# The first RF mount super telephoto lens will be a DO lens [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 5, 2018)

> A few weeks ago we mentioned that new DO lenses were on the way, but that they would be for the RF mount and not the EF mount.
> We’re now receiving more information from other places suggesting that this is going to be the case. We’re told that the “first true super telephoto lens for the RF mount will be a diffractive optics lens”.
> The same source also mentioned that an RF 300mm f/2.8L IS was currently in development, but not anywhere close to becoming a consumer product.
> While we weren’t told what the focal length for the first RF mount DO lens would be, we’d wager on a 500mm lens is a good place to start for the EOS R system.
> ...



Continue reading...


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## Ladislav (Nov 5, 2018)

Big white + DO + RF mount => it will cost a fortune ...


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## criscokkat (Nov 5, 2018)

I'll bet when all is said and done the reason a 20mm flange focal distance was chosen over a 18mm distance like the M series comes down to DO lens optics. The last lens in the existing DO lenses is a lens that straightens the light path back out to focus on the sensor 44 mm away. This lens may not be needed, alleviating the complexity in preceding lenses to account for it and/or potential image degradation issues for that straightening lens goes away. Keeping the wide throat helps a bunch too in these DO lenses. This might be something Sony can't easily duplicate either. 

I'd also wager that the patents on the increased angles on light capture with the microlenses mounted on the sensor is to accommodate more severe light angles like a DO lens.

In short, this sort of lens cannot be made for EF mount. I suspect we will see more of these.


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## BeenThere (Nov 5, 2018)

Ladislav said:


> Big white + DO + RF mount => it will cost a fortune ...


I’m not so sure that the RF mount drives costs higher, but they will be expensive just like previous DO Teles.


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## BeenThere (Nov 5, 2018)

Just the fact that thes lenses are coming at some point, tells us that a sports oriented R mount body is also coming in the same time frame.


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## nchoh (Nov 5, 2018)

Ladislav said:


> Big white + DO + RF mount => it will cost a fortune ...



I don't know exactly what the Canon manufacturing plant looks like, but generally speaking, there are 2 lines, one for the big expensive glass and one for the cheaper, high volume consumer glass. I don't think that you will have to wait too long before Canon starts ramping up on the affordable R lenses. But I also do believe that Canon may also be managing it's inventory pipeline, so they may be waiting for some of the EF lens stock to reduce before releasing cheaper RF lenses.


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## docsmith (Nov 5, 2018)

There are so many lenses to populate in the RF lineup, unless there is really a distinct advantage to these lenses for the RF mount, I would expect the superteles to be years away.

First, I would expect:

2 or more UWA lenses (f/1.4 , f/2.8, and f/4)
f/2.8 and f/4 general purpose zooms
70-200 f/2.8 and f/4 variants (I would love to see an f/2 version)
70-300
Some core primes, say 14 (least likely, but I'd love to see a great astro lens), 24, 35, 85, and 135 mm.

So, that is 10-13 lenses. Let's just say I expect 15 other RF announcements before a RF supertele. Assuming ~5 announcements a year, that would be 3-4 years from now.

Of course, Canon may feel that supertele's drive the market and may get a few out there first. But the lightweight EF version III's make more sense...for now.


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## YuengLinger (Nov 5, 2018)

What is currently the fastest DO lens?


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## Tom W (Nov 5, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Frankly, I can see the easy conversion of any of today's super-teles to the R mount, simply by extending the camera-end of the mount to fit the R camera. None have a problem with long backfocus - they all exhibit a long distance between the rearmost lens element and the sensor plane.

The R mount holds no advantage for super-telephoto lenses, or at least nothing significant compared to long-normal and wide angle lenses, where the reduced backfocus distance represents a huge design benefit.


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## Tom W (Nov 5, 2018)

I'm thinking that there will be an R-mount version of some of the super-telephoto lenses, along with an R-mount 1.4X and 2X teleconverter in the pipeline in the next couple of years.


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## Ladislav (Nov 5, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> I’m not so sure that the RF mount drives costs higher, but they will be expensive just like previous DO Teles.



If it offers something not available (or even better - not possible) on EF mount, it for sure does.


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## BeenThere (Nov 5, 2018)

I would guess Canon will try to have these ready for 2020 Olympic Games in Japan.


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## highdesertmesa (Nov 5, 2018)

Go Canon


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## fentiger (Nov 5, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> I would guess Canon will try to have these ready for 2020 Olympic Games in Japan.


In that case i would expect Canon to have a 1D type of mirrorless as well to make best use of new lenses


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## bhf3737 (Nov 5, 2018)

Ladislav said:


> Big white + DO + RF mount => it will cost a fortune ...


We can also conclude that:
Big white + DO + RF mount => Professional R cameras are coming!!
From what I have seen, using the current EOS-R, a high megapixel and a high speed R should be very capable cameras.


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## Ozarker (Nov 5, 2018)

nchoh said:


> I don't know exactly what the Canon manufacturing plant looks like, but generally speaking, there are 2 lines..



Where do you get this general idea? Only two lens manufacturing lines? I think not. I don't know what kind of factories you've been inside. Back in the 1980's when I worked for P&G, we had 7 lines just to make Pringles.
When I worked for SCA Tissue we had more than 2 dozen manufacturing lines under one roof to make napkins, paper towels, and toilet paper.
Canon cranks out an average of 4.5 million lenses a year (140,000,000+ lenses since 1987). That isn't accomplished with only two production lines.


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## nchoh (Nov 5, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Where do you get this general idea? Only two lens manufacturing lines? I think not. I don't know what kind of factories you've been inside. Back in the 1980's when I worked for P&G, we had 7 lines just to make Pringles.
> When I worked for SCA Tissue we had more than 2 dozen manufacturing lines under one roof to make napkins, paper towels, and toilet paper.
> Canon cranks out an average of 4.5 million lenses a year (140,000,000+ lenses since 1987). That isn't accomplished with only two production lines.



"generally speaking"
"I don't know exactly what the Canon manufacturing plant looks like ..."


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## dickgrafixstop (Nov 5, 2018)

I wouldn't look for any "major" announcements for "pro' bodies and long telephoto lenses before the lead time to the 2020 Olympics in Japan. Perhaps the new Panasonic full frame availability may jigger the time frame a bit - but only if Panasonic comes with formidable lenses. After all, it's less than 18 months until the Olympics and that's a pretty ambitious release schedule.


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## beegee (Nov 5, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> What is currently the fastest DO lens?


It's the 400 f/4 DO II for Canon. Nikon on the other hand had the 300mm f/4 and just came out with their 500mmf/5.6 DO equivalent. The latter costs less than half the Canon 400 mm DO f/4 II. Let's hope Canon takes the pricing to heart for these DO lenses. The Pro's may not care about these, but the hobbyists will and hence the mid-price point for these in the sub-$5K range might be a sweet spot for Canon to consider. Have been patiently waiting for the 600 mm DO for a bit. Now with the action oriented MILC and this DO, I am hoping my wait will be over 
Resurrect the APS-H please.


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## djack41 (Nov 5, 2018)

Canon needs to act quickly. Sony is now #1 in total sales of full frame cameras.........not just mirrorless but all full-frame. Canon is bleeding market share. Hard to believe that Sony has come so far, so fast.


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## criscokkat (Nov 5, 2018)

djack41 said:


> Canon needs to act quickly. Sony is now #1 in total sales of full frame cameras.........not just mirrorless but all full-frame. Canon is bleeding market share. Hard to believe that Sony has come so far, so fast.


Keep in mind whomever releases a Full Frame camera in any given period of time usually becomes "#1 total sales of full frame cameras". Sony took this title over the late spring/early summer by having the most in January - July. Canon held it the 2nd half of last year after passing Nikon.

Most of the buyers out there upgrade bodies around once every 2-3 years at best. A lot of people have been holding off on doing this as they wait for mirrorless which they knew was coming. Some of those people did bleed over to Sony. It'll be interesting to see what the charts look like in January. I would guess Canon will be back on top but wouldn't be surprised if Nikon is not in 3rd again. I suspect that in another 5 years Nikon will be looking much more like Minolta did just before Sony took over, especially with Panasonic making a strong push into Full Frame. I wouldn't be surprised if they are bought out as their engineers, talent and patents are very valuable.


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## Architect1776 (Nov 5, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Excellent, again showing the power and sophistication of Canon. The R system will be incredible very quickly with pro lenses that can't be touched. That lens control ring is looking better and better that no one else has. Way to go Canon, love it. They will perhaps be ready for the Olympics for all we know with RF pro lenses for a pro R camera?


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## Ozarker (Nov 6, 2018)

djack41 said:


> Canon needs to act quickly. Sony is now #1 in total sales of full frame cameras.........not just mirrorless but all full-frame. Canon is bleeding market share. Hard to believe that Sony has come so far, so fast.



Only #1 in the USA and right after releasing a new body... but it was Sony making that claim. Canon is not bleeding market share. If Canon is bleeding market share to Sony, Id like to see that data. Just saying something is happening doesn't mean it is happening.


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## Bob Howland (Nov 6, 2018)

Tom W said:


> Frankly, I can see the easy conversion of any of today's super-teles to the R mount, simply by extending the camera-end of the mount to fit the R camera. None have a problem with long backfocus - they all exhibit a long distance between the rearmost lens element and the sensor plane.
> 
> The R mount holds no advantage for super-telephoto lenses, or at least nothing significant compared to long-normal and wide angle lenses, where the reduced backfocus distance represents a huge design benefit.



After looking at the position of the rearmost elements in all my long EF elements, I'd be surprised if there is a major benefit to the RF mount for any lens longer than 85mm. However, if the RF sports camera can do >20 FPS because of the absence of a moving mirror, that would be a compelling advantage of sports photographers.


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## padam (Nov 6, 2018)

beegee said:


> Resurrect the APS-H please.


There is really no point at all when the digital cropping is still available as an option (although writing full-sized raw files is not really a bottleneck anymore).
The 1DX II is perfectly capable of 16fps without the mirror flip, so the mechanical shutter is already there. So if they make a camera with a similar battery, they just need to heavily revise the AF system and sensor readout to keep up with that.


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## brad-man (Nov 6, 2018)

Tom W said:


> *Frankly, I can see the easy conversion of any of today's super-teles to the R mount, simply by extending the camera-end of the mount to fit the R camera.* None have a problem with long backfocus - they all exhibit a long distance between the rearmost lens element and the sensor plane.
> 
> The R mount holds no advantage for super-telephoto lenses, or at least nothing significant compared to long-normal and wide angle lenses, where the reduced backfocus distance represents a huge design benefit.


You mean like this:



https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1433717-REG/canon_mount_adapter_ef_rf.html


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 6, 2018)

Bob Howland said:


> After looking at the position of the rearmost elements in all my long EF elements, I'd be surprised if there is a major benefit to the RF mount for any lens longer than 85mm. However, if the RF sports camera can do >20 FPS because of the absence of a moving mirror, that would be a compelling advantage of sports photographers.


Its not about position of the rear element, RF lenses have a larger rear element which means that light rays to the edges of the frame are bent less. Thus, it is possible to make RF lenses faster with less distortions and CA's at the edges. They are slightly shorter in the wide lenses, if this carries thru to long DO lenses, then faster, shorter, and better IQ.Since Canon's super teles are close to perfect (for the cost), any measurable improvement would be significant.


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## mirage (Nov 6, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Only #1 in the USA and right after releasing a new body... but it was Sony making that claim. Canon is not bleeding market share. If Canon is bleeding market share to Sony, Id like to see that data. Just saying something is happening doesn't mean it is happening.



typical CFB posting. 

by their own admission in their recent Q3 financial statement, Canon has been bleeding market share in 2017 and 2018. data is only presented as global number: 48% ILC market share in 2016 to about 46% (2017).

Thom Hogan reckons it to be around 45% currently (2018) and i agree with that estimate (although it is more like minus 2 or 3% not minus 5% for 2018)
https://dslrbodies.com/newsviews/ni...8-nikon-news/canon-joins-canarys-in-coal.html



> Overall, Canon's projections now show ILC's dropping 8% for the year and their market share dropping a couple of points (by my calculations, to 45%, which means that Canon is losing about 5% market share this year to the competition).



while publicly available data is not broken down further for crop/FF, DSLRs/mirrorfree or by other brands there is no doubt, that Canon market share bleeding was and is almost exclusively towards Sony/mirrorfree FF. Canon generally is not losing many sales to Nikon, Fuji (at least not any longer thanks to EOS M50 and recent/decent EF-M lenses) nor to Oly/mFT, Pentax or Leica. 

transition to mirrorfree is happening as fast as i predicted all along. Canons crop slappers look stale compared to EOS M50. M5/M6 need update urgently. 7D2 is very long in the tooth and is not competitive with best in class (nikon D500, Fuji Xt3). 6D2 was disappointing, 5D4 was ok, but (too) expensive. EOS R is meh compared to competitors and more expensive. RF glass is mire expensive than EF (24-105) without being better or smaller. pink unicorns (50/1.2, 28-70/2) are outlandish and will not sell in large numbers.

so i expect Canon's market share to drop further for full year 2018. EOS R will not (yet) "save the day" for Canon.

clear, published roadmaps for both EOS R system and EOS M, showing upcoming/planned cameras and lenses would be in Canon's best interest to mitigate the bleeding until those new products are launched.


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## GMCPhotographics (Nov 6, 2018)

I think the biggest limitation of a Big white lens for the RF mount isn't the lens but the format adoption. I can't see many pros jumping ship from the EF mount to RF mount while the only camera body is the Eos R...a cute amateur camera. I can't see many pros swapping their 1Dx / 5D series cameras and hugely expensive EF teles at the moment. 5 mins with the Eos R body was enough to put me off. Once Canon have released a camera worthy of consideration....then maybe. Otherwise this is vapour ware....and marketing hype. I believe there is a future for the RF mount but it needs clear and serious competitive photographic advantages over the EF lenses...and not some cheap marketing tricks and market entrapment. Also the camera has to be fun and enjoyable to use. The current EOS R is not a fun camera to use, I felt like it was taking the photo, not me.


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## Meatcurry (Nov 6, 2018)

djack41 said:


> Canon needs to act quickly. Sony is now #1 in total sales of full frame cameras.........not just mirrorless but all full-frame. Canon is bleeding market share. Hard to believe that Sony has come so far, so fast.



Not really true, EOS R is the best selling FULL FRAME camera in Japan right now!
https://www.bcnretail.com/research/ranking/monthly/list/contents_type=101


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## padam (Nov 6, 2018)

GMCPhotographics said:


> I think the biggest limitation of a Big white lens for the RF mount isn't the lens but the format adoption. I can't see many pros jumping ship from the EF mount to RF mount while the only camera body is the Eos R...a cute amateur camera. I can't see many pros swapping their 1Dx / 5D series cameras and hugely expensive EF teles at the moment. 5 mins with the Eos R body was enough to put me off. Once Canon have released a camera worthy of consideration....then maybe. Otherwise this is vapour ware....and marketing hype. I believe there is a future for the RF mount but it needs clear and serious competitive photographic advantages over the EF lenses...and not some cheap marketing tricks and market entrapment. Also the camera has to be fun and enjoyable to use. The current EOS R is not a fun camera to use, I felt like it was taking the photo, not me.


We are talking about way into the future here. By the time they do actually come out with a super telephoto (there are other lenses which will come sooner) there will be a body for it and they don't care if they sell EF or RF lenses, the advantage of the faster communication interface with the AF and faster moving aperture with the newer optical design will prevail in the distant future.
Even they said that with the EOS R they are presenting a new platform, not a new flagship mirrorless camera.
At the moment it looks like their FF lineup will come out like this in order or pricing:
6D Mark II - cheaper EOS R model (second model) - EOS R - 5D IV - Pro EOS R model (third model) - 1DX II



Meatcurry said:


> Not really true, EOS R is the best selling FULL FRAME camera in Japan right now!
> https://www.bcnretail.com/research/ranking/monthly/list/contents_type=101


Looking at the domestic pricing of the EOS R body (currently at 214,000 yen), it seems much more aggressive (almost the same as the A7III in Japan at 211,500 yen) so that may suggest some price drops in the coming months in international markets as well, with other Canon models the price difference is not as significant as this one, so they may just want to cash in a little on early buyers.


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## MartinF. (Nov 6, 2018)

djack41 said:


> Canon needs to act quickly. Sony is now #1 in total sales of full frame cameras.........not just mirrorless but all full-frame. Canon is bleeding market share. Hard to believe that Sony has come so far, so fast.



Sony has a current lead in new cameras, and their approach to development and product cycles is more "agile" and fast than Canon. However, Canon is very big company - doing many other things than cameras and optics - and with a lot of momentum. It maybe take some time to pick up speed - but when they do....


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## mirage (Nov 6, 2018)

padam said:


> ...
> At the moment it looks like their FF lineup will come out like this in order or pricing:
> 6D Mark II - cheaper EOS R model (second model) - EOS R - 5D IV - Pro EOS R model (third model) - 1DX II



I expect similar, but actually 4 EOS R models:

1. 2018: *EOS R* = "mirrorfree 6D III" equivalent
2. early 2019: "*EOS 100R*" = mirrorfree FF entry level; compares to EOS R like EOS M50 does to M5. Same sensor, same AF as EOS R, slightly smaller/simpler body, e.g. no top display, no multifunction slider; other than that not much nerfing possible or it will not be not marketable in 2019 
3. summer/fall 2019 *"EOS 5R"* - hi-rez model, 60MP sensor, 5DS/R successor 
4. early 2020, in time for Tokyo Olympics: *"EOS 1R"* = hi-speed/flagship = "mirrorfree 1D-X III"


*) product monikers may well be different. It is just what I would call them if it was up to me.


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## padam (Nov 6, 2018)

mirage said:


> I expect similar, but actually 4 EOS R models:
> 
> 1. 2018: *EOS R* = "mirrorfree 6D III" equivalent
> 2. early 2019: "*EOS 100R*" = mirrorfree FF entry level; compares to EOS R like EOS M50 does to M5. Same sensor, same AF as EOS R, slightly smaller/simpler body, e.g. no top display, no multifunction slider; other than that not much nerfing possible or it will not be not marketable in 2019
> ...


The cheaper model will be 26MP just like the 6D II according to the leaks with the model numbers, seems logical, hopefully they can a cropped 4k mode to the mix to not abandon it completely for video.
I agree on four models, but I think that in terms of the order they come out, the demand is much stronger for the "Pro" photo/video model than the more specialised high-resolution one, and they already have the 20.2 MP sensor ready for it and it will be placed a bit under the 1DX II in the lineup.
I wonder if there will be model like this, will it get 4k60p 1.5x UHD crop with external 10-bit 4:2:2 output, C-Log with less rolling shutter.
As a camera like this would certainly put more pressure on not buying their cinema cameras with the option for that ND filter adapter. The 1DX II has no C-Log, no 4k output (let alone 10-bit 4:2:2) and no internal ND filter. They are slowly starting to add more video features for their newer cameras, so we'll see.

The fact that they can do a camera like that with "leftover parts" just shows how they are not really lagging behind the competitors at all, they just need to decide on what they want to add from the palette that they already have and how to price it.


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## Ozarker (Nov 6, 2018)

mirage said:


> typical CFB posting.
> 
> by their own admission in their recent Q3 financial statement, Canon has been bleeding market share in 2017 and 2018. data is only presented as global number: 48% ILC market share in 2016 to about 46% (2017).
> 
> ...


Canon is not bleeding market share to Sony or Nikon. Not happening.

Highlighted in red above, show me the worldwide data (he says there is none, just conjecture) that proves Canon is "bleeding" because of Sony. Tom Hogan "reckons" is cute, but isn't data.


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## mirage (Nov 6, 2018)

Canon has been bleeding. Here is the chart from Canon themselves:







Sorry, i did mix up some numbers/years. Canon shows ILC market share at 48% for 2017, down from about 50% in 2016. 2018 is open, but i think Canon's hope for an upward trend as per the chart is nothing but wishful thinking. I'd rather expect Sony [ A7 III ! ] gaining another few % points on Canon this year. 

Of course the lost market share has been going - almost exclusively - to Sony (mirrorfree FF). Only really delusional Canon Fan Boyz would doubt this.
Nikon had nothing better than Canon [DSLRs, no APS-C mirrorless]. Sony crop mirrorless, Fuji and mFT are not as attractive any longer since Canon has upgraded their EOS M / EF-M lineup [M5, M6, M50, EF-M 18-150, 28, 32], except maybe for very video-centric users [ -> Panasonic GH5, Fuji XT3] . 

Launch of EOS R system may have slowed down the bleeding a bit recently, since Canon customers who have not switched to/or added Sony Alpha gear yet may wait just a bit longer to see, what Canon comes up with next (R bodies, RF lenses), whether it is good enough/suitable for them or not and/or for street prices to come down.

Mid-/long term Canon certainly has excellent prospects to grow their market share again and reach even more than 50% once transition from DSLRs/EF/EF-S to R and M is complete. Lack of crop mirrorfree lineup is definitely hurting Nikon sales. And Sony's long neglect of their APS-C lineup [A5###/A6###, E-lenses] is also hurting them, but maybe they are soon going to something about that [A7000 ?] ...


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## gmon750 (Nov 6, 2018)

Ladislav said:


> Big white + DO + RF mount => it will cost a fortune ...



As if the EF versions are cheap already?


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## mirage (Nov 6, 2018)

gmon750 said:


> As if the EF versions are cheap already?



RF vs. EF = 2 kidneys vs. 1


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## lexptr (Nov 6, 2018)

Mmmm... 500mm f/5.6 DO would be a very interesting thing. Thanks Nikon for starting the trend. Well, I hope it will be a trend


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## wyotex43n (Nov 9, 2018)

lexptr said:


> Mmmm... 500mm f/5.6 DO would be a very interesting thing. Thanks Nikon for starting the trend. Well, I hope it will be a trend


I second the thanks to Nikon. Personally I would want it to be a 600 F5.6 DO. Or better yet F4. but definitely a 600mm.


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## Hector1970 (Nov 10, 2018)

For the EOS-R to thrive Canon need to bring out a 1 DR and big whites. I'd agree a 500mm F4 or a 400mm F2.8 would need to come out for it.
I'd assume it would be late 2019 / early 2020 in time of the Tokyo Olympics which might be a real battleground between Japanese Manufacturers.
Professionals might be slow to adopt a 1 DR so it would need to be good and robust. Battery life needs to be good
You'll see plenty of 1DX II's and EF lens on sidelines for years to come.


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