# Canon EOS-1D X Mark II To Be 22mp [CR3]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 8, 2016)

```
<p>One of the big questions we all wanted to know, is what is the pixel count on the EOS-1D X Mark II is going to be? We’re told from a very reliable source that we’re looking at a newly developed 22mp sensor for the EOS-1D X Mark II. 22mp is in the range we expected and adds 4mp over the EOS-1D X.</p>
<p>The camera is in late stage testing and some production has started.</p>
<p>More to come…</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## pwp (Jan 8, 2016)

That sounds fine to me. There are lots of photographers hoping for the sensor to be in the 22-24 Mp range. Not only is this in alignment with high performance expectations, but also high iso expectations. This is shaping up as a year of great releases.

-pw


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## Maximilian (Jan 8, 2016)

pwp said:


> That sounds fine to me. There are lots of photographers hoping for the sensor to be in the 22-24 Mp range. Not only is this in alignment with high performance expectations, but also high iso expectations. This is shaping up as a year of great releases.


+1 

Now I hope that Canon is staying in similar region a with the 5D4 sensor.


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## expatinasia (Jan 8, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> The camera is in late stage testing and some production has started.



Interesting. Perhaps they have started production of the bodies, surprised there is still testing going on though.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 8, 2016)

expatinasia said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > The camera is in late stage testing and some production has started.
> ...



Likely firmware testing. If they're producing some units, the hardware was design-locked some time ago.


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## pedro (Jan 8, 2016)

Maximilian said:


> pwp said:
> 
> 
> > That sounds fine to me. There are lots of photographers hoping for the sensor to be in the 22-24 Mp range. Not only is this in alignment with high performance expectations, but also high iso expectations. This is shaping up as a year of great releases.
> ...



*and why not provide the same sensor in the 5D4?* is it so undoable? ...*back in the day film was the sensor*...there was enough variation in tech and built of the cameras, though. No one would have come to the conclusion to provide you or to force you to buy a lesser quality film...that's something I still cannot grasp :-\


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## Maximilian (Jan 8, 2016)

pedro said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > pwp said:
> ...


pedro, I am 100% with you.
I am the first one - and I also stated that already in this forum - that would really welcome the same sensor in 1DX2, 5D4 and 6D2. For the IQ, for the price, for much more reasons. I'm fine with 22 MP and I don't need that MP race anymore. Others need/want more, and they can get it with other bodies.

Problem is:
Canon didn't use the same sensor in two current FF models at the same time lately (except 5D2 and 1Ds3, if you want to call that lately). So I expect - but don't want - the 5D4 to get a different FF sensor.


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## bluntforcetrauma (Jan 8, 2016)

I am thinking of possibly trading in my 1DX for the II. Is the increase of 4MP along with ISO warrant a possible trade?


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## Viggo (Jan 8, 2016)

???


bluntforcetrauma said:


> I am thinking of possibly trading in my 1DX for the II. Is the increase of 4MP along with ISO warrant a possible trade?



I can't imagine that would be a reason to trade. But when we see it with official specs, I know that if you have the funds, it will be worth it for a lot of reasons.


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## expatinasia (Jan 8, 2016)

bluntforcetrauma said:


> I am thinking of possibly trading in my 1DX for the II. Is the increase of 4MP along with ISO warrant a possible trade?



A bit early for that question. Best to wait to see what the entire specs are and whether the whole package would be useful to you over what you currently have.


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## jeffa4444 (Jan 8, 2016)

I think Canon will definately provide two different sensors for the 1DX II and the 5D IV but I dont think Canon will go over 30MP for the 5D IV. Its possible they will also have a different sensor for the 6D MKII just as they have currently.


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## Memdroid (Jan 8, 2016)

bluntforcetrauma said:


> I am thinking of possibly trading in my 1DX for the II. Is the increase of 4MP along with ISO warrant a possible trade?



If you crop a lot it could just be enoug to make a difference


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## kaihp (Jan 8, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



Firmware and/or software for sure. It's not unheard to have regional logistics centers to do firmware updates on products they have in stock.
DAMHIK :-X


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## bluntforcetrauma (Jan 8, 2016)

expatinasia said:


> bluntforcetrauma said:
> 
> 
> > I am thinking of possibly trading in my 1DX for the II. Is the increase of 4MP along with ISO warrant a possible trade?
> ...



Thank you, will do.


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## pedro (Jan 8, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> I think Canon will definately provide two different sensors for the 1DX II and the 5D IV but I dont think Canon will go over 30MP for the 5D IV. Its possible they will also have a different sensor for the 6D MKII just as they have currently.



If so, then I could imagine to make my buying decision AFTER the 6DII is released. Be that early 2016 I don't mind. As in the case of the 5DIII/6D situation I then hope that the MP count differs by two Mega less pixels from the 5DIV...! 8) Although I hope they keep it at 24 MP with the 5DIV and use a higher MP count in the 6DII as it was mentioned earlier in this forum.


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## PureClassA (Jan 8, 2016)

Not going to be the same sensor. The 1DX2 will have the much more costly and sophisticated DPAF variety at 22-24MP. The 5D4 will have a 24-28MP sensor I don't suspect will be DPAF. Both however will likely enjoy the new on-chip Column Parallel ADC process. 



 Maximilian said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > Maximilian said:
> ...


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## PureClassA (Jan 8, 2016)

Honestly, with a 6D2, I think a LOT of folks would be very happy if they just KEEP the same sensor and significantly upgrade the AF capability to what the 5D3 is now. I think the 6D sensor currently is a real gem for an "entry level" FF DSLR. Get 1-2 more FPS out of it. Basically, make it what a 5D3 is now (minus the bigger, tougher body) but with the 6D sensor and bingo. They will have a real winner there for $1499.



pedro said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > I think Canon will definately provide two different sensors for the 1DX II and the 5D IV but I dont think Canon will go over 30MP for the 5D IV. Its possible they will also have a different sensor for the 6D MKII just as they have currently.
> ...


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## PureClassA (Jan 8, 2016)

Agreed. If this sucker is already on the assembly line, announcement could come any moment. I'm curious if they wait all the way to CP Plus in Japan which is last 2 days of February, or if they do a singular announcement beforehand. With the D5 shipping in March, I wonder if Canon holds off as late as CP+.

Craig? Your thoughts?



neuroanatomist said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...


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## Click (Jan 8, 2016)

pwp said:


> That sounds fine to me. There are lots of photographers hoping for the sensor to be in the 22-24 Mp range. Not only is this in alignment with high performance expectations, but also high iso expectations. This is shaping up as a year of great releases.
> 
> -pw



+1


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## -1 (Jan 8, 2016)

I feel that 24MP should be the low mark on high end cameras today. The highres digital media warants that me thinks... OTOH, you can only get that that's on the market and there are other cams avaible, if you don't need 16fps.


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## -pekr- (Jan 8, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> Not going to be the same sensor. The 1DX2 will have the much more costly and sophisticated DPAF variety at 22-24MP. The 5D4 will have a 24-28MP sensor I don't suspect will be DPAF. Both however will likely enjoy the new on-chip Column Parallel ADC process.



If Canon continues with the DPAF technology, no chance 5D4 is going to miss it imo. Other than that - if not swivel LCD, I hope they introduce a touchscreen though. Came in quite handy with our 70D, more than I initially thought. Also the wi-fi sucks the battery quite fast, there is a place for an optimisation ...


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## PureClassA (Jan 8, 2016)

I'm not convinved Canon would create a 22MP DPAF sensor for the 1DX2 and another 24-28MP DPAF sensor for the 5D4. I think what is more likely is IF Canon goes split 5 body (a 5D4 and a 5DC for cinema as has been previously rumored) that the 5DC will see something akin to a 20MP (or less) DPAF sensor like a FF flavor of the 7D2, which would be more appropriate for a 4K cinema body.



-pekr- said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Not going to be the same sensor. The 1DX2 will have the much more costly and sophisticated DPAF variety at 22-24MP. The 5D4 will have a 24-28MP sensor I don't suspect will be DPAF. Both however will likely enjoy the new on-chip Column Parallel ADC process.
> ...


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## rfdesigner (Jan 8, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> Not going to be the same sensor. The 1DX2 will have the much more costly and sophisticated DPAF variety at 22-24MP. The 5D4 will have a 24-28MP sensor I don't suspect will be DPAF. Both however will likely enjoy the new on-chip Column Parallel ADC process.



If they do go down this path (akin to the sCMOS ANDOR/Hamamatsu sensors) then we're in for a treat.

The sCMOS sensors do 5.5MPIX raw images at 100frames/second and achieve sub 1e readout noise, all at the same time, because the bandwidth of each readout amplifier and ADC is very low so total noise seen by each one is that much less (total noise is proportional to bandwidth)

This would be more than one whole EV improvement in sensitivity, and it should sort out the DR issue too whilst also supporting 4k.

If they've also gone back illuminated, then that could be another half a stop, maybe a touch more.

I wonder if it's too much to concider 2 stops total improvement in real world sensitivity?


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## unfocused (Jan 8, 2016)

Regarding the 5D IV, I'd be perfectly happy with the same 22 MP sensor as the 1Dx (who in their right mind wouldn't be?) But, I suspect for product differentiation purposes, it will be slightly denser, but I hope not over 24-26 MP. 

It would really make more sense for Canon to switch the sensor relationship between the 6D and 5D, putting a 28 MP sensor in the 6D and holding the 5D to 24. The 6D is really better suited for a higher megapixel sensor and the 5D for higher ISO performance. (The 6D is well suited for nature and landscape, while the 5D is more likely to be used for event, wedding and action).

I do wonder how Canon and Nikon can continue to differentiate between their flagship DSLR and their next-in-line body. It seems like the differences are getting less and less and consumers are demanding more and more from each new iteration.


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## PureClassA (Jan 8, 2016)

If the 1DX2 really appears at 22MP, then 24MP makes sense for the 5D4, non DPAF. Since Canon has established the 6 series as the "entry level" I would highly doubt a leap over the 5 series in pixel count. Staying 20-22 would be just perfect but throw in the 5D3 AF system (or a slightly watered down version) since the 5D4 will clearly have a new system.

Don't forget the rumor that with the 5D4 comes a revised 5DS for obvious reasons (production costs). I think if people want higher resolution than 24-26MP, the logical step is to 50. Not 28. Seems like that would be crowding the field too much.



unfocused said:


> Regarding the 5D IV, I'd be perfectly happy with the same 22 MP sensor as the 1Dx (who in their right mind wouldn't be?) But, I suspect for product differentiation purposes, it will be slightly denser, but I hope not over 24-26 MP.
> 
> It would really make more sense for Canon to switch the sensor relationship between the 6D and 5D, putting a 28 MP sensor in the 6D and holding the 5D to 24. The 6D is really better suited for a higher megapixel sensor and the 5D for higher ISO performance. (The 6D is well suited for nature and landscape, while the 5D is more likely to be used for event, wedding and action).
> 
> I do wonder how Canon and Nikon can continue to differentiate between their flagship DSLR and their next-in-line body. It seems like the differences are getting less and less and consumers are demanding more and more from each new iteration.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 8, 2016)

-1 said:


> I feel that 24MP should be the low mark on high end cameras today. The highres digital media warants that me thinks... OTOH, you can only get that that's on the market and there are other cams avaible, if you don't need 16fps.



Damn - you really should have told Nikon that before they went and announced the 20 MP D5. :


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## Gregg (Jan 8, 2016)

All I ever wish for is a high mega pixel sensor with a wide dynamic range in a Pro 1DX body.


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## PureClassA (Jan 8, 2016)

1D body with wide DR = Yes, 1DX2. 1D body with high MP count = No. Gotta get the 5DS for that. I don't see Canon diving into a 1DS4.



Gregg said:


> All I ever wish for is a high mega pixel sensor with a wide dynamic range in a Pro 1DX body.


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## gsealy (Jan 8, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> 1D body with wide DR = Yes, 1DX2. 1D body with high MP count = No. Gotta get the 5DS for that. I don't see Canon diving into a 1DS4.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But that is where the 'rub' is because there is a group of photographers that want more and more FPS. Those guys are out in the field taking thousands of action photos on an assignment and beating the heck out of the 1D. More pixels means more data, which takes more time to write to the card. Anyway, I am thinking that Canon is probably trying to optimize the camera against all these parameters.


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## Ozarker (Jan 8, 2016)

Maximilian said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > Maximilian said:
> ...



I'm thinking it has to do with creating multiple strong revenue streams. With printers, the money (profit) is mostly in the inks and papers.

My guess on DSLRs is that splitting the technological advances allows Canon and others to create extra revenue streams that would not exist (or couldn't survive) if the DSLRs were too similar. It may also allow the companies to run new technologies along different product lines to test how they are received without possibly damaging one product line or another.

That is my speculation. It carries no weight. Someone will come along speaking in an authoritative tone that doesn't know anything either. ;D


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## Ozarker (Jan 8, 2016)

bluntforcetrauma said:


> I am thinking of possibly trading in my 1DX for the II. Is the increase of 4MP along with ISO warrant a possible trade?



Yes, but only if you send me your used 1Dx. ;D


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## Ozarker (Jan 8, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> Not going to be the same sensor. The 1DX2 will have the much more costly and sophisticated DPAF variety at 22-24MP. The 5D4 will have a 24-28MP sensor I don't suspect will be DPAF. Both however will likely enjoy the new on-chip Column Parallel ADC process.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I really wish you'd all remember... it won't be a 5DIV. It will be a 5DX.


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## Maximilian (Jan 8, 2016)

CanonFanBoy said:


> ...
> I really wish you'd all remember... it won't be a 5DIV. It will be a 5DX.


Name it whatever you like if the specs and performance are right


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## Ozarker (Jan 8, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> -1 said:
> 
> 
> > I feel that 24MP should be the low mark on high end cameras today. The highres digital media warants that me thinks... OTOH, you can only get that that's on the market and there are other cams avaible, if you don't need 16fps.
> ...



But Neuro, he used the old English misspelling of "methinks". That makes it all okay and true.


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## Ozarker (Jan 8, 2016)

Maximilian said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


 ;D


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## ahsanford (Jan 8, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> Honestly, with a 6D2, I think a LOT of folks would be very happy if they just KEEP the same sensor and significantly upgrade the AF capability to what the 5D3 is now. I think the 6D sensor currently is a real gem for an "entry level" FF DSLR. Get 1-2 more FPS out of it. Basically, make it what a 5D3 is now (minus the bigger, tougher body) but with the 6D sensor and bingo. They will have a real winner there for $1499.



Yes, folks would be very happy with it, but Canon's going to put the best-in-class 1DX AF system on every sports sideline into _the stripped-down entry-level FF model?_ I honestly can't see that happening. 

The AF system -- alongside video features, MP count, build toughness and burst rate -- are the simple categories that Canon will deliberately hold back performance/functionality in order to entice you to walk up the ladder to a pricier rig.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jan 8, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> 1D body with wide DR = Yes, 1DX2. 1D body with high MP count = No. Gotta get the 5DS for that. I don't see Canon diving into a 1DS4.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I still don't get why Canon doesn't throw a 50 MP sensor -- hell, even the existing 5DS sensor -- into a 1D body. People don't just buy 1D rigs for the best sensors. There's a ton of exclusive 1-series functionality you cannot get in a 5DS, and the old 1Ds camp misses it pretty badly, I'd imagine.

- A


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## bdunbar79 (Jan 8, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > 1D body with wide DR = Yes, 1DX2. 1D body with high MP count = No. Gotta get the 5DS for that. I don't see Canon diving into a 1DS4.
> ...



Hey, you're preaching to the choir. I was a 1Ds3 shooter myself and to me, there still hasn't been a true replacement. I'd love a 1Ds body with a 50 MP sensor, but that obviously isn't going to happen.


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## 9VIII (Jan 8, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > 1D body with wide DR = Yes, 1DX2. 1D body with high MP count = No. Gotta get the 5DS for that. I don't see Canon diving into a 1DS4.
> ...



Better yet, put that price tag to use and give us a 50MP BSI sensor in a 1D body. (or better yet 100MP? Canon has been hinting at the possibility of higher resolution products if sales shows it's a good idea). It may not be much competition for the A7RII but Portrait and event photograpers would probably jump on that like a herd of mice on cheese.


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## ahsanford (Jan 8, 2016)

9VIII said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > I still don't get why Canon doesn't throw a 50 MP sensor -- hell, even the existing 5DS sensor -- into a 1D body. People don't just buy 1D rigs for the best sensors. There's a ton of exclusive 1-series functionality you cannot get in a 5DS, and the old 1Ds camp misses it pretty badly, I'd imagine.
> ...



I'm not asking for an unreasonable thing, though. :

I just think Canon shot itself in the foot by fusing the 1Ds and 1D line into the 1DX. 4 years ago, the highest res sensor Canon had was around 21-22 MP, so telling the 1Ds camp to live with an 18 MP rig was not a huge setback. 

But now, very well funded studio/landscape shooters have a choice of a 50 MP rig _*OR*_ the 1-series goodness. If you are used to a 1-series rig, that's an impossible call to make.

In the era of offering 2 of everything in cameras:


Astro and non-astro
AA filter vs. no AA filter
Nikon's memory card A version and memory card B version

I'm shocked Canon can't justify a high MP count 1-series rig. Other than the sensor, use all the same hardware of the 1DX II and simply slow down the framerate to not choke the buffer. _How hard is that to do?_

(Also, same question for why we can't have a rigid LCD option vs. a tilt-screen option, but that's OT.)

- A


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## PureClassA (Jan 8, 2016)

Well that system is now 4 years old and is being replaced with whatever the 1DX2 brings. The 5D4 will also see some variety of it too, which means so will a new 5DS revision. At that point, the 61AF system now in the 5D3 becomes "old hat" (relatively speaking, of course), and could find itself (or some slightly watered down version) in a 6D2 with 5FPS. Remember, that system a dedicated processor on the 1DX. You wouldn't have that on the 6D2 either.



ahsanford said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, with a 6D2, I think a LOT of folks would be very happy if they just KEEP the same sensor and significantly upgrade the AF capability to what the 5D3 is now. I think the 6D sensor currently is a real gem for an "entry level" FF DSLR. Get 1-2 more FPS out of it. Basically, make it what a 5D3 is now (minus the bigger, tougher body) but with the 6D sensor and bingo. They will have a real winner there for $1499.
> ...


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## PureClassA (Jan 8, 2016)

Yeah, but how many of those can they expect to sell with a 5DS/R? It was a different era with the 1DS3. Obviously Canon is trying to specialize models, and I don't see how the money guys could find justification for another 50MP body that's double the price. I dont think there's enough market out there to split the 1D line.

That being said, Canon may opt to add a few key 1 series features to the 5DS like AF point linked metering etc... I dont think a 5DS will in any way ever eat into 1DX sales, so sharing features there is moot.



ahsanford said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...


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## ahsanford (Jan 8, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> Well that system is now 4 years old and is being replaced with whatever the 1DX2 brings. The 5D4 will also see some variety of it too, which means so will a new 5DS revision. At that point, the 61AF system now in the 5D3 becomes "old hat" (relatively speaking, of course), and could find itself (or some slightly watered down version) in a 6D2 with 5FPS. Remember, that system a dedicated processor on the 1DX. You wouldn't have that on the 6D2 either.



You are correct, the spread/point count for the 1DX and 5D3 is the same but the 1DX has more 'AF-horsepower' in use. But my 5D3 AF system is far more capable of anything I need it to do -- I don't shoot sports/wildlife, rarely shoot in servo, etc. It's a stellar AF system.

My point is this: *nothing about the 6D2 line should be "far more capable of anything I need it to do"* -- as a 'gateway' FF rig, users should take wonderful shots with it but often run up to its limits and want something more. Canon does not want the entire prosumer / well-funded enthusiast camp delighted with a 6D2 so much as content.

The 6D line exists for two reasons: selling more EF glass, and building up the stable of future higher-end FF rig purchasers. Enthralling/delighting (not sure of the figure for entry level FF) some 25-30% of the FF market with a rig that does everything they'll ever need is absolutely not in Canon's best interests.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jan 8, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> I dont think a 5DS will in any way ever eat into 1DX sales, so sharing features there is moot.



Agree it's not a huge number of shooters.

But disagree on the 5DS not stealing 1DX business.

The old studio/landscape 1Ds camp could be loosely broken into two buckets from what I've read:


"I use the highest quality rig with the best feature set": 1-series goodness > MP Count


"I want the highest resolution rig I can get and still use EF lenses": MP Count > 1-series goodness

That second group _already left the 1DX for a 5DS_ as it was their only option other than waiting.

- A


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## PureClassA (Jan 8, 2016)

Duly noted. So take the watered down approach. The current 6D has 11AF (which is just far too few. I think this was really too stingy). Give us 45AF or 24AF all cross type. Hell, the T6 and 70D have 19AF all cross type. I think the 6D should be at least a step up from that apart from just a FF sensor.



ahsanford said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Well that system is now 4 years old and is being replaced with whatever the 1DX2 brings. The 5D4 will also see some variety of it too, which means so will a new 5DS revision. At that point, the 61AF system now in the 5D3 becomes "old hat" (relatively speaking, of course), and could find itself (or some slightly watered down version) in a 6D2 with 5FPS. Remember, that system a dedicated processor on the 1DX. You wouldn't have that on the 6D2 either.
> ...


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## PureClassA (Jan 8, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> That second group _already left the 1DX for a 5DS_ as it was their only option other than waiting.
> - A



And now that the ship has clearly already sailed, how do get to the poop back in the horse? I don't think you do. I just don't see how Canon's market has space for 2 High MP cameras priced at $3000 and $6000. Now maybe if Canon develops a 100MP BSI sensor exclusive to a 1DXS4 or whatever.... but now we're REALLY reaching here anytime in the forseeable future. :


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 8, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> I still don't get why Canon doesn't throw a 50 MP sensor -- hell, even the existing 5DS sensor -- into a 1D body. People don't just buy 1D rigs for the best sensors. There's a ton of exclusive 1-series functionality you cannot get in a 5DS, and the old 1Ds camp misses it pretty badly, I'd imagine.



That sounds like a 1D X / 1D Xs scenario, which was the 1D / 1Ds...and Canon made what seemed to be a definitive decision to merge the lines.


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## YuengLinger (Jan 8, 2016)

22MP seems the sweet spot for a true pro body. IQ, rapid fire, manageable file sizes. 

Photographers who actually take advantage of machines this good know how to frame and do not need to crop down to 10% of the frame. Huge prints possible with 22MP, excellent detail for prints and big screens...

Go, Canon, go!


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## tpatana (Jan 8, 2016)

I approve this resolution. I'll allow Canon to use "Tero Approved(R)" stamp on the 1DX2 box.

Now just hoping the high-ISO is even better than 1DX.


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## ahsanford (Jan 8, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> That sounds like a 1D X / 1D Xs scenario, which was the 1D / 1Ds...and Canon made what seemed to be a definitive decision to merge the lines.



That's exactly what it is. But Canon would have more equitably merged the lines at a higher MP count. 

With the 1DX...
1D users lost their 1.3x crop (a big deal!)
1Ds users lost detail

Looks good at face value in 2012 terms, but now, the 1DX brand is synonymous with action/wildlife/sports far far far more than it is with studio/landscape use. So I'd argue the 1DX user base has hung on to the 1D camp far better than the 1Ds camp, and Canon might be wise to split the lines again -- they are leaving a healthy upcharge on the table for every prior 1Ds person that bounces to the 5DS.

PureClassA makes a fair point that those that have left may not snap up a same-sensored 1-series variant of a 5DS, however. Perhaps it _does_ need to be a yet higher MP sensor (or better 50 MP sensor) to draw them back.

- A


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## PureClassA (Jan 8, 2016)

I'll admit, I'd rather 24 than 22, but 22 would be fine. 24 would just get me a bit extra cropping ability with that great 1D high ISO performance I need when I shoot dance recitals.



YuengLinger said:


> 22MP seems the sweet spot for a true pro body. IQ, rapid fire, manageable file sizes.
> 
> Photographers who actually take advantage of machines this good know how to frame and do not need to crop down to 10% of the frame. Huge prints possible with 22MP, excellent detail for prints and big screens...
> 
> Go, Canon, go!


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## pedro (Jan 8, 2016)

unfocused said:


> Regarding the 5D IV, I'd be perfectly happy with the same 22 MP sensor as the 1Dx (who in their right mind wouldn't be?) But, I suspect for product differentiation purposes, it will be slightly denser, but I hope not over 24-26 MP.
> 
> It would really make more sense for Canon to switch the sensor relationship between the 6D and 5D, putting a 28 MP sensor in the 6D and holding the 5D to 24. The 6D is really better suited for a higher megapixel sensor and the 5D for higher ISO performance. (The 6D is well suited for nature and landscape, while the 5D is more likely to be used for event, wedding and action).
> 
> I do wonder how Canon and Nikon can continue to differentiate between their flagship DSLR and their next-in-line body. It seems like the differences are getting less and less and consumers are demanding more and more from each new iteration.



So would I


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## bdunbar79 (Jan 8, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > That sounds like a 1D X / 1D Xs scenario, which was the 1D / 1Ds...and Canon made what seemed to be a definitive decision to merge the lines.
> ...



I'll take it a step farther and say that I actually am considering using a 1Dx/5Ds combo for sports. And it has to do with cropping, as I am unable to crop some photos that I would like to keep with 18 MP's, even with a 400mm lens. If I had the 5Ds for that shot and was in pretty good light, I could crop it and use it. It doesn't happen too often, but I guess for me it's just something for more convenience.


----------



## sanj (Jan 8, 2016)

bluntforcetrauma said:


> I am thinking of possibly trading in my 1DX for the II. Is the increase of 4MP along with ISO warrant a possible trade?



Well. No.


----------



## helpful (Jan 8, 2016)

I think the 22 MP choice Canon made is perfect.

Every bit of the extra resolution provided will be extremely useful in better accomplishing our photographic objectives.

And within the constraints of current technology, the amount of possible added benefit from resolution beyond 22 MP would be far overwhelmed by the damage it would do to the DR and ISO performance.

I love it.


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## bdunbar79 (Jan 8, 2016)

helpful said:


> I think the 22 MP choice Canon made is perfect.
> 
> Every bit of the extra resolution provided will be extremely useful in better accomplishing our photographic objectives.
> 
> ...



I agree, except where I would use a 5Ds is in situations where ISO is 100-400 and I cannot move locations. I CAN get shots in that situation where with the 1Dx I can't. It's minimally useful I agree, but I am also using the 5Ds in other situations anyways (not sports).


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## Diltiazem (Jan 8, 2016)

If Canon is going to use an all new sensor with on chip ADC and other goodness in 1DX II, it would make sense for them to use the same sensor in 5DIII and 6D successors to keep the production cost down as opposed to using same sensor technology with different MP counts. No?


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## ahsanford (Jan 8, 2016)

Diltiazem said:


> If Canon is going to use an all new sensor with on chip ADC and other goodness in 1DX II, it would make sense for them to use the same sensor in 5DIII and 6D successors to keep the production cost down as opposed to using same sensor technology with different MP counts. No?



You are talking rationally about doling out 1-series goodness to cheaper brand levels. Sometimes, Canon actually does this -- the 5D3/7D2 AF systems are a great example.

But then there are other things to deliberately protect the brand identity / exclusive appeal of the 1-series to keep the price up. Spot metering at any AF point, for instance. Sensors as well. Metering for sure.

It's a game. Give the 5D line too little and people freak out and leave the fold. Give the 5D line too much and you won't sell as many 1D cameras. No greater example of this being a very very very tough call is 4K -- it's 100% common sense to put it on the 5D4 if it's possible to do so (heat/hardware-wise), but it's also 100% business sense to withhold it from the 5D4 to tent up 1D sales.

- A


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## Diltiazem (Jan 8, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Diltiazem said:
> 
> 
> > If Canon is going to use an all new sensor with on chip ADC and other goodness in 1DX II, it would make sense for them to use the same sensor in 5DIII and 6D successors to keep the production cost down as opposed to using same sensor technology with different MP counts. No?
> ...



I understand that they need to differentiate the product lines. But they still can do it by using the same sensor in their 3 upcoming FF cameras. I was wondering if this strategy will keep the production cost down, especially because the new sensor will be more costly to produce than the older ones.


----------



## pedro (Jan 8, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Diltiazem said:
> 
> 
> > If Canon is going to use an all new sensor with on chip ADC and other goodness in 1DX II, it would make sense for them to use the same sensor in 5DIII and 6D successors to keep the production cost down as opposed to using same sensor technology with different MP counts. No?
> ...



I understand well your argumentation, but it's exactly just this that makes me think back on the film days...there was one and the same sensor for everyone...built, bells and whistles as mentioned earlier on, were different though...I still think, Canon should provide the same sensor at least, or go for a 4.5k USD body by manufactering a stripped down version of it...3D or 4D to prevent from confusion...? less fps and stuff, less rigid built, same IQ
On the other hand, Nikon is offering 4K in a crop body, so...
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/4531466610/top-5-hands-on-with-nikon-d500?slide=9


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 8, 2016)

Diltiazem said:


> I understand that they need to differentiate the product lines. But they still can do it by using the same sensor in their 3 upcoming FF cameras. I was wondering if this strategy will keep the production cost down, especially because the new sensor will be more costly to produce than the older ones.



Yes. They _could_ do something like this with an identical sensor:

1DX II = 22 MP + new AF system + 12/14 fps + 4K + integral grip + exclusive 1-series goodies

5D4 = 22MP + same new AF system + 8 fps 

6D2 = 22 MP + better than 6D1 AF system + 5 fps + a lovely camera strap


But I think each camp would be pretty butt hurt for doing that:

1DX II users want a hell of a lot more exclusive stuff than a grip + 4K + high burst for $3k more.

The 5D4 camp is gunning for more pixels than the high fps monster sitting up top, and many want 4K

The 6D2 camp wants a proper AF system


Getting the tiers / value propositions right is dicey and delicate. I'm sure Canon marketing has been torturing that for some time. I think it will be different sensors between the 1DX II and the others, but I can't peg 4K. I still think Canon may put 4k on the 5D4 secretly and only unlock it via firmware if sales tank without it.

- A


----------



## deleteme (Jan 8, 2016)

bluntforcetrauma said:


> I am thinking of possibly trading in my 1DX for the II. Is the increase of 4MP along with ISO warrant a possible trade?



While I am certain the new camera will be superb, I hardly think that it would be worth the trade. 

However that is me. I said the 5DmkIII was not worth the upgrade. Then I used one. Now I have three. :


----------



## cosmopotter (Jan 8, 2016)

pedro said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > pwp said:
> ...


----------



## cosmopotter (Jan 8, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> I think Canon will definately provide two different sensors for the 1DX II and the 5D IV but I dont think Canon will go over 30MP for the 5D IV. Its possible they will also have a different sensor for the 6D MKII just as they have currently.



Yeah, I'm pretty sure it will be 24-28MP to outperform the D750. The 6D Mk II could get the current 5D Mk III's 22MP sensor. That's pretty much what they did with the original 6D, which was quite similar to the 5D Mk II.


----------



## Diltiazem (Jan 8, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Diltiazem said:
> 
> 
> > I understand that they need to differentiate the product lines. But they still can do it by using the same sensor in their 3 upcoming FF cameras. I was wondering if this strategy will keep the production cost down, especially because the new sensor will be more costly to produce than the older ones.
> ...



I think both 1DX and 6D camp will be happy with 22MP, but 5DIII camp probably will want more than 22. That probably will be the reason my assumption won't materialize. Yeah, it's a difficult one for Canon.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 8, 2016)

pedro said:


> ...it's exactly just this that makes me think back on the film days...there was one and the same sensor for everyone...



Quite the opposite – back in the film days, you could have one camera and many sensor options...lots of difference between Velvia 50 and Tmax P3200.


----------



## cosmopotter (Jan 8, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> If the 1DX2 really appears at 22MP, then 24MP makes sense for the 5D4, non DPAF. Since Canon has established the 6 series as the "entry level" I would highly doubt a leap over the 5 series in pixel count. Staying 20-22 would be just perfect but throw in the 5D3 AF system (or a slightly watered down version) since the 5D4 will clearly have a new system.
> 
> Don't forget the rumor that with the 5D4 comes a revised 5DS for obvious reasons (production costs). I think if people want higher resolution than 24-26MP, the logical step is to 50. Not 28. Seems like that would be crowding the field too much.
> 
> ...



It wouldn't be unlike Canon to not engage in the NUMBER of focus points battle, but to have less with more + types and DPAF. They don't seen interested in that particular pissing match with Nikon.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 8, 2016)

Diltiazem said:


> I think both 1DX and 6D camp will be happy with 22MP, but 5DIII camp probably will want more than 22. That probably will be the reason my assumption won't materialize. Yeah, it's a difficult one for Canon.



Throw 4K on to that list and you can see why the 5D4 is the most-obsessed-over spec list camera out there. There are equal numbers of folks saying "I don't 4K on my 5D4" as there are "I'm leaving if 4K isn't on it". 

Alongside the MP count, the 4K call is really big one for Canon. I think 12-18 months ago they were set on leaving 4K as an upmarket feature in the 1-series and Cinema lines, but now 4K offerings are coming out of the woodwork -- Panasonic and Samsung's mirrorless has it, Sony's A7 line has it, and now -- critically, it's sitting in a top end APS-C rig for Nikon.

Videographers (of which I am not) can completely and correctly dismantle the quality / fine print of those who are selling 4K elsewhere, but the bottom line is that it's mere inclusion on a spec sheet at release helps move units. 

So, I believe 'To 4K or not 4K' on the 5D4 is toughest call of the last few years for Canon. Protect the 1-series money or consider 4K an expectation at the 5D level and put it onboard? We shall see.

- A


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## PureClassA (Jan 8, 2016)

I think 4K is more of an after thought for the DX2 to satisfy market appearances. While I DO believe video/cinema guys will buy a 5 body for 4K, I DONT believe they are doing the same in a 1 body. If the 1DX2 didn't include 4k, I don't think Canon would see any difference in sales. If the 5D4 were to exclude 4K however, I think it would be far more detrimental to sales compared to having it. There's a proven market appetite at that level for quality video capable DSLRs and MILCs.



ahsanford said:


> Diltiazem said:
> 
> 
> > I think both 1DX and 6D camp will be happy with 22MP, but 5DIII camp probably will want more than 22. That probably will be the reason my assumption won't materialize. Yeah, it's a difficult one for Canon.
> ...


----------



## mclaren777 (Jan 8, 2016)

Maximilian said:


> I am the first one - and I also stated that already in this forum - that would really *welcome the same sensor in 1DX2, 5D4 and 6D2*.


That would be fantastic!


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## applecider (Jan 8, 2016)

22 MP sounds great and would be enough for me to dip into 401k to buy. What we don't know is how the high iso performance will be, if we can get 22 MP and a true 1-1.5 stops of better high iso performance then I'm all in. I don't care about the higher frame rate, tho it would be nice to maintain the current 12-14 fps.

We also don't know what the card format will be. And for those calling for a 50MP D body, think about the throughput that say 6-9 fps would require at those MP counts. To me it does not seem trivial to build the 50MP D body camera and make it worthwhile over the 5DSR.

On the other hand and also rumored today is the SL1 news. I love my little SL1, it's light responsive and small enough to carry hiking. Give it a better autofocus system and 24 MP with a tad better iso performance and I'll have to get that too, of course at the price for refurbs, it was also a great christmas present for my kids.


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## applecider (Jan 8, 2016)

Oh yeah and I really want to see what the 4x10^6 iso images turn out. Got to be better than the Nikon


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## Diltiazem (Jan 8, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Diltiazem said:
> 
> 
> > I think both 1DX and 6D camp will be happy with 22MP, but 5DIII camp probably will want more than 22. That probably will be the reason my assumption won't materialize. Yeah, it's a difficult one for Canon.
> ...



My feeling is that 4K is more important for 5D IV than it is for 1DX. Look at Nikon. They have a better implementation of 4K in D500 than D5. The idea probably is that 1DX/D5 crowd are more interested in performance, still IQ, ruggedness etc than 4K. On the other hand 5D series being the most popular camera for event photography will have more demand for 4K. And I don't think addition of 4k to 5DIV will have any significant impact on 1DXII sales. I could be very wrong in my assumptions though.


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## pedro (Jan 8, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > ...it's exactly just this that makes me think back on the film days...there was one and the same sensor for everyone...
> ...



I see your point! I also tried Tri X, Ilford, Kodachrome back in the day- although I prefered Fuji over Kodak for its more blueish tint...And man, leaving for a 15 day vacation in France from Switzerland where I live, carrying 12 packages for 36 frames of slide film each, that was something! 8)


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## Don Haines (Jan 9, 2016)

pedro said:


> I see your point! I also tried Tri X, Ilford, Kodachrome back in the day- although I prefered Fuji over Kodak for its more blueish tint...And man, leaving for a 15 day vacation in France from Switzerland where I live, carrying 12 packages for 36 frames of slide film each, that was something! 8)


yes..... I remember those days before a memory card could hold thousands of pictures.....


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## ewg963 (Jan 9, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> Honestly, with a 6D2, I think a LOT of folks would be very happy if they just KEEP the same sensor and significantly upgrade the AF capability to what the 5D3 is now. I think the 6D sensor currently is a real gem for an "entry level" FF DSLR. Get 1-2 more FPS out of it. Basically, make it what a 5D3 is now (minus the bigger, tougher body) but with the 6D sensor and bingo. They will have a real winner there for $1499.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 IF they upped the sensor on the 6D you would get nary a complaint from me however it's a good entry level FF.


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## mkabi (Jan 9, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Throw 4K on to that list and you can see why the 5D4 is the most-obsessed-over spec list camera out there. There are equal numbers of folks saying "I don't 4K on my 5D4" as there are "I'm leaving if 4K isn't on it".
> 
> Alongside the MP count, the 4K call is really big one for Canon. I think 12-18 months ago they were set on leaving 4K as an upmarket feature in the 1-series and Cinema lines, but now 4K offerings are coming out of the woodwork -- Panasonic and Samsung's mirrorless has it, Sony's A7 line has it, and now -- critically, it's sitting in a top end APS-C rig for Nikon.
> 
> ...



To be honest, its already too late for Canon...
SO many options out there... no one is literally left. Only the loyalists that invested in so many glass...
Go on to Magic Lantern's site and see what is new... and you will understand.
Nobody is working on the 7D Mark II, I was so excited when they (Magic Lantern) found some code that accessed 4K memory... but I got excited too early... Because all the developers moved on... they literally left. Sony is really tempting right now.

As for me... it really depends on what kind of 4K vs. having 4K on the 5D4 for me.
I'd rather have Cinema 4K (wider resolution) as opposed to the UHD that the rest of them are offering.
That, plus 10bit 4:2:2 HDMI out and high frame rates at 1080p without cropping. And, a whole suite of video capabilities like focus peaking, zebras, etc.

Literally, thats what you have to do keep me with Canon right now... else... I'm going to maintain my future plan of investing in Sony stuff... I mean... yeah.... yeah... yeah... Sony menu is crap... blah... blah... blah...
Sony service is crap.... Stuff I'll have to deal with if my clients are asking for 4K.


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## scyrene (Jan 9, 2016)

mkabi said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Throw 4K on to that list and you can see why the 5D4 is the most-obsessed-over spec list camera out there. There are equal numbers of folks saying "I don't 4K on my 5D4" as there are "I'm leaving if 4K isn't on it".
> ...



YAWN


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## Diltiazem (Jan 9, 2016)

mkabi said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Throw 4K on to that list and you can see why the 5D4 is the most-obsessed-over spec list camera out there. There are equal numbers of folks saying "I don't 4K on my 5D4" as there are "I'm leaving if 4K isn't on it".
> ...



Well, the loyalist base seems to be very large and stable. 'So many other options' either have no impact on the market or going out of market (NX1). 

Sky has fallen on only few Canon photographers, it seems.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 9, 2016)

mkabi said:


> To be honest, its already too late for Canon...
> SO many options out there... no one is literally left.



Yep, no one left except the majority of ILC buyers in the world. Somehow, Canon will survive without you.


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## Orangutan (Jan 9, 2016)

mkabi said:


> Literally, thats *what you have to do keep me with Canon right now*



I'm curious: why do you assume that everyone makes their decisions based on the same criteria that you use? Has it occurred to you that your needs may not be representative of the market as a whole?


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jan 9, 2016)

mkabi said:


> To be honest, its already too late for Canon...



From your signature, it appears you own two copies of one of canon's most recent cameras, a prosumer model at that. 

Somehow I think they'll do okay.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 9, 2016)

pedro said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > pwp said:
> ...



Canon has seen the 5D4 as a tool for different usage from the 1 series, it was originally developed as a Wedding Camera and had a higher pixel count for portraits. I have no issue with 22 mp, but expect a higher count for the 5D MK IV.

Its not about sensor quality, but about the target user.


----------



## unfocused (Jan 9, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Canon has seen the 5D4 as a tool for different usage from the 1 series, it was originally developed as a Wedding Camera and had a higher pixel count for portraits. I have no issue with 22 mp, but expect a higher count for the 5D MK IV.
> 
> Its not about sensor quality, but about the target user.



I think that's sort of the point. The current megapixel count for the 5DIII is more than sufficient for its user base. For those that need higher resolution, Canon provides that with the 5DS. 

Satisfied with the current resolution, many of those same users are looking for improved ISO performance and other sensor performance enhancements. The current 5DIII is certainly no slouch when it comes to ISO performance, but many users, if given the choice between more megapixels and improved ISO performance, would now choose the improved ISO performance. I don't shoot weddings, but I do shoot a lot of events and meetings in dark rooms where flash cannot be used and where every bit of extra ISO performance is welcome. 

I don't expect Canon will re-use the same sensor as the 1DX II, although I'd be fine with that. As I said previously, what would make the most sense would be to give the 5DIV a 24 mp sensor and then go up to 28 mp for the 6DII.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 9, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> mkabi said:
> 
> 
> > To be honest, its already too late for Canon...
> ...



Dude... Seriously? What sales figures have You been looking at? Canon is wrecking everyone else by leaps and bounds and there's no sign of that changing. Clearly the bulk of the photography world doesn't revolve around your whims. Not trying to be flippant, but making such a statement will get you snapback of reality around here.


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## Perio (Jan 9, 2016)

dilbert said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Everything that costs more than $1000 (camera, lens, tripod, etc) is a niche market. How many people do you expect to buy $3k SONY/Nikon camera to significantly affect the Canon's market share? I mean we're talking probably about 0.01% of all users. Another question is how many people would want to dump their existing Canon gear just for extra 2 stops of DR? Did you do that already? If you did, then why do you care about Canon users? If you did not, then clearly Canon work even for such demanding customers, as you are. 

Sure, based on this and some other forums, everything that millions of people need is greater DR, otherwise we all switch to Sony/Nikon. Guess what, many people still shoot with 5dii and 7d professionally, and they could care less about 4k video or 14 stops of DR.

I hope you guys have as much time to spend with you family as you spend bashing Canon.


----------



## Diltiazem (Jan 9, 2016)

dilbert said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Do you have anything to support your claim? A link would be nice. 

I have already picked up some salt as Canon and Nikon are the only two companies known have been making profit in photography business for last several years.


----------



## davidmurray (Jan 9, 2016)

-1 said:


> I feel that 24MP should be the low mark on high end cameras today. The highres digital media warants that me thinks... OTOH, you can only get that that's on the market and there are other cams avaible, if you don't need 16fps.



Disagree.
My view is that "high end" cameras should be about image quality, reliability, accuracy, durability, and speed.

Even a cellphone can give you 20 megapixels.


----------



## Viggo (Jan 9, 2016)

davidmurray said:


> -1 said:
> 
> 
> > I feel that 24MP should be the low mark on high end cameras today. The highres digital media warants that me thinks... OTOH, you can only get that that's on the market and there are other cams avaible, if you don't need 16fps.
> ...



You have the 5dsR for absolute resolution. Wonder what a 1dx with 14 fps would look like, weigh and cost if it were as good at 51200 iso and had 50mp res.


----------



## pedro (Jan 9, 2016)

Viggo said:


> davidmurray said:
> 
> 
> > -1 said:
> ...



How good is the current 1Dx at ISO 51k handheld? My ex-5D3 delievered quite decent photographs at ISO 12800 (streetlight at night) and ISO 25600 (good outdoor lights as well) but at 51K it surely didn't cut the mustard anymore...


----------



## Viggo (Jan 9, 2016)

pedro said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > davidmurray said:
> ...



Does tripod or handheld matter?

I haven't used 51200 to much, not because of noise, but even at fast speeds (I like to shoot 1/1000s and faster always) I haven't encounter that useless light for 51 to be needed with my fast lenses.

I expose heavily to the right and find 51 much better than getting a motion blurred, cleaner 12800 shot.


----------



## FEBS (Jan 9, 2016)

davidmurray said:


> Disagree.
> My view is that "high end" cameras should be about image quality, reliability, accuracy, durability, and speed.
> 
> Even a cellphone can give you 20 megapixels.



+1

Fully agree on that. That are the most important values for the 1-serie


----------



## davidmurray (Jan 9, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> mkabi said:
> 
> 
> > To be honest, its already too late for Canon...
> ...



I have to ask: what is it that people see a DSLR good for in doing video. I mean, with the 5D4 zooming is only manual, and the ergonomics (which are great for stills photography) are crap for video, and there is a limitation to how long each video can be before either it stops recording or it breaks the file into segments.


----------



## mb66energy (Jan 9, 2016)

davidmurray said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > mkabi said:
> ...



Video is an emerging part in online magazins. Think about a reporter in a "crisis zone" (war, natural disaster) who produces photographs with a hardened and reliable tool (e.g. EOS 1 Dx) and can do video to capture the dynamics of moments without changing the tool.
I see an increasing need for the single photographer to diversificate his/her portfolio of "art"work.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 9, 2016)

dilbert said:


> Except that Canon's profits are heading down faster than anyone else's.





dilbert said:


> Diltiazem said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have anything to support your claim? A link would be nice.
> ...



Then look at Nikon's 1H2016, where both y/y sales and operating profit fell more than Canon, proving for the umpteenth time that dilbert wouldn't know a fact if it bit him on the ass. :


----------



## gsealy (Jan 9, 2016)

davidmurray said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > mkabi said:
> ...



The big thing for me is that I can use a variety of lenses. I use camcorders also, but the DSLR allows me to add variety and interest to the production. The DSLR is also light and can work easily on a jib or a slider.


----------



## Eldar (Jan 9, 2016)

I will most likely buy this camera, regardless of it being a D5 killer or not, probably more due to my weak character and curiosity than actual need.

Considering what I can currently achieve with my 1DX and the fact that resolution will be more or less same same, the areas of importance to me would be AF-system and high ISO noise and DR performance.


----------



## expatinasia (Jan 9, 2016)

Eldar said:


> I will most likely buy this camera, regardless of it being a D5 killer or not, probably more due to my weak character and curiosity than actual need.
> 
> Considering what I can currently achieve with my 1DX and the fact that resolution will be more or less same same, the areas of importance to me would be AF-system and high ISO noise and DR performance.



Eldar, I very much doubt you have a weak character, you simply want the best.

And we all know that whatever Canon does with the 1DX II, it will be better than the 1DX. 

Exciting times lie ahead.


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## Orangutan (Jan 9, 2016)

davidmurray said:


> I have to ask: what is it that people see a DSLR good for in doing video. I mean, with the 5D4 zooming is only manual, and the ergonomics (which are great for stills photography) are crap for video, and there is a limitation to how long each video can be before either it stops recording or it breaks the file into segments.



I have to assume you're a serious videographer. If so, and if you make your living from video, I can see how you would choose gear that precisely fits each aspect of your need. On the other hand, integration of video in DSLRs is largely about democratization of video capability. While the ergonomics and handling may not be ideal for a true pro, it's possible for enthusiasts, amateurs and aspiring videographers to create a final product that's indistinguishable from that done with dedicated pro gear. 

By analogy, when you look at a photo, either print or electronic, you can't tell whether the photographer edited with PS CC, PS Elements, GIMP or any other graphical tool; you also can't tell if the work was done on an old, wobbly Mac, or a bright, shiny new Windows 10 machine with 32GB of RAM and dual GPUs. Similarly, while the ergonomics, convenience, speed differ, the quality of the final product of DSLR video is largely limited by the skill and dedication of the user.


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## expatinasia (Jan 9, 2016)

davidmurray said:


> I have to ask: what is it that people see a DSLR good for in doing video. I mean, with the 5D4 zooming is only manual, and the ergonomics (which are great for stills photography) are crap for video, and there is a limitation to how long each video can be before either it stops recording or it breaks the file into segments.



Not everyone is making a Hollywood movie. DSLRs are capable of taking great video. I shoot with the 1D X a lot and I love the fact that I can use different lenses with it and also use it - and the same lenses - for the stills work I need to do.

I am on and off planes a lot, I have a lot of cables with me as I record audio via XLR to an external recorder and have loads and loads of other stuff to carry, but I would have even more if I had a stills camera and a DLSR plus other stuff.

Yes, a DSLR - even a 1D X - is not good in certain situations and you screw up (not the camera) but you learn and in future adapt.


----------



## K (Jan 9, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> Now maybe if Canon develops a 100MP BSI sensor exclusive to a 1DXS4 or whatever....




There's a point of diminishing returns with increasing megapixels. Already at 50mp, the 5DS does not resolve as well as an equal megapixel medium-format camera.

It will take large leaps and bounds in sensor technology to achieve the same kind of image quality in 35mm. Several generations worth of sensors.

The 5DS is the best 35mm sensor ever made for detail - but 50mp has been proved to produce far more detail and better images than the 5DS can put out. By the time 50mp on 35mm has the fullest quality 50mp can give, MF will use the same tech advances to jump ahead even further.

Upping the mp to these densities does help....but less and less.

100mp is probably no benefit in 35mm until tech leaps are made. 

Going from a 22 or 24mp to a D810 then a 5DS you see jumps in detail for sure. The return in IQ on megapixels spent isn't where it ought to be.

Already the 5DS uses a shock absorbing shutter mechanism and a reinforced body to increase stability to try and get the most out of the resolution. MF shooters don't even use tripods, they mount their cameras in studio. Otherwise, camera vibration negates all that money spent to be able to resolve the finest details possible.

Yes, it is always said even in the past that a limit was reached in practicality. People said who needs more than 12mp? But it wasn't. Today though, it is getting closer. The same way 8K TV will be a sort of limit for a long time. When you get to the point that more pixels does not translate to visually noticeable detail, you've reached a limit. Human vision has a limit.

For any kind of non-mounted shooting, 36mp is about the max practical. What tech in the future can mitigate that? Sensor image stabilization can help. But there's nothing better than being stationary.

So yes, there is a visually confirmable practical limit to MP in photography that has likely been reached in 35mm.

Advancements going forward are better concentrated on more DR, better ISO performance, better color etcetera...rather than upping the MP. Again, to make any use of MP count that high - the camera has to be mounted. Otherwise, motion is blurring those super-fine details those extra megapixels are trying to resolve.

Output is another factor. 8K is around 33MP? People have put their face up against 8K screens at shows and could not make out pixels. Output like that will be able to show 1:1 full screen images coming from every DSLR out there except for 3 of them.


I digress a bit. The point is, in 35mm such extreme megapixel counts as well as the fact that 35mm is a DSLR, not a mounted studio camera all the time, means that it is pointless to go beyond 50mp for a long, long time.

But hey, marketing means specs have to continually be high.

More megapixels. More ISO. Look at the absurd Nikon marketing with their new cameras... 1M and 3M ISO? Give us a break.


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## PureClassA (Jan 9, 2016)

davidmurray said:


> I have to ask: what is it that people see a DSLR good for in doing video. I mean, with the 5D4 zooming is only manual, and the ergonomics (which are great for stills photography) are crap for video, and there is a limitation to how long each video can be before either it stops recording or it breaks the file into segments.



Because it can be a very capable cinema camera with the right tools and in the proper hands in a very compact lightweight body. The majority of the entire film "Act of Valor" (that was a major Hollywood release) was shot on a small fleet Canon 5D MkII DSLRs, Zeiss primes, and the 70-200 2.8 IS Mk II. More recently, a dozen or so 5D MkIIs were used in making Mad Max Fury Road as crash cams. Extreme examples. But there are also LOADS of small independent film guys that love using DSLRs and MILCs. There's a healthy market out there for it, but Canon will attend to it more in the 5 series than the 1 series however. You can get around all those limitations with things like external recording and/or Magic Lantern.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 9, 2016)

K said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Now maybe if Canon develops a 100MP BSI sensor exclusive to a 1DXS4 or whatever....
> ...



The sensor tech has been used for years to enable 200+ MP 135 sensors, just look at phone cameras and small sensored P&S's that easily out resolve all 135 and medium format sensors on a per area basis.

That fact also undermines your point about needing to mount that kind of pixel dense camera for sharp results, nobody uses phones and P&S cameras on a tripod (well maybe one or two, but a statistical irrelevance) but the images they produce are not always blurry.

Whilst other aspects of image quality might need more help than MP numbers, there is no doubt we are nowhere near _"a visually confirmable practical limit to MP in photography that has likely been reached in 35mm."_


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## Mantadude (Jan 9, 2016)

[/quote]


I have to ask: what is it that people see a DSLR good for in doing video. I mean, with the 5D4 zooming is only manual, and the ergonomics (which are great for stills photography) are crap for video, and there is a limitation to how long each video can be before either it stops recording or it breaks the file into segments.
[/quote]

There are many many applications that a dslr for video is useful. It's frustrating to see people question it, because ultimately it makes your stills cameras cheaper. More of a market, the more aggressive on pricing they can get. Also, when it comes time to sell your camera, again, more people that may want to buy it...higher resale. It has also created a revolution of creative artists that would have otherwise not spent the money for a dedicated video camera. It's good for everyone. Even if you don't use it. Heck, when I bought my laptop for some photo and video editing, it does a ton of other things I will never even touch. 80% of its features probably. But some people will, and they have to add that to make it appeal to a broad user base. Makes total sense. The camera industry is very similar. But yet people get upset with video even being in there...it is crazy.

My main use for my 5dII is underwater videography. The cost to buy an underwater housing for a RED or a C series camera is ridiculous. $2000 vs. $20k. That's on top of the camera and lenses. A dslr is small for travel, and for space on small boats. Canon also has no competition to underwater white balancing....nobody is even close. Canon color for underwater is incredible. I would have switched to Sony as their cameras have a lot to offer, but they can't white balance under 10 feet...terrible. There are so many features that make them appealing, but if the color looks bad, what's the point. 

I really don't need the capability of the 1dxII, but I want to move to 4K and hopefully 60fps...with better low light. Dpaf will also be helpful. I really wish that the 5d4 would have all of that, as I don't need stills that shoot 15fps...nor do I want the big body of the 1dx. But I am considering it. 

Btw....I take less than 2000 stills a year with my camera. It is mainly a video rig. My wife on the other hand, has the same camera. And she takes over 30000 still a year, with no video. Pretty cool to have that flexibility.


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## Perio (Jan 9, 2016)

Attention to "professional" CR forum members, who value every 0.1 DR. 
Please check the largest panoramic image (Guinness World Record) http://www.in2white.com/making/
Taken by ... Canon 70d, with old low DR Canon sensor, which is a reason why Canon gets bankrupt in a few years.


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## bescki (Jan 9, 2016)

I am waiting for it, I will compare to nikon d5. So I will decide which one to buy.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 9, 2016)

Perio said:


> Attention to "professional" CR forum members, who value every 0.1 DR.
> Please check the largest panoramic image (Guinness World Record) http://www.in2white.com/making/
> Taken by ... Canon 70d, with old low DR Canon sensor, which is a reason why Canon gets bankrupt in a few years.



If you down sample that into DXO world then it has approximately 742 stops of DR : 

That means the 70D has 727 stops more DR than a Sony/Nikon Exmor sensor and about 100 more stops than the DXO One.


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## WillT (Jan 9, 2016)

Perio said:


> Attention to "professional" CR forum members, who value every 0.1 DR.
> Please check the largest panoramic image (Guinness World Record) http://www.in2white.com/making/
> Taken by ... Canon 70d, with old low DR Canon sensor, which is a reason why Canon gets bankrupt in a few years.



There are some large stitching errors in that photo, I am really surprised they did not fix those before they published.


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## Don Haines (Jan 9, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> Perio said:
> 
> 
> > Attention to "professional" CR forum members, who value every 0.1 DR.
> ...


 I don't think that it works like that..... DXO would still score the One higher......


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## Diltiazem (Jan 9, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Except that Canon's profits are heading down faster than anyone else's.
> ...



Yes, my point about dilbert's assertion was *faster than anyone else's*.
We know Canon's profit margin has shrunk in recent years, but at least they are making profit (along with Nikon). Other's are not so lucky and there is no evidence that Canon's profit margin is going down faster than anyone else's.


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## 9VIII (Jan 9, 2016)

K said:


> Already the 5DS uses a shock absorbing shutter mechanism and a reinforced body to increase stability to try and get the most out of the resolution. MF shooters don't even use tripods, they mount their cameras in studio. Otherwise, camera vibration negates all that money spent to be able to resolve the finest details possible.



http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-5Ds.aspx


> This is the 5Ds change with the biggest learning curve. The old 1/(focal length) rule to determine one's shortest shutter speed for handholding (without the aid of image stabilization) no longer works. Many use the 1/(focal length * 1.6) rule to determine APS-C handholdable speeds. This formula uses the 1.6 factor matching the APS-C sensor angle of view difference, but the higher pixel density of the APS-C imaging sensors is the real reason the faster speed has been needed. The same rule or, better yet, 1/(focal length * 2) is a better base estimate for handholding the 5Ds bodies.



There is no magic barrier where all of a sudden higher resolution becomes useless handheld, unless you're talking about pixels so small that the camera shutter can't go fast enough. But even then Canon could implement a purely digital readout that can go into tens of thousandths of a second.
Anyone using an APS-C sensor over 38MP is going to have exactly the same problem.
Speaking of which, practically speaking I would much rather have a 50MP crop body than 100MP full frame. If we're talking about our dreams for the future then I want a Gigapixel Medium Format body, but for now a BSI 50MP sensor could be put on APS-C without unreasonably increasing the cost. It could be the "7DS", a high end crop body for people who want more resolution.
Yes, faster shutter speeds make conditions more challenging, but Macro has always been a challenge, half the point is that people who do that kind of thing love to push technology to its limits (at least that's part of the reason I love shooting Macro).
Just give me the tech and I'll figure out what to do with it.


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## K (Jan 10, 2016)

For years, many 1DX shooters, had a wish that their camera would just have a little more ooumph when it came to megapixels. They've never wanted a lot, due to file size and other work flow issues - but just a little more for better cropping. They dreamed of a 1DX with 5D3 megapixels.

Well, Canon listened and that is what they're getting.

22 is a very good sweet spot. The 5D3 has been a beast in the pro realm putting out great IQ for a wide range of uses. On a 1DX2, it will be even better.


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## pharding (Jan 10, 2016)

What Canon desperately needs to do is to develop sensors that rival Nikon and Sony. My recently released 5DS R has very mediocre dynamic range compared to my Sony a7R II. The difference is very noticeable using identical lenses in identical conditions.


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## davidmurray (Jan 10, 2016)

pharding said:


> What Canon desperately needs to do is to develop sensors that rival Nikon and Sony. My recently released 5DS R has very mediocre dynamic range compared to my Sony a7R II. The difference is very noticeable using identical lenses in identical conditions.



Are you able to put Canon lenses on your Sony camera?

Why would Canon want to slum it by using a Nikon sensor? The 5D3 is one of the very best cameras ever made.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 10, 2016)

pharding said:


> What Canon desperately needs to do is to develop sensors that rival Nikon and Sony.



Or else. Or else, what? Exactly.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 10, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> expatinasia said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



This close to a announcement, there are pre-production units around that Canon "Makers of Light" are testing, and writing their reviews boasting how good it is. Those reviews will almost always be positive. The few that were not resulted in the reviewer being black listed by Canon.

I would not link IQ and performance to specifications or hype - not for any camera. You never hear about any negatives until they get into the hands of unbiased reviewers and get considerable real-life usage.

The other issue is that some are wanting a high end model for the wrong reasons. Cameras are targeted at different types of users, buying the most expensive one can be a mistake if it does not fit your usage. 

If 22MP is not enough, you may be looking at a camera that is just plain not intended for your photography. As for 4K... I'm not going to comment.


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## wockawocka (Jan 10, 2016)

I loved my 1DX but it was too heavy so compromised and used the 5D3 instead until the 5DSr came out.

Looking beyond dynamic range I think the next shoe to drop will be buffer and speed. I mean the 7Dii and the D500 aside from having a crop sensor have phenomenal potential for fast capture. 10fps vs 6? Makes a lot of difference even at weddings for the first kiss, aisle walk and confetti through not to mention ambient first dance shots.

I hope Canon don't cripple the 5D4 buffer. With the 5DSr able to shoot 18 frames continuous at 50mp, I would hope they'd give us 8fps at least with a mid 20's sensor. While they're there, give us a 60 frame buffer.

I sometime think they don't 'really' poll real users as to what they should add or change. I've a decent list of things they could of done better but chose not to with the 5DSr which might well of just been a case of firmware or spending a few dollars on more ram.

The frustrating thing is that Canon are not stupid yet they don't cater properly for one of the biggest pro segments of DSLR users - Wedding togs. We can't run around all day with 2 x 1DX's.

We shoot moments, we need fast get out of jail free options like being able to assign a different preset shooting mode to a button like with the 1DX. We got something like that with the 5DSr but it's only based around the shooting mode you'll currently be in. What a waste of a feature.

We really also need L series mid aperture primes. Like an 85mm, 35mm, 50mm 1.8L series of glass. I love my L glass but after a brief stint with the excellent Nikon D750 (Which broke after 2000 frames I might add lol) I did get to experience the 35 50 and 85 1.8G designated glass which was better than the Canon versions. Most noticeably the 85 1.8.

Weight and speed are an issue for many, the business I work in, wedding photography, is no longer a rock up at the ceremony and stay until the first dance thing. It's a 10am - close affair. The difference between 1.4 and 1.8 glass is notable noth in weight and how much space it takes up in my lens bag. I do miss using the D750 with an 85G on. But the build quality was questionable.

I don't need 1.4 but I do need the best quality 1.8 glass. Only Nikon seem to of catered for this so far.


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## pedro (Jan 10, 2016)

davidmurray said:


> pharding said:
> 
> 
> > What Canon desperately needs to do is to develop sensors that rival Nikon and Sony. My recently released 5DS R has very mediocre dynamic range compared to my Sony a7R II. The difference is very noticeable using identical lenses in identical conditions.
> ...


*I second that.*


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## Reality Merely Illusion (Jan 10, 2016)

wockawocka said:


> I loved my 1DX but it was too heavy so compromised and used the 5D3 instead until the 5DSr came out.
> 
> Looking beyond dynamic range I think the next shoe to drop will be buffer and speed. I mean the 7Dii and the D500 aside from having a crop sensor have phenomenal potential for fast capture. 10fps vs 6? Makes a lot of difference even at weddings for the first kiss, aisle walk and confetti through not to mention ambient first dance shots.
> 
> ...




Yes buffer is one of the most overlooked things by Most camera companies.
I hope this forces Canon to improve their buffers (which are all as sad as the nikons buffers were until the d4)
That would make them even better tools!


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## rbr (Jan 10, 2016)

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a 28mp 1 series camera. That would give it the same pixel density as the 1D MarkIV. Until that happens, I can't see parting with last remaining Mark IV. There are times when the 1.3x crop is just too useful. Otherwise the current 1DX suits me just perfectly for my uses and I don't need a faster shutter or higher ISO's considering the price the 1DXII will be released at. If the new 5D goes up to 28mp and the shutter speed also goes up to at least 8 frames per second then I would seriously give that a look. If not, I still like my combination of the 1DX and 1D4. Everyone has their own needs.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 10, 2016)

rbr said:


> ...the current 1DX suits me just perfectly for my uses and I don't need a faster shutter or higher ISO's considering the price the 1DXII will be released at.



Probably the same for me. One stop of ISO improvement, 1-2 fps and 4 MP aren't enough of an improvement for me. A two stop ISO improvement would get me considering – a real two stops based on noise comparisons, not changes in the specs for native range or extra expansion (the latter is useless to me anyway).


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## tron (Jan 10, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> rbr said:
> 
> 
> > ...the current 1DX suits me just perfectly for my uses and I don't need a faster shutter or higher ISO's considering the price the 1DXII will be released at.
> ...


I do not have 1Dx. I do have 2 5D3s. So 1DxII will be probably almost 2 stops better for me. This is quite tempting. I'll wait to see what improvements 5D4 will bring but I will be tempted since I use up to ISO 10000 for landscape astrophotography.


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## Neutral (Jan 10, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> rbr said:
> 
> 
> > ...the current 1DX suits me just perfectly for my uses and I don't need a faster shutter or higher ISO's considering the price the 1DXII will be released at.
> ...


I also wish 2 stops real ISO improvement but afraid that maximum that we could expect is about 1 stop. 
So far let's hope for the better.
Hope that 1DX II would be better in this respect than Sony long awaited a9 which might be announced some time later after 1DX II.


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## heptagon (Jan 10, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> rbr said:
> 
> 
> > ...the current 1DX suits me just perfectly for my uses and I don't need a faster shutter or higher ISO's considering the price the 1DXII will be released at.
> ...



2 stops of ISO improvement? Not going to happen. Physically not possible.


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## ahsanford (Jan 10, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> rbr said:
> 
> 
> > ...the current 1DX suits me just perfectly for my uses and I don't need a faster shutter or higher ISO's considering the price the 1DXII will be released at.
> ...



Does anyone ever buy a rig based on a manufacturer's published ISO limits?

Does Canon or Nikon even publish how they set those limits, like 'highest ISO values determined by acheiving X SNR with shots taken in Y conditions'? I'm not aware of that happening, so I generally completely disregard ISO claims / max allowable levels and just wait for proper test shots compared against what I currently shoot.

- A


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## PhotographyFirst (Jan 10, 2016)

heptagon said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > rbr said:
> ...



For sport shooters shooting in JPEG it might be beneficial to have better in-camera noise reduction. Otherwise for RAW shooting, I agree. The most that we could expect is maybe 1 stop with a sensor with perfect quantum efficiency. Very unlikely with the current tech. 

I must be the only person alive today who still is impressed that digital sensors are so good at higher ISO levels as it is. I never shot over ISO 800 when I used film, so being able to shoot at ISO 6400 and 12800 reliably is still impressive to me.


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## tpatana (Jan 10, 2016)

I've always said I love the 1DX size. Earlier few times I shot video with my 5D3 with a cage-thingy. I recently sold the 5D in anticipation of price drop for used after 1DX2 and 5D4 are announced. Yesterday for the first time I was planning to use 1DX with the cage, but it didn't fit. The body is too tall for the cage.

#FWP


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## Reality Merely Illusion (Jan 10, 2016)

It's bound to be another great camera, I wonder about the AF system, If anything will change

A nice unexpected surprise would be launching a 1mkiv successor along side the 1dxII.

An 18-20mp 1.3crop sensor with the ISO performance of the 1dx


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 10, 2016)

Limited BIF experience and only with a 1D4 - found that my shots at ISO 640 were generally very good but when I bumped up to 800 the increase in noise was obvious, given generally some cropping. I needed higher ISO to get to higher shutter speeds but was reluctant to give up the IQ. My point is that I was shooting consistently at a point where a little better ISO and a few more MP would have been very helpful (assuming less than ideal lighting).

Not having the 1DX, I can't judge but from comments on CR it seems some folk feel that they are also at a tipping point where a little more could be seriously helpful. True or not?

Jack


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## john1970 (Jan 10, 2016)

PhotographyFirst said:


> heptagon said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



There is at least one more person that is impressed by today's digital sensor technology. I remember very fondly when using 400 ISO film was considered fast and as you pointed out today I readily shoot ISO 6400 (4 fold higher) without any reservations.

Cheers,

John


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## Don Haines (Jan 10, 2016)

john1970 said:


> PhotographyFirst said:
> 
> 
> > heptagon said:
> ...


Add another one to the list.....


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 11, 2016)

Count me in, although I often pushed Tri-X 400 a stop during development and I occasionally shot T-MAX P3200.


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## Don Haines (Jan 11, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Count me in, although I often pushed Tri-X 400 a stop during development and I occasionally shot T-MAX P3200.


Yup.... T-MAX-3200 and Kodachrome25.....


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## Ryananthony (Jan 12, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > rbr said:
> ...





I didn't think so, but that was until I read the comments from the nikon guys when the d5 was announced. Im not exactly sure what they were expecting from anything near that 3.2 million iso. unfortunately with the way they were talking, they are going be really down.


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## PureClassA (Jan 12, 2016)

Ryananthony said:


> I didn't think so, but that was until I read the comments from the nikon guys when the d5 was announced. Im not exactly sure what they were expecting from anything near that 3.2 million iso. unfortunately with the way they were talking, they are going be really down.



I used to sell and install a lot of upper end audio and video gear back in college. I remember laughing over some spec sheets and trying to explain to customers that a 100w amplifier isn't always really 100w. Usually it would begin with people listening to some expensive piece of gear and then eyes glazing over when I say "Well this is a 50w so-and-so amp" when they realize it cranks out more power to the speakers than their 100w cheaper system at home. Wattage is almost subjective as to their measurements because different manufacturers rate it differently, particularly in terms of how much THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) is allowed to reach their measurement. Getting 100 watts if your tolerance for THD is 1% is vastly easier and cheaper as opposed to say 0.1% THD. I suppose the same holds true for visual noise as it is audible distortions. "Yeah the D5 can do ISO 3.2M, but it looks like sh!t." And that doesn't necessarily translate to any notably better performance as lower ISOs, just it wouldn't on amplifier at lower powers.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 13, 2016)

PureClassA, I guess I'm getting pretty dense in my old age. It just registered - class A - like my old 100W X 2 Bryston amp that sits there pumping out the bass and keeping the house warm at the same time. Now if I could just understand all the photo concepts as well!

Jack


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## PureClassA (Jan 13, 2016)

YES!! Bingo!! I still own a wonderful set of Krell. a KBL PreAmp. MD10 & 64X CD Transport and DAC and the KSA-250 Pure Class A operation amplifier. You have deciphered my secret ;D PS - Don't ever sell that Bryston stuff. They made fantastic Amps.



Jack Douglas said:


> PureClassA, I guess I'm getting pretty dense in my old age. It just registered - class A - like my old 100W X 2 Bryston amp that sits there pumping out the bass and keeping the house warm at the same time. Now if I could just understand all the photo concepts as well!
> 
> Jack


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## Ozarker (Jan 15, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Well that system is now 4 years old and is being replaced with whatever the 1DX2 brings. The 5D4 will also see some variety of it too, which means so will a new 5DS revision. At that point, the 61AF system now in the 5D3 becomes "old hat" (relatively speaking, of course), and could find itself (or some slightly watered down version) in a 6D2 with 5FPS. Remember, that system a dedicated processor on the 1DX. You wouldn't have that on the 6D2 either.
> ...



Doesn't that assume that Canon makes more profit on the 1Dx line than the 6D line? 

I'd like to know the margins on both and the number of bodies sold from each. There probably isn't a way to know that. 

Maybe a prospectus from a shareholder could tell us. Are there any shareholders here? 

I'd bet that there are far, far more 6D cameras sold than 1Dx cameras. The price of each has nothing to do with the profit margin, especially when volume of sales is taken into account. 

The 6D buyers can and do buy high end glass like the 1Dx owners. How many jump up to the 1Dx? Not many, I would think.


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## PureClassA (Jan 15, 2016)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Doesn't that assume that Canon makes more profit on the 1Dx line than the 6D line?
> 
> I'd like to know the margins on both and the number of bodies sold from each. There probably isn't a way to know that.
> 
> ...



I don't think we need a full profit and loss from Canon to determine that the 6D sells many more copies than a 1DX. Besides, a P&L isn't going breakdown revenues by specific product, only by product line:

http://www.canon.com/ir/results/

ANd while there may be a greater dollar margin of profit in a 1DX, the volume of sales of a 5D3 by comparison is much higher and yields more dollar profit than the 1DX. I'm not sure about 6D, but I'd imagine they also generate more dollar profit in total volume than a 1DX there too.


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## Ozarker (Jan 16, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Doesn't that assume that Canon makes more profit on the 1Dx line than the 6D line?
> ...



Yup.


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 16, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > rbr said:
> ...


No, they don't have to because the values are based on an international standard: http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=37777


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 16, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Does the ISO standard specify noise (which was the point ahsanford was making), or only exposure?


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 16, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



It does, but it's a fair point because manufacturers more likely use saturation than SNR in their ratings.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 16, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



To be more clear, does the ISO standard specify a limit on that noise? It was my understanding that the standard specifies the method by which an ISO exposure value shall be determined (several methods, actually, although not all are always applicable). AFAIK, it does not specify an 'acceptable' level of noise or SNR that determines the maximum amount of gain a manufacturer can apply, it only specifies how the gain should be related to output brightness for consistency. Also, as I understand it the most relevant of the methods, the only one that applies to the evaluative/matrix metering that is default on most cameras, relies upon a gain/exposure relationship that is arbitrarily determined by the manufacturer.


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 16, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



It defines acceptable and excellent signal to noise ratios (10 and 40, respectively).


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 16, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> It defines acceptable and excellent signal to noise ratios (10 and 40, respectively).



Does that mean that the Nikon D5 must deliver at least an acceptable SNR of 10 at ISO 3,280,000?


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 16, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > It defines acceptable and excellent signal to noise ratios (10 and 40, respectively).
> ...



Doubtful. I believe that if it can't match that particular criteria, then the saturation method is used, or they use saturation by default (hence the "fair point" comment above).


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 16, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



Except that based on the standard, the saturation method uses sRGB output from the camera, so it does not apply to RAW. Also, that method is not applicable when matrix metering is used (which is the default for the camera). 

How, then, can Nikon include ISO 3,280,000 and be in compliance with ISO 12232? Does the camera firmware restrict it to TIFF output and a non-matrix metering mode at that ISO? Somehow, I doubt that.


----------

