# Patent: Canon stereoscopic lens for the RF mount



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 4, 2020)

> Canon News has uncovered an interesting patent for a stereoscopic lens for what appears to be the RF mount.
> According to the patent, this would only work on a full-frame camera, as the two lenses have an image height of 8.75mm which fits perfectly for a full-frame sensor.
> According to the patent language, the application is for a camera, as the design takes into account a camera grip for usability.
> In the lens device, since the angle of view of the optical system is relatively narrow and the distance (baseline length) between the optical axes of the two optical systems is short, the realism of the obtained stereoscopic image is not sufficient.  On the other hand, in the imaging apparatus described in Patent Document 1, when the two optical systems to try to increase the base length with a wide-angle of view, lens apparatus is enlarged. In this case, when the lens device is attached to the main...



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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 4, 2020)

Wouldn't it be used for 3D video's? 

Stereo photos used to be used for Viewmaster stereoscope reels, now, they are used to get 3D effects for Virtual Reality. I suppose that would be the most likely application.


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## Robert Marxreiter (Sep 4, 2020)

I agree that this would be primarily interesting for the RF cinema cameras.

As I understand this this would be two anamorphic lenses in one with the added difficulty that the left one has to be offset further out to provide proper eye distance while still leaving enough space for the Hand around the grip if you were to use it with an R6/ R5. So the focal length of the left lens would have to be slightly shorter and faster to make up for the longer distance. 

Interesting.


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## Antono Refa (Sep 4, 2020)

Doesn't half angle of view of 90.00° the lens casts a fisheye image to each half of the sensor? I'm not sure what that would be useful for.


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## miketcool (Sep 4, 2020)

It would work on an 8K sensor.


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## jolyonralph (Sep 4, 2020)

I'd buy one of those in a moment.

Yes, it certainly looks like a stereoscopic fisheye lens. We've been doing a lot of work with stereoscopic imagery for my website, and would certainly find a use for this (although a stereoscopic macro lens would be even better)


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## sean3d (Sep 4, 2020)

Looks like a fun lens. Perhaps good for stereoscopic half spherical projections? VR dome?


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## mb66energy (Sep 4, 2020)

Maybe for astronauts on the moon or mars in the next 5 ... 10 years to measure objects? To make immersive movies of the first mars landing? Thoughts just going mad ...
But measuring objects might be a good application for a high res stereo image with one camera. E.g. for checks on large buildings if everything is in place ...


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## mb66energy (Sep 4, 2020)

Robert Marxreiter said:


> [...].
> 
> So the focal length of the left lens would have to be slightly shorter and faster to make up for the longer distance.
> 
> Interesting.


I think they have two different lenses with the SAME effective focal length but the left one is more "retrofocus" to have a longer distance between the first element and the image plane - like they do for SLRs or better have done for SLRs due to the larger flange distance.
By the way: To do that calculation seems hard work - two lenses with different distances to the sensor but very very similiar image properties to give a good stereo view ...


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## [email protected] (Sep 4, 2020)

Seems to indicate VR use, due to fisheye nature of each side. There was another patent not too long ago - so far unreported so far as I know - that dealt with multiple cameras and multiple views from a camera being used to identify individual objects in a scene and their various spatial relations. The patent appeared to be regarding security cameras, though; at least I thought at the time. I went and (via Google Translate) looked at this patent, and it seems more geared to the photo/video market. Fun stuff.


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## usern4cr (Sep 5, 2020)

2 little fisheye lenses squeezed into a single 3:2 sensor? 

Geez! Why don't you just *buy 2 R5s and 2 lenses* and build a bracket to hold them together?


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## analoggrotto (Sep 5, 2020)

RF panavision with autofocus and desqueeze preview, go!


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## zim (Sep 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> 2 little fisheye lenses squeezed into a single 3:2 sensor?
> 
> Geez! Why don't you just *buy 2 R5s and 2 lenses* and build a bracket to hold them together?


Well they have to get rid of all those old dslr prisms somehow


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## Antono Refa (Sep 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> 2 little fisheye lenses squeezed into a single 3:2 sensor?
> 
> Geez! Why don't you just *buy 2 R5s and 2 lenses* and build a bracket to hold them together?



Because it would double cost & weight, and probably harder to calibrate.


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## Kit. (Sep 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> 2 little fisheye lenses squeezed into a single 3:2 sensor?
> 
> Geez! Why don't you just *buy 2 R5s and 2 lenses* and build a bracket to hold them together?


How are you going to synchronize their shutters?


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## usern4cr (Sep 5, 2020)

Kit. said:


> How are you going to synchronize their shutters?


Well, you could use one wired shutter release with the cable split properly into 2 cables.


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## usern4cr (Sep 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> 2 little fisheye lenses squeezed into a single 3:2 sensor?
> 
> Geez! Why don't you just *buy 2 R5s and 2 lenses* and build a bracket to hold them together?


Well, I didn't expect that much reaction to my post. In fact, I have seen people put 2 cameras on a bar and take high quality stereo photos in the past, I'm sure with a single shutter release hooked up to both of them.

I've always loved the View-Master slides & viewer, and wished there was a great mainstream stereo camera I could use, and envisioned it as a double lens & mount on the far left & right of a single body, and a separate viewer of some sort to view the result later. But maybe you could have both in a single body by putting the lenses at the top left & right and having 2 viewfinders with adjustable eye spacing and a cutout in the bottom center for your nose. That basically becomes a binocular camera, which I would dearly love to have!

It seems odd to try to pack 2 lenses into one lens body that funnels the light from 2 views which must be kept separate onto a single sensor, which I assume is done by making their images so small that they fit separately on the left & right sides of the sensor, with lots of wasted sensor space around both of them.

I guess the reason that this patent was done is that it is economically possible to have a single lens made (no matter how great the complexity and loss of IQ) to fit on a currently produced mainstream camera.

You know, Canon does make stellar image stabilized binoculars. Why don't they just put 2 sensor&EVFs on them and come out with a line of binocular cameras, with some having a wide angle of view or possibly with zoom ability. That's what I'd buy!


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## Kit. (Sep 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Well, you could use one wired shutter release with the cable split properly into 2 cables.


So, only good for stationary subjects?


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## usern4cr (Sep 5, 2020)

Kit. said:


> So, only good for stationary subjects?


I suppose if both cameras start at the same time (via a split manual release) then a video with time-code could keep them in sync later for post combination.

Or if the cameras were as close together as possible on a nice tripod then you could get stills or video with moving subjects just like you would with a regular camera on a tripod.


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## Vtcook (Sep 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Well, I didn't expect that much reaction to my post. In fact, I have seen people put 2 cameras on a bar and take high quality stereo photos in the past, I'm sure with a single shutter release hooked up to both of them.
> 
> I've always loved the View-Master slides & viewer, and wished there was a great mainstream stereo camera I could use, and envisioned it as a double lens & mount on the far left & right of a single body, and a separate viewer of some sort to view the result later. But maybe you could have both in a single body by putting the lenses at the top left & right and having 2 viewfinders with adjustable eye spacing and a cutout in the bottom center for your nose. That basically becomes a binocular camera, which I would dearly love to have!
> 
> ...


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## Vtcook (Sep 5, 2020)

This would be a dream for me. The sensor may be used in halves, so that you have 2 portrait oriented shots (these could be cropped to landscape with a large 45 mp sensor like the R5). One shutter release so that you have same metering, shutter speed etc. in one frame. I have also photographed with 2 cameras on a rig that try to get same settings. It is way too finicky and problematic. It must be perfect. If you have a single leaf or small subject blowing in the breeze and out of sync the mind cannot process it and it makes you nautious. I have used a lens that splits the image via mirrors but it was cheaply made and results were poor. A true quality stereo lens would definitely get me back into stereo photography which I left because it was.too finicky and current stereo cameras were essentially point and shoot. Stereo photo on a great quality on my R5 would be phenomenal.


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## Kit. (Sep 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> I suppose if both cameras start at the same time (via a split manual release) then a video with time-code could keep them in sync later for post combination.
> 
> Of if the cameras were as close together as possible on a nice tripod then you could get stills or video with moving subjects just like you would with a regular camera on a tripod.


I'm concerned about depth perception. If the subject moves between its "left" and "right" exposures, a distance to it will appear wrong and potentially inconsistent.

If you project both the "left" and the "right" images on the left and the right halves of the same sensor with a vertically moving shutter, that won't happen.

Otherwise you would need to synchronize the shutters of two cameras very precisely.


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## usern4cr (Sep 5, 2020)

Kit. said:


> I'm concerned about depth perception. If the subject moves between its "left" and "right" exposures, a distance to it will appear wrong and potentially inconsistent.
> 
> If you project both the "left" and the "right" images on the left and the right halves of the same sensor with a vertically moving shutter, that won't happen.
> 
> Otherwise you would need to synchronize the shutters of two cameras very precisely.


Again, having a manual remote switch (Canon RS-80N3 which I have) and then electrically (and safely) spliting into 2 plugs for the 2 cameras, would start the exposure at the *same exact time* and that remote press can be mechanically held "on" until you release it (again happening to both cameras simultaneously)!


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## usern4cr (Sep 5, 2020)

SwissFrank said:


> baseline would be far wider than human's eyes and thust not realistic. I imagine these two lenses are an average eye distance apart.


Not really. Hold your R5 to your face and look into a mirror. If the center of your eyes were at the center of 2 lenses then they'd entirely fit in the width of the R5. Now you can make them slightly more separated as needed to allow for the desired max. width of the lenses you have (either fixed on the camera or interchangeable). But it can definitely work.

Now selling it profitably is another issue! But you have an entire planet of people who've never had access to a "binocular camera" before, so look at the market potential! Ca - ching!


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## usern4cr (Sep 5, 2020)

Some people here think that you have to have the 2 lens centers the same distance apart as the human eye for you to comfortably see the result. This is not at all true! Grab a big size pair of binoculars and you will instantly see that the centers of the 2 lenses are far wider apart than the human eyes. Heck, I've owned a pair of Fujinon 150mm diameter occular, 25x power binoculars (which are HUGE! and must be mounted on a heavy-duty telescope tripod) and those centers are waaaay further apart than my eyes, and everything looks *perfect*.


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## SteveC (Sep 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Some people here think that you have to have the 2 lens centers the same distance apart as the human eye for you to comfortably see the result. This is not at all true! Grab a big size pair of binoculars and you will instantly see that the centers of the 2 lenses are far wider apart than the human eyes. Heck, I've owned a pair of Fujinon 150mm diameter occular, 25x power binoculars (which are HUGE! and must be mounted on a heavy-duty telescope tripod) and those centers are waaaay further apart than my eyes, and everything looks *perfect*.



I will guess that the more you zoom, the farther apart the "eyes" should be, otherwise it will just look flat.


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## Kit. (Sep 5, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Again, having a manual remote switch (Canon RS-80N3 which I have) and then electrically (and safely) spliting into 2 plugs for the 2 cameras, would start the exposure at the *same exact time* and that remote press can be mechanically held "on" until you release it (again happening to both cameras simultaneously)!


In mirrorless, I would naturally expect shutter lag instability up to 1 EVF refresh cycle.


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## SteveC (Sep 5, 2020)

I expect dedicated hardware would have two lens mounts and two sensors--and ONE signal to trip both shutters.


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## melgross (Sep 5, 2020)

I have to assume Canon knows what they’re doing. I imagine they have figured the problems out for whatever use this is intended for.


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## Robert Marxreiter (Sep 6, 2020)

mb66energy said:


> I think they have two different lenses with the SAME effective focal length [...]



That's what I meant. The left lens in front of the periscope would have to have a shorter focal lengh to compensate for the longer periscope and result in the same effective focal length on the sensor.


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## kten (Sep 6, 2020)

as swissfrank said for VR and near objects the further out from average IPD the cameras are the bigger the problems for viewers. Both myself and many I know have complained a lot of the VR video made to look impressive would be, until something comes in frame close to the camera and then it is headache time and just makes it pointless and shows up all weakness of that as a medium. No way I'd watch somethign featurelength like that. Problem is the double cam brackets generally can't get them close enough like with small cube bodies or vr dedicated cameras. To mount base to base on DSLR style bodies is not that simple either, although can work requires mounting solutions I've never seen and the heights would need staggering to keep the sensors level relative to each other. Also you would need to mess with signal flipping things although that isn't hard this could even theoretically be fed directly to a HMD. I'm guessing the output from this looks exactly what a valve index outputs to OBS (ie. side by side fisheye) and that can be fed direct in to most VR players which already have an option for horizontal split and do it for you. This solves all that and basically allows content producers to make stuff that looks correct like the VR only tools currently do.


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## canonnews (Sep 6, 2020)

SwissFrank said:


> I would guess each lens casts a small image circle, so you have two 90-degree fisheyes in your one 45MP exposure.


yeah we showed this on our writeup for the patent.









Canon Patent Application: Canon Stereoscopic lens


In this patent Canon discusses a stereoscopic lens, that looks like it could be mounted onto a mirrorless camera. The lens image height is curious, as it would have to be a full frame sensor to pick up both image circles side by side. This is an illustration showing a full frame sensor and an...



www.canonnews.com





it exactly fits a full frame with 8.75mm image heights.


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## Antono Refa (Sep 6, 2020)

melgross said:


> I have to assume Canon knows what they’re doing. I imagine they have figured the problems out for whatever use this is intended for.



Why do you assume this patent is going to turn into a real lens, rather than just protect IP?


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## Daner (Sep 6, 2020)

My favorite rock guitarist / Ph.D. astrophysicist might be able to tell us all a thing or two about stereo photography:









Brian May talks about major new stereo photography book - Amateur Photographer


Brian’s London Stereoscopic Company has recently republished a book on the Scottish stereoscopic photographer George Washington Wilson, written by leading photographic historian, Professor Roger Taylor (no relation). Washington Wilson (1823-93) became the toast of Victorian society with his...




www.amateurphotographer.co.uk


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## melgross (Sep 6, 2020)

Antono Refa said:


> Why do you assume this patent is going to turn into a real lens, rather than just protect IP?


Did I say it would?


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## TominNJ (Sep 6, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Well, I didn't expect that much reaction to my post. In fact, I have seen people put 2 cameras on a bar and take high quality stereo photos in the past, I'm sure with a single shutter release hooked up to both of them.
> 
> I've always loved the View-Master slides & viewer, and wished there was a great mainstream stereo camera I could use, and envisioned it as a double lens & mount on the far left & right of a single body, and a separate viewer of some sort to view the result later. But maybe you could have both in a single body by putting the lenses at the top left & right and having 2 viewfinders with adjustable eye spacing and a cutout in the bottom center for your nose. That basically becomes a binocular camera, which I would dearly love to have!
> 
> ...


 
‘Years ago, Pentax made a stereo prism gizmo that screwed onto the front of a 50mm lens. It captured two side by side images on slide film. The slides could then be viewed in the viewer that they also made. I used the thing a couple times. It worked better on closer objects than on distant ones. I still have the stereo slides I took of our dog. They’re pretty cool.






pentax stereo adapter at DuckDuckGo


DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.




duckduckgo.com





I’m not sure how a similar device could be used with a digital camera other than using a VR headset or printing the images for viewing on one of those old stereoscopes.


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## Rocky (Sep 7, 2020)

This may be a just an updated version of the stereograph from the 50's for the digital camera. both Leica and Exakta were having it.


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## David_E (Sep 7, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> _Geez! Why don't you just *buy 2 R5s and 2 lenses* and build a bracket to hold them together?_


Interpupillary distance?


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## SteveC (Sep 7, 2020)

David_E said:


> Interpupillary distance?



You'll want them further apart than your pupils if shooting at distance (as opposed to in the same room as you are).


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## usern4cr (Sep 7, 2020)

David_E said:


> Interpupillary distance?


Well, I was assuming you're only *taking* photos with it, not viewing them in stereo. The viewer would be separate, unless they became a binocular camera. (and I'd love a binocular camera, or a set from wide-zoom to those with telephoto-zoom).


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## David_E (Sep 7, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> _Well, I was assuming you're only *taking* photos with it, not viewing them in stereo. The viewer would be separate, unless they became a binocular camera. (and I'd love a binocular camera, or a set from wide-zoom to those with telephoto-zoom)._


It’s all idle speculation. We have no idea what this design is for, or whether it will ever be built.


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2020)

A complete 3D photography solution for the modern Leica M camera - Leica Rumors


A complete 3D photography solution for the modern Leica M is by Onasj: I became interested in developing a 3D photography (stereophotography) capturing and viewing solution for the modern Leica digital M—one that does not require special glasses or projectors, or crossing your eyes. This quest...




leicarumors.com





Just in case some one is interested


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## usern4cr (Sep 8, 2020)

Rocky said:


> A complete 3D photography solution for the modern Leica M camera - Leica Rumors
> 
> 
> A complete 3D photography solution for the modern Leica M is by Onasj: I became interested in developing a 3D photography (stereophotography) capturing and viewing solution for the modern Leica digital M—one that does not require special glasses or projectors, or crossing your eyes. This quest...
> ...


Thanks for the post - it was an interesting read!


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## kten (Sep 8, 2020)

If it was ever going to get made I'd think it more likely to be VR orientated rather than the older vintage 3d images style (not that you couldn;t use it for that too). The latter is somewhat gimmick and in shrinking market it would be unlikely a conservative mature company like Canon would take risks releasing something more likely to be seen in a lensbaby product line. VR on the other hand, proper VR I mean not the smartphone or GearVR style stuff which is gimmick , is a niche that is growing stronger each year and a lot of companies are starting to develop for it. Mostly small niche still due to cost to entry barrier since high end HMD's cost £400 to £1000 (consumer, commercial solutions can be more but most of those using consumer kits now), plus the PC hardware to run things at the required performance to avoid motion sickness and so on which I wont go into here is not uncommon in the niche but not your average PC.

As the power of average PC's catches up to requirements for the fps per eye needed and cost of things comes down then the niche is likely to grow. Within the niche even the speculated "too expensive they wont sell" HMD's tend to sell out very fast. Give it few years to drop in price and average hardware of folks who don't run high end rigs to catch up and it is likely to be a market Canon may want a piece of.

Fwiw I jumped into VR early because one of my hobbies is study level style flight sims, mostly DCS world and Xplane11. I currently use valve index since last year and used many HMD's and because I am also interested in photography (and dabble in videography) I tend to follow this kind of thing but it seems to be 2 scenes that seldom cross in the way some interests do so many may not be aware of VR above the gimmicky phone and low end stuff. Not like the latter is bad but think of it as the difference between somethign like a Canon fullframe body and a cheap compact camera from supermarket electronics section; both take pictures but they are not the same thing really and people interested in photography will find the lesser one limiting and gimmick and those outside the niche wont be aware of difference as camera = camera to them. For clarity I'm thinking this product, if indeed Canon made it, would be more filling the kind of niche of things like this http://www.z-cam.com/180-vr-camera-k1-pro/


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## TAF (Mar 1, 2021)

Elsewhere on this site I've posted my suggestion for making an EOS-M mount stereo camera combining two M's.

I'd be delighted to get back in stereo photography.


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