# Lightroom 6, The Cloud, and Mileage Limits on Leases



## Skirball (Jun 10, 2014)

I've been holding off upgrading from LR4 since LR6 should be just around the corner. But now that it is there's more buzz about Adobe moving LR to part of their cloud service and not offer a standalone product. I know that nobody knows if they will do that or not, but assuming they do, I'm wondering if I'll still be able to grab a LR5 for cheap ($80 upgrade) or will the LR5 price jump up? I know nobody knows the answer to that either, but this is CR, where we endlessly discuss corporate decisions that we know nothing about. What say ye?


----------



## AcutancePhotography (Jun 10, 2014)

It all depends on your specific needs.

If LR4 does what you need it to do, then stick with it.
However, if LR4 no longer does what you need and LR5 does, then upgrade to LR5

But don't upgrade just for the sake of upgrading. There are only a few things I can do on LR5 that I could not do on LR4. If those few differences are not important to you, don't upgrade. If the differences are important to you, upgrade.


----------



## Skirball (Jun 10, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> It all depends on your specific needs.
> 
> If LR4 does what you need it to do, then stick with it.
> However, if LR4 no longer does what you need and LR5 does, then upgrade to LR5
> ...



I'm well aware of the differences between LR4 and LR5. While I could take advantage of the additions I've been doing just fine using DxO and PS for perspective control and touchup. It'd be nice to be able to do those within LR, but it's not the end of the world to jump around to different programs. I just assumed I'd wait until LR6 comes out, adds a few more features, and I upgrade getting the perspective and spot touchup with it.

But that has little to do with my point. If LR5 is the last standalone version then I'd gladly pay the $80 since it'll be the last version of LR I use and will probably be using it for some time. I'm worried that if I wait until LR6 comes out, and it turns out to be cloud only, that the $80 upgrade for LR5 will no longer be an option. I was just curious what people thought.


----------



## mackguyver (Jun 10, 2014)

Adobe is/was offering a cheaper CC version for photographers with PS & LR. Also, just as an FYI from a longtime Adobe/Macromedia (RIP Freehand) user, those of us paying for our own licenses always skipped versions as Adobe rarely updated enough items between releases to justify the expense. I'm still mad about the CC, but I've mellowed a bit as they are actually adding features and haven't raised the price (yet).


----------



## Skirball (Jun 10, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> Adobe is/was offering a cheaper CC version for photographers with PS & LR. Also, just as an FYI from a longtime Adobe/Macromedia (RIP Freehand) user, those of us paying for our own licenses always skipped versions as Adobe rarely updated enough items between releases to justify the expense. I'm still mad about the CC, but I've mellowed a bit as they are actually adding features and haven't raised the price (yet).



Yes, I've always skipped. I went from early versions to a student copy of 6.0 to CS2 to CS6. The newer additions are nice, but an experienced PS user can usually get the results he wants with the old tools. Maybe not major additions like liquify and puppet warp, but the bulk majority anyway.

I've warmed up to CC a bit, and I'm real tempted by that $10 monthly option, even though I just bought CS6 less than a year ago. But I'm having a really hard time convincing myself that it's a safe move to the cloud for Lightroom. It's one thing to not have the ability to use a particular editing program, but Lightroom is more than an editor, it's my entire file management system. All my edits, organizations, tags, albums, picks, etc. Without access to Lightroom that’s all gone. And Adobe is making no commitment what that access is going to cost you in the future. It might not be as concerning for full-time pros, but us part-timers and hobbyists don’t have as much solidarity in the system.

So let’s say 5 years from now something happens in my life and I'm no longer actively into photography. Family illness, work, family obligations, whatever. Again, for the non full-time pro, it’s much more of a possibility. Lets also say it's now $30 a month for access. $360/year is a decent chunk of change for something I don't use. It's no big deal to not have access to Photoshop. If I want to 'chop again, I sign up. But I no longer have access to my file system? The edits I've made? The catalog that I've spent the last 10 years or building will no longer be backwards compatible with CS4. The only way I can access all the work I’ve done is to keep paying Adobe. At that point I don't need new features, I'm fine with an old version, but I need something that can read my file system and my edits. All I have to speak for my photography the last 5 years are anything I exported, and folders and folders full of unedited, unorganized RAW images.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 10, 2014)

^^ Can't you export sidecar xml files to preserve your work?


----------



## mackguyver (Jun 10, 2014)

3kramd5 said:


> ^^ Can't you export sidecar xml files to preserve your work?


Yes, which I do, and I always export 16-bit TIFFs of my final edits as well. Also, I still have my CS5 - I skipped CS6  - apps installed, just in case.


----------



## Skirball (Jun 10, 2014)

3kramd5 said:


> ^^ Can't you export sidecar xml files to preserve your work?



Are all the localized edits stored in the .xml files? I thought that was just the metadata, I thought the actual edits were in the LR catalog. 

So can another editor like Capture One read the .xml files and apply the same edits? It seems like many of the localized edits would be proprietary to Lightroom.


----------



## Skirball (Jun 11, 2014)

dilbert said:


> If you look around the Internet then you will find various comments and statements from Adobe that there are currently no plans to make LR a CC only product.
> 
> If you want to look at what Adobe's prices have done in the past with respect to price then that would be a good indicator of what they will do in the future.
> 
> Of course there is always free products to use on Linux such as Dark Table.



Yes, I know what they said about their plans. And no offense to Adobe, but that doesn't amount mean anything whatsoever to me. All companies big and small have plans, and many intend to act with their customers best interest in mind, but that doesn't mean they always do. They're a business, and ultimately all businesses come down to the bottom line. If they cared about me saving money they would continue to sell standalone product. 

I have no problem paying for software, such as Capture One. It's this leasing of software that I'm hesitant about.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 11, 2014)

Skirball said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > ^^ Can't you export sidecar xml files to preserve your work?
> ...


The reason for the sidecar files is to store the edit information. However, it only works with Adobe, so you can't necessarily take them to a different software.
You do not need the catalog if you have the sidecar file. This is handy for preventing loss of edits in the event that the catalog gets clobbered and you do not have a backup.

There will be a announcement on June 18.

As to prices, The price for old Photoshop versions went sky high when they stopped selling them. Lightroom is a lot more prevalent, so I doubt if prices will go thru the roof, but they will increase.

I have photoshop and lightroom CC subscriptions, but also have LR 5 and Photoshop CS5

The lack of a Lightroom 6 beta has a lot of people worried.


----------



## dendowling (Jun 11, 2014)

Skirball said:


> All my edits, organizations, tags, albums, picks, etc. Without access to Lightroom that’s all gone.
> ...
> If I want to 'chop again, I sign up. But I no longer have access to my file system? The edits I've made? The catalog that I've spent the last 10 years or building will no longer be backwards compatible with CS4. The only way I can access all the work I’ve done is to keep paying Adobe. At that point I don't need new features, I'm fine with an old version, but I need something that can read my file system and my edits. All I have to speak for my photography the last 5 years are anything I exported, and folders and folders full of unedited, unorganized RAW images.


Even without a photo app you won't be completely devoid of organization and tags. 

As others mentioned you should have the XMP option turned on in LR so all edits and metadata are saved to XMP sidecars. Also, whenever you export files you should always include all metadata so, your exif, tags and ratings will be embedded in your tif files. 

XMPs are plain text files so, any computer will find the keyword tags you've added to photos. 

Also, EXIF info can be read by most photo apps. So, you will always have the photo dates, camera, lens, etc info. And, if you have tagged GPS on your photos, that will show up in other apps. 

Also, when you import photos to LR you are choosing some form of organizing your photos into folders on your computer. You can also use LR to reorganize photos into other folders on your computer which will remain even without LR. 

If you have collections in LR that you want to maintain you can also add keywords that will help you recreate collections or albums elsewhere. Say you have a Yosemite Portofolio collection in LR. Select all photos in that collection and add a keyword like "collectionYosemitePortofolio". Even without LR you'll still be able to find images for that group. 

As for the development settings, yeah, that is limited to Adobe products. So, you would likely need another Adobe app to reuse your development adjustments on the RAW images. But, you don't need to keep a continuous subscription to CC. You could get the last version of LR5 that works without a subscription and just work with that indefinitely. Or, cancel your subscription the start it up again temporarily when you need it in the future. Adobe is pretty good about making sure the latest software will still open old files and catalogs that are many years old. Just make sure you save your LR catalogs. 

And, of course, you can always export important images to tiff if you really want to preserve your development work. 

Another option to maintain your organizing is to open your collections in the Print mode and set up a proof sheet layout and save as PDFs. 

Also, paying Adobe is not the only option. There are community/commercial photo labs, schools, friends, etc that will let you use their computers - another way to work on a few pics, do some conversion or make prints without having to sign up on CC again.


----------



## Skirball (Jun 11, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Skirball said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



Yeah, that's what I assumed about the side-cars, being Adobe specific. But that's what information I was looking for - historical prices. I guessed they'd probably shoot up. Which is why I bought CS6 when it was announced that it'll be the last box copy. Maybe I'll just pay the $80 for the upgrade and be done with it.

Thanks.


----------



## StoneColdCoffee (Jun 12, 2014)

Just a thought.. but I wonder how many years it will be useful to you? if its 3 to 5, then I guess its a pretty cheap buy. other than that the flip side is what I am about to do. I got in on the cheap CC last year. now my year is up and its either going to be $59/mo. or a whopping huge discount down to $49/mo if you pay for the year in advance. so along side your useful life of product, ill be paying $600/year ad infinitum. I suspected the ole "bait-n-switch" when I signed up...now im living the reality. in a way I can see it..but really, nahh its overpriced. 
Does anyone else know of a discount? thru napp or CR or something?


----------



## Logan (Jun 12, 2014)

StoneColdCoffee said:


> Just a thought.. but I wonder how many years it will be useful to you? if its 3 to 5, then I guess its a pretty cheap buy. other than that the flip side is what I am about to do. I got in on the cheap CC last year. now my year is up and its either going to be $59/mo. or a whopping huge discount down to $49/mo if you pay for the year in advance. so along side your useful life of product, ill be paying $600/year ad infinitum. I suspected the ole "bait-n-switch" when I signed up...now im living the reality. in a way I can see it..but really, nahh its overpriced.
> Does anyone else know of a discount? thru napp or CR or something?



really? i kind of find that hard to believe since they are still offering it for 9.99 or whatever. can you just sign up again with a different email at the 9.99? subscription pricing models might be new to photographers but in other industries they are pretty standard, even for consumer software like games. bait and switch price hikes are pretty unheard of, even when you are locked in to millions of dollars of hardware running 6 figure software. im not sure it works in practice, people would just move to another product and the number of subscriptions lost would overshadow the price hike.

edit - 49.99 is for the complete suite of applications, not just PS and lightroom. it wouldn't let me renew early but they explicitly state that you can create a second account to subscribe to the same product twice at the same time. the photography version isn't visible in the black screen interface, you have to find the white screen list view of the plans, try signing in first.

edit 2 - I think you may be mistaken, i have been subscribed at 9.99 for 19 months, it automatically renewed for me at the same price.


----------



## unfocused (Jun 12, 2014)

Skirball said:


> So let’s say 5 years from now something happens in my life and I'm no longer actively into photography. Family illness, work, family obligations, whatever. . .But I no longer have access to my file system? The edits I've made? The catalog that I've spent the last 10 years or building will no longer be backwards compatible with CS4. The only way I can access all the work I’ve done is to keep paying Adobe. At that point I don't need new features, I'm fine with an old version, but I need something that can read my file system and my edits. All I have to speak for my photography the last 5 years are anything I exported, and folders and folders full of unedited, unorganized RAW images.



I don't understand this. What would block your access to your file system? More importantly, what would block your access to your files. They are right there on your computer, they haven't gone anywhere.

Are you saying that because they have been edited in CC 5 or something like that, you figure that you can't open them with an old CS4? Well, that's always a risk, whether you've got a subscription service or buying a license. 

If you're talking PSD files, make sure the maximize compatibility box is checked so the files are backward compatible. 

If you are talking DNG, that's an open format available to anyone. In fact, that's why Adobe developed DNG. 

If it's a RAW file, well, that has nothing at all to do with Adobe, that's a risk because the camera manufacturers insist on having their own proprietary formats and until they adopt a universal standard, there is no guarantee that any program will always be able to open a RAW file. 

Now, it would be pretty crappy and shortsighted of Canon to not make available software that can always open any of their proprietary RAW formats. But, that's something to take up with Canon, not Adobe.

And, by the way, why would anyone completely drop a software program without first saving their files in a universal format? 

And, even if you did that, what would prevent you from signing up to the then-current version of Creative Cloud just long enough to switch over your files to a universal format?

What am I missing here?


----------



## Halfrack (Jun 12, 2014)

Get LR 5 as a boxed product now and you'll be fine. Toss it on a shelf, and it'll last a few years easy - long enough that you'll have this same debate about LR6 / LR7.

You also have that 30 day trial fun if you want to give it a no-risk go. Install today, see what gets announced on the 16th and then decide what you want to do.


----------



## Logan (Jun 12, 2014)

unfocused said:


> Skirball said:
> 
> 
> > So let’s say 5 years from now something happens in my life and I'm no longer actively into photography. Family illness, work, family obligations, whatever. . .But I no longer have access to my file system? The edits I've made? The catalog that I've spent the last 10 years or building will no longer be backwards compatible with CS4. The only way I can access all the work I’ve done is to keep paying Adobe. At that point I don't need new features, I'm fine with an old version, but I need something that can read my file system and my edits. All I have to speak for my photography the last 5 years are anything I exported, and folders and folders full of unedited, unorganized RAW images.
> ...



NAILED IT. And i would add: with the import and sorting tools in lightroom, if your RAW files are unorganized or you havent deleted rejects properly, thats on you, not adobe. (dont tags get written to the meta data?) If you weren't using lightroom you wouldn't have all those "edits", you would have a chaos of layers and files and formats, some of which will be from indy developers that may not be around to support your next camera or computer format. 

Scratching my head yet again at photographers with $x0,000 worth of lenses, lights, cameras, etc, who dont want to pay 10 bucks a month for pretty much everything you need to develop your own pictures, short of actually making the prints, which is easily accomplished in so many various ways. Is post processing and cataloging your photos really that much less important than clicking the shutter? can you get darkroom access and unlimited film for 10 bucks a month? 100 bucks a month? give your heads a shake and think about how lucky you are!


----------



## sparda79 (Jun 12, 2014)

unfocused said:


> Skirball said:
> 
> 
> > So let’s say 5 years from now something happens in my life and I'm no longer actively into photography. Family illness, work, family obligations, whatever. . .But I no longer have access to my file system? The edits I've made? The catalog that I've spent the last 10 years or building will no longer be backwards compatible with CS4. The only way I can access all the work I’ve done is to keep paying Adobe. At that point I don't need new features, I'm fine with an old version, but I need something that can read my file system and my edits. All I have to speak for my photography the last 5 years are anything I exported, and folders and folders full of unedited, unorganized RAW images.
> ...



Ahhh... Now your nickname make sense... ;D



I'm sorry... I can't help it... :-\


----------



## bitm2007 (Jun 13, 2014)

> But now that it is there's more buzz about Adobe moving LR to part of their cloud service



A quote from the software vouchers website is below. 



> [With the surprising lack of the Lightroom 5.5 release candidate that we were all expecting to be released with the Camera Raw 8.5 from a few days ago, we have a strong suspicion that Lightroom 6 will be released at Adobe’s Creative Cloud relaunch/refresh launch event on June 16th (no LR beta expected this time as we have typically seen in previous releases!). Lightroom has become an important part of CC and the popular Photoshop+Lightroom subscription plan. However, based on what we’ve heard from several sources close to Adobe, we have a strong feeling, to our disappointment, that Lightroom 6 will be subscription-only. So if this is true, no upgrade will be available to version 6 unless you decide to pay a monthly fee for it. Adobe’s betting big on subscriptions and investors seem to like it (as seen in the stock price the two years). The new Lightroom for iPad app is also for CC subscribers only so this is probably just a prelude of what’s to come. Lightoom’s competition has dwindled as it appears that their largest competitor to Lightroom, Aperture, won’t be releasing any new versions anytime soon./quote]


----------

