# Sony finally offers big/fast zooms



## ahsanford (Feb 3, 2016)

I love the prospect of owning a mirrorless rig someday. I love my 5D3 and am in no hurry to replace it. But in 5 years time, I could see myself owning a mirrorless rig.

I've ranted and raved about how the mirrorless market needs to decide if it will be focused on being smaller than a comparable SLR or if it will be focused on doing everything an SLR can (and someday, more).

Sony has withheld f/2.8 zooms from it's users for some time, but no more:

http://photorumors.com/2016/02/03/sony-launches-new-g-master-brand-of-interchangeable-lenses/

As expected, Sony is playing for the latter/red camp above, but it underscores how pursuing the "do everything an SLR can" crusade can completely torpedo keeping it small. Physics it physics and all, and those fast zooms are anything but small. 

Curious to see how that 70-200 f/2.8 handles with a Rebel-sized grip on a long day of shooting...

- A


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## AvTvM (Feb 3, 2016)

yep. Sony really bringing down the mirrorless hammer on CaNikon. Will be interesting to see, how they'll fare in the market. By now it is extremely clear to me that my Canon 5D 3 is *definitely* the last mirrorslapper I've bought. 


btw: nothing "torpedoed"  mirrorless size & weight advantage is still intact. As opposed to any [humongous] mirrorslapper, with a mirrorless camera you CAN go small, light and unbtrousive whenever you want and small/slower/fixed focal lenses are fine for the task at hand. And when needed, *** but only then *** you can mount those fast, large lenses. I still call that one of the many great mirrorless advantages. 

I prefer to have one camera, one lens system, one sort of flash protocol etc. only. Causes far less hassle. re different batteries, differet memory cards, different chargers, different raw/post-processing workflows etc. - so my next camera will be the smallest bodied, fully featured, Full Frame sensored mirrorless system I can get my hands on.


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## ahsanford (Feb 3, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> yep. Sony really bringing down the mirrorless hammer on CaNikon. Will be interesting to see, how they'll fare in the market. By now it is extremely clear to me that my Canon 5D 3 is *definitely* the last mirrorslapper I've bought.
> 
> 
> btw: nothing "torpedoed"  mirrorless size & weight advantage is still intact. As opposed to any [humongous] mirrorslapper, with a mirrorless camera you CAN go small, light and unbtrousive whenever you want and small/slower/fixed focal lenses are fine for the task at hand. And when needed, *** but only then *** you can mount those fast, large lenses. I still call that one of the many great mirrorless advantages.
> ...



I hear you. My slow prime walkaround play is the 5D3 + EF 28 f/2.8 IS USM. Small, sure, but it absolutely could be smaller without the mirror and with a native FF mirrorless mount lens. The closest A7 play in the camera size database I could make is the 35mm f/2 Loxia or the 28mm f/2 Sony:

http://j.mp/1KqhRKJ 

Yes, both A7 scenarios are a stop faster, so I appreciate it's not apples to apples.

But I do see it somewhat like you do. I want one system, and I'd love it to be small for simple walkaround needs but also stout enough for my 70-200 f/2.8L IS II (which is the biggest lens I'll ever own).

But I'll never migrate, so that future FF mirrorless rig will undoubtedly be Canon's. I can wait.

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 3, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> yep. Sony really bringing down the mirrorless hammer on CaNikon.



Lol. Off your meds again? 





AvTvM said:


> I prefer to have one camera, one lens system, one sort of flash protocol etc. only. Causes far less hassle. re different batteries, differet memory cards, different chargers, different raw/post-processing workflows etc. - so my next camera will be the smallest bodied, fully featured, Full Frame sensored mirrorless system I can get my hands on.



Well, you should be just thrilled with Sony's awesome selection of lenses and flashes. Have fun!


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## AvTvM (Feb 3, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Well, you should be just thrilled with Sony's awesome selection of lenses and flashes. Have fun!



That is the problem .. standing between myself and Sony. Canon doesn't have the right bodies, Sony does not have the right lenses ... although they are getting there as far as FE [FF] is concerned. APs-C is a disaster zone. 

How I'd wish I could get that A6300 sensor plus EVF plus AF-system in the shape of a Canon "EOS-M4"... and mount my EF-M lenses on it. And my 600EX-RTs would also work then. 

But who knows, by the time I'm through with my 5D 3, Sony A7 III or IV will be around and a nice range of FE lenses. While Canon will likely still have no FF MILC and no native short-flange back lenses.


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## ahsanford (Feb 3, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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> > Well, you should be just thrilled with Sony's awesome selection of lenses and flashes. Have fun!
> ...



I'm with Neuro on this (for the most part). As much as I want a smaller rig for walkaround, I want Canon's lenses, ergonomics, service, personal level of trust, and lack of of migration costs far far far more. 

Canon only needs to offer two things to get me what I need -- a crappy first FF mirrorless offering and then a basically competitive next iteration and I'll be in on it. Sony has much more to do as I will not adapt lenses -- I want native glass that focuses 98% as quickly/accurately as my EF USM glass. 

So, all in all, my chips are all sitting on Canon FF mirrorless. 

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 3, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> That is the problem ...



Well, it's _your_ problem.


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## Larsskv (Feb 3, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> AvTvM said:
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I would like to add to that...

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/04/tearing-down-the-sony-24-70-f4-za-oss-vario-tessar

Summary, the Sony 24-70 f/4 uses glue to connect moving parts in the AF system... It seems like every A7 owner with a native lens, will have a (lens) problem at some point, probably sooner than later...


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 3, 2016)

Larsskv said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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Sony does not have a repair facility in the US. They contract to Precision Camera, or the lenses are sent back to Japan. Repairs are so expensive in any event, that they are disposable items.

The use of glue to hold that coil is going to cause problems for products used in extreme environments, thermal expansion and contraction along with movement of the AF motor is going to eventually loosen the coil, and then, a drop of glue costs $900!

Sony may look good on paper, but in practice, the fine details can get you.


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## Larsskv (Feb 3, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Larsskv said:
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And we are still being gentle with Sony here. We haven't even talked about the lens quality variations...


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## rs (Feb 3, 2016)

These lenses will balance really nicely on the small A7 bodies :


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## ahsanford (Feb 3, 2016)

1) Forgive me for posturing -- I didn't start this thread as a cause to bolt, flip, migrate, or happy dance. I just find the offering a step towards a Sony having a more fully fleshed out lens portfolio.

2) I have no delusions whatsoever that these lenses will perform across the board as well as their closest Canon counterparts. They are likely to be sharp for their ~ $2k asking prices (the 70-200 has no price as of this moment!), but other than that, all bets are off. I highly doubt they are as well-built and well thought through as current L lenses.

3) I also ran a quick weight assessment for fun (source: B&H):

The small walkaround setup:
5D3 + 28mm f/2.8 IS USM = 1,121g
A7R II + 35mm f/2.8 + 2 extra batteries = 835g

The pickle jar setup:
5D3 + 24-70 2.8L II = 1,665 g
A7R II + 24-70 2.8 GM + 2 extra batteries = 1,616g

So it's a nice little weight savings for a tiny prime, but that gets blown to hell with these fast zooms. Such is the conundrum of mirrorless. IMHO, it's only attractive for pedestrian needs -- now I love me an f/2.8 or f/2 small walkaround setup, so I find that first option appealing as a 2nd body, but there's no way I'll migrate to Sony for it.

- A


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## ahsanford (Feb 3, 2016)

rs said:


> These lenses will balance really nicely on the small A7 bodies :



I used to put my 70-200 f/2.8L IS II on my old Rebel T1i, and it was some form of wrist torture device.

Consider the 'chunky' A7R II grip in comparison:
http://j.mp/1PB5k7L

- A


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## Dylan777 (Feb 4, 2016)

Will add all 3 G Master lenses to my Sony kit.

To me, Canon lenses are still unbeatable from pricing to IQ. I recently sold my 400f2.8 IS II - wonderful, wonderful glass.

I will give the new 70-200 G Master spin once it available. If the IQ is good enough for my needs, I'm more likely commit to mirrorless 100%. Will sell my 1Dx and my last 200f2.

There is no perfect camera/lenses. Pick the ones that fit your shooting style guys


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## Don Haines (Feb 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> 1) Forgive me for posturing -- I didn't start this thread as a cause to bolt, flip, migrate, or happy dance. I just find the offering a step towards a Sony having a more fully fleshed out lens portfolio.
> 
> 2) I have no delusions whatsoever that these lenses will perform across the board as well as their closest Canon counterparts. They are likely to be sharp for their ~ $2k asking prices (the 70-200 has no price as of this moment!), but other than that, all bets are off. I highly doubt they are as well-built and well thought through as current L lenses.
> 
> ...


This is just it...... when talking about weight, it all comes down to the glass. No mater who makes it, lenses of the same focal length and aperture are going to weigh about the same. Bring along lots of glass and it does not matter much which body you choose.....crop or FF, mirrorless or mirrored, the full kit weighs about the same...


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## Gnocchi (Feb 4, 2016)

Yup big and fast zooms, same size and weight of canons stuff.


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## candc (Feb 4, 2016)

i think the sony cameras are more suited for use with small fast primes. i really like using some of the old fd lenses. the only sony lens i have is the fe 55 and it is really good. its super sharp, well built and the af is fast. 

this new 85 looks promising but there is already the zeiss batis 85. it will be tough to top that lens. most of the reviews put it right up there with the otus. 

none of these new zooms really interest me. i will probably always have several cameras so i don't see the need to use big dslr type zoom lenses on a milc. cameras all have their uses. there doesn't have to be "one camera to rule them all"


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## Dylan777 (Feb 4, 2016)

candc said:


> i think the sony cameras are more suited for use with small fast primes. i really like using some of the old fd lenses. the only sony lens i have is the fe 55 and it is really good. its super sharp, well built and the af is fast.
> 
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> 
> none of these new zooms really interest me. i will probably always have several this new 85 looks promising but there is already the zeiss batis 85. it will be tough to top that lens. most of the reviews put it right up there with the otus.cameras so i don't see the need to use big dslr type zoom lenses on a milc. cameras all have their uses. there doesn't have to be "one camera to rule them all"



Batis 85 is not a bad lens, shot with a7s: 
https://dylannguyen.smugmug.com/Events/Share-with-Public/n-2pr3NV/i-t2pGNCQ/A

I'll put new G Master 85 to the test(vs Batis 85). Will keep one at the end...


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## candc (Feb 4, 2016)

Dylan777 said:


> candc said:
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> > i think the sony cameras are more suited for use with small fast primes. i really like using some of the old fd lenses. the only sony lens i have is the fe 55 and it is really good. its super sharp, well built and the af is fast.
> ...



very nice. those portraits really show off the lens. i don't really use the fl length much or i would definitely be looking at the batis.


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## Gnocchi (Feb 4, 2016)

Dylan777 said:


> candc said:
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> > i think the sony cameras are more suited for use with small fast primes. i really like using some of the old fd lenses. the only sony lens i have is the fe 55 and it is really good. its super sharp, well built and the af is fast.
> ...


That's very nice


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## quod (Feb 4, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Well, it's _your_ problem.


You are the reigning example of why this site is a drag. Why don't you crawl back under that rock from which you came and stop ruining another thread with your fanboism. It's tiring. We get it. You love Canon. Whoopdeedoo! Move on and park yourself in the "I really want to get the IDXII" thread where you belong.


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## jrista (Feb 4, 2016)

I'll be first in line for an a6300, and I may be getting the 70-200 as well. It depends on how well the a6300 focuses with a Canon 70-200 adapted with a Metabones. Been waiting for this camera for a year, and I'm glad to see the lens lineup is improving. Really curious to see how the 4D AF works with my Canon 600mm f/4 L II adapted to it as well.


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## jrista (Feb 4, 2016)

quod said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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+1000


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## Don Haines (Feb 4, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> That is the problem .. standing between myself and Sony. Canon doesn't have the right bodies, Sony does not have the right lenses ... although they are getting there as far as FE [FF] is concerned. APs-C is a disaster zone.
> 
> How I'd wish I could get that A6300 sensor plus EVF plus AF-system in the shape of a Canon "EOS-M4"... and mount my EF-M lenses on it. And my 600EX-RTs would also work then.
> 
> But who knows, by the time I'm through with my 5D 3, Sony A7 III or IV will be around and a nice range of FE lenses. While Canon will likely still have no FF MILC and no native short-flange back lenses.



Well said. This really sums up the state of digital camera systems..... It really seems like everyone is good at everything, but nobody excels at everything. One has the best glass, another the best bodies, another the best user interface.... nobody with the best of everything..... and that's when the fanboys come out (on all sides) to argue that their choice for themselves should be the choice for others. sigh......... Why do people get upset when someone else makes a choice due to personal preferences that they would not have made for themselves....

My ideal camera body would have Canon AF, Olympus user interface, Sony sensor, Nikon buffer, and features taken from all four........ and I would be shooting through Canon lenses....except for that 200-500 Nikon that the birders around here love......


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## quod (Feb 4, 2016)

jrista said:


> Really curious to see how the 4D AF works with my Canon 600mm f/4 L II adapted to it as well.


If big Canon glass works well with the new AF system, I would definitely pull the trigger.


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## candc (Feb 4, 2016)

quod said:


> jrista said:
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> ...



That will be interesting to see. The a7rii af does not work very well with the longer fl canon lenses for whatever reason.


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## jrista (Feb 4, 2016)

quod said:


> jrista said:
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Yup. I've been pretty impressed so far with the A7s II performance with metabones, however I haven't yet seen anyone test a Canon supertele. They can require more power to focus due to the larger elements...I think that will be the big test. That, and battery longevity when using a Canon supertele with the 6300...if the lens sucks power, that might make it difficult. If that ends up being the case, I might pick up a 150-600mm lens instead (and I'll probably do that anyway regardless, as part of my reason for getting the a6300 is to have a more portable bird and wildlife photography kit that I can bring with me more often to more places on a more regular basis...I have to plan outings with the 600mm f/4 L II and 5D III, and I miss so many good opportunities on the drive home from work and such.)


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## candc (Feb 4, 2016)

jrista said:


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. 

Ive tried the a7rii with the tamron 150-600. If the lens is initially close to proper focus then it does ok but if its way off then there is a lot of hunting/stepping. Especially in low light. better with 400doii. Only tried the 600ii on a moonshot.


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## ScottyP (Feb 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Curious to see how that 70-200 f/2.8 handles with a Rebel-sized grip on a long day of shooting...
> 
> - A



Yes. Exactly. Ergonomics make the tool. No one is clamoring for a pocket sized hammer because the normal size fits the purpose properly. 
Look at the trend towards tinier and tinier cell phones, as parodied in the movie "Zoolander". Not long after people realized the ergonomics of tiny phones sucked as a phone. Add to that the functionality people wanted for smart phones and Steve Jobs snapped everyone back to reality by going bigger with the iPhone's to get a workable comfortable device. 

Who wants to try holding onto a tiny mirror less camera with a large bright lens mounted?


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## Don Haines (Feb 4, 2016)

ScottyP said:


> Yes. Exactly. Ergonomics make the tool. No one is clamoring for a pocket sized hammer because the normal size fits the purpose properly.
> Look at the trend towards tinier and tinier cell phones, as parodied in the movie "Zoolander". Not long after people realized the ergonomics of tiny phones sucked as a phone. Add to that the functionality people wanted for smart phones and Steve Jobs snapped everyone back to reality by going bigger with the iPhone's to get a workable comfortable device.
> 
> Who wants to try holding onto a tiny mirror less camera with a large bright lens mounted?


I definitely think that ergonomics is important.... For my hands, the 7D2 is almost perfect. It feels great in my hands, is well balanced, and the buttons and dials are almost in the right position. On the other hand (pun intended), the SX-50 is the worst camera that I have ever used..... I can not pick the D*#$*@#N thing up without accidently putting it into the 10 second timer mode.... the thing is so wrong for the size of my hands that it is almost criminal.... yet I will bet that those with tiny hands will never notice the problem.


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## tcmatthews (Feb 4, 2016)

I do not think the A7II quite has enough power to support the longer glass. My 70-200f4L works great but the Tamron 150-600 could use a little help. It would not focus at all with the metabones III. With the metabones 4 it tries to auto focus and will if it has enough light. 

But I have come to the decision that use it on my 7D mark II.


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## candc (Feb 4, 2016)

So apparently posts with pictures of the Leica sl are stricken down on cr


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## tcmatthews (Feb 4, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> AvTvM said:
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> > That is the problem .. standing between myself and Sony. Canon doesn't have the right bodies, Sony does not have the right lenses ... although they are getting there as far as FE [FF] is concerned. APs-C is a disaster zone.
> ...


You might want to add Canon menus you do not want to be stuck with Olympus menus. In some ways they are worst than Sony.


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## ahsanford (Feb 4, 2016)

jrista said:


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You'd think someone would offer an adapter with a large integral battery pack for the 'migratory' Canon superwhite user moonlighting on an A7. 

- A


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## Dylan777 (Feb 4, 2016)

candc said:


> Dylan777 said:
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Your FE55 is not that far off from Batis quality - great lens. I'm currently own both Batis 25/85. After adding FE 35mm f1.4 and FE 35mm f2.8 to my Sony kit, I'm now ready to sell my FE 55.

What I really want for my Sony kit is FE 135f1.8 or f2. I'll settle with 70-200 G master until 135f1.8 comes out.


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## Dylan777 (Feb 4, 2016)

Gnocchi said:


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Thanks Gnocchi


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## jrista (Feb 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


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That might be nice, but long term I still hope for a Canon 5D model that has improved IQ. Hoping the 5D IV is it, because it's a better balance for the 600/4. My goal with the a6300 is actually to get a smaller camera that I can bring with me everywhere, since I cannot do that with the 5D III and 600/4. I may stick with a 70-200mm f/2.8 lens, or I may try a 150-600 (not sure how they will perform on the a6300, going to try renting first.) Anyway, the idea is smaller, lighter, but with a high frame rate, fast AF and good tracking. I think the a6300 fits the bill.


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## Dylan777 (Feb 4, 2016)

jrista said:


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To get all best features and IQ Sony has to offer, I would stay with native 70-200 for your A6300. Maybe add latest 1.4x or x2 TC for extra reach(x2 TC= 210 - 600mm day time shooting).

I don't have much interest in crop at this moment. But when I do, there should be no hesitation with current a6000. The a6300 specs looks even better.


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## ahsanford (Feb 4, 2016)

Dylan777 said:


> jrista said:
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> > long term I still hope for a Canon 5D model that has improved IQ. Hoping the 5D IV is it, because it's a better balance for the 600/4. My goal with the a6300 is actually to get a smaller camera that I can bring with me everywhere, since I cannot do that with the 5D III and 600/4. I may stick with a 70-200mm f/2.8 lens, or I may try a 150-600 (not sure how they will perform on the a6300, going to try renting first.) Anyway, the idea is smaller, lighter, but with a high frame rate, fast AF and good tracking. I think the a6300 fits the bill.
> ...



...don't forget about 6 batteries as well. (I'm not knocking mirrorless so much as respecting its limitations.)

- A


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## Dylan777 (Feb 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


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True. 

Few weeks back, I took my kids to Palm Spring Aerial Tramway for snow playing. I brought my a7r II + FE 35f2.8. I made big mistake by carrying 4 batteries total - 1 in camera and 3 spare. Went home with over 800 shots, two batteries were untouched, 1 empty and 1 in camera has 15% left.

Here is one of 800ish shots: 
https://dylannguyen.smugmug.com/Events/Share-with-Public/n-2pr3NV/i-DBdhGSX/A

The sad part is that, I didn't missed my 1dx at all. As a 1dx user, there is no need to send a giant to kill an ant.


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## quod (Feb 4, 2016)

jrista said:


> That might be nice, but long term I still hope for a Canon 5D model that has improved IQ. Hoping the 5D IV is it, because it's a better balance for the 600/4. My goal with the a6300 is actually to get a smaller camera that I can bring with me everywhere, since I cannot do that with the 5D III and 600/4. I may stick with a 70-200mm f/2.8 lens, or I may try a 150-600 (not sure how they will perform on the a6300, going to try renting first.) Anyway, the idea is smaller, lighter, but with a high frame rate, fast AF and good tracking. I think the a6300 fits the bill.


I'm in the same boat. If the 5D4 IQ does not improve, I'm going to migrate to Sony or Fuji. I'm excited about Fuji because they have a great build quality, weather sealing, IQ, and glass. They also have a new 100-400 coming out.


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## Reality Merely Illusion (Feb 4, 2016)

jrista said:


> quod said:
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^2 , but i think we can have an option to prevent the troll his messages from showing up?, I am close to trying it:x

a6300 looks very compelling , also for people already invested in canon ...(or those that considering the eos M)
'new' sensor , slog3, 14stops, 4k(down sampled from 6k), focus peaking , possibly decent af , and 'dirt cheap' at 1000$. To any of the hardcore trolls/fanboys; look on the bright side!, this will make canon give you 4k sooner than later in the new rebels (or 7dII with firmware upgrade), don't Q_Q

I still would have liked it to be 1100/1200$ and have 50-70raw buffer, but I look forward to reviews!

The lenses means sony is trying and is likely to stay committed(for the time being)..., The (intro) prices are (unsurprisingly) high, but that has been the trend ... , I don't expect it to compete with products out for 5-10 years on price.
I am more interested to see how they will handle the high resolution sensors, since they mentioned they were specifically designed for that..., 

I also expect a dslr(style) body with the e mount, to give a bit better balance with these big lenses...
Also people saying it goes against the whole idea of getting smaller and lighter , I guess... but there are still some smaller lenses to mount


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## Hillsilly (Feb 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> ...don't forget about 6 batteries as well. (I'm not knocking mirrorless so much as respecting its limitations.)
> - A


I hear this all the time, but it really doesn't stack up.

Using CIPA figures, an LP-E4N in a 1DX is capable of 1,120 shots and weighs 185g.
4 x NP-FW50 batteries with a Sony A7II is capable of 4x350 shots =1400 shots and weighs 4x42g = 168g.

Sounds like a pretty clear winner for mirrorless.

Real world figures are going to be different to CIPA figures for both the 1DX and the Sony A7II. But I shoot Fuji and my battery is also rated at 350. But I'd average over 400 shots per charge. And if I'm doing a timelapse, it's good for 2,000+. I get bored and pack up before the battery starts showing signs of depletion. Unless I'm doing something precise and spending a lot of time composing via the LCD (which uses a lot of power), battery life is fine. (And composing in liveview would probably use up battery life in a DSLR just as quickly.)


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## Neutral (Feb 4, 2016)

candc said:


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All works very well for my a7rII using Metabones IV adapter.
Both upgraded to the latest firmware - 3.0 for a7rII and 0.47 for Metabones IV.
This combo supports AF up to f/8 with extreme precision.
I earlier had some posts showing pictures done using EF 100-400 m2 with ex1.4 extender on a7rII using continious AF mode.
And it works well with many PDAF AF points - almost all of them, while my 1DX can use only central AF point. But now with 1DXm2 this 1dx issue with f/8 focusing is fixed.
The problem with a7rM2 using f/8 Canon lenses though is that it does not work well (very fast) in relatively low light conditions when you need ISO settings above 3200-6400 , in other words when on sensor SNR is not very high which is required for precision AF. For such cases definetly dedicated AF module on 1DX which has higher sensitivity works much better.
Also one should know on-sensor PDAF limitations. I can not work starting from total defocus on long tele lenses The same sometimes observered on 1DX as well. It is beter to do quick manual prefocus. When one get used to this all works instantly, this is just matter of habit. My ef 100-400m2 with ex1.4 focuses accurately on a7rm2 with very low light when camera ISO is going up to ISO 12800.


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## Reality Merely Illusion (Feb 4, 2016)

Neutral said:


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Sounds you get the best of both worlds , sony sensor combined with canon glass...
So you actually get good(reliable) results with continuous af as well?(sorry i did not see your posts/pictures ) , or are you mostly confined to static subjects only ( still really nice to have accurate AF....)

I don't think they will replace DSLR's any time soon for most (wildlife) users (ergonomics alone with long glass), but these last few years we have seen some interesting developments !, Being able to use all those nice canon lenses on sony's with peaking, and now even with (possibly reliable) af.... and maybe even some tracking capabilities...


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## Neutral (Feb 4, 2016)

Technology involved in thise G-Master line is very interesting and very promising.
Extreme high precison of optic elements manufacturing. Optimized AF mechanics for each lens. For 70-200 this includes two AF groups, front and rear, and also wobbling support for rear AF element to provide smooth continious AF for video.
Design baseline for all is 50 lp/mm.
MTF charts are also very impressive and better than MTF for similar Canon lenses.

I am interested in all of them, especially with 85 f/1.4 to replace my Canon EF 85 f/1.2 II as Sony 85 f/1.4 is superior to Canon 85 f/1.2 II in all respects.
I expect all of G-Master to give better IQ on a7rm2 than the similar Canon lenses.
Though my Canon EF24-70 f/2.8 USM II and EF70-200 f/2.8 IS USM II both work very well on a7rm2 giving excellent IQ and very fast and precise AF but I am missing eye AF support available when using native Sony FE glass and definitely better continious AF tracking.

So now I am planning to sell Canon 85 f/1.2 II and replace it with Sony 85 f/1.4 GM to use on a7rII and possibly get the other Sony GM lenses.
Also to replace Canon 1DX with 1DX Mark II to have better performance with tele lenses especially in low light conditions . From different pieces of informatin from different sources I expect that 1DXm2 could have at least one stop better high ISO performance than 1DX and as result 1DXm2 could outperform both a7s and a7r2 at high ISO and again could become low light king.
Currently I get much better IQ from a7r2 compared to 1dx at all ISO range including low light shooting at high ISO.
Also would be interesting to see if Sony release rumored a9 with better AF than new a6300 and this happens before Canon starts shipping 1DXm2. This could force to change my mind regarding getting 1DXm2 instead of 1DX.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 4, 2016)

The prices of these lenses seem ridiculous.



Larsskv said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



That's quite a stretch.



Dylan777 said:


> Will add all 3 G Master lenses to my Sony kit.



The 70-200 is tempting. Not sure about the 24-70. But the 85, as mentioned, competes with the Batis. The G-master is substantially heavier and costlier, is slightly faster (although nobody has measured t-stops of either as far as I know), and has arguably prettier bokeh, probably due to its rounded 11-blade aperture (batis is more swirley).


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 4, 2016)

jrista said:


> I'll be first in line for an a6300, and I may be getting the 70-200 as well. It depends on how well the a6300 focuses with a Canon 70-200 adapted with a Metabones. Been waiting for this camera for a year, and I'm glad to see the lens lineup is improving. Really curious to see how the 4D AF works with my Canon 600mm f/4 L II adapted to it as well.



I don't expect the adapted 70-200 will work nearly as well as the sony. The adapted lenses I've put significant time into the A7R2 with (70-200 2.8 IS II, 16-35 f4 IS) work *fine* in a vacuum, but comparing them to native performance is like comparing night and day.

Granted, you're looking at a different camera, but I suspect the alpha is a decent indicator on what to expect from adapted lenses on the a6300. 



jrista said:


> quod said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



I suspect it's so much about power (since the elements move fine, but tend to hunt with big glass) as it is the guys at Metabones don't have an arsenal of big glass to develop with.


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## Neutral (Feb 4, 2016)

Reality Merely Illusion said:


> Neutral said:
> 
> 
> > candc said:
> ...



I am not the only one here enjoying the best of both worlds)
While I can afford why not to do so?
Life is short and unpredictable and tomorrow may be already late)
As for a7rm2 continuous AF reliability, using Canon glass, it all depends on the lens and number of conditions.
I cannot say that it is 100% reliable.
Metabones does not guarantee reliable continuous AF but it work relatively good using latest Canon glass and latest FW in a7rm2 and Metabones IV adapter.
In addition, a lot depends on the light conditions and relative (not absolute) object speed [(dD/D)/dT not dD/dT ]. If that is more than some threshold than results are not so good.
1DX with dedicated high sensitive AF module combined with good AF tracking algorithms implemented in 1DX FW is almost 100% reliable even in extremely difficult situations.
So far, a7rm2 on sensor PDAF AF cannot compete with 1DX when using canon glass via adaptor.
1DX is much superior in this respect.
In addition, lack of ability to select starting AF point (when using all PDAF area – WIDE mode) is also very limiting factor. 
Possibly this might be addressed in rumored Sony A9 pro level body.
However, in spite of all the limitations a7rm2 with long Canon tele-zoom lenses is still very usable.
Here is one example.
This shot was done using a7r2 in AF-C mode with Canon EF 100-400 m2 +1.4 extender via Metabones IV adaptor. A7r2 was set to crop mode so equivalent focal length was 840mm and aperture was f8. Distance to object is around 1km I think or maybe even more.
First image is very small (for number of very obvious reasons) full frame preview and the other one is full size crop (100%) to show level of image details in this shot and this combo quality when using continuous AF object tracking at f/8 and maximum focal length (560mm full frame mode and 840mm in APS-C mode).


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## ritholtz (Feb 4, 2016)

jrista said:


> quod said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


-1001 ;D


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## ritholtz (Feb 4, 2016)

Neutral said:


> Technology involved in thise G-Master line is very interesting and very promising.
> Extreme high precison of optic elements manufacturing. Optimized AF mechanics for each lens. For 70-200 this includes two AF groups, front and rear, and also wobbling support for rear AF element to provide smooth continious AF for video.
> Design baseline for all is 50 lp/mm.
> MTF charts are also very impressive and better than MTF for similar Canon lenses.
> ...


DPR did real world test with in typical conditions. They find it not upto the mark. Is a6300 going to have better PDAF than a7rII. Looking at that review I got the impression that even 70D could do a better job in terms of tracking and usability.
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/5684109129/lucky-number-7-shooting-pro-sports-with-the-sony-a7r-ii


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## jrista (Feb 4, 2016)

ritholtz said:


> Neutral said:
> 
> 
> > Technology involved in thise G-Master line is very interesting and very promising.
> ...



The A7r II is a 42mp beast with a measly 5fps frame rate. It's perfectly fine for non-action stuff, it focuses perfectly well for those circumstances. I've long considered 6fps to be the minimum I would consider for birds and wildlife, and it's still not really good enough. I need more to get the ideal shot. The a6300 has 11.1fps, and an improved PDAF system. Barring focus group weight or lens power draw issues, it should perform a lot better for action shooting than the A7r II, and better than a 70D with 11.1fps.


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## Neutral (Feb 4, 2016)

ritholtz said:


> Neutral said:
> 
> 
> > Technology involved in thise G-Master line is very interesting and very promising.
> ...



I fully agree, a7r2 is not for fast sports/actions under low light conditions and erratically moving objects.
This is why I still keep and use my 1DX for that.
But as general walk-around camera a7r2 including low light/high ISO conditions is one of the best options.
For me 1DX and a7r2 are best complements to each other.
As a7r2 has better high ISO performance and IBIS it is much more versatile option for still low light photography.
I can do now hand-held pictures at night using a7r2 at situations where with 1DX I had to use tripod.
Since I got a7s and then a7r2 I do not use any more 1DX for general low light photography as getting better pictures using a7s and a7r2.
1DX is now only for sports/fact actions/events etc. where continuous AF tracking performance under difficult conditions is critical.

As for DPR article - I've seen this before and I think that now it is already a bit outdated for both native glass AF and especially for adapted canon glass as both Sony and Metabones provided new FW upgrades ( 3.0 and 0.47) which improves AF on native Sony glass and Metabones FW upgrade provided very good AF improvements for Canon glass.
Also from what I've seen about new Sony FE 70-200 f/2.8 I think that it might have significantly better AF performance (speed and accuracy) compared with A mount 70-200 f/4 which is relatively old lens now


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## ahsanford (Feb 4, 2016)

jrista said:


> The A7r II is a 42mp beast with a measly 5fps frame rate. It's perfectly fine for non-action stuff, it focuses perfectly well for those circumstances. I've long considered 6fps to be the minimum I would consider for birds and wildlife, and it's still not really good enough. I need more to get the ideal shot. The a6300 has 11.1fps, and an improved PDAF system. Barring focus group weight or lens power draw issues, it should perform a lot better for action shooting than the A7r II, and better than a 70D with 11.1fps.



I think action/sports/wildlife folks will cling to their OVFs and mirrors far longer than the general photography community. They chew through less battery, are more responsive, focus faster, track better, etc. When mirrorless has finally taken over the market from SLRs (many years from now), I *still* expect highest end SLRs will still be made for the sports sideline and pro wildlife photographers. 

If you're an Canon action shooter desperate for a new sensor (I'm not necessarily speaking to you with that statement, Jrista), surely a D500 would be a better call than an A6300, wouldn't it? 

Perhaps help me understand, why else would action folks want to pitch their mirrors in _2016?_ SLRs still clearly outperform mirrorless in servo / action AF needs today, so ditching the mirror for _that_ application seems a huge step back in performance.

- A


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## ritholtz (Feb 4, 2016)

jrista said:


> ritholtz said:
> 
> 
> > Neutral said:
> ...


Thanks for information. a6000 AF during video is not that great. If a6300 matches 70d dpaf during video that is pretty good with small form factor for target users like me.


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## ahsanford (Feb 4, 2016)

Quote of the year from another site I post on, this time from an A7 proponent, fired up about these new lenses:

_"Now we can get down to business and put the fat bulky DSLR’s to pasture. One last thing for me is a dual card slot. That will put Sony at the top."
_
You heard it here first, folks. All Sony needs is a dual card slot and it's over. Shut down CR, people. This is like Pitchfork finally reaching it's goal.

Please understand that I want mirrorless to succeed, but have no delusions that it is anywhere near fully delivering on its potential. So please don't mistake this post for mockery so much as a 'wow' take on how different parts of the photography world think it is doing.

- A


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## jrista (Feb 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > The A7r II is a 42mp beast with a measly 5fps frame rate. It's perfectly fine for non-action stuff, it focuses perfectly well for those circumstances. I've long considered 6fps to be the minimum I would consider for birds and wildlife, and it's still not really good enough. I need more to get the ideal shot. The a6300 has 11.1fps, and an improved PDAF system. Barring focus group weight or lens power draw issues, it should perform a lot better for action shooting than the A7r II, and better than a 70D with 11.1fps.
> ...



I agree, people en-masse won't be moving. I"m thinking about my own needs here. I am still not a huge fan of EVFs, but I DO need a smaller kit that I can bring with me on a far more frequent basis, even every day, where I cannot bring my 5D III and huge 600mm f/4 lens. I want an every-day camera, one I wouldn't be ready to kill myself over if someone broke into my car and stole (and, with the 600mm lens, I never leave it anywhere, I always keep it in sight or locked away safely at home...hence the reason I cannot always bring it with me to work or wherever else I go.) 



ahsanford said:


> If you're an Canon action shooter desperate for a new sensor (I'm not necessarily speaking to you with that statement, Jrista), surely a D500 would be a better call than an A6300, wouldn't it?



I am desperate for a new sensor...but I am also desperate not to lose my existing investment in lenses. A Nikon cannot be adapted to Canon lenses without additional glass...which is a deal breaker. I'd prefer a D500, it just isn't as viable an option as the a6300 and A7r II. 



ahsanford said:


> Perhaps help me understand, why else would action folks want to pitch their mirrors in _2016?_ SLRs still clearly outperform mirrorless in servo / action AF needs today, so ditching the mirror for _that_ application seems a huge step back in performance.



Not every action folk will. I do know a lot of people who went to the a6000 though. It's a REALLY tough deal to pass up...has been for over a year. It is jam-packed with features and image quality, and Canon has nothing that even remotely comes close. I don't foresee Canon having anything that is even remotely close for years still, as they just don't have a small, compact, mirrorless ball game at all. Maybe someday they will, but the versatility of the a6000 series makes it very appealing for those who do shoot action and want something smaller and more portable for every day use, without losing access to their Canon lenses. The a6300 should be much more ideal for that last point as well, given the new PDAF capabilities. It probably won't be ideal...but certainly better than dumping a bunch more money on additional Nikon lenses, or switching brands entirely.


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## ahsanford (Feb 4, 2016)

Jrista, I won't quote-reply here, but thanks for your comments.

If Hamburger A is a proper tracking AF SLR with a FF sensor and a 600mm prime, _Hamburger B will really suck in comparison_ (if 600mm is still needed).

The Venn diagram overlap of [tracking AF] + [reach] + [FF sensor IQ] is simply a brutal one to recreate elsewhere. All your best options are a big step down the mountain:


Fuji + their new 100-400 --> I question their tracking AF but that could work
Sony crop (A6300) + a native long lens --> the glass isn't nearly as good
Sony crop (A6300) + a great Canon long lens --> cool new AF system notwithstanding, can it drive the big glass quickly and accurately?
m43 + 300mm prime --> fine, but you'll be handcuffed ISO-wise and the sensors simply aren't as good

I'm not trying to shoot you down here, but any sensor upside you might see will be absolutely pummeled by what those other systems _can't_ do that your Hamburger A already can. 

Perhaps a one-off major spend on a Camera B setup of a D500 and their 200-500 would be more compact, deliver fine IQ and track subjects well. But you clearly have tortured the problem and have a different take on things.

- A


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## biggiep (Feb 4, 2016)

jrista said:


> Maybe someday they will, but the versatility of the a6000 series makes it very appealing for those who do shoot action and want something smaller and more portable for every day use, without losing access to their Canon lenses. The a6300 should be much more ideal for that last point as well, given the new PDAF capabilities. It probably won't be ideal...but certainly better than dumping a bunch more money on additional Nikon lenses, or switching brands entirely.



Have you actually tried shooting moving subjects AF-C on an A6000 using an adapter and EF lenses? Tell us how that goes.


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## Reality Merely Illusion (Feb 4, 2016)

jrista said:


> ritholtz said:
> 
> 
> > Neutral said:
> ...



11.1 fps is better than 7 yes...., 

When I sold my 7d to a good friend of mine (for a friendly price), I was looking to add something else,
At the time the 70d looked like an good option, but mirrorless looked compelling as well....
Im a sucker for buffer, and consider it the only downside on the 1mkiv (It would have approached perfection for me if it had 50-60-70raw)
So after crunching some numbers I ended up adding an olympus ( lol..., I would have never thought that).

Sorry to bore some of you with some numbers ,
But some math did the trick for me.... , 


70d: 6.74 frames/s for 14 shots, then it slow down to 1.27 frames/sec (95mb UHS-I card).
em1:9.9 frames/s for 50 shots then slows to approx 3 (also 95mb UHS-I card).

Situation 1 : Suppose 2 seconds of action 
70d =13.48(14) shots => 100% shots in focus =>14 usable if 70%
em1=19.8(20) shots => 70% shots in focus =>14 usable, needs 49%

I supposed: 70% in focus for the 70d(10 shots), where the em1 needed 49% to match it.

now the 'best' case for the em1.
situation 2 :5 seconds of action
70d = (6.74*2) + (1.27*3) = 17.29(17) shots 100% in focus =17 usable shots 53% in focus
em1 = 9.9*5 = 49.5 (50 shots) 34% in focus =17 usable ,needs 18% in focus to match

For raw+jpg the numbers would be
(6.74*1+0.87*4) = 10 shots if 100% in focus , if 60% in focus
(9.90*3.5+1.5*1.3)= 37 shots needs 27% in focus, needs 17% in focus....

Based on these numbers I though ah well why not try it ..., being skeptic and expecting terrible results I was easily impressed by the focus speed (static) and tracking capabilities(in decent light) of this little thing..., few tests on easy subjects like cars/cyclists/dogs/birds(against sky) I easily achieved between 70 and high 80's% in focus.

In my view fact is compared to entry/mid level DSLR's from nikon/canon the (top) mirrorless doesn't need to match the AF performance to get the same number of keepers , Higher frame rates and (much) deeper buffers ( especially when considering RAW) can make up for some of the lower 'hit rates'....

No it will not replace a DSLR(any time soon) for difficult tracking situations(some issues:viewfinder blackout , lower light tracking capabilities , lack of raw acquisition speed.. and the matter of 'trust' ), for the time being I stick with DSLR for wildlife photography as main camera..., but the a6300 seems to (partially) address the viewfinder blackout.

I can see how something like a sony a6300 can be a great addition/option to some (canon) shooters,
11 fps and a 50% bigger buffer compared to a 70d allows for some lower hit rate on the a6300 to still get similar number of shots in focus... It will be interesting to see how well it performs with canon glass (i don't want sony glass), and I might be tempted to get it instead of the em-1 (would be nice not having to manual focus some glass...) 

don't misunderstand me for saying it us just as good or that it equals it, because that is not what I'm saying. I am just trying to restate some obvious thoughts which I think some of the 'defenders' sometimes overlook .


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## candc (Feb 5, 2016)

There are some samples here

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_FE_85mm_f1-4_GM/

http://briansmith.com/field-test-sony-g-master-24-70-f2-8-85-f1-4-lenses/

Looks really good. Sony seems to have went all in with these lenses.


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## jrista (Feb 5, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Jrista, I won't quote-reply here, but thanks for your comments.
> 
> If Hamburger A is a proper tracking AF SLR with a FF sensor and a 600mm prime, _Hamburger B will really suck in comparison_ (if 600mm is still needed).
> 
> ...



I would say jury is still out on:



Sony crop (A6300) + a native long lens --> the glass isn't nearly as good

Sony just released the new 70-200mm G FE lens. We still need to see how good that thing is, but it's the first of a new line of higher end lenses from Sony. I have high hopes...and I really like Sony's approach with their photography business so far. They are responsive to customers, and responsive much more quickly than Canon. With Canon, it takes years and years...with Sony they usually respond with new products much more quickly. I used to think that was a bad thing...but man...I WAIT for Canon for everything, and I'm so tired of waiting.

Plus, you completely missed the 150-600mm lens on EF mount adapted to the E mount. Much smaller lens, but still 600mm. I've seen the IQ, it's great. It isn't super fast, so the focus group isn't going to require the kind of power that my 600/4 would. That would give me the option of either the 5D III + 600/4, 5D III + 150-600, a6300 + 150-600 (probably the ideal option for a lot of my work), and, if it worked, even the a6300 + 600/4 (tripod only, I'd guess). Plus, I'll probably pick up the new Sony 70-200 if an adapted Canon 70-200 doesn't work as well as I need, and since I intend to be a Canon+Sony guy for the long term, having Sony lenses in my kit doesn't bother me. I actually really want to pair the small a6300 with some of Sony's small E-mount leses...there are some I want that fit into a small corner of my pocket, and I can carry around the camera and a bunch of lenses and not even feel the weight of any of it. Portability with excellent features and excellent IQ across the board is one of my goals here, and Canon still doesn't have anything to offer me on that front. (If Canon DID have something to offer, then I wouldn't be nearly as excited about the a6300.)


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## jrista (Feb 5, 2016)

Reality Merely Illusion said:


> 11.1 fps is better than 7 yes....,
> 
> When I sold my 7d to a good friend of mine (for a friendly price), I was looking to add something else,
> At the time the 70d looked like an good option, but mirrorless looked compelling as well....
> ...



We still have to see how the a6300 performs. I suspect it will perform better than a 34% hit rate, at least with E-mount glass. I also suspect it will be a better than 34% hit rate with adapted Canon glass. I don't know exactly what the hit rate will be, and I'm also skeptical about many of the early reviews that come out in regards to autofocus performance. It takes time to learn an AF system. Going from the 7D to the 5D III took time, and I'd been using the 7D for years, and was well versed with Canon's AF system. Even after configuring the 5D III with my preferred button layout, it still took time to fully come to grips with the 61pt AF system's capabilities. 

I've used the A7r and a6000. With Sony glass they perform well, and the a6000 AF system is pretty nice (once it locks onto a subject, it seems to maintain the lock and track better than my 5D III). But I have no illusions about needing to spend time with the a6300 to learn it's focus system. With proper control and a proper understanding of how the system works, I believe I can have just as good a keeper rate as if I was using a 7D II. Even Canon's system is not ideal. I had plenty of misses with the 7D...the intrinsic jitter with that 19pt AF system was high enough that I had an effective 5fps frame rate (out of the rated 8fps.) The 5D III gets maybe 4-5fps effective when you account for the bit of jitter, sometimes a little worse in less than ideal light (which is quite frequent with a lot of wildlife shooting). The 5D III has never performed on AF like the 1D X. The 7D II, which two friends of mine own, fares better, but I would say it's an effective 7-8fps most of the time sometimes better (and it sounds awesome when it's firing away at a continuous 10fps), as there is still that bit of jitter. 

So if the a6300 is 11.1fps, once I learn how to use it's AF system properly, I expect to get an effective 8-9fps out of it.


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## quod (Feb 5, 2016)

Reality Merely Illusion said:


> I don't think they will replace DSLR's any time soon for most (wildlife) users (ergonomics alone with long glass), but these last few years we have seen some interesting developments !, Being able to use all those nice canon lenses on sony's with peaking, and now even with (possibly reliable) af.... and maybe even some tracking capabilities...


Agreed. I do a lot of bird in flight shots, and I don't think we are there yet with mirrorless. The A6300's live-view mode for tracking sounds like a good innovation for normalizing high-speed wildlife photography between mirror and mirrorless designs. As nice as the A6300 looks on paper though, it still has issues. No joystick, unknown buffer size, small battery, not very rugged/weatherproofing, etc. I'm not worried about the size, as I can balance the lens/camera on my gimbal. The reality is that I have to do a lot of adjustments in different zone modes, and I often do them during fast-moving sequences. Without a joystick (and AF area select button), I don't see how it will work for me unless Sony's system is so smart I don't have to worry about it. Buffers are key, too. For slow moving wildlife though, the A6300 dynamic range + crop would be wonderful.


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## ahsanford (Feb 5, 2016)

quod said:


> Agreed. I do a lot of bird in flight shots, and I don't think we are there yet with mirrorless. The A6300's live-view mode for tracking sounds like a good innovation for normalizing high-speed wildlife photography between mirror and mirrorless designs.  As nice as the A6300 looks on paper though, it still has issues. No joystick, unknown buffer size, small battery, not very rugged/weatherproofing, etc. I'm not worried about the size, as I can balance the lens/camera on my gimbal. The reality is that I have to do a lot of adjustments in different zone modes, and I often do them during fast-moving sequences. Without a joystick (and AF area select button), I don't see how it will work for me unless Sony's system is so smart I don't have to worry about it. Buffers are key, too. For slow moving wildlife though, the A6300 dynamic range + crop would be wonderful.



Five years ago, if you had said to me that "In 2016, people will use [an APS-C mirrorless rig] and 'gimbal' in the same sentence", I'd have laughed at you.

Again, I'm not shooting down the idea or ridiculing it -- _I'm marveling that we're even talking about it._

- A


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## candc (Feb 5, 2016)

quod said:


> Reality Merely Illusion said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think they will replace DSLR's any time soon for most (wildlife) users (ergonomics alone with long glass), but these last few years we have seen some interesting developments !, Being able to use all those nice canon lenses on sony's with peaking, and now even with (possibly reliable) af.... and maybe even some tracking capabilities...
> ...



I do a lot of bif shooting. There seems to be a lot of speculation about how good the Sony cameras are for this but not a lot of first hand reports. I think next time out I will give it a go with the a7rii and 400doii. I will shoot crop mode and see if the af can keep up. Ive gotten used to the camera now so I know how to change af functions and such on the fly.


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## Aglet (Feb 5, 2016)

*Sony G-Master Lenses - 50 lp/mm*

I don't know if anyone's posted this link or watched it but here's the *Sony Press'r from Feb 03*.

The goal for their new, shall we call them "pro" series of G-master lenses is 50 line-pairs per millimeter.
You find the lens info starts around 21 minute mark.

More on the a6300 is near the start of the presentation.

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDGnl5SHBzc*

edit: add

- emphasis on transition zone bokeh
I think I heard something about 10nm lens surface precision and more careful element placement which provides the smoother focus transition.
More advanced optical design software (really, this didn't exist before?!?) allows them to evaluate performance BEFORE building the lens.

same 10nm precision of position for the focus group movement, also increased speed for moving the large groups

$2200us/2900cdn in March for 24-70/2.8

$1800us/2400cdn in March for 85/1.4

no price yet, 70-200/2.8 in May, ~1m min focus
1.4x & 2x TCs specifically for the 70-200 available in future


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## stochasticmotions (Feb 5, 2016)

I also do quite a bit of bird in flight shooting. A6000 with the sony 70-200 was quite good for tracking once I figured out the right settings. Problem of course is lack of reach with native lenses. Currently using A7RII with same lens and the tracking is just as good but you don't get the 10 frames per second. Have been using the canon 100-400 II (with and without 1.4 kenko) on the A7RII...tracking is quite good if you are not starting well out of focus. Definitely hunts much longer than I would like and I have missed opportunities with that combo. Still think it is amazing that it is as good as it is in such a short time with non native lenses. Last combo I use is Sigma 120-300 f2.8 with and without the canon 2X teleconverter. This combo actually tracks better than the canon 100-400 but once in a while it will crash the camera. I'm still using the version 2 of the metabones adapter, not sure if it would be significantly better with the newer one.

For now I carry both the 1D IV and the sony around since more static nature shots are pretty amazing with the sony and quick shots are still better on the canon. Might even look back into the panasonic if that new 100-400 could be paired with a good tracking new m4/3 camera.....Choices

Can't wait to see what comes on both the canon and sony side in the next year or two.


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## janmaxim (Feb 5, 2016)

*Re: Sony G-Master Lenses - 50 lp/mm*



Aglet said:


> More advanced optical design software (really, this didn't exist before?!?) allows them to evaluate performance BEFORE building the lens.



Probably a more evolutionary update with better features or better simulation models giving better precision to the software's predictions on the lens/optics performance.


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## 9VIII (Feb 5, 2016)

*Re: Sony G-Master Lenses - 50 lp/mm*



Aglet said:


> The goal for their new, shall we call them "pro" series of G-master lenses is 50 line-pairs per millimeter.
> You find the lens info starts around 21 minute mark.
> 
> *https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDGnl5SHBzc*



Yikes, Sony certainly aren't pulling punches. They might actually end up making the only other 70-200 lens that's good for portraits.

It's hard to say exactly what they mean by "50lp/mm baseline" though. Obviously that's not across the frame, but are they saying that still applies at f1.4 on the new 85mm G Master?
If not then what they're advertising is basically the same as the Sigma Art series, but for more than twice as much money.
Even so, it's a good shot at the competition. If we've learned anything in the last few months, it's that Canon and Nikon can still be very protective of their lens market.

Roger is going to be a busy man when these lenses start shipping. Sony can talk standards, but the averages off the test bench will tell us what's really going on.
Build quality is another thing Canon seems to be leveraging quite well lately. I doubt Sony's 85GM is going to match the EF 35f1.4MkII, but we'll see. I can't wait to see that 70-200 get stripped down and see what the dual AF motor system looks like.


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## Reality Merely Illusion (Feb 5, 2016)

jrista said:


> Reality Merely Illusion said:
> 
> 
> > 11.1 fps is better than 7 yes....,
> ...



I am hopeful for the coming years that the EVF's will be further improved together with tracking(and focus acquisition abilities). 

Nikon only recently criticized mirrorless for their blackout , the a6300 seems to take care of this to a certain extent(it drops to 8 instead of 11 fps?). 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRcAKQQ2wV8

But since the lenses for ff/crop aren't going to be smaller I still like to see mirrorless technology implemented in a 7dII/a77II/d500 body!, It may make no sense marketing wise(not really my thing), but why not have 2 options ? a 7dII with evf/mirror , rebel with mirror / 'faster' rebel with evf, it seems the evf technology is reaching a point that nikon/canon could be seriously considering it ?, I don't think mirrorless has to be only about the reduced size (again lenses aren't getting smaller) , but if samsung can do 15fps with a 28mp nx1 , imagine the possibilities for the 7dII successor if it lost the mirror ?, as long as they leave us a choice


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 5, 2016)

*Re: Sony G-Master Lenses - 50 lp/mm*



9VIII said:


> It's hard to say exactly what they mean by "50lp/mm baseline" though.



It doesn't mean anything other than they'll evaluate them at 50lp/mm. Oddly, that isn't reflected in their MTFs (theoretical, not measured). 

I may just rent the GM 85 1.4 and compare it to the Batis 1.8, but on paper I'm not moved.


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## quod (Feb 5, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Five years ago, if you had said to me that "In 2016, people will use [an APS-C mirrorless rig] and 'gimbal' in the same sentence", I'd have laughed at you.
> 
> Again, I'm not shooting down the idea or ridiculing it -- _I'm marveling that we're even talking about it._


I once tried an EOS M with my 500/4 II + 1.4x extender on a gimbal while photographing eagles fishing at a dam. That didn't work very well. I have higher hopes for new mirrorless designs.


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## candc (Feb 6, 2016)

we will have to wait and see but there are some predictions that these lenses could be the best/sharpest available. Sony is saying that present lenses are ok for 40mp but they are making these lenses for future high resolution sensors. So I guess that means 40mp is not "high" resolution. Seems they will be dropping a 100mp bomb before the mp war is over.


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## Aglet (Feb 6, 2016)

you can get a bit more of a sense of what these lenses may offer by checking out the article from I-R.
good descriptions and some samples.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2016/02/04/sony-raises-the-bar-we-talk-with-sonys-top-lens-designer-about-what-makes-t

This kind of lens performance is exactly why I tossed my Canon 70-200 2.8 L 2 out - it was pretty sharp, but the transition bokeh was horrid!
I'm glad this is being addressed by more mfrs. Fuji's done a good job by using very complex designs w-o aspheric elements but that tends to lose some contrast and gains in size and weight. Seems Sony's solved some of the production bugs which may allow for simpler designs but without the major compromises that have held back many other mfrs' lenses. 
I'm no fan of bokeh on my Nikon 70-200/4 VR either. OTOH, my old Tamron 70-200/2.8 has a decent balance of sharpness and bokeh performance.
This Sony is likely to have much better sharpness performance and as good or better bokeh.

YUP, this is a big evolutionary step in lens production, IMO.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 6, 2016)

Aglet said:


> you can get a bit more of a sense of what these lenses may offer by checking out the article from I-R.
> good descriptions and some samples.
> 
> http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2016/02/04/sony-raises-the-bar-we-talk-with-sonys-top-lens-designer-about-what-makes-t
> ...



Canon are very deliberate about their lens design and take all factors, like transition areas, into account, you only need to look at their intentional portrait lenses designed for smooth transitions, like the 50 f1.2 the 85 f1.2 and the 135 f2, to see they well understand the concept and dial it in against other factors for any particular design, if you wanted a smoother 70-200 f2.8 IS then just get the MkI, that is the sole reason I have kept mine.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 6, 2016)

Aglet said:


> This Sony is likely to have much better sharpness performance and as good or better bokeh.



On what are you basing the likeliness? Sample images look fine, but they're nothing to write home about.


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## quod (Feb 6, 2016)

candc said:


> I do a lot of bif shooting. There seems to be a lot of speculation about how good the Sony cameras are for this but not a lot of first hand reports. I think next time out I will give it a go with the a7rii and 400doii. I will shoot crop mode and see if the af can keep up. Ive gotten used to the camera now so I know how to change af functions and such on the fly.


I'm curious to find out how that goes. I've thought about the possibility of using a Sony for wildlife, but as you note, I haven't seen much testing of Sony cameras with bigger Canon glass.


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## that1guyy (Feb 6, 2016)

jrista said:


> quod said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


+ 100000000000 

All he does is insults people who don't follow his narrow view on photography equipment.


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## Neutral (Feb 6, 2016)

candc said:


> quod said:
> 
> 
> > Reality Merely Illusion said:
> ...


Why you want to use crop mode in camera ?
This doesn't give any benefits other than reduced image file size from the camera.
Object resolution in crop mode is the same as in FF mode (number of pixels per object projection on the sensor is exactly the same). AF speed is the same.
But using camera crop mode you loose wider angle of view and this makes it more difficult to keep very fast moving objects in frame and for longer focal length even to catch them in the frame.
I was trying both crop and FF mode on a7r2 with 100-400 m2 + 1.4 extender (FF focal length is 560mm) and found that is is better to do crop in post processing rather than limit angle of view using in-camera crop mode. With 840mm resulting focal length using in-camera crop mode it was extremely difficult to keep fast moving object in frame, sometimes just not possible, and also difficult to get object in frame first time ( find it) when it is erratically moving.
So wider angle of view in FF mode make things more easy.
On my a7r2 with 100-400m2 + 1.4 extender continious AF was working well enough even at max focal length, see example I posted above. For best results it is required to have latest FW both in a7r2 and Metabone IV adaptor ( 3.0 for a7r2 and 0.47 for Metabones).
But for still or slow moving objects in-camera crop mode is useful as allows to get smaller image file size out of the camera.


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## candc (Feb 6, 2016)

Neutral said:


> candc said:
> 
> 
> > quod said:
> ...



crop mode to keep the files sizes down (18mp) i don't know if the frame rate is any faster in crop mode but the buffer should be more?

i like to have the bird filling about half the frame so i will try some different options like 400mm crop mode vs 560 ff and see what seems to work best. i use 600 on a crop body quite a bit. i am pretty good at tracking.


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## quod (Feb 6, 2016)

that1guyy said:


> All he does is insults people who don't follow his narrow view on photography equipment.


Yep. I wonder why the mods haven't booted him or at least given him a warning about his conduct.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 6, 2016)

Aglet said:
 

> This Sony is likely to have much better sharpness performance and as good or better bokeh.



70-200 GM bokeh transition. Meh.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 6, 2016)

that1guyy said:


> All he does is insults people who don't follow his narrow view on photography equipment.



As opposed to what...helpful, insightful comments like this?



that1guyy said:


> Let's see your S___ photos then big boy.



Oh, well done. :



quod said:


> Yep.



I'm glad you agree, thanks. 

Oops, was that almost as out of context as your commentary?


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## msm (Feb 6, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> that1guyy said:
> 
> 
> > All he does is insults people who don't follow his narrow view on photography equipment.
> ...



I find it a lot more insightful than your contributions to this thread, which are as insightful and interesting as dog piss on a light pole. If I am to be generous I would guess it is the same motivation that drives both you and the dogs. Though the fact that you seem to have spend a considerable part or your awake life the last 5 years of your life writing your 18000+ posts of garbage seem to indicate a more serious compulsive disorder.


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## Orangutan (Feb 6, 2016)

quod said:


> that1guyy said:
> 
> 
> > All he does is insults people who don't follow his narrow view on photography equipment.
> ...


I've never noticed him cross that line, can you give a specific example?

neuroanatomist is a contradiction: while he's often caustic with people he deems lazy or trolling, he has also generously given extensive, helpful and specific advice to people who've asked for it.


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## Aglet (Feb 6, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> Canon are very deliberate about their lens design and take all factors, like transition areas, into account, you only need to look at their intentional portrait lenses designed for smooth transitions, like the 50 f1.2 the 85 f1.2 and the 135 f2, to see they well understand the concept and dial it in against other factors for any particular design, if you wanted a smoother 70-200 f2.8 IS then just get the MkI, that is the sole reason I have kept mine.



Exactly. Until now it's generally been a compromise, especially for a zoom. Sony's tech appears to address the ability to achieve a better compromise with a boost in all parameters; sharpness, bokeh, and size-complexity-contrast. 
My point is, they've identified the weaknesses and limitations in design and production and they've addressed them. This is the kind of innovations Sony has always been very good at. Their product marketing and other business decisions I won't get into! 
I'm interested in finding out how micro-contrast and other parameters fare in their new designs.

Yes, i've had ALL of Canons 70-200/2.8 L's. I liked the bokeh from the non-IS best, the v1 IS was also decent but I found mine was a bit soft and also had regular front-focus issues (before I had an AFMA body). the v2 IS was plenty sharp and contrasty, very punchy images vs its predecessors but often garish bokeh in busy compositions.
Overall, I find the Tamron has the best compromises for how _I_ like to use such a lens.


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## Aglet (Feb 6, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > This Sony is likely to have much better sharpness performance and as good or better bokeh.
> ...



I'm speculating on how it will compare to my present IQ preference in 70-200/2.8; Tamron.


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## Deleted member 91053 (Feb 6, 2016)

that1guyy said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > quod said:
> ...



I think you will find that "All he does is insults people who" live under bridges - see Nordic legends.
As to his views on photography equipment I both agree and disagree, however I have found that he does like an educated discussion with diverse views - I think that is what forums are for? However both he and I have little time for people who have little knowledge and have a hissy fit when they are questioned.
If you disagree then prove him wrong - or is it just easier to throw Teddy out of the pram?
Please feel free to have a go at me I will appreciate the compliment.


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## Aglet (Feb 6, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> 70-200 GM bokeh transition. Meh.



I find, if anything, the OOF transition with this lens, while pleasingly smooth, is also a bit _sudden_.
But I'll take that over the kind of multi-imaging garbage produced by many other _sharp_ zooms that use aspherics.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 6, 2016)

Aglet said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > 70-200 GM bokeh transition. Meh.
> ...



I don't care for it. It looks almost like motion blur, but maybe that's the texture. Unfortunately there is practically nothing to look at yet.


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## StudentOfLight (Feb 6, 2016)

Aglet said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > Aglet said:
> ...


I also have the Tamron 70-200 VC. Very good except wide open at 200mm. At that setting it is a bit soft. When closed down to f/4 it sharpens up nicely. I'm quite happy with mine. Autofocus is also very reliable.


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## jd7 (Feb 6, 2016)

johnf3f said:


> that1guyy said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



I think johnf3f has summed it up pretty well.

I would add that I don't think neuro has a narrow view about photographic equipment at all. What he tends to rail against is hyperbolic statements based on a narrow view of photographic equipment and/or misunderstandings about the practical impact of some feature. If you'd like some new feature which canon doesn't have, by all means say so and explain how you think it would benefit your photography. But think very carefully before making statements like canon must do X or Canon is finished, or canon does not innovate.


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## candc (Feb 6, 2016)

There is no price listed for the 70-200 yet. I am thinking Sony is trying to ease the shock of the $3500+ price tag. The existing A mount 70-200 2.8 is $3000


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## JBSF (Feb 6, 2016)

candc said:


> There is no price listed for the 70-200 yet. I am thinking Sony is trying to ease the shock of the $3500+ price tag. The existing A mount 70-200 2.8 is $3000



I agree. The A-mount version has no IS, so logically the price of the new lens will be higher. Interestingly, there are only 5 reviews of the A-mount lens (introduced October 2013) on B&H, while there are 2,536 reviews of Canon f2.8 IS II (introduced August 2010). Maybe the new Sony will be the be-all and end-all of 70-200s, but the Canon is pretty phenomenal, and if Sony doesn't price it in line with the Canon, I suspect people will continue to adapt the Canon to E-mount.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 7, 2016)

I thought IBIS was the most innovative and best implementation of stabalization out there, so how come the 70-200 needs Optical SteadyShot Image Stabilization?

Maybe Canon and Nikon actually knew what they were doing all along.........


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## candc (Feb 7, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> I thought IBIS was the most innovative and best implementation of stabalization out there, so how come the 70-200 needs Optical SteadyShot Image Stabilization?
> 
> Maybe Canon and Nikon actually knew what they were doing all along.........



Ibis seems to give you a couple stops improvement and a stabilized image in the viewfinder. Nice to have for lenses that don't have "is" but having it built into the lens seems to be better for telephoto lenses and you have panning mode. The two together are supposed to have a cumulative effete with native lenses but if your adapted lens has "is" then ibis is switched off.


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## msm (Feb 7, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> I thought IBIS was the most innovative and best implementation of stabalization out there, so how come the 70-200 needs Optical SteadyShot Image Stabilization?
> 
> Maybe Canon and Nikon actually knew what they were doing all along.........



Not all Sony cameras have ibis. Also along some axes, ibis is less effective on long lenses as the sensor can't move enough (just think how little a tilt of 1 degree constitutes in a 125 degree fov image at 11mm compared to for instance a 600mm with ~4degree fov).

So what Sony does on some lenses is to combine ibis with optical stabilisation to use the best of both worlds.


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## Ozarker (Feb 8, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > 1) Forgive me for posturing -- I didn't start this thread as a cause to bolt, flip, migrate, or happy dance. I just find the offering a step towards a Sony having a more fully fleshed out lens portfolio.
> ...



Yup, but I just had a look and the A7rII looks much more comfortable to carry around than the Canon.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 8, 2016)

dilbert said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > 1) Forgive me for posturing -- I didn't start this thread as a cause to bolt, flip, migrate, or happy dance. I just find the offering a step towards a Sony having a more fully fleshed out lens portfolio.
> ...



How about a 'let's stop taking pictures afte a couple of hours because of the a7RII's poor battery life." :


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## Orangutan (Feb 8, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



Just bring extra batteries.

The point holds, though: the a7RII's weight advantage is most significant with the body cap in place.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 8, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Yeah, that was addressed in the original comparison. In dilbertland there's no need for extra batteries, because the a7RII is powered by a cold fusion cell good for billions of shots.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 8, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> How about a 'let's stop taking pictures afte a couple of hours because of the a7RII's poor battery life." :



It's not that bad provided you diligently disable the display when you aren't actively using it (I have a button mapped). I've never carried more than 1 extra battery, and I've never run out of batteries. 

That being said, as much as some people would like to write position papers on adapted lenses and the AF system, it isn't an action camera. If you use it as such (buffer out chasing birds or athletes), it won't last long.


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## PhotographyFirst (Feb 8, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Or just pretend they are film canisters and be amazed at how they can carry a couple more than 36 shots per roll.


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## jrista (Feb 9, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > How about a 'let's stop taking pictures afte a couple of hours because of the a7RII's poor battery life." :
> ...



I never had any problems with the A7r when i was using it. It is extremely easy to just power off the camera, and I just got in the habit of doing that every time I was done with a shot or series of shots. One battery last me over a day.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 9, 2016)

jrista said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



The displays are the heavy hitters when the camera is idling. The EVF is off when you aren't looking through it, and toggling the rear monitor off is easy. My camera sleeps after a couple minutes anyway, which is pretty much as good as powering down. 

Another consideration: turn on airplane mode. WIFI sucks it down.


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