# The Canon EOS R5 will begin shipping before the Summer Olympics



## Canon Rumors Guy (Feb 20, 2020)

> I have been reporting for quite some time now that the Canon EOS R5 would begin shipping in July, and it looks like other media outlets are starting to say the same thing.
> Nikkan Kogyo Shimbun from *Newswitch*(Google Translated), a Japanese publication is also saying that the Canon EOS R5 will begin shipping prior to the summer Olympic games in Tokyo, which begin on July 24, 2020.
> While the Canon EOS R5 will be more than capable of professional use, it’s definitely not the “professional” EOS R mirrorless camera. We expect to see the Canon EOS R1 sometime in 2021, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see some kind of a development announcement in Q4 if 2020,



Continue reading...


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## Adelino (Feb 20, 2020)

The sooner it comes out the sooner I can buy a refurbished one. Or maybe the 6 will be something for me.


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## Gloads (Feb 20, 2020)

What is Canon's typical ship date after formal announcement, or if the announcement is expected March 14th, when would you expect shipment? Early July seems far too close to the Olympics, I would expect some ramp time first.


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## joestopper (Feb 20, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



No real news for R5: July was told before and that shipping is before Olympics was a given ...
Anyway, where is the news of the complete RF lens line-up for 2020?
Will we see a 24 f/1.2 and the 14-28 f/2 ?


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## amorse (Feb 20, 2020)

Interesting to see how it performs at the olympics - that will be very telling as to what Canon's best mirrorless autofocus systems can achieve.


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## Gloads (Feb 20, 2020)

Thinking about it, the one place this camera makes no sense is the Olympics. Unless there is somehow no lag in the EVF, it will not work well for sports. Unless it can somehow focus while recording 8k video, it will not work well for sports. For ceremonies, or other more static situations it should be great, but for most of the action, not so much.

Does anyone know of pro sports shooters who use MILC bodies for action?


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## Pape (Feb 20, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Thinking about it, the one place this camera makes no sense is the Olympics. Unless there is somehow no lag in the EVF, it will not work well for sports. Unless it can somehow focus while recording 8k video, it will not work well for sports. For ceremonies, or other more static situations it should be great, but for most of the action, not so much.
> 
> Does anyone know of pro sports shooters who use MILC bodies for action?


I am sure it wouldnt named 5 serie camera if there is lag on EVF


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## bbasiaga (Feb 20, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Thinking about it, the one place this camera makes no sense is the Olympics. Unless there is somehow no lag in the EVF, it will not work well for sports. Unless it can somehow focus while recording 8k video, it will not work well for sports. For ceremonies, or other more static situations it should be great, but for most of the action, not so much.
> 
> Does anyone know of pro sports shooters who use MILC bodies for action?



That Fro-knows-photo guy just did a video with the 1DxMkIII where he used some kind of weird adapter that allows the LCD on the back of the camera to be used with an eye cup. That worked out pretty stellar for him. It simulated mirrorless performance as he just locked the shutter out of the way and used live view to shoot.

-Brian


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## Drcampbellicu (Feb 20, 2020)

mirroless can work very well for birding and wildlife and is taking over that area from dslrs in terms of new users.

I don’t know about broadcast sports and such at all.no one knows what to make of the 8k announcement yet





Gloads said:


> Thinking about it, the one place this camera makes no sense is the Olympics. Unless there is somehow no lag in the EVF, it will not work well for sports. Unless it can somehow focus while recording 8k video, it will not work well for sports. For ceremonies, or other more static situations it should be great, but for most of the action, not so much.
> 
> Does anyone know of pro sports shooters who use MILC bodies for action?


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## Drcampbellicu (Feb 20, 2020)

Any sense as to how the 2 new bodies are being positioned?
Is the R5 a jack of all trades or more sports oriented. I cant tell which body I should be saving for?

I am a wildlife shooter and am overduefor a new body



Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


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## Cee Log (Feb 20, 2020)

> While the Canon EOS R5 will be more than capable of professional use, it’s definitely not the “professional” EOS R mirrorless camera.



Might not be 1DX specs but Canon is officially calling R5 "A professional full frame mirrorless flagship camera".

https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-r5/


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## Architect1776 (Feb 20, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



The sooner it comes out the sooner the bugs get worked out from the first adopters.


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## Architect1776 (Feb 20, 2020)

Cee Log said:


> Might not be 1DX specs but Canon is officially calling R5 "A professional full frame mirrorless flagship camera".
> 
> https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-r5/



The 5D series were also considered professional.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 20, 2020)

Hmmm, Canon still thinking they will ship this in July? Maybe, but I'm dubious based on what's going on right now.  I'll just leave this here...


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## TMACIOSZEK (Feb 20, 2020)

Due to ship in July... pre-order in May?


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## Danglin52 (Feb 20, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



When you say "professional" are you referencing a 1dx III replacement/mirrorless clone? The R5 spec you leaked looks like it would equal/surpass the 5dIV - which is considered a "professional" camera for most other uses than wildlife/sports. Please clarify.


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## Ozarker (Feb 20, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Thinking about it, the one place this camera makes no sense is the Olympics. Unless there is somehow no lag in the EVF, it will not work well for sports. Unless it can somehow focus while recording 8k video, it will not work well for sports. For ceremonies, or other more static situations it should be great, but for most of the action, not so much.
> 
> Does anyone know of pro sports shooters who use MILC bodies for action?


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 20, 2020)

You know for all the people questioning how smooth the viewfinder will be on the R5... If it's going to be capable of 20fps, even if the viewfinder stutters at 20fps, that's almost an acceptible video framerate. So just based on the fact that we know the camera will do 20fps means that the viewfinder will not be that jerky. I suspect it will be worlds better than the EOS R. If this processor can do 8K video, I suspect it can also keep the viewfinder feed pretty smooth during shooting.


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## Danglin52 (Feb 20, 2020)

I leave for Namibia mid - August and would really, really like to have the R5 in the bag with my 1dx II. I plan to pre-order the R5, battery grip, RF 24-105 f4 L IS, RF 100-500 f4.5-7.1 L IS, but will probably stick with my 200-400 f4 L IS w/1.4x for Namibia since it mounts on either camera body. If the 100-500 is basically the same size/weight of the current 100-400 II, I may be able to squeeze it in the bag. I sold my 5dIV at the end of 2019 anticipating a mirrorless equivalent (R5) by April or May 2020. I really don't want to rent a 5dIV for the trip, but I do need time to test and make sure the R system working properly.


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## t.linn (Feb 20, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Does anyone know of pro sports shooters who use MILC bodies for action?



There are more than a few pro shooters using the A9 II.


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## edoorn (Feb 20, 2020)

Well, Canon itself in the development announcement mentioned wildlife and sports shooters... so I guess at least Canon themselves consider it suitable for this


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## Danglin52 (Feb 20, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Hmmm, Canon still thinking they will ship this in July? Maybe, but I'm dubious based on what's going on right now.  I'll just leave this here...
> 
> View attachment 188843



I like the graphic. This camera is probably be assembled in Japan. They may use parts from China, but those would probably have already been sourced in so they could begin building inventory. I think it is only going to be an issue if reported cases in Japan continue to climb over those involved in the cruise ship.


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## David_E (Feb 20, 2020)

Gloads said:


> _Thinking about it, the one place this camera makes no sense is the Olympics._


Thinking about it, it makes no sense at all for you to judge the suitability of the R5 for any purpose. You haven’t used one, haven’t seen one, and don’t even have complete specs.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 20, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I like the graphic. This camera is probably be assembled in Japan. They may use parts from China, but those would probably have already been sourced in so they could begin building inventory. I think it is only going to be an issue if reported cases in Japan continue to climb over those involved in the cruise ship.


I would not be so sure. As I posted elsewhere, Sony is rumored to be re-working the designs of some of their upcoming cameras due to parts shortages. I would be shocked if Canon's supply chain isn't also somewhat affected. Assembled in Japan, sure, but plenty of parts from China in there I'm sure.

I'm sure Canon is still hoping to put this out for July, but I'd be surprised to see any official announcement of a release date until the uncertainty around this virus subsides.


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## Trey T (Feb 20, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> When you say "professional" are you referencing a 1dx III replacement/mirrorless clone? The R5 spec you leaked looks like it would equal/surpass the 5dIV - which is considered a "professional" camera for most other uses than wildlife/sports. Please clarify.


Since the 5Dii and 7D era, those were considered professional/consumer (ie prosumer) level, and the 1D is strictly professional level product segment. How Canon structure their product, calling it prosumer or pro, can be different than how we perceive it. So the R5 should be called as prosumer because it's using the same battery power as the 5D w/ only two li-ion cells.


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## Ozarker (Feb 20, 2020)

Trey T said:


> So the R5 should be called as prosumer because it's using the same battery power as the 5D w/ only two li-ion cells.


What?????


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## Gloads (Feb 20, 2020)

I think the R5 will need an add-on vertical grip with large battery if it will be widely adopted for professional use. Beyond the EVF, my only other concern is battery life. Looking at Sony they appear to have a vertical grip with larger batteries. There also appears to be a number of pro sports shooters using them, which I found interesting. One even said they use mirrorless for sports, but would bring a DSLR for the Olympics.

Looking at how things have evolved since I left the profession twelve years ago, sports shooters are more dependent on AF now and appear to shoot more images per sequence and pick out the keepers. AF was not very good a decade ago, so we mostly pre-focused and waited for the subject to come in to focus to shoot (unless there was lots of action, then AF-ON and hope). That probably would not work well with an EVF, but if AF is great, and you get 20FPS in focus, maybe that is how an MILC works for sports. 

That said, even with rare bursts, reviewing 9000 shots a weekend, and editing and posting 2000-3000 was brutal. I can't imagine double the FPS and using bursts as the norm being manageable without an assistant.


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## mpmark (Feb 20, 2020)

Cee Log said:


> Might not be 1DX specs but Canon is officially calling R5 "A professional full frame mirrorless flagship camera".
> 
> https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-r5/



good catch, flag ship would mean 6k plus price and their answer for top spot on the mirrorless market. And a replacement for the 1d "flagship DSLR line.


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## Quackator (Feb 20, 2020)

Canon is definitely producing hardware full throttle now to quench every pre-order 
demand, because that will be at suggested retail price without negotiation.

They communicated that they want to achieve 70% of all mirrorless during the 
Olympics to be Canon, announcing the biggest ever CPS war room in the history
of sporting events.

The 1D-X MkIII can also be expected to pass the 50% DSLR share on location in Tokyo.

Unless Corona spoils the show, the Olympics will be a Canon march of triumph.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 20, 2020)

mpmark said:


> good catch, flag ship would mean 6k plus price and their answer for top spot on the mirrorless market. And a replacement for the 1d "flagship DSLR line.


I think you're reading way too deep into marketing jargon. They called it the R5 to convey exactly where they expect to place it in the market. Why else would they jump right from EOS R to R5?

Also, the R5 does not have the vertical grip, large battery to go along with that, or the additional buttons on the front of the camera they reserve for their 1D level cameras. The R5 is meant as a 5D level camera, there's no question.


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## njohnson (Feb 20, 2020)

Well if it's not "professional" then we should get an equally not professional price.


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## y2kunals (Feb 20, 2020)

bbasiaga said:


> That Fro-knows-photo guy just did a video with the 1DxMkIII where he used some kind of weird adapter that allows the LCD on the back of the camera to be used with an eye cup. That worked out pretty stellar for him. It simulated mirrorless performance as he just locked the shutter out of the way and used live view to shoot.
> 
> -Brian



Not sure how a lot of people would feel about lifting the camera higher to bring the LCD up to the correct height. It could work for a little bit, but in the long run of some shoots it might be tiring. That's def a band-aid.


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## Gloads (Feb 20, 2020)

David_E said:


> Thinking about it, it makes no sense at all for you to judge the suitability of the R5 for any purpose. You haven’t used one, haven’t seen one, and don’t even have complete specs.


If you had read the entire post you might have seen that I qualified my opinion with "Unless there is somehow no lag in the EVF". And it was just that, an opinion about this upcoming camera, not an opinion and rude response about another persons opinion. Sad to see that even though we are interested in the new camera, and came her to speculate about it as we have few specs, people have to attack others. 

Having done photography for 50 years, and a good chunk of that as a widely published professional sports photographer, if this body has an EVF like the EOS R, it will be quite limited for sports, IMO.


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## Danglin52 (Feb 20, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> I would not be so sure. As I posted elsewhere, Sony is rumored to be re-working the designs of some of their upcoming cameras due to parts shortages. I would be shocked if Canon's supply chain isn't also somewhat affected. Assembled in Japan, sure, but plenty of parts from China in there I'm sure.
> 
> I'm sure Canon is still hoping to put this out for July, but I'd be surprised to see any official announcement of a release date until the uncertainty around this virus subsides.



I think I acknowledged that it could be an issue, but if they are shipping in July they have probably started building units for the warehouse. This would be a complex supply chain and they would have been building up components inventories for the last few months in preparation to build even they have not started assembly yet. Depending on the quantity they have built, it could be in extremely limited supply after the pre-orders. I thought Sony's issues was for specialized memory for stacked sensors. In any case, products scheduled for delivery late in the year would be more impacted by the issue in China that products with a mid -year launch already int he manufacturing chain. 

We will see, you may be right.


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## peters (Feb 20, 2020)

With 20fps it feels VERY professional, even for sport guys, I must say


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## bbasiaga (Feb 20, 2020)

y2kunals said:


> Not sure how a lot of people would feel about lifting the camera higher to bring the LCD up to the correct height. It could work for a little bit, but in the long run of some shoots it might be tiring. That's def a band-aid.


Totally a band aid. But that camera also has 20fps like the R5 and in that mode used the same AF mechanism (meaning sensor based, not the separate AF point detector) as a mirrorless would - and the technology performed. It was an interesting review in that it showed there are actually some advantages to what mirrorless could bring to sporting photographers. A limited proof of concept, and a good look at what could be when the EVF technology limits lag. 

I want an R5. The wife does not want me to spend the money. I have to watch a lot of stuff to build my case. 

-Brian


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## edoorn (Feb 20, 2020)

Canon itself call it a professional camera: https://www.canon-europe.com/cameras/eos-r5/


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## jam05 (Feb 20, 2020)

The Canon 5Dmk3 mk4 has always been the professionals workhorse camera despite what people think. Sure the 1DxIII is seen in sporting venues however most of the time during the Olympic Games they are not on the street as many 5Dmk3 and mk4 are in the numbers. The Olympics games are a long event. The 5Dmk5 mirrorless would be the secondary device of choice in between events


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## Cee Log (Feb 20, 2020)

mpmark said:


> good catch, flag ship would mean 6k plus price and their answer for top spot on the mirrorless market. And a replacement for the 1d "flagship DSLR line.



i believe the R5 will sit in between the 5D & 1D, but in any case it is parallel to the DSLR line.

with +45MP, IBIS, 8K.. R5 is definitely way ahead the 5D series and deserves its "flagship mirrorless" status but won't exceed the 1D in FPS & AF.

personally, i don't think Canon will give a mirrorless 1D before a couple of years.

1DX3 is their flagship sports/action camera with RAW video support, and will remain that for its life cycle (2-3 years).


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## jam05 (Feb 20, 2020)

The 5D has always been the professionals workhorse do it all, take it anywhere camera. Not the 1dx. Its simply not the take everywhere camera.


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## mpmark (Feb 20, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> I think you're reading way too deep into marketing jargon. They called it the R5 to convey exactly where they expect to place it in the market. Why else would they jump right from EOS R to R5?
> 
> Also, the R5 does not have the vertical grip, large battery to go along with that, or the additional buttons on the front of the camera they reserve for their 1D level cameras. The R5 is meant as a 5D level camera, there's no question.



I agree partly, yes I still think they will come out with a 1D type full grip camera but this for me is NOT a 5D replacement, its entirely new.

If you look at the 5D line it has very incremental steps, this camera is leaps ahead of the current 5D. I have owned all the 5D line from the beginning.
Its going from,
7fps to 12/20fps
30mp to 45mp (rumored)

this is a huge jump and I'm all for it but its not a 5D replacement, its way above that in my opinion


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 20, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I think I acknowledged that it could be an issue, but if they are shipping in July they have probably started building units for the warehouse. This would be a complex supply chain and they would have been building up components inventories for the last few months in preparation to build even they have not started assembly yet. Depending on the quantity they have built, it could be in extremely limited supply after the pre-orders. I thought Sony's issues was for specialized memory for stacked sensors. In any case, products scheduled for delivery late in the year would be more impacted by the issue in China that products with a mid -year launch already int he manufacturing chain.
> 
> We will see, you may be right.


I think you're looking at this with some seriously rose tinted glasses. I find it hard to believe that Canon has very much stock built up for a camera that's still several months from release. Also generally the way stuff gets manufactured now with just in time component deliveries to the plant, they don't "build up" a stock of components before something gets made. It's a financial liability to set on a bunch of expensive parts months before you actually build a product. Parts are normally delivered to the factory very shortly before they're actually used to build a camera.

I also don't think Canon will release the camera until they have a good stock of them built up. They aren't going to release the camera with only a very limited supply to sell to people. As soon as the camera is released, people will be looking towards how many Canon has been able to sell to judge if the camera is a success or not. And not having enough stock on hand is a good way for Canon to look very bad from several angles, ie they can't build cameras quickly enough, also the impression that no one is buying their new camera, and finally unhappy customers waiting forever on their preorder. Releasing a camera before you have sufficient stock built up is a recipe for disaster.


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## jam05 (Feb 20, 2020)

t.linn said:


> There are more than a few pro shooters using the A9 II.


Pro shooters don't stay at the venue for every single prelim, round and finals. Some shoot everything, some shoot finals. A lot going on to be lugging a 1dxmkIII at the venue an around town too.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 20, 2020)

mpmark said:


> I agree partly, yes I still think they will come out with a 1D type full grip camera but this for me is NOT a 5D replacement, its entirely new.
> 
> If you look at the 5D line it has very incremental steps, this camera is leaps ahead of the current 5D. I have owned all the 5D line from the beginning.
> Its going from,
> ...


Canon has been able to take incremental steps in the past due to the (relative) lack of competition. The game has changed, both because cameras are beginning to function fundamentally different than they used to (mirrorless), and Canon never had Sony to compete against when DSLRs ruled.

Canon had no choice but to step up their game on this camera, but that doesn't mean they don't still intend this as a 5D level camera (again, it's called the R5!)


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## jam05 (Feb 20, 2020)

mpmark said:


> I agree partly, yes I still think they will come out with a 1D type full grip camera but this for me is NOT a 5D replacement, its entirely new.
> 
> If you look at the 5D line it has very incremental steps, this camera is leaps ahead of the current 5D. I have owned all the 5D line from the beginning.
> Its going from,
> ...


Its a huge jump because technology has changed. The write speed has gone to CFexpress 2. Although I believe this will be CFexpress 1 @ 1gb per ch write speed


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## Architect1776 (Feb 20, 2020)

mpmark said:


> I agree partly, yes I still think they will come out with a 1D type full grip camera but this for me is NOT a 5D replacement, its entirely new.
> 
> If you look at the 5D line it has very incremental steps, this camera is leaps ahead of the current 5D. I have owned all the 5D line from the beginning.
> Its going from,
> ...



The entire R concept is meant to be a huge leap ahead.
Canon is flexing design muscle again.
The 5 equates with the 5D or R5 in that it is not a 1 series.
It is a level we all understand.
Who knows the 1 series might make your popcorn, do post processing and kiss your wife goodnight for you.  
In other words it might just totally blow the doors off the competition as the EF 1 series did for decades.


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## jam05 (Feb 20, 2020)

edoorn said:


> Well, Canon itself in the development announcement mentioned wildlife and sports shooters... so I guess at least Canon themselves consider it suitable for this


Precisely. It will sit exactly where the 5D sits. Just below the 1DxIII. Only its mirrorless. Most likely will never be a 5Dmk V.


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## PageWorks Studios (Feb 20, 2020)

mpmark said:


> good catch, flag ship would mean 6k plus price and their answer for top spot on the mirrorless market. And a replacement for the 1d "flagship DSLR line.


.... flagship "mirrorless" - that is, the top of their line mirrorless - not flagship for all of Canon ?


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## jam05 (Feb 20, 2020)

What's in the bag? 1dxlll + 5DR5


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## joestopper (Feb 20, 2020)

Gloads said:


> I think the R5 will need an add-on vertical grip with large battery if it will be widely adopted for professional use. Beyond the EVF, my only other concern is battery life. Looking at Sony they appear to have a vertical grip with larger batteries. There also appears to be a number of pro sports shooters using them, which I found interesting. One even said they use mirrorless for sports, but would bring a DSLR for the Olympics.
> 
> Looking at how things have evolved since I left the profession twelve years ago, sports shooters are more dependent on AF now and appear to shoot more images per sequence and pick out the keepers. AF was not very good a decade ago, so we mostly pre-focused and waited for the subject to come in to focus to shoot (unless there was lots of action, then AF-ON and hope). That probably would not work well with an EVF, but if AF is great, and you get 20FPS in focus, maybe that is how an MILC works for sports.
> 
> That said, even with rare bursts, reviewing 9000 shots a weekend, and editing and posting 2000-3000 was brutal. I can't imagine double the FPS and using bursts as the norm being manageable without an assistant.



These are excellent points.
... how to find THE shot in the thousands taken. Looks, these super high 20FPS come at a price ...


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## MadScotsman (Feb 20, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Anyway, where is the news of the complete RF lens line-up for 2020?



I’m delaying a lot of important buying decisions until I see this exact thing. 

And wearing out the refresh icon.

It’s the news I’m waiting on the most.


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## joestopper (Feb 20, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> The entire R concept is meant to be a huge leap ahead.
> Canon is flexing design muscle again.
> The 5 equates with the 5D or R5 in that it is not a 1 series.
> It is a level we all understand.
> ...



Here is an example what a future R1 could provide:
- built-in AI that automatically selects for you 'the best' shots of these thousands shots taken in 20FPS bursts ...
I think the hardware is so advanced at this point such that the software needs to improve to catch up with what hardware is capable of ...


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## degos (Feb 20, 2020)

edoorn said:


> Well, Canon itself in the development announcement mentioned wildlife and sports shooters... so I guess at least Canon themselves consider it suitable for this



They also mentioned wildlife photographers as providing input to the 1DX3 and we saw how that turned out...


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## joestopper (Feb 20, 2020)

MadScotsman said:


> I’m delaying a lot of important buying decisions until I see this exact thing.
> 
> And wearing out the refresh icon.
> 
> It’s the news I’m waiting on the most.



Yes, that is my problem, too.
I badly need a wide angle zoom. While I could buy the RF 15-35, I am hoping for a RF 14-28 f/2.


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## SecureGSM (Feb 20, 2020)

Gloads said:


> If you had read the entire post you might have seen that I qualified my opinion with "Unless there is somehow no lag in the EVF". And it was just that, an opinion about this upcoming camera, not an opinion and rude response about another persons opinion. Sad to see that even though we are interested in the new camera, and came her to speculate about it as we have few specs, people have to attack others.
> 
> Having done photography for 50 years, and a good chunk of that as a widely published professional sports photographer, if this body has an EVF like the EOS R, it will be quite limited for sports, IMO.


EOS R EVF was slow (latent) due to sensor readout speed limitations. R5 sensor readout is at least 3 times better, therefore we can expect considerably less EVF latency. A 50ms latency levels would be fairly manageable for sports in my POV. What’s the current A9II EVF latency like? Do we know?


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## Michael Clark (Feb 20, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Thinking about it, the one place this camera makes no sense is the Olympics. Unless there is somehow no lag in the EVF, it will not work well for sports. Unless it can somehow focus while recording 8k video, it will not work well for sports. For ceremonies, or other more static situations it should be great, but for most of the action, not so much.
> 
> Does anyone know of pro sports shooters who use MILC bodies for action?



There are a lot of uses for second/third bodies with wider lenses at major sporting events such as the Olympics. Not every photo filed will be shot with a Super Telephoto of an athlete moving fast. There will be a lot of reaction shots after the action, pensive athletes getting in their "zone" before the action, fans in the stands, etc. It's a spectacle that goes far beyond the action.


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## Trey T (Feb 20, 2020)

Trey T said:


> Since the 5Dii and 7D era, those were considered professional/consumer (ie prosumer) level, and the 1D is strictly professional level product segment. How Canon structure their product, calling it prosumer or pro, can be different than how we perceive it. So the R5 should be called as prosumer because it's using the same battery power as the 5D w/ only two li-ion cells.





CanonFanBoy said:


> What?????


Which would you pick:

1. a bada** pro photog with a prosumer camera; or
2. a lifetime noob photog w/ a pro camera?

The point is, does it really matter what Canon classified the camera as?!? I bet you got some bada** gears.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 20, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Thinking about it, the one place this camera makes no sense is the Olympics. Unless there is somehow no lag in the EVF, it will not work well for sports. Unless it can somehow focus while recording 8k video, it will not work well for sports. For ceremonies, or other more static situations it should be great, but for most of the action, not so much.
> 
> Does anyone know of pro sports shooters who use MILC bodies for action?



Sure, there are a few. Most of them shoot golf and tennis regularly and the silent shutter of the α9/α9II helps a lot in those situations. But they are still a small minority of the total number of shooters at most major sporting events.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 20, 2020)

bbasiaga said:


> That Fro-knows-photo guy just did a video with the 1DxMkIII where he used some kind of weird adapter that allows the LCD on the back of the camera to be used with an eye cup. That worked out pretty stellar for him. It simulated mirrorless performance as he just locked the shutter out of the way and used live view to shoot.
> 
> -Brian



It's just a "loupe", the rest of the contraption was to hold it on without gluing it to what was most likely a review loaner from Canon.


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## Sharlin (Feb 20, 2020)

degos said:


> They also mentioned wildlife photographers as providing input to the 1DX3 and we saw how that turned out...



Yes, turns out that the 1DX3 is the best wildlife camera on the planet. Your point?


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 20, 2020)

mpmark said:


> I agree partly, yes I still think they will come out with a 1D type full grip camera but this for me is NOT a 5D replacement, its entirely new.
> 
> If you look at the 5D line it has very incremental steps, this camera is leaps ahead of the current 5D. I have owned all the 5D line from the beginning.
> Its going from,
> ...


It’s a 5D replacement that 5D IV should have been  it is2020. Tech has advanced, market has evolved and Canon have embraced competition (finally)


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 20, 2020)

t.linn said:


> There are more than a few pro shooters using the A9 II.



Compared to the old days, say, twenty years ago, there are only a "few" pro shooters doing sports full time left.


----------



## Trey T (Feb 20, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> The entire *R concept is meant to be a huge leap ahead.*
> Canon is flexing design muscle again.
> The 5 equates with the 5D or R5 in that it is not a 1 series.
> It is a level we all understand.
> ...


Tiny bit correction: The concept of pro-level mirrorless was not born in 2018 w/ the EOS R, it started w/ the 7D era (approx 2012) w/ the DPAF in Liveview. Like many are uttering, I wish the R5 will make the 1DXiii obsolete in July 2020. The R5 should be a significant incremental improvement to the 5D but w/o the mirror box.


----------



## sanj (Feb 20, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Thinking about it, the one place this camera makes no sense is the Olympics. Unless there is somehow no lag in the EVF, it will not work well for sports. Unless it can somehow focus while recording 8k video, it will not work well for sports. For ceremonies, or other more static situations it should be great, but for most of the action, not so much.
> 
> Does anyone know of pro sports shooters who use MILC bodies for action?


Why no sense for Olympics?? Strange comment!


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 20, 2020)

David_E said:


> Thinking about it, it makes no sense at all for you to judge the suitability of the R5 for any purpose. You haven’t used one, haven’t seen one, and don’t even have complete specs.



I'm going to go waaaay out on a limb here and say he hasn't shot the Olympics with _anything else_, either.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 20, 2020)

Trey T said:


> Since the 5Dii and 7D era, those were considered professional/consumer (ie prosumer) level, and the 1D is strictly professional level product segment. How Canon structure their product, calling it prosumer or pro, can be different than how we perceive it. So the R5 should be called as prosumer because it's using the same battery power as the 5D w/ only two li-ion cells.



Canon has called the five series "professional" in some world regions while not calling it "professional" in other world regions. That kind of thing is all up to the marketing departments in each subsidiary.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 20, 2020)

Cee Log said:


> Might not be 1DX specs but Canon is officially calling R5 "A professional full frame mirrorless flagship camera".
> 
> https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-r5/



That raises tons of questions. Will R1 also be a flagship camera? Can there be two flagships? Or R5 will stop being a flagship when they release R1?
Also they say subscribe and "Be the first to receive the latest updates on the EOS R5 and the new RF Lenses". Should I subscribe to official Canon or stay here on CanonRumors??


----------



## dwarven (Feb 20, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Thinking about it, the one place this camera makes no sense is the Olympics. Unless there is somehow no lag in the EVF, it will not work well for sports. Unless it can somehow focus while recording 8k video, it will not work well for sports. For ceremonies, or other more static situations it should be great, but for most of the action, not so much.
> 
> Does anyone know of pro sports shooters who use MILC bodies for action?



I'm not a pro sports shooter, but the R already works incredibly well for birbs. AF is faster and better than any other DSLR I've used. If they reduce the lag in the R5's EVF, then I'll use it for action over a DSLR every single time.


----------



## Danglin52 (Feb 20, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> I think you're looking at this with some seriously rose tinted glasses. I find it hard to believe that Canon has very much stock built up for a camera that's still several months from release. Also generally the way stuff gets manufactured now with just in time component deliveries to the plant, they don't "build up" a stock of components before something gets made. It's a financial liability to set on a bunch of expensive parts months before you actually build a product. Parts are normally delivered to the factory very shortly before they're actually used to build a camera.
> 
> I also don't think Canon will release the camera until they have a good stock of them built up. They aren't going to release the camera with only a very limited supply to sell to people. As soon as the camera is released, people will be looking towards how many Canon has been able to sell to judge if the camera is a success or not. And not having enough stock on hand is a good way for Canon to look very bad from several angles, ie they can't build cameras quickly enough, also the impression that no one is buying their new camera, and finally unhappy customers waiting forever on their preorder. Releasing a camera before you have sufficient stock built up is a recipe for disaster.



The argument you just gave about having sufficient stock on hand is exactly why they will begin building inventory several months before a worldwide rollout. JIT is extremely important in todays manufacturing world, but you are looking through rose colored glasses if you think that type of control/ process is in place on day 1 of a launch. You usually start out with a build of of initial stock, followed by ordinary manufacturing run rate and a refinement of ordering and delivery process. It is expensive to hold components inventory, but it is even more expensive to disrupt a production line because of lack of components. Counting on a JIT delivery of components in with a new production line for an initial launch would be a disaster if even one component was not available for assembly. I had oversight of a sensor fab that produced sensors for several camera brands you would recognize (not Canon) that required their initial production order of sensors 1 - 2 quarters (3-6 months) before their launch. I can't say this is how Canon handles their launches, but it is not unusual in the industry. 

And yes, I do have rose colored glasses on because I want this camera in my hands prior to August.


----------



## CanoKnight (Feb 20, 2020)

I was initially curious when I heard about the R5. Surely Canon weren't giving up their old ways of selling overpriced outdated technology, were they ? I will reserve final judgment until the product hits the shelves, but knowing Canon I am going to make a prediction. The 8k gimmick, much like their high megapixel still cameras gimmick, will be about masking their lousy codec. The video quality will not be up to par with their cinemas EOS line which itself is below industry par (Panasonic). You will get a camera that looks good on paper but overall unsatisfying. We will see.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 20, 2020)

jam05 said:


> The 5D has always been the professionals workhorse do it all, take it anywhere camera. Not the 1dx. Its simply not the take everywhere camera.



Not always. Far from it.

Until the 5D Mark III and 1D X introductions in 2012, the 1-Series was the undisputed king of Canon's lines. 

The original 5D was more like the original 6D - a budget FF camera with only bare bones features. It wasn't quite a FF "Rebel", but other than the FF sensor it was a lot more like the Rebels than the 1D series at the time.

The 5D Mark II had great IQ and introduced the "video in a DSLR" revolution, but the resolution was still ever so slightly lower than the contemporary 1Ds Mark III. The 1Ds Mark III had a pro-grade AF system, while the 5D Mark II had an AF system no better than the 30D and the Rebel XTi/400D.

The 5D series has continued to increase in resolution and taken over the role of the 1Ds bodies since that line was dropped with the introduction of the 1D X, while the 1D X series has continued the role of the 1D bodies.


----------



## brad-man (Feb 20, 2020)

edoorn said:


> Canon itself call it a professional camera: https://www.canon-europe.com/cameras/eos-r5/


Well sure. They're getting paid...


----------



## dwarven (Feb 20, 2020)

CanoKnight said:


> I was initially curious when I heard about the R5. Surely Canon weren't giving up their old ways of selling overpriced outdated technology, were they ? I will reserve final judgment until the product hits the shelves, but knowing Canon I am going to make a prediction. The 8k gimmick, much like their high megapixel still cameras gimmick, will be about masking their lousy codec. The video quality will not be up to par with their cinemas EOS line which itself is below industry par (Panasonic). You will get a camera that looks good on paper but overall unsatisfying. We will see.


Well, the opposite ended up being true with the EOS R. It looked bad on paper but ended up being pretty good to shoot with.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 20, 2020)

Trey T said:


> Since the 5Dii and 7D era, those were considered professional/consumer (ie prosumer) level,


"Prosumer" does not mean any "professional" level at all. "Prosumer" means "consumer that produces".

While 5D and 7D series (and 1D series as well) can be used by consumers, they are professional products.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 20, 2020)

Trey T said:


> Which would you pick:
> 
> 1. a bada** pro photog with a prosumer camera; or
> 2. a lifetime noob photog w/ a pro camera?
> ...



This is what I was questioning and what I quoted from you:


Trey T said:


> So the R5 should be called as prosumer because it's using the same battery power as the 5D w/ only two li-ion cells.



Try to keep up. What gear you or I have has nothing to do with your line of logic.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 20, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> I find it hard to believe that Canon has very much stock built
> up for a camera that's still several months from release.



Canon has a long track record in doing this. Back in 1985,
they built all the T90 ever sold within only three months in 
a single production run and then sold it over a five year timespan.

They subsequently perfected this, and only once miscalculated, 
when they ran out of stock for the D60 before the 10D was 
ready to ship.

The 5D Mk4 started shipping after 2.400.00 copies preproduced.

Looking at the fact that many R5 across the globe are now
in news embargoed hands of ambassadors, journalists and 
influencers, they are for sure running production at maximum warp.

And they will have enough parts sourced for that in advance.
After all, they are the only camera maker who can afford this 
without risking to implode.


----------



## BillB (Feb 20, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> That raises tons of questions. Will R1 also be a flagship camera? Can there be two flagships? Or R5 will stop being a flagship when they release R1?
> Also they say subscribe and "Be the first to receive the latest updates on the EOS R5 and the new RF Lenses". Should I subscribe to official Canon or stay here on CanonRumors??


In a corporate marketing department, many things are possible.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 20, 2020)

sanj said:


> Why no sense for Olympics?? Strange comment!


The other problem with the argument is that there are far more people buying these cameras (1DX mark III, R5, etc) that are not professionals at all. Canon having these things at the Olympics is pure marketing. I'll never figure out why people draw the conclusion that professional sports shooters are hefting the whole camera/lens industry upon their shoulders. They just are not. The R5 at the Olympics makes complete sense.


----------



## DBounce (Feb 20, 2020)

@Canon Rumors Guy has clearly not looked at the official Canon website...


> Canon Inc. announces the development of the EOS R5. A *professional* full frame *mirrorless flagship camera* offering photographers and filmmakers a host of ground-breaking new features.



Clearly this is intended to be a “professional”, “flagship” body.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 20, 2020)

degos said:


> They also mentioned wildlife photographers as providing input to the 1DX3 and we saw how that turned out...



Yeah, it's such an unmitigated disaster for wildlife and birding...


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 20, 2020)

CanoKnight said:


> I was initially curious when I heard about the R5. Surely Canon weren't giving up their old ways of selling overpriced outdated technology, were they ? I will reserve final judgment until the product hits the shelves, but knowing Canon I am going to make a prediction. The 8k gimmick, much like their high megapixel still cameras gimmick, will be about masking their lousy codec. The video quality will not be up to par with their cinemas EOS line which itself is below industry par (Panasonic). You will get a camera that looks good on paper but overall unsatisfying. We will see.



In other words, it will be like a Sony?

Well, all of the Sony fanboys *have* been yelling, "Why can't Canon make a camera like Sony makes?"


----------



## Danglin52 (Feb 20, 2020)

Qualifying bodies and point values to determine membership levels on the CPS website. Is this Canon blessing of what is "Pro"


EOS 1DX6EOS-1D X Mark II10EOS 1DX Mark III10EOS 7D1EOS 7D Mark II5EOS 6D5EOS 6D Mark II6EOS-5D Mark III4EOS-5D Mark IV7EOS 5Ds7EOS 5Ds R8EOS 5D Mark II1EOS R5EOS RP4


----------



## joestopper (Feb 20, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Canon has a long track record in doing this. Back in 1985,
> they built all the T90 ever sold within only three months in
> a single production run and then sold it over a five year timespan.
> 
> ...



I am questioning what you are claiming: 2.4 million copies pre-produced?
Can you please provide a source for this claim?
I am question it because it would be very expensive: expenses of 2.4 million x 1000 -> 2.4 billion without having any income -> this is against any business strategy and bears a huge risk ( think, if there was a production flaw then billions are lost -> could easily lead to bankruptcy).
Please provide the source of your claim.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 20, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> Qualifying bodies and point values to determine membership levels on the CPS website. Is this Canon blessing of what is "Pro"
> 
> 
> EOS 1DX6EOS-1D X Mark II10EOS 1DX Mark III10EOS 7D1EOS 7D Mark II5EOS 6D5EOS 6D Mark II6EOS-5D Mark III4EOS-5D Mark IV7EOS 5Ds7EOS 5Ds R8EOS 5D Mark II1EOS R5EOS RP4



Why would the CPS point scheme be related to being a pro product?
The point scheme is losely related to the cost and/or profit they make with a certain product.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (Feb 20, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> Yes, turns out that the 1DX3 is the best wildlife camera on the planet. Your point?



Where is that ranking coming from
The 1dx is for sports and isn’t clearly viewed as the dominant wildlife camera if there is such a thing


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 20, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> Qualifying bodies and point values to determine membership levels on the CPS website. Is this Canon blessing of what is "Pro"
> 
> 
> EOS 1DX6EOS-1D X Mark II10EOS 1DX Mark III10EOS 7D1EOS 7D Mark II5EOS 6D5EOS 6D Mark II6EOS-5D Mark III4EOS-5D Mark IV7EOS 5Ds7EOS 5Ds R8EOS 5D Mark II1EOS R5EOS RP4



No, because the number of CPS points a specific piece of equipment earns and even whether it is on the list can vary widely from one region to another.


----------



## fentiger (Feb 20, 2020)

people seem to forget what the whole point of a DX3 is all about.
that is to get images to the editors desk QUICK.
R5, 5D4, Sony, can not do that.
they are not competing with the DX3.
the DX3 is competing with the PJ who is standing next to him/her, also shooting with a DX3


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 20, 2020)

joestopper said:


> I am questioning what you are claiming: 2.4 million copies pre-produced?
> Can you please provide a source for this claim?
> I am question it because it would be very expensive: expenses of 2.4 million x 1000 -> 2.4 billion without having any income -> this is against any business strategy and bears a huge risk ( think, if there was a production flaw then billions are lost -> could easily lead to bankruptcy).
> Please provide the source of your claim.



First things first: Canon is concerned with yen, not dollars.

Second: Canon is a roughly 4 x 10^12 yen net income per year company. (That's roughly $35.7B at the current exchange rate)

Third: Canon, Inc. has assets worth over 120% of net annual income.

Fourth: Their gross profit ratio for the most recently published report was 46.4%

$2.4B in unsold inventory of a brand new product is not a cash flow problem for such a company.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 20, 2020)

joestopper said:


> I am questioning what you are claiming: 2.4 million copies pre-produced?
> Can you please provide a source for this claim?
> I am question it because it would be very expensive: expenses of 2.4 million x 1000 -> 2.4 billion without having any income -> this is against any business strategy and bears a huge risk ( think, if there was a production flaw then billions are lost -> could easily lead to bankruptcy).
> Please provide the source of your claim.


I'd like to know that as well. One thing that makes me doubt this is how quickly Canon incorporates firmware updates into the supply chain. Canon seems to be quite good at getting updated firmware into bodies, which would be very expensive, if even possible, if you had a million bodies sitting around waiting to be shipped. Manufacturing processes have changed dramatically since 1985, with very few companies keeping large stocks of inventory on hand these days. Most companies prefer to keep inventory to a minimum and instead rely on supply chain efficiencies.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 20, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> That raises tons of questions. Will R1 also be a flagship camera? Can there be two flagships? Or R5 will stop being a flagship when they release R1?
> Also they say subscribe and "Be the first to receive the latest updates on the EOS R5 and the new RF Lenses". Should I subscribe to official Canon or stay here on CanonRumors??


Subscribe to official Canon. Definitely... thanks.


----------



## CvH (Feb 20, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> If it's going to be capable of 20fps, even if the viewfinder stutters at 20fps, that's almost an acceptible video framerate. So just based on the fact that we know the camera will do 20fps means that the viewfinder will not be that jerky.



I don't think we can assume that the EVF will have the same 20 frames refresh rate?


----------



## Besisika (Feb 20, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I think I acknowledged that it could be an issue, but if they are shipping in July they have probably started building units for the warehouse. This would be a complex supply chain and they would have been building up components inventories for the last few months in preparation to build even they have not started assembly yet. Depending on the quantity they have built, it could be in extremely limited supply after the pre-orders. I thought Sony's issues was for specialized memory for stacked sensors. In any case, products scheduled for delivery late in the year would be more impacted by the issue in China that products with a mid -year launch already int he manufacturing chain.
> 
> We will see, you may be right.


I have a doubt too. 
I am even more skeptical about the Olympics itself. Too many droplets all over the place.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 20, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I'd like to know that as well. One thing that makes me doubt this is how quickly Canon incorporates firmware updates into the supply chain. Canon seems to be quite good at getting updated firmware into bodies, which would be very expensive, if even possible, if you had a million bodies sitting around waiting to be shipped. Manufacturing processes have changed dramatically since 1985, with very few companies keeping large stocks of inventory on hand these days. Most companies prefer to keep inventory to a minimum and instead rely on supply chain efficiencies.



Canon usually does not announce firmware updates until after they've already started showing up in cameras coming back from cps factory service, which means the firmware updates exist well before they are publicly disclosed. Maybe Canon doesn't announce firmware updates until the cameras they've been putting the new firmware in make their way through the pipeline? Maybe one reason that they don't seal retail boxes is so dealers can update firmware of bodies they have already had in inventory for months? Maybe that's why the recent FTP updates were staggered over several weeks for different models?


----------



## davidmurray (Feb 20, 2020)

When do you think there will be a "R" model out that would be the equivalent in status to the "5D" model?


----------



## Jethro (Feb 20, 2020)

davidmurray said:


> When do you think there will be a "R" model out that would be the equivalent in status to the "5D" model?


Well, we're assuming that the R5 will be equivalent to the 5D series, so the speculation in this thread is that it will be shipping before the Olympics.


----------



## sanj (Feb 20, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> Where is that ranking coming from
> The 1dx is for sports and isn’t clearly viewed as the dominant wildlife camera if there is such a thing


No sir. 1dx3 is THE wildlife camera. Please!


----------



## unfocused (Feb 21, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> First things first: Canon is concerned with yen, not dollars...
> ...$2.4B in unsold inventory of a brand new product is not a cash flow problem for such a company.



People say this all the time. But it isn't true. Canon is a multinational company. They may report income in yen, but they are buying and selling in thousands of local currencies. Canon USA employees don't get paid in yen, nor do Canon Europe employees. Shipping companies don't get paid in yen. The companies printing boxes and manuals and other suppliers from outside of Japan aren't being paid in yen. The bulk of expenses and income is not in yen. No doubt all these transactions are computerized and the various exchange rates accounted for, but to say Canon is only concerned with yen is just silly.

If you think $2.4 Billion in unsold inventory is not a problem, you don't know much about business. In this day and age, no company wants to sit on any more inventory than they absolutely have to.



Michael Clark said:


> ...Maybe one reason that they don't seal retail boxes is so dealers can update firmware of bodies they have already had in inventory for months? Maybe that's why the recent FTP updates were staggered over several weeks for different models?



Are you suggesting that Canon tells Adorama to open all their boxes, unpackage all the cameras, sit at a computer and update the firmware and then neatly repackage each body? Yeah, that makes perfect sense.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 21, 2020)

fentiger said:


> people seem to forget what the whole point of a DX3 is all about.
> that is to get images to the editors desk QUICK.
> R5, 5D4, Sony, can not do that.
> they are not competing with the DX3.
> the DX3 is competing with the PJ who is standing next to him/her, also shooting with a DX3



What makes you believe that 5DIV cannot get images to the editors desk QUICK? There is about 20-30sec delay when you shoot tethered via wifi.


----------



## SteveC (Feb 21, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I'd like to know that as well. One thing that makes me doubt this is how quickly Canon incorporates firmware updates into the supply chain. Canon seems to be quite good at getting updated firmware into bodies, which would be very expensive, if even possible, if you had a million bodies sitting around waiting to be shipped. Manufacturing processes have changed dramatically since 1985, with very few companies keeping large stocks of inventory on hand these days. Most companies prefer to keep inventory to a minimum and instead rely on supply chain efficiencies.



I'm going to engage in pure uneducated speculation here: What if all they do in advance is put the hardware together?

As they receive orders, they load the latest and greatest firmware, then they stick the camera in the box and ship it.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

unfocused said:


> People say this all the time. But it isn't true. Canon is a multinational company. They may report income in yen, but they are buying and selling in thousands of local currencies. Canon USA employees don't get paid in yen, nor do Canon Europe employees. Shipping companies don't get paid in yen. The companies printing boxes and manuals and other suppliers from outside of Japan aren't being paid in yen. The bulk of expenses and income is not in yen. No doubt all these transactions are computerized and the various exchange rates accounted for, but to say Canon is only concerned with yen is just silly.
> 
> If you think $2.4 Billion in unsold inventory is not a problem, you don't know much about business. In this day and age, no company wants to sit on any more inventory than they absolutely have to.
> 
> ...



Well, I have talked to employees of smaller versions of "Adorama" (i.e authorized Canon dealers) who have done just that, although they likely unbox them one at a time, update it, remove the memory card with the update on it and the DC coupler attached to an AC adapter, rebox the camera, then unbox the next one, insert the memory card and DC coupler...


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> What makes you believe that 5DIV cannot get images to the editors desk QUICK? There is about 20-30sec delay when you shoot tethered via wifi.



At the real high pressure events the top shooters are not using WiFi, they're tethering via the gigabit ethernet port.


----------



## nemtom (Feb 21, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Hmmm, Canon still thinking they will ship this in July? Maybe, but I'm dubious based on what's going on right now.  I'll just leave this here...
> 
> View attachment 188843


According to the current article they said that they would ship it before the Summer Games. Who would bet his life that there will be an Olympics in Tokyo in 2020.


----------



## Danglin52 (Feb 21, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Why would the CPS point scheme be related to being a pro product?
> The point scheme is losely related to the cost and/or profit they make with a certain product.



I only posted it as a reference that these are the camera bodies that Canon uses to establish your eligibility for Canon PROFESSIONAL Services. Reality is that the points are price/age of body weighted. It was na information point. Canon apparently considers these bodies as qualifying for special attention and treatment - much different service than when my M5 died.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

Trey T said:


> Tiny bit correction: The concept of pro-level mirrorless was not born in 2018 w/ the EOS R, it started w/ the 7D era (approx 2012) w/ the DPAF in Liveview. Like many are uttering, I wish the R5 will make the 1DXiii obsolete in July 2020. The R5 should be a significant incremental improvement to the 5D but w/o the mirror box.




I shot a 7D as a second body from 2011 until 2015. It was not a "pro" body. It was a "not quite ready for prime time" body that _felt_ like a pro body when shooting, but didn't _look_ like a pro body when examining the output.

The 7D Mark II is the "pro" body that the 7D should have been.


----------



## Danglin52 (Feb 21, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Why would the CPS point scheme be related to being a pro product?
> The point scheme is losely related to the cost and/or profit they make with a certain product.



Regardless, it is used as a method of evaluation to qualify for Canon Professional Services. If this gear qualifies for a pro oriented service offering and is used to qualify for that service, does Canon consider a pro level body? The Cinema cameras are the only other bodies used to determine eligibility - no XXD M, etc.. 

Maybe we need a separate offering - Canon Prosumer Services!

You guys are taking this WAY too seriously.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 21, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I only posted it as a reference that these are the camera bodies that Canon uses to establish your eligibility for Canon PROFESSIONAL Services. Reality is that the points are price/age of body weighted. It was na information point. Canon apparently considers these bodies as qualifying for special attention and treatment - much different service than when my M5 died.



But even the M100 (not in your list) qualifies in for accruing CPS points ...


----------



## GoldWing (Feb 21, 2020)

To me it's all vaporware. After the 1DXMKIII being such a disappointment for us "low life" still sports shooters.... I don't think Canon is anywhere near a professional body that will show a marked improvement in IQ with an OVF. Canon pushing the MKIII for the Olympics is almost laughable. It's a very modest "still" improvement and to be considered and upgrade is insulting.

The IQ is horrible, the color rendition is flat and muddled, definition lacks, noise in shadows at moderate and low ISO show clear green and purple, DR is very poor in contrasting areas, the ovf focus points when using single-point are hard to see, the awb is off to such an extent on some settings that we felt there must be an upgrade or firmware fix or something coming, the reader the camera came with does not work, wi-fi and communications protocols are not intuitive, the scrolling menus are nice but static, shooting mode should have large easy to read and responsive indicators in the VF well lit. Canon got the 1DXMKIII so wrong and it's buggy with some lenses, strobes and flashes, Now we want to talk a bout "another" pro body??? How about they get the one that came out a few days ago right first?????? 

Frustrating seeing promos, marketing and rumors to boots interest or sales in a future camera(s) when others are left baffled at what Canon is doing "Today" in "Reality" where we expected a "flagship" that was supposed to be a marked upgrade for still sports photographers. How do you not improve IQ???????


----------



## dominic_siu (Feb 21, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> Any sense as to how the 2 new bodies are being positioned?
> Is the R5 a jack of all trades or more sports oriented. I cant tell which body I should be saving for?
> 
> I am a wildlife shooter and am overduefor a new body


You need R5


----------



## canonnews (Feb 21, 2020)

Cee Log said:


> Might not be 1DX specs but Canon is officially calling R5 "A professional full frame mirrorless flagship camera".
> 
> https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-r5/


Canon UK is*

*until the 1 series RF camera is announced


----------



## YuengLinger (Feb 21, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> To me it's all vaporware. After the 1DXMKIII being such a disappointment for us "low life" still sports shooters.... I don't think Canon is anywhere near a professional body that will show a marked improvement in IQ with an OVF. Canon pushing the MKIII for the Olympics is almost laughable. It's a very modest "still" improvement and to be considered and upgrade is insulting.
> 
> The IQ is horrible, the color rendition is flat and muddled, definition lacks, noise in shadows at moderate and low ISO show clear green and purple, DR is very poor in contrasting areas, the ovf focus points when using single-point are hard to see, the awb is off to such an extent on some settings that we felt there must be an upgrade or firmware fix or something coming, the reader the camera came with does not work, wi-fi and communications protocols are not intuitive, the scrolling menus are nice but static, shooting mode should have large easy to read and responsive indicators in the VF well lit. Canon got the 1DXMKIII so wrong and it's buggy with some lenses, strobes and flashes, Now we want to talk a bout "another" pro body??? How about they get the one that came out a few days ago right first??????
> 
> Frustrating seeing promos, marketing and rumors to boots interest or sales in a future camera(s) when others are left baffled at what Canon is doing "Today" in "Reality" where we expected a "flagship" that was supposed to be a marked upgrade for still sports photographers. How do you not improve IQ???????




Please post some of the RAW files you've made with this camera so we can see what you are talking about for ourselves.


----------



## Danglin52 (Feb 21, 2020)

joestopper said:


> But even the M100 (not in your list) qualifies in for accruing CPS points ...


The list was copied directly from the CPS site equipment list that qualified minus the Cinema cameras. I just logged into my CPS after seeing your post and looked for your m100 - no m100 on the Add products drop down list. They had added the 90d. There was a c100 Cinema camera on the list.


----------



## Danglin52 (Feb 21, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Please post some of the RAW files you've made with this camera so we can see what you are talking about for ourselves.



So, can you tell me what you find so disappointing about the 1dxIII?


----------



## Danglin52 (Feb 21, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Please post some of the RAW files you've made with this camera so we can see what you are talking about for ourselves.



So, can you explain what you find disappointing about the 1dx III? Sure your aren't talking about the Nikon D6?


----------



## canonnews (Feb 21, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> The list was copied directly from the CPS site equipment list that qualified minus the Cinema cameras. I just logged into my CPS after seeing your post and looked for your m100 - no m100 on the Add products drop down list. They had added the 90d. There was a c100 Cinema camera on the list.


Canon has always had prosumer equipment listed in CPS, primarily because a lot of pros would have that for their back up gear.


----------



## mpmark (Feb 21, 2020)

PageWorks Studios said:


> .... flagship "mirrorless" - that is, the top of their line mirrorless - not flagship for all of Canon ?



I read it as flagship mirrorless


----------



## unfocused (Feb 21, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> .... I don't think Canon is anywhere near a professional body that will show a marked improvement in IQ with an OVF...



As a heavy user of the R, I am skeptical that the next generation of mirrorless will have advanced sufficiently to compete with a DSLR for nature or action. I'd like to be wrong, but I'll wait until the R5 is actually released and out in the field before getting my hopes up.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 21, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Canon has always had prosumer equipment listed in CPS, primarily because a lot of pros would have that for their back up gear.


And also because, at least in recent years, CPS has ceased being a service solely for professionals. (See numerous threads and posts on this topic that we need not revisit)


----------



## canonnews (Feb 21, 2020)

unfocused said:


> And also because, at least in recent years, CPS has ceased being a service solely for professionals. (See numerous threads and posts on this topic that we need not revisit)


that too. anyone can get into CPS.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 21, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> To me it's all vaporware. After the 1DXMKIII being such a disappointment for us "low life" still sports shooters.... I don't think Canon is anywhere near a professional body that will show a marked improvement in IQ with an OVF. Canon pushing the MKIII for the Olympics is almost laughable. It's a very modest "still" improvement and to be considered and upgrade is insulting.
> 
> The IQ is horrible, the color rendition is flat and muddled, definition lacks, noise in shadows at moderate and low ISO show clear green and purple, DR is very poor in contrasting areas, the ovf focus points when using single-point are hard to see, the awb is off to such an extent on some settings that we felt there must be an upgrade or firmware fix or something coming, the reader the camera came with does not work, wi-fi and communications protocols are not intuitive, the scrolling menus are nice but static, shooting mode should have large easy to read and responsive indicators in the VF well lit. Canon got the 1DXMKIII so wrong and it's buggy with some lenses, strobes and flashes, Now we want to talk a bout "another" pro body??? How about they get the one that came out a few days ago right first??????
> 
> Frustrating seeing promos, marketing and rumors to boots interest or sales in a future camera(s) when others are left baffled at what Canon is doing "Today" in "Reality" where we expected a "flagship" that was supposed to be a marked upgrade for still sports photographers. How do you not improve IQ???????


I saw your post on dpreview. you sure you didn't get a body that you're just not happy with? you have historically gotten the worst 1DX Mark II cameras in existance, sounds like it's continuing. Everyone is loving it elsewhere, ie: Fredmiranda.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

SteveC said:


> I'm going to engage in pure uneducated speculation here: What if all they do in advance is put the hardware together?
> 
> As they receive orders, they load the latest and greatest firmware, then they stick the camera in the box and ship it.



There has to be some kind of firmware loaded to map the pixels before it leaves the factory. There also must be a basic firmware already loaded that allows the firmware to be updated via a memory card, since the camera must boot and initialize the bus connected to the memory card in order to load the updated firmware.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 21, 2020)

unfocused said:


> As a heavy user of the R, I am skeptical that the next generation of mirrorless will have advanced sufficiently to compete with a DSLR for nature or action. I'd like to be wrong, but I'll wait until the R5 is actually released and out in the field before getting my hopes up.


I think Canon will be oh-so-close. but not quite there. I noticed on Jared's 1DX Mark III video that it still seemed a little erratic for primary use. They are also still missing animal AF.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

joestopper said:


> But even the M100 (not in your list) qualifies in for accruing CPS points ...



It all depends on which marketing area you're in. The list varies from one business unit to the next.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 21, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Canon has a long track record in doing this. Back in 1985,
> they built all the T90 ever sold within only three months in
> a single production run and then sold it over a five year timespan.
> 
> ...


Yeah.. while I don't disagree that Canon has the manufacturing and distribution clout to pull this off... I have one logical flaw in this:

how do they do firmware updates?
Cameras ship through the lifecycle with updated / upgrade firmware and revised manuals.
are you telling me they go through this storage facility and manually update each and every camera and swap out the manuals,etc?

It's pretty common knowledge they will manufacturer lenses in a batch and sometimes that batch is good for the entire year. So while I could see them doing this for maybe a 3-4 month lead time, I can't see them doing this for the entire product lifecycle. the costs for augmenting or correcting firmware would be astronomical.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 21, 2020)

MadScotsman said:


> I’m delaying a lot of important buying decisions until I see this exact thing.
> 
> And wearing out the refresh icon.
> 
> It’s the news I’m waiting on the most.


I'm shocked and astounded that Canon didn't do a development announcement like last year. I thought that was pretty successful for Canon. It kept them in the press and the narrative going throughout the year pretty much continuously.

My only theory is that Canon isn't quite too sure what they are releasing this year, and they are waiting to see how things progress and they don't want to get locked into promising something in advance.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> Regardless, it is used as a method of evaluation to qualify for Canon Professional Services. If this gear qualifies for a pro oriented service offering and is used to qualify for that service, does Canon consider a pro level body? The Cinema cameras are the only other bodies used to determine eligibility - no XXD M, etc..
> 
> Maybe we need a separate offering - Canon Prosumer Services!
> 
> You guys are taking this WAY too seriously.



Among my total points, I currently have 5 points for a 7D and 5 points for a 7D Mark II, as well as 6 points for a 5D Mark II bought in 2011.

What country is your CPS membership in?


----------



## Bangrossi (Feb 21, 2020)

mpmark said:


> I agree partly, yes I still think they will come out with a 1D type full grip camera but this for me is NOT a 5D replacement, its entirely new.
> 
> If you look at the 5D line it has very incremental steps, this camera is leaps ahead of the current 5D. I have owned all the 5D line from the beginning.
> Its going from,
> ...



I'm afraid the 12fps only possible without af tracking. EOS R spec also capable to do 8fps, but without af tracking. With af servo tracking max fps is reduced to 5fps with frame rate priority or 3fps with focus priority


----------



## David Hull (Feb 21, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> The 5D series were also considered professional.


Lots of professionals that I know used the EOS 5 series. It does not seem unreasonable to call these things "professional". Just about everything is "professional" these days. Walk into Home Depot and try to find a tool that isn't labeled "professional". The term has lost its original meaning.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 21, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> I think you're reading way too deep into marketing jargon. They called it the R5 to convey exactly where they expect to place it in the market. Why else would they jump right from EOS R to R5?
> 
> Also, the R5 does not have the vertical grip, large battery to go along with that, or the additional buttons on the front of the camera they reserve for their 1D level cameras. The R5 is meant as a 5D level camera, there's no question.


Yes.

we go into just that right here








EOS R5 and Future Thoughts


Well now that we have some basic specifications are confirmed about the R5 we can then speculate on other cameras in the lineup. There are two notable missing cameras from the ecosystem that are most certainly going to be addressed by Canon. Some confusion exists on the R5 that I should...



www.canonnews.com


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Yeah.. while I don't disagree that Canon has the manufacturing and distribution clout to pull this off... I have one logical flaw in this:
> 
> how do they do firmware updates?
> Cameras ship through the lifecycle with updated / upgrade firmware and revised manuals.
> ...



Manuals? What manuals? Now all some of their cameras have is a "Basic Instructions" booklet that isn't firmware specific. The full manual has to be downloaded as a .pdf.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 21, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Manuals? What manuals? Now all some of their cameras have is a "Basic Instructions" booklet that isn't firmware specific. The full manual has to be downloaded as a .pdf.


that's true. Showing my age there 

however, they still would have to open the box and update all the firmware. that seems to be as being a very costly adventure that would have to happen mutliple times in a product's lifecycle.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

David Hull said:


> Lots of professionals that I know used the EOS 5 series. It does not seem unreasonable to call these things "professional". Just about everything is "professional" these days. Walk into Home Depot and try to find a tool that isn't labeled "professional". The term has lost its original meaning.



If anything, product, business, or service actually has "Pro" in the official name of the thing, it starts out with two strikes as far as I am concerned.


----------



## navastronia (Feb 21, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> If anything, product, business, or service actually has "Pro" in the official name of the thing, it starts out with two strikes as far as I am concerned.



Yeah, the same way it can be suspect when someone introduces themself as a "professional photographer"


----------



## joestopper (Feb 21, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I'm shocked and astounded that Canon didn't do a development announcement like last year. I thought that was pretty successful for Canon. It kept them in the press and the narrative going throughout the year pretty much continuously.
> 
> My only theory is that Canon isn't quite too sure what they are releasing this year, and they are waiting to see how things progress and they don't want to get locked into promising something in advance.



Well, they have told a number i.e nine RF lenses (incl 2 converter). You think there are several placeholders?
I think that is unlikely: What would be the facts they are waiting for before deciding what to build?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

canonnews said:


> that's true. Showing my age there
> 
> however, they still would have to open the box and update all the firmware. that seems to be as being a very costly adventure that would have to happen mutliple times in a product's lifecycle.



Once a product has launched, it seems everything moves through the pipeline fairly quickly. The products are not sitting in a warehouse in Japan, or in a Canon USA (UK/Europe/AUS/etc.) warehouse. Most of them are sitting in retailers' inventories. But at launch, the pipeline has to be primed and sufficient numbers shipped to fill pre-orders fairly quickly. Otherwise, folks start cancelling orders. Canon wants to be sure to sell as many as possible as soon as possible, because that also makes the model look more successful and can influence overall sales of the life cycle of the product. Containers do not cross oceans in hours or even days. It's weeks.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

canonnews said:


> that's true. Showing my age there
> 
> however, they still would have to open the box and update all the firmware. that seems to be as being a very costly adventure that would have to happen mutliple times in a product's lifecycle.



Maybe the retailer doesn't need to do that until right before they ship it? That could create issues with places like amazon.com, but they are often the ones that ship bodies with out of date firmware, while even B&H and other smaller "specialty" retailers do not.


----------



## weixing (Feb 21, 2020)

COVID-19 start to spread in Japan, so IMHO, it might impact the release date.


----------



## Danglin52 (Feb 21, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Among my total points, I currently have 5 points for a 7D and 5 points for a 7D Mark II, as well as 6 points for a 5D Mark II bought in 2011.
> 
> What country is your CPS membership in?


I am in the US. 1dx II / 10 pts, 5d iv /7 pts. I have some high end lenses for wildlife that represents the majority of my points.


----------



## Danglin52 (Feb 21, 2020)

weixing said:


> COVID-19 start to spread in Japan, so IMHO, it might impact the release date.



An increase of cases in Japan could definitely have an impact on the higher end gea, but that becomes trivial when you consider the impact on life.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 21, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> At the real high pressure events the top shooters are not using WiFi, they're tethering via the gigabit ethernet port.


That’s is correct that alone does not hinder 5DIV capabilities to get fast editorial photos out provided there is a fast connection back to editorial truck at the back of the event. 
And if there none and Ethernet cable only then the following is an amazing option to get your images out via LAN. This little puppy will allow you shooting with no Ethernet cables plugged into your camera. So much more comfortable. 


https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-Wireless-Travel-Router-TL-WR902AC


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

unfocused said:


> If you think $2.4 Billion in unsold inventory is not a problem, you don't know much about business. In this day and age, no company wants to sit on any more inventory than they absolutely have to.



Toyota builds around 2 million vehicles in the U.S. each year (2018 was 1,928,979 units with gross sales of $264.4B ). That's a tad over 37,000 per week spread over ten plants (plus many vehicles sold in the U.S. come from one of the four Canadian plants). Back in the 1990s when I worked in that area of logistics, typical inventory on the ramp at the plants awaiting shipment was 5-7 days. That's between 27,000-37,000 vehicles at an average value of $4-5B in unshipped inventory at any given time. Then there is the inventory sitting at dealers all across the country...

That sales revenue is about 7X Canon Inc.'s on a per annum basis. But the Auto industry does not report net profits of 46% of sales, either. In 2018 Toyota had a gross operating margin of 18.75%. So Toyota's margin was only 2.85X Canon's for 2018.


----------



## ethermine (Feb 21, 2020)

Looking forward to seeing some real world reviews once this camera is out. I’d certainly like to invest in it if it does what I need it to do. I’m also looking forward to some more RF lens announcements later this year and next. One of the lenses I’m keeping my eye open for info on is the RF 600mm f/4.


----------



## Bert63 (Feb 21, 2020)

Any rumors on the price yet?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> That’s is correct that alone does not hinder 5DIV capabilities to get fast editorial photos out provided there is a fast connection back to editorial truck at the back of the event.
> And if there none and Ethernet cable only then the following is an amazing option to get your images out via LAN. This little puppy will allow you shooting with no Ethernet cables plugged into your camera. So much more comfortable.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-Wireless-Travel-Router-TL-WR902AC



That link is dead. But I found it. At best, it runs a single connection at 433 Mb/s, which is only 54MB/s, or about 1/40 the speed of CFast Express 1.0 and less than half the speed of gigabit ethernet.

Then you've got the issue that there are close to 100,000 in close quarters and almost every single one of them has device(s) with 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz transmitters using up all of the available channels...


----------



## joestopper (Feb 21, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Any rumors on the price yet?



Optimists guess 3.2k, pessimists guess 5.5k ...


----------



## Quackator (Feb 21, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Can you please provide a source for this claim?



Someone from inside the company. 

Won't go into detail in order to protect this person.


----------



## Bert63 (Feb 21, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Optimists guess 3.2k, pessimists guess 5.5k ...




I was just curious if anyone had actually heard something from anyone who knows anything lol..


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 21, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> That link is dead. But I found it. At best, it runs a single connection at 433 Mb/s, which is only 54MB/s, or about 1/40 the speed of CFast Express 1.0 and less than half the speed of gigabit ethernet.


Yeah, shooting JPGs, I presume, takes around massive 3-4 seconds to get image wirelessly across to the editors table. 
Benefits are: wifi range is up to 100m outdoors. Y can literary run around sidelines or through crowd with camera with no stinky Ethernet cable anchoring you to the Ethernet port.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> I was just curious if anyone had actually heard something from anyone who knows anything lol..



The final decisions have probably not yet been finalized.


----------



## mpmark (Feb 21, 2020)

Bangrossi said:


> I'm afraid the 12fps only possible without af tracking. EOS R spec also capable to do 8fps, but without af tracking. With af servo tracking max fps is reduced to 5fps with frame rate priority or 3fps with focus priority



I am aware of Eos R fps, as for the R5, we don't know yet so speculation is pointless. Whats promising is that what the R5 can do that the R can't is 20fps in electronic mode, so I doubt the mechanical mode will be so hindered as the Eos r is. that's my hope.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 21, 2020)

SteveC said:


> I'm going to engage in pure uneducated speculation here: What if all they do in advance is put the hardware together?
> 
> As they receive orders, they load the latest and greatest firmware, then they stick the camera in the box and ship it.



Almost there. They build the hardware first, which had been finalized 
at some earlier stage. Sample copies from this production are tortured
and software is being finetuned up to a certain point before launch 
time, when they freeze a release version and load it onto all those 
pre-built cameras that they then send into their distribution channels 
across the world. We all have seen them announce a first shipping day 
and stick to that all over the world.

This isn't speculation, we have seen them doing it in the past over
and over again.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Yeah, shooting JPGs, I presume, takes around massive 3-4 seconds to get image wirelessly across to the editors table.
> Benefits are: wifi range is up to 100m outdoors. Y can literary run around sidelines or through crowd with camera with no stinky Ethernet cable anchoring you to the Ethernet port.



Yeah, because there aren't 50-100,000 other people in close proximity using the hell out of the 2.4 and 5 Ghz bands...


----------



## Quackator (Feb 21, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> At the real high pressure events the top shooters are not using WiFi, they're tethering via the gigabit ethernet port.



Remember there are WFTs, with RJ45 ethernet ports as well.....

I loved the WFT for the 5D MkII in grip style and skipped the 
WFT brick for the 5D Mk4. The WFT dongle for the 1 series 
cameras is also nice.


----------



## David Hull (Feb 21, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> If anything, product, business, or service actually has "Pro" in the official name of the thing, it starts out with two strikes as far as I am concerned.



Yea, that's a good point. Usually the real professional gear, doesn't need the statement.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 21, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Yeah, because there aren't 50-100,000 other people in close proximity using the hell out of the 2.4 and 5 Ghz bands...


5Ghz band is quite resilient in that respect, Michael. I do not suggest shooting with 5DIV Olympics. I am a reasonable person one would thought but premise that 5DIV cannot be used for a quick editorial photos due to lack of connectivity is false. See the OP. 
In a smaller event though, where you do not have hundreds of other photogs in the event : festivals, concerts, public announcement and similar. With typically only a few photogs attending, this setup may be adequate.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 21, 2020)

canonnews said:


> how do they do firmware updates?



Assembling is largely automated today.
Imagine fully assembled cameras to be stacked in racks,
usb plugs connected by robots and firmware updated 
automatically. That can also be part of the final packing 
procedure. They simply don't start boxing all those cameras 
before the firmware is decided to freeze.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 21, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Someone from inside the company.
> 
> Won't go into detail in order to protect this person.



The person was joking ...


----------



## Quackator (Feb 21, 2020)

joestopper said:


> The person was joking ...



Definitely no.


----------



## David_E (Feb 21, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Having done photography for 50 years, and a good chunk of that as a widely published professional sports photographer, if this body has an EVF like the EOS R, it will be quite limited for sports, IMO.


That’s all great. If this, if that... But you _still_ haven’t seen this camera, and are not qualified to judge or rate it. Idle speculation is worth just what it costs.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Feb 21, 2020)

Do we expect a full launch announcement at Photokina then in May? Can't wait for the fuill specs. Stil have all my Canon glass (EF admittedly) and would love to have a really capable Canon mirrorless. Still won't sell my Sony's as the glass I have is too nice to give up, but if the R5 has the DR and AF performance I'm hoping forI might sell the AR73 sooner and just keep the A9.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 21, 2020)

Mr Majestyk said:


> Do we expect a full launch announcement at Photokina then in May?



Yes.


----------



## dslrdummy (Feb 21, 2020)

canonnews said:


> that too. anyone can get into CPS.


Not in Australia. Here it must be your main source of income.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 21, 2020)

David_E said:


> That’s all great. If this, if that... But you _still_ haven’t seen this camera, and are not qualified to judge or rate it. Idle speculation is worth just what it costs.



David, OP was logically correct though in saying that IF R5 EVF has not been improved from R, THEN .... I actually second that motion. But my semi educated guess is that vastly improved sensor readout of R5 will allow for a much lower evf latency. As in you get your evf content more insync with reality and faster . 3 times faster in fact. That may be adequate.


----------



## TAF (Feb 21, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> I think you're looking at this with some seriously rose tinted glasses. I find it hard to believe that Canon has very much stock built up for a camera that's still several months from release. Also generally the way stuff gets manufactured now with just in time component deliveries to the plant, they don't "build up" a stock of components before something gets made. It's a financial liability to set on a bunch of expensive parts months before you actually build a product. Parts are normally delivered to the factory very shortly before they're actually used to build a camera.
> 
> I also don't think Canon will release the camera until they have a good stock of them built up. They aren't going to release the camera with only a very limited supply to sell to people. As soon as the camera is released, people will be looking towards how many Canon has been able to sell to judge if the camera is a success or not. And not having enough stock on hand is a good way for Canon to look very bad from several angles, ie they can't build cameras quickly enough, also the impression that no one is buying their new camera, and finally unhappy customers waiting forever on their preorder. Releasing a camera before you have sufficient stock built up is a recipe for disaster.



Your first paragraph is an excellent synopsis of just in time manufacturing; with a little luck this virus may finally be the end for that dreadful method of operating a business (you're gambling your business that there will never be a supply chain disruption...or you can lay in some extra parts and be in a position to keep working during unforeseen events. Your choice...)

Your second paragraph also does an excellent job of describing how Canon is most likely to do things. And if they want to have sufficient inventory to ensure sales, they are not only making the cameras as we converse, the first batch needs to be in the shipping containers by the end of March to ensure they are in hand by July. Sailing time from Japan is around 20 days in good weather, longer in bad. It takes a week or two to consolidate the containers at the departure port. It takes a week at the receiving port to sort them and get them on their way, then another two weeks for the inventory to get where it needs to be. That's 2 months if everything goes well, 3 if it doesn't. (For low value products like toys, it is double this because the manufacturer isn't willing to spend extra for expedited service, which Canon most likely is).

Here's the weird thing - the initial units for sale will probably come in via air freight, which buys the factory a bit of time to fix any problems that crop up in the initial batches, or which appear in the QA testing of the first batches (that will have already been shipped to meet deadline). Unfortunately, it is cost prohibitive to air freight for really large quantities, so the ones made before the final 'first' batch is air freighted may have to be fixed here in the US.

As for Europe, the sailing time is longer and riskier (pirates etc).

Now maybe Canon can charge enough of a premium to cover air freight for the first 100K cameras or so; that would be an interesting thing to calculate. But even so, if sales/delivery are planned for mid-July, the cameras need to ship by late May/early June. Meaning production needs to start in April. 45 days from now.

I imagine the sales of antacids is high near Canon's factory at the moment.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 21, 2020)

dslrdummy said:


> Not in Australia. Here it must be your main source of income.


but do they actually check it?


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 21, 2020)

bbasiaga said:


> That Fro-knows-photo guy just did a video with the 1DxMkIII where he used some kind of weird adapter that allows the LCD on the back of the camera to be used with an eye cup. That worked out pretty stellar for him. It simulated mirrorless performance as he just locked the shutter out of the way and used live view to shoot.
> 
> -Brian




You want one of these then!

*Z-Finder DSLR Optical Viewfinder*









Zacuto Z-Finder Viewfinder for DSLRs


The first essential item for any DSLR user is an Optical Viewfinder. Zacuto has multiple models for you to choose from. Which Z-Finder right for you?



www.zacuto.com





When we originally bought all those old 5D Mk2's for the Vancouver 2010 Winter Olympics (i.e. our hometown!), it was one of the first type of camera accessory items we got! (after the Wooden Camera-like shoulder mount systems!) 

Wooden Camera
*Shoulder Rig v3 (Pro)*









Shoulder Rig v3 (Pro)


A major update to our popular Shoulder Rig at a lower cost! Now including telescoping arms, additional arm rotation points to widen or narrow grip spacing, a larger and more durable shoulder pad, lighter weight design, and an integrated kickstand for setting the rig down.




woodencamera.com







This Z-finder is a newer more refined version of what we originally purchased.

They're still working great for other newer camera systems!

Get a version of this for the 1Dx3 and you are GOOD TO GO for 20 fps LiveView !!!

.


----------



## gmon750 (Feb 21, 2020)

I consider the R5 to be the mirrorless equivalent of the 5D and an R1 to be the 1DX.

what is considered “professional” is always being changed by armchair “professionals” on the Internet.


----------



## dslrdummy (Feb 21, 2020)

canonnews said:


> but do they actually check it?


Maybe not, but I'm not about to try and find out. And not sure about elsewhere but grey imports aren't eligible.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 21, 2020)

About the EVF lag and the R5.

A sprinter does 100m in 10s, 10m in 1s. If your EVF framerate is 30fps, the athlete will pass 33 cm during the frame update so your view will always be lagging up to 33cm behind (it can be much less depending on several factors, including the shooting angle).
at 60fps it'll be up to 16cm, 120fps -> 8cm etc. I highly doubt the R5's EVF will do 120fps.

However the human reaction time to random events is about 0.1-0.2s which is much longer than the frame duration even at 30fps. With the sprinter in the example above, 0.1s translates to 1m. A trained photographer can predict say a climax of a jump and hit the button upfront, but they'd normally use continuous shooting instead.

Therefore, the EVF lag mostly matters when something unpredictable happens so that the _very first frame_ of the continuous sequence isn't taken too late, or in cases when continuous shooting isn't possible/practical.

That will be important for the future R1 line, but not so important for the R5 I guess. Accredited olympics photogs won't use the R5 anyway, and for the rest, EVF or OVF won't make a big difference, will it?


----------



## edoorn (Feb 21, 2020)

mpmark said:


> I am aware of Eos R fps, as for the R5, we don't know yet so speculation is pointless. Whats promising is that what the R5 can do that the R can't is 20fps in electronic mode, so I doubt the mechanical mode will be so hindered as the Eos r is. that's my hope.



the M6 ii can do 14 fps with tracking. That’s a 32mpix sensor and not without the processing speed of digic x. Think we’re good.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 21, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> But my semi educated guess is that vastly improved sensor readout of R5 will allow for a much lower evf latency.


Total frame render will be roughly <exposure time> + <readout time> + <processing time and transferring the data to the EVF> + <rendering time>
readout may improve it but there are other factors. exposure time may be significant in low light.


----------



## -pekr- (Feb 21, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Could we please just stop the stupidity with the "professional" moniker being given just to the 1DX line? I myself don't give a s... to the whatever sports 20mpx monster is. Different camera, different purposes. So the professional wedding shooters, or the high megapixel photogs working in a commercial advertisement area, are not professionals? I also absolutly don't care, what Canon calls them. 1DX III is not more professional to the photog having a complete different job requirements - how much is it professional, if it does not fit the bill for some?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 21, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> I also absolutly don't care, what Canon calls them.



I'd like Canon to call R5 an 'enthusiast' or even 'amatuer' model, this way the price tag will be much lower. Unfortunately, they wouldn't do that.


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 21, 2020)

edoorn said:


> the M6 ii can do 14 fps with tracking. That’s a 32mpix sensor and not without the processing speed of digic x. Think we’re good.



And 30fps with tracking in 18MP/12-bit crop mode as well.


----------



## bbb34 (Feb 21, 2020)

The word professional only applies to people, not to equipment. It means to perform an activity for the purpose of making money. No more - and no less. It has nothing to do with skill or adequacy.

My local photographer is doing passport photos with a triple (or quadruple?) digit Canon. He is making money with it. Therefore he is using this cheap Canon professionally.

All the rest is marketing fuss.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 21, 2020)

TAF said:


> Meaning production needs to start in April. 45 days from now.



There are cameras in people's hands for testing.
Production is already in full thrust. For sure.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 21, 2020)

bbb34 said:


> The word professional only applies to people, not to equipment.


The word "professional", when applied to equipment, usually means "heavy-duty".

Marketing-driven exceptions are possible.


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Feb 21, 2020)

Just gonna put this out there..

Anybody wanna but me one..? Anybody..?


----------



## canonnews (Feb 21, 2020)

Mr Majestyk said:


> Do we expect a full launch announcement at Photokina then in May? Can't wait for the fuill specs. Stil have all my Canon glass (EF admittedly) and would love to have a really capable Canon mirrorless. Still won't sell my Sony's as the glass I have is too nice to give up, but if the R5 has the DR and AF performance I'm hoping forI might sell the AR73 sooner and just keep the A9.



Craig is confident. I'm wondering if they will just launch it for the Olympics, and just have demo units there for the professionals to try out.

I think we'll have a better idea if we see live units the shows leading up to Photokina, ie: WPPI, PhotographyShow UK, and NAB.


----------



## edoorn (Feb 21, 2020)

Kit. said:


> The word "professional", when applied to equipment, usually means "heavy-duty".
> 
> Marketing-driven exceptions are possible.


absolutely true; I earn my living with the 5D camera's. Sometimes wish for just a bit more speed and buffer, but this option is simply more cost efficient for me. 

Plus, sports photography seems to be in trouble too, as a profession.. https://petapixel.com/2020/02/20/into-the-unknown-reinventing-yourself-as-a-photographer/


----------



## YuengLinger (Feb 21, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> So, can you explain what you find disappointing about the 1dx III? Sure your aren't talking about the Nikon D6?


I think you have quoted me by mistake. I was asking Goldwing to post some images because he was bitterly complaining. I have no idea how the new 1dx is performing, but I'm interested in knowing more!


----------



## YuengLinger (Feb 21, 2020)

edoorn said:


> absolutely true; I earn my living with the 5D camera's. Sometimes wish for just a bit more speed and buffer, but this option is simply more cost efficient for me.
> 
> Plus, sports photography seems to be in trouble too, as a profession.. https://petapixel.com/2020/02/20/into-the-unknown-reinventing-yourself-as-a-photographer/


If we could figure out how to make money with selfies, we'd be set. 

Oh, wait. Come to think of it, the smartphone companies have already cornered the market.


----------



## degos (Feb 21, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> Yes, turns out that the 1DX3 is the best wildlife camera on the planet. Your point?



With the lowest pixel density of any Canon full-frame? Sure, if your wildlife sits 10ft from you. 

Maybe you've never been focal-length limited at 1200mm and f/8. 20fps isn't any help when you can't crop.

Go back and read the 1DX3 white paper. Everything Canon wrote about resolution was orientated towards uncropped sports magazine spreads. 'Wildlife' was mentioned once and then forgotten.


----------



## jam05 (Feb 21, 2020)

Baically disrespect to all the professional owners of the 5D series camera to say that its mirrorless series R5 "is deffinitely not a proffesional" camera.


----------



## Mark3794 (Feb 21, 2020)

Is this the R5?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1230778957340893185


----------



## jam05 (Feb 21, 2020)

After leaving the venues shooting whatever event prelims, semis, or finals, suppose there wont be any "professionals" in Tokyo except those left behind in the pits.


----------



## jam05 (Feb 21, 2020)

Some people have never been to a summer Olympics and don't have a clue.


----------



## YuengLinger (Feb 21, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Baically disrespect to all the professional owners of the 5D series camera to say that its mirrorless series R5 "is deffinitely not a proffesional" camera.


You could save your outrage until the camera comes out. 

True pros don't so easily get rattled. Lighten up!


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 21, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> You could save your outrage until the camera comes out.
> 
> True pros don't so easily get rattled. Lighten up!


I feel so disrespected.   And I'm not even a pro.


----------



## dboris (Feb 21, 2020)

Don't worry, in 1080p 120fps with a 4X crop it will be perfect for sports.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 21, 2020)

dboris said:


> Don't worry, in 1080p 120fps with a 4X crop it will be perfect for sports.



are you talking about Sony A9II?


----------



## slclick (Feb 21, 2020)

I'll be getting one before the Olympics... the Winter Olympics


----------



## slclick (Feb 21, 2020)

dslrdummy said:


> Maybe not, but I'm not about to try and find out. And not sure about elsewhere but grey imports aren't eligible.


Not to worry, I faked it for a couple years. Not like Kramer....


----------



## slclick (Feb 21, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Baically disrespect to all the professional owners of the 5D series camera to say that its mirrorless series R5 "is deffinitely not a proffesional" camera.


Because of all the professional use of the R5 in the real world so far.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 21, 2020)

degos said:


> With the lowest pixel density of any Canon full-frame? Sure, if your wildlife sits 10ft from you.


Technically, not "from you", but "from your camera". A standard Cat 5e Gigabit Ethernet cable can add up to 300ft to it without using a repeater.


----------



## Architect1776 (Feb 21, 2020)

Trey T said:


> Tiny bit correction: The concept of pro-level mirrorless was not born in 2018 w/ the EOS R, it started w/ the 7D era (approx 2012) w/ the DPAF in Liveview. Like many are uttering, I wish the R5 will make the 1DXiii obsolete in July 2020. The R5 should be a significant incremental improvement to the 5D but w/o the mirror box.



The 7D MII was not mirrorless.
The DPAF was Canon showing a superior video method to all others available and still is.


----------



## slclick (Feb 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I feel so disrespected.   And I'm not even a pro.



I hope you have a weather sealed camera for all those tears.


----------



## Architect1776 (Feb 21, 2020)

David Hull said:


> Lots of professionals that I know used the EOS 5 series. It does not seem unreasonable to call these things "professional". Just about everything is "professional" these days. Walk into Home Depot and try to find a tool that isn't labeled "professional". The term has lost its original meaning.



Professional has 2 meanings here.
1. Built like a tank for the type of use a pro will at times need with utter reliability no matter what.
2. Canon Rebels are use by pros with excellent results including journalists. I go to lots of public meetings around the country and look at cameras used by the press present. Rebels are common as well as d5XXX and D3XXX cameras.


----------



## slclick (Feb 21, 2020)

Every few months we circle back to what makes a camera professional.... that's what you get at Page 10 I guess.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 21, 2020)

slclick said:


> Every few months we circle back to what makes a camera professional.... that's what you get at Page 10 I guess.


The DR discussion and art discussion is sure to follow. BTW: 1/3 of a stop is always a deal breaker for me. I got a ticket for that once. 6.3 vs 7.1 is yuuuuuuge!


----------



## Danglin52 (Feb 21, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> I think you have quoted me by mistake. I was asking Goldwing to post some images because he was bitterly complaining. I have no idea how the new 1dx is performing, but I'm interested in knowing more!


Sorry, you are correct. I totally agree with your request, especially if he actually has the 1dx III and is testing. The video of a sports & bird shooter look pretty good to me. Jared was raving about the 1dx III, not bad from someone who is a Sony convert . I have the 1dx II and don't plan to upgrade, but only because I wan the R1 mirrorless version. If I didn't think that was in the works, I would have ordered the 1dx III. I assume the 1dx III is based off the M6 II sensor, which has no problem with IQ or color science.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> 1/3 of a stop is always a deal breaker for me.


That's clearly an unsuccessful attempt to prime a good old DR talk, because 1/3 of a stop doesn't make any difference in the real world situations. 

1 stop does.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (Feb 21, 2020)

Completely agree
And the lines between professional shooters and prosumer is blurred nowadays 

one of the best scuba photographers in the US is a semiretired cardiologist In Florida. He doesn’t consider himself a professional since he does not consider photography as his livelihood. But he leads massive photo excursions and has tons of paid endorsements because he’s really good. 
professional photography doesn’t pay as well as it used to so it’s a part time like gig for a lot of nature guys. lots of folks along that spectrum arebuying the majority of canons gear.




CanonFanBoy said:


> The other problem with the argument is that there are far more people buying these cameras (1DX mark III, R5, etc) that are not professionals at all. Canon having these things at the Olympics is pure marketing. I'll never figure out why people draw the conclusion that professional sports shooters are hefting the whole camera/lens industry upon their shoulders. They just are not. The R5 at the Olympics makes complete sense.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (Feb 21, 2020)

sanj said:


> No sir. 1dx3 is THE wildlife camera. Please!



well we just disagree
Feel free to share where that comes from


----------



## Drcampbellicu (Feb 21, 2020)

dominic_siu said:


> You need R5



It’s looking that way
I’ve got my money saved but am terrified that canon might disappoint me
The specs look almost too good...


----------



## Trey T (Feb 21, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Canon has called the five series "professional" in some world regions while not calling it "professional" in other world regions. That kind of thing is all up to the marketing departments in each subsidiary.


I don't disagree with you and others. I spelled out what "prosumer" is, and when Canon does that, it allows the marketing folks to call it either way, pro or consumer.


----------



## Trey T (Feb 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> This is what I was questioning and what I quoted from you:
> 
> 
> Try to keep up. What gear you or I have has nothing to do with your line of logic.


try and not to misquote me, then we can have a conversation. That's not all I said in your modified quote.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 21, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> That's clearly an unsuccessful attempt to prime a good old DR talk, because 1/3 of a stop doesn't make any difference in the real world situations.
> 
> 1 stop does.


You might have missed the [SARCASM] tag. Or I might have missed it in your post.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 21, 2020)

Trey T said:


> try and not to misquote me, then we can have a conversation. That's not all I said in your modified quote.


----------



## slclick (Feb 21, 2020)

Is there a high level rumor about the RF pancake? Don't recall in what state of ambiguity this one lies....I'd be adapting all glass but will pickup an RF lens if there's a peewee available.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 21, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> That's clearly an unsuccessful attempt to prime a good old DR talk, because 1/3 of a stop doesn't make any difference in the real world situations.
> 
> 1 stop does.


Um, 1/3 of a stop was a reference to the RF 100-500mm being f/7.1 vs f/6.3, not DR.


----------



## Trey T (Feb 21, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> The 7D MII was not mirrorless.
> The DPAF was Canon showing a superior video method to all others available and still is.


the *concept* of the modern day mirrorless, e.g. EOS R, was started when DPAF was utilized in 7Dii or the Cinema camera of that era. 

The concept; the concept; the concept


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 21, 2020)

slclick said:


> Is there a high level rumor about the RF pancake? Don't recall in what state of ambiguity this one lies....I'd be adapting all glass but will pickup an RF lens if there's a peewee available.


There was such a rumor, but it seems the mongers are "waffling" on that one.


----------



## Trey T (Feb 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


>


thank you


----------



## slclick (Feb 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Um, 1/3 of a stop was a reference to the RF 100-500mm being f/7.1 vs f/6.3, not DR.





CanonFanBoy said:


> There was such a rumor, but it seems the mongers are "waffling" on that one.


Don't butter me up, your emoji is syrupy sweet but there were stacks of posts on it I believe. I'd flip for one if so. Someone must have info and I'd like to grill them.


----------



## Trey T (Feb 21, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I shot a 7D as a second body from 2011 until 2015. It was not a "pro" body. It was a "not quite ready for prime time" body that _felt_ like a pro body when shooting, but didn't _look_ like a pro body when examining the output.
> 
> The 7D Mark II is the "pro" body that the 7D should have been.


The architecture, button configuration (e.g. dial and joystick), of 7D and 7Dii is the same. I shot on 7D (along w/ 5Dii) for nearly 10yrs, and just last month bought 7Dii, and there are significant changes but the physial layout is nearly identical (e.g. 7Dii has the additional programmable button next to grip).

You can make other argument like "examining the output" that the crop sensor is horrible in many lower lighting scenario above 800iso. I'm not a pixel peeper, I'm arguing about the ergonomics or the physical layout. And there's a reason why the R5 looks like a 5D (e.g. wheel and joystick) than the Rebel line.

I've said this before the R5 even rumored w/ specs, and it was unpopular, that EOS R and RP are more like Rebel line than 1D predigree. That wheel and joystick is an strong physical attribute that what makes a Canon camera a pro camera.

Again, I'm not arguing about the software, just primarily about the hardware.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 21, 2020)

Trey T said:


> the *concept* of the modern day mirrorless, e.g. EOS R, was started when DPAF was utilized in 7Dii or the Cinema camera of that era.
> 
> The concept; the concept; the concept


The 70D had DPAF first, more than a year before the 7D Mark II. Mirrorless has been around longer than both.


----------



## YuengLinger (Feb 21, 2020)

slclick said:


> Every few months we circle back to what makes a camera professional.... that's what you get at Page 10 I guess.


And, hold on to your hats, because any post now and we are going to be declaring and denying that photography is art.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 21, 2020)

Trey T said:


> I've said this before the R5 even rumored w/ specs, and it was unpopular, that EOS R and RP are more like Rebel line than 1D predigree. That wheel and joystick is an strong physical attribute that what makes a Canon camera a pro camera.



And the battery. Don't forget about the battery.


----------



## YuengLinger (Feb 21, 2020)

Trey T said:


> That wheel and joystick is an strong physical attribute that what makes a Canon camera a pro camera.



You are definitely on to something here! Now that I think about it, I haven't had a good professional phone since we disposed of our last rotary model!


----------



## David_E (Feb 21, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> _IF... THEN... semi educated _[sic] _guess..._


Nothing wrong with that; makes for entertainment in a time of anticipation. But I didn't build my very successful career on semi-educated guesses!


----------



## M. D. Vaden of Oregon (Feb 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> And the battery. Don't forget about the battery.


 I've used the 5D mk iv which was considered pro, and found the EOS R to run circles around it, especially with EF glass like the 85mm 1.2 L in low light. I could also move focus in 1/3 the time. So even the EOS R is pro enough for the weddings and portraits I do. Would rather have two cards, but other than that, great camera.

Most likely going to get an R5, but waiting for cost. I could probably get two EOS R for the price of one R5


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 21, 2020)

M. D. Vaden of Oregon said:


> I've used the 5D mk iv which was considered pro, and found the EOS R to run circles around it, especially with EF glass like the 85mm 1.2 L in low light. I could also move focus in 1/3 the time. So even the EOS R is pro enough for the weddings and portraits I do. Would rather have two cards, but other than that, great camera.
> 
> Most likely going to get an R5, but waiting for cost. I could probably get two EOS R for the price of one R5


I only wish I could afford an R5. That said, the R is a fantastic camera for what I do. Beautiful output. It also uses the same battery as the 5D Mark IV (inside joke).


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 21, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> You are definitely on to something here! Now that I think about it, I haven't had a good professional phone since we disposed of our last rotary model!
> 
> View attachment 188859


None of the youngsters are going to believe this, but I can remember when one could only lease a phone from Ma Bell. It was a great day when I could finally go to the store and buy one. Times have really changed.

You need this to go with it:


----------



## Architect1776 (Feb 21, 2020)

Trey T said:


> the *concept* of the modern day mirrorless, e.g. EOS R, was started when DPAF was utilized in 7Dii or the Cinema camera of that era.
> 
> The concept; the concept; the concept



If you want to get that technical it was live view being adopted by Canon.


----------



## Architect1776 (Feb 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> None of the youngsters are going to believe this, but I can remember when one could only lease a phone from Ma Bell. It was a great day when I could finally go to the store and buy one. Times have really changed.
> 
> You need this to go with it:
> View attachment 188860



Looks like the Sony a7R IV blue tooth/ data transfer system, cutting edge.


----------



## neurorx (Feb 21, 2020)

For those R users, is the electronic shutter have any issues (banding, rolling shutter with rapidly moving objects) problems?


----------



## Pape (Feb 21, 2020)

Hey what if R5 is really best sport R camera what never comes?
What if 1 serie goes to M . Canon makes olympus sport camera crusher with EF-M 200mm f1,4 L 
why would sport peoples be keen drag around heavy equipents ,when small equipemnt could do same job? just asking


----------



## Joules (Feb 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> The 70D had DPAF first, more than a year before the 7D Mark II. Mirrorless has been around longer than both.


The original EOS M actually launched even before the 70D. So yeah, the concept had been there


----------



## FitzwaterPhoto (Feb 21, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Thinking about it, the one place this camera makes no sense is the Olympics. Unless there is somehow no lag in the EVF, it will not work well for sports. Unless it can somehow focus while recording 8k video, it will not work well for sports. For ceremonies, or other more static situations it should be great, but for most of the action, not so much.
> 
> Does anyone know of pro sports shooters who use MILC bodies for action?


Yeah - the Sony A9II is used for sports. This camera is supposed to do 20fps - it will be a great action camera. Not everyone is satisfied with the 20MP of "sports" cameras.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Yes.



Assuming there is a Photokina in May.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> 5Ghz band is quite resilient in that respect, Michael. I do not suggest shooting with 5DIV Olympics. I am a reasonable person one would thought but premise that 5DIV cannot be used for a quick editorial photos due to lack of connectivity is false. See the OP.
> In a smaller event though, where you do not have hundreds of other photogs in the event : festivals, concerts, public announcement and similar. With typically only a few photogs attending, this setup may be adequate.



Photogs aren't the only ones who use 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz bands...


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

dslrdummy said:


> Not in Australia. Here it must be your main source of income.



As long as you state that it is, do they independently verify that? They do not in the U.S.


----------



## slclick (Feb 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> None of the youngsters are going to believe this, but I can remember when one could only lease a phone from Ma Bell. It was a great day when I could finally go to the store and buy one. Times have really changed.
> 
> You need this to go with it:
> View attachment 188860


My Dad gave Ma Bell 30 hard years, you should see the stuff he brought home.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> About the EVF lag and the R5.
> 
> A sprinter does 100m in 10s, 10m in 1s. If your EVF framerate is 30fps, the athlete will pass 33 cm during the frame update so your view will always be lagging up to 33cm behind (it can be much less depending on several factors, including the shooting angle).
> at 60fps it'll be up to 16cm, 120fps -> 8cm etc. I highly doubt the R5's EVF will do 120fps.
> ...



I would not be surprised at all if credentialled Olympic photographers are carrying an R5 as a second or third body, particularly with wider angle lenses.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

edoorn said:


> absolutely true; I earn my living with the 5D camera's. Sometimes wish for just a bit more speed and buffer, but this option is simply more cost efficient for me.
> 
> Plus, sports photography seems to be in trouble too, as a profession.. https://petapixel.com/2020/02/20/into-the-unknown-reinventing-yourself-as-a-photographer/



This one goes into a bit more detail and interviews several who were fairly prominent sports photographers before the collapse:

*What Killed Editorial Sports Photography?: You’ve Got To Hustle As A Sports Shooter These Days*

It's worse now than it was five years ago when it was published.

These days, there are way too many competent well-heeled enthusiasts who are more than willing to shoot for free. The cost of gear is still cheaper than premium seat licenses and tickets, and they get to roam the sidelines!


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

dslrdummy said:


> Maybe not, but I'm not about to try and find out. And not sure about elsewhere but grey imports aren't eligible.



Canon claims to not track serial numbers from the factory to see in which region they end up via official sales channels . I've been told by folks who should know that unless they have possession of a camera, there's no way to tell if a camera is "gray market" or not for the region in which it is being used.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Baically disrespect to all the professional owners of the 5D series camera to say that its mirrorless series R5 "is deffinitely not a proffesional" camera.



I don't care what you call me, as long as you pay me. Preferably up front in small, unmarked bills.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

slclick said:


> I'll be getting one before the Olympics... the Winter Olympics



If the coronavirus keeps spreading, that may be the first that anyone gets one!


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> The 7D MII was not mirrorless.
> The DPAF was Canon showing a superior video method to all others available and still is.



The 7D Mark II was not around in 2012, either. It debuted in quarter four of 2014.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

slclick said:


> I hope you have a weather sealed camera for all those tears.



Salt water is highly corrosive. If there's even a hint of saltwater corrosion on the external screws, Canon factory service will not even open up the body and take a look.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

Trey T said:


> I don't disagree with you and others. I spelled out what "prosumer" is, and when Canon does that, it allows the marketing folks to call it either way, pro or consumer.



"Prosumer" is also a regional marketing label.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

Trey T said:


> the *concept* of the modern day mirrorless, e.g. EOS R, was started when DPAF was utilized in 7Dii or the Cinema camera of that era.
> 
> The concept; the concept; the concept



The 70D introduced Dual Pixel CMOS AF over a year before the 7D Mark II was introduced.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

Trey T said:


> The architecture, button configuration (e.g. dial and joystick), of 7D and 7Dii is the same. I shot on 7D (along w/ 5Dii) for nearly 10yrs, and just last month bought 7Dii, and there are significant changes but the physial layout is nearly identical (e.g. 7Dii has the additional programmable button next to grip).
> 
> You can make other argument like "examining the output" that the crop sensor is horrible in many lower lighting scenario above 800iso. I'm not a pixel peeper, I'm arguing about the ergonomics or the physical layout. And there's a reason why the R5 looks like a 5D (e.g. wheel and joystick) than the Rebel line.
> 
> ...



The biggest difference was the AF system. The difference between AF performance of the 7D and 7D Mark II is night and day.

The 7D had a less than pro level AF system that, while highly configurable, was wildly inconsistent from shot-to-shot.
The 7D Mark II has a pro level AF system almost identical to the 1D X/5D Mark III AF system.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> You are definitely on to something here! Now that I think about it, I haven't had a good professional phone since we disposed of our last rotary model!
> 
> View attachment 188859



In terms of audio quality, that is the *TRUTH!*


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

Pape said:


> Hey what if R5 is really best sport R camera what never comes?
> What if 1 serie goes to M . Canon makes olympus sport camera crusher with EF-M 200mm f1,4 L
> why would sport peoples be keen drag around heavy equipents ,when small equipemnt could do same job? just asking



Because smaller equipment can't do the same job. Those pesky laws of physics.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

Joules said:


> The original EOS M actually launched even before the 70D. So yeah, the concept had been there



I had a mirrorless Canon camera in 2004, and it was far from Canon's first. It was a PowerShot A540.


----------



## jam05 (Feb 21, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Thinking about it, the one place this camera makes no sense is the Olympics. Unless there is somehow no lag in the EVF, it will not work well for sports. Unless it can somehow focus while recording 8k video, it will not work well for sports. For ceremonies, or other more static situations it should be great, but for most of the action, not so much.
> 
> Does anyone know of pro sports shooters who use MILC bodies for action?


When people think of the Summer Olympics they tend to think of nothing but fast moving sports. There are more events at the Summer Olympics than fast moving sports. Even outside the venues, Olympic village, Opening Ceremonies etc. There are more things going on during a Summer Olympics than mere fast moving sporting events. Heck, go over to sportshooter.com and take a look at what cameras professional sports photogs are uploading images from. You would be surprised. Not all are from 1dx cameras.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 21, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> 5Ghz band is quite resilient in that respect, Michael. I do not suggest shooting with 5DIV Olympics. I am a reasonable person one would thought but premise that 5DIV cannot be used for a quick editorial photos due to lack of connectivity is false. See the OP.
> In a smaller event though, where you do not have hundreds of other photogs in the event : festivals, concerts, public announcement and similar. With typically only a few photogs attending, this setup may be adequate.



Please let me remind you of the original statement I made to which you responded (emphasis added):

At the _*real high pressure events*_ the top shooters are not using WiFi, they're tethering via the gigabit ethernet port.


----------



## slclick (Feb 21, 2020)

jam05 said:


> When people think of the Summer Olympics they tend to think of nothing but fast moving sports. There are more events at the Summer Olympics than fast moving sports. Even outside the venues, Olympic village, Opening Ceremonies etc. There are more things going on during a Summer Olympics than mere fast moving sporting events. Heck, go over to sportshooter.com and take a look at what cameras professional sports photogs are uploading images from. You would be surprised. Not all are from 1dx cameras.


Exactly. Look at an NFL game, you have a mix of 1D and 5D bodies for the most part. Not all the shots are downfield.


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## jam05 (Feb 21, 2020)

However I regret mentioning "sportsshooter.com" that site has pretty much been dormant for quite some time. I just thought about that after I typed it. LOL


----------



## Rule556 (Feb 21, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> There has to be some kind of firmware loaded to map the pixels before it leaves the factory. There also must be a basic firmware already loaded that allows the firmware to be updated via a memory card, since the camera must boot and initialize the bus connected to the memory card in order to load the updated firmware.


Yes, those components are likely pre-flashed before assembly. Can’t imagine why they‘d do it differently. Especially since it’s user-updateable, and it lets dealers update them if they want or need to. They would have finalized the release version of the firmware during prototype production


Quackator said:


> Assembling is largely automated today.
> Imagine fully assembled cameras to be stacked in racks,
> usb plugs connected by robots and firmware updated
> automatically. That can also be part of the final packing
> ...



Typically the electronic components are already flashed before assembly, at least that's how it's done in the industry I work for.


----------



## FramerMCB (Feb 21, 2020)

y2kunals said:


> Not sure how a lot of people would feel about lifting the camera higher to bring the LCD up to the correct height. It could work for a little bit, but in the long run of some shoots it might be tiring. That's def a band-aid.


I just watched a video where an "explorer of light" for Canon was shooting this along with a fellow from DP Review (video found there) with the 1DX Mk iii at a ranch in south Texas from blinds - he had his on a tripod with a gimbal head and a 600mm f4.0L IS II and tried out the liveview shooting mode for the 20 frames/second and was very impressed with what the camera was capturing and the overall hit-rate for frames in focus. He felt the hit-rate much better than his 1DX Mk ii, adding that he was not complaining about his Mk ii, just impressed with the in-focus hit-rate of his new Mk III. 
Reviewers complaining about the 20 frames/second but only in live-view apparently were not considering/thinking about shooting from a tripod and/or monopod set up where you only have to have one hand to hold/control the camera...


----------



## StoicalEtcher (Feb 21, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> $2.4B in unsold inventory of a brand new product is not a cash flow problem for such a company.


It may not be impossible, but it's a heck of a lot, even for Canon, for one particular model in one particular division. I'm not saying its not true, but I'd join with those expressing interest in seeing the source of that 'statistic' (which I appreciate wasn't one you posted).
Cheers


----------



## StoicalEtcher (Feb 21, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> I don't think Canon is anywhere near a professional body that will show a marked improvement in IQ with an OVF. Canon pushing the MKIII for the Olympics is almost laughable. It's a very modest "still" improvement...


But you do see it as an improvement then, albeit not a significant one for you?
On that basis, it surely makes it Canon's "best" camera for those purposes, and given there continue to be a huge number of wildlife, journalist, sports, etc. awards won by those wielding Canon's products, I'm not convinced it can be that terrible.

I don't think there is that much scope left for dramatic DR improvement in reality, but I'm a photographer rather than an electronics engineer, so I may be wrong....

Having said that, as a potential purchaser for a specific project, I would genuinely be interested in your posting some examples of the issues you're seeing, since you're the one with it, not me.

Thanks


----------



## StoicalEtcher (Feb 21, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Assembling is largely automated today.
> Imagine fully assembled cameras to be stacked in racks,
> usb plugs connected by robots and firmware updated
> automatically. That can also be part of the final packing
> ...


You may have watched The Matrix too many times  I've been in a large number of electronics factories and warehouses over recent years, and never seen product plugged into the mainframe in massive volumes.


----------



## FramerMCB (Feb 21, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Yeah, it's such an unmitigated disaster for wildlife and birding...


Hey, hey! This is the video I referenced in a reply to an earlier comment in this thread. I thought this was a great video to show how effective and realistic shooting with the 1DX Mk iii in LiveView could be.

When I watched listened to Northrup and Polin both 'decrying' the LiveView shooting mode (frames/sec & autofocusing) they were both, I felt, scoffing at anyone actually trying to shoot this way - by holding the heavy camera/lens out at "arms length". I thought at the time they were both disingenuous with their comments. I thought, this would be a fantastic feature for someone shooting the type of sports/wildlife etc. where you know where the action is and where to set up your tripod/monopod to be capture the action...

I think they both have some 'serious skin in the game' now with Sony so I took their early looks with a grain of salt...


----------



## FramerMCB (Feb 21, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I saw your post on dpreview. you sure you didn't get a body that you're just not happy with? you have historically gotten the worst 1DX Mark II cameras in existance, sounds like it's continuing. Everyone is loving it elsewhere, ie: Fredmiranda.


I'm pretty sure this is either a troll, or someone buying graymarket bodies that have been run-over after they fell off the back of the delivery truck...


----------



## Rule556 (Feb 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> The DR discussion and art discussion is sure to follow. BTW: 1/3 of a stop is always a deal breaker for me. I got a ticket for that once. 6.3 vs 7.1 is yuuuuuuge!



Maybe I should link images from my new art exhibition of test target photos and DR graphs suspended in vats of Ilford developer. They were all shot at f/22.


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## Rule556 (Feb 21, 2020)

slclick said:


> Is there a high level rumor about the RF pancake? Don't recall in what state of ambiguity this one lies....I'd be adapting all glass but will pickup an RF lens if there's a peewee available.



I really want an f/2.8 20mm. With a lens like that my travel kit will be complete.


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## slclick (Feb 21, 2020)

Rule556 said:


> I really want an f/2.8 20mm. With a lens like that my travel kit will be complete.


An RF version of a Color Skopar


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## Rule556 (Feb 21, 2020)

slclick said:


> Don't butter me up, your emoji is syrupy sweet but there were stacks of posts on it I believe. I'd flip for one if so. Someone must have info and I'd like to grill them.



You must be Swedish.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 21, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Assuming there is a Photokina in May.



Dang! You nailed it.

Apparently, no exhbitor so far has received a booking confirmation.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 21, 2020)

Rule556 said:


> You must be Swedish.


Why did you quote it?

Now I need to make some pancakes


----------



## slclick (Feb 21, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Why did you quote it?
> 
> Now I need to make some pancakes


Now I've got Alicia Vikander on the mind and yes, I am Swedish.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 21, 2020)

unfocused said:


> You might have missed the [SARCASM] tag. Or I might have missed it in your post.


Good sarcasm doesn't need tagging...


----------



## SteB1 (Feb 22, 2020)

I think there is a very strong possibility that the 2020 Tokyo Olympics will be cancelled because of the coronavirus outbreak. The photo shows have been cancelled and Olympics are potentially a much bigger problem. It's likely even if it is contained in China, and there's a strong chance it won't be, there will be more cases internationally.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 22, 2020)

FramerMCB said:


> I just watched a video where an "explorer of light" for Canon was shooting this along with a fellow from DP Review (video found there) with the 1DX Mk iii at a ranch in south Texas from blinds - he had his on a tripod with a gimbal head and a 600mm f4.0L IS II and tried out the liveview shooting mode for the 20 frames/second and was very impressed with what the camera was capturing and the overall hit-rate for frames in focus. He felt the hit-rate much better than his 1DX Mk ii, adding that he was not complaining about his Mk ii, just impressed with the in-focus hit-rate of his new Mk III.
> Reviewers complaining about the 20 frames/second but only in live-view apparently were not considering/thinking about shooting from a tripod and/or monopod set up where you only have to have one hand to hold/control the camera...



Most of us have probably seen that video, and the examples certainly look very good in it, but one must also realize it was a video whose production was sponsored by Canon, and thus certain limits were put on what he could and could not say (as per the agreement anyone with a pre-release copy to test also signs).


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 22, 2020)

StoicalEtcher said:


> You may have watched The Matrix too many times  I've been in a large number of electronics factories and warehouses over recent years, and never seen product plugged into the mainframe in massive volumes.



They wouldn't be plugged in in massive quantities, they'd just come down the conveyor, get plugged in and the file would be downloaded and flashed, then the next would come down the conveyor and the same plug would plug into the next one... There might be a few stations so that multiple copies are done at the same time, but there would be absolutely no need to do them _all_ simultaneously.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 22, 2020)

StoicalEtcher said:


> It may not be impossible, but it's a heck of a lot, even for Canon, for one particular model in one particular division. I'm not saying its not true, but I'd join with those expressing interest in seeing the source of that 'statistic' (which I appreciate wasn't one you posted).
> Cheers



I doubt Canon does it on the same scale they did with the T90 back in the day, which did only have a single production run, but based on what a lot of us hear, they still do batches in bulk, especially for product introductions. They realize more than most consumer electronic companies that impulse sales are most likely when the new model has just been introduced and that the longer a product is on the market, the less attractive it is to impulse buyers.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 22, 2020)

FramerMCB said:


> Hey, hey! This is the video I referenced in a reply to an earlier comment in this thread. I thought this was a great video to show how effective and realistic shooting with the 1DX Mk iii in LiveView could be.
> 
> When I watched listened to Northrup and Polin both 'decrying' the LiveView shooting mode (frames/sec & autofocusing) they were both, I felt, scoffing at anyone actually trying to shoot this way - by holding the heavy camera/lens out at "arms length". I thought at the time they were both disingenuous with their comments. I thought, this would be a fantastic feature for someone shooting the type of sports/wildlife etc. where you know where the action is and where to set up your tripod/monopod to be capture the action...
> 
> I think they both have some 'serious skin in the game' now with Sony so I took their early looks with a grain of salt...



I don't know which "Fro" video you saw, but in the one I saw he was practically drooling all over the thing wanting to keep it instead of having to send it back (it was a reviewer loaner from Canon). He seemed practically ready to go back to Canon immediately in anticipation of the first mirrorless body with the same technology via an EVF as the Live View on the 1D X Mark III has.


----------



## Pape (Feb 22, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Because smaller equipment can't do the same job. Those pesky laws of physics.


Hmm when thinking you got 1dx3 and 500mm f4 and M camera with 200mm F1,4 , their view field is about same and reach .
About light sensitivity crop sensor is 1,5 stop weaker but larger F number would compensate it when you can use 2 stop smaller iso.
I know 200mm f1,4 is hard to make for full frame but for crop it could be lot easier.
You dont need get minituarizion even phone camera level to get 1dx3 equal M camera. Olympus seems doing ok even with lot less design resources than canon.
And you dont need lens IS for action shooting ,ibis is enough for that work. So no needing extra pins
Sorry if i use wrong terms ,my word memory isnt always working good.
Just saying R sport camera isnt 100% sure ,mirrorless revolution gives opportunity for big changes.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 22, 2020)

Pape said:


> Hmm when thinking you got 1dx3 and 500mm f4 and M camera with 200mm F1,4 , their view field is about same and reach .
> About light sensitivity crop sensor is 1,5 stop weaker but larger F number would compensate it when you can use 2 stop smaller iso.
> I know 200mm f1,4 is hard to make for full frame but for crop it could be lot easier.
> You dont need get minituarizion even phone camera level to get 1dx3 equal M camera. Olympus seems doing ok even with lot less design resources than canon.
> ...



The Canon EF-M cameras have 1.6X APS-C sensors, so to get the same angle of view as a FF with a 500mm f/4, one must use a 315mm lens. If one wants the same DoF at the same distance, one must use f/3.1. Have you priced a 300mm f/2.8 lately? Have you weighed it? For that matter, have you priced a 200mm f/2?

Even a Micro Four-Thirds camera would need a 250mm f/2 lens to get the "equivalent" shot as a 500mm f/4 on FF.


----------



## Pape (Feb 22, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The Canon EF-M cameras have 1.6X APS-C sensors, so to get the same angle of view as a FF with a 500mm f/4, one must use a 315mm lens. If one wants the same DoF at the same distance, one must use f/3.1. Have you priced a 300mm f/2.8 lately? Have you weighed it? For that matter, have you priced a 200mm f/2?
> 
> Even a Micro Four-Thirds camera would need a 250mm f/2 lens to get the "equivalent" shot as a 500mm f/4 on FF.


Yep i was lazy to count right numbers ,told just about aproximately 
Many bird shooter seems to like new olympus and 300f4. canon with canon lens making skills could make lot better.
Still 300mm f2,8 is more agile to use than 500f4


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## Michael Clark (Feb 22, 2020)

Pape said:


> Yep i was lazy to count right numbers ,told just about aproximately
> Many bird shooter seems to like new olympus and 300f4. canon with canon lens making skills could make lot better.
> Still 300mm f2,8 is more agile to use than 500f4



300mm f/4 on an MFT body equates to a 600mm f/8 on FF body.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 22, 2020)

David_E said:


> Nothing wrong with that; makes for entertainment in a time of anticipation. But I didn't build my very successful career on semi-educated guesses!
> 
> View attachment 188858


I don't suppose you believe that participation in a photography rumour forum web site is someones career, including myself. This is a rumor webs site. we cannot be certain of things here.. Now, being a CIA asset, you would have no trouble to get a background on what my day job is, experience, competencies and skills.
Personally, I believe that you should not be publicly vocal about who do you work for. My employer certainly would not appreciate me doing that. Aren't you under a confidentiality agreement of some sort? You just made a direct association of yourself as in your personal life with your employer and you did not have to.
I personally believe, that you should remove the photo from the post. This is isn't strictly appropriate place for this.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 22, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> 300mm f/4 on an MFT body equates to a 600mm f/8 on FF body.


in what way? exposure certainly is not sensor size related.

I mean my Sekonic light meter does not give a hoot what camera is in my hands or even what focal range of the lens that is attached to that camera.
all i need to know is ISO and F-number and/ or Shutter speed.
Bokeh? yes, I get that.


----------



## Joules (Feb 22, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> I mean my Sekonic light meter does not give a hoot what camera is in my hands or even what focal range of the lens that is attached to that camera.
> 
> Bokeh? yes, I get that.


A viewer also doesn't give a hoot what the exposure settings of an image are.

The image quality matters, and part of that is how prominent noise appears. A property called Signal to Noise ratio, which is also equivalent between the scenarios Michael mentioned.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 22, 2020)

Got it. Noise to signal ratio matters. How is that related to 300/F4 on FF vs 600/F8 on MFT? I understand that noise to signal ration of MFT is lagging behind FF sensor. At high ISO. and by approx 2 stop behind. I got it. What I am genuinely hope to understand how this is 300/4 vs 600/8?


----------



## Pape (Feb 22, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> 300mm f/4 on an MFT body equates to a 600mm f/8 on FF body.


So only reason olympus isnt 1d serie cameras killer ,they lack knowledge about making wider lense?
Maybe thats why we never see good crop tele lense. Canon never going to teatch MFT league how to make good teles,or they are *******


----------



## Kit. (Feb 22, 2020)

Pape said:


> So only reason olympus isnt 1d serie cameras killer ,they lack knowledge about making wider lense?
> Maybe thats why we never see good crop tele lense. Canon never going to teatch MFT league how to make good teles,or they are *******


Has Canon ever managed to make a 300/2.0 lens, though (required to be an equivalent to 600/4 here)? I thought, only Nikon was making them.


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 22, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Has Canon ever managed to make a 300/2.0 lens, though (required to be an equivalent to 600/4 here)? I thought, only Nikon was making them.



They made a few 300mm f/1.8 lenses: https://petapixel.com/2017/04/27/canon-300mm-f1-8-yes-monster-lens-exists/


----------



## David_E (Feb 22, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> _I don't suppose you believe that participation in a photography rumour forum web site is someones career, including myself. This is a rumor webs site. we cannot be certain of things here.. Now, being a CIA asset, you would have no trouble to get a background on what my day job is, experience, competencies and skills.
> Personally, I believe that you should not be publicly vocal about who do you work for. My employer certainly would not appreciate me doing that. Aren't you under a confidentiality agreement of some sort? You just made a direct association of yourself as in your personal life with your employer and you did not have to.
> I personally believe, that you should remove the photo from the post. This is isn't strictly appropriate place for this._


CIA officers are called just that: officers. Not assets, not agents. Agents, aka assets, are foreign nationals that CIA case officers recruit to provide intelligence or perform other services.

Your curriculum vitae? Wouldn't know where to start. Linkedin? Facebook? I worked against foreign nations, not American photographers.

_Publicly vocal_: That's a _retirement_ medallion! I retired 26 years ago.

_Confidentiality agreement_: I applied to have my cover lifted when I retired and my application was approved. I carry an official ID card identifying me as a CIA retiree. Gets me a discount at hotels. My confidentiality agreement concerns sources and methods, operations, and colleagues. That I worked for the CIA more than a quarter century ago is not a secret.


----------



## StoicalEtcher (Feb 22, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> They wouldn't be plugged in in massive quantities, they'd just come down the conveyor, get plugged in and the file would be downloaded and flashed, then the next would come down the conveyor and the same plug would plug into the next one... There might be a few stations so that multiple copies are done at the same time, but there would be absolutely no need to do them _all_ simultaneously.





Michael Clark said:


> I doubt Canon does it on the same scale they did with the T90 back in the day, which did only have a single production run, but based on what a lot of us hear, they still do batches in bulk, especially for product introductions. They realize more than most consumer electronic companies that impulse sales are most likely when the new model has just been introduced and that the longer a product is on the market, the less attractive it is to impulse buyers.


Fair enough - but this assumes they are lying around, ready but, I guess, not yet boxed up (?) and then get updated before packing for shipping. While I agree this is something along the lines that will happen, I guess I was still coming at it from the suggestion that there could be million(s) of cameras held in stock, amounting to circa $2.4Bn, awaiting update and despatch (it was the likely quantum I was questioning).

I agree entirely with your views on impulse purchases.

Cheers.


----------



## reef58 (Feb 22, 2020)

GoldWing said:


> To me it's all vaporware. After the 1DXMKIII being such a disappointment for us "low life" still sports shooters.... I don't think Canon is anywhere near a professional body that will show a marked improvement in IQ with an OVF. Canon pushing the MKIII for the Olympics is almost laughable. It's a very modest "still" improvement and to be considered and upgrade is insulting.
> 
> The IQ is horrible, the color rendition is flat and muddled, definition lacks, noise in shadows at moderate and low ISO show clear green and purple, DR is very poor in contrasting areas, the ovf focus points when using single-point are hard to see, the awb is off to such an extent on some settings that we felt there must be an upgrade or firmware fix or something coming, the reader the camera came with does not work, wi-fi and communications protocols are not intuitive, the scrolling menus are nice but static, shooting mode should have large easy to read and responsive indicators in the VF well lit. Canon got the 1DXMKIII so wrong and it's buggy with some lenses, strobes and flashes, Now we want to talk a bout "another" pro body??? How about they get the one that came out a few days ago right first??????
> 
> Frustrating seeing promos, marketing and rumors to boots interest or sales in a future camera(s) when others are left baffled at what Canon is doing "Today" in "Reality" where we expected a "flagship" that was supposed to be a marked upgrade for still sports photographers. How do you not improve IQ???????



I am going to disagree with you on this. I have faced challenging shooting conditions, and haven't really shot anything I am proud to publish, but the 1dx3 files look pretty good. I will try and post some in the coming weeks. I found the af points readily visible, and actually and surprisingly the card reader works fine. I have not tried the communications settings. I will say the live view still shooting is slick. It is super fast and accurate. I am waiting on my Zacuto large frame mount and I will be set. 

I haven't used it enough to proclaim it is super duper but my initial impressions are much different than yours.


----------



## RunAndGun (Feb 23, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Thinking about it, the one place this camera makes no sense is the Olympics. Unless there is somehow no lag in the EVF, it will not work well for sports. Unless it can somehow focus while recording 8k video, it will not work well for sports. For ceremonies, or other more static situations it should be great, but for most of the action, not so much.
> 
> Does anyone know of pro sports shooters who use MILC bodies for action?



I’m curious of the reasoning behind this. We don’t have optical VF’s on “TV” cameras. They’re all electronic. NFL Films guys have been largely shooting on Amira’s for years, now, which have EVF’s. All those super tight, super slow-mo replays you see on TV are from video cameras with EVF’s.

Now, I’m not saying I know anything about the performance of the R5’s EVF, but just because it’s an EVF doesn’t necessarily make it unsuitable for and preclude it from being able to shoot sports. If that were the case, well, no one would be watching sports on TV. 

I’d also make the argument, that if using the electronic shutter doesn’t have any negative consequences vs. the physical/mechanical shutter(like skew, other RS artifacts), then sports shooter should rejoice, because now the VF image is no longer blacked-out during exposure. When shooting with a traditional DSLR how often and for how long is their no image in the VF during a typical “rip” of images? I haven’t shot with a mirrorless like this, so I don’t know, but I’d have to imagine that even using the physical shutter, there’s probably (at least a little) less black-out time, even then, since there is no longer a mirror having to me moved in and out of place, either.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 23, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> in what way? exposure certainly is not sensor size related.
> 
> I mean my Sekonic light meter does not give a hoot what camera is in my hands or even what focal range of the lens that is attached to that camera.
> all i need to know is ISO and F-number and/ or Shutter speed.
> Bokeh? yes, I get that.



Depth of Field, which, though related, is not the same thing as "bokeh".


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 23, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Has Canon ever managed to make a 300/2.0 lens, though (required to be an equivalent to 600/4 here)? I thought, only Nikon was making them.






But you've got it backwards. A FF 600mm f/4 lens would be "equivalent" to a 300mm f/2 lens on a Micro Four-Thirds camera.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 23, 2020)

RunAndGun said:


> I’m curious of the reasoning behind this. We don’t have optical VF’s on “TV” cameras. They’re all electronic. NFL Films guys have been largely shooting on Amira’s for years, now, which have EVF’s. All those super tight, super slow-mo replays you see on TV are from video cameras with EVF’s.
> 
> Now, I’m not saying I know anything about the performance of the R5’s EVF, but just because it’s an EVF doesn’t necessarily make it unsuitable for and preclude it from being able to shoot sports. If that were the case, well, no one would be watching sports on TV.
> 
> I’d also make the argument, that if using the electronic shutter doesn’t have any negative consequences vs. the physical/mechanical shutter(like skew, other RS artifacts), then sports shooter should rejoice, because now the VF image is no longer blacked-out during exposure. When shooting with a traditional DSLR how often and for how long is their no image in the VF during a typical “rip” of images? I haven’t shot with a mirrorless like this, so I don’t know, but I’d have to imagine that even using the physical shutter, there’s probably (at least a little) less black-out time, even then, since there is no longer a mirror having to me moved in and out of place, either.



Video cameras record frames continuously. There's no need to time an exact moment and press the shutter button just the right amount of microseconds in advance as there is with still imaging. Plus, we've all seen the super-slow-mo playback where the football is just short of the goal line and the runner's foot is still in the air in one video frame and in the next video frame both the football has broken the plane of the goalline _and_ the foot has landed out of bounds. There's no way to tell from that video which happened first: the ball breaking the plane or the foot touching out of bounds.


----------



## Yasko (Feb 24, 2020)

Spoiler: There will be no summer olympics due to CoVid-19 out reak I fear.


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## RunAndGun (Feb 24, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> *1) Video cameras record frames continuously. There's no need to time an exact moment and press the shutter button just the right amount of microseconds in advance as there is with still imaging.* 2) Plus, we've all seen the super-slow-mo playback where the football is just short of the goal line and the runner's foot is still in the air in one video frame and in the next video frame both the football has broken the plane of the goalline _and_ the foot has landed out of bounds. There's no way to tell from that video which happened first: the ball breaking the plane or the foot touching out of bounds.



1) That argument may have held some water 20 years ago, but not today. Still cameras are doing almost the same thing today with the high frame rates that they're capable of running. Most pro still sports shooters just hold down the shutter during a play and sort it out later. I see the guys going through their images in the media work room post game and it's almost like watching a video when some of them scroll through their images. Don't misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm not saying a lot of those guys don't have the eye and instincts but let's not pretend that the camera doesn't play a huge roll in capturing that decisive moment.

2) That is tied to the frame rate that they're recording. Was it 60fps? 120fps? 1000fps? The higher the frame rate, the more likely you are to capture any given "moment". Or are you trying to say that a still photographer with an optical VF would get the frame between those two frames, instead, because they would have been able to hit the shutter at the right microsecond to capture that frame?


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## yeahright (Feb 24, 2020)

I must confess I haven't read through all 15 pages of this thread, so I don't know if that has been brought up yet in the discussion about EVF lag, and I don't know the actual numbers (maybe someone can help out):
Isn't the additional time required to mechanically lift the mirror after pressing the shutter release a much higher disadvantage of the DSLR than the viewfinder lag in mirrorless? After all, the time that passes from when the action happens to when the image is starting to be recorded is reaction time + mirror up in a DSLR, and viewfinder lag + reaction time in a DSLM


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## Sharlin (Feb 24, 2020)

yeahright said:


> I must confess I haven't read through all 15 pages of this thread, so I don't know if that has been brought up yet in the discussion about EVF lag, and I don't know the actual numbers (maybe someone can help out):
> Isn't the additional time required to mechanically lift the mirror after pressing the shutter release a much higher disadvantage of the DSLR than the viewfinder lag in mirrorless? After all, the time that passes from when the action happens to when the image is starting to be recorded is reaction time + mirror up in a DSLR, and viewfinder lag + reaction time in a DSLM



The mirror lag is, crucially, not a part of a control–feedback cycle, whereas EVF lag is. In other words, mirror lag does not affect your ability to track a subject, but EVF lag does because there’s a latency between adjustment and feedback. Besides, pro body mirrors are damn fast at getting out of the way, until very recent times quite a bit faster than the readout times of electronic shutters. Remember that physical shutters still comfortably beat CMOS e-shutters in speed!


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## yeahright (Feb 24, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> The mirror lag is, crucially, not a part of a control–feedback cycle, whereas EVF lag is. In other words, mirror lag does not affect your ability to track a subject, but EVF lag does because there’s a latency between adjustment and feedback. Besides, pro body mirrors are damn fast at getting out of the way, until very recent times quite a bit faster than the readout times of electronic shutters. Remember that physical shutters still comfortably beat CMOS e-shutters in speed!


the mirror lag may not be in the angular tracking control loop, but it is in the timing control loop, when it's about 'capturing the moment'.


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## Kit. (Feb 24, 2020)

yeahright said:


> I must confess I haven't read through all 15 pages of this thread, so I don't know if that has been brought up yet in the discussion about EVF lag, and I don't know the actual numbers (maybe someone can help out):
> Isn't the additional time required to mechanically lift the mirror after pressing the shutter release a much higher disadvantage of the DSLR than the viewfinder lag in mirrorless?


We were talking about shutter lag in DSLRs an mirrorless, and there are links with the numbers. The short answer is no, it isn't.


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## mpmark (Feb 24, 2020)

Think how everyone is taking this R5 excitment


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## SecureGSM (Feb 25, 2020)

mpmark said:


> Think how everyone is taking this R5 excitment



And who is “Everyone”? There is no such a thing as unified camera users or photographers collective or universal opinion. Interesting though. 
From an acting Enterprise Sales Executive POV, Canon hit the ball out of the park with R5 and R6 there is no question about it. They managed me to be wanting 2 Of those and at least 3 lenses. that’s what makes Canon a great company: delivering products that are relevant and highly sought after by photographers.


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## wyotex43n (Feb 25, 2020)

Change of subject but has there been anymore rumors on the APC. R7? The canon rumors newsletter mentioned it but I see nothing on the site/


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## mpmark (Feb 25, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> And who is “Everyone”? There is no such a thing as unified camera users or photographers collective or universal opinion. Interesting though.
> From an acting Enterprise Sales Executive POV, Canon hit the ball out of the park with R5 and R6 there is no question about it. They managed me to be wanting 2 Of those and at least 3 lenses. that’s what makes Canon a great company: delivering products that are relevant and highly sought after by photographers.



its a joke, time to relax my friend and not be so serious.


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## slclick (Feb 25, 2020)

mpmark said:


> its a joke, time to relax my friend and not be so serious.


Oh it's that time again? You got it!


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## dwarven (Feb 25, 2020)

Adelino said:


> The sooner it comes out the sooner I can buy a refurbished one. Or maybe the 6 will be something for me.



What are the chances the R6 uses the 1DX Mark III sensor?


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## Trey T (Feb 25, 2020)

mpmark said:


> Think how everyone is taking this R5 excitment


That's exactly vast majority of people on here are doing, senseless. Many made implications that it will make the 1DXiii obsolete in July 2020. I hope they're right


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## scyrene (Feb 25, 2020)

dwarven said:


> What are the chances the R6 uses the 1DX Mark III sensor?



I think it's a reasonable suggestion fwiw.


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## SteB1 (Feb 26, 2020)

Yasko said:


> Spoiler: There will be no summer olympics due to CoVid-19 out reak I fear.


I agree. I said that last week on this thread. Currently there is only talk about it. However, it is absolutely certain COVID-19 will be far more widespread by the time of the Olympics and it is very difficult to see how you could have huge amounts of people flying from all over the world and coming into close contact, then flying back and spreading whatever they picked up. It would be the perfect means of accelerating global infection. I cannot see it happening in any circumstances.


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## SteB1 (Feb 26, 2020)

dwarven said:


> What are the chances the R6 uses the 1DX Mark III sensor?


Given Canon's long standing business model of using sensors across as many lines as possible to reduce production costs I would have thought it highly likely. The only way it wouldn't be would be if the 1D mkIII sensor was extremely expensive to produce and this cost was not going to be brought down much by even bigger production runs.


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## Kit. (Feb 26, 2020)

SteB1 said:


> I agree. I said that last week on this thread. Currently there is only talk about it. However, it is absolutely certain COVID-19 will be far more widespread by the time of the Olympics and it is very difficult to see how you could have huge amounts of people flying from all over the world and coming into close contact, then flying back and spreading whatever they picked up. It would be the perfect means of accelerating global infection. I cannot see it happening in any circumstances.


I'd say by that time your chances to get COVID-19 visiting the Olympics will not be much higher than your chances to get COVID-19 visiting your local supermarket.


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## SteB1 (Feb 26, 2020)

Kit. said:


> I'd say by that time your chances to get COVID-19 visiting the Olympics will not be much higher than your chances to get COVID-19 visiting your local supermarket.


Perhaps on an individual level. However, as regards the spread of the disease, what more effective means would there be to spread it to every country in the world.


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## koenkooi (Feb 26, 2020)

SteB1 said:


> I agree. I said that last week on this thread. Currently there is only talk about it. However, it is absolutely certain COVID-19 will be far more widespread by the time of the Olympics and it is very difficult to see how you could have huge amounts of people flying from all over the world and coming into close contact, then flying back and spreading whatever they picked up. It would be the perfect means of accelerating global infection. I cannot see it happening in any circumstances.



Don't underestimate the effect or national pride, corporate greed and magical thinking.


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## Kit. (Feb 26, 2020)

SteB1 said:


> Perhaps on an individual level. However, as regards the spread of the disease, what more effective means would there be to spread it to every country in the world.


It's half a year from now. By that time, it will already be in every country in the world. The Olympics would add nothing to it.


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## SteB1 (Feb 26, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Don't underestimate the effect or national pride, corporate greed and magical thinking.


I don't.


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## Trey T (Feb 26, 2020)

SteB1 said:


> I agree. I said that last week on this thread. Currently there is only talk about it. However, it is absolutely certain COVID-19 will be far more widespread by the time of the Olympics and it is very difficult to see how you could have huge amounts of people flying from all over the world and coming into close contact, then flying back and spreading whatever they picked up. It would be the perfect means of accelerating global infection. I cannot see it happening in any circumstances.


Wait what?!? Can you provide the data and evident with the timeline you’re speaking of?


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 26, 2020)

Trey T said:


> Wait what?!? Can you provide the data and evident with the timeline you’re speaking of?











Fears of coronavirus pandemic spreading Olympic unease


Fears that the new coronavirus outbreak is on the verge of becoming a global pandemic have stoked concerns about the Tokyo Games and while the International Olympic Committee says there is no "Plan B" doubts remain the event will go ahead as planned.




www.reuters.com


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## David_E (Feb 26, 2020)

And if a coronavirus pandemic forces cancellation of the Olympics? That would be a disaster in many ways, including the financial hit that Canon and others (Sony α9 II, e.g.) would suffer. The photography industry also stands to lose greatly from the decline in tourism in the 2020 northern-hemisphere summer.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 26, 2020)

Pretty much, yeah. Why do you think the stock market tanked 7% over the last two days?


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## Michael Clark (Feb 26, 2020)

yeahright said:


> I must confess I haven't read through all 15 pages of this thread, so I don't know if that has been brought up yet in the discussion about EVF lag, and I don't know the actual numbers (maybe someone can help out):
> Isn't the additional time required to mechanically lift the mirror after pressing the shutter release a much higher disadvantage of the DSLR than the viewfinder lag in mirrorless? After all, the time that passes from when the action happens to when the image is starting to be recorded is reaction time + mirror up in a DSLR, and viewfinder lag + reaction time in a DSLM



It's a "six one way and less than half a dozen the other" situation. The non existent mirror does not need to move out of the way, but the shutter that is open in order to allow the sensor to provide a video feed to the EVF must close. Shutters in high end cameras are typically faster than mirror mechanisms, but there is still an appreciable amount of lag while the camera resets a shutter curtain and confirms it before the "fire" command is given. Shutters are faster than electronic readout, which makes rolling shutter an issue with not using a mechanical shutter. As always, the gap is slowly narrowing between shutter transit times and full sensor readout times.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 26, 2020)

SteB1 said:


> Given Canon's long standing business model of using sensors across as many lines as possible to reduce production costs I would have thought it highly likely. The only way it wouldn't be would be if the 1D mkIII sensor was extremely expensive to produce and this cost was not going to be brought down much by even bigger production runs.



Historically Canon has never used a 1-series sensor on any non 1-series camera.

They have reused sensors from older high end APS-C cameras on newer low end APS-C models, and of course they used the 5D Mark IV sensor on the EOS R and the 6D Mark II sensor on the EOS RP. But other than those exceptions the first two R models, Canon has never reused any FF sensor on another model.

Having said that, I think contraction of the ILC camera market has probably forced Canon to rethink their historical reluctance to reuse FF sensors.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 26, 2020)

SteB1 said:


> Perhaps on an individual level. However, as regards the spread of the disease, what more effective means would there be to spread it to every country in the world.



What increased danger would there be in terms of increasing the global reach of the virus if it has already spread to every country before the start of the Olympics?

I think you've got it exactly backwards.

Those attending the Olympics would increase their individual risk because they'll be coming into contact with many more people than they otherwise would. So would anyone attending a college football game in the U.S. or a professional soccer match in Europe.

But if the virus has already spread to every country, then there would be no increased danger of spreading it to areas that hadn't already been affected. That's because there would be no such areas left.


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## SteB1 (Mar 1, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> What increased danger would there be in terms of increasing the global reach of the virus if it has already spread to every country before the start of the Olympics?
> 
> I think you've got it exactly backwards.
> 
> ...


It's very simple. Even if it has spread to ever continent but Antarctica, and many individual countries around the world, the strategy of each of those countries is, and will still be containment i.e. containing the virus to certain areas or regions of that country in the events of an outbreak, or to the limited amount of people infected. Bringing lots of people together, then putting them together with people from other countries at the Olympics, would be the surest way of undermining that strategy.

Only today it was reported that there were 2 cases of reverse infection, where 2 Chinese nationals returning from Iran had apparently been infected with COVID-19 in Iran.

Anyway, this is all moot. Many European countries are already starting to ban larger gatherings of people, cancel sporting events etc. So it is very unlikely they will be allowing their people from all over their country to attend a potentially huge cross-contamination event in another country.


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