# Craigslist for Selling - Not as Great as I thought!



## RustyTheGeek (Dec 12, 2014)

After getting rolling a month or so ago trying to get some stuff sold, things seemed to be going well. I listed stuff, people bought it. Everyone was happy.

Now I'm starting to have Craigslist problems. So I gotta vent...  Seems once you have more than a small handful of listings, like more than 5 or 6, they start "Ghosting" your listings. Ghosting is where everything appears to be fine except that the listing is never seen by anyone, ever. It doesn't show up in searches. It doesn't exist except on your account list of activity. You can't even find it by searching for the exact listing number.

Another issue is that there is a long list of rules about what can be in the listing and what can't. How it should read and how it shouldn't. Many points of what I am discovering are not in the Terms of Service. They are simply what the CL community apparently thinks. And if enough CL readers FLAG your listing, it will be removed. That is, if it isn't ghosted or deleted by the system first.

The frustrating part is that we are talking about listings that may have been good to go for a month or even a year but suddenly, it's not good. It's ghosted, flagged or deleted without any notice and you have no way to know what caused it. And if you try to relist it to fix the problem(s), it simply gets ghosted or deleted again.

So you go to the help forums. Oh, what a joy that is. Let's just say I felt like a kid with a nice camera and lens on the school yard and a group of forum volunteers proceeded to surround and gang up on me in about 2 min to criticize not only my poor attempt to be funny in the initial post title but belittle and criticize everything about the listing. Some of the input/feedback was helpful but in general, when I asked a question about why something was a potential problem, it was met with defensive retorts accusing me of feeling entitled, being stubborn or refusing to take the advice. In other words, hostile.

And there was a lot of "advice" on how I should write the listing, how I should not quote specs, prices, etc. If you have two listings that have similar text or titles, they could be flagged. And I should always state the AGE of say, a Lens. Unless it's NEW, then I shouldn't be listing it at all unless I list it as a dealer. And if I say for instance that a lens is SHARP, I am talking down to the reader. And if SHARP is in all caps, it will probably get flagged because that is shouting. No matter that there is no way to highlight or otherwise make text stand out at all since it is plain text with no formatting except caps. Oh, and no html, no links, no prices, no mention of eBay, etc. I think even having text in the image is a no-no. The list goes on and on. :

I even had one forum "helper" say that I was nuts if I thought someone was going to actually meet me with thousands of dollars in cash for photography equipment so I was most likely a scammer. Really??

So I'm just warning you that if you list something on CL, don't be surprised if you have trouble. Either the first day or day 43 something will go wrong and you'll likely never know what caused it. It's not the fun carefree CraigsList that it was a few years ago. Aaaargh!! :-[


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## privatebydesign (Dec 12, 2014)

_"I think even having text in the image is a no-no."_

It is on eBay too. 

I have done a few sales on CL for big stuff like law tractors and wheels and tyres and never had an issue, but the camera stuff has been put up here on CR (though I have never even had a PM about a single item from here!) and eBay, and what a den of issues eBay is too. It is so heavily favoured for the buyer and so expensive that I really can't be bothered with it. And eBay has lowered the value of everything, if something gets $100 on eBay then any local buyer will offer no more than $85 saying there is no 12.5% eBay/PayPal commission! But how did eBay wangle it so they get the online reduced price postage commission too?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Dec 12, 2014)

I've never had the issue, but some do. There are issues with people using software to flag competitors posts too.

I've had people meet me and pay for expensive gear, and I've laid out up to $4,400 for purchases, and many over $2,000.

Spokane is a smaller city, and its pretty easy to spot scams.


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## JonAustin (Dec 12, 2014)

I've bought and sold a number of items (mostly camera gear and Jeep Wrangler parts / accessories) on my local Craigslist (Austin & San Antonio, Texas areas) with no issues. But one guy I sold a lens to this summer told me that our transaction was his first and only positive experience with a Craigslist seller. So you're not alone.

I've also bought and sold items on eBay and Amazon; there are costs associated with those sales, but you can cast a much wider net for potential buyers. I've had a few snags with Amazon's T's & C's, and eBay has its own set of quirks and peculiarities.

Bottom line, one of the great perks of the Internet is the ability to buy and sell stuff beyond the local retail environment, newspaper ads and yard / garage sales. Each individual has to determine for himself whether any particular marketplace suits his needs.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 12, 2014)

Bummer... I had the 'ghosting' thing happen a couple of times, but I noticed that was when I actually logged into my account then posted. I went back to posting without logging in first (then clicking the link in the autosent email), and haven't had the issue since. I assume it was a technical thing, since redoing the same listing the latter way an hour later posted normally. 

Other than that and the normal 'I've just moved so I'll wire the money to a secure account in your name' scam, I've not had any issues buying and selling on CL. I've bought and sold dozens of pieces of camera gear, more sell than buy. When selling, I price appropriately, include product shots (white 'infinity' background, which for small items can even be a piece of copy paper), and I usually only need to list once (I've had to repost only a few times).


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 12, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, last night was a rant. I was both irritated and disappointed that CL is yet again proof that if something cool can exist, it can be corrupted and ruined by a minority percentage of abusers. And I woke up a little cranky this morning too. CL was created to alleviate and provide a simple alternative to exactly what it has become. So sad. 

I just want to sell some stuff slowly and not have it become a full time job, logistical nightmare or complete waste of time.

Several of you have expressed your experience, thanks for that. The most frustrating thing is that what works one time may not work tomorrow. I have tried to post a 70-200 f/4 IS lens 4 or 5 times, even trying from a completely different PC, location and ID and it still gets ghosted. I'm starting to understand why CL became a bigger target for serious hackers and is now fighting off DNS and other major cyber attack problems. They are pissing people off in droves. And if you need help, you get snide snarky smartass replies to your help request post where you are essentially told that it's a free service and you shouldn't be complaining because you are the problem, not CL. CL is perfect, it's everyone else who can't figure it out that are the problem. Oh, and I was told if I didn't like it, I should just go back to eBay where I belong. 

Someone put up a pretty extensive Wordpress site about how bad Craigslist has become. There are a lot of complaints on consumer sites too. Wow. Seems things started really going downhill in 2013. Here is a page that explains ghosting and what they did before ghosting, which I remember.
https://craigslistpostingsecrets.wordpress.com/ghosting/

In general, I try to just roll with the punches and adapt. In the end, that's all you can do. I like using CL because I get to meet some nice people and I have had some great transactions the last couple months. For that reason I am concerned that I'll eventually have to stop CL if it becomes too much trouble. And that's just sad. Some days it just doesn't pay to get outta bed!! :


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## Northstar (Dec 12, 2014)

I've never tried CL...now I don't think I will.

The last time I sold something I decided I didn't want the hassle of ebay /CL so I sold my E condition 24-105 to a local camera shop....I still regret selling it to them for their crappy offer of $450. Oh well.

Sorry to hear of your troubles Rusty.


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 12, 2014)

This experience is precisely why I would like to see a way to Buy & Sell here on CR. But I understand it's not easy for the mods, just more work. And CR will have to deal with all the scammers/spammers/trash that having a selling forum attracts.

It's like every picnic draws unwanted insects and potential bad weather when all you wanted to do was enjoy the day with some tasty snacks and a good drink. Sigh... :


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## slclick (Dec 12, 2014)

My experience for CL has been mixed determined by the genre and type of customer interested in a particular item. 
For example if I am selling a high end road bike part, the buyers are generally friendly, enthusiastic and agreeable. 
If I am selling camera gear it's almost as pleasant of an experience but there have been a few times where it could have been a possible ripoff or shaky situation. That's why I always meet in the seating out front of the local Starbucks.

Now when it comes to ordinary household and yard items, that's when the creeps come out. 

All in all I much rather prefer selling on Amazon Seller Central. The fee is worth the peace of mind and the protection.


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## sanjosedave (Dec 12, 2014)

My experience has been mixed, too

Last week I posted my unused Epson R3000 for sale at a price below sold prices, $300, on ebay and received a single inquiry, and he wanted to give me $200, since I was firm on my price, he passed. I guess I should have posted a price of $400 and negotiated down from that.

When I buy, I've used a global CL search. It was helpful to find a cache of Vericolor 120 in NJ


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 12, 2014)

Another thing I came to realize pretty quickly...

The expensive stuff sells with a lot less hassle. For example: The used 60D I have had listed for almost two months still hasn't sold even after lowering the price. I've had more scam offers, low-ball offers and waste of time wafflers on that camera than anything else I have listed. In contrast, while I still get a few low-ballers, the 6D, 5D3 and 7D2 in general sold fairly quickly to actual photographers who simply wanted to meet, inspect and buy with cash. I usually enjoyed a nice conversation over coffee about photography or whatever topic came up.

I am possibly being naive about how folks use CL. I assume when folks want something they do a search, find some deals and contact the seller about purchase. I didn't realize (and I'm not sure I believe) that there is a whole "CL community" that spends their time browsing CL and "policing" or "flagging" numerous listings for mistakes or other minor things. Major spam/scam listings, sure. But again, maybe I'm just not tuned in to the true CL reality.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 12, 2014)

RustyTheGeek said:


> Another thing I came to realize pretty quickly...
> 
> The expensive stuff sells with a lot less hassle. For example: The used 60D I have had listed for almost two months still hasn't sold even after lowering the price. I've had more scam offers, low-ball offers and waste of time wafflers on that camera than anything else I have listed. In contrast, while I still get a few low-ballers, the 6D, 5D3 and 7D2 in general sold fairly quickly to actual photographers who simply wanted to meet, inspect and buy with cash. I usually enjoyed a nice conversation over coffee about photography or whatever topic came up.



Might be a geographical thing? I've had no trouble selling low value stuff. My T1i sold quickly, back in 2010. I recently sold a pair of B+W 77mm UV filters, a while back a Lumiquest Softbox III. I also recently sold a PocketWizard PowerMC2, a pretty specialized item in that it only works with the PCB Einstein monolight and you need to already have (or buy) a PW trigger (I'd already sold off my set of PW transceivers, the buyer had no need for the MC2). But likewise, no trouble selling higher end stuff (gripped 5DII, 100-400L, 16-35L II, etc.).




RustyTheGeek said:


> I am possibly being naive about how folks use CL. I assume when folks want something they do a search, find some deals and contact the seller about purchase. I didn't realize (and I'm not sure I believe) that there is a whole "CL community" that spends their time browsing CL and "policing" or "flagging" numerous listings for mistakes or other minor things. Major spam/scam listings, sure. But again, maybe I'm just not tuned in to the true CL reality.



I suspect that's most of it. But there's one guy on my local board that actively replies to items that are overpriced (near or even over retail pricing), and calls out apparent scammers.


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## IgotGASbadDude (Dec 12, 2014)

I sold my D3200 (why did I buy Nikon?) after 13 months of listing. $800

I sold my 7D after 5 months of listing. $950

My most nerve wracking purchase was a Canon 1V HS that I bought from a pawn shop in LA. (the purchase turned out fine) $400.

I'm in the process of purchasing a 1DX. $5000 ish.

I've sold a Harley. $6,300.

Craigslist works, just ignore those negative nellies.


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 12, 2014)

IgotGASbadDude said:


> I sold my D3200 (why did I buy Nikon?) after 13 months of listing. $800
> 
> I sold my 7D after 5 months of listing. $950
> 
> ...



Thanks for the support. I'm fine with tolerating negative nellies. It's when CL shoots me down with no explanation or recourse that I am pretty much stuck. And that is hard to predict or mitigate. In general I am learning that CL isn't reliable, can't be counted on and won't do anything (doesn't give a dam) about it. That's my primary disappointment. And I'm learning that it's a common problem for many other CL users.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 12, 2014)

IgotGASbadDude said:


> I'm in the process of purchasing a 1DX. $5000 ish.



They're less than that brand new (gray market) on eBay right now...


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## jdramirez (Dec 12, 2014)

I frequent our local Craigslist for camera gear... And if I see something flag worthy, I'll send an email to the person... then they get pissed... & I respond... It is probably going to be flagged and I would prefer to know a reason rather than just guess.

More often than not the people say thanks.

I don't flag much, but if someone is trying to sell an xti for$800, that's just stupid... or if they try to sell naked photos of themselves... go nuts, but do it in the home decor section or art... not in the gear.

I have been called a scammer... I tell them I have a receipt... 

But... It is basically free... And over a long period of time I've had a good experience. 

The rule that initially tripped me up was listing gear on separate pages... that ruffled some feathers.


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## slclick (Dec 12, 2014)

And not much more new in US from an authorized dealer


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## jdramirez (Dec 12, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I've never had the issue, but some do. There are issues with people using software to flag competitors posts too.
> 
> I've had people meet me and pay for expensive gear, and I've laid out up to $4,400 for purchases, and many over $2,000.
> 
> Spokane is a smaller city, and its pretty easy to spot scams.


Sometimes I screw with the scammers.... sure I'll mail you my stuff...


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## IgotGASbadDude (Dec 12, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> IgotGASbadDude said:
> 
> 
> > I'm in the process of purchasing a 1DX. $5000 ish.
> ...



I know. But A) I don't like dealing with non-authorized dealers and B) he's accepting items in the trade--I don't have $5k cash. 8)


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## distant.star (Dec 13, 2014)

. 
I've successfully sold a few things on CL -- and found a very nice side benefit.

Ever since my first listing I've been getting daily invitations from lovely young ladies to all sorts of social activities. Makes me think of the ending to the movie, "It's a Wonderful Life."

"No man is a failure who has friends."


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## DominoDude (Dec 13, 2014)

distant.star said:


> I've successfully sold a few things on CL -- and found a very nice side benefit.
> 
> Ever since my first listing I've been getting daily invitations from lovely young ladies to all sorts of social activities. Makes me think of the ending to the movie, "It's a Wonderful Life."
> 
> "No man is a failure who has friends."


*Pssst!* Spill the beans, Distant.Star! What does one have to offer to get such invites? Old wedding rings, or fast Porsches?


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 17, 2014)

Well, the hits just keep on coming!! I met someone yesterday to sell the 5D3 I bought to sell and... they stole it. Yep, STOLEN. I met him at a Taco Bell, we talked a few minutes, he inspected the camera stuff in the box, talked about computer stuff a little, calm as can be and then proceeded to say he would get his money, started to walk away with the box and before I could stop him he was out the door, across the street and beatin' feet. Bye 5D3!! :-[ 

So, I feel like a chump even though I wasn't about to chase him down and risk meeting all his friends down the street, in a car or around the corner.

So keep that in mind, even though no one was hurt (except my pride/ego), this crap can happen. So once I sell all the stuff I have to sell, I'll still probably come out ahead but most of my profit is gone now. What a pisser.


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## DominoDude (Dec 17, 2014)

RustyTheGeek said:


> Well, the hits just keep on coming!! I met someone yesterday to sell the 5D3 I bought to sell and... they stole it. Yep, STOLEN. I met him at a Taco Bell, we talked a few minutes, he inspected the camera stuff in the box, talked about computer stuff a little, calm as can be and then proceeded to say he would get his money, started to walk away with the box and before I could stop him he was out the door, across the street and beatin' feet. Bye 5D3!! :-[
> 
> So, I feel like a chump even though I wasn't about to chase him down and risk meeting all his friends down the street, in a car or around the corner.
> 
> So keep that in mind, even though no one was hurt (except my pride/ego), this crap can happen. So once I sell all the stuff I have to sell, I'll still probably come out ahead but most of my profit is gone now. What a pisser.



Oh, dude! You've had a really, really bad streak lately. 
In any future attempts at selling items you will have to say that you're working "with the police" (here it would be illegal to say that you *are* a police, if not), and make sure you could show off any of your goods in front of the nearest police department (or near a working surveillance camera).

I hope the bad karma turns real soon, and that you can expect something extraordinary for *Xmas*.


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 17, 2014)

DominoDude said:


> RustyTheGeek said:
> 
> 
> > Well, the hits just keep on coming!! I met someone yesterday to sell the 5D3 I bought to sell and... they stole it. Yep, STOLEN. I met him at a Taco Bell, we talked a few minutes, he inspected the camera stuff in the box, talked about computer stuff a little, calm as can be and then proceeded to say he would get his money, started to walk away with the box and before I could stop him he was out the door, across the street and beatin' feet. Bye 5D3!! :-[
> ...



Yeah, I thought about just meeting in the police lobby or parking lot from now on, LOL!


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## aces-ags (Dec 17, 2014)

I have been thinking of selling camera equipment that I own on CL. 

Can someone give pointers on cautions I should use while posting and meeting potential buyers?

Do you give your personal phone number to strangers while communicating? I can imagine someone misusing it or make threatening calls...How do you get in touch with the buyers to avoid this?


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## jdramirez (Dec 17, 2014)

Obviously you called the police and asked the taco bell manager there are surveillance videos. 



RustyTheGeek said:


> Well, the hits just keep on coming!! I met someone yesterday to sell the 5D3 I bought to sell and... they stole it. Yep, STOLEN. I met him at a Taco Bell, we talked a few minutes, he inspected the camera stuff in the box, talked about computer stuff a little, calm as can be and then proceeded to say he would get his money, started to walk away with the box and before I could stop him he was out the door, across the street and beatin' feet. Bye 5D3!! :-[
> 
> So, I feel like a chump even though I wasn't about to chase him down and risk meeting all his friends down the street, in a car or around the corner.
> 
> So keep that in mind, even though no one was hurt (except my pride/ego), this crap can happen. So once I sell all the stuff I have to sell, I'll still probably come out ahead but most of my profit is gone now. What a pisser.


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## jdramirez (Dec 17, 2014)

I was reading freakonomics 2 the other day... And there is a story about a prostitute who requires a work phone number & she calls to confirm... in her words no one wants a crazy prostitute coming to their work...


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 17, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> Obviously you called the police and asked the taco bell manager there are surveillance videos.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, filed police report and hopefully the detective for the case gets the store videos. I hate to say this but I've heard from more than one source that in general, the police pretty much blow this stuff off. There's just too much to do and not enough manpower or resources to do it. My only hope is that since this is a felony (over $1500) it might make it a higher priority to pursue.


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 17, 2014)

aces-ags said:


> I have been thinking of selling camera equipment that I own on CL.
> 
> Can someone give pointers on cautions I should use while posting and meeting potential buyers?
> 
> Do you give your personal phone number to strangers while communicating? I can imagine someone misusing it or make threatening calls...How do you get in touch with the buyers to avoid this?



Some of the big rules are...

1. NEVER invite people to your home or give them your address. (I mask my address on all receipts, etc that I include with an item.)
2. I do my communication via a tiered system of my design.
a. CL Mail Relay (anonymous)
b. Burner Phone or Virtual Phone App with "Burner" Phone number.
c. Once I've met them and a sale occurs, I will give them my real cell number/email/business card if I trust them.
3. ALWAYS meet in a public place, well lit and in a known area. (This Taco Bell wasn't terrible, it was public and well lit with surveillance video, but I didn't realize it was so easy to run away from it on foot.)
4. Try to arrive at a meeting early so you can watch vehicles and see people coming and who they are with.
a. This way you can get license numbers, take a picture or two and in general be on your guard.
5. Go with a friend if possible.
6. CASH ONLY to the buyer only, not a friend, cousin, etc. NO PAYPAL, WESTERN UNION, CHECKS, ETC.

Check out these links if you haven't already.
http://www.craigslist.org/about/safety
http://www.craigslist.org/about/scams

And to be honest, I did not obey my rule #4 above. I was running late even though I had suspicions about the meeting. I let the chance of making a sale and the fact that all my previous sales had gone smoothly in public places convince me that it was going to be ok. I got a bit sloppy and it cost me. But I've learned my lesson and I will be more vigilant and demand more proof of serious buyer intent from now on.

And I will tell people up front that I've been ripped off before so I demand proof of a genuine buyer when I meet. Like an ID, etc. Maybe a call back to a legitimate place like their work. Not sure on my final plan for this yet.


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## DominoDude (Dec 17, 2014)

Btw: Rusty, did you manage to record your serial numbers on Lenstag before this occurred? (https://www.lenstag.com)
I have some of my gears serial numbers listed there; if I wasn't so damn lazy I would even had them verified so that they would be useful if the fit hit the shan...


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 17, 2014)

DominoDude said:


> Btw: Rusty, did you manage to record your serial numbers on Lenstag before this occurred? (https://www.lenstag.com)
> I have some of my gears serial numbers listed there; if I wasn't so damn lazy I would even had them verified so that they would be useful if the fit hit the shan...



Good question. Not on Lenstag but I do keep the serial numbers in case someone ever tries to pull a switch and return on me.


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## jdramirez (Dec 17, 2014)

RustyTheGeek said:


> DominoDude said:
> 
> 
> > Btw: Rusty, did you manage to record your serial numbers on Lenstag before this occurred? (https://www.lenstag.com)
> ...



Can you contact CPS... see if someone who unknowingly buys it off ebay/amazon, or whatever... then they register it on cps... and bam, cps lets you know, you tell the police...

the buyer then has to mail it back to you... and they will then contact amazon/ebay or whatever and demand a refund... and the theft guy then gets his payment stopped... maybe even goes to jail.


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## luckydude (Dec 18, 2014)

RustyTheGeek said:


> This experience is precisely why I would like to see a way to Buy & Sell here on CR. But I understand it's not easy for the mods, just more work. And CR will have to deal with all the scammers/spammers/trash that having a selling forum attracts.
> 
> It's like every picnic draws unwanted insects and potential bad weather when all you wanted to do was enjoy the day with some tasty snacks and a good drink. Sigh... :



Fred Miranda has a buy/sell. I haven't used it, I hang out here more, but it looks like it might work.


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 18, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> RustyTheGeek said:
> 
> 
> > DominoDude said:
> ...



Well, thanks *JD* for your concern and ideas. I appreciate your time to offer your thoughts. No offense but my guess is that your chain of events is probably an extremely optimistic version of the reality. Most of us in the honest world wish everyone wanted to catch criminals with mechanisms in place that seem like they should achieve that but it's rarely the case. Sort of a "Wish in one hand..." sort of thing. Of course, it can't hurt and I'll probably register it just in case.

My guess is that a) CPS doesn't care, b) Most folks would never register it on CPS, c) eBay doesn't care and finally and unfortunately, d) the police wouldn't care. (And which police, if they did care, would have jurisdiction?) Most all entities these days are not interested in getting involved and actually say that in their terms of use. No, I haven't read the CPS terms about this but I'm just assuming. If something like this could somehow happen, it would have to be driven by the authorities and that's likely where nothing would happen in the first place.

For instance, I know of a situation where a couple had their identity stolen, they spent weeks tracking down the thieves themselves, they got video and all kinds of other evidence and proof and turned it all over to the authorities who basically said that they weren't interested and didn't have time to mess with it. That's the general mentality of most police today. They are overworked, underpaid and in general, only pursue major crimes. Their petty crimes divisions are underfunded and overworked. The only hope I hold out for this case is that it is a felony due to the dollar amount so it might get a little more effort. But I doubt it.

I'm glad no one was threatened or hurt, I'm glad it was just the camera and not the lens too. I'm glad I hopefully learned something and I hope it helps everyone who hears about it avoid the same thing happening to them in the future, including me. I'm also glad that I have the means to shrug it off as a lesson learned and not ruin my Christmas or put me in the poor house due to the unexpected loss. I wish it had been the used 60D and not a new 5D3 but who knows what will happen in the future. Being a $3000 camera, it will probably be very hard to get rid of unless it's sold to a individual in a parking lot somewhere for $200 or something. And even that has an element of risk for the thief.


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## luckydude (Dec 18, 2014)

I've bought stuff off of craigslist for years with no problems. I've sold some stuff but mostly been a buyer.

One way to weed out scammers, again as a buyer, is to ask for a 48 hour return option provided it is in identical condition. You aren't going to actually return it, you just want to see how they react. I bought my 400mm DO for $4200 off of craigslist a few years ago. I ran that idea up the flag pole and he wasn't thrilled but agreed.

I wish I had more advice on the selling side, I've sort of given up selling stuff, I live in a remote area with tractors and cameras, I don't want people coming to my house. These days I give stuff away to friends in need rather than sell it but I'll be joining your ranks to sell my 400mm DO to help fund the purchase of the mark II. So I'll be watching this thread for ideas.

Perhaps on the selling side you try this (from my motorcycle days). You want to hold the camera? Great, I want to hold the cash. No cash, no camera out of my hands. And you state that up front before the meeting. Think that would have worked?


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 18, 2014)

luckydude said:


> I've bought stuff off of craigslist for years with no problems. I've sold some stuff but mostly been a buyer.
> 
> One way to weed out scammers, again as a buyer, is to ask for a 48 hour return option provided it is in identical condition. You aren't going to actually return it, you just want to see how they react. I bought my 400mm DO for $4200 off of craigslist a few years ago. I ran that idea up the flag pole and he wasn't thrilled but agreed.
> 
> ...



Well, as you can imagine, I've been mulling this over. I always try to put myself in the shoes of the buyer. They don't want to put themselves at risk either. So things like taking a photo of their ID/DL is probably not a reality. I'm not giving out my address and I figure they won't either. However, if I take their photo and a photo of their vehicle including the license plate, that may go a ways toward establishing ID without any other need. I wouldn't mind giving out my vehicle tag and make/model, it's public info already. If they walk in without a vehicle, no sale. Go away.

As for holding cash before holding camera, I like the idea but again, most buyers would be suspicious (and rightly so) that I would do the very same thing, run with the cash while they sit there with a camera box full of newspapers or a brick.

I fantasize how funny it would have been if the crook that ripped me off ran away, jumped fences, ripped his clothes and got a bloody knee only to arrive at his destination and discovered that all that was really in the box was some old junk cables, junk camera manual and a brick wrapped in bubble wrap. You know, a crook who ran off with another crooks' scam! LOL! Unfortunately, that wasn't the case.


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## luckydude (Dec 18, 2014)

RustyTheGeek said:


> As for holding cash before holding camera, I like the idea but again, most buyers would be suspicious (and rightly so) that I would do the very same thing, run with the cash while they sit there with a camera box full of newspapers or a brick.



What I was looking for was the same thing as the return policy. When I ask people about that I don't expect to use it, I'm gauging their lack of douche-baggery. If someone says "sure, yeah, you want to try and you'll bring it back exactly the same? OK." then I know they are real. Even if they put up a fight and then they agree, they are real.

So on the cash thing if people said "hell no, I want to see it before you see the cash", they are not real. If they are willing to do the cash up front, they are real.

That's how it worked when I bought/sold motorcycles. No cash, no ride. In fact the rule was you give me the cash and your drivers license, then you go take a ride. Not before.


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 18, 2014)

luckydude said:


> RustyTheGeek said:
> 
> 
> > As for holding cash before holding camera, I like the idea but again, most buyers would be suspicious (and rightly so) that I would do the very same thing, run with the cash while they sit there with a camera box full of newspapers or a brick.
> ...



I follow you. And I agree. I would discuss things first, feel out the buyer and in general, once I feel confident I am dealing with someone trustworthy, I normally agree to a return and I would explain what I look for if it were to happen. And if the camera is brand new, I might ask for a small return fee since it would be used after the fact. All that is legit and reasonable for both parties.

As for the cash holding thing, you gotta admit that riding a motorcycle off into the sunset pretty much requires a cash in hand thing up front. After all, the item is literally leaving your sight and might never return or be crashed. But two people sitting at a table indoors with a small box, the practice could be considered somewhat optional. But I'm not totally disagreeing with you, esp in light of what just happened to me.

Again, my hope is that I learn/practice a better method going forward and everyone else reading this can improve their strategy at the same time. Then my loss will not have been in vain.


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## sagittariansrock (Dec 18, 2014)

luckydude said:


> RustyTheGeek said:
> 
> 
> > As for holding cash before holding camera, I like the idea but again, most buyers would be suspicious (and rightly so) that I would do the very same thing, run with the cash while they sit there with a camera box full of newspapers or a brick.
> ...




You either inspire a lot of confidence, or you are lucky to have worked with very trusting sellers. There is no way I will agree to taking something back from a total stranger on CL for a refund once the item is out of sight. Who knows what could happen in the meantime? I'd say take half an hour, take an hour, test all you want- but once you pay and go away with that item, it doesn't come back to me. 

It is entirely different on FredMiranda, where I will have no problem taking back something the buyer wants to return, provided the buyer has a few reviews and has been active on the site for some time. (it has happened only once when I sold my 5D II- I had forgotten to switch from BBF to shutter release and the buyer thought that the camera wouldn't focus and panicked. I told him I that I can walk him through the steps over the phone but if he doesn't want the hassle I can either take it back for a full refund or pay return shipping, fix it and ship it to him. He was patient enough to save me the expense)

I feel really bad for Rusty, and frankly I am not even that careful. I will often meet on the Patio of Starbucks, where it is quite easy to bolt. Lately I have started meeting in the lobby of my workplace, where there is security and closed circuit cameras, but that is mostly due to convenience (and it is reassuring enough for a buyer who is carrying a bit of cash). But only yesterday I sold my 7D II to a gentleman in the lobby of a bank after it had closed. He was carrying $ 1700, so he was also taking a chance I guess.


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## notapro (Dec 18, 2014)

I have had luck once I get to the point where a meeting happens. Buyers have been right next to me as they've looked over the goods. Once they've finished looking, I'll casually retake possession of the goods, and if they decide to make a purchase, they'll pass me money as I pass them the goods.

I won't let anyone walk away with anything unless I have money first.

Sometimes buyers will provide telephone numbers and names in their initial messages, and I'll look for them on Google.

Recently I sold a 9' x 20' foot black vinyl background (Savage). The tube was big, so there was no chance of the fellow running off with it, and he gave me the money first. In his first message, he sent his name and telephone number, and he picked up the tube at my place. He popped up on Google as someone who works in media and broadcasting. My T3i buyer was a working photographer, provided her work telephone number, a cellular telephone number, used her real name, and had a facebook page. It all came up on Google, so I had her come to my house, too.

When I don't find buyers on a Google search, I'll meet them at a place such as Taco Bell, McDonald's, or in front of a police station.

When selling an X-Rite ColorMunki item, I had buyers send messages asking if they could test the item by installing it on their machines to see if it worked, and if it did, they'd pay me. In my response, I said they could do all the testing they wanted if they paid me in cash first. Only with a non-functioning device would they get their money back. I didn't receive subsequent messages from them.

Sorry to hear of your bad experience. I hope that something from our responses will help you in any future craigslist selling you do.


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## RGF (Dec 18, 2014)

luckydude said:


> RustyTheGeek said:
> 
> 
> > This experience is precisely why I would like to see a way to Buy & Sell here on CR. But I understand it's not easy for the mods, just more work. And CR will have to deal with all the scammers/spammers/trash that having a selling forum attracts.
> ...



I have sold and bought a bit on FM. Nice thing is no fees as % of item's price. Single annual fee which is very reasonable (I think $29?). Paypal if by credit card costs the seller 3% unless the seller tells the buyer to pay it. Otherwise paypal friend which is checking account to checking account without any protection.

eBay after all fees, including paypal, is 12-13%.

I have only sold small items on cragslist -- too much spam for my tastes. Occasionally sell to camera club members - that works well and lots of personal references.


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## RGF (Dec 18, 2014)

notapro said:


> When I don't find buyers on a Google search, I'll meet them at a place such as Taco Bell, McDonald's, or in front of a police station.



Always insist on meeting someone in a busy public place. My favorite is starbucks and I even buy a cup of joe so I am not occupying a seat without buying anything.

Of course, Micky-D works as does nearly any other public area - even library, bank, police station (!), ...My goal is for both parties to feel safe and that the deal is above board and honest.


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## notapro (Dec 18, 2014)

I agree with you on the public place idea, RGF. In the examples I gave, the buyers were unusually "public" in that their places of work matched their telephone numbers, and they also came up on physical address searches.

A police station is nearby my place, so it's convenient. Mentioning it as a meeting place for sale has helped me weed out (I think) some potentially shady buyers.


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## Old Sarge (Dec 18, 2014)

Rusty, not to get your hopes up unnecessarily, but in the DFW area (maybe state wide) all the pawn shops report their buys/pawns on a computer system checked by local police departments. I have seen many items recovered because of that system. In fact, two of my good friends had their pickup burglarized while in their garage and one of their Nikon cameras stolen (D3 I think). About two weeks later they got a call from the detective working the case that it had been located in a pawnshop in Dallas (we live in a far suburb). A property hearing was held and the camera was returned to them. Oddly enough, the telephoto zoom taken the same time (may have been on the camera) was not pawned so they did suffer that loss. That recovery gave police enough information, along with some evidence at the scene, to file a Burglary of a Habitation case on a suspect.

Do you mind if I ask which agency is investigating the case?


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## AcutancePhotography (Dec 18, 2014)

It just seems to me that if anyone has any of these concerns, don't use Craig's list. It is not like that is the only way to sell stuff. 

Is Craig's list really that advantagoius when selling expensive stuff like cameras?


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## jdramirez (Dec 18, 2014)

I meant to bring this up last night... Do you have insurance? Homeowners might cover the theft. Also I have a policy on my gear, and it is General to the device... so I didn't list a serial number. 

So if you have an mkiii covered, this might cover you as well.


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## infared (Dec 18, 2014)

I sell storm doors and surf boards on CL...nothing more.....eBay has hefty fees...but I reach a better audience and don't have to deal with Joe-Public. I live in NJ...and everyone has a sob story...badda bing...badda boom! Know what I mean? A lot of time gets wasted. 8)


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 18, 2014)

Old Sarge said:


> Rusty, not to get your hopes up unnecessarily, but in the DFW area (maybe state wide) all the pawn shops report their buys/pawns on a computer system checked by local police departments. I have seen many items recovered because of that system. In fact, two of my good friends had their pickup burglarized while in their garage and one of their Nikon cameras stolen (D3 I think). About two weeks later they got a call from the detective working the case that it had been located in a pawnshop in Dallas (we live in a far suburb). A property hearing was held and the camera was returned to them. Oddly enough, the telephoto zoom taken the same time (may have been on the camera) was not pawned so they did suffer that loss. That recovery gave police enough information, along with some evidence at the scene, to file a Burglary of a Habitation case on a suspect.
> 
> Do you mind if I ask which agency is investigating the case?



Thanks *OldSarge*. I appreciate your input. No hopes here. I'll wait to be pleasantly surprised. Arlington PD I assume would be investigating. I might drop by the Taco Bell today and see if the manager was contacted yet. I know these things move slowly and I'm also aware of the database. I would be delighted if the thief was stupid enough to try and pawn it but I'll just have to wait and see. And if things did work out like that, I figure it would be months before anything is actually back in my possession. (Meaning, it will be worth a lot less and in 'who knows what' kind of condition, prob missing stuff, no box, etc.)


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 18, 2014)

Okay, so I did another CL transaction today selling my 60D. I sold it to a nice guy for his daughter for Christmas with the Tamron 18-270 lens. This the second time I've sold a camera for a teenage daughter's Christmas because they are learning photography and want to upgrade and get more serious.

Here's the way it played out...

1. He contacted me via the CL email relay, I replied and he gave his phone number, asked me to call him. I looked up the info in his email name and the phone number on Google. (I've always done this.) The search turned up info that looked legitimate, similar to what he provided and local, close to home even.

2. I replied back via the CL email relay, and then I sent a text to his number via a throw away number phone app I have on my phone.

* - I do most of my "detective" work at this stage before I give anything out of value with regard to identity. You can usually tell if someone is legit because they give their contact info, are willing to share things like a work number, address or some other kind of data. They are willing to discuss their photography or why they want to buy. If they ask to meet at odd times, odd places or that this deal is really really important to them because of whatever, their mother is dying, they can't be late to work, they need this badly for their whatever, etc then I am more suspicious. Most scam/con artists/thieves want to keep you on the hook with some kind of heart string sob story urgency crap. The guy that stole my camera said he needed it right away because he couldn't get a 5D3 online delivered before Christmas. That was a red flag and I was suspicious. He didn't try to negotiate the price. Another red flag.

3. Once I was reasonably certain this buyer was legitimate, in this case I was comfortable using my personal cell phone. In most cases, I won't do this so early but in this case, this time I felt confident he wasn't hiding anything and my regular cell phone works a lot better than the VOIP phone app. But if I have to, I'll just keep using the VOIP app until the sale is finished, never revealing any direct contact info.

4. We agreed to meet at the normal Starbucks I use. I arrived 15 minutes early and kept an eye out for folks driving in and coming in. I left the camera in the car.

5.  Once he arrived, we met, introduced ourselves and I calmly asked to see that he brought money and asked to go outside with him and take a smartphone pic of his vehicle license plate that uploads online (in case my phone were stolen). In this case, the lic plate was personalized and matched his email and company name. Pretty legit. Otherwise, I would probably ask that they trigger their door locks or something with their key remote to confirm it is their vehicle. If someone isn't comfortable with either of these requests, I'll simply say goodbye and no one has risked anything. And if they want their own smartphone pic of my license plate, that's fine too.

6. In this case things were pretty much a lock. I could tell he was fine. But normally I would ask them to go back inside and I would go to my car alone and retrieve the camera and bring it in for them to inspect.

* At this point, I have something to identify the buyer that isn't too confidential and I have not allowed them to access the item I am selling until I am sure they are a legitimate buyer who isn't with a gang of thugs or on foot. I am also keeping them away from me when I will be alone with the item so I can't be robbed without witnesses.

7. Once inside with my item, I'll simply sit somewhere away from the exit and stay alert in case they have an accomplice waiting around to snag the item and run. I think most of the time, if someone is planning to steal something, they won't allow #5 above to happen anyway and won't have any money. Once they buy and hand over the money, life is good but I will be careful that I don't get robbed of the cash by someone else who saw the cash or is working with the buyer to retrieve the money later. Who knows, there could be a totally different thief who sees the deal go down and wants the money separate from this transaction.

The bottom line is that once you start assuming that you aren't vulnerable and that things will be okay, you are inviting something to happen like what happened to me. I got lazy, sloppy and I got robbed. If you just practice some basic prevention and be diligent, proactive and watch out for yourself, a lot of problems can be avoided. Thieves work hard to throw you off, make you feel secure and keep you confused or off balance.

No matter what, it's up to you to stay in control and not play the thieves' game.

Hope for the best, Plan for the worst.


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## slclick (Dec 18, 2014)

There is also a 'Photographer Buddy wanted' ad that circulates on CL which is a HUGE red flag for theft. 

Unless you're just lonely.


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## AcutancePhotography (Dec 19, 2014)

Rusty,

You went through all that "mission impossible" stuff just to sell something? Was it worth it? 

Seems like a lot of work and worry. Looking out for accomplices? Really?

You expect them to give you their phone number but you use a throwaway number app??

Why would you ever use Craig's list if you have such worries?

It's your stuff and your decision and I respect that. But if I had any of these concerns, I would not use Craig's list. 

Do you ever get a friend with a CCW to wait in the background in case the "deal" goes bad? ;D


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## dgatwood (Dec 25, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> Do you ever get a friend with a CCW to wait in the background in case the "deal" goes bad? ;D



I feel like there's a Firefly quote here somewhere.


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 25, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> Rusty,
> 
> You went through all that "mission impossible" stuff just to sell something? Was it worth it?
> 
> ...



It's been busy and I didn't notice this reply but now that Christmas is here and I'm pretty caught up and chillin' I've had a chance to look at CR again.

I think *AcutancePhotography's* post deserves a quick reply...

Yes, it is a bit of work and worry. (But not too much.) I realize it seems like I'm going overboard with precautions or that I seem overly paranoid. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how you choose to sell something, there is possible risk of loss and trouble involved with every method. With ebay, you will pay more in fees and risk someone lying about you as a seller and in the worst case, costing you your item and also your payment due to an ebay buyer protection refund. It has happened.

With Craigslist, I have recently experienced a simple but costly theft in broad daylight. Fortunately there was no violence involved but it could have been prevented by taking precautions. If I am selling a $50 widget, you are correct, all the precautions I mention are probably pointless. But with a $3000+ camera or lens, recent events have proven that I need to be more careful. Not selling on CL may be one choice but I don't like to give up or quit, I like to adapt, solve the problem and carry on to achieve my goal. In this case, my goal is to sell my stuff and not get ripped off.

As for the throw away number... think about it. You are dealing with total strangers. After you deal with a few, you start to realize there are a lot of irritating people out there (at best) and some folks are downright creepy/dangerous (at worst). Until I feel comfortable giving out a real/permanent contact method, I want to have the ability to totally cut them off if I need to without it causing me a lot of trouble/grief in the process.

CCW (Concealed Carry Weapon) - While I do have a license for this in Texas, I rarely carry. I go too many places where it's still prohibited. (Churches, public schools, boy scout property, etc.) And unless I am facing a lethal threat, I can't pull it out anyway. However, after I was robbed, I did give it more thought, that's a fact.

Again, I feel it is best to HOPE FOR THE BEST BUT PLAN FOR THE WORST.

And you're right, taking steps to mitigate problems ahead of time isn't for everyone. In that case, it probably is best to simply avoid selling with a anonymous system like CraigsList.


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