# Selling off my old strobes, What to get next?



## RLPhoto (Jan 17, 2013)

I'll be auctioning off my hard-working novatron strobes until they sell. I love the power but the flash duration is too slow for me to do any splash stuff.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=181064006334#ht_710wt_1244

I've got about a 5 Grand budget and I've been looking into 4x PCB Einsteins but I ask, Is there any other options I should know about?


----------



## wickidwombat (Jan 18, 2013)

5K? I'd be having a good look at the elinchrom quadras
but i'm biased im a big fan of elinchrom gear


----------



## RLPhoto (Jan 18, 2013)

I took a look at the quadras and I love the modifiers elichrome has. The overall package won't deliver what I need it to do for me. 

Durations are too slow even with the port a+b method. 

It would be out of my budget for 4 heads, two packs and the modifiers I wanted. 

400 w/s is not enough. 

It would be super heavy compared to Einsteins + VML


----------



## klickflip (Jan 18, 2013)

I've been testing & shooting splashes and action and it can be tricky one, well to freeze perfectly. 
The Einstiens are a good choice I think although never tried them as in UK. But they work similar to speed lights and Bron with lower power being a shorter flash duration, I saw that you can get about 1/10000 sec at minimum power, opposite of normal strobes being shortest duration at full power. 

Also what makes a huge difference is the shutter speed, sometimes contrary to belief being its completely about flash duration. 
A Hassy at 500th or 800th sec with a flash duration of 1/1000 T0.1 or 1/2000+ T0.5 will freeze things decently but not splashes perfectly
Where as a canon at 160th or 200th with show much more flash burn and softness. 

A Canon + speedlights on HSS will though and if its only small set ups this works fine. 

One thing i've found tho is sometimes perfectly freezed action of splashes doesn't work quite as well in final images and retouches as you may think

Personally I'd go with Elinchrom RXs (600ws) for you main lights - as they have great modifiers plus the Skyport system that you can control everything off laptop or ipad, and an extra speedlight or two for doing splashes. 
Or Bowens Gemini Pro 500s as they are workhorses too. 

Cant say much from experience about the Einsteins but they may be great and cover all bases, only heard the modifiers fixing can be funny and that reliability may not be quite as good as Elinchroms or Bowens.


----------



## agierke (Jan 18, 2013)

i have 2 Einsteins and i find them to be very reliable and built much more solidly than the older AB units. i have not yet tested the high speed flash duration of the units but it was a feature that i liked having if the need ever arises.

some other nice things about the Einsteins:

1/10 stop variation in power over a 9 stop range
ability to control power of multiple strobes via camera with the Cyber Commander unit
value vs quality (its just a good product for the cost compared to other brands)

i have also not had any issues using any type of modifier with them. i got the units when they were first released and i was aware that they were going to correct how modifiers were attached to the unit. as i understood it, occasionally a large/heavy modifier could "jump" off the unit so PCB planned to extend the length of the clasps that engaged the speedring that the modifier was attached to.

i have never had an issue with this and i have used up to a 36x48 softbox on these units. i do hope to get a 54x72 softbox in the future so at that point i might send the units back in to get them updated to handle the extra load.

bottom line is that i find the Einsteins to be well made, reliable, and very very versatile. but i would try to research how they perform at faster flash durations and if they are capable of what you need. the only other units i saw (online) photographers using to do such work were ProFotos...and they are beastly expensive. 

edit:

just found this review/test by Rob Galbraith (whom i find to be very thorough and informative) for the Einstein 640's. scroll down tne article a bit and you will see interactive tests for the high speed flash duration compared to the elinchroms.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-10053-10715


----------



## RLPhoto (Jan 18, 2013)

agierke said:


> i have 2 Einsteins and i find them to be very reliable and built much more solidly than the older AB units. i have not yet tested the high speed flash duration of the units but it was a feature that i liked having if the need ever arises.
> 
> some other nice things about the Einsteins:
> 
> ...



Thats some piece of mind. One thing about my ancient novatron gear is its tough as nails. Fallen several feet, dropped kicked, battered but continues chugging.

I saw some broncolor/profoto stuff and its amazing but wayy out of my budget! Then I read stuff on Einstein and knew it was perfect.

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2012/10/freezing-water-on-cheap-einstein.html


----------



## bycostello (Jan 19, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> 5K? I'd be having a good look at the elinchrom quadras
> but i'm biased im a big fan of elinchrom gear
> [/quot
> 
> +1


----------



## wickidwombat (Jan 21, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> I took a look at the quadras and I love the modifiers elichrome has. The overall package won't deliver what I need it to do for me.
> 
> Durations are too slow even with the port a+b method.
> 
> ...



you can get this set and a couple of 600s
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/906651-REG/Elinchrom_EL_20852KIT_D_LITE_RX_4_400w.html

then get some phottix odins they will work right up to 1/8000s with the odins which will well and truely overpower the sun and more


----------



## RLPhoto (Jan 21, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > I took a look at the quadras and I love the modifiers elichrome has. The overall package won't deliver what I need it to do for me.
> ...



How can a strobe HSS? I've never heard that before. 

Is it the Odin's or the Elichromes that allow for the HSS? If its the odins, I should be able to do the same with einstein.


----------



## agierke (Jan 21, 2013)

the Einsteins are not capable of exceeding the sync of whatever canon camera you have. tested it and they failed. but that was using AB triggers.

i have never heard of a radio trigger being able exceed flash sync of a camera. i have only used canon speedlights to do that. and i highly doubt that you could shoot at 1/8000th of a sec with strobe and not be using a leaf shutter. even at 1/500th on a Hassi that was pushing it. everything i have ever experienced says that is not possible with a curtain type shutter.

i also don't believe 400w/s heads are enough power to beat direct sunlight. the einsteins are 640w/s and they struggle to beat direct sunlight with direct unmodified strobe.

i'm not buying it....but please, i would be thrilled to be proven wrong.


----------



## wickidwombat (Jan 21, 2013)

its the odins controlling the flash that allows the fast shutter, but its not HSS ie you are not reducing flash power (i dont think so anyway) normally the camera wont allow you to go above sync speed but on the odins i just enable HSS on the odin controller and I get full shutter speed right out to 1/8000. so i can mix the elinchroms and speedlights together with pretty much no limits.

with the elinchroms i use the 3.5mm jack from the odin reciever to the flash head to connect it

since the stratto 2 recievers are cheaper and compatable with the odin controller I've been thinking about getting some just for the elinchroms but i want to try them out first before i go buying 4. but for now i just use the odin recievers I also discovered that a simple 3.5mm audio splitter cable will let you fire 2 studio heads from the 1 reciever.

Unfortunately since the flashes are all manual you dont get all the cool odin features like being able to control power from the unit or group ratios like you do with ETTL speedlights


----------



## wickidwombat (Jan 21, 2013)

agierke said:


> the Einsteins are not capable of exceeding the sync of whatever canon camera you have. tested it and they failed. but that was using AB triggers.
> 
> i have never heard of a radio trigger being able exceed flash sync of a camera. i have only used canon speedlights to do that. and i highly doubt that you could shoot at 1/8000th of a sec with strobe and not be using a leaf shutter. even at 1/500th on a Hassi that was pushing it. everything i have ever experienced says that is not possible with a curtain type shutter.
> 
> ...


Totally understandable doubt there, the other people i've shown this to didn't beleive it until i gave them a demo
i'll take some test shots and post them here to prove it works
I have only tried this with elinchrom flash heads I have no idea if it works with other brands


----------



## agierke (Jan 21, 2013)

did some quick internet digging and found this:



> This is your answer. With focal plane shutters and dedicated speedlights using HSS/FP sync up to 1/8000 sync isnt an issue. But if you are talking about studio lights (monolights and packs) things get really tricky.﻿ With leaf shutter cameras you can shoot past 1/1000 sec sync with studio strobes. ﻿﻿What you need is a slow or delayed sync similiar to what was used with old school 1970s m-series camera syncs and class m-series flash bulbs for a slow sync delay (because it took about 20-25 milliseconds to reach illumination with these old flash bulbs). Today we use Pocketwizards with Hypersync for an advanced time sync.
> 
> You need these things to sync above 1/250 sec with focal plane shutter cameras and studio strobes:
> 
> ...



comes from this site....scroll down:

http://photo.net/photography-lighting-equipment-techniques-forum/00ZySf

also found this mod for Nikon users:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/d70/discuss/72057594105643058/


interesting stuff. i will have to look into it further (when i have the time) because i have long wished for the capabilities of a leaf shutter in terms of flash sync for my digital shots.


----------



## agierke (Jan 21, 2013)

well, the einsteins appear to have a flash duration anywhere from 1/588th to 1/13500th of a sec so i guess it would depend on the mode and the power settings as well as getting a radio transmitter that could control the timing of the flash pop.

hmm....im interested.

*edit*

sry for the spam posting but i am very intrigued by this notion.

found this link as well directly pertaining to canon cameras and speedlights. still unsure of how to incorporate different brand monoheads though.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-9991-10030


----------



## wickidwombat (Jan 22, 2013)

this guy also talks about the HSS on studio stobes he calls it hypersync
http://flashhavoc.com/phottix-odin-ttl-trigger-review/

"Hypersync

HSS – High Speed Sync up to 1/8000th for Studio Lights. This is not an official feature or mentioned in the manual, but “tail method Hypersync”, that’s HSS for manual speedlights or monolights, is available from the Odin transmitter. The timing is not adjustable though so the results will vary depending on the lights and camera used. There have been some promising results reported though already.

To enable hypersync simply connect your speedlight or monolight to the Odin receiver via the PC sync cord supplied (you can place a fully manual speedlight straight on the Odin Rx hotshoe as well). Then set the Odin TCU to HSS, and set the camera to any shutter speed over 1/250th. This generally requires full power with speedlights to achieve a fully lit frame, and often full power with monolights too. Power loss is similar to FP HSS but monolights have more power available anyway."

he is saying the monolight power is reduced too which does make sense i'll have to check it out on mine
i might just order a strato reciever to test anyway
in anycase a 400ws studio strobe has a ton more power and headroom than even the most powerfull speedlight. 
and the price of the elinchrom d-lite4 IT kit is pretty unbeatable for the quality IMO (elinchrom modelling bulbs and modifiers are not cheap though but i buy these elinchrom to bownes adapters and then buy bownes modifiers
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Pro-Adapter-Mount-Ring-interchangeable-mount-Elinchrom-to-BOWENS-S458-/160778413846?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item256f23e716


----------



## RLPhoto (Jan 22, 2013)

So at 1/1 power on the einstein, I'd have a 1/1000th flash duration. So I cannot got any faster on my shutter speed than 1/1000th as the flash doesn't last long enough. Am I correct on this?

If so, I'd just add some Odins to my order.


----------



## docholliday (Jan 22, 2013)

I would have to ask if you care about color temperature accuracy and repeatability shot after shot. I cannot stand the cheap crap that PCB makes - I'd rather shoot old Novatron or Normans instead. If you're going for cheap, then be cheap!

Otherwise, look into the Elinchrom's, ProFotos, or my personal favorite - Broncolor. 

If you just need lights, then buy something in your budget with *a good modifier selection* and a standardized hookup. You'll be suprised how relatively cheap lights are by the time you get all the boxes, grids, snoots, reflectors, adapters, triggers, etc. attached to a kit.


----------



## wickidwombat (Jan 22, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> So at 1/1 power on the einstein, I'd have a 1/1000th flash duration. So I cannot got any faster on my shutter speed than 1/1000th as the flash doesn't last long enough. Am I correct on this?
> 
> If so, I'd just add some Odins to my order.



I am not sure if the odins do this on einsteins
I've only tested it on elinchrom strobes can you post a pic of what you are trying to do? to get an idea of just how much flash power you are chasing?
I also just ordered a stratto II reciever to see if it works becasue with the 3.5mm splitter the 1 reciever could theoretically fire 2 elinchrom strobes at 1/3rd of the cost of a single odin reciever


----------



## RLPhoto (Jan 22, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > So at 1/1 power on the einstein, I'd have a 1/1000th flash duration. So I cannot got any faster on my shutter speed than 1/1000th as the flash doesn't last long enough. Am I correct on this?
> ...



640 w/s is good for me. The novatron I had could fight the sun but they're too bulky, heavy, and color inconsistent that after using the tiny einstein strobe I borrowed, I was very impressed. 

I would just shoot thru NDs but if HSS is an option, I'd like to use it also.


----------



## agierke (Jan 22, 2013)

the einstein's are engineered to maintain color consistency in their normal mode throughout the power range. switching to the high speed mode and PCB says you will lose color consistency as you vary power.

gotta say TY to this thread! brought a new bit of information to me and now i have a project to look into to see if i can add capability to my bag of tricks. hope this works with the einsteins or i may feel the urge to add a couple more heads to the kit!


----------



## RLPhoto (Jan 22, 2013)

Ok, So let me get this all straighten out.

The odins allow strobe HSS because it pops the flash before the first curtain starts and the flash duration has to be slow enough for to last the whole exposure.

So based on this, the Slowest the Einsteins can go is 1/1000th according to PCB @ 1/1 power.

Thus, I can't shoot at anything slower than 1/1000th, because the flash is too fast and I'll get bars, but should be able to shoot above 1/1000th shutter speed because then the flash duration is slow enough to be recorded by both curtains.

Right?


----------



## wickidwombat (Jan 23, 2013)

hopefully someone that has einsteins and odins will chime in because I'm not sure how they will go
but the elinchroms will definately go right up to 1/8000


----------



## agierke (Jan 25, 2013)

here is a link to a thread on PCB's Tech forum including a post right at the end by Buff himself:

http://www.paulcbuff-techforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=839

doesn't look promising though it seems like their is some capability gained using the FlexTT5 and Einstein combo. i dont see why the Odin's would be better/different than this set up. still curious as to what hi speed sync could be gained on an PCB strobe/Canon combo though as no one on the forum stated any achieved settings.


----------



## brad goda (Feb 11, 2013)

sounds like you are needing lots of power at fast flash duration with HSS.
with budget in mind this is a tough one.

usually one of the fixes has been add a second head or bi-tube to the output channel and this will decrease duration by half. 
powering down increases flash duration 4 fold... but depends on quality of pack.
using many units at low power to make power requirement keeps duration fast but is costly.

if you are also needing HSS thats another can of worms... speedlights cant do it... then
gotta go elenchrom or profoto
profoto air systems syc up to 1/1500 with Air system strobes.

http://www.profoto.com/air

in the past hass and most leaf shutter 4X5 & 8X10 lenses sync up to 1/500 and 1/1000
there we had tons of power issues needing to light @ f22 to f45 !! yes depth of field was critical when shooting a subject with a standard 150 or 240mm lens and close up subjects needing +2 stops more light with bellows factor incurred. now shooting 35DSLR is duck soup.
-- high iso now will allow you to operate your studio lights at a lower power to get your quick flash durations... ive tried TT5s and they do not operate consistently above 1/250... got rid of them.

good luck having dependable consistent lighting is a must and time saver...
it allows us to concentrate on the creative rather than the system misfiring and loosing time and potential beautifully captured images


----------



## RLPhoto (Feb 11, 2013)

I've looked at all the options and It looks like Einstein will be my strobe of choice for the next decade.

Broncolor/Profoto- Fantastic mods, & fast duration's w/pack systems but steep... Very steep.

Elinchrom - Great Mods, (Neat inflated softboxes), but duration's are too slow and decent price for mono-lights, packs are pricey. Gives the Unique HSS, very interesting.

PCB - Ok Mods, Fast durations or Consistent color, not both at the same time... VML's are cheap, Mono's are cheap, Mods are cheap and Service is top-notch USA. HSS is not confirmed with odins...


----------

