# More Full Frame Mirrorless Talk, Maybe Some Surprises? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 25, 2018)

```
We seem to be getting information from new places every week now, so please <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/the-canon-rumors-rating-system-explained/">mind the ratings</a> you’re seeing on our most recent posts. However, there are times [CR1] rumors turn out to have some truth to them.</p>
<p><strong>About a new Canon mirrorless:</strong></p>
<ol>
<li>We’re told that a full frame mirrorless will be coming in September.</li>
<li>Canon’s new mirrorless will <strong>NOT</strong> be part of the EOS system, the focus will be on video.</li>
<li>Think EOS 5D Mark IV, but mirrorless.</li>
<li>4K @ 30/25/24 FPS</li>
<li>Codename begins with Z</li>
</ol>
<p><strong>Other Information:</strong></p>
<ol>
<li>New mirrorless lens at Photokina (EF-M 32mm f/1.4?)</li>
<li>New Cinema EOS body coming before Photokina</li>
</ol>
<p>There’s always the possibility that there are multiple cameras are being developed concurrently, and that the above information only covers one of them.</p>
<p>Take this stuff with a grain of salt, but I find some intriguing ideas above that may fit with more cryptic information we’ve received over the last month or so.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## riker (May 25, 2018)

To think of 5d4 mirrorless, but NOT part of EOS - now THAT is going to be a challenging task. wtf.


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## gcl (May 25, 2018)

riker said:


> To think of 5d4 mirrorless, but NOT part of EOS - now THAT is going to be a challenging task. wtf.



Exactly what I was thinking - how do you reconcile that it will be like a mirrorless 5dIV but not part of the EOS system?


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## Fleetie (May 25, 2018)

Maybe the lens won't be interchangeable?

But a 5D4 form factor would seem very large for a fixed-lens camera.


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## sanj (May 25, 2018)

Why make a DSLR form factor with focus on video??? Such form factor cameras are for photography first....


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## -pekr- (May 25, 2018)

If that's not belonging into EOS line, then it's just maybe something like XC15 with interchangeable lens.


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## Etienne (May 25, 2018)

sanj said:


> Why make a DSLR form factor with focus on video??? Such form factor cameras are for photography first....



Whats not to like: Interchangeable lens video camera in a much smaller package. Does both photos and videos well and easily. One camera to do it all reasonably well... Sounds great to me


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## melgross (May 25, 2018)

This opens more questions than it closes. First of all, the 5DmkIV is the guess of this site, right? Secondly, how would this concentrate on video, but not do 4K at 60fps? That’s a real lack.

And no EOS mount, well, we were just discussing that. So is this Canon’s Video mount instead, since it’s more for video? And is the lens mentioned for this, or for their M series, which it seems to be with the M as part of the name?

We’re certainly not expecting the M series mount for full frame.


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## deleteme (May 25, 2018)

If the code name is "Z" and it is video centric, then an extension of the XC-15 concept seems to be the most likely.

IOW not at all interesting for me.


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## tmroper (May 25, 2018)

Canon's video cameras are already mirrorless, and "thinking 5D MK IV" and video only brings to mind the reflex mirror. So none of this makes much sense. Maybe it's more like, think of a Canon C100, but with a full frame sensor and a different form factor?


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## jolyonralph (May 25, 2018)

melgross said:


> We’re certainly not expecting the M series mount for full frame.



Not sure who the "we" is of which you speak, but I think a good % of those who have been paying attention here are expecting exactly that.


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## jolyonralph (May 25, 2018)

Also, be certain that during the run-up to launch we're going to see a LOT of misinformation about these cameras spread online.

Some might be deliberate misinformation leaked by Canon in order to either control expectation or to deceive competitors. 

Some may be simple wishful thinking on behalf of internet fans.

Some may simply be some grain of truth that's been allowed to ferment into a weak beer of wrong assumptions.


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## brad-man (May 25, 2018)

Well, I'm expecting the EF-M 32mm f/1.4 to mount perfectly fine on my M5.


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## Ozarker (May 25, 2018)

sanj said:


> Why make a DSLR form factor with focus on video??? Such form factor cameras are for photography first....



Somebody must have ripped that page out of my copy of the rule book. Can't find it anywhere.


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## transpo1 (May 25, 2018)

tmroper said:


> Canon's video cameras are already mirrorless, and "thinking 5D MK IV" and video only brings to mind the reflex mirror. So none of this makes much sense. Maybe it's more like, think of a Canon C100, but with a full frame sensor and a different form factor?



If true, this is a FF mirrorless HYBRID camera for video AND stills, which is why it may be a still camera form factor. And it is long overdue. 

I will say 4K 60p is needed to be successful against the GH5/s family so hope they include that but literally any hybrid camera that shoots great stills AND great 4K video (no crop, Canon, not hobbled in any way) is most welcome. 

A lot of the photography guys will kick and scream because it's not for them- it's for a different market- and again, if true, Canon has finally caught up in their market research and realized that they need to serve this market.


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## Ozarker (May 25, 2018)

Normalnorm said:


> If the code name is "Z" and it is video centric, then an extension of the XC-15 concept seems to be the most likely.
> 
> IOW not at all interesting for me.



Canon Zorro Mark I


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## dak723 (May 25, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > We’re certainly not expecting the M series mount for full frame.
> ...



Has anyone actually confirmed that an FF sensor can be used with the M mount? All the initial speculation when the M series was launched was that you could not get a big enough image circle for an FF sized sensor on an M camera. Knowing the answer to that question seems to be important for all further speculation.


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## andrei1989 (May 25, 2018)

dak723 said:


> Has anyone actually confirmed that an FF sensor can be used with the M mount? All the initial speculation when the M series was launched was that you could not get a big enough image circle for an FF sized sensor on an M camera. Knowing the answer to that question seems to be important for all further speculation.



to "actually confirm" would mean that someone should sacrifice an M camera and a FF DSLR to rip the sensor from the latter and glue it into the former
the EF-M mount diameter (47mm) is similar to the sony FE mount diameter (46.1), and they put a FF sensor there last i checked


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## Kit. (May 25, 2018)

dak723 said:


> jolyonralph said:
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> 
> > melgross said:
> ...


Is it technically possible to make at least some FF lens for EF-M mount? Yes, there were some FF mounts with a much smaller opening than this one during the film rangefinder era. One of them was an one inch screw mount.

Is it technically possible to use most of the existing EF lenses with not much vignetting in the corners? Very likely, although probably not with the current EF - EF-M converters. Leica M is a slightly narrower mount, but it was still wide enough to have a 50/0.95 lens.

Will the lens adapter needed for EF to EF-M to FF sensor configuration be sturdy and durable enough for field work with heavy long telephoto lenses? That's something that probably needs extensive testing.


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## fullstop (May 25, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> If that's not belonging into EOS line, then it's just maybe something like XC15 with interchangeable lens.



exactly. FF sensored XC-## with EF mount. Video-centric. Not of any interest to vast majority of market. move on, nothing to see.


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## Don Haines (May 26, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Will the lens adapter needed for EF to EF-M to FF sensor configuration be sturdy and durable enough for field work with heavy long telephoto lenses? That's something that probably needs extensive testing.



Remember, once you get into the big whites, it’s not so much mounting the lens on the camera as it is mounting the camera on the lens


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## Kit. (May 26, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Kit. said:
> 
> 
> > Will the lens adapter needed for EF to EF-M to FF sensor configuration be sturdy and durable enough for field work with heavy long telephoto lenses? That's something that probably needs extensive testing.
> ...


Static load for a camera+lens combo on a tripod is by far not the heaviest load suffered by an adapter during its routine [ab]use.


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## melgross (May 26, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > We’re certainly not expecting the M series mount for full frame.
> ...



That would be nuts. The M mount is for an app-c size sensor. It would be, in no way, appropriate for a full size sensor. Why would someone think that work?


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## CanonGrunt (May 26, 2018)

I would be very surprised if the CANON FF mirroless is not focused on Video more than stills. They are going to want to make up opportunity lost to the Sony a7 series and cameras like the GH5.


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## BillB (May 26, 2018)

melgross said:


> jolyonralph said:
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> > melgross said:
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Well, the EF-M has almost exactly the same throat diameter and flange distance as the E mount that Sony is using on its full frame cameras. Since the measurements work for Sony, it doesn't seem unreasonable to think that Canon could use EF-M mount for fullframe mirrorless as well.


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## Don Haines (May 26, 2018)

BillB said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > jolyonralph said:
> ...



and sony gives you more vignetting at longer focal lengths...


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## fullstop (May 26, 2018)

Canon EF-M mount might possibly be "force-fit" for FF [similar to Sony E-mount, involving major design compromises], but it was definitely developed for APS-C only and not with FF in mind. At least that's what the Canon people in charge of EOS M / EF-M said. 



> - Where is the most important factor in developing a new mount called "EF - M"?
> Nakamura: It is a mount diameter that satisfies the APS - C size image circle properly, but also to make it possible to realize small size and light weight. In addition, the operation feeling such as attaching and detaching the lens is designed to be the same as the EF mount.
> 
> - EF-M mount. The mount diameter is also reduced from the EF mount
> ...



http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20120810_551672.html


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## captainkanji (May 26, 2018)

A mirrorless in a 5DIV body would be cool. You could put something like internal ND filters in between the lens and sensor with the saved space. Maybe that's crazy science fiction talk.


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## sanj (May 26, 2018)

Etienne said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Why make a DSLR form factor with focus on video??? Such form factor cameras are for photography first....
> ...



Do you shoot video much? I mean have you shot video with a dedicated video camera? DSLR form factor is for still photos first.


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## Talys (May 26, 2018)

gcl said:


> riker said:
> 
> 
> > To think of 5d4 mirrorless, but NOT part of EOS - now THAT is going to be a challenging task. wtf.
> ...



Maybe because it doesn't LOOK like an EOS?

A video-centric EFM full frame that's like a 5DIV is cool; but whether I'm interested would depend on how much like a 5DIV it is:

1) how well it works as a stills camera
2) how much it works like a 5DIV (the more, the better), and how similar the controls are to it (particularly, the right hand controls)
3) how ergonomically and technically well it works with larger EF lenses

With regards to the video-centric part, it could do a cropped 640x480 1 fps in 8 shades of grey and I'd be ok with it


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## fullstop (May 26, 2018)

Talys said:


> With regards to the video-centric part, it could do a cropped 640x480 1 fps in 8 shades of grey and I'd be ok with it



hehe, you talking 'bout da "4k video" on EOS M50? ;-) ;D

other than that, my video needs are the same as yours. so we are 2 already. and maybe there are millions of other Canon users who also see "video in stills cameras" that way?! ;-)


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## jolyonralph (May 26, 2018)

brad-man said:


> Well, I'm expecting the EF-M 32mm f/1.4 to mount perfectly fine on my M5.



I haven't checked the patents to see if there's been anything posted about this particular lens, but there is of course the possibility at least that this will be the first full-frame EF-M lens. It'll still fit perfectly fine on the M5, and the offset in extra weight will more than be compensated by the extra lightening of your wallet


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## Etienne (May 26, 2018)

sanj said:


> Etienne said:
> 
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> > sanj said:
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I shoot quite a lot of video with dedicated video cameras, and I shoot a lot of photos and video with DSLR/mirrorless cameras. The DSLR and mirrorless format works very well. It is much more portable, especially when compared large sensor video cameras. In fact virtually every videographer that I know uses DSLR/mirrorless form factor cameras for video in addition to dedicated video cameras. You only illustrate you ignorance when you say " DSLR form factor is for still photos first," and you must have been asleep for the past 10 years. Creative professionals are not so narrow minded.


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## CanoKnight (May 26, 2018)

Too little too late. The A7 III is now the gold standard.


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## CanonGrunt (May 26, 2018)

Etienne said:


> sanj said:
> 
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> > Etienne said:
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Yeah, and sometimes you need to get into tight spaces and that’s not as easy on a cinema camera. That was what cinematographers loved about the 5D MK II when it came out. It made a great “C” Cam. I think they went through about 50 of em when they filmed transformers. The memory cards survived, but the 5D not so much. But they did the job in those crash scenes. 

I also know a ton of film students and you tubers that film every day, and they prefer the dslr form factor. They are used to it, and do great work with it, and don’t need a full crew for most of their work. It used to be I saw them all getting the 5D III, and these days it’s all A7’s and GH5s. That’s a lot of people buying those instead of canon, and expressly for video, when you add them all up. 

I have a lot of issues with sony, but they are great in low light. They beat the 5D MK IV there. Personally I’m still hooked on Canon, but they’ll have to improve the video specs to get those customers back.


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## brad-man (May 26, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> brad-man said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I'm expecting the EF-M 32mm f/1.4 to mount perfectly fine on my M5.
> ...



I don't happen to believe that the EF-M mount will be servicing the upcoming Canon FF MILC, so my future purchase of the EF-M 32 is strictly for use on my M cameras with their itty-bitty sensors. If the lens _is_ "compatible" with a FF sensor, then that would give me pause since it would be much larger/heavier/expensive to cover the size of the image circle. As for the weight imbalance, if I had to rely on my wallet to counterbalance my lenses, I would fall down a lot.


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## Talys (May 26, 2018)

brad-man said:


> As for the weight imbalance, if I had to rely on my wallet to counterbalance my lenses, I would fall down a lot.



LOL ;D

Good one!


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## melgross (May 26, 2018)

BillB said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > jolyonralph said:
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It’s still too small. One reason for Canon’s success with EOS was because of the rather large mount. Same thing for their DSLRs. A few mm makes a big difference. I would hope to see a mount that allowed for extreme lens advantages over the coming years, not small ones.

A mount is a major decision. I would like to see Canon do it as well as possible. Let’s not say that Sony’s mount is the best that’s possible.


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## melgross (May 26, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Canon EF-M mount might possibly be "force-fit" for FF [similar to Sony E-mount, involving major design compromises], but it was definitely developed for APS-C only and not with FF in mind. At least that's what the Canon people in charge of EOS M / EF-M said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly! It’s just too small.

Look, if Canon wants to replace their top pro cameras, and they said that they did, just not yet, then they need to have the very best possible mount, not a compromise.

I’m tired of reading that mirrorless means smaller and lighter. There’s nothing wrong with the bigger, and heavier Pro camera bodies now. Many of us prefer that size and weight class.

But to compromise from the very beginning, limits everything for the future. When, eventually, I replace my 5Dmk IV with mirrorless, I want to replace it with something that will be comfortable with my bigger tele’s. We all know that big lenses on small bodies aren’t a good match. So Canon should make something robust.

Canon also makes small, and light DSLRs with the current mount. That means they can do it with a bigger mirrorless mount too. I wouldn’t even argue if they kept the current mount.


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## melgross (May 26, 2018)

CanoKnight said:


> Too little too late. The A7 III is now the gold standard.



I hope you’re kidding. Really.

The Sony is good, but that doesn’t mean it’s a standard of any sort.


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## crazyrunner33 (May 26, 2018)

sanj said:


> Etienne said:
> 
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> > sanj said:
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I've been using the DSLR as a primary video camera for around 8 years now, it's my go to form factor since I started with photography. The Sony and GH5 is is great for run and gun without drawing the attention of a video camera. The IBIS combined with the camera strap allows for smooth interview shots that are hand held. Then I can rig it out for studio work when I need to, or fly it on a Ronin gimbal. 

I'd love to have a 5D with IBIS and a decent codec, the 5D and 7D body feels like a natural extension of my hand. And a smaller rangefinder style camera would work well as a B camera and for low profile run and gun where attention is the last thing you need.


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## fullstop (May 27, 2018)

i am convinced it would be good for Canon if they were to offer some "fully video-enabled" compact/small cameras at much lower prices than their bigger video/cine series cams. but not each and every model in the lineup! for myself i have never and will bever capture video other than for what any smartphone suffices. 

i would really prefer Canon to take a similar approach to Sony's split in A7 / R and /S model versions. But even more radical: one "base" model with no video-out at all at base price, possibly one higher rez stills-only model at a higher price and one fully video enabled "convergence" model - at an even higher price. me - and presumably many other stills shooters would be happy with one of the stills only models, and video folks could put their wallet where their mouth is and get the latter model. if stills plus video is essential to them, perfectly fine - Canon has some models for you. of course additional functionality costs something extra. as always in life. you want more, you pay more. 

what those "4k video has to be in every f*cking camera"-whiners really want is a free lunch: full video capability in each and every camera, PAID FOR by ALL purchasers including the many stills photogs who have no interest whatsoever in (serious) video capture. that's what all this forum and internet "4k-whining" really is all about.


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## BillB (May 27, 2018)

fullstop said:


> i am convinced it would be good for Canon if they were to offer some "fully video-enabled" compact/small cameras at much lower prices than their bigger video/cine series cams. but not each and every model in the lineup! for myself i have never and will bever capture video ither than for what any smartphone suffices.
> 
> i wokld really prefer Canon to take a similar approach to Sony's split in A7 / R and /S model versions. But even more radical: one "base" model with no video-out at all at base price, possibly one higher rez stills-only model at a higher price and one fully video enabled "convergence" model - at an even higher price. me - and presumably many other stills shooters would be happy with one of the stills only models, and video folks could get the latter model. of course additional functionality costs something extra. as always in life. you want more, you pay more.
> 
> what those "4k video has to ve in every f*cking camera whiners" really want is a "free lunch": full video capability in every camera, PAID FOR by all purchasers including the many stills photogs who have no interest whatsoever in (serious) video capture. that's what all this whining really is all about.



The free lunch crowd is a piece of the puzzle. There is also the magic number syndrome, where you need a camera with one or more magic numbers to take ever so much better videos. And then there is the closely related Sony and Panasonic envy. Every Canon needs to have it because the other guys have it. And then there are the plain old Canon bashers. Most of this is just plain old internet buzz, and has very little to do with actual photography. Canon is going to do what Canon is going to do.


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## fullstop (May 27, 2018)

with totally crippled 4k video in the M50, Canon is answering the "magic mumber spec sheeters". a poor compromise: still shooters still have to pay for and live with "video clutter" in the camera and those interested in inexpensive, but fully usable 4k video are also disappointed - and have some legitimate reasons to rant and whine. 

in my opinion a much better aporoach would be to offer 
A.) M50 sans video for 599,- and 
B.) M50v with truly usable APS-C/S35 4k video including serious codec and all other video shenanigans from mic abd headphone ports to whatever video-out connectors, zebras and whatever ... for 999. 

that would be a very competitive and affordable price point for a "convergence product" with large sensor (rather than puny GH5 big body, tiny mFT dwarf sensor), good stills, DPAF, good 4k video, no slapping mirror in lightpath, small form factor, EF compatible mount, Canon colour goodness, Canon UI goodness (rather than Fuji retro-mania), with excellent touchscreen and decent, intuitive menu system (rather than Sony or Oly menu hell). 

and put an immediate end to any sort of legitimate "Canon no 4k"-whining.


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## BillB (May 27, 2018)

fullstop said:


> with totally crippled 4k video in the M50, Canon is answering the "magic mumber spec sheeters". so us still shooters still have to pay for and live with "video clutter" in the camera and those interested in inexpensive, but fully usable 4k video are also disappointed - and have some legitimate reasons to rant and whine.
> 
> in my opinion a much better aporoach would be to offer
> A.) M50 sans video for 599,- and
> ...



Well, at the M50 price point, there are people out there who want some video capability, but not $400 worth of video, and that is likely a significant part of Canon's target market for the M50. Maybe Canon has a guess at how much it would cost them to make a video free M50, and has a guess at how many it could sell. Be that as it may, they decided to go with "crippled" 4K and decent 1080.


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## Durf (May 27, 2018)

BillB said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > i am convinced it would be good for Canon if they were to offer some "fully video-enabled" compact/small cameras at much lower prices than their bigger video/cine series cams. but not each and every model in the lineup! for myself i have never and will bever capture video ither than for what any smartphone suffices.
> ...



It's almost hilarious watching the internet buzz and/or frenzy over mirror-less cameras. You're right, it actually has little to do with actual photography when it comes to the bigger picture of things (no pun intended).

A million people or so freaking out on the internet and thinking that they must no matter what go mirror-less to have the better camera and to take better photos or those that think that if a camera doesn't do 4k that its a piece of junk is a small number when you think that there's probably several 100 million people world wide that just want to take some pictures and perhaps sometimes make a quick home video in which 1080p is just fine for them. Then there's a really small number compared to that that are pro's and know they can get awesome results with the gear that they have right now regardless of what it is.

Canon is targeting those several hundred million casual shooters and the top end pros and not paying much attention to the internet cult of complainers that'll never be happy no matter what they do.


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## Viggo (May 27, 2018)

So the big rumors of Canon “finally stepping up” and putting out a FF mirrorless, and it’s a video camera?? Dear god....


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## dak723 (May 27, 2018)

Durf said:


> It's almost hilarious watching the internet buzz and/or frenzy over mirror-less cameras. You're right, it actually has little to do with actual photography when it comes to the bigger picture of things (no pun intended).
> 
> A million people or so freaking out on the internet and thinking that they must no matter what go mirror-less to have the better camera and to take better photos or those that think that if a camera doesn't do 4k that its a piece of junk is a small number when you think that there's probably several 100 million people world wide that just want to take some pictures and perhaps sometimes make a quick home video in which 1080p is just fine for them. Then there's a really small number compared to that that are pro's and know they can get awesome results with the gear that they have right now regardless of what it is.
> 
> Canon is targeting those several hundred million casual shooters and the top end pros and not paying much attention to the internet cult of complainers that'll never be happy no matter what they do.



Actually, it is probably about 57 people on the internet - not a million - that need mirrorless and 4K. They just post a million times on every photo forum!

And, no doubt, those folks will attack your comments despite their obvious truth!


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## stevelee (May 27, 2018)

BillB said:


> Be that as it may, they decided to go with "crippled" 4K and decent 1080.



What do people mean by crippled 4K? Or do they know what they mean, rather than just passing along something they saw on them interwebs?

They don’t like the compression method, or it’s really only 3.7K, or it won’t open in their video editor because of faulty data, or every other byte is 00101101 or something, or what?

I don’t know whether to write them off as ignorant complainers or conspiracy nuts, or if there is some technical matter I might be interested to know, with some kernel of truth in what they say.


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## Viggo (May 27, 2018)

stevelee said:


> BillB said:
> 
> 
> > Be that as it may, they decided to go with "crippled" 4K and decent 1080.
> ...



They probably mean that it’s severely cropped, and not FF.


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## fullstop (May 27, 2018)

stevelee said:


> BillB said:
> 
> 
> > Be that as it may, they decided to go with "crippled" 4K and decent 1080.
> ...



you should really better read up on the SPECS and FACTS first before lashing out like this.

4k video on the EOS M50 is "highly crippled" in a number of ways. I just link to the dpreview conclusions, all the details are on previous pages and in the text of Canon spec sheet and reviews. You just need to read before you type. 



> * Substantial crop in 4K makes wide-angle shooting nearly impossible
> * No Dual Pixel AF when recording 4K
> * 4K video softer than peers
> * very obvious rolling shutter and 'jello'
> * Digital IS increases video crop even more with noticeable drop in quality


any more questions? 

in case you do want to read up, here's the link: https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-m50/9

or here the relevant section on EOS M50 crippled 4k video:



> As mentioned above, the EOS M50 is the first non-professional Canon camera to capture 4K video. Unfortunately, there are so many tradeoffs that come along with shooting at this resolution that the much-anticipated feature is a major disappointment.
> 
> On the positive side, the camera offers full manual controls, exposure compensation with Auto ISO, and audio level adjustment to go along with its external mic socket.
> 
> ...


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## fullstop (May 27, 2018)

so instead of implementing such cr*ppy video, why not split models into "stills only" and "stills + real video" versions? It would be win-win-win, for stills shooters, for video/convergence folks and for Canon.


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## stevelee (May 27, 2018)

My question was really intended more generally, since I’ve also seen the 4K on the flagship FF models referred to as “crippled.” But, yes, the M50’s implementation doesn’t sound very good from that review. So it would look bad compared to the 4K I shoot on my iPhone? Its sensor is minute even compared to the severely cropped M50, right?


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## Talys (May 28, 2018)

Why is there so much talk of the M50? That is comparing what is probably the cheapest 4k ILC with what with a full frame video-centric enthusiast/semiprofessional offering. 

But anyways:

- anyone who can't shoot wide enough with a 11mm lens, even with the crop, is doing something wrong because pro camcorders can't typically gi wider than that either. 

- crop is a benefit for people who want to get more reach, so one person's loss is anorher's gain. 

- what $750 ILC has 4k dpaf?

- it's $750. Why shouldn't devices that cost more have the possibility of better quality of 4k video?

- what other $750 ILC can do 4k and and has a fully articulating touchscreen?

Just because the M50 isn't the best at everything including price doesn't mean it isn't a great offering. In fact, nothing needs to have the best specs and the lowest price and work the most smoothly. That's just a fantasy of people who want to spend less and get more just because it is technology related.


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## dak723 (May 28, 2018)

stevelee said:


> My question was really intended more generally, since I’ve also seen the 4K on the flagship FF models referred to as “crippled.” But, yes, the M50’s implementation doesn’t sound very good from that review. So it would look bad compared to the 4K I shoot on my iPhone? Its sensor is minute even compared to the severely cropped M50, right?



Folks using the word crippled are obviously trolls or so incompetent with the English language that their comments lose all credibility. People love bashing Canon, that is the jist of it and quoting DPReview is almost laughable as they may be the number 1 Canon critic.

Are their shortcomings with the 4K on the Canon m50 compared to other brands and models - sure. Does that mean it is crippled? Of course not. People and review sites absolutely rave about Panasonic cameras and their 4K despite the 2.6 crop factor of the GH4 and the 2.4 crop factor of the GH7. Canon's crop factor (which at least 3 other sites describe as 2.56 not the 2.7 that DPR gives, will give you a 28mm wide angle with 11-22mm lens. That might not be wide enough for some, but I bet it is plenty wide enough for many. So why not just give the correct info and let others decide it the specs and performance is good enough. My bet is that it will be plenty good enough for many or most folks. So calling it "crippled' is just the type of language propagandists have been using for decades - in other words, BS that shouldn't be welcome here.


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## dak723 (May 28, 2018)

Talys said:


> Why is there so much talk of the M50? That is comparing what is probably the cheapest 4k ILC with what with a full frame video-centric enthusiast/semiprofessional offering.
> 
> But anyways:
> 
> ...



Very well said. Too bad we can't get the trolls to shut up. And the moderators don't have the guts to throw them out. Too bad.


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## BillB (May 28, 2018)

stevelee said:


> My question was really intended more generally, since I’ve also seen the 4K on the flagship FF models referred to as “crippled.” But, yes, the M50’s implementation doesn’t sound very good from that review. So it would look bad compared to the 4K I shoot on my iPhone? Its sensor is minute even compared to the severely cropped M50, right?



For another perspective on M50 video there is Brian Carnathan's review on his "the digital picture" site. https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-M50.aspx

DPR's reference to the supposed lack of sharpness with the M50 (and other Canon)video seems to come from DPR's insistence on using Canon's default settings and not adjusting the camera to improve sharpness.


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## Durf (May 28, 2018)

Talys said:


> Why is there so much talk of the M50? That is comparing what is probably the cheapest 4k ILC with what with a full frame video-centric enthusiast/semiprofessional offering.
> 
> But anyways:
> 
> ...



...it's a given that all new cameras from Canon will be bashed and trashed by certain groups of peoples.

but,

from what I gather that in this price range this M50 might just be the best little compact run and gun 1080p vlogging camera yet, capable of limited 4k, and it also can take great photos.

Personally I'm more of a picture taker than a video maker and this camera is too tiny and not me but I bet it'll sell like crazy to youtubers and those that do like small cameras.

It's almost like an enhanced 80D shrunk down in to a tiny package......


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## fullstop (May 28, 2018)

Again, am ot interested in video capture myself. But 4k recording definitely is "crippled" on the EOS M50. True, it is a lower level, comparatively inexpensive camera, not a hi-end one. But up to now it is the ONLY Canon EOS camera that has 4k video capture (except 1Dc). And by 2018 standards 4k on the EOS M50 sems to be - "underwhelming". or "crippled".

Things are not necessarily better on all comptetive products. Similarly priced and positioned new Fujifilm X-T100 for example has 4k recording only at 15fps. i'd call that "why even bother", "useless" or "more than just crippled".

Same theme on both cameras: "4k" added as a "spec sheet tick box" only, trying to fool not-so-well-informed potential buyers. companies like Canon or Fujifilm should not have to resort to such marketing tactics. why not be honest and offer low-price "base version" with no video-out for stills shooters and "video-enhanced" versions of some cameras - with "fully useable" 4k video capture - at a higher, but still "affordable" price. Instead of "window dressing"? 

That said, EOS M50 is the first EOS M camera to meet my personal criteria to upgrade from my currently used EOS M 1st gen: viewfinder, compact form factor, much better AF, much better IQ and (relatively) "inexpensive". So I am going to get one. For "stills only", of course.


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## MayaTlab (May 28, 2018)

fullstop said:


> so instead of implementing such cr*ppy video, why not split models into "stills only" and "stills + real video" versions? It would be win-win-win, for stills shooters, for video/convergence folks and for Canon.



Very few technical reasons to do so, particularly for a mirrorless camera, as there is a convergence of needs between a good mirrorless camera and a good video/photo camera. Both benefit from a sensor with a fast readout speed, which is Canon's main problem right now. 

Basically, a good mirrorless camera naturally is a good video/photo hybrid.


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## Isaacheus (May 28, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Again, am ot interested in video capture myself. But 4k recording definitely is "crippled" on the EOS M50. True, it is a lower level, comparatively inexpensive camera, not a hi-end one. But up to now it is the ONLY Canon EOS camera that has 4k video capture (except 1Dc). And by 2018 standards 4k on the EOS M50 sems to be - "underwhelming". or "crippled".
> 
> Things are not necessarily better on all comptetive products. Similarly priced and positioned new Fujifilm X-T100 for example has 4k recording only at 15fps. i'd call that "why even bother", "useless" or "more than just crippled".
> 
> ...



Don't the 5dmk4 and 1dx2 have 4k also?


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## fullstop (May 28, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> Don't the 5dmk4 and 1dx2 have 4k also?



thanks, yes. correct! Missed those 2. 
EOS M50 is only mirrorless EOS camera to date with 4k video capture.


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## zim (May 28, 2018)

fullstop said:


> so instead of implementing such cr*ppy video, why not split models into "stills only" and "stills + real video" versions?





fullstop said:


> That said, EOS M50 is the first EOS M camera to meet my personal criteria to upgrade from my currently used EOS M 1st gen: viewfinder, compact form factor, much better AF, much better IQ and (relatively) "inexpensive". So I am going to get one. For "stills only", of course.



I think you just answered your own question there


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## fullstop (May 28, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> Basically, a good mirrorless camera naturally is a good video/photo hybrid.



I see it differently. While MILCs certainly are a much better start for a video(-enabled) camera than DSLRs, video capture has requirements that are quite different and to no small degree count-productive to optimum stills image capture. 

* sensor - video needs to be optimized for "long time operation with lots of heat generated". Not needed to that extent for stills, possibly counter-productive. 
* DIGIC/s - all that development money and those computing resources dedicated to video capture / encoding and transferring massive streams of data for extended periods of time. Could be saved or applied towards (even) better stills image processing and (even) more powerful AF systems ... e.g. (even) better tracking or Eye Control AF v2.0 8)
* body shell cluttered with unneeded like mic holes and connectors like mic, headphone etc. Or that ominous red "record video" button! Could all be omitted for stills, would save some cost and make it a bit easier to weather-seal body. Or camera could be equipped with a second dial or a BFF AF button instead. And - most importantly - it would reduce the risk to inadvertently hit that darn "record video" button.  
* menu system filled with video-related stuff, not needed for stills shooting. 
* more costly quality assurance and warranty repairs - video recording capability needs to be QCed in addition to stills and more repairs result from extreme stress and heat system is under when recording (4k) video for a half hour with no break ... 

And certainly some more items why there should be also (at least some) "pure stills" MILCs and "convergence" generally only be made available at extra cost. 8)


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## fullstop (May 28, 2018)

zim said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > That said, EOS M50 is the first EOS M camera to meet my personal criteria to upgrade from my currently used EOS M 1st gen: viewfinder, compact form factor, much better AF, much better IQ and (relatively) "inexpensive". So I am going to get one. For "stills only", of course.
> ...



not really.  

Yes, I'll get M50. But *despite* of the (crippled) video stuff in it. I would prefer to get it for (even) less money without video-capture in it. 

Generally I'd like to be able to customize configure [more modular] cameras, like e.g. you could customize Dell computers "back in the good old days". Which processor, which graphics capability, how much system memory, how much/what type of mass storage [HDD, SSD] etc ... I'd max my camera out on stills and AF performance and minimize it on video. Mirrorless, all electronic, solid-state cameras would offer so many options for a more modular, smarter, more customizable approach to cameras. Less different models, more customized versions. 

I don't like that all camera makers are following that "old, totally inflexible consumer electronics/appliance" product strategy. While it is to be expected from "genetically engrained CE companies" like Sony or Panasonic - Canon, Nikon, Fujifilm, Leica etc. could and should really offer smarter kit and be a step above and ahead of this "microwave oven, TV set and washing machine" mindset.


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## huaisheng (May 28, 2018)

Introduction of Huaisheng


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## BillB (May 28, 2018)

fullstop said:


> zim said:
> 
> 
> > fullstop said:
> ...



How do you know that it would cost Canon less per unit to design and manufacture a video free version of the M50 when the design costs and the costs of the second production line are taken into consideration? How many units of each design would Canon have to make of each design to come out ahead, or if there is any break even point at all? Would you buy a video free M50 if it cost more than the current model? I get it that you would like a video free M50, and that you would like it to be cheaper than the current M50 model, but you haven't convinced me that you will be victimized because you are forced to subsidize persons who want video in their M50's.


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## fullstop (May 28, 2018)

BillB said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > zim said:
> ...



all the video-related elements i listed cost extra. Stills only shooters are cross-subsidizing video features in cameras. 

Simple logic is enough to understand this, one does not need to have (confidential, unavailable) detailed (cost) accounting information. 

If Canon can make 6 or 7 different Rebel models at a time, it does not seem to be cost-prohibitive to (instead) produce fewer cameras, but some in 2 different versions (stills / video+stills ) in parallel.


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## brad-man (May 28, 2018)

huaisheng said:


> Introduction of Huaisheng



Hello Huaisheng. Welcome to the forum!


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## transpo1 (May 28, 2018)

Durf said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > Why is there so much talk of the M50? That is comparing what is probably the cheapest 4k ILC with what with a full frame video-centric enthusiast/semiprofessional offering.
> ...



If it were selling like crazy, it wouldn't be discounted by $200 two months after release at B&H...actually, it's shocking to see how discounted the Canon 6D and 5DIV models are as well, both by $400 dollars respectively...and that's *with* a free battery grip. On the Nikon end, the D750 is discounted by $500. 

What this tells me is, although Canon and Nikon still rule among professional photographers, they are seeing *steep* competition from Sony, with the A7III being the #1 Top Seller at B&H. The video competition from the GH5/s line must be taking a toll as well.


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## Talys (May 28, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> What this tells me is, although Canon and Nikon still rule among professional photographers, they are seeing *steep* competition from Sony, with the A7III being the #1 Top Seller at B&H. The video competition from the GH5/s line must be taking a toll as well.



Could that possibly be attributed to the A73 being the latest release? :

By the way Sony A7R3 and A73 were discounted very shortly after release too; it was just a disguised discount. You had to bring something to trade in. My friend took a very old -- and very broken, as in cracked -- EFS kit lens and got $300 off of his A7R3 a couple months after launch; a similar offer was made a month or two after A73 (any ILC body or lens), with increasing rebates for A73, A7R3, A9.


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## Durf (May 28, 2018)

Talys said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > What this tells me is, although Canon and Nikon still rule among professional photographers, they are seeing *steep* competition from Sony, with the A7III being the #1 Top Seller at B&H. The video competition from the GH5/s line must be taking a toll as well.
> ...



Personally I don't believe that a discount automatically means the camera is not selling well, it could actually be that they want them to sell even better and to get as many in to peoples hands as possible. What better way is there to get more customers using a product and to prepare them for possibly wanting to upgrade to the next "better features and improved version"?

In my opinion the M50 is just a baby and a teaser to what's coming and that most people buying it will happily pay a little more for a better version (M60) or even a way more expensive FF mirror-less down the road.


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## Ozarker (May 28, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Durf said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...



Don't confuse MSRP, release price, and regular price. Just because something is "regularlly $XXXX" and is now "$xxxx" doesn't mean there's a discount. It only means somebody took advantage of initial excitement about a product.

BTW: Sony is anything but "steep" competition. Sony hasn't got the market share to be anything of the sort.


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## transpo1 (May 28, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > Durf said:
> ...



Not yet in overall sales but they have the buzz and excitement and over time, that will lead to increased sales.


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## BillB (May 28, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



Or so Sony hopes


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## transpo1 (May 28, 2018)

BillB said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > CanonFanBoy said:
> ...



Correct. And they are slowly eroding the key lens gap (still a long ways to go). But as someone who has loved my 5DIII and 24-105/4 combination for world travel for photo and video, to hear from Lensrentals that the Sony 24-105 blows the Canon equivalent away was a big enticement. And, I suspect, will be for others, too.


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## Ozarker (May 28, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



Buzz and excitement? How do we measure that? How do we know that? Easy. Sales. That's is the true measure, not people (bloggers) going in circles repeating it. Not forum fanboys who already own the thing. No. New owners. The buying public. Sony has an abysmal market share. The buzz? Maybe when at the consumer electronics show in Las Vegas, Nevada... but that buzz isn't from their product.


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## Talys (May 29, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Buzz and excitement? How do we measure that? How do we know that? Easy. Sales. That's is the true measure, not people (bloggers) going in circles repeating it. Not forum fanboys who already own the thing. No. New owners. The buying public. Sony has an abysmal market share. The buzz? Maybe when at the consumer electronics show in Las Vegas, Nevada... but that buzz isn't from their product.



Buzz and excitement is measured by potential revenue for youtubers and photography websites on one hand, and the appeal to those who equate "different" with "better" on the other. In the short term, sometimes it translates into sales, and sometimes it doesn't.

But ultimately, sales is determined by how good a tool something is. If a camera is a really good money-making tool or a very satisfying hobby tool, people will buy more of them and invest more into the system; and third parties will make more and more accessories for it.

Sony definitely deserves some credit for being first to full frame mirrorless ILC, and for sure, that deserves some buzz and excitement. On the other hand, in many ways, to me, it feels that partly Sony is first because they were willing to go to production with iterations of technology that feel unfinished. Also, I think that Sony has a long way to go before it's competitive as a professional or enthusiast tool as a replacement for 1DXII. 

It might be a nice thing to have as a novelty, but being limited to only the most popular consumer focal length lenses and having handicapped autofocus speed (especially with extenders), and some odd quirks, in my opinion, limit it to a few specific professional settings at which they excel.


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## Durf (May 29, 2018)

Talys said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Buzz and excitement? How do we measure that? How do we know that? Easy. Sales. That's is the true measure, not people (bloggers) going in circles repeating it. Not forum fanboys who already own the thing. No. New owners. The buying public. Sony has an abysmal market share. The buzz? Maybe when at the consumer electronics show in Las Vegas, Nevada... but that buzz isn't from their product.
> ...



The M50 starter camera is quite impressive in my opinion.

It'll be extremely interesting to see Canon's semi pro and flagship high end pro FF Mirrorless camera's when they are released. I suspect they'll be the top shelf #1 FF mirrorless cameras in the industry.


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## Daan Stam (May 29, 2018)

a 2018/2019 Specifically specified video focused camera but no 4k 60p?


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## HarryFilm (May 29, 2018)

stevelee said:


> BillB said:
> 
> 
> > Be that as it may, they decided to go with "crippled" 4K and decent 1080.
> ...



---

To me, "Crippled 4K" is ANY 4K camera that does NOT support a full-standard DCI (Digital Cinema Iniiatives) 1.89:1 aspect ratio 4096 by 2160 pixels at 60 fps at 10 bits or above per colour channel RAW format. Right Now Only the Canon C200, C300, C700, Arri, Sony F55/F65/Venice, Panasonic Varicam and Red cameras when the appropriate BIOS/Firmware is installed or when you attach a higher end Codex/Atmos SDI recorder to the backs can capture at that specification.

The Canon M50 is NOT CRIPPLED in terms of general consumer-use 4k imagery! it's actually HOW you shoot on it that will make ALL the difference! I suggest you set the shutter on the Canon M50 to 1/48th of a second. Set your ISO to 1600 and use an 85mm Canon or Art Sigma series prime using looser/wider shots and put your iris at F4 and use the highest 4K bitrate possible and you are Good to Go!

Load that 24 fps 4K Canon M50 footage into BlackMagic Resolve and Boost your shadows by 10% to 15%, increase midtones by 5% to 10%, REDUCE your highlights by 5% to 10% to retrieve details in clouds and sky, increase contrast by between 5% to 15% to your taste and FINALLY boost your saturation by about 10% to your taste....As a last item, depending upon your aesthetics, I would usually add a 1.5 pixel to 2 pixel wide UNSHARP MASK to sharpen the edges of on-screen objects. -- But that is of course YOUR TASTE -- You don't HAVE TO DO IT --- but it WILL make your footage SEEM sharper! NOW you have truly cinematic footage on ANY ONE of your Canon DSLR's! 

The Canon M50's 4K imagery is PERFECTLY FINE for vlogs and low-budget filmmaking and documentary production if you can shoot at 1/48th of a shutter speed on a higher end 50mm or 85mm prime lens at around F4!

ONE KEY THING if you are shooting at dusk or at lower light levels....ADD MORE DIFFUSE FILL LIGHT !!!! Tape four or more of the BRIGHT WHITE LED BARS you can buy at any Dollar Plus store to a broomstick and FILL IN your onset lighting! Put diffusion spun and/or colour correction gels on the cheap LED's if you have to! That doesn't cost more than $25 for the dollar-store LED light bars and the extra packs of Double-A batteries!

See our examples below of what we did in JUST cropping and colour correction for a typical 4k production (we centre cropped for storage space and lens usage reasons!)


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## fullstop (May 29, 2018)

sorry, but i don't like the look of either image.


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## bergstrom (May 30, 2018)

I just want a canon mirrorless full frame with ef mount that will compete with the sony a7iii. If they're not making that, then I'm not interested.


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## 3kramd5 (May 30, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> To me, "Crippled 4K" is ANY 4K camera that does NOT support a full-standard DCI (Digital Cinema Iniiatives) 1.89:1 aspect ratio 4096 by 2160 pixels at 60 fps at 10 bits or above per colour channel RAW format. Right Now Only the Canon C200, C300, C700, Arri, Sony F55/F65/Venice, Panasonic Varicam and Red cameras when the appropriate BIOS/Firmware is installed or when you attach a higher end Codex/Atmos SDI recorder to the backs can capture at that specification.
> 
> The Canon M50 is NOT CRIPPLED...


 heh


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## HarryFilm (May 30, 2018)

fullstop said:


> sorry, but i don't like the look of either image.



---

If you right-click (if using MS Windows) and select "View Image" from the popup menu you will be able to see the ENTIRE full resolution image of both video frames. The differences in sharpness and general detail between the upper and lower photos is quite remarkable. This is due to Canon cameras filming in "Log Mode" (depending upon model since the M50 doesn't have true logarithmic stretching like the Canon 1Dc) which REQUIRES you to do colour grading BEFORE you upload footage to Youtube or Vimeo. 

You just can't take un-retouched imagery from the M50 or 1Dc or 1Dx or 5D cameras and upload them right after shooting! The images just look dull and dark grey! YOU MUST colour grade using a program like BM Resolve OR use the simple level boosts I described earlier in your Adobe Premiere or FCP video editors. 

Some people have complained my grades are too saturated but in my personal opinion, think the high colour saturation works better for the type of industrial footage we record. The head honchos complained the videos looked DULL when I did the Hollywood-style "Filmic Look" so I gave them what they wanted. Highly sharp, well saturated video! This is to each person's tastes and what works for me will NOT work for YOU! ....BUT....keep saving colour grading templates and COMPARE THEM until you find a look you like!

In the bottom photo, when you do a 100% full resolution view, you can still see the VERY THIN POWERLINES running across ABOVE the two bridges. That shows just how SHARP almost ANY Canon camera is in terms of absolute resolving power! 
And these examples are simple VIDEO FRAME GRABS which are nowhere NEAR what a still photo's sharpness and overall image quality from the same camera would have been! In fact, I've been thinking that for fast-action sports and action imagery, my 4k frame grabs running at 24 fps or 60 fps from various Canons are good enough for WEB-oriented prints if properly colour graded! I can CHOOSE the frames I want and just upload my favourites! 

A Canon M50 would make a GREAT sports shooter camera that works for web-use-only 24 fps video frame grabs! If you resize your 4k images DOWN to the widely used 1920 by 1080 pixel windows used on most of today's consumer monitors and TV screens, and SHARPEN the image after colour grading, there is a perfect opportunity to get the BEST well-timed frame since your images are from a 24 fps source!

The general point I am trying to make is that the Canon M50 is NOT a truly "Crippled 4K" camera! It is PERFECT for the filmmaker student, vlogger and high school newspaper photographer who needs an ALMOST-professional camera with good-enough 4k Video and decent-quality stills. AND....since the majority of buyers will be Mom/Dad buying it for Junior's Birthday/Christmas present and/or gifted by Grandma/Grandpa for their off-to-college film student grandkids, I think Canon will sell a lot of these! I think it will encroach on the sales of all Rebel series within the next 6 months! 4k for that under-1k U.S. kit-price? What a Deal!

Anyways...Canon has at least FIVE late-stage test camera platforms in-the-wild right now based upon my rumour mill sources...by Photokina time, probably TWO will have been introduced! and ONE will be Fully 4k Mirrorless and LIKELY at a full 10-bits 60 fps video and 10 fps+ full-resolution 24 megapixel+ stills burst rate!


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## fullstop (May 30, 2018)

@Harry: thx for the explanations! I shall avoid the term "crippled 4k" for M50 from now on.


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## unfocused (May 30, 2018)

Is it too much to hope that the lying b.s. infused Harry has been reborn as someone who actually has something positive to contribute?


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## 3kramd5 (May 30, 2018)

fullstop said:


> sorry, but i don't like the look of either image.



The original, however, is better.


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## HarryFilm (May 30, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > sorry, but i don't like the look of either image.
> ...



--- 

While I actually do agree with your comment about the top image being "better" in terms of it having a more filmic look, the head honchos wanted it "Bright and Punchy" and on a large 200 inch Sony projector it actually looks pretty good because the project darkens the image a bit "reviving" that filmic look!

After that, one this that REALLY IMPRESSED ME was that on the Canon 1Dc, the 5Dmk4, 1Dxmk2 and the M50 and even the Rebel series, I definitely note how much RESOLVING POWER those cameras have! The fact, that you can even see the VERY THIN power lines, read minute details such as small text, and even basic lighting levels that can be stretched quite nicely in post-production signifies just how far video has come on DSLR-like cameras in the last five years!

If you're on a budget, then the M50 is fine for you! Just remember to light well and use a DECENT PRIME LENS (I personally like the Sigma Art Series for their price and sharpness!). For higher budget video, then the C200/300 and C700 DEFINITELY can compete with anything Sony, Panasonic, Fuji or Arri has. (We have lots of Sony and Arri gear too!)

Of course, out of the Canon and OTHER brand cameras noted above I actually like the Canon C700 best because it's cheaper than the Arri, it has well-priced cinema primes AND I get my 60 fps DCI 4k in GLOBAL SHUTTER MODE which is a very big deal for me! At 60 fps, I shoot at 120th/sec for shutter speed to get SHARP action shots and allows me to get 4K frame grabs for print and web!


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## Uneternal (May 31, 2018)

1. We’re told that a full frame mirrorless will be coming in September.

No big news. Since that is the only big exhibition before Xmas sale, it's the very last option to keep customers from jumping on the Sony wagon.

2. Canon’s new mirrorless will NOT be part of the EOS system, the focus will be on video.

The last thing Canon would do is sacrifice their super expensive cinema EOS range. And also not the marketing name EOS. That would be a really silly move. 

3. Think EOS 5D Mark IV, but mirrorless.

Thats also nothing new. Since years Canon is using old tech and puts it in newer, lower tier cameras (e.g. 6D which was essentially a 5D2).

4. 4K @ 30/25/24 FPS

You don't need to be a genius to figure Canon would not put a 4K 60p mode and also not an outdated HD mode again. Especially since they already have one 4K camera out.


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## tarntyke (May 31, 2018)

My usually unreliable source has sent me some images of a prototype of the next FF mirrorless camera. It may be used in BBC's 4K/uhd coverage of the World Cup, so look out for it. The final version will be released on completion of a working codec by HarryFilm. My printout of the email was smudged. The release looks like 31st February, but the year was illegible.


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## fullstop (May 31, 2018)

hehe! 8)


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## melgross (Jun 1, 2018)

Durf said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



It’s a good indicator. And the bigger the discount, the worse sales are.


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## stevelee (Jun 1, 2018)

Depends upon many things. Discounts are generally taken into account in choosing list prices.

But, yes, when discounts get into the 50% range, that can mean sales have not been great. Much below that, and you can't tell. Some of that varies by industry. Grocers often have BOGO.


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## Ozarker (Jun 2, 2018)

unfocused said:


> Is it too much to hope that the lying b.s. infused Harry has been reborn as someone who actually has something positive to contribute?



"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." Are you really going to allow yourself to get lured in?


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## Ozarker (Jun 2, 2018)

melgross said:


> Durf said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...



Marketing: "Let's arbitrarily set the MSRP (Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price) at $3,600. The gearheads will jump all over it for a couple of months. Then as initial excitement calms, we can offer a rebate so the consumer feels like he was smart for waiting. Then after the excitement calms a little more, we can allow the retailers to cut the price a little AND we can offer rebates. By then people will feel real smart about waiting. In this way we can grab a little money beyond our projected profit margin."

"And let's remove the rebates now and then so that the rebate seems like something special."

There never really was a discount. It's marketing to different segments of the market. It's feel good marketing.

Years ago (30+), everytime Sears ran a sale in Jackson, Tennessee the store staff would spend the night changing price tags. They'd mark up the price and then you'd get the "10% discount" off that marked up price when you came in for the "sale" the next day.

There never was a sale.


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