# Canon 5D MKIV dual memory card question



## JRPhotos (Sep 17, 2017)

I use the *SanDisk 32GB Extreme Pro CompactFlash Memory Card* (160MB/s) but am thinking about getting the *SanDisk 64GB Extreme PRO SDXC UHS-I Memory Card* and have the camera write to both cards at the same time for a backup.

Will I see any performance loss?


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## pwp (Sep 17, 2017)

JRPhotos said:


> I use the *SanDisk 32GB Extreme Pro CompactFlash Memory Card* (160MB/s) but am thinking about getting the *SanDisk 64GB Extreme PRO SDXC UHS-I Memory Card* and have the camera write to both cards at the same time for a backup.
> 
> Will I see any performance loss?



The buffer may take a touch longer to flush. If there is a performance loss, you'll only see it when you're doing deep continuous bursts. It's a very simple matter to test using different card configurations. Just shoot RAW, high speed continuous and time when the buffer starts to stutter. 

When I'm shooting sports, I'll write to two cards on the 1DX (twin CF) but with the 7DII I take out the SD and shoot CF only. 

-pw


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## SecureGSM (Sep 17, 2017)

In 3 words: yes, you will. 

As CF interface is faster than SD on the Mark IV. 
Take a look the following page:

https://www.cameramemoryspeed.com/canon-5d-mark-iv/sd-cf-card-speed-test/

CF 98 vs SD 74 images taken in 30 seconds - continuos shooting

It may will or won't make a difference for your style of shooting. But numbers are there for you to consider. 
I personally shoot writing to both cards simultaneously. Redundancy is more important for me.


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## Mikehit (Sep 17, 2017)

I have tried both SD card and CF card in my 7D2 and both give up to 50-shot burst before slowing down which suggests there is little time difference in buffer clearance. Seeing as I can't think of a time I did a burst in excess of 6 seconds I am happy to use either.


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## SecureGSM (Sep 17, 2017)

HI Mike,

the OP's question was about 5D IV though. SD and CF card slot throughput is different for your cam.
5D IV numbers are a bit better as they should for the newer cameras anyway. 




Mikehit said:


> I have tried both SD card and CF card in my 7D2 and both give up to 50-shot burst before slowing down which suggests there is little time difference in buffer clearance. Seeing as I can't think of a time I did a burst in excess of 6 seconds I am happy to use either.


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## Mikehit (Sep 17, 2017)

Hi securegsm - I realise that, I should have been more clear in saying if I do not note a performance hit on the 7D2 I very much doubt it will be an issue with the 5DIV if you are using the fastest cards of either type.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 17, 2017)

A SD Card is SLOW! The figures they give are for suckers! The write speeds are what you get only under special circumstances when the card is new, otherwise, you will get about 10-20 Mb/sec.

The simple reason is that once a card has been used, a block erase cycle must be done before the old data on the card can be overwritten. That is a slow process, so it doesn't matter much how fast the card can write if the camera must first wait for a erase cycle.

You can get around this by doing a low level format before using a card, but, of course, 500 of those and the card is toast.


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## SecureGSM (Sep 17, 2017)

oh.. not 500. please


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## BasXcanon (Sep 17, 2017)

I know this is not for every one..... but have you considered setting your DOF preview button to One touch image quality??? I can write Raw + JPEG to my cards in a burst, when I notice the raw buffer is filled , I hold the One touch IQ and it continues on unlimited jpeg only.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 17, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> oh.. not 500. please



I exaggerated, Its probably more like 150,000 write cycles before 10% of them fail, but I'd avoid low level formats until they are needed, such as before a long video.


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## Frodo (Sep 17, 2017)

Hi MSP, is that even an issue? A daily format gives 1000 in three years. At which point, you'd probably upgrade the card, which would have paid for itself.
I do a non-low-level format each time I upload images. But then this is for a 6D.


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## RGF (Sep 17, 2017)

as other have said it is slower to write to a SD than a CF card.

Implications:

If you never fill the buffer and wait for sufficient time for the buffer to be written, you will not see a performance difference.

If on the other hand, you fill the buffer then the FPS will drop w/ dual writing. And it will take the longer to write the buffer to the cards (i.e., empty the buffer)


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## privatebydesign (Sep 17, 2017)

On my 1DS MkIII's, which also had an SD and CF card slots, I only ever used the SD slot when I was shooting remotely so I could put medium jpegs on it to view remotely. Any other time I found it slowed the camera down too much, which has always been my biggest issue with the notion of a second card slot as a 'backup'. What use is it if it restricts speed and response?

The way Canon almost always implement dual slots (all but the 1DX) is not conducive to using them as a 'backup' strategy so I never do, even the 1DX MkII moved yet again to different capability slots!


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## AlanF (Sep 17, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> SecureGSM said:
> 
> 
> > oh.. not 500. please
> ...



Is that the same for CF cards?


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## JRPhotos (Sep 17, 2017)

I may give it a try at some point, I almost never do burst shooting.


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## littleB (Sep 17, 2017)

I made exactly the same experiment some time ago:
5D mk4, CF 128 GB Sandisk extreme pro (rated 160), and SD expreme pro 64 GB UHS-I.

I do not remember exact results, but approximately sustained frame rates are: like 3.2 fps for single CF, 2.8 single SD, and 2.3-2.4 fps if writing RAW to CF+SD


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2017)

Colleagues -- I also use CF + SD in my %d3 & 4 for redundancy. I rarely shoot in bursts of > 8-10. But I was, I admit, alarmed at the statement that low-level formatting of SD will damage it or shorten life. I have long assumed that formatting a card prior to use is better for it, not worse, and hence I always format both CF and SD after I download (and back up) my day's take. But should I avoid low level formatting? Sorry for such a simple question but I'm a pretty simple guy.


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## SecureGSM (Sep 18, 2017)

Private with all due respect:

SD tech moved on quite a bit since the 1DS days. in fact 5d III to 5d IV = huge difference in SD card slot throughput. massive difference.

With 5D IV: SD slot is no longer being a serious limitation with 78 shots - 30 seconds of continuous shooting - vs 98 on CF.
therefore, writing to both card simultaneously is *a reasonable* compromise, trade off in order to protect images. please read on..

with regard to what Mt. Spokane Photography just said and he is very close to the mark. Thank you. I would like to bring this into perspective if I may as I feel that this being an important subject:




> I exaggerated, Its probably more like 150,000 write cycles before 10% of them fail, but I'd avoid low level formats until they are needed, such as before a long video



With *modern NAND memory* - *Wear Leveling protection aside* as low level format is full rewrite of every single byte of information - expectancy of the life is:

5000 to 10000 cycles (!!!!) ONLY !!!

it used to be up to 100,000 but with modern high density chip architecture and diminished quality due to cost saving race to the bottom, it is now roughly *5000*. 

Here is the message to naysayers: *the chances for the card to fail is dangerously high at 1:5000 for the brand new card*. anyone who understand probabilities would not ever risk writing to a single card if what you shoot is valuable or worth a dime at least. 






privatebydesign said:


> On my 1DS MkIII's, which also had an SD and CF card slots, I only ever used the SD slot when I was shooting remotely so I could put medium jpegs on it to view remotely. Any other time I found it slowed the camera down too much, which has always been my biggest issue with the notion of a second card slot as a 'backup'. What use is it if it restricts speed and response?
> 
> The way Canon almost always implement dual slots (all but the 1DX) is not conducive to using them as a 'backup' strategy so I never do, even the 1DX MkII moved yet again to different capability slots!


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## SecureGSM (Sep 18, 2017)

you are right on the money, Thank you very much:

that gives you : 96 vs 84 images per 30 seconds continuous shooting . which is almost identical to the 98 vs 78 numbers I evangelised above.

let's look at the lowest numbers: 98 vs 78

CF card slot throughput is *only 25% faster* than SD card slot throughput on 5D IV.

therefore writing to both cards simultaneously may be considered as a reasonable compromise *unless peak performance was required* - heavy continuous shooting, high bitrate video, etc.





littleB said:


> I made exactly the same experiment some time ago:
> 5D mk4, CF 128 GB Sandisk extreme pro (rated 160), and SD expreme pro 64 GB UHS-I.
> 
> I do not remember exact results, but approximately *sustained frame rates are: like 3.2 fps for single CF, 2.8 single SD,* and 2.3-2.4 fps if writing RAW to CF+SD


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## privatebydesign (Sep 18, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> Private with all due respect:
> 
> SD tech moved on quite a bit since the 1DS days. in fact 5d III to 5d IV = huge difference in SD card slot throughput. massive difference.
> 
> ...



'Reasonable 'is entirely subjective so my actual point stands. Dual slots in all Canon cameras (except the 1DX/1DC) is a compromise, which is what I said and is why I, personally, don't use them unless the situation dictates a different compromise, like tethered shooting where sending RAW files is too slow.

The newer SD card and slot tech is, with respect, irrelevant, it might change the compromise curve for some however knowing how cheap so many people are (the endless wailing about $7.99 a month for Adobe irrespective of the misunderstood 'renting' aspect being a prime example) I would wager most people are using older generation left over SD cards from previous cameras as their 'backup', thereby compromising themselves in speed and reliability.


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## SecureGSM (Sep 18, 2017)

Good one!  where is the "BOW" smile on the forum. Priceless!

I recently purchased 32 GB 95MB/s SD card for A$29.00 - that is what? US$24.00?? people that consider this being expensive, in my opinion, deserve being professionally destroyed.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SanDisk-SDHC-Extreme-Pro-95MB-s-U3-C10-32GB-Memory-Card-SD-HC-UHS-I-Class-10-A/281370106868





privatebydesign said:


> I would wager most people are using older generation left over SD cards from previous cameras as their 'backup', thereby compromising themselves in speed and reliability.


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## pwp (Sep 18, 2017)

JRPhotos said:


> I may give it a try at some point, I almost never do burst shooting.



If you never or rarely shoot bursts, you're never going to notice. But go for the SD option. Redundancy may not save your shoot tomorrow, but it might next week. 

-pw


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## Frodo (Sep 19, 2017)

What is card failure rate for modern cards?
I've never had a CF or SD card fail, but have had many (>10) USB thumb drives fail.
From my experience, my memory cards have been the most reliable piece of gear that I owned.
My worst gear failure was when the mirror fell off my 5D.
I would rather have two cameras at a critical event than one with two slots.


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## Valvebounce (Sep 20, 2017)

Hi Frodo. 
Yes that kind of ruins the backup principle, I was talking to a chap that had the flying mirror issue on a safari, he thought that he might be able to get some shots by pointing it and praying it was pointing the right way until he found that focus and metering went away too! 
Apparently it can be fixed in the field if you have some superglue available, he said it took him a while to get the glue and courage to go at it then it was fixed in a short time. Safari salvaged. 

Cheers, Graham. 



Frodo said:


> What is card failure rate for modern cards?
> I've never had a CF or SD card fail, but have had many (>10) USB thumb drives fail.
> From my experience, my memory cards have been the most reliable piece of gear that I owned.
> My worst gear failure was when the mirror fell off my 5D.
> I would rather have two cameras at a critical event than one with two slots.


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## Ian_of_glos (Sep 20, 2017)

When I first bought my 5D mark 4 I set it up to write the RAW files to the CF card and the JPEGs to the SD card and I never noticed any performance degradation. I assume that writing the larger RAW files to the CF card will become a constraint before writing the smaller JPEGs to the SD card does, but in practice it was never a problem. The performance data I have seen suggest that you can write 21 RAW files to the CF card before the buffer fills up and I probably never reached that many, even for one of my longer bursts. 
However, what really annoys me is that, if you write the RAW file to one card and the JPEG to the other then the Canon EOS utility thinks that it has two files with the same name and appends a _1 to the JPEG file name when it copies it to the computer. I don't know why it does this because the files actually have different names (FILE01.CR2 and FILE02.JPG). Bizarrely, if the files are both written to the same card then it does not rename either file and it copies them both to the computer with the correct file names. Having to rename all my JPEGs became so annoying that I now no longer use this feature and I write the RAW and JPEGs to the CF card and the SD card is never used except as an overflow.


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## Valvebounce (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi Ian. 
First of all did you mean "FILE01.CR2 and FILE02.JPG" or as mine are labled (different model of camera) FILE01.CR2 and FILE01.JPG?
Second, I import via card reader and use Windows to do the import (rather than some other software), I accidentally imported both cards to the same folder and they were all mixed together but kept the correct numbers as *.cr2 *.jpg, I'm guessing that file type being different is why that worked, but I did select to show file extensions when I set up my pc, I don't know if that would make a difference? 
I normally keep mine separated by having a subfolder for the Jpeg images as I don't usually use them, they get deleted once I get to making the Jpegs from the Raw file. 

Cheers, Graham. 



Ian_of_glos said:


> the files actually have different names (FILE01.CR2 and FILE02.JPG). Bizarrely, if the files are both written to the same card then it does not rename either file and it copies them both to the computer with the correct file names. Having to rename all my JPEGs became so annoying that I now no longer use this feature and I write the RAW and JPEGs to the CF card and the SD card is never used except as an overflow.


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## Ian_of_glos (Sep 22, 2017)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Ian.
> First of all did you mean "FILE01.CR2 and FILE02.JPG" or as mine are labled (different model of camera) FILE01.CR2 and FILE01.JPG?
> Second, I import via card reader and use Windows to do the import (rather than some other software), I accidentally imported both cards to the same folder and they were all mixed together but kept the correct numbers as *.cr2 *.jpg, I'm guessing that file type being different is why that worked, but I did select to show file extensions when I set up my pc, I don't know if that would make a difference?
> I normally keep mine separated by having a subfolder for the Jpeg images as I don't usually use them, they get deleted once I get to making the Jpegs from the Raw file.
> ...


Sorry - my typo. That's what happens when I try to reply whilst I am on a long and very boring conference call!
Just to recap - when I save the raw files to the CF card and the JPEGs to the SD card I can look on the two cards and see that they are named correctly - in this example FILE01.CR2 and FILE01.JPG. The problem occurs when I use the Canon EOS utility to copy the files onto the computer. The raw file is copied correctly and appears on the computer as FILE01.CR2. However the JPEG is renamed FILE01_01.JPG. This is also what happens when I inadvertently copy the files twice, so it looks to me as if the Canon EOS utility thinks that FILE01.CR2 is the same file name as FILE01.JPG so it decides to rename it. If I save both the raw and the JPEG to the same card then the Canon EOS utility does not do this - they are copied to the computer correctly with the names FILE01.CR2 and FILE01.JPG - that is what I want and that is how the camera is configured now. However I have lost the advantage of having a backup copy of each file on a different card. I suppose I could write the raw and JPEGs to both cards, but I am worried about the performance of the SD card limiting the number of shots I can take in burst mode before the buffer fills up. That is why initially I was only saving JPEGs to the SD card.
Is there a way of copying the files onto the computer without using the Canon EOS utility? I quite like the way that the EOS utility creates a new folder for each date as this allows me to go straight to the date I am interested in and work on the files for the event that took place on that day. Are there any other utilities that allow me to do something similar?


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## Valvebounce (Sep 23, 2017)

Hi Ian. 
I seem to recall that Windows can assign dated folders the same as the EOS utility but I'm not 100% certain of that. 
Did the 5DIII have the same issue, also did you have to update EOS Utilty for the 5DIV? Maybe it was that update that knackered things?

Cheers, Graham. 



Ian_of_glos said:


> Is there a way of copying the files onto the computer without using the Canon EOS utility? I quite like the way that the EOS utility creates a new folder for each date as this allows me to go straight to the date I am interested in and work on the files for the event that took place on that day. Are there any other utilities that allow me to do something similar?


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## Rejay14 (Sep 27, 2017)

I have both the 1DX-II and 5DIV.. I remove the slower card from each before I transfer with EOS Utility. Otherwise, they double-write 

I have the program set up to rename on import. The naming structure is the date, time and consecutive shots within each second up to 999. That way it is impossible for any files to have the same names and you don't run into the IMG99999.jpg conundrum. Hope this helps.


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## pwp (Sep 27, 2017)

Ian_of_glos said:


> Is there a way of copying the files onto the computer without using the Canon EOS utility? I quite like the way that the EOS utility creates a new folder for each date as this allows me to go straight to the date I am interested in and work on the files for the event that took place on that day. Are there any other utilities that allow me to do something similar?


There's always the oldest method of all...drag and drop, just as you would from any other drive or folder, to your chosen destination folder. Many professional photographers around the planet will use PhotoMechanic's "Ingest" function. This is highly customizable. I use a dedicated download program with a touch more customization available, BreezeBrowser Downloader Pro from Chris Breeze at Breezsys. It's PC only. You can test drive either of these for free for a generous period.

-pw


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## Talys (Sep 27, 2017)

pwp said:


> Ian_of_glos said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a way of copying the files onto the computer without using the Canon EOS utility? I quite like the way that the EOS utility creates a new folder for each date as this allows me to go straight to the date I am interested in and work on the files for the event that took place on that day. Are there any other utilities that allow me to do something similar?
> ...



If it's something where there's only a relatively small number of keepers (for example, birding), what I'll do is open the memory card directly from DPP, and drag files from the filmstrip at the bottom into an explorer window (with my hard drive) on a separate monitor. It's a first level of screening; let's face it, why copy over shots where I missed the bird completely, or it's so close to the edge of the frame that it's unusable. 

Then I do a Lightroom import and quickly screen through again, deleting more generously, and if I missed any shots that I remember taking that should have been good, I'll hunt for them on the card, but this is pretty rare. Then, I reformat the card.


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## Ian_of_glos (Sep 27, 2017)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Ian.
> I seem to recall that Windows can assign dated folders the same as the EOS utility but I'm not 100% certain of that.
> Did the 5DIII have the same issue, also did you have to update EOS Utilty for the 5DIV? Maybe it was that update that knackered things?
> 
> ...


On the 5D Mark 3 the performance of the SD card was so poor that I never used it. I shoot a lot of fast action sports so this was important to me.
One of the reasons why I upgraded to the 5D Mark 4 was so that I could write to both cards just in case one of them failed, but I cannot use my preferred option of Write Separately (RAW going to the CF card and JPEG going to the SD card) because the EOS utility renames the JPEGs when I copy them to the computer. Instead, for general photography I am now using Record to Multiple and when I am shooting sports I change to Auto Switch Card but I only save the JPEGs. This works quite well but it is not my preferred configuration.
I have reported the problem to Canon and they acknowledge that the EOS utility is not working as designed. They advised me to upgrade to EOS Utility v3.7 but this has not fixed the problem.
I will try some of the other options for copying the files to the computer that various contributors have suggested and see if any of them are suitable.


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## bitm2007 (Sep 27, 2017)

> I exaggerated, Its probably more like 150,000 write cycles before 10% of them fail, but I'd avoid low level formats until they are needed, such as before a long video
> 
> With *modern NAND memory* - *Wear Leveling protection aside* as low level format is full rewrite of every single byte of information - expectancy of the life is:
> 
> ...



That still sounds huge to me. The 5D4's shutter is likely to fail dozens of times before that figure is reached (assuming the card isn't reformatted after a few images on a regular basis).


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## SecureGSM (Sep 27, 2017)

correction: it has to be a low level reformatting as a quick format operation does not rewrite every single block. Nevertheless, I had a card failed on me before. call me a looser  



bitm2007 said:


> That still sounds huge to me. The 5D4's shutter is likely to fail dozens of times before that fixture is reached (assuming the card isn't reformatted after a few images on a regular basis).


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## littleB (Sep 30, 2017)

Today I did this experiment again and my results:

1. CF (Sandisk extreme pro, black one, rated 160/150): buffer burst = 7.4 fps; sustained rate = 3.6 fps;
2. SD (Sandisk extreme pro UHS-I, black one, rated 95/90): buffer burst = 7.6 fps; sustained rate = 2.8 fps;
3. CF+SD (same cards as above): buffer burst = 7.4 fps; sustained rate = 2.5 fps.

Many factors (ISO, exposure metering, focusing setting) influence the rate, even battery charge may have some impact on fps, so YMMV.
SD is obviously slower, but CF+SD is even more slower. My guess is that writing to both cards is not fully parallel, the processor has to do some coordination, so the dual card fps is a bit slower than SD.


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