# Canon to announce EOS-1D X equivalent EOS R system camera in 2021?



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 6, 2019)

> According to a report in the Nikkan Kogyo Shimbun, one of Japan’s primary newspapers, Canon will introduce a truly professional EOS R system camera in 2021.
> In the report, they also state that early prototypes have already been manufactured and are in testing.
> The article also suggests that it’s going to take Canon another 3 years to get the RF lens lineup to match up with the breadth and depth of the EF lineup. This seems quite likely, lenses are not easy to engineer and manufacture.
> Canon also mentions that they’re working on a converter/adapter to turn a mirrorless camera into a DSLR.
> ...



Continue reading...


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## Deleted member 381342 (Sep 6, 2019)

Right in line with lens buying year! (sure I'll want a new camera to go with it that can focus on a BIF or skittish snake)


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## peters (Sep 6, 2019)

That would be incredible long.... though not entirely unlikely...


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## fabao (Sep 6, 2019)

For sure it is going to be next decade!


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## djack41 (Sep 6, 2019)

Too slow, Canon. Sony is releasing the A9ll very soon and it will likely raise the bar yet again.


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## reef58 (Sep 6, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Too slow, Canon. Sony is releasing the A9ll very soon and it will likely raise the bar yet again.



I guess that is good and all if you want a Sony. I have no desire for one, so not too slow for me. I want the DSLR version though 1dx3.


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## Nelu (Sep 6, 2019)

"Canon also mentions that they’re working on a converter/adapter to turn a mirrorless camera into a DSLR. "
I would be more interested in an adapter that does it the other way around...


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## docsmith (Sep 6, 2019)

I love these threads

It's like cutting to the comments from the two grumpy dudes in the back of the Muppets


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## RayValdez360 (Sep 6, 2019)

Nelu said:


> "Canon also mentions that they’re working on a converter/adapter to turn a mirrorless camera into a DSLR. "
> I would be more interested in an adapter that does it the other way around...


the mirror lock up already turns it mirrorless with no VF


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 6, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> converter/adapter to turn a mirrorless camera into a DSLR


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## chrisdeckard (Sep 6, 2019)

I have no need for a 1DX style camera. I need a pro feature version of a 5D Mark IV though. Dual card slots is a must. And it doesn't have to have stellar video, but it needs to be as good as the 5D4.


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## jolyonralph (Sep 6, 2019)

Ergonomically a OVF adaptor could only really work with a body such as the M6 II and even then one wonders how it would be able to screw it in to attach. Possibly the M mount on the adaptor would have to rotate separately from the adaptor in order for it to attach without the viewfinder getting in the way.

One does really wonder if there's any point. Unless it's to finally kill off the DSLRs and get the 7D diehards over to mirrorless.


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## edoorn (Sep 6, 2019)

I sincerely hope the high res R can also double as some sort of 5D IV option thru the use of mRaw options (provided there's enough fps left and the blackout is better than the R).

Or maybe we'll see a mark II of the R which steps up the game a bit. 2021 seems way too long.


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## HikeBike (Sep 6, 2019)

edoorn said:


> Or maybe we'll see a mark II of the R which steps up the game a bit. 2021 seems way too long.



Just my two cents, but I don't think we'll see the R Mk II until 2022. Guessing the main selling points will be IBIS, a new sensor, and an updated processor (all pretty safe bets).


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## YuengLinger (Sep 6, 2019)

IF Canon is really not going to introduce a 5D level Rf mount until AFTER a 1DX kind of camera, wow, that is a frustrating, long wait.

On the other hand, the only thing I'm really missing with EF is a decent 50mm f/1.2, so maybe I've developed some tunnel vision here.

Maybe Canon's best efforts really did go into the R, and that's the best they can do right now. So what if other companies have IBIS, better EVF's for action, better weather sealing, better function controls...If Canon did their best, it is what it is.

And, of course, on this sight, if we speculate a tiny bit negatively about the future of Canon, the crusaders will question our intelligence, our mental health, and our motives. And then some of the crusaders' loyal sycophants will put us on their IGNORE list! 

So just shut up or sing some praises.


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## criscokkat (Sep 6, 2019)

edoorn said:


> I sincerely hope the high res R can also double as some sort of 5D IV option thru the use of mRaw options (provided there's enough fps left and the blackout is better than the R).
> 
> Or maybe we'll see a mark II of the R which steps up the game a bit. 2021 seems way too long.


I agree. 2021 seems long for releasing this. I realize that's only 16 months from now but I would have thought fall of 2020 with select photographers testing it at the Olympics next year.


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## arthurbikemad (Sep 6, 2019)

I'm hanging out for the 1DX3 and a Pro Hi Res R, and a Pro Hi Speed R... Oh my.... Good job its 2021..


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## neurorx (Sep 6, 2019)

Yes wanting a next step over the 5D IV. I’m feeling the long refresh cycles. I’m due for an upgrade with my 5D3...waiting until late 2020 is not a happy thought. The high MP cameras likely won’t have the flexibility of either of these cameras. 

I realize Sony seems to be pushing out cameras, but I am still not convinced of the sharpness of the a7r iV and then there is the color palate. If the rumors are true about the a9 ii with 30ish MP, it will be a beast. Hoping Canon gives us something soon.


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## proutprout (Sep 6, 2019)

Now it’s a very big question to invest in the lenses line, because they might actually not be able to get a pro-body out at all. I was enthousiastic and willing to wait a little, but it looks like u have to wait until they actually get a real camera out to see if it’s worth investing in the linup


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## YuengLinger (Sep 6, 2019)

neurorx said:


> Yes wanting a next step over the 5D IV. I’m feeling the long refresh cycles. I’m due for an upgrade with my 5D3...waiting until late 2020 is not a happy thought. The high MP cameras likely won’t have the flexibility of either of these cameras.
> 
> I realize Sony seems to be pushing out cameras, but I am still not convinced of the sharpness of the a7r iV and then there is the color palate. If the rumors are true about the a9 ii with 30ish MP, it will be a beast. Hoping Canon gives us something soon.


Have you tried a 5D Mark 4? It's a much bigger improvement over the 5D Mark 3 than specs suggest.


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## unfocused (Sep 6, 2019)

Take your time Canon and get it right. The R is an excellent camera and a fine companion to the 5D. In the meantime, give people the high resolution version for those who want that. Give us the 1DxIII with better autofocus and slightly more resolution. 

Decide what you want to do about the 7D user base (migrate to a RF mount or give them the DSLR they really want). The longer it takes, the better it all will be and the more time my wallet has to recover.


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## HikeBike (Sep 6, 2019)

proutprout said:


> Now it’s a very big question to invest in the lenses line, because they might actually not be able to get a pro-body out at all. I was enthousiastic and willing to wait a little, but it looks like u have to wait until they actually get a real camera out to see if it’s worth investing in the linup


I agree it's smart to hold off buying any RF lenses until the R body you really want/need is released, but I have absolutely no doubt that Canon will succeed in making pro R bodies.


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## edoorn (Sep 6, 2019)

proutprout said:


> Now it’s a very big question to invest in the lenses line, because they might actually not be able to get a pro-body out at all. I was enthousiastic and willing to wait a little, but it looks like u have to wait until they actually get a real camera out to see if it’s worth investing in the linup



yeah I agree. For sure the R is a good camera, but it's not really the pro body we're waiting for.


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## YuengLinger (Sep 6, 2019)

HikeBike said:


> I agree it's smart to hold off buying any RF lenses until the R body you really want/need is released, but I have absolutely no doubt that Canon will succeed in making pro R bodies.



Until recently, I would have 100% agreed with you. But seeing Canon's financial statements this year, considering how the ILC industry as a whole is trying to find a significantly profitable direction, and _ feeling_ as if Canon is losing its commitment to the pro and prosumer customer base (admittedly due mostly to my impatience)...I am beginning to _ imagine_ a Canon that just spins off its EOS line to a Chinese or Indian company that would do who knows what with it. Oh, yes, this is a huge LEAP of anxiety, but the release of the tepid R with spectacular lenses, the likely abandonment of any more EF innovation, and the slowing release schedule feed into it.

And for those who dependably, furiously respond with great derision and indignation, please, remember...This is a RUMORS site!


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## criscokkat (Sep 6, 2019)

jolyonralph said:


> Ergonomically a OVF adaptor could only really work with a body such as the M6 II and even then one wonders how it would be able to screw it in to attach. Possibly the M mount on the adaptor would have to rotate separately from the adaptor in order for it to attach without the viewfinder getting in the way.
> 
> One does really wonder if there's any point. Unless it's to finally kill off the DSLRs and get the 7D diehards over to mirrorless.



I can see the value of the DSLR that can become mirrorless. We all know that the current crop of aps-c cameras are functionally the same as the mirrorless models when used in Live View. If they kept the same focusing sensors of the current DSLR's, handing that off to the dual-pixel sensors to make a more precise auto-adjustment should be possible in a fraction of a second. (or they could just use that focus data as is). If they made the housing above the mirror a bit larger they could position the mirror in such a way that allows it to bounce off the projection from a EVF screen. This way when the mirror is locked up, it displays the evf and acts just like a typical mirrorless.

If that's how this patent works I'd say this is more of a 'make a dslr into a mirrorless'

The big issue is how you make this work with short registration distance lenses, like the R. Or do you just give up that functionality?

This sort of tech would work well with a replacement for the 7dII as well. They keep saying there's going to be a 'head scratching camera' and I don't think the 90d or m60 II was that.

Edit: If the mirror could slide up and down vertically, and the evf rotates into view, you could have the ability for the dslr to use R mount when R lenses are attached an use the OVF and focus sensor when EF lenses are mounted.


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## GMCPhotographics (Sep 6, 2019)

jolyonralph said:


> Ergonomically a OVF adaptor could only really work with a body such as the M6 II and even then one wonders how it would be able to screw it in to attach. Possibly the M mount on the adaptor would have to rotate separately from the adaptor in order for it to attach without the viewfinder getting in the way.
> 
> One does really wonder if there's any point. Unless it's to finally kill off the DSLRs and get the 7D diehards over to mirrorless.



I kind of read the press release and thought...hey isn't the EOS R already bundled with a EF to Rf adapter...and then I realized from your post that they were inferring a EF to Rf adapter with a OVF in between! I think Friday is already having it's toll on me at 6:33 pm...


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## HikeBike (Sep 6, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> They keep saying there's going to be a 'head scratching camera' and I don't think the 90d or m60 II was that.


Based on the rumors only, I'm thinking the head-scratching camera will be an astrophotography model. We shall see...


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## canonnews (Sep 6, 2019)

jolyonralph said:


> Ergonomically a OVF adaptor could only really work with a body such as the M6 II and even then one wonders how it would be able to screw it in to attach. Possibly the M mount on the adaptor would have to rotate separately from the adaptor in order for it to attach without the viewfinder getting in the way.
> 
> One does really wonder if there's any point. Unless it's to finally kill off the DSLRs and get the 7D diehards over to mirrorless.



Yes. The patent is weird. I thought of a way that it could work though.

Canon goes back to removable viewfinders.
The EVF removes and you attach the OVF viewfinder assembly and the adapter to the front of the 1DR.

That would be .. crazy.


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## canonnews (Sep 6, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> IF Canon is really not going to introduce a 5D level Rf mount until AFTER a 1DX kind of camera, wow, that is a frustrating, long wait.


I'm not sure where you get that from.

Simply put a 1 series camera body takes a long time for Canon to design, develop and put into limited manufacturing, test,test,test, and then finally ready for production. After the 1D Mark III incident, I suspect Canon's gotten even more careful about pre-testing the cameras.

Then we have the fact that Canon's busy doing the 1DX Mark III - I can imagine it's easier for Canon to stagger the releases.

This really has nothing to do with the 5 series cameras.


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## neurorx (Sep 6, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Have you tried a 5D Mark 4? It's a much bigger improvement over the 5D Mark 3 than specs suggest.


Yes I got one when they first launched it and used it along with my 5D3. I liked the touchscreen, the added cropping ability and the silent shutter but the price at the time 3200 didn’t justify the positives so I returned it. I shoot sports/events, portraits and landscapes so the 5D line has been a wonderful balance. Now the price is lower but the next camera hopefully is close and technology enough to justify the price.


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## Del Paso (Sep 6, 2019)

No need to hurry, or to buy anything from competition: the next generation EOS 1 will be ready for the Olympics.
Or did you think it possible for Canon to introduce half a dozen new cameras plus many lenses within 1 year?
Let's just be realistic!
And if you still believe the A 9 can compete with an EOS 1 D, take a look at the mud-caked (still working) EOS 1 Ds used during the Downhill World Championship in Mont Ste. Anne in Canada (www.pinkbike.com).


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## YuengLinger (Sep 6, 2019)

canonnews said:


> I'm not sure where you get that from.
> 
> ...
> 
> This really has nothing to do with the 5 series cameras.



One or more mod posted stories on this site. Maybe not enough to go on, but have you read ANYTHING about a 5 series type R in the works?


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## Canon1966 (Sep 6, 2019)

I would like a canon with sony specs...


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## canonnews (Sep 6, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> One or more mod posted stories on this site. Maybe not enough to go on, but have you read ANYTHING about a 5 series type R in the works?



everything's pretty fuzzy really.

However, if you look at Canon's evolution of mirrorless in the last 12 months, they are getting closer to delivering a camera that would be in that category. They have managed to eek out 14 fps across 32MP. That's more than enough if they can get the full frame sensors working quickly enough to handle a 5D system. The AF is going to be dramatically improved in a few weeks for the R and RP. Good AF, fast processing is half the battle for a 5D styled camera.

Also - Canon won't go into the best marketing year in the last 20 years without some serious RF announcements. They will have HUGE presence at CP+, Photokina and their own Canon Expo next year.

I'd be shocked if we didn't get at least two EOS R cameras, but that's my own personal opinion.


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## slclick (Sep 6, 2019)

docsmith said:


> I love these threads
> 
> It's like cutting to the comments from the two grumpy dudes in the back of the Muppets


Except it's the old guys who have patience.


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## HikeBike (Sep 6, 2019)

I'm very interested to see the new bodies Canon releases, mainly because I'm a geek...but I think (I hope) my perfect camera will be the R Mk II, whenever that comes about. I mainly want IBIS added. In the meantime, I'm still amazed by the R. Then again, this is coming from a guy who upgraded from a T3i...so, yeah. Haha...


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## M. D. Vaden of Oregon (Sep 6, 2019)

HikeBike said:


> Just my two cents, but I don't think we'll see the R Mk II until 2022. Guessing the main selling points will be IBIS, a new sensor, and an updated processor (all pretty safe bets).



I'm hearing from photographers already going dual body EOS for wedding now, having sold their 5D mk iv's. They want dual card bodies ideally, but like the EOS R much better. It would be a piece of cake to make a dual card version of the current EOS R. Some like myself, could care less about IBIS.

The one thing I hear most, like from about 9 in 10 photographers waiting on the next RF body, is the 2nd card slot.


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## David Hull (Sep 6, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Too slow, Canon. Sony is releasing the A9ll very soon and it will likely raise the bar yet again.


Yea but it is still a Sony, pathetic UI, poor customer service and all that goes with it.


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## AccipiterQ (Sep 6, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Until recently, I would have 100% agreed with you. But seeing Canon's financial statements this year, considering how the ILC industry as a whole is trying to find a significantly profitable direction, and _ feeling_ as if Canon is losing its commitment to the pro and prosumer customer base (admittedly due mostly to my impatience)...I am beginning to _ imagine_ a Canon that just spins off its EOS line to a Chinese or Indian company that would do who knows what with it. Oh, yes, this is a huge LEAP of anxiety, but the release of the tepid R with spectacular lenses, the likely abandonment of any more EF innovation, and the slowing release schedule feed into it.
> 
> And for those who dependably, furiously respond with great derision and indignation, please, remember...This is a RUMORS site!



After the past couple of months I actually started saying that I think Canon is going to wind down commitment to nature photographers. The fact that their best offering right now is the 5 year old 7Dii, I don't think that's a leap. I'm not sure what advantages a 7Dii has over an a6500 at this point, especially now that Sony is putting out 600mm lenses. I was REALLY hoping for something, but Canon's silence speaks volume. No APS-C mirrorless, no replacement for the 7Dii, no pro-body R for at least 2 years...If the prototype pro-body R is already out, that means the specs on it aren't going to change a TON. Which means once again we'll be getting old tech compared to what Sony & Nikon shooters get. Really starting to regret all the Canon glass I bought.


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## AccipiterQ (Sep 6, 2019)

David Hull said:


> Yea but it is still a Sony, pathetic UI, poor customer service and all that goes with it.



You get used to UI though, I'm sure Sony fans say the same about Canon UI


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## Photo Hack (Sep 6, 2019)

canonnews said:


> I'm not sure where you get that from.
> 
> Simply put a 1 series camera body takes a long time for Canon to design, develop and put into limited manufacturing, test,test,test, and then finally ready for production. After the 1D Mark III incident, I suspect Canon's gotten even more careful about pre-testing the cameras.
> 
> ...


What was the mark iii incident?


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## JGalicki (Sep 6, 2019)

I'm a wildlife shooter and recently invested in Canon's new 600mm mark III. It's light, incredible and works well with my 1DX II and 5D Mark IV. That said, I'm worried how this lens, along with the rest of my EF lineup, will interact with the new mirrorless bodies. I don't have the EOS R as it was too slow for my needs, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the adapter will not slow down autofocus one bit....it does add more connection points regardless. Even a very minor or small lag can be a deal breaker in the wildlife space. I'll want to buy this new pro mirrorless body in a few years as it will be their fastest camera and an EVF along with a silent shutter are all major positives as far as I'm concerned. That said, the major drawback will be any loss of capability when using the adapter with the EF telephoto line. I can't imagine Canon would be releasing a full range of super telephoto RF glass by 2021. And if they do pull something like that off, they should've went toward that entire direction earlier rather than releasing recent EF updates to the 600mm and 400mm f/2.8 lenses...as well as an upcoming 1DX Mark III.


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## Photo Hack (Sep 6, 2019)

On the topic of dual cards, what is the latest workflow for onsite backup? I haven’t had to do that since the glory days of the 6D release when we had four of those in our studio. 

Seriously considering selling all of our 5D Mark IVs and going to R since the price of grey market is in the toilet right now and I want to move to single body shooting events with 28-70 & 70-200 and use our RPs for backup. Could sell all our primes and really simplify our day. Also doing more video than ever. 

I’m betting we see under $1,500 for an R around Black Friday. They’re already around $1,530 right now. 

Message me if you do onsite backup for weddings and fast paced events. Don’t want to stink up the thread with more Dual Card slot debate. Thanks.


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## GoldWing (Sep 6, 2019)

reef58 said:


> I guess that is good and all if you want a Sony. I have no desire for one, so not too slow for me. I want the DSLR version though 1dx3.


1DX MKIII - so many are waiting for it. Can't wait to see the specs. At least 5 people I know personally have money in hand and ready to go. This is very exciting.


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## robinlee (Sep 6, 2019)

Too Much, Too Little, Too Late to try again with you
We're in the middle of ending something that we knew


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## 6degrees (Sep 6, 2019)

For majority, we do not need $5000 body. We need Sony a7rIV equivalent.

We do need F1.2 L lenses.


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## GoldWing (Sep 6, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Take your time Canon and get it right. The R is an excellent camera and a fine companion to the 5D. In the meantime, give people the high resolution version for those who want that. Give us the 1DxIII with better autofocus and slightly more resolution.
> 
> Decide what you want to do about the 7D user base (migrate to a RF mount or give them the DSLR they really want). The longer it takes, the better it all will be and the more time my wallet has to recover.


1DXMKIII should be sickkkkkk


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## [email protected] (Sep 6, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Looking forward to this Canon - do battle Royale against Sony.


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## Trey T (Sep 6, 2019)

Hopefully, the body will be in a compact form, not in a massive body like 1D.


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## LensFungus (Sep 6, 2019)

6degrees said:


> For majority, we do not need $5000 body. We need Sony a7rIV equivalent.
> 
> We do need F1.2 L lenses.


We need money.


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## Lee Jay (Sep 6, 2019)

It's the viewfinder, stupid!

Canon said they wouldn't produce a mirrorless camera until the viewfinder could be made as good as the optical viewfinder in a dSLR. Then they produced the R with a viewfinder that's not even as good as its contemporaries, much less the huge leap to an optical viewfinder.

Here's what I suggest:

Sensor: full-frame with pixels small enough for 8k at 1.6-crop. Yes, I know this is 39MP at 1.6-crop and 100MP at full-frame.

Read the sensor 4 pixel blocks at a time, convert those to RGB and send them to the microdisplay in the EVF. You'll have to do skipping depending on the field-of-view selected. Output directly to the display as you sample (and apply necessary curves/WB, etc.). Do this at 500fps to a 4k OLED microdisplay. Adjust the display's brightness to match the brightness of the outside world, which will require a total global dynamic range of the display of about 30 stops.

Put in a battery the size of a truck to give 3 hours of viewfinder use plus 2,000 shots minimum, all while running an IS lens.


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## HikeBike (Sep 6, 2019)

AccipiterQ said:


> After the past couple of months I actually started saying that I think Canon is going to wind down commitment to nature photographers. The fact that their best offering right now is the 5 year old 7Dii, I don't think that's a leap. I'm not sure what advantages a 7Dii has over an a6500 at this point, especially now that Sony is putting out 600mm lenses. I was REALLY hoping for something, but Canon's silence speaks volume. No APS-C mirrorless, no replacement for the 7Dii, no pro-body R for at least 2 years...If the prototype pro-body R is already out, that means the specs on it aren't going to change a TON. Which means once again we'll be getting old tech compared to what Sony & Nikon shooters get. Really starting to regret all the Canon glass I bought.


I'm kinda thinking you're right, at least for the time being. I suspect, after Canon rolls out the 5D and 1D equivalent R bodies, they will turn their attention to a 7D equivalent R body. APS-C sensor, high frame rate, mirrorless. At least, here's hoping. I realize if that's correct, that's a long damn wait.

As far as new tech goes, I think we will get a pretty good idea of how aggressively Canon wants to play catch-up to Sony when we see the high-res R body announced. With some of the info out there indicating that Canon wants in on the spec wars, and their rather impressive firmware updates to the R line, I think they're feeling the pressure. A lot of their focus (no pun intended) has obviously been on RF glass as of late, and all the reviews I've read on those lenses have been nothing short of stellar. If they can manage to develop more advanced bodies to match that glass...damn. They'll be sitting pretty. Only time will tell...


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 6, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> On the topic of dual cards, what is the latest workflow for onsite backup? I haven’t had to do that since the glory days of the 6D release when we had four of those in our studio.
> 
> Seriously considering selling all of our 5D Mark IVs and going to R since the price of grey market is in the toilet right now and I want to move to single body shooting events with 28-70 & 70-200 and use our RPs for backup. Could sell all our primes and really simplify our day. Also doing more video than ever.
> 
> ...


I would seriously consider not switching from the 5D IV to the EOS R. The EOS R has limitations that the 5D MKIV simply doesnt have. Aside from the one card slot it has infuriating aspects like the pointless touch bar, the touch screen that moves the focus point if your nose touches. The lack of finesse when placing focus points (tons better using the toggle switch). Why Canon went also with the cheaper remote connection is beyond me. Do get me wrong its lighter, the pictures look great but its definitely not a professional camera in the same league as the 5D series. 
On the plus side the RF lenses Ive used are better than their EF counterparts.


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## HikeBike (Sep 6, 2019)

JGalicki said:


> I'm a wildlife shooter and recently invested in Canon's new 600mm mark III. It's light, incredible and works well with my 1DX II and 5D Mark IV. That said, I'm worried how this lens, along with the rest of my EF lineup, will interact with the new mirrorless bodies. I don't have the EOS R as it was too slow for my needs, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the adapter will not slow down autofocus one bit....


I can tell you, Canon did a fantastic job with the EF-RF adapters. I have experienced no negative performance effects while having EF glass attached to the R. None. Now, I'm no pro...but I would be very, very surprised if you experienced any issues with them.


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## YuengLinger (Sep 6, 2019)

HikeBike said:


> I can tell you, Canon did a fantastic job with the EF-RF adapters. I have experienced no negative performance effects while having EF glass attached to the R. None. Now, I'm no pro...but I would be very, very surprised if you experienced any issues with them.



It doesn't bother you that only R lenses can use "High Speed Display" to smooth tracking in the EVF? The option is grayed out when an EF lens is attached. What kind of shooting are you doing with your R?


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## koenkooi (Sep 6, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> It doesn't bother you that only R lenses can use "High Speed Display" to smooth tracking in the EVF? The option is grayed out when an EF lens is attached. What kind of shooting are you doing with your R?



It's also greys out if you enable anti-flicker


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## Photo Hack (Sep 6, 2019)

jeffa4444 said:


> I would seriously consider not switching from the 5D IV to the EOS R. The EOS R has limitations that the 5D MKIV simply doesnt have. Aside from the one card slot it has infuriating aspects like the pointless touch bar, the touch screen that moves the focus point if your nose touches. The lack of finesse when placing focus points (tons better using the toggle switch). Why Canon went also with the cheaper remote connection is beyond me. Do get me wrong its lighter, the pictures look great but its definitely not a professional camera in the same league as the 5D series.
> On the plus side the RF lenses Ive used are better than their EF counterparts.


Using the RP as a transition to mirrorless and it’s definitely different. Hoping to have more time this winter to play. 

I’ll probably get an R and a lens through Canon CPS and plan out a couple shoots. One thing to take a couple shots, another to put it through a whole day of shooting. 

Thanks for your input. I’ve heard similar criticisms from others.


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## HikeBike (Sep 6, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> It doesn't bother you that only R lenses can use "High Speed Display" to smooth tracking in the EVF? The option is grayed out when an EF lens is attached. What kind of shooting are you doing with your R?


It doesn't, because I rarely need it. I mainly shoot portraits and landscapes. However, in my mind, this is a limitation of the R's tech which can be corrected on future bodies...not the fault of the adapter / EF lens. Someone please correct me if I am misunderstanding the limitation.

I also haven't had any issue shooting the occasional airborne seagull at the beach, or my daughter running across the yard. And moving the camera back and forth rapidly has always seemed very smooth on both the EVF and rear panel displays. Very close to real-time. The only time I run into an issue is in low light...then things tend to get jittery...but this also applies to RF glass.


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## Canon1966 (Sep 6, 2019)

All I want is a Canon with Sony specs...not much to ask for...


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## richperson (Sep 6, 2019)

JGalicki said:


> I'm a wildlife shooter and recently invested in Canon's new 600mm mark III. It's light, incredible and works well with my 1DX II and 5D Mark IV. That said, I'm worried how this lens, along with the rest of my EF lineup, will interact with the new mirrorless bodies. I don't have the EOS R as it was too slow for my needs, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the adapter will not slow down autofocus one bit....it does add more connection points regardless. Even a very minor or small lag can be a deal breaker in the wildlife space. I'll want to buy this new pro mirrorless body in a few years as it will be their fastest camera and an EVF along with a silent shutter are all major positives as far as I'm concerned. That said, the major drawback will be any loss of capability when using the adapter with the EF telephoto line. I can't imagine Canon would be releasing a full range of super telephoto RF glass by 2021. And if they do pull something like that off, they should've went toward that entire direction earlier rather than releasing recent EF updates to the 600mm and 400mm f/2.8 lenses...as well as an upcoming 1DX Mark III.



I'm not really a wildlife shooter, unless you consider linebackers wildlife. But, I recently bought an EF 400mm f/2.8 and used it shooting theater on both my 1DXii and my R, and also took it to the zoo with my R attached for some "wildlife" shooting. I did not notice any issues with focussing whatsoever. Any limitations I have sensed with speed have been due to the limitations of the R body, not the adapter/lens. Having said that, I was extremely happy with my zoo pictures. Focus was amazing and detail on some birds was stellar.


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## richperson (Sep 6, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> It doesn't bother you that only R lenses can use "High Speed Display" to smooth tracking in the EVF? The option is grayed out when an EF lens is attached. What kind of shooting are you doing with your R?



I see this as a limitation of the R body, not the adapter or the lens. I have no doubt that if/when the put out the sports body, the EF long glass will work very well.


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## rjbray01 (Sep 6, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


I'm a hobbyist photographer

I have a 5D mark 4 and a whole slew of EF lenses : just about everything I could ever want.

I was initially really excited about moving to Mirrorless : mainly because it offered the chance to see my exposure (and depth of field ?) up front whilst adding image stabilization to my primes which would improve image quality when shooting family shots handheld indoors.

Initially, the main thing making me wait was that I wouldn't dream of moving until the EVF image was practically as good in terms of both resolution and latency as an OVF. 

It appears we have now got to that point with the new generation of 5MP viewfinders.

So now I'm asking myself : should I jump to a Sony A7R4 and use my lenses with an adaptor ? 

And every time I think about a Sony I come to the same conclusion : do I really want that tiny body to support my big heavy white lenses : won't it be too painful on my hands and wrists ? And, do I really want to spend £3,500 for the privilege of a horrendously uncomfortable grip ?

And so I wait, and wait. 

I try to remind myself that "delayed gratification" is good for my soul ...

And, if I can really wait long enough - like until about 2023 ... then it will probably be very good for my pocket too .. as it will probably be a couple of years after the first "mirrorless 5D" that the prices drop.

So, that's what I'm going to do, and I can't help thinking there must be lots more like me out there ...

Come on Canon !


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## djack41 (Sep 6, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Take your time Canon and get it right. The R is an excellent camera and a fine companion to the 5D. In the meantime, give people the high resolution version for those who want that. Give us the 1DxIII with better autofocus and slightly more resolution.
> 
> Decide what you want to do about the 7D user base (migrate to a RF mount or give them the DSLR they really want). The longer it takes, the better it all will be and the more time my wallet has to recover.


Yes Canon. Fiddle while your market burns.


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## WillT (Sep 6, 2019)

Maybe I am reading the Interim Report all wrong, but it seems that Canon sees the digital camera market as a loser and intends to invest their time and energy in other parts of their business.


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## jazzytune (Sep 6, 2019)

New member here, first post, and trying to catch up with all these rumors...
So I just read this rumor about the pro "1DX like" EOS R body wouldn't be available before 2021 and that made me think... Could it be because there will be another body that will come up in 2020, before the 1DX equivalent? Like a "5D Mark IV" equivalent with a better sensor and better video possibilities? The EOS R body that came up one year ago is like a 6D Mk II's equivalent in mirrorless, but with a 5D Mark IV sensor... Maybe Canon's strategy is to develop a more versatile camera that can be used by pros, before coming up with a 1DX equivalent flagship for mirrorless? Does this make sense at all?


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## HikeBike (Sep 6, 2019)

jazzytune said:


> New member here, first post, and trying to catch up with all these rumors...
> So I just read this rumor about the pro "1DX like" EOS R body wouldn't be available before 2021 and that made me think... Could it be because there will be another body that will come up in 2020, before the 1DX equivalent? Like a "5D Mark IV" equivalent with a better sensor and better video possibilities? The EOS R body that came up one year ago is like a 6D Mk II's equivalent in mirrorless, but with a 5D Mark IV sensor... Maybe Canon's strategy is to develop a more versatile camera that can be used by pros, before coming up with a 1DX equivalent flagship for mirrorless? Does this make sense at all?


Welcome! And yes, it does make sense. Rumor has it that a high-resolution R body is next to be announced...something like a 5Ds equivalent.


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## jazzytune (Sep 6, 2019)

Thanks HikeBike!


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## slclick (Sep 6, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Yes Canon. Fiddle while your market burns.


Market is the first part of marketshare.

Also a side note, Nero never played the fiddle during the fire and he paid for redev out of his own pocket thereafter. True, it depends whom you ask, Pliny the Elder or Tacitus.....

Still, Canon won't be changing their style because a few kids on a camera forum. Oh and dslr's? Not going anywhere soon. ML still suck too much, lol. Maybe one day they will be be on an even playing field. That would be sweet. I give it about until 2026.


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## flip314 (Sep 6, 2019)

richperson said:


> I'm not really a wildlife shooter, unless you consider linebackers wildlife. But, I recently bought an EF 400mm f/2.8 and used it shooting theater on both my 1DXii and my R, and also took it to the zoo with my R attached for some "wildlife" shooting. I did not notice any issues with focussing whatsoever. Any limitations I have sensed with speed have been due to the limitations of the R body, not the adapter/lens. Having said that, I was extremely happy with my zoo pictures. Focus was amazing and detail on some birds was stellar.



I can't even imagine trying to shoot at 400mm inside a zoo... Half the time I try to use my 70-300 I keep finding that 70mm isn't wide enough for half the shots I want.


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## bhf3737 (Sep 6, 2019)

JGalicki said:


> I'm a wildlife shooter and recently invested in Canon's new 600mm mark III.
> [...]
> That said, the major drawback will be any loss of capability when using the adapter with the EF telephoto line. I can't imagine Canon would be releasing a full range of super telephoto RF glass by 2021. And if they do pull something like that off, they should've went toward that entire direction earlier rather than releasing recent EF updates to the 600mm and 400mm f/2.8 lenses...as well as an upcoming 1DX Mark III.


I shoot birds as a hobby. My experience with long EF lenses (both zoom and primes) on R body with adapter has been excellent and they work even better than native RF zoom lenses. The focus is fast and snappy. The EOS-R camera itself may not have fast frame rate yet but I expect the high frame rate version or pro version can remove this issue. Using long EF lenses on R body with adapter is the least to worry about.


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## slclick (Sep 6, 2019)

flip314 said:


> I can't even imagine trying to shoot at 400mm inside a zoo... Half the time I try to use my 70-300 I keep finding that 70mm isn't wide enough for half the shots I want.


70-300L is the ultimate zoo lens!


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## Cryhavoc (Sep 6, 2019)

HikeBike said:


> I'm very interested to see the new bodies Canon releases, mainly because I'm a geek...but I think (I hope) my perfect camera will be the R Mk II, whenever that comes about. I mainly want IBIS added. In the meantime, I'm still amazed by the R. Then again, this is coming from a guy who upgraded from a T3i...so, yeah. Haha...



I got ya beat.
I went from using a T2i bought new in 2010 to purchasing the Eos R November 2018.
Looked at the A7 III and could not stand its body size and feel. 
Looked at the Nikon Z 6 and 7 and generally enjoyed they way they feel in the hand.

Ultimately it came down to staying with Canon and the vast array of EF lenses available on the secondary market.

While I wouldn't mind having 2 card slots, I have no interest in IBIS myself.


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## Cryhavoc (Sep 6, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> What was the mark iii incident?


reports from the field were that the camera was having auto focus issues in bright sunny days. Canon "fixed" the issue, but some users were still reporting the issue even after the redesign and fixes.


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## unfocused (Sep 6, 2019)

Wow! This is pretty crazy.



YuengLinger said:


> Until recently, I would have 100% agreed with you. But seeing Canon's financial statements this year, considering how the ILC industry as a whole is trying to find a significantly profitable direction, and _ feeling_ as if Canon is losing its commitment to the pro and prosumer customer base (admittedly due mostly to my impatience)...



More accurately, _entirely_ due to your impatience. You can_ feel_ any way you want but there is zero objective evidence that Canon is losing its commitment to the professional and "prosumer" (whatever that is) base. If you want to look at facts, everything about Canon's imaging division strategy and public statements regarding the same shows that they are concentrating on the professional and enthusiast markets.



YuengLinger said:


> I am beginning to _imagine_ a Canon that just spins off its EOS line to a Chinese or Indian company that would do who knows what with it.



You can imagine anything, including flying, rainbow colored unicorns. Actually, flying, rainbow colored unicorns are more likely than the scenario you are imagining.



YuengLinger said:


> Oh, yes, this is a huge LEAP of anxiety, but the release of the tepid R with spectacular lenses, the likely abandonment of any more EF innovation, and the slowing release schedule feed into it.



I'm going to ignore the silly use of "tepid" for now and if I have the strength and time, I'll address it in a subsequent post. But, let's unpack the rest of this statement. Canon has released spectacular RF lenses, they have a mature lens line that they have publicly committed to continuing to support and, at the enthusiast and professional level they are releasing new DSLR bodies at roughly the same pace they have historically followed, while also releasing new mirrorless bodies, all of this in a market that is contracting and you somehow define this as a "slowing" release schedule that you take as evidence that they are less committed to the most profitable sector of the photography market. 



YuengLinger said:


> And for those who dependably, furiously respond with great derision and indignation, please, remember...This is a RUMORS site!



What exactly does this being a RUMORS site have to do with your comments? Perhaps you are equating rumors with opinions? And, yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but if you are going to put out silly opinions mixed with paranoid, unfounded fears, you can expect people will respond with great derision.


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## unfocused (Sep 6, 2019)

WillT said:


> Maybe I am reading the Interim Report all wrong, but it seems that Canon sees the digital camera market as a loser and intends to invest their time and energy in other parts of their business.


You are reading it wrong.


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## unfocused (Sep 6, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Yes Canon. Fiddle while your market burns.


Would that be the market where Canon is the undeniably dominant brand?


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## marathonman (Sep 6, 2019)

jazzytune said:


> New member here, first post, and trying to catch up with all these rumors...
> So I just read this rumor about the pro "1DX like" EOS R body wouldn't be available before 2021 and that made me think... Could it be because there will be another body that will come up in 2020, before the 1DX equivalent? Like a "5D Mark IV" equivalent with a better sensor and better video possibilities? The EOS R body that came up one year ago is like a 6D Mk II's equivalent in mirrorless, but with a 5D Mark IV sensor... Maybe Canon's strategy is to develop a more versatile camera that can be used by pros, before coming up with a 1DX equivalent flagship for mirrorless? Does this make sense at all?


Personally, I feel if they plan to launch the 1DX ii replacement next year, then it's logical that they would wait a year before trying to pitch a mirrorless version of it to essentially the same audience / buyers. The plan must be to hope that a 1dX iii buyer will also buy the mirrorless version a year later as a back up body and a toe in to the mirrorless world....


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## HikeBike (Sep 6, 2019)

Cryhavoc said:


> I got ya beat.
> I went from using a T2i bought new in 2010 to purchasing the Eos R November 2018.
> Looked at the A7 III and could not stand its body size and feel.
> Looked at the Nikon Z 6 and 7 and generally enjoyed they way they feel in the hand.
> ...


Nice! But...it looks like you also have an 80D and a 1D Mk IV?


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## Cryhavoc (Sep 6, 2019)

question for the group as a whole...you ever go into a long standing brick and mortar camera store, one that deals alot in Canon gear, and strike up a conversation with a sales person? Establish a purchasing relationship with that sales rep and then ask them what their Canon rep's are telling them about what is coming down the pike?

Sometimes some good info is learned.


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## Cryhavoc (Sep 6, 2019)

HikeBike said:


> Nice! But...it looks like you also have an 80D and a 1D Mk IV?



I do, both purchased within the last few months.
I bought the 1d mkiv in May-2019 and the 80d in July 2019

We have a fantastic brick and mortar store nearby and they have a used section.
the 1d mk4 had 14k clicks on it and it looked like it was nearly factory fresh.

Previous to taking up Photography as a full time hobby, I had the T2i that my wife bought me as a wedding present.
That thing racked up alot of air miles from her dragging me around the planet. fast forward to last November, i was itching to get a new camera. Thus the Eos R was purchased over the Sony and Nikon offerings. The 1d iv and the 80d were spur of the moment purchases very recently due to their condition and super low cost. 

Someone asked me once why I bought the Eos R over the Sony and Nikon offerings.
To me it was simple. That T2i had logged soo many clicks, was dragged around the planet to all sorts of temperature and humidity extremes, and in the 8 plus years I used it, I never had a single issue with it. My daughter has it now and uses it alot as well.

That told me that Canon makes cameras that lasts and can take some everyday abuse, even their entry level consumer camera's like that T2i was.


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## AlanF (Sep 6, 2019)

richperson said:


> I'm not really a wildlife shooter, unless you consider linebackers wildlife. But, I recently bought an EF 400mm f/2.8 and used it shooting theater on both my 1DXii and my R, and also took it to the zoo with my R attached for some "wildlife" shooting. I did not notice any issues with focussing whatsoever. Any limitations I have sensed with speed have been due to the limitations of the R body, not the adapter/lens. Having said that, I was extremely happy with my zoo pictures. Focus was amazing and detail on some birds was stellar.


Shooting in a zoo is to wild life shooting like shooting in a waxworks museum is to shooting a football match.


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## richperson (Sep 6, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Shooting in a zoo is to wild life shooting like shooting in a waxworks museum is to shooting a football match.



I completely agree.


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## prodorshak (Sep 6, 2019)

slclick said:


> 70-300L is the ultimate zoo lens!


I love my 55-250 IS STM for Zootography.


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## HikeBike (Sep 6, 2019)

Cryhavoc said:


> I do, both purchased within the last few months.
> I bought the 1d mkiv in May-2019 and the 80d in July 2019
> 
> We have a fantastic brick and mortar store nearby and they have a used section.
> ...



That's awesome! I bought the T3i and a couple lenses shortly before I got married, because I wanted a real camera to take on our honeymoon. Ended up keeping that camera for a long time, even though I hated its low-light performance. I just couldn't get a decent picture indoors without having all the lights on or using a flash. Then, in 2018, I started looking for a new body. I really wanted a 5D Mk IV, but I couldn't justify the price. So I was planning to get the 6D Mk II. Then, the R was announced. Waited for some reviews...bought it...and have been in love ever since. Indoor shots are a breeze now. ISO performance is so far beyond the T3i, I don't even know how to compare the two.

Which leads me to a question I have for you. I've wondered if the indoor shooting problem I experienced with my T3i was due to the sensor's general capabilities, or the sensor size (APS-C). Since you have an 80D, have you been able to take better indoor shots with that, over your T2i?


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## AlanF (Sep 6, 2019)

prodorshak said:


> I love my 55-250 IS STM for Zootography.


The 55-250mm on the 90D will have the reach of a 100-400mm on an R or 500mm on a 1DX. It's a gem of a lens for the price.


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## JGalicki (Sep 6, 2019)

bhf3737 said:


> I shoot birds as a hobby. My experience with long EF lenses (both zoom and primes) on R body with adapter has been excellent and they work even better than native RF zoom lenses. The focus is fast and snappy. The EOS-R camera itself may not have fast frame rate yet but I expect the high frame rate version or pro version can remove this issue. Using long EF lenses on R body with adapter is the least to worry about.


That's very good news to hear!


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## privatebydesign (Sep 6, 2019)

Canon1966 said:


> All I want is a Canon with Sony specs...not much to ask for...


No, with a comment like that with no backstory of how the limited feature set of your Canon is hold you back you are trolling. Buy a Sony tape over the name and write Canon on it with a sharpie, apparently that is all you have to do for bulls!t to become 'truth'.


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## reef58 (Sep 6, 2019)

Canon1966 said:


> All I want is a Canon with Sony specs...not much to ask for...



Do you really want Sony specs or a select few? Because if you want Sony specs why not buy Sony? There must be something Canon has that Sony doesn't holding you back.

EDIT: Private beat me to it. Bottom line there are no perfect cameras. I prefer the compromises you have to endure with Canon.


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## prodorshak (Sep 6, 2019)

AlanF said:


> The 55-250mm on the 90D will have the reach of a 100-400mm on an R or 500mm on a 1DX. It's a gem of a lens for the price.


Will buy 90D this December.


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## prodorshak (Sep 6, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> No, with a comment like that with no backstory of how the limited feature set of your Canon is hold you back you are trolling. Buy a Sony tape over the name and write Canon on it with a sharpie, apparently that is all you have to do for bulls!t to become 'truth'.


# sharpiegate


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## LensFungus (Sep 6, 2019)

reef58 said:


> Because if you want Sony specs why not buy Sony? There must be something Canon has that Sony doesn't holding you back.


It's called love.

And if you buy full-frame you will get it in 24p!


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## juststeve (Sep 6, 2019)

A possible strategy for Canon introducing new bodies in time for the Tokyo Olympics is to concentrate on an RF version of the 5Div, upgraded to 2020 standards. This would entail a 40-50 MP with performance similar to the M6ii and 90D and say 10 FPS. IBIS or not, makes no difference to me personally but it could be a useful feature for the harried professional in a crowded arena. 

A camera like this could be paired with the 1DXiii for photographers at the Olympics as the second camera and teamed with the RF Trinity lenses. If not much bigger than the current R this could be the star of the show. Nikon already has something similar going with either the Z6 or Z7 and their trinity lenses paired with the D6.

All of those people working the Olympics are going to be carrying a big lens with at long telephoto and a 1DXiii or D6, or the older versions, and a second body and possible a third with trinity lenses. The weight and size reduction to RF or Z camera sizes would be greatly appreaciated by those working the events. High performance focus systems (eyes) would be too.

And once the Olympics are done a camera of this nature could find a home in many a wedding, event, news, and advanced hobbyist photographer's bag.


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## LensFungus (Sep 6, 2019)

prodorshak said:


> Will buy 90D this December.


The only reason to buy the 90D in December is if you were in a coma on Black Friday.


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## prodorshak (Sep 6, 2019)

LensFungus said:


> The only reason to buy the 90D in December is if you were in a coma on Black Friday.


Yes I will be.. looking at the money at .


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## Cryhavoc (Sep 6, 2019)

HikeBike said:


> That's awesome! I bought the T3i and a couple lenses shortly before I got married, because I wanted a real camera to take on our honeymoon. Ended up keeping that camera for a long time, even though I hated its low-light performance. I just couldn't get a decent picture indoors without having all the lights on or using a flash. Then, in 2018, I started looking for a new body. I really wanted a 5D Mk IV, but I couldn't justify the price. So I was planning to get the 6D Mk II. Then, the R was announced. Waited for some reviews...bought it...and have been in love ever since. Indoor shots are a breeze now. ISO performance is so far beyond the T3i, I don't even know how to compare the two.
> 
> Which leads me to a question I have for you. I've wondered if the indoor shooting problem I experienced with my T3i was due to the sensor's general capabilities, or the sensor size (APS-C). Since you have an 80D, have you been able to take better indoor shots with that, over your T2i?



I think your issues may have had something to do with the lenses you may have been using. If using the standard kit lens, they were not the best for dim lighting situations. I had purchased the Sigma 24-70 f2.8 for my T2i and I don't recall low light issues much, but then again, I did equip it with a 430 EX II flash as needed.

With my 80, I tend to use a sigma 35mm F 1.4 Art and an older Sigma DG EX 50mm F1.4 with it and low light is fine.
Having said that, if I mess around with my Sigma 100-400 f 5-6.3 C lens in low light, its baaaad on the 80d. Iso begs for mercy.

Its a given though that a full size sensor will have better low light capabilities, in general, than a crop sensor.


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## Photo Hack (Sep 6, 2019)

A lot of you guys who enjoy pooping all over everyone else aren’t any better than the trolls or *gasp* people who don’t cite empirical evidence for every opinion, thought or claim. 

I’m embarrassed myself to have done the same a few times on here. But I’ve noticed some you just scan every thread looking for easy targets to crap all over and bait into a debate. 

This is a rumors website. Absolute facts and evidence aren’t exactly the staple of a rumor.


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## mpb001 (Sep 6, 2019)

Its looking like the M6 II with 32 MP and 14 fps might be a good alternative to waiting for the Rx...haha


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## HikeBike (Sep 6, 2019)

Cryhavoc said:


> I think your issues may have had something to do with the lenses you may have been using. If using the standard kit lens, they were not the best for dim lighting situations. I had purchased the Sigma 24-70 f2.8 for my T2i and I don't recall low light issues much, but then again, I did equip it with a 430 EX II flash as needed.
> 
> With my 80, I tend to use a sigma 35mm F 1.4 Art and an older Sigma DG EX 50mm F1.4 with it and low light is fine.
> Having said that, if I mess around with my Sigma 100-400 f 5-6.3 C lens in low light, its baaaad on the 80d. Iso begs for mercy.
> ...



OK, good to know. Thanks for the input. Main reason I wanted to switch to full-frame was for low light.

I don't think it was the lenses, because I quickly learned the kits lenses suck. Using a nifty fifty in low light at f/1.8 and ISO 800 gave me okay shots...if not a bit grainy. 24mm f/2.8 and 60mm f/2.8...same deal, but 1-1/3 stop worse. I'd say maybe it was my methods, but...going past ISO 800 made images total crap, and I primarily shot in aperature priority, leaving the shutter speed up to the camera. Not sure what else I could have done. Attach a flash, and boom...beautiful shots. With the R...pssh...I can take a shot at F/4, ISO 6400 indoors with one lamp on, and it's gorgeous.


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## BeenThere (Sep 6, 2019)

Now that low expectations have been set, we will be thrilled if Canon beats the 2021 date by 6 months. A marketing tactic.


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## Mikehit (Sep 6, 2019)

marathonman said:


> Personally, I feel if they plan to launch the 1DX ii replacement next year, then it's logical that they would wait a year before trying to pitch a mirrorless version of it to essentially the same audience / buyers. The plan must be to hope that a 1dX iii buyer will also buy the mirrorless version a year later as a back up body and a toe in to the mirrorless world....



I think that makes sense. Even Sony with all their advances in sensor design have not yet brought out a camera that has professionals changing in large numbers which suggests that mirrorless still has issues at some level. I am finding it difficult to believe that Canon would bring out a 'mirrorless 1Dx' with the proviso 'this is the advance you have been waiting for but it will not perform as well as your 5 year old 1Dx2'.
However, a 1Dx3 DSLR would have pros upgrading pretty quickly and, as you say, launching the mirrorless version as a back up with specific mirrorless-based advantages of its own.


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## digigal (Sep 6, 2019)

rjbray01 said:


> I'm a hobbyist photographer
> 
> I have a 5D mark 4 and a whole slew of EF lenses : just about everything I could ever want.
> 
> ...


Lucky most of you still have the time. I'm in my mid 70's and leaving in a few wks for my 5th and last trip to Antarctica because some places are just getting to hard on my old joints and I'm running out of time waiting for Canon to come through. We have multiple trips planned over the next 2 yrs for wildlife photography and I'm getting tired of traveling with increasing numbers of people who where Canon shooters that are now either Canon/Sony or Sony shooters and beginning to kick my 7DMII butt. I was always able to hold my own with the 7DMII/100-400 II against the 500/1DMI or II in good light, but with Sony no, plus the files are a lot cleaner. Yes, the support and ergonomics are terrible as is the UI, but enough people who I know are working around/with that (These are professionals, who support themselves with their photography and they are now using their Canons more as backup because of the durability and support in case the Sony craps out!). I guess that is my best option at this point is to think about adding a Sony to my stable of increasingly expanding camera bag and continue waiting for Canon. After all, it looks like the R that I just bought is no better weather protected than a Sony anyway!
Catherine


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## jdavidse (Sep 6, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Seems a little like people aren’t reading this carefully. It doesn’t say that we have to wait that long for the R version of the 5DS or 5DIV replacement. It says 1DX equivalent. Which means that we will likely be shooting with a pro R long before 2021. (Early next year according to rumors) Just not one shaped like a square


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## BrightTiger (Sep 6, 2019)

OMG...Canon is turning in Kodak. Heck, Canon, why not just add a Polaroid module. Or bellows adapter from the 1880s. Or does Casey of Camera Conspiracies have blackmail photos of you and making create content material for him? Or do you hate Dave McKeegan enough to burst an artery in his head? WHAT. ARE. YOU. DOING.


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## marathonman (Sep 6, 2019)

digigal said:


> Lucky most of you still have the time. I'm in my mid 70's and leaving in a few wks for my 5th and last trip to Antarctica because some places are just getting to hard on my old joints and I'm running out of time waiting for Canon to come through......
> Catherine



Catherine - mid 70s is still young and plenty of time to see Canon "kick-ass" with a 1DX mkiii equivalent mirrorless camera. 
Also, there is other good news related to your passion for photography and traveling: "our findings suggest that having hobbies and PIL may extend not only longevity, but also healthy life expectancy among community-dwelling older adults." 








Relationship of Having Hobbies and a Purpose in Life With Mortality, Activities of Daily Living, and Instrumental Activities of Daily Living Among Community-Dwelling Elderly Adults


This study’s aim was to clarify the relationship of having hobbies and a purpose in life (PIL; in Japanese, ikigai) with mortality and a decline in the activities of daily living (ADL) and instrumental ADL (IADL) among the community-dwelling elderly.Prospective ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





So, keep traveling and racking up the shutter count


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## richperson (Sep 6, 2019)

jdavidse said:


> Seems a little like people aren’t reading this carefully. It doesn’t say that we have to wait that long for the R version of the 5DS or 5DIV replacement. It says 1DX equivalent. Which means that we will likely be shooting with a pro R long before 2021. (Early next year according to rumors) Just not one shaped like a square



I can't say for others, but the existing R is close enough to a 5D for what I use that body for. I really wanted the 1D version to come out and kick some Sony butt, but....


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## Jonathan Thill (Sep 6, 2019)

JGalicki said:


> I'm a wildlife shooter and recently invested in Canon's new 600mm mark III. It's light, incredible and works well with my 1DX II and 5D Mark IV. That said, I'm worried how this lens, along with the rest of my EF lineup, will interact with the new mirrorless bodies. I don't have the EOS R as it was too slow for my needs, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the adapter will not slow down autofocus one bit....it does add more connection points regardless. Even a very minor or small lag can be a deal breaker in the wildlife space. I'll want to buy this new pro mirrorless body in a few years as it will be their fastest camera and an EVF along with a silent shutter are all major positives as far as I'm concerned. That said, the major drawback will be any loss of capability when using the adapter with the EF telephoto line. I can't imagine Canon would be releasing a full range of super telephoto RF glass by 2021. And if they do pull something like that off, they should've went toward that entire direction earlier rather than releasing recent EF updates to the 600mm and 400mm f/2.8 lenses...as well as an upcoming 1DX Mark III.



One thing I have really liked about the RF to EF Adaptor on my R and RP is when using my 1.4 Extender I still have access to all the auto focus points in the R and RP, I have read that with the 5D IV you were limited to a single auto focus point. Using the internal 1.6 crop on the R and the 1.4 extender on my 100-400 gave me some great results from Airshows this year. Just need a little faster shutter speed and I will be happy.


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## vjlex (Sep 7, 2019)

I'm not actually on the market for a 1DX2 mirrorless successor, but I can only hope this doesn't impact in any way an earlier release of a 5D4 mirrorless successor.


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## BroncosFan (Sep 7, 2019)

The camera will have 2 year old tech by then if not worse and a quarter of their customers will have jumped ship.


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## YuengLinger (Sep 7, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Wow! This is pretty crazy...
> 
> 
> You can imagine anything, including flying, rainbow colored unicorns. Actually, flying, rainbow colored unicorns are more likely than the scenario you are imagining...
> ...



Thank you for proving my point about the typical responses of a handful of zealots who cannot stand to have their camera's manufacturer criticized, who make it a mission to immediately quash grumbling among the troops.

And what is the ongoing fascination among the crusader crowd with rainbows and unicorns? 

Canon should, if they could, indicate they do have a roadmap now that they have to stopped improving and developing dSLR's while introducing, yes, a tepid first attempt at a mirrorless FF. Why should they? Because customers invested in EF glass are, to an extent, tied to the company, and feel frustrated that RF glass only works on an awkward, mediocre body at this time.

I know that Canon doesn't care what a handful of "forum kids" are saying. But this is a great forum for expressing concerns, sharing tips, and discussing rumors--good and bad--about the state and direction of the industry. Great even when we are being called paranoid, dimwitted trolls!

I've been a Canon customer since the late 1980's. I was happy and excited during the transition to digital, and never worried about the future of Canon or Nikon. (I was so ready to stop dealing with film!) What's happening this year isn't simply a communication difficulty or problem with not understanding Japanese corporate culture. I'm perceiving, and I don't believe I'm alone, a historically reliable company starting to flounder and question its mission. I think Nikon is also struggling, and Sony sees FF cameras as a way to stay relevant with a hip crowd that has disposable income, a way to promote the brand while Sony finds a way forward in today's chaotic tech market. (Heck, maybe they just got carried away marketing their sensors and now they are stuck with a camera division!)

Unfocused, if this aggravates you, if you don't understand why I'm concerned about whether gear I buy today will be supported five years from now, then you are optimistic, reading things differently, and hopefully correct! I'm glad that living in an age when great companies and industries are fading away doesn't disturb you as you make large purchase decisions.

I hope that Canon makes an announcement soon that pops my "crazy" bubble and lets everybody know that a pro level, durable, weatherproofed body will be coming out at a fairly specific time. But I don't think they know when one will be ready.


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## Photo Hack (Sep 7, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Thank you for proving my point about the typical responses of a handful of zealots who cannot stand to have their camera's manufacturer criticized, who make it a mission to immediately quash grumbling among the troops.
> 
> And what is the ongoing fascination among the crusader crowd with rainbows and unicorns?
> 
> ...


You’re not alone. A lot of us pros have aging gear we need to replace or upgrade. With other manufacturers upping the game in the hybrid realm and some of us moving towards video, we need to make smart decisions with the future of our businesses. 

That’s the entire reason I even visit this forum, to try and read the tea leaves before I drop a lot of money and time on gear that I’ll be married to during this supposed mirrorless revolution and shrinking camera market. 

The constant beatings by hobbyists telling me what features I need for my studio and should live without is annoying at best. Seriously get a life outside this forum.

I just updated my calendar and, just this month and the next two, we’re looking at over 100,000 clicks and a lot of hours of video coverage. Can’t wait for the snow to fly and get a break haha.


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## Cryhavoc (Sep 7, 2019)

Safe journeys to Antarctica. Make sure you bring your 7D mkII. Your mirrorless other brand camera will have issues in the extreme cold, especially with the evf and back screen.



digigal said:


> Lucky most of you still have the time. I'm in my mid 70's and leaving in a few wks for my 5th and last trip to Antarctica because some places are just getting to hard on my old joints and I'm running out of time waiting for Canon to come through. We have multiple trips planned over the next 2 yrs for wildlife photography and I'm getting tired of traveling with increasing numbers of people who where Canon shooters that are now either Canon/Sony or Sony shooters and beginning to kick my 7DMII butt. I was always able to hold my own with the 7DMII/100-400 II against the 500/1DMI or II in good light, but with Sony no, plus the files are a lot cleaner. Yes, the support and ergonomics are terrible as is the UI, but enough people who I know are working around/with that (These are professionals, who support themselves with their photography and they are now using their Canons more as backup because of the durability and support in case the Sony craps out!). I guess that is my best option at this point is to think about adding a Sony to my stable of increasingly expanding camera bag and continue waiting for Canon. After all, it looks like the R that I just bought is no better weather protected than a Sony anyway!
> Catherine


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## Jonathan Thill (Sep 7, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Canon should, if they could, indicate they do have a roadmap now that they have to stopped improving and developing dSLR's while introducing, yes, a tepid first attempt at a mirrorless FF. Why should they? Because customers invested in EF glass are, to an extent, tied to the company, and feel frustrated that RF glass only works on an *awkward, mediocre body at this time*.



I do not find the R or even the RP for that matter awkward or mediocre, why sully an otherwise reasonable post with negativity? Sorry this line really stood out at me and could have been so much better IMO if you would have simply said "only works on WHAT I FIND an awkward, mediocre body". Just my opinion. 

Canon is not likely to fade away. 

Canon is doing an excellent job of diversify their portfolio. Acquiring Axis Communications in 2015 was a major move into one of the fastest growing sectors in the world. I work for one of the companies trying to keep pace with Axis and I can tell you that is not an easy thing.

If Canon walks away from the consumer camera market it will only happen because they want to not because of what Sony\Nikon\Fuji is doing. I hope they never decide to do that cause competition is good for innovation. 

As a Canon shooter for the past 20 years I am glad Sony is pushing the industry I really like using my R and RP and I am not so sure they would be a good as they are without Sony.


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## Drcampbellicu (Sep 7, 2019)

AccipiterQ said:


> After the past couple of months I actually started saying that I think Canon is going to wind down commitment to nature photographers. The fact that their best offering right now is the 5 year old 7Dii, I don't think that's a leap. I'm not sure what advantages a 7Dii has over an a6500 at this point, especially now that Sony is putting out 600mm lenses. I was REALLY hoping for something, but Canon's silence speaks volume. No APS-C mirrorless, no replacement for the 7Dii, no pro-body R for at least 2 years...If the prototype pro-body R is already out, that means the specs on it aren't going to change a TON. Which means once again we'll be getting old tech compared to what Sony & Nikon shooters get. Really starting to regret all the Canon glass I bought.




The wedding photo guys seem to be in a different boat. My nature photo and scuba photo buds are all really confused by canon.

None of us see value from the R. We really feel overdue for a new camera. We have a lot of glass and hence think we should be very valuable customers but now some cynicism is sinking in. Maybe canon knows that we’re stuck since we have a lot of glass and will serve us last. I mean it’s really hard to leave canon when you have a bunch of L lenses.

But it’s sad to see the lack of innovation with the nature crew. Upgrades in speed, autofocus, ibis, dr, etc are all desired.
This isn’t studio photography. Innovation can really increase the number of keepers.


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## YuengLinger (Sep 7, 2019)

Ramage said:


> I do not find the R or even the RP for that matter awkward or mediocre, why sully an otherwise reasonable post with negativity? Sorry this line really stood out at me and could have been so much better IMO if you would have simply said "only works on WHAT I FIND an awkward, mediocre body". Just my opinion.
> 
> Canon is not likely to fade away.
> 
> ...



Fair point regarding my opinion of the R. I have not tried it. I base my opinion on reading and viewing everything I can find about the R, as I'm very eager to buy the new RF glass.

(My town has no camera shops. The big box stores here don't have the R in stock, only as a special order. It isn't in my nature to buy something with the intent of trying it, but it might be time to start. Yes, I could rent, but it also isn't in my nature to spend about 10% of the price of buying just to try it.)

I love my 5D IV and never hesitated a moment to buy it as an upgrade to my 5D III. Its many little improvements make it way better than its predecessor, way better than specs indicate.

I call the R awkward because it doesn't have a joystick, or a mechanical mode dial on top, and because I think the arrangement of the buttons on the back does not look comfortable. The touch strip seems to be either useless or difficult to use, based on my intuition (which is wrong often enough) and many long-term use reviews. On the other hand, people on this forum who actually own the R seem to enjoy using it.

"Mediocre" does seem a fair rating of it going by specs. And by its minimal weather sealing and middle of the road EVF performance. It has a single SD slot. It isn't very good for sports or other action. I stick by "mediocre."

Should I buy one now, while its $400 cheaper than when released? Try it with an open mind? As aggravated as I am that Canon seems to be pushing back release dates for something better, maybe I should just go ahead and get a body I don't want to use the lenses I do want.

Canon seems in no hurry to release a better ef 50mm 1.2, or an ef 24-70mm f/2.8 IS, etc. So, if I want the Rf glass, I have to buy what fits it now and hope, with fingers crossed, Canon remains as dependable as they have been for many decades. Which seems pretty reasonable too!


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## Tama Chan (Sep 7, 2019)

<<< We are also developing a converter that can join a mirrorless camera to an interchangeable lens for a single-lens reflex camera.>>>

Sorry to be a party chiller but there is a bit of lost in translation here. The original Japanese text says "Canon will pursue the development of converters to attach DSLR lenses to Mirrorless camera bodies"

Such converters are already available, but perhaps there will be new versions in the future?


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## Drcampbellicu (Sep 7, 2019)

HikeBike said:


> It doesn't, because I rarely need it. I mainly shoot portraits and landscapes. However, in my mind, this is a limitation of the R's tech which can be corrected on future bodies...not the fault of the adapter / EF lens. Someone please correct me if I am misunderstanding the limitation.
> 
> I also haven't had any issue shooting the occasional airborne seagull at the beach, or my daughter running across the yard. And moving the camera back and forth rapidly has always seemed very smooth on both the EVF and rear panel displays. Very close to real-time. The only time I run into an issue is in low light...then things tend to get jittery...but this also applies to RF glass.


I view the R as a good casual camera and not for anything demanding
I understand why some people love it
It’s basically the mirrorless Rebel

But it’s annoying when it’s discussed as anything high end.


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## unfocused (Sep 7, 2019)

Tama Chan said:


> <<< We are also developing a converter that can join a mirrorless camera to an interchangeable lens for a single-lens reflex camera.>>>
> 
> Sorry to be a party chiller but there is a bit of lost in translation here. The original Japanese text says "Canon will pursue the development of converters to attach DSLR lenses to Mirrorless camera bodies"
> 
> Such converters are already available, but perhaps there will be new versions in the future?


Thank you for clarifying. While this is still a confusing statement, I appreciate having a more accurate translation. It is probably too much to hope that Canon would be pursuing converters to attach Mirrorless _lenses_ to DSLR _bodies._ Something which, it has been pointed out by persons more knowledgeable than me, can be done, but requires lens elements in the converter, as opposed to the glass-free EF to R converters.


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## Drcampbellicu (Sep 7, 2019)

digigal said:


> Lucky most of you still have the time. I'm in my mid 70's and leaving in a few wks for my 5th and last trip to Antarctica because some places are just getting to hard on my old joints and I'm running out of time waiting for Canon to come through. We have multiple trips planned over the next 2 yrs for wildlife photography and I'm getting tired of traveling with increasing numbers of people who where Canon shooters that are now either Canon/Sony or Sony shooters and beginning to kick my 7DMII butt. I was always able to hold my own with the 7DMII/100-400 II against the 500/1DMI or II in good light, but with Sony no, plus the files are a lot cleaner. Yes, the support and ergonomics are terrible as is the UI, but enough people who I know are working around/with that (These are professionals, who support themselves with their photography and they are now using their Canons more as backup because of the durability and support in case the Sony craps out!). I guess that is my best option at this point is to think about adding a Sony to my stable of increasingly expanding camera bag and continue waiting for Canon. After all, it looks like the R that I just bought is no better weather protected than a Sony anyway!
> Catherine



I’m jealous of your travels
Enjoy Antarctica 
I am being stubbornly loyal to canon but am almost frightened to see what the new A9 will be like. 
Maybe I’ll keep my L lenses and 7d but just add a Sony body with one lens? 
Ugh don’t want to learn a new UI and worry about adding having 2 lens collections.

How would you pull that off?


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## analoggrotto (Sep 7, 2019)

This fits in perfectly with the professionals who hang on to their work horses. Nikon's up coming D6 is solid vindication of this. 

This by no means indicates that we wont get our high resolution 5D X equivalent sometime next year.


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## YuengLinger (Sep 7, 2019)

analoggrotto said:


> This fits in perfectly with the professionals who hang on to their work horses. Nikon's up coming D6 is solid vindication of this.
> 
> This by no means indicates that we wont get our high resolution 5D X equivalent sometime next year.


What timing! Just this morning ran into one of the top wedding photographers in our state, and she said her D750 "just has too many clicks to get serviced again. I'm holding out for the D6."


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## richperson (Sep 7, 2019)

Ramage said:


> I do not find the R or even the RP for that matter awkward or mediocre, why sully an otherwise reasonable post with negativity?



I carry my R along side my 1DXii and 7Dii often. It is certainly no less sturdy than the 7D--at least in any environment I have been in. Feels very solid, albeit a bit more compact. As I have said before, if I'm shooting anything other than sports its the first body out of the bag.


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## Diltiazem (Sep 7, 2019)

canonnews said:


> everything's pretty fuzzy really.
> 
> However, if you look at Canon's evolution of mirrorless in the last 12 months, they are getting closer to delivering a camera that would be in that category. They have managed to eek out 14 fps across 32MP. That's more than enough if they can get the full frame sensors working quickly enough to handle a 5D system. The AF is going to be dramatically improved in a few weeks for the R and RP. Good AF, fast processing is half the battle for a 5D styled camera.
> 
> ...



May be Canon's main obstacle at the moment is IBIS. May be Canon doesn't want to release a 5DV type mirrorless without IBIS. After all, reading the forums, it appears that Canon will be ******* if it doesn't have IBIS in its next FF mirrorless.


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## masterpix (Sep 7, 2019)

Nelu said:


> "Canon also mentions that they’re working on a converter/adapter to turn a mirrorless camera into a DSLR. "
> I would be more interested in an adapter that does it the other way around...


Well, the other way is called "live view" where the mirror is up and, in all aspects, the camera is mirrorless. However, I wonder how the optics will work in such a case, afterall, the main benefit of mirrorless is the ability to generate optics that can focus the image much closer to the rear of the lense, which allows much more felxinility in the optical design.


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## unfocused (Sep 7, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Fair point regarding my opinion of the R. I have not tried it. I base my opinion on reading and viewing everything I can find about the R, as I'm very eager to buy the new RF glass...
> 
> ...I call the R awkward because it doesn't have a joystick, or a mechanical mode dial on top, and because I think the arrangement of the buttons on the back does not look comfortable. The touch strip seems to be either useless or difficult to use, based on my intuition (which is wrong often enough) and many long-term use reviews...
> 
> ..."Mediocre" does seem a fair rating of it going by specs. And by its minimal weather sealing and middle of the road EVF performance. It has a single SD slot. It isn't very good for sports or other action. I stick by "mediocre."...



This is exactly why so many of us get frustrated. You admit that you posted out of ignorance, but when you were unable to rationally argue your points you chose name calling, rather than acknowledging your lack of knowledge. See your comment below:



YuengLinger said:


> Thank you for proving my point about the typical responses of a handful of zealots who cannot stand to have their camera's manufacturer criticized, who make it a mission to immediately quash grumbling among the troops.



Personally, and as I have posted many times, I am not anxious to buy RF glass. (Well, maybe the 15-35, but it's fairly low on my priority list right now). I own the 24-105 because I took advantage of a tremendous Canon Price Watch deal and, since this is my most used lens I wanted to try the RF version and have the convenience of not using an adapter and constantly switching the EF lens between the R and the 5D. 

With a mirrorless touch screen, joysticks are no longer needed. After just one day of test driving the R (rented before buying) I was happy to trade the touch screen for the joystick and every time I use the 5D, 1D or 7D I find myself wishing I had a touchscreen rather than a joystick. 

I actually had to look at the R to see what you are talking about regarding the mode dial. There is a simple button that says MODE on it. Easier to use than any dial and much easier than the 1D system for changing modes. Someone would have to be pretty stupid not to be able to figure that out. 

I don't know what you mean by "the buttons don't look comfortable." The AF On button isn't in the most convenient spot, but I hardly ever use it anyway, since focusing in servo using the touch screen is much easier and more accurate than a DSLR. 

Yeah, the multi-function bar isn't all that useful and definitely needs a few tweaks. I suspect most of the problems could be solved by a firmware revision, but honestly, nobody has to use the bar if they don't want to. You aren't giving up anything that a DSLR has by turning it off. 

I don't know what is mediocre about the R. I retails for $700 less than a 5DIV and, from personal experience, I would say that I get about 98% of the 5D performance for approximately 75% of the price. Plus, there are advantages that I can't get on the 5DIV or the 1D at any price (like the wonderful touch screen focus point selection, the massive increase in focus point coverage and never having to worry about AFMA).

I've never used another EVF, so I can't really declare whether the R is middle-of-the road or not, but since you've never used the R, I suspect you don't know either. Maybe it just sounded like a good thing to write or maybe you are just quoting some random reviewer. I know this, I thought I would hate the EVF, but I've found I actually like it quite well. Seeing the impact of exposure changes in real time is excellent. No more having to trust the DSLR's +/- exposure compensation markers and then checking the screen after the picture has been taken. In low light or difficult lighting situations (such as stage performances), being able to see what the exposure is going to look like and not having to guess is a real plus.

I guess "minimal" weather sealing is in the eyes of the beholder. Roger Cicala's teardown indicates very good weather sealing around buttons and knobs (the places that are the most vulnerable) and reliance on tightly fitting components for the body. I don't consider that "minimal" so much as a design and manufacturing change where today parts can be assembled to closer tolerances. Rubber seals might actually be less desirable than well fitting parts. I'm no manufacturing engineer so I'm not qualified to judge, but then I doubt if you are either. 

I know some people feel like a single card slot is a deal breaker. So be it. As for me, I consider it silly. But then, I only had one film slot for most of my life and I had a lot more failures from the film not catching on the take up spool than I will ever have from a bad card. 

Not sure what the basis is of your pronouncement that it isn't very good for sports or other action. Although I'm primarily a sports photographer, I've only tried some limited experiments with the R. I'm getting paid to bring back quality sports pictures and like most people who have to satisfy a client or employer, I'll stick with what I know, which is the 1Dx II and limit my experiments to times when I've already gotten what I need. But then, I''d say the same of the 5DIV. I've tried some sports and some birds in flight and have gotten both great shots and massive misses, so I'm still learning what is my fault and what are the camera's weaknesses. Still, Sports Illustrated photographer Peter Read Miller seemed pretty impressed. I think I will take his word over yours. 

So, I guess you can just label me a zealot if you want. But, at least I'm commenting out of actual experience instead of "feelings."


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## wyotex43n (Sep 7, 2019)

I want to know about a 7dmkII replacement and an R with dual card slots, Ibis (to take advantage of that F2 zoom) and a better sensor. Hopefully they come before a mirrorless 1dx.


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## deleteme (Sep 7, 2019)

chrisdeckard said:


> I have no need for a 1DX style camera. I need a pro feature version of a 5D Mark IV though. Dual card slots is a must. And it doesn't have to have stellar video, but it needs to be as good as the 5D4.


Add a card slot to the R and you are good then.


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## deleteme (Sep 7, 2019)

jeffa4444 said:


> I would seriously consider not switching from the 5D IV to the EOS R. The EOS R has limitations that the 5D MKIV simply doesnt have. Aside from the one card slot it has infuriating aspects like the pointless touch bar, the touch screen that moves the focus point if your nose touches. The lack of finesse when placing focus points (tons better using the toggle switch). Why Canon went also with the cheaper remote connection is beyond me. Do get me wrong its lighter, the pictures look great but its definitely not a professional camera in the same league as the 5D series.
> On the plus side the RF lenses Ive used are better than their EF counterparts.


For event photography the R beats hell out of the mk4. One can see in the dark with the EVF and AF is dead accurate. As for the touch screen, when set up properly one’s nose never shifts focus points.
The control ring is very useful for setting exposure comp or, in my case, aperture. Of course it can be configured in any number of ways which is the defining advantage of the body.
Silent shooting is also truly silent while the mk4 gets almost as quiet as a Nikon.
If you don’t like the touch bar don’t activate it.


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## Ozarker (Sep 7, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> I agree. 2021 seems long for releasing this. I realize that's only 16 months from now but I would have thought fall of 2020 with select photographers testing it at the Olympics next year.


The article does say they are presently in testing... so probably.


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## Ozarker (Sep 7, 2019)

proutprout said:


> Now it’s a very big question to invest in the lenses line, because they might actually not be able to get a pro-body out at all. I was enthousiastic and willing to wait a little, but it looks like u have to wait until they actually get a real camera out to see if it’s worth investing in the linup


They do have a real camera out, AvTvM. It is the R. BTW: I thought your mantra was always, "smaller and lighter".


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## Ozarker (Sep 7, 2019)

slclick said:


> Except it's the old guys who have patience.


Reminds me of the old joke about the Camel and Donkey in the desert.


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## Ozarker (Sep 7, 2019)

jazzytune said:


> New member here, first post, and trying to catch up with all these rumors...
> So I just read this rumor about the pro "1DX like" EOS R body wouldn't be available before 2021 and that made me think... Could it be because there will be another body that will come up in 2020, before the 1DX equivalent? Like a "5D Mark IV" equivalent with a better sensor and better video possibilities? The EOS R body that came up one year ago is like a 6D Mk II's equivalent in mirrorless, but with a 5D Mark IV sensor... Maybe Canon's strategy is to develop a more versatile camera that can be used by pros, before coming up with a 1DX equivalent flagship for mirrorless? Does this make sense at all?


Actually, the R is leaps and bounds beyond the 6D Mark II, and in many ways beyond the 5D Mark IV.

I think you are right. A very high megapixel (80+) is coming down the pike soon. Maybe 2020?


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## Ozarker (Sep 7, 2019)

slclick said:


> Market is the first part of marketshare.
> 
> Also a side note, Nero never played the fiddle during the fire and he paid for redev out of his own pocket thereafter. True, it depends whom you ask, Pliny the Elder or Tacitus.....
> 
> Still, Canon won't be changing their style because a few kids on a camera forum. Oh and dslr's? Not going anywhere soon. ML still suck too much, lol. Maybe one day they will be be on an even playing field. That would be sweet. I give it about until 2026.


And let's not forget the fiddle (violin) wasn't invented until the early 16th century. Nero died in 68 AD, if memory serves me correctly.


richperson said:


> I completely agree.


Unless one shoots beach bunnies. Wildlife at it's best.


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## Ozarker (Sep 7, 2019)

Normalnorm said:


> For event photography the R beats hell out of the mk4. One can see in the dark with the EVF and AF is dead accurate. As for the touch screen, when set up properly one’s nose never shifts focus points.
> The control ring is very useful for setting exposure comp or, in my case, aperture. Of course it can be configured in any number of ways which is the defining advantage of the body.
> Silent shooting is also truly silent while the mk4 gets almost as quiet as a Nikon.
> If you don’t like the touch bar don’t activate it.


Absolutely right. And the more I use it, the more I like it. That includes the Super L lenses. Really, those lenses should have two red rings or have Super L printed on them. If you are like me, I need to build the lens stable. The body is secondary. Glass, glass, glass.


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## digigal (Sep 7, 2019)

unfocused said:


> This is exactly why so many of us get frustrated. You admit that you posted out of ignorance, but when you were unable to rationally argue your points you chose name calling, rather than acknowledging your lack of knowledge. See your comment below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I use the 7DMII as my main camera (wildlife) and just retired my original one that had over 380 K clicks (rated for 200 K) even though it was still functioning without a problem and bought another one because I see nothing that Canon is currently offering that is equivalent or beats it. I bought the R thinking I could use it for a walkabout camera, landscape shots, low light shots, and "maybe" even wildlife since I originally started with the Rebel 350 and figured it couldn't be worse than that. Well, for me it is. It's just fine if you stick with wide angle lenses or any little light weight lens but if you go to the 70-200/2.8 or the 100-400 II there is no way you can handhold the lens, touch focus on the screen, back button focus and trip the shutter--you have to be an octopus! It's not a problem with the 24-105 lens and smaller. Also the touch sensor just is not accurate with a rapidly moving bird in the frame and the intelligent autofocus leaves something to be desired for rapidly moving subjects. No problem with still subjects. I find it to be a camera that does well in certain limited situations but general wildlife where there is a chance of movement is not one unless you want to risk the chance of missing the focus.
As far as weather sealing, a recent post this this forum from an R owner revealed water encroachment in the EVF after minimal shower exposure (compared to what his other equipment had experienced). He was shocked at how insignificant the exposure was that resulted in the damage (which thankfully was reversed by dehumidification treatment). My take away from Cicala's teardown was that Sony's not known for being very weather resistant and the R looks just like the Sony so don't think it's any better. My just retired 7DMKII warhorse had been to 7 continents, multiple times to Africa, the Andes, the Gobi, Kolihari and Namibian deserts, both the Arctic and Antarctic multiple times--and looked like it--but never missed a beat. It had only been in for general and sensor cleaning. I doubt I'll be able to say the same for the R after reading the recent reports. That's still not to say that I haven't taken some nice shots with it, it's just not as versatile for me as the 7DMKII
Catherine 
Recent trip to Farne IS for Puffins. First from the R; second from the 7DMKII:


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## raistmaj (Sep 7, 2019)

EOS R owner here.

I do not shoot Wildlife so I can't comment on that, but for landscape, portrait, street photography, events, the EOS R is doing incredibly well. I miss the dual card slot and the IBIS, for me those are the 2 important features that the camera is missing and for the price I got it months ago should have.

The RF glass is simply incredible and is by far the best of the mirrorless canon lineup. The 50mm 1.2 is billions time better than the old 1.2, the 85 1.2 is so much sharper than the EF and without aberrations, the 28-70 f2 is a beast, nearly no aberrations and sharp corner to corner... and you know what is missing here? IBIS, the camera has enough megapixels to get blurred images even with the classic double the aperture shutter speed rule.

To me, what I would like to see is:

 More resolution (at least reach the 50mpx mark)
 IBIS so I can handhold the 50/85/28-70 without bumping the ISO because I have to use fast shutter speed.
 Double card slot.
 Improved dynamic range (this hurts pretty badly on landscape or trying to recover some images). I really want to see the specs for the new high resolution sensor, if they keep the same dynamic range is going to be a serious issue for me, specially compared with Sony or Fuji on this aspect.

The comments about the evf, in my personal opinion, are bull****, the evf is fantastic and once you start using it you don't want to come back to ovf, for me, the only situation where I miss my 5dmkii viewfiender is on low light situations, there the evf really struggles where a normal ovf is not that bad.


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## bhf3737 (Sep 7, 2019)

Normalnorm said:


> If you don’t like the touch bar don’t activate it.


Opposite to some reviews I have found the touch bar very useful. I have set it to quickly switch among single/multi/zone focus points with just a swipe of thumb and it is very handy for wildlife photography. 



digigal said:


> It's just fine if you stick with wide angle lenses or any little light weight lens but if you go to the 70-200/2.8 or the 100-400 II there is no way you can handhold the lens, touch focus on the screen, back button focus and trip the shutter--you have to be an octopus!


As an EOS-R owner shooting wildlife, I cannot totally agree with this statement. I usually use EOS-R with 100-400 II and the monster Sigma 60-600 almost entirely handheld even in -30C with gloves. The touch focus has been accurate and responsive and operating the camera is not that different from 5DIV. I have medium size no octopus hands. In my opinion, the ergonomics of the EOS-R camera is not its shortcoming. Perhaps the rather slow frame rate is.


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## Otara (Sep 7, 2019)

Im similar, main thing with the R is more controls than needed, so takes a bit of time to decide what works best. I dont use the bar much but more because I tend to forget it, understand the octopus comment, as I have smallish hands for a guy. Like the horizontal af option, was great for fruit bats for instance. Like manual focus zoom, silent shutter etc, and with my vision, the help the EVF can give is great. So far no weatherproofing issues, but no major downpours either if Im honest - did OK in Fiji and rain though, in very high humidity.

There are tradeoffs, but for the price vs the IV when I got it, Ive been very happy with it. Wont complain about the AF update coming, but not expecting night and day either. Its no A9, but neither is it a rebel in my view.


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## motofotog (Sep 7, 2019)

No IBIS no dual card slot...... Canon is *******


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## motofotog (Sep 7, 2019)

bhf3737 said:


> Opposite to some reviews I have found the touch bar very useful. I have set it to quickly switch among single/multi/zone focus points with just a swipe of thumb and it is very handy for wildlife photography.
> 
> 
> As an EOS-R owner shooting wildlife, I cannot totally agree with this statement. I usually use EOS-R with 100-400 II and the monster Sigma 60-600 almost entirely handheld even in -30C with gloves. The touch focus has been accurate and responsive and operating the camera is not that different from 5DIV. I have medium size no octopus hands. In my opinion, the ergonomics of the EOS-R camera is not its shortcoming. Perhaps the rather slow frame rate is.


Just wanted to know if you have experience using EOS R with Canon 500f4L IS 1 lens( with or without converter), I am keen to know the AF performance of this combination.


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## YuengLinger (Sep 7, 2019)

Otara said:


> Im similar, main thing with the R is more controls than needed, so takes a bit of time to decide what works best. I dont use the bar much but more because I tend to forget it, understand the octopus comment, as I have smallish hands for a guy. Like the horizontal af option, was great for fruit bats for instance. Like manual focus zoom, silent shutter etc, and with my vision, the help the EVF can give is great. So far no weatherproofing issues, but no major downpours either if Im honest - did OK in Fiji and rain though, in very high humidity.
> 
> There are tradeoffs, but for the price vs the IV when I got it, Ive been very happy with it. Wont complain about the AF update coming, but not expecting night and day either. Its no A9, but neither is it a rebel in my view.


Do you wear glasses when using the camera? Does the diopter work just as well with evf as it does with ovf?


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## Otara (Sep 7, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Do you wear glasses when using the camera? Does the diopter after work just as well with evf as it does with ovf?



I have intraocular lenses (in my eyes), and my nightsight isnt great. I find the diopter adjustment works well with and without glasses for me, I usually use it without.

I have a 500 f4 II and it works well with it, not sure if that helps regarding the 1.


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## Ozarker (Sep 7, 2019)

raistmaj said:


> EOS R owner here.
> 
> I do not shoot Wildlife so I can't comment on that, but for landscape, portrait, street photography, events, the EOS R is doing incredibly well. I miss the dual card slot and the IBIS, for me those are the 2 important features that the camera is missing and for the price I got it months ago should have.
> 
> ...



I have also been impressed with the EVF. I love seeing the histogram in the EVF. IBIS is on the way. And the RF glass is simply sublime. For $2k USD the R is a steal, in my opinion. It really is. IBIS and a second card slot would have driven up the price. I set the camera for exposure simulation and have no complaints about it in low light.

It will be very interesting to see whether Canon releases any more super fast glass in 2020. The RF 28-70mm f/2L covers the short end for me just fine, though a possible super 35mm and the already out super 50 are very tempting. Glass is going to be my main focus for now as the R serves me just fine.


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## Del Paso (Sep 7, 2019)

unfocused said:


> This is exactly why so many of us get frustrated. You admit that you posted out of ignorance, but when you were unable to rationally argue your points you chose name calling, rather than acknowledging your lack of knowledge. See your comment below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more!


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## YuengLinger (Sep 7, 2019)

So nice when a gear forum is attended only by members who gather to sip tea and praise The Company.

Nicer still to have a gear forum like this one!


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## privatebydesign (Sep 7, 2019)

unfocused said:


> This is exactly why so many of us get frustrated. You admit that you posted out of ignorance, but when you were unable to rationally argue your points you chose name calling, rather than acknowledging your lack of knowledge. See your comment below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great back and forth.

My personal experiences seem to be counter to some users/owners but closer to the critics. I do not own the R or RP but I have now used both on multiple occasions at paying gigs, so a professional environment. I really like some aspects of the mirrorless design and enjoy using my M5 for casual use.

Very strong features I like when using the R:-
1: Touch drag focus. If you don't like it you haven't used it properly, I can't imagine trying to utilize that many focus points with a joystick!
2: The vastly expanded AF area, anybody that can't creatively use this feature is stuck in a 'Rule of Thirds' box of their own making, get out of it!
3: Silent operation. Once you have it and realize it is actually silent it can be enlightening and a game changer in and of itself, even if you don't shoot professionally having friends and family not switch to 'camera face' mode gets you the natural images you always wanted. If you are a landscape shooter it won't do anything for you, I agree.

Things I just don't yet like when using the R:-
1: Shooting dim events I found the focus lock and hit rate didn't compare to the 1DX MkII. The 1DX MkII AF is like a guided missile to focus in light I can barely compose in.
2: I didn't get on with the EVF because:-

I found it being brighter than the scene to be distracting and not a positive for exposure confirmation, rather a negative for this and the other reasons listed.
I personally found the DR of the EFV to be very disappointing. Maybe I'm not stating the technicality correctly but it seemed to me to have way too much contrast with blocked up shadows and no real detail.
I found the refresh rate/lag to be very distracting, If I panned across a scene the delay seemed eternal and the 'catch up' nauseating. It was worst in a dim venue where I had two widely spaced subjects and I switched constantly from one to the other, something I can do with OVF's for days, a couple of hours with an EVF and I just didn't want to do it.
3: Build quality. Unfair comparison maybe but that is the choice we currently have, the R doesn't even compare in robustness to the 5 series let alone the 1 series and again, it is not really a fair comparison but I don't understand going backwards that far and it makes the R, for me personally, unusable in a professional environment. If I am constantly worrying about the care of the camera I am distracted to the point of not doing my job well enough.


These were the biggest take aways for me personally shooting with what I had. For the most part I was using a 1DX MkII with an original 70-200 f2.8 L IS (a 15 year old lens) and an R with an RF 24-105 f4 L IS.

I can see the usefulness of EVF's and the features these cameras have, personally at this point in their development I see them as complimentary tools to a current OVF kit not a replacement. If I can take two cameras it will be an OVF and an EVF for the enhanced capabilities, if I can only take one camera it is the 1DX MkII every time, I know it will deliver.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 7, 2019)

raistmaj said:


> The RF glass is simply incredible and is by far the best of the mirrorless canon lineup. The 50mm 1.2 is billions time better than the old 1.2, the 85 1.2 is so much sharper than the EF and without aberrations, the 28-70 f2 is a beast, nearly no aberrations and sharp corner to corner.



At this stage I am past it. Who cares? If your images are dependent on the differences between the lens quality of EF glass and RF glass then you have a bigger issue. I have been very fortunate in being able to buy pretty much whatever glass I want/need, I couldn't see the utility/value in 'upgrading' my 24-70 f2.8 L MkI to the MkII despite the fact that I tried three different copies. The change made no difference to my income or the visual interest in my images.

My most used lens doing the photography I enjoy the most is the very modest EF 35 f2IS, I don't care if the RF 35 f1.8 is a bit faster or sharper because it won't change how compelling, or not, my images are.


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## Bob Howland (Sep 7, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Still, Sports Illustrated photographer Peter Read Miller seemed pretty impressed. I think I will take his word over yours.


OK, I took the bait and looked at his review of the R. He states right at the beginning that the R mount is larger than the EF mount. It isn't. It's the same diameter. My take is that it was a paid spokesman taking a swipe at Sony and I almost stopped watching. Other than that, the review was pretty good. He does mention that the R is only 5FPS which is slow. I had to laugh when he mentioned trying to get a shot of a baseball in contact with the bat. I have hundreds of shots trying to get just one. Maybe a 30FPS raw burst will help.

There was also a link to his discussion on lenses for sports, which was even better. He clearly likes the 7D2 for outdoor sports on a budget, especially with the 100-400. He recommends the 400 f/2.8 but that seems to be with the 1DX. I use a 300 f/2.8 L IS, 100-400 and Sigma 150-600S with a 7D but am seriously thinking of replacing it with a 90D. 32.5MP has gotten my attention.


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## Viggo (Sep 7, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> At this stage I am past it. Who cares? If your images are dependent on the differences between the lens quality of EF glass and RF glass then you have a bigger issue. I have been very fortunate in being able to buy pretty much whatever glass I want/need, I couldn't see the utility/value in 'upgrading' my 24-70 f2.8 L MkI to the MkII despite the fact that I tried three different copies. The change made no difference to my income or the visual interest in my images.
> 
> My most used lens doing the photography I enjoy the most is the very modest EF 35 f2IS, I don't care if the RF 35 f1.8 is a bit faster or sharper because it won't change how compelling, or not, my images are.


Not dependent on RF vs EF in general. But absolutely the RF50 and RF85 makes a huge difference compared to their EF counterpart. If one can’t see the differences, well...


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## canonnews (Sep 7, 2019)

Diltiazem said:


> May be Canon's main obstacle at the moment is IBIS. May be Canon doesn't want to release a 5DV type mirrorless without IBIS. After all, reading the forums, it appears that Canon will be ******* if it doesn't have IBIS in its next FF mirrorless.


it could very well be a hindrance.

as we've seen in the countless patents surrounding Canon's implementation of IBIS + IS integration there is a ton of considerations to it.

I don't think we've seen Canon work as hard as they are now on AF improvements via firmware as we are seeing with the RF series cameras. That also seems to have been used jointly with the EOS-M and EOS EF firmware bases as well, which the 90D and the M6 Mark II sport significantly advanced mirrorless based AF.

There's a logical but steady work flow from looking back to the 1DX Mark II forward on how Canon is progressing;

Canon is working on optimizing it's AF performance with both eyeAF and subject tracking and detection on DPAF sensors as we have seen with the EOS R/RP especially with this next firmware release. That's important - if not even hyper-critical to get done. Canon now can handle 14FPS *WITH* DPAF tracking. that's an insanely good performance increase. People should be looking at what the M6 Mark II can do and thinking. This is coming.

According to the noise levels recorded for the 90D there hasn't been a generational improvement over the current 24MP APS-C sensors, so I'm not sure we're seeing that much sensor advancement, it could very well be waiting for the 1DX Mark III to show Canon's latest and greatest sensor. Since this is what they did with the 1DX Mark II, it makes sense that the 1DX Mark III would kick things off. 1DX Mark II demonstrated the first full frame DPAF sensor with integrated slope ADC's running on a sensor produced by an entirely new sensor fab line (Canon moved from 500nm to 300nm).

For those that seem to always suggest that it will cost billions for canon to upgrade their fabs, they did it without anyone even knowing between the 1DX and the 1DX Mark II for their full frame sensors. They may even have been forced to do it again for the 1DX Mark III.

IMO, life would simpler for Canon if they could get their 180nm quad metal fabrication that they are currently using for APS-C sensors, working for full frame. But to be honest, Canon hasn't even discussed *how* they are making full frame sensors these days. Are they still doing three exposures to make the full surface area of the sensor, or have they reduced that down to 1 exposure (a stepper and other equipment have a maximum size, which is why APS-C and also APS-H came into being, because it was less than the maximum size that a stepper could expose).

This turned into a longer post than I originally wanted 

Summary. there are alot of moving parts to where Canon needs to get to, and it's only been 1 year since the RF mount came into being.


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## rbielefeld (Sep 7, 2019)

Drcampbellicu said:


> I’m jealous of your travels
> Enjoy Antarctica
> I am being stubbornly loyal to canon but am almost frightened to see what the new A9 will be like.
> Maybe I’ll keep my L lenses and 7d but just add a Sony body with one lens?
> ...


I am doing what you are thinking about doing. I have a 5DIV, 1DxII, and now a Sony a9. Canon glass adapts and works well with the a9 for what I do. Birds and Birds in Flight. I have done a lot of comparing between Sony 200-600mm, 400 2.8, 100-400mm and Canon 100-400 and 600 f/4 on the a9. The a9 paired with native lenses is very capable and better than my 1DxII in the AF and Tracking departments. With adapted glass it is not quite as good, but, again, it works for me. 

To me the a9 AF system and no blackout EVF really are class leading. I love being able to see the exposure through the viewfinder and how quite it is compared to my 1DxII, which at times does cause issues related to disturbing birds and other wildlife.

The a9II will be something to watch very closely to see what it brings to the table that the a9 does not. Canon will, within a couple of years, most likely, have a pro mirrorless to compete with the Sony a9, but for now, I am using the Sony a9 with adapted Canon glass and the Sony 200-600mm. I will keep my 1DxII and my Canon glass until I see what Canon offers in a pro mirrorless. I am confident it will be very good.


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## scyrene (Sep 7, 2019)

AccipiterQ said:


> After the past couple of months I actually started saying that I think Canon is going to wind down commitment to nature photographers.



It's only just a year since they released the 400 and 600 mark III lenses, I don't see that as winding down... Just because there are lulls in what they release doesn't mean we can discern any overarching pattern. I doubt very much a company that has made such a big deal of wildlife photography will just abandon the sector, even if the 7D3 never appears (and that is still uncertain).


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## privatebydesign (Sep 7, 2019)

Viggo said:


> Not dependent on RF vs EF in general. But absolutely the RF50 and RF85 makes a huge difference compared to their EF counterpart. If one can’t see the differences, well...


I think you are missing the point, you and I can see the difference, but in the scheme of things how more or less compelling are the respective images to the target market? I'd say your images pre and post RF are effectively the same, in the same way that you can see the difference between your Profoto and Broncolor images but nobody else can unless you point them out. The people that look at your images are much more impacted by the juxtaposition of the subject on the swing/climbing frame etc than if the corner of the image has less CA or fractionally more sharpness.

That doesn't mean you don't get more keepers with the RF, or enjoy using it more, my comment was purely directed at the point that we were well into incremental changes and that doesn't impact the actual content of images to any meaningful degree.


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## raistmaj (Sep 7, 2019)

I don't use the touch bar in the EOS R, I would prefer a Joystick but that doesn't mean other people don't find it useful. If you ask me, I would like it removed

About the RF - EF topic, as a photographer you have to study your composition/light/surroundings/etc to get the shot, sometimes you don't have that time to get a good shot, having a tool that allows me more extreme conditions (backlights, low light, more out of focus areas) knowing that I don't have to pay attention to those factors and still get high quality/contrast/sharpness that I can sell the print/image to a customer without expending hours in post is something important to consider. For amateur, beginner (or if you are not going to use it) I would never consider such expensive glass, I would love to have the 200-400 1.4, I have the money to get it, but I don't because I wouldn't use it, that doesn't mean I can't appreciate that is a superb lens and I can get results with that optic that it would be way harder with others.

As personal experience, I started with a 50mm EF 1.4, upgrading to the EF 1.2 was a bit of a disappointment as at the end I didn't get too much quality and the results, because of the aberrations and general softness, made me sell that lens as I was always stepping down to the same apertures of the EF 1.4, if I buy a fast lens I want to use that lens at those apertures, if the lens is not usable because of the quality, personally, is not worth, I'm my biggest critic so I would never sell to a customer any picture that I don't consider good from all points, composition, light, technical..., I would simply not show them the shot, I don't care if they like it or I like it, for me it must be perfect on every aspect..

Getting the RFs allowed me to take pictures that in the past I simply couldn't take because of the points I mention or I had to expend hours in photoshop to sharpen, remove aberrations and for me, that is really not worth, specially when you have to do this for hundreds of pictures. Personally, I know nobody that has tried these new lenses for more than s week, and has that opinion, their only comments are about how expensive they are and I have to agree with that.


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## tvb (Sep 7, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I personally found the DR of the EFV to be very disappointing. Maybe I'm not stating the technicality correctly but it seemed to me to have way too much contrast with blocked up shadows and no real detail.


It simulates chosen Picture Style. If you shoot RAW, you can choose less-contrasty style (or adjust contrast slider in the chosen style) to have a bit more shadow detail in EVF.


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## Viggo (Sep 7, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I think you are missing the point, you and I can see the difference, but in the scheme of things how more or less compelling are the respective images to the target market? I'd say your images pre and post RF are effectively the same, in the same way that you can see the difference between your Profoto and Broncolor images but nobody else can unless you point them out. The people that look at your images are much more impacted by the juxtaposition of the subject on the swing/climbing frame etc than if the corner of the image has less CA or fractionally more sharpness.
> 
> That doesn't mean you don't get more keepers with the RF, or enjoy using it more, my comment was purely directed at the point that we were well into incremental changes and that doesn't impact the actual content of images to any meaningful degree.


I can agree with that to a point indeed. I tend to forget some people shoot for other people, clients etc. Whenever I’m happy with a shot people sometimes like something I shot with my iPhone better. It’s quite insulting. JK


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## privatebydesign (Sep 7, 2019)

Or put another way, the EF 20-35 f2.8 was a dog of a lens, but it was the best we had. The 16-35's improved on that to the point that the MkIII is a very good lens, the 16-35 f4 IS is an amazingly good and cheap ultra wide and the 11-24 gave me a perspective I couldn't get with anything else at an IQ basically matching anything at equivalent focal lengths and apertures. So in EF I have the choice of f2.8's of very high quality, and f4's with unique focal length ranges or price points and with IS. What does an RF 15-35 f2.8 IS give me that I don't already have, a few more LPPMM? 

I don't care about a few more LPPMM, in my opinion the $2,500 is better spent on a workshop or travel, they will make a much bigger difference to my output.


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## Drcampbellicu (Sep 7, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> I am doing what you are thinking about doing. I have a 5DIV, 1DxII, and now a Sony a9. Canon glass adapts and works well with the a9 for what I do. Birds and Birds in Flight. I have done a lot of comparing between Sony 200-600mm, 400 2.8, 100-400mm and Canon 100-400 and 600 f/4 on the a9. The a9 paired with native lenses is very capable and better than my 1DxII in the AF and Tracking departments. With adapted glass it is not quite as good, but, again, it works for me.
> 
> To me the a9 AF system and no blackout EVF really are class leading. I love being able to see the exposure through the viewfinder and how quite it is compared to my 1DxII, which at times does cause issues related to disturbing birds and other wildlife.
> 
> The a9II will be something to watch very closely to see what it brings to the table that the a9 does not. Canon will, within a couple of years, most likely, have a pro mirrorless to compete with the Sony a9, but for now, I am using the Sony a9 with adapted Canon glass and the Sony 200-600mm. I will keep my 1DxII and my Canon glass until I see what Canon offers in a pro mirrorless. I am confident it will be very good.



This was helpful
Thank you
I might add a new body and just one lense If it sounds like canon won’t have anything new for me in a year


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## AlanF (Sep 7, 2019)

digigal said:


> I use the 7DMII as my main camera (wildlife) and just retired my original one that had over 380 K clicks (rated for 200 K) even though it was still functioning without a problem and bought another one because I see nothing that Canon is currently offering that is equivalent or beats it. I bought the R thinking I could use it for a walkabout camera, landscape shots, low light shots, and "maybe" even wildlife since I originally started with the Rebel 350 and figured it couldn't be worse than that. Well, for me it is. It's just fine if you stick with wide angle lenses or any little light weight lens but if you go to the 70-200/2.8 or the 100-400 II there is no way you can handhold the lens, touch focus on the screen, back button focus and trip the shutter--you have to be an octopus! It's not a problem with the 24-105 lens and smaller. Also the touch sensor just is not accurate with a rapidly moving bird in the frame and the intelligent autofocus leaves something to be desired for rapidly moving subjects. No problem with still subjects. I find it to be a camera that does well in certain limited situations but general wildlife where there is a chance of movement is not one unless you want to risk the chance of missing the focus.
> As far as weather sealing, a recent post this this forum from an R owner revealed water encroachment in the EVF after minimal shower exposure (compared to what his other equipment had experienced). He was shocked at how insignificant the exposure was that resulted in the damage (which thankfully was reversed by dehumidification treatment). My take away from Cicala's teardown was that Sony's not known for being very weather resistant and the R looks just like the Sony so don't think it's any better. My just retired 7DMKII warhorse had been to 7 continents, multiple times to Africa, the Andes, the Gobi, Kolihari and Namibian deserts, both the Arctic and Antarctic multiple times--and looked like it--but never missed a beat. It had only been in for general and sensor cleaning. I doubt I'll be able to say the same for the R after reading the recent reports. That's still not to say that I haven't taken some nice shots with it, it's just not as versatile for me as the 7DMKII
> Catherine
> Recent trip to Farne IS for Puffins. First from the R; second from the 7DMKII:


The R has lots of fine features and is clearly a competent camera giving fine results for many activities. But, I am cheesed off with R owners telling us how wonderful the EOS R is for wild life photography when it is clear that they haven't a clue about shooting wild life with long lenses and following birds and the requirements for real nature photography. There are too many reports about its inadequacies and even Neuro, who is no slouch, has posted how he can't use it for birds in flight. I am still getting good results from my ageing DSLR Canon gear and am looking forward to getting a 90D next week, which should give me great resolution on good, dry, days. But, when it comes to mirrorless, Sony is years ahead. The A9 II is going to be announced next month and is rumoured to have a 36 Mpx sensor to go with the best available mirrorless AF and proper weather resistance. Sony have also brought out the 200-600mm f/6.3, which is performing superbly on the A9 and the 6400.

An earlier post told Catherine in her mid 70s to wait for the 1DX mirrorless. Come off it! It will be a long wait and if it has the heft of the current 1DXs it won't be suitable for us oldies who are not only in a hurry but don't have the biceps of youngsters.


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## slclick (Sep 7, 2019)

Diltiazem said:


> May be Canon's main obstacle at the moment is IBIS. May be Canon doesn't want to release a 5DV type mirrorless without IBIS. After all, reading the forums, it appears that Canon will be ******* if it doesn't have IBIS in its next FF mirrorless.


Funny, it's not even in my top ten of what I want in a 5D level mirrorless body from Canon. The IS in the L lenses is top notch, I have never been left wanting.


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## Viggo (Sep 7, 2019)

Are we still comparing the R to the A9 ? *sigh*


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## AlanF (Sep 7, 2019)

Viggo said:


> Are we still comparing the R to the A9 ? *sigh*


Canon has nothing yet to compare to the A9, which is the issue of this thread. And there are those who are telling us that the R is a suitable wild-life camera, which it isn't and Canon isn't even marketing it as one.


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## slclick (Sep 7, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Canon has nothing yet to compare to the A9, which is the issue of this thread. And there are those who are telling us that the R is a suitable wild-life camera, which it isn't and Canon isn't even marketing it as one.


To me, the R is more like the 5D3 when it came out. Great general purpose but not a specialized body in one aspect or another. Good for portraits, not great, Decent for birding, not good however. Very good for macro, not quite excellent. Good to great for landscapes (in the right hands) still some shortcomings (AA filter a bit too strong).

This isn't the LOTR with 'One Camera Body to rule them all'.

Folks love to bitch and whine how Canon isn''t making the body specs they want at the pricepoint they are willing to pay...however, if you find one from another manufacturer, please buy it, enjoy it and delete the Canon Rumors website from your bookmarks.


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## juststeve (Sep 7, 2019)

I have not had that much trouble getting good to excellent wildlife results from the R using lenses from the 100-400 L IS ii to the 400/2.8 L IS and the 500/4 L IS ii, often with extenders both of necessity and curiosity. But then I started photographing wildlife using thumb drive cameras with manual focus and film. And I got salable results. So I say it is a usable wildlife photography camera. 

That said, would I like the guts of a Nikon 850 stuffed into an R body? Yes, I would. That would be my ultimate wildlife and landscape camera.


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## Joaquim (Sep 7, 2019)

HikeBike said:


> I agree it's smart to hold off buying any RF lenses until the R body you really want/need is released, but I have absolutely no doubt that Canon will succeed in making pro R bodies.


Hopefully you might even get some used RF glass options by then.


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## AlanF (Sep 7, 2019)

slclick said:


> ......
> Folks love to bitch and whine how Canon isn';t making the body specs they want at the pricepoint they are willing to pay...however, if you find one from another manufacturer, please buy it, enjoy it and delete the Canon Rumors website from your bookmarks.



Quite the reverse, if you are unable to take part in rational discussion and read views that are contrary to your own, it is for you to leave Canonrumors. It is discussion that leads to progress not putting on blinkers.


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## bhf3737 (Sep 7, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Canon has nothing yet to compare to the A9, which is the issue of this thread. And there are those who are telling us that the R is a suitable wild-life camera, which it isn't and Canon isn't even marketing it as one.


Suitability is subjective. In my opinion R is sutable for every photography genre but not great at anything. In that sense, I personally find that it is good for wild-life and for the fun of using it and for the quality level that I am happy with. I enjoy using and taking picture with it. That is what matters the most (to me).


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## Joaquim (Sep 7, 2019)

juststeve said:


> I have not had that much trouble getting good to excellent wildlife results from the R using lenses from the 100-400 L IS ii to the 400/2.8 L IS and the 500/4 L IS ii, often with extenders both of necessity and curiosity. But then I started photographing wildlife using thumb drive cameras with manual focus and film. And I got salable results. So I say it is a usable wildlife photography camera.
> 
> That said, would I like the guts of a Nikon 850 stuffed into an R body? Yes, I would. That would be my ultimate wildlife and landscape camera.


What's a thumbdrive camera?


----------



## Joaquim (Sep 7, 2019)

That


Lee Jay said:


> It's the viewfinder, stupid!
> 
> Canon said they wouldn't produce a mirrorless camera until the viewfinder could be made as good as the optical viewfinder in a dSLR. Then they produced the R with a viewfinder that's not even as good as its contemporaries, much less the huge leap to an optical viewfinder.
> 
> ...


That would cost a bomb then.


----------



## Joaquim (Sep 7, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Wow! This is pretty crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for this and I'm also quite disappointed at his comments about India. Some of the best manufacturing at scale happens in India. We have some major companies in the auto sector who manufacture their world market vehicles in India and just recently managed to have a pretty historic if not wholly successful second run (it's just a matter of time, even Sony didn't get it right with their mark i and mark ii bodies for the sake of an analogy) at getting a rover onto the south pole of the moon, the 4th country to do this (info to be updated upon newer data from our lunar orbitter) at a fraction of the cost it would have taken for NASA. It was actually cheaper than the cost of making "Interstellar." He needs to get his facts right before making such derogatory statements. Yes I may classify as another butt hurt individual online in 2019 but as a world citizen and an Indian, it is my duty to educate people whenever they are mistaken. Meant in all good intent.


----------



## YuengLinger (Sep 7, 2019)

slclick said:


> To me, the R is more like the 5D3 when it came out. Great general purpose but not a specialized body in one aspect or another. Good for portraits, not great, Decent for birding, not good however. Very good for macro, not quite excellent. Good to great for landscapes (in the right hands) still some shortcomings (AA filter a bit too strong).
> 
> This isn't the LOTR with 'One Camera Body to rule them all'.
> 
> Folks love to bitch and whine how Canon isn';t making the body specs they want at the pricepoint they are willing to pay...however, if you find one from another manufacturer, please buy it, enjoy it and delete the Canon Rumors website from your bookmarks.



Not sure why, if you don't want a pro mirrorless, you are chastising those of us who do. 

Do you really want only threads that are nothing but polite praise of Canon? Really?

It's great to be able to discuss critically. Sometimes I find that my concerns were overblown; sometimes I'm saved making a bad purchase by the lively discussion here.

I'm just believing a bad day led to telling people who don't consistently praise Canon to leave the forum.


----------



## Joaquim (Sep 7, 2019)

I


HikeBike said:


> That's awesome! I bought the T3i and a couple lenses shortly before I got married, because I wanted a real camera to take on our honeymoon. Ended up keeping that camera for a long time, even though I hated its low-light performance. I just couldn't get a decent picture indoors without having all the lights on or using a flash. Then, in 2018, I started looking for a new body. I really wanted a 5D Mk IV, but I couldn't justify the price. So I was planning to get the 6D Mk II. Then, the R was announced. Waited for some reviews...bought it...and have been in love ever since. Indoor shots are a breeze now. ISO performance is so far beyond the T3i, I don't even know how to compare the two.
> 
> Which leads me to a question I have for you. I've wondered if the indoor shooting problem I experienced with my T3i was due to the sensor's general capabilities, or the sensor size (APS-C). Since you have an 80D, have you been able to take better indoor shots with that, over your T2i?


I don't know the lenses you ha d bought but I would say they were a bigger factor in the low light performance of your T3i but there's a ton of stuff for us to learn in lighting anyway. Definitely a full frame sensor has advantages over a crop sensor in low light, but I'd bet good money that fast aperture primes would help you get great shots in low light even on a T3i.
Kudos on graduating to an R though. It's way more capable than a T3i.


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## YuengLinger (Sep 7, 2019)

Joaquim said:


> Thank you for this and I'm also a bit pissed off at his comments about India. Some of the best manufacturing at scale happens in India. We have some major companies in the auto sector who manufacture their world market vehicles in India and just recently managed to have a pretty historic if not wholly successful second run (it's just a matter of time, even Sony didn't get it right with their mark i and mark ii bodies for the sake of an analogy) at getting a rover onto the south pole of the moon, the 4th country to do this (info to be updated upon newer data from our lunar orbitter) at a fraction of the cost it would have taken for NASA. It was actually cheaper than the cost of making "Interstellar." Get your facts right before making such derogatory statements my friend.



No triggering intended. You took it wrong. I think the rising tech companies in China and India have the desire and purchasing power to buy the EOS division of Canon, and the labor forces to produce consistent quality. I mentioned two likely nations. 

My biggest concern with anybody buying Canon's EOS line would be customer service. Even Canon Japan might raise prices for repairs and make wait time longer. Having repairs done through Canon Professional Services is a key reason to remain a loyal Canon customer. If it were ever as hard to get a Canon serviced as other brands, all bets are off.

When companies buy other companies, cost cutting is one of the first steps.


----------



## Joaquim (Sep 7, 2019)

digigal said:


> Lucky most of you still have the time. I'm in my mid 70's and leaving in a few wks for my 5th and last trip to Antarctica because some places are just getting to hard on my old joints and I'm running out of time waiting for Canon to come through. We have multiple trips planned over the next 2 yrs for wildlife photography and I'm getting tired of traveling with increasing numbers of people who where Canon shooters that are now either Canon/Sony or Sony shooters and beginning to kick my 7DMII butt. I was always able to hold my own with the 7DMII/100-400 II against the 500/1DMI or II in good light, but with Sony no, plus the files are a lot cleaner. Yes, the support and ergonomics are terrible as is the UI, but enough people who I know are working around/with that (These are professionals, who support themselves with their photography and they are now using their Canons more as backup because of the durability and support in case the Sony craps out!). I guess that is my best option at this point is to think about adding a Sony to my stable of increasingly expanding camera bag and continue waiting for Canon. After all, it looks like the R that I just bought is no better weather protected than a Sony anyway!
> Catherine
> 
> Wow!! You're an inspiration! I hope I get to be as active as you when i'm 70.


----------



## slclick (Sep 7, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Not sure why, if you don't want a pro mirrorless, you are chastising those of us who do.
> 
> Do you really want only threads that are nothing but polite praise of Canon? Really?
> 
> ...


Wow. Seriously missed my point(s).I was just adding my two cents to where I believe the R lies in the Canon universe, how you took it personal is crazy beyond me. Once again, there was no post by you quoted, therefore you are not involved in this. Have a good day Sir.


----------



## analoggrotto (Sep 7, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> What timing! Just this morning ran into one of the top wedding photographers in our state, and she said her D750 "just has too many clicks to get serviced again. I'm holding out for the D6."


I think the hard core pros will hang on to their full body SLRs a bit longer, maybe the new A9II will change that?


----------



## unfocused (Sep 7, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Canon has nothing yet to compare to the A9, which is the issue of this thread. And there are those who are telling us that the R is a suitable wild-life camera, which it isn't and Canon isn't even marketing it as one.



I thought the subject of this thread was "Canon to announce EOS-1D X equivalent EOS R system camera in 2021?"

Suitable is in the eyes of the user. There have been a few people in this thread who said they have good luck using the R for wildlife. I have no reason to doubt them.


----------



## YuengLinger (Sep 7, 2019)

slclick said:


> Wow. Seriously missed my point(s).I was just adding my two cents to where I believe the R lies in the Canon universe, how you took it personal is crazy beyond me. Once again, there was no post by you quoted, therefore you are not involved in this. Have a good day Sir.



You were quoting Unfocused's post dissecting my post, so, yes, I am involved. Yes, I have standing.

And, in case you forgot, a thread is an open discussion, not a private conversation.


----------



## slclick (Sep 7, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> You were quoting Unfocused's post dissecting my post, so, yes, I am involved. Yes, I have standing.
> 
> And, in case you forgot, a thread is an open discussion, not a private conversation.


So you add a winky and it makes it ok to be condescending?


----------



## YuengLinger (Sep 7, 2019)

slclick said:


> So you add a winky and it makes it ok to be condescending?


I fall back on my "having a bad day" theory.


----------



## BillB (Sep 8, 2019)

Joaquim said:


> What's a thumbdrive camera?


In the old days, 35mm cameras had a lever for you to use to advance the film for the next shot.


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## digigal (Sep 8, 2019)

juststeve said:


> I have not had that much trouble getting good to excellent wildlife results from the R using lenses from the 100-400 L IS ii to the 400/2.8 L IS and the 500/4 L IS ii, often with extenders both of necessity and curiosity. But then I started photographing wildlife using thumb drive cameras with manual focus and film. And I got salable results. So I say it is a usable wildlife photography camera.
> 
> That said, would I like the guts of a Nikon 850 stuffed into an R body? Yes, I would. That would be my ultimate wildlife and landscape camera.


I have no trouble getting excellent wildlife portraits of posing animals and birds with the R (see the puffin above) and the files are beautiful and don't require the cleanup that those from the 7DMKII do. But when I refer to a wildlife camera I need one the can also capture the flying puffin, the attacking leopard, the penguin leaping in the water, the charging bear, and have the focus be in the right spot. The R is more than capable of capturing a leopard sitting in a tree, a penguin standing on the beach, and a bear clamming but these are all static wildlife shots and nice in their own way but I also to shoot a lot of animal behavior which involves more action and I've have not found the R suitable in any way for this. I would certainly be open to any suggestion you have about my settings that could improve this. The picture below was one of a series of rapid shots of a leopard attacking an impala using the 7DMKII. I always want to be prepared for something like this as well as the portraits.
Catherine


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## bhf3737 (Sep 8, 2019)

digigal said:


> I have no trouble getting excellent wildlife portraits of posing animals and birds with the R (see the puffin above) and the files are beautiful and don't require the cleanup that those from the 7DMKII do. But when I refer to a wildlife camera I need one the can also capture the flying puffin, the attacking leopard, the penguin leaping in the water, the charging bear, and have the focus be in the right spot. The R is more than capable of capturing a leopard sitting in a tree, a penguin standing on the beach, and a bear clamming but these are all static wildlife shots and nice in their own way but I also to shoot a lot of animal behavior which involves more action and I've have not found the R suitable in any way for this. I would certainly be open to any suggestion you have about my settings that could improve this. The picture below was one of a series of rapid shots of a leopard attacking an impala using the 7DMKII. I always want to be prepared for something like this as well as the portraits.
> Catherine


Yes, that is true that it is more challenging to capture dynamic wild-life with EOS-R but it is not impossible. I personally don't conclude that R is not suitable in any way for this. Perhaps a little patience and proper setup is the key. I am looking forward to an EOS-R which has higher frame rate, improved EVF, snappy AF for moving objects, better eye-AF, long RF lenses, etc. etc. etc. But I won't stand still (either silent or complain) till the time that a camera with those endless set of features is given to me. Life is too short and better not waste it waiting. 
The followings have been taken with EOS-R.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 8, 2019)

The first and third are easy shots that could be done effectively with manual focus, the middle shot is proving everybody else's point, it isn't critically sharp.


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## Diltiazem (Sep 8, 2019)

canonnews said:


> it could very well be a hindrance.
> 
> as we've seen in the countless patents surrounding Canon's implementation of IBIS + IS integration there is a ton of considerations to it.
> 
> ...


Long reply, but I enjoyed it.  
Totally agree with you about AF advancements and Canon's determination catch up or even go ahead. Canon lagged behind in data processing speed. This affected AF performance, video performance and resulted in viewfinder lag in its mirrorless. Now with M6 II it appears that Canon has made significant progress in this regard. There surely were non-hardware/algorithm issues as well, evident from the fact that Canon is able to fix some of the AF issues in R/RP with firmware updates alone. 
Everybody will welcome improvement in sensor performance. But I feel that it is important, but not as important as AF (tracking, recognition etc) issues, VF lag, video performance issues and maybe IBIS. It will be interesting to see if 90D's PDAF is better than that of 80D (we know LV AF is much better).


----------



## unfocused (Sep 8, 2019)

bhf3737 said:


> Yes, that is true that it is more challenging to capture dynamic wild-life with EOS-R but it is not impossible. I personally don't conclude that R is not suitable in any way for this. Perhaps a little patience and proper setup is the key. I am looking forward to an EOS-R which has higher frame rate, improved EVF, snappy AF for moving objects, better eye-AF, long RF lenses, etc. etc. etc. But I won't stand still (either silent or complain) till the time that a camera with those endless set of features is given to me. Life is too short and better not waste it waiting.
> The followings have been taken with EOS-R.
> View attachment 186457
> 
> ...


Don't let the jerks get you down. Some people are so insecure they have to criticize others to make themselves feel better. These are nice shots.


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## AlanF (Sep 8, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Don't let the jerks get you down. Some people are so insecure they have to criticize others to make themselves feel better. These are nice shots.


Privatebydesign was not criticising a person, he was criticising photographs. It is you who are criticising a person and personalising the discussion by describing others in CR as jerks. You have every right to defend those images but not to abuse others.


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## juststeve (Sep 8, 2019)

The first of the year I rented an R, adapter and 24-105 for two weeks. My main goal was to photograph bald eagles, mainly in flight. It did well, although one aspect of the testing was to see how well it worked in cold weather. I was working in the 20's. Later in the two weeks I had the camera, I was able to photograph at -11 or so in Yellowstone. In both cases the camera worked very well. I must admit I was hoping for -30 or lower to really give it a test.

Still, I was able to successfully photograph birds, large ones admittedly but fast, in flight, and mammals, both very quick, wolves and coyotes, and a bit slower, moose and bison, under more severe temperatures than likely in the Antarctic summer. Also, out of curiosity, I tried to photo mallards in flight at the local pond with my 100-400 ii and the 2x on the R. I was able to do so with some success. I was very surprised by this. Mallards move very fast, even more so than cheetahs and leopards. Since then autofocus firmware on the R and performance has been upgraded, with another scheduled in a few weeks.

Since renting the camera months ago, I purchased one earlier this summer to take with me to the Southwest desert. I wanted the flippy screen for low-to-ground landscape work. My 5DS does not have such a wonderment. 

Not all of my photos with my purchased R camera were from the desert. Many were from the mountains of Montana, including a black bear, elk, mule deer does and fawns, prairie falcon, harrier, Harlan's red tail (both perched and in flight), mountain bluebird (snapshot feeding fledgling), and playing border collie pup. The camera functioned at least as well as I did and most likely better. If one overlooks the frame rate, the R was functioning every bit as well as my 7Dii, a bit better in some cases and a bit poorer in others. But always close. Close enough that if my 7Dii went down, I would probably purchase a M6 ii to replace it and get by with the adapters rather than go to the 90D for those times when I was pixelly disadvantaged.

The trick in getting by with the mirrorless is simply realizing that while one may be an old dog, one can still learn new tricks. The mirrorless cameras do require relearning years of developed habits and that ain't easy. But it can be rewarding. It can reward you with photographs you may not have able to get with your previous mirror slapping equipment. And learning new tricks is reward in itself.

I look forward to seeing where the RF line takes us. I also have a few too many miles on the old bones, so am a bit impatient. A souped up R is the camera I really want. If it is a 83 MP monster which can do 5 FPS and give a 1.4 to 1.6 crop which can do 7-10 FPS I would be happy with that. I would be happier with a 45-50 MP camera which can do 7-8 FPS and has AF as good as it looks like the RF can eventually do (cross points would be really, really nice). I would buy three of them immediately and be happy for the rest of my life. And I really would like to see one or the other in the next 6-8 months.

In the meantime, I will continue with my 5DS and 7Dii with my R and EOS M5 useful adjuncts and likely will keep them as backup well into the mirrorless future and for use in extreme conditions where the more battery dependent mirrorless cameras may struggle.


----------



## Diltiazem (Sep 8, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> The first and third are easy shots that could be done effectively with manual focus, the middle shot is proving everybody else's point, it isn't critically sharp.


I won't say EOS R is a camera suitable for all kinds of wildlife photography. It's main problem is the viewfinder lag when tracking subjects. A bird may be partly out of the frame when VF will show you the whole bird withing the frame (at the edge). When a bird is flying across the frame and it is reasonably close I usually lose the bird after 5-7 shots in a burst. Other than that it is not as bad as the internet wisdom makes it. It's focus acquisition and tracking (sticking with the subject) is as good as my 5DIV or 7DII with 100-400 II. 
I am lucky to have a tern colony nearby. During feeding time they are not the easiest to capture in flight. They fly fast and erratically looking for the babies. I have taken hundreds of BIF with R. During the time I am able to keep the birds in the frame the keeper rate is as good as 7DII or 5DIV (I never used 1D series bodies). 
Couple of examples, full scene first and then 100% crop.


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## Otara (Sep 8, 2019)

digigal said:


> I have no trouble getting excellent wildlife portraits of posing animals and birds with the R (see the puffin above) and the files are beautiful and don't require the cleanup that those from the 7DMKII do. But when I refer to a wildlife camera I need one the can also capture the flying puffin, the attacking leopard, the penguin leaping in the water, the charging bear, and have the focus be in the right spot.
> Catherine



I think thats a fair point Catherine, the wake time with the R alone can be hard work for that kind of shooting. I think what you say above is pretty much the choice for people - image quality vs AF versatility at a certain price point. Which is your wildlife camera of choice will depend on those things to an extent, and thus reproduce the classic crop vs full frame debates of old which much of this seems to be a new variant in disguise. Amateur wierdoes like me who like doing video as well with their camera might like some aspects of the R too.

I think the last poster I read about 'new tricks' has a point too though. Being able to take a truly silent shot and not watch a creature disappear or simply jump in reaction as the shutter goes off has a fair bit of value for me with some subjects.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 8, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Privatebydesign was not criticising a person, he was criticising photographs. It is you who are criticising a person and personalising the discussion by describing others in CR as jerks. You have every right to defend those images but not to abuse others.


Okay, let me correct that. 

Don't let the rude behavior of some people get you down. 

Satisfied?


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 8, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Privatebydesign was not criticising a person, he was criticising photographs. It is you who are criticising a person and personalising the discussion by describing others in CR as jerks. You have every right to defend those images but not to abuse others.


I'm so insensitive I didn't even realize it was directed at me, either that or I didn't think I was being a jerk in this instance, I agree I can be... 

But it really is water off a ducks back, I truthfully didn't mean anything personal.



Diltiazem said:


> I won't say EOS R is a camera suitable for all kinds of wildlife photography. It's main problem is the viewfinder lag when tracking subjects. A bird may be partly out of the frame when VF will show you the whole bird withing the frame (at the edge). When a bird is flying across the frame and it is reasonably close I usually lose the bird after 5-7 shots in a burst. Other than that it is not as bad as the internet wisdom makes it. It's focus acquisition and tracking (sticking with the subject) is as good as my 5DIV or 7DII with 100-400 II.
> I am lucky to have a tern colony nearby. During feeding time they are not the easiest to capture in flight. They fly fast and erratically looking for the babies. I have taken hundreds of BIF with R. During the time I am able to keep the birds in the frame the keeper rate is as good as 7DII or 5DIV (I never used 1D series bodies).
> Couple of examples, full scene first and then 100% crop.
> View attachment 186463
> ...


Very impressive examples of AF performance.



unfocused said:


> Okay, let me correct that.
> 
> Don't let the rude behavior of some people get you down.
> 
> Satisfied?


Unfocused, I wasn't being rude, we are adults and we are discussing the merits of a camera, an image was shown as an example of a feature and I, quite correctly and honestly pointed out that it was not a good example of that feature, I didn't criticize the image as a whole or the photographer/poster. I was not pulling anybody down and whilst I freely admit I can be a jerk I don't believe I was in this instance and that was not my intention.


----------



## bhf3737 (Sep 8, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> The first and third are easy shots that could be done effectively with manual focus, the middle shot is proving everybody else's point, it isn't critically sharp.


Thanks for constructive comment. My point was that these are the kind of sample picture that can be captured by the current EOS-R.
Is the current R perfect for typical shots like these? No. 
Is the current R useless for typical shots like these? No (in my opinion). 
Therefore, I don't conclude that R is not suitable in any way for this genre. Some may agree or disagree, and that is fine either way.
Of course, looking forward to getting a more capable version of R, when it becomes available.


----------



## ozturert (Sep 8, 2019)

djack41 said:


> Too slow, Canon. Sony is releasing the A9ll very soon and it will likely raise the bar yet again.


Too slow for what? 1Dx III is coming, right?


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 8, 2019)

ozturert said:


> Too slow for what? 1Dx III is coming, right?


Sony would have released sooner, but they are having a time getting the A9II's nails out to get it off it's cross. No weather sealing need this time around. It walks on water.  When water does touch it, it turns to wine. Okay, wine cooler.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 8, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Okay, let me correct that.
> 
> Don't let the rude behavior of some people get you down.
> 
> Satisfied?


That’s more like it. Keep it dignified and we will all be satisfied. Unfortunately, and this is not aimed at you, there is too much rudeness in current political debate and it is becoming the accepted norm. But, private wasn’t being rude and bhf3737 was not offended and took it in good spirit.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 8, 2019)

bhf3737 said:


> Thanks for constructive comment. My point was that these are the kind of sample picture that can be captured by the current EOS-R.
> Is the current R perfect for typical shots like these? No.
> Is the current R useless for typical shots like these? No (in my opinion).
> Therefore, I don't conclude that R is not suitable in any way for this genre. Some may agree or disagree, and that is fine either way.
> Of course, looking forward to getting a more capable version of R, when it becomes available.



That’s quite correct. What usually distinguishes the different cameras and lenses for the different purposes is the keeper rate. If you have the right combination of body and lens, you will get a high number of keepers. If you don’t, you won’t necessarily get no keepers, but you get fewer.


----------



## Viggo (Sep 8, 2019)

I keep shooting the same stuff I usually do, that’s how I can compare cameras/lenses. And it’s just a very tiny portion of shots where the 1dx2 was better, and so small that I couldn’t care less.

I’m so excited that there will be a R body that would actually be quite a bit better with AF than the R. Because already it’s seriously good for what I tend to shoot.
This shot is at pretty high speed and very close, he’s coming in diagonal and the sun was very low and behind. Think it was shot at f1.2 with the RF50. It’s just edited in camera and Lr on my tiny screen. But it looked okay. Perhaps not easy to see from this res, but his shoulder is softer than the eyes, so focus is spot on.


----------



## Architect1776 (Sep 8, 2019)

bhf3737 said:


> Yes, that is true that it is more challenging to capture dynamic wild-life with EOS-R but it is not impossible. I personally don't conclude that R is not suitable in any way for this. Perhaps a little patience and proper setup is the key. I am looking forward to an EOS-R which has higher frame rate, improved EVF, snappy AF for moving objects, better eye-AF, long RF lenses, etc. etc. etc. But I won't stand still (either silent or complain) till the time that a camera with those endless set of features is given to me. Life is too short and better not waste it waiting.
> The followings have been taken with EOS-R.
> View attachment 186457
> 
> ...



Looks like it does just fine.
Those complaining are just trying to find an excuse for lack of talent and skill. So they blame the camera. You have shown that with skill and talent it is the photographer not the camera. Thank you for the great examples and perhaps those with complaints will work on skill set rather than blame the camera for their failures.


----------



## Otara (Sep 8, 2019)

I dont think thats fair, I think people are mostly worried that the EOS R is being oversold compared to other options that might have a better feature set/pricepoint compared to it. Hopefully the debate over the various features and shortfalls will result in a more informed decision for whatever choice people do make.


----------



## rbielefeld (Sep 8, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Quite the reverse, if you are unable to take part in rational discussion and read views that are contrary to your own, it is for you to leave Canonrumors. It is discussion that leads to progress not putting on blinkers.


Exactly, and it is not that Canon is not making a camera with specs I want at a price point I want. It is that Canon has not put out a Pro mirrorless body, period. I will have no problem paying what Canon asks for their pro mirrorless when they offer it as long as it performs as a pro camera should. I am confident Canon will step up. I just hope it is not 3 years away.


----------



## richperson (Sep 8, 2019)

digigal said:


> I have no trouble getting excellent wildlife portraits of posing animals and birds with the R (see the puffin above) and the files are beautiful and don't require the cleanup that those from the 7DMKII do. But when I refer to a wildlife camera I need one the can also capture the flying puffin, the attacking leopard, the penguin leaping in the water, the charging bear, and have the focus be in the right spot. The R is more than capable of capturing a leopard sitting in a tree, a penguin standing on the beach, and a bear clamming but these are all static wildlife shots and nice in their own way but I also to shoot a lot of animal behavior which involves more action and I've have not found the R suitable in any way for this. I would certainly be open to any suggestion you have about my settings that could improve this. The picture below was one of a series of rapid shots of a leopard attacking an impala using the 7DMKII. I always want to be prepared for something like this as well as the portraits.
> Catherine
> View attachment 186451



This is exactly my experience with sports compared to other shooting. Fantastic camera, but just not the right body for fast moving or quick timing shots. Excellent description, and WOW, fantasying photography.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Sep 8, 2019)

Worth bearing in mind that non-random sample photographs are pretty poor evidence of the AF capabilities of any camera. They are poor evidence of anything as far as I'm concerned although I know some may find that illogical. I have taken lots of OOF photos with my 1DX Mark II and just as many that were tack sharp with my vintage manual focus gear. That doesn't mean my MF gear focuses better than my 1DX Mark II. Even a blind squirell finds a nut every once in a while.


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## NorskHest (Sep 8, 2019)

JGalicki said:


> I'm a wildlife shooter and recently invested in Canon's new 600mm mark III. It's light, incredible and works well with my 1DX II and 5D Mark IV. That said, I'm worried how this lens, along with the rest of my EF lineup, will interact with the new mirrorless bodies. I don't have the EOS R as it was too slow for my needs, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the adapter will not slow down autofocus one bit....it does add more connection points regardless. Even a very minor or small lag can be a deal breaker in the wildlife space. I'll want to buy this new pro mirrorless body in a few years as it will be their fastest camera and an EVF along with a silent shutter are all major positives as far as I'm concerned. That said, the major drawback will be any loss of capability when using the adapter with the EF telephoto line. I can't imagine Canon would be releasing a full range of super telephoto RF glass by 2021. And if they do pull something like that off, they should've went toward that entire direction earlier rather than releasing recent EF updates to the 600mm and 400mm f/2.8 lenses...as well as an upcoming 1DX Mark III.


I shot a eos r with my 600ii and a 2xiii and the communication seemed fine but the camera it self seemed problematic. The focus speed of the camera just seemed off , the delay from the view finder was to long. I was tracking a young eagle diving for a fish and well the delay made it pretty challenging. Anyway I don’t think the adapters are going to be the issue I think the issues will be the camera


----------



## northphoto (Sep 8, 2019)

Canon is so behind it's almost a greek tragedy!!!
they are holding onto their DSLR's and hoping it will cary them into the 21st century.
Sure you have those die hard canon users "I am one of them" but I see a lot and I mean a lot of Nikon and Canon users going to Sony!
I may become one of them myself.
The best thing to come out of Canon in the past 5 years is the M6 MK2 and that has it's flaws, but is otherwise a great little camera.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 8, 2019)

northphoto said:


> Canon is so behind it's almost a greek tragedy!!!
> they are holding onto their DSLR's and hoping it will cary them into the 21st century.
> Sure you have those die hard canon users "I am one of them" but I see a lot and I mean a lot of Nikon and Canon users going to Sony!
> I may become one of them myself.
> The best thing to come out of Canon in the past 5 years is the M6 MK2 and that has it's flaws, but is otherwise a great little camera.


Last 5 years: Nov 2014, 7DII – the then best APS-C; June 2015, 5DSR and 5DS - only just deposed as kings of the megapixels and best resolution; April 2016, 1DXII – best Pro camera; Sep 2016, 5DIV - best all round workhorse for a while; and a host of cheaper cameras and expensive top rate lenses.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Sep 8, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


>


Funny, sounds nearly like Canon plans to revive their "Mirrorbox 2" from the 1960s. Like Leica, they offered such a device to turn a Canon 7 rangefinder into an SLR, so one could shoot with longer than 135 mm tele lenses (image: https://flynngraphics.ca/model-7):


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## northphoto (Sep 8, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Last 5 years: Nov 2014, 7DII – the then best APS-C; June 2015, 5DSR and 5DS - only just deposed as kings of the megapixels and best resolution; April 2016, 1DXII – best Pro camera; Sep 2016, 5DIV - best all round workhorse for a while; and a host of cheaper cameras and expensive top rate lenses.



You have also included in your post "Just Deposed" "for a while" and not to mention those are all DSLR's not mirrorless 
and when canon releases a mirrorless the R it is sub par in just about every way including a single SD slot ! 
It was really release for Mid level photographers at best and priced it like a pro camera!
I own the Canon 5D4 and 3 and love them don't get me wrong! but I look at what Sony has done and say why do we as canon users need to wait till 2021 to see that type of camera for Canon?
Canon continues to lag and there financials only proves that is a grave mistake.


----------



## Viggo (Sep 8, 2019)

northphoto said:


> You have also included in your post "Just Deposed" "for a while" and not to mention those are all DSLR's not mirrorless
> and when canon releases a mirrorless the R it is sub par in just about every way including a single SD slot !
> It was really release for Mid level photographers at best and priced it like a pro camera!
> I own the Canon 5D4 and 3 and love them don't get me wrong! but I look at what Sony has done and say why do we as canon users need to wait till 2021 to see that type of camera for Canon?
> Canon continues to lag and there financials only proves that is a grave mistake.


It was quite a bit lower priced than the 5d4 with the same IQ and IMO a lot of other things better also. So priced between the 6d2 and 5d4 with bits of both. And then better than both regarding a lot that has to do with both AF and customization. And with the RF glass, next level quality in most of my images.


----------



## CvH (Sep 8, 2019)

LensFungus said:


> The only reason to buy the 90D in December is if you were in a coma on Black Friday.


Sorry, when exactly is Black Friday?


----------



## northphoto (Sep 8, 2019)

Viggo said:


> It was quite a bit lower priced than the 5d4 with the same IQ and IMO a lot of other things better also. So priced between the 6d2 and 5d4 with bits of both. And then better than both regarding a lot that has to do with both AF and customization. And with the RF glass, next level quality in most of my images.



you are missing the point
DSLR's are more or less a thing of the past
Canon is choosing to live in the past.

Bottom line, they need to catch up.


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 8, 2019)

northphoto said:


> you are missing the point
> DSLR's are more or less a thing of the past
> Canon is choosing to live in the past.
> 
> Bottom line, they need to catch up.


You are missing the wood for the trees. 

Canon make the best selling MILC camera and camera system on the planet. Canon sell 6 MILC's across a wide price range that includes 2 sensor sizes and world class leading lenses with unmatched usability with legacy lenses.

Just because Canon don't currently make the camera you think you want doesn't mean Canon as a company need to to make anything more, if they continue support for buyers that want DSLR's who are we and what hard data do we have to contradict them?


----------



## canonnews (Sep 8, 2019)

bhf3737 said:


> Yes, that is true that it is more challenging to capture dynamic wild-life with EOS-R but it is not impossible. I personally don't conclude that R is not suitable in any way for this. Perhaps a little patience and proper setup is the key. I am looking forward to an EOS-R which has higher frame rate, improved EVF, snappy AF for moving objects, better eye-AF, long RF lenses, etc. etc. etc. But I won't stand still (either silent or complain) till the time that a camera with those endless set of features is given to me. Life is too short and better not waste it waiting.


It will be intriguing to see how you feel the EOS R is after this AF performance upgrade this month.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 8, 2019)

northphoto said:


> ...I see a lot and I mean a lot of Nikon and Canon users going to Sony!


Given that Canon is not losing ILC market share to Sony, what you see doesn’t match reality.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 8, 2019)

northphoto said:


> you are missing the point
> DSLR's are more or less a thing of the past
> Canon is choosing to live in the past.
> 
> Bottom line, they need to catch up.


DSLRs outsell MILCs globally. Once again, reality contradicts your personal viewpoint. 

Bottom line, you are welcome to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.


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## Mikehit (Sep 8, 2019)

AlanF said:


> That’s more like it. Keep it dignified and we will all be satisfied. Unfortunately, and this is not aimed at you, there is too much rudeness in current political debate and it is becoming the accepted norm. But, private wasn’t being rude and bhf3737 was not offended and took it in good spirit.



Is there not also a responsibility on posters not to enter hyperbole mode (another problem in the current world of social media).
Comments along the lines of 'it is in no way a wildlife camera' when others can clearly show it can be successfully used as such, but what they really mean 'it does not match what I want from a camera' . When someone makes broad sweeping comments like that it can lead to frustration and intemperate responses. 
I am not making excuses, just an observation.


----------



## LensFungus (Sep 8, 2019)

Chz said:


> Sorry, when exactly is Black Friday?


Last Friday in November. Well, someone could get really good camera deals on Sunday or Cyber Monday which would be both in December but most of the good deals should be already be gone.


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## Gözler (Sep 8, 2019)

I hope Canon will release a mirrorless 5D or equivalent before a mirrorless 1DX. 
March 2012 5D3 when I upgraded to full frame. December 2016 5D4. I hope next year we will see a mirrorless 5D. But transition to EOS R can take longer.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 8, 2019)

Gözler said:


> I hope next year we will see a mirrorless 5D.


We saw it last year, it is called the EOS R.


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## Photo Hack (Sep 8, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> We saw it last year, it is called the EOS R.


Canons own team would suggest that’s not true. When interviewed, they specifically stated it’s market and position is between 6D and 5D. If it’s truly the mirrorless “5D mkv”, all the criticisms of the camera are not just hyperbole but well deserved.


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## Photo Hack (Sep 8, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Given that Canon is not losing ILC market share to Sony, what you see doesn’t match reality.



That’s also not direct evidence to contradict the anecdotal claim that Canon and Nikon shooters are switching to Sony in large numbers.

1. Sony’s marketshare has dramatically increased over the past five years. 
2. Nikon’s marketshare has decreased dramatically over the same period. 
3. Canon’s marketshare has also decreased and fluctuated over the same period. 
4. New shooters and retiring shooters also play a factor. 
5. Shooters can be switching 1 to 1 for net zero gain. 

I could get far into this but your rebuttal isn’t one based in logic. We don’t have the direct information to directly object to or prove that there is a migration of Canon and Nikon shooters moving to Sony. We have inferred conclusions and anecdotal evidence so that’s why we see these claims on here so often. Personally my experience with the pros I work with reflects a move from Canons and Nikon to Sony, Fuji, and Panasonic and not the other way around. This is reality and also can be seen in marketshare. 

At the foundation of this claim I believe is the idea that Pro and Amateur photographers who are spending the most money in the camera market are slowly moving to Sony. From all indications, I believe this to be true. 

How can this be true and Canon still maintain their strong marketshare in units sold? I believe it is in their entry level market. One which overall is dramatically contracting and a reason for worry among a lot of us. It’s not a secret Canon is bleeding profit right now. I could be wrong, so please correct me, Sony is doing relatively better financially, but again, we don’t have the information for good conclusions. As a percentage of total units sold, the entry level offerings from Nikon and Sony I believe will affect their marketshare more than Canon. 

Revenue marketshare, while also doesn’t tell us much, can at least be another indicator on these questions. 

The fact that Nikon and Canon jumped into the full frame mirrorless market, to me, shows that they feel it’s worth their long term effort to compete with Sony. 

I’m curious if NO ONE was leaving the big two for Sony, what would be the incentive to invest so much R&D into full frame mirrorless and release half baked cameras that are generations behind Sony?

What would Canons marketshare be today if not for Sony’s mirrorless full frame success? The fact is, Sony’s marketshare has increased. It has to come from somewhere. New shooters, Canon & Nikon shooters, and other brands as well.


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 8, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> Is there not also a responsibility on posters not to enter hyperbole mode (another problem in the current world of social media).
> Comments along the lines of 'it is in no way a wildlife camera' when others can clearly show it can be successfully used as such, but what they really mean 'it does not match what I want from a camera' . When someone makes broad sweeping comments like that it can lead to frustration and intemperate responses.
> I am not making excuses, just an observation.


Even if there was the comment that started this subtext wasn't hyperbolic in any way shape or form.

But yes, I agree, people are too hyperbolic and a little narrow minded on occasions. None of us are unique in the way we use our cameras but there are very diverse subsets that have differing and diverse priorities and abilities as well as experience.

I'm sure if you sat me next to a BIF specialist who was using a box brownie while I had a 1DX they would get better images than me. Send me out to take pictures of people with anything and I'll get you more compelling images than any bird photographer I know, and I live in Florida so they are a dime a dozen. 

Any serious bird photographer would laugh this image into their trash can on a technical level, most travel shooters would kill for the shot. The second image was shot on assignment and would have zero value were it not critically sharp.


----------



## Photo Hack (Sep 8, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Given that Canon is not losing ILC market share to Sony, what you see doesn’t match reality.



Lastly, are you accusing him of lying? Do you have evidence to suggest that the shooters he’s seen switching to Sony don’t exist?

I also have seen the trend in our circles of pros. Is what I’m seeing just me making up my own reality? Are you going to tell me that many of my friends and competitors are not switching camera systems?

Lol you’re starting to sound like the “flat earther” you crusade against on this forum.


----------



## Viggo (Sep 8, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Lastly, are you accusing him of lying? Do you have evidence to suggest that the shooters he’s seen switching to Sony don’t exist?
> 
> I also have seen the trend in our circles of pros. Is what I’m seeing just me making up my own reality? Are you going to tell me that many of my friends and competitors are not switching camera systems?
> 
> Lol you’re starting to sound like the “flat earther” you crusade against on this forum.


Either what you’re seeing is just not even a large enough number to register. Or more people are joining Canon than leaving.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 8, 2019)

LensFungus said:


> Last Friday in November. Well, someone could get really good camera deals on Sunday or Cyber Monday which would be both in December but most of the good deals should be already be gone.


Not necessarily. With big ticket, specialty items like cameras, the market gets very fluid in Nov-Dec. Best just to watch Canon Price Watch and see how the deals develop.


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## Photo Hack (Sep 8, 2019)

Viggo said:


> Either what you’re seeing is just not even a large enough number to register. Or more people are joining Canon than leaving.


It’s actually reflected in the same marketshare Neuro is supposedly citing.

Canons in 2014 was over 43% to Sony’s 13% and Nikons 32%.

In 2017 Canon was at 36% to Sony’s 18% and Nikons 19%. In 2018 was an uptick for Canon to 40% to Sony’s loss of .7%.

The real loser here is Nikon but both have obviously lost share to someone and I’m willing to bet it was to Sony, Fuji, Olympus, and Panasonic.

The question is what did these manufacturers offer over Canon and Nikon during that stretch of time?

And again this is total unit sales. Canon has the biggest presence in high volume entry level products which is overall declining for everyone. I believe Canons marketshare is holding up because simply being the most recognized brand and the loyal following among many other things.

The area of note for full frame would be pros and amateurs who we are observing making a switch in systems over the past 5 years.

Welcome to reality, where observation and experience meets data and objective truth.









Interchangeable-Lens Camera Market Share in 2014


Nikkei Asian Review published this interesting chart showing which companies dominated the interchangeable-lens camera sales in 2014. Canon had 43.3%,




petapixel.com







https://petapixel.com/2019/07/08/canon-increased-market-share-in-2018-but-camera-market-continues-to-bleed/


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## unfocused (Sep 8, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Canons own team would suggest that’s not true. When interviewed, they specifically stated it’s market and position is between 6D and 5D. If it’s truly the mirrorless “5D mkv”, all the criticisms of the camera are not just hyperbole but well deserved.


Based on the pattern so far, and on Canon's propensity to slot cameras at different price targets, the Canon camera hierarchy could well look like this in the future (price at introduction):

Flagship DSLR (1Dx) $6000
Flagship Mirrorless (Rx) $5,000
5D $3,500
R High Resolution $3,500
R $2,200
6D $2,000
RP $1,300

The flagship mirrorless will not have some of the features of the 1D, but will perform at a similar level, just as the R does not have all the features of the 5D but generally performs at a similar level.

I'm not sure where Canon will slot a high resolution mirrorless, but if the 5Ds is any indication, they will ask a premium price for it and not offer a lot of discounts. I'm putting it around the price of the 5D at introduction, but it could be slightly higher. Maybe lower, but I doubt it. 

I think people expecting exact equivalents between DSLRs and Rs will be disappointed, because I don't think that's Canon's strategy. People expecting a fifth full frame R camera should be prepared to have their bubbles burst.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 8, 2019)

northphoto said:


> You have also included in your post "Just Deposed" "for a while" and not to mention those are all DSLR's not mirrorless
> and when canon releases a mirrorless the R it is sub par in just about every way including a single SD slot !
> It was really release for Mid level photographers at best and priced it like a pro camera!
> I own the Canon 5D4 and 3 and love them don't get me wrong! but I look at what Sony has done and say why do we as canon users need to wait till 2021 to see that type of camera for Canon?
> Canon continues to lag and there financials only proves that is a grave mistake.


Read what you wrote and what I replied to:


northphoto said:


> ....
> The best thing to come out of Canon in the past 5 years is the M6 MK2 and that has it's flaws, but is otherwise a great little camera.


You wrote that the M6 Mk2 was better than all of those great Canon cameras I listed. DSLR vs MILC didn't come into it.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 8, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> That’s also not direct evidence to contradict the anecdotal claim that Canon and Nikon shooters are switching to Sony in large numbers.
> 
> 1. Sony’s marketshare has dramatically increased over the past decade.
> 2. Nikon’s marketshare has decreased over the same period.
> ...


Note that I did not mention Nikon in my reply, only Canon, so your arguments about ‘Canon and Nikon’ are not really a relevant or logical rebuttal. Nikon has been losing marketshare, Sony has gained, Canon has gained very slightly. 

Certainly there is movement in both (all) directions. I’d argue that only the net change matters. 

I’m not going to play the ‘what would have happened if’ game, I think that’s pointless but if it amuses you, by all means fantasize away.


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## rjbray01 (Sep 8, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> Is there not also a responsibility on posters not to enter hyperbole mode (another problem in the current world of social media).
> Comments along the lines of 'it is in no way a wildlife camera' when others can clearly show it can be successfully used as such, but what they really mean 'it does not match what I want from a camera' . When someone makes broad sweeping comments like that it can lead to frustration and intemperate responses.
> I am not making excuses, just an observation.



I think, to be fair, its only natural that when we who have invested heavily in Canon equipment, and love it, cannot help but be very envious when we see that Sony are bringing out features which would improve our photographs and our experience of taking them.

IBIS

Eye detect - even in continuous focus mode

Stunning 5 megapixel, low latency EVF 
showing exposure before taking the shot
allowing the user see the photograph just taken even in bright sunlight

I for one would love those features and it *hurts* that I'm going to have to wait for maybe 2 or 3 years until they are built into a Canon camera which is the same price as a 5D4 retails for today.

So, its only natural that people groan ... I'm with the groaners .. because I'm normal


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## Viggo (Sep 8, 2019)

“
Eye detect - even in continuous focus mode

Stunning 5 megapixel, low latency EVF 
showing exposure before taking the shot
allowing the user see the photograph just taken even in bright sunlight”


Except for the 5 mp, what does the R not have of those features?


----------



## ronno (Sep 8, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> On the topic of dual cards, what is the latest workflow for onsite backup? I haven’t had to do that since the glory days of the 6D release when we had four of those in our studio.
> 
> Seriously considering selling all of our 5D Mark IVs and going to R since the price of grey market is in the toilet right now and I want to move to single body shooting events with 28-70 & 70-200 and use our RPs for backup. Could sell all our primes and really simplify our day. Also doing more video than ever.
> 
> ...



Here’s the backup workaround: The EOS R can be set to send *full-size* jpegs to your iPad, cell phone, laptop over WIFI - while shooting RAW to the SD card.

It works *very fast* (under a second per image), and seems a a reasonable Plan B if you are worried about a card failing.


----------



## SecureGSM (Sep 8, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> We saw it last year, it is called the EOS R.


I believe it was rather a mirrorless 6D II with upgraded sensor: weather protection levels, controls, omission of DPRAW, second memory card. Future will tell though. My expectation that 5D level mirrorless to be priced at around $3500-3800 at release. R was an aggressively priced product designed to penetrated enthusiasts and some categories of pro shooters that do not require what I mentioned above. 
I expect a 5D level mirrorless to be released in about 1 year from now.


----------



## SecureGSM (Sep 8, 2019)

Except JPGs aren’t RAWs and wifi will kill the battery fast. Obviously better than nothing being somewhat acceptable for some shooters. Not generally a solution though.


----------



## Photo Hack (Sep 8, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Note that I did not mention Nikon in my reply, only Canon, so your arguments about ‘Canon and Nikon’ are not really a relevant or logical rebuttal. Nikon has been losing marketshare, Sony has gained, Canon has gained very slightly.
> 
> Certainly there is movement in both (all) directions. I’d argue that only the net change matters.
> 
> I’m not going to play the ‘what would have happened if’ game, I think that’s pointless but if it amuses you, by all means fantasize away.


Do you care to play the game of Canon losing 7% marketshare between 2014 to 2017 while Sony and Fuji increased? This the most relevant period when Sony was releasing the cameras that Nikon AND Canon shooters have supposedly been switching for, with 2018 being the time of speculation and release of Canon and Nikon's own FF mirrorless cameras.

Also Canon hasn’t regained the share they lost to Sony. You can use one year of data to support your claim if you want, but it’s intellectually dishonest and too narrow of context in the argument.

You’ve claimed to admit when you’re wrong when faced with facts. You’ve been singing the marketshare argument to shut down Sony fanboys in every thread without using contextual or factual data.

I’m curious what your response will be as you couldn’t do basic math the last time you were wrong about the length of the 28-70. Seems like you can’t see that 36% is less than 43%. Seems facts only matter if it fits your narrative on here.

P.S. You're welcome to your own opinion Neuro but not your own facts, as they often seem to not be in your favor. The irony doesn't escape me here. Even more embarrassing is the smug attitude you have toward those you disagree with.


----------



## navastronia (Sep 8, 2019)

ronno said:


> Here’s the backup workaround: The EOS R can be set to send *full-size* jpegs to your iPad, cell phone, laptop over WIFI - while shooting RAW to the SD card.
> 
> It works *very fast* (under a second per image), and seems a a reasonable Plan B if a card fails.



Is this feature also available in the RP?


----------



## unfocused (Sep 8, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> ...I expect a 5D level mirrorless to be released in about 1 year from now.



I doubt very much you will see five full frame mirrorless cameras from Canon -- RP, R, High Resolution R, R "X" and your "two card R."

Canon Rumors Guy seems pretty confident about the high resolution and "X" R bodies, but has not indicated that the Canon you are seeking is likely to materialize. I'm also not sure Canon agrees about the importance of a second card slot. They could follow a shortened release schedule and come out with an R II sometime in late 2021 or early 2022.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 8, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Lastly, are you accusing him of lying? Do you have evidence to suggest that the shooters he’s seen switching to Sony don’t exist?
> 
> I also have seen the trend in our circles of pros. Is what I’m seeing just me making up my own reality? Are you going to tell me that many of my friends and competitors are not switching camera systems?
> 
> Lol you’re starting to sound like the “flat earther” you crusade against on this forum.


You seem to be constructing strawmen merely for the sake of being argumentative. The fact that I personally know more Nikon shooters than Canon shooters says nothing about ILC market share. If you believe it does, cf. flat earther.


----------



## rjbray01 (Sep 8, 2019)

Viggo said:


> “
> Eye detect - even in continuous focus mode
> 
> Stunning 5 megapixel, low latency EVF
> ...



Well firstly the Eos R doesn't have IBIS

Secondly it has a slow and low resolution viewfinder

And when Tony Northrup compared the eye tracking to the A7R3 he said it was
"Slow but smooth"
"Significantly lower hit rate"
"Much worse than the Sony"

My own experience of Canon EVFs with the M5 put me off for a long time to come - I thought it was dreadful compared to an OVF.

Right now I have a 5D4 and I don't personally want to spend a very significant sum of money for an Eos R when I see reviews telling me it is way inferior to Sony 

As I said - I love my 5D and I will wait until Canon have brought out something which represents a significant advantage - but slow innacurate eye AF and a poor EVF with no IBIS doesn't cut it for me im sorry to say


----------



## Otara (Sep 8, 2019)

The wifi backup is a nice idea but has various gotchas. For instance if you have the viewfinder in the wrong info mode you wont even know if its loses connection till you look at the back display.


----------



## Photo Hack (Sep 8, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> You seem to be constructing strawmen merely for the sake of being argumentative. The fact that I personally know more Nikon shooters than Canon shooters says nothing about ILC market share. If you believe it does, cf. flat earther.


Straw man? I disagree. I'm stating that his observations reflect reality and I share the same observations. You're accusing his observations of not matching reality. You're also saying he's entitled to his opinion but not his own facts. 

Nit picking this little part of what I've said and ignoring the relative and main points is being "argumentative" in my opinion. Especially when you're wrong to begin with and feel obligated to be the fact police here and argue anyone at anytime about anything, even if it's talking about the shape of the earth.

Are you projecting that hard to not see how wrong you are here, and in fact, the one who's "facts" don't line up with reality? Your facts (I would like to see some references here since you swing these marketshare facts at so many people) are incorrect. Sony has gained marketshare and Canon has lost marketshare since Sony became a relevant player in the Full Frame market.

We can hypothesize over why that is until the cows come home, but that doesn't change the facts.


----------



## M. D. Vaden of Oregon (Sep 9, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> That’s also not direct evidence to contradict the anecdotal claim that Canon and Nikon shooters are switching to Sony in large numbers.
> 
> 1. Sony’s marketshare has *dramatically* increased over the past five years.
> 2. Nikon’s marketshare has decreased dramatically over the same period.
> *3. Canon’s marketshare has also decreased and fluctuated over the same period.*



What timer period? Early 1900s?

Aside from an article last autumn stating Canon took almost 25% of full frame mirrorless away from Sony, other stories tend to throw water on the "dramatically" vocabulary.

https://petapixel.com/2019/07/08/ca...in-2018-but-camera-market-continues-to-bleed/

There is fluctuation in markets the past couple years, but I am not seeing much drama yet in what's been happening. It seems that moderate changes may be what's occurred.

I suppose 22% gain in Japan from full frame mirrorless could be considered "dramatically". Although, a big change isn't a surprise with Canon and Nikon releasing full frame mirrorless. But 1/5 isn't pocket change.

https://www.canonrumors.com/full-fr...-canon-already-has-22-of-the-market-in-japan/


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## Joe Subolefsky (Sep 9, 2019)

I have an R and like it a lot. That said I’ve already sold my 5DIV and 1DX and will pickup the next Canon mirrorless body out if its a 5D style or 1DX. 
A few samples shot with my R.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 9, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Do you care to play the game of Canon losing 7% marketshare between 2014 to 2017 while Sony and Fuji increased? This the most relevant period when Sony was releasing the cameras that Nikon AND Canon shooters have supposedly been switching for, with 2018 being the time of speculation and release of Canon and Nikon's own FF mirrorless cameras.
> 
> Also Canon hasn’t regained the share they lost to Sony. You can use one year of data to support your claim if you want, but it’s intellectually dishonest and too narrow of context in the argument.
> 
> ...


I referred above, as I nearly always do, to the relative market shares for *interchangeable lens* cameras (“ILC market share”). Canon has maintained a ~49% share of the ILC market for the past few years, up from ~48% a few years ago, up from ~44% a decade ago. Canon’s ILC market share is relatively simple to estimate, since Canon publishes their unit sales data with their financials and CIPA publishes production and shipment data for the ILC market as a whole (I use ‘estimate’ because units sold are not identical to units produced/shipped, but they are likely to be approximately equivalent).

You are referring to and citing articles discussing *digital camera* market share, i.e. ILCs *and* compact cameras (aka point-and-shoot) *combined*. Given the nature of our discussions on this forum in general and my points in particular, considering the P&S market (which is essentially losing out to smartphones) is not logical. More importantly, I explicitly (and repeatedly) stated above, “*ILC* market share,” rendering your statements based on total digital camera market share tangential and useless as counterarguments. Ironic that you accuse me of intellectual dishonestly when it is, in fact, you being intellectually dishonest.

I’m sorry that you either don’t comprehend the terminology relevant to the discussion or are simply unable to read properly, but either way that’s really your problem, not mine.


----------



## Photo Hack (Sep 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> I referred above, as I nearly always do, to the relative market shares for *interchangeable lens* cameras (“ILC market share”). Canon has maintained a ~49% share of the ILC market for the past few years, up from ~48% a few years ago, up from ~44% a decade ago. Canon’s ILC market share is relatively simple to estimate, since Canon publishes their unit sales data with their financials and CIPA publishes production and shipment data for the ILC market as a whole (I use ‘estimate’ because units sold are not identical to units produced/shipped, but they are likely to be approximately equivalent).
> 
> You are referring to and citing articles discussing *digital camera* market share, i.e. ILCs *and* compact cameras (aka point-and-shoot) *combined*. Given the nature of our discussions on this forum in general and my points in particular, considering the P&S market (which is essentially losing out to smartphones) is not logical. More importantly, I explicitly (and repeatedly) stated above, “*ILC* market share,” rendering your statements based on total digital camera market share tangential and useless as counterarguments. Ironic that you accuse me of intellectual dishonestly when it is, in fact, you being intellectually dishonest.
> 
> I’m sorry that you either don’t comprehend the terminology relevant to the discussion or are simply unable to read properly, but either way that’s really your problem, not mine.


Your use of ILC market share vs my references of total market share doesn't contradict the claim that Canon users are buying Sony cameras, whether it's switching systems completely or shooting both (my original rebuttal to your comment). That is the basic claim made by a lot of people is it not? That Canon hasn't come out with a full frame mirrorless answer to Sony's offerings over the past 3-5 years?

Canon can increase about 1% in ILC market share in the relevant time period of discussion....good for them. This doesn't prove that Canon users are not switching whether partially or fully. The increase of Sony's market share in ILC and Total is the most relevant evidence here, especially in the context of a total market share loss of 7% and now 4% or so in the past 5 years for Canon. The other relevant evidence is Nikon market share going into the toilet relative to where they were. *Has anyone considered Nikon shooters also switch to Canon giving a zero net gain for Canon shooters buying Sony cameras?*

I think it's interesting that since the release of the R, Canon has reversed their downward trend and slowed Sony's upward trend.

In the end, ALL of this discussion of market share doesn't give concrete answers on the movement of photographers from one brand to another. It simply says that Sony is increasingly selling more total and ILC cameras and Canon & Nikon are selling less total and Canon nearly the same ILC cameras they have over the past 5 years.

Anecdotal and observable evidence by many photography groups and individuals seem to suggest that Canon and Nikon shooters are buying Sonys, whether they're switching completely or shooting two systems (adapting Canon glass as well). I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude this is a real trend that is happening when ILC & total market share also corroborates this trend. 

Canon is selling less total units, Sony is selling more total units, Nikon is bleeding bad. Canon's ILC sales are stagnant, Nikons are dropping, Sony is increasing.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 9, 2019)

Photo Hack said:


> Your use of ILC market share vs my references of total market share doesn't contradict the claim that Canon users are buying Sony cameras, whether it's switching systems completely or shooting both (my original rebuttal to your comment). That is the basic claim made by a lot of people is it not?


I never claimed that Canon users aren’t buying Sony MILCs. I’m sure some are, and some are switching to Nikon. I’m sure Sony users are switching to Canon and Nikon, and Nikon users are switching to Sony and Canon. Canon, Nikon and Sony users are switching to Panasonic, Olympus and Fuji, and vice versa. I bet someone even bought a Leica ILC.

My point was and remains that Canon has not lost ILC market share in recent years. Therefore, anyone claiming that ‘Canon users are switching to Sony in droves’, that ‘Canon is hemorrhaging users to other brands’, or any of the multitude of similar claims made on this forum, is wrong. 

Of course people are welcome to share their personal observations. But people don’t generally simply do that. Case in point, the post to which I replied stated they see a lot of users switching from Canon and Nikon to Sony in the context of a claim that Canon is ‘way behind’ and is ‘holding onto DSLRs’, implying a connection. The thing is, Canon remains way ahead in sales, and they make the EOS M line which is the best-selling MILC line globally. So his/her post was three piles of bullish!t at once. But subsequent posts made it clear he/she was a troll, so really not worth wasting more time on.

As for the rest of your post, again I note the irony, this time in your repeated references to ‘context’. You are touting Sony’s recent gain of market share. The context for that is that Sony had ~13-14% ILC market share when they stopped DSLRs, and switched to MILCs a decade ago, and up until about two years ago they held steady at ~14% market share. Then they gained ~3% share over the next year before losing ~0.5% last year. You’re touting a gain from 14% to 17% for Sony while Canon maintains nearly 50% of the ILC market. Context.


----------



## SecureGSM (Sep 9, 2019)

unfocused said:


> I doubt very much you will see five full frame mirrorless cameras from Canon -- RP, R, High Resolution R, R "X" and your "two card R."
> 
> Canon Rumors Guy seems pretty confident about the high resolution and "X" R bodies, but has not indicated that the Canon you are seeking is likely to materialize. I'm also not sure Canon agrees about the importance of a second card slot. They could follow a shortened release schedule and come out with an R II sometime in late 2021 or early 2022.


Noted. But 5D is substantial more weather proofed than R and built to a higher standards. Canon understand wedding / events folks requirements to well to ignore this. 
Single card slot issue can be addressed. Weather proofing to 5D level is a must though.


----------



## CvH (Sep 9, 2019)

LensFungus said:


> Last Friday in November. Well, someone could get really good camera deals on Sunday or Cyber Monday which would be both in December but most of the good deals should be already be gone.



Thank you! So most online stores will be on specials on Black Friday? I gathered that includes other stuff such as tripod heads?


----------



## CvH (Sep 9, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Not necessarily. With big ticket, specialty items like cameras, the market gets very fluid in Nov-Dec. Best just to watch Canon Price Watch and see how the deals develop.



What about accessories such as tripods and tripod heads?


----------



## abnagfab (Sep 9, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Do you wear glasses when using the camera? Does the diopter work just as well with evf as it does with ovf?


I have glasses, and the R EVF works perfectly, diopter is fine. Even better, the EVF can show shot previews and everything the back screen shows, so I never have to take my glasses off to see what’s going on - I just keep glued to the EVF. Can even playback the photos in the EVF, set menu items, anything!

The R is better than the 5D4 in almost every way. I tried to go back on my last trip, and it highlighted how much more I enjoy shooting with the R.

Dual slots not an issue for me personally, would love faster frame rate, IBIS seems neat but not critical, higher rez would be awesome.


----------



## CvH (Sep 9, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> Looks like it does just fine.
> Those complaining are just trying to find an excuse for lack of talent and skill. So they blame the camera. You have shown that with skill and talent it is the photographer not the camera. Thank you for the great examples and perhaps those with complaints will work on skill set rather than blame the camera for their failures.



I gathered all the pros just get the RP and will be fine as they are all have plenty of skills and experience?? And if they couldn’t nailed the shots then that’s failure on their part.


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## Ozarker (Sep 9, 2019)

Chz said:


> Sorry, when exactly is Black Friday?


The day after Thanksgiving in the USA.


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## Gözler (Sep 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> We saw it last year, it is called the EOS R.


Upgrade a $3.5k camera to a $1.5k camera? Sorry I am not buying it  Not in the same league.


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## CvH (Sep 9, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> The day after Thanksgiving in the USA.



Thanks! I’m from Australia. Thanksgiving is November 28th, so will look out for any specials on tripod heads.


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## vjlex (Sep 9, 2019)

Gözler said:


> Upgrade a $3.5k camera to a $1.5k camera? Sorry I am not buying it  Not in the same league.


While I agree with you in sentiment, it is definitely in the same league, and better in many respects. That being said, I upgrade bodies only once every 4 years or so. The R is not enough of an upgrade to justify the next 4 years nor replacing my 5D4.


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## Ozarker (Sep 9, 2019)

*sigh* I truly do not understand all the hate the R gets in nearly every single thread. It seems, though, that it is mostly from people who've never tried one. So, in my opinion, their comments don't matter one bit. Watch all the YouTube click bait reviews you want. Go out of your way to act like you know what you are talking about and feed off each other's rancid ignorance. Is the R meant to be a sports/wildlife speed demon? No. Then again, neither is the 5D Mark IV. For what I do, the R is near perfect and a real steal at it's current price.


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## rjbray01 (Sep 9, 2019)

Chz said:


> I gathered all the pros just get the RP and will be fine as they are all have plenty of skills and experience?? And if they couldn’t nailed the shots then that’s failure on their part.



Or to put it another way, if you aren't a highly skilled or experienced photographer then all the Sony bells and whistles are well worth having to help to compensate for that !


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## Mr Majestyk (Sep 9, 2019)

I'd be happy with a true 5D4 replacement with 25% better AF before 2021 and 36MP, 12fps.


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## Viggo (Sep 9, 2019)

rjbray01 said:


> Well firstly the Eos R doesn't have IBIS
> 
> Secondly it has a slow and low resolution viewfinder
> 
> ...


First off, where did I quote “IBIS”?

Second of all, if you use Tony as a reliable source I’m out. Time and time again he’s just so off the mark it’s just sad.

When I have about 97 shots out of 100 in any given setting dead on sharp on the eyes no matter subject, light or situation how can that be significantly worse than anything? Sony’s are not always 100% hit, I’ve seen that a lot of times. I also see that people have a VERY different idea what critically sharp is, I’m the picky one.

All of these claims from Tony and others that don’t like the R is seriously fake news, or as likely, they haven’t used them enough to figure out how to get the optimal result. One example is DPReview that always leave a camera at default and then complain. Useless.

If the R doesn’t meet your needs or of someone doesn’t like it, fine, I have no problem with that. But when they lie to make that point I have a problem with that.


----------



## CDR (Sep 9, 2019)

I am also an ageing wildlife enthusiast, but took the plunge at the start of the year to sell my 1Dx for an R. My primary reason was that I was finding the 1Dx with the 300 2.8 + convertor too heavy to lug around / handhold but also the video on the mk1 was very basic. I also kept my 7D11 as my second camera. As many have said before me it's a steep learning curve, but I have very little regrets at all with this move. It's not a sports action camera ánd was never promoted as such, mainly because of the EVF refresh rate but also as the FPS is not great. These days I tend to have my 100-400 on the 7D11 and the 300 2.8 fixed to the R.

Luckily I am right eye dominant and I find using the back screen for AF positioning far better than the limited AF points on the 7D11 and since firmware 1.2 I find myself using the tracking option (without eye AF) a great option as long as the background is not cluttered / messy and am really hoping 1.4 will enhance this further. To me I just love the IQ of the R over the 7D11 and over 90% of the time reach for the R first.

I simply can't afford to switch systems on a whim although my dream would be that Canon releases a 7R type camera (R and 7D11 hybrid) and an RF 200-600 prosumer type lens (a la Sony). But if that happens it will certainly be the 7D11 that goes first....


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## Otara (Sep 9, 2019)

I just got to see the EOS R with the latest firmware 1.4? at a Canon experience store, its quite an an improvement. AF points move far more smoothly and screen refresh with burst shooting much better too. Said end of the month for download release.

Also got to have a go for an hour with the 90D and M6 II, very interesting and confirmed Ive pretty much converted to mirrorless - Im too used to its control set now. The screen refresh, AF and shooting speed is very nice on the M6, and the 30 raw burst option was fascinating. The 90D felt slow by comparison and the VF blackout was quite noticeable. Was a nicer fit in the hands though.

I feel pretty confident about Canons direction with mirrorless.


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## Srit67 (Sep 9, 2019)

Thank god I sold all my Canon gear! 2021, lol, seriously


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## Srit67 (Sep 9, 2019)

Canon1966 said:


> I would like a canon with sony specs...


Just switch to Sony and be happy again.


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## rjbray01 (Sep 9, 2019)

Viggo said:


> First off, where did I quote “IBIS”?
> 
> Second of all, if you use Tony as a reliable source I’m out. Time and time again he’s just so off the mark it’s just sad.
> 
> ...



I think calling Tony Northrup a liar in public is going way too far. 

You could even be open to legal action.

Can you actually highlight a single definite lie told by Tony Northrup ?

Before you answer can I suggest you use a dictionary to make sure you know what a lie is.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 9, 2019)

Viggo said:


> First off, where did I quote “IBIS”?
> 
> Second of all, if you use Tony as a reliable source I’m out. Time and time again he’s just so off the mark it’s just sad.
> 
> ...


These people are nuts. They watch YouTube videos and then become experts concerning a product they have never even touched. My hit rate is so incredibly high I can hardly believe it. I know nothing about the 5D Mark IV (So I rightly keep my mouth shut about it), but my ex-5D Mark III could never come close to the R. Comparing an old M5 to the R just seems silly to me. Tony won "Sexiest Geek Alive" in 2000 (lol), but that doesn't mean he knows anything. I think the viewfinder is plenty fast and very high resolution. While IBIS would be cool, I've lived without it and without IS on many lenses (EF 35mm f/1.4L II, EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II, EF 400mm f/5.6L, and over 40 MF vintage lenses.).

Viggo, I knew the R didn't have IBIS when I bought it. You did too. We decided to buy anyway. That was our decision, and from what I gather, we are happy as Larks. It amazes me that people watch YouTube and are then experts. Really, the cad should just go buy the Sony he really wants.. Either way, he won't be any better a photographer no matter what feature is or is not in a camera. If his 5D Mark IV is so great, then why is he even arguing against the R to begin with? Hmmmm... maybe he looks at spec sheets and sees where the R beats the 5D Mark IV in so many categories and costs far less? Does the 5D Mark IV have IBIS?









Canon R vs Canon 5D MIV Detailed Comparison


Read our detailed comparison of the Canon EOS R vs Canon EOS 5D Mark IV to find out their strengths and weaknesses, and decide which one to choose.



cameradecision.com


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 9, 2019)

Srit67 said:


> Just switch to Sony and be happy again.


For reals. All he has to buy is the Sony body and adapt his EF glass.


----------



## Valvebounce (Sep 9, 2019)

Hi Folks. 
I met a guy a couple of weeks ago that had just bought his first ever camera (even he didn’t consider a phone to be a camera!) an EOS 800D,  therefore I can prove a 50% increase in Canon ILC camera sales! * 

*in the hide at Alverstone where there were only the two of us at the time of the conversation. 

Cheers, Graham. 
= sarcasm off=



neuroanatomist said:


> I referred above, as I nearly always do, to the relative market shares for *interchangeable lens* cameras (“ILC market share”). Canon has maintained a ~49% share of the ILC market for the past few years, up from ~48% a few years ago, up from ~44% a decade ago. Canon’s ILC market share is relatively simple to estimate, since Canon publishes their unit sales data with their financials and CIPA publishes production and shipment data for the ILC market as a whole (I use ‘estimate’ because units sold are not identical to units produced/shipped, but they are likely to be approximately equivalent).
> 
> You are referring to and citing articles discussing *digital camera* market share, i.e. ILCs *and* compact cameras (aka point-and-shoot) *combined*. Given the nature of our discussions on this forum in general and my points in particular, considering the P&S market (which is essentially losing out to smartphones) is not logical. More importantly, I explicitly (and repeatedly) stated above, “*ILC* market share,” rendering your statements based on total digital camera market share tangential and useless as counterarguments. Ironic that you accuse me of intellectual dishonestly when it is, in fact, you being intellectually dishonest.
> 
> I’m sorry that you either don’t comprehend the terminology relevant to the discussion or are simply unable to read properly, but either way that’s really your problem, not mine.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 9, 2019)

rjbray01 said:


> I think, to be fair, its only natural that when we who have invested heavily in Canon equipment, and love it, cannot help but be very envious when we see that Sony are bringing out features which would improve our photographs and our experience of taking them.
> 
> IBIS
> 
> ...


Yup, normal because you think features in a camera body will improve your photographs. They won't.


----------



## rjbray01 (Sep 9, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> These people are nuts. They watch YouTube videos and then become experts concerning a product they have never even touched. My hit rate is so incredibly high I can hardly believe it. I know nothing about the 5D Mark IV (So I rightly keep my mouth shut about it), but my ex-5D Mark III could never come close to the R. Comparing an old M5 to the R just seems silly to me. Tony won "Sexiest Geek Alive" in 2000 (lol), but that doesn't mean he knows anything. I think the viewfinder is plenty fast and very high resolution. While IBIS would be cool, I've lived without it and without IS on many lenses (EF 35mm f/1.4L II, EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II, EF 400mm f/5.6L, and over 40 MF vintage lenses.).
> 
> Viggo, I knew the R didn't have IBIS when I bought it. You did too. We decided to buy anyway. That was our decision, and from what I gather, we are happy as Larks. It amazes me that people watch YouTube and are then experts. Really, the cad should just go buy the Sony he really wants.. Either way, he won't be any better a photographer no matter what feature is or is not in a camera. If his 5D Mark IV is so great, then why is he even arguing against the R to begin with? Hmmmm... maybe he looks at spec sheets and sees where the R beats the 5D Mark IV in so many categories and costs far less? Does the 5D Mark IV have IBIS?
> 
> ...



i am a hobbyist not a professional and a hobby which is only 4 years old at that 

Whilst im sure professionals have no need to rely on advice - those of us with little experience really value the advice and information we get from internet reviews and tutorials 

I follow people line Tony Northrup, Thomas Heaton, Dustin Abbot and Jared Polin and believe all of them to be honourable people with integrity and experience upon which I can rely. Rarely do they dramatically disagree with each other which lends credibility.

My point is simple - that Sony are clearly ahead of Canon and have features which I would like to have 

As much as im tempted to buy a Sony body im not at all convinced that adapting my EF glass is an ideal solution and I don't have the financial resources to switch to Sony glass

So I have to wait until Canon catch up

Perhaps I am being over cautious and the R is a wonderful camera but is there anyone out there who has tested the A7R 3 and 4 against the Eos R and is seriously saying the EOS R has eye AF which is just as good ? Or a comparable viewfinder ? 

And I would very very much like IBIS for my primes in low light 

Calm down ... It's just one man's opinion about why im waiting and frustrated - no need to let your personality become monstrous !


----------



## Srit67 (Sep 9, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> For reals. All he has to buy is the Sony body and adapt his EF glass.


Yeah I tried that also the result is I'm now selling a 400 f2.8 IS II cause it tracks like shite with the MC11. I got tired of Canon always behind with the bodies eventually sold everything and now happier than ever. Maybe if I was a professional sports shooter I would have kept my 1Dx MII simply for durability but the thing is a tank and is not practical to carry around.


----------



## rjbray01 (Sep 9, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Yup, normal because you think features in a camera body will improve your photographs. They won't.


Well I beg to differ 

Welcome to the modern world of autofocus 

In the real world most people use auto focus

And if one camera nails the focus and another fails then im confident that the first camera will take better pictures 

No matter how great the subject and composition it's very disappointed to find that just when your model/wife/son/daughter had a lovely smile on their face the camera missed focus 

Honestly I do wonder sometimes why people are so narrow minded


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 9, 2019)

rjbray01 said:


> i am a hobbyist not a professional and a hobby which is only 4 years old at that
> 
> Whilst im sure professionals have no need to rely on advice - those of us with little experience really value the advice and information we get from internet reviews and tutorials
> 
> ...


I am also a hobbyist with very limited funds. Dustin Abbott is the greatest, in my opinion. However, I worked today with a guy that went from Canon to Sony. He adapted his EF glass. Now he's switching back to the R. My point was that no camera will make our photos better. You should go down to the local shop and see whether you like the feel of the Sony in your hands and see if you can live with that, their abysmal service, and horrible menus.

The 5D Mark IV is a nice camera. I don't see that you'd be in a rush either way. I disagree that Sony is ahead of Canon. Especially when it comes to glass, ergonomics, and service. I get very nice photos from the R, but not because it is the R.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 9, 2019)

rjbray01 said:


> Well I beg to differ
> 
> Welcome to the modern world of autofocus
> 
> ...


Well, I own an R. The AF is spectacular. You don't own an R and neither does Tony. Who's narrow minded? Wow.


----------



## rjbray01 (Sep 9, 2019)

rjbray01 said:


> Well I beg to differ
> 
> Welcome to the modern world of autofocus
> 
> ...



I might add that IBIS results in less noise in low light hand held situations too ... 

Again - better picture quality 

To me photography isn't a competitive sport - it's not about how great I am 

It's about taking good pictures and if a camera can help improve my images then that's a good thing from my point of view


----------



## rjbray01 (Sep 9, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Well, I own an R. The AF is spectacular. You don't own an R and neither does Tony. Who's narrow minded? Wow.



If R AF is spectacular then that's a great thing and that's why im reading stuff on this forum 

Im looking forward to people telling me that the Canon IBIS and viewfinder is also spectacular too


----------



## AlanF (Sep 9, 2019)

rjbray01 said:


> I might add that IBIS results in less noise in low light hand held situations too ...
> ...


How does IBIS lower noise?


----------



## Otara (Sep 9, 2019)

The AF is getting updated on the R in September, the 'before' in this video shows how its not necessarily 'spectacular' but its also of course trying to show the improvement is as big as possible.

There have been a few updates regarding AF, so any comments by anyone should be checked for dates to see how relevant they are now.


----------



## rjbray01 (Sep 9, 2019)

AlanF said:


> How does IBIS lower noise?



Correct me if im wrong but if im taking a picture indoors with a wide open aperture then IBIS will allow the shutter to open for longer and more photons will arrive at the sensor as a result, thus requiring less signal amplification (ISO) and hence less noise 

Obviously it is conditional on my subject remaining still 

I haven't actually used a camera with IBIS but I find the lens stabilization on my relatively new Canon EF 85 1.4L IS has allowed me to take pictures with significantly longer exposure times and I've been very happy with the images ... I have sigma 50mm and 135mm art lenses and would love to be able to benefit from IBIS stabilization in the same way


----------



## AlanF (Sep 9, 2019)

rjbray01 said:


> Correct me if im wrong but if im taking a picture indoors with a wide open aperture then IBIS will allow the shutter to open for longer and more photons will arrive at the sensor as a result, thus requiring less signal amplification (ISO) and hence less noise
> 
> Obviously it is conditional on my subject remaining still
> 
> I haven't actually used a camera with IBIS but I find the lens stabilization on my relatively new Canon EF 85 1.4L IS has allowed me to take pictures with significantly longer exposure times and I've been very happy with the images ... I have sigma 50mm and 135mm art lenses and would love to be able to benefit from IBIS stabilization in the same way


I see what you are getting at.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 9, 2019)

Otara said:


> The AF is getting updated on the R in September, the 'before' in this video shows how its not necessarily 'spectacular' but its also of course trying to show the improvement is as big as possible.
> 
> There have been a few updates regarding AF, so any comments by anyone should be checked for dates to see how relevant they are now.


The capture of moving subjects looks a significant improvement. The shots had the focus square already focussed in advance of where the bike was going to appear. Would it work without that pre-focussing and all the focal points active?


----------



## Otara (Sep 9, 2019)

Im not sure, but the initial lock with an AF point seemed pretty quick when I was checking it with cars. I suspect the same visual issue of it being harder to see OOF subjects will be there though regarding initial acquisition, Ill have another look on Wed, Im hoping to get back there.

The M6 AF seemed pretty fast too, but no options to change lockon priority etc. 14 FPS with servo was impressive, and it just had little skips with each shot, it was very easy to track with it.


----------



## rjbray01 (Sep 9, 2019)

Thanks 


CanonFanBoy said:


> I am also a hobbyist with very limited funds. Dustin Abbott is the greatest, in my opinion. However, I worked today with a guy that went from Canon to Sony. He adapted his EF glass. Now he's switching back to the R. My point was that no camera will make our photos better. You should go down to the local shop and see whether you like the feel of the Sony in your hands and see if you can live with that, their abysmal service, and horrible menus.
> 
> The 5D Mark IV is a nice camera. I don't see that you'd be in a rush either way. I disagree that Sony is ahead of Canon. Especially when it comes to glass, ergonomics, and service. I get very nice photos from the R, but not because it is the R.


Thanks for the advice - I have to admit I am tempted to buy one but a big part of me tells me to be patient and hold on to my money and hope that Canon bring out a reasonably priced model with IBIS and an EVF comparable to the new Sony A7R4 and Panasonic


----------



## AlanF (Sep 9, 2019)

Otara said:


> Im not sure, but the initial lock with an AF point seemed pretty quick when I was checking it with cars. I suspect the same visual issue of it being harder to see OOF subjects will be there though regarding initial acquisition, Ill have another look on Wed, Im hoping to get back there.
> 
> The M6 AF seemed pretty fast too, but no options to change lockon priority etc. 14 FPS with servo was impressive, and it just had little skips with each shot, it was very easy to track with it.


Nikon and Sony AF (on certain bodies) is able to detect movement and pinpoint focus on what is moving, which is just what you want for capturing a flying bird or other fast moving object against a background. If Canon can now do the same it would be a breakthrough I have been hoping for.


----------



## Otara (Sep 9, 2019)

It looks like that is what its doing, but its pretty clearly a very favourable setup, with a very clear distinction between subject and foreground. I look forward to checking it out in practise.


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## scyrene (Sep 9, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> *sigh* I truly do not understand all the hate the R gets in nearly every single thread. It seems, though, that it is mostly from people who've never tried one. So, in my opinion, their comments don't matter one bit. Watch all the YouTube click bait reviews you want. Go out of your way to act like you know what you are talking about and feed off each other's rancid ignorance. Is the R meant to be a sports/wildlife speed demon? No. Then again, neither is the 5D Mark IV. For what I do, the R is near perfect and a real steal at it's current price.



Great work. What lens(es) did you use for these?


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## SecureGSM (Sep 9, 2019)

AlanF said:


> How does IBIS lower noise?


by affording to shoot at a lower ISOs with a slower shutter speed?


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 9, 2019)

rjbray01 said:


> I think calling Tony Northrup a liar in public is going way too far.
> 
> You could even be open to legal action.
> 
> ...


First off, @Viggo called Northrup ‘unreliable’ and ‘off the mark’. If you believe that equates to stating he has lied, then you are the one who needs to consult a dictionary for a definition of the word ‘lie’. 

I watched one TN video, a review of the 5DIII, where he compared it to the D810. He found the Nikon to have better AF on his ‘sports test’ (which was his subject walking sedately toward him, LOL), and he concluded that that the D810 is the best camera, but the 5DIII is probably ok if you're not a pro and you just post your pics to Facebook. Do you believe that’s a true statement?

In a ‘review’ of the 7DII, Northrup stated that cropping a 5DIII to the FoV of the 7DII gives a 14 MP image. Do you believe that’s a true statement?

If you answered yes to either of the above questions, you should probably also consult a dictionary for the definition of the word ‘truth’.

Northrup produces “entertainment“ and he has the technical competence of a turnip. Feel free to threaten me with legal action on his behalf.


----------



## rbielefeld (Sep 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Given that Canon is not losing ILC market share to Sony, what you see doesn’t match reality.


It does not match reality yet. I own a wildlife photography day tour and workshop business and I too have seen Sony come on strong among my clients over the past couple of years. Prior to this, Nikon and Canon systems were all I saw on my tours. This change in the systems my clients are using caused me to get a Sony a9, so I could learn and speak these clients' "language" while on tours with them. Now that Sony has a 200-600mm and 600 f/4 available it may cause more wildlife photographers to make the change that would not do so before these lenses became available. The Sony a9, and soon the Sony a9II, are and will be very capable wildlife photography cameras as will be the a7RIV (very much in the same league as the Canon 1DXII and 5DMIV). My clients who shoot Sony (and use to shoot Nikon or Canon DSLRs) like mirrorless and the advantages it brings to the table over DSLRs (e.g., no blackout EVF, WYSIWYG exposure through the EVF, being able to shoot video through the EVF, AF points that span almost the entire frame, AI AF tracking capabilities). I have shot Canon for a long time and I love the 1DxII and 5DIV, but I also see the future in what the Sony a9 brings to the table in a mirrorless body now that I have been shooting one for several months along side my 1DxII and 5DIV. The AI AF tracking makes getting shots like those below almost easy compared to what it takes using my 1DxII. I do believe Canon will soon bring a mirrorless camera to market that will rival the Sony a9/a9II, but if they falter I do wonder if what I have seen recently among my clients does not continue to pick up steam. I know I will get the Sony a9II if Canon does not bring a true high-speed, action mirrorless to the market within the next couple of years.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 9, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> by affording to shoot at a lower ISOs with a slower shutter speed?


Sometimes it can. The more important use of IBIS is to lower shake.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> First off, @Viggo called Northrup ‘unreliable’ and ‘off the mark’. If you believe that equates to stating he has lied, then you are the one who needs to consult a dictionary for a definition of the word ‘lie’.
> 
> I watched one TN video, a review of the 5DIII, where he compared it to the D810. He found the Nikon to have better AF on his ‘sports test’ (which was his subject walking sedately toward him, LOL), and he concluded that that the D810 is the best camera, but the 5DIII is probably ok if you're not a pro and you just post your pics to Facebook. Do you believe that’s a true statement?
> 
> ...


Given the past comments about TN on CR and my own viewing of him, most here would agree with you. Trouble is, our leaders on both sides of the pond are now openly accused of being liars.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 9, 2019)

AlanF said:


> How does IBIS lower noise?


In the same way that a tripod lowers noise.  

Personally, in almost all situations where I could use a lower shutter speed such that IBIS would offer benefit at a given focal length, I could also use a tripod. At focal lengths with my typical subjects where my handheld shooting would benefit from stabilization, the lenses I use are already image stabilized. 

While I certainly wouldn’t turn IBIS down if it were an offered feature, I personally would not derive much benefit from it for most of my photography.


----------



## Del Paso (Sep 9, 2019)

Joe Subolefsky said:


> I have an R and like it a lot. That said I’ve already sold my 5DIV and 1DX and will pickup the next Canon mirrorless body out if its a 5D style or 1DX.
> A few samples shot with my R.


Who said the EOS R wasn't suited for wildlife shots? Your pictures have proven the opposite!
Excellent pictures!


----------



## rjbray01 (Sep 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> First off, @Viggo called Northrup ‘unreliable’ and ‘off the mark’. If you believe that equates to stating he has lied, then you are the one who needs to consult a dictionary for a definition of the word ‘lie’.
> 
> I watched one TN video, a review of the 5DIII, where he compared it to the D810. He found the Nikon to have better AF on his ‘sports test’ (which was his subject walking sedately toward him, LOL), and he concluded that that the D810 is the best camera, but the 5DIII is probably ok if you're not a pro and you just post your pics to Facebook. Do you believe that’s a true statement?
> 
> ...


A quick search of a dictionary definition of a lie from my chrome browser in the UK leads me to the definition

"an intentionally false statement"

In order to qualify as a lie the subject must be acting with knowledgeable intention 

Expressing a subjective opinion is quite different


----------



## rjbray01 (Sep 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> In the same way that a tripod lowers noise.
> 
> Personally, in almost all situations where I could use a lower shutter speed such that IBIS would offer benefit at a given focal length, I could also use a tripod. At focal lengths with my typical subjects where my handheld shooting would benefit from stabilization, the lenses I use are already image stabilized.
> 
> While I certainly wouldn’t turn IBIS down if it were an offered feature, I personally would not derive much benefit from it for most of my photography.



Indeed for some people who have the luxury of being able to set up a tripod then IBIS is probably a poor substitute

Getting my kids not to pull an angry face when I take their pictures is hard enough 

Trying to do that and use a tripod is never ever going to happen !!


----------



## AlanF (Sep 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> In the same way that a tripod lowers noise.
> 
> Personally, in almost all situations where I could use a lower shutter speed such that IBIS would offer benefit at a given focal length, I could also use a tripod. At focal lengths with my typical subjects where my handheld shooting would benefit from stabilization, the lenses I use are already image stabilized.
> 
> While I certainly wouldn’t turn IBIS down if it were an offered feature, I personally would not derive much benefit from it for most of my photography.


Same here for my type of photography. Lens-based IS is by the most important for telephoto lenses, although IBIS can add a stop or so for systems that can marry it with the lens. Secondly, I don't like going below 1/250s for shots where anything live is concerned because of its movement. But the primary purpose of IBIS is to minimise shake - noise can be adequately dealt with PP nowadays but motion blur is the killer.

Just remembered an article by Ari Hazeghi, http://arihazeghiphotography.com/blog/focus-micro-adjustment-is-it-always-needed/, where he likes to keep above 1/1000s for perched birds but will go down to 1/250s.


----------



## slclick (Sep 9, 2019)

rjbray01 said:


> A quick search of a dictionary definition of a lie from my chrome browser in the UK leads me to the definition
> 
> "an intentionally false statement"
> 
> ...



Tony is an entertainer and will say many things which rub logic and truth the wrong way in order to get upvotes and clicks.Photography is not the sexy conversation topic without wild insinuations and claims, it's a visual format and speaking about it is sometimes like watching paint dry so in order to have a successful YouTube product, you have to insert a certain degree of eyebrow raising, not to mention his sex sells angle of Chelsea. She isn't his foil he'd want you to believe, she's his eye candy. There are many more reasoned and balanced reviewers of camera products out there from which you can glean product knowledge. They don't get many mentions around here because it's always the negative we talk about, i.e. restaurant reviews....No one here is saying everything out of his mouth is a lie, he has had some very valuable (for beginners) and informative videos yet he isn't the consummate professional he would want you to believe.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 9, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> It does not match reality yet.



These are nice photos, it's refreshing to see turnstones in flight! But I would point out that people have been coming to these forums for many years proclaiming that Sony is about to eat Canon's lunch based on whatever the latest releases are, and they have been wrong. I ask repeatedly, _why now_? It seems no matter what technical wizardry Sony offers, something about Canon - be it their marketing, support, lens selection, reliability, or whatever - keeps them on top. It's not guaranteed to last forever, but I simply don't see anything that would reverse the companies' positions any time soon, the purported advantages of one over the other simply aren't enough.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 9, 2019)

Joe Subolefsky said:


> I have an R and like it a lot. That said I’ve already sold my 5DIV and 1DX and will pickup the next Canon mirrorless body out if its a 5D style or 1DX.
> A few samples shot with my R.


They are very nice shots and I like them a lot. However, I am not moving to Canon mirrorless until they get a higher resolution sensor because I personally prefer the images of birds from the 5DSR to those from my 5DIV, and the 5DIV has the same sensor as the R. That said, I don't want it to detract from the excellence of your images.


----------



## HikeBike (Sep 9, 2019)

Drcampbellicu said:


> I view the R as a good casual camera and not for anything demanding
> I understand why some people love it
> It’s basically the mirrorless Rebel
> 
> But it’s annoying when it’s discussed as anything high end.


I can't argue with that, because that's exactly what I use it for. 

I wouldn't reduce it to a mirrorless Rebel, but I get your point.


----------



## rbielefeld (Sep 9, 2019)

scyrene said:


> These are nice photos, it's refreshing to see turnstones in flight! But I would point out that people have been coming to these forums for many years proclaiming that Sony is about to eat Canon's lunch based on whatever the latest releases are, and they have been wrong. I ask repeatedly, _why now_? It seems no matter what technical wizardry Sony offers, something about Canon - be it their marketing, support, lens selection, reliability, or whatever - keeps them on top. It's not guaranteed to last forever, but I simply don't see anything that would reverse the companies' positions any time soon, the purported advantages of one over the other simply aren't enough.


Agreed. They have not been enough given the robustness of Canon's overall system. That situation may well last for a long time into the future. I was just bringing to the table my experiences with my clients. I never saw any shift in the past, I am seeing one now and it is not subtle. Only time will tell where all these companies stand in the future. I love Canon products and I really want Canon to bring a true action/wildlife mirrorless to market soon as mirrorless does bring advantages to my photography.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Northrup produces “entertainment“ and he has the technical competence of a turnip. Feel free to threaten me with legal action on his behalf.



I was watching him occasionally and was noticing some errors here and there until that hilarious video about diffraction. He seemed to not have any idea of what he was talking about. It was absolutely unbearable, I stopped watching his channel at all.

I'm not discussing Tony's photography skills but his technical and scientific explanations are often incorrect and misleading.


----------



## SteveC (Sep 9, 2019)

The implicit assumption behind "Canon is *******" statements is that Canon is sitting on their hands doing nothing.

IF that assumption were true, of course Canon would be *******; they'd still be offering their current level of camera in 2030 and would be dinosaurs by then.

But there's simply no way in heck that Canon is doing nothing; the releases of the M6II and 90D show they're nailing many of the things people are complaining about.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 9, 2019)

rjbray01 said:


> A quick search of a dictionary definition of a lie from my chrome browser in the UK leads me to the definition
> 
> "an intentionally false statement"
> 
> ...


So by your own definition, @Viggo did not accuse TN of lying. Would you also care to retract your ridiculous assertion that @Viggo could be subject to legal action for his non-accusation? 

You also stated:


rjbray01 said:


> I follow people line Tony Northrup, Thomas Heaton, Dustin Abbot and Jared Polin and believe all of them to be honourable people with integrity and experience upon which I can rely. Rarely do they dramatically disagree with each other which lends credibility.



As long as you are aware that you’re relying on the integrity and experience of someone who makes asinine assertions (‘the 5DIII is ok if all you’re doing is posting to Facebook’) and either doesn’t understand how cropping images affects resolution (FF to APS-C FoV reduces output MP by 1.6^2= 2.56, not by 1.6) or can’t do simple math (22 / 2.56 ≠ 14), then by all means continue to rely on TN for your information.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 9, 2019)

slclick said:


> he has had some very valuable (for beginners) and informative videos yet he isn't the consummate professional he would want you to believe.



Great description although I'd argue whether his videos are informative. There's certainly some information but with a high level misinformation in it, simply unreliable.
No doubt it's all well presented but in many cases it's a simple profanation.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 9, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I was watching him occasionally and was noticing some errors here and there until that hilarious video about diffraction. He seemed to not have any idea of what he was talking about. It was absolutely unbearable, I stopped watching his channel at all.
> 
> I'm not discussing Tony's photography skills but his technical and scientific explanations are often incorrect and misleading.


+1...as I stated, he has the technical competence of a turnip.


----------



## SteveC (Sep 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> +1...as I stated, he has the technical competence of a turnip.



I'd be careful. You might be subject to legal action from the Turnip Anti-Defamation League.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 9, 2019)

SteveC said:


> I'd be careful. You might be subject to legal action from the Turnip Anti-Defamation League.



Nothing to worry about, they have horseradish as lawyers.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 9, 2019)

SteveC said:


> The implicit assumption behind "Canon is *******" statements is that Canon is sitting on their hands doing nothing.
> 
> IF that assumption were true, of course Canon would be *******; they'd still be offering their current level of camera in 2030 and would be dinosaurs by then.
> 
> But there's simply no way in heck that Canon is doing nothing; the releases of the M6II and 90D show they're nailing many of the things people are complaining about.



Speculations about release dates are entertaining. But whether or not Canon is ******* is irrelevant to me. I'm waiting for a high-res FF camera from Canon and I can wait, but at some point I feel I may fall a victim of GAS and buy Sony A7RIV, if Canon doesn't deliver. 

Anyway, had everyone been focusing on their personal needs, not global Canon's performance and future, this forum would have been much calmer and constructive.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 9, 2019)

SteveC said:


> I'd be careful. You might be subject to legal action from the Turnip Anti-Defamation League.


If your eyes aren't quite in focus, Turnip can be misread for guess who...


----------



## Architect1776 (Sep 9, 2019)

Chz said:


> I gathered all the pros just get the RP and will be fine as they are all have plenty of skills and experience?? And if they couldn’t nailed the shots then that’s failure on their part.



Sounds exactly right.


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## Ozarker (Sep 9, 2019)

Srit67 said:


> Thank god I sold all my Canon gear! 2021, lol, seriously


Thanks for signing up to tell us.


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## Ozarker (Sep 9, 2019)

scyrene said:


> Great work. What lens(es) did you use for these?


Right now I have the RF 28-70 f/2L and RF 85 f/1.2L.


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## cayenne (Sep 9, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> I think that makes sense. Even Sony with all their advances in sensor design have not yet brought out a camera that has professionals changing in large numbers which suggests that mirrorless still has issues at some level. I am finding it difficult to believe that Canon would bring out a 'mirrorless 1Dx' with the proviso 'this is the advance you have been waiting for but it will not perform as well as your 5 year old 1Dx2'.
> However, a 1Dx3 DSLR would have pros upgrading pretty quickly and, as you say, launching the mirrorless version as a back up with specific mirrorless-based advantages of its own.



If this were the case as you alluded to.....what do you think the market price for the used previous model of the 1D DSLR would be?
And since these ARE used as work horses, would most of them be too battle word to buy used? How is the best way to gauge if it still has plenty of 'life' left in it?

Just pondering some thoughts...

C


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## scyrene (Sep 9, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Right now I have the RF 28-70 f/2L and RF 85 f/1.2L.



Thanks! They're showing their class.


----------



## digigal (Sep 9, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> Agreed. They have not been enough given the robustness of Canon's overall system. That situation may well last for a long time into the future. I was just bringing to the table my experiences with my clients. I never saw any shift in the past, I am seeing one now and it is not subtle. Only time will tell where all these companies stand in the future. I love Canon products and I really want Canon to bring a true action/wildlife mirrorless to market soon as mirrorless does bring advantages to my photography.


This is exactly what I have seen over the last couple of years in the photography community that I'm acquainted with consisting of ~200 serious amateur/professional photographers. From their stories, however, many have found a lot of improvement in in the Sony areas that they felt Canon cameras were behind (sensor noise, tracking, file size, etc) but some have been disappointed at the lack of robustness, no repair support, etc. Some have felt that it's almost like they treat a $3K camera as a "disposable" when it comes to repair. One friend had the main circuit board go out on his 1yr old a9 and Sony gave him a list of 4 independent repair outfits he could check out to send his camera to and they didn't even have the part to repair it. I think that the lack of robustness and lack of any significant repair and support facility will prevent Sony from penetrating the pro market anytime soon the way Canon has. I doesn't matter how much better or special your camera is, if there's a chance that when it goes down you can't get it replaced quickly, that's a killer for a working pro who has to shoot the game TODAY, so I think the things that go into their equation of what equipment to buy includes the level of support and back-up etc that frequently never enters many amateur's minds.
Catherine


----------



## Viggo (Sep 9, 2019)

digigal said:


> This is exactly what I have seen over the last couple of years in the photography community that I'm acquainted with consisting of ~200 serious amateur/professional photographers. From their stories, however, many have found a lot of improvement in in the Sony areas that they felt Canon cameras were behind (sensor noise, tracking, file size, etc) but some have been disappointed at the lack of robustness, no repair support, etc. Some have felt that it's almost like they treat a $3K camera as a "disposable" when it comes to repair. One friend had the main circuit board go out on his 1yr old a9 and Sony gave him a list of 4 independent repair outfits he could check out to send his camera to and they didn't even have the part to repair it. I think that the lack of robustness and lack of any significant repair and support facility will prevent Sony from penetrating the pro market anytime soon the way Canon has. I doesn't matter how much better or special your camera is, if there's a chance that when it goes down you can't get it replaced quickly, that's a killer for a working pro who has to shoot the game TODAY, so I think the things that go into their equation of what equipment to buy includes the level of support and back-up etc that frequently never enters many amateur's minds.
> Catherine


And this is why I use Broncolor lights also. They are bulletproof and the output and color is 100% consistent and no misfires. And if it was to fall over and die on me, one phone call and they’ll have another one to lend me asap. 

I recently attended a wedding as a guest, but also photographing the party, they had hired a proper photographer also. And being in that kind of stressful environment I can’t for the life of me understand why someone would gamble on gear for weddings. A friend bought Godox and two of his three flashes failed completely after three weddings and left him stranded. I would gladly pay for a A1x if this was my profession, no question about it.


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## Ozarker (Sep 9, 2019)

Viggo said:


> And this is why I use Broncolor lights also. They are bulletproof and the output and color is 100% consistent and no misfires. And if it was to fall over and die on me, one phone call and they’ll have another one to lend me asap.
> 
> I recently attended a wedding as a guest, but also photographing the party, they had hired a proper photographer also. And being in that kind of stressful environment I can’t for the life of me understand why someone would gamble on gear for weddings. A friend bought Godox and two of his three flashes failed completely after three weddings and left him stranded. I would gladly pay for a A1x if this was my profession, no question about it.


You use Broncolor? Can you adopt me? I promise to be a good son.


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## cayenne (Sep 9, 2019)

ronno said:


> Here’s the backup workaround: The EOS R can be set to send *full-size* jpegs to your iPad, cell phone, laptop over WIFI - while shooting RAW to the SD card.
> 
> It works *very fast* (under a second per image), and seems a a reasonable Plan B if you are worried about a card failing.




Having a 2nd card slot, isn't just for redundancy, I used it as a safety net for rolling over if I"m in the 'middle of battle" and run out of space on the 1st card and have it automagically roll over and start shooting on the 2nd card, without me having to stop miss shots, etc. Heck when I've been shooting concert festivals, with noise and excitement, and quick shooting, I might not notice for awhile 1st card had run out, you know?

And same with shooting videos, I've had those roll over for me when in the middle of a run and gun video shoot....so, nice to have it for that.

Just my $0.02,

cayenne


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## rjbray01 (Sep 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> So by your own definition, @Viggo did not accuse TN of lying. Would you also care to retract your ridiculous assertion that @Viggo could be subject to legal action for his non-accusation?
> 
> You also stated:
> 
> ...


I won't bother trawling through the vast swathes of contributions you have made to Canon Rumors for examples but I strongly suspect that you and many other regulars have made their fair share of bloopers 

Doesn't mean you are an idiot - it just means you are human 

I suspect your real issues are more to do with personality issues than anything else

Tony Northrup is clearly passionate and well informed about photography

I don't hold it against him that he throws in controversial eye catching claims from time to time - yes it generates clicks and of course that infuriates some of those people who take themselves very very seriously but honestly many of us look at it with a wry smile - as im sure tony does

His Facebook comment was no doubt that type of humorous quip - of course he is basically right - huge quantities of MP don't matter for FB and it's not worth upgrading to the 5D4 if you don't actually need more pixels - and let's face it very few of us do these days ... 

Chill out 

And if you care to reread the original comment claiming people were lying i think you will be under little doubt who was the target of such accusation 

And for what it's worth i don't have the faintest idea if you can be prosecuted for calling someone a liar on CR but i made my point at least to my own satisfaction


----------



## rjbray01 (Sep 9, 2019)

digigal said:


> This is exactly what I have seen over the last couple of years in the photography community that I'm acquainted with consisting of ~200 serious amateur/professional photographers. From their stories, however, many have found a lot of improvement in in the Sony areas that they felt Canon cameras were behind (sensor noise, tracking, file size, etc) but some have been disappointed at the lack of robustness, no repair support, etc. Some have felt that it's almost like they treat a $3K camera as a "disposable" when it comes to repair. One friend had the main circuit board go out on his 1yr old a9 and Sony gave him a list of 4 independent repair outfits he could check out to send his camera to and they didn't even have the part to repair it. I think that the lack of robustness and lack of any significant repair and support facility will prevent Sony from penetrating the pro market anytime soon the way Canon has. I doesn't matter how much better or special your camera is, if there's a chance that when it goes down you can't get it replaced quickly, that's a killer for a working pro who has to shoot the game TODAY, so I think the things that go into their equation of what equipment to buy includes the level of support and back-up etc that frequently never enters many amateur's minds.
> Catherine



Interesting - I wonder if there is the opportunity here for a major company like lens rentals or adorama to offer a repair service ?


----------



## ronno (Sep 9, 2019)

cayenne said:


> Having a 2nd card slot, isn't just for redundancy, I used it as a safety net for rolling over if I"m in the 'middle of battle" and run out of space on the 1st card and have it automagically roll over and start shooting on the 2nd card, without me having to stop miss shots, etc. Heck when I've been shooting concert festivals, with noise and excitement, and quick shooting, I might not notice for awhile 1st card had run out, you know?
> 
> And same with shooting videos, I've had those roll over for me when in the middle of a run and gun video shoot....so, nice to have it for that.
> 
> ...



Yes roll over space is nice - though cards are huge these days and I don't have a need to change cards much at all.
Anyway my response was to someone asking specifically about backup options with the EOS R...(rather than repeatedly lamenting what the camera does not have...)


----------



## Busted Knuckles (Sep 9, 2019)

Nelu said:


> "Canon also mentions that they’re working on a converter/adapter to turn a mirrorless camera into a DSLR. "
> I would be more interested in an adapter that does it the other way around...


I did this w/ a loop and my T3i "back in the day" was kind of clunky, though it worked well for videos. I hacked a diopter adj for the optical view finder and attached it to the loop. Pretty quick on/off and pretty effective. Slowed the auto focus (live view) but w/ magic lantern, focus peaking was as fast or faster.


----------



## cayenne (Sep 9, 2019)

slclick said:


> ... not to mention his sex sells angle of Chelsea. She isn't his foil he'd want you to believe, she's his eye candy.



Comments removed by Moderator.


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## cayenne (Sep 9, 2019)

ronno said:


> Yes roll over space is nice - though cards are huge these days and I don't have a need to change cards much at all.
> Anyway my response was to someone asking specifically about backup options with the EOS R...(rather than repeatedly lamenting what the camera does not have...)



Mine are 32GB ones....I guess I could go higher, but then again, comes the danger of putting everything on one card and have it fail...even rolling over, spreading over 2 cards gives a little insurance that the whole shoot won't be lost.

But hey, to each his own.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 9, 2019)

cayenne said:


> Having a 2nd card slot, isn't just for redundancy, I used it as a safety net for rolling over if I"m in the 'middle of battle" and run out of space on the 1st card and have it automagically roll over and start shooting on the 2nd card, without me having to stop miss shots, etc. Heck when I've been shooting concert festivals, with noise and excitement, and quick shooting, I might not notice for awhile 1st card had run out, you know?
> 
> And same with shooting videos, I've had those roll over for me when in the middle of a run and gun video shoot....so, nice to have it for that.
> 
> Just my $0.02,


For that purpose, wouldn't a bigger card serve just as well? There are 512 GB CF/Cfast and 1 TB SD cards... Granted, they cost a lot more than your $0.02...


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## ronno (Sep 9, 2019)

cayenne said:


> Mine are 32GB ones....I guess I could go higher, but then again, comes the danger of putting everything on one card and have it fail...even rolling over, spreading over 2 cards gives a little insurance that the whole shoot won't be lost.
> 
> But hey, to each his own.



Man - how many card failures have you had??
IMO your issue is showing up at an event with a slew of too-small cards rattling around in your pocket ;-)
I'd much rather have a large card and everything backing up to my phone, than a slew of small cards to juggle while at an event.

Anyway, I am off this topic now. This one slot issue has been discussed *ad nauseam* already.
Anyone interested in a backup workaround for the EOS R - see my post above ;-) It works, and woks well.


Best


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## rbielefeld (Sep 9, 2019)

cayenne said:


> Having a 2nd card slot, isn't just for redundancy, I used it as a safety net for rolling over if I"m in the 'middle of battle" and run out of space on the 1st card and have it automagically roll over and start shooting on the 2nd card, without me having to stop miss shots, etc. Heck when I've been shooting concert festivals, with noise and excitement, and quick shooting, I might not notice for awhile 1st card had run out, you know?
> 
> And same with shooting videos, I've had those roll over for me when in the middle of a run and gun video shoot....so, nice to have it for that.
> 
> ...


I agree completely. I use 128GB cards and I have my cameras set to roll over when the first card fills. This way I basically never have to worry about missing a shot due to a full card. As you know, the best action always happens when you are changing out a full card or a low battery. This is why I pay a higher price for cameras that have larger battery capacities and two card slots. Some people find the two card slots best used for redundancy while in the field, while some find them best for extra capacity. It all just depends on how you shoot and what is most important to you. There is no right or wrong way to take advantage of two cards in a camera, that is why the manufacturers have options build in for how they can be used.


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## Srit67 (Sep 9, 2019)

slower shutter speed less noise. It doesn’t directly lower it just a result of your hand holding a still subject.people expected more and they also expected a pro level body.


CanonFanBoy said:


> *sigh* I truly do not understand all the hate the R gets in nearly every single thread. It seems, though, that it is mostly from people who've never tried one. So, in my opinion, their comments don't matter one bit. Watch all the YouTube click bait reviews you want. Go out of your way to act like you know what you are talking about and feed off each other's rancid ignorance. Is the R meant to be a sports/wildlife speed demon? No. Then again, neither is the 5D Mark IV. For what I do, the R is near perfect and a real steal at it's current price.





CanonFanBoy said:


> Thanks for signing up to tell us.


I still had Canon gear when I signed up


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## Ozarker (Sep 10, 2019)

Srit67 said:


> slower shutter speed less noise. It doesn’t directly lower it just a result of your hand holding a still subject.people expected more and they also expected a pro level body.
> 
> 
> I still had Canon gear when I signed up


You expected more. Others expected more. Some of us got exactly what we wanted. Canon never said the first FF mirrorless would be the Pro Body. However, if a 5D mark IV is a "pro" body, then so is the R in many respects. It slaughters the 5D Mark IV in some categories.

Just because you expected something doesn't mean you are going to get it when you want it. Canon has a strategy. Canon does give a rats butt what you think the strategy should be. Enjoy the Sony or whatever you got when you sold your Canon gear. You should always get what suits your needs best and be happy. But frankly, nobody here cares what you did.


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## analoggrotto (Sep 10, 2019)

We just want to see what the first all new Canon RF will be like and what the all new full frame sensor can doooo !


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## SteveC (Sep 10, 2019)

The reps I spoke to yesterday gave the impression, without actually saying so, that the delay has been so that Canon can get it right. Releasing a shoddy/buggy pro body would have been a disaster.

It's a bit of a gamble, letting the customer base hang for a while, but if it's a truly awesome body...Sony is *******!


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## Srit67 (Sep 10, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> You expected more. Others expected more. Some of us got exactly what we wanted. Canon never said the first FF mirrorless would be the Pro Body. However, if a 5D mark IV is a "pro" body, then so is the R in many respects. It slaughters the 5D Mark IV in some categories.
> 
> Just because you expected something doesn't mean you are going to get it when you want it. Canon has a strategy. Canon does give a rats butt what you think the strategy should be. Enjoy the Sony or whatever you got when you sold your Canon gear. You should always get what suits your needs best and be happy. But frankly, nobody here cares what you did.


You really are a Canon fanboy! Yay, go Canon!
I looked at the Eos R and simply put it doesn't hold a candle to the A7III which is in the same price point. BTW, I have a 400 f2.8 IS II for sale, wanna buy it? Your right Canon does have a strategy and that is to keep producing sub standard bodies that are behind the competition and selling them to fanboys like yourself


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## Ozarker (Sep 10, 2019)

Srit67 said:


> You really are a Canon fanboy! Yay, go Canon!
> I looked at the Eos R and simply put it doesn't hold a candle to the A7III which is in the same price point. BTW, I have a 400 f2.8 IS II for sale, wanna buy it? Your right Canon does have a strategy and that is to keep producing sub standard bodies that are behind the competition and selling them to fanboys like yourself


Blah, blah, blah. And no, don't want your 400mm, and it doesn't impress me that you have one. Enjoy your Sony. I wear fanboy as a badge of honor.


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## SteveC (Sep 10, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Blah, blah, blah. And no, don't want your 400mm, and it doesn't impress me that you have one. Enjoy your Sony. I wear fanboy as a badge of honor.



Perfect example of why so many people think Sony users are a**hones, ain't he?


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 10, 2019)

Srit67 said:


> Canon does have a strategy and that is to keep producing sub standard bodies that are behind the competition and selling them to fanboys like yourself


Thanks for your pithy insight. I’ve always wondered how Canon has managed to dominate the ILC market for 16 years and counting, and why they currently have about 50% of the global market compared to Sony’s meager 17%. Now I know the answer – half of the market are blind fanboys that prefer substandard gear. It’s great for Canon that this group includes blind fanboys like you who buy substandard lenses costing thousands of dollars.


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## Srit67 (Sep 10, 2019)

Content deleted by Moderator


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## dwilz (Sep 10, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> It does not match reality yet. I own a wildlife photography day tour and workshop business and I too have seen Sony come on strong among my clients over the past couple of years. Prior to this, Nikon and Canon systems were all I saw on my tours. This change in the systems my clients are using caused me to get a Sony a9, so I could learn and speak these clients' "language" while on tours with them. Now that Sony has a 200-600mm and 600 f/4 available it may cause more wildlife photographers to make the change that would not do so before these lenses became available. The Sony a9, and soon the Sony a9II, are and will be very capable wildlife photography cameras as will be the a7RIV (very much in the same league as the Canon 1DXII and 5DMIV). My clients who shoot Sony (and use to shoot Nikon or Canon DSLRs) like mirrorless and the advantages it brings to the table over DSLRs (e.g., no blackout EVF, WYSIWYG exposure through the EVF, being able to shoot video through the EVF, AF points that span almost the entire frame, AI AF tracking capabilities). I have shot Canon for a long time and I love the 1DxII and 5DIV, but I also see the future in what the Sony a9 brings to the table in a mirrorless body now that I have been shooting one for several months along side my 1DxII and 5DIV. The AI AF tracking makes getting shots like those below almost easy compared to what it takes using my 1DxII.  I do believe Canon will soon bring a mirrorless camera to market that will rival the Sony a9/a9II, but if they falter I do wonder if what I have seen recently among my clients does not continue to pick up steam. I know I will get the Sony a9II if Canon does not bring a true high-speed, action mirrorless to the market within the next couple of years.
> View attachment 186524
> View attachment 186525
> View attachment 186526
> View attachment 186527


Amazing photos and very nice information.


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## SteveC (Sep 10, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Thanks for your pithy insight. I’ve always wondered how Canon has managed to dominate the ILC market for 16 years and counting, and why they currently have about 50% of the global market compared to Sony’s meager 17%. Now I know the answer – half of the market are blind fanboys that prefer substandard gear. It’s great for Canon that this group includes blind fanboys like you who buy substandard lenses costing thousands of dollars.



Let me begin this by saying I DO NOT DOUBT THOSE NUMBERS.

However, it's clear that I am experiencing EXTREME sampling error where I live. Almost everyone around me is a Nikon user (not Sony...Nikon). And the last time my local shop had a biiiiig sale, I saw almost a parade of people walking out with boxes labeled "Nikon D3500." So I wonder if there's something different about the US market, as compared to the worldwide one.


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## cayenne (Sep 10, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Let me begin this by saying I DO NOT DOUBT THOSE NUMBERS.
> 
> However, it's clear that I am experiencing EXTREME sampling error where I live. Almost everyone around me is a Nikon user (not Sony...Nikon). And the last time my local shop had a biiiiig sale, I saw almost a parade of people walking out with boxes labeled "Nikon D3500." So I wonder if there's something different about the US market, as compared to the worldwide one.



Whereabouts in the world do you live?


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## SteveC (Sep 10, 2019)

cayenne said:


> Whereabouts in the world do you live?



Colorado, USA


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## Ozarker (Sep 11, 2019)

cayenne said:


> Whereabouts in the world do you live?


Nikonia, right next to La Sonia.


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## Srit67 (Sep 11, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Thanks for your pithy insight. I’ve always wondered how Canon has managed to dominate the ILC market for 16 years and counting, and why they currently have about 50% of the global market compared to Sony’s meager 17%. Now I know the answer – half of the market are blind fanboys that prefer substandard gear. It’s great for Canon that this group includes blind fanboys like you who buy substandard lenses costing thousands of dollars.


Well if you mean substandard lenses like the 16-35 f2.8 GM or the 135f1,8 GM yes your correct. Terrible lenses


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2019)

Srit67 said:


> Well if you mean substandard lenses like the 16-35 f2.8 GM or the 135f1,8 GM yes your correct. Terrible lenses


Actually, I meant the terrible 400/2.8L IS II you foolishly bought.


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## Srit67 (Sep 11, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Actually, I meant the terrible 400/2.8L IS II you foolishly bought.


Sorry what? It's one of the best Canon lenses made, what planet do you live on? LOL That being said, the Sony is better, which I will buy once I dump this one!


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## Ozarker (Sep 11, 2019)

Srit67 said:


> Sorry what? It's one of the best Canon lenses made, what planet do you live on? LOL That being said, the Sony is better, which I will buy once I dump this one!


Yup. Horrible lens. I'll give you $500 and a used, but well trained gerbil. I'll even throw in a 12" long section of PVC pipe.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2019)

Srit67 said:


> Sorry what? It's one of the best Canon lenses made, what planet do you live on? LOL That being said, the Sony is better, which I will buy once I dump this one!


No, no. It’s a substandard lens just like their substandard bodies. Only a blind fanboy would buy one. Like you did, but thankfully you’ve seen the light and switched from being a blind Canon fanboy to being a blind Sony fanboy. I hope it helps your photography as much as it’s helped your personality.


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## Srit67 (Sep 11, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> No, no. It’s a substandard lens just like their substandard bodies. Only a blind fanboy would buy one. Like you did, but thankfully you’ve seen the light and switched from being a blind Canon fanboy to being a blind Sony fanboy. I hope it helps your photography as much as it’s helped your personality.


Oooooh, taking shots at my personality now, my feelings are hurt  I'm not a fanboy of any gear other than what I enjoy at the time. I'm also not loyal to any company unless they are gonna write cheques to me. WTF would you know about my personality or my photography?? Where have you seen anything of what I do? I your gonna make statements about lenses that are crap etc... I suggest you back it up with something.


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## Srit67 (Sep 11, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> No, no. It’s a substandard lens just like their substandard bodies. Only a blind fanboy would buy one. Like you did, but thankfully you’ve seen the light and switched from being a blind Canon fanboy to being a blind Sony fanboy. I hope it helps your photography as much as it’s helped your personality.


BTW, who still uses Flickr?? lol


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## AlanF (Sep 11, 2019)

Just looked at Neuro's and CanonFanboy's Flickr sites. Great shots both and congratulations!


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2019)

Srit67 said:


> Oooooh, taking shots at my personality now,


It was an implication based on empirical observations of your posts here, including the one a moderator felt was offensive enough to remove.



Srit67 said:


> I your gonna make statements about lenses that are crap etc... I suggest you back it up with something.


Like you backed up your statement that the EOS R is substandard? Oh wait, you didn’t.

The difference is you meant it, whereas I know the 400/2.8 II is excellent and was being facetious and mocking you for making asinine comments. I probably should have been more explicit about that, sorry.


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## Srit67 (Sep 11, 2019)

"Like you backed up your statement that the EOS R is substandard? Oh wait, you didn’t." 4 FPS, DR less than the 5DM IV? Compare it with the a7iii, there is no comparison IMO. If your happy with that good for you. My opinion (not just mine), is Canon holds back on everything so they can sell you more bodies. Basically I got tired of being disappointed and the EOS-R was the end for me.
Go check out my work as a hobbies and tell me what I need to work on 





__





500px







500px.com


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## Srit67 (Sep 11, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> It was an implication based on empirical observations of your posts here, including the one a moderator felt was offensive enough to remove.
> 
> 
> Like you backed up your statement that the EOS R is substandard? Oh wait, you didn’t.
> ...


My post was moderated because i used a fluffy swear word kinda like SH*t, my bad lol.

_NOTE From Moderator: Post was moderated for gratuitous rudeness_


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2019)

Srit67 said:


> "Like you backed up your statement that the EOS R is substandard? Oh wait, you didn’t." 4 FPS, DR less than the 5DM IV?


Thanks for making it clear that you can’t even read a spec sheet and that you think 1/10 of a stop of DR is meaningful in any way. Both are pretty pathetic.



Srit67 said:


> My post was moderated because i used a fluffy swear word kinda like SH*t, my bad lol.


Oh, is that why you think it happened? I’d recommend getting your metacognition tested. You could call the EOS R or the a7III a piece of shit with no risk of having your post deleted, from what I’ve seen on this forum.


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## Srit67 (Sep 11, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Interesting photos.
> 
> Out of curiosity, What is your opinion on this one?
> 
> View attachment 186551


Not my thing but nice shot good lighting.


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## Srit67 (Sep 11, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Thanks for making it clear that you can’t even read a spec sheet and that you think 1/10 of a stop of DR is meaningful in any way. Both are pretty pathetic.
> 
> 
> Oh, is that why you think it happened? I’d recommend getting your metacognition tested.


Take care science guy, I'm done


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2019)

Srit67 said:


> Take care science guy, I'm done


I hope that’s true, but unfortunately I fully expect we will see more of your ridiculous trolling, rudeness and misinformation around here in the days and weeks to come.


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## Ozarker (Sep 11, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Just looked at Neuro's and CanonFanboy's Flickr sites. Great shots both and congratulations!


You are very, very kind.


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## AlanF (Sep 11, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> You are very, very kind.


You clearly enjoy your photography and it shows.


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## Ozarker (Sep 12, 2019)

ronno said:


> Man - how many card failures have you had??
> IMO your issue is showing up at an event with a slew of too-small cards rattling around in your pocket ;-)
> I'd much rather have a large card and everything backing up to my phone, than a slew of small cards to juggle while at an event.
> 
> ...


Curiosity is getting the best of me. Will your phone back up raw files? If so, how many from a 30 mega pixel camera? I only ask because I only shoot raw.


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## Ozarker (Sep 12, 2019)

Srit67 said:


> BTW, who still uses Flickr?? lol


Nothing wrong with Flickr, and it's free.


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## Valvebounce (Sep 12, 2019)

Hi Srit67. 
Way to alienate yourself! Just because you don’t like Flickr doesn’t make you right, and the way you ask the question makes you come across as a real buffoon. 
Very happy Flickr user! 

Cheers, Graham. 



Srit67 said:


> BTW, who still uses Flickr?? lol


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## Nelu (Sep 14, 2019)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Srit67.
> Way to alienate yourself! Just because you don’t like Flickr doesn’t make you right, and the way you ask the question makes you come across as a real buffoon.
> Very happy Flickr user!
> 
> Cheers, Graham.


I don’t get it guys; why do you pay attention to such a piece of Canon EOS R like Srit67?


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## SteveC (Sep 14, 2019)

Nelu said:


> I don’t get it guys; why do you pay attention to such a piece of Canon EOS R like Srit67?



Neat. You criticize people for paying attention to a hater...while hating on the EOS R yourself.


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## Nelu (Sep 14, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Neat. You criticize people for paying attention to a hater...while hating on the EOS R yourself.


I think you’re missing the sarcasm...
Edit:
Since I already have and use the 5D Mark 4 and the 1DX you’re right, the EOS R is not for me but I’m waiting for the next one, at least equivalent to the 5D Mark 4.
I don’t hate it, it’s just not for me...


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## SteveC (Sep 14, 2019)

Nelu said:


> I think you’re missing the sarcasm...
> Edit:
> Since I already have and use the 5D Mark 4 and the 1DX you’re right, the EOS R is not for me but I’m waiting for the next one, at least equivalent to the 5D Mark 4.
> I don’t hate it, it’s just not for me...



You're right--I missed the sarcasm. Sorry about that.

And, though I don't own a full frame, I've played with the R a bit, and it's a huge step above anything else I've used. BUT, ironically, Canon has dampened my enthusiasm for it by bringing out the 32MP APS-C cameras. Now both the R and RP have fewer pixels in a much bigger sensor, and it just doesn't seem right to be looking at an M5-II (OK, I may have to settle for an M6-II) and a fullframe with fewer pixels. I can understand those who are not wanting to jump all the way to 83MP, though...so how about something in the 40s-50s?

So I'm sort of in the same boat you're in right now, wanting to see what they come out with in the R realm next.


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## SecureGSM (Sep 14, 2019)

SteveC said:


> You're right--I missed the sarcasm. Sorry about that.
> 
> And, though I don't own a full frame, I've played with the R a bit, and it's a huge step above anything else I've used. BUT, ironically, Canon has dampened my enthusiasm for it by bringing out the 32MP APS-C cameras. Now both the R and RP have fewer pixels in a much bigger sensor, and it just doesn't seem right to be looking at an M5-II (OK, I may have to settle for an M6-II) and a fullframe with fewer pixels. I can understand those who are not wanting to jump all the way to 83MP, though...so how about something in the 40s-50s?
> 
> So I'm sort of in the same boat you're in right now, wanting to see what they come out with in the R realm next.


Steve, I guess there is still much for you to learn, Sir. Great. Keep exploring your options. Ask questions and maintain an open mind approach.
Photography is a kind of magic in so many ways. It’s a witchcraft. A wizardry. So, Stick to the wizards and follow your imagination.
You can produce amazing photos with the camera you already own.


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## SteveC (Sep 14, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Steve, I guess there is still much for you to learn, Sir.



Nominee for understatement of the year.

And I've taken some pretty good ones but my hit rate is abysmal. Tech can help with that but of course, a critical factor is the hominid behind the viewfinder/display.


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## ronno (Sep 16, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Curiosity is getting the best of me. Will your phone back up raw files? If so, how many from a 30 mega pixel camera? I only ask because I only shoot raw.



I shoot only RAW too. The WIFI workaround is fast, but sends full-size JPEGs to the computer/phone/tablet (not RAW files.)
So, in the rare instance that your card actually fails, you have *full size* JPEG backups. 
Perfect? No. 
Decent Plan B if the shit hits the fan? Yes, IMHO.


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## Joaquim (Sep 19, 2019)

BillB said:


> In the old days, 35mm cameras had a lever for you to use to advance the film for the next shot.


Oh ok! I wasn't aware it was called a thumbdrive. Definitely seen those with Dad and relatives as a kid. Thank you for clarifying.


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## JohanCruyff (Sep 24, 2019)

SteveC said:


> You're right--I missed the sarcasm. Sorry about that.
> 
> And, though I don't own a full frame, I've played with the R a bit, and it's a huge step above anything else I've used. BUT, ironically, Canon has dampened my enthusiasm for it by bringing out the 32MP APS-C cameras. Now both the R and RP have fewer pixels in a much bigger sensor, and it just doesn't seem right to be looking at an M5-II (OK, I may have to settle for an M6-II) and a fullframe with fewer pixels. I can understand those who are not wanting to jump all the way to 83MP, though...so how about something in the 40s-50s?
> 
> So I'm sort of in the same boat you're in right now, wanting to see what they come out with in the R realm next.


My M6 has more megapixels than my ancient 6D, and I wish the M6 had fewer megapixels (and thus better imagine quality at high ISO).


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## AlanF (Sep 24, 2019)

JohanCruyff said:


> My M6 has more megapixels than my ancient 6D, and I wish the M6 had fewer megapixels (and thus better imagine quality at high ISO).


Would it have higher IQ at high iso? There are quite a few posts in CR claiming with good reasoning that more pixels give worse IQ at high iso is a myth.


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## GoldWing (Feb 27, 2020)

If their RF 1DX is "anything" like the 1DXMKIII and they say 2021 or 2022 before a full set of lenses are out to equal or EF inventory, I'm shocked.

I'll say it again. Canon should have devoted more to the 1DXMKIII to hold "still photographers" in place until a complete set of lenses and and equivalent "R" high resolution options were put out for agencies.

Now Csnon is scattered, not focused and opened up their markets to competition from people they never had to compete with. 

Very poor business decision. Right now we could be using a high resolution MKIII for stills and Canon opted not to go in that direction, now we wait until 2022? 

Good luck with that.


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## GoldWing (Jul 2, 2020)

I have little faith. This will be another 1DXMKIII flop. Can't Canon hire Product Managers who can relate to what we "need"? They can't have it both ways by saying a camera is for professionals then dumb it down for those they want to sell it to, who are not professionals, to increase sales. Lowering resolution for stills to increase frame rate for video is not a need for a professional. Pros use real video cameras. Can't Canon get back to making cameras for photographers???????


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## yungfat (Jul 2, 2020)

In mirrorless world, the leasing company is selling video features as important as photo features to amateur. 
Before mirrorless 1D come out, I doubt that there will be any Flagship mirrorless that compatible with 1DMarkIII or D6. I do not see A9ii is in the same league with Canon and Nikon flagship at least on the body construction and weatherseal.


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## Ozarker (Jul 2, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> They can't have it both ways by saying a camera is for professionals then dumb it down for those they want to sell it to, who are not professionals, to increase sales.


True. Making a camera for those they want to sell it to would be suicide. /s  

Thank goodness for the enthusiasts out there. They are who will keep Canon afloat. They are who have always done so. Most professionals aren't doing much of anything right now (unfortunately). It makes complete sense for Canon to focus on the biggest markets.


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## GoldWing (Jul 2, 2020)

So as we get no work for the past 4 months because we're pro sports photographers Canon throws us under the bus. As if the 1DXMKIII was not bad enough? Stop telling us cameras are for professionals when you have clearly amateur features that dumb down what would make a pro more money. This double talk is deceptive and dishonest.


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## GoldWing (Jul 2, 2020)

Mikehit said:


> Have you any idea how long it will take to develop a full stable of lenses to match the EF range? That is a ridiculous suggestion.
> Using an adapter is not a problem, it really isn't.
> People easily forget that when they have an adapter between manufacturers (Sigma to Canon for example) the adapter manufacturer has to reverse engineer the software which will lead to compromises on performance. No such problem when Canon makes a EF-RF adapter.
> 
> ...


Well our firm, other agencies and the teams are not adopting the MKIII with anywhere near the MKII. So if money matters.... Canon has a flop.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 3, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> Well our firm, other agencies and the teams are not adopting the MKIII with anywhere near the MKII. So if money matters.... Canon has a flop.


Or, business is poor for them as it is for every camera maker on the planet. The MK III was likely tossed out as a stopgap new body for those who wanted the latest body for the 2020 Olympics. Hopefully, the market and the tech will be there in 2021, but I would not count on it.


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## GoldWing (Jul 7, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Or, business is poor for them as it is for every camera maker on the planet. The MK III was likely tossed out as a stopgap new body for those who wanted the latest body for the 2020 Olympics. Hopefully, the market and the tech will be there in 2021, but I would not count on it.


Nor would I , I see nothing innovative to get our agency to buy new bodies and lenses and adapt to new workflow. Very disappointed in Canon lately


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## Baron_Karza (Jul 7, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> Nor would I , I see nothing innovative to get our agency to buy new bodies and lenses and adapt to new workflow. Very disappointed in Canon lately



I didn't have a time to read all 19 pages of replies, but what features are your agency waiting for?


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