than 50mm? Wow. Why do we need a new mount? Because we shoot more wide angle than anything else? Wow.
> 
> ...




My point is that everything has advantages and has disadvantages. It's the people who present small size bodies as the ultimate solution that get me going.... Yes, you can make bodies smaller, but without smaller (slower) lenses, where is the size gain? What percentage of people are going to give up ergonomics for INTERMITTENT size.... I'm not going to say small size, because no FF mirrorless camera/lenses will ever approach the size of the M series... If size is so important, why not go all the way to M.... but if quality is so important, why not go all the way to EF and balanced bodies with decent controls?

Yes, there is a middle ground, but how many are going to occupy it? We don't know and can only guess... 


and as far as new mounts go: Some people say that Canon abandoned FD mount users when the EF mount came out, but the FD mount DID NOT SUPPORT DIGITAL CAMERAS!!!!! The EF mount was digital, and it brought AF systems into play and later allowed IS to be developed and because you could now ID a specific lens, we could bring lens profiles, corrections, and AFMA into the mix. Abandoning EF mount for a new mount brings ZERO new capabilities to the system and both runs the risk of alienating existing users, plus removes much of the incentive for existing users to stay in the Canon system because now rather than using thier existing glass, they would have to get new glass and bodies.... and if that is the case, why not jump ship? The cost is the same!


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Don Haines said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't nice to get someone questioning their religion. ;D
> ...



Of course, you are absolutely correct.


----------



## Durf (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Don Haines said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't nice to get someone questioning their religion. ;D
> ...



Perhaps why Canon has been updating most of their most famous and used EF Lenses over the last few years or so.....They're making sure all there top shelf L lenses will work like a charm on their new FF mirrorless cameras first before tossing mirrorless camera bodies on to the public with no good lenses for them like some other companies do/did....


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Etienne said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



So now we've gone from smaller, lighter, and less expensive because they are for mirrorless to just smaller and lighter. They are also mostly slower and the IQ isn't as good as Canon's. Those are the facts.

I've never seen anyone say that Canon is always right or always the best. I have, though, run across inquisitors who accuse people of saying such things. Nobody has said that EF will reign forever, though no reason why not at this point.

Nobody has disparaged Canon engineers either... wait, except for the Canon must conform to Sony crowd.

It never fails that there are people in the crowd that think Canon should aspire to be just like Sony. Just buy a Sony. :

Canon will never make a deck of cards FF camera like that. Never.

And again, since you left it out of the quote, native only for less than 50mm lenses? Wow. How much money and weight does that save? Why a new mount?


----------



## Talys (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neuroanatomist said:


> nchoh said:
> 
> 
> > Sony recently came out with some big glass for sport photography. Together with their A7 gets about 20 fps in focus. Canon's and Nikon's best gig can only deliver 10 fps focused.
> ...



Yeah, that... Except when you have a big lens on the 1DXII and a 1.4x or 2x extender on it, in a real life venue that matters, like, say, an Olympic figure skating rink, the 1DXII will give you 14 in-focus frames every second, while the a9 will look like it's having a seizure trying to focus on something. Though yes, you can force the shutter to whir 20 times every second with a massive buffer to give you 256GB of blurry photos 

In trying out a 1DX2, what I was really most impressed with was its AF speed in imperfect conditions. It was truly amazing (keeping in mind that at the time my best camera was a 70D).


----------



## M_S (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

My two cents for the mount: 
I yet have to see an advantage for a shorter flange distance. Makes lenses more complicated (according to Zeiss) and ony WA lenses benefit. Lot's of other more used focal length don't see an improvement in size reduction. Weight reductions come mainly from using other materials.
If Canon would be clever, they would use the same dimensions and locking mechanism as the current EF mount. Electronic contacts would be in the same position. New optimized mirrorless lenses could have some extra pins, - capable of high speed data, new protocols etc. - enabling some other electronic stuff they want to put in the lens. These pins would have no effect on FF DSLRs, as the corresponding contacts would be missing on the camera body, and would enable the full potential on mirrorless, where these contacts are available.


----------



## RGF (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

Will Canon put a drop in extender into their III super teles? This would allow them to raise their price point and give a real incentive for all current owners to upgrade.

Then a year from how introduce DO version of all the lenses w/o drop in extenders. Five years later, add the drop in extender to the DO versions (or perhaps make the drop in extender in 2 parts - 1.2, 1.4 so combined you get 1.7).

Lots of upgrades in our futures


----------



## danimon (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

i think it could be 300 and 600, although i'm pretty sure the rest will follow sooner rather than later.. i can see a lot of room for improvement in image quality and technology whether it's about ultra high resolution, action stopper, or video shooter dslr .

but if i gonna make a 10k+ purchase, i would rather go with big zoom lens like 200-400 f4, and i would really love to pay more for a more compact and lighter lens.

having 600 f4 is always nice , but its something like 400-800 f5,6 that going to save you most of the time. mark my words  ;D


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Talys said:


> Yeah, that... Except when you have a big lens on the 1DXII and a 1.4x or 2x extender on it, in a real life venue that matters, like, say, an Olympic figure skating rink, the 1DXII will give you 14 in-focus frames every second, while the a9 will look like it's having a seizure trying to focus on something. Though yes, you can force the shutter to whir 20 times every second with a massive buffer to give you 256GB of blurry photos
> 
> In trying out a 1DX2, what I was really most impressed with was its AF speed in imperfect conditions. It was truly amazing (keeping in mind that at the time my best camera was a 70D).



So you've never actually used the A9 because if you did you wouldn't talk such crap. Owning a D500, A9 and 1DX and 5D4 knowing superb bird photographers that own 1DXII, D500/D850 and A9, the A9 is clearly the best AFing camera on the market, then the D500/D5/D850, then 1DXII, with 1DX and 5D4 pretty similar. The D500 and A9 can easily get shots that Canon has always struggled with. I don't run my A9 at 20fps, I use 10fps,a and the lock-on speed is insane and it sticks like shit to a blanket. I didn't think it could get better than the D500 but Sony has done a great job. I sold my 1DX after a few weeks of owning the A9.


----------



## tron (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



danimon said:


> i think it could be 300 and 600, although i'm pretty sure the rest will follow sooner rather than later.. i can see a lot of room for improvement in image quality and technology whether it's about ultra high resolution, action stopper, or video shooter dslr .
> 
> but if i gonna make a 10k+ purchase, i would rather go with big zoom lens like 200-400 f4, and i would really love to pay more for a more compact and lighter lens.
> 
> having 600 f4 is always nice , but its something like 400-800 f5,6 that going to save you most of the time. mark my words  ;D


Lot of improvement for the 300 or for any other super tele? Sorry I do not buy it. Do you have it and/or have you seen 300mm 2.8L IS II reviews on TDP, DxO on its performance with 5DsR ?


----------



## Talys (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Mr Majestyk said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, that... Except when you have a big lens on the 1DXII and a 1.4x or 2x extender on it, in a real life venue that matters, like, say, an Olympic figure skating rink, the 1DXII will give you 14 in-focus frames every second, while the a9 will look like it's having a seizure trying to focus on something. Though yes, you can force the shutter to whir 20 times every second with a massive buffer to give you 256GB of blurry photos
> ...



I have used both the A9 and an A7R3 extensively using the Sony 100-400 and 70-200 with Sony 1.4x and 2x extenders, and with a sigma 150-600 with and without the Sigma and Sony 1.4x extenders. There is no way that the raw AF speed, especially with extenders, is anywhere near comparable with an 1DX2. I mean, it isn't even in the same universe. Anyone who thinks otherwise has never used a 1DX2 with a big lens with extenders for even 10 seconds.

FFS, with extenders,the 1DX2 is much faster than a 5D4 when there is less available light (whether it's just darker or when aperture is smaller). And the 5D4 is warp speed faster than either an a9 or a7R3, when light is not ideal. Switch it to AF-S, and compare that to single shot on a Rebel, and A9 or A7R3 fail miserably, hunting on even the simplest autofocus tasks, as it switches to contrast detect AF (which wouldn't be an issue, except that some AF features only work in AF-S). There are also some weird AF issues, where horizontal lines focus easily, but low contrast vertical lines cause hunting.

When it comes to continuous AF, for example for video, DPAF makes you look like a pro, while Sony hybrid AF hunts all around fifteen ways to Sunday.

I do agree that Sony's subject tracking is superior. But this is not a feature that I care about at all -- I really just care about getting fast, accurate AF, mostly in the center point.

There must be lots of sports photographers that see it your way, because, during the World Cup the sidelines were just full of A9's, right?


----------



## Durf (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Talys said:


> Mr Majestyk said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...



With what you just explained here is exactly why I think Canon just may hit a home run with their FF mirrorless cameras coming soon. It really wouldn't take much for them to meet or exceed what Sony is offering....and to have a HUGE line of EF lenses that most regular Canon shooters already own??? hell, it's a no brainer in my opinion.

Of course there will always be haters that will never be happy with what Canon does, but I do think Canon will shift the market a bit real soon and Sony will notice clearly.

...and I have no dog in the fight for my opinion on this matter as I could care a less what Canon does when it comes to mirrorless, I'm sticking to with what I currently own for the foreseeable future, which is my mirrored DSLR's.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

only a new mount allows Canon to utilize all advantages that removal of mirrorbox beings to lens design and offer imaging gear for every use, desire and preference. thats why they will do it, just like Nikon will do it (Z-mount). For Canon it is much easier than for Nikon. thanks to Canon's bold move in 1987 to EF. all EF glass owned by customers will be compatibility with a a simple little extension tube "adapter". 

new mount will enable Canon to offer compact FF-sensored cameras with compact lenses in most frequently used focal length range and large cameras for those who prefer it large. best of all worlds for Canon and customers. plus lots of new lenses to be sold. perfect!


----------



## neonlight (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

FF mirrorless surely would use EF mount. NO adapter, just a bigger body.
Keep smaller bodies for EFM.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neonlight said:


> FF mirrorless surely would use EF mount. NO adapter, just a bigger body.
> Keep smaller bodies for EFM.



lol. i fully expect canon FF MILCs will all come with new mount, not EF. 
irrespective of lens mount EF lenses will be "legacy" the day Canon FF MILC comes out and be sibject to the same limitations as in live view mode on a (DP-AF) DSLR.


----------



## tron (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

New Big White teles that could come and bring money to Canon:

600mm f/4 DO IS
150(or 200) - 600mm L Zoom lens
500mm f/5.6 DO IS


----------



## Trigger (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

Am I correct in the impression I have that a DO 500 or 600 will (inherently) be inferior in the IQ/bokeh department than the 500/600 II lenses we have now, and if so, am I correct in hoping that an upcoming 500/600 III is _not_ a DO?


----------



## applecider (Jul 19, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Trigger said:


> Am I correct in the impression I have that a DO 500 or 600 will (inherently) be inferior in the IQ/bokeh department than the 500/600 II lenses we have now, and if so, am I correct in hoping that an upcoming 500/600 III is _not_ a DO?



Trigger welcome to CR 

The first iteration of the 400 DO had issues with bokeh, the ii seems much better and thus future lenses should be no worse and probably better. One site and impressive user here http://arihazeghiphotography.com/blog/one-year-with-ef-400-do-is-ii/. I see no bokeh issues there, and really no issues with even the 2x extender as far as image quality is concerned.

So I would suggest that your hypothesis that bokeh with DO is inherently worse is false.


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 20, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



applecider said:


> Trigger said:
> 
> 
> > Am I correct in the impression I have that a DO 500 or 600 will (inherently) be inferior in the IQ/bokeh department than the 500/600 II lenses we have now, and if so, am I correct in hoping that an upcoming 500/600 III is _not_ a DO?
> ...



From what I have been told, DO lenses are much harder to design than regular lenses, but as the 400DO proves, they can be bone very well. I would expect a 600DO to be better than a 400DO, as they have now had even more experience.....


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Jul 20, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Talys said:


> There must be lots of sports photographers that see it your way, because, during the World Cup the sidelines were just full of A9's, right?



Clever, you know that has just to do with lack of glass and not the cameras AF, and yes that's Sony's own moronic oversight not have had the 400 f/2.8 ready when the A9 was announced, but at least they've rectified that now and also delivered another home run. When the A9II hits before the Olympics you'll see a seismic shift in the mix. Sony only hass to improve ergonomics and ruggedness and it will take a lot of the pro market. Inertia is very strong with working pros, they won't just change for the sake of it. Not a single Canon user I've known that originally said the A9 was a toy and has now used one for more than a few minutes has not come away amazed by the AF. No it's not perfect but it's still better than the 1DXII which can't even match the D5 in some cases.


----------



## unfocused (Jul 20, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Mr Majestyk said:


> ...When the A9II hits before the Olympics you'll see a seismic shift in the mix...



Let's everyone bookmark this statement and then see which comes first, Mr. Majestyk's prediction or Harry Film's magic codex.


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 20, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Mr Majestyk said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > There must be lots of sports photographers that see it your way, because, during the World Cup the sidelines were just full of A9's, right?
> ...



Because pro photographers do not shoot with a sensor, they shoot with a system..... and at the World Cup, CPS was there to support Canon shooters..... and they had a whole room full of the best lenses for those pros to borrow, and any equipment problems could be swapped out on the spot! Plus, the system that they were using has great ergonomics and the easy controls on the cameras to allow the pros to change settings without taking their eyes off of the action.... To give all that up for a Sony would be madness!

And tethering.....

Don’t forget tethering......

It’s great to have an Ethernet jack on the camera.....

While the action is happening, those ”poor people who had to suffer through using a 1DX2” were tethered to the internet. As they took pictures, they were downloaded to “the office” where an editor would process them and post them.... their workflow was so good that they were published before the event finished!


----------



## takesome1 (Jul 20, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Mr Majestyk said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



Since all of the lenses were updated at about the same time it would stand to reason that the updated components that gave the 600mm II its weight were also incorporated in to the new 500mm II one would wonder where the weight loss of a version III would come from.


----------



## neonlight (Jul 20, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

We've heard little since Canon demo'd the 600DO. Can't believe they'd introduce a 600III if they were about to bring out a DO. Maybe the new whites will be 500DO, 600DO.. with the green ring painted red?
Or it's just a "refresh" of some others.


----------



## Trigger (Jul 20, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

In any event, this has reminded me of a feeling that I had fully forgotten, that of a kid waiting for Christmas.


----------



## neonlight (Jul 20, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

... so I suspect refreshes of 300 f/2.8, 400 f/2.8 and the 500, 600DO next year.


----------



## jolyonralph (Jul 20, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



fullstop said:


> neonlight said:
> 
> 
> > FF mirrorless surely would use EF mount. NO adapter, just a bigger body.
> ...



Exactly. Some EF lenses really don't work so well with Live View/DPAF. Some are fine, but others hunt like crazy.

A new mount for mirrorless is essential for Canon to ensure that all native mount lenses are fully optimised for the requirements of DPAF (and whatever comes after DPAF) focusing. 

Maybe Canon will produce an adaptor similar to the Sony LA-EA4 with a pelicle mirror for legacy EF glass to focus using traditional focus methods. This may make sense in order to allow those with the long white lenses to use the new cameras to the max.

But mirrorless camera with native EF mount, and no pelicle mirror? I can't see that happening.


----------



## applecider (Jul 21, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

The guy next to me at the sushi bar was drinking sake and at the end of his meal got a fortune cookie ( Chinese Japanese Sushi) and inside the cookie was a piece of paper from canon japan in Japanese which the other guy next to me could read.....

It said that the updates to the big whites were going to have native Sony mounts. Turns out that the girl friend of the Japanese speaker has a third cousin who works in canon corporate and she thinks that canon has decided that Sony bodies are the best and canon will now move toward only making lenses for Sony.

BTW the fortune cookie fortune was “old ways die hard try something new”.


----------



## ethanz (Jul 21, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



applecider said:


> The guy next to me at the sushi bar was drinking sake and at the end of his meal got a fortune cookie ( Chinese Japanese Sushi) and inside the cookie was a piece of paper from canon japan in Japanese which the other guy next to me could read.....
> 
> It said that the updates to the big whites were going to have native Sony mounts. Turns out that the girl friend of the Japanese speaker has a third cousin who works in canon corporate and she thinks that canon has decided that Sony bodies are the best and canon will now move toward only making lenses for Sony.
> 
> BTW the fortune cookie fortune was “old ways die hard try something new”.



The question actually is, how much sake did _you_ have? ;D

Good story though.


----------



## Talys (Jul 21, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



jolyonralph said:


> Exactly. Some EF lenses really don't work so well with Live View/DPAF. Some are fine, but others hunt like crazy.



Nearly all of the modern EF L lenses work flawlessly with live view DPAF; certainly, all of the most popular primes and f/4 and f/2.8 L zooms. Some of the of the older EF's don't work so great, but some of they also don't work as well using the dedicated PDAF sensor.


----------



## zim (Jul 21, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Don Haines said:


> Mr Majestyk said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...



whilst watching the photographers during the final presentation one word was going through my mind.... weatherproofing!


----------



## neonlight (Jul 21, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



> But mirrorless camera with native EF mount, and no pelicle mirror? I can't see that happening.


You may be right, but it seems to me that the quickest way forward for Canon would be to introduce a FF mirrorless with native EF mount. But maybe they could have done that already, though it seems Canon were slow to realise the impact of mirrorless?
Modern EVF's should be fast enough to keep track that no mirror (not even a pellicle) is needed.


----------



## neonlight (Jul 21, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

...and dont forget, upgrades may well include better processing power in the lenses. Perhaps there is something to the rumor that says Canon are getting all their EF lenses ready for FF mirrorless...(the old ones will work, of course, but slower?)


----------



## tron (Jul 21, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neonlight said:


> ...and dont forget, upgrades may well include better processing power in the lenses. Perhaps there is something to the rumor that says Canon are getting all their EF lenses ready for FF mirrorless...(the old ones will work, of course, but slower?)


Yes because everyone wants to drive a 600mm f/4L IS I,II,III,whatever lens with a small mirrorless camera ;D


----------



## takesome1 (Jul 21, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



applecider said:


> The guy next to me at the sushi bar was drinking sake and at the end of his meal got a fortune cookie ( Chinese Japanese Sushi) and inside the cookie was a piece of paper from canon japan in Japanese which the other guy next to me could read.....
> 
> It said that the updates to the big whites were going to have native Sony mounts. Turns out that the girl friend of the Japanese speaker has a third cousin who works in canon corporate and she thinks that canon has decided that Sony bodies are the best and canon will now move toward only making lenses for Sony.
> 
> BTW the fortune cookie fortune was “old ways die hard try something new”.



So let me get this straight, you think a fortune cookie and knowing someone with a third cousin can predict the way this is going?

I am not buying any of this.

Any word on which lenses they are going to release though?


----------



## scyrene (Jul 21, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



CanonFanBoy said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > tron said:
> ...



Also, although it depends where you live and may not be good enough for everyone, discontinued lenses can be repaired by third parties, cannibalising broken lenses for parts, many years after Canon stops covering them.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 21, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Etienne said:


> Sonys system with wide and normal lenses are smaller and lighter



Precisely what elevance does this have to a thread about two new supertelephoto lenses?


----------



## scyrene (Jul 21, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



RGF said:


> Will Canon put a drop in extender into their III super teles? This would allow them to raise their price point and give a real incentive for all current owners to upgrade.
> 
> Then a year from how introduce DO version of all the lenses w/o drop in extenders. Five years later, add the drop in extender to the DO versions (or perhaps make the drop in extender in 2 parts - 1.2, 1.4 so combined you get 1.7).
> 
> Lots of upgrades in our futures



I'm not sure there are any exact precedents, but my inclination is to think that if they call it a mark III, they won't be adding anything like a built-in extender, that would be more likely named as a new lens ('EF Xmm 1.4x Extender' or similar).



Trigger said:


> Am I correct in the impression I have that a DO 500 or 600 will (inherently) be inferior in the IQ/bokeh department than the 500/600 II lenses we have now, and if so, am I correct in hoping that an upcoming 500/600 III is _not_ a DO?



Again, similar to what I say above, if it's a DO then it's not a mark III. If it's a mark III, it won't be DO.


----------



## jolyonralph (Jul 21, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Talys said:


> Nearly all of the modern EF L lenses work flawlessly with live view DPAF; certainly, all of the most popular primes and f/4 and f/2.8 L zooms. Some of the of the older EF's don't work so great, but some of they also don't work as well using the dedicated PDAF sensor.



It's the *nearly all* that is the problem. Potentially Canon could get away with it by immediately withdrawing from sale/upgrading all of the older lenses that don't work so well with DPAF - and there's quite a few that would be affected. 

Otherwise Canon have the nightmare of trying to sell a new camera which isn't totally compatible with all the lenses for that mount currently on sale.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 21, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



jolyonralph said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > Nearly all of the modern EF L lenses work flawlessly with live view DPAF; certainly, all of the most popular primes and f/4 and f/2.8 L zooms. Some of the of the older EF's don't work so great, but some of they also don't work as well using the dedicated PDAF sensor.
> ...



Can someone indicate which specific EF L lenses don't 'work flawlessly with live view DPAF' and how their performance is lacking?


----------



## fullstop (Jul 21, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

they work within the limitations in live view mode. AF is not as fast as in mirrorslapping mode. AF is not silent, as opposed to STM or Nano-USM lenses. Luckily only an issue for video capture, not for stills. 

AF on new native EF-X lenses will perform better on mirrorless Canon cameras than legacy EF shards will. No matter whether L or not.


----------



## zim (Jul 21, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



fullstop said:


> AF on new native EF-X lenses will perform better on mirrorless Canon cameras than legacy EF shards will. No matter whether L or not.



why?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 22, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

If anyone would care to respond with _factual_ information, please do.


----------



## ethanz (Jul 22, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neuroanatomist said:


> If anyone would care to respond with _factual_ information, please do.



You mean you haven't been given access to all the details on EF-X lenses? I'll email you the files.


----------



## zim (Jul 22, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



ethanz said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > If anyone would care to respond with _factual_ information, please do.
> ...



that'll be the X-Files ;D


----------



## tron (Jul 22, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

*@unfocused*: I agree that speculation about servicing the current versions is way premature but then this rumors site mentioned the version III lenses which is itself speculation (although one with some sources). TDP site reviews the new 70-200 2.8L IS III and mentioned the very few differences. The only optical one is the coating. So it would be unethical to stop servicing the version II.

*@Canonfanboy*: Guarantee meens free repair. I never mentioned it/requested it. Serviceability is different than Guarantee. So if a really new lens appears then YES they can proceed with this scheme as they used to. And kudos to them for improving the products. However, if they keep the same optical formula and merely introduce cosmetic changes then sorry it is unethical. If they CANNOT/WILLNOT yet really improve the lenses and practically but a nice III instead of a II then sorry but it is unethical to discontinue the version II. 

*@scyrene*: That's a good idea (cannibalising broken lenses for parts) but it should have to be done so for really old lenses. The version II are not that old. Just my opinion.

*@all*: 

1. I too cannot see how a thread about 2 new teles gets turned to Sony.
2. Am I the only one who thinks that the following 2 teles would benefit Canon more?
a. 600mm f/4 DO IS (and/or maybe a smaller 500MM DO IS)
b. 150(or 200) - 600mm(or 500 but preferrably 600) L IS

OK not expert on market and Canon but I would try to get these two in the long run without getting rid of my existing whites. I think that they would somehow complete the series and not antagonize the current ones. YMMV.


----------



## danski0224 (Jul 22, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

As far as clickbait goes , it would be a certainty that Canon would update the bread and butter 400 f/2.8 and 600 f/4 lenses to function properly with whatever mirrorless camera is coming out.

I would assume that there are updates to the lens AF motors, possibly the aperture motor to allow more FPS, internal electronics and communications protocols.

And of course, it is an easy excuse to obsolete upper 4 figure and 5 figure lenses so you have to buy new ones...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 22, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



danski0224 said:


> As far as clickbait goes , it would be a certainty that Canon would update the bread and butter 400 f/2.8 and 600 f/4 lenses to function properly with whatever mirrorless camera is coming out.
> 
> I would assume that there are updates to the lens AF motors, possibly the aperture motor to allow more FPS, internal electronics and communications protocols.
> 
> And of course, it is an easy excuse to obsolete upper 4 figure and 5 figure lenses so you have to buy new ones...



Why do you think the current versions won't function properly with whatever mirrorless camera is coming out? My 600/4 II functions properly with my M6...


----------



## tron (Jul 22, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neuroanatomist said:


> danski0224 said:
> 
> 
> > As far as clickbait goes , it would be a certainty that Canon would update the bread and butter 400 f/2.8 and 600 f/4 lenses to function properly with whatever mirrorless camera is coming out.
> ...


+1 Finally some facts. In addition 1DxII fps are more than enough and all lenses cope perfectly with these. Add the fact that the version II tele lenses are firmware upgradeable (although this must be done by Canon most probably) and we have a long term telephoto solution.


----------



## danski0224 (Jul 22, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neuroanatomist said:


> Why do you think the current versions won't function properly with whatever mirrorless camera is coming out? My 600/4 II functions properly with my M6...



I'm sure that there are improvements to be made.

A parallel would be the changes in Sigma lenses from the "non- Art" to the current Art series lenses. While not Canon, something has changed inside the lenses because the "old" style has erratic or no focus when used with the Sigma sdQ mirrorless camera (even the USM motor lenses). Those "old" style lenses work just fine with the Sigma DSLR cameras.

It must have something to do with the focus motor precision and type of communication. Obviously, Sigma has reverse-engineered the Canon AF process, but the AF issues using native Sigma lenses on Sigma camera bodies between the Sigma DSLR cameras and their latest mirrorless offering do exist.

Communication speed between the camera body and lens internals is something else that can be tweaked. 

Of course, it could be some fancy new coating and a different shade of paint... but the internal stuff above could also have driven the 70-200 f/2.8III. Canon probably wouldn't disclose it.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 22, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



danski0224 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you think the current versions won't function properly with whatever mirrorless camera is coming out? My 600/4 II functions properly with my M6...
> ...



Irrelevant. You're 'answering' my question with a discussion about possible improvements and 3rd party compatibility problems. You stated that Canon superteles need to be updated, "...to function properly with whatever mirrorless camera is coming out." So I'll ask again...*Why do you think the current versions won't function properly with whatever mirrorless camera is coming out?* Especially given that current superteles function just fine with current Canon mirrorless cameras. 

It's ok if you can't come up with a cogent answer, you were probably just spreading FUD anyway.


----------



## unfocused (Jul 22, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



danski0224 said:


> ... but the internal stuff above could also have driven the 70-200 f/2.8III. Canon probably wouldn't disclose it.



That doesn't make any sense. If a company makes an improvement to a product why wouldn't they talk about it? A simple statement like, "improvements to internal electronics to improve autofocus accuracy with the next generation of Canon cameras," would be a standard marketing phrase that Canon would have certainly highlighted if it were the case. 

Of course, if such improvements aren't necessary because the lenses already will work just fine with future generations of cameras, then any imagined "internal stuff" wouldn't be disclosed because they don't exist.


----------



## Talys (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neuroanatomist said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...



I should rephrase.

Every single EF L lens I've ever seen works better on a 6DII in live view mode with DPAF than any lens of any make on a Sony A7R3 when it comes to autofocus speed and ability to lock without hunting in either continuous or single autofocus mode.

However, they're not all equal. Some EF L lenses definitely feel like they focus more quickly and quietly than other EF L lenses. For example, an 100mm/2.8 prime works great in live view DPAF mode, but a 70-200/2.8 at 100mm feels faster and quieter (it's a purely unscientific "feels like to me" observation; I could be wrong).


----------



## danski0224 (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

Most of this thread is FUD, so a little bit more can't hurt.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Talys said:


> > Can someone indicate which specific EF L lenses don't 'work flawlessly with live view DPAF' and how their performance is lacking?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of course they're not all equal. The 70-200/2.8L II focuses faster and more quietly than the 100/2.8L Macro using dedicated PDAF (viewfinder) as well as in live view (old-style CDAF, Hybrid CMOS, or DPAF). The 85/1.2L's AF was, to be polite, ponderous. Those differences are due to intrinsic properties of the lenses. But your statement implied that some lenses don't work well _specifically with DPAF_, or at least that's how I interpreted it (as did jolyonralph). 

Perhaps *jolyonralph* can clarify which lenses Canon would have to 'immediately withdraw from sale' to avoid a 'nightmare'. 

I'd ask *danski0224*, but it's now obvious he was just making crap up as he went along.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

EF lenses (except the 3 STM, 1 Nano-USM) were designed solely for mirrorslapper stills capture using off-sensor Phase Detect AF unit. they will not have the same AF performance in live view mode (DSLRs) and on mirrorless cams - including Canon DPAF implementations up to now (they differ, depending on Canon EOS model - eg 5d4 better than 6d2 or m5/m6). maybe future generations of Canon DPAF sensors, DIGIC hardware capabilities and smartness of algorithms used will change this. but so far, even the relatively best implementations of Canon DPAF are not delivering better performance (if at all) in stills shooting than current-gen Hybrid on-sensor AF (eg Sony A7iii, A9). definitely not with "standard USM" EF lenses. on the other side ALL Sony FE lenses are optimized for mirrorless operation, all of them have (different versions) of Linear Stepper motor AF drives. so (speculation!) maybe current Canon DP-AF implementations do indeed have a slight advantage over Sony's hybrid AF - but in practice it is equalized by lenses ability to play along well enough with on-sensor AF. 

Canon will also have to apply more effort towards the computational side of multi-pixel AF. it makes a difference to cross-relate phase shifted signals from a separate PD- AF sensor behind its own optical system [2 sharp but dark images] vs. on-sensor DP-AF [2 bright but blurry images]. advent of face + eye detect AF in M50 is hopefully a good sign for Canon finally stepping up to the plate. 

in short: i fully expect Canon DPAF (or eventually Quad-pixel AF) to eventually leverage their conceptional superiority and deliver "best-in class AF performance" in real products - but only in combination with new lenses that are optimized for it and able to fully utilize multi-pixel AF. "legacy" EF glass will never qualify for this. 

PS: it would be fabulous if Roger Cicala would look into this. comparing DPAF performance (stills capture, one- shot and servo/tracking AF) of a few Canon L and non L EF lenses - with Ring USM, Nano USM, DC Micro Motor, STM, on a few Canon DPAF cameras. ideally compared to sony A7III and A9 with a few FE lenses. i shall drop him a note. 

PPS: just to mention it: this is not necessarily related to a new mount, it could likely also be done in current EF mount.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



fullstop said:


> I n short: i fully expect Canon DPAF (or eventually Quad-pixel AF) to eventually leverage their conceptional superiority and deliver "best-in class AF performance" in real products - *but only in combination with new lenses that are optimized for it and able to fully utilize multi-pixel AF.* "legacy" EF glass will never qualify for this.



A lens has a focusing group – one or more elements that move forward/backward to bring the image into focus at the image plane. The focusing group is driven by a motor, of various types and speeds, but all with the same function – moving the focusing group to the position specified by the camera body to which the lens is attached. What about that needs to be 'optimized to fully utilize multipixel AF'? (Hint: the correct response is, "Nothing.")

Just more FUD.


----------



## neonlight (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

Speed.


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## fullstop (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neuroanatomist said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > I n short: i fully expect Canon DPAF (or eventually Quad-pixel AF) to eventually leverage their conceptional superiority and deliver "best-in class AF performance" in real products - *but only in combination with new lenses that are optimized for it and able to fully utilize multi-pixel AF.* "legacy" EF glass will never qualify for this.
> ...



"in principle" yes. 
"in practice": apparently no. 
There are a good number of steps and components involved to determine and communicate direction, amount and speed of required AF group/s movement ... 

I expect "full extent of legacy EF glass functional limitations" on mirrorless cams/on-sensor DPAF will become more evident once new native EF-X glass becomes available that will all of a sudden be capable of "Sony-esque" things.


----------



## tron (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neonlight said:


> Speed.


Then the only lens that needed update - the EF85mm 1.2L II - has kinda of being updated in the form of EF85mm 1.4L IS. All other lenses have satisfactory to superb speed...


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## jolyonralph (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neuroanatomist said:


> A lens has a focusing group – one or more elements that move forward/backward to bring the image into focus at the image plane. The focusing group is driven by a motor, of various types and speeds, but all with the same function – moving the focusing group to the position specified by the camera body to which the lens is attached. What about that needs to be 'optimized to fully utilize multipixel AF'? (Hint: the correct response is, "Nothing.")



The EF 70-300 IS, for example, is a lens that when used on the EOS M5 with official adaptor is next to useless. It hunts forwards and backwards constantly when trying to focus. 

Why is this? Why should it perform worse on a mirrorless camera than on a DSLR? The only thing I can think of is that the camera tries to estimate how much to refocus the lens to adjust based on focusing data, sends the signal to the lens to refocus, which in this case adjusts too much, causing the camera to adjust back again, etc etc.

The EF-M 55-200 to compare has absolutely none of these characteristics and focuses quickly and smoothly.


----------



## danski0224 (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neuroanatomist said:


> What about that needs to be 'optimized to fully utilize multipixel AF'? (Hint: the correct response is, "Nothing.")
> 
> Just more FUD.



Precision, position feedback come to mind....

but WTF do I know.

Sigma is revamping their lenses for no reason, apparently, because you know all...


----------



## fullstop (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



jolyonralph said:


> The EF 70-300 IS, for example, is a lens that when used on the EOS M5 with official adaptor is next to useless. It hunts forwards and backwards constantly when trying to focus.



Original version or Mk. II of the 70-300 IS? Would be interesting, since Mk. II got Nano-USM focus drive, which - at least in theory - might/should work better with mirrorless/DPAF [Liveview mode].


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neonlight said:


> Speed.



So you’re saying that current L series lenses with ring USM motors focus too fast for mirror less cameras? That’s why all of Canon’s EF-M lenses have the slower STM motors, which are ‘optimized for mirrorless’ (but are also used in EF and EF-S lenses).

Yeah, that makes oodles of sense. :


----------



## fullstop (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

main reason for STM lenses was silent operation for video use. But those linear stepper motors also seem to be able to handle signals from on-sensor PDAF better than (regular) USM lenses. 

Maybe [speculation!] it [also] has to do with "mechanical play in the manual focus gear" of EF lenses. "That whole antiquated 19th century helicoid mechanical sh*t"! Not as precise or fast than a "really right" dual LEM AF drive. 

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/04/a-look-at-electromagnetic-focusing/


----------



## jolyonralph (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neuroanatomist said:


> So you’re saying that current L series lenses with ring USM motors focus too fast for mirror less cameras?



It's not the L lenses that are likely to be the problem. It's the lower-priced non-L lenses such as the 70-300 example I gave. 

A simple solution would be for Canon to remove from their lineup all of the older lenses that don't perform well with a new mirrorless EF body. As long as they don't actively sell lenses that don't work well with the new body there's no problem.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

may i ask again please: 70-300 IS USM or Mk. II of that lens?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



jolyonralph said:


> The EF 70-300 IS, for example, is a lens that when used on the EOS M5 with official adaptor is next to useless. It hunts forwards and backwards constantly when trying to focus.



Which 70-300 IS lens? (There are four: Non-L, non-L MkII, L, DO.)


----------



## YuengLinger (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

Ah ha!!! Adapter troubles. 

Exactly why I asked about waiting to buy new EF lenses with a new mount expected on the Canon FF mirrorless.


----------



## Talys (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neuroanatomist said:


> But your statement implied that some lenses don't work well _specifically with DPAF_, or at least that's how I interpreted it (as did jolyonralph).



You're absolutely right; I realized that upon re-reading my original post, hence the clarification. I've not encountered any EF L lens that is amazing with PDAF but terrible with LiveView.


----------



## Talys (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neuroanatomist said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > The EF 70-300 IS, for example, is a lens that when used on the EOS M5 with official adaptor is next to useless. It hunts forwards and backwards constantly when trying to focus.
> ...



The current, Non-L MkII works great with DPAF on a 80D or 6D2.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



YuengLinger said:


> Ah ha!!! Adapter troubles.
> 
> Exactly why I asked about waiting to buy new EF lenses with a new mount expected on the Canon FF mirrorless.



So for you, the 'information' in this thread constitutes convincing evidence of incompatibility between current EF lenses and future mirrorless cameras? 

Ah ha!!! Confirmation bias. :


----------



## fullstop (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



YuengLinger said:


> Ah ha!!! Adapter troubles.
> 
> Exactly why I asked about waiting to buy new EF lenses with a new mount expected on the Canon FF mirrorless.



Not "adapter trouble". Most likely "Lens limitation trouble" with regards to "Live View / mirrorless / DPAF focusing". 

Although Jony has not specified yet, I think he is referring to the Non L EF 70-300 IS USM [1st gen]. And likely liveView / mirrorless AF performance is the main reason why the Mk. II of that lens got a Nano-USM AF drive.


----------



## jolyonralph (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



fullstop said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Ah ha!!! Adapter troubles.
> ...



I should have been more specific, sorry. Yes, it's the EF 70-300 IS USM Mark 1. 

It would be interesting to see which if any of the current retail lenses have such issues. Maybe the older primes?


----------



## takesome1 (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



tron said:


> neonlight said:
> 
> 
> > Speed.
> ...



How we forget the 180mm L macro.


----------



## unfocused (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



neuroanatomist said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Ah ha!!! Adapter troubles.
> ...



Clearly you don't understand. Canon is updating many of its "L" lenses because they are secretly planning to abandon the EF mount. Therefore, we should all stop buying EF lenses today. And now we have clear evidence of problems with adapters because one person reports problems with one very old and never great lens.


----------



## ERHP (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



unfocused said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > YuengLinger said:
> ...



Step 1: Update all "L" EF mount lenses
Step 2: Release camera with new mount that is incompatible w/ EF
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit


----------



## nchoh (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



danski0224 said:


> Most of this thread is FUD, so a little bit more can't hurt.



Why do you think it is fine to sow Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) on this site? Some of us sincerely want a fun place to discuss Canon Rumors.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



jolyonralph said:


> I should have been more specific, sorry. Yes, it's the EF 70-300 IS USM Mark 1.
> 
> It would be interesting to see which if any of the current retail lenses have such issues. Maybe the older primes?


75-300 and probably (but unlikely) 50/1.4?

That's the only "micro-USM" lenses currently being sold by B&H as new.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



jolyonralph said:


> I should have been more specific, sorry. Yes, it's the EF 70-300 IS USM Mark 1.



maybe if you have a chance to try out the EF 70-300 IS Mk. II on your M5 in the same situation as the Mk. I ... to see whether they both show the same AF issues on DPAF/mirrorless? If you do, I'd be interested to hear about findings, thx!


----------



## nchoh (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

Just to share on this thread...

There are 2 technologies that are recently being discussed and they need to be understood to have an intelligent conversation -
1) DPAF 
2) STM motors.

DPAF delivers all the additional benefits of focusing that was being sought. Each pixel pair is able to determine if focus is in front or behind and by how much (see Canon's site). Quad or multi pixel does not give any AF advantage more than what DPAF gives.

STM motors have defined steps, each step is a fixed angle from which the focus distance is known ahead of time. With the information that the DPAF can collect, the DIGIC processor can send information to the lens to smoothly and in a straightforward manner focus the lens. Albeit, a STM is slower than the USM motor. So STM works well with DPAF, or conversely, DPAF's additional information can be precisely used by STM lenses. 

USM motors need a more complex algorithm to focus and needs to hunt to focus. This need to hunt (backwards /forwards) movement creates challenges for heavy focus lens groups that have inadequate motors.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*

agree with most of your posting.

Except:


nchoh said:


> Quad or multi pixel does not give any AF advantage more than what DPAF gives.



yes it does. Quad Pixel will allow [virtual] "cross-sensitive AF fields". Dual-pixel - especially when all pixels have the same orientation for the 2 photo diodes [up/down or left/right] as in current Canon implementations - only allows equivalents of "line AF sensors" - and those only in 1 direction ... discussed this aspect a number of times already.


----------



## nchoh (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



fullstop said:


> agree with most of your posting.
> 
> Except:
> 
> ...



You are right, I did not think about that. 

However... with every dual-pixel giving distance information, the camera has a "3D" map and in most cases would be able to accurately determine the focus distance from adjacent pixels.

By treating every group of distance indeterminate pixels as a surface, the camera can interpolate the distance of each surface from it's edge. It would be, I believe, in practical terms, accurate enough.


----------



## Talys (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



jolyonralph said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > YuengLinger said:
> ...



Curious. I have an old 70-300 as well as the current Nano USM version, and both work pretty well in live view on a 6D2. I mean, not like a 100-400LII, but certainly acceptable by my standards. Given sufficient light for f/5.6 (like a sunny day), it doesn't hunt at all.

Perhaps it is just the awesomeness that is the 6D2 8)


----------



## ethanz (Jul 24, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Talys said:


> Curious. I have an old 70-300 as well as the current Nano USM version, and both work pretty well in live view on a 6D2. I mean, not like a 100-400LII, but certainly acceptable by my standards. Given sufficient light for f/5.6 (like a sunny day), it doesn't hunt at all.
> 
> Perhaps it is just the awesomeness that is the 6D2 8)



But, 6d2 crappy camera? ??? : ;D


----------



## Quirkz (Jul 24, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



fullstop said:


> main reason for STM lenses was silent operation for video use. But those linear stepper motors also seem to be able to handle signals from on-sensor PDAF better than (regular) USM lenses



Of course, yes, it’s obvious. The digital signal generated by the algorithms running on camera cpu to analyze the sensor data and control the movement of the lens motors must be very different between the two AF methods, because it’s impossible to make a sequence of 1s and 0s the same.

You do see how silly that sounds, right?


----------



## nchoh (Jul 24, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Quirkz said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > main reason for STM lenses was silent operation for video use. But those linear stepper motors also seem to be able to handle signals from on-sensor PDAF better than (regular) USM lenses
> ...



Actually no.

A stepper motor is controlled very differently than other types of motors. A stepper motor has steps, hence the name. Each step is a fixed angle. For example a stepper motor with 365 steps would move precisely 1 degree for each step called and move forward or backward a precise amount based on the screw. So the difference between a stepper motor performance versus other types of motors is because the stepper motor is able to take different instructions.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 24, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



nchoh said:


> A stepper motor is controlled very differently than other types of motors. A stepper motor has steps, hence the name. Each step is a fixed angle. For example a stepper motor with 365 steps would move precisely 1 degree for each step called and move forward or backward a precise amount based on the screw. So the difference between a stepper motor performance versus other types of motors is because the stepper motor is able to take different instructions.


And how is it different from the AF protocol EOS camera uses with any other EF lens?


----------



## nchoh (Jul 24, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Kit. said:


> nchoh said:
> 
> 
> > A stepper motor is controlled very differently than other types of motors. A stepper motor has steps, hence the name. Each step is a fixed angle. For example a stepper motor with 365 steps would move precisely 1 degree for each step called and move forward or backward a precise amount based on the screw. So the difference between a stepper motor performance versus other types of motors is because the stepper motor is able to take different instructions.
> ...



With DPAF the STM focus algorithm would be like; move forward 22 steps fast, move forward 1 step slow. 

A usm lens algorithm could be like; move forward half the distance, check focus, if front focused, move forward half of remainder, if back focused, move back half the distance. Repeat above. keep repeating until in focus. When the lens is slow or the focusing sensor is having a hard time, this hunting is apparent to user.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 24, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



nchoh said:


> Kit. said:
> 
> 
> > nchoh said:
> ...


Why?

Why not just move the equivalent of 22 STM steps "fast" and check if you are in focus now? Looks exactly what the big white lenses are doing.


----------



## nchoh (Jul 24, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Kit. said:


> nchoh said:
> 
> 
> > Kit. said:
> ...



I am explaining how it works in really basic, off the top of my head... I don't know the precise details of how it is implemented.

Yes, it could move precisely to the point as DPAF makes the exact distance known immediately. But the smoothness of how it focuses suggests that there is a bit of slowdown at the end... kind of like how Apple pioneered the bounce effect rather than a hard stop... psychologically easier and more comfortable for the brain.

But what I was explaining was the difference of STM lenses with DPAF versus other types of lenses.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 24, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



nchoh said:


> I am explaining how it works in really basic, off the top of my head... I don't know the precise details of how it is implemented.


USM is a version of a stepper motor that makes more than 20000 small steps per second. Precise positioning with USM is easy.

What may be hard with USM is _slow continuous_ focus shift without slowing down its stepping frequency into audible sound range. I.e. USM may be a bad solution for video autofocus.


----------



## nchoh (Jul 24, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Kit. said:


> nchoh said:
> 
> 
> > I am explaining how it works in really basic, off the top of my head... I don't know the precise details of how it is implemented.
> ...



Technically not, but with technological improvements, the package may be equivalent. and I get your point.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 24, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*

(Ring-) USM AF drive and STM AF drive are technically different with different characteristics. They need different ways of addressing/communication/commands. 

As anyone can tell by simply comparing it, USM EF lenses' AF performance in DSLR mode is clearly better than in LiveView/mirrorless mode, irespective whether it is DP-AF - at least in all Canon implementations so far. This does not come as a surprise, since USM EF lenses where all designed for mirrorslapper operation with separate AF unit. 

So far, STM lenses are better suited for operation in LiveView/mirrorless/DP-AF mode. Not sure, whether EF/USM AF performance can be improved by future, smarter algorithms/firmware or not.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 24, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*

STM lenses are optimized for video (slower, quieter, smoother focus) and STM motors are better suited to consumer lenses because they are cheaper to produce than ring USM motors. 

If Canon does use a new mount for FF MILCs, they're almost certainly going to release L-series lenses to accompany those cameras. When those L-series lenses have ring USM motors in them, that _should_ (but knowing this forum probably will not) put an end to this bullsh!t about STM being optimized for mirrorless.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 24, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*

"STM" and similar electromagnetic linear drives are better suited for mirrorless/on-sensor PDAF systems. Just check Rogers list ... https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/04/a-look-at-electromagnetic-focusing/

Sony, Fuji, Zeiss (Batis) - all using a lot of Linear Electromagnetic AF drives, not only for low-end consumer lenses but also for big, "hi-end" lenses like Sony GM or Zeiss Batis. 

Dual, triple, quad Linear Electromagnetic AF drives rulez for mirrorless operation. I would not be surprised, if Canon "EF-X" lenses will also be equipped with LEM AF drives, especially the "L class" ones. In combination with future, improved implementations of Canon DP-AF or Quad-Pixel AF it is something to look forward to.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*



fullstop said:


> "STM" and similar electromagnetic linear drives are better suited for mirrorless/on-sensor PDAF systems. Just check Rogers list ... https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/04/a-look-at-electromagnetic-focusing/
> 
> Sony, Fuji, Zeiss (Batis) - all using a lot of Linear Electromagnetic AF drives, not only for low-end consumer lenses but also for big, "hi-end" lenses like Sony GM or Zeiss Batis.
> 
> Dual, triple, quad Linear Electromagnetic AF drives rulez for mirrorless operation. I would not be surprised, if Canon "EF-X" lenses will also be equipped with LEM AF drives, especially the "L class" ones. In combination with future, improved implementations of Canon DP-AF or Quad-Pixel AF it is something to look forward to.



STM and LEM AF motors are *not* similar (or if you prefer to believe they are, then USM motors are equally 'similar'). STM lenses are a tiny fraction of Roger's list, so that list does nothing to support the claim that STM lenses are 'optimized for mirrorless'. The fact that Canon uses STM lenses across the lineup —in EF, EF-S and EF-M lenses— also argues against that claim. 

It may be true that LEM motors are optimized for mirrorless. But it could just as easily be due to the fact that mirrorless manufacturers have chosen to adopt that technology for cost or other reasons. Nevertheless, LEM motors were not part of the original claim. Moving the goalposts is a regrettably common tactic for those who's arguments are failing.


----------



## ethanz (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New *

While I've never used an STM lens, I don't think I've had any problems with my USM L lenses in live view.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New *



ethanz said:


> While I've never used an STM lens, I don't think I've had any problems with my USM L lenses in live view.



Nor have I, not on DSLRs nor adapted to the EOS M/M2/M6. From what I've seen in this thread, one person has had a problem with one adapted lens, and another had no problems with that same model of lens. Occam's Razor suggests it's a defective lens, but here that somehow becomes lens incompatiblity and adapter problems.


----------



## fullstop (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*



neuroanatomist said:


> STM and LEM AF motors are *not* similar (or if you prefer to believe they are, then USM motors are equally 'similar').



I have to disagree. "STM" implementation/s by Canon are all using LINEAR motors, just like all LEM designs do. USM on the other hand always use rotational "drives".

Let me state my observation more precisely: i hold "LINEAR" drives [ideally with min. 2 "guiding rods"] for generally better suited in combination with [any sort of] on-sensor AF than ROTATIONAL drives. Especially for lenses that are focus-by-wire, without mechanical manual focusing coupling/gear. 

And I also hold "drive energy to come from a electro-magnetic vocal coil or a piezo-electric element" better than yesteryears ultra-sonic, vibrating rings. 

But ... personal belief, I am no engineer. Just an observant user.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*



fullstop said:


> I have to disagree. "STM" implementation/s by Canon are all using LINEAR motors,


According to their pictures, no, they are not. They are regular ("rotational") stepper motors.



fullstop said:


> And I also hold "drive energy to come from a electro-magnetic vocal coil or a piezo-electric element" better than yesteryears ultra-sonic, vibrating rings.
> 
> But ... personal belief, I am no engineer. Just an observant user.


So, you don't realize that "ultra-sonic, vibrating rings" _are_ a "a piezo-electric element"?


----------



## fullstop (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*

No, i don't think "ultrasonic" and "piezo-electric" are the same thing. 
Piezo-electric lighters for example don't say anything like "ultrasonic" [Canon], "super-sonic" [Sony], "hyper-sonic" [Sigma] on them. No "sonic" anything. 

And if Canon STM really are "rotational", that drive mode will disappear too. Why on earth should a purely linear motion [move AF group/s forward or backward along optical axis] be driven by a rotational drive that needs some form of gear and/or "helicoid grooves" to convert its motion to linear? Probably owned to "manual focus" property on EF lenses. 

Looking forward to reduced to the max, *pure AF* lenses. No rotation, no sonic, no gear, no focus ring, no moving mech iris blades, no mono-functional aperture rings. I would like to have a multi-functional ring around mount base on camera though. As implemented on a few Canon [and other makers'] cameras.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*



fullstop said:


> No, i don't think "ultrasonic" and "piezo-electric" are the same thing.


"Ultrasonic" is frequency. "Piezoelectric" is an effect that is used to convert electricity at this (or other) frequency into motion (or vice versa).

Are you really so ignorant of basic physics? That would explain a lot of your confusion.



fullstop said:


> And if Canon STM really are "rotational", that drive mode will disappear too. Why on earth should a purely linear motion [move AF group/s forward or backward along optical axis] be driven by a rotational drive that needs some form of gear and/or "helicoid grooves" to convert its motion to linear?


Why not? It is proven to be a cheap and reliable solution.



fullstop said:


> Probably owned to "manual focus" property on EF lenses.


No, STM lenses are focus-by-wire.


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## fullstop (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*

i know that canon stm lenses are focus by wire. even less reason to not using a LINEAR electromagnetic AF drive. 

re. piezo vs ultrasonic ... confusion is on your end. those are 2 different things, as i said. never saw anything saying canon usm lenses using piezo-electric drive. if so, canon would pobably have called them "PEM" lenses rather than USM ... ;D


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*



Kit. said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > No, i don't think "ultrasonic" and "piezo-electric" are the same thing.
> ...



Yes, he is. 




fullstop said:


> re. piezo vs ultrasonic ... confusion is on your end. those are 2 different things, as i said. never saw anything saying canon usm lenses using piezo-electric drive. if so, canon would pobably have called them "PEM" lenses rather than USM ... ;D



And in your world, if you've never seen it then you believe it doesn't exist? No, that's not right...you seem to believe all the 'facts' you invent in your head. 

[quote author=Canon]
The ring-type USM is actually very simple in operation. It is composed of a rotor and a stator – *an elastic body with a piezo-electric ceramic voltage element attached to it*. By applying an A/C current with a resonant frequency around 30,000Hz to the stator, vibrations are created causing the rotor to rotate continuously. 30,000Hz is in the ultrasonic range, and this is where the USM motors derive their name. (source)
[/quote]

Now, who's confused?


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## fullstop (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*

aha! alright. Canon USM is also piezo electric. Thanks for the information. 8)

That said, I'd still prefer LINEAR, gear-less, helicoid-free AF drives.


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## nchoh (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*



fullstop said:


> aha! alright. Canon USM is also piezo electric. Thanks for the information. 8)
> 
> That said, I'd still prefer LINEAR, gear-less, helicoid-free AF drives.



Good news for you, Canon has 2 versions of the STM motor. One is a gear-less and helicoid-free!


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## Kit. (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*



nchoh said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > aha! alright. Canon USM is also piezo electric. Thanks for the information. 8)
> ...


Actually, it is still "rotational" and comes with its own "lead-screw" helicoid.


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## fullstop (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*

does it have to be a threaded lead SCREW? Would non-threaded simple "lead rods" [2 or better 3 at 120 degree orientation) not be sufficient? "Clamping" AF group/s in any desired position could be achieved with electromagnet/s, no?


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## nchoh (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*



Kit. said:


> nchoh said:
> 
> 
> > fullstop said:
> ...



I know.


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## Kit. (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*



fullstop said:


> does it have to be a threaded lead SCREW? Would non-threaded simple "lead rods" [2 or better 3 at 120 degree orientation) not be sufficient? "Clamping" AF group/s in any desired position could be achieved with electromagnet/s, no?


I wonder what you request next. A fully plastic lens mount, because having a metal one is obviously not "DPAF-friendly" enough?


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## fullstop (Jul 25, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*



Kit. said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > does it have to be a threaded lead SCREW? Would non-threaded simple "lead rods" [2 or better 3 at 120 degree orientation) not be sufficient? "Clamping" AF group/s in any desired position could be achieved with electromagnet/s, no?
> ...



i have no issue with hi-grade plastic mounts on inexpensive, light lenses. My few lenses with it are fine. 
also, i was not "demanding something". I was simply asking about some aspects of Canon's STM implementations.


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## stevelee (Jul 26, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*

I had a choice last fall of kit lenses when I bought my camera last fall between body only, STM, or L USM. 

I decided to get the STM to hold me until I could afford and decide on other lenses. Moving from a T3i I didn’t really have FF range covered very well, so I decided against body only. The tests I saw suggested not a lot of IQ difference, and the L was maybe $500 more. I’m no pro, and if the weather is bad, I won’t be out taking pictures, so weather sealing is not much of a factor. Also, something gave me the impression that the STM might do better focusing on moving subjects when shooting video. Weight was probably more of a factor for me than the f-stop loss on the long end. And then there was the $500 when I was about to do a cruise, 2 1/2 week’s in Hawaii, and a week in the LA area. 

I don’t much care for the focus by wire, so I find myself using autofocus more than with other lenses. It works great, except when I was shooting some pick-up basketball, the autofocus seemed to hone in on the writing on the floor instead of the players. On subsequent nights, rather than learning how to set the autofocus to suit, I just went to manual focus, focused on the hoop, and let depth of field cover the whole court. That worked well enough, but defeated my using the project as a learning experience. I also tried a custom white balance, shooting a white piece of paper in the wonky lighting. There was plenty of light, but they don’t turn on the TV lights, and I bet there’re gaps in the spectrum. The flicker warning came on, so I turned on that compensation. The color result wasn’t so great, so subsequent nights I just used auto white balance and tried to fix in post, rather than taking along a proper gray card and running tests. The stabilization did work impressively. 

I realize I have strayed from strictly STM issues. But the bottom line is that I have not regretted the STM lens choice, and the limitations have more to do with the laziness of the photographer than with the technology. And the $500 bought me a helicopter ride to the volcano that has since become more active, a submarine ride, and change left over to apply to one of my other tours.


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## sportskjutaren (Jul 28, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*



Don Haines said:


> A bit of history here...
> 
> The EF mount (EF stands for Electro Focus) came out in 1987. The primary design feature of the mount was that all communication to and from the lens be done through serial data streams (thus allowing auto-focus) and that there be no mechanical couplings such as levers... It replaced the FD mount, which had levers and a couple of dedicated pins. FD mount was not conducive to automatic focusing. Canon had realized that it was a dead end, and eventually Nikon also realized that mechanical linkages were passe….
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing Your knowledge on this!

FYI, I have a degree as a "service engineer".
Which means I studied analog and digital electronics for three years about 30 years ago.
Enough for me to get a deeper understanding of that part than most others, at least that's what I like to believe 

It´s sad that most people discussing in this thread either didn't take their time to read Your post carefully enough.
Or they don't really understand the technical side of this well enough.

Basically, what You write. Is that Canon has developed a "version 2" of the EF-mount. That is fully backward compatible with the existing EF-mount.

Considering what happened since the EF mount was released. There is a possibility to upgrade the speed which the body and the lens communicates. Big, big, big time.
I do also see a possibility to actually ad new "functions" to the protocol.
And that creates a possibility of great AF improvements.
Without a need for a "new" mount that won't work with existing bodies and lenses.
Also, without a need for "adapters".

To me, it makes a lot of sense. A lot more than a new mount that won't work with older lenses (with or without "adapters").

Another part that's important to understand here. Is that a totally new mount unlikely will improve AF performance.
No matter of which kind of AF-motor that's inside the lens.

There is a lot to say about this. 
One thing that's really important to understand here.
Is that a whole lot of AF-performance is built into the lens itself.
As an example. The EF 400/2,8L IS II USM has "sensors" that measures the position of focus, which improves accuracy from previous lenses. That didn't have this built in.
I.E. You can make USM faster with DPAF, without a totally new mount.

Considering the "trade-offs" with a totally new mount. 
The only reason for introducing it. Would be the possibility to make the bodies smaller.

My very personal opinion is that I don't really want smaller bodies while working with "FF-lenses" especially lenses from 70-200/2,8 and bigger.
I do actually prefer the size of the 1D-series. Both for the ergonomic part. And how it affects the balance when working with l"big lenses". Also, it allows for bigger batteries, with a longer battery time. And a built-in ethernet port.



RGF said:


> Will Canon put a drop in extender into their III super teles? This would allow them to raise their price point and give a real incentive for all current owners to upgrade.
> ...



Personally, I do definitely hope so.
N***n recently upgraded their V.2 of the 200-400 to a 180-400 with built-in TC, and reduced weight at the same time.
I would totally love a 400/2,8 with built-in 1,4X TC.
It would pretty much be 400/2,8 and a 600/4 (well 560/4) in the same lens. 
Would be absolutely great for soccer and some other sports. And make the lens more versatile, without trade-offs for DOF.




Mr Majestyk said:


> Clever, you know that has just to do with lack of glass and not the cameras AF,
> ...



Well, for somebody that actually worked during the recent "WC" in Russia.
I did see three photographers with Sony gear. And mostly Canon lenses on it.

That said. For Sony to actually take over a big part of sports photographers.
The need to improve their "pro support" big, big time.
At the WC, just like other really big sports events. Both Canon and N***n have both loaners and service such as cleaning bodies and lenses available at all games. If they can, they even fix broken gear, on place. (I had a worn out lens mount exchanged during the EURO 2016 in France).
So far Sony doesn´t offer this kind of service. (And their existing "pro service" is, so far, limited to a pretty small amount of countries around the world).
It´s also absolutely crucial that the build in the possibility to transfer images by FTP, to their cameras. Both wireless and thru ethernet. (On the really big events only Ethernet are stable enough, and both UEFA and FIFA offer at least on ethernet cable for each photographer. The only solution stable and fast enough in that kind of games/events).

For what it is worth. The games Sweden played, I did transmit images straight from my camera directly to a major Swedish newspaper. Most of them cropped in camera before transmitting them. (Other than that I also submitted my work to the worlds biggest photo agency.
Something not possible with Sony right now.

Another issue is battery life, and problems when the buffer gets full.

(And if somebody is interested, some of my images, and some tear sheets from the "World cup" can be found here: https://agency.jkpg-sports.photo/index/G0000FrucfpGrwrQ ).

[EDIT]
I do truly like the idea of Sony become a true competitor to both Canon & Nikon when it comes to pro/sports photo.
It would benefit us all.
And i would actually love to try their gear.
That said, I do think that Sony has several things to improve first.
[/EDIT]


----------



## neonlight (Jul 29, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*

...so the EF replacement mount will be ...EF with either chip interfaces that can detect faster comms, or perhaps an extra pin that existing EF lenses won't have and wont comm to the new body?


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## sportskjutaren (Jul 29, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*



neonlight said:


> ...so the EF replacement mount will be ...EF with either chip interfaces that can detect faster comms, or perhaps an extra pin that existing EF lenses won't have and wont comm to the new body?



The EF mount uses a serial interface.
To make it a little bit simplified.
It uses one pin for all communication from the body to the lens.
And another pin for all communication from the lens to the body.
(You can find a longer description here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EF_lens_mount ).
With an "EF V2" using a higher transfer speed. There is really no need at all for another pin, at all.
Even if You want to add new functions to the existing protocols. IE cameras/lenses.


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## neonlight (Jul 29, 2018)

*Re: A Bit More About the New \*

a standard pin EF with faster interface chips makes sense.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 1, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> *Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Let's say the new Canon FF mirrorless is capable of 20 fps with AF tracking between each frame.

Let's say the aperture diaphragm servos in many or most older Canon EF lenses, even the L series, aren't fast enough to support 20 fps because they've never had to be that fast before.

Let's say that some of the recent lens updates, including "underwhelming" ones (specifically, the EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS III and EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS II) have upgraded aperture diaphragm servos that are fast enough to support 20 fps. Canon would not tell us about this "hidden" feature in lenses introduced for 2-3 years before the new 20 fps body is slated to be rolled out. That's not how Canon announces upcoming products.

This is how Canon has often operated in the past: silently including capability for planned future products (lenses, flashes, etc) in models introduced for 2-4 years before the new product is revealed. Only once the new product is rolled out does Canon assure everyone that the camera models introduced over the past couple of years or more already have the capability built-in to take advantage of the new features of the new product.

One example: The new 470EX-AI whiz-bang motorized self positioning bounce flash. It turns out that every camera body (except the 1x00D bargain basement Rebels) introduced by Canon since 2014 has the ability to use the new self positioning features of the 470EX-AI introduced in early 2018.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 1, 2018)

unfocused said:


> *Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Because that's not the way that Canon has done such things in the past.

Only when the new product with the new or upgraded features is announced and released does Canon reveal that other products released in the past 2-4 years already have the capability of taking advantage of the new features when working with the new product.

One example: The new 470EX-AI whiz-bang motorized self positioning bounce flash. It turns out that every camera body (except the 1x00D bargain basement Rebels) introduced by Canon since 2014 has the ability to use the new self positioning features of the 470EX-AI introduced in early 2018.

Why would Canon have announced in 2014 when they introduced the 7D Mark II, "Oh, by the way, the 7D Mark II has the built-in capability to drive the motorized self-positioning bounce flash we're going to introduce three and a half years from now?"

All that would have accomplished is

1) Tipping off the competition of a new product they are planning and allowing the competition three years to try and match or beat it

2) Making the product "ho-hum" by the time it is actually released three and a half years after they have told everyone they are creating it

and

3) Three-quarters of the people on CR bitching for three years about "when is Canon going to finally release the new motorized bounce head flash?"


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 1, 2018)

nchoh said:


> *Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*
> 
> Just to share on this thread...
> 
> ...



SInce about 2010 USM lenses (at least the L-series) have included more accurate focus position sensors in the lens that can more accurately report to the camera the position of the focus assemblies and give the camera more accurate control over the positioning of the AF elements in those lenses. Roger Cicala talked about it in his well-known blog entry: https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/autofocus-reality-part-3b-canon-cameras/


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## Michael Clark (Aug 1, 2018)

tron said:


> *Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*
> 
> Yes because everyone wants to drive a 600mm f/4L IS I,II,III,whatever lens with a small mirrorless camera ;D



What makes you think _mirrorless_ MUST necessarily also be _small?_


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 1, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> *Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In the past, Canon has usually silently included capability for use with future planned products with cameras released anywhere from 2-4 years before the new product with the new/increased feature is released.

One example: The new 470EX-AI whiz-bang motorized self positioning bounce flash. It turns out that every camera body (except the 1x00D bargain basement Rebels) introduced by Canon since 2014 has the ability to use the new self positioning features of the 470EX-AI introduced in early 2018. 

Another example: When the first IS lens was released in 1995 every EOS body introduced since around 1992 already had the ability to control IS in the new lens. 

In both cases above, as well as in other similar cases, Canon did not announce future compatibility with planned products having new/upgraded features and capabilities when they silently included the ability to work with those planned products in models introduced before the planned product. They waited until the new product was announced and then told everyone the previous products already had the capability to work with the new product.

How do we know that recent Canon lens updates don't include compatibility with new features or enhanced capabilities that the upcoming Canon FF mirrorless body will have? _We don't._


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## Michael Clark (Aug 1, 2018)

takesome1 said:


> *Re: A Bit More About the New \*
> 
> I am not buying this rumor, at least the version III part.
> Those lenses just haven't been out long enough.
> ...




A new 800mm f/5.6 L IS would be a version II, not a version III.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 1, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> *Re: A Bit More About the New \*
> 
> 8)
> If this rumor is true, then there must be something more to these lenses than we are being told. As has been mentioned, there may be a faster communication protocol being implemented to be compatible with future cameras, or better AF motors to improve on focus speed or accuracy. Maybe somethings else? But optics improvements alone dont’t seem to be worth the effort when consumers are asking for other lenses.




That's typically the way Canon does things. When the first IS lens was announced in 1995, most EOS body introduced since around 1993 had the ability to use the new IS lens silently included when those bodies were released. When the 470EX-AI was introduced in early 2018, Canon also informed us that every body introduced since mid-2014 (other than the lowest entry level 1x00D Rebels) has the ability to control the new whiz-bang self aiming bounce head. There are plenty other such examples since the EF mount was introduced in 1987.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 1, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> *Re: A Bit More About the New \*
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the 100-400mm, released two years ago as a complete revision of its predecessor, is not part of the discussion, Don. It's the very minimal, gratuitous "updates" we've seen in the past year which suggest that Canon, feeling some heat about mirrorless, is trying to keep the EF line going until a transition is acheived.



Either that or Canon has been releasing updated lenses with the (thus far silent) ability to work with new features and enhanced capabilities of planned future camera bodies that will use the EF mount.

It will be far from the first time products that were trashed by fanboys when they were introduced as "not enough of an upgrade" were later proved to have silently included the capability needed to take advantage of new products/features/technology revealed later when another new product was introduced that required that capability from the previous product (e.g. When the first IS lens was introduced by Canon in 1995 many of the bodies released over the previous 2-3 years already had the capability to control IS on the new lens.)


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 1, 2018)

nchoh said:


> *Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*
> 
> 
> 
> Sony recently came out with some big glass for sport photography. Together with their A7 gets about 20 fps in focus. Canon's and Nikon's best gig can only deliver 10 fps focused. Even if they don't sell alot of lenses for those purposes, it's still a huge market and the only way to keep Sony off that market is to introduce a FF camera.



With certain lenses, even the A9 only gets 5 fps if you want it to track moving objects between each frame. Yeah, it can do 20 fps with a handful of lenses or if you don't need the focus distance to change from one frame to the next. With the same restriction, the Canon 1D X Mark II can shoot at 16fps. It can track focus between each frame at 14 fps with any EF lens, which the Sony can't do with more than a couple of specific FE G Master lenses.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 1, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> *Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming*
> 
> 
> 
> I guess you mean the a9. 20 fps with some lenses, 15 fps with others. The 1D X II does 14 fps. But hey, they're just numbers, right? Sure, unless your numbers are wrong.



The a9 is as slow as 5 fps with AF tracking between frames when adapting lenses such as the EF 300 f/2.8 l IS II or 500mm or 600mm IS II versions of the big whites (because Sony doesn't have a 300mm f/2.8 or 500mm f/4 or 600mm f/4 or 800mm f/5.6... )


----------



## takesome1 (Aug 1, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> A new 800mm f/5.6 L IS would be a version II, not a version III.


 
Yes it would be. What ever happened to the 800mm II *rumor*? It is the one overdue.


----------



## sportskjutaren (Aug 2, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> Either that or Canon has been releasing updated lenses with the (thus far silent) ability to work with new features and enhanced capabilities of planned future camera bodies that will use the EF mount.
> ...



I´ve been thinking a lot about this "mount subject". Especially since there is a patent for what I like to call an "EF mkII communication protocol".

As of today EF lenses are fully compatible with EF-s bodies. I.E. EF and EF-s mounts, use the same "pinning" and the same communication protocol.

If Canon decides to go with a "new" mount for FF Mirorless bodies. It would be the most logical, and practical, solution. 
To go just the same way again.
Go with the "EF mkII communication protocol". And then either make it possible to use EF-lenses with our without some kind of "adapter". 
Depending on what "lens-gap" they will use. That would make all existing EF-lenses usable. 
It would also be possible for upcoming EF-lenses with improved performance.

I would actually be surprised if some existing lenses. Like the EF 70-200/2,8L IS III USM doesn't already have the "EF mkII communication protocol" built into it.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 2, 2018)

takesome1 said:


> Yes it would be. What ever happened to the 800mm II *rumor*? It is the one overdue.



The rumor that started *this thread* says two new version III big whites.


----------



## takesome1 (Aug 2, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> The rumor that started *this thread* says two new version III big whites.




Yes, and you obviously miss read my original comment. Which was:

_I am not buying this rumor, at least the version III part.
Those lenses just haven't been out long enough._


----------



## neonlight (Aug 3, 2018)

yes, some time ago there were rumors of an 800 DO and a 1000 DO. As I suggested in an earlier post, these might be a "gen III" lens, not a Mk III lens. 
Well, this is a rumors site.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 4, 2018)

takesome1 said:


> Yes, and you obviously miss read my original comment. Which was:
> 
> _I am not buying this rumor, at least the version III part.
> Those lenses just haven't been out long enough._



The EF 300mm f/2.8 L IS II and the EF 400mm f/2.8 L IS II were both announced in 2010 and released in early 2011. If their replacements are announced in Q3 of 2018 and ship in early 2019, that will be eight years.

That's not too far off the 8.5 years the EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II had before being replaced by the EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS III.

This would be especially reasonable in the case that the primary reason for the "short" updates is to make the newer versions compatible with features/performance enhancements of an impending camera body that require them for full capability.


----------

