# Going medium format for studio work?



## Colorista (May 27, 2013)

Hi, I'm sorry if this is an inadequate section of the forum but I didn't know where to put this.

Long time reader, first time writer.
I know this is a Canon forum, and since I'm a Canon shooter, I'm not familiar with any other forum 
Please don't flame me for my lack of knowledge on this subject.

First, I've been a Canon shooter since year 2003-something, and before that I was shooting with film doing the old dark room tasks we all did. It was so long ago that I feel that I don't remember much of that work flow at all now, at least not practically. I love my Canon SLRs and lately my 5D MKIII.

However, I think I'm ready to step it up a notch, at least for studio work. So, I'm considering getting a Hasselblad or Phaseone-camera to accompany my Canon gear. (Again, sorry if you think that this is the wrong forum for my question).

I'd love to have a Hasselbland and I feel embarrassed when I meet other photographers and I don't know anything about that technology. It's like talking to someone with a 1DX when you got a powershot  I do consider my self a professional photographer but without medium format knowledge I sometimes think that I'm really just a hack. Which is kind of depressing. 

So, to my question. I really want to know more about this kind of photography and I'm thinking of taking a loan for a digital Hasselblad. Which one to get? Seems like a jungle and I even read some letter from a Hasselblad employee trying to explain the differences between the models, I'm still clueless. What's a good model? What more do I need? Anything I should be aware of? I would call the company but I'm afraid to feel like a "noob" like the kidz say without any prior knowledge.

Thank you for reading,

Edit: I also want to say that I'm not thinking about going medium format because of appearance. I really want to learn this stuff.


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## sanj (May 27, 2013)

I do not have a reply to your question but I agree with your efforts. Do inbox me when you have done your research.

Best wishes and happy shooting!


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## unfocused (May 27, 2013)

Colorista said:


> ...I would call the company but I'm afraid to feel like a "noob" like the kidz say without any prior knowledge...



There is no reason to hesitate to call the company. This is high-end stuff and if you have the means to buy, they will be only too happy to guide you through the choices. Also, I notice on their website that they have a worldwide listing of rental outlets. You might consider a rental before buying.


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## Neopulse (May 28, 2013)

I agree with above. Rent one before purchasing. It's a huge investment to go medium format ESPECIALLY Phase One cameras. Why not try them in certain conditions and compare them. Dedicated 3-5 solid days on testing out the cameras to see which one does better in future conditions you will. The reason I am with 35mm was the portability (along with price tag) and it's great low-light performance. And also glad you are quite humble in asking for advice before doign such a leap. I myself am curious about what you find out in your personal research. I doubt I will purchase a medium format camera in the future since I am quite content with what I have (and also don't do photography for a living) and am comfortable using it with my personal side projects. Good luck!


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## timmy_650 (May 28, 2013)

My question is why do you want to go Medium Format? What is your canon gear lacking? Not able to make big enough prints?


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## risc32 (May 28, 2013)

I have no hands on exp with any medium format digital stuff, but a fair bit of medium/large format film. Even if it wasn't for the steep entry fees to get into MF digital i would suggest renting some stuff. The expense of renting some stuff will be very small compared to what you are likely going to be getting into with MF gear. Many of the things we take for granted with canon/nikon etc smaller sensor stuff just isn't there for medium format.


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## jeffabbyben (May 28, 2013)

You should definitely get one from the dealer to try out before you buy. Phase will send one out for you to try and I would suspect Hassy will do the same. Here is a Zack Arias blog post about how he ended up choosing his Phase One. 

http://zackarias.com/for-photographers/gear-gadgets/why-i-moved-to-medium-format-phase-one-iq140-review/

By the way the 645DF+ with the IQ 160 is magic.


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## privatebydesign (May 28, 2013)

DO NOT take out a loan to buy a MF system unless you have a 100% signed contract for work that requires it and has high enough billings to support it. 

If you just want to play with a system and explore its look and potential get a sub $1,000 MF film kit, however there is nothing the first couple of generations of digital MF backs can do that a D800E can't do, absolutely nothing. So short of a $40,000 investment you are not going to see anything particularly different, even then the differences are subtle, they are absolutely there, but they are very subtle.

Renting is a great way to dip your foot in the water and I know several pros that only rent when they have a job that would benefit from using one, this means you only have to pay when there is work to pay for it and you can keep up with the ever changing, and ever spiraling price of, the latest and greatest digital MF sensors.


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## Neopulse (May 28, 2013)

Thanks for letting me know. Saw the Zack Arias video.... still doesn't convince me to be honest. A bunch of stuff he does with the camera you eventually will do it and better via post processing on a MUCH bigger screen. Then there's the sensor cleaning thing, yeah it is "easier," but doesn't kill me to clean my sensor. Plus the fact of losing (or getting robbed) an expensive camera like that isn't worth it. Already got robbed once and lost $10,000 in the blink of an eye almost. So this would be far worse on one's wallet. I'd rather spent the money on studio equipment or other things like props then on that camera. But of course, if you're job really is that demanding and pays for it easily then by all means, go for it, let us know.


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## jeffabbyben (May 28, 2013)

Neopulse said:


> Thanks for letting me know. Saw the Zack Arias video.... still doesn't convince me to be honest.



I definitely agree with you that I wouldn't by a Phase one medium format because Zack did. In his write up he went over the reasons that he chose his current system which brought out a few points the OP should consider. I am more than sure that the people who bought Hassy were very happy with their purchase as well. Only way to know what is the right one for you is to try them out for yourself. Fortunately both companies offer the try before buy option.


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## M.ST (May 28, 2013)

The big question is, if you really need an expensive and heavy mid format camera for your work. If you don´t have a lot of contracts or you can get a lot of well paid jobs => forget it.

If you are in the fine arts and fashion business and earn a lot of money I can highly recommend my main camera H5D-60 with the 80 mm lens (and other lenses). 

If you can´t pay the price for it, the H5D-40 or H5D-50 do a good job too.

For image editing you need a very fast computer and big HD´s. RAW-Files are around 90 MB and TIFF-Files around 180 MB.

My advice: Rent a Hasselblad for a few days an try it out.

A lot of people that don´t own and don´t know what you can do with a mid format camera recommend the Nikon D800E. Forget the stupid posts. The D800E is a big step away from the image quality of a H5D-60 but the camera is affordable and very good for the price you pay for it.


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## privatebydesign (May 28, 2013)

M.ST said:


> A lot of people that don´t own and don´t know what you can do with a mid format camera recommend the Nikon D800E. Forget the stupid posts. The D800E is a big step away from the image quality of a H5D-60 but the camera is affordable and very good for the price you pay for it.



If that was directed at me then you need to reread my post. I said you'll need to spend $40,000 to see a difference, the yet to be available H5D-60 is $43,000, I also didn't compare the D800E to the newest generation of digital MF backs, I specifically compared it to the first couple of generations of MF digital backs, the kinds that go for $10,000-20,000, there is nothing you can do with them that you can't do with a D800E, absolutely nothing.


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## Sporgon (May 28, 2013)

My issue with digital MF is that whilst with film there was a significant increase in quality, there was a relatively small increase in cost. Also 35mm film was only something like 22% of the area of 6 x 7 film.

With the latest digital we may have, under certain situation, a very subtle improvement in 'quality', but the difference in cost is huge, so there is no comparison with the quality uplift achieved with MF film, but with up to a 10X increase in cost, not to mention lack of flexibility; more important to some than others. Also when compared the larger digital MF, FF is actually still 54% of the area.

I have a pal who shoots portrait work the whole time. His work is excellent and he used Hasselblad, but he shoots digital MF just because he wants to, rather than needs to.

If I was going to set up for studio work I think I would try a 1Dx matched with the best Canon portrait lenses and see how I got on. The reason I would try the 1Dx is that I think its tonal graduation is the best on FF, and give it a fighting chance against MF. I don't accept the 'printing big. issue on mp, a 1Dx would go as big as you'd need to go.

Then I'd buy a boat with what I'd saved.


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## RLPhoto (May 28, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> M.ST said:
> 
> 
> > A lot of people that don´t own and don´t know what you can do with a mid format camera recommend the Nikon D800E. Forget the stupid posts. The D800E is a big step away from the image quality of a H5D-60 but the camera is affordable and very good for the price you pay for it.
> ...



Except true flash sync a 1/1000th, get great movement's with bellow's not having the sensor deep in a body, EZ sensor cleaning, superior IQ, and a sense of seriousness with clientele. 

Now is it worth 40,000$? Sure, if you got the cash. if not, 35mm is ok.


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## privatebydesign (May 28, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> Except true flash sync a 1/1000th, get great movement's with bellow's not having the sensor deep in a body, EZ sensor cleaning, superior IQ, and a sense of seriousness with clientele.
> 
> Now is it worth 40,000$? Sure, if you got the cash. if not, 35mm is ok.



Well a leaf shutter might sync at 1/1000, but you don't get full power there. 

Tilt angles are dependent on focal length, a MF body needs more tilt for the same effect, having said that anybody really serious about tilt isn't using either, they are using backs on monorails and technical cameras.

I have never had an issue cleaning a 135 format sensor. Apparently some people have issues though I can't imagine why.

The first couple of generations on MF digital backs (as I keep saying) do not have an IQ advantage over a D800E. Indeed many early MF digital backs had sensors little bigger than the 135 format anyway.

As for seriousness, I don't believe that is an genuine reason, if it is it is just showing an insecurity in the photographer. Do Vanity Fair not take Annie Leibovitz seriously because she uses a 1Ds MkIII most of the time? Hi end pros are judged on style and output, just look at Terry Richardson.


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## ksagomonyants (May 28, 2013)

I've never owned any medium format cameras although I'd love to some day, so maybe my comment is a little naive. I thought whether it's better for you to get something like Mamiya 645 and a digital back? I know it isn't a true medium format but in this case you will be able to shoot digital and film (if you wish). And in addition, you aren't stuck with the same camera, as you can sell the digital back once it becomes outdated and get a new advanced one. Or get a Pentax 645D, again not a true medium format but much more affordable. Especially if you aren't planning to print huge photographs.


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## RLPhoto (May 28, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Except true flash sync a 1/1000th, get great movement's with bellow's not having the sensor deep in a body, EZ sensor cleaning, superior IQ, and a sense of seriousness with clientele.
> ...



Don't be naive.

http://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/Leaf-Shutter-Lenses.aspx - Sync up to actually 1/1600th. That alone is simply a reason for shooting MF.

MF sensor is way, way easier to clean. It's just like right there.

Extreme Tilt shift movement's can be done that a 35mm cam could only dream of. King of product photography. (well maybe LF could do better.) The sensor isn't buried deep in a body.

And yes, the IQ is better on MF. 

Done. End of story, this is why people shoot MF.


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## privatebydesign (May 28, 2013)

> "Don't be naive."



Hah, before you call me that go check the T1 times for your studio strobes, after that go and learn how a leaf shutter works; then reconcile the two at 1/1600. It can be done, but not at full power, just like I said.

As for tilt, the TS-E 17mm has 8º of tilt, that has crop factor to the Hasselblad of around 2. The Hasselblad HTS has 10º so 5º equivalent, the Canon has more effective tilt than the Hasselblad. Technical cameras can do extreme shifting, they also tend to have longer focal lengths so need more anyway, but few people need that and the OP showed no interest in it.

IQ, as I said, yes MF is better with the latest for sure, but first and second generation MF digital backs are not better than the D800E.


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## kennykodak (May 28, 2013)

i sold my Hasselblad digital camera gear and am doing just fine with Canons. i had more money in that camera than my first house. got to say though, it made an incredible passport photo on a slow day.


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## privatebydesign (May 28, 2013)

kennykodak said:


> i sold my Hasselblad digital camera gear and am doing just fine with Canons. i had more money in that camera than my first house. got to say though, *it made an incredible passport photo on a slow day.*


 ;D


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## RLPhoto (May 28, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> > "Don't be naive."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You have no common sense at all sir. A 35mm cam won't even sync period @ 1/1600th w/o losing massive amount of power. PERIOD! Done deal. To argue otherwise is to ignore that hundred of thousands of shoots have leveraged this advantage over 35mm.

A technical camera rig is a legitimate and important use of a MF system. Can't be ignored, Alex koloskov agreed and he owns a D800. It will not replace is hasselblad, but having the ability to use a system this way is a valid option 35mm can't offer.

If your considering a MF system, $$$$$ usually isn't an issue but all this above + IQ.


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## privatebydesign (May 28, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > > "Don't be naive."
> ...



Dude,


I know the limitations of my various systems, that is why I own 135 up to 6x9 format *systems*, you are the one that keeps making spurious claims that I feel obliged to swat. I know you are wrong most of the time, I am just trying to offer more accurate information for those less well experienced and impressionable.

So onto your three latest "points".

1/ I never said any different, I said you don't get full power sync at 1/1600, guess what? You don't, but for some reason you decided to tell me I was wrong. As for getting shots now, I am seeing more and more pros ganging improbable numbers of 600EX-RT's to achieve good illumination in daylight at up to 1/8000.

2/ A technical camera despite its uses, can very easily be ignored by the vast majority of MF shooters, and the OP didn't mention the speciality in the post. We could just as easily speculate on panoramic cameras with scanning lenses, which he also didn't ask about......

3/ The OP specifically stated taking out a loan to buy a camera, obviously if you had read that then it would have become apparent that "$$$$$$" absolutely are an issue.

Other than that I agree with everything you said


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## Halfrack (May 28, 2013)

So for the OP, MF makers are much more demo oriented than we're used to, the folks who sell them are also a notch or two above normal camera store employees. They have events, like the PhaseOne World Tour where they take these tools out and you can learn about them. I saw one 2 weeks ago that was a Mamiya/Leaf and I was meaning to get over just to play with one. Personally I'd love a Pentax 645D, but I would get shot before the charge cleared my credit card. 

The biggest issue is that if there isn't a local retailer you can visit, it's really hard to get a bit of hands on with the systems.

http://www.phaseone.com/en/FooterMenu/Events.aspx
http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/events_usa.html


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## sanjosedave (May 29, 2013)

Talk to your CPA to determine what level of revenue you need to support a DMF of at least $50k


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## deleteme (May 29, 2013)

The best advice is RENT,RENT,RENT.

This is very expensive gear and you want to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is what will make you happy.

There are real differences from your 35mm gear. Cleaning the sensor is not a major attraction to MF IMO.

While you will see a jump in IQ you may be surprised how it compares to properly prepped 35DSLR files. 
There has been some discussion above about the ability to do extreme tilts and shifts in MF. While this is possible with a technical camera and a MF back, it is not true for the Hasselblad and Mamiya bodies. Further, if you do use a technical camera you will be working very slowly and will be applying correction layers to compensate for the unusual color shifts and falloff peculiar to the backs on tech cameras.

The real risk IMO is if you buy, you will be itching to upgrade in few years when they bring out the new sensors. Granted it is just the back but it is still real money.
If you are a pro you will need a spare back and a spare body. 

So renting may be a better option than EVER owning.


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## Neopulse (May 29, 2013)

Halfrack said:


> So for the OP, MF makers are much more demo oriented than we're used to, the folks who sell them are also a notch or two above normal camera store employees. They have events, like the PhaseOne World Tour where they take these tools out and you can learn about them. I saw one 2 weeks ago that was a Mamiya/Leaf and I was meaning to get over just to play with one. Personally I'd love a Pentax 645D, but I would get shot before the charge cleared my credit card.
> 
> The biggest issue is that if there isn't a local retailer you can visit, it's really hard to get a bit of hands on with the systems.
> 
> ...




Agree with wanting to own a 645D (much cheaper than when it first came out). It has a few minor setbacks like the ridiculously slow flash-sync speed (would be for still life, and still portraits) and the 98% coverage optical viewfinder (like the 5D MK II had). And also not so sure about the lenses they have for it. Apparently only found 3 when surfing. But it is a serious still camera. I like it a lot. Been watching some videos on it and seen huge photos produced by it. Still though I think the D800/E is an amazing camera in comparison to it, but this kind of quality isn't bad at all. I personally like this model if I ever took the step to medium format for the first time. Although I'm no expert in the area of MF camera, chances are the other MFs might be "far superior" to this particular model. But I think for what I like doing this is enough.


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## Bennymiata (May 29, 2013)

It may be easy to clean the sensor in a MF digital camera, but it's also very easy to scratch them.
Check out the sensors on rented MF cameras to see what I mean.

Just one little slip when puting the back on the body can mean a very expensive deep scratch on the sensor.

One other thing, MF cameras are relatively slow to operate comapred to a FF D-SLR, and if your work allows you to work slowly and deliberately, that's fine, but if you think that you can use them for events and just click away, you are sadly mistaken.


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## Kelt0901 (May 29, 2013)

As a very happy and contented Canon user, I added medium format, I now have both and understand the good and bad of both. I went with the Mamiya/ Phase 1 option, this I considered the better option. It’s easy to get started on a budget, go to eBay and check out a Mamiya 645d [i, ii, iii] and a used ZD back or other. This option cost me A$4,800.00, the shots are fabulous quality, however, not suitable for sports or grab shots. Medium format is a dog to lug around; I use it mostly for studio work.

*I elected not to go the Hasselblad route*, the newer ones have a propriety digital back interface and you can only use Hasselblad digital backs. With the Mamiya/ Phase1 solution, you can use many available backs i.e. Mamiya, Leaf and Phase1; there also are others. Check out eBay. I am a long time Mamiya user (46 years) and have resurrected my RB67 Pro SD and lenses, my ZD digital back with an adapter mounts on the RB67. 
I like the system so much that, I have just upgraded to the 645 DF body and soon a DM back. I have modified my Horseman view camera to be able to mount my Mamiya 645 DF body + ZD digital back and my RB67 KL series lenses. This system is a beast but, fabulous Macro shots with much swing, tilt and shift, also the best solution for panorama stitching.
5Dii, + L series, G9, EOS M, 645i, 645 DF + Mamiya lenses, RB67 Pro SD + KL series lenses, Horseman view body.


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## Kelt0901 (May 29, 2013)

Bennymiata said:


> It may be easy to clean the sensor in a MF digital camera, but it's also very easy to scratch them.
> Check out the sensors on rented MF cameras to see what I mean.
> 
> Just one little slip when puting the back on the body can mean a very expensive deep scratch on the sensor.
> ...




As a Mamiya user with a ZD Digital back, I certainly agree. I did scratch the back glass, it’s not the sensor, it lies underneath, the exposed glass is the IR cut filter and is user replaceable, the replacement cost me A$400.00 on eBay. FYI, an IR photo filter can replace the IR cut filter for, I am told, fabulous IR shots, I have one and yet to test it out.


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## RLPhoto (May 29, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



1. M00t because your missing the point again. 35MM can't sync up to that point. Thus a advantage for MF, and not for 35mm. You say" well, @ 1/1600th you don't get full power on a leaf shutter, while you forget that a FP shutter won't sync at all unless aided.

2. It relevent because it add another tool that 35mm doesn't do. Its very dumb to assume he'll never end up doing this. Panoramic cameras? lol what are you smoking? he's discussing MF cams.

3. If your considering a MF system you should be at the point where $$$$$ isn't an issue but all of the above is. 

You read yet do not get understanding.


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## Neopulse (May 29, 2013)

Forgot to add in my post a point of view of mine. The Pentax 645D feels like a "hybrid" to me. It's like a cross between a 35mm sensor and a medium format size (it's about 33mm x 44mm it's sensor and a medium format is about 40mm x 53.5mm) . It has better ISO performance than most medium formats (like Phase One) and also resolution wise it's more than most DSLRs. And pricing, not even worth mentioning.


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