# *UPDATE* More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 12, 2011)

```
<strong>*UPDATE* No IS in a new 24-70L ?</strong>

A couple of folks have come forward and said we wonâ€™t see IS in a new 24-70L.</p>
<p>Remember <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2010/10/canon-ef-24-70-f2-8l-ii-patent/">this patent</a>? Thereâ€™s no IS.</p>
<p><strong>5D Mark III</strong>

Some more clarification about the upcoming 5D Mark III. It will be moving a bit more high end with an improved 7D AF system. Expect it November/December 2011.<strong> </strong></p>
<p><strong>1D Mark V</strong>

The next version will be moving into the 1Ds territory as the new high end digital SLR. Expect it to be fullframe by the sounds of it. Late 2011/early 2012. No specs finalized yet.<strong> </strong></p>
<p><strong>24-70 f/2.8L IS</strong>

Itâ€™s coming and will be announced with a camera body at the end of 2011.Ã‚ I havenâ€™t heard a peep about the lens in a while.</p>
<p><strong>100-400</strong>

An interesting tale about this lens. Apparently the replacement has been canned and is being redesigned.<strong> </strong></p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong>
```


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## Bob Howland (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*

Still no Lord of Darkness camera to compete with the D3s at ISO51,200 and beyond?!? The original D3 was introduced in 2007!


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## niko (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*

It will be interesting to see if Canon has flipped to offensive mode (rather than defensive) and push the envelope rather than compete with what is now 2-3 year old tech.


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## Macadameane (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*

Makes me a little gladder that I went ahead and invested in the 7D recently while I wait for what I really want... full frame. In the meantime, I will enjoy the 8 fps, which speed I'm 90% sure the 5DIII will not match.


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## CJRodgers (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*

How high end i wonder.?! Hope i can still afford one if i haven't already bought the 5d mkii by then!


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



Canon Rumors said:


> 24-70 f/2.8L IS Itâ€™s coming and will be announced with a camera body at the end of 2011.



Is there an echo in here? Because this sounds an awful lots like the Feb 18, 2010 rumor, also CR2, and saying pretty much the same thing...



Canon Rumors said:


> 100-400 An interesting tale about this lens. Apparently the replacement has been canned and is being redesigned.



I've stated before that from a marketing standpoint, the new 70-300mm L is the replacement for the 100-400. If this rumor is true, it seems that the R&D team finally got reality explained to them...


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## Osiris30 (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*

Obviously the market is speaking and there apparently just isn't *enough* of a demand for such a thing. If there was Canon would listen to it. That said, don't assume Canon won't add that functionality in other ways with their next FF sensor.

Rather than a Lord of Darkness cam, how about 'One Cam to Rule Them All' 





Bob Howland said:


> Still no Lord of Darkness camera to compete with the D3s at ISO51,200 and beyond?!? The original D3 was introduced in 2007!


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## Osiris30 (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



CJRodgers said:


> How high end i wonder.?! Hope i can still afford one if i haven't already bought the 5d mkii by then!



Who is to say the Mk II will be discontinued. Last I checked it made great images for it's intended target market. If you *need* more, then you can and will pay more.


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## BlackEagle (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*

High Endâ€¦ Well I hope it is still in my price range cause mark II was already pushing the limits for me in terms of price...

End of Nov or 2012..Then sorry Canon but I will have to start considering the FF cameras that Nikon or even Sony will release in 2011 if it turns out to be that long of a wait. I have no intention of committing to 3 year old technology when I am paying that much money for a body and I cannot wait forever for the mark III either cause my baby girls is growing really fast  For some of you it might not be that big of a money but for me it is. I am no professional, actually I am not even an advanced amateur  (but I am committed into becoming an advanced amateur though  ) so 2500$ for a body is aâ€™ lot of money for me and I will have to probably use it for at least 4, 5 years to justify the cost. Actually that is why I don't want to buy 3 year old technology cause it will be prehistoric by the time I get a chance to upgrade.. Maybe I'll push my limits another 200, 300 dollars but that's about it. So, Cannon listen to a potential customer here. Don't go crazy with the price and don't keep us waiting forever or you'll lose my business to Nikon or Sony 

BTW, I donâ€™t need all that nerd stuff like RAW video or 4k video, etc. All I want is better AF, similar pricing, continuous AF or at least usable AF in video mode, better low light performance, maybe improved video (but doesnâ€™t have to be a RED killer) and built-in flash (you donâ€™t always carry a flash gun around)...

People please donâ€™t tell me to switch to 7D cause I want to stick with full-frame..


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



BlackEagle said:


> BTW, I donâ€™t need all that nerd stuff like RAW video or 4k video, etc. All I want is better AF, similar pricing, continuous AF or at least usable AF in video mode, better low light performance, maybe improved video (but doesnâ€™t have to be a RED killer) and built-in flash (you donâ€™t always carry a flash gun around)...



That sounds like quite a few improvements...don't get your hopes up.  Personally, I'll settle for better AF and hope for improved ISO performance - but, the current 5DII takes great pictures!

Regarding the built-in flash, heck no! About the only thing it's good for is a little bit of fill light for a portrait on a sunny day. If I want the 'deer in the headlights' look to go along with the harsh lighting and red-eye, I'll just use a point and shoot... Also, I'm not interested in sacrificing the viewfinder magnification - a smaller pentaprism would be needed to make room for the pop-up flash (which is why you don't find them on the 1D, 1Ds, or 5D series bodies).


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## x-vision (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



Osiris30 said:


> Rather than a Lord of Darkness cam, how about 'One Cam to Rule Them All'



Exactly - and that's the idea of moving the 1D-series to full frame (and effectively merging the 1-series). 

These are very plausible rumors. 

Because of the move to FF, the price of the new 1DV will likely go up to $5.5-6K.
The 5D will have to move upmarket too to maybe $3K or even more. 

All that will leave the 7D as the entry-level pro camera. 
Hopefully it will have a matching image quality for its new role.


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## CJRodgers (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*

@Osiris30

Im saving a camera for the end of the year. I want the 5dmkii because i love the video and photos it produces. All the short films i find shot on this are so inspiring. However if the 5dmkiii was on the horizon with the possibility of reduced moire and aliasing, then i would hold out for it. But if its far too expensive then i wouldnt be able to afford many lenses, so my choice would be the 5d mk ii but i would be worried about the moire and aliasing which is why people keep telling me to get the GH2. But i just love the look from the canons.


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## Bob Howland (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



Osiris30 said:


> Obviously the market is speaking and there apparently just isn't *enough* of a demand for such a thing. If there was Canon would listen to it. That said, don't assume Canon won't add that functionality in other ways with their next FF sensor.
> 
> Rather than a Lord of Darkness cam, how about 'One Cam to Rule Them All'
> 
> ...



It almost sounds like that is what Canon wants the 1DMk5 to be. As for the level of market demand, I would argue that Canon tried to make us think that the 1DMk4 was their LOD camera by putting in ISO102K. Also, if Canon is moving their 5DMk3 body upmarket, there is no reason why they couldn't use the same body with a different sensor, one optimized for high ISO image quality and dramatically increased dynamic range. Anything over my 5D's 12.8MP would be fine.


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## BlackEagle (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*

Well a built-in flash is not a big deal for me either and definetly not a deal breaker  even with point and shoots I try to turn it off as much as possible...but I thought it wouldn't hurt to have one for some situations 

All the the other stuff I wrote is not really extreme things when you think that they had 3 years to improve this camera.. Improved ISO, better AF, improved video and a usable AF in video mode..I mean if they are not going to improve the video, AF and ISO then what's the point in releasing an upgrade?

BTW when I say improved video I don't really mean it should be a RED killer or the videographers perfect go to camera..Just fix some of the glitches in the current version and put a usable AF that makes it easier to record video would be good enough for me..I would probably still do manual focusing for most of the time but hey sometimes I might feel lazy


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## Bob Howland (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



x-vision said:


> Osiris30 said:
> 
> 
> > Rather than a Lord of Darkness cam, how about 'One Cam to Rule Them All'
> ...



I can see a merged 1D with a binned 50MP sensor and capable of (1) replacing a 1DMk4, (2) competing with the 40MP MF cameras and (3) doing 4K video costing (and being worth) $8000-$10,000. As for the 7D being "entry level", I see it instead being the camera of choice for sports photographers shooting outdoors with long lenses in good light, the niche currently filled by the 1DMk4.


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## x-vision (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



Bob Howland said:


> I can see a merged 1D with a binned 50MP sensor and capable of (1) replacing a 1DMk4, (2) competing with the 40MP MF cameras and (3) doing 4K video costing (and being worth) $8000-$10,000. As for the 7D being "entry level", I see it instead being the camera of choice for sports photographers shooting outdoors with long lenses in good light, the niche currently filled by the 1DMk4.



50mp is too much for the 'rule them all' 1D series. 

Canon will have a separate camera with 50mp + 4K video. The S1 or something (S=studio). 
It won't have the 1D series full body (with an integrated grip) but will be priced at $10K indeed. 

Other than that, I agree that the 7D will fill the niche currently filled by the 1DMk4.


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## niko (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



Bob Howland said:


> I can see a merged 1D with a binned 50MP sensor and capable of (1) replacing a 1DMk4, (2) competing with the 40MP MF cameras and (3) doing 4K video costing (and being worth) $8000-$10,000. As for the 7D being "entry level", I see it instead being the camera of choice for sports photographers shooting outdoors with long lenses in good light, the niche currently filled by the 1DMk4.



Canon would need to introdude some siginificant hardware improvements with the data throughput required for large sensor/high FPS.

Also is the market ready for the price shock that will inevitably come with the merging of the lines and are consumers willing to spend that amount for feature(s) that they are potentially not using - e.g., high FPS and/or high MPs? It is difficult to predict at this time, however I believe that segmentation still makes sense since however the tiered price/feature structure needs to be re-eavaluated/modified to make it more relevant.


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## kubelik (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*

For me personally, I would absolutely purchase a 5D Mark III for ~$3500 if it comes with 7D AF, even more robust construction, 5 FPS, and some improved video capabilities. A 2/3rd stop improvement in noise and bump in dynamic range should happen as well. Can't wait for the new telephoto lenses to drop first, whatever the manufacturing problem was it sounds pretty major if its holding up the entire canon lineup


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## mws (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



Canon Rumors said:


> *24-70 f/2.8L IS*
> Itâ€™s coming and will be announced with a camera body at the end of 2011.Ã‚ I havenâ€™t heard a peep about the lens in a while.



Iâ€™m really hoping to hear some more on this, or at least a better idea of the time frame involved.

I recently bought the 70-200 2.8/L II and itâ€™s just freaking amazing. Was hoping that the new 24-70 would comparable in quality. At this rate, I may just have to buy the current 24-70 and sell it once the new one is out, wonder what kind of price hit the current 24-70 will takeâ€¦..

Anyone have any good suggestions for a lense in this range in the meantime? Right now I have the 28-135 IS that came with my 50D, which I really donâ€™t care for, not all that sharp, and the IS is so useless I leave it turned off.


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## olav (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*

If -and that's a big if- they improve fps and DR / sensor noise the 5dmk3 will be great, if not i might as well buy a Sigma SD1 if the specs turn out to be good as promised. And the lower price will get me a few Sigma lenses!


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



mws said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > *24-70 f/2.8L IS*
> ...



Unless you're planning on getting a FF body in the very near future, the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS is a truly excellent lens for a 1.6x body like the 50D. The image quality of the 17-55mm is equivalent to L lenses, although the build quality is not quite at that level. The combination of 17-55mm and the 70-200mm II that you have would give you f/2.8 coverage from 17-200mm.

If you shoot mostly outdoors (or use a flash indoors), you might also consider the EF-S 15-85mm - it's optically excellent and has a broader focal range, with the tradeoff being a variable (and slow) aperture.


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## homerfreak (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*

5D III with 7D AF and a FF 1D V? And a 24-70 2.8 IS? That just sounds wonderful  I would be really interested in the 5D III. Looking forward to it


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## dyckim (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*

Currently own 7d 70-200 2.8 is ii usm and 50 1.2. Cannot wait to get 24-70 is, the new 100-400, and an upgrade to ff 5d mark iii.


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## dyckim (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*

I hope they make the 100-400 at f/4 all the way with twist and turn~


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## Osiris30 (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



CJRodgers said:


> @Osiris30
> 
> Im saving a camera for the end of the year. I want the 5dmkii because i love the video and photos it produces. All the short films i find shot on this are so inspiring. However if the 5dmkiii was on the horizon with the possibility of reduced moire and aliasing, then i would hold out for it. But if its far too expensive then i wouldnt be able to afford many lenses, so my choice would be the 5d mk ii but i would be worried about the moire and aliasing which is why people keep telling me to get the GH2. But i just love the look from the canons.



I get it, but I think if the MK III is a *big* step up the MK II will likely stay in production. Maybe even get an 'n' designation with a few slight tweaks. The reality is; camera tech is pretty much good enough as it is today for 95% of the shooting population and we're getting into a land of *very* specialized diminishing returns.


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## unfocused (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



dyckim said:


> I hope they make the 100-400 at f/4 all the way with twist and turn~


I'd like everything except the $6,000 price tag that would come with it.


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## Osiris30 (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



Bob Howland said:


> Osiris30 said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously the market is speaking and there apparently just isn't *enough* of a demand for such a thing. If there was Canon would listen to it. That said, don't assume Canon won't add that functionality in other ways with their next FF sensor.
> ...



I still think you'll see a big MP FF sensor at the top end with pixel binning on chip. This will give you both your super high-res @ base ISO and your insane low light camera... all without need to design/produce two bodies, sensors, etc. Reality is; if you *need* ISO 102,000, you *do not* need 40mp to do it. You aren't going to do billboard shoots @ ISO 102,400. If you are 'smart' you build a sensor that can do both.


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## kubelik (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



unfocused said:


> dyckim said:
> 
> 
> > I hope they make the 100-400 at f/4 all the way with twist and turn~
> ...



maybe a 150-450 f/4-5.6 ... that would clash a lot less with the new 70-300 L, still be fairly portable, and improve on the optics of the current 100-400, without killing your budget. I'm guessing Canon could release one of these with the latest IS version and charge somewhere in the 2000+ range for it


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## Grendel (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*

Hm, a new 24-70 would make sense as a kit lens for the 5DIII. Looking forward to both !


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## dyckim (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*

But a kit lens for 5d mark iii along with 24-70 is would probably cost around 4500 $. I don't think its likely they will put a 24-70 is as a kit lens. They can definately sell it more separately seeming that this lens will have a high demand.


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## Bob Howland (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



unfocused said:


> dyckim said:
> 
> 
> > I hope they make the 100-400 at f/4 all the way with twist and turn~
> ...



Some of use would pay it, gladly. Hell, I'd pay $10,000 for a 200-500 f/2.8-4, especially if they could keep the maximum aperture at f/2.8 from 200mm to 350mm. (350mm/2.8 = 500mm/4 = 125mm)



Osiris30 said:


> Bob Howland said:
> 
> 
> > Osiris30 said:
> ...



Exactly!!! The key phrase is "pixel binning on chip". Unfortunately, I don't know enough about binning to understand how and where it can/should be done.


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## Lawliet (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



Bob Howland said:


> Exactly!!! The key phrase is "pixel binning on chip". Unfortunately, I don't know enough about binning to understand how and where it can/should be done.



Even better would be "pixel binning by demosaicing matrix". No issues with aliasing, some additional color resolution, and less wiring that would be prone to cross talk. Add more readout channels to give the amps & AD-converters enough time to do their jobs.


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## Waleed Essam (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



Canon Rumors said:


> <strong>5D Mark III</strong>
> 
> Some more clarification about the upcoming 5D Mark III. It will be moving a bit more high end with an improved 7D AF system. Expect it November/December 2011.<strong> </strong></p>
> <p><strong>1D Mark V</strong>
> ...



It feels a bit weird to me that everything is November/December! Maybe you mean available in markets in Nov/Dec & not announced? I doubt Canon will past PMA 2011 in September without any SLR announcements.


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## WarStreet (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



kubelik said:


> For me personally, I would absolutely purchase a 5D Mark III for ~$3500 if it comes with 7D AF, even more robust construction, 5 FPS, and some improved video capabilities. A 2/3rd stop improvement in noise and bump in dynamic range should happen as well. Can't wait for the new telephoto lenses to drop first, whatever the manufacturing problem was it sounds pretty major if its holding up the entire canon lineup




This is exactly what I am expecting but with 4fps and doubts about the price. I think it will be available late 2011 or early 2012.

I like Canon strategy of replacing their cameras position, similar of what they did with the 60D. Cameras are finite. What I mean is that there is no need to bypass our eyes resolving power, or our maximum functionality needs. A PC is never fast enough, but there is a limit of what we need from a camera. If the AF can track servo without a glitch, in low light, how it can be improved ? Clean ISO 204800 is not enough ? Even resolution has a limit for whatever size of print, since our resolving power, angle of view, print size and distance are all related. I am assuming you won't watch a print by turning your neck to view the borders 

Therefore, since cameras are finite, how could canon improve the 5DIII without damaging the 1DS series ? Only by merging 1DS with 1D with a price a bit above the 1DIV. They can't force the current 1D pro users to pay much higher prices. It is a possibility that the new merged 1D to be an FF high res camera with 5fps, with 1.3 crop ability reaching 10fps? With this, canon can give the 5DIII a 7D AF without a problem, since it will still be a 4fps camera, without special functionality and durability of the 1D, and the price difference with the new 1D is smaller too. The more we get near the limit of what we need, the more the prices will drop. The 60D is an example, and I feel the new 1Ds/1D will be next. I have doubts about the pricing of the 5DIII. 

This is just what I am predicting, but I am 100% sure that I will get the 5DIII


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



neuroanatomist said:


> Is there an echo in here? Because this sounds an awful lots like the Feb 18, 2010 rumor, also CR2, and saying pretty much the same thing...



That set of rumors is what changed how I do things, I'm still embarrassed by that. Thanks for the dagger.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



Canon Rumors said:


> Thanks for the dagger.



Sorry... :-[ 

As Miracle Max stated, "_...thank you so much for bringing up such a painful subject. While you're at it, why don't you give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice on it?_"


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## kubelik (Jan 13, 2011)

speaking of that rumor, I'm still wondering if and when that rumored new flash unit is going to show up ...


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## ronderick (Jan 13, 2011)

I guess that's what everyone's looking forward to this year: the release of the 5D3.

If everything goes by schedule, I'd wager Canon announcing the camera in September at PMA and the new producting hitting the market in November to prepare for the Christmas season. Now, if they move the 5D3 up one notch to the 3K mark, there's probably another model to take the "affordable FF" rank (otherwise, I can't imagine them giving up the 2.5K category to Nikon - especially with D800 right around the corner).

As for kit lens, I would imagine a redesign of the 24-105L somewhere down the road. Since the original one was released as the kit for 5D in 2005, it's about time - especially with the recent 24-120 from Nikon). IMHO, the 24-105L is wwwaaaayyyy more versatile than the 24-70L and a more sound candidate for the kit lens.


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## JLN (Jan 13, 2011)

ronderick said:


> If everything goes by schedule, I'd wager Canon announcing the camera in September at PMA and the new producting hitting the market in November to prepare for the Christmas season. Now, if they move the 5D3 up one notch to the 3K mark, there's probably another model to take the "affordable FF" rank (otherwise, I can't imagine them giving up the 2.5K category to Nikon - especially with D800 right around the corner).



i'd expect the 5d2 to take the spot as the "affordable FF", seems pretty straight forward. 
Drop the price of the 5d2 a few $100, introduce a 5d3 at a higher price point and have both selling for a period of time.


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## jsixpack (Jan 13, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



neuroanatomist said:


> Regarding the built-in flash, heck no! About the only thing it's good for is a little bit of fill light for a portrait on a sunny day. If I want the 'deer in the headlights' look to go along with the harsh lighting and red-eye, I'll just use a point and shoot... Also, I'm not interested in sacrificing the viewfinder magnification - a smaller pentaprism would be needed to make room for the pop-up flash (which is why you don't find them on the 1D, 1Ds, or 5D series bodies).



Ahh, but the built-in flash on the 7d is ALSO a wireless controller, and that's a cool and useful feature that I'd love to have on a 5dIII

JSP


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## dyckim (Jan 13, 2011)

I hope they incorporate the 24-70 is on it. It will still be an absolute monster of a lens without it..


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## torger (Jan 13, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



jsixpack said:


> Ahh, but the built-in flash on the 7d is ALSO a wireless controller, and that's a cool and useful feature that I'd love to have on a 5dIII
> 
> JSP



Yes I use the 7D bulti-in as a wireless controller a lot, have never used it as a direct flash (so far  ). However, I've understood that built in flash is a bit of a compromise concerning weatherproofing, so on a more high end camera I rather do without.


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## Grummbeerbauer (Jan 13, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



unfocused said:


> dyckim said:
> 
> 
> > I hope they make the 100-400 at f/4 all the way with twist and turn~
> ...



And the 3++kg weight.  Just look at the Nikon 200-400 f4.


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## torger (Jan 13, 2011)

ronderick said:


> As for kit lens, I would imagine a redesign of the 24-105L somewhere down the road. Since the original one was released as the kit for 5D in 2005, it's about time - especially with the recent 24-120 from Nikon). IMHO, the 24-105L is wwwaaaayyyy more versatile than the 24-70L and a more sound candidate for the kit lens.



Of course, the more zoom range you have the more "versatile" it is. I consider F/4 to be a problem though, I'd rather have F/2.8 and less zoom. The other point is optical quality. The current 24-70/2.8 is better than the 24-105, and I guess the shorter zoom range makes it easier to make good quality. If you tend to do shoots that gain from good optical quality (like tripod-mounted landscape shoots), then the quality part adds versatility.

As the megapixel count go up, it also becomes more important with high optical quality.


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## Grendel (Jan 13, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



torger said:


> jsixpack said:
> 
> 
> > Ahh, but the built-in flash on the 7d is ALSO a wireless controller, and that's a cool and useful feature that I'd love to have on a 5dIII
> ...



AFAIK there's no room for a flash in the hump -- the FF pentaprism fills it pretty much up.


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## foobar (Jan 13, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



Bob Howland said:


> Some of use would pay it, gladly. Hell, I'd pay $10,000 for a 200-500 f/2.8-4, especially if they could keep the maximum aperture at f/2.8 from 200mm to 350mm. (350mm/2.8 = 500mm/4 = 125mm)


Maybe this is what you're looking for: http://www.sigmaphoto.com/shop/200-500mm-f28-apo-ex-dg-sigma


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## JLN (Jan 13, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



Grendel said:


> AFAIK there's no room for a flash in the hump -- the FF pentaprism fills it pretty much up.



It should be possible with a slight redesign, the d700 uses a FF pentaprism and fits a flash.


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## Canon 14-24 (Jan 13, 2011)

Like how people hoped the features of the 7d would be in the 60d, I would predict the same thing is going to happen with Canon in the FF segment (5D3 and 3D anyone?). 

Save the 5D3 for later and put out a 3D in a higher price bracket ($2999.99 or 3499.99 seem fair starting prices body only). Give it 100% viewfinder coverage, built in wireless, throw in a couple more pixels, iso-stop improvement, 60fps and video crop features?, and improved AF like how the 7D did on top of the xxD series.


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## Grummbeerbauer (Jan 13, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



WarStreet said:


> Therefore, since cameras are finite, how could canon improve the 5DIII without damaging the 1DS series ? Only by merging 1DS with 1D with a price a bit above the 1DIV. They can't force the current 1D pro users to pay much higher prices. It is a possibility that the new merged 1D to be an FF high res camera with 5fps, with 1.3 crop ability reaching 10fps? With this, canon can give the 5DIII a 7D AF without a problem, since it will still be a 4fps camera, without special functionality and durability of the 1D, and the price difference with the new 1D is smaller too. The more we get near the limit of what we need, the more the prices will drop. The 60D is an example, and I feel the new 1Ds/1D will be next. I have doubts about the pricing of the 5DIII.
> 
> This is just what I am predicting, but I am 100% sure that I will get the 5DIII




You think too much like a Canon executive, and to little like a Canon customer. 

After all, Nikon has the D700, which (with battery grip) came pretty close to Nikon's top model at the time of its appearance -- same AF system as D3, very high fps with grip (8fps, 5fps without), same resolution. And it seems Nikon was still selling D3(s) at that time. 
I feel that a 5D Mk.III (although I think it might end up being the infamous "3D", see below) should compete with a D700 (or rather its successor), i.e., should offer an improved AF and higher FPS. At the same price point as the D700(or successor) I am willing trade some of the D700 extra fps and some of its 50+ AF points for the higher res of the 5D Mk.II. So they should make it 24+MP, give it the 7D AF and spec it at ~6fps (if it were 8fps I wouldn't mind, though ). 
And about damaging the 1Ds series: the 1Ds Mk.III is begging for a replacement, so while a 5D Mk.III as I sketched it above would of course overshadow the current Mk.III in many aspects, the overdue 1Ds Mk.IV will restore order in Canon's camera line up.

This camera will definitely be a tad more expensive than the current 5D MkII (yes, despite Nikon having the D700 at a price below the 5D Mk.II, which beats the 5D Mk.II in every regard except resolution, canon will try to continue with their customer rip off). 
However, with that spec, there would be space for for a 5DMk.IIn (essentially the current one, perhaps the same sensor as the camera I sketched above), but lower fps, simpler AF, but adding some of the gimmicks of the day (in particular a 3:2 screen and the movie switch from the 7D).
This camera could then continue occupying the price point of the current 5DMk.II or D700.


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## Bob Howland (Jan 13, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



foobar said:


> Bob Howland said:
> 
> 
> > Some of use would pay it, gladly. Hell, I'd pay $10,000 for a 200-500 f/2.8-4, especially if they could keep the maximum aperture at f/2.8 from 200mm to 350mm. (350mm/2.8 = 500mm/4 = 125mm)
> ...



I was thinking of something weighing a little less than the current 400 f/2.8. The Sigma lens weighs more than the Canon 200 f/2, 300 f/2.8, 400 f/2.8 and 500 f/4 lenses combined. Its front element has to be at least 178mm or 53mm more than the 500 f/4 and my proposed zoom and 28mm more than the 600 f/4.


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## kubelik (Jan 13, 2011)

Bob, any idea of how to do a rough calculation to see if that would be possible? I have no idea how these things are formulated but it seems wild that a 2.5x zoom with the same max aperture as a prime would be able to weigh less than the prime?


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## Bob Howland (Jan 13, 2011)

kubelik said:


> Bob, any idea of how to do a rough calculation to see if that would be possible? I have no idea how these things are formulated but it seems wild that a 2.5x zoom with the same max aperture as a prime would be able to weigh less than the prime?



The "free aperture" of a lens, meaning the diameter of the lens aperture "hole" can be calculated by dividing the lens focal length (350mm) by the f-value [f/2.8]. The front element of a lens must be at least as large as its free aperture [which is why the 120-300 f/2.8 Sigma isn't a 120-300 f/2.8] and the weight of a telephoto lens is largely determined by its focal length and the size of its front elements. With a zoom, the calculation has to be made at multiple focal lengths but the worst case is almost always the longest focal length and the f-value at that focal length. This is always true for lenses with fixed maximum apertures. For example, for the 200-500 f/2.8, the clear aperture is 71mm at 200mm and 178mm at 500mm. For my proposed lens, the clear aperture is 71mm at 200mm and 125mm at 350mm through 500mm.

For my proposed lens, I am making the "simplifying assumption" that (a) the larger free aperture of the 400 f/2.8 and (b) the longer maximum focal length and fact that my lens is a zoom will largely cancel each other out when estimating weight.

A lot of people seem to think of fixed maximum apertures as some sort of Holy Grail. I think it's very overrated for telephoto lenses. Consider the benefits of having a 120-300 f/2-2.8 that is still f/2 at 210mm, a 200-500 f/2.8-4 that is still f/2.8 at 350mm and a 300-800 f/4-5.6 that is still f/4 at 560mm. Whether lenses could actually be designed like that is another question but, hey, I'm just a frustrated marketing guru.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 13, 2011)

Bob Howland said:


> A lot of people seem to think of fixed maximum apertures as some sort of Holy Grail. I think it's very overrated for telephoto lenses.



For those who shoot in Manual mode, a variable aperture is a pain in the butt. If you use an autoexposure mode (Av, Tv), it's much less of an issue. I wouldn't say that it's overrated, though - a fixed aperture telezoom means one that's faster at the long end, meaning more useful in low-light situations, or sharper if you stop down since you're not shooting wide open at the long end.

But, I agree that people don't consider the tradeoffs - for example, would people who complain about the variable aperture of the Canon 100-400mm lens and wish it was a constant f/4 _really_ want it to be 15" long and weigh 8 pounds, not to mention costing several thousand dollars more? I think most people who want that constant aperture want it without having to pay the premium in weight and cost.


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## kubelik (Jan 13, 2011)

Interesting info; thanks for sharing that. Speaking of the sigmas, that's where I got the idea of a 150-450 f/4-5.6. Sigma puts out numerous lenses roughly in that range but doesn't quite do any of them really right. Perhaps a 200-500 f/4-5.6? Both of these would have much easier focal length ratios to deal with, a larger max aperture at equivalent length to the existing 100-400, and justify the sticker price that would inevitably be a >50% increase over the 100-400. Beyond that, these should be not only lighter than the 400 f/2.8, they should be lighter than the 300 f/2.8.

Most of all, if sigma can do at least a decent job with these lenses (as they've shown they can), canon should be able to make something really stunning out of these focal lengths


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## stark-arts (Jan 13, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



torger said:


> jsixpack said:
> 
> 
> > Ahh, but the built-in flash on the 7d is ALSO a wireless controller, and that's a cool and useful feature that I'd love to have on a 5dIII
> ...


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## Bob Howland (Jan 13, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> For those who shoot in Manual mode, a variable aperture is a pain in the butt. If you use an autoexposure mode (Av, Tv), it's much less of an issue. I wouldn't say that it's overrated, though - a fixed aperture telezoom means one that's faster at the long end, meaning more useful in low-light situations, or sharper if you stop down since you're not shooting wide open at the long end.
> 
> But, I agree that people don't consider the tradeoffs - for example, would people who complain about the variable aperture of the Canon 100-400mm lens and wish it was a constant f/4 _really_ want it to be 15" long and weigh 8 pounds, not to mention costing several thousand dollars more? I think most people who want that constant aperture want it without having to pay the premium in weight and cost.



When using my 100-400 in manual, I make sure that I initially set the aperture at 400mm. Since the maximum aperture there is f/5.6 and I'm setting the aperture at the camera not at the lens, the lens stays at f/5.6 when I zoom. (The opposite is true at minimum aperture, i.e., f/22-f/32. It has to be set at 100mm.) Back when I was using an FTb (manual focus and manual exposure), yes, you're right. variable aperture in a zoom would have been a real pain, which is probably why I never owned a variable aperture zoom until I bought the 100-400.


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## OnteoEOS (Jan 13, 2011)

Makes sense moving the 5D in the higher market and merging the 1D series.

I would not be surprised if the 7D moved to APSH


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## c.d.embrey (Jan 13, 2011)

Why do Canon owners want prosumer (hate the word) 7D focus, while Nikon owners get the same Pro focus/metering as the D3s with the D700.

Time to vote with your money. If the 5D III isn't what you want, DON"T BUY IT! And be very vocal about why you don't buy it!

I'm not advocating switching to Nikon. Just keep using your present camera, and write letters to Canon explaining why you aren't wasting your money on their new model. BTW Snail-Mail is much more effective than E-Mail.


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## Justin (Jan 13, 2011)

Honestly, if there is no IS in a 24-70 refresh I am going to be extremely disappointed. It makes no sense to put it in the standard zoom lens APS-C compatible lens, but not the full frame equivalent.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 13, 2011)

Justin said:


> It makes no sense to put it in the standard zoom lens APS-C compatible lens, but not the full frame equivalent.



It's already in the FF equivalent of the 17-55mm f/2.8 IS - that lens has a FF equivalent focal length and DoF for equivalent framing as a 27-88mm f/4.5 lens, so actually the 24-105mm f/4L IS used on a FF camera is wider, longer, and faster than the 17-55mm f/2.8 used on a 1.6x crop body.


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## Lawliet (Jan 13, 2011)

For professional users the question isn't "Is the camera what I want?" but rather "Will it increase my income". An there are a lot of sujets where the 5D performs just fine, making that a moot point. It will sell.


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## Justin (Jan 13, 2011)

I agree with all of this. I guess Canon feels they will sabotage their $10k+ lenses with this strategy. The wildlife shooters and sports photogs will still want the fastest glass though. 

Alternatively a decent 600 5.6 would be so welcome. 



kubelik said:


> Interesting info; thanks for sharing that. Speaking of the sigmas, that's where I got the idea of a 150-450 f/4-5.6. Sigma puts out numerous lenses roughly in that range but doesn't quite do any of them really right. Perhaps a 200-500 f/4-5.6? Both of these would have much easier focal length ratios to deal with, a larger max aperture at equivalent length to the existing 100-400, and justify the sticker price that would inevitably be a >50% increase over the 100-400. Beyond that, these should be not only lighter than the 400 f/2.8, they should be lighter than the 300 f/2.8.
> 
> Most of all, if sigma can do at least a decent job with these lenses (as they've shown they can), canon should be able to make something really stunning out of these focal lengths


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## Justin (Jan 13, 2011)

I think this is what Canon should do, but I doubt the will. Especially if the merged 1D series rumors pan out. It doesn't make sense to have that many pro bodies. 



Canon 14-24 said:


> Like how people hoped the features of the 7d would be in the 60d, I would predict the same thing is going to happen with Canon in the FF segment (5D3 and 3D anyone?).
> 
> Save the 5D3 for later and put out a 3D in a higher price bracket ($2999.99 or 3499.99 seem fair starting prices body only). Give it 100% viewfinder coverage, built in wireless, throw in a couple more pixels, iso-stop improvement, 60fps and video crop features?, and improved AF like how the 7D did on top of the xxD series.


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## WarStreet (Jan 13, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



Grummbeerbauer said:


> You think too much like a Canon executive, and to little like a Canon customer.



Who said I am not ? ;D



Grummbeerbauer said:


> After all, Nikon has the D700, which (with battery grip) came pretty close to Nikon's top model at the time of its appearance -- same AF system as D3, very high fps with grip (8fps, 5fps without), same resolution. And it seems Nikon was still selling D3(s) at that time.



Interesting argument, but if I am not wrong with the pricing of the cameras, I believe you are actually agreeing with me. Pricing of the D3 competes with the 1D, while the higher priced D3X competes with the 1Ds. Canon and Nikon have different strategies for their low end FF, D700 fast camera, 5DII high res camera. Therefore D700 can only compete with a D3. High res D3X users won't consider the D700. On the other hand, the 5DII can only compete with a 1Ds. while no action 1D users will consider the 5DII. But the D700 + grip vs D3 price difference is much smaller than the 5DII vs 1Ds price difference. Canon's low end FF strategy, make it difficult for them to upgrade the 5DIII without decreasing the 1Ds price. The merging of 1Ds and 1D with price similar to the 1D is a good solution. I guess , it is cheaper for them to merge these cameras instead producing 2 cameras with a decreased price of the future 1Ds. Both Canon and competition users will be more then happy to have such merged camera with such a good price, and an improved 5DIII won't effect this new merged 1D camera. 

The more the cameras approach the finite limit I mentioned before, the less important the spec difference between the high end and low end cameras will be, and hence a lower price difference is needed.


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## Grendel (Jan 13, 2011)

*Re: More 5D Mark III / 1D Mark V & Lenses [CR2]*



JLN said:


> Grendel said:
> 
> 
> > AFAIK there's no room for a flash in the hump -- the FF pentaprism fills it pretty much up.
> ...



Tru dat -- makes the D700 pretty clunky tho. I'd prefer the smaller Canon "hump". Wouldn't mind a redesigned ST-E2 w/ a real (albeit small) flash tho.


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## UngerPhotography (Jan 14, 2011)

No built in flash please. Not when the cameras are meant for pros/semi-pros.


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## JLN (Jan 14, 2011)

i'm going to go completely left field with this one and hope for built in wireless file transmission.


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## bvukich (Jan 14, 2011)

JLN said:


> i'm going to go completely left field with this one and hope for built in wireless file transmission.



You can have that, if I get built in GPS.


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## stark-arts (Jan 14, 2011)

c.d.embrey said:


> Why do Canon owners want prosumer (hate the word) 7D focus, while Nikon owners get the same Pro focus/metering as the D3s with the D700.
> 
> Time to vote with your money. If the 5D III isn't what you want, DON"T BUY IT! And be very vocal about why you don't buy it!
> 
> I'm not advocating switching to Nikon. Just keep using your present camera, and write letters to Canon explaining why you aren't wasting your money on their new model. BTW Snail-Mail is much more effective than E-Mail.



I can't agree with this more - there are a few concepts that Nikon gets VERY RIGHT. One is that you can put a flash in a pro level camera without sacrificing build quality and two is that you can use your top AF in a camera that is not your top camera. Canon used to understand this (the EOS 3) but seem to have lost their way....


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## Admin US West (Jan 14, 2011)

Nikon has the D3S and the D3X. Two FF pro cameras one with low resolution but fast frame rate, and one with high resolution and slower frame rate. 

I would expect to see the same from Canon if the 1D is replaced with a FF version and fast frame rate. 

Right now, the 1D MK IV has the same photosite density as a 27 mp FF camera, if they made the sensor FF and did not change the photosite density, it would be 27 mp. This may be easiest to do, since the design is mostly done, it merely needs to be extended to cover a larger piece of silicone. Undoubtedly, there are other challenges, like reading the data fast enough to get high frame rates.

It is likely the ability to move data fast enough that is a key piece of technology needed to move the 10 FPS 1D series to FF and 27 mp.


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## c.d.embrey (Jan 14, 2011)

Lawliet said:


> For professional users the question isn't "Is the camera what I want?" but rather "Will it increase my income". An there are a lot of sujets where the 5D performs just fine, making that a moot point. It will sell.



That's why I haven't bought a new Canon body since 2007. No new features that I WANT/NEED have been introduced by Canon. And from what CR has been posting, it doesn't look like *Canon will introduce a new camera that will make me more money.*


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## UngerPhotography (Jan 14, 2011)

Not sure why people feel the need for so many auto-focus points.


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## remy.brooks (Jan 15, 2011)

Canon... Please just make me a 5d mkiii with a full frame sensor, improved iso range with better noise reduction, megapixels from 21-24 and a continuous burst of 5/6 frames per second and a 24-70 IS !!! ii (L... of course)


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## Jan (Jan 15, 2011)

UngerPhotography said:


> Not sure why people feel the need for so many auto-focus points.


For a working tracking AF. With my 400D's 9-point-AF, real tracking is not possible.


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## GMCPhotographics (Jan 21, 2011)

scalesusa said:


> Nikon has the D3S and the D3X. Two FF pro cameras one with low resolution but fast frame rate, and one with high resolution and slower frame rate.
> 
> I would expect to see the same from Canon if the 1D is replaced with a FF version and fast frame rate.
> 
> ...


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