# Possibility of EOS M Announcement at CP+? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 14, 2016)

```
<p>We’re told that there is a strong possibility that we’ll see some kind of an EOS M announcement for CP+ next month in Tokyo. The show runs from February 25, 2016 until February 28, 2016. The source said if there is an announcement for the show, it’ll be for the “prosumer” EOS M camera. No specifications were given for such a camera.</p>
<p>We’re told that it’s even more likely is that we’ll see multiple EF-M lens announcements for CP+.</p>
<p>There’s a buzz out there that Canon will make a big splash at this show, as we’re also expecting that the EOS-1D X Mark II will make an appearance.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## dppaskewitz (Jan 14, 2016)

Silly me. I already have two M prosumer models. Where is the real one?


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## scrup (Jan 14, 2016)

Is this even worthy of a post? No specs or anything. Need some new sources if you want to keep visitors returning.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 14, 2016)

Canon originally claimed to have designed the "M" for the Japanese market, so it makes sense to announce it at CP+. 

Although it seems to be a fairly good camera, the lack of ability to tether it to my PC and operate it for product photography stopped me from buying one when they were almost gave them away. It would be nice to see one with most of the features that even a entry level DSLR has.


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## brad-man (Jan 14, 2016)

;D


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## rrcphoto (Jan 14, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> <p>We’re told that there is a strong possibility that we’ll see some kind of an EOS M announcement for CP+ next month in Tokyo. The show runs from February 25, 2016 until February 28, 2016. The source said if there is an announcement for the show, it’ll be for the “prosumer” EOS M camera. No specifications were given for such a camera.</p>
> <p>We’re told that it’s even more likely is that we’ll see multiple EF-M lens announcements for CP+.</p>
> <p>There’s a buzz out there that Canon will make a big splash at this show, as we’re also expecting that the EOS-1D X Mark II will make an appearance.</p>
> <span id="pty_trigger"></span>



doesn't surprise me at all.

Canon Japan's head honcho a year ago stated they wanted to be #1 domestically for mirrorless by the end of 2016.

So canon's going to have to do a splash. CP+ makes perfect sense for the Japan marketplace.

however that market is also dominated by bargain basement cameras - so anyone expecting a full frame mirrorless that doesn't sell worth dog___ in japan .. don't hold your breath.

I'm thinking a G5x like EOS-M .. EVF + fully articulated screen, maybe the 70D sensor (I really detest the 24MP one that is in the M3) which would make the powershot and the EOS-M lineup pretty well match up.

G9x - M10
G7x - M3
G5x - ??

the lenses could be interesting though. I'd expect at least a 50mm and hopefully a macro. I'd really like a compact 18-125mm or even a 15-85mm.


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## jebrady03 (Jan 14, 2016)

Canon will have to do something pretty spectacular and at a reasonable price to get me to jump on board. I owned the M (twice, actually) and it just didn't do it for me.


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## AvTvM (Jan 14, 2016)

A higher end EOS M body is most urgently needed. It better be fully competitive with upcoming Sony A6100 ... Sensor, AF capabilities, top-notch EVF built-in (same as in G5X would be OK), higher capacity battery, RT wireless flash transmitter built in, EOS user interface and firmware, not powershot toy store. Price not higher than 70D and I'll buy one. 

As far as lenses go, EF-M is great already. Really, very compact and very affordable. Nothing else needed, except a short moderately fast portrait tele - EF-M 85/2.4 IS STM or so. 50 not needed, EF 40/2.8 STM and 50/1.8 STM perform very well.


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## MadHungarian (Jan 15, 2016)

Presumably this is why the SL2 may have disappeared? The EOS-M camp in Canon won out in internal political battles with the SL1 camp? The problem is that I doubt even Canon has enough resources to adequately support three different lens families.


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## cellomaster27 (Jan 15, 2016)

I almost snatched the m3 for 149 or whatever ridiculous price. but beyond that, it's not a camera that people want to buy with all the other options out there. namely those on this forum. I'm surprised that the m has survived so far.. it must be a brand thing. has to be, at this point. lucky for Canon and not so for the consumer. hope to see a competitive model (specs and pricing) soon


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## preppyak (Jan 15, 2016)

thetechhimself said:


> What would be really nice, 4K. And, if launched alongside the 1DX II, considering Nikon just did 4K on the D500; they might do 4K on a prosumer EOS M.
> 
> 1K (or less) for an APS-C 4K Mirrorless would be a true GH4 killer, especially if Canon can do an on chip A/D conversion for higher DR, and, if they can do better than 8-bit spec for it.


Seeing as Canon hasnt put 4k in any interchangeable lens camera below the $5k price point, I can hardly see them doing that with a <$1k camera. UNless they are putting 4k in every camera they release from here on out...

And the notion that any M camera would be a GH4 killer is laughable. Will it have S-log. Will it have the ability to output SDI? Will Canon support it with a whole new line of accessories?

Panasonic has built up goodwill over a few years in the cine market; first with the GH2 hacks, then he GH3 and then GH4. They took innovation by a 3rd party, upped their game to beat it, then upped their game again to shock people with 4k at that price point. What has Canon done for the prosumer cine market? Kept delivering the same garbage codec that makes 1080 look soft. Took forever to deliver 1080/60. All while Magic Lantern showed they could have matched Panasonic all along (or beat them)


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## ashmadux (Jan 15, 2016)

> I'm thinking a G5x like EOS-M .. EVF + fully articulated screen, maybe the 70D sensor (I really detest the 24MP one that is in the M3) which would make the powershot and the EOS-M lineup pretty well match up.




THIS THIS THIS. G5 form factor rocks, and if that can get an asp-c sensor, im so in. 

Also, yeah, the 24mp sensor in the m3- which im poised to return - is a super grainy non upgrade from previous sensors. SO far, NOT impressed at all.

Think ill return the m3 and buy a einstein.

ps- luv the g5.


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## HaroldC3 (Jan 15, 2016)

And when they do come out with it and charge $899, everyone will complain that they can get the a6000 for half the price.


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## Woody (Jan 15, 2016)

I want to see an EF-M 35 f/1.4 lens before I decide if Canon's prosumer EOS-M is worth investing in.


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## eosuser1234 (Jan 15, 2016)

I expect to see a full frame mirrorless, with EF-M Native mount. When used with EF-M Lenses, or EF-S lenses via converter, the camera will automatically crop to APS-C. When used with the EF-M to EF converter and EF lenses the camera then uses the whole sensor. 4k video, electronic shutter with flash syncing to 1/500. A whole lot of AF points, and class leading focusing speed. They are probably looking to compete with Sony in Japan, not Panasonic. By showing people that their system is better than anything m4/3, they can make people buy up into EF-M and EF systems, or use their existing EF lenses. Its not just about 4k to Canon, but more about getting people away from buying into the m4/3 system. The camera will be pricey, but expect 800 dollar cheaper than comparable Sony mirrorless.


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## AvTvM (Jan 15, 2016)

I'd like to get one, but do not see a FF MILC system from Canon in the near future. Not enough suffering yet for their FF DSLRs. Such a launch would also be preceded by a lot of advance noise & rumors beforehand, during testing of various prototypes by quite a number of Canon associated pros/ambassadors.

At CP we'll hopefully get an EOS M4 "Pro" body. Of course with APS-C sensor. At best it will be roughly on par with upcoming Sony A6100. At worst it will not even be fully on par with 3 year old Sony A6000.
* Built-in EVF (like G5X) - yes
* Improved AF system - yes. How much better? Unknown. New version DP-AF that finally delivers some speed ?
* better sensor than M3 - yes. at the very best the one in 7D II 
* 4k? Don't think so. 

As far as "new EF-M" lenses go ... no idea. Are they really going to bring that EF-M 55-300mm f/4.5-6.3 DO IS patent? If not, it might be a 60/2.8 or f/3.5 Macro lens. Or a 18-135/3.5-5.6 or 18-200/4.5-6.3 zoom.


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## nhz (Jan 15, 2016)

MadHungarian said:


> Presumably this is why the SL2 may have disappeared? The EOS-M camp in Canon won out in internal political battles with the SL1 camp? The problem is that I doubt even Canon has enough resources to adequately support three different lens families.


I don't think so ... the SL2 uses the same lenses as the Rebel, xxD and 7D2 cameras and I don't see these being discontinued in the near future. 

However, some extra EF-S lenses would not hurt. Support for brighter WA zooms or primes is still very minimal (much the same as for Nikon DX cameras) and they could also use a longer lens with quality optics above the 55-250STM.


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## jebrady03 (Jan 15, 2016)

HaroldC3 said:


> And when they do come out with it and charge $899, everyone will complain that they can get the a6000 for half the price.



And rightly so, to be honest. When you're asking people to buy into a new mount, EVERYTHING is your competitor. And the sad part here is that it will likely be more expensive, and less of a performer than the A6000. The rumored A6100 will likely SMOKE it and probably be priced on par, or even cheaper. All of this is my guess, based on the recent past.


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## drob (Jan 15, 2016)

They better announce something soon...so many intriguing/advanced offerings and announcements from Nikon, Fuji, and Sony...Canon, once again seems to be lagging behind.


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## Bernard (Jan 15, 2016)

ashmadux said:


> Also, yeah, the 24mp sensor in the m3- which im poised to return - is a super grainy non upgrade from previous sensors. SO far, NOT impressed at all.



That's not what I've seen at all with the M3. Mine barely shows any grain at 1600 (never need to go any higher), and it's got great sharpness. Basically, I'm getting 50% more pixels with absolutely no down-side.

What raw converter are you using? Have you tried others just to double-check?


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## sunnyVan (Jan 15, 2016)

Mature products like 5D and xxD series get refreshed every few years. The M gets an update almost every year. By Canon standard, they are already being relatively responsive to market need. Canon moves very slowly compared to Sony and Fuji. Should anyone be surprised that an elephant moves slower than a cat? Not defending Canon. It's just a fact that an established company moves cautiously. 

The main and the only attraction of the M system is the compatibility with Canon lenses and flashes. If this means a great deal to you, then the M is a great secondary/backup system. If anyone is willing to make huge investment, Fuji is far more desirable than Sony, just for the quality of lenses alone, not to mention ergonomics and look.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 15, 2016)

sunnyVan said:


> Mature products like 5D and xxD series get refreshed every few years. The M gets an update almost every year. By Canon standard, they are already being relatively responsive to market need. Canon moves very slowly compared to Sony and Fuji. Should anyone be surprised that an elephant moves slower than a cat? Not defending Canon. It's just a fact that an established company moves cautiously.



People also tend to forget just how many camera lines canon has - there's a finite amount you can do in a limited time across such a breadth.

canon has the 1 series, 5, 6, 7, xxD, 2 rebels, SLx, M

each with it's own characteristics and development curve.

Fuji has what? Sony has basically abandons anything that isn't it's latest shiny toy.

To expect canon to move as perceived quickly as another company that is simply focusing on a niche market is pretty difficult.

there's only so many resources you can throw at a problem.


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## drob (Jan 15, 2016)

A refresh rate of every 4 to 5 years is to long to wait to be competitive in an ever changing market.


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## AvTvM (Jan 15, 2016)

well, if one starts with a SUPERIOR product they can wait, until competition starts to catch up. Apparently that is what Sony has been able to do - rumor has it, that they delayed the A6000 update twice already during 2015 ... "for lack of competition". But now it seems to be coming. Sony Alpharumors quotes "availability in markets in March 2016". 

Canon however started their mirrorless system with the EOS M, a product INFERIOR to competition and priced higher than most competitive products. We know the outcome: fire sale. After that Canon brought annual updates M2, M3 - each time still shy of the goal by quite a bit. Still inferior in many key aspects. Sensor/IQ, AF speed and tracking capability, lack of (built-in) viewfinder, or Powershot user interface instead of an EOS one. To date, Canon has not offered one truly competitive M body ... yet. 

Canon did offer what i consider a very smart and attractive range of EF-M lenses however. Small, light, inexpensive and optically anywhere from "good to excellent". Only 4 lenses needed to cover 11mm to 200mm. Only a compact, moderately fast short/portrait tele lens is missing. Any longer focal lengths or big aperture or otherwise specialized lenses would be so big, that one can as well use available EF/EF-S lenses via adapter. 

Fuji X-lenses on the other hand are as retro-styled fashion items and more importantly: almost as big, heavy and expensive as Canon FF lenses. Just look at that new Fuji 100-400/4.5-5.6 godzilla lens: despite covering APS-C image circle only it manages to be LONGER than the Canon EF 100-400 II, not much lighter and nearly as expensive! Totally ridiculous. 

Sony lenses are either expensive and optically not very good, or come with a Zeiss label, making them optically a bit better but extremely expensive. Actually, if it were not for that haphazard lens Sony E-mount offering, I would have gotten myself an A6000 already. 

Samsung failed in pricing, marketing and as a company - not necessarily at the product level. 

The rest is "no-go zone" a.k.a "m43 land", populated by a huge mess of lenses from all sorts of makers and either video folks (Panasonic) or a few stills shooters far and between, who are willing to pay high prices for quarter-format sensors and lenses (Olympus).


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## rrcphoto (Jan 15, 2016)

I wonder if people are just look at what THEY want and not really looking at this from a Canon perspective.

the US market is still a dumb market to be going full bore into. Seriously. the Asian market seems to be picking up steam... SOMEONE shipped one crapton of mirrorless into Asia in November. it will be interesting to see if that was just a blip.

The domestic market for mirrorless is dominated by the small, compact and usually discounted or cheap cameras under 100,000 yen (around 850 USD).

it stands to reason that even if canon makes a "nicer" "prosumer" camera that it's going to be south of $1,000.

it's NOT going to have 4K, it's not going to be a A6100 competitor because the A6xxx series doesn't really sell in Japan, nor does the A7 series.

it's going to be small, hopefully the powershot people get their act together. it's not going to be a world beater, because it doesn't have to in this market.

as much as camera store TV likes to cry about cameras, it's almost a curse any innovative mirrorless doesn't sell worth crap.

top selling MILC in japan in December? the M2 the M3 was #6. The M3 was #2 in November, with the M2 around #5.

surrounding the EOS-M's in Japan is the E-PL6 and the GF7 cameras.

the A6000 hardly breaks into the top 5 in a month.

November 2015:
1 E-PL6
2 EOS-M3
3 GF-7
4 E-PL7
5 EOS-M2
6 J5
7 A6000
8 EOS-M3
9 GF-7
10 E-OM10

December 2015:
1. EOS-M2
2. E-PL6
3. Nikon J5
4. EOS-M2
5. E-PL6
6. EOS-M3
7. E-PL7
8. A6000
9. A6000
10. Nikon J5

before someone cries and says but the M2 is on firesale - well guess what? so's just about everyone on the top 5 list.


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## AvTvM (Jan 15, 2016)

if this were true - only small, cheap MILCS sell well in Japan - then I'd expect to see the CHEAP and SMALL Canon EOS M10 on top or very near the of these charts. Since it is not even in the top 10 ... i seriously doubt these lists.


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## AvTvM (Jan 15, 2016)

thetechhimself said:


> Existing Canon EF-M optics are very nice, minus the lack of native portrait optics, which pains me every time I have to use my EF to EF-M adapter as it adds weight and bulk which defeat the purpose of the M.



A compact "pancake" EF-M 85/2.4 IS STM with IQ like the 22/2.0 and similary inexpensive EF-M pricing would be great. Until Canon makes it, I am using EF 50/1.8 STM with adapter. Still fairly light and not too bulky.


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## crashpc (Jan 15, 2016)

Can live with original M for two more years. I hope they do something with it. Especially focusing speed and sensor. Cash waiting, and there will be no purchase untill they solve this.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 15, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> if this were true - only small, cheap MILCS sell well in Japan - then I'd expect to see the CHEAP and SMALL Canon EOS M10 on top or very near the of these charts. Since it is not even in the top 10 ... i seriously doubt these lists.



in actual fact canon doesn't seem to be promoting the M10 much in Japan yet. and with the M2 selling and competing against the E-PL6, it doesn't need to yet.

however it's nice that you doubt these lists, I'm sure your massive expertise and also your data collection is far superior than bcn's who track around 50% of all sales in japan.


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## Random Orbits (Jan 15, 2016)

A compact "pancake" EF-M 85/2.4 IS STM with IQ like the 22/2.0 and similary inexpensive EF-M pricing would be great. Until Canon makes it, I am using EF 50/1.8 STM with adapter. Still fairly light and not too bulky. 
[/quote]

Might be a tall stack.


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## AvTvM (Jan 15, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > if this were true - only small, cheap MILCS sell well in Japan - then I'd expect to see the CHEAP and SMALL Canon EOS M10 on top or very near the of these charts. Since it is not even in the top 10 ... i seriously doubt these lists.
> ...



sorry, no insult intended. But tracking only about 50% of sales does not convince me to put more trust into the data. Also, what do the many double entries in the lists mean? Body only vs. with kit or what? If so, it should be clearly indicated. So again, to me this looks a bit shoddy.


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## jebrady03 (Jan 15, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



Looks better than the data you provided. :-/


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## Ryan_ (Jan 15, 2016)

Assuming a late February announcement, how soon could this get released?


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## ahsanford (Jan 15, 2016)

I fall for it every time.

- A


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## dppaskewitz (Jan 15, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> I fall for it every time.
> 
> - A



+1 (And this is what I was trying to say). 

The M3 is close: add an integral electronic viewfinder (no more fiddling with the separate one), a decent menu system (does it really need to revert from remote mode when I take it off the tripod and turn in off to save battery?? and can we get back magnified focusing from the M?) and a back button focus that I can find with my thumb and I'm there.


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## ahsanford (Jan 15, 2016)

dppaskewitz said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > I fall for it every time.
> ...



...and a few native EF-M lenses with USM, please.

If you only shoot stills, there is nothing 'prosumer' about STM. 

- A


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## WillT (Jan 15, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > if this were true - only small, cheap MILCS sell well in Japan - then I'd expect to see the CHEAP and SMALL Canon EOS M10 on top or very near the of these charts. Since it is not even in the top 10 ... i seriously doubt these lists.
> ...



How do you guys come up with this? Canon is losing money. And Japan is such a small portion of it sales company wide and in their imaging business. They are counting on US and Euro markets for strong earnings not Japan


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## tcmatthews (Jan 15, 2016)

I am sending my EOS M and Nex6 in to Amazon as trade in. I will miss the 22mm STM but I think I will just get m4/3 camera for a carry around camera. If I want more compact and I do m4/3 is a better option. If I want to stay APS-C I will just get an A6100 (or whatever it is) because I already have the lenses. Or jump ship to Fujifilm.

I do not think I will find what I want in any of the Canon mirrorless and I think I will just stick to the full frame lenses for Sony for now on.

The M3 was close but it is a moving target. I doubt they will ever get there. I am waiting for the Pen F and a new Sony before making any decisions.

But as for the EOS M line I am out.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 15, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...


are you kidding me? 50% of data surveyed is statistically very very accurate.


different kits and at times, colors depending on the camera.

I really didn't think it was necessary for me to translate each line item just to satisfy your burning curiousity.

but you are welcome to do so here:

http://bcnranking.jp/category/subcategory_0008.html

the fact of the matter remains, there's no A7 series AT all in the top 10. heck hardly in the top 50 of Japan's selling.

Smaller cameras, and cheaper cameras are selling better than others.

there's a good probability that a A6100 killer that does everything for $1200 won't sell worth squat in Japan, therefore, I could hardly see Canon really considering it - at this time.

Considering just how many downfalls the current EOS-M system has including the lenses and eco system to really support a top tier camera model on this mount.

keep it for what it is good at - small and cheap and that includes the lenses.


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## AvTvM (Jan 15, 2016)

WillT said:


> How do you guys come up with this? Canon is losing money.


no. up to now, Canon is profitable. Neuro will fill you in on the details, if you want.  ;D



WillT said:


> And Japan is such a small portion of it sales company wide and in their imaging business. They are counting on US and Euro markets for strong earnings not Japan.



I sure hope, they do. Especially in Europe sub-par mirrorless cameras do not sell well. While we don't think "bigger is always better", we do love "more refined" and higly functional products.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 15, 2016)

WillT said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



canon's losing money? really?
lol


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## lensgrabber (Jan 15, 2016)

I want fast focusing and at least 10FPS in the next M. M, M2, and M3 all fall miserably short. If rumors are true the A6100 will probably still Canon's thunder (again) in the mirrorless world.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 15, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> But tracking only about 50% of sales does not convince me to put more trust into the data.



What would convince you? Personally walking around and asking every resident of Japan what camera they bought? Athena and the Muses coming down from Olympus in Apollo's chariot to tell you?

See if a local college offers a course in statistics. I'd recommend _not_ telling the professor you believe sampling 50% of a population is unconvincing, at least if you hope to achieve passing marks. 




rrcphoto said:


> WillT said:
> 
> 
> > How do you guys come up with this? Canon is losing money...
> ...



It's sad that so many people believe their own opinions trump objective facts. Sad is the wrong word...pathetic is more appropriate.


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## davidmurray (Jan 15, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> A higher end EOS M body is most urgently needed..



Why?

Anyone wanting a good full frame camera will get an SLR.

Mirrorless is meritless unless they figure out how to make performance and quality on par with an actual good camera.


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## Luds34 (Jan 16, 2016)

tcmatthews said:


> I am sending my EOS M and Nex6 in to Amazon as trade in. I will miss the 22mm STM but I think I will just get m4/3 camera for a carry around camera. If I want more compact and I do m4/3 is a better option. If I want to stay APS-C I will just get an A6100 (or whatever it is) because I already have the lenses. Or jump ship to Fujifilm.
> 
> I do not think I will find what I want in any of the Canon mirrorless and I think I will just stick to the full frame lenses for Sony for now on.
> 
> ...



The M + 22mm is pretty tough to beat if one is going for the ultimate, compact kit while still having a good size sensor. But other then that, the M line is pretty lacking. I did end up going Fuji for my compact kit and have been quite satisfied. Only complaint, is while the Fuji glass is pretty awesome optically, it can be quite pricey!


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## scyrene (Jan 16, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> well, if one starts with a SUPERIOR product they can wait, until competition starts to catch up. Apparently that is what Sony has been able to do - rumor has it, that they delayed the A6000 update twice already during 2015 ... "for lack of competition". But now it seems to be coming. Sony Alpharumors quotes "availability in markets in March 2016".



This is interesting if true. It's the sort of behaviour that gets Canon a lot of stick round here. People jumping up and down and shouting 'but if they CAN do it, they MUST do it!' instead of looking at the underlying business decisions. I have mixed feelings myself, but it's refreshing to see another company fingered for it too.


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## Random Orbits (Jan 16, 2016)

Luds34 said:


> The M + 22mm is pretty tough to beat if one is going for the ultimate, compact kit while still having a good size sensor. But other then that, the M line is pretty lacking. I did end up going Fuji for my compact kit and have been quite satisfied. Only complaint, is while the Fuji glass is pretty awesome optically, it can be quite pricey!



+1. I got the original M with the 22 f/2 and added the other EF-M lenses (and the M3) over time, but the 22 f/2 is used the most -- nearly half the time. I used it the most when my DSLR was being serviced. The Ms could be more responsive and the native lenses are slow, but it's an ultracompact kit. I also got them at good prices, so I don't mind leaving it in an unattended jacket, etc.


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## tcmatthews (Jan 16, 2016)

davidmurray said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > A higher end EOS M body is most urgently needed..
> ...



I got a metabones IV EF - E T adapter for my A7II this week. Now all my Canon lenses work almost as good on the A7II as the 6D. The focus area is larger on the A7II. Other than tracking fast moving subjects ISO over 3200, and flash photography the A7II is just plain better. My 6D when in the box to Amazon along with the EOS M. 

I will just use my 7D II for everything the A7II is not good at.


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## jd7 (Jan 16, 2016)

scyrene said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > well, if one starts with a SUPERIOR product they can wait, until competition starts to catch up. Apparently that is what Sony has been able to do - rumor has it, that they delayed the A6000 update twice already during 2015 ... "for lack of competition". But now it seems to be coming. Sony Alpharumors quotes "availability in markets in March 2016".
> ...



If Sony had the a6100 ready to go, why wouldn't they just get it on sale and try to dominate that segment of the market and get users buying into their system (getting familiar with the system, buying lenses, etc)? Or another option might be, if the a6100 is a substantial upgrade from the a6000, release the a6100 at a higher price point (leaving the a6000 where it is) so Sony could take the extra mark up from the early adopters, and then when the competition heats up they cease selling the a6000 and drop the price on the a6000. From a business point of view, the idea Sony has had an a6100 ready to go but they haven't released it because of "lack of competition" seems very unlikely to me, at least if it's a substantial upgrade over the a6000.


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## tcmatthews (Jan 16, 2016)

jd7 said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



It is more likely the demand for the A7rII and A7sII were greater than expected. The a6000 is selling well so why not milk the video sells from the full frame sensors before releasing a 4K capable crop camera. Better to let is set in the oven longer and get the phase detection working with DSLR lenses and get other firmware issues sorted out. There is no competing product so no need to rush it out.

They need to get a better kit lens the power zoom sucks.


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## jebrady03 (Jan 16, 2016)

tcmatthews said:


> I got a metabones IV EF - E T adapter for my A7II this week. Now all my Canon lenses work almost as good on the A7II as the 6D.



Are you saying that from experience having thoroughly tested all of your lenses? Or from a press release and forum hype? I've seen quite a few people expect what you've stated, only to be thoroughly disappointed. From my understanding (and I'm just parroting what I've read), it works well for some lenses, and it's literally unusable (ie, it doesn't work) for others. If you haven't tested it yet in the situations that you commonly use it in, I'd hold off on shipping that box to Amazon.


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## sunnyVan (Jan 16, 2016)

tcmatthews said:


> davidmurray said:
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> 
> > AvTvM said:
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I have tried this route last year with an adapter to mate sony sensor with canon lenses. I eventually sold the a7 in a couple of months. Using an adapter occasionally is one thing. But if you plan on doing that every time it's a pain in the neck.


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## tcmatthews (Jan 16, 2016)

sunnyVan said:


> tcmatthews said:
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> 
> > davidmurray said:
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The A7II auto-focus is now way beyond what was in the A7. For my Canon 24f2.8 IS, 100L macro, 40STM, and 50STM the difference in autofocus speed between the 6D and A7II is imperceivable. I would say the STM lenses may actual auto focus faster on the Sony. When Sony added phase detect autofocus for DSLR (their own and third party) it really changed the entire equation. It worked so well I removed the Sony FE 70-200 f4 from the list of lenses I plan on buying near term if at all. 

I am trading them in to get some Sony native glass for the A7II. I do not need a 6D right now most of what I used it for the Canon 7D II is better at.

Before the autofocus upgrade it was a pain in the neck. Shooting adapted manual lenses was enjoyable. But the short focus of modern autofocus not fun for manual focus, and forget autofocus it was to slow.


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## Bernard (Jan 16, 2016)

This thread is a funny read so far. So many people are "dumping brand X and going to brand Y" every six months! Sales should be booming.

Question: are you sure that your camera's features are what's holding you back? Will 5% faster AF, or an extra 0.3 stops dynamic range really make you happy? Honest answers only please.

As for myself, I like the M1 and M3 for what they are. Small, light, cheap, incredibly sturdy, with great photo qualities (if you like Canon's colours, many do), and good video. I don't expect them to act like SLRs, because I've got SLRs. I don't want them to have the longest specs sheets, because I know from experience that will detract from operational coherence (making it harder to do what I really want, namely take pictures and make videos).


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## tcmatthews (Jan 16, 2016)

Bernard said:


> This thread is a funny read so far. So many people are "dumping brand X and going to brand Y" every six months! Sales should be booming.
> 
> Question: are you sure that your camera's features are what's holding you back? Will 5% faster AF, or an extra 0.3 stops dynamic range really make you happy? Honest answers only please.
> 
> As for myself, I like the M1 and M3 for what they are. Small, light, cheap, incredibly sturdy, with great photo qualities (if you like Canon's colours, many do), and good video. I don't expect them to act like SLRs, because I've got SLRs. I don't want them to have the longest specs sheets, because I know from experience that will detract from operational coherence (making it harder to do what I really want, namely take pictures and make videos).



The M1 drove me crazy. I want a mode dial, three control dials, viewfinder and the ability to turn off the touch screen and never use it again. The M3 was close on paper but I have never seen one in person. I have found that Olympus, fujifilm, Panasonic, and Sony all produce mirrorless cameras closer to what I want. I can also just drive down the street and look at them. Never underestimate market presence.

As for dumping brand X and going to brand Y every six months I don't understand them either. For me it is a slow deliberate decision. I have been dual Canon /Sony sense 2012. Sony in now making decisions easier given how well their cameras work with Canon lenses.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 16, 2016)

tcmatthews said:


> The M1 drove me crazy. I want a mode dial, three control dials, viewfinder and the ability to turn off the touch screen and never use it again.



It's obvious just by looking at pictures of the EOS M on the Internet that it lacks many of those features. Why did you buy one?


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## WillT (Jan 16, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> rrcphoto said:
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> 
> > WillT said:
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YTD Canon stock is -8.23%
3-YR Canon stock is -27.47%
Cash on hand is down 215 billion yen

pathetic...


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 16, 2016)

WillT said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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> 
> > rrcphoto said:
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Spoken with all the business acumen of belly button lint. :

Gross profit? Up over the last 5 years. Net income? Up over the last 5 years. Net income per share attributable to shareholders? Up over the last 5 years. Total assets? Up over the last 5 years. Total liabilities? Up over the last 5 years, but up much less than assets. 

Year to date (which as far as data go is 3Q2015), operating profit is down. Lower profit is not the same as loss.


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## nhz (Jan 16, 2016)

tcmatthews said:


> As for dumping brand X and going to brand Y every six months I don't understand them either. For me it is a slow deliberate decision. I have been dual Canon /Sony sense 2012. Sony in now making decisions easier given how well their cameras work with Canon lenses.



Same here, I have been looking for an upgrade for my 450D for years. Gradually I came to the conclusion that Canon is not going to offer the type of camera that I want: pathetic progress in sensor quality, typical two steps forward one step back (or worse) approach to new models, and the combination of features that I want is only available in 'pro' cameras that in many ways are not my taste. Apparently I'm not the typical Canon buyer ;-(

So I have (reluctantly, because I'm happy with Canon lenses) been looking at the alternatives. I hate to switch because it can take months to learn a new camera, and if I switch the plan is to stick to the new camera line for many years. 

Several Nikon cameras are very close to what I want but unfortunately there is no way to use Canon lenses and especially for DX in the WA range there are very few quality lenses. Sony A7R2 looks great to me but it's expensive and there are some limitations, especially that one of my main subjects requires fast AF (using Canon lens plus adapter, there are very few Sony/Zeiss lenses that I like up to now). 

I'm tired of waiting for Canon to deliver and definitely going to buy something this year; going 'dual' might be an option as well (e.g. a Nikon with just a few lenses, or Sony A7R2 body plus metabones adapter for the more casual shots where fast AF is not essential). Theoretically a much improved SL2, 80D or 6D2 could keep me fully in the Canon camp but I'm not holding my breath for that.


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## tcmatthews (Jan 16, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> tcmatthews said:
> 
> 
> > The M1 drove me crazy. I want a mode dial, three control dials, viewfinder and the ability to turn off the touch screen and never use it again.
> ...



It was cheaper than buying the 20 mm pancake lens for my Sony. I loved the 22mm f2 lens. I could not stand the camera. I am now thinking that moving to m4/3 for a compact system camera seems like better idea. They have improved a lot in the last 4 years.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 16, 2016)

tcmatthews said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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> 
> > tcmatthews said:
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Yes, the 22/2 is very nice. There are things I don't like about the M system, but for my main criterion of largest sensor in most portable kit, it fits the bill very well.


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## Alastair Norcross (Jan 16, 2016)

I love my M with 22 pancake (and with 11-22). It's small, but really high quality. The AF isn't lightning fast, but I don't use it for sports, so I don't care. I've never understood all the whining about the M. The touchscreen is really well implemented, and the build quality is great. It was also really cheap. I'll certainly be interested in an M4, but I don't need it. If I get it, it will be pure self-indulgence.


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## tcmatthews (Jan 16, 2016)

Alastair Norcross said:


> I love my M with 22 pancake (and with 11-22). It's small, but really high quality. The AF isn't lightning fast, but I don't use it for sports, so I don't care. I've never understood all the whining about the M. The touchscreen is really well implemented, and the build quality is great. It was also really cheap. I'll certainly be interested in an M4, but I don't need it. If I get it, it will be pure self-indulgence.



And that I think is the real issue. There are photographers that want a touchscreen and those that don't. I do not really want a touchscreen on my camera. I have always felt the touch screen implementation in Canon cameras is an abomination. If it has a touchscreen I want the ability to turn it off and still have full use of the camera. 

There is also the problem of availability. Nobody around me caries anything EOS M. I can go to the local Best Buy only 2 miles away and check out all the Sony E mount cameras. They also have popular m4/3 and a few Fujifilm cameras. Nobody in the USA even knows the EOS M line exists unless they are a Canon enthusiasts.

Until Canon US wants to support the EOS M completely it will be nothing but a me too camera. The problem is we all know that Canon can produce a camera better than any of their current efforts. But they seem unwilling. 

I came to the conclusion that Canon is going to have to release a Camera so go that I want to sell all my Sony E mount gear. They would have to release a camera better than any of their current Rebel cameras something on par with a 70D. 

I do not see that happening.


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## Luds34 (Jan 16, 2016)

Random Orbits said:


> Luds34 said:
> 
> 
> > The M + 22mm is pretty tough to beat if one is going for the ultimate, compact kit while still having a good size sensor. But other then that, the M line is pretty lacking. I did end up going Fuji for my compact kit and have been quite satisfied. Only complaint, is while the Fuji glass is pretty awesome optically, it can be quite pricey!
> ...



Absolutely. I like to call the M + 22mm "winter pocketable". It isn't too bulky or heavy that I can easily zip it up on the inside pocket of my winter jacket. This has worked out numerous times where I'm out in the evening, have zero desire to carry a dedicated bag, but would love to have a camera with.


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## Luds34 (Jan 16, 2016)

tcmatthews said:


> Bernard said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is a funny read so far. So many people are "dumping brand X and going to brand Y" every six months! Sales should be booming.
> ...



Yep, it's amazing what a few key dials, buttons will do for your shooting experience. Shooting the M in manual was such a pain as half the time I didn't know if I was adjusting shutter or aperture. And the lack of an EVF, I just don't like the cell phone style shooting of holding a camera 3 feet from my body.


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## Don Haines (Jan 17, 2016)

EOS-M.........

70D sensor......
Touchscreen......
WiFi.......
SD UHS-II card slot.....

Would sell well.....


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 17, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> EOS-M.........
> 
> 70D sensor......
> Touchscreen......
> ...



Possibly even as well as most MILCs out there.....

Oh, wait.....


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## Don Haines (Jan 17, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > EOS-M.........
> ...


There is a distinct difference between "would sell well" and would sell as well as the better selling DSLRs.... The Olympus cameras sell well..... Sony sells well..... But Nikon and Canon sell great....

And yes, I think a well specked M might sell as well as most MILCs out there.... It might be a smaller sized market, but if they chose to compete in it, then obviously Canon must regard it as a market worth competing in.


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## tcmatthews (Jan 17, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> EOS-M.........
> 
> 70D sensor......
> Touchscreen......
> ...



No it would only sell well if they actually got it into the mass market retail alongside the Rebels. Mass market retailers are sometimes reluctant to put products that have historically not sold well until deeply discounted. 

I think Canon missed the boat. I think it would be better if Canon build a full frame EOS M and get on the full frame mirrorless before Sony takes that boat out of port. If they could make the mounts compatible they could use the APCs EOS M as an entry point just like the rebels.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 17, 2016)

tcmatthews said:


> I think it would be better if Canon build a full frame EOS M and get on the full frame mirrorless before Sony takes that boat *dinghy* out of port.



Fixed that for you.


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