# Breaking down the latest Canon gear to appear for certification



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 17, 2018)

> This past week we saw an updated list of new and unreleased Canon gear that has appeared for certifications with various agencies around the globe. As always, the gear in question uses code names and not the regular naming conventions Canon uses. We spoke with some people over the weekend and think we know what most of the new gear is going to be.
> 
> *Canon DSLRs*
> The DSLRs are the hardest to figure out at the moment, as there is going to be some changes in how the lineup looks in 2019. While we hope to see a Canon EOS 7D Mark III, we haven’t heard anything that we’d consider reliable. If we go by the certification list below, there is a 32mp DSLR coming that we think is the Canon EOS 80D replacement and not the Canon EOS 7D Mark III. We think that a 32mp sensor would be too much for the speedy APS-C line of cameras. We could be wrong, but the EOS 7D was 18mp and the EOS 7D Mark II...



Continue reading...


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## jolyonralph (Sep 17, 2018)

It would be odd for the 5D class mirrorless to have a 6d Mark II size sensor and the 6D class to have a 5D Mark IV sensor  

It makes sense if the "EOS Rx" is a more video-oriented camera, but I think it more likely based on resolution and time difference that this will be the 6D class camera and priced less than the EOS R


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 17, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> It would be odd for the 5D class mirrorless to have a 6d Mark II size sensor and the 6D class to have a 5D Mark IV sensor
> 
> It makes sense if the "EOS Rx" is a more video-oriented camera, but I think it more likely based on resolution and time difference that this will be the 6D class camera and priced less than the EOS R



The resolution doesn't matter in the Canon lineup when it comes to tiers, the Rebels, 80D and 1DX for example.


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## padam (Sep 17, 2018)

It will probably be an entry-level full-frame camera for stills, so no on-chip ADC and 1080p video, 1999$ doesn't seem to be cheap enough for it.


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## Sharlin (Sep 17, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> It would be odd for the 5D class mirrorless to have a 6d Mark II size sensor and the 6D class to have a 5D Mark IV sensor



It makes sense if higher fps is the goal. But hopefully it won't be the same sensor as in the 6D2 or the internet is going to collapse into a black hole of rage


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## vjlex (Sep 17, 2018)

It strikes me as unusual to speak to sensor-size with any certainty this far out.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 17, 2018)

shunsai said:


> It strikes me as unusual to speak to sensor-size with any certainty this far out.



The maximum image resolution appeared in certification documents.


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## Sharlin (Sep 17, 2018)

> *EC 811 // Canon EOS M6 Mark II*
> 
> 24mp (approx)


Canon is probably going to milk that 24Mpix crop sensor architecture for a while. But I'd expect somewhat improved fps in return, beyond the slight improvement seen in the M50.


> *K437 // Canon EOS 90D (80D replacement)*
> 
> 32mp


I thought this might be plausible as well, but that would be an unprecedented resolution for an APS-C sensor. I don't think there are crop sensors exceeding 24MP currently generally available. Personally I'd prefer improved fps over improved resolution in a 80D successor.


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## marathonman (Sep 17, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The resolution doesn't matter in the Canon lineup when it comes to tiers, the Rebels, 80D and 1DX for example.


What about the upgrade to the 1DX Mkii then?


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## Architect1776 (Sep 17, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



I personally would like to see a less expensive FF R series camera. Provide a range a good quality FF R cameras and take the definition from enthusiast to regular consumer level in price. Sort of like Canon had the TX, FTb, EF and F-1. 5 levels of FF R cameras would be great. Lowest does not have FF 4K but has it as consumers would reject it otherwise. The FTb could be the current R then a 5D R with 50mp at 12 fps and FF 4K then a 5dsr at 8 fps an 70 mp sensor and downgraded 4K video, then the pro sport 1dx MII replacement at 36 mp and 24 fps and real serious 4K at FF and all the possible bells and whistles similar to the F-1 system that pretty much lacked for nothing. They gave you all the options available with that body.
Then an APSC line with the R like the 7D series being the 1dx apsc equivalent, finally the R equivalent to the XXD SL and Rebel as canon wishes to do one of each or so.


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## vjlex (Sep 17, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The maximum image resolution appeared in certification documents.


I only mention it to question if there's any possibility that these specs might change. They're just the specs for test bodies, right? Not finalized specs?


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## edoorn (Sep 17, 2018)

I agree it's more likely it's a higher end body, since I don't see how a lower price point would be an option. 

Although you never know; there are rumours Sony might release a more low entry FF mirrorless. If this would be a higher end body, it should pack quite a lot of punch in terms of speed, IQ and more controls...


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## BeenThere (Sep 17, 2018)

marathonman said:


> What about the upgrade to the 1DX Mkii then?


Don’t need to get to the 1DX level this quickly, but getting to a tracking servo AF speed of 6 to 8 FPS begins to get the sports/ action crowd interested. I think this is where the Rx is headed. Add a second memory slot to this and they probably have me hooked.


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 17, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> It would be odd for the 5D class mirrorless to have a 6d Mark II size sensor and the 6D class to have a 5D Mark IV sensor
> 
> It makes sense if the "EOS Rx" is a more video-oriented camera, but I think it more likely based on resolution and time difference that this will be the 6D class camera and priced less than the EOS R



It definitely is. I don't expect 26 mpx FF mirrorless camera to be entry FF line - 6D. Just look at the Canon 1DXII and Sony A9.

I can definitely see Canon give enough features for FF mirrorless to make compelling (FPS, dual card slot), but provide more features to FF DSLR (5DV?) at different time and price points.


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## geekyrocketguy (Sep 17, 2018)

No info on replacements for the 6D2 and 5D4? Disappointing... the 6D2 was obsolete when it came out.


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## Sharlin (Sep 17, 2018)

geekyrocketguy said:


> No info on replacements for the 6D2 and 5D4? Disappointing... the 6D2 was obsolete when it came out.



It is only disappointing if your model of how often Canon updates its various series of bodies is really inaccurate.


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## BeenThere (Sep 17, 2018)

geekyrocketguy said:


> No info on replacements for the 6D2 and 5D4? Disappointing... the 6D2 was obsolete when it came out.


Perhaps the 6D2 was disappointing when it came out, but many consumers are not well informed on nitty gritty details and make their decision mostly on price. So I don’t see a replacement soon.


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## docsmith (Sep 17, 2018)

Why two replacements (K435/K436) for the 77D?

Different colors?


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## Josh Leavitt (Sep 17, 2018)

*K437 // Canon EOS 90D (80D replacement)*


Single lens reflex camera
32mp
Yessss!!!!! A most worthy upgrade from my 8MP Canon 30D...


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 17, 2018)

shunsai said:


> I only mention it to question if there's any possibility that these specs might change. They're just the specs for test bodies, right? Not finalized specs?


They can change, but then, the camera has to be retested and relisted for certification. Sensor changes are rare at that point in the development, because it changes a lot more than just the sensor.


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## dak723 (Sep 17, 2018)

geekyrocketguy said:


> No info on replacements for the 6D2 and 5D4? Disappointing... the 6D2 was obsolete when it came out.



No offence intended, but this is the usual BS reply from a troll. Hope you're not one. 

P.S. Almost everyone who has a 6D II loves it. Their opinions count more than the internet trolls who only look at specs.


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## Talys (Sep 17, 2018)

dak723 said:


> No offence intended, but this is the usual BS reply from a troll. Hope you're not one.
> 
> P.S. Almost everyone who has a 6D II loves it. Their opinions count more than the internet trolls who only look at specs.



Didn't you get the memo? It's not about people buying a camera and being happy with it... what really counts is the people who won't ever buy the camera not being unhappy with the spec sheet


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## tron (Sep 17, 2018)

docsmith said:


> Why two replacements (K435/K436) for the 77D?
> 
> Different colors?


I was about to mention this when I read your post. I do not believe a 77D replacement would come in different colors. A mistake there is more likely.


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## transpo1 (Sep 17, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> Canon is probably going to milk that 24Mpix crop sensor architecture for a while. But I'd expect somewhat improved fps in return, beyond the slight improvement seen in the M50.
> 
> I thought this might be plausible as well, but that would be an unprecedented resolution for an APS-C sensor. I don't think there are crop sensors exceeding 24MP currently generally available. Personally I'd prefer improved fps over improved resolution in a 80D successor.



The Fuji X-T3 with 26.1MP sensor will be available this week.


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## transpo1 (Sep 17, 2018)

dak723 said:


> No offence intended, but this is the usual BS reply from a troll. Hope you're not one.
> 
> P.S. Almost everyone who has a 6D II loves it. Their opinions count more than the internet trolls who only look at specs.



I mean, at least he was given the benefit of the doubt in _not_ being a troll- usually, that's the conclusion everyone jumps to around here.


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## tron (Sep 17, 2018)

geekyrocketguy said:


> No info on replacements for the 6D2 and 5D4? Disappointing... the 6D2 was obsolete when it came out.


SInce you comment - right or wrong - upon 6D2 why do you include 5D4? 5D4 is obviously not obsoleted yet - even by your own standards...


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## tmc784 (Sep 17, 2018)

Josh Leavitt said:


> *K437 // Canon EOS 90D (80D replacement)*
> 
> 
> Single lens reflex camera
> ...


APS-C or FF , may I ask ?


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## Josh Leavitt (Sep 17, 2018)

tmc784 said:


> APS-C or FF , may I ask ?



The 30D is APS-C. If the K437 turns out to be the 90D (APS-C as well), then I'll break down and add it to my bag. I was using the antiquated 30D and 5D when I first jumped into photography. Then I upgraded to the 6D II last year, but I've always wanted the extra reach a high-res APS-C crop offered. I've been toying with the idea of getting an 80D for some time, but I'll wait for a 32MP 90D if it's announced soon.


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## Sibir Lupus (Sep 17, 2018)

Happy to see an M6 Mark II and M5 Mark II on this list . I know the M line has been in question after the EOS R's announcement, so this is a sign of relief at least for now. Seeing as the M100 is only about a year old, we probably won't be seeing an M200 on a certification list until sometime in the second half of next year.


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## jolyonralph (Sep 17, 2018)

geekyrocketguy said:


> No info on replacements for the 6D2 and 5D4? Disappointing... the 6D2 was obsolete when it came out.



Seems to be selling pretty well for an obsolete camera.


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## jolyonralph (Sep 17, 2018)

docsmith said:


> Why two replacements (K435/K436) for the 77D?
> 
> Different colors?



Mostl likely is that K437 is the 90D, and K435/K436 are the 78D and 850D respectively.

Although I am somewhat amusing myself, but noone else, in thinking that as the 77D followed the 760D, the next in that sequence should be the 7.8D


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## jolyonralph (Sep 17, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> It definitely is. I don't expect 26 mpx FF mirrorless camera to be entry FF line - 6D. Just look at the Canon 1DXII and Sony A9.



Unless there's a real shock coming I don't think Canon are able to compete with the A9 yet. No IBIS, sensor tech not yet close. Canon have some advantages, especially when it comes to DPAF, but I think an A9 or 1DX class mirrorless is a long way off..


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## josephandrews222 (Sep 17, 2018)

Sibir Lupus said:


> Happy to see an M6 Mark II and M5 Mark II on this list . I know the M line has been in question after the EOS R's announcement, so this is a sign of relief at least for now. Seeing as the M100 is only about a year old, we probably won't be seeing an M200 on a certification list until sometime in the second half of next year.



I expect Canon to grow the M series of bodies (and lenses, although not as much...) for many many years.

The Canon future is M for small-and-light APS-C shooters...and R for those who simply must have full frame (professionals and those who want to shoot like professionals!).

I am interested to see the G9X III on the list.

I still own a fully-functional S95; this tiny little body served us very very well.

I looked...and looked...and studied some more, when the G9X I (and II) came on the market.

I decided against purchasing both...with the tiny M2 + 22mm lens often in my hands, I find myself using the S95 less and less...

But here's the key, too.

For people/vacation-type pictures that do not require a flash, it turns out that the camera on the Apple 6s is...tremendous!

So there's another comparison for me to make, when deciding on the G9X III...vs the iPhone as well as a tiny M. For me, I'll be looking at how 'quick' and 'responsive' the G9X III seems...I was not impressed with the II's responsiveness, and I wasn't all that satisfied with what I saw from the 1" sensor inside of it, either. But I'm hopeful that the III will surprise me, in a good way.


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## Talys (Sep 17, 2018)

My biggest thing now is just do I buy an EOS R today or wait and buy a 26 MP R+ tomorrow. 

I suspect that I will be happier with the 26MP camera, and don't really want to end up with both.


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## kaptainkatsu (Sep 17, 2018)

marathonman said:


> What about the upgrade to the 1DX Mkii then?



I don't expect the 1DX3 to be much more than 24-26mp. 1DX3 will most likely be announced Late 2019-Early 2020 for late spring delivery.


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## JonSnow (Sep 17, 2018)

waiting for a mirrorless camera worth attaching the RF 50mm f1.2 and RF 28-70mm F2.0 too.

will not buy the 28-70mm but i sure be interested in the 50mm f1.2.

and i want to use that adapter with the ND filter with my TS-E 17mm.

but not on the EOS R or a 26MP body.

something fast and around 40-45MP... until then i stick to my trusty 5D MK4


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## Sharlin (Sep 17, 2018)

josephandrews222 said:


> I expect Canon to grow the M series of bodies (and lenses, although not as much...) for many many years.
> 
> The Canon future is M for small-and-light APS-C shooters...and R for those who simply must have full frame (professionals and those who want to shoot like professionals!).



Right. Small, inexpensive, APS-C is their bread and butter. With probably a hundred crop bodies sold for every FF, Canon wouldn't exist long as a company without those. The R being a bulky mount with expensive lenses, I don't think we're going to see consumer-level R bodies any time soon.


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## brad-man (Sep 17, 2018)

Sibir Lupus said:


> Happy to see an M6 Mark II and M5 Mark II on this list . I know the M line has been in question after the EOS R's announcement, so this is a sign of relief at least for now. Seeing as the M100 is only about a year old, we probably won't be seeing an M200 on a certification list until sometime in the second half of next year.


I think the release of the fastest APS-C lens in Canon's history is also testament to their continuing the M line. Hopefully they will soon announce the EF-M 53 f/1.8 IS...


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## fullstop (Sep 17, 2018)

No, EOS M line has never been really in question. Only some folks like Thom Hogan and a few n00bs who are unable or unwilling to understand Canon's transition from 2 mirrorslapper mounts (EF, EF-S) to 2 mirrorfree mounts (RF, EF-M).

EF-S is dead. EF is legacy. RF and EF-M will be around for many years to come.


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## goldenhusky (Sep 17, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> we don’t think an EOS R launching with the EOS 6D Mark II sensor and no 4K would be received all that well.



Then again we are talking about Canon here you know  BTW both *K435 and K436 says //Canon EOS 77D Replacement* . Please correct it to Rebel what? T8i? or EOS 850D


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## jolyonralph (Sep 17, 2018)

fullstop said:


> No, EOS M line has never been really in question. Only some folks like Thom Hogan and a few n00bs who are unable or unwilling to understand Canon's transition from 2 mirrorslapper mounts (EF, EF-S) to 2 mirrorfree mounts (RF, EF-M).
> 
> EF-S is dead. EF is legacy. RF and EF-M will be around for many years to come.



Except that EF-S has been given a huge new boost of life with the EOS R camera. Those EF-S lenses happen to be the best value lenses for 4K video on the EOS R. Throw on a EF-S 10-18 and you can do some great wide angle 4K footage.

Can you use your EF-M 11-22 for 4K ultrawide recording? Nope. Not until Canon release a EOS M with full-width 4K.

EF-M has been sidelined and positioned clearly as low-end. There will never be an APS-C 7D-class EF-M mount camera. 

I wouldn't rule out Canon launching an APS-C version of the EOS R to suit the 7D market (well, once they have a fast enough sensor) and even launching some RF-S lenses to suit it.

However.....
Remember the patent about exchangeable mounts? What if a future 7D class APS-C camera had interchangeable EF-M and RF mounts? I can't imagine it'd be cost-effective for Canon to do that but who knows...

EF is legacy. RF will be the semi-pro to professional mount, and EF-M will be relegated to low end. If you invest in the EF-M system you are stuck in it and won't be able to take advantage of RF lenses, nor will you be able to use your EF-M glass on a RF body, even one with an APS-C sensor. If you invest now in EF-S glass and use it with adaptors on your EF-M, your investment is far more safe, unfortunately.


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## HarryFilm (Sep 17, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> Unless there's a real shock coming I don't think Canon are able to compete with the A9 yet. No IBIS, sensor tech not yet close. Canon have some advantages, especially when it comes to DPAF, but I think an A9 or 1DX class mirrorless is a long way off..



===

Actually there is a Canon FF camera that just BLOWS AWAY the Sony A9!

The one I use for my stills during Sports, Wildlife and Action projects is Full Frame. Has a CONTINUOUS Burst rate of 60 FPS at full 4:4:4 RAW at 18+ megapixels for as along there is available storage medium. The sensor is BEAUTIFUL and has the utterly excellent DPAF and when I use the high end lenses has the most beautiful Bokeh! YES! It's a tad heavy and expensive when you fully kit it out but I'm used to that!

I say TRY the Canon C700 FF camera...one of top TWO best Stills Shooters out there! Only ONE other current production model camera can beat it and that manufacturer (Arri) has a camera that is TWICE the price (Alexa-65)!


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## Cryve (Sep 17, 2018)

There is NO WAY that the 32 mp camera is an aps-c camera. This is most certanly a full frame camera.

The other 24 mp cameras 435 and 436 could be the 80d replacement though, with a BSI sensor and 4k video features.
The 7d iii and the "90d" will share the same sensor, just as the 7d ii and the 70d did. Because of this, and because the 7diii 
will prefer a lower mp count for faster fps sensor readout and better low light, it is highly likely that canon will only give us a 24 mp sensor for the 7d iii and 90d for economical and practial reasons.


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## jolyonralph (Sep 17, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> ===
> 
> Actually there is a Canon FF camera that just BLOWS AWAY the Sony A9!
> 
> ...



Well, OK, I stand corrected in that  But they certainly don't have this sensor capability scaled down in both dimensions and price for it to be suitable in a MILC yet.


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## jolyonralph (Sep 17, 2018)

Cryve said:


> There is NO WAY that the 32 mp camera is an aps-c camera. This is most certanly a full frame camera.



You're probably right. I think that it may actually end up being the 5D Mark V after all - because right now the 5D Mark IV is looking rather poor value against the EOS R, they're going to have to reduce the price on the 5D IV and that leaves a hole for a more profitable model.


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## siegsAR (Sep 17, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> .... S n i p....
> 
> If you invest in the EF-M system you are stuck in it and won't be able to take advantage of RF lenses, nor will you be able to use your EF-M glass on a RF body, even one with an APS-C sensor. If you invest now in EF-S glass and use it with adaptors on your EF-M, your investment is far more safe, unfortunately.


This is how i see it on the EF-M side of things too, as someone who invested on it.
But it's success will lie on its perceived segmentation, this will be like EF-S was to EF BUT a lot less
flexible in terms of lens compatibility. Low end is a pretty strong word for a platform that will be
a favorite for consumers and a handy backup for prosumers.


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## Sibir Lupus (Sep 17, 2018)

josephandrews222 said:


> I expect Canon to grow the M series of bodies (and lenses, although not as much...) for many many years.
> 
> The Canon future is M for small-and-light APS-C shooters...and R for those who simply must have full frame (professionals and those who want to shoot like professionals!).



Seeing as we have two M bodies lined up for future release (according to certification list), I'm now curious as to what M lenses we can expect to come out in the future. Possibly faster zoom lenses? Longer telephoto lenses? Not really sure how many more prime lenses Canon would need to cover seeing as we already have one (or two if you count the 28mm macro) and the upcoming 32mm F/1.4.


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## Sibir Lupus (Sep 17, 2018)

brad-man said:


> I think the release of the fastest APS-C lens in Canon's history is also testament to their continuing the M line. Hopefully they will soon announce the EF-M 53 f/1.8 IS...



I think so as well, and looking forward to new M lens announcements in the future . BTW: A 53mm F/1.8 IS lens would be pretty interesting.


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## siegsAR (Sep 18, 2018)

Sibir Lupus said:


> Seeing as we have two M bodies lined up for future release (according to certification list), I'm now curious as to what M lenses we can expect to come out in the future. Possibly faster zoom lenses? Longer telephoto lenses? Not really sure how many more prime lenses Canon would need to cover seeing as we already have one (or two if you count the 28mm macro) and the upcoming 32mm F/1.4.


^ Since they legacie_d_ the 18-55, maybe they'll release a 15-85 like they have on EF-S.
My bet is on faster glass, whether primes or zooms(my bet is here).


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## Sibir Lupus (Sep 18, 2018)

fullstop said:


> No, EOS M line has never been really in question. Only some folks like Thom Hogan and a few n00bs who are unable or unwilling to understand Canon's transition from 2 mirrorslapper mounts (EF, EF-S) to 2 mirrorfree mounts (RF, EF-M).
> 
> EF-S is dead. EF is legacy. RF and EF-M will be around for many years to come.



I know it was never really in question from Canon's end, but there were quite a few discussions about this right after the EOS R announcement. I agree that the EF-M mount was always positioned to replace the EF-S mount at some point. Small and lightweight mirrorless cameras sell quite well and the M100 and M50 are further proof of this. Hoping the M5 Mark II is also a big (if not bigger) hit . Also, Canon needs to fill the M lens lineup a bit more, and maybe add an EF-M L lens or two into the mix.


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 18, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> Unless there's a real shock coming I don't think Canon are able to compete with the A9 yet. No IBIS, sensor tech not yet close. Canon have some advantages, especially when it comes to DPAF, but I think an A9 or 1DX class mirrorless is a long way off..



I agree with you. I don't think Canon is capable of delivering A9 sensor yet, but I think 26 mpx might be the professional version of the EOS-R. Just a slightly faster EOS-R with dual card slot, 7-10 FPS, better eyeAF and maybe IBIS. It will still now be fast enough to replace 1DXII, but it's enough for most photographers to buy into the system

26mpx isn't bad for wedding/portrait works. Who knows, they might push it to 28-30mpx. 

Didn't EOS-R was speculate to be around 24-28 mpx too and it turn out to be 30?


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## Sibir Lupus (Sep 18, 2018)

siegsAR said:


> ^ Since they legacie_d_ the 18-55, maybe they'll release a 15-85 like they have on EF-S.
> My bet is on faster glass, whether primes or zooms(my bet is here).



An 15-85mm would be a nice option between the more portable 15-45mm and longer reaching 18-150mm. Maybe with a variable aperture of F/2.8-5.6 throughout the zoom range. Possibly a constant F/4. Doubt they could pull off any EF-M zoom with a constant F/2 aperture. That is to say if Canon is even willing to go beyond the 61mm diameter size that all EF-M lenses have been so far.


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## Mr Majestyk (Sep 18, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> It would be odd for the 5D class mirrorless to have a 6d Mark II size sensor and the 6D class to have a 5D Mark IV sensor
> 
> It makes sense if the "EOS Rx" is a more video-oriented camera, but I think it more likely based on resolution and time difference that this will be the 6D class camera and priced less than the EOS R



Unless the 26MP sensor has BSI and or is stacked design, much faster readout speed so desperately needed for DPAF. This could be a true A7III competitor. Then again knowing Canon it could be another ho-hum crippled camera.


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## Jethro (Sep 18, 2018)

Talys said:


> My biggest thing now is just do I buy an EOS R today or wait and buy a 26 MP R+ tomorrow.
> 
> I suspect that I will be happier with the 26MP camera, and don't really want to end up with both.


This is indeed the question. But when will 'tomorrow' be?


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## 6degrees (Sep 18, 2018)

Will Zeiss commit to Canon RF?


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## sdz (Sep 18, 2018)

6degrees said:


> Will Zeiss commit to Canon RF?



Why wouldn't it committ?


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## streestandtheatres (Sep 18, 2018)

I'm thinking that there won't be a 7d mark iii.

Mirrorless is obviously where canon is heading with its lens development, except for the big primes. And if one can afford a big prime, I think canon might be happy with them also having to buy a 1dx-class ef-mount body. How many people really need 10fps, and who don't have the money for a 1dx mark II? Many in the fps crowd also have a 500, 600 or 200-400mm lens.

At the moment the 7dii makes a lot of sense with the 100-400, but how much money is canon going to make from that segment in the next 5 years? My hunch is that a lot of people in that segment also use their camera for other photography, and might like to put their cash towards a mirrorless camera to take advantage of the new lenses, too.


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## razorzec (Sep 18, 2018)

6degrees said:


> Will Zeiss commit to Canon RF?



There's nothing stopping Zeiss from supporting RF. the thing is they never made AF lenses for EF! 

An Otus Prime that works for both Z and RF mount is not going to be far fetched. it will have the best image quality and will cost a fortune but that's what Zeiss has been for decades or even centuries.


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## tron (Sep 18, 2018)

streestandtheatres said:


> I'm thinking that there won't be a 7d mark iii.
> 
> Mirrorless is obviously where canon is heading with its lens development, except for the big primes. And if one can afford a big prime, I think canon might be happy with them also having to buy a 1dx-class ef-mount body. How many people really need 10fps, and who don't have the money for a 1dx mark II? Many in the fps crowd also have a 500, 600 or 200-400mm lens.
> 
> At the moment the 7dii makes a lot of sense with the 100-400, but how much money is canon going to make from that segment in the next 5 years? My hunch is that a lot of people in that segment also use their camera for other photography, and might like to put their cash towards a mirrorless camera to take advantage of the new lenses, too.


 and need the converter for their white teles in the process. If Canon makes a 7DIII much better than 7DII and close or even better to Nikon's D500 that's all it needs to make money.
And to get the same pixel density for birding they will either have to make a high mpixel FF (= very expensive relative to 7DIII) or a crop mirrorless where wait there is the M series for that...


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## pj1974 (Sep 18, 2018)

Sibir Lupus said:


> An 15-85mm would be a nice option between the more portable 15-45mm and longer reaching 18-150mm. Maybe with a variable aperture of F/2.8-5.6 throughout the zoom range. Possibly a constant F/4. Doubt they could pull off any EF-M zoom with a constant F/2 aperture. That is to say if Canon is even willing to go beyond the 61mm diameter size that all EF-M lenses have been so far.



I own the Canon EF-S 15-85mm USM IS lens, and it's a great range for a walkaround on my APS-C DSLRs (80D, 7D, etc)
I also own the M5 with 15-45mm - which is so lovely and compact, but yes, I really miss the reach. If Canon could produce a 15-85mm, at the same size as the 15-45mm - that would be IDEAL (even if it was f/6.3, I would live with that)... but I realise the laws of physics are probably against us! (but even if it was the size of the EF-M 18-55mm that would be NICE!).

I have the EF-M 22mm which is great as an ultra-compact street prime too. I have the 18-150mm which is very versatile, and great for travel, but yes, makes the camera so much longer / bigger package. Having said that, I do find having the EOS M5 with 18-150mm and the Samyang 12mm f/2 is a GREAT versatile 2 lens travel package... very capable for a lot of situations (even night / astro-photography). IBIS for the M5ii would be killer!!!!


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## -pekr- (Sep 18, 2018)

fullstop said:


> No, EOS M line has never been really in question. Only some folks like Thom Hogan and a few n00bs who are unable or unwilling to understand Canon's transition from 2 mirrorslapper mounts (EF, EF-S) to 2 mirrorfree mounts (RF, EF-M).
> 
> EF-S is dead. EF is legacy. RF and EF-M will be around for many years to come.



Except nowadays you can use your higher end lens (EF) on a lower end APS-C bodies. Lots of ppl are doing exactly that imo. We did that too, with e.g. Sigma Art and Canon 70-200/2.8 II IS. We did this investment planning to enter FF one day. And we did so with the 5DIV. 

Your newly envisioned future of EF-R and EF-M only, removes that possibility though. For a brief period of time I thought, that Canon is going to scrap EF-M mount altogether, and introduce APS-C MILC with EF-R mount. It would be a tad bigger of course, but there would be just one mount, with an EF compatibility. But with recent addition of fast 32mm EF-M lens, it seems that Canon is commited to EF-M too.

On the zero transition possibility between the EF-M and EF-R - "well done", Canon ....


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## Talys (Sep 18, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Except nowadays you can use your higher end lens (EF) on a lower end APS-C bodies. Lots of ppl are doing exactly that imo. We did that too, with e.g. Sigma Art and Canon 70-200/2.8 II IS. We did this investment planning to enter FF one day. And we did so with the 5DIV.
> 
> Your newly envisioned future of EF-R and EF-M only, removes that possibility though. For a brief period of time I thought, that Canon is going to scrap EF-M mount altogether, and introduce APS-C MILC with EF-R mount. It would be a tad bigger of course, but there would be just one mount, with an EF compatibility. But with recent addition of fast 32mm EF-M lens, it seems that Canon is commited to EF-M too.
> 
> On the zero transition possibility between the EF-M and EF-R - "well done", Canon ....



I'm ok with this, much more so on EOS M/R versus DSLRs, primarily because Rebels and xxD's were an appropriate size to mount EF lenses, while, EOS M's are a terrible size to mount EF lenses. I mean, I've tried it -- it "works", but there's just no way I'd want to actually shoot a 70-200/2.8 with a M5, let alone anything smaller. And I certainly wouldn't want to mount anything larger.

Also, one big reason to mount an EF lens on a APSC DLSR was always the crop factor in the viewfinder (eg viewfinder magnification) on a telephoto, and of course, there's no reason to make a to telephoto EFS lens, all telephoto lens were going to be FF/EF design anyhow. However, with mirrorless, this isn't an issue, as you can magnify get an artificial crop mode and/or magnify in the EVF. Note that I'm not saying that mirrorless is superior; just that in the context of mirrorless, there's less reason to use an APSC body on a telephoto.

A question that comes to mind, however, if EFM and RF are indeed the future, is, will Canon build consumer-grade, telephoto and superzoom EFM mount lenses? I think they'd sell quite well. If there were an option available, I might even be persuaded to buy something like an M5 + superzoom for vacation.


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## brad-man (Sep 18, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> Except that EF-S has been given a huge new boost of life with the EOS R camera. Those EF-S lenses happen to be the best value lenses for 4K video on the EOS R. Throw on a EF-S 10-18 and you can do some great wide angle 4K footage.
> 
> Can you use your EF-M 11-22 for 4K ultrawide recording? Nope. Not until Canon release a EOS M with full-width 4K.
> 
> ...



I suppose by _low end_, you really meant to say _compact and light_, right? I mean, it has the best APS-C sensor that Canon currently has and a very user-friendly AF system. The EF-M lenses range from quite good to excellent IQ. Perhaps you've seen the MTF Chart for the latest EF-M release? The only downside I see is that the EF-M mount will not likely be compatible with the R-mount. I suppose this bothers some, but I don't care. I bought the EF-M/EF adapter when I first bought the M during the "fire sale" and it worked flawlessly with every EF lens I used with the M. The thing is, if I'm going to shoot something and I think I'll need a particular EF lens, then I bring the body that goes with that lens, be it crop or FF. I do not use the M as a backup, I use it as a camera that is easy to carry.


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## fullstop (Sep 18, 2018)

6degrees said:


> Will Zeiss commit to Canon RF?



who cares? 

Canon is not likely to license their RF lens mount protocol to anybody. And Zeiss does not seem to do reverse-engineered stuff = lenses without AF and without any of the advanced RF features. 

Manual focus glass? Not many takers left. Would really love to see sales stats / number of units sold for Zeiss ZE and Otus lenses. i bet it is "less than marginal". 

personally i would not even take a manual focus lens for free - including Zeiss/Otus. No AF = no use for it, not worth the hassle.


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## fullstop (Sep 18, 2018)

Talys said:


> will Canon build consumer-grade, telephoto and superzoom EFM mount lenses? I think they'd sell quite well



yes, but if Canon continues to keep all EF-M lenses to the same 61mm diameter and compact size, there appears to be limited scope for superzooms beyond the existing 18-150 ... even at f/6.3. Maybe a 18-200/4.5-6.3 is still possible. If so, canon will make one for sure. 15-85 ... yes, but at best with f/5.6 on long end. f/4 probably not possible in EF-M size? 

i don't see many more, new EF-M lenses to come. It will remain a small lens lineup - just as EF-S was. 

Personally I am only interested in a moderately fast, compact, decent IQ tele prime - EF-M 85/2.4 IS STM or thereabouts.

Canon EOS M/EF-M = decent IQ + good functionality and UI + compact size + affordable price. Perfect! It is exactly the opposite approach to Fuji X: "crop-only glass as expensive as FF lenses". So why should one buy it? if i look at the new Fuji 200/2.0 i cannot help but start laughing. 

Guess which product portfolio sells better (units and revenue): "low-end EOS M system" or "high-end Fuji X".


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## jolyonralph (Sep 18, 2018)

fullstop said:


> yes, but if Canon continues to keep all EF-M lenses to the same 61mm diameter and compact size, there appears to be limited scope for superzooms beyond the existing 18-150 ... even at f/6.3. Maybe a 18-200/4.5-6.3 is still possible. If so, canon will make one for sure. 15-85 ... yes, but at best with f/5.6 on long end. f/4 probably not possible in EF-M size?



I know for a fact that a high-end zoom lens was built up to test level for the EF-M, I didn't get the full details but I was told it was still variable aperture but much higher quality, so the assumption is something like the EF-S 15-85 lens. Maybe it will still come out as an option for the M5 Mark II, but I doubt it.

I think all we'll see on EF-M is similar lenses to those that we already have. I think a replacement for the EF-M 15-45 kit lens is next, but I doubt it'll be much more than coating updates. 

The problem for EF-M users is there is now no obvious reason to upgrade to Canon RF. If you had something like an Canon 70D before chances are once you start expanding your lens collection you'd end up with EF lenses as well as EF-S, maybe a 70-300, 50, 85mm etc. Then the move to FF isn't as painful as you already have some glass you can keep using.

And, if the Canon R *had* been EF-M mount rather than RF, current APS-C EF-M lenses would be just perfect for 4K video on it. But, for very good reasons, they didn't do that. 

The big question, as I've raised before, is what happens to the 7D class APS-C mirrorless? It wouldn't seem right for that to use the EF-M mount with no access to the future RF lenses, it'd have to be RF mount. Which means that RF-S lenses are actually a distinct possibility, and - as I've said before - that would lead to the EF-M being sidelined into a seperate compact APS-C family with no connectivity into the new family of RF (and possibly RF-S) bodies and lenses.


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## fullstop (Sep 18, 2018)

7D ... there will be a mirrorslapper 7D III, giving Canon and customers 4 years time to expand EOS R lineup - bodies and lenses. later on, 

* tele-centric 7D-class users will be migrated to future EOS R "sports/ fast action/ wildlife" camera/s. their existing EF teles will continue to work and new RF teles will become available over time. "viewfinder cropping" not as important in mirrorfree world. so overall "no big deal" 5 years into EOS R system.

* non tele-centric users can either go "small, decent and affordable" with enhanced future EOS M5 bodies or "step up to" EOS R. existing EF glass adaptable to both systems. so no big deal either.


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## aa_angus (Sep 18, 2018)

The Canon 6DII is the most amazing camera to shoot with. I adore using it so much. Absolutely outstanding in all areas for still photography (which is all that matters, since video wankers should buy video cameras).


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## aa_angus (Sep 18, 2018)

Lol RF-S lenses...yeah right. Sure. No, really. I want what you're smoking!


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## hachu21 (Sep 18, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> On the zero transition possibility between the EF-M and EF-R - "well done", Canon ....


the EF/EF-S ecosystem comes from a time where the market was very different. Canon made the choice to drop the in-brand compatibility between APSC and FF system, AKA "the upgrade path". I understand it can bother some. But you have to think about the main benefit :
- the smaller mount allow for more compact and light bodies and lenses (the 11-22 and the 22 are unrivaled for the quality/size ratio. And it seems that the 32 f/1.4 will fall in the same category)

Why this compactness/lightness is so important?
- because nowadays, all people discover photography with their phones. If you want them to go for a real camera system, something easy to carry, affordable and with a quality gap big enough is necessary. The old days of the rebel line are over (or soon to be).
- like the rebel days, the vast majority of the bodies buyers won't upgrade. On this segment, I think the majority doesn't want to carry heavy lenses or just can't afford them. 
- on this very segment, competition has never been so strong : Panasonic, olympus and fuji are dedicated to compact systems. Sony have very compact bodies too but with fewer lenses.

All in all, a dedicated mount to be able to produce a real compact and light system seem right to me. 

The mirrorless version of the 7D is another question though.
I agree with full stop. For the time being, since both EF-M and RF can mount flawlessly the EF long lenses, canon have several options.
- I think we'll see a 7D3 with mirror.
- the "7D4" (in 5+ years it seems…) could be a beffier EF-M,
- a RF body with state of the art APSC sensor doesn't seem right but who knows...
- or the higher pixel count FF can kill this line alltogether


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## jolyonralph (Sep 18, 2018)

aa_angus said:


> Lol RF-S lenses...yeah right.



Well, the other alternative is that the 7D class is dead after the 7D Mark III and will not be replaced with a mirrorless equivalent.

Probably no big deal because by that time Canon will have got their sensor act together and have full global shutter and the ability for a full-frame sensor to record APS-C shots much faster. So a 5DSR size full-frame sensor will give you a 20mpx APS-C crop image.


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## scyrene (Sep 18, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Except nowadays you can use your higher end lens (EF) on a lower end APS-C bodies. Lots of ppl are doing exactly that imo. We did that too, with e.g. Sigma Art and Canon 70-200/2.8 II IS. We did this investment planning to enter FF one day. And we did so with the 5DIV.
> 
> Your newly envisioned future of EF-R and EF-M only, removes that possibility though. For a brief period of time I thought, that Canon is going to scrap EF-M mount altogether, and introduce APS-C MILC with EF-R mount. It would be a tad bigger of course, but there would be just one mount, with an EF compatibility. But with recent addition of fast 32mm EF-M lens, it seems that Canon is commited to EF-M too.
> 
> On the zero transition possibility between the EF-M and EF-R - "well done", Canon ....



The question I think we need to bear in mind is, how many people use both FF and APS-C? We know a lot do anecdotally, but maybe they ran the numbers and don't think it matters if there's no compatibility between the two systems? EF-M seems to be aimed at those wanting a small and light system. Adding extra bulk by replacing it with RF would put some people off - maybe more than they'd gain by improving cross-compatibility? (And they'd really like us all to buy both systems and sets of lenses).


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## aa_angus (Sep 18, 2018)

The question why does ANYONE want to use crop sensor cameras in 2018? Is it the lower IQ or sacrificed DOF ability that they love so much?


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## Mikehit (Sep 18, 2018)

aa_angus said:


> The question why does ANYONE want to use crop sensor cameras in 2018? Is it the lower IQ or sacrificed DOF ability that they love so much?


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## jolyonralph (Sep 18, 2018)

aa_angus said:


> The question why does ANYONE want to use crop sensor cameras in 2018? Is it the lower IQ or sacrificed DOF ability that they love so much?



1. Smaller/cheaper standard lenses
2. Crop factor can be beneficial with longer lenses such as big whites when taking photos of things you're too lazy to walk closer to 
3. Faster frame rate than taking, for example, a 5DSR and cropping out the APS-C area.


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## tron (Sep 18, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> Well, the other alternative is that the 7D class is dead after the 7D Mark III and will not be replaced with a mirrorless equivalent.
> 
> Probably no big deal because by that time Canon will have got their sensor act together and have full global shutter and the ability for a full-frame sensor to record APS-C shots much faster. So a 5DSR size full-frame sensor will give you a 20mpx APS-C crop image.


It does now - and in fact I got a 5DsR for birding and I didn't regret it - but at more at double the cost.


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## jolyonralph (Sep 18, 2018)

tron said:


> It does now - and in fact I got a 5DsR for birding and I didn't regret it - but at more at double the cost.



Indeed it does, but what it doesn't do is record the cropped frames at anywhere near the speed of the 7D Mark II - even when using crop mode.


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## aa_angus (Sep 18, 2018)

At what point does a phone become a better tool than a crop sensor SLR? I'd take the just released iPhone over a 7D2. More useful. If you want to use a small sensor, you may as well use a small sensor with a load of advantages.


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## Mikehit (Sep 18, 2018)

aa_angus said:


> At what point does a phone become a better tool than a crop sensor SLR? I'd take the just released iPhone over a 7D2. More useful. If you want to use a small sensor, you may as well use a small sensor with a load of advantages.




Now stop it. My superior rectus is getting strained.


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## zim (Sep 18, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> Unless there's a real shock coming I don't think Canon are able to compete with the A9 yet. No IBIS, sensor tech not yet close. Canon have some advantages, especially when it comes to DPAF, but I think an A9 or 1DX class mirrorless is a long way off..



Question: Whilst I can't argue with those thoughts (don't know enough about it) would Canon be able to compensate for that lack of tech by throwing a stack of grunt into the camera? Even if they have to do a you get those extra fps's only with a battery pack which I wouldn't be averse too.


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## tron (Sep 18, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> Indeed it does, but what it doesn't do is record the cropped frames at anywhere near the speed of the 7D Mark II - even when using crop mode.


I agree. It is best for static subjects. Which means the 7DII has some use after all!


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## tron (Sep 18, 2018)

aa_angus said:


> At what point does a phone become a better tool than a crop sensor SLR? I'd take the just released iPhone over a 7D2. More useful. If you want to use a small sensor, you may as well use a small sensor with a load of advantages.


Don't forget to put a 500 or 600mm in front of your iphone to shoot birds!


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## zim (Sep 18, 2018)

streestandtheatres said:


> I'm thinking that there won't be a 7d mark iii.
> 
> Mirrorless is obviously where canon is heading with its lens development, except for the big primes. And if one can afford a big prime, I think canon might be happy with them also having to buy a 1dx-class ef-mount body. How many people really need 10fps, and who don't have the money for a 1dx mark II? Many in the fps crowd also have a 500, 600 or 200-400mm lens.
> 
> At the moment the 7dii makes a lot of sense with the 100-400, but how much money is canon going to make from that segment in the next 5 years? My hunch is that a lot of people in that segment also use their camera for other photography, and might like to put their cash towards a mirrorless camera to take advantage of the new lenses, too.



APSC users are very price conscious, even 7D users. Those RF lenses are very expensive. As a 7D user I feel Canon does not have an upgrade path for me... yet!
But it wouldn't take 'much' 24-26MP FF 5FPS, 8-10fps in 1.6 crop mode using my existing EF glass. When I say 'much' I mean shift in the spec sheets not the actual technical reality behind it!


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## bdbender4 (Sep 18, 2018)

aa_angus said:


> At what point does a phone become a better tool than a crop sensor SLR? I'd take the just released iPhone over a 7D2. More useful. If you want to use a small sensor, you may as well use a small sensor with a load of advantages.



Troll. Time for you to head over to an iPhone forum to check out the two new exciting releases. 

(My M5 takes nice images with an EF Zeiss 25 f/2 on the adapter. Manual focus (gasp) is great on mirrorless. 11-22 is great. Sold my pile of EF stuff earlier this year.)


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## jolyonralph (Sep 18, 2018)

zim said:


> Question: Whilst I can't argue with those thoughts (don't know enough about it) would Canon be able to compensate for that lack of tech by throwing a stack of grunt into the camera? Even if they have to do a you get those extra fps's only with a battery pack which I wouldn't be averse too.



That's exactly what they did with their high-end video cameras. Of course, at that price point you can afford to put in very expensive sensors that they don't yet have the capability of mass producing at high volumes.

The technology will make its way down, Canon will get IBIS and 1.0x 4K/60 etc in a future body, I'll be pleasantly surprised if that body comes out next year, but I think 2020 is more likely.


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## dak723 (Sep 18, 2018)

aa_angus said:


> The question why does ANYONE want to use crop sensor cameras in 2018? Is it the lower IQ or sacrificed DOF ability that they love so much?



The question is why does ANYONE want to use a FF sensor in 2018. Crop sensors have become so good that there is virtually no difference in IQ when I print up to 8" x 12". And I can't get shots with FF that have enough DOF when shooting flowers and similar close up work. 

Of course, I understand the advantages of FF, and am interested in the new R system, but the advantages of crop are many including greater reach, greater DOF, smaller size and weight (very important) and perhaps most important...COST.


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## fullstop (Sep 18, 2018)

aa_angus said:


> The question why does ANYONE want to use crop sensor cameras in 2018? Is it the lower IQ or sacrificed DOF ability that they love so much?



very simple. Me: EOS M + EF-M for size/weight and price/value.
Also got a 5D3 mirrorslapper and EF L glass, regret ever having purchased it. Too big, too fat, too heavy, too conspicuous ["cameras are not allowed here!"], way too expensive, way too noisy (classical music concerts/church etc.) , and "way too expensive" to risk damage on URBEX excursions or city trips. 

EOS M has close to 50k shutter actuations. 5D3 has less than 5000. Any questions?


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## mensaf (Sep 18, 2018)

Fingers crossed for that G7X Mark III! You're all welcome to argue over everything else. If it's the exact same camera as the Mark II but with DPAF, I'm 100% on board. Anything else is a bonus.


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## mensaf (Sep 18, 2018)

fullstop said:


> very simple. Me: EOS M + EF-M for size/weight and price/value.
> Also got a 5D3 mirrorslapper and EF L glass, regret ever having purchased it. Too big, too fat, too heavy, too conspicuous ["cameras are not allowed here!"], way too expensive, way too noisy (classical music concerts/church etc.) , and "way too expensive" to risk damage on URBEX excursions or city trips.
> 
> EOS M has close to 50k shutter actuations. 5D3 has less than 5000. Any questions?



I don't think people realize how small the EOS-M cameras are until they actually hold them. I preordered that new lens and if they announce a few more fast lenses, I'll be ready to let go of my L glass. The only real downside is the lack of Canon's excellent weather-sealing on those cameras, but that's probably more specific to what I do than most.


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## melgross (Sep 18, 2018)

tron said:


> Don't forget to put a 500 or 600mm in front of your iphone to shoot birds!


Yeah, if you’re going to talk about extreme use, sure. But it’s amazing that. I can now take 80% of my photos with my iPhone and have pretty good pictures. We know it’s not equal to a big camera, and that’s not the point.


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## tron (Sep 18, 2018)

melgross said:


> Yeah, if you’re going to talk about extreme use, sure. But it’s amazing that. I can now take 80% of my photos with my iPhone and have pretty good pictures. We know it’s not equal to a big camera, and that’s not the point.


iPhone costs more than many APS-C DSLR kits....


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## melgross (Sep 18, 2018)

dak723 said:


> The question is why does ANYONE want to use a FF sensor in 2018. Crop sensors have become so good that there is virtually no difference in IQ when I print up to 8" x 12". And I can't get shots with FF that have enough DOF when shooting flowers and similar close up work.
> 
> Of course, I understand the advantages of FF, and am interested in the new R system, but the advantages of crop are many including greater reach, greater DOF, smaller size and weight (very important) and perhaps most important...COST.



Because there are people who print much larger than that small size.

I just don’t get why people think that’s what good for them is good for everyone else.


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## melgross (Sep 18, 2018)

tron said:


> iPhone costs more than many APS-C DSLR kits....


The iPhone also does far more than a camera does, so it’s worth more to a lot of people.


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## tron (Sep 18, 2018)

melgross said:


> The iPhone also does far more than a camera does, so it’s worth more to a lot of people.


Comparing Apples to Oranges maybe?


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## dak723 (Sep 18, 2018)

melgross said:


> Because there are people who print much larger than that small size.
> 
> I just don’t get why people think that’s what good for them is good for everyone else.



Perhaps you missed the smiley faces and the fact that I said, "Of course, I understand the advantages of FF, and am interested in the new R system."

I sometimes think people ignore what people actually say in their posts just so they can be argumentative.


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## H. Jones (Sep 18, 2018)

Something I just considered while reading through this post--it wasn't long ago that the Canon sports cameras were all 1.3x crop. What if the future mirrorless 7D is a 1.3x crop sports camera, with 1.6x digital crop mode as well? That would definitely be a bridge between 1.6x EF-M mirrorless and full-frame RF mirrorless. 

My own disclaimer is, I never really particularly got the appeal of a 1.3x sensor, but it was obviously part of the business model for a while. 

All that said, my biggest focus right now is on a pro EOS-R. I would love to have my long glass on my 1DX Mark II and have the 28-70mm f/2L on a dual-slot CFast /SD 7-10 FPS(with tracking) EOS-R. All of my photos end up at 2 mp by the time they make it into the newspaper's filing system, so the only real spec that matters to me is getting the photo in the first place, between FPS, autofocus, battery and weathersealing. At a bare minimum, I need the FPS with tracking to beat my 5DIII before I could make that plunge.


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## Mikehit (Sep 18, 2018)

H. Jones said:


> Something I just considered while reading through this post--it wasn't long ago that the Canon sports cameras were all 1.3x crop. What if the future mirrorless 7D is a 1.3x crop sports camera, with 1.6x digital crop mode as well? That would definitely be a bridge between 1.6x EF-M mirrorless and full-frame RF mirrorless.
> 
> My own disclaimer is, I never really particularly got the appeal of a 1.3x sensor, but it was obviously part of the business model for a while.
> 
> All that said, my biggest focus right now is on a pro EOS-R. I would love to have my long glass on my 1DX Mark II and have the 28-70mm f/2L on a dual-slot CFast /SD 7-10 FPS(with tracking) EOS-R. All of my photos end up at 2 mp by the time they make it into the newspaper's filing system, so the only real spec that matters to me is getting the photo in the first place, between FPS, autofocus, battery and weathersealing. At a bare minimum, I need the FPS with tracking to beat my 5DIII before I could make that plunge.



The 1.3 crop APS-H offered no advantages as far as I could tell other than a stop gap on the way to the first FF bodies - all lenses are EF so designed for FF sensors so there is no saving on APS-H specific lenses. Pixel density on the 7D2 and the 5DSR is the same and it is that that determines 'reach' (god, how I hate that word in this context) so beloved of wildlifers not sensor size.
It won't come back because there is no reason for it to exist.


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## Mr Majestyk (Sep 19, 2018)

Why show a 7DIII camera as though it would be one of these cameras, when it's not. Clickbait.


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## Mr Majestyk (Sep 19, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> The 1.3 crop APS-H offered no advantages as far as I could tell other than a stop gap on the way to the first FF bodies - all lenses are EF so designed for FF sensors so there is no saving on APS-H specific lenses. Pixel density on the 7D2 and the 5DSR is the same and it is that that determines 'reach' (god, how I hate that word in this context) so beloved of wildlifers not sensor size.
> It won't come back because there is no reason for it to exist.



I could say that about the APS-C sensor. It has no reason to exist in my world. It's a weird non-industry standard 1.6x crop. Could have at least been 1.5x. Give me the best all-round sensor in the APS-H size any day thank you. Worst mistake Canon made was removing it as a 1 series sensor. 1DX are far too low in pixel density. By now we could have had a 1DVI with 24-28MP APS-H sensor which I'd take in a heartbeat over a 1DXII or the 7DII. It might not matter if they had of released a 1 series FF with decent pixel count, but 20MP is crap.


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## tron (Sep 19, 2018)

28mp at APS-H translates to 28 * (1.3^2) = 47.3Mpixel FF (same pixel density). This is very close to the pixel density of 5DsR and 7DII.


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## scrup (Sep 19, 2018)

If they bring a camera at a lower price point to the R, the internet will freeze over. Canon cannot do such a stupid move. They cannot possibly gimp the R any further. A lot of people are waiting for the R to drop to 1800 (1400 refurb) which is what it's worth. Lower model will keep the R price high.


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## Mikehit (Sep 19, 2018)

Mr Majestyk said:


> I could say that about the APS-C sensor. It has no reason to exist in my world. It's a weird non-industry standard 1.6x crop. Could have at least been 1.5x. Give me the best all-round sensor in the APS-H size any day thank you. Worst mistake Canon made was removing it as a 1 series sensor. 1DX are far too low in pixel density. By now we could have had a 1DVI with 24-28MP APS-H sensor which I'd take in a heartbeat over a 1DXII or the 7DII. It might not matter if they had of released a 1 series FF with decent pixel count, but 20MP is crap.



With APS-C they have APS-C specific lenses to give a smaller package. Whether you use it is irrelevant.
You seem to be saying that if Canon's APS-C had been 1.5 it would have been good? Otherwise I am not sure why you reference the sensor size.

The 20MP is a compromise of processing speed and IQ: the A9 is only 24MP and that was with a newer camera and better processing capacity. The difference between 20 and 24 MP is minimal - so I suppose you are saying the A9 is 'crap' as well?


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## aa_angus (Sep 19, 2018)

Can your massive 7DII change DOF in camera after the fact? I don't think so. iPhone does. Imagine *that*. Don't worry, us real (full frame) shooters can't manage that yet either. I usually close down the aperture or shoot wide if I want deep focus. I guess that's the beauty of full frame sensors, you really can control the DOF (though not as much as iPhone can)


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## melgross (Sep 19, 2018)

tron said:


> Comparing Apples to Oranges maybe?


Nope.


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## melgross (Sep 19, 2018)

dak723 said:


> Perhaps you missed the smiley faces and the fact that I said, "Of course, I understand the advantages of FF, and am interested in the new R system."
> 
> I sometimes think people ignore what people actually say in their posts just so they can be argumentative.



I saw them. Then you made a statement that I was also posting to that you didn’t end with smilies.


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## melgross (Sep 19, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> The 1.3 crop APS-H offered no advantages as far as I could tell other than a stop gap on the way to the first FF bodies - all lenses are EF so designed for FF sensors so there is no saving on APS-H specific lenses. Pixel density on the 7D2 and the 5DSR is the same and it is that that determines 'reach' (god, how I hate that word in this context) so beloved of wildlifers not sensor size.
> It won't come back because there is no reason for it to exist.



The H sensors allowed Canon to come up with sports cameras that were much faster than the FF models that Canon also had, while giving better IQ than their aps-c models. It was an interesting size. It gave sports and wildlife guys the ability to have their lenses seem longer too.


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## Mikehit (Sep 19, 2018)

melgross said:


> The H sensors allowed Canon to come up with sports cameras that were much faster than the FF models that Canon also had, while giving better IQ than their aps-c models. It was an interesting size. It gave sports and wildlife guys the ability to have their lenses seem longer too.



And yet the 1Ds3 with is APS-H sensor had 5fps while the 1D3 with its FF sensor (and released about the same time) had 10FPS.
The APS-H were a legacy of the transition from film to APS-C to APS-H to FF, there were not created so as to give any sort of reach or speed advantage. 
Canon dleted the APS-H for a very good reason: it simplified their manufacturing line-up and they likely canvassed a lot of pros as to whether they needed APS-H. Don't forget that pros (unlike a lot of weekend wannabes, myself included) try not to rely on cropping - they aim to get as close as possible and large in the frame as possible. Canon uses that as a guide for their gear line-up not people who use gear to make up for deficiencies in technique.


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## carlosalberto (Sep 20, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> And yet the 1Ds3 with is APS-H sensor had 5fps while the 1D3 with its FF sensor (and released about the same time) had 10FPS.
> The APS-H were a legacy of the transition from film to APS-C to APS-H to FF, there were not created so as to give any sort of reach or speed advantage.
> Canon dleted the APS-H for a very good reason: it simplified their manufacturing line-up and they likely canvassed a lot of pros as to whether they needed APS-H. Don't forget that pros (unlike a lot of weekend wannabes, myself included) try not to rely on cropping - they aim to get as close as possible and large in the frame as possible. Canon uses that as a guide for their gear line-up not people who use gear to make up for deficiencies in technique.




You are in error, the 1Ds3 is FF and 5 fps, the 1D3 is APS-H and 10fps. I had the 50d and 7d, today I have the 1D3, never I will return to APS-C. I do not find the sense.

PD: excuse my English, I hope you understand


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## Canedo (Sep 20, 2018)

canon playing their games as usual:
"Battery level indication is displayed in 4 increments" widely acclaimed by the masses.

Next feature in 5 years from now will be:
"0-100% battery indication" like a mobil phone, and when that happen, their will remove FHD @ 60fps and will give you HD only @30fps max. , but will give you GPS and NFC and WIFI, and etc.
Sorry, but it is funny how predictable canon has been historically.


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## padam (Sep 20, 2018)

One thing which I've noticed: so far every camera with Digic 8 has had UHD 4k MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 recording.

So maybe the lower-end EOS R with a sensor similar to the 6D Mark II will also get it.
Probably 1.6x crop factor and IPB compression only, it may only support UHS-I, since this way it should be fine with that.
I'm pretty sure that disabling the DPAF in 4k like the M50 wouldn't get a warm welcome, but maybe they will want to keep it at a distance away from the EOS R...?


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## amorse (Sep 20, 2018)

Interesting to look back at previous rumours for some of these:

K433 was identified back in March with K424 (which looks like it turned into the EOS R - https://www.canonrumors.com/34353-2/) when they were wireless testing. Both K433 and K424 were both still being found in testing in late June (https://www.canonrumors.com/new-canon-camera-bodies-appear-for-certification/). 

Maybe we're not as far out from the next FF mirrorless as we think as we think!


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## padam (Sep 20, 2018)

amorse said:


> Maybe we're not as far out from the next FF mirrorless as we think as we think!



They probably want the more expensive first model to fill the stocks first, before releasing the next one, possibly Q1 2019, the entry level FF was always coming last (and Sony did the same with the A7RIII before the A7III)


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## bks54 (Sep 20, 2018)

padam said:


> They probably want the more expensive first model to fill the stocks first, before releasing the next one, possibly Q1 2019, the entry level FF was always coming last (and Sony did the same with the A7RIII before the A7III)



K433 is much more likely to be a higher end (high speed) model.


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 20, 2018)

padam said:


> They probably want the more expensive first model to fill the stocks first, before releasing the next one, possibly Q1 2019, the entry level FF was always coming last (and Sony did the same with the A7RIII before the A7III)



I'm sure there are plenty of justification for them to do whatever they do. They can release the lesser model first to get feed back while working out some problems (IBIS, continuous eyeAF FW, etc) before they release it. It could also a marketing tactics since they are not ready to have it cannibalize their DSLR sale or wait until it's ready to release along side with 5D V DSLR equivalent. WHo knows.

Also just because Sony or another manufacture did something doesn't mean Canon will. Canon still haven't give AF protocol to third manufactures or give Full Frame 4K. 

I wouldn't be surprised if their 26MPx to be high speed professional camera and release it Q1 2019


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## padam (Sep 20, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if their 26MPx to be high speed professional camera and release it Q1 2019



It's the exact same pixel count as the 6D Mark II, so not very likely. And things like IBIS, redesigning the body, adding two card slots etc. are farther away when there are more lenses available.


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## bks54 (Sep 20, 2018)

padam said:


> It's the exact same pixel count as the 6D Mark II, so not very likely. And things like IBIS, redesigning the body, adding two card slots etc. are farther away when there are more lenses available.



It amazes me how pixel count alone can be enough to predict all the other features of a sensor and a camera.

So I suppose the Sony a7 and a9 are similar because they have the same pixel count?


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## padam (Sep 20, 2018)

bks54 said:


> It amazes me how pixel count alone can be enough to predict all the other features of a sensor and a camera.
> 
> So I suppose the Sony a7 and a9 are similar because they have the same pixel count?


Of course not, you just need to check the earlier rumors, before it was announced. The 30.4 megapixel one was rumored to be the _higher-end_ model of the two, so there can be a pretty good idea about what the _lower-end_ model is going to be like...


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## Matthew Saville (Sep 20, 2018)

dak723 said:


> No offence intended, but this is the usual BS reply from a troll. Hope you're not one.
> 
> P.S. Almost everyone who has a 6D II loves it. Their opinions count more than the internet trolls who only look at specs.


No offense intended, but the 6D2 should be burned in effigy in front of Canon HQ. It was a shameful moment that proves they have very little desire to be truly competitive at that price range, a price range where in this day and age a paid professional can find multiple other options to rely on for their work. 

Canon needs to get over their status/classification business tactics, and stop reserving so many features for their >$3K class cameras. The EOS R proves that while Canon still knows how to design great cameras and come up with cool new features, they're at serious risk of being ignored completely by those who are locked into the ~$2K price range and unable to bump up to >$3K.

For every happy 6D2 owner you've met, I've probably met 1-2 who gave up and went with a D750 or A7iii...


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## Matthew Saville (Sep 20, 2018)

JonSnow said:


> waiting for a mirrorless camera worth attaching the RF 50mm f1.2 and RF 28-70mm F2.0 too.
> 
> will not buy the 28-70mm but i sure be interested in the 50mm f1.2.
> 
> ...


The 50 RF is incredible. It absolutely blows the EF 50 1.2 out of the water, for both sharpness and AF speed+reliability. I've used it on the EOS R at two weddings so far, and found it to be the most reliable prime I've ever used on a wedding dance floor, by a long shot.

As a wedding photographer, I'm definitely very excited for the >$3K version of this camera; hopefully they don't just go straight to 50+ MP though, unless the mRAW quality is flawless. I'd much rather see them adopt the same tactic as Nikon and Sony, and debut two identical bodies with different mid-res and high-res sensors.


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## bks54 (Sep 20, 2018)

padam said:


> Of course not, you just need to check the earlier rumors, before it was announced. The 30.4 megapixel one was rumored to be the _higher-end_ model of the two, so there can be a pretty good idea about what the _lower-end_ model is going to be like...



Rumors are rumors, but I don't remember any rumor that suggested that the first FF mirrorless would be a higher end model, and there have been many arguments advanced that the R will be followed by a higher end model in the next year or so.

See the original post of this thread "So expect this to be a higher-end EOS R mirrorless camera. *update – I didn’t want to mention it (but it has been on the forum), but we don’t think an EOS R launching with the EOS 6D Mark II sensor and no 4K would be received all that well."

Beyond rumors of pixel count, there are plenty of other pointers suggesting that the R is a lower-end initial foray, among them being the introductory price, 6D features such as the single card slot, relatively modest frame rates etc. But the strongest suggestion of all is that two absolutely top of the range lenses have been introduced with the R, and strong rumors are that f2.8 zooms are coming. These are obviously destined to be mounted on a larger, faster, more "pro" body.


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## Matthew Saville (Sep 20, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> Seems to be selling pretty well for an obsolete camera.


This is the kind of brainwashed stuff that Canon can NOT afford right now. Please, don't make excuses or flawed arguments for Canon, when what they really need is the encouragement to do better.

As someone who reviews camera gear for a living, this is my biggest gripe with Canon fans- stop making excuses for the brand. You're not doing them any favors by going on "troll patrol". It only puts the brand at risk of getting out of touch with what they might actually be facing.

Canon needs to know when they're being uncompetitive. They don't need a pat on the back when they produce a camera that lacks numerous key competitive features which a competitor is putting out.

The 6D2 should have had both 5-series AF, and dual SD card slots, period, to compete better with the Nikon D750, and now the A7iii. And don't tell me how that would cannibalize 5-series sales. Volume and profit margins can be worked out, and sometimes the long-term goal of customer satisfaction is more important than a few quarterly figures.

Canon needs to better serve this particular ~$2K market because it is a very important one right now. The beginner camera market is easy; it's just sales pitches and a few "look at all thosee white lenses the pros are using!" ad campaigns. The pro market is easy too; Canon has (almost) always offered solid products that pros can rely on. But at this new "prosumer" price point, Canon may seriously hurt themselves if a 6Dmk3 or an EOS R mk2 don't step up their spec sheets. And making excuses for Canon doesn't help their chances of stepping up their game. If you love the brand so much, you should be the most critical of them when they make a blunder.

I'm actually about to publish my full review of the EOS R, and to be honest I'm probably more excited about this camera than every other review or initial report that I've read so far. It's a truly awesome camera. But I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't scold Canon for thinking they can get away with leaving out certain specs and assuming ALL serious photographers will just calmly wait and spend an extra $1K for the next-up model in 6-12 months.


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## jolyonralph (Sep 20, 2018)

Matthew Saville said:


> As someone who reviews camera gear for a living, this is my biggest gripe with Canon fans- stop making excuses for the brand. You're not doing them any favors by going on "troll patrol". It only puts the brand at risk of getting out of touch with what they might actually be facing.
> 
> Canon needs to know when they're being uncompetitive. They don't need a pat on the back when they produce a camera that lacks numerous key competitive features which a competitor is putting out.



Canon doesn't need anyone to tell them when they're being uncompetitive. They have their sales figures and market intelligence to know that. 

I'm not defending Canon. I don't think the 6DII is an inspiring camera and it's not something I would buy myself. But the reality is that Canon are in the game to make money, and if they can make as much profit out of something with a lower spec than the competition because they're being far more conservative in feature upgrades, then that's what they'll do. 

Most people upgrading to full-frame have come through APS-C, and at that point they're far more than likely to stick with the brand they are used to, so Canon don't have to worry too much.

I don't like it, and I'm not defending it, but I'm a realist. 

The point is, that the 6D is disappointing to many of us, it's disappointing to reviewers, but it IS selling well. Which goes to show that Canon know their market far better than any of us do, and trying to give them advice is pretty stupid.


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 20, 2018)

padam said:


> It's the exact same pixel count as the 6D Mark II, so not very likely. And things like IBIS, redesigning the body, adding two card slots etc. are farther away when there are more lenses available.



It's like what bks54 said, A7III & A9 has the same mpx yet they are different tier. 

There were rumored of 2 FF mirrorless camera in the works for sometime now. Only 1 was released. They could have made 2 version of the camera for 2 different market in the beginning - bigger body, 2 card slot, IBIS, etc. Obviously less complicated camera could have release first while they still working some kinks out or waiting for more lens to be made available (again we do know how long they have developing). 

The two RF lens 24-70 2.8 & 70-200 2.8 also signal they mean business. They aren't saving that to announce with a Canon 6D II equivalent camera


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 20, 2018)

Matthew Saville said:


> This is the kind of brainwashed stuff that Canon can NOT afford right now. Please, don't make excuses or flawed arguments for Canon, when what they really need is the encouragement to do better.
> 
> As someone who reviews camera gear for a living, this is my biggest gripe with Canon fans- stop making excuses for the brand. You're not doing them any favors by going on "troll patrol". It only puts the brand at risk of getting out of touch with what they might actually be facing.
> 
> ...



Thanks Matthew. When and where can we expect the review. I wish the continuous eyeAF firmware is released before you finish the review. That definitely deserve a closer look.

I completely with all you said. Canon has been dragging their feet for a long time. There are alot of players in the game now and if they don't step up, there are so many alternative especially if you can use adapted lens. Once Sony figure out the ergonomic issues and put that 5.6 million EVF with high refresh rate, it's enough for me to reconsider Sony.


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## Matthew Saville (Sep 20, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> ...if they can make as much profit out of something with a lower spec than the competition because they're being far more conservative in feature upgrades, then that's what they'll do...


I don't think you're understanding how the industry works, and how these large corporations stay in-touch with their user base. Ironically, "trying to give them advice" is (one of) my job(s), and I can confirm that they DO listen when the gear review industry offers (even harsh) feedback, even when it is just a bunch of camera geeks whining about a spec sheet. (Although that is personally NOT how I roll.)

Being "in the game to make money" has many factors that play into it, and sometimes the long-term survival must be considered more valuable than the short-term sales figures of one or two cameras.

The fact is, Canon is losing potential buyers left and right to the Sony A7-series lineup, and that's not up for debate. 6D2 sales may be great, but that's not a safe long-term projection. Your own signature lists one Sony body which debuted at >$3K, even. Canon could have instead sold you a 5DsR plus a MILC version of that camera, no? And, at this point, I'm losing count of how many times I'm seeing new photographers asking online about which camera is the best, and others will suggest either getting an A7iii, a D750, or skipping the 6D2 altogether and getting a used 6D, "if all you care about is image quality and not the articulated/touchscreen LCD..." No exaggeration, I've seen that exact advice given at least a hundred times.

I don't profess to be an expert market analyst, just a keen observer of the last ~20 years worth of market trends and competitive shifts...


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## padam (Sep 20, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> It's like what bks54 said, A7III & A9 has the same mpx yet they are different tier.
> 
> There were rumored of 2 FF mirrorless camera in the works for sometime now. Only 1 was released. They could have made 2 version of the camera for 2 different market in the beginning - bigger body, 2 card slot, IBIS, etc. Obviously less complicated camera could have release first while they still working some kinks out or waiting for more lens to be made available (again we do know how long they have developing).
> 
> The two RF lens 24-70 2.8 & 70-200 2.8 also signal they mean business. They aren't saving that to announce with a Canon 6D II equivalent camera


The model structure is actually fairly similar to Nikon, which released the two models at the same time(with a delayed availability for the Z6), so the other one that's currently missing is the cheaper one It is also leaked that the multi-function bar will be missing from the other EOS R model, makes sense since the 6D II is also simpler than the 5D IV.

The technology to do a higher-end model is just isn't quite there yet for Canon and Nikon, the best it can realistically happen is a mirrorless 1DX II derivative. Same for Nikon, there will be higher-end models, just not so suddenly. Same for IBIS, it will come of course at some point, but it will take some time, since it will be a first for Canon.
Releasing Pro lenses in the meantime will not hurt anybody, they will work perfectly well with the EOS R for the time being.


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## Matthew Saville (Sep 20, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> Thanks Matthew. When and where can we expect the review. I wish the continuous eyeAF firmware is released before you finish the review. That definitely deserve a closer look.
> 
> I completely with all you said. Canon has been dragging their feet for a long time. There are alot of players in the game now and if they don't step up, there are so many alternative especially if you can use adapted lens. Once Sony figure out the ergonomic issues and put that 5.6 million EVF with high refresh rate, it's enough for me to reconsider Sony.


It will be on SLR Lounge.

I didn't miss eye AF in Servo mode, because I'm usually not using Servo to focus that closely on subjects, I do just fine with One-Shot even with f/1.2. I'm serious man, that new 50 RF does. not. miss. Every missed shot I have is 100% sloppy technique on my part, haha.

As a wedding & portrait shooter, AF reliability is one of my top priorities, and the bottom line is that Canon has proven that the RF system will deliver. I can't wait for their >$3K version of this camera, hopefully with both IBIS and dual card slots. But as I said I would be failing to do my job if I didn't scold Canon for leaving those two features out of their ~$2K camera in today's market. The EOS R itself is good enough in general that it would have been a complete shut-out of "Sony ship-jumping" that could have resulted in much bigger profits (I suspect) for Canon than any lost sales of a >$3K version of the camera. Again, there's plenty of ways to differentiate camera classes. Put a few more FPS, a giant buffer, and SD+CFast in the >$3K camera. Put a few more flaghsip style ergonomic controls, maybe. But IBIS and dual SD card slots are par for the ~$2K camera market, at this point. Heck, we've had dual SD for over 6 years in ~$2K Nikon DSLRs!) (And yes, I'm giving Nikon the same level of shame for going with a single XQD slot in their Z-series; although the Z6 with its un-cropped 4K video and IBIS is a much more attractive option, still.)


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## bks54 (Sep 20, 2018)

padam said:


> The model structure is actually fairly similar to Nikon, which released the two models at the same time(with a delayed availability for the Z6), so the other one that's currently missing is the cheaper one It is also leaked that the multi-function bar will be missing from the other EOS R model, makes sense since the 6D II is also simpler than the 5D IV.
> 
> The technology to do a higher-end model is just isn't quite there yet for Canon and Nikon, the best it can realistically happen is a mirrorless 1DX II derivative. Same for Nikon, there will be higher-end models, just not so suddenly. Same for IBIS, it will come of course at some point, but it will take some time, since it will be a first for Canon.
> Releasing Pro lenses in the meantime will not hurt anybody, they will work perfectly well with the EOS R for the time being.



How on earth would a mirrorless 1DXII derivative be anything other than high-end? And where did you hear a leak about the multi-function bar being missing?


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## padam (Sep 20, 2018)

bks54 said:


> How on earth would a mirrorless 1DXII derivative be anything other than high-end? And where did you hear a leak about the multi-function bar being missing?


Yep, back to my original observation, we can predict that the next camera is *not* going to use a 1DXII-like sensor, so it is _probably not_ the next model to be released...


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## jolyonralph (Sep 20, 2018)

Matthew Saville said:


> The fact is, Canon is losing potential buyers left and right to the Sony A7-series lineup, and that's not up for debate. 6D2 sales may be great, but that's not a safe long-term projection. Your own signature lists one Sony body which debuted at >$3K, even. Canon could have instead sold you a 5DsR plus a MILC version of that camera, no?



They didn't have the sensor tech or capabilities to produce an A7RII type camera then, they don't even now. Thrashing Canon for not being able to compete when they know absolutely well that they can't compete is of course part of your job, but all I'm saying is I understand their motives for producing a less-than remarkable 6DII. 


ps. Sony's entry into the Camera market reminds me of the shakeup in the games console market in the 90s. Everyone thought that Sega and Nintendo were invincible. Where's Sega now?


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## Matthew Saville (Sep 20, 2018)

padam said:


> Yep, back to my original observation, we can predict that the next camera is *not* going to use a 1DXII-like sensor, so it is _probably not_ the next model to be released...


In my direct conversations with Canon, the impression I've gotten is that indeed, everything from technology to ergonomics needs to be truly flawless before a pro can trust it. That's just the way it goes when you're making a camera for someone shooting Olympic sports etc.

So, the EOS R is their first step because it's very likely to be extremely popular despite its 2-3 unfortunate spec sheet omissions. And getting a camera into the most hands, getting the most possible feedback, is the fastest way to get to a "perfect" 1-series RF body.

I too was surprised that we didn't see two bodies at the same time, one ~30 MP and one ~60 MP. But having worked with the EOS R for a few weeks now, I can see that while it's a delight to use, there are still both ergonomic and tech-related quirks to be improved on before it can be called a serious pro body.


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## Matthew Saville (Sep 20, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> They didn't have the sensor tech or capabilities to produce an A7RII type camera then, they don't even now. Thrashing Canon for not being able to compete when they know absolutely well that they can't compete is of course part of your job, but all I'm saying is I understand their motives for producing a less-than remarkable 6DII.
> 
> 
> ps. Sony's entry into the Camera market reminds me of the shakeup in the games console market in the 90s. Everyone thought that Sega and Nintendo were invincible. Where's Sega now?


I guess Sega was the Myspace of the game console world.

BTW, don't forget one of the most popular systems of all, the *SONY* Playstation. ;-)  Proof that they know how to both shake up a market AND survive long-term, indeed...


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## bks54 (Sep 20, 2018)

padam said:


> Yep, back to my original observation, we can predict that the next camera is *not* going to use a 1DXII-like sensor, so it is _probably not_ the next model to be released...



I was hoping that you would actually provide some evidence for your original observation. The rumored EOS Rx or whatever will supposedly have a 26 mp sensor. My point is that such a sensor "size" could arguably be appropriate for higher-speed, higher-spec camera, and that the R is positioned in the lower tier of Canon FF cameras if you look at its somewhat constrained feature set and price. I'm still convinced that they next R will be a more expensive, higher-spec release.


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## padam (Sep 20, 2018)

bks54 said:


> I was hoping that you would actually provide some evidence for your original observation. The rumored EOS Rx or whatever will supposedly have a 26 mp sensor. My point is that such a sensor "size" could arguably be appropriate for higher-speed, higher-spec camera, and that the R is positioned in the lower tier of Canon FF cameras if you look at its somewhat constrained feature set and price. I'm still convinced that they next R will be a more expensive, higher-spec release.


The information is there for everyone, the difference is (once again) using common sense based on the facts that are already known, and getting abused for it (even though there are many other sites, which came to the exact same conclusions based on the same information...)


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## bks54 (Sep 20, 2018)

padam said:


> The information is there for everyone, the difference is (once again) using common sense based on the facts that are already known, and getting abused for it (even though there are many other sites, which came to the exact same conclusions based on the same information...)



Peace brother. Disagreement is not abuse.


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## Matthew Saville (Sep 20, 2018)

bks54 said:


> I was hoping that you would actually provide some evidence for your original observation. The rumored EOS Rx or whatever will supposedly have a 26 mp sensor. My point is that such a sensor "size" could arguably be appropriate for higher-speed, higher-spec camera, and that the R is positioned in the lower tier of Canon FF cameras if you look at its somewhat constrained feature set and price. I'm still convinced that they next R will be a more expensive, higher-spec release.


Again I have no official confirmation, but the STRONG hint at the official EOS R press release, from the mouths of Canon themselves, was that the next (imminent, even) RF system camera is going to be an "s/R" style camera, not an "X/1" style camera. I think this is a hint that we can take to the bank.


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## bks54 (Sep 20, 2018)

Matthew Saville said:


> Again I have no official confirmation, but the STRONG hint at the official EOS R press release, from the mouths of Canon themselves, was that the next (imminent, even) RF system camera is going to be an "s/R" style camera, not an "X/1" style camera. I think this is a hint that we can take to the bank.



Yes, I agree with this, but if true then either the leaked certification information omits this s/R style camera or the leaked specs for the K433 (26 mp) are wrong.

BTW, your web sites are inspirational.


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## Matthew Saville (Sep 20, 2018)

bks54 said:


> Yes, I agree with this, but if true then either the leaked certification information omits this s/R style camera or the leaked specs for the K433 (26 mp) are wrong.
> 
> BTW, your web sites are inspirational.


I guess we'll have to wait and see.

There was ALSO the hint that the EOS R would (eventually) get a "younger sibling", too. So maybe Canon has a ~$1499 version of the EOS R up their sleeves, with leftover 6D2 sensors going into that camera.
If their "classic" 18 MP APS-C sensor is any indicator, Canon has no qualms about re-using a half-decent sensor over and over again, in lower-tier bodies.


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## bks54 (Sep 20, 2018)

Matthew Saville said:


> I guess we'll have to wait and see.
> 
> There was ALSO the hint that the EOS R would (eventually) get a "younger sibling", too. So maybe Canon has a ~$1499 version of the EOS R up their sleeves, with leftover 6D2 sensors going into that camera.
> If their "classic" 18 MP APS-C sensor is any indicator, Canon has no qualms about re-using a half-decent sensor over and over again, in lower-tier bodies.



You didn't just call the 6D2 sensor "half-decent" did you?


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## SaP34US (Sep 20, 2018)

What exactly would 6DII type mirrorless camera have? 
Cropped 4K or no 4K
8 fps more or LESS
My thought is that if the bring out 2 FF mirrorless cameras Q1 or Q2 next year one with one may well have a 26 mp while being $1599 or $1699 and the other that 50 mp while being $3000 or $4000.


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 20, 2018)

Matthew Saville said:


> Again I have no official confirmation, but the STRONG hint at the official EOS R press release, from the mouths of Canon themselves, was that the next (imminent, even) RF system camera is going to be an "s/R" style camera, not an "X/1" style camera. I think this is a hint that we can take to the bank.



Can you clarify what you say? What's s/R style camera? Lower spec camera?


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## bks54 (Sep 20, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> Can you clarify what you say? What's s/R style camera? Lower spec camera?


5Ds/5Dsr presumably


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## Matthew Saville (Sep 20, 2018)

bks54 said:


> You didn't just call the 6D2 sensor "half-decent" did you?


Every full-frame sensor released in the last 5+ years has been "half decent". But we don't spend $2K+ on a camera system for "half decent" now, do we? Actually, I take that back; PLENTY of photographers may buy whichever camera they think is the best on-paper, and yet in real world use they don't even come close to pushing the envelope as far as that camera could possibly take them. So yeah, the 6D2 is a fantastic camera for anyone who simply doesn't push the envelope that much. But then again those are also the idiots who probably shouldn't have bothered upgrading from their 80D in the first place, LOL, and just worked on taking better pictures first. ;-)


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## Matthew Saville (Sep 20, 2018)

SaP34US said:


> What exactly would 6DII type mirrorless camera have?
> Cropped 4K or no 4K
> 8 fps more or LESS
> My thought is that if the bring out 2 FF mirrorless cameras Q1 or Q2 next year one with one may well have a 26 mp while being $1599 or $1699 and the other that 50 mp while being $3000 or $4000.


This. I didn't ask /directly/, but based on conversations I'd say there's a 99.9% chance that we'll have a total of 3 RF bodies in ~12 months, not just 2, and there will be both a cheaper and more high-end option. The higher-end option will NOT be a >$5K flagship. The only question seems to be, therefore, which sensor will they put in a ~$3500 s/R class camera? The same 30 MP sensor, or a 50-60 MP sensor? I suspect the latter, in which case I truly hope that its mRAW and sRAW show zero loss of dynamic range, because I'm not shooting 16+ hour Hindu weddings on a 60 MP camera LOL.


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## dba101 (Sep 20, 2018)

But then again those are also the idiots who probably shouldn't have bothered upgrading from their 80D in the first place, LOL, 

How can you call people that ? Who are you ? Do you actually know everything? or are you getting a bit ahead of yourself?


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## Matthew Saville (Sep 21, 2018)

dba101 said:


> But then again those are also the idiots who probably shouldn't have bothered upgrading from their 80D in the first place, LOL,
> 
> How can you call people that ? Who are you ? Do you actually know everything? or are you getting a bit ahead of yourself?


Who I am is a generally peaceful person who can't stand to see people fighting over which new camera has a 1/6 EV advantage over the other, who sometimes go so far as to scoff at or scold those who haven't "upgraded" yet, ...meanwhile their portfolios and shooting habits reveal that their own images don't even come close to pushing those exotic cameras/lenses to their full potential.

If YOU are the type of person who 1.) pushes your camera to its limits, and/or 2.) doesn't judge other people for not having the latest gear, ...then we have no real disagreement.

BTW, if you're wondering just what "pushing the envelope" means these days, here's an example of using both a camera and lens at or near its limits: (Spoiler alert: the Nikon Df failed, and the Canon 6D (mk1) had to come to the rescue, due to Nikon's stupid continuous shooting 99-frame limitation.)


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## takesome1 (Sep 21, 2018)

Matthew Saville said:


> So yeah, the 6D2 is a fantastic camera for anyone who simply doesn't push the envelope that much. But then again those are also the idiots who probably shouldn't have bothered upgrading from their 80D in the first place, LOL, and just worked on taking better pictures first. ;-)



I am curious what limits you refer.

It sounds to me like you insulted all the 6D II owners out there.


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## dak723 (Sep 21, 2018)

Matthew Saville said:


> Canon needs to know when they're being uncompetitive. They don't need a pat on the back when they produce a camera that lacks numerous key competitive features which a competitor is putting out.



Your viewpoint is that of the reviewer (as you state that you are). So you compare specs of the different brands. If you think a person should choose a camera by who has the best or most complete specs, by all means, do so. To consider those that disagree with you to be somehow Canon apologists - or that we make excuses - is being very disrespectful and makes the assumption that you are somehow a superior judge of what makes a good camera.

I have used or owned Sony, Canon, Nikon and Olympus cameras. I choose Canon (and also have an Olympus) not because of loyalty or some flawed sense of what I want in a camera. I know exactly what I want in a camera and choose accordingly.

As for competitive....

Most spec oriented reviewers seem to believe that Sony is "king" and that Canon is a disgrace for releasing the 6D II.. Yet a very respected member here spent a good amount of time using the A7 MIII and compared it to his 6D II and said,

"The A7M3 has much better autofocus TRACKING of certain subjects like human faces. There are some cool features like face registration and face preference, and of course, Eye AF is great for human subjects in well-lit conditions. But it is TERRIBLE in comparison to the 6DII in:
- Raw autofocus speed in good conditions
- Raw autofocus speed in dimly lit conditions
- Autofocus in very poor lighting where an AF illuminator is needed -- is excellent in 6DII and unusable in Sony
- Accuracy of spot selection in PDAF mode (the Sony is good for choosing the right point in accurate focus-magnified Autofocus in Contrast Detect mode, but then it's painfully slow)
- Continuous autofocus of a small subject by manually tracking it (such as a bird)
- Autofocus hunting in non-continuous AF modes
- Autofocus at smaller apertures (where the Sony uses crappy, stopped down autofocusing)
To me, every cool feature in the A7M3 is dwarfed by relatively poor autofocus. 20 steps of DR does nothing for me if my bird is blurry.

My own experience with Sony is with the A7 and A7 II. One underexposed by 1 stop, the other by a whopping 1 1/2 stops. I have owned perhaps 10 digital cameras and while there is often some variation in exposure, none were this far off. The kit lenses, while not cheap, were the worst lenses I have owned. There is some thought that this is not really the lenses fault, but due to the short flange distance and narrow mount. The color science of Sony is poor in my opinion. The ergonomics are awful in the opinion of many.

So what may be competitive for one photographer may not be the same for another. Of the 4 brands I have tried:

Color: I think Canon #1, Olympus #2. Sony last.
Ergonomics: Canon #1, Sony last.
Exposure accuracy: All good except Sony.
Lenses ( I am not able to afford lenses that cost thousands, so having medium priced lenses is a must) Canon #1.

Luckily, I haven't needed weather sealing, but recent well publicized tests gave high marks to all brands except Sony, which basically failed.

So, personally, I am glad that Canon is NOT putting out the features that some of their competitors are putting out! Features like poor AF, Poor color, poor ergonomics, poor lenses, poor exposure and poor weather sealing.

Obviously, folks will see this as just another Canon fanboy or apologist. I couldn't care less. I don't care which company sells the most or who is rated #1. I think each person should buy the camera that suits them best. I have no interest in promoting Canon, but just try to be fair and defend Canon, and their users, against the comments I see as unfair.


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 21, 2018)

dak723 said:


> Your viewpoint is that of the reviewer (as you state that you are). So you compare specs of the different brands. If you think a person should choose a camera by who has the best or most complete specs, by all means, do so. To consider those that disagree with you to be somehow Canon apologists - or that we make excuses - is being very disrespectful and makes the assumption that you are somehow a superior judge of what makes a good camera.
> 
> I have used or owned Sony, Canon, Nikon and Olympus cameras. I choose Canon (and also have an Olympus) not because of loyalty or some flawed sense of what I want in a camera. I know exactly what I want in a camera and choose accordingly.
> 
> ...




Alot of thing you mentioned is debatable. You should check out this video 




Canon isn't #1 when it come to color science and Sony is closing the gap with their latest camera. If you edit RAW, there are profile to mimic Canon colors.

Regarding ergonomic, Canon is better than Sony but I'm sure for $2000 ($1800 with edu discount), people can use L plate/grip & custom menu to get over that. Sony have better value proposition with better sensor, IBIS, eyeAF, video features, dual card slot. I doubt Canon L lens are enough to keep people staying with Canon especially now Sigma & Tamron make pretty good lens. (Sigma 135 vs Canon 135, Sigma 14-24 vs 16-35, etc). Some lens from Sigma works fine with adapter too so it isn't incredibly hard to switch.

There are alot of photographers who are willing to overlook the poor ergonomic, menu, color to get an affordable camera body with all those specs. That's why Sony have the best selling FF camera in N America.

Sony next generation may have even better specs such as that 5.6 million dot EVF 240fps (A7SIII), improve color science and maybe a redesign bigger body (rumored). I doubt they stay idle with sensor tech either, and improvement on ergonomic issue especially now that Nikon/Canon both going toward the bigger size FF mirrorless camera.

Yes Canon is lagging behind the competition when it comes to specs that matters to most consumers and that's why Sony is #1 when it come to FF camera. I also believe there a fewer photographers who prioritize ergonomic, menu, color science etc over features and price. Nowadays, most photographers just looking to get the biggest bang for your buck.

I'd love to stay with Canon since I value everything you listed, but I found the tech features to be underwhelming. Just let the reviewers/YouTubers complain, if anything, we get better specs camera at a better price.


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## Matthew Saville (Sep 21, 2018)

dak723 said:


> But it is TERRIBLE in comparison to the 6DII in:
> - Raw autofocus speed in good conditions
> - Raw autofocus speed in dimly lit conditions
> - Autofocus in very poor lighting where an AF illuminator is needed -- is excellent in 6DII and unusable in Sony
> ...


Since the 6D2 has two completely different AF systems, due to the fact that it's got an optical viewfinder and a mirror box, I'm not sure which AF performance you're referring to in any of these instances. However, the bottom line as I said is that the 6D2 should have had the 5D4's off-sensor PDAF system.

Either way, trust me I'd love for "the word to get out" that Sonys just don't work as smoothly as Canons, or Nikons, or whatever. I don't like it when people judge a camera based on the spec sheet alone. As a reviewer, I always recommend that people actually hold multiple cameras and get to know them before making any decisions, and I also encourage potential buyers to avoid taking advice from people who have only ever held the one camera they own and know.

Unfortunately, like I said, I'm still watching the Sony A7iii be people's final decision time after time, ...after time. If I got the feeling that it was even remotely close to an even split, I wouldn't be this critical of "the #1 brand that obviously knows what they're doing because sales are still strong..."


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## Matthew Saville (Sep 21, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> There are alot of photographers who are willing to overlook the poor ergonomic, menu, color to get an affordable camera body with all those specs. That's why Sony have the best selling FF camera in N America.



Part of the issue is that many Sony shooters are doing more video shooting than than stills, and they couldn't care less about ergonomics because the camera is spending 90-99% of the time enclosed in a "rig", or on a gimbal. They aren't spending hours a day with the camera to their eye and both hands perfectly wrapped around the camera+lens.

As a stills shooter, I feel every minor oddity in the contours of a camera. Whenever I get a new camera that digs into one of my fingers in a new way, it hurts after 12+ hours with the camera. So I absolutely prefer Canon/Nikon ergonomics.

But again, ergonomics is almost always an afterthought with buyers these days, who often make their decisions based on internet reviews and spec sheets. They learn to live with whatever ergonomics they wind up with, they trudge through whichever menu system they are forced to. Only a select few can afford to just say, "nah, this is too frustrating, I'm going to go through the painstaking trouble of familiarizing myself with a whole different system, just for a _potentially_ more convenient shooting experience..."

It's a shame that so many brick-and-mortar camera shops are gone; just 10-20 years ago it was really easy to make a camera system decision based on actually holding cameras in your hands, and having an expert there to show you every little function. These days, you're lucky if the big-box electronics store in your nearest city has even one or two of the cameras you're interested in buying, let alone three or more of them. And forget about the expert on-hand to guide you through every function.

That's why I have an encouraging attitude in (most of) the reviews I do. While I don't pull any punches if I think a product should have included a feature at a certain price point, I always recommend holding the gear for yourself, if you can, before making any decisions.


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## Matthew Saville (Sep 21, 2018)

takesome1 said:


> I am curious what limits you refer.
> 
> It sounds to me like you insulted all the 6D II owners out there.


When a camera is that underwhelming compared to both its predecessor and its competition, you have to wonder...

Again, it's a great camera if you don't push the envelope very much. Just like all cameras are. But I'm not here to debate the acceptability of mediocre cameras that sell well. I'm here to encourage Canon to do better, in spite of the fact that they're still #1. Because "It's OK, we're still #1" is exactly what Kodak told themselves many times too...


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## canonmike (Sep 21, 2018)

siegsAR said:


> This is how i see it on the EF-M side of things too, as someone who invested on it.
> But it's success will lie on its perceived segmentation, this will be like EF-S was to EF BUT a lot less
> flexible in terms of lens compatibility. Low end is a pretty strong word for a platform that will be
> a favorite for consumers and a handy backup for prosumers.


I think we need to remember here that part of the appeal of the M series cameras, especially the latest M50, is how compact they are, making them very suitable for travel, hiking, run and gun vlogging, etc., not to mention how reasonably priced they are for what they do. While many reviews of the M line point out a few shortcomings, most sum up the user experience in a very positive light. With the latest release of the new fast EF-M lens, it sure appears Canon plans on continued support for the line.


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## takesome1 (Sep 21, 2018)

Matthew Saville said:


> . *I'm here to encourage Canon to do better, in spite of the fact that they're still #1*



Do you really think there is someone in a Canon office in Japan that is waiting on your encouragement?

I was at a NBA game last season, the guy next to me was screaming and cussing the ref because he thought he had made a bad call.
The next call went in our teams favor, the guy looked over at me and seriously said "See, if you cuss the ref's they will start calling it your way."
The guy seriously thought the ref had listened to him and he had made the change.
This did give my group something to laugh about later.


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## jolyonralph (Sep 21, 2018)

Matthew Saville said:


> I guess Sega was the Myspace of the game console world.
> 
> BTW, don't forget one of the most popular systems of all, the *SONY* Playstation. ;-)  Proof that they know how to both shake up a market AND survive long-term, indeed...



Actually, that's what I was (poorly) referring to. Sony came from nowhere into the games industry and dominated it. Then half a decade later Microsoft said "hey, we can do that too"


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## SaP34US (Oct 9, 2018)

scrup said:


> If they bring a camera at a lower price point to the R, the internet will freeze over. Canon cannot do such a stupid move. They cannot possibly gimp the R any further. A lot of people are waiting for the R to drop to 1800 (1400 refurb) which is what it's worth. Lower model will keep the R price high.


What if it didn't come until 2nd interations of the R cameras and they actually are as good as the Sony? Maybe in 2020 or 2021.


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