# EOS-M And EFM22mm Low Light and Portability?



## casperl (Feb 16, 2015)

Hello All:

I use a Canon 70D and I pretty much bring it with me everywhere. Usually with a Sigma 30mm Art prime on it and maybe one or maximum two lens with me in the bag depend on what I am planning to shoot. I travel a lot so not planning to upgrade to FF in the near future. I don't mind carry this setup with me all the time since it is still relatively light weight in a small bag.

However, there are just times when I don't want to bring an extra bag. This usually means night out with friends at restaurants, bar...etc. Which means low light indoors. I used to use a S100 for these but after getting used to the IQ of my 70D I am certainly looking for alternative now. 

I would like to stay with sensor bigger than 4/3, so that means no RX100/GX7. So far I have looked at Ricoh GR, smaller 4/3 body and M. So I want to know people's experience with M and the 22mm pancake. I know it is not going to fit in a pocket but if anyone use this setup as dedicated indoor/low light shooter?

For me the pro for EOS-M
- No longer need to bring a wide prime for my 70D, and I don't even need to switch lens when I need wider shot. Just take out the M.
- 22mm lens is a perfect 35mm and F2 is nice.
- Can use the adaptor for my other lens, not critical for me at the moment.
- APS-C size (when compare to 4/3)

Cons:
- Much bigger than Ricoh GR, bigger than most 4/3.
- Other than the 22mm, the rest of the lens line up are relatively big.

Wonder if anybody had similar dilemma or any comments regards this. Thanks.


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## smozes (Feb 17, 2015)

A year ago I had a reunion with childhood friends in a dim lit bar. The M with the 22 gave me priceless photos of the occasion. I also took a few photos with my iPhone and they were all terrible, grainy and washed out with people blinded by the flash, no one else even thought to try taking photos in that light, they loved the photos I got. Actually, the waitress took most of them, in full auto without flash. Piece of cake.

I probably wouldn't have brought a DSLR, it would've been too awkward in a social situation, which would've meant terrible iPhone photos. I'm frustrated with the slowness of the camera, but it's those occasions for which there are no alternatives that make me keep using it. It's also fantastic for family gatherings for the same reasons.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 17, 2015)

I like the M a lot.

Here is a grab shot at 2,000 or something iso. Take your time to set it up how it works best for your uses and it is a great little camera.


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## vjlex (Feb 17, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> I like the M a lot.
> 
> Here is a grab shot at 2,000 or something iso. Take your time to set it up how it works best for your uses and it is a great little camera.



Excellent image!


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## bf (Feb 17, 2015)

> For me the pro for EOS-M
> - APS-C size (when compare to 4/3)
> ...
> 
> ...



It's not a dilemma.You just need to compromise between the sensor size and the system size. The larger the sensor the larger are the lenses.


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## casperl (Feb 17, 2015)

Thank you all for the reply and nice photo!

As for the dilemma it is for system size vs sensor size. Since I prefer bigger sensor for low light and able to separate subject from background, but if the M with 22mm is not that portable then it defeats my purpose. I could just bring my 70D. I did bring my 70D to some of the occasion and it was indeed a bit awkward when I whip it out from my bag. It was almost a conversation stopper and everybody just look at you.

4/3 system with the 2x crop factor dof control is not as well especially at ~35mm equivalent focal length. GR is excellent in term of portability and large sensor, but the ~28mm equivalent focal length also doesn't give ideal dof control. If it is GR size with 35mm equivalent length and brighter than f2.8 just take my money haha, but obviously I need to take compromise...

So if people think M with 22mm is quite portable that will be my choice. Will try to pick up a M2 since it is slightly smaller and faster than M1, and no need for M3 since it is not going to be my primary camera.


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## Vivid Color (Feb 17, 2015)

If you wear a jacket or blazer when you're going out for the night with friends, the M with a 22 lens will certainly fit into a jacket or blazer pocket.


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## bf (Feb 17, 2015)

> So if people think M with 22mm is quite portable that will be my choice. Will try to pick up a M2 since it is slightly smaller and faster than M1, and no need for M3 since it is not going to be my primary camera.



I can put M+22mm in my jacket pocket. I think it's considerably smaller than any DSLR. 
If you don't like 4/3s, then you have no choice but M or NEX lines. Fujis are larger and X100 is so expensive.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 17, 2015)

I am on the fence with the size of the M plus 22, but the truth is if I want nice pictures I haven't found anything smaller that will come close, and the price is right. It is much smaller than even an SLi http://camerasize.com/compare/#351,448 . Besides, I always have my phone and if it the kind of thing I really don't care about other than a record type image the phone is plenty good enough.

I got the M to do things like the image I posted, maybe not fantastic images but they are good enough quality if I want to do something with them, the fact that it seamlessly integrates with all my other gear is the icing on the cake, the M with the 15mm fisheye is great fun!


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## casperl (Feb 17, 2015)

Thanks guys! I will try to pick a M2 up on my next trip to Asia then


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2015)

I pick up the EOS_M (1) with the 22mm as a point and shoot replacement( it is small enough to be put into a windbreaker or even a dress pant pocket. At the time, a kit is being sold with the 18-55 lens and the 90Ex for $150 extra. So I brought the whole kit. I took it to Turkey as my only camera for a 11 day land tour last October. I like it a lot. After I am back I brought the 11-22mm also. If you are a pixel peeper. It is good up to ISO800. If you look at the picture on a 22" computer screen you should be able to use ISO3200, if you are not too picky. The above two cases are assumed that you do not do any post processing and use the standard noise reduction in the camera. Since the M3 is out, you might as well get the M3.


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## KateH (Feb 18, 2015)

The EOS M with 22mm is really an excellent kit. As noted, small enough to fit in a purse or large-ish jacket pocket and IQ is FANTASTIC for the size. For casual shots the touchscreen interface is lovely- just like a smartphone, tap where you want the camera to focus & meter, and it does the rest. For stills the slow AF hasn't generally been problem for me unless I'm shooting moving subjects or in REALLY low-light (like 1/60th at f/2 and 6400+) And the 22mm f/2 is such a winner that you won't want another lens, even for tripod daytime shots. Crazy sharp at all apertures and pleasant bokeh.

Samples attached (processed in Lightroom 5.6)

Cat is ISO 1000, very clean

Old building is ISO 1600- the noise in the right side of the image is due to the shadows being pushed up at least a stop. Maybe I over-did it.

Crowd is ISO 12800- worst-case scenario; underexposed and shutter speed too low (&@%! bar lighting!)

Singer is ISO 12800 - best-case scenario; perfectly exposed and shadows pulled down slightly to lower noise.

I can't find any ISO 3200-6400 samples with this lens, but I do have some with other lenses on my M if ppl are interested.

My experience with this sensor is that it's noise level is highly sensitive to exposure- more so than my X-E1. I've had ISO 200 images in low-light that are noisy as heck, and ISO 3200+ images that look much cleaner than I expected. Just overexpose as much as possible without mangling your highlights or dropping shutter speed too low, and you'll be okay.


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## casperl (Feb 18, 2015)

Those are some great photo! I don't mind the noise that much in those situation. It gives a different kind of touch to the photo when it is well controlled. Can't wait for my next trip to pick one up. I am thinking more of M2 over M3 because M3 seems slightly bigger (I think the picture in camerasize.com is wrong for M3...hopefully otherwise that is ridiculously big lol) and price will probably drop after M3 comes out. We will see once I get hand on on them ;D


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## bainsybike (Feb 18, 2015)

casperl said:


> I think the picture in camerasize.com is wrong for M3...hopefully otherwise that is ridiculously big lol



It is, but if you click the link to cameras with lenses, it comes out right: http://camerasize.com/compact/#351,496,599,ha,f


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## Luds34 (Mar 2, 2015)

Vivid Color said:


> If you wear a jacket or blazer when you're going out for the night with friends, the M with a 22 lens will certainly fit into a jacket or blazer pocket.



Absolutely. I have a wool winter jacket and the M + 22 fits nicely in the inside jacket pockets. The blazers are a bit hit or mis. It definitely fits, but the M is surprisingly heavy for it's size so it tend to tug down on the some jackets/blazers a bit and can look a bit "funny".


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## smozes (Mar 2, 2015)

I use the inconspicuous LowePro Dash20 mounted on my belt. The M+22 fit just fine, it's reasonably quick to pull it out and put back.


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## Rocky (Mar 2, 2015)

smozes said:


> I use the inconspicuous LowePro Dash20 mounted on my belt. The M+22 fit just fine, it's reasonably quick to pull it out and put back.


The most inconspicuous way is to just put it in the pocket without any case.


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## mangobutter (Mar 3, 2015)

It works in low light, but remember f/2 on this kind of camera is really f3.2-3.4. Still better than most crop lenses and certainly better than the kit. At night with street lights or indoors in a dim restaurant you'll find the camera is often at 6400 even wide open at f/2. This is like 12,800 iso on full frame or so. So it's nice for posting FB photos, but don't expect super spectacular. I'll post some examples later. In the day time the lens is just fine. though even stopped down to f/8, tons of purple fringing. Watch high contrast scenes


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## privatebydesign (Mar 3, 2015)

mangobutter said:


> It works in low light, but remember f/2 on this kind of camera is really f3.2-3.4. Still better than most crop lenses and certainly better than the kit. At night with street lights or indoors in a dim restaurant you'll find the camera is often at 6400 even wide open at f/2. This is like 12,800 iso on full frame or so. So it's nice for posting FB photos, but don't expect super spectacular. I'll post some examples later. In the day time the lens is just fine. though even stopped down to f/8, tons of purple fringing. Watch high contrast scenes



Not true, it is an f2 as far as light gathering goes, it gives greater dof than a ff camera taken from the same spot with a different lens to achieve the same framing, but that is kinda moot. It is a true 22mm f2.0.

That is true, iso has a crop factor, for the 1.6 crop it is around 1.3 stops, so if you want the same noise levels you need to shoot your crop camera 1.3 stops lower iso to match a comparable tech. But the truth is nobody shooting an EOS-M in low light is serously thinking of making big prints with it. If you would print a 21" x 14" print with a ff at 12,800 iso then you would have the same noise in a 14" x 8" print from the M.


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## Rocky (Mar 3, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> mangobutter said:
> 
> 
> > It works in low light, but remember f/2 on this kind of camera is really f3.2-3.4. Still better than most crop lenses and certainly better than the kit. At night with street lights or indoors in a dim restaurant you'll find the camera is often at 6400 even wide open at f/2. This is like 12,800 iso on full frame or so. So it's nice for posting FB photos, but don't expect super spectacular. I'll post some examples later. In the day time the lens is just fine. though even stopped down to f/8, tons of purple fringing. Watch high contrast scenes
> ...


Well said, +100


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## EchoLocation (Mar 3, 2015)

I love the eos-m and 22mm lens I have. although lately I have been using the 11-22 lens exclusively. I pretty much only use it for daytime use, or when I don't want to carry my Sony a7.
I bought a 3 dollar cheapo case in china and don't worry about it. it was only 300 bucks to begin with, so I didn't want to buy a super expensive case.
The eos-m sucks at low light. I guess it's about as good as my 550D(t2i) that I sold a few years ago. At nights, I pretty much always leave my M at home and just bring out the a7.
It is terrible at anything over iSO 1600, and ISO 1600 is barely acceptable(IMO.) If you aren't too picky, you might feel a little different.


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## Rocky (Mar 3, 2015)

EchoLocation said:


> I love the eos-m and 22mm lens I have. although lately I have been using the 11-22 lens exclusively. I pretty much only use it for daytime use, or when I don't want to carry my Sony a7.
> I bought a 3 dollar cheapo case in china and don't worry about it. it was only 300 bucks to begin with, so I didn't want to buy a super expensive case.
> The eos-m sucks at low light. I guess it's about as good as my 550D(t2i) that I sold a few years ago. At nights, I pretty much always leave my M at home and just bring out the a7.
> It is terrible at anything over iSO 1600, and ISO 1600 is barely acceptable(IMO.) If you aren't too picky, you might feel a little different.


The 11-22mm is not for low light. The 22mm (f 2.0) is okay for low light. Too bad that it does not have IS.


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## Ivan Muller (Mar 3, 2015)

I shot some very high iso images with the Eos M and a variety of lenses here (up to 6400iso):

http://thelazytravelphotographer.blogspot.com/2013/05/eos-m-reviewhigh-iso-noise-tests.html


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## Aichbus (Mar 3, 2015)

Well, the M with the 22 mm is particularly suited for low light and portability. The picture attached wouldn't exist if the EOS-M weren't so portable. I also own a 6D with 2/35 IS and Sigma 1.4/50 Art, which both would have been even better for low light ... but I don't have them with me all the time, unlike the M with the 22 mm.

And night shots aren't particularly easy with tiny cameras, the M and the 22 mm did a great job. ISO 800, f/2, 1/50 s.

Plus: The M with the 22 is a real bargain.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 3, 2015)

My GiX works well in low light (It doesn't compete with FF), and has a Zoom that handles wider angles than the 22mm. The lens retracts to make it reasonably small, and AF is quite fast for a large sensor camera.

I don't claim its better than a "M", but it is a option to consider if you need a zoom that can do wide angles.


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## spacetimeroger (Mar 4, 2015)

The M w/22mm f/2 is a great little camera that can do well in low-light. Like many others have said, it makes a lot of sense now with the price drop and as a 2nd/travel camera. It doesn't have all that it takes to be a #1 camera for most people, but if you are familiar with the Canon system and already have a DSLR I think it makes a lot of sense, and it's definitely what I'd reach for when wanting something that I know can offer solid performance (basically as good or better than a 7D a lot of the time) in a small package, it's a lot of camera for the money and the 22mm f/2 is really fun and awesome optically. I've been totally happy up to about ISO 3200 but try not to push it much past 2000ish.


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## Rocky (Mar 4, 2015)

f 2.8, 0.3 sec, ISO1600. AF and hand held. That should be low light enough.


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## bainsybike (Mar 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> f 2.8, 0.3 sec, ISO1600. AF and hand held. That should be low light enough.



Istanbul?


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## noncho (Mar 4, 2015)

For me portability mean to be good for a places where DSLR is not appropriate. Like concerts:


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## EchoLocation (Mar 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> EchoLocation said:
> 
> 
> > I love the eos-m and 22mm lens I have. although lately I have been using the 11-22 lens exclusively. I pretty much only use it for daytime use, or when I don't want to carry my Sony a7.
> ...


yeah, I'm aware of that. That's why I said I pretty much only use it for daytime use. At night, I greatly prefer my a7, it's really no contest.
However, the IS on the 11-22 is superb, and thus I haven't taken it off my camera in ages. In low light, the IS makes it pretty capable, although the noise from the M is rather distracting on large prints. I would highly recommend the 11-22, especially for the price I paid($375 on Amazon.cn.)


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## Cory (Mar 4, 2015)

I really like the 90EX flash carried in this attached to my Dashpoint 20 case:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/836241-REG/BlackRapid_RMJ_3BB_Joey_3_Large_Pocket.html


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## Rocky (Mar 4, 2015)

bainsybike said:


> Rocky said:
> 
> 
> > f 2.8, 0.3 sec, ISO1600. AF and hand held. That should be low light enough.
> ...


You are right.


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## casperl (Mar 4, 2015)

I just pulled the trigger.... : I guess with M3 coming out the price for M2 on ebay seems to be coming down a bit. I am getting a M2 with 22mm + 90EX + Canon Adaptor ring for 495 USD. There is an option for 30 dollar extra to have the 18-55mm as well but I am pretty sure that lens will just be gathering dust at a corner and increase the bulk of the package so didn't get it. It is even cheaper than some of the Asian website I have been looking through these days!

Free shipping too! Now I just wish custom will be easy one me. Can't wait for it to arrive ;D


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## SPG (Mar 10, 2015)

If anyone's heading to Japan you should consider picking up an M2 there. With the exchange rate and no tax charged to foreign visitors, I just picked up an M2, 22mm, 18-55mm, EF adaptor, and flash kit for $470 at Yodobashi Camera. It was kind of an impulse purchase, but one I'm enjoying!


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## casperl (Mar 18, 2015)

I just received my M2 from Japan today with the 22mm. Only did a few quick snapshots at home and the AF seems to be fine for me. Still need to get used to the lack of button but the touch screen is pretty good. The 22mm lens is awesome. I am glad I didn't wait for the M3 because as a secondary/casual body I don't think I want one any bigger than this.


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## ashmadux (Apr 10, 2015)

casperl said:


> Thank you all for the reply and nice photo!
> 
> As for the dilemma it is for system size vs sensor size. Since I prefer bigger sensor for low light and able to separate subject from background, but if the M with 22mm is not that portable then it defeats my purpose. I could just bring my 70D. I did bring my 70D to some of the occasion and it was indeed a bit awkward when I whip it out from my bag. It was almost a conversation stopper and everybody just look at you.
> 
> ...



I think this can help you decide - or others wondering about M portability. 

The M1 w/22f2 + 90ex can fit in the lil thinktank mirrorless mover 5. Thats a lil bag i can take anywhere. Behind it is the mirrorless mover 20 that can hold:


M1 w/22f2 + 1 large EF lens+ 90 ex
M1+10-22 + 22f2 or 40mm2.8 pancake + 90 ex


The M1 here also has the fotodiox all metal grip.

hope it helps


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 11, 2015)

ashmadux said:


> Behind it is the mirrorless mover 20 that can hold:
> 
> M1+10-22 + 22f2 or 40mm2.8 pancake + 90 ex



The EF-M lenses pack better... 

In my ThinkTank Mirrorless Mover 20: the EOS M with M11-22 mounted, M18-55, M22/2, 270EX II, 52mm B+W CPL, and spare batteries for camera and flash.


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## ashmadux (Apr 12, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> ashmadux said:
> 
> 
> > Behind it is the mirrorless mover 20 that can hold:
> ...




All i can say it...WOW. Touche 

I literally bought that bag mainly to carry the m + 10-22 with adapter and hood. After seeing this pic, the storage potential is EPIC


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