# Canon Rebel T4i [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 30, 2012)

```
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<strong>Canon Rebel T4i coming soon


</strong>I’m told the announcement for the Rebel T4i will happen very soon. There may have been multiple delays in announcing it while Canon deals with production of already announced products.</p>
<p>The megapixel count will not match the 24mp of the new Nikon D3200 I am told. It will have DIGIC V, new video features and a few ergonomic changes. Still waiting on the definitive specs.</p>
<p>From a different source, we’ve been told there may be a new autofocus technology when shooting video, as well as a touchscreen.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## D_Rochat (Apr 30, 2012)

But will it play Angry Birds?


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## akiskev (Apr 30, 2012)

dilbert said:


> If Canon have got something new in terms of autofocus technology then that could generate rather more interest.


I believe that if Canon DID have something new in AF (I'm talking about video), we would have seen it implemented on the G1X.

What I'd like to see in all new Canons is focus peaking in live view. Canon do you hear me? Just copy Sony!


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## dr croubie (Apr 30, 2012)

akiskev said:


> Canon do you hear me? Just copy Sony!



*cough* patents *cough*

Maybe it's me, but I see a lot more people around the place with 550Ds than 600Ds, maybe it's because they bought earlier or maybe it's because they just didn't see the point in the extra cash for the flipscreen.

I'd be interested to see the sales figures between those two, because if the 650D has the same sensor as the other 4 already, then it's going to have to have *something* special to make sales (sorry, but just having "Digic 5" doesn't mean squat to most consumers who buy into this range, unless it makes vastly better IQ).


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## D_Rochat (Apr 30, 2012)

Even better IQ isn't going to mean squat to 90% of the people buying Rebels, and I'm not slamming Rebel owners either. I'm talking about the new to photography Rebel consumers. The only thing in the (new) Rebel consumers photographic vocabulary is megapixels. The rest is jiberish for the first little while.


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## pittguy578 (Apr 30, 2012)

Maybe Canon will finally be adding AF to the Rebel series? Nikon did it with the D5100. Sure the AF likely won't be spectacular, but it will be there if requested. I am also guessing there will likely be some kind of social media sharing option or Wi Fi abilities.


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## pittguy578 (Apr 30, 2012)

dr croubie said:


> akiskev said:
> 
> 
> > Canon do you hear me? Just copy Sony!
> ...



I am not sure if Canon would have put any "new" tech into the G1X that wasn't available in its DSLRs. The G1X is a niche camera, and most people are not buying it for video abilities..I would probably say video is far more important for DSLR sales nowadays and that is going to be the primary differentiation between cameras..Still image quality for any camera using an APS-C sensor is going to be nearly equivalent regardless of manufacturer, especially if you shoot raw.


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## Astro (Apr 30, 2012)

more minor updates i guess?

oh wait more video stuff... great (that was sarcasm). 


:


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## D_Rochat (May 1, 2012)

Yeah, photography related upgrades would be nice to see..... How about a new AF! No not video AF, but AF for actually taking pictures  The current 9 point AF stinks with the exception of the center point. Keep the 9 point, but just fix the other 8! Then just add a few mp to keep the masses interested.


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## gmrza (May 1, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> Yeah, photography related upgrades would be nice to see..... How about a new AF! No not video AF, but AF for actually taking pictures  The current 9 point AF stinks with the exception of the center point. Keep the 9 point, but just fix the other 8! Then just add a few mp to keep the masses interested.



I have to wonder whether the 7D's AF system will find its way into more of Canon's DSLRs. That would be a nice upgrade.

As far as IQ goes, the current 18MP sensor has its weaknesses, but it is good enough that if you can't produce good images with it, then photography is probably not your thing.

Realistically, if Canon were to improve the sensor, users would only really see a benefit with better glass. While the 18-55mm kit lens does not perform too badly, many of the other entry level lenses probably even struggle with an 18MP sensor.

I think we have reached a stage where improvements in sensors won't necessarily benefit everyone. On the other hand, improved specs are what marketing departments are looking for to sell cameras.


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## facedodge (May 1, 2012)

Thank God Canon is about to release another camera. I was just noticing the size of the angry entitled consumerist mob depleting. What would I read on this forums if not for pixel peeping flame wars?


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## D_Rochat (May 1, 2012)

gmrza said:


> As far as IQ goes, the current 18MP sensor has its weaknesses, but it is good enough that if you can't produce good images with it, then photography is probably not your thing.



You can't argue with that point.



facedodge said:


> Thank God Canon is about to release another camera. I was just noticing the size of the angry entitled consumerist mob depleting. What would I read on this forums if not for pixel peeping flame wars?



Oh you just wait! We have yet to hear if/when they will release a 7D mark II. It could be a storm that your children's children will talk about in years to come.


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## Balthazar (May 1, 2012)

Hi all,

In France, the "650D for dummys" will be available in 2 weeks in all major shops in the country :

http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/FR/images_produits/FR/Fnac.com/ZoomPE/4/7/1/9782754040174.jpg


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## ctmike (May 1, 2012)

Of course, the current 18MP sensor isn't rubbish, but how many times is Canon going to milk that cow? How is Canon going to convince people to buy the T4i and not a D3200? I'm very curious to find out. 

Oh, and can't forget the obligatory "Gimme new 70D and 7DII". For half the current model's prices.


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## sleepnever (May 1, 2012)

I bought my T2i just before the T3i's came out, because it was my first DSLR and I didn't know about the T3i's. The only thing I wish mine had right now from the T3i is the articulating LCD screen. I would love to step up to FF, but can't really afford it. I'm interested in seeing the specs for the T4i... hopefully better ISO and noise performance and faster burst. That would make me happy.


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## JasonATL (May 1, 2012)

I have the 550D and 600D, and recently acquired a 5D Mark III (though it really belongs to my wife for photos). I only shoot video and couldn't have justified getting the 5D3 on video alone. While the 5D3 has clearly superior video capabilities than the 600D, I still use my 600D (a lot). 600D has better ergonomics for me and, with Magic Lantern, better "features". I've even been able to cut the 5D3 with the 600D where even sometimes I can't tell which was used after the fact.

Improved video capabilities (note that I didn't say features) would interest me. Here's my wish list for the 650D/T4i:
1. No moire
2. Improved effective video resolution (not sensor MP) to be true 1920x1080.
3a. Clean HDMI out (won't happen, but a guy can dream), or
3b. A 4:2:2 codec (again, a guy can dream)
4. Improved low light/high ISO performance

Note that none of these is what I consider a "feature". To me, they are capabilities that result in better images, not just easier images. I'm not interested in video features. I have plenty of those with the 550D, 600D, and Magic Lantern (thanks Alex!). A video AF is next to useless for me, and I take a lot of "live" shots.

If the camera only offers any of 1-3, I am very likely to get it (actually, one 3 option alone would sell it for me). Eliminated moire isn't a must-have for me, as long as they leave the 3x zoom in it (which eliminates moire, albeit at crop, but not resolution, cost). If it has any 2, I almost surely will get it. I'm looking forward to the actual announcement.

By the way, I just don't understand why someone who is getting a DSLR for video use would get a 550D rather than a 600D/T3i. The flip screen and the 3x zoom that eliminates moire are well worth the premium. For stills, I don't see why anyone would get the 600D over the 550D. I think the fact that the 550D outsells the 600D says why people buy these cams.


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## Silverstream (May 1, 2012)

JasonATL said:


> By the way, I just don't understand why someone who is getting a DSLR for video use would get a 550D rather than a 600D/T3i. The flip screen and the 3x zoom that eliminates moire are well worth the premium. For stills, I don't see why anyone would get the 600D over the 550D. I think the fact that the 550D outsells the 600D says why people buy these cams.


I was surprised by the last line and went to amazon to see. http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/3017941/ref=zg_bs_nav_e_3_281052
I am planning on buying a t4i the instant it becomes available to order UNLESS it has the same sensor. Based on the number of sales at this general price and the current level of competition, it would seem (IMO) to me that it would be ludicrous for it not to be an improved sensor.


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## Fandongo (May 1, 2012)

akiskev said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > If Canon have got something new in terms of autofocus technology then that could generate rather more interest.
> ...



Download Magic Lantern.
Peaking, false color, all that crap =).
IF Canon found a way for the software to control the autofocus drive WITHOUT stutter (either thru a USB controller or built-in racking ability...like Magic Lantern), I might have to buy it.
Otherwise they can eat my A.


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## Woody (May 1, 2012)

Let's return to basics: Canon needs to match Olympus E-M5 and Sony NEX-5N for base ISO dynamic range and continue to provide acceptable high ISO performance. I'm sure the Sony 24 MP APS-C sensor is not hard to beat in the high ISO department.

If Canon cannot even meet these basic requirements, we don't even have to bother with video performance etc etc


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## stabmasterasron (May 1, 2012)

I am inclined to wait for the 70d, but could be tempted if:
-improve AF (not expecting 7D here, just better than the past rebels)
-at least 6fps (with at least 12 raw buffer)
-better high ISO performance

Other features would be nice (like focus peaking), but these are my essentials. Don't care if they develop a new sensor for t4i, although I don't know why they would use the same sensor as t3i. But high MP doesn't do anything for me, I would rather have better dynamic range and same MP. All of this is probably very unlikely as these features probably don't sell cameras at the rebel level - they will probably keep things about the same and throw in some more video features. Oh well - I hope they announce the 70D soon.


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## tomsop (May 1, 2012)

As owner of a Rebel XT, I think whatever is announced will be a big upgrade for me. My issue is even when t4i is announced, is this the best choice? Right now I am leaning to the Nikon 3200. I would rather stay with Canon so I could keep my 2 lenses but Nikon's autofocus features and 24 MP sounds really good. The current rumor seems to make the changes sound really incremental to me but maybe I don't know enough to appreciate the announcement. It seems like for me the t3i focusing was really slow and most of the videos I see the camera is always trying to focus. Of the crop sensor segment it is the most popular but I did not get a sense that it was being bought by serious hobbyists. I am a casual user but would like to make sure my camera is a better investment that allows me to be creative with still and video but gives me room to grow with both features

Should I be looking at other cameras besides the upcoming t4i?


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## iTasneem (May 1, 2012)

I hope canon don't raise the price to $999... and i hope they use xx0D naming over the Txi.


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## !Xabbu (May 1, 2012)

stabmasterasron said:


> I am inclined to wait for the 70d, but could be tempted if:
> -improve AF (not expecting 7D here, just better than the past rebels)
> -at least 6fps (with at least 12 raw buffer)
> -better high ISO performance



Get a 60D - it has exactly the specs you name above (apart from the better high ISO, which will need a new sensor). If they would put these features in the T4i, it would be a 60D in a less ergonomic, but smaller body. Not sure that this would make sense from a marketing standpoint.


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## Marsu42 (May 1, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> Get a 60D - it has exactly the specs you name above (apart from the better high ISO, which will need a new sensor). If they would put these features in the T4i, it would be a 60D in a less ergonomic, but smaller body. Not sure that this would make sense from a marketing standpoint.



Exactly - the xxxd series has another market position, it's not just a feature-cut xxd, but many video users like it with magic lantern because you strictly don't need the 60d's features over the 600d's for video. So it's a sound speculation to say Canon might try to catch up on video/live view af now that they've announced silent usm lenses and is primes.



gmrza said:


> I have to wonder whether the 7D's AF system will find its way into more of Canon's DSLRs.



Probably never - at least the customizations are too "pro" to be trickled down, the af (next to ff sensor) is a major selling point for expensive bodies. And too many af points in the viewfinder will disturb entry users like Ma and Dad.



gmrza said:


> As far as IQ goes, the current 18MP sensor has its weaknesses, but it is good enough that if you can't produce good images with it, then photography is probably not your thing.I think we have reached a stage where improvements in sensors won't necessarily benefit everyone. On the other hand, improved specs are what marketing departments are looking for to sell cameras.



What's good? My 60d has a good iq, but with flash I'm at least at iso 400, and at iso 800 in no time when shooting macro or something that moves and this shows when raising shadows in post.

Everyone will benefit from improved iso performance - imagine you can be at 1/4000s all the time in daylight or shoot noise free-pictures at iso 6400 indoors with your kit lens stopped down if you don't care about bokeh. At the same time, the latter might be the reason this won't happen too soon - if Canon wants to keep up fast lens sales, they improve iso marginally and go for higher mp because Nikon has them.


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## tomscott (May 1, 2012)

Problem is where do you draw the line for beginner SLRs?

Half the specs on here that people are after are more in the XXD line so it wont happen.

From history, the XXXDs will be slow but in a great compact design, but still offer great IQ and a menu system that will allow you to grow. Which IMO is the correct way to go or you eat into your higher quality SLR list then gives an upgrade path.

Problems I see is that the competition are replying to Canons dominance by making the cheaper SLRs more into the medium sector better MP and a better skill set. So in this respect if Canon are to compete they must update the whole line meaning the 700D 70D and 7D MKII so as not to play themselves out of the game.

We are not talking 5Ds here, lets get off that band wagon. We are talking consumer products the im sure that the XXXDs will outsell the pro lines at least 10-1 so we are talking bread and butter and they must get this right especially with the Nikon D5200. 

6-8fps is the base line for semi pro DSLRs like the 60D and 7D. I just hope they improve the 60D so it is back into the XXD product line and the 7D MKII does something extraordinary to put it into the pro category for crop sensor Canon cameras. 

So would 5fps be a good base? better than the competition and a nice range. Maybe that is too fast? But if they did this the XXD would have to be at least 7 even 8 so the 7D MKII will have to be 10FPS and that will put it in 1DX territory so again I don't no whether they will. Although the crop will be the definitive factor between the two which is enough but again the old discussion between the 1.6 crop on longer lenses is a big deal.

Problem is that 18mp sensor wasn't that great... I think ok for the consumer cameras but I think they should put some distance between it and the 7D this time instead of recycling the tech. Although the 7D is a much better camera technically and ergonomically at the end of the day for still life you can get the same results and I dont think the 7D sensor is good enough for pros/semi pros the 40D had better noise characteristics at low ISO than the 18mp sensor and low ISO is the holy grail! Everyone will automatically go there to get the best quality in the right conditions so that was a bit of a kick in the teeth as thats where I primarily shoot. Which is why I didn't buy one.

It will be interesting where they go from here. They could be in trouble hope they get it right.

I just wish they would innovate instead of trying to be safe! Its the first step generally to show that a company is going in a wrong direction.


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## garyploski (May 1, 2012)

After I missed the 7D for $1199 yesterday this brought me out my  state and has me very ;D! 

Does anyone have a take on what coming soon/very soon generally means to CR? Both were referenced in this post.ß


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## dstppy (May 1, 2012)

Excellent.

The 60D and 7D are in NO need of an update. :


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## tomscott (May 1, 2012)

dstppy said:


> Excellent.
> 
> The 60D and 7D are in NO need of an update. :



If they bring a new sensor out for the 700D then there will be a need for update. The 60D needs updating to bring it back in line the XXD previously were. Was a disappointment for most XXD users. I agree with the 7D but then it would be nice to have a better sensor in it. I would buy it then. No point in buying something new for the IQ to be worse than previous models.


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## stabmasterasron (May 1, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> stabmasterasron said:
> 
> 
> > I am inclined to wait for the 70d, but could be tempted if:
> ...



Yes, but the t4i has to be updated compared to the t3i, else why call it the next generation of rebel? The t3i has a 3.7 fps burst rate. Is it that big of a leap to give it 6fps? It would best the new Nikon offering. So what if it is faster than the old 60D, that camera will be out of production before Christmas. I would guess the 70D will have at least 8fps.

But yes, I get your point, these specs are essentially the 60D. And in reality my next camera will be something from the xxD line. I can't see getting another rebel. The IQ is OK, just not enough quick flexibility for me. And it feels a little flimsy. 

The big question is where does the Rebel line go? Because the mirrorless cams are starting to make a good argument as an alternative to an entry level DSLR. Does canon make the Rebels mirrorless? Does it take the Rebels upscale to put some distance between them and the mirrorless? And if Canon does take the rebel upscale, what does that do to the xxD line? Anyway, it is a great time to be in the market for a new camera - things are getting interesting.


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## xtaski (May 1, 2012)

I'm new to these forums, but what is wrong with the current T3i sensor? What could they do to make it better in the T4i? I just bought a T3i and was curious what issues people are aware of...


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## mrdiger (May 1, 2012)

tomsop said:


> As owner of a Rebel XT, I think whatever is announced will be a big upgrade for me. My issue is even when t4i is announced, is this the best choice? Right now I am leaning to the Nikon 3200. I would rather stay with Canon so I could keep my 2 lenses but Nikon's autofocus features and 24 MP sounds really good



Hi, 
take a look at the D3200 preview on dpreview.com. 
There is much more noise on D3200 than on the 600d, when your compare ISO 1600 or higher. Maybe, 24MP look only beautiful on the Nikon sample pics. 
Greetings
Marcus


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## Marine03 (May 1, 2012)

xtaski said:


> I'm new to these forums, but what is wrong with the current T3i sensor? What could they do to make it better in the T4i? I just bought a T3i and was curious what issues people are aware of...



I have a 450D but my understanding is that it's a 3? Year or older sensor it's starting to be surpassed by competitors and I think 800 is like make ISO for clean images.


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## dstppy (May 1, 2012)

tomscott said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > Excellent.
> ...



Honestly, a 7D with nothing more than the Digic V would be a notable improvement. Not 'sell your 7D' improvement, but it would definitely be worth putting out if there was nothing else in the pipes.

From another thread:


neuroanatomist said:


> Note that there are two 'flavors' - Digic5 and Digic5+.
> 
> The new Digic 5 processor is 6X faster and creates 75% less noise than the Digic 4 processor.
> 
> Compared with the predecessor, Canon's DIGIC 4 Image Processor, the Dual DIGIC 5+ Image Processor offers approximately 17x faster processing speed, and feature new algorithms that promote greater noise reduction at higher ISOs.



Looking back, they could easily get away with making a 70D that's only improvements were Digic5 and re-adding MFA . . .


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## preppyak (May 1, 2012)

stabmasterasron said:


> Yes, but the t4i has to be updated compared to the t3i, else why call it the next generation of rebel? *The t3i has a 3.7 fps burst rate. Is it that big of a leap to give it 6fps? * It would best the new Nikon offering.


Yes, that would be a huge increase, nearly doubling the fps. It would best the 60D, the 5dII, and put itself in line with the 5dIII or 7D...which are pro bodies that sell at more than double the price.

Remember, the Ti cameras are entry level; the point of crippling them a little is that people who need features (faster fps, lower iso, weather sealing, great AF) upgrade to a line that has them. If they make the T4i better than the 60D and give it features that make it even close to the 7D, they'll have destroyed any upgrade path in the APS-C line. Who would buy a 60D if the T4i had a new sensor, did 6fps and had 19pt AF? Or a 7D for that matter? And what they'd have to upgrade the 60D/7D to to get sales back would be insane; they'd basically be an APS-C version of the 1DX, and for <$2000? Not happening.

I'd say new sensor, Digic V, little better fps (4-4.5), maybe slightly better AF system, and they'll use a variation of the video AF that Nikon has used for a while. And nobody who wants good video will use it, because the Nikon AF for video is terrible; similar to pressing the shutter button and letting it hunt. Their last update was a flip out screen, I'm not expecting miracles.


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## stabmasterasron (May 1, 2012)

preppyak said:


> stabmasterasron said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, but the t4i has to be updated compared to the t3i, else why call it the next generation of rebel? *The t3i has a 3.7 fps burst rate. Is it that big of a leap to give it 6fps? * It would best the new Nikon offering.
> ...



You are right. Keep it simple. And if I am upgrading from a p&s - the mirrorless looks a lot better to me. Same specifications for the money (in some cases the mirrorless are better). And it is smaller too - where do I sign up? Of course I know the advantages of a larger body and the advantages of having lots of glass to choose from - but p&s upgraders may not. So, did you read the rest of my post? I asked the same question you did - if canon has to take the rebels upscale to distance themselves from the mirrorless - what does that do to the xxD line? 7D is already a mini 1Dmkiv for less than $2k.


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## preppyak (May 1, 2012)

stabmasterasron said:


> So, did you read the rest of my post? I asked the same question you did - if canon has to take the rebels upscale to distance themselves from the mirrorless - what does that do to the xxD line? 7D is already a mini 1Dmkiv for less than $2k.


I did, but I didn't want to leave too long a post. I think that's why we are hearing that the 7D might not get updated. In a way, Canon spread themselves too thin...too many options that are hard to differentiate and upgrade, especially with other companies pushing them. Also, the 7D is so reasonably priced for what they could have charged. I think the 70D will go back to what the 50D was, a nice body with some weather sealing, it'll have the FPS a sports guy needs, MFA, etc. And then maybe down the line Canon will push a 7Dii at a higher price point (think $2000+) with Dual Digic V and 8-10fps. But, the 5DIII can handle sports, it just lacks the APS-C reach for those lenses. Not sure how they'll handle that

What's made Canon so smart these last 6-8 months is how many people they got to buy T2i and T3i's because of sales, while Nikon sat on their defined retailer pricing. Means they can make a lot of money off lenses in the future. And right now, they are well ahead of the mirror less guys in the lens department. I know I didn't buy the A77 or NEX's (despite needing a small, light body) because my lens options were maybe 1/10th what they were for Canon.


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## stabmasterasron (May 1, 2012)

preppyak said:


> stabmasterasron said:
> 
> 
> > So, did you read the rest of my post? I asked the same question you did - if canon has to take the rebels upscale to distance themselves from the mirrorless - what does that do to the xxD line? 7D is already a mini 1Dmkiv for less than $2k.
> ...



Well, I think there are a sufficient number of people out there that have a need for a high quality aps-c body (7dmkii) that they would be able to sell lots of bodies if they play there cards right (especially if they can deliver dual digic 5 and 10fps for less than $2k). But yes the mirrorless will continue to be a problem eroding sales on the bottom end. It may squeeze the aps-c bodies into a tighter formation.


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## tomsop (May 1, 2012)

I am confused. If the T4i is going to have slightly better ISO and FPS performance over the t3i and perhaps autofocus, if I am upgrading from a Rebel XT - should I go for the t4i or look higher up the line or should I be waiting to see what other cameras get upgraded. In other words, should I wait or just get a different camera now? I don't want to get a 7D if they are going to be upgrading that as well - I want better than XT but I also want to future proof my next purchase to a reasonable extent.


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## stabmasterasron (May 1, 2012)

tomsop said:


> I am confused. If the T4i is going to have slightly better ISO and FPS performance over the t3i and perhaps autofocus, if I am upgrading from a Rebel XT - should I go for the t4i or look higher up the line or should I be waiting to see what other cameras get upgraded. In other words, should I wait or just get a different camera now? I don't want to get a 7D if they are going to be upgrading that as well - I want better than XT but I also want to future proof my next purchase to a reasonable extent.



If you shoot primarily stills, the 7D is still a great buy and even if it is updated to mk ii, the original won't be "out of date" for many more years.


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## D_Rochat (May 1, 2012)

tomsop said:


> I am confused. If the T4i is going to have slightly better ISO and FPS performance over the t3i and perhaps autofocus, if I am upgrading from a Rebel XT - should I go for the t4i or look higher up the line or should I be waiting to see what other cameras get upgraded. In other words, should I wait or just get a different camera now? I don't want to get a 7D if they are going to be upgrading that as well - I want better than XT but I also want to future proof my next purchase to a reasonable extent.



I wouldn't hold off on buying a 7D just because they are due to replace it. We don't even have a CR1 on a 7D yet and who knows if/when they will be announced, let alone available for purchase. That being said, even if a replacement was anounced tomorrow, the 7D is still a great camera and is lightyears better than a Rebel XT. There's more to the 7D than just the "old" sensor. 

It's hard to recommend an upgrade when I don't know what you like to shoot or how often, but anything being sold today will be a good upgrade. I personally wouldn't go from Rebel to Rebel and would at least shoot for a xxD, but my needs may be different that yours.


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## elvan (May 1, 2012)

With such a huge delay, Canon should just kill the current design altogether. Digic 5 will not be of much help in the noise department for RAW shooters if the sensor is still the same. At the current rate, it would be smart for canon to keep the 550d (t2i) around even longer as the entry-level dslr, and release a significantly updated t4i with sensor upgrades from the next 7dmkii/70d when it becomes available. 

And since we're asking, I'm perfectly happy with the MP count in the current APS-C sensor, but it would be nice if the noise @ ISO 3200 behave more like it did @ ISO 800 in RAW.


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## Lee Jay (May 1, 2012)

I don't know what they are doing, but here's what I'd try to do:

T4i - 20-22MP conventional sensor.
4fps
Continuous electronic (windowed) zoom in video activated by P&S-inspired zoom switch at the shutter release
Continuous video AF
1080/60p video option, 720/120p, 640/240p, 320/480p.
Smallest possible body, ergonomics be-damned.
T/S LCD
$799 body only/$899 with 18-55IS kit lens

70D - T4i in a 60D body
6fps
$1099 body only/$1199 with 18-55IS kit lens

7DII
24MP BSI sensor (small advantage over standard sensors, but some) with low read noise
Same video stuff as t4i
New 5DIII-inspired AF with at least one f/8 AF point in the center and 4 helper f/8 AF points around it
Still crop mode (1.4x - 12MP) activated by the video zoom switch
8fps in full-frame mode
12fps in 1.4x still crop mode
$1,999 body only at launch.

All three would have the new JPEG engine from the 1DX and 5DIII.

And the bonus feature - no more CR2 files. DNG instead, with the ability to use the new lossy-compressed DNG mode which is far, far superior to M-raw and S-raw. This way we can have instant compatibility with Lightroom at launch and a publicly-documented image format.


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## Marsu42 (May 1, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> I wouldn't hold off on buying a 7D just because they are due to replace it. We don't even have a CR1 on a 7D yet and who knows if/when they will be announced, let alone available for purchase.


Since Canon is very secretive about upcoming products, if there is no [CRx] it doesn't mean anything - while it's a nice forum, imho your guess about new Canon releases is as good as mine or CR's. The best option is still to look at the timeline, it's pretty consistent lately: http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html#canon_age_chart


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## D_Rochat (May 1, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> D_Rochat said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't hold off on buying a 7D just because they are due to replace it. We don't even have a CR1 on a 7D yet and who knows if/when they will be announced, let alone available for purchase.
> ...



I've seen these timelines before and it doesn't mean anything. Being that there is only one 7D, you can't judge when we'll see a new one by how long a previous model was out for. If the life span is anything like the 5D, I wouldn't expect to see or hear of one for at least another 6 months. 

My point was not to hold your breath on a 7D replacement because it could be a while. It may never even come.


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## Rodknee (May 2, 2012)

In the UK they are now re-running TV adverts for the Canon 650d including £50 cashback, this rebate scheme runs until June. If they are spending money on TV adverts then I can't see the T4i/650D coming out anytime soon. UNLESS it is so different to the 600D that it is in a different market segment which seems very, very unlikely even if they have created room in their range by making the 5D mkiii so much more expensive.


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## c3hammer (May 2, 2012)

Lee Jay said:


> ..T4i - 20-22MP conventional sensor.
> 4fps
> Continuous electronic (windowed) zoom in video activated by P&S-inspired zoom switch at the shutter release
> Continuous video AF
> ...


Lee Jay, if they could pull that cat out of the bag it will be game over for Sony and Nikon again.

Canon just doesn't seem like the type to add that much in one go. Here's hoping still though. I use my T3i for video mostly and all those features are on my hit list and I'd be the first in line to preorder if it has the Digic5, a new sensor and 1080/60p.

Cheers,
Pete


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## Albi86 (May 2, 2012)

Canon is providing a 650D before a new 60D/7D for 2 reasons:
- Consumers are the biggest segment of market
- Canon 1100D cannot compete with Nikon D3200

Basically Canon can't let Nikon win that easily in this segment, so the rush for a new, competitive, product. 

That said, I would not expect any major improvement over the 600D except for Digic5 and maybe a few MP (21 is my bet). It will be just enough to keep the competition alive. We could have the 19-points AF fromt the 7D, but only if Canon plans to use the new 5D3 AF's scheme (or something similar) in the upper segment APS-C cameras. It also depends on where in the price scale this camera will be placed. I bet slightly above the D3200, with the 600D sinking slightly below.


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## !Xabbu (May 2, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> That said, I would not expect any major improvement over the 600D except for Digic5 and maybe a few MP (21 is my bet). It will be just enough to keep the competition alive. We could have the 19-points AF fromt the 7D, but only if Canon plans to use the new 5D3 AF's scheme (or something similar) in the upper segment APS-C cameras. It also depends on where in the price scale this camera will be placed. I bet slightly above the D3200, with the 600D sinking slightly below.



You wouldn't expect any major improvement, but in the same sentence you say that the 19-point AF could be a possibility? That would catapult the 650D above the 60D. One of the big distinctions between 600D, 60D and 7D is their AF system.

I guess this is as probable as the mentioned "New 5DIII-inspired AF with at least one f/8 AF point in the center and 4 helper f/8 AF points around it" for the 7D II. This would essentially be the best AF system Canon ever built and they would never introduce this in an APS-C camera...


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## Albi86 (May 3, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > That said, I would not expect any major improvement over the 600D except for Digic5 and maybe a few MP (21 is my bet). It will be just enough to keep the competition alive. We could have the 19-points AF fromt the 7D, but only if Canon plans to use the new 5D3 AF's scheme (or something similar) in the upper segment APS-C cameras. It also depends on where in the price scale this camera will be placed. I bet slightly above the D3200, with the 600D sinking slightly below.
> ...



Compared to the 5D3's AF, the 7D's 19-points looks ridiculous. The upper tier of APS-C cameras MUST feature at least a 30-40 points AF. Actually the 7D has a better AF than the 5D2, so why a new 7D should have a worse AF than the 5D3? Nikon D7000 has already a 39-points AF with 9 cross-type points, and it's not the newset camera around nor the most expensive. If the market standards rise up, also mid-tier cameras will benefit of it. But as I said, it depends on Canon's plans for the upper tier.

Furthermore, 60D and 7D are clearly at the end of their life cycle. The Digic5 alone would require a refresh in that segment. Whenever a new technology becomes available, companies has to implement it in their high-end products or they will be not that "high-end" any more. The 60Da and the new 7D firmware look a lot to me like the last breaths of these bodies.


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## moreorless (May 3, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> Compared to the 5D3's AF, the 7D's 19-points looks ridiculous. The upper tier of APS-C cameras MUST feature at least a 30-40 points AF. Actually the 7D has a better AF than the 5D2, so why a new 7D should have a worse AF than the 5D3? Nikon D7000 has already a 39-points AF with 9 cross-type points, and it's not the newset camera around nor the most expensive. If the market standards rise up, also mid-tier cameras will benefit of it. But as I said, it depends on Canon's plans for the upper tier.
> 
> Furthermore, 60D and 7D are clearly at the end of their life cycle. The Digic5 alone would require a refresh in that segment. Whenever a new technology becomes available, companies has to implement it in their high-end products or they will be not that "high-end" any more. The 60Da and the new 7D firmware look a lot to me like the last breaths of these bodies.



His first point was just that you considered 7D AF to be a minor upgrade to the xxxD line when it would argeubley be the largest upgrade in the lines entire history. Add in a new 21 MP sensor and I'd say thats about as far from "just keeping the line alive" as you can get.

As far as the 7D mk2's potential AF's goes remember that such a system would not just outgun the 5D mk3 but also the 1DX. Remember aswell that the 5D mk3 has moved up in the market, we don't know that the 7D mk2 will do the same (if its even released) although if it did I'm guessing that higher FPS would be its main spec beyond the 5D mk3.


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## Albi86 (May 3, 2012)

moreorless said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > Compared to the 5D3's AF, the 7D's 19-points looks ridiculous. The upper tier of APS-C cameras MUST feature at least a 30-40 points AF. Actually the 7D has a better AF than the 5D2, so why a new 7D should have a worse AF than the 5D3? Nikon D7000 has already a 39-points AF with 9 cross-type points, and it's not the newset camera around nor the most expensive. If the market standards rise up, also mid-tier cameras will benefit of it. But as I said, it depends on Canon's plans for the upper tier.
> ...



I'm sorry it sounded that way, what I meant is that the 650D could replace the 60D line, so that there will be just one high-end APS-C above it. Basically how it was in the past with the 50D. I realize just now that I thought it but didn't write 
A 600D costs around 550€ while a 60D costs around 750€, I don't know if it's so likely to have a 650D at 650€ or so. As there have been voices of a merge between 60D and 7D, I would not be surprised if the 650D is the new intended prosumer flagship at around 800-900€, leaving room for a 1200€+ professional APS-C and a 1800€+ entry level FF.

However, whatever the top APS-C will be, I do not expect it to be much inferior (if any) to the 5D3 as far as specs are concerned. So a 19-points AF in the lower segment would sound possible.


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## Marsu42 (May 3, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> However, whatever the top APS-C will be, I do not expect it to be much inferior (if any) to the 5D3 as far as specs are concerned. So a 19-points AF in the lower segment would sound possible.



This would mean that Canon would plan to keep aps-c dlsrs alive along ff for those people who like the built-in teleconverter of crop sensors or have ef-s lenses. If this market segment is big enough, Canon might do just that. But my bet is still that they dump the 7d2, raise the 650d a bit above the mirrorless market, position the 70d with a better where the 50d used to be and then make everything like the 5d2 successor (6d?) above that full frame.

This would be a sound strategy because ff sensors have a lot of potential in the future, while aps-c is close to being maxed out and in addition to that, good ef L lenses generate more revenue for Canon.


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## Albi86 (May 3, 2012)

D800 is quite a revolution in this sense. Til today APS-C had the reach advantage which allowed to have more pixels on subject, and this is also one reason why wildlife shooters picked the 7D sooner than the 5D2. But with 36MP you can easily crop half the picture away and still have a 18MP image. 

But apart from this, APS-C will continue to be the biggest part of DSLR market, at least until we'll have consumer-priced FF cameras. I don't think this will happen any time before (at least) 10 years (if ever). So maybe it's the end of the _professional_ APS-C segment, but I wouldn't swear on it either.


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## moreorless (May 3, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > However, whatever the top APS-C will be, I do not expect it to be much inferior (if any) to the 5D3 as far as specs are concerned. So a 19-points AF in the lower segment would sound possible.
> ...



ASPC makes up the vast majority of Canons DSLR sales so I think your rather premature in believe its on the way out.

Its an interesting idea that Canon might raise the xxxD line in the market a bit and position a mirrorless release below(maybe phasing out the xxxxD altogether?). If that were to happen having at least 7D AF on every DSLR would make sense, maximise the difference in AF performance and make it clear thats what your paying for over mirrorless.


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## Marsu42 (May 3, 2012)

moreorless said:


> ASPC makes up the vast majority of Canons DSLR sales so I think your rather premature in believe its on the way out.



A wise enterprise predicts future markets and reacts accordingly. Kodak had global domination of the analog film market, and when the tech changed maybe they thought too: "this makes up the vast majority of our sales, so why would it be on its way out?". And look what happened to Kodak.



moreorless said:


> Its an interesting idea that Canon might raise the xxxD line in the market a bit and position a mirrorless release below(maybe phasing out the xxxxD altogether?). If that were to happen having at least 7D AF on every DSLR would make sense, maximise the difference in AF performance and make it clear thats what your paying for over mirrorless.



Marketing-wise, it would be clever to reserve the xd name for full frame "I've got money and want to show it" bodies, along with red ring lenses - so xxd and xxx is for cheapos. And they certainly won't put the exact 7d af on xxxd bodies - Ken Rockwell would write it doesn't work right out of the box because there are so many options. But I think that more af fields might appear in the xxd line because that's what's the main problem with tracking on the 60d.


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## Marine03 (May 3, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Marketing-wise, it would be clever to reserve the xd name for full frame "I've got money and want to show it" bodies, along with red ring lenses - so xxd and xxx is for cheapos. And they certainly won't put the exact 7d af on xxxd bodies - Ken Rockwell would write it doesn't work right out of the box because there are so many options. But I think that more af fields might appear in the xxd line because that's what's the main problem with tracking on the 60d.



If the 7D2 never happens and mirrorless takes place basically of the XXXd entry line then the there is no harm is putting more AF points in all the camera's as long as its less than the 5D3. I'm no math wiz but 19pts seems alot less than 63 in the high end camera's and is a good selling point over the competition or may still only have 10 pts or something.


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## Dylan777 (May 3, 2012)

I hope it has swivel screen & same 19pts focus as 7D or better. I need to get crop body to pair up with my 5D III.


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## sandymandy (May 3, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> - Canon 1100D cannot compete with Nikon D3200



D3200 Body only is 600 Euro, 1100D Body only is 330 Euro. Thats a big difference and i dont think D3200 is supposed to be the lowest entry level DSLR.


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## Albi86 (May 3, 2012)

sandymandy said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > - Canon 1100D cannot compete with Nikon D3200
> ...



Just at the moment, imho. 
The price will sink very quickly to about 500€, as traditionally the D3XXX is Nikon's entry level segment. It's meant to be between the 1100D and the 600D, sacking customers from both segments. You pay a little premium over the 1100D for a much better camera, you get a camera comparable (if not better, to some extent) to 600D for less money. Typical Nikon strategy, as seen with D7000. Quite effective too, if Canon felt the urge to release a 650D. 
Just my guess, of course.


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## untitled10 (May 3, 2012)

Astro said:


> more minor updates i guess?
> 
> oh wait more video stuff... great (that was sarcasm).
> 
> ...



I think we can put off the rebel series as "the" indie video camera, who needs a DoF adapter now?
This is why the 1100d didn't have 1080p (or even 1080i) it would destroy the entire rebel market.


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## !Xabbu (May 5, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> moreorless said:
> 
> 
> > ASPC makes up the vast majority of Canons DSLR sales so I think your rather premature in believe its on the way out.
> ...



The difference here is that FF digital is not a new technology and it doesn't have any inherent advantages to APS-C (unlike digital sensors vs. film). They are both the same technology just in different sizes. If your statement would be true, everything should develop towards larger sensors. However, the majority of cameras built have tiny sensors (mobile phones) - the next biggest group will soon be mirror-less and I don't believe that we will see a mirror-less FF soon. The reason people buy these is because they are not as bulky as a DSLR (a FF sensor and the needed lens would counter this "advantage"). So, Canon might miss the future market in mirror-less development - agreed.

However, until mirror-less are focusing as fast as DSLRs we will still have a very healthy APS-C market.


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## osvaldod (May 7, 2012)

Hi !!
I have a SX30 IS and I would like to get into DSRL. I'm thinking in buying a 600D but I discovered this thred talking about the 650D. When do you think this new camera will be released in Europe?
I live in Argentina and my wife is in Europe now until end of May. I dont think the 650D will be released before that time so do you think the 600D is good enough to begin with DSRL?
Of course, Im not a professional and I use my SX30 IS with CHDK to save in RAW format.
I also knew about Magic Lantern thru this forum. Is it another version of CHDK ??


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## D_Rochat (May 7, 2012)

osvaldod said:


> I dont think the 650D will be released before that time so do you think the 600D is good enough to begin with DSRL?



The 450D is good enough to start off with, so yes the 600D is more than enough! I'd even say that if you don't mind not having a flippy swively screen, go for the 550D. It's pretty much the same thing but a little cheaper. Save yourself a little money on the body and get yourself another lens like a 50 1.8.


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## Marsu42 (May 7, 2012)

osvaldod said:


> I dont think the 650D will be released before that time so do you think the 600D is good enough to begin with DSRL? I also knew about Magic Lantern thru this forum. Is it another version of CHDK ??


We had this question a couple of times, and for it has an even more certain answer: Get a 600d now, because it runs magic lantern while the 650d with its new digic5 won't for some time, if ever.

Apart the "swivel screen isn't pro" opinion from guys who mostly never used one for an extended time, imho the swivel screen is handy in some situations and has now drawback, so given the minor price difference nowadays either get a new 600d or a used 550d. Magic lantern is basically chdk for eos bodies with a lot more features, see http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ


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## AdamJ (May 7, 2012)

Just my $0.02 on AF. To my mind, good AF shouldn't be, and won't be, an extra feature confined to the better bodies. It's too fundamental to the camera's overall performance. My expectation is that, sooner or later, the 7D's AF system will become the standard AF system for all APS-C bodies.


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## D_Rochat (May 7, 2012)

AdamJ said:


> Just my $0.02 on AF. To my mind, good AF shouldn't be, and won't be, an extra feature confined to the better bodies. It's too fundamental to the camera's overall performance. My expectation is that, sooner or later, the 7D's AF system will become the standard AF system for all APS-C bodies.



I agree that we may see an upgraded AF system in the xxD line, but I doubt we'll see anything other than the standard 9 point in the xxxD line. They're purposely going to limit what goes into the xxxD to encourage people to move up.


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## xtaski (May 7, 2012)

I use my DSLR for photography, so I have very little need for video features other than the convenience of that option being there. Just my 2 cents, but the only reason I upgraded from a T1i (500D) to a T3i (600D) was the ability to use my Speedlite 430 EX II as a wireless slave. There was very little other than some improvements in video that made the upgrade worth it. Other than that, more megapixels to play with... not much else new IMO.


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## well_dunno (May 7, 2012)

The 650D or T4i is going to have a digic 5 processor that is 6 times faster than digic 4, so it is going to have more cpu power than the 7D as it is... I do not know what it will transform into but my guess is less noise and higher fps. I do wish it would get the AF from the 7D but I am afraid it will have the same 9 point AF again : Otherwise not much would remain to distinguish it from a 70D and and potentially a 7DmarkII unless they use the digic 5+ on those to do some other miracles... IMHO anyway... 

Cheers!


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## osvaldod (May 8, 2012)

Thank you for your replies and opinion. Now, Im more decided on getting the 600D. I think in getting this combo. What do you think about it?
http://www.amazon.de/Canon-SLR-Digitalkamera-Megapixel-schwenkbares-Double-Zoom-Kit/dp/B004P8IX5C/ref=lh_ni_t


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## D_Rochat (May 8, 2012)

osvaldod said:


> Thank you for your replies and opinion. Now, Im more decided on getting the 600D. I think in getting this combo. What do you think about it?
> http://www.amazon.de/Canon-SLR-Digitalkamera-Megapixel-schwenkbares-Double-Zoom-Kit/dp/B004P8IX5C/ref=lh_ni_t



I think that's an excellent starter kit and you won't be disappointed. That kit should keep you happy for quite some time.


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## Marsu42 (May 8, 2012)

osvaldod said:


> Thank you for your replies and opinion. Now, Im more decided on getting the 600D. I think in getting this combo. What do you think about it?


I think you'd ask yourself if you really need the tele kit lens - while std range kit lenses are ok stopped down, imho there are few things worse than a cheap tele zoom because the image quality not very good and in many cases you're better off shooting with a better, shorter lens and then crop. If this is your first dlsr, you have much to learn and after some month will be better equipped to tell what your second lens should be.

That being said, the 55-250 doesn't seem to be that crappy apart from build quality - but if you should decide to get it later, it's sold on ebay for a bargain because many kit users are upgrading to something more worthwile... or if you want it new after all, there's a 30€ cashback running for it until end of June in Germany: http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/03/electronics/features/canon/Canon_CashBack_Teilnahmebedingungen.pdf


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## osvaldod (May 8, 2012)

Well. I usually use telezoom, that's why I would like that double kit. And yes, I have much to learn. I don´t know if I will buy it yet. It depends on other things but and I'm very anxious to get it. I will know it sometime this month.
Is there any place where I can download some RAW images (and JPGs) taken with 600D? I would like to develop them with Adobe Lightroom and see what is the result specially with the noise.


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## Marsu42 (May 8, 2012)

osvaldod said:


> Is there any place where I can download some RAW images (and JPGs) taken with 600D? I would like to develop them with Adobe Lightroom and see what is the result specially with the noise.


600d has the same sensor as 550d/60d/7d (the latter has the worst iq due to banding): http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Canon+cr2+samples&l=1#


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## dr croubie (May 8, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> 600d has the same sensor as 550d/60d/7d (the latter has the worst iq due to banding): http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Canon+cr2+samples&l=1#


And yet the 7D has the higher score on DxO?


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## Marsu42 (May 8, 2012)

dr croubie said:


> And yet the 7D has the higher score on DxO?


This tells something about dxo scores - 5d3 owners obviously think so, too. And the strength of banding on the 7d seems to vary some from copy to copy, so you might be lucky with your 7d sample. And banding occurs when raising dark areas. so if you expose properly to begin with you won't see it - it occurs on the 60d, too, but to a lesser extent. Anyway: http://a2bart.com/tech/allcamdknz.htm


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## rubidium (May 9, 2012)

Hope we get some specs soon. Discounted 600D is looking pretty tempting.


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## dr croubie (May 9, 2012)

rubidium said:


> Hope we get some specs soon. Discounted 600D is looking pretty tempting.



I always keep track of ebay auctions, check this one out:
EFs 10-22 go for $550-650 second hand
600D I checked, seem to go for $400-600 second hand ($350 i saw for waterdamaged repair-only)
50/1.8 II go for $60-70 new, no idea what 2nd hand.

I saw an auction for all 3 together (in apparently very good nick, <2k shutter on the 600D) go for only $930 yesterday. I certainly wanted in on it (just to split and resell, maybe keep the 10-22), but didn't have the cash. Maybe the 600D is lowering in 2nd hand price from anticipation of the 650D? maybe nikon has killed their market? Either way, that equated to a $300 600D with a free niftyfifty, there might be more of them to come...


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## briansquibb (May 9, 2012)

dr croubie said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > 600d has the same sensor as 550d/60d/7d (the latter has the worst iq due to banding): http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Canon+cr2+samples&l=1#
> ...


That sounds more of a reflection on the DxO scoring ....


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## osvaldod (May 9, 2012)

I think most of you are professional. How do you manage noise in RAW photos (with Lightroom or Photoshop with Camera Raw). I usually change the luminance and color in Noise Reduction but when I do this I lose details.


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## Marsu42 (May 10, 2012)

osvaldod said:


> I think most of you are professional. How do you manage noise in RAW photos (with Lightroom or Photoshop with Camera Raw). I usually change the luminance and color in Noise Reduction but when I do this I lose details.



You don't need to be a pro to figure out nr in Lightroom: 1. use LR4, it has smarter shadow recovery and thus less need for nr, 2. only denoise so much that your final export size doesn't show more noise than you can live with (i.e. don't denoise at 100% crop and loose detail no matter what), 3. if needed counter nr with sharpening until artifacts show up, the default settings usually work pretty ok, but you can get much more out of it by tweaking the parameters - watch/read tutorials for this, it cannot be covered in one post, 4. if all fails try adaptive denoising with Noise Ninja as an alternative.


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## !Xabbu (May 12, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> osvaldod said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you for your replies and opinion. Now, Im more decided on getting the 600D. I think in getting this combo. What do you think about it?
> ...



+1 don't get the kit lens. I got a 450D with the kit lens and my pictures didn't look any better than a point-and-shoot. Then after about 4 months I upgraded to the Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 (non-VC) and the difference was huge. Good glass makes a much bigger difference than a body (i.e. you will get better pictures out of a 600D with an L lens than out of a 1D IV with a 600D kit lens).


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## briansquibb (May 12, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> (i.e. you will get better pictures out of a 600D with an L lens than out of a 1D IV with a 600D kit lens).



You are right there : : :


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## Marsu42 (May 12, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> !Xabbu said:
> 
> 
> > (i.e. you will get better pictures out of a 600D with an L lens than out of a 1D IV with a 600D kit lens).
> ...



I didn't post this lately  ... Pro DSLR + Cheapo Lens vs "Cheapo" DSLR + Pro Lens


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## tomkatsu (May 14, 2012)

How soon is "soon" for the T4i?


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## D_Rochat (May 14, 2012)

tomkatsu said:


> How soon is "soon" for the T4i?



Sooner than later.


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