# Is Sony going to beat Canon to the ‘Pro’ mirrorless camera punch?



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 22, 2020)

> A new report from our friend at Photo Rumors has Sony bringing a “pro” mirrorless body in the first quarter of 2021. This would be a huge deal for Canon shooters waiting for an EOS R1, a camera I do think HAS to come from Canon in 2021.
> The ‘pro’ designation on a camera body means it has an integrated grip to house a much bigger battery. It also gives more space inside the camera to add higher end cooling solutions and ergonomics.
> *Rumored Sony Pro Body Specifications:*
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## amorse (Sep 22, 2020)

Wasn't that supposed to be the a9 series? I'm honestly losing track of what exactly a pro body entails. This sounds like an a7RV in a bigger body I guess?


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## goldenhusky (Sep 22, 2020)

I believe Sony has the technology to pull this off but will they do it is another question. If Sony does this hope they get better LCD screen, touch capabilities on par with Canon and more ergonomic body


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## Stig Nygaard (Sep 22, 2020)

If true, I don't see this as an competitor to the kind of camera an R1 is expected to be (ie, a mirrorless 1DX or Nikon D6 equalent).
An 8K camera has to be 39+ megapixels, and customers of 1DX and D6 are *asking* Canon or Nikon to keep it at 20 megapixels.
Also I don't see a typical 1DX user bother even a bit about 8K. It's practical to be able to take some videoclips, but 8K doesn't matter.
Is there are market for something like rumored Sony camera? Maybe, but I don't think it will be very similar to the "inevitable " R1 - whenever it arrives.


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## wockawocka (Sep 22, 2020)

Sony already did this with the A9.


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## DJL329 (Sep 22, 2020)

> Everything about this camera is new
> Price $5.999




Hey, for 6 bucks, I might even try it!


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## AccipiterQ (Sep 22, 2020)

?? I'm confused...the A9 is their answer to the 1-Series....


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## dichterDichter (Sep 22, 2020)

what does "beat" mean? in technology? maybe. There is still a difference in usability or/and ux between those cameras. you can have a long long discussion about tech specs which just change nothing. its loke discussing for example apple and pc.


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## usern4cr (Sep 22, 2020)

A better Sony camera can only increase the fire under Canons' backside, which should make Canon hurry up and come out with their R1 body so they could return the favor!


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## bbasiaga (Sep 22, 2020)

dichterDichter said:


> what does "beat" mean? in technology? maybe. There is still a difference in usability and ux. you can have a long long discussion about tech specs which just change nothing. its loke discussing for example apple and pc.


I read 'beat' as referring to release timing. Sony's will come first. 

I have a hard time with that price point. I don't think it would be that low with those features. 

-Brian


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## Franklyok (Sep 22, 2020)

Finally a competition to R1. 

Thinking wild:
30 FPS electronic shutter
45 mpx
3 ms sensor read out. Allmost GS
QUAD bionz processors. 
No DGO. Something for movie cameras. 

Somebody can continue.


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## masterpix (Sep 22, 2020)

Personally I don't think that any mirrorless can be "PRO" for one main feature of PRO is that you can see the real iamge in the OVF. Any EVF won't give the same "feel" or "speed" of "PRO" camera.


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## Mark3794 (Sep 22, 2020)

So basically they are releasing the R5?


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## Franklyok (Sep 22, 2020)

masterpix said:


> Personally I don't think that any mirrorless can be "PRO" for one main feature of PRO is that you can see the real iamge in the OVF. Any EVF won't give the same "feel" or "speed" of "PRO" camera.


Get rid of your habits.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 22, 2020)

'Pro' body designation means that the grip is integrated and they use much larger batteries.


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## edoorn (Sep 22, 2020)

masterpix said:


> Personally I don't think that any mirrorless can be "PRO" for one main feature of PRO is that you can see the real iamge in the OVF. Any EVF won't give the same "feel" or "speed" of "PRO" camera.



define ‘pro’. My two R5’s are hard at work these days now earning back their investment


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 22, 2020)

edoorn said:


> define ‘pro’. My two R5’s are hard at work these days now earning back their investment



I've ammended the post to explain 'pro', I thought that desigination was clear.


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## jam05 (Sep 22, 2020)

Sony is so lost after Ceo Kaz Harrai left. Forever trying some new scheme to sell their FF sensors. Under Kaz the goal was to "Capture the high end market". After failing in that goal and losing ground to smartphones and Canon in the low end they try to repackage the failure into something else. Same stuff in a smaller package.


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## jam05 (Sep 22, 2020)

Same horrendous user interface, higher price tag


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## privatebydesign (Sep 22, 2020)

I'd argue the 'pro' definition as there were plenty of pro bodies that didn't have integrated grips and with better battery technology I honestly feel they are not 100% required now we are into the umpteenth generation of digital. But I get the point and if you are starting a discussion it makes sense to have a baseline. 

However I think it is hard to argue that Sony haven't already played their interpretation of the 'pro' card in the A9 and the owners I know like the option of big or small just as I did with the 1V/1VHS. I'd happily take an R1 without a grip as a 'pro' body if the optional grip gave me all the additional functionality.


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## AJ (Sep 22, 2020)

Stig Nygaard said:


> Also I don't see a typical 1DX user bother even a bit about 8K. It's practical to be able to take some videoclips, but 8K doesn't matter.


Indeed.


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## Maru (Sep 22, 2020)

i saw lot of news about sony a7iii and a7riii shutter breakdown ... earlier sony tv had reliability issue too..my tv broke back n 2010 exactly n 2yr1mth and sony asked for a repair cost of $800 on a $1800 tv... i left sony on that day...

Canon never had reliability issue as per I understand..reliability is a big deal for many when you are spending your hard earned money ..specially if it goes beyond $1k-$1.5k for people like me...

Canon is still user friendly on body and reliability


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## docsmith (Sep 22, 2020)

Ok

That is nice. Good for Sony. I can see the A9 with better battery life and CFExpress cards. The "no overheating" part cracks me up. Roger had it right, it is a box, if heat is generated in the box, it needs a way to get out of the box or the box will overheat. So, either Sony has a fancy way to minimize the rate at which the heat is generated or they have found a way to get the heat out of the camera. Or, that part of the rumor is BS.


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## edoorn (Sep 22, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> I've ammended the post to explain 'pro', I thought that desigination was clear.



Ok, so basically we’re talking the top tier camera of the whole available line up, right?


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 22, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I'd argue the 'pro' definition as there were plenty of pro bodies that didn't have integrated grips and with better battery technology I honestly feel they are not 100% required now we are into the umpteenth generation of digital. But I get the point and if you are starting a discussion it makes sense to have a baseline.
> 
> However I think it is hard to argue that Sony haven't already played their interpretation of the 'pro' card in the A9 and the owners I know like the option of big or small just as I did with the 1V/1VHS. I'd happily take an R1 without a grip as a 'pro' body if the optional grip gave me all the additional functionality.



The a9 is an ergonomic mess and battery performance is awful. It's not a 'Pro' camera.


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## SilverBox (Sep 22, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The a9 is an ergonomic mess and battery performance is awful. It's not a 'Pro' camera.


You could say that about all the Sony cameras


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## marathonman (Sep 22, 2020)

Wait, I thought this was EOSHD for a minute with that seemingly clickbait title.... 

At this point, with so many great options out there, I'd argue it's less important who is first to market. Given the R5 "drama" it's probably more important for Canon to get this right. This end of the market is probably less swayed by a spec sheet battle too. Having used R5 now for a few months, I'm excited about what Canon could do with R1. They can take their time as far as I'm concerned....


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## privatebydesign (Sep 22, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The a9 is an ergonomic mess and battery performance is awful. It's not a 'Pro' camera.


And yet I know two full time international sports pros who sold their 1DX II’s for A9’s and couldn’t be happier...


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## zim (Sep 22, 2020)

And then there's Nikon, will be interesting to watch how this is played out by those three. Not sure if being first to jump is the best strategy.


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## preppyak (Sep 22, 2020)

Stig Nygaard said:


> Also I don't see a typical 1DX user bother even a bit about 8K. It's practical to be able to take some videoclips, but 8K doesn't matter.


And yet the 1DXii was the first and only Canon camera with 4k60 for like 4 years...The 1DXiii has 5.5k60 RAW and 10-bit 4:2:2 in a time where most Canon cameras are barely getting 4k 8-bit 4:2:0.

History says an R1 is gonna shoot 8k because its $6999 price point doesnt worry Canon's cine line.


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## MiJax (Sep 22, 2020)

I wonder why the writer feels it necessary for Canon to release a pro camera so far ahead of the next Olympic year? That of course is based on the 2020 games having the 1Dx III release for it. That leaves the better part of 3 years before a new pro body would really be expected. 

Also, I'd be surprised to see Canon bring a 35+ MP pro body. So I'd assume any more 8K bodies will likely be on specialty cameras.


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## EOS 4 Life (Sep 22, 2020)

MiJax said:


> I wonder why the writer feels it necessary for Canon to release a pro camera so far ahead of the next Olympic year? That of course is based on the 2020 games having the 1Dx III release for it. That leaves the better part of 3 years before a new pro body would really be expected.
> 
> Also, I'd be surprised to see Canon bring a 35+ MP pro body. So I'd assume any more 8K bodies will likely be on specialty cameras.


The Olympics are every 2 years.


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## marathonman (Sep 22, 2020)

EOS 4 Life said:


> The Olympics are every 2 years.



Trying to trick people with the summer / winter games scenario.... ;-0


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## Sporgon (Sep 22, 2020)

masterpix said:


> Personally I don't think that any mirrorless can be "PRO" for one main feature of PRO is that you can see the real iamge in the OVF. Any EVF won't give the same "feel" or "speed" of "PRO" camera.


Oooh that’s fighting talk !


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## cayenne (Sep 22, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> 'Pro' body designation means that the grip is integrated and they use much larger batteries.



Wouldn't it also mean "weather sealed" too? I mean, a pro has to shoot outdoors in less than optimal conditions at times, eh?



But then again, that kinda negates high resolution video for the cooling problem, doesn't it?

cayenne


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## zim (Sep 22, 2020)

I don't think a sports R1 would have 8k and if it did it would only be used for 11 seconds at most.  
I'm thinking more 24mp 20fps mechanical 30fps electronic (jpeg) who needs video!


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 22, 2020)

docsmith said:


> Ok
> 
> That is nice. Good for Sony. I can see the A9 with better battery life and CFExpress cards. The "no overheating" part cracks me up. Roger had it right, it is a box, if heat is generated in the box, it needs a way to get out of the box or the box will overheat. So, either Sony has a fancy way to minimize the rate at which the heat is generated or they have found a way to get the heat out of the camera. Or, that part of the rumor is BS.


Not all designs generate the same amounts of heat, as long as the box can dissipate the amount of heat generated inside, it will not overheat. The Canon design generates a lot of heat internally, Sony has learned to reduce heat generation, a larger camera with more surface area can dissipate more, so I can conceive a much longer time to overheat as being possible at least. Remember, the Canon design is 2 years or more old, newer models will be improved.


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## navastronia (Sep 22, 2020)

I'd welcome this. If this camera matched or exceeded the A9 II's specs while adding an integrated vertical grip, a more rugged body, and good battery life, it would be the first true pro mirrorless on the market and press Canon to really deliver with the R1.

My R1 wishlist:

-26-30 MP
-20 FPS electronic shutter
-super fast readout
-great dynamic range


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## peters (Sep 22, 2020)

I dont necessarly agree with you on these 2 points:


Stig Nygaard said:


> An 8K camera has to be 40+ megapixels, and customers of 1DX and D6 are *asking* Canon or Nikon to keep it at 20 megapixels.


I think the main reason sports photographers want 20mpixel Bodies is the buffer and transfer speed. The R5 canon shoot 20 fps at 45 megapixel (!) So speed is certainly given. Buffer shouldnt be a problem as well, if they include in the R1 simply 2 CFast Slots like on the 1DX III and a full size and Speed LAN Port.
Also there is always the option that we get S-RAW. JPGs are always available in lower resolutions, so its no problem to get 20mpixel out of a 45mpixel camera. If we also get S-RAW with 22mpixel, everything would be fine. You can get 20mpixel out of a 45mpixel camera, but not the other way round. So speed shouldnt be an issue at all. 
Second reason for lower MP count could be the low light performance. But in the last 10 years the fact that lower MP means better lowlight performance prooved more and more to be not true. So we could get nice ISO performances, just like we get from the R5 currently.



> Also I don't see a typical 1DX user bother even a bit about 8K. It's practical to be able to take some videoclips, but 8K doesn't matter.


I am not so sure about that. The 1DX II was also about video and offered a very nice 4k image. The 1DX III now got 6k raw, which is pretty amazing. So I can total see 8k raw in the next "1" camera. Especialy since the R5 got it.

I agree though, I am not realy sure if its likely that the R1 will get 45mpixel and 8k - but time will tell.


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## unfocused (Sep 22, 2020)

Stig Nygaard said:


> ...customers of 1DX and D6 are *asking* Canon or Nikon to keep it at 20 megapixels...



Not this customer. I would have preferred the 1DxIII to have at least 30mp.


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## Mike9129 (Sep 22, 2020)

Just looking in from the outside, if canon did nothing but release a mirrorless version of the 1Dx iii, I think an aweful lot of "pro's" would be happy.

Its a hell of a camera.

As for what Sony is up to? great? I guess?
It's nice to talk about other camera systems. The problem is I have glass for this one, and the glass is very nice, and the R5 now is nice to go with it.
Id imagine any "pro" would find the R5 more than useable in most situations as it is.

Same can probably be said for the A9, A7iv/iii or even the A7 iii (camera is great, viewfinder is aweful)
Also, didnt they update the A9 just last year?


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## docsmith (Sep 22, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Not all designs generate the same amounts of heat, as long as the box can dissipate the amount of heat generated inside, it will not overheat. The Canon design generates a lot of heat internally, Sony has learned to reduce heat generation, a larger camera with more surface area can dissipate more, so I can conceive a much longer time to overheat as being possible at least. Remember, the Canon design is 2 years or more old, newer models will be improved.


I am was more thinking about how some have shown the A7SIII overheating faster than the R5 in 4K. Has that been debunked and I missed it? Also, I am continually impressed with how much heat is generated by modern computers. As silly as a comparison as this is, my new laptop releases its heat in the direction of where I like to keep my mouse, and it can actually get noticeably to even uncomfortably hot even doing routine tasks much less crunching data coming off an 8K sensor. So, put another way, if Sony has figured out how the heat can be dissipated faster than it is generated during 8K video processing, that will be very interesting and kudos to them. This really is not meant to be anti-Sony, I am generally impressed with what they have done. I'll be skeptical of the "8K-no overheating" statement for a body without active heat dissipation until it is actually verified or we understand the limitations for any camera manufacturer. But, this is a rumored specification of a rumored camera. Until something is released, anything is possible.


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## Bert63 (Sep 22, 2020)

masterpix said:


> for one main feature of PRO is that you can see the real iamge in the OVF.




According to what?


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## ERHP (Sep 22, 2020)

The bigger battery(10.8V/2750mAH) in the 'Pro' body has also been able to drive the AF of the lenses faster. If both Canon and Nikon stayed at 20MP in their recent 1 series bodies and the previous 'pro' Sony body was only 24MP, you have to wonder what changed in the 'Pro' oriented marketing to make the rumormill go big?


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## Bert63 (Sep 22, 2020)

8K video. While maintaining pro-level weather sealing. With no overheating.

<grabs popcorn>

This is going to be interesting...


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## jam05 (Sep 22, 2020)

goldenhusky said:


> I believe Sony has the technology to pull this off but will they do it is another question. If Sony does this hope they get better LCD screen, touch capabilities on par with Canon and more ergonomic body


Sony hasn't had any technology that anybody else hasnt had. Best they've done is mostly firmware coding. Nothing new hardware wise at all.


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## Bert63 (Sep 22, 2020)

Aside from the integrated grip, what is the R5 missing to be considered a professional camera? A slightly higher mechanical frame rate?

I don’t see $2500 dollars difference between the R5 and the 1DX, much less anything Sony has out there.


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## Skux (Sep 22, 2020)

All this paid work I've done on my 5Diii and it turns out I don't even have a pro body. I'm absolutely floored.


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## David - Sydney (Sep 23, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Not all designs generate the same amounts of heat, as long as the box can dissipate the amount of heat generated inside, it will not overheat. The Canon design generates a lot of heat internally, Sony has learned to reduce heat generation, a larger camera with more surface area can dissipate more, so I can conceive a much longer time to overheat as being possible at least. Remember, the Canon design is 2 years or more old, newer models will be improved.


I see 3 main areas of heat generation in the R5:
1. Given the 8K spec and dual cards, it would be assumed that it would have dual CFe slots. We know that they are hot spots from the R5 measurements. A larger body would be needed to dissipate the heat (however it is done) similar to the 1DXiii.
2. The sensor is the 2nd and the 1DXiii doesn't have IBIS. If the Sony (or R1) has IBIS then there needs to be a better way to move the heat. Fan/convection appears to be the only option here as IBIS doesn't allow significant heat conduction to the chassis
3. Processor/DRAM. Roger's teardown shows heat spreaders for the processor/DRAM but they would need to be bigger and better connected to the chassis. Besides clever firmware, a smaller node size eg 7nm is the best way to reduce heat generation and increase performance (and yield per wafer). It is amazing to think that semiconductor manufacturing average lead time is 3 months. Big problem if you have design flaws!
One option for the sensor size is for the R1 to have higher shutter speeds with interpolated resolution from whatever is native down to 20mp. Best of both worlds (high res for non-sports and 8K video and speed/low res for sports). Based on previous designs, a dual Digix X may be used to handle this (and maybe spread the heat generation by running each at a lower clock rate?).

"Pro" to me implies excellent weather sealing. Grip can be integrated or not but if not then heat management will have the same issues as the R5. The 1DXiii avoids 2 issues as it doesn't have IBIS or a larger sensor (and associated processing in certain video modes).
Excellent weather sealing from Sony bodies hasn't been their strong suit.
Peltier devices are inefficient, not small and are power hungry so it is hard to imagine them being used from the internal batteries. Heat pipe/sinks could be used to conduct heat into a separate chamber that is weather sealed from the internal electronics but vented. How to use fans within it and maintain overall weather sealing without low temperature burns from the chassis would be a challenge

It will be interesting to see what they come up with as well as the R1 to address these issues


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## Kiton (Sep 23, 2020)

The R5 is a GREAT camera, I call it my 5d mk 6. Who cares what Sony brings next, then Nikon, then leica etc etc,
I almost switched, I had an A9 and a few lenses, dumped it for the R5.
Canon is a pissy company, but the cameras are pretty nice!

I get AP switching, it is a branding co-op deal, they paid a fraction of the cost,
for the average shooter who pays the full whack, now that R5 is here, switching just isn't worth it.


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## JackHa2006 (Sep 23, 2020)

edoorn said:


> define ‘pro’. My two R5’s are hard at work these days now earning back their investment



According to Canon the R5/R6 are both professional and consumer cameras whereas the 1DX is only a professional camera.


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## VivaLasVegas (Sep 23, 2020)

Once Canon announces their superteles in RF 400 f2.8 or RF 500 f2.8 and RF 600 f4, then we know the R1 is well on its way. 

1DXM1: 18mp, [email protected], 12fps, dual cpu
1DXM2: 20mp, [email protected], 14fps, dual cpu
1DXM3: 20mp, [email protected], 16fps, single cpu 

R1: 33mp(minimum for 8k), [email protected], 18fps, single cpu

That’s my 2 cents.


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## shawn (Sep 23, 2020)

Is this type of camera even relevant anymore? I contend that they aren’t. Oversized and overpriced is what this will be. It’s just another scam to take more money from “pros”.


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## DBounce (Sep 23, 2020)

docsmith said:


> I am was more thinking about how some have shown the A7SIII overheating faster than the R5 in 4K. Has that been debunked and I missed it? Also, I am continually impressed with how much heat is generated by modern computers. As silly as a comparison as this is, my new laptop releases its heat in the direction of where I like to keep my mouse, and it can actually get noticeably to even uncomfortably hot even doing routine tasks much less crunching data coming off an 8K sensor. So, put another way, if Sony has figured out how the heat can be dissipated faster than it is generated during 8K video processing, that will be very interesting and kudos to them. This really is not meant to be anti-Sony, I am generally impressed with what they have done. I'll be skeptical of the "8K-no overheating" statement for a body without active heat dissipation until it is actually verified or we understand the limitations for any camera manufacturer. But, this is a rumored specification of a rumored camera. Until something is released, anything is possible.


Preproduction models. And it was only a few instances. In the three blind elephants video he explained that it was because the lens he was using had a plastic lens mount and could not properly dissipate the heat. I’ve yet to hear any incidents outside of those few cases. And several users have since tried to overheat the Sony by sitting out under a heat lamp... I think one guy even put it in an oven. Needless to say overheating should not be an issue in real world usage.
The Canon R5 is a different story. Mine overheated in an air conditioned room after intermittent shooting for half an hour. And that was after the firmware update. Needless to say I sent it back.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 23, 2020)

VivaLasVegas said:


> Once Canon announces their superteles in RF 400 f2.8 or RF 500 f2.8 and RF 600 f4, then we know the R1 is well on its way.
> 
> 1DXM1: 18mp, [email protected], 12fps, dual cpu
> 1DXM2: 20mp, [email protected], 14fps, dual cpu
> ...


How do you get 33mp 8K off a 3:2 sensor?

8k = 7,680 minimum, but Canon never use the video versions always the DCI versions, so 8,192. That is what the R5 is and that is a 44.8mp sensor.


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## DBounce (Sep 23, 2020)

VivaLasVegas said:


> Once Canon announces their superteles in RF 400 f2.8 or RF 500 f2.8 and RF 600 f4, then we know the R1 is well on its way.
> 
> 1DXM1: 18mp, [email protected], 12fps, dual cpu
> 1DXM2: 20mp, [email protected], 14fps, dual cpu
> ...


You can’t get a 8K video image from a 33MP photo sensor, because after you crop the top and bottom to DCI format you have too few pixels to work with.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 23, 2020)

I think a more interesting point raised in this rumor is the idea that it is going to be a "Pro" camera, that in this context has been taken as a sports and high frame rate low resolution camera in the style of the 1DX series and Nikon D single digit series yet the Sony competitor is breaking that standard with 45mp as opposed to 20ish, which is even found in the A9. 

I'd be interested to know what market research Sony have done to indicate they would have a profitable market in a 1 series high resolution camera when Canon and Nikon are both fairly sure there isn't one. Personally I'd love a 1 series body with an R5 sensor in it, but I don't believe Canon and Nikon think there are enough people like me who would actually purchase one.


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## shawn (Sep 23, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I think a more interesting point raised in this rumor is the idea that it is going to be a "Pro" camera, that in this context has been taken as a sports and high frame rate low resolution camera in the style of the 1DX series and Nikon D single digit series yet the Sony competitor is breaking that standard with 45mp as opposed to 20ish, which is even found in the A9.
> 
> I'd be interested to know what market research Sony have done to indicate they would have a profitable market in a 1 series high resolution camera when Canon and Nikon are both fairly sure there isn't one. Personally I'd love a 1 series body with an R5 sensor in it, but I don't believe Canon and Nikon think there are enough people like me who would actually purchase one.



Some Pros will always want a 1 series body. But the fact is it may be an anachronism in 2020. Explain to me why we need an even bigger camera body?


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## privatebydesign (Sep 23, 2020)

shawn said:


> Some Pros will always want a 1 series body. But the fact is it may be an anachronism in 2020. Explain to me why we need an even bigger camera body?


'We' don't need a bigger camera body, but I (and I'm not alone) have been using the same form factor for 20 years so my answer would be why would I want to change? When you consider the added functionality of a 1series camera, the additional battery life, the portrait orientation buttons and dials along with the durability and weather sealing having an integrated body/grip afford, and the fact that pros often work with this thing in their hands for hours every single day you might start to understand how important those ergonomics are.


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## expatinasia (Sep 23, 2020)

shawn said:


> Is this type of camera even relevant anymore? I contend that they aren’t. Oversized and overpriced is what this will be. It’s just another scam to take more money from “pros”.


The larger body is a must for pro sports photographers as it holds a larger battery, has vertical/horizontal buttons, better weather sealing, balances better with a large lens on a monopod and is more comfortable to hold to the face for long periods.


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## degos (Sep 23, 2020)

Stig Nygaard said:


> An 8K camera has to be 40+ megapixels, and customers of 1DX and D6 are *asking* Canon or Nikon to keep it at 20 megapixels.



That's news to me.

In fact I've disregarded the 1DX3 because it didn't deliver a resolution increase over the 2. And for landscapes the old creaky 1Ds3 comes out, still the highest resolution 1D ever ( and the most expensive adjusted for inflation).

The 1D series was never just a sports camera, it was the top-tier-workmanship workhorse that got the job done regardless of weather and abuse. The deal was that canon offered the best, most durable technology they had in exchange for a lot of money.

Canon diluted the proposition with the 1DX, because their technology couldn't deliver high resolution *and* speed. Finally a decade later they might be able to remedy that.


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## Kit. (Sep 23, 2020)

DBounce said:


> You can’t get a 8K video image from a 33MP photo sensor, because after you crop the top and bottom to DCI format you have too few pixels to work with.


If ARRI can get fake 4K by upscaling from 2.8K, why can't Sony get fake 8K by upscaling from 6K?


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## PerKr (Sep 23, 2020)

Well, the A9 is their pro body. "pro" doesn't really require an integrated vertical grip though it has become the norm ever since Canon switched over to this kind of design (Nikon did it before them with the F5 but the EOS 1-series didn't have this and neither did Minolta's 9-series). While the integrated battery/vertical grip does make a lot of sense, considering it a necessity for a "pro body" comes across as seriously ignorant.

Basically, what this Sony camera is, is the Sony A9 mk3. They aren't going to beat canon to having a pro mirrorless body. They already have.


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## PerKr (Sep 23, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The a9 is an ergonomic mess and battery performance is awful. It's not a 'Pro' camera.



This also has nothing to do with whether a camera is aimed at a specific group of professionals or not. Of course, we all want ergonomically perfect cameras, which Sony have not been close to doing since zombifying A-mount, with limitless battery life, which isn't even an option on mirrorless. A camera for professionals is one that is designed to be used professionally rather than being babied by a careful hobbyist.


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## edoorn (Sep 23, 2020)

JackHa2006 said:


> According to Canon the R5/R6 are both professional and consumer cameras whereas the 1DX is only a professional camera.



Well, I do suppose it makes sense for them to segment their bodies, although in reality and practice we all know there's some overlap. Steve Winter used cheap entry level DSLR's for his snow leopard camera trap images that were used in a big NatGeo publication, and there's plenty of wealthy dentists shooting their daughter's soccer games with a 1DX III.

But in general it's logical, and I suppose an R1-ish type of camera will get in the hands of pro sports, wildlife and photo journalists first.

As far as the need of an integrated grip: it does make sense to make use of a big powerful battery, and when using heavy tele lenses a small body won't cut it. The only reason I got a grip with the R5 is for the 500 (or a new potential big white in RF form)


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 23, 2020)

I will always chose the low resolution option, but I don't understand why Canon does not offer a high resolution option with a large and heavy body. I still hope that one day we see a camera with two sensors. 

Battery grips sometimes look very ugly. The battery grips of the R5 and R6 do not even align properly. That's why I wait for an R1.


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## DBounce (Sep 23, 2020)

Kit. said:


> If ARRI can get fake 4K by upscaling from 2.8K, why can't Sony get fake 8K by upscaling from 6K?


I don’t think the article mentioned anything about “fake” 8K. And since Sony has the sensors for real 8K there is no reason for them to “fake” anything.


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## marathonman (Sep 23, 2020)

expatinasia said:


> The larger body is a must for pro sports photographers as it holds a larger battery, has vertical/horizontal buttons, better weather sealing, balances better with a large lens on a monopod and is more comfortable to hold to the face for long periods.


It's almost 2021. It's time for someone to reengineer the human body so that it works better with the R1 or whatever this camera will be innovatively called. I mean the fact that we still have to mash our noses against the back of the camera, leaving greasy residue all over the new OLED screen is ridiculous and so last century. If EOSHD make a ruling on behalf of mankind that the nose performs an essential function and should be a retained feature, then I'm sure "proper engineers" with a degree in heat management from the University of YouTube could easily relocate it to an alternative and more appropriate part of the human body. 

Also, now that we have millenia of data and experience that indicates the human eye is reliable and rarely fails, it's seems appropriate that we drop one of the dual optical slots found on the faces cases of most human beings. Squinting or closing one eye and gurning while mashing 67fps for 9 straight minutes (advances in CFexpress and the buffer technology will make this possible) will no longer have to be a thing with this simple human body design change. No longer will you have to apologize to your nude model and explain that you actually have a hernia or a trapped dick disc and this angle exacerbates it.

With some proper biological reengineering of the neck, the human body could also pivot 90 degrees while still keeping the head vertical to allow the Canon engineers to eliminate the need for vertical / horizontal buttons. 

Finally, as a result of the increase in the planets core temperature due exclusively to the R5 overheating YouTube tests from Vloggers, weather sealing will simply cease to be necessary in future models.

Really, as Shawn says, you need to update your thinking to this Century and stop thinking in old analog ways.


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## Chris.Chapterten (Sep 23, 2020)

Skyscraperfan said:


> I will always chose the low resolution option, but I don't understand why Canon does not offer a high resolution option with a large and heavy body. I still hope that one day we see a camera with two sensors.
> 
> Battery grips sometimes look very ugly. The battery grips of the R5 and R6 do not even align properly. That's why I wait for an R1.


I agree the battery grip for the R5 is ugly and doesn't align very well with the body. I'm still getting one for my r5 though, the camera feels naked without it, and I like to shoot in portrait quite a bit..


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## StandardLumen (Sep 23, 2020)

The size of the 1dx has always been a deterrent to me. If Canon could scale down the R1 compared to the 1dx by the same factor as the R5 compared to the 5D, while maintaining 8K video capabilities and removing the thermal limitations, that would be enough to make me take the leap into the "pro" market

As for Sony, they have a lot to prove to me before I'd consider buying back into their ecosystem. To me, the R5 was a huge step up over the A7R IV.


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## DrToast (Sep 23, 2020)

degos said:


> That's news to me.
> 
> In fact I've disregarded the 1DX3 because it didn't deliver a resolution increase over the 2. And for landscapes the old creaky 1Ds3 comes out, still the highest resolution 1D ever ( and the most expensive adjusted for inflation).
> 
> ...



Let me see if I get this. You have a 1DX II and a 1Ds 3. When you're shooting landscapes, you go with the 1Ds 3 because it has 1 more megapixel than the 1Dx II, even though the 1Dx II is superior in every other regard, including dynamic range. Is that what you're saying?


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## Aregal (Sep 23, 2020)

goldenhusky said:


> I believe Sony has the technology to pull this off but will they do it is another question. If Sony does this hope they get better LCD screen, touch capabilities on par with Canon and more ergonomic body


I think it's funny that the wonderful screens that are on the R5 are made by Sony while Sony MILCs seem to be lagging in that feature set.


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## TAF (Sep 23, 2020)

So 'Pro' means too large for my hands, like the 1DX series. Good to know.

Hopefully it also means that the price of the slightly smaller (i.e.: fits my hands) cameras go down  

Anything that makes the R5 more affordable is welcome. The price may be very reasonable, but any savings means more glass...


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## TAF (Sep 23, 2020)

marathonman said:


> It's almost 2021. It's time for someone to reengineer the human body so that it works better with the R1 or whatever this camera will be innovatively called. I mean the fact that we still have to mash our noses against the back of the camera, leaving greasy residue all over the new OLED screen is ridiculous and so last century.
> 
> -cut-
> 
> Really, as Shawn says, you need to update your thinking to this Century and stop thinking in old analog ways.



No, the past is prologue. You need to look back to Rolleiflex. Put the OLED on the top so you can look down on it, without touching it with your nose!

Then you don't need the viewfinder at all, saving money (increasing profits).

Let the SL66 (or the Hasselblad) show the way. If you insist on adding a viewfinder so you can hold it at eye level, there was the SL3003 which had both the top down view and the rear view.


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## Adam Shutter Bug (Sep 23, 2020)

Never ceases to amaze how sheep flock to the “Pro” name. A camera may have features and be designated for a type of photography but any camera can be a pro device. You know its a joke when Apple starts using the term for a phone.
I am keeping my eyes on the 1R but it has to up the MP as right now It will be a less mp version of an R5 with a built in battery grip....


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## stevelee (Sep 23, 2020)

Adam Shutter Bug said:


> Never ceases to amaze how sheep flock to the “Pro” name. A camera may have features and be designated for a type of photography but any camera can be a pro device. You know its a joke when Apple starts using the term for a phone.
> I am keeping my eyes on the 1R but it has to up the MP as right now It will be a less mp version of an R5 with a built in battery grip....


The Pro name for a phone makes sense. A lot of people make money by talking on the phone.

I made some money when I was shooting a T3i. I don't think I have made a penny with my 6D2. Obviously the T3i was a pro camera, and the 6D2 is not.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2020)

TAF said:


> No, the past is prologue. You need to look back to Rolleiflex. Put the OLED on the top so you can look down on it, without touching it with your nose!
> 
> Then you don't need the viewfinder at all, saving money (increasing profits).
> 
> Let the SL66 (or the Hasselblad) show the way. If you insist on adding a viewfinder so you can hold it at eye level, there was the SL3003 which had both the top down view and the rear view.


Good idea, I am sure that a lot of people will complain about the egonomics. For people that com[plain, give them the Exakta pair with waist level viewer with magnifier. They can slao change it to eye level view finder just like the DSLR.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2020)

"Pro Camera". it is funny. this term does not exist in the good old film days.


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## SteveC (Sep 23, 2020)

Adam Shutter Bug said:


> Never ceases to amaze how sheep flock to the “Pro” name. A camera may have features and be designated for a type of photography but any camera can be a pro device. You know its a joke when Apple starts using the term for a phone.
> I am keeping my eyes on the 1R but it has to up the MP as right now It will be a less mp version of an R5 with a built in battery grip....




In the shooting world, the word people abuse precisely like this is "tactical." Even tactical socks!

(edit to clarify: Shooting, as in sending lead out at high velocity, not as in shooting pictures.)


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## baker21 (Sep 23, 2020)

That rumor is total BS guys. Sony has teased the Fx6.. and it will not be better than the $11k Fx9.

Sonys cine line best advantage is its Auto ND filter. Its truly amazing. Cpu processing power is not there for h265 8k yet at affordable prices.

This is total BS.. 

The pro line is at 6k sensor to 4k down sized. The 50k venice is Not even 8k.

When Sony drops the A7iv or A7rv it won't be til early 2021.. and if they do include 8k it will be a long gop only im sure. 

What Sonys Pro Cine line truly needs is an internal raw codec. That's what's needed to differentiate that bt alpha line.

Sony put its Pro x avc Intra h264 class 300 codec in A7siii. Canon did not put their pro codec in R5.
H264 can be edited in any video. 

Now venice has a class480. Though basically indistinguishable visually from class300 that fx9 has and fx6 will get.

Sony should have branded a7siii as the Fx3 !!

It would have helped distinguish their lines.

Fx6 will have auto ND and gyroscope data.

You can't have both ibis and auto ND in same unit. Tech is Not there yet. 

But this 8k rumor is nonsense. Sony is not going to drop a 8k camera that is better than their Fx9 that is a year old.


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## deleteme (Sep 24, 2020)

I roll my eyes when talk turns to "pro" cameras.
The idea that a "pro" camera MUST have an integrated grip, larger body etc. is really what a moneyed hobbyist "thinks" is "pro".

Amateurs also think pros largely inhabit sports and PJ photography genres where the benefits of a high frame rate, a deep buffer and long lived batteries make a difference. In the real world, the vast bulk of pro photography is done by people shooting subjects that can easily be done with an APS-C camera or even MFT. In addition, pros today are distinguished largely by their youth and poverty. They are not buying $6k bodies from anyone.
Make no mistake, these bodies are halo models for the amateur buyer and the nine other guys who need them for work.


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## mpb001 (Sep 24, 2020)

I just cant imagine a Sony camera with good ergonomics. I guess it’s possible, but higher unlikely that it would be better than a Canon 1 series. Or any Canon for that matter.


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 24, 2020)

We rent Canon cameras to professionals mainly in the fashion and food sectors. As you can imagine we have the 1DX MKIII, the R5 & that dinosaur the 5D MKIV (plus the 5DSr). By far the camera most rented is the 5D MKIV followed by the 5DSr then the 1DX MKIII then the R5. 

Good you defined "Pro" but any camera that earns a good return is "Pro".


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## SteveC (Sep 24, 2020)

jeffa4444 said:


> We rent Canon cameras to professionals mainly in the fashion and food sectors. As you can imagine we have the 1DX MKIII, the R5 & that dinosaur the 5D MKIV (plus the 5DSr). By far the camera most rented is the 5D MKIV followed by the 5DSr then the 1DX MKIII then the R5.
> 
> Good you defined "Pro" but any camera that earns a good return is "Pro".



Realistically, it's a continuum with no clear-cut boundary. A lot of people who do this for a living use 5 series, and if you're talking about quality of work, more than "person makes a living doing this", then of course good pictures come off of lesser and lesser cameras.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 28, 2020)

docsmith said:


> Ok
> 
> That is nice. Good for Sony. I can see the A9 with better battery life and CFExpress cards. The "no overheating" part cracks me up. Roger had it right, it is a box, if heat is generated in the box, it needs a way to get out of the box or the box will overheat. So, either Sony has a fancy way to minimize the rate at which the heat is generated or they have found a way to get the heat out of the camera. Or, that part of the rumor is BS.



You can make sealed heat exchangers. How do you think a nuclear reactor works?


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## Michael Clark (Sep 28, 2020)

ERHP said:


> The bigger battery(10.8V/2750mAH) in the 'Pro' body has also been able to drive the AF of the lenses faster. If both Canon and Nikon stayed at 20MP in their recent 1 series bodies and the previous 'pro' Sony body was only 24MP, you have to wonder what changed in the 'Pro' oriented marketing to make the rumormill go big?



No more media giants buying cabinets full of gear for their hordes of staff photographers?

The typical buyers of these types of cameras are no longer corporate customers who buy them in bulk. They're mostly well heeled enthusiasts who may be freelance "semi-pros".


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## BeenThere (Sep 28, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> You can make sealed heat exchangers. How do you think a nuclear reactor works?


Or automobile cooling systems. But these would be awkward in a hand held camera.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 28, 2020)

JackHa2006 said:


> According to Canon the R5/R6 are both professional and consumer cameras whereas the 1DX is only a professional camera.



It depends on what marketing region you're in. They call some camera's "pro" cameras in Europe that are not called "pro" cameras in North America, for instance.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 28, 2020)

VivaLasVegas said:


> Once Canon announces their superteles in RF 400 f2.8 or RF 500 f2.8 and RF 600 f4, then we know the R1 is well on its way.
> 
> 1DXM1: 18mp, [email protected], 12fps, dual cpu
> 1DXM2: 20mp, [email protected], 14fps, dual cpu
> ...



The first two RF supertelephotos will be the 300/2.8 and 500/4 that weren't updated when the 600/5.6 III and 400/2.8 III came out in 2018.

8K is 33MP in a 16:9 aspect ratio. Make a 3:2 sensor that is wide enough for 8K and you need 39MP for 8K UHD and 45MP for "8K DCI".


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## docsmith (Sep 28, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> You can make sealed heat exchangers. How do you think a nuclear reactor works?


Yes, agreed. That might be the "fancy" way Sony and/or Canon comes up with to address the issue.


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## stevelee (Sep 28, 2020)

Around fifteen years ago, the most powerful Macs were liquid cooled. I don't think that lasted a long time. These days Macs with orders of magnitude faster processors have fans that don't come on very often.


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## Joules (Sep 29, 2020)

stevelee said:


> Around fifteen years ago, the most powerful Macs were liquid cooled. I don't think that lasted a long time. These days Macs with orders of magnitude faster processors have fans that don't come on very often.


Apple runs their Intel chip exactly as hot as their allowed to get or throttles the performance down heavily in order to get away with minimal cooling systems though.

I'm not sure what your point is. But Apple is not really the greatest example for how to deal with heat in enclosed spaces.


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## stevelee (Sep 29, 2020)

Joules said:


> I'm not sure what your point is. But Apple is not really the greatest example for how to deal with heat in enclosed spaces.


I was giving an example of liquid cooling.

Apple will gradually abandon Intel chips, starting with laptops.


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## Aussie shooter (Sep 29, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> I've ammended the post to explain 'pro', I thought that desigination was clear.


I would add that the 'pro' designation should also require that it is built like a brick [email protected]#thouse(Aussie colloquialism). Any camera can obviously be used for professional work but the built tough factor is very important in my oppinion


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## goldenhusky (Sep 29, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Sony hasn't had any technology that anybody else hasnt had. Best they've done is mostly firmware coding. Nothing new hardware wise at all.



Thanks for the dumbass Canon fanboy view


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## Sporgon (Sep 30, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> I roll my eyes when talk turns to "pro" cameras.


I'd just like to raise a point here regarding the "pro" tag. When a camera is used to bring home the bacon, the treatment of that camera and the hard handling that it will get generally bear no relationship to a camera that is in amateur / hobbyist ownership. Therefore it may well have to be capable of withstanding that kind of use over a long period of time without failing. Also it has to be able to be compatible with the kind of systems that someone who is using that camera for all sorts of paid work might need or want. So in these cases I think a "pro" tag is justified 

An example that comes to mind was the robustness of the AF on the 1 series. I had a pal who was a professional photographer and many years ago his 1 series and tripod was knocked over and the camera hit the tarmac full whack. The camera was fine, and also the AF continued to be accurate. I know a few people with 5D / II cameras who had knocked them or dropped them and the AF was thrown out substantially. That includes me with a 5D and that camera didn't have AFMA to enable a user recalibration. 

The original 5D wasn't very "pro" when the mirrors fell out. There was little satisfaction in finding that you were the owner of the first FF mirrorless cameras in 2006 that everyone was yearning for when you were in the middle of a wedding. Fortunately it was simple enough to glue it back onto the mounting plate, because on those early 5D cameras that's just how it was, no other retaining devices at all. 

I think from the Mark III Canon lifted the 5 series to "pro" camera status. The 5DIII even had a stainless steel bottom plate. Neat.


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## deleteme (Oct 9, 2020)

Sporgon said:


> I'd just like to raise a point here regarding the "pro" tag. When a camera is used to bring home the bacon, the treatment of that camera and the hard handling that it will get generally bear no relationship to a camera that is in amateur / hobbyist ownership. Therefore it may well have to be capable of withstanding that kind of use over a long period of time without failing. Also it has to be able to be compatible with the kind of systems that someone who is using that camera for all sorts of paid work might need or want. So in these cases I think a "pro" tag is justified
> 
> An example that comes to mind was the robustness of the AF on the 1 series. I had a pal who was a professional photographer and many years ago his 1 series and tripod was knocked over and the camera hit the tarmac full whack. The camera was fine, and also the AF continued to be accurate. I know a few people with 5D / II cameras who had knocked them or dropped them and the AF was thrown out substantially. That includes me with a 5D and that camera didn't have AFMA to enable a user recalibration.
> 
> ...


I would disagree. I have been a full time pro for over 30 years and have used a lot of different gear to do my work. The tool that gets the job done is the one we buy and keep. When I used large format I used Deardorff, Linhof and Toyo. All did the job. Some were more pleasurable to use than others. The shutters on the lenses were the weak point but for the most part worked well. In medium format I used Hasselblad, Pentax and Mamiya. Of the three, the Hasselblads were the most unreliable yet had the most stature. In 35 I used Nikon, Canon, Minolta and Pentax. Only the Nikons went to the shop. Considering that the vast bulk of pro work can be done, and is done with lenses ranging from 24-105 FL range almost any FF system is "pro". As for reliability, today's cameras are pocket computers and as such suffer from software and FW glitches as much as mechanical failure. That happens irrespective of the model. A solid magnesium body does not save you from that.
The conceit that pros work in some screaming hurricane or a war zone all the time is ridiculous. Most studios have less drama than a library. I have had countless interesting jobs over the years many very exciting ones but the durability of my gear was never challenged regardless of the task.


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## Sporgon (Oct 9, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> The conceit that pros work in some screaming hurricane or a war zone all the time is ridiculous. Most studios have less drama than a library.


When I said " _When a camera is used to bring home the bacon, the treatment of that camera and the hard handling that it will get generally bear no relationship to a camera that is in amateur / hobbyist ownership_" I hope that you're the only one who interpreted this as _'The conceit that pros work in some screaming hurricane or a war zone '._
A camera sat in a studio all its life is one extreme, a camera used in a war zone is the opposite extreme. I'd like to think that my argument was based upon something more reasonable.


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## Rocky (Oct 9, 2020)

I dig into the “pro camera” a little bit. That is what I have found: Nikon SP ( copied and improved Contax, out of production after WW II) is the first “pro camera” claim by the manufacturer. When Nikon F( first SLR from Nikon) came out, it inheritated the “pro” title. Both cameras are well built and have more features then their peer. After that every major Japanese SLR maker introduces a “pro” model to grab the market share.


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