# Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 10, 2011)

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<p><strong>The new feature?</strong>

I’m told Canon has prototype flashes with radio receivers built in. They’ll be triggered by an updated ST-E2. Yes, wireless radio Canon flashes, by Canon.</p>
<p>I had been told previously that Canon’s next flagship flash would have new and innovative technology built in, this could be that.</p>
<p>No ETA on an announcement.</p>
<p><strong>5D Mark II/III

</strong>Lots of stock shortage reports of the 5D Mark II. No, it’s not being replaced anytime soon. Canon cannot provide enough stock at the current moment. Adorama does have <strong><a href="http://www.adorama.com/ICA5DM2.html?kbid=64393">5D Mark II’s in stock for $2699</a></strong>.</p>
<p>There were some rumors floating around about a May announcement of a 5D Mark III. I’ll say “not likely”.</p>
<p><strong>1D Mark IV stock.</strong>

1D Mark IV’s, don’t expect to see many of them well into the summer.</p>
<p><strong>I’ve been busy

</strong>I’ve been busy with other ventures recently. Mainly moving Lens Rentals Canada to new digs and ramping up for the wedding season rentals.</p>
<p>Most of what is coming my way is about stock levels.</p>
<p><strong>Announcements

</strong>I’m told from a good source that Canon is discussing the delaying of new product announcements until they can at least deliver what was announced last year. Everything is still up in the air as companies still don’t have a firm grasp on what will happen with their ability to manufacture in the coming months.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## leGreve (May 10, 2011)

I take it that these new flashes radio will be compatible with the Pocket Wizard series. That would be a nice addition. I've held back from buying the Canon flashes this might be a turn around point for me.


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## dg28 (May 10, 2011)

Canon have always said that they would not want to produce a piece of kit that could not be used all over the world. The issue with radio triggered flash is that the frequencies used in the USA and Europe are very different - US Pocket Wizards are illegal in the UK and most of Europe which would make this wonderful idea very tricky to actually implement.

For the record, I hope that it is true but the technical and regulatory difficulties mean that it could just be wishful thinking.

A new and much better version of the ST-E2 is more likely, sadly...


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## Flake (May 10, 2011)

While it might be true that US Wizzards are illegal in the EU that doesn't appear to be the case the other way around and the US frequency is a free choice rather than an allocated frequency. Japan on the other hand may well be an allocated frequency which is different.

http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/technology/frequency/

433MHz appears to be the most common frequency, and that is also available in the US, it might be a possibility with a GPS camera to automatically switch frequency to the country of use, although these would be very limited.

Of course range is going to be the big issue especially if they're E-TTL, Pocket Wizzards Flex TT5 have a range of only10 metres ! not much of an improvement over the current infra red system. Canon will have to engineer the flash to emit less RF noise.

http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/technology/range/

I for one think that the ST-E2 is a clunky expensive solution, it's becomming less relevant as functionality is built into the body, surely Canon would build any new remote system into the camera, and drop the old infra red system, leaving the ST-E2 as the transmitter solution for those with older flash units.


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## pkn (May 10, 2011)

I'm not familiar with pros and cons for use of different frequencies for different applications, but would it be feasible to use the wifi bands (802.11) for transmitting the required information between the camera and the flashes? This might extend the functionality of the wifi-grips and hence increase the sales of a fairly expensive piece of kit.
PK


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## JohnnyWashngo (May 10, 2011)

As PKN above said, I would assume that the new system would use one of the common wireless frequencies so as to maintain usable in all parts of the world - one of the 802.11 variations or something like Bluetooth would be obvious choices.


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## neuroanatomist (May 10, 2011)

Flake said:


> Pocket Wizzards Flex TT5 have a range of only10 metres ! not much of an improvement over the current infra red system.



Yes, with an unshielded 580EX II. With my 430EX II's, the PWs trigger just fine out to several hundred meters. Even with a shortened range, RF has the benefit of not needing to be line of sight, working in bright sunlight, working with the flash inside a modifier, etc.


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## Bob Howland (May 10, 2011)

Maybe it'll use "Bluetooth Low Energy". My question is whether Canon will introduce a small, cheap module to attach to the foot of existing flashes (e.g., 580EX2) to allow them to be used in the new system. If they don't, will third party vendors do it instead? The new system would presumably simplify using slave flashes but I'm not too keen on replacing the four 550EX's and one 580EX2 that I own now.


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## gmrza (May 10, 2011)

JohnnyWashngo said:


> As PKN above said, I would assume that the new system would use one of the common wireless frequencies so as to maintain usable in all parts of the world - one of the 802.11 variations or something like Bluetooth would be obvious choices.



I have my doubts that Canon would use 802.11[a/b/g/n], however it is possible that they might use one of the ISM bands (which are used by WiFi products). Some wireless flash triggers (like the Elinchrom Skyport) do already use the 2.4GHz band. The only potential issue is interference with WiFi equipment, as users would now potentially need to ensure that they set their flash and WiFi equipment to use different channels. Potentially if you are in an area where the ISM band is already crowded with WiFi signals, you may have problems operating a flash trigger system.

For going wireless, the ISM band may still be one of the best bets though.


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## 7enderbender (May 10, 2011)

dg28 said:


> Canon have always said that they would not want to produce a piece of kit that could not be used all over the world. The issue with radio triggered flash is that the frequencies used in the USA and Europe are very different - US Pocket Wizards are illegal in the UK and most of Europe which would make this wonderful idea very tricky to actually implement.
> 
> For the record, I hope that it is true but the technical and regulatory difficulties mean that it could just be wishful thinking.
> 
> A new and much better version of the ST-E2 is more likely, sadly...




I agree. Given the quirky legal and regulatory issues around the world built in radio wireless systems seem pretty unlikely. As a musician I've been through this general problem a few times already. You buy wireless instrument transmitters or microphones and then you can't legally use them everywhere. And a few months later some regulatory body sells the frequency to some cell phone provider or new digital TV service and you end up with a rack full of electronic junk.

Maybe not as convenient but better to keep wireless systems separate from cameras and flashes. Updating the IR wireless system would still be a plus (more and all groups on the ST-E2, more individual control, other ratios method, better receivers in more places, etc)


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## Lawliet (May 10, 2011)

dg28 said:


> For the record, I hope that it is true but the technical and regulatory difficulties mean that it could just be wishful thinking.


Well, building an RX for PW frequencies might be possible - if nothing is sent it doesn't annoy anybody.
ISM 2,4GHz and 5,8GHz should be ok for non legacy use. 

I wonder how interaction with legacy devices would be handled - perhaps an ST-E2 with radio in, optical out? Having to buy radio feet for every unit would hinder acceptance.

And more important to me: the PW AC3 offers much better control over the setup, back to ratios and strict seperation of TTL and manual power?


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## Justin (May 10, 2011)

Really! Canon needs to deliver on what they promised us in the last nine months. Super tele refresh. And the fisheye zoom. And don't forget the 200-400 f/4 1.4x!!

Bodies can't come soon enough for many of us, but we'll just have to wait. 

Other new lenses can't come soon enough, but I have a hunch I'll be on this site repeating myself for the next few years on the last two especially (24-70 2.8 IS, 14-24 2.8, 85 1.4 IS).


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## awinphoto (May 10, 2011)

Just remember they (canon) are still recovering from the quake, repairing factories, and trying to return to any sense of normality. I dont know how their government and safety reguglations, however if they're anything like the US, they may not even be allowed to operate in any of the heavily damaged factories until the structure is deemed repaired and safe. This includes the big factory that deals with L lenses and such. Until everything is repaired and back online, it's anyones guess how long it will take to get caught up and even longer until they start releasing new cameras/announcements. A lot can change between now and then so i wouldn't get too excited just about this too much. Once they are back to normal, then by all means get excited.


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## Stuart (May 10, 2011)

Wifi and Bluetooth have been problematic in the past for quick time critical information flow - flash sync speed.
Though the frequencies themselves might be used at low powers.

Other options are multiband radio's like you get in mobile phones to work in many locations - or mayebe even plug-in radio card's for different regions.

But if they licenced PW technology then the camera could have a PW transmitter fitted and the flash could be the receiver - or vis versa in mew bodies or with the new ST-E2.


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## ronderick (May 10, 2011)

I think 2011 is pretty much going to be a quiet year in terms of new products (I can't imagine how they're going to get more power when people will have to depend on air con during the summer month. BTW, Japan just announced they're shutting down another nuke plant in Hamaoka - which isn't even in the disaster area...)

Also, wouldn't adding the radio receiver or whatever wireless option shorten battery life even further? Carrying loads of AA batteries is already a pain as it is...


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## awinphoto (May 10, 2011)

To me, for what I use my flashes for, what I would like to see are universal canon rechargeable batteries for the flashes... Use the outdated BP-511's we all have from our older cameras and have several laying around, and make the flashes compatible with those batteries, or even the new batteries for the 7D/5D mII. It would encourage the purchase of more of THEIR BATTERIES, be rechargeable, and encourage their branding than plunking $10-15 on a new pack of AA's every few shoots... That would be a change I would upgrade my flashes for.


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## 7enderbender (May 10, 2011)

Stuart said:


> Wifi and Bluetooth have been problematic in the past for quick time critical information flow - flash sync speed.
> Though the frequencies themselves might be used at low powers.
> 
> Other options are multiband radio's like you get in mobile phones to work in many locations - or mayebe even plug-in radio card's for different regions.
> ...



I don't think that has anything to do with whether or not they license/buy PW technology. Even the Pocket Wizards come in different versions for different regions. And even then there there may be countries where it's technically illegal to sell and/or use them.

In any case I don't see how Canon would sell a flash with a built in wireless thingy in the US when they'd have to tell their customers that they could be in trouble when traveling to Paris or Melbourne with it. Maybe they could make it "multiband" like with cell phones? Seems like too much hassle for a camera company that wants to sell one version of a product world wide.

If it was just about putting in a few parts for 50 cents somebody would have done it already. For everything else we can thank our FCCs and their counterparts in the world for overregulating very basic local use of radio frequencies.


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## 7enderbender (May 10, 2011)

awinphoto said:


> To me, for what I use my flashes for, what I would like to see are universal canon rechargeable batteries for the flashes... Use the outdated BP-511's we all have from our older cameras and have several laying around, and make the flashes compatible with those batteries, or even the new batteries for the 7D/5D mII. It would encourage the purchase of more of THEIR BATTERIES, be rechargeable, and encourage their branding than plunking $10-15 on a new pack of AA's every few shoots... That would be a change I would upgrade my flashes for.



Why? I'm perfectly happy with the universal AA batteries which I can buy at any gas station or convenience store anywhere in the world. And I don't have any BP whatever just lying around. I invested in a few batteries for my 5DII and wouldn't want to contribute to their early demise by using them in my flashes. I mean, really, we are looking here at the problems resulting from lacking international standards (radio frequencies) and you are advocating a proprietary battery solution for flashes as a replacement for what works everywhere and is cheap? And for more power there are already external battery packs. 

And why $10-15 for AA per shoot? What's wrong with rechargeable AAs?


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## unfocused (May 10, 2011)

I don't know anything about the regulatory environment, but I hope this is true. I'd love to have radio/wi-fi/bluetooth or whatever flash control with full E-TTL features.

If they do this, they'll most likely make receivers for the existing 580EXII and 430EXII. I'd also bet that the next generation of cameras will have the transmitters built in, like the infrared flash control for the 7D. In fact, I'd guess they'll offer both for the near term, so that cameras and flashes remain compatible for at least the next few years. 

I'd also guess that the next generation of strobes will have the LED auxiliary light that the new 320 EX has. Must keep the video market happy.

Compatibility with third-party radio control? I'm doubting that's a priority. Doing a third-party vendor a favor is usually not on any company's priority list.


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## awinphoto (May 10, 2011)

Basically because of the difference between the memory loss within rechargeable AA batteries... The fact that when you first buy the batteries, you may (for instance) get 400 pops per charge then shortly after it drops to 300 then down to 150... you get my point... The canon batteries, while a tad more than $10-15, are 1 battery vs 4, you can pick up the BP-511's on ebay for a song and a dance or you can get the bigger 5d,7d batteries for a bit more, have more charge in them, and at least with the 5d's/7D's you get a good computer chip that tells you how that battery is doing and if you need a new one... On the metz 70mz series they provide them with a rechargeable battery and that thing is a beast. Those lasted me 2-3 times the shooting time than many colleagues who had the regular flashes... unfortunately I had to part ways with that flash unit but I'd like to see that kinda battery implemented in these flashes... Even rebels have rechargeable batteries and the 580's are getting into the lower rebel price range so i'd like to see that upgrade. Heck i'm sure if I was at Canon's R&D and proposed that, I'd get a raise. =) It's a win win for canon shooters with several spare canon batteries and canon inc.


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## Lawliet (May 10, 2011)

awinphoto said:


> Use the outdated BP-511's we all have from our older cameras and have several laying around, and make the flashes compatible with those batteries, or even the new batteries for the 7D/5D mII.



The reason I leave the 1D4 at home at longer trips is the logistics mess you describe.
Eneloops power everything from flashlights to GPS and hand radios to all kinds of photography equipment across brands- one type of charger, one pool of cells. 

We could talk about CR123/18650 dual purpose slots, but such expensive batteries with such a limited scope?


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## awinphoto (May 10, 2011)

Lawliet said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Use the outdated BP-511's we all have from our older cameras and have several laying around, and make the flashes compatible with those batteries, or even the new batteries for the 7D/5D mII.
> ...



I know I dont speak for everybody, but I just dont really see a downside for canon to produce and provide a battery with at least their top of the line flash unit that can be used with their cameras. A flash is an accessory and part of bigger system. The average professional I would guesstimate would have 2-3 spare batteries, especially if they shoot alot, and most, while on location, typically carries their charger with them if needed. If you're at a wedding and you run out of AA's, you have to either stop using flash, have your assistant run to 7-11 to grab more, or improvise. If you use the same batteries your camera use, pop in a spare battery and put the other one on charge if available. I think if they find ways to simplify and unite consumables such as batteries it would be more convenient in the long run and better in every regard.


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## neuroanatomist (May 10, 2011)

awinphoto said:


> I know I dont speak for everybody, but I just dont really see a downside for canon to produce and provide a battery with at least their top of the line flash unit that can be used with their cameras. A flash is an accessory and part of bigger system...I think if they find ways to simplify and unite consumables such as batteries it would be more convenient in the long run and better in every regard.



Agreed. I like the fact that both my 5DII and my 7D use the same battery, and it would be great if that battery would power a flash, too. But it's only viable IF they keep the same battery through many product updates. I really can't wait for induction charging to become a practical reality - one charging pad that you just set your devices or batteries on to charge. As it is, I've got about 8 different chargers just for camera/video gear...


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## t.linn (May 11, 2011)

I'm a little surprised by the moderate levels of enthusiam for this potential breakthrough in flash photography. The idea of being able to control flashes remotely without spending hundreds of dollars in additional gear *per flash* plus the loss of high speed sync, etc., is HUGE for me. People have been asking for this forever. I'm surprised it has taken so long for someone to do it.

This rumor may be CR2 but remember that it is undisputed that Canon filed a patent last year for wireless flash control using ZigBee. (It was mentioned on this site.) I don't think there's any reason to think that the protocol will be anything other than this. 

I can't' wait!!!


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## Admin US West (May 11, 2011)

awinphoto said:


> To me, for what I use my flashes for, what I would like to see are universal canon rechargeable batteries for the flashes... Use the outdated BP-511's we all have from our older cameras and have several laying around, and make the flashes compatible with those batteries, or even the new batteries for the 7D/5D mII. It would encourage the purchase of more of THEIR BATTERIES, be rechargeable, and encourage their branding than plunking $10-15 on a new pack of AA's every few shoots... That would be a change I would upgrade my flashes for.



The reason we do not see BP-511 LI-on batteries being used with the higher powered flash units has to do with their current output characteristics. They just can't handle the high current level it takes to run a high powered flash. They are ok for the on-camera flashes which charge slowly, but if you want to have high current, you would need multiple lithium-ion batteries in parallel. The relatively high internal resistance is the issue. At low currents, it is a non problem, but at large currents it is a big issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

Internal resistance

The internal resistance of standard (Cobalt) lithium-ion batteries is high compared to both other rechargeable chemistries such as nickel-metal hydride and nickel-cadmium, and LiFePO4 and lithium-polymer cells.[43] Internal resistance increases with both cycling and age.[39][44][45] Rising internal resistance causes the voltage at the terminals to drop under load, which reduces the maximum current draw. Eventually increasing resistance means that the battery can no longer operate for an adequate period.


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## Lawliet (May 11, 2011)

awinphoto said:


> I think if they find ways to simplify and unite consumables such as batteries it would be more convenient in the long run and better in every regard.



We have that: AA, 18650. The LiFe 18650 even deliver serious current, more power from a single cell then those external hvppacks for the 580EXII. 
The 5DII/7D uses a different battery then the 1D4, and what are the chances that any 3rd party devices will use one of those batteries? And thats only for single brand shooters, also use Nikon and you end up with 5 or 6 additional different battery types you can't swap among devices and can't even buy next door if you run out of rechargeables, and even with a charger it takes at least 3x times as long then recharging a set of AAs that stores the same power.

And lets not talk about the fights over power outlets on a safari that all those chargers cause.


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## ronderick (May 11, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> Agreed. I like the fact that both my 5DII and my 7D use the same battery, and it would be great if that battery would power a flash, too. But it's only viable IF they keep the same battery through many product updates. I really can't wait for induction charging to become a practical reality - one charging pad that you just set your devices or batteries on to charge. As it is, I've got about 8 different chargers just for camera/video gear...



Yeah, I think that's a smart move on the part of Canon to use the same type of batteries for the two cameras. Again, with the planned Camera cross media dock somewhere down the line, it would be nice to eliminate the need for keep different kinds of chargers handy (at least for one's home).

What's even better - a portable version of the charging dock (OK, I might be getting a bit into the sci-fi realm here...)


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## awinphoto (May 11, 2011)

Lawliet said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > I think if they find ways to simplify and unite consumables such as batteries it would be more convenient in the long run and better in every regard.
> ...



If what you say is correct and the current batteries and technology couldn't use the current batch of batteries for flashes due to power, I think it would be Canon's best interest to produce a battery that could be cross platform compatible or at least create a rechargeable battery that could be charged in the current canon chargers. A large high capacity and high voltage battery can be created, if metz can, canon can. There are a lot of things I would LOVE to have on flashed but after moving from metz to canon, the AA thing has slowly began to irk me. =) Just a personal quirk


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## Stuart (May 11, 2011)

t.linn said:


> I'm a little surprised by the moderate levels of enthusiam for this potential breakthrough in flash photography. The idea of being able to control flashes remotely without spending hundreds of dollars in additional gear *per flash* plus the loss of high speed sync, etc., is HUGE for me. People have been asking for this forever. I'm surprised it has taken so long for someone to do it.
> 
> This rumor may be CR2 but remember that it is undisputed that Canon filed a patent last year for wireless flash control using ZigBee. (It was mentioned on this site.) I don't think there's any reason to think that the protocol will be anything other than this.
> 
> I can't' wait!!!



+1 this is huge!
If canon start allowing Wireless comms in thier equipment, then is can get an IP address, be remote controlled, be wireless tethered, maybe even shoot in 3D with 2 camera's acting totether.


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## anthony11 (May 11, 2011)

Stuart said:


> are multiband radio's like you get in mobile phones to work in many locations - or mayebe even plug-in radio card's for different regions.


Other products manage to do the former, but Canon doesn't have much of a history of doing the right thing for the consumer.

The big question for me is why, in 2011, is optical triggering still the norm? It seems like a technology from the 20's or something.


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## bvukich (May 11, 2011)

If it does use ZigBee, or any other open RF communications standard, it will be a hackers playground; which means the potential for all kinds of cool 3rd party and homebrew toys.

The only problem I see with ZigBee is there are three different frequency bands specified. 2.4 GHz worldwide, 915 MHz Americas and 868 MHz Europe. It would probably make sense to break spec and just use 2.4GHz in all regulatory domains, despite the advantages of the lower frequencies available in US/EU.


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## DJL329 (May 12, 2011)

Justin said:


> Really! Canon needs to deliver on what they promised us in the last nine months. Super tele refresh. And the fisheye zoom. And don't forget the 200-400 f/4 1.4x!!
> 
> Bodies can't come soon enough for many of us, but we'll just have to wait.
> 
> Other new lenses can't come soon enough, but I have a hunch I'll be on this site repeating myself for the next few years on the last two especially (24-70 2.8 IS, 14-24 2.8, 85 1.4 IS).



Canon stated the 200-400mm f/4 w/1.4x was a _prototype_, meaning it is *not* something about to be released. As for the _announced_ lenses, they are delayed (like *all* Canon and Nikon products made in Japan), because of the consequences of the quake and tsunami.


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## Lawliet (May 12, 2011)

awinphoto said:


> A large high capacity and high voltage battery can be created, if metz can, canon can. There are a lot of things I would LOVE to have on flashed but after moving from metz to canon, the AA thing has slowly began to irk me.



Have you ever disassembled one? Its a bunch of AAs soldered together to prevent easy replacement or proper cell maintainance. Guess why my large Metz flashes got connectors for RC racing packs - approximatly three times the endurance, easier management and much faster charging at a fraction of the costs.
The joys and benefits of proprietary batteries.  

And for the LP-E6 and its counterparts- paying 10 times the price of the actual cells only to loose the ability to use them across brands and even devices...sounds like a bad deal to me.


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## awinphoto (May 12, 2011)

Lawliet said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > A large high capacity and high voltage battery can be created, if metz can, canon can. There are a lot of things I would LOVE to have on flashed but after moving from metz to canon, the AA thing has slowly began to irk me.
> ...



No, i never had the inclination to disassemble a rechargeable battery, I always left that to people who knows what the heck they are doing. If you say they are AA's soldered together, I would have to take you word, however with that said... In the days of film cameras, they ALL had batteries that were consumable... They weren't AA, they were a proprietary camera battery (unless you had the AA power booster)... Those batteries, while not as easy to find as AA's, were common place, but there was enough grumbling with those that one of the big selling points of the early digital cameras, the D30, D60, 10D... included rechargeable batteries... they started selling like hot cakes... (that and the lure of digital and no film)... 

Flashes really haven't evolved too much from the film days... The TTL technology advanced, slightly, and the power was increased by a handful of meters, woo hoo... I just hope that along with the evolution and the next advancements in flash technology, with the addition of other features and so forth, that this is one of them. If it is, I, personally, would trade my flashes so i can buy the new flashes in a heartbeat.


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## unfocused (May 13, 2011)

> Flashes really haven't evolved too much from the film days



I guess that depends on your age and perspective. In my time I've seen flashes evolve much more than cameras.

I'm not discounting the changes that digital cameras have brought, but the basics of how it all works haven't changed that much. We're recording on memory cards instead of film and we're getting instant feedback and more control, but from my perspective, that all pales in comparison to what I can do with strobes today. 

Try shooting any event with a potato masher strobe when you have to estimate distances, calculate a guide number, wait forever for recycle time, keep from accidentally moving the shutter speed dial above 1/60th of a second, hope that the batteries last at least through the first quarter of the event and pray that the worthless little cord connecting the camera to the strobe is still working an hour after you've checked it out and packed up for the assignment (hint: it probably won't be working). Forget about syncing more than one unit or doing anything else remotely creative with a strobe, unless you spend hundreds or even thousands more on slaves, flash meters, Polaroid backs, etc. etc. And, of course, you really won't know if it all worked until it's too late, when you develop the film.

I can't believe how fantastic today's strobes are. The fact that for less than the cost of a moderately priced "L" lens, I can buy a setup that lets me trigger multiple strobes and, through the camera, adjust the output levels, balance ambient light with the strobes and never once have to guess how many feet or meters I am from the subject makes me a very happy camper.


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