# Patent: Pop-Up Flash With Bounce Capabilities



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 25, 2015)

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A patent showing a pop-up flash with bounce capabilities has appeared. This is definitely a feature a lot of people would take advantage of in a pinch. I hope we see this in the next round of flash equipped DSLRs from Canon.</p>
<p>Patent Publication No. 2015-166789 (Google Translated)</p>
<ul>
<li>Published 2015.9.24</li>
<li>Filing date 2014.3.4</li>
<li>Canon patents</li>
<li>Rotatable light-emitting part</li>
</ul>
<p>Is this something you’d want on an EOS 6D Mark II?</p>
```


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## Pitbullo (Sep 25, 2015)

My wifes nex-6 has a pop up flash that can bounce. Great feature!! Excellent if we get it on Canon DSLRs!


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## veng (Sep 25, 2015)

Would love to see this


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## danski0224 (Sep 25, 2015)

I kept reading that Canon couldn't innovative. 

What gives with this? 

;D


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## midluk (Sep 26, 2015)

danski0224 said:


> I kept reading that Canon couldn't innovative.
> 
> What gives with this?


This doesn't count as innovation unless Sony does it.


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## andrewflo (Sep 26, 2015)

The bounceable flash on the EOS M3 is such a handy feature. It would be welcomed on any camera. Of course it's not as good as a Speedlite, but for something compact, it's a nice feature to have.


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## TeT (Sep 26, 2015)

kraats said:


> I would tear it off.



is that from contempt or clumsiness...?


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## TeT (Sep 26, 2015)

Would welcome this on the 6D II; or any DSLR for that matter...


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## Maximilian (Sep 26, 2015)

Interesting! 

Would like to see how well this performsmechanically.


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## Bennymiata (Sep 26, 2015)

I'd like it on my 5D3 too, but as pop-up flashes are so weak, would it be powerfull enough to be of much use, especially if the ceiling was on the high side?


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## Sporgon (Sep 26, 2015)

kraats said:


> I would tear it off.



+ 1


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## Pitbullo (Sep 26, 2015)

Bennymiata said:


> I'd like it on my 5D3 too, but as pop-up flashes are so weak, would it be powerfull enough to be of much use, especially if the ceiling was on the high side?


Like I said on my previous post, my wifes nex-6 has a bouncable pop up flash. It is tiny, but powerfull. I have used it with great success against celings about 3m high. I havent tried higher. It really really makes a difference! Would be great if Canon implemented this feature.


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## Pitbullo (Sep 26, 2015)

kraats said:


> I would tear it off.


Why break an expensive camera?


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## Sporgon (Sep 26, 2015)

Bennymiata said:


> I'd like it on my 5D3 too, but as pop-up flashes are so weak, would it be powerfull enough to be of much use, especially if the ceiling was on the high side?



Exactly. Putting a bouncable pop up on a FF camera is even more absurd than a fixed one; you can't play the trigger card and the limitation is so horrendous what on earth are you using a FF camera for anyway if you want this feature ? On a camera such as the 100D personally I would want one for the type of casual photography that I would do with that camera, but on a FF it's an undesirable joke. 

When I changed from the four series speedlites to the five I found a big difference in bounce performance, and I think that the four series is considerably more powerful than a pop up.


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## Pitbullo (Sep 26, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> Bennymiata said:
> 
> 
> > I'd like it on my 5D3 too, but as pop-up flashes are so weak, would it be powerfull enough to be of much use, especially if the ceiling was on the high side?
> ...



FF cameras are not magical. They are used for the exact same things as aps-c. So why is a pop up flash such a nightmare on a FF camera? It can do just as good on a FF as on a crop camera.


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## Bengt Nyman (Sep 26, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> but on a FF it's an undesirable joke.


When I bought my first Nikon D800 I thought "pop-up flash, no thanks." But I have learned better.
A pop-up flash is very useful in many situations and that has nothing to do with the size of the sensor. 
Being able to avoid lighting near subjects when using pop-up flash would make it even more useful. I agree that in some situations a pop-up flash is clearly insufficient, but in others it offers convenience and excellent control.


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## Sporgon (Sep 26, 2015)

Bengt Nyman said:


> Sporgon said:
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> 
> > but on a FF it's an undesirable joke.
> ...



In that case Nikon clearly make the camera for you.


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## Busted Knuckles (Sep 26, 2015)

So lets see, A pop up flash that bounces would add oooohhh let guess $35 to the manufacturing cost of the camera? Price the cameras in the class that typically have pop ups and their stable mates that don't.

So for perhaps $50/70 retail I would get a camera that has increased functionality for casual shooting. So small birthday parties for my grandkids, etc. and yet when I need the giant strobes, it doesn't get in the way and it tucks neatly away. 

As power, no I don't need cavern filling power, as a previous poster mentioned this is for casual shooting.... a FF camera is not so much for a person who exclusively casually shoots. there is a difference. And of course this model can be upped a bit compared to the 3 meter models on most "casual shooting" cameras.

Combine it with the idea that it can be used as an optical trigger (not all of us have replaced our 2 dozen speedlights w/ radio controlled models) and in anything but a location shoot greater than about 75 meters, it works fine (actually did this w/ mT3i so pucker up buttercup).

It sounds like a damn fine bit of functionality to me.


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## trstromme (Sep 26, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> Bennymiata said:
> 
> 
> > I'd like it on my 5D3 too, but as pop-up flashes are so weak, would it be powerfull enough to be of much use, especially if the ceiling was on the high side?
> ...



erm.. I have an issue seeing why a bounce-able flash on any camera would ruin the ability to trigger a secondary flash using the optical protocol they employ. When the master (in this case the built in flash) fires it does not do it once, there is a pre-flash which goes into metering, as well as a series of very rapid flashes that encode the metering information for the secondary flash's optical sensor to read and act upon. 
All in all, any built in flash enhances the utility of the camera, don't use it if you don't want to. It might affect the durability if not done right, but with my 7D I have no such complaints. A built in flash has helped me countless times with adding the necessary fill light to balance exposures in strongly backlit environments such as on the beach or similar. Great for when you're in a pinch.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 26, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Pitbullo said:
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> > Sporgon said:
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Not true. Why would I want a 'feature' I would never use, would weigh more and make the camera bigger?

The excuse given for the video features on stills cameras is that it doesn't add size or weight and the software is written anyway, then economy of scale means it is cheaper to have it and appeal to a bigger market even if you don't want it, but that is not true of hardware, there is a cost in actual dollars, there is a cost in size and weight and reliability; that is why I don't want a feature I will never use, not because I am a snob.


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## Spokagrapher (Sep 26, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> Putting a bouncable pop up on a FF camera is even more absurd than a fixed one; you can't play the trigger card and the limitation is so horrendous what on earth are you using a FF camera for anyway if you want this feature


Far from absurd, a pop-up flash on a full-frame camera is just as useful as it would be on a crop-sensor camera. A bounce feature will increase that usefulness.

After I bought my first EOS 6D, I went out to the back yard with my new 6D to photograph my two dogs, who happen to be all black. Right away I realized that I missed the pop-up flash of the 60D, which I'd previously used to good effect to photograph my dogs. The pop-up flash gave just the right amount of fill light to show good detail in my dogs' black fur and sparkle in their eyes without being awkward or intrusive, as a camera strobe would have been. For grab-and-go shooting, a pop-up flash is a very handy feature regardless of sensor size.

To be clear, a pop-up flash is not my choice for supplemental lighting for portrait work. So the lack of a pop-up flash on my 6Ds doesn't bother me in that respect, but I wouldn't complain if the 6D had a pop-up flash, unless the flash meant not having wi-fi. As a lighting tool, however, the pop-up flash has a place on any DSLR, especially if it's designed so it can trigger other flashes without imparting its own effect on the subject. 

As long as a person understands the limitations of a pop-up flash and works within those limitations, there's little reason criticize these flashes.


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## Sporgon (Sep 26, 2015)

trstromme said:


> Sporgon said:
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> > Bennymiata said:
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I was referring to the addition of bounce from a pop up doesn't help triggering ( or at least not reliably) so this added feature can't be used for the cheap optical trigger argument. Not that it can't be used as a trigger anymore. 

At the end of the day it is personal preference. I do not want it on a high end camera - simple. From my point of view it compromises the structural integrity of the camera for something that I will never use, at least not when using a camera like that. I've has the pop up snap off a Nikon D200 years ago, and damned nearly had the same thing happen recently when I had an APS dslr over my shoulder along with my light weight tripod in its bag, and the flash had deployed. God knows how I didn't get that snapped off. 

You can argue for or against. Personally I'm pleased Canon don't fit them to the Ff cameras.


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## Crosswind (Sep 26, 2015)

Probably the next big killer feature for the 1DX2 8)


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## TeT (Sep 26, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> Bennymiata said:
> 
> 
> > I'd like it on my 5D3 too, but as pop-up flashes are so weak, would it be powerfull enough to be of much use, especially if the ceiling was on the high side?
> ...



Its for that quick moment when you need just a splash of light... or for when you are being lazy ... 

The bounce aspect makes it much more usable rather than the default PoP up Alien eyes affect.

Obviously if you are needing REAL LIGHT you will attach your speed light and go...


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## privatebydesign (Sep 26, 2015)

TeT said:


> Sporgon said:
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> > Bennymiata said:
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I never, ever, need _"that quick moment"_ when using my 1 series cameras. I appreciate it in the G10 (not really) and I don't miss it in my EOS-M, but when I do want it I have the 90EX which also doesn't bounce and I don't care.

Also, given the guide number of these internal flashes I would think the amount of light you get after bouncing makes them very limited.


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## twagn (Sep 27, 2015)

TTL cord of any length and you can bounce flash anywhere you like. Can't see a pop up bounce flash
on a pro level DSLR. Maybe for marketing fluff. Canon throws of bunch of useless things on cameras that nobody uses


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## Khufu (Sep 27, 2015)

Considering the ISO capabilities of even the cheapest of modern dSLR cameras and the subtle yet desirable benefits of a low powered, compact bounce flash... eugh. Some of you guys have your heads so far up your... selves that it seems to have deprived your potentially creative minds of any oxygen. It's truly fascinating what people will object to on the internets.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 27, 2015)

Khufu said:


> Considering the ISO capabilities of even the cheapest of modern dSLR cameras and the subtle yet desirable benefits of a low powered, compact bounce flash... eugh. Some of you guys have your heads so far up your... selves that it seems to have deprived your potentially creative minds of any oxygen. It's truly fascinating what people will object to on the internets.



Don't be so condescending. I understand that people use their cameras for all kinds of different uses, I use mine to make salable images, none of which would be so if shot with a built in flash, that is my reality, no head up my ass. 

You might well find it handy to have a pop up flash on your DSLR, all power to you, so far Canon have decided that if that is so then the camera for you is a crop camera, they don't consider a built in flash and a ff feature set and price to be a match.


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## captainkanji (Sep 27, 2015)

The only use I'd have for a pop up flash is to fire an off camera flash. Since the 6D didn't have one, I got a Phottix and am glad I did. I can see this on a Rebel, but I personally would superglue an on camera flash shut.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 27, 2015)

dilbert said:


> privatebydesign said:
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Not if I have to pay for it and carry it! Your reply is totally illogical when there is an actual cost in both financial and size and weight terms to the option, as there is with hardware.

That is like Canon increasing the price of the 5D MkIII $250 and gluing a BG-E11 onto it, great for those that want it, utterly crap for those that don't; and totally impossible to _"simply not care if it is there"_.


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## sanj (Sep 27, 2015)

It would be nice in case of an emergency. I think it is nice to have.


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## TeT (Sep 27, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> Khufu said:
> 
> 
> > Considering the ISO capabilities of even the cheapest of modern dSLR cameras and the subtle yet desirable benefits of a low powered, compact bounce flash... eugh. Some of you guys have your heads so far up your... selves that it seems to have deprived your potentially creative minds of any oxygen. It's truly fascinating what people will object to on the internets.
> ...



I would find it useful. I shoot for enjoyment, my pics usually are questionable in quality but improving all the time. That is my reality...

I find it hard to believe that you as a professional, could not create a salable image with a pop up flash. Really...


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## Pitbullo (Sep 27, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> dilbert said:
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With all respect, in this topic, your signature is quite funny 
Quoted here:
_Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, MP's or AF, it is about the light._


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## Sporgon (Sep 27, 2015)

Pitbullo said:


> privatebydesign said:
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> > dilbert said:
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Private's signature is highly relevant to this topic. It is all about the light, how we handle and manipulate it, the quality of it. Hence why pop up on a (relatively) expensive camera aimed at producing top quality is, literally, miss placed.


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## Spokagrapher (Sep 27, 2015)

TeT said:


> I find it hard to believe that you as a professional, could not create a salable image with a pop up flash. Really...


That would depend on the kind of photography Privatebydesign does.

Here’s an example of a professional photographer using pop-up flash to make images that could sell, or at least be published: http://thedigitaltrekker.com/2014/03/the-popup-flash-a-pro-tool/

A photog could do these kinds of photos with an on-camera strobe as well, but a strobe is an awkward piece of kit to keep attached to a camera no matter how you use it. The pop-up flash allows a photog to have flash available without being bulky and awkward, an especially good thing for pros who do walk-around photography.

The pop-up’s limitations pretty much confine it to support uses, where it’s not the main source of light for a photo. As a source of fill light, or as a means to trigger other flashes, it definitely has a place on DSLRs, including professional-level DSLRs. But since many pros need flash power and functionality far greater than a pop-up can deliver, many will default to strobes and off-camera flashes and forego the pop-up when flash illumination is called for. For them the pop-up is superfluous, and I can understand their aversion to the pop-ups on the cameras with which they earn their livings. But I think that aversion is unnecessary.

Consider the pro-level EOS 7D MkII. It has a pop-up flash, yet it’s a robust, feature-rich fully professional DSLR differentiated from all other pro DSLRs mainly by having a crop sensor. Were it a full-frame camera, some people would say that it ought not have a pop-up flash … simply because it’s a full-frame professional camera. That seems arbitrary to me, in the same way I find arbitrary the arguments against the EOS 6D being a professional-quality camera because it lacks features that other pro DSLRs have. 



privatebydesign said:


> I use mine to make salable images, none of which would be so if shot with a built in flash, that is my reality, no head up my ass.


What kind of photography do you do?


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## sanj (Sep 27, 2015)

Every photo we take is not for sale. And if this flash does become a reality there is no one stopping use of professional lights when required. Why is there so much of an argument about a feature which some may use when they want and some will never. It is there for who want it. It is not being forced. Duh. 

Btw: Pop up flash can be a life saver to photographers who know how to use it and it being bounce able will be an added benefit.


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## sanj (Sep 27, 2015)

Busted Knuckles said:


> So lets see, A pop up flash that bounces would add oooohhh let guess $35 to the manufacturing cost of the camera? Price the cameras in the class that typically have pop ups and their stable mates that don't.
> 
> So for perhaps $50/70 retail I would get a camera that has increased functionality for casual shooting. So small birthday parties for my grandkids, etc. and yet when I need the giant strobes, it doesn't get in the way and it tucks neatly away.
> 
> ...



Brilliant.


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## sanj (Sep 27, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> dilbert said:
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> > Pitbullo said:
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Others may want to! They have no bounce able flash build in available currently. They will use it. You can keep it unused. Simple. Yes Private?


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## sanj (Sep 27, 2015)

Spokagrapher said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > Putting a bouncable pop up on a FF camera is even more absurd than a fixed one; you can't play the trigger card and the limitation is so horrendous what on earth are you using a FF camera for anyway if you want this feature
> ...



Absolutely!


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## sanj (Sep 27, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> TeT said:
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> > Sporgon said:
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Sure the light is limited and it is for limited photography and very helpful for that.


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## Crosswind (Sep 28, 2015)

Yeah. Much better and softer lighting than the conventional pop up flashes, but also much less light output. I think in combination with moderate ISO settings this will be very helpful in some occasions, without the need of a bulky flashlight mounted on the hotshoe. Probably a new feature for 6D2?


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## Stuart (Sep 28, 2015)

Yes I'd love a popup bounce flash.


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## Bengt Nyman (Sep 28, 2015)

Bennymiata said:


> I'd like it on my 5D3 too, but as pop-up flashes are so weak, would it be powerful enough to be of much use,


1. Between small clubs and churches my Nikon D800E, and D810 pop-up flash covers 90% of my need for flash.
2. If my pop-up flash had bounce (to avoid lighting undesirable subjects in the light path) it would probably take care of 95% of my need for flash.
3. In churches and other tall venues i still bring a speed flash, but I rarely use it.


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## Rob Carter (Sep 28, 2015)

With the camera in landscape orientation the flash will bounce straight up and down. The result could be a not pleasing effect i.e. dark eye sockets. In portrait orientation this should not occur as the head is described as rotatable so it could be swivelled to 45 degrees for a more pleasant effect.

If the flash was powerful enough to bounce up and behind from a suitably close substrate then I can see an application for it when the camera is in portrait orientation.


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## blanddragon (Sep 28, 2015)

Snark Warning... Oh yes please a bounce flash and let's have a swivel display too. That way it can be something else to break or snap off. End of snark... For me, the flash on the 7D has been the least used feature ever. I just don't care for the on axis flash look in my portraits. I've also had issues with 'crap' getting under the mechanics on the 7D. I would rather see a split ring focus screen on my 7D Mk III/5D Mk III/IV. YMMV.


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