# EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 16, 2013)

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<p><strong>Not much buzz

</strong>There isn’t much information out there about Canon’s next APS-C cameras. Canon has alluded to the fact that both cameras are coming, we just don’t know when. We’ve been told previously by very good sources that only the EOS 70D will be available in 2013, though the EOS 7D Mark II could be announced in late 2013 for early 2014 availability.</p>
<p>We’re told a “surprise” announcement will be made by Canon in July, what that is we’re unsure. However, the source alluded to it being a camera body. I wouldn’t call the EOS 70D a “surprise”, but we’ll see. Could it be…….. something else?</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## Tanja (May 16, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

a suprise would be a 40+ MP 1D body announcement .....


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## Lee Jay (May 16, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

I wonder if we paid them some more money if they could move a little slower for us.


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## CanNotYet (May 16, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

Canon announces FF P&S?


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## Stuart (May 16, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

" the source alluded to it being a camera body" just some neat tech feature in the new EOS M perhaps.


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## Don Haines (May 16, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



Canon Rumors said:


> We’re told a “surprise” announcement will be made by Canon in July, what that is we’re unsure. However, the source alluded to it being a camera body. I wouldn’t call the EOS 70D a “surprise”, but we’ll see. Could it be…….. something else?



Think outside the box..... the iCanon! A Canon that you can also use like an iPhone.....


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## CHR20000 (May 16, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

I can't hear is anymore.. Its done when its done.. Invested my money in a new lens.. so the T2i should do it for the rest of the year ???


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## roimund (May 16, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

Canon would surprise a whole lot of people if they announced a non-18Mp aps-c sized sensor..


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## bereninga (May 16, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



roimund said:


> Canon would surprise a whole lot of people if they announced a non-18Mp aps-c sized sensor..



It's so very sad how true this is.


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## jebrady03 (May 16, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



bereninga said:


> roimund said:
> 
> 
> > Canon would surprise a whole lot of people if they announced a non-18Mp aps-c sized sensor..
> ...



You forgot "and hilarious" ;D


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## 9VIII (May 16, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



Don Haines said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We’re told a “surprise” announcement will be made by Canon in July, what that is we’re unsure. However, the source alluded to it being a camera body. I wouldn’t call the EOS 70D a “surprise”, but we’ll see. Could it be…….. something else?
> ...



I actually want phone integration to be an option in Canon cameras, that way I would have an excuse to bring it everywhere.

"But it's my _phone_" I'd say to the restaurant manager while pointing at the ten pound lump.
Calls would basically have to be done in speakerphone or with a headset, but that's ok since that makes it a hands free device when driving.


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## c.d.embrey (May 16, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

I'm thinking that the 70D and 7D2 will be *too-little-too-late.*


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## neuroanatomist (May 16, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



ankorwatt said:


> I agree, Canon sensors are to late



Gee, I guess it's a good thing that Canon sells _cameras_, not just sensors....and they continue to sell more of them than their competition.


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## neuroanatomist (May 16, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



ankorwatt said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > ankorwatt said:
> ...



Ahh, yes...the rest is so easy to catch up, and lenses, flashes, etc., too. That must be why Nikon, Sony, et al., are selling so many more dSLRs than Canon. Oh, wait...they're not. The thing is, if it was 'so easy' than Canon would have been losing market share ever since their sensors 'fell behind'. But they've been gaining. 

Also, it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that the opposite of better is bad. The opposite of better is worse, and in the case of Canon's 'not better' sensors, worse is still pretty damn good. 



ankorwatt said:


> Canon have lived on a long time on their name and early cmos sensor tech since 2004, sorry but this tech is old 2013 which can been seen if you compare to Nikon, Pentax, Sony = DXO scores etc why are no Canon in the DXO list over best sensors at all ?
> Do you have any nuanced view at all or whats going on ?



Who needs a nuanced view? Every year for which there are sales data and during which Nikon sensors beat Canon sensors on DxOMark, Canon sold more dSLRs. Nuances aren't helping your case.


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## brad-man (May 16, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



dilbert said:


> > We’re told a “surprise” announcement will be made by Canon in July, what that is we’re unsure. However, the source alluded to it being a camera body. I wouldn’t call the EOS 70D a “surprise”, but we’ll see. Could it be…….. something else?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It could only be the _Canon PowerShot N mkll_...


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## neuroanatomist (May 16, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



ankorwatt said:


> sold and sold, nokia sold their telephones, and now we know whats happens, you and Jrista are so indoctrinated so you can not keep apart what is discussed, why are no Canon sensor at the top 10 in DXO ranking and start at 17e place?



Oh, we can tell the difference. But, *DxO Scores have no relevance to camera sales.*

Yes, we know about Nokia. So come back after Canon drops to the bottom of the market share rankings. In the meantime, there's nothing to show that's what is going to happen, nothing to show that Nikon/Sony/et al., are beating Canon where it counts (selling cameras), and thus nothing to show that all this babble about sensors and DR has any meaningful impact on the bottom line - camera sales. 

Fortunately for Canon, their customer base is just a little bit bigger than you and the rest of the minuscule group of DR-obsessed forum jockeys.


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## cycomachead (May 16, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

This makes me feel better… I just bought a 5D3 because I couldn't wait. And i don't really want to buy another new camera.  Though, I can't wait to see a new 7D!


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## Don Haines (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

The biggest surprise I've seen from Canon (or anyone else for that matter) in the last several years was the SX50. Everything else from everyone else seems to have been incremental improvements. The surprise is that they could make a 50X superzoom that works reasonably well... I thought that 30X was pushing it... had tried out several, and hated them. The SX50 works quite well in good light and in the right conditions outperforms lens/body combos that cost 20 times as much.

A bit better AF performance, a bit better ISO, a bit better noise, wifi, gps, a few more megapixels.... none of that will be a surprise. We all know that it will eventually happen. A surprise is something unexpected.

Perhaps a "surprise announcement" will come in the form of a mirrorless camera that takes EF lenses....


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## neuroanatomist (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



ankorwatt said:


> Neuro, you have a habit to answer with sails



Sales drive revenue. Revenue drives profit. Profit is a major driver of share price and shareholder value. Share price and shareholder value determine whether a public company thrives, survives, or fails. 

Betamax was better quality than VHS. VHS sold better. Betamax failed and was abandoned.


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## Don Haines (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



ankorwatt said:


> Neuro, you have a habit to answer with sails,



Not to be picky here.... but I doubt that Canoe will ever be number one in "sails"..... they make consumer electronics, not boats.....


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## brad-man (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



Don Haines said:


> The biggest surprise I've seen from Canon (or anyone else for that matter) in the last several years was the SX50. Everything else from everyone else seems to have been incremental improvements. The surprise is that they could make a 50X superzoom that works reasonably well... I thought that 30X was pushing it... had tried out several, and hated them. The SX50 works quite well in good light and in the right conditions outperforms lens/body combos that cost 20 times as much.
> 
> A bit better AF performance, a bit better ISO, a bit better noise, wifi, gps, a few more megapixels.... none of that will be a surprise. We all know that it will eventually happen. A surprise is something unexpected.
> 
> Perhaps a "surprise announcement" will come in the form of a mirrorless camera that takes EF lenses....



I think the Sony DSC-RX100 is a remarkable evolution of the point & shoot crowd. Too bad it rarely goes on sail.


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## Don Haines (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



neuroanatomist said:


> Sales drive revenue. Revenue drives profit. Profit is a major driver of share price and shareholder value. Share price and shareholder value determine whether a public company thrives, survives, or fails.
> 
> Betamax was better quality than VHS. VHS sold better. Betamax failed and was abandoned.



On a more DSLR related note, Olympus came out with 4/3 format. It was going to be a worldwide standard. Many things about thier cameras were ahead of what the Canon and Nikon crop bodies offered at the time. They had beter user interface, beter weatherproofing, arguably better sensor performance, and faster autofocusing..... and where is it now? ( 4/3... not micro 4/3 ). Sales sucked, product not stocked by retail stores, death spiral, gone.


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## neuroanatomist (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



Don Haines said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Sales drive revenue. Revenue drives profit. Profit is a major driver of share price and shareholder value. Share price and shareholder value determine whether a public company thrives, survives, or fails.
> ...



Well, the Olympus E5 got a DxOMark Overall Score of only 56. That must be why it didn't sell. :


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## bdunbar79 (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



Don Haines said:


> ankorwatt said:
> 
> 
> > Neuro, you have a habit to answer with sails,
> ...



You even threw in the word "Canoe" for the icing on the cake! Well done.


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## Don Haines (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



neuroanatomist said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Personally, I've never paid a lot of attention to Dx0Mark scores. A lot of people fixate on sensors, but it seems far more important to deal with more important stuff first. I tend to shoot in good lighting conditions so I don't have a fanatical worry about ISO scores.

To me, the most important aspect of a camera system is the AF system. An in focus picture beats an out of focus picture. I don't care how much dynamic range or megapixels are involved.... Focus is of paramount importance.

My second criteria to look at is the glass. It does not matter if you are shooting anything from a rebel to a 1Dx, the resolution of the glass has to exceed the resolution of the body if you are going to push things to the limit. With the higher pixel density, this is far more important on crop bodies than FF bodies, but when a high megapixel FF body comes out, make sure you have top notch glass of you will get soft pictures. Stick a 100L Macro on a Rebel and it will take pictures so sharp it will amaze you.... put a $200 kit zoom on a rebel and you get mush.

My third criteria is good user interface.... gotta be able to control things on the fly and in a panic.... stepping through menus does not cut it.

New sensor? Yes it's important to me, but it is far from being everything to me. I use camera systems, not components in isolation. It is very important to me that whatever system I am using comes from a stable and profitable company. If they are loosing money, they run the risk of going away, and that leaves me with a shelf of orphan glass.


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## Don Haines (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



bdunbar79 said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > ankorwatt said:
> ...


Oops... I just realized I forgot to post the picture to go with that...

(she is gorgeous and only 103 years old)

and for the sensor is everything crowd..... picture shot with an Olympus OM-1 using Kodachrome 64


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## neuroanatomist (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



Don Haines said:


> (she is gorgeous and only 103 years old)



She doesn't look anywhere near that old. Maybe it's the hat and glasses?


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## ddashti (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

Really hoping the "surprise" will be the 7D Mark II or something even better!


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## scottkinfw (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

I don't know how or if this fits into this argument, but I think that the essential element in Betamax v. VHS was that VHS out marketed Betamax, and won the war despite being the inferior technology. Not sure if this applies in this debate.




neuroanatomist said:


> ankorwatt said:
> 
> 
> > Neuro, you have a habit to answer with sails
> ...


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## wickidwombat (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

wow another thread hijacked with inane drivel and crap pictures comparing some nikons and canons :

while i'm no fan of the 18mp aps-c sensor i'm even less of a fan of this perpetual dead horse beating
can you please give it a rest ankorwatt it's very old and been done to death many times your point is clear
and does not need to be re-iterated again and again and again


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## aznable (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



ankorwatt said:


> Canon have lived on a long time on their name and early cmos sensor tech since 2004, sorry but this tech is old 2013 which can been seen if you compare to Nikon, Pentax, Sony = DXO scores etc why are not Canon in the DXO list over best sensors at all ?
> Do you have any nuanced view at all whats going on ?This is the real difference between 18 and 24Mp APS as one example



and a 15mpix sensor that destroys your beloved nikon/sony/put a brand name,they are all based on same technology...go out and buy an sd1 if the sensor is your only concern







the nikon d7100....a joke of a camera with a ridicolous buffer; even my 50D has a buffer enough big to store more than double the images the d7100 is capable of...lol


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## M.ST (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

A “surprise” announcement will be a Canon APS-C camera with the new outstanding image improvement technology announced a few month before, a non 18 megapixel sensor, a non 9 AF point system, a hitrate in AI servo mode like the GH3 (7D around 40 %, GH3 around 86 % hitrate) hitrate and a video quality like the GH3.

Two differenz 7D Mark II´s are out for testing. But I don´t think Canon put the camera on the market until some problems are fixed. It´s a shame that Canon fixed a lot of errors of the 5D Mark III (reported before the announcement) after more than one year.

Don´t wait for new stuff. You can´t shoot pictures with future products.


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## vscd (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

@M.ST Nice collection in your footnote. You already have the Nikon D4X?  How do you choose which cam to take out? I'm still confused with my 4 or 5 Cams... I'll sell most of them soon, I'm sick of the headache of choosing everytime I want to shoot some photos


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## neuroanatomist (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



dilbert said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



4/3 dSLR, not m4/3 MILC, is what was stated. The most recent 4/3 camera is the Olympus E-5, a 'pro' body almost 3 years old that no one expects will be replaced. It's #3,139 in Amazon's sales ranking. The 'consumer' line of 4/3 cameras (E-xxx) stopped with the E-600 in 2009. Panasonic and Leica tried the format, dropped it over 6 years ago. 

So, who's not paying attention? You, dilbert. But at least you've figured out we're talking about cameras, not lenses, this time. Bravo.


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## insanitybeard (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



c.d.embrey said:


> I'm thinking that the 70D and 7D2 will be *too-little-too-late.*



Because historically Nikon never trailed Canon did they? They never had to catch up with anybody else?

I'm so tired of all this 'Canon are entering the graveyard spiral' stuff. What you actually mean is 'it will be too little too late - *FOR YOU*'. Not everybody. Canon may fail, or they may not. But neither you or I can make those kind of statements with any certainty.


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## Hobby Shooter (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...


Sometimes you're my hero man!


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## ZoeEnPhos (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



Don Haines said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...




+1

A short-note!
As always, the greatest image quality will quickly be negated by focusing errors. AF accuracy is extremely important for the the combination of DSLR and the lens in use - especially AI Servo AF accuracy. 
And not to forget especially with a shallow DOF (Depth of Field), even small focusing errors will ruin the shot.
Also - if you need to use a Extender with your lens - Canon has stated this: " "These new extenders (version III) have been designed to provide faster autofocusing and improved autofocus precision with compatible EF lenses" and "Each extender also features a newly developed microcomputer that increases AF precision when the extenders are used with a IS Series II EF super-telephoto lens." [Canon USA]
So then - we should bear in mind that the Canon USA press release does not specifically say that the series III extenders would deliver better image quality (though features were added that could) - but that they would deliver better AF performance.
- Although the AF improvement will not result in better than the optical capability of the lens-plus-extender combination, better AF performance does indeed deliver better image quality overall and that is crucial!
Happy shootings to you all!
C


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## Don Haines (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...


We are talking 4/3, a DSLR crop body, and the market is most certainly not dead. Olympus failed to capture sales despite technical excellence..... So they let the line die. This is why many of us say that sales matter. Who cares how good the camera is if it isn't made. Just like Betamax, no sales became no more new 4/3 cameras. One might argue that sales are the most important aspect of a camera.


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## Bob Howland (May 17, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



dilbert said:


> > We’re told a “surprise” announcement will be made by Canon in July, what that is we’re unsure. However, the source alluded to it being a camera body. I wouldn’t call the EOS 70D a “surprise”, but we’ll see. Could it be…….. something else?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like your fifth idea! How about both the 7D and 70D both being mirrorless cameras with shortened flange distances and Canon introducing a 1-1/3 stop Speed Booster-like adapter? The FF cameras could keep the standard flange distance and mirrors for photographic Neanderthals. The M-mount might have been introduced, half-heartedly, solely to allow a reduction in camera size.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (May 18, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



dilbert said:


> > We’re told a “surprise” announcement will be made by Canon in July, what that is we’re unsure. However, the source alluded to it being a camera body. I wouldn’t call the EOS 70D a “surprise”, but we’ll see. Could it be…….. something else?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Canon introduces the 5D3FUML which is exactly the same as the 5D3 only it ships with firmware locking out firmware hacking ;D. That just might well start a revolution.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (May 18, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



Bob Howland said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > > We’re told a “surprise” announcement will be made by Canon in July, what that is we’re unsure. However, the source alluded to it being a camera body. I wouldn’t call the EOS 70D a “surprise”, but we’ll see. Could it be…….. something else?
> ...



Canon had a chart with a very high tier mirror less camera slot left open maybe it is some sort of mirrorless 1 series sort of beast.


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## c.d.embrey (May 18, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



insanitybeard said:


> c.d.embrey said:
> 
> 
> > I'm thinking that the 70D and 7D2 will be *too-little-too-late.*
> ...



Both Canon and Nikon seem to be in *No Hurry* to introduce Pro Level APS-C/DX cameras. There are *rumors* that the 7D2 will be available in *2014*, but the are no rumors about the Nikon D400 ever being announced, zilch, nada, nothing. Until Canon pre-announces the 7D2 it's just vaporware.

So that leaves APS-C/DX shooters looking at something that isn't Canon or Nikon.


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## Don Haines (May 18, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



c.d.embrey said:


> Both Canon and Nikon seem to be in *No Hurry* to introduce Pro Level APS-C/DX cameras. There are *rumors* that the 7D2 will be available in *2014*, but the are no rumors about the Nikon D400 ever being announced, zilch, nada, nothing. Until Canon pre-announces the 7D2 it's just vaporware.
> 
> So that leaves APS-C/DX shooters looking at something that isn't Canon or Nikon.



With the p/s you can expect several models in various colors to be announced each year, but as you move up the spectrum the updates get less and less frequent. Once you get into DSLR's, the vast bulk of Canon Sales are rebels and as you move upwards in price the numbers sold drop off. Let's say it takes 100,000 rebels sold to make a camera profitable.... they might hit that in a month. They make more profit per body on a 7D, let's say it only takes 50,000 sold to make a profit..... it could take half a year.. It probably takes a couple years on a 1Dx...

The point is, it takes a lot more time to show a profit on higher end bodies, and without significant improvements over the previous model, sales will be slow. Canon is in business to make money and without a significant improvement there is no sense in them releasing newer versions. High end releases show a lot more improvement over the previous model than a mode dial that goes all the way around....


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## dgatwood (May 18, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



Bob Howland said:


> I like your fifth idea! How about both the 7D and 70D both being mirrorless cameras with shortened flange distances and Canon introducing a 1-1/3 stop Speed Booster-like adapter? The FF cameras could keep the standard flange distance and mirrors for photographic Neanderthals. The M-mount might have been introduced, half-heartedly, solely to allow a reduction in camera size.



Please, no. With my "Neanderthal" EF-S camera, I can shoot pictures in a theater and not annoy everyone with my bright screen. I can look away from my optical viewfinder and enjoy the show without a burned-in square where the screen killed my dark adaptation.

I mean, I could maybe see it as a second body (sharing EF and EF-S lenses with my main camera), just for size reasons, but then I'd have to carry around two cameras just in case I wanted something lighter around my neck, which sort of defeats the purpose of buying something lighter to begin with.

Besides, if I cared about camera size, I'd be shooting with a point-and-shoot (or, for that matter, my iPhone). Whether you go EF-S or EF-M, the vast majority of the weight is the glass, and comparable lenses require very nearly the same amount of glass whether they're designed for EF-S or EF-M—the EF-M 18-55 lens is actually slightly *heavier* than the equivalent EF-S lens—so I just don't see any real benefit of EF-M, much less a benefit so significant that it would make up for the loss of an OVF.

Just MHO.


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## c.d.embrey (May 18, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



Don Haines said:


> c.d.embrey said:
> 
> 
> > Both Canon and Nikon seem to be in *No Hurry* to introduce Pro Level APS-C/DX cameras. There are *rumors* that the 7D2 will be available in *2014*, but the are no rumors about the Nikon D400 ever being announced, zilch, nada, nothing. Until Canon pre-announces the 7D2 it's just vaporware.
> ...



The *Canon 7D, launched in 2009*, is the first of the line so there is no historical data available.

This is not true with Nikon. The D200 came out in 2005, the D300 in 2007 and the D300s in 2009. *Now it's 2013 and NO D400 is even rumored*.

So it seems safe to say that both Canon and Nikon are'nt in any hurry to release either the 7D2 or D400. Maybe they think the upgrade path should lead to FullFrame  For me, the upgrade path may lead to Fuji E-X1 or Panasonic GH3. YMMV.


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## jrista (May 19, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



ankorwatt said:


> I agree, Canon sensors are to late



WOW! What a surprise!! No one would have EVER guessed! :


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## jrista (May 19, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



ankorwatt said:


> Neuro, you have a habit to answer with sails, if you told me that 50mm from Canon has the first place in a MTF measurements and Nikon is number 17 regarding 50mm measurements and shows inferior measurements and I answer you, well Nikon sells a lot of them, it doesn't make them better. or what do you think?
> No- I think Canon needs to step up regarding sensors and not think it is 2004 any longer . It is little bit as the canadians in is hockey, they are not number one in the world , even if millions of Canadiens thinks they are
> viva la suecia who banged the Canadian
> observe the last with a wink



Well, Neuro has a habit of answering with "sales." Sales are what REALLY differentiate one "product" from another, one "brand" from another. Canon is now, and has been for some time, the worldwide leader in photography equipment. They reign supreme when it comes to DSLRs, hands down.

Sails, on the other hand...are what drive sail boats across the sea. Not sure sails have much relevance when it comes to photography...other than potentially being an interesting subject for photographers who love to photograph sailboats...yachts...and other sail-driven watercraft.


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## jrista (May 19, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



ankorwatt said:


> Canon have lived on a long time on their name and early cmos sensor tech since 2004, sorry but this tech is old 2013 which can been seen if you compare to Nikon, Pentax, Sony = DXO scores etc why are not Canon in the DXO list over best sensors at all ?
> Do you have any nuanced view at all whats going on ?This is the real difference between 18 and 24Mp APS as one example



I debunked this already once before. Of the four cameras shown, all EXCEPT the 7D display moire, some quite pronounced. Of all the things to clean up in post...moire is THE WORST. It is a royal pain in the rear end as it has to be cleaned up manually with a localized tool...and "cleaning up" moire in post really just means "destroying detail".

On the flip side, the predictable, uniform blurring to fine detail caused by an OLPF is quite easy to clean up...as easy to clean up as diffraction softening. All one needs is a basic sharpening tool, as in this example below from your previous use of these comparisons...sharpened in PS6 with a basic unsharp mask:


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## jrista (May 19, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



scottkinfw said:


> I don't know how or if this fits into this argument, but I think that the essential element in Betamax v. VHS was that VHS out marketed Betamax, and won the war despite being the inferior technology. Not sure if this applies in this debate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sort of. I would say that Betamax was significantly better than VHS. In comparison, Canon sensors fail in ONE *NICHE* area in comparison to SOME competitors sensors, and in all other respects are highly competitive and in many respects better (i.e. high ISO noise and high ISO SNR). The SOLE area where Canon "sensors" fall behind is in the low ISO DR area. In every other respect, Canon "DSLR cameras" are superior tools, as it has been clearly demonstrated Canon's latest round of cameras, the 1D X and 5D III, outperform Canon cameras in terms of AF functionality, AF performance, metering capabilities, etc. Canon cameras are renown for their ruggedness and tank-like build (look up Digital Rev's video where they literally put the 7D through hell...tossing it down stairs, submerging it in water and freezing it, lighting it on fire...and it STILL came out swinging. And it doesn't even compare to the 1D X!)

So, while I applaud the attempt, I don't think it is really a valid comparison. Canon makes a phenomenal product, their technology, both technological and optical, is cutting edge and superior in the majority of respects to the majority of their competition. There is one, single, explicit and niche area where Canon's technology is a little behind...two stops behind, to be exact...and that is ISO 100 & 200 dynamic range. 

To be frank, Canon listened to their customers. Before the D800, the supreme demand of Canon by Canon customers was "Higher ISO, Better ISO, Bigger Pixels, Fewer Pixels!!" Well, Canon delivered, and delivered exceptionally well. That was BEFORE the D800. Well, now the D800 and it's Exmor sensor have changed Canon's customers expectations. Canon will most certainly respond, but designing a brand new sensor, especially on a brand new fabrication process, is not something that happens over night. It'll take a couple years, at least. I suspect the 7D II will be the first DSLR since the introduction of the 1D X and 5D III that will use a new fabrication process, and unveil Canon's first answer to their customers Current demands: Keep the improvements they made last round (Higher, Better, Bigger, Fewer!) and add in improved low ISO DR. I don't suspect we'll see anything else for another year, as it will still take time to deliver a high MP sensor capable of fulfilling everyone's wants and desires, on both the still and video fronts, with "the best of everything". *It just plain and simply does not happen over night!*


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## CanNotYet (May 20, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

Surprise!

Releasing a new version of 6D with built-in flash (to lure in APS-C customers) called "6Df".


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## pedro (May 20, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

Well, the surprise might be, that the price tag is even higher than ever before ... my two cents 8)


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## mucher (May 20, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

I hope it will be 4:2:2 YUV 10bit/12bit output support, or/and CinemaDNG output support for currently selling models. That RAW DNG ML firmware makes Canon looking really bad.


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## CanNotYet (May 21, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



pedro said:


> Well, the surprise might be, that the price tag is even higher than ever before ... my two cents 8)


Pedro, that wouldn't be a surprise. A surprise would be if it was lower!


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## Chosenbydestiny (May 21, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



CanNotYet said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > Well, the surprise might be, that the price tag is even higher than ever before ... my two cents 8)
> ...



Nice. And a pleasant surprise that would definitely be. 


The trolls will never be happy though.


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## vscd (May 21, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

Who really needs a buildin flash? There are a lot of small flashunits out there (f.e. 270EX II), you can stick on the 
body of you want. And those are far superior to the buildin-lightbulbs. It's like having a DVD-Drive in your laptop,
yes you need it once or twice in a lifetime, but better stick it externally and spare the weight 99% of the time.

But to come back to the 70D/7DM2 rumours...I guess the 70D will come out as an updated Version of the old 7D,
outspeccing the old cam, but with no magnesiumbody, SDCards or Prolike connectors. The 7DM2 will be out at
the end of 2013/beginning of 2014 with the new branch of sensors... which we'll get to use the next 4 or 5 years.

The WLAN/GPS enhancements of the 6D will get inside the 70D, I guess... they seem to work very well and give 
some pluspoints against the Nikoncams.


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## CTJohn (May 22, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



vscd said:


> Who really needs a buildin flash? There are a lot of small flashunits out there (f.e. 270EX II), you can stick on the
> body of you want. And those are far superior to the buildin-lightbulbs. It's like having a DVD-Drive in your laptop,
> yes you need it once or twice in a lifetime, but better stick it externally and spare the weight 99% of the time.
> 
> ...



I use the built in flash on my 7D as a master flash for a couple 430EXII slave flashes. Just bought a 6D and had to waste money buying a 90EX for the same purpose.


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## vscd (May 22, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

I knew that this answer will come and it seems to be a valid answer, but as I told... there are small external out there
which can do the same. When I used build in flashs to trigger external ones, they always needed to "look" to the 
cam
because they need a visual connection. This was mostyl no help while shooting, and furthermore the small central
flash on the cam had to be bright to trigger, but I can't get rid of them for the result (I just want to flash from the
sides).

I think just getting a real flash is the way to go. I understand why someone needs an internal, but I totally disagree
that this belongs to a "professional" cam.


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## CTJohn (May 22, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



vscd said:


> I knew that this answer will come and it seems to be a valid answer, but as I told... there are small external out there
> which can do the same. When I used build in flashs to trigger external ones, they always needed to "look" to the
> cam
> because they need a visual connection. This was mostyl no help while shooting, and furthermore the small central
> ...



It's easy to turn off the pop-up flash in the camera's menu and use only the slaves for lighting. The firing of the pop-up can be before the image is taken and is only to send instructions to the slaves. You can do this with a pop-up, or like I said, if there's no pop-up, you get to pay Canon more for something like the 90EX to do the same thing. Give me the internal flash - then it's my decision how to use it, not Canon's.


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## dgatwood (May 23, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



vscd said:


> Who really needs a buildin flash? There are a lot of small flashunits out there (f.e. 270EX II), you can stick on the
> body of you want. And those are far superior to the buildin-lightbulbs.



You know the quote "The best camera is the one you have with you?" Applies to flashes, too. With the built-in flash, that "Ooh, there's not quite enough light" moment takes a single button press to fix. Without it, you're digging in your bag and fishing out the flash, then swearing when you realize you have to dig again for a replacement set of batteries, and two minutes later, you realize you missed the shot two minutes earlier.

Yes, I often know I'm going to need the flash, and put it on ahead of time. But I'd be lying if I said I always did. 

With an external flash, I also have to choose between having a flash and having my radio remote, because there's only one shoe to hold them both. With the built-in flash, it only takes a quarter extra second to slide the remote receiver out of the way so that the flash will flip up.

Finally, even the 270 EX II is huge compared with the built-in flash. I realize that this helps in terms of avoiding a lens shadow on the floor, but it's a considerable amount of weight and size.


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## vscd (May 23, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

So, everyone should carry more weight just for those who want a flash? I don't think so. I would like to see a
radio trigger inside and everyone could easily go out with a 90EX if he wants to. Normally never the build in flash 
saved a picture for me, because frontal white light always looked like a compromise to me. On sunny days with
backlight you can maybe have some advantage. If the flash could be turned to the side or upwise I would try it 
again.


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## insanitybeard (May 23, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



vscd said:


> So, everyone should carry more weight just for those who want a flash? I don't think so. I would like to see a
> radio trigger inside and everyone could easily go out with a 90EX if he wants to. Normally never the build in flash
> saved a picture for me, because frontal white light always looked like a compromise to me. On sunny days with
> backlight you can maybe have some advantage. If the flash could be turned to the side or upwise I would try it
> again.



Come on, does a built in flash really add much weight and bulk? I estimate the pop up flash of my 7D to weigh about 20 grams max. Canon presumably bases a camera's feature set on what it perceives the general target audience for the camera will want, you're never going to please everybody. Just as some people object to having video capability in an DSLR. Saying the built in flash never saved a picture for you doesn't make it apply to everybody else.


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## vscd (May 23, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



insanitybeard said:


> Come on, does a built in flash really add much weight and bulk? I estimate the pop up flash of my 7D to weigh about 20 grams max.



You're right, but it's another part to get broken, to be weathersealed and to rely on your batterylife. The whole
effort to give you a 100% view is higher with a builtin flash (which will count on the costs after all). Builtin flashs
are to close to the lens axis, they're prone to red eyes and harsh lightning. I would like to see a buildin trigger,
but maybe that differs the users of pro- or semipro cams. Without running anyone down, really.


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## AvTvM (May 23, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



vscd said:


> I knew that this answer will come and it seems to be a valid answer, but as I told... there are small external out there
> which can do the same. When I used build in flashs to trigger external ones, they always needed to "look" to the
> cam
> because they need a visual connection. This was mostyl no help while shooting, and furthermore the small central
> ...



Yes any "professional camera" from Canon introduced since 2012 should really have come with a RADIO flash trigger built in. It is totally absurd that Canon did not equip 5D III and 1D-X with a built-in EX-RT radio commander. It would have caused a lot of Canon users to dump their not-so-old speedlites 580+430EX/IIs along with their not-so-old pocketwizards and buy boatloads of new Canon 600EX-RTs ... plus ideally also somewhat less expensive 450EX-RTs as slave flashes. 

And it would have given Canon a truly unique product feature - since neither Nikon nor Sony no any other competetitor have benn able to provide built-in radio ETTL-flash mastering in their cameras. 

Such a radio trigger would come without moving parts, pose no sealing issues and no constant battery drain. And would probably cost less than 5 $ to integrate into a fairly large, "professional" DSLR.


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## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



insanitybeard said:


> Come on, does a built in flash really add much weight and bulk?



While it doesn't really add 'bulk' the protrusion of a popup flash is problematic when using a TS-E 17L or 24L II. Canon does provide an alternate, smaller shift knob to use with bodies that have a popup flash, but it's inconvenient (the little knob is pretty hard to access and turn when it's under the flash). 

So for me, given the 'bad' light from a weak flash so close to the lens axis, and the inconvenience of using a TS lens with the bulge of the on-board flash, I'm quite happy my camera doesn't have one.


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## Random Orbits (May 23, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



AvTvM said:


> Yes any "professional camera" from Canon introduced since 2012 should really have come with a RADIO flash trigger built in. It is totally absurd that Canon did not equip 5D III and 1D-X with a built-in EX-RT radio commander. It would have caused a lot of Canon users to dump their not-so-old speedlites 580+430EX/IIs along with their not-so-old pocketwizards and buy boatloads of new Canon 600EX-RTs ... plus ideally also somewhat less expensive 450EX-RTs as slave flashes.
> 
> And it would have given Canon a truly unique product feature - since neither Nikon nor Sony no any other competetitor have benn able to provide built-in radio ETTL-flash mastering in their cameras.
> 
> Such a radio trigger would come without moving parts, pose no sealing issues and no constant battery drain. And would probably cost less than 5 $ to integrate into a fairly large, "professional" DSLR.



Except that Canon would have had to have different camera body models because radio spectra and requirements vary from country to country.


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## jeffa4444 (May 23, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*

For the Canon 60d / 7d replacements to be successful they must move away from the present pixel pitch and increase the MP count. Smaller pixels in newer sensors are not as bad with noise and sensitivity as previous generations (this is born out in Sony professional video cameras) just tweaking the present 18MP sensor is not enough any longer. 
The biggest issue for Canon is NOT cameras or sensors but lenses and resolution many fail already with 18MP sensors to be sharp particularly into the corners lenses are seriously lagging sensors with many basic designs 10-15 years old their past retirement but hugely expensive to redesign & re-tool.


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## AvTvM (May 23, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



Random Orbits said:


> Except that Canon would have had to have different camera body models because radio spectra and requirements vary from country to country.



Nope. Just another urban legend. 
Canon is selling its Speedlite 660EX-RT and trigger ST-E3 globally. 
These devices are apparently using the very same frequency range/channels everywhere. 
Otherwise we would be seeing product variations - like "model A" or "B" ... or "Euro" vs. "US" vs. "Asia" type.


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## x-vision (May 23, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



dgatwood said:


> You know the quote "The best camera is the one you have with you?" Applies to flashes, too.



Yes ... but it makes you lazy too :-*.
You end up using the on-board flash rather than an external flash, which you can bounce or use with a diffuser.

So, I'm actually all for removing the on-board flash on the 7DII. 
I'd rather have WiFi (and a bult-in radio transmitter) than an on-board flash.


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## Random Orbits (May 23, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



AvTvM said:


> Random Orbits said:
> 
> 
> > Except that Canon would have had to have different camera body models because radio spectra and requirements vary from country to country.
> ...



Actually there is a 600EX (no RT) for what I assume is because of this reason. According to Wikipedia, the RT system is approved for use in 58 countries, so no, it is not global.


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## dgatwood (May 23, 2013)

*Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II*



x-vision said:


> dgatwood said:
> 
> 
> > You know the quote "The best camera is the one you have with you?" Applies to flashes, too.
> ...



Maybe you do. I certainly don't. If I expect to need a flash, I bring one, and I use it—the on-board flash stinks on ice with most of my lenses because they're too long and it's too low.  But it is better than nothing for quick shots when I wasn't expecting to need a flash, which does happen once in a while.


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